Ahtman wrote: The length of the film has been released and is 180 minutes so hit the restroom up before starting it if you need to.
Or just take an empty bottle in with you.
Turns out there's only 30 minutes of new footage. 20 minutes of time travel setup, then you watch the entirety of Infinity War with the last 10 minutes changed.
Easy E wrote: So do we have a pretty comprehensive list of characters snapped vs. unsnapped anywhere?
I'm not sure about a list, but recently released character posted comfirm a lot. Characters in color survived, Characters in black-n-white did not. Valkyrie survived
That's a good point, really. At some point these MCU movies are going to disappear from Netflix in favore of... Mouseflix, or whatever it's going to be called.
Yep, Disney is going to have a dominating streaming service if you package Star Wars, MCU, and almost every animated childrens' film....it'll be potent if they price it right.
I'm pretty much over streaming services. I'll just buy DVDs of anything I want to own at this point. And since I make it to few movies in the theater, that's not a lot of movies.*
*However, I have this psychological condition where I will happily buy a cart full of Best of the Worst grade movies out of a bargain bin.
For streaming, it just needs a variety of content.
At the moment, I’m getting more out of Amazon Prime than Netflix. So when Disney’s Service launches, Netflix might just find itself one subscriber short. I want to see the MCU and Star Wars gubbins.
NowTV remains for the time being. That gives me more traditional telly, such as Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. It’s also one I can subscribed to seasonally.
I’m convinced streaming is the future. But how new players entering the game will affect it, I don’t know. It’s main advantage now is that it’s cheap. If I end up having six or seven separate subs going? At the current prices, said cheapness soon evaporates.
Lance845 wrote: Captain Marvel I believe was confirmed to be the last Marvel movie to appear on Netflix. Maybe I am remembering that wrong but I think it's right.
Pretty sure that I read the opposite, that Captain Marvel will be the first one not to be on Netflix, and that Disney is willing to take the loss in revenues for not releasing it earlier on Netflix to wait and release it on their own network.
Ouze wrote: That's a good point, really. At some point these MCU movies are going to disappear from Netflix in favore of... Mouseflix, or whatever it's going to be called.
At the moment, I’m getting more out of Amazon Prime than Netflix. So when Disney’s Service launches, Netflix might just find itself one subscriber short. I want to see the MCU and Star Wars gubbins.
NowTV remains for the time being. That gives me more traditional telly, such as Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. It’s also one I can subscribed to seasonally.
I’m convinced streaming is the future. But how new players entering the game will affect it, I don’t know. It’s main advantage now is that it’s cheap. If I end up having six or seven separate subs going? At the current prices, said cheapness soon evaporates.
I am liking Amazon prime as well.
It feels like Netflix is becoming more like its own HBO type network, with its own shows and movies.
I share in the streaming issue. I like it it, but I am not paying for new ones. I am not paying for Disney, CBS, ESPN etc etc. I could care less if Disney moves to its own network as I don't watch the MCU movies and regret wasting the time watching TLJ-and will not make that mistake again.
At the moment, I’m getting more out of Amazon Prime than Netflix. So when Disney’s Service launches, Netflix might just find itself one subscriber short. I want to see the MCU and Star Wars gubbins.
NowTV remains for the time being. That gives me more traditional telly, such as Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. It’s also one I can subscribed to seasonally.
I’m convinced streaming is the future. But how new players entering the game will affect it, I don’t know. It’s main advantage now is that it’s cheap. If I end up having six or seven separate subs going? At the current prices, said cheapness soon evaporates.
I think there is still plenty of space to screw it up with "cabalization"* And we may see a Video stores/RedBox resurgence.
As for Endgame, I have heard a rumor it will be 3 hours long...... perhaps they need to add an intermission? I re-watched old Stan K's Spartacus lately and was tickled by the intermission.
*= Like Balkanization, but for Media instead of Nations!
Ouze wrote: That's a good point, really. At some point these MCU movies are going to disappear from Netflix in favore of... Mouseflix, or whatever it's going to be called.
Isn't that Hulu?
No. With the fox deal they aquired a large share of hulu. But theyvare releasing their own this year. Disney +. Its guuna have the mandalorian (live action sw series) and a few mini series featuring mcu characters (winter soldier and falcon, scarlet witch and vision, loki confirmed so far).
At the moment, I’m getting more out of Amazon Prime than Netflix. So when Disney’s Service launches, Netflix might just find itself one subscriber short. I want to see the MCU and Star Wars gubbins.
NowTV remains for the time being. That gives me more traditional telly, such as Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. It’s also one I can subscribed to seasonally.
I’m convinced streaming is the future. But how new players entering the game will affect it, I don’t know. It’s main advantage now is that it’s cheap. If I end up having six or seven separate subs going? At the current prices, said cheapness soon evaporates.
I am liking Amazon prime as well.
It feels like Netflix is becoming more like its own HBO type network, with its own shows and movies.
I share in the streaming issue. I like it it, but I am not paying for new ones. I am not paying for Disney, CBS, ESPN etc etc. I could care less if Disney moves to its own network as I don't watch the MCU movies and regret wasting the time watching TLJ-and will not make that mistake again.
If this disintegration of the streaming services continues, I think I'll only subscribe to one at a time. Wait for the complete season of the Star Wars show to be available then sign up to Disney for a month. Cancel that, subscribe to Netflix for a month for something there, over to Amazon for American Gods, etc.
I'm perfectly happy to just... not subscribe to anyone and miss the shows. If they're going to play these kinda of games, I've got plenty of other ways to burn time and money.
Frankly most of these movies are not worth it to me to pay subscriber fees for. If I am interested I will rent it. Otherwise why subscribe? I don't subscribe to HBO etc. now, why would I subscribe to them? Its just a different flavor of the same. 3/4 of the time I wonder why I even pay for Netflix and once I get through watching some old comedy series thats going to be a real question. My kids sure don't watch them much. They don't even have TVs.
When Disney offers streaming for everything Star Wars, Marvel, and Disney movies...I’m in. No joke. If I can one-stop shop everything, that’s golden. My wife and I like Disney movies together, I like my Star Wars stuff, and I binge everything Marvel. That channel is a definite yes for us. And will likely replace Netflix.
At the moment subscribing to all streaming services Netflix, Amazon, Disney wahtever, BBC whatever - will still be cheaper than Sky - I have all of them at the moment but seriously thinking baout dropping sky.
At the moment, I’m getting more out of Amazon Prime than Netflix. So when Disney’s Service launches, Netflix might just find itself one subscriber short. I want to see the MCU and Star Wars gubbins.
NowTV remains for the time being. That gives me more traditional telly, such as Game of Thrones and Walking Dead. It’s also one I can subscribed to seasonally.
I’m convinced streaming is the future. But how new players entering the game will affect it, I don’t know. It’s main advantage now is that it’s cheap. If I end up having six or seven separate subs going? At the current prices, said cheapness soon evaporates.
Each subscription also loses value every time some content creator pulls their stuff into their own service. Netflix is a shadow of its former glory, and Amazon Prime wants me to pay per movie rental like some kind of Blockbuster ghost in the machine. If Disney, Warner, CBS and Apple yank all of their stuff and each ask for a subscription rate for their modest collections that is only reasonable for a full library, I can't see customers paying. Just drop them all until they make it worth our time again.
PS: Your post seems to imply you are paying for Netflix. I am confused.
Ouze wrote: That's a good point, really. At some point these MCU movies are going to disappear from Netflix in favore of... Mouseflix, or whatever it's going to be called.
Isn't that Hulu?
Last I heard, the Star Wars, Marvel and Disney stuff will be on Disney Plus while the rest of what Disney owns will be on Hulu. You'll have the privilege of paying for two separate subscription for access to the Disney library.
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Voss wrote: I'm perfectly happy to just... not subscribe to anyone and miss the shows. If they're going to play these kinda of games, I've got plenty of other ways to burn time and money.
Don't have any of them, what with my job putting me offshore for weeks on end with nothing much to do with no internet it just makes more sense to just dive into the high seas experience completely, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats, errr, binge what I want to see off a hard drive.
Then when I'm home I get to spend time with the kids and the wife and indulge in other, more rewarding pastimes.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Got my tickets for a Friday night showing! Couldn't do Thursday because my wife's a teacher and that's school musical night.
Dinner first, or just the movie?
And with a 3 hour run time, maybe *don't* hydrate well before the show starts!
When you get older, you're taking a show break regardless. Gettin old aint for the soft!
EDIT: Can Doctor Strange time travel? If so why doesn't he go back in time with the crew and stop Thanos when he didn't have all the stones?
Two reasons.
#1, he was one of the victims of the 'snap'. So he's dead for the moment.
#2, he time-traveled via the Eye of (however you spell it), which turned out to be the Time Stone... and is now implanted in the Infinity Gauntlet and is in the posession of Thanos.
Same here - it is the first movie I've ever bought advance tickets for this far in advance!
Going on the Saturday after release, early in the day, and decidedly not using the internet or social media from when it is released until I see the movie!
I was planning to see it on the following Tuesday. Looks like I can see it as early as 9:15 in the am. Cool.
Is there any reason I should see it in IMAX? I don't think I know what that even is.
warhead01 wrote: I was planning to see it on the following Tuesday. Looks like I can see it as early as 9:15 in the am. Cool.
Is there any reason I should see it in IMAX? I don't think I know what that even is.
Be aware its reportedly over three hours. IIRC but its really hard to get out of your seat for a pit stop in an Imax. I personally can't sit with my knees bent like that for more than an hour at a time.
warhead01 wrote: I was planning to see it on the following Tuesday. Looks like I can see it as early as 9:15 in the am. Cool.
Is there any reason I should see it in IMAX? I don't think I know what that even is.
Be aware its reportedly over three hours. IIRC but its really hard to get out of your seat for a pit stop in an Imax. I personally can't sit with my knees bent like that for more than an hour at a time.
I'll have to ask my friends what's best I guess. The local theater we have is very inexpensive and I guess like a basic theater. But I'll be house sitting for a few days and they have a fancy movie theater up there. The last two movies I saw in theaters were the last Mad Max(locally) and before that predators (what ever year it was that came out) but that was in a whole other state.
I'm just lucky to have the time to go to the movies at all.
So bad news is I am not going to be able to find a ride to watch Captain Marvel. I just work the times my buddies have available so I am just missing out.
Good news is I will have a car by the time this comes out.(Yay taxes and savings!)
How much am I missing by not seeing Captain Marvel? Also please no spoilers on that.
Dreadwinter wrote: How much am I missing by not seeing Captain Marvel? Also please no spoilers on that.
Probably nothing, honestly. HSM is about right I would say. You saw she was exposed to an alien power source and became functionally Superman in the trailers.
You're missing out on her personal origin story, but not how she came to join the Avengers or how she locks into the current MCU, neither of which have yet been explored.
There is a short mid credits scene that ties CM into Infinity War but it's very minor and you're not going to be confused without it.
And chances are that end credits scene from Captain Marvel will be in Endgame, much like the end credits scene from Ant-Man was in Civil War.
Basically Captain Marvel got her powers from a combination of the Space Stone and Kree blood. And she's basically unstoppable (things that fly into her by accident die). Should be interesting to see if Thanos stands a chance against her.
Thanos put Hulk down like he was nothing, Carol wouldn’t fare any better. She’s got flight and ranged attacks, but isnt as strong. Sure she got to look super bad arsed in her own movie, but she was only fighting non-powered individuals and spaceships. I imagine her role will be in knowing space and the factions out there to help the Avengers track down where Thanos went.
AduroT wrote: Thanos put Hulk down like he was nothing, Carol wouldn’t fare any better. She’s got flight and ranged attacks, but isnt as strong. Sure she got to look super bad arsed in her own movie, but she was only fighting non-powered individuals and spaceships. I imagine her role will be in knowing space and the factions out there to help the Avengers track down where Thanos went.
Things that flew into her by accident died instantly. She flew through a Kree cruiser like a white-hot knife through melted butter.
She is the MCU's Unstoppable Force. Do you view Thanos as the MCU's immovable object?
Dreadwinter wrote: So bad news is I am not going to be able to find a ride to watch Captain Marvel. I just work the times my buddies have available so I am just missing out.
Good news is I will have a car by the time this comes out.(Yay taxes and savings!)
How much am I missing by not seeing Captain Marvel? Also please no spoilers on that.
You wont need it but its one of the best marvel films to date
warhead01 wrote: I was planning to see it on the following Tuesday. Looks like I can see it as early as 9:15 in the am. Cool.
Is there any reason I should see it in IMAX? I don't think I know what that even is.
Might be worth it?
Remember the old pan and scan loss of screen stuff that used to happen all the time, 'back in the day', when the old Kaiju movies were shown on broadcast TV?
(No dating myself there at all)
I've seen some stuff online about how much 'more' there is to see of this film in IMAX format.
But it won't be as if you're missing scenes or anything - it just might overall 'look' a bit better.
Of course, you'll pay a bit 'more' for the privilege!
So, no, not necessary but possibly worth it if you live near an IMAX theater and it isn't too much more per ticket.
AduroT wrote: Thanos put Hulk down like he was nothing, Carol wouldn’t fare any better. She’s got flight and ranged attacks, but isnt as strong. Sure she got to look super bad arsed in her own movie, but she was only fighting non-powered individuals and spaceships. I imagine her role will be in knowing space and the factions out there to help the Avengers track down where Thanos went.
I think I disagree, at least as presented in the MCU.
Spoiler:
Compare when the Hulk was rampaging on the Helicarrier, and when Captain Marvel literally punched through a Kree warship like it was cardboard.
I'm not saying she can necessarily beat Thanos, because that would be a pretty boring movie among other things. But I think Captain Marvel is significantly stronger than the MCU Hulk, who seems substantially less powerful than he is in the comics.
Lance845 wrote: Carol hasnt done anything yet that thor hasnt also been capable of.
Didn't Thor effectively one shot Thanos at the end of Infinity War?
Just think, if instead of relying on guys with spears, they had relied on a Marine Battalion with a little artillery or air support. They would have stopped Thanos's troopers cold..
AduroT wrote: Meh. The marines would only be shooting little bits of lead. Those spears are Vibranium. Much better.
Lots and lots and lots of little bits of lead. Far more than single shot spears from guys who's plan turned into "lets charge the dogs with teeth!" And mortar rounds. And artillery.
Dreadwinter wrote: So bad news is I am not going to be able to find a ride to watch Captain Marvel. I just work the times my buddies have available so I am just missing out.
Good news is I will have a car by the time this comes out.(Yay taxes and savings!)
How much am I missing by not seeing Captain Marvel? Also please no spoilers on that.
Not much that will be vital to Endgame. You already know she'll be a real powerhouse, more raw power than even Iron Man, the Hulk, or Thor; just in a different way. She's a bit of a one-trick pony, though; she's tough, flies, and has very powerful energy attacks. That's... pretty much the whole character. Somewhat more versatile than the Hulk, but not as much as Iron Man or Thor, and about as subtle as they are too. Perhaps the only really important detail that should be spoilered is just where her powers ultimately come from and how it relates to Thanos, which could become relevant in Endgame.
The character comes across very... I hate to use the cliche and call it wooden, but it fits here. I don't know if that's the actress' normal operating mode, or if it's just for this movie. It can be explained away by saying the character lost her memory and then was trained by a guy pushing her to suppress her emotions. If that is the case, hopefully Endgame will let her be more natural and less wooden.
Overall the movie is generally entertaining despite Brie Larson being pretty wooden most of the movie. She does seem to loosen up for a bit in the middle though. A fair amount of comedy... which sadly is mostly at Nick Fury's expense. It's like the director saw Fury as being just another token comic relief black guy, which is my one serious complaint about the film.
I don't think you win an Oscar and a Golden Globe by being wooden, so I'd say it's clearly the role not the actor.
To be honest, I think it'll be her attitude and personality that are her important contributions, not punching things (well, I imagine there'll be some of that too ). The point of her movie was being the underdog and coming through despite the expectation and criticisms of everyone around her; that's the sort of thing that the demoralised Avengers will need.
Lance845 wrote: They had a war machine. Remember how super effwctive it was?
Now imagine a battalion of Marines in them, with circling Apaches and circling A-10s.
I hate to say it because I'm a HUGE fan of the Apaches and Warthogs... but in this circumstance aircraft are dead meat. The artillery support could be invaluable, though.
But it wouldn't be comic-book enough. I mean, you could argue luring them out to White Sands in New Mexico and just nuking them would be far more effective...but pretty boring when you get down to it.
Lance845 wrote: They had a war machine. Remember how super effwctive it was?
Now imagine a battalion of Marines in them, with circling Apaches and circling A-10s.
I hate to say it because I'm a HUGE fan of the Apaches and Warthogs... but in this circumstance aircraft are dead meat. The artillery support could be invaluable, though.
But it wouldn't be comic-book enough. I mean, you could argue luring them out to White Sands in New Mexico and just nuking them would be far more effective...but pretty boring when you get down to it.
Yea...sorry. I got off point.
But am I correct in that Thor effectively one shot Thanos at the end?
Lance845 wrote: They had a war machine. Remember how super effwctive it was?
Now imagine a battalion of Marines in them, with circling Apaches and circling A-10s.
I hate to say it because I'm a HUGE fan of the Apaches and Warthogs... but in this circumstance aircraft are dead meat. The artillery support could be invaluable, though.
But it wouldn't be comic-book enough. I mean, you could argue luring them out to White Sands in New Mexico and just nuking them would be far more effective...but pretty boring when you get down to it.
Yea...sorry. I got off point.
But am I correct in that Thor effectively one shot Thanos at the end?
Ah... yes and no.
He does deliver what should be a mortal wound, but not instantly so, thus giving Thanos time to activate the appropriate Infinity Gem and undo it.
Had Thor gone either for Thanos' head (for the instant kill) or arm (to separate Thanos from the Infinity Gauntlet) it would have been a win for the good guys. A costly win, but still a win.
Lance845 wrote: They had a war machine. Remember how super effwctive it was?
Now imagine a battalion of Marines in them, with circling Apaches and circling A-10s.
I hate to say it because I'm a HUGE fan of the Apaches and Warthogs... but in this circumstance aircraft are dead meat. The artillery support could be invaluable, though.
But it wouldn't be comic-book enough. I mean, you could argue luring them out to White Sands in New Mexico and just nuking them would be far more effective...but pretty boring when you get down to it.
Yea...sorry. I got off point.
But am I correct in that Thor effectively one shot Thanos at the end?
Ah... yes and no.
He does deliver what should be a mortal wound, but not instantly so, thus giving Thanos time to activate the appropriate Infinity Gem and undo it.
Had Thor gone either for Thanos' head (for the instant kill) or arm (to separate Thanos from the Infinity Gauntlet) it would have been a win for the good guys. A costly win, but still a win.
Dr Strange coud have done the same thing with his portals but that would have spoiled the narrative..
Cap Marvel vs Hulk - given her perfomance at the end of her film she could have defeated the first invasion of Earth on her own - Hulk was being overwhelmed by a horde of foot soldiers.
Thanos "now" is probably killiable by many of the currrent heroes - I am assuming its Thanos "then" they have to fight?
I’m still going with the theory that they show up and find Thanos already dead from Thor’s ax blow. Recover the gems and try to figure out how to undo it. Somehow Tony is the pivotal one to fixing everything, not Carol.
AduroT wrote: Thanos put Hulk down like he was nothing, Carol wouldn’t fare any better. She’s got flight and ranged attacks, but isnt as strong. Sure she got to look super bad arsed in her own movie, but she was only fighting non-powered individuals and spaceships. I imagine her role will be in knowing space and the factions out there to help the Avengers track down where Thanos went.
I think I disagree, at least as presented in the MCU.
Spoiler:
Compare when the Hulk was rampaging on the Helicarrier, and when Captain Marvel literally punched through a Kree warship like it was cardboard.
I'm not saying she can necessarily beat Thanos, because that would be a pretty boring movie among other things. But I think Captain Marvel is significantly stronger than the MCU Hulk, who seems substantially less powerful than he is in the comics.
Given the origin of Carol's powers, one wonders if Thanos might simply be able to turn her "off" -- so to speak.
I figure big fight with the heavy hitters, she doesn't follow orders/stick to the plan and gets beaten -- but learns a valuable lesson about team work, remembers the importance of a wing man etc etc etc.
Cap dies/winds up in the stone -- maybe with Peggy/some version of her.
Stark etc retire -- quick quip about how the Avengers will always need a Captain to lead them, happy every after etc etc
Vulcan wrote:A fair amount of comedy... which sadly is mostly at Nick Fury's expense. It's like the director saw Fury as being just another token comic relief black guy, which is my one serious complaint about the film.
My take was that it was just a younger, more relaxed Fury who had not yet seen some gak and caused him to be as serious and jaded.
AduroT wrote: Thanos put Hulk down like he was nothing, Carol wouldn’t fare any better. She’s got flight and ranged attacks, but isnt as strong. Sure she got to look super bad arsed in her own movie, but she was only fighting non-powered individuals and spaceships. I imagine her role will be in knowing space and the factions out there to help the Avengers track down where Thanos went.
I think I disagree, at least as presented in the MCU.
Spoiler:
Compare when the Hulk was rampaging on the Helicarrier, and when Captain Marvel literally punched through a Kree warship like it was cardboard.
I'm not saying she can necessarily beat Thanos, because that would be a pretty boring movie among other things. But I think Captain Marvel is significantly stronger than the MCU Hulk, who seems substantially less powerful than he is in the comics.
Given the origin of Carol's powers, one wonders if Thanos might simply be able to turn her "off" -- so to speak.
I figure big fight with the heavy hitters, she doesn't follow orders/stick to the plan and gets beaten -- but learns a valuable lesson about team work, remembers the importance of a wing man etc etc etc.
That's the plot twist this city needs: Kevin Feige spends years building up CM as the most powerful being in the MCU, and then turns out Thanos can just cut her connection to the stone.
But her not being a team player and then coming around would be pretty on-message for the character.
The Captain America\Peggy twist would be a pretty sweet ending to that story.
Thanos wasn't able to switch off Vision, or Wanda. And both (directly and indirectly, in that exact order) were powered by Infinity Stone stuff. Wanda is probably the closest in nature to Carol). So it seems likely he won't have that control over Carol Danvers. Mind you, he was missing one stone when he confronted Wanda, so that's a variable right there.
Thanos wasn't able to switch off Vision, or Wanda. And both (directly and indirectly, in that exact order) were powered by Infinity Stone stuff. Wanda is probably the closest in nature to Carol). So it seems likely he won't have that control over Carol Danvers. Mind you, he was missing one stone when he confronted Wanda, so that's a variable right there.
Vision is sort of less powered by a stone, and more that he Is the stone, or at least it’s a part of him, and thus the extensive surgery required to separate it and the discussion of how much of him would be left after they were to do so. And with Wanda, Thanos wasn’t just missing A stone, he was missing The stone that she got her powers from, namely the same Mind Stone that was part of Vision. If Carol shows up now, or even Wanda again, now he’s got their power source, so it might be a different story.
Thanos wasn't able to switch off Vision, or Wanda. And both (directly and indirectly, in that exact order) were powered by Infinity Stone stuff. Wanda is probably the closest in nature to Carol). So it seems likely he won't have that control over Carol Danvers. Mind you, he was missing one stone when he confronted Wanda, so that's a variable right there.
Vision is sort of less powered by a stone, and more that he Is the stone, or at least it’s a part of him, and thus the extensive surgery required to separate it and the discussion of how much of him would be left after they were to do so. And with Wanda, Thanos wasn’t just missing A stone, he was missing The stone that she got her powers from, namely the same Mind Stone that was part of Vision. If Carol shows up now, or even Wanda again, now he’s got their power source, so it might be a different story.
Athough depends "when" they fight him - also his gauntet looked pretty damaged?
Stark did say the Mind Stone itself worked much like a brain. The issue of personality could be interesting though. It’s kind of the same question they were worried about with how much of Vision is left if the stone is removed from his head. How of Vision resides in the stone when his head is removed from it? Also Thanos did it, shall we say “less gently” than the Avengers were trying to do it.
The only thing we truly know is Tony is pivotal to the successful outcome somehow.
Booked my ticket this morning (GAWD BLESS PAYDAY, AND ALL WHO SAIL UPON HER).
Going to a fancy cinema, too. Everyman, Canary Wharf. Worth a google, as it’s well lush. And seeing ultimately a big kids film in a wannabe poncy venue appeals to my sense of irony.
Its gonna be like, 3 weeks or so till I see it, I hate seeing movies in crowded theaters.
Im likely gonna just roll up to the Drive In with my nephews next week and See it.
I'm just going to copypasta what I wrote on another board as I'm not typing this all out again. This movie has tons to unpack and work through, so my review/retelling is kinda stream of consciousness-y.
Either way, everything is a spoiler, so it goes in tags:
Spoiler:
Ok, unpacking this film is tough because there is so much to go through. To start with what a lot of others have said, this is the other side of the Infinity War coin. Where that film was Thanos first and foremost, this film was an Avengers film, specifically the core original six. On that alone it works.
Broadly the film is divided into three specific sections:
1. The fallout from Infinity War.
2. Adventures in Space and Time.
3. The Final Battle.
The fallout from Infinity War is the most dour part, as everyone has lost. It's interesting to see how people develop over this period, with Cap and Natasha unwilling to move on, Tony teaching Nebula to be more of a person (and failing to fix the ship), Clint losing the plot and turning into an anti-crime murder machine, and finally Thor giving into despondence and anguish, falling into a spiral of guilt, shame and self-loathing. And it's all fantastic stuff, and especially as the confrontation with Thanos happens so quickly during that part, and how that confrontation leads to nothing, makes it all the more interesting. Civil War broke the Avengers up, but Thanos disassembled them. And for all its showings in the posters and whatnot, the Hulkbuster suit is on screen for all of 30 seconds, if that, so yeah. Oh and Korg is there, and has clearly prayed to the Emperor of Mankind to rid of him of the influence of Bathos, the 5th God of Chaos, because he doesn't ruin a since scene he's in.
The Adventures in Time and Space section is where we get the most laughs, as it's the one where they get to play with the setting, revisit old time periods, but also have some serious drama. I love them revisiting New York during Loki's Chitarui invasion. This is where we get cameos a'plenty, and there are some amazing ones. Loki showing up again (and escaping with the Tesseract) is a maddening bit that will plague me until they definitively state whether he really will show up again. The balls Marvel has to have Cap go "Hail Hydra" into Agent Sitwell's ear in a sort-of recreation of the incredible elevator scene from Winter Soldier is just great. Robert Redford shows up!!! I did not see that coming at all. Cap fights himself, which was funny. Professor Hulk pretends to be angry, and then has a full conversation with The Ancient One, which was amazing. Revisiting the opening scene of Guardians one, but from Rhodey and Nebula's perspective was great, as was the method Thanos uses to find out what's going on. Plus the stuff in the 70's (70's?) with Howard Stark and Cap seeing Peggy, all amazing. Really the only real self-indulgent part is that they re-use the classic 360 around the Avengers from the first film, but as this is their victory lap I'll let them have it. We also get some fantastic stuff with Thor and Frigga, of all people. I think Frigga has more screentime in this film than in Thor/Thor 2 combined! Sadly no Lady Sif, although Jane Foster is in there with new stuff (but no lines it seems). Love Thor leaving with Mjolnir.
And then... Widow sacrifices herself so that Hawkeye can get the soul stone. I guess we're in for a wave of screeching "Fridging is soggy knees!" articles in the coming weeks, but for the scene itself it's heartbreaking. So is the aftermath with the remaining 5 back at base.
Then comes the final battle, and after Professor Hulk unsnaps the universe I deadset thought that Thanos' ship had killed Scott with that barrage. They survive, naturally, but it does mean that Tony, Cap and Thor have to take on Thanos by themselves. Even without the gauntlet Thanos is no slouch, and he cleans their clocks pretty damn well. Tony is knocked out cold, and Thor very nearly gets his own axe through his chest if not for...
Cap wielding Mjolnir!!!
The audience reaction to this bit was huge, with someone down the front just shouting "YES! YES!" when it happened. Totally worth it for the payoff of 11 years, as Cap engages Thanos 1-on-1, his shield in one arm, Mjolnir in the other. He uppercuts Thanos, he zaps him, he summons lightning. He does all the very Thor things, and it's simply amazing. It doesn't really work though, as, again, Thanos is a fething beast, nearly cuts Cap's shield in half with that double-blade thingy he has, and he doesn't go down.
Then Thanos swears to wipe out all existing life so that no one will know, and my heart skips a beat as I wonder if this is how they'll end the film and somehow justify mutants existing in the MCU. Thankfully no, that never comes to pass, but Thanos does roll out a massive army with everything we've seen him use so far (and some new giant hulking creatures in armour). The Black Order shows up again (I missed what happened to Corvus and Proxima this time, but the ends of Cull and Maw are very clear this time - I'll need more viewings to find them), and they're just advancing on Cap all by himself. It's very Jon Snow vs the entire Bolton army from Game of Thrones, except this time we get another great callback to previous films.
"Hey Cap... on your left!", and slingring portals start opening up everywhere. This is probablyh another indulgent moment, as they show everyone coming back, and more and more characters showing up (Wasp, Valk on a fething pegasus, everyone who dusted on Titan, Wakanda, the Wakanda army - all of them, with air support this time). Everyone who can be there is there. And I mean everyone. They all advance, meet up with Cap, and he finally orders the Avengers to assemble (more big reaction from the crowd, more "YES!" from the dude up the front of the cinema).
The battle is enormous and kinda dark, so it becomes hard to follow. It will require many viewings to get the full scope of all the stuff going on. I basically lose Rhodey, Rocket and Bucky during the fight. And honestly I've forgotten why Scott and Hope are trying to use Juan Punch Man's van (Luis does not show up, sadly). Scott gets some great moves (including squashing Cull), Valk proves why she's one of the Valkyrie, Falcon takes down one of those big things I mentioned before, and then Thanos finds himself up against a very-pissed-off-and-totally-not-holding-back Scarlet Witch. Holy crap does Wanda go to town on Thanos, to the point where she is literally about to tear him apart with her mind. Thanos has to cheat by calling in an orbital (or sub-orbital) bombardment just to escape. Thanos even has his ship fire on his own troops to get an advantage, something that the newly arrived Captain Marvel stops by doing that thing where she just flies through gak because she's basically invincible. The "all the women have each other's back" bit is about as cringe as the film gets (that and the America's Ass joke which is maybe used one too many times), mainly because of the geography of the battle makes it weird for all of them to be there at that point.
We get lots of keepaway from various characters, including a nice fight between Carol and Thanos where she actually gets angry and starts to really block everything he can hit her with (I call her the MCU's unstoppable force, but she may just be the MCU's immovable object as well) until Thanos just blasts her with the power stone. It's not an easy fight for either of them, but it never feels like Carol can just do it one handed, nor does it feel like Thanos is better than everyone. Strange and the students of Kamar-Taj are mostly on damage control, shielding a lot of incoming attacks. Strange himself has to spend a lot of time protecting the armies. Oh and Pepper is there, as Rescue, which is fething amazing. And Quill gets kicked in the balls by pre-Guardians Gamora. And Nebula kills Nebula, which is bizarre. And Spidey activates Instant-Kill mode, and it's amazing!
Eventually, finally, Tony realises that he has to make the sacrifice play, understanding that this is the one chance they have at winning (Strange makes that not so subtle as well). He gets the stones, and Thanos repeats the line he said just before Thor killed him at the start of the film: "I am inevitable". Very Agent Smith.
Tony responds with the best come back he can muster: "I am... Iron Man."
*snap*
Thanos' army begins to dust, and eventually Thanos himself goes. Tony dies, saying goodbye to Rhodey, Peter and finally Pepper. We get a very Return of the King multiple endings thing after that, all 100% earned, where we get even more cameos (Hill, Thunderbolt Ross, Hank Pym, Janet van Dyne, Tachalla's mother, Fury, Aunt May and even the kid from Iron Man 3). Cap passes the mantle onto Sam, which is great, and Cap finally gets to live his life as he chooses (Peggy got a happy ending!).
Overall yeah, this film is immense. I will need to see it again tomorrow just to get a handle on everything. And then see it again on Saturday.
And most surprising cameo has to be Jarvis, as in the Jarvis from Agent Carter. That surprised me more than Robert Redford showing up. That's a deep, deep cut for hardcore MCU fans, and I appreciated it, even if that show never got a third season.
Yeah, so much in this film. I don't think they left me dissatisfied in any way. A wonderful send-off to the MCU as it exists now. Bring on New Avengers.
Worth seeing a few times just so you can experience everything without the surprises coming (sounds weird, but sometimes it's good to go into a film where you know what's coming, so it isn't so relentless) and a few times just so you can work out what's happening in the final battle.
It's not confusing or overstuffed; it's just huge, and it makes the character team-ups in Infinity War look pathetically small in comparison.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm just going to copypasta what I wrote on another board as I'm not typing this all out again. This movie has tons to unpack and work through, so my review/retelling is kinda stream of consciousness-y.
Either way, everything is a spoiler, so it goes in tags:
Spoiler:
Ok, unpacking this film is tough because there is so much to go through. To start with what a lot of others have said, this is the other side of the Infinity War coin. Where that film was Thanos first and foremost, this film was an Avengers film, specifically the core original six. On that alone it works.
Broadly the film is divided into three specific sections:
1. The fallout from Infinity War.
2. Adventures in Space and Time.
3. The Final Battle.
The fallout from Infinity War is the most dour part, as everyone has lost. It's interesting to see how people develop over this period, with Cap and Natasha unwilling to move on, Tony teaching Nebula to be more of a person (and failing to fix the ship), Clint losing the plot and turning into an anti-crime murder machine, and finally Thor giving into despondence and anguish, falling into a spiral of guilt, shame and self-loathing. And it's all fantastic stuff, and especially as the confrontation with Thanos happens so quickly during that part, and how that confrontation leads to nothing, makes it all the more interesting. Civil War broke the Avengers up, but Thanos disassembled them. And for all its showings in the posters and whatnot, the Hulkbuster suit is on screen for all of 30 seconds, if that, so yeah. Oh and Korg is there, and has clearly prayed to the Emperor of Mankind to rid of him of the influence of Bathos, the 5th God of Chaos, because he doesn't ruin a since scene he's in.
The Adventures in Time and Space section is where we get the most laughs, as it's the one where they get to play with the setting, revisit old time periods, but also have some serious drama. I love them revisiting New York during Loki's Chitarui invasion. This is where we get cameos a'plenty, and there are some amazing ones. Loki showing up again (and escaping with the Tesseract) is a maddening bit that will plague me until they definitively state whether he really will show up again. The balls Marvel has to have Cap go "Hail Hydra" into Agent Sitwell's ear in a sort-of recreation of the incredible elevator scene from Winter Soldier is just great. Robert Redford shows up!!! I did not see that coming at all. Cap fights himself, which was funny. Professor Hulk pretends to be angry, and then has a full conversation with The Ancient One, which was amazing. Revisiting the opening scene of Guardians one, but from Rhodey and Nebula's perspective was great, as was the method Thanos uses to find out what's going on. Plus the stuff in the 70's (70's?) with Howard Stark and Cap seeing Peggy, all amazing. Really the only real self-indulgent part is that they re-use the classic 360 around the Avengers from the first film, but as this is their victory lap I'll let them have it. We also get some fantastic stuff with Thor and Frigga, of all people. I think Frigga has more screentime in this film than in Thor/Thor 2 combined! Sadly no Lady Sif, although Jane Foster is in there with new stuff (but no lines it seems). Love Thor leaving with Mjolnir.
And then... Widow sacrifices herself so that Hawkeye can get the soul stone. I guess we're in for a wave of screeching "Fridging is soggy knees!" articles in the coming weeks, but for the scene itself it's heartbreaking. So is the aftermath with the remaining 5 back at base.
Then comes the final battle, and after Professor Hulk unsnaps the universe I deadset thought that Thanos' ship had killed Scott with that barrage. They survive, naturally, but it does mean that Tony, Cap and Thor have to take on Thanos by themselves. Even without the gauntlet Thanos is no slouch, and he cleans their clocks pretty damn well. Tony is knocked out cold, and Thor very nearly gets his own axe through his chest if not for...
Cap wielding Mjolnir!!!
The audience reaction to this bit was huge, with someone down the front just shouting "YES! YES!" when it happened. Totally worth it for the payoff of 11 years, as Cap engages Thanos 1-on-1, his shield in one arm, Mjolnir in the other. He uppercuts Thanos, he zaps him, he summons lightning. He does all the very Thor things, and it's simply amazing. It doesn't really work though, as, again, Thanos is a fething beast, nearly cuts Cap's shield in half with that double-blade thingy he has, and he doesn't go down.
Then Thanos swears to wipe out all existing life so that no one will know, and my heart skips a beat as I wonder if this is how they'll end the film and somehow justify mutants existing in the MCU. Thankfully no, that never comes to pass, but Thanos does roll out a massive army with everything we've seen him use so far (and some new giant hulking creatures in armour). The Black Order shows up again (I missed what happened to Corvus and Proxima this time, but the ends of Cull and Maw are very clear this time - I'll need more viewings to find them), and they're just advancing on Cap all by himself. It's very Jon Snow vs the entire Bolton army from Game of Thrones, except this time we get another great callback to previous films.
"Hey Cap... on your left!", and slingring portals start opening up everywhere. This is probablyh another indulgent moment, as they show everyone coming back, and more and more characters showing up (Wasp, Valk on a fething pegasus, everyone who dusted on Titan, Wakanda, the Wakanda army - all of them, with air support this time). Everyone who can be there is there. And I mean everyone. They all advance, meet up with Cap, and he finally orders the Avengers to assemble (more big reaction from the crowd, more "YES!" from the dude up the front of the cinema).
The battle is enormous and kinda dark, so it becomes hard to follow. It will require many viewings to get the full scope of all the stuff going on. I basically lose Rhodey, Rocket and Bucky during the fight. And honestly I've forgotten why Scott and Hope are trying to use Juan Punch Man's van (Luis does not show up, sadly). Scott gets some great moves (including squashing Cull), Valk proves why she's one of the Valkyrie, Falcon takes down one of those big things I mentioned before, and then Thanos finds himself up against a very-pissed-off-and-totally-not-holding-back Scarlet Witch. Holy crap does Wanda go to town on Thanos, to the point where she is literally about to tear him apart with her mind. Thanos has to cheat by calling in an orbital (or sub-orbital) bombardment just to escape. Thanos even has his ship fire on his own troops to get an advantage, something that the newly arrived Captain Marvel stops by doing that thing where she just flies through gak because she's basically invincible. The "all the women have each other's back" bit is about as cringe as the film gets (that and the America's Ass joke which is maybe used one too many times), mainly because of the geography of the battle makes it weird for all of them to be there at that point.
We get lots of keepaway from various characters, including a nice fight between Carol and Thanos where she actually gets angry and starts to really block everything he can hit her with (I call her the MCU's unstoppable force, but she may just be the MCU's immovable object as well) until Thanos just blasts her with the power stone. It's not an easy fight for either of them, but it never feels like Carol can just do it one handed, nor does it feel like Thanos is better than everyone. Strange and the students of Kamar-Taj are mostly on damage control, shielding a lot of incoming attacks. Strange himself has to spend a lot of time protecting the armies. Oh and Pepper is there, as Rescue, which is fething amazing. And Quill gets kicked in the balls by pre-Guardians Gamora. And Nebula kills Nebula, which is bizarre. And Spidey activates Instant-Kill mode, and it's amazing!
Eventually, finally, Tony realises that he has to make the sacrifice play, understanding that this is the one chance they have at winning (Strange makes that not so subtle as well). He gets the stones, and Thanos repeats the line he said just before Thor killed him at the start of the film: "I am inevitable". Very Agent Smith.
Tony responds with the best come back he can muster: "I am... Iron Man."
*snap*
Thanos' army begins to dust, and eventually Thanos himself goes. Tony dies, saying goodbye to Rhodey, Peter and finally Pepper. We get a very Return of the King multiple endings thing after that, all 100% earned, where we get even more cameos (Hill, Thunderbolt Ross, Hank Pym, Janet van Dyne, Tachalla's mother, Fury, Aunt May and even the kid from Iron Man 3). Cap passes the mantle onto Sam, which is great, and Cap finally gets to live his life as he chooses (Peggy got a happy ending!).
Overall yeah, this film is immense. I will need to see it again tomorrow just to get a handle on everything. And then see it again on Saturday.
And most surprising cameo has to be Jarvis, as in the Jarvis from Agent Carter. That surprised me more than Robert Redford showing up. That's a deep, deep cut for hardcore MCU fans, and I appreciated it, even if that show never got a third season.
Yeah, so much in this film. I don't think they left me dissatisfied in any way. A wonderful send-off to the MCU as it exists now. Bring on New Avengers.
Wow... just amazing.
Thanx for the review. I'm super stoked to see all this playout. Sadly have to wait until Saturday afternoon at the earliest (Friday nights are always way too crowded)
Oh and Stan Lee cameo cracked whole hall into laughter.
But gosh 3 hour movies are looooong to sit. Good thing I had been avoiding drinking ahead in time. Especially as in theater here there's 1 men/women toilet and 1 women only toilet.
Couple favourite jokes in spoilers.
Spoiler:
-Thor giving earful for some poor fellow(maybe kid) over online game
-Hulk smashing couple cars and so more for "just for appearances" when they came to New York in past.
-"Your mother never wears anything I get her anyway"
-Thor preferring bloody mary over breakfest
-Thor coming along on promise of booze in ship
-"I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, I can't do this"
-"I'm so from the future"
I liked it enough to not feel ripped off. Okay as an action film(bit too over the top for my tastes) but plenty of humour and that Thor was just great. Not something you usually see in super hero films. Though guess he could be divisive as well. Some will like, some won't(noticed he isn't shown much in official trailer that I can see so no more than that about him).
Thought it was great as it paid off not just the last film but the entire history of the MCU. The grand spectacle in the last hour just has to be seen.
I think they should have made a bigger deal of that fight, TBH, if only to give Okoye a bit more to do at the end.
[EDIT]: Reading over my big rambly post I realise that if someone had posted that a year ago you'd laugh at them for writing the biggest wish fulfilment bit of fan fiction ever. I mean, there are bits I've missed in my description like...
Spoiler:
Black Panther and Spider-Man playing keep away with the Infinity Gauntlet, present-Tony sending Ant-Man to mess with past-Tony's arc reactor to give him a 'minor' cardiac issue, Rhodey and Scott arguing with Hulk over time travel movies, Cap telling cap that he can 'do this all day', Iron Man and Rescue fighting back-to-back blasting away at Thanos' army, Cap ending up with Stormbringer and swapping back with Thor to get Mjolnir
... and many more, and they just sound like I'm making them up. I mean, it's crazy.
Going to see this again tomorrow, then I think I'm seeing it with friends on Saturday, and then I am seeing it with another friend on Sunday.
It really is a fantastic pay off for the previous movies. And to be be honest, the three hour duration feels about right. There’s very little we could cut out.
My favourite bit?
Spoiler:
Korg’s line about some kid calling him a dill weed. Probably because I enjoy a good swear, but that really tickled me.
And I now have a Chris Hemsworth body, so there’s that too
Though the portal moment....and the look of ‘umm.....oh’ on Thanos’ face. Seeing all that happen very nearly brought me to tears. It’s just executed so beautifully.
And given the timeywimey? I wonder if they’ve deliberately broken the rules, given the pay off of doing so opens up multiverse potential. And that in turn gives them a range of options when they incorporate the previously owned by Fox stuff.
+1 to all the good stuff people have been saying. I was honestly surprised to realise three hours had passed at the end. Go see this, as unspoiled as possible. It's not just a brilliant superhero movie, I think it's one of the only movies in recent years that I'd describe as legitimately epic, like something from the Golden Age.
Spoiler:
One thing I was surprised at was how the snap isn't retconned--yes, the people come back, but the five years have still passed and everyone remembers what happens. So now the population of the world is split by those who suffered through the loss and those who (from their point of view) jumped forwards five years into a very different world. I do wonder if any future movies will follow on this--say, if Peter Parker meets any former classmates who are now five years older than him.
I was also impressed by Thanos' arc, and not just how he signed off in the opening battle, conducting himself like a tragic, misunderstood hero until the end. But after that, the film builds Past Thanos back up as a terrifying villain and near-unstoppable threat--after all, in the changed timeline, he never had the shock of having to make a sacrifice for the Soulstone, and finding out that he's "destined" to win would logically fuel his hubris. But the story also let him keep enough of his gravitas and dignity "(I will wait.") to not have it feel like his character was flattened down into a generic end boss.
The most telling thing for me about this movie are the negative reviews on Rotten Tomatoes.
They’re basically sniffy film ponces being sniffy film ponces. The sort of up themselves buttmunches that inherently don’t like any film that isn’t some poofy art jazz spank.
Oh and more of the jokes that kept me entertained:
Spoiler:
All the references to time travel movies. "What? You mean Back to the future were telling crap?" or something to that effect(I don't remember exact quote) and so on.
For me favourite part of the movie was the middle with start at close second.
Spoiler:
I liked the "retired Thanos" at the end. You don't see that kind of stuff in movies. Villain with a retirement plan
When Hawkeye and Black Widow are doing their thing to get the Soul Stone? I really did wonder if they were going to Deus Ex it with a bit of 'because you're both being selfless here, you pass the test etc'.
And I am so glad they didn't. That whole scene was pretty superb.
Went to go see it last night. They did a great job putting a capstone on 11 years and 22 films. Thoroughly enjoyable, surprising, funny and moving.definite recommend for anyone who has been watching the MCU films.
Spoiler:
I was really impressed with some of the plot structure stuff:
1. Making it so that knowing where the infinity stones were in the timeline was the key to fixing everything was a wonderful nod to all us nerds who obsessed over the timeline and the locations of the stones all these years.
2. Making the plot a sort of tour of the past movies was inspired!
3. Putting the heroes up against their past selves was both an amazing spectacle and in some cases a way to show how much character development has happened.
4. And of course, making the whole film about getting the team back together and making us all super invested in it is a trick that has worked for them before, and worked wonderfully this time.
5. Killing Thanos in the first five minutes. Amazing!
That last battle, when everyone comes trooping through the sling-ring portals to join the fight...what a pay off!
Saw it last night and was genuinely blown away. There were multiple times that the full theater either cheered, clapped, and audibly gasped. It was a wonderful experience.
Ouze wrote: One spoiler I am willing to read: can one of you guys who sees it early post when a good time to go pee is?
Honestly, I don't really think there is one, especially for a first time viewing. I just stuck it out all the way to the end, even though I had to really take a leak about half way into it.
Some specific things I enjoyed:
Spoiler:
Thor dual-wielding Mjolnir and Stormbreaker was amazing.
Cap wielding Mjolnir was amazing.
The entire climax battle was the greatest superhero moment ever put on screen. Change my mind.
I enjoyed the A-Force Easter egg/teaser/moment/whatever.
Black Widow and Hawkeye's mission to get the Soul Stone was marvelous.
The acting in general was top notch.
Cap "passing the torch" to Sam was a tearjerker.
A surprising amount of emotional weight from multiple characters.
"Hail Hydra."
-Cap wielding Mjolnir. Seriously, the theater broke out in loud applauds.
-Loki survives the timeline! Thanos doesn't get the chance to kill him.
-Hawkeye and Black Widow soulstone scene. Lawd they nailed it and hits you in the feelz.
-Cap adjusting the damaged shield and squares off against Thanos' army in a "Agragorn charges the army of morder" scene.
Not much to say that hasn't been said up the page in terms of non-spoilers, but yeah, this is a generation-defining movie even moreso than Infinity War was. It's the crown jewel of the MCU and this golden age of comic book movies as a whole, and it's something that would have been unthinkable 5 years ago, let alone 10 when it all started or 15 when we had the original X-men/Spidey/FF movies. Definitely one where 99% of what you expect to happen a certain way won't, and some of the stuff you'd never expect in a million years will.
Spoilery McSpoilerstuff:
Spoiler:
Starting at the very beginning, I really, really applaud the scene where Thanos is killed. It's such a human moment for so many of them, Thor especially, and it's maybe the first time they live up to their name as 'Avengers', making good on their promise in AA. They couldn't save the world, but they can damn well avenge it. It's a wonderful fusion of narrative pointlessness and utter satisfaction as his head rolls across the floor, for characters and audience alike. Going from that into the 'five years later' cut is genius.
Really liked Professor Hulk, didn't like Fat Thor at all but it makes sense why he's like that and the scene with Frigga is great. Just wish that he'd gone fully back to his awesome, stoic Infinity War self for the final battle. Love how understated Stark and Steve's reunion was at the start, how for a moment it was like Civil War never happened but a whole new wave of grief and guilt spills out seconds later. Barton as Ronin was great, Widow finding a purpose in holding the end of the world together was really good as well and their scene together on Vormir was tragic in its simplicity.
While I feel the Timey Wimey middle act was maybe a few minutes too long, it was packed with good stuff. Nice to see the Ancient One and Frigga again, the elevator scene throwback was great and the sort of thing that would have broken the internet if thatline leaked... Good setup for some more Loki shenanigans and the scene with Tony and Howard was a standout of that sequence. As someone said before, the reintroduction of an even more maniacal and dangerous Thanos paid off brilliantly.
But really, it's all about that jaw-dropping, mind-melting finale. The initial throwdown with Cap, Stark and Thor against Thanos was right off the pages of a comic book, and Cap wielding Miljnor is going to go down as one of the MCU's most iconic moments. Love the fact that's not just a throwaway shot but something that sticks around for some really badass moments.
And then...
Definitely tears in my eyes as the portals open up and the brave and the bold step up to take on Thanos's bigger-than-ever horde, and the Mad Titan himself (who does a great job of justifying his reputation as the deadliest being in the universe even without an gauntlet). Spidey and Panther both getting big moments in the battle was amazing, as was the moment of realisation when Thanos's warship turned all its guns, ineffectually, on a rapidly approaching Carol. Definitely more to be picked up in that sequence on future viewings, as pretty much every able-bodied character across 22 films turns up and does a Cool Thing in there somewhere.
And then...
'I am Iron Man'. Pretty much the most perfect end to things. Full circle, the ultimate sacrifice play and the greatest proof you could ask for that behind all the snark, all the wit, all the guilt, Tony is a hero. And again, that shot of him with the gauntlet and all six stones, ready to save the world, is right off the cover of big comic book crossover finale issue. Much like IW, Endgame is at its best when its clear love for the comic book medium shines through the brightest.
The remaining denouements and epilogues all feel earned, and strike a great balance between saying goodbye and hinting at more to come. Steve and Peggy get their dance, and the world is saved for another day.
Fittingly, if there's a word that describes how all this plays out, then 'excelsior', 'ever upward' is it... Thank you, Stan.
Saw it last night. Really good. The end is legitimately great. The beginning honestly is too. Further thoughts in the comments below:
Spoiler:
Okay, while I enjoyed the middle, its definitely more than a little indulgent for a film this long. Stuff like all of the GotG opening was fun, but feels like it will drag next time around. A lot of it was excellent (the Hail Hydra scene was master class) but other bits were excessive (Cap vs Cap does nothing). Getting a second Thanos in place for the rematch felt more than a little forced but what a rematch.
I was just feeling a little worn down and kind of disappointed in where the film was going, but when Mjolnir flies to cap I was sold to the end. There's just so much pay off; so much work to reward everyone and they did a great job saving the day without removing consequence AND without that consequence being a bunch of needless character deaths. The movie did a phenomenal job sending off characters without killing them, making sure characters got to bow out in well earned ways and its just... really, really smart and well done.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A couple answers to things mentioned while they're fresh in my head:
Spoiler:
H.B.M.C. wrote: And honestly I've forgotten why Scott and Hope are trying to use Juan Punch Man's van (Luis does not show up, sadly)
Scott and Hope are going to use the van to go back in time and return the stones so Thanos can't use them.
I couldn't figure out if geriatric Cap appearing at the end broke the rules established in the Banner/Ancient One dialogue?
Banner says if they return the stones the timelines will merge back together. I assume Steve just made sure to do nothing to significantly change the timeline, causing his new reality to merge back.
I thought it was a very mediocre film that is borderline Rotten for non MCU fans. Depending on how much of a fanboy/girl you are, you will either like or love the film. Personally, I disliked it enough that I'm probably not going to bother paying any attention to the MCU anymore. TLDR: Don't expect good writing in a comic book film.
Spoiler:
It started off strong. Another excellent cold open, the collective shock of killing Thanos, but realizing that solved nothing, and even after that there were some great moments. Thor/Cap/Iron Man 3v1 vs Thanos, Iron Man hugging Spider Man when he returned, Wanda taking on Thanos alone and forcing him to call in a freaking Orbital Bombardment. But outside of those...the film felt like little more than cornball fan service.
All of the Time Heist scenes were dreadful. I genuinely don't understand who finds the idea of Tony discussing parenting with his dad prior to Tony's birth interesting or meaningful. This is literally Hallmark Channel movie quality writing. Cap fights himself and groans at his catch phrase, cue laughter. Seriously? Oh, and the prosthetics for Thor's fat bod were awful. Like, is that really the best you can do? BSG got roasted for fat Lee Adama back in the day because weight gain isn't plot or character development.
Eh, there's just too much about this film that I can criticize. I'm really amazed that it is receiving the positive reception that it has been, but I guess people enjoy being coddled.
See, that was okay right up to the end. But you couldn't just leave it at your dislike of the movie simply being your opinion (which is entirely fine). You just had to get in a snarky dig about how people who did like it are "coddled", and therefore your opinion is superior to theirs. Poor form.
Before this movie came out I wondered what parts of the MCU you could skip if you were going to watch Infinity War for the first time before seeing Endgame, and for the most part there are actually quite a few. Incredible Hulk? Skip. Iron Man 3? Definite skip! Thor The Dark World (still an awkward title), probably skip. Ant-Man? Probably skip. Doctor Strange? IW does enough to explain who he is, so skip. Guardians of the Galaxy 2? They deal with enough of that in IW, so skip. Black Panther? Probable skip (BP himself is covered pretty well in Civil War). Ant-Man & The Wasp? Marginal skip. Captain Marvel? Skip.
But now... yeah. This movie really did pay off the past 21 films, and in really unexpected ways (especially The Dark World - who saw that coming?). They did an amazing job.
trexmeyer wrote: I thought it was a very mediocre film that is borderline Rotten for non MCU fans.
I really didn't understand the last episode of House/ER/Lost/Seinfeld, but I'd never watched any of those shows prior to the finale... but this is the finale's fault somehow!!!
As you say, one could watched Infinity War and Endgame without needing to see the others. But if someone has been unsure of the MCU before, and starts with these two? There’s enough between them to encourage watching the others after.
Spoiler:
Forgot to say that one the second watch, I glimpsed The Ravagers turning up during the last battle. Blink and you’ll miss them, but they’re there!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Before this movie came out I wondered what parts of the MCU you could skip if you were going to watch Infinity War for the first time before seeing Endgame, and for the most part there are actually quite a few. Incredible Hulk? Skip. Iron Man 3? Definite skip! Thor The Dark World (still an awkward title), probably skip. Ant-Man? Probably skip. Doctor Strange? IW does enough to explain who he is, so skip. Guardians of the Galaxy 2? They deal with enough of that in IW, so skip. Black Panther? Probable skip (BP himself is covered pretty well in Civil War). Ant-Man & The Wasp? Marginal skip. Captain Marvel? Skip.
Well myself I have seen just the ironman's, thor 1, captain america 1, avenger 1, 2, infinity war and endgame. Apart from new characters by the bucketload(dr. strange? Who's that?) no big deal. And not that not knowing about dr. strange(literally. First time ever I ran into him was watching infinity war first time) didn't really matter for the story.
I missed a lot of MCU so I missed a lot of stuff here, but I've
read lots of spoilers. My five to six films to watch list goes like this:
Spoiler:
Iron Man 1
Captain America First Avengers
The Avengers
The Avengers Civil War
Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2
Thor Ragnarok
I enjoyed this film very much. I did have a question though.
Spoiler:
Did I see correctly that there was an editing mistake? Or did
I mis-see it? Ant-Man and Wasp go off to fix the van for time
travel and they say they need ten minutes to start it up. "Oh
boy," I think, "at least ten more minutes of fight scene!"
But during the van fixing, there are cuts to the larger fight
going on, and I think I saw Giant Ant Man stomping on fools
in the background.
Or was that one of the Thanos giants?
It's not that important, it's just been bothering me and a bunch
of my friends are watching the film today or tomorrow, so I
won't get to talk about this with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My spoiler free review about this is that Endgame made me
want to rewatch MCU films. Infinity War did not do that. IW left me exhausted.
trexmeyer wrote: I thought it was a very mediocre film that is borderline Rotten for non MCU fans.
I really didn't understand the last episode of House/ER/Lost/Seinfeld, but I'd never watched any of those shows prior to the finale... but this is the finale's fault somehow!!!
I've watched every MCU film other than the Incredible Hulk and most of them on opening night. I've literally commented in the release threads for IW and Captain Marvel here (and I liked both of them). Try again.
Elemental wrote: See, that was okay right up to the end. But you couldn't just leave it at your dislike of the movie simply being your opinion (which is entirely fine). You just had to get in a snarky dig about how people who did like it are "coddled", and therefore your opinion is superior to theirs. Poor form.
Coddled: treat in an indulgent or overprotective way.
Fanservice: is material in a work of fiction or in a fictional series which is intentionally added to please the audience.
I used coddled because fanserviced doesn't sound quite right. I clearly hate fanservice, even the idea of it, but if you enjoy it that's fine. I think the Fast and the Furious films are a load of rubbish, but some people enjoy them, that's their opinion. Art is extremely subjective. Unless it's something that advocates for abuse, racism, etc, I don't particularly care if you like it. I just observed that I don't understand how you can enjoy Endgame if you dislike fanservice, but I phrased it in a less than tactful way so for that I apologize.
Is it worthwhile for someone who is tired of super hero movies but is okay with them on a simple "popcorn" level...most of the time?
Last film I can I say genuinely enjoyed was Spider Man Homecoming (because Michael Keaton). Is it 3-Hours worth of popcorn? Good for someone who wasn't blown away by Infinity War and who thought Black Panther was absolute gak?
I have a cinema nearby which has amazing leather reclining seats etc., and I can see a movie mid-day for like $6.
Elbows wrote: Is it worthwhile for someone who is tired of super hero movies but is okay with them on a simple "popcorn" level...most of the time?
Last film I can I say genuinely enjoyed was Spider Man Homecoming (because Michael Keaton). Is it 3-Hours worth of popcorn? Good for someone who wasn't blown away by Infinity War and who thought Black Panther was absolute gak?
I have a cinema nearby which has amazing leather reclining seats etc., and I can see a movie mid-day for like $6.
Probably not. The middle hour is a bit of a drag and it's really nothing more than a culmination of the MCU (up to this point). It's definitely not a self contained movie. It's much more crowded than IW.
Elbows wrote: Is it worthwhile for someone who is tired of super hero movies but is okay with them on a simple "popcorn" level...most of the time?
Last film I can I say genuinely enjoyed was Spider Man Homecoming (because Michael Keaton). Is it 3-Hours worth of popcorn? Good for someone who wasn't blown away by Infinity War and who thought Black Panther was absolute gak?
I have a cinema nearby which has amazing leather reclining seats etc., and I can see a movie mid-day for like $6.
Well I enjoyed it and I'm not all that big fan of super hero movies and even less fan of big battle scenes(I prefer one vs one or at leasts small group vs small group).
Can't btw connect term black panther to anybody int he movie
6$? Sheesh wish tickets were that cheap here. More than double that here.
Elbows wrote: Is it worthwhile for someone who is tired of super hero movies but is okay with them on a simple "popcorn" level...most of the time?
Last film I can I say genuinely enjoyed was Spider Man Homecoming (because Michael Keaton). Is it 3-Hours worth of popcorn? Good for someone who wasn't blown away by Infinity War and who thought Black Panther was absolute gak?
I have a cinema nearby which has amazing leather reclining seats etc., and I can see a movie mid-day for like $6.
Probably not. The middle hour is a bit of a drag and it's really nothing more than a culmination of the MCU (up to this point). It's definitely not a self contained movie. It's much more crowded than IW.
I have seen probably less than quarter of MCU movies yet didn't feel like I was missing out on anything crucial.
And for me the middle was best. End(well end before the The End section) was meanwhile most boring part for me(though still passable)
Elemental wrote: See, that was okay right up to the end. But you couldn't just leave it at your dislike of the movie simply being your opinion (which is entirely fine). You just had to get in a snarky dig about how people who did like it are "coddled", and therefore your opinion is superior to theirs. Poor form.
Coddled: treat in an indulgent or overprotective way.
Fanservice: is material in a work of fiction or in a fictional series which is intentionally added to please the audience.
I used coddled because fanserviced doesn't sound quite right. I clearly hate fanservice, even the idea of it, but if you enjoy it that's fine. I think the Fast and the Furious films are a load of rubbish, but some people enjoy them, that's their opinion. Art is extremely subjective. Unless it's something that advocates for abuse, racism, etc, I don't particularly care if you like it. I just observed that I don't understand how you can enjoy Endgame if you dislike fanservice, but I phrased it in a less than tactful way so for that I apologize.
"You can't take offence at the word I used, because I actually meant this other word which has a different meaning, and which I didn't actually use."
Elbows wrote: Is it worthwhile for someone who is tired of super hero movies but is okay with them on a simple "popcorn" level...most of the time?
Last film I can I say genuinely enjoyed was Spider Man Homecoming (because Michael Keaton). Is it 3-Hours worth of popcorn? Good for someone who wasn't blown away by Infinity War and who thought Black Panther was absolute gak?
I have a cinema nearby which has amazing leather reclining seats etc., and I can see a movie mid-day for like $6.
If you saw Infinity War you’re fine seeing this, but if you didn’t like Black Panther I don’t know if you’ll enjoy this.
Complaining this film is “borderline rotten for non-MCU fans” is, well, OBVIOUS. They’re not selling it to anyone who isn’t already invested. It’s Part Twenty-something in a sequence.
Really, that’s the weirdest complaint you can possibly level at it. It’s quite literally the opposite of a jumping on point. It’s a wrap up, and a setup for the next phase (which will be a jumping on point again).
Honestly, if you disliked the movie that’s cool, but hyperbolic silliness like that is just silly. And the “coddling” thing is just trying to establish some faux intellectual superiority. Reeks of Stop Liking What I Don’t Like.
Elemental wrote: See, that was okay right up to the end. But you couldn't just leave it at your dislike of the movie simply being your opinion (which is entirely fine). You just had to get in a snarky dig about how people who did like it are "coddled", and therefore your opinion is superior to theirs. Poor form.
Coddled: treat in an indulgent or overprotective way.
Fanservice: is material in a work of fiction or in a fictional series which is intentionally added to please the audience.
I used coddled because fanserviced doesn't sound quite right. I clearly hate fanservice, even the idea of it, but if you enjoy it that's fine. I think the Fast and the Furious films are a load of rubbish, but some people enjoy them, that's their opinion. Art is extremely subjective. Unless it's something that advocates for abuse, racism, etc, I don't particularly care if you like it. I just observed that I don't understand how you can enjoy Endgame if you dislike fanservice, but I phrased it in a less than tactful way so for that I apologize.
"You can't take offence at the word I used, because I actually meant this other word which has a different meaning, and which I didn't actually use."
I really can't control what you take offense at. If you're bothered that I didn't like this movie and thought it was coddling, well, that's on you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnnyHell wrote: Complaining this film is “borderline rotten for non-MCU fans” is, well, OBVIOUS. They’re not selling it to anyone who isn’t already invested. It’s Part Twenty-something in a sequence.
Really, that’s the weirdest complaint you can possibly level at it. It’s quite literally the opposite of a jumping on point. It’s a wrap up, and a setup for the next phase (which will be a jumping on point again).
Honestly, if you disliked the movie that’s cool, but hyperbolic silliness like that is just silly. And the “coddling” thing is just trying to establish some faux intellectual superiority. Reeks of Stop Liking What I Don’t Like.
Really? Because many of the MCU films work fine as stand alone films or at least aren't 180~ minutes of self indulgent callbacks. Infinity War didn't trade quality of plot, visuals, and pacing for the sake of fan service.
And neither did Endgame, in the opinion of just about everybody except yourself. Though I expect you'll just take that as further evidence of your ostensibly superior taste
It's fine. Like what you like. If you didn't enjoy it then good. Enjoy what you do enjoy.
But I didn't think this was self indulgence in trade for plot. This was earned pay off in service to plot.
Spoiler:
In order for there to be decent writing going forward in the MCU it demanded that something be done about the infinity stones so that they were not always an answer to everything in the MCU going forward. Removing them entirely from the time line is a good answer to that.
The Pyrrhic victory of killing Thanos at the beginning with him removing the stones from existence is great. Thor has been on a downward spiral since Thor 2 and this being the nail in the coffin that breaks him is excellent for his ark.
Time travel to the points when they know the infinity stones are around is a good way for them to both call back to moments that everyone who has been on this ride can find appreciation in AND a great way to get an answer for the snap. Tony's kid is also a great plot element. It means that when they undo the snap its not as if the snap never happened. People are back but the damage has also been done. World need to recover. Many are still devastatingly traumatized. Others need to now find a place in a world that spent 5 years trying to move on from them.
Thors in space with Cap old and Tony dead. When Galactus shows up eventually we don't have to ask where are the power houses of the old Avengers team. They are not here any more. There is now room for Spiderman, Cassie Lang (now roughly spidermans age and able to be Stature), Hawkeyes Daughter (a stand in for Kate Bishop) and others to take a leading role in dealing with the new threats. Or at least for us to watch them grow into positions where they can be those people. They still have mentors. Antman, Wasp, Dr. Strange, Hawkeye proper, Smart Hulk, to point the way and give some mentorship. But there is more room for Peter Parker to do something more than pine for Tonys affection.
This isn't self indulgence for self indulgences sake. This is a logical path that gets to send them off with a trip down memory lane and pave a new path forward.
Ssssssssooooooooooooo..... Did all of Parker’s classmates get Snapped as well or is he just five years younger than everyone else now?
Spoiler:
It looks like the main cast all got snapped. But probably others did not. Interestingly, if Vultures Daughter did not got snapped she would be 5 years older and may come back as an actual adult Lady Vulture.
Ssssssssooooooooooooo..... Did all of Parker’s classmates get Snapped as well or is he just five years younger than everyone else now?
Spoiler:
It looks like the main cast all got snapped. But probably others did not. Interestingly, if Vultures Daughter did not got snapped she would be 5 years older and may come back as an actual adult Lady Vulture.
Spoiler:
At the very least, Ned appeared to be the same age, so we can assume he got snapped and came back. And MJ and Flash appear to be the same age in the FFH trailer.
Honestly, Endgame has done a lot for my level of excitement towards the upcoming Spidey outing. I kind of get the feeling that it'll act as an epilogue of sorts to the Infinity Saga. Peter Parker is the perfect character to act as a viewpoint on how the regular, non-superheroic world changed in those 5 years and deal with the aftermath of all that. There's also the implication in the trailers that Mysterio is trying to set himself up as an Iron Man-alike, which obviously isn't going to go down well with Peter given Stark's sacrifice.
Of all the MCU heroes, Peter is still probably the most 'ground level' outside of the defunct Netflixverse, so Far From Home will be the best chance we get to see what a post-Endgame world looks like to the regular mortals.
I really liked the movie, it was better than the previous one in my opinion. Some great emotive moments (like the beginning with Hawkeye especially but towards the end I was disappointed in some aspects that I'll explain in spoilers:
Spoiler:
One thing I was afraid with this movie was that everyone would be back and no characters died. That's what impressed me greatly with the first IW, it's that they dared snap half the cast just like that. It made sense they would try to bring them back in the second obviously but I hoped for a few deaths to add a real tragedy aspect to the movie. First there was Black Widow, which was really well-done, we could see Hawkeye's pain when he woke up with the Soul stone afterwards and it was great. Then we have Tony Stark's sacrifice which is also amazing.
But I really like Thanos as a badass villain and while I loved seeing him fight the other Avengers (and especially going mad on Cap's shield) I was really disappointed that he didn't kill a single Avenger/other character by himself. They manage to survive somehow to the blows of a guy who can fist-fight hulk without apparent serious injuries ? Okay for Captain Marvel and Thor because they're not exactly human, but Captain America and Scarlet Witch for example shouldn't be able to withstand blows like that and just get up. It was enough of a plot-armour element that they all survived the bombing of the HQ earlier. So in my opinion I think Thanos should have killed at least one character by himself in the fight to retain some credibility, when he started pushing the axe into Thor's chest I thought "this is it" but no then Captain plot armour saves the day.
So in the end they won, lost two important characters (because now it's doubtful Loki died) and call it a great tragedy while bringing everyone back alive. It really mocks the Thanos threat in my opinion and so we have 22 movies with two important characters dead in my memory (which is not perfect as I didn't watch every movie). Just disappointed in that part but that's my opinion.
I definitely feel like Infinity War was the better, more self-contained film. I walked out of Endgame feeling a little let down, though the more I sleep on it the more I think I was maybe being a little too hard on it. Anyway, thoughts below...
Spoiler:
I had some issues with the first act. How the flying feth does Captain Marvel know exactly where Tony is? She just appears in front of him. I kept waiting for some kind of explanation but none was forthcoming. It just seemed like 'we need Tony back on Earth, the how is not important.' I also didn't really like how they completely glossed over her meeting the rest of the team, though I suppose I can chalk that one up to the sake of brevity. 3 hours is pretty long as is. Final issue with the first act was how quickly Tony figures out time travel. Seemed like they showed up at Tony's door, told him the plan, and then he stays up late and figures it out. Boom, they now have time travel. Didn't make a whole lot of sense to me that he was the one to do it either, Tony's an engineer not a temporal mechanics genius.
The second act of the film was awesome fan service. It was great seeing iconic scenes from the rest of the MCU from different perspectives, and the scenes that they added were brilliant. The Hydra team showing up to claim Loki's scepter, running into Robert Redford in the lobby, future Thor talking to his mom - that was all great stuff. Really enjoyed it.
The third act of the film is tough because while I loved the sheer spectacle they gave us, some of the narrative decisions just didn't sit well with me. How Captain Marvel shows up at the end is a total mystery. No one tells her the plan and she explicitly says she's too busy dealing with the rest of space to worry about Earth, yet conveniently shows up for the final conflict anyway. More egregiously though, Guardians of the Galaxy beats us over the head with the idea that no mortal can withstand the power of even a single infinity stone. The Collector's associate dies doing it, the Collector himself explains that it's impossible even if you have a group of people sharing the load, Ronan himself has to slap it into his hammer and can't touch it directly, and even the Guardians themselves almost die despite Peter being half celestial. So, knowing this, how the hell does Tony wield all 6 stones? It makes zero sense at all, and really cheapened Tony's death for me.
Another issue I have, and someone above me posted much the same thing, is that Thanos doesn't kill a single damn Avenger himself. Tony dies through his own action, Black Widow kills herself willingly, and even Gamora isn't really 'dead' since we now have past Gamora in the current timeline anyway. We spent over 20 films building up to this villain, it was kind of a letdown for me that he doesn't exact a higher toll on the heroes. I kept waiting for an emotional gut punch that just never happened.
I'll probably watch it again to see how it holds up the second time. I felt similarly let down when I walked out of Ragnarok, but that became one of my favorites with subsequent viewings.
I think I agree with your points, though the "this does not make sense" points were easier for me to handwave than the "this is not very satisfying" point you make last.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I definitely feel like Infinity War was the better, more self-contained film. I walked out of Endgame feeling a little let down, though the more I sleep on it the more I think I was maybe being a little too hard on it. Anyway, thoughts below...
Spoiler:
I had some issues with the first act. How the flying feth does Captain Marvel know exactly where Tony is? She just appears in front of him. I kept waiting for some kind of explanation but none was forthcoming. It just seemed like 'we need Tony back on Earth, the how is not important.' I also didn't really like how they completely glossed over her meeting the rest of the team, though I suppose I can chalk that one up to the sake of brevity. 3 hours is pretty long as is. Final issue with the first act was how quickly Tony figures out time travel. Seemed like they showed up at Tony's door, told him the plan, and then he stays up late and figures it out. Boom, they now have time travel. Didn't make a whole lot of sense to me that he was the one to do it either, Tony's an engineer not a temporal mechanics genius.
The second act of the film was awesome fan service. It was great seeing iconic scenes from the rest of the MCU from different perspectives, and the scenes that they added were brilliant. The Hydra team showing up to claim Loki's scepter, running into Robert Redford in the lobby, future Thor talking to his mom - that was all great stuff. Really enjoyed it.
The third act of the film is tough because while I loved the sheer spectacle they gave us, some of the narrative decisions just didn't sit well with me. How Captain Marvel shows up at the end is a total mystery. No one tells her the plan and she explicitly says she's too busy dealing with the rest of space to worry about Earth, yet conveniently shows up for the final conflict anyway. More egregiously though, Guardians of the Galaxy beats us over the head with the idea that no mortal can withstand the power of even a single infinity stone. The Collector's associate dies doing it, the Collector himself explains that it's impossible even if you have a group of people sharing the load, Ronan himself has to slap it into his hammer and can't touch it directly, and even the Guardians themselves almost die despite Peter being half celestial. So, knowing this, how the hell does Tony wield all 6 stones? It makes zero sense at all, and really cheapened Tony's death for me.
Another issue I have, and someone above me posted much the same thing, is that Thanos doesn't kill a single damn Avenger himself. Tony dies through his own action, Black Widow kills herself willingly, and even Gamora isn't really 'dead' since we now have past Gamora in the current timeline anyway. We spent over 20 films building up to this villain, it was kind of a letdown for me that he doesn't exact a higher toll on the heroes. I kept waiting for an emotional gut punch that just never happened.
I'll probably watch it again to see how it holds up the second time. I felt similarly let down when I walked out of Ragnarok, but that became one of my favorites with subsequent viewings.
Spoiler:
I'm making assumptions here, but I suspect the answer is Because Vibranium. In Age of Ultron and Black Panther they make a big deal out of how Vibranium is so much more than just metal to make Cap's frisbee out of, and it's reasonable to believe that Tony's nanotech suit is based on the same concepts and materials as Shuri's modern Panther tech. It's also possible Thor shares a few bits of Asgardian and/or Dwarven wisdom with the team. All together, you have a gauntlet built from Vibranium nanotech by a supergenius quite possibly with Asgardian know-wots - I think that's just about enough to make it plausible that a regular pleb could briefly use the stones at the certain cost of their own life. Mind, Hulk only expected to survive using it because the main negative byproduct of their glove is Gamma and he's already about as saturated by that as you can get.
I have to say, I loved this movie, I predicited not to many would die but the Status Quo would be crazy changed and it was so that makes me happy
While I know part of the Netflix canceled was that netflix diddnt see much into the properties, makes me wonder if they new about the status quo change and decided not to deal with it.
My favorite was Thanos, He wasnt some tortured soul doing something he didnt want to help the world, He was a villain, evil and wanting to destroy everything.
Another thing was, just the callbacks to everything. Hail Hydra being may favorite
I truly think the best moment was when they Said "Shes Got Help" and we see all the Women of the Mcu fight as won.
I feel like this was a true culmination of what we fans have been sitting through, We sat theough the bad, the mediocre and the great, and we got this, A film that pretty much says "This goes out to you" and tips its hat
Also, I can now say "I got a body like a Norse God"
Is Loki In play again? It seems like he might be, but im glad the movie didnt deal too much with ramification of time travel, I hate what films do that.
My favourite moment was Captain Marvel's return. Her, "Hey Peter Parker, what you got for me?", exchange with Peter Parker as she picked up the Infinity Gauntlet baton amused me no end.
I didn't have any major issues with the all girl line up that followed, but let's be honest, she didn't need it.... unless she was a bit tired after having taken down Thanos's cruiser on her tod
EDIT - Oh and Future Nebula and Past Nebula sharing the same wi-fi was a genius plot device
I have to say, I loved this movie, I predicited not to many would die but the Status Quo would be crazy changed and it was so that makes me happy
While I know part of the Netflix canceled was that netflix diddnt see much into the properties, makes me wonder if they new about the status quo change and decided not to deal with it.
My favorite was Thanos, He wasnt some tortured soul doing something he didnt want to help the world, He was a villain, evil and wanting to destroy everything.
Another thing was, just the callbacks to everything. Hail Hydra being may favorite
I truly think the best moment was when they Said "Shes Got Help" and we see all the Women of the Mcu fight as won.
I feel like this was a true culmination of what we fans have been sitting through, We sat theough the bad, the mediocre and the great, and we got this, A film that pretty much says "This goes out to you" and tips its hat
Also, I can now say "I got a body like a Norse God"
Is Loki In play again? It seems like he might be, but im glad the movie didnt deal too much with ramification of time travel, I hate what films do that.
I always kind of thought Netflix was getting rid of their shows because of Disney's new streaming service. I haven't seen where Disney outright said Netflix cannot make more, but I would bet the contracts got more expensive and Netflix just said, it wasn't worth it.
Spoiler:
As to Loki, there's going to be a new series with him as the main focus, so yeah, he is still around in some way. Maybe it will be sort of a "Quantum Leap/Dr. Who type show where Loki hops around human history sewing discord.
Lance845 wrote: It's fine. Like what you like. If you didn't enjoy it then good. Enjoy what you do enjoy.
But I didn't think this was self indulgence in trade for plot. This was earned pay off in service to plot.
Spoiler:
In order for there to be decent writing going forward in the MCU it demanded that something be done about the infinity stones so that they were not always an answer to everything in the MCU going forward. Removing them entirely from the time line is a good answer to that.
The Pyrrhic victory of killing Thanos at the beginning with him removing the stones from existence is great. Thor has been on a downward spiral since Thor 2 and this being the nail in the coffin that breaks him is excellent for his ark.
Time travel to the points when they know the infinity stones are around is a good way for them to both call back to moments that everyone who has been on this ride can find appreciation in AND a great way to get an answer for the snap. Tony's kid is also a great plot element. It means that when they undo the snap its not as if the snap never happened. People are back but the damage has also been done. World need to recover. Many are still devastatingly traumatized. Others need to now find a place in a world that spent 5 years trying to move on from them.
Thors in space with Cap old and Tony dead. When Galactus shows up eventually we don't have to ask where are the power houses of the old Avengers team. They are not here any more. There is now room for Spiderman, Cassie Lang (now roughly spidermans age and able to be Stature), Hawkeyes Daughter (a stand in for Kate Bishop) and others to take a leading role in dealing with the new threats. Or at least for us to watch them grow into positions where they can be those people. They still have mentors. Antman, Wasp, Dr. Strange, Hawkeye proper, Smart Hulk, to point the way and give some mentorship. But there is more room for Peter Parker to do something more than pine for Tonys affection.
This isn't self indulgence for self indulgences sake. This is a logical path that gets to send them off with a trip down memory lane and pave a new path forward.
It was self indulgent in that:
Spoiler:
They used time travel the way they did for the sake of doing fan service callbacks. Time travel opens up huge gaping plot holes that ruin the film's writing for me.
1) It's established in Endgame that at least Dr. Strange is capable of opening a portal from Titan to Earth. We don't know how great that distance is or what the exact requirements for opening a portal is, but we know that the distance is very damn far. Let's make one assumption here, other named wizards are as proficient with portals as he is.
2) It is also established that the person who acquires the Soul Stone is not the only who can use it. Hawkeye is the one who brings it back, but both Hulk and Tony use the the 6 gem gauntlet.
3) There is no real limit to the Pym Particles available. They can a) go steal more from the past (as they did in the movie) or b) figure out how to make more.
The combination of these three factors means that they can essentially travel an infinite amount of times to any point in the space time continuum nearly instantly thanks to portals. They also do not need to sacrifice anyone to acquire the Soul Stone. They also have freaking Ant Man who is expected by no one meaning that they can access most places undetected.
Take the Soul Stone from Thanos while he is passed out Vormir and return it there.
Take the Reality Stone from the Collector.
Take the Power Stone from the planet Quill was on or from the Nova Corps.
Take the Tesseract from the Shield vault.
Take the Mind Stone from the tower anytime after Avengers/before AOU.
Ideally, go deal directly with Strange for the Time Stone and convince that one to help you portal around if the other wizards are sucky.
Snap your fingers, bring everyone back, take the Stones back, roll credits.
Or put in another way Natasha and Tony died due to lazy writing.
This is the problem with Time Travel stories. There is no suspense. You just get to reset and reset over and over again until you win.
What's the fix then to the Thanos paradox? Thanos from the past is killed
in his future/MCU present/EArth 616 (or whatever the designation is). Does
that mean that despite their best intentions to return the Infinity Stones to
the past, do they create a branch universe where Thanos never happens?
And now that present MCU doesn't have Infinity Stones does that open
up the universe to more...cosmic threats?
Or does killing past Thanos repair all that? It happened, but it didn't happen,
so Infinity stones exist, Thanos does not? (I think that would be the paradox
though).
malfred wrote: Question. I haven't followed Marvel in a while.
Spoiler:
What's the fix then to the Thanos paradox? Thanos from the past is killed
in his future/MCU present/EArth 616 (or whatever the designation is). Does
that mean that despite their best intentions to return the Infinity Stones to
the past, do they create a branch universe where Thanos never happens?
And now that present MCU doesn't have Infinity Stones does that open
up the universe to more...cosmic threats?
Or does killing past Thanos repair all that? It happened, but it didn't happen,
so Infinity stones exist, Thanos does not? (I think that would be the paradox
though).
Spoiler:
Banner pretty much says "There is no changinging the Future because once you go to the past, you future is you past"
What he is saying is essentially what has happened has not changed.
But honestly, dont overthink it, Time travel has this reputation for being bad for stories, but really only bad after the fact when people can look at it more critical and nitpick
malfred wrote: Question. I haven't followed Marvel in a while.
Spoiler:
What's the fix then to the Thanos paradox? Thanos from the past is killed
in his future/MCU present/EArth 616 (or whatever the designation is). Does
that mean that despite their best intentions to return the Infinity Stones to
the past, do they create a branch universe where Thanos never happens?
And now that present MCU doesn't have Infinity Stones does that open
up the universe to more...cosmic threats?
Or does killing past Thanos repair all that? It happened, but it didn't happen,
so Infinity stones exist, Thanos does not? (I think that would be the paradox
though).
Spoiler:
Basically, there is now a time line where Thanos and the black order stopped existing in 2014. AND there is a time line where The Infinity stones no longer exist currently (they were broken down into their base atoms, but something like that is likely to reform at some point). I would say the introduction to time travel means Kang The Conqueror is now on the table for future movies.
So just came back having watched it and I must say its an unbridled.... meh, there is so much wrong with this film other than the run time, I actually got bored watching it, the bits I did like were how little captain marvel was in it and the lady avengers part was good, makes me want to see paltrow take up the iron man mantle, they turned thanos into a run of the mill bad guy which I kind of get given that its supposed to be him earlier in his life, still did not like it though, the plot holes created by this film are vast too.... just... meh
Did I blink and miss Phil Coulson? Besides having his own show for 4 (soon 5) seasons he is the one who brought the Avengers together in the first place. I thought it might be the TV vs movies issue but he was in Capt Marvel...
My favourite moment was Captain Marvel's return. Her, "Hey Peter Parker, what you got for me?", exchange with Peter Parker as she picked up the Infinity Gauntlet baton amused me no end.
I didn't have any major issues with the all girl line up that followed, but let's be honest, she didn't need it.... unless she was a bit tired after having taken down Thanos's cruiser on her tod
EDIT - Oh and Future Nebula and Past Nebula sharing the same wi-fi was a genius plot device
On the lineup comment:
Spoiler:
One thing that has kind of nagged at me is that it never felt like the Guardians got a team moment in the fight and I kind of feel like that scene might have played better with Quill making the charge and his friends providing backup. I'm mildly curious if the spat they were having reduced their overall role in the fight, honestly. But yeah, that scene as is was cool and begging to be a poster or wallpaper and only really weird because Carol in no way needed the backup.
Did I blink and miss Phil Coulson? Besides having his own show for 4 (soon 5) seasons he is the one who brought the Avengers together in the first place. I thought it might be the TV vs movies issue but he was in Capt Marvel...
There is no paradox. You cannot change the future by altering the past. Bruce flat out states that. Then the Ancient One further clarifies by telling Bruce that removing the stones from their respective time creates splintered realities, all of which are fixed by returning the stones to where they come from. At the end Steve goes back to 'clip all the branches', avoiding the chance of alternate timelines by returning the stones.
Did I blink and miss Phil Coulson? Besides having his own show for 4 (soon 5) seasons he is the one who brought the Avengers together in the first place. I thought it might be the TV vs movies issue but he was in Capt Marvel...
There is no paradox. You cannot change the future by altering the past. Bruce flat out states that. Then the Ancient One further clarifies by telling Bruce that removing the stones from their respective time creates splintered realities, all of which are fixed by returning the stones to where they come from. At the end Steve goes back to 'clip all the branches', avoiding the chance of alternate timelines by returning the stones.
Re: the stones
Spoiler:
Do you think that's enough for Steve to do that? I mean,
I guess it has to be if the plot says so, but could they use it
to offshoot new alternate reality films? Or is that just crazy
regular comic book talk?
They used time travel the way they did for the sake of doing fan service callbacks. Time travel opens up huge gaping plot holes that ruin the film's writing for me.
1) It's established in Endgame that at least Dr. Strange is capable of opening a portal from Titan to Earth. We don't know how great that distance is or what the exact requirements for opening a portal is, but we know that the distance is very damn far. Let's make one assumption here, other named wizards are as proficient with portals as he is.
Okay. I agree with this. I don't see how this is a plot hole. The Avengers don't know other wizards and clearly they make a habit of keeping them and their world off the radar of everyone else.
Spoiler:
2) It is also established that the person who acquires the Soul Stone is not the only who can use it. Hawkeye is the one who brings it back, but both Hulk and Tony use the the 6 gem gauntlet.
Again, I agree but it's also not a plot hole. It's just a thing that has always been. Acquiring the soul stone is an issue. Once it's out there it's out there and nobody ever says otherwise.
Spoiler:
3) There is no real limit to the Pym Particles available. They can a) go steal more from the past (as they did in the movie) or b) figure out how to make more.
"Figure out how to make more" is silly. It's Hank Pyms life work. The number of people who know how to produce Pym Particles in a form that would be stable and usable is Hank Hope and Janet. All 3 are gone. Hanks protoge takes years, maybe a decade, working with Hank to piece together an UNSTABLE version for himself that kind of drives him mad when he uses them. Nobody there could just "make more".
The reason they can't just go take more in their initial plan is 1) disrupting as little as possible and 2) adding extra complication to a plan thats already hanging by a thread. They did what they did as a last ditch effort.
[spoiler]
The combination of these three factors means that they can essentially travel an infinite amount of times to any point in the space time continuum nearly instantly thanks to portals. They also do not need to sacrifice anyone to acquire the Soul Stone. They also have freaking Ant Man who is expected by no one meaning that they can access most places undetected.
Take the Soul Stone from Thanos while he is passed out Vormir and return it there.
They would need to go to some time before Thanos went to Vormir, find a wizard and convince them to help. Get them to teleport them. The rules of the sling ring portals established in Dr. Strange is that they need to picture where they want to go. The more clear the picture the more likely they are to succeed. I.E. they need a wizard who has been to Vormir to send them to Vormir. Then, after finding this person that does not exist they need to know the moment when Thanos was passed out there. Since he was alone, nobody knows that. So... more good fething luck.
Spoiler:
Take the Reality Stone from the Collector.
The idea being that the collector would have no defenses? Thor at least has the advantage of walking into his home and knowing down to the room it was in. They go after the collector they have no idea where exactly he was keeping it and it turns into a search/heist/battle to get it. No. Taking it from the recovering Jane Foster is the safer bet. See needing a Wizard who can teleport them to Nowhere.
Spoiler:
Take the Power Stone from the planet Quill was on or from the Nova Corps.
They did the first, they would have to convince or fight the Nova Corps for the other. See needing a wizard who can teleport them to Xandar or Morag.
Spoiler:
Take the Tesseract from the Shield vault.
Now, being a earth, it is significantly MORE likely to succeed reaching a shield base with a sling ring. At least they can appear outside and then go room they can see to room they can see. That being said, again, they would have to fight their way through it all.
Spoiler:
Take the Mind Stone from the tower anytime after Avengers/before AOU.
It wasn't in the tower. It was in Project Pegasus with Strucker under Hydra control. And they only KNOW it was there when they attacked at the beginning of AoU. They don't know WHEN it arrived there or anywhere it was in between the 2.
Spoiler:
Ideally, go deal directly with Strange for the Time Stone and convince that one to help you portal around if the other wizards are sucky.
It COULD work except it splits up the team even more. Having more people to back each other up is better then going alone. Thats why it was such an advantage to go to the battle of NY and try to grab 3 stones at once. See how thin the thread the plan was hanging on was. Nobody making this plan knew where Pym was until Tony remembers his fathers Journals mentioning the tesseract and working with Pym.
Spoiler:
Snap your fingers, bring everyone back, take the Stones back, roll credits.
Or put in another way Natasha and Tony died due to lazy writing.
This is the problem with Time Travel stories. There is no suspense. You just get to reset and reset over and over again until you win.
They didn't get to reset. Any Natasha they try to recover would be a time displaced one who did not experience all the events between when they picked her up and when she died. Tony dies because it's the only way. Dr. Strange shows tony his 1 finger, saying "In only one version do we win" just as tony is thinking of making the sacrifice play. Tony had to die. If he didn't the universe would have been unmade.
Do you think that's enough for Steve to do that? I mean,
I guess it has to be if the plot says so, but could they use it
to offshoot new alternate reality films? Or is that just crazy
regular comic book talk?
Spoiler:
There is a series that is going to be on Disney Plus that is What If? I imagine that whole series is going to be alternate reality stories.
malfred wrote: Disney plus almost gets me for that. Almost.
Well 70.00 a year. Animated What If with the first episode announced to be What If Peggy Carter took the super soldier serum? and getting almost every actor back for the voices (i imagine hugo weaving is out for red skull but just about everyone else is back). Winder Solder and the Falcon live action series. Scarlett Witch and the Vision live action series. Loki live action series. Starwars: The Mandalorian. Plus the massive catalog of Disney, Mavel, SW, and Fox properties just about all of that on release day.
I... honestly can't figure out why anyone would choose any other streaming service over Disney Plus at that price point.
I just hope the interface is not Hulu's complete gak one.
One Disney+ rreleases im gonna keep that and Netflix(For the original movies and shows) and drop Hulu.
They said every single movie disney has produced will be there.
Hell we may get Song of The South
Cap having a life with Peggy doesn't actually interfere with the timeline, so far as I can think?
Provided Peggy is sworn to secrecy, everything still pans out as we've seen in the past 21 movies. After all, he's still a Capsicle until he's found in The First Avenger?
I saw, it was awesome. Everything I could have hoped for. Although there was 1 thing that occurred to me after the fact:
Spoiler:
Thor's arc, while funny and made a lot of sense with all he had been through, really takes a step backwards from his arc in Ragnarok. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I mean he went through so much, losing Frigga and Odin, his home, etc yet still found it in himself to take leadership of his people. But losing his bro and half of his people and falling to stop Thanos was all it took to revert him back to a time when he didn't want to rule. That part, I could see, but then once they do stop Thanos and everyone is back, he passes it on to Valkerie? I guess it works since she was probably the "real" leader while Thor was being all depressed. It just kinda makes all his character development in Ragnarok seem hollow. That's really the only complaint I could possibly give to the movie
But, we'll see what happens in Gaurdians Vol.3: Asgardians of the Galaxy. Hopefully he loses the dad-bod and Quill gets a bit more mature and less jealous of him
Thor's journey in this sort of echoes Loki's journey across the MCU films - he doesn't need to be what everyone thinks he should be. Loki didn't need to be the trickster villain, and while Thor proved he could be the new ruler of Asgard, this film ends up with him realising it's not what he wants to be, and there are others better suited to the job.
As for GotG 3, is that going to be the Guardians looking for Linda Gamora, while dodging Adam?
trexmeyer wrote: I thought it was a very mediocre film that is borderline Rotten for non MCU fans. Depending on how much of a fanboy/girl you are, you will either like or love the film. Personally, I disliked it enough that I'm probably not going to bother paying any attention to the MCU anymore. TLDR: Don't expect good writing in a comic book film.
Spoiler:
It started off strong. Another excellent cold open, the collective shock of killing Thanos, but realizing that solved nothing, and even after that there were some great moments. Thor/Cap/Iron Man 3v1 vs Thanos, Iron Man hugging Spider Man when he returned, Wanda taking on Thanos alone and forcing him to call in a freaking Orbital Bombardment. But outside of those...the film felt like little more than cornball fan service.
All of the Time Heist scenes were dreadful. I genuinely don't understand who finds the idea of Tony discussing parenting with his dad prior to Tony's birth interesting or meaningful. This is literally Hallmark Channel movie quality writing. Cap fights himself and groans at his catch phrase, cue laughter. Seriously? Oh, and the prosthetics for Thor's fat bod were awful. Like, is that really the best you can do? BSG got roasted for fat Lee Adama back in the day because weight gain isn't plot or character development.
Eh, there's just too much about this film that I can criticize. I'm really amazed that it is receiving the positive reception that it has been, but I guess people enjoy being coddled.
Just come back from seeing it and agree with much of this. Now, my perception might be a little coloured by the ignorant arsehole next to me who wouldn't stop looking at her phone, which spoiled my enjoyment of much of this- so I will go back for a rewatch with my free tickets I got in compensation But a lot of this film fell flat for me.
Spoiler:
I'll say this, I loved the start (and the ending)- even though killing off Thanos left the film directionless for much of its second act without a villain and far too much comedy was squashed in to this area. Now, a bit of comedy is good to break up the dourness but it is not balanced at all, Thanos would be displeased. It was too much mood whiplash to go from literally decapitating your big bad of the last decade and Thor (who later turns into God of the Neckbeards for reasons...) makes a witty quip to what should be a shocking scene.
In the middle I was just thinking "Pick a lane, movie!" Does it want to be funny? Oh look here's Neckbeard Thor in a fatsuit! Here's Hulk dabbing! But all this is for a serious mission so you're whipped back to that. BIG problem with the middle was the MAJOR continuity error. No, Disney- the first Avengers film took place in 2009. It came out in 2012 (They also made this error in Infinity War too when Stark says "Thanos has been in (his) head for the last 6 years"). You established this as fact in Spider-Man Homecoming yet ignore it here, not to even mention Parker coming back his school. Either every main Spider-Man character got snapped or someone fethed up.
The ending. Loved it. Massive rumble that the film spent far too much time getting too. It was worth the wait but it spent far too much time dicking around to get there.
I have a feeling I'll like this better on a rewatch due to things outside the cinema's control. I was a bit meh on Rogue One too due to needing the loo near the end and just desperately wanting the film to end, but loved it on a rewatch and is now one of my favourite Star Wars films, but I digress...
I believe the Russos have basically stated that the 2009 date for the Battle of NY in Homecoming was the mistake, as everything else has kept the timeline broadly consistent.
Paradigm wrote: I believe the Russos have basically stated that the 2009 date for the Battle of NY in Homecoming was the mistake, as everything else has kept the timeline broadly consistent.
I wish they would out and out say this as there are loads of (maybe perceived) timeline screwups like this. People have come up with their own timelines but I've never seen an official one from Disney themselves.
Probably the first movie with lots of time travel I didn't hate simply because they stated upfront how the time travel would work and and stuck to those rules. And they used it for lots of great nostalgia inducing moments.
Gael Knight wrote: I think RLM had a pretty good review for it. I agree with Jay's assessment that Captain Marvel takes away from Tony's sacrifice.
Spoiler:
Floating in space and getting rescued makes him appreciate what he could have
lost and makes us the audience appreciate what he's risking to have another go
at Thanos.
...... any movie that relies on time travel to resolve the central crisis is treading a fine line of very weak writing.....
I think it’s less that the movie relied on it to resolve the crisis, and more that the crisis was created in a way to make an excuse to use it. Like, we want to do that, how do we set it up that they need to do that?
...... any movie that relies on time travel to resolve the central crisis is treading a fine line of very weak writing.....
I think it’s less that the movie relied on it to resolve the crisis, and more that the crisis was created in a way to make an excuse to use it. Like, we want to do that, how do we set it up that they need to do that?
Spoiler:
Now you're just paraphrasing their solution to accurately travelling from the film.
Who would have guessed the universe would have been decided over a game of “touch-football”? And my favorite part was when Steve took up Mjolnir, as we expected to see back in Avengers 1. This movie was made for the fans and it showed. It was amazing. I can’t even begin to describe how happy I was with the performance I witnessed on the screen. And I expected Clint to die, not Natasha. I know if Whedon directed it, he WOULD have killed the family man. Anyway...just WOW!! Glad Cap got his happily ever after too!
Who would have guessed the universe would have been decided over a game of “touch-football”? And my favorite part was when Steve took up Mjolnir, as we expected to see back in Avengers 1. This movie was made for the fans and it showed. It was amazing. I can’t even begin to describe how happy I was with the performance I witnessed on the screen. And I expected Clint to die, not Natasha. I know if Whedon directed it, he WOULD have killed the family man. Anyway...just WOW!! Glad Cap got his happily ever after too!
Spoiler:
I thought Cap trying to pick up mjolnir was in Age of Ultron?
the happier I am about it. It bodes really well for the future of the MCU and the introduction of new properties.
Spoiler:
Think about it. With the rules now established if they do Days of Future Past then Cable/Bishop would be coming back in time to create divergent timelines where their hell futures don't come to pass. But it doesn't destroy their time line. They still exist. Things still happen. They just try to make something different and better come about in the newly created time line.
I thought the movie was okay. Not all that good, but not all that great. The first part (Infinity War) was better in my opinion. Ironically, Thanos second, suposedly more insane plan, was saner then the first. I thought the ending for Captain America was fairly lame and I don't think it respects the rules they set out to do. The sacrifice scene was excellent though, lots of fake-out. The feminine Avenger assemble was fairly lame and nearly out of place. I was dissapointed by the lack of Hulk smash.
Spoiler:
the death of Tony Stark was good if expected, but I would rather his last message was for the characters of the movie instead of a 4-wall message to the audience.
I quite like the fem avengers bit, which is quite a shocker for some of you on here I assume haha.
But on the whole I agree with you, the movie was "meh" for me, Infinity war was better for me, Caps ending totally breaks the canon of the series to this point in such a major way that I am surprised they did it, but then they probably just assumed no one would care, Tony taking the stones was awesome but I am slightly pissed they killed thanos off, they also broke their own rules with gamorah as they stated that there is no way to bring people back after sacrificing them to the soul stone, except if you bring them back from the past... sooooooooooooooooooooooo, just go get her and screw that time line
they RUINED Hulk, we got no payoff from the last film.
That's twice in two days I've been disappointed. GoT's Long Night was a bag of hot air and nothing else, and Endgame was... meh. Glad I watched it but I feel no need to ever watch it again. It's simply not noteworthy enough.
One big let down for me was the lack of conclusion to the Hulk is afraid arc that began in Infinity War. That had legs and room for character growth and a big "the Hulk is back" scene. Instead they do something with the Hulk that felt like a lot of nothing.
I'm trying to remember any scene in the film that was memorable and the only two that stand out are Cap doing the big thing at the end (hooray!) and the blatant women only scene that was like putting a handbrake on proceedings (boo!).
I quite like the fem avengers bit, which is quite a shocker for some of you on here I assume haha.
But on the whole I agree with you, the movie was "meh" for me, Infinity war was better for me, Caps ending totally breaks the canon of the series to this point in such a major way that I am surprised they did it, but then they probably just assumed no one would care, Tony taking the stones was awesome but I am slightly pissed they killed thanos off, they also broke their own rules with gamorah as they stated that there is no way to bring people back after sacrificing them to the soul stone, except if you bring them back from the past... sooooooooooooooooooooooo, just go get her and screw that time line
they RUINED Hulk, we got no payoff from the last film.
Spoiler:
I will say that while I thought it was a cool moment of cinema, the scene was decidedly forced. Like, what reason was there for the women, and only the women, to suddenly gather up like that and do cool gak other than because someone in a board room said "we should have all the girl avengers gather up and do some cool gak." I don't disagree that it was cool, but I also can't really see it as organic to the story. Then again, the entire movie was filled to the brim with nostalgia and fan service, so it's not really that out of place.
I quite like the fem avengers bit, which is quite a shocker for some of you on here I assume haha.
But on the whole I agree with you, the movie was "meh" for me, Infinity war was better for me, Caps ending totally breaks the canon of the series to this point in such a major way that I am surprised they did it, but then they probably just assumed no one would care, Tony taking the stones was awesome but I am slightly pissed they killed thanos off, they also broke their own rules with gamorah as they stated that there is no way to bring people back after sacrificing them to the soul stone, except if you bring them back from the past... sooooooooooooooooooooooo, just go get her and screw that time line
they RUINED Hulk, we got no payoff from the last film.
Spoiler:
I will say that while I thought it was a cool moment of cinema, the scene was decidedly forced. Like, what reason was there for the women, and only the women, to suddenly gather up like that and do cool gak other than because someone in a board room said "we should have all the girl avengers gather up and do some cool gak." I don't disagree that it was cool, but I also can't really see it as organic to the story. Then again, the entire movie was filled to the brim with nostalgia and fan service, so it's not really that out of place.
Spoiler:
I'll disagree that it was cool, it was far too forced to be cool - it was a bit the "How do you do, fellow kids." of movie scenes. It's why the whole subject gets tiresome - nobody is content with simply showing/seeing good characters who are also women doing cool and interesting things as part of the story and letting that speak for itself, it has to be made into A Thing, and I can't work out who it's really for except the movie execs themselves as a pat on the back, or the tiny part of the audience who're incapable of switching off their Activist Brain for even one single nanosecond. People say "young girls need to see this kind of thing", but I'd ask what they get out of that kind of scene that they wouldn't get out of a regular women+men+aliens+deities+gamma-mutants "Avengers Moment"? I've seen it argued it's about driving home "the message" to people who get angry at lady supey-heroes, but shoving things they don't like in people's faces is, scientifically speaking, the worst way to persuade them of anything. If the target audience is people who're already fine with female heroes, well, most of us seem to find it just cringey rather than inspirational or profound.
You "normalise" something by treating it as exactly that; normal, everyday, unexceptional. Presenting it as A Thing does exactly the opposite, marking it out as unusual and worthy of specific comment.
My fav bit of the whole movie is when Wanda utterly wrecks Thanos and he has to cheat to get her away from him.
I didn't need another moment where all the main female characters suddenly show up at the same moment to 'support' the biggest brick gak house in the entire MCU who needs help from nobody to show how "powerful" the women are. Wanda did that all by herself just by being herself, and it was never forced and never came across as pandering.
The whole A-Force moment makes no logical or geographical sense.
I quite like the fem avengers bit, which is quite a shocker for some of you on here I assume haha.
But on the whole I agree with you, the movie was "meh" for me, Infinity war was better for me, Caps ending totally breaks the canon of the series to this point in such a major way that I am surprised they did it, but then they probably just assumed no one would care, Tony taking the stones was awesome but I am slightly pissed they killed thanos off, they also broke their own rules with gamorah as they stated that there is no way to bring people back after sacrificing them to the soul stone, except if you bring them back from the past... sooooooooooooooooooooooo, just go get her and screw that time line
they RUINED Hulk, we got no payoff from the last film.
Spoiler:
I will say that while I thought it was a cool moment of cinema, the scene was decidedly forced. Like, what reason was there for the women, and only the women, to suddenly gather up like that and do cool gak other than because someone in a board room said "we should have all the girl avengers gather up and do some cool gak." I don't disagree that it was cool, but I also can't really see it as organic to the story. Then again, the entire movie was filled to the brim with nostalgia and fan service, so it's not really that out of place.
these movies have forced moments of "Cool" all the time
Like when in 1, the Avengers all posed infront of Loki right when he woke up, Forced and not organic but cool.
I dont go to movies for "Natural and Organic" I go for cool
I cant argue with any of that, yes it was forced, yes we all know why it was done, visually I found it cool though for the same reason as the same scene at the start of age of ultron, I just liked the look of it.
Either way the MCU is about to go through an interesting period of change, I can see it going either way from this point on if DC continues to gain ground and Marvel screws up the next decade could be all about the DCEU, cant wait to find out
It depends, they have several sequels planned and with the Acquisition of Fox, two teams of heroes that are pretty popular.
Now, My fear/concern is what is going to be done for crossovers now? the OG heroes are gone and no Central Conflict they where building too, even if it was slowly, all the Avengers movies directly or indirectly delt with thanos(Ultron not really, but the conflict got started because of him) and we where searching for signs of the stones in all movies.
Maybe we get secret wars.
People are complaining about Wanda standing up to Thanos when in the Xmen comics didn't she once take away all the powers of every mutant on Earth?
I personally thought the movie was great. There was no really obvious "Why didn't Dr. Strange just sling-ring Thanos' arm off at the elbow" scenes like in Infinity War.
Spoiler:
The time travel mechanic was actually well done, for once, avoiding thousands of paradoxes like usually crop up. They were effectively stealing other alternate universes' stones, rather than their own. Same with Gamora. She is essentially a stranded citizen from another universe at this point, which gets around the rules of the Soul Stone. Plus adds good drama to the next Guardians movie as Peter tries to get his lost love back.
AegisGrimm wrote: People are complaining about Wanda standing up to Thanos when in the Xmen comics didn't she once take away all the powers of every mutant on Earth?
Spoiler:
Much more then the lame female assemble scene, Wanda pretty much beating Thanos was an example of strong female scene (and maybe a forewarning about the potential danger she could come to be). That and Captain Marvel fight against Thanos in the movie finale were definitely good moments for the female cast.
BTW, where the feth did Valkyrie found a winged horse? Is it cool, yes, but where did she found it. It's not like she had it in Ragnarok.
Cap time travels between 1945 and 2023 fixing stuff with nothing but his wits, his broken shield, his time travel watch and Mjolnir.
Oh AND a holographic disguise machine.
So basically Quantum Leap, with superheros, and you don't know which character is Cap until he suddenly hits Nixon in the family jewels with Mjolnir and zaps back into the time stream.
So you really only need Chris Evens for a few minutes an episode.
AegisGrimm wrote: People are complaining about Wanda standing up to Thanos when in the Xmen comics didn't she once take away all the powers of every mutant on Earth?
People are complaining about Wanda TK'ing Thanos within an inch of his life? That was my fav bit in the entire film.
It's a female character in pop culture. Like it not, feel about it how you want, valid or not, someone somewhere is complaining about it. EDIT: You may replace "female" with other words. This statement still holds true
I get the one scene cause I can complain about it myself a bit. Not that much though. I do think Wanda and Black Widows moments on screen though were excellent. Excellent continuations of how their characters have been developed in the films. Pepper probably deserves some props too. For someone who only really got two scenes in the movie, she really sold the long suffering love who accepted things as they were for better or worse.
Yeah, anyone who complains about Captain Marvels power level is an idiot. Wanda is clearly the most powerful person in the MCU when she really lets loose.
LordofHats wrote: Pepper probably deserves some props too. For someone who only really got two scenes in the movie, she really sold the long suffering love who accepted things as they were for better or worse.
Pepper is another great tragedy of the film. I mean that's probably all the Rescue we're ever going to get on screen.
Lance845 wrote: Yeah, anyone who complains about Captain Marvels power level is an idiot. Wanda is clearly the most powerful person in the MCU when she really lets loose.
I guess people got affraid that Marvel would pull the same trick DC did to try to buy back some of Superman credibility as a character in the DCCU by punching the villain twice while making funny quips and saving the day while the others are basically demoted to extras.
PS: I was pleasantly surprised by Pepper's reaction to Tony's ending. It showed some growth in both character.
PPS: Is it just me or does the haircut of future Captain Marvel is atrocious and so is the fancy version of future Thor.
I quite like the fem avengers bit, which is quite a shocker for some of you on here I assume haha.
But on the whole I agree with you, the movie was "meh" for me, Infinity war was better for me, Caps ending totally breaks the canon of the series to this point in such a major way that I am surprised they did it, but then they probably just assumed no one would care, Tony taking the stones was awesome but I am slightly pissed they killed thanos off, they also broke their own rules with gamorah as they stated that there is no way to bring people back after sacrificing them to the soul stone, except if you bring them back from the past... sooooooooooooooooooooooo, just go get her and screw that time line
they RUINED Hulk, we got no payoff from the last film.
Spoiler:
I will say that while I thought it was a cool moment of cinema, the scene was decidedly forced. Like, what reason was there for the women, and only the women, to suddenly gather up like that and do cool gak other than because someone in a board room said "we should have all the girl avengers gather up and do some cool gak." I don't disagree that it was cool, but I also can't really see it as organic to the story. Then again, the entire movie was filled to the brim with nostalgia and fan service, so it's not really that out of place.
Spoiler:
I'll disagree that it was cool, it was far too forced to be cool - it was a bit the "How do you do, fellow kids." of movie scenes. It's why the whole subject gets tiresome - nobody is content with simply showing/seeing good characters who are also women doing cool and interesting things as part of the story and letting that speak for itself, it has to be made into A Thing, and I can't work out who it's really for except the movie execs themselves as a pat on the back, or the tiny part of the audience who're incapable of switching off their Activist Brain for even one single nanosecond. People say "young girls need to see this kind of thing", but I'd ask what they get out of that kind of scene that they wouldn't get out of a regular women+men+aliens+deities+gamma-mutants "Avengers Moment"? I've seen it argued it's about driving home "the message" to people who get angry at lady supey-heroes, but shoving things they don't like in people's faces is, scientifically speaking, the worst way to persuade them of anything. If the target audience is people who're already fine with female heroes, well, most of us seem to find it just cringey rather than inspirational or profound.
You "normalise" something by treating it as exactly that; normal, everyday, unexceptional. Presenting it as A Thing does exactly the opposite, marking it out as unusual and worthy of specific comment.
Lance845 wrote: Yeah, anyone who complains about Captain Marvels power level is an idiot. Wanda is clearly the most powerful person in the MCU when she really lets loose.
I guess people got affraid that Marvel would pull the same trick DC did to try to buy back some of Superman credibility as a character in the DCCU by punching the villain twice while making funny quips and saving the day while the others are basically demoted to extras.
Spoiler:
It was a pretty good way to handle a character with a Superman-esque power level--just set things up so they're out in space dealing with cosmic stuff for most of the movie, and can't just show up to trivialise other characters.
Just for another data point, I enjoyed the girls' team-up moment. Cheesy, but it looked so cool I just didn't care. And on a meta level, I could see it as a "Don't worry." after Black Widow, the only girl in the Avengers treehouse for a while, got killed off.
Also, this is probably just me, but....
Spoiler:
For the scene in Tokyo, I swear I was wondering if it would be Deadpool. Just the setup of a faceless guy with a sword killing Japanese gangsters reminded me of DP2.
For the scene in Tokyo, I swear I was wondering if it would be Deadpool. Just the setup of a faceless guy with a sword killing Japanese gangsters reminded me of DP2.
Spoiler:
As the movie was wrapping up after Tony snapped his fingers I literally thought "is this it? Does X-Men exist now?" and the image I had was Deadpool, voiced by Ryan Renolds, just popping into the scene after the big battle and breaking the fourth wall about how bs the ending is while all the other characters stare wondering who the feth he is. It would have completely ruined the moment, sure, but it would have been worth it for the hilarity.
One of the ongoing subjects of discussion regarding Marvel’s vast live-action empire has revolved around the use of tv heroes in the big Marvel Studios films; such as any of the Netflix Marvel’s The Defenders members showing up in Avengers: Endgame.
It’s worth noting, if you HAVEN’T SEEN Avengers: Endgame yet, there will be spoilers here.
Screenwriters Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely just spoke with The New York Times after the release of the 22nd live-action Marvel Studios feature film, and tackled this very question.
Why didn’t Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Danny Rand (Iron Fist), Matt Murdock (Daredevil), or Frank Castle (The Punisher) show up during the big giant battle against Thanos when the rest of the MCU did?
“We would have to introduce these five characters — or whatever many,” McFeely said. “We already are assuming people have seen a lot of the movies. Are we really going to assume they have bought a subscription to Netflix and watched those shows enough so that when they see them, they’re going to go ‘yay?'”
Of course, there was the hat tip to ABC’s cancelled-too-soon Agent Carter with James D’Arcy appearing as Edwin Jarvis in a trip to the past.
The addition of the Netflix heroes and the ABC Marvel Television heroes (including The Inhumans) “screws up the timelines,” Markus added. “You would have to assume that they all got snapped away, or otherwise they might have shown up earlier. I think the only character who has come from TV to the movies is Jarvis.”
On the female Avengers scene, seeing people asking "Who is this for?", well, my wife loved it. My niece loved it. My sister loved it. I guess that is who it was for?
Actually I loved it too, and yeah, it was gimmicky, but these films are full of gimmicks so I don't see why anyone needs to get upset about this specific one.
If I had a criticism it would be that one quick scene does not really make up for having to wait til this year to finally get a female superhero movie from Marvel. They could have managed one much earlier, and this does seem like trying to rush in and get credit when you haven't done the work.
But it was a cool scene and made my wife grin ear to ear, so I like it.
I figure they need a wee break while they figure out what to do next, but I wonder if the financial imperative will allow for that? I love this series of movies and have enjoyed all of them, genuinely, even Thor 2 and the Hulk movie (really under rated in my opinion!). But I think they've done it now, landed the plane in a way I never thought they would be able to at the start. I have been really skeptical so many times. I didn't think they could make Cap or Thor work in their own movies. Then I didn't think they could manage an Avengers team up. Then I didn't think they could maintain the quaility across the sequels. I thought Guardians of the Galaxy was not gonna work. I thought Thor Ragnarok would be absolutely mediocre at best. I always thought selling giant purple scrotum face as the big villain was going to be impossible. I have never enjoyed being wrong more! And then in my view they capped it all off with this movie which is a celebration of the previous 11 years of film making. Time for a breather I feel like. But we have Far From Home and Black Panther 2 lined up, and I have to admit, I am excited for both movies.
As a comics nerd since I was really small, I feel incredibly lucky that I got to see this. I remember when Superhero movies were mostly pretty bad but I watched them all anyway. Getting to see this work on screen has been wonderful. I never understand people who claim to be comic fans who are so negative about what these films have achieved. I get to share huge sprawling comic crossovers with my wife and watch her excitement, remembering my own excitement the first time I read a big crossover comic as a kid. The richest movie studio in the world is basically pandering directly to me and people like me, and it is awesome
The only complaint I had with the all Female Heroes scene is that it took me out of the movie for just a moment. It was cool, and I enjoyd it, but then I immediately was like: "Wait, why and how did all the estrogen get to this one section of the battle at once? Did they plan that? Like did some of them yell 'Hey all girls over here, no boys allowed!'" So while cool, it took me out of the movie for a moment
Yeah, the reason most people I think dont feel its natural is cause they are women.
Who cares if it is natural if it makes someone smile?
This entire battle aint natural. The headlong charge? kinda dumb.
I did love we got to see more chitauri though
It’s stupid, but if they Didn’t have the female heroes be the ones to beat up Proxima instead of the males, could you imagine the uproar on the internet? A couple of guys beating up a woman on screen?
AduroT wrote: It’s stupid, but if they Didn’t have the female heroes be the ones to beat up Proxima instead of the males, could you imagine the uproar on the internet? A couple of guys beating up a woman on screen?
Nobody cried when Arnold killed his fake wife in Total Recall (or in the remake). Nobody cried when Phasma got beaten by Finn. Villainess are usually fair game for violence, especially if they aren't pretty (like Proxima) and use violence to oppose the hero instead of seduction, lies, etc. Genre also has an impact. We tolerate and love crazy killer who kill innocent women. I would have had no problem with male superheroes fighting her and in fact thought strange that to normal human women could tackle someone with superhuman strength.
I for one love the new comic book accurate Captain Marvel haircut. The mohawk through the helmet was cool and all, but the pixie cut fits the character better, and looks damn hot on Brie Larson, too.
Spoiler:
The girl power moment was no goofier than all the other pairups that just 'happened' to pop up in the chaos, like Tony and Pepper spiralling around each other. Its the comic version of Rule of Cool
Putting aside the logical and geographical issues that scene had, the other main reason it doesn't work is because it's so hollow and cynical - a bit of "grrl power" pandering that jumps out from the rest of that sequence because of out of place it is.
At least with Tony and Pepper you can say that they're flying around and them meeting up makes some level of sense. Hope just abandoning Scott and the van to pose with Carol? Mantis being there at all? What?
I thought it was cool because it’s an obvious A-Force Easter egg, I like all of those characters, and I knew people on the internet would be butthurt about it.
Is it pandering? Hell yes it is. But so is Cap saying, “Avengers... assemble!” while standing there and having Thanos and his army give them enough time to slingring in and pose for splash page.
the only issue with the girl moment was Mantis. I played it out in my head like:
Mantis: (touches slobbering monster-soldier) Ooohhh, I'm feeling that you hate me and want to kill me...
Slobbering Monster-soldier #8349: Graaaawwwr!!!! (Stabs Mantis in the chest)
Mantis: (perplexed gurgling sounds)
the only issue with the girl moment was Mantis. I played it out in my head like:
Mantis: (touches slobbering monster-soldier) Ooohhh, I'm feeling that you hate me and want to kill me...
Slobbering Monster-soldier #8349: Graaaawwwr!!!! (Stabs Mantis in the chest)
Mantis: (perplexed gurgling sounds)
Spoiler:
Mantis has been with the guardians long enough. Between Gamora, Rocket, and Quill she would have learned to fight in their rag tag weird, fly by the seat of your pants kind of way. In a big mash up with other people helping you out she can slip in, use her powers to disorient people, and probably slip a knife in between their ribs. I am A'Okay with Mantis being in a line up. Shes not the toughest or the best, but she works well with a team or she wouldn't still be alive with the Guardians.
Nothing, as long as it's organic to the story being told and logical for the situation at hand, of which that shot in Endgame was neither.
Compare it to, say, Okoye and Widow coming to rescue Wanda in Infinity War. That "She's not alone!" made sense in the context of the film. All the women showing up at one exact spot (especially Hope), to "help" someone who needed no help, was not organic or logical. It was a hollow and cynical gesture.
Nothing, as long as it's organic to the story being told and logical for the situation at hand, of which that shot in Endgame was neither.
Compare it to, say, Okoye and Widow coming to rescue Wanda in Infinity War. That "She's not alone!" made sense in the context of the film. All the women showing up at one exact spot (especially Hope), to "help" someone who needed no help, was not organic or logical. It was a hollow and cynical gesture.
Indeed, moments of "girl power" are always welcome in my book, but they have to be genuine moment of "girl power" like the power reveal of Captain Marvel, the duel between Wanda and Thanos, Hope introduction as the Wasp, Wonder Woman in the no man's land, Furiosa killing Immortin Joe, Black Widow sacrifice, etc. I don't want a corporate check-list of "things to do to please the female and feminist demographic". Lip service and tokenism is just as insulting as being ignored.
Soo like, are yall mad at the Shot at avengers where they all stood posing over Loki?
OR the shot where Thanos Just waits for the rest of the army?
Cause those are not natural?
Again, these movies are chock full of moments that are not natural.
Who gives a feth if it isnt Natural when it is cool?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Soo like, are yall mad at the Shot at avengers where they all stood posing over Loki?
The silly part of that scene isn't that all the avengers stood posing over Loki. It makes complete sense that after finishing up his mook army they'd go make sure he didn't Loki away or anything.
The silly part of that scene is that Loki conveniently remained unconscious until the Avengers finished off his army and arrived to collect him, but there wasn't anything else going on at that point so...
OR the shot where Thanos Just waits for the rest of the army?
Because Thanos would gloat like an arrogant jack ass flaunting his overinflated sense of self-righteousness to the last man standing? That seems pretty in character for the guy actually.
Again, these movies are chock full of moments that are not natural.
True. But but they didn't call attention to themselves by happening in the middle of some big battle (where several characters were already shown as being involved with other things just seconds earlier). I mean I can sardonically point out that in Avengers literally no one sticks to the plan Cap laid out for the final battle and characters just conveniently appeared places to do cool gak the entire time, and it is basically the same thing.
It doesn't really bother me, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't notice the very obvious forced nature of the cool set pieces and how they don't remotely fit into the narrative on their own.
Who gives a feth if it isnt Natural when it is cool?
I'm sure the people who made Sucker Punch, Suicide Squad, Justice League, and a horde of other god awful action flicks said the same thing. The rule of cool doesn't really stand on its own very well.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Soo like, are yall mad at the Shot at avengers where they all stood posing over Loki?
The silly part of that scene isn't that all the avengers stood posing over Loki. It makes complete sense that after finishing up his mook army they'd go make sure he didn't Loki away or anything.
The silly part of that scene is that Loki conveniently remained unconscious until the Avengers finished off his army and arrived to collect him, but there wasn't anything else going on at that point so...
I suspect that Loki was out of it for a while after getting Hulksmashed. The Avengers probably spent an hour standing around discussing which one-liner they should use before he finally woke up.
Tannhauser42 wrote: But was that moment really all that different from so many of the other fan service moments that were also impractical?
The difference, at least in my head, is that other fans service moments involved characters that had actually MET prior to that. For example, the 360 of the original 6 Avengers was a cool moment they brought back for Endgame. It's iconic and also made sense. They had to gather together to determine their game plan.
Tony and Pepper fighting back to back also makes sense. Tony made that suit for Pepper and they would naturally want to be near each other, being married and all.
But Pepper, Valkerie and Mantis, just as an example 3, have probably never met before that moment.
While it was definitely a cool moment, it broke my suspension of disbeilf for just a second (which, say a lot considering how willing people can believe the other unrealistic stuff going on)
Another moment that I didn't think too much of at the time, but stick out to me now:
Spoiler:
When all the snapped characters return via Dr Strange and crew sling rings, it sure was nice of Thanos to hold his army back until everyone showed up.
I watched it yesterday, I really liked it although I think Infinity War was better.
Thanos stole the show just like last time, they should really do an Thanos: Origins about him building his army, recruiting his acolytes and beginning the quest to bring balance to the cosmos one planet at a time.
Spoiler:
One question I did have is that the Ancient One in timeline 2 said that without the stones her universe would be overrun by darkness. Since the triumphant Thanos destroyed the stones in universe 1, doesn't that mean that universe is doomed to be overrun by darkness?
And since we're all being pernickety, did anyone notice how most the 'heros' were interested in getting back at Thanos mainly because they had bruised egos about losing? Not very heroic!
For instance, once the six stones are in the glove, why not achieve much the same thing, by Snapping into existence double the galaxies, rather than halving the inhabitants?
But he’s not without smarts.
Spoiler:
Hence we see him destroy the stones with a second snap. Hence why his earlier self sees the flaw in the initial plan, and conceives of a second way to achieve his plan.
But that’s part of his attraction as a character. He’s incredibly driven. He genuinely believes he’s doing The Right Thing. If he had any doubts, he’d have long flagged and given up, given the sheer scale of the task he assigned to himself.
It’s a very strong character, and that we can understand, if not accept his motivation only adds to that.
AduroT wrote: I think her concern was not having it on hand for Strange to use when he did to stop his big world ending threat in his movie.
Yup, this. Dormamu would have successfully invaded without the time stone.
Yea I get that, but it sounded like she was speaking more generally to me. Almost like without the power of the infinity stones it would be almost impossible to protect the universe from threating creatures like, but not limited to Dormamu.
IIRC, she was also talking about a lack of balance that would be caused by removing one stone from existence while leaving the others, hence Bruce's idea to return the stone immediately after it's removed.
Frazzled wrote: Yes if you control time space matter etc. just double the resources, half the resources needed etc.
Turns out he's just a psychopath after all.
It was pointed out in the Infinity War thread last year, but the reason he didn't do this was "nobody would learn a lesson and it would just happen all over again". The part he didn't think of was that 1000 years in the future, he'd be gone, everyone who survived the cull would be gone, and it would just be a myth of legend. But in his mind's eye, he's right; in the immediate time, people wouldn't learn any lessons if they suddenly just gained a whole ton without a travesty to "give it" to them. The cull (or Snap) made the survivors remember what they lost and appreciate what they still had (again, in his mind's eye). He's driven, he honestly believes he's doing the right thing, and his reasoning is sound. But he sees the immediate future, and not a millennia into the future when the same thing will happen again, and his Infinity War passes into the realm of legend. So he's right and wrong all in the same breath.
Still all adds agency to him. And those who oppose him.
Ideal medium? Assuming his physical frame could handle it?
First Snap as is.
Lecture the Universe on sustainability.
Second Snap.
Bring those bumped off by first snap.
Third Snap?
Double universes resources, or enough to comfortably sustain existing populace.
Fourth Snap?
None of them can trace me. None of them will ever find me. But from the previous lessons, they know to ‘watch it’, because ‘I’m watching them’
That Thanos didn’t think of that, and only follow the one path, is brilliantly compelling. It gives us someone to kind of understand (we live on this planet like we’ve another to go to), whilst being objectively abhorrent.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Thanos is also completely insane.
For instance, once the six stones are in the glove, why not achieve much the same thing, by Snapping into existence double the galaxies, rather than halving the inhabitants?
But he’s not without smarts.
Spoiler:
Hence we see him destroy the stones with a second snap. Hence why his earlier self sees the flaw in the initial plan, and conceives of a second way to achieve his plan.
But that’s part of his attraction as a character. He’s incredibly driven. He genuinely believes he’s doing The Right Thing. If he had any doubts, he’d have long flagged and given up, given the sheer scale of the task he assigned to himself.
It’s a very strong character, and that we can understand, if not accept his motivation only adds to that.
Definitely one of the best things about a lot of the Marvel bad-guys, there is always a logic behind their actions and why they are doing what they do, even if it is utterly tyrannical.
Kroem wrote:I watched it yesterday, I really liked it although I think Infinity War was better.
I think so too, although the more I think about Endgame the more I like it - there were some really subtle bits of plotting that it's quite easy to miss.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, at this point it could be complained why Thanos doesn't just have his ship open fire on all the heroes as they dramatically enter.
I think the answer to that is in his dialogue just prior.
Spoiler:
"In all my years of conquest, of violence, it has never once been personal. But I must admit, I'm going to enjoy what I'm about to do to your stubborn, pathetic planet."
He relishes the opportunity to fight the very best Earth has to offer, because in his mind, with the foreknowledge that he has already won one in the future, he can't possibly lose. His army is immense, he's just decked Cap, Stark and Thor, and there's a smile on his face the whole time. It's personal, it's his final test, and he is so supremely confident. So let them assemble, let them fight, because then he can prove once and for all that he's the most powerful being in the universe. Fulfil his destiny.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, at this point it could be complained why Thanos doesn't just have his ship open fire on all the heroes as they dramatically enter.
Then we wouldn’t have Corvus Glaive say the dumbest line of the film.
*Thanos orders the Sanctuary II to open fire on the Avengers and their army
“But sir! You’ll hit our own troops!”
melon-fether? How long have you worked for Thanos again?
Important to remember that part of the reason Thanos doesn’t look for alternative gauntlet wishes is that he’s past the hypothesis stage of reasoning. He had a theory, proved his theory on a (relatively) small scale and was looking for a solution to large scale distribution of his proven solution. He wasn’t looking for an answer to the problem anymore, just a shortcut to implementation.
AduroT wrote: I think her concern was not having it on hand for Strange to use when he did to stop his big world ending threat in his movie.
Yup, this. Dormamu would have successfully invaded without the time stone.
IIRC the Ancient One doesn't see any invasion by big D in the future because her vision is limited up to the point of her death. She might speculate that it is needed, but she doesn't know.
AduroT wrote: I think her concern was not having it on hand for Strange to use when he did to stop his big world ending threat in his movie.
Yup, this. Dormamu would have successfully invaded without the time stone.
IIRC the Ancient One doesn't see any invasion by big D in the future because her vision is limited up to the point of her death. She might speculate that it is needed, but she doesn't know.
I think the context of the discussion really doesn't point to Dormamu. Maybe Thanos destroying the stones though doesn't really affect their power as much as removing them entirely does. Or maybe this will play a part in the next phase of the MCU/Doctor Strange film.
That scene on the whole was maybe a little flimsy also because TAO didn't have the stone on her person at any point in Doctor Strange that I remember. It was sitting in a vault collecting dust the whole time, and it seems like a contrived convenience for Endgame's Plot that she was actually wearing it during the New York battle.
Frazzled wrote: Yes if you control time space matter etc. just double the resources, half the resources needed etc.
Turns out he's just a psychopath after all.
It was pointed out in the Infinity War thread last year, but the reason he didn't do this was "nobody would learn a lesson and it would just happen all over again". The part he didn't think of was that 1000 years in the future, he'd be gone, everyone who survived the cull would be gone, and it would just be a myth of legend. But in his mind's eye, he's right; in the immediate time, people wouldn't learn any lessons if they suddenly just gained a whole ton without a travesty to "give it" to them. The cull (or Snap) made the survivors remember what they lost and appreciate what they still had (again, in his mind's eye). He's driven, he honestly believes he's doing the right thing, and his reasoning is sound. But he sees the immediate future, and not a millennia into the future when the same thing will happen again, and his Infinity War passes into the realm of legend. So he's right and wrong all in the same breath.
How is he right though? He's only right if there's some inherent value in people "learning the lesson" that he wants them to learn, and there really isn't - frugality only has value insofar as resources are scarce, if resources were no longer scarce then there's no longer any need to be frugal and so no justification for his actions. Thanos possessed a device capable of rewriting reality to eliminate scarcity permanently if he so chose, and instead chose to mass-murder in order to preserve the status quo. There's no part of his ideology or actions that's right.
That scene on the whole was maybe a little flimsy also because TAO didn't have the stone on her person at any point in Doctor Strange that I remember. It was sitting in a vault collecting dust the whole time, and it seems like a contrived convenience for Endgame's Plot that she was actually wearing it during the New York battle.
She wasn't wearing it but as Sorcerer Supreme it was hers to use. Given her duty is to protect the Sanctum Sanctorums, there's no reason to believe she wouldn't retrieve it to help defend one of them if aliens started attacking the city.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Thanos is also completely insane.
For instance, once the six stones are in the glove, why not achieve much the same thing, by Snapping into existence double the galaxies, rather than halving the inhabitants?
But he’s not without smarts.
Spoiler:
Hence we see him destroy the stones with a second snap. Hence why his earlier self sees the flaw in the initial plan, and conceives of a second way to achieve his plan.
But that’s part of his attraction as a character. He’s incredibly driven. He genuinely believes he’s doing The Right Thing. If he had any doubts, he’d have long flagged and given up, given the sheer scale of the task he assigned to himself.
It’s a very strong character, and that we can understand, if not accept his motivation only adds to that.
Definitely one of the best things about a lot of the Marvel bad-guys, there is always a logic behind their actions and why they are doing what they do, even if it is utterly tyrannical.
I..... wouldn't say that. Especially a lot of the earlier MCU bad guys just go crazy at the end of their movie for no reason. Iron Monger goes from an intelligent person with layers of subterfuge and plans to a guy in a suit of armor manically tearing things apart with no logical way to get out of that situation in tact and not going to jail.
Paradigm wrote: I think the answer to that is in his dialogue just prior.
Spoiler:
"In all my years of conquest, of violence, it has never once been personal. But I must admit, I'm going to enjoy what I'm about to do to your stubborn, pathetic planet."
He relishes the opportunity to fight the very best Earth has to offer, because in his mind, with the foreknowledge that he has already won one in the future, he can't possibly lose. His army is immense, he's just decked Cap, Stark and Thor, and there's a smile on his face the whole time. It's personal, it's his final test, and he is so supremely confident. So let them assemble, let them fight, because then he can prove once and for all that he's the most powerful being in the universe. Fulfil his destiny.
I thought at the time it exposed the hypocrisy of his 'noble' motives. It revealed that, at heart, he just likes killing things.
Frazzled wrote: Yes if you control time space matter etc. just double the resources, half the resources needed etc.
Turns out he's just a psychopath after all.
It was pointed out in the Infinity War thread last year, but the reason he didn't do this was "nobody would learn a lesson and it would just happen all over again". The part he didn't think of was that 1000 years in the future, he'd be gone, everyone who survived the cull would be gone, and it would just be a myth of legend. But in his mind's eye, he's right; in the immediate time, people wouldn't learn any lessons if they suddenly just gained a whole ton without a travesty to "give it" to them. The cull (or Snap) made the survivors remember what they lost and appreciate what they still had (again, in his mind's eye). He's driven, he honestly believes he's doing the right thing, and his reasoning is sound. But he sees the immediate future, and not a millennia into the future when the same thing will happen again, and his Infinity War passes into the realm of legend. So he's right and wrong all in the same breath.
How is he right though? He's only right if there's some inherent value in people "learning the lesson" that he wants them to learn, and there really isn't - frugality only has value insofar as resources are scarce, if resources were no longer scarce then there's no longer any need to be frugal and so no justification for his actions. Thanos possessed a device capable of rewriting reality to eliminate scarcity permanently if he so chose, and instead chose to mass-murder in order to preserve the status quo. There's no part of his ideology or actions that's right.
Whether he's right or not isn't as important as whether he believes he's right. We know his solution is insane and there are other ways he could achieve the desired result once he has the Stones. But he's been doing his "kill 50%" thing for a long time on a smaller scale and to him it works, so he sees no reason to change his approach. While he believes he's correct and his logic is unassailable, he's also insane and genocidal, so a solution that just happens to kill trillions appeals to other aspects of his personality.
MarkNorfolk wrote: I thought at the time it exposed the hypocrisy of his 'noble' motives. It revealed that, at heart, he just likes killing things.
Yea I think that bit was Marvel trying to make him less sympathetic and more of a villain. They must be aware of all the love he gets.
Thanos before then had acted more like a craftsman. He didn't resent his material for resisting his efforts to shape it, he just calmly applied pressure in the right places to form it into something better.
Yes, Thanos' plan will not work when you look at it from a long term perspective.
He kills 50% of all life. Okay, there is no longer so much drain on resources. But all the non-renewable resources that have been used are still used, they aren't coming back. Pretty quickly the population recovers and the resources are still going down during that recovery time, just at a lesser rate. Now he needs to snap again to reduce the population again. Same thing happens again, resources are still being used, non-renewables are still not being replenished. Repeat again. And again. And again. Eventually the resources still run out, just further down the line.
Even his Endgame plan will not work. He creates a new universe and the exact same problems will crop up. Distribution of resources will always be an issue.
Thanos thinks he is a great thinker who is willing to do what is necessary when others refuse to make the sacrifice. But the others aren't unwilling to make the sacrifice, they can just see that the sacrifice will not solve the underlying problem.
Well I think his plan has the following steps (whether he realises this is why it works is another thing!);
1. Kill off half of life. 2. The stark comparison before and after makes societies realise how terrible their lives of runaway consumption were. 3. They reform and create different societies which don't voraciously hoover up resources and reproduce uncontrollably.
As others have said this isn't a thought experiment, Thanos has tried this on a smaller scale and seen it working. He's effectively an eco-terrorist! He even has the integrity to practice what he preaches, after the snap he lives a simple, subsistence life style on his farm.
Saw it yesterday. I'll caveat by saying I am not the target audience having no real interest or background in marval or comics in general.
As a result I found it all a bit ho hum and rote.
Queue opening act getting the gang reassembled and Stark re-finding his mojo
Queue middle act of time travel shenanigans and character "development"
Queue big CGI battle at the end
Spoiler:
Also unless you are in invested in the franchise:
Who was the cosmic super girl character?
Who was the girl on the pegasus?
Who were the asian guys whjo could generate kine shields?
When was Starks dad shown before?
Why did Thanos simply retire at the start?
Is scarlett johannson really dead?
Ratius wrote: Saw it yesterday. I'll caveat by saying I am not the target audience having no real interest or background in marval or comics in general.
Spoiler:
As a result I found it all a bit ho hum and rote.
Queue opening act getting the gang reassembled and Stark re-finding his mojo
Queue middle act of time travel shenanigans and character "development"
Queue big CGI battle at the end
Also unless you are in invested in the franchise:
Who was the cosmic super girl character?
Who was the girl on the pegasus?
Who were the asian guys whjo could generate kine shields?
When was Starks dad shown before?
Why did Thanos simply retire at the start?
Is scarlett johannson really dead?
I was lost frankly.
A solid meh from me
Dude, it was requested a full week of spoiler tags for those who couldn’t go opening weekend. You could have tagged that easily. Why didn’t you?
Asian dude is Wong from Dr. Strange
Cosmic girl is Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers)
Girl on Pegasus is Valkyrie from Thor Ragnarok
Stark’s dad was in Cap 1
If you’ve watched the rest of the movies, all of these questions are answered. If you don’t care about the series, why did you go see it and post spoilers without tags? Frankly, you were extremely rude to all of the people on here who requested no spoilers in this thread for a week. Seeing how you have no vested interest in the series, I’d say you owe your fellow Dakka-members an apology. And yes, I’m talking about your last question.
Kroem wrote: Well I think his plan has the following steps (whether he realises this is why it works is another thing!);
1. Kill off half of life.
2. The stark comparison before and after makes societies realise how terrible their lives of runaway consumption were.
3. They reform and create different societies which don't voraciously hoover up resources and reproduce uncontrollably.
As others have said this isn't a thought experiment, Thanos has tried this on a smaller scale and seen it working.
He's effectively an eco-terrorist! He even has the integrity to practice what he preaches, after the snap he lives a simple, subsistence life style on his farm.
Which, once again, is utterly meaningless when you have the means to make runaway consumption irrelevant. Teaching people to value scarce things is only a worthy goal - methods aside - for as long as there is scarcity. Once you set your mind to acquiring a device that could, if you wanted, rewrite reality to eliminate scarcity then even the fig leaf of credibility Thanos had left to cover over his evident psychopathy falls away because he doesn't even consider fixing the actual problem, just enacting his mental genocide on a bigger scale.
If you’ve watched the rest of the movies, all of these questions are answered. If you don’t care about the series, why did you go see it and post spoilers without tags? Frankly, you were extremely rude to all of the people on here who requested no spoilers in this thread for a week. Seeing how you have no vested interest in the series, I’d say you owe your fellow Dakka-members an apology. And yes, I’m talking about your last question
Woah there.
That was a genuine error on my behalf.
Ive always spoilered things in relation to TV/movies in this forum, that was a total oversight so I apologise in retrospect..
And no need to imply I was being rude or spiteful tyvm.
Ratius wrote: Saw it yesterday. I'll caveat by saying I am not the target audience having no real interest or background in marval or comics in general.
mod edit spoiler
If you’ve watched the rest of the movies, all of these questions are answered. If you don’t care about the series, why did you go see it and post spoilers without tags? Frankly, you were extremely rude to all of the people on here who requested no spoilers in this thread for a week. Seeing how you have no vested interest in the series, I’d say you owe your fellow Dakka-members an apology. And yes, I’m talking about your last question.
It’s been out for over a week. Also the thread title clearly says spoilers.
It was requested a week after opening weekend. And yes, I’ve seen it already, but it’s still rude. Not everyone can go opening weekend but wants to hear from like-minded individuals if they liked it or not (since critics generally suck these days). So please spoiler tag the comments, and I’ll go spoiler tag my response for those who haven’t seen it yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thank you mods for adding the tags!
Kroem wrote: Well I think his plan has the following steps (whether he realises this is why it works is another thing!);
1. Kill off half of life. 2. The stark comparison before and after makes societies realise how terrible their lives of runaway consumption were. 3. They reform and create different societies which don't voraciously hoover up resources and reproduce uncontrollably.
As others have said this isn't a thought experiment, Thanos has tried this on a smaller scale and seen it working. He's effectively an eco-terrorist! He even has the integrity to practice what he preaches, after the snap he lives a simple, subsistence life style on his farm.
Which, once again, is utterly meaningless when you have the means to make runaway consumption irrelevant. Teaching people to value scarce things is only a worthy goal - methods aside - for as long as there is scarcity. Once you set your mind to acquiring a device that could, if you wanted, rewrite reality to eliminate scarcity then even the fig leaf of credibility Thanos had left to cover over his evident psychopathy falls away because he doesn't even consider fixing the actual problem, just enacting his mental genocide on a bigger scale.
Yea I saw you put that before, do we actually know what the limits of the infinity gauntlet are?
As others have said creating more resources isn't a long term fix if people keep consuming and reproducing, but rewritng the laws of physics so that entropy goes backwards and the laws of thermodynamics don't apply could solve the problem.
The stones are literally what makes the universe. It's even said as such by a sorcerer in both infinity war and endgame.
Thanos COULD wipe reality and rebuild it down to the atom however he chooses.
The only apparent limitation is bringing back the soul traded for the soul gem. A limitation placed BY the soul gem. (the stones are all semi sentient btw. And in fact a 7th stone exists that is the consciousness of the collective entity that is the universe who splits himself in the big bang to make the universe.)
Also, the movie Gauntlet really comes off more limited and less omnipotent than its comic counterpart. It's still insanely powerful, but its clear there are limits on what it can accomplish.
AduroT wrote: I wouldn’t say there’s limits on the gauntlet itself, but on how much of its power the wearer can withstand.
Agreed. The gauntlet, and the gems themselves, in the comic can be used with no physical toll on the user.
In the movies there is a very obvious toll. Down right horrific.
Well, the gauntlet itself took heavy damage after Thano's first Snap in IW, so I would say the toll affects the gauntlet and the wearer pretty badly with each use, meaning the gauntlet itself probably can only withstand a few snaps. The second gauntlet the Avengers make is made on nano-tech, so it can "heal" after each use.
But in a way, this makes the movie stones seem MORE powerful than the comic stones. Because snapping can kill you in the movies.
I also like the callback to Tony and Bruce's conversation in Avengers, in which Tony tells Bruce that "the other guy" saved him from the Gamma incident for a reason. And in Endgame, we get to see that reason as Prof Hulk says he was "made for this" in regards to using the guanlet
I found it hilarious they tried to “empower women heroes” which then lasted 30 seconds to end with them getting their butts handed to them.. especially since Brie Larson is such an idiotic individuals, I loved that her screen time was so short
same reason he didn;t gate back to Earth for reinforcements or indeed use a portal to chop of Thanos' arm....
But a lot of this film fell flat for me.
It was too much mood whiplash to go from literally decapitating your big bad of the last decade and Thor (who later turns into God of the Neckbeards for reasons...) makes a witty quip to what should be a shocking scene.
