So I’m gonna be in the market for a new car. Always been a SUV guy, and I was looking into Jeeps and other mid size SUVs and was kinda bummed seeing most of them cost like $40,000 now all the sudden. I bought a 2008 jeep wrangler for $25k new, that’s a 15k difference now for basically the same thing.
Been watching lots of youtube while bored at work and started learning about EV (Electric Vehicles). I’m not a hippie tree hugger by any means, but they seem pretty awesome nowadays. Not just Tesla but other car companies are putting them out too and they seem kinda impressive. The range you can go on a full charge has gone up, for some reason I was thinking it was like 70, but most are in the 200+ range and Teslas can be upgraded (for a lot of money) to be over 300 miles and can even have all wheel drive.
Then there’s the cost.. they cost more up front, but the cost to own over time is a lot less. I spend roughly $2000 per year on gas, while most youtubers are saying their electric bills from daily car charging was never more than like $50 extra. Also, there’s federal and state tax refunds you get for buying an EV, in my state it comes out to around $6000. Last year would have been even better, federal refund was over $7000 if you got an EV, but this year it’s like $3700 I think.
Even though I’ve never been much of a sports car kinda guy, I’m considering a Tesla Model 3 now. They start at $35k, and with the tax incentives and cost to own over the next 5 years, that price suddenly doesn’t seem so bad. I wouldn’t be able to afford much more than the base model though. At the base model level, it seems much better than the competition at that price.
So just curious… what are you thoughts on modern electric cars? Any good? Here to stay? Would you ever consider getting one?
It depends what range you need. There are lots of good electric cars which are suitable for bimbling around town on short journeys, with a range of 70 miles, but there aren't so many which can do 200 miles on a charge.
If your commute is 50 miles round trip, a city car with 70mi range is dicey in winter, considering the possible difficulty of finding charging points at either end. I think 200 miles is the range you need. If you have a long drive, every 2-3 hours you'll need to stop for a wee and a coffee. Leave it plugged in for 20 minutes and it will charge up to 80%. The same time out as a conventional vehicle.
A chargeable hybrid is worth thinking about. I was very impressed with the Prius I rented in Japan last year. But in some ways, a chargeable hybrid combines the disadvantages of both technologies. You don't get the advantage of low maintenance.
If you want low cost per mile on fuel and maintenance, you need to go for a pure electric vehicle, or something like the BMW i3, which is pure electric with an on-board generator to top up the battery for extended range.
This is a fairly small car, though. You seem to need something like a Jaguar I-Pace, which really isn't cheap.
However, we're about at the point where electric cars are rally taking off. Mercedes are introducing an entire new all-electric range over the next few years. Prices will come down with volume production.
All the above being said, though, apparently we are now at the point now that an electric car is cheaper over five years than an ICE car despite the higher up-front cost.
I think the technology has now reached the point that if you just drive locally most of the time (and have somewhere to park and charge it) electric cars are worth serious consideration
and battery life can take a real hit in cold weather too
finding places to charge them when out and about here in the UK at least is problematic (I suspect urban areas in the US may be better)
Edit: they also still depreciate faster than standard cars on average so how long you plan to keep them is a factor too.... although those who can change their car every year probably don't have to worry too much about depreciation
Kilkrazy wrote: All the above being said, though, apparently we are now at the point now that an electric car is cheaper over five years than an ICE car despite the higher up-front cost.
That's what got me considering the Tesla Model 3. I could never afford one of their higher end versions, but with the base model starting at $35k minus tax refunds, it really got my interest.. though I would probably go with the next step up for $3000 more, that gives you the heated seats and other amenities. My daily commute to work round trip is around 70 miles per day. I rarely do road trips, but all of the major highways in the US seem to have charging stations, and some supermarkets and restaurants around here do too. Tesla also has their own supercharger network that you get access to. The sucky thing is it would take 30-45 minutes to charge up... however with the extended range I imagine I would only be charging on road trips when i stop to get something to eat, rather than gassing up real quick and eating in the car. All of the family I have worth visiting are within the car's range too. I estimate it would take me 3 burger breaks to make it to GenCon
I also looked into the Chevy Bolt, and that just seems cheapier quality overall for the same price range. The Nissan Leaf seems a little better. Another thing I liked about tesla is they only make electric cars, where it seems others are gas car companies that are making something just to compete.
Of course I would have to test drive one first, I am thinking I probably won't like sitting so low to the ground after having an SUV for the last 20 years. The Leaf and Bolt seem a little more like a crossover height, so I may end up liking them better. Either way I will probably still wait till this summer to decide. I dunno how some of those people preorder a tesla without driving one first, a year in advance. Seems crazy to me, but then I guess if you have the cash collecting dust...
Long range electric cars are starting to come through. The problem at the moment is the backlog for the larger batteries.
Kona and Kia both do electrics that have 280 - 300 mile ranges on a decent day (i.e. not sub-zero).
They also have active cooling to help with battery maintenance.
I'd be cautious about the second hand sale of lower mileage models. I suspect that in the next 2/3 years we will see an explosion of longer range electrics which I think will flatten the shorter range models.
Well you don't have to be a hippy tree hugger to want a planet left to live on
I think a hybrid is a better bet. I was driving my friend's hybrid car in Sri Lanka, the crazy thing basically never needed filling up or pluggin in!
It generated its own energy and if you drove right it seemed to hardly use the petrol engine bit at all.
The only problem was that is was so quiet people didn't hear it coming, so they tended to step out in front of the car a lot :-S
There is one thing I REALLY hate about Tesla. They try to make it as hard as possible for you to work on your own car. Getting new parts is next to impossible, and even if you can get them they have proprietary tools that you need for installation.
I have a 2 person/1 car household with a Nissan LEAF. As long as you get something with range to match your needs and have reliable charging access I would strongly recommend an EV from my own experiences.
Obviously every state is different but they can also be quite inexpensive for a new car if the financial stars align. After tax credits mine came out to around $18k which is pretty good for a new hatchback.
If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.
Yeah I've been reading the repair costs for teslas are pretty high. But one thing that seems cool is the warranty is great, something like 8 years or 100k miles. I have a feeling that's about when they expect the batteries to start getting too sucky. I read it's something like $7-8000 for a new battery. I think most of the other EVs have good warranties like that too though. I usually keep a car for 4 years or so, I get severe FOMO when new stuff starts coming out.
I'm gonna test drive a Leaf, chevy Bolt and tesla model 3 and see which one I like best They all seem to be about the same price range. Tesla just announced their lower end Model Y SUV, but that won't be available till the end of next year and looks like it's just a taller Model 3. I think anything with a 200+ mile range would work for me so it will just get down to price and how comfy the seats are.
Talking about range, a colleague of mine had a nightmare weekend last week. He hired an electric car to drive to Cambridge and back. It's about 100 miles and 2 hours from Oxford. The car had a range of 70 miles. The journey took nearer 4 hours, thanks to the need to stop to charge.
On one occasion he found that the charging point indicated by the app was within a locked industrial estate and inaccessible. He had 8 miles range left at that point. Luckily the hire company was able to direct him to a nearby Ikea where he could stop to charge and ahve a look round (Always a joy!)
Anyway, he's decided never to hire a short range EV for a medium length trip again.
As I think I mentioned above, my round trip commute is 50 miles and I would be a bit nervous using a 70mi car for it during the winter. There are a few charging points in the car park in Oxford but they are often occupied.
I think the technology is interesting but I think the overall progress and infrastructure is far behind what we'd need to have EV's on a national scale. A quick Google search tells me a Nissan Leaf is £30,000 starting, before any government tax returns. For the same price, going with Nissan's website, I could get a Micra, wreck it, buy another one and still have around £5,000 change.
Renaut is similar as well. Their cheapest EV is the Zoe starting at £21,000 with the cheapest ICE the Twingo (who the hell makes up these names) at £11,000. Despite this the Twingo seems better in many regard:
- 5 minute fill time compared to a 1h46 charge time for the Zoe
- 94mph top speed compared to 84mph
- 1.3 tons while the Zoe is almost 2 tons
Yes, eventually the Zoe will cost less due to the price of fuel, but how long would you have to use it to break even?
If we had the technology where it could match an ICE in terms of power, range and cost then I'd be all for it, but at the moment it seems far too situational.
I would wait for another 5-10 yrs before getting one. By then, most of the major car manufacturers would've already saturated the market driving down the cost and product improvements.
The 2 big issues for me is: the high cost of repairs and short range.
However, I got to drive the Tesla Model S...and it *is* really farking nice. For the same price right now, I think I'd rather go with a truck or SUV (caddie Escalade).
I think we do need more infrastructure too. That was one of the things I liked about Tesla also, is they have their own superchargers all over, and are always adding more. I think there's like 4000 stations around the world and they are upgrading them to a new version that can charge you up in 15 minutes rather than 45. And that's in addition to the other charging stations you can use too. Not sure but I assume that other car companies aren't able to use the tesla superchargers? If so, I hope that changes some day.
Really curious to see what it'll be like in another 10 or 20 years. if EV really takes off and starts replacing gas, what'll happen to all those mom & pop gas stations? Will the just change over to charging stations? I also read that most mechanics can't really work on EVs or at least Teslas beyond basic stuff like rotating tires.
If I was running the stereotypical '2 car family' setup then I'd probably be getting a pure EV as my next urban runaround (I'm oddly drawn to that new Honda, maybe because it looks like the much-maligned Mini 1275GT of days gone by) with a traditional bigger car for distance.
But I'm not, so I'll stick with my one petrol roadster for now.
They've hit the range now that it should suit most usage patterns. 200 mile ranges mean you're charging at home for all but roadtrips, and even then you're only stopping to charge every 3 hours which is about human bladder duration anyway.
It's potentially more convenient having an EV too - you can charge it up more or less anywhere so never need to worry about gas stations. Charge at work and you're not even paying for it.
The performance blows most gas vehicles away, too.
The downsides at the moment are in terms of size/towing/load capacity - they tend to be regular cars that are pretty heavy on their own. You'd need something like a Tesla X to get a big towing SUV. I have heard there are trucks coming in the next few years (including an F-150), but if you're in a Jeep Wrangler you're probably fine with a Tesla 3.
I'd be buying an EV if I could afford one big enough for 2 adults + 2 kids + all the crap kids come with. I'm very tempted by a Leaf for a 2nd car but can't quite justify it yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Talking about range, a colleague of mine had a nightmare weekend last week. He hired an electric car to drive to Cambridge and back. It's about 100 miles and 2 hours from Oxford. The car had a range of 70 miles. The journey took nearer 4 hours, thanks to the need to stop to charge.
That sounds like a really bad hiring choice - did he choose the 70-mile EV (a Zoe?) ? or was it just the option he was offered? Knowing he'd need to stop and charge it at least twice, he really should have requested something more suitable.
There are plenty of pretty cheap small EV choices out there that have a limited range, but whilst they don't suit longer trips they are perfect for a lot of people with small trips (for instance my parents driving pattern is almost all 1-2 mile round trips to shops, with a few 20 mile round trips to other towns. They might got on a longer trip on holiday once a year, but it wouldn't kill them to charge somewhere twice a year). The newer range of 200+ mile EVs (Tesla Y has a range of about 230-330 depending on spec) almost entirely eliminates the need to stop mid journey to charge for anything beyond a road trip, and there's also nothing stopping someone hiring a gas vehicle for road trips.
I work in the insurance industry and Teslas can be pretty expensive on comp and collision coverage. get A quote with your insurance company to add into your cost.
I studied electric cars and it seems to me that the batteries are too expensive, heavyweight and short-lives. But in the long term, electric cars will be a competitor or replacement for conventional cars.
Chute82 wrote: I work in the insurance industry and Teslas can be pretty expensive on comp and collision coverage. get A quote with your insurance company to add into your cost.
hmm.. I thought teslas had some of the best safety ratings? Like 5 stars across the board? At least that's what I read. What is it about them that would make the insurance expensive? Or is it more because of them being like luxury cars? The Model 3 seems nice but i think it's more like a honda civic with a ipad for a dashboard, the model S and X are the the super expensive ones. But yeah, good call, will see what my insurance guy says about it
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I haven't really looked in to Hydrogen.. didn't even consider it, cuz part of the reason I wanted to go electric was to charge at home and never need a gas station again...well charge at home 90% of the time, I don't do many road trips but it's nice to know there's lots of charging options out there just in case.
My brother lives in Tulsa and owns a hydrogen powered Honda. He liked it when gas prices were really high a few years ago. At one point it was stolen, and the thief ran it out of gas in their own driveway, LOL. They couldn't figure out how to refill it.
You also need to consider the home charging system.
Base model runs on 120v but is slow to charge.
Second level is faster but needs a dedicated 240v line installed.
Also, you need to consider your power bill. Either charging system is going to make a significant bump in electric usage.
Lots of decent hybrids out there that may not need the charging system and still cut down you fuel usage.
You also worry less about the batteries over heating and causing a fire.
The electric car in its current form is not an answer, it's a stop gap measure.
Companies are selling them because most first-world countries have plenty o' guilt-ridden people who imagine they're doing a virtuous thing by driving one. Admittedly they'll spend far more on one than an economical normal fuel car at the moment, but it makes them feel good. The infrstructure doesn't exist to support them, and it's not a proper long term solution.
Manufacturers are anxious to find the magic ticket to producing better electric cars (we need the battery tech to double or triple without costing more). Why? Because assembling a car with a battery reduces your necessary workforce by 25-40% (the people installing all of the motor components, engine bay etc.).
The cars themselves are not better for the environment outside of emissions. They're still producing dangerous waste in the form of batteries.
With better battery tech, can they be a solution for some people? Namely urban commuters, etc. Sure. But as a replacement for the normal ICE...not a chance. Won't ever replace motors for emergency vehicles, police cars, long-distance haulers, taxis, etc. I'm a courier at the moment and there isn't an electric car in the world which could cope with my erratic driving, long hauls, etc. You can't stack more batteries on the roof and drive into the wild, etc.
Lots of Hydrogen talk...but last I checked Hydrogen still takes more energy to create than it expels, so that's a serious problem for producing/selling it, etc. There isn't any tech which outpaces the ICE at the moment, particularly for emerging markets, 2nd and 3rd world countries, remote locations, etc. Just doesn't exist. But, urban runabouts for city-dwellers who drive 10 miles to work and back each day? Sure.
Herzlos wrote: They've hit the range now that it should suit most usage patterns. 200 mile ranges mean you're charging at home for all but roadtrips, and even then you're only stopping to charge every 3 hours which is about human bladder duration anyway. ... ... ...
That sounds like a really bad hiring choice - did he choose the 70-mile EV (a Zoe?) ? or was it just the option he was offered? Knowing he'd need to stop and charge it at least twice, he really should have requested something more suitable.
There are plenty of pretty cheap small EV choices out there that have a limited range, but whilst they don't suit longer trips they are perfect for a lot of people with small trips (for instance my parents driving pattern is almost all 1-2 mile round trips to shops, with a few 20 mile round trips to other towns. They might got on a longer trip on holiday once a year, but it wouldn't kill them to charge somewhere twice a year). The newer range of 200+ mile EVs (Tesla Y has a range of about 230-330 depending on spec) almost entirely eliminates the need to stop mid journey to charge for anything beyond a road trip, and there's also nothing stopping someone hiring a gas vehicle for road trips.
He's in a local scheme call Co-wheels Car Club. They have cars dotted around the city in reserved spaces. You don't have to go to a hire office. You just reserve the nearest car with an app, and make sure you park it back there at the end of your trip. So you're buying convenience at the expense of choice.
In overall terms, the EV market is taking off. The sales stats are clear. The push from governments, and the new models and marques coming from manufacturers. For example, cars like the BMW i3, designed from the start as an EV, are made with aluminium and carbon fibre, to lose the weight of conventional steel. Mercedes EQ marque will be releasing 5 purpose designed vehicles over the next five years, with a variety of battery ranges to allow you to trade price against driving range.
There is still an issue with charging infrastructure in the UK. Redbridge Park and Ride Oxford has capacity for over 1,000 vehicles, but only 4 charging points.
Chute82 wrote: I work in the insurance industry and Teslas can be pretty expensive on comp and collision coverage. get A quote with your insurance company to add into your cost.
hmm.. I thought teslas had some of the best safety ratings? Like 5 stars across the board? At least that's what I read. What is it about them that would make the insurance expensive? Or is it more because of them being like luxury cars? The Model 3 seems nice but i think it's more like a honda civic with a ipad for a dashboard, the model S and X are the the super expensive ones. But yeah, good call, will see what my insurance guy says about it
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I haven't really looked in to Hydrogen.. didn't even consider it, cuz part of the reason I wanted to go electric was to charge at home and never need a gas station again...well charge at home 90% of the time, I don't do many road trips but it's nice to know there's lots of charging options out there just in case.
Safety features comes off the liability.....they are cheaper on liability . Just when it comes to repair a veh that let’s say has damage from hail, Parts are more expensive to replace then my Chevy. Plus the front bumper for example if damaged because you hit a pole, you are looking at about 5k in repairs because the sensors also need replaced, my Chevy is around 1k if I smashed it in.
Ah, I see. But then, wouldn't the same be true for newer gas cars that have similar technologies? Like I was looking into the new Honda passport, that has honda's sensing tech standard. Seems like lots of other companies are starting to make that stuff standard too
I think Tesla is just expensive for parts, partly because they can be, and partly because the need more of their production capacity for actual vehicles
there will also be fewer generic parts around as they're still small in automotive terms so companies may not choose to do stuff for them, whereas if they've already got a big line of generic parts for Honda for example it makes sense to add some for the electric cars too compared to making them for a whole new manufacturer they wont have a set of buyers already lined up for
The danger for Tesla has always been that while they are good at inventing new technology, they aren't any good at making cars. Traditional car companies like Honda are great at making cars, and good at inventing new technology to put into them.
One thing to realize about electric car ranges is that while the listed range will apply when it is new, the batteries degrade over time. Quite rapidly actually. So your actual range will shrink quite a bit as the car gets older unless you periodically buy new batteries.
Plus you will only be able to make long distance drives along routes that have charging stations, and recharging takes 1-2 hours depending on the battery and charging station. This will severely limit your long distance mobility if you ever want to make road trips.
Frankly, electric cars are still premature. I would get a Prius instead. Still fuels like a regular car and has great range. Electric cars are only good for commuting to destinations well within its maximum range(to account for battery degradation), but you'll still need a regular vehicle for long distance travel or to go anywhere that doesn't have charging stations.
My dad needed a new car last year, and he was deciding between a Prius and some electric car. The electric car only had a total 70 mile range, which was the exact distance of his daily work commute. And the batteries were expected to degrade up to 15% within the first 2 years. So he would have to use a charging station at work(which was a 4 mile walk). So he ended up with the Prius.
Even with battery distance becoming better, they're still way too primitive at this stage and there is too little infrastructure. Go with a hybrid. Electric cars probably have about a decade left.
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
I think that electric cars, in their current form, will become a parenthesis in car history and nothing more.
They are not a solution.
They're at best a bandaid, and at worst they are making the situation worse in the long run, by taking focus, time and resources away from where it would be of most use.
Grey Templar wrote: One thing to realize about electric car ranges is that while the listed range will apply when it is new, the batteries degrade over time. Quite rapidly actually. So your actual range will shrink quite a bit as the car gets older unless you periodically buy new batteries.
Plus you will only be able to make long distance drives along routes that have charging stations, and recharging takes 1-2 hours depending on the battery and charging station. This will severely limit your long distance mobility if you ever want to make road trips.
Frankly, electric cars are still premature. I would get a Prius instead. Still fuels like a regular car and has great range. Electric cars are only good for commuting to destinations well within its maximum range(to account for battery degradation), but you'll still need a regular vehicle for long distance travel or to go anywhere that doesn't have charging stations.
My dad needed a new car last year, and he was deciding between a Prius and some electric car. The electric car only had a total 70 mile range, which was the exact distance of his daily work commute. And the batteries were expected to degrade up to 15% within the first 2 years. So he would have to use a charging station at work(which was a 4 mile walk). So he ended up with the Prius.
Even with battery distance becoming better, they're still way too primitive at this stage and there is too little infrastructure. Go with a hybrid. Electric cars probably have about a decade left.
Yeah, I broadly agree with this. There are circumstances where they work, and they'll likely work better in small areas that can force the necessary infrastructure to happen and have housing near workplaces, but in the wider world (including but not limited to entire continents), its an impractical technology.
I could see it functioning in Japan (assuming a will to do it, as all oil/gas has to be imported anyway, and geography limits roads) or Denmark or the Low Countries, but in most urban areas where it would be possible, just going for a metro ride seems a better solution, and outside of urban zones, any amount of significant travel or rough terrain make them useless or at best impractical.
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
There are a number of other factors to consider too when it comes to pure electric vehicles - all of them are issues, and why the market will have to change if you really want to use them. Even how you sell them will have to change.
1) As mentioned above, battery performance degrades over time, far more than a slightly worn out normal motor. This kills re-sale value, or could potentially be catastrophically expensive (in the same realm as buying a full new motor for a used car in 10-15 years)
2) Batteries are more or less unable to be refurbished at this time, so you're producing a heap of battery waste...that has to go somewhere and that's a problem (see India's mega-gigantic computer trash dumps, etc.)
3) With battery tech hopefully increasing you risk an overwhelming loss of value if there is a breakthrough. If we find a solution and suddenly next year's electric car goes 400 miles instead of your current model which goes 170....who the hell is going to buy your car? You could lose all of its value overnight (the same kind of thing you see when major cell phone changes occur, etc.)
Some companies are considering this stuff, others are just shooting from the hip. Realistically you need to be renting electric cars, or even just renting their batteries, etc. Companies need to consider how to refurb worn out cars or establish how good a used electric vehicle is. Are the cars and future cars being created in a modular system so new (upgraded tech) batteries can be swapped in to give a car a further life-span, etc. Will new batteries be available for a car in 15-20 years when an owner wants to refurb it, etc. Will aftermarket companies be able to create batteries for older electric vehicles, etc.
And of course, worst case scenario is that some other tech comes along and destroys the electric vehicle market overnight...but that's always a risk.
If we look at something like Formula E (electric racing series) we can see the issues from a performance standpoint. The first four or five years the drivers drove (slowly) half the race and then swapped into a backup car. This year with the new second generation car they're able to do a whopping 45 minute race in a single car. The cars aren't terribly performance heavy (around 130 mph max speed if I recall) and at least in previous years the cars were all charged using massive diesel generators...so...the envrionmental nods are a bit silly. There's a ton of great marketing out there though...so the cars will continue to do fine. But as a long term investment in a vehicle, or as a long term solution to normal fuel? Not there...at all.
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
Hydrogen is even worse then an electric car in terms of refueling. You have to find a place that sells pressurized hydrogen. You'd be even more limited in where you can drive. Plus your fuel is best described as an explosive.
Electric cars are best described as premature technology. Hydrogen cars are dead end technology.
MinscS2 wrote: I think that electric cars, in their current form, will become a parenthesis in car history and nothing more.
They are not a solution.
They're at best a bandaid, and at worst they are making the situation worse in the long run, by taking focus, time and resources away from where it would be of most use.
Do you have any reasoning behind what you're saying?
Do you believe hydrogen fuel is a better solution, perhaps running a fuel cell to produce electricity to run an electric motor?
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
Hydrogen has the advantages of being easy to produce, and burning "clean" either as an internal combustion fuel, or in a "fuel cell" to produce electricity directly. The exhaust in either case is water. The disadvantage is the difficulty of storing and transporting it, compared to petrol or electricity.
There isn't any existing infrastructure for refuelling hydrogen cars.
There is a lot of misinformation on this thread! Much of it coming from old or crappy EVS. Wow, do some research guys!
So I just bought a Model 3 performance so I will tell you my thoughts.
The model 3 in all levels of trim from the cheapest to the most expensive will outperform similar priced cars. the 35K base model will perform much better than any other $35k sedan. My P3 will spank a BMW M3 straight or on a course....no problem, for much less $$ upfront and much much less money in the long run. Maintenance on the Teslas is minimal, my brother (who does some engineering work for Tesla) has had one for 4 years.....tires, windshield wiper fluid, windshield wipers.....thats it. Every car I have had in the past I have had to give up because eventually maintenance just becomes overbearing, and I can do most of it myself...but even then, if its not a cost issue its the time and hassle. Teslas are simple its, a battery with motors, thousands of less moving parts and components. My brother basically says as long as the body holds up these could be forever cars, the motors are rated for 1 million miles and the batteries are guaranteed for 8 years and if cared for properly (i.e dont abuse them by siting on them fully charged or drain them too low without charging) show minimal degradation and should last a very long time, like less than 1% a year. Do you know how much horsepower your average car loses a year? Its quite a bit. Earlier Teslas including the early model 3s had fit and finish issues, this has disappeared for the most part.
So now we have a car that is a priced on par with its competition, requires basically 0 maintenance and costs much less to fuel....possibly free to fuel if you set your house up for renewable energy.
Range. Not really an issue for daily driving. I however drive a lot for business. Typically 400 miles a week, 200 miles a day, twice a week. My Tesla can go 310 on a full charge, ideally. I have yet to get that amount, winter is tough on the battery, heating the car eats electricity. I however installed a nema 14-50 charger at work and at home, this charges me about 30 miles an hour. I did this work myself, its easy. For long hauls there are superchargers everywhere. Battery charging is different, I can get i can get 60% charge in about 20 min...the other 40% takes much longer, thats just how it works. Telsa does have new chargers that charge up to 1000 miles an hour and the tech will only get better.
It changes you though, I'm a car guy. I loved my old MR2 with a stick, and my wife has a chrysler 300 with the big hemi in it...i loved driving that. Now whenever I get in those cars they feel like tanks, slow, heavy, clumsy . My model 3 is just so quick and responsive, its not a light car, its actually quite heavy, but it feels very light. I cant wait for the summer to spank my friends at autocross. I will never go back to ICE cars.
Oh and since i own my own business, i still get to write of 58 cents a mile, but Im not buying gas or doing maintenance on the car, so in a way the car pays for itself. I think if anyone is looking at a new car you really should see if an EV will work for you, I'd go with Tesla just because of the extensive network of superchargers, but also they are so far ahead of the competition, its going to take everyone else a long time to catch up.
Hybrids take all the problems of both and combine it together. Internal combustion engines are just too complex, have too many moving parts and the stress from running them wears them down, after 10 years the radiator breaks, then the water pump, then the fuel injection.....on and on and on $$$$$$$.
quote=Andrew1975 772819 10382899 3780a3d5526daea62fb9a94c2f43af38.jpg]There is a lot of misinformation on this thread! Much of it coming from old or crappy EVS. Wow, do some research guy!
So I just bought a Model 3 performance so I will tell you my thoughts.
The model 3 in all levels of trim from the cheapest to the most expensive will outperform similar priced cars. the 35K base model will perform much better than any other $35k sedan. My P3 will spank a BMW M3 straight or on a course....no problem, for much less $$ upfront and much much less money in the long run. Maintenance on the Teslas is minimal, my brother (who does some engineering work for Tesla) has had one for 4 years.....tires, windshield wiper fluid, windshield wipers.....thats it. Every car I have had in the past I have had to give up because eventually maintenance just becomes overbearing, and I can do most of it myself...but even then, if its not a cost issue its the time and hassle. Teslas are simple its, a battery with motors, thousands of less moving parts and components. My brother basically says as long as the body holds up these could be forever cars, the motors are rated for 1 million miles and the batteries are guaranteed for 8 years and if cared for properly (i.e dont abuse them by siting on them fully charged or drain them too low without charging) show minimal degradation and should last a very long time, like less than 1% a year. Do you know how much horsepower your average car loses a year? Its quite a bit. Earlier Teslas including the early model 3s had fit and finish issues, this has disappeared for the most part.
So now we have a car that is a priced on par with its competition, requires basically 0 maintenance and costs much less to fuel....possibly free to fuel if you set your house up for renewable energy.
Range. Not really an issue for daily driving. I however drive a lot for business. Typically 400 miles a week, 200 miles a day, twice a week. My Tesla can go 310 on a full charge, ideally. I have yet to get that amount, winter is tough on the battery, heating the car eats electricity. I however installed a nema 14-50 charger at work and at home, this charges me about 30 miles an hour. I did this work myself, its easy. For long hauls there are superchargers everywhere. Battery charging is different, I can get i can get 60% charge in about 20 min...the other 40% takes much longer, thats just how it works. Telsa does have new chargers that charge up to 1000 miles an hour and the tech will only get better.
It changes you though, I'm a car guy. I loved my old MR2 with a stick, and my wife has a chrysler 300 with the big hemi in it...i loved driving that. Now whenever I get in those cars they feel like tanks, slow, heavy, clumsy . My model 3 is just so quick and responsive, its not a light car, its actually quite heavy, but it feels very light. I cant wait for the summer to spank my friends at autocross. I will never go back to ICE cars.
Oh and since i own my own business, i still get to write of 58 cents a mile, but Im not buying gas or doing maintenance on the car, so in a way the car pays for itself. I think if anyone is looking at a new car you really should see if an EV will work for you, I'd go with Tesla just because of the extensive network of superchargers, but also they are so far ahead of the competition, its going to take everyone else a long time to catch up.
Hybrids take all the problems of both and combine it together. Internal combustion engines are just too complex, have too many moving parts and the stress from running them wears them down, after 10 years the radiator breaks, then the water pump, then the fuel injection.....on and on and on $$$$$$$.
So my 1999 sedan can tow 5000 lbs, but you reckon your 3 outperforms it? The 3 has no factory towing capacity at all........... I'm just saying it depends on what you want, not everyone is looking for the same thing.
Oh electric cars can be built that can tow, the tesla model x I think can tow 2 or so tons. Tesla 3 has no tow capacity as it was never given when manufactured, there are aftermarket tow kits even for the 3 but tesla doesn't say you can tow with it. I was just pointing out that saying the tesla 3 outperforms any other sedan of simular price is incorrect, although I think he only was thinking of speed. If the OP is used to SUV's he might not realise some of the things you can't do with the 3, like tow a decent boat lol. Lot of people don't need that ability, but some do.
For me it's impractical as I work at a wide variety of locations often inn muddy fields at varying distances from my home and office so I can't as yet rely on a charger.
dodgemetal wrote: Oh electric cars can be built that can tow, the tesla model x I think can tow 2 or so tons. Tesla 3 has no tow capacity as it was never given when manufactured, there are aftermarket tow kits even for the 3 but tesla doesn't say you can tow with it. I was just pointing out that saying the tesla 3 outperforms any other sedan of simular price is incorrect, although I think he only was thinking of speed. If the OP is used to SUV's he might not realise some of the things you can't do with the 3, like tow a decent boat lol. Lot of people don't need that ability, but some do.
Look when people look for performance out of a sedan.....they are not looking for towing. Thats what trucks and SUVs are for. When you look at "Performance" Sedans, I highly doubt any of them have towing capability. You are being Silly. Id also be curious to see which "Sedan" from 1999 can tow 5000 pounds.
Ford falcon au xr8. You don’t have them in America but they where popular here. 2300kg towing
Other popular one is Holden commodore, had 2100kg towing since 1993.
dodgemetal wrote: Ford falcon au xr8. You don’t have them in America but they where popular here. 2300kg towing
Other popular one is Holden commodore, had 2100kg towing since 1993.
OK, that makes sense.....everything is weird in Australia
Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.
Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.
Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.
I can't remember where but I was reading an article about how the battery production is bad for the environment. Right off the assembly line EVs have more of a bad impact, but over the course of 5 years a gas car will have produced far more smog, etc, to double the harmful impact the car's battery production may have had, and just continues to increase from there. But I think the other companies are getting on the bandwagon, I read another article about how Toyota was buying up tons of mines in China a while back, for producing EV batteries.
Also for the power grid, in a perfect world it would be great if homes could produce their own solar power, and run their cars from their own energy collection. That's expensive to install, but would be cool.
I was thinking, it might be cool if EVs could have some kinda solar panel roofs.. might not generate enough power for a full charge but it could be a cool way to negate stuff like vampire drain if you keep you car parked outside at work all day. I watched a video where a guy left his tesla parked at an airport while he was away for a week, the battery was totally dead when he got back and had to get towed home.
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.
Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.
Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.
I'm not missing the point. I said keep your old car while its serviceable, throwing usable stuff away is just wasteful! Production of the electric car might be worse, but during the life of the car its by far cleaner and by far more ethical! You can say what you want about what it takes to make a battery, but there is far less damage done globally for those "nasty chemicals and materials" than there is for oil! How much bombs, blood, and money do you think Lithium and Cobalt cost? We have been fighting in the middle east for a century over this stuff, most of the US defense budget goes to propping up petty dictators and ISIS and extreme militant terrorists are funded by it.
Hybrids are not more eco friendly, they still use gas, the gasoline infrastructure. The internal combustion engine is complex and difficult to maintain causing people to dispose of their cars before its really needed......essential waisting the entire car! Its still an ICE car with all those problems....and its still has all the problems with batteries too, but at a much more inefficient rate, smaller batteries are much less efficent than large ones....thats how production of scale and battery size work. If the motor goes in a EV...its pretty easy to replace, its one part, if the battery goes, its one part. When and ICE engine goes....which of the thousands of components is causing the trouble today, what strain did that put on the other parts? Whats going to break now tomorrow....screw it, might as well just get rid of the car! That is the death spiral of most every ICE car.....it wont happen with an electric car.
The issue you are making of mining the raw materials is way over rated when you look at what we compromise and do for oil. Electric cars are also the push needed to make better batteries and cleaner infrastructure. We are in the infancy of electric cars, there are already many innovation making batteries more powerful and less reliant on the exotic materials. I drive a lot, do you know how much a tax my car has put on the grid? My electric bill went up less than 10%, thats nothing, we need to make our electric grid cleaner for its own sake, not because of the extra demand electric cars are putting on on its a minimal difference.
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Necros wrote: I can't remember where but I was reading an article about how the battery production is bad for the environment. Right off the assembly line EVs have more of a bad impact, but over the course of 5 years a gas car will have produced far more smog, etc, to double the harmful impact the car's battery production may have had, and just continues to increase from there. But I think the other companies are getting on the bandwagon, I read another article about how Toyota was buying up tons of mines in China a while back, for producing EV batteries.
Also for the power grid, in a perfect world it would be great if homes could produce their own solar power, and run their cars from their own energy collection. That's expensive to install, but would be cool.
I was thinking, it might be cool if EVs could have some kinda solar panel roofs.. might not generate enough power for a full charge but it could be a cool way to negate stuff like vampire drain if you keep you car parked outside at work all day. I watched a video where a guy left his tesla parked at an airport while he was away for a week, the battery was totally dead when he got back and had to get towed home.
And yeah teslas can tow heavy things
People really undersell the damage that oil dependency has. its not just the pollution, from running the car. Its transportation, securing the country where it comes from, you must account for the devastation caused caused by the constant wars and fighting over oil. In the last 60 years how much of the American treasury has gone towards securing oil........people talk about electric tax incentives and subsidies......the US military is a giant oil subsidy that nobody thinks about. Did you know the EPA lists every parcel of land a gas station is on as toxic? Gasoline leaches out of the tanks. How many millions of acres do you think that is. People who make this argument about the environmental impact of batteries rarely look at the whole picture.
Vampire drain really should be minimal unless he did something wrong. Ive heard of people leaving their heat or ac on by accident, that would kill it for sure. In general you should lose maybe a mile a day if your car is just sitting there..
Lone Cat wrote: It is still far from practical especially with its ability to operate during flood or hurricane seasons are in question.
Well, how does that compare to anything else though? Gasoline can be terribly hard to come upon during a flood or a hurricane, when you do someone is usually price gouging for it. Dont forget the lines at the gas station during emergencies. Usually the sun is shining or wind is blowing to create electricity somewhere. If 300 miles cant get you away from the flood or hurricane.....its probably best not to be in a car. And sure globally....its not perfect yet, ecelctric cars are relitivley new as far as this generation of them anyway. a lot of counties have major problems with their electrical grid. Would I buy an EV in India or other countries.....probably not, their grid is pretty iffy. But in the US where our electric is pretty stable and there is a large and evergrowing network of superchargers....I think for 90% of the population it already makes sense, the rest will come as infrastructure grows.
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.
Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.
Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.
Isn't it a bit disingenuous to look at the manufacturing of the electric car battery and it's electricity- and only the emissions of the gas vehicle? Maybe lithium spills are just not reported as much, but I can think of several massive oil spills, like the BP Deepwater Horizon spill, which devastated much of the Gulf of Mexico.
I think if you want to consider the manufacturing process of the electricity, then it is only fair you consider the manufacturing process of the gasoline as well. This is dated, and fairly biased, but does illustrate the point-
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
It's not the cars, it's manufacturing, storing, and transporting vast quantities of H2 to replace gasoline or electricity.
Gasoline is a liquid; flammable, but easily containable. Natural gas is (obviously) a gas, but a fairly large molecule gas. Not as easy to contain as gasoline, but still fairly easily contained even under pressure.
H2 is a tiny molecule gas. Only He is smaller, as each atom of He is it's own 'molecule'. I'm sure you've seen how fast He percolates out of a balloon. Now imagine H2 percolating out of a storage tank or pipeline...
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filbert wrote: We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime...
The trick is, that's not a very profitable business model, and in capitalism the priority is profit uber alles.
What about the existing Hydrogen cars? How well do they contain the gas? Have any of them blown up yet?
And what about the hydrogen filling stations that are already in existence? Are they encountering any problems?
Good questions.
I do not know the answers to any of them - although I suspect if any H2 cars or filling stations had blown up we would have heard about it.
The only point I was making was that the infrastructure will be more complex to build than it was for gas, electricity, or natural gas.... all of which already exist. There needs to be more 'filling' stations for electric cars for them to be truly viable, but the infrastructure to produce and distribute it already exists. The infrastructure to produce, distribute, and store H2 in mass-use-of-H2-powered-vehicles quantity does not exist except in a few places, needs to be built up, and won't be as simple to do as building the gasoline, electrical, and natural gas infrastructure was.
Can it be done? Sure.
WILL it be done, in the face of existing electrical infrastructure and electrical car technology? There's the real question.
Hydrogen filling stations are incredibly expensive also. I think I read somewhere a hydrogen filling station costs a million dollars, a supercharger costs 10K. Hydrogen is as dead as the ICE engine. Yeah you will see them around for awhile but they are going the way of the dodo. I didnt really believe it either until I drove a good EV. It changes your mind pretty instantly.
filbert wrote: Personally, I think electric cars are an evolutionary dead end; I don't think that shifting the fuel burden onto the national grid, which still consists of fossil fuel burning power plants in the main, is a good idea and certainly not if/when millions of people start needing to charge cars all the time - the power demands will be huge, at least here in the UK anyway, unless we want to see vast swathes of land and sea covered in wind farms.
Another factor that is overlooked is the environmental cost of making the batteries in the first place. There are a lot of rare and precious metals that go into making them and they often come from huge strip mines, in 3rd world countries and to the misery of the local population. Frankly, you would have less of an environmental footprint if you were to buy and run a decent second hand car rather than buy a new electric car. Quite honestly, there has been so much built in obsolescence in car manufacturing in recent years. We should be encouraged to use and maintain older cars rather than constantly buying new cars every few years. I think you could drive around in older cars for a lifetime and not approach the ecological damage that making a single electric car causes - not to mention the ongoing damage that will be caused when battery demand spikes upwards.
I would love to see hydrogen fuel cell cars as I think that is a much more viable technological route but it needs more work done - we need the infrastructure in place and the extraction costs of hydrogen need to get lower. James May made a wonderful film in a Top Gear episode where he went to California and test drove a Honda hydrogen car. Honda have been selling (well, leasing) hydrogen vehicles in California for a few years now so it's not like it can't be done - the tech is there but sadly, battery tech seems to have stolen the limelight despite being objectively 'worse' as a solution. It's a bit like the old VHS/Betamax thing all over again.
I'm going to disagree on a few points here. Running electric cars even with the current grid creates less pollution than running cars on gas.....and there is a big push to make our electric grids cleaner and renewable now. The environmental and societal concerns of the batteries isnt really justified when you look at the current environmental and societal concerns that come from gasoline dependence. Lets look at where most oil comes from, how the people live there and how many wars blood and dollars have been used to support it. How many dictators and terrorists get propped up on the petrol dollar? Yeah battery production could be more ethical, but I find it far more ethical than the current state of the Oil business.
That being said we should not just all throw our perfectly good ICE cars away, thats like throwing away your plastic straws to replace them with paper, use your plastic straws, but when it comes time to replace them make the right choice. As far as hydrogen VS electricity......we already have a national electricity grid for transporting and creating electricity in (most) every house in the US. We for sure can make it cleaner, but it already exists. Hydrogen is not power, electricity is power, you actually need electricity to create hydrogen...electricity one less step along the line and as i said already has a great deal of infrastructure. I dont ever want to go back to having to go to filling stations, its so awesome to just get home and plug in the car and give the finger to every gas station on the way home. When I do have to charge away from home...which is rare it does take a few minutes longer for now.....but when I think of all the time I used to spend filling up three times a week at the gas station, its a no brainer.
I just don't see hydrogen happening to many hurdles for not enough gain. With heavy research hydrogen may be able to compete, but then you have the whole infrastructure problem. Right now people are investing in making batteries more efficient and cheaper and that is progressing by leaps and bounds.
You're missing the point. Making a new electric car creates far more pollution than building a new regular car, and way way more than just getting a used car, and the savings of pollution generated by the car itself doesn't justify the switch. It just pushes most of the pollution to the electrical grid and onto the manufacturing side, because electrical cars are made of far more nasty chemicals and materials whose mining and refinement causes much more damage than a typical car.
Hybrids are indeed more eco-friendly because they use far less fuel and aren't using as many exotic materials as a pure electric car.
Electric cars will only be practical once we have widespread cheap non-polluting electricity, like 90%+ nuclear power, AND we have batteries that can last for 500+ hours AND we have charging stations everywhere which can charge a battery in a comparable time to filling a gas tank. But even then we will still have the issues that mining the raw materials is an issue.
History will prove you wrong in a few years.
I don't doubt that we will eventually get to electric vehicles, assuming we transition over to nuclear power for the majority of our electrical production. But for the moment its not something anybody other than the moderately wealthy should consider. Everybody else should use hybrids and gas for the foreseeable future.
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Andrew1975 wrote: Hydrogen filling stations are incredibly expensive also. I think I read somewhere a hydrogen filling station costs a million dollars, a supercharger costs 10K. Hydrogen is as dead as the ICE engine. Yeah you will see them around for awhile but they are going the way of the dodo. I didnt really believe it either until I drove a good EV. It changes your mind pretty instantly.
Dial back on the kool-aid there bro
Electric vehicles for all the reasons we've listed before are woefully premature at this point. 10 years at least, and they'll only be better for the environment if we transition to clean energy production and have better ways of making batteries.
Not to mention, your "good" electric vehicles are pretty much only for wealthy people right now. They're way too expensive.
Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.
Electric vehicles for all the reasons we've listed before are woefully premature at this point. 10 years at least, and they'll only be better for the environment if we transition to clean energy production and have better ways of making batteries.
Not to mention, your "good" electric vehicles are pretty much only for wealthy people right now. They're way too expensive.
Thats funny, i haven't seen any reasons that people have posted that weren't easily put to bed. They are already better for the environment than ICE or hydrogen cars...and will only get better. Ice cars have hit their evolutionary peak, they wont get cleaner or more efficient by more than a few percent here and there, and while they do that they only get more complex, expensive and difficult to maintain. Mazda (sky active X), Nissan (VC TURBO) a few other companies are coming up with ICE engines this year that will get 50MPG, but the ways that they do it increase the complexity of the engine so much......when that thing has a problem.....maintenance is going to be expensive.
As far as "only for the wealthy". If you can afford to buy a new car you can afford an EV. The base model Tesla model 3 is $29k with government incentives, thats not wealthy people money, thats pretty standard for a decent non econobox, (and even the base three is no econobox) my 2011 mazda 3 was 27K...in 2011. Then consider that you have essentially no maintenance and your cost for fuel just got cut by 80%.....I'm sorry, but the cars are a deal. Can you get used cars cheaper...absolutely, and people should still do that if they cant afford a new car. In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.
Are there certain circumstances where an EV wont work as well as an ICE vehicle right now, absolutely. For 90% of people living in the United States, they are the better, more economical and smart option. Oh and the EV is going to retain its value much better than a new ICE car because maintenance is relatively not an issue. You are going to see the value on ICE cars really start to depreciate in the next few years. Which will be great for people that cant afford new cars, but not for those that want to sell them.
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Just Tony wrote: Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.
This is the main problem with most EV's, however superchargers for Tesla are everywhere. I live in a nothing of a town, Sharon PA. its a dying steal town, we dont even have a target, our mall is on the brink of closing, you cant even get good Chinese here.....we have a bank of superchargers.
As far as "only for the wealthy". If you can afford to buy a new car you can afford an EV. The base model Tesla model 3 is $29k with government incentives, thats not wealthy people money, thats pretty standard for a decent non econobox, my 2011 mazda 3 was 27K...in 2011. Then consider that you have essentially no maintenance and your cost for fuel just got cut by 80%.....I'm sorry, but the cars are a deal. Can you get used cars cheaper...absolutely, and people should still do that. In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.
See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.
Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.
Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.
And even when these cars do start showing up used, I highly doubt they're going to keep their value because of how the electronic and battery components degrade. They're not like hybrids that will at least continue to outperform conventional vehicles. By the time a Tesla 3 hits the used car lot its going to have really bad range and come with the added hassle of needing to install a charging station at your house(because for the people who are buying this hypothetical used Tesla, it will certainly be their first car). And in the event that electric cars do so wildly improve like their champions predict, well they're going to make a Tesla 3 look like garbage. So why buy an electric car now when it is far better to wait?
$29k is not a deal for something that will be worthless in 10 years, relies on infrastructure that only barely exists, needs a large amount of time to 'refuel', and requires you to set up a charging station at your house.
Oh, and lets not forget that electric car owners are currently not contributing to public infrastructure because it is almost entirely funded by taxes on gasoline. Electric car and hybrid owners should expect to be hit with a wave of new taxes in the future to compensate for that.
Maintenance is also not less for an electric vehicle. It just happens less often so I think you are blinded by its infrequency. But when it does happen its going to hurt big time. All those proprietary components will always need to be got from the factory and your maintenance will need to be done by the dealership themselves, which will be very expensive if you're on the road nowhere near a Tesla dealership when your battery dies or the motor gives out.
As far as "only for the wealthy". If you can afford to buy a new car you can afford an EV. The base model Tesla model 3 is $29k with government incentives, thats not wealthy people money, thats pretty standard for a decent non econobox, my 2011 mazda 3 was 27K...in 2011. Then consider that you have essentially no maintenance and your cost for fuel just got cut by 80%.....I'm sorry, but the cars are a deal. Can you get used cars cheaper...absolutely, and people should still do that. In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.
See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.
Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.
Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.
And even when these cars do start showing up used, I highly doubt they're going to keep their value because of how the electronic and battery components degrade. They're not like hybrids that will at least continue to outperform conventional vehicles. By the time a Tesla 3 hits the used car lot its going to have really bad range and come with the added hassle of needing to install a charging station at your house(because for the people who are buying this hypothetical used Tesla, it will certainly be their first car). And in the event that electric cars do so wildly improve like their champions predict, well they're going to make a Tesla 3 look like garbage. So why buy an electric car now when it is far better to wait?
$29k is not a deal for something that will be worthless in 10 years, relies on infrastructure that only barely exists, needs a large amount of time to 'refuel', and requires you to set up a charging station at your house.
Oh, and lets not forget that electric car owners are currently not contributing to public infrastructure because it is almost entirely funded by taxes on gasoline. Electric car and hybrid owners should expect to be hit with a wave of new taxes in the future to compensate for that.
Maintenance is also not less for an electric vehicle. It just happens less often so I think you are blinded by its infrequency. But when it does happen its going to hurt big time. All those proprietary components will always need to be got from the factory and your maintenance will need to be done by the dealership themselves, which will be very expensive if you're on the road nowhere near a Tesla dealership when your battery dies or the motor gives out.
Oh man are you horribly uninformed, its ok most people are when it comes to EVs.
Firstly your argument is that EVS are not affordable because no new cars are affordable is....well awful. If no new cars are affordable than you cant single that out as an issue with EVs.
I have bought many cars in my days, used and new. The issue with used cars is you never really know how the other owners treated them, Thats a much bigger issue with ICE cars than Electric cars. Its easy to tell if an electric car has been abused you just look at how much of a charge it will take. Go ahead an roll the dice on that $2000 ICE car,,,because thats what you are doing, you are buying someone elses problems. New cars have always been a better investment for me, I take care of my cars and they last for a long time, case in point my wife and I both bought new cars in 2011, never had any issues with them because I know how to maintain a car properly. Used cars, even though I know what I'm looking for, are always a crap shoot.
You're idea that electric cars degrade is false. Teslas actually resist abuse much better than ICE cars. Outside agencies have run Teslas for near a million miles and show minimal degradation to the battery, motors or performance. Try measuring the performance of an old ICE car, horsepower lose is a huge problem with ICE cars as they get older, they also lose a great deal of efficiency, the wear and tear on an ICE car is inevitable because of the inherent violence involved with how they work, combined with the many extra thousands of moving parts.
Yeah, we dont pay Gasoline tax. Gasoline tax is bs anyway. Most gasoline taxes go into the general fund and only a small percent actually go back into the infrastructure, its just an easy way to sneak in a tax to pay for whatever. Combine that with the cost we pay to defend gasoline and oil throughout the world and EV drivers are a bargain. How much of my taxes go to funding the defense of the middle east and its oil reserves? Roads should come out of the general fund anyway, its not just drivers that benefit from them, Aunt May sitting at home ordering stuff from Amazon benefits from our road infrastructure, she may not drive on it...but she benefits from it, every ones does, everyone should pay. If ypu want me to be hit with taxes for road maintenance fine, but I want a rebate for defense spending and environmental issues associated with oil.
Maintenance is less considerably less on an EV. Again they resist abuse much better and are actually hard to abuse, you have to sit on a full or empty charge to really degrade them otherwise they lose about 1% a year, which is minimal. The motors are rated for 1 million miles, not to mention that they slowly degrade, they don't break like components in an ICE motor. there goes my transmission, there goes my cylinder head gasket, there goes my water pump...without warning! You are just flat out wrong about this.
as for your idea that some technology will come in EVS that will make the 3 dinosour.....im not sure what that could be except range as the actual performance of them is already more than most people need! My car goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and has a top speed of 162 miles an hour, and even the base model 3 is up there, so im not sure what would need improving as far as performance. Range, the base model 3 gets 220 miles, mine gets 310, this is more than enough for 90 percent of the population. I dont find the charging time an issue, its different, but its not an issue. ICE cars waste time every time they fill up. I need to fill up only on long journeys and that time is constantly getting shorter and shorter. Now if there is some quantum leap.....im pretty sure it will be easy to swap out the battery. Currently batteries are $9k, but thats expected to go down significantly.
And that is the beauty of EV's especially Teslas. The software gets updates, my car has actually gotten better since I bought it, its actually gotten faster because of an update! Its gotten safer because of an update, and when Full Self Drive happens........I'll get an update! There is not one ICE or Hybrid that you can say that about. The components are designed to be plug and play. Swapping out a battery or a motor is pretty easy (Tesla actually designed the batteries to originally be hot swapped to cut down charging time, this became unnecessary as charging tech progressed) compared to lets say replacing an ICE motor or transmission or fuel injection system. Not only that most of it is housed and doesn't get filthy and caked up with crap, oil and various fluids covering in grime and road dirt, or some corrosive making maintenance a nightmare. You ever have to use a ocy torch to remove a bolt or cut an exhaust or motor mount...not gonna happen in the Tesla. You remove the panels and all the components are CLEAN like factory CLEAN with the exception of you suspension which needs to be exposed for obvious reasons. No sir maintenance is comparatively a non issue!
Setting up a charging station at home is easy, I did it myself, there are plenty of tutorials online, at worst you need to call an electrician, it should run you $300. Now if you live in an apartment or rent your home, that could be an issue.
I get it, its a brave new world and most people don't know anything about it, but I've done my research. I had many of the same thoughts when it came time to buy a new car (Deer jumped in front of me while I was doing 75 on the freeway at about 5 in the morning) I was set on trading my Mazda in for a new Mazda 3 with the 50 MPG sky active X engine in October when they came out...but the Deer had other plans. My brother owns his own engineering company and does some work for Tesla, and suggested it to me, I fought him tooth and nail on it, but he gave me the data and info. Again I'm a car guy, I've rebuilt and bored out the engine on a 69 Hugger Orange GTO. I didn't make this decision lightly.
I have to chuckle at all the "Hey, they only cost $xxxxx with Gov't incentives" posts.
Yeah, when the tax payers have to step up to make YOUR car affordable, then perhaps it really isn't all that affordable?
Something else I've not seen brought up is the use of rare earth metals, which are getting more expensive and which China is doing a pretty good job of about cornering the market on. US mines are about stopped due to environmental issues driving up costs.
The 'They're not affordable because no new car is affordable' argument is just sublime
CptJake wrote: I have to chuckle at all the "Hey, they only cost $xxxxx with Gov't incentives" posts.
Yeah, when the tax payers have to step up to make YOUR car affordable, then perhaps it really isn't all that affordable?
If it makes it more affordable to the end buyer then that's all that's relevant in the 'is it more affordable to the user than a petrol car' argument, which was the one they were having.
I do wonder how the costs stack up in countries where petrol isn't as cheap as it is in the US. I imagine the savings for people who drive a lot in Norway or Iceland or Israel must pile up fast.
Grey Templar wrote: See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.
Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.
Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.
There are some real problems with these arguments, honestly, in excess of the value or lack thereof of electric vehicles.
First, putting down half the value on a new car is kind of a crazy ask. I put down $10K on my $35k car, and that was probably too much of a down payment, honestly. If I saved $10k a year and put down $20K on a downpayment as you suggest, inflation ate 3% of that when it was time to buy. My credit union charges 1.9%, and I can drive the car while making those payments.
Where can you buy any new car for $10k? So far as I know there is not a single car on the market that meets that criteria of any kind.
I think I agree with pretty much everything else you said in this thread though. Electric is definitely the future, but not yet the now. Maybe 10 years.
CptJake wrote: I have to chuckle at all the "Hey, they only cost $xxxxx with Gov't incentives" posts.
Yeah, when the tax payers have to step up to make YOUR car affordable, then perhaps it really isn't all that affordable?
Something else I've not seen brought up is the use of rare earth metals, which are getting more expensive and which China is doing a pretty good job of about cornering the market on. US mines are about stopped due to environmental issues driving up costs.
The element question is valid and leads to even more questions. The subsidy argument will be ignored or ridiculed because of how many people here operate in an environment where they get to take advantage of those subsidies constantly.
Mind you, looking at the number of times various governments have bailed out different motor industries I don't think anyone can claim any kind of car is without subsidies.
In terms of pollution the CO2 from traditional cars is what the world really, really needs to reduce now as it's a guaranteed route for global disaster,
so despite the problems with electric car battery manufacture they are a better bet simply because the pollution they cause is more local and more amenable to being prevented or mediated if the will to do so was there
Not really a fan of electrics, hopefully I’m dead before I can’t fill up my gas guzzling V8 with high octane goodness any more. I figure I probably pollute less by keeping my classic cars on the road than I would if I bought a new car every few years anyway.
I’ve long thought the best solution is to make lightweight cars that run conventional engines and just use very little power. Of course the industry is going the opposite direction with folk wanting more and more luxury in their cars that helps weigh them down, and safety regulations don’t help. Don’t we have enough people in the world that we can cut back on safety yet?
All cars are expensive now. I think it’s all the tech they are adding in, like trunks you open by waving your foot or your car stopping for you because people are too busy looking at cellphones and forgot they were supposed to watch the road, and apple carplay and whatever else. I was in the market for a new SUV, probably a jeep wrangler or grand cherokee.. I was pretty bummed when I saw that for either of those I need to cough up $40,000 for a worthwhile model. I looked into the new Honda Passport and a few others, same thing. I paid $25k for my 2008 wrangler, and I know they get more expensive each year, seems like a ripoff having it go up $15k for pretty much the same thing I had before as far as trim goes.
So that’s when I started looking at Teslas and even without the tax incentives, if I’m gonna have to spend $40k anyway, a $40k tesla will get me to work and back, and my sister’s place in NYC in 1 charge, I have the convenience of ever having to go to a gas station again and I’ll save myself at least $1000 a year in fuel and maintenance. Well, I think maintenance might be little more expensive on the tesla, but it’s not mandatory to the point of killing your car like changing your oil. They recommend something like $400 the first year and then $800 the next, but it’s not mandatory, just suggested mainteance. I also like that the warranty is 8 years and something like 120k miles. My current jeep was 3 years 36k miles. I usually get a new car every 4-5 years. But, since the model 3 is a sporty sedan and I’ve always been a SUV guy, there’s a good chance I may hate sitting in the street when I test drive it .. if that’s the case, I may have to just wait on the Model Y in 2 years, or look into some EVs from the other companies, but Tesla’s seem to have more tech and more extras like a supercharger network that I can use in addition to other company’s charging stations. I’m not sure if you can charge a Nissan Leaf at a tesla supercharger station?
For me though, I think for average driving I’d be perfectly fine with the basic cable that comes with the tesla, you plug into a standard outlet and gives you like 5 miles per hour of charging. I do 70 miles a day, I come home from work, plug er in, and it should be all recharged by the time I’m ready to leave in the AM. Though I would probably look into getting the wall charger that goes up to 25 miles per hour, I kinda think it might be better to keep the basic cable in the car all the time so I have it for emergencies.
I really do feel that over the next decade you’re gonna see a lot more EVs and people adopting them over ICE cars for the majority of the population, especially as more and faster charging stations start popping up. yeah there’s always gonna be people that need a big pickup or whatever, and that’s fine. but your average person commuting to work or over the river and through the woods to grandma’s house, I think an EV is a great idea.
Estate car? I googled, we call them Station Wagons here
Those are fine, there's just very few options for those now, because everyone in 'murica needs bigger and better, so it's all SUVs. And I think a lot of the soccer moms didn't want to be considered a soccer mom, so they went with a bigger SUV with 3 rows of seats rather than a mini van.
The only real station wagons you see are the Subaru Outback, really rare to see from other companies. I considered getting one of them last time, but at the time She Who Must Be Obeyed decreed I have to buy an American car.. so I went with a Jeep Renegade, which it turns out is just a Fiat reskin with 4WD, and made in Italy
Grey Templar wrote: See, I do not consider that affordable. I was taught that when it came to cars only buy what you can afford to pay in cash OR if you must use credit only do it when you can put at least 50% of its value as a down payment. Most people can't do that for a ~$30k car, so I would not say it is affordable at all.
Because of this, the masses really can't afford to buy new cars. Now people do do that, but they're making a huge mistake for something that loses a massive chunk of its value the moment you drive it off the lot. $29k is far more than anybody who isn't wealthy should be spending on a car, and those who can should just be paying in cash. Buying new cars on credit is perhaps the biggest mistake a person can make financially. Even though most people CAN do it, I do not consider that a valid argument since nobody should be doing that. And frankly, spending a hair under $30k on a fad car is a colossal waste of money when you could buy a decent used car for a third of that and put the rest of the money towards something more productive.
Until these cars are showing up for $10k or under, I do not in any way consider that 'affordable'. $30k is downpayment on a house territory, or just flat out buying a house in some areas, anybody paying that much for a short term investment like a car needs to reevaluate their priorities, unless you are literally just a wealthy individual buying a new toy.
There are some real problems with these arguments, honestly, in excess of the value or lack thereof of electric vehicles.
First, putting down half the value on a new car is kind of a crazy ask. I put down $10K on my $35k car, and that was probably too much of a down payment, honestly. If I saved $10k a year and put down $20K on a downpayment as you suggest, inflation ate 3% of that when it was time to buy. My credit union charges 1.9%, and I can drive the car while making those payments.
Where can you buy any new car for $10k? So far as I know there is not a single car on the market that meets that criteria of any kind.
I think I agree with pretty much everything else you said in this thread though. Electric is definitely the future, but not yet the now. Maybe 10 years.
I was talking about putting down half the value of a used car. And not to buy new ever, unless you are rich enough to buy it outright.
The government incentive on the Model 3 is just cherry on the top for EV buyers, the car is worth what they are asking based on how it performs alone. I agree with the incentives when I think about the government trying to support a new technology that is beneficial for the country. The US auto industry is not doing great in general, factories are closing, Ford doesn't even make a Sedan anymore. The big three say they cant make cars that compete.........Yet Tesla comes out of nowhere and has the number 1 selling American car in the united states, BOOM! The only thing holding them back is they cant make them fast enough. There is no doubt that EVs are the future. Tesla just shipped 10s of thousands of units to Europe and Asia and is taking market share from many foreign auto makers here and around the world, the government should support that if it wants The US to have a strong auto industry in the future. Im not as big a fan when I hear that next year cheap Chinese EVS are going to get the same US government incentive when they sell cars here. The Chinese government believes in EVS so much that they are doing everything they can to support their domestic EV manufacturing, China wants to be a auto manufacturer, but that hasn't worked out too well for them in the past. They see an opportunity here it corner the market on EV production and their government is going all in, giving loans and land to their manufacturers! So i see great value in The US supporting domestic EV growth, we want to be the provider of these cars to the world and hold onto our manufacturing base.
And I also hate our move to everyone driving an SUV. They are gakky cars for daily driving. Unless you live where you need one or are an enthusiast who goes "Mudding" they are a poor car choice. Their high center of gravity and tippy nature makes them less than ideal vs a Sedan or a mini van.
Necros, have you looked at the official maintenance schedule for the Model 3, its a joke, don't spend the money. Its a tire rotation, fluid top off and a multi point inspection, they change your air filter and brake fluid every 25K miles, I have never drained and replaced the brake fluid in any of my cars....EVER, topped off sure after a brake job, and with the amount you use the classic brakes in a Tesla.....this is just unwarranted. If you go to the Tesla forums nobody recommends these, its service you can easily do yourself and is not mandatory. Like I said, I know people that have had their car for years, tires, windshield wiper fluid and windshield wipers.....that is the extent of the maintenance needed on a car that is 4 years old and has 200K miles on it. Now to be fair, my 2011 Mazda three only required the same thing plus oil changes and a brake job at 250K miles, it was a well built car except for one issue ill get into later. My wifes 2011 300 has needed minimal maintenance also, oils changes and brake jobs being the most intense, oh and a door handle cable broke under warranty....which is nothing. My biggest complaint I had about my Mazda, which could be see as serious was it had a pretty serious non adjustable camber issue on the suspension which improved the driving dynamics......but ate tires way to fast even with regular rotations. Good tires are not cheap, so it was a major flaw.
Oh and the only thing you can charge at a Tesla Supercharger is a Tesla. They do give you an adapter that will let you charge at most other EV stations, but with the amount of superchargers out there, I think needing the adapter is situational at best.
I can appreciate your enthusiasm for your electric car, but you're stating things which are solely based around a consumer experience with a new electric car. That's more or less irrelevant to most of the discussion we're having. You can get a very reasonable lease with included-service for almost any new car, and swap it out every 3-4 years and never "pay" for buying the car or even genuine serious maintenance.
We're not talking about performance of an electric car or how cool it feels to drive one. We're talking about electric cars as an actual solution to replacing ICE powered vehicles and fossil fuels. At current tech levels, it's simply not the answer.
The cars are producing serious waste just from manufacturing, and again long-term battery disposal will be a genuine issue. We're not talking about mileage, we're talking about 10-15-20 year old massive battery packs being disposed of. We're talking about usefulness of EVs outside of a first world urban city environment. We're talking about the limited application on a world wide market. We're talking about the lack of useful power grids in "most" countries in the world. Heck most modern US cities are operating near max capacity on their power grids and literally couldn't accept a sudden switch to electric vehicles anyway.
Honestly if you were concerned about the actual environment, you'd be looking in a completely different direction than EVs. It's a short term solution to "feeling good" without really doing much good. It's a fix it now, worry about it later method. The market longevity in itself is a massive risk.
I don't really care how much an EV can or cannot save a consumer. I'm interested in worldwide applications, and EVs are a drop in the bucket. As mentioned before, they're good for manufacturers because A) they can sell them with government backed subsidies (i.e. boost their own sales using taxpayer money), B) They can promote accurate and false information about how progressive and forward thinking they are (see also: "feeling good"), C) They can reduce work forces at plants producing vehicles if they can get EVs to become more popular. I'll give a guess which two of those three are the most important ones.
For the people discussing normal Co2 emissions from road cars, that's a surprisingly small amount of pollution in the world scheme, particularly from well-regulated first world country vehicles. Heavy industry, trucking and air travel produce more (see: all of the exempted "developing nations" with zero environmental restrictions - think China is interested in EVs because of their environmental impact? Think again. That country loses 750,000 people a year from lung cancer due to coal-firing plants...China wants the money from EV sales.)
As a world-changing device, EVs are a joke, but they're a fine consumer product for people who want them. Even if 40% of US cars suddenly became EVs, the environmental impact would be minimal.
Without actual data it's useless to talk about the problems of battery recycling.
The batteries are broken down to recover the elements, which are recycled into new batteries.
This is the same idea as recycling parts like the catalytic convertor of an ICE vehicle.
As for pollution, my town has the worst air quality in South Oxfordshire, and that is caused by ICE vehicles idling as they wait to get through. Most cities in the UK are the same, regularly breaking health limits for pollution caused by ICE vehicles.
I was talking about putting down half the value of a used car. And not to buy new ever, unless you are rich enough to buy it outright.
You need to look at total cost of ownership and not purchase price. When you consider fuel and maintenance costs you may find it's cheaper to run a $30k EV than a $10k ICE over few years as the purchase price is amortized and offset against fuel savings.
I know people whose monthly car payments for EV is less than they paid for gas in their last car. Admittedly we're about $9/gallon.
Andrew1975 wrote: In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.
Given the fact of battery degradation, there's no way in the world I'm buying a used electric car unless it comes with new batteries. At which point it will pretty much be a new car and cost as much as a new car.
Sure, you can buy a used electric car with used batteries... for about the same effect as buying an ICE car that's never had it's oil changed.
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Just Tony wrote: Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.
This is the main problem with most EV's, however superchargers for Tesla are everywhere. I live in a nothing of a town, Sharon PA. its a dying steal town, we dont even have a target, our mall is on the brink of closing, you cant even get good Chinese here.....we have a bank of superchargers.
ToC doesn't have a one. For that matter, never seen one in Los Cruces, a city of over 100,000 some 75 miles away. Sure, YOUR small town has superchargers. Not all - or even most - of them do. That factor will loom large in the acceptance of EVs until it changes all over.
Elbows wrote: I can appreciate your enthusiasm for your electric car, but you're stating things which are solely based around a consumer experience with a new electric car. That's more or less irrelevant to most of the discussion we're having. You can get a very reasonable lease with included-service for almost any new car, and swap it out every 3-4 years and never "pay" for buying the car or even genuine serious maintenance.
We're not talking about performance of an electric car or how cool it feels to drive one. We're talking about electric cars as an actual solution to replacing ICE powered vehicles and fossil fuels. At current tech levels, it's simply not the answer.
The cars are producing serious waste just from manufacturing, and again long-term battery disposal will be a genuine issue. We're not talking about mileage, we're talking about 10-15-20 year old massive battery packs being disposed of. We're talking about usefulness of EVs outside of a first world urban city environment. We're talking about the limited application on a world wide market. We're talking about the lack of useful power grids in "most" countries in the world. Heck most modern US cities are operating near max capacity on their power grids and literally couldn't accept a sudden switch to electric vehicles anyway.
Honestly if you were concerned about the actual environment, you'd be looking in a completely different direction than EVs. It's a short term solution to "feeling good" without really doing much good. It's a fix it now, worry about it later method. The market longevity in itself is a massive risk.
I don't really care how much an EV can or cannot save a consumer. I'm interested in worldwide applications, and EVs are a drop in the bucket. As mentioned before, they're good for manufacturers because A) they can sell them with government backed subsidies (i.e. boost their own sales using taxpayer money), B) They can promote accurate and false information about how progressive and forward thinking they are (see also: "feeling good"), C) They can reduce work forces at plants producing vehicles if they can get EVs to become more popular. I'll give a guess which two of those three are the most important ones.
For the people discussing normal Co2 emissions from road cars, that's a surprisingly small amount of pollution in the world scheme, particularly from well-regulated first world country vehicles. Heavy industry, trucking and air travel produce more (see: all of the exempted "developing nations" with zero environmental restrictions - think China is interested in EVs because of their environmental impact? Think again. That country loses 750,000 people a year from lung cancer due to coal-firing plants...China wants the money from EV sales.)
As a world-changing device, EVs are a joke, but they're a fine consumer product for people who want them. Even if 40% of US cars suddenly became EVs, the environmental impact would be minimal.
Leasing is financially the worst option for most people unless you own your own company. You end up paying for the depreciation of the vehicle which everyone knows is greatest in the first few years.
"We're talking about electric cars as an actual solution to replacing ICE powered vehicles and fossil fuels." That's funny, I thought we were answering this question from the OP "So just curious… what are you thoughts on modern electric cars? Any good? Here to stay? Would you ever consider getting one?" considering he was thinking of buying one and I have personal experience with the model 3 he is thinking of getting, and all the arguments as to why its one of the best cars evey made.
I'm not a hippy, I bought my model 3 because I needed a new reliable car, and in my opinion you cant beat the value of the model 3 from the base line to the performance version. You get more car for your money with the model 3. You get better performance, ease of use, lower energy bills and lower maintenance cost, in a package that happens to be better for the environment and I get to buy American Win, Win, and Win!
You can't even compare the environmental issues of the model 3 with Ice cars. Ice emissions are just the tip of the ICEberg, oil is a filthy business, how many acres of the world are toxic because of oil spills, how many petty dictators and terrorists get their funding from the petro dollar? The United states has spent $5.9 Trillion dollars and, how much damage has been done over there in the name of oil?
I agree China doesnt care about the environment, but that wasn't my point. China is doubling down on the EV market because they want to corner it, their attempts to enter in auto manufacturing have been a joke, this could put them on the world stage, while being the nail in the coffin for the BIG THREE American auto manufacturers.
Do EVS work everywhere today, no of course not. We are dealing with the first generation of mass produced EVs, and the Model 3 already beats ICE cars in almost every way and ICE have been around for 150 years! Thats how first gen tech works, it only gets better, Tesla is already working on a rugged pickup truck with a battery capable of 500 miles. The OP doesnt live in SUb Sahara Africa, Antarctica or even India, so I think its a pretty good choice for him. The rest of the world will catch up as the tech comes along.
Andrew1975 wrote: In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.
Given the fact of battery degradation, there's no way in the world I'm buying a used electric car unless it comes with new batteries. At which point it will pretty much be a new car and cost as much as a new car.
Sure, you can buy a used electric car with used batteries... for about the same effect as buying an ICE car that's never had it's oil changed.
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Just Tony wrote: Once they make charging stations more plentiful I will consider an electric. Not until then. I already had a headache one year I rented an E85. It's shocking how sparse fill ups for them really are.
This is the main problem with most EV's, however superchargers for Tesla are everywhere. I live in a nothing of a town, Sharon PA. its a dying steal town, we dont even have a target, our mall is on the brink of closing, you cant even get good Chinese here.....we have a bank of superchargers.
ToC doesn't have a one. For that matter, never seen one in Los Cruces, a city of over 100,000 some 75 miles away. Sure, YOUR small town has superchargers. Not all - or even most - of them do. That factor will loom large in the acceptance of EVs until it changes all over.
Battery degradation is easy to spot, and its far less of a problem than ICE degradation on the thousands of components and moving parts, you just check the charge, much easy than rolling the Dice on an ICE car. What components are you going to check on the ICE car, you gonna dyno it and check its horsepower, you gonna take apart the engine and make sure the seals and gaskets are good? You gonna open the transmission case and check to see if there is sawdust in it?
There are official Supercharger Stations, there are also many businesses that have "Destination" supercharger stations, there is also an app called Plugshare that lists where private people and businesses have chargers you can use. It really not that hard to find charging if you need it.
By the way if you were driving from ToC (wherever that is) to Los Cruces you could make it there and just plug in at home when you got back, no need to stop. The lowest end Model 3 has 220 miles of range on a charge.
Batteries from EVs can be used as-is in all sorts of other uses when they become unsuitable for driving.
The thing people seem to miss is the performance. Base Tesla Model 3s get to 60 in under 6 seconds. They can beat most non-cars just without the noise or fuel.
Andrew1975 wrote: In a few years teslas will funnel into the used car market and they will be a great deal for people.
Given the fact of battery degradation, there's no way in the world I'm buying a used electric car unless it comes with new batteries. At which point it will pretty much be a new car and cost as much as a new car.
Sure, you can buy a used electric car with used batteries... for about the same effect as buying an ICE car that's never had it's oil our.
Batteries degrade, sure, but not as badly as other types of battery for various reasons; there's a monitoring and conditioning going on.
Tesla with 100,00s of miles still have something like 95% of their range.
It'll still be a concern for the older shorter range cars (losing some of a 60 mile range is going to hurt a lot more than losing some of a 300 mile range).
The only thing EVs won't be able to do better than has is long range towing and heavy off grid use. You can charge anywhere with electricity now, and fast charging infrastructure will catch up to demand as it's needed.
EVs seem to all have long warranties. Teslas are 100k miles or maybe it was 120k.. I looked at others and they're also real high. Assuming that's around when the battery life starts to go down a bit. I wouldn't have my car that long, I usually get a new car every 4-5 years, I think the most I ever had was around 70k miles.
Still though, I don't think there will be huge landfills full of dead old tesla batteries.. I mean, wouldn't they be recycled/reconditioned/retooled, etc?
The batteries are full of valuable metals. The batteries gradually degrade in performance because the insulation breaks down or becomes permeated as metal ions migrate under the influence of the voltage. The metals are still in there, though, and can be recovered and made into new batteries.
Another example of recycling is regenerative braking. This is when the car slows itself by the resistance of the motors being run "backwards" and generating power tp put back into the battery. Not only does this recover energy as electricity, it also avoids use of the conventional brakes, saving wear on the brake pads.
Necros wrote: Still though, I don't think there will be huge landfills full of dead old tesla batteries.. I mean, wouldn't they be recycled/reconditioned/retooled, etc?
They are great for using to store energy from solar panels, I believe Tesla has some kind of battery system for that too (so you charge the garage battery from a solar panel during the day, and transfer that to the car at night). They can also be reconditioned or recycled, so there's minimal waste.
Some EV's come with leased batteries, so you buy the car and rent the battery. That means once it drops below a given threshold (about 75%) you'll get it replaced under the lease. It does make it a bit more expensive than owning though but with the additional peace of mind.
Necros wrote: EVs seem to all have long warranties. Teslas are 100k miles or maybe it was 120k.. I looked at others and they're also real high. Assuming that's around when the battery life starts to go down a bit. I wouldn't have my car that long, I usually get a new car every 4-5 years, I think the most I ever had was around 70k miles.
Still though, I don't think there will be huge landfills full of dead old tesla batteries.. I mean, wouldn't they be recycled/reconditioned/retooled, etc?
Just take one for a test drive and forget all this other stuff. You will either like it or you wont. If you like it and take it home, you will soon fall in love with it, you will laugh every time you pass a gas station, every time you dust some ICE car with it. Ive take quite a few scalps in my car already from ICE drivers who didnt know the 3 is a performer.
MinscS2 wrote: I think that electric cars, in their current form, will become a parenthesis in car history and nothing more.
They are not a solution.
They're at best a bandaid, and at worst they are making the situation worse in the long run, by taking focus, time and resources away from where it would be of most use.
Do you have any reasoning behind what you're saying?
Do you believe hydrogen fuel is a better solution, perhaps running a fuel cell to produce electricity to run an electric motor?
Imagine all the effort needed to transport and contain H2. It's a molecule so small it can percolate through many other materials that we'd ordinarily consider gas-proof, especially when held under pressure.
It wouldn't be simple. Not one bit.
What about the existing hydrogen models? The Honda one for example? Do they fall short?
Hydrogen has the advantages of being easy to produce, and burning "clean" either as an internal combustion fuel, or in a "fuel cell" to produce electricity directly. The exhaust in either case is water. The disadvantage is the difficulty of storing and transporting it, compared to petrol or electricity.
There isn't any existing infrastructure for refuelling hydrogen cars.
The Hindenburg was exploded by the flammable dope on its external skin.
Despite the terrible conflagration, almost 2/3rds of the passengers and crew survived. This was because hydrogen goes upwards so quickly it barely has time to cause a fire.
It could be different if you've got a car with a liquid hydrogen fuel tank which got a puncture, because the hydrogen will start to boil off and jet out through the hole.
Of course, it's also bad news if you get a puncture in the fuel tank of a conventional car, and the fuel just pours onto the ground.
Maybe EVs are the way of the future. If Tesla continues to go forward with more than 75% of their operating cash coming from customer deposits, the company itself may not be long lived.
CptJake wrote: Since we're all so enamored at the Wonders of Tesla, it may be a bit eye opening to read the following about the financial situation of the company:
Maybe EVs are the way of the future. If Tesla continues to go forward with more than 75% of their operating cash coming from customer deposits, the company itself may not be long lived.
Yeah, Im mot sure who wrote this, Tesla sales were low in Q4 of last year and so far in Q1 of this year because they were putting them in boats and shipping them to China and Europe. Right now Tesla has problems, but most of them are good. They can not make cars fast enough to deliver them, there are still wait lists for the cars. Those cars they shipped to Europe and Asia were mostly preorders to so the second they hit the ground they are sold. We will se what the final numbers of Q1 are I guess, I know they have had trouble clearing customs and other delivery issues with this being their first major shipment abroad....I dont really see that being an issue. They are chewing through money building new facilities, so it may take them awhile to turn a profit....but we will see.
There are a lot of people shorting Tesla hoping that they fail and rake in some money. There are also the lobbies and political might of the BIG THREE, trying to take them down like they did Tucker and Street Cars, and essentially any other competition . Its too bad, they are GREAT cars, so we will see what happens. I've already put my money down (purchased and took delivery, not like a reservation) on the car and bought stock when it was cheap......its been a crazy ride watching it though. Tesla stock is bipolar, it feels like its up when it should be down, and down when it should be up. If im wrong im wrong, if I'm right I bought apple stock when it was cheap.....whatever.
One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.
So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.
I was responding to a post about tesla, bit heads. Yes some major car makers are going electric, and they aren't getting locked out like tesla did.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Electric cars are likely the wave of the future if technological society has a future. One improvement to them might be a modular battery system that allowed rapid and easy battery changes. So a driver on a long trip could just pull into a service station, swap out his batteries and be back on the road in minutes. The batteries would be charged at the station which would automatically check them for faults and failures then be made available to the next driver who needs to keep going.
Old batteries would be recycled, of course, and all electric cars should be made of as much recycled material as possible and be designed from the start for maximum recyclability.
Kilkrazy wrote: Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.
Teslas problems with US states is more to do with dealership monopolies than the powertrain, as I understand it. Tesla is trying to go for a dealership light option (by ditching them entirely), but a lot of states don't allow that.
Teslas reports tend to look pretty bad because they are making huge re-investment in future lines. Most of the profit from the S went into making the X, most of the profit from the 3 went into making the Y, then there's the investment in the truck and the semi and so on.
Once they've caught up, assuming no major disasters, they'll be pretty financially comfortable. The biggest problem they have at the moment is getting production numbers up to match the customer demand.
Electric cars are likely the wave of the future if technological society has a future. One improvement to them might be a modular battery system that allowed rapid and easy battery changes. So a driver on a long trip could just pull into a service station, swap out his batteries and be back on the road in minutes. The batteries would be charged at the station which would automatically check them for faults and failures then be made available to the next driver who needs to keep going.
I think that route is a dead end, because the infrastructure for swapping batteries is going to be difficult, it'll restrict the layout of the batteries, and customers won't be happy using random batteries.
Fast charging is improving rapidly too. I think Tesla now claim to be able to add about 87 miles of range in about 5 minutes.
The road trip approach may need to change slightly to match the technology - it won't be possible to drive 2000 miles with 5 minute stops every 500 miles for fuel. But realistically, a 300 mile range Tesla means you're only stopping for 20ish minutes every 4 hours @ 70mph. You should probably be taking a break every 2-4 hours anyway, and if the car is full of people you'll be stopping to pee more often anyway. For the travelling salesmen it means they can sit at a road stop and do admin work whilst having a snack/coffee.
On the flip side it means fuel costs much less, there's more fuel for actual fun uses, and you can charge more or less anywhere with electricity - malls, restaurants, cinemas, and so on.
The only people EV's will suck for is dual driver trucks, as they can't just hotswap out since the bottleneck will be charging the truck. Or people towing heavy stuff long distance as the range will drop drastically.
Techpriestsupport wrote: One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.
So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.
The road trip approach may need to change slightly to match the technology - it won't be possible to drive 2000 miles with 5 minute stops every 500 miles for fuel. But realistically, a 300 mile range Tesla means you're only stopping for 20ish minutes every 4 hours @ 70mph. You should probably be taking a break every 2-4 hours anyway, and if the car is full of people you'll be stopping to pee more often anyway. For the travelling salesmen it means they can sit at a road stop and do admin work whilst having a snack/coffee.
The big thing people forget to mention is that those trips are rare for the vast majority of people, and over all I would guess people will spend much less time charging that getting petrol. Yes, once or twice a year some people will have to do multi stop trips, but how much of that is offset by never having to visit a petrol station the rest of the year?
We go from visiting a petrol station once a week or so which, if you are not on a long trip, often means you going out of the way to some extent, and between fuelling and paying it is probably 15 mins every week where you have to be involved, to spending 45 mins charging occasionally, in which you can go to the loo, have some food, etc. The technology exists so that you don't need to even pay, the car will be able to do it for you, it just needs to be implemented.
The rest of the year your car will be fully fuelled on your drive every morning, and when infrastructure improves (which it is doing fast) you will be able to do the same when you park at the shops or for work.
How far did Sweden get with the roll-out of its in-road charging strips that started last year? That seems a straightforward solution to limited range of electric vehicles.
I've no idea of it's true viability or scalability, but I like its Scalextric vibe.
1.They're too damn quiet. I know, it seems like a silly issue but, they are very hard to detect in parking lots and garages and have had one slip up on me a time or two. With less aware pedestrians and drivers I could see some real issues.
2. The way we make electricity isn't exactly good for the environment either.
Electricity can be pretty clean, and even coal/oil is a much more efficient source from a single huge power station than gas is in thousands of tiny combustion engines. You've also got much better options for carbon capture from a station than a tailpipe.
Noise can be an issue; I thought most had external speakers to make them a bit more obvious but I've never actually looked into it.
1.They're too damn quiet. I know, it seems like a silly issue but, they are very hard to detect in parking lots and garages and have had one slip up on me a time or two. With less aware pedestrians and drivers I could see some real issues.
... ...
There is something in that. OTOH it's astonishing how many pedestrians who walk around with headphones in, looking at their phones, and wouldn't notice a clown car with a foghorn on it.
Whatever. It would be simple to equip EVs with a circuit to beam an alert sound externally when travelling at speeds under 30mph.
What if Tesla offered franchises where a biz owner could buy one, kinda like buying a mcdonalds .. and they sell the cars (for the same price as online, no haggling) and do the service and get trained by the tesla pros from Mars .. Would that be a way around the dealership laws for those states that have them?
Also, can another EV like a Chevy Bolt use a Tesla Supercharger station? Under the impression that only teslas can use them, which seems kinda bad for EVs in general, would be best if any EV can use any charging station.
I think over time the charging times will get faster and faster. The new Tesla superchargers will supposedly do a full battery recharge in like 15 minutes. A few more years and I bet they'll have version 4.0 that will be even faster. I'm not worried about charing times for the 1 or 2 road trips I do a year, the time it takes to recharge will be as long as it'll take me to go tinkle and get something to eat. The farthest distance I usually drive is my sister's place in NY, a little over 100 miles.. Should be able to make it there and back on a full charge no problem, and I could always plug in at her place while I'm there for some extra juice.
1.They're too damn quiet. I know, it seems like a silly issue but, they are very hard to detect in parking lots and garages and have had one slip up on me a time or two. With less aware pedestrians and drivers I could see some real issues.
... ...
There is something in that. OTOH it's astonishing how many pedestrians who walk around with headphones in, looking at their phones, and wouldn't notice a clown car with a foghorn on it.
Whatever. It would be simple to equip EVs with a circuit to beam an alert sound externally when travelling at speeds under 30mph.
I would love for that sound to be Zoidberg's Wooop wooop woop.
Necros wrote: Ah, I see. But then, wouldn't the same be true for newer gas cars that have similar technologies? Like I was looking into the new Honda passport, that has honda's sensing tech standard. Seems like lots of other companies are starting to make that stuff standard too
The issue is Tesla is a company with scarce resouces stretched too thin so they're gak at having a meaningful logistics system. Parts will take months to get to you and until they arrive you're toast (that's also part of the reason why insurance quotes are so high, they need to account for very long loaner periods).
Service professionals are also substantially below what's needed to sustain the current fleet. For example Tesla has a grand total of 4 service technicians for whole Spain. 3 of them in Madrid and the other one drives around trying to do their best.
My neighbour has a model S that's been 3 months waiting for parts, he told me half Tesla owners are absolutely pissed at Tesla and their service and there's even talk about a group action against Tesla. Problem is, they started recently delivery of the cheaper model 3 (with worse build quality) but the servive headcount is still the same.
By all means consider any other electric car if your driving routine allows for it (I test drove a Nissan Leaf and a Kia eNiro and they were perfectly good machines, even though I settled for an ICE car) just not a Tesla.
Also, can another EV like a Chevy Bolt use a Tesla Supercharger station? Under the impression that only teslas can use them, which seems kinda bad for EVs in general, would be best if any EV can use any charging station.
Tesla uses a proprietary plug. At least in Europe they're forced by law to have the standard plug next to the Tesla-exclusive one.
Techpriestsupport wrote: One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.
So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.
Would be cool if they would allow it with some kind of adapter plug, just like how you need adapters for a tesla to use some other kinds of chargers. I get the whole idea of them wanting it to be like an exclusive perk, but I think it would be better for EVs in general and help more folks consider purchasing one over an ICE if they know there are more places to charge up.
They could still make it a benefit for Tesla owners, maybe have the price be cheaper.. or more likely keep the price the same for tesla owners, but charge others more, and then list it as "discounted supercharging" as a perk for new buyers.. because marketing.
Necros wrote: Would be cool if they would allow it with some kind of adapter plug, just like how you need adapters for a tesla to use some other kinds of chargers. I get the whole idea of them wanting it to be like an exclusive perk, but I think it would be better for EVs in general and help more folks consider purchasing one over an ICE if they know there are more places to charge up.
They could still make it a benefit for Tesla owners, maybe have the price be cheaper.. or more likely keep the price the same for tesla owners, but charge others more, and then list it as "discounted supercharging" as a perk for new buyers.. because marketing.
The problem right now is that none of the other companies appear to want to finance charging stations, they appear to want to stay out of that business and let gas stations handle it. At least in the US there could be regulatory issues with charging your customers one price for a product and other customers another, we have some monopoly laws that could kick in at that point. Tesla for their part has open sourced their patents for anyone to use and says they are happy to let others use their stations as long as they are willing to help finance the infrastructure and costs......nobody has taken then up on that deal. Availability is an issue, currently in busy areas you may have to wait for a Supercharger, if all of the sudden anyone can charge at them this would be a huge problem unless the network expands rapidly which Tesla is not in a financial position to build a network for everyone. There would be nothing worse than pulling into a full bank of chargers knowing that you may have to wait a half hour......before you even start charging. If Tesla had the cash it would be a really smart move to build this network as it would be a great revenue stream......but Tesla has already bitten off more than they can chew financially. If they were to try to take on another colossal project before showing consistent profit, their investors would be done.
I would never buy an EV that does not have an extensive and affordable charging network.
My neighbour has a model S that's been 3 months waiting for parts, he told me half Tesla owners are absolutely pissed at Tesla and their service and there's even talk about a group action against Tesla. Problem is, they started recently delivery of the cheaper model 3 (with worse build quality) but the servive headcount is still the same.
Tesla does have supply chain issues because of massive growth and their need to fund that growth to beat the competition to market. As far as Tesla owners being pissed off, its really a minority, because Tesla has addressed this issue in a way that satisfies most of their customers. They give you a loaner car until they can finish work on yours. Its not the perfect solution of course, but I think its a pretty good one.
What if Tesla offered franchises where a biz owner could buy one, kinda like buying a mcdonalds .. and they sell the cars (for the same price as online, no haggling) and do the service and get trained by the tesla pros from Mars .. Would that be a way around the dealership laws for those states that have them?
I mean thats what a dealership is. Sure there are private dealerships, but they are pretty rare, most dealerships are franchises sold by the company to the franchiser. Dealerships do not want to then compete against their own company. Thats the whole issue, especially now. If you could go to a franchised dealership and test drive the car......but then just buy it online, that would kill the franchises. This is why so many companies are after Teslas ability to sell directly to customers, and also why many new EVs are coming out as their own brand, so that they can be sold directly. For instance Volvo has franchises in the US and under those agreements are not allowed to sell Volvos directly to customers, they can however start and EV brand called Polestar and sell that directly to customers Any auto company that has Franchises is not allowed to legally sell directly to customers as it breaks the franchise agreement.
Techpriestsupport wrote: One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.
So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.
Kilkrazy wrote: Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.
Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.
KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I dont see then as anything but second cars.
There is no theory in that conspiracy theory. If you look at the history of US auto manufacturing there is a long list of their competition that they shut down using political means.
Kilkrazy wrote: Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.
Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.
KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I don't see then as anything but second cars.
There is no theory in that conspiracy theory. If you look at the history of US auto manufacturing there is a long list of their competition that they shut down using political means.
This is so true. The big 3 have killed competitors with economic and political clout rather than competing with them.
One was the Tucker, a car ahead of it;s time that had a lot of innovations. In fact there was even a major movie made about it decades after the fact.,
Simple electric car requires about 1000Ah. Usual batteries will die fast. LiFePo batteries of that A*h will cost ~9000 dollars. It's the price of normal car. A car, that can get 500km or even more with additional fuel. What about electric? 150km or so
But. Elcetric usable on bikes or mopeds. Plug anywhere, even in your room. You drive in the center of city, you don't need to go for gas station
Techpriestsupport wrote: One fact is that some stares have actively sabotaged tesla sales, and you can bet that big money from conventinal car companies and companies that sell gasoline are involved.
So possibly one reason tesla is struggling is a major car market in america, as in 6 states, , has been closed to them.
And Texas lawmakers have just proposed a law that will prohibit Tesla from directly servicing Tesla vehicles.
So much for some peoples professed belief in "duh free markit!"
Such a regulation actually prevents anybody from having a monopoly on the repairs of that vehicle, which is a good thing. It's similar to various laws people are thinking about passing to say Apple can no longer disallow their customers from repairing their own phones(or taking them to a 3rd party repair business). Its actually good for small repair businesses because it lets them have a bigger market share, or indeed the only market share in this case.
Now I don't think completely banning Tesla from servicing their own vehicles is exactly fair. But having the law say "You may not claim sole rights to repair and maintenance of your products" is a good thing.
This law is most definitely a specific "Screw Tesla" jab, but its not an anti-free market law in and of itself.
Freakazoitt wrote: Simple electric car requires about 1000Ah. Usual batteries will die fast. LiFePo batteries of that A*h will cost ~9000 dollars. It's the price of normal car. A car, that can get 500km or even more with additional fuel. What about electric? 150km or so
But. Elcetric usable on bikes or mopeds. Plug anywhere, even in your room. You drive in the center of city, you don't need to go for gas station
Electric bikes are increasingly popular in Japan and the Netherlands. I'm seeing more of them in the UK too. The main thing holding them back is cost, and the unfriendliness of UK roads for cyclists.
Freakazoitt wrote: Simple electric car requires about 1000Ah. Usual batteries will die fast. LiFePo batteries of that A*h will cost ~9000 dollars. It's the price of normal car. A car, that can get 500km or even more with additional fuel. What about electric? 150km or so
But. Elcetric usable on bikes or mopeds. Plug anywhere, even in your room. You drive in the center of city, you don't need to go for gas station
Electric bikes are increasingly popular in Japan and the Netherlands. I'm seeing more of them in the UK too. The main thing holding them back is cost, and the unfriendliness of UK roads for cyclists.
Whats unfriendly about your roads?
Whenever I see photos of british streets they look like they have a lot, and I mean a lot, of concessions towards cyclists. At least relative to the US.
Sad to say, the usual concession to cyclists in the UK are that the local council paints a white line down the edge of the road, with a silhoutte of a bike in it, and that's job done. You're expected to crunch through the debris, ironwork and increased camber in the gutter.
That may be friendlier than the US, but a lot of our roads are much narrower than yours, and our population density is higher.
It's a bit better in some places. We don't have the bike first urban culture of the Netehrelands, though.
Kilkrazy wrote: Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.
Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.
KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I dont see then as anything but second cars.
I have driven most electric cars in the market, Teslas included and I can't agree with you there.
As far as charging infrastructure, the good thing about everyone else but Tesla moving to a common standard is that you will have a wide choice of places to charge your car. There's something like 15 CCS chargers for each Supercharger in Europe (which, btw have been required by law to have CCS plugs so any car can charge at a supercharger station as well), Ionity network of fast chargers is already bigger than Tesla supercharger network in Europe.
Electrify America (VW-funded) is investing billions in CCS and ChaDeMo chargers in the US and with Tesla pinching pennies right now they will lose the network advantage soon.
Kilkrazy wrote: Sad to say, the usual concession to cyclists in the UK are that the local council paints a white line down the edge of the road, with a silhoutte of a bike in it, and that's job done. You're expected to crunch through the debris, ironwork and increased camber in the gutter.
Cycling infrastructure in the UK is poorly thought out and generally, as KK says, consists of a white line, a bicycle shape and that's it, another 20 meters of "cycling infrastructure" for the council to boast about, without any thought of it actually being useful, or even within Department for Transport guidelines.
Yes, riding in Oxford I travel the NCR 5 every day. It's the cycle equivalent of the M6 motorway.
There a place where in 50 yards you have to negotiate 6 tight turns of 90 to 120 degrees, while crossing a major road and two minor roads.
There's another place where bike parking bars have been put in the middle of the bike lane. They are miles away from any useful facilities, so there are never any bikes parked there.
There's another place where the cycle lane crosses a pedestrian precinct. All the cycle lane markings were removed during building work and haven't been replaced, so it's very hard for pedestrians to understand they are in the cycle lane.
Oxford is noted as a bike friendly city, partly because it's a car unfriendly city.
I used to do work for the university of penn police dept .. they had bike lanes on the sides of all of the streets, and the cops were always giving tickets to cars driving in the lanes like they weren't even there. It was almost like their main source of income.
Kilkrazy wrote: Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.
Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.
KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I dont see then as anything but second cars.
I have driven most electric cars in the market, Teslas included and I can't agree with you there.
As far as charging infrastructure, the good thing about everyone else but Tesla moving to a common standard is that you will have a wide choice of places to charge your car. There's something like 15 CCS chargers for each Supercharger in Europe (which, btw have been required by law to have CCS plugs so any car can charge at a supercharger station as well), Ionity network of fast chargers is already bigger than Tesla supercharger network in Europe.
Electrify America (VW-funded) is investing billions in CCS and ChaDeMo chargers in the US and with Tesla pinching pennies right now they will lose the network advantage soon.
Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.
Long and short: There is only a tiny amount of infrastructure to support it. Electricity is nearly everywhere, even if the superchargers to do a fast charge are not.
There is only a tiny amount of infrastructure to support it
What's the problem adding it to gas stations? I think, it only because hydrogen cars are not produced (almost).
I missed posts here. Question - why they constructiong hydrogen batteries istead of just burning it in engine as a fuel?
Electricity is nearly everywhere,
Yeah. Europe for example can convert to electric cars easily. But similarty, they can convert to hydrogen too.
But I can't imagine electric cars in my region. 300-500km trips with nothing but trees. And -50 C sometimes. Electric bike inside city is nice, tough (in summer). Many people who don't have garages, use cars only in summer. And many drive cars only inside the city. I think, it's not rational, especially if you drive alone and dont carry things.
Hydrogen tanks, and compressed hydrogen, are very expensive and dangerous. That would be another level of danger and safety procedures for a gas station to have, for something that very few people would use.
Aren't Hydrogen cars mostly EVs also though? I was watching a youtube video for a new Hyundai I think, and it had an electric motor and I think they were saying that it uses hydrogen to charge the batteries to run the motor, or something like that.
A hydrogen car can run the fuel in a fuel cell to generate electricity directly with almost no moving parts. The electricity is stored in a battery to run the car's electric motors. The exhaust is simply water. Several companies already have cars like this in limited production.
It takes a lot of energy to make batteries, so smaller batteries compared to EVs are a good thing over the life cycle of the vehicle.
Hydrogen has two disadvantages at the moment. One is that it's a relatively new technology, so it's got a way to go to rival ICE cars or EVs. The other is that there is very limited hydrogen refueeling infrastructure.
On the plus side, hydrogen can be produced anywhere you have water and electricity. It doesn't have to be pumped out of a well, transported thousands of miles and refined and all that sort of thing. If you've got an electricity grid and a water grid, you've got the basic infrastructure you need to plumb in a hydrogen production facility.
Another plus is that it's a lot quicker to refuel a hydrogen car than to charge an electric car.
In some ways hydrogen hybrid vehicles are the best of both worlds.
1) It is expensive to make. At the moment it is far worse for the environment than petrol. This could all be changed either by new, less energy intense ways of making hydrogen, or by getting fusion up and running.
2) It keeps floating away. It is a bugger to store and will leak through almost anything. Graphene seems to offer hope, but like fusion, it seems just out of reach at the moment.
Both of these are engineering problems that are waiting to be fixed. Once we can fix them, then hydrogen will take off. Until then it will not work.
Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.
Performance is something I don't expect of an electric car. Electric cars are supposed to be saving the planet, not hurl yourself fast, and in any case performance in many ways is a compromise wrt to reliability. I'm pretty sure Tesla dismal reliability comes from trying to push the performance/range envelope too hard.
Range yes, though I'm not sure Tesla has any advantage there. Battery size to range for, say, the Kona or Leaf compared to the M3 give pretty similar results.
Charging edge, if you're talking about the supercharger network that's true of the US. Certainly not here. And the traditional performance brands are clearly prioritising charging speeds over range (which is also a compromise, you take one at the expense of the other), the eTron, Taycan, etc. will charge faster than a Tesla but will trade that for smaller range all other things being equal.
Software and gimmicks. As said before, Tesla is incredibly buggy and glitchy. It really feels you're betatesting which I assume is ok with some people but I would definitely feel robbed if I spent 60K+ on a car which doesn't really work out of the can.
The most important thing for a daily driver is that it works. From what I've seen, Tesla isn't there yet.
Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.
Performance is something I don't expect of an electric car. Electric cars are supposed to be saving the planet, not hurl yourself fast, and in any case performance in many ways is a compromise wrt to reliability. I'm pretty sure Tesla dismal reliability comes from trying to push the performance/range envelope too hard.
Range yes, though I'm not sure Tesla has any advantage there. Battery size to range for, say, the Kona or Leaf compared to the M3 give pretty similar results.
Charging edge, if you're talking about the supercharger network that's true of the US. Certainly not here. And the traditional performance brands are clearly prioritising charging speeds over range (which is also a compromise, you take one at the expense of the other), the eTron, Taycan, etc. will charge faster than a Tesla but will trade that for smaller range all other things being equal.
Software and gimmicks. As said before, Tesla is incredibly buggy and glitchy. It really feels you're betatesting which I assume is ok with some people but I would definitely feel robbed if I spent 60K+ on a car which doesn't really work out of the can.
The most important thing for a daily driver is that it works. From what I've seen, Tesla isn't there yet.
Maybe to you electric cars should be econo boxes....but the masses don't want that. Sales figures show it. If you want to replace ICE cars you have to offer something better. Reliability issues with Teslas are so overblown its ridiculous. They are almost as overstated as their ability to catch fire....which is actually pretty rare compared to an ICE car. You may have certain things you are looking for, but the public wants cars that are better than their ICE cars. Not to mention other companies econoboxes cost about the same as a model 3. Why would I buy a Chevy volt or Nissan Leaf with worse performance and no charging network for the same price I can get a Tesla? These cars are not even in the same league.
As far as charging speeds...you are out of date, Teslas new V3 charger (that is currently up and running) will charge just as fast or faster than what Porshe says they will be putting in......when they get around to it.
Teslas reliability issues arent even reliability issues, for the most part they have been fit and finish issues, which have been pretty much resolved. We are talking misaligned panels and inconsistent panel gaps, not cars that are breaking down or leaving people on the side of the road. If Teslas dont work, how is it that the model 3 just set the record for reaching 1 billion miles in record time. More Tesla model 3s were sold last year than almost all other EVs combined GLOBALY.
Tesla have a got a lot of work to do regarding affordability before they are anything like a credible alternative, at least here in the UK anyway. The cheapest car available on the Tesla UK website right now is £71k.
filbert wrote: Tesla have a got a lot of work to do regarding affordability before they are anything like a credible alternative, at least here in the UK anyway. The cheapest car available on the Tesla UK website right now is £71k.
Ok, but what version is it? How, much is a liter of petrol over there now?
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Elbows wrote: Jesus dude, did you drive a BMW in a previous life?
filbert wrote: it's a Model S and a litre of petrol in the UK is about £1.30 or so.
Well, Yes. The model S is their top of the line car. The base model 3 is $35K, so pretty affordable especially considering you are paying 1.30 a litre. The first container ships hit China and Europe about 2 weeks ago....all pre orders. Not sure when the 3 will be available for general purchase in Europe, but its coming.
filbert wrote: If they aren't available, then they aren't affordable...
Supply and demand my friend, people want the good gak, if you had pre ordered one you might be driving it right now, until then you have to wait in line like everyone else.
Econo boxes are a good start for electric cars because a lot of people want a relatively small vehicle which is cheap to run for daily commuting and short trips in urban environments, and the current technology easily supports this type of car.
More varied types are coming. The Tesla is clearly the best saloon type at the moment, and Jaguar is leading the pack with its I-Pace SUV.
Kilkrazy wrote: Econo boxes are a good start for electric cars because a lot of people want a relatively small vehicle which is cheap to run for daily commuting and short trips in urban environments, and the current technology easily supports this type of car.
More varied types are coming. The Tesla is clearly the best saloon type at the moment, and Jaguar is leading the pack with its I-Pace SUV.
If you want a hybrid, you are spoiled for choice.
Maybe in Europe, in the US econobox EVS have struggled horribly. Again the model 3 has sold more units then almost all other EVs combined globally. It shows what people really want.
Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.
Vulcan wrote: Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.
I would agree with you to a point. The US is not Europe, we are a giant country with a great highway system and crappy public transport. Try being in a smart car on the freeway when an semi is doing 85 next to you...its a harrowing experience. The shift to everyone driving big stupid SUVs even if they are EVS makes no sense to me.
Vulcan wrote: Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.
I would agree with you to a point. The US is not Europe, we are a giant country with a great highway system and crappy public transport. Try being in a smart car on the freeway when an semi is doing 85 next to you...its a harrowing experience. The shift to everyone driving big stupid SUVs even if they are EVS makes no sense to me.
I'll grant you the point about the smart car, but my little Civic handles the slipstream from a semi just fine. You don't need a three-ton metal monster for that.
Vulcan wrote: Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.
My F350 diesel dual rear wheel long bed crew cab 4wd is a need not a want. I have horses (and other animals). They need to be trailered to go riding. I need to pick up large numbers of hay bales and get them home. With my flat trailer I can haul about 120 bales in one go. It also hauls a pallet of metal t-posts or a pallet of bags of quickcrete in the bed. Tows dozens of 6 inch by 8ft treated fence posts and several rolls of no-climb fence. And other stuff. I'm often on dirt or no roads on my property to drop off materials for a project or when getting to where we'll be riding.
It will be a while before an electric truck can replace what I use my truck for.
And I have an Audi Q7 (also diesel) as my 'go to work' vehicle when not on my bike. It hauls 10-12 50-pound bags of feed in the back so I don't use the less fuel economic truck just to get feed. It gets decent milage for my daily commute, but frankly is used for much more than that (such as picking up feed).
Judging what people 'need' vice 'want' with out knowing what they actually need is a bit silly.
Just depends on what ya need. It'll be a long while before EVs are going to replace big trucks. Although I think I read Ford has an EV F150 coming out next year. Will be interesting to see how that goes.
I wish EVs weren't so pricey, I bet they could make them more affordable if they wanted to, without making them suck. But even though they have a higher cost to buy I think with the amount of miles I drive daily, it will be a money saver in the long run. I think what I like best about Tesla is their supercharger network, but I'm just not sure the Model 3 is for me since I'm more of a SUV guy. Don't want to wait 2 years for the model Y. But I'll give it a test drive in a few weeks and see
Vulcan wrote: Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.
My F350 diesel dual rear wheel long bed crew cab 4wd is a need not a want. I have horses (and other animals). They need to be trailered to go riding. I need to pick up large numbers of hay bales and get them home. With my flat trailer I can haul about 120 bales in one go. It also hauls a pallet of metal t-posts or a pallet of bags of quickcrete in the bed. Tows dozens of 6 inch by 8ft treated fence posts and several rolls of no-climb fence. And other stuff. I'm often on dirt or no roads on my property to drop off materials for a project or when getting to where we'll be riding.
It will be a while before an electric truck can replace what I use my truck for.
And I have an Audi Q7 (also diesel) as my 'go to work' vehicle when not on my bike. It hauls 10-12 50-pound bags of feed in the back so I don't use the less fuel economic truck just to get feed. It gets decent milage for my daily commute, but frankly is used for much more than that (such as picking up feed).
Judging what people 'need' vice 'want' with out knowing what they actually need is a bit silly.
There are many people that need SUVs sure....the vast majority dont. Many people drive SUVs because their ego cant handle a minivan. The new Chrysler pacifica hybrid is awesome though.
Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.
Performance is something I don't expect of an electric car. Electric cars are supposed to be saving the planet, not hurl yourself fast, and in any case performance in many ways is a compromise wrt to reliability. I'm pretty sure Tesla dismal reliability comes from trying to push the performance/range envelope too hard.
Range yes, though I'm not sure Tesla has any advantage there. Battery size to range for, say, the Kona or Leaf compared to the M3 give pretty similar results.
Charging edge, if you're talking about the supercharger network that's true of the US. Certainly not here. And the traditional performance brands are clearly prioritising charging speeds over range (which is also a compromise, you take one at the expense of the other), the eTron, Taycan, etc. will charge faster than a Tesla but will trade that for smaller range all other things being equal.
Software and gimmicks. As said before, Tesla is incredibly buggy and glitchy. It really feels you're betatesting which I assume is ok with some people but I would definitely feel robbed if I spent 60K+ on a car which doesn't really work out of the can.
The most important thing for a daily driver is that it works. From what I've seen, Tesla isn't there yet.
Maybe to you electric cars should be econo boxes....but the masses don't want that. Sales figures show it. If you want to replace ICE cars you have to offer something better. Reliability issues with Teslas are so overblown its ridiculous.
Tell that to my neighbor. That model S has almost spent as much time in service than on the road, and we're talking drive units, not a bumper repaint.
And that's compounded by Tesla absolute lack of a service infrastructure. Again, 4 technicians for a 40 million country. The wait for a mobile service in Spain is measured in months, and if the car can't get to Madrid on its own you depend on your insurance to have it transported there, which means some insurance companies are raising their premiums or refusing to insure them altogether. Tesla used to be a small close-knit community but their WhatsApp groups are fuming right now.
52% of Tesla's in the UK have spent over 3 weeks in service last year. How much of that is reliability and how much is poor planning and infrastructure i won't go into that but the truth is that if you want is a car that runs, look elsewhere.
No other brand has that kind of issues, for whatever reason. It's not overblown by any industry metric.
Vulcan wrote: Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.
My F350 diesel dual rear wheel long bed crew cab 4wd is a need not a want. I have horses (and other animals). They need to be trailered to go riding. I need to pick up large numbers of hay bales and get them home. With my flat trailer I can haul about 120 bales in one go. It also hauls a pallet of metal t-posts or a pallet of bags of quickcrete in the bed. Tows dozens of 6 inch by 8ft treated fence posts and several rolls of no-climb fence. And other stuff. I'm often on dirt or no roads on my property to drop off materials for a project or when getting to where we'll be riding.
It will be a while before an electric truck can replace what I use my truck for.
And I have an Audi Q7 (also diesel) as my 'go to work' vehicle when not on my bike. It hauls 10-12 50-pound bags of feed in the back so I don't use the less fuel economic truck just to get feed. It gets decent milage for my daily commute, but frankly is used for much more than that (such as picking up feed).
Judging what people 'need' vice 'want' with out knowing what they actually need is a bit silly.
For you I'd say that truck is a 'need', because you USE IT as a truck.
I've seen too many similar trucks with their showroom shine driving back and forth during rush hour, with one occupant, going from Ladue to downtown Clayon in St. Louis County, still with the showroom shine. Clearly they are being used as commuter vehicles, not as cargo-carrying trucks like yours. They could use a sedan and get the same results for far less gas burned...
Vulcan wrote: Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.
My F350 diesel dual rear wheel long bed crew cab 4wd is a need not a want. I have horses (and other animals). They need to be trailered to go riding. I need to pick up large numbers of hay bales and get them home. With my flat trailer I can haul about 120 bales in one go. It also hauls a pallet of metal t-posts or a pallet of bags of quickcrete in the bed. Tows dozens of 6 inch by 8ft treated fence posts and several rolls of no-climb fence. And other stuff. I'm often on dirt or no roads on my property to drop off materials for a project or when getting to where we'll be riding.
It will be a while before an electric truck can replace what I use my truck for.
And I have an Audi Q7 (also diesel) as my 'go to work' vehicle when not on my bike. It hauls 10-12 50-pound bags of feed in the back so I don't use the less fuel economic truck just to get feed. It gets decent milage for my daily commute, but frankly is used for much more than that (such as picking up feed).
Judging what people 'need' vice 'want' with out knowing what they actually need is a bit silly.
There are many people that need SUVs sure....the vast majority dont. Many people drive SUVs because their ego cant handle a minivan. The new Chrysler pacifica hybrid is awesome though.
Clarify "SUV." A lot of SUVs now are based on car frames. My Wife's is only an inch longer than a Hyundai Elantra and no wider.
A higher seating position, lumpen styling and a few grand more on the price tag is the definition, I think. And more dirt tracks and fewer motorways in the ads.
and yet, 98% of jeep wranglers never leave the asphalt
These days SUV just means "something taller than a sedan". I refuse to use the word crossover, because it just sounds stupid. I'm old and stubborn like that.
Yep. 90% of off-road vehicles never leave pavement and are used as expensive daily drivers.
If you need the capability, by all means buy the capability you need. But why buy an eight-person off-road vehicle when you only use it to drive to work alone? Doesn't make sense.
Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.
Performance is something I don't expect of an electric car. Electric cars are supposed to be saving the planet, not hurl yourself fast, and in any case performance in many ways is a compromise wrt to reliability. I'm pretty sure Tesla dismal reliability comes from trying to push the performance/range envelope too hard.
Range yes, though I'm not sure Tesla has any advantage there. Battery size to range for, say, the Kona or Leaf compared to the M3 give pretty similar results.
Charging edge, if you're talking about the supercharger network that's true of the US. Certainly not here. And the traditional performance brands are clearly prioritising charging speeds over range (which is also a compromise, you take one at the expense of the other), the eTron, Taycan, etc. will charge faster than a Tesla but will trade that for smaller range all other things being equal.
Software and gimmicks. As said before, Tesla is incredibly buggy and glitchy. It really feels you're betatesting which I assume is ok with some people but I would definitely feel robbed if I spent 60K+ on a car which doesn't really work out of the can.
The most important thing for a daily driver is that it works. From what I've seen, Tesla isn't there yet.
Maybe to you electric cars should be econo boxes....but the masses don't want that. Sales figures show it. If you want to replace ICE cars you have to offer something better. Reliability issues with Teslas are so overblown its ridiculous.
Tell that to my neighbor. That model S has almost spent as much time in service than on the road, and we're talking drive units, not a bumper repaint.
And that's compounded by Tesla absolute lack of a service infrastructure. Again, 4 technicians for a 40 million country. The wait for a mobile service in Spain is measured in months, and if the car can't get to Madrid on its own you depend on your insurance to have it transported there, which means some insurance companies are raising their premiums or refusing to insure them altogether. Tesla used to be a small close-knit community but their WhatsApp groups are fuming right now.
52% of Tesla's in the UK have spent over 3 weeks in service last year. How much of that is reliability and how much is poor planning and infrastructure i won't go into that but the truth is that if you want is a car that runs, look elsewhere.
No other brand has that kind of issues, for whatever reason. It's not overblown by any industry metric.
Tesla model 3 owners broke 3 billion miles in record time, you cant do that with shity cars. Does your neighbors car have problems....maybe, do all manufactures make a lemon or two, absolutely...it happens.
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Necros wrote: and yet, 98% of jeep wranglers never leave the asphalt
These days SUV just means "something taller than a sedan". I refuse to use the word crossover, because it just sounds stupid. I'm old and stubborn like that.
Again Ill say most SUV drivers are just afraid of driving minivans. Sure some people use them for work, and some people go mudding. But many just buy them because they feel safer in a taller car with extra armor. These people are usually bad drivers in the first place, compounded with the fact that the drive quality, tippy nature, extra size and blind spots actually make them much more dangerous vehicles. Most people should be driving sedans.....but they cant see over everyone elses hummers, so they buy hummers and that is why SUVs have taken over our roads here in the US.
And please if you are going to drive a car that is too big for you, at least learn how to park it, so many times I see these things taking up more than one parking spot.
Testify Andrew1975! I’m not a fan of SUVs either. Especially when they’re being driven by people who probably shouldn’t be driving anything bigger than a VW Up.
AndrewGPaul wrote: A higher seating position, lumpen styling and a few grand more on the price tag is the definition, I think. And more dirt tracks and fewer motorways in the ads.
Actually no. Many of the very popular models (Rogue, HRV) are the same price as their slightly shorter brethren. The only real difference is that the cabin is slightly taller. They are smaller than the station wagons of old.
Again Ill say most SUV drivers are just afraid of driving minivans.
Could be. We had a minivan. As the wife would always say, we could fit a 6 ft sheet of plywood in it or a full sized marumba. But with the kids gone there was no need to keep such a large vehicle*, and they are about $15K more expensive.
Tesla model 3 owners broke 3 billion miles in record time, you cant do that with shity cars. Does your neighbors car have problems....maybe, do all manufactures make a lemon or two, absolutely...it happens.
It's not one lemon or two:
Reliability for hybrids and electric cars aged one to four
Rank Make and model Score
1 Nissan Leaf (2011-2017) 99.7%
2 Toyota Yaris Hybrid (2011-present) 98.2%
3 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (2014-present) 97.7%
4 Lexus IS (2013-present) 97.6%
5 Toyota Auris Hybrid (2013-present) 96.7%
6 Lexus NX (2009-2017) 96.6%
7 Toyota Prius (2016-present) 94.0%
8 Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid, PHEV and EV (2016-present) 93.8%
9 BMW i3 (2013-present) 91.0%
10 Renault Zoe (2013-present) 83.0%
11 Tesla Model S (2013-present ) 50.9%
It's half the cars spending at least 3 weeks in service (UK data). One or two lemons is what I'd call Leaf or even Hyundai or BMW. Tesla is in a league of its own.
How much of that is actual reliability and how much is just poor service and parts logistics? I can't tell but it is a big thing.
And I can tell you things have gotten way worse with the model 3, where service already stretched too thin now has to care for many more cars.
Tesla model 3 owners broke 3 billion miles in record time, you cant do that with shity cars. Does your neighbors car have problems....maybe, do all manufactures make a lemon or two, absolutely...it happens.
It's not one lemon or two:
Reliability for hybrids and electric cars aged one to four
Rank Make and model Score
1 Nissan Leaf (2011-2017) 99.7%
2 Toyota Yaris Hybrid (2011-present) 98.2%
3 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (2014-present) 97.7%
4 Lexus IS (2013-present) 97.6%
5 Toyota Auris Hybrid (2013-present) 96.7%
6 Lexus NX (2009-2017) 96.6%
7 Toyota Prius (2016-present) 94.0%
8 Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid, PHEV and EV (2016-present) 93.8%
9 BMW i3 (2013-present) 91.0%
10 Renault Zoe (2013-present) 83.0%
11 Tesla Model S (2013-present ) 50.9%
It's half the cars spending at least 3 weeks in service (UK data). One or two lemons is what I'd call Leaf or even Hyundai or BMW. Tesla is in a league of its own.
How much of that is actual reliability and how much is just poor service and parts logistics? I can't tell but it is a big thing.
And I can tell you things have gotten way worse with the model 3, where service already stretched too thin now has to care for many more cars.
Firstly, Nercos is askiing specifically about the model 3, the model S was designed when Tesla had very little build experience and it shows, the doors rattle, but again for the most part these are still fit and finish issues. I also like how you never site where your stats are coming from.
Like I said, and most of the reports show, Most of these were fit and finish issues especially with the model 3. Most of the cars still run and work properly. Tesla has grown so fast that is does lack infrastructure to do the repair in a timely manner. Having odd panel gaps is an issue for sure, but its not really a reliability issue. Does it take tesla a long time to remove a panel and place it properly....YES, they are stretched a bit thin. Replacement parts are also hard to come by as they are dedicating production to making cars right now.......not so much in making spare parts. The cars still get you from point a to b, this is not engine failure or being stuck on the side of the road. If you bother reading any of these lists they will tell you the other cars on these lists are actually unriliable....as in won't run, or WILL leave you stranded, the Tesla issues are minor. This is also reflected in the satisfaction surveys as Teslas come out on the list as most satisfied owners.......thats HUGE!
Ive had my car for awhile and I'm still waiting for my badging and spoiler......not really a big deal to me. The cars themselves are reliable. As consumer reports said the complaints that they received were fit and finish issues, not cars malfunctioning.
To show you how respected Teslas are Der Speigel wrote an article about them, which is a major endorsement. Der Speigel has historically been a major Tesla basher, and while it does have criticisms this well respected German publication clearly says thier own automakers should feel put on notice. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-rave-reviews-der-spiegel/
Necros......If you end up buying one, i have a code that will get you 1000 miles of free supercharging, ill happily give you my code.
I read about those referals, was going to get one from a random youtuber if I buy one but sure PM me your code and I'll use it. But if you win a roadster because of me then you have to share it.
I probably won't be ready to buy till this summer, maybe june or july. I read that at the end of a quarter they usually have good deals on buying slightly used test drive cars so I might look into that. Just worried though that I won't like the ride height or lack there of, so if that's the case I may end up waiting for the model Y after all. But 2 years is a long time to wait, who knows what other cool new EVs might come out by then. Pretty much decided my next car will be EV though. I saw somewhere VW is bringing back their old hippy van, but as an EV. Looked pretty cool.
Necros wrote: I read about those referals, was going to get one from a random youtuber if I buy one but sure PM me your code and I'll use it. But if you win a roadster because of me then you have to share it.
I probably won't be ready to buy till this summer, maybe june or july. I read that at the end of a quarter they usually have good deals on buying slightly used test drive cars so I might look into that. Just worried though that I won't like the ride height or lack there of, so if that's the case I may end up waiting for the model Y after all. But 2 years is a long time to wait, who knows what other cool new EVs might come out by then. Pretty much decided my next car will be EV though. I saw somewhere VW is bringing back their old hippy van, but as an EV. Looked pretty cool.
I would take one for a test drive for sure. If you lived anywhere near me I'd totally take for a spin. Yeah, so ask for cars with adjustments. Mine was a floor model that had 2800 miles on it and they took off $6500. How much longer they will do that I don't know. Demand for their cars is pretty high, plus right now you get $3750 tax rebate from the government and I think that will expire in June.
Firstly, Nercos is askiing specifically about the model 3, the model S was designed when Tesla had very little build experience and it shows, the doors rattle, but again for the most part these are still fit and finish issues. I also like how you never site where your stats are coming from.
It is the model 3 that's clogging a service infrastructure that could barely support smaller numbers of model S and X. It's too early for M3 to show in reliability lists, but the anecdotal data doesn't look good.
Like I said, and most of the reports show, Most of these were fit and finish issues especially with the model 3. Most of the cars still run and work properly. Tesla has grown so fast that is does lack infrastructure to do the repair in a timely manner. Having odd panel gaps is an issue for sure, but its not really a reliability issue. Does it take tesla a long time to remove a panel and place it properly....YES, they are stretched a bit thin. Replacement parts are also hard to come by as they are dedicating production to making cars right now.......not so much in making spare parts. The cars still get you from point a to b, this is not engine failure or being stuck on the side of the road.
Fit and finish might seem like non-issues to you (though people who are used to paying 50-60K on a car usually do differ) but the underlying problem is it means that if you have a crash, even if it's minor it's going to stay months off the road waiting for parts. And relatively minor damage will total your car and hit you with severe depreciation.
But besides that, there are definitely running gear and other key component failures, too. Motor replacements, battery pack replacements, suspension links breaking, charging ports not working, car rebooting while driving.... the fb and whatsapp for tesla owner groups tone is now majority negative.
If you're lucky enough to get a good one, Teslas are great cars as long as you can squeeze the electric car routines in your daily life. If you get a lemon (and all evidence points at there being many more lemons than average) you'll be left hung to dry, with contradicting answers on if/when your problem can be fixed... if you get a reply at all.
I think I read you have till the end of June for the $3750 tax credit, after that it's cut in half till the end of the year, then it's gone. The credit for PA is $1750, but not sure if/when that ends. But I like the idea of getting $5500 back. Right now I'm would probably end up going with the standard range +, I'd like to get long range but I don't know if I could afford that.
I think other EVs have the full $7500 credit but Teslas have been selling good enough that the government is cutting back on them. So that's something to consider. I was planning to check out the chevy bolt, but I saw one driving by the other day and it looked so tiny, I don't think I'd like it. Something like a buick encore is the smallest I think I could live with. VW has some cool options coming but I think they're a couple years away.
While these are studies done on Teslas, it's likely that these kind of faults exist in most or perhaps all current generation vehicles with any significant amount of self-driving ability and on-board computing.
Yeah I worry about the high tech stuff a little. Definitely not only a Tesla thing though. I have a 2015 jeep renegade, after I bought it, I came across an article about some hackers were able to get into the car through a paired cell phone and basically just shut the engine down in the middle of a highway. It was a controlled test with no danger at the time, but still.
Teslas are always connected to the internet for over the air updates, so even if you don't have a phone, it could happen. I guess Chevy's are too since they are always talking about how they have wifi. Just a matter of time till Skynet takes over.
Necros wrote: Yeah I worry about the high tech stuff a little. Definitely not only a Tesla thing though. I have a 2015 jeep renegade, after I bought it, I came across an article about some hackers were able to get into the car through a paired cell phone and basically just shut the engine down in the middle of a highway. It was a controlled test with no danger at the time, but still.
Teslas are always connected to the internet for over the air updates, so even if you don't have a phone, it could happen. I guess Chevy's are too since they are always talking about how they have wifi. Just a matter of time till Skynet takes over.
Its a worry, but Tesla actually has contests to find vulnerabilities in its products. They actually just gave a Model 3 away to someone who was able to hack it. They appear to be pretty on top of it. I think a total of 4 Teslas have been stolen and not recovered, thats a pretty good track record.
Fit and finish might seem like non-issues to you (though people who are used to paying 50-60K on a car usually do differ) but the underlying problem is it means that if you have a crash, even if it's minor it's going to stay months off the road waiting for parts. And relatively minor damage will total your car and hit you with severe depreciation.
But besides that, there are definitely running gear and other key component failures, too. Motor replacements, battery pack replacements, suspension links breaking, charging ports not working, car rebooting while driving.... the fb and whatsapp for tesla owner groups tone is now majority negative.
If you're lucky enough to get a good one, Teslas are great cars as long as you can squeeze the electric car routines in your daily life. If you get a lemon (and all evidence points at there being many more lemons than average) you'll be left hung to dry, with contradicting answers on if/when your problem can be fixed... if you get a reply at all.
Again you are overstating the case. Nobody makes perfect cars, Tesla currently has the highest customer satisfaction rating according to consumer reports, so if they were as bad as you keep trying to make them, customers wouldn't be so satisfied. Im a member of many of the Tesla community groups, their tone is far from negative. Yeah, there are some people who are critical...many don't even understand their cars. I was just reading about a guy complaining that his summon only moved his car ten feet he felt cheated and underwhelmed.......well yeah, thats what summon does, unless you have advanced summon.....which he didn't. Most of the crying you see on the forums is people that haven't bothered to even read their manual or just expected too much from their car. "my regenerative braking is too aggressive and I'm afraid its going to eat my brakes" yeah, you can adjust the regenerative braking and regenerative braking doesn't use the brakes. The amount of people crying about their badgeing is rediculous. No, i havent gotten my carbon fiber spoiler of my Dual Motor Performance badge yet and I've had my car for awhile. Would it be nice to have them...sure, but there is no need to pitch a fit about it. It doesn't affect my driving experience and it will come eventually. Are people getting their car delivered with them now, while I still wait. YEP! To some people thats a big deal, not to me.
I always think about how I'm gonna bling out my new car, then 4 years later I'm trading it in the same way I bought it, just with a lot more crumbs in the carpet. In fact, probably more crumbs than carpet at that point..
Kilkrazy wrote: The purpose of a sports car isn't to be efficient.
The purpose is to cool and elegant
Wire spoke wheels are inherently cooler and more elegant.
Inefficient for the weight. The purpose of the 427 was to beat Ferraris on the track. Being street legal was a minor secondary concern. We'll say its personal preference.
For the Brits, another perfect automobile, with spoked wheels!
Again you are overstating the case. Nobody makes perfect cars,
Ah younglings, they know not what they say. Behold the 427 Shelby Cobra!
It's great for bombing around having fun. Some possibilities for picking up easily-impressed girls... or boys, if that's your thing.
Not the most fuel-efficient car for idling in heavy traffic during rush hour, though. Two seats, limits it's use for families. No cargo capacity worth speaking of; not good for getting groceries or hauling furniture. And the off-road capability is laughable; not a replacement for a good 4x4.
It's exceptional at what it does, yes. But it doesn't do so much it can hardly be considered 'perfect'.
Again you are overstating the case. Nobody makes perfect cars,
Ah younglings, they know not what they say. Behold the 427 Shelby Cobra!
It's great for bombing around having fun. Some possibilities for picking up easily-impressed girls... or boys, if that's your thing.
Not the most fuel-efficient car for idling in heavy traffic during rush hour, though. Two seats, limits it's use for families. No cargo capacity worth speaking of; not good for getting groceries or hauling furniture. And the off-road capability is laughable; not a replacement for a good 4x4.
It's exceptional at what it does, yes. But it doesn't do so much it can hardly be considered 'perfect'.
Oh contraire. As you stated, its perfect for what it does. Its the perfect sports car. Like the humble but terrifying wiener dog, its the perfect predator.
Again you are overstating the case. Nobody makes perfect cars,
Ah younglings, they know not what they say. Behold the 427 Shelby Cobra!
It's great for bombing around having fun. Some possibilities for picking up easily-impressed girls... or boys, if that's your thing.
Not the most fuel-efficient car for idling in heavy traffic during rush hour, though. Two seats, limits it's use for families. No cargo capacity worth speaking of; not good for getting groceries or hauling furniture. And the off-road capability is laughable; not a replacement for a good 4x4.
It's exceptional at what it does, yes. But it doesn't do so much it can hardly be considered 'perfect'.
Oh contraire. As you stated, its perfect for what it does. Its the perfect sports car. Like the humble but terrifying wiener dog, its the perfect predator.
MEH, I bet my Tesla could kick the snot out of it. A Stock 427 cobra will go 0-60 in about 5 (4.5 brand new, but ill take a half second off for wear and tear) seconds, has horrible brakes. My Tesla will go 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, corners like a dream and 0 maintenance.....I do as a car guy of course admire the classics. As for that British roadster, anyone who dreams of British sports cars never had to attempt to maintain them. Actually both of those cars we maintenance hell, suffering major defects and issues which caused them to catch on fire or their throttles getting stuck leading to one of them being launched into the pacific ocean.
Oh by the way sales numbers are in. Tesla is outselling Porsche.....in Germany!
As for fords there is only one im interested in. Has to be in the old Gulf livery.
You get 1000 miles of free supercharging if someone buys a tesla with your referral code, and that person gets 1000 miles also.
In their older referral system, one fella on youtube won 2 roadsters coming in at like $500k in value. I think that's why they changed it to just be for supercharging
Necros wrote: You get 1000 miles of free supercharging if someone buys a tesla with your referral code, and that person gets 1000 miles also.
In their older referral system, one fella on youtube won 2 roadsters coming in at like $500k in value. I think that's why they changed it to just be for supercharging
I apparently need to start using the sarcasm blue text more often...
Again you are overstating the case. Nobody makes perfect cars,
Ah younglings, they know not what they say. Behold the 427 Shelby Cobra!
It's great for bombing around having fun. Some possibilities for picking up easily-impressed girls... or boys, if that's your thing.
Not the most fuel-efficient car for idling in heavy traffic during rush hour, though. Two seats, limits it's use for families. No cargo capacity worth speaking of; not good for getting groceries or hauling furniture. And the off-road capability is laughable; not a replacement for a good 4x4.
It's exceptional at what it does, yes. But it doesn't do so much it can hardly be considered 'perfect'.
Oh contraire. As you stated, its perfect for what it does. Its the perfect sports car. Like the humble but terrifying wiener dog, its the perfect predator.
Oh, yes, I agree, it's a perfect SPORTS car. It's perfect for bombing around and having fun.
Go back to the initial post and you'll notice that no mention is made of SPORTS cars. Just cars overall.
And cars overall have a much broader function than just bombing around and having fun.
Again you are overstating the case. Nobody makes perfect cars, Tesla currently has the highest customer satisfaction rating according to consumer reports, so if they were as bad as you keep trying to make them, customers wouldn't be so satisfied .
That doesn't necessarily follow. The cool factor outweighs many practicalities, at least short term.
Long term, problems get worse. It's one thing to have two cracked glass roofs replaced under warranty, but once you have to reach for the wallet it's another thing entirely.
Again you are overstating the case. Nobody makes perfect cars, Tesla currently has the highest customer satisfaction rating according to consumer reports, so if they were as bad as you keep trying to make them, customers wouldn't be so satisfied .
That doesn't necessarily follow. The cool factor outweighs many practicalities, at least short term.
Long term, problems get worse. It's one thing to have two cracked glass roofs replaced under warranty, but once you have to reach for the wallet it's another thing entirely.
Not necessarily, but more than likely, most Tesla owners including the older modles are very happy with their cars. You are supposing that there will be massive long term issues. There really have been very few meaningful issues with Teslas...especially the newer ones.....I just hit enough miles to need an oil change in a regular car......Oh wait, I don't need to do that anymore, in fact my car has 0 maintenance schedule. I do need to still rotate the tires I guess.
To each their own, if you want something more expensive, slower, with much less range and a very limited charging network I guess the I-pace is the way to go.
We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.
Elbows wrote: We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.
THIS, except I was apparently coming off as a Debbie Downer in the way I was beating around the bush to state it.
Future War Cultist wrote: If Jaguar goes full electric, might it be saved? And might they be able to get their saloons back on track?
They’re my favourite car marque (Alfa Romeo is a close second) and I want them to make it.
Jaguar has three major problems which hav hit them all at the same time in the last couple of years:
1. China market collapse. It was something like 25% of their sales.
2. Diesel market collapse. Most of their cars run on highly engineered turbo-diesel engines which suddently are as popular as coal-powered steam.
3. Saloon market collapse. SUVs now account for I think 29% of European sales, and Jaguar have only one SUV. At least it's fully electric.
I wouldn't ever write off a classic marque like Jaguar, and they've had very bad luck rather than bad judgement, so I hope they survive.
It's ironic that their current advertising runs on the slogan of "I don't do popular choices."
Elbows wrote: We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.
I don't see it that way, I see it as people that don't know what they are talking about. There is a lot of misinformation about Evs out there. Most of your arguments come from not knowing the facts of Teslas or EVs iin general. Yeah, I'm hyped about it, Im a car guy and this is without a doubt the best car I've ever owned. It performs greatm has great range, i don't have to stop at the gas station anymore, and I don't even have to do regular maintenance. Its amazing to me. I've put thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of hours into repairing cars not to mention the money. EVs are a game changer and I think Tesla makes the best ones, best range, best performance.
I think Tesla is the best right now. I mean for me I pretty much have 3 whole options for EVs in my price range, a Tesla Model 3, the Nissan Leaf or the Chevy Bolt.. not too thrilled with the last 2.
But in the next couple of years there is going to be a lot more competition. Volvo I think has an all new EV brand launching soon, and VW looks to be making a big EV push too. I love the look of their updated EV hippy van, but that won't be out till like '22.
Also wondering if the tesla chargers might become the next betamax. They're the best right now have have the infrastructure, and there's little competition, but what about in a few years? like, aren't all other car brands using the same kind of standard plug as Europe, so Teslas would be the only ones with a proprietary charger? What if they make a law that says all cars need to use that same plug like in Europe? That would be a pretty costly upgrade I imagine. Although, I guess there are adapters that work for that sort of thing, still though, something I was thinking about. Maybe Elon can find the standard plug lobbyists and launch them all into the sun before they can convince congress to do anything.
Future War Cultist wrote: If Jaguar goes full electric, might it be saved? And might they be able to get their saloons back on track?
They’re my favourite car marque (Alfa Romeo is a close second) and I want them to make it.
Jaguar has three major problems which hav hit them all at the same time in the last couple of years:
1. China market collapse. It was something like 25% of their sales.
2. Diesel market collapse. Most of their cars run on highly engineered turbo-diesel engines which suddently are as popular as coal-powered steam.
3. Saloon market collapse. SUVs now account for I think 29% of European sales, and Jaguar have only one SUV. At least it's fully electric.
I wouldn't ever write off a classic marque like Jaguar, and they've had very bad luck rather than bad judgement, so I hope they survive.
It's ironic that their current advertising runs on the slogan of "I don't do popular choices."
Agreed. If I can address these points individually:
1: Jaguar tried to blame this on a downturn in China, but the truth is, it was their reliability that let them down. Other marques of a similar standing actually increased their sells during the same period. They might be able to get away with this in countries where they’ve been established for years but China is a new market and doesn’t tolerate unreliable cars. Plus I hear that their dealer network needs work.
2: Yeah, they really backed the wrong horse here. I don’t blame them of course, but regardless, they got into a diesel stained hole.
3: I thought they had 3 (E-Pace, F-Pace and now the I-Pace) but regardless, the decline in saloon sales is hurting them. And when you’re especially known for your saloons...that’s bad news. The XJ apparently sells ok but it’s a niche vehicle (big limo). The XE and XF are sadly underperforming. I heard that it’s because of the interiors and styling in addition to the unreliability. Luckily however, I think this is all perfectly fixable.
I do would be gutted to see them dropped, and I do worry a lot about them. But, they’ve got the I-Pace, new saloons on the way and the F-Type is well regarded so I’m sure there’s hope.
If only they’d gone hybrid. Also, do they still suffer from that problem of being seen as ‘an old farts’ car? Because they shouldn’t; once upon a time jags were the most high tec cars you could buy.
FYI, I hate SUVs. They’re a con...they hardly do anything that a nice estate can’t whilst being worse to drive and more expensive. The I-Pace is an exception though. I just think it’s that good!
Elbows wrote: We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.
I don't see it that way, I see it as people that don't know what they are talking about. There is a lot of misinformation about Evs out there. Most of your arguments come from not knowing the facts of Teslas or EVs iin general. Yeah, I'm hyped about it, Im a car guy and this is without a doubt the best car I've ever owned. It performs greatm has great range, i don't have to stop at the gas station anymore, and I don't even have to do regular maintenance. Its amazing to me. I've put thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of hours into repairing cars not to mention the money. EVs are a game changer and I think Tesla makes the best ones, best range, best performance.
See this is a prime example of your fanboi'ing. Its more OTT and cringy than an Ultrasmurf who just got his Ultramar Gone Wild magazine with Gulliman as the centerfold.
Elbows wrote: We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.
I don't see it that way, I see it as people that don't know what they are talking about. There is a lot of misinformation about Evs out there. Most of your arguments come from not knowing the facts of Teslas or EVs iin general. Yeah, I'm hyped about it, Im a car guy and this is without a doubt the best car I've ever owned. It performs greatm has great range, i don't have to stop at the gas station anymore, and I don't even have to do regular maintenance. Its amazing to me. I've put thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of hours into repairing cars not to mention the money. EVs are a game changer and I think Tesla makes the best ones, best range, best performance.
See this is a prime example of your fanboi'ing. Its more OTT and cringy than an Ultrasmurf who just got his Ultramar Gone Wild magazine with Gulliman as the centerfold.
Hey, make a legitimate argument and we can have a discussion! If not you are just blowing smoke.
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Necros wrote: I think Tesla is the best right now. I mean for me I pretty much have 3 whole options for EVs in my price range, a Tesla Model 3, the Nissan Leaf or the Chevy Bolt.. not too thrilled with the last 2.
But in the next couple of years there is going to be a lot more competition. Volvo I think has an all new EV brand launching soon, and VW looks to be making a big EV push too. I love the look of their updated EV hippy van, but that won't be out till like '22.
Also wondering if the tesla chargers might become the next betamax. They're the best right now have have the infrastructure, and there's little competition, but what about in a few years? like, aren't all other car brands using the same kind of standard plug as Europe, so Teslas would be the only ones with a proprietary charger? What if they make a law that says all cars need to use that same plug like in Europe? That would be a pretty costly upgrade I imagine. Although, I guess there are adapters that work for that sort of thing, still though, something I was thinking about. Maybe Elon can find the standard plug lobbyists and launch them all into the sun before they can convince congress to do anything.
Elon has offered to let any company use the supercharger network, they just have to pitch in, nobody has taken him up on the offer. Right now Tesla has the lead, others say that they can do better, but they have been saying that for years. There is always a tesls killer on the horizon...but if you actually compare them the numbers always go in Teslas favor. The new Porshe Tycan that is the Tesla killer is slower than my car, much slower than a model S and doesnt have the of either, same with the Volvo.....and again they will have very limited charging networks.
I think ni Europe there is a mandate that all chargers have to be able to charge all cars. There is a fight in NYC where they are not letting tesla install any more chargers unless they are compatible with other vehicles. I dont really think its fair to make Tesla install the infrastructure for much larger corporations, but it could also be a money maker for Tesla which does need the additional streams of income.
By the way Teslas come with an adapter to use the standard chargers, it wont charge as fast as a supercharger though, but it will charge as fast as any other car at that charger.
Elbows wrote: We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.
I don't see it that way, I see it as people that don't know what they are talking about. There is a lot of misinformation about Evs out there. Most of your arguments come from not knowing the facts of Teslas or EVs iin general. Yeah, I'm hyped about it, Im a car guy and this is without a doubt the best car I've ever owned. It performs greatm has great range, i don't have to stop at the gas station anymore, and I don't even have to do regular maintenance. Its amazing to me. I've put thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of hours into repairing cars not to mention the money. EVs are a game changer and I think Tesla makes the best ones, best range, best performance.
See this is a prime example of your fanboi'ing. Its more OTT and cringy than an Ultrasmurf who just got his Ultramar Gone Wild magazine with Gulliman as the centerfold.
Hey, make a legitimate argument and we can have a discussion! If not you are just blowing smoke.
They've already been made in the thread. But I will remind you of them.
1) Tesla has unacceptable repair wait times. Yet they just keep pushing out new models instead of trying to support their existing ones properly.
2) EVs have little to no infrastructure in existence at the moment. This makes them highly unattractive to anybody who actually wants to drive anything other than a specific commute that has charging station access.
3) Teslas, and good EVs that compare to real vehicles in performance, are very expensive. They also won't hold their value long term because of system degradation and the fact that better EVs will come out in the near future, which will absolutely kill their value when you want to upgrade. No car dealer is going to give a good trade in value for a Model S in 10 years because by that time you'll have many new models of electric vehicle that will absolutely kick the snot out of your precious model S. And anybody who is shopping for a used vehicle isn't going to want to bother with an electric vehicle if they aren't already set up to own one.
4) Any EV requires you to set up a charging station at your house. That is a major electrical project and comes with the expenses and hazards that something like that involves.
5) Musk is a douce who will never see a red cent of my money.
So yeah. You really are coming across as a bad fanboi. We get it. You got your new shiny and are happy with it, thats good for you. But don't try to brow beat everybody with its alleged superiority when there are many many objective flaws with the product that a consumer would be wise to avoid.
I'd be all for it if they start mass producing ones that you can just plug into the mains. dont have to worry about fuel..just whack it on your leccy bill. easy
Ok, what about electric cars teaming up with solar power makers to offer a discount on a home solar rig to recharge them? Now I know people who use their cars all day might now be able to recharge them at night but the solar panels could recharge a battery during the day you plug your car into at night.
I think Tesla does that.. they don't just make cars they sell solar panels and special battery packs for houses. They also have some special kind of solar shingles, so you use them for your roof instead of normal shingles and it acts as solar panels but I think it doesn't draw as much power as a normal panel would. Nice for if you're made of money and you want it to blend in.
Can we please not ruin this thread and get a mod locking it? It's already veered that way with some flames and personal attacks. This isn't a bad thread idea and should be kept going.
On topic, why is it just about cars? Why not electric scooters for people who don't need a full car most of the time?
Come to think of it why do so many people feel a need to own a car? How about an electric car leasing or subscription service? Subscribe and have a small electric car delivered to you and use it as long as you subscribe to the services. Insurance, maintanence, etc are all covered by your subscription fee. A big company could likely get a discount on insurance for alot of subscribers so it'd cost less than an individual policy, plus when your car need service you just trade it for another one.
Techpriestsupport wrote: Can we please not ruin this thread and get a mod locking it? It's already veered that way with some flames and personal attacks. This isn't a bad thread idea and should be kept going.
On topic, why is it just about cars? Why not electric scooters for people who don't need a full car most of the time?
Come to think of it why do so many people feel a need to own a car? How about an electric car leasing or subscription service? Subscribe and have a small electric car delivered to you and use it as long as you subscribe to the services. Insurance, maintanence, etc are all covered by your subscription fee. A big company could likely get a discount on insurance for alot of subscribers so it'd cost less than an individual policy, plus when your car need service you just trade it for another one.
Techpriestsupport wrote: Can we please not ruin this thread and get a mod locking it? It's already veered that way with some flames and personal attacks. This isn't a bad thread idea and should be kept going.
On topic, why is it just about cars? Why not electric scooters for people who don't need a full car most of the time?
Come to think of it why do so many people feel a need to own a car? How about an electric car leasing or subscription service? Subscribe and have a small electric car delivered to you and use it as long as you subscribe to the services. Insurance, maintanence, etc are all covered by your subscription fee. A big company could likely get a discount on insurance for alot of subscribers so it'd cost less than an individual policy, plus when your car need service you just trade it for another one.
what about those who need larger cars?
Fair question. They could subscribe for a larger car at a slightly higher rate. Obviously there could be subscription levels and plans. likewise ones driver history would play a part in your rates.
Another possibility for electric cars could be this:
Because owning a car in most of the US is mandatory if you want to get anywhere. When your job, grocery store, etc, are all spread out across miles in all directions you either have a car or spend immense amounts of time on a bus (if you can get there at all, which is often a very optimistic assumption). Maybe if you live and work downtown in a major city you can get away with not having a car, but for most of us it's not a choice.
How about an electric car leasing or subscription service? Subscribe and have a small electric car delivered to you and use it as long as you subscribe to the services. Insurance, maintanence, etc are all covered by your subscription fee. A big company could likely get a discount on insurance for alot of subscribers so it'd cost less than an individual policy, plus when your car need service you just trade it for another one.
IOW, leasing a car. Only two types of people lease cars:
1) People who don't understand money and spend nearly as much as the payment on a car loan but don't have any asset at the end of it. Or, I suppose, who are so rich that they don't care if they're making a financially irresponsible choice.
and
2) People who are going to redline the engine 90% of the time and trade it in for another car every year, in which case a lease makes sense because you abuse the car and dump the repair bills and accelerated wear rates onto someone else.
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queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd be all for it if they start mass producing ones that you can just plug into the mains. dont have to worry about fuel..just whack it on your leccy bill. easy
You already can, just at a slower charging rate because your household wiring isn't designed to handle the current required to charge at a faster rate. My partner has a plug-in hybrid for local driving and it just goes on the wall socket in the garage after every trip.
Elbows wrote: We're giving you a hard time because you're fan-boying so hard it's cringe-worthy. We're not here discussing why you like what you like. You're just beating this obnoxious Tesla drum so hard it's hilarious. Turn it down about twelve notches and people may take you more seriously.
I don't see it that way, I see it as people that don't know what they are talking about. There is a lot of misinformation about Evs out there. Most of your arguments come from not knowing the facts of Teslas or EVs iin general. Yeah, I'm hyped about it, Im a car guy and this is without a doubt the best car I've ever owned. It performs greatm has great range, i don't have to stop at the gas station anymore, and I don't even have to do regular maintenance. Its amazing to me. I've put thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of hours into repairing cars not to mention the money. EVs are a game changer and I think Tesla makes the best ones, best range, best performance.
See this is a prime example of your fanboi'ing. Its more OTT and cringy than an Ultrasmurf who just got his Ultramar Gone Wild magazine with Gulliman as the centerfold.
Hey, make a legitimate argument and we can have a discussion! If not you are just blowing smoke.
They've already been made in the thread. But I will remind you of them.
1) Tesla has unacceptable repair wait times. Yet they just keep pushing out new models instead of trying to support their existing ones properly.
2) EVs have little to no infrastructure in existence at the moment. This makes them highly unattractive to anybody who actually wants to drive anything other than a specific commute that has charging station access.
3) Teslas, and good EVs that compare to real vehicles in performance, are very expensive. They also won't hold their value long term because of system degradation and the fact that better EVs will come out in the near future, which will absolutely kill their value when you want to upgrade. No car dealer is going to give a good trade in value for a Model S in 10 years because by that time you'll have many new models of electric vehicle that will absolutely kick the snot out of your precious model S. And anybody who is shopping for a used vehicle isn't going to want to bother with an electric vehicle if they aren't already set up to own one.
4) Any EV requires you to set up a charging station at your house. That is a major electrical project and comes with the expenses and hazards that something like that involves.
5) Musk is a douce who will never see a red cent of my money.
So yeah. You really are coming across as a bad fanboi. We get it. You got your new shiny and are happy with it, thats good for you. But don't try to brow beat everybody with its alleged superiority when there are many many objective flaws with the product that a consumer would be wise to avoid.
Ok, and ive already addressed them and they are for the most part petty non issues.
1. Yeah OK, it can take a awhile to get a tesla repaired, I've admitted that they have infrastructure issues. However when you have to leave your tesla at ther shop they give you a free loaner, you get to put those miles on another car. I consider this a great way to mitigate the issue. Also compared to other EVs I dont know that Tesla wait times are exceptional. I don't think that any company maling EVS right now had a ton of backlog in spare parts.
2. Tesla has plenty of infrastructure, is it lacking in some of the rural areas, maybe. The Supercharger network is quite extensive. I mean there was a guy here who said there are no superchargers near him...i looked iit up there were and had been for 2 years.
3. Evs that compete in performance vs ICE cars are not expensive. My model 3 performance is better than a BMW M3 and is not only cheaper to purchase but is vastly cheaper to maintain and refuel. The same can be said for a base model 3 it is priced very competitvely vs similar cars, and again once you factor in fuel and maintenance savings you end up being far ahead. The rest of your argument is just grasping at straws. Tell me how another EV is coming to come along and be so substantially better than my model 3 performance? Will it go faster? Maybe but I already have 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and can go 167. Can it get more range, maybe, but I already get 310 miles per charge, which is more than I need except for cross country travel, and i drive pretty extensively on a daily basis. Could it charge faster, sure, but they already charge pretty quickly and for the most part people charge at home anyway where speed is a nonfactor. I plug my car in and and wake up to a full charge.
As for return on investment, I've already gotten it. For example my car is better than a BMW M3, if the value of my Tesla goes down so will all older cars. That's how a market works. Anyone who buys a car as an investment is not investing wisely.
4. Firstly doing electric work is not hard or dangerous, you can watch a video on utube and do it completely safely. Or god forbid you have to hire an electrician for a few hundred dollars which you well get back in fuel savings. This is just a real whiney question and shows the weakness of your arguments in general. Where it is an issue is if you rent and there is no way for you to install charging, then yes its an issue is you don't have a supercharger near you....but thats how progress works, you cant just say a thing doesn't work because it doesn't work 100% for everyone. If that were the case wed all still be riding horses and waiting for gas stations to be built, eventually there will be chargers everywhere.
5. Thats your opinion fine sir, but I think it reflects more on you. I also think this is the real crux of your weak argument. You don't like Elon musk. Which is again a non issue, at least to me.
So i've addressed your arguments, most of which are petty non issues. and look i didnt have to resort to condescension, name calling or some kind of jerky tone. But then again I don't have to. I can easily just attack your argument. You however dont have a real argument so you resort to petty name calling....you are as enlightened as your argument. By the way a little research and backing of your argument with meaningful evidence would be nice....if you could find it.
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Necros wrote: I think Tesla does that.. they don't just make cars they sell solar panels and special battery packs for houses. They also have some special kind of solar shingles, so you use them for your roof instead of normal shingles and it acts as solar panels but I think it doesn't draw as much power as a normal panel would. Nice for if you're made of money and you want it to blend in.
These are nice....if you need to replace your roof anyway, otherwise I wouldnt tear off my roof for them. These are again more expensive on the front end, but eventually actually make you money. They are weather dependent though. Some places get much more sun and thus a better value. I don't know, Tesla actually called me since I bought their car, they are going to send someone to my house to see if its workable, but i have my doubts. I just had my roof replaced last year and none of the local installers did solar as they said it doesnt work well here.....is that true, maybe. I think the real reason is none of the local people are equipped or trained to do solar.
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queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd be all for it if they start mass producing ones that you can just plug into the mains. dont have to worry about fuel..just whack it on your leccy bill. easy
All EVs do this already. It doesnt charge very fast from a regular outlet about 4 miles an hour. If you do some wiring and put in a NEMA outlet (this is not hard or expensive) you can charge at about 30 miles an hour. This dos bring up a point that I think EV manufaturers need to address as there is a lot of misinformation out there (grey templar) and a lack of really telling the public the honest give and take on the cars. I have so many people ask me questions in public about the car that I just think the information could be shared better. When I tell people i just plug it in when I get home their minds are blown. Then I tell them yeah it goes 310 miles on about $8 worth of electricity and they cant believe it.
Tesal and Elon Musk dont like 2 wheeled vehicles, which I think is a shame, I'd love an electric Vespa or Sport bike.
Tesla makes the model X and will make the model Y which are both bigger cars/SUVs, They have plans for a pick up truck and They already have working prototypes of their Semi, in fact they are using it to make deliveries. So I guess that covers both the Big and Little machine issues.
Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?
That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.
The electric version of the Focus is 29k.
The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.
Gitzbitah wrote: Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?
That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.
The electric version of the Focus is 29k.
The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.
Exactly.
Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.
Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.
Gitzbitah wrote: Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?
That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.
The electric version of the Focus is 29k.
The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.
Exactly.
Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.
Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.
Good questions. So first off you are trying to compare a compact with a mid size sedan. So lets start with Focus EV 29K vs Modle 3 EV 35K,
Model: 2017 Tesla Model 3
Range: 220 mi battery-only
Battery: 50 kWh lithium-ion
Horsepower: 258 hp Curb weight: 3,549 lbs
Warranty: 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain
Range: 100 mi battery-only
Horsepower: 143
MSRP: From $29,120
Battery charge time: 20h at 110V, 3.5h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 33.5 kWh lithium-ion
So just on specs you can see the tesla has much more horse power, much more range, and a much larger battery, most of the Tesla Specs are almost double! Not to mention that it also has the much better charging network. So you are getting a larger car with almost twice the performance and range plus a network of chargers for a $6000 difference...oh and the over the air updates that tesla provides, plus the best antitheft system on the market and sentry mode. Thats just on very basic stats. If you want more you are going to have to be more specific with what you want comparisons on.
As for the base model 3 versus a ICE focus. Again the base model 3 is severely going to out perform the ICE focus The focus only has 123 horspower.
Here is a very good article https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/03/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-update-tesla-launches-meteor-to-kill-the-dinosaurs-of-the-auto-industry/ That shows that over 5 years a EV almost covers its upfront costs, and we all know that after 5 years is when the maitenance bills really start to add up on ICE cars....where as Telsas should have almost 0 maintenance costs. Its important to note that this article came when Tesla actually had a maintenance schedule...whcih they have since said was unnecessary. To understand you would have to see the Tesala old maintenance schedule which essentially a very expensive tire rotation every 7000 miles (which you can do yourself or get done anywhere much cheaper) and draining and replacing the brake fluid every 25,000 miles.....any car guy will tell you draining and replacing brake fluid in a sealed system is completely unnecessary and with the actual use that tesla brakes get probably something that doesnt ever need to happen, the classic disk brake system in a Tesla gets such little use it should last forever from pads, to rotors to calipers. Tesla has since admitted as much.
There are a couple of things i about this graph...nobody really know what the repair costs will be with the Tesla, its most people I know that have had a Tesla for 5 years....which is very few admittedly...have not put nearly this much into repairs or maintenance, but this is the writer of the article taking a stab at it I guess. It is much more expensive to get a tesla fixed after an accident. The sensors are very expensive to replace, and since there are few people certified to repair teslas they demand a premium for sure. Since this is usually covered by insurance I dont see this as a real cost.
How has the model 3 not solved you questions for one car family? It can go most everywhere and do everything (there are of course exceptions, but they are rare and extreme....but there are places that horses can still go that cars can't). Fueling is a matter of perspective. How much time have you spent total at the gas station the last 3 months....i havent spent any! My car is fully fueled in the morning. If you have a family you probably need to stop every 310 miles for a half hour anyway!
Here's what you're missing when you're reading this thread.
You're talking about your Tesla whatever, a car you like. That's great. Most of us are talking about real-life application of EVs on a worldwide scale. I haven't addressed your car directly because I'm not concerned about some small-time manufacturer producing cars for well-to-do first world people in urban areas. That's not a discussion on electric vehicles - at all.
You seem to be harping on how fast your car is and how much you like it. That's irrelevant to a general discussion of EVs. Yet you're making consistent, somewhat childish statements about "oh, I laugh as I pass gas stations", and "I can outrun a XXX on a drag strip". As far as I can tell no one is talking about your Tesla. I know nothing about your car other than I don't find it attractive. Beyond that I don't care. I don't think most other people care in this thread either. I don't see anyone saying that you shouldn't enjoy your car - that you like - that appeals to you.
You seem to be trying to convince everyone about how good EVs are because of how well they fit your particular situation. You're just kind of shouting past people who are discussing the worldwide implentation of EVs an actual solution to car transport (something they're not currently suitable for). No one's saying middle-upper class suburbanites shouldn't consider some kind of electric car for their commute...if that does it for you, go nuts.
This is not a personal affront, but you're just souring the thread with a lot of "my dad's cooler than your dad" style statements. You like your car - great, enjoy it. But don't come into the thread and pretend that because your Tesla suits your lifestyle that we're on the cusp of affordable, reliable, consistent EV transportation for the masses. You're looking through a microscope and ignoring the rest of the room.
Elbows wrote: Here's what you're missing when you're reading this thread.
You're talking about your Tesla whatever, a car you like. That's great. Most of us are talking about real-life application of EVs on a worldwide scale. I haven't addressed your car directly because I'm not concerned about some small-time manufacturer producing cars for well-to-do first world people in urban areas. That's not a discussion on electric vehicles - at all.
You seem to be harping on how fast your car is and how much you like it. That's irrelevant to a general discussion of EVs. Yet you're making consistent, somewhat childish statements about "oh, I laugh as I pass gas stations", and "I can outrun a XXX on a drag strip". As far as I can tell no one is talking about your Tesla. I know nothing about your car other than I don't find it attractive. Beyond that I don't care. I don't think most other people care in this thread either. I don't see anyone saying that you shouldn't enjoy your car - that you like - that appeals to you.
You seem to be trying to convince everyone about how good EVs are because of how well they fit your particular situation. You're just kind of shouting past people who are discussing the worldwide implentation of EVs an actual solution to car transport (something they're not currently suitable for). No one's saying middle-upper class suburbanites shouldn't consider some kind of electric car for their commute...if that does it for you, go nuts.
This is not a personal affront, but you're just souring the thread with a lot of "my dad's cooler than your dad" style statements. You like your car - great, enjoy it. But don't come into the thread and pretend that because your Tesla suits your lifestyle that we're on the cusp of affordable, reliable, consistent EV transportation for the masses. You're looking through a microscope and ignoring the rest of the room.
Really? I think thats a pretty odd take. Firstly again, the title is "what do you think of electric cars?" Not "What do you think of electric cars as the environmental solution to the worlds problems?" Thats what you keep trying to turn this into.
I've addressed why EVs are better as a world wide application for car transport already. If you notice the last response is about the base model 3 being better than a ford focus, which was the question that was asked. They fit my driving situation which is actually a pretty extreme situation, which means if it fits mine it will fit most. I spoke about the performace of my car because people were saying that EVs couldn't compete with ICE cars.
I believe your arguments were about lithium mining, which is a very minor issue compared to the damage oil and gasoline do in this world, as such its been dismissed. So if you want to explain why you specifically don't think they are a solution I'll have that discussion with you, but you just saying it without any backing info doesn't make it true. Your points are based in as much fact as Grey Templars...and are ans enlightened as "Windmill cancer".
Really? I think thats a pretty odd take. Firstly again, the title is "what do you think of electric cars?" Not "What do you think of electric cars as the environmental solution to the worlds problems?" Thats what you keep trying to turn this into.
I've addressed why EVs are better as a world wide application for car transport already. If you notice the last response is about the base model 3 being better than a ford focus, which was the question that was asked. They fit my driving situation which is actually a pretty extreme situation, which means if it fits mine it will fit most. I spoke about the performace of my car because people were saying that EVs couldn't compete with ICE cars.
I believe your arguments were about lithium mining, which is a very minor issue compared to the damage oil and gasoline do in this world, as such its been dismissed. So if you want to explain why you specifically don't think they are a solution I'll have that discussion with you, but you just saying it without any backing info doesn't make it true. Your points are based in as much fact as Grey Templars...and are ans enlightened as "Windmill cancer".
If you can't charge your EV everywhere in the world, then they aren't ready for world wide application yet. Maybe, maybe in 10-15 years they will be able to go anywhere in the US. But they're not anywhere close to being viable for that right now.
Your constant ranting about your Tesla's performance is rather irrelevant. Tesla's are a premium vehicle. Expensive, and heavily propped up by both government subsidies and the obsession of an eccentric rich guy. Using them to gauge the overall viability of Electric Vehicles as a whole is like gauging the strength of the average human by only looking at the participants of a body builder competition.
Yes. You can build an electric vehicle that compares in terms of performance with a regular vehicle. but said vehicle is expensive and comes with a lot of drawbacks in terms of expensive repair bills and long wait times and you have limited places where you can drive.
Yes, those drawbacks will get better over the next decade. I expect electric vehicles will probably replace most regular vehicles within the next 20 years or so. But that is the future. Not the present. For the present, EVs are still overall a fairly lame option with too many drawbacks for too little benefit. It may be working out for you, but most people don't have your disposable income to get a Tesla.
Really? I think thats a pretty odd take. Firstly again, the title is "what do you think of electric cars?" Not "What do you think of electric cars as the environmental solution to the worlds problems?" Thats what you keep trying to turn this into.
I've addressed why EVs are better as a world wide application for car transport already. If you notice the last response is about the base model 3 being better than a ford focus, which was the question that was asked. They fit my driving situation which is actually a pretty extreme situation, which means if it fits mine it will fit most. I spoke about the performace of my car because people were saying that EVs couldn't compete with ICE cars.
I believe your arguments were about lithium mining, which is a very minor issue compared to the damage oil and gasoline do in this world, as such its been dismissed. So if you want to explain why you specifically don't think they are a solution I'll have that discussion with you, but you just saying it without any backing info doesn't make it true. Your points are based in as much fact as Grey Templars...and are ans enlightened as "Windmill cancer".
If you can't charge your EV everywhere in the world, then they aren't ready for world wide application yet. Maybe, maybe in 10-15 years they will be able to go anywhere in the US. But they're not anywhere close to being viable for that right now.
Your constant ranting about your Tesla's performance is rather irrelevant. Tesla's are a premium vehicle. Expensive, and heavily propped up by both government subsidies and the obsession of an eccentric rich guy. Using them to gauge the overall viability of Electric Vehicles as a whole is like gauging the strength of the average human by only looking at the participants of a body builder competition.
Yes. You can build an electric vehicle that compares in terms of performance with a regular vehicle. but said vehicle is expensive and comes with a lot of drawbacks in terms of expensive repair bills and long wait times and you have limited places where you can drive.
Yes, those drawbacks will get better over the next decade. I expect electric vehicles will probably replace most regular vehicles within the next 20 years or so. But that is the future. Not the present. For the present, EVs are still overall a fairly lame option with too many drawbacks for too little benefit. It may be working out for you, but most people don't have your disposable income to get a Tesla.
I love how you guys take a question about a guy buying a car in America and have to grasp at worldwide straws to try to make a point.
Firstly why does a car have to be usable everywhere in the world instantly? Most of the world does have electricity though right? So pretty much anywhere there is electricity you can charge it. However your arguments go against what most people like to call progressive implementation. Right now in the United states and most of the modern world EVs are pretty usable and in the US with Teslas Supercharger system you can go pretty much anywhere.
Some Telsas are premium vehicles, just like some Fords are premium or some GM cars are premium, the base model 3 is not. Its 35K hardly premium, unless you consider a toyota corrola or honda accord premium which the tesla actually ends up being far cheaper than in the long run, and its a much better car in almost every metric. Expensive repairs? Jesus can you read, the cost of ownership including repairs is by far cheaper. Long wait times you get a free loaner.....whaaaa.
Oh and if you want to talk about government subsidies lets talk about all the oil subsidies out there. Oil is one of the most subsidized products on the planet. Jesus, the US military budget is basically a giant oil subsidy. Lets not also forget how heavily our legacy auto manufactures have been subsidized and bailed out. How much of our healthcare subsidizes sickness based on the pollution caused by ICE cars and oil. How many oil spills do we need to pay to clean up? How many bombs do we need to drop, how many dictators do we need to prop up? Subsidies? Really? You get your arguments from fox news don't you?
So again really weak arguments against Teslas and EVs in general.
We are very lucky to have the lead in this technology and the US should support it as much as we can. If China gets the lead in this........US auto manufacturing is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD! That is a lot of jobs and a lot of Americans in the unemployment lines. I will never understand the short sightedness of flag waving "Mericans" who always fight against their own self interests. There are bunch of people around me who used to work at the Lordstown plant who don't get why they lost their jobs. I know why they lost them. The big three are slow and stupid companies, still trying to hold on to the old ways when they could have been in the lead. Ford isnt even making sedans anymore because "Sedans don't sell". No, Corrolas sell, Accords sell, Ford just cant make a competitive product because they are so far behind. But you know what these people have lost their jobs because they voted conservative, "He's gonna bring back coal".....keep looking in the rear view mirror folks, because thats the only place you will see those jobs.
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As far as affordable EVs go, they are more affordable over the years that you own them but unfortunately the purchase price is higher. There are some good articles and YT videos talking about the costs they spent over time and the average consensus seems to be that an EV will cost you about 75% less to own over time than a gas car, due to the lower cost of electricity and little to no regular maintenance. About all you have to worry about is tires and breaks. So if you would spend $1000 a year on gas, you'll spend about $250 a year extra on your electric bill.
Using the Ford Focus for example, a base model Focus starts around $18k, that's a good price for a new small car. The EV is almost twice that at $29k. The base model isn't a good comparison though because the EV version basically has all of the goodies you get in the high end version that is $24k. I think that is one of the problems with EVs, is that the car companies are loading them up with features that make them more expensive, over time we may see more base models as EVs become more popular, batteries become cheaper to make and have better range.
I think, personally, I would rather spend $6000 more and get a base model tesla model 3 than the Focus EV. You'll have better range and tech inside. However there is one big issue where Teslas are making so many cars now that they will be using the tax refunds soon, they will be gone by the end of the year.. other companies that haven't made as many do still have the refund which can be up to $7000.
Yeah, elon musk is a tool, but then so was Bill Gates and how many people use Windows? Lots of people seem to hate the guy that made Battlefoam, but they still have a great product that many of us own
I am still planning to test drive a model 3 soon. However after seeing some videos on the new VW Hippy Van, I'm almost tempted to just wait for that. But me being the impulse buyer that I am, I probably won't be able to wait till 2022. Here's a long but great video on it
The model 3 is actually set up to make you money once the tech and government regulations are there. So imagine this you go to work and charge your car in the parking lot (remote charging is already a thing, just like with phones you wont actuallty have to plug them in, just drive over a carger and leave it there). Someone goes on their app and needs a car. They hail your car! your car drives around and acts as their taxi using the self drive features. When they are done it goes back to your parking space, recharges for your trip home......and now while you were working your car has actually put money into your account. That's pretty far away, but not as far as people think. The model three has all the hardware already installed for this including an internal camera to people cant mess with your car while they are riding in it.
I dunno if I'd do that, I'd be too scared they'll mess up my car camera or not. Plus, cooties. But I could see it coming in handy for a biz, like if you wanted to set up a driverless taxi service kind of thing. There would probably be a lot of competition though.
Necros wrote: I dunno if I'd do that, I'd be too scared they'll mess up my car camera or not. Plus, cooties. But I could see it coming in handy for a biz, like if you wanted to set up a driverless taxi service kind of thing. There would probably be a lot of competition though.
If well done and the moneys right id totally think about it. I'm sure it will have a rating factor that will keep jackassery down to a minimum. Sure you are still going to have some horror stories like lift and uber do, but it might not be too bad.
Also for those that think Teslas are only for the elite. Here is a graphic that shows the model 3 actually is currently the Cheapest EV based on range per dollar, it also out performs them in almost every other way and has the Supercharging network.
Grey Templar wrote: “Cheapest EV for range” doesn’t change that it’s sticker price is out of most people’s price range.
Yeah, the 35K model is so far into the luxury field the air is thin up there. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
When automobiles first came out the were a luxury only for the rich.......Evs are not. $35K (not even including insentives which actually brings it down to 29K in some places) no maitenance charges and 1/4 the fuel cost is not a high price. Its AGAIN cheaper than comparable ICE cars but the Tesla still has much better stats and will get even cheaper the longer you own it...which figures are saying these should last at minimum 500,000 miles if not a million or more.
Grey Templar wrote: “Cheapest EV for range” doesn’t change that it’s sticker price is out of most people’s price range.
You keep saying this, but you established that you think "any car you can't pay in cash for" is not affordable - ie, anything >10K. Is that accurately describing your view?
Because if so, I'm telling you, this is not a rational position and by that definition every car on the market is out of most people's price range. I have no dog in this particular fight but this isn't a reasonable counterargument.
Grey Templar wrote: It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.
I'll give it to you, you just never get tired of being wrong do you?
The analysts at Kelley Blue Book today reported the estimated average transaction price for light vehicles in the United States was $37,577 in December 2018
If it was up to Grey Templar new cars would be 10K.......i don't know what a new 10K car is.........maybe a YUGO.......in 1985?
I think Yugo's were like cheaper than $5k back in the day
To me $35k is too high for a sedan, but my last 3 cars/SUVs were all less than $25k. When I started looking into a new Jeep wrangler I saw that for the upgrades I wanted, I'd be in the $40k range and that kinda blew me away. I looked into other options and the prices were all similar for what I would want. 6 months later now I accepted that that's just how much I'm gonna have to pay for the kind of new car that I would want, and the more I think about it, I really don't need a big SUV to get me to work and the grocery store. After researching EVs I decided I'd rather go electric for the next one. Just haven't decided which one yet, but I don't think I'll be ready to buy till this summer anyway, waiting for my mid-year bonus If I don't like driving the Model 3 since I'm so used to SUV height, I may just hold off and save another year or so for the model Y, or see what other taller EVs come out next.
Necros wrote: I think Yugo's were like cheaper than $5k back in the day
To me $35k is too high for a sedan, but my last 3 cars/SUVs were all less than $25k. When I started looking into a new Jeep wrangler I saw that for the upgrades I wanted, I'd be in the $40k range and that kinda blew me away. I looked into other options and the prices were all similar for what I would want. 6 months later now I accepted that that's just how much I'm gonna have to pay for the kind of new car that I would want, and the more I think about it, I really don't need a big SUV to get me to work and the grocery store. After researching EVs I decided I'd rather go electric for the next one. Just haven't decided which one yet, but I don't think I'll be ready to buy till this summer anyway, waiting for my mid-year bonus If I don't like driving the Model 3 since I'm so used to SUV height, I may just hold off and save another year or so for the model Y, or see what other taller EVs come out next.
I think 35K for a basic sedan is probably too much also. But a even the base model 3 isnt a basic sedan. I think as far as 35K cars go, its performance is far superior and probably worth it just based on that. Then you get the cheap fuel, ease of maintenance and possible extended longevity its a deal. Now for the full experience you have to add an additional 8k for auto pilot and Full self drive...so there is that too.
The model 3 has a ton of storage space, the trunk is huge and then you can fold down the seats, plus there is a frunk. But if sedans are not for you...then they just arent. If you do like it, remember to ask about floor models with adjustments, that saved me a buttload.
They need to make a basic electric car, maybe a 2 seater and make it as low cost as possible. Theyçre trying to make them stylish to counter he image they they have to be cheap and small. Maybe a lot of people want cheap and don't mind small.
Techpriestsupport wrote: They need to make a basic electric car, maybe a 2 seater and make it as low cost as possible. Theyçre trying to make them stylish to counter he image they they have to be cheap and small. Maybe a lot of people want cheap and don't mind small.
There are, but nobody wants them. There are a lot of small enimic short range electric cars, they don't sell well, at least in the united states. Most people are not going to buy an EV unless it is in most ways better than the ICE car it will replace. You have to also remember the most expensive part right now on an EV is the battery, which dictates range and horsepower. So any car EV with a decent battery is going to be have to factor that into the cost.
These are the cheapest EVS out there, they are econo boxes but again because of the battery expense and limited production (because of limited demand) they are not cheap.
For 2-seaters, I think Smart cars are all electric now, and start in the low 20's. To me that's too high for 2 seats and 140 mile range. But i don't think you can get range much higher on them since they're so small, they probably use as much space for batteries as they can. Personally I'd be scared to drive one them around here, too many big cars & SUVs and distracted drivers. Plus I'm too fat, they would need to make mine a 1-seater
I agree though, for your average consumer they are going to need to have more affordable options, with good range. I think 300 miles should be the minimum with more like 5-600 at the top end, and charging speeds at stations in the 15 minute max range. Will get there eventually but it will take a few years if not maybe another decade or so.
Of course if gas prices keep climbing the way they have been the last few months maybe more people will start to think about EVs sooner.
Techpriestsupport wrote: Is anyone here calling for all vehicles to be replaced with electrical powered ones? Asides from Neil degrasse Tyson?
No.
No one is saying all internal combustion engines should be replaced except for NDT, and I don't see any evidence he's here.
Suppose we only, hah, "only " replace half the billions of internal combustion engines on earth with electric? Or something else.
Think it might make a difference in CO2 emissions? Think it might reduce fossile fuel use?
Well, pretty much the entire US Democratic Party. GND is a thing.
I am intrigued about electric scooters / bikes. Not the crappy hipster scooters infesting urban centers like a plague, but an electric version of the ubiquitous moped. What are the applications of electric mopeds in the 2nd world and urban 1st world?
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Andrew1975 wrote: The model 3 is actually set up to make you money once the tech and government regulations are there. So imagine this you go to work and charge your car in the parking lot (remote charging is already a thing, just like with phones you wont actuallty have to plug them in, just drive over a carger and leave it there). Someone goes on their app and needs a car. They hail your car! your car drives around and acts as their taxi using the self drive features. When they are done it goes back to your parking space, recharges for your trip home......and now while you were working your car has actually put money into your account. That's pretty far away, but not as far as people think. The model three has all the hardware already installed for this including an internal camera to people cant mess with your car while they are riding in it.
So someone else is paying for your energy? How long do you think thats going to last?
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Grey Templar wrote: It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.
Indeed. The Acura ILX is $30K. $35K is the highest end Honda Accord Touring.
You're also comparing substantially larger vehicles to electric econo boxes at luxury price points. Prices still have to drop a good bit before electrics become competitive. NOT saying they won't but they just aren't there yet.
The energy to charge 310 miles is like 8 dollars, having a taxi drive you around I would say would be at least $2 a mile. Not saying youd get all that of course I'm sure Tesla would take a pretty big cut, but you'd probably make as much as an UBER or lyft driver.....and you really are not having to do anything for it.
The modlel 3 is a pretty large car actually the interior is easily as big as my wifes Chrysler 300 and it has more storage room. Its not a small econo bax. Most of the other ones are though. That smart car is stupid expensive for what it gives you.
As for replacing all ICE cars, I think it will happen just because EVs will be the better deal. I think the model 3 is already at that point, I think in most any terms it blows away any other 35K car definitely better than the accord or acura, but its a mid priced car for sure. Now it is a toss up though. The model 3 is going to have better performance, cheaper fuel and cheaper maintenance. The Acura and Accord will have a nicer interior and better sound system. The base model 35K model 3 has cloth seats and a basic sound system. If you go up to $37.5 K you get the leather seats and the premium sound system (one of the best factory sound systems I have ever heard). Still I think when you compare it to similarly priced cars the model 3 is going to come out as the better car for most people.
We will have to see if someone can make a cheaper smaller car at a reasonable price.
Techpriestsupport wrote: Is anyone here calling for all vehicles to be replaced with electrical powered ones? Asides from Neil degrasse Tyson?
No.
No one is saying all internal combustion engines should be replaced except for NDT, and I don't see any evidence he's here.
Suppose we only, hah, "only " replace half the billions of internal combustion engines on earth with electric? Or something else.
Think it might make a difference in CO2 emissions? Think it might reduce fossile fuel use?
Well, pretty much the entire US Democratic Party. GND is a thing.
I am intrigued about electric scooters / bikes. Not the crappy hipster scooters infesting urban centers like a plague, but an electric version of the ubiquitous moped. What are the applications of electric mopeds in the 2nd world and urban 1st world?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andrew1975 wrote: The model 3 is actually set up to make you money once the tech and government regulations are there. So imagine this you go to work and charge your car in the parking lot (remote charging is already a thing, just like with phones you wont actuallty have to plug them in, just drive over a carger and leave it there). Someone goes on their app and needs a car. They hail your car! your car drives around and acts as their taxi using the self drive features. When they are done it goes back to your parking space, recharges for your trip home......and now while you were working your car has actually put money into your account. That's pretty far away, but not as far as people think. The model three has all the hardware already installed for this including an internal camera to people cant mess with your car while they are riding in it.
So someone else is paying for your energy? How long do you think thats going to last?
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Grey Templar wrote: It may not be a 100k luxury car, but 35k is still in the luxury car ballpark.
Indeed. The Acura ILX is $30K. $35K is the highest end Honda Accord Touring.
You're also comparing substantially larger vehicles to electric econo boxes at luxury price points. Prices still have to drop a good bit before electrics become competitive. NOT saying they won't but they just aren't there yet.
No, the entire democrat party is not wanting to ban all current cars, stop getting your information from fox propaganda channel.
Gitzbitah wrote: Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?
That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.
The electric version of the Focus is 29k.
The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.
Exactly.
Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.
Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.
Good questions. So first off you are trying to compare a compact with a mid size sedan. So lets start with Focus EV 29K vs Modle 3 EV 35K,
Model: 2017 Tesla Model 3
Range: 220 mi battery-only
Battery: 50 kWh lithium-ion
Horsepower: 258 hp Curb weight: 3,549 lbs
Warranty: 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain
Range: 100 mi battery-only
Horsepower: 143
MSRP: From $29,120
Battery charge time: 20h at 110V, 3.5h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 33.5 kWh lithium-ion
So just on specs you can see the tesla has much more horse power, much more range, and a much larger battery, most of the Tesla Specs are almost double! Not to mention that it also has the much better charging network. So you are getting a larger car with almost twice the performance and range plus a network of chargers for a $6000 difference...oh and the over the air updates that tesla provides, plus the best antitheft system on the market and sentry mode. Thats just on very basic stats. If you want more you are going to have to be more specific with what you want comparisons on.
As for the base model 3 versus a ICE focus. Again the base model 3 is severely going to out perform the ICE focus The focus only has 123 horspower.
Here is a very good article https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/03/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-update-tesla-launches-meteor-to-kill-the-dinosaurs-of-the-auto-industry/ That shows that over 5 years a EV almost covers its upfront costs, and we all know that after 5 years is when the maitenance bills really start to add up on ICE cars....where as Telsas should have almost 0 maintenance costs. Its important to note that this article came when Tesla actually had a maintenance schedule...whcih they have since said was unnecessary. To understand you would have to see the Tesala old maintenance schedule which essentially a very expensive tire rotation every 7000 miles (which you can do yourself or get done anywhere much cheaper) and draining and replacing the brake fluid every 25,000 miles.....any car guy will tell you draining and replacing brake fluid in a sealed system is completely unnecessary and with the actual use that tesla brakes get probably something that doesnt ever need to happen, the classic disk brake system in a Tesla gets such little use it should last forever from pads, to rotors to calipers. Tesla has since admitted as much.
There are a couple of things i about this graph...nobody really know what the repair costs will be with the Tesla, its most people I know that have had a Tesla for 5 years....which is very few admittedly...have not put nearly this much into repairs or maintenance, but this is the writer of the article taking a stab at it I guess. It is much more expensive to get a tesla fixed after an accident. The sensors are very expensive to replace, and since there are few people certified to repair teslas they demand a premium for sure. Since this is usually covered by insurance I dont see this as a real cost.
How has the model 3 not solved you questions for one car family? It can go most everywhere and do everything (there are of course exceptions, but they are rare and extreme....but there are places that horses can still go that cars can't). Fueling is a matter of perspective. How much time have you spent total at the gas station the last 3 months....i havent spent any! My car is fully fueled in the morning. If you have a family you probably need to stop every 310 miles for a half hour anyway!
Aside from when you're looking at a full day of work and running around after the kids and there isn't half an hour to spare before dinnertime, but your charge won't last that long.
There's also the probability that $30K-plus is well beyond a one-car-family's budget...
I thought it was funny when you were accused of shilling for Tesla... at first. Now I'm really starting to wonder.
Aside from when you're looking at a full day of work and running around after the kids and there isn't half an hour to spare before dinnertime, but your charge won't last that long.
Your charge won't last 310 miles? You drive more than that on an average day? If so then yeah, maybe its not a good choice for you, most people dont drive that much. Most people could just plug in at night and wake up with a full charge. No need to even spend the 10 minutes at the gas station like i used to. I do it and there are days that I drive close to 310 miles in a day, but I'm an exception not a rule. Most people drive under 100 miles a day.
There's also the probability that $30K-plus is well beyond a one-car-family's budget...
I think you mean potentiality. Which is a fair point, its not as cheap as an econobox......its firmly in midrange sedan territory, which is what it is. Ok, then most any new car is beyond their budget. There will be used ones. Your argument here is that cars are too expensive not EVS. The fact of the matter is the 35K EV is going to be cheaper in the long run. Most people replace their cars when they can not afford the maintenance anymore, then they have to buy a new car. EVs are very simple machines, and as long as you do not abuse the battery by letting it sit fully charged or running it down to 0 all the time it is estimated that the life of these cars will go beyond 500K miles. In that time most people would have bought, replaced and maintained 3 ICE cars. Thats a whole lot of savings.
Gitzbitah wrote: Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?
That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.
The electric version of the Focus is 29k.
The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.
Exactly.
Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.
Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.
The range argument is pretty hilarious when my partner has a plug-in hybrid with ~35 miles of range on battery and has to get gas every two months or so, on a 9 gallon tank. Yeah, electric cars aren't great for long road trips, but they're fine for the vast majority of driving.
Peregrine wrote: The range argument is pretty hilarious when my partner has a plug-in hybrid with ~35 miles of range on battery and has to get gas every two months or so, on a 9 gallon tank. Yeah, electric cars aren't great for long road trips, but they're fine for the vast majority of driving.
For sure. But even in extreme electric cars work well for the most part. I drive a lot. 1600 miles a month...and thats just work miles. I never have to stop at the Supercharger, but its great to know that they are there for cross country trips and such.
Going over it in my head, I really don't think they're that bad for road trips. If you have a 300 mile range, you'll drive, say, 250 miles+, 4+ hours at average speeds?.. By that time you would most likely want to stop, pee, poop, eat something, and overall take a break and stretch your legs and do something besides be in the car. The time it takes to do all that, you'll be almost fully charged again and back on the road. Will be even better when the v3 supercharges are all over, and the other public chargers get faster too.
I was just watching a youtube video today where a guy did a 1000 mile road trip from NY to florida in 1 day, he was stopping more frequently and only charging up a little past half way because the charging speeds are faster when your battery is lower, or something like that
Even Robert De Niro is shilling electric cars now, I see.
widespread electric car ownership still has several hurdles to overcome here - and range isn't necessarily one of them. The first is charging - a large number of people, especially in cities have on-street parking, so charging at home isn't an option until the council installs charging points on all the pavements (sidewalks). Running a cable across the pavement is asking for a lawsuit when someone trips over it. At work, the situation isn't necessarily any better, especially now since some councils are thinking of taxing parking spaces.
Once that's solved, now we need to consider the electricity distribution network. We're already turning a blind eye to the problem of electricity generation here; old power stations reaching end of life with nothing obvious to replace them.
I've heard anecdotally that battery degradation is turning out to be less of a problem than first anticipated, and that at present depreciation isn't an issue either (although that's mostly due to demand exceeding supply; I'm sure that'll change in time). The Sam Vimes "boots" problem still applies, though - if you can't afford the upfront cost, then the ongoing costs are irrelevant, regardless of whether they'll end up lower in total over the lifetime of the car. I'll say no more on that otherwise it'll get "political".
If electric car ownership becomes widespread before the charging infrastructure or vehicle range increases sufficiently, I wonder if hiring a car for one-off trips might become more common? At the moment my commute is 30 miles each way; 60 miles a day. Easily within the capacity of an electric car. If I need to make a long-distance journey, I could hire something for that annual trip to Warhammer World or whatnot. I'd need to look at the numbers to see if I'd still be better off overall, but it might work out.
Numbers of EVs and charging points are a bit chicken and egg, aren't they?
Like you I do a medium commute of about 50 miles there and back each day.
Apart from the up-front cost, the key problem with an electric car is that I can't possibly install a charger at my home, as I don't have off-street parking (or any parking at all, actually.) Therefore I would be reliant on the two chargers at Redbridge Park and Ride in Oxford, or the two chargers in the Waitrose car park in Henley.
However these are merely problems of pump-priming. If the UK government is serious about promoting transition to EVs, they need to invest in the infrastructure at all levels, from baseline generation to distribution network to street-side charging.
As my car is turning 10 years this summer, I am considering my options for the coming years.
I have been driving 3 different cars in 20 years so far.
The first two have been used cars, and my actual one was a new one.
Back then, 2009, we had an economic crisis which was also affecting the sales of the car manufacturers. Government decided to set up a program that gave you 2500 EUR extra if you sent your old car to the compactor.
My old one had been broken down at 230 000 km, and would have needed some electric device replaced, which had a price tag of 1.000 EUR on it.
So I ordered a new car on the internet, an Opel Astra GTC "Adam Opel Edition" with no additional extras , and I paid for my new car, brand new, less than 13.000 EUR.
It was a very reliable car until the last 2 or 3 years, and now it's getting more and more expensive to keep it running.
If considering that my entry for this middle class car was really, really cheap, but keeping in mind what I paid for maintenance and gas over the whole time, I think it will be fairly reasonable to get an electric car.
I commute 60 km every day, that is no problem at all. I do a 180 km drive every 2 weeks or so, even that should be no problem with a charged battery.
And in addition, I really consider leasing a car instead of buying a new one.
Peregrine wrote: The range argument is pretty hilarious when my partner has a plug-in hybrid with ~35 miles of range on battery and has to get gas every two months or so, on a 9 gallon tank. Yeah, electric cars aren't great for long road trips, but they're fine for the vast majority of driving.
The charging infrastructure does need work for sure, but its coming around. Its still very early in the adoption stage for electric cars. Most people that own their own home and can set up charging should do fine, as that number grows more stations will be put into place. Until then there are plenty of ICE cars for people living in apartments and such. EV manufacturers or other private companies need to step up and create more charging infrastructure. In the US the only company taking that step freely is Tesla. Volkswagen is also building more charging infrastructure, but that was more of a deal to mitigate "Diesel Gate". It would be nice to see charging stations at every gas station. Here in the US, Tesla has teamed up with Sheets, so at many of their stations there are banks of superchargers, its pretty nice because for gas stations Sheets has pretty decent food and other amenities.
There are also what are called "Destination Superchargers" where a business has installed had Tesla install a charger, these are usually at hotels or restaurants. There are a awful lot of them.
Lastly there is an app called plug share. This app allows you to list your personal charger for use, or possibly your small bushiness own charger for public use. I'm not exactly sure how it works as I've never needed to use it. But when you pull up the map it show chargers all over the place that people will allow you to use, many of them small bushiness that are hoping you will come in and spend a few bucks to offset the costs of filling up. It also lists the type and charging rate of the charger, so this is good for all EVs.
As for long trips, when you put in your destination Tesla actually plots your charging along the way (its possible other EVS do this, but I don't have experience there) so long trips are not a problem as long as there is charging infrastructure in your country. The shortest range Tesla is 220 miles, but its unlikely you will get all of that, probably closer to 90% of it from my experience...but i have a heavy foot. So essentially even with the shortest range Tesla you are driving for 4 hours before you need to stop for a recharge. Thats leg stretching, bladder draining, coffee swigging, snack grabbing time......and off you go.
And if people want to know why Im all about Teslas here is why https://www.wired.com/story/audi-e-tron-epa-range-anxiety-batteries/ Essentially lots of "competition" is coming that have not figured out the technology yet. Their battery management is not as good causing the batteries to degrade which makes so many of the arguments people have made on this forum legitimate. Combine that with a lack of charging and I just don't see value and security in these cars.
Also while Tesla is installing its own charging grid European car manufacturers want the EU to pay for their charging https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/ I don't really think its the tax payers jobs to have to pay for infrastructure so that car makers can make money. Could they loan them the money......possibly, but not just give. Even then I think the price if building the charging network should be factored into the price of the cars.
Latest news: 1000 km range battery is currently developed for use in EVs - > non flammable, made of non organic materials, at least ten times lifetime cycle of current batteries.
Gitzbitah wrote: Andrew, I think the comparison point of the BMW M3 is where you're losing folks. Sure, Teslas aren't expensive compared to a 66k dollar car. But are they compared to a new Ford Focus (20k)?
That, to me, is a much more fair comparison if you're going to argue for the economic value of an EV vs ICE.
The electric version of the Focus is 29k.
The question then becomes, how many miles equals 9k worth of maintenance and gas, and how many years will it take for you to recoup your investment? That's the information and angle you need to win the argument that electric vehicles save you money.
Exactly.
Not to mention the issue of some families only being able to afford one car, and need that car to go everywhere and do everything, and can't wait half an hour to refuel it.
Can those issues be solved? Yes, they can. Have they been solved yet? No, they have not. Not yet. Will they be solved? Probably... but as I said, not yet.
Good questions. So first off you are trying to compare a compact with a mid size sedan. So lets start with Focus EV 29K vs Modle 3 EV 35K,
Model: 2017 Tesla Model 3
Range: 220 mi battery-only
Battery: 50 kWh lithium-ion
Horsepower: 258 hp Curb weight: 3,549 lbs
Warranty: 4 yr/50,000 mi basic, 8 yr/100,000 mi powertrain
Range: 100 mi battery-only
Horsepower: 143
MSRP: From $29,120
Battery charge time: 20h at 110V, 3.5h at 220V, 0.5h at 440V
Battery: 33.5 kWh lithium-ion
So just on specs you can see the tesla has much more horse power, much more range, and a much larger battery, most of the Tesla Specs are almost double! Not to mention that it also has the much better charging network. So you are getting a larger car with almost twice the performance and range plus a network of chargers for a $6000 difference...oh and the over the air updates that tesla provides, plus the best antitheft system on the market and sentry mode. Thats just on very basic stats. If you want more you are going to have to be more specific with what you want comparisons on.
As for the base model 3 versus a ICE focus. Again the base model 3 is severely going to out perform the ICE focus The focus only has 123 horspower.
Here is a very good article https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/03/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-ownership-update-tesla-launches-meteor-to-kill-the-dinosaurs-of-the-auto-industry/ That shows that over 5 years a EV almost covers its upfront costs, and we all know that after 5 years is when the maitenance bills really start to add up on ICE cars....where as Telsas should have almost 0 maintenance costs. Its important to note that this article came when Tesla actually had a maintenance schedule...whcih they have since said was unnecessary. To understand you would have to see the Tesala old maintenance schedule which essentially a very expensive tire rotation every 7000 miles (which you can do yourself or get done anywhere much cheaper) and draining and replacing the brake fluid every 25,000 miles.....any car guy will tell you draining and replacing brake fluid in a sealed system is completely unnecessary and with the actual use that tesla brakes get probably something that doesnt ever need to happen, the classic disk brake system in a Tesla gets such little use it should last forever from pads, to rotors to calipers. Tesla has since admitted as much.
There are a couple of things i about this graph...nobody really know what the repair costs will be with the Tesla, its most people I know that have had a Tesla for 5 years....which is very few admittedly...have not put nearly this much into repairs or maintenance, but this is the writer of the article taking a stab at it I guess. It is much more expensive to get a tesla fixed after an accident. The sensors are very expensive to replace, and since there are few people certified to repair teslas they demand a premium for sure. Since this is usually covered by insurance I dont see this as a real cost.
How has the model 3 not solved you questions for one car family? It can go most everywhere and do everything (there are of course exceptions, but they are rare and extreme....but there are places that horses can still go that cars can't). Fueling is a matter of perspective. How much time have you spent total at the gas station the last 3 months....i havent spent any! My car is fully fueled in the morning. If you have a family you probably need to stop every 310 miles for a half hour anyway!
I have a hard time believing that graph. 4.000 for 5 years of insurance? More like 14.000$. My wife spends less than the average Model 3 insurance rate on gas per year.
As someone mentioned previously, Tesla reliability and parts availability has become some bad some insurers (like Allianz in Germany) refuse to insure them altogether.
The electric cars have lower maintenance costs might be true of Nissans or Fords, certainly not Teslas. And god forbid if you're ever on a minor crash.
Teslas are expensive hangar queens. If you're lucky they're great cars, but I wouldn't trust them as my only vehicle or even make the economic case for them. The potential for everything to go wrong is just massive.
Thats what insurance is for. By the way when I switched form my Mazda 3 to my Tesla model 3 and my insurance barely went up. Im sure it depends on your driving record z(mine is super clean, no at fault accidents or tickets in 5 years....knock on wood) and what company you choose. Some of the insurance companies do really try to rape you on insurance. I switched from Safeco to AAA. Safeco wanted an extra $2k a year. AAA barely went up.
You can always find weird outlyer situations, but they don't prove a point. I could paste a whole wall full of other companies having issues. From Honda recalling cars.....but deciding what they are going to pay you for them, to cars with transmissions blowing on the first day of use all the way to exhaust catching your $500,000 supercar on fire. Crap happens. I'm also wondering about how truthful your Reddit article really is. Also you showed 1 picture out of the whole collection of damaged pictures. Its like you work for FOX news, give a little glimpse and then tell people its insanity. Stop reaching for straws.
By the way, if you hit something in your Tesla( as opposed to someone hitting you)....you are doing it wrong. The thing gives you tons of warnings if you are even getting close to something. I can also put up many Utube videos of Teslas saving people lives because the collision monitoring stopped them from getting hit.
Future War Cultist wrote: The model 3 is the saloon/sedan isn’t it? Is it bucking the trend of declining saloon sales?
They are selling as fast as they can make them. The model S took a hit. I guess it would be considered a Saloon sure. Tesla believes when the Model Y (crossover SUV) comes out some time later this year or early next it will outsell all Teslas combined.
Yeah it's a sedan, kind of similar size to a honda civic I think. That's the one thing about it I don't like, but that's only because I'm so used to driving a SUV. So I'm just going to test drive one and see if I like it, if not I'll wait for the Model Y which will be more cross-over sized, or see what other taller EVs are going to be coming out next.
Necros wrote: Yeah it's a sedan, kind of similar size to a honda civic I think. That's the one thing about it I don't like, but that's only because I'm so used to driving a SUV. So I'm just going to test drive one and see if I like it, if not I'll wait for the Model Y which will be more cross-over sized, or see what other taller EVs are going to be coming out next.
No, I've had Honda civics...this is larger than an accord even. Its very comparable to my wifes 300 of the inside....not as big on the outside though.
Thats good, I'm a big fella and I need space. I kinda miss the old fashioned cars with the gear shift on the steering wheel and bench seats, with wide open legroom under the dashboard. Kinda wondering why EVs aren't like that, they don't need a shift or parking break or anything between the seats, it's just empty storage and a couple USB plugs in the Model 3
Yeah, i used to romance bench seats.....until I drove my friends SS after a fresh armor all treatment and was sliding all over the place. They have no support.
Cars are a very personal thing, I think the best thing you can do is just take one for a test drive. You may like it, you may hate it. The interior design is quite a shock for some people, but once you get used to it, you will wonder why other cars are not like this.
Andrew1975 wrote: The charging infrastructure does need work for sure, but its coming around.
... ... ...
Also while Tesla is installing its own charging grid European car manufacturers want the EU to pay for their charging https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://insideevs.com/european-carmakers-charging-infrastructure/ I don't really think its the tax payers jobs to have to pay for infrastructure so that car makers can make money. Could they loan them the money......possibly, but not just give. Even then I think the price if building the charging network should be factored into the price of the cars.
To look at this point a different way, governments pay for road building because it's important for the economy that people can move around, and that kind of wide-area infrastructure affects the whole nation and needs good co-ordination. People then buy cars and the cost of the road network is recovered from various types of taxation.
There's no reason EV charger networks couldn't be done on the same basis, particularly where the government is committed to improving air quality.
What we're seeing in Britain though, is a kind of informal public-private partnership. The garages who sell or service EVs have chargers. Lidl and Ikea have chargers in some of their car parks. Local councils are putting chargers into car parks and street side locations. Finally, there are a number of network companies putting chargers into motorway service stations and other strategically useful places, and there are Tesla chargers.
The disadvantage of this approach is that there isn't a proper standard, so you need to carry apps and ID cards for all the different networks you might want to use.
You can always find weird outlyer situations, but they don't prove a point.
Not outliers. Extremely long times for parts and service are a fact (acknowledged by Tesla themselves), much more expensive servicing is also a fact.
Insurance rates substantially above other cars in their class are a consequence of those two issues above.
I have also acknowledged that parts are hard to come by and repairs are expensive, for now, I've admitted there are infrastructure issues, I'm not sure why you keep harping on the same thing. Do those problems exist with other EVs....I don't know. Who does repair work of smart for 2's, who does repairs on a fisker or even a Kona, what does it cost....I don't know.
The insurance on my Model 3 was not expensive, I did have to shop around and switch insurance companies because the prices I was getting were all over the place. Insurance companies are still trying to figure out how to charge for them. They are expensive to repair, but they are also ranked as the safest cars on the road. All 5 star saftey ratings, even the SUV which is unheard of by the way because the batteries anchor it to the ground so it doesnt get tippy or roll over. Add in that it actively prevents accidents and you can see why some insurance companies like AAA (at least in PA) are giving very good rates on them not much more than I was paying safeco for my Mazda 3, and my Performance model 3 costr twice as much.
Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.
I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.
I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.
Frazzled wrote: Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.
I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.
I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.
Ok, maybe I wasn't clear, but since we were talking about EVs, I figured you knew I was taking about the EV Kona, because this discussion is about EVS. Sure Hyundai mechanics can be found anywhere, but EV Kona mechanics may not be easy to find. Body work is probably the same, but any mechanical features will be EV. The EV Kona was just released this year and last I heard only in certain California markets....that may have changed. I highly doubt every Hyundai dealership can repair the EV Kona.....but maybe they can, I was just throwing names out there.
Oh and its more expensive than a base Model 3. The EV Kona starts at $36,450, The Tesla model 3 starts at $35K, and is by all stats the better car and has a nation wide charging network.
Frazzled wrote: Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.
I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.
I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.
Sure Hyundai mechanics can be found anywhere, but EV Kona mechanics may not be easy to find. The EV Kona was just released this year and last I heard only in certain California markets....that may have changed. I highly doubt every Hyundai dealership can repair the EV Kona.....but maybe they can, I was just throwing names out there.
Oh and its more expensive than a base Model 3. The EV Kona starts at $35,450, The Tesla model 3 starts at $35K.
Despite what Tesla might want you to believe, electric cars are not any different to service than others. Nissan manages to have their Leafs up and running without any of the issues Tesla has. For quite a few years. Plus the Kona shares a lot of parts with their ICE equivalent model.
The Tesla might start at 35K (36,2 with destination fee) but that's without the advanced driver assistance, colour and interior choice etc the Kona comes standard with.
Tesla will only sell me a model 3 for almost 60K euro, though. The 35.000 Euro model is still a unicorn.
Frazzled wrote: Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.
I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.
I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.
Sure Hyundai mechanics can be found anywhere, but EV Kona mechanics may not be easy to find. The EV Kona was just released this year and last I heard only in certain California markets....that may have changed. I highly doubt every Hyundai dealership can repair the EV Kona.....but maybe they can, I was just throwing names out there.
Oh and its more expensive than a base Model 3. The EV Kona starts at $35,450, The Tesla model 3 starts at $35K, and is by all stats the better car and has a nation wide charging network.
Yes, most car distributors are able to service their own vehicles. Most standard auto places can service these vehicles. Even Tesla has two places in Austin to service vehicles. Mid range Tesla 3 is $45K per Car and Driver. Midrange Prius is $30K (Austin). Midrange Leaf is about $33K (Austin).
EDIT: Again, these other vehicles are starting to slip into a half decent price range. Give me a self driving vehicle for $20K the size of a Rogue and you just made my wife's next vehicle.
Frazzled wrote: Kona is a Hyundai. Mechanics who will work on a Hyundai are ubiquitous. Get real. Same for Nissans and Toyotas.
I have no problems with Tesla, but your relentless fanboyism is getting really tedious, on a thread that is not about Teslas but about electric cars in general.
I'd rather talk about the Kona frankly. Thats a real car not a rich man's car.
Sure Hyundai mechanics can be found anywhere, but EV Kona mechanics may not be easy to find. The EV Kona was just released this year and last I heard only in certain California markets....that may have changed. I highly doubt every Hyundai dealership can repair the EV Kona.....but maybe they can, I was just throwing names out there.
Oh and its more expensive than a base Model 3. The EV Kona starts at $35,450, The Tesla model 3 starts at $35K.
Despite what Tesla might want you to believe, electric cars are not any different to service than others. Nissan manages to have their Leafs up and running without any of the issues Tesla has. For quite a few years. Plus the Kona shares a lot of parts with their ICE equivalent model.
The Tesla might start at 35K (36,2 with destination fee) but that's without the advanced driver assistance, colour and interior choice etc the Kona comes standard with.
Tesla will only sell me a model 3 for almost 60K euro, though. The 35.000 Euro model is still a unicorn.
Ummm, no, If you get hit and the battery or electric motor get damaged, you need special mechanics. The 35K model 3 comes with same safety features as the Kona, Kona does not even offer self drive or auto pilot of any kind. Kona is also going to have a destination fee and has less horsepower. Its a far inferior car with an inferior charging network....do they even have one?
OK Bro, the Tesla 3 is the greatest car evah! Its almost as good as a Ducatti (ok thats just a lie). Anyone who buys a different car is clearly mentally deranged. We get it. Can we talk about the topic now?
Frazzled wrote: OK Bro, the Tesla 3 is the greatest car evah! Its almost as good as a Ducatti (ok thats just a lie). Anyone who buys a different car is clearly mentally deranged. We get it. Can we talk about the topic now?
Hey, Im just responding to your posts, you don't need to put words in my mouth. But I do think its a great car. IF you don't want to talk there are thousands of other topics to choose from on dakka. Don't be sad just because you are wrong.
Frazzled wrote: OK Bro, the Tesla 3 is the greatest car evah! Its almost as good as a Ducatti (ok thats just a lie). Anyone who buys a different car is clearly mentally deranged. We get it. Can we talk about the topic now?
Hey, Im just responding to your posts, you don't need to put words in my mouth. But I do think its a great car. IF you don't want to talk there are thousands of other topics to choose from on dakka. Don't be sad just because you are wrong.
The thread is about electric cars. Its not about the Tesla 3. Also, not wrong about anything posted yet. So nanny nanny boo boo!
Tesla frowns on having anyone else work on their cars I think just because they want to be the Apple of EVs. Anyone can work on them, you just void your warranty I think. But I've seen a few youtube videos of people buying salvaged teslas to rebuild them or learn how they work, or take the innards out and stick some other car's body on top. There's lots of folks making old cards into EVs, which I think is kinda cool. Here's one
I saw some videos on the Kona, that one doesn't really interest me much.. there's a Kia one also. I think I'd rather go for Tesla or wait and see what VW's new EVs will be like. Tesla might have gotten a good head start but next 5 years or so I think there's gonna be a lot more competition for them.
I might see if I can get out to test drive a model 3 this weekend.
Necros wrote: Tesla frowns on having anyone else work on their cars I think just because they want to be the Apple of EVs. Anyone can work on them, you just void your warranty I think. But I've seen a few youtube videos of people buying salvaged teslas to rebuild them or learn how they work, or take the innards out and stick some other car's body on top. There's lots of folks making old cards into EVs, which I think is kinda cool. Here's one
I saw some videos on the Kona, that one doesn't really interest me much.. there's a Kia one also. I think I'd rather go for Tesla or wait and see what VW's new EVs will be like. Tesla might have gotten a good head start but next 5 years or so I think there's gonna be a lot more competition for them.
I might see if I can get out to test drive a model 3 this weekend.
I love that conversion. It needs to be chopped like a chort with flames though.
Frazzled wrote: OK Bro, the Tesla 3 is the greatest car evah! Its almost as good as a Ducatti (ok thats just a lie). Anyone who buys a different car is clearly mentally deranged. We get it. Can we talk about the topic now?
Hey, Im just responding to your posts, you don't need to put words in my mouth. But I do think its a great car. IF you don't want to talk there are thousands of other topics to choose from on dakka. Don't be sad just because you are wrong.
I think on this note we can officially rename the thread "Andrew1975 shills for Tesla", and perhaps someone else can start a new thread were we can discuss EV's OTHER than Teslas.
Frazzled wrote: OK Bro, the Tesla 3 is the greatest car evah! Its almost as good as a Ducatti (ok thats just a lie). Anyone who buys a different car is clearly mentally deranged. We get it. Can we talk about the topic now?
Hey, Im just responding to your posts, you don't need to put words in my mouth. But I do think its a great car. IF you don't want to talk there are thousands of other topics to choose from on dakka. Don't be sad just because you are wrong.
The thread is about electric cars. Its not about the Tesla 3. Also, not wrong about anything posted yet. So nanny nanny boo boo!
You were wrong about the Kona being cheaper weren't you? Also it coming with any kind of self drive.......yep. I mean you did say "thats a real car and not a rich mans car."which to me makes it sound like you thought it was cheaper.
I've discussed a lot of different EV's also. Many of you just had misconceptions about EV's and Teslas. I'm just answering questions and setting records straight. From them being worse for the environment, to haveing crappy performance, range, lack of charging.....I mean many of you had no idea how far EVs have come. If that makes you sad....I don't know what to tell you.
Frazzled wrote: OK Bro, the Tesla 3 is the greatest car evah! Its almost as good as a Ducatti (ok thats just a lie). Anyone who buys a different car is clearly mentally deranged. We get it. Can we talk about the topic now?
Hey, Im just responding to your posts, you don't need to put words in my mouth. But I do think its a great car. IF you don't want to talk there are thousands of other topics to choose from on dakka. Don't be sad just because you are wrong.
I think on this note we can officially rename the thread "Andrew1975 shills for Tesla", and perhaps someone else can start a new thread were we can discuss EV's OTHER than Teslas.
Says the guy who thought battery degradation in EVS was a major problem. It isn't. And couldn't find a charging station, its called google learn to use it. I' mean you've tried to throw out every garbage argument that there is.....and they were garbage.
And yes, dollar for dollar I THINK its the best new car you can buy right now...which is why I bought one. I did a lot of research, like I said I had my mind set on a new mazda 3, but the Tesla just made more sense.
Ummm, no, If you get hit and the battery or electric motor get damaged, you need special mechanics. The 35K model 3 comes with same safety features as the Kona, Kona does not even offer self drive or auto pilot of any kind. Kona is also going to have a destination fee and has less horsepower. Its a far inferior car with an inferior charging network....do they even have one?
If you want to talk about availabity the Kona is only available in CA.
Stop digging please. If a car, electric or otherwise, has a battery or motor problem the battery/motor gets replaced. Period. That's how auto repair has been working for the last few decades:
Plug the car to the diagnose machine, the machine tells you what to replace and you replace it.
Any half-decent mechanic (and a lot of not even decent ones) can do what, and service technicians nowadays do just that: remove broken piece, put a new one.
The only problem for Tesla is they don't have enough technicians and enough parts to service the cars they had on the road at the beginning of 2018, nevermind nowadays.
A big, expensive, battery pack MIGHT get repaired (by someone else, not at the service) but they'll still put your car a new one and keep the refurbished one for the secondary market.
Wow, some pretty extreme fanboyism going on here! Obviously there are geographical differences, both in terms of expected price for cars and what purpose those cars are turned to. The US is generally cheaper and, in general, cars usually have to do more than just drive around in city traffic, which changes customer expectations.
As luck would have it, I'm in the market for a new car in the UK. We're on a bit of a budget due to a new house and wanting to have kids in the near future so we're looking for a balance of long-term economy and purchase price. It's no good having an EV that's really cheap to run if the price is out of our budget in the first place. And that's the biggest problem in the UK (and I assume the rest of Europe) at the moment. Manufacturers are adding anywhere from £4k to £10k for electric versions of their standard cars. That's a significant extra outlay which is pushing most electric cars out of our price range even when the corresponding ICE version is often well within our reach.
Tesla's much-vaunted Model 3 isn't even available yet and the price hasn't even been announced, though it seems from my research that the advertised $35k price is a bit of a misnomer in the first place, with some cars going up to almost $60k once you add on all the extras. Tesla are likely to run the same roll-out model in the UK where all their initial sales will be of much higher-priced Model 3s with all the extras added on, so actually being able to walk into a dealer and buy a Model 3 is probably over a year away in the UK. The charging infrastructure in my part of the country is also, quite frankly, laughable. It may be great in the US, but it's actually pretty bad outside of the south of the UK and particularly in Scotland, where I am. There are a grand total of 6 charging locations and none at all in Glasgow, which is our biggest city. Combine that with a lack of mechanics to service your car and the Tesla is basically a complete non-starter even if we could afford it. It would make much more sense to go with something like an electric VW Golf, which is a touch cheaper than the projected base price of a Model 3 and already has a servicing infrastructure in place.
Speaking of servicing, as we've been looking at cars we've been asking dealers whether there are any servicing issues with electrics or hybrids compared to normal cars and every single manufacturer has said no. We've also verified that through phoning the service centres directly rather than relying on the dealers themselves and they've all said the same thing.
We're still considering stretching to get an EV but at the moment Tesla is the least practical of all the EVs on sale, even if a Model 3 were available, which it isn't and won't be for quite a while. We're actually leaning more towards a hybrid right now, in the hope that in 3-5 years the electric technology will have matured and a lot of the infrastructure issues will have been sorted out.
Also, as the poster above alludes to, whilst Tesla may well offer rapid charging in the US, it isn't common over here so whilst you can in theory charge a car in half an hour or so, the reality is that if you pull into a services off the motorway in the UK and plug in to charge, you are looking more in the realms of 3 or 4 hours to charge and that is more than most people want to add on to the length of a journey.
The other day I had to travel from my home in Shropshire to Plymouth for work, a distance of just over 200 miles or so. I did it in one go and it took me a shade over 3 hours I think. I wouldn't have liked to have factored in an additional 2/3/4 hours sitting in a service station, drinking coffee and twiddling my thumbs. My wife, however, only uses her car for short hops, dropping kids off at school etc so an electric car would be perfect for her, assuming she is able to reliably charge it overnight. We are looking at getting a BMW i3 next time we change her car.
Slipspace wrote: Manufacturers are adding anywhere from £4k to £10k for electric versions of their standard cars.
Or even more, I test drove a Hyundai Ioniq last summer and the price gap between hybrid and electric was €10k, if went to the equivalent petrol/diesel model (i40) there was an extra 5-6k on top.
I also test drove a Leaf, and an equivalent petrol Pulsar was over 17K cheaper.
The Kona? something like 15K extra, especially because they were willing to discount more on ICE than on the electric.
15K is the wife's petrol bill for over 10 years. Without any tax help (which tend to last just 2-3 months around here) electrics don't make any financial sense.
We were ready and willing to take the electric route, but in the end bought an ICE model. We'll see in a few years' time.
The Tesla 3 started at €58K and started deliveries at an unspecified date in early 2019, so it was out of the question.
Slipspace wrote: Manufacturers are adding anywhere from £4k to £10k for electric versions of their standard cars.
Or even more, I test drove a Hyundai Ioniq last summer and the price gap between hybrid and electric was €10k, if went to the equivalent petrol/diesel model (i40) there was an extra 5-6k on top.
I also test drove a Leaf, and an equivalent petrol Pulsar was over 17K cheaper.
The Kona? something like 15K extra, especially because they were willing to discount more on ICE than on the electric.
15K is the wife's petrol bill for over 10 years. Without any tax help (which tend to last just 2-3 months around here) electrics don't make any financial sense.
We were ready and willing to take the electric route, but in the end bought an ICE model. We'll see in a few years' time.
The Tesla 3 started at €58K and started deliveries at an unspecified date in early 2019, so it was out of the question.
It's great to hear the experiences of folks shopping by economics. I don't care what I drive, really, and from the numbers in this thread (and the research I did as a result) it looked like it would currently take about 10 years to hit the break even point. And that's just not a realistic expectation for a car to last. I'm very excited about the new technology, don't get me wrong- it just isn't in the budget range yet.
IIRC, there are issues with dealers servicing electric cars, in that you need different training and tools for working on the electrics. However, the big dealers will have that in hand; it's only if you end up going to the local garage in a railway arch that you'll have a problem.
AndrewGPaul wrote: IIRC, there are issues with dealers servicing electric cars, in that you need different training and tools for working on the electrics. However, the big dealers will have that in hand; it's only if you end up going to the local garage in a railway arch that you'll have a problem.
That lines up with what I have discovered. Servicing by a manufacturer-approved garage is pretty much the same regardless of whether you have a ICE, hybrid or EV, but the little guy running a family mechanic business may not be able to deal with it as easily. What this means in practical terms is that if you buy, for example, a VW electric you get the same service from their own service centres as if you'd bought any type of VW. The same applied to Ford, Toyota, etc.
The problem with Tesla is twofold. Firstly, they don't actually have many service centres in the first place. That means the offer of a courtesy car might not mean much of the service centre is 150 miles away. Secondly, there seems to be a supply and skills shortage in some areas.
There's nothing stopping independents servicing electrics - the tools and training is freely available, I think. It just costs money, and at the moment, there's no real reason for them to make that outlay.
I think for many people EV's aren't the best option just yet, but I think that will change over the next few years as more options become available, and there's more competition to hopefully drive prices down a bit.. and will need some time for more charging stations to go up and also get upgraded to be faster.
Depending on where you are they could be good for road trips, but seems the best use is for daily commuting in urban and suburban areas. I was checking out the chevy bolt online and was surprised to see it over $41k when you add in all the options. Where the tesla model 3 standard range + I was looking at comes in more like $38k, and it has even better tech inside. Of course the tesla gets super expensive real fast when you start adding in extras, hell even paint costs at least $1500 more if you want anything besides black. So I think at the low end versions, right now a Model 3 is your best bang for your buck compared to the other EVs that are similar prices.
A lot of this is chicken and the egg type arguments. Teslas and other EVs may not work great where you live yet. The poster is in the US where the infrastructure has been building longer, it will get there, just like service and repairs will get there.
The model 3 can get expensive for sure, there is a lot of addon you can do, bigger battery, extra motor, performance up grade...you can almost double the price because the car was designed to be modular, but id still put them up against any car in their respective price ranges. Even the $35k isnt a cheap car, but its actually less than the average paid for new cars in the US in 2018. A base model 3 is still doing 0-60 in 5.1 seconds, which is pretty impressive. If you are looking for a sub 35K car then no its not for you. You'll have to wait until the tech gets cheaper, just like there were not super cheap automobiles when they first came out (even the model T was $850 when it came out, at the time your average worker made $400 dollars a year, eventually the price did drop to $350) but as adaption and tech progress they will get cheaper.
You can't compare a base model 3 to a Honda Civic. But lets look at other cars in the price range
2019 Acura TLX.
2019 Alfa Romeo Giulia. ...
2019 Audi A3. ...
2019 BMW 230i. ...
2019 Genesis G70. ...
2019 Jaguar XE. ...
2019 Lexus IS 300. ...
2019 Lincoln MKZ.
I'd take the Tesla, it beats all of their 0-60 times, is going to have less maintenance and cheaper fueling costs...but then I'm a performance guy.
Most if not all of the EVS are much more expensive than their ICE version, this is true, but in general you get better performance numbers, much less maintenance and upkeep...close to 0 in some instances, significant fuel savings, the convenience of waking up every morning to a fully fueled car and not having to go to gas stations. With thousands of less moving parts to break, you may be looking at a car you can drive reliably until the body falls apart, that could save you two maybe three car purchases down the road. In my opinion its worth it, but opinions may vary.
It is a newly rediscovered technology (one of the first cars ever built was electric) and the infrastructure and mastery of the technology is growing. Globally for many people it doesn't make sense yet, but in most parts of the US it does and thats going to be the model for the rest in the coming future.
The big change will be when we see more and more other large vehicles going electric, trucks and airplanes are next. Who knows when the military will switch.
As far as reliability. Ford has been making the f-150 forever. They had a recall of over a million cars because the transmission would mess up and had caused a bunch of accidents, so people took their trucks in for recalls, guess what happened? Now those trucks they fixed are CATCHING ON FIRE!
The big change will be when we see more and more other large vehicles going electric, trucks and airplanes are next. Who knows when the military will switch.
Indeed. I wonder what the limitations are now with larger vehicles - I am thinking 1) crossover SUVs; 2) mini vans; 3) commercial sized vans and commercial sized pickup trucks.
Query - what happens with the batteries and what keeps the bateries from getting weak over time? Car batteries get untrustworthy after about 2-3 years. Are these batteries different?
I know Tesla has a semi truck they are working on, but I think the range is only 500 miles, and is meant more for like fedex trucks going warehouse to warehouse and recharging while they unload and reload, rather than cross country stuff. They also have a pickup truck they haven't revealed yet. Also another company Rivan or something like that is doing trucks but also a couple years away. And I read somewhere that Ford has an EV F-150 coming soon so I'm curious to see what that will be like. Apparently there's a rumor going around where UPS trucks will be upgrading to Tesla guts soon too.
I don't know much about how batteries work but I think the lithium batteries that EV use were supposed to suck after a few years, but turns out do not and are lasting for a decade now with very little degradation or power loss. But I think it also depends on how well you take care of it, like you're not supposed to charge to 100% unless you really need it for a road trip, and also don't drain it.. keeping it between like 15% and 85% charge all the time is the key to making it last longer. Don't know how or why that is though.
So that's another thing.. if your max range is 300 miles, but you're only charging to 80% max, that means your effective range is more like 250 miles or so. But that's probably not an issue if it's a daily driver that you charge up at home after work every day
One other trick I saw that seemed like a cool way to save on your engery costs is you can set a timer to have your car only charge late at night in off peak hours when the electric is cheaper.
The big change will be when we see more and more other large vehicles going electric, trucks and airplanes are next. Who knows when the military will switch.
Indeed. I wonder what the limitations are now with larger vehicles - I am thinking 1) crossover SUVs; 2) mini vans; 3) commercial sized vans and commercial sized pickup trucks.
Query - what happens with the batteries and what keeps the bateries from getting weak over time? Car batteries get untrustworthy after about 2-3 years. Are these batteries different?
Battery conditioning and management has massively increased their longevity. Basically the battery in your car is just a battery and has no management system because its a small part of the car. Also I think most car batteries are pretty old school and not Lithium Ion. EV batteries have a very sophisticated management and cooling system to keep them tip top.
I think the bigger question is how are Teslas motors rated at 1 million miles. Thats a hell of a lot of longevity (sorry don't know what other EV manufactures rate their motors at). Do you know how many electric starter motors or alternators (electric motor just reversed) I've had to replace in my life? Or window and mirror motors?
There are a lot of companies working on SUVs and pick up trucks. Tesla and another Chinese EV company (BYD) are already making Semis, The Chinese one is already on the market, while Tesala is still in testing and using them to deliver their own cars...but it is not in large scale production yet. I think for Europe and other countries the larger vans and smaller box trucks would be killers. Realistically commercial auto is where most of the pollution comes from. Could giant marine cargo ships be a possibility down the road? I think if you can find a way to keep them dry maybe, Sea water is extremely corrosive.
Also many companies originally planned of battery swapping....but charging technology and battery longevity progressed so quickly that the idea was thrown away as unnecessary and expensive. Much like Tuckers engine swapping idea....its just too complex and for EVS technology made it unnecessary.
The big change will be when we see more and more other large vehicles going electric, trucks and airplanes are next. Who knows when the military will switch.
Indeed. I wonder what the limitations are now with larger vehicles - I am thinking 1) crossover SUVs; 2) mini vans; 3) commercial sized vans and commercial sized pickup trucks.
Query - what happens with the batteries and what keeps the bateries from getting weak over time? Car batteries get untrustworthy after about 2-3 years. Are these batteries different?
The batteries in electric cars are lithium batteries - like the batteries in your phone, rather than the traditional car or truck battery. They do lose performance over time, but I've heard (can't confirm, I'm afraid) that the performance drop-off isn't as bad as the manufacturers first feared. Some manufactuers were offering lease options, so when the battery dropped to a certain threshold it'd be replaced as part of the lease; Renault were one such, I think. That might affect the second-hand market, if the leases aren't transferrable. The main technology imporvements have been making the batteries more efficient, so a new battery of the same dimensions as an older one will give a longer range.
They can be swapped, but it's a garage job, as the batteries tend to be integrated quite closely into the body of the vehicle; it's not like lifting out a car battery, or even swapping an engine or transmission. There's talk of using batteries which are no use for autmotive applications any more in power generation or domestic applications - hook up a big bank of them to your house so you can charge them during cheap times and then use battery power rather than mains supply at peak times. Or use them to store energy from wind or solar power farms to smooth out the supply.
There's been an electric version of the London black cab developed, which seems like an ideal use for an electric vehicle - short runs in an urban environment, and charge it up between jobs at the rank - and Royal Mail have got a fleet of electric vans. Electric urban and suburban buses would also seem like a good idea - quieter, less vibration, less pollution, and they all go back to the depot at night, so they can be charged regularly.
The batteries in ICE cars are good old lead acid type. It's a Victorian era technology which is surprisingly good if you don't mind a heavy weight.
Milk floats and warehouse based fork lifts are good examples of electric vehicles using lead-acid, because their performance envelope doesn't require a light-weight, long-range power supply.
Of course in an ICE car the battery is a very small component, and lead acid is a perfectly good technology for that application.
The big change will be when we see more and more other large vehicles going electric, trucks and airplanes are next. Who knows when the military will switch.
Indeed. I wonder what the limitations are now with larger vehicles - I am thinking 1) crossover SUVs; 2) mini vans; 3) commercial sized vans and commercial sized pickup trucks.
Query - what happens with the batteries and what keeps the bateries from getting weak over time? Car batteries get untrustworthy after about 2-3 years. Are these batteries different?
The batteries in electric cars are lithium batteries - like the batteries in your phone, rather than the traditional car or truck battery. They do lose performance over time, but I've heard (can't confirm, I'm afraid) that the performance drop-off isn't as bad as the manufacturers first feared. Some manufactuers were offering lease options, so when the battery dropped to a certain threshold it'd be replaced as part of the lease; Renault were one such, I think. That might affect the second-hand market, if the leases aren't transferrable. The main technology imporvements have been making the batteries more efficient, so a new battery of the same dimensions as an older one will give a longer range.
They can be swapped, but it's a garage job, as the batteries tend to be integrated quite closely into the body of the vehicle; it's not like lifting out a car battery, or even swapping an engine or transmission. There's talk of using batteries which are no use for autmotive applications any more in power generation or domestic applications - hook up a big bank of them to your house so you can charge them during cheap times and then use battery power rather than mains supply at peak times. Or use them to store energy from wind or solar power farms to smooth out the supply.
There's been an electric version of the London black cab developed, which seems like an ideal use for an electric vehicle - short runs in an urban environment, and charge it up between jobs at the rank - and Royal Mail have got a fleet of electric vans. Electric urban and suburban buses would also seem like a good idea - quieter, less vibration, less pollution, and they all go back to the depot at night, so they can be charged regularly.
Very informative! What happens if the batteries die early? We've all had phones and computers were the batteries died early in the life cycle. Do these companies have a battery warranty?
Just to toss this in here I believe electric cars should be made around the idea of minimal environmental impact. Make them from recycled material and or based on the idea of maximum recycling. Batteries, engines, bodies electronics etc. should all be "green".
Techpriestsupport wrote: Just to toss this in here I believe electric cars should be made around the idea of minimal environmental impact. Make them from recycled material and or based on the idea of maximum recycling. Batteries, engines, bodies electronics etc. should all be "green".
If thats your feeling, why should it only be for EVs? Why not all cars, or products in general? I feel like EVs have enough hurtles to jump through already. I mean look at all the misconception about them already, if they are marketed as made out of recycled products, people may perceive them as low quality.
Now chances are that the steel and aluminum bodies that make up most of a car are made of or contain recycled material. There is actually no difference between recycled steel and aluminum vs virgin steel and aluminum, chemically its the same. So it could be. As a marketing tool though im not sure if it would be helpful or harmful.
forgot use have different vehicles whoops. 
