First up, no spoilers from me, as I’ve studiously avoided them all so far. I’d rather watch each episode as it comes, and witness the twists, turns and surprises as they occur.
But that doesn’t mean we can’t speculate! And I’ll kick us off.
I don’t think anyone is going to win The Iron Throne. Rather, I fear Westeros is already lost. Not only are forces hopelessly divided and denuded following years of internecine conflict, but they’re fighting The Undead. So every loss only adds to the foe’s might. The best chance is to take them on as a cohesive whole, in one massive battle. So instead, I can see Daneyrs and Jurn Snurr potentially returning to Essos to rule there instead.
Or? The Night King is dealt with in relatively short order. After all, he has one Dragon. Dany has two. And he’s kinda lynchpin to the Undead, in the greatest of Undead traditions. Take him out, and who knows what havoc that’d wreak on his forces? Get in quick enough (likely around Winterfell, given jog’rphy), and there’s a real potential the Undead threat is stopped right there and then.
I also really cannot see Cersei making it through this. She’s alienated everyone. Even her brother. I suspect she may lose the child she’s carrying - and that will finally drive her full on tonto over the edge hatstand frying pan. And I’m fairly sure Magy’s prophecy does not relate to Tyrion. We discovered in Season 7 that High Valyrian’s word for Prince is gender neutral. Mayhap it’s the same for siblings? Either way, there’s a lot of younger brothers that’d quite happily choke the life from her (including Jurn Snurr/Aegon Targaryen).
It’s really difficult to call. Not only are there lots of irons in the fire (and ice. Teehee) but the show is known for bucking predictability!
Right, what are your predictions? If any are based on spoilers for the coming season, I’m sure I don’t need to tell you to use Spoiler Tags. But I just did. There. Did you see?
I really do think that the Undead get dealt with in the first half of the final season, and then the second half is the survivors battling it out until someone is left in charge in the Iron Throne.
And that someone might very well be no one we expect to be there.
And weren't there rumors of 'an even bigger threat' getting kicked about a while back?
I honestly don’t know. So studious in avoiding all spoilers have I been, Ive even scarpered at the merest mention of a rumour!
Golden Company? I really don’t think they’re gonna work out for Cersei. Indeed, one suspects Daario Naharis, left in Mereen (I’m sure it was in Mereen) still has a role to play. I’d piss myself if he’s arranged for The Second Sons to take the place of the Golden Company. Mercenaries......attack! No! Not meeeeeeeeee!
I was hugely disapointed they are making Cersei a obvious villian - far more interesting to have a be a vital part of the defeat of the dead and then get betrayed herself.
Agreed - I really hope the dead are defeated quickly and we look at the more brutal human world.
What I want: The Dead are destroyed, the following die: Jon Snow, Cersei (see above), fat Sam,
Dany, her dragons and Tyrion rule the seven kingdoms.
What I think will happen Everything will hinge on some nonsense that Sam unvcovers and bloody Jon Snow will end up being king, everyone else of any worth (Dany, Sansa, Missandre, Grey worm etc) having sacrifced themsleves for him and won his battles for him (as always)
I'm predicting they are setting up Cersi as the big villain, but she will do a complete 180 and save the day all the sudden and be like "i have returned to you at the turn of the tide" gandalf style. Then hopefully get eaten by an undead giant right after.
Jon Snow and Daenerys share the throne (which is a shame as they are the two most insufferable characters going).
Sansa is warden of the north, married to Tyrion (she's come a long way and my favourite at the moment).
Jamie kills Cersi. Either he or Brienne get killed, but we have to put up with some uncomfortable will-they-won't-they emotional connection stuff first.
Didnt she have three children already? Geoffry, Tommen and the girl?
And I feel as if killing her in childbirth is a bit of a copout, she has been destroying westoros from the beggining, this entire chain of events started with her.
My speculation is that after the war with the undead the kingdoms are left is disarray and all fighting amongst themselves, creating the same situation from what happened before all of westoros was captured. The North will gain the territory north of the wall and become a powerhouse.
Both her and the child could die. Bonus karma points if the baby is a dwarf. Only see it playing out if they give her a somewhat redemptive storyline. If she stays the Mad Queen it will probably fall to Jaime yet again.
Yes. They mentioned several times in the books that Jaime is younger by a few minutes.
My guesses:
Bran becomes the Night King via time travel shenanigans
Sam kills him, because Sam is Azor Ahai
The Hound kills the Mountain but is mortally wounded
Jaime kills Cersei but dies himself at some point later
I don't see a happy ending for Jon Snow and Daenerys. If that is what happened, it would be a pretty big letdown after the whole thrust of the show being about subverting tropes. I think they both die somehow but I can't really guess how.
Bronn, Tyrion, Brienne, Pod, and Arya are too popular to kill and I bet they make it. I'm not so sure about Gendry.
The ending I'd like to see would be the Night King wins, sits on the Iron Throne, and permanent winter, forever.
hotsauceman1 wrote: And I feel as if killing her in childbirth is a bit of a copout, she has been destroying westoros from the beggining, this entire chain of events started with her.
Hardly. In some ways Cersei is a victim of circumstance as much as anyone. Petyr Baelish is who started it all - by killing Jon Arryn and framing the Lannisters for it the letter to Catlyn and the attempt on Bran's life. While Cersei did some monstrous things later, you should reconsider her actions the beginning of the show while she was being accused of things she did not do.
I have a theory that Cersei's baby is actually already dead....
There's a scene where Qyburn comes in for Cersei's "treatment" which I think is related to the baby.
I think he is using the same forbidden knowledge that he used to resurrect the mountain.
I don't know where or why I came up with this theory, and I'm not saying Cersei's somehow bringing back her dead children, but I think maybe the baby died in the womb and Qybur has somehow kept it "alive" because Cersei is a bit unhinged about losing her other children.
I think this somehow also gives her some sort of connection to the undead via Qyburn and that once Jaime finds out how far gone Cersei is he will kill her, if her baby doesn't kill her first.
Anyway, that's my bonkers theory out there in the open, lol..
Ouze wrote: Bran becomes the Night King via time travel shenanigans
I really, really, really hope this doesn't happen. Like, at all.
I don't see a happy ending for Jon Snow and Daenerys. If that is what happened, it would be a pretty big letdown after the whole thrust of the show being about subverting tropes. I think they both die somehow but I can't really guess how.
Yeah, I don't see Daenerys making it out of the story alive. Jon I think is a little more of a tossup.
Bronn, Tyrion, Brienne, Pod, and Arya are too popular to kill and I bet they make it. I'm not so sure about Gendry.
Ayra dies and dies in the first half of the season. The others have a good chance of making it though.
The ending I'd like to see would be the Night King wins, sits on the Iron Throne, and permanent winter, forever.
The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
There have always been plenty of dotted lines between Jon, Bran, Benjen, the Night's Watch, and the Night King. Thing is, GRRM works countless dotted lines into the text. And the showrunners elevated the Night King to give the show its Darth Vader. He's only mentioned in a story in the books, and although it *could* be meaningful or foreshadowing, it could easily be a red herring. I dunno how much GRRM's vision even matters anymore, though.
Based on what we saw from the showrunners last season, I expect a fairly straightforward resolution, with 'good' guys mostly triumphing over 'bad' guys, and BIG! STUFF! HAPPENING! to keep the masses happy. Past performance doesn't predict future results with investing, but it should be strongly considered with most other disciplines. I don't expect much subtlety, (intelligent) scheming, or many interesting twists with GRRM not involved and the big twist (Jon's parentage) already mostly resolved. *shrug*
Alpharius wrote: I remember GRRM saying that, but since GRRM will never actually finish the series, we'll be left with what the TV series tells us!
Oh, he'll never finish it. He took his eye off the ball and wrote himself into a Gordian knot that he can't untangle. The showrunners pulled an Alexander and clove it in two by introducing teleportation, 'splosions, weird pacing shifts, and other randomness. It's highly possible that the showrunners' ending won't be the ending that GRRM told them about. For instance, I'm not sure that Daenerys would have survived in the books, but the (much different) show version probably will.
Alpharius wrote: ...while a Journey song plays over the credits?
Don't forget Arya trying to park a horse for 5 minutes.
gorgon wrote: [Oh, he'll never finish it. He took his eye off the ball and wrote himself into a Gordian knot that he can't untangle.
I agree with the latter but disagree with the latter. I think he did indeed paint himself into a corner, but I think he's going to finish the books eventually, assuming he doesn't die. He simply is going to wait to see how what the showrunners do is received and then tweak that as needed.
So far as the show, seeing a "happy" ending (or maybe we should say a traditional one?) where either Jon or Dany takes the Iron Throne and all of the well-loved heroes survive would be kind of a copout, I think.
I agree a formal happy ending would be a cop out. But then, so would 'and no-one wins, goodnight'.
It has to be bittersweet. It has to be at least a wee bit controversial, without being at all contrived.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ooooooooh.
A Greyjoy Theon Theory...
Last we saw of old Nonads, he was off to rescue his sister from the clutches of his Uncle.
And the last we heard of his Uncle, he was nipping over the sea to Essos to recruit The Golden Company.
My prediction? Theon manages to free Yara, possibly losing his life in the process. Uncle bites the dust whilst still at sea. Leaving Theon/Yara in command of the Ironborn fleet, which just happens to be packed to the gunnels with Mercenaries, paid for by Cersei.
And I fully expect them to then take The Golden Company to fight for Dany. After all, they've already been paid.....
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: My prediction? Theon manages to free Yara, possibly losing his life in the process. Uncle bites the dust whilst still at sea. Leaving Theon/Yara in command of the Ironborn fleet, which just happens to be packed to the gunnels with Mercenaries, paid for by Cersei.
And I fully expect them to then take The Golden Company to fight for Dany. After all, they've already been paid.....
OOh I like that idea. Golden Company shows up, Cersie gets all smug, then suddenly at their head is Yara!
Could even echo Tywin's sacking of Kings Landing. Open the gates my King, we're here (shut up Dave) to relieve (Dave, stop tittering, you'll give the game away!) the city!
OF ALL IT'S VALUABLE BLARG GRIBBLE RAVAGE BLEEP PLUNDER!
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
Alpharius wrote: Because it sounds cool? Just wondered if there was something I had missed in the book?
Plus, possibly a necessity in GoT land to keep winter in check?
I thought they did the opposite and brought Deep Winter - the Ice in the Song and the Dragons have been awoken to counter them / balance them as two elemental forces.
Maybe the moon will open and the rest of the Dragons emerge.
Not sure if there has been stated anything the Night King wants - or if they are like Nagash and want everything to die.
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
I was just referring to the infamous line in Wrath of the Lich King for WoW, where Terenas said "There must always be a Lich King" after he dies since they brought up Arthas earlier. I don't expect that to be the case though for this coming season's GoT. I'm in the camp of "first half of season vs Night King, 2nd half against Cersei".
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
I was just referring to the infamous line in Wrath of the Lich King for WoW, where Terenas said "There must always be a Lich King" after he dies since they brought up Arthas earlier. I don't expect that to be the case though for this coming season's GoT. I'm in the camp of "first half of season vs Night King, 2nd half against Cersei".
Ah right - I only played WoW for a few hours and got bored so didn;t get it
I'd be happy with that - as long as the right people live and die
LunarSol wrote: The Night King is defeated but without him the undead run unchecked. Jon takes the title of Night King and keeps the undead threat contained to the north.
I was just referring to the infamous line in Wrath of the Lich King for WoW, where Terenas said "There must always be a Lich King" after he dies since they brought up Arthas earlier. I don't expect that to be the case though for this coming season's GoT. I'm in the camp of "first half of season vs Night King, 2nd half against Cersei".
Ah right - I only played WoW for a few hours and got bored so didn;t get it
I'd be happy with that - as long as the right people live and die
Agreed. I think the main thing is that certain conflicts need to be resolved. I.e. CLEGANEBOWL, (assuming the Hound survives the North, he comes back to confront his brother), Cersei dying by Jaime, etc. With only so many episodes this season its really not the time for sudden plot twists and surprises, more in the proper delivery in wrapping up the plotlines before the show ends. And we know GRR Martin is just using this as a litmus test for whenever he bothers to try and finish off the book series anyways.
Alpharius wrote: Since Season 8 is only 6 episodes*, I think everything might feel rushed and possibly not really all that well thought out.
*Ep 1 is 54 minutes long
Ep 2 is 58 minutes long
Ep 3 is 82 minutes long
Ep 4 is 78 minutes long
Ep 5 is 80 minutes long
Ep 6 is 80 minutes long
Maybe not after all?
I'm actually glad they took this route, because then the pacing won't be as restricted to the previous timeslot of only one hour and certain scenes won't have to be cut to make it fit. Hopefully they'll take advantage of it to the fullest and we have less of the teleporting issues from the last season.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Are people really still going on about "teleportation"? Jesus...
I'm of two minds when it comes to teleporting:
On one hand, I appreciate that it circumvents a lot of the problems the series developed as it meandered through the part of the narrative that should have been handled with a time skip (IE, most of the last 2 books) and gets the plot going. It also is worth pointing out that its mostly done through ship travel and dragon flight, which has always been how certain characters (Little Finger and Varys) are able to move around pretty freely. It's really not so much an inconsistency as a matter of our protagonists generally not having access to affluential modes of travel. After all, even a the start of the series things moved from Winterfell to King's Landing rather quickly.
On the other hand, I also appreciate that much of the brilliance of the early story relies on the tension of things happening largely because the right person to stop them simply couldn't be there on time. The series loses a lot of its potential for surprises when you don't have 3-4 characters each starting up a plan or two without seeing how the others resolve first.
I have a certain dreadful feeling that whoever sits the Iron Throne at the end, surrounded by all the other characters bodies, will reach up and pull a scooby doo revealing Arya wearing the victors face as a mask.
dracpanzer wrote: I have a certain dreadful feeling that whoever sits the Iron Throne at the end, surrounded by all the other characters bodies, will reach up and pull a scooby doo revealing Arya wearing the victors face as a mask.
Hmm could be worse but wouldn't be my first choice - something that Arya might well do though.
Still salty over Stannis tbh. Will watch just to see the end. Hopefully The Hound has a good ending and that Jaime dies. Wouldn't mind Cersei being on the iron throne in the end.
dracpanzer wrote: I have a certain dreadful feeling that whoever sits the Iron Throne at the end, surrounded by all the other characters bodies, will reach up and pull a scooby doo revealing Arya wearing the victors face as a mask.
Hmm could be worse but wouldn't be my first choice - something that Arya might well do though.
I wouldn't be happy with it, but it seems like a George R.R. Martin thing to do...
Gael Knight wrote: Still salty over Stannis tbh. Will watch just to see the end. Hopefully The Hound has a good ending and that Jaime dies. Wouldn't mind Cersei being on the iron throne in the end.
I'm also unhappy about how Stannis wound up. Maybe I am biased from the books, but burning Shireen was not only genuinely out of character for Stannis, it did't make much sense from any kind of logical perspective. It felt like they betrayed a great character.
Maybe it will be one of those "aha, you thought he was dead, but she couldn't do it" things. Where he has been in the meantime would be a mystery. As would her reason for pulling the blow, but you still have hope. That would probably be even worse though, wouldn't it?
I think there is actually a good possibility of them stopping their subversion of classic tropes by there being a happy ending of sorts. The cast has finally grown some plot armor, enough that only the more minor characters are in danger. I think that Jon and Danerys will survive to rule over a shattered and broken land. Worst case though, Jon might die but Danerys will survive. Danerys is also most likely pregnant by now.
A prediction. I think Drogon and Rheagal will lay a clutch of eggs. I believe that scene with Dany and Jon walking up to the two of them in the snow is the reveal scene, with the eggs being in the pile of scorched remains and edited out for the teaser.
Death predictions.
Completely Safe: Dany, Arya, Sam, Tyrion.
Most likely safe, but could die: Jon, Sansa, Jamie.
Most likely going to die: Greyworm, Jora, Bran, the Hound. Greyworm, Jora, and Bran probably die during the siege of Winterfell. Greyworm and Jora in the battle itself to give us the requisite named character body count, while Bran 'dies' in some magical act of enabling Jon to strike the mortal blow to the Night King. Maybe involving time travel into the past to set future events in motion. The Hound probably ends up dying as well, possibly at the battle of Winterfell OR while fighting in Cleganebowl(which he will win but die of his injuries).
Definitely going to die: Cersie, the Mountain.
Unknown: Tormond and Brienne. I could see us losing Brienne, which will cause Tormund no small amount of grief. A reverse is also a possibility, with Brienne realizing she'd liked the hairy lug after he's dead. But I think there is a very strong possibility both of them survive and go on to have those "great big world conquering babies" Tormund wants.
I like the theory that the Night King gets stopped halfway through the show, and the rest of it is the mopping up of the whole mess.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Brienne killed stannis off camera, didn't she? I'm finding his death difficult to remember.
Yes, but a few episodes later Ramsey confirms to Roose Bolton that they found his corpse. Roose asks who landed the killing blow so they could reward them but Ramsay says no one knows.
Grey Templar wrote: I think there is actually a good possibility of them stopping their subversion of classic tropes by there being a happy ending of sorts. The cast has finally grown some plot armor, enough that only the more minor characters are in danger. I think that Jon and Danerys will survive to rule over a shattered and broken land. Worst case though, Jon might die but Danerys will survive. Danerys is also most likely pregnant by now.
A prediction. I think Drogon and Rheagal will lay a clutch of eggs. I believe that scene with Dany and Jon walking up to the two of them in the snow is the reveal scene, with the eggs being in the pile of scorched remains and edited out for the teaser.
Death predictions.
Completely Safe: Dany, Arya, Sam, Tyrion.
Most likely safe, but could die: Jon, Sansa, Jamie.
Most likely going to die: Greyworm, Jora, Bran, the Hound. Greyworm, Jora, and Bran probably die during the siege of Winterfell. Greyworm and Jora in the battle itself to give us the requisite named character body count, while Bran 'dies' in some magical act of enabling Jon to strike the mortal blow to the Night King. Maybe involving time travel into the past to set future events in motion. The Hound probably ends up dying as well, possibly at the battle of Winterfell OR while fighting in Cleganebowl(which he will win but die of his injuries).
Definitely going to die: Cersie, the Mountain.
Unknown: Tormond and Brienne. I could see us losing Brienne, which will cause Tormund no small amount of grief. A reverse is also a possibility, with Brienne realizing she'd liked the hairy lug after he's dead. But I think there is a very strong possibility both of them survive and go on to have those "great big world conquering babies" Tormund wants.
I like the theory that the Night King gets stopped halfway through the show, and the rest of it is the mopping up of the whole mess.
What subversion of tropes? - that was maybe true in the death of a what appeared to be main characters but not only did they therefore prove not to be main charcacters but nothing like it has happened since. There is lot of talk about subversion - but its a myth - same as Last Jedi. The main characters were always Jon and Dany, Tyrion and few others - none of them were every going to leave the books/show. I ma fine with that.
GRM's darlings - Arya, Sam etc have always had miles thick plot shields......The sickiening idea that sam will end up on the thone is increasingly likely - after all he seems to be GRM incarnate in the books.
I think you are correct about the dragon eggs, probably some metaphysical wierdness with Dany and Jon having sex.
The bleakness of GoT makes me feel that the ending will be that after what is built up to be the climatic final battle, the White Walkers win over Jon, the dragons and all the armies that allied against the undead.
As a coda, Cersei, Queen of King's Landing, and nothing else, looks out to see snow falling...
If Cersei dies and Jaime lives I'll be quite annoyed. If anything he has created the monster of his sister. Initiated an incestuous relationship, raped her. Perhaps Jon Snow kills Jaime. I'd be happy with that. Would round up his arc, and the scene in which Jaime mocks him in season one.
Yeah Stannis isn't coming back. Brienne confirms to Davos and Melisandre that she kills him.
Brienne is such a self righteous bint. Renly had no place claiming to be Roberts successor. It's somewhat satisfying that she gets no joy out of killing Stannis. He himself is beyond caring at that point.
There's is absolutely no way that the man who says the above (a few episodes before the act) would murder his own daughter so brutally. If they wanted to change things up they should have just had Stannis burn Melisandre at the stake instead. Even his wife, who is the most devoted to the cause and has a cold attitude toward her own daughter can't even stand to see her burned. Even the men standing there do nothing.
Gordon Shumway wrote: So Ramsey, an unreliable witness, to say the least, is the confirmation. Where was Bienenne seen next?
What is your reasoning to suspect that he was lying?
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Gael Knight wrote: If anything he has created the monster of his sister.
No. She was murdering little girls as a teenager and had felt attracted to him since basically birth. Cersei came out the hate mentally ill, as did Jamie. At absolute worse they fed off each other.
Don't white-wash Cersei's evil because she's female.
Well, Ramsey would have said anything to look good to his "dad"---political gain. If Brienne confirmed it though, I guess it's pretty well confirmed. I don't really care, Stannis was a gakker who got lulled into the false hope of religious fervor in order to benefit his own desires.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Well, Ramsey would have said anything to look good to his "dad"---political gain. If Brienne confirmed it though, I guess it's pretty well confirmed. I don't really care, Stannis was a gakker who got lulled into the false hope of religious fervor in order to benefit his own desires.
Ehhhhh. I think that if Ramsey was going to lie about finding Stannis's corpse he would have gone a step further and taken the credit, which would actually make him look good. Instead he just says he found the corpse.
Plus we know that if Ramsey had found Stannis alive, he would have tried to capture him so he could torture him. So I think he was probably genuinely disappointed that he was already dead, and thus had no motivation for lying.
Of course, this has made me realize how odd it was that Stannis was killed off-screen. A bit out of character for the show. It seems a little fishy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: No. She was murdering little girls as a teenager and had felt attracted to him since basically birth. Cersei came out the hate mentally ill, as did Jamie. At absolute worse they fed off each other.
Don't white-wash Cersei's evil because she's female.
Aye. She is irredeemable.
Jamie at the very least has had the decency to realize what a monster he was and is, and feels some amount of shame for it. Cersie just revels in her own evil.
Stannis is irrelevant - always had been - he is there as a plot device nothing more.
He gives Melissandre someone to use and therefore the audiance a link to the Lord of Fire - plus she is cool and sexy and thats a major selling point in the show. (*)
He saves Jon Snow from the Wildlings when he is about to loose his latest battle (he never wins any on his own- he is always saved by someone)
Thats all he is needed for, so they write him out.
Jamie and Cersei - they are equally bad at the beginning - in fact he is worse since she at least has had a terible marriagewith a drunken husband who abuses her - him - nothing bad ever happens to him until his hand is chopped off. At that point he does reasess his life a bit and tries a bti harder to not do stuff liek drop children off the side of a tower. Cersei has been driven insane by the death of her children and everything else she has done and had done to her.
(*) Have any of the more benign gods ever doen anything in the show or the books?
I don't really understand this evil-olympics between Cersei and Jamie, but Robert wasn't even abusive by his own personality. He was a drunk and a womanizer but he only ever got physical when she spazzed out on him. By the metric of the times she had as easy of a political marriage as one could hope for.
Why do people think Cersei has ever been anything under then pure, objective evil since basically day 1?
Should add I particularly enjoyed the opening credits. Really rather fun I felt.
Gap
Gap
Gap
Sorry. Have to do this, as the spoiler tags don't cover text when hovering a mouse on the mainpage. I've explained it poorly, but it's true!
Spoiler:
I do wonder if the Crpyt of Wintefell might empty itself, once The Night King shows up? Could prove pretty traumatic for all involved!
But speculation aside, I'm liking how they've remembered to include political tension. Sansa, Jurrn Snurr, even Sam Tarly all getting their moody on, as a result of revelations.
I like to think Jurrn is being the most practically minded. He is absolutely right - the North needed allies, and cannot afford to be sniffy about who they might be. Yet we cannot simply dismiss Sansa's concerns in return, because they're very real. Indeed, that nicely echoes the warning Dany got in Season 7 - that The North remembers, and she is a bit of a target, given her Father's excesses.
Only bit I feel landed a bit flat was Sam telling Jurrn about his true heritage. Nice that they just got on with that, sure. But for me the scene didn't quite click. Earnest Sam, and Jurrn looking as gormless as ever when he's not lapidating derriere. I'll be rewatching it again tonight on my big telly (watched on iPad on my way to work), so it might hold up better on a second viewing.
Most of them, including Ned; though he was just bones.
I could see them going that way, though there's no much payoff to be had. On the whole the wraiths haven't really shown to be much more than puppets. No sign their personality remains to play off of. It could be used as a means of shifting the battle in favor of the attackers at some point I guess, but doesn't seem like it would be as impactful as it could be if it was set up differently.
I didn't mind the slower pace. I think I just wish the dialogue was smarter, like how it used to be when they had GRRM's material to work with. Tyrion continues to seem about half as smart and engaging as he used to be. But it is what it is. *shrug* The scene between Jon and Daenerys at the waterfall was a nice callback to Jon and Ygritte in the cave though. Possibly some dark foreshadowing for Daenerys there.
I'll be interested to see what answers we get for some of the greater questions and mysteries in the story. Like the Stark crypts, for instance. There's certainly a lot of smoke surrounding them, and it'll be interesting to see if a fire and payoff are there.
Theorizing ahead...
Spoiler:
There are theories that Winterfell is a prison for the Great Other. That the castle marks where 'winter fell' and the Great Other was captured. It explains why the crypts are so cold despite the natural hot springs. It'd also explain some of the details regarding its construction.
On the other hand, some theorize that there are dragons (or at least their eggs) under Winterfell. This could obviously be a metaphorical reference to a Targaryen also.
Regardless, in the books Jon keeps having nightmares about the crypt, and it'll be interesting to see if there's a payoff for that in the show.
Oh...I still *hate* the performance for Euron. It's silly and stupid, and lowers the quality of the performances around him.
I keep waiting for Euron to do something interesting or surprising or clever, but we just keep getting Funny Accent not-Jack Sparrow Making Willy Jokes.
Cercei needs to stop bantering about killing him for being cheeky and just have the Mountain squish his head into his torso already.
Spoiler:
TBH at this point I'm beginning to suspect they're tee-ing up Sansa to take the Iron Throne. Khaleesi *really* doesn't like the fact the Northerners aren't dribbling on her sandals and giving her adoring nicknames, she could well end up going Full Targaryen.
My Totally Accurate But Probably Wrong prediction is: Arya dies saving Jon and killing the Night King, the rest are about to go south to deal with Cercei when Danny finds out about Jon's true parentage and goes mental, Jon is forced to fight her on dragonback and both they and both dragons die. Sansa does a big speech and takes over the armies, then they go south and Bronn helps Jamie get in to the palace and he kills Cercei with the crossbow.
Glad to see so many other people dislike Euron - the Greyjoys in general are losers, but Euron is the Hot Topic shopping, Ed Hardy wearing, Axe body spray-smelling Greyjoy.
Spoiler:
He's not even consistently written in the length of a single scene: he somehow went from being the most arrogant man Cersei has ever seen, to asking her how he was in bed compared to her exes as he was pulling his pants up.
I can definitely see Danny losing it when she finds out Jon is a legitimate rival rather than subordinate. I can also see that leading to something I assumed would happen pretty much since like the second or third book. Namely, Jon getting torched by a dragon and coming out of it fine.
And yeah, Euron's the worst. Definitely drags down the acting quality of every scene he's in and every one around him.
Sansa is Warden of the North; Daenerys is in charge but heartbroken at the Red Keep; and Jon, the song of ice and fire, is keeping the peace at the Wall, after having discovered and re-established the ancient truce between Men and the WW/Others.
Tyrion is the only surviving Lannister. Cersei and Jamie may be having a spat, but those two are just too full-on train wreck not to expire together. Arya survives but wanders off.
Oh...and Sandor wins Cleganebowl (which is basically confirmed now) but suffers a mortal wound and finds Joffrey's head on Gregor's body, just to make it extra fun.
where Arya asks Gendry to make her something. It looks like a socketed Dragon Glass Weapon. But even on pause, I can work out what the Dragon Glass Tip is meant to socket into?
Am I wrong in thinking that Gendry basically HAS to die in order for us to even get to some Dany power-struggle shenanigans?
Its kind of bothered me over the years that very little attention has been given to the fact that a natural-born Baratheon son is still alive and actively running around Westeros. Like, yeah he's a minor character, but still...
Her claim does not supercede his because the Targ line of succession has already been broken via right of conquest. Targs got thrown out, Baratheons got picked by gods and men (as far as the law is concerned) to rule and did rule for 20 years. Her claim isn't any more legitimate then some guy walking up and saying that a thousand years ago before the Targs ruled the Johnsons were kings and thus as a Johnson descendant he has a claim.
More importantly, everyone over the age of 40 despises and mistrusts Targs. A Baratheon is currently in power, Baratheons have been in power for 20 years, why realistically would the Realm not pick another Baratheon if the option was there?
John will keep his knowledge hush hush, much to Sam's shagrin. Dany will find out about Gendry and feed him to her dragons. John will finally take a stand and say "you may be cute, but that's a no no". Tyrian kills Dany to back John.
Why are people putting purely speculative guesses in spoilers?
BlaxicanX wrote: A Baratheon is currently in power, Baratheons have been in power for 20 years, why realistically would the Realm not pick another Baratheon if the option was there?
What Baratheon is in power? Has anyone on the show ever referred to her as Cersei Baratheon, ever? Has she ever displayed the sigil of the crowned stag?
She holds the throne now by force of arms alone, which is in the end the only thing that really matters. But in terms of proper succession, it's either Jon or Dany. Jon's ancestry is so muddled and hard to prove that's going to be a tough sell - the Dance of Dragons happened with facts a lot less debatable than the current Jon vs Dany situation.
BlaxicanX wrote: Her claim does not supercede his because the Targ line of succession has already been broken via right of conquest. Targs got thrown out, Baratheons got picked by gods and men (as far as the law is concerned) to rule and did rule for 20 years. Her claim isn't any more legitimate then some guy walking up and saying that a thousand years ago before the Targs ruled the Johnsons were kings and thus as a Johnson descendant he has a claim.
More importantly, everyone over the age of 40 despises and mistrusts Targs. A Baratheon is currently in power, Baratheons have been in power for 20 years, why realistically would the Realm not pick another Baratheon if the option was there?
Thats not true. It's why Robert was killing all the kids. Roberts rule is illegal as long as the Targaryen line continues to exist. The Baratheons are usurpers with no real claim and their claim only stands when the true heirs no longer exist.
Gendry is an illegitimate child, even if he is the only child of Robert. Legally, he cannot claim the Iron Throne unless a king/queen was to legitimize him, something Dany nor Cercie would likely do.
Jon might have a more legitimate claim to the Ironthrone than Danerys, but I don't think this would or should pose an issue, outside of the Producer's deciding to artificially make it one. 1) Jon wouldn't want it. 2) They're both kinda in love with each other and will definitely get hitched, which makes both having a claim irrelevant.
And its not like a, kinda sorta not-technically, incestuous relationship between two Targaryans is anything shocking. Danerys, when she was young, was expecting to marry Viscerys. Marrying her nephew would hardly be an issue for her.
The only way I see Gendry getting legitimized is if he swears to abandon all claim on the Ironthrone. In which case he refounds House Baratheon. Which I could definitely see happening. Gendry isn't going to want the throne, so no problem swearing off on it, and it would return some stability to have the Baratheons back.
Grey Templar wrote: Gendry is an illegitimate child, even if he is the only child of Robert. Legally, he cannot claim the Iron Throne unless a king/queen was to legitimize him, something Dany nor Cercie would likely do.
Jon might have a more legitimate claim to the Ironthrone than Danerys, but I don't think this would or should pose an issue, outside of the Producer's deciding to artificially make it one. 1) Jon wouldn't want it. 2) They're both kinda in love with each other and will definitely get hitched, which makes both having a claim irrelevant.
And its not like a, kinda sorta not-technically, incestuous relationship between two Targaryans is anything shocking. Danerys, when she was young, was expecting to marry Viscerys. Marrying her nephew would hardly be an issue for her.
The only way I see Gendry getting legitimized is if he swears to abandon all claim on the Ironthrone. In which case he refounds House Baratheon. Which I could definitely see happening. Gendry isn't going to want the throne, so no problem swearing off on it, and it would return some stability to have the Baratheons back.
Spoiler:
We're discussing all this because the writers seem to be at least toying with the idea that Dany is going to turn Mad Queen, given her reaction to Sansa and the Northerners. She shouldn't have any problem with a bastard with no real claim or with marrying a relative, given the context of the show's society and history, but if she drops the Mhysa routine and goes full Mother of Dragons, burning the son - bastard or not - of the man who slaughtered her whole family almost down to her child brother and her infant self isn't implausible, nor is the idea that she'll put Jon in a position where he has to choose between her and the family that raised him. It's not just Sam, Jon, and Bran that know the truth remember;Tyrion overheard things last season IIRC, and now Sansa and that Vale guy are doing the "whispery meetings in corners" thing with new arrivals. If Dany finds out about Jon, especially if it's not from Jon himself, and gets paranoid...
Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.
The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.
Ouze wrote: Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.
The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.
We are seeing a new challenge to Dany's reign.
See, before she's just been welcomed by the small folk, on account of relieving them from Slavery. But in The North? Welcome to Westerosi Politics. Your usual approach just ain't gonna work.
Ouze wrote: I'm also unhappy about how Stannis wound up.
What you need to now though Ouze is bring "Stannis the Mannis" up every time anyone mentions GoT, no matter the context, even when it is inappropriate (actually, specifically when it is inappropriate), and talk about how he was robbed, how he should be on the Iron Throne, and throw in something clever, like calling the show runners "Dumb & Dumber" or something like that. It's what all the kids are doing these days.
Sorry if I sound cynical, but I really like GoT and I've found that most GoT threads are either filled with book purists screeching over irrelevant details (or just going "It's sucked since they ran out of book stuff to write!"), or just people complaining about teleportation. They sucked the fun out of sharing the show with people.
Ouze wrote: Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.
The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.
Funny enough i've always kind of felt that she had a hint of madness in her. That it would take certain circumstances for it to shine through. For her to succeed from this point onward would be too easy.
Ouze wrote: Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.
It wouldn't be out of the picture. She always reacts angrily to anyone who challenges or even disagrees with her (thought that could be Emilia Clarke's lack of range... I'm not sure). She's never displayed the ability to be a good ruler and is 100% of the "I have a divine right to rule" methodology. She thinks she should be in charge because her father was in charge, not because she has the ability to do so.
It's only her many advisers that have held her back.
Her being angry at Jamie doesn't even make any sense. Barristan Selmy made it very clear that to Dany that the stories about her father were 100% true.
Good stuff included Dany having the best line - "Whatever they want" - although "I wanted elephants" was fun.
Nice to logistics mentioned - even if they are never again.
Pirate guy was fun.
Dragon flying good
Cersei choosing Bron to kill Jamie - WTF girl.
Only downside was Sam and Bran trying to break up the fledgling alliance before its really starts
As John said - it does not fething matter at this point which claim to the throne is most legit, the survivors can argue over it depending on what power they have left.
Vison boy and GRM in the show are doing the Night Kings work. Fething idiots.
She's never displayed the ability to be a good ruler and is 100% of the "I have a divine right to rule" methodology. She thinks she should be in charge because her father was in charge, not because she has the ability to do so.
Apart from when she has and became the adored ruler of thousands......
Divine rule - Thats what ALL the claimants think as thats the whole point of bloodines inlcuding Jon Snows (who looses every battle he fights.....and then someone wins it for him)
Ouze wrote: Dany going mad queen in the last 5 episodes would be a real bummer after they spent 8 years developing her into what she is now. I don't think it's going to happen.
The idea of Gendry being legitimized and refounding House Baratheon... that's a cool one.
One factor could be how closely the show's ending stays true to GRRM's intended conclusion. In the books, Daenerys is a fairly petulant child and a slide into madness could be in play. Show Daenerys doing the same wouldn't quite feel right, but it'd hardly be the first bit of narrative whiplash that we've seen on the show. And I'm sure there'd be some cheers if Jon (Azor Ahai?) was to run Daenerys (Nissa Nissa?) through with Longclaw. Still, I don't expect it to happen.
I don't feel Sam and Bran are out to split the alliance, so much as representing reality biting.
It helps the show feel like the show. Where there are no right decisions, just series of bad ones, with the trick being to pick the least worse option.
Jurrn Snurr is correct. To stop The Army of the Dead, and avoid rendering everything else moot, The North needs allies. And those he's got represent a huge fighting force, numerious, experienced and competent. And it's not an ally actively trying to undermine or politick over the whole thing. Yes there may yet come a reckoning, but one problem at a time, yeah?
Sansa is also correct. The North will not readily forgive Jurrn Snurr for embracing the Targaryen. The North remembers, after all. That is very real, that is a problem. And one not necessarily easily overcome with clever words and promises.
Sam was also correct. He's he first to see Dany as a monster, burning prisoners alive. And that after all is exactly what her Dad did. What we as the viewer know is the why of Dany's decision. She will not set men in chains. A noble intent, to a degree. And as for accepting the Tarley's turning coat? Well, they've got form for that, abandoning Lady Olenna, and betraying their Bannermen to follow Cersei, possibly the most despise person in the Seven Kingdoms.
It's all tension for the plot, and has suitably strained things. That's far better than 'suddenly everyone gets along'.
Dany is facing an uphill struggle. But she can do it. Fight alongside The North. Justify her actions before them, rather than claiming 'I are kween, does wot want'. Be stateswomanly about it.
Jurrn Snurr? Who is going to believe Sam and Bran? Is he even interested in The Crown? I don't think so. He didn't even want to be King In The North. That may prove a non-issue. Swear Sam and Bran to secrecy, resolved. Mostly.
There's also the smol matter of The Night King not being at all far away. Will they have time to thrash things out before the siege begins? Better if they can, potentially breaking if it's still simmering.
Gael Knight wrote: Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.
Would Jon Snow care about sleeping with his Aunt? Will Dany care that Jon is her nephew? Even if they were to get together they won't have an heir.
I assure you the chance of them not having a kid is zero.
Gael Knight wrote: Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.
Would Jon Snow care about sleeping with his Aunt? Will Dany care that Jon is her nephew? Even if they were to get together they won't have an heir.
I assure you the chance of them not having a kid is zero.
Agreed - Incest is a "noble" tradition to keep bloodlines pure - I am assuming that their child will be mirrored by dragon eggs.
@ Mad Doc - You are correct about pretty much of all of that for dramatic tension and that real people do stupid things but that does not make those things less stupid
Gael Knight wrote: Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.
Personally, my doubts have little to do with in-story believability. TV Daenerys is a highly popular character with a large following. The showrunners changed the character from the books to make her more likeable. 'Team Daenerys' will be unhappy with her making a heel turn down the home stretch. And (because spinoffs have already been announced) they have a TV franchise to think about.
If a heel turn is what GRRM has in mind and the showrunners feel obligated to follow it, then I guess that's what we'll get. But overall I suspect that the showrunners will do what's right for their enterprise, making Daenerys 'too big to fail' in that respect. A heroic death? Maybe. An ending that leaves her on the throne but with a broken heart? Sure. I think a truly happy ending is very unlikely, but I'd still give that better odds than her becoming the villain of the story.
Gael Knight wrote: Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.
Personally, my doubts have little to do with in-story believability. TV Daenerys is a highly popular character with a large following. The showrunners changed the character from the books to make her more likeable. 'Team Daenerys' will be unhappy with her making a heel turn down the home stretch. And (because spinoffs have already been announced) they have a TV franchise to think about.
If a heel turn is what GRRM has in mind and the showrunners feel obligated to follow it, then I guess that's what we'll get. But overall I suspect that the showrunners will do what's right for their enterprise, making Daenerys 'too big to fail' in that respect. A heroic death? Maybe. An ending that leaves her on the throne but with a broken heart? Sure. I think a truly happy ending is very unlikely, but I'd still give that better odds than her becoming the villain of the story.
Well GRM messed about with her character epseically in his last two books where he turns into an empty headed love struck teen - up to that point she was similar to the show - if anything they have stayed mroe true to her essential character than the author - who was more interested in 300 minor characters and lond tedious road trips.
Dany is brutal and ruthless because thats the world she lives in and has survived.
Otherwise agree - heroic death or alone on the throne with growing enemies in the shadows would fit the tone....
Gael Knight wrote: Is it really a stretch to imagine Dany going mad or doing something rash? She's done it before. She gives those psycho eye looks often enough.
Would Jon Snow care about sleeping with his Aunt? Will Dany care that Jon is her nephew? Even if they were to get together they won't have an heir.
One thing we have seen is Dany’s relative naivety slowly fall away. Just like Sansa, she learns from her mistakes, and doesn’t really make the same ones twice.
Will she grasp the Westorosi mindset quickly enough to stave off a collapse of political allies? Who knows. It really could go either way.
But....
Spoiler:
I feel Jaime’s arrival at Winterfell may be the centre of things. None of the other parties, barring Tyrion, have any real reason to trust him. But if he carries word that Cersei has finally flipped, and he’s there for the common interest? Who knows what impact that might have.
There’s also the wisdom of Jurrn Snurr. He recruited Wildlings successfully enough for them to fight for him against the mutually loathed Boltons. He then didn’t abandon or punish the Karatarks or Umbers for the failings of a relative handful of men. Is all really forgiven there? Or are there still enough bad sentiments stirring to wreck a battle plan?
How will the deployment of forces go? How will that be received? Jurrn seems to have a certain gift for it, but will they heed his counsel at this time?
And no. None of this is idiot proof, which is why I’m so intrigued by the situation. It can all turn out well, if people are prepared to swallow pride for the time being. If one or more prove intractable, depending on who exactly they are, all bets are off. Perhaps the dawning horror of just what it is they’re up against will be enough to calm hearts. It could just as easily see it go completely the other way.
Got to say. My hats are off to the writers so far this season. Stupidly early doors I know, but to steer away from ‘happy flappy, Your My Best Mate I Fakkin Lav Ya’ is a solid move.
Just pulling back for a minute, I didnt like the new intro. The old version really gave the impression of a mad monk messing about with balsa wood. This new one, he suddenly has a graphics heavy PC.
Didn't get to watch till last night, but I like how it's setting things up. I kinda feel like the big fight will happen up north, fail miserably, retreat to kings landing, golden army turns the tide, cersi dies, dany takes the throne, john dies sacrificing himself and his dragon to bring down the night king.
I don't think Jamie will kill Cersi, he will probably die diving in front of a xbow bolt aimed at Tyrion. Mostly because I'd rather see Cersi get gobbled up by a dragon.
Or maybe the dragon can eat the mountain, barf him up cuz he's gross and undead, and then said barfed mountain bits will clock Cersi upside the head and knock her over the side of the wall where she plummets to her doom?
Ouze wrote: I'm also unhappy about how Stannis wound up.
What you need to now though Ouze is bring "Stannis the Mannis" up every time anyone mentions GoT, no matter the context, even when it is inappropriate (actually, specifically when it is inappropriate), and talk about how he was robbed, how he should be on the Iron Throne, and throw in something clever, like calling the show runners "Dumb & Dumber" or something like that. It's what all the kids are doing these days.
Sorry if I sound cynical, but I really like GoT and I've found that most GoT threads are either filled with book purists screeching over irrelevant details (or just going "It's sucked since they ran out of book stuff to write!"), or just people complaining about teleportation. They sucked the fun out of sharing the show with people.
... what the feth
I have no idea who you are talking about, but it's not me. I thought Stannis was well played, and I really enjoyed the "fewer" references, but I'm not sure I've ever argued he should sit the Iron Throne, I'm unhappy that be burned Shireen, which was out of character - I don't think I brought him up much and certainly not compulsively, and I have said repeatedly I thought the showrunners were doing a better job than GRRM.
I literally have no goddamn idea who or what you are talking about, I sure never brought up teleportation, but I'm really annoyed for some reason you decided to use me as the proxy of all the GOT fans who annoy you (who actually don't agree with any of the things I actually think)
Here I am, the book purist, talking about how terrible a job I think the showrunners are doing:
Ouze wrote: Also, although I complained about how this was a weak episode, and it was... as Scooty said earlier even the weak episodes are the best thing on TV right now, and the high point of my week.
Ouze wrote: The show and the books started out very similar but they started to diverge markedly in the latter seasons. The show omitted major characters, it simplified multiple characters into single ones, and all the other streamlining that you'd expect when you're adapting a thousand pages of text into 10 hours. The thing is that I think the show has been delivering a better, cleaner narrative while the book narrative has gotten increasingly crushed under it's own weight.
IMO he's written himself into a corner and can't figure out how to get himself out of it, and he's waiting to see how the showrunners resolve it... and how well it's received, to finally resolve it on his own.
I'd like to rail about this approach but the truth is I myself did a project once that got totally out of hand and I was overwhelmed, so mostly I understand. It's a bad boat to be in.
I'm sure I'll buy and read this book, just like I read the terrific Dunk & Egg stuff, and that other background book he put out a while ago.
Ouze wrote: I'm good with that. The show is supposed to be an adaptation, not a transliteration*.
The truth is that I think the show will probably do a better job telling the story than the source books. I love them, but there are a lot of tangents in the books that are maybe unnecessary.
For myself, I trust the showrunners and give them the benefit of the doubt that the changes they made were necessary for their vision of how they want to tell the story; an adaptation rather than a 100% faithful re-enactment. Unlike many other (maybe even most other) book to film\TV interpretations, I feel they have done a good enough job up until this point that they have a reservoir of goodwill they may now draw from. I'm good with it for now.
Oh, here I am demanding thy explain travel times and bitching about teleportation:
Ouze wrote: I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot, but I will also freely concede that the tempo of this season has increased to the point that the plot is starting to suffer a bit. I don't mean fixating on how fast so and so can fly, and why didn't we see so-and-so on a boat for 3 episodes, because who cares, I mean stuff like Benjen's death. I am OK with what they did but I feel like that could have been just a little bit longer. I feel like if they could have even gotten 1 or 2 more episodes this season it might have made a huge difference, and I wonder if season 8 is also going to be like this.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.
Agreed.
It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...
The whole reason I watch Game of Thrones is not for the dragons, not for the zombies, and not for the boobies, but to see people crossing the world in mundane ways at a glacial pace.
Here's where I express my unflinching support for Stannis on the Iron Throne:
Ouze wrote: No question for me. Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, The Unburnt, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lady of the Seven Kingdoms, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains, Queen of Meereen, Princess of Dragonstone.
Man, I bet getting business cards sucks for her.
Why? She has the most legitimate claim to the throne. The Baratheon line are simply continuing the usurper's reign, and no king since Roberts Rebellion has been legitimate. Danyerys is the sole surviving member of House Targaryen on the show and the rightful heir to the throne last held by Aerys II.
The only thing that GRRM likes more then incest is pretending he killed a character off and then it turning out they weren't dead after all, for realz. Lets not even pretend he's going to kill off the enormously popular Jon Snow.
So far as the OP, I'd say Dany since she's the rightful ruler of Westeros. I'd love to see Tyrion as her Hand.
Except that he died, which would technically release him from his vow.
Having said that, I think he ends up back at the Wall. The Wall and the NW are just too much a part of Jon’s story. It’s also possibly foreshadowed by his relationship with Maester Aemon.
I don't think Jon ends up back at the wall. He clearly was 100% uninterested in continuing his watch after he was brought back. He cares primarily about destroying the Night King, but no longer by being part of the Night's Watch.
Plus I'm pretty sure that, win or lose, there will be no reason to guard the wall anymore. Either the Night King is defeated forever, ending the threat to the living for good, or he wins and a winter comes that lasts for all eternity. Either way, guarding the wall will be a pointless endeavor.
Grey Templar wrote: Plus I'm pretty sure that, win or lose, there will be no reason to guard the wall anymore. Either the Night King is defeated forever, ending the threat to the living for good, or he wins and a winter comes that lasts for all eternity. Either way, guarding the wall will be a pointless endeavor.
I agree. I don't see a return to the status quo at the end of the series.
Jons vows ending in death releases him from his duty to the nights watch. It doesn't restore his claim to any inheritance he might have had. Or at least it can be argued that way.
The show runners seem to be blowing right past all that stuff though. Jon himself doesn't even have the moral quandary about it that he should be being Ned Starks son. In the books when/if it comes to this I am sure Jon will be all tore up not knowing if he should accept his claim or keep his vows.
Gael Knight wrote: By that logic then Jon is the rightful heir, as his line takes precedence over Dany.
Would be except he forswore any claim to anything when he joined the nights watch.
Legally it can be argued that he lost his claim.
By what lawyers or judges, exactly? There is no law that really matters, not in the fiction and not in reality. Who ends up living after the dead are defeated and after the ensuing war is the "legitimate" ruler. I'm sort of annoyed with the whole "he/she" is the rightful heir schtick. What is "right" has no bearing on reality, nor should we expect t in our fiction, unless we really want pure escapism.
Grey Templar wrote: Plus I'm pretty sure that, win or lose, there will be no reason to guard the wall anymore. Either the Night King is defeated forever, ending the threat to the living for good, or he wins and a winter comes that lasts for all eternity. Either way, guarding the wall will be a pointless endeavor.
I agree. I don't see a return to the status quo at the end of the series.
That is exactly what people have been saying since after the last winter.
I was venting my frustrations in general, not accusing you of anything. Hence my "sorry if I sound cynical" bit at the end. Sorry that did not come across.
I think I just realized you missed a comma in your original post which would change the sentence considerably. My apologies for my part in the confusion.
Gael Knight wrote: By that logic then Jon is the rightful heir, as his line takes precedence over Dany.
Would be except he forswore any claim to anything when he joined the nights watch.
Legally it can be argued that he lost his claim.
By what lawyers or judges, exactly? There is no law that really matters, not in the fiction and not in reality. Who ends up living after the dead are defeated and after the ensuing war is the "legitimate" ruler. I'm sort of annoyed with the whole "he/she" is the rightful heir schtick. What is "right" has no bearing on reality, nor should we expect t in our fiction, unless we really want pure escapism.
I agree.
But if WE are talking about who actually has claim and who SHOULD rule by rights then the laws of succession in the fictional kingdom are the things that matter for that discussion. Jon is the crown Prince and has the rightful claim. Right up until he joined an organization that stripped him of any claim. Danny is the next in line.
In my opinion I think it's unambiguous that Jon's service to the Night's Watch, and all that entails, ended with his death.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death (and so on). The oath explicitly says his watch has ended.
So far as whether he or Dany would be next in line, I think there are arguments for both. By the laws of Westeros, it would be Aegon, but there always have been "the Targaryens are different" loopholes, such as, say, marrying your sister, or having 2 wives, or who exactly is next in the line of succession.
Ouze wrote: In my opinion I think it's unambiguous that Jon's service to the Night's Watch, and all that entails, ended with his death.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death (and so on). The oath explicitly says his watch has ended.
So far as whether he or Dany would be next in line, I think there are arguments for both. By the laws of Westeros, it would be Aegon, but there always have been "the Targaryens are different" loopholes, such as, say, marrying your sister, or having 2 wives, or who exactly is next in the line of succession.
I agree that his duties to the Nights Watch ends with his death. (Clearly he justifies it that way)
The full oath is..
Night gathers, and now my watch begins.
It shall not end until my death.
I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.
I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.
I shall live and die at my post.
I am the sword in the darkness.
I am the watcher on the walls.
I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.
I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
What can be argued however is that being released from his duty to the Nights Watch does not reinstate any claims that he had before he joined. Maybe he can find new ways into holding lands and wearing crowns (like being declared King in the North). But thats new stuff. Not reclaiming his old stuff. Just my take on it.
Gael Knight wrote: By that logic then Jon is the rightful heir, as his line takes precedence over Dany.
Would be except he forswore any claim to anything when he joined the nights watch.
Legally it can be argued that he lost his claim.
By what lawyers or judges, exactly? There is no law that really matters, not in the fiction and not in reality. Who ends up living after the dead are defeated and after the ensuing war is the "legitimate" ruler. I'm sort of annoyed with the whole "he/she" is the rightful heir schtick. What is "right" has no bearing on reality, nor should we expect t in our fiction, unless we really want pure escapism.
I agree.
But if WE are talking about who actually has claim and who SHOULD rule by rights then the laws of succession in the fictional kingdom are the things that matter for that discussion. Jon is the crown Prince and has the rightful claim. Right up until he joined an organization that stripped him of any claim. Danny is the next in line.
Fair enough. Well spoken, good sir. I Would just be wary of us putting any sort of rightful crown ornimatation on any person in the show. The rightful crown really doesn't matter at this point. It really never did other than to be a McGuffin to point at someone to cheer at/for. Hence the Stannis empithsizers. No laws really matter at this scale (just like in real life). Presumably, the Stark household had written agreements with the other North families. Laws and treaties and such. Yup, those mattered. If they really did, then half of last season could have been nixed. It seems to me, that is sort of the point of the "game of thrones". It is a game where people make their own rules when and wherever they want. The winner is who ends up living. Of course, in order to be satisfying, the tale must appeal to at least some people, so someone somebody was cheering for will win...that's my risky guess.
I agree, the "Game of Thrones" was always a bunch of drama nonsense that distracted everyone and depleted resources from the real story. The Song of Ice and Fire.
I disagree that is was nonsense. It is what created verisimilitude. People are going to create laws and lines of succession and treaties. They just don't matter much, ultimately. If you are going to tell a tale from a human perspective, you have to talk about what the humans would talk about. We as omniscient viewers, don't have to follow those rules though. To me, that is the very thing that Martin tapped into that makes the story work. I'm still not sure if it should be classified as modernist, post modernist, or popomo. With the above discussion, I personally, would put the books in the modernist category. The show is probably postmodernist. Our discussion, i guess, would be popomo.
Well, Martin always said he didn't understand why all the high fantasy was so fantastical and unrealistic and how it distracted from the stories. A Song of Ice and Fire was instead written as a historical fiction with all the grit and realism that that implies. It may have fantastic elements but it was always grounded in telling a story much like the War of the Roses as a dramatization of a history.
Grey Templar wrote: I don't think Jon ends up back at the wall. He clearly was 100% uninterested in continuing his watch after he was brought back. He cares primarily about destroying the Night King, but no longer by being part of the Night's Watch.
Plus I'm pretty sure that, win or lose, there will be no reason to guard the wall anymore. Either the Night King is defeated forever, ending the threat to the living for good, or he wins and a winter comes that lasts for all eternity. Either way, guarding the wall will be a pointless endeavor.
Again, a key factor here is how closely the ending will match GRRM's intended conclusion. Left to their own devices, sure, these showrunners would probably have the young hero defeat the dark lord with his magic sword, sparking lots of happily ever after.
There's no way the books go down like that though. GRRM has famously said that he doesn't like traditional good vs. evil stories. The NK doesn't even exist in the books like in the show. He's a figure -- possibly allegorical -- from an old legend. And there are hints all over the place that the 'status quo' may not reflect the truth of the situation...that the real purpose of the Wall and NW has been forgotten. The Others/WW might not even truly be evil.
So -- if we're really going to get into this -- I think it's completely possible that the show ends with a resumption of an ancient, now forgotten truce that was broken by the NW in their ranging beyond the Wall. And it makes tons of sense for Jon -- as the song of ice and fire -- to broker the peace and then monitor that peace from the Wall. As I said, it's possibly been foreshadowed already by Jon's closeness with Maester Aemon...his great-uncle (I think) and another Targaryen who turned down the crown to serve there. And there are also things like Daenerys' dream of a blue rose (a flower associated with Lyanna) growing from the Wall. Jon is conceptually tied to the Wall and the NW, and it's been well established in both mediums that he's not the type to be interested in ruling anyway. Leading, sure...but only when serving a greater good. He's the perfect Lord Commander.
But again, I'm looking at it from a book perspective. For this show...beating the bad guy and getting the girl is still in play.
Who is or legitmate only really matters to those in power, most of the "small folk" don;t give a gak - I seem to recall that being mentioned in the show.
If you have enough swords, spears or indeed dragons - you are the king or queen, if you can then hold it and have a succession of your bloodline then all good.
After all the entire "legitmate" succession of the Targayrians starts from asingle fmaily coming over and taking ove the 7 kingdoms by using their dragons. If you look at it that way they and their descendants are no more legitmate than Robert. Before them I imagine the king of the various lands are descendants of those who took power at the point of a sword axe or spear - they may have claime dthey were the decendants of the gods or whatever.
Another possibility is that Dany gets sick of Westros and goes back to her lands in the East - all those lands were also ruled by the Valarian Empire - so legitmatly hers too.
GRM obviously hs no idea how to continue never mind finish the books - he is watching to see how the show works and is received adn then may ge round to writing some of his own version. His first few books were good reads, interesting and somewhat unusual but there were and are a huge variety of fantasy authors who write gritty or similar works, many without proecting themselves into the novel (Sam).
Personally, I'm hoping the white walkers win and kill everyone, and as the final credits roll in the background is GRRM just belly laughing and pointing at the screen while cash rains down the sky.
Gotta admit, that would be a memorable end.
But they're clearly going to go the whole wayne's world mega-happy ending where Jon and Danyeris win, get married, and rule together or something.
I think there has to be a dead connection between Jon and the whole white walker thing. Why else put him through all of that? Maybe all of Westeros burns, various characters die and the only thing that is left is Jon ruling the peace from the north and probably Tyrion in the South.
Although I do love what Emelia has done with what script she has been given, I think her character is insufferable and am on the side rooting for her to either go 'mad queen' when she finds out Jon's true lineage and she is no longer #1 - or hopefully dies a noble death saving Jorah or something.
I think Daenarys going mad works. Since to Ascension, she never really had to fight for anything. While it may SEEM like she conquered lands, she never really did. She got the Dragons as a gift. Her "Loyal" Soldiers are slaves that she bought with her dragon......then had her dragon kill the buyer. Yeah
she set them "free" but they are kids raised from birth to Obey, to leave her would never enter their minds.
The Dothraki she got she got because she just didnt get burned....
Now she is facing real Adversity and real fights.
She is no real leader, Jon is a real leader. I would not be surprised if the other dragon starts to side with Jon, Who has shown to lead by example than fear.
It also kinda fits with what the show is kinda saying "Divine Right" and ruling by birth is kinda garbage.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think Daenarys going mad works. Since to Ascension, she never really had to fight for anything. While it may SEEM like she conquered lands, she never really did. She got the Dragons as a gift. Her "Loyal" Soldiers are slaves that she bought with her dragon......then had her dragon kill the buyer. Yeah
she set them "free" but they are kids raised from birth to Obey, to leave her would never enter their minds.
The Dothraki she got she got because she just didnt get burned....
Now she is facing real Adversity and real fights.
She is no real leader, Jon is a real leader. I would not be surprised if the other dragon starts to side with Jon, Who has shown to lead by example than fear.
It also kinda fits with what the show is kinda saying "Divine Right" and ruling by birth is kinda garbage.
Dany has survived so much more than most of the characters including Jon.
She has lost a child and a husband, been sold by her own brother and raised an army of devoted followers who have never lost a battle. Dany hates slavery and has fought hard against it. She gave the unsullied their FREEDOM - they love her for that - if you don;t understand that - I donlt know what to say.
Jon has gained the loyalty of many in the North but all of his battles have been won by others and he was stabbed to death by his own men. He leads by example but often that is foolinshness - if not for Littelfinger and Sansa he and all the wildings would be dead or worse at the hands of Ramsey Bolton. Where he does score is that he is prepared to put his own ambitions aside.
All we have is Greyworm saying they love her for it.
The Unsullied are slaves still, raised from birth by a brutal regime.
I severely doubt they even have a concept of freedom. Slaves quite often stay with those the freed them because that is all they know.
And lets not forget, Jon didnt BUY the norths loyalty like Daenarys did. the north CHOSE Jons loyalty.
hotsauceman1 wrote: All we have is Greyworm saying they love her for it.
The Unsullied are slaves still, raised from birth by a brutal regime.
I severely doubt they even have a concept of freedom. Slaves quite often stay with those the freed them because that is all they know.
And lets not forget, Jon didnt BUY the norths loyalty like Daenarys did. the north CHOSE Jons loyalty.
Why Would Greyworm lie? The Unsullied were more than happy to turn on their oppressors and not a single one has ever chosen to leave her service. Did you not see the throngs of people that called her mother? You do watch the show right?
Whats left of the North chose Jon, remnants of shattered houses led by children and even some of them are reluctant.
They slaughtered the masters because their new master said to.
Again, They are slaves raised to Obey, They she bought. They would not have listened to he before.
And Jons chose Dany so reluctantly it was a plot point.
And I did watch the show, and I saw Dany never work hard so a single thing and just have people bow before her.
hotsauceman1 wrote: They slaughtered the masters because their new master said to.
Again, They are slaves raised to Obey, They she bought. They would not have listened to he before.
And Jons chose Dany so reluctantly it was a plot point.
And I did watch the show, and I saw Dany never work hard so a single thing and just have people bow before her.
But Jon DID choose Dany - right?
It seems you have watched but not understood. I suggest you listen to how the freed slaves act and regard her. How the whole fething point of her campaign was more to free slaves than perhaps anything else.
I imagine if you are slave and someone frees you you might well be quite pleased.
here you go - watch and learn....and tell me again how she does not lead and inspire - The Unsullied (and Missendrie and thousands of other freed slaves) made a choice to stay with her same as the Wildings had a more stark (pun intended) choice to die or join with Jon.
She's had an unconventional rise to power, sure. But I feel hotsauceman1 is selling her somewhat short.
Yes, she bought The Unsullied. But she then ordered them to slaughter The Masters, without harming other slaves.
She then frees another city's worth of slaves. As rulers in the setting go, she is somewhat benevolent.
Her challenge is finding her feet somewhere where very few people want her. To them, she's a Targaryen first and foremost, and for many, her predecessor is a living, and deeply unpleasant memory.
We know she's not an inherently evil person. Her methods are broadly questionable, but one could argue much less so than say, Cersei (Dany incinerated enemy commanders that wouldn't switch sides. Cersei incinerated a decent proportion of her own city).
She's got a lot to prove, and lot of people to prove it to. But by riding North to defend The North? That's a good first step.
If you watch the video, she doesn't free the unsullied before she orders them to kill the Masters.
That just reenforces my point. She has an army of loyal because she bought them.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If you watch the video, she doesn't free the unsullied before she orders them to kill the Masters.
That just reenforces my point. She has an army of loyal because she bought them.
"Sigh" I give up - you don't want to understand the narrative because it doesn't suit your own mental narrative.
No I understand, because I saw more than just what was on the screen, I applied critical thinking to what is going on.
And what is going on with in is, in Westoros, Dany is facing the first real pushback because she is already dealing with free men and is under accustomed to adversity.
hotsauceman1 wrote: No I understand, because I saw more than just what was on the screen, I applied critical thinking to what is going on.
And what is going on with in is, in Westoros, Dany is facing the first real pushback because she is already dealing with free men and is under accustomed to adversity.
Cause Dothraki aren't free men....
You're being willfully ignorant of the things she's gone thru to get to her current position. She's fought to take cities. She's fought to keep them. She's ruled in the face of rebellion. Is she unused to having Northerner style pushback yes but that's also because it's not "we hate you die" or "we love you yay!".
Hmm, if I remember, the Dothraki imprisoned her and then she magically didn't die from a fire...... So then they followed her
I also forgot Burning men Alive for not bending the knee is benevolent.
She is just as mad as her father, it's just starting to show.
Killing someone for not bending the knee is hardly something unique to her. She wasn’t even going to burn Dikon. He was the stupid one who jumped out and said “you gotta burn me too!”
She wasn’t going to force him to bend the knee or die till he stood up. Only Randall was going to have that choice at first.
I don't get how you guys do not see that as a bad thing. She didn't chop their heads of, she burned them with a dragon. Just like her dad did minus the dragon part.
She is clearly just like all other Targaryans
All im saying is it isnt out of left field for Dany to go all mad queen on everyone once people start to deny her more and more.
Hell, with Jon likely keeping his lineage a secret for a bit but she will find out from someone else and that can set her off.
That was the absolute definition of a "hey its the season opener. quick! - lets catch up with every possible character and group we can!".
Very ho hum for me.
That dragon ride/chase with dani and jon was just woeful (and crap CGI to boot).
Hopefully they'll start to ramp things up.....tick tock.
hotsauceman1 wrote: No I understand, because I saw more than just what was on the screen, I applied critical thinking to what is going on.
And what is going on with in is, in Westoros, Dany is facing the first real pushback because she is already dealing with free men and is under accustomed to adversity.
NO you took a few elements of the scene - twisted them to fit your wn narrative and ignored the rest because it didn't.
Dany leads thousands of other free men and women - she has no slaves or serfs - again do you even watch the show - the Dothraki choose to follow her, various free main cast follow her because she is a strong leader with a cuase - just like others such as Jon Snow (not my fav but he has gained a following by what he believes in). She has had push back from various people like Tyrion.
Pretending that the Unsullied are still slaves is pathetic.
Dany is facing push back in the North because:
* The plot needs it
* The (not unwarranted predjudice) of the remaining northerners.
She is relatively benevolant but has found that sparing enemies leads to more grief than sparing them, ALL other rulers including Jon do the same - he says so himself. Dany kills people, so does everyone else Your love of double standards when it comes to characters is frankly astounding and in line with your lack of understanding of key elements of the plot and characters as defined on screen!
Dany could go mad yep - maybe - so could Sansa after her treatment by Ramsey - so could Jon due to pressure and lefts face it - being a dead man walking. So could lots of people.
IF Dany was the character you think she is (with no evidence and ignoring the actual show) she would have done as her ancestors - burned the Seven Kingdoms, their armies and strongholds unitl they bent the knee - it would certainly have been much easier than the path she choose. But she didn't did she.
The Lord of Light stuff has not had much screen time since the Red Witch was sent away - we know there were similar priestess in the East - I wonder if tehre will be anything else relating to them?
Ratius wrote: That was the absolute definition of a "hey its the season opener. quick! - lets catch up with every possible character and group we can!".
Very ho hum for me.
That dragon ride/chase with dani and jon was just woeful (and crap CGI to boot).
Hopefully they'll start to ramp things up.....tick tock.
I liked it, better at least than most of the last season, though obviously compression is showing up again - they need to pull the trigger on huge number of storylines and character arcs within only few episodes. Many thing seemed rushed again. But at least we are done with the stabbings now, or so it seems. Dear Lord I was sick of them.
Night King functionally Undead, has ice to thank by the look of it.
Jurrn Snurr. Functionally Undead. Has fire to thank?
Could they be destined to end each other?
There are endless ice and fire themes in the books. GRRM layers that stuff so there are multiple possible answers to the story’s prophecies and such. So sure, it’s possible. I think the more obvious answer is that Jon himself is the (Rhaegar’s) SOIAF. Stark and Targaryen. The latter with their ties to dragons, the former with their possible ties to the Others/WWs (the books seem to hint at that last item).
The Night King is a different dude in the books. Historically there was a leader of the Nights Watch who took a bride from north of the wall with pale white skin and clear bright blue eyes. He declared himself the Night King and turned the Nights Watch into an army and attacked the 7 kingdoms from the wall. After a Targaryen beat them back he added the stipulations to the nights watch oath about taking no wives and wearing no crowns along with ensuring that their keeps had no walls to protect them from the south.
The guy they call the Night King in the show just doesn't exist in the books thus far.
And the tale of the NK also says that his name was Stark. The Starks and the Others/WWs seem to have a lot of ties.
Why must there be a Stark in Winterfell? What exactly is going on with those crypts? Why are they part of the oldest construction of the castle, which was mostly built later? Why are the crypts always cold, despite Winterfell being built over hot springs? Is the oldest section really collapsed...or sealed?
Most of this speculation may nowhere...or not. There's just such incredible depth to the books.
gorgon wrote: And the tale of the NK also says that his name was Stark. The Starks and the Others/WWs seem to have a lot of ties.
Why must there be a Stark in Winterfell? What exactly is going on with those crypts? Why are they part of the oldest construction of the castle, which was mostly built later? Why are the crypts always cold, despite Winterfell being built over hot springs? Is the oldest section really collapsed...or sealed?
Most of this speculation may nowhere...or not. There's just such incredible depth to the books.
Well, the Starks, and most of the houses that ruled the 7 kingdoms pre Targaryen, are the ones that fought and beat the Others during the Long Night. The wall was built by Bran the Builder after the Long Night and founded House Stark. The Others don't appear to be humans made into monsters in the books. In fact, right from opening chapter 1 of book 1 they are VERY clearly something completely other than human (Hence them being called the Others). White Walker is the name given mostly to the Wights who are just undead minions.
If there is any link in the books to the Starks in general and the Others it's that the Starks helped beat them and then (at least helped and took credit for) built the most lasting defense against them.
While I agree that the Others don't *seem* to be former humans, Old Nan's story says the NK gave his soul to her when he gave her his seed. A transformation then? I think it's possible. Only GRRM and the show runners really know what the upcoming books will say about it.
Also, that story suggests interbreeding. And it may be that her story isn't a literal truth but an allegory about the Starks and Others sharing a bloodline. Warging is a magical ability that comes from somewhere, and multiple Starks have it. It also has some parallels in the Others' ability to control the wights.
Having said that, I think the blood source is the Children of the Forest. The Starks are closer to the old religion than any other house, as demonstrated by the weirwood inside the walls of Winterfell. The crannogmen also seem close to the CotF, and Jojen had similar abilities.
GRRM has said that the Others control over the wights is not the same as what a Warg does. In all ways in all his descriptions of them they are always set apart. Mankind and life in general are things supported by the lord of light. The others are children of the Dark Other. A cruel god of death and dark and cold.
If any of the gods in GoT are real its those 2 gods.
I never even thought who the Night King was as being that Important, what I thought was important was their origin, being First Men transformed children, who those men where is not important, being so long ago.
But that is just me.
Undead Hodor returns, too slow to remember he's actually supposed to be dead and under magic control he fights and kills the Night King, saving the entire kingdom and is crowned King. Best ending ever.
Night King functionally Undead, has ice to thank by the look of it.
Jurrn Snurr. Functionally Undead. Has fire to thank?
Could they be destined to end each other?
There are endless ice and fire themes in the books. GRRM layers that stuff so there are multiple possible answers to the story’s prophecies and such. So sure, it’s possible. I think the more obvious answer is that Jon himself is the (Rhaegar’s) SOIAF. Stark and Targaryen. The latter with their ties to dragons, the former with their possible ties to the Others/WWs (the books seem to hint at that last item).
One of the few times it’s specifically called out is when Danny sees the visions across time in the house of the undying where she sees Rhaegar with baby Jon saying “his is the song of ice and fire. “
It doesn't appear that the show are bothering with either any more - too costly I bet.
Undead Hodor returns, too slow to remember he's actually supposed to be dead and under magic control he fights and kills the Night King, saving the entire kingdom and is crowned King. Best ending ever.
From what I understood was it wasnt cost, but annoyance with filming them and animal filming laws.
Same reason why horses dont appear THAT much when in the books, they should have.
This is the best episode in a long time even if it is ultimately just fanservice before the doom. Feels like the last chance to breathe before going off to fight the end boss.
Episode 3: Undead fight part 1.
Episode 4: Undead fight part 2.
The end result is maybe 2 or 3 white walkers die and it takes out a large swathe of the undead army. But they do not get the night king. The survivors retreat south and the night king reinforces his troops off the dead, but now there are less white walkers to kill. The Ice dragon might die here but at a major cost.
Episode 5. Retreat South, reinforce at Kings Landing. Cersi gets her come upins.
Episode 6: Final Battle against the dead at Kings Landing.
Yeah, the idiots who live there think the safest place is a tomb full of corpses. The Night King is going to raise those corpses and they are going to be looking at an attack from inside the walls.
If they had just rushed into the battle and people being killed then there would have been a lot of whining. There's now whining either way, but at least we are getting to spend some last moments with these characters before they start getting smacked left and right. I'm okay with a slow burn, but it looks like next episode it will start to pay off and we'll hopefully be more invested in these characters.
This episode kind of made me rethink Jaime actually.I think we've had our Jaime & Brienne moment in the Knighting scene.
I don't know whether the crypt is a double bluff. The tombs will be quite heavy and the wights possess any kind of super strength that they could lift the stone lids. They might start screeching or perhaps banging which could cause a panic.
It looks like Berric and the Hound are searching through Winterfell at the same time Arya seems to be fleeing from something. I assume they'll meet each other here. It also seems like Dany is on Drogon here, perhaps searching for Viserion.
What I think they did get over is that none of the characters particularly expect to survive the coming battle. And from there, a genuine sense of ‘well, we might as well all get along as best we can, despite 7 seasons of scrapping’.
Spoiler:
Felt a bit weird watching Arya and Gendry’s scene though. Perhaps it’s because Maisie Williams hasn’t physically grown much since the start of the series. Narratively it made sense like. Just ‘but aren’t you 14 or something!’.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What I think they did get over is that none of the characters particularly expect to survive the coming battle. And from there, a genuine sense of ‘well, we might as well all get along as best we can, despite 7 seasons of scrapping’.
Spoiler:
Felt a bit weird watching Arya and Gendry’s scene though. Perhaps it’s because Maisie Williams hasn’t physically grown much since the start of the series. Narratively it made sense like. Just ‘but aren’t you 14 or something!’.
I'm being a little bit pedantic here, but...
Spoiler:
She has grown...just not much. She's like 5'1"ish tops, slender, and has a youthful face. She definitely doesn't look 22. It doesn't help that we've literally watched her grow up as well.
I think it’s because she’s not particularly noticeably aged. Compare to Sophie Turner, who has very much crossed that boundary between a teenager and a woman. Maisie hasn’t to the same degree. Though that could also be because in the show she’s dressed quite boyishly, hiding her figure and that
Probably just me being a bit weird, but I still found it a surprisingly scene.
This episode was phenomenal, like watching a good Bioware game.
As one poster said in reddit:
"You also need to feel the people again before they start dying. This episode was a masterclass in getting us to “feel” invested in people we really haven’t spent too much time with over the past several seasons.
Plus, not all the things that were left unknown were battle related. There were a lot of intra-personal relationships that were just kinda left out there. This gave us a ton of closure on those relationships. For those of us who like character building and friendship/enemy building, this was a great and very necessary episode - before half of them die."
I didn't think the dialogue was particularly amazing (the conversation between Jon and Daenerys felt awkward, and not in an in-universe way), but overall the episode was a reminder that the show was at its best when characters interacted. Rather than being a torrent of BIG! STUFF! HAPPENING!
I still look forward to next week's big stuff, although what they seem to be setting up is incredibly obvious and a potential versimilitude-buster, even in the context of a fantasy show. I mean, did you know that the crypts are the safest place to be? For realz. EVERYONE should go there. Because they're safe. SO safe.
I hope that either the obvious doesn't take place, or that there's an interesting twist (and there could be, since the crypts are a mysterious and interesting place). Because otherwise...someone really would have thought of that. But this show has disappointed me a lot in recent seasons.
As others have said, the tombs themselves are likely quite secure. And from what we’ve seen of the Night King, raising the Dead appears to be a conscious effort, rather than one purely of relative proximity.
However, I’m wondering if there’s going to be a digging effort by the dead, break in through the crypt?
But.....
Spoiler:
I’m really not sure if Winterfell will succeed. I mean, there’s an assumption casualties will be heavy, but victory is an overall certainty.
How much fun might it be if they fail utterly, and we see everything and everyone in The North turned against Cersei?
The only thing I can think of against that, is Bran’s vision in, I think, Season 6 (May have been 5) of Dragon’s casting a shadow over the Red Keep. But, that’s not necessarily a glimpse of the future, given he sees all of time.
As I said in an earlier post, the end to this is a difficult thing to get right. They need to avoid a cop out, or Deus Ex. But ‘aaaaaaand everyone loses’ renders the rest of the show pretty pointless.
Whichever way it goes, I’m in it for the duration.
I don't like being so negative, but the past few seasons of the show have been about big dramatic flourishes rather than internal logic and sense. Dead Starks busting out of tombs would look cool and spawn many OMGs on social media, so I expect that's where we're headed. *shrug* I'm still hopeful that they'll surprise me, but I suspect that the story will proceed in a fairly straightforward manner from here on out.
Regarding who 'wins'...
Spoiler:
It seems obvious that the WWs get defeated or turned back, since everything about the season (including the new credits) looks to have a two-step structure. First the North, then King's Landing.
And my bet continues to be Daenerys on the Iron Throne, with Jon retaking the black and keeping his true identity on the downlow for her. Brings his story full circle and in line with that of Aemon, his great-uncle.
I have a feeling they're gonna kill off Dany, dunno why. Been coming off as a little power mad in a passive aggressive kinda way. I can almost see her wanting to take a sneaky shot at Jon if things keep progressing.
I wonder how many D&D DMs are suddenly gonna have potions of strength made out of giant's milk now?
Episode 3: Undead fight part 1.
Episode 4: Undead fight part 2.
The end result is maybe 2 or 3 white walkers die and it takes out a large swathe of the undead army. But they do not get the night king. The survivors retreat south and the night king reinforces his troops off the dead, but now there are less white walkers to kill. The Ice dragon might die here but at a major cost.
Episode 5. Retreat South, reinforce at Kings Landing. Cersi gets her come upins.
Episode 6: Final Battle against the dead at Kings Landing.
I totally agree with this cadence. I was a little shocked at the obvious "the crypts are safe!!!" and especially the Arya/Gendry scene... But, good for her! She has played such a boy role in her character and it was a shock to see her become a woman. The lead to was there with the obvious flirting and always a bit of happiness in characters is a good thing. Arya has been one of the more intriguing characters and Maisie is great in the role; however,
Spoiler:
Why was she staring off when Gendry was sleeping sound? Does this portent she did this for another reason?
Why was she staring off when Gendry was sleeping sound? Does this portent she did this for another reason?
Since we're doing things with spoiler tags for some reason;
Spoiler:
I took it that she's just reflecting on the wars to come. For as cocksure as she's become, facing the reality of your own mortality can still be a lot to take in, even for No One.
LunarSol wrote: They seemed to set up a scene where Danny lets Jon die or fails to come to his aid.
Yeah, I suspect it'll be something like that until
Spoiler:
Rhaegal comes to Jon's aid and he takes command of it for good. IIRC, dragons bond for life, and the bond was likely formed during Jon's ride.
If the showrunners stay predictable, what follows will probably look like this:
Spoiler:
Later Daenerys will probably realize that she wants Jon more than the IT, and will try to win him back and ask him to rule with her (or simply rule instead of her). Jon will turn her away, but hand her the IT by re-taking the black and keeping his identity secret (thereby also giving Winterfell to Sansa). He'll also lecture her about how to be a good queen, which she'll take to (her somewhat broken) heart. But no fear...she already has a bun in the oven, so the Targaryen line will live again. Meanwhile Jon continues his lonely duty, keeping Westeros safe with a rejuvenated NW. Bittersweet ending achieved...the end.
Why was she staring off when Gendry was sleeping sound? Does this portent she did this for another reason?
Since we're doing things with spoiler tags for some reason;
Spoiler:
I took it that she's just reflecting on the wars to come. For as cocksure as she's become, facing the reality of your own mortality can still be a lot to take in, even for No One.
Why else use spoiler tags? Peeps won’t have seen yet, so it’s a protection for the incautious reader.
Why was she staring off when Gendry was sleeping sound? Does this portent she did this for another reason?
Since we're doing things with spoiler tags for some reason;
Spoiler:
I took it that she's just reflecting on the wars to come. For as cocksure as she's become, facing the reality of your own mortality can still be a lot to take in, even for No One.
Why else use spoiler tags? Peeps won’t have seen yet, so it’s a protection for the incautious reader.
The post title says “spoilers” in it, does it not?
If you don't want to be spoiled about this week's episode of game of thrones, and you come to page 7 or 8 of a thread entitled "GOT Season 8 speculation and spoilers" then I don't know what to say but you have no one to blame but yourself.
It made sense to use spoilers when the books were ahead of the show, but that time is long past.
Ouze wrote: If you don't want to be spoiled about this week's episode of game of thrones, and you come to page 7 or 8 of a thread entitled "GOT Season 8 speculation and spoilers" then I don't know what to say but you have no one to blame but yourself.
It made sense to use spoilers when the books were ahead of the show, but that time is long past.
Ouze wrote: If you don't want to be spoiled about this week's episode of game of thrones, and you come to page 7 or 8 of a thread entitled "GOT Season 8 speculation and spoilers" then I don't know what to say but you have no one to blame but yourself.
It made sense to use spoilers when the books were ahead of the show, but that time is long past.
Pretty much this. You basically shouldn't be on any sites (social media or otherwise) that discusses GoT if you don't want anything spoiled at this point.
And most of the spoler tagged stuff isn't really spoilers, just pure speculation. If/when a leak comes out of episodes that haven't yet aired, that's what the spoiler is for.
Episode 3: Undead fight part 1.
Episode 4: Undead fight part 2.
The end result is maybe 2 or 3 white walkers die and it takes out a large swathe of the undead army. But they do not get the night king. The survivors retreat south and the night king reinforces his troops off the dead, but now there are less white walkers to kill. The Ice dragon might die here but at a major cost.
Episode 5. Retreat South, reinforce at Kings Landing. Cersi gets her come upins.
Episode 6: Final Battle against the dead at Kings Landing.
I agree, sort of.
But, taken from somewhere else, someone said this that has me thinking about where the show is actually going:
The Night's King is the personification of death. Humans cannot live forever, ergo The Night's King Cannot Be Killed.
The Last Hero was a diplomat, not a warrior. He negotiated a truce.
The terms of the pact are up for renewal and the Night's King will withdraw when satisfactory terms on a new compromise are met. [finite mortal life being, metaphorically, the compromise between immortality and death].
Violence is destructive. People who fight amongst people [over the throne] are doomed [and the iron throne, metaphor for self destruction as it is, why do you think its made of swords that literally cut and draw blood from the people who sit on it? along with it]
People who reject individual ambition and prioritize the team sport of survival [i.e. Jon kneeling for the greater good] will be spared and carry humanity on. Those who prefer to win the Game Of Thrones (i.e. Cersei) will be utterly annihilated.
I think this is the the most cogent analysis I've seen of this.
I'd guess that the implication here would then be, perhaps, that Bran sacrifices himself to "negotiate" with the Night King, Jon is spared somehow in giving up any further ambition. Dany nearly is killed, until she realizes that ambition to tyranny is akin to death, and then the Night King and company go south, and kill Cersei and smash King Landing along with the Iron Throne, the "root" of the evil at hand. The Night King is satiated again, tyranny averted, they all go back to Locke's "state of nature" minus perverse "human ambition" to get in the way.
I like it, because it's the kind of simplistic philosophy this show is likely aiming for...
Furthermore, I think Bran's cryptic statement, seemingly foreshadowing one(or both of their deaths) might foreshadow instead that the paradigm, the sot of dialetic of Lifeeath, Tyranny:Liberty does not end. One does not kill Death itself, it brokers an "easy peace" of sorts.
There is no "after" there is only something like the Hegelian "concrete, abstract, absolute" (that is thesis, antithesis, synthesis) of Being/Nonbeing->Becoming.
Perhaps this is exactly the point of the White Walkers, in a sense, a check on human "arrogance" and "excess." You know, just like Death itself is, no matter how powerful (or moral, or just, of kind, or whatever) you are, you still die eventually. "Thanatos" (that is, the "death drive itself, embodied) rears it's head. Except here, it's personified, as if a character.
So, I don't think they actually kill the Night Kill, but they likely try. It's more that Bran realizes Death cannot be "killed" rather, he "melds/joins/becomes one with the Night King, goes and "punishes" Cersei and destroys Kings Landing and the Iron Throne, then retreats back over the wall.
Any thoughts on anything coming from the constant reminders that Daenerys kept Tyrion around because of his intelligence?
If they play the siege of Winterfell straight and the "good guys" end up winning with severe casualties, maybe Tyrion will have a way to turn Cersei's employment of the Golden Company against her?
Whatever happens, the Golden Co. should have never signed on to be the bad guy mercs. of the final season. Maybe they should have figured out a way to bring some elephants.
infinite_array wrote:Any thoughts on anything coming from the constant reminders that Daenerys kept Tyrion around because of his intelligence?
If they play the siege of Winterfell straight and the "good guys" end up winning with severe casualties, maybe Tyrion will have a way to turn Cersei's employment of the Golden Company against her?
I kind of liked seeing who they were putting in the crypt because you Know there’s gonna be a fight in there. I wanna see Tyrion stab a wight. I wanna see that kid stab a wight.
Gordon Shumway wrote:Whatever happens, the Golden Co. should have never signed on to be the bad guy mercs. of the final season. Maybe they should have figured out a way to bring some elephants.
Even the Iron Bank couldn’t spring for all that CGI.
@H — Agree 100% that the WW/Others are elemental, and not something that can be destroyed or really even defeated. At least how GRRM probably conceived them.
However, the conventional thinking of these show runners makes this take less certain IMO. I think there’s a chance in their narrative that the hero defeats the dark lord with his magic sword and gets the girl (aunt?). I hope not and think not...but it’s possible.
I think it’s because she’s not particularly noticeably aged. Compare to Sophie Turner, who has very much crossed that boundary between a teenager and a woman. Maisie hasn’t to the same degree. Though that could also be because in the show she’s dressed quite boyishly, hiding her figure and that
Probably just me being a bit weird, but I still found it a surprisingly scene.
It's funny that they're only like a year and a half apart in age. Sophie Turner has looked older than Maisie does now since s3/s4. I did not like that scene. It really weirded me out.
But, taken from somewhere else, someone said this that has me thinking about where the show is actually going:
The Night's King is the personification of death. Humans cannot live forever, ergo The Night's King Cannot Be Killed.
The Last Hero was a diplomat, not a warrior. He negotiated a truce.
The terms of the pact are up for renewal and the Night's King will withdraw when satisfactory terms on a new compromise are met. [finite mortal life being, metaphorically, the compromise between immortality and death].
Violence is destructive. People who fight amongst people [over the throne] are doomed [and the iron throne, metaphor for self destruction as it is, why do you think its made of swords that literally cut and draw blood from the people who sit on it? along with it]
People who reject individual ambition and prioritize the team sport of survival [i.e. Jon kneeling for the greater good] will be spared and carry humanity on. Those who prefer to win the Game Of Thrones (i.e. Cersei) will be utterly annihilated.
I think this is the the most cogent analysis I've seen of this.
I'd guess that the implication here would then be, perhaps, that Bran sacrifices himself to "negotiate" with the Night King, Jon is spared somehow in giving up any further ambition. Dany nearly is killed, until she realizes that ambition to tyranny is akin to death, and then the Night King and company go south, and kill Cersei and smash King Landing along with the Iron Throne, the "root" of the evil at hand. The Night King is satiated again, tyranny averted, they all go back to Locke's "state of nature" minus perverse "human ambition" to get in the way.
I like it, because it's the kind of simplistic philosophy this show is likely aiming for...
Furthermore, I think Bran's cryptic statement, seemingly foreshadowing one(or both of their deaths) might foreshadow instead that the paradigm, the sot of dialetic of Lifeeath, Tyranny:Liberty does not end. One does not kill Death itself, it brokers an "easy peace" of sorts.
There is no "after" there is only something like the Hegelian "concrete, abstract, absolute" (that is thesis, antithesis, synthesis) of Being/Nonbeing->Becoming.
Perhaps this is exactly the point of the White Walkers, in a sense, a check on human "arrogance" and "excess." You know, just like Death itself is, no matter how powerful (or moral, or just, of kind, or whatever) you are, you still die eventually. "Thanatos" (that is, the "death drive itself, embodied) rears it's head. Except here, it's personified, as if a character.
So, I don't think they actually kill the Night Kill, but they likely try. It's more that Bran realizes Death cannot be "killed" rather, he "melds/joins/becomes one with the Night King, goes and "punishes" Cersei and destroys Kings Landing and the Iron Throne, then retreats back over the wall.
That reads like a bunch of Everyone is Jesus in Purgatory. Which makes it a load of crap. Not everything in the show is allegory. The Night King isn't death incarnate. The last hero didn't negotiate a truce. The Wall is a literally magical construct that keeps the Others out. The Iron Throne is just an awesome thing a awesome Targaryen did.
She wanted those elephants the way I want those ice spiders.
I hope we're not both destined to be disappointed.
The truth is, the thing I most want to see this season is those damn ice spiders.
By the way, how did Cersei afford the Golden Company? Maybe I am forgetting something, but last I heard after the Lannisters sacked Highgarden, they got ambushed and all the gold was either destroyed or stolen by Dany.
In terms of speculation, I think the Golden Company will turn on Cersei (or follow their real orders from the Iron bank), overthrow her, and ally with the north and either Dany or Jon:
The Iron Bank never wants to bank a loser
There are 100,000 undead in the Night King's army - enough to likely defeat the forces at Winterfell
Once Winterfell falls, all of those forces bolster the ranks of the Night King's army, making it impossible for the Lannisters to win
Bran The Builder is said to have constructed Winterfell as well as The Wall. Some (in-universe) say he did so with the help of The Children of the Forest.
Is it not possible, being no doubt familiar with White Walkers, that Winterfell has additional, specific defences others may be entirely ignorant of?
Ouze wrote: By the way, how did Cersei afford the Golden Company? Maybe I am forgetting something, but last I heard after the Lannisters sacked Highgarden, they got ambushed and all the gold was either destroyed or stolen by Dany.
The ambush destroyed grain wagons, it was mentioned that the gold had got safely through the gates of KL before the attack started.
Ouze wrote: By the way, how did Cersei afford the Golden Company? Maybe I am forgetting something, but last I heard after the Lannisters sacked Highgarden, they got ambushed and all the gold was either destroyed or stolen by Dany.
The ambush destroyed grain wagons, it was mentioned that the gold had got safely through the gates of KL before the attack started.
Bran The Builder is said to have constructed Winterfell as well as The Wall. Some (in-universe) say he did so with the help of The Children of the Forest.
Is it not possible, being no doubt familiar with White Walkers, that Winterfell has additional, specific defences others may be entirely ignorant of?
I was wondering something similar.
Relating back to the idea that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, as they used to say.
One suspects that this is now meant to be taken that as soon as there was not a Stark ruling in/from Winterfell it all kind of went wrong, but one did wonder for a while if Winterfell , originally, was designed to be the last refuge against the undead -- perhaps it's warded or whatever they do ( or perhaps did in the past bit do no longer) prevents undead from rising inside it.
That said one suspects I'll be quite happy with the ensuing bit battle and UH OH ! -- moments that will no doubt follow.
Fair play to Podrick though , he's come a long way eh ?
Not a bad setting up episode and quite a nice montage at the end (although into the Badlands recent one was better)
Some nice interplay between the chracters - especially since they really do need to kill a chunk of them off next week I think. As they have doen since episode one of S7, they have to keep trashing Dany's army to make it a proper war - hence Jon getting a dragon killed, bringing the plains/desert army north to fight in unfamiliar and unhelpful terrain.
I am still suspicious of Bran, he has tried to break up the alliance pressing Sam to tell Jon his heritage and now appears to tell them nothing of value - not sure if he is so detached from reality it does not matter or he is hoping to be "reunited with the Night King". Does he not do the scouting thing anymore and if he is one with space and time (or wahtever nonsense he is) he should know if dragonfire would kill the NK.
No one seems to have remembered that thanks to Jon, the NK has his own Dragon, so rellying on air suppoeriority is a bad idea, plus he has has his +13 javelins of Dragon Slaying.
I wonder if Aryria can impersonate a White Walker?
Still hoping the Gold Company have priestess's of the Lord of Light that will switch them to Dany.
I do think alot of people are trying to read alot more into a series of fantasy novels than was ever there. I donlt know where we are getting the NK is a personifcation of Death. He appears to be just a powerful supernatural creature akin to Nagash who seeks dominion over the world (and a bit of peace and quiet) when the living are gone.
Bran The Builder is said to have constructed Winterfell as well as The Wall. Some (in-universe) say he did so with the help of The Children of the Forest.
Is it not possible, being no doubt familiar with White Walkers, that Winterfell has additional, specific defences others may be entirely ignorant of?
IIRC, Winterfell was actually built in stages. The ground was never leveled like you would if you were building a large castle at once. The appropriately named and currently abandoned First Keep -- where Bran fell IIRC -- is the oldest section and was supposedly originally built by Bran the Builder. The crypt is also in this section and probably dates back to the earliest days too.
This is why some theorize that Winterfell is containing something. The crypt itself is unusually cold considering Winterfell is built over hot springs, and one section of the crypts has collapsed (was sealed?). Note that the statues of the past lords all have iron swords and direwolves at their feet, as if they're standing guard. We also have the phrase about the need for a Stark to be at Winterfell. Perhaps as a kind of warden? Is it a coincidence that the Others/WWs have chosen this winter to move on the south...a winter following a time when Stark rule at Winterfell was disrupted? GRRM continually notes that the iron swords of the statues have rusted, and that's the exact kind of symbolism that he likes to engage in to signal things to readers.
So could Winterfell have magical defenses? Sure...although they might be internal.
Speculative stuff, but that's how deeply layered GRRM's world is. However, I expect that what we get in the show will continue to be a highly straightforward, 160-character version of the books. Just look at how everything involving Azor Ahai, the Lord of Light/Great Other, the Prince that was Promised, etc. has fallen away in the name of keeping the pedal to the metal and bringing the story to a conclusion.
So no, I don't expect any magical defenses to show up on GoT, nor do I expect any resolution to the mysteries surrounding the Wall, Winterfell, the origin of the Starks, etc. You might be on to something in the books though, if GRRM lives long enough to tell his version of the story.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: I do think alot of people are trying to read alot more into a series of fantasy novels than was ever there. I donlt know where we are getting the NK is a personifcation of Death. He appears to be just a powerful supernatural creature akin to Nagash who seeks dominion over the world (and a bit of peace and quiet) when the living are gone.
There are death themes all over ASOIAF, and the Others/WWs certainly occupy that conceptual space. And there's a remarkable amount of depth in the books. If people didn't 'read into things', then no one would have figured out that R + L =J. Symbolism and small textual clues were key to putting it all together.
Mr Morden wrote: Not a bad setting up episode and quite a nice montage at the end (although into the Badlands recent one was better)
Some nice interplay between the chracters - especially since they really do need to kill a chunk of them off next week I think. As they have doen since episode one of S7, they have to keep trashing Dany's army to make it a proper war - hence Jon getting a dragon killed, bringing the plains/desert army north to fight in unfamiliar and unhelpful terrain.
I am still suspicious of Bran, he has tried to break up the alliance pressing Sam to tell Jon his heritage and now appears to tell them nothing of value - not sure if he is so detached from reality it does not matter or he is hoping to be "reunited with the Night King". Does he not do the scouting thing anymore and if he is one with space and time (or wahtever nonsense he is) he should know if dragonfire would kill the NK.
No one seems to have remembered that thanks to Jon, the NK has his own Dragon, so rellying on air suppoeriority is a bad idea, plus he has has his +13 javelins of Dragon Slaying.
I wonder if Aryria can impersonate a White Walker?
Still hoping the Gold Company have priestess's of the Lord of Light that will switch them to Dany.
I do think alot of people are trying to read alot more into a series of fantasy novels than was ever there. I donlt know where we are getting the NK is a personifcation of Death. He appears to be just a powerful supernatural creature akin to Nagash who seeks dominion over the world (and a bit of peace and quiet) when the living are gone.
I think Bran is doing a Dr Strange. He's seen the future, and he knows enough that this is their only chance, and he has to let it play out. If he says 'oh, and watch out for this', it skews things. We don't fully know (I may be wrong) if he sees A Future, The Future, or Multiple Futures. I suspect the latter, and he's guiding events towards the best possible outcome. But being all sagely and that, is careful to make his ripples as small as possible, cutting down the variables?
Lance845 wrote: That reads like a bunch of Everyone is Jesus in Purgatory. Which makes it a load of crap. Not everything in the show is allegory. The Night King isn't death incarnate. The last hero didn't negotiate a truce. The Wall is a literally magical construct that keeps the Others out. The Iron Throne is just an awesome thing a awesome Targaryen did.
OK,
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think Bran is doing a Dr Strange. He's seen the future, and he knows enough that this is their only chance, and he has to let it play out. If he says 'oh, and watch out for this', it skews things. We don't fully know (I may be wrong) if he sees A Future, The Future, or Multiple Futures. I suspect the latter, and he's guiding events towards the best possible outcome. But being all sagely and that, is careful to make his ripples as small as possible, cutting down the variables?
I don't think he can "see" the future per se, but rather, recognizes the historical wheel that they are in. He knows that the paradigm of the Night King curbing human excess/immorality does not end. But I think he is aiming things toward taking his "proper role" as the Three-Eyed Raven, that of the mediator between historical precedent and possible outcome, i.e. something like facticity vs transcendence.
There’s still Bran’s time travel to factor in. Introducing that and having it have consequences wouldn’t make sense just to use it as exposition dump when you have parallel means of bringing in the same info. Plus, like most of the big final twists, it’s a big part of the first book with Old Nan telling Bran how important his name has been throughout history. Much like most of Jon’s page time being dedicated to just how bizarre it is that honorable Ned has a bastard.
Mr Morden wrote: Not a bad setting up episode and quite a nice montage at the end (although into the Badlands recent one was better)
Some nice interplay between the chracters - especially since they really do need to kill a chunk of them off next week I think. As they have doen since episode one of S7, they have to keep trashing Dany's army to make it a proper war - hence Jon getting a dragon killed, bringing the plains/desert army north to fight in unfamiliar and unhelpful terrain.
I am still suspicious of Bran, he has tried to break up the alliance pressing Sam to tell Jon his heritage and now appears to tell them nothing of value - not sure if he is so detached from reality it does not matter or he is hoping to be "reunited with the Night King". Does he not do the scouting thing anymore and if he is one with space and time (or wahtever nonsense he is) he should know if dragonfire would kill the NK.
No one seems to have remembered that thanks to Jon, the NK has his own Dragon, so rellying on air suppoeriority is a bad idea, plus he has has his +13 javelins of Dragon Slaying.
I wonder if Aryria can impersonate a White Walker?
Still hoping the Gold Company have priestess's of the Lord of Light that will switch them to Dany.
I do think alot of people are trying to read alot more into a series of fantasy novels than was ever there. I donlt know where we are getting the NK is a personifcation of Death. He appears to be just a powerful supernatural creature akin to Nagash who seeks dominion over the world (and a bit of peace and quiet) when the living are gone.
I think Bran is doing a Dr Strange. He's seen the future, and he knows enough that this is their only chance, and he has to let it play out. If he says 'oh, and watch out for this', it skews things. We don't fully know (I may be wrong) if he sees A Future, The Future, or Multiple Futures. I suspect the latter, and he's guiding events towards the best possible outcome. But being all sagely and that, is careful to make his ripples as small as possible, cutting down the variables?
That is my issue with Bran as well. If you could foretell what will happen, why not warn of the dangers (crypt being unsafe, etc.) unless he either cannot see it clearly or is unwilling to reveal it. In either case, a simple one or two line explanation as to why he is not saying anything would be helpful. Maybe it was said and I missed it...
In any case, I am greatly looking forward to the big battle, but will mourn the characters lost. Here is my personal list of who can go during the battle in the north and I will feel no remorse:
- Dany
- Bran
- Varys
- Missandei
- Grey Worm
- Jorah
- Lyanna (OMG she is insufferably arrogant...)
Anyone else would truly be a sad day for me; however, the above list can't leave soon enough for me...
Being the Three Eyed Raven, he's no longer human. That's reflected in some seemingly throwaway lines 'Bran, you're a grown man'....'Almost'.
It could be he's gone full on Doctor Manhattan - so far removed from actually being human, that the niceities that come with our foibles just don't register. He's clearly playing a very important role, so is simply focussing on that. The cost is just your standards Butcher's Bill, those come with any battle.
And I'm not even sure, from the show only, that Bran can actually Time Travel? Yes, we've seen he can sort of affect the past. But to what actual extent? And if he needed to, surely he'd have done so by now? Being able to be heard, and being able to take actual, extensive action are very different matters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of who is on the chopping block?
I think money has to go on Brienne. Narratively, her arc is complete. She's completed all her oaths (took out Stannis, got Arya and Sansa back to Winterfell, one way or the other), and she's become a proper Knight.
So she seemingly has nothing left to do, except die a heroic death and enter the annals of history.
Mr Morden wrote: Not a bad setting up episode and quite a nice montage at the end (although into the Badlands recent one was better)
Some nice interplay between the chracters - especially since they really do need to kill a chunk of them off next week I think. As they have doen since episode one of S7, they have to keep trashing Dany's army to make it a proper war - hence Jon getting a dragon killed, bringing the plains/desert army north to fight in unfamiliar and unhelpful terrain.
I am still suspicious of Bran, he has tried to break up the alliance pressing Sam to tell Jon his heritage and now appears to tell them nothing of value - not sure if he is so detached from reality it does not matter or he is hoping to be "reunited with the Night King". Does he not do the scouting thing anymore and if he is one with space and time (or wahtever nonsense he is) he should know if dragonfire would kill the NK.
No one seems to have remembered that thanks to Jon, the NK has his own Dragon, so rellying on air suppoeriority is a bad idea, plus he has has his +13 javelins of Dragon Slaying.
I wonder if Aryria can impersonate a White Walker?
Still hoping the Gold Company have priestess's of the Lord of Light that will switch them to Dany.
I do think alot of people are trying to read alot more into a series of fantasy novels than was ever there. I donlt know where we are getting the NK is a personifcation of Death. He appears to be just a powerful supernatural creature akin to Nagash who seeks dominion over the world (and a bit of peace and quiet) when the living are gone.
I think Bran is doing a Dr Strange. He's seen the future, and he knows enough that this is their only chance, and he has to let it play out. If he says 'oh, and watch out for this', it skews things. We don't fully know (I may be wrong) if he sees A Future, The Future, or Multiple Futures. I suspect the latter, and he's guiding events towards the best possible outcome. But being all sagely and that, is careful to make his ripples as small as possible, cutting down the variables?
That is my issue with Bran as well. If you could foretell what will happen, why not warn of the dangers (crypt being unsafe, etc.) unless he either cannot see it clearly or is unwilling to reveal it. In either case, a simple one or two line explanation as to why he is not saying anything would be helpful. Maybe it was said and I missed it...
In any case, I am greatly looking forward to the big battle, but will mourn the characters lost. Here is my personal list of who can go during the battle in the north and I will feel no remorse:
- Dany
- Bran
- Varys
- Missandei
- Grey Worm
- Jorah
- Lyanna (OMG she is insufferably arrogant...)
Anyone else would truly be a sad day for me; however, the above list can't leave soon enough for me...
Eveyone on your list apart from Brana nd Lyanna is a sad loss for me
My list of "very pleased to see them go":
Sam
Jon
Bran
Sadly at least two of them are safe behind miles think plot armour.
And there's a remarkable amount of depth in the books. If people didn't 'read into things',
No more than any other good fantasy novel - plenty of them out there with more developed worlds. As a Steven Erikson fan, large time scales within the plot are not unusual - and we are talkinig alot longer than a mere few millenia
People credit Martin with a lot more ability than he has. The books are dense but most things are in the open. Things that aren't are things he was thinking of fleshing out and didnt get to. Honestly the actual world/writing isnt as good as several series out there. Try David Drakes Isles series, Stackpole's Dragonwar (I think) or Sanderson's epic stuff.
I enjoyed the episode. Lots of little nods for those of us in it from the beginning. Lots of reconnects. A great set up for what's to come and to remind me of the good times with various characters. This season has been solid so far. Bow for 2 episodes of mayhem!!!!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Unless he's telling a fib, to prevent others from pressing him for details.
When it comes to fixing on a future, the less said to others, the better?
Sure. And Sam is telling a fib. Turns out HE is reagars son. He just doesnt want the resposibility. There is equal evidence for that as there is Bran seeing the future. In that there is none. We have never seen bran see the future. He never told anyone he could. And he has never had a conversation with anyone where he made predicitions that couldnt have come from any other person with absolute clarity of the present.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Apprently, books say Bran should be able to see the Future, as the previous Three Eyed Raven could.
But I very much accept your point we've no evidence of that in the show
Its ages ago but did the previous raven guy not predict Bran would be the next one and had seen it ect? Might not be remembering correctly as this part of the show never really interested me.
Just because Max Van Sydow can do something doesn't mean anybody can . Also, it doesn't mean, at least as I understand, that he can see the future, only all of the present. He knows what Bran is/can do, not what he will. Incidentally, Sam Jackson has been cited as having the highest grossing films under his belt as an actor. Van Sydow cannot be far behind.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Just because Max Van Sydow can do something doesn't mean anybody can . Also, it doesn't mean, at least as I understand, that he can see the future, only all of the present. He knows what Bran is/can do, not what he will.
Yup. And in the books bran cannot even see whatever he wants. He can only see through the faces in the weirwood trees. His only past vision in the book is a young ned stark in the godswood in winterfel after he came home with jon.
Also, don't forget, this isn't the first time he faced the literal incarnation of death. Not exactly a subtle reference to one of the more iconic symbolic representations of humanity's fate.
Lance845 wrote: R+L=J isnt symbolism. They all but say it in the clues of the first book.
No symbolism needed.
Textual clues supported by symbolism like Ghost, the white-haired pup found away from the rest of the litter. So are you claiming you had R + L = J right off the bat, before anyone? I don't believe that.
And I wasn't really talking about 'worldbuilding'. It really isn't hard to make up places and names and fake histories. What's really smart about GRRM's writing is the way events are foreshadowed or explained through deliberately placed clues, and through the POV perspective.
At one point in the books, a story is told to a character about the history of a sign in front of an inn. Taken at face value, it's a story about a sign. But if you read just beneath the surface, that story is hinting that another character isn't who he says he is. I appreciate that level of thoughtfulness in the writing.
Lance845 wrote: R+L=J isnt symbolism. They all but say it in the clues of the first book.
No symbolism needed.
I'm not sure you really get what symbolism is. The fact that you used symbols and put it in an equation tells me that. Math is based on symbods. So is the written word. It isn't some sort of mythological esoteric thing that only nerdy people talk about with Joyce. It is something you use everyday. In order for you to express your thoughts in your post, symbolism needed. If you reply in the negative, oh look, you used symbols to do so.
I've broadly enjoyed the books, but for me they aren't startlingly-layered, symbolism-laden narrative genius. They're delightfully-detailed world-building and an interesting story marred by endless sledgehammered red herrings and meandering threads that desperately need an editor.
I don't think GRRM will ever finish TWOW or ADOS but if he does I don't expect much to come of the potential he's set up for the magical history of the Starks. Probably for the best because it gives the gang that love the books and love griping about the show free-reign to enjoy assuming that it would have been a beautifully realised literary masterpiece, and that'll help gloss over the disappointment of it never arriving.
Lance845 wrote: R+L=J isnt symbolism. They all but say it in the clues of the first book.
No symbolism needed.
Textual clues supported by symbolism like Ghost, the white-haired pup found away from the rest of the litter. So are you claiming you had R + L = J right off the bat, before anyone? I don't believe that.
And I wasn't really talking about 'worldbuilding'. It really isn't hard to make up places and names and fake histories. What's really smart about GRRM's writing is the way events are foreshadowed or explained through deliberately placed clues, and through the POV perspective.
At one point in the books, a story is told to a character about the history of a sign in front of an inn. Taken at face value, it's a story about a sign. But if you read just beneath the surface, that story isparentsg that another character isn't who he says he is. I appreciate that level of thoughtfulness in the writing.
It wasnt long before anyone. I started reading the books around when the 3rd came out. Every clue about it is in the first book. It was a theory back then.
Let me spell it out.
Ned stark is the best guy in the books who does everything, including marrying caitlyn, because of duty. He is the single least likely person to cheat on his wife under any circumstance.
There is only one time he raised his voice to cait. It was when she asked about jons mother and ned said "dont you ever ask me about jon!. Ever!"... The sub text being because he doesnt and wont lie to his wife.
When he gets stabbed in the leg fighting jamie he has fever dreams and remebers the tower. How 7 stood agaisnt 3 and only 2 survived. The smell of blood and blue rose. His sister saying "promise me ned. Promise me." Also, that tower was directly after the red keep seige. Reagar was long dead on the trident. Danny (not born yet) her brother and their mom the queen were at dragon stone ready to sail east if the red keep fell. Jamie was left to protect the king.
So why the feth were 3 of the remaining 6 kingsguard protecting this gak tower? Because the crown prince was being born inside.
The only other survivor was howland reed. The father of mira and jogen reed. Who after the tower went home to the cranog and never left his seat again. The subtext being they went to war on a lie for all the wrong reasons. Seeing lyana die in childbirth was the last straw. He vowed to keep his mouth shut and went home.
Everyone besides robert says reagar was the greatest dude in the land and nothing implies he was a rapist.
When reagar won the jousting tourney he gave his token (traditionally given to the most beautiful woman) to lyana instead of his wife.
All of that is in the first book. Its not symbolism. Its the clues that lay it all out. And since ned and howland are the only people alive at the tower, howland is the only person alive who knows jons parentage after the first book. In 4 other books all you get is a few references to reinforce how good a dude reagar was.
Lance845 wrote: R+L=J isnt symbolism. They all but say it in the clues of the first book.
No symbolism needed.
I'm not sure you really get what symbolism is. The fact that you used symbols and put it in an equation tells me that. Math is based on symbods. So is the written word. It isn't some sort of mythological esoteric thing that only nerdy people talk about with Joyce. It is something you use everyday. In order for you to express your thoughts in your post, symbolism needed. If you reply in the negative, oh look, you used symbols to do so.
Symbolism in the arts context is using things as metaphors for other things. Ghost being white while dannys hair is SILVER in the books COULD be symbolism to represent his true heritage. (Also ghosts eyes are red because hes an actual albino. The targaryens eyes are violet so its gak symbolism). But its not what i used to figure out the theory of jons parents.
A symbol is something that has a meaning inherent to itself and has a meaning beyond itself, it doesn't matter if you are talking about the arts or any other field of study (I'm a linguist by training, but I teach lit. and film in my profession.). You can take that as basic language (universal symbols like letters or stop signs or crosses), or natural items that carry meaning because they are precharged (ravens as death or owls as wisdom) or charged symbols (where an artist uses techniques like repetition or emphasis to create a link between ideas and don't carry any weight beyond the text). It isn't something that needs to be mystified. We do it every single day of our lives. That said, to paraphrase Freud, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. In which case one needs evidence to support the claim that a particular image/thing should be interpreted in some sort of symbolic manner.
Read once, most of the clues are hard to spot because you lack the context to recognize its importance. They answer questions you’re not yet asking. Reading the first book again after the third makes a lot of the clues pretty obvious.
The initial trilogy is pretty brilliant and sets up the ending pretty phenomenally. Unfortunately instead of time skipping past most of the stuff that makes up the 4th and 5th books, things dragged in trying to set the stage which gave people plenty of time to solve the puzzle, which lead to stuff added to try and keep people guessing which dragged things out even longer.
Had Arya handed over the coin and not be seen until she fed Greyjoy the Greyjoy’s.... we’d have a series as strong as it’s first half through to the end. Hopefully given how much of the end is in the first book, we’ll still get a finale that lives up to the start.
What he said. The first 3 novels set up something pretty great. Probably the best lead up I ever read. And most of the signs of where it was going were there upon rereading. I think that's what made me so mad at 4 and 5. They were some of the most pointless and meandering novels on par with some of Jordan's worst works.
I've been pretty happy with most of the TV show. Especially with the changes regarding Dani. It's not a surprise to me the worst seasons were the one that covered books 4 and 5. The seasons on the show runners own aren't as good as the first 3 books based shows but they are so amazingly better than Martin's latest work its unreal.
Sorry for the rant. Book 4 and 5 pissed me off because they squandered something special.
So seeing this, I totally see Dany leaving the fight on Drogon, but Rheagal staying with Jon. Dany seemed really upset at the Idea of someone with a claim to the throne, So I bet she will leave and try to take the throne and fortify the south.
I think the theory of the other targarian kid being Sam would be fun, but it's so clearly Jon.
I also think Briene will stick around, I think they "finished" her story as a fake out to make us think she's gonna die. But she's still sworn to protect Sansa and Arya and I think she'll do that forever and be like the #1 bestest knight in winterfel after the war.
Was kinda surprised that Sansa liked Theon so much, I know he helped her escape and stuff but I didn't see the kinda romantical stuff coming.
He's practically her brother, given they were raised together, and then her rescuer from the hands of the Boltons, which directly lead to their defeat and the end of their house, and the Starks retaking Winterfell.
Hulksmash wrote: What he said. The first 3 novels set up something pretty great. Probably the best lead up I ever read. And most of the signs of where it was going were there upon rereading. I think that's what made me so mad at 4 and 5. They were some of the most pointless and meandering novels on par with some of Jordan's worst works.
I've been pretty happy with most of the TV show. Especially with the changes regarding Dani. It's not a surprise to me the worst seasons were the one that covered books 4 and 5. The seasons on the show runners own aren't as good as the first 3 books based shows but they are so amazingly better than Martin's latest work its unreal.
Sorry for the rant. Book 4 and 5 pissed me off because they squandered something special.
Totally agree in all respects - books 4 aqnd 5 are absolutely awful.
I don't think Dany is not going to fly off in a sulk (again) although its possible now that Bran and Sam have fethed things up.
Theon has done very bad things - but who hasn;t.....
Theon has done very bad things - but who hasn;t.....
It's pretty high calibre bad things, though. Almost everyone in the show is pretty grey, but there are plenty characters who haven't ever gotten close to Theon's depths.
I'm all for redemptive arcs in fiction, but the efforts they (on the show and I suspect in the books should the last two ever arrive) put in to painting Jaime and Theon as reformed folks deserving of pretty blanket forgiveness (in universe with people they've really done over) I think is a stretch.
I have not read the books, so my knowledge of that is non-existent, but the hints from the beginning of the show about Jon were fairly apparent. Also, in speaking with people that did read the books, GRRM was pretty heavy handed in most of his references to point the readers towards a certain conclusion in most respects. This does not include the frequent surprise death/action clearly not part of the big puzzle.
IRT symbolism, I will agree this is not so much symbols to mean something, but clues that lead you to the truth. I think there are definitely a few symbols here and there to stand for something without coming out and saying it; however, most are clues and breadcrumbs leading the reader/viewer to an exact conclusion, not up for interpretation like a symbol would be.
I dunno, maybe the way it was shot or something, but I felt like there was more then brotherly love with sansa and theon. I guess Theon would need to get a special attachment installed if they take that any further.
Theon has done very bad things - but who hasn;t.....
It's pretty high calibre bad things, though. Almost everyone in the show is pretty grey, but there are plenty characters who haven't ever gotten close to Theon's depths.
I'm all for redemptive arcs in fiction, but the efforts they (on the show and I suspect in the books should the last two ever arrive) put in to painting Jaime and Theon as reformed folks deserving of pretty blanket forgiveness (in universe with people they've really done over) I think is a stretch.
Yeah you are right about that - neither reached Ramsey's level of wonderfully cheerful evil - or indeed delighted in it - although Jamie came close with his quip as he dropped a child to his apparent death. And at least Tyrion called him out on his relationship with Cersei - he knew what she was, what she did and why - he didn't care.
Its amusing how often people get excited about the "bad" things Dany does (and she is def no angel) but she has not raped anyone or thrown children out or windows.....or burned her daughter....
Are Theon and Jamie on Aryas list? Maybe she will deal with issue once the NKing is ash.
Theon has always had a thing for Sansa (even now he doesnlt have a.thing ) what she feels is less clear.
I did consider that myself, and it is a genuinely interesting point.
But I still don’t see those scenes as of anything approaching a romantic nature. Just a trusted friend, who worked hard to redeem himself (don’t underestimate Theon breaking free from his conditioning) being welcomed back into the fold.
And Theon’s suffering is part of his redemptive arc. His actions prior are reprehensible - but did he really deserve all he got? All his life he’s been a victim of circumstance, and sought to make his distanced Father proud, especially when he was cast off so cruelly. Yes he’s a buttmunch, but not because he’s an inherently bad egg.
He’s been to hell and back, arguably suffering just as much as Sansa (both were horribly and repeatedly violated by Ramsay). Yet when it came to the crunch, he did the right thing. So I’ve empathy and even sympathy for him, without excusing his crimes.
So, I saw an genuinely interesting article speculating on the next few episodes of the show.
Basically, the article posits that the lack of any showing of the Night King in next week's previews is because he's not with the army of the dead. The group at Winterfell will probably win, with horrific casualties, but it won't matter.
Because the Night King took his dragon and flew to Kings Landing, who have no defenses and is basically ripe for the plucking.
It coincides with two earlier visions that Bran and Dany had - Bran's vision of the shadow of a single dragon flying over Kings Landing, and Dany's vision of a destroyed throne room with snow drifting down.
Just thinking... since Bran had that power to mind control Animals and Hodors, could he also mind control an undead thing to backstab the night king when he least expects it? Or possibly an undead dragon to gobble him up, also when he least expects it?
Grey Templar wrote: Jon should have clarified his revelation with "I don't want the Iron Throne, its all yours. If you want, this will remain a secret forever"
Or... "I love you. Marry me. Lets take that throne together."
Grey Templar wrote: Jon should have clarified his revelation with "I don't want the Iron Throne, its all yours. If you want, this will remain a secret forever"
Yep that would have been the best thing but he has never been that bright (esp with women)
Does King's Landing have any of the big ballistas to battle dragons? I certainly would have thought with all this time of Dany coming to KL that Cersei would have commissioned a bunch... Anyway, logic and strategy to the wind sometimes...
ikeulhu wrote: Considering it is briefly shown in the opening sequence, I would say that yes at least one anti-dragon ballista at King's Landing is indeed a thing.
Aye, but I have a feeling that undead Dragon will care about it even less than Drogon did.
Sure. But the dragon seems to have become faster since it was resurrected. It was unnaturally fast when they destroyed the wall. It’ll probably easily avoid the ballista.
Yup, it will be more of a problem than a non wight dragon, and will have whatever ballista avoidance capabilities are required for the showrunner's desired narrative .
I’d like to think no and I would have thought he would have had a parting scene with Daenerys (ala Barristan). They did talk in episode 2 but really that was more about what’s happening with Tyrion. If that was their last moment together I’d be pretty disappointed.
As an aside, I am really wracking my brain on who will be the one to kill the Night King. Jon, Jamie, Arya, Theon. Technically Jorah could but that would only happen if the Night King killed Dany and Iam not convinced that would happen.
I’d like to think no and I would have thought he would have had a parting scene with Daenerys (ala Barristan). They did talk in episode 2 but really that was more about what’s happening with Tyrion. If that was their last moment together I’d be pretty disappointed.
As an aside, I am really wracking my brain on who will be the one to kill the Night King. Jon, Jamie, Arya, Theon. Technically Jorah could but that would only happen if the Night King killed Dany and Iam not convinced that would happen.
I'm pretty sure Jorah's going to die this week's episode, he already had his moment with Dany and Lyanna Mormont, and AFAIK his character arc is essentially done so he's ripe pickings for a wight mauling or WW stabbing. Similar to Avengers: Endgame, it's just a matter of who really has a role to play after the dust has settled.
I’d like to think no and I would have thought he would have had a parting scene with Daenerys (ala Barristan). They did talk in episode 2 but really that was more about what’s happening with Tyrion. If that was their last moment together I’d be pretty disappointed.
As an aside, I am really wracking my brain on who will be the one to kill the Night King. Jon, Jamie, Arya, Theon. Technically Jorah could but that would only happen if the Night King killed Dany and Iam not convinced that would happen.
I'm pretty sure Jorah's going to die this week's episode, he already had his moment with Dany and Lyanna Mormont, and AFAIK his character arc is essentially done so he's ripe pickings for a wight mauling or WW stabbing. Similar to Avengers: Endgame, it's just a matter of who really has a role to play after the dust has settled.
I’d be really disappointed if that was Dany and Jorahs last scene together. They’ve been on this adventure since season 1 I would have thought they would have put more emotion into it.
Personally I don’t think Jorahs arc was about redeeming himself for selling three slaves and earning the “forgiveness” of the North. Helping Dany liberate a continent more than made up for that. Jorah is really a supporting character for Daenerys and the whole unrequited love story is his arc. IMO the two characters fate is intrinsically linked as they have both been travelling the same adventure side by side.
To list a few things he could do:
- If Dany dies in childbirth he would watch over the child ala Ned Stark. “Promise me Jorah” This would bring the story full circle. This does tick all the boxes for bittersweet ending.
- He could be the 1000th Lord Commander. Taking up his fathers mantle.
- Dany could placate the Northern lords (fronted by Leanna) by marrying Jorah and claiming her child is actually his and not a the incest bastard of her nephew.
I don’t know. I doubt I would be sold if he just drops down dead fighting zombies as another casualty. It would be kind of lame to have kept him on and had Sam give him the Sword; just for another death.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, especially after last season I’ve really gotten tired of the constant confrontational attitude every character has towards Daenerys. She’s literally trying to save the world and has lost one of her dragons. Sam is monstrously out of line to suggest that Jon should overthrow her and deny her the throne which she’s earned over the course of the seasons. Why is Sansa being petty instead of winning Damy over to use her army to beat the dead and Cersei. Rather than be a player she is just being a nationalist, going out of her way to alienate an ally and risking her leaving for Essos in abdication.
I don’t get why nobody in Westeros is intimidated by the Dragons and thinks that picking a fight with Danny is a bad idea. All the lords of Westeros apparently think that siding with Cersei or plotting another Northern secession is a grand idea. I still do not understand why people are taking Cersei seriously as Queen and why this isn’t the restoration 1660; with dragons.
I’d like to think no and I would have thought he would have had a parting scene with Daenerys (ala Barristan). They did talk in episode 2 but really that was more about what’s happening with Tyrion. If that was their last moment together I’d be pretty disappointed.
As an aside, I am really wracking my brain on who will be the one to kill the Night King. Jon, Jamie, Arya, Theon. Technically Jorah could but that would only happen if the Night King killed Dany and Iam not convinced that would happen.
I'm pretty sure Jorah's going to die this week's episode, he already had his moment with Dany and Lyanna Mormont, and AFAIK his character arc is essentially done so he's ripe pickings for a wight mauling or WW stabbing. Similar to Avengers: Endgame, it's just a matter of who really has a role to play after the dust has settled.
I’d be really disappointed if that was Dany and Jorahs last scene together. They’ve been on this adventure since season 1 I would have thought they would have put more emotion into it.
Personally I don’t think Jorahs arc was about redeeming himself for selling three slaves and earning the “forgiveness” of the North. Helping Dany liberate a continent more than made up for that. Jorah is really a supporting character for Daenerys and the whole unrequited love story is his arc. IMO the two characters fate is intrinsically linked as they have both been travelling the same adventure side by side.
To list a few things he could do:
- If Dany dies in childbirth he would watch over the child ala Ned Stark. “Promise me Jorah” This would bring the story full circle. This does tick all the boxes for bittersweet ending.
- He could be the 1000th Lord Commander. Taking up his fathers mantle.
- Dany could placate the Northern lords (fronted by Leanna) by marrying Jorah and claiming her child is actually his and not a the incest bastard of her nephew.
I don’t know. I doubt I would be sold if he just drops down dead fighting zombies as another casualty. It would be kind of lame to have kept him on and had Sam give him the Sword; just for another death.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, especially after last season I’ve really gotten tired of the constant confrontational attitude every character has towards Daenerys. She’s literally trying to save the world and has lost one of her dragons. Sam is monstrously out of line to suggest that Jon should overthrow her and deny her the throne which she’s earned over the course of the seasons. Why is Sansa being petty instead of winning Damy over to use her army to beat the dead and Cersei. Rather than be a player she is just being a nationalist, going out of her way to alienate an ally and risking her leaving for Essos in abdication.
I don’t get why nobody in Westeros is intimidated by the Dragons and thinks that picking a fight with Danny is a bad idea. All the lords of Westeros apparently think that siding with Cersei or plotting another Northern secession is a grand idea. I still do not understand why people are taking Cersei seriously as Queen and why this isn’t the restoration 1660; with dragons.
It does make zero sense, especialyl since Dany could have come over and unleashed the Dothraki and Dragons on Westros then restored order with the Unsullied. Would have been a quick easy campaign - exactly the same as her ancestors. But because she did not (and was advised against that) there is more room for petty jealousy and minor issues. However thats humanity for you - happens in history quite a bit.
She is also a Queen and thats always going to be a harder sell to the people.
Be quite amused if Jon did carry out Sam and Brans plan to destroy the alliance and she went - ok no problem nephew - I'll be off and rule Essos - send me a postcard wehn you have defeated the dead and Cersei.
Its aslo funny that people are so obsessed with Jons "right" of succession when that (like Dany's) comes from an previous invader - apparently thats all fine. Surely the "rightful" king (or queen) shoud be a descendant from before the Targaryrian invasion?
re killing the Night King - Sigh - its going to be bloody Sam isn't it. ITs GRM on screen and apparently everyone loves him. I can see it ending with Sam on the throne as well - just because even now the vomit rising in my throat. I hope they prove me wrong and he dies.
I’d like to think no and I would have thought he would have had a parting scene with Daenerys (ala Barristan). They did talk in episode 2 but really that was more about what’s happening with Tyrion. If that was their last moment together I’d be pretty disappointed.
As an aside, I am really wracking my brain on who will be the one to kill the Night King. Jon, Jamie, Arya, Theon. Technically Jorah could but that would only happen if the Night King killed Dany and Iam not convinced that would happen.
I'm pretty sure Jorah's going to die this week's episode, he already had his moment with Dany and Lyanna Mormont, and AFAIK his character arc is essentially done so he's ripe pickings for a wight mauling or WW stabbing. Similar to Avengers: Endgame, it's just a matter of who really has a role to play after the dust has settled.
I’d be really disappointed if that was Dany and Jorahs last scene together. They’ve been on this adventure since season 1 I would have thought they would have put more emotion into it.
Personally I don’t think Jorahs arc was about redeeming himself for selling three slaves and earning the “forgiveness” of the North. Helping Dany liberate a continent more than made up for that. Jorah is really a supporting character for Daenerys and the whole unrequited love story is his arc. IMO the two characters fate is intrinsically linked as they have both been travelling the same adventure side by side.
To list a few things he could do:
- If Dany dies in childbirth he would watch over the child ala Ned Stark. “Promise me Jorah” This would bring the story full circle. This does tick all the boxes for bittersweet ending.
- He could be the 1000th Lord Commander. Taking up his fathers mantle.
- Dany could placate the Northern lords (fronted by Leanna) by marrying Jorah and claiming her child is actually his and not a the incest bastard of her nephew.
I don’t know. I doubt I would be sold if he just drops down dead fighting zombies as another casualty. It would be kind of lame to have kept him on and had Sam give him the Sword; just for another death.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, especially after last season I’ve really gotten tired of the constant confrontational attitude every character has towards Daenerys. She’s literally trying to save the world and has lost one of her dragons. Sam is monstrously out of line to suggest that Jon should overthrow her and deny her the throne which she’s earned over the course of the seasons. Why is Sansa being petty instead of winning Damy over to use her army to beat the dead and Cersei. Rather than be a player she is just being a nationalist, going out of her way to alienate an ally and risking her leaving for Essos in abdication.
I don’t get why nobody in Westeros is intimidated by the Dragons and thinks that picking a fight with Danny is a bad idea. All the lords of Westeros apparently think that siding with Cersei or plotting another Northern secession is a grand idea. I still do not understand why people are taking Cersei seriously as Queen and why this isn’t the restoration 1660; with dragons.
It does make zero sense, especialyl since Dany could have come over and unleashed the Dothraki and Dragons on Westros then restored order with the Unsullied. Would have been a quick easy campaign - exactly the same as her ancestors. But because she did not (and was advised against that) there is more room for petty jealousy and minor issues. However thats humanity for you - happens in history quite a bit.
She is also a Queen and thats always going to be a harder sell to the people.
Be quite amused if Jon did carry out Sam and Brans plan to destroy the alliance and she went - ok no problem nephew - I'll be off and rule Essos - send me a postcard wehn you have defeated the dead and Cersei.
Its aslo funny that people are so obsessed with Jons "right" of succession when that (like Dany's) comes from an previous invader - apparently thats all fine. Surely the "rightful" king (or queen) shoud be a descendant from before the Targaryrian invasion?
re killing the Night King - Sigh - its going to be bloody Sam isn't it. ITs GRM on screen and apparently everyone loves him. I can see it ending with Sam on the throne as well - just because even now the vomit rising in my throat. I hope they prove me wrong and he dies.
Jorah I really like but thats no help.
It's a previous invader who conquered the 7 separate kingdoms, united them into one, and created the Iron throne.
THAT King and THAT throne has no previous line of succession. All the other kingdoms swore fealty for more than a thousand years.
That's an opening. Mass enchantment: fiery swords.
Pretty effective for the following visual of people getting wiped the frak out.
And now they'll probably come back with Undead Dothraki. Oh joy.
Apparently only Dragons matter. Unless Melisandre can pull something off the gang is royally fracked.
Night King maxed out the frost tree.
Woo, first character dead is Edd the now expendable. Poor guy.
LMAO @ the dragon on dragon mid air collision.
Took 24 minutes to finally fall back and now the Unsulled will die fighting a defensive retreat.
I have a feeling that their is a Wight dragon in this nasty fog.
Bran chilling in the Godswood like frack me.
Fly over shot of a lot of Wights. Like every Wildling to ever live.
Grey Worm about to die lighting the trenches.
Oh snap, this is Melisandre's finest hour. Talk about a long haul character pay off if this works.
OMG it did. She's in the lead for MVP now.
Bran out here dispensing wisdom and cheering Theon up. I like him.
Wights make a 'living' bridge over the fire. Nice move.
Why do they not have oil to stop this World War Z gak?
All of this would be solved with wildfire. Cersei take notes.
Arya is busying soloing the army. 20 kill combo.
Lyanna died getting a legendary kill. Gut wrenching moment. Poor girl. At least she went out like a warrior.
Arya motivated Clegane to unfrack himself.
Dragon battle!
Arya sneaking around. Smooth stealth kill. I'm waiting for a jump scare.
And here's the running scene from the trailer. I swear if she dies.
There's no way they survive this. I'm curious to see how anyone gets away.
Beric finally dies for good. At least he finally gets to rest.
If Arya kills the Night King I will have no words.
The dragon battle we've all been waiting for finally!
Looks like Wight Dragon is dead, but dragon fire failed to kill the Night King! It's going to be Obsidian only.
And the Night King just rezzed everybody including Edd and Lyanna. Yep, everyone is screwed. Looks like Jon Snow is finally done.
The Crypts that were Promised! GG everyone.
This episode just keeps reaching ever increasing levels of completely fracked.
Only way anyone survive is if Arya kills the NK or something like that.
And she did exactly that. Show over. Time to go home.
Resolving the White Walker arc with 3 episodes left. Arya killing the Night King. Jon and Dany doing next to nothing. No answers.
Personally, I don't particularly mind because there was no good resolution to fighting an army of undead and GoT went off the rails about 2-3 seasons ago so now it's just all spectacle. There's a reason why most zombie movies are just survival and never victory. The instances I can think of in media where an undead army is defeated always go back to the leader being killed or their vessel for creation being destroyed i.e. The Chronicles of Prydain (Black Cauldron destroyed, Death-Lord killed) and Wrath of the Lich King (Arthas killed and replaced).
Overall great episode, the characters that have lines that died were ones I wasn't expecting. Dragon battle was great. Wish they showed the wolf for more than 3 seconds.. where did he go? Off smelling zombie butts somewhere?
From here on out, whatever the series has planned for any sort of climactic battle for the throne will sort of seem anticlimactic. Maybe they aren't going for a big final battle?
Victory over the millenia old evil at the cost of only five main characters, and only two of whom that really mattered!
(Plus tens of thousands of soldiers and a few hundred civilians, but who's counting?)
The episode kind of felt like fast food, the better kind? Like, it tasted alright going down but it's not filling, and left a bad aftertaste.
And yeah, it feels like any battle or conflict after this is just... wastful? They literally just beat the world ending evil. Now go take your dragons and turn Cersei into a b!tch-flambe. Show over.
Don't they still have to settle all the kingdom stuff now? Big bad is gone,
there's no pressing need for a team-up. Lyanna isn't available to shame
the North. They can go back to War of the Eleventy kingdoms or
whatever and feel safe in knowing that the Wights aren't coming for
some indeterminate time in the future.
Basically, this is Babylon 5 season 4. Season 5 doesn't matter, so the
last 3 episodes are settling the Earth Civil War stuff.
