Just like it says in the subject I was wondering how other peoples armies deal with Castelian/Titans with their army/factions?
I personally like to play Crimson Fist even in ITC and it seems like unless I'm willing to take a Knight/Castelian myself Adeptus Astartes have no way to deal with these powerful units. To me it seems like most peoples solution is to just ally in other factions that i.e. a knight or something like Astra Militrum. I'm fine with soup in 40K so I don't really want to limit that.
Ignoring them or slowly grinding away at them with small arms.
The sisters heavy tanks got a big buff from the beta dex, but with average rolls 3 exorcists will only manage 4 wounds between them (closer to 5 with a support character).
10 Novokh Scythe Lychguard with the +1 STR stratagem but getting them in melee with all the deep strike nerfs plus necrons mobility is almost impossible
The key is to not kill them with guns. It just too hard. Almost nothing is worth the investment. You should do it in melee, which gives it extra synerhy with Guard cause Infantry/Bullgryns choke up and block your melee access. This would be much less of a problem if the Fly nerf was reverted, but consider it an unintended consequences.
In games where I manage to kill a Castellan it usually involves getting to it in melee; Vertus Praetors do a good job of getting damage through but they're hard to work into a list as allies because the cost of the detachment is so high.
Space Marines don't really have the right tools; they don't have melee units that can get there, or ranged units that put out enough volume of S8+ to make a difference. If you do want to try grinding a Castellan down from a distance the Sicaran Venator (Forge World) does help; it can hide out of LOS since it moves and fires at no penalty, and gives the Castellan a to-hit penalty if it gets damage through.
SW hammernator with support.
2-6 attacks each depending on how many characters with +1 attack aura I can fit nearby. Hitting on 3s rerolling...
Or some wulfen hammers. In any case a smash wolford is in there with them for an extra 6 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling...
My general lists probably couldn't deal with it. I can barely deal with normal knights etc. Could I maybe think something up to try to address it? Maybe.
GW were smoking crack when they gave knights the ability to have a 3++, it really hurts lists that rely on shooting to kill them.
For my DAs, I'm thinking more of getting some DW knights into combat with it. So I need the reroll charge trait plus Ravenwing to clear the chaff before the knights arrive. A libby is also in the mix to cast aversion and mind worm.
Chaos can probably now get the job done by using chaincannons etc to clear chaff, while dropping in a smash lord or two from raptorial host.
However, while knights continue to be a safe choice with little downsides, I'll continue to bring Haywire/Doom/Jinx.
For Tau, Kauyon and Focused Fire with every gun I can get into range. Even small arms can really chip away at the Castellan with enough buffs on them.
Aside from that, my Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage could do the 28 damage to it....if I can make a hole for it, land Death Hex, make the charge, and not get clipped too bad in Overwatch. Tall order. My other armies have even less of a chance against it.
I'm kind of surprised that most SM armies don't like a Librarian with the spell that stops invulnerable saves from being taken. Considering that Knights seem to be the OPde jour I know I'd have one in my list.
Sicarion venators, don't care about your toughness or saves, just leadership, eat mortal wounds, rapier laser destroyers make mince meat of vehicles and monsters with 2d6 wound on a 4+ or 3d6 wounds on a 6+ and are mega cheap, if I get death hex off the same turn your knight is dead or crippled most of the time.
1. Subterranean Assualt the back door.
2. Charge. (cross fingers)
3. Survive overwatch. (cross fingers)
4. Scrap metal with the melta-cutter drill! (Ad6, WS3+, S10, AP-4, Dd6)
Relatively cheap and durable. Plus a bunch of expendable veterans ride along to use as meat shields or send in all directions for added anarchy. Bring a couple to accelerate the pain!
10 Novokh Scythe Lychguard with the +1 STR stratagem but getting them in melee with all the deep strike nerfs plus necrons mobility is almost impossible
Why not wraiths? They also benefit from Novokh, and whilst its only -2AP, -4AP is wasted against 4++ invuls. They'd be wounding on 5+ too, just like with warscythes. They can't use disruption fields, but at least they have a good chance of getting into combat.
Formosa wrote: Sicarion venators, don't care about your toughness or saves, just leadership, eat mortal wounds, rapier laser destroyers make mince meat of vehicles and monsters with 2d6 wound on a 4+ or 3d6 wounds on a 6+ and are mega cheap, if I get death hex off the same turn your knight is dead or crippled most of the time.
The Chaos one doesn't ignore Invulnerable saves, and the Loyalist one totally cares about your Toughness (though since it's S12 it doesn't really).
Chaos Leviathans, now, those have a gun that just does mortal wounds.
People are complaining about the castellen again, while clearly having no clue how it's rules actually work.
1 if your CF and infantry heavy, as you probably should be since marine vehicals don't benifit from chapter tactics.
A Castellen isn't going to be wasting it's time killing marines unlike killing guard so just ignoring it isn't a good plan.
2 You have the benefits to have a chance of clearing the line of guard, at which point you just beat on the castellen in CC where for the hard of reading it doesn't get the 3++ you all complaining about, also if it's a pure knights list it's not going to have 3++ when you shoot at it the second time as the list will have no CP.
Debuff with tempest's wrath, aversion, mind wipe, sicaran venator's main cannon, cloaked by storm until the knight is -4 to hit. Grind to death at leisure with power fists, hellblasters, aforementioned sicarans, lascannons, smite, probably after killing anything else dangerous.
Ice_can wrote: ...you just beat on the castellen in CC...
With Space Marines?
Yes might of heroes and thunderhammer or might of heroes on srike. And fight twice,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course their is also the recious method of sniper scouts with Guilliman for that reroll for MW spam.
Right, now get that CC character into combat with the Castellan when Fly doesn't work in the charge phase. It's not easy at all
Against knights that's not a problem, if your complaint is that guardsmen are too good a screen, you have a point.
But that's why turn 1 you hammer them with as much firepower as you can.
So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
Formosa wrote: Sicarion venators, don't care about your toughness or saves, just leadership, eat mortal wounds, rapier laser destroyers make mince meat of vehicles and monsters with 2d6 wound on a 4+ or 3d6 wounds on a 6+ and are mega cheap, if I get death hex off the same turn your knight is dead or crippled most of the time.
The Chaos one doesn't ignore Invulnerable saves, and the Loyalist one totally cares about your Toughness (though since it's S12 it doesn't really).
Chaos Leviathans, now, those have a gun that just does mortal wounds.
Did I mis remember the rules? Thought the chaos one could put mortal wounds down, been a while since I used it though.
dkoz wrote: So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
He gets an additional attack from MoH, so 5 attacks hitting on 2 rerolls 1's wounding on 2's (champion of humanity)
Fight again for 3CP or in death for 2CP.
dkoz wrote: So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
He gets an additional attack from MoH, so 5 attacks hitting on 2 rerolls 1's wounding on 2's (champion of humanity)
Fight again for 3CP or in death for 2CP.
It's a lot more than that. He gets plus one attacked for being part of death company, plus one attack from the stratagem you can play when a character fights, plus one attack from a bloody Angel psychic power and you take the Angel's wing relic to let him reroll charges and ignore OverWatch. Then you use a stratagem to let him roll 3 d6 for his charge, which he will really roll all three dice if he fails.
if you really want extra credit, you take the warlord trait to give his weapon plus one damage so it's a flat 4 instead of a flat 3.
All told you're looking at about 7 attacks with re-roll one to hit, hitting on a 3 plus, wounding on a 3 plus due to the blood Angel chapter tactic and a flat for damaged for everyone that gets through. Even before he fights twice it's a good 12 damage.
Ice_can wrote: ...you just beat on the castellen in CC...
With Space Marines?
Yes might of heroes and thunderhammer or might of heroes on srike. And fight twice,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course their is also the recious method of sniper scouts with Guilliman for that reroll for MW spam.
Right, now get that CC character into combat with the Castellan when Fly doesn't work in the charge phase. It's not easy at all
Against knights that's not a problem, if your complaint is that guardsmen are too good a screen, you have a point.
But that's why turn 1 you hammer them with as much firepower as you can.
Even against pure knights, you shouldn't be getting anywhere near him. Armigers can just as effectively push you out until you're looking at turn three or four
for every other allied faction, they're basically all capable of making a screen that will keep you from ever touching Castellan
dkoz wrote: So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
He gets an additional attack from MoH, so 5 attacks hitting on 2 rerolls 1's wounding on 2's (champion of humanity)
Fight again for 3CP or in death for 2CP.
It's a lot more than that. He gets plus one attacked for being part of death company, plus one attack from the stratagem you can play when a character fights, plus one attack from a bloody Angel psychic power and you take the Angel's wing relic to let him reroll charges and ignore OverWatch. Then you use a stratagem to let him roll 3 d6 for his charge, which he will really roll all three dice if he fails.
if you really want extra credit, you take the warlord trait to give his weapon plus one damage so it's a flat 4 instead of a flat 3.
All told you're looking at about 7 attacks with re-roll one to hit, hitting on a 3 plus, wounding on a 3 plus due to the blood Angel chapter tactic and a flat for damaged for everyone that gets through. Even before he fights twice it's a good 12 damage.
Ice_can wrote: ...you just beat on the castellen in CC...
With Space Marines?
Yes might of heroes and thunderhammer or might of heroes on srike. And fight twice,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course their is also the recious method of sniper scouts with Guilliman for that reroll for MW spam.
Right, now get that CC character into combat with the Castellan when Fly doesn't work in the charge phase. It's not easy at all
Against knights that's not a problem, if your complaint is that guardsmen are too good a screen, you have a point.
But that's why turn 1 you hammer them with as much firepower as you can.
even against pure nights, you shouldn't be getting anywhere near him. Armigers can just as effectively pull you out until you're looking at turn three or four
for every other allied faction, they're basically all capable of making a screen that will keep you from ever touching Castellan
Your using blood angles only strategums, who can dial their captain smash feather up to 19.
My build is actually chapter independent, hence why it's what I use as ultramarine, and will work for the OP, he has the advantage of being able to swap the thunderhammer for fist of vengeance.
If your take all comers list is struggling to kill a T7 3+Sv even with a 5++, it has bigger issues.
dkoz wrote: So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
He gets an additional attack from MoH, so 5 attacks hitting on 2 rerolls 1's wounding on 2's (champion of humanity)
Fight again for 3CP or in death for 2CP.
It's a lot more than that. He gets plus one attacked for being part of death company, plus one attack from the stratagem you can play when a character fights, plus one attack from a bloody Angel psychic power and you take the Angel's wing relic to let him reroll charges and ignore OverWatch. Then you use a stratagem to let him roll 3 d6 for his charge, which he will really roll all three dice if he fails.
if you really want extra credit, you take the warlord trait to give his weapon plus one damage so it's a flat 4 instead of a flat 3.
All told you're looking at about 7 attacks with re-roll one to hit, hitting on a 3 plus, wounding on a 3 plus due to the blood Angel chapter tactic and a flat for damaged for everyone that gets through. Even before he fights twice it's a good 12 damage.
Ice_can wrote: ...you just beat on the castellen in CC...
With Space Marines?
Yes might of heroes and thunderhammer or might of heroes on srike. And fight twice,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course their is also the recious method of sniper scouts with Guilliman for that reroll for MW spam.
Right, now get that CC character into combat with the Castellan when Fly doesn't work in the charge phase. It's not easy at all
Against knights that's not a problem, if your complaint is that guardsmen are too good a screen, you have a point.
But that's why turn 1 you hammer them with as much firepower as you can.
even against pure nights, you shouldn't be getting anywhere near him. Armigers can just as effectively pull you out until you're looking at turn three or four
for every other allied faction, they're basically all capable of making a screen that will keep you from ever touching Castellan
Your using blood angles only strategums, who can dial their captain smash feather up to 19.
My build is actually chapter independent, hence why it's what I use as ultramarine, and will work for the OP, he has the advantage of being able to swap the thunderhammer for fist of vengeance.
If your take all comers list is struggling to kill a T7 3+Sv even with a 5++, it has bigger issues.
'Smash Captain' as the term was originally appropriated for 8th, was BA exclusive. I guess colloquially you can use it for others, but if you're not BA you've probably already neutered yourself enough to make it meh.
It's not jilling 1 T7. First of all, Armigers can Rotate Ion Shields too, so they can be 4++. If your opponent sees threatening Smash Captains it also won't be just 1 you have to kill to reach the Castellan, he's going to make it multiple. You also have to kill them fast enough that the almost certainly accompanying Gallants/Wardens can't move to plug the hole.
As an example, I can take 3 Armigers, 2 Gallants and 1 Castellan in a 2k list. Using standard terrain (such as NOVA's, the Castellan can be placed on the hill in the corner. From the hill, the 9" Deep Strike bidder on the Castellan alone will prevent you from even landing on 2/4 sides. I place 2 Armigers on one side and the Gallants on the other with the third armiger.
It will take you way too long to get through that. Meanwhile, the Knight player has 2 objectives from the word go and be racking up kills.
dkoz wrote: So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
To run a proper Smash Cap, you really need to play Blood Angels as they have the following buffs available:
1. Relic Jump Pack negates overwatch and reroll failed charges.
2. Death Visions of Sanguinius (1CP pre-game strat. Gives Death Company keyword, +1A and a 6+++).
3. Warlord trait "Artisan of War" makes the Thunder Hammer 4 damage.
4. Red Rampage (1CP stratagem gives +D3 attacks for the entire combat phase which means it also works if you fight a 2nd time).
5. Descent of Angels (2CP stratagem, 3D6" charge out of Reserves).
6. Upon Wings of Fire (2CP stratagem allowing you to remove a JP unit from the table and redeploy as if coming in from Reserves. Turn 1 charges rule!)
7. Forlorn Fury (2CP stratagem, a DC unit a move and advance before the first turn).
8. Red Thirst chapter trait (+1 to Wound in first round of combat).
With all these toys, you can pretty much hit a Knight any time you want, as long as you can clear your Smash Captain a landing zone (and Forlorn Fury works even if you can't get the chaff cleared totally, as long as you can physically get through).
A BA Smash Captain will typically do 12 points of damage to a T8 Knight/Titan on the charge. If you fight a second time (Honour of the Chapter/Only in Death...), that becomes 24 points of damage from a single model! You will need to spend a lot of CPs to do it but it may be worth it to remove a big lynchpin model like a Castellan.
dkoz wrote: So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
He gets an additional attack from MoH, so 5 attacks hitting on 2 rerolls 1's wounding on 2's (champion of humanity)
Fight again for 3CP or in death for 2CP.
It's a lot more than that. He gets plus one attacked for being part of death company, plus one attack from the stratagem you can play when a character fights, plus one attack from a bloody Angel psychic power and you take the Angel's wing relic to let him reroll charges and ignore OverWatch. Then you use a stratagem to let him roll 3 d6 for his charge, which he will really roll all three dice if he fails.
if you really want extra credit, you take the warlord trait to give his weapon plus one damage so it's a flat 4 instead of a flat 3.
All told you're looking at about 7 attacks with re-roll one to hit, hitting on a 3 plus, wounding on a 3 plus due to the blood Angel chapter tactic and a flat for damaged for everyone that gets through. Even before he fights twice it's a good 12 damage.
Ice_can wrote: ...you just beat on the castellen in CC...
With Space Marines?
Yes might of heroes and thunderhammer or might of heroes on srike. And fight twice,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course their is also the recious method of sniper scouts with Guilliman for that reroll for MW spam.
Right, now get that CC character into combat with the Castellan when Fly doesn't work in the charge phase. It's not easy at all
Against knights that's not a problem, if your complaint is that guardsmen are too good a screen, you have a point.
But that's why turn 1 you hammer them with as much firepower as you can.
even against pure nights, you shouldn't be getting anywhere near him. Armigers can just as effectively pull you out until you're looking at turn three or four
for every other allied faction, they're basically all capable of making a screen that will keep you from ever touching Castellan
Your using blood angles only strategums, who can dial their captain smash feather up to 19.
My build is actually chapter independent, hence why it's what I use as ultramarine, and will work for the OP, he has the advantage of being able to swap the thunderhammer for fist of vengeance.
If your take all comers list is struggling to kill a T7 3+Sv even with a 5++, it has bigger issues.
'Smash Captain' as the term was originally appropriated for 8th, was BA exclusive. I guess colloquially you can use it for others, but if you're not BA you've probably already neutered yourself enough to make it meh.
It's not jilling 1 T7. First of all, Armigers can Rotate Ion Shields too, so they can be 4++. If your opponent sees threatening Smash Captains it also won't be just 1 you have to kill to reach the Castellan, he's going to make it multiple. You also have to kill them fast enough that the almost certainly accompanying Gallants/Wardens can't move to plug the hole.
As an example, I can take 3 Armigers, 2 Gallants and 1 Castellan in a 2k list. Using standard terrain (such as NOVA's, the Castellan can be placed on the hill in the corner. From the hill, the 9" Deep Strike bidder on the Castellan alone will prevent you from even landing on 2/4 sides. I place 2 Armigers on one side and the Gallants on the other with the third armiger.
It will take you way too long to get through that. Meanwhile, the Knight player has 2 objectives from the word go and be racking up kills.
If he's 4++'d his armigers, I'm shooting at the Castellen as it's sporting a 4++, or possibly even just blitzing one of those gallants off the table.
My Tau list will just pick on the 5++ knight's untill your out of CP, in that situation, my knight's are just going to shoot the 5++ invulnerable save knights to death, while shoving a gallant down your throat.
My Marines will pick on whatever is also only on a 5++.
Trying to batter through 1400 points of guard shielding a Castellen though they all have a problem with, the knights and Tau can just burry, the Castellen in firepower, my marines need to clear a path as they can't kill it with firepower.
Ignoring them or slowly grinding away at them with small arms.
The sisters heavy tanks got a big buff from the beta dex, but with average rolls 3 exorcists will only manage 4 wounds between them (closer to 5 with a support character).
You won't have a chance to kill his small units, the IK can swipe your hard hitter turn 1 before they level their bolters at the IG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm kind of surprised that most SM armies don't like a Librarian with the spell that stops invulnerable saves from being taken. Considering that Knights seem to be the OPde jour I know I'd have one in my list.
The "Null Zone" have significant downside, Its range is only 6", making it trash compare to other armies psychic power. It is only good in 2 ways. One: as a "defensive" power to psycologically discourage the enemy hard hitter rely on good inv saves like Magnus, Mortarion, Daemon Prince, Swarmlord, melee Hive Tyrants, Shining Spears, comes too close to you. Or Two: put on a Jumppack Libby as a completely suicide assault against a poorly bubble warp high value target, in which case you have to hope both things to happen, 1: you roll a 6 in advance roll plus you successfully cast the WC8 power; and 2: your opponent'S guardsmen screen are so poorly placed which failed to stop you reaching 6" range of the IK.
The CSM "Death Hex" is much much better than "Null Zone" If you want to actively nuke enemy tough target.
Death hex on a TSons sorcerer is extra good at 18" vs the normal 12". If that's an option for people. I'll run an Arihman/Cultist patrol just for that sometimes with my WE.
I Use a warboss on a warbike (for speed) with the Relic PK and the Brutal But Kunnin warlord trait, So he rerolls hits and wounds, also increases damage by 1. Buff him with a weirdboy and he has 6 attacks at S16 so hes hitting on 2s rerolling and wounding on 2s rerolling, with -3 AP and 4 damage each. Then if the knight kills him he gets to fight again, or if the knight doesn't kill him there is another strat to fight again, eitherway the knight is dead in the CC phase.
I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
What kind of Knight was it?
Because, math time...
20 Lootas do 1-6 shots each (1-3 base, can shoot again with a Strat).
Each shot hits on a 5+, generating an extra attack on a 6 (5+ with a strat). I'll assume the strat gets used.
Each shot does 4/9 hits.
Wounding on a 5+ is 4/27 wounds.
Saving on a 4+ is 2/27 unsaved.
2 Damage each is 4/27 damage per shot.
So, you'd need...
162 shots on average to kill a Questoris. That's both max number of shots AND shooting again to ALMOST do it.
Plopping this into anydice, 120 shots (again, the complete maximum) gives you just over 3% chance of killing a Questoris, and less than 1% chance of killing a Dominous.
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
To be fair, he probably spend 300+ points on that unit.
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
To be fair, he probably spend 300+ points on that unit.
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
You realize some knights can do this too, every turn, right?
I don’t even bother running my Shadowsword any more, because a knight will just one shot it. It’s not uncommon to lose expensive models/units to a single unit shooting them
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
To be fair, he probably spend 300+ points on that unit.
20 Lootas is 340pts. And the likelihood of killing a Knight is.....pathetically small. at most that is 60 shots hitting on 5s, if all 60 hit they still need 5s to wound. The chances of this happening is just insignificant. on average you get 20 actual hits with 10 reroll 1s and 10 reroll 6s, this yields another 7ish hits lets say 8, so 28 hits. These wound on 5s so 9ish wounds, they have -1 AP so your knight gets a 4+ save so 4-5 go through inflicting 8-10 damage, on average though you are only getting 40 shots not 60 so....cut 1/3rd of that damage off. So really you average 4 damage a turn without shooting twice and average # of shots. This guy just won the lottery
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
What kind of Knight was it?
Because, math time...
20 Lootas do 1-6 shots each (1-3 base, can shoot again with a Strat).
Each shot hits on a 5+, generating an extra attack on a 6 (5+ with a strat). I'll assume the strat gets used.
Each shot does 4/9 hits.
Wounding on a 5+ is 4/27 wounds.
Saving on a 4+ is 2/27 unsaved.
2 Damage each is 4/27 damage per shot.
So, you'd need...
162 shots on average to kill a Questoris. That's both max number of shots AND shooting again to ALMOST do it.
Plopping this into anydice, 120 shots (again, the complete maximum) gives you just over 3% chance of killing a Questoris, and less than 1% chance of killing a Dominous.
It was a Questoris class Knight, a Crusader. He rolled very well for his shots, and I rolled very poorly for saves. Lootas are super random....
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
What kind of Knight was it?
Because, math time...
20 Lootas do 1-6 shots each (1-3 base, can shoot again with a Strat).
Each shot hits on a 5+, generating an extra attack on a 6 (5+ with a strat). I'll assume the strat gets used.
Each shot does 4/9 hits.
Wounding on a 5+ is 4/27 wounds.
Saving on a 4+ is 2/27 unsaved.
2 Damage each is 4/27 damage per shot.
So, you'd need...
162 shots on average to kill a Questoris. That's both max number of shots AND shooting again to ALMOST do it.
Plopping this into anydice, 120 shots (again, the complete maximum) gives you just over 3% chance of killing a Questoris, and less than 1% chance of killing a Dominous.
It was a Questoris class Knight, a Crusader. He rolled very well for his shots, and I rolled very poorly for saves. Lootas are super random....
And how many strats did he use?
Because, again, with the MAXIMUM number of shots, and both the Shoot Again and Moar Dakka strats, he still only had a 3.28% chance of doing that.
I'm not saying you're lying-I'm just saying that what you experienced is NOT LIKELY to happen again.
Lets say he rolled 50% better than average. So instead of 2 shots he got 3, so 60 shots, instead of 28ish hits he got 42, instead of 14 wounds he got 21 wounds, at this point the knight has 21 saving throws to make on a 4+, so lets reduce that to a 5+ so instead of saving 10.5 he saves 7. So a total of 14 go through which is 28 damage. LOL he has to do 50% better across the board to kill it in 1 shot, that is insanely lucky shooting.
SemperMortis wrote: Lets say he rolled 50% better than average. So instead of 2 shots he got 3, so 60 shots, instead of 28ish hits he got 42, instead of 14 wounds he got 21 wounds, at this point the knight has 21 saving throws to make on a 4+, so lets reduce that to a 5+ so instead of saving 10.5 he saves 7. So a total of 14 go through which is 28 damage. LOL he has to do 50% better across the board to kill it in 1 shot, that is insanely lucky shooting.
SemperMortis wrote: Lets say he rolled 50% better than average. So instead of 2 shots he got 3, so 60 shots, instead of 28ish hits he got 42, instead of 14 wounds he got 21 wounds, at this point the knight has 21 saving throws to make on a 4+, so lets reduce that to a 5+ so instead of saving 10.5 he saves 7. So a total of 14 go through which is 28 damage. LOL he has to do 50% better across the board to kill it in 1 shot, that is insanely lucky shooting.
SemperMortis wrote: Lets say he rolled 50% better than average. So instead of 2 shots he got 3, so 60 shots, instead of 28ish hits he got 42, instead of 14 wounds he got 21 wounds, at this point the knight has 21 saving throws to make on a 4+, so lets reduce that to a 5+ so instead of saving 10.5 he saves 7. So a total of 14 go through which is 28 damage. LOL he has to do 50% better across the board to kill it in 1 shot, that is insanely lucky shooting.
SemperMortis wrote: Lets say he rolled 50% better than average. So instead of 2 shots he got 3, so 60 shots, instead of 28ish hits he got 42, instead of 14 wounds he got 21 wounds, at this point the knight has 21 saving throws to make on a 4+, so lets reduce that to a 5+ so instead of saving 10.5 he saves 7. So a total of 14 go through which is 28 damage. LOL he has to do 50% better across the board to kill it in 1 shot, that is insanely lucky shooting.
Knights have a 3+ armor.
Deffgunz are -1 AP
I'm aware-I'm just confused how you got a 5+.
I was giving them a 50% boost on average and I thought it made more sense to reduce the save then it was to lower the # saves on a 4+. Basically i am backing up your point, the likelihood of that happening is slim to none.
All this talk about OP Knights and Im here, 9 games and my valiant hasnt even hurt anything yet with his harpoon (I have shooted it 5 times in total, in 3 games, but failing to hit, to wound, or my opponent making the invulnerable, and youll say, shoot at vehicles without invuls... Good look being at 12"of one of those ).
In the other hand, Traitors Pyre is amazeballs. If the Valíant could have two flamethrowers....
Horst wrote: I played a guy yesterday, turn 1 with his orks a group of 20 lootas killed one of my Knights in a single salvo. I didn't have a 3++ invuln on it because I have 3 Knights in my list. So that was cool, losing a 450 point model to a single enemy unit shooting at it. :(
What kind of Knight was it?
Because, math time...
20 Lootas do 1-6 shots each (1-3 base, can shoot again with a Strat).
Each shot hits on a 5+, generating an extra attack on a 6 (5+ with a strat). I'll assume the strat gets used.
Each shot does 4/9 hits.
Wounding on a 5+ is 4/27 wounds.
Saving on a 4+ is 2/27 unsaved.
2 Damage each is 4/27 damage per shot.
So, you'd need...
162 shots on average to kill a Questoris. That's both max number of shots AND shooting again to ALMOST do it.
Plopping this into anydice, 120 shots (again, the complete maximum) gives you just over 3% chance of killing a Questoris, and less than 1% chance of killing a Dominous.
It was a Questoris class Knight, a Crusader. He rolled very well for his shots, and I rolled very poorly for saves. Lootas are super random....
And how many strats did he use?
Because, again, with the MAXIMUM number of shots, and both the Shoot Again and Moar Dakka strats, he still only had a 3.28% chance of doing that.
I'm not saying you're lying-I'm just saying that what you experienced is NOT LIKELY to happen again.
Well it happened in a tournament yesterday, so I didn't think you were calling me a liar or anything, and it's pretty reassuring to know that was a fluke.
He did indeed use more dakka and showing off. It was brutal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: All this talk about OP Knights and Im here, 9 games and my valiant hasnt even hurt anything yet with his harpoon (I have shooted it 5 times in total, in 3 games, but failing to hit, to wound, or my opponent making the invulnerable, and youll say, shoot at vehicles without invuls... Good look being at 12"of one of those ).
In the other hand, Traitors Pyre is amazeballs. If the Valíant could have two flamethrowers....
When people say, "Knights are OP!!!" 99% of the time they're complaining about a very specific Knight... army with a single Knight, a Raven Castellan with a 3++ invulnerable.
bullyboy wrote: death hex and null zone issue is simple.... You have to get into range, and that knight probably has a nice little 85pt Culexus or Vindicare for you.
To some degree. There are definitely ways to get the librarian there without really risking him to the Vindicare, but it means that the elements of your army that are going to kill the Knight have to survive the Knight for a little bit.
I would definitely try the librarian with null zone strategy. Alternatively, trying to hit it with -3 or -4 to hit from a DA, SW, and Primaris Phobos Librarian seems like another idea, but you've got to be able to keep doing that and there's no guarantee of that with snipers about.
Trying do do mortal wounds to it also sounds like a sound plan.
The tough thing is dealing with it's invulnerable save. I generally approach the problem by massed fire and threatening it with things its controller wants to kill. It doesn't really need to die turn 1 if I have good control over what it's going to shoot and can afford the casualties. Having Penitent Engines instead of 1 Exorcist seems to work if I get the turn, since I can destroy most of it's supporting AT assets with meltaguns and exorcists, and leave it in the situation where it either ignores the pile of meltaguns and rocket launchers, or gets charged by the penitent engine/s [and it probably can't kill all the tanks and meltaguns in one turn anyway].
As an ork player I do not have an answer to the Castellan beyond getting stuck in combat with thngs and mking sure to surround units so they cannot walk away. and/or kill everything else on the board and ignore it as the castellan alone destroys over 1/3 of my army over the course of a game while i occationally scratch the paint and try to puyll out a bloody victory on points (it is doable but Rarely remove one from the table)
G00fySmiley wrote: As an ork player I do not have an answer to the Castellan beyond getting stuck in combat with thngs and mking sure to surround units so they cannot walk away. and/or kill everything else on the board and ignore it as the castellan alone destroys over 1/3 of my army over the course of a game while i occationally scratch the paint and try to puyll out a bloody victory on points (it is doable but Rarely remove one from the table)
Literally the best option in the game for killing knights. Shock attack gun. Smash guns.
G00fySmiley wrote: As an ork player I do not have an answer to the Castellan beyond getting stuck in combat with thngs and mking sure to surround units so they cannot walk away. and/or kill everything else on the board and ignore it as the castellan alone destroys over 1/3 of my army over the course of a game while i occationally scratch the paint and try to puyll out a bloody victory on points (it is doable but Rarely remove one from the table)
Literally the best option in the game for killing knights. Shock attack gun. Smash guns.
the problem there is randomness.
SAGd6 shots, 2d6strap-5 average strength is 7, average number of shots 3.5 BS 5 = ~1 hit. wounding on a 5 so .33 xd6 wounds. I can take the SSAG and spend cp so i am at 2d6 shots so 7 BS5 shots for~2 hits wounding on 5's so .66 xd6 wounds. Now one could get lucky and roll str 11+ and 12 shots hitting 12 6's for dakka dakka and 12 more hits for 24d3 dmg but by that same token you might get str 2 , 2 shots and miss both. SAG is just not a reliable way to do it, it is worth trying but its not somethign that can be relied upon. I find i usually get 1-2 good rounds of shots out of it if it surives 5 turns, usually 2 worthless ones and 1-2 ok ones.
smasha guns have the same issue of can be great but also may suck. d3 hits so average 2, hitting on 4's so average 1 hit, and wounding on a 2d6 roll of 8+ so ~35% chance to deal d6 wounds
and sure you can get 1 reroll in there on something, but better hope its worth it.
I will concede that it is possible to roll great on both and destroy a knight in one turn, but with so much randomness the same chances exist to do nothing to it.
dkoz wrote: So how exactly does the smash cpt work? I get you drop him in and get him to the knight then you need his 3++ to work for the overwatch. However he only gets 4 attacks w/3 damage for each hit but still the knight will just leave CC won't it?
Extra attack from death visions, d3 more from red rampage. Maybe D4 thunderhammer if you are willing to risk the overwatch with your 3++. Fight again. Rerolls.
Albeit I think it won't one shot it quite. Normal knight yes but castellan with extra wounds might be bit too tough. But leaves only little to be done by shooting.
On the upside, if you're running a Spears deathstar, it'll be hard for the Castellan to kill your deathstar.
But Mono-CWE has Doom, which will make things easier. On the other hand, most of our AT is shortranged (6" or 12"), and our LasCannon equivelent wounds on 4s and only has 36" range.
Tyranid Horde wrote: What's a solid way of killing it with mono-Craftworlds? I see shining spears but I don't actually know the strategy behind it.
2-3 Fire Prisms and a Warlock/Spiritseer/Hemlock with Jinx is a pretty effective place to start. Use the Linked Fire stratagem to maximise you firepower and put just one Prism in LOS to the Knight. Then use Fire and Fade to move that Prism out of LOS or at least into cover. Add the Alaitoc trait and use Lightning Fast reflexes for extra protection if your opponent manages to get LOS to any of your Prisms.
A Wraithknight with Sword and Board is pretty cheap and should be capable of taking out a Castellan in melee if you can get it there alive. It will suffer if it runs up against a melee Knight like a Gallant though so may not be the best option.
Spears are good against a lot of targets but at S6, they will struggle against a Knight (although Doom will help here).
10 Dark Reapers with Guide, Doom and Jinx plus Fire and Fade will do good work too for their points as well as being useful against most other targets in the game.
None of these options are quite as efficient as allying in Dark Eldar or Harlequins to bring access to Haywire + Doom but if you definitely want to play mono, then the suggestions above are probably your best options.
I would think Bobby G could really feth up a Castellan if he can somehow get to it without getting dirt napped. Also, Thousand Sons could use Smite Spam if they can clear the intervening units (including any Culexus Assassins, a tall order I know).
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think Bobby G could really feth up a Castellan if he can somehow get to it without getting dirt napped. Also, Thousand Sons could use Smite Spam if they can clear the intervening units (including any Culexus Assassins, a tall order I know).
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think Bobby G could really feth up a Castellan if he can somehow get to it without getting dirt napped. Also, Thousand Sons could use Smite Spam if they can clear the intervening units (including any Culexus Assassins, a tall order I know).
I think that a Hammer Captain will put more wounds per point on a Castellan in melee since it only costs 1/3 the points of Bobby G. Bobby G needs to leverage his assorted aura buffs to make his 400 points pricetag worthwhile. Using him as an assault hammer strikes me as problematic.
Smite spam is very effective vs Knights if you can deal with any screening units. Imperial players can do smite spam quite effectively by taking 3 Inquisitors as a SCD. OK the Smite difficulty will increase by 1 each time it is cast but the Inquisitors themselves are Characters and can be screened quite cheaply from retaliation. I have lost Knights by surprise to Smiting Inquisitors before because I underestimated them. They are cheap too.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think Bobby G could really feth up a Castellan if he can somehow get to it without getting dirt napped. Also, Thousand Sons could use Smite Spam if they can clear the intervening units (including any Culexus Assassins, a tall order I know).
Guilliman cannot kill a Knight in one go, just look at the stats, He got 6 attacks each has 3 dmg. So even he get all his attacks successful, it is only 18 dmg. in reply, the IK will death Grip him to Death with the unlimited mortal wounds.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think Bobby G could really feth up a Castellan if he can somehow get to it without getting dirt napped. Also, Thousand Sons could use Smite Spam if they can clear the intervening units (including any Culexus Assassins, a tall order I know).
Guilliman cannot kill a Knight in one go, just look at the stats, He got 6 attacks each has 3 dmg. So even he get all his attacks successful, it is only 18 dmg. in reply, the IK will death Grip him to Death with the unlimited mortal wounds.
You forgot the mortal wounds on 6's and he's got inbuilt full rerolls
He then has a get back up roll and a fight again strategum either way he can 1 round a knight.
That is ignoring that a Castellen can't deathgrip.
ZergSmasher wrote: I would think Bobby G could really feth up a Castellan if he can somehow get to it without getting dirt napped. Also, Thousand Sons could use Smite Spam if they can clear the intervening units (including any Culexus Assassins, a tall order I know).
Guilliman cannot kill a Knight in one go, just look at the stats, He got 6 attacks each has 3 dmg. So even he get all his attacks successful, it is only 18 dmg. in reply, the IK will death Grip him to Death with the unlimited mortal wounds.
You forgot the mortal wounds on 6's and he's got inbuilt full rerolls
He then has a get back up roll and a fight again strategum either way he can 1 round a knight.
That is ignoring that a Castellen can't deathgrip.
D3 MW on a , with aweapon wound the IK on 4s, ok, Lets be generous count 5 wounds goes through, 2 of them are 6s, So that yields 21 dmg maximum, or 19 dmg on average MW rolls. Still cannot kill any Big IK.
I will never count on the "come back" rolls, 70% of the time it fails even I use CP reroll.
Even If He come back with D6 wounds, and strike again that somehow kills the Knight, the Knight will explode dealting D6MW on him and everybody nearby, exactly killing Guilliman again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, what IK player would be that kind of silly, allowing Guilliman runs near Castellan Knight??? Any IK player that is experienced enough will sent Raven House Gallant Knight charging right where Guilliman is located, where will usually have tons of Marines high value targets. With stomp, slice and the explosion when it finally got brought down, it will easily wreck models worth double of its 350pts cost.
Well, fortunatley, I play CWE. If I take two of our beatstick HQs and get the charge on the first turn, provided I survive, I have a reasonable chance of killing the it by the end of T7!
Assuming the Castellan rolls a lot of 1s for it's attacks, that is.
Tyranid Horde wrote: What's a solid way of killing it with mono-Craftworlds? I see shining spears but I don't actually know the strategy behind it.
Definitely Doom/Jinx, Fire Prisms using Linked Fire strat and Hemlocks.
Axe wraithguard/wraithlords with psytronome, wraithsight strat, etc can also bring it down if you get them there.
Right now, my challenge is going to be how to deal with Culexi assassins to allow the above to happen. One is easy to avoid, >1 not so much and makes Doom/Jinx much harder to achieve.
Jinx certainly, but either Fire Prisms or Doom - Doom does nothing for Linked Fire Fire Prisms (and Fire Prisms are terrible at the job without Linked Fire).
Sniper drones are surprisingly good against knights. Focus fire, TUD, and an assortment of buffs eventually turns into hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, mortal wounds on 5+, and AP-1 on 5+. 3++ Invulns are silly on t8 models and sniper drones are one of the few sources of mortal wounds in the codex.
, with aweapon wound the IK on 4s, ok, Lets be generous count 5 wounds goes through, 2 of them are 6s, So that yields 21