Seems appropriate that there should be a specific thread to all things Ynnari. Based on the May White Dwarf preview, it would appear that we are getting ...
• 17 stratagems (replacing SFD as we know it and potentially precluding Ynnari detachments from accessing strats from other Aeldari codex books??)
• 6 Warlord Traits
• 6 Relics
• 6 Tactical Objectives
• 6 Revenant discipline psychic powers
Might as well get the discussions going. Personally, having played Ynnari since 7th edition, I'm a little burnt out from the playstyle and I'm hoping the index infuses some new interesting dynamics into the overall playstyle while not straying too far from the SFD mechanics. Perhaps, the death of a unit within [x number of inches] would allow for a stratagem to be played in some instances.
Curious to see if these stratagems would fully replace the stratagems found within the existing Aeldari faction codices as well. What are you anticipating (hoping for) and will you be playing Ynnari or moving over to one or more of the codex Aeldari factions?
Couple of thumbs of how i've run my Ynnari lists over the years (not in the typical crimson and yes I know it's blasphemy to run them with Coven units as well ... )
When fracture of Biel Tan came out I was excited with the path of the army since I play Iyanden and Harlequins. i played a few games (maybe 2), and then ever since they have been altered rules-wise with every CA and FAQ, I've lost any interest in playing them as I no longer knew what the rules were for the faction.
I'm hoping this new index brings back my passion for wanting to play the faction, not for power play, but for thematic games where I won't be TFG for playing with cool models.
wannabmoy wrote: Curious to see if these stratagems would fully replace the stratagems found within the existing Aeldari faction codices as well. What are you anticipating (hoping for) and will you be playing Ynnari or moving over to one or more of the codex Aeldari factions?
Are there any ynnari specific stratagems in existing codexes? Those might be reprinted and slightly altered but other than that no. Instead they will be bunch of new stratagems for eldar soup. Possibly affecting even non-ynnari eldars(could be pick aeldar unit... style trigger).
I adore Ynnari lore. I honestly get deeply tired of everyone bashing them.
That being said, I'm interested to see this. One thing we probably have to assume is that they will change how a detachment is made ynnari. 6 warlord traits is the big hint there; presumably each of the 3 will get one always included, but what about the other 3? They would require a non-named character.
I think the writing is on the wall for SFD turning into a stratagem, but then what replaces it as a chapter tactic? I think it would clever to make it look something like Epididimus from Nurgle; a table with increasing buffs per unit slain.
Will ynnari farseers get access to the full revenant discipline, since presumably they will be able to be full hq choices?
wannabmoy wrote: Curious to see if these stratagems would fully replace the stratagems found within the existing Aeldari faction codices as well. What are you anticipating (hoping for) and will you be playing Ynnari or moving over to one or more of the codex Aeldari factions?
Are there any ynnari specific stratagems in existing codexes? Those might be reprinted and slightly altered but other than that no. Instead they will be bunch of new stratagems for eldar soup. Possibly affecting even non-ynnari eldars(could be pick aeldar unit... style trigger).
No WL traits, or stratagems at all for Ynnari, they are still in the Index only.
Also we dont know if those stratagems will work the way you think with soup, rumor has it soup is being nerfed, if you only have 5 CP in Soup, it wont be worth it to soup up with Ynnari
wannabmoy wrote: Curious to see if these stratagems would fully replace the stratagems found within the existing Aeldari faction codices as well. What are you anticipating (hoping for) and will you be playing Ynnari or moving over to one or more of the codex Aeldari factions?
Are there any ynnari specific stratagems in existing codexes? Those might be reprinted and slightly altered but other than that no. Instead they will be bunch of new stratagems for eldar soup. Possibly affecting even non-ynnari eldars(could be pick aeldar unit... style trigger).
As it exists, there are no "Ynnari" specific stratagems. One of the main benefits of running Ynnari is allowing a mixed Aeldari detachment that allows to maximum usage of mixed stratagems, relics, etc. (e.g. Midnight Sorrow Solitaire for No Price Too Steep with Dreaming Shadow Death Jesters for An Example Made or a Biel-Tan Spirtseer/Warlock to take the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan with Saim-Hann Shining Spears for Warriors of the Raging Winds. Other common combos are Ulthwé Guardians for Discipline of the Black Guardians with Biel-Tan Shining Spears for Court of the Young King, etc.).
I have a hunch that going forward, if you choose to make an Aeldari detachment a Ynnari detachment, you may be limited to the Ynnari index stratagems, as opposed to being able to pick and choose the best strats from the various Aeldari codex books.
Well all rumours are rumours(remember how rumours said castellan and soup is going to be nerfed hard FOR SURE in CA2018? How did that pan out?). I'm going with the how they work now. You have bunch of stratagems you unlock if you have suitable detachment and then you can use them if unit meets requirements even if they aren't from same faction. Or even same codex.
Really looking forward to this - Ynnari are currently a mess in many ways, but are thematically very interesting. They're overpowered at the moment, ruining the experience of fielding them for actual Ynnari fans. Fingers crossed for a great codex.
What's interesting to me, is that it's very clear that GW is trying to progress the Aeldari narrative through the Ynnari. However, the same focus and effort is not directed to their representation on the table-top.
Seems like they rushed the Aeldari faction (specifically Asuryani and Ynnari) codex rollout without thinking about how this should feel.
Given that GW is big in trying to make sure each army plays and feels like it should in the lore, it may make sense for them to revist the Aeldari factions holistically towards the end of this phase 8.2 season.
I tried out ynnari for the first time yesterday (Was running yncarne because the model looks dope) and boy, i can't believe they let them have the current version of SFD for so long. Although the army is super cool flavor-wise it really needs to pay for that ability.
I've seen many people suggesting that ynnari would work like the new assassins, the problem with that is the pts difference between the models, assassins were already close pre-WD Ynnari would need serious buffing/nerfing to all become the same pts value.
I'm eager to see what they do with them, im just waiting on the WD to come out so i can decide if i want to get the trumvirate for my army.
VladimirHerzog wrote: I tried out ynnari for the first time yesterday (Was running yncarne because the model looks dope) and boy, i can't believe they let them have the current version of SFD for so long. Although the army is super cool flavor-wise it really needs to pay for that ability.
I've seen many people suggesting that ynnari would work like the new assassins, the problem with that is the pts difference between the models, assassins were already close pre-WD Ynnari would need serious buffing/nerfing to all become the same pts value.
I'm eager to see what they do with them, im just waiting on the WD to come out so i can decide if i want to get the trumvirate for my army.
SFD has already been changed twice (maybe three times? Seem to have lost track). How do you mean that Ynnari would work like the new assassins? I’m not quite tracking there.
VladimirHerzog wrote: I tried out ynnari for the first time yesterday (Was running yncarne because the model looks dope) and boy, i can't believe they let them have the current version of SFD for so long. Although the army is super cool flavor-wise it really needs to pay for that ability.
I've seen many people suggesting that ynnari would work like the new assassins, the problem with that is the pts difference between the models, assassins were already close pre-WD Ynnari would need serious buffing/nerfing to all become the same pts value.
I'm eager to see what they do with them, im just waiting on the WD to come out so i can decide if i want to get the trumvirate for my army.
SFD has already been changed twice (maybe three times? Seem to have lost track). How do you mean that Ynnari would work like the new assassins? I’m not quite tracking there.
oh i didnt know it got changed, still the ability is busted if after many changes this is the state they left it in.
For the assassin comparison i meant that you could pay CP at the start of the game to pick one of the 3 hqs to bring situationally (still paying pts for it in the list, but having a choice) or you could bring a special detachment with all 3 models. this is a rumor ive heard but i dont think it would actually be viable since the power level of the 3 HQs varies greatly
For clarity, the suggestion comparing the 3 Ynnari characters to Assassin has NOTHING to do with the versatility Assassins have to "pick the one you need" and FAR more to do with how to add them to your army.
Right now, the Ynnari characters need far too many special rules/conditions to be added without mucking up how detachments work (because Aeldari and Ynnari cannot be used as shared keywords for detachments). But if you could add them using a CP and have them exist "outside" your limit of 3 detachments, it works much more smoothly. Just set aside the Reinforcement points for the character you intend to play, spend a CP, done. Or take all 3 in a Command detachment.
Then you make Soulbursts into Stratagems and you no longer need to "trade" Army special rules/traits for Strength from Death. Again, clean and easy, yet still requires resources (CPs and likely still triggering off deaths)
Galef wrote: For clarity, the suggestion comparing the 3 Ynnari characters to Assassin has NOTHING to do with the versatility Assassins have to "pick the one you need" and FAR more to do with how to add them to your army.
Right now, the Ynnari characters need far too many special rules/conditions to be added without mucking up how detachments work (because Aeldari and Ynnari cannot be used as shared keywords for detachments). But if you could add them using a CP and have them exist "outside" your limit of 3 detachments, it works much more smoothly.
Just set aside the Reinforcement points for the character you intend to play, spend a CP, done.
Or take all 3 in a Command detachment.
Then you make Soulbursts into Stratagems and you no longer need to "trade" Army special rules/traits for Strength from Death. Again, clean and easy, yet still requires resources (CPs and likely still triggering off deaths)
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I have a feeling for the index, if you choose to make a detachment a Ynnari detachment ... you might get locked into using the Ynnari specific stratagems that they are providing and locked out of the strats from the other codex books. If my hunch is correct, this could go a long way to correcting some of the brokenness of the SFD mechanic as we know it.
VladimirHerzog wrote: I tried out ynnari for the first time yesterday (Was running yncarne because the model looks dope) and boy, i can't believe they let them have the current version of SFD for so long. Although the army is super cool flavor-wise it really needs to pay for that ability.
I've seen many people suggesting that ynnari would work like the new assassins, the problem with that is the pts difference between the models, assassins were already close pre-WD Ynnari would need serious buffing/nerfing to all become the same pts value.
I'm eager to see what they do with them, im just waiting on the WD to come out so i can decide if i want to get the trumvirate for my army.
SFD has already been changed twice (maybe three times? Seem to have lost track). How do you mean that Ynnari would work like the new assassins? I’m not quite tracking there.
oh i didnt know it got changed, still the ability is busted if after many changes this is the state they left it in.
For the assassin comparison i meant that you could pay CP at the start of the game to pick one of the 3 hqs to bring situationally (still paying pts for it in the list, but having a choice) or you could bring a special detachment with all 3 models. this is a rumor ive heard but i dont think it would actually be viable since the power level of the 3 HQs varies greatly
Thanks for the clarification. I'm not entirely sure that approach would gel well with Ynnari. The reinforcement points idea is interesting such that you wouldn't need to bring them in a separate detachment. I'm very curious as to see what direction GW decides to go here as there are a number of paths they can take.
So thinking about what we already know based on what's been published (and trying not to be all doom and gloom) ... it appears that Ynnariquins might still be a viable option (perhaps not with the Solitare anymore). The potential combination of Rising Crescendo with Strength from Death could be powerful pending on what stratagems, psychic powers, warlord traits, relics, etc. exist for Ynnari. The idea of being able to fallback and charge with a +1 to hit is powerful and also the ability to alternate with pseudo built-in interrupts could be very powerful and a shoe-in for moving the Yncarne into your opponent's phase early in the game.
Also, thinking about how wraithknights might also be able to benefit from SFD given the new Ynnari faction rules ...
Amishprn86 wrote: Solitaire will have to be a separate detachment, but you can still take it, just in a stupid janky way.
Right! I'm already thinking that finding the optimal detachment setup will be something that will need careful consideration (as if that isn't already the case).
With current rules leaked i'm considering a Supreme command detachment with Yvraine, Autarch on bike and Skyweaver warlock (option to add a Wraithseer instead the Warlock) along a unit of Wraithblades with choice to add a Wraithknight.
Not game changing or capable to sustain turn 1 Alpha if running vs tournament armies but can be decent hammer to send against the enemy.
The strats plus psyker powers can give it an obscene durability along Wl traits buffs.
Also Wraithblades can be changed with simple Wraithguard since they already can dish quite decent melee dmg with their bare fists.
An Ynnari Shadowseer warlord (Lord of Rebirth) with the Lost Shroud. Give him the "Melee Doom" power and the healing power.
You now have a Warlord who can tank lots of attention and still possibly heal to full the next round. -1 to wound him, 4+ invul, halves incoming damage, and a 5+ FnP save. He heal at least 1 wound a round and d3 more via a WC 5 power.
He doesnt do much damage but he can help other Harlies to survive and help them hurt things for him. If the Shadowseer was full health already? Smite.
CP the CP farm trait to a Death Jester or something...
Fifty wrote: I was so hopeful that they'd give us back the ability to use Corsairs as Ynnari, but never mind. Maybe Corsairs will get the own Index Xenos.
I mean, in fairness, they'd probably be a reasonable stand-in for Corsairs. Hell, at least one of the Warlord traits looks like it was pinched right out of the First Prince powers in the Corsairs book.
Except that you can't even use them unless you include one of their vomit-inducing special characters.
Oh, I'm sorry, naturally I meant unless you include one of their vomit-inducing special characters in every detachment. Because in spite of Ynnari ostensibly being united under a single banner, you're not actually allowed to mix and match Eldar, DE and/or Harlequin units in the same detachment. Way to go, GW.
You can't stack FnP saves you just take the best one available to you.
BRBFAQ says use both. So until that changes (soon?), they stack!
No, the FAQ says this;
Page 181 – Ignoring Wounds
Add the following as a boxout on this page:
‘Ignoring Wounds Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g. Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you can only use one of those abilities each time the model loses a wound.’
You can't stack FnP saves you just take the best one available to you.
BRBFAQ says use both. So until that changes (soon?), they stack!
No, the FAQ says this;
Page 181 – Ignoring Wounds
Add the following as a boxout on this page:
‘Ignoring Wounds Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g. Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you can only use one of those abilities each time the model loses a wound.’
They don't stack.
Seems I was the one looking at an out of date FAQ... No stacking currently...
Whilst all of this is pretty bad, some of it is hilariously bad.
The "A Taste For Death" stratagem, for example, gives a unit +1 to hit in melee if it kills something in the shooting phase. It will already be getting +1 to hit from strength from death, so this gives it +2. Everything already hits on 2's with a +1, except Axe wielding Wraithguard, but they can't shoot. Pointless.
The "United in Death" strat requires you to have all 3 Ynnari Characters, each leading a different Detachment from each of the 3 Aeldari races. You also need to kill a unit to trigger soulburst before the strat has any effect.
There's also possibly the worst 2 tactical objectives in the game:
"For Ynneads Glory" requires you to kill 3 units to get 1VP. With the extra limitation, that you must use Ynnari units to kill them. What?
"Soulsurge" is even worse. You have to kill 3 units with Ynnari benefiting from soulburst, so you have to have already killed one to trigger soulburst. 4 units killed, by a limited selection of units, for 1VP. What?!
The "A Taste For Death" stratagem, for example, gives a unit +1 to hit in melee if it kills something in the shooting phase. It will already be getting +1 to hit from strength from death, so this gives it +2. Everything already hits on 2's with a +1, except Axe wielding Wraithguard, but they can't shoot. Pointless.
The "United in Death" strat requires you to have all 3 Ynnari Characters, each leading a different Detachment from each of the 3 Aeldari races. You also need to kill a unit to trigger soulburst before the strat has any effect.
There's also possibly the worst 2 tactical objectives in the game:
"For Ynneads Glory" requires you to kill 3 units to get 1VP. With the extra limitation, that you must use Ynnari units to kill them. What?
"Soulsurge" is even worse. You have to kill 3 units with Ynnari benefiting from soulburst, so you have to have already killed one to trigger soulburst. 4 units killed, by a limited selection of units, for 1VP. What?!
Also, don't forget "Incubi are super important to Ynnari lore, so instead of throwing them the tiniest most microscopic bone and including them in the REBORN DRUKHARI keyword, we gave you a fething 2cp stratagem so you can maybe give this terrible unit +1WS turns 1 and 2 until it becomes moot turn 3 because they get that gak free anyway."
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh theyre in all the pictures you show of the army GW and every time someone goes "Awhaaat is this a leaked new Eldar unit what are these cool looking sword warrior fellows?????" because NOBODY HAS USED AN INCUBI IN FIVE EDITIONS.
The "A Taste For Death" stratagem, for example, gives a unit +1 to hit in melee if it kills something in the shooting phase. It will already be getting +1 to hit from strength from death, so this gives it +2. Everything already hits on 2's with a +1, except Axe wielding Wraithguard, but they can't shoot. Pointless.
The "United in Death" strat requires you to have all 3 Ynnari Characters, each leading a different Detachment from each of the 3 Aeldari races. You also need to kill a unit to trigger soulburst before the strat has any effect.
There's also possibly the worst 2 tactical objectives in the game:
"For Ynneads Glory" requires you to kill 3 units to get 1VP. With the extra limitation, that you must use Ynnari units to kill them. What?
"Soulsurge" is even worse. You have to kill 3 units with Ynnari benefiting from soulburst, so you have to have already killed one to trigger soulburst. 4 units killed, by a limited selection of units, for 1VP. What?!
Also, don't forget "Incubi are super important to Ynnari lore, so instead of throwing them the tiniest most microscopic bone and including them in the REBORN DRUKHARI keyword, we gave you a fething 2cp stratagem so you can maybe give this terrible unit +1WS turns 1 and 2 until it becomes moot turn 3 because they get that gak free anyway."
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh theyre in all the pictures you show of the army GW and every time someone goes "Awhaaat is this a leaked new Eldar unit what are these cool looking sword warrior fellows?????" because NOBODY HAS USED AN INCUBI IN FIVE EDITIONS.
This gets me confused and angry at the same time and not always in that order!
I can live with not super powerful rules. But this indicates that there was no love whatsoever going into those index rules...
The "A Taste For Death" stratagem, for example, gives a unit +1 to hit in melee if it kills something in the shooting phase. It will already be getting +1 to hit from strength from death, so this gives it +2. Everything already hits on 2's
Unless they try to hit a unit which has natural -1 to hit in melee, and those exist.
The "A Taste For Death" stratagem, for example, gives a unit +1 to hit in melee if it kills something in the shooting phase. It will already be getting +1 to hit from strength from death, so this gives it +2. Everything already hits on 2's
Unless they try to hit a unit which has natural -1 to hit in melee, and those exist.
The "A Taste For Death" stratagem, for example, gives a unit +1 to hit in melee if it kills something in the shooting phase. It will already be getting +1 to hit from strength from death, so this gives it +2. Everything already hits on 2's
Unless they try to hit a unit which has natural -1 to hit in melee, and those exist.
Well yeah, also you could have a Wraithlord/Knight who's profile has degraded so they hit on 4's, then some how manage to kill something in the shooting phase. Or a Wave Serpent that now gets to hit on 4's in CC. It's still pointless.
The Incubi one is also terrible, as is the +3 to a psychic test if you managed to smite something to death beforehand. Do they have any powers good enough to spend CP on? Will you remember this strat exists on the rare occasion you get to use it?
The +3 to test is actually pretty decent to force through enemy Deny. Yvraine would then cast with +4. You then can snipe enemy with Gaze, land Doom or your 5++ aura.
It is situational, but it is a good trick. You can have a Warlock with Gaze, for example, they don't have re-rolls or bonuses to casts, and it might easily be worth it.
Shadenuat wrote: The +3 to test is actually pretty decent to force through enemy Deny. Yvraine would then cast with +4. You then can snipe enemy with Gaze, land Doom or your 5++ aura.
It is situational, but it is a good trick.
I think the trick is that it means Yvraine will be dealing D6 mortal wounds with Smite on a 7+ psychic test.
+3 to cast is undeniably a very strong ability, and would be great to force through really clutch powers like Jinx, Quicken, Doom, and... nothing from the revenant dicipline.
After carefully positioning 2-3 Psykers to all smite the same target (hopefully one that isn't a terrible waste of your psychic phase, and also only has about 4-6 wounds left), casting those smites without being denied, and spending 1CP, you get to force through an underwhelming psychic power!
On another point, I notice that it's no longer possible to put Ynnari units inside non-Ynnari transports. A Ynnari Vanguard detachment carried inside Alaitoc Wave Serpents might have been something.
As a Craftworld player the only thing I might use from this is the Yncarne. He's still overcosted, but his Warlord Trait makes him even more of a beast in CC, and his teleporting tricks are still cool. You could combine him with big Storm guardian blobs, which would make use of his auras and the 5++ power, but I'd probably run him in a Craftword detachment.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: +3 to cast is undeniably a very strong ability, and would be great to force through really clutch powers like Jinx, Quicken, Doom, and... nothing from the revenant dicipline.
Sadly, the +3 strat can ONLY be used on Smite and the Revenant discipline. Ynnari psykers must draw their powers from Revenant instead of Fate, Battle, or Phantasmancy.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: +3 to cast is undeniably a very strong ability, and would be great to force through really clutch powers like Jinx, Quicken, Doom, and... nothing from the revenant dicipline.
Sadly, the +3 strat can ONLY be used on Smite and the Revenant discipline. Ynnari psykers must draw their powers from Revenant instead of Fate, Battle, or Phantasmancy.
Yup, still seems best situated for adding Yvraine into a DE list for super smites and psychic defense
Taken in a Kabal detachment you pay 58~ points versus an archon. You lose the buff aura and give up the opportunity of bringing say an index blaster (or blast pistol) but get two psychic powers (you can't buff so its just mind bullets) and a deny. Both of which have +1 inbuilt.
She has a 4++, which some people seem to reckon is better than the shadowfield. (YMMV).
Hardly an auto-take, but its a potentially interesting alternative if you are running a battalion and that second archon feels like a tax.
I guess you could plug in a full Ynnari detachment to unlock some of the other toys... but it just feels like more tax for no obvious purpose.
At its core, Strength from Death is an alternate chapter tactic, which requires something to die to activate. Is something likely to die every turn? Yes, but its going to be a pain when you have cold dice. If you have lots of assault units, you won't have shooting units to activate it, so you are in this weird trade off. And weird trade offs=bad.
Does it compare with what Aeldari already have? In my view not really. I feel DE obsessions are better (full stop, the end) for Kabals or Cults. Alaitoc is better for CW - even with a weird assault focus. A wraith heavy army might theoretically benefit (but again, shooting as you waddle forward is an issue) - but you are giving up the Vigilus detachment which i think help you a lot. Harlequin bikers seem a possibility - but I am not convinced its a major upgrade over just taking Frozen Stars.
None of the warlord traits, relics or psychic powers are the sort of thing you build a list around. They are all just functional.
United in Death could be interesting - but to get the benefit, you need 3 Ynnari detachments. In which case have fun, because you have spent nearly 600 points on the three characters before anything else. I don't know if you can just say its "burn 1 CP for an extra attack on any one Ynnari unit" - and even if it was, that's not breaking the game. As it is the Visarch should be at least 30 points lower, and the Yncarne probably 50.
So i played a pre-WD ynnari list with a friend of mine to check out how busted they felt (i'd heard about them but never tried them) and boy, they were pretty dum (but fun as hell to play with the "big brain" plays). Anyway, i was running The Yncarne because that model is awesome and i was wondering how exactly its "summoned by death" worked, as in, how do i determine its allowed positioning.
does the yncarne basically take the old unit's place or is do i place it down before removing the old models, essentially placing them base-to-base ?
I plan on running it in my Wych cult list once WD hits and i wanted to make sure i play it properly
It takes the old units place, you are suppose to go as close as possible, meaning its base needs to be where the old units base(s) where.
Edit: to add, you have some wiggle room, if the unit was 30 orks, then you basically have that entire foot print to work it, if it was 1 single character with a 25mm base, just make sure the Yncarne's base could "hide" that 25mm base under it.
Amishprn86 wrote: It takes the old units place, you are suppose to go as close as possible, meaning its base needs to be where the old units base(s) where.
Edit: to add, you have some wiggle room, if the unit was 30 orks, then you basically have that entire foot print to work it, if it was 1 single character with a 25mm base, just make sure the Yncarne's base could "hide" that 25mm base under it.
Alright, thanks! I played it wrong then, i was treating it similarly to units disembarking a transport (set up the unit before removing the transport).
So random thoughts so far.
spearhead of 3 Ynnari wraithlords with swords, Yvraine with Shield of Ynnead and Word of the Phoenix, 5 wraithblades in a serpent, and a wraithseer with the Lost Shroud and D-Cannon.
Also thinking of maybe a drukhari battalion with 20 wyches in webway, 2x5 kabalites (probably in venoms for dakka), Yncarne, succubus or archon, and 9 reavers with +1A combat drug.
bullyboy wrote: So random thoughts so far.
spearhead of 3 Ynnari wraithlords with swords, Yvraine with Shield of Ynnead and Word of the Phoenix, 5 wraithblades in a serpent, and a wraithseer with the Lost Shroud and D-Cannon.
Also thinking of maybe a drukhari battalion with 20 wyches in webway, 2x5 kabalites (probably in venoms for dakka), Yncarne, succubus or archon, and 9 reavers with +1A combat drug.
I dont know how competitive it would be but i probably will try it on tabletop simulator, wraiths are so cool.
I think that the Yvraine, 3 Wraithlords with starcannons and ghostglaive and spiritseer could be a fun semi competitive option.
The Wraithlords are 121 points per model, with good ranged damage output both in melee and ranged. With 560 points its not that expensive. A wraithseer is very cool but with it being more than 12 wounds its not that interesting.
Barnie25 wrote: I think that the Yvraine, 3 Wraithlords with starcannons and ghostglaive and spiritseer could be a fun semi competitive option.
The Wraithlords are 121 points per model, with good ranged damage output both in melee and ranged. With 560 points its not that expensive. A wraithseer is very cool but with it being more than 12 wounds its not that interesting.
Give the Wraithseer Lord of Rebirth (with the strat, don't make him your WL) and he's really tough. T8 3+/5++/5+++ and 12 wounds, regenning one a turn is nice for 100 points (+ whatever ranged weapon you give him). Anyone else looking at the Warlock Council (probably on bikes) to spread out psy buffs? 5++ from a big unit footprint and Storm of Whispers from the same could be real nice.
Barnie25 wrote: I think that the Yvraine, 3 Wraithlords with starcannons and ghostglaive and spiritseer could be a fun semi competitive option.
The Wraithlords are 121 points per model, with good ranged damage output both in melee and ranged. With 560 points its not that expensive. A wraithseer is very cool but with it being more than 12 wounds its not that interesting.
Give the Wraithseer Lord of Rebirth (with the strat, don't make him your WL) and he's really tough. T8 3+/5++/5+++ and 12 wounds, regenning one a turn is nice for 100 points (+ whatever ranged weapon you give him). Anyone else looking at the Warlock Council (probably on bikes) to spread out psy buffs? 5++ from a big unit footprint and Storm of Whispers from the same could be real nice.
On another point, I notice that it's no longer possible to put Ynnari units inside non-Ynnari transports. A Ynnari Vanguard detachment carried inside Alaitoc Wave Serpents might have been something.
Where is this? I was planning to put Ynarri in Drukharii venoms, I can't see this restriction, due I must be missing it though if you have!
Shadenuat wrote: They replace the tag which transports use for carrying models.
I'm pretty sure he meant that if he had 2 different detachment : 1 Craftworld Alaitoc and 1 Ynnari. under the old rules, his Ynnari HQ's could embark in any aeldari transport meaning, that you could put yvraine in the alaitoc wave serpent. But that rule is now gone so you cannot anymore.
Shadenuat wrote: They replace the tag which transports use for carrying models.
I'm pretty sure he meant that if he had 2 different detachment : 1 Craftworld Alaitoc and 1 Ynnari. under the old rules, his Ynnari HQ's could embark in any aeldari transport meaning, that you could put yvraine in the alaitoc wave serpent. But that rule is now gone so you cannot anymore.
But you still can fit Ynarri Drukharii in none Ynarri Drukharii transports. Also Ynarri and the Visarch can embark in any aeldari transport.
VladimirHerzog wrote: I'm pretty sure he meant that if he had 2 different detachment : 1 Craftworld Alaitoc and 1 Ynnari. under the old rules, his Ynnari HQ's could embark in any aeldari transport meaning, that you could put yvraine in the alaitoc wave serpent. But that rule is now gone so you cannot anymore.
It is not? The rule is still there in character abilities.
Drukharii transports don't work that way. They all carry all Drukhari infantry.
Oh right. So while Wave Serpents are screwed, the Drukhari transports don't care.
I'd like to include a Ynnari Autarch in my DE army. Specifically a Swooping Hawk Autarch with the Thirsting Blade and Lord of Rebirth. If you're wondering it's because he's about as close as I can get to the Corsair Prince I used to use back in 7th.
Now, because GW are asshats I also have to include one of the Ynnari special characters (either Yvraine or the Visarch, I honestly couldn't care less which).
Anyway, I'm looking for advice on what to run these 2 HQs with. Do you think it would be worth running some other (ideally cheap) Eldar units, or should I just add one of the cheap HQs and have a Supreme Command Detachment?
Also, I've got no experience kitting out Autarchs - is it worth taking a Reaper Missile Launcher on him, or would I be better off just using a Shuriken Catapult or other cheap weapon?
I'd like to include a Ynnari Autarch in my DE army. Specifically a Swooping Hawk Autarch with the Thirsting Blade and Lord of Rebirth. If you're wondering it's because he's about as close as I can get to the Corsair Prince I used to use back in 7th.
Now, because GW are asshats I also have to include one of the Ynnari special characters (either Yvraine or the Visarch, I honestly couldn't care less which).
Anyway, I'm looking for advice on what to run these 2 HQs with. Do you think it would be worth running some other (ideally cheap) Eldar units, or should I just add one of the cheap HQs and have a Supreme Command Detachment?
Also, I've got no experience kitting out Autarchs - is it worth taking a Reaper Missile Launcher on him, or would I be better off just using a Shuriken Catapult or other cheap weapon?
Autarchs work well with a Banshee Mask and the reaper launcher is nice too, but could be dropped if points are tight (I run mine with a deathspinner). If you add Yvraine you can give him reroll to wounds in combat and heal him when he gets injured. Chuck in a Warlock and you can add another mortal wound power (probably Gaze). Alternatively take 3 troops, 3 Stormguardians units are 144 points, which might be worth it to you for +5 CP. Alternatively, for 180 points, you can 3 units of Rangers, which gives you the Sniper that DE lacks.
Here's my assessment of the strats, what does everyone else think?
A Taste for Death
This stratagem gives +1 to hit to an army with WS 3+ and a +1 to hit on the charge under the same circumstances and only 1 model (the striking scorpion exarch) that cares about rolling 6+. It has a very small number of niche uses, which will almost never come up and is therefore pretty much useless, you can't plan to use this as part of a strategy and the situations were it is useful are incredibly rare.
Exalted of Ynnead
This is a cool, fun strat that let's you make some nice beatstick HQs. The +1 Str and Attack makes the Archon with Huskblade much, much better. S5 is just so much more powerful than S4. Makes him a genuine threat to heavy vehicles and a nightmare to MEQ. Other warlord traits work nicely for the Succubus, Troupe Master or Autarch too. And there's always CP generation!
Souls of the Strongest
This is niche and opponent dependent, but a nice bump for killing the enemy warlord. Essentially it's an auto use if you kill them, but I don't think I'd build a strategy around it.
Back from the Brink
Making Ynarri characters get back up is awesome. This is particularly good for your warlord (to deny the opponent a point) or your Exalted beatstick to just keep bringing the pain.
Inevitable Fate
This is great, a way to get a second combat only doom on top of the psychic power. It's very similar to a Covens strat, but is a massive boost to Reavers, making them a truly terrifying threat (hitting on 2s reroll 1s with S4 AP-1 reroll to wound is great).
Whispering Spirits
Niche, but handy in Aeldari leadership bombs.
Acolyte of Ynnead
Niche, because the trigger is hard to pull off, but very powerful when successful. +3 to Smite on top of Yvraine's +1 or a Farseers reroll gives a solid chance of hitting 11+ (better than 50%). Garbage tier. None of the Revenant powers need this much AND it's hard to pull off.
Ynnead's Net
Very useful as the normal ways to do this from the other codex's are locked out. Again this boosts Reavers and Shining Spears. I think Reavers may be a really nice unit for Ynarri.
Reborn Together
OK in some circumstances. If you don't have the Yncarne near by or PfP morale immunity and you have multiple large squads needing a check then... sure why not?
United in Death
This would be great if it wasn't locked behind a 700 point paywall. I'm going to write to GWFAQ and hope they address this as it's either the best stratagem in the codex or a dog's dinner. And it seems to be the latter. If you have 3 Ynarri detachments though, this is standout great.
Shrine of the Whispering God
No thanks. Incubi aren't great. This isn't enough to make the great. Done.
The Great Enemy
This is fine, same flavourful strat as the other Aeldari get.
Webway Ambush
Another copy of the other Aeldari, but just as useful as ever.
Deadly Misdirection
Another duplicate from other Aeldari and a welcome one.
Lightning Fast Reactions
Another tried and true Aeldari strat
I'm thinking about running either Yvraine or the Yncarne surrounded by a bunch of Razorwing Flocks. The Yncarne would give them Fearless, and the 5++ psychic power would be pretty beneficial to them. AND they can benefit from the Ynnari version of the Lightning Fast Reflexes strat.
I'd like to include a Ynnari Autarch in my DE army. Specifically a Swooping Hawk Autarch with the Thirsting Blade and Lord of Rebirth. If you're wondering it's because he's about as close as I can get to the Corsair Prince I used to use back in 7th.
Now, because GW are asshats I also have to include one of the Ynnari special characters (either Yvraine or the Visarch, I honestly couldn't care less which).
Anyway, I'm looking for advice on what to run these 2 HQs with. Do you think it would be worth running some other (ideally cheap) Eldar units, or should I just add one of the cheap HQs and have a Supreme Command Detachment?
Also, I've got no experience kitting out Autarchs - is it worth taking a Reaper Missile Launcher on him, or would I be better off just using a Shuriken Catapult or other cheap weapon?
Unfortunately, you can't just add an Autarch to your DE army, but I think you were saying that in thelater part of the post.
You will need a Craftworld Ynnari detachment to field an Autarch. best bet would be for a Supreme Command with the Autarch, one of the Ynnari characters and a third character, probably for psychic buffs.
As a Craftworld player the only thing I might use from this is the Yncarne. He's still overcosted, but his Warlord Trait makes him even more of a beast in CC, and his teleporting tricks are still cool. You could combine him with big Storm guardian blobs, which would make use of his auras and the 5++ power, but I'd probably run him in a Craftword detachment.
This is certainly something to consider.
The Yncarne can be annoying like hell to the opponent and is able to disrupt enemy plans.
An Autarch Skyrunner with The Lost Shroud relic and Warden of Souls WL trait could be quite nice.
119pts for Laser Lance, Fusion Gun and Banshee Mask (Index options). 5, S7, AP-4, D2 attacks (assuming SFD triggered) with a 3+, 4++, 5+++ and half damage.
Edit: As with all things Ynnari now, he might be better off being Alaitoc; Gets his reroll aura, CP regen, -1 to hit relic and could be able to target characters with his melta gun.
One thing I thought of regarding Dark Eldar - as far as I can see, the Alliance of Agony stratagem still works if you're using Ynnari. So you could have, say, Lord of Rebirth on a Warlord-Archon, and then use Alliance of Agony to get Walker of Many Paths on a Succubus (for rerolls in combat and CP regeneration).
Probably quite niche but I thought it worth mentioning.
Thinking some more about Wraithseers, one with Lord of the Reborn and another with The Lost Shroud looks pretty tasty. 200 points for 24 wounds at T8 3+/5++/5+++ with half damage on one and regen on the other. In combat, you have 8 attacks at S9 AP-4 D6 with reroll to wound vs vehicles. That's looking nice to me, especially compared to a Knight. Question is what ranged weapons would be good?
vipoid wrote: One thing I thought of regarding Dark Eldar - as far as I can see, the Alliance of Agony stratagem still works if you're using Ynnari. So you could have, say, Lord of Rebirth on a Warlord-Archon, and then use Alliance of Agony to get Walker of Many Paths on a Succubus (for rerolls in combat and CP regeneration).
Probably quite niche but I thought it worth mentioning.
Would this work? I'd have thought the part in the Ynnari rules about native stratagems not being useable on Ynnari units even if they have the relevant keyword would prevent it.
Trying to come up with a list of craftworld units that gain the most from being Ynnari, and I realised that it's more like a list of units that lose the least from not being Craftworlds.
Everything loses out by not having the Alaitoc trait, but many units lose more from the lack of buffs and stratagems, so the units in this list are CC units that you wouldn't normally buff:
-Banshees: The only buff I would usually bother with is Doom, but Ynnari have two ways to give them that.
-Striking Scorpions: I don't think I've ever buffed these guys. They pop up 9" away so the Alaitoc trait is no great loss, and the Exarch's ability to get extra hits on 6's makes this the unit that does best out of being Ynnari! 3x10 Scorpions!
-Autarch Skyrunner: Alaitoc trait is not needed due to the character rule. He doesn't benefit from SfD unless he has the Warden of Souls WL trait, but with that and The Lost Shroud he seems good.
-Wraithlords: I've wanted to try these guys since they went down to 85pts. They're not a unit that needs Craftworld buffs, and a group of them could make good use of the 5++ aura power and the Yncarnes 6+++ aura.
-Storm Guardians: They also do really well out of the Yncarnes buffs and the 5++ aura power. HtH Doom might also be nice for them.
This list has some of the Craftworlds least competitive units in it, while the previous Ynnari rules benefited the most competitive units, so maybe the new rules have improved Codex Craftworlds internal balance!
Edit: A unit of Scorpions that kills an enemy unit with their pistols could use the +1 to hit strat, then charge an enemy in cover to get +3 to hit, making the Exarch generate extra attacks on 3's to hit.
vipoid wrote: One thing I thought of regarding Dark Eldar - as far as I can see, the Alliance of Agony stratagem still works if you're using Ynnari. So you could have, say, Lord of Rebirth on a Warlord-Archon, and then use Alliance of Agony to get Walker of Many Paths on a Succubus (for rerolls in combat and CP regeneration).
Probably quite niche but I thought it worth mentioning.
Would this work? I'd have thought the part in the Ynnari rules about native stratagems not being useable on Ynnari units even if they have the relevant keyword would prevent it.
Oh nevermind. I'd missed that restriction.
Blimey, for a faction with such restrictive list-building requirements Ynnari certainly don't get a lot of perks.
vipoid wrote: One thing I thought of regarding Dark Eldar - as far as I can see, the Alliance of Agony stratagem still works if you're using Ynnari. So you could have, say, Lord of Rebirth on a Warlord-Archon, and then use Alliance of Agony to get Walker of Many Paths on a Succubus (for rerolls in combat and CP regeneration).
Probably quite niche but I thought it worth mentioning.
Would this work? I'd have thought the part in the Ynnari rules about native stratagems not being useable on Ynnari units even if they have the relevant keyword would prevent it.
Oh nevermind. I'd missed that restriction.
Blimey, for a faction with such restrictive list-building requirements Ynnari certainly don't get a lot of perks.
Weirdly I think it would work if your warlord was an ynarri archon and you wanted to give a succubus and a haemonculus a trait. That doesn't affect the ynarri unit.
Drager wrote: Weirdly I think it would work if your warlord was an ynarri archon and you wanted to give a succubus and a haemonculus a trait. That doesn't affect the ynarri unit.
Drager wrote: Weirdly I think it would work if your warlord was an ynarri archon and you wanted to give a succubus and a haemonculus a trait. That doesn't affect the ynarri unit.
That's a good point.
I dont think this works he will need to be not Ynnari. But thats perfect if you take a Spearhead Ravager list with Succubus Ynnari and your Haemonculus detachment
I have a question. REBORN replaces <Craftworld>, <Kabal>, <Wych Cult> and <Masque> on the datasheets of those unit you want to make Ynnari.
I kinda like that way because it allows units to keep Battle focus, Rising Crescendo and Power form Pain, which was previously replaced. It also makes it so that you can't use <Coven> units, without specifically calling them out, and you can't have <Aliatoc> or other traits.
In all, seem fairly elegant, if wordy.
But here's my question: Do we think we'll get an FAQ shortly after the WD "officially" come out to also replace those <Keywords> in other places?
For example, Autarchs grant reroll 1s to hit for <Craftworld> units with 6". Currently, we are allowed to replace <Craftworld> with ALAITOC, SAIM-HANN, etc according to what the Autarch chose to replace on his datasheet.
So what currently stops REBORN from being replaced in this ability in the same manner?
Seems like that would open up a few options, like having a CWE detachment just for an Autarch or 2 along with a DE detachment with tons of Razorwing swarms. Both would have REBORN and thus the Razorwings could get reroll ones
It's not <Reborn>, it's <Reborn Asuryani>, <Reborn Drukhari> or <Reborn Harlequins>. An Ynnari Autarch isn't going to be able to buff Kabalites, but a Ynnari Succubus would.
Drager wrote: Weirdly I think it would work if your warlord was an ynarri archon and you wanted to give a succubus and a haemonculus a trait. That doesn't affect the ynarri unit.
That's a good point.
I dont think this works he will need to be not Ynnari. But thats perfect if you take a Spearhead Ravager list with Succubus Ynnari and your Haemonculus detachment
Burnage wrote: It's not <Reborn>, it's <Reborn Asuryani>, <Reborn Drukhari> or <Reborn Harlequins>. An Ynnari Autarch isn't going to be able to buff Kabalites, but a Ynnari Succubus would.
Ah, fair enough. Still don't have the WD and the leaked photos get lost in the pages and pages of various threads.
Shadenuat wrote: Autarch re-roll is part of Path of Command which he loses.
How doe she lose that? Kind makes Ynnari Autarchs a bit worthless compared to straight CWE ones.
Burnage wrote: It's not <Reborn>, it's <Reborn Asuryani>, <Reborn Drukhari> or <Reborn Harlequins>. An Ynnari Autarch isn't going to be able to buff Kabalites, but a Ynnari Succubus would.
Ah, fair enough. Still don't have the WD and the leaked photos get lost in the pages and pages of various threads.
Shadenuat wrote: Autarch re-roll is part of Path of Command which he loses.
How doe she lose that? Kind makes Ynnari Autarchs a bit worthless compared to straight CWE ones.
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I don't think he loses that. I might be misreading my white dwarf, does anyone have a page reference where the Autarch loses path of command, if he does so?
Can anyone who has the rules/can find them confirm that the "Reclaim the Galaxy" Obsec rules applies to ALL Reborn/Ynnari units, not just Troops? That could potentially be pretty big.
Galef wrote: Can anyone who has the rules/can find them confirm that the "Reclaim the Galaxy" Obsec rules applies to ALL Reborn/Ynnari units, not just Troops? That could potentially be pretty big.
Galef wrote: Can anyone who has the rules/can find them confirm that the "Reclaim the Galaxy" Obsec rules applies to ALL Reborn/Ynnari units, not just Troops? That could potentially be pretty big.
Yeah, I misread PoW for Path of Command, my bad. So I guess Autarch will grant re-rolls to <Reborn Asuryani>.
Meaning you get yourself a dude with re-roll, he still could restore CP if Warlord (I guess?), which frees you a command trait, and you can make him a total beatstick with relics and warlord trait - way above Visarch and 20 points cheaper.
My personal pick would be laser lance, +1A, +1S and locket for +1 A and Mv after kill. Since he's Biker he could also charge after Advance.
You can make some decent, cheap, beatstick HQs. An Archon with Huskblade, Corag Hais locket and the Warden of Souls trait is not bad at all, 6 S5 AP-2 Dd3 attacks, hitting on 2's rerolling and 2 versions of melee doom available for 76 points and getting an extra attack for each succesful unit kill. A Wraithseer with Lord of Rebirth and Mirrorgaze is very tanky at 100. There's a few Autarch builds that look nice too.
For going a bit Hero Hammery you could take both of the above and a regular Archon with Djinn Blade (but no WL trait). At that point you have a pretty fierce 250 points of stabby.
So besides Triple Wraithlords with a Wraithblade (or even Wraithguard) deathstar and Razorwing spam, are there any other builds starting to spring to mind?
Aside from the aforementioned Wraith list, I don't see too much merit for Craftwordl Eldar to go Ynnari. DE and Harlies seem like they have decent options
Galef wrote: So besides Triple Wraithlords with a Wraithblade (or even Wraithguard) deathstar and Razorwing spam, are there any other builds starting to spring to mind?
Aside from the aforementioned Wraith list, I don't see too much merit for Craftwordl Eldar to go Ynnari. DE and Harlies seem like they have decent options
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*Plugs Wraithseer again*
I also like the Jetseer Council, though it might be better as craftworlds, depending on the build. Running alongside a unit (or 2) of DE reavers will give the Reavers a 5++, fixing their resilience issues and they synergise well as they can gang up on hard targets with Doom Lite or take a unit of 30 boys each without ending up outside of the bubble. They are also the only unit I can see making good use of Storm of Whispers, as 3d6 6s are mortals is crap on one unit, but against every unit in the opponents army, suddenly it's doing a lot of damage.
Reavers make out great from this, the 5++ and Doom Lite powers really shine for them, as does Advance and Charge and +1 Attack (if you are mental and go triple Ynarri). Even without the extra attack a unit of 10-12 can down Eldar fliers of all varieties in one turn, blow up entire squads of Boyz and murder blend IG infantry (even having a couple of spare bikes to tri point a unit you didn't assault). DE Reavers just can't do that, they aren't killy or resilient enough to be worth it. Also being able to be buffed by an Archon helps with redundancy.
With regards to the Yncarne in a bike spam list it's actually.... kinda ok? The bikes murderblend something then Yncarne can teleport into the middle of a blob of bikes, ready to cause mayhem int he opponetns end of the board and maintaining character protection behind a tough (or if you tri pointed something, near invulnearable) unit.
If i am understanding this stuff correctly, then you could potentially give a wraithknight the 5++/6+++ buff right? Would that make it so the shooty version could actually see some play in a semi competitive way?
One issue I'm seeing with a lot of the suggestions for units that work well with the new Ynnari is that they tend to rely on synergy with Shield of Ynnead.
Except that's one psychic power, and even with good unit placement it's not going to be covering your entire army. Feels like a slight issue to me.
Yncarne is a big model, easier to put stuff around her, and teleports. She could probably cover many, many of your wytches even if they deep strike.
If i am understanding this stuff correctly, then you could potentially give a wraithknight the 5++/6+++ buff right? Would that make it so the shooty version could actually see some play in a semi competitive way?
You can give WK even 4++ using Vigilus detachment, but just like power, if it's not your first turn, you will eat everything.
Thing is, we assume that we want invul on WK because Wraithcannons are somehow worth it, but they are not.
Weird everyone is talking about reavers.. I meantioned reavers being useful on general discussion and some of you aeldari players laughed at me and said “reavers are useless.”
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Weird everyone is talking about reavers.. I meantioned reavers being useful on general discussion and some of you aeldari players laughed at me and said “reavers are useless.”
Wouldn't be surprised if the same people still hold that opinion.
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Burnage wrote: One issue I'm seeing with a lot of the suggestions for units that work well with the new Ynnari is that they tend to rely on synergy with Shield of Ynnead.
Except that's one psychic power, and even with good unit placement it's not going to be covering your entire army. Feels like a slight issue to me.
With a Warlock Council it will cover your whole army. With the Wraith detachmetn we;ve been talking about it will cover all 5-6 of your Ynarri models. Aslo it's unit within 6, not model, so you only need the hair of one base within.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Weird everyone is talking about reavers.. I meantioned reavers being useful on general discussion and some of you aeldari players laughed at me and said “reavers are useless.”
Wouldn't be surprised if the same people still hold that opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Burnage wrote: One issue I'm seeing with a lot of the suggestions for units that work well with the new Ynnari is that they tend to rely on synergy with Shield of Ynnead.
Except that's one psychic power, and even with good unit placement it's not going to be covering your entire army. Feels like a slight issue to me.
With a Warlock Council it will cover your whole army. With the Wraith detachmetn we;ve been talking about it will cover all 5-6 of your Ynarri models. Aslo it's unit within 6, not model, so you only need the hair of one base within.
Those are going to be the people that are to afraid to try something new to see if it has any merit in the new rules. They’d rather take what they know will win that try something new
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Weird everyone is talking about reavers.. I meantioned reavers being useful on general discussion and some of you aeldari players laughed at me and said “reavers are useless.”
Wouldn't be surprised if the same people still hold that opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Burnage wrote: One issue I'm seeing with a lot of the suggestions for units that work well with the new Ynnari is that they tend to rely on synergy with Shield of Ynnead.
Except that's one psychic power, and even with good unit placement it's not going to be covering your entire army. Feels like a slight issue to me.
With a Warlock Council it will cover your whole army. With the Wraith detachmetn we;ve been talking about it will cover all 5-6 of your Ynarri models. Aslo it's unit within 6, not model, so you only need the hair of one base within.
The only issue is warlock council can be targeted and killed first than your aura will shrink. There is reason players don`t run council, except when they try Vigilus detachment hit and run tactic.
Thoughts on shining spears as new Ynnari vs. Saim-Hann?
They never gained a lot from Saim-Hann besides advance and still charge strat which Ynnari still have albeit at a an extra CP. Obviously they've gone down in power from their previous incarnation, but is it worth dragging a Ynnari character in as opposed to just running them Craftworlds?
Also, I'm playing around with the idea of a United In Death list, a large squad of shining spears seems like it would benefit immensely from it.
Azuza001 wrote: Except we can deep stike the knight to help protect it, but i do understand what you mean by the cannons not worth the entry fee..... sad too.
Can we? Ynnari can DS infantry, bikers and beasts.
darkarchonlord wrote: They never gained a lot from Saim-Hann besides advance and still charge strat
Re-roll all charges, charge after advancing, re-roll hits of 1 in close combat. Biel Tan - re-roll hits of 1 and +2 to charge, re-roll catapult shots of 1 and +1 Ld. And then you get your Nova-lance.
No, Craftworld spears were never bad at all, it's just that Ynnari could have everything at once and even multiple (like naming 1 squad Saim Hann, another - Biel Tan). And then there is Quicken, Protect, Conceal, etc.
If you start them on the table, Alaitoc imo is better, if you use Spears as fire and forget unit, then Biel Tan/Saim Hann is not bad and won't take away from you as much as Ynnari Spears imo.
Not that it's a bad unit to run in Ynnari anyway, but I really feel Craftworlds just give you more options to run them (the most important one being Quicken).
They never gained a lot from Saim-Hann besides advance and still charge strat which Ynnari still have albeit at a an extra CP. Obviously they've gone down in power from their previous incarnation, but is it worth dragging a Ynnari character in as opposed to just running them Craftworlds?
Well if your idea is to have 300 + point suicidal unit that can do a lot of damage and probably die in the next turn.
CWE have better defensive fortune, protect, conceal, better offensive spells guide, empower,doom, jinx, and Saim-Hann stratagem is cheaper and give you reroll of 1.
It`s better to buff one big CWESS unit than one Ynnari SS unit.
Skyweavers can do that by default and you don`t really want them in close combat most of the time.
Maybe only DE bikes get the better end of it, but not by much.
The stratagems are just so bad or copy pasta from other codexe.
Unique strategems:
Taste for death - below trash tier, totally unusable;
The great enemy - trash tier in 98% of the time;
Exalted by Ynnead - the warlord traits look amassing, until you noticed Ynnari characters have to pick the worst choice for the hero and you can`t use named characters(regardless of lore and logic) and we know most of the aeldar characters are terrible in close comb at, low attacks, low strangt, low toughness. This make the stratagam only good.
Soul of the strongest- bad, to situational it will be lucky to manage to kill enemy warlord and still have CP.
Inevitable fate - good, but you can do the some with psychic power and doom is still better in most cases.
Whispering spirits - bad, but most of the horde armies can easily disable LD bombs and you can`t build army arround this mechanic.
Acolyte of ynnead - trash tier, first you have to kill enemy unit and than you get +3 on spells you need from 5-7.
Ynneads net - decent, only useful for DE.
Reborn together - bad, you have to many ways to negate LD that will not coast expensive CP.
United in death - should be amassing if the Ynnari characters were priced properly, for now is only good.
Shrine of the whispering god - bad, Incubi bomb could probably do fun things, but 2 CP is to much.
The rest are generic and other armies can them or do them even better.
because it`s now Ynnari stratagem and you can use it on other units, like skyweavers, ravagers. The stratagem is the some, but can have different value with other units.
Marin wrote: Well if your idea is to have 300 + point suicidal unit that can do a lot of damage and probably die in the next turn.
I'm toying with a United In Death list and +1 atks on a large spear squad is huge. The idea would be for them to be backed up with a banshee mask autarch, some troops in starweavers, and... something deldar (still working on that...) so they're not alone. They get reroll from the Autarch so nothing lost there. A spears squad is a somewhat economical and very synergetic way to cover the Craftworld side of things, for CP I'm looking at a harlequins batallion.
Yea, they do lose re-roll charge which could definitely hurt... Wraithblades in a wave serpent a good choice too, but really expensive. Also spears are really good for triggering SFD, it's really hard for them to not kill SOMETHING in the shooting phase. 6+ FNP from the Yncarne does help with their suitability too.
I do like the idea of an autarch skyrunner with warden of souls too, +1 atk is pretty solid compared to the craftworld traits. The lost shroud relic makes it pretty durable too. We absolutely need a points drop for the Triumverate though, it's a damn shame it wasn't fixed in WD.
What other models from Craftworlds would actually make an impact with UID?
I`m thinking about wraithguard(flamer) with bonesinger and word of the phoenix. Yncarne can give them 6++ and fearless aura T6 unit. The problem is it`s expensive, slow and to little CP and i`ll need some very good range to be able to hit heavy hitters on the edge of the table.
I think the inevitable truth is that we are trying to dig for the best answers when really the best answers are to stick with the original codex. Running a small detachment in a mixed Aeldari force might have merit, but it's not great.
I think there's some sticker shock right now that the tactics we were using aren't viable, but with a little bit of time I think you'll see people still getting quite a bit of mileage out of the Ynnari.
I think the ideas on reavers are interesting - but I can't say I am especially convinced. Depending on how you bling them out (blasters, grav talons) its not that expensive. But its also... not all that much of a critical mass. I guess the shooting and incredible movement shouldn't be totally discounted - but this isn't 20 kraken genestealers charging into your lines.
Lets say you throw your 230~ point unit in a flyer. I reckon you have around a 50/50 chance to tear it down (more if you shoot it too+mortal wounds). But that flyer probably wasn't all that expensive. I mean a razorwing jetfighter is 135~ - a Crimson Hunter is about 160?
Some simplistic theorycraft:
On the reavers - take strife for 4 A versus ynnari 3 A with WS2+.
Versus Marines, Ynnari/Strife:
3*5/6*1/2*1/2=0.625.
4*2/3*1/2*1/2=0.666.
Okay, break out the 2 CP reroll wounds for Ynnari and its a material increase:
3*5/6*3/4*1/2=0.9375.
But then if its turn 2 (and I realise the point may be a first turn charge - but still, hopefully the unit isn't wiped out immediately) I could break out Architects of Pain on the strife squad to to hit on 2s.
In which case:
4*5/6*1/2*1/2=0.8333. Still worse - but not by miles.
Versus say a T6, 5++ target.
3*5/6*1/3*2/3=0.55
4*2/3*1/3*2/3=0.59
In other words you are really relying on unbind souls/inevitable fate to get the uplift.
There is also perhaps a hint of history here. In a pre-FAQ world you could have doomed the target of whatever you are charging the reavers into (although obviously you can't doom everything). Reavers were not a thing then, so not really sure why they would be now even if the psychic power+ stratagem is a bit more flexible.
You can say "the potential to advance and charge changes everything" - but on a M18 flyer I'm not convinced. I'm in the "Red Grief isn't very good" school of thought (even if the relic is nice). I feel in a lot of deployments you are going to have a reasonable shot of a first turn charge - especially with the new FAQ restoring flying charges. Also how many CP are you spending just for this turn 1 charge? Potentially 4 CP on net and inevitable fate feels like a lot when you probably don't have many. (Double batallion about as much as you can hope for I think?)
Theoretically psychic+stratagem allows for two buffed up units, but you can't take the +1 attack on more squads unless you are bringing a bunch of other covens units - and without the +1 attack your damage output is quite a bit lower.
This is a bit negative - I agree buffed up reavers are probably a better shout than buffed up Banshees/Scorpions, let alone big blobs of Storm Guardians - but eh. Its still kind of mediocre.
bullyboy wrote:I think the inevitable truth is that we are trying to dig for the best answers when really the best answers are to stick with the original codex. Running a small detachment in a mixed Aeldari force might have merit, but it's not great.
I have a feeling this is going to be true until some specific combinations arise. Which leads me to the second point ...
vipoid wrote:Any thoughts on using Dark Eldar Ynnari?
I think there really could be something there for Wych cults in Ynnari. To be fair, the extent of my Drukhari play has been limited to Covens and Kabals, but I can see some potential there (even if it's merely using Yvraine to fill out a Kabal battalion).
Autarchs can be very good as Ynnari, if you do it right, it does require index options
Autarch Skyrunner, Reaper Launcher, Banshee Masker, Laser Lance, Pistol. Relic- Corag Hai's Locket "Each time an enemy is destroyed with an attack made by the bearer, add 1 tot he bearer's attacks and movement characteristics" WL trait - Walker of Many Paths (Re-roll 1 hit and 1 wound each turn, 5+ to regain a CP) WL trait cost 1 CP
Turn 1, shoot a Reaper Launcher to get the final blow, +1 A/M, (17" movement with 5 attacks base)
Turn 2 Shoot Reaper Launcher again, +1 A/M (18" movement with 6 base attacks base)
Charge turn 2, No overwatch, Str 6 ont he charge, 6 attacks hitting on 2+, -4ap 2D, get a kill (19" movement with 7 attacks base)
Turn 3, Shoot and another kill, now 20" with 8 base attacks, Charge.
I don't think Wraithguard/Blades do very well out of Ynnari. 5-6 In a Wave serpent might be ok, but a footslogging unit really needs the Craftworlds defensive buffs.
Spears also really like Craftworld defensive buffs, but at least they gain the advance and charge strat.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I don't think Wraithguard/Blades do very well out of Ynnari. 5-6 In a Wave serpent might be ok, but a footslogging unit really needs the Craftworlds defensive buffs.
Spears also really like Craftworld defensive buffs, but at least they gain the advance and charge strat.
Wraithguard like the Ynarri defensive buffs too. 3+/5++/6+++ is pretty nice and it still lets you use the Craftworld defensive buffs somewhere else.
Incidentally, I've done a little bit of calculation on return on investment in a single turn for a few options. I've pitted Ynarri Shining Spears and Ynarri reavers against each other, Strife Reavers and Black Heart ravagers. Both ynarri units come out looking pretty decent. When Is ay all units have reroll 1s in the assumption, obviously the Strife reavers don't for shooting as that's not possible for them.
The whole numbers are wounds suffered after all defences. The ROI is a percentage of the attacking units points returned in a single turn. This includes shooting and charging (except the Ravager, no charge there).
Well , so they have more shoots except when the unit need to advance.
Full squad of 12 is less expensive than 6SS+Exarch, reavers are only 19 pts per model, so they have more shoots except when the unit need to advance and more attacks.
With power from pain and combat drugs they become better during the game. Ynnari can give them better defense that they already had, so they look like a winner from the change.
Well , so they have more shoots except when the unit need to advance.
Full squad of 12 is less expensive than 6SS+Exarch, reavers are only 19 pts per model, so they have more shoots except when the unit need to advance and more attacks.
With power from pain and combat drugs they become better during the game. Ynnari can give them better defense that they already had, so they look like a winner from the change.
The Shning Spears have better shooting against all targets, if you limit this to just combat it pulls the reavers ahead.
Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
Galef wrote: Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
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Why not take both? I mean they do different things and Ynarri Reavers give a stunning ROI on infantry targets, spears (of any stripe) are better against vehicles and hard targets. Also it means the reavers can use all the Ynarri buffs and the Spears can use the CWE ones.
Galef wrote: Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
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Why not take both? I mean they do different things and Ynarri Reavers give a stunning ROI on infantry targets, spears (of any stripe) are better against vehicles and hard targets. Also it means the reavers can use all the Ynarri buffs and the Spears can use the CWE ones.
If you are doing an all jetbike list, sure. All I was saying is that given the choice between the two, I'd pick CWE Spears every time.
Protect, Fortune, Doom, Alaitoc, etc are all things that amplify the baseline of Spears (which is already better than the baseline of Reavers) way more than Ynnari can boost Reavers.
Doom + Spear's Shuricats will mulch just about any infantry, then they can charge "harder targets". Reavers can't do both in the same turn.
Galef wrote: Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
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Why not take both? I mean they do different things and Ynarri Reavers give a stunning ROI on infantry targets, spears (of any stripe) are better against vehicles and hard targets. Also it means the reavers can use all the Ynarri buffs and the Spears can use the CWE ones.
If you are doing an all jetbike list, sure. All I was saying is that given the choice between the two, I'd pick CWE Spears every time.
Protect, Fortune, Doom, Alaitoc, etc are all things that amplify the baseline of Spears (which is already better than the baseline of Reavers) way more than Ynnari can boost Reavers.
Doom + Spear's Shuricats will mulch just about any infantry, then they can charge "harder targets". Reavers can't do both in the same turn.
I'm going to do the comparison for them and add them in. I agree with you, but I'd like to see the difference between them.
Edit: Yvraine with fake doom and 5++ aura might be better than the Visarch.
Wow. That seems... really expensive for what you're getting. It pains me to think of what 450 points buys me with other factions or even with pre-nerf Ynnari. 30x buffed scorpions just doesn't seem to compare to something like 60 plaguebearers. Or 40 Kraken genestealers. Or you know, a knight.
I've added in Craftworld spears to the above and it makes me sorely tempted to take a unit of them and a unit of reavers. At 480 (550 ish if you add a couple more spears) points for the pair you are comfortable in taking out a Knight + a good chunk of guardsmen, or a huge swathe of Orks. Both units are versatile when buffed and they don't compete with each other for buffs.
37x Kraken genestealers will deploy 40-50" away behind a screen. The first unit will be in your face T1 and the second unit will be in your face T2 for maybe 1CP per squad. Scorpions can't come down until T2 and even then odds are less than half will make their charges (can they buff their charges out of deep strike?). On T2 half the genestealers would also likely be catalyzed for a 5+++.
Maybe the scorpions get lucky, make their charges, and kill a couple of genestealers but at that point your entire front line is already gone. And even if they all miraculously made their charges, killing 37x 5++/5+++ models is no easy feat. Catalyzed genestealers have plaguebearer-level durability.
karandrasss wrote: How are Alaitoc spears supposed to do more damage against a Knight?
Because they benefit from Doom and have shooting weapons that are AP-3 against them (because you only get successful wound on 6, which triggers AP-3). They're Lances also have AP-4 and Damage 2 in BOTH shooting and melee. CWE benefit from Jinx, so even with Rotate Ion Shields, the Crusader will only have a 5++ against that shooting. And will have NO save in melee against their Damage 2 weapons
EDIT: regarding your edit, yes, I agree the ROI probably isn't that high once you factor in the Psykers providing the buffs. Although a Farseer and at least 1 Runes of Battle Psyker are pretty standard for CWE lists and are doing more than just buffing the Spears, so I wouldn't put their whole points cost into that equation
karandrasss wrote: How are Alaitoc spears supposed to do more damage against a Knight?
Because they benefit from Doom and have shooting weapons that are AP-3 against them (because you only get successful wound on 6, which triggers AP-3). They're Lances also have AP-4 and Damage 2 in BOTH shooting and melee.
CWE benefit from Jinx, so even with Rotate Ion Shields, the Crusader will only have a 5++ against that shooting. And will have NO save in melee against their Damage 2 weapons
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Does the ROI take into account the cost of support units?
SO how's this at 1500, intended for a 2k or 1750 list, so still points to play with.
Alaitoc Battalion
Farseer Skyrunner, Doom, Guide
Warlock Skyrunner, Protect/Jinx or Quicken/Restrain depending on matchup
2x 5 Rangers
8 Storm Guardians
9 Shining Spears (including Exarch)
Reborn Drukharii Battalion
Succubus, Hypex, The Lost Shroud, Warden of Souls
Visarch
3x5 Kabalite Warriors
12 Reavers, 4 Grav Talons
Reborn Asuryani Supreme Command
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, Repear Launcher, Corag Hai's Locket, Walker of the Many Paths
Warlock Skyrunner, Shield of Ynnead (Hangs out with Reavers)
Yvraine, Ancestor's Grace, Unbind Souls
Automatically Appended Next Post:
karandrasss wrote: Alaitoc spears + support units makes twice its points back against a Knight? How does that work? Spears + support cost more than a Knight, no? Does the ROI take into account the cost of support units?
The cost of the support isn't included for anything. Farseer and Yvraine are similar costs and the above is without Jinx, but both builds would probably have a warlock anyway, so a wash again. Also the support units are the HQs required to take the detachment so will always be in the army regardless.
Drager wrote: SO how's this at 1500, intended for a 2k or 1750 list, so still points to play with.
Alaitoc Battalion
Farseer Skyrunner, Doom, Guide
Warlock Skyrunner, Protect/Jinx or Quicken/Restrain depending on matchup
2x 5 Rangers
8 Storm Guardians
9 Shining Spears (including Exarch)
Reborn Drukharii Battalion
Succubus, Hypex, The Lost Shroud, Warden of Souls
Visarch
3x5 Kabalite Warriors
12 Reavers, 4 Grav Talons
Reborn Asuryani Supreme Command
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, Repear Launcher, Corag Hai's Locket, Walker of the Many Paths
Warlock Skyrunner, Shield of Ynnead (Hangs out with Reavers)
Yvraine, Ancestor's Grace, Unbind Souls
Automatically Appended Next Post:
karandrasss wrote: Alaitoc spears + support units makes twice its points back against a Knight? How does that work? Spears + support cost more than a Knight, no?
The cost of the support isn't included for anything. Farseer and Yvraine are similar costs and the above is without Jinx, but both builds would probably have a warlock anyway, so a wash again.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I don't think Wraithguard/Blades do very well out of Ynnari. 5-6 In a Wave serpent might be ok, but a footslogging unit really needs the Craftworlds defensive buffs.
Spears also really like Craftworld defensive buffs, but at least they gain the advance and charge strat.
Wraithguard like the Ynarri defensive buffs too. 3+/5++/6+++ is pretty nice and it still lets you use the Craftworld defensive buffs somewhere else.
Incidentally, I've done a little bit of calculation on return on investment in a single turn for a few options. I've pitted Ynarri Shining Spears and Ynarri reavers against each other, Strife Reavers and Black Heart ravagers. Both ynarri units come out looking pretty decent. When Is ay all units have reroll 1s in the assumption, obviously the Strife reavers don't for shooting as that's not possible for them.
The whole numbers are wounds suffered after all defences. The ROI is a percentage of the attacking units points returned in a single turn. This includes shooting and charging (except the Ravager, no charge there).
How did you get to 19/21? Three spears no buffs is only 1.78 vs. Knights. That's quite a leap.
Drager wrote: SO how's this at 1500, intended for a 2k or 1750 list, so still points to play with.
Alaitoc Battalion
Farseer Skyrunner, Doom, Guide
Warlock Skyrunner, Protect/Jinx or Quicken/Restrain depending on matchup
2x 5 Rangers
8 Storm Guardians
9 Shining Spears (including Exarch)
Reborn Drukharii Battalion
Succubus, Hypex, The Lost Shroud, Warden of Souls
Visarch
3x5 Kabalite Warriors
12 Reavers, 4 Grav Talons
Reborn Asuryani Supreme Command
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, Repear Launcher, Corag Hai's Locket, Walker of the Many Paths
Warlock Skyrunner, Shield of Ynnead (Hangs out with Reavers)
Yvraine, Ancestor's Grace, Unbind Souls
Automatically Appended Next Post:
karandrasss wrote: Alaitoc spears + support units makes twice its points back against a Knight? How does that work? Spears + support cost more than a Knight, no?
The cost of the support isn't included for anything. Farseer and Yvraine are similar costs and the above is without Jinx, but both builds would probably have a warlock anyway, so a wash again.
What happens when spears gets focused?
Then you use the reavers and the other 500 points of stuff not in that core list, as to take out the spears it has to be the case that you couldn't hide them in deployment and they dumped a tonne of fire in as -2 to hit spears are pretty resilient, so they won't have much left to shoot out the reavers or other things. I don't think this list is good enough at 1500, which is why I said it's a core for a 2k/1750 list.
Scorpions come down and pistol away. There is no catalyst cause we didn't pay for a nuerothrope.
23 hits, 11.5 wounds, 4 saves. so we are down to 30 vs 31.5 just from shooting.
3 units charging, 2 making it on average with a CP reroll.
we'll both into the unbuffed unit because logic. the uncatalyzed stealers get hit 42 times and take 21 wounds so loose another 14 guys.
Darn I forgot mandiblasters. One squad of stealers wiped and still 30 striking scorpions.
Turn 2, the stealers are gonna get some revenge. They charge, only loosing 2.5 in overwatch. Combat starts and mandiblasters go off, killing another 5 or so (two units of scorpions get 2 mandiblaster rounds). The remain 12 genestealers do have 48 attacks though.
32 hits, 21 wounds, 4 of which will be rends on average. ouch, looks like 13 scorpions die, causing moral checks on 2 units at the end of the turn.
7 scorpions fight back, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 3 save if their lucky.
5 scorpions will run away, meaning 12 scorpions are left againgst 8 genestealers.
Drager wrote: SO how's this at 1500, intended for a 2k or 1750 list, so still points to play with.
Alaitoc Battalion
Farseer Skyrunner, Doom, Guide
Warlock Skyrunner, Protect/Jinx or Quicken/Restrain depending on matchup
2x 5 Rangers
8 Storm Guardians
9 Shining Spears (including Exarch)
Reborn Drukharii Battalion
Succubus, Hypex, The Lost Shroud, Warden of Souls
Visarch
3x5 Kabalite Warriors
12 Reavers, 4 Grav Talons
Reborn Asuryani Supreme Command
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, Repear Launcher, Corag Hai's Locket, Walker of the Many Paths
Warlock Skyrunner, Shield of Ynnead (Hangs out with Reavers)
Yvraine, Ancestor's Grace, Unbind Souls
Automatically Appended Next Post:
karandrasss wrote: Alaitoc spears + support units makes twice its points back against a Knight? How does that work? Spears + support cost more than a Knight, no?
The cost of the support isn't included for anything. Farseer and Yvraine are similar costs and the above is without Jinx, but both builds would probably have a warlock anyway, so a wash again.
What happens when spears gets focused?
Then you use the reavers and the other 500 points of stuff not in that core list, as to take out the spears it has to be the case that you couldn't hide them in deployment and they dumped a tonne of fire in as -2 to hit spears are pretty resilient, so they won't have much left to shoot out the reavers or other things. I don't think this list is good enough at 1500, which is why I said it's a core for a 2k/1750 list.
Without Saim Hann reroll charges/advance and charge, they could also be just stuck somewhere after moving out.
karandrasss wrote: How did you get to 19/21? Three spears no buffs is only 1.78 vs. Knights. That's quite a leap.
Ynnari Spears Shooting
Hit on 3s, reroll 1s that's 7/9
Wound With Laser Lance 1/3
Are saved 1/2
That gives 7/54
This is then multiplied by 2 for the damage, giving 14/54
Then by 7 for the number of shots 98/54
Wound With Shuricats 1/6
Are saved 1/2
That gives 1/12
Then by 28 for the number of shots 28/12
We then add these together to get 126/54 (28/12) + 98/54 = 224/54 = 4 4/27
Ynnari Spears Shooting
Hit on 2s, reroll 1s that's 35/36
Reroll to Wound With Laser Lance 1/3 + 2/3*1/3 = 1/3 + 2/9 = 5/9
Go straight through Armour
That gives 5/9
This is then multiplied by 2 for the damage, giving 10/9
Then by 14 for the number of attacks 140/9
We then add this to the shooting 4 + 420/27 + 4/27 = 4 + 424/27 = 19 19/27
I haven't proofed that so may have made an error somewhere doing it in my head and not rereading, but the main table I did in excel and did check, so should be fine.
Drager wrote: SO how's this at 1500, intended for a 2k or 1750 list, so still points to play with.
Alaitoc Battalion
Farseer Skyrunner, Doom, Guide
Warlock Skyrunner, Protect/Jinx or Quicken/Restrain depending on matchup
2x 5 Rangers
8 Storm Guardians
9 Shining Spears (including Exarch)
Reborn Drukharii Battalion
Succubus, Hypex, The Lost Shroud, Warden of Souls
Visarch
3x5 Kabalite Warriors
12 Reavers, 4 Grav Talons
Reborn Asuryani Supreme Command
Autarch Skyrunner, Laser Lance, Repear Launcher, Corag Hai's Locket, Walker of the Many Paths
Warlock Skyrunner, Shield of Ynnead (Hangs out with Reavers)
Yvraine, Ancestor's Grace, Unbind Souls
Automatically Appended Next Post:
karandrasss wrote: Alaitoc spears + support units makes twice its points back against a Knight? How does that work? Spears + support cost more than a Knight, no?
The cost of the support isn't included for anything. Farseer and Yvraine are similar costs and the above is without Jinx, but both builds would probably have a warlock anyway, so a wash again.
What happens when spears gets focused?
Then you use the reavers and the other 500 points of stuff not in that core list, as to take out the spears it has to be the case that you couldn't hide them in deployment and they dumped a tonne of fire in as -2 to hit spears are pretty resilient, so they won't have much left to shoot out the reavers or other things. I don't think this list is good enough at 1500, which is why I said it's a core for a 2k/1750 list.
Without Saim Hann reroll charges/advance and charge, they could also be just stuck somewhere after moving out.
Depends on the board, if that was likely you can take Quicken, as I said in the description. I tend to take Saim Hann myself, but Galef prefers Alaitoc, hence the suggested list based on his questions earlier in the thread.
Scorpions come down and pistol away. There is no catalyst cause we didn't pay for a nuerothrope.
23 hits, 11.5 wounds, 4 saves. so we are down to 30 vs 31.5 just from shooting.
3 units charging, 2 making it on average with a CP reroll.
we'll both into the unbuffed unit because logic. the uncatalyzed stealers get hit 42 times and take 21 wounds so loose another 14 guys.
Darn I forgot mandiblasters. One squad of stealers wiped and still 30 striking scorpions.
Turn 2, the stealers are gonna get some revenge. They charge, only loosing 2.5 in overwatch. Combat starts and mandiblasters go off, killing another 5 or so (two units of scorpions get 2 mandiblaster rounds). The remain 12 genestealers do have 48 attacks though.
32 hits, 21 wounds, 4 of which will be rends on average. ouch, looks like 13 scorpions die, causing moral checks on 2 units at the end of the turn.
7 scorpions fight back, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 3 save if their lucky.
5 scorpions will run away, meaning 12 scorpions are left againgst 8 genestealers.
Its honeslty pretty close, but the scorps do win.
I mean all of this happens long after the 37x genestealers demolished your front lines so it's still an incredibly lopsided trade. All units gain a huge advantage while counter-charging a target. You could replace scorpions with 2x20 black guardians and they'd be even more effective, and they'll probably even survive afterward since they're not eating a gazillion genestealer attacks in melee. The issue with that scorpion setup isn't that it's useless, it's that scorpions are completely outperformed by other units in most (all?) roles.
If you're deep striking them into enemy lines you have to compare them with units in other factions with similar roles, for example 37x genestealers or 60x bloodletters. If you're using them to counter attack after an enemy charge, well, there are units in the CWE book or even other Ynnari units that will do a better job and for fewer points. As much as I love my aspect warriors... I'm not convinced.
I'm not sold on the Scorps myself. I'm trying to arrange a game against Nids in the next few days as I played Imperium soup yesterday and Orks on Monday with my Saim-Hann/Ynarri list. I think stealers have a real potential to give me trouble so am eager to play against them.
And if anyone is interested I tabled the ork player and won by a landslide as his Da Jump squad just killed trash and his Lootas could only see Venoms (they killed a couple). I went second so had the chance to counter deploy out of LoS with my bike units (not the list above, different units). On my turn 1, I killed ~120 Orks including all 3 of the 30 man boyz squads, after which it was just a case of mopping up.
The Imperium player conceded on turn 3, as I'd wiped Cawl and his bots, plus both smash captains and ~90% of the guard/skitarii units. I had the advantage of going first in this one, so will need to test against similar lists going second. Mephiston and the few remaining guardsmen were not going to win.
Galef wrote: Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
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Why not take both? I mean they do different things and Ynarri Reavers give a stunning ROI on infantry targets, spears (of any stripe) are better against vehicles and hard targets. Also it means the reavers can use all the Ynarri buffs and the Spears can use the CWE ones.
If you are doing an all jetbike list, sure. All I was saying is that given the choice between the two, I'd pick CWE Spears every time.
Protect, Fortune, Doom, Alaitoc, etc are all things that amplify the baseline of Spears (which is already better than the baseline of Reavers) way more than Ynnari can boost Reavers.
Doom + Spear's Shuricats will mulch just about any infantry, then they can charge "harder targets". Reavers can't do both in the same turn.
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I don`t think spears are good, suicide unit for 300+ is not going to cut it.
If you wanna play bikers you are better going with custodes.
Galef wrote: Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
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Why not take both? I mean they do different things and Ynarri Reavers give a stunning ROI on infantry targets, spears (of any stripe) are better against vehicles and hard targets. Also it means the reavers can use all the Ynarri buffs and the Spears can use the CWE ones.
If you are doing an all jetbike list, sure. All I was saying is that given the choice between the two, I'd pick CWE Spears every time.
Protect, Fortune, Doom, Alaitoc, etc are all things that amplify the baseline of Spears (which is already better than the baseline of Reavers) way more than Ynnari can boost Reavers.
Doom + Spear's Shuricats will mulch just about any infantry, then they can charge "harder targets". Reavers can't do both in the same turn.
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I don`t think spears are good, suicide unit for 300+ is not going to cut it.
If you wanna play bikers you are better going with custodes.
Custodes bikers are my biggest concern about bike-heavy Eldar lists. They're tough enough to survive a charge from a big unit of Spears or Reavers, then on their turn they turn around and murder the Eldar. In the (admittedly limited) games I've played involving them both it practically feels like a hard counter.
Galef wrote: Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
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Why not take both? I mean they do different things and Ynarri Reavers give a stunning ROI on infantry targets, spears (of any stripe) are better against vehicles and hard targets. Also it means the reavers can use all the Ynarri buffs and the Spears can use the CWE ones.
If you are doing an all jetbike list, sure. All I was saying is that given the choice between the two, I'd pick CWE Spears every time.
Protect, Fortune, Doom, Alaitoc, etc are all things that amplify the baseline of Spears (which is already better than the baseline of Reavers) way more than Ynnari can boost Reavers.
Doom + Spear's Shuricats will mulch just about any infantry, then they can charge "harder targets". Reavers can't do both in the same turn.
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I don`t think spears are good, suicide unit for 300+ is not going to cut it.
If you wanna play bikers you are better going with custodes.
Custodes bikers are my biggest concern about bike-heavy Eldar lists. They're tough enough to survive a charge from a big unit of Spears or Reavers, then on their turn they turn around and murder the Eldar. In the (admittedly limited) games I've played involving them both it practically feels like a hard counter.
Custodes bikers are nasty, especially for Aeldari biker units. Particularly, because the temptation to try and get that first turn charge is always there, but more often than not, it's a trap. Often times, I'll try and play ultra-conservative to whittle them down and bait them to charge a unit I'm willing to swap while having a counter ready.
Charging Custodes bikers without support and whittling them down often means, they will survive, you will be out of position and will lose your ~300point unit, and then you're left in a very precarious position.
Galef wrote: Regarding Reavers v Spears and Ynnari. I think given the posts above, I'd say Reavers are a better pick for Ynnari. They get more benefits than Spears do.
However, I'd also take Alaitoc Spears over Ynnari Reavers any day, so for me at least, it doesn't matter
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Why not take both? I mean they do different things and Ynarri Reavers give a stunning ROI on infantry targets, spears (of any stripe) are better against vehicles and hard targets. Also it means the reavers can use all the Ynarri buffs and the Spears can use the CWE ones.
If you are doing an all jetbike list, sure. All I was saying is that given the choice between the two, I'd pick CWE Spears every time.
Protect, Fortune, Doom, Alaitoc, etc are all things that amplify the baseline of Spears (which is already better than the baseline of Reavers) way more than Ynnari can boost Reavers.
Doom + Spear's Shuricats will mulch just about any infantry, then they can charge "harder targets". Reavers can't do both in the same turn.
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I don`t think spears are good, suicide unit for 300+ is not going to cut it.
If you wanna play bikers you are better going with custodes.
What if they get their points back twice over before dying?
I lost 2 venoms to lootaz and all of my storm guardians to a Da Jumping mob of Boyz. The Council put Jinx on the squad that had Da Jumped forward, then my Kabalites and Venoms wiped those 30 out. The Council at this point was in between the other two big blobs and Had Enhance on itself as well as Guide from the Farseer, which had Doomed one of the blobs. The Aturach was hanging around too. The Shuricats from the 11 bikes wiped the Doomed orks then the Autarch and Council charged the other one (not doomed) and wiped that in combat. The Reavers had moved up and shot at the Lootas (or maybe the aritllery I can't remember) and killed a bunch of Grots due to Grot Shields. They then charged into the lootas and some grots and wiped them. The lootas ahd moved up to be able to shoot the venoms, so were a bit further forwards than they would have been. Long charge though 8 or 9 inches.
Burnage wrote: Am I right that you've got over 600 points of Warlocks in there?
You are! I'm aware it's an odd list. If you have a suggestion for a tough match up let me know so I can get against it. Nice thing is they have a tiny footprint on the important 8 so hide easily.
Burnage wrote: Am I right that you've got over 600 points of Warlocks in there?
You are! I'm aware it's an odd list. If you have a suggestion for a tough match up let me know so I can get against it. Nice thing is they have a tiny footprint on the important 8 so hide easily.
Assassins, IK, custodes, GSC, snipper heavy armies
Ynnari Craftworld Spearhead (+1CP) - Yvraine - 132
- Swooping Hawk Autarch w/ Power Sword, Splinter Pistol, Avenger Shuriken Catapult, Banshee Mask, The Hungering Blade - 98 Warlord (Lord of Rebirth)
- 5 Dark Reapers (inc. Exarch) - 170
- Support Weapon w/ D-Cannon - 70
- Support Weapon w/ D-Cannon - 70
(1500pts; 8CPs)
Since the main thing I wanted from Ynnari was a character, I added a CWE detachment, and thus the DE units can still have their bonus. And since my DE lists tend to be light on anti-vehicle, I took the opportunity to add in some Dark Reapers and D-Cannons (not least because I already have some converted DE-Reapers and I think I could convert some appropriate-looking support weapons quite easily).
Yvraine will probably buff the Reapers with Ancestor's Grace and use Word of the Phoenix to either revive Reapers or heal the support weapons.
Burnage wrote: Am I right that you've got over 600 points of Warlocks in there?
You are! I'm aware it's an odd list. If you have a suggestion for a tough match up let me know so I can get against it. Nice thing is they have a tiny footprint on the important 8 so hide easily.
Assassins, IK, custodes, GSC, snipper heavy armies
Thanks. I already tested earlier versions against IK and custards, they were fine, but I'll give them another go. The others should be fun.
vipoid wrote: Since the main thing I wanted from Ynnari was a character, I added a CWE detachment, and thus the DE units can still have their bonus.
You know that Ynnari characters don't break DE bonuses, right? They're like mercenaries.
Yeah but I wanted to make use of the Ynnari Warlord traits and artefacts (for flavour purposes). Otherwise I wouldn't even bother including the characters at all.
(Also, I meant to post this in the DE thread, lol. Whoops.)
vipoid wrote: Yeah but I wanted to make use of the Ynnari Warlord traits and artefacts (for flavour purposes). Otherwise I wouldn't even bother including the characters at all.
Some of the Warlord traits and artefacts would be quite good on a tanky character like a Biketarch (or better yet, a Wraithseer). The problem is that in order to field an Ynnari detachment in the first place, you have to run one of the named characters as a tax (who all seem to have pretty poor WL traits). Surely after 100+ years of spreading the gospel of Ynnead, there should be Ynnari armies who go into battle without one of the triumvirate to lead them?
vipoid wrote: Yeah but I wanted to make use of the Ynnari Warlord traits and artefacts (for flavour purposes). Otherwise I wouldn't even bother including the characters at all.
Some of the Warlord traits and artefacts would be quite good on a tanky character like a Biketarch (or better yet, a Wraithseer). The problem is that in order to field an Ynnari detachment in the first place, you have to run one of the named characters as a tax (who all seem to have pretty poor WL traits). Surely after 100+ years of spreading the gospel of Ynnead, there should be Ynnari armies who go into battle without one of the triumvirate to lead them?
This is the most frustrating part of the army for me. Not least because i despise special characters in general and so being forced to filed them just to play the army at all really rubs me the wrong way.
And of course, it also makes it more of a pain to field. I'd love to just be able to field the Autarch, without also being forced to run another character with him.
It took this long for me to realise the Hemlock would get Revenant powers in an Ynnari detachment (was probably mentioned in here already...) But which to give...
Its a big fast base thats hard to assault, so Whispers works decently. Shield could work also with decent planning and Smite when branching out. Haze to gain more leeway on positioning. Or just another Unbind carrier, just in case.
I lost 2 venoms to lootaz and all of my storm guardians to a Da Jumping mob of Boyz. The Council put Jinx on the squad that had Da Jumped forward, then my Kabalites and Venoms wiped those 30 out. The Council at this point was in between the other two big blobs and Had Enhance on itself as well as Guide from the Farseer, which had Doomed one of the blobs. The Aturach was hanging around too. The Shuricats from the 11 bikes wiped the Doomed orks then the Autarch and Council charged the other one (not doomed) and wiped that in combat. The Reavers had moved up and shot at the Lootas (or maybe the aritllery I can't remember) and killed a bunch of Grots due to Grot Shields. They then charged into the lootas and some grots and wiped them. The lootas ahd moved up to be able to shoot the venoms, so were a bit further forwards than they would have been. Long charge though 8 or 9 inches.
That is awesome. Especially the warlock council. Interesting to see the kinds of setups eldar use to clear mass infantry. Thanks for the writeup.
I know many here have been basically saying that the acolyte strategem is crap, but honestly I don;t think this is the case. It basically gives a big f you to Culexus assassins. Also, just in case anyone wants to take a Wraithknight as Ynnari, it can make use of the A Taste for death strategem since it doesn't get the Strength from Death ability.
Ynnari hemlocks are interesting since it's rare to make too much use of the other Craftworld abilities due to proximity. Having access to Gaze Of Ynnead is nice since it's short ranged but does not need to be the closest model.
And one last thing....Chaos has the Lord Discordant to take in 3s. Is Ynnari the faction to take the Wraithseer in 3s?
bullyboy wrote: I know many here have been basically saying that the acolyte strategem is crap, but honestly I don;t think this is the case. It basically gives a big f you to Culexus assassins. Also, just in case anyone wants to take a Wraithknight as Ynnari, it can make use of the A Taste for death strategem since it doesn't get the Strength from Death ability.
Ynnari hemlocks are interesting since it's rare to make too much use of the other Craftworld abilities due to proximity. Having access to Gaze Of Ynnead is nice since it's short ranged but does not need to be the closest model.
And one last thing....Chaos has the Lord Discordant to take in 3s. Is Ynnari the faction to take the Wraithseer in 3s?
slave.entity wrote: Can we take Ynnari wraithseers without Yncarne, Visarch, or Yvraine? I'd love to run a wraithseer supreme command. How would they benefit from Ynnari?
No, to have Ynnari detachment you need 1 of the 3. Players are thinking about wraithseer, since there are few very good warlord traits and artifacts.
Jimsolo wrote: I'm correct in thinking that the Wraithseer cannot take Revenant powers though, correct?
We have a poor piece of FW wording here but I think when it gains the Ynnari keyword it must generate its powers from the Revenant discipline because the Ynnari rules are very clear and unambiguous on that. It might be worth an email to the GWFAQ address, they never really said they would FAQ things from WD 2 weeks after release but we can hope that they will and do.
Jimsolo wrote: I'm correct in thinking that the Wraithseer cannot take Revenant powers though, correct?
We have a poor piece of FW wording here but I think when it gains the Ynnari keyword it must generate its powers from the Revenant discipline because the Ynnari rules are very clear and unambiguous on that. It might be worth an email to the GWFAQ address, they never really said they would FAQ things from WD 2 weeks after release but we can hope that they will and do.
Wraithseer powers are not included in any of the disciplines and only they change to Revenant.
It will be cool if it did through. If some one is asking can you ask for the archon revive.
bullyboy wrote: I know many here have been basically saying that the acolyte strategem is crap, but honestly I don;t think this is the case. It basically gives a big f you to Culexus assassins. Also, just in case anyone wants to take a Wraithknight as Ynnari, it can make use of the A Taste for death strategem since it doesn't get the Strength from Death ability.
Ynnari hemlocks are interesting since it's rare to make too much use of the other Craftworld abilities due to proximity. Having access to Gaze Of Ynnead is nice since it's short ranged but does not need to be the closest model.
And one last thing....Chaos has the Lord Discordant to take in 3s. Is Ynnari the faction to take the Wraithseer in 3s?
Why the WK can`t get soulburst ?
yeah, never mind, it's just Super Heavy Detachment that can't get it because it can never be Ynnari (can't take one of the characters) but that doesn't stop one from being Ynnari in a Supreme Command detachment.
slave.entity wrote: Can we take Ynnari wraithseers without Yncarne, Visarch, or Yvraine? I'd love to run a wraithseer supreme command. How would they benefit from Ynnari?
Taking 2 Ynarri Wraithseers is pretty great. A supreme command of Visarch, 2x Wraithseer and a Bonesinger isn't super expensive and gives some extremely tough models. If you take one Wraithseer as your Warlord with Walker of Many Paths and the Lost Shroud it gets 1/2 damage, a reroll to hit or wound with it's D-Cannon each turn and becomes 3+/5++/5+++, which is rather tough! The other can be given the Lord of Rebirth with Exalted of Yneead and, maybe, Corag Hai's Locket. That makes it also 3+/5++/5+++, but instead of 1/2 damage, it regenerates one wound a turn. A bonesinger just makes them incredibly tanky.
If you wanted a 3rd one I'd suggest an Iyanden one though, as a third Ynarri one can't be buffed and will just die.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
slave.entity wrote: The wraithseer powers look almost useless but having 3 extra denies and potentially 3 extra smites on durable platforms is not a bad thing.
The wraithseer power that boosts chances for an assault is decent as it's cheap and Ynnari want to be in combat anyway. I could see it used on some wraithblades.
I'm thinking that a Ynnari close combat detachment and regular Craftworlds detachment is doable. The Ynnari focus on assault using the Doom power they have while the Craftworlds use regular Doom for the shooting phase.
The question is, if I lean toward wraith units, is it better than running a Iyanden Vigilus detachment with the psytronome. I think the only way it's better is making use of the wraithseer and psychic powers to give the wraith constructs invulns. If going wraithseers, I may also lean more toward the wraithcannon than the D-Cannon. It's an assault weapon which allows me to move without compromising my shooting (although super short ranged) and is significantly cheaper. The D-Cannon is a great threat but has random shots, doesn't want to move, and is extremely expensive.
Damn, I just realized something. Wraithseers pretty much invalidate my barebones wraithlords. I'm paying 95pts for a wraithlord with a sword and 2 shuricatapults. A wraithseer is 100pts, gets the spear for free (which is better than sword), has 2 more wounds, an invuln save, and is psyker. That's not even a competition.
However, I am now seriously considering 3 wraithseers and 3 wraithlords in my list. That's only 585pts for 66 wounds at T8, that all hit like trucks and can be buffed. may add a smatter of hvy weapons for taste.
bullyboy wrote: The wraithseer power that boosts chances for an assault is decent as it's cheap and Ynnari want to be in combat anyway. I could see it used on some wraithblades.
I'm thinking that a Ynnari close combat detachment and regular Craftworlds detachment is doable. The Ynnari focus on assault using the Doom power they have while the Craftworlds use regular Doom for the shooting phase.
The question is, if I lean toward wraith units, is it better than running a Iyanden Vigilus detachment with the psytronome. I think the only way it's better is making use of the wraithseer and psychic powers to give the wraith constructs invulns. If going wraithseers, I may also lean more toward the wraithcannon than the D-Cannon. It's an assault weapon which allows me to move without compromising my shooting (although super short ranged) and is significantly cheaper. The D-Cannon is a great threat but has random shots, doesn't want to move, and is extremely expensive.
Damn, I just realized something. Wraithseers pretty much invalidate my barebones wraithlords. I'm paying 95pts for a wraithlord with a sword and 2 shuricatapults. A wraithseer is 100pts, gets the spear for free (which is better than sword), has 2 more wounds, an invuln save, and is psyker. That's not even a competition.
However, I am now seriously considering 3 wraithseers and 3 wraithlords in my list. That's only 585pts for 66 wounds at T8, that all hit like trucks and can be buffed. may add a smatter of hvy weapons for taste.
It's alot chepaer in CP than the Iyanden version. I also like the D-Cannon when you take 3 as 3d3 shots at that profile is really nice (compare to the output of a castellans anti tank guns). This is particularly true on a Walker of the Many Paths seer, which can reroll everything (even the 3 when moving).
I can’t seem to come up with anything.. there are some neat warlord traits and relics.. but when I go to build a 2000 pt army list when I’m done I just would rather use those points elsewhere
So how are the new Ynari? I picked up the whute dwarf anf looked at it. So basicly you are a mellee focused army? And you loose a lot of the rules that made eldars bonkers? Do they keep anything, like power from pain? Do the eldar or harlequeens any rules they keep?
You need to kill a unit to get the special rules. So you ar looking for some ranged shooting power, and then a unit that can fight in close combat? The dark eldars are mostly a shooting army, and not a melee army. Eldars lack a delivery system. Harlequeens can pull of a charge.
Niiai wrote: So how are the new Ynari? I picked up the whute dwarf anf looked at it. So basicly you are a mellee focused army? And you loose a lot of the rules that made eldars bonkers? Do they keep anything, like power from pain? Do the eldar or harlequeens any rules they keep?
You need to kill a unit to get the special rules. So you ar looking for some ranged shooting power, and then a unit that can fight in close combat? The dark eldars are mostly a shooting army, and not a melee army. Eldars lack a delivery system. Harlequeens can pull of a charge.
What are the prime melee unita people will use?
CWE don`t like them.
Harlequins are so so.
DE can use them.
Probably wytch cult units will be the best. Ynnari look fair and balanced.
Niiai wrote: So how are the new Ynari? I picked up the whute dwarf anf looked at it. So basicly you are a mellee focused army? And you loose a lot of the rules that made eldars bonkers? Do they keep anything, like power from pain? Do the eldar or harlequeens any rules they keep?
You need to kill a unit to get the special rules. So you ar looking for some ranged shooting power, and then a unit that can fight in close combat? The dark eldars are mostly a shooting army, and not a melee army. Eldars lack a delivery system. Harlequeens can pull of a charge.
What are the prime melee unita people will use?
Honestly? They look a bit crap.
I don't mind them being underpowered but I detest being forced to use special characters just to have them at all.
People keep talking about Wych Cults but PfP makes the bonus entirely redundant from turn 3 onwards so I really don't see the appeal. Especially since they also remove your ability to take worthwhile weapons on Succubi.
Harlequins? Maybe, though I imagine being banned from taking the Solitaire is something of a pain.
Eldar? They probably have the most units that get some benefit from Ynnari but from a practical standpoint it means giving up some of the best psychic powers in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of their artefacts and warlord traits, so I'd like to use them for that reason alone. I just wish they weren't such an absolute pain to use. The special character tax seems entirely unnecessary - especially on a faction that's already been nerfed into the ground.
3 units charging, 2 making it on average with a CP reroll.
Does eldar or ynnari have some way to give some sort of +1 to charge or something? Because normally odd of charge is 28% and if you can reroll whole roll it's about 50-50. With CP reroll it's less than 50-50.
Thus with 3 units trying charge without one CP roll you have 62% chance of getting one and average amount of units charging less than 1. With CP rolling 1 dice from one unit you could count on 1 but 2 seems too optimistic. Unless eldar or ynnari have further buffs.
3 units charging, 2 making it on average with a CP reroll.
Does eldar or ynnari have some way to give some sort of +1 to charge or something? Because normally odd of charge is 28% and if you can reroll whole roll it's about 50-50. With CP reroll it's less than 50-50.
Thus with 3 units trying charge without one CP roll you have 62% chance of getting one and average amount of units charging less than 1. With CP rolling 1 dice from one unit you could count on 1 but 2 seems too optimistic. Unless eldar or ynnari have further buffs.
A wraith unit can be allowed to roll an additional D6, discarding the lowest from a wraithseer buff. Drukhari reroll charges from turn 2 onwards, and banshees add 3" to their charge if they advance, but that's about it.
vipoid wrote: Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour of their artefacts and warlord traits, so I'd like to use them for that reason alone. I just wish they weren't such an absolute pain to use. The special character tax seems entirely unnecessary - especially on a faction that's already been nerfed into the ground.
While I understand not liking the constraint, It would be more tolerable if they were at least priced to be an auto-take.
I think Yvraine could be only about 120 but at a stretch its fine. The Visarch however should be no more than 85-90.
The real shame though is the big guy. When a Tzeentch Daemon Prince is about 180 points, I don't see on what planet the Yncarne is possibly worth 337.
Okay AP-4/D6 damage, rerolling to wound is quite a bit better than AP-2, 2 Damage. The jumping around when stuff dies may be useful to grab objectives - but I feel the "the unit cannot charge if it does this" is a crippling limitation.
But in Daemon Princes I can't see how the Yncarne is worth more than maybe 240 points. And frankly the more I think about it, the lower I go.
If he had some mad synergy it might make sense - but really thats the problem with the whole list. There is very little synergy compared to a modern codex (see say GSC).
I am half-tempted to say its a placeholder for a full codex in say 2020 when GW actually release some new Ynnari Eldar units. I fear this might just be wishful thinking though. (Apart from the Spirit Seer have there been any Eldar releases in 8th edition?)
The only synergy i see ynnari helping in / buffs that actually could come up is with eldar themselves and those units are few/ far between. Besides wraith consturcts getting an invunerable/ feel no pain or some tanks getting a boost for casting up i just dont see it.
I cant think of a single harliquen unit that gets a valid boost / could see new ways to use from ynnari. There are some dark eldar options but really, nothing that would make the investment in cost worth it.....
I'm finding a DE Ynarri battalion to be useful. Visarch + Succubus is similar in first to 2 archons and I can take cheap kabs as troops and reavers in FA. Its a battalion that was formerly just cp.
Drager wrote: I'm finding a DE Ynarri battalion to be useful. Visarch + Succubus is similar in first to 2 archons and I can take cheap kabs as troops and reavers in FA. Its a battalion that was formerly just cp.
That might be one small use....Succubus, character, 2x5 kabalites, 1x20 wyches in webway, 9-12 reaver bikes.
Just for fun, I may try and see if I can create the triple detachment of harlie/CW/drukhari. Going to be really tough.
That begs the question, is that Outrider even legal? Can you take a Ynnari character as your only HQ or do I need a Harlequin character too? Anyway, the above has 15pts to spare and I'm not a fan of it at all. I just don't know how you get all 3 in there with a doable list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK, this is my attempt at a mixed army with a small Ynnari element
Alaitoc Battalion
farseer skyrunner 132
warlock skyrunner 70
10 Guardians, shuricannon 95
5 Dire Avengers 58
5 Dire Avengers 58
2 Fire Prisms, 1 CTM 319
Alaitoc Airwing
CHE, starcannons 161
2 Hemlocks 420
Ynnari Supreme Command
Yvraine 132
Wraithseer, wraithcannon, warlord - walker of many paths, Lost Shroud 115
Wraithseer, wraithcannon - add warlord trait - Lord of Rebirth 115
5 Wraithblades 175
Wave Serpent, twin cannon, twin cats, spirit stone 149
slave.entity wrote: The wraithseer powers look almost useless but having 3 extra denies and potentially 3 extra smites on durable platforms is not a bad thing.
I think the Wraithseer Supreme Command is going to work great for Ynnari. I'm definitely going to be giving it a try along with my shooty eldar. I think I'm going to opt for the wraithcannons over D-cannons simply as I will want them moving upfield quickly.
Core will be either 2 or 3 wraithseers. One will have Lost Shroud and the other will have Lord of Rebirth. Yvraine will accompany 5 wraithblades in a serpent. I also want to get the Walker of Many Paths warlord trait but need to figure out who to put it on as I could see a wraithseer being targeted down to get warlord. An Autarch might be better, either with wings or skyrunner to hide better.
I looked at running a similar setup as Iyanden with one seer getting the psytronome, and using Vigilus detachment, but lacking that 5+++ is just a shame, even with the potential double attacks of the psytronome.
So I think right now running the Ynnari as the central melee component, a few long range/mobile shooty elements (usually prisms and hemlocks for me) and then the rest of the force to focus on horde killing so lots of shuricans and shadow weavers.
Tyel wrote: The real shame though is the big guy. When a Tzeentch Daemon Prince is about 180 points, I don't see on what planet the Yncarne is possibly worth 337.
Okay AP-4/D6 damage, rerolling to wound is quite a bit better than AP-2, 2 Damage. The jumping around when stuff dies may be useful to grab objectives - but I feel the "the unit cannot charge if it does this" is a crippling limitation.
It does seem rather overpriced. What I would say is that if you can trigger the Yncarne's "Summoned by Death" ability in your opponent's turn (e.g. by killing something in melee), then the Yncarne can pop up 1" away from the enemy and quite happily charge in you turn.
Killing something in your opponent's melee phase may be easier said than done but that is where our ability to strike 1st comes in handy. Take a big unit of Wyches to keep the enemy pinned in melee and maybe you can pull it off. Not necessarily a strategy you can build around but potentially nasty when it works.
Tyel wrote: The real shame though is the big guy. When a Tzeentch Daemon Prince is about 180 points, I don't see on what planet the Yncarne is possibly worth 337.
Okay AP-4/D6 damage, rerolling to wound is quite a bit better than AP-2, 2 Damage. The jumping around when stuff dies may be useful to grab objectives - but I feel the "the unit cannot charge if it does this" is a crippling limitation.
It does seem rather overpriced. What I would say is that if you can trigger the Yncarne's "Summoned by Death" ability in your opponent's turn (e.g. by killing something in melee), then the Yncarne can pop up 1" away from the enemy and quite happily charge in you turn.
Killing something in your opponent's melee phase may be easier said than done but that is where our ability to strike 1st comes in handy. Take a big unit of Wyches to keep the enemy pinned in melee and maybe you can pull it off. Not necessarily a strategy you can build around but potentially nasty when it works.
Actually, I have just noticed that "Summoned by Death" works when any unit is destroyed. Just say your opponent has destroyed a small unit you had guarding an Objective. The Yncarne can pop up like a daemonic jack-in-the-box and kill them in the next turn. It is like have a Daemon Prince capable of counter-charging just about anywhere on the table that your opponent kills a unit. Anything dies and the Yncarne pops up to make a revenge attack.
Karhedron wrote: Actually, I have just noticed that "Summoned by Death" works when any unit is destroyed. Just say your opponent has destroyed a small unit you had guarding an Objective. The Yncarne can pop up like a daemonic jack-in-the-box and kill them in the next turn. It is like have a Daemon Prince capable of counter-charging just about anywhere on the table that your opponent kills a unit. Anything dies and the Yncarne pops up to make a revenge attack.
The tradeoff is the Yncarne just being there to counter-charge anyway.
Against elite assault armies (not that many of them tbh, I guess a theoretical wraith-ynnari count) its a potentially interesting counter. Against say Orks or GSC the fact you are likely to counter charge and kill 6~ in combat doesn't really mean very much and I don't know where he was to not charge in to begin with.
Versus shooting I think you are looking at "aha, you thought I had lost this objective? No, Yncarne to the rescue". But then when a unit which costs costs 337 points and only really has a sword plus smite/smite alternatives is on the other side of the table, hes not pulling his weight.
I don't believe giving Eldar units a 6+++ is crazy good, otherwise everyone would run Ulthwe.
If you shoot an enemy unit and then drop the Yncarne, your opponent gets a full turn to respond. its not that tough, certainly not when you are paying almost a Gallant or melee wraithknight in points.
Its not a worthless ability - but I don't think its an especially valuable ability.
While I understand not liking the constraint, It would be more tolerable if they were at least priced to be an auto-take.
I hate using special characters on principle. However, my preference would be to have at least one be cheap (regardless of whether it's actually good).
I think Yvraine could be only about 120 but at a stretch its fine. The Visarch however should be no more than 85-90.
Agreed on Yvraine.
The issue with the Visarch is that it can't be much cheaper without just being a superior Archon. It's already outright superior to Drazhar in spite of having the same cost.
The real problem is that Archons (on which the Visarch is obviously based) are vastly overcosted for what they actually do. But rather than address that, GW just makes the Archon special character equally overpriced.
The real shame though is the big guy. When a Tzeentch Daemon Prince is about 180 points, I don't see on what planet the Yncarne is possibly worth 337.
Okay AP-4/D6 damage, rerolling to wound is quite a bit better than AP-2, 2 Damage. The jumping around when stuff dies may be useful to grab objectives - but I feel the "the unit cannot charge if it does this" is a crippling limitation.
But in Daemon Princes I can't see how the Yncarne is worth more than maybe 240 points. And frankly the more I think about it, the lower I go.
If he had some mad synergy it might make sense - but really thats the problem with the whole list. There is very little synergy compared to a modern codex (see say GSC).
Yeah, 337 points for the Yncarne does seem excessive. Regarding the Daemon Prince comparison, I think one major difference is that the Yncarne's teleportation is basically his only mobility option. 8" isn't particularly impressive compared to a winged Daemon Prince.
I could maybe see it costing that much if its support abilities were stronger but they're actually pretty feeble. A 6+++ isn't impressive at the best of times, and if you're using DE then they already have one anyway.
I am half-tempted to say its a placeholder for a full codex in say 2020 when GW actually release some new Ynnari Eldar units. I fear this might just be wishful thinking though. (Apart from the Spirit Seer have there been any Eldar releases in 8th edition?)
I'm not holding out hope but it would certainly be nice to see some Eldar releases. Dark Eldar is threadbare, having had about half the codex stripped out, and Corsairs have basically been removed entirely. But obviously making Slightly Bigger Marines takes precedence.
Karhedron wrote: Actually, I have just noticed that "Summoned by Death" works when any unit is destroyed. Just say your opponent has destroyed a small unit you had guarding an Objective. The Yncarne can pop up like a daemonic jack-in-the-box and kill them in the next turn. It is like have a Daemon Prince capable of counter-charging just about anywhere on the table that your opponent kills a unit. Anything dies and the Yncarne pops up to make a revenge attack.
The tradeoff is the Yncarne just being there to counter-charge anyway.
Against elite assault armies (not that many of them tbh, I guess a theoretical wraith-ynnari count) its a potentially interesting counter. Against say Orks or GSC the fact you are likely to counter charge and kill 6~ in combat doesn't really mean very much and I don't know where he was to not charge in to begin with.
Versus shooting I think you are looking at "aha, you thought I had lost this objective? No, Yncarne to the rescue". But then when a unit which costs costs 337 points and only really has a sword plus smite/smite alternatives is on the other side of the table, hes not pulling his weight.
I don't believe giving Eldar units a 6+++ is crazy good, otherwise everyone would run Ulthwe.
If you shoot an enemy unit and then drop the Yncarne, your opponent gets a full turn to respond. its not that tough, certainly not when you are paying almost a Gallant or melee wraithknight in points.
Its not a worthless ability - but I don't think its an especially valuable ability.
She is to expensive, but fun. Still remember how she solo killed daemon prince that charged her and she can smash aircraft because she can fly.
There are little things that will gladly run to melee with you if you have Yncarne in your army.
Visarch is aweful, its a named character meaning no relic, no WL trait of your choice, it needs to be 100pts max. Yncarne is so hard to balance, but b.c double actions are gone, it really needs to be cheaper now, 300pts. Yvarine should be 10-15pts cheaper, its just a tax now for Ynnari, it is still good, but Farseer skyrunner being the same cost for the same abilities (other than Ynnari unlock) while on a bike (+Move + Tough) and can deny +1.
I would say make them all 10% cheaper, would be about perfect.
If your army has a lot of melee units starting in melee at the beginning of the opponents turn, the opponent can not shoot any of your units or come close combat you attack first. Is this correct.
You want several small units that can trigger your attack first in combat. Also, as long as you keep trigering it your small melee units have no real problem as they do not have to go every other turn between players.
You want good ranged weapons to trigger the abillaty.
Now some questions:
Can you combine Kabal and Wytches in a detachment without loosing the bonuses?
You can have the Yncarne caharcters in transports that are open topped that are good to charge out of? Including DE and Harlequin once.
You can fallback, thats in the movement phase, then they can shoot you. Fight first is only in the combat phase.
So you have to surround units without Fly or able to move over other units, and some units still can shoot in combat or if they have pistols they can shoot as well.
You can combine Kabal and Wych in Ynnari you lose nothing, you only gain more, an Archona aura is now <Drukhari Reborn> along with wyches, meaning your Archon re-roll aura works for Wyches.
They want you to mix imo, and they want you to take Melee Archons (notice some of the relics dont work for Succubus but does so for Archon, and the Archon re-roll works for Succubus).
MSU Wych is very strong way for DE to play Ynnari, but IMOCWE/Quins are much better from an Army stand point, with that said a few Wych units could be very strong.
B.c you now get another DS stratagem it is possible to DS 5 units for 5CP (8 for 9CP) or 6 for 6 and 9 for 9 (I looked really fast might be 1CP off) if you take the stupid harlequin Fortification (Webway Gate).
Im looking at taking 2 Ynnari Battalions and 1 DE Spearhead, b.c i like Yncarne. For my ITC list now it is 1 DE Bat, 1 CWE Ynnari Bat, 1 Quins Vanguard. But it is slowly changing every day and might be different soon.
@Amishprn86 Do you have any example Ynnari Wych Cult lists?
Also, what do you guys think of Ynnari Striking Scorpions? Assuming a unit has died, they'll be hitting on 2s and the Exarch (with a Scorpion Claw) will be generating extra attacks on a 5+.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't an FAQ affirm that you can always heroically intervene even if no one was charged and even on your turn? If that's the case, the Yncarne teleporting may have some opportunities to get a 3" intervene if a unit is close to where one was recently destroyed, especially if it's your own of course. I need to check on this though.
I can even if no one charged, but not in your turn. Its very useful if playing aggressively as units dying within a few inches of the enemy becomes more common.
Drager wrote: Not lost yet,and I'm finding the reavers are invaluable, but I need some harder tests.
Really? How are you running your Reavers?
10 Reavers with 3 Grav Talons mostly, I've run them as 12 with 4 Grav Talons and an agoniser in my latest game, but I'm mainly playing 1750 at the moment in practice for a tournament, so that's a bit too pricy. I'm also playing with a Warlock Council and a bunch of venoms. Depending on the opponent the components do differnt things, but against Guard with a big unit (Castellan, Crusader, Cawl Bots, whatever) they charge forward on turn one and hit the guard screen, tying up at least one unit with a tri-point, which is easy with Fly nicely reinstated and the tendency of guard players to overlap their squads. Meanwhile the Venoms shoot a hole in the screen for the Council to charge through (if they wrapped close to the big unit) or the council flies over the screen (if they spaced out). This usually lets the Autarch and Council charge whatever the prime threat is whilst the Reavers tie up and murderblend gaurdsmen. Against Orks they just charge a squad and eliminate it then tank the return fire with Shield of Ynnead as best they can (although as I can clear >100 orks a turn, that's not usually much).
Charging into multiple units at once is where reavers really excel if you can get your Grav Talons within 1" of 2+ units at the end of the charge you really start to dish out the MW.
One version of the list is below:
Ynarri Battalion
Yvraine (Unbind Souls, Ancestor's Grace)
Warlock (Shield of Yneead)
3x 8 Storm Guardians
Ynarri Battalion Succubus, Walker of the Many Paths, Corag Hai Locket, Hypex
Visarch
Drager wrote: Not lost yet,and I'm finding the reavers are invaluable, but I need some harder tests.
Really? How are you running your Reavers?
10 Reavers with 3 Grav Talons mostly, I've run them as 12 with 4 Grav Talons and an agoniser in my latest game, but I'm mainly playing 1750 at the moment in practice for a tournament, so that's a bit too pricy. I'm also playing with a Warlock Council and a bunch of venoms. Depending on the opponent the components do differnt things, but against Guard with a big unit (Castellan, Crusader, Cawl Bots, whatever) they charge forward on turn one and hit the guard screen, tying up at least one unit with a tri-point, which is easy with Fly nicely reinstated and the tendency of guard players to overlap their squads. Meanwhile the Venoms shoot a hole in the screen for the Council to charge through (if they wrapped close to the big unit) or the council flies over the screen (if they spaced out). This usually lets the Autarch and Council charge whatever the prime threat is whilst the Reavers tie up and murderblend gaurdsmen. Against Orks they just charge a squad and eliminate it then tank the return fire with Shield of Ynnead as best they can (although as I can clear >100 orks a turn, that's not usually much).
Charging into multiple units at once is where reavers really excel if you can get your Grav Talons within 1" of 2+ units at the end of the charge you really start to dish out the MW.
One version of the list is below:
Ynarri Battalion
Yvraine (Unbind Souls, Ancestor's Grace)
Warlock (Shield of Yneead)
3x 8 Storm Guardians
Ynarri Battalion Succubus, Walker of the Many Paths, Corag Hai Locket, Hypex
Visarch
The key thing is that I'm pretty sure that that list is stronger if you strip out the Ynnari parts, even if it potentially makes the Reavers less effective. Compare;
Spoiler:
Red Grief Battalion Succubus w/ Splinter Pistol and Blood Glaive
Succubus w/ Splinter Pistol and Archite Glaive
5 Wyches
5 Wyches
5 Wyches
12 Reavers w/4 Grav Talons
Saim-Hann Supreme Command Autarch Skyrunner w/ Banshee Mask, Avenger Catapult and Power Sword
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
8 Warlock Skyrunner Council
That's 2000 points exactly and seems more effective on paper overall, with the Razorwing included just because taking out the Ynnari characters and swapping Storm Guardians for Wyches frees up so many points. I'll say this about the Ynnari and FAQ, though, they're making me re-evaluate how useful Wych Cults are. I think I might be throwing in Red Grief Outrider to my DE lists soon.
Drager wrote: Not lost yet,and I'm finding the reavers are invaluable, but I need some harder tests.
Really? How are you running your Reavers?
10 Reavers with 3 Grav Talons mostly, I've run them as 12 with 4 Grav Talons and an agoniser in my latest game, but I'm mainly playing 1750 at the moment in practice for a tournament, so that's a bit too pricy. I'm also playing with a Warlock Council and a bunch of venoms. Depending on the opponent the components do differnt things, but against Guard with a big unit (Castellan, Crusader, Cawl Bots, whatever) they charge forward on turn one and hit the guard screen, tying up at least one unit with a tri-point, which is easy with Fly nicely reinstated and the tendency of guard players to overlap their squads. Meanwhile the Venoms shoot a hole in the screen for the Council to charge through (if they wrapped close to the big unit) or the council flies over the screen (if they spaced out). This usually lets the Autarch and Council charge whatever the prime threat is whilst the Reavers tie up and murderblend gaurdsmen. Against Orks they just charge a squad and eliminate it then tank the return fire with Shield of Ynnead as best they can (although as I can clear >100 orks a turn, that's not usually much).
Charging into multiple units at once is where reavers really excel if you can get your Grav Talons within 1" of 2+ units at the end of the charge you really start to dish out the MW.
One version of the list is below:
Ynarri Battalion
Yvraine (Unbind Souls, Ancestor's Grace)
Warlock (Shield of Yneead)
3x 8 Storm Guardians
Ynarri Battalion Succubus, Walker of the Many Paths, Corag Hai Locket, Hypex
Visarch
If the warlocks are on bikes, why are you not using the Vigilias detachment ?
I am.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Burnage wrote: The key thing is that I'm pretty sure that that list is stronger if you strip out the Ynnari parts, even if it potentially makes the Reavers less effective. Compare;
Spoiler:
Red Grief Battalion Succubus w/ Splinter Pistol and Blood Glaive
Succubus w/ Splinter Pistol and Archite Glaive
5 Wyches
5 Wyches
5 Wyches
12 Reavers w/4 Grav Talons
Saim-Hann Supreme Command Autarch Skyrunner w/ Banshee Mask, Avenger Catapult and Power Sword
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
8 Warlock Skyrunner Council
That's 2000 points exactly and seems more effective on paper overall, with the Razorwing included just because taking out the Ynnari characters and swapping Storm Guardians for Wyches frees up so many points. I'll say this about the Ynnari and FAQ, though, they're making me re-evaluate how useful Wych Cults are. I think I might be throwing in Red Grief Outrider to my DE lists soon.
I haven't found a single razorwing to be worth it, to be honest. It doesn't do as much as the extra power in the Reavers does for my list. The Archons are also weaker than the Visarch and can't cross buff, plus with Flayed Skull they do absolutely nothing, whereas Yvraine supplies Reroll to Wound (and reroll ones T1 before the buff characters catch up) and a Deny and the Warlock supplies an invuln plus a deny. Another version I Was running had the Venoms and some Kabs in a Flayed Skull detachment, with only the one Ynarri character, switched for the Craftworlds battalion, but it didn't quite offer what I wanted.
Against Orks, for example, the Razorwing gives an extra 8 kills, but the Reavers lose a lot more. 12 Red Grief Reavers with Grav Talons kill only 14 Orks on turn 1, whereas the Ynarri Reavers kill 28 without shooting. If they both shoot, they both add the same amount of damage (unless an Ynarri Archon is around or they are buffed with Ancestor's Grace and then Ynarri again do more damage). The extra few kills from a Razorwing just don't strike me as worth halving the output of damage and dramatically reducing the survivability of the Reavers to return fire, and that's how I've found it play out in games too. Now the Red Grief Reavers can Fly By so if the positioning is right they can get ~4 extra wounds, but that requries the advance and if the enemy is close enough for that the Ynarri Reavers may not need to advance and can therefore shoot.
vipoid wrote: @Amishprn86 Do you have any example Ynnari Wych Cult lists?
Also, what do you guys think of Ynnari Striking Scorpions? Assuming a unit has died, they'll be hitting on 2s and the Exarch (with a Scorpion Claw) will be generating extra attacks on a 5+.
I was out and dint see till now.
1st, Striking Scorpions will be better IMO, they are pretty cheap for what they are, a nice scalpel unit of them could be worth it, being 55pts for 5 its not bad at all.
As for Wyches, I feel you ether do MSU spam or 2 large units
A MSU unit are would be mostly to accompany the CWE or Quins, heck even Coven harder hitting units, you are using Ynnari more of a way to fight 1st and tie up, fighting first lets you pile in/consolidate and use movement shenanigans, something that can be very strong.
This gives you some dedicated shooting via Talos, Ravagers, there are left over points you can easily add 2 more talos for more. But the idea is to have cheap, small, fast wyches to support the Coven, i have done this before new Ynnari and it works great, might have to modify for ITC tho
As for Large units of Wyches? I would do more of a CWE battalion with a Wych Ynnari list, you could also do a CWE Ynnari as well, with Banshees, Autarch, Yvarine, Wraiths with Dcannon and 2 Wave serpents and troops to fill/
The Yncarne giving them ignore Moral, 40 bodies to character block, and a small 5 man back up/CP, DSing them you are hoping to get 1 into combat, with full re-rolls charges aor the option to re-roll 1 dice via CP, it shouldnt be to hard to get 1 in, but you will fail time to time, the Archon is there for re-roll hits of 1, its still 40 Pistol shots and re-roll hits in melee, so he is doubling up on the aura over the succubus, worst chase scenario you dont make either charge, but you still are able to manage if you had Wraiths, Guardians, Banshees, etc.. all coming in at the same time, you are priority overloading them.
Guys am I right in thinking if you run a Ynnari Battlion with units using the SfD rule, I could have in my troop choice 1 x unit of Harlequins, 1 x unit of Wyches and 1 x unit of Kabalite warriors.
I am thinking in terms of using Ynnari in a mono codex tournament
Elfric wrote: Guys am I right in thinking if you run a Ynnari Battlion with units using the SfD rule, I could have in my troop choice 1 x unit of Harlequins, 1 x unit of Wyches and 1 x unit of Kabalite warriors.
I am thinking in terms of using Ynnari in a mono codex tournament
You still have to have Quins, DE and CWE in different detachments. They still have different keywords, all of CWE are now <Reborn Asuryani> all DE are now <Reborn Drukhari> all Harlequins are now <Reborn Harlequins>
Elfric wrote: Guys am I right in thinking if you run a Ynnari Battlion with units using the SfD rule, I could have in my troop choice 1 x unit of Harlequins, 1 x unit of Wyches and 1 x unit of Kabalite warriors.
I am thinking in terms of using Ynnari in a mono codex tournament
You still have to have Quins, DE and CWE in different detachments. They still have different keywords, all of CWE are now <Reborn Asuryani> all DE are now <Reborn Drukhari> all Harlequins are now <Reborn Harlequins>
Ahh I see now, so I would need to take a detachment of Ynarri Harlequins, a detachment of Ynarri Drukhari and so on.
Elfric wrote: Guys am I right in thinking if you run a Ynnari Battlion with units using the SfD rule, I could have in my troop choice 1 x unit of Harlequins, 1 x unit of Wyches and 1 x unit of Kabalite warriors.
I am thinking in terms of using Ynnari in a mono codex tournament
You still have to have Quins, DE and CWE in different detachments. They still have different keywords, all of CWE are now <Reborn Asuryani> all DE are now <Reborn Drukhari> all Harlequins are now <Reborn Harlequins>
Ahh I see now, so I would need to take a detachment of Ynarri Harlequins, a detachment of Ynarri Drukhari and so on.
Yeah, and the problem with that is, you are forced to take all Ynnari Characters, thats 590pts of characters. 2 of them i think are fine, but all 3? Yeah idk about that.
Elfric wrote: Guys am I right in thinking if you run a Ynnari Battlion with units using the SfD rule, I could have in my troop choice 1 x unit of Harlequins, 1 x unit of Wyches and 1 x unit of Kabalite warriors.
I am thinking in terms of using Ynnari in a mono codex tournament
You still have to have Quins, DE and CWE in different detachments. They still have different keywords, all of CWE are now <Reborn Asuryani> all DE are now <Reborn Drukhari> all Harlequins are now <Reborn Harlequins>
Ahh I see now, so I would need to take a detachment of Ynarri Harlequins, a detachment of Ynarri Drukhari and so on.
Yeah, and the problem with that is, you are forced to take all Ynnari Characters, thats 590pts of characters. 2 of them i think are fine, but all 3? Yeah idk about that.
Yes I have just been finding that the Ynarri characters are expensive. I've been playing around with a list for a mono faction:
Ynarri Drukhari Battalion:
Archon
Visarch
1 x 5 Kabalites with a blaster
1 x 5 Kabalites with a blaster
1 x 10 Wyches with 2 hydra gauntlets + razor flails
1 x 10 Reaver Jet bikes with triple blasters and 3 Grav Talon
1 x Void Bomber
2 x Raiders with Dark Lance
Ynarri Harlequin Vanguard:
Yvraine
1 x 12 Harlequins with Caresses
3 x Death Jesters
1 x 6 Skyweavers, Zephyrglaives and Haywire
That comes to 1750. Should it not be enough to have just 1 Ynarri character, cause i'd ditch the Visarch for 2 x Succubus
I've tried to make a reasonable beta strike ynarri list, the plan would be for yvraine to provide a 5++ to the wraithlords and for the visarch to cover for yvraine. All the infantry go into advancing serpents so the only targets I'd be presenting are -1 to hit serpents and T8 wraiths with 5++ (hopefully on the lord's).
slave.entity wrote: Fun list. Though I imagine if it runs into an opposing superheavy all they have to do is delete the one wraithcannon and it's basically over.
The Wraithseer and Wraith lords can fight a superheavy in CC but you need to get there.
I gave all the wraiths assault weapons so they have a chance of making turn two charges, not guaranteed by any means but with five of them hopefully something is going to survive to make it in
I'd not expect it to be super competitive but should be a reasonable list to try out although I don't have the visarch at the moment, I might have to proxy him to give it a spin
As much as I want ynnari to work.. when I’m done making any list I think of 50 ways it would be better with strats, relics, powers and traits from its original book. I then look at the triumvirate and a single tear rolls down lol
Pain4Pleasure wrote: As much as I want ynnari to work.. when I’m done making any list I think of 50 ways it would be better with strats, relics, powers and traits from its original book. I then look at the triumvirate and a single tear rolls down lol
To be fair, that really is how it should be. Like it or not, Ynnari aren't supposed to be the defacto-best option. That was why they were OP before.
YNNARI, like Codex traits, are supposed to just add flavor to your games, not be a means to "make a more competitive list". Sure traits like Alaitoc exist as outliers to this philosophy, but I can only see these Ynnari changes as a course correction to get the game back to how it should be.
I'm just glad that you can add the Ynnari Characters to detachments WITHOUT making them Ynnari, that way you can have whatever "flavor" you want and still get to play those models if you like them.
But the 1 missed opportunity I can see is the lack of "act twice" Stratagems. It's a bit of an over-correction to go from "THE" act twice faction to not have a single act twice option at all. Even Space Marines can fight twice. Ynnari at minimum should have had 3 Strats to Move twice, Shoot twice and Fight Twice. As Stratagems, they would have been just as limited as before, but now costs CP rather than be "free" like before
Galef wrote: To be fair, that really is how it should be. Like it or not, Ynnari aren't supposed to be the defacto-best option. That was why they were OP before.
YNNARI, like Codex traits, are supposed to just add flavor to your games, not be a means to "make a more competitive list". Sure traits like Alaitoc exist as outliers to this philosophy, but I can only see these Ynnari changes as a course correction to get the game back to how it should be.
I disagree on this.
I don't think there is anything wrong with GW going "we imagine the Ynnari as an assault-focused infantry+bikers drawn from across the Eldar family. We are therefore going to devise rules with that in mind to encourage people to use those units."
"We also recognise that most of these units are not popular or widely played at the moment, especially in a competitive setting, which would imply those rules need to be strong if this is going to work."
"As a result - if someone wants to run say Banshees, or Scorpions, or Incubi, the most efficient way to do it will be Ynnari".
Now there is a problem if "Ynnari Banshees are the most broken thing in the game" - but having alternative buffs gives you design space. "These units are good as Ynnari", "These units are good as Alaitoc", "this specific build works with this Harlequin Masque" etc.
I mean nothing stopped you taking a big Eldar assault infantry army with say Saim Hann and the Avatar of Khaine supported by Strife or cursed blade Wyches. But it wasn't very good, which is why most people probably never saw it.
The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
Xenomancers wrote: The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
New Ynnari don't lose battle focus, power from pain and the Harlequin assault and charge rule (name eludes me)
Also, I think people are really missing the utility of multiple doom-like powers a turn. They turn reavers from.. meh to really damaging and don't stop you taking doom on a craftworld detachment. Pure Ynarri don't seem very good, but an Ynarri battalion with Kabalites, Succubus, Yvraine and Reavers certainly does.
Xenomancers wrote: The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
New Ynnari don't lose battle focus, power from pain and the Harlequin assault and charge rule (name eludes me)
Edit: Rising Crescendo
Which is one of the changes I like from a thematic standpoint. It didn't make sense that CWE would lose Battle Focus, or Harlequins would lose Rising Crescendo. It makes perfect sense for them to lose their selectable Trait, however. It's just sad that they replace that trait with something so incredibly sub-par and with sub-par Stratagems to boot.
Drager wrote: Also, I think people are really missing the utility of multiple doom-like powers a turn. They turn reavers from.. meh to really damaging and don't stop you taking doom on a craftworld detachment. Pure Ynarri don't seem very good, but an Ynarri battalion with Kabalites, Succubus, Yvraine and Reavers certainly does.
Which is nice, but seem counter to the fluff in which they don't seem to mix very well. You're either Ynnari or not
Another thing that has been irking my lately is the "no named characters other than the 3 Ynnari ones". I get that it is to prevent weird situations in which you cannot trade <Craftworld/Asuryani> for REBORN ASURYANI because the Character already has Ulthwe or Iyanden, but there should be other excpetions. Like Eldrad, Lilith Hexparex or Yriel. I mean Yriel has a freaking Crone Sword for cryin' out load
Drager wrote: Also, I think people are really missing the utility of multiple doom-like powers a turn. They turn reavers from.. meh to really damaging and don't stop you taking doom on a craftworld detachment. Pure Ynarri don't seem very good, but an Ynarri battalion with Kabalites, Succubus, Yvraine and Reavers certainly does.
Which is nice, but seem counter to the fluff in which they don't seem to mix very well. You're either Ynnari or not
Another thing that has been irking my lately is the "no named characters other than the 3 Ynnari ones". I get that it is to prevent weird situations in which you cannot trade <Craftworld/Asuryani> for REBORN ASURYANI because the Character already has Ulthwe or Iyanden, but there should be other excpetions. Like Eldrad, Lilith Hexparex or Yriel. I mean Yriel has a freaking Crone Sword fro cryin out load
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If they would let us take one Special Character to unlock all 3 detachments, then I can see triple Ynarri builds being viable, as is the 600 point buy-in is too steep at less than 3000 points. They get around the inability to trade problem for Guard and brood brothers (not on named characters, but for Militarum Tempestus), so they know how to do that. I agree that it seems daft that you can't take them, due to the fluff. Also if they were able to unlock Ynarri detachments that would make the buy in much more acceptable. Eldrad is solid, Litlith and Yriel are meh, but at least cheap (compare to the Yncarne).
Xenomancers wrote: The key here is the avatar assault list is still probably better than the ynnari one. Because it still has access to 2 better psychic trees. Plus their army traits are pretty useful too.
Same with quinns.
The issue here is the ynnari trait is not good enough to compete with the loss of battle focus or even a 6+++. Increased CC damage is not that valuable. Mobility and resilience are much more important for assault units.
New Ynnari don't lose battle focus, power from pain and the Harlequin assault and charge rule (name eludes me)
Edit: Rising Crescendo
Wow I completely missed that.
Well then we are all complaining about nothing then right? This is just basically an okay army trait with a new set of stratagems. They aren't great but +1 attack strat is good.
"An okay army trait with stratagems that aren't great" which also costs 600 points to unlock for your entire army seems like a pretty good reason for complaint overall.
Yeah, even I'll admit that requiring a Ynnari Character PER detachment is a bit much. I'm all for requiring at least 1 of the 3 in the ARMY to unlock YNNARI in any detachment, because in the fluff one of them is almost always present amongst the Ynnari. But limiting them per detachment is too high an investment. Especially since only 2 of the 3 are arguably competitive
I expected them to be purchased like Assassins, either all 3 via Supreme Command, or pay 1CP per Character to add them to your army. That would have been better. And the Keyword swaps for REBORN as the selectable Trait would work well with that change
Burnage wrote: "An okay army trait with stratagems that aren't great" which also costs 600 points to unlock for your entire army seems like a pretty good reason for complaint overall.
That isn't required at all at the point levels the game is played at though - you only need 1 Ynnari character per detachment right? Yncarne not getting a point drop is probably the most disappointing thing about this release for me. Also - Incubi not getting SFD...why the heck to you have to pay CP for them to get SFD?
Burnage wrote: "An okay army trait with stratagems that aren't great" which also costs 600 points to unlock for your entire army seems like a pretty good reason for complaint overall.
That isn't required at all at the point levels the game is played at though - you only need 1 Ynnari character per detachment right? Yncarne not getting a point drop is probably the most disappointing thing about this release for me. Also - Incubi not getting SFD...why the heck to you have to pay CP for them to get SFD?
You can't use the best stratagem (+1 Attack) unless you take all three characters, sadly.
Unless I have missed something that's 1740 points. You could chuck in 10 points of wargear (idk, a blast pistol maybe), somewhere.
There probably isn't enough troops for my liking (I feel obsec is good generally - and seems more and more vital for CA18 missions) - but there are a lot of threats and a good pool of CP before any regeneration effects. You could swap out the rangers for dire avengers - I'm not really sold on either. To get some more bodies and save up some more points you could go with storm guardians.
I don't see many people talking about it - but I like wraithlords without guns. Taken this way they are cheap to the point its not hugely efficient to shoot them with lascannons - and with the blade they are a threat to other high T monsters/vehicles. With Ynnari's various doom effects though you might not even need this - S7/AP-3/3 Damage is a good base stat line - I just like the S9 better. Wound say Knights 8/9 times beats wounding them 5/9 times. But then knights might not be so prevalent in the meta any more. Mass splinter fire (or Deathwatch) are going to hurt though.
Going to 2000 I'd max the reaver squad, add another Razorwing and maybe give the Wraithlords some guns. Or grab some more squads of Kabalites just to hold objectives/screen.
Galef wrote: To be fair, that really is how it should be. Like it or not, Ynnari aren't supposed to be the defacto-best option. That was why they were OP before.
YNNARI, like Codex traits, are supposed to just add flavor to your games, not be a means to "make a more competitive list". Sure traits like Alaitoc exist as outliers to this philosophy, but I can only see these Ynnari changes as a course correction to get the game back to how it should be.
I disagree on this.
I don't think there is anything wrong with GW going "we imagine the Ynnari as an assault-focused infantry+bikers drawn from across the Eldar family. We are therefore going to devise rules with that in mind to encourage people to use those units."
"We also recognise that most of these units are not popular or widely played at the moment, especially in a competitive setting, which would imply those rules need to be strong if this is going to work."
"As a result - if someone wants to run say Banshees, or Scorpions, or Incubi, the most efficient way to do it will be Ynnari".
Now there is a problem if "Ynnari Banshees are the most broken thing in the game" - but having alternative buffs gives you design space. "These units are good as Ynnari", "These units are good as Alaitoc", "this specific build works with this Harlequin Masque" etc.
I mean nothing stopped you taking a big Eldar assault infantry army with say Saim Hann and the Avatar of Khaine supported by Strife or cursed blade Wyches. But it wasn't very good, which is why most people probably never saw it.
We can only speculate what GW intention were when they redesign Ynnari.
Activatable trait should to give the army big bonus and not to be comparable with the passives from the main factions. For me they were so scared from making mistake they redesign them in the most boring way possible, without making them totally unplayable. At least they could have made your trait to be active until your next turn.
I always felt the old trait was a nice homage to tomb kings. For the most part tomb kings magic where incatations where you acted outside regular time. Marching or attacking. Qnd both where dead themed. But it really was out of place. This new trait is OK ish.
But you need named characters? How small are the ynari? Are they just walking around with their possy? I thought this was a new big faction.
Unless I have missed something that's 1740 points. You could chuck in 10 points of wargear (idk, a blast pistol maybe), somewhere.
There probably isn't enough troops for my liking (I feel obsec is good generally - and seems more and more vital for CA18 missions) - but there are a lot of threats and a good pool of CP before any regeneration effects. You could swap out the rangers for dire avengers - I'm not really sold on either. To get some more bodies and save up some more points you could go with storm guardians.
I don't see many people talking about it - but I like wraithlords without guns. Taken this way they are cheap to the point its not hugely efficient to shoot them with lascannons - and with the blade they are a threat to other high T monsters/vehicles. With Ynnari's various doom effects though you might not even need this - S7/AP-3/3 Damage is a good base stat line - I just like the S9 better. Wound say Knights 8/9 times beats wounding them 5/9 times. But then knights might not be so prevalent in the meta any more. Mass splinter fire (or Deathwatch) are going to hurt though.
Going to 2000 I'd max the reaver squad, add another Razorwing and maybe give the Wraithlords some guns. Or grab some more squads of Kabalites just to hold objectives/screen.
(Edit: By blade I mean ghostglaive).
Why not make your Succubus into an Archon? That way you get Re-rolls 1 in shooting and melee for all <Reborn Drukhari> and you have the option for the new Relic
Elfric wrote: Could someone clarify the fight first rule? Does this mean we even fight first even in our opponents fight phase?
If something died that turn, then yes.
Here's a couple of examples:
1) An opponent kills nothing before combat then charges with a unit of Genestealers into a bunch of Ynarri Wych units.
The Genestealers fight first and kill a unit of Wyches, now the Wyches have Always Strike First, but it doesn't matter as they all just fight now anyway.
2) An opponent kills nothing before combat then charges with tow units of Genestealers into a bunch of Ynarri Wych units.
The first Genestealers fight first and kill a unit of Wyches, now the Wyches have Always Strike First, so a unit of Wyches fights next, before the second unit of stealers.
3) An opponent shoots a Venom to death then charges with two units of Genestealers into a bunch of Ynarri Wych units
The first Genestealers fight first (as it's their turn so they get first pick) and fail to kill a unit of Wyches, the Wyches already have Always Strike First (because of the dead venom), so a unit of Wyches fights next, before the second unit of stealers.
Unless I have missed something that's 1740 points. You could chuck in 10 points of wargear (idk, a blast pistol maybe), somewhere.
There probably isn't enough troops for my liking (I feel obsec is good generally - and seems more and more vital for CA18 missions) - but there are a lot of threats and a good pool of CP before any regeneration effects. You could swap out the rangers for dire avengers - I'm not really sold on either. To get some more bodies and save up some more points you could go with storm guardians.
I don't see many people talking about it - but I like wraithlords without guns. Taken this way they are cheap to the point its not hugely efficient to shoot them with lascannons - and with the blade they are a threat to other high T monsters/vehicles. With Ynnari's various doom effects though you might not even need this - S7/AP-3/3 Damage is a good base stat line - I just like the S9 better. Wound say Knights 8/9 times beats wounding them 5/9 times. But then knights might not be so prevalent in the meta any more. Mass splinter fire (or Deathwatch) are going to hurt though.
Going to 2000 I'd max the reaver squad, add another Razorwing and maybe give the Wraithlords some guns. Or grab some more squads of Kabalites just to hold objectives/screen.
(Edit: By blade I mean ghostglaive).
Why not make your Succubus into an Archon? That way you get Re-rolls 1 in shooting and melee for all <Reborn Drukhari> and you have the option for the new Relic
The succubus is 26 points cheaper, which is often important in and of itself. And reaver shooting is nothing to write home about.
Elfric wrote: Could someone clarify the fight first rule? Does this mean we even fight first even in our opponents fight phase?
Who every players turn it is will always get the 1st option.
But there are 3 phases in which you can fight, Fight 1st, normal fighting, fight last.
Lets say an Ork player charged you, the Ork player will still gets to pick 1 unit to fight with first, but b.c he has 2 other "fight first" units and all of yours are also "fight first" you alternate, he goes, you go, he goes, you go, you do this until all "fight first" as gone, then you continue to normal combat, he again gets to pick first b.c it is his turn, then you go to fight last, and he again will pick first
Remember to do all combats in each phase, if you have 7 fight first, you get to do them all before non-fight first, so if he had 2 fight first and 2 non fight first, those 2 non fight first will have to wait for all 7 of yours.
karandrasss wrote: Anyone got the math for Crimson Hunter with 5++ from Shield of Ynnead vs. Alaitoc? Which is tougher?
Assuming plasma users rapid fire and don't care about dying below are the shots to kill stats. Remember that if something get's within 12" of the Alaitoc flyer it gets a lot worse for it. Any other guns/units you'd like the stats for? It's mostly a wash to be honest unless the enemy gets within the 12" bubble (RF plasma and Melta shots in the table) or the weapon is AP -3. Alaitoc is better against AP-3 or lower outside of 12", against AP-4 or better it's a tie outside 12". Ynarri is better against AP-3 or greater within 12" and the same against AP -2 or worse within 12". These numbers are for BS 3+ models.
I think Ynarri wins for Hemlocks, provided that the 5++ is in effect and Alaitoc for Crimson Hunters.
karandrasss wrote: Anyone got the math for Crimson Hunter with 5++ from Shield of Ynnead vs. Alaitoc? Which is tougher?
Assuming plasma users rapid fire and don't care about dying below are the shots to kill stats. Remember that if something get's within 12" of the Alaitoc flyer it gets a lot worse for it. Any other guns/units you'd like the stats for? It's mostly a wash to be honest unless the enemy gets within the 12" bubble (RF plasma and Melta shots in the table) or the weapon is AP -3. Alaitoc is better against AP-3 or lower outside of 12", against AP-4 or better it's a tie outside 12". Ynarri is better against AP-3 or greater within 12" and the same against AP -2 or worse within 12". These numbers are for BS 3+ models.
I think Ynarri wins for Hemlocks, provided that the 5++ is in effect and Alaitoc for Crimson Hunters.
Is that wounds taken? Alaitoc takes more wounds from Lascannons?
karandrasss wrote: Anyone got the math for Crimson Hunter with 5++ from Shield of Ynnead vs. Alaitoc? Which is tougher?
Assuming plasma users rapid fire and don't care about dying below are the shots to kill stats. Remember that if something get's within 12" of the Alaitoc flyer it gets a lot worse for it. Any other guns/units you'd like the stats for? It's mostly a wash to be honest unless the enemy gets within the 12" bubble (RF plasma and Melta shots in the table) or the weapon is AP -3. Alaitoc is better against AP-3 or lower outside of 12", against AP-4 or better it's a tie outside 12". Ynarri is better against AP-3 or greater within 12" and the same against AP -2 or worse within 12". These numbers are for BS 3+ models.
I think Ynarri wins for Hemlocks, provided that the 5++ is in effect and Alaitoc for Crimson Hunters.
Is that wounds taken? Alaitoc takes more wounds from Lascannons?
With both I'm looking to make good use of the +1 attack strat (the reavers, wraithblades, and wyches being the assorted primary).
List 1 has more mobility (and CP). Yvraine and Visarch ride in the serpent, archon and yncarne footslog with wyches. It can also flex to add more wraithblades by dropping the serpent and a few wyches and dropping a ranger unit to storm guardians.
Personally I like list 2 a little more content-wise. The reavers help tie things in early and give the wyches time to slam into stuff. All the characters footslog with the wyches, except the autarch who acts like a mini-slam captain. Very CP starved though.
A HBC is 12 shots, wounding on 4+ for 2 damage with -1ap, 3 of them means its 36 shots, but thats 2-3 Riptides shooting while their target has been lit up. Thats +1BS, re-roll hits of 1 and can move/shoot heavy weapons (it is a Heavy weapon).
They are spending multi units shooting it. When you look at it that way yeah it should kill it,
vipoid wrote: @Amishprn86 Do you have any example Ynnari Wych Cult lists?
Also, what do you guys think of Ynnari Striking Scorpions? Assuming a unit has died, they'll be hitting on 2s and the Exarch (with a Scorpion Claw) will be generating extra attacks on a 5+.
I was out and dint see till now.
1st, Striking Scorpions will be better IMO, they are pretty cheap for what they are, a nice scalpel unit of them could be worth it, being 55pts for 5 its not bad at all.
As for Wyches, I feel you ether do MSU spam or 2 large units
A MSU unit are would be mostly to accompany the CWE or Quins, heck even Coven harder hitting units, you are using Ynnari more of a way to fight 1st and tie up, fighting first lets you pile in/consolidate and use movement shenanigans, something that can be very strong.
This gives you some dedicated shooting via Talos, Ravagers, there are left over points you can easily add 2 more talos for more. But the idea is to have cheap, small, fast wyches to support the Coven, i have done this before new Ynnari and it works great, might have to modify for ITC tho
As for Large units of Wyches? I would do more of a CWE battalion with a Wych Ynnari list, you could also do a CWE Ynnari as well, with Banshees, Autarch, Yvarine, Wraiths with Dcannon and 2 Wave serpents and troops to fill/
The Yncarne giving them ignore Moral, 40 bodies to character block, and a small 5 man back up/CP, DSing them you are hoping to get 1 into combat, with full re-rolls charges aor the option to re-roll 1 dice via CP, it shouldnt be to hard to get 1 in, but you will fail time to time, the Archon is there for re-roll hits of 1, its still 40 Pistol shots and re-roll hits in melee, so he is doubling up on the aura over the succubus, worst chase scenario you dont make either charge, but you still are able to manage if you had Wraiths, Guardians, Banshees, etc.. all coming in at the same time, you are priority overloading them.
Sorry for the delay in my replying. I sort of get the second idea but I'm not sure I understand the point of the MSU, footslogging Wyches in the first list. It seems like they're unlikely to accomplish much, Ynnari or not.
Could you perhaps explain that in a bit more detail?
vipoid wrote: @Amishprn86 Do you have any example Ynnari Wych Cult lists?
Also, what do you guys think of Ynnari Striking Scorpions? Assuming a unit has died, they'll be hitting on 2s and the Exarch (with a Scorpion Claw) will be generating extra attacks on a 5+.
I was out and dint see till now.
1st, Striking Scorpions will be better IMO, they are pretty cheap for what they are, a nice scalpel unit of them could be worth it, being 55pts for 5 its not bad at all.
As for Wyches, I feel you ether do MSU spam or 2 large units
A MSU unit are would be mostly to accompany the CWE or Quins, heck even Coven harder hitting units, you are using Ynnari more of a way to fight 1st and tie up, fighting first lets you pile in/consolidate and use movement shenanigans, something that can be very strong.
This gives you some dedicated shooting via Talos, Ravagers, there are left over points you can easily add 2 more talos for more. But the idea is to have cheap, small, fast wyches to support the Coven, i have done this before new Ynnari and it works great, might have to modify for ITC tho
As for Large units of Wyches? I would do more of a CWE battalion with a Wych Ynnari list, you could also do a CWE Ynnari as well, with Banshees, Autarch, Yvarine, Wraiths with Dcannon and 2 Wave serpents and troops to fill/
The Yncarne giving them ignore Moral, 40 bodies to character block, and a small 5 man back up/CP, DSing them you are hoping to get 1 into combat, with full re-rolls charges aor the option to re-roll 1 dice via CP, it shouldnt be to hard to get 1 in, but you will fail time to time, the Archon is there for re-roll hits of 1, its still 40 Pistol shots and re-roll hits in melee, so he is doubling up on the aura over the succubus, worst chase scenario you dont make either charge, but you still are able to manage if you had Wraiths, Guardians, Banshees, etc.. all coming in at the same time, you are priority overloading them.
Sorry for the delay in my replying. I sort of get the second idea but I'm not sure I understand the point of the MSU, footslogging Wyches in the first list. It seems like they're unlikely to accomplish much, Ynnari or not.
Could you perhaps explain that in a bit more detail?
They are to support bigger units, they need to be able to move just as fast (actually faster) and charge through walls, wyches are perfect for that, you dont really want 2 large units, you want lots of small units. This gives you lots of freedom in movements and charging. Also makes it harder to target them as a priority (unless you are ITC, then i wouldnt play this list) when you take units like Grots or Scorpions to do the damage and keep them alive, wyches can do that, a 5man Wych unit with just a Shardnet is 15pts more, so if you take the minimum of 3 units over kabals and as a battalion, you are only spending 235pts for a battalion (tho i like a 4th unit for backup) to support other units, take objectives, stop overwatch, gain CP, and stop units from falling back. Also if they hoot them they are forcing to waste shots on something to ignore LoS, thats less shots of important units.
What's the viability of the yncarne looking like? It seems rather expensive to me but I kind of want to use it being one of the coolest models we have. Any ways to make it viable?
B.c you no longer can Soulburst to "fight" he is a lot worst than before, no where near the value of 337 now, i would argue 280pts. But you can still play it, idk if its worth it much anymore.
Titanicus wrote: What's the viability of the yncarne looking like? It seems rather expensive to me but I kind of want to use it being one of the coolest models we have. Any ways to make it viable?
You need to find ways to leverage its ability to teleport around the battlefield to threaten numerous units or pull it out of trouble. It can appear in the place of any slain unit meaning you can get around the no-charging restriction if you teleport in your enemy's turn. Then it is in position and free to charge in your turn.
It is slightly better than a Daemon Prince in terms of damage output with similar durability and psychic powers but it costs a lot more and lacks the movement of a winged DP. To get value out of it, you need to get a handle on the teleport ability. It really is a precision instrument. Used well it can be like fighting a razor-edged ghost for your opponent. Used poorly and it is a 300+ point paperweight.
One advantage the avatar has is that it can ride in transports. So that might be a good place to stick it. Dark Eldar or Harlequin for speed. Eldar waveserpent for resiliency.
Also, if your opponent wipes out a unit of your late in either shooting or momre likly melee you can just zip it over there and it can charge the next turn. It seems good,
You can potensially save they by teleporting out of a hard spot when you kill another squad.
Is it affected by Tactical Reserves if you don't deploy it turn 1?
Also, how many Wraithblades does it take to kill a Castellan?
Tactical reserve rule should be applied.
The problem is how they are going to reach the Castellan and don`t all FW Knights have melee invuln. save.
If you are playing with Ynarri Reavers or Shining Spears (and you probably should be) when they fly in and nuke an IS (then tri point another, hopefully) you can teleport the Yncarne across. If they bring the Knight against the bikes the Yncarne can HI in if you have positioned correctly, if they don't, you should be close enough to charge. Further, if you are fighting in close like this and they kill one of your units (for example, with the Knight itself) in CC or at the end of the shooting phase you can bring the Yncanrne across. Small, fast, sacrificial units are great for forcing this T1. Playing the Yncarne requires a bunch of weird unintuitive play in other words, and I don't know if it's worth it, but it might be.
I've used the Yncarne quite a bit in the past, you could probably write an extensive tactica on utilising his teleport ability. A few notes:
- The most hilarious use of his ability is when the opponent sets up to kill him, but makes the mistake of killing another unit first- Zip! Yncarne is gone. This obviously requires a mistake from your opponent but his rules are so unique that it's happened a lot for me.
- He's an exceptional counter charge unit. If your opponent kills any of your units in assault, they're getting a visit from the Yncarne.
- Sending out small sacrificial units for him to teleport to is not a great strategy. It's kind of obvious so the opponent can choose to not take the bait, or set up to punish you if you do it. You need to use something more threatening than 3 jetbikes for this to work.
- Screen him with a unit that gives him teleport options if it dies. This difficult to explain and comes in many forms:
G G G G G G G G
G
G Y
G
G
G
G= Guardians.
Y= Yncarne
-In order to target the Yncarne the Guardians need to die.
-When the Guardians die, the Yncarne teleports to the location the last Guardian was removed from.
-You can set it up so that the place he moves to means he is no longer the closest model, or is out of range of whatever intended to kill him.
- He works best in an army with a lot of assault units. Get most of your army into the enemy lines so that whatever dies gives you options.
I also played the Yncarne extensively but am no longer sure of its value without double fight. D6 damage is too swingy, its warlord trait is awful, and there's too much invuln saves going around to rely on AP -4.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: - Sending out small sacrificial units for him to teleport to is not a great strategy. It's kind of obvious so the opponent can choose to not take the bait, or set up to punish you if you do it. You need to use something more threatening than 3 jetbikes for this to work.
Alternatively, sending out "sacrificial" units out in an obvious manner like this could be used to protect those units. It might allow you to put otherwise fragile units in positions that they would normal get wiped, but if the opponent fears the Yncarne popping up there, they may ignore that unit. Thus allowing the unit to do some work.
Otherwise, some great points.
I've got a model that can be either an Avatar of Khiane or Yncarne and I debating with myself which would be best in a non-Ynnari CWE list. The points difference is really pushing it to Khaine.
karandrasss wrote: I also played the Yncarne extensively but am no longer sure of its value without double fight. D6 damage is too swingy, its warlord trait is awful, and there's too much invuln saves going around to rely on AP -4.
Doesn't it have the best Warlord trait? +1 S and attack is ideal. The jump from S6 to S7 is very significant as it allows him to wound vehicles on 4's rerolled instead of 5's.
Some quick maths tells me his Warlord trait makes him do ~15 wounds on average vs T7, instead of ~10 without it.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: - Sending out small sacrificial units for him to teleport to is not a great strategy. It's kind of obvious so the opponent can choose to not take the bait, or set up to punish you if you do it. You need to use something more threatening than 3 jetbikes for this to work.
Alternatively, sending out "sacrificial" units out in an obvious manner like this could be used to protect those units. It might allow you to put otherwise fragile units in positions that they would normal get wiped, but if the opponent fears the Yncarne popping up there, they may ignore that unit. Thus allowing the unit to do some work.
Otherwise, some great points.
I've got a model that can be either an Avatar of Khiane or Yncarne and I debating with myself which would be best in a non-Ynnari CWE list. The points difference is really pushing it to Khaine.
Spoiler:
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The Yncarne Base is a 80mm, its a huge base, if it was 40mm vs a 50mm sure your model and that base i would say is fine, but a 40mm vs an 80mm? No you need to get another base for it (Just Magnetize the base onto the larger base)
karandrasss wrote: I also played the Yncarne extensively but am no longer sure of its value without double fight. D6 damage is too swingy, its warlord trait is awful, and there's too much invuln saves going around to rely on AP -4.
Doesn't it have the best Warlord trait? +1 S and attack is ideal. The jump from S6 to S7 is very significant as it allows him to wound vehicles on 4's rerolled instead of 5's.
Some quick maths tells me his Warlord trait makes him do ~15 wounds on average vs T7, instead of ~10 without it.
Sure its a good WL trait but i dont think it makes up for its loses. It was consider "Playable" via top tables when it could attack twice, and could attack after teleporting. It lost both of those for +1atk and Str.
REMEMBER: It can re-roll wounds, so that +1 str isnt actually worth it all that much compare to double the attacks
Vs Rhino, 12 attacks, 2+ to hit re-roll wounds = 19.5 wounds Vs Rhink, +1str, +1 attack, 2+/re-roll wounds = 15.3 wounds
Sure its a good WL trait but i dont think it makes up for its loses. It was consider "Playable" via top tables when it could attack twice, and could attack after teleporting. It lost both of those for +1atk and Str.
REMEMBER: It can re-roll wounds, so that +1 str isnt actually worth it all that much compare to double the attacks
Vs Rhino, 12 attacks, 2+ to hit re-roll wounds = 19.5 wounds
Vs Rhink, +1str, +1 attack, 2+/re-roll wounds = 15.3 wounds
I think some wires are crossed here, I wasn't comparing him to the previous rules, just with and without the warlord trait. There doesn't seem much point bringing up the old rules, that can only lead to misery!
The Yncarne is bad, no two ways about it, but if you're playing ynnari now you're playing for fun.
Doesn't it have the best Warlord trait? +1 S and attack is ideal. The jump from S6 to S7 is very significant as it allows him to wound vehicles on 4's rerolled instead of 5's.
Eh, can't say I find it particularly impressive myself. IMO going from S6 to S7 isn't all that significant.
Personally, though, I don't think I'd want Yncarne to be my warlord in the first place. I'd prefer having an Archon, Autarch or Farseer as my Warlord. That way I can take more risks with Yncarne without giving up VPs if he dies.
The Yncarne can still attack after teleporting, providing a unit is killed during the enemy's turn and you can teleport within 3" of an enemy unit and heroic intervene in the charge phase.
Amishprn86 wrote: The Yncarne Base is a 80mm, its a huge base, if it was 40mm vs a 50mm sure your model and that base i would say is fine, but a 40mm vs an 80mm? No you need to get another base for it (Just Magnetize the base onto the larger base)
Well, technically, that's a 50mm base my model it on. But as you mentioned, it's a super easy fix and I'm not even worried about it. If I decided to start using it as the Yncarne, I'll just get an 80mm (really? 80mm though? ok)
Segway from that, Any thoughts on including any of the 3 Characters (specifically the Yncarne) into just CWE lists?
Amishprn86 wrote: The Yncarne Base is a 80mm, its a huge base, if it was 40mm vs a 50mm sure your model and that base i would say is fine, but a 40mm vs an 80mm? No you need to get another base for it (Just Magnetize the base onto the larger base)
Well, technically, that's a 50mm base my model it one. But as you mentioned, it's a super easy fix and I'm not even worried about it. If I decided to start using it as the Yncarne, I'll just get an 80mm (really? 80mm though? ok)
Segway from that, Any thoughts on including any of the 3 Characters (specifically the Yncarne) into just CWE lists?
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haven't thought about it yet, just trying Ynnari list ideas first.
I will try the 2 wraithseer, Yvraine, wraithblades, serpent in my games as Ynnari to see how it fares.
karandrasss wrote: You can revive a warlord Farseer too, then it can heal itself.
Yeah, I was initially planning to use a Ynnari Autarch but I'm coming round to the idea of a Ynnari Farseer instead.
The only thing I dislike is that Farseers are so rubbish in combat. I know you don't want them there most of the time, but still it would be nice if they could benefit from the various Ynnari melee buffs.
Galef wrote: Well, technically, that's a 50mm base my model it one. But as you mentioned, it's a super easy fix and I'm not even worried about it. If I decided to start using it as the Yncarne, I'll just get an 80mm (really? 80mm though? ok)
I'm pretty sue the Yncarne used to come with a 60mm base, so you could probably get away with that at least.
For those wondering, I just checked the GW website and it indeed says the Triumvirate included an 80mm round base. However, looking at the photos in comparison to the other models, this HAS to be a Typo. It's the 60mm (War Walker/Wraithlord) surely.
