https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

Have fun digging and finding the juiciest nuggets.

Rotate Ion Shields Nerfed! Mob Up Nerfed! You can FLY in the Charge Phase again!

Doesn't seem to be any points changes I can see though. :(

PSA: Castellan points changes and Assassin changes not in the right FAQs

These can only be found in this document here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_update_April_2019_en.pdf At the time of writing this document does not show up on the main FAQ portal.

Kind of frustrating that GW can't even do errata right.

Damn! Now there is now way to get hot-shot lasguns into rapid fire range!

The predicted nerf to Doom/Jinx/Reveal and the like working only on Craftworld units is there. I'm predicting that Guard/Knight soup will be absolutely dominating (ITC) tournaments with Ynnari being nerfed to the ground, and Skyweaver spam being dead.

Note not everything new is in magenta. Oblits are back to 115 points (its not in magenta). No changes to CP batteries that I can see.

Biggest change is the 4++ for knights.

I think this changes from having 1 knight with a 3++ to having 2 knights with a 4++.

Mental Onslaught NERFED! That is huge also.

Castellan again unchanged... Wait It looks like it went up by 100.

Castellan for sale!

Reemule wrote:
Biggest change is the 4++ for knights.



Castellan again unchanged, Cause people who thought it was are still bad at this game.

Pretty sure it went up 100 points with the weapons

No 3++ for Knights in general IS a change to the Castellan, so that's good.

The FAQ is surprisingly good.

 Chris521 wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Biggest change is the 4++ for knights.



Castellan again unchanged, Cause people who thought it was are still bad at this game.

Pretty sure it went up 100 points with the weapons

I don't see that in the IK Erratta where it would be. Just No more 3++, Death grip nerfed, Sancristan Forge changed but still sucks. Where are you seeing this change?

Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines, the Daemon Prince of Chaos datasheet from Codex:
Chaos Daemons, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from
Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different
datasheets for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines?
A3) No. For the purposes of these guidelines all these
datasheets are all considered to be the same.


Goodbye 9 demon princes!

Not a single buff for gk, instead 2++ gmndk nerf and not bolter disciplice for land raiders anymore..... Really? They better have a new book coming soon...

Big fan of what I've read so far.

A big surprise was even Reveal got the "Debuffs only matter when attacked by <Faction>" erratta, but I haven't seen any other factions with that nerf.

Glad to see GW finally clarified what "as if" means. I am happy with that one.

Reemule wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Biggest change is the 4++ for knights.



Castellan again unchanged, Cause people who thought it was are still bad at this game.

Pretty sure it went up 100 points with the weapons

I don't see that in the IK Erratta where it would be. Just No more 3++, Death grip nerfed, Sancristan Forge changed but still sucks. Where are you seeing this change?

I see it the the one that is linked for the Warhammer community article, at the bottom of the document.

Huh, Mob up got nerfed... and nothing else really got addressed... okay...

Deathwatch no longer get beta bolters for SIA and also space marine vehicles no longer get it either.... Annoying

Deathwatch no bolted discipline and SIA

Yea land raider crusader is obviously way to strong lol

At least the Castellan got nerfed.

No more double Hellfire Shells with Armorium Cherub either.

Castellan weapons changed. Well thats going on ebay.

Sub in Crusader or Porphy and the dance goes on...

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Glad to see GW finally clarified what "as if" means. I am happy with that one.

Amen!

It'll certainly help in YMDC

Thousand Sons can now tank mortal wounds from Perils of the Warp on the non-sorceror models in the unit, removing the instapop problem they had and the wonky interaction with the GSC Sanctus.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Deathwatch no longer get beta bolters for SIA and also space marine vehicles no longer get it either.... Annoying

Where does it say Marine vehicles don't get it anymore?

So funny that GW said not much to change yet this is probably the biggest changes to 8th since its inception

Still no clarification on what "army" means with the Renegade Traits. It's the only thing in the game which says "If your Chaos Space Marine army is taken from a Renegade Chapter" before saying you can pick the Codex trait or the Vigilus Trait. But what is "your Chaos Space Marine army"? My reading is that means your whole army has to be taken from a Renegade Chapter (i.e. not a Legion) to take the traits. So no Black Legion + Red Corsair min battalion.

Nearly everyone I talk to disagrees with me and says it works like normal, but this sentence is unique to this section and there's nothing which indicates what "your army taken from" means.

The ability to insta-pop someone with either death grip or GSC mental onslaught has been removed - both now automatically fail if the defending model rolls a natural 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hand Flamers appear to have been updated to the D6 profile from the GSC codex for everybody.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You can FLY in the Charge Phase again!

Sort of.

You only ignore vertical distance and terrain in the movement phase. In the charge phase you ignore models (except buildings), but you have to measure vertical distance and you have to move around terrain.

Still, seems a good compromise!

the_scotsman wrote:
The ability to insta-pop someone with either death grip or GSC mental onslaught has been removed - both now automatically fail if the defending model rolls a natural 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hand Flamers appear to have been updated to the D6 profile from the GSC codex for everybody.

Metal onslaught was just broken RAW, deathgrip taking 2 nerfs in the same FAQ was probably unnecessary.
Castellen is very dead now, expect to see them going for pennies on Ebay shortly.

 skchsan wrote:
The FAQ is surprisingly good.

Really really good. Fly is back in a meaningful way. Castellans, Ynnari, and Doom eat it.

IS are still 4 points so I guess we still have SOMETHING to argue about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Metal onslaught was just broken RAW, deathgrip taking 2 nerfs in the same FAQ was probably unnecessary.
Castellen is very dead now, expect to see them going for pennies on Ebay shortly.

They're still quite good, but to each their own.

Very happy with most of the changes.

I'm not sold on the Bolter Discipline change as it is a straight nerf in all ways. It should have applied that same way, but been +1 shot instead of double, but still double at half range.
Would have solves the Vehicle issue and the DW SIA issue without strictly removing it form those entirely.

But, oh well. DW are still good and Bolter Discipline is still a buff to regular Marines. Just sad that it encourages gunline play.

Will be interested to see how this will effect "top-lists" since Ynnari have been nerfed and the Castallan is +100pts more and can't have 3++ anymore.
Loyal 32 are still a thing.

-

No more using cherubs to double dip on hell fire shells or flakk missiles

 fraser1191 wrote:
No more using cherubs to double dip on hell fire shells or flakk missiles

That never made any sense to me.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
The FAQ is surprisingly good.

Really really good. Fly is back in a meaningful way. Castellans, Ynnari, and Doom eat it.

IS are still 4 points so I guess we still have SOMETHING to argue about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Metal onslaught was just broken RAW, deathgrip taking 2 nerfs in the same FAQ was probably unnecessary.
Castellen is very dead now, expect to see them going for pennies on Ebay shortly.

They're still quite good, but to each their own.

Not when a Porphy is just 130 points more, or a Crusader is 200 points less. Think of it this way... is it as good on it own as a a Crusader and the Loyal 32? and a few points for something else?

 Galef wrote:
Very happy with most of the changes.

I'm not sold on the Bolter Discipline change as it is a straight nerf in all ways. It should have applied that same way, but been +1 shot instead of double, but still double at half range.
Would have solves the Vehicle issue and the DW SIA issue without strictly removing it form those entirely.

But, oh well. DW are still good and Bolter Discipline is still a buff to regular Marines. Just sad that it encourages gunline play.

Will be interested to see how this will effect "top-lists" since Ynnari have been nerfed and the Castallan is +100pts more and can't have 3++ anymore.
Loyal 32 are still a thing.

-

Guardbrigadr stays and swaps 1 Castellen for 2 crusaders.
It's still blatantly obvious that someone's being dishonest about 4ppm guardsmen.

What I find weird is that the Castellan took a sizable hit, but so did its biggest counter. Doom, Jinx, and double shooting Eldar units were the natural counter to that kind of list. With all of those taking a hit, I think that Knights actually got a competitive boost, just that we might be seeing 2-3 now instead of the Super-Buffed 1.

Part of me is a bit annoyed about the Castellan, as what made it OP was the 3++ Invulnerable and Raven Strategem. Perhaps it would be better to change these rather than add +100pts to the cost?

 Valkyrie wrote:
Part of me is a bit annoyed about the Castellan, as what made it OP was the 3++ Invulnerable and Raven Strategem. Perhaps it would be better to change these rather than add +100pts to the cost?

Eh, it was still undercosted by about 75-80ish points. So 100 is maybe a bit on the too much spectrum.

I think I'm most disappointed there's still nothing to address soup/CP batteries and encourage mono faction. Which means it won't ever change, which sucks for people like me who come from a time when you were an "Iron Warriors player" and not a "Chaos Space Marine player".

Wayniac wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Part of me is a bit annoyed about the Castellan, as what made it OP was the 3++ Invulnerable and Raven Strategem. Perhaps it would be better to change these rather than add +100pts to the cost?

Eh, it was still undercosted by about 75-80ish points. So 100 is maybe a bit on the too much spectrum.

I think the castellan might be a victim of "give the people what they want, and the people want BLOOD" syndrome.

Like the change or not, GW clearly knew that knocking the castellan out of the limelight would be good PR.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Part of me is a bit annoyed about the Castellan, as what made it OP was the 3++ Invulnerable and Raven Strategem. Perhaps it would be better to change these rather than add +100pts to the cost?

Problem is castellan never had to move unless there was massive LoS blocking cover or it had to step out of combat

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The ability to insta-pop someone with either death grip or GSC mental onslaught has been removed - both now automatically fail if the defending model rolls a natural 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hand Flamers appear to have been updated to the D6 profile from the GSC codex for everybody.

Metal onslaught was just broken RAW, deathgrip taking 2 nerfs in the same FAQ was probably unnecessary.
Castellen is very dead now, expect to see them going for pennies on Ebay shortly.

Not really. If anything they are even better now - their biggest threats got nerfed. Doom/Jinx only effect CWE. Ynnari are dumpstered. I promise you every single castellan player would take 100 points out of their list to never have to play Ynnari and still win. 4++ Castellan is still really hard to kill. It's just not impossible. Plus Crusaders are much more appealing now. This is a good change.

Overall very happy with the changes myself. This oughta change the competitive scene a bit.

Xenomancer do you wish to buy mine? It is for sale!

I think is a very good FAQ and in general good changes.

People will stop using the Castellan thats right (Or not because as others have said their bigger counters don't work anymore) because it has been balanced.

Just compare the old castellan with like, ALL other superheavies in the game and try to arguee that the Castellan was fine. I don't have that much symphaty for those that chase the meta dragon and try to tell others that the clearly busted units that they sell for pennies the moment they take a nerf are "Right, you just need to learn how to play".

And I'm not a very good player of 40k I recognise that. But that hypocrisy is infuriating.

the_scotsman wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Part of me is a bit annoyed about the Castellan, as what made it OP was the 3++ Invulnerable and Raven Strategem. Perhaps it would be better to change these rather than add +100pts to the cost?

Eh, it was still undercosted by about 75-80ish points. So 100 is maybe a bit on the too much spectrum.

I think the castellan might be a victim of "give the people what they want, and the people want BLOOD" syndrome.

Like the change or not, GW clearly knew that knocking the castellan out of the limelight would be good PR.

Think what you may - its obvious to most people you get too much for what you pay for with a Castellan. Now you have a choice between fully decked crusader and Castellan. I think most will still go Castellan. Or maybe Shadowsword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reemule wrote:
Xenomancer do you wish to buy mine? It is for sale!

Nah I don't need 2. I have a Vaillant also. I wonder if it has become playable now.

I for one look forward to picking up some cheap, poorly painted in 3 colors, and a bti of sand pva gluesd on for "basing" Castellens on ebay. Then converting some to ork gargants and one for the display case after painting to match my other knights.

The Marauder Brutes get "a close-combat weapon". What does that mean? Do they mean melee weapon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, GW screwed over R&H again. They changed one thing when there was so much they needed to do.

I love the idea of people stopping bringing certain models because they became more balanced... I still use the worse models that are best painted. XD

 Galef wrote:
Just sad that it encourages gunline play.
-

Yes I would have loved a change that made them assault 2 base.

(Actually I would love a change that made them assault two strength 4, -1 armour with an alt fire mode of rapid fire 2, str 3, 0 armour to let them both more rapidly around the board as befits an elite rapid strike army and the ability to put our buckets of dice at point blank range when getting swarmed, but I can but dream.)

Designing my army to now be able to pop a 4++ knight (2 of them) vs one 3++.

Not going to see the ubiquitous farseer on a jetbike in all the DE armies. No more skyweavers for that mater (see ya clowns).

Don't think this is going to shake up the meta that much. Yanarri was already falling out and being replaced by flyers spam. The no-move blocking rule helps but those flyer spam armies will still table you (they just won't block you in your corner while doing it). Castillians will be replaced by two of the smaller knights (and maybe a gallant).

No addressing CP issues or soup.
No help for poor grey knights and space wolves (and to a lesser extend non-Gman marines).
Doom and Jinx should require LOS but the change was good.
Raven strat and fight at full health strats didn't get nerfs (the fight a full health strat really bugs me.)
I had no idea I could use the same strategem more than once per round. Why did I think strats were one use...

Reemule wrote:


Not when a Porphy is just 130 points more, or a Crusader is 200 points less. Think of it this way... is it as good on it own as a a Crusader and the Loyal 32? and a few points for something else?

Duuuuuude....

A crusader is 200 cheaper, because it comes nowhere near the Castellan.

2D6 S8 AP2 DD3, 12 S6 AP2 D2, and maybe a melta gun

versus...

+4 wounds, 2D6 S8 AP3 D2, D6 Volcano, FOUR meltaguns, 4D3 S7 AP1 DD3, and two missiles that ignore just about everything in the game.

The Plasma is better than the RFBC. The siegebreakers are better than the AGC. We're at parity. THEN you add the Volcano, meltaguns, missiles, and wounds. THEN you add access to Cawl's which is just straight better than any of the other relic guns.

So why did the brotherhood champion get doubled nerfed lol... Was that model tearing up the meta... I have literally never seen it used.

Another interesting change is you can never get pre game command points refunded anymore.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The ability to insta-pop someone with either death grip or GSC mental onslaught has been removed - both now automatically fail if the defending model rolls a natural 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hand Flamers appear to have been updated to the D6 profile from the GSC codex for everybody.

Metal onslaught was just broken RAW, deathgrip taking 2 nerfs in the same FAQ was probably unnecessary.
Castellen is very dead now, expect to see them going for pennies on Ebay shortly.

Not really. If anything they are even better now - their biggest threats got nerfed. Doom/Jinx only effect CWE. Ynnari are dumpstered. I promise you every single castellan player would take 100 points out of their list to never have to play Ynnari and still win. 4++ Castellan is still really hard to kill. It's just not impossible. Plus Crusaders are much more appealing now. This is a good change.

Why take a Castellen at that points cost with a 4++, when 2 crusaders can be had both with 4++ for less CP burning.
I dont play with a Castellen so I'm happy for now, I just wish they would fix CP instead of constantly upping CP for strategums based on cheap CP for outside codex.

Oooh...no more DP, LRBT or HWT spamming across codexes.

bananathug wrote:
Why did I think strats were one use...

because they are in Matched play.

-

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Reemule wrote:


Not when a Porphy is just 130 points more, or a Crusader is 200 points less. Think of it this way... is it as good on it own as a a Crusader and the Loyal 32? and a few points for something else?

Duuuuuude....

A crusader is 200 cheaper, because it comes nowhere near the Castellan.

2D6 S8 AP2 DD3, 12 S6 AP2 D2, and maybe a melta gun

versus...

+4 wounds, 2D6 S8 AP3 D2, D6 Volcano, FOUR meltaguns, 4D3 S7 AP1 DD3, and two missiles that ignore just about everything in the game.

The Plasma is better than the RFBC. The siegebreakers are better than the AGC. We're at parity. THEN you add the Volcano, meltaguns, missiles, and wounds. THEN you add access to Cawl's which is just straight better than any of the other relic guns.

Ehhh - I agree that things are more in balance now but lots of the relic guns are really good IMO.

Storm spear relic is reroll all hits ap-3 +12 range.
Endless furry is god teir.
Tyranis melta gets 2d6 damage at all ranges and +12 range.
Relic fist is flat 8 damage and doesn't suffer hit penalty.

Those are all really good.

 lolman1c wrote:
I love the idea of people stopping bringing certain models because they became more balanced... I still use the worse models that are best painted. XD

THe Castellan was getting pretty rare in Pure Knights. People found when you had 9CP you couldn't afford to rotate it. I was actually excited for a while, cause with the 4++ RIS nerf, I was thinking I could make it a Warlord, give it the Trait, and afford to field it.

Point wise, it just isn't going to measure up to the Porphy or Crusader now. And that might get even worse with the release of the Arastus or whatever its called, when that happens. The castellan was great cause with Raven Strat it was putting out a huge amount of shots. The porphy has many of the same options, but your also going to full re-rolls as it has a 2+ bs.

Reality with the 4++ change, I'm not sure you would have seen the Castellan anyway. You needed a castellan for their castellan. Now even if they bring a 4++knight, even a Porphy... do you still need a Castellan? Your going to want a strong point.. but did you need that strong point? I think you might see Crusaders much more now. Gives your enemy the same focal point they were going to get, but you save 100+ points.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The ability to insta-pop someone with either death grip or GSC mental onslaught has been removed - both now automatically fail if the defending model rolls a natural 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hand Flamers appear to have been updated to the D6 profile from the GSC codex for everybody.

Metal onslaught was just broken RAW, deathgrip taking 2 nerfs in the same FAQ was probably unnecessary.
Castellen is very dead now, expect to see them going for pennies on Ebay shortly.

Not really. If anything they are even better now - their biggest threats got nerfed. Doom/Jinx only effect CWE. Ynnari are dumpstered. I promise you every single castellan player would take 100 points out of their list to never have to play Ynnari and still win. 4++ Castellan is still really hard to kill. It's just not impossible. Plus Crusaders are much more appealing now. This is a good change.

Why take a Castellen at that points cost with a 4++, when 2 crusaders can be had both with 4++ for less CP burning.
I dont play with a Castellen so I'm happy for now, I just wish they would fix CP instead of constantly upping CP for strategums based on cheap CP for outside codex.

Same CP to give 2 knights 4++ because the warlord trait +1 invo will always be the Castellan.

Overall this FAQ is really well done, imo. Well presented, too. It feels like GW really took their time with this one, and it shows.

bananathug wrote:
Designing my army to now be able to pop a 4++ knight (2 of them) vs one 3++.

Right! That makes things much easier to manage when I get out the calculator.

Flamephoenix182 wrote:
So why did the brotherhood champion get doubled nerfed lol... Was that model tearing up the meta... I have literally never seen it used.

Another interesting change is you can never get pre game command points refunded anymore.

Well heed got nerfed too. As we know GK were too destructive on the meta. But am not angry, I expected a nerf to something, just to keep the tradition up

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ehhh - I agree that things are more in balance now but lots of the relic guns are really good IMO.

Storm spear relic is reroll all hits ap-3 +12 range.
Endless furry is god teir.
Tyranis melta gets 2d6 damage at all ranges and +12 range.
Relic fist is flat 8 damage and doesn't suffer hit penalty.

Those are all really good.

Sure, but I'd rather stand off at 48"/80" with a giant gun than try to get within 24" for melta / punching range if shooting something was my goal.

What sheet has the castellan point increase?

Where are people seeing the Castellan points change? I can't see any points changes in the Knights FAQ?

 buddha wrote:
What sheet has the castellan point increase?

Down at the end of the main FAQ. The weapons went up in cost. Maybe it's there because it reprices for both loyalist and chaos.

 Galef wrote:

Will be interested to see how this will effect "top-lists" since Ynnari have been nerfed and the Castallan is +100pts more and can't have 3++ anymore.
Loyal 32 are still a thing.

-

The Jim Vesal special (and all other Plaguebearer stuff) got better, if anything, with Lootaz nerf.

Tau will still murder everything in Europe.

Imperial soups with Krast Crusaders remain untouched, and Smash/Shield Captains are ready for a come-back.

Eldar Flyer spam is probably still there. It's the Eldar list least affected by the doom-nerf and benefits from the Loota-nerf and the Mental Onslaught nerf. Also, all other Eldar(soup) builds just got hit 10x harder with the Doom nerf. The Aircraft thing seems minor in comparison, IMO.


Orks and GSC are probably out, before they even arrived (especially some of the variant Orks stuff like Meganobz lists, etc.. which are collateral damage to the Lootaz nerf).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ehhh - I agree that things are more in balance now but lots of the relic guns are really good IMO.

Storm spear relic is reroll all hits ap-3 +12 range.
Endless furry is god teir.
Tyranis melta gets 2d6 damage at all ranges and +12 range.
Relic fist is flat 8 damage and doesn't suffer hit penalty.

Those are all really good.

Sure, but I'd rather stand off at 48"/80" with a giant gun than try to get within 24" for melta / punching range if shooting something was my goal.

Castellan sure has the range advantages but also has 4 melta guns with 12 inch range. Before those were basically free. Now with the price increase you need to use those meltas or a crusader with a relic is probably a better choice because it's also great in CC too.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
What sheet has the castellan point increase?

Down at the end of the main FAQ. The weapons went up in cost. Maybe it's there because it reprices for both loyalist and chaos.

FAQ for which book? It's definitely not in the Imperial Knights Faq I'm looking at.

Torquar wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
What sheet has the castellan point increase?

Down at the end of the main FAQ. The weapons went up in cost. Maybe it's there because it reprices for both loyalist and chaos.

FAQ for which book? It's definitely not in the Imperial Knights Faq I'm looking at.

Just the big overall FAQ
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_update_April_2019_en.pdf

Regarding Deathwatch:

I'm trying to remember as I don't have the codex handy at work, but I'm thinking that originally a Captain couldn't take a Xenophase blade with a Storm Bolter or Storm Shield.

The FAQ clarifies that I can now take SB/XB together, but (again, I don't have the codex handy) does this clarification make it so I can take the Xenophase blade with a Storm Shield?

Regarding SIA + Bolter Discipline:

Seems fair. You can still use Bolter Discipline, just not at the same time as SIA. And now Terminators and Bikers in mixed Veterans units can use Bolter Disclipine (before they really couldn't because they didnt have Terminator or Biker keywords)

Regarding Knights:

Happy that they capped the invuln at 4++ (I own a castellan and 3 knights for what it's worth).
Sad that they increased the Castellan cost so much. Maybe 50 points, but 100? Ehhhh, you already didn't see them in mono Knights, and now you literally never will. Heck, if anything, they could have just increased the Imperium Castellan by 50 and dropped the cost of the Chaos version by 50 to represent the difference in strength that Relics and Traits provide to the Imperium models.

I don't like the change to Raven Guard strat/similar at all.

I see GW still won't back down from the idea that only Marines don't keep fighting using their chapter's doctrines when they crew a vehicle despite every other army getting to fight the way they're supposed to.

I'm never going to stop being salty about this until they fix it. Also taking Bolter Discipline from vehicles was a stupid choice. It finally did something to help Rhinos this edition and made a Land Raider pattern vehicle viable in armies and they took it away instead of addressing why no one really runs those vehicles in the first place. This feels like a case of survivor's bias at work.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Reemule wrote:


Not when a Porphy is just 130 points more, or a Crusader is 200 points less. Think of it this way... is it as good on it own as a a Crusader and the Loyal 32? and a few points for something else?

Duuuuuude....

A crusader is 200 cheaper, because it comes nowhere near the Castellan.

2D6 S8 AP2 DD3, 12 S6 AP2 D2, and maybe a melta gun

versus...

+4 wounds, 2D6 S8 AP3 D2, D6 Volcano, FOUR meltaguns, 4D3 S7 AP1 DD3, and two missiles that ignore just about everything in the game.

The Plasma is better than the RFBC. The siegebreakers are better than the AGC. We're at parity. THEN you add the Volcano, meltaguns, missiles, and wounds. THEN you add access to Cawl's which is just straight better than any of the other relic guns.

Actually my Crusaders have 2 Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Ironstorm Missile Pod,and then RFBC, and Avenger Gatling. All for 210 point less. So all told it averages out to 35 shots. The Castellan averages to 23.5. Now the castellan shots are better.. but 210 points better? And weight of fire is something going for it. And the Heavy Flamer auto hitting is useful for a model that can almost always walk from combat.

 Galas wrote:
Q3) Are the Daemon Prince datasheet from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines, the Daemon Prince of Chaos datasheet from Codex:
Chaos Daemons, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle datasheet from
Codex: Death Guard, and the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
datasheet from Codex: Thousand Sons all considered different
datasheets for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines?
A3) No. For the purposes of these guidelines all these
datasheets are all considered to be the same.


Goodbye 9 demon princes!

no one ever play anymore 9 DP since long time, welcome instead DP's can again charge over those pesky screens

No-one else going to mention that chaos legion traits now apply to all characters? Lord discordant and steed riders just got a lovely boost

They messed up...

Q: With regards the Cadre Fireblade’s Volley Fire ability, what exactly is meant by ‘may fire an extra shot’?
A: It means the player can make one more hit roll for each model. Note that for a model with a pulse rifle (a Rapid Fire weapon) this means that it would make two hit rolls unless the target is within half range, in which case it would make three hit rolls.

??? They fire one shot at range and two up close.
The ability specifically calls out an extra shot if the target is within 1/2 weapon range - so only rapid fire range. Odd.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see GW still won't back down from the idea that only Marines don't keep fighting using their chapter's doctrines when they crew a vehicle despite every other army getting to fight the way they're supposed to.

I'm never going to stop being salty about this until they fix it. Also taking Bolter Discipline from vehicles was a stupid choice. It finally did something to help Rhinos this edition and made a Land Raider pattern vehicle viable in armies and they took it away instead of addressing why no one really runs those vehicles in the first place. This feels like a case of survivor's bias at work.

The vehicle bolter nerf is unnecessary. I think you are right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Antubis wrote:
No-one else going to mention that chaos legion traits now apply to all characters? Lord discordant and steed riders just got a lovely boost

LEGIT!!!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see GW still won't back down from the idea that only Marines don't keep fighting using their chapter's doctrines when they crew a vehicle despite every other army getting to fight the way they're supposed to.

It seems like GW has no consistent philosophy on traits. Sometimes a subfaction trait applies to vehicles, sometimes vehicles get a different ability from other unit types, and sometimes vehicles get nothing.

Alaitoc has one powerful rule that every unit benefits from, despite it making no sense on things lile hovertanks. Most Guard factions have different infantry and vehicle traits. Legion/Chapter traits don't affect vehicles, dreads aside, at all. I cant see any consistent form of reasoning here.

Matora wrote:
They messed up...

Q: With regards the Cadre Fireblade’s Volley Fire ability, what exactly is meant by ‘may fire an extra shot’?
A: It means the player can make one more hit roll for each model. Note that for a model with a pulse rifle (a Rapid Fire weapon) this means that it would make two hit rolls unless the target is within half range, in which case it would make three hit
rolls.

They fire one shot at range and two up close. ???

Yes, that's how Rapid Fire (1) works.

Well, Lord Disco got a buff if you play Alpha Legion, which is funny because they are probably the least likely to use Daemon Engines...

Reemule wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Reemule wrote:


Not when a Porphy is just 130 points more, or a Crusader is 200 points less. Think of it this way... is it as good on it own as a a Crusader and the Loyal 32? and a few points for something else?

Duuuuuude....

A crusader is 200 cheaper, because it comes nowhere near the Castellan.

2D6 S8 AP2 DD3, 12 S6 AP2 D2, and maybe a melta gun

versus...

+4 wounds, 2D6 S8 AP3 D2, D6 Volcano, FOUR meltaguns, 4D3 S7 AP1 DD3, and two missiles that ignore just about everything in the game.

The Plasma is better than the RFBC. The siegebreakers are better than the AGC. We're at parity. THEN you add the Volcano, meltaguns, missiles, and wounds. THEN you add access to Cawl's which is just straight better than any of the other relic guns.

Actually my Crusaders have 2 Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Ironstorm Missile Pod,and then RFBC, and Avenger Gatling. All for 210 point less. So all told it averages out to 35 shots. The Castellan averages to 23.5. Now the castellan shots are better.. but 210 points better? And weight of fire is something going for it. And the Heavy Flamer auto hitting is useful for a model that can almost always walk from combat.

Crusaders are good. They have always been good. Castellan was just OP. I've been saying this all eddition.

 Stux wrote:

Matora wrote:
They messed up...

Q: With regards the Cadre Fireblade’s Volley Fire ability, what exactly is meant by ‘may fire an extra shot’?
A: It means the player can make one more hit roll for each model. Note that for a model with a pulse rifle (a Rapid Fire weapon) this means that it would make two hit rolls unless the target is within half range, in which case it would make three hit
rolls.

They fire one shot at range and two up close. ???

Yes, that's how Rapid Fire (1) works.

"it would make two hit rolls unless the target is within half range"

There's no way to get two shots outside half range.

Sunny Side Up wrote:


Just the big overall FAQ
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_update_April_2019_en.pdf

Yea this is not in the FAQ page - only from FB.

It is well worth a read as GW gives considerable verbage to the issues.

 Stux wrote:

Matora wrote:
They messed up...

Q: With regards the Cadre Fireblade’s Volley Fire ability, what exactly is meant by ‘may fire an extra shot’?
A: It means the player can make one more hit roll for each model. Note that for a model with a pulse rifle (a Rapid Fire weapon) this means that it would make two hit rolls unless the target is within half range, in which case it would make three hit
rolls.

They fire one shot at range and two up close. ???

Yes, that's how Rapid Fire (1) works.

The issue is Volley Fire says "may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, pulse carbines and pulse rifles when shooting at a target within half the weapon’s range." So you only get 1 shot at full range, not 2. The FAQ is suggesting you get 2 shots at full range.

A huge amount of very positive changes for playability purposes. The effect on balance will be interesting to see, but the reduced Ion shield save, higher Castellant cost and eldar psychic power changes all seem eminently sensible.

Tentatively optimistic about these.

Oh I just noticed something fun.


If the models in a unit are so far apart that their full move wont bring them into coherency, they can now no longer move at all.


That's right, they cant pile in, consolidate, or make any kind of movement whatsoever, if they are too strung out.



They also FINALLY clarified what you can do "as if you were" in a certain phase.

What I like about the General Update is that they are actually expressing their intent when describing why something was done or misunderstood.

Love this FAQ.

Can you still rapid fire with DW at half range and use SIA ammo?

Quasistellar wrote:
Sad that they increased the Castellan cost so much. Maybe 50 points, but 100? Ehhhh, you already didn't see them in mono Knights, and now you literally never will. Heck, if anything, they could have just increased the Imperium Castellan by 50 and dropped the cost of the Chaos version by 50 to represent the difference in strength that Relics and Traits provide to the Imperium models.

GW considers stratagems, relics, traits etc 0 points so...

Wayniac wrote:
Well, Lord Disco got a buff if you play Alpha Legion, which is funny because they are probably the least likely to use Daemon Engines...

IMO red corsairs is the best. Advance and charge is huge - ESP when you have an 18" autohit flamer

 Eihnlazer wrote:

They also FINALLY clarified what you can do "as if you were" in a certain phase.

Where are you seeing this?

The Aircraft movement changes should impact Eldar Airwing a bit. Good changes.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Oh I just noticed something fun.


If the models in a unit are so far apart that their full move wont bring them into coherency, they can now no longer move at all.

YEah nice clarification. Note that since you HAD(no "if's". Must. Period) to establish coherency next time you move this was already case really...Just now made obviously clear that if you can't then you can't move.

 Elfric wrote:
Can you still rapid fire with DW at half range and use SIA ammo?

No, because there is no such thing as being able to "rapid fire" in 8th. Last time there was was 2nd edition.

If you meant "Do Rapid Fire weapons still follow the Rapid Fire rules when using SIA?", then the answer is yes, they do.

 Eldarsif wrote:
What I like about the General Update is that they are actually expressing their intent when describing why something was done or misunderstood.

Love this FAQ.

Yep - well reasoned and thoroughly expressed thoughts.

Castellan - Nerfed
Ynnari - Nerfed
Ork Mob Up Lootas - Nerfed
Deathwatch - Nerfed
Fixed Fly Well Enough
Fixed flyer walls
Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat
Fixed instant death powers like Mental Onslaught
Fixed Necron transports slightly so you can use the stratagem to save embarked models from instant death turn 1
Clarified if MWBD sticks to units who then are moved by the VOD relic (It sticks)

God its like i died and went to heaven. I am beyond pleased.

DCannon4Life wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:

They also FINALLY clarified what you can do "as if you were" in a certain phase.

Where are you seeing this?

Its in the BRB FAQ errata. Don't remember which page but its the question and answer part.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Castellan - Nerfed
Ynnari - Nerfed
Ork Mob Up Lootas - Nerfed
Deathwatch - Nerfed
Fixed Fly Well Enough
Fixed flyer walls
Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat
Fixed instant death powers like Mental Onslaught
Fixed Necron transports slightly so you can use the stratagem to save embarked models from instant death turn 1
Clarified if MWBD sticks to units who then are moved by the VOD relic (It sticks)

God its like i died and went to heaven. I am beyond pleased.

This FAQ does seem unreasonably well done.

Seems pretty much everything but Tau and Imperial Soup got a nerf.

Crusader/Smash Captain/Guard or AdMech lists everywhere!! lol.

Except, ironically, maybe Eldar airforce. With Lootaz and Mental Onslaught out, and being somewhat ok with the Doom nerf, it's probably still the only Eldar build that'll survive.

But it's largely the "play Imperium or get out"-FAQ.

Eldar Airforce did get nerfed.

Mono-Craftworlders didn't get nerfed (beyond the Flyer thing) as far as I've seen. Not that they're a huge problem.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Can you still rapid fire with DW at half range and use SIA ammo?

No, because there is no such thing as being able to "rapid fire" in 8th. Last time there was was 2nd edition.

If you meant "Do Rapid Fire weapons still follow the Rapid Fire rules when using SIA?", then the answer is yes, they do.

As long as I can get within half range and fire a boat load of shots combined with SIA thats all i need to know.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see GW still won't back down from the idea that only Marines don't keep fighting using their chapter's doctrines when they crew a vehicle despite every other army getting to fight the way they're supposed to.

I'm never going to stop being salty about this until they fix it. Also taking Bolter Discipline from vehicles was a stupid choice. It finally did something to help Rhinos this edition and made a Land Raider pattern vehicle viable in armies and they took it away instead of addressing why no one really runs those vehicles in the first place. This feels like a case of survivor's bias at work.

I'm actually happy about that one. Yeah my Rhinos won't be blazing 8 bolter shots at 24" anymore, but the intent is that it's a unique fire discipline that marines can have because of their training as warriors, not drivers. Sure, LRCrusacers still have issues, but bolters firing more doesn't really address the it's core issue (which is shared by the other Land Raiders). Honestly bikes still rapid-firing feels off to me, but whatevs, I can imagine some marines with a lot of focus on bike training as a primary role.

The clarification to "as if it were the shooting phase" means that you get lots of re-rolls in overwatch. Give Cawl a nice bonus.

Can't get the BRB update or the Chapter Approved update. If I sort by Recently Updated, it stops at the codecies. Does anyone have a direct link?

This is what I see:
http://prntscr.com/nidq9t

 Eihnlazer wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:

They also FINALLY clarified what you can do "as if you were" in a certain phase.

Where are you seeing this?

Its in the BRB FAQ errata. Don't remember which page but its the question and answer part.

Link? I keep getting the old version. Have cleared my cache.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Seems pretty much everything but Tau and Imperial Soup got a nerf.

Crusader/Smash Captain/Guard or AdMech lists everywhere!! lol.

Except, ironically, maybe Eldar airforce. With Lootaz and Mental Onslaught out, and being somewhat ok with the Doom nerf, it's probably still the only Eldar build that'll survive.

But it's largely the "play Imperium or get out"-FAQ.

Technically Imperial Soup got a nerf as Castellans got a nerf(increased cost and at best 4++).

Next few months are going to be exciting.

 Eldarsif wrote:
What I like about the General Update is that they are actually expressing their intent when describing why something was done or misunderstood.

Love this FAQ.

Wish they did it for the faction FAQs too. Not because am against the changes, but I would like to know why they changed the brotherhood champion the way they did.

Also, where do you see the assassin strat going up to 2 CP. I didn't see anything about the assasins.






This is on page 9 btw:

Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks? A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Also, where do you see the assassin strat going up to 2 CP. I didn't see anything about the assasins.

They released a main summary page of the FAQ that included the major rules changes as well as the 2Cp assassin change and the 100pt increase to the castellan.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Seems pretty much everything but Tau and Imperial Soup got a nerf.

Crusader/Smash Captain/Guard or AdMech lists everywhere!! lol.

Except, ironically, maybe Eldar airforce. With Lootaz and Mental Onslaught out, and being somewhat ok with the Doom nerf, it's probably still the only Eldar build that'll survive.

But it's largely the "play Imperium or get out"-FAQ.

Technically Imperial Soup got a nerf as Castellans got a nerf(increased cost and at best 4++).

Next few months are going to be exciting.

Maybe, probably not, as the general theam of 1k of Guard plus smashcaptain or knight or both is just going to be the same old same old at this point, they may switch from Castellen to crusader, they might stick with castellen and add smash command, but it's still the same powerhouse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Also, where do you see the assassin strat going up to 2 CP. I didn't see anything about the assasins.

They released a main summary page of the FAQ that included the major rules changes as well as the 2Cp assassin change and the 100pt increase to the castellan.

They also changed is so it's all in on a execution force or 1 assasin only.

Karol wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
What I like about the General Update is that they are actually expressing their intent when describing why something was done or misunderstood.

Love this FAQ.

Wish they did it for the faction FAQs too. Not because am against the changes, but I would like to know why they changed the brotherhood champion the way they did.

Hopefully they'll do that more in the future.

Matora wrote:
Can't get the BRB update or the Chapter Approved update. If I sort by Recently Updated, it stops at the codecies. Does anyone have a direct link?

This is what I see:
http://prntscr.com/nidq9t

The website is glitchy as hell. I assume some sort of proxy or caching issue. If I go to https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ and click the 40k button it works for me.

Bharring wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Castellan - Nerfed
Ynnari - Nerfed
Ork Mob Up Lootas - Nerfed
Deathwatch - Nerfed
Fixed Fly Well Enough
Fixed flyer walls
Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat
Fixed instant death powers like Mental Onslaught
Fixed Necron transports slightly so you can use the stratagem to save embarked models from instant death turn 1
Clarified if MWBD sticks to units who then are moved by the VOD relic (It sticks)

God its like i died and went to heaven. I am beyond pleased.

This FAQ does seem unreasonably well done.

Poor standards we have - the FAQ is almost as good as it should have been so we get excited.
Lets keep in mind this FAQ nerfed Land Raiders and did nothing about 4PPM guardsmen.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I don't like the change to Raven Guard strat/similar at all.

That's been a beta rule for quite a while for RG, they just spread the love some.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Seems pretty much everything but Tau and Imperial Soup got a nerf.

... and I read it wrong...

This is a very encouraging FAQ. The amount of explanation from the designer is new and very nice to see. They didn't address all the issues i'd like (Marine infantry still sucks), but it looks like they paid attention to what was winning tournaments.

Yes, happy to see the thought put into the FAQ. Many of the changes were a compromise between positions, and they definitely tried and address the most serious problem spots of the edition. Coupled with the Ynnari nerf, the next year will make for some interesting gaming.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Crusaders are good. They have always been good. Castellan was just OP. I've been saying this all eddition.

So good now its a paperweight.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Matora wrote:
Can't get the BRB update or the Chapter Approved update. If I sort by Recently Updated, it stops at the codecies. Does anyone have a direct link?

This is what I see:
http://prntscr.com/nidq9t

The website is glitchy as hell. I assume some sort of proxy or caching issue. If I go to https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ and click the 40k button it works for me.

Worked when I sorted z-a but not when sorted by a-z or recently updated...

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
This is a very encouraging FAQ. The amount of explanation from the designer is new and very nice to see. They didn't address all the issues i'd like (Marine infantry still sucks), but it looks like they paid attention to what was winning tournaments.

Well except the guardsmen because GW didn't see the value of cheap wounds.
Though atleast with the fly changes they arnt quite the same broken wall.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Castellan - Nerfed
Ynnari - Nerfed
Ork Mob Up Lootas - Nerfed
Deathwatch - Nerfed
Fixed Fly Well Enough
Fixed flyer walls
Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat
Fixed instant death powers like Mental Onslaught
Fixed Necron transports slightly so you can use the stratagem to save embarked models from instant death turn 1
Clarified if MWBD sticks to units who then are moved by the VOD relic (It sticks)

God its like i died and went to heaven. I am beyond pleased.

This FAQ does seem unreasonably well done.

Poor standards we have - the FAQ is almost as good as it should have been so we get excited.
Lets keep in mind this FAQ nerfed Land Raiders and did nothing about 4PPM guardsmen.

GW fixes a dozen things really well. GW doesn't increase a max 10 man unit by 1 point that requires support to function. FAQ is therefore bad.

gave the FAQ a quick read and it looks like it was worth waiting for. This edition just keeps getting better and better with each update

Reemule wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Crusaders are good. They have always been good. Castellan was just OP. I've been saying this all eddition.

So good now its a paperweight.

I play against Admech and a crusader a lot because my best friend is Admech junkie. It is extremely hard to beat that list. It is far from a paperweight. It's a knight you can't kill with 3 big guns that crushes everything but pure melle units with ease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Castellan - Nerfed
Ynnari - Nerfed
Ork Mob Up Lootas - Nerfed
Deathwatch - Nerfed
Fixed Fly Well Enough
Fixed flyer walls
Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat
Fixed instant death powers like Mental Onslaught
Fixed Necron transports slightly so you can use the stratagem to save embarked models from instant death turn 1
Clarified if MWBD sticks to units who then are moved by the VOD relic (It sticks)

God its like i died and went to heaven. I am beyond pleased.

This FAQ does seem unreasonably well done.

Poor standards we have - the FAQ is almost as good as it should have been so we get excited.
Lets keep in mind this FAQ nerfed Land Raiders and did nothing about 4PPM guardsmen.

GW fixes a dozen things really well. GW doesn't increase a max 10 man unit by 1 point that requires support to function. FAQ is therefore bad.

Nah - by GW standards this is masterpiece. It's not bad - it addressed most of the issues in the game. However lots of obvious stuff didn't change...like infantry....or CP in general. LR's obviously don't need to get worse...I am happy with this FAQ.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Castellan - Nerfed
Ynnari - Nerfed
Ork Mob Up Lootas - Nerfed
Deathwatch - Nerfed
Fixed Fly Well Enough
Fixed flyer walls
Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat
Fixed instant death powers like Mental Onslaught
Fixed Necron transports slightly so you can use the stratagem to save embarked models from instant death turn 1
Clarified if MWBD sticks to units who then are moved by the VOD relic (It sticks)

God its like i died and went to heaven. I am beyond pleased.

This FAQ does seem unreasonably well done.

Poor standards we have - the FAQ is almost as good as it should have been so we get excited.
Lets keep in mind this FAQ nerfed Land Raiders and did nothing about 4PPM guardsmen.

Perfection is the enemy of excellence.

It'll need some playtesting to decide if this is, indeed, excellence. But on paper, seems to be.

Whether Guardsmen should be 5ppm or not, it's been fairly clear that it wasn't going to be done. To dismiss everything else as bad because they didn't make one particular hotly-debated change that you want is silly.

As for the LR "nerf", it's hard to consider "Can't doubletap beyond half range with the lightest weapons it carries, on some variants" as a particularly impactful or meaningful part of the FAQ. That said, makes sense. It's a tank firing an array of RapidFire weapons, not a Marine firing their trusty Boltgun.

I'm very disappointed with the fact that they decided that Space Marine tanks don't get bolter drill.

Like, do space marines not use tanks? Why do they even make SM tank models if tanks aren't an important part of the Astartes way of war?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm very disappointed with the fact that they decided that Space Marine tanks don't get bolter drill.

Like, do space marines not use tanks? Why do they even make SM tank models if tanks aren't an important part of the Astartes way of war?

Unfortunately it seems some fluff monkey has decided that marine armies shouldn't use vehicals hence they are writing the rules to make sure no marine player every does.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
This is a very encouraging FAQ. The amount of explanation from the designer is new and very nice to see. They didn't address all the issues i'd like (Marine infantry still sucks), but it looks like they paid attention to what was winning tournaments.

Gotta second this sentiment, explaining why they did things is a breath of fresh air.

It is a random unnecessary consideration. There was 0 need balance wise to do this (astartes bolter with vehicles)...marine vehicles don't even get army traits for no reason. It is obvious someone just doesn't like marines vehicle in the rules house....

Judging by the lack of nerfs to guard - I'd say it's a guard player.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Crusaders are good. They have always been good. Castellan was just OP. I've been saying this all eddition.

So good now its a paperweight.

I play against Admech and a crusader a lot because my best friend is Admech junkie. It is extremely hard to beat that list. It is far from a paperweight. It's a knight you can't kill with 3 big guns that crushes everything but pure melle units with ease.

And maybe in your casual games he will run it for you so you can keep telling yourself how dead hard it is.

The rest of us have moved on to our new Crusader overlords, and you and that other guy over there insisting its still worth it, with that 4 guys that think Centurions are worth it.

Ice_can wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm very disappointed with the fact that they decided that Space Marine tanks don't get bolter drill.

Like, do space marines not use tanks? Why do they even make SM tank models if tanks aren't an important part of the Astartes way of war?

Unfortunately it seems some fluff monkey has decided that marine armies shouldn't use vehicals hence they are writing the rules to make sure no marine player every does.

It did overshadow the point of the rule. If they wanted to make marines better with it then they did, but only marginally against hurricane bolter toting vehicles. Things brings it back even if you don't agree with the decision.

Valkyrie nerf makes it so the only way to get hot-shot lasguns into rapid fire and doctrine triggering range is to walk them up. Ugh. Did they change that one Warlord trait for Harlequins to be consistent, or do they still get to move after disembarking from a moved vehicle?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm very disappointed with the fact that they decided that Space Marine tanks don't get bolter drill.

Like, do space marines not use tanks? Why do they even make SM tank models if tanks aren't an important part of the Astartes way of war?

It's because SM tanks don't fire their bolters any differently to bolters on other tanks. However, their flesh and blood forces (plus their Dreadnoughts, who are more like MCs than Vehicles IMO) do use their bolters differently.

Just because they don't get Bolter Discipline doesn't mean they're any less Astartes.

Finally got it to pop up after sorting and re-sorting! Very glad to see the "as if" clarification.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see GW still won't back down from the idea that only Marines don't keep fighting using their chapter's doctrines when they crew a vehicle despite every other army getting to fight the way they're supposed to.

It seems like GW has no consistent philosophy on traits. Sometimes a subfaction trait applies to vehicles, sometimes vehicles get a different ability from other unit types, and sometimes vehicles get nothing.

Alaitoc has one powerful rule that every unit benefits from, despite it making no sense on things lile hovertanks. Most Guard factions have different infantry and vehicle traits. Legion/Chapter traits don't affect vehicles, dreads aside, at all. I cant see any consistent form of reasoning here.

I'd be happy if they all worked like the Guard's traits did at least. Give us -something- to make vehicles worth taking in a Marine army GW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm very disappointed with the fact that they decided that Space Marine tanks don't get bolter drill.

Like, do space marines not use tanks? Why do they even make SM tank models if tanks aren't an important part of the Astartes way of war?

Unfortunately it seems some fluff monkey has decided that marine armies shouldn't use vehicals hence they are writing the rules to make sure no marine player every does.

It did overshadow the point of the rule. If they wanted to make marines better with it then they did, but only marginally against hurricane bolter toting vehicles. Things brings it back even if you don't agree with the decision.

Ironclads with hurricane bolters still benefit though...LOL

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is a random unnecessary consideration. There was 0 need balance wise to do this (astartes bolter with vehicles)...marine vehicles don't even get army traits for no reason. It is obvious someone just doesn't like marines vehicle in the rules house....

Judging by the lack of nerfs to guard - I'd say it's a guard player.

Marines are supposed to be centered around the use of marine infantry, with vehicles as support. This worked well in past editions where, compared to other factions, their regular dudes were better and more versatile but their tanks were weaker. The lack of vehicle traits makes sense if you see marines as being about fielding marines, with only the occasional support unit. And this would be fine if marines were good, and if soup didn't exist. I don't mind this design philosophy because we need stuff like this to differentiate factions, it just hasn't been well implemented in 8th. If marine units ever get some proper buffs and fixes, then this won't be an issue anymore.

Reemule wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Crusaders are good. They have always been good. Castellan was just OP. I've been saying this all eddition.

So good now its a paperweight.

I play against Admech and a crusader a lot because my best friend is Admech junkie. It is extremely hard to beat that list. It is far from a paperweight. It's a knight you can't kill with 3 big guns that crushes everything but pure melle units with ease.

And maybe in your casual games he will run it for you so you can keep telling yourself how dead hard it is.

The rest of us have moved on to our new Crusader overlords, and you and that other guy over there insisting its still worth it, with that 4 guys that think Centurions are worth it.

I'm happy - now I can can play Castellans in casual games...Got a 100 point nerf.

Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat

Can someone explain this to me? I didn't get what is this about even though I did read the actual text of a change.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is a random unnecessary consideration. There was 0 need balance wise to do this (astartes bolter with vehicles)...marine vehicles don't even get army traits for no reason. It is obvious someone just doesn't like marines vehicle in the rules house....

Judging by the lack of nerfs to guard - I'd say it's a guard player.

Marines are supposed to be centered around the use of marine infantry, with vehicles as support. This worked well in past editions where, compared to other factions, their regular dudes were better and more versatile but their tanks were weaker. The lack of vehicle traits makes sense if you see marines as being about fielding marines, with only the occasional support unit. And this would be fine if marines were good, and if soup didn't exist. I don't mind this design philosophy because we need stuff like this to differentiate factions, it just hasn't been well implemented in 8th. If marine units ever get some proper buffs and fixes, then this won't be an issue anymore.

Well fluf wise...I'm sure a bolter is more effective on a marine rather than mounted on tank. But balance and fluff have nothing to do with each other.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat

Can someone explain this to me? I didn't get what is this about even though I did read the actual text of a change.

I charge your castellan, and those 4 guard units, and this, and that...

...oh no my rhino blew up! I guess I get to disembark and charge you!

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Reemule wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Crusaders are good. They have always been good. Castellan was just OP. I've been saying this all eddition.

So good now its a paperweight.

I play against Admech and a crusader a lot because my best friend is Admech junkie. It is extremely hard to beat that list. It is far from a paperweight. It's a knight you can't kill with 3 big guns that crushes everything but pure melle units with ease.

And maybe in your casual games he will run it for you so you can keep telling yourself how dead hard it is.

The rest of us have moved on to our new Crusader overlords, and you and that other guy over there insisting its still worth it, with that 4 guys that think Centurions are worth it.

I'm happy - now I can can play Castellans in casual games...Got a 100 point nerf.

And you shouldn't lose friends whilst doing so

I charge your castellan, and those 4 guard units, and this, and that...

Nah, that one I do understand.

Something about if you're within "3 of a transport and embarking without actual move action while within "1 of the enemy.

Finally, twin lascannons on Hellforged Contemptors! Took long enough.

 Shadenuat wrote:

I charge your castellan, and those 4 guard units, and this, and that...

Nah, that one I do understand.

Something about if you're within "3 of a transport and embarking without actual move action while within "1 of the enemy.

Essentially there was no rule against embarking into a vehicle in the end of your Movement Phase even if you were in close combat. So if you were in close-combat with enemies, a Chimaera or other transport could zip up - and if your models were all within 3" of the vehicle they could embark, auto-leaving close combat. It was extremely rare, but feasible. With a 3" range to embark you could even rescue "tri-pointed" models who could not otherwise leave combat.

This now eliminates that.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat

Can someone explain this to me? I didn't get what is this about even though I did read the actual text of a change.

If you had a squad in melee in front of a transport. They could "embark" into the transport to leave melee combat since the squad was within 3 inches of a transport, regardless of wrapped models etc Since those models leave the table.

Its a nice little buff for melee forces.

 Shadenuat wrote:

I charge your castellan, and those 4 guard units, and this, and that...

Nah, that one I do understand.

Something about if you're within "3 of a transport and embarking without actual move action while within "1 of the enemy.

If your in combat and you have a transport within three of your guys you could in the movement phase get in the vehical and escape cqc witthout penalty and then just drive off, this is no longer an option.

Don’t need jinx for a castellan that can’t get better than 4+ anyway. Guided skyweavers will still wreck it almost just as much as they could in the doom/jinx days. That’s good news. Flier spam was dumb glad it’s gone. Other than that everything didn’t really change. Love seeing comments of (eldar weren’t a problem anyway) but people for the past week have been complaining of eldar

Skullhammer wrote:
If your in combat and you have a transport within three of your guys you could in the movement phase get in the vehical and escape cqc witthout penalty and then just drive off, this is no longer an option.

I mean, you can fall back and embark, no?

If I’m reading this right LRBTs can now fire twice in overwatch, and if they are Cadian they get to re-rolls ones as well since it’s “count-as” the shooting phase?


Holy emperor...

 Zontarz wrote:
If I’m reading this right LRBTs can now fire twice in overwatch, and if they are Cadian they get to re-rolls ones as well since it’s “count-as” the shooting phase?


Holy emperor...

I might need to go and buy a tank army...

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Don’t need jinx for a castellan that can’t get better than 4+ anyway. Guided skyweavers will still wreck it almost just as much as they could in the doom/jinx days. That’s good news. Flier spam was dumb glad it’s gone. Other than that everything didn’t really change. Love seeing comments of (eldar weren’t a problem anyway) but people for the past week have been complaining of eldar

Doom gave Skyweavers roughly *double* damage - more than Doom gave to any of the non-Haywire weapons. Guide would, theoretically, bump Skyweaver damage by 33%. That's nowhere close.

That said, Skyweavers haven't been a legal target for Guide, so unless the Ynnari change changed that, you still can't Guide them.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
If your in combat and you have a transport within three of your guys you could in the movement phase get in the vehical and escape cqc witthout penalty and then just drive off, this is no longer an option.

I mean, you can fall back and embark, no?

Assuming you could fall out of combat yes. This prevents when you are trapped in it.

Bharring wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Don’t need jinx for a castellan that can’t get better than 4+ anyway. Guided skyweavers will still wreck it almost just as much as they could in the doom/jinx days. That’s good news. Flier spam was dumb glad it’s gone. Other than that everything didn’t really change. Love seeing comments of (eldar weren’t a problem anyway) but people for the past week have been complaining of eldar

Doom gave Skyweavers roughly *double* damage - more than Doom gave to any of the non-Haywire weapons. Guide would, theoretically, bump Skyweaver damage by 33%. That's nowhere close.

That said, Skyweavers haven't been a legal target for Guide, so unless the Ynnari change changed that, you still can't Guide them.

Ah I see. Rather I feel the nerf to castellan and the nerf to doom and jinx balance out. Skyweaver haywire still has its place. And I said guide, but yes I’m ynnari there is a spell like guide for ynnari units. I forget I think ancestors grace? But yeah it’s the same.

tneva82 wrote:
Assuming you could fall out of combat yes. This prevents when you are trapped in it.

Thanks, that's what I assumed, but FAQ wording did not explain that well enough.

 Zontarz wrote:
If I’m reading this right LRBTs can now fire twice in overwatch, and if they are Cadian they get to re-rolls ones as well since it’s “count-as” the shooting phase?

Thought it's other way around - "as if" is just that, "as if", and doesn't count like a real shooting phase?

With all the changes to Deathwatch, have MEQs completely fallen off the competitive charts?

SG

Reemule wrote:
...with that 4 guys that think Centurions are worth it.

Not even the most ardent Centurion supporter is trying to claim that they're worth their points, we just happen to like our Hulkbuster model.

They're in an awkward spot because they have to compete with 60-point Dreadnaughts; to be worth 40 they need to be significantly tougher but that's a fine line to walk, and GW can only reduce the points for the basic guy so far. The closest comparison is probably a 27 point attack bike (T5, W4, 3+) and how many points are move and fire without penalty and ignore cover modifier worth compared to a 12" move on a shooting model? Amd even if Centurions were 30 points they'd still have a problem because their cheapest weapon load is also 30 points.

 Shadenuat wrote:

Fixed Embarking to escape melee combat

Can someone explain this to me? I didn't get what is this about even though I did read the actual text of a change.

Yes, if you trapped an infantry model with your assault unit to avoid getting shot your opponent could have moved up a transport within 3" and the trapped infantry model vanished off the table by Embarking. Your unit then got shot to pieces. Clarified now so that it cannot happen, if the infantry cannot move then they cannot Embark.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Valkyrie nerf makes it so the only way to get hot-shot lasguns into rapid fire and doctrine triggering range is to walk them up. Ugh. Did they change that one Warlord trait for Harlequins to be consistent, or do they still get to move after disembarking from a moved vehicle?

Am I missing something, or can't you also disembark them normally?

Like, fly the valks/transports up turn 1, and disembark with the guys turn 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ServiceGames wrote:
With all the changes to Deathwatch, have MEQs completely fallen off the competitive charts?

SG

No, because evidently guilliguns was the best way to run MEQs before, and I'd assume it is still now?

 ServiceGames wrote:
With all the changes to Deathwatch, have MEQs completely fallen off the competitive charts?

SG

They aren't hugely affected. Mostly their bikes got a lot worse. They are still pretty good though. Vets Deepstrike into range to fire 4 shots most the time anyways. Autobolters are still a great option for DW intercessors. Castellan going up in price and ynnari being squashed is an overall net gain IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Valkyrie nerf makes it so the only way to get hot-shot lasguns into rapid fire and doctrine triggering range is to walk them up. Ugh. Did they change that one Warlord trait for Harlequins to be consistent, or do they still get to move after disembarking from a moved vehicle?

Am I missing something, or can't you also disembark them normally?

Like, fly the valks/transports up turn 1, and disembark with the guys turn 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ServiceGames wrote:
With all the changes to Deathwatch, have MEQs completely fallen off the competitive charts?

SG

No, because evidently guilliguns was the best way to run MEQs before, and I'd assume it is still now?

Gman + Levi dread is so good its hard to compete with that with a marine list.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Valkyrie nerf makes it so the only way to get hot-shot lasguns into rapid fire and doctrine triggering range is to walk them up. Ugh. Did they change that one Warlord trait for Harlequins to be consistent, or do they still get to move after disembarking from a moved vehicle?

Am I missing something, or can't you also disembark them normally?

Like, fly the valks/transports up turn 1, and disembark with the guys
I mean you could, yeah, but does that feel “stormtroopery” to you?
It really kills alpha strike.