Seriously feel bad for GK players this edition... anyone who claims WH40k is even a remotely balanced game are full of gak.
GK players now know how it feels to be the odd man out though, I think that is a valuable perspective to have. Now if only Eldar could spend an edition on the bench...
Eldarain wrote: To bring them down to a balanced power level like the Guard book.
And the guard were in the GK's place for 7th edition. Guard are hardly the most OP mono-codex this edition either, they are actually good now after being a punching bag since 5th, cry harder.
Probably due to the principle behind how a mechanic works. Generally faq and errata have been done to clarify and adhere to specific design principles rather than rebalance.
Probably. Considering they were changing point costs though they could have made some even in plus changes for GK. What if strikes and termintors were 1 point cheaper? But who knows maybe they did it, because just around the corner there is a new GK codex.
nareik wrote: Probably due to the principle behind how a mechanic works. Generally faq and errata have been done to clarify and adhere to specific design principles rather than rebalance.
This. It’s clear they don’t want things to have 2++ saves. They were just caught in the crossfire.
We all know GK was waiting, waiting to destroy all. GW had to hold them down before we all regret not nerfing them. Thank you GW, your foresight is beyond reproach.
Because the people that work at GW are still butt hurt at how OP grey knights were, that's the only logical answer there is. I just hope that when we get an update of models etc. we'll be back on top. I;ve already fallen out of love with my Space Wolves because Primaris are not the army I started collecting (I won't stop collecting them but, they are no longer the army they were, I fething hate Primaris) and the only loyalist Astarted armies I collect are them, Custodes and GK's, they better not feth with my GK's. Like if they make some new armour like Primaris and get rid of GK's armour that we've all known and love I'll be so pissed, GK's terminator armour especially. Such a precarious time for a 40k fan these days. GW only care about new players, they don't care about the people that have made them a successful business, they have no loyalty or appreciation for their fanbase, anyway that's my rant over.
You're right but don't fall out of love with the space wolves. I won't primaris up, as long as they have rules and I can run them I will. Will probably do so even after the crap hits the fan. Primaris are the boredom, at least to me.
They really werent nerf, they just had a couple rules modified to stay in line with others, like Fly and no 2++
No one wants 2++ units, the only other time there is a 2++ is the Archon and his goes away the 1st fail and cant be re-rolled. 2++ is supposed to be extremely rare.
A GK player has no CP to be ++2 around turn 3, which in my expiriance is the same time an archon fails his save. Plus the NDK is a big model, can't hide him with some dudes.
One model per army and you have to use stratagems and psychic powers to pull it off, is imo as rare as an archon with a ++2.
Also while the ++2sv NDK GM maybe resilient the rest of his army is full of dudes that die like meq or teq, but cost 20-40pts per model. Now if GK had ++2 GM and let say stormshields on ever dude, then yes it maybe would be good then. Not sure if too good though, as they would still be very high cost models. DW vets cost as much, and we dont see them dominate other armies.
Ah and GK don't have fly. We have a rule that lets us move as if we had it, but non of the escape and still shot stuff. GW thought we would be too OP I guess, if we had that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: You're right but don't fall out of love with the space wolves. I won't primaris up, as long as they have rules and I can run them I will. Will probably do so even after the crap hits the fan. Primaris are the boredom, at least to me.
I still collect them and wouldn't sell my army but they are no longer the army that I once collected. I've never sold an army to this day and I collect nearly every main faction and a lot of sub factions. You would only ever regret selling an army done the line.
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Amishprn86 wrote: They really werent nerf, they just had a couple rules modified to stay in line with others, like Fly and no 2++
No one wants 2++ units, the only other time there is a 2++ is the Archon and his goes away the 1st fail and cant be re-rolled. 2++ is supposed to be extremely rare.
Yeah but GK's are bottom of the hierarchy even with 2++. I wouldn't mind them getting rid of the 2++ if they gave us buffs in other areas to actually make us good. So yeah it is a complete nerf.
Yea, 2++ gmndk were pretty strong, especially in smaller games. So the nerf is ok, i get that a 2++ is frustrating to play against. The problem is that they didnt give us anything to compensate, zero.
They could at the very least lower the
Cp cost of our 2cp stratagems
stormcraft wrote: Yea, 2++ gmndk were pretty strong, especially in smaller games. So the nerf is ok, i get that a 2++ is frustrating to play against. The problem is that they didnt give us anything to compensate, zero.
They could at the very least lower the
Cp cost of our 2cp stratagems
GK's are an army that needs cheese though, that's the only way we can be competitive now unless they completely change the armies rules. Like Dreadknights in 7th, were OP but they weren't OP in consideration to the whole army, even with cheese it made them sub par. As a GK, Custodes, Deathwatch player you need a few cheese units to make up for the high cost and low model count of elite armies. I mean if you took away Vertus praetors from custodes they would drop in the army ranking like a tonne of bricks.
Karol wrote: A GK player has no CP to be ++2 around turn 3, which in my expiriance is the same time an archon fails his save. Plus the NDK is a big model, can't hide him with some dudes.
One model per army and you have to use stratagems and psychic powers to pull it off, is imo as rare as an archon with a ++2.
Also while the ++2sv NDK GM maybe resilient the rest of his army is full of dudes that die like meq or teq, but cost 20-40pts per model. Now if GK had ++2 GM and let say stormshields on ever dude, then yes it maybe would be good then. Not sure if too good though, as they would still be very high cost models. DW vets cost as much, and we dont see them dominate other armies.
Ah and GK don't have fly. We have a rule that lets us move as if we had it, but non of the escape and still shot stuff. GW thought we would be too OP I guess, if we had that.
Welcome to the problem of a soup world. Having CP batteries available mean that the model can have that CP available, as such it currently needs to be balanced as if it will have that save available for the whole game.
You can no longer design a faction with a cheesey unit or 2 that are balanced by things like cost of the basic troops in the faction because you can avoid that downside with soup. GK are elite and if soup did not exist each unit could be powerful but the army could have low model count. But if you can cherry pick a few powerful units and stick them in a list with 100 guardsman to hold objectives, screen etc it becomes OP. TO some extent this was the issue with 5th edition GK, they book was powerful, but the inclusion of Cotaez and cheap troops put it over the top as you could spam the more expensive powerful units, and pay nothing for your objective campers/required troops. That was removed in 6th-7th and the codex has never been near those heights again.
From a game balance standpoint (as currently designed) soup kills mono-codex balance.
So now we have GK with zero reason to field. Not that they were even competive before...Term cheese and GK don't belong together except maybe "GK are about as far from cheese as our galaxy is from Andromeda"
I have no sympathy for GK loosing the 2++ on the Grand Master Dreadknight, one of the single most frustrating things I've ever had to play against.
On the other hand Grey Knights really do need something, or more likely many somethings, to boost them up because the current power level is pretty aweful for them.
tneva82 wrote: If that GMDK is trouble for you what you plan to do when something actually competive comes along your way?
IT is the 2++ save that is annoying, it doesn't make it unbeatable, but 6th and 7th showed us that people generally don't like dealing with nigh invulnerable units. GK need help but not in the form of 2++ saves
GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"
GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"
This is the problem with Cp and not having abilities inbuilt into an army (I've said this from the start). They've just made it harder to balance a game they already had trouble balancing. I mean it can work and I've seen this stuff work in other games but when they half-arse it like this it was doomed to fail. GW seems to put too much value on CPs and seem to price an army with the imagination they'll bring a CP farm in some sort...
Imateria wrote: I have no sympathy for GK loosing the 2++ on the Grand Master Dreadknight, one of the single most frustrating things I've ever had to play against.
On the other hand Grey Knights really do need something, or more likely many somethings, to boost them up because the current power level is pretty aweful for them.
I've had quite a few things chew through the 2++. I get that GW wants to get away from such stuff, but it was our only gimmick. Everything else is just subpar.
Imateria wrote: I have no sympathy for GK loosing the 2++ on the Grand Master Dreadknight, one of the single most frustrating things I've ever had to play against.
On the other hand Grey Knights really do need something, or more likely many somethings, to boost them up because the current power level is pretty aweful for them.
I've had quite a few things chew through the 2++. I get that GW wants to get away from such stuff, but it was our only gimmick. Everything else is just subpar.
GK are seriously getting crapped on all edition.
I play Orks so a 2++ is something I can only dream of but I really feel if they're going to nerf something that makes something work then they need to substitute it with something else. This is a problem I've always had with GW and their balance (they take away without giving back). Good balancing is about (ironically) balancing the scales... you can't take away a load baring wall from a house and expect it to stand straight without replacing it with something else.
GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"
GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"
GW exec " I see.... squat them then"
GW rules writer "understood sir"
There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.
lolman1c wrote: This is the problem with Cp and not having abilities inbuilt into an army (I've said this from the start). They've just made it harder to balance a game they already had trouble balancing. I mean it can work and I've seen this stuff work in other games but when they half-arse it like this it was doomed to fail. GW seems to put too much value on CPs and seem to price an army with the imagination they'll bring a CP farm in some sort...
Got to get those Guard sales numbers up somehow.
That said some of the FAQ answer and then changes kind of imply either the rules team arn't exactlly all on the same page, or they don't actually play the rules as they wrote them they play them as the intended them to be played.
GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"
GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"
GW exec " I see.... squat them then"
GW rules writer "understood sir"
There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.
my understanding was it is all the primaris genestock was legion specific, so of dubious usefulness to grey knights... that said. "we are just taking some of these new bolters and equipment" seems doable.
GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"
GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"
GW exec " I see.... squat them then"
GW rules writer "understood sir"
There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.
my understanding was it is all the primaris genestock was legion specific, so of dubious usefulness to grey knights... that said. "we are just taking some of these new bolters and equipment" seems doable.
I’m sure Grey Knights could force some tech Priest on Titan to figure their unique geneseed into the mix.
I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.
I’m sure Grey Knights could force some tech Priest on Titan to figure their unique geneseed into the mix.
i mean it took belisarius cawl (the top Tech priest basically) 10k years to perfect the primaris recipe, i doubt some techpriest could quickly/easily modify the recipe for it to work with grey knights, which have a part of the Emperor's geneseed (scpeculation). It would be pretty cool to see update Greyknights primaris but honestly, if you want some you can just use greyknight helmets + arms and stick them on primaris bodies
Smotejob wrote: I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.
I think you are alone in this. I think nearly everyone understood this was a oversight, and not intended.
Smotejob wrote: I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.
Having a 2++ save through a stratagem is not doing something about it. GK are broken at a fundamental level and essentially always have been. Having all the souped up gear on a basic marine chassis just doesn't work out, they are trying too much to be all around threats and it hurts them on the points front. Everyone is a psyker that can teleport, with a storm bolter, and a force weapon, but has 1 wound and a 3+ save.
They worked OK in 5e, when they all could be S5, and have S 5 storn bolters, but even then outside of paladins actual GK were not generally competitive, it was Vehicles and Dreads.
I think for them to work 2 things would need to happen.
1.) NO Soup
2.) GW would need to price same name marine units differently book to book based on how the book functions not on how the unit compares in a vacuum. GK might get cheaper Land Raiders and Terminators (significantly so) as a trade off for having slightly more expensive marine bodies and fewer options but if regular marines are 13 Strikes should probably be 16-17 with all gear. SO you end up with a slightly smaller more elite force, but not so small as to be crippling.
As a general rule ++2 is probably a bad thing, specially if the rest of the army is good. But am not sure that somehow ++2 for GK made the army break the meta. Other armies have a ton of rules that are faction specific, which would be broken for other factions. Yet those are viewed as characterful and important to the game setting.
Maybe GW should just unglue GK from the meq stat line. Even replace and recost the weapons. This way changing GK bolters or psycannons won't mean they have to fix hvy bolters for normal marines.
2++ is a cupcake. Having one unit with 2++ doesn't make the 21 point power armor guys less insanely overcosted.
Im don't think so, specially in the everything else is overcosted situation. This is one model, which still gets killed by mortal wounds spam. People often say play the objective, ignore things you can't kill. Why not do that if you play vs GK, and it is not even that hard considering how few they are of them. As a bonus the ++2 on the NDK master is on a NDK master and not on a warlord titan or castellan.
Martel732 wrote: And make them what? Custodes? There is no design space between S4 T4 and S5 T5. GW doen fethed up.
Why not? why can't custodes be the CEQ with the jetbikes, stormshields, jump packs etc. And GK the CEQ with psychic powers and wierd guns. If there is place for 4 eldar factions and a bucket of marines, there sure is enough space for two custodes stats armies.
Plus it doesn't have to just or only be the dude stats. It can be the stats of their weapons. you know dark reapers, if they were to run around with shuriken catapults would kind of a suck. Maybe GK need their blessed ammo to not be a 2 CP stratagem, but something build in to their weapons.
but there are smarter people then me that probably have better ideas.
Karol wrote: As a general rule ++2 is probably a bad thing, specially if the rest of the army is good. But am not sure that somehow ++2 for GK made the army break the meta. Other armies have a ton of rules that are faction specific, which would be broken for other factions. Yet those are viewed as characterful and important to the game setting.
Maybe GW should just unglue GK from the meq stat line. Even replace and recost the weapons. This way changing GK bolters or psycannons won't mean they have to fix hvy bolters for normal marines.
2++ is a cupcake. Having one unit with 2++ doesn't make the 21 point power armor guys less insanely overcosted.
Im don't think so, specially in the everything else is overcosted situation. This is one model, which still gets killed by mortal wounds spam. People often say play the objective, ignore things you can't kill. Why not do that if you play vs GK, and it is not even that hard considering how few they are of them. As a bonus the ++2 on the NDK master is on a NDK master and not on a warlord titan or castellan.
The issue is soup. It might (and I mean might) be ok in context of pure GK, but when I can add it to a guard army it becomes a problem.
Things need to be viewed in full context of how they will get used. Not doing so is how you end up with things like screamerstar of old. Having a highly random ability that gives you +2 invunerable 66% of the time and -1 33 % of the time, is ok if it is working on a 5++, it gets worse when you add re-roll 1s, worse still when it goes on a 4++, and altogether broken when the 66% bonus becomes 89% of the time because it is now re-rolled.
Martel732 wrote: And make them what? Custodes? There is no design space between S4 T4 and S5 T5. GW done fethed up.
They could model the basic GKT around Paladin Paragons and PAGK as WS 2+ primaris, with army wide shrouding (-1 to hit at 12"+) and more of an emphasis on squad psychic powers and teleportation mobility/shielding.
As i've said before they'd fit in well as a third arm of the talons. Where they don't work is as overequipped tactical marines.
As for changing the stats, I don't think that is needed, I think in a non-soup world making GK termies say 25 points and Strikes 17-18 etc would work fine because they would be good but not broken.
The issue is soup. It might (and I mean might) be ok in context of pure GK, but when I can add it to a guard army it becomes a problem.
Things need to be viewed in full context of how they will get used. Not doing so is how you end up with things like screamerstar of old. Having a highly random ability that gives you +2 invunerable 66% of the time and -1 33 % of the time, is ok if it is working on a 5++, it gets worse when you add re-roll 1s, worse still when it goes on a 4++, and altogether broken when the 66% bonus becomes 89% of the time because it is now re-rolled.
But even with soup it wasn't like GK were winning events left and right. Plus why would anyone added NDK to IG, if pre FAQ for more you could have a castellan or a crusader?
Smotejob wrote: I really think the rules team and and FAQ team are completely different entities and are never on the same page. The rules team understands gk are weak and tried to do something about it. Then the FAQ team comes and makes things worse.
I think you are alone in this. I think nearly everyone understood this was a oversight, and not intended.
False. Someone a couple posts ahead said something similar.
Reemule wrote: Karol, the good news is soon, they will release a new updates, better GK codex for you to be disappointed in.
In that new dex I hope they fix a few things, and give GK a better purpose.
Am not disappinted in the FAQ. a year ago I was, a lot. Right now I was only suprised at the brotherhood champion thing. To a degree his nerf is an actually funny one. When I think that someone working at GW, spent weeks testing brotherhood champions in mono and soup lists, and then decided he is too OP, makes me feel warm inside. I know I shouldn't, this is a nerf, and am sure there are people out there who own a brotherhood champion model of some sort, and he is my faction so the nerf should make me feel sad or angry, but it only makes me feel happy. I don't know why though.
Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.
Yet in their fluff they are described as much better then any marine. Plus GW stats are wonky at best when it goes to describing fluff with rules. You want to tell me that a build like a tank primaris in a full suit of power armour, or a terminator in a heavy duty walking tank, makes sense to have the same strenght as a shirtless human from catachan? Or how same dude that in GK own both power armoured suits and termintors have different wounds, and it can't be explained by armour giving the extra wound, because paladins in the exact same termintor armour have 3 wounds.
My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.
Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.
The issue is soup. It might (and I mean might) be ok in context of pure GK, but when I can add it to a guard army it becomes a problem.
Things need to be viewed in full context of how they will get used. Not doing so is how you end up with things like screamerstar of old. Having a highly random ability that gives you +2 invunerable 66% of the time and -1 33 % of the time, is ok if it is working on a 5++, it gets worse when you add re-roll 1s, worse still when it goes on a 4++, and altogether broken when the 66% bonus becomes 89% of the time because it is now re-rolled.
But even with soup it wasn't like GK were winning events left and right. Plus why would anyone added NDK to IG, if pre FAQ for more you could have a castellan or a crusader?
The 2++ thing is always more about the experience it gives rather than it winning all the time. It also isn't Pre-FAQ. Either way I think they just have a hard "No invul better than a 3++, rule" The soup argument is largely because someone previously said, "Well GK don't have much CP so they will run out and not have a 2++ , and that does not hold true when they can ally guard for Cheap CP.
IN the end some change to their cost/stats is needed, I think cost is the way to go as I cannot really see a realistic stat change that helps them.
Reemule wrote: Karol, the good news is soon, they will release a new updates, better GK codex for you to be disappointed in.
In that new dex I hope they fix a few things, and give GK a better purpose.
Am not disappinted in the FAQ. a year ago I was, a lot. Right now I was only suprised at the brotherhood champion thing. To a degree his nerf is an actually funny one. When I think that someone working at GW, spent weeks testing brotherhood champions in mono and soup lists, and then decided he is too OP, makes me feel warm inside. I know I shouldn't, this is a nerf, and am sure there are people out there who own a brotherhood champion model of some sort, and he is my faction so the nerf should make me feel sad or angry, but it only makes me feel happy. I don't know why though.
Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.
Yet in their fluff they are described as much better then any marine. Plus GW stats are wonky at best when it goes to describing fluff with rules. You want to tell me that a build like a tank primaris in a full suit of power armour, or a terminator in a heavy duty walking tank, makes sense to have the same strenght as a shirtless human from catachan? Or how same dude that in GK own both power armoured suits and termintors have different wounds, and it can't be explained by armour giving the extra wound, because paladins in the exact same termintor armour have 3 wounds.
My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.
Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.
I give you BA and GK in 8th ed as models people can't use. Well, they can use them if they want to lose. At what point is a squatting more intellectually honest?
Don't get me wrong, 2++ is a terrible game mechanic and should be removed. However, the army does need some army wide durability. I actually like to offensive output of my Grey Knight Army. I often shock people with how much damage I do put out. However, my biggest complaint about the army has always been how easy it is to destroy my expensive units. It is a very glass cannon army, without enough cannon to justify the glass.
I rather like the cost per model and want our models to remain the price they are. I like the offensive output of the army. I am just frustrated by how easy it is to kill grey knights. They are an elite army with "the best armory in the Imperium" but they often topple over just slightly more difficult than guardsmen.
I would love to see GW add some army-wide durability to the army. I don't know the best way to make this happen. Psychic powers would be thematic, but marines, in general, should also be more durable than their current state. I would imagine making all marines more durable and then added another psychic table? or giving us a warlord trait that can ignore the rule of 1 for psychic powers?
Honestly, there are many ways to make the grey knights easily playable with just a warlord trait, another psychic power or two and a couple of new strategms. Only if there was a format for such releases.
Smotejob wrote: Don't get me wrong, 2++ is a terrible game mechanic and should be removed. However, the army does need some army wide durability. I actually like to offensive output of my Grey Knight Army. I often shock people with how much damage I do put out. However, my biggest complaint about the army has always been how easy it is to destroy my expensive units. It is a very glass cannon army, without enough cannon to justify the glass.
I rather like the cost per model and want our models to remain the price they are. I like the offensive output of the army. I am just frustrated by how easy it is to kill grey knights. They are an elite army with "the best armory in the Imperium" but they often topple over just slightly more difficult than guardsmen.
I would love to see GW add some army-wide durability to the army. I don't know the best way to make this happen. Psychic powers would be thematic, but marines, in general, should also be more durable than their current state. I would imagine making all marines more durable and then added another psychic table? or giving us a warlord trait that can ignore the rule of 1 for psychic powers?
Honestly, there are many ways to make the grey knights easily playable with just a warlord trait, another psychic power or two and a couple of new strategms. Only if there was a format for such releases.
I"m not shocked. That's why I don't derp my way into double tap/assault range.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. GK should ALL be counted as veterans. They have no scouts. Literally every guy has a suit of Terminator armor in the closet for when he wants it.
Give all infantry +1 attack, buff the special weapons (psycannon with +1 shot, assault, cheaper), give characters full smite, and give them better and more psychic powers.
They'd turn into a psychic version of Deathwatch, which is what they are supposed to be.
My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.
Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.
Tell that to the people who only collected Squats. Or Bretonians. Or Corsairs.
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Ice_can wrote: ...That said some of the FAQ answer and then changes kind of imply either the rules team arn't exactlly all on the same page, or they don't actually play the rules as they wrote them they play them as the intended them to be played.
That's not a GW problem, everybody does that. It's why software firms have separate QA departments, nobody is immune to overlooking problems when they know how something is supposed to work.
I can't say I'm sad about a 2++ being removed from the game.
Frankly, I wish they'd change the DE Archon's Shadowfield. It's a mechanic that no longer makes any sense in the current edition and it really shows.
Regarding Grey Knights, I agree that they need help but the problem IMO is that GW have basically written themselves into a corner with them.
- They want every GK to be decked out with gear and abilities (including a Storm Bolter and Force Weapon apiece, as well as psychic powers), but this makes them very expensive. And if they reduce their cost, then they risk turning them into Space Marines +1 (which was a real problem in previous editions).
- They can't have an extra wound (it would tread on the toes of Primaris marines) or a better save (that's what Terminators are for), so outside of psychic defences they're no harder to kill than ordinary marines.
- They've gradually lost all their support units. GKs uses to just be the elites - a small part of a larger force. It would generally be guardsmen/inquisition forces that would make up a significant chunk of the army and cover the weaknesses of GKs. However, because those have been removed from the GK codex, GK players (not unreasonably) expect to be able to build a list without them. But this effectively means trying to build an entire army around a few specialist units.
In terms of how to fix them, my main suggestions would be:
- Dial down the gear on regular GKs. Maybe take a leaf out of the old Daemon Hunter codex and scale down the weapons for basic marines. It used to be that Nemesis Force Weapons only provided +2S to regular GKs. They weren't power weapons and nor were they force weapons. Terminators got Power Weapon versions (though still not Force Weapons). Only Grand Masters were able to unlock the full effect of them. This seems like something that could be used to lower the cost of many GK units - especially the ones that only have 1 attack apiece. Perhaps there could be a stratagem that improves their weapons for a turn? And sergeants in squads could still have options for full force weapons.
- Put Inquisition back in the codex. They'll at least add a bit more variety and versatility.
(Obviously there's more that needs adjusting, like the Psycannon and other gear. But the above would be my first step to improving GKs.)
Surely the obvious way to fix Grey Knights is to just make them more offensively potent in the psychic phase? That way you don't tread on the feet of any other Marines or the Custodes and GK remain elite, expensive and true to the fluff (i.e. very killy but also prone to dying to the last man)
GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.
Mike712 wrote: GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.
Martel732 wrote: Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.
My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.
Give all GK an extra wound without being primaris. Seems like it would help them get to combat without rocking the boat too much...maybe...
In any case I'm in the camp the GK are mostly fine - the problems I see are in lack of spells and double paying for removed force weapons. Like Ynnari now people need to understand they're a close range melee oriented army.
I strongly suspect the intent wasn't "let's nerf a bad army, lol" but rather "those rules are allowing for an unintended way of playing to occur, let's fix that."
GW exec "so when are we releasing primaris grey knights, we need to move plastic"
GW lore writers and modelers "well you see they are not really like the other chapters, so the community would probably flip out if we made them primaris"
GW exec " I see.... squat them then"
GW rules writer "understood sir"
There is no honest reason why some Grey Knight Master couldn’t teleport to Terra and be like:
“These guys are stronger and even more warp-resistant? Yeah, we are taking some equipment with us.” And then just teleport home.
my understanding was it is all the primaris genestock was legion specific, so of dubious usefulness to grey knights... that said. "we are just taking some of these new bolters and equipment" seems doable.
Exorcists are GK genestock and they Primaris'd just fine.
What makes this whole mess worse is GW apparently stating on record that there wouldn't be Grey Knight Primaris...ever. Which is dumb since you could just upgrade the chapter to Primaris and say they went the route of upgrading and inducting new ones over taking the Indomitus Crusade veterants.
Give all GK an extra wound without being primaris. Seems like it would help them get to combat without rocking the boat too much...maybe...
In any case I'm in the camp the GK are mostly fine - the problems I see are in lack of spells and double paying for removed force weapons. Like Ynnari now people need to understand they're a close range melee oriented army.
high cost slow melee armies in a game where shoting is one uping everything, are never going to work. Specialy when the melee army has 1A per model.
What are or were good melee units in w40k, twice fighting s spears, bilion attack boys, IG buffed up, jetbike custodes. Knights are ok at melee too. Everything melee that is good, ignores some rules , nothing is 1A 20pts and moving at a snails pace. Maybe if GK were super resilient. like -1 to hit stacked with some other defence rules, it could work. Am not sure if there were armies like that in the past.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.
First of all congratulations. I do have a question though, all good armies in the game are build to counter stuff like castellans or crusaders pre FAQ nerf. How did you protect your land raider, when it is less resilient then any of those two ?
- Put Inquisition back in the codex. They'll at least add a bit more variety and versatility.
Wouldn't that just mean that people would play with 3 NDKs, and a swarm of 4 pts inquisitorial guardsmen ? And technically we can do that already just need to take two separate detachments. Not saying having it in one wouldn't be beneficial. For example our store had a 1 detachment event a few weeks ago, so such a combination would be a big boon.
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Breng77 774803 10431374 wrote:
The 2++ thing is always more about the experience it gives rather than it winning all the time. It also isn't Pre-FAQ. Either way I think they just have a hard "No invul better than a 3++, rule" The soup argument is largely because someone previously said, "Well GK don't have much CP so they will run out and not have a 2++ , and that does not hold true when they can ally guard for Cheap CP.
IN the end some change to their cost/stats is needed, I think cost is the way to go as I cannot really see a realistic stat change that helps them.
if GW values the expiriance of playing an army higher then their own rule set, then shouldn't they care for the expiriance of people playing GK armies too? GK even if they do not run out of CP, do not dominate games, they just don't. In big tournaments the best GK players are the only ones who are not making it in to top 32. At the same time playing GK, specially of the mono kind, requires a tournament build for casual games, and even then if the opposing army is of the good kind, but just not tournament build, the game may end up being a real unfun expiriance for the GK player.
I don't think GW is going to lower GK costs, they had multiple occasions to do so, and they only change stuff other marines get changed. Other marines get a drop on HQs, GK get it too. Dreads drop in points, GK drops too. Primaris get cheaper, tought to be you GK no primaris for you. etc
I think it's agreed generally they could use more defensive buffs, more spells and more attacks on the basic mooks.
How's about splitting psychic powers into multiple tress, only affect GK, one based on defense utility which could include a re-roll saves of 1 aura, maybe a 5+++ aura as well. Bump base attacks up or ass some powers to increase attacks for a unit etc.
Basically take their unique points - potent melee weapons and multiple psykers and just give them something to do.
Mike712 wrote: GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.
It's not even optimised, I've just used what (all metal)models I have.
The other variation I've been using takes another squad of 3 paladins, instead of the tech marine and assassin.
It's a load of fun to play, and I've been doing well in a campaign and league with this list or close variations of it.
People try to focus on GK being an beta strike, or alpha strike army (before last years deep strike changes), and I also used to play the 240 stormbolter shots and 2-3 GMNDK deep striking list. But it wssn't a great list, it was mono-dimensional and unfun to play with and against.
My current list is an attrition list, you don't win games till turn 5 or 6, and I find it enjoyable and engaging to play.
Grey Knights just need +1 attack across the board (it's an all-veterans army), a regular Smite on characters and a 18" 1 / 1d3 (11+) Smite on squads. That would make them balanced but not OP. Regular Dreadknight could also get a slight point decrease.
They should be the glasshammer version of Space Marines. Really strong offensive abilities, weak defense.
Removing a bunch of matched play restrictions for specifically the Grey Knights could be an interesting buff to keep them fluffy and elite. Give them a certain number of casts on each spell, let them deepstrike more than 50% of their army (make certain upgrades not count towards the maximum deep strike), or remove the anti-soup restrictions specifically for them. (25% of a detachment can be from any imperial faction) It would take some testing, probably Lawrence from tabletoptactics or some other high skilled player who likes/plays the GK. Edit: The ability to hot swap spells like Deathwatch do SIA could be cool too.
I wad getting caught up on the thread and saw the comment about putting Inquisiyion back into the codex: no. Ain't going to happen and it's a bad idea.
Inquisition is a prime example of the reason why the Imperium should be able to soup. Cramming it into a subpar codex doesn't fix the problems the Inquisition currently has and it doesn't fix the Grey Knights.
I'm all for adding +1A to each PA model, regular smite for characters, drop cost of psychic onslaught to 1CP, remove psybolt ammo as a strat and make it a generic ammo for bolters and stormbolters only which cannot be used with bolter discipline (as SIA for Deathwatch).
Mike712 wrote: GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.
It's not even optimised, I've just used what (all metal)models I have.
The other variation I've been using takes another squad of 3 paladins, instead of the tech marine and assassin.
It's a load of fun to play, and I've been doing well in a campaign and league with this list or close variations of it.
People try to focus on GK being an beta strike, or alpha strike army (before last years deep strike changes), and I also used to play the 240 stormbolter shots and 2-3 GMNDK deep striking list. But it wssn't a great list, it was mono-dimensional and unfun to play with and against.
My current list is an attrition list, you don't win games till turn 5 or 6, and I find it enjoyable and engaging to play.
This is similar to another list making the rounds.
Vanguard Detachment +1CP
+ HQ +
Brother-Captain [9 PL, 112pts]: Hammerhand, Nemesis Force Halberd, Storm Bolter
+ Elites +
Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer
DominayTrix wrote: Removing a bunch of matched play restrictions for specifically the Grey Knights could be an interesting buff to keep them fluffy and elite. Give them a certain number of casts on each spell, let them deepstrike more than 50% of their army (make certain upgrades not count towards the maximum deep strike), or remove the anti-soup restrictions specifically for them. (25% of a detachment can be from any imperial faction) It would take some testing, probably Lawrence from tabletoptactics or some other high skilled player who likes/plays the GK. Edit: The ability to hot swap spells like Deathwatch do SIA could be cool too.
This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey
Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.
The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.
An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.
Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.
Mike712 wrote: GMNDK are junk anyway.
For the same points (almost) you can have a grand master which you can hide behind squads and a Las + Missile venerable dreadnought, which doesn't degrade and has more useful shooting.
This really effects nothing and I'm still winning with my list, now at 5 wins in a row vs not uncompetitive lists.
It's not even optimised, I've just used what (all metal)models I have.
The other variation I've been using takes another squad of 3 paladins, instead of the tech marine and assassin.
It's a load of fun to play, and I've been doing well in a campaign and league with this list or close variations of it.
People try to focus on GK being an beta strike, or alpha strike army (before last years deep strike changes), and I also used to play the 240 stormbolter shots and 2-3 GMNDK deep striking list. But it wssn't a great list, it was mono-dimensional and unfun to play with and against.
My current list is an attrition list, you don't win games till turn 5 or 6, and I find it enjoyable and engaging to play.
This is similar to another list making the rounds.
Vanguard Detachment +1CP
+ HQ +
Brother-Captain [9 PL, 112pts]: Hammerhand, Nemesis Force Halberd, Storm Bolter
+ Elites +
Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer
Yes, it's a cool list, though lacks the cheap screening units of mine and is not as well optimised for the Hammerhand plus fight twice strat combo, for this a large paladin squad is a must in my opinion.. If I was to run pure GK I think 3 units of servitors are a must. You need something to screen out the nastiest of deep strikers. Screening units don't have to be numerous or tough to be the effective. Cullexus assassins are another quality option though, great screens and immovable objective sitters.
I can imagine 3 Apothecaries healing each others wounds would be a pain to deal with.
Characterhammer(sub 10 wound) is definitely the way to go with GK in their current state. And I'm actually really cool with that. It makes your Grey Knights feel like Grey Knights should. Each unit can chew through many squads especially troops and cheap objective sitters alone.
Nym wrote: Grey Knights just need +1 attack across the board (it's an all-veterans army), a regular Smite on characters and a 18" 1 / 1d3 (11+) Smite on squads. That would make them balanced but not OP. Regular Dreadknight could also get a slight point decrease.
They should be the glasshammer version of Space Marines. Really strong offensive abilities, weak defense.
There, I fixed Grey Knights !
Well, I'd prefer to see them being hit from shooting by a malus of -1 due to their ''aegis'' armor.
Nym wrote: Grey Knights just need +1 attack across the board (it's an all-veterans army), a regular Smite on characters and a 18" 1 / 1d3 (11+) Smite on squads. That would make them balanced but not OP. Regular Dreadknight could also get a slight point decrease.
They should be the glasshammer version of Space Marines. Really strong offensive abilities, weak defense.
There, I fixed Grey Knights !
Well, I'd prefer to see them being hit from shooting by a malus of -1 due to their ''aegis'' armor.
Reemule wrote: Karol, the good news is soon, they will release a new updates, better GK codex for you to be disappointed in.
In that new dex I hope they fix a few things, and give GK a better purpose.
Am not disappinted in the FAQ. a year ago I was, a lot. Right now I was only suprised at the brotherhood champion thing. To a degree his nerf is an actually funny one. When I think that someone working at GW, spent weeks testing brotherhood champions in mono and soup lists, and then decided he is too OP, makes me feel warm inside. I know I shouldn't, this is a nerf, and am sure there are people out there who own a brotherhood champion model of some sort, and he is my faction so the nerf should make me feel sad or angry, but it only makes me feel happy. I don't know why though.
Because GK are clearly NOT Custodes. That's why.
Yet in their fluff they are described as much better then any marine. Plus GW stats are wonky at best when it goes to describing fluff with rules. You want to tell me that a build like a tank primaris in a full suit of power armour, or a terminator in a heavy duty walking tank, makes sense to have the same strenght as a shirtless human from catachan? Or how same dude that in GK own both power armoured suits and termintors have different wounds, and it can't be explained by armour giving the extra wound, because paladins in the exact same termintor armour have 3 wounds.
My better idea is to squat expensive, one wound power armor. It doesn't work. See: Death Company.
Only that is 3/5th of all GK models. May as well want to squat them as a whole. Only what are people going to do with their armies then? GW can't leave people with models people can no longer use.
I give you BA and GK in 8th ed as models people can't use. Well, they can use them if they want to lose. At what point is a squatting more intellectually honest?
If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.
Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.
Reemule wrote: Some guy wins a 35 man event with pure GK..
I’ll say.. So? I think the only take away I have from that is.. he is good and lucky?
68 =/= 35
Daedalus81 wrote: Give all GK an extra wound without being primaris. Seems like it would help them get to combat without rocking the boat too much...maybe...
In any case I'm in the camp the GK are mostly fine - the problems I see are in lack of spells and double paying for removed force weapons. Like Ynnari now people need to understand they're a close range melee oriented army.
I'd be tempted to lean towards +1A than +1W, but I do think their stat line needs a tweak.
One area I definitely agree with you on, though, is the need to redo their points structure so that you pay to add the storm bolter and force weapon to the basic GK - then you can cost the special weapons accordingly.
BlaxicanX wrote: Penance for 5th edition. Maybe after one more decade or so of suffering you can be allowed to have a strong army again.
Thank you for the very constructive post.
bullyboy wrote: I'm all for adding +1A to each PA model, regular smite for characters, drop cost of psychic onslaught to 1CP, remove psybolt ammo as a strat and make it a generic ammo for bolters and stormbolters only which cannot be used with bolter discipline (as SIA for Deathwatch).
That would certainly make for an interesting starting point - would you tweak any points costs, or keep them as-is for now?
If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.
Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.
Only if no one "whines" GW is going to decide that people are ok with how bad GK are. They may even phase out the army, which means that people that bought the models wasted their money real bad. And I doubt that GW takes in returns for delivering a failed product.
How do people buy servitors, they are packed 2 per blister, but one has a plasma, this means to get 12 one would have to pay 180$. Are there sold in a big box or something like that?
If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.
Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.
Only if no one "whines" GW is going to decide that people are ok with how bad GK are. They may even phase out the army, which means that people that bought the models wasted their money real bad. And I doubt that GW takes in returns for delivering a failed product.
How do people buy servitors, they are packed 2 per blister, but one has a plasma, this means to get 12 one would have to pay 180$. Are there sold in a big box or something like that?
I really hope they don't phase them out and I don't think they will. If they made them more competitive then more people will buy them. I mean custodes are a very similar army, most people probably play custodes because they are competitive, if they became crap most people will stop playing them like GK's, people like myself that still collect armies no matter their competitiveness are the minority I think. Well I hope so.
The Grey Knights need a special pack of plastic weapon upgrades with rules. Right now, they have 0 infantry anti-tank shooting. ZERO. How about a wide array of wrist mounted weapons, ranging from melta to what we have now, SBs.
_SeeD_ wrote: The Grey Knights need a special pack of plastic weapon upgrades with rules. Right now, they have 0 infantry anti-tank shooting. ZERO. How about a wide array of wrist mounted weapons, ranging from melta to what we have now, SBs.
Well the psycannon should be longer range or D2 - 36" would be handy. As it stands GK pay ~6 points for their force weapon. A psycannon is 8 now, so they're paying 14 for effectively the same thing as an autocannon, but shorter range.
It's very evident that GW wants them to be a close range army, but some of their tools don't match the army.
A nice formation that boosted their attacks and got them into combat more easily would work, too.
Considering their close-combat focus and inability to survive long enough to do their thing, I'm halfway tempted to suggest that maybe T1 Deepstrikes should be the Grey Knight's "thing", and then their costings subsequently balanced around that (if needed).
Also delete that stupid Daemons stratagem, Vengeance for Cadia, and all the faction gut-punch stratagems in general.
_SeeD_ wrote: The Grey Knights need a special pack of plastic weapon upgrades with rules. Right now, they have 0 infantry anti-tank shooting. ZERO. How about a wide array of wrist mounted weapons, ranging from melta to what we have now, SBs.
Yeah and its worse because vehicles and walkers etc. have never been stronger. I want and equivalent Pyrithite spear upgrade for GK's.
If you hate playing your army so much at the minute, you have three options:
A, Stop playing the army until the next rules release which directly affects your army - could be the next Big FAQ, the next CA, or possibly just a WD article, depending on the army (or it could be 9th edition, I guess).
B, Start a new army that you'll be happier playing (this could, depending on your group, mean proxying the new army with your old one in the short term).
C, Drop the game entirely.
Continually whining on here about how bad you have helps no-one, least of all you.
Only if no one "whines" GW is going to decide that people are ok with how bad GK are. They may even phase out the army, which means that people that bought the models wasted their money real bad. And I doubt that GW takes in returns for delivering a failed product.
How do people buy servitors, they are packed 2 per blister, but one has a plasma, this means to get 12 one would have to pay 180$. Are there sold in a big box or something like that?
Note the use of "on here", Karol - Dakka is unlikely to be a platform monitored by GW, so continually complaining about a faction, over and over and over and over, merely irritates other posters and (generally) adds nothing to a discussion.
Especially when it happens in threads which do not directly related to the faction being whined about.
Things like the recent Community Survey, attending events, or sending letters/emails to GW directly are much better feedback channels than bitching on a forum they don't interact on.
As for servitors, I think you've ID'd the only pack currently available from GW. In theory you could kitbash something, maybe with a mix of parts from zombies, AdMech and/or Necrons, but it isn't something I've looked into.
This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey
Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.
The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.
An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.
Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.
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I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.
I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.
This would bring two types of problems, Against non demon armies GK would be just as bad as they are now, maybe worse if GW decided the new ability would cost point. And then against demons giving out -1 anti inv does matter much, when the demon player just pays 2CP and brings the unit back for free as long as it aint a named character.
Note the use of "on here", Karol - Dakka is unlikely to be a platform monitored by GW, so continually complaining about a faction, over and over and over and over, merely irritates other posters and (generally) adds nothing to a discussion.
On the GW facebook they just remove posts asking when they will fix GK or why they nerf them. Or at best the posts get ignored. So where is the place or what is the way to deliver the message to GW? there was a community survery before the last CA and that went horrible for GK. non of the changes reverted that made GK worse, point drops on units other marines got point drops too, but not on the overcosted troops. no stat changes etc.
I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.
This would bring two types of problems, Against non demon armies GK would be just as bad as they are now, maybe worse if GW decided the new ability would cost point. And then against demons giving out -1 anti inv does matter much, when the demon player just pays 2CP and brings the unit back for free as long as it aint a named character.
Note the use of "on here", Karol - Dakka is unlikely to be a platform monitored by GW, so continually complaining about a faction, over and over and over and over, merely irritates other posters and (generally) adds nothing to a discussion.
On the GW facebook they just remove posts asking when they will fix GK or why they nerf them. Or at best the posts get ignored. So where is the place or what is the way to deliver the message to GW? there was a community survery before the last CA and that went horrible for GK. non of the changes reverted that made GK worse, point drops on units other marines got point drops too, but not on the overcosted troops. no stat changes etc.
That is exactly why I listed Daemonic Incursion(The 2cp resurrect strat) as one of the things that needs to be gotten rid of. The upgrade would have to be free for it to matter of course. Every single one of my changes would keep point costs the exact same so GK can keep being elite, but they clearly need buffs to make them feel elite. I also listed a bunch of match play suggestions that should be removed or altered specifically for GK.
This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey
Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.
The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.
An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.
Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.
I really like those suggestions; not game-breaking but would definitely help GK out.
I say just make Psybolt ammo like SIA, and make it an always on option against psychers with a bonus, so +1 to wound against psychers.
Make them be able to deny with a bonus - +2 to deny the witch.
Make their heavy weapons actually heavy. Give them higher strength and shots, and make them high AP. Make the Psylincer a 6 shot S6 ap2 2d weapon. Make the Psycannon a 2 shot S8 ap-4 d6 weapon. Throw flamers in the garbage.
Make them 3d6 charge distance with a 2cp strat, to give them the actual ability to get into CC.
This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey
Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.
The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.
An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.
Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.
-1 to hit for an already competitive codex is an issue. -1 for Grey Knights, not so much. Also with a minimum effective range of 18" all you need to do to mitigate it is move closer. And yes that plays into the GKs hands for sure, but it's not going to break the game, making a few mostly currently terrible GK units -1 to hit. It just stops your stuff being utterly nuked of the board by big guns sitting on the opposite board edge.
I don't see a more viable or thematic, lore friendly way of making GK a little more surviable, and no 2 wounds is not the way to go. The Shrouding has existed in GK lore for as long as GK have been a thing.
I guess the other option would be that it grants the same effect as smoke launchers so provide a +1 cover save, would you feel better about that? Definitely another option.
This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey
Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.
The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.
An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.
Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.
-1 to hit for an already competitive codex is an issue. -1 for Grey Knights, not so much. Also with a minimum effective range of 18" all you need to do to mitigate it is move closer. And yes that plays into the GKs hands for sure, but it's not going to break the game, making a few mostly currently terrible GK units -1 to hit. It just stops your stuff being utterly nuked of the board by big guns sitting on the opposite board edge.
I don't see a more viable or thematic, lore friendly way of making GK a little more surviable, and no 2 wounds is not the way to go. The Shrouding has existed in GK lore for as long as GK have been a thing.
I guess the other option would be that it grants the same effect as smoke launchers so provide a +1 cover save, would you feel better about that? Definitely another option.
I would be happy even with a +2 cover save instead of -1 to hit. You could also instead do +1 cover save and give them a unique buff preventing them from losing their cover save. You could even make it stack with normal cover saves and it will still be better than -1 to hit. Closing the gap is pretty garbage since the BS4+ armies it hits the most are also the ones that die almost instantly in melee. (Tau and Guard) I'd really rather not play orks that also suck at melee.
This is pretty much what I told GW in their recent big survey
Hammerhand, Sanctuary and Psybolt ammo should be unlimited cast psychic powers.
The Shrouding, a -1 to hit 12" bubble for shooting outside 18" should replace purge soul, as a new twist on a 4th ed rule.
An adaptation of another old rule True Grit could allow GK to fire their stormbolters as pistols in mele(instead of just giving them more attacks, make them unique). Cast sanctuary first turn to get them into CC and survive the first round of combat. 2nd round of combat cast Psybolt and pour tons of ST5 AP -1 shooting into CC.
Another rule brought back from 4th The Ageis, would be a 6+ FNP to psychic mortal wounds, paladins and characters could possibly get a 5+.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was with you until you said they should add yet another -1 to hit to the game. Its a terrible toxic mechanic. You pretty much autowin against Tau/MonoGuard lists that aren't hyper optimized and even then its a huge uphill battle while having minimal effect against other armies unless you stack it. They should get rid of -1 to hit, Vengeance of Lost Cadia, Daemonic Incursion, and all the silver bullet type effects. Make Grey Knights good against daemons without having to make them specific for daemons. Something like their bolters give -1 to invuln saves like AP-1 works on armor. It won't do anything to most non-daemons since most things have better armor saves than invluns. Harlequins would be the main collateral damage for the change tho. It does make sense though that the anti-daemon/psyker specialists would also be good against the eldar who worship an Eldar Warp Entity.
-1 to hit for an already competitive codex is an issue. -1 for Grey Knights, not so much. Also with a minimum effective range of 18" all you need to do to mitigate it is move closer. And yes that plays into the GKs hands for sure, but it's not going to break the game, making a few mostly currently terrible GK units -1 to hit. It just stops your stuff being utterly nuked of the board by big guns sitting on the opposite board edge.
I don't see a more viable or thematic, lore friendly way of making GK a little more surviable, and no 2 wounds is not the way to go. The Shrouding has existed in GK lore for as long as GK have been a thing.
I guess the other option would be that it grants the same effect as smoke launchers so provide a +1 cover save, would you feel better about that? Definitely another option.
I would be happy even with a +2 cover save instead of -1 to hit. You could also instead do +1 cover save and give them a unique buff preventing them from losing their cover save. You could even make it stack with normal cover saves and it will still be better than -1 to hit. Closing the gap is pretty garbage since the BS4+ armies it hits the most are also the ones that die almost instantly in melee. (Tau and Guard) I'd really rather not play orks that also suck at melee.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but grey knights have *always* been about that melee life. Their models have always come with melee weapons, and they have always been about short-range firepower?
So I don't see why having a rule that helps you survive when your not in close range is bad?
I don't think the -1 is the issue in the game, bit rather that the mechanic isn't fully implemented like it is in Kill Team. A mechanic that modifies your Ballistic Skill needs ways to gain bonuses to be balanced.
In my less than humble opinion about this the mechanic should look more like:
More than 1/2 weapon's rabge profile: -1 (pistols ignore this)
Standing on a higher elevation: -1
Model in cover: -1
Model does not move: +1 (vehicles, monsters and asaault weapons ignore this)
Model advanced: -1
Character within 6" chooses not to shoot can give +1 to a nearby squad (limit one use per target)
Shooting through an enemy unit: -1
Shooting a character if they aren't the closest model: -1 to hit (stacks with the above)
Remove character protections and let units with the sniper keyword ignore the last two penalties (instead they lose AP from their shot).
AP 6 weapons from the 7th and older should give +1 armour save
AP - should give +2.
Am weapons should improve their rend by 1 if the roll an unmodified wound roll of a 6 to represent hitting a weak point in the armour.
And while we're at it and I am talking changes to the game outside of shooting: moving or charging from an elevated portion (say hills, ruins or other terrain) +1" to move, advance and charge
Give beta bolter rules back to vehicles, but increase the cost of Hurricane Bolters.
Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.
Turn 1 Deep Strike could come back but units have to set up more than 11" away of enemy lines if they arrive the first turn.
Infiltration can also come back, but they should have to start 18" away from the enemy deployment zone.
Plasma, and other weapons that can hurt their bearer, should only do so on an unmodified roll of a 1.
Units being charged can elect to Overwatch, attempt to flee d3" or brace for the charge (counts as having charged for purposes of unit activation)
I admit some of these could use more fine tuning, but the seek to improve the importance of positioning, cover and even reacting to charges in more dynamic ways. Basically I have admit to wanting more strategy in my wargame.
I am thinking about Fielding my small detachment of GK more as I expect Chaos to show up more in the game. And Maybe a Ycarnne or a Avatar. I so dearly want my Draigo to dispatch a Avatar.
Reemule wrote: I am thinking about Fielding my small detachment of GK more as I expect Chaos to show up more in the game. And Maybe a Ycarnne or a Avatar. I so dearly want my Draigo to dispatch a Avatar.
Hey, if Calgar can do it, Draigo should be able to as well.
ClockworkZion wrote: Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.
So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?
ClockworkZion wrote: Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.
So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?
At 2k you're getting 4 a turn if your Warlord is alive and 3 a turn if he's dead. At 1k it goes down to 3 and 2 respecgively. Since it is given at the start of each battle round that means at you start each game with 6-7 CP and generate more as the game goes on.
ClockworkZion wrote: Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.
So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?
At 2k you're getting 4 a turn if your Warlord is alive and 3 a turn if he's dead. At 1k it goes down to 3 and 2 respecgively. Since it is given at the start of each battle round that means at you start each game with 6-7 CP and generate more as the game goes on.
...1 for BF, +1 for the Warlord - with you so far.
But 1 per 1,000,000 points in the army seems a little stingy, don't you think?
I view one of the issues with grey knights is that they should never have attempted to make them a stand alone army. They should have been more like an Assassin type faction that you slot into another IOM army to help deal with psykers and demons. GW essentially put themselves in a corner by not having much room to fix them without making them marines plus one again.
The biggest issue is like most MEQ they end up paying for things that in game end up not mattering.
ClockworkZion wrote: Everyone gets 3 CP if their army is Battle Forged and +1 CP each battle round, with bonuses given for the following: +1 CP if their warlord is alive and +1 CP for every 1000k points in thdr army.
So you never want people to be able to get that third CP per turn, huh?
At 2k you're getting 4 a turn if your Warlord is alive and 3 a turn if he's dead. At 1k it goes down to 3 and 2 respecgively. Since it is given at the start of each battle round that means at you start each game with 6-7 CP and generate more as the game goes on.
...1 for BF, +1 for the Warlord - with you so far.
But 1 per 1,000,000 points in the army seems a little stingy, don't you think?
Sorry, typo from my phone. Each 1,000 points would be 1 CP.
Must be some glitch in the matrix, I thought that was never supposed to happen?
HoundsofDemos wrote: I view one of the issues with grey knights is that they should never have attempted to make them a stand alone army. They should have been more like an Assassin type faction that you slot into another IOM army to help deal with psykers and demons. GW essentially put themselves in a corner by not having much room to fix them without making them marines plus one again.
No matter how many times that 4chan (lying) whine will be repeated, it will never be true. GK were never ""marines plus one"", they were perfectly viable, balanced army with their own strengths and weaknesses that could play anyone in 5th edition as equals. Alas, they were done by competent writer back then, not by that inept hack who destroyed the army by removing 60% of the units and wargear options in 7th edition. Incidentally proving whiners wrong, because most of the changes were their suggestions that were all shown to be wrong, bad and/or unworkable across the board, with not a single suggestion resulting in anything positive.
Really, all GK need is their 5th edition book back, complete will all the options, maybe with some mechanics being updated for 8th edition. Incidentally, these very same mechanics were good for the overall health for the game back then, countering some of the worst offenders (without nerfing them outright), forcing people to rethink their lists, instead of going for brainless top unit spam. If GK had the anti-plasma device at the start of 8th edition, say, we'd see much less annoying plasma spam, more varietly in lists - but we can't have that, because that would make them dreaded 'straw marines plus one', eh?
This is penance for Matt Ward. No, but in all seriousness, I don't think anyone would argue that Grey Knights aren't the bottom of the heap right now, and have been for most of the edition, and this can't have gone unnoticed by our new, more attentive lover Games Workshop. With a lot of the important issues put to rest by this last batch of FAQs, I think it's clear that the state of Grey Knights is now firmly at the forefront. As we've seen from Codex: Chaos Space Marines II, we now know that Games Workshop don't oppose revising codices in this edition. Here's hoping that Codex: Grey Knights is next.
