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General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 03:05:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yes, I know the last one was closed. Perhaps we can try this again with some more facts behind the rants.

Oh, and videos!




I still don't have much of a read on Ruby Rose as an actor. She certainly exudes a strong sense of "rebellious rebel", but I fear that's just her playing herself. She didn't do anything to turn me off her in the recent Arrow/Flash/Supergirl cross-over event, but she didn't do anything to wow me either. This might be one of those things where she grows into the role over time, much like Amel did with the Green Arrow.

Based upon what's in the trailer it seems as though the eventual addition of the vibrant red wig will be Kate's way of making sure people know that she isn't Batman. I believe that this is a clever idea to include something from the comics that, honestly, is kinda goofy, and put it into the show in a way that makes it logical (if perhaps not the first idea she might have gone with). The main point of contention is with the delivery, the "won't let a man take credit for a woman", which rings false both because she is literally stealing Bruce's stuff and it's perfectly natural for people to assume that she's Batman given that that would be the people of Gotham's only frame of reference.

Ultimately I am looking forward to this show as it will add something new to the Arrowverse, especially with Arrow ending with its (very short) 8th Season. The standard, pedestrian, low-hanging-fruit Berlanti-pattern identity politics will be in full swing, much like they are in Supergirl I suspect, but if it's anything like Supergirl it won't get in the way of the show too much (Supergirl's just-finished season is easily it's strongest to date). Berlanti politics, other than being unoriginal and boring (and easily defeated), tend to bring their shows to a grinding halt to deliver that week's Message™. Then the show just carries on as normal. Makes them really easy to ignore. Hopefully that'll continue here (as it'd be asking too much for it not to be part of the show at all). And her being a lesbian is right from the comics. It's a good thing, because it's an intrinsic part of her character but it does not define her as a person. It doesn't come across as tokenistic or cynical pandering (I doubt Ruby Rose would be on board if it were).

Plus the younger Fox is in it, and I believe he becomes Batwing, which is cool.

My only real narrative concern is how this fits in with the rest of the Arrowverse. When we first met Kate she was already established as Batwoman. This is her origin. Is it going to catch up with the rest of the Arrowverse by the time we hit the massive 5-part Crisis on Infinite Earth's cross over event, or are they going to somehow ignore that? One of the catalysts for the Crisis is in Arkham Asylum (Psycho-Pirate, IIRC) by the end of the last cross-over, so they can't just pretend that didn't happen.

Anyway, I'm optimistic.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 03:29:43


Post by: LordofHats


Having read the premise, I feel kind of disappointed. A look through the characters and cast leaves me feeling like I already know how the season will play out because the cliches are so obvious (a defense contractor? Oh yeah, they won't be evil as feth and oh look her parents work there? They won't be evil either). I'd be less pessimistic about that, but the other Arrowverse shows aren't really one to run against type.

I feel kind of perturbed that they wouldn't just do a Batman series since they're going into Gotham and all that. Supergirl had promise, but I got disappointed through the entire first season with how "I swear this was a Superman AS episode" a lot of the show was. Even with a more interesting character than Kara to bank the show on I feel less than enthused. Maybe a bit of Arrowverse fatigue. I haven't enjoyed several of the more recent seasons of any of the shows.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 03:56:37


Post by: greatbigtree


I'm a big ole Batman fanboy. I like to check out anything related to Gotham City.

The thing about Batman not being part of a DC universe, is that I'm just kind of waiting for him to show up. Because Batman doesn't just say, "feth it, I'm out!". He'd have to be dead. And because Batman is the epitome of Human awesomeness, he can't be dead. And since he can't be dead, he can't not be there. And because he can't not be there, why isn't he showing up?

So as a middle-aged white dude, I recognize that this show isn't targeting me as it's primary audience. Which I suppose is ok since I'm the target audience of the rest of the universe. I am happy for diversity, and hopefully this character will inspire some young person that identifies with her, in the same way Batman inspired a young me to be awesome.

My wife is a huge fan of Alice in Wonderland, and if "Alice" is the key antagonist I'll be watching this show, assuming it comes to Netflix. I'd give it a shot. I thought I'd hate Titans after the first two episodes, but now I find it merely distasteful. And I still watched it. Because DC, and Batman was bound to show up...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 06:28:15


Post by: Gael Knight


I mean I can see this appealing to the market of preteen/early teen girls as a kind of edgy show that they watch but that trailer was the most hamfisted attempt at an empowering message I've seen in a while. I'd honestly think it was parody if it wasn't uploaded on their own channel.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 07:29:19


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gael Knight wrote:
... but that trailer was the most hamfisted attempt at an empowering message I've seen in a while...
That's normal for Arrowverse shows though. They've yet to master the arts of subtlety and nuance, so their method of delivering social justice narratives is akin to a certain someone screaming "HODOR!" at everything he sees. You can see it coming, it's always pretty hilarious, and also kinda pathetic and sad.

But, as I said, this bull in a china shop method of presenting these "topics" is why they so rarely interfere with the shows themselves. About the only recent one I can think of, and this is going back to last season of Arrow, was their "gun control" episode, where they attempted to have an honest both-sides conversation about gun control, didn't really have a conversation, and literally ended the episode with Mayor Queen announcing a new gun control compromise that every side was happy with (without actually saying what it was, because of course there isn't one!). It was so wishy washy and terrible.

But that's an exception. Most of the time it's like the last episode of Supergirl, where the main character brings the episode to a halt and almost looks to camera to say "I can't believe the 4th Estate saved America!" (they've been attempting to lionise the news media a lot this season) before we get on with the rest of the far-more-interesting narrative. If it's like that, it won't be anything more than something to laugh at.

And that's fine. Still greatly looking forward to this show and the big 5-episode Crisis event.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 08:20:43


Post by: Ouze


I'm not very familiar with the character - I only really know the Barbara Gordon where she eventually winds up as Oracle. Doesn't look like a very steep learning curve here.

I don't know how to feel about Ruby Rose. I didn't think she was anything special in Orange Is The New Black, but I think she did just fine in John Wick 2... even though she didn't say a word. So, sort of interested, but not excited.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 08:52:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Ouze wrote:
I'm not very familiar with the character - I only really know the Barbara Gordon where she eventually winds up as Oracle. Doesn't look like a very steep learning curve here.
One was Batgirl, the other Batwoman. Both had red hair.

Comics are weird.




General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 09:03:57


Post by: aku-chan


Pity this didn't come out a couple of years ago, would've been really excited, but I barely watch any of the Arrowverse shows now.

Weird that Batmans name hasn't popped up until now though, or is this set on Supergirls world where all these big time heroes totally exist you just never see them?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 15:19:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 aku-chan wrote:
Weird that Batmans name hasn't popped up until now though, or is this set on Supergirls world where all these big time heroes totally exist you just never see them?
Batman's name came up during the last cross-over event (and Bruce Wayne was mentioned way before that).

From the Arrowverse characters Flash 100% thinks Batman is real, and Oliver thinks he's a myth. The presence of Batwoman confirms that Batman exists, and Ollie has to admit he was wrong.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 15:47:05


Post by: Galas


I love how the red hair looks in the comics but here it looks kinda goofy. I believe thats because in the comics she has a smaller mask, and the red hair is IS hair (Or a wig but, his head), and here it looks like the hair is coming from the batman hood.


I don't know.Maybe I'll give it a try, I always liked Batwoman.

Spoiler:


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 17:01:14


Post by: Ouze


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
I'm not very familiar with the character - I only really know the Barbara Gordon where she eventually winds up as Oracle. Doesn't look like a very steep learning curve here.
One was Batgirl, the other Batwoman. Both had red hair.

Comics are weird.


Oh, I see. I knew they were two different people (from the trailer), but didn't realize they were two different heroes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
I love how the red hair looks in the comics but here it looks kinda goofy.


Like I said, I don't know the character, but from a costume design standpoint I think it starts to come out a little too high on the head. I think it would look better if it came out a little further down, like a mullet - then you also don't have the hair blocking the bat ears. It's not a bad costume, but if I were tightening it up, that is what I think would look a little better.

That might be the first time I ever suggested a mullet as a way to improve things.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 18:14:40


Post by: Compel


I was wanting to make a thread about this too but held off on it.

A bit of a spoiler free primer.

Batgirl - Barbara Gordon


This is Barbara Gordon, aka Batgirl. Commissioner Gordon's daughter (sometimes niece). She's famously the character in the Killing Joke that was paralised by the Joker. Afterwards, she became 'Oracle' and a leader/founder of the Birds of Prey. She's a regular in all sorts of media, from the Batman 1966 show, to Batman The Animated Series, to the Arkham computer games to Young Justice to a kind of weird version that was related to Alfred somehow in "Batman and Robin." She's an interesting character, but broadly speaking, isn't related to Batwoman in any significant way. However, it's worth highlighting who she is.


Batwoman - Kathy Kane


This is Batwoman, aka Kathy Kane. She's mostly a 1960-1970's era character, whose main thing was being a superhero to try to get Batman to fall in love with her. Noones really thought too much about her in literally decades, except for a brief revival recently by Grant Morrison (who is known for his love of rather... high... concept.... things) where she met the current and main holder of the Batwoman title, Kate Kane.

Batwoman - Kate Kane


Kate debuted in the '52' comic series in 2006 (I've recently read the audiobook, I would highly recommend, if you can get a hold of it) and was written by one of my favourite comic writers, Greg Rucka, famed for the 'Gotham Central' series.

She's Bruce Wayne's cousin, his mother, Martha (WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?) was the sister of Kate's dad, Jacob.
When she was a kid, her parents were US Military and she grew up in a military family. Until her whole family, except for her dad, was kidnapped by terrorists. Her father led the rescue mission, unfortunately, Kate was the only survivor of the ones kidnapped.
With just Kate and her dad, she threw herself into following her parents footsteps, joining West Point, becoming one of the tops of her class...

Until... (spoiler due to page size)

Spoiler:

Spoiler:


And this completely crushes Kate. She has a plan, she knows what she's going to do in her life. And then its entirely ripped away from her due to "Don't Ask Don't Tell." It CRUSHES her entirely, she goes COMPLETELY off the rails, drink, drugs, everything. - I think there's a comment of, "another spoiled little heiress that's going to end up in a ditch."

Until...

Spoiler:



And that, personally to me, is a great backstory to me, and a great source of a character. As such I am really looking forward to the show.

People sometimes complain that Kate's too much like Batman, and sure, there are (intentional) parallels but Kate is a very different person from Bruce.
For one thing, broadly speaking, she has kind of had a pretty good relationship with her father - EG, he's proud of her choice of resigning from the Military. I *think* in the comics, he even approved of her decision to become Batwoman. However, he isn't an Alfred type, because broadly speaking, in the comics, he's a really pretty duplicitous, well b*stard. But everything he does is for his family and country. Even if, a lot of the times, he decides he knows better than both. - This is again another rich, great character that I'm looking forward to on the show.

Anyway, back to Kate. One of the big differences from Batman is, well, Kate's well, more... human. She's not just grr, rage, grr, vengeance, grr, dead parent, grr... All the time. Even after becoming Batwoman, she like... Tries to have a life, friends, dating, all that sort of things.

It's just, uh...

She... Kind of sucks at it. - Not Peter Parker levels of it, but, yeah, she's a bit of a dumpster fire at it. Which, again, is fun for a character to watch and read about.

In her guise as Batwoman, her sort of philosophy is along the lines of: She wasn't allowed to serve her country in Afghanistan, Iraq or what have you you in the military. So, she's going to fight her war to defend her home. She's more practically minded than Batman - She doesn't have a grand objection to using guns, for example. There's a phrase in a recent comic where she talks about, "9 times out of 10, I agree with Bruce's Number One rule. Then there's the 10th time...."
She is military minded, rules of engagement, that sort of thing and that's really what shapes her focus. Bruce, Bruce is on a crusade, he's fanatical. Kate... This is Kate's career. She's just swapped camoflauge for a batsuit and a bulletproof vest for a batcape.


So, yeah, as you can probably tell from this huge post, I'm very much a big fan of Kate Kane's Batwoman and I'm really looking forward to the show.

---------------

That's not to say I've not got a few concerns about decisions they've made so far and some inferences I've got from the trailer. But yeah, I think I'll talk about them another time....



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 20:23:53


Post by: Galas


But will she become a lesbian vampire here too?

Thats what I want to know.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 20:31:33


Post by: Compel


I'm going to go with "no."

That's generally seen as one of the 'embarrassment all round' things.

Though it did result in a fun joke about it with Zatanna.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 21:57:29


Post by: AduroT


Yeah, in the comics she killed Clayface. He Had made a turn to the good guys and was working as part of Batman’s team until some villains messed with his head and he went out of control. She snipered him with a special anti-Clayface gun. So yeah, definitely less qualms of using guns and lethal force than Batman.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 22:01:33


Post by: LordofHats


I've always seen Batwoman as what you'd get if Huntress and Batman did the Fusion dance. She's got Huntress' methods for the most part mixed with a Batman-lite skill set. At least the modern version of the character.

I'm pretty sure there is an older version of Batwoman from the 50s who got thrown into the comics cause people were accusing Batman and Robin of having homosexual subtext, which makes her reemergence in 2006 as DC's first "openly gay" title heroine kind of hilarious.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 22:10:53


Post by: Compel


Yes, that's the "Kathy Kane" I mentioned in my big giant post of doom.

This is them meeting



NB: I haven't read this comic.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 22:14:29


Post by: Voss


The trailer was bizarrely underwhelming and dull, and shouldn't have been.

The 'message' doesn't even seem empowering (and it really should have), it seems... normal and perfunctory. In a 'Ok, she's female, gay, and has short hair (and none of those facts are any more divisive or intriguing than the others), but you still need a hook and a plot.' Something vaguely resembling emotion would help as well, from literally anyone in the trailer.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 22:27:54


Post by: Compel


The way I see it, Elseworlds Part II was the real trailer.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/21 23:57:57


Post by: Ouze


Compel, thanks for posting that. I now know a lot more than I did before. Pretty cool stuff.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 00:07:10


Post by: Formosa


Well from the trailer it's a solid skip for me at the moment like the rest of the CW DC stuff, far too hammy for me and even arrow sucked after season 3, I've watched the first season of Supergirl and it's meh, watched legends of tomorrow, meh, flash took a massive nose dive after season 1 and that was bad enough.

So batwoman just looks like more of the same bad writing, stories etc. That I've come to expect from CW.

If the trailers get better though I may risk season 1.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 00:07:42


Post by: hotsauceman1


So the Red part of her costume is......so she is recognizable?
Still, Arrowverse has done a good job of putting DC heros that where B listers or even C listers in the spotlight so its likely to be good,
Yeah the Message is there, but with Supergirl tackling more of the Immigrant/ Political pressure I think its fine
Messages and things of that ilk are just gonna have to be something people are gonna have to learn to deal with, we are in that age.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 00:11:52


Post by: epronovost


The casting choice seems good, but from the trailer, the show seems to be very "meh". Not bad, but not good either. It seems to be trying to cash in unto some social justice elements, but it seems more like a marketing gimmick to more then an engaged choice. I don't think Batwoman's gender or sexual orientation were ever more then details and not core characteristic. Social justice themes would be better served by, let say the X-men, Wonder Woman more than a member of the "Bat Family". Still, the show looks decently shot and has some production value. I might try an episode or two.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 00:31:04


Post by: LordofHats


I feel like there's this conflicting dynamic with these things.

One camp thinks the best way to achieve their ideal is actively to engage the subject matter, whether it be sex, race, or whatever. Normalize whatever you're trying to promote or embrace by putting it front and center and exploring its qualities. Jessica Jones' Netflix run is probably a good example of this.

Another thinks the best way to achieve the same ideal, or something roughly similar, is to be more passive. Instead of actively engaging the subject, simply slot it into something where it's just a detail. Normalize it by not making a big deal of it at all. It's just a thing, why make a big deal out of it? Hikaru Sulu being shown with his husband and child in a "blink and you'll miss it" scene in Star Trek Beyond would be a good example of that.

I could see both approaches as having merits, but I think no matter which one you pick you'll have to deal with ranting haters of some type, uncritical supporters of another who aren't helping as much as they think they are, and people in the other camp who think you're being too heavy-handed/too disengaged. You can see this in Black Panther, where there was kind of a small fan war over whether or not the movie coped out on its themes (combined with arguing over what the themes of the movie were).

I think the trailer seems to fall into the latter camp, but it's hard to know how the subject matter will really be handled until the show is out. It is a dull trailer though I think on its face. I guess I might give it a few episodes just out of curiosity to see what way they go.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 00:36:05


Post by: Compel


I think her gender and sexuality is pretty core to who she is as a character, as well as, perhaps to a lesser extent, her religion (she and her father are Jewish, something I note, hasn't been mentioned in the advertising).

But I think, as a character those details are very important to her. - Which, admittedly, might be what you're saying, really. But it is very much a core to who Kate is and is as much of why she fights as Bruce's parents dying is why he fights.



But I do think I see what you're saying, her stories aren't necessarily about her gender or her sexuality, not like the X-Men stories are about racism, or the Green Arrow comics tend to be about social justice.

Broadly speaking, having a big gap in my Batwoman knowledge at the moment, because I'm waiting for "Batwoman by Greg Rucka" to be reprinted, I'd say Batwoman comics tend to be about her relationships with other characters. - I kind of find myself going back to Spider-man as an example again. Like, again I'm wanting to avoid spoilers, but Batwoman's character relationship with Alice is, in some ways, much more closely echoing Spidey's with Norman Osborn.

A Batman similarity would be something like Batman's history with Two-Face, particularly when you look at the recent Batwoman Rebirth run with a foe called the Knife.

That's sort of what, or at least from what I've read, the Batwoman comics are about, personal relationships. Except, perhaps the "Religion of Crime" which was her first major foe but even then, they were personally involved, targeting her.

"The Eighteenth beyond the calling of All Saints, sending his apostle to the land where dwells the lambs of the wise and foolish... Absent its Knight-Protector, the Apostle stakes his bloody claim, devouring the heart of the twice-named daughter of Kane."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 00:42:45


Post by: hotsauceman1


On the Black Panther, Personally I felt its themes that where the most prevalent was"The Past does not define us, We Define us" to me
But Going to the point, I feel as if both approaches have their Strengths and weaknesses
The former being that it does tackle those issues and rubs your noses in it. Like Supergirls recent stink with Alien Immigration and the episode showing just how someone is affected by immigration(I only saw up to episode 5 of season 4 so that is all I know. But you also risk alienating people who dont want that stuff and just want to watch tv.
The Latter being that it does normalize it, but that also, with marginalized groups still facing so many troubles, you just cant "Normalize it" because their experiances are so different from "Normal People" that they cannot be slotted into a role.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 00:53:55


Post by: LordofHats


 Compel wrote:
But I think, as a character those details are very important to her. - Which, admittedly, might be what you're saying, really. But it is very much a core to who Kate is and is as much of why she fights as Bruce's parents dying is why she fights.


Yes. I imagine how much attention particular details of her character matter probably shifts with whoever is writing her at the moment, like most comic characters.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

The former being that it does tackle those issues and rubs your noses in it. Like Supergirls recent stink with Alien Immigration and the episode showing just how someone is affected by immigration(I only saw up to episode 5 of season 4 so that is all I know. But you also risk alienating people who dont want that stuff and just want to watch tv.
The Latter being that it does normalize it, but that also, with marginalized groups still facing so many troubles, you just cant "Normalize it" because their experiances are so different from "Normal People" that they cannot be slotted into a role.


Probably a good way of putting the downsides.

And of course, I can't ignore the third camp which is the stupid people who aren't nearly as clever as they think they are and manage to completely botch the job and it becomes more insulting than anything. The Predator's handling of autism would be my first choice for stand out example, if only because it was recent and particularly egregious. I feel Supergirl sometimes steered into this as well at points in the first and second season (which is part of why I didn't watch the third or fourth).

Let us hope Batwoman doesn't end up that way, cause then no one is going to be happy XD


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 01:22:47


Post by: insaniak


While I get the whole 'wanting to be recognisable' justification, the suit looks infinitely better on her without the wig...


Will be one to check out. While Arrow has certainly been a bit of a mixed bag, it's mostly at least been entertaining, even if some of the actual story arcs have been meh. And will be interesting to see which other characters they introduce along the way.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 06:51:04


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Like I said in the locked post not sure Ms Rose can carry it, then again most of the CW supers had wobbly starts

And whilst they are aimed at different audiences will be interesting to see how another 'mask punchs evil' show stacks up against the deconstruction of Watchman or The Boys


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 23:18:19


Post by: Tannhauser42


I guess my biggest question is, why can't we have a modern day Batman TV series with all these characters in it for a Batman-verse? Why create a show that takes place in Gotham, and then make up some excuse why Batman isn't there? And, just as importantly, if Batman isn't in Gotham, what about Batman's villains? Do the Joker, Riddler, etc. all take the night off with Batman on vacation?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 23:44:36


Post by: Compel


I'd take a guess that it's because DC feel they can't 'afford' to let a Batman live action TV series fail, so they essentially bar it from the possibilities. Better to not have it, than have it be bad.

So the closest you get is like, Gotham...

Even back in the "Smallville" days, Green Arrow in it was supposed to be Batman, but they weren't allowed.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/22 23:56:54


Post by: LordofHats


I can see that, but I look back at Batman and it's like the only real flop of a TV Series that can be attached to his name is Beware the Batman, which was basically only Batman in name and nothing else.

Every other Batman related TV property has been a hit, including "Not Batman the TV Show" (Arrow) which makes me question heavily on what basis they're nervous. Batman is like Star Wars. You could make a mediocre product and people would still watch it, at least for a season or two.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 00:00:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


They have this weird notion that people will be confused by having a TV and a movie Batman.

It's absurd.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 00:00:50


Post by: Compel


I've found that in general, a lot of large companies believe in "Risk Avoidance" strategies, rather than "Risk Management" strategies.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 00:16:18


Post by: LordofHats


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They have this weird notion that people will be confused by having a TV and a movie Batman.

It's absurd.


Especially when I feel like the TV series' have done more to establish the character culturally than any films.

Personally, I think that Batman the Animated Series, Justice League (Animated series), and Batman Beyond were probably the best on screen properties to ever feature the character, and his original Adam West TV run is iconic. Even people who've never seen it know things about it because it's that legendary. That's not to say the movies are bad, lots of them are good and Batman was successful on the big screen before the modern comic hero movie genre really took off, but it seems to me like his TV shows have always been the more successful side of his property. Is that just me?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 00:33:08


Post by: Yodhrin


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They have this weird notion that people will be confused by having a TV and a movie Batman.

It's absurd.


But we can have, like, five fething Jokers at once apparently.

Goddamnit DC.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 02:14:15


Post by: Lance845


It's not just that they think it's confusing to have a tv show and a movie going at the same time. I "know a guy" that works for WB and was helping to put together the DC universe app/streaming thing. Apparently it's just plain hostile there. The comics side with DC itself just wants nothing to do with the video/movie side. They think it takes away their readers and want to keep the medium "pure" or some gak. Meanwhile the movie/tv side basically don't care what the comics or their fans have to say. It's literally a studio at war with itself. If you try to get both sides into a room to plan something they just end up yelling at each other or actively trying to undermine each other. You have to get blind luck involved to have anyone with any respect for the characters to end up in charge of creating any of these shows and then hope to god their WB overlords don't force them to change things to suit the WB standards instead of respecting the comics source (hence why all the WB shows are just soap operas that happen to have super heroes in them).


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 02:17:42


Post by: LordofHats


 Lance845 wrote:
It's not just that they think it's confusing to have a tv show and a movie going at the same time. I "know a guy" that works for WB and was helping to put together the DC universe app/streaming thing. Apparently it's just plain hostile there. The comics side with DC itself just wants nothing to do with the video/movie side. They think it takes away their readers and want to keep the medium "pure" or some gak. Meanwhile the movie/tv side basically don't care what the comics or their fans have to say. It's literally a studio at war with itself. If you try to get both sides into a room to plan something they just end up yelling at each other or actively trying to undermine each other. You have to get blind luck involved to have anyone with any respect for the characters to end up in charge of creating any of these shows and then hope to god their WB overlords don't force them to change things to suit the WB standards instead of respecting the comics source (hence why all the WB shows are just soap operas that happen to have super heroes in them).


You know, I'm usually skeptical of anyone who claims to know a guy, but this would explain so much about everything wrong with the DCEU, and even Zack Snyder's several comments that just reeked of "hates comic books as a medium but makes comic book movies for money." So still skeptical because that's what I do, but this being true just would not shock me at all. It makes too much sense.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 02:22:44


Post by: Lance845


I respect your skepticism.

Wasn't throwing it out there to get anything from it. Just dropping some "I heard this" to explain a lot of what we get.

The FEW good DC movies we get are the ones WB has no faith in so they left the creators alone. Aquaman, Wonderwoman, Shazam. The very moment you put Superman or Batman anywhere near it WB steps in and feths it all up and the DC staff are happy to watch it burn.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 05:12:50


Post by: Ouze


"Can we have a live action Batman show?"

"No, we need to keep the medium pure. You may have an animated Batman vs the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, instead."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 06:42:55


Post by: AduroT


 Ouze wrote:
"Can we have a live action Batman show?"

"No, we need to keep the medium pure. You may have an animated Batman vs the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, instead."


Hey, that movie was great. Stupid, but great.

But yeah, like Titans, where you never saw Bruce Wayne/Batman’s face or heard him speak, despite him having important roles in a couple episodes.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 11:30:39


Post by: Voss


 LordofHats wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They have this weird notion that people will be confused by having a TV and a movie Batman.

It's absurd.


Especially when I feel like the TV series' have done more to establish the character culturally than any films.

Personally, I think that Batman the Animated Series, Justice League (Animated series), and Batman Beyond were probably the best on screen properties to ever feature the character, and his original Adam West TV run is iconic. Even people who've never seen it know things about it because it's that legendary. That's not to say the movies are bad, lots of them are good and Batman was successful on the big screen before the modern comic hero movie genre really took off, but it seems to me like his TV shows have always been the more successful side of his property. Is that just me?


Nope. DCs animation side has all their other stuff beat by miles. It just isn't a contest, especially now that they aren't making them with the shackles of Saturday morning cartoons (though even the animated series did it better than the live stuff). Part of it simply is not having to make the concessions to reality and attempt to make the outfits and powers not look goofy with a normal camera. (Or have everything be dark all the time to hide the flaws)


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 11:57:11


Post by: Gael Knight


especially now that they aren't making them with the shackles of Saturday morning cartoons


Batman TAS was a Saturday morning cartoon. You can hardly call that shackled.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 12:04:05


Post by: =Angel=


 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I guess my biggest question is, why can't we have a modern day Batman TV series with all these characters in it for a Batman-verse? Why create a show that takes place in Gotham, and then make up some excuse why Batman isn't there? And, just as importantly, if Batman isn't in Gotham, what about Batman's villains? Do the Joker, Riddler, etc. all take the night off with Batman on vacation?


People will have expectations for a Batman series:

Tone
When batfleck want punisher with pointy ears there was a jarring disconnect. Tonally, Batman cannot scold people for not being woke enough or enjoy a vibrant youthful social life (beyond the fascade of billionaire Playboy) Other heroes can have much more satisfying friendships and do young people things (Terry McGuinness)

Storylines
When will they get to Robin 1, 2,3? Bane? B-listers have a bit more creative freedom in that respect.

Quality
The quality of writing and special effects matters to a Batman series. People will forgive Arrow having a limited range of trick arrows or low key action. Batman better break through a damn window at some stage (stained glass preferable) and it better look awesome. Cheesy oneliners must be kept to a minimum and Batman must convey intent and emotion through intelligent cinematography rather than Ham. Longwinded moralising and exposition would bring us back to 60's and Adam West.

Actor
Who plays Batman makes or breaks the character. Keaton played a really great intense Wayne but not a great Batman. Val Kilmer had the body but very little personality. People have less expectations for other characters. Di Maggios AquaMan (OUTRAGEOUS) was well received even though his demeanour differed from any previous depiction. People will accept a Strong Grrrrl Batwoman even if the Comics version wasn't like that, far more readily than they'd accept a Strong Grrrrl Wonder Woman (who should be above such things)

Ultimately, what the DC TV-verse has chosen to do is very clever. It allows the creative teams way more freedom than working with characters that exist in the zeitgeist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gael Knight wrote:
especially now that they aren't making them with the shackles of Saturday morning cartoons


Batman TAS was a Saturday morning cartoon. You can hardly call that shackled.



No blood, no explicit death, seedier gotham elements, drugs (beyond comic book venom). I love TAS- but it worked within the confines of its shackles and succeeded despite them. When Batman made joker bleed in ROTJ it was shocking- we had never seen that happen before, in the context of the animated series.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 13:50:25


Post by: Voss


 Gael Knight wrote:
especially now that they aren't making them with the shackles of Saturday morning cartoons


Batman TAS was a Saturday morning cartoon. You can hardly call that shackled.



I can. As Angel said, it succeeded despite those shackles, but they're still evident. Compare the latest Young Justice to even its first two seasons. They went pretty hard on the brutality of superhero fights, and dead bodies. Sometimes to the point of over doing it, honestly, and not doing enough character work.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 14:04:14


Post by: Casualty


Huge fan of the comics, deeply skeptical of the show.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 16:30:38


Post by: Gael Knight


Brutality and violence don't make something great, it's a shortcut for most. Look at the state of Snyder's Batman.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/23 18:45:35


Post by: Casualty


 Gael Knight wrote:
Brutality and violence don't make something great, it's a shortcut for most. Look at the state of Snyder's Batman.


While I 100% agree, the Batwoman character established in the comics has a really interesting streak of brutality that sets her apart - and sometimes at odds - with the rest of the Bat-fam, and it makes for some of her most interesting plots and themes. She does not wrestle with her capacity and need for violence much at all, so much as she negotiates it, which seems like a small difference but makes for a very distinct character. She thinks of herself as a soldier, with rules of engagement - once it's within that framework, she is not squeamish about maiming or killing somebody.

The CW version doesn't seem to intend to explore that at all, and without it, the character is just another generic CW cape.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 04:32:42


Post by: Lance845


We'll see how it goes. Like all CW shows I will watch the first season on netflix or some gak. Then I will probably be disappointed and stop.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 10:39:03


Post by: Voss


 Gael Knight wrote:
Brutality and violence don't make something great, it's a shortcut for most. Look at the state of Snyder's Batman.
no, it doesn't, which is why I never claimed that and in fact suggested they over did it. But they can and do explore a lot of themes that they couldn't in the Saturday morning era. Particularly consequences of actions, and (without spoiling anything) a lot of themes relevant to 2019, rather than pithy lessons from the 60s and 70s, and an odd obsession with the mafia, oh, and also adult relationships where people screw up, compromise and talk about things rather than rom com cliches or progression via kidnappings.

It isn't perfect- in particular, they've got a bad habit of sidelining interesting characters between seasons, and just never bothering to explain some things. (For example, Superboy and Miss Martian are living in some guy's house for....reasons. And he's still there, and never introduced to anyone, despite the parade of new faces). It's all a bit weird.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 11:21:13


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The Animated Series was superb.

It should, by all rights, have been a cheap cash-in on the Burton movies. It should have been a glorified toy commercial.

But it wasn't. It was excellent. It explored the world of Batman as I'd never seen it. Completely gone was the campy, fun nonsense of the live action TV series. And in it's place we got a darker, more lived-in Gotham.

The action was good. The stories were....variable? But when they were good, they were absolutely superb.

And let us not forget, it brought us Harley Quinn as a character!


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 14:13:42


Post by: Gael Knight


Exactly. People making future Bat related media should be forced to watch it. I'd like to see a return of Calendar Girl in some media, pretty relevant tragic villain imo.

Voss wrote:
pithy lessons from the 60s and 70s.


What are you talking about? TAS themes are basically universal.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 14:19:08


Post by: LordofHats


There's also an entire episode that might as well be titled "Consequences of your life choices the episode, guest staring Batman."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 14:32:16


Post by: Voss


 Gael Knight wrote:
Exactly. People making future Bat related media should be forced to watch it. I'd like to see a return of Calendar Girl in some media, pretty relevant tragic villain imo.

Voss wrote:
pithy lessons from the 60s and 70s.


What are you talking about? TAS themes are basically universal.

How....? Batman is the story of a rich man with everything, plus a severe personality disorder and obsession. That's the story of essentially no one, let alone universal.


But I meant batman the animated series is the heavily retro one, right? And he often fights random 'mafia cliche ' goons


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 14:53:29


Post by: LordofHats


Voss wrote:
But I meant batman the animated series is the heavily retro one, right? And he often fights random 'mafia cliche ' goons


The series had a really Detective Noir visual style too it, but honestly I think your confusing the colors for the painting.

BTAS was tackling issues like drugs, gang violence, corruption, and consequence of choice in a way that was unheard of in a kid's cartoon at the time it released. Sure it was kid friendly a lot of the episodes took the form of moral aesops, but there's a lot of depth to it that completely belies its origin as kids cartoon. I'm not sure how most of that is "pithy lessons from the 60s and 70s." Loss, heartbreak, addiction, corruption, and doing all the wrong things for all the right reasons are kind of relevant themes regardless of the decade. That the series wrapped itself in a very 30s and 40s visual style has little to do with its substantive value (especially when visually BTAS was a landmark series in animation, arguably ushering in the next wave of animated television after the era of Transformers and TMNT). I can't think of any cartoon before BTAS that put real effort into humanizing its villains to the point that the hero's victory felt more like a tragic failure of society instead of a conquest of good over evil.

Meanwhile, I feel like Young Justice became mired in teenage melodrama (with lots of character development happening unseen in time skips for some reason...) to the detriment of anything meaningful. Young Justice as much as I like it it's mostly flash without substance from where I see it. It's popcorn entertainment and generally doesn't bother with any themes outside of great dialogue, fun action, and fun. BTAS on the other hand could be downright depressing in showing the falling apart of a man's life because of the choices he made, or the very bitter struggle between Batman and Robin as Bruce tries to convince Dick that becoming him isn't the way to be happy (It's Never Too Late might be one of my favorite episodes of "not quite kid's entertainment" ever).

So I guess maybe to each their own.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 15:25:50


Post by: Formosa


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the mask of the phantasm the only DC movie to get an Oscar??


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 15:31:08


Post by: gorgon


Suicide Squad has an Oscar.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 15:34:08


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gael Knight wrote:
Brutality and violence don't make something great, it's a shortcut for most. Look at the state of Snyder's Batman.

We never really got to see too much of Snyder's Batman beyond BvS thanks to incessant whining from fans, who likely were part of why "Metal" was such a big hit for DC's comics side of things.

We got to see "Snyder's Batman by way of Joss Whedon" in Justice League.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 15:39:17


Post by: Gael Knight


 Formosa wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the mask of the phantasm the only DC movie to get an Oscar??


It was nominated but never won. I think it was out the same year as the Lion King.

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gael Knight wrote:
Brutality and violence don't make something great, it's a shortcut for most. Look at the state of Snyder's Batman.

We never really got to see too much of Snyder's Batman beyond BvS thanks to incessant whining from fans, who likely were part of why "Metal" was such a big hit for DC's comics side of things.

We got to see "Snyder's Batman by way of Joss Whedon" in Justice League.


We have enough to know that Zack is an idiot and doesn't get it. He's an edgy teenager in a mans body.
NSFW




General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 15:46:01


Post by: Kanluwen


If you've been unaware of the fact that some of the damage Batman has done to henchmen and thugs is enough to be lethal over the years and years of "bUt bAtMaN dOeSn'T kiLL!!1!", that's on you.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 15:46:37


Post by: LordofHats


 Formosa wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the mask of the phantasm the only DC movie to get an Oscar??


Mask of the Phantasm never won an Oscar. Mask of the Phantasm was only ever nominated for the Annie Award for best picture, which it lost to The Lion King.

Tim Burton's Batman, the original Superman Movie won Oscars before it though, and The Dark Knight got a few, and another from Suicide Squad.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 15:58:35


Post by: Gael Knight


 Kanluwen wrote:
If you've been unaware of the fact that some of the damage Batman has done to henchmen and thugs is enough to be lethal over the years and years of "bUt bAtMaN dOeSn'T kiLL!!1!", that's on you.


It's just utterly ridiculous over the top violence portrayed by Snyder which takes it from a potential accident to deliberate murder.

But no actually because what separates him from everybody else is that he's not just some guy that kills people, like everybody else. If you struggle to bring that into a "gritty" and "realistic" setting that's the writers problem. If you can't write the character then don't use him.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 17:15:38


Post by: Casualty


 Kanluwen wrote:
If you've been unaware of the fact that some of the damage Batman has done to henchmen and thugs is enough to be lethal over the years and years of "bUt bAtMaN dOeSn'T kiLL!!1!", that's on you.


This is missing the material point.

There is a difference between an unintended but unavoidable casualty, and just straight-up murdering people. Batman is often alluded to as a knight, with the intention of invoking his code of honour. If he has no hesitation about killing his enemies, why not just pack an M4 and be done with it? Proportionate force is something pretty important to almost all versions of the character, discard it and it doesn't just damage Batman, it means Red Hood etc no longer make any sense either.

I honestly think Snyder seems to want to make the Punisher, regardless of what movie he's making. He's a man who huffed the Frank Miller juice a few times too often.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 21:40:54


Post by: Ahtman


Casualty wrote:
Proportionate force is something pretty important to almost all versions of the character


Man just wait until you've read more than two Batman stories; it'll blow your mind.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/24 23:04:44


Post by: Mario


Voss wrote:How....? Batman is the story of a rich man with everything, plus a severe personality disorder and obsession. That's the story of essentially no one, let alone universal.
Technically, Batman is also the story of a furry… maybe some people can relate to that part?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/25 01:57:06


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Kanluwen wrote:
We never really got to see too much of Snyder's Batman beyond BvS thanks to incessant whining from fans...
That's not why we didn't see much of Synder's stuff. The higher ups hated Synder, and were glad to be rid of him.

If you think the whining of a few people online dramatically shaped the outcome of the DCU, then I've got several bridges leading into Gotham that need a new owner.

And there's a massive difference between "Batman routinely cripples people that could cause an earlier death later in life" and "Strafes a line of henchmen with an automatic cannon on his personal aircraft".

Batman doesn't kill.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/26 12:28:27


Post by: AegisGrimm


We jokingly decided last night at a gaming session that Batman is Lawful Evil. Half of the villains in Gotham could have been prevented/stopped with proper funding from Wayne Enterprises (and then they would be inventing things that make Wayne more money), and several more villains simply would not exist in many setting if Batman wasn't there, as he either directly or indirectly made them by his actions or a Wayne Ent. accident. God forbid true philanthropy work, as then you couldn't terrify and beat villains during your night shift, lol.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/26 13:46:33


Post by: greatbigtree


While in jest, Batman exists deliberately outside of law and government. He has no power structure (aside from wealth) and relies instead on his individualism and personal reputation to intimidate his opponents. He is consistently incapable of working as part of a team where all are equal. He can direct others, or he will break off on his own whims to pursue his individual interests. In my opinion, Batman is “Chaotic”.

And while his stock and trade is violence, that violence is used to punish the guilty, protect the innocent, and generally pursue noble ideals. He sacrifices his resources and personal well being for the betterment of others. In my opinion, Batman is “Good”.

Contrasted with Lex Luthor. Lex is often portrayed as pursuing Leadership roles in government and other “organizations”. He often relies on legal defences to keep him out of trouble. He organizes “armies” of underlings to achieve his goals. In my opinion, Lex is “Lawful”.

For simplicity’s sake, I’ll just say that Lex’s motivations are “Evil.” Though an argument for callously selfish (Neutral) could be made.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/26 14:18:32


Post by: Compel


Yeah, as paradoxically as it is, the incredibly rigid, uncompromising Batman is very much 'Chaotic' Good. He holds himself to his standards, and his alone.

In saying that, it's often not touched on and is easily forgotten but, Wayne Enterprises typically does fund all sorts of schemes and treatments for Batman's villains.

Drawing across from various media, most typically Batman the Animated Series.

Bruce Wayne funds Victor Fries' lab in Arkham for his investigations into the treatments for his wifes condition.

Bruce Wayne funds therapy for Harvey Dent. And, eventually, medical fees.

Wayne Enterprises funded and supported Arnold Wesker (The Ventriloquists) journey back to society, even, eventually providing him a job in the Wayne Enterprises mail office.

He has long been funding work for a cure and treatment for Boris Karlo, aka Clayface. As well as Lady Clayface.

Sure, there are some people who cannot be helped, but, broadly speaking, Batman and Bruce Wayne try absolutely everything they can. It's people projecting their own cynicism onto the character, that they can't let themselves believe that even a fictional character can be genuinely good. And, to be honest, I kind of feel sorry for them.

A little.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/26 15:00:20


Post by: Lance845


Lawful doesn't have to be the law. It can be following a strict personal code. One that is defined enough that you could write it down on a piece of a paper.

Batmans code.

-No guns.
-Don't kill.
-No substance abuse (alcohol)
-Rehabilitation (I know, he breaks peoples limbs and gak. But he does fund arkham because he DOES want them to get help. hes just uses fear and terror to do his side of it.)


You can make the arguments you do for chaotic. But I would argue his strict personal codes makes him firmly lawful.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/26 16:38:38


Post by: AegisGrimm


And lawful or not, he's probably lawful neutral at best if we are jesting. Especially in modern movie form.

This is the guy who has contingency plans against EVERY other member of the justice league, "just in case" (although how you prepare for the 345 different ways Barry Allen will inevitably screw up the timeline is beyond me)

Batwoman is really just a more guns-free version of Batman. It's not that she's crazy, just MORE crazy. But it's true that this series will definitely highlight a glaring lack of Batman. Even Smallville hinted at a soon to go Batman Bruce Wayne existing, even if it never played out in the show.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/26 17:58:13


Post by: Casualty


 AegisGrimm wrote:
And lawful or not, he's probably lawful neutral at best if we are jesting. Especially in modern movie form.

This is the guy who has contingency plans against EVERY other member of the justice league, "just in case" (although how you prepare for the 345 different ways Barry Allen will inevitably screw up the timeline is beyond me)

Batwoman is really just a more guns-free version of Batman. It's not that she's crazy, just MORE crazy. But it's true that this series will definitely highlight a glaring lack of Batman. Even Smallville hinted at a soon to go Batman Bruce Wayne existing, even if it never played out in the show.


Iirc the Batwoman revival in the comics happened at a time when he was "missing", so I think there's a good possibility they'll just wave it away like that.

I wouldn't call Batwoman crazy at all though. Indeed she's one of the few heroes with a roughly functional personal/sex life outside of her Bat-persona, and she's cognisant enough of the strain of what she does to have a therapist.

She is far less ironclad than he is on the no-killing/no-guns rule though, across mediums. Future Kate carries a rifle, the animated version has to be convinced to *stop* using them, she straight up shot Bruce by accident, and she shot Clayface.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/05/26 18:15:55


Post by: Compel


Yeah, Kate Kane showed up as a result of the 'Infinite Crisis' - Bruce's paranoia created "Brother Eye" - which went more than a little bit Skynet, resulting in the deaths of thousands of people.

Blaming himself, Bruce decided that he could no longer trust his own judgement and essentially went Walkabout in an attempt to find himself again.

Wonder Woman was similarly going through a crisis of faith and joined him on the journey. Meanwhile, Superman had burned out his powers and was stuck, trapped on the sidelines as Clark Kent.

So "52" refers to the year the Big Three were missing.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/07 09:47:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The pilot has aired and it was better than I thought it was going to be. It was very, very Arrow pilot in the droning narration, but at the very least they had the sense to make the narration exist in universe as Kate writing to Bruce about what was going on (Arrow was just him narrating as he had no other characters to talk to).

Overall I think it sets things up pretty well, and we've got some interesting characters (the step-sister ending up as not a vapid socialite is a nice touch). Pacing issues are pretty standard - it's a pilot! - so it'll take some time for things to find the right rhythm. Not every pilot can hit the ground running (like Flash did - no pun intended). And as dull as live triangles tend to me, it's rare that you come across the gay woman hiding in a straight relationship plotline. It's almost always the gay guy pretending to be straight.

No overwhelming Berlanti-isms, yet, even if the Westpoint stuff does make me think of the Equal Rights song from Pop Star, especially the bit with Ringo Starr at the end.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/07 21:09:46


Post by: Bran Dawri


@ greatbigtree: I can actually sympathize with Luthor's motivations ("a superhuman savior will not advance humanity"). It's his methods that make him evil, as well as a case study in "the end does not justify the means".


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/07 22:08:22


Post by: Elbows





General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/08 08:48:50


Post by: =Angel=


There's a certain amount of buy in for fantasy and superhero books.
If you cannot suspend disbelief enough to accept that light from our sun allows an alien (who looks just like us) to fly without any visible propulsion, you can't enjoy the story as written.

If you cannot suspend disbelief enough to accept that a man has trained in martial arts enough to just subdue his opponents, not kill them, you can't enjoy the story as written.

Imagining morgues filled with goons dressed in questionmarks and clownsuits is no way to proceed when reading about a guy whose central theme is he doesn't kill.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/08 09:11:54


Post by: Compel


I took it more as a general commentary on the Batman movies in general.

"I have one rule, I don't kill."

*Kills someone in almost every movie.*

Spoiler:

Batman 1989 - Soooo many people with Batwing and Batmobile machine guns
Batman Returns - Explodes a Clown in the sewer
Batman Forever - Responsible for Two Face falling to his death
Batman & Robin - I think he might be fine on this one, I can't stomach watching it again to make sure.

Batman Begins - Burned down a house, doesn't look like everyone survived. 'I don't have to kill you, but I don't have to save you' - Literally responsible for destroying the train, you killed him Bruce. Don't get technical.

The Dark Knight - The whole plot of the movie amounted to manipulating a situation to where Bruce has to kill Two Face, which he obligatory does.

The Dark Knight Rises - Bruce totally kills Talia, no question.

BVS - So, so, so many people
Suicide Squad - Hey, he doesn't kill anyone in this one!
Justice League - Do zombie insects count as people?



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/09 10:05:51


Post by: AduroT


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The pilot has aired and it was better than I thought it was going to be. It was very, very Arrow pilot in the droning narration, but at the very least they had the sense to make the narration exist in universe as Kate writing to Bruce about what was going on (Arrow was just him narrating as he had no other characters to talk to).

Overall I think it sets things up pretty well, and we've got some interesting characters (the step-sister ending up as not a vapid socialite is a nice touch). Pacing issues are pretty standard - it's a pilot! - so it'll take some time for things to find the right rhythm. Not every pilot can hit the ground running (like Flash did - no pun intended). And as dull as live triangles tend to me, it's rare that you come across the gay woman hiding in a straight relationship plotline. It's almost always the gay guy pretending to be straight.

No overwhelming Berlanti-isms, yet, even if the Westpoint stuff does make me think of the Equal Rights song from Pop Star, especially the bit with Ringo Starr at the end.


For the record we don’t yet know if she’s gay pretending to be straight, she could simply be bi.

Random thing from the show that bothers me. Using switchblades as throwing knives. I don’t think that really works.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/09 10:44:23


Post by: SeanDrake


 AduroT wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The pilot has aired and it was better than I thought it was going to be. It was very, very Arrow pilot in the droning narration, but at the very least they had the sense to make the narration exist in universe as Kate writing to Bruce about what was going on (Arrow was just him narrating as he had no other characters to talk to).

Overall I think it sets things up pretty well, and we've got some interesting characters (the step-sister ending up as not a vapid socialite is a nice touch). Pacing issues are pretty standard - it's a pilot! - so it'll take some time for things to find the right rhythm. Not every pilot can hit the ground running (like Flash did - no pun intended). And as dull as live triangles tend to me, it's rare that you come across the gay woman hiding in a straight relationship plotline. It's almost always the gay guy pretending to be straight.

No overwhelming Berlanti-isms, yet, even if the Westpoint stuff does make me think of the Equal Rights song from Pop Star, especially the bit with Ringo Starr at the end.


For the record we don’t yet know if she’s gay pretending to be straight, she could simply be bi.

Random thing from the show that bothers me. Using switchblades as throwing knives. I don’t think that really works.


If you practice you can throw more or less any knife it's just harder/less effective.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/10 03:37:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


And speaking of the Arrowverse:



Hope that worked.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/10 04:03:17


Post by: Voss


Bran Dawri wrote:
@ greatbigtree: I can actually sympathize with Luthor's motivations ("a superhuman savior will not advance humanity"). It's his methods that make him evil, as well as a case study in "the end does not justify the means".


Well, its usually that he's off doing evil things for his own wealth and interests that harm or kill other people. Its not really end justifies the means- that would mean he's ruining hundreds of lives to save a million, not ruining hundreds of lives to make himself a million dollars.
That he happens on a philosophical point about the dangers of relying on a single super-powered individual is mostly just unrelated coincidence.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/10 08:13:37


Post by: Compel


"if you wanted to save the world, Lex, you could have done it years ago."

"I... Know..."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/10 09:35:44


Post by: AduroT


I really liked the super hero Lex they did for awhile here recentish in the comics after Superman died.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/10 20:11:52


Post by: Souleater


I quite enjoyed it. I have certainly seen worse comic book show pilots.

I did think it was odd that she didn't get Fox is make her a new suit - women in both military and police forces have run into problem when forced to try using 'made for men but just smaller' body armour.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/10 22:16:48


Post by: Yodhrin


 Souleater wrote:
I quite enjoyed it. I have certainly seen worse comic book show pilots.

I did think it was odd that she didn't get Fox is make her a new suit - women in both military and police forces have run into problem when forced to try using 'made for men but just smaller' body armour.


Well, the quick mod-job he did on the old batsuit she found won't be sticking around given she still has to get the hair & other bits & bobs to have the "proper" Batwoman look, so either Fox will do even more work to make it fit her better or he'll do a new one from scratch in subsequent episodes.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/11 09:20:20


Post by: Elemental


 Compel wrote:
Yeah, as paradoxically as it is, the incredibly rigid, uncompromising Batman is very much 'Chaotic' Good. He holds himself to his standards, and his alone.

In saying that, it's often not touched on and is easily forgotten but, Wayne Enterprises typically does fund all sorts of schemes and treatments for Batman's villains.


This. The reason Batman can't make any sort of lasting change in the world is because he's a long-running comics character, and nothing else.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/16 18:24:52


Post by: Compel


So, I just contacted Sky and they've confirmed to me that they, or indeed, no UK broadcaster, have been granted the rights to air Batwoman. Yet, at least.

WTF... I mean, really, WTF?!


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/18 17:55:28


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Compel wrote:
So, I just contacted Sky and they've confirmed to me that they, or indeed, no UK broadcaster, have been granted the rights to air Batwoman. Yet, at least.

WTF... I mean, really, WTF?!
"Hello, I am Mr Joe CEO."
"Why hello there Mr Joe CEO, would you like to buy our Unprofitator 3000? Just put $200,000,000 into the machine and you'll get $5 back."

Broadcast executives should (in theory) be good at business and be able to recognise an unprofitable stinker when they see it. Why would anyone waste money on the rights to a show that will never make them a profit for doing so?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/18 21:22:55


Post by: JohnnyHell


It’s a popular character with a popular actress as part of a popular shared universe. I know of your political leanings and the kind of other places you post, BCB, but even you can see through your political filter to see this isn’t a born stinker, surely... inbuilt audience is inbuilt.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/18 21:47:33


Post by: Compel


Plus, it's not that companies aren't wanting to BUY it (for one thing, the chaos it will cause with Crisis on Infinite Earths alone, would mean that Sky would want to put in at least a low bid).

It's that CW/WB aren't selling it. - They're not even making the attempt.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/18 22:14:29


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Compel wrote:
Plus, it's not that companies aren't wanting to BUY it (for one thing, the chaos it will cause with Crisis on Infinite Earths alone, would mean that Sky would want to put in at least a low bid).

It's that CW/WB aren't selling it. - They're not even making the attempt.
Because it's almost certainly an attempt at a The Producers style write-off.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/19 08:18:47


Post by: Yodhrin


 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s a popular character with a popular actress as part of a popular shared universe. I know of your political leanings and the kind of other places you post, BCB, but even you can see through your political filter to see this isn’t a born stinker, surely... inbuilt audience is inbuilt.


Yup. Also as someone not in the built-in audience I was pleasantly surprised by the first couple of episodes - the marketing had led me to expect we were going to get something in the style of the worst episodes of Supergirl, which were basically "Vote Hillary/boys are dumb and stinky", but as of yet there's been none of that. I'm more interested in seeing where Batwoman goes than I am in whatever Canaries/future timeline kids brought back to present day mutant show is born out of Arrow's final season for sure.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/19 16:22:07


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s a popular character...
I dunno if I'd go that far.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
... with a popular actress...
Definitely wouldn't say that.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
... as part of a popular shared universe.
One out'a three ain't bad.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/23 23:06:22


Post by: JohnnyHell


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s a popular character...
I dunno if I'd go that far.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
... with a popular actress...
Definitely wouldn't say that.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
... as part of a popular shared universe.
One out'a three ain't bad.


Aw bless your agenda is showing. Ruby Rose was the breakout star (arf) of OITNB and has 14.3m followers on Instagram if you need a quick popularity check. The Batwoman comics run by JH Williams III was acclaimed and successful, and seems to be the template borrowed for the show. If you’re gonna snark at least try and do it by backing it up, eh?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/23 23:47:17


Post by: Compel


As far as I know, every run of Batwoman since her introduction in '52' has been well received, even if perhaps a little underrated. - With the exception of, I think it was the latter half of the New52 series, where it was basically torpedoed by editorial mandate.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/23 23:58:03


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 JohnnyHell wrote:
Aw bless your agenda is showing.
You know what happens when you assume...

Hell, and to think I'm one of the people who actually really likes this show.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ruby Rose was the breakout star (arf) of OITNB and has 14.3m followers on Instagram if you need a quick popularity check.
*bursts out laughing* Oh! Look at her Instagram! The real measure of fame.

Seriously dude, I'm Australian. We know about Ruby Rose because she's famous for being in a few minor roles and dating one half of a pair of twin singers from my country. She's not a big star, and most of the people I've seen commenting on her work don't rate her as a particularly good actor.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Batwoman comics run by JH Williams III was acclaimed and successful, and seems to be the template borrowed for the show.
And yet, if you asked most people who Batwoman was, they'd probably say "Don't you mean Batgirl?", or, failing that, "There's a Batwoman? Since when?".

Batwoman has a TV show because WB relented, but wouldn't let them had Batman or Batgirl. It's the best they could get with the backwards way WB/DC handles their various characters in different mediums.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you’re gonna snark at least try and do it by backing it up, eh?
If by "backing it up" means quoting Instagram numbers, then I'm really not the one that needs to try harder.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 01:29:48


Post by: AegisGrimm


I'm eager for Batwoman to get more violent as the season goes on, as so far it's slogging through a bunch of formulaic world building, with a couple of very quick fight scenes.

It's interesting for a non-comic reader like me to see what other characters might be in the show's particular universe, though, as Wonder Woman is mentioned in the first show? Does that mean there are other Justice League members in her universe, or are they just fictional characters rather then real superheroes? How will she react to the Flash showing up if she already knows of Wonder Woman?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 01:53:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 AegisGrimm wrote:
I'm eager for Batwoman to get more violent as the season goes on, as so far it's slogging through a bunch of formulaic world building, with a couple of very quick fight scenes.
That's the annoying thing about the show. It's interesting, but we kinda want it to hurry up and get further in.

Kate had been Batwoman for a while when we first met her in Elseworlds, so I'm trying to figure out when Elseworlds was set compared to when she becomes Batwoman.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It's interesting for a non-comic reader like me to see what other characters might be in the show's particular universe, though, as Wonder Woman is mentioned in the first show? Does that mean there are other Justice League members in her universe, or are they just fictional characters rather then real superheroes? How will she react to the Flash showing up if she already knows of Wonder Woman?
Well she's already met the Flash.

This is Earth-1, so she's coming into this in a world where we already have the Flash, Green Arrow and a few others. Wonder Woman should exist, and not just because of that throwaway line but because the Legends take Helen of Troy to Themyscira so she can live out her life among the warriors though (long story...), so we know it exists.

There's no Justice League on Earth-1 though, likely because Kal El never came to Earth in this version of history (unlike Earth 38 which has both Superman and Batman).


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 07:46:42


Post by: JohnnyHell


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Aw bless your agenda is showing.
You know what happens when you assume...

Hell, and to think I'm one of the people who actually really likes this show.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ruby Rose was the breakout star (arf) of OITNB and has 14.3m followers on Instagram if you need a quick popularity check.
*bursts out laughing* Oh! Look at her Instagram! The real measure of fame.

Seriously dude, I'm Australian. We know about Ruby Rose because she's famous for being in a few minor roles and dating one half of a pair of twin singers from my country. She's not a big star, and most of the people I've seen commenting on her work don't rate her as a particularly good actor.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Batwoman comics run by JH Williams III was acclaimed and successful, and seems to be the template borrowed for the show.
And yet, if you asked most people who Batwoman was, they'd probably say "Don't you mean Batgirl?", or, failing that, "There's a Batwoman? Since when?".

Batwoman has a TV show because WB relented, but wouldn't let them had Batman or Batgirl. It's the best they could get with the backwards way WB/DC handles their various characters in different mediums.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you’re gonna snark at least try and do it by backing it up, eh?
If by "backing it up" means quoting Instagram numbers, then I'm really not the one that needs to try harder.



Hey, if you make an edgy hot take riposte and it doesn’t resemble reality that’s on you not me. You called what I posted rubbish when it wasn’t. Apologies for assuming your intent here... but let’s not be so pithy without any backup eh? Have a great day.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 18:28:01


Post by: Compel


If they do Crisis on Infinite Earths right, hopefully by the end of the crossover, there at least have officially stated forming the Justice League.

Of course, I've not seen Batwoman yet (because WB are being jerks to the UK) but, broadly speaking, Wonder Woman should NOT be an active hero on Earth-1. However, like someone mentioned, Themyscira and the Amazons IS confirmed to have existed on the mortal planes in the times of Ancient Greece.

Roughly speaking the Earth-1 timeline of heroes is:

Before Common Era: Vandal Savage, Hawkman, Hawkgirl are created as a result of Thanagarian Nth metal asteroids crashing in Ancient Egypt.
The 6 Totems of Zambesi are created, imbuing defenders of African tribes with various magical powers.
Magic in general is A Thing That Exists.
The League of Assassins and the Lazarus Pits are founded

1800s: Jonah Hex battles Quentin Turnbull

1940s: The first major development of metahumans in the WW2 era secret 'Justice Society of America', including the wielder of the Anansi Totem of Zambesi, Amaya Jiwe, known as Vixen. The JSA are disbanded during McCarthy-ist purges. Other heroes of this time include: Obsidian, Hourman, Doctor Midnight, Stargirl

2007: Oliver Queen begins his '5 Years of Hell'. Separately, Bruce Wayne becomes Batman. Outside of Gotham, Batman is mostly thought of as an urban legend, a crazy conspiracy theory, or a GCPD branding exercise.

2012: The Starling City Vigilante makes the news.

2013: The Canary also makes the news.

2014: The Particle Accelerator Explosion at Star Labs in Central City, creating the second great wave of Metahumans as a result of dark matter shenanigans. While metahumans are somewhat rumoured to exist beforehand, this is the year that everything came out of the shadows. The chief hero is naturally, the Flash.

2015: Through an incredibly complicated chain of events, The Green Arrow is publicly known as a hero (as opposed to The Hood, or The Arrow). He is known to be working with other vigilantes, such as Black Canary, The ATOM and Spartan.

2016: The public finds out that Aliens are real as a result of the Dominator Invasion. Earth-1 is introduced to Supergirl, an alien visitor from Earth-38.

2018: Supergirl, The Green Arrow and The Flash come to be known as 'The Trinity of Heroes.' Superman from Earth-38 also visits Earth-1 for the first time. Additionally, they visit Gotham and meet Batwoman.

2040: The Green Arrows daughter, becomes a vigilante, following in her parents footsteps.

2042: Zari Tomaz becomes the wielder of the Air Totem of Zambesi, passed down from her brother and, presumably, her family before them.

2049: The Flash's daughter becomes a superhero, XS. Or doesn't.

22nd Century: Rip Hunter (Time Traveller)

There are other various heroes too, including: The Elongated Man, White Canary, Kid Flash, Wild Dog, Mister Terrific, Firestorm and others, that aren't necessarily big or prominent names.


As for Earth 38 (The Supergirl show), the main heroes are:

Superman
Supergirl
Guardian
Martian Manhunter
Dreamer
Mon'El the Daxamite.
Referenced: Batman, but like Earth-1, is primarily a Gotham based urban legend. Is confirmed to be frenemies with Superman.

Supergirl's Earth also has the time travelling "Legion of Superheroes" from the 30th century, including Brainiac-5 and Saturn Girl


--------------

Hopefully, Crisis on Infinite Earths will result in Earth-38 and Earth-1 combining together, where we'll have a proper Justice League together and something similar to a classical DC universe.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 22:00:07


Post by: Yodhrin


Also, probably Earth Whatever Number Black Lightning Is On will be merged in, if that's what ends up happening, since he's in the Crisis crossover as well.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 22:07:03


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Dunno if they'll be merged, but that's more of a logistical things (BL is filmed in a different place to the rest of them). So this might be a nice bit of fun, but not something permanent.

Of course, having said that, Batwoman is filmed in Chicago (that main street they keep using is the same one as the truck flip from The Dark Knight!), and that seems integrated right away.

Supergirl was filmed in LA, but moved to Canadia when it switched to the CW.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 23:38:18


Post by: Compel


My own feeling for Black Lightning is that we'll end up having like Earth-38 Black Lightning, rather than the TV show Black Lightning, they just end up looking the same.

I also kinda feel like, if they don't merge Supergirl and Flash together, like, what was the point of picking that Crisis?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/24 23:50:09


Post by: Yodhrin


I dunno like, I'd have thought if they were going to do an alt-Black Lightning just for the crossover, they'd have given him a different suit like the alt-Superman etc, but in the cast pic he's wearing the brand new one he just got in the last episode.

Also I kinda want to see Jennifer Pierce banter with Team Flash and the Legends at some point, so I'm hoping they do merge it in. I get that they wanted to do their own thing with the show initially, but the original reasoning that the main shows were too whacky and full of superheroes to tell a more serious story about race kinda falls flat now that BL is rampant with powered people and not-Russian covert invasions(lol).


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/25 00:10:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Yodhrin wrote:
I dunno like, I'd have thought if they were going to do an alt-Black Lightning just for the crossover, they'd have given him a different suit like the alt-Superman etc, but in the cast pic he's wearing the brand new one he just got in the last episode.
I agree, but I also did have the thought that the BL in Crisis would be a BL, not the BL.

It would be fun watching Iris trying to deal with Jen.

 Yodhrin wrote:
...not-Russian covert invasions(lol).
Never let it be said that Berlanti shows don't wear their politics on their sleeve. And forehead. And in neon lighting all around them.





General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/25 08:47:26


Post by: Yodhrin


It wasn't so much that making me laugh, it was the idea of a fictional former-soviet state landing hundreds of covert operatives outside an American city and the USA doing...pretty much nothing about it?

Like, the ASA knows where they are enough to send Jeff & Jen to have a pop at them, at that point would they not just call in a few of those ludicrously expensive and over-engineered tanks & planes and vapourise the lot of them?

BL has some cool ideas and characters, but the actual plots they use to move those things around on the show are often fully pants-on-head.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/25 12:08:25


Post by: LordofHats


 Yodhrin wrote:
BL has some cool ideas and characters, but the actual plots they use to move those things around on the show are often fully pants-on-head.


That's pretty much why I stopped watching it.

If it were revealed someone's fourteen-year-old kid wrote for the show, I wouldn't be surprised because it's bizarre how much BL resembles "my first fanfic."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/25 19:49:10


Post by: JohnnyHell


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Compel wrote:
Plus, it's not that companies aren't wanting to BUY it (for one thing, the chaos it will cause with Crisis on Infinite Earths alone, would mean that Sky would want to put in at least a low bid).

It's that CW/WB aren't selling it. - They're not even making the attempt.
Because it's almost certainly an attempt at a The Producers style write-off.


How’s that hot take aged given they’ve just commissioned an extra 9 episodes to extend the debut season thanks to a great reception to early episodes?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/26 01:02:34


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Full Season Order!

I don't know if they still call it 'the back nine' these days, but whatever the case Batwoman now has a full season order.

I think that means Legends remains the only show that gets shorter seasons, but that might be because of budget reason (big cast, lot of FX and period-based episodes).

It's still going to be weird having Kate go from newly minted super-hero to the version we saw in Elseworlds for the upcoming crossover.

Maybe we've got it all wrong. Maybe this Batwoman show isn't about the Batwoman we saw in Elseworlds, but a Batwoman from a different Earth?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/29 14:43:38


Post by: Togusa


 JohnnyHell wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s a popular character...
I dunno if I'd go that far.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
... with a popular actress...
Definitely wouldn't say that.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
... as part of a popular shared universe.
One out'a three ain't bad.


Aw bless your agenda is showing. Ruby Rose was the breakout star (arf) of OITNB and has 14.3m followers on Instagram if you need a quick popularity check. The Batwoman comics run by JH Williams III was acclaimed and successful, and seems to be the template borrowed for the show. If you’re gonna snark at least try and do it by backing it up, eh?


"Popular"

"Instagram"


Brotha, please.

On a related note, I will never understand "hero" worship. People get all into a tipsy over this stuff and it really doesn't matter. Like the show or don't like it, but why waste time trying to change minds?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/30 23:24:53


Post by: BaconCatBug


"The baterangs were calibrated for Bruce. He had longer arms."
People actually defend this?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/31 02:42:01


Post by: insaniak


 BaconCatBug wrote:
"The baterangs were calibrated for Bruce. He had longer arms."
People actually defend this?

People don't need to defend that. It's a comic book show. Comic book things happen in it.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/31 02:43:58


Post by: BaconCatBug


 insaniak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
"The baterangs were calibrated for Bruce. He had longer arms."
People actually defend this?

People don't need to defend that. It's a comic book show. Comic book things happen in it.
Being a Comic Book show is not an excuse for being bad. Daredevil exists. Iron Fist exists. Batman TAS exists.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/31 04:00:29


Post by: insaniak


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Being a Comic Book show is not an excuse for being bad. Daredevil exists. Iron Fist exists. Batman TAS exists.

'Bad' is subjective. I found that scene amusing, and in keeping with the character setup. YMMV, obviously.


But given all of the logical, scientific, mechanical and medical incongruities scattered throughout comic book continuity, a mechanical flying gadget being calibrated to the height of the person throwing it in order to return to their hand seems an odd thing to draw the line at...



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/10/31 04:12:35


Post by: AduroT


I loved that scene just for her reaction when she missed it.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 18:28:47


Post by: Souleater


My favourite line: "Are you Batsplaining to me?"

I am enjoying the show overall, despite some stunningly bad action bits.

(Batwoman and the exploding pearls. The cyanide gas bit.)

I know it's a TV show of a comic book but sometimes things just smash though my usual cheery sense of disbelief.

(I mean, I am fine with how quickly Kate manages to swap in and out of her outfits while cleaning and reapplying her eye make up.)

But overall, it's good enough to keep watching.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 19:21:36


Post by: LunarSol


 Souleater wrote:

I am enjoying the show overall, despite some stunningly bad action bits.


Hopefully they'll improve once Ruby recovers from her injury.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 19:31:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


So, the wider Arrowverse.

As someone who greatly enjoyed Gotham, and had no real objection to the early bits of Arrow he saw....is it worth getting into? And in which case, can anyone link me to a ‘watch order’?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 19:36:31


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, the wider Arrowverse.

As someone who greatly enjoyed Gotham, and had no real objection to the early bits of Arrow he saw....is it worth getting into? And in which case, can anyone link me to a ‘watch order’?
If you're a fan of The Room then by all means watch it.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 19:43:33


Post by: LunarSol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, the wider Arrowverse.

As someone who greatly enjoyed Gotham, and had no real objection to the early bits of Arrow he saw....is it worth getting into? And in which case, can anyone link me to a ‘watch order’?


Season 1 Arrow
Season 2 Arrow
Season 1 Flash
STOP


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 20:01:01


Post by: insaniak


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, the wider Arrowverse.

As someone who greatly enjoyed Gotham, and had no real objection to the early bits of Arrow he saw....is it worth getting into? And in which case, can anyone link me to a ‘watch order’?


Arrow gets a bit wobbly around season 3 or 4, but somewhat gets its feet back under it later. Although the continual 'Oliver keeps a secret, everything goes wrong, rinse and repeat' cycle is a bit maddening after a while.
The Flash is variable, and suffers somewhat by really overusing evil speedsters as villains. I lost interest at the start of whichever season comes after Flashpoint...
Legends of Tomorrow is a lot of fun. Cheesy as hell, but deliberately so, and lots of fun little nods to other scifi franchises scattered throughout.
Can't say much about Supergirl - I've only seen the crossover episodes so far, but from what I've heard it's fairly good once it gets going.
Batwoman so far has been enjoyable. It doesn't seem as polished as the other shows have been, but for a first season it's solid enough to make me hang around to see where it goes.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 20:32:21


Post by: Compel


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, the wider Arrowverse.

As someone who greatly enjoyed Gotham, and had no real objection to the early bits of Arrow he saw....is it worth getting into? And in which case, can anyone link me to a ‘watch order’?


Without snark... The first question is kind of complicated. Typically, I find that the Arrowverse format usually has 3 concurrent plotlines for each show. And typically I've found, 1 plotline is good, 1 is bad and the 3rd is debatable. - What typically happens is sometimes this 3rd plotline is really bad and you then get a 'bad' season, sometimes it's really good, and you get a 'good' season. So, it can kind of depend on your own personal tolerance and preferences. And I'd, personally say there's no actively bad shows, but there might be ones you don't like and aren't for you.

I think what I'm trying to do is post the watch order with my own personal opinions on it and what the plus and minuses are in general terms.

Arrow Season 1 (Overall very enjoyable, but is kind of Batman-with-arrows, which isn't necessarily a bad thing)
Arrow Season 2 (Arguably the BEST season, pulled down a little by the Laurel subplotline, but the rest of it is just so damn good)

Arrow Season 3 (Actually kind of good, but sort of falls off of a cliff towards the end when they start retreading a Batman plotline)
Flash Season 1 (Really good, great season)

Arrow Season 4 (Some very good parts in it, where individual episodes and plotlines are good, but the main plotline is real bad with a villain that doesn't fit the tone of the show at all)
Flash Season 2 (Overall pretty good, not as good at season 1, but good)
Supergirl Season 1 (Family friendly show, bit too heavy on relationship drama, kind of non-objectionable)
Legends of Tomorrow Season 1 (They don't really find their feet with this season, some good cast members, others not good. but, overall not very good but shows signs of potential.)

Arrow Season 5 (A return to form and well thought of as one of the better Arrow seasons)
Flash Season 3 (Speedster villain fatigue sets in (3rd one in a row), wasted potential of the opening setup. Overall a bad season with some good individual episodes)
Supergirl Season 2 (Really good opening, but again kind of leans too heavily into relationship drama for me, still not bad, but not outstanding either)
Legends of Tomorrow Season 2 (They find their feet and LoT is now the 'funny' show, they drop the less good castmembers (and sadly, 1 good one), I see it as the spiritual successor to Stargate SG-1, crossed with Doctor Who)


Arrow Season 6 (A relatively poor season with two villains, neither of which are very compelling.)
Flash Season 4 (A non-speedster villain and... He kinda sucks.)
Supergirl Season 3 (Still kinda relationship-ey... To be honest, I've forgotten most of this season)
Legends of Tomorrow Season 3 (It goes from strength to strength, the villain from Arrow season 4 is the main villain and he fits in perfectly. The season finale is just perfect.)


Arrow Season 7 (A really slow start but significantly improves at episode 5. Overall a strong season. And there's 'flash forwards' starring Kat McNamara)
Flash Season 5 (In my view, BEST season since season 1, which an incredibly enjoyable new cast member.)
Supergirl Season 4 (There's a good new character, Nia Nal, but overall I don't rate the vast majority of this season at all. - It's basically like the writers wanted to write for The X-Men rather than Supergirl, and did it badly. BUT. BUT The last 5 or so episodes of this season, when they introduce a different villain is frikking awesome)
Legends of Tomorrow Season 4 (Constantine is a main cast member... Show kind of goes too wacky for my personal preference in the second half of the season. It's a bit like, further, further, further, NO TOO FAR, TOO FAR)

Arrow Season 8 (Good so far, is basically a season dedicated to wrapping up old plotlines since it's the final season)
Flash Season 6 (Good so far, is mostly preparing for Crisis on Infinite Earths)
Batwoman Season 1 (I caught some episodes on holiday. It's ok, it's not as bad as I was worried it would be, but doesn't quite live up to its potential from the source comics. Kind of gives real Arrow Season 1 vibes)
Supergirl Season 5 (Lots of Martian Manhunter things, I'm kind of liking it)
Legends of Tomorrow Season 5 (Not Aired Yet)


I haven't mentioned Black Lightning, because they're very much their own thing and have a completely different feel to them entirely. However, the two seasons I've seen are very, very good.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/19 21:07:05


Post by: insaniak


Season 1 of Black Lightning was ok. Season 2 was dull.

Although it will be vaguely interesting to see if it stays separate after Crisis brings it in with everything else. Tonally, it's very different to the Arrowverse shows, though.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/20 07:51:11


Post by: AduroT


 insaniak wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, the wider Arrowverse.

As someone who greatly enjoyed Gotham, and had no real objection to the early bits of Arrow he saw....is it worth getting into? And in which case, can anyone link me to a ‘watch order’?


Arrow gets a bit wobbly around season 3 or 4, but somewhat gets its feet back under it later. Although the continual 'Oliver keeps a secret, everything goes wrong, rinse and repeat' cycle is a bit maddening after a while.
The Flash is variable, and suffers somewhat by really overusing evil speedsters as villains. I lost interest at the start of whichever season comes after Flashpoint...


I’m the faster man alive. Except for that guy. And that guy. And that guy. Also that girl. Flash is like the Slowest speedster in the show.

Also they intermittently forget they’re heroes and murder their villains.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/20 09:11:22


Post by: Compel


I'm fine with it as long as it's not Barry killing people (or Kid Flash or XS, or Jesse. I'd need to be really convinced of Cisco)
I mean, one character is literally called Killer Frost.

Iris being willing to kill people is a comic thing


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/20 09:47:47


Post by: AduroT


Barry has killed several criminals himself as well.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/20 20:23:25


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 LunarSol wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, the wider Arrowverse.

As someone who greatly enjoyed Gotham, and had no real objection to the early bits of Arrow he saw....is it worth getting into? And in which case, can anyone link me to a ‘watch order’?


Season 1 Arrow
Season 2 Arrow
Season 1 Flash
STOP


that's about right, Legends has a few fun episodes (and Sara), although Arrow 3 (?) is sort of funny as for all the pish and wind about Bat Lass stealing Bruce's toys Olly stole his plots, heck they even Oracled Felicity for a bit


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/21 11:40:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Up to episode three or four of Arrow.

It's enjoyable enough - but surely that can't be Deadshot, the man famed for never missing who in said episode only hits one person, and fires quite a few times, before copping an arrow in the eye?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/21 14:28:33


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Up to episode three or four of Arrow.

It's enjoyable enough - but surely that can't be Deadshot, the man famed for never missing who in said episode only hits one person, and fires quite a few times, before copping an arrow in the eye?


but on the upside he does call Olly out for also being a murderous donk too


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2019/11/21 14:49:44


Post by: LunarSol


Deadshot never missing is an old trope that never really holds up in the context of a story he actually takes part in. The show actually leans into that more later on, but it doesn't really improve the character.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 01:08:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


And she's gone!

That's an interesting development.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 01:31:59


Post by: insaniak


On the one hand, I really, really hate characters being recast.

On the other hand, if ever there was a setting that had established myriad different options for recasting a character, the Arrowverse is it...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 01:48:24


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The continuity nut in me hates this, but at the same time I never much cared for her in the role and the fact that it was so clearly not her doing any of the stunts kinda took me out of it (were were spoiled with Stephen Amell, and are still spoiled with Caity Lotz).

I do hope next season has more of a focus on the Batwoman side of things, rather than Kate & Friends.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 02:47:14


Post by: insaniak


Here's hoping she takes the theme music with her...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 05:21:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 insaniak wrote:
Here's hoping she takes the theme music with her...
I figure eventually they'll finish the main theme and replace the heavy synth temp track with real music.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 08:39:57


Post by: BaconCatBug


I am sad because the show might actually improve, thus reducing the hilarity of the reaction videos.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 11:57:35


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am sad because the show might actually improve, thus reducing the hilarity of the reaction videos.


Naah they'll find something else to get faux pished about , but i liked Picard so im clearly not their demographic


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 12:53:15


Post by: AduroT


Do we need to start a separate thread for Stargirl or can all the CW super shows go in this thread since it was being used for general Arrowverse discussion earlier?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 18:21:01


Post by: hotsauceman1


Wait Stargirl?
The character from the second season of Legends of Tommorow?
They are making a show for her?

As for batwomen, I have yet to see it so i wont comment on quality, but how will they get around her recasting? Unless you have her stunt actor fight, she gets beaten to a pulp then get consctrutive surgery?
Or will they go the Fresh Prince route and never acknowledge it.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 18:52:56


Post by: Alpharius


The OP really should update the title of this thread!

If only he were someone that was around enough...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 19:52:20


Post by: Compel


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait Stargirl?
The character from the second season of Legends of Tommorow?
They are making a show for her?


Yes and no... The Stargirl on Legends of Tomorrow was the old Earth-1 Stargirl from the 1950's.

This Stargirl the tv show is about is a modern day Stargirl that's a modern day teenager from the new Earth-2.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 20:30:16


Post by: hotsauceman1


Man, I hope they dont add her to the line up for Crossovers.......
ITs gonna be more to be confused about.....


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 20:35:29


Post by: Azreal13


Honestly if you find any of the Arrowverse shows confusing you should perhaps consider another pastime. Colouring in perhaps?

But there's no Oliver anymore, and Supes has already featured, so the net number of characters available for crossovers is a net neutral. Perhaps even negative if all the Arrow gang don't get equivalent replacements on Team Stargirl.

As for Ruby Rose leaving? Good. Don't rate her in the slightest, and it's starting to look like all Ruby Rose can do is roles that are essentially Ruby Rose.

I'll have no issue with the recasting as long as it's an improvement, and the jokes in the crossover will likely be worth a lol.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 20:41:51


Post by: hotsauceman1


I mean more along the line of its going to be more to keep kept up on.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 20:51:15


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Part of me still thinks, despite her limited acting, she twigged early she had signed to a bad show so gave zero flumps about even trying aka The Portman prequel efffect

and they can just sub in Alex Danvars how has already mastered jamming `i like girls`into any discussion


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 20:55:58


Post by: hotsauceman1


Was it really a bad show? From what i saw it looked good.
I mean, nothing can beat the badness of Nora Allen


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 21:04:56


Post by: Azreal13


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean more along the line of its going to be more to keep kept up on.


Same difference, no Arrow anymore. Although allegedly there's a Lois and Clark style show in the works, I'd not be surprised to see The Flash wrapping up as that one premieres.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 21:31:53


Post by: insaniak


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean more along the line of its going to be more to keep kept up on.

I gave up on the Flash some time ago, and am still catching up on Legends, but haven't found the crossovers too difficult to follow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Was it really a bad show? From what i saw it looked good.

It was pretty standard Arrowverse fare. Let down mostly by the villain not being particularly interesting, and the 'twists' not being particularly surprising. And that godawful synth theme music.

Most of the Arrowverse shows weren't amazing for their first season, though.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 21:39:32


Post by: hotsauceman1


Hmm, interesting, im waiting for all seasons to be on netflix again to binge them TBH


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/20 22:14:34


Post by: H.B.M.C.


There, I changed the title. Now we can discuss everything from how bonkers Legends of Tomorrow is, to how the Flash Blu-Ray will have the complete Crisis on Infinite Earth's yet the Arrow Season 8 Blu-Ray didn't for some stupid reason...

 insaniak wrote:
Let down mostly by the villain not being particularly interesting...
Alice is one of the strongest parts of the show. Her and Mary, as it turns out.

It's Sophie that makes you fall asleep.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/21 01:34:00


Post by: Compel


Yeah, Alice is Great, her dynamic with Kate is probably the most second most important Batwoman relationship and no matter what happens with the show, I'm really glad to see that done on TV and done so well.

THE most important Batwoman relationship in my view is Kate and Jacob... Which, to be perfectly honest... Has kinda been a bit of a disappointment in the episodes I've seen so far.

THE, THE key thing with Jacob is him finding out Kate's Batwoman early on and in the space of a few seconds going from.

"WHAT THE HELL KATE ARE YOU INSANE WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS.... OK, deep breath, how can I help?"

And Mary has certainly been a fun addition to the show as a peer Kate can talk to.


Sophie, yeah, Sophie's rubbish. Disappointing and boring knock-off Renee Montoya.

Montoya should have basically been the second lead of the show with Victor Sage being a regularly recurring frenemy as a slowburn, long term plotline.

While I, overall, watch Batwoman and do find it ok and enjoyable enough, the main thing that I'm always struck with with watching it is, "y'all think you're better writers than Greg Rucka and, you're really not."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/21 01:41:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


My issue with Batwoman, which did subside quite a bit in the last 3 or so episodes this season, is that it was Kate & Friends, and not a Batwoman show.

When the show started acting like a comic book show it improved greatly. Angsty Kate is angsty and mopes around with her friends didn't have much appeal.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/21 14:19:47


Post by: Commander Cain


I made it about halfway through the first season before I got bored with it. Just way too similar to every other CW show in that there were 5 or 6 heartfelt speeches in every episode and I didn't find many of the characters likeable in the slightest.

In fact, while I used to watch all the shows in their entirety, now I just skip through episodes of The Flash to get to the interesting bits and abandoned all the other shows. Could be that I've just grown out of them but it seems like there is a lot of excellent TV being produced now that just really puts the CW stuff to shame!



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/21 23:10:48


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Abandoning Legends is a mistake.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/21 23:57:33


Post by: insaniak


I would agree, there. Flash got irritating, Arrow became a frustrating slog, but Legends is the show that just keeps getting better.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 07:01:03


Post by: AduroT


Legends kind of annoys me because in the same Arrowverse where Flash talks about the profound side effects time travel and even slight changes can have, the Legends are doing... that.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 07:20:57


Post by: hotsauceman1


Yeah legends kinda doesn't fit Arrowverse as fun as it is.
It also got kinda....... lame halfway through 3rd season with the final fight being a big Redeemer.
It started off as a way to deal with too many chart from the main show, good idea, but then they brought in too many aswell. It's fun but......I can see why
Personally Supergirl is my favorite, Wokeness and all.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 09:30:39


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Supergirl's great fun, and has had very 3 strong years in a row (season 3 didn't stick the landing, but eh, not everything works out). It's politics is the most overt, but that's part of the charm, because it's... well... I've already explained why:

ME! wrote:Berlanti politics, other than being unoriginal and boring (and easily defeated), tend to bring their shows to a grinding halt to deliver that week's Message™. Then the show just carries on as normal. Makes them really easy to ignore.
... so if you can ignore it, Supergirl is loads of fun. Killing Jeremiah off-screen was a no-no though. As is the un-personing of certain characters (the other two Lanes).

Legends didn't start well. A lot of people didn't like Vandal Savage (I did) and thought that the Hawk characters were dull (they were). It clicked from the second season onwards though, and has never stopped being silly.

As far as time travel contradictions with The Flash? Rip Hunter explained all of that. Certain things are set in stone, others aren't, and some can be if left long enough. Barry powers through time like a fething freight train high on super-cocaine. Guy doesn't know how to stop. The application of the time ship is more of a scalpel... that's on fire.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 10:03:40


Post by: Compel


Plus, the Legends have Flashpointed like... 3 times so far. They're just slightly better at screwing things up for the better fixing it.

Personally, I wasn't a big fan of season 4, it was just TOO silly. There were some good ones with a point in there, sure (The Japan episode for example), but overall, yeah, too silly.

Season 5 is better though, they've managed a stronger balance between silly and having a point.

I think my favourite right now though is Flash, Season 5 and 6 have been great from what I've seen. The move to shorter storyarcs in season 6 has really helped the show, instead of things feeling like they're strung out forever.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 11:04:07


Post by: AduroT


I do need to get caught up on Supergirl/Legends sometime. I fell behind on those when I was working on some big project I wanted done, and now I’m a season+ behind on both, and I’m bad about catching up on stuff I’m behind on.

So who watched the Stargirl premier? I enjoyed it well enough. Good effects. I really like the potential of her fighting style with the gymnastics and the staff that can move or fix itself in space. The tone is weird, like it’s nostalgia bait from a couple/few decades ago, but also we still have smart phones and fortnite and modern tech.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 14:30:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Stargirl was fun. Hard to say from just a pilot, but so far there are no glaring flaws.

The town in Nabraska they've moved to seems to be stuck in every decade from the 50's through to the 90's. It's weird.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 14:48:50


Post by: LunarSol


I never got into Legends simply because its so so first season came right when the other shows were losing steam. Sitting through the Damien Darhk nonsense was tedious enough, and while Flash was okay, it was starting to devolve into full "speedster villain" parody already. Giving the show a second chance didn't make much sense when I was giving up on the rest of them with Flash and Supergirl's poor showings that year.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 15:25:53


Post by: hotsauceman1


Legends i think got really good when they didnt start introducing the Villains until the later half of the seasons.
Flash, Arrow and some supergirl(Although they kinda avoided this problem) in the later half of seasons had problems in which they would want to start racheting up the tension with the main villain and having more confrontations, but they would end up wiith the hero losing everytime, so it got tedious/frusterating.
Legends avoided that by being a monster of the week with the villains being part of why the monsters existed.
I do love the characters of legends, its just a shame they keep getting rid of them. only 3 of the original 8 are left, Wally West didnt come back and poor Nate cant keep a love interest.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 16:46:08


Post by: Kanluwen


 AduroT wrote:
I do need to get caught up on Supergirl/Legends sometime. I fell behind on those when I was working on some big project I wanted done, and now I’m a season+ behind on both, and I’m bad about catching up on stuff I’m behind on.

So who watched the Stargirl premier? I enjoyed it well enough. Good effects. I really like the potential of her fighting style with the gymnastics and the staff that can move or fix itself in space. The tone is weird, like it’s nostalgia bait from a couple/few decades ago, but also we still have smart phones and fortnite and modern tech.

I mean, the tone makes sense when you have the big company called "American Dream"(that immediately started throwing warning signs up for me. ). There's a few towns that I've been to in my life that fall into that kind of tone.

I think Luke Wilson was a solid pick. I'm hoping we get to see a bit more of the JSA back in its Golden Age, but it does look like it will be a solid show so far.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/22 21:46:18


Post by: hotsauceman1


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Supergirl's great fun, and has had very 3 strong years in a row (season 3 didn't stick the landing, but eh, not everything works out). It's politics is the most overt, but that's part of the charm, because it's... well... I've already explained why:

ME! wrote:Berlanti politics, other than being unoriginal and boring (and easily defeated), tend to bring their shows to a grinding halt to deliver that week's Message™. Then the show just carries on as normal. Makes them really easy to ignore.
... so if you can ignore it, Supergirl is loads of fun. Killing Jeremiah off-screen was a no-no though. As is the un-personing of certain characters (the other two Lanes).

.

I personally never felt the problem with that. I felt as if season 4 was strong enough with its messege and villain woven together perfectly. Not to mention the episode of the villain becoming the villain.
Their Gun episode and the Enviromentalism of season 1 where.....bad.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 02:44:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Their Gun episode and the Enviromentalism of season 1 where.....bad.
Not nearly as bad as Arrow's gun control episode that ended with Mayor Queen announcing that they had come up with a gun control proposal that made both sides happy... and then in no way explained what that was. It was such a cop-out episode.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 06:24:41


Post by: hotsauceman1


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Their Gun episode and the Enviromentalism of season 1 where.....bad.
Not nearly as bad as Arrow's gun control episode that ended with Mayor Queen announcing that they had come up with a gun control proposal that made both sides happy... and then in no way explained what that was. It was such a cop-out episode.

Sometimes i wonder if those episodes come as a directive from up on high, and writers that are not versed in the politics just completely flub them.

However, I just finished infinite crisis and i have some ramblings,
Spoiler:
So, the biggest thing i liked about the arrowverse and their shows was them focusing on lesser known heroes or heroes that are Adjacent to the big 3(Wonder Women, Batman, Superman) So i was kinda upset when last year they made superman a big player, and he was even more so this time, along with his main vallain, which upset me. Adding Batman into the mix, who is the lamest looking one yet, upset. Especially when the mentioned the "Bat of The Future" I thought they meant Batman Beyond, but alas no, we get marlboro man Batman. With a scene I felt didn't add much.
The legends, despite being one of the main shows, was not featured much. Only Sara and Ray. None of the Actual legends we follow show up. Did they not want to pay but have the wave rider still? It was weird.
Overall the Crisis felt less, epic......Like really, his giant evil lair was under the city powered by Barry Allen from the 1990s running fast?
Nash quickly becoming Pariah was......OK.........
Black Lightning was dope, made me wanna watch his show. Maybe we will get Static Shock HAHA
All in All, Despite Olivers ACTOR being in it the most, The Green Arrow himself was rarelt in it, felt like a bad send off, all Mindwiped or Ascended versions of him.
Also, stop skirting around things Arrowverse, if you are going to have batman, why cant you say "The Joker Gassed the Building"
Kinda Cool that all those shows are now in a way the Arrowverse. Cool I guess.
Honestly, it tried to get all these characters time to shine when they really should have focused on the leads of each show, Supergirl, Sara&Ray, Oliver, Flash, Batgirl.
Also what was with Cho? Was that his name, i just finished it and i cant remember........Is he a comic reference?

So, Batwoman isnt coming to netflix, apparently all new shows in Arrowverse that premiered prior to fall 2019 are still going to be on netflix, but others are going to HBO max.
Really, Really, Lame.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 09:42:10


Post by: Compel


In the comics, Ryan Choi is the second ATOM (Fun fact: Nora mentions him in Flash Season 5 as being the person who designed Barry's Flash ring).

WIth Brandon Routh leaving Legends of Tomorrow, he's probably going to be a successor there. Although, he has been featured more acting alongside Flash characters, so, who knows...

From some side references I've picked up, there's a 'crossover premium' for actors working across shows, so typically having the full Legends cast honestly is too expensive for them (And probably a big reason for them not being on Elseworlds).

But we did have Ray, Sara, Mick and Constantine, so I think that was a fair number.

As far as I know, it's still not possible for the UK to watch Crisis on Infinite Earths actually in order. - It's not even showing up on the UK edition of the Arrow boxset


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 15:33:00


Post by: hotsauceman1


It was less that there where less legends, I get why alot of characters are going to be put to the wayside.
My confusion was why was there an alternate waverider with Snarts voice and alternate Mick Rory?
If they needed those, why not just....use them? It seemed lame.
Could they not get the Gideon actor?
Like i said, this was full of too many overt refrences for me to really enjoy, DCEU, Ryan Choi, 90s flash. Really to much for me to enjoy, enough to get me un engaged and look up "Ok what is he a refrence too.
Still mad there is no batman beyond, cameo. Bat of the future......Grrr


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 18:22:25


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Adding Batman into the mix, who is the lamest looking one yet, upset... marlboro man Batman.
Are you talking about Bruce Wayne as played by Kevin Conroy? You get why that was significant right?

 Compel wrote:
It's not even showing up on the UK edition of the Arrow boxset
It's not on the Blu-Ray for Season 8, which is completely bs. The other crossovers were included in previous seasons, but not in this one for some dumb reason. It will be on the Flash's Blu-Ray so... great!




General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 18:28:01


Post by: BaconCatBug


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Adding Batman into the mix, who is the lamest looking one yet, upset... marlboro man Batman.
Are you talking about Bruce Wayne as played by Kevin Conroy? You get why that was significant right?
All it did was destroy Batman's legacy to prop up the female Ersatz-Batman.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 18:32:28


Post by: hotsauceman1


He just doesnt look like Batman.
He looks like someones uncle. But like i said, I dont CARE if these are significant for some obscure reference, if it doesnt make since. This was meant to be the culmination of these shows, and it idnt feel like it when they thrown random reference after random refrence in there.
Did we need to see DCEU flash.
Why was it some Random Flash from another show dies and not Jay Garrick from earth-2? That would have had more impact.
and the Antimoniter is defeated by Tech-Teching him. Kinda lame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Adding Batman into the mix, who is the lamest looking one yet, upset... marlboro man Batman.
Are you talking about Bruce Wayne as played by Kevin Conroy? You get why that was significant right?
All it did was destroy Batman's legacy to prop up the female Ersatz-Batman.

Batmans fans have destroyed Batmans legacy by constantly making him into a brooding psychopath.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 20:26:37


Post by: Kanluwen


"Obscure reference"?

Kevin Conroy is obscure to you?!


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 20:31:20


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Kanluwen wrote:
"Obscure reference"?

Kevin Conroy is obscure to you?!

Kinda? Didnt recognize his voice or knew who he voiced.
And the fact that if they are implying that is the same batman he voiced..........then it makes me even more mad.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 20:52:01


Post by: Compel


There's no real implication he's the same Batman (See Batman Beyond for the conclusion to that story).

He's more implied to be the "Dark Knight Returns-esque" Batman.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/23 21:43:27


Post by: insaniak


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
It was less that there where less legends, I get why alot of characters are going to be put to the wayside.
My confusion was why was there an alternate waverider with Snarts voice and alternate Mick Rory?
If they needed those, why not just....use them? It seemed lame.
Could they not get the Gideon actor?
Like i said, this was full of too many overt refrences for me to really enjoy, DCEU, Ryan Choi, 90s flash. Really to much for me to enjoy, enough to get me un engaged and look up "Ok what is he a refrence too.
Still mad there is no batman beyond, cameo. Bat of the future......Grrr

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. All of those references were precisely what made this crossover so cool.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 00:36:05


Post by: hotsauceman1


Yeah, The way i see it is i like these cross overs because it gets chharacters interacting we dont normally see interacting, including the side characters.
Like i said, it takes it away from me. Why should I be upset that the old man flash died? He was a one off from before. Yeah he has the same face as the other Flash, it wasnt him.
Why should I be upset that this batman fell from grace? I never followed this Batman. Why should i feel upset the Ray Palmer Superman lost people, I never watched that one go.
Refrences are cool and i love them, but some feel, off.
Also, can someone tell me what refrence was that to the Depowered Superman? cant find it haha.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 00:51:55


Post by: insaniak


So, I'm curious - how would you prefer them to have shown that this crisis affected different realities without showing some of those different realities?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 01:14:42


Post by: hotsauceman1


 insaniak wrote:
So, I'm curious - how would you prefer them to have shown that this crisis affected different realities without showing some of those different realities?

Well, we have been to multiple earths, Earth 1, earth 38, Earth 2, the Earth 3 Flash. We see earth 38 destroyed and earth 3 is mentioned, Black lightning is shown too.
I would argue that would be enough.
And we didnt really see much about how it affected those realities. They popped in for a Vignette and left.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 01:19:07


Post by: insaniak


Only showing it affecting the realities that we've seen before doesn't give it a bigger scope this time around, though. This was an opportunity for them to show that this was bigger, while also throwing in a whole bunch of fanservice just for the fun of it.

Don't get me wrong, you're perfectly entitled to dislike it... but if ever there was an opportunity to go nuts with the easter eggs, this was it. It fit with the story, and it was a heck of a lot of fun.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 01:23:46


Post by: hotsauceman1


I didnt necessarily dislike it much,
I just felth they where less easter eggs and more shoving in your face.
Like the DCEU flash, the 1990s flash.
I still think earth 3 flash(Jay) should have been on the treadmill. it would have made for a much better scene with more emotion. Yeah he LOOKS like him but it isnt him.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 03:19:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 BaconCatBug wrote:
All it did was destroy Batman's legacy to prop up the female Ersatz-Batman.
It did no such thing.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 08:37:37


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
All it did was destroy Batman's legacy to prop up the female Ersatz-Batman.
It did no such thing.


Besides Earth 666 it was my favourite other Earth, Bruce trying to warn her that she isnt nigh-invunerable as his Kate died and the whole once you start down the dark path blah blah, of course Kate aint going to listen to no man and totally ignores him and swipes his kyptonite just in case her super bestie Kara does something off message


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/24 16:57:28


Post by: hotsauceman1


Except not?
It was there to show her what Batmans style of justice and being above the law eventually leads to, what can happen to the whole Bat Family with their style of justice.

Dont get me wrong, i didnt like that scene mostly because it seemed kinda lame with how it was kinda presented, but I understood why it was there.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/05/29 02:47:07


Post by: Alpharius


Totally forgot Stargirl had launched, caught up watching the first two episodes and I'm enjoying it quite a bit so far.

Have to say I was surprised where they went right off the bat with the JSA though!


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 00:50:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Just when you thought it couldn't get any dumber...

THR wrote:'Batwoman' to Feature New Lead Character After Ruby Rose's Departure

Following the surprise departure of Ruby Rose from the title role at the end of The CW superhero drama's first season, the show has opted to create a new character to play Batwoman rather than recast Rose's role of Kate Kane, a cousin of Bruce Wayne, The Hollywood Reporter has confirmed.


The feth... ?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 01:13:42


Post by: insaniak


That works better than casting a new actor as Kate, IMO. We've had how many Robins in the comics, now? There's no particular reason Batwoman can only be Kate Kane.

Although killing off Kate and having Sophie step in to the cowl would be a more obvious choice than a new character.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 01:24:26


Post by: Azreal13


 insaniak wrote:
That works better than casting a new actor as Kate, IMO. We've had how many Robins in the comics, now? There's no particular reason Batwoman can only be Kate Kane.

Although killing off Kate and having Sophie step in to the cowl would be a more obvious choice than a new character.


Sadly the actress isn't gay, or at least doesn't appear to be out, and The CW have already publicly comitted to casting a gay actress in the role once more.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 01:36:34


Post by: hotsauceman1


So i just finished all of arrow
The Final season really was this weird Farewll tour, not bad but great. It felt like, other than seaon 5-6 each episode kinda followed the rough idea of a a previous season
Ep1 was season one, with the same big bad and plan.
Ep2-3 was kinda season 3 with both Katana and the AlphaOmega Virus and league of assasin(Season 3 i think is the strongest
Ep4 was season 2 with Slade
Ep5 was season 5 with the russians.
IT was interesting to say the least


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 02:58:16


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 insaniak wrote:
That works better than casting a new actor as Kate, IMO. We've had how many Robins in the comics, now? There's no particular reason Batwoman can only be Kate Kane.
It's a terrible idea. Everything in the show is intrinsically linked to Kate and her relationships.

Her sister is the Big Bad.
Her father runs the private security firm that has replaced the GCPD.
Her ex-lover is the second in command of this private security firm.
She's literally related to Batman!

And on and on it goes.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 03:16:41


Post by: insaniak


That just means they need to work in some new narratives for her replacement.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 03:23:08


Post by: LordofHats


 insaniak wrote:
That just means they need to work in some new narratives for her replacement.


Charmed Season 4: there is another sister


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 03:55:26


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 insaniak wrote:
That just means they need to work in some new narratives for her replacement.
You mean jettison the entire premise behind the show and all its relationships?

This isn't Willa Holland leaving Arrow, or Brandon Routh being written out of Legends. This is the central focus of the show being removed. That's not something that you can just alter without basically changing what the show is about at the core.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 06:14:45


Post by: insaniak


The show is ultimately about Batwoman, not Kate. While it would have been nice to get more of her story, exploring how somebody else fits into the role is potentially every bit as interesting as The Further Adventures of Kate Kane.

My only real concern is whether they've managed to convince RR to stick around long enough to actually transition the role, rather than just 'Oh yeah, she's gone now!'


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 06:48:10


Post by: AduroT


Overall I think the idea of a different character is dumb, as has been said the whole premise of the show wraps around Kate’s relationships and those all remain unresolved. I would be far more willing to accept that Kate just looks different now.

HOWEVER it could be amusing to see Alice finally best Batwoman, pull off her cowl, and go wait, you’re not my sister, who the feth are you?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 08:05:49


Post by: H.B.M.C.


So Legends of Tomorrow just had their 5th season finale. Legends is known for being very wacky, and for doing things it really shouldn't just because it can. It's not meta in the sense that it's self-referential (although it does do that occasionally), but it takes conventions of genre and just kinda feths with them. I think the best example of this is the episode called "Guest Starring John Noble" (yes, that was the episode's name) where John Noble play himself to record lines to order the minions of a Time Demon... played by John Noble. It's what I'd call peak Legends.

So what happened in yesterday's finale? Well, there fight scene set to Sisqo's Thong Song, where Sisquo played an animatronic museum display of himself, whilst Nate (Steel) danced with energy drink cans in either hand and Ava fought Genghis Khan with a pair of shake-weights! I cannot describe how amazing that scene was.

The show is utterly insane, and I cannot wait for it to come back next year.

 insaniak wrote:
The show is ultimately about Batwoman, not Kate.
I couldn't disagree more. I have criticised this show for not being a Batwoman show but being a Kate & Friends show. The show has been about Kate more than it has ever been about her nocturnal adventures. Most of the show is about Kate and Beth/Alice.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/03 08:14:34


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Azreal13 wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
That works better than casting a new actor as Kate, IMO. We've had how many Robins in the comics, now? There's no particular reason Batwoman can only be Kate Kane.

Although killing off Kate and having Sophie step in to the cowl would be a more obvious choice than a new character.


Sadly the actress isn't gay, or at least doesn't appear to be out, and The CW have already publicly comitted to casting a gay actress in the role once more.


Miriam Margoyles ? Aunt Harriet returns to Gotham to suit up and show the young uns how its done


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/04 06:53:39


Post by: hotsauceman1


So if they are straigh up having the Main character leave and a new one....
Its essentially a different show.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/04 11:27:50


Post by: Compel


Ick.

That's just... Ick.

Just replace the actor, have Luke quip, "did you do something new with your hair?" And job done.

Everything that makes Batwoman such a compelling character in the comics is Kate's personal relationships with people. Alice, Jacob, Bruce, Bette, Julia (Julia and Bette might be the only people I can maybe see taking over the cowl), Safiya, Renee.

Then again, the Batwoman show has been kind of defined by, "we're going to do kinda the same things as Greg Rucka but fall short because we think we're better writers than him."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/05 00:58:26


Post by: insaniak


 Compel wrote:
Just replace the actor, have Luke quip, "did you do something new with your hair?" And job done.

They tried that in Sense8. (as in, literally that joke) It didn't work. Although that was at least in large part because the new guy just wasn't as good as the guy he replaced, not just because it was a different guy.

Having one of the Legends pop in to say 'Oops... ' would be more in keeping with the Arrowverse and it's multiverse/timestream approach...




General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/05 05:50:22


Post by: hotsauceman1


I have to say, finishing supergirl Season 5.....it may be the worst Arrowverse season ever.
It was, well, all over the place.
You had several plotlines going all over the place, From Lenas, Leviathans, to Lex.to Malefic to well, all of them, and Supergirl had not much to do.
She never engaged with those threats it feels like. She stopped Rama Khan once then who saved the day and defeated all the villains? BRAINY!!!!!!!!! Not with some uber cool fight, but......Tech Tech....
It just felt off.
Not to mention the Dreamer episode which ended the exact way you thought "Dont be like him" Even though that was the A plot.....it felt like the Bplot.
Jeremiah is murdered off screen.....um what?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/05 07:03:03


Post by: AduroT


Leviathan? “I’m taking over all the world’s spy agencies” Leviathan or something different with the name? I haven’t watched the last couple seasons of Supergirl but I’d be curious how they would do the same Leviathan that’s in the comics right now, what with him having completely annihilated the DEA as his opening act and all.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/05 07:11:54


Post by: hotsauceman1


Leviathan are ancient aliens that control humanity, through extinction level events, are related to Krypton or something.
It was stupid.
Like they literally control the elements of earth, wind, fire and technology.
They call Rama Khan an earth bender.
It was all dumb.
But the worst was, Supergirl didn't drive the plot forward at all, she was kinda, reactionary.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/05 09:00:33


Post by: AduroT


Ok, entirely different Leviathan than the comics then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
According to a casting notice reposted on Reddit — which encourages LGBTQ performers to audition — Ryan Wilder is a female in her mid-late 20s and the complete opposite of Kate Kane. "She's likable, messy, a little goofy, and untamed," reads the document. "With no one in her life to keep her on track, Ryan spent years as a drug-runner, dodging the GCPD and masking her pain with bad habits. Today, reformed and sober, Ryan lives in van with her plant. A girl who would steal milk from an alley cat and could also kill you with her bare hands, Ryan is the most dangerous type of fighter: highly skilled and wildly disciplined. An out lesbian. Athletic. Raw. Passionate. Fallible. And very much not your stereotypical All-American hero."


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/05 12:30:26


Post by: Compel


I think "Event Leviathan" was probably at around the same time Leviathan was being plotted in the show.

And, as for Batwoman, that just makes me sad. And describing that as the opposite of Kate Kane makes me sadder. Kate IS SUPPOSED TO BE likeable. One of her defining things is that, unlike Batman, she actually genuinely Knows How To Human. She also makes terrible personal life choices and tends to screw it all up, but she knows how to human.

As for Jeremiah...

Dean Cain, broadly speaking, expresses strong values that are very much not in keeping with Supergirls, or the shows, philosophy. They probably didn't want to give him another paycheck.

I've not seen the episode yet, but as I understand it, they had Jeremiah dying doing something that was the complete opposite of what Cain believes. Personally, I quite like that little Frak You of an idea...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 05:11:31


Post by: cuda1179


 Azreal13 wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
That works better than casting a new actor as Kate, IMO. We've had how many Robins in the comics, now? There's no particular reason Batwoman can only be Kate Kane.

Although killing off Kate and having Sophie step in to the cowl would be a more obvious choice than a new character.


Sadly the actress isn't gay, or at least doesn't appear to be out, and The CW have already publicly comitted to casting a gay actress in the role once more.


I'm not exactly sure why though. Why does the actress need to be a lesbian, or the character for that point? I understand why they portrayed Kate Kane as a lesbian, as that is a major part of her character. Why retread into Kate Kane 2.0, generic version?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 05:46:20


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 cuda1179 wrote:
Why does the actress need to be a lesbian, or the character for that point?
Welcome to [current year], where a gay character has to be played by a gay actor because if they didn't Twitter will cancel them.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 11:49:00


Post by: Compel


It's a little more complicated than that.

Broadly speaking, minority roles are rare in Hollywood, especially in comparison to the the makeup of the CWs markets.

And you simply just don't get a better makeup and mix without providing visible rolemodels when the opportunity arises.

Seeing an out LGBT+ actor playing an out LGBT+ character ultimately encourages more LGBT+ actors to be their authentic selves, and therefore, better actors, because they're not having to act as a character while acting as a public persona while having to pretend to be straight. - That's a lot of brainpower that's being used which could be used perfecting their craft.

Ultimately, it's good for the long term benefit of their business.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 12:28:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


And then Ruby got gak for not being "gay enough". This kinda gak isn't new. I can think when, and this is going back a bit, people like Jonathan Groff got gak because he was a gay guy playing a straight character. That was 10 years ago now.

The people making these types of complaints are lunatics, and they should not be listened to under any circumstances. Unfortunately, in order to avoid the furore of social media, organisations like WB fall over themselves to appease them in the hopes that they'll leave them alone.

It's why we get craven and cynical acts like rainbow coloured flags on corporate Facebook pages.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 19:05:04


Post by: hotsauceman1


IF you are going to end up having a minority or disenfrachised group as a character.......you should hire an actor that is that group
Or you end up with situations where you have a ciswome portraying a transwomen, when that could have gone to some one who is actually trans.
Or it can lead to people thinking "Well just like this actor is pretending to be a lesbian, so are other lesbians" which i have seen, where people actually think that lesbianism is an act/phase


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 20:21:19


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Compel wrote:
It's a little more complicated than that.

Broadly speaking, minority roles are rare in Hollywood, especially in comparison to the the makeup of the CWs markets.

And you simply just don't get a better makeup and mix without providing visible rolemodels when the opportunity arises.

Seeing an out LGBT+ actor playing an out LGBT+ character ultimately encourages more LGBT+ actors to be their authentic selves, and therefore, better actors, because they're not having to act as a character while acting as a public persona while having to pretend to be straight. - That's a lot of brainpower that's being used which could be used perfecting their craft.

Ultimately, it's good for the long term benefit of their business.
You know they are actually over-represented, right? In 2015 GLAAD analysed the film releases of seven major film studios and their affiliates and found that out of 161 movies released in 2014, 25 featured characters with non-traditional sexual preferences such as homosexuality or bisexuality – a total of 15.5 percent. The major film studios were more likely to feature gay characters – nearly 18 percent of their films did so, compared to just 11 percent of those released by their smaller, “indie”-style affiliates.

Considering a 2015 Gallup poll found that only 3.4 percent of the U.S. population identifies as homosexual, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, the number of films featuring homosexual characters would seem to be inordinately large. https://www.glaad.org/sri/2015


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
IF you are going to end up having a minority or disenfrachised group as a character.......you should hire an actor that is that group
Or you end up with situations where you have a ciswome portraying a transwomen, when that could have gone to some one who is actually trans.
Or it can lead to people thinking "Well just like this actor is pretending to be a lesbian, so are other lesbians" which i have seen, where people actually think that lesbianism is an act/phase
Do you not know what acting is? Do you hire a murderer to play a murderer in a movie? Do you hire an actual spy to play James Bond?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 20:43:10


Post by: hotsauceman1


Dude.....that is such a weak argument and you know it.
Its about how LGBT are underepresented in media, so if you are going to have someone play someone who is that you hire someone.
just like if you need an asian character, you dont hire a white guy to just play them or a black actor to play a black guy.
Also how many of those actors are playing someone who is LGBT+?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 20:44:30


Post by: Turnip Jedi


gotta agree with BCB that kind of thinking would have denied us Rob Lowe in Behind the Candalabra, and got that Scarlett Johansson film canned

but if we need an well off unstable bisexual who likes a scrap for a new Batlass I think Johnny might be able to give us some input...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 20:47:28


Post by: BaconCatBug


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Dude.....that is such a weak argument and you know it.
Its about how LGBT are underepresented in media, so if you are going to have someone play someone who is that you hire someone.
just like if you need an asian character, you dont hire a white guy to just play them or a black actor to play a black guy.
Also how many of those actors are playing someone who is LGBT+?
And if you need a Ginger character, you hire a black actor!
Spoiler:
Or does it only work one way? Call me old fashioned, but you should hire people on their merit, their ability to do the job.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:01:40


Post by: Azreal13


I don't think we're quite there yet, I think we need a little positive discrimination in some walks of life to ensure equity before we reach equality.

However, in terms of LGTBQ and the entertainment industry? Not so much.

I'm not saying that the whole industry is equal and that nobody ever got discriminated against for being a minority, but I think as a whole they're further down the road than some, possibly most.

So I think hiring the best actor for the role should be the thing, and declaring you're going to hire a gay actor before you've apparently started recruitment might even be litigable.

But the optics for The CW's main demographic is good, and that's the real reason driving it.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:17:03


Post by: hotsauceman1


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Dude.....that is such a weak argument and you know it.
Its about how LGBT are underepresented in media, so if you are going to have someone play someone who is that you hire someone.
just like if you need an asian character, you dont hire a white guy to just play them or a black actor to play a black guy.
Also how many of those actors are playing someone who is LGBT+?
And if you need a Ginger character, you hire a black actor!
Spoiler:
Or does it only work one way? Call me old fashioned, but you should hire people on their merit, their ability to do the job.

Sigh.........
When you take a minority character and make them not their minority(Typically you make them white, and a straight guy, and Cis) you are decreasing diversity
When you take a White character(Or Non LGBTQ character) and make them a Minority, you are INCREASING diversity
And yes you are being old fashioned, Old fashioned where "Ability to do the Job" is a dog whistle for "I dont think Minorites can do any job"


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:19:08


Post by: Azreal13


Don't put words in his mouth.

Especially not those words.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:22:40


Post by: hotsauceman1


I have seen enough people say "I just want who is good enouogh for the job to get it" as nothing more than a cover for racist/bigoted tendencies. Even if it is not intended that way, the phrase itselt comes up no matter what whenever diversity casting is mentioned. It is not a coincidence.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:27:58


Post by: Alpharius


 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't put words in his mouth.

Especially not those words.


Agreed!

You guys are going to Third Rail this thread right out of existence.

The "General CW Arrowverse discussion" thread no less!


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:29:16


Post by: Azreal13


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I have seen enough people say "I just want who is good enouogh for the job to get it" as nothing more than a cover for racist/bigoted tendencies. Even if it is not intended that way, the phrase itselt comes up no matter what whenever diversity casting is mentioned. It is not a coincidence.



So what you're saying is that because you've seen some people say a thing and mean another thing, you're automatically assuming that everyone else who says anything similar holds the same beliefs?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:32:27


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Alpharius wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't put words in his mouth.

Especially not those words.


Agreed!

You guys are going to Third Rail this thread right out of existence.

The "General CW Arrowverse discussion" thread no less!

Fair enough
As to another thing I really didnt like about these batches of seasons

Especially Flash and to a Lesser extent super girl, the two halve(Before and After Crisis) felt totally disconnected and useless.
I feel crisis should have maybe have been like the opener for all of them.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:33:28


Post by: BaconCatBug


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Dude.....that is such a weak argument and you know it.
Its about how LGBT are underepresented in media, so if you are going to have someone play someone who is that you hire someone.
just like if you need an asian character, you dont hire a white guy to just play them or a black actor to play a black guy.
Also how many of those actors are playing someone who is LGBT+?
And if you need a Ginger character, you hire a black actor!
Spoiler:
Or does it only work one way? Call me old fashioned, but you should hire people on their merit, their ability to do the job.

Sigh.........
When you take a minority character and make them not their minority(Typically you make them white, and a straight guy, and Cis) you are decreasing diversity
When you take a White character(Or Non LGBTQ character) and make them a Minority, you are INCREASING diversity
And yes you are being old fashioned, Old fashioned where "Ability to do the Job" is a dog whistle for "I dont think Minorites can do any job"
I could turn that around and say you simply dog whistling XYZ Race aren't good enough to get jobs on merit, the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:37:00


Post by: Azreal13


But you won't, because we're trying to collectively pull up and not fly into the mountain, right?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 21:48:30


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Azreal13 wrote:
But you won't, because we're trying to collectively pull up and not fly into the mountain, right?


pfft we are way up the clouds, admittedly its a bit odd that one has a ski-lift....



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 23:45:40


Post by: Compel


Flash is moving to what they call a 'graphic novel' setup for the seasons, not having a single season long villain and instead just telling their story however long it takes.

And, to be honest, I think it's a really good idea. I think it provides for more focused stories where things aren't dragged out for... Ev.... Er and let's us explore more villains more deeply but having a definite end to their story


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/07 23:59:47


Post by: Azreal13


Well it'll hopefully mitigate the whole idea of establishing the threat, then maintaining a narrative stress position on whichever character has been marked out for imminent danger™ this season for 12 episodes before the power of friendship® pulls everyone together and allows them to triumph in the final few shows.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 00:26:21


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Compel wrote:
Flash is moving to what they call a 'graphic novel' setup for the seasons, not having a single season long villain and instead just telling their story however long it takes.

And, to be honest, I think it's a really good idea. I think it provides for more focused stories where things aren't dragged out for... Ev.... Er and let's us explore more villains more deeply but having a definite end to their story

See, i liked the season long villains, the problem was with villains like "The Thinker" in which they won only because it wasn't their time to lose yet.
There where not victories over him, just, losses
Cicada did it nicely IMO because why had their wins and losses against them. With one Major win.
IDK if im going to like the change,
IMO, of all the shows(Barring Legends) had their best line ups during the first 2 or so seasons. Yes they had their Season long villains, but they didn't become a big deal/worked in the shadows, until the end. This allowed for more episodic story telling, but with an overarching story. Meta/Alien/Other Dude of the day
Recent episodes/seasons are all tied together.
IDK, im just worried if flash goes from villain every like 5 episodes, it might make the seasons feel disjointed. That is how part one vs part two felt.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 06:19:29


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Compel wrote:
Flash is moving to what they call a 'graphic novel' setup for the seasons, not having a single season long villain and instead just telling their story however long it takes.
Moving to? Already done with Bloodwork and then Mirror Master (but that last one got mucked up 'cause'a COVID).

I like the little self-contained smaller stories. Agents of SHIELD did that during one season, where they had 3 "pods" as they called them - the 'Ghostrider' pod, the LMD pod, and the VR Hydra future POD - and it worked really well. Allowed them to tell complete stories without dragging a single thread out over 22 episodes.

Some shows don't need that kind of thing - Legends and Black Lightning have generally shorter, more focused* season. Arrow has always needed fewer episodes, the exception (IMO) being Season 2 where they had an extra episode for 23 episodes, which was necessary to give breathing room after the shocking death of Moira Queen. Flash could live to be shorter, and Supergirl has a tendency to drag things out (even if their last two season, not counting the most recent one, have easily been the show's strongest).

I understand why TV shows are 22 episodes, but it would be better if they were shorter.

*Or as focused as Legends can manage; that show is wild!


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 08:43:03


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I find focussing on Legends fairly simple for Lotz of reasons

Be interesting to see if the new format pays off, the 20ep and change runs do appear to tread water a bit, then again part of that might be having grown up with UK telly when anything over 8 is/was unusual


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 19:01:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Good news everyone! The Twitter mob have cancelled an Arrowverse actor for incredibly mild comments he made nearly a decade ago.

That's right, Hartley Sawyer, aka The Flash's Elongated Man, has been fired for flagrantly racist tweets made 8 years ago. Behold the sheer vileness of his actions in all their magnitude:

"The only thing keeping me from doing mildly racist tweets is the knowledge that Al Sharpton would never stop complaining about me."

The horror! The horror.





Twitter just needs to fething die.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 19:04:16


Post by: BaconCatBug


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Good news everyone! The Twitter mob have cancelled an Arrowverse actor for incredibly mild comments he made nearly a decade ago.

That's right, Hartley Sawyer, aka The Flash's Elongated Man, has been fired for flagrantly racist tweets made 8 years ago. Behold the sheer vileness of his actions in all their magnitude:

"The only thing keeping me from doing mildly racist tweets is the knowledge that Al Sharpton would never stop complaining about me."

The horror! The horror.





Twitter just needs to fething die.
I mean, the CW and the actors who work for them made their bed, now they get to sleep in it.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 19:08:13


Post by: hotsauceman1


Hartley Sawyer fired over old racist tweets

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/hartley-sawyer-fired-flash-misogynist-tweets-surface-1297483
There goes one of the best characters still.
Flash looks to be shaping up to slow down and crash soon.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 19:18:11


Post by: H.B.M.C.


You were ninja'd.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 20:08:20


Post by: hotsauceman1


Except his twets where way worse than what was said, saying things about abusingwomen and dogs.
Dude literally said he would beat his wife if he had one
https://twitter.com/skaijackson/status/1269017350730211329/photo/2
and here is more
https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc-NUJJdijA/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/sawyertweets.jpg


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 20:44:24


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Secret ladys lumps ? Like I wasnt already baffled by the form and now I find out theres secret bits

but silly man, any chance we can get Dogwelder to replace him


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 20:50:28


Post by: hotsauceman1


I mean, if there is anyone you can do an actore replacement with, its Ralph dipney. Just say he is somehow locked in a new form.
BUT! its is not going to be the same, he was the last actually fun guy one there and when he was with other Characters he would actually be fun.
But like, now what? you got perpetual sad face Barry, "MUH FAMILY" Iris, Killer Frost is actually fun, but too little than her, Mr Hates His Life and perpetually miserable Cisco. And whatever lame concept for a Wells they can think of.
If i wrote Crisis, i would have had earth 2 wells come back with his memories restored.
Not to mention all the other side characters they can bring in thaat dont get enough time(They introduced like 2 this season)


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 20:58:28


Post by: Compel


To be fair, after those tweets, if it turned out he was a real life Dogwelder, I wouldn't be surprised...

In saying that, it does feel slightly hypocritical considering what Warner have done with James Gunn...

Personally I'm kind of hoping there's more to it, such as them asking him to explain / apologise for the statements and refusing... Or a continued pattern of behaviour.

I can kinda start thinking that maybe the Arrowverse did end with Arrow after all...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 21:25:21


Post by: hotsauceman1


I mean, if so, its not a bad run of like, 6-7 years of a shared universe.
And it seems like, they MIGHT be kinda seeing the writing on the wall with them setting shows in other Earths, therefore not really needing to cross over but still "There" kinda. And with earth prime believing they are they only ones left, no reason for them to go to other earths.
The problem always is ending a show. Melissa Benoit has 2 more seasons atleast, so its douptful if she stays because she has a kid on the way i think it will likely end at that. It seems Flash is running out of steam and legends, as silly as it is, its quickly becoming the Agents of Shield of it, where its technically part of the universe, but is so wholly detached it doesn't matter


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 21:37:57


Post by: Azreal13


So, as is obvious to anyone with 3/8 of a brain, he confirmed in his apology that they were intended as jokes.

It's z list material, yes, but only intended as humour. From nearly a decade ago.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/08 21:46:20


Post by: hotsauceman1


You dont get to hide behind saying gakky or offensive things......because its humor.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 02:08:20


Post by: Alpharius


I wonder if they'll recast Elongated Man and not mention it or...something else?



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 02:29:31


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Alpharius wrote:
I wonder if they'll recast Elongated Man and not mention it or...something else?


I mean, it does suck because his story was intertwined with the person from the cliffhanger from the end of season 6.
I do feel like they are overreacting. Yeah the jokes are bad and he deserved to have them come to light, firing him ain't right.
But from what I hear there was behind the scenes stuff with Caitlins actor pushing for it, so there might have been friction behind the scene.
The show could use a cast dumb though. Pretty much get rid of a few characters. Like honestly cwhst purposes to Team Citizen serve? Or Horton? It's kinda.....not not needed.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 08:47:06


Post by: insaniak


I have cleaned out a bunch of off topic chatter. Let's stick to the topic and avoid getting into debates over the merits or lack thereof of off-colour humour, please.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 09:50:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
You dont get to hide behind saying gakky or offensive things......because its humor.
You also shouldn't lose a job because of Twitter comments made nearly a decade ago.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 09:58:03


Post by: Turnip Jedi


So assuming Flash and Supergirl are rolling towards a conclusion what replacements would folks like to see ?

Personally Id like a magic show of some ilk although I know Tim is off the table as two boy wizards is confusing even 20 years apart

And Tefe show, its so CW friendly Im surprised shes been overlooked ( might be a rights thing cos Swamp Thing ?)

any suggestion that my picks are excuses for more Johnny C are pure coincidence


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 10:33:09


Post by: Compel


Well, Matt Ryan is hoping to play Constantine on the HBO Max Justice League Dark series that's been suggested.

Personally, I'd love Green Arrow and the Canaries to get a full show, I really loved the energy between the 3 leads in the pilot.

We've got Superman and Lois coming, of course (though I have reservations about that, to be honest... Giving them 2 kids just seems silly... I would have personally gone with them adopting Damian after Bruce vanished, so we have some authentic Supersons fun, rather than the face pseudo Supersons we're getting).

I find it weird that they have apparently been banned from making any more references to Themyscira and Wonder Woman (It seems that was the only thing they WEREN'T allowed to reference in Crisis).

A Booster Gold and Blue Beetle series could be a fun successor to Legends.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 11:22:51


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Yep Im a tad unsure about the Supe shows format, arent kids at least a s5 thing by tv trope law, Flash got a timey wimey pass helped by the high cuddlesome factor of said offspring





General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 11:56:08


Post by: chromedog


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
You dont get to hide behind saying gakky or offensive things......because its humor.
You also shouldn't lose a job because of Twitter comments made nearly a decade ago.


It's the 21st gakking century.
If he hasn't learned that the internet won't forget, or let anyone else forget by now, then that's on him.

I'm not saying I didn't do stupid gak, but at least I did it when there was no omnipresent www to record it all.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 12:10:41


Post by: Compel


I'm kinda fine with the concept of like, just starting a Superman & Lois series with a kid.

It's like, we've had 10 years of Smallvile, we've had Lois & Clark in the 90's, we've had Reeves, Routh, Cavill... We don't need to tread over the ground again.

And SuperSons was an acclaimed series. It's just the implementation they're going for that I have my doubts over.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 14:21:24


Post by: Turnip Jedi


although I thought missing Lara was a rare slip in CW policy but if Wonderwoman is off limits that explains that


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 14:25:33


Post by: Compel


It's just a guess.

They said they weren't allowed to reference a "multimillion dollar franchise" for Crisis on Infinite Earths.

And they have the DCEU in it, so it's not all of that. Then the next episode, Cisco talks about visiting Atlantis, so it's not Aquaman...

So, that mostly leaves Wonder Woman, which hasn't had any real reference since Legends season 3 finale, and is pretty close to when Linda Carter stopped on Supergirl.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 15:18:16


Post by: hotsauceman1


I hope it's not a big giant one TBH. Let other smaller super heros get their due IMO. Big ones should be the purview of movies.
Green arrow and canaries seems like a good one.
But also, Superboy.
Here is a good one, Nightwing.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 15:49:30


Post by: Compel


I would imagine that they'd rather tell Nightwing and Superboy stories via Titans


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/09 22:24:38


Post by: Alpharius


Current rumors now look like Batwoman (Kate Kane) will be getting killed off in order to pave the way for the new Batwoman of Season Two and beyond.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/10 00:05:00


Post by: hotsauceman1


I have yet to watch batwomen. But i cant imagine that being a good idea in any universe.
Its going to kill alot of good will from people who liked it.
And, i have yet to see it, but from Crisis, it seems here entire character is defined by relationships to other people and how she fosters them.
Not to mention, she is pretty cool i think.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/10 06:57:52


Post by: AduroT


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I have yet to watch batwomen. But i cant imagine that being a good idea in any universe.
Its going to kill alot of good will from people who liked it.
And, i have yet to see it, but from Crisis, it seems here entire character is defined by relationships to other people and how she fosters them.
Not to mention, she is pretty cool i think.


That’s absolutely the show. I don’t know how you remove Kate from it. Her cousin is Batman. Her father is the head of the not-police. Her former girlfriend is the not-police’s second in command. Her sister is the primary villain. Her step sister is the street doc. Like all the major characters save one share a preexisting personal relationship with Kate, not Batwoman. I’ll wait to see what they do with it, but it feels really stupid to kill Kate off. I think the show would be better off simply recasting Kate with a new actor even if that is briefly awkward.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/10 07:39:11


Post by: Just Tony


I'd be down for a Blue Devil series.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/10 22:18:48


Post by: Alpharius


 Just Tony wrote:
I'd be down for a Blue Devil series.


I loved that comic back in...1984 (!) when it first came out.

I think they've made some changes to the character more recently though, so I'm not sure which version you're talking about!


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/10 22:35:56


Post by: Compel


He's been in James Tynion IV's recent Justice League Dark series, where he's taken the role as a champion of DC's version of 'Otherworld..'


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 00:11:21


Post by: Alpharius


Is it worth checking out if you're a fan of Blue Devil?

Also, in regards to Kate Kane:

https://www.cbr.com/batwoman-caroline-dries-ruby-rose-departure-bury-your-gays-story/

Posting on Twitter, Dries promised fans that Kate Kane would not be erased or killed off. "As a lesbian who’s been working as a writer for the past 15 years, I’m well aware of the 'Bury Your Gays' trope and I have no interest in participating in it," Dries explained. She reiterated that she loves Kane and her "disappearance" will be part of Season 2's mysteries.


Earlier rumor was...false?

Clickbait?

Either way, looks like Kate will 'disappear' too, just like Bruce?

And so eventually they'll have to recast her anyway? Maybe?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 01:28:25


Post by: Just Tony


 Alpharius wrote:
Is it worth checking out if you're a fan of Blue Devil?

Also, in regards to Kate Kane:

https://www.cbr.com/batwoman-caroline-dries-ruby-rose-departure-bury-your-gays-story/

Posting on Twitter, Dries promised fans that Kate Kane would not be erased or killed off. "As a lesbian who’s been working as a writer for the past 15 years, I’m well aware of the 'Bury Your Gays' trope and I have no interest in participating in it," Dries explained. She reiterated that she loves Kane and her "disappearance" will be part of Season 2's mysteries.


Earlier rumor was...false?

Clickbait?

Either way, looks like Kate will 'disappear' too, just like Bruce?

And so eventually they'll have to recast her anyway? Maybe?


Could be part of the plan. A whole season to get used to not remembering what Kate looked like is an easy way to make the recast... palatable.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 01:32:54


Post by: insaniak


Or they have Ruby Rose lined up to come back for an episode or two later on, once the new character is established. Kate can be found, having undergone some sort of ordeal or personal stuff, sees how well the new bat is doing, says 'Hey, yeah, you da bat now!' and rides off into the sunset.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 13:57:58


Post by: LunarSol


It sounds like more than anything she didn't like the job and the schedule it put on her. Seems like a situation where she'd be okay with cameos.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 14:02:28


Post by: Kanluwen


 LunarSol wrote:
It sounds like more than anything she didn't like the job and the schedule it put on her. Seems like a situation where she'd be okay with cameos.

From the bit I was reading, it's not that she "didn't like" them--she wasn't expecting the commitment that a show like Batwoman would create with its weekly shooting schedules.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 14:03:35


Post by: hotsauceman1


Did they not have her under contract or did she break it?
Several others like Supergirl and flash are under contract...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 14:27:03


Post by: H.B.M.C.


They'd all be under contract. It would be a case of buying out the remainder of the contract and making sure the parting is as amicable as possible.

Plus, enforcing a contract like that is bad press for everyone.



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 17:46:09


Post by: Alpharius


 Kanluwen wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
It sounds like more than anything she didn't like the job and the schedule it put on her. Seems like a situation where she'd be okay with cameos.

From the bit I was reading, it's not that she "didn't like" them--she wasn't expecting the commitment that a show like Batwoman would create with its weekly shooting schedules.


Sounds like a 'definite maybe' in terms of an eventual cameo or two then.

For whenever someone finds Bruce.

Or maybe not, now...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/11 20:03:42


Post by: LunarSol


Maybe it will be an ongoing gimmick they run into the ground like the Wells thing? Season 6 they find the sub-basement to the batcave where Bruce, Kate and 4 other Batwomen are all just playing Fortnite or something.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 03:35:26


Post by: hotsauceman1


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They'd all be under contract. It would be a case of buying out the remainder of the contract and making sure the parting is as amicable as possible.

Plus, enforcing a contract like that is bad press for everyone.


I guess im confused, if you dont bother enforcing a contract, why have one?


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 05:16:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I guess im confused, if you dont bother enforcing a contract, why have one?
Contracts help you plan for the future. Enforcing them can be bad tact though.

Flipping to Marvel as an example, Hugo Weaving was contracted to several films as Red Skull. This means that if they ever wanted to bring Red Skull back, they could call upon Weaving's contract so he would have to come back (otherwise he'd suffer whatever "broken contract" penalties were built into to the contract). Having Weaving on contract doesn't mean that they have to use him, only that they can if they chose to.

Apparently Weaving didn't have much fun on The First Avenger, so when the time came to bring Red Skull back for Infinity War/Endgame, rather than exercise the contract details that would bring Weaving back, they just recast the character with someone else.

Y'know, like they should do with Batwoman, rather than introducing Nobody McTickbox as a new character.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 06:53:50


Post by: AduroT


I did not realize that was a different actor for Red Skull.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 10:37:57


Post by: BaconCatBug


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They'd all be under contract. It would be a case of buying out the remainder of the contract and making sure the parting is as amicable as possible.

Plus, enforcing a contract like that is bad press for everyone.


I guess im confused, if you dont bother enforcing a contract, why have one?
They should just RaI it.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 14:18:51


Post by: LunarSol


The last thing you want is an actor who doesn't want to be there.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 14:58:33


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 LunarSol wrote:
The last thing you want is an actor who doesn't want to be there.


as those last few x-films showed

I wouldnt bet on Batwomen getting past s2 especially if the audience figures dont pick up


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 17:00:50


Post by: LordofHats


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I guess im confused, if you dont bother enforcing a contract, why have one?
Contracts help you plan for the future. Enforcing them can be bad tact though.


To expand, they're also good for all the little things. Hashing out responsibilities, entitlements, pay, fringe benefits, all that stuff. Puts both parties on the same page so everyone knows what the deal is and how that deal will be carried out. Contracts are about more than planning, they're also about making things run smoothly and avoiding the kind of "on the set drama" that was a big part of celebrity gossip in the 90s and early 00s.

Enforcing a contract, especially on someone who just wants to go, is bad PR. Especially in this day and age where no dispute between celebrities stays all that secret. The corporate calculus is simple in theory. If enforcing a contract might do more damage than just letting it go, just let it go.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 19:19:24


Post by: gorgon


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
The last thing you want is an actor who doesn't want to be there.


as those last few x-films showed


Also Whedon's reshoots for JL...right, Mr. Affleck?

BTW, I read that if his cowl looks kinda tight during some moments, it's because it is. He didn't come back in the same shape he was in for BvS and Snyder's footage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'd be down for a Blue Devil series.


They introduced the character in the cancelled DC Universe Swamp Thing series. Not sure if you've seen it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
It sounds like more than anything she didn't like the job and the schedule it put on her. Seems like a situation where she'd be okay with cameos.

From the bit I was reading, it's not that she "didn't like" them--she wasn't expecting the commitment that a show like Batwoman would create with its weekly shooting schedules.


I gave up on the Arrowverse a long time ago, but IIRC, Amell used to talk about how wrecked his body would be by the end of the season. Grueling shooting schedule plus lots of physical work can add up to a bad time.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/12 20:22:46


Post by: Turnip Jedi


hope youre not implying a wee slip of a lass (and her doubles) cant do the stunt work of a brick outhouse of a chap like Mr A

Surely it cant be that taxing as thanks to Bruce the goon quality of Gotham is so low even Dr Q can slap them down



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/13 02:53:33


Post by: Azreal13


Well, Ruby did damn near break her spine by all accounts, so...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/13 09:52:12


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I could see how that would put you off, I blame Josh Weedon for starting it with his tiny ladies punching things trope / fetish



General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/13 10:54:27


Post by: insaniak


Yeeeah... I don't think Joss Wheedon started that...


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/06/13 11:38:03


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 insaniak wrote:
Yeeeah... I don't think Joss Wheedon started that...


Oh course he did as besides The Simpson nothing happend before the Internet (kidding of course)


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/09 01:40:18


Post by: Ouze


Batwoman has been cast (re-cast? not sure how to phrase it).

Say Hello to the CW's New Batwoman

Charles Pulliam-Moore
Today 7:00PM
Filed to:
BATWOMAN

Just as suddenly as Ruby Rose exited the CW’s Batwoman, the network has announced that it’s found a new actor to don the cowl and keep Gotham’s streets safe.

Spoiler:


Per the Hollywood Reporter, Javicia Leslie is set to become the CW’s next Batwoman in the series’ upcoming second season. One of the big questions following Rose’s abrupt exit from Batwoman was whether the CW would simply cast someone else to play Kate Kane or if the show might pivot in a different direction. The answer, of course, should be obvious.

According to the Hollywood Reporter, Leslie’s character Ryan Wilder is anything but a duplicate of her crimefighting predecessor. Unlike Kate, Ryan spent her life doing what it took to survive in Gotham, including pushing drugs and clashing with the city’s police officers, all the while sticking true to her own personal code of ethics that’s likely to factor largely into her character.

“Today Ryan lives in her van with her plant,” a press release describing the character explained. “A girl who would steal milk for an alley cat and could also kill you with her bare hands, Ryan is the most dangerous type of fighter: highly skilled and wildly undisciplined. An out lesbian. Athletic. Raw. Passionate. Fallible. And very much not your stereotypical All-American hero.”

Leslie taking over as Batwoman is particularly notable given that she’ll be the first Black, openly queer woman to lead one of the CW’s Arrowverse shows that have featured predominantly white heroes—aside from Black Lightning, which only just recently started being included in the network’s annual crossover events.

“I am extremely proud to be the first Black actress to play the iconic role of Batwoman on television, and as a bisexual woman, I am honored to join this groundbreaking show which has been such a trailblazer for the LGBTQ+ community,” the actor told THR.

Given that Leslie’s character doesn’t have a one to one counterpart in DC’s comics, it’s not clear just what sort of energy she’s going to bring to Batwoman in the show’s future seasons. But her presence is almost certain to shake up Batwoman’s status quo in some interesting ways when the series returns to TV.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/09 01:51:20


Post by: hotsauceman1


So i finished Legends season 5(Wow)
and i feel like they are really just, abandoning everything.
I think i can count on one hand we see nate use super powers. and one is just a damn sound effect. Ray uses his powers less and less, and it seems like more people dont just have powers. We see constantine use his the most, but not all are special effects so we can
Ray leaving was a sad episode and a great. A reall good story about letting go of characters you love and how they are just that, characters that dont exist(BTW, a lesson i will never take to heart lol) and him and nate wow.
With that leaves just Mick and Sara as the only originals left. Nate still kinda count IMO because he has been there so long and nearly was a part of the original team.
But Mick mostly seems to just.....be there. Like he is the funniest character but barely interacts with the main plot it feels especially when he was.
All in all, i feel the writing/jokes are going down hill. They repeated the best joke from the last season, the puppets. Because it was so stupid it felt right, but a repeast kinda sucks.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/09 06:55:39


Post by: AduroT


Still think they should have just hit the bullet and recast Kate instead of bringing in some totally new random girl to be Batwoman.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/09 23:47:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 AduroT wrote:
Still think they should have just hit the bullet and recast Kate instead of bringing in some totally new random girl to be Batwoman.
100%. I'm not sure I can be bothered with Batwoman when it returns.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/10 07:27:34


Post by: AduroT


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
Still think they should have just hit the bullet and recast Kate instead of bringing in some totally new random girl to be Batwoman.
100%. I'm not sure I can be bothered with Batwoman when it returns.


I’ll definitely check it out, if for no other reason than morbid curiosity. I also don’t want to give up on it without giving it a chance. While the show is based on Kate’s personal relationships, and the main villain as her sister, I also rather hated the way they dealt with Alice, so with no Kate maybe we also get no Alice and that might just make it better to me.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/10 07:56:01


Post by: Turnip Jedi


So a scrappy under-dog who really should have a much better understanding of how the world works is going to suit up and try to punch evil out of existence ?

Progress is funny sometimes


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/12 23:09:52


Post by: insaniak


Meh, I still like this idea much better than a recast Kate.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/13 13:47:58


Post by: Souleater


It seems odd that Sophie didn't take up the Bat Woman role.

She's an established character (who i have always thought had a more appropriate body shape) which is better for story telling.

Plus fits the tick boxes for the character, if not the actor.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/07/14 06:40:16


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Souleater wrote:
Plus fits the tick boxes for the character, if not the actor.
Can't have an actor playing something they're not these days. That's too much acting.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/27 23:17:49


Post by: insaniak


The new Batwoman, in costume:
Spoiler:






Not sold on the hair - seems pretty solidly impractical (I didn't like the red wig on Kate, either... while it's comics accurate, in live action it just looked silly), and I can't help but think that a braid would have been a far better choice if they really wanted her hair exposed. But otherwise, looks the business.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 00:37:29


Post by: Casualty


Strangely I'm much happier with a completely original character than I was with such a half hearted Kate.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 00:45:47


Post by: Asherian Command


Man CW is really weird with their shows. but I actually like the batwoman in the pic. I hope she is a better actress.

I've really tried to enjoy the arrowverse but man its hard to get into past season 5 of arrow or season 3 of Flash.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 01:02:54


Post by: Kanluwen


Worth mentioning that she will also be introduced in the Batgirl #50 coming up.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 07:43:11


Post by: AduroT


I’m still curious how they’ll slot a not-Kate into the central role of a show entirely based around Kate’s personal relationships. Also I believe I’d heard that look is temporary and she’ll develop her own different appearance for the costume.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 08:47:38


Post by: insaniak


The costume in the pics is the different costume. She starts out in Kate's, and switches to this one.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 09:18:15


Post by: AduroT


Oh, well that’s a let down then.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 10:57:59


Post by: BaconCatBug


 AduroT wrote:
Oh, well that’s a let down then.
The entire Comics/Comic Adapation industry in a single sentence.


General CW Arrowverse discussion! @ 2020/10/28 14:05:22


Post by: Voss


 insaniak wrote:
The new Batwoman, in costume:
Spoiler:






Not sold on the hair - seems pretty solidly impractical (I didn't like the red wig on Kate, either... while it's comics accurate, in live action it just looked silly), and I can't help but think that a braid would have been a far better choice if they really wanted her hair exposed. But otherwise, looks the business.


Braids are actually pretty terrible for someone who likes hand-to-hand combat- they tend to provide a convenient, firm hand-hold for opponents. The style she's sporting is pretty fragile and doesn't hold up well to pulling, so isn't particularly much of a liability.
Not as practical as just short hair, but Sam Carter aside (because at one point Stargate had some fairly decent military advisors), TV really doesn't care about practicality when it comes to women's hair.