Been reading a lot lately (and some of it fairly convincing) that GW have effectively given up on the Oldmarines line.
Like completely.

Does this mean in the future their rules will be completely gone or will they be moved to some sort of Index only type rules?

Didnt something similar happen to Tomb kings and Brets in AoS? (zero new kits but still playable with index rules?).

Finally this makes me sad. I grew up on Oldmarines and still love their aesthetic

It's a complete line, so it's inevitable.

What can you sell to a SM player who has everything...?

If the newer units are easier to load out and understand for a new player, they'll sell more of them. Especially if they are more powerful than the older models.

Old kits were kitbashed to fill in for the missing models (bosses on bikes, etc). Take away stuff like bikes, and the need to cater for these options goes away. Fewer shelves needed to hold the full range. More space for FotM.

in X years yes, SM will be nothing but primaris and old sm will moust likely be given the legacy treatment: open play only army with rules in index.

They statted up oldmarines for Apocalypse, so they haven’t abandoned them completely.

At the same time, I wouldn’t expect to see more oldmarine model releases - the design space is pretty full already and I think their interest is in promoting the primaris line.

I do think whenever we get to a 9E we can expect to see rules support for oldmarines fall completely away.

 Ratius wrote:
Been reading a lot lately (and some of it fairly convincing) that GW have effectively given up on the Oldmarines line.
Like completely.

Does this mean in the future their rules will be completely gone or will they be moved to some sort of Index only type rules?

Didnt something similar happen to Tomb kings and Brets in AoS? (zero new kits but still playable with index rules?).

Finally this makes me sad. I grew up on Oldmarines and still love their aesthetic

They're still in the codex, and you can still buy boxes online, but do not expect any new models.

Updated versions of old characters will be Marines who've gone through the Rubicon Primaris, and with new moulding/sculpting technology, you can expect non-Primaris to be stealthily updated to a less "heroic" scale across the range – the new Chaos Space Marines, for example.

The sheer number of existing Space Marine armies means it's not really plausible for the rules to be completely phased out even as old boxes go out of production, but the moving timeline means that Oldmarines can be steadily made less common and relevant across the galaxy – by 9th edition, I wouldn't be all that surprised to see Oldmarines reduced to an Index option, perhaps with Non-Primaris Veterans staying in the codex to represent those grizzled warriors who refuse/can't be upgraded.

It's a slower, gentler death than Tomb Kings and Bretonnia, who aren't even available as models or acknowledged in the fluff. By the point the End Times rolled around in 2014, Bretonnia had been effectively dead for over 10 years, with no new models or rules, but it was particularly sad for Tomb Kings. They'd only just received their first update since 2003, with some gorgeous and relatively new kits – Tomb Guard, Sepulchral Stalkers, and the Necrosphynx – that could have been easily folded right into the current Grand Alliance: Death gameline, even under new names and witness protection identities for the new factions. Instead they just got unpersoned entirely.

From the fluff point of view, the old Tacticals are a reminiscence of the dark age, while the Primaris Marines embody the renaissance.

Oldmarines will be squatted both in fluff and in rules.

9th edition will relegate Oldmarine vehicles and infantry to index status and Primaris will get replacements for Terminators, Predator and Stormraven.

Pretty sure Oldmarines have received new models more recently than plenty of other factions - the new Devastator squad from 2 years ago or so, for example.

When did, say, Dark Eldar get any new models? Voidraven / Archon / Succubus in, what, 2014?

Space Marines have the biggest codex and range of models, and they're probably more up to date than any other faction barring those only created in the last few years like GSC.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines will be squatted both in fluff and in rules.

9th edition will relegate Oldmarine vehicles and infantry to index status and Primaris will get replacements for Terminators, Predator and Stormraven.

I doubt they will ever be squated in the fluff they will for sure be less and less relevant, but W authors cannot help but put throwback references and I imagine GW will keep some characters standard marines (heck drednaught ones have to stay in thier dreadnaught).

Also I doubt GW will be bold enough to give space marines the index only treatment in 9th editions. If they are smart it will be done over several editions. in 9th you will have some units be index only, say the ironclad and venerabel dreds, scout bikers, sternguard and a few lesser used and/or units with older kits. tac squads, captains, predators, razerbacks, rhinos etc make it into the 9th edition codex imp. Then in 10th they likely index most of the classic units but keep a handful of relevant primary units IE tacticals, captains, terminator squads (probably mixed weapons at that point) and basically 1 classic option per slot. Then by 11th and onward index only.

at that point they can say they kept the classic marine alive for more than a decade after primaris introduction and make them index only (and point them out of competative play so really only fluffbunnies in open play use them). I so hope 30k remains a thing though for them as mayeb classic marines players not wanting to give up on the old models have a game.

GW isn't stupid and they know they need to handle phasing out of the old posterboy faction for the new posterboy faction will have to be eased into

 G00fySmiley wrote:
GW isn't stupid and they know they need to handle phasing out of the old posterboy faction for the new posterboy faction will have to be eased into

Agreed. It looks to me like their strategy is to just not make any new Oldmarine units or rules and just let the players decided when they get phased out.
If people keep buying OldMarine kits, GW will keep selling them alongside Primaris stuff. But I suspect once the sales of the Old Marine stuff drops to a certain low point, they'll start phasing them out and be fully justified in doing so since the players "voted with their wallets"
By that time, most players will have come to accept it and the backlash will be minimal, if any

It's smart, but also annoying for those of us that just want the Band-Aid ripped off already

-

This is all speculation of course. For all we know GW could plan to keep marines and primaris together indefinetly.

 Stormonu wrote:
They statted up oldmarines for Apocalypse, so they haven’t abandoned them completely.

At the same time, I wouldn’t expect to see more oldmarine model releases - the design space is pretty full already and I think their interest is in promoting the primaris line.

I do think whenever we get to a 9E we can expect to see rules support for oldmarines fall completely away.

Oh, they haven't abandoned them at all. They received tons of support in Vigilus Defiant and will continue to be supported into the next decade at least. I would be very surprised if they became an index army any time soon.

But new units are very unlikely. New sculpts will continue to be very limited and special, a la FW or Heroes line.

Lemondish wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
They statted up oldmarines for Apocalypse, so they haven’t abandoned them completely.

At the same time, I wouldn’t expect to see more oldmarine model releases - the design space is pretty full already and I think their interest is in promoting the primaris line.

I do think whenever we get to a 9E we can expect to see rules support for oldmarines fall completely away.

Oh, they haven't abandoned them at all. They received tons of support in Vigilus Defiant and will continue to be supported into the next decade at least.

But new units are very unlikely. New sculpts will continue to be very limited and special, a la FW or Heroes line.

This is my view basically.

We do this thread every month or so, but there's no new information. Again.

This will probably go to 10+ pages around the same arguments again, but ultimately we don't know what GW are planning. And even if we did, they might change their mind.

I hope they get around to releasing MkIV and MkVI box sets someday.

Gitdakka wrote:
This is all speculation of course. For all we know GW could plan to keep marines and primaris together indefinetly.

Don't kid yourself or anyone else. Old Marines were doomed from the release of Dark Imperium. Every single new release has cemented that fact. Why can't old and new share transports? Huh? Because they don't want to keep selling the old kits. They want Marine players to have to re-buy EVERYTHING. They don't want to see old Marines around anymore. But they at least realise there would be riots if they just cut off old Marines could turkey. They know people have giant armies of old Marines. So of course they give us Apoc rules because they have to. People don't own enough Primaris and Primaris don't even have a full model line yet to just put them in.

Even the new 40k novels are planting that seed that small Marines are old news and outdated.

Cold turkey would have spawned the best complaint threads!

The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.

This is exactly the problem though. Too many people have a Marine army and aren't buying "****" for it any more. That's the huge incentive GW has for making your army obsolete.

Doing it too quickly pisses too many people off of course. So slowly slowly they go.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.

don't even have to run them as chaos, just renegade marines, I honestly have a theory on how GW is going to pull this off next editions. I think we are going to have a schism between some chapters that accept primaris and the ones that do not (already hinted at in books). I think GW is going to split the books in 9th into primaris marines and spce marines and the classic chapters (liek ultramarines, white scars etc) will be primaris, btu they will have a "codex adeptus astartes: for normal space marine units and split the 2. its one of 2 ways I see it going splitting or indexing over a few editions. I doubt GW will immediatly drop marines, but I also don't think they will have any more kits than most xenos armies get aka occational resculpts but rarely if ever new units

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The thing is, I'm definitely not going to rebuy a marine army. I'd much rather collect a different army than replace the one that I've been building up for a decade.

Marines, to me, at the core, are a Tactical Squad and a Rhino. The moment I can't field that is the moment I no longer play Marines. My army is essentially built of units that could have been played 25 years ago. I'd hope to be able to keep playing them. But when I can't, I'm not rebuying ****.

The saving grace, strangely, appears to be Chaos. They just had their regular CSM box released. I don't think they're going away. So if I can field my generic marines with Rhinos and Land Raiders using Chaos, then that's what I'll do to field my marine army. The sad thing will be walking away from Ultramarines, which has been my primary army for 22(?) years.

This is exactly the problem though. Too many people have a Marine army and aren't buying "****" for it any more. That's the huge incentive GW has for making your army obsolete.

Doing it too quickly pisses too many people off of course. So slowly slowly they go.

No, no. You don't understand. I'm STILL buying stuff for it! I bought four more Tactical Squad boxes in the last few months. I'd like to buy two more Land Raiders. I'm also planning on picking up some of those Space Wolf flyers to do some Storm Raven conversions. I'd like to fill out my Attack Bikes a bit, get some Hunters/Stalkers. After that I'd buy more Assault Marines just because I think they're cool. More Devastators would help me fill out my Heavy Weapons for the Tacs I just bought, etc.

It's not like I'm "done". If they keep supporting it, I'll keep adding for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

don't even have to run them as chaos, just renegade marines, I honestly have a theory on how GW is going to pull this off next editions. I think we are going to have a schism between some chapters that accept primaris and the ones that do not (already hinted at in books). I think GW is going to split the books in 9th into primaris marines and spce marines and the classic chapters (liek ultramarines, white scars etc) will be primaris, btu they will have a "codex adeptus astartes: for normal space marine units and split the 2. its one of 2 ways I see it going splitting or indexing over a few editions. I doubt GW will immediatly drop marines, but I also don't think they will have any more kits than most xenos armies get aka occational resculpts but rarely if ever new units

Literally ANY excuse to keep playing my Old/Real/Truemarines will be fine by me. Just the basics is all I need. Tacs, Assaults, Devs, Vets, Terminators, Rhino Chassis Variants (just the basics is fine), Land Raiders, Captain, Chaplain, Techmarine, Librarian, Boxnaught.

They can be renegade, they can be a separate rapid-strike arm (because Primaris don't have Pods, apparently), they can be applicants incompatible with the Primaris-geneseed, whatever.

Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

The "oldmarine" line is over 100 kits. They could shrink that down to 10-ish, and keep them around, if they were trying to cut down on the logistics.

If there is an Old/Primaris schism, I have to wonder how they’ll handle offshoot books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - if at all.

Of course, GW isn’t going to announce when they will cut the old marine line off - if they did so they risk being stuck with a bunch of unsold plastic. I’d watch for kits going “out of stock” and not being restocked as the measure of the line’s remaining life. With “online exclusive” being a precursor to the models ascendant demise.

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

If I had to bet which one will leave 40k first: non-Primaris marines or any typical player gaming currently. I would bet on the player leaving the 40k before non-Primaris marines do.

I am not taking about new players either just the current group of people playing now. The bet gets much tougher if it were any given Dakka poster since, by being a member here, chances are they are more dedicated to miniatures war gaming than most. Even then, I don't think it is automatically either side.

I do figure that non-Primaris marines will eventually be taken to Mount Aarat and all die in glorious combat. At the same time, I don't see that happening any sooner than half-a-decade from now. Games Workshop has gone out of their way to prevent Primaris and non-Primaris marines having the exact overlap even for what seems like the same role. Primaris seem to exist in the small margins of the non-Primaris line always doing things differently than the non-Primaris. Frustratingly so as someone building a Primaris only army. Good example is Terminators, Aggressors and Centurions which all kinda function the same but are just different enough that you are getting something different depending on your choice and don't fill the role quite the same.

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

If I were to be honest, I'd admit to having already "bought" a new army. When I saw Primaris marines, I collected a Tyranid army. My chief interest in playing 40K remains heading out to the club and getting a pick up game with the locals in whatever the current edition is. I'd much rather collect a new faction than replace my marines. So Nids out of spite (because Warriors tower over Primaris). I got some Eldar around, too. When I'm really looking to be spiteful against Primaris, I'll start playing Eldar seriously

Hopefully. They're ugly.

Now if only every primaris release wasn't terrible until 3 rounds of CA points drops.

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

 Stormonu wrote:
If there is an Old/Primaris schism, I have to wonder how they’ll handle offshoot books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - if at all.

Of course, GW isn’t going to announce when they will cut the old marine line off - if they did so they risk being stuck with a bunch of unsold plastic. I’d watch for kits going “out of stock” and not being restocked as the measure of the line’s remaining life. With “online exclusive” being a precursor to the models ascendant demise.

blood angels, space wolves, dark angels etc. will probably get the Black Templar treatment. folded back into the "adeptus astartes" codex with a couple of unique units and thier own chapter rules. probably somethign in the fluff there about them being successor chaptors to their original legions or on the fringes of the imperium, or cut off from it, so not yet taking part in the primaris upgrade

That said I have a bit of a theory that in 9th somehow the space wolf planes and storm ravens will be able to hold primaris marines.call that one just a hunch but they are big expensive kits that are new enough (especially the space wolf ones) that GW will want to keep selling them.

ERJAK wrote:
Hopefully. They're ugly.

They can't be ugly. They've been profitable as ****.

Gitdakka wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

I'd happily convert my BA to primaris if that meant they worked again. But the rules for both primaris and non-primaris are gak, so why bother?

Doubt they will get mothballed anytime soon. There are still too many drawbacks to playing all-Primaris armies.

At my FLGS, we see a lot of people starting Primaris armies, assuming they are the latest and greatest. Eventually, their lists change to include regular Marines.

While this is an anecdote, I can't imagine it's too different elsewhere. I don't think GW is going to get rid of a product that's still selling. Also, it's going to take time for GW to release the supporting units that would make Primaris thrive (like transports, bikes, etc).

@OP:

This was obvious as soon as the first Primaris reared it´s ugly head. I can still remember GW fanboys attacking me for that insight but in the end the revelation gleaned with the help of my crystal ball turned out to be true.

Gitdakka wrote:
I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

Here's my issue with this whole situation:
If GW had just "mothballed" Old Marines at the start of 8E, i.e. released Intercessors that could take special/heavy weapons and stopped selling Tactical Marines entirely, than you COULD still use your Tacticals as those Intercessors.
GW have released new models for old units for YEARS including changing their names and nothing has ever stopped players from being able to use old models when the rules are still there.

The issue with doing this "slow release" is that GW is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. They want to sell Primaris as whoe new units that Vet and new Marine players alike want for their collection. And by doing so, Tactical and Intercessors are considered DIFFERENT units. So when Tacticals eventually go obsolete, there will be resistance to players just using them as Intercessors because they were never the same unit

-

 Stux wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Well I think you are in a minority there. I'm glad you're getting enjoyment from it still though!

I would accept that I might be in the minority. . . but I would say that it's probably in GW's best interest to keep the army supported. I know a LOT of people who have old armies lying around, but just haven't played in years. If they could take that old army to the club and start gaming with it, that's a gateway to more purchases, imo.

I expect it to be fully supported for something like a decade. And eventually they'll be like "it's legal to use Tacticals as Intercessors" and then another few years and they'll quietly drop that. Though in casual games people won't care if you're using your 20 year old sculpts, it'll be a nice novelty to play against even!

I anticipate it being VERY slow.

I think you're delusional.

Old marines have 3 years tops. With gws break neck pace of releases all old characters will get primaris versions in that time. Calgar is the first of many. Old marines are the walking dead.

In short, here's more or less how it'll go. (and we're already seeing some of this).

1) Outside of maybe a random special named character you will not see another "normal" non-Primaris release for loyalist Space Marines. Horus Heresy may continue to be the exception (having the latest "normal" marine squad boxes, etc.) But for main-fluff, going forward? No more releases.

2) The rules will be around for a long time. Short of having a new revised "Primaris" only codex, old marines will exist in the rules and codices for another 5-10 years at minimum. GW has moved on but they're not stupid. There are literally thousands if not millions of players out there who own classic marines, and they're not all immediately replacing their armies with Primaris. So....models? No. Rules, yes.

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening. Generally speaking you'll see a continue power creep...and slowly old marine units will cease getting addressed (rules, points updates, etc.) as we move forward. This then creates point #4.

4) With both actual price and rules getting progressively worse for old units, eventually sales will slow. This in turn will allow GW to justify eventually canning old units and boxes, until old marines are no longer being sold. This may take 10 years or more, but it's coming. It doesn't make any logical sense for GW to sell a product that doesn't move a lot of units. So yes there will be a time when Primaris simply "the" Space Marines. You're already seeing hints at this with the new Apoc box being the first all-Primaris kit that doesn't have Primaris in the title. It's just Space Marines.

Now the people who decry this happening are...well, they're wrong. However they also assume when someone says "old marines are dead", that GW is suddenly going to remove them from the next codex and stop selling the models. GW isn't that dumb. Old marines will be around for a while. Even if GW stopped selling them tomorrow, there are so many friggin' marine kits in existence they'd be around on eBay for 30+ years.

My only point of advice to people is that if you're starting a Space Marine force...there's little reason to start collecting old units. There's a silver lining to this storm cloud though and that's point #5...

5) If you're a Space Marine player or starting to become one....you can generally expect new Primaris units every six months for the next 5 years. That's something you can't say about any other race/army/faction. The Primaris train won't stop. It'll be consistent for a loooong time. Yes the models are mediocre sometimes and the prices are fething stupid. If you can stomach it, though, you have "surprises" every couple of months.

 Galef wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
I dont think the GW buissness model will make them last another 10 years. So if I can use my tacticals for that time then fine by me. And if they happen to ditch marines (wich they wont, its their strongest concept ever created) then I'll just proxy them as the new jazz, if im even still playing the game by then.

Gw are gakking over their fans so bad right now I'm sure they are digging their grave buissness wise.

Here's my issue with this whole situation:
If GW had just "mothballed" Old Marines at the start of 8E, i.e. released Intercessors that could take special/heavy weapons and stopped selling Tactical Marines entirely, than you COULD still use your Tacticals as those Intercessors.
GW have released new models for old units for YEARS including changing their names and nothing has ever stopped players from being able to use old models when the rules are still there.

The issue with doing this "slow release" is that GW is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. They want to sell Primaris as whoe new units that Vet and new Marine players alike want for their collection. And by doing so, Tactical and Intercessors are considered DIFFERENT units. So when Tacticals eventually go obsolete, there will be resistance to players just using them as Intercessors because they were never the same unit
-

It's a waaaaay less controversial route to do what they did, however.

Look at it this way, for marine players, Primaris are like releasing a new marine Chapter, like a new Space Wolves or Blood Angles or even Deathwatch, with their respective iconic units. Except in the case of Primaris, EVERYBODY can take them, as they just add to your existing collection. You don't have to start a new army to use them (although many do), so you throw out the regular barrier to entry, give players what they've wanted (remember all those truescale conversions?), and just let it simmer for a few years.

Imo it's very smart. I don't like the idea that they'll be getting rid of my army (and maybe they still won't), but it is a very clever way to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening.

Yeah. . . they're really not. Only now with the Rapid Fire rules am I even considering taking a unit of Intercessors for competitive reasons. I can't think of a single Primaris unit that is obviously more competitive than a similar traditional one, except maybe the Librarian, which I think costs about the same and is 1 more wound and 1 more attack.

Honestly, I think the switch will be more jarring. Once the primaris line is fleshed out, the next edition will only have primaris rules, but they’ll state (And encourage) on the community site that you can use your oldmarines in place of primaris figures - just not in tournaments. I don’t think they’ll be supporting oldmarines even five years out from now.

 Elbows wrote:
In short, here's more or less how it'll go. (and we're already seeing some of this).

1) Outside of maybe a random special named character you will not see another "normal" non-Primaris release for loyalist Space Marines. Horus Heresy may continue to be the exception (having the latest "normal" marine squad boxes, etc.) But for main-fluff, going forward? No more releases.

2) The rules will be around for a long time. Short of having a new revised "Primaris" only codex, old marines will exist in the rules and codices for another 5-10 years at minimum. GW has moved on but they're not stupid. There are literally thousands if not millions of players out there who own classic marines, and they're not all immediately replacing their armies with Primaris. So....models? No. Rules, yes.

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening. Generally speaking you'll see a continue power creep...and slowly old marine units will cease getting addressed (rules, points updates, etc.) as we move forward. This then creates point #4.

4) With both actual price and rules getting progressively worse for old units, eventually sales will slow. This in turn will allow GW to justify eventually canning old units and boxes, until old marines are no longer being sold. This may take 10 years or more, but it's coming. It doesn't make any logical sense for GW to sell a product that doesn't move a lot of units. So yes there will be a time when Primaris simply "the" Space Marines. You're already seeing hints at this with the new Apoc box being the first all-Primaris kit that doesn't have Primaris in the title. It's just Space Marines.

Now the people who decry this happening are...well, they're wrong. However they also assume when someone says "old marines are dead", that GW is suddenly going to remove them from the next codex and stop selling the models. GW isn't that dumb. Old marines will be around for a while. Even if GW stopped selling them tomorrow, there are so many friggin' marine kits in existence they'd be around on eBay for 30+ years.

My only point of advice to people is that if you're starting a Space Marine force...there's little reason to start collecting old units. There's a silver lining to this storm cloud though and that's point #5...

5) If you're a Space Marine player or starting to become one....you can generally expect new Primaris units every six months for the next 5 years. That's something you can't say about any other race/army/faction. The Primaris train won't stop. It'll be consistent for a loooong time. Yes the models are mediocre sometimes and the prices are fething stupid. If you can stomach it, though, you have "surprises" every couple of months.

I pretty much agree that this is the most likely path.

GW had painted themselves into a corner, as Space Marines are their most popular line, but it was not only complete, it was beyond complete. It includes wildly unnecessary options like Centurions and the Stalker/Hunter. The most obvious things to "add" were revisions on some of the older, less detailed kits (bikes, scouts, maybe terminators). Even that isn't that much.

Primaris allow them to reboot the line, with new models, rules, and fluff, while allowing players to use their old models. I think it's clever.

As for when the old models are removed... it's going to take a while. There are a lot of old marine kits that will likely never be directly replaced, especially when you look at the successors. It will take a looooong time to get to primaris Sanguinary Guard or Black Knights.

As interest in the old marines flags, more and more will go direct only, but that doesn't mean they won't be profitable to keep making. As Elbows speculated, I'm guessing we'll see less availability, less competitive rules, and eventually they full range will exists solely as a relic.

 Elbows wrote:
In short, here's more or less how it'll go. (and we're already seeing some of this).

1) Outside of maybe a random special named character you will not see another "normal" non-Primaris release for loyalist Space Marines. Horus Heresy may continue to be the exception (having the latest "normal" marine squad boxes, etc.) But for main-fluff, going forward? No more releases.

2) The rules will be around for a long time. Short of having a new revised "Primaris" only codex, old marines will exist in the rules and codices for another 5-10 years at minimum. GW has moved on but they're not stupid. There are literally thousands if not millions of players out there who own classic marines, and they're not all immediately replacing their armies with Primaris. So....models? No. Rules, yes.

3) Now the caveat to point #2: rules will get worse. We can see this already happening. Generally speaking you'll see a continue power creep...and slowly old marine units will cease getting addressed (rules, points updates, etc.) as we move forward. This then creates point #4.

4) With both actual price and rules getting progressively worse for old units, eventually sales will slow. This in turn will allow GW to justify eventually canning old units and boxes, until old marines are no longer being sold. This may take 10 years or more, but it's coming. It doesn't make any logical sense for GW to sell a product that doesn't move a lot of units. So yes there will be a time when Primaris simply "the" Space Marines. You're already seeing hints at this with the new Apoc box being the first all-Primaris kit that doesn't have Primaris in the title. It's just Space Marines.

Now the people who decry this happening are...well, they're wrong. However they also assume when someone says "old marines are dead", that GW is suddenly going to remove them from the next codex and stop selling the models. GW isn't that dumb. Old marines will be around for a while. Even if GW stopped selling them tomorrow, there are so many friggin' marine kits in existence they'd be around on eBay for 30+ years.

My only point of advice to people is that if you're starting a Space Marine force...there's little reason to start collecting old units. There's a silver lining to this storm cloud though and that's point #5...

5) If you're a Space Marine player or starting to become one....you can generally expect new Primaris units every six months for the next 5 years. That's something you can't say about any other race/army/faction. The Primaris train won't stop. It'll be consistent for a loooong time. Yes the models are mediocre sometimes and the prices are fething stupid. If you can stomach it, though, you have "surprises" every couple of months.

on number 5 that is really how I look at Primaris. I wait until a new box is a solo release (liek the units from shadowspear) and will grad them as they become available to slowly build up a primaris force. it is actually kind of cool knowing an army is going to get more and more options and building it piece by piece as it is released. like will we be getting reminator or bike equivilants? probably, but which will be first?

Yeah I had to warn my buddy who started collecting Primaris not to stockpile. No point in buying 2-3 of each kit now....if they're not painted by the time new stuff comes out in 3-6 months. Then we saw the teases for all the new units, etc.

Do...not...stockpile Primaris. Just buy a couple boxes, paint them and by the time you're done, you'll probably have more new kits.

PS: Insectum, you can disagree...but I likewise don't agree with your statement. I think a basic Intercessor squad is far better than a current tactical squad, etc. Notice the Intercessor price gap closed to normal tactical marines (which are woefully priced).

 Elbows wrote:
Yeah I had to warn my buddy who started collecting Primaris not to stockpile. No point in buying 2-3 of each kit now....if they're not painted by the time new stuff comes out in 3-6 months. Then we saw the teases for all the new units, etc.

Do...not...stockpile Primaris. Just buy a couple boxes, paint them and by the time you're done, you'll probably have more new kits.

PS: Insectum, you can disagree...but I likewise don't agree with your statement. I think a basic Intercessor squad is far better than a current tactical squad, etc. Notice the Intercessor price gap closed to normal tactical marines (which are woefully priced).

It depends on how you set up your army a bit, but Tacticals with a Heavy or Specials still out-damage Priamris vs.a whole variety of targets. . . plus they get transports that don't cost 300 points. Primaris are fine for bullying lighter infantry, but vs. anything else, Tacticals take the day.

But that's more or less solely based on the Primaris line being thin right now. Out-damaging isn't a big deal when your Primaris squad has 20 wounds vs. 10... for what, three points more per model?

When the Primaris line is fleshed out - there will be zero competition. I think it may take a loooong time though before you see a proper replacement for things like Death Company etc. They could be around for 5-10 years before models eventually replace them.

I don't see Space Marine being completely squatted any time soon. Why?

1. They've been around as the poster boys for too long. It's one thing to squat Tomb Kings. Things which weren't selling amazingly anyway. Classic SM have been the forefront of GW marketing for decades though. To remove them completely would go right against the GW ethos of a model still being usable ten years later.

2. Too many tie-in kits. Wolf upgrade packs, Blood Angels ones, and so on.

3. Popularity. Too many alienated players.

No, we won't see a full squatting. But that doesn't mean things are going to remain the same. A phased withdrawal is likely. When the story next moves forward in time, we'll likely see more Primaris units released, whilst SM classic kits are slowly moved to Direct Order only. We might get a cataclysmic story event to explain how regular marines are becoming rarer (corrupted gene seed from so many generations, some weird Chaos virus, or so on).

Meanwhile,the codex options will then get narrowed down, whilst Primaris Chapter specific rules are bulked out. Primaris will become default for Wolves, Angels, and so on. Small upgrade packs released to mesh with the new kits. A phasing out of the older chapter specific kits will then follow.

Roll on another three four years, another story advance, and the regular space marine codex will be down to a single list at the back of the Primaris codex. Basic entries for 'Dreadnought', 'Terminator', and so on. You'll still be able to play with whatever you have, but the individual flavour will be gone. Meanwhile, whatever kits can be both Primaris and traditional Marine (Predators, Thunderfire Cannons, etc) will be repackaged with new artwork to support the Primaris line.

Then we have a new edition, et voila. Primaris are the default. You can still buy your cheap old marines on ebay and field them, but they won't have particularly good rules. They'll have no new releases (beyond maybe an anniversary character). You might get chapter specific rules for a classic list at the back of a Primaris codex. But they won't be heading the codex up anymore. They won't be on the shelves to buy. Primaris will be the default with chapter upgrade packs and codices for flavour. It'll mean phasing out the odd kit here and there (Space Wolf flying chariot kit, for example), but most of it will just be shuffled in under simplified headings.

All those upgrade kits fit on primaris.

Your points 1 and 3 are the same point. And they both dont matter. The sm line doesnt go away. Its not equivalent to tomb kings. Its a restructure of a line. Not a squating. Sm will still be here. The old models wont.

 Elbows wrote:
But that's more or less solely based on the Primaris line being thin right now. Out-damaging isn't a big deal when your Primaris squad has 20 wounds vs. 10... for what, three points more per model?

When the Primaris line is fleshed out - there will be zero competition. I think it may take a loooong time though before you see a proper replacement for things like Death Company etc. They could be around for 5-10 years before models eventually replace them.

Depends on what your targets are, or if your opponents are dealing in D2 damage weapons anyways.

We'll see what the Primaris shape up to be, but the point is, for now, they're not obviously better. For the Troops choices in SM book, Scouts are infiltrators, Tacticals are damage dealers vs. >=Elite targets, Primaris are tanks vs. <Elite targets. For example, Salamander Tactics and min+Las Tacticals are fantastic, and Tacticals with Plasma/Grav can murder Primaris. 5 Primaris is 85 I think, 5 Tacs with a Las is 90. The choice isn't "what's better?", the choice is "what's the intended role?". That's why the Intercessors aren't replacing Tacs yet.

 Lance845 wrote:
All those upgrade kits fit on primaris.

Sorry, but...Have you actually looked at them? Because old SM torsos aren't really designed to fit on Primaris. Old school boltguns aren't Primaris equipment. The Dark Angel robes? I mean, seriously. At least half the components on your average old chapter specific upgrade sprue aren't really appropriate or a good fit.

Your points 1 and 3 are the same point. And they both dont matter. The sm line doesnt go away. Its not equivalent to tomb kings. Its a restructure of a line. Not a squating. Sm will still be here. The old models wont.

...You're aware you're agreeing with me, right? I used the phrase 'full squatting' to mean doing a Tomb Kings. Which I don't think will happen. For the reasons I gave above. I believe that we're going to see a gradual rolling back of traditional marines in advertising, removal from the shop floor to direct only (they're always under pressure to find shelf space), phasing out of earlier chapter specific upgrade kits in favour of new ones designed to synch up with the Primaris Kits, condensing of the traditional Marine lists to generic entries at the back of Primaris focused codices, and so on.

You'll still be able to buy the basic SM kits and play with your older SM armies. But every year you'll come a little closer to being that guy who walks in with a Lost and the Damned army.

I don't see "old marines" being squatted, so much as primaris becoming the new "normal".

Eg. I have 50 tactical marines....zero intercessors. In a couple of years time, the new "tactical squad" will BE intercessors. So I will just continue to use my old bolter boys as their new 2 wound successors. Shuffle your heavy and special weapon boys into Elite/Heavy support slots and it fits pretty well.

They just need to flesh the line out. Some manner of assault marine, heavy weapon and bike equivalent. Make a Gravis armor "tactical squad and Assault squad" to replace terminators. All the crew of the old vehicles are now primaris......aaand done. Your old marine army is now fully primaris marines...or you can get the new primaris models for additional hotness.

Feels like a way to both replace the old marine line AND upgrades the default space marine profile a level without anything too earth-shattering happening.

 Carnage43 wrote:
I don't see "old marines" being squatted, so much as primaris becoming the new "normal".

Eg. I have 50 tactical marines....zero intercessors. In a couple of years time, the new "tactical squad" will BE intercessors. So I will just continue to use my old bolter boys as their new 2 wound successors. Shuffle your heavy and special weapon boys into Elite/Heavy support slots and it fits pretty well.

They just need to flesh the line out. Some manner of assault marine, heavy weapon and bike equivalent. Make a Gravis armor "tactical squad and Assault squad" to replace terminators. All the crew of the old vehicles are now primaris......aaand done. Your old marine army is now fully primaris marines...or you can get the new primaris models for additional hotness.

Feels like a way to both replace the old marine line AND upgrades the default space marine profile a level without anything too earth-shattering happening.

That really is what should have happened. All marines get the primaris 2A 2W statline. Primaris get their new inflexible loadouts while the old squad comps keep their flexible loadout but perhaps pay a premium for it. Intercessors and Tacticals can be the same since Intercessors get better bolters instead of special/heavy.

It seems to me that the sensible thing to do is to break them into separate codexes for ninth ed or even before.
Have the fluff make them in different companies or whatever.
You can ally fully but detachments must be fully old school marines or primaris, they even get to double the codexes they sell.
The old school range is still a modern line of sculpts compared to a lot of armies and I'm sure will outsell plenty of armies if still an option.
I'm sure there's plenty of money to go round for power armour in the future.

I don't believe that Oldmarines have crap rules to ensure that Primaris sell better. Loads of brand new releases have had initially underwhelming rules, including Primaris models.

Yeah, GW is pretty bad internally about writing good rules; I’m sure from the start they have been trying to skew the rules to make Primaris more appetizing, but we’ve seen that hasn’t really worked for them. If they were to try harder to really discourage oldmarines, it would likely backfire dramatically and explosively.

right now there's no evidance old marines arte going away, and everything said here is baseless speculation. the "core kits" tactical devestator and assault marines for marines are not that old. (if you include the MK IV and III kits,they're all less then 5 years old) so they'll likely be around awhile. what we might start to see though is More and more old Marine stuff becoming direct order only. my guess is in a decade or less the shelves of your local GW store will be exclusivly primaris stuff, but all old Marine stuff will be orderable online. and thats already beginning. Land Raiders are now direct to order


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 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, GW is pretty bad internally about writing good rules; I’m sure from the start they have been trying to skew the rules to make Primaris more appetizing, but we’ve seen that hasn’t really worked for them. If they were to try harder to really discourage oldmarines, it would likely backfire dramatically and explosively.

skew the rules for primaris from the start? hardly they've been pricing primaris VERY VERY conservitively

I think they're still figuring it out honestly, I think primaris and death guard are both products of what was intended to blow up 40k, their designs are significant departures, far more detailed, and encourage a considerably smaller number of models on the board.

And then the reaction to AOS happened and they haven't really been able to sort out which of the aspects of it was most to blame for it so they aborted and we got the 8th we've got.

I would be very surprised if we saw new old marines ever again. But I bet you we'll see more design callbacks to iconic old marine pieces in future primaris along with more radical departures. I just hope they don't let them bloat as much.

that's entirely possiable. it's also possiable they planned to be cautious and test the waters from the get go, I mean Marines make up 60% of GW sales, so they'd be understandably very very careful about killing the goost that laid the golden egg. I tend to agree it's unlikely we'll get any old Marine kits but... what do we need? Old Marines is a pretty complete range. hence the bloat.

kingheff wrote:
It seems to me that the sensible thing to do is to break them into separate codexes for ninth ed or even before.
Have the fluff make them in different companies or whatever.
You can ally fully but detachments must be fully old school marines or primaris, they even get to double the codexes they sell.
The old school range is still a modern line of sculpts compared to a lot of armies and I'm sure will outsell plenty of armies if still an option.
I'm sure there's plenty of money to go round for power armour in the future.

I'd say they're already well on the way to a soft division already.

Mini-marines function quite a bit better than Primaris in a Deathwatch list due to how much more SIA helps Stormbolter Veterans than it helps Intercessors, and the DW Primaris squad is a lot more awkward to use.

Meanwhile Suppressors are quite a bit more on-meta than anything you can build with a Devestator squad and Lasfusil Eliminators look like they might match Lascannon Devs while being quite a bit harder to shift. Odds are once Primaris start getting melee options with actual melee weapons they will similarly outshine Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets.

I still think anyone with a lot of mini-marines should have an exit strategy for them, be it DW or Renegade Marines. I keep thinking about preemptively picking up some Daemons, but I'm trying not to take that step until I have to.

Meanwhile Suppressors are quite a bit more on-meta than anything you can build with a Devestator squad and Lasfusil Eliminators look like they might match Lascannon Devs while being quite a bit harder to shift.

and will likely be pointed approperately, (by approperatly I mean "too high")

BrianDavion wrote:

Meanwhile Suppressors are quite a bit more on-meta than anything you can build with a Devestator squad and Lasfusil Eliminators look like they might match Lascannon Devs while being quite a bit harder to shift.

and will likely be pointed approperately, (by approperatly I mean "too high")

Maybe, maybe not. Consider that a Havoc squad with three Auto Cannons would come in at 95 points; Suppressors are up one wound, AP 2 instead of AP 1, and can leave melee and still shoot if something sweeping advances into them for just 10 more points and giving up a couple of Boltguns that you probably try not to get close enough to use anyway. I'd probably take the Suppressors over the Havocs if I had the option.

The baseline Eliminator squad is 72 points with a gun that is definitely better than a 2 point Sniper Rifle.
Even being conservative (and by that I mean figuring GW priced the Bolt Sniper Rifle really badly) the base unit is at most 66 points, only one point more than a Devastator squad. If the Lasfusil doesn't wind up at a blatantly incorrect price it would put the comparisons between Lasfusil Eliminators and Lascannon Devs in a very similar spot to the Suppressor vs AC Havocs comparison.

Admittedly the Lasfusile not winding up blatantly mispointed is a coin toss.

RevlidRas wrote:
It's a little strange to claim that Oldmarines have crap rules to ensure that Primaris sell better, considering loads of brand new releases have had crap rules lately, including Primaris models.

I appreciate that it's comforting to assume a grand conspiracy driving Games Workshop to cynically undermine its game design for the sake of encouraging people to buy The Next Big Thing. I get that. But isn't it more likely they're just bad at writing rules in general?

Actually I think its a grand consipraicy to undermine the 1.0 Marines for the grand new thing, and as much for balance as anything else. I think the Primaris Project is an attempt to rebalance Marines to deal with the MEQ armies who have a 3+ and a (something - i.e Reanimation protocols, Custodes, etc) A 20 wound Intercessor Squad is ~170 points. A 10 wound Tactical Squad is... ~170 points. Old Marines will be cost effective for what they do until they have a replacement. As soon as Assault Primaris Marines - Belligerators - the next edition they and assault marines will be the same price. And Belligerators will be better.

I Think they're going to let the players "squad" the old marines all by themselves by making Primaris a more attractive game choice. Better squads for the same points. Let the old marines fill in the holes while the studio gets the new models and rules read. The natural tendency for players to make better lists will phase out the 1.0 Marines all on it's own. They won't have to do anything.

I don't think the slow release of the Primaris line has anything to do with some grand strategy of weaning people off older marines and onto Primaris. I think it has everything to do with not having enough time to create the models, create the fluff, and create the rules. And maybe a little to do with not overwhelming people with a giant wish/shopping list.

If they were the marketing geniuses everyone here thinks they are, they would have released Contrast Paints (the time equivalent to one or two model kits bought, assembled and painted for an average collector) before they released Primaris. By doing it so far after all the already released Primaris people are going to have the dilemma over whether to switch to contrast, or stick to classic to maintain their aesthetic.

I think the use of the word "conspiracy" is pretty silly here, but that's kind of the thing to do now on the internet. It's not a conspiracy. It's simply a logical and sound business strategy of how to move from old marines to Primaris and eventually kill off the old marine line in the (likely) distant future.

There's nothing conspiratorial about it. Admittedly GW isn't going to come out and present it like that publicly, but that's just being smart. GW didn't become a roaring success over the past few years by making products simply based on the goodness of their hearts...they're a very calculating business. That's not a bad thing. Pretending they're not acting in their best interest at all times....that's the silly part.

It's not a conspiracy, it's basic business sense. The new shiny gets the most attention.

I doubt we'll see many if any new old Marines now, but at the same time I expect GW'll sell em and support em rules wise. Primaris may have been introduced to solve a logistical issue. Old Marines have hit a point design wise where they where as good, model wise, as they where going to get. to go further they'd have to change the basic design. (see the new CSMs as a good example) but if they tried to do this change voer with regular marines it would be... disruptive, considering the number of interchangable kits. So Primaris may just be GW trying to have their cake and eat it too

BrianDavion wrote:
that's entirely possiable. it's also possiable they planned to be cautious and test the waters from the get go, I mean Marines make up 60% of GW sales, so they'd be understandably very very careful about killing the goost that laid the golden egg. I tend to agree it's unlikely we'll get any old Marine kits but... what do we need? Old Marines is a pretty complete range. hence the bloat.

Oldmarines are beyond complete, it's a guy in power armor, wrapped in bubble wrap that has it's own power armor and his twelve dozen extra specialer friends. I genuinely thought the description of centurions was satire of 40k back when I first heard of them, and it just kept going from there.

Look at some of the other factions, like GSC(exclusively, not including IG or nids), they're very nearly a complete faction with what they have. Hell, there's already a bit of character bloat. And either toss super heavies from the game or give them one of their own and they'll be more or less a complete concept(look GW, you said macro rig, I just want to see it ok). There's 30 store entries for that, which is roughly how many units they have.

Now look at old marines. 100 or so entries there discounting primaris. Most other factions? 30 to 50. And all those extra kits manage what? It's certainly not generate a clean design space. It's mostly "Lets see how many more gun barrels we can cram onto one model" or "Hey, these guys are the elite of the elite of the elite of the elite only better with a 3+ invun!".

What needs to happen is all the old marines suddenly catch crib death and we clear the table for a less bloated faction. But that would make people real angry, so we got a half solution where we slowly, quietly, suffocate one more old marine every night until they're all gone and primaris have a complete range. That, or compress the design space by declaring all overly special marines to simply be one customizable class of veteran marines allowing people to keep their bling and clear enough room that perhaps tacticals could matter again. But I somehow imagine that'd generate an even worse reaction.

BrianDavion wrote:
I doubt we'll see many if any new old Marines now, but at the same time I expect GW'll sell em and support em rules wise. Primaris may have been introduced to solve a logistical issue. Old Marines have hit a point design wise where they where as good, model wise, as they where going to get. to go further they'd have to change the basic design. (see the new CSMs as a good example) but if they tried to do this change voer with regular marines it would be... disruptive, considering the number of interchangable kits. So Primaris may just be GW trying to have their cake and eat it too

I think they went Primaris to try and rebalance marines in the game, not over any sort of miniature thing. So many MEQ armies have MEQ plus some special army defining ability/gimmick. They don't want to make Space Marines cheaper/less effective than those armies so they're trying to raise Marines to that level rather than knock down the supersoldier hobbyist drawing power of Marines.

There was a time when when I'd rant and rave about this but now?

Call this a lament.

I started collecting marines way way back when 40k appeared and I've been hooked ever since. While the basic plastic marines from 2nd weren't great, I still happily bought,built and painted them. With 3rd, we got the highly detailed kits. I got a buzz everytime I opened a box.

With Primaris, it was very different. Seeing the first pictures of them, I didn't get that 'buzz' that I had got in the past. I did get the first boxed set,just to see what they were like. After building them, I didn't feel any urge to do anything with them, which was odd. Then I realised I don't have any affinity with them. Yes, they are marines but to me they are not the marines I know.

Lately I have been raiding Ebay for standard marine tactical squads,so far about 130 of them, kind of building up a stock for projects ongoing. I won't actually buy any primaris stuff as my era of 40k seems to be coming to an end which is sad, but ho-hum.

What I will say is that I think Primaris are for the regular players of the game, whereas the standard ones have more appeal to the collectors and painters like myself who don't really play anymore.

Some of you mention that marine players probably had more than enough to construct their armies, and so maybe weren't buying enough of the range, so that's why GW brought in Primaris.

What I will ask is;
1) Would it have made more sense to have brought in MK9 armour marines instead of Primaris? And gradually replaced the range that way, like replacing a MK8 tactical squad with a MK9 squad boxset?
2) More armour variiants and even more new vehicles? I know the fluff states that technology is difficult in the 40k universe, but if you can build one tank you can build another slightly different or are the engineers really that stupid?

I think that things like that could have been done and it would have rejuvenated the marine range, instead of expecting players/collectors/modelers to go back to square one and start from scratch.

I'm not leaving 40k, just staying at a point that I find enjoyable.And, as long as I can find what I want on Ebay and at a reasonable price then I'll continue!

As I said, not a moan or a complaint, just a Lament.

I've only recently started collecting Marines, which is odd as I have been playing 40K from 2nd edition (Eldar and Tyranids were my go to). What made me collect Marines for the first time were the Horus Heresy era models. So far I have 2 boxes of Betrayal at Calth, and I plan on expanding the collection.

Primaris don't really interest me, just bigger more specialised Marines.

So even if the old Marine line is complete, which it was at the end of 4th edition, theyy will still sell.

I do wonder if GW are planning on either updating the lines for all the factions or shifting the focus for all factions. Eldar and Tyranids do have some very old kits. If GW don't replace them they may introduce a new unit that performs better and let the older unit slowly die off. It makes business sense to keep the lines robust and fresh.

The new start collecting spacewolves box is all Primaris. Shock and Awe.

Interesting to see if that Primaris Wolves SC runs alongside or replaces the mini marine one.

Hmm. Might have to pick up the outgoing SW SC. I’ve been wanting some Thunderwolves for my Dark Angels counts-as.

phillv85 wrote:
Interesting to see if that Primaris Wolves SC runs alongside or replaces the mini marine one.

agreed, it's possiable this won't replace the old SW SC but suppelment it. note that it's not called "start collecting Space Wolves" but "Start Collecting Primaris Space Wolves" so it could not displace the old SW SC box. (in which case the absolute best place to start a Space Wolf army would be to buy one of each box)




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YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that's entirely possiable. it's also possiable they planned to be cautious and test the waters from the get go, I mean Marines make up 60% of GW sales, so they'd be understandably very very careful about killing the goost that laid the golden egg. I tend to agree it's unlikely we'll get any old Marine kits but... what do we need? Old Marines is a pretty complete range. hence the bloat.

Oldmarines are beyond complete, it's a guy in power armor, wrapped in bubble wrap that has it's own power armor and his twelve dozen extra specialer friends. I genuinely thought the description of centurions was satire of 40k back when I first heard of them, and it just kept going from there.

Look at some of the other factions, like GSC(exclusively, not including IG or nids), they're very nearly a complete faction with what they have. Hell, there's already a bit of character bloat. And either toss super heavies from the game or give them one of their own and they'll be more or less a complete concept(look GW, you said macro rig, I just want to see it ok). There's 30 store entries for that, which is roughly how many units they have.

Now look at old marines. 100 or so entries there discounting primaris. Most other factions? 30 to 50. And all those extra kits manage what? It's certainly not generate a clean design space. It's mostly "Lets see how many more gun barrels we can cram onto one model" or "Hey, these guys are the elite of the elite of the elite of the elite only better with a 3+ invun!".

What needs to happen is all the old marines suddenly catch crib death and we clear the table for a less bloated faction. But that would make people real angry, so we got a half solution where we slowly, quietly, suffocate one more old marine every night until they're all gone and primaris have a complete range. That, or compress the design space by declaring all overly special marines to simply be one customizable class of veteran marines allowing people to keep their bling and clear enough room that perhaps tacticals could matter again. But I somehow imagine that'd generate an even worse reaction.

getting rid of old Marines would have been a horriable idea. people like the range. but at the same time the range suffers from the flaws of being, as you said "beyond complete" units like the Centurion imply GW essentially have reached the end of the ideas they can have for standard Marines. also the kits themselves, GW is limited buy the number of basic marine kits that are all intended to be interchangeable. they'd never be able to do a drastic rework of the range well keeping them all at basic marines, it'd be a logistical nightmare and proably not very popular.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

I would be very surprised if we saw new old marines ever again. But I bet you we'll see more design callbacks to iconic old marine pieces in future primaris along with more radical departures. I just hope they don't let them bloat as much.

Bloat is already there in droves. We have 5 varieties of bolt gun already! Not to mention bolt storm etc

Not for a long time, but they are not the main focus anymore. They are a complete range.

It is flawed in many ways however, and the Primaris don't share the same design errors. To simply bring in a new armour mark is not the answer. The range needs optimising, streamlining and a minor design re-boot. Hence we have Primaris.

Slipstream wrote:
There was a time when when I'd rant and rave about this but now?
Call this a lament.
I started collecting marines way way back when 40k appeared and I've been hooked ever since. While the basic plastic marines from 2nd weren't great, I still happily bought,built and painted them. With 3rd, we got the highly detailed kits. I got a buzz everytime I opened a box.
With Primaris, it was very different. Seeing the first pictures of them, I didn't get that 'buzz' that I had got in the past. I did get the first boxed set,just to see what they were like. After building them, I didn't feel any urge to do anything with them, which was odd. Then I realised I don't have any affinity with them. Yes, they are marines but to me they are not the marines I know.
Lately I have been raiding Ebay for standard marine tactical squads,so far about 130 of them, kind of building up a stock for projects ongoing. I won't actually buy any primaris stuff as my era of 40k seems to be coming to an end which is sad, but ho-hum.
What I will say is that I think Primaris are for the regular players of the game, whereas the standard ones have more appeal to the collectors and painters like myself who don't really play anymore.

For me, it’s the opposite.

When I see how model ranges ‘change’ over the years, I’m reminded of stuff I learned in school about genetic ‘drift’ and genetic ‘shift’. Briefly, in the case in the former, it is a slow, gradual accumulation of changes in a population that over a certain period of time (or even geographical distance) result in an entirely different species. In the case of the latter, it is generally a sudden sharp, (typically environmental in nature) pressure that forces a sudden change in a population (typically in terms of ‘attractive’ traits, that were up to this point marginal, or irrelevant, but all of a sudden, are now suddenly useful – an example most people are familiar with being the black and white moths and the industrial revolution).

I use the terms ‘drift’ and ‘shift’ loosely with regard to 40k, with the slow, gradual accumulations in the SM line as ‘drift’ and the sudden change/introduction of Primaris as a ‘shift’.

I remember as a kid being intrigued by 40k for years before I was finally able to get into it properly. This was 3rd ed 40k by the way. When I did, it was with Space Wolves. Back then, it was the ‘classic’ SM tactical box, and the ‘classic’ Space Wolves pack box. Both felt to me to be no-nonsense kits. Nothing over the top. Space Wolves felt like Marines with a Viking/barbarian flavour. Marines were marines. And then, over the years, things started to change, and the new SM models were slowly, but subtly blinged up. More and more so with every new release. First time I noted it was thr 4th ed tyrannic war veterans, and veteran SM. With robes and greebles. Still felt more ‘marine’ than ‘ornament’ though. But over time, for me, the sense of ‘ornament’ began to eclipse the ‘marine’. Sternguard and vanguard were the 'this is getting over the top' point for me. It got ridiculous by the time 5th ed was around, with Space Wolves changing from Marines with a Viking/barbarian flavour to becoming a barbarian/wolf cartoon, with a tiny amount of Space Marine flavour. Blood Angels were ‘blood-nouns’. And for me, the high (or rather low point of this) was Marneus Calgar and his honour guard. Specifically, the model I refer to as ‘wing-face’. For me, by this point Marines had ‘drifted’ to the point where they had gotten silly. Very silly. There was nothing that said 'marine' about them. It was all about the bling. And the ornaments. They stopped being Marines and started being walking chalices. There was nothing 'no-nonsense' about them. They were a cartoon parody of what they’d been. Lumier from beauty and the beast had a stronger space marine aesthetic than some of the walking tabernackles that gw were producing.

It became all too clear to me when I came across an awesome model company called Anvil Industry and their sublime ‘Exo-lord’ range. Specifically, the black ops ‘ahem, totally-not-marines’ range. Here were no-nonsense 'marines'. No bling. No ornaments. No faff. No silly crap. Just pouches, grenades, knives, spare magazines. Thry felt and looked like geared up badasses ready to go and crack some skulls. They were Maybe a tiny bit ‘tacti-cool’ but all of a sudden I had the ‘look’ that I wanted. And as I saw them, I knew gw marines had completely lost that 'look' and I wished gw marines were more like anvil exo-lords.

So then a wee bit later and GW releases Primaris, and the long genetic ‘drift’ that had, for me, defined and undermined marines for too long suddenly ended with a decisive ‘shift’ to a model that was, again, no-nonsense marines. No bling. No ornaments. No faffs. Just perfectly, what id always wanted marines to be.

Truth be told, marines had stopped being marines for me a long time ago. Primaris ended the foolishness and brought them back in line with what id always wanted them to be.

Slipstream wrote:

What I will ask is;
1) Would it have made more sense to have brought in MK9 armour marines instead of Primaris? And gradually replaced the range that way, like replacing a MK8 tactical squad with a MK9 squad boxset?
2) More armour variiants and even more new vehicles? I know the fluff states that technology is difficult in the 40k universe, but if you can build one tank you can build another slightly different or are the engineers really that stupid?
I think that things like that could have been done and it would have rejuvenated the marine range, instead of expecting players/collectors/modelers to go back to square one and start from scratch.

1) don't know. It risks being Malibu Stacy, just with a new hat. I mean, is it functionally the 'same' old kit, in terms of rules? Comparisons with the hh mkiii and Mkiv armours don't link, as they were pushing 30k. Mk8 armours is just a facelift on mk7. Here's the thing. The majority of what 'sells' in this industry is 'new' stuff, hence the 'wave' nature of releases. You need 'new' stuff to sell. And the marine range was essentially mined out.doing a facelift, but functionally not changing anything risks a lot of backblast, because it's gw not even trying something new, and just doing a face lift on their range. Why would people buy 'new' tactical marines under these circumstances? Would they sell? Would it solve gw's problems of 'where can we go next with marines?' Don't just think this year. Think, like gw, in terms of can this work for ten years. At least with primaris, they gained the opportunity to reset, reboot, open up a whole new area of design space to mine.
2) don't know. They've been doing this for years, maybe they just ran out of new hats to give to Malibu stacy. Could gw have looked at the previous sales numbers for this approach, and maybe determined they couldn't just continue doing this?

I couldn't agree more about the over bling sentiment of the classic line.
They actually ran out of ideas long ago. We don't need 4 Terminator variants just in the vanilla codex, we don't need multiple veteran units with different datasheets that are almost exactly the same. The Sternguard and some of the HQ's looks ridiculous and wouldn't even be able to walk in real life.

I'm baffled that people want MORE armour marks on the same Marines. How many more redundant units do people want for the line? In effect you don't want anything new and improved, just more confusing variation.
The Primaris resemble the Horus Heresy Astartes that are incredibly popular. Many people see the 30k Marine designs as the best. Well here you go - Primaris are more true to that aesthetic and function.

GW made mistakes with classic Marines. Their lore limited their growth, they flooded the market with loads of silly blinged up versions of units. SW in particular started to get pretty silly. Blood Angels perhaps went too far. The new Primaris offer much better looking units that have a more clear and defined function.

Old Marines are not getting moth-balled. They'll be supported in production and rules for many years to come. Primaris Marines will be the new main focus and have been gradually introduced. Anyone has the time to build up a force at a nice, friendly pace.

 Ishagu wrote:
I couldn't agree more about the over bling sentiment of the classic line.
They actually ran out of ideas long ago. We don't need 4 Terminator variants just in the vanilla codex, we don't need multiple veteran units with different datasheets that are almost exactly the same. The Sternguard and some of the HQ's looks ridiculous and wouldn't even be able to walk in real life.

I'm baffled that people want MORE armour marks on the same Marines. How many more redundant units do people want for the line? In effect you don't want anything new and improved, just more confusing variation.
The Primaris resemble the Horus Heresy Astartes that are incredibly popular. Many people see the 30k Marine designs as the best. Well here you go - Primaris are more true to that aesthetic and function.

GW made mistakes with classic Marines. Their lore limited their growth, they flooded the market with loads of silly blinged up versions of units. SW in particular started to get pretty silly. Blood Angels perhaps went too far. The new Primaris offer much better looking units that have a more clear and defined function.

Old Marines are not getting moth-balled. They'll be supported in production and rules for many years to come. Primaris Marines will be the new main focus and have been gradually introduced. Anyone has the time to build up a force at a nice, friendly pace.

We have 4 terminators variants because the plastics were made for HH and it was daft not to include them in 40k they are also distinct with trade off’s made in the rules.

As for redundant units remind me again of the entire Primaris range which units are “not” redundant compared to hell blasters. Also even in the very limited case of weapon options for Primaris units there is a correct choice and then the redundant other options.

Hmmm new and “improved” eh while the aesthetics are debatable and I’m not sure what original models the Repulsive and Fat Dread are supposed to look better than, on the rules side Primaris are a dumpster fire of epic proportions I mean an all Primaris force is not an auto lose well as long as 50% of your points are Hellblasters anyway :p

The Primaris only resemble the 30k legions in the sense of being pale knock offs looked at through the lens of the main studio that inflicted Wolfe mc wolffyson of the wolves and bloody blood man of the blood marines with the blood sword on the original marines, and if you don’t think that gak is heading towards the Giganto marines in the near future I have a bridge to sell you.
The Primaris tacticool Call of Dutah models bare no resemblance to the 30k marines at all. The 30k marines have character and style the Primaris are the definition of bland just like there rules.

Limited there lore growth dear god the lore is the point without the lore you get .... well Primaris a faction with all the personality of a love island contestant. The only personality is likely to come from embiggening existing characters and taking over existing chapters which is kinda ironic.

Also if you think most proper marines are not direct only by this time next year then you are definitely the kind customer GW likes.

The fat dread is nice looking, but I hate him because every time someone goes to shoot him they assume he's T8. Aesthetic is subjective anyway. I personally like the look of the new dreadnought and it makes sense for there to be extra armour around the box that houses the body as opposed to putting it on display at center mass.

I also wouldn't say anything is supposed to look better than anything unless it's supposed to be a direct replacement, abaddon for instance. Rules wise could you imagine the outrage if Primaris were outright better across the board, I know I wouldn't be pleased about it.

I still don't get this tacticool argument? Do soldiers not have pouches in real life? That extra ammo has to go somewhere or do marines walk into battle with one magazine?

To me Primaris marines are super soldiers in armour, I like bling and stuff for characters and veterans but otherwise my marines have no extra stuff I'm very conservative with extra bits. Ironically my Primaris models have the most extra bits of all my marines thanks to all the pouches they come with that also look correct and have a place

SeanDrake wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I couldn't agree more about the over bling sentiment of the classic line.
They actually ran out of ideas long ago. We don't need 4 Terminator variants just in the vanilla codex, we don't need multiple veteran units with different datasheets that are almost exactly the same. The Sternguard and some of the HQ's looks ridiculous and wouldn't even be able to walk in real life.

I'm baffled that people want MORE armour marks on the same Marines. How many more redundant units do people want for the line? In effect you don't want anything new and improved, just more confusing variation.
The Primaris resemble the Horus Heresy Astartes that are incredibly popular. Many people see the 30k Marine designs as the best. Well here you go - Primaris are more true to that aesthetic and function.

GW made mistakes with classic Marines. Their lore limited their growth, they flooded the market with loads of silly blinged up versions of units. SW in particular started to get pretty silly. Blood Angels perhaps went too far. The new Primaris offer much better looking units that have a more clear and defined function.

Old Marines are not getting moth-balled. They'll be supported in production and rules for many years to come. Primaris Marines will be the new main focus and have been gradually introduced. Anyone has the time to build up a force at a nice, friendly pace.

We have 4 terminators variants because the plastics were made for HH and it was daft not to include them in 40k they are also distinct with trade off’s made in the rules.

As for redundant units remind me again of the entire Primaris range which units are “not” redundant compared to hell blasters. Also even in the very limited case of weapon options for Primaris units there is a correct choice and then the redundant other options.

Hmmm new and “improved” eh while the aesthetics are debatable and I’m not sure what original models the Repulsive and Fat Dread are supposed to look better than, on the rules side Primaris are a dumpster fire of epic proportions I mean an all Primaris force is not an auto lose well as long as 50% of your points are Hellblasters anyway :p

The Primaris only resemble the 30k legions in the sense of being pale knock offs looked at through the lens of the main studio that inflicted Wolfe mc wolffyson of the wolves and bloody blood man of the blood marines with the blood sword on the original marines, and if you don’t think that gak is heading towards the Giganto marines in the near future I have a bridge to sell you.
The Primaris tacticool Call of Dutah models bare no resemblance to the 30k marines at all. The 30k marines have character and style the Primaris are the definition of bland just like there rules.

Limited there lore growth dear god the lore is the point without the lore you get .... well Primaris a faction with all the personality of a love island contestant. The only personality is likely to come from embiggening existing characters and taking over existing chapters which is kinda ironic.

Also if you think most proper marines are not direct only by this time next year then you are definitely the kind customer GW likes.

Sounds like you're pretty set in your ways. You should collect old Marines or another faction. There are no redundant Primaris units because they all have a different functions. What's the point of Tyrannic War Veterans when you have Sternguard? How about Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans? How about a Company Ancient and Chapter Ancient? This is what I'm talking about when I mention bloat and redundancy.

I hope on the classic vs normal marines we will see more what GW did with dark angels, blood angels and space wolves... but better as they started doing mroe and mroe distinguishing kits. space wolves having thier hq dred, wolvees, wolf riders, flyer etc. I just worry if GW does the same thing with Primaris that they did with classic marines but keep up releasing kits at the current rater that the primaris range will be as overcomplete and redundant as the previous space marine line and we will have to enter Space marines 3.0. Cawl finds the old Ravenguard research splices it with thunder warrior dna plus primaris to stabilizer and boom they have their next line.

I already wish GW had not put all of the Primaris in the specialist codexes. Hellblasters should be vanilla codex, another kit for blood angels, another one for space wolves, dark angels. I worry at this rate space marines will be oversaturated with kits (and I think they worry about it already hence all of the lieutenant models)

I actually hope they consolidate all factions into one book.
You can make them unique wit access to special characters, strats, relics, etc

If all Astartes are in one book it means all chapters get updated simultaneously.

 G00fySmiley wrote:


I already wish GW had not put all of the Primaris in the specialist codexes. Hellblasters should be vanilla codex, another kit for blood angels, another one for space wolves, dark angels. I worry at this rate space marines will be oversaturated with kits (and I think they worry about it already hence all of the lieutenant models)

That would have been insanely frustrating. The special codices are a pox that causes stuff to be spread all over instead of us having one big smorgasbord with a lot of choices which lets you combine whatever we want. I am already annoyed that some Primaris Lieutenants have chapter-locked gear choices.

In reality GW probably simply do not have long term plans. I mean look at any edition, they got an idea, they start following it, and then changing their mind at 180 degree half way.
I was almost sure there will be chaos primaris marines with 2 wounds, but nope, they release classic little upscaled ones two years after dark imperium. So I'll not be surprised, if we will get upscaled loyalists one day, because, well, if they think peeps could buy 13pts spiky tactical, why shouldn't they buy blue boys too? Or not, it's gw.

 Crimson wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:


I already wish GW had not put all of the Primaris in the specialist codexes. Hellblasters should be vanilla codex, another kit for blood angels, another one for space wolves, dark angels. I worry at this rate space marines will be oversaturated with kits (and I think they worry about it already hence all of the lieutenant models)

That would have been insanely frustrating. The special codices are a pox that causes stuff to be spread all over instead of us having one big smorgasbord with a lot of choices which lets you combine whatever we want. I am already annoyed that some Primaris Lieutenants have chapter-locked gear choices.

I like the differentiating units personally. But if GW did combine them into 1 codex that might work too on the unit front. I just know GW will keep releasing new kits for marines and suddenly it will be bloat city again in another edition or 2.

Though I suppose maybe if they keep releasing and expanding other imperium lines it might last longer. as imperial soup will get more and more options.

In the long term mini-marines will continue to have a place as long as Chaos doesn't get Primaris Marines and mini-marines continue to work better than Primaris marines do in Deathwatch (and they really really do).

Their margin continues to get narrower in a vanilla army though. It's a pretty safe bet that eventually your Scout, Tac, Dev, and Assault squads are going to be a poor choice as anything besides stand-ins for Intercessor, Infiltrator, Hellblaster, Eliminator, and Inceptor squads eventually if you don't want to convert them to Deathwatch allies.

It will take many years but you will slowly see them getting phased out. Personally I like the look of the primaris better. I can see em keeping the vehicles though, and maybe putting out a new tank sprue that has a primaris gunner popping up with a stormbolt-rifle or something

 Stormonu wrote:
If there is an Old/Primaris schism, I have to wonder how they’ll handle offshoot books like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves - if at all.

Of course, GW isn’t going to announce when they will cut the old marine line off - if they did so they risk being stuck with a bunch of unsold plastic. I’d watch for kits going “out of stock” and not being restocked as the measure of the line’s remaining life. With “online exclusive” being a precursor to the models ascendant demise.

l

DA don't like primaris, BA are already 50%+ primaris, though there are chapters like the flesh tearers that despise them.

Old marines will still be around, more or less. GW will keep Rhinos and Land Raiders around. They'll just be for HH. By keeping HH mini marine sized GW will be able to differentiate the two games. Thereby maintaining the need for a 40k player to have many, many different kinds of SM armies.

Old Marines are on life support. 'Spears of the Emperor' confirms their demise.



Black Library is generally ahead of the table top by a year or two. So when Black Library is basically writing the phase out of Old Marines, then don't expect them to recieve new rules anytime soon. They are done. Kaput. Kicked the bucket.

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks. (IMHO, BORING).

 SickSix wrote:

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks.

Good.

 SickSix wrote:
Old Marines are on life support. 'Spears of the Emperor' confirms their demise.

Spoiler:

In 'Spears' they convert a severely wounded normal marine to a Primaris marine, in the apothacarion of a Cruiser. And you know what they call the procedure? Calgarian rites.

Black Library is generally ahead of the table top by a year or two. So when Black Library is basically writing the phase out of Old Marines, then don't expect them to recieve new rules anytime soon. They are done. Kaput. Kicked the bucket.

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks. (IMHO, BORING).

The price for getting rid of mary sue wulfen.

That would be a silver lining, for sure.

 SickSix wrote:
Old Marines are on life support. 'Spears of the Emperor' confirms their demise.

Spoiler:

In 'Spears' they convert a severely wounded normal marine to a Primaris marine, in the apothacarion of a Cruiser. And you know what they call the procedure? Calgarian rites.

Black Library is generally ahead of the table top by a year or two. So when Black Library is basically writing the phase out of Old Marines, then don't expect them to recieve new rules anytime soon. They are done. Kaput. Kicked the bucket.

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks. (IMHO, BORING).

you realize Calgar was updated to a Primaris Marine on table top like 6 months ago right? that mariens can be updated is hardly proof the sky is falling.

Voss wrote:

DA don't like primaris, BA are already 50%+ primaris, though there are chapters like the flesh tearers that despise them.

Blood Angels are about 75% Primaris after the Desolation of Baal. Dante estimated no more than 300 had survived.

SickSix wrote:

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks. (IMHO, BORING).

I doubt the Death Company are gone. The rage always returns, the final entry in the BA timeline hints at it. One of the studio guys stated the Wulfen were made fit into a primaris army. I'm drawing a blank on the guy's name.

My guess is the current codexes will remain, so you can continue to use your old marines.But will get over shadowed by a new primaris only codex. Future campaign books will add specialist units to the primaris range. Worse case scenario there will be a gap.

 Ishagu wrote:
d and some of the HQ's looks ridiculous and wouldn't even be able to walk in real life.

I'm baffled that people want MORE armour marks on the same Marines. How many more redundant units do people want for the line?

Armor Marks that have no rules difference? There's no confusion and no redundancy. It's a cosmetic function only. Some like beakies, some like Mark III, some like Mark 8. But they all function the same. I wish more games did this. World of Warcraft has a new aesthetic every expansion. I would have been thrilled if they gave us a graphics option to paint every model in X expansion so you could pick the look you like best and see everyone in that way. Obviously not possible in 40K with physical models, but let each player run their own Armor Marks works for me. If they want to play a very old Chapter with lots of old armor, have at it. If they want to run a new one that doesn't have much of any hand-me-downs good for them.

and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

SeanDrake wrote:


We have 4 terminators variants because the plastics were made for HH and it was daft not to include them in 40k they are also distinct with trade off’s made in the rules.

I absolutely agree it would have been daft not to include the other Terminator suits in 40K. I don't know that they needed individual rules, with tradeoffs. There's no individual rules for Mark Beakies, and Crusaders etc.

Maybe but I think the seperate termy rules work nicely. I'd be fine if they didn't have seperate rules though.

BrianDavion wrote:
and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

The Primaris Boxes already have the solution. Look at how many Primaris boxes have greave fronts that go on incomplete leg sets. One box, multiple skins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Maybe but I think the seperate termy rules work nicely. I'd be fine if they didn't have seperate rules though.

They work, but they're not really necessary. Few people would have even blinked if they all had the same rules. We're actually used to it. Its more surprising they have special rules than if they didn't. We're used to Power Armor is Power Armor, Terminator Armor is Terminator Armor, and they all function the same on the table top.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

The Primaris Boxes already have the solution. Look at how many Primaris boxes have greave fronts that go on incomplete leg sets. One box, multiple skins.

Well, to be fair, Mark X armor is described to be highly modular allowing parts to be removed and/or added as needed. Games Workshop doesn't really need to create a Mark XI as much as they can just say this is a new configuration of Mark X armor.

That's not to say they would make use of they way the designed the models to make it easier to create new kits. To be honest, I did wonder why they bothered to the greaves being multi-part like that when the easy-to-build were just a solid piece. It seemed to be the legs were slim enough to not need the extra part count. I don't know if that was the case though.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

The Primaris Boxes already have the solution. Look at how many Primaris boxes have greave fronts that go on incomplete leg sets. One box, multiple skins.

Well, to be fair, Mark X armor is described to be highly modular allowing parts to be removed and/or added as needed. Games Workshop doesn't really need to create a Mark XI as much as they can just say this is a new configuration of Mark X armor.

That's not to say they would make use of they way the designed the models to make it easier to create new kits. To be honest, I did wonder why they bothered to the greaves being multi-part like that when the easy-to-build were just a solid piece. It seemed to be the legs were slim enough to not need the extra part count. I don't know if that was the case though.

The Non-ETB Inceptors are a whole lot better looking - more polished. Without the multi-part legs they can't model as many voids between parts - look at the feet and those grav plate shock absorbing boot things, and the barrel guard on the assault bolters. The Aggressors have options on the legs for the Sergeant to get an Aquilla style decoration on the shin. They can take the same principle to get the different knee joints/plates on the different 1.0 power armor marks, then its just a matter of matching the front chest piece, shoulder pads and heads- which would probably mean more plastic used, and more bits tossed in a box, which could be the reason they don't do this.

Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

because why would GW sell both items when they could instead have a conspiracy to cut their best selling line in half!?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

My guess is:
This is a balance reboot, to try and "fix" space marines not an expansion of the model range.
They've learned from initial GK roll out and evolution going too high on the points costs is too hard to balance vs the horde armies so they can't make Primaris an addition to with higher points costs.
Space Marines are their baseline to balance everything else against - and Space Marines aren't balanced to everything else anymore.
The problem they're trying to fix became noticable after Necrons 3+ +Reanimation - and nerfing Necrons hasn't helped vs the other armies so its easier to buff Marines with their own gimmick - +1A +1W.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

Because why have 2 units that do the exact same thing and fill the exact same role?

The SM line is a complete fething mess of bloated units with bloated options that are all stepping on eachothers toes for design space. The primaris line has significantly less options (which means you need to buy another box of a different unit if you want x type of weapon) and more specialized roles which means there is little to no overlap.

 Lance845 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

Because why have 2 units that do the exact same thing and fill the exact same role?

The SM line is a complete fething mess of bloated units with bloated options that are all stepping on eachothers toes for design space. The primaris line has significantly less options (which means you need to buy another box of a different unit if you want x type of weapon) and more specialized roles which means there is little to no overlap.

thats a bad answer, because by your own admission primaris are differant from space Marines. yes the OLD Marine line has a lot of bloat, which is a problem only in terms of "ok where do we go with new kits from here?" right now despite Primaris Marines being around I'd be willing to bet good money that old Marines still outsell a number of other Xenos armies. bluntly put GW likely has, finanically speaking more incentive to chop Eldar Necrons or Orks then they do to chop old Marines

Breton wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

My guess is:
This is a balance reboot, to try and "fix" space marines not an expansion of the model range.
They've learned from initial GK roll out and evolution going too high on the points costs is too hard to balance vs the horde armies so they can't make Primaris an addition to with higher points costs.
Space Marines are their baseline to balance everything else against - and Space Marines aren't balanced to everything else anymore.
The problem they're trying to fix became noticable after Necrons 3+ +Reanimation - and nerfing Necrons hasn't helped vs the other armies so its easier to buff Marines with their own gimmick - +1A +1W.

Haha pls. Nothing gw does model design wise has any thought to balance! They go purely by what would sell and whaterver the sculptor feels like at the moment (so rule of cool). Do you really think they even consider horde contra elite balance when inventing new primaris stuff? They simply make marine inspired units but bigger.

actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

BrianDavion wrote:
actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

BrianDavion wrote:
actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

Tacticals didn't need fixing in 7th. Invulns, lack of multdamage weapons, psychic powers, and the odd relatioship between vehicles and monstrous creatures needed fixing in 7th.

Any issue with tacticals was secondary to all that. As soon as Tacs got access to weapons that did more than one wound, to compete with the proliferation of larger models, they got better. And as soon as they got the ability to split fire to make better use of their mixed weapons, they got better.

Most of the desire for units to specialize with their weapons came from the fact that units could only fire at one target. That's no longer an issue.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

I am but a spring flower who did not play 7th, please explain. How are two wounds worse than one?

Since new CSM models who share pretty much the same stat line as normal marines came out this year, there is a chance that once the primaris marines are finally made into a full army then normal marines will get the height boost CSM got and continue to stay around for years to come. Maybe at some point (when the primaris line gets re-released for example) normal marines and primaris marines will be merged into 2W, 2A marines who can take special weapons and have AP-1 bolters.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

Plasma is gonna kill your marine no matter how many wounds it has or doesn't have.

It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

It actually kind of does make the army more fragile as a whole. Individual models are harder to kill but you have fewer models on the table and there are a lot of multi-wound weapons out there.

The Newman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

It actually kind of does make the army more fragile as a whole. Individual models are harder to kill but you have fewer models on the table and there are a lot of multi-wound weapons out there.

You don't have to take fewer numbers. A loaded out Tac squad costs more than an Intercessor squad. Your build is your own doing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

It actually kind of does make the army more fragile as a whole. Individual models are harder to kill but you have fewer models on the table and there are a lot of multi-wound weapons out there.

You don't have to take fewer numbers. A loaded out Tac squad costs more than an Intercessor squad. Your build is your own doing.

Tacs and Intercessors are about even if you take sensible load-outs for them. A fully min-maxed Dev squad is about even with a min Hellblaster squad. But then you look at Inceptors, Eliminators, Infiltrators, or Redemptors next to their mini-marine equivalents and they're awfully spendy.

I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

Much of the 2W weapons are great/best-choice weapons regardless of the existence of Primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:
What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.

I suspect he is. frankly IMHO inceptors are best compared to a bike squad. the inceptor is more points for sure but has several advantages vs bikes namely the abilioty to deep strike, fly and being infantry (and thus capable of entering ruins)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.

I suspect he is. frankly IMHO inceptors are best compared to a bike squad. the inceptor is more points for sure but has several advantages vs bikes namely the abilioty to deep strike, fly and being infantry (and thus capable of entering ruins)

Bikes work, but also Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs and dual Plasma Pistols, which at my last look came out pretty comparably in cost, wound for wound, shot for shot.

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

Marines are the last thing on my mind when list building. 2 damage weapons happen to be some of the best in the game

Marines are common, but awful.

I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

What is the purpose of having 300 point transports when your best ability wants you to stay still? What is the point of having 300 point transports without invun saves? Plus your best weapon slays you as often as it kills opponents because of -1 to hit spam.

Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

I doubt they will do any original marine units over. The only reason chaos got a bunch of new kits for older entries is new weapon options and the fact that most of the chaos line was ancient and kinda crappy looking compared to the newer loyalist kits.

It'll be a while but GW clearly sees that it can make more money by making marine players buy a new army then simply continuing the main marine as is.

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

anything possiable but I doubt it. Old Marines have in some ways become victiems of their own sucess. the design of marines has been populat because you can mix and match torso pieces, leg pieces to create a fairly impressive mixed look. it's what a lotta people love about Marines. I can buy a patch of vanguard veterns, sternguard vetrns, mk IV armor etc and make a buncha unique looking marines. problem is that to do this it's held marine design back, the MK 3 marines of 2 and a half years ago, aren't drasticly differant from a tactical kit made 10 or more years ago (you can see some improvements partiuclarly in the heads but.. it's pretty minor) now they could do for tac devestator and assault marines whats been done with chaos, but it'd likely receive a lot of push back as suddenly the kits wouldn't be as inter changeable. also GW would need to redo a TON of kits for old marines to make this work. So yeah it'd likely be a lot of work and receive more backlash then praise

 Insectum7 wrote:

Much of the 2W weapons are great/best-choice weapons regardless of the existence of Primaris.

Exactly. The issue isn't marine stats, it's undercosted weapons.

In almost all cases, the price of those weapons needs to double or triple. There's a problem even they're the best choice for everything.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.

I suspect he is. frankly IMHO inceptors are best compared to a bike squad. the inceptor is more points for sure but has several advantages vs bikes namely the abilioty to deep strike, fly and being infantry (and thus capable of entering ruins)

No, I'm not comparing them to assault marines. I do think bikes are a more apt comparison, and Inceptors are quite a bit more expensive than bikes too. The closest parallel however is the Attack Bike, they're close together on both firepower and point cost. The bike is 4" faster, has a longer range, and has twice as many wounds while the Inceptor brings fly, deepstrike, and non-heavy weapons instead.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

anything possiable but I doubt it. Old Marines have in some ways become victiems of their own sucess. the design of marines has been populat because you can mix and match torso pieces, leg pieces to create a fairly impressive mixed look. it's what a lotta people love about Marines. I can buy a patch of vanguard veterns, sternguard vetrns, mk IV armor etc and make a buncha unique looking marines. problem is that to do this it's held marine design back, the MK 3 marines of 2 and a half years ago, aren't drasticly differant from a tactical kit made 10 or more years ago (you can see some improvements partiuclarly in the heads but.. it's pretty minor) now they could do for tac devestator and assault marines whats been done with chaos, but it'd likely receive a lot of push back as suddenly the kits wouldn't be as inter changeable. also GW would need to redo a TON of kits for old marines to make this work. So yeah it'd likely be a lot of work and receive more backlash then praise

That's purely on GW. Primaris arms/helmets/shoulderpads are interchangeable with all the old kits. Theres no reason new marine sculpts wouldn't also be interchangeable, meaning theres no reason they'd have to update a million kits.

It's following the design philosophy of the new chaos kits that would be the issue. From what I understand they're not interchangeable.

its what fueled my decision to switch to eldar completely. Eldar has a lot of customizability compared to the new marines.

Eipi10 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

I am but a spring flower who did not play 7th, please explain. How are two wounds worse than one?

Since new CSM models who share pretty much the same stat line as normal marines came out this year, there is a chance that once the primaris marines are finally made into a full army then normal marines will get the height boost CSM got and continue to stay around for years to come. Maybe at some point (when the primaris line gets re-released for example) normal marines and primaris marines will be merged into 2W, 2A marines who can take special weapons and have AP-1 bolters.

The normal Tactical Marine Bolter has almost always been the AP -1 equivalent. The theory is all the 2 wound plasma makes no difference between a 15 point 1 wound model and a 15 point 1 wound model. Because all weapons are 2W plasma or some such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

Absolutely, they're make new Primaris Versions of several, if not most, of the small marine Special characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I doubt they will do any original marine units over. The only reason chaos got a bunch of new kits for older entries is new weapon options and the fact that most of the chaos line was ancient and kinda crappy looking compared to the newer loyalist kits.

It'll be a while but GW clearly sees that it can make more money by making marine players buy a new army then simply continuing the main marine as is.

If they can make Primaris the "fix" for marines Chaos is going to get them very soon after. They're already laying the groundwork for it. It'll also help push 1.0 Marines out of play as the Loyalist holdouts will upgrade to Primaris to remain competitive with Chaos.

^The **ll I will.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Honestly? After seeing the size comparison between a DW, KT Marine and a CSM, I honestly think once they've had their fun with Primaris they will true-scale Tacs just so that the size difference looks doesn't feel too awkward with the CSM kit.

You think they’re going to make new versions of small marines going forward?!

anything possiable but I doubt it. Old Marines have in some ways become victiems of their own sucess. the design of marines has been populat because you can mix and match torso pieces, leg pieces to create a fairly impressive mixed look. it's what a lotta people love about Marines. I can buy a patch of vanguard veterns, sternguard vetrns, mk IV armor etc and make a buncha unique looking marines. problem is that to do this it's held marine design back, the MK 3 marines of 2 and a half years ago, aren't drasticly differant from a tactical kit made 10 or more years ago (you can see some improvements partiuclarly in the heads but.. it's pretty minor) now they could do for tac devestator and assault marines whats been done with chaos, but it'd likely receive a lot of push back as suddenly the kits wouldn't be as inter changeable. also GW would need to redo a TON of kits for old marines to make this work. So yeah it'd likely be a lot of work and receive more backlash then praise

That's purely on GW. Primaris arms/helmets/shoulderpads are interchangeable with all the old kits. Theres no reason new marine sculpts wouldn't also be interchangeable, meaning theres no reason they'd have to update a million kits.

It's following the design philosophy of the new chaos kits that would be the issue. From what I understand they're not interchangeable.

because the chest and elgs being seperate was essentially holding GW's design back I suspect. hence why they did what they did with chaos.

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

Hahahahahahahahahaha. No, just no. I just came back to 40k and were surprised about the lack of marines and the need for me to explain kinda basic marine stuff for my opponents in my last 2 tournaments. Sure they were small 16 man ones but I was the only marine(BA) player. Several of those that started playing in the last few years even commented on how it was their first time playing against marines or Blood Angels. I even had a few gotcha moments when I could surprise them since they didnt understand my rules even though I warned them about my stratagems and psychic powers.

People apparently play super hard lists around here and marines in 8th are dead. You might see a supreme command of smash captains but thats it. Now I understand how Dark Eldar players used to feel a decade ago.

But yeah. No one takes 2 damage weapons to use them against marines. They just so happens to kill tanks, FNP/multiwound units, monsters and overpriced marines equally well and the last category is just a bonus they get for building their list against good units. If you can kill knights and nurgle/ork hordes with your list you can kill power armor marines easily as well. Both antitank weapons and anti infantry weapons are cost effective against marine statline.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

Imagine if ever in the history of this game. Someone looked at your marine army and was actually afraid of the marines in it?

 Xenomancers wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

Imagine if ever in the history of this game. Someone looked at your marine army and was actually afraid of the marines in it?

5ed Space Wolves)

 Xenomancers wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I am fine with them squatting them. Just make primaris not suck.

Bolter discapline is a step in the right direction but really not what the army needs or what anyone wanted. What the army needs and what we want is better durability and mobility.

Indeed. I would have loved
a) Marine armour getting a 2+ save (terminators 1+)
b) Astartes Bolters being assault 2 weapons rather than rapid fire to allow them a lot more movement. (And if given free reign I would make astartes bolters -1ap as well...) No problem with the human ones remaining rapid fire as they aren't as skilled with inferior sensors.

Imagine if ever in the history of this game. Someone looked at your marine army and was actually afraid of the marines in it?

Marines were pretty common in 4th, but that was less 'marines are scary' and more '#$%&ing power armor'. The AP system at the time made Marines really hard to kill.

I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

It's not just inaccuracy. That would be tolerable if they weren't the MOST inaccurate faction over and over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klickor wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

But then AP 2 spam became accessible.

Klickor wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

Exactly this. Previously marines work because of the core rules, despite their statline was mediocre. And that was cool, play good and your guys could actually get the job done. Now even primaris can't do anything with their "updated" statline.

That's not really accurate. Marines have been bad for a long time.

5ed SW works fine for me. Not sure about 6ed, didn't play that much, 7er forced cavalry with proxy friends in my throat. 8ed... Well, it's 8ed.

I don't like them. Hugeness leads to heresy.

Silver144 wrote:
5ed SW works fine for me. Not sure about 6ed, didn't play that much, 7er forced cavalry with proxy friends in my throat. 8ed... Well, it's 8ed.

But non-SW were not that great in 5th. 5th ed was the beginning of MAXIMUM FIREPOWER ALL THE TIME. Plus, any jerk off could get a 4++ from cover, and that cheapened power armor a lot, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daba wrote:
I don't like them. Hugeness leads to heresy.

Heresy is overrated. And irrelevant in the case of space bugs.

Martel732 wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
5ed SW works fine for me. Not sure about 6ed, didn't play that much, 7er forced cavalry with proxy friends in my throat. 8ed... Well, it's 8ed.

But non-SW were not that great in 5th. 5th ed was the beginning of MAXIMUM FIREPOWER ALL THE TIME. Plus, any jerk off could get a 4++ from cover, and that cheapened power armor a lot, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daba wrote:
I don't like them. Hugeness leads to heresy.

Heresy is overrated. And irrelevant in the case of space bugs.

Even if cover made PA feel bad it still kinda played to the marine rules strength in that it nerfed shooting and made melee more relevant. They dont get 4+ cover in melee and ATSKNF were a beastly rule back then compared to now.

I quit wargaming midway through 5th edition but Blood Angels werent bad back then. I want my old Mephiston back. He is so underwhelming compared to back then, even if he were more expensive and had less speed and attacks he still were way better due to how the core gameplay was. He crushed any vehicle with ease then and now he cant even bracket anything and get killed in like 2-3 shots due to multiwounds and AP now. He ate landraiders for breakfast and any unit lacking powerfists or thunderhammers were doomed.

Mephy is a lot better since he just can't be picked out and shot. 5th ed mephy couldn't even join squads.

Klickor wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Silver144 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
I expect GW do one of the following:

Release classic marine weapon loads on primaris models, as guilliman updates all chapters as they suffer battle loss

Or

Perfect the upgrade procedure and simply convert all normal marines into primaris.

Whatever the fluff justification, I expect we'll eventually get primaris remakes of classic marine units which will make them different enough to force you to get them.

2w 2a marines has been an argument for 20 years, primaris or not.

А1 attack marine was ok because of sweeping advance.
W1 marine was ok because there was no multiwound weapons and RoF in the game was like 2x less than we have today.

It's not classic statline sucks, it's poor conversion to 8ed.

The movie marines were released in 4th edition because people didn't think the statline represented their effectiveness.

They still died from one shot from a lasgun. They weren't considered effective enough even back then.

Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Arguments over Marines not being accurately represented in the game is as old as the game itself.

They were still more like the fluff than they are now though which I guess is his point. If you only needed to win combat by 1 to defeat a huge unit and wipe it you only need to do slightly more damage than you recieve and that was often the sarges job with PF. Which means 1 A on normal marines were OK since you didnt actually have to use that stat to win melee on itself.

Same with surviving. With way less shots a 3+ save that worked on almost everything could protect good enough even with 1 wound especially since most marines squad mainly relied on 3-4 models of the 10 doing all the work in breaking units or destroying tanks/monsters.

Even if they were flimsy compared to the background even back then they were still better represented on the tabletop. Not perhaps in the actual stat lines but in how the core rules worked around what marines had. Now they have the same stat line but everything else has changed so now it isn't well represented in the stat line, rules or how they interact with each other. A tact squad could with rather good odds actually one shot kill almost any vehicle except a monolith if they just got close enough. They can't even do that to a rhino now even though back then 3 Leman Russes close together were in deep danger if 10 naked marines got close. Same marines now as then just the rules surrounding them that changed.

So true. ATKNF was an amazing ability, and every model being able to attack vehicles in cc with Krak grenades felt so good. Marines played like exceedingly capable troops when played well.

Primaris with their 2w, 2A and all Bolters feel like the "hur-dur" 10-year-old interpretation of marines.

Even if they are at some point, the three Marine players in my gaming group have all resisted buying anything Primus.

CB

The core rules certainly favor hordes even more now, but i would only characterize marines as capable in 3rd and 4th.

Captain Brown wrote:
Even if they are at some point, the three Marine players in my gaming group have all resisted buying anything Primus.

CB

Well problem for GW is there is not really anything left to make for Marines - unlike most ranges they have everything in their range - usually mutliples of the same unit....

unless we want more crap like Centurions......

Or for units that are not in the oh so special Chapters.

Or just pump the scale and re-release all the old stuff again, which has apparently been working for decades.

Nothing wrong with cents...some people just don't want to buy new models. GW gives doesn't give 2 craps about people who don't want to buy new models. They barely care about the ones that do.

Martel732 wrote:
Mephy is a lot better since he just can't be picked out and shot. 5th ed mephy couldn't even join squads.

I used rhinos in my BA lists so could always use those to screen with if the terrain wasnt enough. Was harder to get los than today and no knights to tower over everything so the few ap 1-2 shots the enemy had was quite easy to avoid. Only lascannons and harder could pierce his 2+ save and even if they did he only took 1 wound and had FNP on T6!! And no moving and shooting with heavy weapons on infantry. I feel he is harder to screen from shooting today than back then if I want to get good use of him. He was a monstrous creature 28mm high that had cheap and fast moving LOS blockers in the same codex. Think how brutal an avatar of khaine or a hive tyrant would be if they were the same tiny size.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Captain Brown wrote:
Even if they are at some point, the three Marine players in my gaming group have all resisted buying anything Primus.

CB

Well problem for GW is there is not really anything left to make for Marines - unlike most ranges they have everything in their range - usually mutliples of the same unit....

unless we want more crap like Centurions......

Or for units that are not in the oh so special Chapters.

I want more Centurions. There are Assault and Devastator versions, I would totally buy another box of them if GW released Tactical Centurions. Hurricane Bolter + 2x Stormbolters, with the option to swap Stormbolters for Combi-weapons and/or Storm Shields? Yes please. I would also totally buy a Captain and/or Librarian in Centurion armor.

Considering the NUMarines don't have a single lick of anti-tank weaponry for infantry, I'd say not just yet. Until they release something that can reliably counter vehicles in a infantry squad, such as melta or las cannons, you won't see them stop selling.

Also, until people stop buying them, you won't see them stop selling them. Until they get squatted, which is to say completely removed from the "universe". There are not good rule sheets for squats, so you cannot play them in competitive 8th ed games.

I don't see them squatting their Gold Standard in Marines for at least another few years.

Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We don't know what they will do. They will likely be like str 7 ap-3 D3 heavy with sniper rule. They will be expensive.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

That depends entirely on the points cost of course. At 250 points for 5 dudes with them? No. At 150, maybe?

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

The issue is as has been pointed to in this thread 8th edition core mechanics rewards quantity over quality.

Primaris is an incomplete line with glaring holes that need filled.

Primaris points costs have looked like they were pulled from someones back pocket without any though as to balance

Old marines having been left out to dry has left marine unit costs looking blatantly broken.

Loosing access to so many charictor models and alternative equipment in specialist kits would render marines as pure Primaris as an even lower tier army than they already are.

It's coming but I also suspect that a number of people will never pkay marines again after this even if GW does make them the poster OP downright broken army for 9th or 10th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

That's not a good combo that's stupid broken rules design.
Welcome to the new invisibility.

DR already do this though. In squads of 9 for the cost of CP instead of needing spells. Granted this combo has potential to be even better than that. It is also likely more expensive and not automatic (stratagems are automatic) Seems totally within the realm of reason compared to what other armies can do.

Heck - Hivegaurd can do this effectively and shoot twice without 0 support. Don't see hive guard dominating too much these days.

A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

Ehh - it likely will be 45ish points per model.

It will offer a few advantages over an executioner. Not vulnerable to being 1 shot by volcano lance. 1+ save in cover so AP-1 very ineffective against them. Ancient banner allows to shoot when you die. Has 13 WS3+ str 4 attacks and access to chapter tactics. Synergy with phobo libi. IMO they would be auto include for at least 1 Squad of 6. Also they might even have infiltration ability still - another huge advantage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

Ehh - it likely will be 45ish points per model.

It will offer a few advantages over an executioner. Not vulnerable to being 1 shot by volcano lance. 1+ save in cover so AP-1 very ineffective against them. Ancient banner allows to shoot when you die. Has 13 WS3+ str 4 attacks and access to chapter tactics. Synergy with phobo libi. IMO they would be auto include for at least 1 Squad of 6.

I agree but this, it is also one of my fundamental issues with primaris marines. They are the one way to play or they just suck arm.
They are a weird buff upon buff upon buff mechanic stacking army why flys in the face of 20 years of fluff that marines shouldn't be 1 massive blob surrounding the HQ's.

The aura thing is the worst thing ever, agreed.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

That's a lastalon.

Las fusils are new.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A one shot 36" mini-las? On an overpriced pointless squad? No thanks. Say hello to the most pointless units.

If your anti-tank costs just as much as, and it statistically similar to the tank, it is for all intents and purposes a tank.

6 Eliminators, thats 12-13 wounds. Each one has a gun. It's about 350pts. Congrats you just built the Exectutioner, and that has fly, doesn't loose BS due to movement, and is just all around better investment.

Ehh - it likely will be 45ish points per model.

It will offer a few advantages over an executioner. Not vulnerable to being 1 shot by volcano lance. 1+ save in cover so AP-1 very ineffective against them. Ancient banner allows to shoot when you die. Has 13 WS3+ str 4 attacks and access to chapter tactics. Synergy with phobo libi. IMO they would be auto include for at least 1 Squad of 6.

I agree but this, it is also one of my fundamental issues with primaris marines. They are the one way to play or they just suck arm.
They are a weird buff upon buff upon buff mechanic stacking army why flys in the face of 20 years of fluff that marines shouldn't be 1 massive blob surrounding the HQ's.

If marines are going to be costed like they are in auras (they are). Their auras should be table wide. Then they don't have to hide in bubbles.

Seriously - are marines losing games right now because they can't spread out? or are they losing games because they are made of glass?

Both. These problems are hard to disentangle.

You can't make aura's board wide, it would break the game. But I agree they need to increase the range.

I would love to camp a Chapter master and a Chaplain in my backfield and give my entire army full re-rolls, but that is silly.

I think if you made them give +s to things board wide, that would make sense.

Got a Chaplain on the field? All units get +1 attack. Got a Chapter Master? All units get +1 to Wounding. Captains give +1 to Shooting. To get all three would be about 350 points.

I would give SGTs the ability to give +2 to morale.

And Libby's get psychic powers, so they don't get an Aura. Lt's get nothing, they are just a cheap HQ slot, so drop their points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

As of right now Eliminators only come in a unit of three. That might change, but I half suspect that if Eliminators and Suppressors were going to be able to go up to 6 man units GW would have set their original data sheets that way to sell more of the initial boxed set.

Also, the combo with the Phobos Libby suggests strongly that they'll stay a 3-man unit. GW doesn't seem to want to give Marines good rules for some reason.

I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.

The Newman wrote:


As of right now Eliminators only come in a unit of three. That might change, but I half suspect that if Eliminators and Suppressors were going to be able to go up to 6 man units GW would have set their original data sheets that way to sell more of the initial boxed set.

.

GW doesn't operate like that, Inceptors where listed as 3 man squads in dark Imperium, come the codex, they where able to be taken in 6 man squads. Agressors are likewise a 3 man squad that can be upped to 6 man. centurions another 3 man base squad can be 6. there's no reason to assume you won't be able to go with bigger squads given the precident.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

I'm actually half expecting these guys to have Arquebus' (arquebi?) somewhere in the realm of being able to kill HQs above T5 and light vehicle hunting. Which I'd be all for since I rarely have trouble with HQs with T3

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You can't make aura's board wide, it would break the game. But I agree they need to increase the range.

I would love to camp a Chapter master and a Chaplain in my backfield and give my entire army full re-rolls, but that is silly.

I think if you made them give +s to things board wide, that would make sense.

Got a Chaplain on the field? All units get +1 attack. Got a Chapter Master? All units get +1 to Wounding. Captains give +1 to Shooting. To get all three would be about 350 points.

I would give SGTs the ability to give +2 to morale.

And Libby's get psychic powers, so they don't get an Aura. Lt's get nothing, they are just a cheap HQ slot, so drop their points.

I agree it sounds silly BUT the army can't win in a bubble and they can't really win if you spread out ether - though we sure do try. Gman is also is 400 fething points. Sure he makes a lot of units have phenominal damage output. 1/5 of your whole competitive army. Perhaps at that cost he should have a 12" aura at least. Cause he MUST be buffing most of your army for you to have a chance


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

I'm actually half expecting these guys to have Arquebus' (arquebi?) somewhere in the realm of being able to kill HQs above T5 and light vehicle hunting. Which I'd be all for since I rarely have trouble with HQs with T3

I agree. I think it will be an arquebus equivalent. Possible with better AP. Straight up better than the Eliminators rifle vs most things BUT it doesn't have the versatility. 90% of the time I am using the +2 to hit ignore LOS round for the eliminators because I can move and shoot it and hit on 2's. Mainly including them so I can kill tau drones and DR and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are getting "Las fusils" what ever those are, potentially anti tank Primaris infantry

Like, the 24" mini-lascannon? Great. That's awesome. Step one, watch my anti-tank units get mulched by Bolter fire.

I was hoping for something more 48" S9 AP3 D6 range....

We've seen the Apoc stat line, the Lasfusil is a 36" gun. It also has the same damage profile as an Apoc Lascannon (so far as I know) so it's quite possibly in the vicinity of S9 AP3 Dd6, and it's on a unit with 6 wounds and a 1+ save in cover.

On paper that looks like it's going to compare favorably to a Devastator squad.

If you can take them in 6 mans they will be incredible if that is the case. However I think it's much more likely it will be a heavy sniper rifle. 6 Lascannons with the ability to not be targetable via phobos libi? What is this? An actual good combo?

As of right now Eliminators only come in a unit of three. That might change, but I half suspect that if Eliminators and Suppressors were going to be able to go up to 6 man units GW would have set their original data sheets that way to sell more of the initial boxed set.

Also, the combo with the Phobos Libby suggests strongly that they'll stay a 3-man unit. GW doesn't seem to want to give Marines good rules for some reason.

I have a strong feeling they will be allowed in units of 6. Right now they are okay in 3 man units but at 6 man they have potential to be competitive units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I agree. I think it will be an arquebus equivalent. Possible with better AP. Straight up better than the Eliminators rifle vs most things BUT it doesn't have the versatility. 90% of the time I am using the +2 to hit ignore LOS round for the eliminators because I can move and shoot it and hit on 2's. Mainly including them so I can kill tau drones and DR and the like.

We totally jacked the neutron laser why stop there?

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I agree. I think it will be an arquebus equivalent. Possible with better AP. Straight up better than the Eliminators rifle vs most things BUT it doesn't have the versatility. 90% of the time I am using the +2 to hit ignore LOS round for the eliminators because I can move and shoot it and hit on 2's. Mainly including them so I can kill tau drones and DR and the like.

We totally jacked the neutron laser why stop there?

Yeah ours shoots twice though.

Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.

The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.

The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.

also torunies aren't won by factions withg good rules. they're won by factions with BROKEN rules.

some day when all old marines are replaced by primaris, chaos will be the only faction to feature old marines. Then Chaos players can whine all they want about having weaker marines...

BrianDavion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.

The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.

also torunies aren't won by factions withg good rules. they're won by factions with BROKEN rules.

Tornies are won by lots of army types. Just not marines or crons or nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
some day when all old marines are replaced by primaris, chaos will be the only faction to feature old marines. Then Chaos players can whine all they want about having weaker marines...

Choas marines have the ability to be a lot better than tactical marines. Not due to their statline though - that is bad. They have lots of spell support and stratagem support. They are just better used on other units.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think GW thinks they are giving good rules. In spite of all tournament data to the contrary.

The problem with tournament data is that so much of it is based on a snowflake house rule version of the game.

Its close enough. Marines dont magically get good outside tournaments. Drukhari destroy primaris no matter the setting.

I still think itc helps marines, too. More los blocking and downsides for hordes.

Please use more appropriate analogies consistent with the pg13 rules of dakka - ingtaer.

Hellebore wrote:
Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Why didn't they keep the 2D6 save for Terminators *sob*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just inaccuracy. That would be tolerable if they weren't the MOST inaccurate faction over and over.

It is odd how I think only Epic Armageddon managed to do Marines correctly (small highly mobile forces able to fight foes far more numerous than themselves with integrated air and orbital assets - I still love teleporting the terminators in, extracting them by Thunderhawk, then having them air assault elsewhere on the table) and they haven't matched in pretty much any other setting.

2D6 saves are a real hassle to actually play.

Instead of being able to roll a few saves at once, you have to resolve each hit individually.

Even in the more modest army sizes in 2nd edition, it was too much.

i don't think marines are the only 'inaccurately portrayed' force, they've just had so much power fantasy championing over the decades that they're the loudest.

The eldar are meant to be so fast you can't hit them - they replace heavy protective armour for just not being there.

Not since 2nd ed when a 10" running eldar was -1 to hit did you get anything like that.

They're meant to perfect skills no human (marine or otherwise) could ever achieve. Their mind's are smarter, clearer and more capable of perfection than any other species - slannesh is an example of what happens when a potent mind like that turns its sense of perfection to something a little bit bad....

We never got movie eldar, but they'd all be WS 1+, BS 1+, with 2+ invulnerable saves, Move 10" and ignore cover, and always did lethally accurate strikes at joints etc as they bent bullets, backflipped over stuff and basically acted like the immortal space elf perfectionist ninjas they are (see, I can hyperbolise them just like marines).

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Hell, back in rogue trader GW decided power armour wasn't as though as it depicted, so they pushed it to 3+. And they added 5+ invulnerable to terminators half way through 3rd edition because they died "too easily".

Why didn't they keep the 2D6 save for Terminators *sob*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just inaccuracy. That would be tolerable if they weren't the MOST inaccurate faction over and over.

It is odd how I think only Epic Armageddon managed to do Marines correctly (small highly mobile forces able to fight foes far more numerous than themselves with integrated air and orbital assets - I still love teleporting the terminators in, extracting them by Thunderhawk, then having them air assault elsewhere on the table) and they haven't matched in pretty much any other setting.

Imagine my ork boys charge a unit of terminators. 30 boys get the charge off (29 + nob) 4*29 attacks 116 hitting on 3's. ~76 hits ~38 wounds... ok now roll 38 saves on 2d6 while I go grab a soda hit the restroom, and read a couple of novels. would slow the game by a ridiculous amount

Also there is the fact that if they had a 3+ on 2d6 it would mean all that rolling for ~1-2 wounds. so you would have to basically triple the cost of terminators for thier newfound neigh invunerability to most small arms and assaults (yes I know in the fluff that is what terminator armor does, but there are balance mechanics to be considered in a game. Want movie marines? fine just be prepared to eb fielding 10 models.

 Daba wrote:
2D6 saves are a real hassle to actually play.

Instead of being able to roll a few saves at once, you have to resolve each hit individually.

Even in the more modest army sizes in 2nd edition, it was too much.

Having played 2nd Edition, with the more modest army sizes of 2nd Edition, no it wasn't too much. Individually deviating each and every assault marine by D3 inches and a scatter dice was too much.

 Daba wrote:
2D6 saves are a real hassle to actually play.

Instead of being able to roll a few saves at once, you have to resolve each hit individually.

Even in the more modest army sizes in 2nd edition, it was too much.

You can use roygbiv coded dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hellebore wrote:
i don't think marines are the only 'inaccurately portrayed' force, they've just had so much power fantasy championing over the decades that they're the loudest.

The eldar are meant to be so fast you can't hit them - they replace heavy protective armour for just not being there.

Not since 2nd ed when a 10" running eldar was -1 to hit did you get anything like that.

They're meant to perfect skills no human (marine or otherwise) could ever achieve. Their mind's are smarter, clearer and more capable of perfection than any other species - slannesh is an example of what happens when a potent mind like that turns its sense of perfection to something a little bit bad....

We never got movie eldar, but they'd all be WS 1+, BS 1+, with 2+ invulnerable saves, Move 10" and ignore cover, and always did lethally accurate strikes at joints etc as they bent bullets, backflipped over stuff and basically acted like the immortal space elf perfectionist ninjas they are (see, I can hyperbolise them just like marines).

They still have far more rules to represent that stuff than marines.

Terminator Armour should be 2+ on a D12

Martel732 wrote:

You can use roygbiv coded dice.

You can also roll 38 dice the first time, and only reroll the ones low enough to fail - for example, if you need a 3+ you only have to reroll the 1's. Then any 1's you re-roll are wounds. If you need a 4+ because of a -1, you reroll the 2's first and any 1's are wounds. then reroll the 1's and any 1's or 2's are wounds.

The problem was back in the day AP of -3 to -6 were running around. And terminators were SO expensive, well, you can do the math.

I'll never forget my first run-in with a manbaby who lost his gak after losing 15 terminators in one turn to Eldar. I gotta be honest, terminators are actually better now I think.

Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.

Tygre wrote:
Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.

yea, some people want movie marines and they want them to cost 2 point per model while having overpowered guardsman and fire warriors cost 25 points per model. also thier marines should be M 12" S 16 T16 L1000 W20 A35 Save 2+ on 36 D6 at that 2 points per model. firewarriors and guard though need to keep current profiles at that 25 points and even then they will complain thatt hey lost a single wound on a single marine because in the books they should not have lost that single wound tabling the opponent at the end of turn 1

Nothing is as badly represented as the Eldar Exarchs, that no one, not even GW remember what they are anymore.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Tygre wrote:
Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.

yea, some people want movie marines and they want them to cost 2 point per model while having overpowered guardsman and fire warriors cost 25 points per model. also thier marines should be M 12" S 16 T16 L1000 W20 A35 Save 2+ on 36 D6 at that 2 points per model. firewarriors and guard though need to keep current profiles at that 25 points and even then they will complain thatt hey lost a single wound on a single marine because in the books they should not have lost that single wound tabling the opponent at the end of turn 1

Marines die all the time in the books...

People asking for crazy buffs are fringe wackaloons. Marines just need simple tweaks like atsknf just needs to be roll 2 take the lowest, and a couple point changes or we stop this race to the bottom Nonsense

Tygre wrote:
Sometimes I think that Space Marine players forget that a game is supposed to be a fair fight (50/50 win chance). But for Space Marines to fight like they do in the background it would be so unfair on the other player. Space Marines would pick the battlefield; pick the size of the opposition; pick where and how to deploy (for both sides) etc. To show how Space Marines prefer to fight doesn't fit a standard 40k very well.

We are so far from this i dont understand why it keeps being brought up. Marines aren't even close to 50/50. So yes, it should be 50/50.

Theres no guarantee marines would do any of that regardless of the fluff.

A Marine could easily beat 10 Guardsmen in the books.

A single Guardsman can just flip a switch on their gun and oneshot a Marine in the books.

How can you write rules to conform to both those fluff bits?

You don't. Just do a better job than marines being little bitches. Which they are.

I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?

Martel732 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you justify the fluff through the stats. Guard are statistically inferior to Space Marines.

The issue is the D6 system. It inherently throws the fluff out the window by making the guardman way more powerful than he should be.

So why not just charge the appropriate points while acknowledging this problem?

Ideally that is what should happen. Guardsman need to go up a point and space marines need to go down several. When will GW do this though/will they... idk. Personally i would liek to see 11 point marines to start with and adjust down if they are still performing poorly.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Terminator Armour should be 2+ on a D12

Alternatively we give them +1W and allow their armour to reroll 1s.
As much as a d12 system would give us more options, they aren't as cheap as d6s, especially in the quantities we'd need them in 40K

And extra wounds would absolutely go a long way towards making Marines as a whole more viable/play like superhuman walking tanks.
IMO, just about all non-Primaris, non-Character Marine (and Chaos Marine) Infantry and Bikes should be +1W across the board. There's enough D2+ weapons out there that this would hardly affect the meta, aside from making them more resilient to small arms fire.
Primaris units (and Terminators) can get a rule that allows them to reroll 1s for Armour saves to represent their superior armour.

No d12s needed.

-

D12s would still be a boon in many, many ways. Especially in a system where 1's autofail, there are only 5 meaningful results on each die roll. We could use die roll modifiers and ditch rerolls.

The "expense" of D12s is meaningless in a game with 100 dollar executioner kits. Come on. I play most of my games with 12 dice.

Forget superman. Forget walking tanks. We need to get to NOT VICTIMS first.

If you want a debate on what marines should be...

They should be fundamentally a difficult force to use, but devastating when done correctly. For example able to move relatively rapidly compared to other armies but at the same time able to focus fire while manoeuvring into small target areas, but be vulnerable to being overwhelmed if not kept mobile. On defence you would expect them to be able to hold a key area - a mountain pass for example - but again be overwhelmed if they try to hold a wide area like a guard army.

Problem with that is the 40k rules system is that is very hard to do in an accessible way for what is the most popular army.

So it becomes the beginners army which simply cannot be expected to perform in that way.

It was certainly a surprise in Epic A when all those with marine armies suddenly found them very difficult to use!

But it's not a beginners army at all in practice. It IS hard to use for the wrong reasons.

 Daba wrote:
Nothing is as badly represented as the Eldar Exarchs, that no one, not even GW remember what they are anymore.

They were pretty great last edition. Pretty poor right now agreed. Then again - you do pay 0 points for them compared to a regular aspect warrior right?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Nothing is as badly represented as the Eldar Exarchs, that no one, not even GW remember what they are anymore.

They were pretty great last edition. Pretty poor right now agreed. Then again - you do pay 0 points for them compared to a regular aspect warrior right?

Exarchs as sergeants was a mistake.

They should never have been a squad option, but the design mistake that was 3rd edition had to shoehorn them in. They then failed to correct that mistake in 8th, unlike with Warlocks.

Martel732 wrote:
But it's not a beginners army at all in practice. It IS hard to use for the wrong reasons.

idk if i would say they are not a beginners army. marines are still one of the easiest armies to play and share many stats across the board. I have run several beginner games this edition for people to try the game and marines are the easiest to teach and usually win new player vs new player. the problem somes in that they whiel easy to use are underwhelming once you do get to know all of the rules/strategems.

I also think an issue with marines is that so many people play them that many take all comers lists are built around the idea of facing space marines. This will of course vary from region to region, but I have never seen a gaming group (i travel frequently and find games vs locals for funsies) that does not have marines well represented in factions people are playing. heck in most there are still more marines than anything else in my experience.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But it's not a beginners army at all in practice. It IS hard to use for the wrong reasons.

idk if i would say they are not a beginners army. marines are still one of the easiest armies to play and share many stats across the board. I have run several beginner games this edition for people to try the game and marines are the easiest to teach and usually win new player vs new player. the problem somes in that they whiel easy to use are underwhelming once you do get to know all of the rules/strategems.

I also think an issue with marines is that so many people play them that many take all comers lists are built around the idea of facing space marines. This will of course vary from region to region, but I have never seen a gaming group (i travel frequently and find games vs locals for funsies) that does not have marines well represented in factions people are playing. heck in most there are still more marines than anything else in my experience.

Yeah, I agree. Beginner =/= easily mode in 40K. Marines are a good beginner army because they are straight forward to learn and are more forgiving against lists SPECIFICALLY TAILORED to not be ideal against Marines.

Marines are indeed "hard mode" if you are trying to be competitive, but learning how to compete against top-tier lists should NEVER be the goal when introducing new players

-

I can assure you that is no longer an issue. At least, no one in my play group is planning for marines because they are so rare now in said play group. Even if marine were more common, you don't need to plan for them at all. Most weapons kill them efficiently. That's kind of the problem .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But it's not a beginners army at all in practice. It IS hard to use for the wrong reasons.

idk if i would say they are not a beginners army. marines are still one of the easiest armies to play and share many stats across the board. I have run several beginner games this edition for people to try the game and marines are the easiest to teach and usually win new player vs new player. the problem somes in that they whiel easy to use are underwhelming once you do get to know all of the rules/strategems.

I also think an issue with marines is that so many people play them that many take all comers lists are built around the idea of facing space marines. This will of course vary from region to region, but I have never seen a gaming group (i travel frequently and find games vs locals for funsies) that does not have marines well represented in factions people are playing. heck in most there are still more marines than anything else in my experience.

Yeah, I agree. Beginner =/= easily mode in 40K. Marines are a good beginner army because they are straight forward to learn and are more forgiving against lists SPECIFICALLY TAILORED to not be ideal against Marines.

Marines are indeed "hard mode" if you are trying to be competitive, but learning how to compete against top-tier lists should NEVER be the goal when introducing new players

-

Again, you don't need to tailor against marines to smack them around. This might have been true before 8th, but marines are one of the least forgiving list archetypes in the whole game

 Galef wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Terminator Armour should be 2+ on a D12

Alternatively we give them +1W and allow their armour to reroll 1s.
As much as a d12 system would give us more options, they aren't as cheap as d6s, especially in the quantities we'd need them in 40K

And extra wounds would absolutely go a long way towards making Marines as a whole more viable/play like superhuman walking tanks.
IMO, just about all non-Primaris, non-Character Marine (and Chaos Marine) Infantry and Bikes should be +1W across the board. There's enough D2+ weapons out there that this would hardly affect the meta, aside from making them more resilient to small arms fire.
Primaris units (and Terminators) can get a rule that allows them to reroll 1s for Armour saves to represent their superior armour.

No d12s needed.

-

Happy with the +1 Wound but much better and easier (IMO) to have Terminators as 1+ armour save than re-rolling 1's.

Knowing GW, they will probably try and return oldmarines to their roots and make them T3 with a 4+ save like they originally were, and lower points costs.

Ironically, they will probably lower costs enough that they become more competitive than they ever have been in doing this.

Martel732 wrote:
Again, you don't need to tailor against marines to smack them around. This might have been true before 8th, but marines are one of the least forgiving list archetypes in the whole game

You missed my point. I was suggesting tailor the enemy list so that it CAN'T smack them around. Or at least gives the new Marine player the opportunity to learn the rules as they play rather then learn how to best put their models back in the case

I do this all the time with my Eldar. I don't use Flyers, Spears, Reapers etc and focus on unit like Dire Avengers, Falcons, etc. Things that are "good" but far from optimized against Marines

-

Oh. I see. The fact that thats necessary is nuts.

 Daba wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Nothing is as badly represented as the Eldar Exarchs, that no one, not even GW remember what they are anymore.

They were pretty great last edition. Pretty poor right now agreed. Then again - you do pay 0 points for them compared to a regular aspect warrior right?

Exarchs as sergeants was a mistake.

They should never have been a squad option, but the design mistake that was 3rd edition had to shoehorn them in. They then failed to correct that mistake in 8th, unlike with Warlocks.

They sorta made Autarchs their functional (not fictional) replacements for a while. Then they clamped down on the options available in their no-model-no-rules frenzy, which is a shame.

Martel732 wrote:
I can assure you that is no longer an issue. At least, no one in my play group is planning for marines because they are so rare now in said play group. Even if marine were more common, you don't need to plan for them at all. Most weapons kill them efficiently. That's kind of the problem .

Which is why people take Venoms with their Splinter Cannons instead of Raiders with Dissintegrators?
And why people take Scatter Lasers instead of Star Cannons?
And Flamers/Meltas instead of Plasma?

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. I see. The fact that thats necessary is nuts.

To be fair, though, if you are trying to introduce a new player, this kind of list building should 100% be standard, regardless of whether that new player is using Marines.
But I agree that, with Marines, you have to tone down disproportionately compared to other factions

-

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Nothing is as badly represented as the Eldar Exarchs, that no one, not even GW remember what they are anymore.

They were pretty great last edition. Pretty poor right now agreed. Then again - you do pay 0 points for them compared to a regular aspect warrior right?

Exarchs as sergeants was a mistake.

They should never have been a squad option, but the design mistake that was 3rd edition had to shoehorn them in. They then failed to correct that mistake in 8th, unlike with Warlocks.

They sorta made Autarchs their functional (not fictional) replacements for a while. Then they clamped down on the options available in their no-model-no-rules frenzy, which is a shame.

Exarchs being free squad upgrades makes it very hard to fix. Even at just +1W and a special rule, a price point of 0 makes it silly not to take them.

People take both venoms and ravagers. Splinter is amazing vs gravis dummies.

Ive seen a lot of scatterlasers lately because orks and demons are so much more legit. Marine players have a nasty habit of bringing scouts, which scatterlasers kill just fine.

Flamers and melta suck independenly of marines.

No one plans for marines because they don't need to. Any old weapon is probably going to have a good return vs marines.

Bharring wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Nothing is as badly represented as the Eldar Exarchs, that no one, not even GW remember what they are anymore.

They were pretty great last edition. Pretty poor right now agreed. Then again - you do pay 0 points for them compared to a regular aspect warrior right?

Exarchs as sergeants was a mistake.

They should never have been a squad option, but the design mistake that was 3rd edition had to shoehorn them in. They then failed to correct that mistake in 8th, unlike with Warlocks.

They sorta made Autarchs their functional (not fictional) replacements for a while. Then they clamped down on the options available in their no-model-no-rules frenzy, which is a shame.

Exarchs being free squad upgrades makes it very hard to fix. Even at just +1W and a special rule, a price point of 0 makes it silly not to take them.

Well, no. . . you could just split off Exarchs again and call the "sergeant" a "champion" or whatever, put up a menu of Exarch options to choose from for the new character, an we can all be on our merry way. Imagine an Exarch box that was similar to the SM Captain box. One kit with a ton of gear options to you could build the loadout of your choice. Done deal!

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. I see. The fact that thats necessary is nuts.

To be fair, though, if you are trying to introduce a new player, this kind of list building should 100% be standard, regardless of whether that new player is using Marines.
But I agree that, with Marines, you have to tone down disproportionately compared to other factions

-

Two of the last three new marine players i saw got skunked; one by demons one by drukhari. Both times the gw store guy said marines can handle it and blamed it on die rolls. He told them not to tone down bc primaris is so amazing.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh. I see. The fact that thats necessary is nuts.

To be fair, though, if you are trying to introduce a new player, this kind of list building should 100% be standard, regardless of whether that new player is using Marines.
But I agree that, with Marines, you have to tone down disproportionately compared to other factions

-

Two of the last three new marine players i saw got skunked; one by demons one by drukhari. Both times the gw store guy said marines can handle it and blamed it on die rolls.

Being new players won't help.

Just pointing out that gw stores have no idea whats really going on. I told the guy im not buying an executioner bc you guys put so many invulns in the game. Its got no targets except other marines and ig.

One sure does not speak for all stores.

Sorry, but that's not at all been my experience. You need a better group, a better local game store, and a better meta.