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Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 15:54:29


Post by: small_gods


With the codex previews coming thick and fast I thought it would be good to get some chat going on how to get the best out of your spikey knights.

Here is a brief summary from codex reviews.

Units
Spoiler:
Wardogs: Following the Armiger statline, can be taken in mixed units of both chain cleaver/thermal spear and autocannon variants.

Knight Despoiler: Your run of the mill chaos knight following the usual t8 24 wound statline. Weapons can be taken in any combination so double Avenger Gatling Cannon/thermal cannon etc is still viable. 'Engines of destruction' rule basically mirrors the gallant statline of WS 2+ 5 attacks when you take two mele weapons.

Knight Tyrant: The big boys, a staight copy and paste from the castellan and valliant models from imperial knights.

Knight Decsecrator: One of the two new units from the chaos knight kit. Laser destructor and fist/chainsword. Laser destructor is range 60'' heavy d3 str 14 d6 damage with d3 mortal wounds on a 6+. This unit (like the preceptor) follows the standard knight statline and grants reroll hit rolls of 1 to wardog units. You cannot take carapace weapons with this model.

Knight Rampager: Basically a knight gallant that scores 2 hits on a natural hit roll of 6 with with fist/chainsword. Again no carapace weapons.


Household Ambitions
Spoiler:

Iconoclast: +1 attack and an extra 1 ap when you charge, are charged or preform a heroic intervention. 12" bubble that forces an extra model to flee if morale is failed.

Infernal: Take a mortal wound to roll for random buff of d3 mortals to choose buff. Either increace toughness by 1, increase a single weapons strength and damge by one (hello str 7, dmg 3 avenger) or add 2" to move, 1" to advance and charge.


Stratergems
Spoiler:

Ion Aegis – 2 CP If a Knight Tyrant stays still grant a 5++ to friendly chaos units wholly within 6".

Spiteful Demise – 2 CP Chaos Knights model explodes on a 4+ instead of a 6.

Thunderstomp – 1 CP Titanic Chaos Knight selects one enemy Infantry or Swarm within 1″ that unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds.

Skyreaper Protocols – 1 CP Reroll missed to Hit rolls in the Shooting Phase for a Wardog with Wardog Autocannons.

Rotate Ion Shields – 1/3CP +1 Ion sheild save (note cannot be used against melee like Imperial Knights)

Corrupted Heirlooms – 1/3 CP Standard extra relics.

Tyrannical Court – 1/3 CP up to two Chaos Knights gain Character and a Warlord Trait

Pack Dogs – 1 CP When a Wardog finishes a charge move other Wardogs within 12″ can reroll Charges

Chainsweep – 1 CP Reaper Chainsword Chaos Knight, roll 1D6 for each enemy model within 3″, on a 6 the unit suffers 1 Mortal Wound

Death Grip – 1 CP Same as Imperial Knights

Daemonic Guidance System – 3CP May target a Character with a Shieldbreaker Missile even if they are not the closest target

Full Tilt – 2 CP Chaos Knight may charge even if it Advanced

Devastating Reach – 1 CP Same as Imperial Knights

Titanic Duel – 1 CP Titanic Chaos Knight is fighting another Titanic target, both players secretly choose a number between 1 and 3. If both players pick the same number nothing happens, if they pick different numbers they both get that many extra attacks but may only target Titanic targets.

Trail of Destruction – 2 CP Reroll all hits in a phase for a knight.

Break the Enemy Line – 2 CP In fight phase pick one enemy unit within 1″ of an Iconoclast model that made a charge this turn. That Knight may reroll all hit rolls.

Vow of Carnage – 1 CP iconoclast only. Gain an extra attack for each 10 models slain. Pregame stratergem, can only take one vow.

Vow of Dominance – 2 CP All wound rolls of 1,2 and 3 fail regardless of modifiers. Essentially limiting incoming fire to str 8! As above

Vow of the Beastslayer – 1 CP Against targets with 8+ Wounds this model may reroll to Wound rolls of a 1. As above

Bind the Sounds of the Defeated – 2 CP Roll for each model destroyed, on 4+ gain a wound, up to 6.

Pack with the Dark Gods – 3 CP Infernal only. If you were destroyed but did not explode stand back up on 4+ with d3 wounds.

Daemonic Ammunition – 1 CP All Heavy Stubbers become S5

Diablolic Rift – 2 CP Enemy Psykers suffer Perils on any roll not just a double 1 or double 6 when within 12″


Artifacts
Spoiler:

Veil of Medrengard: +4 Invulnerable save, iconoclast only

Khorne Target: once per battle and One fight phase ignore opponent Invulnerable saves and reverse you have no invulnerable saves.

Ion Aegis: 5+ Invulnerable 6″ save bubble for any Chaos units wholly within.

Tyrants Banner: +1 LD to all chaos units within 6″ and on a 5+ gain 1 CP every turn.

The Teeth that Hunger – Replaces Chainsword S+8 AP -4 Damage 6. +1 Attack, and the end of a battle round where you don’t kill any models this model suffers 1 Mortal Wound.

Bound Yaradian Psychogheist – When shooting on an unmodified roll of a 6 the AP of the attack is improved by 1.

The Traitors Mark – Enemies within 12″ are -1 LD. -2 LD when they are within 6″.

Quicksilver throne of Slaanesh – +1 to Advance or Charge rolls. Always fights first.

Rune of Nak’T’Graa. Model gains a 5++ save, in close combat. Dreadblade only.

Helm of Warp-Sight: When firing ranged weapons, Ignore modifiers to Hit. Not useable on Knight Tyrants.

Relic Laser Destroyer: Heavy 3, Str16 AP-4 Damage D6. Wound roll of a 6 inflicts D3 Mortal Wounds in addition.

Tzeentchian Pyrothrone: Gains Psyker keyword, it knows Smite, cast 1 deny 1. If destroyed by a perils it automatically explodes.

Carapace of Nurgle: When this model makes a save in melee on a 4+ if causes a Mortal Wound to the unit that caused it.

Blasphemous Engines: Dreadblade only. Count as having twice the wounds for using damage chart

Gauntlet of Ascension: Reroll hits and wounds! Also gain 1str and 1attack if you kill a character (no minus to hit).


Warlord Traits
Spoiler:
Objective secured, counts as 10 models.

Each enemy vehicle within 6" of the Warlord suffers a Mortal Wound on a 4+ at the end of your movement phase.

+1 Attack.

Deny one Psychic Power, 5+++ against Wounds caused in the Psychic phase. (If combined with Tzeentch artifact is deny 2)

+1 Charge range and +1 Attack while in the opponents deployment zone.

Enemy units within 12" -1 to their charge rolls. Morale for enemy units within 12" is taken on 2D6 instead of 1. Discarding the lowest.


Dreadblades
Spoiler:
These are limited to one per detachment but get to keep household traits as far as I can tell.

You can take pacts (positive boosts) and daminations (de buffs that are activated if you roll your leadership or above on 2d6 each turn).

You choose one pact or randomly roll for two and choose two damnations or roll for one.

Pacts:

Re-roll hit rolls against Character or Titanic (shooting and melee!)

Roll 1D6 for each enemy unit within 1″ of this Knight when it charges, for each 4+ the unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds

Roll a D6 at the start of the game, 1-3 +2″ Move, 4-5 improve WS by 1, 6 improve BS by 1

+1 LD, at the start of the first battle round, if on the table you gain 1 Command Point

Any attacks with an AP of -1 count as AP 0 against this Knight

Can perform a Heroic Intervention but the range is increased to 6″

Damnations:

Knight may not benefit from any Stratagems

Knight may not fall back and BS is reduced to 6+

Roll a D6 at the end of any Phase that this Knight loses a Wound, on a 4+ it loses and additional Wound

Knight always fights last even if it charged

Knight must shoot or charge the nearest enemy unit

-1 from Advance, Charge and to Hit rolls


Points
Spoiler:

Knight Desecrator 385

Knight Despoiler 285
Knight Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet 305 (must still pay for weapons on top of this)

Knight Rampager 320

Knight Tyrant 500

Wardog 160

Reaper Chainsword 30

Thunderstrike Gauntlet 35

Avenger Gatling Cannon 85

Cannon Laser Destructor 0

Rapid Fire Battlecannon 90

Thermal Cannon 55

Wardog Autocannon 5
Heavy Stubber 2

Ironstorm Missile Pod 16

Meltagun 14

Plasma Decimator 40

Shield Breaker Missiles 15

Stormspear Rocket Pod 45

Thermal Spear 0

Conflagration Cannon 0

Heavy Flamer 14

Thundercoil Harpoon 0

Twin Icarus Autocannon 20

Twin Meltaguns 0

Twin Seigebreakers 35

Volcano Lance 70


Full glacial geek preview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZu56S6-fUU


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 16:55:31


Post by: Azuza001


There are some interesting things here BUT this codex totally feels phoned in. Most of it is imperial knights just chaos, with a lot of the same strats and very few actual "chaos" things.

I do like the idea of demonic surge, getting t9 for that cruical early game could be awesome. But again it would be better if it happened beginning of the round and not your turn.

Any idea on cost of codex yet? Definatly doesnt look like its worth 40$...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 17:01:51


Post by: small_gods


It's up for preoder for $40 or £25. I think it's a vast improvement on the index but doesn't have the most chaos only flavour yet.

Unfortunately I think we'll have to wait for another edition for 3 or 4 truly chaos knights, rather than the 2(ish) new options in the new kit. But at least we can now use them in games and not feel like we're the poor relation.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 17:27:14


Post by: buddha


Speculation hat on (we'll see how well this post ages) but on initial view the codex really seems to push for a single knight in a chaos soup army.

Regular knights have the ability to be run pretty pure with several big guys. Chaos knights seem like they are best taken as a teched choice to round out chaos soup. If you need a big bruiser or a dual gat knight that can ignore minuses to hit you can select what you need.

I'm doubting we will see pure chaos knights lists making any top tables but I'm quite sure we will see many winning chaos lists with a single knight attached.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 18:59:25


Post by: UMGuy


I sadly completely agree that this was phoned in. So much copy and paste from the IK codex. And no marks, it feels like a let down. They could have done so much more.

That said, it feels like the best option is going to be an aux choice vs full super hea y detachment. I can see running one to help level out an army

The vows are really interesting, wish there were more than 3. But the 3 will let you tailor your list some depending on the lost you are facing and will mean youre looking at a chaos knight and 2 to 3 CP to fully utilize them


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 20:06:34


Post by: Ideasweasel


 buddha wrote:


I'm doubting we will see pure chaos knights lists making any top tables but I'm quite sure we will see many winning chaos lists with a single knight attached.


The same could be said for pure imperial knights but 3 in imperial soup is very strong


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 20:24:05


Post by: Azuza001


The one advantage i see with a single chaos knight vs imperial is since our "household traits" equal choice a or b then going super auxiliary detachment doesnt prevent getting the "count as double wounds" trait as chaos is a relic instead of a household trait. That may make it ok.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 20:48:43


Post by: PUFNSTUF


Anyone know what knight combo might be good with a Tsons army?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 21:11:07


Post by: buddha


 Ideasweasel wrote:
 buddha wrote:


I'm doubting we will see pure chaos knights lists making any top tables but I'm quite sure we will see many winning chaos lists with a single knight attached.


The same could be said for pure imperial knights but 3 in imperial soup is very strong


True but my prediction is you won't see three chaos knights in soup but you will likely see one.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 22:02:38


Post by: Ideasweasel


Ah got ya. I’m keen to try 3 with Magnus and Morty for a laugh but it’s probably not very viable


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 22:17:42


Post by: Rogerio134134


Would very much like to take a knight with my budding Asia legion force to provide anti tank!!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 23:12:27


Post by: Azuza001


I think tsons is where its at with the knights at the moment. Tsons are amazing but their big weakness is no good anti tank. Castellen, armigers, these look like they will nicely mix well with tsons anti infantry stuff.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/06 23:26:43


Post by: Tarnag


 Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah got ya. I’m keen to try 3 with Magnus and Morty for a laugh but it’s probably not very viable

God that sounds amazing


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/07 08:14:00


Post by: small_gods


PUFNSTUF wrote:
Anyone know what knight combo might be good with a Tsons army?


The Castellan could be a useful ally if you want some big time anti tank. With the vow of dominance and with the 4++ relic. I think it has the edge over the imperial version.

A knight with aenger gatling cannon, thermal cannon with stormspear is a decent budget replacement, plus you can take the -to hit relic. 200+ points cheaper.

If you're just wanting to have something to soak fire and run up the board with Ahriman and 2 daemon princes the rampager is cheap, cheerful and potentially very potent. Stick the relic chainsword on it and give it the +1 attack warlord trait for 7 chainsword attacks or 18 stomps and a chainsword attack.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/07 12:31:47


Post by: Brymm


 Ideasweasel wrote:
Ah got ya. I’m keen to try 3 with Magnus and Morty for a laugh but it’s probably not very viable


If you have the points, this would be super viable. Unless you need to be playing top tables, lists with the brothers can just smash in the mid tables. There would be games that would be hard to lose using three knights and Magnus and Morty.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/07 13:14:45


Post by: DoomMouse


Reckon 3 double avenger knights with 60 ish plaguebearers could have a competitive place? Seems to me that super reliable firepower plus good obsec could be pretty decent.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/07 13:38:05


Post by: Barnie25


I think running 3 Lord Discordants with a Castellan or Valliant might also be something worth while.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/07 19:05:50


Post by: JNAProductions


Can we have a breakdown of what we know in the OP?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/07 19:13:10


Post by: small_gods


 JNAProductions wrote:
Can we have a breakdown of what we know in the OP?


I'll put together a summary of a decent chunk of what we know, I'll leave the link up for people who want all the detail.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 10:40:37


Post by: BoomWolf


Here's a fun combo-Sonic the chaos knight

Take a melee knight
Make him an infernal household (demonic hunger)
Make him warlord with Eager for the Kill trait
Give him Quicksilver Throne of Slaanesh
2 CP for Full Tilt

+2 movement
+3 advance
+3 charge
Always fight first
+1 attack in enemy deployment zone

So, your "basic" knight gets a 20+3d6 charge range, always fights first (good if enemy also happens to have this ability) and gets an extra attack if you went all the way inside enemy deployment zone-and you likely will.
A Cerastus type would have 22+4d6 charge range, and honestly that's probably overkill realm.

Its not Sonic the Genestealer, but heck its enough.



Dreadblade options seems also pretty good.
A shooty knight with Knower of Profane Secrets, Forsaken, Warp Fudge is very unlikely to trigger his damnations-and even if he does, he hardly cares. meanwhile he pumps out CPs while alive.

Also, keep in mind that your shooty knight that needs not move-can summon his own bubblewarp.


For the TS, Desecrator with the Diamonas relic watching over some war dogs, probably in an infernal house-this will cover the lack of AT weapons quite well. but will cost a heafty sum of points.
S16 is something that cannot be ignored. even if "only" 3 shots at d6 damage each.


Overall it seems like chaos knights, while lacking in options, can put up a fight to imperials by the fact the few things they have are pretty powerful, and mesh well together.
I mean, despite having so little options you still get spoiled for choice. there are a LOT of strong relics/traits/pact/etc


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 11:50:54


Post by: Mandragola


I think chaos knights could be decent, thanks to the combos. Things like death hex will be major advantages.

Basically a dual gat knight that ignores modifiers to hit will do good things. It’s not even all that expensive.

One downside is that it might be your only vehicle. Chaos lists that I see tend to feature either no vehicles, or sometimes a bunch of PBCs. But the lists with lots of FW dreads could potentially benefit from adding one of these guys.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 12:16:17


Post by: Mushkilla


 BoomWolf wrote:

Dreadblade options seems also pretty good.
A shooty knight with Knower of Profane Secrets, Forsaken, Warp Fudge is very unlikely to trigger his damnations-and even if he does, he hardly cares. meanwhile he pumps out CPs while alive.


Profane Secrets only generates a CP on the first battle round unfortunately.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Also, keep in mind that your shooty knight that needs not move-can summon his own bubblewarp.


This is the really powerful part. Being able to summon a screen of brimstones for 30pts on a 4+ on 2d6 is pretty handy. Or a Nurgle Herald for shrivelling pox (-1 to targets toughness) to boost the damage output of those avengers gatling cannons. Or an Infernal Enrapturess for a 24" perils on doubles bubble for some psychic defence. Or flamers for some extra horde clearing. Summoning meshes really well with chaos knights.

Personally, I really like the new codex, it has a lot of flexibility on the fly for tailoring to your matchup.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 15:29:22


Post by: orkswubwub


Naive questions at this stage pre-codex - did the avenger gatling knight with heavy flamers go up in cost? As near as I can tell the knight base model is the same but the avenger gatling cannons are now 85 a pop with flamers now costing 14, bringing the total cost per wep to 99 - which previously was 89. So a 20 points increase if using 2? If anyone knows please share - otherwise will have to wait for the codex to drop.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2019/06/30/codex-chaos-knights-leak-compilation/


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 15:49:36


Post by: Mandragola


Interesting. The gatling is probably under-costed, so it makes sense. I wonder if they'll do this for Imperial Knights too.

It could also just be a typo of course.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 18:12:12


Post by: taetrius67


But battle canon and thermal canon are cheaper than imperial it's may be just to make the double gatling harder to take.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 18:34:11


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


How will these cheaper Knights compare to the Kytan? It's also fairly cheap for a super heavy, but it has Daemon and so can use some nice buffs and strats.

You can of course do both. We could always warptime a Kytan for a 1st turn charge. Couple that with one of those above speed builds and it'll get crazy.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 19:08:38


Post by: small_gods


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
How will these cheaper Knights compare to the Kytan? It's also fairly cheap for a super heavy, but it has Daemon and so can use some nice buffs and strats.

You can of course do both. We could always warptime a Kytan for a 1st turn charge. Couple that with one of those above speed builds and it'll get crazy.


I think with knights you buff them with stratergems rather than using psykers or lord discordants, which are all additional points. So if you have the CP I think knights have the edge. Kytan and sorcerer, 508 points. Knight with thermal spear, chainsword and stormspear rockets 510 points. Similar mele, knight weapons are d6 damage vs 2, has more wounds and better stratergems. Only edge kytan has is 5++ in melee.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 19:30:17


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


 small_gods wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
How will these cheaper Knights compare to the Kytan? It's also fairly cheap for a super heavy, but it has Daemon and so can use some nice buffs and strats.

You can of course do both. We could always warptime a Kytan for a 1st turn charge. Couple that with one of those above speed builds and it'll get crazy.


I think with knights you buff them with stratergems rather than using psykers or lord discordants, which are all additional points. So if you have the CP I think knights have the edge. Kytan and sorcerer, 508 points. Knight with thermal spear, chainsword and stormspear rockets 510 points. Similar mele, knight weapons are d6 damage vs 2, has more wounds and better stratergems. Only edge kytan has is 5++ in melee.


In a vacuum, sure. But it's not entirely right to add the cost of the buffing unit to the cost of the Kytan because you'll be taking other units in your army anyway. For example, the Kytan can benefit from HQ auras, and your gonna need to have those in your other detachments. If you're running a Prince, Disco, or Greater Possessed for other reasons, the Kytan gets a lot stronger.

And even if we don't count buffs from other units, it gets some nice strats too. Daemonforge is only 1 CP and gives re-roll all hit and wound rolls, and can be used in both Shooting and Fight phase. And depending on the Legion, it may be able to use the Legion strat (Iron Within, Iron Without especially notable.) The Kytan has less variety of strats, but may still end up with the edge.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 19:51:47


Post by: Barnie25


How do people feel towards infernal Castellans? I feel like their damage potential is really high. The ability to reroll hits, ones to wound and have s9 plasma cannons with 3 flat damage seems crazy. Sure its expensive but it can dish out a sick ton of pain.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 20:48:19


Post by: MinMax


 Barnie25 wrote:
How do people feel towards infernal Castellans? I feel like their damage potential is really high. The ability to reroll hits, ones to wound and have s9 plasma cannons with 3 flat damage seems crazy. Sure its expensive but it can dish out a sick ton of pain.

Vows are for Iconoclast Knights only, so you can't have both a S9 Plasma Cannon and be rerolling 1s to wound.

That said, the Infernal Tyrant is completely blown out of the water by the House Raven Castellan. With Cawl's Wrath their Plasma Cannon is also S9, D3 (and with AP-4 to boot), and they can reroll failed hit rolls of 1, wound rolls of 1, damage rolls of 1, and random shot rolls of 1. Chaos Tyrants don't hold a candle to that.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 21:04:03


Post by: A.T.


Azuza001 wrote:
There are some interesting things here BUT this codex totally feels phoned in. Most of it is imperial knights just chaos, with a lot of the same strats and very few actual "chaos" things.
Given the vocal complains that GW often seems to get about chaos not getting all the stuff from the various loyalist books - damned if they do...

Forgeworld were the ones that released the actually daemonic knights though so there may be a second wave of unique chaos knight rules at some point.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 23:18:11


Post by: BoomWolf


Chaos would not compain about not getting the loyalist stuff if there would have been a decent "chaos" replacement.

Having just 2 "households" of chaos is a bit of a kick in the sheen, even if they are good-because it was so godamn EASY to make 4 "chaos god dedicated" Households, give each a relic (heck there are 4 god-themed relic already in the codex!) a warlord trait and a household ability. its not even going to need to be a great household ability as giving them a "chaos mark" as part of it opens them to cross-chaos monogod synergy.

Chaos gripes have always been that loyalist gets SO MUCH MORE, and most chaos things are an afterthought, being either a direct copy (who is often inferior, see CSM vs loyalist marine. exact same but ATSKNF) or having no counterpart at all.
You can't compare the chaos options to the sheer mass of loyalist options-its not a contest.
Heck, even the chaos knight's advantages over the loyalists came directly from the consolidation of the imperial knights into a single datasheet that happened to open up new variations, rather than an actual new set of unique chaos patterns.
Just look at the new T.sons start collecting box to see the neglect. its the first to contain a name character in it, because GW didn't bother to give TS a single-pack generic HQ for a few years now, while marines get enough primaris lieutenants to make squads of them, then they piled two troops and called it a day. could have easily been prince+troop (either goats or preferably rubrics) and then some fancy extra like the enlightened-but nope. 2 troops and a named HQ. FFS the various goats (and princes) are not even listed under TS in GW's own site, because TS are THAT much of an afterthought they never bothered listing their units properly.
Just to grasp the difference in sacel of options-the primaris set of options alone is now about as big the TS codex, including the cheap CSM vehicle imports and such. (and the fact that the TS codex was so poorly invested that 2 of its 3 troops are not even effected by its "legion tactics.", nor are the helbrutes effected in the slightest way. heck even somehow they managed to give the legion serving the "god of magic" some of the worst spells in the game.)

Chaos releases just too often feel like an uninspired afterthought rather than a true labor of love.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 23:40:32


Post by: Sokhar


I can agree with most of that post, but complaining that Thousand Sons got "some of the worst spells in the game," when they got every psychic power for Tzeentch Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, AND their own unique discipline seems questionable.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/08 23:53:43


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


Sokhar wrote:
I can agree with most of that post, but complaining that Thousand Sons got "some of the worst spells in the game," when they got every psychic power for Tzeentch Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, AND their own unique discipline seems questionable.


But their discipline isn't very good due to the high WC cost. And while they have access to units that can take other disciplines, its not their main TS units or sorc HQs who can.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 00:41:46


Post by: small_gods


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Sokhar wrote:
I can agree with most of that post, but complaining that Thousand Sons got "some of the worst spells in the game," when they got every psychic power for Tzeentch Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, AND their own unique discipline seems questionable.


But their discipline isn't very good due to the high WC cost. And while they have access to units that can take other disciplines, its not their main TS units or sorc HQs who can.


TSons have the best psychic phase in the game. If you want to complain about poor psychic armies look at grey knights. 1 damage smite and 6 piss poor powers. Also brotherhood of sorcerers makes their smite much more reliable and means they can outrange all other psykers.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 00:47:38


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


 small_gods wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Sokhar wrote:
I can agree with most of that post, but complaining that Thousand Sons got "some of the worst spells in the game," when they got every psychic power for Tzeentch Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, AND their own unique discipline seems questionable.


But their discipline isn't very good due to the high WC cost. And while they have access to units that can take other disciplines, its not their main TS units or sorc HQs who can.


TSons have the best psychic phase in the game. If you want to complain about poor psychic armies look at grey knights. 1 damage smite and 6 piss poor powers. Also brotherhood of sorcerers makes their smite much more reliable and means they can outrange all other psykers.


They have a good psychic phase because of their casters, not because of their powers. And yes we all know GK has gotten shafted. But we should probably get back on topic about Knights.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 01:29:56


Post by: BoomWolf


Yup, TS spam smite, not using actual TS spells. 3 of them are strictly weaker than spells in other armies AFTER you apply the "TS legion tactics", one is the witchfire that has the lowest expected output of all with no extra effect, one is the only WC9 in the game for an effect barly worth WC7, and the last is a meme table.
Practically any psyker discipline is better than the TS one except renegades. I can't think of the top of my head of a single disciple I won't switch to if offered the chance.


Anyways, let's get back to topic.
Anyone has more cool ideas if chaos knight builds?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 02:18:25


Post by: vaklor4


I plan on building a double thermal cannon knight with a forge theme, smoke chimneys, fire, etc. Hopefully it translates to something remotely ok on the tabletop! 2d6 tankbuster shots should do the trick.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 08:29:49


Post by: Neophyte2012


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Sokhar wrote:
I can agree with most of that post, but complaining that Thousand Sons got "some of the worst spells in the game," when they got every psychic power for Tzeentch Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, AND their own unique discipline seems questionable.


But their discipline isn't very good due to the high WC cost. And while they have access to units that can take other disciplines, its not their main TS units or sorc HQs who can.


Just see the following spells: Glamour of Tzeentch (WC7), Weaver of Fate (WC6), Temporary Manipulation (WC6). I think these are very great psychic powers with decently low WC. Aren't they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vaklor4 wrote:
I plan on building a double thermal cannon knight with a forge theme, smoke chimneys, fire, etc. Hopefully it translates to something remotely ok on the tabletop! 2d6 tankbuster shots should do the trick.


From what I see up to now, about the WLT, Relic and stratagem. I think Chaos Knight are more focused on getting close and chop everything into pieces. So maybe try load three Knights up in Gallant style and rush up?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 08:41:33


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Err, we should get back on topic. No point arguing about Tzeentch discipline on a chaos knight thread. Is it me or is Iconoclast already pigeonholed into melee type knights while Infernal household knights are shooty because of that Demonsurge?

I suppose Iconoclast can also go shooty, while using their household trait as a surprise tactics. Its just that the +1 attack is so much better on melee knights like Rampagers, while demonic surge is great for shooty knights.

Anyone has good ideas of using a Tyrant (Valiant)? I love the confrag cannon, but its relatively short ranged. Was wondering if the new chaos knight codex might now make the Tyrant (valiant) viable now.

Oddly enough though, if you want a permanent 4++ Tyrant (Castellan), it has to be Iconoclast, because the 4++ relic is an Iconoclast only relic...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 09:21:17


Post by: small_gods


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Err, we should get back on topic. No point arguing about Tzeentch discipline on a chaos knight thread. Is it me or is Iconoclast already pigeonholed into melee type knights while Infernal household knights are shooty because of that Demonsurge?

I suppose Iconoclast can also go shooty, while using their household trait as a surprise tactics. Its just that the +1 attack is so much better on melee knights like Rampagers, while demonic surge is great for shooty knights.

Anyone has good ideas of using a Tyrant (Valiant)? I love the confrag cannon, but its relatively short ranged. Was wondering if the new chaos knight codex might now make the Tyrant (valiant) viable now.

Oddly enough though, if you want a permanent 4++ Tyrant (Castellan), it has to be Iconoclast, because the 4++ relic is an Iconoclast only relic...


I think if you give him the vow of dominance, the psychic warlord trait and the 4++ relic he will be much more viable and genuinely difficult to take down for most armies.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 11:35:59


Post by: BoomWolf


Iconoclast is definatly choppy, but infernal is actually quite versatile and can be either shooty, choppy or sprinty. He won't out-chop iconoclast, but the ability to choose on the fly is valuable, and synergies best with hybrid Knights.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 15:18:21


Post by: small_gods


Just looking at the potential (and obviously overkill) ammount of damage an iconoclast Knight Rampager with relic fist and extra attack warlord trait can do. Even without stratergems like titan duel and vow of carnage, it can pretty reliably do 50ish damage to knight with no save if you rack up some kills with vow of carnage (not too hard with at least 21 -3 ap stomps hitting in 2+) or get some extra with titan duel, you can easily kill 2 castellans in one combat with no chance of them saving themselves unless you roll double 1s a few times!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 15:19:05


Post by: JNAProductions


 small_gods wrote:
Just looking at the potential (and obviously overkill) ammount of damage an iconoclast Knight Rampager with relic fist and extra attack warlord trait can do. Even without stratergems like titan duel and vow of carnage, it can pretty reliably do 50ish damage to knight with no save if you rack up some kills with vow of carnage (not too hard with at least 21 -3 ap stomps hitting in 2+) or get some extra with titan duel, you can easily kill 2 castellans in one combat with no chance of them saving themselves unless you roll double 1s a few times!
What's the Relic Fist do?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 15:20:54


Post by: small_gods


Reroll hits and wounds, no minus to hit, same x2 str, -4 ap, 6 dmg. One extra strength and attack if you kill a character.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 17:12:46


Post by: Mushkilla


One of the nice things I noticed with the new codex is that all the relics/traits/stratagems etc that give re-roll to hits give re-roll to hits not re-roll misses. So are much better against negative hit modifiers. Even Skyreaper protocols (which in the imperial knights codex is re-roll misses) is now re-roll hits (oh and trail of destruction).


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 18:28:57


Post by: BoomWolf


Mushkilla-that's a very good spot. I did not notice that at all.


As for the fist, I think it has a slight issue of being a good relic in a pile of great relics, and as such may not be as attractive.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 19:38:38


Post by: small_gods


 BoomWolf wrote:
Mushkilla-that's a very good spot. I did not notice that at all.


As for the fist, I think it has a slight issue of being a good relic in a pile of great relics, and as such may not be as attractive.


It is mainly a case of overkill, you can kill most things you need without it and more likely the Khornate Target will be better in most cases.... but the beautiful thing is that you can choose what artifacts you take when you see what you're playing. So I'd take the fist for the knight vs knight matchup and maybe some armoured imperial guard list but not much else.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/09 21:37:42


Post by: Azuza001


Yeah, but that fist can do some serious work. Its garunteed kills vs armored targets without invulnerable in cc, so anything other than a smash captain like chr. Even then it should still do some serious dmg, only 2 need to go through to kill almost any chr. And if someone does survive you death grip them to finish them off.

Its not a bad way to spend 350 pts...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 01:27:39


Post by: Eldenfirefly


One issue though is that smash captains are still around. And now even chaos has them. No matter how you deck out your knight, if he gets charged by a smash captain willing to blow the CP required to kill your knight, there's still a very high chance that knight is going down. (Even if its a Rampager).

He blows some CP plus maybe a smash captain which cost slightly over 100 points to down the Rampager which is 300 over points. Its a good trade. (Or if its a 1 for 1 trade with a Tyrant, then even better).


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 02:48:36


Post by: Azuza001


Take 30 cultists. Surround your knight tyrant (castallian) with them. Pop the 5++ strat. Profit. Smash captains dont want to charge the chaff, but if you completly surround the base so they cant physically fit then they cant charge the knight. Hopefully this buys you the single turn you need to domonic missile guidence them and kill the smash captain. Thats my plan anyways, just simple proper screening.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 02:58:09


Post by: broxus


The good thing is you can make the knight always attack first with the Slaanesh relic. Additionally, with the right vow strategem unmodified 1,2, and 3s always fail to wound. This makes the blood angels chapter trait useless and it is hard for that smash captain to actually kill a knight.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 03:15:21


Post by: Drudge Dreadnought


broxus wrote:
The good thing is you can make the knight always attack first with the Slaanesh relic. Additionally, with the right vow strategem unmodified 1,2, and 3s always fail to wound. This makes the blood angels chapter trait useless and it is hard for that smash captain to actually kill a knight.


Always Fight First won't override if they get the charge. They'll still get to activate first.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 04:26:58


Post by: broxus


 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
broxus wrote:
The good thing is you can make the knight always attack first with the Slaanesh relic. Additionally, with the right vow strategem unmodified 1,2, and 3s always fail to wound. This makes the blood angels chapter trait useless and it is hard for that smash captain to actually kill a knight.


Always Fight First won't override if they get the charge. They'll still get to activate first.


Unless you have a death guard foul blightspawn nearby =)


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 09:07:16


Post by: Mushkilla


Yeah blightspawn are a great counter there. The gem from daemons is another handy counter.

I've worked out what the subtle difference between trail of destruction and break the enemy. At first I didn't see the point in break the enemy as I read it as just another way of getting re-rolls in close combat... But it affects multiple knights.

...Select an enemy within 1" of an iconoclast model from your army that performed a charge move that turn. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by an iconoclast model from your army ...

The key part is in bold. It affects multiple knights. So you charge a large unit with multiple knights you can give them all re-rolls to hits against the same target.

There a similar subtlety with Daemonic rift (auto perils on all powers within 12"). It affects all infernal knights. So it's not just a 12" bubble around one knight, but around all knights.

This codex, despite being smaller than the imperial version seems a lot more thought out. It really feels like less is more in this case. There are a lot less duds in this book, and the rules layer more, personally I'm really happy with it.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 09:19:59


Post by: BoomWolf


Wait... 12" auto perils around every infernal knight?

As if my TS don't have enough hard counters out there already XD.



Break the enemy makes me confused. It's so good for war dogs, but war did want to be infernal...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 10:07:35


Post by: Mushkilla


The auto perils are even stronger when combine with the Daemon stratagem that makes perils do 2d3 mortal wounds.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 10:15:54


Post by: small_gods


 Mushkilla wrote:
Yeah blightspawn are a great counter there. The gem from daemons is another handy counter.

I've worked out what the subtle difference between trail of destruction and break the enemy. At first I didn't see the point in break the enemy as I read it as just another way of getting re-rolls in close combat... But it affects multiple knights.

...Select an enemy within 1" of an iconoclast model from your army that performed a charge move that turn. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by an iconoclast model from your army ...

The key part is in bold. It affects multiple knights. So you charge a large unit with multiple knights you can give them all re-rolls to hits against the same target.

There a similar subtlety with Daemonic rift (auto perils on all powers within 12"). It affects all infernal knights. So it's not just a 12" bubble around one knight, but around all knights.

This codex, despite being smaller than the imperial version seems a lot more thought out. It really feels like less is more in this case. There are a lot less duds in this book, and the rules layer more, personally I'm really happy with it.


Good spot, that makes killing off that big unit of plaguebearers much easier, especially with reroll hit rolls rather than misses.

I too think they've thought about how the knights will interact with lots of lists so now they've got a fair ammount of good options and only a few duff ones. Whereas if you look at the csm book, 50% of stratergems and artifacts are generally not worth thinking about.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 11:50:19


Post by: bmsattler


Knights are best when they can shoot then charge. Iconoclast don't really lose out if they work on shooting because titanic feet are so good against most things. Even with my Krast Crusaders I'm just about always trying to move into melee. Then fall back, shoot, repeat for double the damage.

One build that was suggested in one of the review videos I've seen is a double-Avenger Gatling Cannon knight with Vow of Carnage. Apparently the Vow counts destroyed models, not models destroyed in melee. So by the time you get ready for melee you're up an attack or two.

Dreadblades seem like they are a lot better than Freeblades for IK. They get to keep the household trait, and their relic is pretty awesome. You could choose one advantage with the relic, then roll randomly to get two more that don't matter as much.

One question I have is that if you ignore doubles when you roll randomly, do you roll before or after taking the relic into account?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/10 21:21:20


Post by: BoomWolf


I actually don't think too highly on the dreadblade relic.

5++ in melee is nice, but the added pact and damnation...is irksome.
KoPS is probably the best pact, and you only want one knight with it anyway due to CP generation limits, and Path to Glory is nice, but you do not lack hit rerolls. The rest of the pacts are not too amazing.
As for damnations, piling 3 damnations that won't outright cripple you when you fail the check is HARD. unless you are pure melee and then some are not very harmful.

And then you got the opportunity costs of not getting the relic that lets you ignore enemy invuls, the 4+MW whenever someone tried to punch you,
+change/advance and AFA, ignoring modifiers on shooting, even more Ld to make your dreadblade fail less coupled with extra CP, and three very good weapons.
There re too many relics to choose from.


I also suspect the double-gata is going to drop out of favor.
Yes, its good firepower. but it lacks synrgy-and the stratagems, traits, etc push quite hard into either outright melee, or hybrid types. even if shooty, you likely want two different guns to enjoy the options with the demonic surge.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 01:16:21


Post by: buddha


What are thoughts for Ironclast versus Infernal for just a 2 man war dog detachment (auto-cannon types).


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 05:50:31


Post by: BAN


Anyone thought about what they gonna put in a 1750pt chaos knight list?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 05:54:17


Post by: casvalremdeikun


BAN wrote:
Anyone thought about what they gonna put in a 1750pt chaos knight list?
I think I was able to fit three Questoris Class Knights (Double Gat Despoiler, Rampager, Desecrator) and two Wardog Helglaives in at that points level. Seems like it should be killy enough.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 10:20:47


Post by: Mushkilla


 BoomWolf wrote:

I also suspect the double-gata is going to drop out of favor.
Yes, its good firepower. but it lacks synrgy-and the stratagems, traits, etc push quite hard into either outright melee, or hybrid types. even if shooty, you likely want two different guns to enjoy the options with the demonic surge.


I somewhat disagree with outright melee or hybrid types. In fact I think the codex in some ways lends its self more to double ranged weapon despoiler class knights.

Iconoclast, makes stomp attacks very reliable with as you go from 12 attacks at -2 AP to 15 attacks at -3 AP. This makes double ranged weapon knights even better in melee. Hybrid knights on the other hand don’t really get much from having a melee weapon, other than being cheaper and having some niche utility against some tougher targets. The thing is you need to get to your target for the reaper/gauntlet to be effective. Even in terms of cost, why pay 30pts for a reaper when you can pay 25pts more for a thermal cannon (thermal cannons are 55pts in the chaos codex)?

Infernals you could boost shooting knights as much as hyrbrid knights with hybrid knights main advantage being that they are more point efficient when it comes to daemonic surge (paying fewer points per wound).

But when it comes to our stratagems and relic I feel we have a few that have more synergy with ranged weapons. The warp sight (ignore hit modifiers) is more potent the more ranged weapons your knight has. The same goes for trail of Destruction, Vow of the Beastslayer and Vow of Carnage. Same goes for dreadblade traits. Double thermal cannon (110pts for two!) knight with Vow of the Beastslayer (re-roll 1s to wound vs 8 wound or more models) and Path to Glory (re-roll to hit vs character and titanic) is a fantastic hunter for 395pts (cheaper than a hybrid Paladin/Errant/Warden).

Personally I see one of the strengths of the Chaos Knight codex is making our shooty knights into hybrid knights without having to sacrifice a ranged weapon.

As for dreadblades, I think they offer a lot of flexibility. Almost all the pacts bar (thunderous charge) are good: Path to glory (re-roll hits against targets that are characters or titanic), Arch Fiend (6" heroic intervention great for area denial on all types of knights), Daemonic Vigor (all rolls are great on shooting knights, +2 movement, +1WS, +1BS), Galvanised Hull (reducing AP-1 is really strong against armies that mostly have AP-1 Ork Lootas/Tau missile pods). Profane Secret is for when you just want an extra CP and boost your leadership making you less like to be affected by burdens (or powers like mind control). The point is you can choose on the fly after seeing your opponents list, which makes them very powerful.

Burdens, I pick Forsaken it makes it less likely for you to fail your burden in the first place, effectively making it a leadership 9 test as opposed to a leadership 8 test (you have to roll under you leadership for burdens not equal or under like leadership tests). Then Warp Fugue (strike last doesn’t really cripple shooting knights as they tend to charge none combat specialist units). So even when you do fail a burden with those two traits it isn’t particularly crippling. If not being able to use stratagems on your knight is too much of a risk to your game plan, and you don’t mind failing burdens more often then Volatile Reactor (at the end of phase in which you took one or more wounds take a mortal wound on a 4+) is another option.

Just my thoughts.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 13:42:00


Post by: Tarnag


One thing that I believe was brought up by Reecius on the Chapter Tactics podcast was taking a Despoiler with two ranged weapons (his was double battle cannons but I definitely think two AGCs would work just as well) and giving it Vow of Carnage.

At first glance this seems a bit off, giving the CC Vow to a ranged knight, but the idea is that you spend the first few turns shooting down models and screens then charge in once you've built up an extra attack or two, you charge in with a ludicrous amount of stomps at AP -3. You're getting at least 15 with the Iconoclast bonus, and can pretty quickly reach 18-24 depending on the army you face. Since you build up the model count a lot more quickly with ranged weapons you come online earlier, in theory.

My thought was to bring this as a Despoiler with two AGCs and the Helm of Warpsight, and use it to clear screens for two CC focused Knights (in my case a Lancer and an Acheron, but CC Despoilers and Rampagers would work just as well) and then move up behind to charge in and clean up their leftovers.

Any thoughts? I can't seem to get it out of my head since I heard it yesterday.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 13:52:18


Post by: Nightlord1987


Would have preferred a Valiant, but I grabbed the IK Apocalypse box for the free Armigers.

What do we think is best traits/relics for the big baddie Castellan?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 13:59:56


Post by: Tarnag


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Would have preferred a Valiant, but I grabbed the IK Apocalypse box for the free Armigers.

What do we think is best traits/relics for the big baddie Castellan?

If you're Infernal, the extra strength and damage makes the Plasma close to a loyalist's Cawl's Wrath.

For Iconoclast, the Vow of Dominance on a Tyrant seems scary.

For relics, the one that lets your count as double wounds is good, also the Veil to save your CP and not have to rotate ion Shields would be good. He's also a pretty good target for making Obsec with Infernal Quest, since he's a pretty great backfield objective holder.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 18:35:31


Post by: Salt donkey


Mushkilla is right listen to him. Overall I like Iconoclast more than infernal. The Warpsurge table is very nice, but none of the infernal Stratagems excite me as much as the Iconclast vows.

Bind the souls of the defeated is nice when you need it, but it cost 2 CP and might fail to do much (you could fail to hit or wound enough models to get wounds back, or just roll not enough 4+) assuming you even want to use it.

Comeback on a 4+ is the best infernal stratagem, but could also fail and chaos doesn't have a stratagem to make a knight go back to full bracket.

Diabolic rift IMO is the most overrated stratagem of the book. A) it only works against pysker armies and B) probably wont actually work against pysker heavy armies. Good players know you have this stratagem, and they're going to avoid putting their pyskers near you knights when possible. There's also things like faseers and Magnus of the world who just ignore your mortal wounds on a 2+. Overall, not a great Stratagem.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/11 21:55:28


Post by: small_gods


Salt donkey wrote:
Mushkilla is right listen to him. Overall I like Iconoclast more than infernal. The Warpsurge table is very nice, but none of the infernal Stratagems excite me as much as the Iconclast vows.

Bind the souls of the defeated is nice when you need it, but it cost 2 CP and might fail to do much (you could fail to hit or wound enough models to get wounds back, or just roll not enough 4+) assuming you even want to use it.

Comeback on a 4+ is the best infernal stratagem, but could also fail and chaos doesn't have a stratagem to make a knight go back to full bracket.

Diabolic rift IMO is the most overrated stratagem of the book. A) it only works against pysker armies and B) probably wont actually work against pysker heavy armies. Good players know you have this stratagem, and they're going to avoid putting their pyskers near you knights when possible. There's also things like faseers and Magnus of the world who just ignore your mortal wounds on a 2+. Overall, not a great Stratagem.


I iconoclast definately have the edge out of the two houses imo, they are just more survivable and survivable knights are trouble for people (see 3++ castellan).

I would also say that the rampager/mele questoris are worth taking in a lot of lists. They are a wrecking machine over the double gat knight in mele, 3 more stomps hitting on 2+ or using the fist with Khornate target is super powerful. Plus they are 100 points cheaper.

I'm going to run 2x thermal, agc and stormspear questoris and a rampager with some red cosairs. I've run them in test games and they are durable and put out a lot of hurt.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 08:21:13


Post by: Pandabeer


Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 08:53:16


Post by: Mushkilla


Salt donkey wrote:
Mushkilla is right listen to him. Overall I like Iconoclast more than infernal. The Warpsurge table is very nice, but none of the infernal Stratagems excite me as much as the Iconclast vows.


Thanks. Although I think Iconoclast is stronger. I personally prefer infernal, yes there stratagems are situational but that's ok. If you need a knight to get back up to win the game, then a 4+ is better than nothing, etc.

The part that really sells me is Daemonic Surge, it's like having three really good stratagems that you can use on multiple knights at the same time and don't cost CP. Being able to take damage to improve the performance of your knights is great, as often I find a knight is either dead or sitting on full wounds. Also not all lists win by destroying your knights and in those match up trading resilience that you are not using for speed and damage is strong.

But that's just my take from the few games I've had with the new codex. I do still think Iconoclast is the stronger of the two.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 09:13:39


Post by: small_gods


Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.


I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 10:35:34


Post by: Pandabeer


 small_gods wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.


I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.


Hmm, pity :( I had an Iconoclast build in mind for a single Questoris Dreadblade to add to my Black Legion but it hinges on Vow of Dominance as it's crux. Hmm, maybe I'll get a box of Warglaives and field a big one and 3 or 4 small ones at about 1k points (usual game size for me) and a big one plus 2 small ones + BL batallion for the occasional 1.5K game.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 11:41:57


Post by: small_gods


Pandabeer wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.


I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.


Hmm, pity :( I had an Iconoclast build in mind for a single Questoris Dreadblade to add to my Black Legion but it hinges on Vow of Dominance as it's crux. Hmm, maybe I'll get a box of Warglaives and field a big one and 3 or 4 small ones at about 1k points (usual game size for me) and a big one plus 2 small ones + BL batallion for the occasional 1.5K game.


You can still use stratergems on them, they just lose the trait you get for it. So you can have an iconoclast knight that just doesn't get the extra attack on a charge etc. You should be good to go. If you need the trait, 2 wardogs aren't that expensive and will add some cp to the list too


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 14:39:53


Post by: Not Online!!!


Honest question.
A Melee knight desecrator.
Can that work? Especially in a mechanized R&H army?
Also what points would i be talking?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 15:21:57


Post by: small_gods


Not Online!!! wrote:
Honest question.
A Melee knight desecrator.
Can that work? Especially in a mechanized R&H army?
Also what points would i be talking?


I think the desecrator has to take laser destructor with either of the mele weapons it's 385 points. The Rampager is the double mele version it is 387 points. It's the same as the gallant but with 2 hits on natural 6s to hit with big mele weapons. You can also run it as knight despoiler (normal mele knight that can take carapace weapons but doesn't get exploding 6s).

Imo I wouldn't take a desecrator unless you had at least 2 wardogs to use his reroll aura. The weapon is adverage and it's expensive compared to a normal mele/shooty knight.

I really like the rampager, it's a beast and can make use of a lot of the decent artifacts and warlord traits. Wither the Khorne artifact the slanesh one or the relic fist are all good choices. It's also tough as nails if you run it as iconoclast and give it vow of dominance.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 15:25:17


Post by: Not Online!!!


 small_gods wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Honest question.
A Melee knight desecrator.
Can that work? Especially in a mechanized R&H army?
Also what points would i be talking?


I think the desecrator has to take laser destructor with either of the mele weapons it's 385 points. The Rampager is the double mele version it is 387 points. It's the same as the gallant but with 2 hits on natural 6s to hit with big mele weapons. You can also run it as knight despoiler (normal mele knight that can take carapace weapons but doesn't get exploding 6s).

Imo I wouldn't take a desecrator unless you had at least 2 wardogs to use his reroll aura. The weapon is adverage and it's expensive compared to a normal mele/shooty knight.

I really like the rampager, it's a beast and can make use of a lot of the decent artifacts and warlord traits. Wither the Khorne artifact the slanesh one or the relic fist are all good choices. It's also tough as nails if you run it as iconoclast and give it vow of dominance.


With wardogs you mean chaos amirigers right?

good, because i fully intend to magnetize one Chaos knight of the new set and i allready have to kitbahsed beauties regarding amirigers.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 15:53:54


Post by: small_gods


Yeah wardogs are the new chaos armigers. I've not tried them out myself. I've used 2 rampagers and a despoiler with avenger gatling cannon, thermal cannon and stormspear in a game. Really impressed with the iconoclast rampagers.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 19:43:22


Post by: Pandabeer


 small_gods wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
Something I've been wondering about... do you get to keep Iconoclast/ Infernal traits and relic (and stratagem?) access as a single Questoris Knight in an Auxiliary Superheavy Detachment? Because I thought in the Imperial codex you don't.


I think you loose the benefit of the household ambitions but keep everything else. Same as imperial, you could also make a dreadblade in a single detachment if you needed to.


Hmm, pity :( I had an Iconoclast build in mind for a single Questoris Dreadblade to add to my Black Legion but it hinges on Vow of Dominance as it's crux. Hmm, maybe I'll get a box of Warglaives and field a big one and 3 or 4 small ones at about 1k points (usual game size for me) and a big one plus 2 small ones + BL batallion for the occasional 1.5K game.


You can still use stratergems on them, they just lose the trait you get for it. So you can have an iconoclast knight that just doesn't get the extra attack on a charge etc. You should be good to go. If you need the trait, 2 wardogs aren't that expensive and will add some cp to the list too


I'll give it some thought, most I want from Iconoclast is the Vow of Dominance anyway because it's a fully kitted out Chaos Crusader. Then the Dreadblade relic for 5++ in melee and the Galvanized Hull pact for ignoring AP -1. Probably the anti-psychic WT as well through Court of Traitors (or something else if the opponent doesn't have Psykers). Then take Profane Secrets as well to get some of those CP back. Then Black Legion Batallion led by a Lord Discordant with Indomitable and Sightless Helm for a CC monster. That'll be two tanky bastards to take down at around 1.25k points Don't know if there's a way to fit it into 1k because I'm using CSM for troops (dislike Cultists, don't have them either).


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 22:19:16


Post by: BoomWolf


Can someone with book in-hand verify if you can be a dreadblade in an auxiliary superheavy detachment please?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/12 23:52:53


Post by: small_gods


 BoomWolf wrote:
Can someone with book in-hand verify if you can be a dreadblade in an auxiliary superheavy detachment please?


Yes, you can make any knight a dreadblade, it gains the dreadblade faction keyword. So theoretically all your knights can be dreadblades. One dreadblade per detachment can be given pacts and damnations.

It reads 'if your army is battleforged then before the battle you can give one dreadblade model in each detachment pacts and damnations'.

Super heavy auxiliary only stops you from benefitting from iconoclast or infernal household ambitions. It doesn't change any keywords.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 01:15:30


Post by: orkswubwub


So this bummed me out but probably balances the relic:

Helm of Warp-Sight - When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic, ignore hit roll modifiers.

So its only one weapon... still seems decent though against the right armies.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 02:15:34


Post by: Eldarain


orkswubwub wrote:
So this bummed me out but probably balances the relic:

Helm of Warp-Sight - When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic, ignore hit roll modifiers.

So its only one weapon... still seems decent though against the right armies.

If that's the wording, I don't see what limits it to one weapon.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 02:28:30


Post by: vaklor4


If it said once per turn, or CHOOSE a weapon then yes, it would stink. But it just says whenever you shoot with one.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 09:51:41


Post by: Mushkilla


orkswubwub wrote:
So this bummed me out but probably balances the relic:

Helm of Warp-Sight - When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic, ignore hit roll modifiers.

So its only one weapon... still seems decent though against the right armies.


Not sure how you are coming to that conclusion. But if you read the core rules -section 4. resolve attacks, it's pretty clear.

The wording is:

“When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this Relic, ignore hit roll modifiers”

Let's break it down.

when: Are you resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic?

YES

Then: Ignore hit roll modifiers.

...later when firing another weapon...

when: Are you resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this relic?

YES

Then: ignore hit roll modifiers.

...etc...

It's the same wording for all our stratagems relics.

Skyreaper protocols:

“... when resolving an attack made with that weapon against a unit that can FLY, you can re-roll the hit roll.”

when: Are you resolving an attack made with that weapon against a unit that can FLY

YES

Then: you can re-roll the hit roll.

...etc...

Hope that helps.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 10:48:47


Post by: BoomWolf


Yup, the helmet is clearly effecting all guns. its pretty darn good.

But so are so many other relics XD


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 13:22:09


Post by: Ideasweasel


Haven’t got my book yet.

Anyone with a copy able to confirm wardog variant points?

Also from my understanding the chaos equivalent of a gallant is now 387 points and a duel avenger gatling knight clocks in at 457?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 15:34:24


Post by: small_gods


 Ideasweasel wrote:
Haven’t got my book yet.

Anyone with a copy able to confirm wardog variant points?

Also from my understanding the chaos equivalent of a gallant is now 387 points and a duel avenger gatling knight clocks in at 457?


162 for chain cleaver with stubber and 172 fir autocannon with stubber.

Double Gatling knight with stubber is 485 now!!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 15:54:25


Post by: Ideasweasel


Thanks


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 19:24:11


Post by: Salt donkey


So I’ve gotten 4 practice games with codex with following list.

Iconoclast house

Melee despoiler, dreadblade = 372 points

Despoiler with 2 avenger gattling cannons and iron storm rocket pod. Warlord with veil of 4++ save = 501 points.

Depsoiler with thermo cannon, battle cannon, and stormspear rocket pod. Dreadblade = 479 points

Red Corsair battalion, soul forge pack

2 x disco lord= 320 points

3 x CSM squads= 195 points

Thousand sons aux

Ahriman on foot 131 points

In the 4 games I went 3-1, with the 1 loss coming against a billion fire warriors and triple riptide tau list. That matchup is a bad one for chaos knights IMO and it didn’t help that I misplayed a bunch during it. You have to fear fire warriors, but I was far too conservative when deploying my army. With that out of the way here are my overall thoughts.

Inconclast takes a bunch pre game mental space in order to get right. Between dreadblade pacts and damnations, vows, extra warlord traits, and extra relics there are a lot things you need to keep track of at the beginning of the game. It can be easy to go overboard here so make sure you have an idea of what things your going to want vs certain armies. Thankfully most of the “choices” you have here are mostly on auto pilot. Take the re-roll 1s on for wounding against 8+ wound models when facing said models. Take the sightless helmet if you are facing things with -1 to hit modifiers, etc.

Dreadblade pacts are very competitive. Make sure all your guys that can have these do have these. With the forsaken damnation you won’t fail the the leadership test very often, and the benifits you reap from this table can be game changing. In one of my games I faced knights with the G-man, and the re-roll hits against titanic units helped immensely here.

Bring lots of CPs with chaos knights! Somehow chaos knights want more CP than their imperial brethren. It’s gotten to the point where
I’m actually considering dropping the soulforge pact on my lord discordants, so that I save 2-3 CP each game. I even think the +1 CP dreadblade pact might be worth it from time to time. You’re going to want armies that bring 13+ CP minimum with chaos knights.

Wardog’s are a lot better for chaos than they are for imperial. Despite not playing with them in my list I can see wardogs being very good just for building detachments. Chaos armies want a lot of different things in a lists, so being able to fit more points into a knight list might be invaluable. I absolutely missed the board presence I normally get in my lists.








Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/13 19:38:55


Post by: bmsattler


Why are Wardogs better for Chaos than Imperial?

I've been considering Nurgle demons in a double-battalion to support Knights. You get a lot of decent screening and the Demon Prince can be an anti-flier anti-psyker benefit. You can summon or infiltrate Nurglings for protection against things like Genestealer Cults.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 00:59:29


Post by: Salt donkey


bmsattler wrote:
Why are Wardogs better for Chaos than Imperial?

I've been considering Nurgle demons in a double-battalion to support Knights. You get a lot of decent screening and the Demon Prince can be an anti-flier anti-psyker benefit. You can summon or infiltrate Nurglings for protection against things like Genestealer Cults.


Wardogs are better mainly because they can be dreadblades and that infernal is better for them than any house in imperial. S8 4D auto cannons are no joke, and the d6 random Benefit can be very good on a warglaive.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 01:01:19


Post by: JNAProductions


Salt donkey wrote:
bmsattler wrote:
Why are Wardogs better for Chaos than Imperial?

I've been considering Nurgle demons in a double-battalion to support Knights. You get a lot of decent screening and the Demon Prince can be an anti-flier anti-psyker benefit. You can summon or infiltrate Nurglings for protection against things like Genestealer Cults.


Wardogs are better mainly because they can be dreadblades and that infernal is better for them than any house in imperial. S8 4D auto cannons are no joke, and the d6 random Benefit can be very good on a warglaive.
On the one hand, FEAR ME VERTUS PRAETORS!

On the other hand, it's only four shots on average. So you're looking at 8/3 hits, 16/9 wounds, and 16/27 failed saves. Or, in other words, you need to get lucky to punk ONE Vertus Praetor.

Better against Dreads (same hits and wounds, but 8/9 failed saves) but still not GREAT.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 10:57:48


Post by: Mushkilla


Salt donkey wrote:

Wardogs are better mainly because they can be dreadblades and that infernal is better for them than any house in imperial. S8 4D auto cannons are no joke, and the d6 random Benefit can be very good on a warglaive.


Wouldn't you almost always rather make a knight despoiller a Dreadblade? You can only have one dreadblade choose pacts/damnations per detachment.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 13:24:37


Post by: BoomWolf


True, dreadblading the wardog is wasteful-but it IS an option, unlike for imperials.
So, if for some insane reason your list includes a singular wardog, he wan be a dreadblade.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 13:47:56


Post by: Azuza001


Here is an initial list thought.

Super heavy detachment - +6cp - iconoclass

Titan Castellen : 2 missiles, 2 seigebreakers, Dreadblade : pick ap-1 counts as ap0. Take volatile reactor and warp fatigue. Relic : 4++ invunerable. Take vow of dominance. Make warlord, give 6+++ from big book. 704 pts for a durable warlord. (-2cp for vow)

Knight Disploiler : 2 avenger gattling, ironstorm missile pod. vow of carnage (-2cp for vow). 481 pts.

Knight Disploiler : 2 rapid fire gattling cannons, ironstorm missile pod. Vow of beastslayer (-1cp). 491 pts. Tyrants banner for -1cp



Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)

Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)


Total : 2000 pts, 5cp, with potential to get more.

Just me looking at dreadblades and thinking they are awsome, but hows the best setup for them? Alternatively you could drop the iron storm pods and turn the warglaives into autocannon varients.




Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 14:38:52


Post by: JNAProductions


You can't have more than one Dreadblade that has benefits from it in the same list.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 14:41:21


Post by: Mushkilla


Azuza001 wrote:
Here is an initial list thought.

Super heavy detachment - +6cp - iconoclass

Titan Castellen : 2 missiles, 2 seigebreakers, Dreadblade : pick ap-1 counts as ap0. Take volatile reactor and warp fatigue. Relic : 4++ invunerable. Take vow of dominance. Make warlord, give 6+++ from big book. 704 pts for a durable warlord. (-2cp for vow)

Knight Disploiler : 2 avenger gattling, ironstorm missile pod. vow of carnage (-2cp for vow). 481 pts.

Knight Disploiler : 2 rapid fire gattling cannons, ironstorm missile pod. Vow of beastslayer (-1cp). 491 pts. Tyrants banner for -1cp



Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)

Super heavy auxiliary detachment -

Wardog : warglaive, dreadblade, +1 cp vow, forsaken and warp fauge for damnations. 162 pts (+1 cp)


Total : 2000 pts, 5cp, with potential to get more.

Just me looking at dreadblades and thinking they are awsome, but hows the best setup for them? Alternatively you could drop the iron storm pods and turn the warglaives into autocannon varients.




A few points:

1) Both Chaos Knights and Imperial Knights cannot take warlord traits from the main rulebook. It says so on their warlord trait page.

2) The +1 CP Pact (knower of profane secrets) only gives you a maximum of 1CP regardless of how many knights you have with it.

On an unrelated note I just noticed that rotate ion shield has been change in the Chaos codex to only works for ranged attacks, so no 4++ in melee with the Dreadblade relic.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 15:30:32


Post by: Xirax


Wonder if the following could work in semi-comp meta?

Red corsair batallion

2x Lord discordant

20x marines + 2x reaper chaincannon
5x marines
5x marines

Chaos knights

Despoiler + 2x avenger gatling cannon
Desecrator
2x wardogs + autocannons

How do you feel?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 16:43:35


Post by: Salt donkey


May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.

As far as pure knights go, if you want to win ITC best in faction for chaos knights just know there will be stiff competition for it, and that pure knights are frankly much worse than knights in soup. If you can live with that go ahead, but these are the facts.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 17:04:36


Post by: Mushkilla


Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.


You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 17:05:42


Post by: orkswubwub


Naive knight question - If i take a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment - I give up the legion traits - but I can still use the stratagems that are specific for that house, access the relics and get warlord traits?

For example - I could give an iconoclast despoiler in a super heavy aux 2 gats with flamers, the helm to mitigate hit modifier, and then use the vox pre-game to let me reroll wounds. And still make it a dreadblade?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 17:50:52


Post by: Salt donkey


 Mushkilla wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.


You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations


Oh that makes sense, While it is a bummer, at least this means you can designate multiple knights as Dreadblades, then decide which one gets packs and damnation based on match-up.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 19:00:15


Post by: small_gods


orkswubwub wrote:
Naive knight question - If i take a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment - I give up the legion traits - but I can still use the stratagems that are specific for that house, access the relics and get warlord traits?

For example - I could give an iconoclast despoiler in a super heavy aux 2 gats with flamers, the helm to mitigate hit modifier, and then use the vox pre-game to let me reroll wounds. And still make it a dreadblade?


Yes the only thing that you give up with aux detachments is the ambition trait. I think double thermal with stormspear is a good bet if you need to take down some armour and you can choose all your artifacts, warlord traits and dreadblade pacts and damnations when you see your opponent.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/14 21:34:03


Post by: Azuza001


I didnt see the the thing about the warlord traits, good catch.

Yeah you can have multiple dreadblades with the pacts, they just have to be in separate deatchments. Thats why i put the wardogs in their own super heavy auxiliary detachments.

Also good catch on multiple uses of the secrets pact only earns you 1cp. Weird they did that but ok.

As far as rotate ion shields i thought the imperial one was worded the same way, no 4++ in cc even with the relic to get a 5++ in cc.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 07:45:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Anyone else thinking dual Avengers with the 'No Hit Modifiers' Relic?

I can see that ruining quite a few flying circus days out?

Also feel somewhat drawn to the Tzeentchian Hotseat. Being able to flick out a Smite could be quite saucy, spesh as it only costs CP to obtain?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 09:52:01


Post by: small_gods


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone else thinking dual Avengers with the 'No Hit Modifiers' Relic?

I can see that ruining quite a few flying circus days out?

Also feel somewhat drawn to the Tzeentchian Hotseat. Being able to flick out a Smite could be quite saucy, spesh as it only costs CP to obtain?


I've tried a couple of games with the thermal, avenger gatling and stormspear (1 point more than double avenger). It's worked well. I've not played flyers but I played custodes with banner and that and a rampager with Khornate target ripped them apart!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 10:20:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


What other combos have people played around with?

I mean, we've far more freedom to mix and match than Loyalist Knights, I think? Are the RFBC still generally frowned upon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote:
As far as rotate ion shields i thought the imperial one was worded the same way, no 4++ in cc even with the relic to get a 5++ in cc.


This is, I'm 89.5783% sure is the result of an FAQ/Eratta?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 11:55:12


Post by: Mushkilla


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote:
As far as rotate ion shields i thought the imperial one was worded the same way, no 4++ in cc even with the relic to get a 5++ in cc.


This is, I'm 89.5783% sure is the result of an FAQ/Eratta?


No the imperial knight version of rotate ion shield does not specify ranged attacks. So it currently can increase your invulnerable save in close combat.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 12:36:44


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Will have to check me books and documents and that when I get home

Always good to make sure I've got the right end of the stick, spesh when I likely have the wrong end


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 13:25:53


Post by: BAN


I suck at list writing, what can I fit in 1750?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 16:36:12


Post by: small_gods


BAN wrote:
I suck at list writing, what can I fit in 1750?


If you want full knights you can get 2 knights with thermal, avenger gatling cannon and stormspear. 2x rampagers and a wardog. If you just want knights only.

I'd take a min bat of red cosairs for cp though


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 19:38:45


Post by: BAN


Yeh I would prefer knights only, cheers


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 20:28:36


Post by: Salt donkey


 Mushkilla wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.


You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations


Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 21:05:34


Post by: small_gods


Salt donkey wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.


You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations


Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.


The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 21:09:37


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


BAN wrote:
Yeh I would prefer knights only, cheers


I wouldn’t write off Wardogs. If you choose to with specialist rather than combined arms Knights, they can plug gaps in your tactical options. They’re particularly useful for dogging your enemies flanks, and either softening up or polishing off enemy units you need to be dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man.....

I can fit quite a bit into a 1750 list.

Knight Desecrator with Thunderstrike and Heavy Stubber comes in at 422

Knight Despoiler with dual Avenger Gatling Cannon and Heavy Stubber is 457.

Knight Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet, plus Heavy Stubber is a ‘mere’ 307. Could upgrade it to a Rampager for 322.

Three War Dogs with Heavy Stubbers, with main armament to be decided are 162 a pop, or 486 together.

1687 all in. That leaves points spare to upgrade some Heavy Stubbers to Meltaguns (12 point difference between the options)

Command Points wise? I don’t think it makes a difference to my total CP? Because I can field two with at least one Titanic, I get 3CP for each. And if I do a single Lance (with the War Dogs deploying as squadrons, natch) I get 6CP, as it’ll have three Titanic units.

Of course, that’s if I’m reading things right, and haven’t missed a core FAQ or eratta type thing?

Reckon splitting is better, as I can then have two characters, and I can’t think of an actual downside? Sure, there’ll be a 1CP tax to give them a Relic too, but I figure that’s an equal trade?

Thoughts?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at it, I think that’s a force I can work with.

Plenty of speed, some serious HTH power, and if I keep the Pups near the Desecrator, I get some nice Bubblebuff without having to spend a single CP.

Relics wise? Pretty sure the Despoiler will have the Helm of No Hit Mods. And the Diamonas means I get the most out of the Desecrator’s shooting, as it’ll always get 3 shots, and the extra Strength (16 vs 14) means I’ll have a far easier time wounding vehicles and assorted big stuff. Seems a real no-brainer to me?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 22:18:33


Post by: Salt donkey


 small_gods wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.


You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations


Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.


The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.


See that’s what’s confusing me. “Additional pact and Damnation” clearly sounds like they expect you take to it on knight who already has them, but but the restriction for the relic itself is set to the model having a dreadblade keyword. So does this mean I can get the 5++ and not the pact and damnation? Furthermore can “an additional pact and damnation” mean for the detachment as a whole, or can “additional” mean ‘in addition to zero pacts and damnation?”

I know I’m being a bit of rules lawyer here, but once again this feels like GW just kinda of expected everyone to take 1 dreadblade per detachment despite it being more competitive to take as many as you can. Therefore in this case it may be that RAI says that knights have stack the multiple bonuses, but I don’t believe anything in RAW says that I can’t.

(Btw this matters a lot because I’m fairly certain no max competitive chaos knight army will ever run more than one knight detachment, as chaos offers too much as whole to sacrifice 2 detachment slots for 1, very point expensive army)


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/15 22:59:30


Post by: small_gods


Salt donkey wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
May I ask where everyone is seeing this 1 dreadblade per detachment rule? I can’t find it where I’m looking.


You can have as many dreadblades per detachment as you want but only one per detachment can have Pacts/Damnations. It's on the same page as the Pacts/Damnations second paragraph page 67.

If your army is Battle-forged, then before the battle you can give one DREADBLADE model in each Detachment Pacts and Damnations


Next question. Can I use the 5++ CC dreadblade relic to give a non-pacted dreadblade a pact and damnation? This would be really helpful for the knight, ork, and tau matchups.


The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.


See that’s what’s confusing me. “Additional pact and Damnation” clearly sounds like they expect you take to it on knight who already has them, but but the restriction for the relic itself is set to the model having a dreadblade keyword. So does this mean I can get the 5++ and not the pact and damnation? Furthermore can “an additional pact and damnation” mean for the detachment as a whole, or can “additional” mean ‘in addition to zero pacts and damnation?”

I know I’m being a bit of rules lawyer here, but once again this feels like GW just kinda of expected everyone to take 1 dreadblade per detachment despite it being more competitive to take as many as you can. Therefore in this case it may be that RAI says that knights have stack the multiple bonuses, but I don’t believe anything in RAW says that I can’t.

(Btw this matters a lot because I’m fairly certain no max competitive chaos knight army will ever run more than one knight detachment, as chaos offers too much as whole to sacrifice 2 detachment slots for 1, very point expensive army)


It says 'That model gains an additional pact and damnation of your choice.' I think it's a stretch to say that additional means in addition to zero and it's talking about models and not detachments.

You could try and argue it with the TO, but I would guess that until there was an faq to clarify, they'd likely say no.

I think it's usefulness comes from the fact that you can roll for pacts and damnations originally to get the chance of getting 3 decent buffs (pacts seem geared towards mele knights, so you have a good chance of something useful) and you can choose your third. Same with damnations you can roll for one and select forsaken if you don't get it first time round.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 00:40:05


Post by: COLD CASH


anyone know when battlescribe is going to be updated for the knights of Dark Renown!!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 01:23:05


Post by: Salt donkey


 small_gods wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:


The way the relic reads:

'You may give this model an additional pact and damnation'

makes it look like you can only give it to a model who already has pacts and damnations. The damnations part also makes it sound like you can only give it to one model per detachment too.

You could always have a second auxiliary detachment to give a second lot of pacts.


See that’s what’s confusing me. “Additional pact and Damnation” clearly sounds like they expect you take to it on knight who already has them, but but the restriction for the relic itself is set to the model having a dreadblade keyword. So does this mean I can get the 5++ and not the pact and damnation? Furthermore can “an additional pact and damnation” mean for the detachment as a whole, or can “additional” mean ‘in addition to zero pacts and damnation?”

I know I’m being a bit of rules lawyer here, but once again this feels like GW just kinda of expected everyone to take 1 dreadblade per detachment despite it being more competitive to take as many as you can. Therefore in this case it may be that RAI says that knights have stack the multiple bonuses, but I don’t believe anything in RAW says that I can’t.

(Btw this matters a lot because I’m fairly certain no max competitive chaos knight army will ever run more than one knight detachment, as chaos offers too much as whole to sacrifice 2 detachment slots for 1, very point expensive army)


It says 'That model gains an additional pact and damnation of your choice.' I think it's a stretch to say that additional means in addition to zero and it's talking about models and not detachments.

You could try and argue it with the TO, but I would guess that until there was an faq to clarify, they'd likely say no.

I think it's usefulness comes from the fact that you can roll for pacts and damnations originally to get the chance of getting 3 decent buffs (pacts seem geared towards mele knights, so you have a good chance of something useful) and you can choose your third. Same with damnations you can roll for one and select forsaken if you don't get it first time round.


Mostly it comes down to what’s permissible vs what’s makes sense grammatically. Yes “additional” makes it clear that GW expects you to take it on a model that already has pacts and damnations, but no where does it say you can’t.

Nether-less you’re right we’ll need an FAQ and frankly I don’t want to be that guy on the board who argues this ad nauseam on tactics article, so I won’t use it until I’m sure I’m right. So back on topic, what are people’s thoughts on solo knights in a chaos soup list? Better or worse then purge Deredeo dreadnoughts?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 01:27:49


Post by: Resin Glazed Guardsman


I'd like to build a list with a Valiant (or whatever its Chaos counterpart is) along with a rampager, double chaingun knight, and two wardogs. What would be the best way to run that combo?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 03:16:37


Post by: Azuza001


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
BAN wrote:
Yeh I would prefer knights only, cheers


I wouldn’t write off Wardogs. If you choose to with specialist rather than combined arms Knights, they can plug gaps in your tactical options. They’re particularly useful for dogging your enemies flanks, and either softening up or polishing off enemy units you need to be dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man.....

I can fit quite a bit into a 1750 list.

Knight Desecrator with Thunderstrike and Heavy Stubber comes in at 422

Knight Despoiler with dual Avenger Gatling Cannon and Heavy Stubber is 457.

Knight Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword and Thunderstrike Gauntlet, plus Heavy Stubber is a ‘mere’ 307. Could upgrade it to a Rampager for 322.

Three War Dogs with Heavy Stubbers, with main armament to be decided are 162 a pop, or 486 together.

1687 all in. That leaves points spare to upgrade some Heavy Stubbers to Meltaguns (12 point difference between the options)

Command Points wise? I don’t think it makes a difference to my total CP? Because I can field two with at least one Titanic, I get 3CP for each. And if I do a single Lance (with the War Dogs deploying as squadrons, natch) I get 6CP, as it’ll have three Titanic units.

Of course, that’s if I’m reading things right, and haven’t missed a core FAQ or eratta type thing?

Reckon splitting is better, as I can then have two characters, and I can’t think of an actual downside? Sure, there’ll be a 1CP tax to give them a Relic too, but I figure that’s an equal trade?

Thoughts?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at it, I think that’s a force I can work with.

Plenty of speed, some serious HTH power, and if I keep the Pups near the Desecrator, I get some nice Bubblebuff without having to spend a single CP.

Relics wise? Pretty sure the Despoiler will have the Helm of No Hit Mods. And the Diamonas means I get the most out of the Desecrator’s shooting, as it’ll always get 3 shots, and the extra Strength (16 vs 14) means I’ll have a far easier time wounding vehicles and assorted big stuff. Seems a real no-brainer to me?


I am not sure about all your points but i know your despoiler with sword and fist is wrong. The cost of the despolier that has a reaper chainsword and thunderstrike gauntlet is base 305 without equipment, you still have to pay the 65 pts for those weapons and 2 for the heavy stubber. Look above at the top of the chart, it says points per model (not including wargear). The reason the model costs more based if you give it the sword/fist is the ws2+ and extra attack.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 06:03:36


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yeah. Friend at my local games club pointed out a few errors.

Ah well. Shall rejig it all tonight, see how it pans out.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 08:09:30


Post by: Latro_


Anyone had much luck yet vs something like orks running double gatling an then extra attack for 10mods killed? so go in with it and stomp

seems like it could be insane.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 08:17:16


Post by: small_gods


 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I'd like to build a list with a Valiant (or whatever its Chaos counterpart is) along with a rampager, double chaingun knight, and two wardogs. What would be the best way to run that combo?


I think the valiant would do well in an infernal detachment because his bighest weakness is his lack of mobility. Plus when he's in range who doesn't want 3d6 str 8 -2ap 3 damage auto hits??

I think Iconoclast has some more reliable buffs but it makes most sense to stick them all in one detachment for CP.

If you were willing to swap out the double gat knight for two wardogs you could run both detachments and get the best out of each household.

Also you could make 2 dreadblades. I'd give the valliant the dreadblade or tzeentch relic for extra defense. With 3 decent pacts and a 5++ in combat he coild start to get difficult to shift.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 09:00:21


Post by: astro_nomicon


 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone had much luck yet vs something like orks running double gatling an then extra attack for 10mods killed? so go in with it and stomp

seems like it could be insane.


That seems like the most most obvious plug-and-play build from the codex at the moment.

I haven’t had a detailed read of the codex yet, but a dual gat Knight with helm of warp sight and vow of carnage just seems like such a solid utilitarian kit that it’s hard to dismiss despite being the ‘obvious’ choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something in me says that there’s a more nuanced build hiding in there amongst all the relics, warlord traits and pacts that can be combined to create an even more optimal Knight for a chaos soup list, but at the same time something has to be said for the sweet sheer simplicity of aforementioned double gats extra stompy Knight


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 09:37:51


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I don't undertstand how the chaos knights codex can word a simple point cost with so much confusion. It says the point cost for the models are without their war gear. Then they go and price separately a "gallant" despoiler at a higher point cost than a base despoiler with zero stuff on it.

So, a Gallant "despoiler" is now more expensive than a IK Gallant?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 10:45:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


My points are also out, as I forgot to pay for the Heavy Flamers.

I think I can still squeak it all in though. Will have another look tonight.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 11:27:03


Post by: Latro_


Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't undertstand how the chaos knights codex can word a simple point cost with so much confusion. It says the point cost for the models are without their war gear. Then they go and price separately a "gallant" despoiler at a higher point cost than a base despoiler with zero stuff on it.

So, a Gallant "despoiler" is now more expensive than a IK Gallant?


yep they are literally more expensive.. rampager is a bit more too on top of that obv for the exploding 6's. Reasons could be that GW are offsetting a bit higher costs because from what i can tell chaos knights are going to be better in combat vs imperials (this includes being faster) but this is barely the only thing i can think of - unless ofc in the next FAQ IK gallants are going up in pts.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/16 16:25:44


Post by: Ideasweasel


Shh Latro, let’s not stir up the nerf monster from his slumber in between FAQ’s......

ZzzzZZzzzZzz

.......I think we got away with it


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 03:26:33


Post by: ZergSmasher


Something I've been thinking about is running the 3 Flawless Host DiscoLords, but instead of the usual complement of various FW Dreadnoughts or Daemon Engines, run a Knight Despoiler with 2 Gatling Cannons and a pair of War Dogs with Autocannons. Add Heldrakes to taste, and profit. Thinking I might have to fit a small Red Corsairs battalion in there also for the extra CP, but that's a fair amount of points. Here's a list idea I came up with:
Spoiler:
Red Corsairs Battalion
Master of Possession
Warpsmith
3x 5 Chaos Space Marines
2x Heldrake with Baleflamer
Chaos Knight Superheavy Detachment (Iconoclast)
Knight Despoiler: 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
Flawless Host Supreme Command
Soulforged Pack
3x Lord Discordant


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 06:07:18


Post by: shogun


Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't undertstand how the chaos knights codex can word a simple point cost with so much confusion. It says the point cost for the models are without their war gear. Then they go and price separately a "gallant" despoiler at a higher point cost than a base despoiler with zero stuff on it.

So, a Gallant "despoiler" is now more expensive than a IK Gallant?


Because a lot of players really want to find loopholes and read what the want to read.

1: It says 'wargear not included',
2: 305 points is way to cheap for a full close combat knight,
3: A despoiler with chain/gauntlet get's an +1WS + 1A so maybe that's why you pay an extra 20 points.

It is not rocket science people...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 08:03:50


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


So when can we expect the FAQ for the Codex?

Is it this week or next?

Also, because I'm afraid I'm having a Thick, where does it say a Despoiler with Chain/Gauntlet gets the WS and A bonus? Because isn't that a Rampager?

For clarity, these are genuine questions, and aren't to be read as an expression of doubt that Shogun is right!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 08:16:56


Post by: Salt donkey


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So when can we expect the FAQ for the Codex?

Is it this week or next?

Also, because I'm afraid I'm having a Thick, where does it say a Despoiler with Chain/Gauntlet gets the WS and A bonus? Because isn't that a Rampager?

For clarity, these are genuine questions, and aren't to be read as an expression of doubt that Shogun is right!


The FAQ will likely come out next week or the week after.

The Despoiler Datasheet gives the +1 WS +1A to CC a knight. Really the rampager is 15 more points simply for the fist/chainsword attack gimmick. Just run your Ramager as a despoiler if you bought one. I can guarantee you pretty much no one will care.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 08:26:25


Post by: blackmage


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Something I've been thinking about is running the 3 Flawless Host DiscoLords, but instead of the usual complement of various FW Dreadnoughts or Daemon Engines, run a Knight Despoiler with 2 Gatling Cannons and a pair of War Dogs with Autocannons. Add Heldrakes to taste, and profit. Thinking I might have to fit a small Red Corsairs battalion in there also for the extra CP, but that's a fair amount of points. Here's a list idea I came up with:
Spoiler:
Red Corsairs Battalion
Master of Possession
Warpsmith
3x 5 Chaos Space Marines
2x Heldrake with Baleflamer
Chaos Knight Superheavy Detachment (Iconoclast)
Knight Despoiler: 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
Flawless Host Supreme Command
Soulforged Pack
3x Lord Discordant

yes is close to a build im actually testing but i play 2 warglaives (so i have extra melee support) and no helldrakes, i play 3 venomcrawlers+sorcerer for warptime but i would squeeze into list a MoP.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 08:45:08


Post by: small_gods


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Something I've been thinking about is running the 3 Flawless Host DiscoLords, but instead of the usual complement of various FW Dreadnoughts or Daemon Engines, run a Knight Despoiler with 2 Gatling Cannons and a pair of War Dogs with Autocannons. Add Heldrakes to taste, and profit. Thinking I might have to fit a small Red Corsairs battalion in there also for the extra CP, but that's a fair amount of points. Here's a list idea I came up with:
Spoiler:
Red Corsairs Battalion
Master of Possession
Warpsmith
3x 5 Chaos Space Marines
2x Heldrake with Baleflamer
Chaos Knight Superheavy Detachment (Iconoclast)
Knight Despoiler: 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
War Dog: 2x War Dog Autocannon
Flawless Host Supreme Command
Soulforged Pack
3x Lord Discordant


The master of possession and warpsmith won't work across different legions. You'd be better just taking the LDs as red cosairs to swap extra attacks for advance and charge and save 158 points. Which could buy you a cc wardog or a maulerfiend/defiler.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 11:12:36


Post by: blackmage


What you think about damnations/pacts for dreadblades someone tried them?
the main problem i found with MoP in a list like that is it's too slow, hard keep models within 6"


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 12:38:19


Post by: Mushkilla


Something I've been thinking about is how CP hungry are Chaos Knights?

At first I thought they were more CP hungry than Imperial Knights but now I'm not so sure. To the point where I'm questioning even running an allied battalion.

Imperial knights need CP to take a bunch of relics and warlord traits (they tend to want to spend 6CP here as their relics and traits add a lot of raw power/survivability). Then they need CP for rotate ion shields and machine spirit resurgent (likely to be 2CP a turn) add order of the companions if you are house raven and you have a real CP burning machine.

Chaos Knights on the other hand definitely have the potential to be CP hungry. But after a closer look I feel they don't need to be. Our warlord traits are a mixed bag, and outside of taking warp haunted hull against armies with psykers I don't see myself spending CP on tyrannical court let alone 3CP. The same goes for our relics, we have some great match up specific relics but I don't see myself taking more than 2 (1 for free and 1 for 1 CP) of them in any given match up. Looking at the regular stratagems I don't see myself using them often either, as most are situational. Rotate ion shield is definitely strong but only when your opponent can't target multiple knights with the same weapons or has most of his firepower concentrated on a single unit. That leaves Trail of Destruction which is great. But, Is it better than having more stuff?

Trail of Destruction increases your damage output by:

BS/WS 3 33%
BS/WS 4 50%
BS/WS 5 66%

It actually gets more effective as you start to degrade. Being the least effective at BS3.

The cheapest red corsairs battalion we can field is:

2x warpsmith 3x 5 chaos marines - 315pts

This gets you 8 more CP and 17 T4 bodies. Say we have 3 knight despoilers each with reaper and avenger in this list. What can you do with those 8 CP? Increase the firepower of a single knight by 33-66% for 4 turns. Or you could drop the red corsair battalion and upgrade the reaper chainsaws on those knights to avenger Gatling cannons for 207pts increasing the firepower all your knights by 100% for the rest of the game.

Now I know this is an oversimplified and extreme example. But it does help focus the question on whether running that CP battalion (that doesn't being any other value) is really worth it.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 12:46:23


Post by: DoomMouse


One extra use I make heavy use of is exploding knights on a 4+ (and a reroll if necessary)

In the right situation that can totally swing the game!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 12:54:23


Post by: small_gods


 Mushkilla wrote:
Something I've been thinking about is how CP hungry are Chaos Knights?

At first I thought they were more CP hungry than Imperial Knights but now I'm not so sure. To the point where I'm questioning even running an allied battalion.

Imperial knights need CP to take a bunch of relics and warlord traits (they tend to want to spend 6CP here as their relics and traits add a lot of raw power/survivability). Then they need CP for rotate ion shields and machine spirit resurgent (likely to be 2CP a turn) add order of the companions if you are house raven and you have a real CP burning machine.

Chaos Knights on the other hand definitely have the potential to be CP hungry. But after a closer look I feel they don't need to be. Our warlord traits are a mixed bag, and outside of taking warp haunted hull against armies with psykers I don't see myself spending CP on tyrannical court let alone 3CP. The same goes for our relics, we have some great match up specific relics but I don't see myself taking more than 2 (1 for free and 1 for 1 CP) of them in any given match up. Looking at the regular stratagems I don't see myself using them often either, as most are situational. Rotate ion shield is definitely strong but only when your opponent can't target multiple knights with the same weapons or has most of his firepower concentrated on a single unit. That leaves Trail of Destruction which is great. But, Is it better than having more stuff?

Trail of Destruction increases your damage output by:

BS/WS 3 33%
BS/WS 4 50%
BS/WS 5 66%

It actually gets more effective as you start to degrade. Being the least effective at BS3.

The cheapest red corsairs battalion we can field is:

2x warpsmith 3x 5 chaos marines - 315pts

This gets you 8 more CP and 17 T4 bodies. Say we have 3 knight despoilers each with reaper and avenger in this list. What can you do with those 8 CP? Increase the firepower of a single knight by 33-66% for 4 turns. Or you could drop the red corsair battalion and upgrade the reaper chainsaws on those knights to avenger Gatling cannons for 207pts increasing the firepower all your knights by 100% for the rest of the game.

Now I know this is an oversimplified and extreme example. But it does help focus the question on whether running that CP battalion (that doesn't being any other value) is really worth it.


I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 13:45:58


Post by: Mushkilla


 small_gods wrote:


I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.


So I guess my view was you go infernal. You spend at most 2CP before deployment, that gives you 7-9CP. You then ally in a thousand sons supreme command to get death hex and gaze of fate for re-rolls and helm of the third eye (and an extra CP which you use to get the helm). Then use summoning for creating bodies if and when you need them. That sort of thing.

Or just summon a 65pt change caster for gaze of fate and summon chaff as needed (forgoing the thousand sons all together). I find screens/scoring units that my opponent get to shoot off the board turn 1 less effective that summoning screens/scoring units if and when I need them.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 13:54:45


Post by: small_gods


 Mushkilla wrote:
 small_gods wrote:


I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.


So I guess my view was you go infernal. You spend at most 2CP before deployment, that gives you 7-9CP. You then ally in a thousand sons supreme command to get death hex and gaze of fate for re-rolls and helm of the third eye (and an extra CP which you use to get the helm). Then use summoning for creating bodies if and when you need them. That sort of thing.

Or just summon a 65pt change caster for gaze of fate and summon chaff as needed (forgoing the thousand sons all together). I find screens/scoring units that my opponent get to shoot off the board turn 1 less effective that summoning screens/scoring units if and when I need them.


I suppose it depends on what mission types and sort of terrain that you play regularly. I tend to play ITC missions on fairly crowded terrain so there's plenty of places to hide units. Bring in screen from behind LOS etc.

I just think knights aim to destroy as much of their opponent as possible and not score objectives so generally they kill much more but lose on points. So supporing units become really useful.

60 plaguebearers in a daemon battalion and 3 knights is probably going to be the way to go.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 17:50:53


Post by: Salt donkey


While I can understand wanting to not have to a take a CP detachment with chaos knights, the fact of the matter is that Trail of Destruction is important enough by itself to warrant using one. Sure it doesn't always buff your knight's shooting by too much, but it adds a layer of constituency which is extremely important when you need it. Also consider that outside of house certain house specific stratagems, Imperial knights don't actually spend many CP on their own stratagems. You're right that chaos doesn't spend as much on relics and warlord traits, but stuff like vows and trail really make up difference. Finally there's things like CP re-rolls you have to consider, as knights care a lot more about re-rolls than a lot of other armies. You kinda have to budget 3-4 CP for re-rolls during the game. I may not always use red corsairs for CP, but I think you're always going to want a battalion of some sort with chaos knights.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 18:07:22


Post by: dreadblade


Tzeentchian pyrothrone + warp-haunted hull


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 18:07:33


Post by: DudleyGrim


 small_gods wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
 small_gods wrote:


I think although they might not need the extra cp (especially with infernal household) I think you'd struggle with only 9cp when you'll likely need to use 2-6 pregame on relics and if you're taking vows 3-6 cp (vow of carnage looks great on a double avenger build).

That leads you with around 4cp left. If you rotate for 3 turns and reroll one charge dice then you're done.

Plus you need bodies to score objectives, screen deepstrike etc. I think a red cosair or daemon battalion would work really well knights and fill a lot of their gaps.


So I guess my view was you go infernal. You spend at most 2CP before deployment, that gives you 7-9CP. You then ally in a thousand sons supreme command to get death hex and gaze of fate for re-rolls and helm of the third eye (and an extra CP which you use to get the helm). Then use summoning for creating bodies if and when you need them. That sort of thing.

Or just summon a 65pt change caster for gaze of fate and summon chaff as needed (forgoing the thousand sons all together). I find screens/scoring units that my opponent get to shoot off the board turn 1 less effective that summoning screens/scoring units if and when I need them.


I suppose it depends on what mission types and sort of terrain that you play regularly. I tend to play ITC missions on fairly crowded terrain so there's plenty of places to hide units. Bring in screen from behind LOS etc.

I just think knights aim to destroy as much of their opponent as possible and not score objectives so generally they kill much more but lose on points. So supporing units become really useful.

60 plaguebearers in a daemon battalion and 3 knights is probably going to be the way to go.


I was thinking this as well as I was reading some of the stuff that Chaos Knights received in the codex. I was thinking of something like this, if you have some better ideas on alternative choices do feel free to let me know!

Spoiler:

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [68 PL, -2CP, 1,257pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: One model

Tyrannical Court [-1CP]: One model

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 516pts]: 1.Infernal Quest, Character (Traitoris Lance), Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Infernal Household, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Warlord
. Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon
. Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 397pts]: 3. Knight Diabolus, Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirloom, Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Khornate Target, Reaper chainsword, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thunderstrike gauntlet

War Dogs [9 PL, 172pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Two War Dog autocannons

War Dogs [9 PL, 172pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Two War Dog autocannons

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [38 PL, 743pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle

+ HQ +

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Miasma of Pestilence

Spoilpox Scrivener [4 PL, 95pts]

+ Troops +

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Plaguebearers [12 PL, 235pts]: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos, 29x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden

Plaguebearers [12 PL, 235pts]: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos, 29x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden

++ Total: [106 PL, -2CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


I had 45 points lying around exactly, so I bought the second Stormspear missile pod on my gallant-equivalent. I am not sure how GOOD it will actually be though as I am planning on advancing him and using full tilt turn one to get him into combat with something. Likewise I chose the Scrivener as I needed to fill points and I honestly like him better than the normal Bilepiper (Never had that 1 roll on my morale tests yet).

I think I am liking the idea of using 2xRFBC with the Infernal Household. The option to riptide it up multiple times, across several models in a turn can lead to some pretty sick alpha strikes. The RFBC also has a lot more options for targets and better range. Lastly, the 1cp stratagem to buff heavy stubbers to strength 5 might be pretty fun with the 3 stubbers on the model.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 18:23:50


Post by: Mushkilla


Salt donkey wrote:
While I can understand wanting to not have to a take a CP detachment with chaos knights, the fact of the matter is that Trail of Destruction is important enough by itself to warrant using one. Sure it doesn't always buff your knight's shooting by too much, but it adds a layer of constituency which is extremely important when you need it. Also consider that outside of house certain house specific stratagems, Imperial knights don't actually spend many CP on their own stratagems. You're right that chaos doesn't spend as much on relics and warlord traits, but stuff like vows and trail really make up difference. Finally there's things like CP re-rolls you have to consider, as knights care a lot more about re-rolls than a lot of other armies. You kinda have to budget 3-4 CP for re-rolls during the game. I may not always use red corsairs for CP, but I think you're always going to want a battalion of some sort with chaos knights.


Out of curiosity what do you tend to use re-rolls on with knights?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 18:53:31


Post by: Salt donkey


 Mushkilla wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
While I can understand wanting to not have to a take a CP detachment with chaos knights, the fact of the matter is that Trail of Destruction is important enough by itself to warrant using one. Sure it doesn't always buff your knight's shooting by too much, but it adds a layer of constituency which is extremely important when you need it. Also consider that outside of house certain house specific stratagems, Imperial knights don't actually spend many CP on their own stratagems. You're right that chaos doesn't spend as much on relics and warlord traits, but stuff like vows and trail really make up difference. Finally there's things like CP re-rolls you have to consider, as knights care a lot more about re-rolls than a lot of other armies. You kinda have to budget 3-4 CP for re-rolls during the game. I may not always use red corsairs for CP, but I think you're always going to want a battalion of some sort with chaos knights.


Out of curiosity what do you tend to use re-rolls on with knights?


Inv saves, charges, and random shot numbers (if you're running battle cannons or thermo cannons). These are just more important for knights than other armies because re-rolling something for a 400+ point model is more important something that cost 160 or less.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 19:54:07


Post by: Mushkilla


Salt donkey wrote:

Inv saves, charges, and random shot numbers (if you're running battle cannons or thermo cannons). These are just more important for knights than other armies because re-rolling something for a 400+ point model is more important something that cost 160 or less.


I guess you would mitigate the random number of shots by taking fixed shot weapons and use gaze of fate for the rest (only works on your turn) so would cover wound damage and charge rolls (the things I tend to re-roll). So you would lose re-roll invulnerable saves which personally I only consider re-rolling if I've already rotate ion shields to make it a 4++. Seems manageable.

I'm not suggest this is game breaking or anything just a different take.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 21:17:06


Post by: Fan67


<delete>


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/17 21:54:06


Post by: Resin Glazed Guardsman


 small_gods wrote:
I think the valiant would do well in an infernal detachment because his bighest weakness is his lack of mobility. Plus when he's in range who doesn't want 3d6 str 8 -2ap 3 damage auto hits??

I think Iconoclast has some more reliable buffs but it makes most sense to stick them all in one detachment for CP.

If you were willing to swap out the double gat knight for two wardogs you could run both detachments and get the best out of each household.

Also you could make 2 dreadblades. I'd give the valliant the dreadblade or tzeentch relic for extra defense. With 3 decent pacts and a 5++ in combat he coild start to get difficult to shift.


Ahh yes I did mean the Castellan. The shooty version not the one with the harpoon canon.

I'm tempted to get a second rampager as well. Maybe have a Castellen with 2 rampagers, add some wardogs and whatever else I might be able to cram into a 2k list.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/18 08:15:47


Post by: small_gods


 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
I think the valiant would do well in an infernal detachment because his bighest weakness is his lack of mobility. Plus when he's in range who doesn't want 3d6 str 8 -2ap 3 damage auto hits??

I think Iconoclast has some more reliable buffs but it makes most sense to stick them all in one detachment for CP.

If you were willing to swap out the double gat knight for two wardogs you could run both detachments and get the best out of each household.

Also you could make 2 dreadblades. I'd give the valliant the dreadblade or tzeentch relic for extra defense. With 3 decent pacts and a 5++ in combat he coild start to get difficult to shift.


Ahh yes I did mean the Castellan. The shooty version not the one with the harpoon canon.

I'm tempted to get a second rampager as well. Maybe have a Castellen with 2 rampagers, add some wardogs and whatever else I might be able to cram into a 2k list.


Ah if I was taking a Castellan I'd just concentrate on making him as tough as possible. 4++ relic, 5+++ against psychic warlord trait, vow of dominance and the ignore -1ap dreadblade pact. Then you're going to be a pain to remove and can keep on shooting!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/18 21:42:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Just checked my Codex. Now I get why my points were out!

Stat bonus on a CC Despoiler are a stat tax.

Might be worth keeping an eye out for that on lists, as I suspect peeps could easily get it wrong. As I did.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/18 23:47:19


Post by: blackmage


played my list (previously posted) against a tau, maelstrom (disruptive singnals) search and destroy deploy. I got 1st turn
won 13-7, very close game where we both draw good cards, i managed to kill one of ions Tide 1st turn, he was set bit too much anti infantry, so had problems handle all those r6+ ta 2+/3+ multi wound targets, but good cards keept him into the match.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 10:52:40


Post by: Mushkilla


So I had a game yesterday against genesteler cult where I got to try diabolic rift combined with Daemonic possession. It did 5 wound to a patriarch and made it too risky for it to cast its second power (from its familiar). However, despite the damage it didn't really do much, it didn't prevent the power that mattered going off, not really worth 3CP. I still think it might have value against low wound/damage psykers or psychic units, or against an army that wants to cast a lot of powers at you (it definitely works better against psykers who want to cast multiple powers as they will take more damage). In hindsight, I'd probably not use Daemonic possession on the first attempted power against 5-6 wound psykers as you have very little chance of killing it, instead save the CP and use the threat of it to prevent them casting anymore powers with that psyker. You also get a bit of a paradox, where if you try to deny the power you prevent the perils...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 11:21:52


Post by: Dr. Mills


Thinking of running this as a experiment to see how viable twin melta cannons arms are, and relying on combat for the majority of the anti horde.


++ Super-Heavy Detachment +6CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [110 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: One model

Detachment CP [6CP]

+ Lord of War +

Knight Desecrator [23 PL, 422pts]: 3. Knight Diabolus, Character (Traitoris Lance), Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, The Diamonas, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 425pts]: Iconoclast Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Meltagun, Thermal cannon, Thermal cannon

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 417pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Thermal cannon, Thermal cannon, Twin Icarus Autocannon

Knight Rampager [19 PL, 387pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Reaper chainsword, The Gauntlet of Ascension, The Gauntlet of Ascension

War Dogs [18 PL, 348pts]
. War Dog: Iconoclast Household, Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
. War Dog: Iconoclast Household, Meltagun, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++

Have the war dogs and desacrator move together as a death star, the rampager is to YOLO into combat ASAP and the two despoilers to cover mid field to jump on objectives if needed and to anti everything with their guns.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 11:34:23


Post by: blackmage


no reasons to run double thermal cannons IK when you can run a double gatling with innfernal household and have a galing str7 d3 far more reliable and versatile than thermal cannon, and you alreday have 2 thermal spears, gatling is pretty more useful against anything.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 11:42:57


Post by: Azuza001


 blackmage wrote:
no reasons to run double thermal cannons IK when you can run a double gatling with innfernal household and have a galing str7 d3 far more reliable and versatile than thermal cannon.


Not exactly true, the double gattling costs more (almost 100 pts) and only one of those is str 7, the other is str 6.

Also if you are not running infernal thats not an option.


When I first opened the book i instantly went to infernal thinking it was the faction to be in (that and i like the idea of demonic knights) but after spending time with it iconoclass looks better to me. A double inferno with the beastslayer vow is going to be a serious threat to anything with armor. A double gattling with carnage is going to mulch hoard armies appart. And the vow of dominance is good on almost anything, like a cc knight running forwards.

Just my 2 cents.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 12:04:08


Post by: small_gods


I think mixing weapons is the way to go, just because you can run double gatling cannon or double thermal doesn't mean you should. I think thermal, stormspear, avenger gatling is the way to go.

If you only run double gatling and run into knights you're in trouble. If you run double thermal and run into orks then you're trouble. If you run both you yave a decent chance each way.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 12:09:36


Post by: blackmage


with d6 hits you have no chances at all, playtest guys dont just read and got to conclusions, thermal has same issue had before, and how many double thermal Ik's you seen in competitive?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 12:12:05


Post by: Azuza001


Thats another point to iconoclass. The double gattling vs knights with reroll failed wounds thanks to the vow will do work. A double thermal with carnage vow can still rack up the kills. And getting 3 additional attacks on the charge with ap-3 feet is pretty nice being able to pick your vows once you see your opponents list is very good tactically.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 12:16:05


Post by: small_gods


 blackmage wrote:
with d6 hits you have no chances at all, playtest guys dont just read and got to conclusions, thermal has same issue had before, and how many double thermal Ik's you seen in competitive?


I have play tested double agc, it's great until you run into triptide, knights, eldar flyers etc. I'd swap 12 str 6 shots for 3+d6 high strength shots. With the points increase on agc and decrease on thermal they're the same price.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 12:25:09


Post by: blackmage


i won yesterday against a triple riptide list with a double gatling IK, when Tau has 12+ shield drones good luck chew trough them with thermal cannons. Anyway each their own
Against Tau the problem is delete shield drones until it has drones hardly you put any damage on battlesuits.
PS: eldar flyers are chewed alive by gatling, hit on 3+ rerolling, no minus to hit and you wound at 3 with WoW you re roll 1's and deal 3 damage, you can rip apart 2 crimson hunters/hemlocks with 1 single gatling IK with average dice


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 13:05:24


Post by: Mushkilla


Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 13:10:03


Post by: blackmage


 Mushkilla wrote:
Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.

just said str 7 3 damage re rolling anything to hit and 1's to wound. is huge


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 13:31:57


Post by: Dr. Mills


 blackmage wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.

just said str 7 3 damage re rolling anything to hit and 1's to wound. is huge


While I agree it's strong, you have yet to put forward an argument against dual thermal cannons. With Iconoclast I can charge in and do 18 S8 -2AP 2D stomps to deal with hordes. With the fringe case of Riptides behind drones spam, what can the gatling cannons do better that the thermal cannons cannot, apart from not being swingy D6 shots and damage?

Don't get me wrong, dual gatling cannons are boss, but are they really worth the extra 90ish points for a pair if you aeent running a specific build?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 13:36:16


Post by: stormcraft


 blackmage wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Personally I run double avenger with stormspear. Daemonic power makes the avenger much more reliable against tanks and T6 eldar flyers.

just said str 7 3 damage re rolling anything to hit and 1's to wound. is huge


How do you get reroll 1s to wound on an infernal knight?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 13:52:56


Post by: small_gods


 blackmage wrote:
i won yesterday against a triple riptide list with a double gatling IK, when Tau has 12+ shield drones good luck chew trough them with thermal cannons. Anyway each their own
Against Tau the problem is delete shield drones until it has drones hardly you put any damage on battlesuits.
PS: eldar flyers are chewed alive by gatling, hit on 3+ rerolling, no minus to hit and you wound at 3 with WoW you re roll 1's and deal 3 damage, you can rip apart 2 crimson hunters/hemlocks with 1 single gatling IK with average dice


I don't understand what combo you're talking about? Infernal lets you boost up ONE weapon to str 7 3 . You can't reroll wounds with vow of the beastslayer on an infernal knight. And even if that were the case you definitely can't rip down 2 CHE a turn. That's much less likely than doing the same with dual termal and stormspear.

12 shots, 8/9 hit, 3+ to wound, 5++ invul. Around 14 wounds for the one boosted infernal agv. Around 5 wounds for the non boosted one.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 14:08:27


Post by: Freeflow44


Been reading through this thread with interest, some pretty experienced Knight pilots in this chat.

So I have a Death Guard army, and I've been invited to take part in a narrative campaign. I wanted to add something new to my Army to use in the narrative campaign. So I bought the new Chaos Knight...it's an awesome model. Can someone tell me of some tactics or synergies I can try with my Death Guard and the new Knight? I'm magnetizing him, so I can run him as a Desecrator or a Rampager

Thanks everyone


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 14:18:14


Post by: Azuza001


 Freeflow44 wrote:
Been reading through this thread with interest, some pretty experienced Knight pilots in this chat.

So I have a Death Guard army, and I've been invited to take part in a narrative campaign. I wanted to add something new to my Army to use in the narrative campaign. So I bought the new Chaos Knight...it's an awesome model. Can someone tell me of some tactics or synergies I can try with my Death Guard and the new Knight? I'm magnetizing him, so I can run him as a Desecrator or a Rampager

Thanks everyone


Sure! But first we need to know what else you have in your army.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 14:28:30


Post by: Freeflow44


It's a pretty big and fluffy Death Guard Army, I'm not a tournament player:
Dark Imperium (LOC, Malignant Plague Caster, etc.)
40 Pox walkers in total
15 Plague Marines
5 Blightlord Terminators
2 Plague Burst Crawlers
2 Foetid Bloat Drones with spitters
1 Myphitic Blight Hauler
1 Foul Blight Spawn
1 Biologus Putrifier
Typhus
Daemon Prince with Wings and 2 Malefic Talons

I'm teaming up with my buddy who also runs Death Guard, his army is very similar to mine, but he can also bring Nurglings, Plague Bearers, and a Great unclean one. Storyline is, the Death Guard are invading the planet Kaldova to create a new Garden for Nurgle. Our opponents are Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), they are Vostroyans and they will be bringing a Super Heavy Detachment (multiple Super Heavy tanks) and a ton of infantry. Our campaign starts with a couple games of Kill Team, moves into 40K matches and concludes with an Apocolypse battle.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 14:42:42


Post by: Mushkilla


 Dr. Mills wrote:

While I agree it's strong, you have yet to put forward an argument against dual thermal cannons. With Iconoclast I can charge in and do 18 S8 -2AP 2D stomps to deal with hordes. With the fringe case of Riptides behind drones spam, what can the gatling cannons do better that the thermal cannons cannot, apart from not being swingy D6 shots and damage?

Don't get me wrong, dual gatling cannons are boss, but are they really worth the extra 90ish points for a pair if you aeent running a specific build?


Let me start with; I think the dual thermal cannon are a nice cheap option that gives you a pretty solid anti tank option. So if you are running a knight specifically to perform that roll then great.

The reason I personally prefer the avengers, is that they perform well enough against most vehicles and flyers, they are less effective against T8 but if you take a storm spear a double avenger knight will still on average destroy a leman russ in a single round of shooting.

The big difference for me though, is melee with knights is not good anti horde. Why? Because if you don't have avengers you can't clear screens and if you can't clear screens then you are charging screens which means getting counter charged by things that knights don't want to be fighting second against. Knights are good in melee, but the lack of invulnerable save means that they can only really take on melee specialists if the knight gets the charge and can fight first.

Not only are avengers fantastic at clearing screens, they are also great at killing cheap scoring units. Again knights with their low model count really struggle against armies that have enough units to reliably swamp objectives.

This highlights another problem with relying on melee for clearing hordes/screens/scoring units is that it often leaves your knights in a less valuable board position. Knights as an army want to control the center of the table where they can use their speed and range to threaten a large amount of the board. Avengers allow you to clear units off objectives without sacrificing board position. Not to mention how hard it can be to actually get into melee with a knight on a board with reasonable terrain against infantry units who can move through walls. Or hide on the first floor of a ruin.

This is personally why I've been having more success with chaos knights than their imperial cousins. Dual avengers lets me play the mission much better. But that's just my take.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 14:43:37


Post by: small_gods


 Freeflow44 wrote:
It's a pretty big and fluffy Death Guard Army, I'm not a tournament player:
Dark Imperium (LOC, Malignant Plague Caster, etc.)
40 Pox walkers in total
15 Plague Marines
5 Blightlord Terminators
2 Plague Burst Crawlers
2 Foetid Bloat Drones with spitters
1 Myphitic Blight Hauler
1 Foul Blight Spawn
1 Biologus Putrifier
Typhus
Daemon Prince with Wings and 2 Malefic Talons

I'm teaming up with my buddy who also runs Death Guard, his army is very similar to mine, but he can also bring Nurglings, Plague Bearers, and a Great unclean one. Storyline is, the Death Guard are invading the planet Kaldova to create a new Garden for Nurgle. Our opponents are Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), they are Vostroyans and they will be bringing a Super Heavy Detachment (multiple Super Heavy tanks) and a ton of infantry. Our campaign starts with a couple games of Kill Team, moves into 40K matches and concludes with an Apocolypse battle.


Sounds fun!

If they're bringing a ton of superheavies you'll want to use an iconoclast rampager. You can give him Vow of Dominance pregame so all those volcano lances are only wounding on 4+. If you make him a dreadblade you can also give him the pact that rerolls all hits vs. Titanic and Characters to save some CP.

If you have any wardogs (armigers) that would make it more useful again because you can get the iconoclast trait with a full super heavy detachment which gives you more attacks (so at least 18 stomps hitting on 2+) and might make them loose a model or two more to morale.

Finally you can't go wrong with extra relics and warlord traits. More likely +1 attack and the slanesh relic (for a bit of extra movement) would be useful


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 14:48:17


Post by: Dr. Mills


 Mushkilla wrote:
 Dr. Mills wrote:

While I agree it's strong, you have yet to put forward an argument against dual thermal cannons. With Iconoclast I can charge in and do 18 S8 -2AP 2D stomps to deal with hordes. With the fringe case of Riptides behind drones spam, what can the gatling cannons do better that the thermal cannons cannot, apart from not being swingy D6 shots and damage?

Don't get me wrong, dual gatling cannons are boss, but are they really worth the extra 90ish points for a pair if you aeent running a specific build?


Let me start with; I think the dual thermal cannon are a nice cheap option that gives you a pretty solid anti tank option. So if you are running a knight specifically to perform that roll then great.

The reason I personally prefer the avengers, is that they perform well enough against most vehicles and flyers, they are less effective against T8 but if you take a storm spear a double avenger knight will still on average destroy a leman russ in a single round of shooting.

The big difference for me though, is melee with knights is not good anti horde. Why? Because if you don't have avengers you can't clear screens and if you can't clear screens then you are charging screens which means getting counter charged by things that knights don't want to be fighting second against. Knights are good in melee, but the lack of invulnerable save means that they can only really take on melee specialists if the knight gets the charge and can fight first.

Not only are avengers fantastic at clearing screens, they are also great at killing cheap scoring units. Again knights with their low model count really struggle against armies that have enough units to reliably swamp objectives.

This highlights another problem with relying on melee for clearing hordes/screens/scoring units is that it often leaves your knights in a less valuable board position. Knights as an army want to control the center of the table where they can use their speed and range to threaten a large amount of the board. Avengers allow you to clear units off objectives without sacrificing board position. Not to mention how hard it can be to actually get into melee with a knight on a board with reasonable terrain against infantry units who can move through walls. Or hide on the first floor of a ruin.

This personally why I've been having more success with chaos knights than their imperial cousins. Dual avengers lets me play the mission much better. But that's just my take.


Never thought of it that way, I'll have to keep that info in mind if I'm up against an army that screens well or has dedicated anti armour melee


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 15:02:23


Post by: Freeflow44



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 small_gods wrote:
 Freeflow44 wrote:
It's a pretty big and fluffy Death Guard Army, I'm not a tournament player:
Dark Imperium (LOC, Malignant Plague Caster, etc.)
40 Pox walkers in total
15 Plague Marines
5 Blightlord Terminators
2 Plague Burst Crawlers
2 Foetid Bloat Drones with spitters
1 Myphitic Blight Hauler
1 Foul Blight Spawn
1 Biologus Putrifier
Typhus
Daemon Prince with Wings and 2 Malefic Talons

I'm teaming up with my buddy who also runs Death Guard, his army is very similar to mine, but he can also bring Nurglings, Plague Bearers, and a Great unclean one. Storyline is, the Death Guard are invading the planet Kaldova to create a new Garden for Nurgle. Our opponents are Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), they are Vostroyans and they will be bringing a Super Heavy Detachment (multiple Super Heavy tanks) and a ton of infantry. Our campaign starts with a couple games of Kill Team, moves into 40K matches and concludes with an Apocolypse battle.


Sounds fun!

If they're bringing a ton of superheavies you'll want to use an iconoclast rampager. You can give him Vow of Dominance pregame so all those volcano lances are only wounding on 4+. If you make him a dreadblade you can also give him the pact that rerolls all hits vs. Titanic and Characters to save some CP.

If you have any wardogs (armigers) that would make it more useful again because you can get the iconoclast trait with a full super heavy detachment which gives you more attacks (so at least 18 stomps hitting on 2+) and might make them loose a model or two more to morale.

Finally you can't go wrong with extra relics and warlord traits. More likely +1 attack and the slanesh relic (for a bit of extra movement) would be useful


Thanks for the advice! Currently, I use my Poxwalkers as screening units to tie up vehicles while I close the gap with the PBC and Bloat drones, then I melt everything with Spitters. You think the same could work for the Knight? Poxwalkers, Nurglings and Plague Bearers screening and tieing up tanks until the Rampager can get in range and start charging the tanks? I'm not really worried about the Vostroyan Infantry, the Death Guard are very good at killing inexpensive troops


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 15:27:34


Post by: Mushkilla


 Dr. Mills wrote:

Never thought of it that way, I'll have to keep that info in mind if I'm up against an army that screens well or has dedicated anti armour melee


To be fair my meta is infantry heavy, even the triple tide lists will run 40+ fire warriors.

It also applies to anti armour units that are infantry based: bladed cog neophytes with mining lasers, hellblasters, Ork lootas. These sort of units can hide behind screens of infantry and if you really on melee for your anti infantry you will struggle to engage them before they take you out, not to mention you have to close in on them rather than outranging them (matters more against short range anti tank). Getting close to things can be a very risky tactical proposition for knights.

I forgot to mention the two heavy flamers. These are great for clearing even more infantry but also for finishing off those units that have been whittled down to a single model. You don't necessarily want to waste an avenger or your charge on a single marine, but if you don't kill him he can still score/deny you an objective (thanks to objective secure and our lack of objective secure). The two heavy flamers are great for reliably finishing off these sorts of units.

Finally, the twin avengers with flamers make your over watch a lot more intimidating. You can easily kill a character charging you, or glass cannon melee units. Even against the stronger melee threats it tends to at least do some damage and as a result reduce the damage you will take from the charging unit. This goes back to knights being good in melee on the charge and vulnerable when charged.

There's an old 40k quote that says:

Despise infantry if you must. Crush them underfoot, by all means. But do not ignore them. Battlefields are littered with the wreckage of Titans whose crews ignored infantry.



Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 16:36:03


Post by: blackmage


if you build a list for tournament you cant tailor it for a specific opponent, often i think many people here never go to tournaments so they take for granted what they will face, in that case if you know you are going against Ik's for example , of course double thermal+stormspear can be the right choice, but if you attend to tournament and you face 3 hordes (last tournaments i faced 120 orks and about 120 tyr models and about 50 FW+34 drones)? What you do with your thermals? 4/5 orks dead/turn and the other 120? or worse if you face 90/120 plaguebearers? I know ITC meta is different but thank God the rest of the world play GW missions so you must consider it.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 16:48:45


Post by: odog00138


Would the relic that lets you ignore all hit modifiers ignore the defiant machine spirit damnation of minus 1 to hit?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 16:55:24


Post by: Mushkilla


odog00138 wrote:
Would the relic that lets you ignore all hit modifiers ignore the defiant machine spirit damnation of minus 1 to hit?


Nice catch. It would indeed ignore the -1 to hit for ranged to hit rolls (the relic only affects ranged weapons).


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 17:16:09


Post by: BoomWolf


...
That could NOT be intended XD

The issue though comes back the the fact that it eats away in the super valuable relic department. they are too good to give up.

And as always, I just can't seem to give up the melee ability for dual-wielding. feet are not enough when the enemy throws his own knights on you. and so much of the chaos knight rules are geared towards getting into melee or making melee deadlier.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 17:37:32


Post by: Mushkilla


 BoomWolf wrote:
...
And as always, I just can't seem to give up the melee ability for dual-wielding. feet are not enough when the enemy throws his own knights on you. and so much of the chaos knight rules are geared towards getting into melee or making melee deadlier.


With summoning it's easy to move block melee. Just summon 10 brimstones for 30pts. The biggest downside of summoning is not being able to move (again one of the reasons I like double range weapon knights).

For me the combination of our relics/warlord traits/vows/dreadblade pacts/summoning makes this army such a toolbox. Which pushes me to our most generalist despoiler build (twin avenger), as I get the rest of the flexibility from our toolbox. Having points left for summoning is a really important part of that.

As for our codex making melee deadlier, sure there are some pretty strong melee options in our codex. But they boost our shooting knights just as much as our melee knights (all knights are melee knights in my eyes).

Again just my take on things. Not suggesting melee/hybrid knights are terrible or anything.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 17:52:14


Post by: small_gods


 blackmage wrote:
if you build a list for tournament you cant tailor it for a specific opponent, often i think many people here never go to tournaments so they take for granted what they will face, in that case if you know you are going against Ik's for example , of course double thermal+stormspear can be the right choice, but if you attend to tournament and you face 3 hordes (last tournaments i faced 120 orks and about 120 tyr models and about 50 FW+34 drones)? What you do with your thermals? 4/5 orks dead/turn and the other 120? or worse if you face 90/120 plaguebearers? I know ITC meta is different but thank God the rest of the world play GW missions so you must consider it.


Last tournament I went to, a couple of weeks ago, I played 60 plaguebearers and 50 tazangors, 3 Daredeos, 3 heldrakes and 3 lord discordants and a tau triptide list with 30 fw and 5 broadsides. If I'd taken double avengers I'd have been only efficient in the first match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Freeflow44 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 small_gods wrote:
 Freeflow44 wrote:
It's a pretty big and fluffy Death Guard Army, I'm not a tournament player:
Dark Imperium (LOC, Malignant Plague Caster, etc.)
40 Pox walkers in total
15 Plague Marines
5 Blightlord Terminators
2 Plague Burst Crawlers
2 Foetid Bloat Drones with spitters
1 Myphitic Blight Hauler
1 Foul Blight Spawn
1 Biologus Putrifier
Typhus
Daemon Prince with Wings and 2 Malefic Talons

I'm teaming up with my buddy who also runs Death Guard, his army is very similar to mine, but he can also bring Nurglings, Plague Bearers, and a Great unclean one. Storyline is, the Death Guard are invading the planet Kaldova to create a new Garden for Nurgle. Our opponents are Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard), they are Vostroyans and they will be bringing a Super Heavy Detachment (multiple Super Heavy tanks) and a ton of infantry. Our campaign starts with a couple games of Kill Team, moves into 40K matches and concludes with an Apocolypse battle.


Sounds fun!

If they're bringing a ton of superheavies you'll want to use an iconoclast rampager. You can give him Vow of Dominance pregame so all those volcano lances are only wounding on 4+. If you make him a dreadblade you can also give him the pact that rerolls all hits vs. Titanic and Characters to save some CP.

If you have any wardogs (armigers) that would make it more useful again because you can get the iconoclast trait with a full super heavy detachment which gives you more attacks (so at least 18 stomps hitting on 2+) and might make them loose a model or two more to morale.

Finally you can't go wrong with extra relics and warlord traits. More likely +1 attack and the slanesh relic (for a bit of extra movement) would be useful


Thanks for the advice! Currently, I use my Poxwalkers as screening units to tie up vehicles while I close the gap with the PBC and Bloat drones, then I melt everything with Spitters. You think the same could work for the Knight? Poxwalkers, Nurglings and Plague Bearers screening and tieing up tanks until the Rampager can get in range and start charging the tanks? I'm not really worried about the Vostroyan Infantry, the Death Guard are very good at killing inexpensive troops


You should be able to get him into combat pretty quickly anyway, with full tilt and deploying on the line you'll be moving, advancing and charging an adverage of 24.5 inches so depending on deployment you could get a first turn charge. If you can keep the rampager alive he'll make mincemeat of AM tanks!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 18:04:46


Post by: BoomWolf


I dont see how a bunch of brimestones are going to stop a knight from getting to you.
If his list don't have the tools to take out such a flimsy warp, he is not a problem to begin with.

And really, you can't compare the ranged boosts to the melee ones.
Both households boost melee, either damage output of reaching it.
The dreadblade pacts are either melee, or non-spesific.
The stratagems are mostly melee oriented.
Most relics are melee, and the few that are ranged are either bad (the one that improves AP by 1 on 6s to wound), situational (ignore modifiers) or highly spesific (relic laser destructor) the 4++ against shooting is also arguably better shooty, but its on the pure CC household.


Basically, shooting knights got a tiny bit better with the codex, melee and hybrid knight got a WHOLE lot better.
The fact gatas got more expensive as well also hinders their edge a bit.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 18:15:49


Post by: Mushkilla


 small_gods wrote:

Last tournament I went to, a couple of weeks ago, I played 60 plaguebearers and 50 tazangors, 3 Daredeos, 3 heldrakes and 3 lord discordants and a tau triptide list with 30 fw and 5 broadsides. If I'd taken double avengers I'd have been only efficient in the first match.


I'm not sure I follow. The biggest problem in my experience of that tau match up is the fire warriors and drones. The fire warrior are deadly against knights once they trigger focus fire. The next is the drones preventing you from damaging the riptides. So clearing those out is a priority and double avengers doubles the speed at which you can clear them out.

I take it you were relying on death hex to strip the riptides 3+ invulnerable saves? Cause otherwise those thermal cannons aren't going to be the most reliable even once you clear out the drones.

Tau don't have psychic defence so pre codex I just summon a poxbringer with the -1 toughness power. It makes avengers brutally effective against riptides, you don't even need to use death hex at that point. These days that isn't even necessary as Daemonic power on an avenger is more than enough to chew though a riptide once it's drones are down.

But that's just my experience.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 18:22:05


Post by: dreadblade


I've just moved my 1000 point list over from Index: Renegade Knights to Codex: Chaos Knights:

++ Super-Heavy Detachment (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [54 PL, 3CP, 992pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

+ Lord of War +

War Dogs [18 PL, 324pts]
. War Dog: 4. Warp-haunted Hull, Character (Traitoris Lance), Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver, Tzeentchian Pyrothrone, Warlord
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

War Dogs [18 PL, 334pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Two War Dog autocannons

War Dogs [18 PL, 334pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Two War Dog autocannons

++ Total: [54 PL, 3CP, 992pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 18:55:50


Post by: small_gods


I took Ahriman, Magnus and two TS daemon princes so I had death hex fairly well covered

But I'm not sold on summoning with knights, even if you summon just the right thing for the situation you've stood still and missed out on your 400+ points knight getting into mele.

They're generally better in combat than at shooting but at their best when doing both. If you're summoning you should use a 70 point daemon or csm hq so you've not traded too much for the flexibility.

As for fire warriors and drones, the best way to deal with them is shoot, charge and stamp 15+ times, fall back and repeat.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 18:56:37


Post by: blackmage


every competitive army has a way to screen valuable targets, i always laugh when i read "i charged with my xyz model 1st turn those AM tanks" only if you play with a brainless opponent that can happen, you need ALWAYS a way to deal with screens, is not like 5ht edition.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 20:26:41


Post by: Mushkilla


 BoomWolf wrote:
I dont see how a bunch of brimestones are going to stop a knight from getting to you.
If his list don't have the tools to take out such a flimsy warp, he is not a problem to begin with.


If you summon a screen of horrors in front of knight you limit its movement towards you to 8" in the movement phase (summoned unit needs to be 9" away, and you can't move within 1" of an enemy unit). The shooting phase happens after the movement phase, your opponent couldn't shoot the horrors earlier in the game because they didn't exist. So the fact that your opponent can kill the horrors in his shooting phase doesn't really matter, as they have already done what they needed to disrupt their movement phase. Another trick is to summon a beast of Nurgle for 34pts, it easy to summon (power level 2) and has a large base so its perfect form putting between two pieces of terrain and blocking the path of a melee knight.

The aim is to reduce the movement of the enemy knight in its movement phase not its assault phase. If you want to do that you are better off summoning blue/pink horrors and split them or plague bearers, but both of those option cost more point and are dependent on your opponent not being able to clear the screen in his shooting phase.

 BoomWolf wrote:

And really, you can't compare the ranged boosts to the melee ones.
Both households boost melee, either damage output of reaching it.
The dreadblade pacts are either melee, or non-spesific.
The stratagems are mostly melee oriented.
Most relics are melee, and the few that are ranged are either bad (the one that improves AP by 1 on 6s to wound), situational (ignore modifiers) or highly spesific (relic laser destructor) the 4++ against shooting is also arguably better shooty, but its on the pure CC household.


Basically, shooting knights got a tiny bit better with the codex, melee and hybrid knight got a WHOLE lot better.
The fact gatas got more expensive as well also hinders their edge a bit.


I don't see how a shooting knight is any different from a hybrid knight in your examples? They both have titanic feet and both benefit from all of those melee bonuses. That's part of my point shooting knights are melee knights. Just because you have two ranged weapons doesn't mean you hang back and shoot with your knight, it means you have the flexibility to do so if you need to. Most of the time my double ranged weapons knights are shooting and charging as much as they can, so they benefit just as much from boosts to melee as a hybrid knight. The only difference between the two is the chainsword/gauntlet, which only come into play against very specific targets (other knights mostly) outside of those specific targets hybrid knights and shooting knights benefit the same. Generally, if it doesn't make sense for a melee/hybrid knight to charge a unit then it doesn't make sense for a shooting knight to charge a unit, the key difference is that the shooting knight has more options in that situation.

Again I'm not saying hybrid knights don't have a place in chaos knight lists. I'm saying that shooting knights benefit just as much from the majority of the Chaos Knight Codex melee buffs because against most targets they have the exact same profile and weapon profile as a hybrid knight.

 small_gods wrote:
But I'm not sold on summoning with knights, even if you summon just the right thing for the situation you've stood still and missed out on your 400+ points knight getting into mele.


Summoning doesn't always stop you from charging, If you are holding a key objective with a knight your opponent often has to send troops to contest.

I find the argument about not being able to do something with a 400+ model a bit misleading. If I'm standing still to summon with a 400+ knight it means I've decided that summoning is more likely to help me win the game than charging into melee. If I'm performing the action that is most likely to win me the game then it doesn't matter how many points the knight costs, or that the opportunity cost is that he's not in melee.

 small_gods wrote:
They're generally better in combat than at shooting but at their best when doing both. If you're summoning you should use a 70 point daemon or csm hq so you've not traded too much for the flexibility.


I completly agree. I run a chaos daemon battalion with my knights, and often it's the characters from that battalion that will do the summoning. However, having more characters that can summon espeically large hard to kill models that tend to hold favourable positions on the board, just gives me more options. There's also an element of knights being undivided so they can summon form the entire pantheon, unlike daemon characters which are limited to summoning units from their allegiance. Sometimes the best unit to summon with is a knight. I've had games where summoning some flamers turn 5-6 to kill a unit so that I can target the characters behind with my last remaining knight was the winning move. It's about options, and in my experience summoning gives me those options. That being said all my chaos armies this edition have had an element of summoning, so I'm a bit biased.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/19 20:53:46


Post by: blackmage


summon is very tactical and many dont completely understand it's value is a strong tool in capable hands. Do you run 3 Ik's?
I tried this
Spoiler:


++ Super-Heavy Detachment +6CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [69 PL, -1CP, 1,374pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: one model

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 501pts]: 1. Forsaken, 1. Infernal Quest, 3. Volatile Reactor, 5. Galvanised Hull, Character (Traitoris Lance), Corrupted Heirloom, Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Helm of Warpsight, Infernal Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 486pts]: Heavy stubber, Infernal Household, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thermal cannon
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

Knight Rampager [19 PL, 387pts]: Corrupted Heirloom, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, The Teeth That Hunger, The Teeth That Hunger, Thunderstrike gauntlet

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [25 PL, 456pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle

+ HQ +

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Miasma of Pestilence

Sloppity Bilepiper [3 PL, 60pts]

+ Troops +

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Plaguebearers [12 PL, 218pts]: Daemonic Icon, 28x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden

++ Total: [94 PL, -1CP, 1,830pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
with 170pts for summoning


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 02:22:12


Post by: COLD CASH


Clearing screens isnt a problem if your running 3 deredeo's, which is why in that list my shooty is a double thermal. A despoiler melee and a wardog autoC.

With that combo you have all your bases covered.

Strong melee, good tank slayer, anti horde and anti flyer.

Rounded out with nurglings for quick and cheap scoring from the 1st turn.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 17:07:09


Post by: Nightlord1987


What are some good cheap screening units available that can keep up with a mobile melee knight to prevent deepstrike and alphas?.

Cultists and Nurglings are too slow. Plague drones are too expensive.

I'm thinking Spawn? Maybe Furies? (one we get those new models)


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 17:25:01


Post by: Broly33


Did anybody playtest the desecrator and dual RFBC despoilers?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 18:00:56


Post by: small_gods


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
What are some good cheap screening units available that can keep up with a mobile melee knight to prevent deepstrike and alphas?.

Cultists and Nurglings are too slow. Plague drones are too expensive.

I'm thinking Spawn? Maybe Furies? (one we get those new models)


Bikes are relatively cheap, fast, have long bases so you can block well and good at clearing screen! Am thinking of squeezing some in to my knights and cosairs.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 19:24:49


Post by: Nightlord1987


Bikes would have been a great suggestion! I truly regret selling off my Bike army at the start of 8th edition, when SM Biker Troops got dropped.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 19:31:21


Post by: MinMax


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
What are some good cheap screening units available that can keep up with a mobile melee knight to prevent deepstrike and alphas?.

Cultists and Nurglings are too slow. Plague drones are too expensive.

I'm thinking Spawn? Maybe Furies? (one we get those new models)


Seekers? 15 points/model, with a 14" move.

A large unit of Alpha Legion cultists can be moved up to 15+d6" by the end of the your first turn. More if you use Warptime.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 19:39:48


Post by: blackmage


Broly33 wrote:
Did anybody playtest the desecrator and dual RFBC despoilers?

i think better configuration is gatling+rfbc and infernal household, so depending by match you improve one of your weapons damage and strenght, rfbv str 9 and d3+1 damage can be nice if you face mechanized lists, gatling keep hordes at bay.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 21:44:07


Post by: small_gods


Broly33 wrote:
Did anybody playtest the desecrator and dual RFBC despoilers?


Not tried them but I think you're paying a premium for it's 72" range for a d3 damage weapon. Thermal and avenger gatling are both better choices imo, one has more many more shots and the other has similar or better damage for 40 less points.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/20 23:13:23


Post by: Tooooon


Not a clue what kinda list to make, or what extra bits to buy and need your help Currently own:

30 Cultists
1 Knight w 2 Gatling Cannons
2 Wardogs
2 Venomcrawlers
1 Arch Discordant

Gonna defo nab a Rampager, just not sure what else I may need to round out a list...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/21 00:26:52


Post by: Latro_


anyone rocked the guantlet relic yet?

on an iconoclast with +1 attack WL on the charge vs an enemy knight you have 7 attacks hittin on 2's with a reroll, wounding on 2's with a re-roll -5 (so no save) and 6dmg each

thats about what an average of what 40 wounds?!? guess ye opponenet is not letting him get into HTH

edit: hmm might be 6 attacks because 'technically' you dont have a normal guantlet anymore for the +1 attack, but i expect that will be faq'd in favour of the +1


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/21 12:13:13


Post by: daismith906


So everyone’s thoughts for best build of the Castellan tyrant?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/21 13:32:57


Post by: Resin Glazed Guardsman


Quick question with the psyker relic, are you able to choose a psyker power or does it just allow it to use smite and deny a power?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/21 14:05:24


Post by: dreadblade


 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Quick question with the psyker relic, are you able to choose a psyker power or does it just allow it to use smite and deny a power?

Yes, the Tzeentchian Pyrothrone artefact gives you smite and deny. Add the Warp-Haunted Hull warlord trait for a second deny


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/22 09:49:33


Post by: Latro_


Anyone this list has any legs to it?

2k

Super Heavy Detachment <Iconoclast>
Despoiler (2x Avenger Gatling, 2x Heavy Flamers, Heavy Stubber) 485 <-- prob takes the vow of carnage
Despoiler (2x Rapid Battle Cannnons, 3x Heavy Stubbers) 471
Despoiler (Chainsword, Gauntlet) 370 <-- takes big gauntlet, is WL with whatever trait

Spearhead <purge>
Warpsmith (Meltagun, Flamer, Combi-Melta, Power Axe, Mechtendrils) 75
Deredeo Dreanought (Butcher, Greater Havoc, Twin Heavy Bolters) 198
Deredeo Dreanought (Butcher, Greater Havoc, Twin Heavy Bolters) 198
Deredeo Dreanought (Butcher, Greater Havoc, Twin Heavy Bolters) 198

knights hurt stuff and because purge the deredeos get some re-rolls to hit.
clears hordes, can take on armour, can take on flyers, can do CC and is fairly resilient.



Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/22 11:02:01


Post by: Mushkilla


So another find from some more games. Some of you might have noticed the new wording of Trail of destruction means it can now be used during overwatch.

At first I dissmised this, thinking it would be a waste of CP. But it almost doubles the damage of your overwatch going from 16.6% hits to 30% hits. With double avengers this means going from 4 to 8 hits. When combined with double heavy flamers, stubber and a carapace weapon this can be quite potent. Also if you've use Daemonic power then it still applies.

The best part though is that it applies for the whole phase. So if the charging unit fails the charge or gets destroyed by overwatch. Then any subsequent overwatch fired by that knight for the rest of the phase gets re-rolls to hit. I find knights most vulnerable when getting charged, having decent overwatch can really help mitigate this. It can make a big difference against the more dangerous assault units in the game like smash captain , Daemon princes etc (as long as they can't ignore overwatch).

Interestingly the path to glory pact that allows re-rolls to hit against characters also works on overwatch. Could be pretty brutal against a charging knight if your own knight has twin thermal cannons.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/22 21:23:47


Post by: small_gods


 Mushkilla wrote:
So another find from some more games. Some of you might have noticed the new wording of Trail of destruction means it can now be used during overwatch.

At first I dissmised this, thinking it would be a waste of CP. But it almost doubles the damage of your overwatch going from 16.6% hits to 30% hits. With double avengers this means going from 4 to 8 hits. When combined with double heavy flamers, stubber and a carapace weapon this can be quite potent. Also if you've use Daemonic power then it still applies.

The best part though is that it applies for the whole phase. So if the charging unit fails the charge or gets destroyed by overwatch. Then any subsequent overwatch fired by that knight for the rest of the phase gets re-rolls to hit. I find knights most vulnerable when getting charged, having decent overwatch can really help mitigate this. It can make a big difference against the more dangerous assault units in the game like smash captain , Daemon princes etc (as long as they can't ignore overwatch).

Interestingly the path to glory pact that allows re-rolls to hit against characters also works on overwatch. Could be pretty brutal against a charging knight if your own knight has twin thermal cannons.


Good find, I don't think it will get used much but I think if you could catch an opponent off guard with it. Especially if they try to tie up your knight for their mele damage units to charge in without overwatch. Like using a rhino to eat overwatch for your skullreaver daemon prince.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 05:28:02


Post by: Pakman184


What are everyone's opinions on dual Thermal Cannon Despoiler?

I'm a little torn on whether or not they might be competitively viable. On one hand they're stupidly cheap for their firepower, coming out to only 20 points more than the "Gallant" version of the Despoiler, but on the other hand they're nearly 400 points for an average of 7 slightly improved Lascannon shots + the Knight chassis.

Considering the dual Avenger Gatling Despoiler is almost 100 points more than it, my instincts say it could see some use in a triple Knight army but I'm not entirely sure.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 06:12:54


Post by: dreadblade


I'm taking one of each on my Despoiler...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 07:22:35


Post by: small_gods


Pakman184 wrote:
What are everyone's opinions on dual Thermal Cannon Despoiler?

I'm a little torn on whether or not they might be competitively viable. On one hand they're stupidly cheap for their firepower, coming out to only 20 points more than the "Gallant" version of the Despoiler, but on the other hand they're nearly 400 points for an average of 7 slightly improved Lascannon shots + the Knight chassis.

Considering the dual Avenger Gatling Despoiler is almost 100 points more than it, my instincts say it could see some use in a triple Knight army but I'm not entirely sure.


I really think mixed weapons is the way to go. Think of it this way. If I play orks and see a dual agc and dial thermal. I kill the agc first and laugh as the big stompy dual thermal knight kills 4 boyz a turn.

If I'm playing knights I kill the dual thermal and it then takes the dual agc knight 5 turns to kill me back.

If they're mixed it doesn't matter nearly as much when you loose one knight as you still have some of the weapons you need to do the job.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 09:01:59


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Personally, I would go double Thermal cannon over a melee knight for Chaos knights because the melee chaos knight and rampager seems to be more expensive. For just a bit more, you get double thermal cannons, and in most melee situations, you are likely to be using stompy feet anyway.

There are lots of ways to get +1 attack, and strategems for reroll to hit would probably be just as good as WS2+. (in the situations where its that crucial).


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 13:10:46


Post by: Mushkilla


 small_gods wrote:

I really think mixed weapons is the way to go. Think of it this way. If I play orks and see a dual agc and dial thermal. I kill the agc first and laugh as the big stompy dual thermal knight kills 4 boyz a turn.


There are pros and cons to both. Having the same weapon on the same knight makes them more effective for things like stratagems, relics and pacts. For example putting the helm of warp-sight on a dual avenger knight, or taking path to glory on a dual thermal cannon knight, or vow of carnage which is best on a double avenger knight (etc). Having specialised knights also leads to more interesting target priority considerations for your opponent. Maybe he really wants to kill that double avenger knight but the thermal knight is closer etc. Similar to how gallants are often not the most important target but they are the most immediate threat.

 small_gods wrote:
If I'm playing knights I kill the dual thermal and it then takes the dual agc knight 5 turns to kill me back.


5 turns? Point differences aside (avenger being 44 points more) there isn't that much difference in damage when comparing a thermal cannon to an avenger (against a knight).

Thermal cannon: 3.5 shots, 2.33 wounds, 1.55 unsaved wounds (5++), 5.4 damage (6.92 in melta range).
Avenger: 12 shots, 4 wounds, 2.66 unsaved wounds (5++), 5.3 damage.

So the thermal cannon is only really superior in melta range. For me it's not superior enough that I feel the need to bring it (outside of it points limitation, I.e if I can't fit the second avenger then the thermal cannon is a perfectly reasonable option). I find that daemonic power avengers especially when combined with shrivelling pox -1 toughness, and stormspear rockets give me enough anti knight.

Even when you assume both knights are infernal and the target knight has shrivelling pox etc. Then the difference in damage between a knight with two avengers and a knight with one avenger and a thermals cannon is 0.1 damage outside of melta range and 1.63 damage inside melta range. So this notion that a thermal cannon and single avenger knights are vastly superior at killing knights than a double avenger knights seems a bit exaggerated to me.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Personally, I would go double Thermal cannon over a melee knight for Chaos knights because the melee chaos knight and rampager seems to be more expensive. For just a bit more, you get double thermal cannons, and in most melee situations, you are likely to be using stompy feet anyway.

There are lots of ways to get +1 attack, and strategems for reroll to hit would probably be just as good as WS2+. (in the situations where its that crucial).


Yeah that's where dual thermal cannon becomes interesting, as an alternative to gallants. The increase in cost of the gallant now means that the Errant is the same price (372) making him another option for a cheap knight.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 14:00:20


Post by: small_gods


It's mainly a points consideration that thermal allows you to buy a stormspear for (virtually) the same points of one agc. And 45 points is a lot per weapon. If you're running 3 dual agc knights that's 270 points that's a daemon battalion with 9 nurglings and 2 bloodmasters. So 5cp, so useful utility and 44 wounds.

Not to say thermal is the best weapon in the game by any stretch and agc definately benifits from infernal trait more. But one agc benifits as much as two.

The inly argument I can see is for vow of carnage.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 14:18:57


Post by: Eldenfirefly


err, I think you should compare a double Thermal cannon despoiler to the cost of a rampager or a melee despoiler. The difference is really not that much.

Assuming no carapace weapons at all (because they all cost the same).

A Rampager costs 387 points.
A Despoiler with guantlet and chainsword costs 372 points.
A Despoiler with double Thermal cannon cost 397 points.

So the difference between a double thermal loadout vs guantlet and chainsword loadout is just 25 points. But for that 25 more points, you are getting two thermal cannons. I honestly can't see any other way an increase in 25 points is going to get you an extra 2d6 Str 9 d6 damage shots.

For 75 more points, your triple melee despoiler suddenly now become triple thermal despoilers. The increase in ranged firepower for just an increase is 75 points is amazing. Of course, you could argue for battle cannon and avenger loadouts too, but those are obviously a lot more expensive.

I am just saying that in most situations, for just 25 more points, a double thermal cannon despoiler will be better than a melee despoiler. And its still under 400 points.



Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 14:34:32


Post by: Mushkilla


 small_gods wrote:
It's mainly a points consideration that thermal allows you to buy a stormspear for (virtually) the same points of one agc. And 45 points is a lot per weapon. If you're running 3 dual agc knights that's 270 points that's a daemon battalion with 9 nurglings and 2 bloodmasters. So 5cp, so useful utility and 44 wounds.

Not to say thermal is the best weapon in the game by any stretch and agc definately benifits from infernal trait more. But one agc benifits as much as two.

The inly argument I can see is for vow of carnage.


Not sure where you are getting 270 points from, in your example you are running three knights with thermal cannon, avenger and stormspear right? 3 double avenger storm spear knights are 132pts more expensive (44 points X 3) not 270...

I agree depending on your list those 132pts might be better spent elsewhere. I agree that infernal doesn't benefit two avengers more than a single avenger other than giving you enough of a boost against vehicles that taking a thermal cannon is less necessary.

My experience with imperial knights running three crusaders in the configuration you described is that I really struggled against infantry heavy lists. That's really the crux of my argument. Dual avengers means I don't struggle against those lists whilst at the same time it's effective enough against armoured targets that I find I don't struggle against lists with lots of tough targets. I haven't found anything better to spend those 132pts on to do this.

The other thing for me is variance. The thermal cannon is a high variance weapon making it unreliable. This is very noticeable when targeting things with only 2-3wounds left. I'd never fire a single thermal cannon into a target with 2 wounds left that I had to kill. But I would fire a single avenger. The avenger is more consistent and as a result lets you split fire more efficiently. On the other hand you can get lucky with the thermal cannon and completely swing a game. The downside of the avenger is you are less likely to get those extreme swings. Again it depends what you want consistency or variance. There isn't a right answer.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 15:40:57


Post by: small_gods


 Mushkilla wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
It's mainly a points consideration that thermal allows you to buy a stormspear for (virtually) the same points of one agc. And 45 points is a lot per weapon. If you're running 3 dual agc knights that's 270 points that's a daemon battalion with 9 nurglings and 2 bloodmasters. So 5cp, so useful utility and 44 wounds.

Not to say thermal is the best weapon in the game by any stretch and agc definately benifits from infernal trait more. But one agc benifits as much as two.

The inly argument I can see is for vow of carnage.


Not sure where you are getting 270 points from, in your example you are running three knights with thermal cannon, avenger and stormspear right? 3 double avenger storm spear knights are 132pts more expensive (44 points X 3) not 270...

I agree depending on your list those 132pts might be better spent elsewhere. I agree that infernal doesn't benefit two avengers more than a single avenger other than giving you enough of a boost against vehicles that taking a thermal cannon is less necessary.

My experience with imperial knights running three crusaders in the configuration you described is that I really struggled against infantry heavy lists. That's really the crux of my argument. Dual avengers means I don't struggle against those lists whilst at the same time it's effective enough against armoured targets that I find I don't struggle against lists with lots of tough targets. I haven't found anything better to spend those 132pts on to do this.

The other thing for me is variance. The thermal cannon is a high variance weapon making it unreliable. This is very noticeable when targeting things with only 2-3wounds left. I'd never fire a single thermal cannon into a target with 2 wounds left that I had to kill. But I would fire a single avenger. The avenger is more consistent and as a result lets you split fire more efficiently. On the other hand you can get lucky with the thermal cannon and completely swing a game. The downside of the avenger is you are less likely to get those extreme swings. Again it depends what you want consistency or variance. There isn't a right answer.


I understand what you are saying but find knights dealing with hoardes alone not to be a great solution because of the price of their weapons, due to being on a tough chassis.

Take the reaper chaincannon, 8 shots that kill 3.5 boyz, costs 20 points.

Avenger Gatling Cannon 12 shots that kills 5.3 boyz, costs 99 points.

For that 132 you can nearly buy a full squad of reaper chaincannon havocs or 6 combi bolter bikers or 5 combi bolter Terminators. All better at that job for the points. Give them mark of slanesh and play 3cp worth of stratergems and they're killing them by the bucket load. (RCC havocks killing 35 boyz!) Same goes for bloodletter bombs or bezerkers or warptalons.

But you're right there is no definitive answer, just my thoughts


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 16:00:43


Post by: Mushkilla


All valid points.

I guess for better or worse I'm not running CSM allies so that's a constraint on my list that leads to a different load out than you. If I start running CSM allies I'll probably change things up a fair bit (death hex alone makes thermal cannons much more interesting).

Honestly, I'm just happy we have enough internal balance that most things in the chaos knight codex seem at least viable (desecrator makes me sad). Having a bunch of viable options is a nice problem to have.



Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 18:08:42


Post by: blackmage


i will play 3 Ik's (all iconoclast or maybe just one infernal) 1 with double agc 1 with agc+rfbc and one full melee, all with ironstorm missiles and a nurgle battalion with 28+28 Pb's 3 nurglings poxbringer and spoilpox, simple clean and effective.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 19:28:03


Post by: small_gods


This is what I'm taking to first tournament with knights. I'll try daemons if it doesn't work out, but think having a 1st turn charge from lord discordant and bikers to reliably clear some chaff should be decent. Just waiting on my second missile pod to arrive!

Spoiler:

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +6CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [75 PL, 6CP, 1,344pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [6CP]

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 372pts]: Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 486pts]: Dreadblade, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thermal cannon
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 486pts]: Character (Traitoris Lance), Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thermal cannon
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [35 PL, 12CP, 656pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Huron Blackheart [6 PL, 1CP, 105pts]: Reaver Lord, Warlord, Warptime

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 88pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 88pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 75pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

+ Fast Attack +

Bikers [8 PL, 140pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Biker: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. Biker: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. Biker: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. Biker: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. Biker: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter
. Biker Champion: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter

++ Total: [110 PL, 18CP, 2,000pts] ++


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/23 19:59:17


Post by: blackmage


i will try to fit at least a 2nd or 3rd LoD, just swap marines with cultists, you have anyway 15CP at start, for me you get then a good list.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 02:24:46


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I think if we are fielding 3 big knights, it will essentially be a chaos knight army. Even if we go cheap (3 double thermal knights), its just what we spend on the remaining 600 points (in a 2k army) or 350 points (in a 1750 point army). Those will add flavour, but it will be the knight who win or lose the game.

If its 1 knight with two war dogs, there may be more points to play with. And if its just 1 knight from a superheavy detachment, then it will be to plug the gaps of a Chaos army.

Chaos generally doesn't have as strong shooting as imperium (unless we go forgeworld dreads). So heavy shooty knights are one way to plug that gap. However, in a straight up shooting fight, a chaos castellan is likely less damaging than an imperium one).

Double gun knights do pack a ton of ranged firepower though. So, it is likely here that we will shine. The other way would be two Infernal war dogs and 1 knight.

I think we should see the stronger melee aspects of chaos knight as a bonus rather than a key strategy. Melee has traditionally been at a disadvantage competitively because you need to a delivery mechanism for it, and there are no easy ways to deliver an entire army into melee on turn 1. Plus you then have to worry about bubble wrap and chaff on top of that.

Given that melee knights have increased in points cost for us, ranged knights makes far more sense from a points efficiency perspective. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest running three double thermal cannon knights in place of three melee knights if I wanted to go "melee knights". If you go Iconoclast household. All three knights will have 5 melee attacks anyway, and then you get 6 thermal cannons on top of that. Round up the remaining 600 points with objective grabbers, and chaff clearing units. The 3 thermal knights can shoot out any heavy support that threatens T8. After that is taken out, they can then go to town in combat and shooting the rest of the army.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 11:56:46


Post by: small_gods


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Spoiler:
I think if we are fielding 3 big knights, it will essentially be a chaos knight army. Even if we go cheap (3 double thermal knights), its just what we spend on the remaining 600 points (in a 2k army) or 350 points (in a 1750 point army). Those will add flavour, but it will be the knight who win or lose the game.

If its 1 knight with two war dogs, there may be more points to play with. And if its just 1 knight from a superheavy detachment, then it will be to plug the gaps of a Chaos army.

Chaos generally doesn't have as strong shooting as imperium (unless we go forgeworld dreads). So heavy shooty knights are one way to plug that gap. However, in a straight up shooting fight, a chaos castellan is likely less damaging than an imperium one).

Double gun knights do pack a ton of ranged firepower though. So, it is likely here that we will shine. The other way would be two Infernal war dogs and 1 knight.

I think we should see the stronger melee aspects of chaos knight as a bonus rather than a key strategy. Melee has traditionally been at a disadvantage competitively because you need to a delivery mechanism for it, and there are no easy ways to deliver an entire army into melee on turn 1. Plus you then have to worry about bubble wrap and chaff on top of that.

Given that melee knights have increased in points cost for us, ranged knights makes far more sense from a points efficiency perspective. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest running three double thermal cannon knights in place of three melee knights if I wanted to go "melee knights". If you go Iconoclast household. All three knights will have 5 melee attacks anyway, and then you get 6 thermal cannons on top of that. Round up the remaining 600 points with objective grabbers, and chaff clearing units. The 3 thermal knights can shoot out any heavy support that threatens T8. After that is taken out, they can then go to town in combat and shooting the rest of the army.


There's definately a good case for being able to hit all the targets you want rather than being choked up on screening units. I think the mele damage of the extra attacks hitting on 2+ is close to comparable to having 2d6 thermal shots but if you have the cp to throw at trail of destruction on one of thise iconoclast therma knights then the gap is even closer!

Three double thermal with ionstorm still leaves you with 761 points enough for 2 daemon battalions or red cosair LDs and 3x5 csm and some change!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 12:06:12


Post by: Tooooon


Rate my list my dudes


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [46 PL, 4CP, 818pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Huron Blackheart [6 PL, 1CP, 105pts]: Prescience, Reaver Lord, Warlord

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) [68 PL, -2CP, 1,181pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Corrupted Heirlooms [-1CP]: One model

Tyrannical Court [-1CP]: One model

+ Lord of War +

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 372pts]: Character (Traitoris Lance), Character (Tyrannical Court), Corrupted Heirloom, Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

Knight Despoiler [25 PL, 485pts]: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

War Dogs [9 PL, 162pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

War Dogs [9 PL, 162pts]
. War Dog: Heavy stubber, Iconoclast Household, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

++ Total: [114 PL, 2CP, 1,999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 13:35:10


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Interestingly, the one way I can think of for a high impact turn 1 melee knight army would be the following:

Have one melee despoiler. Then have a Lord of Skulls along with a sorceror with warptime, maybe throw in a Lord Discordant with the souforged pack warlord trait.

Turn 1, the melee knight move advances and use the strategem full tilt, maybe give him some additional strategem or such that further increases his movement and advance. The Lord of skulls also moves up and then gets a second move with warp time. Use demon forge to shoot all its guns before charging. The Lord Discordant and whatever buddies he has also charges up, and there is a strategem that also allows him to advance and charge.

Turn 1, you could be looking at the opponent being charged by a Melee despoiler, a Lord of skulls, and a Lord Discordant at the minimum. over 1200 points of very hard hitting stuff straight down the throat on turn 1. Its a very hard hitting turn 1 punch.

However, as with all melee armies. You will still have to deal with melee blockers, and bubble wrap chaff. So, you will have to round it up with chain cannon wielding CSM or other chaff clearing units.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 14:39:48


Post by: Azuza001


Or triple helldrakes to fly up with them, flame a hole into the enemy lines, then have 6 different monster chargers t1.... just saying.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 14:52:44


Post by: Fan67


I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 14:54:00


Post by: JNAProductions


 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 15:09:02


Post by: Fan67


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.



Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 15:11:04


Post by: JNAProductions


 Fan67 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.



Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.
Ah-I don't know my Renegade Strats that well.

Thanks for the tip!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 15:24:14


Post by: small_gods


 Fan67 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.



Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.


Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 15:24:46


Post by: JNAProductions


 small_gods wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.



Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.


Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?
AFB, but I don't think so.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 15:25:04


Post by: small_gods


Thinking I could move my bikes over for 1 cp always good to have in the pocket for playing tau clustered round a ruin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.



Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.


Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?
AFB, but I don't think so.


I think if I take it on it's own I wouldn't get access to it. But if I take a full csm detachment in addition(which I plan on doing) I would unlock csm stratergems and be able to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also gain their legion trait so I would have a chance of regaining CP by killing chaff with the bikes!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 15:49:43


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Azuza001 wrote:
Or triple helldrakes to fly up with them, flame a hole into the enemy lines, then have 6 different monster chargers t1.... just saying.


Yup, great minds think alike! I came up with such a list (kinda). Posted it on the CSM tactics thread.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 16:59:53


Post by: Fan67


 small_gods wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.



Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.


Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?


No, you won’t. It is a bit tricky to implement in a full chaos knight list.
My teammate is going to test triple knights with proper csm detachment with broken legion: noise marines (alpha i suppose, or emperor children to save points on troops), two troops fillers, lord (same as noise), sorc, helddrake (crimson).

Another take is to get large biker squad and warptime them after advance. But less reliable than a drake.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/24 17:10:26


Post by: Not Online!!!


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
Or triple helldrakes to fly up with them, flame a hole into the enemy lines, then have 6 different monster chargers t1.... just saying.


Yup, great minds think alike! I came up with such a list (kinda). Posted it on the CSM tactics thread.


That relies on the baleflamer pulling it's weight.
How likely is that supposed to be?

I rekon not very.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 11:24:57


Post by: small_gods


 Fan67 wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Fan67 wrote:
I am astonished nobody yet listed a Chaos Knights roster with Crimson Slaughter Helldrake or Bikers...

On a densely terrained table getting -1 to hit against your knights might be gamebreaking.
I'm confused how these two statements interact.



Terrifying Phenomena (2 CP): Pick a terrain feature within 12" of a CRIMSON SLAUGHTER unit. Enemy models within 3" of it suffer a -1 to hit.


Do you get access to that strat if you take an auxiliary detachment?


No, you won’t. It is a bit tricky to implement in a full chaos knight list.
My teammate is going to test triple knights with proper csm detachment with broken legion: noise marines (alpha i suppose, or emperor children to save points on troops), two troops fillers, lord (same as noise), sorc, helddrake (crimson).

Another take is to get large biker squad and warptime them after advance. But less reliable than a drake.


I'm taking Huron a Lord Discordant and 3x 5 csm in a cosairs detachment and the bikes in an auxiliary detachment. So I have the choice of warptiming the bikes if opponent is clustered round terrain or lord discordant if I want a 1st turn charge.

Drake would be simpler but they're always so underwhelming. Suppose I coild buy a hell talon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New FW knight stats today: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/07/25/more-knights-more-awesome-new-faq-and-update-now-livegw-homepage-post-2/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kknightsfaq250719

Liking the new look castigator!

Also FAQ is out. And yes you can have double dreadblade pacts with the relic.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 17:29:04


Post by: Heafstaag


Any idea on when the new armigers will be released?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 17:32:47


Post by: Sokhar


<edit>


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 17:37:07


Post by: beast_gts


Heafstaag wrote:
Any idea on when the new armigers will be released?

There's been handfuls of the Moirax available at the last few events so it shouldn't be too long - hopefully their rules getting released is a good sign!

EDIT: WarCom article actually says pre-order tomorrow!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 17:41:34


Post by: Dracarys


I don't know, but I feel that aside from the moirax data sheet they made the FW knights more underwhelming by stripping out special rules from them.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 17:45:04


Post by: Heafstaag


Excellent to hear! I have Imperial and Chaos knights (just a few of each and they mostly sit on my shelf), and I'm looking to grab eventually at least 3 of those moirax armigers for both factions!

Very neat!

As to some gameplay with the new chaos knight codex:

Holy crap! I'm sure its no news to anyone, but Iconoclast rampagers are absolutely fantastic. Played a game last knight where one was able to get into combat with a duel avenger gatling cannon knight and absolutely wrecked it!

It then proceeded to wipe out a unit of 3 obliterators in one round of combat. 7 attacks with the chainsword, with 6s generating more!

Rampagers are deadly. I had a dual battlecannon knight that was soaking the enemies fire for the first 2 rounds which allowed the rampagers (2) and choppy armigers to move forward and engage at will. Absolutely glorious!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 17:47:21


Post by: beast_gts


Dracarys wrote:
I don't know, but I feel that aside from the moirax data sheet they made the FW knights more underwhelming by stripping out special rules from them.

Agree.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 18:04:47


Post by: Jackal444


Infernal Casigator anyone? 16 S7 AP-2 3 damage shots? The sword got buffed too as a small bonus.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 18:24:52


Post by: BAN


Any Forgeworld knights outshining the rest after the update? I was excited to use the Atropos but now not so much :/


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 18:45:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Kinda want a Lancer.

Hits like a tonne of bricks, and is pretty speedy with a 14” move.

However, it’s overall efficiency is dependant on your opponent having big tanks, characters or super heavies for it to go poke.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 18:48:57


Post by: Nightlord1987


I have a game against a Prophyron this weekend, so this nerf came just in time! It can still get a 2+ 4++ with relics and WL traits, but it wont be worse than a Castellan.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 19:01:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Also fairly tickled by the Moirax War Dogs.

Are they objectively better than the regular ones? I dunno. I’m not really a hobby number cruncher. But some of their weapons are quite appealing, and could allow them, tactically, to straddle the gap between the Codex War Dogs, where we’ve a choice of Anti-Infantry or Anti-Tank. Could prove useful if points are tight, and you don’t want to overly specialise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lightning Locks in particular hold promise. More reliable shots wise than the Autocannon, but don’t hit quite as hard.

If you’re expecting infantry, they’re a fairly reasonable alternative to fielding a Big Knight with twin Gatling Cannon? Even slightly flukey rolling could see lots and lots of hits, ideal for flattening hordes of Boyz and Bugs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Torn on the Graviton Pulsar though.

In theory, it’s a decent answer if you expect to fight say, Speed Freeks, with lots of light vehicles. But only D6 shots, and S6, I’m not seeing it as being quite as tasty as the others.

Though I suppose if your opponents regularly field Tau Battlesuits or Terminator equivalents, those extra wounds and - 3 to saves is fairly appealing? Just don’t know how common such units crop up.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 19:07:46


Post by: dreadblade


I played my first pure Chaos Knights game this evening against SW, playing Maelstrom of War: Deadlock...

The only thing I changed from the list I posted earlier was that I took the Aura of Terror warlord trait instead of the Warp-Haunted Hull (because my opponent had no psykers).

It was quite a one-sided game, with the Infernal Household taking it 12VP to 3VP when the False Emperor's wolves conceded at the end of battle round 5.

I'm loving the Tzeentchian Pyrothrone artefact, and that warlord trait saved me from the thunder hammers more than once!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 19:16:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Is the ‘surprise Smite’ proving effective overall then?

I’m far, far behind the game knowledge curve, so apologies if I’ve just asked a ‘duh’ question.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/25 19:27:41


Post by: dreadblade


Well it's your only psychic ability if you run a pure knights list so it certainly helps - particularly against SW with 3++ storm shields...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 03:20:02


Post by: orkswubwub


So the new wardogs look like they clock in a bit cheaper (could be 155 pts?)? That's exciting, also the ability to have stronger antihorde looks great - in my particular list I was hungry for some anti-horde and the lighting locks fit the bill. Also opens up points for changing my TSons sorc to a Sorc in Termi with a familiar which isn't too shabby either...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 03:53:10


Post by: Salt donkey


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also fairly tickled by the Moirax War Dogs.

Are they objectively better than the regular ones? I dunno. I’m not really a hobby number cruncher. But some of their weapons are quite appealing, and could allow them, tactically, to straddle the gap between the Codex War Dogs, where we’ve a choice of Anti-Infantry or Anti-Tank. Could prove useful if points are tight, and you don’t want to overly specialise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lightning Locks in particular hold promise. More reliable shots wise than the Autocannon, but don’t hit quite as hard.

If you’re expecting infantry, they’re a fairly reasonable alternative to fielding a Big Knight with twin Gatling Cannon? Even slightly flukey rolling could see lots and lots of hits, ideal for flattening hordes of Boyz and Bugs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Torn on the Graviton Pulsar though.

In theory, it’s a decent answer if you expect to fight say, Speed Freeks, with lots of light vehicles. But only D6 shots, and S6, I’m not seeing it as being quite as tasty as the others.

Though I suppose if your opponents regularly field Tau Battlesuits or Terminator equivalents, those extra wounds and - 3 to saves is fairly appealing? Just don’t know how common such units crop up.


Agree about the Lightning lock. I really like the sound of running a pair of duel lightning lock wardogs to fill out an infernal detachment. The problem with the auto cannons is they are ok at killing infantry or big stuff, but are never great in either scenario. With the additional hits, a duel lightning lock wardog has the average equivalent of 15 shots on a BS 3+ (as 3 shots here equal 2 hits what you’re most like to get from additional hits). That’s 7 more shots then the average autocannon result of 8, nearly double the shots. You even get better 1 better AP to boot, helping out against units like fire warriors, guardsman, stuff in cover, genestealer cult anything, etc. So while these guys are weaker against big models, it doesn’t matter because you won’t be targeting them. Finally let’s not forgot this loadout is cheaper as well making it a much better choice to the “Helverin” IMO.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 04:05:15


Post by: Azuza001


So the faq made dreadblades more tactical, made the chaos rift more fair (come on, no matter the cast it was a perials was a bit much, who can deny that?), and confirmed the relics still allow exploding 6's with the rampager.

Did i miss anything?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 05:34:24


Post by: drakerocket


I would say that chaos rift went from being "situational, but pretty good" to "probably won't ever be used". Your odds of rolling doubles on 2d6 is less than 17%. 17% is about 1 in 6 psychic powers. Even assuming your enemy cast 6 psychic powers within range (uncommon) I can't imagine wanting to spend CP to deal 1d3 damage to an enemy unit my opponent picked.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 07:55:50


Post by: Mushkilla


Azuza001 wrote:
So the faq made dreadblades more tactical, made the chaos rift more fair (come on, no matter the cast it was a perials was a bit much, who can deny that?)


It was actual pretty useless even when it was any dice rolls. I used it in a few games and always regretted it. It basically stops a single model from casting a power twice if they have 4 wounds or less and don't have FNP. All your opponent has to do to counter it is move their caster 12" away from your knights (surprisingly easy). Or cast one power with each psycher. The problem with it is that it doesn't actually stop the 1 power they really need to get off. Sure if you activate it two turns in a row then it might be useful if you can keep your opponent in the effect. But then we are talking 4cp. Even when I combined it with Daemonic possession 1CP when a character perils it takes 2d3 mortal wounds it just cost more CP an still doesn't reliably stop a power going off unless it kills the caster.

In short it doesn't stop the power you want stop going off unless the caster is within 12" of one of your knights and has 2 or less wounds remaining (so has been wounded or has been affected by perils already). For it to be effective you need to have it active over multiple turns and we have better things to spend the CP on. All this was when it worked on any roll, now I don't see myself ever using it.

drakerocket wrote:
I would say that chaos rift went from being "situational, but pretty good" to "probably won't ever be used". Your odds of rolling doubles on 2d6 is less than 17%. 17% is about 1 in 6 psychic powers. Even assuming your enemy cast 6 psychic powers within range (uncommon) I can't imagine wanting to spend CP to deal 1d3 damage to an enemy unit my opponent picked.


Yeah why bother? Just summon an infernal enrapturess and get a 24" all doubles are perils for the rest of the game for 80pts.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 07:58:31


Post by: Not Online!!!


If someone were bit insane and kitbash -hungry?
How would you set up an all renegade amiriger army?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 08:33:02


Post by: Fan67


Rift nerf was unnecessary.
Now Infernal Knights have become even more questionable.
That stratagem really mattered on War Dogs.
You could advance them and turn rift on, making it really hard to cast something on your bigger knights and support frontlines if enemy is futslogging.

Combination with Daemons for 2d3 mw perils could really prevent enemy from certain casts or affect his positioning on the table.

Now it is just “enraptureness for one phase with huge cp cost”.
Useless...


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 08:42:23


Post by: Kdash


 Fan67 wrote:
Rift nerf was unnecessary.
Now Infernal Knights have become even more questionable.
That stratagem really mattered on War Dogs.
You could advance them and turn rift on, making it really hard to cast something on your bigger knights and support frontlines if enemy is futslogging.

Combination with Daemons for 2d3 mw perils could really prevent enemy from certain casts or affect his positioning on the table.

Now it is just “enraptureness for one phase with huge cp cost”.
Useless...


To be fair, it would have been potentially game breaking in a lot of cases though. So many psykers would have the potential of just dying instantly on their first cast, and others also have the possibility when using the daemon strat as well. Most psykers only have 2-4 wounds.

That said, making it only work on doubles and leaving it at 2CP means it’ll likely never ever get used, except maybe vs Grey Knights due to their 12” smite spam range.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 09:33:02


Post by: BoomWolf


Can someone link to information of these so called new wardogs? I can't find anything.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 09:34:09


Post by: Not Online!!!


 BoomWolf wrote:
Can someone link to information of these so called new wardogs? I can't find anything.


Knight Moirax:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Knight-Moirax-with-Lightning-Locks-2019

That's the laslock version of it.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 09:51:47


Post by: BoomWolf


Yea, just found the warhammer community post.

New knights seem interesting.
Not of value to me, as the new war dogs seems to be anti-infantry, and as TS I have plenty, but anti-tank is lacking.


Anyone found some gems in the FW knights so far? on a glance the "codex" knights seem kina better.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 09:55:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The Moirax strike me as really belonging in a pure Knights army.

See, as mentioned, they're largely geared toward squishing infantry, and the weapons each have their own niche (light, MEQ etc).

Me? I've ordered a Twin Lightning Lock one. And will probably get a second later in the month. They strike me as a far cheaper alternative to a twin Gatling Questoris chassis.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 10:01:28


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Moirax strike me as really belonging in a pure Knights army.

See, as mentioned, they're largely geared toward squishing infantry, and the weapons each have their own niche (light, MEQ etc).

Me? I've ordered a Twin Lightning Lock one. And will probably get a second later in the month. They strike me as a far cheaper alternative to a twin Gatling Questoris chassis.


Ayy pure knight armies will love them. Other armies that soup will not require them.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 10:22:32


Post by: Latro_


Not Online!!! wrote:
If someone were bit insane and kitbash -hungry?
How would you set up an all renegade amiriger army?


Iconoclast:
Super heavy
3 wardogs - 480

Super heavy
3 wardogs - 480

Super heavy
3 wardogs - 480

CSM - Supreme command
3 lord discordants - 480

about 1920, chuck a few meltas on a few of the wardogs.

CHARGE!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 10:26:32


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Latro_ wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
If someone were bit insane and kitbash -hungry?
How would you set up an all renegade amiriger army?


Iconoclast:
Super heavy
3 wardogs - 480

Super heavy
3 wardogs - 480

Super heavy
3 wardogs - 480

CSM - Supreme command
3 lord discordants - 480

about 1920, chuck a few meltas on a few of the wardogs.

CHARGE!


But i love autocannons

Spoiler:



Altough i love the concept, i think some of the laslocks ones might be decent in such a list.



Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 13:43:58


Post by: StrayIight


drakerocket wrote:
I would say that chaos rift went from being "situational, but pretty good" to "probably won't ever be used". Your odds of rolling doubles on 2d6 is less than 17%. 17% is about 1 in 6 psychic powers. Even assuming your enemy cast 6 psychic powers within range (uncommon) I can't imagine wanting to spend CP to deal 1d3 damage to an enemy unit my opponent picked.


I couldn't agree more. Auto-perils within 12" was not broken. You probably weren't killing anything with that strat alone. What it did do, is promote some THOUGHT on both players part, in terms of where and when they could afford to cast, and where a caster had to be positioned. Frankly I think it was one of the better designed strats I've seen in a long time - it encouraged more tactical play and engagement from everyone.

Now we have an ability that we still pay 2CP for, and that has a very good chance of doing absolutely nothing at all.

I could have lived with it having a CP increase. But as it stands now it's essentially not worth using.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 14:16:08


Post by: Horst


A 12" exclusion bubble for making casting hurt isn't broken at all, and is honestly probably still somewhat useless. I play Imperium, and often have tried to take a Culexus to shut down psykers... everyone just stays outside his 18" bubble. It's not like it's hard to do, especially when the best psykers have a 12" move or more.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 14:22:53


Post by: small_gods


 Horst wrote:
A 12" exclusion bubble for making casting hurt isn't broken at all, and is honestly probably still somewhat useless. I play Imperium, and often have tried to take a Culexus to shut down psykers... everyone just stays outside his 18" bubble. It's not like it's hard to do, especially when the best psykers have a 12" move or more.


Yeah especially T Sons with 24 inch range. I'd much rather see a Culexus than a Vindicare or even Eversor/Callidus when I playing psyker heavy list with some nurgle to tie up culexus.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 16:16:49


Post by: dreadblade


Diabolic Rift wasn't nerfed in the errata from the designer's commentary - it was corrected. The original wording didn't read right and was clearly a mistake.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 16:23:22


Post by: StrayIight


 Brother Castor wrote:
Diabolic Rift wasn't nerfed in the errata from the designer's commentary - it was corrected. The original wording didn't read right and was clearly a mistake.


Possibly so, but I don't think that changes the fact that as it was, it wasn't completely overpowered and played really quite interestingly. Now, it's not likely to see play at all. As Mushy points out above, you can pay 80 points for unit that will do that all day long, costs no CP, and has twice the bubble!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 17:38:51


Post by: Heafstaag


I preordered 2 of each of the new armigers! Can't wait to get them on the field and try them out.

I'll probably proxy different load outs with my friends to find which one I like the best.

The twin las lock build looks great to me...lots of dakka The twin conversion beamer option may be fun as well- though all the guns looks fun to try!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 18:30:41


Post by: Salt donkey


IMO Warp Rift got buffed in the FAQ,because now people won't be tempted to waste 2 CP using it and won't see it as a real stratagem when choosing between infernal and Iconoclast. The real importation part of FAQ was clarifying that you can indeed give 2 Dreadblades knights pacts and damnation's by using the relic. Very helpful since I have a tournament this weekend.

As far as forgeworld knights my favorite big knight is the Castigator. For 430 points you get a knight who gets 8 less shots then a double avenger knight, but also moves 14 inches, has 3 more wounds, and has a CC weapon that will actually be better than feet in many situations (Not all but many). Very good deal and a knight that I will be eager to try.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 18:38:46


Post by: Sir Fred


I am liking the Castigator too.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/26 18:52:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Salt donkey wrote:
IMO Warp Rift got buffed in the FAQ,because now people won't be tempted to waste 2 CP using it and won't see it as a real stratagem when choosing between infernal and Iconoclast. The real importation part of FAQ was clarifying that you can indeed give 2 Dreadblades knights pacts and damnation's by using the relic. Very helpful since I have a tournament this weekend.

As far as forgeworld knights my favorite big knight is the Castigator. For 430 points you get a knight who gets 8 less shots then a double avenger knight, but also moves 14 inches, has 3 more wounds, and has a CC weapon that will actually be better than feet in many situations (Not all but many). Very good deal and a knight that I will be eager to try.


For only a few points more (though with Knights. That’s still a hefty premium) Double Lightning War Dogs do a lot of dakka!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/27 12:12:42


Post by: Nithaniel


Double lightning lock wardogs could be a good way to not need to rely on a double gatling knight. Could use the knight for other loadouts.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/27 12:19:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yup.

It will of course come down to personal preference, and your local scene.

But the Moirax are defo something all players should consider.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/27 12:51:05


Post by: Rogerio134134


Anyone know how to get chaos Knights working on battle scribe? I keep trying to do a list on there but it won't let me add any units??


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/27 13:35:13


Post by: Nithaniel


Rogerio134134 wrote:
Anyone know how to get chaos Knights working on battle scribe? I keep trying to do a list on there but it won't let me add any units??


Assuming you have the updated data file, you need to make sure you choose the right detachment such as super heavy or super heavy aux

I've just checked and its working fine for me, I have V1.3.15 data file for 40k


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/27 20:39:23


Post by: TonyH122


I've been looking at tournament placing IK lists and test Chaos Knights list. One of the things that caught my eye is that IK players running triple Knights frequently, if not always run a Castellan/Valiant, while Chaos players seem to be shying away from Tyrants in draft lists.

Anyone have any thoughts as to why this might be the case? Is it that IK players can't break the habit? Is it just that Chaos players are hipster-avoiding the flavour of the month (despite its nerfs)? Or is it that the Chaos version lacks the necessary strategems (or unit synergies) to make them work?

Any insights here would be helpful.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/27 23:43:53


Post by: Heafstaag


 TonyH122 wrote:
I've been looking at tournament placing IK lists and test Chaos Knights list. One of the things that caught my eye is that IK players running triple Knights frequently, if not always run a Castellan/Valiant, while Chaos players seem to be shying away from Tyrants in draft lists.

Anyone have any thoughts as to why this might be the case? Is it that IK players can't break the habit? Is it just that Chaos players are hipster-avoiding the flavour of the month (despite its nerfs)? Or is it that the Chaos version lacks the necessary strategems (or unit synergies) to make them work?

Any insights here would be helpful.


Its still very early in play testing. Trying out other things before using a tyrant?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 00:27:53


Post by: blackmage


seems like a god setup is 3 Ik's iconoclasts, 2 shooty (double gatling) and 1 melee, Geoof Robinson (RIP cool man) was testing that configuration.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 03:11:12


Post by: astro_nomicon


 TonyH122 wrote:
I've been looking at tournament placing IK lists and test Chaos Knights list. One of the things that caught my eye is that IK players running triple Knights frequently, if not always run a Castellan/Valiant, while Chaos players seem to be shying away from Tyrants in draft lists.

Anyone have any thoughts as to why this might be the case? Is it that IK players can't break the habit? Is it just that Chaos players are hipster-avoiding the flavour of the month (despite its nerfs)? Or is it that the Chaos version lacks the necessary strategems (or unit synergies) to make them work?

Any insights here would be helpful.


I think the most obvious reason is lack of the Cawls Wrath relic that makes Imperial Castellans truly deadly. Castellans seem to be falling out of favor amongst imperial players already due to the points hike and capping of invuln saves to 4,++ in addition


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 03:29:55


Post by: Heafstaag


I would have been very interested to try out my porphoryion before it was so unjustly nerfed as a chaos knight....


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 05:43:42


Post by: BoomWolf


 TonyH122 wrote:
I've been looking at tournament placing IK lists and test Chaos Knights list. One of the things that caught my eye is that IK players running triple Knights frequently, if not always run a Castellan/Valiant, while Chaos players seem to be shying away from Tyrants in draft lists.

Anyone have any thoughts as to why this might be the case? Is it that IK players can't break the habit? Is it just that Chaos players are hipster-avoiding the flavour of the month (despite its nerfs)? Or is it that the Chaos version lacks the necessary strategems (or unit synergies) to make them work?

Any insights here would be helpful.


Because if you want to go for the big boys, the imperials just do it better.

Rule of chaos-do NOT try to directly match imperials, you'll lose every time as the loyalist scum get much more love, thus more options and more synergy opportunities.

The way chaos wins is by doing things the imperials have no direct counterpart to.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 10:55:03


Post by: small_gods


Heafstaag wrote:
I would have been very interested to try out my porphoryion before it was so unjustly nerfed as a chaos knight....


I can see why it lost it's 2+ BS because that was too much 9f an advantage over the castellan
But everything else was just unnecessary.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 11:45:49


Post by: blackmage


look at Ik knight as melee units with added firepower, that's the way to look at them.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 17:48:52


Post by: Xenomancers


I am currently converting 2 wardogs to have lightning locks and claws to run with a battle cannon knight with the relic chainsword.

Seems like a good all rounder knight force to insert with my black legion. Running them as infernal so I can boost their one gun TO THE MAX.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 20:27:53


Post by: ballzonya


Hello all I need help I have a knight valient does the chaos knights have a version with the same loudout so I can convert it?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 20:40:38


Post by: small_gods


ballzonya wrote:
Hello all I need help I have a knight valient does the chaos knights have a version with the same loudout so I can convert it?


Yes they have an identical version in the chaos knight codex. It is one of the two versions of the Knight Tyrant. Get some spikes stuck on it and you're golden!


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 20:54:55


Post by: dreadblade


Is a War Dog Moirax with twin lightning locks really better than a standard War Dog with twin autocannons?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 21:02:38


Post by: Sokhar


If your intended role is anti-infantry, then absolutely. Cheaper, more shots, more AP. If you need the increased range, STR, and damage then it becomes a murkier question.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 21:07:51


Post by: Xenomancers


ballzonya wrote:
Hello all I need help I have a knight valient does the chaos knights have a version with the same loudout so I can convert it?

Yes and it can actually be quite beastly as infernal house. You can buff it to +1 str and damage on it's flamer for the house trait every turn at the expense of d3 mortals to yourself. In a lot of cases this will double your damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Is a War Dog Moirax with twin lightning locks really better than a standard War Dog with twin autocannons?
IDK. The twin autos is actually a very powerful loadout. I do think the C beams give it a run for it's money for anti vehicle though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blackmage wrote:
look at Ik knight as melee units with added firepower, that's the way to look at them.
Iconoclast are the melle house - infernal is more allrounder. They can buff their shooting really good but only for 1 gun. Even on a 2 gun knight though. If you have avenger and battle cannon. In lots of matchups youll only need to buff the 1 gun to get the most out of it.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 23:10:22


Post by: X078


Infernal without any form of easy and cheap repairs is too much of a gamble. (Even with repairs its iffy because you spend points on repair stuff which is seldomly competitive.) Thats 5 - 15 wounds per knight your giving away and the ”heal” strat is not good enough. It’s been compared to the Riptide Nova reactor but they can get away with it due to them being able to mitigate some enemy damage via drones, Knights not so much. For myself i see infernal more as a gimmic, for now at least.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/28 23:55:12


Post by: Xenomancers


X078 wrote:
Infernal without any form of easy and cheap repairs is too much of a gamble. (Even with repairs its iffy because you spend points on repair stuff which is seldomly competitive.) Thats 5 - 15 wounds per knight your giving away and the ”heal” strat is not good enough. It’s been compared to the Riptide Nova reactor but they can get away with it due to them being able to mitigate some enemy damage via drones, Knights not so much. For myself i see infernal more as a gimmic, for now at least.

Doing 1-3 wounds to yourself to deal double damage (typically this will be the result) is basically nothing. Plus if it's not important you just take the random roll and hope you get at least 1 of the two good ones and just take 1 mortal. T9 and damage boost. I think Iconoclast is great too - probably better. Though it is surely less fun. All it really does is buff melle which infernal can do as well. Consdier cawls wrath. It's got a pretty goof chance to deal 1-2 damage to yourself when you overcharge but pretty much no one didn't use it. OFC you could reroll 1's but that costs 3 cp. For the armigers it is a real gamable because they have half the wounds but take the same damage.
Typicall I will be running it with lord discordants and the like. I'm pretty sure they are going to get targeted first. Or my opponent is making a huge mistake.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/29 04:23:06


Post by: orkswubwub


Thoughts on the new castigator? Infernal on the gun looks good but the fact it can only shoot 16 shots into one target seems limiting... Not good for hard vehicle and why use infernal to buff the gun against hordes?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/29 08:42:20


Post by: blackmage


But take mortals every turn to improve your weapon isn't a big deal, in particular in competitive, lot of stratagem are based on iconoclast household


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/29 10:38:44


Post by: small_gods


orkswubwub wrote:
Thoughts on the new castigator? Infernal on the gun looks good but the fact it can only shoot 16 shots into one target seems limiting... Not good for hard vehicle and why use infernal to buff the gun against hordes?


Think it's good against everything but t8 plus. Doing around 14 wounds to something t7 3+.

It's easier to get a t1 charge because of 14" movement, with full tilt and infernal you're getting 27.5" adverage threat range. And small buffs to sword aren't bad.

But you're right there's a better tool for all jobs in the codex, it's just of a bit of an all rounder.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/29 11:45:02


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Brother Castor wrote:
Is a War Dog Moirax with twin lightning locks really better than a standard War Dog with twin autocannons?


As others have said, both yes and also no.

It's overall less flexible than the Autocannon. But, for anti-infantry, far more reliable, as each gun just gets 6 shots, rather than 2D3. Add in even slightly spawny rolling, and you're getting those lovely exploding 6's.

At the risk of sounding daft, I think I'd settle on which Questoris or Dominus classes I want first, then consider which War Dog sub-type would best support them. If your big boys are about smashing up tanks and assorted big stuff? Twin Lightning Lock rapidly and competently fill your anti-infantry requirement. If your big boys are more balanced in their approach? Autocannon War Dogs might prove preferential, as they can still tackle a wider selection of targets. But, having said that, the sheer volume of firepower kicked out by twin Lightning Locks should still be considered for polishing off damaged enemy armour. Sure their Damage stat is 1 - but that save modifier is mighty tempting when you only need to do three or four wounds.

All highly situational of course. If the near-ded enemy armour isn't a particular threat to your force (maybe it's a mainly anti-infantry loadout), then if there are other targets, the Moirax are still most definitely wasting their firepower.

Me? I'm going for three, as it lets me field dual Meltacannon Knights for the backbone of my force.

Overall, consider your local meta, however you prefer to game. If you see a general preference toward light-medium infantry, Twin Lightning Locks will punch well above their weight.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/30 03:11:11


Post by: Xenomancers


 blackmage wrote:
But take mortals every turn to improve your weapon isn't a big deal, in particular in competitive, lot of stratagem are based on iconoclast household
I think more often than not jsut taking 1 wound and rolling a random dice will be fine. Going to 14" or 16" move with the dreadblade trait is also really powerful. T9 is also dandy. If you really need to chose you roll a random mortal result. 2/3 of the time you take just 1 or 2 damage. Not a big deal. 3 really stings but it will probably still be worth it. need to regen? Charge a chaff unit and kill 8+ models to regen 4 wounds or so. It is totally worakable IMO. Also an infernal valliant just becomes god mode with that flamer. str 8-2 flat 3 damage 3d6 auto hits?


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/30 09:33:55


Post by: blackmage


you guys play too much garagehammer im afraid.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/30 10:20:39


Post by: COLD CASH


Thats quite a silly comment aimed at no one i can see in this page??????


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/30 13:42:49


Post by: small_gods


COLD CASH wrote:
Thats quite a silly comment aimed at no one i can see in this page??????


I can translate if you want:

You don't agree with me, and I'm clearly the best at 40k, so none of you are playing the game right.


Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation  @ 2019/07/30 17:49:15


Post by: Xenomancers


 blackmage wrote:
you guys play too much garagehammer im afraid.
No dude I am playing I'm at freaking work and thinking about gaming hammer.