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Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 18:49:18


Post by: Backspacehacker


And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 18:57:43


Post by: Crablezworth


Yeah I'm really hoping the rhino is just a re-boxing before sisters, if it's actually out of print that totally sucks.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 18:59:19


Post by: G00fySmiley


seems like th enew chapter tactics are going to help classic marines. personally my biker armies look to have gotten stronger with the new tactics assumign points stay the same. also my blue tide list of max tac marines iron hands got stronger.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 18:59:28


Post by: fraser1191


I don't see a problem as it stands. There's someone on here that plays normal marines adamantly. Plus this new codex is breathing life into everything not just Primaris marines. If Primaris is what's driving you to drop an entire hobby then I don't think this is the hobby for you


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:03:26


Post by: Viridian


You can let GW define the hobby for you or you can define it yourself. Granted, going your own way will leave you out a lot of games and playing whatever edition you enjoy. Better then frustration and resentment but if you feel that strong about it maybe it is better if you put it behind you.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:10:06


Post by: Backspacehacker


 Viridian wrote:
You can let GW define the hobby for you or you can define it yourself. Granted, going your own way will leave you out a lot of games and playing whatever edition you enjoy. Better then frustration and resentment but if you feel that strong about it maybe it is better if you put it behind you.


While I get that the problem is GW IS defining my hobby by force, and phasing out the units I came to love and actually like to paint and field. Dark angels, raven wing, deathwing, loved their lore their orginization, but now they are being phased out, and if the rino and or Razer back don't come back. GW is all but telling people like me, hey we don't want you for space marines anymore.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:15:43


Post by: Vankraken


 fraser1191 wrote:
I don't see a problem as it stands. There's someone on here that plays normal marines adamantly. Plus this new codex is breathing life into everything not just Primaris marines. If Primaris is what's driving you to drop an entire hobby then I don't think this is the hobby for you


I personally dislike Primaris because of the anti consumer business practices that are being used to force people to buy all new products. The whole Primaris fluff and the 180 heel turn in fluff to justify their existance reeks of a marketing lead decision making instead of one made from a creative standpoint. It's honestly somewhat insulting to do the whole "love it or leave it" garbage when people have been invested in the hobby for years and for GW to make major changes that invalidate their efforts. Given the time + money investment that is required for 40k, it's fairly reasonable for people to be unhappy with the changes and voice their displeasure instead of just shoving thousands of dollars + hours of effort into a box and walking away.

Personally I stopped buying from GW because of the paper thin and shallow rule set of 8th more than anything to do with Primaris. I won't buy Primaris because of what it stands for but if the game was actually good (my subjective opinion) then I would continue to buy product lines such as Orks, Tau, Classic Marines, etc.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:18:32


Post by: balmong7


They already confirmed on the facebook page that the rhino is just a reboxing.

I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate. Maybe its because I'm just so new to the hobby. but I genuinely didn't even realize that primaris were different from regular marines for the first couple months I was playing (I don't collect marines myself. so I just them in my opponents lists).

People are always going on about how regular marines are going to get squatted. But like, what will stop you from just using the old models as "counts as" primaris at that point? whats stopping you now?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:19:19


Post by: Backspacehacker


 Vankraken wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I don't see a problem as it stands. There's someone on here that plays normal marines adamantly. Plus this new codex is breathing life into everything not just Primaris marines. If Primaris is what's driving you to drop an entire hobby then I don't think this is the hobby for you


I personally dislike Primaris because of the anti consumer business practices that are being used to force people to buy all new products. The whole Primaris fluff and the 180 heel turn in fluff to justify their existance reeks of a marketing lead decision making instead of one made from a creative standpoint. It's honestly somewhat insulting to do the whole "love it or leave it" garbage when people have been invested in the hobby for years and for GW to make major changes that invalidate their efforts. Given the time + money investment that is required for 40k, it's fairly reasonable for people to be unhappy with the changes and voice their displeasure instead of just shoving thousands of dollars + hours of effort into a box and walking away.

Personally I stopped buying from GW because of the paper thin and shallow rule set of 8th more than anything to do with Primaris. I won't buy Primaris because of what it stands for but if the game was actually good (my subjective opinion) then I would continue to buy product lines such as Orks, Tau, Classic Marines, etc.


This hit it on the nose. Honestly it's not even anger. It's just...disappointment, because everything I actually cared about has been shoveled aside. The only thing now that actually draws my attention are the bigger unitsostly just for the painting of them. So I guess instead of marines I'm just gonna build and paint Titans now


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:23:42


Post by: Xenomancers


Classic marines just got a big buff it seems - none of these changes are exclusive for primaris. They are getting the new units but...why not just buy them?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:26:04


Post by: fraser1191


 Vankraken wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I don't see a problem as it stands. There's someone on here that plays normal marines adamantly. Plus this new codex is breathing life into everything not just Primaris marines. If Primaris is what's driving you to drop an entire hobby then I don't think this is the hobby for you


I personally dislike Primaris because of the anti consumer business practices that are being used to force people to buy all new products. The whole Primaris fluff and the 180 heel turn in fluff to justify their existance reeks of a marketing lead decision making instead of one made from a creative standpoint. It's honestly somewhat insulting to do the whole "love it or leave it" garbage when people have been invested in the hobby for years and for GW to make major changes that invalidate their efforts. Given the time + money investment that is required for 40k, it's fairly reasonable for people to be unhappy with the changes and voice their displeasure instead of just shoving thousands of dollars + hours of effort into a box and walking away.

Personally I stopped buying from GW because of the paper thin and shallow rule set of 8th more than anything to do with Primaris. I won't buy Primaris because of what it stands for but if the game was actually good (my subjective opinion) then I would continue to buy product lines such as Orks, Tau, Classic Marines, etc.


I'm not saying love it or leave it. It just initially seems like hating on Primaris for existing. I don't see classic marines going away soon or even at all. I'm sure GW saw how well up sized chaos marines did and will do it to classic later.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:28:47


Post by: Backspacehacker


balmong7 wrote:
They already confirmed on the facebook page that the rhino is just a reboxing.

I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate. Maybe its because I'm just so new to the hobby. but I genuinely didn't even realize that primaris were different from regular marines for the first couple months I was playing (I don't collect marines myself. so I just them in my opponents lists).

People are always going on about how regular marines are going to get squatted. But like, what will stop you from just using the old models as "counts as" primaris at that point? whats stopping you now?


To answer your question what will stop you, GW, GW will stop you. If you play in their stores or events they will.

To give you an example as to the hate, I'll try to give you an example. Imagine you had a classic car, just think of a classic car you like and you put in a lot of time, money, passion, and energy into it. And you always would take it to the biggest car show that was in reasonable distance to you. Everyone liked having you there, it was a good time. Then, one day, for no real reason, the car show you took your car to, one day said, hey every that came out after this year is not considered a classic anymore by us and can't be entered into the show, you can still bring it down, but it's not officially part of the show. And your classic car was at the cut off and can't enter. So now that thing you put so much time energy and money into is no longer valid at the show you always loved entering and had been a part of for years.

Your gonna feel kinda left out, and upset because they just instantly turned their back on you. Sure you can buy a new car that fits their guide lines but it's not the classic care you like, so really your just buying the new classic car to be able to enter the show with any car not the one you like.

That's what it feels like to be a space marines player who used to play classic marines.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:32:00


Post by: Bellerophon


If classic marines are going to be on the chopping block eventually, it won't be for a while - they've got a vast range of plastic kits, many of which are far newer and crisper than a huge number of kits for other armies. The moulds are there and paid for themselves, nothing required but running some castings. Smaller production volumes than in 2016, perhaps, but they probably still outsell quite a few kits for the less popular factions.

Though after seeing those elf/dwarf fantasy kits put on last chance recently, it makes me want to buy more classic marines for my Salamanders army, just in case. I mean, rules are temporary, models are forever. And I care more about my collection than any rulesets or gaming with them anyway.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:32:41


Post by: Ice_can


I'll also point out that GW has reintroduced a number of non primaris units back into the codex supplements that had been left on index life support.

This isn't the squatting that people keep trying to make it, GW likes money if they can sell old kits and new kits they'll sell everything that's profitable be that old marines, new marines or even heresy marines. Don't let the primaris fanboys make it seem all doom and gloom, even thr last Marine list to win an even was using a mix of both and if anything old marines gain way more from +1A than primaris also what CCW do primaris marines have?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:48:02


Post by: CapRichard


Goodbye.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:51:28


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


I don't want to see classic marines go away; but I'm definitely happy with the new primaris stuff.

Honestly, there's not a lot to love in oldmarine infantry, but a lot of the new Vanguard stuff actually has me enthusiastic about playing with my Space Wolves.

That said, it's also really expensive. At $100 for a Executioner, I feel like I might as well just buy myself another Shadowsword. I'd have bought it at $75 but $100 is in the realm of super-heavies and major centerpieces. And $60 for 10 infantry? I'm usually the one to observe that 40k isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of adult hobbies, but if 10 plastic infantry are more than a tank, I'll usually chose tank.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 19:52:04


Post by: Eipi10


G00fySmiley wrote:seems like th enew chapter tactics are going to help classic marines. personally my biker armies look to have gotten stronger with the new tactics assumign points stay the same. also my blue tide list of max tac marines iron hands got stronger.
With few exception, primaris marines don't seem to be too good in the game. If these recent buffs were to try and help primaris marines, then it looks like it will help old marines more, except for areas where they suffer compared to primaris (survivability against massed weak weapons).

balmong7 wrote:They already confirmed on the facebook page that the rhino is just a reboxing.

I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate. Maybe its because I'm just so new to the hobby. but I genuinely didn't even realize that primaris were different from regular marines for the first couple months I was playing (I don't collect marines myself. so I just them in my opponents lists).

People are always going on about how regular marines are going to get squatted. But like, what will stop you from just using the old models as "counts as" primaris at that point? whats stopping you now?
Primaris marines are a deus ex machina, litterally. As far a proxies go, primaris marines don't have special weapons or lots of sergeant equipment options so it's hard to do a 1:1 conversion on a kitted out tactical squad. A marine with a boltgun can be called a primaris intercessor without much fuss but a sergeant with a lightning claw and plasma pistol can't be an intercessor sergeant with a chain sword very easily.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:05:56


Post by: Racerguy180


Why should they, Primaris and Astartes work well together.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:07:56


Post by: Galef


The longer it takes for them to do this, the more if makes me think "Old Marines" will still be around for some unti types.
For example, Bikes, Landspeeders, Devs and even Tacticals could be present in the rules well into the next few editions. Units like Scouts, regular Dreads and a handful of characters could be dropped.

But I'm starting to doubt that ALL old Marines are going to be dropped entirely

-


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:10:52


Post by: Formosa


Old marines are not going away I am almost certain of this now, but they will be changing I think, I get the feeling that tactical squads and the like will eventually be replaced and the elites/ veterans etc. will all be older marines, i also hope at some point primaris start to get mixed mks or armour because at the moment they look a bit dull with all wearing the same armour.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:13:28


Post by: MrMoustaffa


balmong7 wrote:
They already confirmed on the facebook page that the rhino is just a reboxing.

I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate. Maybe its because I'm just so new to the hobby. but I genuinely didn't even realize that primaris were different from regular marines for the first couple months I was playing (I don't collect marines myself. so I just them in my opponents lists).

People are always going on about how regular marines are going to get squatted. But like, what will stop you from just using the old models as "counts as" primaris at that point? whats stopping you now?

It's understandable a new player wouldn't understand because you've not seen an old marine army compared to a Primaris ine. With the old marine armies, there was a ton of different units, loadouts and abilities, so chapters easily stood apart from one another. White scars had a ton of bikes and landspeeders. Blood Angels had a ton of jetpacks and heroes. Space Wolves got flanderized with the wolf wolf of the wolf but they had an identity. Take a look at an entirely Primaris marine army on the other hand. They're almost all identical, regardless of chapter. Wanna play white scars? Cool, you get to walk or ride in a Repulsor/hover rhino or be some fat inceptors with no melee. Wanna be blood angels? Same thing, hope you like walking or hitching a ride on a hovercraft or don't mind being a fat assault marine with no melee. Essentially it's the loadouts mainly. Old marines have a stupid amount of customization and wargear options (likely why GW wants to phase them out). Yes, I can proxy a Bolter marine as an intercessor, but what about assault marines? They're not dual wielding heavy bolters. What about bikes? They don't have a Primaris equivalent? What about devestators, who go from like 8 different weapons down to 3 different versions of plasma. A massive chunk of an okdmarines collection has no modern equivalent. Not to mention they're the largest playerbases by far, their line has the least excuse to be retired.

In addition, many of the classic marine units that are unique to codexes are not possible in a Primaris line. Death Company, Wulven, Dark Angels Deathwing and Ravenwing, space wolf "wolves", all are only possible due to geneseed mutations that have been removed due to the primaris being so perfect and pure. Gabriel Seth of the Flesh tearers explains it perfectly in the book Devestation of Baal, "these aren't blood Angels, they're Ultramarines in red paint. Without the flaw what makes them any different than any other marine out there?" Paraphrase of course. So all the stuff that makes the chapters unique, the wolf wolf of the wolf wolf Space Wolves get, the tragic vampire Noble Savage line blood Angels get, the dark brooding secrets of the Dark Angels, you get the idea. None of those are really possible with Primaris. Any geneseed mutations is fixed, any tragic backstory or history is ruined because the primaris don't care, they didn't do it. It basically kills a lot of what little justification each marine codex has for being it's own book. Heck even the dreads show GW either intentionally or unintentionally squatting the lore, with the new dreads burning their pilots out quickly, meaning other than old marines the primaris have no way to retain their most ancient warriors.

Take the new White Scars codex for example. Their hero is known for being on a bike, but Primaris don't have any bikes whatsoever. So they stuck him on foot, which is horribly against what he should be doing. Hell the entire Primaris line is an affront to the white scars fighting style. They've got no bikes, their assault marine equivalent are fat and slow with no melee options, and for the most part Primaris have no truly good melee units whatsoever. It's a line that's essentially just a walking gunline with some hover tanks forced into a chapter that hates that style of fighting. Remember that Primaris Space Wolf starter box from a while back? The only model that looked even remotely wolfy was the unique character, everything else was just painted a different shade of blue and called it a day.

Same goes for blood Angels, all the stuff they like to do they can't do with Primaris. Assault marines? Nope. Death company? Nope. Jump pack characters being badasses? Don't even get jetpacks on characters. Fast vehicles? Nah, have fun with a Repulsor.

So yeah I'm not even really a marine player but I get why they hate Primaris. The line is basically a giant middle finger mechanically, aesthetically, and lore wise to the established lore of most of the chapters. When characters in the books are outright calling Primaris generic replacements that lack the soul of what their chapter is meant to be, it's a problem. It reeks of a marketing team going "the classic marine isn't marketable in today's climate. We need a squeeky clean new version to replace them as the face".


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:14:36


Post by: Reemule


I think they should be more clear on what is happening.

Do something like this:

1. Release a statement that Classic marines will be supported till 8th ends for Loyalist chapters, but will not have any new releases or codex related updates.

2. Explain Classic marines in the fluff are extinct within 200 years of the end of the indominus crusade.

3. Explain that some numbers of every chapter fearful of the high risk surgery went chaotic. Make a pfd on playing recently gone to chaos classic marines, and how to slap 8 pointed stars on them.

4. Explain that Classic marines from this point forward will be 30K releases, or Chaos.

Wash your hands and let the Cryin begin.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:22:50


Post by: Daedalus81


 Backspacehacker wrote:
 Viridian wrote:
You can let GW define the hobby for you or you can define it yourself. Granted, going your own way will leave you out a lot of games and playing whatever edition you enjoy. Better then frustration and resentment but if you feel that strong about it maybe it is better if you put it behind you.


While I get that the problem is GW IS defining my hobby by force, and phasing out the units I came to love and actually like to paint and field. Dark angels, raven wing, deathwing, loved their lore their orginization, but now they are being phased out, and if the rino and or Razer back don't come back. GW is all but telling people like me, hey we don't want you for space marines anymore.


Nothing has been phased out at this point.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:23:19


Post by: BlaxicanX


Why do you need GW to phase them out completely in order for you to emotionally let them go? Are you a child with no agency?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:23:52


Post by: BrianDavion


 Galef wrote:
The longer it takes for them to do this, the more if makes me think "Old Marines" will still be around for some unti types.
For example, Bikes, Landspeeders, Devs and even Tacticals could be present in the rules well into the next few editions. Units like Scouts, regular Dreads and a handful of characters could be dropped.

But I'm starting to doubt that ALL old Marines are going to be dropped entirely

-


I've been saying for awhile now that GW'd be foolish to squat old marines when instead they can double dip.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:30:24


Post by: Glumy


Classic marines will be relocated to Horus Heresy entirely someday. Mk7 afaik was introduced in siege of Terra so all marks except 8 will be playable there and not out of place.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 20:45:06


Post by: Martel732


The rules have also been a middle finger to BA. But im supposed to be upset with primaris?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:01:30


Post by: Brainling


The doom gloom sucks. They aren't going to squat classic marines for a while, if ever. Why would they? They can produce the kits cheap. They are basically the back of the line in terms of needing or getting resculpts. They are a complete army, with a full range, that people still buy.

Primaris brought me back to the game, so not everyone hates them. I can understand why classic marine players would be put off by them but I think some of the responses are a bit over the top. No one is taking classic marines away, and they are getting a full update with the codex as well with all the new rules updates. You still have access to one of the most complete, model rich, armies in the game, with all the new buffs and rules.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:11:55


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


You can still play with Rogue Trader models, Terminators on 25mm Bases or 3rd Edition Dark Eldar even though the latter are the worst minis GW ever sold and every player should have replaced them in 5th Edition . Nobody will stop you. If you don't want to buy Primaris then simply don't and continue playing with your existing Marines. You'll have less problems in any GW or tournament than I have since about 60% of my CSM have third party Bits on them....


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:15:43


Post by: BoomWolf


GW cant get a break.

No new models-whaaa I want new toys
New primaris line-whaaa they are phasing out my old models
Keeping the old line active while releasing new stuff-whaaa why can't they just kill the old line.

No fething pleasing people.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:19:18


Post by: Vilehydra


 BoomWolf wrote:
GW cant get a break.

No new models-whaaa I want new toys
New primaris line-whaaa they are phasing out my old models
Keeping the old line active while releasing new stuff-whaaa why can't they just kill the old line.

No fething pleasing people.


I just want my rhinos to have firing ports back and drop pods to be useful


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:22:35


Post by: Arcanis161


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
You can still play with Rogue Trader models, Terminators on 25mm Bases or 3rd Edition Dark Eldar even though the latter are the worst minis GW ever sold and every player should have replaced them in 5th Edition . Nobody will stop you. If you don't want to buy Primaris then simply don't and continue playing with your existing Marines. You'll have less problems in any GW or tournament than I have since about 60% of my CSM have third party Bits on them....


I use my Rogue Trader Marines as Scouts. I doubt GW would tell me not to.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:37:53


Post by: Reemule


Brainling wrote:
They can produce the kits cheap. .



For now... How old is the Rhino molds? 15 years? At some points it isn't cheap.

But some people just prefer the alternative. Playing Classic Marines in 2020 like Sister players did in 2012-2018.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:50:23


Post by: Insectum7


Reemule wrote:
Brainling wrote:
They can produce the kits cheap. .



For now... How old is the Rhino molds? 15 years? At some points it isn't cheap.

But some people just prefer the alternative. Playing Classic Marines in 2020 like Sister players did in 2012-2018.


Sisters werent the most popular army of a flagship product for over two decades, with kit numbers that drown out other factions.

Rhino kit is 20 years old, I think. 1999 sounds right ish.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 21:55:24


Post by: Racerguy180


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
You can still play with Rogue Trader models, Terminators on 25mm Bases


I used this example last night @flgs. Said I can plop down a patrol of my RTB-01 squad, w Terminator Capt on 25mm & Chaplain.

So I'm not too terribly worried.

I'm still thinking there'll be 30k, 40k (pre rift) & current 42k.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 22:07:14


Post by: TinyLegions


Honestly, I have not kept up with things, as I am busy with other things right now, when I am not painting. Regardless of what "Gee Dubs" wants to do with their new edition, I will still have my Crimson Fists. They can't take them away, and I will figure out a way to use them one way or another. If it means that I use a different rule system than what is current, than so be it.

My experience from WFB tells me that I don't need GW to have fun with my miniatures. All that I need are willing players, and the rulebooks that we agree to use. I would agree that anyone who is stuck with playing at a GW shop has an obstacle or two to overcome in finding a new venue. But, this makes for an opportunity for people to start thinking outside of the box(store) and go on your own path. This is your hobby, don't let them dictate to you what you do with your plastic guys.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 22:14:07


Post by: bort


I doubt GW will ever officially kill old marines there’s too much money there. But unless they bother to go back and give the Rhino and Razorback the new vehicle powers and tacticals the equiv of all the new primaris strats (and we know they won’t) then nonveteran old marines are still effectively squatted for any competitive game sense.

From the new previews I’m finally feeling like I might be able to build a mech marine force that plays like I miss from 3rd-5th edition, which is cool. But it still means I’m retiring like 5000pts of old marines and rhino-based tank models to rebuy my list as primaris.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 22:20:00


Post by: SamusDrake


Doing away with classic marines and terminators - over night - would be a dangerous move for GW. They are the most recognisable characters they have ever produced and are their bread and butter.

Out of all the characters they own, these two require a slow and gradual move over to the primaris design.

That said, I personally enjoy having both! The Astartes are the sacred history of a chapter while the Primaris are adding to that history. I cannot imagine 40K without the Death Wing Terminators, and yet the primaris are a great excuse to establish a new chapter with a clean slate.

Leave it as it is!


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 22:45:06


Post by: Ishagu


They aren't killing anything.

Traditional Marines will be supported and gain improved rules so you can play them for years to come.

I'm making the switch to Primaris because they simply look better and will be getting exciting and varied releases. There are already more varied kits in the Primaris range than the entire classic line, with the cool armours and weapons for different roles.

It has been two years. People have had over 24 months to accept Primaris. At this point you're either on board or you're not. If you're not pick a new faction or stop complaining. I hate Tau - you don't see me mocking their kits, complaining about the lore or look and bringing them up all the time to bash.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 22:53:33


Post by: Tiberias


I do think that the primaris look better, as in they have better proportions, but I would have much more prefered to see the "old" marines models updated to also have better proportions, than having an entirely new thing.

Also am I the only one who is rather sad that. as it stands now, we will probably never see new or updated models for the classic indomitus terminator line?

I mean sure they want to push Primaris Marines and whatnot, but Primaris at least have the classic Power Armor (albeit with different helmet designs), but there is no adequate terminator equivalent in the Primaris model line in my opinion.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 23:40:29


Post by: robbienw


Stop worrying about it, its clear they aren't getting rid of them now.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 23:44:29


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


 Ishagu wrote:
It has been two years. People have had over 24 months to accept Primaris. At this point you're either on board or you're not. If you're not pick a new faction or stop complaining. I hate Tau - you don't see me mocking their kits, complaining about the lore or look and bringing them up all the time to bash.


I agree. I think waving this blood shirt is getting a little bit tiresome at this point. We Primaris marine fans get it, there are a lot of vocal people that aren't fans them and the reasons why are starting to become cliche. So I will try to contain my excitement on Primaris. I would take it as a kindness that you rein in your disgust for them a bit.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/09 23:52:31


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Tiberias wrote:
I do think that the primaris look better, as in they have better proportions, but I would have much more prefered to see the "old" marines models updated to also have better proportions, than having an entirely new thing.

Also am I the only one who is rather sad that. as it stands now, we will probably never see new or updated models for the classic indomitus terminator line?

I mean sure they want to push Primaris Marines and whatnot, but Primaris at least have the classic Power Armor (albeit with different helmet designs), but there is no adequate terminator equivalent in the Primaris model line in my opinion.


Well, Chaos got one, so there has been an update to the dog-head, head-in-the-chest, hunch-back, I-have-to-s***-but-can't terminator pattern since Primaris Marines, and unfortunately, only the posing received anything that might resemble improvement.

That said, I have no doubt that there will eventually be Primaris 2+ armor heavy infantry at some point in time, and hopefully they will actually look good.


Also, if they had just been an update to the tactical marine kit, then existing marine players wouldn't have bought them. This way, more people will buy more of them, and there isn't a problem with dealing with old model vs. new model sizing regulations. The only real downside is the fluff, which is very much a problem for the individual, not as a whole.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 00:10:39


Post by: Heafstaag


Classic marines will never die!

I doubt it would happen, but it would be crazy cool if old marines and primaris marines had another civil war.

The glorious old guard holding the line against the upstarts.

G.L.O.R.I.O.U.S.

Take heed brothers, follow Gabriel Seth! Take up arms and stand your ground. NOT ONE STEP BACK!

Space marines built the Imperium, and will tear it asunder rather that face extinction under Mars sponsered mutants!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10,000 years of martial glory will crush the upstarts!


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 00:12:22


Post by: John Prins


The reality is that GW isn't going to make any more non-Primaris Marines...but they're going to keep selling non-Primaris Marines for at least this edition and through the next - and maybe even the next! There are SO MANY regular marine kits, and there are still many, many unit types that Primaris have not rendered redundant.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 01:53:44


Post by: HoundsofDemos


It's likely that classic marines will be around for a long while. Pretty much any group picture still has a ton of classic models in it since it'll be years for the primaris range to have enough units to be a full army.

That said GW pretty much lost me as a marine purchaser by making the switch as I have no interest in them from a fluff perspective since I find them to be a force that fundamentally alters what I liked about the IOM and 40k in general. A sudden influx of innovation, hope and hover tech every were is pushing 40k into generic sci fi setting.

Until sisters drop my wallet is pretty much closed outside of maybe another land speeder or two.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 02:26:23


Post by: BrianDavion


Heafstaag wrote:
Classic marines will never die!

I doubt it would happen, but it would be crazy cool if old marines and primaris marines had another civil war.

The glorious old guard holding the line against the upstarts.

G.L.O.R.I.O.U.S.

Take heed brothers, follow Gabriel Seth! Take up arms and stand your ground. NOT ONE STEP BACK!

Space marines built the Imperium, and will tear it asunder rather that face extinction under Mars sponsered mutants!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10,000 years of martial glory will crush the upstarts!


or GW could tell an intreasting story


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 03:50:54


Post by: Da Butcha


At some point, maybe soon, maybe later, GW is gonna produce a series of units that all have a Primaris stat-line, and have (in one way or another) the wargear options of Classic Marines.
And they'll just tell you that you can use a Primaris model to represent the guy with the Bolter Thingy and the Chainsword, or use a Classic Marine to represent the guy with the Bolter Thingy and the Chainsword.

The Classic Marines won't go away. They will disappear as distinct options, but they will be there like Rogue Trader Orks in a modern Ork army.

That's my prediction, anyway.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 03:57:31


Post by: Heafstaag


BrianDavion wrote:
Heafstaag wrote:
Classic marines will never die!

I doubt it would happen, but it would be crazy cool if old marines and primaris marines had another civil war.

The glorious old guard holding the line against the upstarts.

G.L.O.R.I.O.U.S.

Take heed brothers, follow Gabriel Seth! Take up arms and stand your ground. NOT ONE STEP BACK!

Space marines built the Imperium, and will tear it asunder rather that face extinction under Mars sponsered mutants!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10,000 years of martial glory will crush the upstarts!


or GW could tell an intreasting story


Your math is faulty, as what I mentioned would be an interested story.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 04:04:46


Post by: BrianDavion


Heafstaag wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Heafstaag wrote:
Classic marines will never die!

I doubt it would happen, but it would be crazy cool if old marines and primaris marines had another civil war.

The glorious old guard holding the line against the upstarts.

G.L.O.R.I.O.U.S.

Take heed brothers, follow Gabriel Seth! Take up arms and stand your ground. NOT ONE STEP BACK!

Space marines built the Imperium, and will tear it asunder rather that face extinction under Mars sponsered mutants!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10,000 years of martial glory will crush the upstarts!


or GW could tell an intreasting story


Your math is faulty, as what I mentioned would be an interested story.


no I don't think it would the imperial civil war is over done


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 04:08:10


Post by: Insectum7


 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
It has been two years. People have had over 24 months to accept Primaris. At this point you're either on board or you're not. If you're not pick a new faction or stop complaining. I hate Tau - you don't see me mocking their kits, complaining about the lore or look and bringing them up all the time to bash.


I agree. I think waving this blood shirt is getting a little bit tiresome at this point. We Primaris marine fans get it, there are a lot of vocal people that aren't fans them and the reasons why are starting to become cliche. So I will try to contain my excitement on Primaris. I would take it as a kindness that you rein in your disgust for them a bit.


We wouldn't complain so much if they weren't pushed so hard as the replacements to our current collections. That's the rub.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Well, Chaos got one, so there has been an update to the dog-head, head-in-the-chest, hunch-back, I-have-to-s***-but-can't terminator pattern since Primaris Marines, and unfortunately, only the posing received anything that might resemble improvement.


Them's fightin words.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 04:12:08


Post by: The Riddle of Steel


It seems to me they will not create any more classic marine kits. It seems they are committed to a larger scale going forward. They only invented the “Primaris” story as a way to explain two scales of Marines existing simultaneously because they could not update the marine line overnight. It will take a few years but eventually the Primaris line will be complete enough to stop selling many classic kits, except those that are used for Horus Heresy.

-Rids


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 04:14:35


Post by: BrianDavion


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
It has been two years. People have had over 24 months to accept Primaris. At this point you're either on board or you're not. If you're not pick a new faction or stop complaining. I hate Tau - you don't see me mocking their kits, complaining about the lore or look and bringing them up all the time to bash.


I agree. I think waving this blood shirt is getting a little bit tiresome at this point. We Primaris marine fans get it, there are a lot of vocal people that aren't fans them and the reasons why are starting to become cliche. So I will try to contain my excitement on Primaris. I would take it as a kindness that you rein in your disgust for them a bit.


We wouldn't complain so much if they weren't pushed so hard as the replacements to our current collections. That's the rub.


except GW isn't psuhing them hard as replacements. they've repeatedly said these are reinforcements, and supplements etc the people pushing them as replacements, seem to be the player base, whom are convinced "GW IS GONNA STEAL MY OLD MARINES" meanwhile I've always maintained GW'll produce both because they'll be happy to double dip as long as old marines are selling


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 05:51:17


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
It has been two years. People have had over 24 months to accept Primaris. At this point you're either on board or you're not. If you're not pick a new faction or stop complaining. I hate Tau - you don't see me mocking their kits, complaining about the lore or look and bringing them up all the time to bash.


I agree. I think waving this blood shirt is getting a little bit tiresome at this point. We Primaris marine fans get it, there are a lot of vocal people that aren't fans them and the reasons why are starting to become cliche. So I will try to contain my excitement on Primaris. I would take it as a kindness that you rein in your disgust for them a bit.


We wouldn't complain so much if they weren't pushed so hard as the replacements to our current collections. That's the rub.


except GW isn't psuhing them hard as replacements. they've repeatedly said these are reinforcements, and supplements etc the people pushing them as replacements, seem to be the player base, whom are convinced "GW IS GONNA STEAL MY OLD MARINES" meanwhile I've always maintained GW'll produce both because they'll be happy to double dip as long as old marines are selling

I hope you're right, however, those Primaris models are features suuuuper heavily in the majority of the GW pics, as far as I can tell. And from what I've heard about the fluff, normal marines may not be being made any more. If someone can correct me on this point, I'd definitely welcome it. But from my understanding at the moment, fiction-wise Primaris are literally the replacements.

And they've already claimed my beloved Calgar.

I look forward to seeing the language around it in the new codex.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 06:23:13


Post by: BrianDavion


well I *DO* think everything new will be Primaris and they have become the new marine posterboy. just I don't see them ditching the old marine kits anytime soon, although older kits like rhinos etc I'd be a little leery of, but if GW's smart the new SOB rhinos will make the sisters bling optional so that even if GW decides to discontinue the current rhino it'll still be accessable


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 06:44:44


Post by: SeanDrake


Primaris exist because someone after the raging dumpster fire that was the chs fiasco sat with the board and patiently explained the difference between copyright and designright.

Once the rocking,screaming and cold sweats stopped minions were sent to summon the design studio and commands were given. The marineus biggus defendus from ye olde design rights was born.

The only thing that would kill the real marine line is someone testing there knowledge of designrights in relation to marines.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 09:35:48


Post by: Nazrak


Nah, I like the Proper Marines; can't stand the Primaris stuff. Seem like a lot of the new rules benefit the regular lads as much as the Primaris, so I'm pretty pleased with that.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 09:45:09


Post by: Mmmpi


Why would GW get rid of the obviously superior Space Marine Classic?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 10:10:56


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Backspacehacker wrote:To answer your question what will stop you, GW, GW will stop you. If you play in their stores or events they will.

To give you an example as to the hate, I'll try to give you an example. Imagine you had a classic car, just think of a classic car you like and you put in a lot of time, money, passion, and energy into it. And you always would take it to the biggest car show that was in reasonable distance to you. Everyone liked having you there, it was a good time. Then, one day, for no real reason, the car show you took your car to, one day said, hey every that came out after this year is not considered a classic anymore by us and can't be entered into the show, you can still bring it down, but it's not officially part of the show. And your classic car was at the cut off and can't enter. So now that thing you put so much time energy and money into is no longer valid at the show you always loved entering and had been a part of for years.

Your gonna feel kinda left out, and upset because they just instantly turned their back on you. Sure you can buy a new car that fits their guide lines but it's not the classic care you like, so really your just buying the new classic car to be able to enter the show with any car not the one you like.

That's what it feels like to be a space marines player who used to play classic marines.
Okay, genuinely curious - have you EVER been told "you can't play old Marines" at a GW store? Because while GW are certainly making many new Primaris models, they've never stopped anyone playing and using their old models as far as I've seen.

Your analogy works better as:
You have a car, which you take to shows, events, work and repair it lovingly, etc etc
The company who make the car release a new model. You can still enter your car into the show like you always used to, you can still drive it around, but there's other new cars around. Turns out it's a really popular new car, and the company are very proud of it, but that doesn't stop you still entering and being proud of your own.

They still sell the old car too!

Honestly, I don't get the Primaris fear. GW haven't done anything with the old Marines they haven't done with any other pre-8th army. They've just released new models which run parallel to the old Marines. While I disagree with people's arguments of "they look bad!", that's at least understandable as opinion. The arguments of "my old marines are being killed off" is simply unfounded, especially with the latest rules.

Heafstaag wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Heafstaag wrote:
Classic marines will never die!

I doubt it would happen, but it would be crazy cool if old marines and primaris marines had another civil war.

The glorious old guard holding the line against the upstarts.

G.L.O.R.I.O.U.S.

Take heed brothers, follow Gabriel Seth! Take up arms and stand your ground. NOT ONE STEP BACK!

Space marines built the Imperium, and will tear it asunder rather that face extinction under Mars sponsered mutants!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10,000 years of martial glory will crush the upstarts!


or GW could tell an intreasting story


Your math is faulty, as what I mentioned would be an interested story.
I'll be honest, it's really not that interesting. The whole "omg old army rebels against the new army" is pretty dull, in my eyes - hell, we've already had a similar event already happen in 40k itself (the Horus Heresy started because Horus was afraid that he and his army would be replaced and forgotten).

I think it was way more interesting and non-standard if the Primaris were actually respected and the Imperium wasn't just being grimdumb.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 10:17:17


Post by: evil_kiwi_60


So you’re angry because you’re anxious that they’re going to get rid of the classic space marine line but you’re angry because they haven’t gotten rid of the classic space marine line. That makes perfect sense.

Or are you just upset that you didn’t get to have an I told you so moment after two years of claiming that there was going to be a non-primaries purge?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 12:05:33


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
balmong7 wrote:
They already confirmed on the facebook page that the rhino is just a reboxing.

I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate. Maybe its because I'm just so new to the hobby. but I genuinely didn't even realize that primaris were different from regular marines for the first couple months I was playing (I don't collect marines myself. so I just them in my opponents lists).

People are always going on about how regular marines are going to get squatted. But like, what will stop you from just using the old models as "counts as" primaris at that point? whats stopping you now?

It's understandable a new player wouldn't understand because you've not seen an old marine army compared to a Primaris ine. With the old marine armies, there was a ton of different units, loadouts and abilities, so chapters easily stood apart from one another. White scars had a ton of bikes and landspeeders. Blood Angels had a ton of jetpacks and heroes. Space Wolves got flanderized with the wolf wolf of the wolf but they had an identity. Take a look at an entirely Primaris marine army on the other hand. They're almost all identical, regardless of chapter. Wanna play white scars? Cool, you get to walk or ride in a Repulsor/hover rhino or be some fat inceptors with no melee. Wanna be blood angels? Same thing, hope you like walking or hitching a ride on a hovercraft or don't mind being a fat assault marine with no melee. Essentially it's the loadouts mainly. Old marines have a stupid amount of customization and wargear options (likely why GW wants to phase them out). Yes, I can proxy a Bolter marine as an intercessor, but what about assault marines? They're not dual wielding heavy bolters. What about bikes? They don't have a Primaris equivalent? What about devestators, who go from like 8 different weapons down to 3 different versions of plasma. A massive chunk of an okdmarines collection has no modern equivalent. Not to mention they're the largest playerbases by far, their line has the least excuse to be retired.

In addition, many of the classic marine units that are unique to codexes are not possible in a Primaris line. Death Company, Wulven, Dark Angels Deathwing and Ravenwing, space wolf "wolves", all are only possible due to geneseed mutations that have been removed due to the primaris being so perfect and pure. Gabriel Seth of the Flesh tearers explains it perfectly in the book Devestation of Baal, "these aren't blood Angels, they're Ultramarines in red paint. Without the flaw what makes them any different than any other marine out there?" Paraphrase of course. So all the stuff that makes the chapters unique, the wolf wolf of the wolf wolf Space Wolves get, the tragic vampire Noble Savage line blood Angels get, the dark brooding secrets of the Dark Angels, you get the idea. None of those are really possible with Primaris. Any geneseed mutations is fixed, any tragic backstory or history is ruined because the primaris don't care, they didn't do it. It basically kills a lot of what little justification each marine codex has for being it's own book. Heck even the dreads show GW either intentionally or unintentionally squatting the lore, with the new dreads burning their pilots out quickly, meaning other than old marines the primaris have no way to retain their most ancient warriors.

Take the new White Scars codex for example. Their hero is known for being on a bike, but Primaris don't have any bikes whatsoever. So they stuck him on foot, which is horribly against what he should be doing. Hell the entire Primaris line is an affront to the white scars fighting style. They've got no bikes, their assault marine equivalent are fat and slow with no melee options, and for the most part Primaris have no truly good melee units whatsoever. It's a line that's essentially just a walking gunline with some hover tanks forced into a chapter that hates that style of fighting. Remember that Primaris Space Wolf starter box from a while back? The only model that looked even remotely wolfy was the unique character, everything else was just painted a different shade of blue and called it a day.

Same goes for blood Angels, all the stuff they like to do they can't do with Primaris. Assault marines? Nope. Death company? Nope. Jump pack characters being badasses? Don't even get jetpacks on characters. Fast vehicles? Nah, have fun with a Repulsor.

So yeah I'm not even really a marine player but I get why they hate Primaris. The line is basically a giant middle finger mechanically, aesthetically, and lore wise to the established lore of most of the chapters. When characters in the books are outright calling Primaris generic replacements that lack the soul of what their chapter is meant to be, it's a problem. It reeks of a marketing team going "the classic marine isn't marketable in today's climate. We need a squeeky clean new version to replace them as the face".


Of course this is all talking about 5E+ armies, when they had to push more and more new units out to justify the codex's being separate. Back in the old "Angels of Death" 2E days you didn't really have all that much different aside from one to three more units! I remember the arguments well wondering why Space Marines needed so many Codex's and could be consolidated back into one (Black Templars being the first stuck back into the main codex for example)

Of course I'm wondering what their endgoal with the replacements are in general. Since it seems like they want to replace things but don't feel the need to replace the primary line (No Primaris Bikers yet?)


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 12:13:02


Post by: ccs


 Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess


Well that's a short sighted dumbass approach.
Just because you're unhappy doesn't mean that I should lose my oldschool SM armies.

You can drop your old marine army (or the entire hobby), ignore all things Primaris, & solve your problem any time you like. Yesterday, today, tomorrow.... Go ahead, do it.
If you're unhappy with the current direction of the SM but still like the game in general? Change armies & take joy in every victory you achieve over the increasing Primaris abomination.
If you're really unhappy? As in dropping the hobby unhappy? There's the door. Get out.
But whatever you do, know that it won't affect GWs current & future Primaris plans.

And the sooner you get your wish of GW dropping the old marines so that you can assuage your conscious or whatever concerning dropping the army/hobby? Then the sooner {I} get screwed over. Because I too play SM armies, have no interest in most things Primaris (I dislike most of the models), but regardless of the state of their rules I intend to use my toys as long as possible.

Look, you're unhappy now. At some point in the future, odds are that I will be as well. But since you want me to be unhappy sooner rather than later? **&&% you.




Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 12:22:44


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


I have a lot of old marines and I love them. TBH if GW says old marines are out makes it easy, cause same base size all old marines become primaris by default (may have to convert some weapons etc). I have converted all my old marines to Deathwatch nearly by now and made sure to base them on 32's that has a lot of basing stuff so they are all same height as primaris if put side by side. The only thing will be weapons (I have hundreds with many different combos, I'm sure some will be viable if they nerf batted it).

Think about it, if they got rid of normal SM, they automatically become primaris if some1 wants to use them as such. cause look almost the same just primaris a bit bigger (hence basing)...they cant really get rid of norm marines until way in the future cause people just proxy them. Only difference is vehicles etc. All models still there but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3mDlarDdcM

See that aggressors are wound 3 and centurions are wound 4 now, makes a difference for marines etc off first watch

Granted I have a big DW primaris force as well, ready for either way


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 13:08:23


Post by: Crimson


 Mmmpi wrote:
Why would GW get rid of the obviously superior Space Marine Classic?



These guys? They stopped selling them decades ago.



Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 13:19:14


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


 Crimson wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
Why would GW get rid of the obviously superior Space Marine Classic?



These guys? They stopped selling them decades ago.



Those models should be based round the edge with goblin green, what is this heresy


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 13:42:39


Post by: Crimson


Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Those models should be based round the edge with goblin green, what is this heresy

That came later. The pic is from the Rogue Trader rulebook, and models there have either black or brown base trims.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 13:53:37


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


 Crimson wrote:
Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Those models should be based round the edge with goblin green, what is this heresy

That came later. The pic is from the Rogue Trader rulebook, and models there have either black or brown base trims.


and? all need that 90's flare... j/k (I paint all my childhood models, eg 80's early 90's goblin green or equiv for fun))))


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 15:21:03


Post by: kryczek


Once the designer said it was a re-design of the marine range we started phasing out our oldstartes. Still have my BA specific stuff but other than that they are pretty much gone from my group. I quite like the models myself so it's not a problem for me.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 15:36:20


Post by: Spectral Ceramite


kryczek wrote:
Once the designer said it was a re-design of the marine range we started phasing out our oldstartes. Still have my BA specific stuff but other than that they are pretty much gone from my group. I quite like the models myself so it's not a problem for me.


you really care on designer or artist etc etc, its an era, ye the artists definded the era, but no1 really cares.... is goblin green era...us guys with multiple uni degrees and real jobs in that era would laugh but is the spawn of greatness


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 16:05:44


Post by: The Newman


Spectral Ceramite wrote:
I have a lot of old marines and I love them. TBH if GW says old marines are out makes it easy, cause same base size all old marines become primaris by default (may have to convert some weapons etc). I have converted all my old marines to Deathwatch nearly by now and made sure to base them on 32's that has a lot of basing stuff so they are all same height as primaris if put side by side. The only thing will be weapons (I have hundreds with many different combos, I'm sure some will be viable if they nerf batted it).

Think about it, if they got rid of normal SM, they automatically become primaris if some1 wants to use them as such. cause look almost the same just primaris a bit bigger (hence basing)...they cant really get rid of norm marines until way in the future cause people just proxy them. Only difference is vehicles etc. All models still there but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3mDlarDdcM

See that aggressors are wound 3 and centurions are wound 4 now, makes a difference for marines etc off first watch

Granted I have a big DW primaris force as well, ready for either way


That guy clearly isn't reading the book very closely considering how many things he got wrong just talking. I have to watch it on a bigger screen to look more closely for unit/weapon changes since I don't trust him to have read properly.

If he's reading it right all the existing warlord traits stayed the same and the Phobos ones got massively nerfed if they really did all get changed to specify Phobos units only. Precepts of Deceit, Master of the Vanguard, and Priority Target do not specify that keyword in the Shadowspear book.

Master of the Chapter dropped to 2 CP though, so that's good.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 16:15:57


Post by: ScarVet101


It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.

Anyway, I doubt the units themselves will be dropped but give it a few years and we'll see the key units upgraded to Primarus.

Following the fluff, either Assault or Devastators would get a Primarus version as these are the squads newly prompted Scouts went to (depending on chapter) before moving onto the other type.

Tactical squads are the shown as the experienced battle brothers so they would be the last to be replaced as the newer recruits move through the ranks.

None of the tanks need updating in terms of rules other then saying one primarus = one old marine and let them use Rhinos, Razorbacks and Land Raiders.

Old models still get used but the full range now as one version of marines.

In regards to Scouts, their smaller size can just show that they're still growing.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 16:50:20


Post by: Grimtuff


ScarVet101 wrote:
It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.


False analogy is false. DG didn’t muscle in out of nowhere, have a completely different aesthetic to what came before and were not ultimate replacements for CSM.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 16:59:33


Post by: Sunny Side Up


 Grimtuff wrote:
ScarVet101 wrote:
It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.


False analogy is false. DG didn’t muscle in out of nowhere, have a completely different aesthetic to what came before and were not ultimate replacements for CSM.


Except Primaris didn’t replace old Marines. For some reason, the baseless fearmongering that Marines would get squatted has now morphed into weird masochistic wishlisting they should get squatted just to spite hobbyists that still like them?

This thread is strange. Don’t like old-Marines, don’t buy them! Don’t like Primaris? Don’t buy them!



Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 17:11:25


Post by: The Newman


Confirmed on a larger screen (baring resolution issues):

Intercessor Autobolters up to Assault 3.
Addition of Hand Flamer to Intercessor Serg options.
Aggressors at W3.
Centurions at W4.
Inceptors at W3.
Inceptor Bolt Carbide option on the Eliminator serg is 24" assault 1 s4 ap 1 d2.
LR Redeemer Flamestorm Cannons jumped to 12"
The Assault Bolter appears to have dropped in points. Might be an 8.
The Hurricane Bolter is still 10 sodding points.
Autobolter looks to still be 1 point.
Pretty sure Tac marines did actually drop to 12.

And most of the Indominus Crusade detachment looks to have just been added to the base strats.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 17:41:41


Post by: robbienw


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
It has been two years. People have had over 24 months to accept Primaris. At this point you're either on board or you're not. If you're not pick a new faction or stop complaining. I hate Tau - you don't see me mocking their kits, complaining about the lore or look and bringing them up all the time to bash.


I agree. I think waving this blood shirt is getting a little bit tiresome at this point. We Primaris marine fans get it, there are a lot of vocal people that aren't fans them and the reasons why are starting to become cliche. So I will try to contain my excitement on Primaris. I would take it as a kindness that you rein in your disgust for them a bit.


We wouldn't complain so much if they weren't pushed so hard as the replacements to our current collections. That's the rub.


except GW isn't psuhing them hard as replacements. they've repeatedly said these are reinforcements, and supplements etc the people pushing them as replacements, seem to be the player base, whom are convinced "GW IS GONNA STEAL MY OLD MARINES" meanwhile I've always maintained GW'll produce both because they'll be happy to double dip as long as old marines are selling

I hope you're right, however, those Primaris models are features suuuuper heavily in the majority of the GW pics, as far as I can tell. And from what I've heard about the fluff, normal marines may not be being made any more. If someone can correct me on this point, I'd definitely welcome it.


Well firstly GW stated in the primaris faq that primaris marines aren't replacements but are rather an addition.

Secondly the BA codex stated that they are making normal marines alongside primaris.

They also stated in the 500 stores celebration article:

"Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines"

So currently its a fluff fact new classic marines are still being made in universe.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 18:11:55


Post by: Insectum7


^Great! Thanks for that.

Looking forward to the codex as it will probably expand on what's going on.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 18:53:29


Post by: PenitentJake


The upgrading of beloved characters does remove units from the old marine category, so to that extent, players who favour old marines genuinely are losing something.

But I do believe that old marine units will continue to get attention and support once they burn out Primaris releases. There are a lot of factors to eighth that suggest to me that it really is GW's intention to stay in one edition long enough to really expand and improve the range.

The point about primaris lacking the identities of old marines is very valid. But that's why I love the detachment system so much more than the old force organization charts. Primaris are deployed as detachments to reinforce existing marine chapters who have their centuries old traditions intact.

It gives you that layer of separation that might let you feel that the new isn't contaminating the old, with the exception of the characters how are crossing over. Try to thing of them as being the ones who are there to train primaris squads in the traditions of the chapter.

Anyway, I hope it works out; I don't collect marines, and I only have the kill teams that came in sets like Tooth and Claw and Spacehulk. I think it would be a real shame to lose all that material.




Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 19:09:53


Post by: Grimtuff


Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ScarVet101 wrote:
It's funny how the Death Guard range didn't have Chaos players complaining so much.


False analogy is false. DG didn’t muscle in out of nowhere, have a completely different aesthetic to what came before and were not ultimate replacements for CSM.


Except Primaris didn’t replace old Marines. For some reason, the baseless fearmongering that Marines would get squatted has now morphed into weird masochistic wishlisting they should get squatted just to spite hobbyists that still like them?

This thread is strange. Don’t like old-Marines, don’t buy them! Don’t like Primaris? Don’t buy them!



Did you miss the word “ultimate”, you know what that means in that context, right? The writing is on the wall that the end goal of all of this is to replace the current range with Primaris. Not tomorrow. Maybe not 5 years from now, but it will happen. If you don’t see that then you might need a hand getting out of that Egyptian river you’ve fallen in.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 19:17:11


Post by: pelicaniforce



Death Company, Wulven, Dark Angels Deathwing and Ravenwing, space wolf "wolves", all are only possible due to geneseed mutations that have been removed due to the primaris being so perfect and pure. Gabriel Seth of the Flesh tearers explains it perfectly in the book Devestation of Baal, "these aren't blood Angels, they're Ultramarines in red paint. Without the flaw what makes them any different than any other marine out there?" Paraphrase of course. So all the stuff that makes the chapters unique, the wolf wolf of the wolf wolf Space Wolves get, the tragic vampire Noble Savage line blood Angels get, the dark brooding secrets of the Dark Angels, you get the idea. None of those are really possible with Primaris. Any geneseed mutations is fixed, any tragic backstory or history is ruined because the primaris don't care, they didn't do it. It basically kills a lot of what little justification each marine codex has for being it's own book. Heck even the dreads show GW either intentionally or unintentionally squatting the lore, with the new dreads burning their pilots out quickly, meaning other than old marines the primaris have no way to retain their most ancient warriors.


I’m really pleased with this. I’ve played blood angels, and I made sure to play them as ostensibly normal marines with a secret and strange rituals. When the vanguard assault marine models first came out someone did some amazing space wolves, totally unconverted. To me it’s a lot more immersive and characterful this way. Vanilla marines got jump vets when they had previously been BA exclusive, but I think that just means they should have background and painting sections where those are mainly BA units, much like white scars and BT have or don’t have certain units, or iron hands and imperial fists do or don’t have them.


The whole Primaris fluff and the 180 heel turn in fluff to justify their existance reeks of a marketing lead decision making instead of one made from a creative standpoint.


While it is an excuse for the market-demanded rescaling of marines, which is vaguely creative, this is definitely not an exercise in creativity, you’re right. This is a product refinement and I don’t see any reason not to use third party, recasting, pirating, homegrown games, etc. It’s not like we’re aupporting an artistic endeavor, once maybe but now the studio output is from people who’ve themselves been marketed to.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 21:39:54


Post by: Sunny Side Up


 Grimtuff wrote:

Did you miss the word “ultimate”, you know what that means in that context, right? The writing is on the wall that the end goal of all of this is to replace the current range with Primaris. Not tomorrow. Maybe not 5 years from now, but it will happen. If you don’t see that then you might need a hand getting out of that Egyptian river you’ve fallen in.
#

Except it's not gonna be 5 years, nor 10 years, nor anywhere on any realistic planning horizon current laid out in Nottingham. Unless GW as a company goes bust or 40K as a game gets dumped, they'll stay.

Do normal plastic Marines sell better than finecast Shining Spears or Dark Reapers sculpts from the early 90s, better than Pewter Sisters of Battle or similar miniatures aged 20+ years? They sure as hell do, and as long as they sell, they'll remain in the catalogue. If GW as a company survives, you'll be able Tac Marines.

Arguably, it might well have been the main reason to not make Primaris an aesthetic-only replacement for normal Marines in the way, say, new Dark Eldar replaced the ancient sculpts or whatever, because GW doesn't wanna squat a profitable miniature range.

Old-Marines might no longer be the No. 1 seller for GW 10 years from now, but they'll probably still outsell AoS Beastmen or Necrons or random Blood Bowl teams, and as long as they do, they'll stay.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 21:57:25


Post by: BoomWolf


 Grimtuff wrote:
Maybe not 5 years from now, but it will happen.


Dude...
in 5 years SO much changes. ffs 5 years ago 7th came out. the game change DRASTICALLY in 5 years.

And even your doomsaying is "not in 5 years".
So when? 10 years from now? 15? 20?

5 years ago DG havocs, raptors and bikers were a thing, they aren't now.
5 years ago admech were not an army. neither were GSC or IK.
4 years ago khorne deamonkin were an army that existed, 2 years ago they stopped being.
6 years ago you could build a legal army that had both space marines and crisis suits in it. now you can't.


The game freaking changes. things that were stop being and things that wren't come into existence.
Complaining that something that was around for freaking 25 years already MIGHT stop being a thing 10 years from now isn't idiotic, its outright mental.


How freaking annoying can marine boys be that they get all the love and attention, and then complain about it.



And then some moron comes with the "sure, they don't actually remove them, but they stop supporting them and releasing new stuff for them."
And I want to punch the fool, because the "stop support" classic marines get is still more than entire factions have. heck, if you split classic marines and primaris to two codcies after the new release wave-they would EACH be bigger than the entire necron race. before taking into account BA,DA,SW,GK and DW making more even more marines.

I wish primaris were not a thing, I really do. but not because the change is bad, primaris are just better than classic marines.
Because I am SICK AND TIRED OF MARINES. there are too much, FAR too much. the game more of everything that ISNT marines. the only marines needing expansion are the god-spesific chaos armies, two of them currently still missing and the other two woefully underdeveloped.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 23:12:30


Post by: Daedalus81


Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 23:13:04


Post by: BrianDavion


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.


yeah this was a across the board boost.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 23:47:34


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 23:48:51


Post by: Daedalus81


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?


Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/10 23:55:13


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?


Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.


Daaaaamn. That's really really powerful.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/11 00:31:35


Post by: fraser1191


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?


Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.


Daaaaamn. That's really really powerful.


Turn 2 UM drop pod full of grav devastators


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/11 00:34:16


Post by: BrianDavion


 fraser1191 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Grav weapons just got a significant boost - I don't see those on Primaris. Old marines are here for quite a while.

Oh? Whats the Grav boost?


Grav gun -2
Grav cannon -8

Stratagem to reroll wound and damage with Grav Cannon.


Daaaaamn. That's really really powerful.


Turn 2 UM drop pod full of grav devastators


why turn 2? Drop pods can come in turn 1 now


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/11 00:35:08


Post by: Daedalus81


BrianDavion wrote:

why turn 2? Drop pods can come in turn 1 now


For the UM doctrine to ignore move penalties. There is a stratagem to change doctrines, but I haven't seen the wording yet. Supposedly it only goes in reverse.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/11 03:30:32


Post by: Wyldhunt


I love the new primaris rules and models, BUT their fluff and the seeming mechanical emphasis on them kind of leaves old marines in a weird place.

If I could just use my old marines as primaris, I'd be pretty content, but the fact that they still have their own distinct rules makes that confusing. If they were to kill old marines, I'd have a bunch of 2A 2W marines with AP-1 bolters, and I'd be pretty happy about it.

As-is, I'm reluctant to mix primaris and old marines together for fluff and modeling reasons. I kind of wish Guilliman had just shipped out a new mark of snazzy "primaris brand armor" to give GW an excuse to update the models without introducing some of the fluff wonkyness of introducing better-than-normal marines.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/11 04:01:06


Post by: ERJAK


 Vankraken wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I don't see a problem as it stands. There's someone on here that plays normal marines adamantly. Plus this new codex is breathing life into everything not just Primaris marines. If Primaris is what's driving you to drop an entire hobby then I don't think this is the hobby for you


I personally dislike Primaris because of the anti consumer business practices that are being used to force people to buy all new products. The whole Primaris fluff and the 180 heel turn in fluff to justify their existance reeks of a marketing lead decision making instead of one made from a creative standpoint. It's honestly somewhat insulting to do the whole "love it or leave it" garbage when people have been invested in the hobby for years and for GW to make major changes that invalidate their efforts. Given the time + money investment that is required for 40k, it's fairly reasonable for people to be unhappy with the changes and voice their displeasure instead of just shoving thousands of dollars + hours of effort into a box and walking away.

Personally I stopped buying from GW because of the paper thin and shallow rule set of 8th more than anything to do with Primaris. I won't buy Primaris because of what it stands for but if the game was actually good (my subjective opinion) then I would continue to buy product lines such as Orks, Tau, Classic Marines, etc.


The implementation of Primaris marines haven't been anti-consumer AT ALL. They introduced new models that are better, sure, but they're only better in terms of sculpt and proportion. Their usefulness in game has not been particularly strong(they're actually pretty crap in game and were WORSE at launch) they haven't discontinued support for any models they produce and the new codex is a massive breath of life for TONS of the older sculpts, especially things like bike units.

Yes, they do eventually intend to phase out oldmarines but they're doing so in a way that isn't actually negatively impacting them or the people who use them(much) and in 10 years when they're fully gone, you'll still be able to use the models as counts as versions of the stuff that's coming out now. The only way you could see this singular particular thing GW is doing as anti-consumer is if you 100% refuse to acknowledge the fact that Primaris marines and oldmarines are part of the SAME ARMY.

GW does a bunch of shady gak but the Primaris marine implementation has gone out of its way to not screw players over. I'm sorry you won't see any more releases of the old chicken legged abominations, but MARINES will be coming out forever.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/11 04:37:26


Post by: AngryAngel80


I'll say I just played a Deathwatch game earlier tonight, to of therm and had some old and new marines. I have to say, was a pleasant experience to be sure. If they keep up with rules and such for old marines with the new stuff I'll be a happy space man, if they think I'm replacing my huge space wolf, Dark Angel and vanilla marine force with primaris though, they'd just be making sure i never buy those books at a certain point.

I only add primairs to my Deathwatch and such it will remain. My old armies will be new guy pure, only oldies.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/11 04:44:46


Post by: HoundsofDemos


The new space marine codex pretty much puts to bed for a long while that classic marines are going away. They aren't going to get any new kits in their scale but between the point cuts, new strats, and improved chapter traits it's clear GW is throwing a bone to the originals.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 14:58:09


Post by: The Newman


HoundsofDemos wrote:
The new space marine codex pretty much puts to bed for a long while that classic marines are going away. They aren't going to get any new kits in their scale but between the point cuts, new strats, and improved chapter traits it's clear GW is throwing a bone to the originals.

I was just thinking this same thing. If GW's plan is to soft-squat minimarines by putting out Primaris units that do their job better, they picked a pretty strange way to go about doing it.

"Hey, you know that Vindicator tank you were complaining about? Would it help if we doubled it's shot output against hard targets?"

"Hey, you know that artillery tank that doesn't really compare very well to the Guard tanks and had a strat that required a Land Speeder to stand in a bad spot? Would it help if we replaced that bad strat with one that just lets you double-tap?"

"Hey, you know how an Impulsor has just enough transport capacity for a min Aggressor squad and Assault Vehicle would be really obnoxious with them? Would it help things look less unbalanced if the Impulsor couldn't carry Aggressors and we added a strat that replicates Assault Vehicle but only for transports with tracks so Aggressors don't break the combo?

"Hey, would another price cut for basic Marines help? What if we threw a big price cut and a new strat for Grav weapons on top of that?"

"Hey, would it help if the Drop Pod that can only carry minimarines could break the normal rule forbidding DS before turn 2?"

There's a lot of stuff in there that benefits minimarines more than Primaris.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 15:04:51


Post by: Bharring


This book definitely suggests a change in direction. CA felt like they made their hate for RealMarines clear. This book seems to include what CA should have, in that regard.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 15:05:47


Post by: Martel732


I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 15:47:05


Post by: Nazrak


Martel732 wrote:
I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.

Yeah but then, you've been complaining about Marines non-stop for basically five years, minimum, so I think there's a pretty strong possibility that there's literally no pleasing you.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 15:48:34


Post by: Martel732


Are you denying that primaris are better vs mortals on the average?

Sounds about right. BA got gak canned in 6th, and GW has never fixed them.

please do not use compound swear words that circumvent the filter -ingtaer.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 15:48:47


Post by: Nazrak


I haven't felt very enthused about my Classic Marines army project since CA didn't really make any changes to them, but now I'm deffo hyped – seems like the various changes will make them feel a lot more like they ought to in-game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Are you denying that primaris are better vs mortals on the average?

No, but they're more points and, if it weren't for this, you'd be finding fault with something else, so excuse me if I'm taking your complaints with a pinch of salt.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 16:08:36


Post by: Stormonu


The Newman wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
The new space marine codex pretty much puts to bed for a long while that classic marines are going away. They aren't going to get any new kits in their scale but between the point cuts, new strats, and improved chapter traits it's clear GW is throwing a bone to the originals.

I was just thinking this same thing. If GW's plan is to soft-squat minimarines by putting out Primaris units that do their job better, they picked a pretty strange way to go about doing it.

"Hey, you know that Vindicator tank you were complaining about? Would it help if we doubled it's shot output against hard targets?"

"Hey, you know that artillery tank that doesn't really compare very well to the Guard tanks and had a strat that required a Land Speeder to stand in a bad spot? Would it help if we replaced that bad strat with one that just lets you double-tap?"

"Hey, you know how an Impulsor has just enough transport capacity for a min Aggressor squad and Assault Vehicle would be really obnoxious with them? Would it help things look less unbalanced if the Impulsor couldn't carry Aggressors and we added a strat that replicates Assault Vehicle but only for transports with tracks so Aggressors don't break the combo?

"Hey, would another price cut for basic Marines help? What if we threw a big price cut and a new strat for Grav weapons on top of that?"

"Hey, would it help if the Drop Pod that can only carry minimarines could break the normal rule forbidding DS before turn 2?"

There's a lot of stuff in there that benefits minimarines more than Primaris.


Nothing strange about it. Best way for GW to clear outstanding stock is to give it great rules, but not restock the old stuff when it runs out. But maybe I’m giving GW too much credit for thinking ahead.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 16:11:09


Post by: The_Real_Chris


balmong7 wrote:
I genuinely don't understand the primaris hate.


I like some of the fluff. especially the sort of Empire the Imperium is. And the history of it being this way due to the big space marine civil war. Mixed into that was a decaying tech base and fundamentally the same sorts of marines being around 'today' as 9,000 years ago.

A massive tech upgrade and re-engineering buff, that furthermore goes against what was considered sacred from the _God_ Emperor is very incongruous. Its jarring set against what 40k always was, and its jarring not for a great fluff reason, but to re-sell models. And even if you want to do that, and that's fine, get rid of the silly stuff like normal marines can't use their vehicles or primaris can't fit inside land Raiders etc. as that further damages the suspension of disbelief.

Plus the general scale jump for humans (check out Necro people sizes and lots of the AoS stuff) isn't helping...


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 16:12:17


Post by: Martel732


Even gods fade in the face of necessity.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 16:38:13


Post by: Xenomancers


Primaris hate is perfectly understandable. Primaris makes people feel like they wasted money on non primaris stuff. GW doesn't care because you will end up buying primaris or something else or you probably weren't going to buy much anyways. You should write angry letters to GW. I'm sure they will listen to your cries if you don't like primaris.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 16:55:00


Post by: frozenwastes


Under the old CEO and GW never talking to their customers or offering decent deals like start collecting, regular GW was in decline. With 40k 6th and 7th having rules bloat issues, and prices between regular GW and Forgeworld closing, 30k became super popular.

When the new CEO wanted to right the ship, they didn't know what would work so they tried everything. They started talking to their customers again, doing marketing, using the internet and then they took what they thought was working about 30k and applied it to 40k. Primarchs return, new single weapon marine squads like in 30k.

I'm of the belief that they didn't need to push 30k stuff into 40k. That the change in business practicies would have been enough. The Primaris kits could have simply been up scaled marines and a new edition with a new codex could have meant that all marines just become 2 wounds and 2 attacks. The new kits are bigger, you can use your old marines if you want. Primaris sized Tactical, Assault and Devestator kits along with some characters at launch.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 17:44:59


Post by: Racerguy180


Nazrak wrote:I haven't felt very enthused about my Classic Marines army project since CA didn't really make any changes to them, but now I'm deffo hyped – seems like the various changes will make them feel a lot more like they ought to in-game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Are you denying that primaris are better vs mortals on the average?

No, but they're more points and, if it weren't for this, you'd be finding fault with something else, so excuse me if I'm taking your complaints with a mountain of salt.


Fixed it for you.

It's amazing, it's like GW listened to the customer base. Astartes aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm glad that Astartes got the boonstick. Can't wait to try out the new Salamanders rules alongside the doctrines.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 17:56:57


Post by: LeperColony


 Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess


Primaris Marines are the stupidest thing I've heard in 40k since the Blood Angel/Necron bromance. I've had a lot of fun with 40k over the years, so I follow developments for nostalgia, but I'm glad I don't play it anymore.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 17:57:26


Post by: Martel732


I'm liking the primaris line much better after they added a wound to gravis. That was my point.

I have plenty of experience with expensive little bois from DC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LeperColony wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess


Primaris Marines are the stupidest thing I've heard in 40k since the Blood Angel/Necron bromance. I've had a lot of fun with 40k over the years, so I follow developments for nostalgia, but I'm glad I don't play it anymore.


They're not any stupider than any of the other stupid crap GW has written in the past.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 18:05:46


Post by: Stormonu


 frozenwastes wrote:


I'm of the belief that they didn't need to push 30k stuff into 40k. That the change in business practicies would have been enough. The Primaris kits could have simply been up scaled marines and a new edition with a new codex could have meant that all marines just become 2 wounds and 2 attacks. The new kits are bigger, you can use your old marines if you want. Primaris sized Tactical, Assault and Devestator kits along with some characters at launch.


I’m of the opinion that Primaris models were Kirby’s idea, and I think originally the intent was that they would straight-up be replacements for the models. However, while the tooling and molds were probably put together while under Kirby’s reign, Roundtree was put in charge before the time of their release and new management realized the fiasco they would have on hand if they went through with a new edition + marine replacement. I have no information to verify all this, but I strongly suspect they were changed from a replacement release to a supplemental release that would eventually replace old marines. Surely, someone in the company realized replacing the line with an incomplete model line wasn’t going to win them any fans.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 18:08:14


Post by: tneva82


 Backspacehacker wrote:
And end my suffering and complete of hatred of all things primaris? Anyone else really fed up with this life support they have left classic marines with? I just want them to be phased out so I can drop the army already rather then be led along. To be god honest I'm about ready to drop this hobby, or at least anything to do with marines with how bad of a taste primaris has left on me.

General rant I guess


How nice of you to want to make it impossible for players to collect armies for say armageddon campaign just so that you don't have to watch rules and models in shop that you don't have to buy or use if you don't wish.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 18:38:53


Post by: Bharring


 Xenomancers wrote:
Repulsor points hate is perfectly understandable. Repulsor points makes people feel like they wasted money on Repulsor stuff. GW doesn't care because you will end up buying primaris or something else or you probably weren't going to buy much anyways. You should write angry letters to GW. I'm sure they will listen to your cries if you don't like Repulsor points.

FTFY


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 18:45:28


Post by: Deadnight


Accidental post! Sorry!


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/13 23:26:38


Post by: Xenomancers


 Nazrak wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.

Yeah but then, you've been complaining about Marines non-stop for basically five years, minimum, so I think there's a pretty strong possibility that there's literally no pleasing you.
Marines have literally never been good without gladius which is a period in the game which should really just be forgotten?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Repulsor points hate is perfectly understandable. Repulsor points makes people feel like they wasted money on Repulsor stuff. GW doesn't care because you will end up buying primaris or something else or you probably weren't going to buy much anyways. You should write angry letters to GW. I'm sure they will listen to your cries if you don't like Repulsor points.

FTFY
Did you know they actually dropped the price of repuslors in a CA and released the executioner with it's points being 40 points cheaper and 2 weeks later spiked it 40 points? Then raised repuslors points by 30 in this codex? That is a vile marketing strategy to get you to buy new stuff. It should be called out by EVERYONE at every available opportunity. Touché though - I wasn't really referring to this because I actually like primaris. It's not actually appliciable ether because its not like old marine stuff is any worse than primaris stuff. In most cases the old marine stuff is actually the better choice.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 00:40:27


Post by: The Newman


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Nazrak wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I personally find mortal wound mechanic alone a near-deal breaker for old bois. Especially old bois with equipment.

Yeah but then, you've been complaining about Marines non-stop for basically five years, minimum, so I think there's a pretty strong possibility that there's literally no pleasing you.
Marines have literally never been good without gladius which is a period in the game which should really just be forgotten?

4th edition would like a word with you. Marines (power armor in general really) were awful to play against in 4th because the Ap system was all or nothing, if your Ap didn't beat a 3+ you might as well have been throwing tennis balls at them.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 01:42:04


Post by: Argive


Not sure if it was mentioned but didn't they change the name form Codex adeptus astrates (Which I associated with primaris when I got back to the hobby this year as before it was always space marines) to Codex: Space Marines?

I think normarines are not going anywhere soon after all. But OP could just start playing adifferent army or keep playing his army.

They didn't go full WHFB on yer ass so theres that..


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 02:07:26


Post by: BrianDavion


adeptus astartes is always the high gothic name for space marines.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 04:00:59


Post by: Daedalus81


 Xenomancers wrote:
That is a vile marketing strategy to get you to buy new stuff.


Oh. My. fething. God.

This is the most paranoid delusional gak and I'm so tired of it.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 04:42:07


Post by: bullyboy


I believe they figured that the Repulsor/Executioner would be too good with the addition of chapter tactics and doctrines (remember, it has a ton of weapons that will now be -1AP). Most normal marine vehicles don't carry the same amount of firepower that the new primaris tanks do.
However, I do feel the jump was premature. Let it play for awhile, and if then broken, raise points in CA later this year (although we now know that CA is written with how the meta has been in the first half of the year, not the second).

Certainly not a marketing ploy otherwise redemptors would have gone back up too, so stop with the silliness.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 04:50:30


Post by: BrianDavion


I think GW is terrified of primaris units being brokenly good for fear of stoking fears of the death of old marines.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 05:09:30


Post by: Racerguy180


BrianDavion wrote:
I think GW is terrified of primaris units being brokenly good for fear of stoking fears of the death of old marines.


This makes the most sense.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 05:11:53


Post by: AngryAngel80


I don't know, until we see how the FAQs roll out we can't tell. As I need to see how other marines will grow from these changes. As raising the cost of things without all this new stuff to use with them seems like a royally dumb idea. As there is no reason a BA, SW or DA or DW repulsor should cost more. The standard marine dex one does benefit from chapter tactics, the other books not.

As well need to see how the doctrines go, as without access to those I still don't see how they'd be worthy of a point hike. I'd like to think GW won't be so lazy just to copy past, but it is GW we are talking about here.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 09:30:52


Post by: frozenwastes


I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 13:52:48


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Note I would accept the Primaris storyline if it was followed by a push back of anti imperial forces and then a civil war between an alliance of old marine chapters, some of the high lords, other discontented factions against the Primaris bunch.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 15:02:53


Post by: Ishagu


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Note I would accept the Primaris storyline if it was followed by a push back of anti imperial forces and then a civil war between an alliance of old marine chapters, some of the high lords, other discontented factions against the Primaris bunch.


Been there and done that. Over and over again.

Chapters that refuse the word of the Imperial Regent and Custodes are heretics.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 15:13:59


Post by: Xenomancers


 frozenwastes wrote:
I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.
Ehhh - I doubt it comes down to play testing. It's a sales gimmick to make you buy particular units. There is no reason primaris can't ride in a storm raven for example.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 15:15:18


Post by: AnomanderRake


 frozenwastes wrote:
I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.


That presumes any playtesting is done at all...


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 15:19:33


Post by: Xenomancers


 AnomanderRake wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.


That presumes any playtesting is done at all...
Play testing is an additional step after actually thinking things through in a mental model. It really seems that even the mental model is skipped in a lot of cases for GW rules. Hard to conceive any of this stuff is actually play tested.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 15:38:43


Post by: LeperColony


 frozenwastes wrote:
I'm of the belief that they didn't need to push 30k stuff into 40k. That the change in business practicies would have been enough. The Primaris kits could have simply been up scaled marines and a new edition with a new codex could have meant that all marines just become 2 wounds and 2 attacks. The new kits are bigger, you can use your old marines if you want. Primaris sized Tactical, Assault and Devestator kits along with some characters at launch.


Very much this. "Primaris" should have just been true-scale marine model replacements, in the same way that larger plastic termies came to supplant smaller metal ones.

Instead, apparently some guy who has been in stasis for nine thousand years and some random tech priest are better at science than the Emperor. And they've also managed to outfit their super legions with mountains of grav tech that has been steadily disappearing from the Imperium since the heresy? Yeah, that makes sense.



Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 15:54:20


Post by: Martel732


It kinda does. People can build on what the emperor did without being smarter. Its how science works.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:04:55


Post by: LeperColony


Martel732 wrote:
I kinda does. People can build on what the emperor did without being smarter. Its how science works.


Not after 10,000 years of steady decline. Also, the Imperium doesn't have science. They have a techno-religious caste.

The Primaris are just lazy storytelling in the "let's just make stuff bigger" tradition.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:05:35


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Martel732 wrote:
I kinda does. People can build on what the emperor did without being smarter. Its how science works.


And literally gets you burnt at the stake in the Imperium.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:08:01


Post by: Martel732


I reject that part of the setting as impossible. Evidently, so do the primaris authors.

Its time to end the satire. Its not the 90s.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:09:09


Post by: Ishagu


You guys need to read some of the new novels.

Belisarius Cawl is a Master of Masters from the Horus Heresy, and he was a maverick with technology even back then.
He commands vast portions of Mars, has cloned his mind multiple times and has entire armies of tech servants.

He is very much a scientist, and he has the resource - with the support of the Imperial regent - to enact massive change on a galactic scale in terms of Technological dogma.

Guilliman also has some limited influence over the Mechanicus and the sharing of technology is more likely now, instead of being hoarded.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:20:16


Post by: LeperColony


Martel732 wrote:
I reject that part of the setting as impossible. Evidently, so do the primaris authors.

Its time to end the satire. Its not the 90s.


That's the fundamental admission right there. Primaris don't match the fluff, or develop the fluff, they retcon it.

And do a really bad job of it.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:21:22


Post by: Ishagu


What have Primaris retconned?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:23:11


Post by: Martel732


LeperColony wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I reject that part of the setting as impossible. Evidently, so do the primaris authors.

Its time to end the satire. Its not the 90s.


That's the fundamental admission right there. Primaris don't match the fluff, or develop the fluff, they retcon it.

And do a really bad job of it.


It was impossible to begin with. Nothing lasts 10k years with no innovation. That was the joke. You cant play the 90s imperium straight. It breaks logic too hard. The joke is over they are playing it straight now. Innovation is back by necessity.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:26:18


Post by: AnomanderRake


Independent of the new novels the idea that the Mechanicum burns anyone who tries to change the status quo at the stake is a gross oversimplification that has never been true.

A large part of the nature of 40k is that the universe hates you; if you leave anything up to chance, if you try and do anything without having perfect control over the outcome, it'll probably blow up in your face. The Mechanicum has, accordingly, developed a culture and a set of procedures around innovation that any experimentation has to be ludicrously tightly controlled to prevent it from blowing up and killing everyone. The fact that the rebellion of the Men of Iron led the Mechanicum to tightly restrict the development of computing technology just makes everything proceed more slowly because you can't automate as much of it.

The Mechanicum doesn't declare you a heretic and burn you at the stake for innovating. The Mechanicum declares you a heretic and burns you at the stake for taking shortcuts around proper procedure. They understand that if they don't keep the process under control it's likely to waste resources and kill people.

The reason STC data is so valuable is that it was put together in an age before the Men of Iron when the Imperium made extensive use of computers, and it has been designed and tested with the aid of information processing far beyond the modern Imperium's capabilities, so it's much more robust and stable than things the Imperium has built since.

Cawl came from the era of Arkhan Land (who found the STC data that came to be the Land Raider and the Land Speeder, and decided it might be fun to try sticking bits of them together to try making the grav-raider), the Cybernetica Cortex (when the Mechanicum pushed dangerously close to artificial intelligence by building semi-independent computers based on human brain tissue), and the Darkfire cannon (when the Mechanicum tried to reverse-engineer eldar Dark Lances and came pretty close). The Mechanicum has a spirit of innovation still, and pushes at the bounds of its constraints in an effort to make better stuff; the Malagra caste (internal Mechanicum Inquisition) wouldn't be necessary if they had all decided that there's no need to innovate and only old stuff is ever allowed.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:32:08


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:38:29


Post by: Martel732


 AnomanderRake wrote:
Independent of the new novels the idea that the Mechanicum burns anyone who tries to change the status quo at the stake is a gross oversimplification that has never been true.

A large part of the nature of 40k is that the universe hates you; if you leave anything up to chance, if you try and do anything without having perfect control over the outcome, it'll probably blow up in your face. The Mechanicum has, accordingly, developed a culture and a set of procedures around innovation that any experimentation has to be ludicrously tightly controlled to prevent it from blowing up and killing everyone. The fact that the rebellion of the Men of Iron led the Mechanicum to tightly restrict the development of computing technology just makes everything proceed more slowly because you can't automate as much of it.

The Mechanicum doesn't declare you a heretic and burn you at the stake for innovating. The Mechanicum declares you a heretic and burns you at the stake for taking shortcuts around proper procedure. They understand that if they don't keep the process under control it's likely to waste resources and kill people.

The reason STC data is so valuable is that it was put together in an age before the Men of Iron when the Imperium made extensive use of computers, and it has been designed and tested with the aid of information processing far beyond the modern Imperium's capabilities, so it's much more robust and stable than things the Imperium has built since.

Cawl came from the era of Arkhan Land (who found the STC data that came to be the Land Raider and the Land Speeder, and decided it might be fun to try sticking bits of them together to try making the grav-raider), the Cybernetica Cortex (when the Mechanicum pushed dangerously close to artificial intelligence by building semi-independent computers based on human brain tissue), and the Darkfire cannon (when the Mechanicum tried to reverse-engineer eldar Dark Lances and came pretty close). The Mechanicum has a spirit of innovation still, and pushes at the bounds of its constraints in an effort to make better stuff; the Malagra caste (internal Mechanicum Inquisition) wouldn't be necessary if they had all decided that there's no need to innovate and only old stuff is ever allowed.


They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:38:42


Post by: AnomanderRake


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.


A good approach to licensed novels is to find authors who have written good non-licensed novels (ex. Dan Abnett, Embedded, Timothy Zahn, Cobra) and stick to them. To take an example off the front page of Black Library Nick Kyme has written for White Dwarf and Black Library novels, so we don't know if he's any good when he doesn't have "YAY WARHAMMER" fan loyalty to carry him.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:39:00


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
black library overall is not really well written


That is an incredibly generous assessment.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:43:18


Post by: AnomanderRake


Martel732 wrote:
...They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.


Warhammer is, on some level, a cosmic horror story. Humanity is being menaced by forces beyond their control, understanding, or comprehension. The reason the Imperium is so totalitarian and repressive, the reason the Mechanicum has such tight controls on innovation, is that the universe hates everything and if they do anything without keeping it as tightly controlled as possible it'll blow up in their face because that's the nature of the universe.

To my mind it'd be far more damaging to the narrative if the Mechanicum tried to build new AI and the result was "oh, it's fine, we've been panicking for twenty thousand years for no reason, the machines won't turn on you" than almost anything GW has actually done with the setting.

(With the possible exception of Kaldor Draigo. "No, the Chaos Primarchs aren't actually that scary, one random Space Marine can beat them up and dissect them on his own!")


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:45:39


Post by: LeperColony


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.


For over 20 years, the Imperium has been consistently depicted as an ossified society in (possibly terminal) decay. Adepts toil their entire lives tabulating figures decades or centuries old, the results of which are long past significance if indeed they ever were. The great mass of humanity lives in ignorance, poverty and suffering. Religious fanaticism is what passes for culture, and great multitudes slog through arduous pilgrimages.

Technology has become the province of a techno-religious caste who understand science only imperfectly and through the prism of ritual. The practical applications are seen as no more important (and possibly less) than the offerings, unctions and prayers that keep the great machines working. The Emperor was a singular individual who, possibly ageless (there were some references that could be seen as connecting him to the Old World), saw his greatest work corrupted.

But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:49:02


Post by: Ishagu


It took 10 thousand years.

You really do need to read some recent novels, clearly.
Maybe stop getting summaries from 1d4 chan? lol

You've had two years to get used to Primaris. If you're not on board move to a different faction, ignore them or switch hobbies.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:56:49


Post by: Xenomancers


 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

Belisarius Cawl is a Master of Masters from the Horus Heresy, and he was a maverick with technology even back then.
He commands vast portions of Mars, has cloned his mind multiple times and has entire armies of tech servants.

He is very much a scientist, and he has the resource - with the support of the Imperial regent - to enact massive change on a galactic scale in terms of Technological dogma.

Guilliman also has some limited influence over the Mechanicus and the sharing of technology is more likely now, instead of being hoarded.

Well he is a super genius and a taction. Wouldn't it make sense he improve the tech of his 1 million planet empire?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:57:10


Post by: Martel732


 AnomanderRake wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
...They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.


Warhammer is, on some level, a cosmic horror story. Humanity is being menaced by forces beyond their control, understanding, or comprehension. The reason the Imperium is so totalitarian and repressive, the reason the Mechanicum has such tight controls on innovation, is that the universe hates everything and if they do anything without keeping it as tightly controlled as possible it'll blow up in their face because that's the nature of the universe.

To my mind it'd be far more damaging to the narrative if the Mechanicum tried to build new AI and the result was "oh, it's fine, we've been panicking for twenty thousand years for no reason, the machines won't turn on you" than almost anything GW has actually done with the setting.

(With the possible exception of Kaldor Draigo. "No, the Chaos Primarchs aren't actually that scary, one random Space Marine can beat them up and dissect them on his own!")


Why? Everything changes. Also, desperation is a thing. The humans in Dune didn't even abandon science, they just worked around the AI restriction until Leto II lifted it.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:57:26


Post by: Crimson


LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 16:59:19


Post by: Martel732


LeperColony wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.


For over 20 years, the Imperium has been consistently depicted as an ossified society in (possibly terminal) decay. Adepts toil their entire lives tabulating figures decades or centuries old, the results of which are long past significance if indeed they ever were. The great mass of humanity lives in ignorance, poverty and suffering. Religious fanaticism is what passes for culture, and great multitudes slog through arduous pilgrimages.

Technology has become the province of a techno-religious caste who understand science only imperfectly and through the prism of ritual. The practical applications are seen as no more important (and possibly less) than the offerings, unctions and prayers that keep the great machines working. The Emperor was a singular individual who, possibly ageless (there were some references that could be seen as connecting him to the Old World), saw his greatest work corrupted.

But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.


The thing about science is that it can be recreated from scratch if necessary. Breakoff sectors would quickly outpace the empire, as knowledge is exponential.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.


Yeah, probably. But Geedubs gonna Geedubs. They can't get past the heroic ubermensh. How very German of them.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:02:18


Post by: LeperColony


 Crimson wrote:
LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.


Making it the results of super people just begs the question "if they did it, why couldn't the emperor?" Why are their results so much better, and without 10,000 years of decline to fight through?

Primaris is just another symptom of GW abandoning the setting inspired by works like Elric, Dune, RuneQuest (GW got its start writing adventures for early RPGs like D&D, RuneQuest and Traveller), Judge Dredd and so on in favor of DragonBall Z'ing everything. The only development they're capable of is louder screaming and brighter flashes. But how many super saiyans can you stack on top of each other?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:03:30


Post by: Martel732


But in Dune, remember, technology ended up winning the day. All by Leto's design. The emperor is the budget Leto.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:03:53


Post by: LeperColony


Martel732 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
...They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.


Warhammer is, on some level, a cosmic horror story. Humanity is being menaced by forces beyond their control, understanding, or comprehension. The reason the Imperium is so totalitarian and repressive, the reason the Mechanicum has such tight controls on innovation, is that the universe hates everything and if they do anything without keeping it as tightly controlled as possible it'll blow up in their face because that's the nature of the universe.

To my mind it'd be far more damaging to the narrative if the Mechanicum tried to build new AI and the result was "oh, it's fine, we've been panicking for twenty thousand years for no reason, the machines won't turn on you" than almost anything GW has actually done with the setting.

(With the possible exception of Kaldor Draigo. "No, the Chaos Primarchs aren't actually that scary, one random Space Marine can beat them up and dissect them on his own!")


Why? Everything changes. Also, desperation is a thing. The humans in Dune didn't even abandon science, they just worked around the AI restriction until Leto II lifted it.


Leto is a really bad example for you, and a great example for what we're saying. His process takes centuries and results in several civil wars. The Golden Path is meant to prevent Humanity's extinction, but it does so by fracturing unified society and splintering people forever.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:04:02


Post by: Martel732


LeperColony wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.


Making it the results of super people just begs the question "if they did it, why couldn't the emperor?" Why are their results so much better, and without 10,000 years of decline to fight through?

Primaris is just another symptom of GW abandoning the setting inspired by works like Elric, Dune, RuneQuest (GW got its start writing adventures for early RPGs like D&D, RuneQuest and Traveller), Judge Dredd and so on in favor of DragonBall Z'ing everything. The only development they're capable of is louder screaming and brighter flashes. But how many super saiyans can you stack on top of each other?


Because sometimes less skilled person B can make improvements to brilliant person A's creation.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:24:05


Post by: LeperColony


Martel732 wrote:
LeperColony wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.


Making it the results of super people just begs the question "if they did it, why couldn't the emperor?" Why are their results so much better, and without 10,000 years of decline to fight through?

Primaris is just another symptom of GW abandoning the setting inspired by works like Elric, Dune, RuneQuest (GW got its start writing adventures for early RPGs like D&D, RuneQuest and Traveller), Judge Dredd and so on in favor of DragonBall Z'ing everything. The only development they're capable of is louder screaming and brighter flashes. But how many super saiyans can you stack on top of each other?


Because sometimes less skilled person B can make improvements to brilliant person A's creation.


Yeah, that's like saying I'm going to come up with the unified theory of everything that eluded Einstein. And I'm going to do it on my lunch break.

Is it possible? Yeah. But am I buying my ticket to Stockholm to accept my Nobel Prize? Not anytime soon.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:26:55


Post by: BrianDavion


on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:27:10


Post by: Martel732


No, it's not. It's how science works every day. Primaris are improvement, not a radical paradigm shift.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?


I'm 1000% more optimistic about primaris with 3W gravis guys. The devil is always in the details. 3W is the magic number in 8th.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:31:37


Post by: Adeptus Doritos


In a couple of years "Primaris" and "Original" marines won't be a thing. They'll all be the same 2-wound, 2-attack big marines.

I mean ffs, most of them are cross-compatible already.

Bet you the fluff will get vague on the whole "Primaris" thing and it'll be a 'phase of upgrades' or some handwaved statement that will barely be mentioned.

I'll be happy just to laugh when GW comes out and says "all marines will be primaris scale" so I can laugh heartily at the sad, shrieking grognards that want to act like their kids' college fund has been lit on fire because their old toy soldiers don't look as good as the new toy soldiers, even though their old toy soldiers will still be usable.

That's honestly something I've seen. I watched some guy at least a couple of decades my senior whinge and mewl about Primaris marines and GW ruining his "investment" in old marines- this individual cried like someone had taken his family dog and all his family heirlooms and loaded them up into his classic corvette he'd been restoring since the 80's and just had a squad of Hellblasters unload into it while laughing.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:32:33


Post by: Martel732


I have models from 2nd ed, so I think I've gotten my usage of them. My problem with primaris is that they were dog poop on the table. I can lose with old bois I already own, thanks GeeDubs.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:32:34


Post by: Xenomancers


Did interceptors also get 3 wounds?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:33:37


Post by: Martel732


I don't know. I thought it was for all gravis.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:35:17


Post by: BrianDavion


 Xenomancers wrote:
Did interceptors also get 3 wounds?


pretty sure they did. as Martel said all Gravis got an extra wound. which actually makes them a pretty good choice and makes them, pretty tanky


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:36:38


Post by: Martel732


That's all I really wanted for a long time. The extra stuff is just gravy. Don't my make 45 pt model die to a single dissy shot. It makes it unplayable. 2 shots is fine. The difference is staggering.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:36:44


Post by: CapRichard


 Xenomancers wrote:
Did interceptors also get 3 wounds?


All Gravis, so yeah. Even the Gravis captain has a wound more.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:39:08


Post by: Martel732


That makes even that model much closer to hitting the table. Especially now that lack of TH access is not a dealbreaker.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:41:54


Post by: Xenomancers


So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:57:33


Post by: Crimson


 Xenomancers wrote:
So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.

Most marine characters have garbage shooting attacks. And he is a melee character, so at least the pistol shots will be useful there. Pointless double melee weapons are still annoying though.

Still, seems pretty solid now. I need to convert one out of Calgar one day.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 17:59:43


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 Crimson wrote:

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake

You probably nailed another horrible trend. I don't know if it's fanboyism for the favorite sue/stu of the author, or just imiating warmahordes but it's bad, cheap and makes the galaxy feel smalller.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
In a couple of years "Primaris" and "Original" marines won't be a thing. They'll all be the same 2-wound, 2-attack big marines.

This is possible. But before that, GW will squeeze every dime from marine players while they say "thank you!".


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:02:04


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.

Most marine characters have garbage shooting attacks. And he is a melee character, so at least the pistol shots will be useful there. Pointless double melee weapons are still annoying though.

Still, seems pretty solid now. I need to convert one out of Calgar one day.


can proably get gravis capies cheap on ebay.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:02:39


Post by: Martel732


 Crimson wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
So 7 wounds on gravis captain? That is interesting. He is pretty tough for his points now. If only he didn't have such a garbage shooting attack.

Most marine characters have garbage shooting attacks. And he is a melee character, so at least the pistol shots will be useful there. Pointless double melee weapons are still annoying though.

Still, seems pretty solid now. I need to convert one out of Calgar one day.


Most of my characters have a bolt pistol. Maybe inferno on a good day. He's there to hand out the aura, not die, and be the sheriff.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:02:48


Post by: Kaiyanwang


 Ishagu wrote:
It took 10 thousand years.

If you are just ignoring the original point raised by that post, why bothering to answer?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:04:50


Post by: Crimson


BrianDavion wrote:

can proably get gravis capies cheap on ebay.

I have one. But he is ugly, the pose is awkward. Calgar will be a much better stating point.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:05:36


Post by: Martel732


I enjoyed painting mine. Never use him, but it was fun to paint. (poorly)


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:05:42


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

can proably get gravis capies cheap on ebay.

I have one. But he is ugly, the pose is awkward. Calgar will be a much better stating point.


I'm kinda hoping for a new grav captain (maybe with a better weapons selection) in a few years when the big grav release comes.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:06:23


Post by: Martel732


The two damage sword and the fist isn't a bad combo. Esp with the TH nerf.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:08:14


Post by: Crimson


Martel732 wrote:
The two damage sword and the fist isn't a bad combo. Esp with the TH nerf.

When would you use the sword? It is pretty damn situational and certainly not worth the points.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:08:57


Post by: Martel732


When I want to hit on a 2+. I guess it's a little better for BA now that I think about it. Certainly stabbing at PB. I don't want to miss or roll 1 damage.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:13:42


Post by: Crimson


Martel732 wrote:
When I want to hit on a 2+. I guess it's a little better for BA now that I think about it. Certainly stabbing at PB. I don't want to miss or roll 1 damage.

I think that in most cases wounding better on the fist gets equal or better results than hitting on 2+. But yeah, the BA bonus certainly makes the sword much more viable.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:16:26


Post by: CapRichard


The new flaming sword relic can be useful with them, it's 2 damage now. Still I would deploy him with IH tactics and armor indomitus.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:19:23


Post by: Crimson


CapRichard wrote:
The new flaming sword relic can be useful with them, it's 2 damage now. Still I would deploy him with IH tactics and armor indomitus.

Yep. I'm pleased that there finally is a decent relic that (at least some) Primaris characters can take.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:28:09


Post by: CapRichard


There is a lot of stuff relic wise to decompress. You have general relics, supplement founding relics, generic successor relics, you can make sergeants more impactful with special equipment, give warlord traits to other characters...

I'm definitely going to dig deep to find how to best fit the rules to my DIY chapter


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 18:56:51


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
CapRichard wrote:
The new flaming sword relic can be useful with them, it's 2 damage now. Still I would deploy him with IH tactics and armor indomitus.

Yep. I'm pleased that there finally is a decent relic that (at least some) Primaris characters can take.


there are a few good primaris relics now, the stalker boltgun and auto boltgun relics are pretty solid choices too


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 19:27:18


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?


That depends on how it's handled. If all the promotional material is heavily biased towards Primaris, then maybe. If Primaris and Classics are treated as equally viable/important, probably less complaining will be had.

Cue GW taking Eldar in the same direction, building armies entirely of Ynnead worshiping Wraith-constructs, and downplaying the importance and tradition of Aspect Warriors.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 19:32:22


Post by: BrianDavion


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?


That depends on how it's handled. If all the promotional material is heavily biased towards Primaris, then maybe. If Primaris and Classics are treated as equally viable/important, probably less complaining will be had.

Cue GW taking Eldar in the same direction, building armies entirely of Ynnead worshiping Wraith-constructs, and downplaying the importance and tradition of Aspect Warriors.



eh I dunno the new codex clearly gives old marines some nice stuff but what you hear is "OHH MY GOD THEY BUFFED PRIMARIS AND ONLY PRIMARIS" the advertising focuses on primaris because the primaris got new stuff, but that only makes sense


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 19:33:45


Post by: Martel732


Grav buff is nontrivial. Only problem is that in demon/ork meta, I cant' justify the cost.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 19:45:43


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
on another note, is this going to become the future of space marines, everytime a new codex comes out over a dozen threads by people whining about Primaris?


That depends on how it's handled. If all the promotional material is heavily biased towards Primaris, then maybe. If Primaris and Classics are treated as equally viable/important, probably less complaining will be had.

Cue GW taking Eldar in the same direction, building armies entirely of Ynnead worshiping Wraith-constructs, and downplaying the importance and tradition of Aspect Warriors.

eh I dunno the new codex clearly gives old marines some nice stuff but what you hear is "OHH MY GOD THEY BUFFED PRIMARIS AND ONLY PRIMARIS" the advertising focuses on primaris because the primaris got new stuff, but that only makes sense


I agree, with the new codex methinks my standing army will come out pretty nicely, and I'm looking forward to it. But it sure seems like most of the promo is all Primaris, all the time. That said, they did show off "classics" during their "Updated chapter Tactics" promo, presumably because they don't have painted Primaris for them

Personally, I'll be fine with a minimal sort of legacy support.

Well, also for threads titled "Can GW just kill classic marines already?" to not pop up.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 19:48:44


Post by: Martel732


Classic marines are fine. I just dont' care for how they play in 8th. They have so many kits, the only path forward I see is slow soft squatting.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 20:01:48


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:
Classic marines are fine. I just dont' care for how they play in 8th. They have so many kits, the only path forward I see is slow soft squatting.

They could kill 90% of the kits and I'd be fine with it.

To keep:
Tactical Box
Asault Box
Devastator Box
Razorback
Predator
Land Raider
Bikes
Attack Bike
Land Speeder
Boxnaught
Command Box
Whirlwind

Redo:
Terminators (new kit w/all options)
Scouts (new kit w/all options)
Librarian/Chaplain Kit
Captain Kit
Techmarine+Servitors Kit

I think the Chapter Specific upgrade kits for Intercessors fit them anyways.

Optional: Recut kits to match current CSM scale. But DON'T skimp on the kit options.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 21:37:30


Post by: Brother Castor


Well I for one am very pleased to see that all the non-Primaris units are still in the core SM codex, and benefit from all the new rules. I disagree that non-Primaris SM are on life support. Sure GW might only be releasing Primaris units, but all of the core units look here to stay. I like the new rules, and the format, and I hope this means GW are planning to leave the core codex alone and only release supplements when they release new Primaris units. That way people can choose to pay for new rules if they want to use the new units. With this release, even Primaris players are having to pay for rules they've already paid for. I can't see people being happy to do that again any time soon, especially as the supplements mean shelling out even more this time.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/14 23:13:56


Post by: LunaWolvesLoyalist


Come to Horus Heresy, where REAL Marines rule.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 02:07:13


Post by: ZebioLizard2


LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Come to Horus Heresy, where REAL Marines rule.
Yeah! Where REAL marines get completely devastated by Phosphex artillery!


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 13:36:23


Post by: Nazrak


 Stormonu wrote:

… I think originally the intent was that they would straight-up be replacements for the models. However, while the tooling and molds were probably put together while under Kirby’s reign, Roundtree was put in charge before the time of their release and new management realized the fiasco they would have on hand if they went through with a new edition + marine replacement. I have no information to verify all this, but I strongly suspect they were changed from a replacement release to a supplemental release that would eventually replace old marines. Surely, someone in the company realized replacing the line with an incomplete model line wasn’t going to win them any fans.

I have it on good authority from someone inside GW that this is pretty much exactly what happened. Obviously there's no way anybody's going to be saying this publicly though.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 14:32:34


Post by: robbienw


 Nazrak wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:

… I think originally the intent was that they would straight-up be replacements for the models. However, while the tooling and molds were probably put together while under Kirby’s reign, Roundtree was put in charge before the time of their release and new management realized the fiasco they would have on hand if they went through with a new edition + marine replacement. I have no information to verify all this, but I strongly suspect they were changed from a replacement release to a supplemental release that would eventually replace old marines. Surely, someone in the company realized replacing the line with an incomplete model line wasn’t going to win them any fans.

I have it on good authority from someone inside GW that this is pretty much exactly what happened. Obviously there's no way anybody's going to be saying this publicly though.


Yeah it has got to have been what happened orginally

Profits are falling badly - Lets not do anything reasonable, engage with customers on social media, make stuff people have been asking for for years, etc. Lets instead redo the whole marine line and make the fools rebuy their whole marine collections again. This is very Kirby old GW way of doing things.

It would also explain why they designed the whole range at the same time and have years worth more of primaris stuff ready to go, as jes goodwin spoke about in the shadowspear Voxcast; it was orginally meant to be released all at the same time/in a short time frame.

Then Kevin Roundtree takes the helm and sees how much of bad idea this is.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 14:35:12


Post by: Ishagu


You can't release 30 kits simultaneously. People have a hobby budget, monthly or annual limits.

You have to release the models peace-meal otherwise you end up competing with yourself.

I haven't bought some stuff I was really interested in precisely because of the crowded GW release schedule.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 14:54:56


Post by: robbienw


Indeed - precisely one of the reasons it would have been a bad idea.

Equally, it also would have been a terrible idea to replace the entire marine range with its excellent variety with just the 2017 primaris units released, and then say you have to wait 15 years for the variety to be built up again.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 14:56:48


Post by: Ishagu


It won't be 15.

Probably more like 3. There are already 30+ Primaris units. They only things they lack are:

-Flyer
-Jetbikes
-A few more HQ options and wargear


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 15:16:44


Post by: robbienw


You know what i meant.

But it could be 15 though. There are a lot more units to go to equal the variation of classic marines as a whole. Including all the chapter variant kits (they are massively lacking in this regard). I am talking solely from a model perspective.

Its been already been over 2 years.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/15 15:24:11


Post by: Stormonu


 Ishagu wrote:
You can't release 30 kits simultaneously. People have a hobby budget, monthly or annual limits.

You have to release the models peace-meal otherwise you end up competing with yourself.

I haven't bought some stuff I was really interested in precisely because of the crowded GW release schedule.


Old GW would not have cared if you could keep up, they would only demand you buy.

At initial release though, they would only have ensured that you have at least one unit per slot; variety and choice is a luxury that can be built on. If they had gone with the insanity of “replace not supplement”, they most likely would have done one option per slot release, and then an additional release every 2-3 months until they had a stable line ... and then wondered why 8E marine sales were flagging so horribly.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 11:42:22


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake

You probably nailed another horrible trend. I don't know if it's fanboyism for the favorite sue/stu of the author, or just imiating warmahordes but it's bad, cheap and makes the galaxy feel smalller.


Yep. They forget a faceless history is in many ways bigger. Talk of conclave and synods and the like with politicking that takes up peoples lives is a lot more in the over the top gothic setting.

Also I hope they don't forget not everything should be explained.

All in all I have been disappointed by the whole storyline, especially as Astartes are these prideful dumb creatures that have reacted in far worse ways over far less, and yet have simply agree to their replacement, despite their faith being about them as the pinnacle of the Emperors vision and technology.

At the very least pack them off with a civil war or something.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 11:44:42


Post by: BrianDavion


having a living PRIMARCH and the god damned Custodes backing Primaris Marines tends to alleviate those concerns. especially the custodes. the july white dwarf is pretty educational for that. I reccomend reading it


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 13:24:53


Post by: The_Real_Chris


BrianDavion wrote:
having a living PRIMARCH and the god damned Custodes backing Primaris Marines tends to alleviate those concerns. especially the custodes. the july white dwarf is pretty educational for that. I reccomend reading it


Even then this is not a unified organisation but one that routinely loses whole chapters to turning renegade.

Wonder how they will Primarisify Carcharodons...


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 14:22:34


Post by: frozenwastes


Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 14:31:54


Post by: ClockworkZion


 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 14:40:38


Post by: Crimson


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 15:01:31


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Crimson wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.

No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 15:16:33


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.

No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 15:29:18


Post by: techsoldaten


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 15:48:32


Post by: ChargerIIC


Martel732 wrote:
The rules have also been a middle finger to BA. But im supposed to be upset with primaris?


Of all the factions to complain, I didn't think it would be BA. You get an extra attack on the charge from Shock Assault, and extra wound on your gravis armor units, and no corresponding point cost increase. Plus those drop pods have re-enabled your turn 1 charges that BA players love so dearly. You even got access to the new Phobos armor units (although admittedly, they don't seem to match the BA playstyle very well)

I can understand why DeathWatch is upset - they would love to have the Phobos stuff and lost out and Combat Doctrines cuts into their 'special snowflake zone' of adapting thier bonuses to match the opponent, but BA seems well off in comparison to DW, GK, or even DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.


Best part of Deliverance Lost was when Corax realizes that not all the genetech used in the Primarch/Space Marine process was originally human DNA based and that some came from Xenos species. Your precious marines are already a little Xeno inside.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 16:12:48


Post by: ClockworkZion


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?

He was standing in front of the Golden Throne when he did.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 16:14:07


Post by: Crimson


 ClockworkZion wrote:
[
No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.
You are no fun. Besides there is no such thing as reliable narrator in 40K.

'The comatose mummy over there totally said that I sould take over running the Imperium.'

'Likely story, bro.'


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 16:17:08


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Crimson wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
[
No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.
You are no fun. Besides there is no such thing as reliable narrator in 40K.

'The comatose mummy over there totally said that I sould take over running the Imperium.'

'Likely story, bro.'


Civil War, within a Civil war. within a Civil war.

It's like one of these russian puppets.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 16:19:17


Post by: Agamemnon2


I have to say, the whole notion of my army being eventually squatted has actually reinvigorated my interest in the ol' Eternity Wardens. I think there's something romantic in a story that's coming to end. My chapter won't be getting any Primaris marines at all, because they've refused them, having decided there's no more place for them in this brave new world of gods and monsters. They will instead sell their lives dearly, slowly diminishing with each passing year, before the inevitable end.

To that end, I've started bolstering my army with old 80s and 90s miniatures, honored relics being called to battle one last time before the torch is passed to new chapters. It seems noble and fitting, considering how much Imperial religion is focused around the obsessive worship and veneration of death.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 16:23:19


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Crimson wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
[
No, canon makes it clear that the Emperor actually spoke to him directly.
You are no fun. Besides there is no such thing as reliable narrator in 40K.

'The comatose mummy over there totally said that I sould take over running the Imperium.'

'Likely story, bro.'

Willing to bet the Custodes who personally guard the Golden Throne acted as witnesses to the whole thing.

Besides, with the Imperium torn in two with whole chapter worlds lost to the Warp a civil war would break the Imperium harder than the fall of the Eldar did them.

A new Heresy/Badab War would please the grognards, but ruin the Imperium's chance to pose a reasonable resistance to the threats against humanity.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 16:43:47


Post by: Martel732


I meant rules in general. Since 5th ed.

Turn 1 charges arent that great, certainly not good with units in a pod.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 19:33:41


Post by: robbienw


Not much for the custodes to witness just seeing gulliman standing there for a bit.

The emperor communicated with him psychically, there was no actual speaking.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 19:35:45


Post by: Crimson


robbienw wrote:
Not much for the custodes to witness just seeing gulliman standing there for a bit.

The emperor communicated with him psychically, there was no actual speaking.

I always trust people who hear voices in their head telling them to do things!


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 19:37:16


Post by: Martel732


Emperor needs a text to speech device.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 20:57:12


Post by: techsoldaten


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?

He was standing in front of the Golden Throne when he did.


What would be more Chaos than to deceive a Primarch at the feet of his father?


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 21:00:53


Post by: Insectum7


^There's a point and a half.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 21:13:48


Post by: ClockworkZion


 techsoldaten wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Pretty much. We literally get a 3rd person omniscient look into Guilliman's own thoughts and memories of the event.

Ah, but remember when Sanguinus spoke to the Emperor in Ruinstorm? Can we trust the voice?

He was standing in front of the Golden Throne when he did.


What would be more Chaos than to deceive a Primarch at the feet of his father?

Except Chaos has trouble getting close to the Emperor, much less on Terra proper.

Watchers of the Throne only had Chaos reach Terra because the Astronomicon was shut down for a time. Guilliman met the Emperor when it was back up and running though.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 21:16:45


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
Perfidous xenos were present at the restoration of the Primarch. Can we really trust him and these primaris marines he insists on us taking into our ranks.

Trust not the works of xenos.

He spoke to the Emperor himself. If he was corrupted he would have not survived.

You mean he said he spoke with the Emperor? The rotting vegetable on the throne probably isn't in a condition to speak to anyone, let alone smite someone.


and now we've jumped from "arguments people might ICly have against Gulliman" to "fan conspiracy theories that no one would voice in the IoM without being INSTANTLY blammed for heresy"


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 21:57:35


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


Martel732 wrote:
Emperor needs a text to speech device.


Yeah, but my guess would be the Emperor would just complain about how stupid the Imperium has become to the Captain General of the Custodes, disband the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, send the Ultramarines to kidnap Magnus without use of their Geller Field, steal Magus' soul from Tzeentch, send the Ultramarines to recover all of Vulcan's artifacts and stealthy drop them off to the Salamanders followed by sending the Ultramarines to Commorragho to get into a dance competition with the Dark Eldar something like that. Just a wild guess though. Oh, he might also start of podcast talking about Black Library books too.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:03:18


Post by: frozenwastes


My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

GW has a barrier in presenting these sentiments too overtly in their fiction. They would be an anti-sales technique for any fan they resonate with and GW is trying to sell the new Primaris stuff. So I don't think we'll see any overt opposition to the adoption of Primaris beyond a grumbling flesh tearer until GW has kits to release for the primaris rejecting people. Whether that's part of some civil war or a new quasi-renegade/traditionalist faction launch, I don't know.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:06:18


Post by: ClockworkZion


 frozenwastes wrote:
My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

You mean the book on tactics 101 everyone treats as a religious text because raisins?

Sure that proves Heresy Leandros.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:08:00


Post by: AngryAngel80


That is true, and if we're really getting into it. Gman wrote the codex, yet his Primaris squads aren't set up like a tactical squad following his own take all comers approach. Hmmmm

I smell a rat, in a GMAN skinsuit.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:08:21


Post by: frozenwastes


It's certainly understandable in the dogma-drenched 41st millenium that a space marine chapter might adhere to the codex religiously and reject the primaris as a result.

I also imagine some of the planetary governors Guilliman deposed from the greater Ultramar region were part of the Aquarion group uncovered in the Agent of the Throne audio series. They would certainly do what they could to undermine him if he was such a direct threat to their power. And they are certainly well connected enough to know Xenos were on Macragge and possibly involved in his return.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:13:04


Post by: AngryAngel80


I don't know why anyone living in a world with sayings such as " An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and walls unguarded. " would ever believe someone, even a supposed primarch of the UM glory boys would lie or be dishonest.

I mean, there aren't whole chapters based on concealing thousands of years long stains to their honor who wouldn't trust these GMAN clones.

As well, surely no one would bat an eye when GMAN directly claims to have " perfected " the emperors own work with Big Cawl in charge, I mean no one viewed the Emperor as a god or anything.

I think deception and seeking conspiracy and lies is perfectly in character for most all of 40k.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:18:26


Post by: frozenwastes


During the time that the writing, miniature creation and development of the return of primarchs and the rolling out of Primaris was being done, 40k was in a major decline. Forgeworld/30k was the only division of GW that was growing year over year.

That's why 30k has been injected into 40k.

Then they changed their business practicies and inaccessable rules and now GW is doing great financially and 40k is selling awesome. But the end result is we are stuck with the injection of 30k ideas and characters into 40k even though there never really was anything wrong with 40k and it didn't really need to be End Timesed/Gathering Stormed with Primaris stormcast analogues introduced.

The 2nd wave of both the stormcast and primaris is the vanguard. Is the Extremis chamber next? Extremis Primaris?

That said, I do actually like both the stormcast and primaris marines as well as 30k, so I'm cool with it, but it wasn't necessary to turn 40k around. The issue was GW's business practices under Kirby, their former CEO.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:20:05


Post by: Insectum7


 frozenwastes wrote:
During the time that the writing, miniature creation and development of the return of primarchs and the rolling out of Primaris was being done, 40k was in a major decline. Forgeworld/30k was the only division of GW that was growing year over year.

That's why 30k has been injected into 40k.

Then they changed their business practicies and inaccessable rules and now GW is doing great financially and 40k is selling awesome. But the end result is we are stuck with the injection of 30k ideas and characters into 40k even though there never really was anything wrong with 40k and it didn't really need to be End Timesed with Primaris stormcast analogues introduced.

The 2nd wave of both the stormcast and primaris is the vanguard. Is the Extremis chamber next? Extremis Primaris?

That said, I do actually like both the stormcast and primaris marines as well as 30k, so I'm cool with it, but it wasn't necessary to turn 40k around. The issue was GW's business practices under Kirby, their former CEO.

I can totally believe that.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:30:15


Post by: BrianDavion


 frozenwastes wrote:
My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

GW has a barrier in presenting these sentiments too overtly in their fiction. They would be an anti-sales technique for any fan they resonate with and GW is trying to sell the new Primaris stuff. So I don't think we'll see any overt opposition to the adoption of Primaris beyond a grumbling flesh tearer until GW has kits to release for the primaris rejecting people. Whether that's part of some civil war or a new quasi-renegade/traditionalist faction launch, I don't know.


that and Primaris isn't exactly being presented in a "hi, we have a gift for you, it's really neat you should accept it" it's being presented in a "This is a gift directly from the Emperor, only a traitor would refuse a direct gift from the emperor himself"

the July White Dwarf features a story where the Custodes gift the Blood Ravens the Primaris, the tone makes it VERY clear that this isn't an option.Primaris are a gift delivered with a gun to the head of the recipiant. if a Chatper rejected Primaris Marines, it seems pretty clear to me the fething CUSTODES would exterminate the chapter. (proably gleefully, they're not partiuclar fans of Astartes)


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:33:51


Post by: Insectum7


^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:36:00


Post by: frozenwastes


It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 22:36:05


Post by: Not Online!!!


BrianDavion wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
My entire point in starting this hilarious tangent was to simply point out that in universe space marine chapters have very real reasons to be suspicious of the primarch and his primaris marines. They are very easy to come up with.

Would a true primarch so directly violate his own codex? It's served our chapter for thousands of years and then someone claiming to be Guilliman goes against it? And wants to embed his own warriors in our ranks?

GW has a barrier in presenting these sentiments too overtly in their fiction. They would be an anti-sales technique for any fan they resonate with and GW is trying to sell the new Primaris stuff. So I don't think we'll see any overt opposition to the adoption of Primaris beyond a grumbling flesh tearer until GW has kits to release for the primaris rejecting people. Whether that's part of some civil war or a new quasi-renegade/traditionalist faction launch, I don't know.


that and Primaris isn't exactly being presented in a "hi, we have a gift for you, it's really neat you should accept it" it's being presented in a "This is a gift directly from the Emperor, only a traitor would refuse a direct gift from the emperor himself"

the July White Dwarf features a story where the Custodes gift the Blood Ravens the Primaris, the tone makes it VERY clear that this isn't an option.Primaris are a gift delivered with a gun to the head of the recipiant. if a Chatper rejected Primaris Marines, it seems pretty clear to me the fething CUSTODES would exterminate the chapter. (proably gleefully, they're not partiuclar fans of Astartes)


Could be a long haul strategy, soviel primaris down all throats, then start the in universe civil war due to marines rejecting them, sell primaris renegades too Chaos aswell, there done, milked market marines and Expanded market Chaos Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 frozenwastes wrote:
It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.


It's as if GW has neither an idea about scale or supply lines.
But that is nothing new


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/19 23:21:40


Post by: BrianDavion


 Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.


codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.

The Blood ravens where also given pure samples of their geneseed from Mars which would potentially answer many of their herritage questions. however I'm not sure how nesscary this is to the creation of PRIMARIS Marines, it strikes me as possiable that it was simply a sweatener to make the BRs more inclined to accept so it's possiable in addition to the threat of extermination for rejecting, Chapters being offered Primaris are, whenever possiable offered something in addition that they really want. thus Gulliman and the Custodes are adopting a Carrot and Stick approuch to Primaris.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 10:32:32


Post by: carldooley


Paint up your Inquisitor or Chapter Master as Napoleon and refer to your Space Marines as 'The Old Guard'


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 16:49:27


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 frozenwastes wrote:
It's sort of funny how prior to the great rift opening entire fleets and planets could be cut off from the Imperium, important paperwork could be lost in administratum bureaucracy for generations and then things get worse with a giant space rift cutting the galaxy in half and warp storms going everywhere to the point that the astronomicon can be cut off and the rolling out of the Primaris to every chapter happened so easily and efficiently.



I wonder why...


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 18:51:10


Post by: Agamemnon2


BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.


codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.


Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 18:55:41


Post by: Insectum7


I'll say my entire Chapter is involved in fleet operations against the Tyranids, and just "has't found the time". . .


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 20:20:51


Post by: AngryAngel80


Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine. Only my poor Deathwatch got bullied, they're too small in number.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 20:28:43


Post by: Racerguy180


AngryAngel80 wrote:
Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine. Only my poor Deathwatch got bullied, they're too small in number.


This works perfectly fine. If you don't want primaris....don't take them.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 20:36:55


Post by: BrianDavion


AngryAngel80 wrote:
Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine.


it only took making your chapter a blatent mary sue to do so


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.


codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.


Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."


thats proably the best way to do so. it's a big galaxy and it's easy to miss a space marine chapter. the lore is filled with examples of this.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 20:47:34


Post by: Crimson


 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."


I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 22:12:21


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crimson wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."


I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.



... the only thing that could make this more 40k is if the IoM only found out about it when the primaris reinforcements they where sent finally arrived only to find an empty chapter monestary


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 22:18:29


Post by: AngryAngel80


BrianDavion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Most of my marines straight denied the primaris and smacked the custodes like a b**ch and they ran away crying to the emperor.

See ? I denied the primairis and my marines are fine.


it only took making your chapter a blatent mary sue to do so


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Fascinating. No, seriously. I haven't really been following it.


codex custodes also hinted at this, assuming the blood ravens where a typical case they start by telling they've brought the secrets of Primaris Marine creation tio the chapter, whe/if the chapter raises concerns they're told that "compliance is all that is required" which in addition to the primaris creation techniques requires them to take in some tech adepts etc from Mars to help adapt the process (THAT BTW is where most chapters are inclined to balk) the chapter is also shown early primaris training footage to show what they are capable of.


Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."


thats proably the best way to do so. it's a big galaxy and it's easy to miss a space marine chapter. the lore is filled with examples of this.


It's ok, Primaris are the biggest mary sues since ward marines, my chapter will survive as I put as much thought into them denying Primaris as the primaris line had in its creation.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/20 23:57:31


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


BrianDavion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."


I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.



... the only thing that could make this more 40k is if the IoM only found out about it when the primaris reinforcements they where sent finally arrived only to find an empty chapter monestary


Then the Primaris take up the name sake of the chapter in their honor assuming they all died and setup shop. When the non-Primaris get back from their crusade miraculously surviving they find they been replaced completely with Primaris wearing their chapter colors and calling themselves the same name. This sounds a lot like how it probably will go for the Lamentors.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/21 00:03:59


Post by: BrianDavion


 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:

Ah, that's an important detail. It will require me to modify my chapter backstory a bit to accommodate the Custodes not taking no for an answer. Perhaps my chapter is simply one that's been passed over, intentionally or by accident, and that's led them to make their own fatalist conclusions. After all, "The galaxy is a big place and you will not be missed."


I love the idea that some chapter concludes that not receiving the Primaris means that then Emperor has forsaken them and go on some suicidal penitent crusade whilst it actually is a mere clerical error.



... the only thing that could make this more 40k is if the IoM only found out about it when the primaris reinforcements they where sent finally arrived only to find an empty chapter monestary


Then the Primaris take up the name sake of the chapter in their honor assuming they all died and setup shop. When the non-Primaris get back from their crusade miraculously surviving they find they been replaced completely with Primaris wearing their chapter colors and calling themselves the same name. This sounds a lot like how it probably will go for the Lamentors.


que civil war with both side assuming the other are heretics


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/21 00:36:27


Post by: The Newman


GW featured The Emperor's Pointy Sticks in a build-your-own-chapter showcase. So long as Fren and Krep are still driving a Land Raider with turn signals GW can't kill off mini-marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
que civil war with both side assuming the other are heretics


It's the 40k way.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/21 01:57:43


Post by: AngryAngel80


As soon as Gman turns on the church, their heretic selves will be seen. We already know Cawl is a tech heretic.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/21 03:25:35


Post by: frozenwastes


AngryAngel80 wrote:
As soon as Gman turns on the church, their heretic selves will be seen. We already know Cawl is a tech heretic.


You read Plague War?

Spoiler:
G-man, for the first time ever, reads the Lectio Divinitatus after his life was saved by a 14 year old living saint. He ends up totally off balance and angry after falling into Mortarions trap so completely and then being rescued by a golden presence emanating from the girl that the custodes present experiences as being the emperor.

It was actually a really bad novel with primarchs acting so dumb I'd say they are stupider than the average person rather than superior. Both G-man and Mortarion fail to get what they want because they're too dumb.



Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/21 07:26:12


Post by: Isengard


Personally I think there are many advantages to primaris marines. The models are simply better, the scale is right, they have much more of a feel of what marines ought to be, i.e. bigger and stronger than ordinary people.

Where I have an issue is the fluff. GW did not come up with anything sensible in terms of shoehorning them in. I assume they produced some testers for more 'realistic' (in the background) marines, realised they were cool figures and then decided how they could get them in. Primaris is a fudge and one of the weakest fluff moves they have made in a long time. The whole premise is ludicrous in so many ways. It has long been clear that the Emperor is a genius on a god-like level and only he has the intellect and capacity to do something so momentous as to design a line of new living beings. To allow Cawl to do the same is non-sensical on so many levels. It is heresy in any meaningful reading of the 40K background, there is no reasonable explanation for how he was able to do this, the vast amount of tailored new tech is totally at odds with a stagnated humanity not making any advances. Why on earth would the indoctrinated and ultra-conservative Imperium have accepted this innovation? Etc, etc.

So for me the models are great, they are what marines ought to be like and solve the scale issues which have dogged marines for years. I like them and I have some. But fluff wise they are a huge glaring wtf and I find myself conflicted about them on the battlefield since they just don't fit the fluff in my opinion.


Can GW just kill classic marines already? @ 2019/08/21 10:51:36


Post by: BrianDavion


except Cawl didn't do the same, he just cludged some additional primarch DNA onto the thing, doing the exact same thing corax did during the heresy