The enemies of the Emperor fear many things.
They fear discovery, defeat, despair and death.
Yet there is one thing they fear above all others.
They fear the wrath of the Space Marines!
With the Vanguards stuff, the Impulsor and the Drop Pod buff marines now have a large selection of units that can deploy or easily move close to the enemy easily. This got me thinking about the command auras. Would it be wise to have two Captains (and possibly Lieutenants too) in the army? One going with the units that get close to the enemy lines, another staying in the backfield buffing the longer ranged elements?
Also, what do people think of the Chaplain litanies? How are they best used?
Looking at the new stuff (and waiting patiently for my supplement to drop) i think black templars are at an ok place now. I have a reason to run my gravis captain now, give him chapter master for 2cp and the new vox relic for a 9" reroll bubble... its not as good as the crusaders helm was but it will work for now. However i am going to probably run mine as a successor chapter for now because i would rather have the +1 to charge rolls and reroll failed charges than the 5+++ vs mortal wounds and reroll charges.
Drop pod buff is by far the nicest change in the book, and the litanies on the chaplins are quite nice. I am going to run a chaplain with jump pack so that t1 he gets the +2 to charge, run him up the field, drop pod cc troops in near him and give them a +3 to charge t1 rerolling failed. That should give my opponent enough of an issue to chew on so t2 stuff that comes in (terminators / interceptors) can do whatever they want.
I think that the 2+ to charge and 5+++ are the big winners out of the litanies. However i see marines as just as fragile as ever, they just hit much harder quicker than others can. Should be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
I sketched my first 2k list. In the draft I'm thinking puttingbthe chaplain with catechism of fire next to Marneus (WT) and 10 stalker bolt rifle and TH intercessors, helblasters and phobos librarian which are screened by infiltrators. Then I stuck 8 intercessors with TH and chapter master captain with additional WT of storm of fire in a repulsor
Eldarain wrote: So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.
Oh dear! That is legitimately nasty!
Even nastier on an assault centurion. He’d be an absolute monster.
I’m not sure whichcbunit has gained the most out of the new book but assault centurions are Ruhr up there. 52 points for a guy with 4 S10 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s for 3 damage, is incredibly harsh. And they’ve got amazing amounts of dakka too.
So, what's everyonje figure re the new Dread-Not (invictor warsuit.) autocanon or flamer? the flamer has some appeal as you can drop in and immediatly flame some guys turn one. I mean I useally dismiss flamers in this edition, but this could work
BrianDavion wrote: So, what's everyonje figure re the new Dread-Not (invictor warsuit.) autocanon or flamer? the flamer has some appeal as you can drop in and immediatly flame some guys turn one. I mean I useally dismiss flamers in this edition, but this could work
Well it can be fired effectively on the move but at the cost of only getting that foot of range.
I think there's a legit argument over which one you want to be honest. I lean towards Autocannon myself as I love the profile but if you think you need more anti-infantry you're good with the Flamer.
I’m not sure chaff will work against it. Send incursors too and they’ll go through most cheap infantry easily enough.
Personally I think the autocannon might be the way to go. There’s already so much dakka available to marines that more average strength and ap 1-damage weapons aren’t really needed. But to be honest it’s not an easy call either way.
Now that kill shot is gone, invictors seem to be a bit unfair compared to dakka predators. They’ve got more wounds and more dakka, they’re cheaper, and also they’re an infiltrating dreadnought-ish-thing. This is annoying because I’ve recently been refurbishing three predators but they’ve clearly been outclassed now, and my HS slots are massively oversubscribed.
Anyway what that leads me to think is that the autocannon is what you want if you’re going second. Park your invictors in your deployment zone, or out on a flank or whatever, and you’ve got a great counter-punch unit - with enough dakka to work perfectly well in a gunline.
I’m still coming across some slight changes that could be significant. For example Icarus pods doing 2 damage now means you definitely want one any chance you can get, because it’s a 6 point autocannon. I’ve usually left them off my repulsors because they weren’t worth the hassle of rolling for, but that has changed.
Updating my army, getting ready for small tournament.... a little surprise for me, my razorback doesn't have the twin heavy flamer anymore... don't know if the option will still be on Battlescribe. For my fast reading, I will go more with the primaris for my Raven Guard than normal space marine for my main army. The SM will be repaint as Raptor and Cacharadon…
Ice_can wrote: The one massive downside to the invictor is T6,
I expect a lot of weapons are going to be eating through their wounds much faster than people expect.
T6? Rhinos are T7! that's like, a flying Trukk, not a flying Rhino...
Ice_can wrote: The one massive downside to the invictor is T6,
I expect a lot of weapons are going to be eating through their wounds much faster than people expect.
T6? Rhinos are T7! that's like, a flying Trukk, not a flying Rhino...
The Invictor is the new Dreadnought, not the flying Rhino.
It's NOT a rhino... More like a razorback or a transport repulsor. Could you stop calling it rhino when they have no shared characteristics ?
They don't even look alike...
So will this 'dex breathe new life into any units that have been shelved? I'm especially thinking of land speeders and attack bikes with the White Scars ability to lift penalties for moving heavies. Also assault marines with the White Scars CT. And others, I'm sure...
Don't know how out of use bikers were but they got a massive boost with even just the skilled riders strategem.
I think the unused stalker also gets new life with the skyfire strategem. Extra +1 to wound and potential double damage with devastator doctrine is huge for just 1cp. With eldar flyers still dominate it is a cheap choice.
MacPhail wrote: So will this 'dex breathe new life into any units that have been shelved? I'm especially thinking of land speeders and attack bikes with the White Scars ability to lift penalties for moving heavies. Also assault marines with the White Scars CT. And others, I'm sure...
Are Land Speeders subject to the penalty removal for Heavy Weapons? If so, that's actually huge.
MacPhail wrote: So will this 'dex breathe new life into any units that have been shelved? I'm especially thinking of land speeders and attack bikes with the White Scars ability to lift penalties for moving heavies. Also assault marines with the White Scars CT. And others, I'm sure...
Are Land Speeders subject to the penalty removal for Heavy Weapons? If so, that's actually huge.
MacPhail wrote: So will this 'dex breathe new life into any units that have been shelved? I'm especially thinking of land speeders and attack bikes with the White Scars ability to lift penalties for moving heavies. Also assault marines with the White Scars CT. And others, I'm sure...
Are Land Speeders subject to the penalty removal for Heavy Weapons? If so, that's actually huge.
All units get Chapter Tactics now.
that portion of the white scar chapter tactic only applies to bikers.
If you want land speeders to fire with out the minus, ultramarines after turn 1 are your only option so far.
MacPhail wrote: So will this 'dex breathe new life into any units that have been shelved? I'm especially thinking of land speeders and attack bikes with the White Scars ability to lift penalties for moving heavies. Also assault marines with the White Scars CT. And others, I'm sure...
Are Land Speeders subject to the penalty removal for Heavy Weapons? If so, that's actually huge.
All units get Chapter Tactics now.
that portion of the white scar chapter tactic only applies to bikers.
If you want land speeders to fire with out the minus, ultramarines after turn 1 are your only option so far.
white scars however do have a start that allows them to treat a heavy weapon like an assault weapon on a unit that ahs advanced. but yeah not a lot in the white scars supplement that benifits land speeders sadly
MacPhail wrote: So will this 'dex breathe new life into any units that have been shelved? I'm especially thinking of land speeders and attack bikes with the White Scars ability to lift penalties for moving heavies. Also assault marines with the White Scars CT. And others, I'm sure...
Are Land Speeders subject to the penalty removal for Heavy Weapons? If so, that's actually huge.
All units get Chapter Tactics now.
White Scars only called out Bikers for ignoring the heavy penalty I thought?
godardc wrote: It's NOT a rhino... More like a razorback or a transport repulsor. Could you stop calling it rhino when they have no shared characteristics ?
They don't even look alike...
It's a rhino.
It becomes a gakky razorback if you buy it some guns. But stock it has 2 storm bolters and that's it.
Invictors are heavy support? Bah. I was kinda assuming they'd be FA or maybe Elite, but didn't look closely at the previews. Couple with units of only 3 Eliminators, that's a lot of HS slots.
I was originally hoping to skip them on principle of basically being an upgraded nondread dread, but their stats are so nice for ~130pts. Either weapon is tempting. Normally I'd be all about the autocannon, but if deploying up close that 2d6 flamer could do some serious damage. Or at least protect against charges.
BrianDavion wrote: So, what's everyonje figure re the new Dread-Not (invictor warsuit.) autocanon or flamer? the flamer has some appeal as you can drop in and immediatly flame some guys turn one. I mean I useally dismiss flamers in this edition, but this could work
The correct answer to this question is, of course, magnets. When in doubt, magnetize. And that's for any model in 40k that has options (other than some infantry, and some people even do magnets on those).
I'm glad they gave a boost to auto-bolt rifles and stalker bolt rifles. With bolter discipline there was really no reason to take them. Now they can be very powerful choices.
BrianDavion wrote: So, what's everyonje figure re the new Dread-Not (invictor warsuit.) autocanon or flamer? the flamer has some appeal as you can drop in and immediatly flame some guys turn one. I mean I useally dismiss flamers in this edition, but this could work
The correct answer to this question is, of course, magnets. When in doubt, magnetize. And that's for any model in 40k that has options (other than some infantry, and some people even do magnets on those).
I'm talking from a rulesheet POV not a modeling POV
BrianDavion wrote: white scars however do have a start that allows them to treat a heavy weapon like an assault weapon on a unit that ahs advanced. but yeah not a lot in the white scars supplement that benifits land speeders sadly
I think this is accurate... I don't have my book yet. But yeah, I think it's one unit, but if it were 3 AC+HF LandSpeeders or 3 MM Attack Bikes that might work OK, especially since Captain Reroll can pace them on a bike. Melt something shiny, charge something scary, and hopefully survive to see a second turn.
With the Gravitic Amplification stratagem (re-roll To Wound and Damage for Grav Cannons, 1 CP), the Devestator Doctrine and new Drop Pod rules, are Grav-armed Devastator Squads in Drop Pods going to be a thing again?
Eldarain wrote: So Honoured Sergeant on an Ultramarines Aggressor Sergeant for +1 damage on all his bullets and Power Fist attacks is amazing.
What is honoured sergeant already ?
a stratigium that allows you to equip a sergant with a piece of special issue war gear (which is basicly a baby relic) from a small list, including a masterwork weapon. so masterwork an agressors boltstorm gauntlets and...
General Helstrom wrote: With the Gravitic Amplification stratagem (re-roll To Wound and Damage for Grav Cannons, 1 CP), the Devestator Doctrine and new Drop Pod rules, are Grav-armed Devastator Squads in Drop Pods going to be a thing again?
Against heavy infrantry - for sure; against vehicles, assuming all shots hit, wounding on five - about half succesfully wound it, -4 ap, about 7 pass through LR armor probably killing it in one salvo.
I forgot about cherub, meaning extra 4 shots
20 shots- chapter master- 15 hits, rerolls - 5 in first wave, then 3 in 2nd = total 8 wounds, one saved by land raider, means 7 unsaved wounds = 12 dmg before rerolls.
bort wrote: Invictors are heavy support? Bah. I was kinda assuming they'd be FA or maybe Elite, but didn't look closely at the previews. Couple with units of only 3 Eliminators, that's a lot of HS slots.
They’re elite. Don’t know where you got the idea they were heavy.
I’m really quite tempted to run three of the things. I’d probably go with autocannons for my Crimson Fists. Then if I’m going second against an attacking army like knights or plaguebearers I can use them to shoot things. They’ve actually got a surprising amount of 36” range dakka -15 shots with -2ap on turn 1, so I think it’s fine to use as a gun platform and counter-charge unit.
The tactical marine is ascendant, right? For 12 points, with bolter rule, from turn 2 onwards pretty much, the tactical marine is actually quite a nasty troop choice. I don't think it has dislodged the intercessor, but there's now an actual choice to be made between the two, since you can take heavy/special/combi weapons, and put them in transports that are unavailable to primaris.
bort wrote: Invictors are heavy support? Bah. I was kinda assuming they'd be FA or maybe Elite, but didn't look closely at the previews. Couple with units of only 3 Eliminators, that's a lot of HS slots.
They’re elite. Don’t know where you got the idea they were heavy.
I’m really quite tempted to run three of the things. I’d probably go with autocannons for my Crimson Fists. Then if I’m going second against an attacking army like knights or plaguebearers I can use them to shoot things. They’ve actually got a surprising amount of 36” range dakka -15 shots with -2ap on turn 1, so I think it’s fine to use as a gun platform and counter-charge unit.
You said something above about comparing them to Predators and having too many HS options.
Really interested to see if the Iron Hands get a supplement. I've wanted to build an army of them for quite awhile, and now I'm tempted to build a list around 3 invictors and 3 redemptors.
Seems like the invictors options are both good, but what's the concensus on redemptor load outs? Is there a clear choice between the heavy gatling cannon and the plasma?
Starfarer wrote: Really interested to see if the Iron Hands get a supplement.
They almost certainly will.
Seems like the invictors options are both good, but what's the concensus on redemptor load outs? Is there a clear choice between the heavy gatling cannon and the plasma?
Dakka. The plasma is swingy and you can't really overchage and move. Ultra doctrine removes the latter problem though.
Starfarer wrote: Really interested to see if the Iron Hands get a supplement.
They almost certainly will.
Seems like the invictors options are both good, but what's the concensus on redemptor load outs? Is there a clear choice between the heavy gatling cannon and the plasma?
Dakka. The plasma is swingy and you can't really overchage and move. Ultra doctrine removes the latter problem though.
Yeah, with the Iron Father in Gravis armor they showcased awhile back, and the leaked photo of the intercessors rocking IH upgrades, it seems they're all but certain they'll be next up for a supplement.
The Gatling cannons were kind of what I assumed should be the go to choice, but if I take 3, I may run 1 plasma just for variety.
As I understand it, I can make my own successor chapter, using 2 of the traits listed. I can then say they are a White Scars successor chapter and get access to the psychic powers, relics (the generic non specific WS ones, without using a strat) warlord traits and special doctrine (In this case the +1 damage during assault doctrine)
So the only thing I cant use is special characters and relics that say theyre for the White Scars specifically correct?
Have I missed something or is the +3" range thing really really good when combined with the dpod buff?
Sternguard with combi flamers & 2 heavy flamers benefitting from the -1 ap from tactical doctrine for the price seems *really* nice. Tack on Chaplain and +1 charge trait for a fairly easy 6" charge from a dpod assuming there's anything left from 8d6 ap 1 flamer shots on turn 2.
malamis wrote: Have I missed something or is the +3" range thing really really good when combined with the dpod buff?
Sternguard with combi flamers & 2 heavy flamers benefitting from the -1 ap from tactical doctrine for the price seems *really* nice. Tack on Chaplain and +1 charge trait for a fairly easy 6" charge from a dpod assuming there's anything left from 8d6 ap 1 flamer shots on turn 2.
My Soul Drinkers ride again it seems
It is. Also, company vets can all take flamers. By the by.
bort wrote: Invictors are heavy support? Bah. I was kinda assuming they'd be FA or maybe Elite, but didn't look closely at the previews. Couple with units of only 3 Eliminators, that's a lot of HS slots.
They’re elite. Don’t know where you got the idea they were heavy.
I’m really quite tempted to run three of the things. I’d probably go with autocannons for my Crimson Fists. Then if I’m going second against an attacking army like knights or plaguebearers I can use them to shoot things. They’ve actually got a surprising amount of 36” range dakka -15 shots with -2ap on turn 1, so I think it’s fine to use as a gun platform and counter-charge unit.
You said something above about comparing them to Predators and having too many HS options.
Ahh got you, sorry. I just mean that in general there’s more competition for heavy support choices. Eliminators, repulsor executioners, buffs to things like thunderfire cannons and vindicators. It’s harder to argue for predators now they’ve lost kill shot and other stuff has got better. And the Invictor is clearly just better at everything a predator can do.
They still haven't fixed the core issues of degrading movement outside Iron Hands, being unable to fall back and shoot unless you're Ultramarines, and the fact you can't actually move forward over a single Cuktist, meaning it can block your whole delivery.
I don't want to be reliant on Stormravens but here we are.
It's now a suicide missile. vengeance of the machine spirit allows you to auto explode a LR. An ultramarine redeemer is probably best for this (though I don't think it got cheaper) Just just bonzi charge with it charge to deal mortal wounds with your assault launchers and keep falling back and shooting until they decide they might actually have to destroy this thing. Then you blow it up doing d6 mortals. A storm raven can also do this explosion too and might actually be better at it because it is a lot faster though and you can use the much better iron hands tactic here. I'd probably just leave the hurricane bolters off of it and give it heavy bolters and twin assault cannon and spam that ap -2 and ap -4 missles. You can also fire 1 weapon instead of auto exploding a 6d range 12 flamestorm cannon could outdamage in the mortals in some sitautions.
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malamis wrote: Have I missed something or is the +3" range thing really really good when combined with the dpod buff?
Sternguard with combi flamers & 2 heavy flamers benefitting from the -1 ap from tactical doctrine for the price seems *really* nice. Tack on Chaplain and +1 charge trait for a fairly easy 6" charge from a dpod assuming there's anything left from 8d6 ap 1 flamer shots on turn 2.
My Soul Drinkers ride again it seems
I'd probably just stick with the combi flamers. The flamers auto hit so you can also fire the bolters without hurting your flamer shots. 20 ap-1 hitting on 4's and 10d6 ap -1 autohits. Pretty dang brutal. It also gives you a little bit more flexibility in targets. As you can rapid fire at 13" and flamers only get 11". They also need to clarfity if rapid fire rounds up or down when you rapid fire on a 13.5.
Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.
Skullhammer wrote: Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.
He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.
Skullhammer wrote: Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.
Can you explain what you mean by smurfs suplement?
You mean +3 range and fall back and shoot? If ao he played that incorrectly
If you mean +3 range, another legal sucessor triat and scions of Guilliman that is unfortunately legal.
It's a shame most of the special charictors arn't exactlly powerful enough to make playing as the supplements actual chapter worthwhile, it's basically you tailor your sucessor traits for your list and get the super dotrine you wanted anyway.
He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.
You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.
He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.
You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.
That's not how it works I don't think. I still dont have the codex yet nor the supplement, BUT as far as my research said they would only be Successors in name only rather than by rules, which is the factor here.
That's not how it works I don't think. I still dont have the codex yet nor the supplement, BUT as far as my research said they would only be Successors in name only rather than by rules, which is the factor here.
Per the supplements, a successor chapter can link itself to a first founding chapter and get access to their super-doctrine and their strategems. They have to pay additional CP to access the chapter specific relics.
Its the trade off. First founders get the characters and easier access to relics. Successors get flexibility in their CTs.
So, anyone seen the wording of the White Scars Encircle stratagem? It says White Scars UNIT... which means that RAW you can outflank a Leviathan Dreadnought or a Spartan. I suppose that this is going to be FAQ'ed to be just like the Space Wolves version that only allows infantry to use this stratagem though.
yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that. I've always felt that space marine chapters/chaos warbands where a bit of a two headed beast for GW, they want to have sucessor chapters factor into the thing in big ways and people appreciate being able to run "your dudes" but at the same time there's a lot of intreast in the first founders due to the HH books. this seems to be a good balance
BrianDavion wrote: yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that.
Hopefully. I still think that those chapters that have a decent special character chapter master have a big advantage, and even more so in a case of Calgar. There is so much good stratagems now and you can no longer reasonably use an ally CP battery, so the CP are really valuable. I would rather buy my chapter master with points than CP. Compared to a successor Ultras start with four CP more, and it gets even more lopsided if you compare them to a non-ultra successor chapter which do not even get Ultra CP regeneration shenanigans.
I have just had a look at the new codex and the doctrines. If I want to run a detachment Royal 32 or an auxiliary detachment with one vindicare Assassin, does the rest of the army loses the doctrines?
Moebius5 wrote: I have just had a look at the new codex and the doctrines. If I want to run a detachment Royal 32 or an auxiliary detachment with one vindicare Assassin, does the rest of the army loses the doctrines?
Moebius5 wrote: I have just had a look at the new codex and the doctrines. If I want to run a detachment Royal 32 or an auxiliary detachment with one vindicare Assassin, does the rest of the army loses the doctrines?
Unfortunately yes.
I'm quite happy with that to be honest, you now finally get a reward for staying pure without removing a viable possibility for souping.
I think souping will be possiable and viable but it'll massivly impact your build souping with marines isn't going to be a matter of "take the loyal 32 and my army is suddenly better for no cost"
So now that Inceptors have an additional attack and wound per model, should we be looking at Inceptors more? I know that Aggressors went S+ tier, but Assault Bolter Inceptors still seem pretty great.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now that Inceptors have an additional attack and wound per model, should we be looking at Inceptors more? I know that Aggressors went S+ tier, but Assault Bolter Inceptors still seem pretty great.
Inceptors actually didn't get an extra attack, only Aggressors go that, and that was probably because someone finally counted how many power fists they have. But yes, Inceptors indeed seem better. They might survive for a while now. They can drop on objectives, clear and hold them. So basically do what Reivers do, except most likely quite a bit better.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now that Inceptors have an additional attack and wound per model, should we be looking at Inceptors more? I know that Aggressors went S+ tier, but Assault Bolter Inceptors still seem pretty great.
Inceptors actually didn't get an extra attack, only Aggressors go that, and that was probably because someone finally counted how many power fists they have. But yes, Inceptors indeed seem better. They might survive for a while now. They can drop on objectives, clear and hold them. So basically do what Reivers do, except most likely quite a bit better.
Awww crap, I assumed. I really hope the Honoured Sergeant Stratagem is able to be taken on multiple squads, my Aggressor Sergeants need some D2 weapons.
That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.
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BrianDavion wrote: yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that. I've always felt that space marine chapters/chaos warbands where a bit of a two headed beast for GW, they want to have sucessor chapters factor into the thing in big ways and people appreciate being able to run "your dudes" but at the same time there's a lot of intreast in the first founders due to the HH books. this seems to be a good balance
The successors are basically nerfed chapter tactics though. The first founding chapter tactics are all much better than the successor alternative and none are particularly special except for the +3 range.
Skullhammer wrote: Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.
Can you explain what you mean by smurfs suplement?
You mean +3 range and fall back and shoot? If ao he played that incorrectly
If you mean +3 range, another legal sucessor triat and scions of Guilliman that is unfortunately legal.
It's a shame most of the special charictors arn't exactlly powerful enough to make playing as the supplements actual chapter worthwhile, it's basically you tailor your sucessor traits for your list and get the super dotrine you wanted anyway.
It's only legal until the time it takes them to FAQ that. Successor chapters of second founding are going to have the same tactics as their founding. Clearly the intent of the rule IMO.
The successors are basically nerfed chapter tactics though. The first founding chapter tactics are all much better than the successor alternative and none are particularly special except for the +3 range.
maybe on the other hand being able to combine the raven guard cover at over 12 inches ability with some of the ultramarines strats. just for example, could be REALLY good
Xenomancers wrote: That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.
I wouldn't say "catastrophic". You literally lose the same number on guys as before. And the plasma guys did get 4ppm cheaper even with the extra wound.
So while is sucks to lose a guy to a 1, you don't lose any more models just because they have 3Ws now.
Having said that, there is something to say for the Assault bolters now that they are AP2 with the Tactical Doctrine active. Someone should do the math on all 3 weapon options (AP2 bolters vs AP4 standard plasma vs AP4 supercharged plasma).
I personally prefer the plasma because of the versatility, but the fact that you can get 4 Bolter Inceptors for the cost of 3 Plasma makes me tempted to swap
Think it's worth pretty much always sticking a drop pod in? Figure for 210 (? 200ish) points you can get a pod with 4 grav devs that they will need to screen against from turn 1. It's in that zone that allllmost feels cheap enough to be worth it just for flexibility and affecting your opponent's turn 1 deployment alone, but would be an expensive use if they get screened out until late game.
And if you think the base pod is worth it, think it's worth another 100-150pts to fill it or run it cheaper?
Also, since talking plasma inceptors above, while I'd rather shoot with the grav, those devs are going to die almost 3x as fast as inceptors after landing...
Xenomancers wrote: That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.
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BrianDavion wrote: yeah which means we're likely going to see a lot of sucessor chapters in tournies... I'm ok with that. I've always felt that space marine chapters/chaos warbands where a bit of a two headed beast for GW, they want to have sucessor chapters factor into the thing in big ways and people appreciate being able to run "your dudes" but at the same time there's a lot of intreast in the first founders due to the HH books. this seems to be a good balance
The successors are basically nerfed chapter tactics though. The first founding chapter tactics are all much better than the successor alternative and none are particularly special except for the +3 range.
Skullhammer wrote: Not played my marines with this dex yet but i have been on the reciving end, my opponent had multipul squads of intersessors with stalkers, captain (chaptermaster upgrade),liutenant and some heavy hellblasters and just sat back and shot the everliving out of me, -3ap and 2 damage for each stalker shot (dev doctrine) &-5ap on the hellblasters is really brutal. He didnt even need to change the doctrine. He was using successor trait to get +3 range and the smurf suplement, i ran chaos marines yes i know there not the best but even power armour is bearly worth it.
Can you explain what you mean by smurfs suplement?
You mean +3 range and fall back and shoot? If ao he played that incorrectly
If you mean +3 range, another legal sucessor triat and scions of Guilliman that is unfortunately legal.
It's a shame most of the special charictors arn't exactlly powerful enough to make playing as the supplements actual chapter worthwhile, it's basically you tailor your sucessor traits for your list and get the super dotrine you wanted anyway.
It's only legal until the time it takes them to FAQ that. Successor chapters of second founding are going to have the same tactics as their founding. Clearly the intent of the rule IMO.
Yeah I'm not gonna risk playing around with ideas until it's confirmed that's how it works. I'll be sticking with the pure White Scars Tactic on my Minotaurs and Raven Guard on my Raptors.
Unless it's all good. In which case I'll go Stealthy + Long Range Marlsmen on my Raptors, and then POTENTIALLY Hungry For Battle + Whirlwind of Rage on my Minotaurs/Carcharodons.
I got the same impression they did, successors pick their custom tactics and then pick a first founding to copy their super doctrine. I just wasn't near as impressed with the custom tactics as I expected. Basically I'm gonna tinker around with +3" range stuff, but more likely taking a fixed chapter.
...Of course, I'm still just running off preview vids, my codex is still in the mail for a week.
Happy to see custom tactics for successors without representation.
While not perfect, been considering some tactics for Relictors.
-knowledge is power
-Master artisans
Seem like good representation.(preferred enemy chaos was left out because it’s more fluffy than practical. And all chapters really should just get preferred enemy as a freebie anyways).
What do you guys think?
These new books are getting pretty swollen with overly worded rules, but I think the successor super-doctrine thing is pretty clearly cut once you chew through the paragraphs a few times like a dumb flow chart.
1: Super-doctrine: Units with the <First Founding> or <Successor> chapter get it.
2: If your chapter is NOT a First Founding chapter, then it is a Successor chapter.
3: All Successor chapters have one of the First Founding chapters as a parent chapter. If it's a known successor chapter, it must have it's fluffy parent. If it's unknown, it can pick. There's no reason not to pick a parent chapter.
4: If your Successor chapter has the "Primarch's Successor" chapter tactic, then it must have the same parent chapter as it's chapter tactic (so you cant have Iron Hand tactics, as an Ultramarine successor.)
So yeah... its waaaay overly complicated for what it needs to be, but it does effectively say that any successor chapters use their parent chapter's supplement.
Xenomancers wrote: That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.
I wouldn't say "catastrophic". You literally lose the same number on guys as before. And the plasma guys did get 4ppm cheaper even with the extra wound.
So while is sucks to lose a guy to a 1, you don't lose any more models just because they have 3Ws now.
Having said that, there is something to say for the Assault bolters now that they are AP2 with the Tactical Doctrine active. Someone should do the math on all 3 weapon options (AP2 bolters vs AP4 standard plasma vs AP4 supercharged plasma).
I personally prefer the plasma because of the versatility, but the fact that you can get 4 Bolter Inceptors for the cost of 3 Plasma makes me tempted to swap
-
Vs non overcharged you are looking at 24 shots compared to 12. Vs anything but t7 the bolters will out perform I think just running the numbers in my head. Overcharged they outperform vs anything without a 4++ but they are also slaying a model on any 1 or 2 or 3 depending on -1 to hits. The additional 3 wounds in the unit is a big deal though. Plus an additional chance at a mortal wound a on 6 if you decide to charge. No reason not to charge chaff being t5 with a 3+ and each dude is putting out 3 attacks at least and you fly. They can also run as imperial fist and get even more bonus with ignore cover and 6s generating additional hits. Plasma probably better off running iron hands.
McGibs wrote: These new books are getting pretty swollen with overly worded rules, but I think the successor super-doctrine thing is pretty clearly cut once you chew through the paragraphs a few times like a dumb flow chart.
1: Super-doctrine: Units with the <First Founding> or <Successor> chapter get it.
2: If your chapter is NOT a First Founding chapter, then it is a Successor chapter.
3: All Successor chapters have one of the First Founding chapters as a parent chapter. If it's a known successor chapter, it must have it's fluffy parent. If it's unknown, it can pick. There's no reason not to pick a parent chapter.
4: If your Successor chapter has the "Primarch's Successor" chapter tactic, then it must have the same parent chapter as it's chapter tactic (so you cant have Iron Hand tactics, as an Ultramarine successor.)
So yeah... its waaaay overly complicated for what it needs to be, but it does effectively say that any successor chapters use their parent chapter's supplement.
Interesting, I guess when the time comes Relictors get to pick DA or UM
He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.
You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.
I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range. But iirc we can give our custom chapter 2 succesor traits (eg. Stelwart and duelist) and let be them succesors of ultramarines.
He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.
You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.
I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range.
I just read it too and you're wrong. there's also good reason to give sucessor chapters a bit of flex, the raptors are a known ravenguard chapter but are pretty blatently a canidate for the marksmen CT.
IMHO proably the most powerful chapter of marine codex 8.5 is the blood ravens."yeah we can choose to be a sucessor to any chapter and have our own unique stratigium. cause feth you"
He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.
You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.
I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range.
I agree. It's worded pretty complicated, but in the supplement, you only get the First Founding stuff if you chose Ultramarines through Inheritors of the Primarch.
Edit: Rule snippet in question
If the successor Chapter you have chosen
is one established in the background of our
publications, its founding Chapter will often be
known (for example, the Mortifactors Chapter
is a known successor of the Ultramarines). If
the successor Chapter you have chosen does
not have a known founding Chapter but has
the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic,
and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First
Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is
a successor of that First Founding Chapter.
Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that
best fits your successor Chapter’s character.
If your Chapter is a successor of the
Ultramarines, the following rules apply:
Xenomancers wrote: That third wound really makes the plama guys even more risky now. Before losing one to an overcharge was bad but now it's catastrophic. I think the bolter guys are a lot better now.
I wouldn't say "catastrophic". You literally lose the same number on guys as before. And the plasma guys did get 4ppm cheaper even with the extra wound.
So while is sucks to lose a guy to a 1, you don't lose any more models just because they have 3Ws now.
Having said that, there is something to say for the Assault bolters now that they are AP2 with the Tactical Doctrine active. Someone should do the math on all 3 weapon options (AP2 bolters vs AP4 standard plasma vs AP4 supercharged plasma).
I personally prefer the plasma because of the versatility, but the fact that you can get 4 Bolter Inceptors for the cost of 3 Plasma makes me tempted to swap
-
Vs non overcharged you are looking at 24 shots compared to 12. Vs anything but t7 the bolters will out perform I think just running the numbers in my head. Overcharged they outperform vs anything without a 4++ but they are also slaying a model on any 1 or 2 or 3 depending on -1 to hits. The additional 3 wounds in the unit is a big deal though. Plus an additional chance at a mortal wound a on 6 if you decide to charge. No reason not to charge chaff being t5 with a 3+ and each dude is putting out 3 attacks at least and you fly. They can also run as imperial fist and get even more bonus with ignore cover and 6s generating additional hits. Plasma probably better off running iron hands.
Suppressors are an interesting alternative to plasma inceptors. At 30ppm they look like a really solid option for armies like raven guard and decent for anyone else. They hand out nearly the same damage per point as plasma inceptors without the risk of blowing up, though they sacrifice accuracy on the move for (really great) range.
I’ve been drawing up listsamd I’m findong these guys take on the “devastator” role in my army, while my actual heavy support choices are getting filled with stuff like eliminators and maybe a TFC.
I’d like to see some maths on eliminators. Specially, bolt snipers firing Mortis rounds at tough things, compared to las fusils. I’ve got a feeling the Mortis rounds could be as good or better, for their cost, against things like knights, perhaps especially when the sergeant gives the unit +1 to hit and wound.
Look at the stratagen "Fall back and re-engage". It is from UM supplement and have something like that: "(this Stratagem costs 1 CP if that unit has the Codex Discipline Chapter Tactic, otherwise it costs 2 CP).". So it shows that You can use UM stuff using successor chapter not having UM chapter tactics
He doesn't get both the custom traits and the Ultramarines supplement at the same time as far as I'm aware of rules.
You can get most of the stuff in the supplement with a custom trait. You just don't get Ultramarine specific characters and units, and Ultramarine chapter relics cost an extra CP.
It says that if You have I
I just read suplement - succesor chapter is just first founding chapter psinted in different colour. So there is no way to give ultramarines extra +3" range.
I agree. It's worded pretty complicated, but in the supplement, you only get the First Founding stuff if you chose Ultramarines through Inheritors of the Primarch.
Edit: Rule snippet in question
If the successor Chapter you have chosen
is one established in the background of our
publications, its founding Chapter will often be
known (for example, the Mortifactors Chapter
is a known successor of the Ultramarines). If
the successor Chapter you have chosen does
not have a known founding Chapter but has
the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic,
and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First
Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is
a successor of that First Founding Chapter.
Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that
best fits your successor Chapter’s character.
If your Chapter is a successor of the
Ultramarines, the following rules apply:
It says that if You chokse Inheritors you cannot be successor chapter of different FFC than the one you get CT from.
You are free to choose two SCT and say Your parents are UM and use their stuff from supplement
I don't suppose anyone with access to the codex can confirm whether the new Terminator Ancient has exactly the same banner rules as the others please? I'm expecting it to be the same, but i've not seen it mentioned anywhere.
Kdash wrote: I don't suppose anyone with access to the codex can confirm whether the new Terminator Ancient has exactly the same banner rules as the others please? I'm expecting it to be the same, but i've not seen it mentioned anywhere.
So... what successor CT would be best for UM successor chapter? I was thinking about reroll ones to hit with bolt weapon and benefit of cover while more than one feet. I only collect primaris stuff so it would nicely work with vanguard chars and eliminators as they have camo cloaks and troops
So, with the points drops, my Minotaurs Primaris force gained a couple of models. However, I'm currently running them as Crimson Fists (to take advantage of the Vigilus detatchment and the anti horde capability skyrocket with them)
My current army is thus:
Captain in Gravis
Primaris Lieutenant with power sword
Primaris Chaplain
5 MSU intercessors
6 man intercessor squad, power sword sarge
Primaris ancient
Primaris Apothacary
6 man aggressor squad with flamestorm
3 MSU inceptors with bolters
3 MSU hellblasters with Incinerators
That's 2000pts on the dot, and 15CP for being a Brigade. I'm taking them to a tournament in September which gives 1CP for on time list entry, so what can I add, relic/warlord trait wise to really power up this force? I know "chapter master" is a gimme for 2CP, so what can I do with the rest of the CP/models I have?
Kdash wrote: I don't suppose anyone with access to the codex can confirm whether the new Terminator Ancient has exactly the same banner rules as the others please? I'm expecting it to be the same, but i've not seen it mentioned anywhere.
So basica idea is here you get a lot of bolter re-rolls. Re-roll 1's to hit and on top of that re-roll one to hit and wound and 1's in general (lieutenants) plus with ultas they can move and bolterdrill from turn 2.
His army was from memory:
4 russes with HB, 3 sentinels, 4 bassies, 3 support squads (mortars, 2x missile), 60 inf, las/plas.
12" deployment, vital intel.
Some thoughts:
1. we gave up turn 3, he went first and it was obvious he'd win if we kept playing.
2. biggest thing is this new update (as i guessed) makes marines more killy but just as fragile as before. My preds were crippled turn one from bassies... he just picked me apart with shooting. Think this is the biggest takeway from this post, i'm probably going to take stealthy from now on. marines need protection.
3. Maybe its my army but defo felt a bit helpless in the movement department so i was kinda left in a bit of a gunline vs gunline standoff i had no hope of winning.
4. Shock attack is a bit wild, even scouts going in have so many attacks its a bit nuts
5. With the traits i took and all the new rules and strats (new codex syndrome aside) there is a lot to remember for marines, almost to much so you forget key things you can do now.
6. Doctrines really add to the killy, esp with my army and the amount of bolters i have. Just felt very much 'not enough' in this game, he still outgunned me easily.
don't this code is gonna change the cookie cutter marine lists and make armies like mine (more fluffy) any more viable... which is crazy because on paper they are scary... but as i said on the table you can't use that scary if ye dead.
So basica idea is here you get a lot of bolter re-rolls. Re-roll 1's to hit and on top of that re-roll one to hit and wound and 1's in general (lieutenants) plus with ultas they can move and bolterdrill from turn 2.
His army was from memory:
4 russes with HB, 3 sentinels, 4 bassies, 3 support squads (mortars, 2x missile), 60 inf, las/plas.
12" deployment, vital intel.
Some thoughts:
1. we gave up turn 3, he went first and it was obvious he'd win if we kept playing.
2. biggest thing is this new update (as i guessed) makes marines more killy but just as fragile as before. My preds were crippled turn one from bassies... he just picked me apart with shooting. Think this is the biggest takeway from this post, i'm probably going to take stealthy from now on. marines need protection.
3. Maybe its my army but defo felt a bit helpless in the movement department so i was kinda left in a bit of a gunline vs gunline standoff i had no hope of winning.
4. Shock attack is a bit wild, even scouts going in have so many attacks its a bit nuts
5. With the traits i took and all the new rules and strats (new codex syndrome aside) there is a lot to remember for marines, almost to much so you forget key things you can do now.
6. Doctrines really add to the killy, esp with my army and the amount of bolters i have. Just felt very much 'not enough' in this game, he still outgunned me easily.
don't this code is gonna change the cookie cutter marine lists and make armies like mine (more fluffy) any more viable... which is crazy because on paper they are scary... but as i said on the table you can't use that scary if ye dead.
Yeah marines are still fragile, also not to e down on your list but it could really do with some reworking as with the same models you have rearranged you could be double battalion, and the new codex really needs CP, prepaired possitions turn one probably would have seriously improved your ability to punch back.
Predators are still rather sad on the table top, they just dont have the T, armour or Wounds to feel like a MBT.
omg totally forgot prepared positions in the fuss of remembering all the new rules!
yea its a bit of a list in development and mainly the stuff i own for marines (more of a chaos guy).
If i ran double battalion i'd have to run all those units in 5 man which for stuff like the Intercessors is a pain because you can't do something like the rapid fire 2 strat on all 10 of them or if made them assault botlers (thinking of doing that) then couldent use the auto hit on all 10 of them.
Might make the bolter scouts into two units of 5, swap the stern guard to be 2 5 man tacs with a lascannon and then run dual battalion. prob ditch the drop pod and the dread and run two razor backs with assault cannons or las. prob goes a long way to making this army better
I just noticed that Black Templar initiates still cost 13 points and have not had the same reduction to 12 points that tactical marines had. Hardly the end of the world, but a touch odd. I know they are not identical and have different set ups and squad options. Only adds a few points to my 1000 points list, but a bit odd.
Hi just been reading my new dex and UM book and wondered if people could help me out. In the options for intercessor sergeants it says “can be equipped with 1 of the following INSTEAD OF a...” then lists the different bolt rifles and gives option of a chain sword and hand flamer. Then it says “if the sergeant IS NOT EQUIPPED WITH A CHAINSWORD...” and says that he can take options from his war gear list including TH and PF. Does this mean an Intercessor sarge can’t have good melee weapons and keep his bolt rifle or only if he doesn’t have a chain sword?
This is just my experience so take with a grain of salt. A lot of space marine units are best when taken en mass and you really need to overload your opponent ability to kill high toughness units to have a chance as marines because you don't have invos.
So I'm probably gonna start all my builds with 3x Vindicator 3x Redemptor dread. That is A LOT of freaking high wound high toughness models for the points and you are covering all your bases. Tons of daka and some good high str firepower too. Great CC ability - good AA ability.
Thats 850 points.
Those are gonna be the core of most my lists I think.
I run vidicators in my black templars list. Played a 1500 pt game yesterday with 2 of them. T1 they moved up and failed to do anything of note (4 wounds to a forgefiend). Then 1 got blown away by a defiler (tsons souped up defiler with double las cannon). 2nd vindicator blew the defiler away 2nd turn (4 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 14 dmg, boom baby) and it never took a wound rest of the game. For 125 pts they are a killer deal i think, especially with a marine force that can put sooo much pressure on the opponent t1.
Anyone else planning on giving the master-crafted thunder hammer on a veteran intercessor screening a chapter master. Sounds a good deal points wise. 33 points for 5 4dmg TH attacks. Maybe not for super competitive tables, but a nasty addition. They hit as hard as captain's used to before the new codex. Also gravis captain has it's place in repulsor. Almost daemon prince equivalent damage if buffed a bit. Still not super comp, but a nice carnifex who can sneeze some wounds of a knight. Sad that 5+ intercessor veterans cost 2cp, maybe a 5man unit is enough. If I don't put them in Impulsor, You could fit two invixtus honor guard in the repulsor with the gravis cpt and vet intercessors
At the moment I'm trying to decide what the best option for Fast Attack with my Iron Hands is. Ideally I'd like to get my hands on some Tarantulas, but FW isn't cheap. At the moment I'm thinking of a mix of Assault Squads and Bike Squads for relatively little points investment, but at least some usefulness.
I may have to pickup some Landspeeders or Attack Bikes just to fill slots, I'm not sure either of them are particularly useful.
I'm gonna experiment with a smash Chaplain with the self-buff Litany and the Relic Crozius. With a bit of luck BT will end up with bonuses to Chaplains since we don't have psykers.
That’s interesting about the vindicators. I was thinking they look like a pretty durable unit for their price, with quite a lot of T8 wounds. Now they always get d6 shots they’re kind of like an IK thermal cannon for a small fraction of the cost.
tksolway wrote: At the moment I'm trying to decide what the best option for Fast Attack with my Iron Hands is. Ideally I'd like to get my hands on some Tarantulas, but FW isn't cheap. At the moment I'm thinking of a mix of Assault Squads and Bike Squads for relatively little points investment, but at least some usefulness.
I may have to pickup some Landspeeders or Attack Bikes just to fill slots, I'm not sure either of them are particularly useful.
Supressors will work best with iron hands. They are getting a devastator super doctrine and they have heavy weapons. Land speeders with cyclone and HB aren't bad ether and provide late game mobility.
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Xirax wrote: Anyone else planning on giving the master-crafted thunder hammer on a veteran intercessor screening a chapter master. Sounds a good deal points wise. 33 points for 5 4dmg TH attacks. Maybe not for super competitive tables, but a nasty addition. They hit as hard as captain's used to before the new codex. Also gravis captain has it's place in repulsor. Almost daemon prince equivalent damage if buffed a bit. Still not super comp, but a nice carnifex who can sneeze some wounds of a knight. Sad that 5+ intercessor veterans cost 2cp, maybe a 5man unit is enough. If I don't put them in Impulsor, You could fit two invixtus honor guard in the repulsor with the gravis cpt and vet intercessors
Personally it's a waste. "Oh what intercessor squad has the 4 damage thunder hammer in it?"
"That one"
"Okay first ravager is shooting there and I have 2 more"
Just give him a power fist and be happy with that.
I don't get why people are saying you can take the successor and take a second tactic. The successor thing specifically says you don't get to take a second trait if you choose it?
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
They are worth a look but why would you take over a redemptor dread? Close to same price. Dakka version has way more dakka and it smashes in CC. The las version is about 50 more points than a venerable dread wih 2 las and a rocket that hits on 2s... Vindi IMO has always been a better choice over a pred. Now with d6 shots it is a very easy choice.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Please provide the citation that those additional hits are considered to be 6's.
They are just additional hits, they are not "unmodified hit roll of 6", you still have to roll to wound. But this is not a tactics question this really should have been a YMDC.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
No FAQ required. A 6 on those weapons generates a hit that doesn't auto wound and 1 that does.
tksolway wrote: At the moment I'm trying to decide what the best option for Fast Attack with my Iron Hands is. Ideally I'd like to get my hands on some Tarantulas, but FW isn't cheap. At the moment I'm thinking of a mix of Assault Squads and Bike Squads for relatively little points investment, but at least some usefulness.
I may have to pickup some Landspeeders or Attack Bikes just to fill slots, I'm not sure either of them are particularly useful.
I was thinking about Tarantulas too. (Is there decent third party versions? I think Kromlech might have some... Any others?) Marines have surprisingly few Fast Attack choices, and if you play pure Primaris, even less. I still don't get why Reivers are Elites. They're not 'elite' at all, but with their deployment and move shenanigans they can certainly be considered fast. If they were FA they could at least fill FA slots in a Brigade, even though they're relatively useless otherwise.
If I could score couple of these new walker pilots, I guess I could try to shove them into a Land Speeder... What's a decent loadout for a Land Speeder these days?
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Please provide the citation that those additional hits are considered to be 6's.
They are just additional hits, they are not "unmodified hit roll of 6", you still have to roll to wound. But this is not a tactics question this really should have been a YMDC.
Orodhen wrote: Are Predators w/ Autocannons better now that they get an extra AP first turn?
Yes. General rule is that weapons with lower AP benefit the most from the added penetration (AP-1 to AP-2 is a better benefit than AP-3 to AP-4).
Has anyone seen any rules that contradict the following? IF/CF get 2 hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, marksman bolt carbines autowound on an unmodified 6 to hit - does this mean each hit roll of 6 is now two autowounds?
Pretty sure there is an FAQ somewhere that says that even on autowound on 6 weapons any generated hits still need to roll to wound but I could be wrong.
No FAQ required. A 6 on those weapons generates a hit that doesn't auto wound and 1 that does.
Thanks for clarifying - was sure it was too good to be true
davou wrote: I don't get why people are saying you can take the successor and take a second tactic. The successor thing specifically says you don't get to take a second trait if you choose it?
You're confusing being a successor with having Inheritors of the Primarch.
Fifty wrote: I just noticed that Black Templar initiates still cost 13 points and have not had the same reduction to 12 points that tactical marines had. Hardly the end of the world, but a touch odd. I know they are not identical and have different set ups and squad options. Only adds a few points to my 1000 points list, but a bit odd.
Its the same for DA, BA, and SW, there are no point reductions. I believe BT will get a point reduction after the supplement comes out (their own book or added to Imperial Fist who knows )
davou wrote: I don't get why people are saying you can take the successor and take a second tactic. The successor thing specifically says you don't get to take a second trait if you choose it?
Two different things. A custom chapter can use one of the first founding traits, in which case it doesnt get a second one and is automatically counted as a successor of the chapter it took the trait of.
A custom chapter can alternatively take two traits off the custom traits table, so long as one isnt Inheritors of the Primarch. It may then declare itself a succssor chapter of any First Founding chapter and gain access to its relics, strategems and super-doctrine.
Whilst waiting for my book to arrive, I've been pondering all the news.
What are people's thoughts about relic scorpius? How does it interact with scions of guilliman and the shoot twice strat? I know it's cheeky, but I'm thinking that shooting 4 times per turn with extra ap on turn 1 sounds hilarious.
So I have just understood that you can play an UM successor chapter and still you their supplement and get Scions of Guilliman.
That's huge ! Especially for armoured lists: land speeders FINALLY able to move and shoot ? Tanks without any -1 to shoot and able to withdraw from assault ?
UM armies gonna run vehicles !
Like, can I make a Scions of the forge + master artisan and say they are UM successors and use the Scions of Guilliman while in Tactical Doctrine ?
iron hands. They are getting a devastator super doctrine
Is this a rumor, or do you have a source?
The people who gave overall correct rumors regarding this codex apparently said that the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands had the strongest ones and implied that it was because it related to the Devastator Doctrine as it's an early benefit.
Mandragola wrote: That’s interesting about the vindicators. I was thinking they look like a pretty durable unit for their price, with quite a lot of T8 wounds. Now they always get d6 shots they’re kind of like an IK thermal cannon for a small fraction of the cost.
Even better IMO. It's S10 compared to the Thermal Cannons' S9 and it's a flat D3 instead of Dd6 which means more reliability,.
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godardc wrote: I won't have a codex until the 26th so... Is the tremor shell stratagem still here ?
Put me down for the Iron Hand bonus being that while they're in devastator they get a 5+++ FNP. That would be incredible good and easily place them at the top of marines barring some really stellar options from other chapters. It would also add up with some comments made by FLG about how they were notably durable which I'm not sure would be said with just a 6+++.
Imperial Fists on the other hand I'm not too sure what their bonus could be. I'm thinking perhaps they count as being in cover while in dev doctrine.
Has anyone tried a drop pod yet? I’m still thinking 200some points for the ability to drop grav devs turn 1 onward seems pretty good. It’ll do some serious damage if ignored, but isn’t too many wasted points if screened out until late.
Seems like a good addition, but then I’ve got so many “seems like a good addition” units I want to include there went all my points for the core stuff... :p
Mandragola wrote: That’s interesting about the vindicators. I was thinking they look like a pretty durable unit for their price, with quite a lot of T8 wounds. Now they always get d6 shots they’re kind of like an IK thermal cannon for a small fraction of the cost.
Even better IMO. It's S10 compared to the Thermal Cannons' S9 and it's a flat D3 instead of Dd6 which means more reliability,.
So the more I think about it the more I am coming around to suppressors. 90 points for the squad they are very comparable to hellblasters and largely seem to outshine them all the while being cheaper. 165 points gets you five hellblasters with 5-10 shots that while they can move and shoot at no penalty they are also required to overcharge against big threats (risky) and only get 10 shots at 15 inches or less.
Alternatively, you can get 6 suppressors for just 180 points to spit out 12 s7 ap-2 (3 with dev doctrine) flat 2 damage shots up to 48 inches away all the while having no chance of killing themselves. In addition they do have fly if they need it. I really feel like suppressors are going to shine big time with devastator doctrine focused chapters.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Put me down for the Iron Hand bonus being that while they're in devastator they get a 5+++ FNP. That would be incredible good and easily place them at the top of marines barring some really stellar options from other chapters. It would also add up with some comments made by FLG about how they were notably durable which I'm not sure would be said with just a 6+++.
Imperial Fists on the other hand I'm not too sure what their bonus could be. I'm thinking perhaps they count as being in cover while in dev doctrine.
iron hands. They are getting a devastator super doctrine
Is this a rumor, or do you have a source?
The people who gave overall correct rumors regarding this codex apparently said that the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands had the strongest ones and implied that it was because it related to the Devastator Doctrine as it's an early benefit.
Yeah on one of the podcasts they stated iron hands and salamanders are going to hit like trucks. Waiting for those supps myself to see which one I want to build.
Azuza001 wrote: I run vidicators in my black templars list. Played a 1500 pt game yesterday with 2 of them. T1 they moved up and failed to do anything of note (4 wounds to a forgefiend). Then 1 got blown away by a defiler (tsons souped up defiler with double las cannon). 2nd vindicator blew the defiler away 2nd turn (4 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 14 dmg, boom baby) and it never took a wound rest of the game. For 125 pts they are a killer deal i think, especially with a marine force that can put sooo much pressure on the opponent t1.
You need Chapter master to make them worth it. Ofc their damage is higly variable with random shots and damage. The Averages are pretty high. 2 of them firing at a forge fiend should have netted. 5 hits (with rerolls) with 3 wounds and 7 damage after invo saves.
I do run a chapter master. He is a primaris captain with the vox upgrade for a 9" reroll bubble since the templars lost our crusaders helm :( .
Now for 2cp though its silly to not upgrade i think. I was happy paying 3cp for the ability... lol.
Yeah they are swingy but they only have to shine once and suddenly your opponent will be dealthy afraid of them. I was running 3 before, i miss the loss of the strat (pulling the template out in 8th edition always made my opponents puzzled then scared, how dare i use a template weapon in 8th edition! Lol) but still 3 of them are just as nasty now. That change to d6 shots is terrific.
It really seems there really isn't a tactical army for just mainline troops yet where they have extreme survivability. Though i am surprised we didn't have any tactical squad stratagems.
Also do people think tactical squads and grav weapons are finally worth taking?
Given the way things were going, did not expect to be tempted to have to buy yet more Rhino chassis vehicles...Think you can just add the Vindicator's cannon and dozer blade section onto an existing Rhino or would the front connection not work properly?
Tacticals are totally worth it if your running drop pods i think. They still are 3+ 1w models so you cant throw them out wherever you want but getting that squad right on the front lines t1 or behind enemy lines garunteed t2 or 3 is a very useful ability.
Grav cannon deviststors seem very good too as long as you have the cp to keep feeding them.
I think the real winner is the thunderfire cannon. Dropped a bit in cost, and if you can keep feeding it 2cp a turn this thing fires 8d3 str 5 ap-1 (ap-2 turn 1) dmg 1 at 48" no los needed? Heck yeah.... i just love this thing.
Or a whirlwind with the castallen launcher? 4d6str 6 ap-1 (t1) 1dmg? These things could just remove screens like they were made from paper on their own... granted thats all with a single strat, but still... i like it a lot.
Almost 20 intercessors
15 hell blasters
6 aggressors
10 of the shadowspear troops
3 bolt inceptors
Apothecary
Ancient
Suppressors
Eliminators
10 reivers, half different loadouts
2 dreads opposite loadouts
Repulsor Las'd out
6 aggressors
Stormhawk is my only non primaris and I hope to keep it that way
dogfender wrote: I’m still a bit unclear how the blood ravens chapter tactics work with also selecting a second and also a successor.
Could someone clarify?
The Blood Ravens tactic is now part of the list of successor chapter traits. As such, you can now pick any 2 from the list or use Inheritors of the Primarch to just copy 1 of the fixed Chapter traits. I.E Ultramarines trait. (btw this has also made me realise I shouldn’t ever consider buying WD’s just for rules releases).
After that, you can pick which 1st founding Chapter you want to be a successor of. If you use Inheritors then you have to pick the Chapter that matches the trait you chose. If you don’t, then you can pick any Chapter and then use their supplement.
So what do you think, is full a full primaris army viable now? Not planning to win at top tables but would like to do reasonably well.
I have literally nothing at the moment so given a clean slate, what kind of army would work reasonably well? I'm partial to Imperial Fists so something that would make the most out of their chapter traits. Speaking of chapter traits, do you suppose they are getting even better special rules in their eventual supplement?
Weazel wrote: So what do you think, is full a full primaris army viable now? Not planning to win at top tables but would like to do reasonably well.
I have literally nothing at the moment so given a clean slate, what kind of army would work reasonably well? I'm partial to Imperial Fists so something that would make the most out of their chapter traits. Speaking of chapter traits, do you suppose they are getting even better special rules in their eventual supplement?
The newer codex seems to favour mixing and matching old and new marine's for best output, but can mainly primaris work sure as can mainly old marines the codex is actually at a baseline to be casually viable, by that I mean it's not going to be meta defining but you can build an army with some units you like for flavour and build out from the core battalion with your TAC list.
Azuza001 wrote: I run vidicators in my black templars list. Played a 1500 pt game yesterday with 2 of them. T1 they moved up and failed to do anything of note (4 wounds to a forgefiend). Then 1 got blown away by a defiler (tsons souped up defiler with double las cannon). 2nd vindicator blew the defiler away 2nd turn (4 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 14 dmg, boom baby) and it never took a wound rest of the game. For 125 pts they are a killer deal i think, especially with a marine force that can put sooo much pressure on the opponent t1.
You need Chapter master to make them worth it. Ofc their damage is higly variable with random shots and damage. The Averages are pretty high. 2 of them firing at a forge fiend should have netted. 5 hits (with rerolls) with 3 wounds and 7 damage after invo saves.
7 damages for 250 pts + rerolls (so a Chapter Master) seems terribly weak.
Azuza001 wrote: I run vidicators in my black templars list. Played a 1500 pt game yesterday with 2 of them. T1 they moved up and failed to do anything of note (4 wounds to a forgefiend). Then 1 got blown away by a defiler (tsons souped up defiler with double las cannon). 2nd vindicator blew the defiler away 2nd turn (4 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 14 dmg, boom baby) and it never took a wound rest of the game. For 125 pts they are a killer deal i think, especially with a marine force that can put sooo much pressure on the opponent t1.
You need Chapter master to make them worth it. Ofc their damage is higly variable with random shots and damage. The Averages are pretty high. 2 of them firing at a forge fiend should have netted. 5 hits (with rerolls) with 3 wounds and 7 damage after invo saves.
7 damages for 250 pts + rerolls (so a Chapter Master) seems terribly weak.
7 dmg is the average without a chapter master.
Doing quick/dirty math
2 of them on average get 7 shots. Bs 3 rerolling thats gonna net you 6 hits. Wounding vs t9 - t 6 thats going to be 4 wounds. Assuming 5++ save thats 3 that get through for an average of 10-11 dmg.
The things to keep in mind are
1. Its a swingy weapon platform d6 shots with d6dmg can equal anywhere between 1 and 36 dmg if everything hit and wounded.
2. Its range is only 24", so at least t1 your going to be moving and shooting so bs becomes 4+.
3. No invulnerable and only a 3+ save means if they get past your t8 your gonna have a bad day.
But i think they are still worth it. Their threat potential is high. As a distraction unit a few of them moving up the center will get shot at. Or as a flank holding unit they will do well. And 125 is a very good cost for it. What else for 125 pts has the damage potential of 4 las cannons?
godardc wrote: So is it legal to fire a thunderfire twice (using the fire twice stratagem stratagem) including a tremor shell ?
You can, yes. The tremor shells stratagem lasts for the duration of the phase.
On the previous page I posted this question:
ewar wrote: Whilst waiting for my book to arrive, I've been pondering all the news.
What are people's thoughts about relic scorpius? How does it interact with scions of guilliman and the shoot twice strat? I know it's cheeky, but I'm thinking that shooting 4 times per turn with extra ap on turn 1 sounds hilarious.
I'm hoping the shoot again strat would activate the scorpius' native ability to shoot twice if it didn't move. 12 D3 indirect shots is very juicy...
godardc wrote: So is it legal to fire a thunderfire twice (using the fire twice stratagem stratagem) including a tremor shell ?
You can, yes. The tremor shells stratagem lasts for the duration of the phase.
On the previous page I posted this question:
ewar wrote: Whilst waiting for my book to arrive, I've been pondering all the news.
What are people's thoughts about relic scorpius? How does it interact with scions of guilliman and the shoot twice strat? I know it's cheeky, but I'm thinking that shooting 4 times per turn with extra ap on turn 1 sounds hilarious.
I'm hoping the shoot again strat would activate the scorpius' native ability to shoot twice if it didn't move. 12 D3 indirect shots is very juicy...
It's been covered and it's not worded as shoot twice it's an additional time no x2 x2 its x2+1 2 regular whirlwind are cheaper.
I'm not too excited about this whirlwind strata. The best I would think would be the vengence launcher getting 4d3 str 7 ap-2 (dev doc) flat 2 damage. That is only 80 points for that damage which is really good however - it's another CP sink that I don't think I can afford. I think later in the game fighting twice with a MOH character is going to be far better use of CP and these things aren't worth taking without the stratagem (TFC/WW). Some list I think will make good use of them but I think I'll pass.
Azuza001 wrote: I run vidicators in my black templars list. Played a 1500 pt game yesterday with 2 of them. T1 they moved up and failed to do anything of note (4 wounds to a forgefiend). Then 1 got blown away by a defiler (tsons souped up defiler with double las cannon). 2nd vindicator blew the defiler away 2nd turn (4 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 14 dmg, boom baby) and it never took a wound rest of the game. For 125 pts they are a killer deal i think, especially with a marine force that can put sooo much pressure on the opponent t1.
You need Chapter master to make them worth it. Ofc their damage is higly variable with random shots and damage. The Averages are pretty high. 2 of them firing at a forge fiend should have netted. 5 hits (with rerolls) with 3 wounds and 7 damage after invo saves.
7 damages for 250 pts + rerolls (so a Chapter Master) seems terribly weak.
7 dmg is the average without a chapter master.
Doing quick/dirty math
2 of them on average get 7 shots. Bs 3 rerolling thats gonna net you 6 hits. Wounding vs t9 - t 6 thats going to be 4 wounds. Assuming 5++ save thats 3 that get through for an average of 10-11 dmg.
The things to keep in mind are
1. Its a swingy weapon platform d6 shots with d6dmg can equal anywhere between 1 and 36 dmg if everything hit and wounded.
2. Its range is only 24", so at least t1 your going to be moving and shooting so bs becomes 4+.
3. No invulnerable and only a 3+ save means if they get past your t8 your gonna have a bad day.
But i think they are still worth it. Their threat potential is high. As a distraction unit a few of them moving up the center will get shot at. Or as a flank holding unit they will do well. And 125 is a very good cost for it. What else for 125 pts has the damage potential of 4 las cannons?
Ah ok I see, 10-11 is way better, and 7 without CM is still acceptable. Especially on T9.
Thank you.
I guess I'm still not used to the change from 7th to 9th: it used to be able to clean troops while now it's an antitank platform.
What are the best anti infantry units except for the obvious aggressors ? Scout bikers ? Intercessors ? Vanguard veterans with chainsaws ?
Xenomancers wrote: I'm not too excited about this whirlwind strata. The best I would think would be the vengence launcher getting 4d3 str 7 ap-2 (dev doc) flat 2 damage. That is only 80 points for that damage which is really good however - it's another CP sink that I don't think I can afford. I think later in the game fighting twice with a MOH character is going to be far better use of CP and these things aren't worth taking without the stratagem (TFC/WW). Some list I think will make good use of them but I think I'll pass.
Some lists for sure can make good use of then. Imperial fist ww's with devastator doctrine can do some work. Ignoring cover and -2 ap is pretty nice against tau. Also tremor shell tfc can really hamper big blocks of assaulters like genestealers and demons if those are giving you trouble.
That being said I'm not sure I'd bring them in an all comers list unless the armies mentioned above are running rampant in your areA
godardc wrote: What are the best anti infantry units except for the obvious aggressors ? Scout bikers ? Intercessors ? Vanguard veterans with chainsaws ?
Eh, i typically run 3 whirlwinds and 2 thunderfire cannons. I love the artillety bombardments, use them to clear chaff / targets the enemy is trying to hide early game. The strat allows me to cut them down to 2 whirlwinds and 2 tfc or 3 whirlwinds and a tfc. This leaves me points to spend somewhere else to get me to full batallion size. So this makes me happy.
I do love 2d3 str 7 ap-2 2dmg shots, using the strat your getting almost armiget levels of fire output for half the cost and some cp. Its all about how you want to spend that cp.
godardc wrote: What are the best anti infantry units except for the obvious aggressors ? Scout bikers ? Intercessors ? Vanguard veterans with chainsaws ?
Sicaran Punishers maybe?
Space marines have no shortage of anti infantry options. Redemptor dread is great for it too but can also smash tanks. Devestator cents aren't bad...can even take gravcannons and huricanes for 70 points now. 2 less shots but far more deadly.
Looking for advice on the best Repulsor loadout, just picked one up and am in the process of assembling. I'd like to avoid magnets if I could (I know, I know) but that's how I roll.
Also for those with the codex, do the aggressors benefit from IF's explosive umodified 6's? I know the weapon says "Bolt" in the name but I don't have the codex yet to check for sure.
On the topic of Cents. What about assault Cents. They have been forced upon us as they are now so good you gotta try to make them work.
Start with the obvious - they really are just a dev cent for cheaper but you are trading HB for flamers. That is normally a bad trade off but you are saving 18 points in the process but at the same time you are picking up basically a dreadnaughts CC ability. Plus those flamers are no joke as they also stack with your bolters in tactical doctrine. How the heck am I going to get these guys in possition though?
First I was thinking redeemer...I want to take a redeemer because as ultras I can fall back and shoot it then I can detonate it in their lines when it dies. It sounds fun. However, I don't think it's practical 10"+12" on firestorms is no guarantee this thing will shoot turn 1 and really no guarantee the dudes inside will be able to charge turn 2 ether.
So now I am thinking that a storm raven is the best option. Just keeping it cheap with HB and assault cannons you are at about 280 points (don't remember the exact amount). Can fit 4 Assault cents in there. Or 3 cents plus some characters. Anyone have insite into this? Interested to hear Ideas.
As Ultras I will be able to protect that storm raven turn 1 with tiggy -1 to hit. That is a nice bonus.
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Facisminthe41m wrote: Looking for advice on the best Repulsor loadout, just picked one up and am in the process of assembling. I'd like to avoid magnets if I could (I know, I know) but that's how I roll.
Also for those with the codex, do the aggressors benefit from IF's explosive umodified 6's? I know the weapon says "Bolt" in the name but I don't have the codex yet to check for sure.
I don't have the codex here but the bolt weapons list is quite long. I am sure they are on there.
Assault centurions have gained enormously in the book. A 23 point price cut, an attack (really two thanks to the new angels of death rules) and a wound. On the charge 3 of them get 13 S10 D3 attacks at -4 ap. that unit is 156 points.
Storm ravens are pretty good. The strat to make them auto explode is a bit of a cheeky one because they can fly right into the enemy, who are then kind of stuffed either way.
If playing white scars there’s a strat to disembark after moving - though not from a flyer and you can’t charge. But you could have five of these guys and a character in a crusader - though the character probably couldn’t get out as I think the strat just covers one unit. So you’ll only be able to fire your ten flamers and 60 hurricane bolter shots.
I’ve actually got three of these guys painted up for my Crimson Fists. I might get more.
Btw, looking at the successor chapter tactics.. 2x 5man sternguard's in a drop pod with 2x heavy flamer. Chapter tactics +3 range and let's say reroll ones on bolt weapons. Might be a good screen begone drop. It's 273 points though. Four hesvy flamers S5 AP-1 D1 on an average roll can do nice damage. Or what do you think? All the way grav devs?
Xirax wrote: Btw, looking at the successor chapter tactics.. 2x 5man sternguard's in a drop pod with 2x heavy flamer. Chapter tactics +3 range and let's say reroll ones on bolt weapons. Might be a good screen begone drop. It's 273 points though. Four hesvy flamers S5 AP-1 D1 on an average roll can do nice damage. Or what do you think? All the way grav devs?
Full combi flamers is the way I would go. The drop pods cost makes the unit terrible though. Just think for the price of that unit and what you can get for that price. You could have a dakka repulsor.
I was trying to write a themed list, like full orbital attack with pods and flyers. First, would you think it's possible and not sub par ?
Stormravens are pretty fragile I think (that's why I wouldn't put centurions in it if I were you, Xenomancer !) and I only play marines, no primaris.
Was thinking of two or three scouts units, and 3 or 4*5 Tac with plasma combi plasma in pods (to get 6 Troops).
An antitank stormraven, probably company veterans with stormbolters and chainswords in a pod or in the stormraven (?), and jump packs vv with a chaplain and a jump pack chapter master with the teeth of Terra.
I would take +1 to charge chapter tactics.
Drop the chap t1 and the vv T2 to use his litany.
Fast attacks would be scout bike squads.
Maybe an ironclad in the stormraven for more AT ?
Maybe even a land speeder with two multi melta if using the Scions of Guilliman ?
Not sure about the vv but now with 4A each and +3 to charge it should be good, and efficient in troops killing, as would be the scout bikers.
hotsauceman1 wrote: You can fire a Scorpius 4 times. It says it chosen to fire again
An additional is again not 2x2 it's 2+1, at best technically the scorpius's rocket barrage weapon could be said RAW to limit it to only being able to fire twice in the shooting phase so actually the strategum would not allow it to shoot even a third time.
Anyone planning on trying out a termite assault drill now they have angels of death? They seem insanely good for the price now (points not cash), and even if they are just dropping off some cheap bolter tacs, tactical doctrine will be on by the time they show up.
Insularum wrote: Anyone planning on trying out a termite assault drill now they have angels of death? They seem insanely good for the price now (points not cash), and even if they are just dropping off some cheap bolter tacs, tactical doctrine will be on by the time they show up.
Have GW added a new FAQ or update to give termite assualt drills angles of death?
Just checked the Datasheet from Forgeworlds website and No AnglesofDeath on that.
Insularum wrote: Anyone planning on trying out a termite assault drill now they have angels of death? They seem insanely good for the price now (points not cash), and even if they are just dropping off some cheap bolter tacs, tactical doctrine will be on by the time they show up.
Have GW added a new FAQ or update to give termite assualt drills angles of death?
"Errata
All the updated abilities, wargear profiles and rules clarifications for non-Codex Adeptus Astartes Chapters and the Heretic Astartes – as well as their respective Forge World units – are included here."
Insularum wrote: Anyone planning on trying out a termite assault drill now they have angels of death? They seem insanely good for the price now (points not cash), and even if they are just dropping off some cheap bolter tacs, tactical doctrine will be on by the time they show up.
Have GW added a new FAQ or update to give termite assualt drills angles of death?
"Errata
All the updated abilities, wargear profiles and rules clarifications for non-Codex Adeptus Astartes Chapters and the Heretic Astartes – as well as their respective Forge World units – are included here."
The community team epic fail again as the errata doesn't cover the terrmite.
godardc wrote: So is it legal to fire a thunderfire twice (using the fire twice stratagem stratagem) including a tremor shell ?
You can, yes. The tremor shells stratagem lasts for the duration of the phase.
On the previous page I posted this question:
ewar wrote: Whilst waiting for my book to arrive, I've been pondering all the news.
What are people's thoughts about relic scorpius? How does it interact with scions of guilliman and the shoot twice strat? I know it's cheeky, but I'm thinking that shooting 4 times per turn with extra ap on turn 1 sounds hilarious.
I'm hoping the shoot again strat would activate the scorpius' native ability to shoot twice if it didn't move. 12 D3 indirect shots is very juicy...
It's been covered and it's not worded as shoot twice it's an additional time no x2 x2 its x2+1 2 regular whirlwind are cheaper.
OK thanks. I read the thread but didn't see any mention of WW, perhaps you're thinking of it from somewhere else? Or I'm blind and missed it!
I need to re-read the vengeance launcher rules, but I'm thinking that 9D3 S6 ap-2 (-3 dev doc) D2 shots is still pretty phenominal. Maybe add in a pair of rapier quad launchers for another 8 S8 ap-2(-3 dev doc) D3 shots. That is a lot of firepower hiding out of LOS where possible (even if rapiers best shots are range limited). Might be a good unit to have the +3" range on actually...
So trying to figure out how to get a "maximus tanky" character, and here's my current best attempt.
Ultramarines sucessor (with stealthy and stalwart) Phobos Captain, with armor indomatus. and use examplar of the Imperium strat to get stealth adept, and iron resolve.
Now I'm not claiming this is a power combo, I'm just doing a metal exercise to see how it can be done,
So over all you're looking at a 2+ 4++ (that can go to 3++ for one turn) 6+++ captain with 7 wounds, that is in cover at ranges over 12 inches, adds 2 to it's armor save in cover. and requires a roll of at least 3 no matter the weapon to wound. kind of a fun approuch
Are vanguard vets with dual chainswords now the optimal cheap melee unit?
Are terminators worth taking?
Seems like regular dreadnoughts are worth taking again as well as ironclads. Contemptors are now overpriced.
Cataprachts seem like the best Terminators so far.
Any ideas? I love termies but they don't still seem worth it.
I cannot tell for the terminator but I still using my vanguard vet with dual chainswords with a razorback. 5 guys, 21 attacks and now back up with the suppressors to cancel the overwatch…. worth taking any time now.
Are vanguard vets with dual chainswords now the optimal cheap melee unit?
Are terminators worth taking?
Seems like regular dreadnoughts are worth taking again as well as ironclads. Contemptors are now overpriced.
Cataprachts seem like the best Terminators so far.
Any ideas? I love termies but they don't still seem worth it.
I think that a big block of TH/SS termies or Cataprachts might be good if you put the transhuman strat on them back to back. Gives them an insanely high effective toughness for 2 CP. Maybe make them black templar for the 5+++ against mortals as well and charge rerolls. They may be quite a bit more worth it when the black templar book comes out.
So far, I haven't spent any CP on any additional options either. I am thinking of using Hero of the Chapter on the Captain and making Pedro Kantor the Warlord (Pedro would have either Champion of Humanity or Iron Resolve for the time being, the Captain would have Refuse to Die).
What else could I take for 63 pts? I am aiming to run mostly Primaris, but that isn't a requirement.
How about a company ancient? thats about 60 points and you can then give him a stormbolter for 2 points. and toss a grenade launcher on one of your intercessors.
BrianDavion wrote: How about a company ancient? thats about 60 points and you can then give him a stormbolter for 2 points. and toss a grenade launcher on one of your intercessors.
All six squads have grenade launchers.
I was considering an Ancient, but I don't really see how it would be useful. The Hellblasters go in the Impulsors. I suppose walking with the Aggressors might work.
I also considered the following:
Primaris Apothecary
Tarantula (either HB or Lascannon variant)
Techmarine (would go in a separate detachment with the Eliminators for an extra CP)
Attack Bike
BrianDavion wrote: How about a company ancient? thats about 60 points and you can then give him a stormbolter for 2 points. and toss a grenade launcher on one of your intercessors.
All six squads have grenade launchers.
I was considering an Ancient, but I don't really see how it would be useful. The Hellblasters go in the Impulsors. I suppose walking with the Aggressors might work.
I also considered the following:
Primaris Apothecary
Tarantula (either HB or Lascannon variant)
Techmarine (would go in a separate detachment with the Eliminators for an extra CP)
Attack Bike
Ancient is just more wounds, and the apothecary would work great, but yeah I agree he seems fun addition!
BrianDavion wrote: How about a company ancient? thats about 60 points and you can then give him a stormbolter for 2 points. and toss a grenade launcher on one of your intercessors.
All six squads have grenade launchers.
I was considering an Ancient, but I don't really see how it would be useful. The Hellblasters go in the Impulsors. I suppose walking with the Aggressors might work.
I also considered the following:
Primaris Apothecary
Tarantula (either HB or Lascannon variant)
Techmarine (would go in a separate detachment with the Eliminators for an extra CP)
Attack Bike
Ancient is just more wounds, and the apothecary would work great, but yeah I agree he seems fun addition!
I have my custom Primaris Apothecary(pistol in each hand) ready to go. I think I will try that. Probably a Captain with one squad of Hellblasters, and the Apothecary with the other. They will form into a Nope Bubble.
Depending on how things go, the Apothecary might be a candidate for Artificer Armor.
Are vanguard vets with dual chainswords now the optimal cheap melee unit?
Are terminators worth taking?
Seems like regular dreadnoughts are worth taking again as well as ironclads. Contemptors are now overpriced.
Cataprachts seem like the best Terminators so far.
Any ideas? I love termies but they don't still seem worth it.
I think that a big block of TH/SS termies or Cataprachts might be good if you put the transhuman strat on them back to back. Gives them an insanely high effective toughness for 2 CP. Maybe make them black templar for the 5+++ against mortals as well and charge rerolls. They may be quite a bit more worth it when the black templar book comes out.
Yeah I really want to try all the units you are speaking about and hopefully they have been improved enough / have enough stratagems to be worth it now !
To my mind, terminators got some real love with the various buff and stratagems this time.
I am waiting for the Imperial Fist supplement. Their chapter tactic looks like a really amazing complement to my Blood Angels.
A battalion with 3x5 intercessors that ignore cover and get extra shots.
A few whirlwinds/thunderfire cannons for juicy ap1-2 ignore cover shots from out of los.
Would be quite cheap and decimate any troops and screening units that block my blood angels from deepstriking and charging in to melee. Cheap compared to the same output from using pure BA units. 700pts IF would do the same damage as 1000pts of the same units if they were BA. Can then really focus the rest on the list even more against tougher tragets since the IF detachment handle the cheap units. Just need to see what warlord traits, physic powers and relics they get for the 2 HQs.
I don't think IF has the overall best chapter tactic but it looks to me to be clearly the number one if only taken as a single anti infantry detachment. Perhaps not that useful for most marine lists since they already have enough bolter fire but as a compliment to aggressive melee marines they look amazing. I can kill any amount of hard targets in melee but I can't have cost effective anti infantry at the same time as BA without souping in some guard. Now it looks like I can just do it with Imperial Fists instead. And I just bought the guard apocalypse box and some other stuff. Time to trade it for yellow marines
Are Shooty Primaris Lieutenants worth it now that their guns have been upgraded? The Stalker Bolt Rifle version puts some serious hurt out with that Str 4, Ap-2, 3D. The Auto Bolt Rifle version isn't far behind with its three shots and 2D. During the Tactical Doctrine, the AP-1 helps it even more.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Are Shooty Primaris Lieutenants worth it now that their guns have been upgraded? The Stalker Bolt Rifle version puts some serious hurt out with that Str 4, Ap-2, 3D. The Auto Bolt Rifle version isn't far behind with its three shots and 2D. During the Tactical Doctrine, the AP-1 helps it even more.
I never got why people didn't think they wheren't worth it before hand, they where useally kept back with the firing line, might as well be able to contribute
The auto bolt rifle does look like a pretty strong option now, it’s true. Far better than having a 1d power sword. A gun with 3 shots at ap-1 and D2 can actually do stuff. It’s not going to win games on its own but it’s something.
I’ve been thinking of taking a reiver lieutenant for the warlord trait to reposition stuff. This is really just because he’s the cheapest phobos character and he does the basic job of the reroll bubble as well as anyone. The downside is that he’s essentially unarmed.
Is there any reason beside list tailoring to take Tyranic War Vets? 4 man squad min maybe if you want to cram them into a transport with too many HQs. But all I see is sternguard with less options that cost more, for an ability that is so niche, the only reason to take it lis tailoring against a specific foe.
I was kinda hopeing that since sternguard lost SIA, the vets might get it back, or at least just issues hellfire rounds, to help distinguish them from SG. Oh well. TWV proxy just fine as regular SG. No hope for them getting any decent rules to make them worth fielding.
Nevelon wrote: Is there any reason beside list tailoring to take Tyranic War Vets? 4 man squad min maybe if you want to cram them into a transport with too many HQs. But all I see is sternguard with less options that cost more, for an ability that is so niche, the only reason to take it lis tailoring against a specific foe.
I was kinda hopeing that since sternguard lost SIA, the vets might get it back, or at least just issues hellfire rounds, to help distinguish them from SG. Oh well. TWV proxy just fine as regular SG. No hope for them getting any decent rules to make them worth fielding.
No, there really isn't. And even their special rule doesn't warrant their increased price per model. I honestly think the Tyrannic War Veterans would have been better as a Stratagem like the Veteran Intercessors Stratagem. Oh well.
And Sternguard didn't really lose SIA. Their Special Issue Boltguns combine 3/4 of the Special Issue Ammos into one and Masterful Marksmanship closes the gap on the fourth one.
Nevelon wrote: Is there any reason beside list tailoring to take Tyranic War Vets? 4 man squad min maybe if you want to cram them into a transport with too many HQs. But all I see is sternguard with less options that cost more, for an ability that is so niche, the only reason to take it lis tailoring against a specific foe.
I was kinda hopeing that since sternguard lost SIA, the vets might get it back, or at least just issues hellfire rounds, to help distinguish them from SG. Oh well. TWV proxy just fine as regular SG. No hope for them getting any decent rules to make them worth fielding.
No, there really isn't. And even their special rule doesn't warrant their increased price per model. I honestly think the Tyrannic War Veterans would have been better as a Stratagem like the Veteran Intercessors Stratagem. Oh well.
And Sternguard didn't really lose SIA. Their Special Issue Boltguns combine 3/4 of the Special Issue Ammos into one and Masterful Marksmanship closes the gap on the fourth one.
They need to be the same cost and the trade of being only bolters vrs the anti nid. It's way too specific an ability to be worth 2 points per model.
casvalremdeikun wrote: And Sternguard didn't really lose SIA. Their Special Issue Boltguns combine 3/4 of the Special Issue Ammos into one and Masterful Marksmanship closes the gap on the fourth one.
It's a bit unfortunate that they lose out on the bonuses when using combi weapons though. Would have been nice to keep the extra range and AP on the normal bolter part.
They can not in the 2019 codex. Its probably an index option people are taking. I don't know if i would bother since who knows how long the indexes have.
demontalons wrote: Yes it can b but remember the priest has to cast his powers at the start of the battle round. So he cant be in deepstrike and do it.
Can someone explain to me how vanguard vets can get 2 chainswords? I was under the impression they have to have a pistol and a CCW.
Because I do remember I read something like "can not be stacked with any other modifier"
So if it's legal and it does work, I would be a very happy Chapter Master !
Would be quite cheap and decimate any troops and screening units that block my blood angels from deepstriking and charging in to melee.
As Iron Hands, we look to kill more than just 10% of our opponent's troops, The Flesh Is Weak!
Its stupid that decimate can mean kill 10% or 90% in the same context. Should have used massacre instead
I don't care if you're leaving 90% of the enemy alive or only 10%. It's still heresy to leave any of them alive.
Has anyone spotted a clever use for the marine aircraft since the new book came out? I certainly have not. The storm raven might possibly have some use now, especially since assault centurions are so awesome, but the little guys don't seem at all worth their cost. Am I missing something?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Are Shooty Primaris Lieutenants worth it now that their guns have been upgraded?
No. They have BS 3+, they don't shoot any better than intercessors. One more bolter is not gonna change anything, a bunch of WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Even if your lieutenant was sitting in the back lines giving rerolls, some close combat deterrence is nice to have. I really hope that they could have the sword and the gun like the sergeants though...
Even so. The best build for primaris is a MC SBR. A power sword? Nah...LT shouldn't really be in combat anyways. He should be buffing as many units as possible and shooting a gun.
For Mini Lt he has more options. Storm bolter and power fist just makes sense cause he has ws2+. I'd rather have a beefer LT due to snipers though.
A power sword? Nah...LT shouldn't really be in combat anyways.
Your opponent might have other ideas.
Mostly because a power sword isn't even great melle and there is a good chance you will never even use it. The stalker will probably shoot 3-4 times in a game and with flat 3 damage that can be a bit deal.
Xenomancers wrote: Even so. The best build for primaris is a MC SBR. A power sword? Nah...LT shouldn't really be in combat anyways. He should be buffing as many units as possible and shooting a gun.
For Mini Lt he has more options. Storm bolter and power fist just makes sense cause he has ws2+. I'd rather have a beefer LT due to snipers though.
Want to beef up your little LT terintine cloak. 5++ and D3 wounds per turn.
A power sword? Nah...LT shouldn't really be in combat anyways.
Your opponent might have other ideas.
Mostly because a power sword isn't even great melle and there is a good chance you will never even use it. The stalker will probably shoot 3-4 times in a game and with flat 3 damage that can be a bit deal.
Also,
Deathwatch Primaris LTs/Cpts with Banebolts get a 4 damage shot that targets characters and an extra 6" of range, at -4 AP. That's stupidly powerful. I mean, you give him Bane of monstrocities and he re-rolls wound rolls against vehicles. Great, your HQ is shooting tanks....
Xenomancers wrote: Even so. The best build for primaris is a MC SBR. A power sword? Nah...LT shouldn't really be in combat anyways. He should be buffing as many units as possible and shooting a gun.
For Mini Lt he has more options. Storm bolter and power fist just makes sense cause he has ws2+. I'd rather have a beefer LT due to snipers though.
Want to beef up your little LT terintine cloak. 5++ and D3 wounds per turn.
You could I suppose but with a power sword he's still not doing anything without a relic weapon and then hes just to flimsy for the cost. You'll do more damage just shooting and also keeping yourself safe. OFC I am not speaking of the mini marine LT. I'd give him a powerfist and storm bolter every time. Though I still don't charge with him most of the time because when I do they just target him first and then I lose reroll wounds. He stands behind calgar and charges only when necessary.
Another stupid question but: how is it worded in English ? The Gravitic Amplification stratagem, does it affect grav weapons or only grav weapons with grav ampli like grav cannons ?
"Use this Stratagem when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from
your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of the phase,
when resolving an attack made with a grav-cannon and grav-amp by a model in that unit, you can re-roll the wound roll
and you can re-roll the damage roll."
Mchagen wrote: "Use this Stratagem when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from
your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of the phase,
when resolving an attack made with a grav-cannon and grav-amp by a model in that unit, you can re-roll the wound roll
and you can re-roll the damage roll."
Doesn't a grav cannon xith grav amp already reroll failed to wounds ?
Xenomancers wrote: Even so. The best build for primaris is a MC SBR. A power sword? Nah...LT shouldn't really be in combat anyways. He should be buffing as many units as possible and shooting a gun.
For Mini Lt he has more options. Storm bolter and power fist just makes sense cause he has ws2+. I'd rather have a beefer LT due to snipers though.
Want to beef up your little LT terintine cloak. 5++ and D3 wounds per turn.
You could I suppose but with a power sword he's still not doing anything without a relic weapon and then hes just to flimsy for the cost. You'll do more damage just shooting and also keeping yourself safe. OFC I am not speaking of the mini marine LT. I'd give him a powerfist and storm bolter every time. Though I still don't charge with him most of the time because when I do they just target him first and then I lose reroll wounds. He stands behind calgar and charges only when necessary.
That's what I plan on doing with mine it's just to make him a bit less easier to snipe or aoe to death as with double battalion and Calgar CP shouldn't be to much of a concern.
I also have a Smash chaplin and vanguard vets if someone's insists on a knife fight.
Mchagen wrote: "Use this Stratagem when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from
your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of the phase,
when resolving an attack made with a grav-cannon and grav-amp by a model in that unit, you can re-roll the wound roll
and you can re-roll the damage roll."
Doesn't a grav cannon xith grav amp already reroll failed to wounds ?
Deathwatch Primaris LTs/Cpts with Banebolts get a 4 damage shot that targets characters and an extra 6" of range, at -4 AP. That's stupidly powerful. I mean, you give him Bane of monstrocities and he re-rolls wound rolls against vehicles. Great, your HQ is shooting tanks....
MCSBRs dont gain the sniper rule, and they cap out at AP3 with Vengeance rounds (which you dont want to use when Hellfire is available). The only way youre sniping characters is by spending three CP on a single shot. And if you're trying to pop tanks with a Watch Captain's shooting you're far better served with other weapon choices.
Can I use duplicates of the Special Issue Wargear if I use the Stratagem twice? As in can I give two different models Artificer Armor? Or two different models Master-Crafted Weapons?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can I use duplicates of the Special Issue Wargear if I use the Stratagem twice? As in can I give two different models Artificer Armor? Or two different models Master-Crafted Weapons?
No you can't. The stratagem says that each relic must be unique.
All the relics in your army must be different and be given to different models. Same wording for both the relics of the chapter stratagem and the honoured sergeant stratagem.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can I use duplicates of the Special Issue Wargear if I use the Stratagem twice? As in can I give two different models Artificer Armor? Or two different models Master-Crafted Weapons?
No you can't. The stratagem says that each relic must be unique.
So then what the heck is the point of the Special Issue Wargear? It is no different than the Codex relics.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Can I use duplicates of the Special Issue Wargear if I use the Stratagem twice? As in can I give two different models Artificer Armor? Or two different models Master-Crafted Weapons?
No you can't. The stratagem says that each relic must be unique.
So then what the heck is the point of the Special Issue Wargear? It is no different than the Codex relics.
There is a stratagem to give a sergeant a relic, but limited to only the SIW list, also successor chapters can freely take from the SIW list but face some restriction in taking parent first founding chapter relics.
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
GK were kings of the 5th edition meta because they were perfectly built to kill marines in a marine meta.
The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.
The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.
Grey Knights suck for a few reason.
They have no reliable delivery system. A 9 inch charge is unreliable. And yes you can think of games where you made a big charge but in a tournament system reliability is your #1 weapon.
They are a 1 wound 3+ save model. Most chaff wont have an issue killing these guys let along anything with a punch.
Their points are still too high.
The extra attack is nice but they'll rarely get to use it when it counts.
Anyhow onto another topic I'm sold on suppressors, but less is more.
They share the same weakness as hell blasters. Lots of dakka, high cost, low durability per point ratio, and they will draw a lot of agro. The enemy gets a vote and they will veto 2 wound models with lots of dakka and only a 3+ save.
They can however mitigate their weaknesses more than hell blasters. They don't need to get into double tap range so they can stay out of double tap range. They don't need to leave cover to get into double tap range so they can keep their cover save all game. The 12" move and jump means they can hide out of LOS on the enemy's turn 1 and jump into an optimal rooftop firing position and camp there in cover all game. Raven guard staying in their own deployment zone will be especially durable.
That being said optimal camping spots are limited so the more suppressors an army has the less optimal camping spots will be. 90 points of these seem great in any army, but I can't justify 270 in every army unless they are filling out a brigade and it's better for them than other FA options.
The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.
Grey Knights suck for a few reason.
They have no reliable delivery system. A 9 inch charge is unreliable. And yes you can think of games where you made a big charge but in a tournament system reliability is your #1 weapon.
They are a 1 wound 3+ save model. Most chaff wont have an issue killing these guys let along anything with a punch.
Their points are still too high.
The extra attack is nice but they'll rarely get to use it when it counts.
I have argued they need their own dedicated transport that 'teleports' them into combat.
A bigger issue with grey knights is most of their roster is poorly done and they are too expensive for what you get. Their abilities are lack luster, and their wargear over priced. that and not having access to nearly as much as they should. (like why don't they have libarian dreads or some other super walker outside of their dreadknights?)
Another issue is their lack of support options that make them worth while. Especially against knights, vehicles etc.
Primaris Chaplain with Relic Crozium, Imperium's Sword WLtrait & Mantra of Strength. gives 5 S7 -2 D3 attacks plus MW on 6s. Charging or HI adds 2 attacks & for Shock Assault & WL trait.
Cast Might of heroes for another attack & strength. Add Whirlwind of Rage for exploding 6s. You can also add a 1cp Strat to make 6s auto wound if necessary.
Potentially 8 S8 -2 D3 attacks. -3 if Aasault Doctrine is active.
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
please make a new GK codex...
GK were kings of the 5th edition meta because they were perfectly built to kill marines in a marine meta.
The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.
Honestly if GK got access to doctrines they would instantly be in the meta. They have a LOT of storm bolters.
Ork-en Man wrote: Primaris Chaplain with Relic Crozium, Imperium's Sword WLtrait & Mantra of Strength. gives 5 S7 -2 D3 attacks plus MW on 6s. Charging or HI adds 2 attacks & for Shock Assault & WL trait.
Cast Might of heroes for another attack & strength. Add Whirlwind of Rage for exploding 6s. You can also add a 1cp Strat to make 6s auto wound if necessary.
Potentially 8 S8 -2 D3 attacks. -3 if Aasault Doctrine is active.
Smash chaplain is most definitely a thing. The sallies WL trait and relic crozium makes him str 8 off the bat. More attacks are probably better but that's still fun.
Can i take Indomitus Crusaders so that i have access to Rapid Fire stratagem for 1 CP.
also, i'm assuming 'Grey Shield' no longer functions, since the chapter traits are all different now?
I've been asking that a few times now to no success. From what I understand, there's nothing in the book that explicitly says you can't use the Vigilus stuff, so I'd think you could use the stratagems if you pay the Vigilus tax and limit their use to Vets as before, but then every single preview has made no mention of Vigilus nor whether it's worth/possible to mix and match.
A video did note they also assumed Grey Shield no longer functions due to the new names, which is rather understandable, but a large disappointment. I was really looking forwards to running as IH or UM and still popping the Salamander rerolls for 1 turn.
Ork-en Man wrote: Primaris Chaplain with Relic Crozium, Imperium's Sword WLtrait & Mantra of Strength. gives 5 S7 -2 D3 attacks plus MW on 6s. Charging or HI adds 2 attacks & for Shock Assault & WL trait.
Cast Might of heroes for another attack & strength. Add Whirlwind of Rage for exploding 6s. You can also add a 1cp Strat to make 6s auto wound if necessary.
Potentially 8 S8 -2 D3 attacks. -3 if Aasault Doctrine is active.
Smash chaplain is most definitely a thing. The sallies WL trait and relic crozium makes him str 8 off the bat. More attacks are probably better but that's still fun.
Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
I run mine with chainswords (and don't model the chain sword cause yeah getting that would be a PITA) I figure I' rather have an additional attack for free
Weazel wrote: Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
They look cool? I mean if your intercessors get into close combat your not doing your job correctly!
I have vanguard marines jumping around with chainswords and lightning claws with a smash captain running around.
Love the changes to white scars. I love being able to run close combat again.
Did a test battle against my knight stand in army and heavy tank army, Termies still bad, but heavy bolters... shesh they just slaughter everything now. And cheap grav cannons is great, as the ultra tanky captains with storm wreathed + might of heroes just makes the game amazingly hilariously one side against most armies in close combat.
Weazel wrote: Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
Sargents get 4A on round 1. Power swords only cost 4 points. Even without buffs intercessors are no slouches in CC. White scars can make those 30 intercessors S5 with +1 to wound. White scar bikes can't advance and fire bolters while intercessors can equip an assault 3 rifle for fewer points. It's not as fast as a bike but they will all be assaulting by turn 2. 60 of them is only 1080 and decently durable with a dorito.
BrianDavion wrote: I run mine with chainswords (and don't model the chain sword cause yeah getting that would be a PITA) I figure I' rather have an additional attack for free
Well chainswords I have plenty, so that's easy modelingwise. Are combat blades still a thing, they used to give an extra attack. Sarges can't be equipped with them per se but modeling a big knife could easily count as a chainsword, even just a sheathed knife.
Kinda tempted to make a unit or two of veterans (with Power sword sarge), but the veteran intercessors stratagem seems a tad expensive. Is it a viable stratagem to start with or is it more of a flavor thing?
So I saw some math on eliminators being ever so slightly better with a sergeant buff than 1 additional las fusil shot. Has anyone done the math on if it's the same for traditional snipers?
Weazel wrote: Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
Your intercessors should absolutely be closing into CC some of the time. You can literally double the damage output against certain targets. If orks get close, hit them with bolters and then charge them. If you can do this to multiple mobs, then do so. Seriously, intercessors have 3 attacks on the first round of combat now, a 5 man squad of intercessors putting out 10 bolt rifle shots which is then followed up by 16 CC attacks can really put dents into chaff, especially if your doing this across multiple 5-mans. Add some re-rolls to the mix and you will start wrecking orks/guard/other chaff. It is absolutely viable to throw a PF onto intercessor sergeants (thats a thing now right?) 9 points for 4 str8 -3 Dd3 attacks embedded in the squad can definitely be worth it, but only if you actually leverage your CC ability, which marines and especially primaris habe more of due to shock assault and assault doctrines.
Weazel wrote: Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
Sargents get 4A on round 1. Power swords only cost 4 points. Even without buffs intercessors are no slouches in CC. White scars can make those 30 intercessors S5 with +1 to wound. White scar bikes can't advance and fire bolters while intercessors can equip an assault 3 rifle for fewer points. It's not as fast as a bike but they will all be assaulting by turn 2. 60 of them is only 1080 and decently durable with a dorito.
Weazel wrote: Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
Your intercessors should absolutely be closing into CC some of the time. You can literally double the damage output against certain targets. If orks get close, hit them with bolters and then charge them. If you can do this to multiple mobs, then do so. Seriously, intercessors have 3 attacks on the first round of combat now, a 5 man squad of intercessors putting out 10 bolt rifle shots which is then followed up by 16 CC attacks can really put dents into chaff, especially if your doing this across multiple 5-mans. Add some re-rolls to the mix and you will start wrecking orks/guard/other chaff. It is absolutely viable to throw a PF onto intercessor sergeants (thats a thing now right?) 9 points for 4 str8 -3 Dd3 attacks embedded in the squad can definitely be worth it, but only if you actually leverage your CC ability, which marines and especially primaris habe more of due to shock assault and assault doctrines.
Yeah intercessors are really quite good in cc and sergeant weapons can certainly be worth it - though they aren't always.
One of the first times I used my intercessors in 8th a unit got charged by some Slaanesh Seekers. I expected to get rolled over but in the end (after my librarian joined in) the marines ended up winning the fight. It turns out that a bunch of S4 attacks are pretty effective against things without good armour saves.
That said, I think the power sword isn't a good option. It's not going to make a lot of difference (although the cost is also very cheap, so no harm done). Power fists or Thunder Hammers make intercessors into a bit of a threat for hard targets like vehicles, so I'd sooner go for one of those. I've got three intercessor sergeants modelled up with power fists for my Crimson Fists and they sometimes do good work for me, without costing all that much extra. It makes my army a lot less fun to charge at.
One thing though: don't use the power fist off the Imperial Fist sprue. It's just an old MKVII one that they've lazily pasted in. It looks small on a Primaris guy. I've got my Power fists from other sources, like terminators and Marneus Calgar (who I'm converting to Pedro... only to probably get a proper Pedro mini at some point!)
Can you combine UM strat martial precision with flakk missile or hellfire shells. There are some situations where I could spent 2cp to auto-kill a model/unit at 1 wound for example. With UM you can try to get 2 cp each turn with adept of the codex and scryer's gaze anyway. Yes very situational, but don't we all have had moments when you could have wanted to have that 100% 1 MW to remove that last model from an objective or HQ on your turn.
Also wonder if martial precision works with hellfury bolts. Although I'd take d3 MW.. but a weird combo anyway.
Weazel wrote: Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
Sargents get 4A on round 1. Power swords only cost 4 points. Even without buffs intercessors are no slouches in CC. White scars can make those 30 intercessors S5 with +1 to wound. White scar bikes can't advance and fire bolters while intercessors can equip an assault 3 rifle for fewer points. It's not as fast as a bike but they will all be assaulting by turn 2. 60 of them is only 1080 and decently durable with a dorito.
+1 wound? How? Marine stratgem?
Khan on foot gives a +1 to wound aura similar to blood angels.
S5 from the banner now wounding T4 on a 2+
2D when assault doctrine kicks in.
Regular intercessors uppercut a knight's groin on a 4+,
SHORYOUKEN!!!
Not been a huge fan of powerfists this edition. The hit penalty sucks and I always seem to do 1 damage.
That said the list I'm planning to go for doesn't really have too much going on in the antiarmor department outside of 10 Hellblasters, so maybe the fists would be of some use against tougher targets.
Insectum7 wrote: Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.
So ive double checked through the book, are you sure, its worded weirdly, but as far as i can tell its still doable. I only care cause my friend has made a squad with the intention of making a 2nd squad, if its not doable id like to be able to warn him, thanks
Weazel wrote: Is there a point in taking power swords (or any other special melee weapons) for intercessor sergeants? I mean I assume the point is to avoid melee if possible. This is pertinent since I'm designing my primaris list and thinking of going MSU intercessors. That's 6 special weapons for 6 sarges and none are included on their sprue. Should I go out on a limb to secure enough power swords or just keep them as basic as possible and avoid melee in the first place?
Your intercessors should absolutely be closing into CC some of the time. You can literally double the damage output against certain targets. If orks get close, hit them with bolters and then charge them. If you can do this to multiple mobs, then do so. Seriously, intercessors have 3 attacks on the first round of combat now, a 5 man squad of intercessors putting out 10 bolt rifle shots which is then followed up by 16 CC attacks can really put dents into chaff, especially if your doing this across multiple 5-mans. Add some re-rolls to the mix and you will start wrecking orks/guard/other chaff. It is absolutely viable to throw a PF onto intercessor sergeants (thats a thing now right?) 9 points for 4 str8 -3 Dd3 attacks embedded in the squad can definitely be worth it, but only if you actually leverage your CC ability, which marines and especially primaris habe more of due to shock assault and assault doctrines.
Yeah intercessors are really quite good in cc and sergeant weapons can certainly be worth it - though they aren't always.
One of the first times I used my intercessors in 8th a unit got charged by some Slaanesh Seekers. I expected to get rolled over but in the end (after my librarian joined in) the marines ended up winning the fight. It turns out that a bunch of S4 attacks are pretty effective against things without good armour saves.
That said, I think the power sword isn't a good option. It's not going to make a lot of difference (although the cost is also very cheap, so no harm done). Power fists or Thunder Hammers make intercessors into a bit of a threat for hard targets like vehicles, so I'd sooner go for one of those. I've got three intercessor sergeants modelled up with power fists for my Crimson Fists and they sometimes do good work for me, without costing all that much extra. It makes my army a lot less fun to charge at.
One thing though: don't use the power fist off the Imperial Fist sprue. It's just an old MKVII one that they've lazily pasted in. It looks small on a Primaris guy. I've got my Power fists from other sources, like terminators and Marneus Calgar (who I'm converting to Pedro... only to probably get a proper Pedro mini at some point!)
An Ultramarine veteran Intercessor sergeant with a master-crafted thunder hammer actually makes an amazing smash captain. 5 attacks on the charge with full hit re-rolls available for 1CP from sons of guilliman, with S8 -3 D4. Bump that up to 6 attacks with S10 if Tigurius gets Might of Heroes off on him. Put him in a 5 man squad in an impulsor and he is just as mobile as a smash captain while he gets into position. The cons of this build are no 3++ and it's more expensive if you factor in the impulsor. The pros are 8 ablative wounds (which work better than 3++ in some situations) and greatly increased utility and board control (the impulsor is its own thing and can soak overwatch, and the unit is scoring and can clear chaff with their ranged and melee attacks). The squad can actually reliably stick a few extra wounds on a vehicle with Gene-Wrought Might and hit re-rolls. Keep him in buff range of a lieutenant and he can reliably zero out a knight from full wounds after fighting twice (3CP).
Insectum7 wrote: Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.
So ive double checked through the book, are you sure, its worded weirdly, but as far as i can tell its still doable. I only care cause my friend has made a squad with the intention of making a 2nd squad, if its not doable id like to be able to warn him, thanks
I am with you in this one, because if we agree that wording stops vanguards to take double pistols, they also should not be able to take pair of lightning claws which is absolutely ridiculous!
Anyone found any gems while play testing the newly pimped marines? What feels good on a paper doesn't neccesarily perform. I fear that all around S4 weaponry will be the most lack lustering fact..
Marines will be marines, they now hit harder but die about as easy. I predict that when all the currently '”competitive” and mostly undercosted units such as FW dreads like leviathans, ww scorpius, Thunderfire cannons (ffs new model) etc has had its day in the sun together with oldmarines and standard primaris, the army will move to vanguard units for competitive, to get people to buy in to that. Well atleast thats my view
Insectum7 wrote: Dang. They took away my dual plasma pistol wielding Vanguard. Too bad.
So ive double checked through the book, are you sure, its worded weirdly, but as far as i can tell its still doable. I only care cause my friend has made a squad with the intention of making a 2nd squad, if its not doable id like to be able to warn him, thanks
I am with you in this one, because if we agree that wording stops vanguards to take double pistols, they also should not be able to take pair of lightning claws which is absolutely ridiculous!
I have a tourney on Saturday to practice for a team tourney next month. Here is what I'm thinking of taking:
Brigade (White scars):
Captain in Gravis (will be made chapter master with Armor indom)(Warlord)
Kor'sarro Khan
Prim Chaplain (might get pimp cane relic or +1 adv/charge relic)
Prim Librarian (might get +1 stormspeaking relic)
Prim Lieuten (Might get white scar scimitar relic or +1 adv/charge relic)
Troops
2xIntercessors w/ auto bolt rifles & thunder hammer
3xIntercessors w/ auto bolt rifles & power sword
1x6 man Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifles & thunder hammer
Elites:
Prim ancient (will take +1 str banner)
Redemptor dread with dakka and rocket pod
Reiver squad (probably engineers)
Fast Attack:
3xDakka Inceptors
Heavy supp:
2xElims with sergeant improved gun
Thunderfire Cannon
That's 2k points on the nose. What do you guys think?
Mandragola wrote: That doesn’t look like much anti-tank to me. I think you could have trouble against something like knights. Vast dakka will massacre hordes though.
I did worry a bit about anti-tank, but math hammering it out, I can kill a knight in shooting around 80% of the time if I shoot my whole army at it (even if it has a 4++). Also, if the knights get in charge range of me, I can easily kill multiple knights in melee (Especially on turn 3).
grouchoben wrote: When can you ever shoot your entire army at one target, urza?
When it's a giant model that I can easily see through 2nd story windows that normally deploys right on the deployment line as close as possible to try and get into melee with me asap and all my guns can advance and fire at 24"/18"(these have a 12" movement). I'm pretty sure I can put my whole army in range T1 if necessary or hide entirely and do an alpha T2 by walking through walls.
Hmm. The 2k knight army I’m thinking of taking to a tournament soon has a Castigator, two crusaders, a warden, the rusty 17 and 85 spare assassin points. It has no particular reason to want to advance towards your stuff, though I imagine I’d run out of skitarii pretty soon.
Maybe we should start making a list for changed and workable unit/combo's which have truly seen combat experience. If you got a 'wow' or 'this feels potent' effects on any units or combo's please share. What we really need in the tactics thread the 'good' tactics we have tested and want to share. It's almost a week since the codex came out we must have some real comments. My comments hopefully comes in a day or two
X078 wrote: Marines will be marines, they now hit harder but die about as easy. I predict that when all the currently '”competitive” and mostly undercosted units such as FW dreads like leviathans, ww scorpius, Thunderfire cannons (ffs new model) etc has had its day in the sun together with oldmarines and standard primaris, the army will move to vanguard units for competitive, to get people to buy in to that. Well atleast thats my view
People will play whatever's the best and while vanguard certainly aren't bad, I wouldn't say they're 'the best' either.
grouchoben wrote: When can you ever shoot your entire army at one target, urza?
When it's a giant model that I can easily see through 2nd story windows that normally deploys right on the deployment line as close as possible to try and get into melee with me asap and all my guns can advance and fire at 24"/18"(these have a 12" movement). I'm pretty sure I can put my whole army in range T1 if necessary or hide entirely and do an alpha T2 by walking through walls.
Your biggest weakness is gonna be going second because of how limited your defenses are. Even with decent LoS and cover you'll be losing a pretty decent chunk of models.
I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
Roboute wrote: I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.
From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.
Roboute wrote: I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.
From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.
This is a sign of a well written codex.
Great points! I can't help but agree - this is an excellent codex! I feel sorry for Chaos players.
Roboute wrote: I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.
From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.
This is a sign of a well written codex.
Great points! I can't help but agree - this is an excellent codex! I feel sorry for Chaos players.
I am not. Space Marines needed the buff, and chaos also gets alot of angels of death rules, including bolter discipline and charge + 1 attack. So Raptors and many other close combat units get a massive buff.
Spoiler:
Strike Force Wind (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [171 PL, 20CP, 2,500pts] Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [138 PL, 15CP, 2,013pts] No Force Org Slot **Chapter Selection** Selections: Inheritors of the Primarch, White Scars Successor Categories: No Force Org Slot Battle-forged CP [3CP] Categories: No Force Org Slot Detachment CP [12CP] Categories: No Force Org Slot
HQ Captain [6 PL, 112pts] Selections: Jump Pack, Power fist, Storm shield Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Character, HQ, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Captain, Fly, Jump Pack Chaplain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 92pts] Selections: Benediction of Fury, Iron Resolve, Storm bolter, Warlord Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Chaplain, Terminator, HQ, Warlord Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 112pts] Selections: 2) Might of Heroes, 4) Storm-wreathed, Force axe, Storm bolter Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Psyker, Librarian, Terminator, HQ Troops Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts] Selections: Bolt rifle Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Intercessor Squad, Primaris, Troops 4x Intercessor Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts] Selections: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Intercessor Squad, Primaris, Troops 4x Intercessor Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts] Selections: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Intercessor Squad, Primaris, Troops 4x Intercessor Intercessor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts] Selections: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Intercessor Squad, Primaris, Troops 4x Intercessor Intercessor Sergeant Selections: Power sword Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 89pts] Selections: Bolt rifle Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Intercessor Squad, Primaris, Troops 4x Intercessor Intercessor Sergeant Selections: Power sword Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 102pts] Selections: Bolt rifle Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Intercessor Squad, Primaris, Troops 5x Intercessor Intercessor Sergeant Elites Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 105pts] Selections: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Flamestorm Gauntlets Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Aggressor Squad, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Mk X Gravis, Primaris, Elites Sternguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 70pts] Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Infantry, Faction: Imperium, Sternguard Veteran Squad, Elites Space Marine Veteran Selections: Special issue boltgun Space Marine Veteran Selections: Special issue boltgun Space Marine Veteran Selections: Special issue boltgun Space Marine Veteran Selections: Special issue boltgun Veteran Sergeant Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 122pts] Selections: Jump Pack Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Infantry, Faction: Imperium, Vanguard Veteran Squad, Elites, Fly, Jump Pack Space Marine Veteran Selections: Chainsword, Plasma pistol Space Marine Veteran Selections: Chainsword, Plasma pistol Space Marine Veteran Selections: 2x Chainsword Space Marine Veteran Selections: 2x Chainsword Space Marine Veteran Selections: Bolt Pistol & Chainsword Veteran Sergeant Selections: Plasma pistol, Power axe Fast Attack Bike Squad [5 PL, 69pts] Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Biker, Bike Squad, Fast Attack Biker Sergeant Selections: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun 2x Space Marine Biker w/Bolt Pistol Selections: 2x Twin boltgun Bike Squad [5 PL, 69pts] Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Biker, Bike Squad, Fast Attack Biker Sergeant Selections: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun 2x Space Marine Biker w/Bolt Pistol Selections: 2x Twin boltgun Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 123pts] Selections: Assault bolter x2, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Fly, Faction: Imperium, Inceptor Squad, Infantry, Jump Pack, Mk X Gravis, Primaris, Fast Attack Heavy Support Devastator Squad [8 PL, 124pts] Selections: Armorium Cherub Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Devastator Squad, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Heavy Support Space Marine Sergeant Selections: Chainsword, Storm bolter Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon Selections: Plasma cannon Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon Selections: Plasma cannon Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon Selections: Heavy bolter Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon Selections: Heavy bolter Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts] Selections: Plasma incinerator Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Hellblaster Squad, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Primaris, Heavy Support 4x Hellblaster Hellblaster Sergeant Selections: Bolt pistol Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 312pts] Selections: Grav-flux bombard, 2x Heavy flamer Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Dreadnought, Faction: Imperium, Relic, Vehicle, Relic Leviathan Dreadnought, Heavy Support, Relic Heavy Support, <Chapter> Leviathan siege claw Selections: Meltagun Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [33 PL, 5CP, 487pts] No Force Org Slot **Chapter Selection** Categories: No Force Org Slot Detachment CP [5CP] Categories: No Force Org Slot HQ Captain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 106pts] Captain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 106pts] Selections: Power fist, Storm bolter, Wrist-mounted Grenade Launcher Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Character, HQ, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Captain, Terminator Librarian [6 PL, 88pts] Selections: Boltgun, Force stave Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Psyker, Librarian, HQ Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 69pts] Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Primaris, Lieutenants, HQ Primaris Lieutenant Selections: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle Troops Tactical Squad [5 PL, 74pts] Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Tactical Squad, Troops 3x Space Marine Space Marine Sergeant Selections: Chainsword, Storm bolter Space Marine w/Special Weapon Selections: Grav-gun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 68pts] Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Tactical Squad, Troops 3x Space Marine Space Marine Sergeant Selections: Chainsword, Storm bolter Space Marine w/Special Weapon Selections: Flamer Tactical Squad [5 PL, 82pts] Categories: Faction: Adeptus Astartes, Faction: Imperium, Infantry, Tactical Squad, Troops 3x Space Marine Space Marine Sergeant Selections: Chainsword, Combi-plasma Space Marine w/Special Weapon Selections: Plasma gun
Is the list I am planning on playing with soon, seems fun!
The groups that still need a buff are Grey Knights and Regular Chaos. Deathguard are still very competitive.
Roboute wrote: I don't think brigades are going to be very viable for Marines competitively. You have to sacrifice too much in quality to get the large quantity of small, vulnerable units you need to fill out the slots. Marines still die easily, and there are a few units that will be necessary to give marines the staying power to soak some hits (e.g. leviathan, an impulsor or two to protect key units). A double battalion is very valuable for the CP, and allows you to avoid needing fast attack slots in particular (from an Ultramarines perspective).
From a Raven guard and Salamanders perspective MSU eliminators and suppressors are a good deal.
From a white scars perspective 2 battalions is the way to go.
This is a sign of a well written codex.
Great points! I can't help but agree - this is an excellent codex! I feel sorry for Chaos players.
Thanks. I'm not upset about the buffs SM got-I'm more upset about the CONTENT. CSM got maybe three things-cool things, sure, but not many.
Asherian Command wrote: I mean I am still waiting for my wolves to get something.... Phobos really doesn't fit their strategies,
Considering that Wolves were the only chapter who routinely fielded non-neophyte scout squads, and the phobos are just that except with better gear, I think it fits them absolutely perfectly.
neither does it for black templars...
Reivers fit the Templars well, but yeah, the rest of the phobos units really do not.
Asherian Command wrote: I mean I am still waiting for my wolves to get something.... Phobos really doesn't fit their strategies,
Considering that Wolves were the only chapter who routinely fielded non-neophyte scout squads, and the phobos are just that except with better gear, I think it fits them absolutely perfectly.
neither does it for black templars...
Reivers fit the Templars well, but yeah, the rest of the phobos units really do not.
Well most of the space wolves still need their blood claw unit and grey hunters but we don't have that in primaris form for them.
Well most of the space wolves still need their blood claw unit and grey hunters but we don't have that in primaris form for them.
Eh. Reivers are your Primaris Blood Claws and Intercessors are your Grey Hunters. They just need to give the Wolves access to the Veteran Intercessor stratagem and the new sergeant weapons so they can make their Intercesors badass in melee.
Well most of the space wolves still need their blood claw unit and grey hunters but we don't have that in primaris form for them.
Eh. Reivers are your Primaris Blood Claws and Intercessors are your Grey Hunters. They just need to give the Wolves access to the Veteran Intercessor stratagem and the new sergeant weapons so they can make their Intercesors badass in melee.
Yet they don't have that in the codex, space wolves would not follow the codex, and would use reivers (with chainswords) as a troop choice and infilitrators / vanguard units would be the elites in their army.
Instead its just a blanket (this is what they are cause they are space marines)
Yeah t6 is an easy t to counter. Everything short of a las gun wounds it on 5's at least, it has no invunerable save, and it starts so close up that sure it may kill something t1 but anything that can fight decently (not even tooled for it just good enough) can kill it in cc easily.
Eamples :
Tau : boroadsides or riptides can deal with it without a second thought.
Orks : um... everything but gretchen should be able to kill it in cc.
Chaos : autocannons, deamons, deamon princes, even a large rubric blob would make it dead.
Imperium: waaaay to many things to count.... assault cannons, autocannons, sternguard vets, vanguard vets, guard with grenade launchers, mutlilasers......
Eldar: yeah, just too many as well.... reapers will love these guys.... avengers + doom will ruin them..... yeah.....
They are a new toy that will sell but i don't see them competitive.
GK were kings of the 5th edition meta because they were perfectly built to kill marines in a marine meta.
The meta just shifted towards marines and marines going into CC. GK just gained an additional attack just like every other marine. They are well suited to chopping up marines in cc.
It's never been optimal to get your PAGKs into CC. With only 1-2 attacks, you'll end up easily overwhelmed by numbers, since you are always outnumbered to begin with. The key to playing GK is maximizing your Stormbolters, and ensuring you get get the charge at the right time. Giving up a turn of shooting because you charged at the wrong time/place, can tip the balance of the game.
From this explanation you can see why the GK has had so much trouble in the current meta as well. SBs are not anywhere near as powerful as they were in previous editions, not having any AP is a problem, especially when most of your opponents are hitting you with -1 and -2 weapons on your low body count.