So Chapter Master Valrak has some info on the Imperial fists supplement.
It's supposed to be out at the end of the month (this is pretty obvious as GW's done a once a month release window)
Apparently Impulsors are confirmed to be part of this release, no word yay or nay on if Infiltrators are part of it, it's assumed but I could see GW holding them off until PA book 2 and putting them out with that given that PA 2 is supposed to be Black Templars. Black Templars are confirmed to not be in the book
The Doctrine ability is confirmed to be +1D from heavy weapons vs vehicle and buildings when in devestator doctrine.
Warlord traits:
Fleetmaster: Once per game you can make a Orbital bombardment (given most books have a way to get a second WL trait for a command point this could be worth while if you typically use the orbital barrage strat)
Stubbron Heroism - Warlord CANNOT fallback, when resolving an attack against the warlord, half any damage inflicted (round up)
Crimson Fists get Warlord traits too.
such as:
Refuse to die: Gulliman style ressurection
Strats:
Bitter Enemy: when meleeing an iron warrior unit re-roll hit and wound rolls. - 1 CP (seems most chapters with a historical nemisis get a strat like this)
Bolter Drill: unmodified it roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit (so 3 hits on a roll of 6 with that strat?) - 2 CP Bolster Defences: 1 CP works a bit like the tech marine ability of the same name. can only use once per battle
Pain is a Lesson: 1 CP 6 up feel no pain on non-vehicles or servators
Preatorians Wraith: 2 CP May use in devestator doctrine to improve your AP on a ehavy weapon even more. once per battle.
Psyker abilities:
Fortify: Warp charge value of 4. may health an infantry or biker unit up to D3 lost wounds.
Iron Inferno WCV 6: 18 inch range, roll 1d6 each enemy unit within 6 inches of a point chosen sufers 1 mortal wound on a 4+
Relics:
Banner of Stangada: IF ancient model only, when resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model within a unit that is within 6 inches of the banner add +1 to hit rolls.
Eye of Hippanoth: re-roll wound rolls of 1 for ranged attacks within 6 inches.
IanVanCheese wrote: Pretty underwhelming if true, but I'm assuming this isn't the meatiest stuff in the book.
A lot of this is just stuff we already know though (the CF warlord trait is from White Dwarf, the Eye of Hippanoth was in Vigilus.
well one thing to bare in mind is Valrak is a self described "narrative focus player" so he's focusing on stuff that looks fun and fluffy over "man how can I break this for tournies?"
but yeah nothing stands out as partiuclarly insane, I kinda like stubbron Heroism as it's not JUST a straight upgrade, it adds a "down side" to it too. I can literally imagine a Imperial Fists/ultramarines joint force where the Fist captain is screaming "never give up never surrender! don't let them have an inch!" while the UM captain is fighting with feigned retreats etc and just shaking his head about fist stubbronness
casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Makes sense to me. the problem of course is that buildings etc just aren't very good in 8th.
IMHOGW should put out a boxed set with specific siegecraft rules.
As I said earlier when this was first rumoured, the superdoctrine is stupid. It promotes the use of heavy bolters and other multishot heavy weapons over proper vehicle and bunker busters like missiles and lascannons. This is not fluffy for the IF and promotes boring gameplay as you can just use those multishot weapons effectively against all targets.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Makes sense to me. the problem of course is that buildings etc just aren't very good in 8th.
IMHOGW should put out a boxed set with specific siegecraft rules.
it isn't just that buildings aren't good. They are worthless. Their rules are all over the place with inconsistent rules and points.
If they wanted to really do something cool, they would have made Imperial Fists better at attacking models in cover and ruins. Not only do they ignore cover, but they get bonuses against models in cover or on ruins. Have them get +1 to Wound when attacking models in cover. Give them SOMETHING that doesn't require their opponent to use garbage units that no one uses.
If they wanted to really do something cool, they would have made Imperial Fists better at attacking models in cover and ruins. Not only do they ignore cover, but they get bonuses against models in cover or on ruins. Have them get +1 to Wound when attacking models in cover. Give them SOMETHING that doesn't require their opponent to use garbage units that no one uses.
Please, no! Ignoring cover is bad enough, making cover an active detriment would be even worse. The terrain already matters way too little, and incentivising the opponent to avoid all interaction with is just bad idea.
IF are thematically and aesthetically my favourite first founding chapter, but I really dislike how they're approaching their rules.
I think the problem is IFs are designed as a seige ASSAULT army, but they're most famous as a siege defence army.
Redesign them to favor fighting in cover. so they get their extra hits on 6s with a bolter rule, and when they're in cover (ranged?) attacks vs Imperial Fists... ohh I dunno suffer a -1 to wound?
I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
IF Dev Centurions in Siegebreaker detachments now just autodelete them.
IF Leviathans have D3 storm cannons.
Stalkers now do flat 3.
Redemptors get 18 D2 shots each.
I'm really not convinced that GW has math'd out all these damage increases and decreases they're throwing about like candy...
As a vehicle heavy Eldar player I'm terrified of this. Assault Cannons and Gatling Cannons already completely shred my army if I let them and their damage is getting doubled?
An Actual Englishman wrote: I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
We are now officially playing 30k 2.0. Awesome.
Not sure IH is really balanced by IF. Biggest boost for IF is for weapons like heavy bolters and assault cannons...which gets no benefit from IF ability vs IH...
Combined with -1dam even not being only thing going for IH they are likely still going to be the top dog
Yeah, I think throwing out armywide plus and minus damage stuff is not a great trend. White Scars got it too, though I suppose it's more muted or hidden being turn 3+ at the earliest and in close combat, where you usually need explosive overkill anyhow (not saying it isn't insanely strong when a well-built +1 damage White Scars army hits).
Without knowing other strats, WL-traits, etc.., I still think Iron Hands is better. Their -1 damage is against everything, not just vehicles in the shooting phase with certain weapons. And the added resilience just syncs so much with the ability to repair everything, forcing the opponent to one-turn-kill the big stuff or waste their firepower.
And as said, I don't think Imperial Fists (assuming the +1 damage vs. vehicles is true) will deter Iron Hands. But it WILL murder most non-IH vehicle lists. Venom-spam? Gone. Imperial Knights? Gone. Disco Lords? Gone. AdMech? Gone. Mech-Tau? Gone (along with Riptide-Tau being perfectly-countered by IHs). Eldar vehicles/flyers? Gone. Etc..
casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Isn't that Iron Warriors? I thought Iron Warriors were the siege assault specialists, but the Imperial Fists were the defense specialists?
Dorn did build the Imperial Palace, iirc.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
We are now officially playing 30k 2.0. Awesome.
Actually IF counter Raven Guard pretty well too. Ravenguard get free cover past 12 inches, IFs ignore cover. ... (actually thats one for a FAQ question. Raven guaed get -1 to hit when in cover, do they get that -1 to hit when in cover and being shot by someone with ignores cover?)
this is that I imagine GW'll slowly bring chapter tactics into line to make some armies more inclined to counter another. GW's ALWAYS liked rock paper scissors.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
We are now officially playing 30k 2.0. Awesome.
Actually IF counter Raven Guard pretty well too. Ravenguard get free cover past 12 inches, IFs ignore cover. ... (actually thats one for a FAQ question. Raven guaed get -1 to hit when in cover, do they get that -1 to hit when in cover and being shot by someone with ignores cover?)
this is that I imagine GW'll slowly bring chapter tactics into line to make some armies more inclined to counter another. GW's ALWAYS liked rock paper scissors.
It's important to get the actual wording of both rules set in your mind before considering the need for an FAQ.
Siege Masters says targets do not gain the benefit of cover to their saving throw. No mention of any impact to any other benefit of cover, if it exists. The only impact here is that cover does not benefit a saving throw.
Shadow Masters says Raven Guard get -1 to hit when they're entirely on or within a terrain feature. Whether they're receiving the benefit of cover from that feature is irrelevant to the triggering requirement for the -1 to hit.
I'm very confident that they would gain -1 to hit, but would still not benefit from any boost to their cover save.
For fists, I'm liking the idea of Contemptor Mortis dreads with two twin heavy bolters and the Cyclone. I normally do not like working with resin at all, but I've long wanted one of those units with heavy bolters for hobby reasons anyway, so it might be worth considering...
...if it weren't for the deep dark feeling of dread I have over FW units and the forthcoming CA19. I'd buy it today if I was confident I could realistically use it in a game before it gets nerfed to hell and back. FW units do not tend to fare well when points balancing hits. If they remain unchanged, is 22 points worth the relic upgrade? If I'm not mistaken, it looks like it gains 2 wounds, +1 to its save, and a 6+++. Just need to find out where to cut to make it fit.
If Seismic Devastation makes it into the Supplement like Eye of Hypnoth did, then I'll be pretty happy, too.
I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Hmm, I do like the autocannon idea, and even though it balloons the unit's cost a bit it does look pretty powerful, even if it's only more likely to wound against T7 vehicles (which is valuable to have, no doubt). I ran the numbers through the mathhammer app to get an idea of where they might stack up. Obviously, against T7 vehicles, the autocannons outdamage the bolter option. It starts at about half a point of damage different until you start stacking on the reroll auras, at which point it balloons to about 1.16 damage more.
Where it gets really insane is when you consider a T8 target with those same reroll auras applied. I don't know if this app is reputable (it's from the mathhammer 40k website guy) and I'm not in a position to run the numbers manually myself. but it indicates that the bolter guy does a whole 2.2 damage more than the autocannons, likely triggered entirely by those exploding sixes.
But now that I look at this, it doesn't make much sense. I think it's not working right with the exploding six logic...
Which brings us right back around - if it's the maths that are off, then the Deredeo is the superior choice here. My apologies!
I like stubborn heroism. Is one of the only proper "advantage but with a sensible drawback".
But it would probably be more balanced if it was for damage in meele.
Galas wrote: I like stubborn heroism. Is one of the only proper "advantage but with a sensible drawback".
But it would probably be more balanced if it was for damage in meele.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Isn't that Iron Warriors? I thought Iron Warriors were the siege assault specialists, but the Imperial Fists were the defense specialists?
Dorn did build the Imperial Palace, iirc.
As far as I'm aware at least up until the Horus Heresy novel's that's just fan fiction because apparently people can't stand two legions having the same specialization. I don't think it was ever spelled out as such a simple dichotomy in a GW publication. No clue what the Horus Heresy authors may have added or retconned there, though.
Also, if you want much better fan fiction, the relationship of the two legions should look like this: Imperial Fists are the siege masters. Iron Warriors are the siege apprentices.
Galas wrote: I like stubborn heroism. Is one of the only proper "advantage but with a sensible drawback".
But it would probably be more balanced if it was for damage in meele.
So 3 thunderfire canons and 9 quad rapier heavy bolters (you can buy them 3 per slot) comes to only 975...
The rapiers alone put out 108 shots and even with no rerolls average 90 hits do to their trait... All out to 48" ignoring cover at ap -2 and verse vehicles is 2 damage. The thunderfires hit whats hiding out of LOS lmao.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Hmm, I do like the autocannon idea, and even though it balloons the unit's cost a bit it does look pretty powerful, even if it's only more likely to wound against T7 vehicles (which is valuable to have, no doubt). I ran the numbers through the mathhammer app to get an idea of where they might stack up. Obviously, against T7 vehicles, the autocannons outdamage the bolter option. It starts at about half a point of damage different until you start stacking on the reroll auras, at which point it balloons to about 1.16 damage more.
Where it gets really insane is when you consider a T8 target with those same reroll auras applied. I don't know if this app is reputable (it's from the mathhammer 40k website guy) and I'm not in a position to run the numbers manually myself. but it indicates that the bolter guy does a whole 2.2 damage more than the autocannons, likely triggered entirely by those exploding sixes.
But now that I look at this, it doesn't make much sense. I think it's not working right with the exploding six logic...
Which brings us right back around - if it's the maths that are off, then the Deredeo is the superior choice here. My apologies!
Sterling191 wrote: Theres also the twin Kheres contemptor mortis to consider as basically a budget Leviathan.
I don’t really think so, unfortunately – speaking as someone who has one of those! I don’t see much of a case for a twin kheres over twin heavy bolter. Going from 24-36” range is massive.
That said, S7 is good. In the example above, it doesn’t only help against T7. It helps against T3, 5, 6 and 7. And the Deredeo’s S8 guns are better against T4 and 8 as well.
I wonder if the math hammer app is factoring in that the autocannons will do 3 damage. I just did some sums myself and Vs a T7 3+ target I have the Contemptor with heavy bolters doing 9.5 and the Deredeo (with nothing on the roof) doing 11.56. The autocontemptor (possibly the most 40k name I’ve yet heard) does 10.83 damage but is the most expensive of the lot. Autocontemptor does 13.05 vs S6 (bolter guy and Deredeo do the same as against S7) but only 7.56 vs T8. Against T8 The Deredeo drops to 9.33, while the heavy bolter guy is almost unchanged compared to T7 (8.45).
I also don’t think (though I haven’t done the sums) that the bolter/cyclone missile launcher is better vs infantry than the deredeo. It might slightly shade it against very soft targets. Deredeo is a lot better against T4 and way better against plaguebearers and Primaris.
By the way my methodology is to use excel. I write in the number of shots to a cell (e.g. A1), the chance to hit in the one below (A2), then chance to wound, chance to fail save and average damage in the cells under that. Then in another cell I calculate the average as “=A1*A2*A3*A4*A5. Do this for all the model’s guns, add up the results, and that’s your average damage. I find this pretty quick. I can just copy and paste the whole lot elsewhere in the sheet and change a few numbers to compare different weapons at once. I didn’t give any of my targets invulnerable saves, which would slightly harm the cyclone, redeemer and leviathan if they were present.
Our of curiosity I also checked a Storm Talon with heavy bolters. It’s significantly less good actually. Against T6 it does 7.56 wounds but against T7 or 8 it’s 5.77 – which is not a lot from 18 shots. I also looked at a redeemer. 9.39 vs T7 or 8, and 14.08 against T6. If a redeemer gets near a T5 vehicle, just remove it to save time.
I also looked at the invictor, wondering whether it should have a flamer or autocannons. I found the flamer beat the autocannons against T8 (doing 5.24 instead of 4.80) but lost out against T7 (doing 6.26 when the autocannon one did 7.14) and T6 (Still 6.25, vs 8.48).
Finally, I had a quick look at a stormcannon leviathan, with D3 guns. This thing is sick, but to be fair >50% more expensive than the other things we’re looking at. 13.89 vs T8 (nothing amazing for the price) but 20.83 vs T7 and 27.78 against T6. With rerolls, it could reasonably expect to kill a Crimson hunter with each of its guns.
I think that what this shows is that the wound roll and base damage still matter. Getting the most damage overall isn’t simply about the number of shots you fire, even with a buff to damage. What matters is the amount of wounding hits that get past a target’s saves, and of course the base damage still matters as well.
To test this theory I looked at a heavy onslaught gatling cannon vs a macro plasma incinerator. Luckily I only had to do this once, as S5 wounds all my targets on a 5+ and S9 wounds them all on a 3+. The plasma incinerator wins: 4.67 damage compared to the gatling’s 3.56. So even with the Fist bonus, 3.5 plasma shots are better than 12 (sort of) heavy bolter shots. That does change if the target has an invulnerable save though, or if it’s 30 plague bearers, so the HOGC might still be the best option. I now realise it would be interesting to compare the full output of the redemptory against our original dreadnoughts, but I’ve got to stop somewhere! Redemptors would be an obvious elite choice pick to unlock relic dreads.
Based on this analysis I still think the Deredeo looks like the way to go. The damage increase is significant vs all the targets I tested and it’s pretty consistently good against all tarets. The quad autocannon guy is significantly more expensive and not much better than the Deredeo vs anything. Eldar planes are the only common T6 targets I think, and the Deredeo is more accurate against them than the contemptor, so it still wins. The Leviathan is awesome in its way but I find its range too short and its risk of being tied up in melee too serious. Better to spread out threats, I think. Flyers might be worth considering, as a way to get at things you can’t see, but TFCs also do this job very well.
This all means there’s a pretty strong case for me finisihing painting my Deredeo. And I think the roof missiles are a perfectly good "take it or leave it" option if you have the points spare.
Red Corsair wrote: So 3 thunderfire canons and 9 quad rapier heavy bolters (you can buy them 3 per slot) comes to only 975...
The rapiers alone put out 108 shots and even with no rerolls average 90 hits do to their trait... All out to 48" ignoring cover at ap -2 and verse vehicles is 2 damage. The thunderfires hit whats hiding out of LOS lmao.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Hmm, I do like the autocannon idea, and even though it balloons the unit's cost a bit it does look pretty powerful, even if it's only more likely to wound against T7 vehicles (which is valuable to have, no doubt). I ran the numbers through the mathhammer app to get an idea of where they might stack up. Obviously, against T7 vehicles, the autocannons outdamage the bolter option. It starts at about half a point of damage different until you start stacking on the reroll auras, at which point it balloons to about 1.16 damage more.
Where it gets really insane is when you consider a T8 target with those same reroll auras applied. I don't know if this app is reputable (it's from the mathhammer 40k website guy) and I'm not in a position to run the numbers manually myself. but it indicates that the bolter guy does a whole 2.2 damage more than the autocannons, likely triggered entirely by those exploding sixes.
But now that I look at this, it doesn't make much sense. I think it's not working right with the exploding six logic...
Which brings us right back around - if it's the maths that are off, then the Deredeo is the superior choice here. My apologies!
Sterling191 wrote: Theres also the twin Kheres contemptor mortis to consider as basically a budget Leviathan.
I don’t really think so, unfortunately – speaking as someone who has one of those! I don’t see much of a case for a twin kheres over twin heavy bolter. Going from 24-36” range is massive.
That said, S7 is good. In the example above, it doesn’t only help against T7. It helps against T3, 5, 6 and 7. And the Deredeo’s S8 guns are better against T4 and 8 as well.
I wonder if the math hammer app is factoring in that the autocannons will do 3 damage. I just did some sums myself and Vs a T7 3+ target I have the Contemptor with heavy bolters doing 9.5 and the Deredeo (with nothing on the roof) doing 11.56. The autocontemptor (possibly the most 40k name I’ve yet heard) does 10.83 damage but is the most expensive of the lot. Autocontemptor does 13.05 vs S6 (bolter guy and Deredeo do the same as against S7) but only 7.56 vs T8. Against T8 The Deredeo drops to 9.33, while the heavy bolter guy is almost unchanged compared to T7 (8.45).
I also don’t think (though I haven’t done the sums) that the bolter/cyclone missile launcher is better vs infantry than the deredeo. It might slightly shade it against very soft targets. Deredeo is a lot better against T4 and way better against plaguebearers and Primaris.
By the way my methodology is to use excel. I write in the number of shots to a cell (e.g. A1), the chance to hit in the one below (A2), then chance to wound, chance to fail save and average damage in the cells under that. Then in another cell I calculate the average as “=A1*A2*A3*A4*A5. Do this for all the model’s guns, add up the results, and that’s your average damage. I find this pretty quick. I can just copy and paste the whole lot elsewhere in the sheet and change a few numbers to compare different weapons at once. I didn’t give any of my targets invulnerable saves, which would slightly harm the cyclone, redeemer and leviathan if they were present.
Our of curiosity I also checked a Storm Talon with heavy bolters. It’s significantly less good actually. Against T6 it does 7.56 wounds but against T7 or 8 it’s 5.77 – which is not a lot from 18 shots. I also looked at a redeemer. 9.39 vs T7 or 8, and 14.08 against T6. If a redeemer gets near a T5 vehicle, just remove it to save time.
I also looked at the invictor, wondering whether it should have a flamer or autocannons. I found the flamer beat the autocannons against T8 (doing 5.24 instead of 4.80) but lost out against T7 (doing 6.26 when the autocannon one did 7.14) and T6 (Still 6.25, vs 8.48).
Finally, I had a quick look at a stormcannon leviathan, with D3 guns. This thing is sick, but to be fair >50% more expensive than the other things we’re looking at. 13.89 vs T8 (nothing amazing for the price) but 20.83 vs T7 and 27.78 against T6. With rerolls, it could reasonably expect to kill a Crimson hunter with each of its guns.
I think that what this shows is that the wound roll and base damage still matter. Getting the most damage overall isn’t simply about the number of shots you fire, even with a buff to damage. What matters is the amount of wounding hits that get past a target’s saves, and of course the base damage still matters as well.
To test this theory I looked at a heavy onslaught gatling cannon vs a macro plasma incinerator. Luckily I only had to do this once, as S5 wounds all my targets on a 5+ and S9 wounds them all on a 3+. The plasma incinerator wins: 4.67 damage compared to the gatling’s 3.56. So even with the Fist bonus, 3.5 plasma shots are better than 12 (sort of) heavy bolter shots. That does change if the target has an invulnerable save though, or if it’s 30 plague bearers, so the HOGC might still be the best option. I now realise it would be interesting to compare the full output of the redemptory against our original dreadnoughts, but I’ve got to stop somewhere! Redemptors would be an obvious elite choice pick to unlock relic dreads.
Based on this analysis I still think the Deredeo looks like the way to go. The damage increase is significant vs all the targets I tested and it’s pretty consistently good against all tarets. The quad autocannon guy is significantly more expensive and not much better than the Deredeo vs anything. Eldar planes are the only common T6 targets I think, and the Deredeo is more accurate against them than the contemptor, so it still wins. The Leviathan is awesome in its way but I find its range too short and its risk of being tied up in melee too serious. Better to spread out threats, I think. Flyers might be worth considering, as a way to get at things you can’t see, but TFCs also do this job very well.
This all means there’s a pretty strong case for me finisihing painting my Deredeo. And I think the roof missiles are a perfectly good "take it or leave it" option if you have the points spare.
You're totally right that it is better against those other targets - I was making another unspoken assumption as to the purpose of either unit in my list. Boy am I a mess today! TGIF
Yeah, I took into account the 3 damage on the autocannons. The figures I received under the reroll auras (I felt safe assuming this for my use case on these units) was the boltertemptor (sounds suggestive) at 8.91 against T7, 3+ vehicle equivalents and the same against T8 3+, 5++ Knight style units with the cyclone adding 4.81 against T8 and 7.36 against T7 for a total of 13.72 vs T8 and 16.27 against T7. The cyclone is really what helps this vehicle compete with the nearly equal points costed Deredeo. Throw an immobile Deredeo in front of some unit with Fly and it's not really much of a comparison, though.
The Deredeo under the same circumstances was rocking 4.68 from the bolters against KEQ and VEQ, with 10.07 against KEQ and 13.43 against VEQ. You might wonder why I'm focusing so much on T7 and T8 over everything else - that was the unspoken assumption. These units with their high volume of shots and exploding hits are what I intend to use against those targets primarily, at least in the first few turns until they're dead and buried and I can move on to boltering everything else to death.
This comparison led me to believe either my D6+1 logic or the additional hit on a six logic is wrong. Either way, for my specific case I think they're similar enough that I might stick with the Relic Contemptors for a variety of unrelated reasons (unrelated to raw damage, that is) as the numbers appear to be close enough that the slight offensive downturn is worth some of the other tactical benefits I feel they may bring.
Ahh fair enough if you’re counting auras. I think I’m right in saying those should help the higher-strength weapons most, because they reroll a higher proportion of failed wounds and then more of those rerolls go on to wound. Likewise the deredeo doesn’t care much about invulnerable saves.
The overall outcome seems to be that these two similarly-priced models have very similar power. That seems to be working as intended. If you think the Contemptor is better, take it.
What do you reckon we should take to unlock these relics? Contemptor and redemptor dreads seem like good options to me. If taking redemptors it probably makes sense for the deredeos to bring shields. There are about a bajillion elite choices in the book though. I could see myself putting a few assault centurions in a redeemer for lols, though that’s probably awful. I like it for the “wait, what?” quality it brings.
Mandragola wrote: Ahh fair enough if you’re counting auras. I think I’m right in saying those should help the higher-strength weapons most, because they reroll a higher proportion of failed wounds and then more of those rerolls go on to wound. Likewise the deredeo doesn’t care much about invulnerable saves.
The overall outcome seems to be that these two similarly-priced models have very similar power. That seems to be working as intended. If you think the Contemptor is better, take it.
What do you reckon we should take to unlock these relics? Contemptor and redemptor dreads seem like good options to me. If taking redemptors it probably makes sense for the deredeos to bring shields. There are about a bajillion elite choices in the book though. I could see myself putting a few assault centurions in a redeemer for lols, though that’s probably awful. I like it for the “wait, what?” quality it brings.
I was planning on using Invictors for the decent offensive capability, early threat saturation, and to support other forward deployed Vanguard elements. I'm still vacillating between even having the forward element or just committing to more mobility in the list.
I guess pretty much anything could work. Aggressors seem great for Fists. Perhaps even Sternguard would be great. I wonder what the exploding sixes do for the maths on SiB vs storm Bolters...
Those assault cents would be hilarious. If I had a Redeemer I'd do it.
I noticed there's no dice again. This actually is reassuring for me, as it's now apparent that the packaging mistake is holding up the dice for everyone (I REALLY wanted iron hands dice)
IF Centurions are the go to now. With the spec detachment they're always in cover, and spit out a nauseating number of mortal wounds on vehicles. They were dirty before but they'll be a meta pick with d2 on their hbs. Mortal wounds vs IH, mortal wounds plus D2 HBs for everyone else.
Yes. It is about damn time with those Impulsors. I was about to have a friend 3D print a pair for me.
From the sounds of it, there is a good deal of stuff for Crimson Fists in the IF book (I still think we should get our own Super Doctrine since the other one doesn't fit us at all).
Def getting two Impulsors, the Codex Supplement, and an IF Upgrade box. I might get Tor as well, if I can kitbash him into a regular Captain in Gravis Armor easily enough.
I really want to see what the relics are in the book.
It’s definitely good that all the models are out and we can finally see the whole impact of the release. I’ve hated this spread out release myself and haven’t bought anything yet, since I didn’t know what would be good for my Crimson Fists. Still not sure I know!
As far as Rules go, the Fists seem by far the most interesting of the Two books here, at least to me. Salamanders seem to be sort of stuck with a chapter tactic that makes you good at hitting and a super doctrine for guns that don’t actually roll to hit. And of the two books released today, isn’t the one that adds +1 damage to heavy flamers actually better anyway?
Plus, flamers are for killing hordes. Primaris troops already beat hordes. Marginally better flamers aren’t required. They do look cool while they’re doing it though.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Does this mean that Primaris Sergeants will get access to Thunder Hammers and Hand Flamers now?
They already have that. Well, the Intercessors Sergeants have. GW for some reason doesn't seem to understand that it would be possible to glue the upgrade bits on other models as well.
Yeah I think they made a special model with hand flamer and chainsword. The store birthday mini or something. Now that there’s an upgrade sprue it should be allowed for all sergeants, probably replacing the bolt pistol.
It’s a terrible weapon of course. I guess you’d use it in cc, or for overwatch if you got a chance. You’re not likely to. Swapping out your rifle for a hand flamer would be an absurd choice, other than for flavour reasons.
Didn't like the Repulsor, but I am quite a fan of that.
However... Eldar get gak all dataslate changes and an over priced box and then suddenly we're back to Marine releases with a 14" moving AND THEN dismebarking model which can take a 4+ Invul?
Jacob29 wrote: Didn't like the Repulsor, but I am quite a fan of that.
However... Eldar get gak all dataslate changes and an over priced box and then suddenly we're back to Marine releases with a 14" moving AND THEN dismebarking model which can take a 4+ Invul?
Why is anyone surprised about the item that is in the Marines Codex and has been talked about incessantly since the codex dropped?
This article is two months late to be anything other than "meh".
Looks like I may be buying some Razorbacks to convert afterall. Put them hovering on a base, cut the back open, use the Lascannons (removing the barrels) as the side thrusters and the Heavy bolters (with 2 barrel holes drilled in each) as the Storm bolters and call it a day. Depends on what my son wants to do, but he's cheap, so I'm sure he'll not want to fork out over $100 for 2 models. We can get 2 NIB Razorbacks for less than $80 off eBay
Jacob29 wrote: Didn't like the Repulsor, but I am quite a fan of that.
However... Eldar get gak all dataslate changes and an over priced box and then suddenly we're back to Marine releases with a 14" moving AND THEN dismebarking model which can take a 4+ Invul?
Why is anyone surprised about the item that is in the Marines Codex and has been talked about incessantly since the codex dropped?
This article is two months late to be anything other than "meh".
I'm not surprised they got the model at long last.. I never knew the rules for it before now as I don't own their codex.
I'm just a fair bit
I suppose I am just getting a bit bored of all these new releases for Primaris where Space Marines are now the ultimate in the entire universe, have the best Tech (sorry Eldar and Tau!), the best weaponary, the strongest soldiers. Like their storyline is just dreadful, they used to be corruptable by Chaos.. now they allegedly aren't. Brilliant.
Well, there are other 45 quid items on the store that are $70. So it will either be $70 or $75. Highway robbery. I guess this will be a $200 purchase, but I am definitely going to use a store with 15% off this time though.
Exactly my thoughts. The only reason GW is charging $70-75 is because Primaris desperately need a non-gun boat transport, so they can get away with it.
I sincerely believe a slightly modified Razorback would fill in perfectly. You need the Razorback specifically for the HB/LC guns. I plan on taking the Lascannons, cut the barrels off, turn them backwards and glue them on the rear sides of the tank to look like the thrusters. Put it on a short flight column and a base, glue the tank treads on the sides like hover repulsors and call it a day.
It is annoyingly expensive for the standard dedicated transport which you ideally want many of. And I'm not a huge fan of how it looks. I really like the Repulsor, but this pickup design is kinda weird. I really need to see 360.
Third party guys really are not doing their job though. Repulsor style grav-rhino conversion set would probably sell pretty well.
Shouldn't it be? Repulsor was the grav Land Raider, this is the grav Rhino.
Size of Rhino should = Price of Rhino, MAYBE $5 more. LR and Repulsor are roughly the same cost
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Initial Repulsor yes, new Repulsor... not quite. They've been really generous with that one's price compared to a Land Raider.
Anyway, you won't see me disagree. I think GW was pushing it before this year's ample price increases. Afterwards, well, I'm not sure I'm even interested in their discount boxes anymore if the base price is so jacked up that the box gives you a decent percentage of discount and still ends up at the something like the 180€ price tag of the new Eldar one.
Shouldn't it be? Repulsor was the grav Land Raider, this is the grav Rhino.
So your taking thew stance that true scale primaris should be riding in an abstract clown car? Whats the point in primaris then?
You also fail to understand that I meant the impulser looks to be almost exactly the same size as a rhino lol. Yet it's double the price for some reason. Hell the old rhino even has a finished interior, just peel the rear top and glue plates where the tracks go.
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Crimson wrote: It is annoyingly expensive for the standard dedicated transport which you ideally want many of. And I'm not a huge fan of how it looks. I really like the Repulsor, but this pickup design is kinda weird. I really need to see 360.
Third party guys really are not doing their job though. Repulsor style grav-rhino conversion set would probably sell pretty well.
The issue I would guess, is that in order to put a roof on it that would clear a primaris head, it would end up looking like a fething U-'Haul box truck lol.
*ding dong*
"Primaris delivery!"
Red Corsair wrote: So your taking thew stance that true scale primaris should be riding in an abstract clown car? Whats the point in primaris then?
Making Marine players rebuy their army?
I don't think you'll get anywhere thinking of Primaris as true scale Marines. I very much doubt GW thinks of them that way. They are larger and should probably called impressively sized. Their physical presence is undeniable and has turned a lot of people off the look of old Marines. It's a veritable just as planned moment if you ask me. But I have a hard time believing that GW has any such lofty goal as could be described as true scale. Historically they're a company that has a comically distorted idea of human anatomy and is only starting to get a grasp on female facial features. The latest Chaos Terminators should have fixed Terminator anatomy after 30 years of dislocated shoulders and broken necks. Instead I got the impression they made it worse. Even if they tried anything that could be considered true scale, their house style of heroic proportions would get in the way of ever producing a convincing troop transport because different parts of models are differently scaled, and that just doesn't work with vehicles. It's troublesome enough to get a reasonably looking scabbard for the paddles GW models have for swords. And on the topic of scabbards, hilariously Reiver scabbards aren't even long enough to hide the full length of their combat knives' blades. GW doesn't do these things very well.
If true scale is your thing, looking to GW for a fix is a bit optimistic.
Red Corsair wrote: You also fail to understand that I meant the impulser looks to be almost exactly the same size as a rhino lol. Yet it's double the price for some reason. Hell the old rhino even has a finished interior, just peel the rear top and glue plates where the tracks go.
The only thing I failed to understand is that you had hoped for a true scale vehicle (but as detailed above, my take is that that's not something you should expect from GW), which is why I asked. That's not readily apparent from what you wrote. The Impulsor takes visual cues from the Rhino. We have pictures of it next to Marines. It's not hard to figure out it's in the Rhino size category.
RandyMcStab wrote: It's very expensive yes but it looks to be nearly the width of an Repulsor in the Codex pics. So not Rhino sized at all.
Well the Repulsor is slightly smaller (but taller) than a LR, and the Impulsor is certainly smaller then a Repulsor (though not by much) and it looks like most of the extended width is due to the side thrusters (which can easily be added to a Rhino chasis). Ergo, the overall bulk of the Impulsor is not THAT much more than a Razorback and thus should NOT be: A) almost twice the cost or B) too difficult to emulate with the existing RB kit plus a little bit of modeling effort (which I personally have far more of they actual $$ for minis)
I assume the Ironhail Skytalon Array will be much cheaper than the Bellicatus Missile Array (Lol, 3 tipes of missiles, it looks like a salad of misiles or something) because if not whats the point of changing d3 F7 3d Damage anti flyer missiles and the other options vs 6 F4 1 Damage anti flyer gun.
Skytalon is 5 points. The missile is I want to say 17 (its been awhile since I peeked at the Codex, the costs are already there for it and all of its gear). I suspect the dome is the way competitve folks will go, especially if they're planning a Hellblaster rush, but dont count out the other options (or even just naked). There's a good amount of variety and its well costed IMO.
Jacob29 wrote: Didn't like the Repulsor, but I am quite a fan of that.
However... Eldar get gak all dataslate changes and an over priced box and then suddenly we're back to Marine releases with a 14" moving AND THEN dismebarking model which can take a 4+ Invul?
Why is anyone surprised about the item that is in the Marines Codex and has been talked about incessantly since the codex dropped?
This article is two months late to be anything other than "meh".
Well its also the reaction when there is already massively bloated and complete range for a sub faction and its the huge number of sub-sub factions and constant releses for it - there is so much already to compare it to - its just Meh - oh yet another vehicle to consider.
Meanwhile all the other Factions wait to see when GW spins the wheel of non Marine factions to see who gets something between......marine releases.
Given the enduarance, speed and agility of Marines - open topped vehicle kinda makes sense - plus makes the inevitable Ork Konversions easier
Yeehaw! The Segmentum Tempestus will rise again!
Painting one like the General Lee from the Dukes of Hazard would be quite fun
I've been posting quite frequently that the Marines codex, when it dropped, saw basically none of the new items that the book brought.
This wasn't a surprise, this isn't interrupting anything. This was just a dragged out release. Rather than let each supplement 'wave' come out by itself with a single character, upgrade frame, and datacards--they held chunks of the actual new items back.
Kanluwen wrote: I've been posting quite frequently that the Marines codex, when it dropped, saw basically none of the new items that the book brought.
This wasn't a surprise, this isn't interrupting anything. This was just a dragged out release. Rather than let each supplement 'wave' come out by itself with a single character, upgrade frame, and datacards--they held chunks of the actual new items back.
It's a terrible marketing strategy. All I wanted was Impulsors for the past month but can't buy impulsors...So I've just been painting and not buying stuff. GJGW. Costing yourself money. All of this stuff has been ready to ship out for months.
Platuan4th wrote: Yes, but surely that simply means you've saved enough money to pre-order 6, right? GW marketing genius!
Oh I'm gonna buy 3 right off the bat but I was gonna do that anyways...Literally the only thing that keeps me from buying my plastic crack is not being able to buy the plastic crack that I want at the time I want.
I'll definatly be buying some myself. whatever the cost if you wanna run mechanized you need transports, and it's eaither impulsors or repulsors, and repulsors are too points inefficant for a mechanized list.
So far the price point has kept me from expanding my dunerider forces beyond my initial order for mechanicus. If they were $50 or $60, I'd probably have grabbed 2-3 more by now. Same with the Incursor. If it was $60, I'd probably go up to 3 or 4, instead of just 2.
IanVanCheese wrote: Worth pointing out, they haven't fixed the error on the IF upgrade sprue. The fist symbol is still backwards on the power fist.
Not a huge issue for me, but some people were super upset about it.
There was an interesting discussion about heraldry over on B&C. Someone who has studied the subject actually showed how there actually isn't an error - it matches historical heraldic principles perfectly, and as such is much more of a win for authenticity than people realize.
IanVanCheese wrote: Worth pointing out, they haven't fixed the error on the IF upgrade sprue. The fist symbol is still backwards on the power fist.
Not a huge issue for me, but some people were super upset about it.
There was an interesting discussion about heraldry over on B&C. Someone who has studied the subject actually showed how there actually isn't an error - it matches historical heraldic principles perfectly, and as such is much more of a win for authenticity than people realize.
IanVanCheese wrote: Worth pointing out, they haven't fixed the error on the IF upgrade sprue. The fist symbol is still backwards on the power fist.
Not a huge issue for me, but some people were super upset about it.
There was an interesting discussion about heraldry over on B&C. Someone who has studied the subject actually showed how there actually isn't an error - it matches historical heraldic principles perfectly, and as such is much more of a win for authenticity than people realize.
IanVanCheese wrote: Worth pointing out, they haven't fixed the error on the IF upgrade sprue. The fist symbol is still backwards on the power fist.
Not a huge issue for me, but some people were super upset about it.
There was an interesting discussion about heraldry over on B&C. Someone who has studied the subject actually showed how there actually isn't an error - it matches historical heraldic principles perfectly, and as such is much more of a win for authenticity than people realize.
Got a link or quote?
On mobile so it's hard to search back for it, so I'll grab one when I get home. I'll try to paraphrase and hopefully do it justice. It's regarding two key parts for symbols: facing and perspective.
In the case of things like animal heads, they always look to the front of the bearer. In the case of body parts like the fist, the thumb points to the front. But facing is considered in a resting position, like when standing at attention, so the symbol has to be reversed so the thumb points forwards. The Americans use this concept with their military personnel - the flag on American uniforms faces forward, similar to how it would look carried aloft in combat by a standard bearer. Facing the enemy. Always moving forward.
Then we consider perspective. Apparently, historical precedent for asymmetrical symbols mounted on things like gloves and rings and weapons are that they face the bearer. This way, if one placed their hands palm down on a table to swear an oath or something, the symbols would be facing the bearer and pointing towards their heart.
Which is why the left handed power fist has the thumb pointed forward (facing) and the orientation flipped vertically (bearer's perspective).
IanVanCheese wrote: Worth pointing out, they haven't fixed the error on the IF upgrade sprue. The fist symbol is still backwards on the power fist.
Not a huge issue for me, but some people were super upset about it.
There was an interesting discussion about heraldry over on B&C. Someone who has studied the subject actually showed how there actually isn't an error - it matches historical heraldic principles perfectly, and as such is much more of a win for authenticity than people realize.
Got a link or quote?
On mobile so it's hard to search back for it, so I'll grab one when I get home. I'll try to paraphrase and hopefully do it justice. It's regarding two key parts for symbols: facing and perspective.
In the case of things like animal heads, they always look to the front of the bearer. In the case of body parts like the fist, the thumb points to the front. But facing is considered in a resting position, like when standing at attention, so the symbol has to be reversed so the thumb points forwards. The Americans use this concept with their military personnel - the flag on American uniforms faces forward, similar to how it would look carried aloft in combat by a standard bearer. Facing the enemy. Always moving forward.
Then we consider perspective. Apparently, historical precedent for asymmetrical symbols mounted on things like gloves and rings and weapons are that they face the bearer. This way, if one placed their hands palm down on a table to swear an oath or something, the symbols would be facing the bearer and pointing towards their heart.
Which is why the left handed power fist has the thumb pointed forward (facing) and the orientation flipped vertically (bearer's perspective).
I dig it.
Thank you.
If I got that right, and it certainly seems sensibly explained, I don't think I can believe it applies to the chapter badge on the fist. I'll stick with my solution and use a knife.
IanVanCheese wrote: Worth pointing out, they haven't fixed the error on the IF upgrade sprue. The fist symbol is still backwards on the power fist.
Not a huge issue for me, but some people were super upset about it.
There was an interesting discussion about heraldry over on B&C. Someone who has studied the subject actually showed how there actually isn't an error - it matches historical heraldic principles perfectly, and as such is much more of a win for authenticity than people realize.
Got a link or quote?
On mobile so it's hard to search back for it, so I'll grab one when I get home. I'll try to paraphrase and hopefully do it justice. It's regarding two key parts for symbols: facing and perspective.
In the case of things like animal heads, they always look to the front of the bearer. In the case of body parts like the fist, the thumb points to the front. But facing is considered in a resting position, like when standing at attention, so the symbol has to be reversed so the thumb points forwards. The Americans use this concept with their military personnel - the flag on American uniforms faces forward, similar to how it would look carried aloft in combat by a standard bearer. Facing the enemy. Always moving forward.
Then we consider perspective. Apparently, historical precedent for asymmetrical symbols mounted on things like gloves and rings and weapons are that they face the bearer. This way, if one placed their hands palm down on a table to swear an oath or something, the symbols would be facing the bearer and pointing towards their heart.
Which is why the left handed power fist has the thumb pointed forward (facing) and the orientation flipped vertically (bearer's perspective).
I dig it.
Thank you.
If I got that right, and it certainly seems sensibly explained, I don't think I can believe it applies to the chapter badge on the fist. I'll stick with my solution and use a knife.
Fair enough. Could always use one of the new transfer sheets if you even want the symbol.
I think the biggest issue I'm going to run into is trying to make sure my Primaris sarges don't all look identical, symbol or otherwise...
Suppose it's a good thing I won't have many fist bearers.
IanVanCheese wrote: Worth pointing out, they haven't fixed the error on the IF upgrade sprue. The fist symbol is still backwards on the power fist.
Not a huge issue for me, but some people were super upset about it.
There was an interesting discussion about heraldry over on B&C. Someone who has studied the subject actually showed how there actually isn't an error - it matches historical heraldic principles perfectly, and as such is much more of a win for authenticity than people realize.
Got a link or quote?
On mobile so it's hard to search back for it, so I'll grab one when I get home. I'll try to paraphrase and hopefully do it justice. It's regarding two key parts for symbols: facing and perspective.
In the case of things like animal heads, they always look to the front of the bearer. In the case of body parts like the fist, the thumb points to the front. But facing is considered in a resting position, like when standing at attention, so the symbol has to be reversed so the thumb points forwards. The Americans use this concept with their military personnel - the flag on American uniforms faces forward, similar to how it would look carried aloft in combat by a standard bearer. Facing the enemy. Always moving forward.
Then we consider perspective. Apparently, historical precedent for asymmetrical symbols mounted on things like gloves and rings and weapons are that they face the bearer. This way, if one placed their hands palm down on a table to swear an oath or something, the symbols would be facing the bearer and pointing towards their heart.
Which is why the left handed power fist has the thumb pointed forward (facing) and the orientation flipped vertically (bearer's perspective).
I dig it.
Thank you.
If I got that right, and it certainly seems sensibly explained, I don't think I can believe it applies to the chapter badge on the fist. I'll stick with my solution and use a knife.
Fair enough. Could always use one of the new transfer sheets if you even want the symbol.
I think the biggest issue I'm going to run into is trying to make sure my Primaris sarges don't all look identical, symbol or otherwise...
Suppose it's a good thing I won't have many fist bearers.
Eh, I can sculpt, so it's not like I don't have alternatives. Plus I don't need my models to suffer from fist overload, so it's not a loss to have a plain power fist. But it can't hurt to have a look around and read an explanation that may give me a better feeling about what I thought was a sculpting error.
Platuan4th wrote: Yes, but surely that simply means you've saved enough money to pre-order 6, right? GW marketing genius!
Oh I'm gonna buy 3 right off the bat but I was gonna do that anyways...Literally the only thing that keeps me from buying my plastic crack is not being able to buy the plastic crack that I want at the time I want.
So they haven't cost themselves any money? You're buying the same amount you would anyway? Just smoothing the profits curve a little.
Forget Impulsors...just waiting on the Incursors to complete my RG army (although to be fair, still have plenty of painting to do.) he Q is, will it be easy to make a 2nd HW mine as I know the box will only have the one for a marker (I guess I could clip the one the guy is carrying).
Kanluwen wrote: It will be doubled up sprues in all likelihood. That's how all the Primaris stuff has been to date for the "Troops" choices.
I hope that is the case. I want to make three squads of 5 Infiltrators and one squad of Incursors by combining one of these kits with the Shadowspear Infiltrators.
I'm pretty excited to pick up a box of Infiltrators/Incursors and use the extra parts to make some of the Reivers I have into more useful dudes. Figure I can mix bodies and end up with ten of each from a single box since Reivers are worthless.
Man, at first when I saw Wrack and Ruin I thought that would be great for ITC magic boxes, until I noticed that the unit had to be visible (womp womp).
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm pretty excited to pick up a box of Infiltrators/Incursors and use the extra parts to make some of the Reivers I have into more useful dudes. Figure I can mix bodies and end up with ten of each from a single box since Reivers are worthless.
Hope this is right. I think maybe the models will share a gun, with an added scope, rather than having one of each type. I guess you could stick the scope on a reiver's carbine thing though. You do seem to get enough heads for everyone.
The bigger issue with the Fist for me is that it’s too small for a Primaris marine. It looks like they just took an old MK VII one and stuck it to the sprue, though presumably they took the time to add on the symbol (apparently facing the right way) first. But the guy’s arm is not long enough.
It’s odd. Once I saw that it was too small I found I couldn’t unsee it. I’ve given my characters power fists from Terminators instead and they look much better.
Edit: that rules preview tells us virtually nothing, right?
I guess it’s good to see the leaked rules were true, including the super doctrine, which we hadn’t seen in print before.
The psychic power provides a way of causing 1.5 wounds to a unit in terrain on average, which is lower than the 2 average damage from smite and useless against targets that aren’t in terrain. 3 average damage against a building would be cool, if anyone took buildings ever.
Tor Garadon feels like a missed opportunity to me. He’s like Feirros, except without the things that make Feirros good.
As a Crimson Fist player it’s nice to hear that I’ll be able to use the Fist of Vengeance power again. It’s less clear if I’m able to use all these Imperial Fist-only things. Was it ever clarified if Crimson Fists could take the siege detachment?
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm pretty excited to pick up a box of Infiltrators/Incursors and use the extra parts to make some of the Reivers I have into more useful dudes. Figure I can mix bodies and end up with ten of each from a single box since Reivers are worthless.
Hope this is right. I think maybe the models will share a gun, with an added scope, rather than having one of each type. I guess you could stick the scope on a reiver's carbine thing though. You do seem to get enough heads for everyone.
I had not considered that but you may be right. The bolters could have optional scope/ammo piece like the Intercessor bolt rifles to save on arms. Could still be workable with Reiver Bolt Carbines, but a little more work than I'd thought.
What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.
The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.
Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.
Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...
Lemondish wrote: What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.
The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.
Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.
Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...
It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.
Yeah, and it's cast on a 6...and does wounds on a 5+...that's better across the board than the Thousand Sons version, only exception is the target unit needs to be wholly within a terrain feature. That's common where I play. It does mean people will start leaving one model from each squad just outside of terrain though to try to avoid it.
That is NOT a bad spell by any stretch if you play on tables with actual terrain. The same can be said for the IF trait, but....most people play on crap tables where it doesn't come into play.
PS: I'm pretty sure you could snipe characters in cover with that as well...so...yeah that's a great spell.
Elbows wrote: Yeah, and it's cast on a 6...and does wounds on a 5+...that's better across the board than the Thousand Sons version, only exception is the target unit needs to be wholly within a terrain feature. That's common where I play. It does mean people will start leaving one model from each squad just outside of terrain though to try to avoid it.
That is NOT a bad spell by any stretch if you play on tables with actual terrain. The same can be said for the IF trait, but....most people play on crap tables where it doesn't come into play.
PS: I'm pretty sure you could snipe characters in cover with that as well...so...yeah that's a great spell.
Average of 3 mortal wounds isn't bad either. I feel like the best use for it would be things like Devastators or Heavy Weapon Teams parked up high in a building.
Ahh ok, yes I see now that it does mortal wounds on a 5+. I'd initially read it as 6+ for some reason. An average 3 mortal wounds isn't too bad. It could be great for hitting characters with, as a good roll could kill people.
Your opponent can just get out of terrain though I guess. They may as well, since your whole army ignores cover.
It's arguably better for a successor that doesn't ignore cover, like Crimson Fists, than it is for Imperial Fists.
Mandragola wrote: Ahh ok, yes I see now that it does mortal wounds on a 5+. I'd initially read it as 6+ for some reason. An average 3 mortal wounds isn't too bad. It could be great for hitting characters with, as a good roll could kill people.
Your opponent can just get out of terrain though I guess. They may as well, since your whole army ignores cover.
It's arguably better for a successor that doesn't ignore cover, like Crimson Fists, than it is for Imperial Fists.
Terrain can still be used to keep things out of line of sight, or make it easier to gain LoS. Even if it doesn't give a cover save, it still has useful functionality.
Marine mini dexes are taking GW's love of Marines to the extreme. I'm glad all of the Space Marine players got a dex for their army, but after these two releases, can we go back to looking at other topics? We still have the updates on all of the other marine chapters to have to wade through (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Black Templars, Deathwatch). SOOOO tired of marines. The only way this makes me happy is if GW brings an end to soup lists and goes back to "just play with the stuff in your dex."
So, from another thread, apparently with the christmas releases GW's putting out start collecting chaos and SM Vanguard boxes that take the seperate parts from shadowspear
Smellingsalts wrote: Marine mini dexes are taking GW's love of Marines to the extreme. I'm glad all of the Space Marine players got a dex for their army, but after these two releases, can we go back to looking at other topics? We still have the updates on all of the other marine chapters to have to wade through (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Black Templars, Deathwatch). SOOOO tired of marines. The only way this makes me happy is if GW brings an end to soup lists and goes back to "just play with the stuff in your dex."
If you're tired of marines, why did you click on this thread, and create this 'compelling' response?
You can be tired of marines, or even the game in general, and still be interested in following its developments so you can stay aware of the game's evolution. I play CSM and Eldar...but I'm still reading these threads so I'm aware of the pulse of the game.
Lemondish wrote: What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.
The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.
Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.
Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...
It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.
Any unit "wholly within" terrain.
Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.
Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.
A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.
This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.
You can definitely plan against it, but if you play on a board with quality terrain the chances of finding something within terrain is pretty high. If anything the power could serve to double up on the "don't go in terrain" methodology, so it could be taken simply as a scare tactic.
I bet even the savviest of players will forget and have a walker or a character, etc. end up in terrain without realizing it. It's a strong spell that will require a lot of concentration to remember the play your game entirely out-of-cover. I'd bet you could reasonable use out of it in most games. Doubly so if you have objective markers inside a terrain feature.
Lemondish wrote: What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.
The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.
Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.
Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...
It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.
Any unit "wholly within" terrain.
Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.
Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.
A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.
This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.
remember this codex applies to IF sucessors as well, so someone playing as the "White Gauntlets" sucessor chapter might have a differant list of traits and thus not ignore cover
Terrain has more uses than just cover saves. Like giving heavy weapons better line of sight so they don't have to move.
And if you can make your opponent leave models out of terrain, and thus easier to see and shoot, just to avoid a psychic power then the power is still doing something, even if you don't cast it
Lemondish wrote: What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.
The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.
Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.
Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...
It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.
Any unit "wholly within" terrain.
Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.
Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.
A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.
This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.
Exactly. The thing that's great about Imperial Fists is they force the opponent to deploy differently. They're super powerful when you think about it that way.
So when then opponent won't use terrain a lot...why is this even a power?
Lemondish wrote: What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.
The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.
Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.
Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...
It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.
Any unit "wholly within" terrain.
Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.
Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.
A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.
This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.
Exactly. The thing that's great about Imperial Fists is they force the opponent to deploy differently. They're super powerful when you think about it that way.
So when then opponent won't use terrain a lot...why is this even a power?
could be something GW expects to see more from Imperial fist sucessors?
Do people not play with buildings taller than 1 level outsode of my FLGS or something? A unit at the top of a building is harder to charge. It also gets better LOS to the rest of the table. It can also limit how they can be effectively targetted by enemy units.
A cover save is only part of the reason terrain is important. This idea that people won't use terrain at all just because of this is silly.
I don't get the craze though. So it's a targeted smite that averages 3 Mortal Wounds instead of most targeted smites averaging just 1 or 2, but requires both visibility and to be in terrain.
Things like Eldar Executioner is probably still better against infantry with 1-wound models, as it averages 4 Mortal Wounds, doesn't need LOS and has no terrain requirement. Most TS targeted smites are also more versatile. The IF spell is not bad, but it's not the thing that should worry people about Marines, lol.
Sunny Side Up wrote: I don't get the craze though. So it's a targeted smite that averages 3 Mortal Wounds instead of most targeted smites averaging just 1 or 2, but requires both visibility and to be in terrain.
Things like Eldar Executioner is probably still better against infantry with 1-wound models, as it averages 4 Mortal Wounds, doesn't need LOS and has no terrain requirement. Most TS targeted smites are also more versatile. The IF spell is not bad, but it's not the thing that should worry people about Marines, lol.
No one is saying it's the best thing ever, but it doesn't have to target the closest unit, has an easy casting value and good average number of mortals meaning it's a decent option if you're trying to take extra MW options.
Of course, but the power does nothing against a unit out of LoS and outside terrain. That's not unique to this power - few things ignore LoS - but the power does nothing to help in that situation.
Basically it says to your opponent "not only do you gain no benefit from cover, you also get killed by it". They're likely to respond by getting out of the cover. As has been pointed out, even a single model outside the terrain prevents this power from working, so it's not even really preventing them from moving through terrain.
Mandragola wrote: Of course, but the power does nothing against a unit out of LoS and outside terrain. That's not unique to this power - few things ignore LoS - but the power does nothing to help in that situation.
Basically it says to your opponent "not only do you gain no benefit from cover, you also get killed by it". They're likely to respond by getting out of the cover. As has been pointed out, even a single model outside the terrain prevents this power from working, so it's not even really preventing them from moving through terrain.
Exactly my initial read on it as well.
Though in hindsight it does seem like it's reliably useful against snipers and the like who feel forced into terrain to get the best vantage point?
There is value, however small, in forcing your opponent to play around your selected powers so that they deny you use of the ability. You're each giving something up here though, and I honestly find my spell slots too valuable to commit to a single 'gotcha' move that only works when my opponent is playing poorly with positioning. Situationally powerful? I think we can agree on that assessment.
Combined with a preview of a relic we've already seen, a copy of the same stratagem every supplement gets (identical to Engine Purge from Iron Hands), a CF relic that has existed for almost all of 8th, and an admittedly cool trait in Indomitable. I'm still pretty annoyed with the limitations on that Doctrine, and with so few actual hits there in the rest of the preview I'm simultaneously hopeful they gave us only what we could already confirm mostly from the leaks, and dreading the idea that these are the best options they had to show and the rest are duds.
So the Salamander preview is up, but look at this picture:
Do those bits of rubble across the lower right through middle right look new to you?
They appear to be various rubble/junk, but all part of an integral textured base. Then the bit the Reiver is standing on appears to be another ruin with an integral base.
I cannot find these pieces in any other terrain kit (they're not part of this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or even this).
Was scanning IA for salamander potential winners and hit on rappers and thought omg imperial fists.
9 quad heavy bolters could it be good... 96 (morenlike 112 with 6s being another shot) s5 minus 2 2dmg vs vehicles. Obv with a chapter master with reroll wounds 1 wounds thing
Don't think so. If they were relics with 1-3 squadrons you could take 3 slots of HS and then 9 rapier's. But they are unit size 1. So each datasheet you take=1 gun. Rule of 3=max 3 datasheets=max 3 rapiers.
From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!
Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!
Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!
That bit was arm and shoulder pad in Vanguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tank Hunters Strat giving +1 to wound versus vehicles makes IF even better tank hunters.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!
Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!
That bit was arm and shoulder pad in Vanguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tank Hunters Strat giving +1 to wound versus vehicles makes IF even better tank hunters.
Huh? I don't understand what you mean about the Helix Adept.
+1 to Wound v. Vehicles is pretty mean. That makes things like Suppressors even crazier.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!
Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!
I see 11 bolter bodies, and 5 of each bolter receiver on a set of frames. And one haywire mine. so double that per box.
Parts to make one commo guy per 5, but no parts for a helix adept, which is only in the shadowspear models it seems.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!
Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!
That bit was arm and shoulder pad in Vanguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tank Hunters Strat giving +1 to wound versus vehicles makes IF even better tank hunters.
Huh? I don't understand what you mean about the Helix Adept.
+1 to Wound v. Vehicles is pretty mean. That makes things like Suppressors even crazier.
I meant the bit you're looking for should just be an arm with some bulb looking bits on it for the Helix Adept.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!
Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!
I see 11 bolter bodies, and 5 of each bolter receiver on a set of frames. And one haywire mine. so double that per box.
Parts to make one commo guy per 5, but no parts for a helix adept, which is only in the shadowspear models it seems.
Well, I will probably have to figure something out for the Helix Adepts, but the Incursors using the extra arms and Reiver bodies will work great. I won't be able to do three squads of Incursors, but I can do four Infiltrator Squads and two Incursor Squads. That is pretty great.
The Helix Adept arm might be able to be done by swiping some bulb bits from some Ad Mech guns.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!
Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!
I see 11 bolter bodies, and 5 of each bolter receiver on a set of frames. And one haywire mine. so double that per box.
Parts to make one commo guy per 5, but no parts for a helix adept, which is only in the shadowspear models it seems.
Well, I will probably have to figure something out for the Helix Adepts, but the Incursors using the extra arms and Reiver bodies will work great. I won't be able to do three squads of Incursors, but I can do four Infiltrator Squads and two Incursor Squads. That is pretty great.
The Helix Adept arm might be able to be done by swiping some bulb bits from some Ad Mech guns.
+1 to wound stratagem works with centurion cohort 6+ mortal wound strat. There's also a strat to let a IF unit fire their boltguns in combat as if they were pistols. So a 6 block of centurions are going to be exploding twice with a 1 cp strat on 6s to hit. Against vehicles they will be doing a mortal wound on a 5+. If they do get locked in combat they can delete whatever touched them by firing 6 HB shots and 6 Hurricane bolter shots each (can still MW strat them if the taggers are vehicles) as pistols. Granted they're pistols so no 12 shot hurricanes or -1 AP, but still, pretty solid.
Just having a look at the preorder stuff in NZ. The impulsor looks cool. One slight issue is you don’t get a guy to fire the pintle stubber. It has handles but nobody to hold them. Good way to avoid the AA stubbers shooting him in the back I guess.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: +1 to wound stratagem works with centurion cohort 6+ mortal wound strat. There's also a strat to let a IF unit fire their boltguns in combat as if they were pistols. So a 6 block of centurions are going to be exploding twice with a 1 cp strat on 6s to hit. Against vehicles they will be doing a mortal wound on a 5+. If they do get locked in combat they can delete whatever touched them by firing 6 HB shots and 6 Hurricane bolter shots each (can still MW strat them if the taggers are vehicles) as pistols. Granted they're pistols so no 12 shot hurricanes or -1 AP, but still, pretty solid.
But how likely is it that the Siegebreaker Cohort strat doesn't get errata'd out of the book? Both the relic and the warlord trait from Vigilus are in the IF Supplement with the same name but a different effect.
ClockworkZion wrote: I meant the bit you're looking for should just be an arm with some bulb looking bits on it for the Helix Adept.
"Bulb bits"? What? He has pretty much a full Narthecium and big medic bag, literally the only difference with a full apothecary is the fact the saw thing is separate. He should be given pretty much the entire apothecary part kit from old marine boxes to fit IMO.
Even though its a relatively minor thing, the absence of any Helix Adept parts from the multipart kit does leave a bad taste in the mouth. I guess GW really want to make sure the Shadowspear sprues sell when they repack them(as if the Lt and Suppressor's were not enough already)
Tibs Ironblood wrote: +1 to wound stratagem works with centurion cohort 6+ mortal wound strat. There's also a strat to let a IF unit fire their boltguns in combat as if they were pistols. So a 6 block of centurions are going to be exploding twice with a 1 cp strat on 6s to hit. Against vehicles they will be doing a mortal wound on a 5+. If they do get locked in combat they can delete whatever touched them by firing 6 HB shots and 6 Hurricane bolter shots each (can still MW strat them if the taggers are vehicles) as pistols. Granted they're pistols so no 12 shot hurricanes or -1 AP, but still, pretty solid.
But how likely is it that the Siegebreaker Cohort strat doesn't get errata'd out of the book? Both the relic and the warlord trait from Vigilus are in the IF Supplement with the same name but a different effect.
pretty unlikely as GW's addressed a few similer cases already, the specialist detachments are still viable, exept where over ridden. So, for example, I can take the indomatus crusade veterans specialist detachment, but the stratigiums are now the ones found in codex space marines, the relics are the ones found in codex space marines etc. but I can still take it and sue the grey sheild warlord trait.
ClockworkZion wrote: I meant the bit you're looking for should just be an arm with some bulb looking bits on it for the Helix Adept.
"Bulb bits"? What? He has pretty much a full Narthecium and big medic bag, literally the only difference with a full apothecary is the fact the saw thing is separate. He should be given pretty much the entire apothecary part kit from old marine boxes to fit IMO.
I am probably going to use the Comms unit arm as a base and cut the forearm off and put an Apothecary forearm on its place. Might need to cut the hand off since Primaris hands are bigger.
Prometheum5 wrote: Fortunately the Helix Adept is terrible so the one from Shadowspear is enough for me.
I don't think it is terrible. Being able to heal your objective campers is nice. Better than re-roll ones with bolters that requires you to have a subpar HQ. Granted, all version of an Apothecary are probably a tad overcosted. Anyway, not having the bits in the box is really stupid and annoying.
That's what I am wondering. I like them because they are thematic. And making my Troops more survivable is pretty great. And there is no loss in effectiveness for the unit.
And terrible or not, it is an option for the unit that isn't available for sale outside of a boxed set. It is stupid.
That's what I am wondering. I like them because they are thematic. And making my Troops more survivable is pretty great. And there is no loss in effectiveness for the unit.
And terrible or not, it is an option for the unit that isn't available for sale outside of a boxed set. It is stupid.
Me think an overcosted clampack be arriving to "fix" the lack of the option, just like Plague Marines had them overcosted clampacks and the 3 model reinforcement pack.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: Me think an overcosted clampack be arriving to "fix" the lack of the option, just like Plague Marines had them overcosted clampacks and the 3 model reinforcement pack.
3 model 'reinforcement pack' was originally a limited quantities item that included a whole bunch of really cool artwork in a pamphlet and the individual models were named. They unfortunately weren't given any special rules though.
The Icon Bearer, at least, has an acceptable purpose: Allowing for someone who is building off of Dark Imperium and its associated bits to add an Icon Bearer to their units without needing to buy a whole box just for the parts.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: +1 to wound stratagem works with centurion cohort 6+ mortal wound strat. There's also a strat to let a IF unit fire their boltguns in combat as if they were pistols. So a 6 block of centurions are going to be exploding twice with a 1 cp strat on 6s to hit. Against vehicles they will be doing a mortal wound on a 5+. If they do get locked in combat they can delete whatever touched them by firing 6 HB shots and 6 Hurricane bolter shots each (can still MW strat them if the taggers are vehicles) as pistols. Granted they're pistols so no 12 shot hurricanes or -1 AP, but still, pretty solid.
Bolter Eliminators doing mortals on 4+ and wounding t8 on 3+ if Guided are also quite cool. Ok, just 2 shots. But very good ones.
Bolter Agressors will make a good use of the pistol strat, too.
I don't really agree with Goonhammer but that's because gunline Marines aren't that great of a build and honestly we should be pushing forward onto objectives instead of being worse at the gunline than the Guard.
Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.
Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.
Most of the ones out are from Canadians or Brits, you prick!
Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.
Most of the ones out are from Canadians or Brits, you prick!
Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.
Most of the ones out are from Canadians or Brits, you prick!
He might have been a Canadian! I can't tell.
If it was GMG or Miniwargaming, they are Canadian. There aren't many US reviewers out there.
Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.
Most of the ones out are from Canadians or Brits, you prick!
He might have been a Canadian! I can't tell.
Just ask them to say "colour" or "armour". That silent you makes it completely different.
I am looking at doing Indomitable or Stubborn Heroism and Refuse to Die for my Captain. Makes him hard to kill and then makes him hard to keep down. I am liking the Fist of Terra relic. Two relic Power Fists to choose from is pretty great.
Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.
Most of the ones out are from Canadians or Brits, you prick!
He might have been a Canadian! I can't tell.
Don't make me hurt you!
But yeah a written review is nice. I agree much better then youtube. I disagree with his idea that indomatable from vigilus is still usable, the new one clearly overwrites the other
Pedro has got subtly better in a few ways, with the effect that overall he looks like a pretty solid option all round. He now has seven attacks on the charge. Proper full rerolls for everyone nearby, and also +1 attack. And he might do stuff with his gun from time to time. I'm pretty happy with this.
Crimson wrote: Pedro is really good. He basically has a primaris statline too. My only problem with him is that he can't ride the primaris transports.
That is my issue as well. I would love for him to have had a rule that allowed it. But he hits like a tank and grants OpSec with his WL trait. Not bad.
I believe there is a way to give him a different WL trait using a Stratagem. I am going to make a tanky Captain with the Fist of Vengeance though.
"Brothers! We stand at the very precipice of glory! The Orks that have plagued us for so long have been beaten back to this final fortress. We have but to make one last push, and the wretched Greenskins will be eliminated from our world once and for all." "Hail Master Kantor!" "It has been an honour to serve with each and every one of you, my brothers. And we are blessed by the Emperor Himself to have been joined by our new Primaris brethren." "Hail Master Kantor!" "So ride with me, one last time, and let us finally remove the stain of defeat from the annals of the Crimson Fists!" "Hail Master Kant... whoa... wait, sorry, sir... what are you doing?" "Joining you, my brothers, in glorious combat." "Uhhh... but this is a Primaris transport." "And a glorious transport it is. All the better to make haste and end the lives of these xenos scum even sooner." "You can't come with us though." "What? Why not? I am your Chapter Master!" "Yes, but as we said, this is a Primaris transport." "I... I don't understand. Make room. I am your commander!" "I really wish we could, sir, but unfortunately you're uhh... sorry. You can go in one of the mini-Marine transports." "Mini whatnow?" "Bye sir! Try to keep up!"
I believe there is a way to give him a different WL trait using a Stratagem. I am going to make a tanky Captain with the Fist of Vengeance though.
If it's anything like the Raven Guard stratagem, "Master of the Trifold Path", then it explicitly calls out no named characters.
Yeah, I am thinking that would be the case. I think Hero of the Chapter doesn't work for this either. Oh well. Pedro is never my Warlord to begin with.
I do like that there are two Power Fist relics for Crimson Fists. I might give one to a Sergeant.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
They have some chapter specific relics (a good power fist) too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
They have some chapter specific relics (a good power fist) too.
Other Chapters are doing suicide Captains better I can guarantee that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
They have some chapter specific relics (a good power fist) too.
Other Chapters are doing suicide Captains better I can guarantee that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
Vigilus' Siegebreaker Cohort and its nice strat, if it doesn't get errata'd out of existence.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).
I suspect IFs vs crimson fists will depend on your local meta. if your local meta has a LOT of guard and Ork players, running large squads Crimson Fists are gonna be slightly better if your meta however lacks a lotta folks running large squads Imperial Fists will be better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).
I suspect IFs vs crimson fists will depend on your local meta. if your local meta has a LOT of guard and Ork players, running large squads Crimson Fists are gonna be slightly better if your meta however lacks a lotta folks running large squads Imperial Fists will be better.
Guard players aren't even running Conscripts anymore, so there's not much to be gained.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).
I suspect IFs vs crimson fists will depend on your local meta. if your local meta has a LOT of guard and Ork players, running large squads Crimson Fists are gonna be slightly better if your meta however lacks a lotta folks running large squads Imperial Fists will be better.
Guard players aren't even running Conscripts anymore, so there's not much to be gained.
keep in mind when I said "large squads" I meant more "forced to run squads of 10" because almost no one runs squads bigger.
Siegebreaker is better than anything the CF bring to the table, but if it gets nerfed/removed then I can see why people would go for CF. Pedro is an absolute weapon, their WL traits are better and they get two extra strats that are both pretty decent too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).
What better bonus? You lose 'no cover save' which doesn't even matter for half of the armies in this game, gaining instead a really good bonus to hit which almost always works for your characters, and will work pretty often for not only your 5 men primaris MSU, but also for tons of 3 men, elite, heavy shooting squads primaris have in abundance. It will also make your opponent think twice before committing to opportunistic shooting of your units with something weak to not help them by triggering the bonus. And that's without considering CF have big F-YOU psychic power to anything sitting in cover so opponent will have to think twice about that too.
Moreover, CF stratagem works against big and popular army (orks), not obscure subfaction (IW) IF get, and that's assuming your local Iron Warriors aren't now Ultramarines or Iron Hands who scraped paint off and painted some hazard stripes on. CF also have better stratagems and relics, don't waste time losing bonuses on anti-building garbage, really, I'd always pick CF first, then IF successor, then IF themselves, they are worst part of the book...
I don’t think IF are bad at all. Tor Garson is kind of great. So is the eye of Hypnoth on a chapter master - negating the need for a lieutenant and letting you take some other HQ entirely.
Successors offer some interesting options too. I think autocannon a might be better than heavy bolter spam really, and there are lots good good alternatives to exploding 6s.
I think the book is in a good place overall. The different options look quite balanced.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).
What better bonus? You lose 'no cover save' which doesn't even matter for half of the armies in this game, gaining instead a really good bonus to hit which almost always works for your characters, and will work pretty often for not only your 5 men primaris MSU, but also for tons of 3 men, elite, heavy shooting squads primaris have in abundance. It will also make your opponent think twice before committing to opportunistic shooting of your units with something weak to not help them by triggering the bonus. And that's without considering CF have big F-YOU psychic power to anything sitting in cover so opponent will have to think twice about that too.
Moreover, CF stratagem works against big and popular army (orks), not obscure subfaction (IW) IF get, and that's assuming your local Iron Warriors aren't now Ultramarines or Iron Hands who scraped paint off and painted some hazard stripes on. CF also have better stratagems and relics, don't waste time losing bonuses on anti-building garbage, really, I'd always pick CF first, then IF successor, then IF themselves, they are worst part of the book...
1. Doesn't matter for half the armies in the game? Ya know, besides the armies that need to camp in cover and all the sub factions that gain the cover bonus outside 12" (and we can eventually expect Altaioc + Stygies + Alpha to join in)? Your 3 man squads were also nerfed with the new wording to the rule, as now it only triggers when they target a squad of 8+ instead of 6+. Plus most opponents focus fire, so chances are you're not just gonna end up with a weakened squad benefitting, and at that low of numbers they aren't doing any damage anyway. Also yeah your vehicles aren't likely gonna benefit either!
Also getting a bonus vs Orks isn't impressive because Fists are supposed to be a shooting army anyway.
So yeah Crimson Fists are terrible because you have to rely on a bunch of "what if my opponent does XYZ in list building", whereas Imperial Fists straight up negate good deployment for any army besides Daemons.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.
Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).
Protip - you can't
If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...
You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).
Ah yes blood axes are dominating the ork meta
Infact orks don't care one whiff do they have cover or not. 6+/5+ isn't that big deal as 3/2, 5+ goes to 6+ pretty much always and with marines -2 is pretty much baseline so is ignored all together with or without ignore cover. And that's even if you somehow fit into terrain which orks don't.
He has pretty much a full Narthecium and big medic bag, literally the only difference with a full apothecary is the fact the saw thing is separate. He should be given pretty much the entire apothecary part kit from old marine boxes to fit 
