Looks like a big "lol screw you guys" to the AdMech's Dunerider, it's everything we wanted it to be, amped up to 11. Just the 6 man capacity would be a little light for AdMech.
I hope it's T6 because of the open-top, because we got a T6 Dunerider for this "reason".
4 posts before someone knows that we have the full rules already... wow
Anyway, its guns are very limited. Marines don't really desire transports in competitive play (lack of Primaris assault units) and the ones you want to transport (Agressors) can't go in it.
I suspect it will see little top level competitive play.
If it had +2 inv till it loses a wound, like DE stuff, then it would be OP. If it was a brutal gunboat then it would be OP. It is a normal transport, which may or may not find its way in to people armies. It for sure ain't a unit you have to have in marine army.
I think it’s probably a little underpriced for what it is. I also think they got a little crazy when adding the special rules and options, but that’s GW and Primaris these days. But not at OP levels.
The huge problem is what to put in it. Primaris infantry have good range on their guns and don’t really need to be close. We’re not talking melta/flamer squads here. Best use is to drop hellblasters off in rapid fire range.
Not OP but I'll say I've had good luck with hellblasters and a Lt with the Gulliman level rerolls against a single target. It's a good setup for killing a key unit
keep in mind you can't put gravis in it, so anyone worried about them being insaely good, "Agressor trucks" proably doesn't need to worry. With the "beta bolter rules" getting your basic bolter marines into close range ASAP isn't that important. it's primary role will be rapid re-deployment of infantry to take objectives.. and as hellblaster sucide sleds. the latter is gonna be dangerous yes, but if you can't handle a 5 man squad of hellblasters hitting you early, you need to re-examine your army.
I's a transport in an edition that hates transport.
It also seems to be unable to transport anything but primaris bolter marines and helblasters, so I'm not too sure it actually has any use unless there is a combo I'm missing.
Mr Morden wrote: I donlt have the newest Codex - is it open topped or similar allowing firing out of it?
Not open-topped, but it is an Assault Vehicle -
Assault Vehicle: After this model moves in your Movement phase, if this model did not Advance, any units embarked aboard it can disembark. Units that do so cannot be chosen to charge with that turn.
As others have said, it seems like it is really good until you realize you don't really have much (both unit type and unit size) you can transport with it.
In my army, I already drop Reivers (I just like them) in on Grav-Chutes and make use of Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors (my chapter uses Rapid Assault). I even have Infiltrators I want be on the other side of the table. I like keeping my Hellblasters at arm's length since I already have a bunch of other stuff that can get close. The only thing I would like transport are Aggerssors which can't use the Impulsor anyways. I also have a Repulsor and Repulsor Excutioner in my army if I want to try and protect some squads.
I am planning on getting one Impulsor along with a Squad of Incursors. I will try it out, I just don't see it serving much of a role in the way I built my army.
Karol wrote: If it had +2 inv till it loses a wound, like DE stuff, then it would be OP. If it was a brutal gunboat then it would be OP. It is a normal transport, which may or may not find its way in to people armies. It for sure ain't a unit you have to have in marine army.
Wait..do you think DE have shadowfields on vehicles? Because they do not have that. A shadowfield is just a thing on one HQ choice, and it is solidly worse than the Storm Shields you can put on pretty much any SMHQ because of that whole "can't reroll it and when it's gone it's gone."
Mr Morden wrote: It would actually be a better vehicle for Sisters (or Silence or battle) who do need to get quite close in
Sisters of Silence in a flying rhino? Madness.
In terms of being OP - if I could pay 8 points to give my rhino chassis the fly keyword and the various other bonuses I would every time... but rhinos are also a long, long way short of overpowered.
It's best use is actual zooming a libby into place. Or getting an intercessor squad into assault. You'd be better off deep striking interceptors over hellblasters.
Xenomancers wrote: It's best use is actual zooming a libby into place. Or getting an intercessor squad into assault. You'd be better off deep striking interceptors over hellblasters.
Driving a librarian into someone's face just to have him cast null zone might be one of the few things that might actually be worth doing.
DakkaDakka has definitely jumped the shark on this. Unless this was a troll/bait thread, I'd be seriously pointing you at genuine OP stuff than this floating pick up truck.
I'm just going to give mine a rocket launcher and use it to shunt around an intercessor squad and charge enemy units with its high movement speed and d6 explosion.
I voted no OP due to the limited units that will be useful in the Impulsor.
While I do think there is value in carrying Hellblaster WITH a support character where then need to be early and protecting them Turn 1, as mentioned Inceptors are probably better.
But I feel it's important to know some of the cons that Inceptors have that Hellblasters + Impulsor do not:
A) Inceptors have to wait until turn 2 to drop in, Hellblasters in an Impulsor can do their thing turn 1
B) Inceptors often aren't near character support and will lose more for each 1 rolled
Galef wrote: I voted no OP due to the limited units that will be useful in the Impulsor.
While I do think there is value in carrying Hellblaster WITH a support character where then need to be early and protecting them Turn 1, as mentioned Inceptors are probably better.
But I feel it's important to know some of the cons that Inceptors have that Hellblasters + Impulsor do not:
A) Inceptors have to wait until turn 2 to drop in, Hellblasters in an Impulsor can do their thing turn 1
B) Inceptors often aren't near character support and will lose more for each 1 rolled
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how about using them with IH rules? sniper bolters, re-roll one build in, with a transport with a beefy+4inv, supported by 3 units of eliminators and a sniper assasin. Could be fun to play with.
It's the internal screwiness I mind more than any OPness. I could take a Rhino for 75pts, or for another 20pts I could get the same thing but with Fly, a 4++, and the ability to carry better units? It doesn't have to take the tournament scene by storm to be a giant middle finger to the older stuff in the book.
Not OP. It just has some neat little tricks it can do.
Being able to move a squad 14+3+6+d6 inches (movement of the Impulsor + disembark range + intercessor movement range + intercessor advance) is a pretty great way to get those squads into a favorable position and pen the enemy into their half of the board, or to fly over units and cap backfield objectives quite quickly.
You could also take a couple of them for Orbital Bombardment purposes. Between them, the stratagem, and some Incursors with mines and Eliminators, you can start to load up the mortal wounds on the enemy and bring down even some really tough foes. You'd only be able to use those orbital bombardments once a turn, and when one Impulsor is done, tha'ts it, the use is finished. But hey, anything that can help you snipe out backfield camping units is nice.
The shield dome is nice for that 4++. It's a great upgrade for keeping things alive but... Is it really necessary at the end of the day? It's really just an annoyance, but it could keep your opponent from getting first strike if you're clever.
The missile launcher is the best for the offensive punch, since it can literally target whatever you want. It becomes like a weaker razorback or whirlwind at that point, but I guess it can fly. The Ironhail skytalon array is... very meh. s4 ap-1 but hey, it gets 6 shots and gets a bonus to targetting things that can fly...? Meh.
It's base loadout is just 2 storm bolters, so other than the extra weapons, it's offensive power is really wimpy. Also, keep in mind that units that disembark from it after it moves can't charge but they CAN advance, which is pretty sneaky. You could conceivably use it to get some Librarians into some good positions to get the Smites that you want.
I think the main issue is that it's transport capacity is only 6, and can't fit Gravis models. That limits it to: Reivers, Incursors, Intercessors, Infiltrators, Hellblasters, and Eliminators. Of those, only Intercessors and Hellblasters don't have a way of being deployed further up the field (Concealed positions works for most of those, and Reivers can deep strike with a cheaper upgrade).
Ok, so you can transport 5-man squads of Intercessors and Hellblasters. Of those, the Stalker Bolter and Heavy Plasma Incinerator versions aren't useful to be transported, so it's down to the rapid fire and assault versions of each of their weapons.
Hellblasters would turn the Impulsor into a juicy target, so maybe you would want the 4++ on it in that case, keeping your hellblasters alive so they can strike back if you don't get turn 1.
Otherwise, taking a 5-man squad of Intercessors with a sgt with a power fist or thunder hammer and giving them the 1cp version of Veteran Intercessors might not be a bad way to go. It'd be relatively cheap yet hit pretty hard.
The Impulsor also has the -2 to charge ranges for enemies. A combination of them + Infiltrators can make it very hard for your opponent to get first turn charges if you screen appropriately. That alone may make it good against certain armies.
Still, after all of those little uses, it's situational. Not op.
I didn't even need to read the rules or see the pts to know impulsively that it was going to be OP. /s
It has already topped a grand tournament. It isn't even out yet. Saying that it is anything other than OP does not make sense. Have fun with your balanced IH Impuslors. "It's just a friendly Impulsor list dude, why do you have to be so mad about my 84 pt Wave Serpents?"
How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array for 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age.
Sounds devastating. But you don't take it as a transport option.
Transports are tactically very useful even for Marines.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array for 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age.
Sounds devastating. But you don't take it as a transport option.
Transports are tactically very useful even for Marines.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
You should give that rule another read
Orbital Comms Array
In your Shooting phase, one model from your army with an orbital comms array that has not been used this battle can use it to call in an orbital barrage. If it does, select one point on the battlefield and roll one D6 for each unit within D6" of that point, subtracting 1 from the result if the unit being rolled for is a CHARACTER. On a 4+ the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds.
I see nothing that says that its only one OCA use per battle. Each model can use its OCA once per battle.
And besides, Orbital Bombardment isn’t exactly overwhelmingly powerful. It’s obnoxious when it goes right, but generally doesn’t do a massive amount of damage. If you wanna put 6 of them taking up points instead of CP in your list then be my guest.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
There's lots of that. E.g. you take Ion Bulwark on a Castellan or Valiant, you save yourself 18 CP for Rotate Ion Shield. It's even better because you're also still free to use Rotate Ion Shield elsewhere.
Why ? Are you saying you can only use one orbital comms array per turn ? You can use all 6 in one turn.
I am. You can’t. Re-read the very first sentence of the rule.
In your Shooting phase, one model from your army with an orbital comms array that has not been used this battle can use it to call in an orbital barrage.
Why ? Are you saying you can only use one orbital comms array per turn ? You can use all 6 in one turn.
I am. You can’t. Re-read the very first sentence of the rule.
In your Shooting phase, one model from your army with an orbital comms array that has not been used this battle can use it to call in an orbital barrage.
Do please tell me how you’re firing all 6...
Do please tell me where it says "In your shooting phase, only one model from your army....."
Why ? Are you saying you can only use one orbital comms array per turn ? You can use all 6 in one turn.
I am. You can’t. Re-read the very first sentence of the rule.
In your Shooting phase, one model from your army with an orbital comms array that has not been used this battle can use it to call in an orbital barrage.
Do please tell me how you’re firing all 6...
Do please tell me where it says "In your shooting phase, only one model from your army....."
I dont see the red marked word in the OCA rule.
You don't ned it. This is a new level of ridiculous... how many models are allowed to use this in your Shooting Phase? "One model from your army". One. "Only one" would be tautologous.
Even without "only" it precludes your interpretation that "one model from your army" means "these six tanks".
I think considering the power level of marines currently, the impulsor is a pretty powerful tank. Not OP like some of the combos that are out there but it's a very good tank for less than 100pts.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
Yes, but orbital bombardment has never been worth 3 CP. And without the shield these are pretty easy to kill. I really think the shield is the thing you want to take most of the time. It is a transport, you want it to deliver its cargo in one piece. Removing the invul for a huge 'kill this unit ASAP' marker on your transport doesn't seem like a great move to me.
p5freak wrote: Do please tell me where it says "In your shooting phase, only one model from your army....."
I dont see the red marked word in the OCA rule.
The only rule that gives you permission to use the OCA tells you to that one model from your army can use it. Not two, not three and definitiely not six.
Which is the same wording as all the non-stacking aura-effects, btw.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
Yes, but orbital bombardment has never been worth 3 CP. And without the shield these are pretty easy to kill. I really think the shield is the thing you want to take most of the time. It is a transport, you want it to deliver its cargo in one piece. Removing the invul for a huge 'kill this unit ASAP' marker on your transport doesn't seem like a great move to me.
I think a mix.
Planning to take a total of four, as noted above (I'm yet to properly work out my list, only playing around with concepts at the moment).
Shield Domes do make decent sense, for the obvious reasons. But then, I'm wondering if I might half and half with Orbital Arrays?
Dropping some splash damage Mortal Wounds early on definitely appeals, and I can potentially use the Shied Dome ones to screen the Orbital ones?
Ishagu wrote: People are talking about Hellblasters in an Impulsor.
It's cheaper and better to teleport in Inceptors.
That may be the case, however have you seen an inceptor? The most hideous Primaris model there is... Whereas Hellblasters are actually passable (was even considering getting some for my thus far entirely first-born army).
Mind you with 30" of range on their Plasma Incinerators, I wouldn't personally feel the need to shove them in an Impulsor.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I think considering the power level of marines currently, the impulsor is a pretty powerful tank. Not OP like some of the combos that are out there but it's a very good tank for less than 100pts.
Certainly is.
Sure, it's transport capacity isn't great, but the tank itself, unusually for comparatively light transports, has a fair amount of firepower.
I'm torn between keeping the cheapo Stormbolters, and upgrading to the Frag Launcher things. Storm Bolters have superior range of course, and a set number of shots. Frag Launcher things can, potentially, get more shots (and will on average) - but there's still that potential to fluff the shots roll, and end up with two.
Considering I reckon I'd use mine quite aggressively, I can easily see myself always being in rapid fire range - so probably gonna stick with Storm Bolters, so I've got a distinctly known quantity of shots to factor in each turn.
Amishprn86 wrote: I just wish my Starweaver gets cheaper or better now, at 99pts with less toughness, less wounds, it should be cheaper.
how fast is it and whats it's transport capacity?
16" base, 6 transports, 2 shuriken cannons only, T5 with 6 wounds, No options. It does have -1 to be hit, but that doesnt mean anything anymore honestly.
There is a fair bit to like about flying into battle on a pickup truck:
I would say if you want to have a more mobile game with Primaris this thing scratches the itch.
The other vehicles are a huge points-sink.
I tend to take-on the Ork hordes in my games so these keep me a good distance from the blobs of death.
It is good to see many options on how you want these to be used so it is not OP but very useful in many cases.
Amishprn86 wrote: I just wish my Starweaver gets cheaper or better now, at 99pts with less toughness, less wounds, it should be cheaper.
how fast is it and whats it's transport capacity?
16" base, 6 transports, 2 shuriken cannons only, T5 with 6 wounds, No options. It does have -1 to be hit, but that doesnt mean anything anymore honestly.
On the one hand, Starweavers arguably provided a more vital function for its faction. It's cargo is more fragile and always needs to get close. With Bolter Discipline, other Plasma options available (Inceptors) and not really being melee units, Primaris don't really NEED a transport, but Harlies kinda do.
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability, so it is odd. I do agree that Starweavers should absolutely be cheaper than an Impulsor given the relative durability and special rules it has. If Starweaver had the Assault Vehicle ability, then the costs could be the same
Amishprn86 wrote: I just wish my Starweaver gets cheaper or better now, at 99pts with less toughness, less wounds, it should be cheaper.
how fast is it and whats it's transport capacity?
16" base, 6 transports, 2 shuriken cannons only, T5 with 6 wounds, No options. It does have -1 to be hit, but that doesnt mean anything anymore honestly.
On the one hand, Starweavers arguably provided a more vital function for its faction. It's cargo is more fragile and always needs to get close. With Bolter Discipline, other Plasma options available (Inceptors) and not really being melee units, Primaris don't really NEED a transport, but Harlies kinda do.
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability, so it is odd. I do agree that Starweavers should absolutely be cheaper than an Impulsor given the relative durability and special rules it has. If Starweaver had the Assault Vehicle ability, then the costs could be the same
Its GW's problem with marines. "We don't know what to do so lets just throw a dozen special rules at every unit".
There is no reason why Space Marines should have the one vehicle in the game where you can disembark after moving.
There is no reason why Space Marines should be the only faction to have turn 1 deepstrike.
Amishprn86 wrote: I just wish my Starweaver gets cheaper or better now, at 99pts with less toughness, less wounds, it should be cheaper.
how fast is it and whats it's transport capacity?
16" base, 6 transports, 2 shuriken cannons only, T5 with 6 wounds, No options. It does have -1 to be hit, but that doesnt mean anything anymore honestly.
On the one hand, Starweavers arguably provided a more vital function for its faction. It's cargo is more fragile and always needs to get close. With Bolter Discipline, other Plasma options available (Inceptors) and not really being melee units, Primaris don't really NEED a transport, but Harlies kinda do.
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability, so it is odd. I do agree that Starweavers should absolutely be cheaper than an Impulsor given the relative durability and special rules it has. If Starweaver had the Assault Vehicle ability, then the costs could be the same
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Yes and thats the problem, Quins are already overcosted, and with a almost must transport that isn't doing its worth (I play 10 of them at times in tournaments, when 5 can be killed in 1 turn thats a problem).
Starweavers are 41% more costly than Venoms for 21% more abilities (16% more survivable b.c 4++, and str 6 base guns)
Having a SM transport that is basically the same thing minus the open top (Open top shouldnt cost more, it should lessen the survivability, not do both) for the same cost just makes me sad for my quins. Not saying Impulors are OP, its what is needed b.c of the 300% mark up in power, it just shows how other things needs to be looked at as well.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
75 + 18 points for a brick that doesn't do much later. You can see it coming. The range is D6" so its not hard to be sure that units are 4" apart if your opponent is dumb enough to spend 558 points that amounts to a single smites worth of damage per turn.
It would be a great transport if Primaris Marines had a dedicated assault unit. From the current Primaris model range, it can't transport the one unit that really needs a transport- Aggressors. It could have been great if I could transport say, five Intersessors with a powerfist or thunderhammer sergeant, and a Gravis Captain. But alas, we cannot.
When I field Hellblasters, it's a unit of 10, in cover, with a Capt, Lt, Apothecary, and Ancient in the "castle", usually on an objective. They don't move and kill anything that gets within 30". Putting five into a transport with a character just so they can get closer to the enemy to threaten or get rid of a key unit... isn't that what Inceptors are for? I mean, that's what I use mine for, and they do the job very well. I hate the static nature of "The Castle", but it's one of the most effective tactics Primaris Space Marines had vs. a lot of armies. With the release of the Executioner, Eliminators, and Suppressors, I don't use Hallblasters anymore. I find those other three units free up my army to move around, and give me more options in dealing with the enemy.
There might be a combination of a particular army, with a specific strat, on a certain unit from that army, that would make the Impulsor awesome, but I can't think of one.
If I was going to use 'em, I'd use three or four of them and try to make the rest of my army as mobile as possible to get "stuck in" ASAP, but Intersessors have fantastic range on Bolt Rifles, plus awesome strats, Careful placement of objectives during set up, and deployment means giving my opponent an objective or two, but I've been able to move an Intersessor squad onto any objectives I've needed. I know the value of having one fast unit that can get to a place on the board fast, but as noted above, 8th edition is not a transport friendly edition and unless you take the force field option on the Impulsor, it'll get popped fairly easy by any anti-tank weapon.
Solid 'meh' tank, until Primaris get a dedicated close combat unit.
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability
why do feel like these transports need that rule? you can't charge out of an impulsor and the listed transports are all open-topped. Giving the assault rule to something like the admech transport would make more sense (especially since its modeled after an actual assault vehicle)
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability
why do feel like these transports need that rule?
Because it's a new model.
you can't charge out of an impulsor and the listed transports are all open-topped. Giving the assault rule to something like the admech transport would make more sense (especially since its modeled after an actual assault vehicle)
Yeah, dismount and fire is the sort of thing you want with special/heavy weapons. Which are exactly the thing the transportable units lack. It might just be Hellblasters.
>Assault Vehicle
>You can't assault if you use the rule
>Most Primaris units have enough range to not need the rule
>Another example of a transport that's open topped but it doesn't like Passengers shoot out of it
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: >Assault Vehicle
>You can't assault if you use the rule
>Most Primaris units have enough range to not need the rule
>Another example of a transport that's open topped but it doesn't like Passengers shoot out of it
0/10. Current uses are WAY too niche.
I can think of multiple uses for the tank which are highly competitive.
I don't think the Impulsor is terribly OP, however I think the issue is that many/most other transports (Trukk, Chimera, Devilfish, Taurox/Taurox Prime, Rhino, etc) are overcosted or undercapable.
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability
why do feel like these transports need that rule? you can't charge out of an impulsor and the listed transports are all open-topped. Giving the assault rule to something like the admech transport would make more sense (especially since its modeled after an actual assault vehicle)
There is no need to charge when you use the assault vehicle rule. You can disembark within 1" of enemy models. Assault vehicle is a special rule, which has nothing to do with the general disembark rule from the core rules. It allows you to disembark after the vehicle moved, and there is no restriction that you must stay away more than 1" from enemy models.
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability
why do feel like these transports need that rule? you can't charge out of an impulsor and the listed transports are all open-topped. Giving the assault rule to something like the admech transport would make more sense (especially since its modeled after an actual assault vehicle)
There is no need to charge when you use the assault vehicle rule. You can disembark within 1" of enemy models. Assault vehicle is a special rule, which has nothing to do with the general disembark rule from the core rules. It allows you to disembark after the vehicle moved, and there is no restriction that you must stay away more than 1" from enemy models.
don't spread lies.
The assault vehicle rule alows you to disembark (an action that itself says you cannot place models within 1") after moving. Look at the skystrider Warlord trait for harelquins, it says the same thing " Your Warlord can disembark from a Transport even after it has moved."
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: >Assault Vehicle
>You can't assault if you use the rule
>Most Primaris units have enough range to not need the rule
>Another example of a transport that's open topped but it doesn't like Passengers shoot out of it
0/10. Current uses are WAY too niche.
I can think of multiple uses for the tank which are highly competitive.
You are incorrect.
You mean the Invul bubble I can get elsewhere or the Bombardment you can't spam.
But on the other hand, if any vehicle should get the Assault Vehicle rule, it really should be Starweavers, Raiders/Venoms & Ork Trukks long before Marines get a vehicle with that ability
why do feel like these transports need that rule? you can't charge out of an impulsor and the listed transports are all open-topped. Giving the assault rule to something like the admech transport would make more sense (especially since its modeled after an actual assault vehicle)
There is no need to charge when you use the assault vehicle rule. You can disembark within 1" of enemy models. Assault vehicle is a special rule, which has nothing to do with the general disembark rule from the core rules. It allows you to disembark after the vehicle moved, and there is no restriction that you must stay away more than 1" from enemy models.
Dude...you are constantly making over the top posts and it's more and more clear that you do not understand the rules...
Personally I think this vehicle is better for strong shooting than assault units. A reminder the assault rule doesn't let you assault, so what are you gonna do unload a choppy unit and let it get peppered?
For what it's worth I think I'll run 2, 1 for hellblasters and 1 for intercessors. Hellblasters get the dome and intercessors a support weapon, probably the rockets. As for stuffing hellblasters in this instead of just going with plasma inceptors. Inceptors come in turn 2, hellblasters are in rapid fire range turn 1
Ishagu wrote: You don't think that being able to remove a Knight's invul from more than 30" away is something worth considering?
slayer never said it wasnt....
>Assault Vehicle
>You can't assault if you use the rule
>Most Primaris units have enough range to not need the rule
>Another example of a transport that's open topped but it doesn't like Passengers shoot out of it
0/10. Current uses are WAY too niche.
and you can already do it with a bike librarian at 26" which will usually be good enough.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
Yes but you can only use 1 per turn, even if you have 6 of them. And your opponent only needs to spread out his castle a bit for it to become pretty weak. My Eldar tend to spread out so if you want to spend nearly 600 points to do my army D3 MWs per turn, help yourself.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: >Assault Vehicle
>You can't assault if you use the rule
>Most Primaris units have enough range to not need the rule
>Another example of a transport that's open topped but it doesn't like Passengers shoot out of it
0/10. Current uses are WAY too niche.
I can think of multiple uses for the tank which are highly competitive.
You are incorrect.
You mean the Invul bubble I can get elsewhere or the Bombardment you can't spam.
Nah.
No my unimaginative friend. I'm talking about being able to remove invuls from enemy units from 30+ inches away.
I'm talking about moving around the board quickly, or creating mobile MSU armies.
You think so basic in terms of tactics and utility.
Yeah the Jump Pack Librarian has been doing the same thing for a while, and MSU was already taken care of in terms of mobility via Strats (Ultramarines redeployment, Raven Guard and White Scars shenanigans).
Im.correct they don't fulfill a need.
p5freak wrote: How can anyone think its not OP ?? The orbital comms array is 18 pts., which is the same as orbital bombardment, which is 3 CP. If you take 6 impulsors with OCA you save yourself 18CP. And you can bombard your enemy castle back to the stone age. Its even better than orbital bombardment, because its doesnt have to be visible to your warlord. Its just one point on the battlefield, no LOS needed.
Yes but you can only use 1 per turn, even if you have 6 of them. And your opponent only needs to spread out his castle a bit for it to become pretty weak. My Eldar tend to spread out so if you want to spend nearly 600 points to do my army D3 MWs per turn, help yourself.
Let's just say all 6 could fire on turn one it's what 6-18 dead guys per unit provided enough units are within the D6 range after each hit.
That's a hell of a lot of hoops to jump through and I don't think it would be broken if possible. D6 range has the potential to just totally whiff too. It's a neat little weapon choice I'll give it that. But considering how lethal this edition is the invuln just provides way more
Ishagu wrote: That's not as good though, is it? It's not 29+D6" effect on turn 1
There's already tons of movement shenanigans that cost very little CP, and heck there's even Warlord traits too. Why would you spend 100 points on something with that little use that can go to maybe a TFC, when the CP are a good resource to use instead?
Ishagu wrote: That's not as good though, is it? It's not 29+D6" effect on turn 1
There's already tons of movement shenanigans that cost very little CP, and heck there's even Warlord traits too. Why would you spend 100 points on something with that little use that can go to maybe a TFC, when the CP are a good resource to use instead?
what If I'm building a Ultima founding chapter?
what if I just want to run a mech heavy list because those are fun and don't particularly have the points to run a half dozen repulsors?
Ishagu wrote: That's not as good though, is it? It's not 29+D6" effect on turn 1
There's already tons of movement shenanigans that cost very little CP, and heck there's even Warlord traits too. Why would you spend 100 points on something with that little use that can go to maybe a TFC, when the CP are a good resource to use instead?
what If I'm building a Ultima founding chapter?
what if I just want to run a mech heavy list because those are fun and don't particularly have the points to run a half dozen repulsors?
You going out of your way to not include Jump Pack HQs has no bearing on this conversation, sorry.
Ishagu wrote: That's not as good though, is it? It's not 29+D6" effect on turn 1
There's already tons of movement shenanigans that cost very little CP, and heck there's even Warlord traits too. Why would you spend 100 points on something with that little use that can go to maybe a TFC, when the CP are a good resource to use instead?
what If I'm building a Ultima founding chapter?
what if I just want to run a mech heavy list because those are fun and don't particularly have the points to run a half dozen repulsors?
You going out of your way to not include Jump Pack HQs has no bearing on this conversation, sorry.
no it has bearing dude, you don't get to tell people how to play their army, fact is 40k isn't about monobuilds etc. it's about giving you choice and intreasting ways to play. not everyone wants to sue the same 3 or 4 optimized units. you asked what use this could have, it's been answered.
Personally I think it is OP. It's too cheap for what it is and the ability to give it a 4+ invulnerable is just silly.
What's even sillier is that it can't carry normal marines. I get why a Rhino can't carry Primaris - they're too tall, but the opposite does not apply to the Impulsor
The whole primaris can't ride in old marine vehicles and old marines can't ride in primaris vehicles didn't make sense and still makes no sense.
Plenty of head room in a drop pod, yet primaris can't ride. What about a land raider ? Custodes can ride in them, much bigger than primaris yet primaris can't get in. Terminators can get in, still larger than primaris.
You have to do some rather large mental gymnastics to explain why they can't inter mix at least most of the transports in the old marine arsenal. I'd see regular primaris squeezing 5 in a rhino and maybe a razorback being too small for them, that's about it. No such issues with land raiders and absolutely zero reason why old marines can't get into primaris transports.
AngryAngel80 781393 10601094 wrote:
Plenty of head room in a drop pod, yet primaris can't ride. What about a land raider ? Custodes can ride in them, much bigger than primaris yet primaris can't get in. Terminators can get in, still larger than primaris.
.
well of course, a holy machine spirit driven artefact of a better age can not accept inside such a heretical abomination as the primaris.It makes perfect sense that it doesn't let them inside.
Yeah, a table top money grabbing reason. It has no sense reason aside from forcing you to buy overly expensive primaris transports if you want to move primaris. I mean, they could let old marines in but gotta incentive those new primaris models.
I get this is the sweet and cuddly new GW I'm talking about but aside from just assuming they have some grandiose grand plan, I don't think its any deeper than the dollar bills ya'll. I mean, if they could take rhinos for some primaris squads, I'd be taking them for sure.
Ishagu wrote: Actually they'd make more money if it was the other way.
There are Primaris only players who aren't buying the old vehicles because they aren't compatible, and visa versa.
I really don't think we are doing the same math. They want to sell new stuff to current players. Sure, they could miss out on new players buying into old transports. However, how many cheap rhinos could you find ? Tons, same for land raiders I don't think the new influx of primaris only players really out number all the old timers who have maybe dozens of these marine transports already, or the cheap and numerous availability of these old transports after decades in circulation. I had a longer response typed out but honestly, if you don't see it, I'll just have to content myself in my conspiracy theory, with many others I'm sure.
You cannot prove that limiting transports to certain units leads to more sales.
It has prevented me, personally, from buying a Spartan and a Land Raider Excelsior because it can't be used with Primaris.
There are multiple people who are not buying Primaris Repulsors because they can't transport their existing collections.
This is anecdotal, but you cannot say anything categorically. It's much more likely that GW will eventually separate the two ranges so this point becomes moot.
Ishagu wrote: You cannot prove that limiting transports to certain units leads to more sales.
It has prevented me, personally, from buying a Spartan and a Land Raider Excelsior because it can't be used with Primaris.
There are multiple people who are not buying Primaris Repulsors because they can't transport their existing collections.
This is anecdotal, but you cannot say anything categorically. It's much more likely that GW will eventually separate the two ranges so this point becomes moot.
you can't prove it but GW has made some odd decisions in the past, I can see them thinking that.
What we are tapdancing around the topic is that the troop transport is useful for many things but is not really "ideal".
It would be GREAT for delivering melee troops but it's rules preclude that and other units just deep-strike in.
The vehicle looks like a shoe-in as an open-top shooting platform but is not.
It is very good to get units to a location quickly but most SM units have a fair bit of reach and again the ones with serious short range dakka cannot ride in the thing.
Yes, the vehicle will help a great deal with the Primaris issue of their characters being less mobile (no jump-pack or bike).
It is a vast improvement for those fielding only Primaris like I am for my Ultramarines but my "Squat-marine" Black Templar have what appears to be much better equipment: Attack-bikes for some nice mobile dakka, Rhinos for transport and to shove in the face of hordes, then there is the "smash-captain" who does not need some futuristic pickup-truck to get where he needs to go (and then wait since he cannot jump out and melee).
It looks pretty strong to me, i think people are underestimating it a lot.
Fast flying Transport that can drop units on the fly, with invulnerable save, -2 to charge and the abillity to hit the backline with mortal wounds.
For 107 pts you can give him some anti infantry shooting with the stubber and frag grenade launcher.
It gives alot of utility and there will be very little games you wont get value from it.
I will rate it very very good, maybe OP only IH.
Marin wrote: It looks pretty strong to me, i think people are underestimating it a lot.
Fast flying Transport that can drop units on the fly, with invulnerable save, -2 to charge and the abillity to hit the backline with mortal wounds.
For 107 pts you can give him some anti infantry shooting with the stubber and frag grenade launcher.
It gives alot of utility and there will be very little games you wont get value from it.
I will rate it very very good, maybe OP only IH.
I was looking at it as a way to round-out the shooting since it would carry only 6 models.
The SM rules makes the two storm bolters pretty nasty at 12" (8 shots are good to see), I do not think the frag launchers can measure-up to that.
Some cheap stubbers help to add to the dakka.
A vehicle that is not readily assaulted (unless the unit can fly) has it's uses as a blocker.
There are other units competing for the same points cost the Invictor is at ~126pts, so an Impulsor with as close to a similar loadout is ~85pts which looks promising, a Redemptor dreadnaught base cost is 140 pts.
Marin wrote: It looks pretty strong to me, i think people are underestimating it a lot.
Fast flying Transport that can drop units on the fly, with invulnerable save, -2 to charge and the abillity to hit the backline with mortal wounds.
For 107 pts you can give him some anti infantry shooting with the stubber and frag grenade launcher.
It gives alot of utility and there will be very little games you wont get value from it.
I will rate it very very good, maybe OP only IH.
I was looking at it as a way to round-out the shooting since it would carry only 6 models.
The SM rules makes the two storm bolters pretty nasty at 12" (8 shots are good to see), I do not think the frag launchers can measure-up to that.
Some cheap stubbers help to add to the dakka.
A vehicle that is not readily assaulted (unless the unit can fly) has it's uses as a blocker.
There are other units competing for the same points cost the Invictor is at ~126pts, so an Impulsor with as close to a similar loadout is ~85pts which looks promising, a Redemptor dreadnaught base cost is 140 pts.
Imagine tha you are playing vs other space marines for instance reaven guard or the opponent have alot of LOS shooting and you need to hide your own Exterminators or some hero you are scared of losing. You put them in this thing and in your turn you can move it in the needed location and drop your key unit/units without losing turns. Dropping slow moving HQs on the right spots where your units will benefit on the auras alot more.
You can use it to block assault armies path and it cant get wrapped, so the opponent will need to remove it.
In non CA formats it can help you get +1 to initiative roll.
In ITC you have cheap engineer unit that is -2 to charge and tough enough to not be removed by LOS fire.
You can find alot of use for this thing.
In CA format you have a way to drop cheap infantry squad on objective and score some cards on the fly, in the some turn you drawn the card.
I keep seeing people say that there's no reason to get close with primaris units. What about veteran intercessors. The sgt gets 5 thunder hammer attacks.
cmspano wrote: I keep seeing people say that there's no reason to get close with primaris units. What about veteran intercessors. The sgt gets 5 thunder hammer attacks.
Because we are in our own imaginary world, where our units always have LOS, are in range, none is threatening to remove them from the table and assault don't exist .
Ishagu wrote: Actually they'd make more money if it was the other way.
There are Primaris only players who aren't buying the old vehicles because they aren't compatible, and visa versa.
I really don't think we are doing the same math. They want to sell new stuff to current players. Sure, they could miss out on new players buying into old transports. However, how many cheap rhinos could you find ? Tons, same for land raiders I don't think the new influx of primaris only players really out number all the old timers who have maybe dozens of these marine transports already, or the cheap and numerous availability of these old transports after decades in circulation. I had a longer response typed out but honestly, if you don't see it, I'll just have to content myself in my conspiracy theory, with many others I'm sure.
I'm with Ishagu on this. With the Matched Play restriction on Drop Pods removed, GW would sell TONS of Drop Pods if they could hold even just 5 PRIMARIS models. They only reason for this not being a thing is because GW wants us to buy their over priced Impulsor instead
cmspano wrote: I keep seeing people say that there's no reason to get close with primaris units. What about veteran intercessors. The sgt gets 5 thunder hammer attacks.
Because we are in our own imaginary world, where our units always have LOS, are in range, none is threatening to remove them from the table and assault don't exist .
Not to mention the strat for auto rifle intercessors to auto hit within 12". Not a bad one if you need some extra oomph to clear a screen for some charging units. Or to open up a character to being shot by something else.
Galef wrote: I'm with Ishagu on this. With the Matched Play restriction on Drop Pods removed, GW would sell TONS of Drop Pods if they could hold even just 5 PRIMARIS models.
They only reason for this not being a thing is because GW wants us to buy their over priced Impulsor instead
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who knows, a dude at my store is so crazy with all the nerfs in changes to marines this edition that he claims, GW made 8th unfun to play with regular marines, just to soft squat them over time. If people stop playing with units or even armies, removing them from the game would, according to him, is easier to do, when no one plays the armies or units. But then again he also think that GW hates dwarf players, because the people at the store not being able to grown proper beards.
Galef wrote: I'm with Ishagu on this. With the Matched Play restriction on Drop Pods removed, GW would sell TONS of Drop Pods if they could hold even just 5 PRIMARIS models.
They only reason for this not being a thing is because GW wants us to buy their over priced Impulsor instead
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who knows, a dude at my store is so crazy with all the nerfs in changes to marines this edition that he claims, GW made 8th unfun to play with regular marines, just to soft squat them over time. If people stop playing with units or even armies, removing them from the game would, according to him, is easier to do, when no one plays the armies or units. But then again he also think that GW hates dwarf players, because the people at the store not being able to grown proper beards.
So drop pods - the only thing with turn 1 deepstrike - and only for old marines...is a nerf. And there is absolutely nothing good to put in them?
You know what would really soft-squat old marines? Allowing Primaris into drop pods.
As I said, he is crazy, he bought a BA army with money he got for working all summer in germany, only for GW to nerf it like a week or so after he bought it. Now am not the most sane of people, so you can imagine what it means if I call him crazy. He is the son of the shop owners friend, so they don't kick him out. If I did stuff like he did, I would have a black pass instantly.
I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"
The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.
It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.
Galef wrote: I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"
The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.
It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.
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Marines have a lot of good kits. Many of them recent.
This is a list of NEW bones for ONLY old marines:
Point cut to Tacs, Dread, Hunter, base Land Raider, WW, Stormtalon, Land Speeders, Grav guns, Grav cannons, MM, Dread CCWs Drop pods deepstrike
Double tap TFC & WW Grav cannon wound and damage
5+ mortal wound from each JP model
+1 to hit / +1 to wound for Hunters/Stalkers
+1 to hit for terminators
3++/4++ for bikes and speeders
scout bike mines
And the NEW bones for ONLY Primaris
rocket pods to D2
+1W to grav
3 shots to auto bolt
D2 to stalker bolt
unmod 6s to hit auto wound in fight phase
target characters with intercessors
double double tap bolt rifles
repulsor D3 MW missile
autohit with auto bolt rifles
That's just the Astartes book and all I care to look at right now. I'm sure I've missed a bunch. There's plenty to be had for old marines and people are nuts if they think primaris outshine them in every way.
Galef wrote: I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"
The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.
It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.
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Marines have a lot of good kits. Many of them recent.
This is a list of NEW bones for ONLY old marines:
Point cut to Tacs, Dread, Hunter, base Land Raider, WW, Stormtalon, Land Speeders, Grav guns, Grav cannons, MM, Dread CCWs Drop pods deepstrike Double tap TFC & WW Grav cannon wound and damage 5+ mortal wound from each JP model +1 to hit / +1 to wound for Hunters/Stalkers +1 to hit for terminators 3++/4++ for bikes and speeders scout bike mines
And the NEW bones for ONLY Primaris
rocket pods to D2 +1W to grav 3 shots to auto bolt D2 to stalker bolt unmod 6s to hit auto wound in fight phase target characters with intercessors double double tap bolt rifles repulsor D3 MW missile autohit with auto bolt rifles
That's just the Astartes book and all I care to look at right now. I'm sure I've missed a bunch. There's plenty to be had for old marines and people are nuts if they think primaris outshine them in every way.
….And? I don't understand your point. Yes GW is continuing to support oldmarines with rules. That's good and appreciated. I hope and expect them to continue to do so for a while Are you saying that is evidence that oldmarines are going to continue to be supported so long as GW exists?
My point is that due to the lack of MODEL support for old marines, it is only a matter of time before those "good kits" start to show their age. if GW doesn't continue this crazy balancing act between good rules for Oldmarines and good rules for Primaris, it just seems inevitable that within the next few YEARS the sales of certain Oldmarine kits will start getting phased out. It will not be an overnight process, but it doesn't seem sustainable to continue supporting both lines forever.
And GW seems to be moving the story along recently. It's only logical for the story to progress in a fashion that OldMarines start showing up less and less in the plot as mostly Primaris are being created and many Oldmarines are getting upgraded
I don't know about overpowered, but I think it looks reasonable if you want to go down an armour skew, probably Iron Hands type list.
You probably take one with the orbital bombardment. Is it guaranteed damage? No, but it certainly has potential. Yes in theory everyone just doesn't stand next to each other - but I play on various tables where there are only so many LOS blocking terrain peices. So its often tempting to hide your critical stuff behind it first turn in case you go second and it promptly gets shot to peices. Sure there will be that time you roll a 1 for the radius - but sometimes you will get 6". You don't need to inflict many mortal wounds to make it worthwhile.
The assault vehicle rule isn't great for assaulting things - but it is useful for throwing units forward, and getting board control. Now you may not want to do this against certain armies but its still a potential advantage for claiming objectives and generally strangling an opponent.
I mean the IH variant with 11 wounds, T7, 3+,4++,6+++? 14" movement on the top line. Stormbolters and a stubber? Its probably not enough dakka for that points cost - but its not going to be inconsequential to shift. Potentially save some points and get more damage with the ironhail skytalon array but it would need some testing. I feel a 4++ is good. Potentially you eat up a lot of fire from an opponent chasing first strike.
In conclusion - I'm not convinced its great "as a transport" - but almost no transports are. IMO at least a Wave Serpent isn't good (while considerably more expensive) because its a great way of shifting bodies around. Its good because while serpent shield and Alaitoc is up its very annoying to kill, and is fast with flying so you can get where you want and throw out that 2+ smite into a critical target. Then you charge something to stop it shooting. I don't think anyone goes "3 shuriken cannons (or 2 and catapults)? nerf!"
Galef wrote: ….And? I don't understand your point. Yes GW is continuing to support oldmarines with rules. That's good and appreciated. I hope and expect them to continue to do so for a while
Are you saying that is evidence that oldmarines are going to continue to be supported so long as GW exists?
My point is that due to the lack of MODEL support for old marines, it is only a matter of time before those "good kits" start to show their age.
if GW doesn't continue this crazy balancing act between good rules for Oldmarines and good rules for Primaris, it just seems inevitable that within the next few YEARS the sales of certain Oldmarine kits will start getting phased out.
It will not be an overnight process, but it doesn't seem sustainable to continue supporting both lines forever.
And GW seems to be moving the story along recently. It's only logical for the story to progress in a fashion that OldMarines start showing up less and less in the plot as mostly Primaris are being created and many Oldmarines are getting upgraded
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What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
Galef wrote: ….And? I don't understand your point. Yes GW is continuing to support oldmarines with rules. That's good and appreciated. I hope and expect them to continue to do so for a while
Are you saying that is evidence that oldmarines are going to continue to be supported so long as GW exists?
My point is that due to the lack of MODEL support for old marines, it is only a matter of time before those "good kits" start to show their age.
if GW doesn't continue this crazy balancing act between good rules for Oldmarines and good rules for Primaris, it just seems inevitable that within the next few YEARS the sales of certain Oldmarine kits will start getting phased out.
It will not be an overnight process, but it doesn't seem sustainable to continue supporting both lines forever.
And GW seems to be moving the story along recently. It's only logical for the story to progress in a fashion that OldMarines start showing up less and less in the plot as mostly Primaris are being created and many Oldmarines are getting upgraded
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What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
If they where to continue to support old marines long term then updated scouts would be nice. Would be nice, if a bit niche, to have a Crusader Squad kit that could also double for bolt pistol + chainsword scouts and jump packless assault marines (for non BT players). The best answer though would be a plastic thunderhawk
You probably take one with the orbital bombardment. Is it guaranteed damage? No, but it certainly has potential. Yes in theory everyone just doesn't stand next to each other - but I play on various tables where there are only so many LOS blocking terrain peices. So its often tempting to hide your critical stuff behind it first turn in case you go second and it promptly gets shot to peices. Sure there will be that time you roll a 1 for the radius - but sometimes you will get 6". You don't need to inflict many mortal wounds to make it worthwhile.
I the issue I see with this is I can just as easily take a squad of Infiltrators with the comms array marine if I want that and I fill a Troop slot in the process. This might me a little more expensive, but I think I will get more mileage from the Infiltrators than the Impulsor.
As for hiding behind it, being a grav vehicle makes it hard to fully hide something on occasion.
As for using it to protect eliminators, I like using the Repulsor Executioner for that since neither unit is intended to leave the back line and it might be nice to have the Las Fusils on hand to mop up what the Executioner couldn't. That's on top of the idea that if my opponent is shooting at my Eliminators early game they either made bad mistake or I did.
Again, I am not 100% sure how I am going to make use of it as I kinda had plans in place without it and can't see where spending points on it gets me further along most of the time. Once I start fielding it, I might have a better impression. Though, only planning on having 1 may also be an issue.
Mechanised shooting infantry in vehicles is the coolest way of playing the game (Breachers in devilfish FTW) so the Impulsor as cinical as it is for being such special snowflake with those rules other vehicles should have, is pretty nice to have going forward.
Galef wrote: ….And? I don't understand your point. Yes GW is continuing to support oldmarines with rules. That's good and appreciated. I hope and expect them to continue to do so for a while
Are you saying that is evidence that oldmarines are going to continue to be supported so long as GW exists?
My point is that due to the lack of MODEL support for old marines, it is only a matter of time before those "good kits" start to show their age.
if GW doesn't continue this crazy balancing act between good rules for Oldmarines and good rules for Primaris, it just seems inevitable that within the next few YEARS the sales of certain Oldmarine kits will start getting phased out.
It will not be an overnight process, but it doesn't seem sustainable to continue supporting both lines forever.
And GW seems to be moving the story along recently. It's only logical for the story to progress in a fashion that OldMarines start showing up less and less in the plot as mostly Primaris are being created and many Oldmarines are getting upgraded
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What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
It's probably one of the best transports in the game, it's just that any primaris unit that wants to be up close already has the option to. This is absolutely subject to change as GW adds new models to the line
Galef wrote: I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"
The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.
It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.
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I don't see a reason why they wouldn't just keep producing (and thus supporting) the plastic kits until the molds break.
Ishagu wrote: Actually they'd make more money if it was the other way.
There are Primaris only players who aren't buying the old vehicles because they aren't compatible, and visa versa.
I really don't think we are doing the same math. They want to sell new stuff to current players. Sure, they could miss out on new players buying into old transports. However, how many cheap rhinos could you find ? Tons, same for land raiders I don't think the new influx of primaris only players really out number all the old timers who have maybe dozens of these marine transports already, or the cheap and numerous availability of these old transports after decades in circulation. I had a longer response typed out but honestly, if you don't see it, I'll just have to content myself in my conspiracy theory, with many others I'm sure.
I'm with Ishagu on this. With the Matched Play restriction on Drop Pods removed, GW would sell TONS of Drop Pods if they could hold even just 5 PRIMARIS models.
They only reason for this not being a thing is because GW wants us to buy their over priced Impulsor instead
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Yeah, you're actually in agreement with me, thats my point. They disallow the old transports to push sales of the new units. He's saying, they'd make more money the other way. my point is there are tons of drop pods already in the wild you either already own or could get cheap. They purely are pushing this you can't use the others transports to force buying new kits and not ones you can find everywhere used or the cheap. I think they are keenly aware of the discount and second hand market.
We obviously can't confirm or deny that GW restricted the transports for sales we can only speculate. It could be for sales just as equally as it could be for balancing purposes.
I've said this before, GW is pretty inept when it comes to introducing new units. I can equally make the argument that it's a balance issue because they dont know how old units interact with the new units.
There's a pretty recent example of GW not being that great at rule writing
GW doesn’t write its rules for balance, it writes them for effect and atmosphere.
It’s deliberate, and not an oversight, as it has been pointed out to them on numerous occasions. It’s extremely egregious for the Impulsor, as it is open-topped and makes no sense that oldMarines couldn’t be placed in the open hold.
Luckily, it’s something for my own games I can completely ignore. I’d love to pick up a pair of these models, but GW has simply priced me out of purchasing them.
What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.
fraser1191 wrote: We obviously can't confirm or deny that GW restricted the transports for sales we can only speculate. It could be for sales just as equally as it could be for balancing purposes.
I've said this before, GW is pretty inept when it comes to introducing new units. I can equally make the argument that it's a balance issue because they dont know how old units interact with the new units.
There's a pretty recent example of GW not being that great at rule writing
It is total ineptitude. When the Tyranids codex was released over a year ago. Literally 50% of the models were out of stock online for the first month or 2 after it's release. Plus leading up to the codex. Yes - they have some supply issues to do with power at their main modeling center BUT a smart company finds ways around these problems and doesn't just say..."oh sorry...you can't buy the things you want to buy right now." In the end - if they were gonna sell 100,000 impuslors in the first week of it's release a month ago they will probably still sell about the same amount in 2 weeks from now...It's just absolutely nutts they make us wait when these models have been ready to go since the beginning.
What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.
Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.
I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.
GW could do to old Marines what they did with IG. Bring over some of the vehicles they already have on Forgeworld to the main codex and release plastic kits.
Ishagu wrote: No, that's not right. More people will buy the new AND old units of there was no limitation.
Can you not understand that GW plans releases and books years in advance? They are likely planning on seperating the ranges in future.
That is in fact right, as just speaking for myself I have 5 drop pods, and many many rhinos and a few land raiders. If the primaris could take any of them, they would. If hellblasters could somehow find the room to sit in a pod, they would. You'd have little incentive to pick up impulsors aside from like of the model, same goes for Reupulsor aside from if you want the extra firepower. You can find all those old kits cheaply or have a ton if you've played for awhile.
Can you not understand that yes they make the releases in advance but maybe they made decisions based on pushing you to buy new over old kits ? You seem to be in this strange thought process that this business that doesn't give a fig about any of us is letting anything but sales drive this decision.
Yet again just speaking for myself, I wouldn't have purchased even 1 repulsor if I could have had a land raider carry primaris marines, or even my corvus which can carry bikes, jump packs and terminators could somehow find the room for some primaris to squeeze on in. It's, like most of their decisions, one made with the bottom line in mind not customer good will. They don't have any grand design of balance in mind and if you think that somehow you've missed all their talk of how they don't care about balance or design paradigms.
Just like I can't prove this is their goal, aside from corporate greed which is easy enough to discern. You can't prove they ever plan to split the marine range at least not more than any can prove they'll squat old marines. As they are amazingly vague on those intentions. All you have is knowing the nature of the beast.
What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.
Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.
I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.
Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.
People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.
What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.
Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.
I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.
Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.
People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.
And remember people come into this hobby all the time, you might not buy scouts but others will. partiuclarly now that they've confirmed scouts are used by primaris armies. If I wanted to say.. make a 10th company theme'd army I'd end up with scouts. And this isn't just some weird idea, it's an idea GW has actually SUGGESTED on WarCom today
What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.
Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.
I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.
Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.
People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.
And remember people come into this hobby all the time, you might not buy scouts but others will. partiuclarly now that they've confirmed scouts are used by primaris armies. If I wanted to say.. make a 10th company theme'd army I'd end up with scouts. And this isn't just some weird idea, it's an idea GW has actually SUGGESTED on WarCom today
Well I would say re touching the scout plastic kit would be an excellent idea as they are used in the primaris process and old marine process. Seems like a logical step as while the current plastic scouts aren't awful they could really do with a new kits and look at in regard to maybe a better combi kit with some new options just because choices.
What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?
Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.
Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.
I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.
Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.
People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.
And remember people come into this hobby all the time, you might not buy scouts but others will. partiuclarly now that they've confirmed scouts are used by primaris armies. If I wanted to say.. make a 10th company theme'd army I'd end up with scouts. And this isn't just some weird idea, it's an idea GW has actually SUGGESTED on WarCom today
Well I would say re touching the scout plastic kit would be an excellent idea as they are used in the primaris process and old marine process. Seems like a logical step as while the current plastic scouts aren't awful they could really do with a new kits and look at in regard to maybe a better combi kit with some new options just because choices.
I agree, but it's not entirely nesscary, Marines get plenty of releases even without retouching old kits.
Ishagu wrote: That's not as good though, is it? It's not 29+D6" effect on turn 1
There's already tons of movement shenanigans that cost very little CP, and heck there's even Warlord traits too. Why would you spend 100 points on something with that little use that can go to maybe a TFC, when the CP are a good resource to use instead?
what If I'm building a Ultima founding chapter?
what if I just want to run a mech heavy list because those are fun and don't particularly have the points to run a half dozen repulsors?
You going out of your way to not include Jump Pack HQs has no bearing on this conversation, sorry.
no it has bearing dude, you don't get to tell people how to play their army, fact is 40k isn't about monobuilds etc. it's about giving you choice and intreasting ways to play. not everyone wants to sue the same 3 or 4 optimized units. you asked what use this could have, it's been answered.
And you not choosing to use the better Librarian is none of my concern. It's a bad justification for the vehicle, period, and to use "what if I don't wanna" is just beyond silly.
Galef wrote: I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"
The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.
It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.
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Marines have a lot of good kits. Many of them recent.
This is a list of NEW bones for ONLY old marines:
Point cut to Tacs, Dread, Hunter, base Land Raider, WW, Stormtalon, Land Speeders, Grav guns, Grav cannons, MM, Dread CCWs Drop pods deepstrike
Double tap TFC & WW Grav cannon wound and damage
5+ mortal wound from each JP model
+1 to hit / +1 to wound for Hunters/Stalkers
+1 to hit for terminators
3++/4++ for bikes and speeders
scout bike mines
And the NEW bones for ONLY Primaris
rocket pods to D2
+1W to grav
3 shots to auto bolt
D2 to stalker bolt
unmod 6s to hit auto wound in fight phase
target characters with intercessors
double double tap bolt rifles
repulsor D3 MW missile
autohit with auto bolt rifles
That's just the Astartes book and all I care to look at right now. I'm sure I've missed a bunch. There's plenty to be had for old marines and people are nuts if they think primaris outshine them in every way.
Think about which old style Power Armor units those buffs apply to though.
Marin wrote: It looks pretty strong to me, i think people are underestimating it a lot.
Fast flying Transport that can drop units on the fly, with invulnerable save, -2 to charge and the abillity to hit the backline with mortal wounds.
For 107 pts you can give him some anti infantry shooting with the stubber and frag grenade launcher.
It gives alot of utility and there will be very little games you wont get value from it.
I will rate it very very good, maybe OP only IH.
this seems to be reasonable.
the orbital bombardment should be nasty.
just so flexible...
a good purchase, the rhino for the 42nd mil.
i will be buying exactly zero, however.
flying marine tanks with AA and killa force fields?
It's 79 points base, and none of the upgrades make it 95?
