Has anyone been in a local game where there was a no marine army rule? If so how did it go?

Wouldn't that just be an Eldar curbstomp

You might get the odd region where there isn't a marine player in the local club or they don't come to the event; but I don't think I've ever heard of a club banning a whole faction.

I know some might restrict forgeworld armies; or white dwarf armies and such; but a core army like marines never. The closest might be rules that limit some alliance options (eg no allied detachments etc...).

Asides marines are super popular in general and most groups will have multiple marine players so its not just excluding an army its excluding players.

That’s the point isn’t it? There’s a very large factor in the meta, and wouldn’t it be interesting if the meta were a bit different, and if you saw some novel situations?

I would rather encourage other armies than ban marines. Asides whilst it might have some influence on the meta it wouldn't likely be seen in one event; you'd need a string of them to establish a new meta.

Also most of the "meta" is just the same rough core concepts being played out so you might not see anything massively different by just removing one army block from the game.

Banning an entire faction from a tourny is stupid period. Banning one of the most popular armies that makes up a considerable portion of your player base is BEYOND stupid. seriously this has to be the dumbest idea I've ever heard of. Besides what is it you'd hope to achomplish with this? I won't make armies more varied. it won't improve the game at all (marine lists being broken is hardly a common theme in 40k.) as far as I can tell the only person who'd benifit is your local store which would end up selling more hoard armies

It is a terrible idea, block a large chunk of the player base, alienate a lot of players at the same time. I have many other armies that I could run but any tournament that would outright ban a faction regardless of the faction that was banned I would not go to that tournament.

I wouldn't have a problem with banning Marines for a single tournament, just to see what it was like. Nor would I have problem if any other army was banned, just to produce a different environment from the norm.

Probably the best way to do it would be to have a tournament themed around a campaign. You could do Eldar and Imperial Guard against Tyranids and Genestealers, for example, and organize the players into two teams. Then the players would fight out the campaign over the course of the tournament.

Pretty much every tournament for historical (ancient and medieval) games that I go to restricts armies in this fashion. Sometimes it's only armies with chariots, or only Rome and her enemies, or only armies from 1000 to 1500 AD. Usually the themes are pretty broad to allow more people to play, but they don't shy away from being extremely specific.

A thematic narrative style tourny is a bit of a differant beast. such as "War for Battletoria!" a narrative event about the guard fighting an Orc invasion that specificly demands Orks vs Guard there is a huuge differance between that and just a "yeah go away we don't like X" tourny. To be honest this entire thread is indicative of a pretty unhealthy additude among a contingent of the 40k community

 Sobekta wrote:
Has anyone been in a local game where there was a no marine army rule? If so how did it go?

I've played countless games over the years with no Marines involved. 1v1s, assorted teams, multi-player, free for alls....
They played just fine (or at least as fine as any given edition of 40k can).
Result: one player/team won each time.
Result: Everyone had fun.

As for a tourney banning Marines? No, I've never been to one with that restriction. Or even heard of it beyond jest.
I predict it'd play out as I described above - except there'd be a lot of bitching & moaning from those who's primary force is Marines....

I've played in no marines meta before. One of the best times I can remember. That said I bans on marine players would be bad unless they're on board.

Point on the board where the nasty marine army gave you a booty blasting.

Seriously, its getting tiresome with all this marine bashing. OK, we get it, marines are strong now but Christ on a bike will people just carry on? IH have been nerfed, and can we stop with the daily how to curb marine power / IH are OP! /and assorted anti marine stuff.

It's to a point now all this griping has surpassed the genuine problem (which was the IH meta changing strength) and is now a very thinly veiled attempt to get space marines back to pre 2019 Codex strength, that relied on a couple of gimmick lists.

An excellent idea for a one off event!

You could even graft some narrative to the event; all the forces involved have broadcast their pleas for assistance. Everyone is waiting for their marine allies to show up. The marine reinforcements show up first for whoever wins the event, ending the conflict in the sector for good. That winning player gets to take home a marine army box for their prize!

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Point on the board where the nasty marine army gave you a booty blasting.

Seriously, its getting tiresome with all this marine bashing. OK, we get it, marines are strong now but Christ on a bike will people just carry on? IH have been nerfed, and can we stop with the daily how to curb marine power / IH are OP! /and assorted anti marine stuff.

It's to a point now all this griping has surpassed the genuine problem (which was the IH meta changing strength) and is now a very thinly veiled attempt to get space marines back to pre 2019 Codex strength, that relied on a couple of gimmick lists.

no kidding, we get it, some people don't like Marines. but they're kinda a big part of 40k. I knbow it's popular to be edgy and complain about a setting focusing on the posterboys, be it Jedi in Star Wars or Marines in 40k, but it doens't impress anyone, it doesn't make you look like a "True fan" etc

Seems like an odd idea. Now Ogryn only tournaments, those sound like real tests of skill.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Seems like an odd idea. Now Ogryn only tournaments, those sound like real tests of skill.

R&h wins
Period. Have you seen how many Berzerkers you can put in a squad

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Point on the board where the nasty marine army gave you a booty blasting.

Seriously, its getting tiresome with all this marine bashing. OK, we get it, marines are strong now but Christ on a bike will people just carry on? IH have been nerfed, and can we stop with the daily how to curb marine power / IH are OP! /and assorted anti marine stuff.

It's to a point now all this griping has surpassed the genuine problem (which was the IH meta changing strength) and is now a very thinly veiled attempt to get space marines back to pre 2019 Codex strength, that relied on a couple of gimmick lists.

no kidding, we get it, some people don't like Marines. but they're kinda a big part of 40k. I knbow it's popular to be edgy and complain about a setting focusing on the posterboys, be it Jedi in Star Wars or Marines in 40k, but it doens't impress anyone, it doesn't make you look like a "True fan" etc

Perhaps people have genuine reason for disliking the posterboys?

 Bobthehero wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Point on the board where the nasty marine army gave you a booty blasting.

Seriously, its getting tiresome with all this marine bashing. OK, we get it, marines are strong now but Christ on a bike will people just carry on? IH have been nerfed, and can we stop with the daily how to curb marine power / IH are OP! /and assorted anti marine stuff.

It's to a point now all this griping has surpassed the genuine problem (which was the IH meta changing strength) and is now a very thinly veiled attempt to get space marines back to pre 2019 Codex strength, that relied on a couple of gimmick lists.

no kidding, we get it, some people don't like Marines. but they're kinda a big part of 40k. I knbow it's popular to be edgy and complain about a setting focusing on the posterboys, be it Jedi in Star Wars or Marines in 40k, but it doens't impress anyone, it doesn't make you look like a "True fan" etc

Perhaps people have genuine reason for disliking the posterboys?

I'd rather see people celebrate what they like instead of whine about what they dislike. but that's just me.

Got an even more interesting idea! Why not ban the shooting phase for a tournament? That is sure to shake up the meta!
.
.
.
.
.
.
No, i'm not being serious in case you need it spelled out.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
Point on the board where the nasty marine army gave you a booty blasting.

Seriously, its getting tiresome with all this marine bashing. OK, we get it, marines are strong now but Christ on a bike will people just carry on? IH have been nerfed, and can we stop with the daily how to curb marine power / IH are OP! /and assorted anti marine stuff.

It's to a point now all this griping has surpassed the genuine problem (which was the IH meta changing strength) and is now a very thinly veiled attempt to get space marines back to pre 2019 Codex strength, that relied on a couple of gimmick lists.

no kidding, we get it, some people don't like Marines. but they're kinda a big part of 40k. I knbow it's popular to be edgy and complain about a setting focusing on the posterboys, be it Jedi in Star Wars or Marines in 40k, but it doens't impress anyone, it doesn't make you look like a "True fan" etc

Its nothing to do with hating a faction and everything to do with people getting sick of GW. Its almost as if GW focusing on one faction to the detriment of all others is alienating, or something. Who'd have thunk it?

You Marine fanboys are terrible too, the amount of strawmanning done in an attempt to play the victim is enough to start a farm. That doesn't help things.

You might not get it if you play them, but playing against Marines right now with any other faction is simply not a balanced game. I can see why people wouldn't want to participate in a tournament with them. It's like the index vs codex days.

Why not ban tournaments? they bring out the worst in most people.

BrianDavion wrote:
To be honest this entire thread is indicative of a pretty unhealthy additude among a contingent of the 40k community

IMO, the indignant "how very dare you!" responses to the OP (and to some other recent threads like Englishman's marine fatigue one) say far more about the unhealthy entitlement complex of some marine players. And I say that as a (primarily) marine player myself.

There's nothing wrong with people deciding to limit which armies/factions are welcome at a particular event. I do think it would be dumb for a large (i.e. regional/national) tournament to ban a faction as popular as marines, but has anybody actually suggested that? If a store wants to run a non-marine event/tournament because they think it will be an interesting change (because maybe they're tired of the top three spots going to the same faction over and over; or because they want to encourage people to start xenos armies to create some more variety in future in-store games; or even just because they have a back room full of ork and tyranid kits they want to flog), then why shouldn't they?

Note that the OP asks specifically about local games, not big tourneys.

 Duskweaver wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
To be honest this entire thread is indicative of a pretty unhealthy additude among a contingent of the 40k community

IMO, the indignant "how very dare you!" responses to the OP (and to some other recent threads like Englishman's marine fatigue one) say far more about the unhealthy entitlement complex of some marine players. And I say that as a (primarily) marine player myself.

There's nothing wrong with people deciding to limit which armies/factions are welcome at a particular event. I do think it would be dumb for a large (i.e. regional/national) tournament to ban a faction as popular as marines, but has anybody actually suggested that? If a store wants to run a non-marine event/tournament because they think it will be an interesting change (because maybe they're tired of the top three spots going to the same faction over and over; or because they want to encourage people to start xenos armies to create some more variety in future in-store games; or even just because they have a back room full of ork and tyranid kits they want to flog), then why shouldn't they?

Note that the OP asks specifically about local games, not big tourneys.

I agree. This is particularly the case in narrative tournaments which can be thematically undermined by trying to shoehorn every faction in, no matter how improbable, just because someone wants to play Catachans in a Webway war.

Marines are just another faction, I wouldn't get in tizz if I couln't play Drukhari in a Horus Heresy scenario, but the entitled screeching of some Marine players is ridiculous.

Just ban the supplements excluding the units, without those they're more or less perfectly fair. An IF player topped an event prior to the release of the supplement, they are clearly not required to compete and they just ruin the fun for everyone else.

BrianDavion wrote:
Banning an entire faction from a tourny is stupid period. Banning one of the most popular armies that makes up a considerable portion of your player base is BEYOND stupid. seriously this has to be the dumbest idea I've ever heard of. Besides what is it you'd hope to achomplish with this? I won't make armies more varied. it won't improve the game at all (marine lists being broken is hardly a common theme in 40k.) as far as I can tell the only person who'd benifit is your local store which would end up selling more hoard armies

Unfamiliar with IH win-rates? Stronger than every other army than any other army has been compared to its meta in the history of 8th, they get a love tap of a nerf and suddenly SM players are squeeling like pigs as their OP BS is getting taken away from them. If 20% of the players at a tournament ruin it for 80% those 20% should be banned. Whether that's by drinking beer, unsportsmanlike conduct or bringing an OP army.

When FW was OP it was nerfed because it was pay-to-win, when the best counter for Marines are either mirror-match or another kind of Marines that's just as bad.

 Sobekta wrote:
Has anyone been in a local game where there was a no marine army rule? If so how did it go?

Wew lad

Space marines have been powerful for what, a whole 2 months and people are already acting like it's the end of the world.

I think some of the indignation is coming from the fact that the OP is talking about excluding an army, whilst in reality armies are people, players. Not everyone runs more than one army and even if they have multiple armies they might not have enough points for a 2K (that being the average) tournament list. So excluding a whole army is also excluding those players.

Marines is considered daft because its very popular; however Tyranid or Eldar or any other race being excluded would also generate some ire.

A story driven campaign might work, but I'd wager any faction exclusion would only be happenstance based on the playerbase (ergo there is no army X because no one plays army X).

 Overread wrote:
I think some of the indignation is coming from the fact that the OP is talking about excluding an army, whilst in reality armies are people, players. Not everyone runs more than one army and even if they have multiple armies they might not have enough points for a 2K (that being the average) tournament list. So excluding a whole army is also excluding those players.

Given the phrasing in the initial post, it isn't one army. There are multiple "marine" factions these days. It'd mean excluding:

- Codex: Space Marines (and supplements)
- Codex: Blood Angels
- Codex: Dark Angels
- Codex: Space Wolves
- Codex: Deathwatch
- Codex: Grey Knights
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines
- Codex: Death Guard
- Codex: Thousand Sons

That's a hell of an exclusion list.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think some of the indignation is coming from the fact that the OP is talking about excluding an army, whilst in reality armies are people, players. Not everyone runs more than one army and even if they have multiple armies they might not have enough points for a 2K (that being the average) tournament list. So excluding a whole army is also excluding those players.

Given the phrasing in the initial post, it isn't one army. There are multiple "marine" factions these days. It'd mean excluding:

- Codex: Space Marines (and supplements)
- Codex: Blood Angels
- Codex: Dark Angels
- Codex: Space Wolves
- Codex: Deathwatch
- Codex: Grey Knights
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines
- Codex: Death Guard
- Codex: Thousand Sons

That's a hell of an exclusion list.

which By the way, based off a poll done on dakka-dakka awhile back amounts for.. close to 50% of the player base.

I oppose, strongly, banning an entire army from a tourny, but banning Marines is just ludercris.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:
Just ban the supplements excluding the units, without those they're more or less perfectly fair. An IF player topped an event prior to the release of the supplement, they are clearly not required to compete and they just ruin the fun for everyone else.

BrianDavion wrote:
Banning an entire faction from a tourny is stupid period. Banning one of the most popular armies that makes up a considerable portion of your player base is BEYOND stupid. seriously this has to be the dumbest idea I've ever heard of. Besides what is it you'd hope to achomplish with this? I won't make armies more varied. it won't improve the game at all (marine lists being broken is hardly a common theme in 40k.) as far as I can tell the only person who'd benifit is your local store which would end up selling more hoard armies

Unfamiliar with IH win-rates? Stronger than every other army than any other army has been compared to its meta in the history of 8th, they get a love tap of a nerf and suddenly SM players are squeeling like pigs as their OP BS is getting taken away from them. If 20% of the players at a tournament ruin it for 80% those 20% should be banned. Whether that's by drinking beer, unsportsmanlike conduct or bringing an OP army.

When FW was OP it was nerfed because it was pay-to-win, when the best counter for Marines are either mirror-match or another kind of Marines that's just as bad.

Iron Hands? thats the supplement that GW just nerfed right? I 100% agree Iron Hands was entirely too strong, and GW nerfed it. it's now good, but I suspect not obscenely so.

and for the record I opposed banning eldar from tournies back when Eldar where OP. banning individual units? sure! no problem there. banning supplements in a tourny? I'm down with that. but banning tim';s blood raven assault marine army because you have a issue with iron hands being OP is just lunacy.

I wish mods did more in this forum to discourage troll threads and just end them when they get off track.

Although I'm sure this thread is just fine and will be very friendly, useful, and productive. And yes I'm aware of the iron of my post.

I haven't played in one, but I have seen one at my store. 18 armies. all eldar, IG+castellan, orcs ad mecha+castellan, a single knight list and a single chaos soup. Seemed to have worked fine. No idea how it would work in big western stores with their 100+ people playing.

Quasistellar wrote:
I wish mods did more in this forum to discourage troll threads and just end them when they get off track.

I think it's a higher priority that they fix the weird forum bug that apparently causes the browsers of marine fans to turn this entirely reasonable post

Has anyone been in a local game where there was a no marine army rule? If so how did it go?

into this obvious troll

Aarglebargle! Marines totes OP! Ban them all NAO!!!1!!eleven

Seriously, that second version is what some marine fans genuinely seem to think the OP says, going by their reactions to it. It's quite baffling.

I’d say it can be fun. Particularly if it’s done in the spirit of seeing the less popular factions on the table.

A small-point tournament (500 points?) with a three-month lead time might be a fun event that would encourage sales for the store, especially if it's marine centric. Give people time to buy and build a small non-Marine force to play.

All of the people I game with have Marines + 1 other army (at least) so wouldn’t impact our player base. No harm would come from asking about interest at your local. Put up a page with a Facebook link or something. Or whatever it is the cool kids are doing these days.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Why not ban tournaments? they bring out the worst in most people.

More impractical than "No Marines", but it sounds good to me.

Now imagine this thread being about banning eldar/orks/tau/daemons.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think some of the indignation is coming from the fact that the OP is talking about excluding an army, whilst in reality armies are people, players. Not everyone runs more than one army and even if they have multiple armies they might not have enough points for a 2K (that being the average) tournament list. So excluding a whole army is also excluding those players.

Given the phrasing in the initial post, it isn't one army. There are multiple "marine" factions these days. It'd mean excluding:

- Codex: Space Marines (and supplements)
- Codex: Blood Angels
- Codex: Dark Angels
- Codex: Space Wolves
- Codex: Deathwatch
- Codex: Grey Knights
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines
- Codex: Death Guard
- Codex: Thousand Sons

That's a hell of an exclusion list.

If the ban is more for getting rid of factions that play different game to others it's basically just first row of this. Rest play 8th ed rather than 8.5

I could see a ban on supplements until more factions have more rules. The core marine book is still quite good and vastly better than what DA/BA/GK/SW have.

The marine book in itself is quite well rounded and balance wise in a very good spot. More books should be on that level.

What breaks it is the supplements that give an additional doctrine bonus and extra traits/relics/strats/powers that adds an extra layer of good/broken rules to what was already quite good.

So even though Iron Hands received heavy nerfs and both Imperial Fists and Salamanders are not officially released, some people are suggesting the exclusion of Space Marines in tournaments.

This reminds of the days when people were furious about Genestealer Cult Kelermorph, and urged GW to nerf them before the codex was officially released.

Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

I am afraid I don't agree with your assessment at all, the lists do fairly well against other armies but being forced to 12" deepstrike, many reductions to charge ranges and various unit slow down effects combined with Daemons and Tyranids not being a inherently shooty army makes an incredibly unfun match up. Yes it's a shooting dominant edition and I am making the best I can out of a mono codex army vs other mono codex armies. The issue stands Brian that Marines out range, out threat AND have very good tools to deal with me marching up the board.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

They did get tougher to get rid of by the maxim of best form of attack is defence. When your killing power goes to nth degree you can cripple your enemy so well they struggle to kill anything in return.

For numarines taking out 2-3 doomsday arks in a turn isn't that hard and then all their vehicles are essentially invulnerable.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Recently a tournament happened with a good 70+% of people playing marines.

A local passer-by commented thinking the 30k tournament was next weekend, a good chuckle was had by all (minus the seemingly offended one marine player, not quite sure why he couldn't lighten up)

As a Daemon/ Xeno player I am sick of playing against marines to my back teeth, but I wouldn't ban them from a non narrative tournament. I DO however say to my local meta that I'll play against marines maybe once a month or fortnight and politely turn down all other games against them (SM codex). I have no desire to play to their fantasy of marines gunning down hordes of tyranids whilst I can barely scratch them.

err you realize that Marines outside of Iron Hands didn't see much change to their survivability yeah? they've a few handy strats to toughen up a unit from massed firepower but if you're having trouble killing units in an Ultramarines army, that's a problem with your list more then an issue with their army.

Wait, what? I've got to ignore ap1 across all my units. All my tanks gained that plus Master Artisan. I can half damage on dreadnoughts, I have extra wounds on all Gravis and Centurion suits. That's just off the top of my hat,and ignoring the fact that a tyranid unit that got destroyed by shooting or even preemptive charges also makes my marines survive longer, since less damage is coming in.

I play both marines and Tyranids and right now I'd say marines are quite a bit ahead in power level. The only thing that really works for Tyranids in that setup is speed - Genestealers, Swarmlord, WHT with Onslaught. That's probably it,and its not enough in my experience (it's not enough vs other armies, such as Tau, either, so it's not the marine codex that's at fault)

Looking at the backlash in this thread against the suggestion of a small local tournament banning marines for a single (possibly narrative) event ...

I think for the sake of community cohesion it would be probably best to just never even suggest the idea.

I don't get why people hate diversity.

If somebody wants to run a no-Marine tournament, or a no-Psyker tournament, or a no-Superheavy tournament, or a no-models-painted-green tournament, more power to them. Let's keep it fresh and try different things.

I genuinely can't see the big gripe against marines.

While the IH Codex WAS silly powerful, it has been nerfed and is no longer able to do rediculous combos as it could. And let's be honest to ourselves, the IH Codex has currently been the only blatantly powerful marine Codex to date that achieved exceedingly high tournament scores.

Banning marines for the infractions of one Codex in the whole of 8th (which is now nearly 2.5 years of time) seems rather strange. Marines until the 2019 Codex were not duper competitive unless you ran Guilliman for the reroll everything spam. Now they are in a position where even a custom marine chapter can at least hold its own. Yes. Constant marine releases are tiresome (even I'm glad it's coming to an end!) but anyone who says this update wasn't required is not honest or enjoyed curb stomping marine players.

But I'll repeat what I've originally thought from reading DakkaDakka since the 2019 Codex reveals - lots of players are now put out that they actually had better rules. GW have stated many times 8th would be fully updated throughout and the 2019 Codex is one of them. I wish all codex books will get a marine style update, as some are in desperate need. Until the 2019 Codex, how many genuine 100% marine only armies did you see that didn't have Guilliman in them at tournaments?

I've rambled on enough. But all this negative marine talk is getting extremely tiresome and if I'm honest, very petty. The new supplements aren't even out yet and already people are getting angry and claiming this and this is too strong.

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

If you want to see a no-marine tournament go back in time a few months.

 Nym wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

despite the term codex creep it doesn't always happen, sometimes a codex just clicks better then others. we'll see future codices that are stronger then the current marines one, and we'll see those that are weaker. garenteed

 Drachii wrote:
If you want to see a no-marine tournament go back in time a few months.

Have an exalt good sir. People seem to forget when there were virtually no marine lists in tournaments, just soup ingredients.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 Drachii wrote:
If you want to see a no-marine tournament go back in time a few months.

Have an exalt good sir. People seem to forget when there were virtually no marine lists in tournaments, just soup ingredients.

Good thing they now do everything better than all those other imperial factions

 Nym wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

If Marines are so broken why do Ultramarines, ravenguard have a 50% and 52% win rate lower than aldari and Drukari for the same time period whitescars are maybe over performing but that could also be that making them works has been a bit of a challenge and they are only being played by a few people with a game plan.

So continue on about how no other codex can compete against the unbeatable OP ness that is the 9th edition codex's that are still out won by 8.0 codex's.

The people who probably have a genuine reason to complain are necrons and pure nid players. But those codex's had issues before marines 2.0 anyway.

Ice_can wrote:

 Nym wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:

But this is DakkaDakka. Give it a month or two and no doubt somebody will whine their army didn't get enough like the marines did. I'm calling it now.

Of course this will happen ! Because Marines are basically playing 9th edition now, while we're all stuck in 8th edition. They've been given so many buffs that all other armies need a serious power-up to compete...

If anyone gets a new codex ans it's not full of broken stratagems, crazy faction traits and ridiculous special character, whining IS legitimate.

If Marines are so broken why do Ultramarines, ravenguard have a 50% and 52% win rate lower than aldari and Drukari for the same time period whitescars are maybe over performing but that could also be that making them works has been a bit of a challenge and they are only being played by a few people with a game plan.

So continue on about how no other codex can compete against the unbeatable OP ness that is the 9th edition codex's that are still out won by 8.0 codex's.

The people who probably have a genuine reason to complain are necrons and pure nid players. But those codex's had issues before marines 2.0 anyway.

Necrons beat SM and even IH according to stats centre, I'm not sure how Marines managed to top events while Necrons almost never managed it while still winning against Marines.

Should really just ban IH and IF - they are clear outliers getting too much free power.

Ultras are indeed strong but they aren't any stronger than knights and guard/ or alitoc flyers. Same for raven guard and white scars.

IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Nah dude.

Their tactic is bonkers level too...Ignore cover and 6's generate additional hits with bolt weapons. +1 damage to vehicles is literally double damage for most weapons vs vehicles (this is straight busted - it's kind of like having seal of oath against every vehicle in an army - without even needing be be in an aura). This also makes their overwatch insane with a chapter master. There is a reason we were warned about these 2 chapters ahead of time.

Marines in general are strong and needed a boost and they sure got it. However - all the supplements except for white scars and ultramarines seem to be getting a little too much extra help.

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Please point me to where Ultramarines and Whitescars can get busted as all hell MW generating AntiHorde DevCents?

Oh nope that Crap is Imperial Fists keyword locked?
Oh anything with high rof and low damage gets a 50 or 100% damage increase against vehicals for IF and no,one else sure that's perfectly not at all worth any penalty.

This space marine bashing has gotten really old really fast. First no one shut up about how bad marines were now no one shuts up about how OP they are. Ugh ^^

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
This space marine bashing has gotten really old really fast. First no one shut up about how bad marines were now no one shuts up about how OP they are. Ugh ^^

People wanted balance not...My army does 120% more damage (like imperial fists do to vehicles) Imagine playing imperial knights vs that? it's like your knights have 12 wounds.

It'll be just like all those 6E/7E tournaments where CWE were banned?

Remember those?

Nope? Me neither.

Because it's a silly idea.

You can keep banning the top of the pile, but that just leaves the next-tallest-nail sticking up and pissing everyone off. Except in addition to an unbalanced mess, you now also have a bunch of people you've excluded.

So be a dick to a bunch of people just so you can have just as imbalanced an event.

Not a good idea.

Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Ice_can wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Please point me to where Ultramarines and Whitescars can get busted as all hell MW generating AntiHorde DevCents?

Oh nope that Crap is Imperial Fists keyword locked?
Oh anything with high rof and low damage gets a 50 or 100% damage increase against vehicals for IF and no,one else sure that's perfectly not at all worth any penalty.

Yeah, totally forgot that other armies don't have any stratagems and chapter tactics...

 Jidmah wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IF are just as strong as custom chapters, White Scars and Ultra Marines.

Please point me to where Ultramarines and Whitescars can get busted as all hell MW generating AntiHorde DevCents?

Oh nope that Crap is Imperial Fists keyword locked?
Oh anything with high rof and low damage gets a 50 or 100% damage increase against vehicals for IF and no,one else sure that's perfectly not at all worth any penalty.

Yeah, totally forgot that other armies don't have any stratagems and chapter tactics...

I give it 4 months before people are complaining about Marines sucking again

I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

I can understand why GW favours Marines, it makes sense, but it has the potential to cause problems over the longer term.

When new Marine players get into the hobby, they are imagining their dudes gunning down Nids, Daemons, or similar, but what they will more likely get is endless opponents using the same Marine models, with different colour schemes.

 harlokin wrote:
I can understand why GW favours Marines, it makes sense, but it has the potential to cause problems over the longer term.

When new Marine players get into the hobby, they are imagining their dudes gunning down Nids, Daemons, or similar, but what they will more likely get is endless opponents using the same Marine models, with different colour schemes.

just as often what they get is an army thats more or less ineffective getting blown away by guardsmen.

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Don't be silly, Marines should be happy with their mini releases, we can't expect half-way decently strong rules for them too, I mean golly gee!

The amount of hate being thrown at SM on this thread is mind blowing. Let's calm down a bit and let the next month of results pan out post-faq. We also have CA 2019 coming. It should come as no surprise to anyone that each faction tends to have their turn in the sun when a new codex comes out. I for one will be happy to see BT get some love, but I am assuming that they will get hit with the nerf bat after a week or two. It's just the SOP for 8th.

Going back to the original post - it's always best to be inclusive. Sure, have some one-off narrative campaigns, but it is generally a bad move to exclude an entire faction from events.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

You keep doing you, man.

nareik wrote:
An excellent idea for a one off event!

Then you can provide all the armies to marine players that don't have another.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

You keep doing you, man.

we should arrange a play date with martell. (who in fairness was reasonably happy with the state of marines with this 'dex)

Voss wrote:

nareik wrote:
An excellent idea for a one off event!

Then you can provide all the armies to marine players that don't have another.

Great suggestion! Removes the lack of inclusivity. Would probably let ticket sales / entry applications run without that first though. If it sells out without needing to loan armies its a succesful format.

I have been to tournaments with no Astartes lists. Knights and Eldar variants won most games.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Well that's not problem now since marines are playing whole different game now. Where other mortals are working on ground marines are already exploring new galaxies.

tneva82 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Well that's not problem now since marines are playing whole different game now. Where other mortals are working on ground marines are already exploring new galaxies.

From what I've seen (and experienced) marines (outside of pre nerf IH) are mostly on the level of other top tier armies, not above that. The main difference to eg Eldar is that for Eldar its easy to build a weak list, which is really hard to do with Marines now,since there isn't anything that's just plain bad. Servitor spam maybe?

Bharring wrote:
It'll be just like all those 6E/7E tournaments where CWE were banned?

Remember those?

Nope? Me neither.

Because it's a silly idea.

You can keep banning the top of the pile, but that just leaves the next-tallest-nail sticking up and pissing everyone off. Except in addition to an unbalanced mess, you now also have a bunch of people you've excluded.

So be a dick to a bunch of people just so you can have just as imbalanced an event.

Not a good idea.

Some FW Aeldari stuff was banned actually, i played Corsairs and 2 events wouldn't let them play, and unless you took that 1 formation they were not better than other CWE, they were about White scars level of powerful (7th WS).

BrianDavion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I don't mind marines beng a fun army to play but it's no fun when they can stomp all over your army time after time.

Some of us would like to occasionally win with our armies that gw treats like a bastard at a family reunion.

Conversely, so would a lot of us Marine players.

Don't be silly, Marines should be happy with their mini releases, we can't expect half-way decently strong rules for them too, I mean golly gee!

Marines have enjoyed by FAR the most new model releases this edition (30). More than the entire combined Xenos releases. More than every other IOM faction combined.

Marines have also enjoyed by FAR the most codex releases now having a supplement for every sub-faction that provides more stratagems, relics and WL traits than any other sub faction by far. My subfaction gets 1 unique stratagem, relic and WL trait. How many do RG, IF, IH, UM, WS and Sallies get again?

Marines have gone from middling competitively (UM managed a 50% win ratio which is greater than, say, Orks who are considered competitive) to the strongest faction bar none. Not only are they the strongest but they also possess the most options.

If you think all of the above is balanced, fair, or should continue I can tell you that you're wrong. It is not good for the hobby. It is not good for hobbyists. Long term it will not be good for GW's bottom line, either.

You forgot "It's op compared to GK"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


If you think all of the above is balanced, fair, or should continue I can tell you that you're wrong. It is not good for the hobby. It is not good for hobbyists. Long term it will not be good for GW's bottom line, either.

what if marines are like pepsi, there are different types of it and flavours, but the one that sells the most is always the classic pepsi. Now not everyone may like it, maybe they like Pepsi lime or cranberry more, but it would maybe be unresonable to expect Pepsi co, sell and price all those bonus flavours the same as the regular Pepsi.

I would try an army banned tourney

Funny enough, when eldar where super top army I had a marine player trying to start a no eldar league at once stage.

Imperial knights sorta soft banned themselves. A lot of people just pack up never to return after they come out. But that probably does not count.

But realistically you should not be banning a army, if you cannot ban some elements to tone it down maybe then but as a last resort only.

Once you go narrative, then it’s a bit less of a issue.

Apple fox wrote:
Funny enough, when eldar where super top army I had a marine player trying to start a no eldar league at once stage.

Imperial knights sorta soft banned themselves. A lot of people just pack up never to return after they come out. But that probably does not count.

But realistically you should not be banning a army, if you cannot ban some elements to tone it down maybe then but as a last resort only.

Once you go narrative, then it’s a bit less of a issue.

I have been running an IH list but I am not taking a really competitive list, I am using mostly dreadnoughts because they are a lot better in an IH list and I have had them sitting on the shelf forever(had to clean a lot of dust off of them). I did proxy a couple of the new invictor warsuits to try them out as well since they are dreadnought-ish models. I have not been making a character dreadnought to make it untargetable. While my list is not terrible I would be surprised if it would be able to win a bigger tournament.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

I think you don't understand what "never" means.

Or "low tier army".

Sure, several of their stints at the top of the pack have been based on gimmicks, but that's true of most stints at the top of the pack.

I heard of people back in 6th and 7th banning certain factions that were just way out of whack, like the early Grey Knights or the Imperial Knights when they came out as a full fledged faction.

Those were the days when GW wouldn't release an FAQ for years at a time. Now that's not really an issue, and the competitive meta is more mutable and wild than eve before. Yeah, you'll have lots of marine players now, but then the next codex will come out, or the next rule update, or the next neat model, and suddenly a faction that wasn't present at all will come out of the woodworks with some crazy combo.

There's a lot of anti-marine sentiment right now thanks to the controversy of the Iron Hands and how much attention marines have been getting over the past few months. It's the same as the anti-Eldar Alaitoc sentiment, the anti-Knight Castellan frustration, the anti-Tau resentment-from-five-editions-ago. It comes and goes all based on the whims of people that lost one or two games and don't bother adjusting their list or trying a different kind of deployment or using the units they have appropriately.

 Jidmah wrote:
You forgot "It's op compared to GK"

Yeah, but everything is OP compared to GK. Probably even other GK. Somehow.

Apple fox wrote:
Funny enough, when eldar where super top army I had a marine player trying to start a no eldar league at once stage.

Imperial knights sorta soft banned themselves. A lot of people just pack up never to return after they come out. But that probably does not count.

But realistically you should not be banning a army, if you cannot ban some elements to tone it down maybe then but as a last resort only.

Once you go narrative, then it’s a bit less of a issue.

II remember those discussions, I also remember arguing that banning an entire army was a bad idea. A better idea would be, if a certain mechanic etc is proving broken, issue a "tourny FAQ" that tweeks it. Most gaming groups use house rules when nesscary, ITC already has house rules with their custom missions.

I'd also personally be fine with tournies adopting a "codex only" stance. baning space marines? bit much. mandating an army that has it's rules spread across 4 supplements, a codex, a white dwarf article and a singing telegram, just use it's codex? seems fair.

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

I think you don't understand what "never" means.

Or "low tier army".

Sure, several of their stints at the top of the pack have been based on gimmicks, but that's true of most stints at the top of the pack.

I don't consider super friends or a forgeworld libby that automatically gives you the most busted spell ever imagined a space marine list. They were naughty soup lists. Gladius was quite strong but I find 7.5 edition to be rather forgettable...it was basically experimenting for 8th edition. If you wanted to grab a codex and pick up models in the store. Space marines have routinely been a terrible choice if you wanted a strong army. I should know I've been playing them for 10+ years. Eldar on the other hand (which I have also played for just as long) have routinely had VERY good rules. Even in the edditions they weren't uber busted - you could take them to a local and win just because you played good.

Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

Yeah, I think Xeno needs some more experience.

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

Yeah, I think Xeno needs some more experience.

In fairness if Marines where last any good 26 years ago that is pretty bad.

eaither way right now the rules situation is they're amazing. no arguement there. I don't think I've ever felt this comfortable with "Grabbing and going" with my codex.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

Dude you always think marines are strong and run tactical squads in every edition. You would lose every game playing like that around here. Literally - every game. What is your motive for saying marines have been strong when they really havn't been is the real question. It is not even up for debate whether they have been strong or not. There is a consensus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

Yeah, I think Xeno needs some more experience.

In fairness if Marines where last any good 26 years ago that is pretty bad.

eaither way right now the rules situation is they're amazing. no arguement there. I don't think I've ever felt this comfortable with "Grabbing and going" with my codex.

I played some when I was younger too but didn't really understand the game like I do now. I don't include that. Though - there is no question in my mind that DE were superior to marines in the first edition I played. I think that was 3rd.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Marines will never be banned. They receive great rules in the supplements and perform well from what I understand- I imagine, don't play them.

At the end of the day SM will always be the movie hero of GWs line. Everything else is a whipping boy (barring Asuryianii - or whatever the feth they are called).

Xenos are the red headed stepchild who gets bullied so SM players can feel great about themselves.

OK, challenge to GW. Lets bring out 40K Dark Mech rules and make them obscenely good.

I am drunk and need sleep.

Space marines have basically never had good rules. Typically a low tier army. Maybe a few Gimmicks that can work over the years but not a strong overall army.

I think you don't understand what "never" means.

Or "low tier army".

Sure, several of their stints at the top of the pack have been based on gimmicks, but that's true of most stints at the top of the pack.

I don't consider super friends or a forgeworld libby that automatically gives you the most busted spell ever imagined a space marine list. They were naughty soup lists.

Invis Eldar Star = OP Eldar
Invis Marine Star = Gimmick

Gladius was quite strong but I find 7.5 edition to be rather forgettable...it was basically experimenting for 8th edition. If you wanted to grab a codex and pick up models in the store.

Marines in Tanks = gimmick, because tanks win not Marines
Eldar in DAVU Serpents = Eldar OP, despite tanks winnning not Eldar

Space marines have routinely been a terrible choice if you wanted a strong army. I should know I've been playing them for 10+ years.

I didn't realize it's been 10 years since pre-nerf Gman. Or Gladius. Or SuperFriends. Or CentStar. Or early-7th ObSec spam. Or Grav Bikers. or.... lots of things.

Eldar on the other hand (which I have also played for just as long) have routinely had VERY good rules. Even in the edditions they weren't uber busted - you could take them to a local and win just because you played good.

No argument that Eldar have been OP more often than Marines. But "There exists one other army, out of roughly 20 in the game, that has been OP more often" is a far cry from "Space marines have basically never had good rules".

In the past 6 years alone, Marines have been top-tier many times. If you've been playing for 10+ years, you must take an awful lot of awfully long breaks.

Pre nerf gman wasn't strong lol. Literally one of the least competitive builds in the existence of 8th edition meta armies.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pre nerf gman wasn't strong lol. Literally one of the least competitive builds in the existence of 8th edition meta armies.

This interpretation is the why we keep disagreeing. I consider a build that won plenty of tournaments (in the period before the first CA) to be "strong". You consider that same standard as "Literally one of the least competitive builds in the existence of 8th edition meta armies.".

Sure, if you consider 99% of builds in the game "least competitive", that kinda-sorta possibly makes a twisted sort of sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Having played for around 25 years I van say that you're wrong.

Dude you always think marines are strong and run tactical squads in every edition. You would lose every game playing like that around here. Literally - every game. What is your motive for saying marines have been strong when they really havn't been is the real question. It is not even up for debate whether they have been strong or not. There is a consensus.

I've been at or near the top in every meta I've ever played in using vanilla marines. Marines have always had flexible enough options to weather meta changes, not necessarily making them top-tier, but far from bottom tier in the hands of a skilled player. Marines baseline is usually "middle of the road", but because of their options you can nearly always optimize something workable around them. At the end of the day my army is primarily a mix of dudes in power armor with some variety of weapons.

It's a stark contrast to Eldar which varies wildly from edition to edition (This year it's Warp Spiders!, This year it's Shining Spears!, This year it's Dark Reapers!, etc.)

Eldar have always had a decent competitive level. Although they have had some bad times.

Space Marines have always been a fairly solid army usually a b+ to A- level (if someone can translate that for anyone who doesn't understand American grading vernacular thank you)

They just happen to.be strong now not unlike the days of the spiritual life Dex before BA and GK got released

Marines will have their time their time in the spotlight for now. In 12 months Dakka will be flooded again with posts dismissing them as overpriced and inefficient.

The meta is a harsh mistress and the tone has been set for the next cycle of codex releases

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Marines will have their time their time in the spotlight for now. In 12 months Dakka will be flooded again with posts dismissing them as overpriced and inefficient.

The meta is a harsh mistress and the tone has been set for the next cycle of codex releases

The hope is the meta does not swing quite this hard. And i think its bad :( since its great if you get your time, but it just sucks if you are sitting at or in the bottom tiers for years. GW does not cycle though everyone fast enough for this style of meta shift.

Apple fox wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Marines will have their time their time in the spotlight for now. In 12 months Dakka will be flooded again with posts dismissing them as overpriced and inefficient.

The meta is a harsh mistress and the tone has been set for the next cycle of codex releases

The hope is the meta does not swing quite this hard. And i think its bad :( since its great if you get your time, but it just sucks if you are sitting at or in the bottom tiers for years. GW does not cycle though everyone fast enough for this style of meta shift.

that mighta been the case awhile back, but GW's been able to supply everyone with a codex in what a little over a year?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pre nerf gman wasn't strong lol. Literally one of the least competitive builds in the existence of 8th edition meta armies.

Your shovel is seeing a lot of wear and tear there. Want to borrow mine? I think that hill you're dying on needs a deeper hole.

But let me try and see what I can do to translate your ridiculous and inane hyperbole into actual, useful information so that the hidden point you're trying to make isn't lost among the ridiculous unsupported claims you often use to try and double down on a poorly communicated premise.

"Literally one of the least competitive builds in the existence of 8th edition meta armies" = Despite winning many events in the early days of 8th edition, and receiving multiple subsequent nerfs to address this imbalance, marines in 8th edition have not been as dominant (until now) as things like Knight Castellans, 7 Flyrant, Eldar Flying Circus, or Ynnari, which were all far more dangerous meta defining armies than the Gman and his Flyboys lists were.

But isn't Xeno saying that G-men lists are like that guy that comes in 4-5th in an wrestling event on a regular basis? no one is going to care about him, he will get no contracts, best he can hope for is a job as trainer, if he didn't get wrecked to much by the people that really were winning, and to to go to worlds or even the olympics.


I mean GK won like 3-4 events in 8th, does that mean that GK are a good and fun army to play?


Also stuff like eldar always were decent is a bit of an understatment about the past. Now I don't know about the rest of the world, but I did get to go through win ratios for Poland from 6th and 7th ed. And eldar specially in 6th were wrecking face, the number of people playing them and winning was incomperable. Because with marines, some people win with them, but there is also a lot of people that seem to go 2:3, or even worse with mono marines, eldar do at least a 50/50 split, and guys doing 2:3 were those that lost two mirror matchs, or played vs two skew lists back to back.

Karol wrote:
But isn't Xeno saying that G-men lists are like that guy that comes in 4-5th in an wrestling event on a regular basis? no one is going to care about him, he will get no contracts, best he can hope for is a job as trainer, if he didn't get wrecked to much by the people that really were winning, and to to go to worlds or even the olympics.

I mean GK won like 3-4 events in 8th, does that mean that GK are a good and fun army to play?

Pre-nerf Gman wasn't coming in 4th-5th regularly. It was winning or coming in second regularly.

Also stuff like eldar always were decent is a bit of an understatment about the past.

Actually an overstatement. They were almost always at least decent. They were usually OP, but not always decent.

Now I don't know about the rest of the world, but I did get to go through win ratios for Poland from 6th and 7th ed. And eldar specially in 6th were wrecking face, the number of people playing them and winning was incomperable.

After they got their book in 6th, they were indeed OP. Before their book, they weren't even decent. And their book came out over halfway through 6th. Which means that, despite beign the most OP gak of all of 6E, they spent most of it as not OP. So using 6E as the example to prove they were always much more than decent is quite off.

Because with marines, some people win with them, but there is also a lot of people that seem to go 2:3, or even worse with mono marines, eldar do at least a 50/50 split, and guys doing 2:3 were those that lost two mirror matchs, or played vs two skew lists back to back.

When discussing "Pre-Gman-nerf", Marines doing worse after the Gman nerf isn't all that relevant.

Bharring wrote:

Karol wrote:
But isn't Xeno saying that G-men lists are like that guy that comes in 4-5th in an wrestling event on a regular basis? no one is going to care about him, he will get no contracts, best he can hope for is a job as trainer, if he didn't get wrecked to much by the people that really were winning, and to to go to worlds or even the olympics.

I mean GK won like 3-4 events in 8th, does that mean that GK are a good and fun army to play?

Pre-nerf Gman wasn't coming in 4th-5th regularly. It was winning or coming in second regularly.

Also stuff like eldar always were decent is a bit of an understatment about the past.

Actually an overstatement. They were almost always at least decent. They were usually OP, but not always decent.

Now I don't know about the rest of the world, but I did get to go through win ratios for Poland from 6th and 7th ed. And eldar specially in 6th were wrecking face, the number of people playing them and winning was incomperable.

After they got their book in 6th, they were indeed OP. Before their book, they weren't even decent. And their book came out over halfway through 6th. Which means that, despite beign the most OP gak of all of 6E, they spent most of it as not OP. So using 6E as the example to prove they were always much more than decent is quite off.

Because with marines, some people win with them, but there is also a lot of people that seem to go 2:3, or even worse with mono marines, eldar do at least a 50/50 split, and guys doing 2:3 were those that lost two mirror matchs, or played vs two skew lists back to back.

When discussing "Pre-Gman-nerf", Marines doing worse after the Gman nerf isn't all that relevant.

LOL Gman list was not winning regularly. If you look at big events that are over 100 players people don't even bring marines because you'd have to be a fanboi to even play marines at a big Tournament. You are in complete denial about the game and it's sad. Aledari of all kinds are regularly winning events. Once in a blue moon an Ultramarines lists would place kind of high in a decent sized tournament. Basically you can get lucky with a glass cannon army. When an opponent rolls all 1's on d6 damage on your repulsors.

Gman list regularly lose casual games dude. WAKE UP. Imperial fist right now are numbers of factors more powerful than gman Ultramarines ever were. It's not even close.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Karol wrote:
But isn't Xeno saying that G-men lists are like that guy that comes in 4-5th in an wrestling event on a regular basis? no one is going to care about him, he will get no contracts, best he can hope for is a job as trainer, if he didn't get wrecked to much by the people that really were winning, and to to go to worlds or even the olympics.

I mean GK won like 3-4 events in 8th, does that mean that GK are a good and fun army to play?

Pre-nerf Gman wasn't coming in 4th-5th regularly. It was winning or coming in second regularly.

Also stuff like eldar always were decent is a bit of an understatment about the past.

Actually an overstatement. They were almost always at least decent. They were usually OP, but not always decent.

Now I don't know about the rest of the world, but I did get to go through win ratios for Poland from 6th and 7th ed. And eldar specially in 6th were wrecking face, the number of people playing them and winning was incomperable.

After they got their book in 6th, they were indeed OP. Before their book, they weren't even decent. And their book came out over halfway through 6th. Which means that, despite beign the most OP gak of all of 6E, they spent most of it as not OP. So using 6E as the example to prove they were always much more than decent is quite off.

Because with marines, some people win with them, but there is also a lot of people that seem to go 2:3, or even worse with mono marines, eldar do at least a 50/50 split, and guys doing 2:3 were those that lost two mirror matchs, or played vs two skew lists back to back.

When discussing "Pre-Gman-nerf", Marines doing worse after the Gman nerf isn't all that relevant.

LOL Gman list was not winning regularly. If you look at big events that are over 100 players people don't even bring marines because you'd have to be a fanboi to even play marines at a big Tournament. You are in complete denial about the game and it's sad. Aledari of all kinds are regularly winning events. Once in a blue moon an Ultramarines lists would place kind of high in a decent sized tournament.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/06/40k-8th-first-tourney-results-are-in.html - Boise Cup, Oct 2017
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/ - A GW tournament, results posted 10/17

First two tournament results I find by googling in that era show 2 Marines in the top 3. In two seperate tournaments. It's hard for me to consider that "weak".

These two specific tournaments may not be the biggest, but they were the first two I found. So biased towards impact, but not biased for/against either opinion.

Clearly, every clearly, marines *were* being taken to tournaments.

Basically you can get lucky with a glass cannon army. When an opponent rolls all 1's on d6 damage on your repulsors.

How many Repulsors did you see in 2017? I don't recall many.

Oh, and please tell me the odds of something like "Once in a blue moon an Ultramarines lists would place kind of high in a decent sized tournament." happening to happen twice out of three checked slots? And then doing the same thing the second tournament too? Back-of-the-envelop math puts it at around one in *ten thousand*.

Gman list regularly lose casual games dude. WAKE UP. Imperial fist right now are numbers of factors more powerful than gman Ultramarines ever were. It's not even close.

I'm not sure how post-many-nerfs Gman in a greatly-buffed SM book shows that pre-nerf Gman, from two years prior, wasn't any good. They're very different rulessets in very different metas.

2017 was a different game dude. Basically index 40k. Before opponents had well rounded stratagems which basically removed marines from the map entirely. You have to look at the edition as a whole - not in segments. Marines are OP as crap now BUT if over the next year 4-5 much stronger codex come out - marines aren't actually strong and never were. The releases are just staggered...that is all it is. As the releases come out it becomes clear what power actually is.

Gman and marines 1.0 from a competitive standpoint was in the bottom 20% WR in tournaments. By whatever metric you choose marines are on the bottom. It is a travesty to call Ultramarines OP with these numbers.

 Xenomancers wrote:
2017 was a different game dude. Basically index 40k. Before opponents had well rounded stratagems which basically removed marines from the map entirely. You have to look at the edition as a whole - not in segments. Marines are OP as crap now BUT if over the next year 4-5 much stronger codex come out - marines aren't actually strong and never were. The releases are just staggered...that is all it is. As the releases come out it becomes clear what power actually is.

Gman and marines 1.0 from a competitive standpoint was in the bottom 20% WR in tournaments. By whatever metric you choose marines are on the bottom. It is a travesty to call Ultramarines OP with these numbers.

2017 was, last I checked, within the last 10 years.

Marines not being OP - or even good - at later points doesn't mean they were weak then. And strongly suggests they were *not* bottom 20% then.

You keep citing Marines being terrible for one period of time as proof that Marines were never good. Does not follow.

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
2017 was a different game dude. Basically index 40k. Before opponents had well rounded stratagems which basically removed marines from the map entirely. You have to look at the edition as a whole - not in segments. Marines are OP as crap now BUT if over the next year 4-5 much stronger codex come out - marines aren't actually strong and never were. The releases are just staggered...that is all it is. As the releases come out it becomes clear what power actually is.

Gman and marines 1.0 from a competitive standpoint was in the bottom 20% WR in tournaments. By whatever metric you choose marines are on the bottom. It is a travesty to call Ultramarines OP with these numbers.

2017 was, last I checked, within the last 10 years.

Marines not being OP - or even good - at later points doesn't mean they were weak then. And strongly suggests they were *not* bottom 20% then.

You keep citing Marines being terrible for one period of time as proof that Marines were never good. Does not follow.

If your argument is that marines did well against index armies then I condeed. They sure did. It is irrelevant 8th eddition developed into a real game (a game where armies actually had rules) Marines proved to be dog crap by literally every metric. Including the "OP" Gman builds. I should know man. I've lost plenty of games with 1.0 gman against very casual armies. Because ultimately Gman 1.0 marines were not very good. Unlike playing Castellan knights against a casual army is basically an auto win condition.

I'm fine with the gman nerf too. I just wish they made him an HQ choice so you could actually use him in an army. As a LOW he is basically useless now because he isn't special at buffing like he used to be. He costs way too much. No reason he should cost more than the Yncarnne who is now 280...a psyker and an HQ.

People need to drop the “Marines have always been bad” narrative. While vanilla marines have struggled throughout the years, their specialist versions have dominated in past editions...BA, Wolves, and GK have all been king at one time. Even in 7th edition one of the most powerful lists was marine soup (the Barkstar). While they haven’t had the “every edition except 5th” goodness eldar has had, there have still been top tier marine variant builds in a lot of the game’s editions.

Marines get decent for the first time in years and people start wanting them removed from tournaments.

Say the same about their army- especially Tau or Eldar- and I bet the Shrieking would have the Howling Banshees telling them to cool it.

There were tournaments banning eldar and/or tau during 6th and 7th.

 Jidmah wrote:
There were tournaments banning eldar and/or tau during 6th and 7th.

Not to mention that Taudar is STILL banned.

 Jidmah wrote:
There were tournaments banning eldar and/or tau during 6th and 7th.

To be fair, banning Tau is just the right thing to do.

Because I hate them.

To be fair, banning marines is just the right thing to do.

Because I hate them.

It depends of the region but SM are most common so its hard to find honestly.