Hi all!

So, Ogors got a Battletome recently.

Overall, they don't look like a top tier army still, but they do have a few neat tricks.

To open up the discussion, I'll start by talking about one of the biggest additions - the Mawtribes. Specifically going to start with the Gutbuster ones. Of course you can take any mixture of Gutbuster and Beastclaw in the army now, and many abilities affect all of them, but the tribes are clearly designed to support one side more than the other.

It's also worth noting that if you choose a Mawtribe then you MUST take that tribe's artefact and trait. If you do so, then the ONLY way to get any of the 24 generic Artefacts is by also taking a battalion, and there is no way to get any other trait. At some point it's probably worth having a discussion about when, if ever, it makes sense to not take a tribe to access that host of traits - as the tribe abilities are all quite strong.

Meatfist


Underguts


Bloodgullet

Do you recon that there is any point in glutons since underguts leadbelchers have a higher damage output in general and are way more flexible?

The forced artefacts and traits etc are the new norm for sub factions it seems.
Any army that has its own faction options now seems to have this as a new standard.
While it is limiting, the benefits often outweigh the loss of these.

I do feel like battalions are over costed though.
Most new books have average at best battalions that give very little for what you get.
On the flip side, unique hero’s can technically ignore this anyway as they can’t be altered.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Do you recon that there is any point in glutons since underguts leadbelchers have a higher damage output in general and are way more flexible?

That's a very good question. In Underguts, if you have a Tyrant as General, then I would say Gluttons don't have much of a place.

If you run a Frostlord on Stonehorn or similar though, you may want to give them mass of scars and then you need Gluttons (or Mournfangs) for battleline. But at the point you're spending that many points on stuff that isn't Leadbelchers or Ironblasters is there any point running Underguts anyway?

Side note: don't you think it's weird that getting pistol whipped by a cannon is -1 rend, but those big scimitars that Gluttons carry have no rend..? I feel like if you swapped that around both units would make a bit more sense.

Nah, blunt weapons tend to be really good against armor so it makes sense that leadbelchers have a better rend.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Nah, blunt weapons tend to be really good against armor so it makes sense that leadbelchers have a better rend.

Yeah thinking about it slashing weapons like scimitars are about the worst against heavy armour. I'm thinking of piercing weapons.

Still, from a balance perspective Leadbelchers should be more or a tradeoff than they currently are.

It's better not to think in detail about exact weapon profiles; they rarely make any sort of sense.

Having thought about gluttons they do have two advantages over leadbelchers, one in squads of 12 they are massively cheaper per ogre, and two they have the banners which give them some useful gimmicks. Then while I think leadbelchers are still the better generalist choise, I wonder if running 12 gluttons with iron fists will work well as a sort of tarpit that punches back, since on average each ogre will deal three mortal wounds before dying, and they can be buffed further with a slaughtermaster.

I'm not sure where you're getting 3 mortal wounds per Ogor on average...

Against no rend, itll take 6 saves to kill the Ogor on average so if you fail 4 saves on average you will pass 2, of which 1 on average will cause a mortal wound.

Against rend of -1, it'll take 4.8 saves to kill the Ogor on average so if you fail 4 saves on average you will pass 0.8, which will be a 6 so 0.8 mortal wounds.

Against rend of -2 or better, the Ogor will die in 4 saves (of course), those 4 failed saves will include 0.67 6s, so 0.67 mortal wounds total.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Do you recon that there is any point in glutons since underguts leadbelchers have a higher damage output in general and are way more flexible?

Huh? Where are you getting this from? Unbuffed, they do about the same damage in general. As for leadbelchers having better versatility, I'd say that is subjective. Leadbelchers have shooting and better MSU opportunities, but Gluttons can reroll charges natively and/or ignore shooting damage on 6+ in addition to being 80 points cheaper for a max unit and either having melee attacks that explode on 6's or dealing mortal wounds back on saves of 6.

Point-for-point one leadbelcher is a better buy than one glutton, though not by much. However, gluttons have a horde unit discount, are generic battleline, and have music/banner bonuses at 6+ unit size. The latter in particular is what drives up the cost of the unit above what it's basic stats alone would indicate.

To piggyback off this thread, a question or two:

Ironguts. Outside of the Tyrant bodyguard battalion, is there a point in going heavy with them? I was planning on doing a small model count army of the more elite Gutbuster units, but Gluttons seem to be such a better bang for your buck, so that plan is kind of in limbo now and I may as well just do a more standard Mawtribe army, centered around the seemingly useful Tyrant/Irongut battalion(of which you only need 1 unit of Irongut.) Ironguts look like more consistent damage, but Gluttons have more synergies with other units, so at best its a wash, which means its probably best to stick with Gluttons. Is that an accurate assessment?

Do you think that the Tyrants Gutguard battalion is worth it? Seems useful to me as it can make your Tyrant more durable.

Agree with your assessment - Ironguts don't really bring enough benefit to justify inclusion, outside of Battalion requirements. Especially if you're running Bloodgullet or Meatfist who directly improve Gluttons. And then there's no point running Underguts either unless you're going fairly hard on Leadbelchers.

As for Battalions, I'm not convinced Tyrant's Gutguard is that great. For me, the only Gutbusters Battalion worth taking in its own merits is Butcher's Band. Put most of your army in it, and get some nice steady healing across the battle.

Generally speaking the gutguard battalion isn't worth it unless you are running a very niche build--for 40 more points you could just bring another tyrant.

Ironguts are absolutely worth it. They are 55 points each as opposed to a glutton at 40. For that they get a 4+ save and a much, much better weapon profile. For starters it's 2" range, meaning they can swing in two ranks, a considerable advantage. Then they have rend and a damage characteristic of 3.

A unit of four gluttons deals ~8 damage on average against a 5+ save. A unit of four ironguts deals ~14 and only needs half the frontage. If it weren't for model count being needed for objectives ironguts would replace gluttons entirely.

I know the better save helps, but I really worry about Ironguts cost per wound. If you're running a minimum unit or not much more you'll probably get away with it, but if you're basing your whole army around them I'd be really concerned about how many wounds you're bringing.

Could always counterbalance that somewhat by taking a blob of Gnoblars too of course.

Having used them extensively, I would say the key is MSU. A 4-man unit is already enough offense to beat the snot out of most things, and by having multiple units it allows damage to be spread out (and can be subsequently healed with the multiple aoe heal options ogors now have). Having, say, four units of four as the main line is 64 wounds on a 4+ save for 880 points, and each of those units is a massive offensive threat with high mobility because you can position them in a 2x2 square. Larger enemy units will have difficulty just getting models in range to attack.

The problem is you won't capture objectives that way. Thus, gluttons.

I got the three mortal wounds per ogre result by doing calculations while sleepy. Anyways 12 fatties who can heal surprisingly fast and inflict mortal wounds on anyone getting close sounds by no means pleasant, so I'd imagine that this sort of anvil will become mainstay in ogre armies.

I'll also take the discussion about gnoblars into this thread since if there will be any future big beautiful man enthusiasts in the future they will look here. What are some nice synergies that you think gnoblars have? I think running 60 as a screen in front of ironguts is probably a good idea, as they complement each other well.

Gnoblars are a pretty standard chaff unit. Hit em with the command ability from a tyrant and they're good to go.

What do you think of icebrow hunters and sabertooths btw? They are decently cheap and let you deepstrike charge reliably anywhere.

You said it. Being able to deep strike then charge with +3 to the roll is fantastic, even if the unit doing so isn't. I wouldn't bring sabertooths without a hunter though, both for the outflank and the bravery boost.

I think sabretooths are going to be good charge blockers like they were in fantasy. Beyond that I dont feel that a hunter or sabertooth are a scary enough deep strike unit.

Forcing a nasty shooter to target a 40-point unit because it's the only thing in melee seems pretty useful to me. Or eating a support character. Or grabbing an unguarded objective.

Paying for the hunter for 40 points surprise doesn't seem very efficient. However I'd imagine that our plus sized huntsman can remain behind and threaten enemy objectives and remain a nuisance to the opponent.

Indeed. His main damage is from shooting anyways, which he can do some of when he shows up.

The issue is though that he is quite squishy for his points, so the moment the enemy shooting unit gets rid of the tigers if our huntsman is in range he is toast. Maybe it would be better to bring in a larger tiger pack or have him wait outside of los and then on turn three "magnet" other sabertooth units in since the ability does have a tremendous range.

He really doesn't have to be all that effective. He just shows up and says "you have to deal with me" and the enemy must devote resources to do so.

Wouldn't a gorger do the same thing for much cheaper?

The hunter has the advantage that he can shoot, can bring sabertusks with the aforementioned +3 to charge, and is a hero which can use the generic command abilities (re-roll charge being particularly relevant). The gorger meanwhile is cheap, expendable, and straightforward. And it pleases me to no end that lists have a place for using one, the other, neither, or even both.

His shooting is really very good given everything else he brings too. It's not far off an Ironblaster (unless you have the Underguts command ability in play of course).

Bruh I might be reading a different profile but he does like one wound per turn on average. I suppose being able to toss one wound at the enemy backline is nice, but I think there are better places to spend all those points. I'll have to try him and see if my "magnet" tactic works.

Which models are you guys using for your tigers? The offical models look like toys 'r us knock offs.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Bruh I might be reading a different profile but he does like one wound per turn on average. I suppose being able to toss one wound at the enemy backline is nice, but I think there are better places to spend all those points. I'll have to try him and see if my "magnet" tactic works.

Which models are you guys using for your tigers? The offical models look like toys 'r us knock offs.

It lacks the rend, but the rest of the profile on the spear is almost the same as a cannon ball if you run.

Yeah, the rend is significant. But also Ironblasters aren't as powerful without additional buffs as people might think! It only does 1.4 wounds on average, vs 5+ or worse armour.

The hunter and ironblaster simply aren't comparable; they do different things. Its apples to oranges. Even with just shooting the ironblaster has far more range with its cannonball vs higher damage output with the scattershot. The hunter has short range but is deploying from reserve potentially near targets that were kept out of range/los from conventional shooting.

I absolutely agree they are very different units. My only point was that the Hunter's shooting is really rather good considering both his points and the other things he brings.

But which models do you use for the tigers?

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
But which models do you use for the tigers?

I don't know if anyone in this thread yet actually runs them. I sometimes play in GW store so I'd have to get the official models, and I don't like those enough, and I don't think they're a necessary unit anyway, so I don't plan to use them.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
But which models do you use for the tigers?

Most common alternative I see is the lord of the rings wild wargs.
They are cheap, plastic and only a fraction smaller.

If you go away from GW stuff though then reaper has tons of models to look through.

I have plenty of 'quadruped predator' models from tabletop RPGs to tap into. But nothing specific.

Back when charge blocking was a bigger thing I used Fenrisian Wolves from 40K as sabre standins.

Jackal90 wrote:

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
But which models do you use for the tigers?

Most common alternative I see is the lord of the rings wild wargs.
They are cheap, plastic and only a fraction smaller.

If you go away from GW stuff though then reaper has tons of models to look through.

Fell wargs are perfect for the jungle themed Ogors I am doing. Thanks for the tip!

Now one can, of course, use the ankle biters.

http://titan-forge.com/bloodsail-island/10-anklebiters

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Now one can, of course, use the ankle biters.

http://titan-forge.com/bloodsail-island/10-anklebiters

strongly considered those, but they appear to be metal, and I loathe metal models.

 Stux wrote:

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
But which models do you use for the tigers?

I don't know if anyone in this thread yet actually runs them. I sometimes play in GW store so I'd have to get the official models, and I don't like those enough, and I don't think they're a necessary unit anyway, so I don't plan to use them.

I am using Fenrisian wolves.

[img]http://imgur.com/gallery/14GWoQi[img]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hmm, how do I post an image?

Hey guys, i've been planning to start an ogre army, what are your pros and cons about ogres? At first look, they seem to have very good all-around statlines, but their armour save is probably the weakest.

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey guys, i've been planning to start an ogre army, what are your pros and cons about ogres? At first look, they seem to have very good all-around statlines, but their armour save is probably the weakest.

Battle shock is one of the biggest issues, but there are ways to mitigate it. Either running MSU or making use of Bully of the First Degree.

I think they're a pretty good all around army to be honest. Fairly killy, fairly durable, fairly mobile. If theres a weakness, it's simply lacking any broken combos that some other armies can put together. Too balanced would be another way of phrasing that!

"Con" would be that its a well-balanced battletome, so an uphill matchup against B-tier and A-tier will crush you.

Actual cons would be low armor saves only partly mitigated by wounds count, and low rend. Ogors do very well against non-specialized enemies because they deal a lot of damage and can also take a good chunk of damage (an ogor with 3 wounds on him still fights at 100%). But glass-cannon enemies can overwhelm your wounds count and the potency of your offense is wasted on squishy stuff. Meanwhile high-save enemies can outlast you through attrition because your armor isn't good for preventing damage outright.

Model count for objectives may seem like it is a potential issue, but with the allegiance counting monsters as 10 and everyone else as 2 that concern is considerably reduced. Ogors also tend to clear swarms very quickly.

Although they have low rend, I should add they have quite a few sources of mortal wounds. You'll generally do 1 or 2 for every charge you make in the game.

They don't have any reliable MW generation though. A couple of MW on the charge is nice but really just puts a dent in things. Like most battletomes Ogors do not have reasonable means to consistently keep dealing MWs round to round.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They don't have any reliable MW generation though. A couple of MW on the charge is nice but really just puts a dent in things. Like most battletomes Ogors do not have reasonable means to consistently keep dealing MWs round to round.

I've been having a lot of success with Fiery Whirlwind vs Mortex Guard too though.

That is definitely a good tool to have around. All three firebelly spells are pretty dam good.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
That is definitely a good tool to have around. All three firebelly spells are pretty dam good.

Yes, I'm considering getting a second one to access Billowing Ash at the same time. Possibly with a Balewind Vortex to extend the coverage.

Hi.

I am considering starting with AoS. I still have some Ogre models from warhammer fantasy that I never asembeled. I think 6 or 12 ogres, and the cannon. 2 riders.

What does a typical Ogre list look like? How many models? I have tryed to read uo on the rules on them and I am having a hard time finding an angle to build them. I have bo baseline to consider how good or bad a unit like the tyrant or basic ogre is. From what I can tell by the rules of AoS they have a large move, then you charge (in the same turn?) and hooefully your ogres eat them before they kill you.

They seem naturally mobile. And the riders seems to hit like nothing I have ever seens. (In fantasy 2 riders in the flank spelt doom fot most units.)

The aim is a 2000 point list.

It is starting these or starting sigmarites.

Generally speaking you'll want to focus on either Gutbuster models or Beastclaw models. You can absolutely mix and match in the same list, but all the tribes favour one or the other.

If you go Gutbusters, your decision will then be shooty focused or melee focused.

I decided to go shooty, and therefore chose Underguts. This is my current 2k list:



The main trick this list pulls is have the Tyrant accompany the Ironblasters, and use the command ability every turn to give them all an extra shot using the Underguts command ability, and then also give them +1 to hit versus leaders and monsters with the relic. The shooting is really rather brutal! This is also the reason the list really wants a battalion, because you cant take the Trophy Rack without getting a second relic.

Spells can be changed up. I really like Fiery Whirlwind vs armies with lots of models and good saves, but Billowing Ash is extremely good versus other shooty armies (it works in melee too, but at range is where you'll most need protecting). For the Butcher, I really want to give Blubbergrub Stench a go what with having 4 Ironblasters, but i haven't run it yet. Huge potential, but its risky taking a spell that will only do anything on specific friendly units, especially when Ribcracker is just always very good.

So you have :

4 leader models
12 ogre troop models
4 Artilery pieces.

Do Gluttons have more models in their builds? I think 20 models sounded a bit small for 2000 points. Although the ease to paint sounds nice.

Your army seems very focused on one thing. I think as a new player I should focus on something more generic. (Big squads + spell buggs perhaps?)

How does battalions work in AoS? And how do command points work? I know them from 40K. Can you use them on stragaems and/or buying more magic items here as well?

Its 29 models, I think you're missing the 6 gluttons, or some of the 12 Leadbelchers, and the Ironguts are a unit of 4, not a leader.

Being focused on one thing is sort of what makes a list strong in this game to be honest! But focusing on Gluttons is absolutely valid. Look up Meatfist or Bloodgullet tribes (there's a short write up on both in the very first post in this thread).

Battalion in AoS are a completely different thing to 40k, forget 40k hah. In Age of Sigmar, Battalions are specific collections of units that the army has access to. You pay points for the Battalion itself, and have to take the specified units in it. In exchange, you get a few benefits: you get an extra cp at the start of the game, you get an extra free relic, you deploy all models in the Battalion as one drop (making it more likely to go first) and the Battalion gets access to some special ability.

Mentioning CP, note that in Sigmar CP are much more restricted than 40k, but you'll have less things to spend them on so it works out ok usually! There's no command reroll for instance, it just isnt a thing. You just get 1 cp each turn (you can save them up over turns if you want), and that's often it. Battalions give you an extra 1, and you can also purchase extra CP for 50 points each (which is usually not worth it, but it's nice to have the option!).

So the Battalion I took is called Butcher's Band. It costs 140pts (on top of the models in it), and must contain a Butcher, a unit of Ironguts, 1 to 3 units of Leadbelchers, and 1 to 3 units of Gluttons. I get the extra CP and relic (allowing me to take the Trophy Rack on my Tyrant - the extra relic doesnt have to be used on a model in the Battalion), and the Battalion ability for this specific Battalion is this:

At the start of your hero phase, you can heal 1 wound allocated to each friendly unit from this battalion that is wholly within 12" of the BUTCHER from this battalion.

Which is fairly decent. Ogors have a bunch of other Battalion, but I think this is pretty much the best they have (certainly for Gutbusters, I'm less familiar with Beastclaws). It would also work well with a Glutton focused list, so consider using it!

Ogres is one of the armies which really rewards converting, so if you're good with greenstuff 1k points is equivalent to three boxes of gluttons converted to various units.

I used to love converting. But later on I wanne save time. The best way to convert is to take parts from other things and glue them on with as little greenstuff as possible.

I have an old tyrant model I tryed to convert up. I can fibish that.

Likevice I can proxy the butchers. Just add an apron. Some cooking/butcher implements

I am a bit unsure how to convert the big pot butcher, or firebelly.

The elites (been there done that) can be made with tyranid parts. They just have some chaos mutations.

I REALLY do not want to paint globlars. I do not want to have them on the list. I understand screening and tarpitting can be good. (Is there some way to kongaline them and have 2" reach weapons attack from behind.)

Agreed on Gnoblars. I think they are somewhat decent. Not the best horse by a long way (though being able to make them immune to battle shock is pretty rad), but this is an edition that really incentivised hordes, so they should do a lot of work for their cost. But I did not get into Ogors to paint 60 goblins! And I think the army can do just fine without them.

I'm not really sold on the Slaughtermaster compared to a normal Butcher so I wouldn't worry too much there.

I could imagine 2 units of 12 ogres as my core. Preferably buffing them with some mages. I looked over the spells, and they seemed descent enough.

Being fast and having redundancy means I do not colapse once onenof them falls.

Shooting seems like a specialised type of list. Trying to dictate when and where I attack seems better.

Then Ibprobably would need some fast moving units so I do not get outmanovered. The beast riders seema good at being where I need to be and hit glass cannon backline units. Also suporting the ogre units.

I'd actually call the shooty list the more generalist, as Leadbelchers and Ironblasters are both actually alright in melee too! Ironblasters are also really fast.

But anyway, bare in mind that for 2k points you need to bring 3 battleline units (sort of Sigmar equivalent of Troops - no bonus on holding objectives, but you need a minimum of them). Your 2 Ogor Glutton units gives you 2, so you need another. Your battleline options depend on your general though. If you take a Tyrant, then Leadbelchers and Ironguts become battleine. If you take a Frostlord then you can have Mournfangs as battleline, etc.

Yeah, fufulling the bare minimum I am not as worried about. But I need some minimum to unlock more bonuses?

Does having more battalions give me more CP or something?

What I like about the ogres is that the battleline units seems to be a good meats and potatoes unit, as opposed to a tax you need to pay.

Ledbelchers seems a bit bad? You pay exstra for the shooting? But once you are looked in combat you cab not shoot any more. Ogre wants to get the charge for the possabilaty for mortal wounds? You do not want the eneny to come to you.

That being said having versatilaty and options wheb you play. Adopting to what your opponent is doing. But is the ogre way? I thought they where a bit exspensive for the option. (Although the 18" range might help.)

First off, Leadbelchers are the same price as Gluttons. 80pts for 2, vs 120pts for 3. You aren't paying extra for shooting, you are sacrificing a small amount of melee ability for it (though you gain rend -1).

Second, you can still shoot while in melee in Sigmar, but you have to shoot at the unit you are in melee with. But you dont lose shooting for being engaged.

The big thing Gluttons have is if you are Meatfist or Bloodgullet then they have Allegiance abilities that specifically buff Gluttons in some way, and these abilities dont improve Leadbelchers.

It generally wont be viable to take 2 Battalions in the same army. There's no rule preventing it, but the costs and requirements are just a bit prohibitive. Some armies it's easier, but I really dont see a use case for it in Ogors.

You would get 1 extra CP for each Battalion (and 1 extra relic for each one), but work out what you actually need that CP for. CP uses for Ogors are quite limited. And remember if you really want another cp you always have the option of just buying it instead of taking another Battalion.

 Niiai wrote:


Ledbelchers seems a bit bad? You pay exstra for the shooting? But once you are looked in combat you cab not shoot any more. Ogre wants to get the charge for the possabilaty for mortal wounds? You do not want the eneny to come to you.
(Although the 18" range might help.)

Well in AoS thats not how it works, you can shoot while in combat (as long as its at the same unit you are in combat with) and you are not paying extra at all, its 2 vs 3, if you take 3 then its the same price. Leadbelchers IMO are one of the better units in the book.

You can easing move>shoot>move>shoot>melee>shoot>melee>repeat and have 0 problems.

AoS has a lot more tricks in the movement/shooting phase than 40k does, its going to take a few games to get use to it

Well that changes a bit then. So you are trading 1 attack and the hit twice on 6 for rend 1 and the abilaty to shoot. That does not seem so bad.

They are exspensive to collect though... :-(

How do regular ogors have the edge? The one batallion lets everyone have an exstra attack for one turn? That seems good. (An exstra attack for all weapons, including the bite?)

I really enjoy the charge into mortal wound rule. Regulat ogors can re-toll the charge, so that is something. Units of 8+ and big monsters can really put on wounds with a charge of 7, that is 3 mortal wounds.

Regular Ogors have the edge if you are Meatfist or Bloodgullet and use their allegiance abilities. Bloodgullet one is much better (reroll Glutton wound rolls while in range of a Butcher), but overall the allegiance is only going to be worth it if you run two Butchers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know what Battalion you are referring to. Do you instead mean the Meatfist Allegiance command ability for an extra gulping bite? It's ok, but nowhere near as strong as the Bloodgullet command ability - but that needs a Butcher nearby so there is some tradeoff.

Remember these are both command abilities, so require CP to use. If you're running a big unit of Gluttons it will also usually be worth it to spend a cp at the start of the battle on Bully of the First Degree (Tyrants always have this ability). What it does is deals d3 mortal wounds to a friendly unit, but that unit is immune to battle shock for the whole game - and on bravery 6 outside of melee Ogors are really vulnerable to battle shock when in larger units.

If I do bloodgullet or meatfists can I put the armour or the giant cleaver, the artefacts, on a hero on one of the big beasts?

I supose the army would need 4 heroes.

1 ogre tyrant general
1 big monster that can hold the artefact
2 butchers for buffing
2 groups of ogors to buff
1 more battleline

Some mobile cats to catch objective holders and try to get countercharges. Would something like that work?

Yes, you can give the relic to a Frostlord or Huskard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like this for 2k:

Yeah thank you.

I bought the armybook today. I will look at it.

I must say I keep fantasising about getting tramepling cgarges with mortal wounds. That would need groups of 8 or preferably 12 so I do not loose the 4+ mortal wounds to ranged attacks. Or I would need Monsters.

Ogre Gluttons can re-roll the charge so they are good candidates for it. (I am looking for other sources or-reroll charges to get that number up.)

Stonehorn and Thundertursks also seem very good for getting the mortal wounds. I need to do some math if it is worth buying the base creature, or buying the hero upgraded version.

Am I to assume that heroes can get a look out sir roll or similar to save heroes from ranged weapons? And that heroes on monsters do not? Can monsters actually survive through the first round in AoS? I old warhammer fantasy Cannonball shots (who many armies had) would generally kill the big beasties turn 1.

The Bloodgullet Mawtribe seems good, the apeal is that you essential double up on wizards. Buying 2 butchers means you can atempt to cast 4 spells, and since most of the spells have a treshhold of 7 you can not relly to get spells through.

Meatfists seems good for the aditional trampling charge bonus. And the Gut-plate of Ghur on a Frostlord on Stonehorn.

Boulderhead seems to offer little, although the Brand of the Svard is nice. It is probably better if you go all monsters. My wallet can not survive that, and transporattion of models would be hard.

The undergutt has it's things going, but the playstyle does not apeal to me. Thunderbellies and Witerbite both want priests with them, and they are build around Mournfangs packs (that are good) or Sabres of Yeties, but I do not like it.

I will tink a bit about it. Big units of ogree boosted by a spell (bloodgullet) seems also very good. But 2 full groups of Gluttons are 800 points, two fifths of the whole 2000 points.

I also need to do some math of survivabilaty when it comes to saves.Stonehorn, Gluttons/Ledbelchers and Mournfang packs all seem to be the most survivable.

Do the gluttons get a discount? Why do 12 cost 400?

 Niiai wrote:
Do the gluttons get a discount? Why do 12 cost 400?

Yes, it's very common in Sigmar to get a discount. Not every unit, but many of them. If you look at the point list in the back of your battletome, you'll see Gluttons listed as 120/400. That means 120 for each multiple of the minimum unit size, and then 400 total for max size.

It also means theres really not much point at stopping at 9 Gluttons in a unit, as you get the next 3 for the price of 1 model.

Hey, i've got a quick rules question about ogres iron fist, so if a unit armed with iron fist gets attacked with a rend more than ogres armour save, can I still roll for those mortal wounds?

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey, i've got a quick rules question about ogres iron fist, so if a unit armed with iron fist gets attacked with a rend more than ogres armour save, can I still roll for those mortal wounds?

Yes, you still make the roll. You technically always still make rolls even if they are impossible to pass, though players obviously usually dont bother.

It isnt possible to pass the save, but you may still cause mortal wounds.

Okay thanks, now i'm torn between making a choises for either a pair of clubs or iron fist, lol. I'll have to do some math which one does more damage..

 Spreelock wrote:
Okay thanks, now i'm torn between making a choises for either a pair of clubs or iron fist, lol. I'll have to do some math which one does more damage..

Its difficult question, which we did discuss earlier in the thread.

Basically, you will not get many mortal wounds per dead Ogor. But against the right opponent a few mortal wounds can go a long way, compared to more normal attacks hitting.

There's no easy answer. Personally I favour paired blades, but I know others swear by iron fists.

I have not read the deployment rules for AoS yet.

But with the thunder tribe and the move d6 after deployment can we not garantee a first turn charge with the mournfangs? Deploy 12 in on an 48" table. Move 1d6 from formation. Move 9 + 2 from hungry. Run 1d6. (Have one of the models within 12" from an edge). Charge 2d6 + 1 from the banner.

That is a total of 24 + 4d6 range. If you deolpy the mournfangs last you cab have a huge threath range.

Thoughts?

How are you getting the d6 move after deployment?

Assuming that's correct for a moment, you'll normally have 24" of no man's land to cross to get to the enemy deployment zone. 12" +4d6 is an average of 26". So more often than not you will get a first turn charge IF the enemy is deployed on or very close to the line of their deployment zone, and there isnt intervening terrain blocking the path.

Its certainly not guaranteed, and only particularly relevant if you get first turn. It's still very good, but I'm not sure it's worth giving up the benefits of Bloodgullet, especially if you are wanting to run all those Gluttons still.

No, I am just theorising all angels before I buy.

The Jorlbad formation gives stonehorns and mournfangs 1d6 move at the start of the game.

On an oggre you pay 40 for 4 wounds with a 5+ save. On mournfangs you pay 70 for 6 wounds with a 4+ save and posabilaty of the leadbelcher weapons. You also get 4 attacks from the cat.

Ah yes, the Battalion. It's a pretty good trick if you want to go heavy on Mournfangs certainly!

Only the unit leader gets a pistol by the way, the rest of the unit only have melee weapons.

I have noot loked at the pistol that much. I need to do some math breakdowns.

 Niiai wrote:
I have noot loked at the pistol that much. I need to do some math breakdowns.

Ok I thought that was what you were referring to by "possibility of Leadbelcher weapons".

I tryed to make the Eurlbad battalion work. On the theory that mortal wounds are good. (A mortal wound on a 6 sounds just sick. A singel mournfang unit has 7 attacks, netting at least 1 mortal wound. In particular longside the trampling charge rule that the behemots have, doing around 3 mortal wounds when they charge. The mortal wounds add up fast.)

How ever, I really underestimate how 'few' things you can get in a list in AoS as opposed to 40K.

This ate up all of my points at 2000 points. It is very hard to combine a battalion and both have a mix of Beastclaw Raiders and regular Ogors. I am happy with the list, but it is not what I want to play. I am also really falling in love with the frostlord on Stonehorn. 400 point is a lot. But 3+ and additional 5+++ is very good.

It's just an extremely Elite army, and doubly so if you go pure Beastriders.

I'd drop the 3rd Mournfang Pack. Maybe the Frostlord too. They are fantastic, but you require the other two big beasts for the Battalion. Spend the points on Gluttons and/or Frostsabres. Or a Firebelly, some magic would be very useful, including for unbinding.

You're probably aware already, but just to be sure from what you said - Mournfangs are not monsters, and so only do Mortal wounds on a 6 for trampling charge.

I corrected some mistakes on the list.

Yes, I know Mournfangs are not monsters. But if they can make a 7 charge, 1 of them are a mortal wound from trampling charge. And when all 4 kitties with riders attak under Eurlbad that is an additional 4 mortal wound. Asuming the opponent does not kille them all.

The 3 big beasts do 3 mortal wounds when they charge. Quite good.

I am 'flicking' around with the points. But it is hard to get a use out of 2 artifacts and 2 mounted traits. It needs 2 heroes on beasts, and a battalion. Perhaps I should focus on not trying to achieve both.

Here is a list with more of a compromise. Bloodgullet for exstra spells (but only 1 wizard, so perhaps not the best use.) Stil using the eurlbad for mortal wounds. Has that big unit of ogre to dish out a lot of damage.

Sources of mortal wounds: The wizards magic missile, mortal wounds from Eurlbad and the charges from the 2 monsters and the unit of ogre.



Can drop the last unit of mournfangs for 1 more butcher perhaps, to get 2 more spells in there.

Honestly it's not a bad list at all, just very specialised.

We only have 2 sources for priestst, right? The command trait and the mammuth (thunder thing)?

The mammuth has some plusses if he is around other mamuts. Are those plusses on his two spesific prayers, or every prayer he casts?

 Niiai wrote:
We only have 2 sources for priestst, right? The command trait and the mammuth (thunder thing)?

The mammuth has some plusses if he is around other mamuts. Are those plusses on his two spesific prayers, or every prayer he casts?

Correct, though Priests aren't really that important. A prayer is just an ability you have to roll for. Wizards on the other hand are able to unbind enemy spells, so generally have a lot more utility.

The bonus for having other Thundertusks nearby applies to all prayers that the Huskard performs.

What are the mlign sorcery and different realms? Are there rtefcts there to use?

What about this army? It might be a bit 'spammy'?

I like that I have a big monster in the frostlord. And a lott of damage on the kitties with mortal wounds. I also miss not having magic and a nice BIG group of gluttons. (Although people on the internett seems to love the Ironguts as a damage dealer. But mortal wounds is nice as well, no?)

You can pick a realm of origin, and that allows access to the artefacts of that realm, and realm specific spells. However, your first artefact for Ogors must still be your sub faction artefact (assuming you have a sub faction) so you can only access these artefacts if you have a Battalion to get another artefact. There are some decent ones, but honestly the best Ogor ones are better generally anyway.

As for Malign Sorcery, Ogors dont have their own Endless Spells so you'd just be looking at the generic ones. The Cogs are good but expensive. The Bridge is pretty good, but also pretty expensive. I like Balewind Vortex, essentially a free cast if you succeed, then the extra range and protection is great. Most of the rest are trash. Aethervoid Pendulum is kind of ok, as the opponent cant redirect it and it's decent damage.

Theres nothing wrong with playing a list that is just the big monsters and Mournfangs, they are good units. But it is a skew list, and yeah for an initial army you may want to start with something more balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, you also should look at getting a Great Mawpot. They're free to include in your army.

To be clear, each army can pick a realm of origin, which grants them access to two artifact charts specific to that realm.

Each match can have a realm the battle is taking place in, granting access to the seven spells specific to that realm for all wizards in the battle regardless of what realm their army came from.

An army does not get to use the realm-specific spells like they would a lore in their battletome.

I think realms rules are the worst part of sigmar. Universal spells/artifacts mean balance is not going to happen as battletomes are assuredly not built with them in mind. I've never played a game with them, and I never will.

They aren't built with double-turns in mind either, if we want to start at the worse end.

Lets not get into that in this post, this is about Mawtribes, there is already a place for that talk

I have to ask, is it worth making the stonehorn a hero? It is an aditional 100 points, an icrease in 33%. It seems very exspensive.

Well it gives you an improved save (3+ instead of 4+ is a big deal) an improved combat profile (the frostlord's spear is extremely potent), and access to a mount trait + artifact. It is the latter that makes a difference; one does not sink 400 points into a hero if they aren't going to get an artifact and/or trait.

The huskard on stonehorn is cheaper, but really he's for battalion unlocks because the huskard on thundertusk is more tactically valuable.

The Frostlord on Stonehorn is the first monster you should build. Then you should build a second one. The unit is just that good. When tacking on artifacts and mount traits, these things become beastly.

But 2 stonehorns are also beasts. Pluss 200 points in units.

 Niiai wrote:
But 2 stonehorns are also beasts. Pluss 200 points in units.

See NinthMuskateer's comment. The extra points is worth the upgrades. 4+ saves don't get much mileage, and the Frostlord's spear never degrades. Adding the ability to take artifacts tips the scale further.

I have to ask. On a group of gluttons can you have both banners in a group of 6 gluttons?

'STANDARD BEARERS: 1 in every 6 models
in this unit can be a Beast Skull Bearer, and 1
in every 6 models in this unit can be a Tribal
Banner Bearer'

 Niiai wrote:
I have to ask. On a group of gluttons can you have both banners in a group of 6 gluttons?

'STANDARD BEARERS: 1 in every 6 models
in this unit can be a Beast Skull Bearer, and 1
in every 6 models in this unit can be a Tribal
Banner Bearer'

Yes

Oh... I need some arm changes then... :-(

 Niiai wrote:
Oh... I need some arm changes then... :-(

It's also debated that they can be the same model. Some people even think the same model can be the champion, bellower, and both banners.

The arguments get very linguistically nitpicky. But the gist is that a model being one thing isnt necessarily mutually exclusive with the same model being another thing.

This is an issue across most armies in the game, and it would be really helpful if GW could FAQ it.

It depends on the wording for the unit. There is generally a gentleman's agreement that RAI no single model is supposed to be more than just one banner/music/leader. This extends back to AoS 1st ed when, RAW, every model in most units could have music and banner without even needing to be modelled as such.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It depends on the wording for the unit. There is generally a gentleman's agreement that RAI no single model is supposed to be more than just one banner/music/leader. This extends back to AoS 1st ed when, RAW, every model in most units could have music and banner without even needing to be modelled as such.

Agreed, and I do follow this myself.

But I find it bizarre that after all this time there hasn't been an FAQ to confirm it.

Some areas of AoS rules still operate completely off RAI. For example, there are no rules allowing for some models in an attacking unit to target one enemy while other models target a different enemy. The only rules for splitting between targets come from models with more than one attack.

There is also a rule saying that once a wound is allocated to a model they must continue to be allocated to that model until it is slain. This means that even should the model be healed to full all damage must still be allocated specifically to that model. A restriction that I suspect everyone justifiably ignores.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Well the first part what you said is wrong as the rules do say you can pick any unit(s).

PICKING TARGETS
When a unit shoots or fights, you
must first pick the target unit(s) for
all of the weapons it is using, before
any of the attacks with the weapons
are resolved. Only enemy units can
be chosen as the target for an attack.

So you can pick units for all of its weapons, every model has a weapon or more, meaning you can pick every weapon to fight a different unit if you wanted too.

Just b.c its not written (Each and every weapon that each and every model is arm with may choose any unit it is eligible to may do so) doesn't mean its not written in a way we understand that we still can do that.

Yes, that is exactly what I mean by RAI.

I am stil quite new to AoS, so I have tryed to gather 3rd hand information on strategies. After looking on some lists by the handle Doom & Darknes I have grown fond of the Frost Sabre:

Initially because it is our cheapest units, and it is quite long. This makes for good 2 model units for 40 point for denying deep striking, and 4 man units for 80 point can make screens. (Closest competition are 20 man groups of gnoblars, but they are slow, and ogers are fast.)

But I was really fasinated by their deepstrike abilaties with the hunter:

1. Battalion Skal: Gives them +1 to charge.

2. Their Masters Voice's: Get + 3 to charge if a hunter is close.

3. Lead the Skal: Command abillaty, gives the Frost Sabres +1 attack characteristick (each Sabre gets up to 4 attacks.)

4. Winterbite Mawtribe: Add 1 to wound rolls for Sabres (and Yhetees) that are whole within 12. (Wounding on 2+.)

5. Howl of the Wild: Command abillaty makes 1 unit of Sabres or Yeeties wholy within 12 of a hero to make them fight first.

6. Lastly the battalion makes for a very low drop, something that usually punishes small units for 40 points that should grab objectives.

Could any of this be worth it in Ogre lists? Sabres are only damage 1.

With everything adding up we would end up with Sabres only need to charge 4+ (reliable enough) and attacking on A4 H4+ W2+ R-1 D1. You fight first, if your cats survive you can attack first in the next herophase.

12 Sabres + 1 hunter is 360 points. In addition you have the tax of Skal battalion (100 points) and what else you want.

In a 2000 point list spending 820 points on 2 of this would severyly make your opponents deployment difficult.

Also, lastly, if I use Howl of the Wild and it is my turn can I fight with one sabre unit and then the 'regular' one before my opponent gets to fight with a unit?

I recon if I can spend 80 point on as a chaff line it will be difficult for my opponent to get a first strike on my units with his chaff line killed and mine hiding behind mine.

You can definitely make some good murdersabres with the new tome if you know what you're doing. Something to keep in mind is many people's opinions may be influenced by the past state of sabres; they were a TERRIBLE unit for a long time.

So this came from the Ogor Facebook group.

From what I can see it does have some perks.

It comes with a build in screen (3 gnoblars) and you can shoot twice with it. The cat and all 3 models can be spread out and grab 3 objects off one unit. Seems pretty unique. Also, the boby trap is very well worded. 2+ is not bad.

So for 160 points you can threaten 3 objectives. Nice! It is not very killy.

I have some rule questions, is it one deployment, or do you deploy it as 1, 2 or 3? I suppose it can not be in the Skal battlion as it refers to the unit name and not the keyword.

It specifically says they are separate units so they are two drops to deploy.

You cannot use them in the Skal Battalion.

You're not really threatening objectives if you die to anything more than a stiff wind.

Overall it looks ok for the points though! The trap is neat.

Threatening objectives with even one model is still threatening objectives. Quite often the game is not about how difficult a unit is to kill, but simply making your opponent do it. Almost any spell/attack/ability used to kill 3 gnoblars could have been better spent doing something else, for example.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Threatening objectives with even one model is still threatening objectives. Quite often the game is not about how difficult a unit is to kill, but simply making your opponent do it. Almost any spell/attack/ability used to kill 3 gnoblars could have been better spent doing something else, for example.

Ok. I'm not saying it's terrible. But you really need to keep the Gnoblars by the Ogor or you're halving his shooting. If you want to just cover objectives just get 4 units of Frostsabres for the same price.

His shooting is average less than one damage even before saves, I'm far more interested in area coverage than doubling that. This guy brings three outflanking units in for 160, while they aren't good that can stand there and be like 'look at me, I got your objective, you have to waste your time killing me' which in the context of Mawtribes is an extremely useful function I must pay more points to get conventionally. Besides, the gnoblars are there to set the trap, anything after that is gravy!

Yeah that's fair.

As I say, my initial assessment was that the overall package is ok.

I do plan to get him, it's a cool model.

I agree, it is definitely a cool model.

What models are people using for cats? After realising how many I wanted the easiest for me was to use count as chaos warhounds. They are relativly cheap mofels and they come with the right bases.

I am making 30 of the things. Ideally I think I want 10 more, but I need to start somewhere.

 Niiai wrote:
What models are people using for cats? After realising how many I wanted the easiest for me was to use count as chaos warhounds. They are relativly cheap mofels and they come with the right bases.

I am making 30 of the things. Ideally I think I want 10 more, but I need to start somewhere.

I've seen heavy use of Space Wolf Fenris Wolves and LotR Wargs. Hobbit wolves are better sculpts but more expensive. LotR Wargs are about half the price and have a bit more of a feline face.

Wargs are the best in my opinion as their relatively patchy fur matches the patchy fur of the Thundertusk/Stonehorn.

With the new Battletome, I was thinking of bringing over my Ogres from Fantasy depending how it might go..
Aside from all having to come off squares..
I have all the units below, and I would aim to use as many as possible (and not buying other things at all - except maybe a ogre sized character extra etc, so no big monsters).

Tyrant x2 (one of each build - 2hw, double hand weapon).
Slaughter/Butcher x2 (possibly add a Firebelly. Don’t have but there is a slot in my foam for him).
Army BSB.
8 bulls, 8 bulls, 8 ironguts, 4 mournfang (all with banners/mus)
6 leadbelchers, ironblaster, scraplauncher, 50 gnoblars.

What would this sort of thing look like? I don’t really want to delve in, if they are not really gonna work without the stonehorn/thundertusk that I imagine most people use.
But wanted an idea before I go in on the book or anything.

(Also, if anyone knows. Are they on rounds the same size as their old squares? I know a lot of stuff went bigger bases to AoS)

You dont need the monsters to make a strong list, going Gutbuster heavy is totally valid. Probably run as Bloodgullet with your 2 Butchers.

Bulls are called Gluttons now. They come in multiples of 3, so you wont be able to use all 16, but close. In big units they're pretty good! Ironguts are good too, and come un multiples of 4 so you can use all of those. Overall youd have a pretty decent army.

Here's a basic list at 2k using just the models you have:


++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Destruction - Ogor Mawtribes) [2,000pts] ++

+ Leader +

Butcher [140pts]

Slaughtermaster [140pts]

Tyrant [160pts]: General

+ Battleline +

Ironguts [220pts]: 4 Ironguts

Ironguts [220pts]: 4 Ironguts

Leadbelchers [240pts]: 3x 2 Leadbelchers

Ogor Gluttons [400pts]: 4x 3 Ogor Gluttons

+ Other +

Gnoblars [200pts]: 2x 20 Gnoblars

Mournfang Pack [280pts]: 2x 2 Mournfang Pack

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

++ Total: [2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Awesome, exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for!
My other armies I don’t think I could translate into AoS (Empire too much has gone or notviable, VC is mostly basing to be fair), so it is great to know that these could find a new use here.

Everything is mostly unpainted, so I can also work on the relevant models also which is handy.
I shall have to have a look through the book and see what I think then!
Thanks for the info Stux

Danny76 wrote:
Awesome, exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for!
My other armies I don’t think I could translate into AoS (Empire too much has gone or notviable, VC is mostly basing to be fair), so it is great to know that these could find a new use here.

Everything is mostly unpainted, so I can also work on the relevant models also which is handy.
I shall have to have a look through the book and see what I think then!
Thanks for the info Stux

No problem!

When checking out the book, have a look at the Gutbuster Battalions too. You have the models to make most of them, so that opens up some other list building avenues.

Mawtribes is a pretty well-made battletome. Every unit is useful (grot scraplauncher is a bit of a dud in the larger context but even so it isn't -bad-) and the battalions aren't so good that you are obligated to bring them but not so bad that you are overtly punished for using them (mostly). I would say one of the big advantages of gutbuster battalions is deployment; they consolidate a good number of units into one drop to help secure second turn.

If I group up enough enough thundertusks, will a huskars prayer work even if I roll a 1? So 4 huskars garantes 4 prayers?

 Niiai wrote:
If I group up enough enough thundertusks, will a huskars prayer work even if I roll a 1? So 4 huskars garantes 4 prayers?

A 1 is always a fail regardless of modifiers.

Also, you can only use each prayer once per turn, and only a couple of them are actually any good.

Incorrect; a hit, wound, or save roll of 1 is always a fail. A prayer roll is none of those and can succeed on a 1.

I think there are some good there. Adding 1 to wound rolls, + 3 to movement is very nice. The mortal wound and heql 1d3 are OK. I suppose yetee regenration is good as well if you are into yhetee club.

A hungry Frostlord in boulderhead already moves 15". Give him +3 to move and you are on 18". That seems like a good chance to get a first turn charge. Add inn the black clatterhorn and + 1 to wound and you got a damage machine.

If you really wanne go crazy ad the gryph feather and now you are 19 movement and flying. But no etherial amulet, so probably not worth it.

Ok, but you arent taking 4 Huskards and a Frostlord. Not at 2k anyway, given you also need Battleline!

It would not nessaseraly have to be huskards. You just need one huskar per prayer you wanne go off, and 4 thundertusks total. Thundertusks can be battleline.

Considering how much better stonehorns are then thundertusks it is probably a pipedream, but those shooting attacks could work in the right list.

 Niiai wrote:
It would not nessaseraly have to be huskards. You just need one huskar per prayer you wanne go off, and 4 thundertusks total. Thundertusks can be battleline.

Considering how much better stonehorns are then thundertusks it is probably a pipedream, but those shooting attacks could work in the right list.

Fair enough, yeah its technically doable.

What do people tink about the Oger Tyrant? He seems imcredebly exspensive for 160 point. He is less good then 2 ironguts in combat and they would cost 88 points.

 Niiai wrote:
What do people tink about the Oger Tyrant? He seems imcredebly exspensive for 160 point. He is less good then 2 ironguts in combat and they would cost 88 points.

He makes your Ironguts Battleline. That alone is fantastic.

He also makes Leadbelchers (4+ models) Battleline, has a useful command ability, and has access to useful unique relics (Gruesome Trophy Rack especially).

Running Undetguts, I find him absolutely mandatory. If you're planning to run 3 units of Gluttons and dont particularly want the Trophy Rack, sure skip him.

So, the way the charge rules are written you have to finish a charge move half an inch from one of the units you are charging.

I was thinking in an underguts list you can wrap a Huskard on Thundertusk with Alvagr Ancient in 6 leadbelchers. Just keep walking up and blast away. If the opponent wants to charge in they need to do some fancy dancing or they will get clubbered by the leadbelchers. The leadbelchers are a descent enough threat and the huskard on thundertusk seems nice as long as he is not in close combat.

As the leadbelchers base is under 2" the opponent would need to be 3" close to the Alvagr Ancient to slow them down.

The rest of the list would have to feature a lot of shooting to keep thinning the opponent into fight sieze bits. Probably with gnoblar scraplaunchers vs hordes (along the gnoblar blastkeg artefact and the Frost-wreathed ice) and the throphy rack ironblaster trick vs monsters. Have 18 range leadbelchers and blast away thinning up the opponent.

If you move Leadbelchers they lose nearly half their damage output. You really want them to stay put.

Also, an optimised list will not be scared of them in melee at all honestly. Trust me, I use Leadbelchers a lot.

The first part you say makes little sence. Shurly you will want to move them within range or they have no damag output?

 Niiai wrote:
The first part you say makes little sence. Shurly you will want to move them within range or they have no damag output?

Ok, sometimes you need to move them yes. But you might surprised how little you need to do it. Will obviously depend on matchup and mission. My last game, by my first shooting phase they had plenty of decent targets within 18" without moving.

Well then you do not move. The Huskar might not have good targets always but still, sounds nice in my mind. Has a 50% chance of getting the

Leadbelchers seems descent enough in combat. 2, 3+, 3+ rend 1, 2 damage attacks. Then you need to suffer attacks from them if you want to charge them. If you do not charge them the leadbelchers stand stil and shoot 6d6 shooting attacks. Sounds nice. Also, the huskard who is a bit trash in combat is safe.

I actually think the undertribe leadbelcher is a very fine good all around unit for 40 points. Of course you need a critical mass of shooting before it gets some legs.

The problem with belchers usually is that you have a lot of bad choises. To not get wiped out in combat you move in for the charge. And in doing so you go from d6 to d3 shots. But with the Alvagr Ancient you can have your cake and eat it too.

Theres no overwatch in Sigmar, you dont get shot for charging them.

On the other hand you can still shoot while in melee, you just need to target an enemy you are in melee with.

Stux why are you bringing up overwatch?

 Niiai wrote:
Stux why are you bringing up overwatch?

Because what you said made it sound like you thought the enemy would be shot if they charged the Leadbelchers. Apologies if I misunderstood that.

I was talking about how the Alvagr Ancient would make who ever charges the leadbelchers first take one round of combat from the leadbelchers before they get to fight.

 Niiai wrote:
What do people tink about the Oger Tyrant? He seems imcredebly exspensive for 160 point. He is less good then 2 ironguts in combat and they would cost 88 points.

Well...

Melee aginst a 5+ save...
2 Ironguts - 7.26 dmg average
Tyant - 6.3 dmg average (assuming enemy is not a hero, monster, or more than three models, all of which increase his average damage) BUT the tyrant also has his shooting* attack with an average of 1.1 against a 5+ save which brings his total to 7.4. The tyrant's damage also maintains a better average against enemies with better saves. Altogether it is fair to say a tyrant does more damage than two ironguts.

However, a more fair comparison is against a unit of three ironguts with a champion for a total of 10 attacks and an average (against a 5+) of 11.1---50% higher than the tyrant's.

This is where durability comes in. A tyrant has a 3+ save thanks to the deathcheater big name (auto-pick unless one knows they will be up against heavy MW spam) and keeps all of his offense up unil losing his last wound. An irongut unit that takes 4 damage loses a big chunk of their damage output and, notably, cannot be healed. A tyrant with 4 damage on him both fights at 100% and can still be healed from one of the numerous healing effects the allegiance offers. Further, each of those wounds healed is worth more because the enemy must get past a 3+ save instead of a 4+. The tyant also has a single 50mm base, a smaller footprint than 3x 40mm base of the ironguts that makes it more difficult for the enemy to get a bunch of models into melee range while making it easier for him to get in range of a specific target and to get cover.

Still, at the end of the day the tyrant costs more. Why? Because he is a hero. Being a hero means he has access to the effectiveness multiplication of artifacts and command traits as well as being able to use command abilities--his own, the generic ones, and potentially one from the sub faction. Ironguts can't do that. However these benefits have diminishing returns; you only get one command trait and a few artifacts while command abilities still require CP to use. Ultimately this means that a tyrant and a unit of ironguts will generally outperform what two tyrants or two units of ironguts would achieve, which is really how things should be in a properly designed army.

*There is only one friendly shooting phase per round compared to two combat phases, but shooting has range & utility while a given unit frequently does not end up fighting in both combat phases, which serves to even out the relative values.

Thankd you for the breakdown. All Tyrant models looks great, including the new one.

I know a lot og people use him in the undertribe with cannons and trophy racks. Do anybody here on the forum have anu experience with it?

I have run it, extremely powerful.

 Niiai wrote:
Thankd you for the breakdown. All Tyrant models looks great, including the new one.

I know a lot og people use him in the undertribe with cannons and trophy racks. Do anybody here on the forum have anu experience with it?

Undetguts are my primary Sigmar army at the moment. I run a Tyrant with Trophy Rack and 4 Ironblasters.

It's pretty strong.

Can you give and example of such a list? I thought it would have to many drops. Also, the ironblaster is not so good, and only 24" range. Do you run leadbelchers in the list?

 Niiai wrote:
Can you give and example of such a list? I thought it would have to many drops. Also, the ironblaster is not so good, and only 24" range. Do you run leadbelchers in the list?

Dont worry too much about drops. Yeah, you'll lose out to someone optimising for low drop numbers, but that's always a risk anyway.

Bare in mind this is not a tournament list, this is a "strong casual" list I would use in my local shop for pickup games.

24" is loads in Sigmar. Also they can move and fire without penalty with very good speed, so their threat range is huge. Obviously the Tyrant needs to keep for the Rack and command ability, but he can run if he needs to.

Yes, I run a lot of Leadbelchers.


++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Destruction - Ogor Mawtribes) [2,000pts] ++

+ Leader +

Firebelly [120pts]: 0. Gnoblar Blast Keg, 1. Fiery Whirlwind

Frostlord on Stonehorn [400pts]: 1. Black Clatterhorn

+ Artillery +

Ironblaster [120pts]

Ironblaster [120pts]

Ironblaster [120pts]

+ Battleline +

Leadbelchers [160pts]: 2x 2 Leadbelchers

Leadbelchers [160pts]: 2x 2 Leadbelchers

+ Battalion +

Battalion: Kin-Eater's Bully Boys [800pts]
. Ironblaster
. Leadbelchers: 2x 2 Leadbelchers
. Ogor Gluttons: 2x 3 Ogor Gluttons, Bellowers, Paired Clubs or Blades, Tribal Banner Bearers
. Tyrant: 0. Mass of Scars, 2. Brawlerguts, 3. Gruesome Trophy Rack, General

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Ogor Mawtribes: Underguts Mawtribe

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Scenery +

Great Mawpot

++ Total: [2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

I was listening to some of Doom & Darknes walkthrough of the battletomes. (There varius videoes of it.) In one of them this Irish person said he combined those lists with the bridge endless spell. Because leadbelchers do not count as mooving, and then you just move them with the bridhe and shoot at 18".

 Niiai wrote:
I was listening to some of Doom & Darknes walkthrough of the battletomes. (There varius videoes of it.) In one of them this Irish person said he combined those lists with the bridge endless spell. Because leadbelchers do not count as mooving, and then you just move them with the bridhe and shoot at 18".

The bridge is very nice. Depending on matchup, it will sometimes be a bit unnecessary though (if they're a full melee army, they're coming to you anyway and it will not take long for even a slow army to get within18"!).

I'm not totally sold on it being worth the points given that and also how it might just not go off. But if you expect to face another shooty army who will castle in the corner, that could be pretty useful.

Well it seems like there are many fun ways to play Ogors. I found this list on Bell of lost souls was undefeated last weak. (Mind you, it is not nessaserraly a good list as luck in matchups and dices can be big factor. Still, a funn list.)

Wait, with the Coronavirus going on how big would a tournament in the last week have been? I would bet that was a three-round local tournament, which says little because how something performs depends as much on local meta as what is actually good.

For it to be relevant we would need to be seeing a trend of that/similar lists doing well across multiple events, or at something quite large (which as mentioned before, won't have happened in the past week).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Wait, with the Coronavirus going on how big would a tournament in the last week have been?

Yeah, and clicking on that link will probably get you every other virus except for Corona.

 nels1031 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Wait, with the Coronavirus going on how big would a tournament in the last week have been?

Yeah, and clicking on that link will probably get you every other virus except for Corona.

Hah!

I got a deal on 3 Ironblasters/Scraplaunchers. Is there any good Mawtribes builds using either of those units? Wasn't sure about the subfactions and battalions or even if any of those would make that unit viable. I can always use them to make Legion of Azgorh stuff (make great magma cannons!)

 Malathrim wrote:
I got a deal on 3 Ironblasters/Scraplaunchers. Is there any good Mawtribes builds using either of those units? Wasn't sure about the subfactions and battalions or even if any of those would make that unit viable. I can always use them to make Legion of Azgorh stuff (make great magma cannons!)

What sort of Ogor units do you already have?

 Malathrim wrote:
I got a deal on 3 Ironblasters/Scraplaunchers. Is there any good Mawtribes builds using either of those units? Wasn't sure about the subfactions and battalions or even if any of those would make that unit viable. I can always use them to make Legion of Azgorh stuff (make great magma cannons!)

Underguts with Tyrant's Gutguard (reduces deployment drops and you need the extra artifact & cp for this builld) with the Tyrant having the Gruesome Trophy Rack artifact (it affects ranged attacks too) and 4 Ironblasters within 12"; use the Underguts command ability and it is 8 shots with +1 to hit heroes/monsters rend -2 d6 damage. Snipe all the enemy monsters & heroes then mop up whatever is left. Added bonus is the Gutguard battalion lets you have a unit of Ironguts intercept wounds for the Tyrant, you won't want to camp them nearby every game but if the enemy has strong sniping ability themselves it pays off to keep the Tyrant alive.

What is extra nice is this build actually stands a -shot- against Coalesced Seraphon, which most Ogor armies do not.

Edit--Corrected, thanks Stux!

I believe you're thinking Underguts, but aside from that all of it applies.

I run 4 Ironblasters in Underguts with the Tyrant and Trophy Rack and it's very nice.

Cool! Maybe I’ll get the battletome then. Sounds like a more viable army than legion of Azgorh. I have no other Ogors at the moment but have been considering getting back into destruction. Seems like Ogors and Sons of Behemat might get along once they come out too.

TBF, almost everything is more viable than Legion of Azgorh.

Tis true, however I'm still gonna kitbash another 3 Skullcrackers and use them while they still have rules. Maybe I can magnetize the Sky Titan cannon bits for Ogor purposes too. Without them they could also be Gorebeast Chariots. Such versatility with those Ironblaster kits!

It is a pretty great kit.

Is there a consensus on Huskard's using more than one prayer? The data sheet states that only one of the two listed can be selected, but then another can be added from the army prayer list. I always thought it was just one and done, but I recently saw a battle report where the player used one from the data sheet and one that was selected. Thoughts?

The prayer granted by allegiance can be performed in addition to what is normally allowed by the warscroll, this is detailed in the first page of allegiance abilities (instead of with the list of prayers) making it easy to miss.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The prayer granted by allegiance can be performed in addition to what is normally allowed by the warscroll, this is detailed in the first page of allegiance abilities (instead of with the list of prayers) making it easy to miss.

Many thanks! That does make the Huskard slightly better to me, but it still needs a huge points drop to be viable. All Thundertusks need to drop by some points for them to be viable. The delicate balancing act though, is not making them so cheap that the Thundertusk Beastriders become overpowered. Maybe 40 to 60 points would be enough to make them viable without making them stupidly good?

It depends on where you put the bar of how powerful armies should be. Are we bringing things up to match stronger armies, or bringing stronger armies down to match average ones? Where that bar goes makes all the difference in the world as to what points need to go up or down.