Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I love to paint! I also love to sleep, spend time with my wife, eat, [need to] work, spend time with friends and family, and sometimes play video games. Painting gets its time...but I’m pretty specific with my painting and don’t rush. So I don’t get done as much as I want.
Time mostly. I work a regular 8-5 job and live close to family, so there's typically something going on every weekend/every other weekend.
I'm fairly close to being able to field a fully painted Guard army. With my goal this year of 3 infantry models (or 1 tank) per week (and two models painted per one model bought), I should be able to get to a fully painted army fairly soon.
I paint pretty much every day, but there's always the feeling that there's something I'm putting off. Maybe I think it's going to be mechanically difficult like Attack Bikes or a magnetized Predator, maybe I think it's going to be a slog like a Repulsor or Land Raider, maybe it's just something I don't think I'll use a lot like Reivers or Terminators, but there's always something.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
Well, I paint most of my models, but there's always unpainted ones because it takes time and there are a lot of them and I buy new ones before I finish painting the old ones.
Karol wrote: 1 Paints cost too much.
2 I have no place to paint.
3 I don't think painting would be fun for me.
'
regarding number 3 Karol, I used to think much the same until I forced myself to do it, I paint in small amounts, tossing a bit on then going off to do something, and have found it can be pretty zen, and there is NOTHING more sastifying then completeing a new model and realizing it's one of the nicest looking models you have done to date.
paint costs well.. that's relative, suffice to say GW paints cost a lot but other brands are a bit cheaper. as for a place to paint, you might be suprised, if thats ever all thats in your way talk to your parents.
as for me personally, I paint as much as I can but well.. I've a lot of models, sometimes I've had to show up with the odd mini still unpainted.
BrianDavion 784321 10684239 wrote:
paint costs well.. that's relative, suffice to say GW paints cost a lot but other brands are a bit cheaper. as for a place to paint, you might be suprised, if thats ever all thats in your way talk to your parents.
as for me personally, I paint as much as I can but well.. I've a lot of models, sometimes I've had to show up with the odd mini still unpainted.
Maybe, never tried it so it is hard to be 100% certain. I know I never liked art at school. I know the space stuff is a no go. I live on 45 square meters with 2 other kids, my mom and my step dad. And I am not going to paint at 3 in the night in the kitchen, I like sleeping too much.
You don’t paint because you don’t think you’d like it and never tried it...you know, my mom once told me to never try brussel sprouts because I’d hate them. They’re now my favorite vegetable and I could eat them every night.
You know how it relates? You never know if you’ll enjoy something unless you try it. Art class in school FORCES you to finish something for a grade. Painting these models are at YOUR pace, and you’re your own teacher.
Paint with friends at another place if you don’t have space, paint at your store, talk, hang out and chill while you paint. Some of the best painting sessions I ever had involved South Park, paint, and Pepsi with friends.
I was under the impression that this was not a "convince people who dont paint that they should" thread and instead just posting reasons why people dont.
Generally either burn out or lack of interest either in the model or 40k. I haven't been able to get a game in in over a month. So all I've managed to paint are the legs for an invictor and an eliminator. So I still have the entire upper body to paint and 2 other elimators but no ambition
Too many projects, too little time. I have to split my paint time with RPG's, video games (mostly to interact with my son), story writing, reading fiction (or streaming a new series) and (learning) programming. Then I end up with most of my time on forums or youtube :(.
Also, I can paint okay, but not like a lot of the top end painters here. It's intimidating at times and can bum me out from attempting to paint.
Stormonu wrote: Too many projects, too little time. I have to split my paint time with RPG's, video games (mostly to interact with my son), story writing, reading fiction (or streaming a new series) and (learning) programming. Then I end up with most of my time on forums or youtube :(.
Also, I can paint okay, but not like a lot of the top end painters here. It's intimidating at times and can bum me out from attempting to paint.
I was just looking in your gallery, lot's of nice stuff man, I'm impressed. I think you sell yourself short
Like Lance said, I paint when I want, what I want.
But time is also an issue. I paint slowly, so when I do have both the time and the inclination to add to my painted models, it takes me longer to do it.
I also enjoy the game part of the hobby, so that means using unpainted models for all but a few very specific lists.
Because I don’t have the time and in general I’m not happy doing it. The other aspects of model building and playing the game are what I care about.
I haven’t run into anyone who said they didn’t want to play with me because I play it grey, but if they did I’d disregard them and find someone less high-brow.
I paint "armies" slowly. But they'll at least have primer and some basic stuff done on them by the time they hit the table.
For a skirmish game like Kill Team and Necromunda, it's weird. I'm much more into the building and painting process for them because each of them is an 'bigger part' of a small group and their details and presentation seem much more important to me. I've usually got my gang/Kill-team/warband painted before they hit the table.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: I do have an Alpha Legion / Night Lords project in mind but need to teach myself / get familiar with oil paints and an airbrush. No haste.
Protip:
Go find a bunch of junk/trash/broken models and practice both of these a lot. Because trust me, 'learning with your army' is a good way to end up stripping or repurchasing about half of your army.
Mostly it's because I have so many projects I get distracted - I'll paint a few chaos marines, then once I have my paint scheme down I'll become more interested in something else, say SW Legion, or some Reaper miniatures.
So I'm left with a bunch of partly painted stuff. I just need to buckle down and get some projects done this year.
Until tournament time when they're fully painted they're usually undergoing some degree of kit bashing, especially with the new Primaris models, they're just too tidy.
My paintwork is pretty average at best so if they don't look interesting before the paint goes down they won't look interesting when it's done.
One problem I have is my painting room is the basement workshop without any heat so when the weather gets cold painting can sometimes be less then comfortable so I often end up having a slow down if not stoppage of work in the december - feubary period.
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote: I do have an Alpha Legion / Night Lords project in mind but need to teach myself / get familiar with oil paints and an airbrush. No haste.
Protip:
Go find a bunch of junk/trash/broken models and practice both of these a lot. Because trust me, 'learning with your army' is a good way to end up stripping or repurchasing about half of your army.
Preaching to the converted there!
Already got the schemes worked out but not used to oil paints and zenithal highlighting. Should be fun or a complete PITA.
Already got the schemes worked out but not used to oil paints and zenithal highlighting. Should be fun or a complete PITA.
I experimented with oil paints on some of the most absurd things I could find. Toy cars and tanks, army men, etc.
Airbrushing is a bit of a pain- I can only do a few little tricks here and there. Basically, my airbrush is an overpriced priming and basing kit that I sometimes use to make mediocre (at best) OSL.
ScarletRose wrote: Mostly it's because I have so many projects I get distracted - I'll paint a few chaos marines, then once I have my paint scheme down I'll become more interested in something else, say SW Legion, or some Reaper miniatures.
So I'm left with a bunch of partly painted stuff. I just need to buckle down and get some projects done this year.
Soup has been good to me in this regard. Being able to switch between Daemons, R&H and CSM in one project has definitely helped reduce the feeling of burnout.
ScarletRose wrote: Mostly it's because I have so many projects I get distracted - I'll paint a few chaos marines, then once I have my paint scheme down I'll become more interested in something else, say SW Legion, or some Reaper miniatures.
So I'm left with a bunch of partly painted stuff. I just need to buckle down and get some projects done this year.
Soup has been good to me in this regard. Being able to switch between Daemons, R&H and CSM in one project has definitely helped reduce the feeling of burnout.
agreed. differant armies have differant techniques approuches etc required for them
Most of mine are fully painted. Have a few here or there that need to be finished off but its a very small %.
My painting is very stop start stop start.
timetowaste85 wrote: You don’t paint because you don’t think you’d like it and never tried it...you know, my mom once told me to never try brussel sprouts because I’d hate them. They’re now my favorite vegetable and I could eat them every night.
You know how it relates? You never know if you’ll enjoy something unless you try it. Art class in school FORCES you to finish something for a grade. Painting these models are at YOUR pace, and you’re your own teacher.
Paint with friends at another place if you don’t have space, paint at your store, talk, hang out and chill while you paint. Some of the best painting sessions I ever had involved South Park, paint, and Pepsi with friends.
I don't have any friends, so that is out of the window. But again, that is why I am saying I think I would not like it, not that am 100% sure I wouldn't. The rest of the stuff just makes sure that the chance of me trying to paint has more or less zero chance to happen. I mean, the army I have right now isn't very fun to play with in the first place. I don't have the money to buy a new one. I am not going to buy models for an army that is not fun to play with, only to spend more money to check if maybe I like to paint, if I find a space to do it. There is like 4 ifs on the way, and two or three money spendings, and on each level I may get the result of don't like it. Again am saying this is my own personal view on this. I see no reason why someone else couldn't like painting more then anything else in w40k.
1) I have a lot of different draws on my free time. Between theatre, TTRPGs, volunteering, and work, I have about one evening and one weekend day for my housework, shopping etc, let alone painting, TV, gaming, reading...
2) When I'm in the mood, I really enjoy painting, but when I'm not it's a chore. As a result, I tend to only paint when I'm in the right mood, which might only be one evening in a month, but then another month it may be my main focus at home for a couple of weeks.
I do enjoy painting a lot, and I do like seeing my army build over time - as long as it's at my pace and I'm not being unduly pressured, which sucks the fun right out of it.
When I got back to this hobby after another 10+ years of inactivity, I find I'm getting more and more critical of my painting and modelling work. So I take much much more time working my minis now. I dont want to rush anything unless its a monopose starter mini or "easy to build" one or whtever. I "ruined" so many miniatures when I was younger by piss-poor techniques that I swore to myself a long time ago I wouldn't do it anymore, especially considering how expensive minis have become..
So this means that even the modelling part of making a mini takes a long time for me. Still not resulting in 100% perfect results with regards to things like mold line removal, or using greenstuff to fill out the glued joints / perfecting the pose, perfectly drilled gun barrels and that sort of thing. To me its very much an excercise in "back to basics", as the older I get, the more I realize that the key to a perfect looking miniature is in mastering all the humble small things, such as prep work and pulling off superthin paint coats all the time with every colour. Still learning how to perfect the basics!
Then the whole matter of painting! Working out the best paints to use and the best techniques to use for achieving the look I am after. Still figuring out important basics like effective masking techniques for airbrush basecoating (Even though I am new to airbrushing, I already know I would prefer never to paint difficult colours by hand ever again if possible!) and am in the middle of the process of swapping out all of my paints into dropper bottles..
TLDR - I do paint but dunno if I'll ever finish LOL
I don’t need to pain them to play the game and every time I do paint a model I am jus miserable the whole time, so no reason to do something that you hate that has no benefi.
I have many unpainted models for two reasons: first is, I have so many thinks i enjoy doing, that the painting often simply doesn't fit: it is time consuming and I often proiritise other stuff.
Second is: when i look at what gorgeous pieces poeple around my place or around the web showcase, i simply feel like it"s worht little to devote time to it, knowing that my shoody ability at it will be... hum... made clear.
I like having minis that I’ve painted myself. My skills are what I consider decent. I take pride in what I accomplish.
But I don’t enjoy the *act* of painting. I devote effort to learning the fastest and easiest ways to accomplish decent looking, competent paint jobs.
It’s a labour, to produce a desired end. If I don’t have the drive to produce that labour, or that labour doesn’t feel like I’m getting my effort’s worth then I will wait until that drive arrives, rather than force it. (I love Orks, but will never paint another after I finish my Kill Team. )
pm713 wrote: Free time is limited and sometimes I'd rather do something that takes less effort.
Pretty much me. Painting requires setup: unpacking models, unpacking paints I need, unpacking brushes, putting plastic on table, unpacking and prepping wet pallet, prepping water cup, and setting up lamp. This assumes that no one bugs me while I'm doing it, too. And good heavens what happens if I don't have the paint or if it had dried out since I last painted.
I have pretty spazzy hands so on the rare occasion that i don’t have someone else demanding my time, nothing else to do and decent light conditions I give it a shot but it is a slow and frustrating process.
After decades of practice I’m at the level where I can get groups of models done in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not even jealous of the top end display piece painters. They’re pretty inspiring.
People who can quickly and neatly block in base colour schemes and get armies done to a nice basic standard are the source of my envy.
One way I've found to paint up an army is to find someone doing the same thing.
So, you say: "Hey, dude- let's do all of these. I'll do the black on all my guys and your guys, while you do all the silver" or something. Basically, that.
One thing that gets most people, and I used to be one of them- when I'd paint I'd always try to be super-neat. Now, when I go through I just get coverage on all the parts and touch up the overlap later. As long as you've gone with thin coats, it's easy to do.
After that, all you need to worry about is the shading and highlighting.
UncleJetMints wrote: I don’t need to pain them to play the game and every time I do paint a model I am jus miserable the whole time, so no reason to do something that you hate that has no benefi.
I always want to paint my forces but I find the biggest impediment is GWs rules. Half the time the units I'd like to be painting are on the shitheap of GW favour.
Sometimes entire factions I play are. Word Bearers, Orks, Nids, Deathwatch.
Taking a step away from the games and just enjoying the hobby side again has been really good for me.
I like having minis that I’ve painted myself. My skills are what I consider decent. I take pride in what I accomplish.
But I don’t enjoy the *act* of painting. I devote effort to learning the fastest and easiest ways to accomplish decent looking, competent paint jobs.
It’s a labour, to produce a desired end. If I don’t have the drive to produce that labour, or that labour doesn’t feel like I’m getting my effort’s worth then I will wait until that drive arrives, rather than force it.
Time and somewhat work space limitation certainly has prevented me painting more regularly.
Modelling and build is my zen space. Painting is second to that and seeing incremental improvement and trying out new stuff is really rewarding despite being garbage compared to some of the artwork out there. However I also know the artwork is countless hours of work on a single piece.
Lack of interest, no effective workspace and a want to not mess up models while my ideal scheme for an army is not there yet.
didn't help my first models were metals i REALLY didn't want to mess up. im over that now, but so is most of my interest to even field anything for the time being.
JNAProductions wrote: I don't enjoy it. As a hobby, it's meant to be fun, and that's not fun for me.
Yeah, pretty much this. I do a bit, because I do think the time spent doing it is worth it in order to have painted models on the table, But there are lots of stuff that are worth spending the time doing for the results, that don't make it enjoyable though
Contrasts have helped a lot with some blood bowl stuff. one coat only on each area is nice. but i've now got 3 weeks to get 500pts of primaris done and i'm not looking forward to it
JNAProductions wrote: I don't enjoy it. As a hobby, it's meant to be fun, and that's not fun for me.
Yeah, pretty much this. I do a bit, because I do think the time spent doing it is worth it in order to have painted models on the table, But there are lots of stuff that are worth spending the time doing for the results, that don't make it enjoyable though
Contrasts have helped a lot with some blood bowl stuff. one coat only on each area is nice. but i've now got 3 weeks to get 500pts of primaris done and i'm not looking forward to it
JNAProductions wrote: I don't enjoy it. As a hobby, it's meant to be fun, and that's not fun for me.
Yeah, pretty much this. I do a bit, because I do think the time spent doing it is worth it in order to have painted models on the table, But there are lots of stuff that are worth spending the time doing for the results, that don't make it enjoyable though
Contrasts have helped a lot with some blood bowl stuff. one coat only on each area is nice. but i've now got 3 weeks to get 500pts of primaris done and i'm not looking forward to it
And Primaris are a touch too big for contrast :(
Was for the longest time the same way.
I also attempted the both suggested ways of stopping the pile of grey:
the project and the happy go lucky attitude.
I also recomend of severly simplyifying schemes, that allows for faster results which then turn into better motivation. (atleast for my R&H army that was the way to go forward. which ended in a 50 model / weekend challange i gave myself, and have done it )
Summa sumarum, do it in a way that is bound to give you joy.
I love playing this game. I love building models and setting up armies. I absolutely LOATHE painting them. It takes forever, I'm not good, and I have other things I like to do. However, when it comes times for a tournament or I want to finish a squadron or something, I'll make time to paint. I've been playing for over 20 years, and have never had a completely painted army.
3) The times where I could spend an entire weekend painting have gone, I have a wife and a daughter now.
2) Painting has an overhead, where I need to get the paints, the models, some cover for the table, water, light and so on. By the time I'm ready to paint, my spare time might already be over and I need to pack up everything. I don't start painting unless I'm reasonably sure to have at least one hour available.
1) I hate painting in general. I'm told I'm not too bad at it, I can get models to look the way I want and I have gotten quite fast, but it's simply no fun. In addition, painting the same models over and over again is boring. I'd rather build 60 ork boyz than paint 5.
In general, I prefer any part of the hobby over painting, including posting on dakka. Sadly, the only way to get painted models is to paint them, so I do it. It's on a similar level of motivation as taking out the trash so we don't choke on it eventually.
I paint some, when I can, but usually I don't like how the end result comes out. That makes me loathe to paint again, so my skills start to atrophy. It's a while before I try again, and because I waited so long, I usually don't like the end result again. Rinse and repeat.
I enjoy painting most of the time, though there are some times I have a lack of inspiration making painting a chore.
Most importantly, painting is a huge part of this hobby, so I feel like doing so gets the most value out of my dollar.
And hopefully as of this weekend, I'll be completely caught up on painting (i.e. not a single model in my collection will be unfinished) for the first time in YEARS. I only have a Wraithlord left to paint and all his magnetized bitz-n-bobs are already done.
I generally simply do not have the time nor patience for it. I'm a slow painter (partially due to a lack of experience) and when I paint I want to do it well, so I can easily spend upwards of 3 hours on a single MEQ model. The only Dreadnaught I ever painted took me more than 15 hours and even though I'm very happy about how it turned out I'm not looking forward to doing that again. I shudder to think about painting Mortarion, that'll probably take me 40+ hours...
I try and paint everythign. I used to paint and build models as I got them... 3 kids and a real job later I have some unpainted and in progress models simply because i lack time
Karol wrote: 1 Paints cost too much.
2 I have no place to paint.
3 I don't think painting would be fun for me.
No place to paint? So you don't own a table and a chair? Geez man, you have more serious problems than unpainted stuff.
To really enjoy painting it helps to have proper lighting too. I normally load some models and paints on a tray to expedite packing/unpacking.
Today i went to warhammer world to work on my painboy and read some more Black Legion over a coffee. The painting booths there are pretty nice. Adjustable lamp is good.
Karol wrote: 1 Paints cost too much.
2 I have no place to paint.
3 I don't think painting would be fun for me.
No place to paint? So you don't own a table and a chair? Geez man, you have more serious problems than unpainted stuff.
To really enjoy painting it helps to have proper lighting too. I normally load some models and paints on a tray to expedite packing/unpacking.
Today i went to warhammer world to work on my painboy and read some more Black Legion over a coffee. The painting booths there are pretty nice. Adjustable lamp is good.
Please do t think this is a dig as it isn’t, but you can literally buy a decent lamp for painting for the same cost as an average box of GW models.
I’ve literally got a 3 daylight bulb lamp I use from amazon for £25.
I’ve had this thing for a couple of years now and it still works perfectly.
Edit: as a side note I’m seeing tons of people saying they don’t paint because they are bad at it.
Like anything in life it takes practice, no one starts out as an amazing painter.
If you don’t paint you will never improve, it’s kind of a defeatist attitude.
I found it helped to break down the process of painting into stages that were realistic goals, informed by identifying previous failures.
Being able to look at your work and say “this is bad” is a great first step: identify what went wrong and work out what you could do differently next time.
For learning to prime my first mistake i noticed was i only sprayed the model from above, so there was a lot of unprimed places on the downward facing areas of the models.
Next time i made sure to spray from more angles. Unfortunately this clogged up details.
The time after this i was careful not to overspray but i ended up learning not to spray from too far or the paint might become dusty.
Another lesson I learnt was i struggles to get paint into the deepest areas without messing up the adjacent surfaces. This left spots of white where i wasn’t able to get paint in the deepest recesses. This meant i switched to black.
With black undercoat i was unable to see details so clearly to paint, but then i remembered by earliest mistake with the white spray where i was only hitting the most raised surfaces and realised i could use that as a technique over the black spray to pick out details and help me see what i was painting. It also had the pleasing effect of creating a shadow/highlight gradient of any colour i layered over it.
So as you can see being able to look at a ‘bad’ job you did and working out what went wrong and what you could try instead is a really useful tool to improvement.
timetowaste85 wrote: I love to paint! I also love to sleep, spend time with my wife, eat, [need to] work, spend time with friends and family, and sometimes play video games. Painting gets its time...but I’m pretty specific with my painting and don’t rush. So I don’t get done as much as I want.
I love that Mr TimeToWaste's post is a very detailed run down of how he allocates his time. I'm not so sure you have that much time to waste, Mr TimeToWaste. Get back to work!
Karol wrote: 1 Paints cost too much. 2 I have no place to paint. 3 I don't think painting would be fun for me.
No place to paint? So you don't own a table and a chair? Geez man, you have more serious problems than unpainted stuff.
To really enjoy painting it helps to have proper lighting too. I normally load some models and paints on a tray to expedite packing/unpacking.
Today i went to warhammer world to work on my painboy and read some more Black Legion over a coffee. The painting booths there are pretty nice. Adjustable lamp is good.
Please do t think this is a dig as it isn’t, but you can literally buy a decent lamp for painting for the same cost as an average box of GW models. I’ve literally got a 3 daylight bulb lamp I use from amazon for £25. I’ve had this thing for a couple of years now and it still works perfectly.
Edit: as a side note I’m seeing tons of people saying they don’t paint because they are bad at it. Like anything in life it takes practice, no one starts out as an amazing painter. If you don’t paint you will never improve, it’s kind of a defeatist attitude.
Lets not make threads certainly is not about bashing. Some people really just don't have space or money at all.. Karol is a child living in Poland for example. My parents certainly didn't want me paining on kitchen table or give me money for anything when I was a kid.
Certainly, understanding that everybody starts at the bottom, not getting discouraged and persevering will yield improvements. Seems like a no brainer life skill/attitude to me. Everybody fails sometimes so even if I do its not a big deal.. Nobody is perfect. Its like if I go to the gym for the first time and not walk out looking like henry carvil and decide its not for me... I'm sure most males would love to have the body of henry carvil but most men dont want to put in the work of henry carvil..
Some people just don't want to take that first step for whatever reason and assume they wont be any good without trying. I don't get it but there it is. We cant all be henry carvil. All we can do is aspire and encourage.
I think ive developed a man crush on henry carvil… *sigh*..
Im fortunate enough to have somewhat dedicated use my computer desk double up as a paint/build space. Currently littered with basing materials and minatures being constructed so that's all I do.
Once I'm in painting mode I set my alarm in the evening and try to at least get 1-2 hrs in before work after the gym at least couple times a week to get that muscle memory and repetitiveness. Will have my wet pallete there and can just jump in straight away. Occasionally Will replace the paper if ts gotten too messy. I cover my models with foil while im away at work, gym, GF etc. and give them a quick burst of canned air to ensure theres no dust on them while Im away and get stuck straight in. Make sure I wash my brushes after each session and give them a good scrub with masters sop every couple days.
Jackal90 wrote: It wasn’t a post to bash people. Someone said they didn’t have a lamp, yet the models they own cost indefinitely more than a lamp.
That’s like having a house full of food but starving to death.
Money isn’t the key factor for not owning one when someone happily pays more for models.
Yes, it is an extra cost, but you can’t say it’s too expensive then go out and spend that or more on more plastic.
If you read his posts in other topics you'd know that its not the case... He doesn't go out out and buy more plastics like me or you lol. He's been using the same army pretty much for years. As I said he's a kid.
Its certainly an outlier situation, not the norm.
But for some people it really is a choice between buy this box of models or buy supplies. Not everyone can have both. I would question this a s choice of hobby in that circumstance, but each their own.. Some people just have that kind of financial paradigm. Unless you have ever lived on £1.50 portion of chips a day I don't expect you to understand
Edit: as a side note I’m seeing tons of people saying they don’t paint because they are bad at it.
Like anything in life it takes practice, no one starts out as an amazing painter.
If you don’t paint you will never improve, it’s kind of a defeatist attitude.
I think it's more that they don't want to invest the time into practicing. Not everyone prioritizes time the same way, and many people only have the one army. It's easy to find the time to play a game once in a while, even if you have an active life, but finding the time to learn a whole new skill can be difficult if you're also working, raising a family, keeping fit/sports, ect. Particularly if you're also spending time learning other skills for home/work.
I can easily see a guy who plays his space marines made from a few battalion boxes as a way to keep up with his buddies from school, but out side of their time in the shop 1/week, really doesn't have the ability to prioritize the time away from family/work/other interests. In this example, he plays the game as a social activity, rather than as a big hobby.
Insectum7 wrote: Painting my Space Marines in their white paint scheme is a chore and a half.
have you tried the apoacathary white contrast paint? not normally a big fan of contrast paints but apocathary white is very much on my list of ".. ok this is REALLY useful"
Insectum7 wrote: Painting my Space Marines in their white paint scheme is a chore and a half.
have you tried the apoacathary white contrast paint? not normally a big fan of contrast paints but apocathary white is very much on my list of ".. ok this is REALLY useful"
White contrast over gray seer looks really good IMO. Ive seen some SMs at my local shop painted this way in person and I was quite impressed..
Im going to be doing this for my shadow specters and banshees.
BrianDavion wrote: the white armor on my sisters here was done with the white contrast.
Can you tell me which foundation and which paint exactly? I'm currently painting three layers on my DG to get that look, and I'd love to find a shortcut.
I haven't painted in almost 2 years. I was thinking about this for a while, my initial reaction being that my time is so split between work, my son I have every weekend, my partner, the gym, family and friends. I realised however that all these things were taking up time prior to my drop off in painting.
I think I have found the real culprit in reflecting on it. I used to play 40k 2/3 times a week but not long after 8th dropped I played less and less and my painting followed shortly after to the point that I now do neither with any regularity. With gaming, even with sub par units (I was renowned for playing a lot of terminators and Land Raiders in 7th), being my driving force to paint it's no surprise I've stopped. With GW gutting the game mechanics to a 7 year olds level myself and a number of my friends have stopped playing. Probably explains why a few of us now only play historicals despite huge piles of grey GW plastic....
I do, but really slowly, and I don't buy more till I'm finished with what I have. I like to buy the army bundles, so it gives me a lot to work through; assembly is much faster than painting, so there's usually a few grey ones for a while.
Jackal90 wrote: It wasn’t a post to bash people.
Someone said they didn’t have a lamp, yet the models they own cost indefinitely more than a lamp.
That’s like having a house full of food but starving to death.
Money isn’t the key factor for not owning one when someone happily pays more for models.
Yes, it is an extra cost, but you can’t say it’s too expensive then go out and spend that or more on more plastic.
If you read his posts in other topics you'd know that its not the case...
He doesn't go out out and buy more plastics like me or you lol. He's been using the same army pretty much for years. As I said he's a kid.
Its certainly an outlier situation, not the norm.
Point of order - while Karol was at the root of the quote chain, Jackal's point was in response to nareik's comment on lighting.
I don't think there was any need to jump down his throat here, dude.
Jackal90 wrote: It wasn’t a post to bash people.
Someone said they didn’t have a lamp, yet the models they own cost indefinitely more than a lamp.
That’s like having a house full of food but starving to death.
Money isn’t the key factor for not owning one when someone happily pays more for models.
Yes, it is an extra cost, but you can’t say it’s too expensive then go out and spend that or more on more plastic.
If you read his posts in other topics you'd know that its not the case...
He doesn't go out out and buy more plastics like me or you lol. He's been using the same army pretty much for years. As I said he's a kid.
Its certainly an outlier situation, not the norm.
Point of order - while Karol was at the root of the quote chain, Jackal's point was in response to nareik's comment on lighting.
I don't think there was any need to jump down his throat here, dude.
Appreciate it but this is Dakka, my skin is thick enough to just ignore it.
People like to try and find fault instead of commenting on the actual topic.
I think anything thing I haven’t seen on here much is the urge to paint.
I’ll go through weeks where I churn out models at a stupid rate (for me anyway)
Other weeks I pick up a brush and just don’t feel it.
That’s partly due to staring at over 100 chainrasps though.
Seem to buy a lot faster than I paint, leading to several ongoing projects and slowing myself down.
BrianDavion wrote: the white armor on my sisters here was done with the white contrast.
Can you tell me which foundation and which paint exactly? I'm currently painting three layers on my DG to get that look, and I'd love to find a shortcut.
BrianDavion wrote: the white armor on my sisters here was done with the white contrast.
Can you tell me which foundation and which paint exactly? I'm currently painting three layers on my DG to get that look, and I'd love to find a shortcut.
I think many people go through seasons - one month you get really on-board with painting and do it every night as a habit. Then maybe you finish that squad, and can't be bothered to start a new one for a while. Inertia basically.
BrianDavion wrote: the white armor on my sisters here was done with the white contrast.
Can you tell me which foundation and which paint exactly? I'm currently painting three layers on my DG to get that look, and I'd love to find a shortcut.
Apocathary white over wraithbone.
Thanks, I'll give it a try
No problem. not entirely sold on contrast paints but the apoacathry white is a good solution to the "painting white problem"
Personally I do paint, largely as a mechanic to slow down buying, however several at the local group don't, their reasons vary but at the end of the day, their models, their choice.
I don't think we have anyone unable to paint, or ashamed of paint ability - both of which are pretty valid reasons, if you are going to make a right pigs ear, or think you are then sometimes plain plastic or just a coloured primer is perhaps preferable.
we do have several who find painting takes time they just don't have - typically they have a few painted characters accompanied by the primed legions
tends to be a bit of needling over unpainted models, more for historical games than 40k/AoS but its gentle and good natured.
at the end of the day most recognise painted looks better, but not all have the ability and we all understand that
Time, that simple. Plus I think I am in the process of my eyesight degrading from very good to problematic when I switch between close and further focusing. I am on the cusp of needing glasses, so at the moment it can really cause me headaches, etc. Time, however, is the absolutely key factor. My job is way too intensive to allow me the time to paint with any real leisure and focus.
Insectum7 wrote: Painting my Space Marines in their white paint scheme is a chore and a half.
have you tried the apoacathary white contrast paint? not normally a big fan of contrast paints but apocathary white is very much on my list of ".. ok this is REALLY useful"
Imo it's not contrasty enough, I like hard, black lines between plates and I don't think contrast paints will cut it. If a contrast paint did manage the contrast, I'd still have to clean it up with a smooth white again, which is the most painstaking part of it. I have some contrast paint I will try on some less important models. But for the main army, it's going to be the hard way.
Insectum7 wrote: Painting my Space Marines in their white paint scheme is a chore and a half.
have you tried the apoacathary white contrast paint? not normally a big fan of contrast paints but apocathary white is very much on my list of ".. ok this is REALLY useful"
Imo it's not contrasty enough, I like hard, black lines between plates and I don't think contrast paints will cut it. If a contrast paint did manage the contrast, I'd still have to clean it up with a smooth white again, which is the most painstaking part of it. I have some contrast paint I will try on some less important models. But for the main army, it's going to be the hard way.
Spoiler:
That looks really good. IS this contrast or what you are talking about achieving ?
Insectum7 wrote: Painting my Space Marines in their white paint scheme is a chore and a half.
have you tried the apoacathary white contrast paint? not normally a big fan of contrast paints but apocathary white is very much on my list of ".. ok this is REALLY useful"
Imo it's not contrasty enough, I like hard, black lines between plates and I don't think contrast paints will cut it. If a contrast paint did manage the contrast, I'd still have to clean it up with a smooth white again, which is the most painstaking part of it. I have some contrast paint I will try on some less important models. But for the main army, it's going to be the hard way.
Spoiler:
That looks really good. IS this contrast or what you are talking about achieving ?
Thanks! No contrast paints involved. Primed white, blacklined, cleaned up with white, washed with a brown-black, then cleaned/blended with more white again, then sometimes more weathering on top of that. It's a process and a half.
thats what he's talking about achieving, contrast is grey so generally if you do a apocathary white it'll be white with grey highlighting. it looks smart but definatly isn't as sharp as that
these sisters here
Spoiler:
are an example of what you can do with the white contrast paint (note the red is done by conventional means not contrast)
I should note I'm a decent painter but no means an expert.
Lance845 wrote: Those sisters white looks very flat to me. If thats contrast it probably could have used a darker undercoat.
it's the lighting, looks better in real life.
Ain't that the truth. Painting a good looking model and producing an accurate photograph of a model are two largely unrelated skills.
Some people locally don't paint on the grounds that either it takes too long to produce a good looking model or (on the other skde of the coin) that they don't think the results of speed-painting are good enough to be worth the effort.
I paint all the time, but there are still models I'm putting off because they look like a miserable slog to get through the paint process. I've been making more of an effort lately to counter that tendancy though.
My plan is to start painting after i'm done adding robes, puffy sleeves, flags, and feathers to my models, but so far I only have one squad of 5 blood claws, 4 Wulfen, and i'm currently working on my Wolf Lord on Thunder Wolf.
edited for spelling*
ITT- a lot of people misunderstanding the OP's question.
The question is not why are you not painting some models right now, more why do you not participate in what is kinda an integral part of the hobby (whether you like it or not. I've heard all the asinine reasons in that other thread...) that is advertised as such by literally every wargaming company out there?
Grimtuff wrote: ITT- a lot of people misunderstanding the OP's question.
The question is not why are you not painting some models right now, more why do you not participate in what is kinda an integral part of the hobby (whether you like it or not. I've heard all the asinine reasons in that other thread...) that is advertised as such by literally every wargaming company out there?
Presuming much? The OP seemed to acknowledge that different people enjoy the hobby in different ways. Can you do the same?
Grimtuff wrote: ITT- a lot of people misunderstanding the OP's question.
The question is not why are you not painting some models right now, more why do you not participate in what is kinda an integral part of the hobby (whether you like it or not. I've heard all the asinine reasons in that other thread...) that is advertised as such by literally every wargaming company out there?
Why can't it be some models right now? As it is, I've never fielded a fully painted army (unless you include one WMH Battlebox game). The same reasons my army is not fully painted is largely the same reasons I would not have any models painted at all.
Lazy. Bad time management. Obsessive Compulsive painting sprees followed by months of stagnation. Plus I love the converting process much more than painting.
Right now I'm building a Terminator Inquisitor from the Space Marine Heroes Thunderhammer dude. Still need to finish painting my Castellan, that I started in september.
Grimtuff wrote: more why do you not participate in what is kinda an integral part of the hobby (whether you like it or not. I've heard all the asinine reasons in that other thread...) that is advertised as such by literally every wargaming company out there?
Oh, I do.
I just do it at my own pace* - wich many make the mistake of largely thinking "is not participating". That's a problem with their perception, not my enjoyment of the hobby.
In the meantime though I've got no problem playing with the unfinished pieces.
*My own pace is defined as:
#1) As the mood strikes me. Hey, I painted up a Reaper giant snake the other night! Oops, sorry, it doesn't have a 40k use. I must not be participating....
#2) As I need - sometimes I take a commission, sometimes I need a model/squad for a specific event (Sat. evening down at the shop/over at my buddies is not a qualifying event), etc. THEN I'll paint. Question: If I paint someone elses stuff vs my own, does that count as participating?
#3) As individual models "earn their paint".
These days this is the most common way things get painted. Model/unit does something memorable during play - kills its pts worth in one game, model scores me the win, survives ridiculous odds, etc.
Next up in this system (after the boats in #4 are finished) is a particular Churchill Crocodile tank from Flames of War - in 4 turns of play it absorbed 19! potentially tank killing shots, allowing the others of its plt. to do their job.
#4) Sometimes I HAVE to finish the painting before I can even finish the assembly. The goblin figure "Scaremonger" from AoS is an example. There is just no way to paint that after assembly. Likewise with assembling a fleet for the Black Seas age of Sail game. It would VERY difficult to paint the ships after fully rigging the masts & sails. So the project here in Jan. has been painting 30 tiny sailing ships for demo games at the shop. Wich means that anyone judging me by what I've painted for a GW game would foolishly think "Ha! CCS is not participating".
#5 Time. Presently painting time is limited to Mon, Tue, & Wed. So whatever my reason for painting, the painting is limited to those days. If it's Sun/Thur/Fri/Sat? Nothings being painted
JNAProductions wrote: I think it was more directed at people like me, who rarely paint anything.
Oh trust me, I definitely qualify for that.
Not counting several commissions & a terrain piece, my personal output for 2019 was about 85 models.
1 Red Gobbo Christmas grot,
1 Zarbag (grot wizard for AoS)
10 squig riders for AoS,
5 or 6 individual 15 mm WWII pieces, mostly tanks, (none in the same force) that "Earned Paint".
the other 65 or so were all NPC figures (mostly civilians) for a specific D&D adventure. It was important to be able to ID the individuals on the table and playtesting revealed that a simple light prime & ink wash wouldn't cut it. So 65 figs or so in 30 days. If it weren't for these my output would've only been 18 models in 12 months.
Grimtuff wrote: ITT- a lot of people misunderstanding the OP's question.
The question is not why are you not painting some models right now, more why do you not participate in what is kinda an integral part of the hobby (whether you like it or not. I've heard all the asinine reasons in that other thread...) that is advertised as such by literally every wargaming company out there?
Because I don't want to, and anyone who feels compelled to tell me how to participate in my own hobbies and how to spend my own time, money, and energy, is welcome to take a long walk off a short pier.
I put painting off because I have other obligations. I work full time, was going to school part time but this semester going full time. I have a girlfriend and other activities I participate in. I really only play my friends and they have no issue with unpainted models (one kinda does because he paints all the time but he was also unemployed for a good bit of our getting into the hobby so had a lot of time to do so. And it's mostly he just wished the Vampire Counts player would make an effort as he has very few painted models which he bought that way and the rest is a grey hoard). My group typically prioritizes playing as we like the game (shocking I know) so instead of let's get together and paint we always go for let's get together and play.
It's little to do with whether someone likes painting or dislikes painting minis; what I don't really get are the people who invest heavily in a not-very-good game system despite a lack of interest in the crafting nature of the hobby. (And for those who enjoy the setting/themes/aesthetics of the game, there are many versions of 40k that are not miniatures wargames: video games, board and card games, RPG systems, and so on.)
I find myself trying to picture a quilting forum where people keep saying "I like quilting, I just can't be bothered to sew anything and don't see the value in it."
I very, very rarely paint because I genuinely loathe it with an intense, burning passion. There's never been a painting session where I've come away with a good feeling, never mind any pride or accomplishment. I'm not a terrible painter, some of it is even the good side of "alright", but that doesn't change that I disliked every step of doing it, and generally dislike the end result. Maybe part of it's a bit of a blank canvas dilemma: a blank canvas has near unlimited potential, of which a filled canvas can only ever achieve a small part.
The fact I only ever paint nowadays in order to fulfil other people's expectations of how the hobby works doesn't exactly help, either. If I could afford to get stuff painted for me then I might, but that's always felt like the models aren't really mine any more, at least not wholly. The only upside of painting for me is that those models are mine, through all the hours, sweat, tears, and cursing, they're 100% mine.
Hankovitch wrote: It's little to do with whether someone likes painting or dislikes painting minis; what I don't really get are the people who invest heavily in a not-very-good game system despite a lack of interest in the crafting nature of the hobby. (And for those who enjoy the setting/themes/aesthetics of the game, there are many versions of 40k that are not miniatures wargames: video games, board and card games, RPG systems, and so on.)
I find myself trying to picture a quilting forum where people keep saying "I like quilting, I just can't be bothered to sew anything and don't see the value in it."
Bad analogy. There is nothing to do in quilting as a hobby except quilt. The vast majority of this forum has nothing to do with painting. Its has to do with playing the game. The rules. The units. The upcoming releases. The rule books. The missions. The tourney stats. Why would you join a forum about playing the game and expect 100% of it to be about painting?
Hankovitch wrote: It's little to do with whether someone likes painting or dislikes painting minis; what I don't really get are the people who invest heavily in a not-very-good game system despite a lack of interest in the crafting nature of the hobby. (And for those who enjoy the setting/themes/aesthetics of the game, there are many versions of 40k that are not miniatures wargames: video games, board and card games, RPG systems, and so on.)
I find myself trying to picture a quilting forum where people keep saying "I like quilting, I just can't be bothered to sew anything and don't see the value in it."
It boils down to, this is the game my friends are playing. A couple of us keep trying to get flames of war to take off In my area, but everyone is invested in warhammer, but this discussion of painting vs not painting already got shut down once this month. No need to shut down another thread.
Eh. I’m not bothered by someone saying “I don’t get it.” That’s fine-it confuses them, but they’re not being mean about it, just expressing bewilderment. Hardly something to get salty over.
Hankovitch wrote: It's little to do with whether someone likes painting or dislikes painting minis; what I don't really get are the people who invest heavily in a not-very-good game system despite a lack of interest in the crafting nature of the hobby. (And for those who enjoy the setting/themes/aesthetics of the game, there are many versions of 40k that are not miniatures wargames: video games, board and card games, RPG systems, and so on.)
It's pretty simple. My hobby is the PLAYING of miniatures games.
Can't really do that without the models. So gotta buy & assemble.
Now wether or not I play with them in color.... {shrugs} Doesn't usually bother me. Doesn't bother the people I game with either.
So painting occurs when it occurs - unless I'm being paid, have a very specific need, or not painting now will make it all but impossible to paint the finished piece in the future.
The only game I've played a couple of AoS games where my army wasn't fully painted, but it at least had a base coat and usually a layer as well.
Since I got married and now have a four year old stepson, finding time to paint is much more difficult. Would I trade my wife and stepson for painting? Heck no.
But, if I do play without painted models, it would be because I simply haven't had the time to paint them.
Kanluwen wrote: If you want hard, black lines between plates then hit Black Templar with the Contrast Medium and apply it that way.
The black lines arent the tricky part, it's the rebuilding to white afterwards. But if you got pics I'm interested.
Well, that and painting the badges
I don't like to have too many pictures of my stuff floating around these days. If you look at the "Skaeth's Wild Hunt" painting video for Warhammer Beastgrave or the promo shots for them?
See the red leather? They have you use Black Templar mixed with Contrast Medium to make it really 'pop'.
Quite frankly I wasn’t pulled into 40k because of the prospect of doing 3D adult coloring books
If you dont enjoy it you dont enjoy it.. no problem there.
Seems odd having a dig at 3d adult colouring books....while being interested in adult toy soldiers to me.
The painted figures and the battlefields, the lore and game itself all come together and make up one great hobby.
But, as has been pointed out, you can enjoy the painting & gaming aspects completely independent of one another.
*Some can game on quite happily with bare plastic/metal/resin. I mean, you don't need to paint Chess pieces to enjoy Chess do you? You've played with solid colored Army Men/Dinos/etc as a kid, right? So why should a grey SM be any different? Because it costs magnitudes more than a Green Army Man??
*Others, like my friends GF, love painting this stuff but can't stand playing the games. She just does not see what we're getting out of the playing part of the hobby....
*Many people though can combine painting/playing.
Well I have 2000+necrons and 3500 + orks painted but.
The most issue for me is time.
I work 40 hours a week as ( dunno the word in English) male nurse? got two kids and a wife. And make sport every second day.
I painted alot last year but I understand when people have time issue to paint
Kanluwen wrote: If you want hard, black lines between plates then hit Black Templar with the Contrast Medium and apply it that way.
The black lines arent the tricky part, it's the rebuilding to white afterwards. But if you got pics I'm interested.
Well, that and painting the badges
I don't like to have too many pictures of my stuff floating around these days. If you look at the "Skaeth's Wild Hunt" painting video for Warhammer Beastgrave or the promo shots for them?
Spoiler:
See the red leather? They have you use Black Templar mixed with Contrast Medium to make it really 'pop'.
Still looks a little grayish to me, and I think it would be even lighter if painted over white instead of a mid-value red. But I'll buy some Contrast Medium just to have it around, and do an experiment or two. I'm planning on trying contrast on a bunch of OG beakies at some point.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
Good for you. No one is forcing you to. It's a bit off topic though.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
Elbows wrote: Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
Not to be nitpicky or assy, but no FLGS or gaming club is, by definition, "public". It's still a private establishment or on private property. It would be "public" if it were in a park, on a city sidewalk, or city/state/federal land/property.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: I got my Rebooted Legion painted this weekend, at least about 85%-90%, enough that I'd be comfortable with people taking photos or hauling them to a tournament. I'm no expert painter, but I do okay. It wasn't all me, though.
So, what I did was found a friend that was getting into Horus Heresy. We made a deal that we would get "the basics" painted up over the weekend for both of our armies. So, we laid all of our models on the table after we primed them. Then we based all of our own Legion's primary colors. The "common colors" we divided- "I'll do the metal, you do the black" sort of arrangement. Basically even though we did pretty much the same amount of models together that we would have done on our own- it seemed to be a lot easier when we divided the tasks of painting both our armies and worked as a team.
One of the things that I had a lot of difficulty with was trying too hard to be neat when I was painting- well, the whole idea of 'neaten up later' is a real thing. At first, 'coverage' is what's more important than 'detail' and 'precision'.
Now, I can have a 'painted army' and what I do over time is go back and touch up all the little mistakes, and I make a little mark under the base with a bright color to know I've finished it, and if there are two marks under the base I know I've applied anti-shine/gloss varnish and the model is fully complete.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
My private property, and personal artistic expression. So, yes I can legally stop you, force take-downs of posted pictures, ect, if I care enough to go that far.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
My private property, and personal artistic expression. So, yes I can legally stop you, force take-downs of posted pictures, ect, if I care enough to go that far.
I won't it is as simple as that. I have the right to take the pictures, but I do not have the right to post them without his consent.
Still, nothing prevents you from just packing up once he starts taking photos and mess up the epic scenery while doing so. Using your dice and tape measure to spell "Feth you!" "YOLO" and other immersion-breaking things also comes to mind. Last, but not least, play Slanesh and have some models with female nipples to make those images unpostable on twitter, instagram, facebook and others. Bonus points for unpainted female nipples.
Yeah, to get things back to the topic a bit, I do paint my stuff mostly, and am strict about not playing with unpainted stuff nowadays. What that tends to mean is stuff does not get played.
Like others, my main issue is time. I am a teacher, and time tends to be feast or famine for me. I am either working 50+ hours a week and don't have time (more like 70 hours in the worst periods) or I have long periods off and get loads done.
Im being held back by the current obsession with building
Also my bottle neck is that my pile of stuff in need of airbrushing has grown to the point I have enough to set up and start working, however there are still more things I would like to do in several consecutive sessions. I hate changing colours in the airbrush so Im trying to get as many pieces built and primed before moving onto painting.
Also, got some more colour shift colours so some awesome experiments need to be done
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
My private property, and personal artistic expression. So, yes I can legally stop you, force take-downs of posted pictures, ect, if I care enough to go that far.
I won't it is as simple as that. I have the right to take the pictures, but I do not have the right to post them without his consent.
You have the right to take pictures of your models. You may not take pictures of other people, or their property without their permission.
But, as has been pointed out, you can enjoy the painting & gaming aspects completely independent of one another.
*Some can game on quite happily with bare plastic/metal/resin. I mean, you don't need to paint Chess pieces to enjoy Chess do you? You've played with solid colored Army Men/Dinos/etc as a kid, right? So why should a grey SM be any different? Because it costs magnitudes more than a Green Army Man??
Chess is a balanced and widely acclaimed board game. It is a good game whether you play with a cheap plastic set from a flea market, or the hand-carved stone set you painstakingly assembled while doing time at Shawshank. Plastic army men are cheap and disposable so that kids can lose them in the lawn or blow them up with firecrackers without destroying anything of value.
Warhammer 40k is a dumpster fire of a ruleset that only succeeds by the strength of its aesthetic value and affection for the setting. The aesthetics of the game are literally the only thing that give it cultural value above all its market competitors. The values of hand-crafting and artistic expression are what distinguish miniatures wargaming as a genre from board games, video games, hex-and-chit strategy games, video games, and so on.
People are free to enjoy good things in a superficial and uncultured fashion. I'm free to quietly judge them in the privacy of my mind or among like-minded friends.
People are free to enjoy good things in a superficial and uncultured fashion. I'm free to quietly judge them in the privacy of my mind or among like-minded friends.
I don't understand people, who don't name their characters and make a believable backstory for their chapter/company/squad.
I mean, why do we like 40K? It is for the setting, and certainly not for the rules.
I just find that it really ruins my immersion and enjoyment, when a person is too lazy to at least name their squads.
Now, I don't expect everything to be named right out of the gate, with a full backstory of past victories and squad rivalries, but I really hate the pathetic net-list power gamers, that don't even show some kind of progress.
I mean, how hard is it to name one squad each time you play? How hard is it to sit down and spend a few hours thinking up names?
"But I am not good at it!". Don't worry. It all comes with practice. Just start naming and you might find better names later.
I personally don't field an unnamed squad without at least a decent backstory, but each to their own I guess.
I just wouldn't set a low standard, and I certainly wouldn't actively ruin the game for others....so I name my squads, at least.
I feel i must ask this once more. If a prevailing point is that the games only held up by painting and aesthetics, then why even invest good painting efforts into it? painting any miniature with an aesthetic you want, and possibly getting a better game would appear to be the better option, wouldn't it?
Well if you suddenly decided that other companies make good or better looking models, this would mean you just were wasting money and time for only you know how much time.
It is better to stay with the bad you know, then do anything else.
Plus it is a social thing. what if you picked up an infinity or star wars model, and your GW crew did not react welcoming to it?
People are free to enjoy good things in a superficial and uncultured fashion. I'm free to quietly judge them in the privacy of my mind or among like-minded friends.
I don't understand people, who don't name their characters and make a believable backstory for their chapter/company/squad.
I mean, why do we like 40K? It is for the setting, and certainly not for the rules.
I just find that it really ruins my immersion and enjoyment, when a person is too lazy to at least name their squads.
Now, I don't expect everything to be named right out of the gate, with a full backstory of past victories and squad rivalries, but I really hate the pathetic net-list power gamers, that don't even show some kind of progress.
I mean, how hard is it to name one squad each time you play? How hard is it to sit down and spend a few hours thinking up names?
"But I am not good at it!". Don't worry. It all comes with practice. Just start naming and you might find better names later.
I personally don't field an unnamed squad without at least a decent backstory, but each to their own I guess.
I just wouldn't set a low standard, and I certainly wouldn't actively ruin the game for others....so I name my squads, at least.
if thats how you enjoy about the game, good for you. but don't go calling everyone that doesn't name their squads and characters "lazy/pathetic/power gamers". I personally only name my characters if they manage to do something noteworthy in a fight, sometimes. And some of my models earned some medals (that i have yet to convert) for cool in-game moments. Most of my armies are unnamed tho. I just don't need the roleplaying part to enjoy 40k, and you insulting people that view the game differently than you do is pretty rude.
Karol wrote: Well if you suddenly decided that other companies make good or better looking models, this would mean you just were wasting money and time for only you know how much time.
It is better to stay with the bad you know, then do anything else.
Plus it is a social thing. what if you picked up an infinity or star wars model, and your GW crew did not react welcoming to it?
... that's about all I've been able to gather from such a stance. people trying to make the best of a bad situation by... still investing into it. well, if that's what they want to do.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
My private property, and personal artistic expression. So, yes I can legally stop you, force take-downs of posted pictures, ect, if I care enough to go that far.
Sure, you can pretend that you can do that - but you actually can't. Nice try though, I suppose.
Karol wrote: Plus it is a social thing. what if you picked up an infinity or star wars model, and your GW crew did not react welcoming to it?
... that's about all I've been able to gather from such a stance. people trying to make the best of a bad situation by... still investing into it. well, if that's what they want to do.
Well, it's the old question of wargaming surrounding GW games - do you play a game you might not like but gets on the table, or buy into something that either might not take off, or never gets attention?
I've been in several wargaming groups that are quite happy to either pick up new games or, if you provide the miniatures for both sides, sit down to learn new rules (and maybe be enticed to pick up something themselves). Not everyone is that lucky.
People are free to enjoy good things in a superficial and uncultured fashion. I'm free to quietly judge them in the privacy of my mind or among like-minded friends.
I don't understand people, who don't name their characters and make a believable backstory for their chapter/company/squad.
I mean, why do we like 40K? It is for the setting, and certainly not for the rules.
I just find that it really ruins my immersion and enjoyment, when a person is too lazy to at least name their squads.
Now, I don't expect everything to be named right out of the gate, with a full backstory of past victories and squad rivalries, but I really hate the pathetic net-list power gamers, that don't even show some kind of progress.
I mean, how hard is it to name one squad each time you play? How hard is it to sit down and spend a few hours thinking up names?
"But I am not good at it!". Don't worry. It all comes with practice. Just start naming and you might find better names later.
I personally don't field an unnamed squad without at least a decent backstory, but each to their own I guess.
I just wouldn't set a low standard, and I certainly wouldn't actively ruin the game for others....so I name my squads, at least.
if thats how you enjoy about the game, good for you. but don't go calling everyone that doesn't name their squads and characters "lazy/pathetic/power gamers". I personally only name my characters if they manage to do something noteworthy in a fight, sometimes. And some of my models earned some medals (that i have yet to convert) for cool in-game moments. Most of my armies are unnamed tho. I just don't need the roleplaying part to enjoy 40k, and you insulting people that view the game differently than you do is pretty rude.
Karol wrote: Plus it is a social thing. what if you picked up an infinity or star wars model, and your GW crew did not react welcoming to it?
... that's about all I've been able to gather from such a stance. people trying to make the best of a bad situation by... still investing into it. well, if that's what they want to do.
Well, it's the old question of wargaming surrounding GW games - do you play a game you might not like but gets on the table, or buy into something that either might not take off, or never gets attention?
I've been in several wargaming groups that are quite happy to either pick up new games or, if you provide the miniatures for both sides, sit down to learn new rules (and maybe be enticed to pick up something themselves). Not everyone is that lucky.
everyone will answer that question differently. for me? im not going to buy a product i don't really care for, just because it'll get on the table- but then I have other priorities and interests i could invest in, and i don't have a group ive been with to keep me in a specific product range. I just always find it odd when i hear people more or less say the game is so bad, that the painting saves it. at that point i start to wonder why even game at all. certain aesthetics aside, theres a lot of shore's to go paint on before id even question bang for buck. but i guess the social experience is worth the cost.
Mmmpi wrote: You have the right to take pictures of your models. You may not take pictures of other people, or their property without their permission.
Are you sure that's the law? Because many states do not require your consent to photograph or record you or your property.
I don't understand people, who don't name their characters and make a believable backstory for their chapter/company/squad.
I mean, why do we like 40K? It is for the setting, and certainly not for the rules.
I just find that it really ruins my immersion and enjoyment, when a person is too lazy to at least name their squads.
Now, I don't expect everything to be named right out of the gate, with a full backstory of past victories and squad rivalries, but I really hate the pathetic net-list power gamers, that don't even show some kind of progress.
I mean, how hard is it to name one squad each time you play? How hard is it to sit down and spend a few hours thinking up names?
"But I am not good at it!". Don't worry. It all comes with practice. Just start naming and you might find better names later.
I personally don't field an unnamed squad without at least a decent backstory, but each to their own I guess.
I just wouldn't set a low standard, and I certainly wouldn't actively ruin the game for others....so I name my squads, at least.
Funny thing... This hypothetical gamer you're describing? Would likely be a BLAST to play with.
I mean, sure, they're probably a bit weird sometimes. But just imagine coming to the table with someone who had a name for his Knight House, had heraldry and a history, and a livery for the company of infantry that accompanied them into battle. Imagine someone who could tell you about the nearly-forgotten, ancient hero who suffered inside his Leviathan dreadnought, and how he resisted the torments that were inflicted on him every time he took to the field. Imagine the person who could name their melee captain, who had imagined a few of the heroic exploits (perhaps even from previous games!) that had forged him into the jump-pack-wearing, hammer-wielding badass he has become.
Imagine the person who knows the name of their Guardsmen's homeworld--without it being Cadia or Tallarn or Vostroya. (Not that those aren't nice places!). Imagine someone who could explain to you how their genestealer cult was spread from world to world, or who could tell you about the murders and betrayals that their archon had committed to claim leadership of a Kabal.
A person like this might make you want to run a narrative campaign, to have a history for your army beyond a series of anonymous Ws and Ls. They might spur you to create Kill Teams, or a new battlefield to fight over. And most of all? This person would probably have painted their army.
I'd trade a dozen unpainted net-list Timmys to play games with this person. But to you, it seems, they're just a troll.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
My private property, and personal artistic expression. So, yes I can legally stop you, force take-downs of posted pictures, ect, if I care enough to go that far.
Sure, you can pretend that you can do that - but you actually can't. Nice try though, I suppose.
So, I read the article that was posted above. Sad to say it actually agrees with what others have said...stores aren't private property. There's also the aspect of ownership. Since it's my property being photographed, I'm half owner of the photo (Professional photographers get work releases signed which gives them full ownership). There's also the privacy issue involved.
This is all moot though because no one would take photos of someone's models without their permission right?
--
So we've heard "don't care, paint slowly, only paint when motivated, dislike painting and have to force themselves" as the more common reasons people don't paint.
What methods could we do to encourage people to paint so they take interest in that aspect/paint faster/are most productive when motivated?
Mmmpi wrote: You have the right to take pictures of your models. You may not take pictures of other people, or their property without their permission.
Are you sure that's the law? Because many states do not require your consent to photograph or record you or your property.
The ultimate authority would be the store owner.
Yes, and I also forgot ownership issues.
The person who's stuff is getting photographed can expect a measure of privacy if they aren't in a public place. The store owner can have a say in who photographs however as they own the store, but consent from the person in it is also an issue.
The person who's getting their stuff photographed is also 50% owner of the photograph unless they sign that away. (Professional photographers get work releases signed from clients)
This does bring up the question though. Why would you risk taking photos without someone's permission? Let's say it's legal in your area. If they say no, and you do it anyway, are they going to react well? At best your game is now gakky. At worse, you've lost most of the store as opponents.
Edit: since this seems to be an ongoing topic, I''m going to start a new thread for it.
phillv85 wrote: Ok, so that title might look like I’m asking accusingly, I can assure you I’m not.
I was quite surprised to see a fair few people say they don’t paint their models all when reading the How Important To You Is Painting thread.
I’m genuinely interested in why you don’t do it. Is it that you can’t paint for whatever reason, be it time, money, or another reason? Are you afraid of doing a bad paint job? (I’ve certainly avoided certain models because I don’t feel I can do them justice). Is there just no call for it in your playing group?
I’d rather people didn’t post reasons on this thread why people should in fact paint, we’ve got them all in the other. I just am curious as to why some people don’t. I’m not looking for a flame war.
I don't play my army unless they are painted and won't if someone doesn't either. Main reason is looks of the game and I take pictures of the games. Don't want non painted models in my army.
What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
Not something you can actually do in a public place...so...good luck with that.
My private property, and personal artistic expression. So, yes I can legally stop you, force take-downs of posted pictures, ect, if I care enough to go that far.
Sure, you can pretend that you can do that - but you actually can't. Nice try though, I suppose.
So, I read the article that was posted above. Sad to say it actually agrees with what others have said...stores aren't private property. There's also the aspect of ownership. Since it's my property being photographed, I'm half owner of the photo (Professional photographers get work releases signed which gives them full ownership). There's also the privacy issue involved.
This is all moot though because no one would take photos of someone's models without their permission right? -- So we've heard "don't care, paint slowly, only paint when motivated, dislike painting and have to force themselves" as the more common reasons people don't paint.
What methods could we do to encourage people to paint so they take interest in that aspect/paint faster/are most productive when motivated?
Mmmpi wrote: You have the right to take pictures of your models. You may not take pictures of other people, or their property without their permission.
Are you sure that's the law? Because many states do not require your consent to photograph or record you or your property.
The ultimate authority would be the store owner.
Yes, and I also forgot ownership issues.
The person who's stuff is getting photographed can expect a measure of privacy if they aren't in a public place. The store owner can have a say in who photographs however as they own the store, but consent from the person in it is also an issue. The person who's getting their stuff photographed is also 50% owner of the photograph unless they sign that away. (Professional photographers get work releases signed from clients)
This does bring up the question though. Why would you risk taking photos without someone's permission? Let's say it's legal in your area. If they say no, and you do it anyway, are they going to react well? At best your game is now gakky. At worse, you've lost most of the store as opponents.
Edit: since this seems to be an ongoing topic, I''m going to start a new thread for it.
Or they loose clout and make themselves look foolish/argumentative for making a big deal out of nothing and ruining the community vibe..
And community is how you encourage people to paint. Have painting corners/clinics running workshops. Its what we have done at our local club. I think I might do one about basing and help people make cool bases which will also in turn show them how effective and easy shading and dry brushing is a technique for those that might be beginner painters. Its all about community however you slice it and supporting people and being encouraging IMO. However, as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water.. But you damn sure cant make that mofo drink lol.
People are free to enjoy good things in a superficial and uncultured fashion. I'm free to quietly judge them in the privacy of my mind or among like-minded friends.
I don't understand people, who don't name their characters and make a believable backstory for their chapter/company/squad.
I mean, why do we like 40K? It is for the setting, and certainly not for the rules.
I just find that it really ruins my immersion and enjoyment, when a person is too lazy to at least name their squads.
Now, I don't expect everything to be named right out of the gate, with a full backstory of past victories and squad rivalries, but I really hate the pathetic net-list power gamers, that don't even show some kind of progress.
I mean, how hard is it to name one squad each time you play? How hard is it to sit down and spend a few hours thinking up names?
"But I am not good at it!". Don't worry. It all comes with practice. Just start naming and you might find better names later.
I personally don't field an unnamed squad without at least a decent backstory, but each to their own I guess.
I just wouldn't set a low standard, and I certainly wouldn't actively ruin the game for others....so I name my squads, at least.
if thats how you enjoy about the game, good for you. but don't go calling everyone that doesn't name their squads and characters "lazy/pathetic/power gamers". I personally only name my characters if they manage to do something noteworthy in a fight, sometimes. And some of my models earned some medals (that i have yet to convert) for cool in-game moments. Most of my armies are unnamed tho. I just don't need the roleplaying part to enjoy 40k, and you insulting people that view the game differently than you do is pretty rude.
... And do you think that painting is a requirement to play the game?
I think you may have missed the point of that post - it's clearly a parody intended to point out how the "models must be painted or you're a lazy power gaming armyhopping WAAC player" attitude can come across to others who disagree with the fundamental premise.
The person who's stuff is getting photographed can expect a measure of privacy if they aren't in a public place. The store owner can have a say in who photographs however as they own the store, but consent from the person in it is also an issue.
The person who's getting their stuff photographed is also 50% owner of the photograph unless they sign that away. (Professional photographers get work releases signed from clients)
This does bring up the question though. Why would you risk taking photos without someone's permission? Let's say it's legal in your area. If they say no, and you do it anyway, are they going to react well? At best your game is now gakky. At worse, you've lost most of the store as opponents.
Edit: since this seems to be an ongoing topic, I''m going to start a new thread for it.
Actually yes and no it varies on country and situation.
For example in many countries if the model is paying for the photography then they own the photos; in others the photographer retains ownership unless they sign it away.
If the photographer is paying the model then in most countries the model has no ownership of the photo at all.
If its a mutual exchange of services then one would expect the 50-50 ownership to be part of the contract agreement.
Regardless in most countries the person who presses the shutter is the one who owns the photograph (you recall that monkey face photo that went around the net a while back where the monkey took the photo - the photographer LOST the rights to that photo as it was argued in court that the monkey took the photo and, as its not human, it has no rights to protect so the photo was listed as public domain).
If you're in a public place or a private property with public access and no rules against it, then the person who presses the shutter button owns the photo. You can even publish and profit for editorial use without penalty (that's how newspapers work). Although there have been new laws brought in to curb some of this and many places are more uptight on getting written permission where possible, especially for something like event marketing (though again if its a crowd of a 500 people in the photo then they don't have to seek permission).
This is all very rough and general and different countries (and states) can have variations on the rules. But the main upshot is that your concept of 50-50 ownership is flawed and most often not the default cause.
anglo sphear has a very specific and strange definition of what is public/private , same with ownership.
technicly a street is okey, but when our public TV went to make material about UK, they got arrested and their stuff was confiscated. And they had to leave the country as soon as our ambassador got them out.
I don't understand people, who don't name their characters and make a believable backstory for their chapter/company/squad.
I mean, why do we like 40K? It is for the setting, and certainly not for the rules.
I just find that it really ruins my immersion and enjoyment, when a person is too lazy to at least name their squads.
Now, I don't expect everything to be named right out of the gate, with a full backstory of past victories and squad rivalries, but I really hate the pathetic net-list power gamers, that don't even show some kind of progress.
I mean, how hard is it to name one squad each time you play? How hard is it to sit down and spend a few hours thinking up names?
"But I am not good at it!". Don't worry. It all comes with practice. Just start naming and you might find better names later.
I personally don't field an unnamed squad without at least a decent backstory, but each to their own I guess.
I just wouldn't set a low standard, and I certainly wouldn't actively ruin the game for others....so I name my squads, at least.
Thank you to Jacksmiles and Aelyn for getting the point of my post.
I have three kids in the house, the middle with Down Syndrome, and the youngest with Autism. Finding time to paint has been a bear. I'm almost to the point of bringing stuff to work and trying to milk out break and lunch.
1) I only really get 1 hour, maybe an hour and a half a night to paint. Which mostly consists base coating and washing a single model. Or, if i'm batch painting, getting 3 or 4 colours down on a few before I continue the next day.
2) I have about 10 different project going on and I have project A.D.D. so I'll paint a mini for one of those projects then one from another project next. So I make progress on all but overall it's slow.
3) I work in I.T. so I spend my day sitting down in front of a PC. When I get home I just don't want to sit down any more then I already do and I psych myself out of painting.
4) I only really paint in the cold months. I prefer to be outside in the summer/Spring when the weather get better which means half the year I just straight can't be motivated to paint.
Of the projects I'm working on I have:
1000pts of Stormcast
1000pts of Cities of Sigmar
2000pts of Ogor Mawtribes
1000pts of Blade of Khorne
2000pt Goblin army for WHFB/9th Age
1000pts Dwarf army for WHFB/9th age
1000pts Khorne Chaos Warrior army for WHFB/9th Age
Painting the Conan Miniature game from Monolith
Continuing to add to my rather large Terrain collection (Right now working on the old Citadel castle)
Giant pile of Bones miniature from 2 kickstarters sitting in a pile in the corner
Pile of Lord of the Rings minis I'm slowly working through
... And do you think that painting is a requirement to play the game?
Yes. Obviously!
ccs wrote: What if I don't give you permission to photo my models?
I would never want to come across you in a Friendly local game store
Why? You wouldn't play him anyways.
Personally, I can't imagine someone seeing 2 people, one who says
"Please don't photograph me and/or my models"
And one who goes on a tirade about how he's legally allowed to phtograph everything in the store (while also criticizing his partially/un painted army) and saying - "wow that first guy seems like a jerk!"
In the dozens of threads over there years on dakka dakka that talk about this - it's not a rare personal rule for players to uphold. If you're going to bother playing a pick up game with a random player you aren't familair with at the store - why play with someone who can't be bothered to glue some models together and apply paint? ad nauseam x100
Cryptek - It reminds me of police officers that tell civilians to stop filming them while on duty. I have no intention to make fun of a bad painter or take awkward photos of people. I want to photograph a great game being played on awesome terrain with fully painted models.
Quote from earlier:
Stevefamine wrote: In the US - no issue. I can take photos whenever I want. If the guy wants to be weird about it - let him cause a scene. Sounds similar to when cops ask to not be recorded.
As long as the person taking the photos isn't making fun of the paint job or doing anything nasty to the individual.
DK Rider - Warmachine is the game for you if you're not into the hobby side. I recommended this to a friend of mine and he genuinely enjoys not having to stress out finishing his armies for local events. No painting flat printed out terrain, and hard WYSIWYG/Base Size/No Conversions.
Stevefamine wrote: In the dozens of threads over there years on dakka dakka that talk about this - it's not a rare personal rule for players to uphold. If you're going to bother playing a pick up game with a random player you aren't familair with at the store - why play with someone who can't be bothered to glue some models together and apply paint? ad nauseam x100
Cryptek - It reminds me of police officers that tell civilians to stop filming them while on duty. I have no intention to make fun of a bad painter or take awkward photos of people. I want to photograph a great game being played on awesome terrain with fully painted models.
Quote from earlier:
Stevefamine wrote: In the US - no issue. I can take photos whenever I want. If the guy wants to be weird about it - let him cause a scene. Sounds similar to when cops ask to not be recorded.
As long as the person taking the photos isn't making fun of the paint job or doing anything nasty to the individual.
DK Rider - Warmachine is the game for you if you're not into the hobby side. I recommended this to a friend of mine and he genuinely enjoys not having to stress out finishing his armies for local events. No painting flat printed out terrain, and hard WYSIWYG/Base Size/No Conversions.
Not where we are. Mostly painted armies, full 3d (or at least 2.5d). Many of us are trying very hard to change the WM/H mentality and the community is moving in that direction. Also point out that all the big tournaments and ones supported by PP where thee is a chance of getting on one of the streams have a 100% painting requirement.
Also, conversions are allowed in WM/H as long as its 50% of PP product and clearly identifiable what the model is.
I will admit however that compaired to some other systems we have historically been a lot worse at painting. The stereotype exists for a reason.....
I'm really waiting for 3D color printing to get within reasonable price ranges.
No painting and no grey models. Win-win for everyone... except GW I guess.
If painted models are a requirement for you to play the game, maybe you should switch to playing X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, or AT-43, since you don't have to rely on your opponent's capacity for paining.
Charistoph wrote: If painted models are a requirement for you to play the game, maybe you should switch to playing X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, or AT-43, since you don't have to rely on your opponent's capacity for paining.
Or they can simply play people with painted models? That's far easier.
Charistoph wrote: If painted models are a requirement for you to play the game, maybe you should switch to playing X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, or AT-43, since you don't have to rely on your opponent's capacity for paining.
Or they can simply play people with painted models? That's far easier.
Depends on the area. Some places, there are plenty of people with painted models. Others, not so much. Whereas with X-Wing, they come pre painted, so you’re guaranteed to have a painted foe.
I paint my minis because I find the process relaxing more than any other reason. Yes, I like having fully painted armies; yes, I like when people praise my painting skills, and yes, I appreciate the spectacle of seeing two fully painted armies face off on a table of nice terrain.
But now that I'm stuck over an hour's drive from the nearest gaming venue and haven't played in over six years... I still paint minis because it's relaxing.
How does this relate to the subject of the thread? Well, if painting minis stresses one out, I can completely understand why one wouldn't do it. If one lacks the time, if one lacks the artistic inclination... I get it. You are not me, and the hobby is for everyone.
Charistoph wrote: If painted models are a requirement for you to play the game, maybe you should switch to playing X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, or AT-43, since you don't have to rely on your opponent's capacity for paining.
Or they can simply play people with painted models? That's far easier.
Yup. After all of this I wonder at what point in this hobby, a modelling hobby to boot; something which implicitly has painting and modelling as a requirement did certain people decide that this is in fact incorrect?
Because it is not, no matter how much they dig their heels in and spit their righteous indignations about.
Charistoph wrote: If painted models are a requirement for you to play the game, maybe you should switch to playing X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, or AT-43, since you don't have to rely on your opponent's capacity for paining.
Or they can simply play people with painted models? That's far easier.
Depends on the area. Some places, there are plenty of people with painted models. Others, not so much. Whereas with X-Wing, they come pre painted, so you’re guaranteed to have a painted foe.
In some remote places you may indeed struggle to find an opponent for any wargame. In most decently populated metropolitan areas you shouldn't. You don't need to stumble upon a clan of dozens of people who only play with painted miniatures...just one or two solid people who make good opponents.
The X-Wing suggestion is a bit silly, because that implies that the person's only interest is playing "A" game with painted miniatures. You may hate Star Wars. You may dislike X-Wing. You may have a grudge against FFG or some such. If you want to play 40K, suggesting another game makes little sense.
The general subject of availability of opponents for any chosen game is an entirely different discussion.
Many people, myself included, would rather not play a game than adopt the "play at all costs" kind of attitude that a lot of people have. This is a luxury hobby, and a hobby in which you should be enjoying yourself. I'm not so desperate to play a tabletop wargame that I'll go play a game with a person I don't like, or at a store I don't like, or with miniatures/terrain that are underwhelming etc. As an adult, free time is always at a premium. If I'm going to spend 2-3 hours gaming I'm going to make the most of it, and I'd rather play against people I enjoy spending time with, in a nice environment, and I'd like to play that game at the highest level when it comes to miniatures/terrain, etc.
No one has an issue with painting being central to how you enjoy the hobby, just don’t force your views on others.
This be reasonable and goes both ways.
Dont get mad at people denying you games because you didn't want to paint your army.
that seems to be where most of these threads stem from. someone hypothetically got burned by an store or event because that private entity decided to gate-keep their community with painting restrictions.
No one has an issue with painting being central to how you enjoy the hobby, just don’t force your views on others.
This be reasonable and goes both ways.
Dont get mad at people denying you games because you didn't want to paint your army.
that seems to be where most of these threads stem from. someone hypothetically got burned by an store or event because that private entity decided to gate-keep their community with painting restrictions.
Yeah-I've literally had someone say "Oh, I only want to play against a painted army. Sorry," after we were almost about to have a game.
Was a bit annoying to me, but I get it. People have their preferences, and I ain't gonna knock them for that.
that seems to be where most of these threads stem from. someone hypothetically got burned by an store or event because that private entity decided to gate-keep their community with painting restrictions.
I have the opposite experience.
To me most of these threads seem to come from someone being told, that what THEY find important and "really crucial to the entire gaming experience" is just their opinion.
You know, with as rare as it is for me to squeeze in a game at current, I would hardly turn away a game with someone in the editions I play solely because of painted minis, and I'd assume the player would feel the same.
That being said, ideally I wouldn't drop an army on the table unless it was painted. We used to hold to that ideal solely because of taking pride in our armies. Then as I was building a force, one that I expanded faster than my painiting schedule allowed, people constantly asked me to run them as it was not an army played in the store very often. I capitulated, and I'm pretty sure I NEVER finished painting that army before I traded it off for a different project.
Charistoph wrote: If painted models are a requirement for you to play the game, maybe you should switch to playing X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, or AT-43, since you don't have to rely on your opponent's capacity for paining.
Or they can simply play people with painted models? That's far easier.
Which is why I suggested moving to a game where the chances of playing against unpainted models is nill.
Elbows wrote:The X-Wing suggestion is a bit silly, because that implies that the person's only interest is playing "A" game with painted miniatures. You may hate Star Wars. You may dislike X-Wing. You may have a grudge against FFG or some such. If you want to play 40K, suggesting another game makes little sense.
Good thing I mentioned something else, then. But seriously, if painted models are that important to you, your options are to offer to paint the other player's models or move to a system where going against painted models isn't a problem.
I'm pointing out that the painted models is the individual's demand.
Good thing that there are areas in which painted armies is the standard so it doesnt matter if its 40k or X-wing if you want to play against painted models.
Unpainted models and armies are frowned upon around here. Badly painted due to lack of skill or work in progress painted armies on the other hand isnt frowned upon at all. You can have expectations of having painted armies and be welcoming at the same time.
Probably more pure 40k painter and Collectors than there are pure 40k gamers who dislike to paint out there so having the armies be painted makes it easier and more inviting for the painter to try to actually play with their models as well and not just have them sitting on a shelf. Good for the growth of the hobby and game both.
Klickor wrote: Good thing that there are areas in which painted armies is the standard so it doesnt matter if its 40k or X-wing if you want to play against painted models.
Unpainted models and armies are frowned upon around here. Badly painted due to lack of skill or work in progress painted armies on the other hand isnt frowned upon at all. You can have expectations of having painted armies and be welcoming at the same time.
Probably more pure 40k painter and Collectors than there are pure 40k gamers who dislike to paint out there so having the armies be painted makes it easier and more inviting for the painter to try to actually play with their models as well and not just have them sitting on a shelf. Good for the growth of the hobby and game both.
Around here people are just happy to be able to play games. The state of paint has no impact on our enjoyment.
Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.
Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.
Just Tony wrote: You know, with as rare as it is for me to squeeze in a game at current, I would hardly turn away a game with someone in the editions I play solely because of painted minis, and I'd assume the player would feel the same.
That being said, ideally I wouldn't drop an army on the table unless it was painted. We used to hold to that ideal solely because of taking pride in our armies.
I used to have the same dilemma, feeling like if I put stuff on the table and it wasn't painted--I was doing it wrong or just trying to throw stuff out there.
But then I started realizing that I wasn't hopping armies as quick as some of the locals were as they focused upon doing quick paints for their armies so they can play before dumping them for the next thing...mine are slowly getting built up, slowly getting painted, and the paintjobs look a bit more realistic compared to the drybrushed, shaded, and color primed ones I would see.
I did not paint my armies, because I did not have the time. Worse, I did not enjoy it.
Now that I am older, I enjoy painting more as a separation from my busy life. I still do not enjoy it, but I like the end product and I like decompressing and detaching from the stress of the world. I can focus on painting and the people with me easier.
Another thing that helped my painting is that I stopped trying to do it alone and isolated all the time. Instead, I paint with my family who are doing their own craft stuff. Now it is more of a family time activity, instead of taking time away from them.
Elbows wrote: Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.
Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.
Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.
Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1
Elbows wrote: Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.
Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.
Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.
Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1
I'm not going to lie, that was a hard post to read. You need to work on explaining what you're trying to say. Try again?
I don't play in tournaments, or "tournament packs", etc. I don't even play 40K at the moment. I'm genuinely lost in what your last sentence is trying to say. Equally active in what? So if someone doesn't want to play with unpainted figures because they don't enjoy it, they're...whatever it is you tried to say in the second half?
You still haven't explained how playing a different game is a mandatory solution for people who enjoy playing with painted miniatures.
Because I can't prime right now, stupid British winter, you better believe once we hit the good times (all what, 20 good priming days we get a year...) I'll be painting plenty
chromedog wrote: If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.
PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.
Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.
That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I do paint my models. Just slowly and very sporadically because I'm lazy. I have the bonus of owning a lot that is painted though, and playing with a group of people who all have tons of painted stuff so we can all have multiple options in any game we play unless it's brand new to us all
Elbows wrote: Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.
Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.
Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.
Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1
You are 100% entitled to choose whom you play with you know? Nobody is forced to play game if they don't want to. So if somebody doesn't want to play against unpainted stuff a) he has every right to deny b) opponent sounds just entitled kid if he starts to complain opponent doesn't play vs him. Nobody is required to play vs anybody. Period.
chromedog wrote: If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.
PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.
Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.
That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
So you should do something unfun rather than save your time and not do the unfun thing?
Weird. There's this saying "don't throw good money after bad". You aren't supposed to play if you don't find it fun just because there's game available that you don't enjoy.
Elbows wrote: Charistoph: You didn't really address the points I made? Someone shouldn't go play another game if they like the game they're playing...that makes no sense.
Likewise, your options are not: "offer to paint their army", or "move systems"...you simply...play people who actually paint their armies in the game you enjoy. That's a completely reasonable/common option. I enjoy that you seem to be trying to vilify people who have a different standard than you.
Because your points are equally as sensible. Gating your games to being with only painted models would be akin to only playing games against armies you can win against, or only with people who have the same point tally as you, or will only play with the same tournament pack as you.
Mostly, I'm just pointing out that if painted models are so much of an issue, then you need to be equally active in making sure you can do so, removed - Rule #1
You are 100% entitled to choose whom you play with you know? Nobody is forced to play game if they don't want to. So if somebody doesn't want to play against unpainted stuff a) he has every right to deny b) opponent sounds just entitled kid if he starts to complain opponent doesn't play vs him. Nobody is required to play vs anybody. Period.
chromedog wrote: If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.
PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.
Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.
That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
So you should do something unfun rather than save your time and not do the unfun thing?
Weird. There's this saying "don't throw good money after bad". You aren't supposed to play if you don't find it fun just because there's game available that you don't enjoy.
But... how does a few colors change the "fun" of the game? Does it somehow affect dice rolls or tactics?
chromedog wrote: If the choice is between playing against unpainted or not playing a game for a while, I'll take the latter.
PLAYING the game is only one leg of a tripod, not the only leg of a monopod.
Painting and assembling are the other 2, and I'm quite happy to stick with those 2 while I wait.
That seems like an odd choice for a number of reasons. I'm not sure too many would agree the 3 legs of the hobby are assembling, painting and playing for a start. Assembling and painting are pretty much always seen as the same thing by everyone I've ever met. Refusing to do one of the 3 legs as you call them also seems counterproductive. I get the need to have standards but refusing to play at all (i.e. take part in one of the supposedly 3 parts to the hobby) seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
So you should do something unfun rather than save your time and not do the unfun thing?
Weird. There's this saying "don't throw good money after bad". You aren't supposed to play if you don't find it fun just because there's game available that you don't enjoy.
I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.
Depends on if you come to wargaming as a spectacle or as a game.
Many old school gamers got into wargaming for the "look" and "spectacle" of it all. That trumps gameplay even, since a game you play that does not have the right look and spectacle is not worth playing.
Many gamers got into it for the game and competition of it all. Therefore, it makes no sense to not play a game when one is on offer.
The two mindsets will never understand each other, because on the internet no one WANTS to understand each other. You score points by being willfully obtuse. I have seen the rules of the internet, so it is objective fact.*
* Warning: Post may or may not have objective facts in it.
40k for me is mostly about the spectacle. I can play to teach or help a friend try new models but I prefer painted and thats why Im in it. Games like Warmachine or Blood Bowl is more for the gameplay but since its so few models I expect painted even more since it makes it look better and not having painted models a while in to the game just looks lazy. So even the games I play for the actual gameplay I want painted. Its just better that way and also usually makes it easier to see what is what and speeds up the game a bit as well.
Its not that unpainted makes the game actually worse but unless you play it soley for the rules and not at all for the background and good looking models it removes a large part of what makes the game fun for many.
Its like film. Black and white doesnt make the story worse or make the performance of the actors worse but I prefer it with beautiful colors in crisp definition with modern special effect thank you. You are welcome to have a retro film club and watch it in black and white but dont force me to join you. I rather go IMax with others than enjoy that even though its more effort/expensive. If you want to see a movie with me Im sorry but thats only gonna happen in color.
Like Klickor and Easy E said - the game is quite the visual.
I previously played quite a bit of 6-10mm Scale. My War of the Roses army isn't going to be unpainted. Imagine seas of metal minis in close rank and file engaging with other historical armies of white metal.
I do however agree with the post here that there is a time you shouldn't paint your minis. When a player is tournament playtesting a new list. I know a ton of local players who have hired services to paint untils that were terrible in events becuase they wrote the list before trying it out. This is extremely popular in Warmachine.
Slipspace wrote: I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.
From what I understand, the difference is whether you are playing WH40k as a wargame or if you are playing it as a tabletop board game.
Wargaming is closer to having a model railway - it's more about having epic or historic scenes unfold while moving about models and less about either side actually winning the game. Just like you wouldn't run an unpainted train through your beautifully crafted landscape, those people wouldn't want an unpainted tank lumbering over their battlefield.
All assuming rational people, of course. There are also people who throw a fit because a vibrating mobile phone ruins their immersion or because you painted your apothecary in a non-canon color. Feth them.
In any case, neither the wargamers nor the tabletop players are wrong. However, anyone claiming either is not properly participating in the hobby most definitely is wrong.
Slipspace wrote: I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.
From what I understand, the difference is whether you are playing WH40k as a wargame or if you are playing it as a tabletop board game.
Wargaming is closer to having a model railway - it's more about having epic or historic scenes unfold while moving about models and less about either side actually winning the game. Just like you wouldn't run an unpainted train through your beautifully crafted landscape, those people wouldn't want an unpainted tank lumbering over their battlefield.
All assuming rational people, of course. There are also people who throw a fit because a vibrating mobile phone ruins their immersion or because you painted your apothecary in a non-canon color. Feth them.
In any case, neither the wargamers nor the tabletop players are wrong. However, anyone claiming either is not properly participating in the hobby most definitely is wrong.
I object to your exact wording-to me, a wargame is a simulation of war in game format. Armies fighting other armies, attempting to achieve objectives. It has nothing to do with spectacle.
Your general point, though, is a good one-I merely think you chose the wrong term.
Slipspace wrote: I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.
As Jidmah alluded to, I have played a couple hundred tabletop games (board games, card games, war games, rpgs, etc.) and find the actual game part of Warhammer 40k to be in the bottom 25% of all everything I have played before. Without the spectacle and immersive elements of painted armies (and players having a bit of personal lore on their stuff) the game seems like a kinda a waste of my time if I am playing Marlon Rando most of the time. Though, there is a occasional diamond in the rough gaming moments. More often than not, the game is basically already decided before the first miniature hits the table. Even if it isn't, there really doesn't seem to be that many 'decision points' (read: parts of the game where a player makes a meaningful choice to pursue one choice over another) compared to most mediocre or better board games post-2012.. So why would I want to commit to a few hours of looking at a random collection of stuff passing for terrain and gray/silver bits with a stranger in an activity that probably won't even be a contest for the winner? I don't have the kind of free time to take that risk as much these days. At least with painted stuff I can something at least visually simulating.
I can't spend more than a couple nights at the FLGS so if spectacle nor social element aren't really there, and I want to play a game that feels like fair match of wit and luck, I might as well go to the board game night instead. It is just a better experience for that kind of thing for me. Now unpainted stuff doesn't bother me too much if isn't my stuff. However, I will fully admit I don't really bother driving through Friday night traffic to park a few blocks away carrying a couple of cases of models just to get play a game of 40K against a person that has unpainted and barely built models. That is too many things creating resistance to play a game I only kinda acceptable to play.
I actually enjoy just walking around during tournaments even for games I don't play just to see what others have done with their forces. Far more than I ever would actually playing in a tournament. I am just not a tournament kind of player. It is always neat to me to see what kind of local artistry of other miniatures painters. I also really appreciate the gamer paint jobs as they usually aren't as good as painting competition models. However, there is something about a person's whole army on display over a single well done piece. I don't know, whole armies just feel more honest rock n' roll to me compared to a single well done piece. So a lot of time it is much like the enjoyment I would get walking through an art museum.
Last and certainly least, my personal experience as been that nearly all all my bad gaming experiences from my opponent have been facing unpainted models. I am excluding new players, of course, and I am mostly speaking of players that have had unpainted army(s) but has been playing for years. I not saying that all games against unpainted armies are always bad experiences. Just like I am not saying that all painted armies owners are always going to be good experiences. I am just saying that my personal experience has been that I haven't really met a person with a fully painted army that was unbearable to play, but I have a few times with players that didn't. I also don't think it is fair to lump all unpainted army players in with the few bad apples. However, my experience has lead me to be weary of anyone that has been miniatures war gaming for years but has never painted their stuff. Even if they are a decent person and player, we probably aren't looking to get the same thing out of our game leading to disappoint for both parties. Often best just not risk it since I would rather not game at all than spend a few hours feeling like I am work but not getting paid.
Slipspace wrote: I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.
From what I understand, the difference is whether you are playing WH40k as a wargame or if you are playing it as a tabletop board game.
Wargaming is closer to having a model railway - it's more about having epic or historic scenes unfold while moving about models and less about either side actually winning the game. Just like you wouldn't run an unpainted train through your beautifully crafted landscape, those people wouldn't want an unpainted tank lumbering over their battlefield.
All assuming rational people, of course. There are also people who throw a fit because a vibrating mobile phone ruins their immersion or because you painted your apothecary in a non-canon color. Feth them.
In any case, neither the wargamers nor the tabletop players are wrong. However, anyone claiming either is not properly participating in the hobby most definitely is wrong.
I object to your exact wording-to me, a wargame is a simulation of war in game format. Armies fighting other armies, attempting to achieve objectives. It has nothing to do with spectacle.
Your general point, though, is a good one-I merely think you chose the wrong term.
I think Jidmah's right about the spectacle, they're just missing the "miniature" part of "miniature wargaming." If we were pure wargamers only concerned about the simulation, we'd only be playing hex-and-counter wargames where the mechanics of the game take priority over how the game actually looks. Heroes of Black Reach from Devil Pig Games does that for 40k, funny enough. If you want a tactical experience over a visual experience I very much recommend HoBR since it gives a good "feeling" of 40k with a good set of tactical rules. At the very least, if we were more concerned about the simulation, then we'd be playing with wooden blocks, cardboard chits or paper cutouts to represent squads or even individuals. None of which needs much investment in terms of time and can still look pretty good if done well.
But we're here for the pageantry of the little plastic, resin, and metal toys we put on the table as we are for the dice rolling. And part of that involves the painting thereof.
I would rather only play people who make the effort to paint their models (even if their force is in-progress) because I only want to play against people who are like-minded and are as gung-ho about the hobby as I am. I don't think it's high minded of me to think that way, it's just because during a game it's another thing I enjoy that I can talk about with my opponent.
To me the hobby side of miniatures wargaming is the entire point, otherwise it's easier to play video games where the work is done for you and you can just enjoy the mechanics. I want to see other people's cool spin on things, and have my own work be driven forward by some healthy competition over who can show up with the coolest ideas. And THEN have some fun playing the game with those ideas.
Honestly, not having any inclination to model or paint forces is right up there with people who moan about how much work it is to make terrain to play on. If someone doesn't like any part of the handiwork side of wargaming, then minis wargaming is a really wierd hobby to get into versus all the boardgames that can give the same feel without the work (Heroes of Normandie and Heroes of Black Reach are my absolute favorites in that realm. They give all the mechanical experiences of a minis game other than the actual minis, yet still have forces and battlefields look awesome.)
I mean, minis gaming can be perfectly rewarding if all the terrain and models are left unpainted, but it loses some of it's soul at the same time.
While I do paint and actually paint well , tho slowly. I really don't care if my miniatures are painted or not. I am in it for the gaming mostly and I don't care if the rules are simple, good or bad and I don't like boardgames. So all you fellows who think people who don't paint should play something else well "That's like your opinion, man". I play miniature wargames because I played with toy soldier's as a kid. I played cool battles with my mono colored toy soldier's too but I never considered painting the things and wouldn't have anyway. Fast forward to now and I just consider miniature wargames an extension of toy soldiering. If you feel this hobby is some sort of artistic expression then good for you but don't pretend to force your standards on those of us who don't feel the same. Maybe this is why I prefer to solo game these days, so much freedom!
Kenshinzo 7: Check out Rangers of Shadow Deep! It can be single player and you don't have to paint/use offical models. You can use whatever you have laying around. You may want to check out Kings of War or some of the smaller scale Age of Sigmar games (Beastgrave). I have a friend who prints out his squares for KoW and they dont even need minis!
You're right on the second point as well! We're all nerds playing with little plastic toys for some fake cinematic meet up at a comic shop to roll some dice to represent a fantasy we're having. It's whatever your mind can visualize. The Red little men fighting the blue bugs and so on. I didnt bother to paint Space Hulk for the same reason.
I'm in the entire hobby for terrain and storyline. Frostgrave and Mordheim are my favorite games right now since it has what I'm looking for.
Slipspace wrote: I'm genuinely confused how people can find playing against unpainted armies unfun to the point they will refuse a game against them. Doubly so when the poster I replied to specifically said gaming was one part of the hobby as a whole and then said they wouldn't take part in that side of the hobby with someone who hadn't taken part in one of the other (rather arbitrarily designated) parts of the hobby. Like, I understand you'd prefer to play on a brilliantly modelled board with fantastic terrain against a well-painted army, and I think all gamers would probably prefer that as the pinnacle of the hobby, but I just can't understand a situation where someone says no to a game because the opponent hasn't painted their army, especially because the poster in question specifically said they'd wait and not play at all until such an opponent materialises. So if no such opponent exists in their area they just wouldn't play? Yeah, not too logical to me.
From what I understand, the difference is whether you are playing WH40k as a wargame or if you are playing it as a tabletop board game.
Wargaming is closer to having a model railway - it's more about having epic or historic scenes unfold while moving about models and less about either side actually winning the game. Just like you wouldn't run an unpainted train through your beautifully crafted landscape, those people wouldn't want an unpainted tank lumbering over their battlefield.
All assuming rational people, of course. There are also people who throw a fit because a vibrating mobile phone ruins their immersion or because you painted your apothecary in a non-canon color. Feth them.
In any case, neither the wargamers nor the tabletop players are wrong. However, anyone claiming either is not properly participating in the hobby most definitely is wrong.
I object to your exact wording-to me, a wargame is a simulation of war in game format. Armies fighting other armies, attempting to achieve objectives. It has nothing to do with spectacle.
Your general point, though, is a good one-I merely think you chose the wrong term.
I think Jidmah's right about the spectacle, they're just missing the "miniature" part of "miniature wargaming." If we were pure wargamers only concerned about the simulation, we'd only be playing hex-and-counter wargames where the mechanics of the game take priority over how the game actually looks. Heroes of Black Reach from Devil Pig Games does that for 40k, funny enough. If you want a tactical experience over a visual experience I very much recommend HoBR since it gives a good "feeling" of 40k with a good set of tactical rules. At the very least, if we were more concerned about the simulation, then we'd be playing with wooden blocks, cardboard chits or paper cutouts to represent squads or even individuals. None of which needs much investment in terms of time and can still look pretty good if done well.
But we're here for the pageantry of the little plastic, resin, and metal toys we put on the table as we are for the dice rolling. And part of that involves the painting thereof.
No it isn’t. It’s only part of it if you want it to be. Having painted models is not a requirement to play the game. if I don’t have paint on my tank it’s not going to effect my dice rolls.
As I've said before in other threads, anyone who doesn't like how my miniatures are painted (or not) is welcome to paint them for me. My hobby, my time, my interests. Sometimes I paint, sometimes I don't, and it's always as the creative mood strikes. I'll eventually get my army painted, but in the meantime, play against me how it is or paint it yourself.
Also as a note, I've literally never had anyone turn me away for not having a painted army, but then, I don't go to tournies. Tournaments are welcome to have whatever rules they like, and so are individuals. Just know, going into a game with me, if you don't want to play against unpainted models, you should say so up front. And again, feel free to paint my models for me to the standard you expect. I won't mind.
You don't have to paint or even use models for whatever reason you want, your stuff just looks bad. You are welcome to have no standards and violate basic convention because you don't want to paint. Nobody will give you crap about it outside of discussion about the necessity of paint here, in reality people don't care and will keep quiet about how bad your stuff looks and politely decline/avoid with some excuse.
Irkjoe wrote: You don't have to paint or even use models for whatever reason you want, your stuff just looks bad. You are welcome to have no standards and violate basic convention because you don't want to paint. Nobody will give you crap about it outside of discussion about the necessity of paint here, in reality people don't care and will keep quiet about how bad your stuff looks and politely decline/avoid with some excuse.
We probably know each other. Our local area in Philly has a ton of talented painters and besides the warmachine crowd most players paint around Philly. (North/Coastal NJ has a ton of Warmahordes players with nicely painted armies actually).
I feel like it depends on your local store. When I started wargaming at a Gamesworkshop store as a teenager they had a rule for Veteran's night required fully painted and based models. I was used to that and participating in events. The few Dakka members here that do not paint also stated they do not attend tournaments or tend to play solo or elsewhere.
Irkjoe wrote: You don't have to paint or even use models for whatever reason you want, your stuff just looks bad. You are welcome to have no standards and violate basic convention because you don't want to paint. Nobody will give you crap about it outside of discussion about the necessity of paint here, in reality people don't care and will keep quiet about how bad your stuff looks and politely decline/avoid with some excuse.
My stuff looks fine, in my opinion, and mine is as valid as yours. I have fine standards - they just involve gameplay and sportsmanship rather than whether or not I slapped a certain number of pigments on a toy. Also, convention can climb a tree. There's no basic convention about having painted models, though there is a trend. As many games in my area are played with painted models as without, and no one says anything about "convention." Pfath. Convention is the weakest possible argument for painting, it's the "we've always done it this way!" of this argument.
EDIT: Also, thanks for being condescending, insulting, and downright rude about your response.
Irkjoe wrote: You don't have to paint or even use models for whatever reason you want, your stuff just looks bad. You are welcome to have no standards and violate basic convention because you don't want to paint. Nobody will give you crap about it outside of discussion about the necessity of paint here, in reality people don't care and will keep quiet about how bad your stuff looks and politely decline/avoid with some excuse.
My stuff looks fine, in my opinion, and mine is as valid as yours. I have fine standards - they just involve gameplay and sportsmanship rather than whether or not I slapped a certain number of pigments on a toy. Also, convention can climb a tree. There's no basic convention about having painted models, though there is a trend. As many games in my area are played with painted models as without, and no one says anything about "convention." Pfath. Convention is the weakest possible argument for painting, it's the "we've always done it this way!" of this argument.
EDIT: Also, thanks for being condescending, insulting, and downright rude about your response.
Take it however you want, the point is that hobby miniature games are supposed to be painted as opposed to unpainted. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, that's the intent. There is something to be said about paint adding to the game in the same way that models do. If you are only concerned with gameplay and sports then you can do that with token proxies.
Fine if you don't want to paint, your time and money. But no matter how you rationalize it, your stuff still looks bad.
I’d be curious to know how the folks who won’t play against unpainted minis would react if offered to play against someone with a horrible paint job - say, were someone’s minis looked as if they had been painted with playdoh (for lack of a better example).
Now, in addition to my statement above, I'll play someone who has a grey horde of minis, but I'll also fully and honestly admit that at the same time I'll be a bit disappointed that my painting efforts are existing in a vacuum, regardless of how good they are. I would gladly play someone with horribly painted minis than ones that just look like they are dumped out of the box, because I recognize enthusiasm, even if it's unpolished.
To me "person who just isn't into the hobby side of things" is a level or two below "person who doesn't really care to engage you in friendly banter during the game". I'm not going to openly snub them because that's not what functioning adults do, but things not being reciprocated from across the table is a bit lonely in such a social hobby and bums me out.
It's like when I try to get gamers in my area interested in other minis games I find interesting, and the response is "Meh, we just play 40k around here because that's all anyone plays". So, like....branch out?
Stormonu wrote: I’d be curious to know how the folks who won’t play against unpainted minis would react if offered to play against someone with a horrible paint job - say, were someone’s minis looked as if they had been painted with playdoh (for lack of a better example).
I don't decline games with players with unpainted models, or else I wouldn't get in any games as I think less than 1/10th the players in my army seem to have much more than primer color for their army That said, I can say playing someone with horribly painted models would likely still be preferred depending on the intent. I see horrible paint jobs going one of two basic ways.
The first is someone that is pretty new/young to the hobby went out got some models and some craft store paints and went wild with them. These models are caked in so thick of paint someone might not even be sure what the model underneath was. That shows effort, enthusiasm and spirit to try. With better supplies, knowledge and patience those players are likely to paint just as well as me or better and if they continue in the hobby probably will. These players are probably going to be fun to play even if their excitement is a little much sometimes.
On the other hand, there are those who habitually toe the line. A tournament says all models need 3 colors up so their models are replicas of the French or Italian flag in rattle can paint colors. They seem to revel in constantly putting in the minimum effort or pushing the letter of the rules while completely disregarding the spirit. They are exactly the sort of player I am practically guaranteed to have a horrid time spending a few hours around. Honestly, it would be much easier to say I don't play opponents that don't have fully painted and based models since that is far less of a tedious argument, and there's going to be an argument from them, of 'what is fully painted and based?' compared to 'I am not breaking any rules here or this is what the book says or your GSC Neophytes are 55 points per model and you are cheating because you treat them as 5ppm.' That kind of stuff. That is the more extreme, exaggerated kind of examples, but I think I am getting my point across. I don't think I am going to have any fun playing a game with them, and I suspect the only fun they are going have is at my expense.
Like I said, I haven't yet had an issue with an opponent with a painted army (I am sure I will some day though). I have few issues with opponents with unpainted armies though including a lesser version of the 'That Guy' in the paragraph above. Again, I try to not let it bias me too much, as correlation doesn't imply causation.
AegisGrimm wrote: Now, in addition to my statement above, I'll play someone who has a grey horde of minis, but I'll also fully and honestly admit that at the same time I'll be a bit disappointed that my painting efforts are existing in a vacuum, regardless of how good they are. I would gladly play someone with horribly painted minis than ones that just look like they are dumped out of the box, because I recognize enthusiasm, even if it's unpolished.
To me "person who just isn't into the hobby side of things" is a level or two below "person who doesn't really care to engage you in friendly banter during the game". I'm not going to openly snub them because that's not what functioning adults do, but things not being reciprocated from across the table is a bit lonely in such a social hobby and bums me out.
It's like when I try to get gamers in my area interested in other minis games I find interesting, and the response is "Meh, we just play 40k around here because that's all anyone plays". So, like....branch out?
The hobby side is two seperate things not one, I love the modeling, but I hate painting.
And as for branching out, that requires sinking more money into other games.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: The hobby side is two seperate things not one, I love the modeling, but I hate painting.
It is all how you look at things. I see modeling and painting as one thing kinda like a road. You have to travel down one part of the road to get to the other (but not vice-sersa). I mean I guess you could paint everything on the sprue and not build anything ever, but let's pretend no one does that. Point is, I wouldn't consider walking down part of a road then walking down the other part two separate roads. Just like I wouldn't consider only walking down part of a road as the whole road either and the part I haven't as a second road.
I mean I hate modeling, but it is required to paint. I know sucks to be me. At least you get to walk down the part of the road and stop before the part you don't like if you want to.
AegisGrimm wrote: Now, in addition to my statement above, I'll play someone who has a grey horde of minis, but I'll also fully and honestly admit that at the same time I'll be a bit disappointed that my painting efforts are existing in a vacuum, regardless of how good they are. I would gladly play someone with horribly painted minis than ones that just look like they are dumped out of the box, because I recognize enthusiasm, even if it's unpolished.
To me "person who just isn't into the hobby side of things" is a level or two below "person who doesn't really care to engage you in friendly banter during the game". I'm not going to openly snub them because that's not what functioning adults do, but things not being reciprocated from across the table is a bit lonely in such a social hobby and bums me out.
It's like when I try to get gamers in my area interested in other minis games I find interesting, and the response is "Meh, we just play 40k around here because that's all anyone plays". So, like....branch out?
The hobby side is two seperate things not one, I love the modeling, but I hate painting.
And as for branching out, that requires sinking more money into other games.
True about the modelling. But when I say "hobby side of things" I mean people who play minis wargames but oddly are not into making cool models, terrain, OR painting. Which seems like a boring way to enjoy the hobby, at least to me. It's like saying "I am into model trains", but only owning a bare plastic train, on some track, on a blank green piece of fabric. I wanna make cool little fantasy worlds and then play in them!
A good chunk off-topic, but as for branching out, there's tons of games, especially those at skirmish scale, which are miniatures agnostic (not tied to any specific line). For instance, I own Star Breach, Rogue Planet and Grimdark Future, to name just three, and all of those can use 40k models perfectly fine with no midifications, as well as tons of other minis. I own at least a couple of fantasy rulesets that can use AoS/WHF models. But my area is heavily, heavily biased towards GW product being seen as "more legitimate" than Indie games, like they are the only good game publisher in the world.
Or games that are barely more expensive than the rules and/or templates to play, like Gaslands.
Thats fine. I'd still play you if you were using grey out of the box minis, I'd just be (inwardly) disappointed that I don't get to see your cool ideas shown off.
I see wargaming as just another form of show and tell, even if having kids means I barely have time for painting anymore.
Way too boring/repeating, thats why.
Do not help that i am obsessed by painting at my max ability on every single model i do(and that means sub assembly painting on even the moust basic trooper)
I can paint max two identical models but never more. So no army games unless i buy one pre painted on ebay.
At this point I have so many painted models that storing them is more of an issue than having enough. I feel like a lot of people see painting as some miserable chore because they make themselves miserable while doing it - sitting in silence at a table under a harsh light in a basement, painting on a dry palette with paint that goes chunky after 5 minutes and goes on terrible.
To me painting is just something I do with my hands when I'm watching TV or listening to music, it's focusing and relaxing at the same time. I also use pretty much every speedpainting/shortcut type tactic available, and don't rigidly adhere to the same scheme for 10,000pts of models.
I'll never refuse to play someone just because their models are unpainted, but I definitely would take a game against someone who I knew had a painted army over someone without one. It's pretty high up on the priority list, below "is the person just a miserable guy to play with" and "am I really not in the mood for the type of game this person wants to play"
Time... I average 500-600 hours of OT every year at work so when I am home I prefer to spend the time with my family and friends. This year me and my friend have been trying to get some painting done instead of playing video games and its helped out a lot. I only have a few more Imperial Fists to paint and ill have my first army painted since 5th ed.
Priming seems to be my worst hurdle, I don't have any place inside to prime without stinking up the house. That usually upsets the Mrs.
And if I try to do it outside the weather has to be almost perfect weather or I get figures I have to end up stripping to remove the messed up prime coat.
Next is remembering what I need to prime because I usually put everything up (clean house) so stuff that was assembled is out of sight out of mind.
Genoside07 wrote: Priming seems to be my worst hurdle, I don't have any place inside to prime without stinking up the house. That usually upsets the Mrs.
And if I try to do it outside the weather has to be almost perfect weather or I get figures I have to end up stripping to remove the messed up prime coat.
Next is remembering what I need to prime because I usually put everything up (clean house) so stuff that was assembled is out of sight out of mind.
Any suggestions I would love them...
If you can afford it invest in an airbrush. You can get a folded booth to go with it that you can set up spray and then put away.
Airbrush priming is fantastic. I use cans when the weather is nice as well but airbrush is just better and its kind of hard to screw up and loose details/get grainy texture. .
I think once my current cans are done I'll be going exclusively airbrush.
Frankly, I have solved the "Time for Painting" problem by drifting away from large army-scale games. in the time it takes me to paint a squad of near-identical troops for a basic unit, I can paint an entire unique skirmish force. So as GW games kept getting larger and larger, I found that for the same time and money to field a single army, I could have 4-5 factions for one or more skirmish games.
The last true army-scaled game I played was AT-43, because the troops were all prepaints that I just had to do a few touch-ups on, and focus instead on terrain.
I think most people who don't paint from GW game perspectives just don't because why bother?
The tables are usually bland, boring, uninteresting and dull.
The games are decided by the lists long before a single die is rolled.
90% of the game is bickering over rules inbetween excessive rolling.
You remove entire units in short time.
Allot of people don't really care for background or theme only meta.
It's gonna be on ebay soon.
So what's the incentive to having anything painted?
And that might sound harsh and I'll have people whinging and my comment deleted and ANOTHER temp ban.
But it's all true really.
ValentineGames wrote: I think most people who don't paint from GW game perspectives just don't because why bother?
The tables are usually bland, boring, uninteresting and dull.
The games are decided by the lists long before a single die is rolled.
90% of the game is bickering over rules inbetween excessive rolling.
You remove entire units in short time.
Allot of people don't really care for background or theme only meta.
It's gonna be on ebay soon.
So what's the incentive to having anything painted?
And that might sound harsh and I'll have people whinging and my comment deleted and ANOTHER temp ban.
But it's all true really.
Well, I suppose with that attitude you should probably take it back another couple of steps. Why build the models if that is all true, or better yet why spend a non-insignificant amount of money (for most people).
It is not like it is impossible to try out Warhammer 40k before purchasing a single miniature. A person could always pick up Tabletop Simulator to see if the game is something they might enjoy. Conversely, they could try and get a demo game in.
I am a very strong proponent in a person picking an army they like the look and lore of. Rules change, with increasing frequency these days, and unless you want to chase the dragon your army is very likely to cycle through ups and downs. But a nice paint job is always going to be there even if you get frustrated at the game and put your army on the shelf for a while.
To answer you more directly, tables are only as dull as the players make the out to be. The spoiler has some of my Kill Team boards with the terrain I built and painted myself last year. At this point, I am starting to have enough to put together a nice 6'x4' table and a fantastic one combined with similar GW terrain my FLGS also has. It took some amount of work, but I think the extra effort is worth it fore a more attractive looking battlefield. Sure, with 40k's current terrain rules a lot of it is just decoration. Still worth it to me.
Spoiler:
I am not about to disagree with you the game can be both tedious and/or frustrating at times. Especially with people who want to rule grub every little thing and have no more love for the gray plastic 'Iron Warrior' Intercessors as they have that they would a Rook in chess. I have no interest in play optimized army (read: competitive) 40k. So I have on interest in playing such players. I think 40k works far better when both players build armies with stuff they like and everyone in the group sort of adjusts the power level to a sort of common level within a group. This is hardly the best solution of course. And I know a good deal of Dakkanauts say we shouldn't do GW's job for them. I am not going to argue with them and say they are wrong. Because they really aren't. But the game is what it is, and we can complain that GW knocked over the milk and spilled or we can grab a towel and clean it up and make it into something we and our opponent fine enjoyable. So long as we find like minded individuals.
Because those few times when 40k actually works with both players wanting the same thing out of the game and willing to make the compromises to get it work the game can be magical. I am pretty sure anyone that has been of Dakka Dakka for a while has had at least one of those magical games in life to continue to frequent a 40k focused forum so much. I think a lot of the negatively comes from the fact that those magical games become fewer and fewer as the reality of what the actual quality of the game becomes more apparent. I continue to be amazing in the hope that the next rule alteration will be the one that turns 40k into a great game when we all should realize that it might be a little better but still probably a good distance from where we want it to be.
Me, I had the fortune to play a good deal of other miniatures war games before walking into GW's walled garden. I knew I was walking into a mediocre game. I was sold on the models as someone that learned to enjoy painting from previous games. Later I enjoyed the lore. I even enjoy playing Kill Team which I is a surprisingly good game even with a few rough spots. I can't say I have enjoyed full 40k to that level though I have like a few of the games I have liked well enough.
TL;DR:
I think the incentive to paint your models is that they are rather nice models (and some of the easiest I have ever painted) and look very nice all painted up. Two well painted armies on a table with terrain given equal care is a thing of beauty to behold. The game may be a little weak, but it isn't like GW is the only tabletop game creator out there. Those other games might not be miniatures war games or they might be much harder to find players for compared to GW's stuff.
“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.”
ValentineGames wrote: I think most people who don't paint from GW game perspectives just don't because why bother?
The tables are usually bland, boring, uninteresting and dull.
The games are decided by the lists long before a single die is rolled.
90% of the game is bickering over rules inbetween excessive rolling.
You remove entire units in short time.
Allot of people don't really care for background or theme only meta.
It's gonna be on ebay soon.
So what's the incentive to having anything painted?
And that might sound harsh and I'll have people whinging and my comment deleted and ANOTHER temp ban.
But it's all true really.
Honestly sounds like if those are your particular thoughts then you should stay away from GW stuff and have fun with other companies' games. There are a LOT of fun ones out there to be seen once the big elephant in the room is out of the picture. A couple of the skirmish games I like can actually have models regain health during a game, so there's more time for cool looking and painted models to shine on the table, rather than being disposable pawns. There's times when that put me off painting large armies, too.
Scenery is the third army in a game, when it comes to modelling and painting.
ValentineGames wrote: I think most people who don't paint from GW game perspectives just don't because why bother?
The tables are usually bland, boring, uninteresting and dull.
The games are decided by the lists long before a single die is rolled.
90% of the game is bickering over rules inbetween excessive rolling.
You remove entire units in short time.
Allot of people don't really care for background or theme only meta.
It's gonna be on ebay soon.
So what's the incentive to having anything painted?
And that might sound harsh and I'll have people whinging and my comment deleted and ANOTHER temp ban.
But it's all true really.
I don't think that's a true reality for anyone except for those who honestly don't want to play a miniatures wargame, let alone a miniatures wargame by GW.
I mean seriously take a step back and read your own post - there's basically zero points of interest in the whole experience from painting to playing to collecting. The only part of the hobby you've not dismissed is the actual building of the models. Although you've half dismissed it by stating that the person will ebay their army fast, which suggests little to no connection to the models.
Honestly if anyone said to me that was their experience I'd tell them to stop buying models and go try another hobby. Because clearly if they are deriving no fun from any part of a hobby why continue to spend and be part of it?
I have at least two free Indie rulesets that can be played with my GW models, so the typical GW game "chase the current meta" mentality should not be a stumbling block to modelling and painting if you like the models. I love the GW hobby as far as modelling and painting is concerned, but not necessarily the gaming.
AegisGrimm wrote: I have at least two free Indie rulesets that can be played with my GW models, so the typical GW game "chase the current meta" mentality should not be a stumbling block to modelling and painting if you like the models. I love the GW hobby as far as modelling and painting is concerned, but not necessarily the gaming.
AegisGrimm wrote: I have at least two free Indie rulesets that can be played with my GW models, so the typical GW game "chase the current meta" mentality should not be a stumbling block to modelling and painting if you like the models. I love the GW hobby as far as modelling and painting is concerned, but not necessarily the gaming.
I´m in the market for a sci-fi game playable with 40k minis to replace 40k, got any suggestions?
One Page Rules is a godsend. Especially if you are teaching non Wargamers how to play. My wife played the Fantasy version with me and had a good time, and that was NOT a forgone conclusion!
Thanks for the suggestion, it looks really good. To bring it back to the point of the thread - I haven´t painted any 40k minis in a year because I could never see myself getting into 40k again. But those rules keep the 40k factions and feel and lots of fun details in army building, while at the same time looking very playable.
I will try out a few games and that might get me painting 40k minis again.
AegisGrimm wrote: I have at least two free Indie rulesets that can be played with my GW models, so the typical GW game "chase the current meta" mentality should not be a stumbling block to modelling and painting if you like the models. I love the GW hobby as far as modelling and painting is concerned, but not necessarily the gaming.
I´m in the market for a sci-fi game playable with 40k minis to replace 40k, got any suggestions?
One Page rules has both army- and skirmish-scale versions of their two main games that can use nearly every current 40k and AoS figure. Also Star Breach is great for 40k figures, which I am also getting into.
Never let the dislike of a particular ruleset or a toxic environment that might follow (any) particular game discourage you from painting or modelling, especially with so many games out there that are miniatures company agnostic.
The two games listed above can easily be played with GW, Mantic, Infinity, or even FFG Star Wars figures, and with small forces that are perfect for beginners to learn to pain without being overwhelmed with the large forces that would require a learning painter to slog through to get fully painted. Lots of different forces let a painter try out lots of different painting styles and methods, which can be increasingly combined.
I very nearly got turned off wargaming 25+ years ago when I kept trying to wrap my mind around painting dozens of minis just for one force of 40k. But then Necromunda caught me and I found my stride.
You can also check out our own Easy E's Rampant Stars a sci-fi version based on Osprey's popular "Rampant" series of rules.
I know my preference! Thanks for the shout out!
There is also StarBreach, Rogue Stars, or Fistful of Lead.
Check out Rogue Planet, too.
Has anyone actually played this game? I own the rules and thought it looked interesting but never seen anyone talk about it ever and haven't played it myself.
AegisGrimm wrote: I have at least two free Indie rulesets that can be played with my GW models, so the typical GW game "chase the current meta" mentality should not be a stumbling block to modelling and painting if you like the models. I love the GW hobby as far as modelling and painting is concerned, but not necessarily the gaming.
^^^^^
GW makes great models. Thats about the extent of where their greatness lies. Hobbying GW models is a lot of fun. I use the models in other games that are stronger than the GW games though.
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