Seem more glass hammer like - an upping of survivability would have I thought helped them out more given their cost - say a kine shield giving an invulnerable save, or a chance to ignore damage.
Do by psy weapons they mean psycannons and stuff? because the psycannons are really bad weapons, even with the point drops. -1 to hit for being heavy, few shots. And you won't have more then 1 per 5 models, unless they are paladins. IH get a re-roll of one on their entire army, as an extra bonus among others.
But maybe there is some way to stack those or something.
The cover thing is nice, until you face an army that just ignores cover outright.
Chaplain stuff and the 2MW smite seem nice. Specialy if GW lets us extend the range easier.
The nemezis weapon one is horrible. There just isn't enough attacks for it to make a large impact. not to mention reaching melee being kind of a problem for most GK units.
I wonder if the chaplains get access to the normal marine litanies too. Because some of those are really nice.
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T1nk4bell wrote: Lolwtf no? Noone want second iron hands game killing gak
For examples of when they didn't preview the best, the BT preview had the suck-tacular LRC stratagem rather than the no-fallback or run-and-charge stratagem.
I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
Don't GK benefit from the Shock Assault rule, too? For my Salamanders that helped a lot, tbh.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: For examples of when they didn't preview the best, the BT preview had the suck-tacular LRC stratagem rather than the no-fallback or run-and-charge stratagem.
Lets hope GK will have some aweso.... ahh who am I kidding. GK prolly gonna get squatted in CA 2020. I can see it now...
“Redace all your grE knight models cust to “0” and threw those in the trush.” With faq coming soon after for clarity.
Karol wrote: yes, but think about it. A strike costs like an intercessor, but comes with 1W, a termintor costs even more. Kind of hard either in to melee range.
Well, and Strike Squads can Deep Strike, are Psykers and have better melee weapons - they're not just 1W Intercessors, just like how Intercessors aren't overpriced Strike Squads that lack Deep Strike and Psi.
I get your point, but it's not that simple.
Karol wrote: Do by psy weapons they mean psycannons and stuff? because the psycannons are really bad weapons, even with the point drops. -1 to hit for being heavy, few shots. And you won't have more then 1 per 5 models, unless they are paladins. IH get a re-roll of one on their entire army, as an extra bonus among others.
But maybe there is some way to stack those or something.
The cover thing is nice, until you face an army that just ignores cover outright.
Chaplain stuff and the 2MW smite seem nice. Specialy if GW lets us extend the range easier.
The nemezis weapon one is horrible. There just isn't enough attacks for it to make a large impact. not to mention reaching melee being kind of a problem for most GK units.
I wonder if the chaplains get access to the normal marine litanies too. Because some of those are really nice.
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T1nk4bell wrote: Lolwtf no? Noone want second iron hands game killing gak
read the rules again.
It seems like the general strategy is to start turn 1 with auto-cover and -1 to hit in cover (which, incidentally, you would still get versus something like IF, since it's an additional rule that grants you -1 to hit if you're on a terrain feature, it's not technically "Cover". Then use the power to swap to something else.
There are other rules that interact like this - Drukhari have a stratagem that grants +1 to a unit's armor save but only if they're on or in terrain, and they have stated you can still use that stratagem vs IF or other ignore cover stuff, even though you don't get the initial +1 to armor from "benefit of cover".
What you want to use second turn seems dependent on your army setup. psilencers with S5 and D3+1 damage is pretty neat. S8 and D2 might make psycannons worthwhile. But either way you'll want your list to have a ton of them. D2 smites definitely seem like the default turn 2 choice, unless you're against like Guard or some other infantry spam list, in which case you wanna stayyyy in cover all game.
Karol wrote: yes, but think about it. A strike costs like an intercessor, but comes with 1W, a termintor costs even more. Kind of hard either in to melee range.
Well, and Strike Squads can Deep Strike, are Psykers and have better melee weapons - they're not just 1W Intercessors, just like how Intercessors aren't overpriced Strike Squads that lack Deep Strike and Psi.
I get your point, but it's not that simple.
And they come with storm bolters, and they have a force weapon...it's not really a good comparison...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: For examples of when they didn't preview the best, the BT preview had the suck-tacular LRC stratagem rather than the no-fallback or run-and-charge stratagem.
Lets hope GK will have some aweso.... ahh who am I kidding. GK prolly gonna get squatted in CA 2020. I can see it now...
“Redace all your grE knight models cust to “0” and threw those in the trush.” With faq coming soon after for clarity.
+1 Strength in 8E isn’t even worthy of being called a bonus. Should be +1 bonus to Wound.
Don’t think the changes will be enough for non-GK players to elevate the army out of “trash tier”. I imagine most GK players will be happy with the changes, though.
If the GK unit sits in cover then opponent army is going to see it, unless someone is playing ITC rules with its first floor bunkers.
If a shoty marine army kills an eldar army with its -1 to hit or better, then I think it is going to be able to kill a GK army too.
And an eldar plane is tougher to then a bunch of marines.
By the way am not sad about the buff, I think having them is much better then not having them. But they seem like 2 years too late, to make the army really good.
I don;t have any psilancers, so am not sure how good they are going to be, but psycanons even at str 8 and D2 don't have to be really impactful. not when there is one per 5 models in the squads.
the rest stuff is interesting. The relic staff seems fun, and the chaplain stuff could be fun. Am not sure there is a chaplain model legal to buy though.
Karol wrote: yes, but think about it. A strike costs like an intercessor, but comes with 1W, a termintor costs even more. Kind of hard either in to melee range.
Well, and Strike Squads can Deep Strike, are Psykers and have better melee weapons - they're not just 1W Intercessors, just like how Intercessors aren't overpriced Strike Squads that lack Deep Strike and Psi.
I get your point, but it's not that simple.
Intercessors are much better then strikes. they have double resiliance. dead units don't have rules, and strikes die twice as fast. Also the guns intercessors have coupled with doctrines make each intercessor unit comperable to a strike unit affected by a 2CP GK stratagem, for free.
having nemezis weapons doesn't matter much. It doesn't help vs really stronger melee units, and vs against everything else, when or if, you reach melee you don't have enough attacks and models to really use them.
If I charge a unit of termintors in a unit of 5 intercessors, that costs less, and it has a vet sgt with a hammer, my terminators are going to die before they get to kill the intercessors. And they cost almost twice as many points.
I don't see how any of those rules make termintors or paladins more exiting options. It probably makes strikes better though.
But to be honest, it is hard to make stuff exiting after the few marine previews. so I do 2 MW on a baby smite, is 100% upgrade, but looks funny when next to something like 70+ auto hits, unkillable units or stealth centurions.
Still better to have the rules, then not to have them. Am just not sure how this is suppose to help GK be on the same tier as IH or even RG.
Comparing any new rules to the SM supplements is going to be a disappointment. Nobody got more than a solid buff from Psychic Awakening. The SM supplements are like 3rd edition supercharged codex creep.
Grey Knights are space marines. Plus GK were bad all 8th ed, and from others said they weren't that good in prior editions either. So considering that marines weren't considered good in 8th, and GK were worse then marines all 8th, GK should get better rule buffs then marine got. Specialy as the CA changes were rather cosmetic.
Pancakey wrote: Still trash tier compared to new SM. Hopefully there are a TON of unannounced additions to this.
text removed.
Wee bit OTT here.
reds8n
, i mean, we got psi doctrines, what else did you expect?
To all those not wallowing in self pity, this is a solid buff and they addressed nearly all of our shortcomings, be grateful.
D2 smites definitely seem like the default turn 2 choice, unless you're against like Guard or some other infantry spam list, in which case you wanna stayyyy in cover all game.
Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
D2 smites definitely seem like the default turn 2 choice, unless you're against like Guard or some other infantry spam list, in which case you wanna stayyyy in cover all game.
Karol wrote: I don't see how any of those rules make termintors or paladins more exiting options. It probably makes strikes better though.
But to be honest, it is hard to make stuff exiting after the few marine previews. so I do 2 MW on a baby smite, is 100% upgrade, but looks funny when next to something like 70+ auto hits, unkillable units or stealth centurions.
Still better to have the rules, then not to have them. Am just not sure how this is suppose to help GK be on the same tier as IH or even RG.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
With strata they are str9 ap 2 dmg 2 without need line of sight...
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
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MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
Karol wrote: I don't see how any of those rules make termintors or paladins more exiting options. It probably makes strikes better though.
But to be honest, it is hard to make stuff exiting after the few marine previews. so I do 2 MW on a baby smite, is 100% upgrade, but looks funny when next to something like 70+ auto hits, unkillable units or stealth centurions.
Still better to have the rules, then not to have them. Am just not sure how this is suppose to help GK be on the same tier as IH or even RG.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Yeah game was too killy and extreme even before marine codex. Things should be toned down rather than brought to ih/if level.
Alas gw made 8th ed play so slow best way they came up with to keep game end in reasonable time was to make it so extremely killy that by turn 3 not much left of armies
Karol wrote: If the GK unit sits in cover then opponent army is going to see it, unless someone is playing ITC rules with its first floor bunkers.
Do you not play with intervening terrain? There are plenty of ways to be in cover and also not visible.
Karol wrote: I don;t have any psilancers, so am not sure how good they are going to be, but psycanons even at str 8 and D2 don't have to be really impactful. not when there is one per 5 models in the squads.
Can be buffed to S9, AP -2, 2 D. And there are several ways to get more than 1 per 5 (Purgations, Purifiers, Paladins, etc).
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
His point is not that GK should not be powerful for some arcane reason. His point is that NO army should be too far above the rest. Ideally, we all have equally viable armies. Yes, that's not going to happen, but having a tighter range of power levels is still possible, and that's not going to happen if we slowly, one by one, push all armies to the level of the one or two armies that are way over the top. GW needs to tone down what's too strong, and buff what's too weak.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time?
The fix to imbalance isn't more imbalance. Look at it this way: If 1 army out of 20 is OP, and each army is roughly as popular, then over 90% of all games are fair. If you "balance the game" by making another faction OP, you're now down to a bit over 80% of games being fair. The one OP army should be nerfed, you shouldn't be buffing individual armies up to that level.
Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken.
GK were first. Not just first PA, but first overall. Peoples' minds weren't broken. If anything, we looked at it and thought "Those are reasonable rules...".
I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later.
If it were bumped to GK, sure you'd have a few more months of balance, but about 20 other books now have a much worse time. And the currently-fair books are now trash tier. While GK powergamers would be helped, virtually everyone else would be hurt. And there are a lot more non-GK players than GK players.
Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
The CWE book wasn't OP to the same degree IH are (although Ynnari was). Years later, they aren't considered weak.
Stormonu wrote: +1 Strength in 8E isn’t even worthy of being called a bonus. Should be +1 bonus to Wound.
Don’t think the changes will be enough for non-GK players to elevate the army out of “trash tier”. I imagine most GK players will be happy with the changes, though.
Well, for some key targets it is a big buff.
Psilencers go from a decent weapon to target primaris equivalents to auto-dunking intercessors and wounding them on 3s. Psycannons gain a wound shift against nearly every vehicle (not a ton of S9 running around IIRC) except for light T5 DE/Ork stuff. Which, incidentally, are ideal targets for those psilencers.
The real question as Karol put it is can you construct an army with enough of the special guns to make it a worthwhile choice versus Based Dooblesmite, since they are only 1 in 5 on all squads except purifiers paladins and purgations.
But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.
Bad into the IH matchup, very good into the everything else matchup.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
Winds are not a "buff", buffs are only things like psychic powers.
Trust me, space marine stuff does not lose Doctrines if they leave the table.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
His point is not that GK should not be powerful for some arcane reason. His point is that NO army should be too far above the rest. Ideally, we all have equally viable armies. Yes, that's not going to happen, but having a tighter range of power levels is still possible, and that's not going to happen if we slowly, one by one, push all armies to the level of the one or two armies that are way over the top. GW needs to tone down what's too strong, and buff what's too weak.
This. I'm genuinely surprised anyone would need that spelled out.
Pancakey wrote: Still trash tier compared to new SM. Hopefully there are a TON of unannounced additions to this.
Yes, there will be additional Relics, Psi powers and so on. Obviously.
Don’t they usually “preview” for he best of the best?
No. They have literally never deliberately shown the best of the rules in the preview. They much more often show the worst rules in the preview, as they've done so far for Sisters of battle.
ERJAK wrote: No. They have literally never deliberately shown the best of the rules in the preview. They much more often show the worst rules in the preview, as they've done so far for Sisters of battle.
Ha, you man .
Edit: They previewed the best relic in the game, so good it broke entire armies. I swear it's like Momento around here some times.
Stormonu wrote: +1 Strength in 8E isn’t even worthy of being called a bonus. Should be +1 bonus to Wound.
Don’t think the changes will be enough for non-GK players to elevate the army out of “trash tier”. I imagine most GK players will be happy with the changes, though.
Well, for some key targets it is a big buff.
Psilencers go from a decent weapon to target primaris equivalents to auto-dunking intercessors and wounding them on 3s. Psycannons gain a wound shift against nearly every vehicle (not a ton of S9 running around IIRC) except for light T5 DE/Ork stuff. Which, incidentally, are ideal targets for those psilencers.
The real question as Karol put it is can you construct an army with enough of the special guns to make it a worthwhile choice versus Based Dooblesmite, since they are only 1 in 5 on all squads except purifiers paladins and purgations.
But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.
Bad into the IH matchup, very good into the everything else matchup.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
Don't do the flyer thing against VH Sisters. An exorcist puts down a -2 flyer about 85% of the time, with at least 1 good miracle dice.
ERJAK wrote: No. They have literally never deliberately shown the best of the rules in the preview. They much more often show the worst rules in the preview, as they've done so far for Sisters of battle.
Ha, you man .
Edit: They previewed the best relic in the game, so good it broke entire armies. I swear it's like Momento around here some times.
So they showed one powerful relic for that army, along with an utterly pointless stratagem. I think Erjaks point was that no, they're not just picking the most powerful options for their previews, and that they never did. I don't think he meant that they never showed the most powerful rule of a codex, and then there's the "deliberate" part, too. GW clearly didn't understand exactly how powerful the Ironstone was.
Stormonu wrote: +1 Strength in 8E isn’t even worthy of being called a bonus. Should be +1 bonus to Wound.
Don’t think the changes will be enough for non-GK players to elevate the army out of “trash tier”. I imagine most GK players will be happy with the changes, though.
Well, for some key targets it is a big buff.
Psilencers go from a decent weapon to target primaris equivalents to auto-dunking intercessors and wounding them on 3s. Psycannons gain a wound shift against nearly every vehicle (not a ton of S9 running around IIRC) except for light T5 DE/Ork stuff. Which, incidentally, are ideal targets for those psilencers.
The real question as Karol put it is can you construct an army with enough of the special guns to make it a worthwhile choice versus Based Dooblesmite, since they are only 1 in 5 on all squads except purifiers paladins and purgations.
But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.
Bad into the IH matchup, very good into the everything else matchup.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
a leviathan isn't t4 +3sv. now if psycannons were 60" and had astral aim as a rule, not a psychic power, then maybe, they could be some sort of glass canon shoting unit, that requires chaff to baby sit. Something like a thunder canon. But they aren't, at 24" they are going to be dead as soon as they poke out of cover. And if they move they get -1to hit for psycanons being heavy. A unit of purgator psilancers is probably much better, they at least have a lot of shots, so the +1str and +1D is a better multiplicator.
Option for 30" now with chappy on table.
that is true. Still chaplain costs a lot of points, but maybe with a lot of psilancers he could suprise someone who never played vs GK. But that turns it in to a one time per player trick. After that they will know you can get 30". Still better then not having it, for sure.
Nothing should be in the tier IH is in, including IH.
Why? There was time when eldar were unbeatable, when knights were super powerful, now its IH and IF. Why couldn't my army be better then all other this time? Specialy when all rules devalue in w40k. If GK were in the first PA, people would probably be mind blown and call how now they are broken, and then marine stuff would have came out and GK would no longer be broken. I would rather have an army with super powerful rules now, so that the army still stays good 6 or 12 months later. Instead of getting a balanced rules, which 3 months later are considered weak.
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MiguelFelstone wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
A Levathan that can teleport across the map and shoot through walls.
units lose buffs, if they leave the table. So if you gate a unit, it would probably lose the wind buff for a turn. It is probably better to just use astral aim on something like a land raider or a dreadnought with twin lascanon and autocanon.
Don't do the flyer thing against VH Sisters. An exorcist puts down a -2 flyer about 85% of the time, with at least 1 good miracle dice.
Edit: Didn't see the VH stratagem. Makes sense.
I still get only 7 damage with average rolls against T7 3+ space marine flyers, using a miracle die for a "6" on a damage roll.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
Don't GK benefit from the Shock Assault rule, too? For my Salamanders that helped a lot, tbh.
The difficulty ever since the 5e book has been requiring the whole army to take expensive melee weapons and then not giving them enough Attacks to use them properly. Shock Assault helps some but the loss of Sweeping Advance hurt Marines more than most armies because their volume of attacks wasn't as high, and GK have it worse than other Marines because they're all melee units.
The one unit archtype that GW struggles to cost approrpriatley are squads that can solidly do work with both shooting and assault. Far too often, they overcost those models, seeing them being able to both shoot and fight really well. GKs pretty much all fall into that category, as they seemingly pay a premium for the storm bolter and the force weapon, as they should, but they charge way too much for a W1 MEQ.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
Don't GK benefit from the Shock Assault rule, too? For my Salamanders that helped a lot, tbh.
The difficulty ever since the 5e book has been requiring the whole army to take expensive melee weapons and then not giving them enough Attacks to use them properly. Shock Assault helps some but the loss of Sweeping Advance hurt Marines more than most armies because their volume of attacks wasn't as high, and GK have it worse than other Marines because they're all melee units.
Aren't the GK melee weapons something like 2 points right now? And that's if you consider the squad being psykers to be free. A tactical marine with a storm bolter is 15ppm, and a GK strike is 17ppm.
2pts for 2 S5 AP-2 Dd3 attacks isn't what I'd call crazy unreasonable.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm happy The Shrouding is back in some form. I'd be happier if they went back and fixed some of the bad statline decisions (1A Strike Squads? Really?) but it looks like they're trying more than they've tried in the last three editions of GK rules.
Don't GK benefit from the Shock Assault rule, too? For my Salamanders that helped a lot, tbh.
The difficulty ever since the 5e book has been requiring the whole army to take expensive melee weapons and then not giving them enough Attacks to use them properly. Shock Assault helps some but the loss of Sweeping Advance hurt Marines more than most armies because their volume of attacks wasn't as high, and GK have it worse than other Marines because they're all melee units.
Aren't the GK melee weapons something like 2 points right now? And that's if you consider the squad being psykers to be free. A tactical marine with a storm bolter is 15ppm, and a GK strike is 17ppm.
2pts for 2 S5 AP-2 Dd3 attacks isn't what I'd call crazy unreasonable.
There's a mismatch between the statblock and the quality of weapons. It's the same reason you don't see single-wound models with battle cannons, or T10 models with a 6+ armour save; it's too strong a weapon for too fragile a body. The quality of the weapon requires Grey Knights be 17pts/model but then squads get casually removed by inexpensive heavy guns long before they actually get to melee.
It's one of the reasons I'd rather Primaris had been interpreted as a resculpt rather than a new statblock and all Marines had started from the 2W/2A body.
Pancakey wrote: Still trash tier compared to new SM. Hopefully there are a TON of unannounced additions to this.
Well, the unholy mess that is Marines are hardly the benchmark.
Bring them in line with non-Marines and all, and it'll be fine.
Marines just need a massive re-balancing / point increases to bring them back into line with the state of the game roughly July/August 2019 independently of other factions being tweaked.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Marines just need a massive re-balancing / point increases to bring them back into line with the state of the game roughly July/August 2019 independently of other factions being tweaked.
I strongly disagree, but I'm playing Salamanders. I'd rather see them tackle the actual issues that make certain builds broken instead of adjusting points for ALL. Stuff like what they did to the Salamanders Flamer-MW-spam stratagem - which was completely broken initially, but is now capped at 3MW per use.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Marines just need a massive re-balancing / point increases to bring them back into line with the state of the game roughly July/August 2019 independently of other factions being tweaked.
I strongly disagree, but I'm playing Salamanders. I'd rather see them tackle the actual issues that make certain builds broken instead of adjusting points for ALL. Stuff like what they did to the Salamanders Flamer-MW-spam stratagem - which was completely broken initially, but is now capped at 3MW per use.
Basic re-rolls, doctrines and point costs are still completely broken for all Marines. Even without supplements, they don't balance up against a majority of builds and armies out there. Sure, some specific units (Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, etc..) and Strats (Chapter Master) need an additional specific look, but a flat 10%-20% point increase would be a good way to start, not least because the overall variety in Marine builds is pretty good and internal balance decent. It just isn't balanced against non-Marines.
D2 smites definitely seem like the default turn 2 choice, unless you're against like Guard or some other infantry spam list, in which case you wanna stayyyy in cover all game.
... with 24'' range weapons.
There is a +6 inch range for bolt and psyweapons spell. This will likely be pretty common in lists.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For the terminally uninformed (hello!), how do the Tides look to stack with existing buff powers?
If at all?
Well? It's a pure, bolted on upgrade, so GKs give nothing up to gain Tides. The Tides are situationally useful, with cover/stealth being used turn one most of the time, shifting to +1 MW in most lists.
Honestly these are great changes and will be playable. Smite spam will be really strong. They basically can have the ravengard army trait every first turn then army wide change to 2 damage smite (which is a regular smite average)
Draigo
2x GMDK
2x Brother captains
12x strikes strike squads
Paladin ancient is under 2000 points.
Puts out a potential 36 mortal wounds a turn at 24" Heck it's so good you might as well drop the GMNDK and bring 16 strikes and deck out the army with hammers on every strike squad.
Very Very powerful.
Or the other approach is to go interceptor heavy and you wont need brother captains. You lose out on a bunch of CP BUT you have in game mobility.
I am REALLY excited.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For the terminally uninformed (hello!), how do the Tides look to stack with existing buff powers?
If at all?
Well there is a +1 to cast bubble power. So this makes a crucially charge up Vortex of doom much more likely to cast. Assuming we get the same stratagems from the original GK codex. You could get + 2 to cast and roll 3 dice picking the highest 2 - that is a reasonably high chance of getting super vortex. The plus 1 to cast bubble also means the only fail on a regular smite is double 1's....which is not insignificant. Going from 4/36 to 1/36 on failure chance. Also hammer hand stacks really good with the reroll 1's to wound (previously had almost no way to reroll wounds) with force weapons ofc.
You'd be better off with mass Interceptors spit into combat squads, 12" movement that can blink through walls for 3 points per model more.
Edit: ~600 points nets you 12 MW per turn and like 120 bolter shots, on top of the heavy weapons
You'd be better off with mass Interceptors spit into combat squads, 12" movement that can blink through walls.
Yeah thinking this as well as an all in strategy. Maybe half and half and just deep strike the strikes with a bro champ.
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TwinPoleTheory wrote: I'm sure TS players would be ecstatic to take those Psyker-Chaplains you think are garbage, we'll figure out something to do with them I'm sure.
Probably wont use the botler range power but it's not bad. I am sure there is a better one.
Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
Do you not play with intervening terrain? There are plenty of ways to be in cover and also not visible.
Can be buffed to S9, AP -2, 2 D. And there are several ways to get more than 1 per 5 (Purgations, Purifiers, Paladins, etc).
yes, but any window or door means they are going to be seen. We don't have knight sized windowless terrain here. Just normal buildings, hills etc. We stoped using forests a long time ago, because they did nothing.
Purgation and purfires are all in power armour, and to deep strike them you need to burn CP for the teleportarium. Paladins are technicly a better option for me, because I don't have many power armoured GK. But the termintors I have are half armed with incinerators, and am not going to buy boxs of termintors just to get a single model with a psycanon. Againt the change isn't bad, but it is not comperable to marine players having models they owned or which they could counts as made very good over night, without any money spend required.
Aren't the GK melee weapons something like 2 points right now? And that's if you consider the squad being psykers to be free. A tactical marine with a storm bolter is 15ppm, and a GK strike is 17ppm.
the falchions are. IMO a chapter tactic, access to a doctrin, super docrtin beats out having a 12" smite. Plus lets not forget that marine players aren't using tacticals, they take intercessors which for 2pts, are a class better at everything.
His point is not that GK should not be powerful for some arcane reason. His point is that NO army should be too far above the rest. Ideally, we all have equally viable armies. Yes, that's not going to happen, but having a tighter range of power levels is still possible, and that's not going to happen if we slowly, one by one, push all armies to the level of the one or two armies that are way over the top. GW needs to tone down what's too strong, and buff what's too weak.
Seems to be a strange point considering there is always an army or two, which are as you said it more then a head above other armies. If 8th could have all the various soups, the Inari eldar, and now the IH army, why couldn't it have a very powerful GK at the top for 6 to 12 months? GW does not seem to be interested in toning down the levels of all armies, so accepting your army as a balanced one, is asking for your army to be bad.
But, funny you would say that GK don't have units that are tough to kill like eldar flyers, because unless there's something that says flyers don't get it...you guys got -2 to hit flyers now too. I would have no questions in my mind about what I want to put down on the board turn 1 as GK: Flyers, and stuff in flyers. drop them in/on terrain, doesn't even matter if you can't quite swing the cover save, because you still get the -1 to hit.
If the power works on vehicles yes. But that is a lot of points put in to a stormraven, and the other tides don't work on vehicles. 2 units of purgators or purfires, or even a mix, jumping out of a raven with 6-8 psilancers could hurt some non heavy armour targets. And one unit can always be buffed with the psilancer stratagem too. It just feels very top heavy and not as simple to use, as say droping a bunch of centurions at short range and letting it reap with everything they have. Am sure people are going to try it out. For sure at worse it is going to give people a few weeks of testing.
The fix to imbalance isn't more imbalance. Look at it this way: If 1 army out of 20 is OP, and each army is roughly as popular, then over 90% of all games are fair. If you "balance the game" by making another faction OP, you're now down to a bit over 80% of games being fair. The one OP army should be nerfed, you shouldn't be buffing individual armies up to that level.
My army is not popular. In fact I think most people are happy that it is not their army, but GK that are weak. GW does nerf armies, but it often happens after a six month or even a year. I would have greatly enjoyed having a top tier army for 6-12 months. People with good armies seemed to have liked it a lot, and I have not seen them being sad about the fact that their army is good. In fact the only time they are unhappy is when other armies become much more powerful or if their armies get nerfed.
GK were first. Not just first PA, but first overall. Peoples' minds weren't broken. If anything, we looked at it and thought "Those are reasonable rules...".
marines came out before, and DG came out at the same time. And both armies had new units and a lot more synergies then the GK codex. At best the GK codex could be described as bland. they took the index, copy pasted it, and just added the stuff all armies had to have.
If it were bumped to GK, sure you'd have a few more months of balance, but about 20 other books now have a much worse time. And the currently-fair books are now trash tier. While GK powergamers would be helped, virtually everyone else would be hurt. And there are a lot more non-GK players than GK players.
I have not seen any eldar or knight players cry out for nerfs when their armies were beating everything left and right. Just like I don't see IH or marine players asking to be nerfed hard. unless someone plays multiple armies, I don't see why someone should be interested in the state of other armies, specialy when other army players aren't interested in the state of your army. At least up until your bad IH suddenly start kicking everyone around.
The CWE book wasn't OP to the same degree IH are (although Ynnari was). Years later, they aren't considered weak.
Well I heard stories about CWE books always being OP, and Inari were just that. If 2 years ago GK were bad, and stayed bad for 2 years. And Inari were good for more then a year. Why couldn't GK be good now, just like Inari was? It is not like GK were good in prior editions, while from stories told me, eldar were okey in 7th ed.
I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.
But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GKMW spam is going to be the counter to it.
Argive wrote: So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...
That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..
I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..
Even better. Smite goes on a 5. GK have innate +1. Stratagem for an additional +1.
Brother Captain
6x5 Strikes
6 D2 at 24" on deepstrike on 3s for ~620 points - half a knight in just smites that only fail if they perils.
Karol wrote: I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.
But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GKMW spam is going to be the counter to it.
As an aside, and apropos of very little, as a Chaos player, I am dreading - DREADING - dealing with GKs now. My poor daemons.
Bharring wrote:The fix to imbalance isn't more imbalance. Look at it this way: If 1 army out of 20 is OP, and each army is roughly as popular, then over 90% of all games are fair. If you "balance the game" by making another faction OP, you're now down to a bit over 80% of games being fair. The one OP army should be nerfed, you shouldn't be buffing individual armies up to that level.
My army is not popular. In fact I think most people are happy that it is not their army, but GK that are weak. GW does nerf armies, but it often happens after a six month or even a year. I would have greatly enjoyed having a top tier army for 6-12 months. People with good armies seemed to have liked it a lot, and I have not seen them being sad about the fact that their army is good.
I'm sure the majority of the people who's army becomes OP are happy about it, at least to some degree. But with over 20 factions in the game, that means you're pissing off 95% of the playerbase to make less than 5% happy. Doesn't seem like a win to me, overall.
In fact the only time they are unhappy is when other armies become much more powerful or if their armies get nerfed.
That's just projection. I, and many others, have celebrated nerfs to my primary army.
GK were first. Not just first PA, but first overall. Peoples' minds weren't broken. If anything, we looked at it and thought "Those are reasonable rules...".
marines came out before, and DG came out at the same time. And both armies had new units and a lot more synergies then the GK codex. At best the GK codex could be described as bland. they took the index, copy pasted it, and just added the stuff all armies had to have.
Sorry, misremembered. SM did come out first. And CSM came out around the same time as GK (but DG came out later).
If it were bumped to GK, sure you'd have a few more months of balance, but about 20 other books now have a much worse time. And the currently-fair books are now trash tier. While GK powergamers would be helped, virtually everyone else would be hurt. And there are a lot more non-GK players than GK players.
I have not seen any eldar or knight players cry out for nerfs when their armies were beating everything left and right.
Then you were ignoring a lot of posts.
Just like I don't see IH or marine players asking to be nerfed hard. unless someone plays multiple armies, I don't see why someone should be interested in the state of other armies, specialy when other army players aren't interested in the state of your army. At least up until your bad IH suddenly start kicking everyone around.
Some people are more interested in the game and the hobby than they are on their win/loss ratio. There's good reason to want your books balanced, if you care about the game and/or hobby. Even if it tanks your win/loss ratio.
The CWE book wasn't OP to the same degree IH are (although Ynnari was). Years later, they aren't considered weak.
Well I heard stories about CWE books always being OP, and Inari were just that.
I've heard stories that 9/11 was an inside job. Certainly doesn't make it true. CWE was certainly above average at the time. But that's mostly academic, as Ynnari were that OP.
If 2 years ago GK were bad, and stayed bad for 2 years. And Inari were good for more then a year. Why couldn't GK be good now, just like Inari was?
Because Ynnari being that good was bad for the game. Nothing should be that good. Again, you're trying to make 5% of people happy by making 95% of people unhappy.
It is not like GK were good in prior editions, while from stories told me, eldar were okey in 7th ed.
So? Even if GK were never good (not true - even they have been top dog, although it's been a while), why does it mean we should cause more imbalance?
Eldar were OP. They're the most consistently OP book. The next most-often top-dog book, Space Marines, has a much worse track record. No argument that Eldar have been OP more than GK. But how does GK being OP fix that?
Karol wrote: I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.
But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GKMW spam is going to be the counter to it.
Dude almost everything deepstrikes and you have brother captains. If you're still going to bitch when GW gives you a ton of buffs then just switch armies. You literally only need one model in the unit to be in smite range.
I don't think PA is going to change the fact that GK is one of the worse armies to fight demons in 8th ed. Unless there is some really hard skew among the other two relics, or the psychic powers.
Karol wrote: I hope that people remember that GK smites, even doing 2MW each, still have a range of 12". Getting a squad or two in range, and maybe a hero to support them is one thing. getting 6 units of strikes/termintors and 4-5 characters within the range of a single unit, is less easy to pull off. Specialy for termintors with their big bases, or if you have to spread.
But If we ever get some list based around one pricy model with 10-12 wounds with a +2inv, then GKMW spam is going to be the counter to it.
As an aside, and apropos of very little, as a Chaos player, I am dreading - DREADING - dealing with GKs now. My poor daemons.
Having every GK unit casually blast 4 wound off your units via smite sure is fun!
yes, once you get through the chaff of all the cultists, nurglings and plaguebearers. And then the 20 man unit you just smited and boltered to death ,gets back up for free. Specialy if it is siting on objective, the amount of fun when that happens is just mind blowing huge.
T1nk4bell wrote: Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
I love that you pointed this out. I was just thinking that it was cool the the psychic army changes doctrines with psychic powers.
I'm not sure how this will all play out. To be honest I'm mostly excited for the psy ammo buff. Psylencers will be S5 d3+1 Dmg
T1nk4bell wrote: Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
Or smite the feth out of your opponent, then last power of the phase is making your psilencers do murder in the shooting phase.
Karol wrote: yes, once you get through the chaff of all the cultists, nurglings and plaguebearers. And then the 20 man unit you just smited and boltered to death ,gets back up for free. Specialy if it is siting on objective, the amount of fun when that happens is just mind blowing huge.
It's almost as if you still have the shooting and assault phase
Some of the best chaos options are Daemons not in the Chaos Daemon book (oblits, lord discordant, possessed, PBC), thus not benefiting from the revive strat.
Let's put it in perspective, with the right Tide, a single GK smite kills an entire obliterators, any non-nurgle daemon herald, 2 possessed, 4 (FOUR) warptalons, and 2 smites kill a daemon prince. This is absolutely not trivial.
T1nk4bell wrote: Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
Or smite the feth out of your opponent, then last power of the phase is making your psilencers do murder in the shooting phase.
That's exactly what I was thinking. If its going to be indeed that simple to switch these "doctrines/traits" that's disgustingly potent…
they haven't explained it too well in the preview tbh.
Argive wrote: So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...
That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..
I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..
It won’t be enough. It doesn’t address the main issues with GK right now.
Maybe we will get a smite twice ability?!?!? RESMITE FOR 2cp
Karol wrote: yes, once you get through the chaff of all the cultists, nurglings and plaguebearers. And then the 20 man unit you just smited and boltered to death ,gets back up for free. Specialy if it is siting on objective, the amount of fun when that happens is just mind blowing huge.
I'm not sure you understand how effective 4 mortal wounds are from 85 points would be.
Argive wrote: So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong? A normal smite is a D3...
That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..
I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..
It won’t be enough. It doesn’t address the main issues with GK right now.
Maybe we will get a smite twice ability?!?!? RESMITE FOR 2cp
Sadness...
What deadalus said..
Combat squads, minor characters pumping out 2d smites on 4's is mean AF..
Not sure it will suddenly catapult GK into top tier competitive sphere.. but with the points drops etc. it certainly don't seem to shabby. We are still to find out what else there is in terms of relics, traits etc.
Argive wrote: So no one thinks a "2d smite on msu combat squads of interceptors/strikes/termies etc always casting on a 5 is strong?
A normal smite is a D3...
That's Litelry a 100% offensive output increase..
I wonder what else is there. I think these fellas could be mean..
It won’t be enough. It doesn’t address the main issues with GK right now.
Maybe we will get a smite twice ability?!?!? RESMITE FOR 2cp
Sadness...
What deadalus said..
Combat squads, minor characters pumping out 2d smites on 4's is mean AF..
Not sure it will suddenly catapult GK into top tier competitive sphere.. but with the points drops etc. it certainly don't seem to shabby.
We are still to find out what else there is in terms of relics, traits etc.
It’s definitely spicy. Throw in the smite Extendomancer (tmGW) for extra flavor. But will it be enough in a post IH , 12 asscents world?
While I think Karol is being overly pessimistic (which is honestly not surprising) I do think that while the changes are good they aren't good enough to make GK a good army to play. By which I mean they're going to probably end up being a "one good build" army, which is still really sucky for those of use who don't want to play MSU smite spam.
Sim-Life wrote: While I think Karol is being overly pessimistic (which is honestly not surprising) I do think that while the changes are good they aren't good enough to make GK a good army to play. By which I mean they're going to probably end up being a "one good build" army, which is still really sucky for those of use who don't want to play MSU smite spam.
Its what every non SM army has to be though... one good build is better than no good buids IMO.
Interesting to see what other strats there are.
Farming 1CP psychic power per turn is pretty good too. That's essentialy cuts the cost by 1 CP for psybolt ammo strat on a GMNDK or a squad of paladins every turn.
These new rules coupled with the recent points drops for most of their infantry (which these rules seem to target) definitely gives them a bump in power. If they get a selection of decent strats that are properly costed they will enter decent mid-tier territory.
Argive wrote: Farming 1CP psychic power per turn is pretty good too. That's essentialy cuts the cost by 1 CP for psybolt ammo strat on a GMNDK or a squad of paladins every turn.
I'm pretty excited not to have to run a double battalion, Strikes are def better than they used to be, but for 3 more points i can get double the movement. In a mass stormbolter/smite army i think that's going to be important.
I really hope this helps GK in a meaningful way. Quite excited for this even thought I don't play GK but am an avid fan of the faction. As far as power armour go GK are tolerable along with dark angels
Karol, if the only thing that's going to satisfy you is being able to hand it to Imperial Fists, and Iron Hands, then I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed, and rightly so. No army deserves to be able to beat every opponent for 6 to 12 months, not even Space Marines. Anyone who enjoys being able to beat down on their opponent without a fair and equitable challenge is probably a bit of a spoiled brat. I know it can feel good to opine about things as soon as possible, but why not let the book come out first and try a few games, and if you find that you're still getting smashed by Space Marines, but can have a fun and friendly game against the other 25 factions in the game, then let's call that a success and maybe just avoid playing Space Marines for a while.
Seems like a weird strat. I couldn't think of any flamer options ive seen anyone run. Wouldn't surprise me if GW made a whole strat that can be used on like one unit with one sub optimal load out though lol...
Argive wrote: Seems like a weird strat. I couldn't think of any flamer options ive seen anyone run.
Wouldn't surprise me if GW made a whole strat that can be used on like one unit with one sub optimal load out though lol...
Well, we like to think in terms of the basic spam : "what crazy weapon can I get in range?"
The real play can be something more subtle, as in, here's a unit - you need to deal with it. Or to allow GK to assassinate a character which thereby enforces stricter bubbling from the opponent reducing their coverage of the table.
Don’t they usually “preview” for he best of the best?
Absolutely not.
They previewed average stuff for most of the nids release, and they previewed literally the worst of the unit evolution upgrades.
In Faith and Fury they picked a smattering of O.K. Chaos stuff, but left out some of the literal best like NL preventing retreats.
I haven't kept my eye on the loyalist SM stuff because I'm one of the many people suffering from marine fatigue and just can't be bloody asked, but I'm confident they haven't shown the 'best' stuff for all of them either.
Argive wrote: Seems like a weird strat. I couldn't think of any flamer options ive seen anyone run.
Wouldn't surprise me if GW made a whole strat that can be used on like one unit with one sub optimal load out though lol...
GK haven't run flamers because an 8" gun on a deepstriking model is kind of a waste.
Don’t they usually “preview” for he best of the best?
Absolutely not.
They previewed average stuff for most of the nids release, and they previewed literally the worst of the unit evolution upgrades.
Not to keep harping on this as it's not directly GK related, but
They previewed "average" because that's all they got, mediocre buffs at best. The Iron Hands preview still had that stupid relic that completely broke entire armies.
the F&F preview for space marines BTW was, likewise hit and miss some of the best stuff but also a lot of the "meh" stuff, for example they previewed the iron hands litany which was nothing to be excited about, meanwhile the IF litany is actually pretty awesome
Yea, incinerators. Purgation can take 4. 9 points S6 AP1.
If they get classes as Psi - S7 D2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm, well, not for purgation since they don't have Teleport Strike. Not as nice as originally thought.
They will never be classed as psi.
These changes do address an issue of lack of psychic might and the power that generates CP is nice. But seeing all the powers/abilities so far are rather focused on buffing shooting I am skeptical not impressed. Stormbolters remain the real strength in the army and that is really weird still.
They need to give the power armor units a bone already in either mobility or ranged options and open up teleport strike to the entire army.
So I like the look of new GK rules, a different take. I also cannot wait for my Kronos Nids to cause perils left right and centre and my Slaanesh Infernal Enrapturess causing perils on any double and popping 17- 51 pts of GK (Or at the least forcing a command point reroll)
Smite Spam will be strong and annoying, but I do think the fact it overall targets closest and theres always a chance of perils occurring make it less obnoxious than pure alpha strike armies removing half your list in their first shooting phase, least the majority of smites target closest unit so I have at least SOME control over what gets hit first!
Im actually happy to read this Whilst it may not be the 100%, this will make GK very much a option in casual/ fun night play which in my opinion is the best way to experience 40k!
Oh what a glorious day then !! Huzzah ! Mark your calendars we have a positive confirmation of happy from Karol. I was here for this day, feels good actually.
I hope you have a lot of fun with your GK soon. I think I can speak for us all in saying, enjoy it as hard as you can.
Every opponent playing against GK will be forced to keep his models exactly on top of the objective, which is many times difficult, or the GK will just deep strike a troop on it.
This is the best objective stealing stratagem in the game. In scorched earth it is almost broken.
AngryAngel80 wrote: The question is, is Karol happy ? That I want to know, as this is good news for the GK.
I guess not. I'm not happy either.
GKSS are 17 pts, have 1W and a force/power weapon with 1A.
With the new options one can boost them a bit.
But for me this is still insufficient.
They still die easily and are mediocre in cc, while shooting becomes a bit better.
It appears the boosting relies on spells and stratagems; don't count too much on this since the spell may fail and you may run out of CPs.
A Marine army like IH or IF still outperforms them for a mile.
T1nk4bell wrote: Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
T1nk4bell wrote: Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
Argive wrote: Seems like a weird strat. I couldn't think of any flamer options ive seen anyone run.
Wouldn't surprise me if GW made a whole strat that can be used on like one unit with one sub optimal load out though lol...
It's not really great for flamers as they are pretty crappy anyways. It's great for sneaking into an area you couldn't otherwise get. You can use it to snipe characters with charged up psicannons/psilencers on big units of paladins. Someone hidind 3 tfc in the back feild will need a screening unit to stop this. It's only 1 CP too. The more I think about it the more I like it. Just it's existence alone without using it is going to give opponents a headache trying to screen their important units.
The other use is to drop an aura in around a bunch of charging units (think ancient with banner of refining flame) d6 smite and then every charing unit with get +1 attack if they charge near him.
T1nk4bell wrote: Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
You are a genius sir.
Seems obvious.
Well everyone has figured out you start with the RG trait and then swap to ether psi damage or mind bullets. Then you are stuck without the defensive trait the rest of that turn BUT if you are smart with it you can take advantage of 2 tides in the next turn.
Say you are in the smite tide - you cast all your smite and then switch to the melee tide or the shooty tide because those phases hasnt happend yet. This is top tier shenanigans. Was fooling around with some lists that spam MSU and 17ish units are dumping mad smites...like 30+ mortal wounds and that same list also have 24 psycannons it in - switch to charge them up and you've done enough damage to kill 3 IK (assuming they are all in range).
T1nk4bell wrote: Funny thing you can use two tides in one turn.
Like start in the defense one, than I psychic phase switch it to smite dmg than smite.
Next turn make you're smites, than switch it back to defense one. And so on
You are a genius sir.
Seems obvious.
I mean, yes...but like, what benefit are you gaining exactly?
Having the extra cover in...your movement phase?
The best way to benefit I can come up with is starting a turn in Smitemode, doing all your smites, and then swapping to a different tide with your last power. So that'd be a turn 2 maneuver.
Though, I guess you could finagle it a bit. Lets say you go first, you could start in smites 'o clock and then swap it over to the cover zone after you finish your psychic phase so your opponent's turn you'd be in covertown.
AngryAngel80 wrote: The question is, is Karol happy ? That I want to know, as this is good news for the GK.
I guess not. I'm not happy either.
GKSS are 17 pts, have 1W and a force/power weapon with 1A. With the new options one can boost them a bit. But for me this is still insufficient. They still die easily and are mediocre in cc, while shooting becomes a bit better. It appears the boosting relies on spells and stratagems; don't count too much on this since the spell may fail and you may run out of CPs. A Marine army like IH or IF still outperforms them for a mile.
That's a bad comparison. NuMarines outperform everybody right now.
I'm keeping an open mind, but so far I'm unimpressed. Everything's still a little too limiting.
Dynamic Insertion only works for Interceptors / Terminators / NDKs. You arrive at 3 inches, but it doesn't let you charge. Purgation Squads would benefit most from this, but it doesn't apply to them.
Tide of Escalation is certainly exciting, but it applies to a psychic power that only targets the nearest unit. A skilled opponent will ensure you only target chaff.
How often is the Stave of Surpremacy going to cause PotW? The Recitation of Projection applies to one unit within 6" of a Chaplain.
Empyrean Domination is not bad. I could see soup armies including a GK detachment just for this. Let's hope we see more, I'd really like to be using my GKs right now.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
Hitting on 4s, don’t forget.
A closer comparison would be a Decimator, who gets 8 butcher shots. Dreadnought profile with a 5++ for 140pts.
1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Herodius wrote: 1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Or you could get, i dunno , -1 army wide ap for just showing up?
Herodius wrote: 1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Or you could get, i dunno , -1 army wide ap for just showing up?
But we didn't, so I'm working with what we've got.
Herodius wrote: 1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Made me LoL at work, interesting little combo there. =)
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Well, at least it's more exciting than the Thousand Sons preview. Good grief, I'm not sure you could have made that less underwhelming.
Herodius wrote: 1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Or you could get, i dunno , -1 army wide ap for just showing up?
LOL dude...MSUGK are going to be a dominating force. 30+ mortals coming out of your army a turn at 24" with a bro champ. Plus probably about 300 ROF shots a turn. -1 AP is nothing compared do doing flat 2 mortals a turn with every unit in your army. It's literally not even close. GK are going to wipe the floor with marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Well, at least it's more exciting than the Thousand Sons preview. Good grief, I'm not sure you could have made that less underwhelming.
I am interested to see more from the TS. Their relic is pretty darn good. Use to support magnus. You could roll double 1's for your smite - change one to a 6 and reroll the other and you have a 66% chance for 2d6 smite. Really looking forward to that.
Infiltrating a 20 man rubric and DMC 10 terms and just go to town on a flank. Seems pretty strong. The GK release is superior ofc but it should be. GK were utra bad. TS Mono is below average but as soup element is god tier. This should help them be a mono force. Some new spells - new tricks - hopefully some for of army wide buff coming in later releases but that doesn't seem to be the theme for chaos :(. We still don't know if you can take multiple detachment types in a single TS army. That will be a big deciding factor if this is good or not.
When I first saw dynamic insertion I thought it was made specially for purifiers with a nearby brother captain/relic banner for some mega-smiting, forgetting that they can't teleport strike. With that in mind though - is there anything cheaper than a storm raven that can get purifiers into a good position?
Insularum wrote: When I first saw dynamic insertion I thought it was made specially for purifiers with a nearby brother captain/relic banner for some mega-smiting, forgetting that they can't teleport strike. With that in mind though - is there anything cheaper than a storm raven that can get purifiers into a good position?
Walking? I mean, it's not a good way to get into position, but when and if you get there, it's a good position. And it's cheap.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Well, at least it's more exciting than the Thousand Sons preview. Good grief, I'm not sure you could have made that less underwhelming.
My interest is piqued.
I imagine soup within TS will be required to bleed as much as possible out of it.
You have an 11 in 36 to roll a 1. That staff will get used every turn and is far better than almost all current TS relics.
And I guess people dont like SoT, but they're one of the best terminators and rezzing them seems worthwhile.
Insularum wrote: When I first saw dynamic insertion I thought it was made specially for purifiers with a nearby brother captain/relic banner for some mega-smiting, forgetting that they can't teleport strike. With that in mind though - is there anything cheaper than a storm raven that can get purifiers into a good position?
Rhino is the cheapest way but purifiers are really just strikes that can take 2 heavies at 5. Just use them as a shooty unit and if anyone is dumb enough to get close to them blast them with d6+1 Smite lol. However I think think strike squads are better at this point because they give you CP and with the flat 2 smite at 24" next to a bro champ...they even smite better.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Well, at least it's more exciting than the Thousand Sons preview. Good grief, I'm not sure you could have made that less underwhelming.
My interest is piqued.
I imagine soup within TS will be required to bleed as much as possible out of it.
You have an 11 in 36 to roll a 1. That staff will get used every turn and is far better than almost all current TS relics.
And I guess people dont like SoT, but they're one of the best terminators and rezzing them seems worthwhile.
That relic is amazing. It is easily worth a command reroll every turn with the added bonus of probably giving you a super smite in the process. It just doesn't scream power out in the most obvious way. Likely it will always be used offensively but say you don't roll and 1's in your turn and you opponent for some reason decided they want to be 18" away from you...yeah..you are about to have some real fun if they roll poorly. However I am not sure how the interactions with command reoll will work for this. If your opponent rolls a say a 6and 1 on a psychic test against this relic - can you use the relic after they command reroll their 1 say if they needed an 8 to cast a power? No clear guidance how that interaction would work.
stormcraft wrote: Psycannon with the buff are s8, - 1,d2, thats a really Solid Profile in 8e. You get 16 shots for 101 points in purgators, thats the same output as a butcher cannon leviathan. Sure, only 24 Range and a lot More fragile, bit only a third in points also
Hitting on 4s, don’t forget.
A closer comparison would be a Decimator, who gets 8 butcher shots. Dreadnought profile with a 5++ for 140pts.
We are hoping for reroll all hits aura from new Draigo (likely our new model) and in that case you are hitting 75%...still really good.
Herodius wrote: 1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Even better - banner of refining flame ancient with warlord trait for reroll charges. Set him up 4" away. Deep strike With giant unit of paladins (or just a bunch of units) behind him. Cast the + 1 to cast power with 1 of those units. Psychic Channeling then - Cast the ancient smite. Spend 1 CP to cast vortex. Then charge around the ancient and get +1 attack with all your boys within 6" of ancient.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Well, at least it's more exciting than the Thousand Sons preview. Good grief, I'm not sure you could have made that less underwhelming.
My interest is piqued.
I imagine soup within TS will be required to bleed as much as possible out of it.
You have an 11 in 36 to roll a 1. That staff will get used every turn and is far better than almost all current TS relics.
And I guess people dont like SoT, but they're one of the best terminators and rezzing them seems worthwhile.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: For examples of when they didn't preview the best, the BT preview had the suck-tacular LRC stratagem rather than the no-fallback or run-and-charge stratagem.
Lets hope GK will have some aweso.... ahh who am I kidding. GK prolly gonna get squatted in CA 2020. I can see it now...
“Redace all your grE knight models cust to “0” and threw those in the trush.” With faq coming soon after for clarity.
Not getting squatted any time soon. On the official warhammer 40k Facebook page they said yesterday there will be a release regarding GK primaris in the future.
Incinerators are just not good Enough at the moment. Maybe if we get a really good stratagem to push them, atm you could just drop 4 Psilencers 9 Away.
But I still think you can do really good things with the stratagem.
- Objective Grabbing
- Character Sniping
- Forcing really tight screening
Dropping Voldus next to an enemy Support Chracter and then smite / Purge / Vortex could really hurt, and maybe we get evene better offensive spells in the new discipline who knows
Herodius wrote: 1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Or you could get, i dunno , -1 army wide ap for just showing up?
LOL dude...MSUGK are going to be a dominating force. 30+ mortals coming out of your army a turn at 24" with a bro champ. Plus probably about 300 ROF shots a turn. -1 AP is nothing compared do doing flat 2 mortals a turn with every unit in your army. It's literally not even close. GK are going to wipe the floor with marines.
I seriously doubt it. You're still looking at a basic Marine costing the same as an Intercessor. Those Smites are good but even with the bonus to cast you'll fail probably 1 a turn and have another denied and then your MSU units start falling apart quickly under regular SM fire. I think the new GK stuff makes them better for sure but I don't see them dominating SM without GW doing something to fix the absurd power of the various SM armies.
I seriously doubt it. You're still looking at a basic Marine costing the same as an Intercessor. Those Smites are good but even with the bonus to cast you'll fail probably 1 a turn and have another denied and then your MSU units start falling apart quickly under regular SM fire. I think the new GK stuff makes them better for sure but I don't see them dominating SM without GW doing something to fix the absurd power of the various SM armies.
The interesting thing is that with so many marine armies taking so many Stalker Bolt Rifles it works out surprisingly close
In pure shooting, the Intercessors have a slight edge but it is in no way decisive. Not decisive enough to balance out the number of smites which will get through or the much better CC capability of the GK Strikes. In a straight head to head the GK strikes look as good as the current top-tier marine troop choice.
Clearly if the marines go with Auto Bolt rifles and Tactical Doctrine they get the shooting advantage back - but that is a very different marine build and if GK are good enough to force people away from what is currently the optimal build that would be an amazing improvement in how relevant GK are.
I seriously doubt it. You're still looking at a basic Marine costing the same as an Intercessor. Those Smites are good but even with the bonus to cast you'll fail probably 1 a turn and have another denied and then your MSU units start falling apart quickly under regular SM fire. I think the new GK stuff makes them better for sure but I don't see them dominating SM without GW doing something to fix the absurd power of the various SM armies.
This is certainly the issue GK players will face despite the announced changes.
The army will fall apart, maybe not as easy as now but the ways to counter this are limited.
IH and IF are still out of reach.
I imagine soup within TS will be required to bleed as much as possible out of it.
You have an 11 in 36 to roll a 1. That staff will get used every turn and is far better than almost all current TS relics.
And I guess people dont like SoT, but they're one of the best terminators and rezzing them seems worthwhile.
I don't think they've significantly changed or improved TS. They will continue to exist as a spot detachment to shoehorn Ahriman into armies.
Mono-TS will probably get a 1-2% bump in win rate, but the fundamental problems of the army continue to exist and GW has shown no interest or creativity in addressing them.
I mean, the most original thing they've done is add Tzaangor to give them a hand to hand element. Pretty sure TS has been assigned a part-time junior designer who's primary focus is something else entirely.
I imagine soup within TS will be required to bleed as much as possible out of it.
You have an 11 in 36 to roll a 1. That staff will get used every turn and is far better than almost all current TS relics.
And I guess people dont like SoT, but they're one of the best terminators and rezzing them seems worthwhile.
I don't think they've significantly changed or improved TS. They will continue to exist as a spot detachment to shoehorn Ahriman into armies.
Mono-TS will probably get a 1-2% bump in win rate, but the fundamental problems of the army continue to exist and GW has shown no interest or creativity in addressing them.
I mean, the most original thing they've done is add Tzaangor to give them a hand to hand element. Pretty sure TS has been assigned a part-time junior designer who's primary focus is something else entirely.
That's it.
The biggest problem with SOTs is that
1) They are competing with the actual best terminators in the game, because chaos is still a soup-only faction and GW seems uninterested in preventing mandatory soup anywhere but the imperium factions
2) their big draw was AP-2 boltguns. Marines now get AP-1 boltguns on the turn their terminators arrive. And they get chapter tactics.
3) They exacerbate the "Can in a game of Can Openers" problem terminators have had for 3 editions by having another extra rule that only works if you DONT fire the kind of wepaon you shoot terminators with at them, and they pay for that rule.
Not having to pay for melee weapons on a unit that at the end of the day isn't great at melee is a good plus for SoTs. But I think most chaos soup players will continue to say BEGONE SOT and just not take them.
I'm really interested in the new Dominus powers. Do people think they are going to be restricted to Hqs/characters for instance. Might be worth taking other supporting units like apothecaries to have redundant casters for the swapping power.
Did GK get access to the upgrades from faith and Fury? Some of the new litanies would be nice, or getting the reroll to revive one of the 40+ point terminators
fraser1191 wrote: I'm really interested in the new Dominus powers. Do people think they are going to be restricted to Hqs/characters for instance. Might be worth taking other supporting units like apothecaries to have redundant casters for the swapping power.
Did GK get access to the upgrades from faith and Fury? Some of the new litanies would be nice, or getting the reroll to revive one of the 40+ point terminators
Nope, those were restricted to codex space marines for no reason.
Herodius wrote: 1. Dynamic Insertion on Voldus near a character.
2. Smite (or Purge Soul or some other power) + Empyric Surge.
3. Vortex of Doom + Psychic Channeling = ~35% chance for d6MW.
4. Gate of Infinity out.
5. ????
6. Profit
Or you could get, i dunno , -1 army wide ap for just showing up?
LOL dude...MSUGK are going to be a dominating force. 30+ mortals coming out of your army a turn at 24" with a bro champ. Plus probably about 300 ROF shots a turn. -1 AP is nothing compared do doing flat 2 mortals a turn with every unit in your army. It's literally not even close. GK are going to wipe the floor with marines.
fraser1191 wrote: I'm really interested in the new Dominus powers. Do people think they are going to be restricted to Hqs/characters for instance. Might be worth taking other supporting units like apothecaries to have redundant casters for the swapping power.
Did GK get access to the upgrades from faith and Fury? Some of the new litanies would be nice, or getting the reroll to revive one of the 40+ point terminators
Nope, those were restricted to codex space marines for no reason.
I imagine soup within TS will be required to bleed as much as possible out of it.
You have an 11 in 36 to roll a 1. That staff will get used every turn and is far better than almost all current TS relics.
And I guess people dont like SoT, but they're one of the best terminators and rezzing them seems worthwhile.
I don't think they've significantly changed or improved TS. They will continue to exist as a spot detachment to shoehorn Ahriman into armies.
Mono-TS will probably get a 1-2% bump in win rate, but the fundamental problems of the army continue to exist and GW has shown no interest or creativity in addressing them.
I mean, the most original thing they've done is add Tzaangor to give them a hand to hand element. Pretty sure TS has been assigned a part-time junior designer who's primary focus is something else entirely.
That's it.
The biggest problem with SOTs is that
1) They are competing with the actual best terminators in the game, because chaos is still a soup-only faction and GW seems uninterested in preventing mandatory soup anywhere but the imperium factions
2) their big draw was AP-2 boltguns. Marines now get AP-1 boltguns on the turn their terminators arrive. And they get chapter tactics.
3) They exacerbate the "Can in a game of Can Openers" problem terminators have had for 3 editions by having another extra rule that only works if you DONT fire the kind of wepaon you shoot terminators with at them, and they pay for that rule.
Not having to pay for melee weapons on a unit that at the end of the day isn't great at melee is a good plus for SoTs. But I think most chaos soup players will continue to say BEGONE SOT and just not take them.
You're both not wrong, but still a bit sour on it, I think. 40 bolt rifles (equivalent points) kills one SoT, which then comes back. SoT otherwise kill 6 Intercessors with VotLW (note that AP2 is worth twice as many shots as combi-bolters). Stalkers would be bad news, of course, but given I deepstrike and they don't I have some edge.
I'm just hoping Cult of Time has some other charge/movement bonuses to get them into combat. Slap that along with "deepstriking" a Defiler from Duplicity.
It doesn't make TS "better", but it makes it harder for them to deal with me.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm just hoping Cult of Time has some other charge/movement bonuses to get them into combat. Slap that along with "deepstriking" a Defiler from Duplicity.
It doesn't make TS "better", but it makes it harder for them to deal with me.
I remain mostly optimistic.
It doesn't really matter. I don't see anything to make me spend money on GW products, ultimately, that's a good thing.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm just hoping Cult of Time has some other charge/movement bonuses to get them into combat. Slap that along with "deepstriking" a Defiler from Duplicity.
It doesn't make TS "better", but it makes it harder for them to deal with me.
I remain mostly optimistic.
It doesn't really matter. I don't see anything to make me spend money on GW products, ultimately, that's a good thing.
*shrug* I won't be buying the book, either (until I know it has enough value to me).
I seriously doubt it. You're still looking at a basic Marine costing the same as an Intercessor. Those Smites are good but even with the bonus to cast you'll fail probably 1 a turn and have another denied and then your MSU units start falling apart quickly under regular SM fire. I think the new GK stuff makes them better for sure but I don't see them dominating SM without GW doing something to fix the absurd power of the various SM armies.
This is certainly the issue GK players will face despite the announced changes.
The army will fall apart, maybe not as easy as now but the ways to counter this are limited.
IH and IF are still out of reach.
Well, everything in 40K outside of a handful of things that have a "can't shoot this-strat", an Alpha-Legion-Disco-Lord -4 hit combo to take you out shooting threats despite re-rolls or a half-damage/iron-stone-style combo of resiliance is a glass cannon in 40K these days.
Most "old" benchmarks of defensiveness, whether it's Culexus Assassins, Plaguebearer blobs, 4++ Knights or -2/-3 Eldar planes these days just get leaf-blowered off the table as quickly as any random Guardsquad did at the beginning of the edition.
Question is, is the cannon part of the glasscannon good enough to win the games if you go first. That's about it.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, everything in 40K outside of a handful of things that have a "can't shoot this-strat", an Alpha-Legion-Disco-Lord -4 hit combo to take you out shooting threats despite re-rolls or a half-damage/iron-stone-style combo of resiliance is a glass cannon in 40K these days.
Most "old" benchmarks of defensiveness, whether it's Culexus Assassins, Plaguebearer blobs, 4++ Knights or -2/-3 Eldar planes these days just get leaf-blowered off the table as quickly as any random Guardsquad did at the beginning of the edition.
Question is, is the cannon part of the glasscannon good enough to win the games if you go first. That's about it.
Goes to show how killy the game has become, can't outright deny targeting, =glasscannon.
On the official warhammer 40k Facebook page they said yesterday there will be a release regarding GK primaris in the future.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo.
No, no they didn't.
It's the only time GW has responded to this question from the community, and they didn't promise a damn thing, or even say it's in our future.
Edit: Why do people want Primaris GKs? Just make them better, in the lore GKs are about a foot shorter than normal marines. If anything they should be smaller.
On the official warhammer 40k Facebook page they said yesterday there will be a release regarding GK primaris in the future.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo.
No, no they didn't.
It's the only time GW has responded to this question from the community, and they didn't promise a damn thing, or even say it's in our future.
Edit: Why do people want Primaris GKs? Just make them better, in the lore GKs are about a foot shorter than normal marines. If anything they should be smaller.
Not saying it should happen or not but I'm not sure why GK can't be primaris at this point in the story.
Originally iirc it was stated that there wasn't enough primaris marines with psyker ability to reinforce the GK; okay, fine but what about make new primaris psykers from existing "scouts".
Now, after the 100+ years of the Indomitus Crusade, you have multiple chapters with characters that have transitioned from normal marine to primaris marine. Each chapter that was visited was given the means to create primaris marines from trained scouts and the technology to upgrade standard marines.
In the fluff it takes 50 years of training before a GK is promoted to battle brother, what is the disconnect in the timing here? Why haven't the GK been allowed to make primaris marines from their existing "scout" cadre?
Lord Clinto wrote: Not saying it should happen or not but I'm not sure why GK can't be primaris at this point in the story.
Originally iirc it was stated that there wasn't enough primaris marines with psyker ability to reinforce the GK; okay, fine but what about make new primaris psykers from existing "scouts".
Now, after the 100+ years of the Indomitus Crusade, you have multiple chapters with characters that have transitioned from normal marine to primaris marine. Each chapter that was visited was given the means to create primaris marines from trained scouts and the technology to upgrade standard marines.
In the fluff it takes 50 years of training before a GK is promoted to battle brother, what is the disconnect in the timing here? Why haven't the GK been allowed to make primaris marines from their existing "scout" cadre?
This isn't exactly cannon, but it explains a lot. Starts @ 4:36
Lord Clinto wrote: Not saying it should happen or not but I'm not sure why GK can't be primaris at this point in the story.
Originally iirc it was stated that there wasn't enough primaris marines with psyker ability to reinforce the GK; okay, fine but what about make new primaris psykers from existing "scouts".
Now, after the 100+ years of the Indomitus Crusade, you have multiple chapters with characters that have transitioned from normal marine to primaris marine. Each chapter that was visited was given the means to create primaris marines from trained scouts and the technology to upgrade standard marines.
In the fluff it takes 50 years of training before a GK is promoted to battle brother, what is the disconnect in the timing here? Why haven't the GK been allowed to make primaris marines from their existing "scout" cadre?
GK don't have a scout cadre, you go straight from aspirant to battlebrother. The mind scrubing takes a long time, and the recreation of a new personality. If the turning you in to primaris regenerates you, there maybe a problem of the old personality coming back, and GK would not like that.
Cawl has access to the gene seed from all the Primarchs, but does he have the Emperor's gene seed too? Without it he wouldn't be able to make GK Primaris.
Lord Clinto wrote: Not saying it should happen or not but I'm not sure why GK can't be primaris at this point in the story.
Originally iirc it was stated that there wasn't enough primaris marines with psyker ability to reinforce the GK; okay, fine but what about make new primaris psykers from existing "scouts".
Now, after the 100+ years of the Indomitus Crusade, you have multiple chapters with characters that have transitioned from normal marine to primaris marine. Each chapter that was visited was given the means to create primaris marines from trained scouts and the technology to upgrade standard marines.
In the fluff it takes 50 years of training before a GK is promoted to battle brother, what is the disconnect in the timing here? Why haven't the GK been allowed to make primaris marines from their existing "scout" cadre?
GK don't have a scout cadre, you go straight from aspirant to battlebrother. The mind scrubing takes a long time, and the recreation of a new personality. If the turning you in to primaris regenerates you, there maybe a problem of the old personality coming back, and GK would not like that.
I know they don't have a scout cadre; that's why I put it in quotes. I just used the term "Scout Cadre" to represent the decades of training they get before becoming a battle brother.
And I must say Karol that that hands down has to be one of the best arguments/reasons I've ever heard for no GK Primaris so far.
Orodhen wrote: Cawl has access to the gene seed from all the Primarchs, but does he have the Emperor's gene seed too? Without it he wouldn't be able to make GK Primaris.
Correct me if i'm wrong but the Primaris gene-seed is a combination of all 20 Primarchs, both the fallen and loyal, including the lost chapters. I think this inherent difference is why we won't see Primaris GKs any time soon, as the Emperor is effectively their Primarch.
Orodhen wrote: Cawl has access to the gene seed from all the Primarchs, but does he have the Emperor's gene seed too? Without it he wouldn't be able to make GK Primaris.
furthermore when the primaris project began it's possiable the grey knights may not have been known about, so Cawl's orders may not have allowed him to do so "ArchMagos Cawl, make a new better space marine from the geneseed of each of the legions" would put grey knights specificly outside his remit.
So it could well be now that Gulliman is back and has modified the orders Cawl's got people working on creating primaris geneseed for grey knights but it may well take time
Orodhen wrote: Cawl has access to the gene seed from all the Primarchs, but does he have the Emperor's gene seed too? Without it he wouldn't be able to make GK Primaris.
Correct me if i'm wrong but the Primaris gene-seed is a combination of all 20 Primarchs, both the fallen and loyal, including the lost chapters. I think this inherent difference is why we won't see Primaris GKs any time soon, as the Emperor is effectively their Primarch.
If by combination you mean a collection of all 20 then yes. It's not like neapolitan Geneseed.
Also as far as I can see in the most recent codex there's no mention of where the Geneseed for GK comes from. I know people say that it comes from the emperor but I can't really get behind that idea since didn't he have to dilute his own DNA to make the Primarchs and then use their DNA to make their respective legion's?
Orodhen wrote: Cawl has access to the gene seed from all the Primarchs, but does he have the Emperor's gene seed too? Without it he wouldn't be able to make GK Primaris.
Correct me if i'm wrong but the Primaris gene-seed is a combination of all 20 Primarchs, both the fallen and loyal, including the lost chapters. I think this inherent difference is why we won't see Primaris GKs any time soon, as the Emperor is effectively their Primarch.
If by combination you mean a collection of all 20 then yes. It's not like neapolitan Geneseed.
Also as far as I can see in the most recent codex there's no mention of where the Geneseed for GK comes from. I know people say that it comes from the emperor but I can't really get behind that idea since didn't he have to dilute his own DNA to make the Primarchs and then use their DNA to make their respective legion's?
Personally i think it's one of the Knights Errant, not the Emperor, but that's good enough for me.
On the official warhammer 40k Facebook page they said yesterday there will be a release regarding GK primaris in the future.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo.
No, no they didn't.
It's the only time GW has responded to this question from the community, and they didn't promise a damn thing, or even say it's in our future.
Edit: Why do people want Primaris GKs? Just make them better, in the lore GKs are about a foot shorter than normal marines. If anything they should be smaller.
That’s my bad guys, apologies I misheard the YouTube clip tired as I was on my way to work in the morning. Regarding primaris GK though from a storyline and product standard personally I believe the transition to primaris is inevitable. Why would GW just maintain first gen marines for only GK? It doesn’t make sense. It does from a purely fanatical lore perspective but profit and ease of replication through different product lines trumps lore any day.
Orodhen wrote: Cawl has access to the gene seed from all the Primarchs, but does he have the Emperor's gene seed too? Without it he wouldn't be able to make GK Primaris.
Correct me if i'm wrong but the Primaris gene-seed is a combination of all 20 Primarchs, both the fallen and loyal, including the lost chapters. I think this inherent difference is why we won't see Primaris GKs any time soon, as the Emperor is effectively their Primarch.
If by combination you mean a collection of all 20 then yes. It's not like neapolitan Geneseed.
Also as far as I can see in the most recent codex there's no mention of where the Geneseed for GK comes from. I know people say that it comes from the emperor but I can't really get behind that idea since didn't he have to dilute his own DNA to make the Primarchs and then use their DNA to make their respective legion's?
Personally i think it's one of the Knights Errant, not the Emperor, but that's good enough for me.
In one of the HH books isn't there a reference to Omegon having an unpainted suit of power armor? Personally I'd say that makes things a lot more interesting for an origin than them being spawned from the holiest of holy.
On the official warhammer 40k Facebook page they said yesterday there will be a release regarding GK primaris in the future.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo.
No, no they didn't.
It's the only time GW has responded to this question from the community, and they didn't promise a damn thing, or even say it's in our future.
Edit: Why do people want Primaris GKs? Just make them better, in the lore GKs are about a foot shorter than normal marines. If anything they should be smaller.
That’s my bad guys, apologies I misheard the YouTube clip tired as I was on my way to work in the morning. Regarding primaris GK though from a storyline and product standard personally I believe the transition to primaris is inevitable. Why would GW just maintain first gen marines for only GK? It doesn’t make sense. It does from a purely fanatical lore perspective but profit and ease of replication through different product lines trumps lore any day.
I do think well get Primaris GKs(GW sales will drive this), but it might not happen in 9th, or at least at release (any time soon).
We won't get GK Primaris before DA/BA/SW get chapter specific units. Look at all Primaris releases so far (barring characters) they're for all marine armies. GK Primaris can only be sold to GK players
it's possible that we may see Primaris Grey Knights in the future, but we don't have anything to share on them at the moment
Thanks, yea, that is as noncommittal as it gets. Unsurprisingly got spun by people who like to read what they want to see.
Not only that, it's one of the social media staff responding to a question - as opposed to the time earlier in 8th where the question was asked to Studio staff, and got a flat "No." as an answer.
My vanguard detachment would like to have a word with you
don't they cost like 20-25pts? That is maybe not cheap, but hardly very expensive. My termintors cost over 30 pts, and I don't even use falchions that would buff their costs 2pts each.
My vanguard detachment would like to have a word with you
don't they cost like 20-25pts? That is maybe not cheap, but hardly very expensive. My termintors cost over 30 pts, and I don't even use falchions that would buff their costs 2pts each.
Paladins are 44 points for Halberd models, Falchions on anything with a base attack of 2 or greater is a waste. 472 points for a squad of 10. With the new buffs, stratagems. spells & litanies they can be:
-1 to hit
-1 to wound
-1 damage reduction
ignoring cover saves and negative hit modifiers
16x S9 -3AP 2DMG shots, on top of 40 S6 -2AP 2DMG bolter rounds
30 wounds @ T4
4+ invul, 3+ in combat
50 S6 -2AP D3 melee attacks
revenge fight on death
reroll hit rolls for ranged weapons at half distance (rapid fire range)
Yes, but I though we were comparing troops. Paladins comparing to something like RG centurions are laughable for the point cost. Same with those primaris dakka termintors.
Also the combination requires the use of multiple buff characters, and stratagems.
So you can essentially have a 10-man squad where every member has a Disintegrator-grade weapon, and if that unit dies you can use the combo somewhere else next turn?
Daedalus81 wrote: Uh, guys. Hey...uhh...Psybolt Ammo counts as a psi weapon.
So stormbolters will be S6 AP1 D2. Good night Intercessors.
Cool. will work nice on big unit of strikes or paladins.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So you can essentially have a 10-man squad where every member has a Disintegrator-grade weapon, and if that unit dies you can use the combo somewhere else next turn?
Yeah, that's gonna hurt.
It does cost 2 CP. and it is not like GK armies driped in those in the past. It is nice that the psychic power has synergy witht his though.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So you can essentially have a 10-man squad where every member has a Disintegrator-grade weapon, and if that unit dies you can use the combo somewhere else next turn?
Yeah, that's gonna hurt.
I think we're going to have a lot of tactical options depending on who your opponent happens to be. Imagine running max squad units. You can combat squad them and go full super smite spam, or keep the big units and just lay waste with bolter fire.
Daedalus81 wrote: Uh, guys. Hey...uhh...Psybolt Ammo counts as a psi weapon.
So stormbolters will be S6 AP1 D2. Good night Intercessors.
Cool. will work nice on big unit of strikes or paladins.
I was thinking Paladins and Interceptors, being able to alpha strike and double shoot in rapid fire range, that's 240 super bolter shots for 600 points worth of infantry.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So you can essentially have a 10-man squad where every member has a Disintegrator-grade weapon, and if that unit dies you can use the combo somewhere else next turn?
Yeah, that's gonna hurt.
That and psycannons can be S9 - D3 on the big ones.
GK will be less of a glass cannon. More of a glass howitzer. Hopefully those stay at 2 CP.
At the same time though, you want to run MSU to get more CPs, and each unit is still expensive as gak and will die just as easily as before if caught out.
I like these buffs. They have some really great potential, but there's also obvious weaknesses that you're gonna have to play around in order to not just get wiped off the table.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: At the same time though, you want to run MSU to get more CPs, and each unit is still expensive as gak and will die just as easily as before if caught out.
I'm running a test build this afternoon that's mostly mid-field ranged focused. Single battalion, vanguard, outrider. 10 CP to start the game and another 4-5 over the game with my psyker relic chaplain. I think that should be good considering i'm eating up 700+ points to buff one Highlander level unit (and won't need as much CP buffing multiple units).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: At the same time though, you want to run MSU to get more CPs, and each unit is still expensive as gak and will die just as easily as before if caught out.
I like these buffs. They have some really great potential, but there's also obvious weaknesses that you're gonna have to play around in order to not just get wiped off the table.
All the people arguing future rule changes for lore/logic reasons 10 pages back, hows that -1 to hit LR and bolter "psi" weapon taste?
...we're 7 pages in.
I was referring to the other thread, where people were arguing the only psi weapon was the Psilncer and the LR wouldn't get Shadows because it's not a psyker model.
Edit: There is also a third GK tactics thread discussing the same topics.
RAW your Landraider gets -1 as soon as it only touches Terrain with the edge of its tracks.
The BRBFAQ states clearly that only if the rule says "WHOLLY within" then you need the whole base/modell.
But Tide of shadows says entirely within, that is copy/pasted from the general Cover Rule, and that gives you cover (or -1 to hit in this case) as soon as a part of the modell/base is in terrain.
Maybe they FAQ this later, for now our LRs and SRs just need to touch a Terrain Piece for Cover and -1 to hit
stormcraft wrote: RAW your Landraider gets -1 as soon as it only touches Terrain with the edge of its tracks.
The BRBFAQ states clearly that only if the rule says "WHOLLY within" then you need the whole base/modell.
But Tide of shadows says entirely within, that is copy/pasted from the general Cover Rule, and that gives you cover (or -1 to hit in this case) as soon as a part of the modell/base is in terrain.
Maybe they FAQ this later, for now our LRs and SRs just need to touch a Terrain Piece for Cover and -1 to hit
I thought it's down to whether or not the rule refers to a unit being entirely within (which would mean all models are at least partially within) or if it's asking for models being entirely within, which would mean all of the models must be completely within the terrain.
stormcraft wrote: RAW your Landraider gets -1 as soon as it only touches Terrain with the edge of its tracks.
The BRBFAQ states clearly that only if the rule says "WHOLLY within" then you need the whole base/modell.
But Tide of shadows says entirely within, that is copy/pasted from the general Cover Rule, and that gives you cover (or -1 to hit in this case) as soon as a part of the modell/base is in terrain.
Maybe they FAQ this later, for now our LRs and SRs just need to touch a Terrain Piece for Cover and -1 to hit
My opponents will certainly object.
Within or completely within is the question.
But when it comes to terrain/cover, completely within will be the right formulation.
They will certainly change it.
Na, the Tide of Shadows Rule Rule say "Units....Entirely Within", and the entirely refers to the unit, so the Entire unit, as in all models of the unit.
We will have to wait and see if they FAQ it to "Wholly within", until then you get -1 for just touching with the base(es) of all model(s)
Xenomancers wrote: Would be cool to use a storm raven but without the -2 it is utterly unplayable.
Right, which is why we never see Stormravens in different factions of marines or at different points of the 40k competitive meta, like that time there were so many of them they created the Boots on the Ground rule to combat their spamming, or the time right now where they occasionally feature in competitive IH lists.
Different marines cost less, then GKs . 250pts is not the same in an army that has scouts, and can build around high point units, and an army that has 17-30pts troops. Specialy when the said army can't skip on the troops and take something else more powerful or cheaper.
Xenomancers wrote: Would be cool to use a storm raven but without the -2 it is utterly unplayable.
GK can kick the Raven from edge to edge in a turn with their new spell. You can come from the back corner to near a friendly unit upfield and in the psychic phase shoot and then move 45" out of threat range.
Xenomancers wrote: Would be cool to use a storm raven but without the -2 it is utterly unplayable.
Right, which is why we never see Stormravens in different factions of marines or at different points of the 40k competitive meta, like that time there were so many of them they created the Boots on the Ground rule to combat their spamming, or the time right now where they occasionally feature in competitive IH lists.
Uhh maybe before armies had codex. They havnt been a thing since then. Plus been nerfed significantly in price too. No reason to bring an Ironhands storm raven. A storm hawk is an easy 100 point discount and has the same weapons for the cost of 3 total wounds but gets reroll 1's for saves and an additional -1 against flyers. They just cost too much and their transport ability is pretty worthless too. Anything you put in there just dies 1/6 when the thing inevitably blows up. The only reason I can think anyone would use it is to let it blow with the stratagem for d6 mortal wounds...which is also pretty useless because you can just move away from it.
There was a time where fireraptors were a thing but they also got nerfed...right after they got dropped. They are pretty awful. You can't even hide them. Ironhands can also give the thing -1 damage turn 1 and heal the thing with psychic powers. As with everything - it's just better as Ironhands. With the way transports work you pay a premium to basically be a turn 1 bunker which you don't need. Just hide in a building. Boots on the ground also didn't stop competitive eldar lists from bringing 6 flyers ether. The reason SR weren't played is because they are bad - as were marines. Interestingly enough - A GK SR is also the worst storm raven - as it doesn't get doctrines or benefit from all but 1 of 4 of the tides.
Xenomancers wrote: Would be cool to use a storm raven but without the -2 it is utterly unplayable.
GK can kick the Raven from edge to edge in a turn with their new spell. You can come from the back corner to near a friendly unit upfield and in the psychic phase shoot and then move 45" out of threat range.
Even if you could manage to hide it. It is still inferior to a storm hawk in that roll. It might hit a little better but it also costs 100 more points. FFS for it's cost you can get a storm surge. It needs to come down about 50 points to be considered.
stormcraft wrote: RAW your Landraider gets -1 as soon as it only touches Terrain with the edge of its tracks.
The BRBFAQ states clearly that only if the rule says "WHOLLY within" then you need the whole base/modell.
But Tide of shadows says entirely within, that is copy/pasted from the general Cover Rule, and that gives you cover (or -1 to hit in this case) as soon as a part of the modell/base is in terrain.
Maybe they FAQ this later, for now our LRs and SRs just need to touch a Terrain Piece for Cover and -1 to hit
My opponents will certainly object.
Within or completely within is the question.
But when it comes to terrain/cover, completely within will be the right formulation.
They will certainly change it.
Why do you assume this was an oversight or mistake? They do something to make Land Raiders viable for the worst faction in the game and someone objects? them
In GK case every oversight, like for example GW forgeting that interceptors dont have fly, so the fly change to charge won't affect them, ends as an oversight and not something GW deliberatly planed.
But who knows, GW sometimes does errata and FAQs that are so unexpected it is hard to pin point why they are done.
Even if you could manage to hide it. It is still inferior to a storm hawk in that roll. It might hit a little better but it also costs 100 more points. FFS for it's cost you can get a storm surge. It needs to come down about 50 points to be considered.
Even 48" guns cannot cover 90" of movement in a turn.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, in the world of IH and Imperial/Crimson Fists I wouldn't take tanks (flyers) if necessary.
We are better off with infantry these days.
What do you take for anti-vehicle then?
If you remove LR and SR, other than 'dreads and razorbacks GK doesn't really have much anti-vehicle shooting.
S5, D3+1 Psilencers with reroll to wounds is pretty effective at removing armour.
A single Psilencer Squad does 10 Wound to Knight in ToC with Bring down the Beats...and thats a 89 Point Squad.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, in the world of IH and Imperial/Crimson Fists I wouldn't take tanks (flyers) if necessary.
We are better off with infantry these days.
What do you take for anti-vehicle then?
If you remove LR and SR, other than 'dreads and razorbacks GK doesn't really have much anti-vehicle shooting.
Well, flyers and LR usually approach the enemy which (in case of the above armies) castles up.
This could be bad news due to their special rules.
Its better to keep the anti-tank in the back field.
stormcraft wrote: S5, D3+1 Psilencers with reroll to wounds is pretty effective at removing armour.
A single Psilencer Squad does 10 Wound to Knight in ToC with Bring down the Beats...and thats a 89 Point Squad.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, in the world of IH and Imperial/Crimson Fists I wouldn't take tanks (flyers) if necessary.
We are better off with infantry these days.
What do you take for anti-vehicle then?
If you remove LR and SR, other than 'dreads and razorbacks GK doesn't really have much anti-vehicle shooting.
Psy cannons will be adequate for that job - basically 2 str 8 autocannons.
stormcraft wrote: S5, D3+1 Psilencers with reroll to wounds is pretty effective at removing armour.
A single Psilencer Squad does 10 Wound to Knight in ToC with Bring down the Beats...and thats a 89 Point Squad.
And D2 smites. And S9 AP2 D2 Psycannons.
GK have no issues taking down any unit now.
D2 smites across the board when using that Tide (can't remember the name) is one of the under valued sleeper rules that I've noticed a lot of reviewers etc not touch on as much. It's very easy for GK to kick out 18+ MW each psychic phase now, even more so against Daemons
Well, it's not like the possessed bomb has done much so far (though Flat 4 Damage smites aren't something the Disco Lord or the Possessed like, lol).
It does have a few counter. Kraken Genestealers eat the Possessed. Vect has the Possessed's numbers. Forlorn Fury Death Company murder Possessed. Even in the Mirror-Match a Warp-time Morty or Disco Lord is bad news. Dark Reapers don't care one way or another.
It's just that Codex Marines (and I guess Tau and Necrons) have a rough match-up against the Possessed, which makes it interesting if everyone happens to be playing Codex Marines.
You only have a rough matchup against Possessed if you're super bad at the game. Yawn.
The only Tides that will be used are the cover one against a super shooty army and the +1MW against anything else or an army that just straight ignores cover. The other two are strictly jokes. Those alone are nice for the pure army, but the new rules for nothing to fix the fact Terminators are straight up worse than Paladins, nor does it fix the fact all the base PA units have the A1 characteristic.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You only have a rough matchup against Possessed if you're super bad at the game. Yawn.
I think counterplay is possible. You can tank smites on Nurglings with a 5+++. If you're running an Epitome, it shrugs MWs on 2's and can resurrect for 2CP. And of course Chaos has a lot of access to abilities that hurt Psykers, like periling on doubles within 12" of a MoP, forcing 2D3 MW through Daemons stratagems, debuff and denial, etc.
It sounds like a pretty fun matchup, honestly. Though of course I'm looking at it from the perspective of the Possessed bomb player.
NurglesR0T wrote: Pretty much. 3 casts of 4+ smite to delete a discordant lord is insane.
MSUGK are definitely back in a big way
A Disco lord at -4 to hit is insane. It deserves to be countered by something equally insane IMO.
Honestly its the first time in a long time that GK have looked like they might frighten the things they are supposed to frighten - anything with the Daemon keyword. No need to change that.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There's also a Litany that lets GK ignore to-hit modifiers, so you can just sit back, shoot the Lord Discordant and then finish it with smites.
Disco lord isn't a demon, but his mount is! Go balls deep with those 4 DMG smites.
MiguelFelstone wrote: Disco lord isn't a demon, but his mount is! Go balls deep with those 4 DMG smites.
It has the Daemon keyword, which is all that matters and almost no defense vs Smite spam. GK will obliterate him, and quite likely the Possessed behind him. If it didn't get nerfed in the first FAQ post-F&F it's probably not getting nerfed. But please continue with the conjecture argument.
MiguelFelstone wrote: Disco lord isn't a demon, but his mount is! Go balls deep with those 4 DMG smites.
It has the Daemon keyword, which is all that matters and almost no defense vs Smite spam. GK will obliterate him, and quite likely the Possessed behind him. If it didn't get nerfed in the first FAQ post-F&F it's probably not getting nerfed. But please continue with the conjecture argument.
I am pretty disappointed that the psi weapon tide does not affect vehicals. I was excited to bust out some vortimer pattern razors. Honestly I am glad the army has moved away from GMDK spam though because they are not great looking or fun to use.
I wish they had worded the shooty tide to only enhance normal psy cannons / twin psy / and psilencers. That way they would not and not buffing GMDK which didn't need a buff.
MiguelFelstone wrote: Disco lord isn't a demon, but his mount is! Go balls deep with those 4 DMG smites.
It has the Daemon keyword, which is all that matters and almost no defense vs Smite spam. GK will obliterate him, and quite likely the Possessed behind him. If it didn't get nerfed in the first FAQ post-F&F it's probably not getting nerfed. But please continue with the conjecture argument.
I don't think he was arguing against it.
Def was not, just trying to inject some levity, lighten up fellas.
Which is awesome in a way, as I wasn't able to order a CA for myself. There are no GK players here other then me, only one person owns 1ksons models, and I doubt any of the marine players are going to jump on to playing DAs. With my christmas and birthday money, the book and a 5man box of strikes is all but my.
you man 
