Ok so we're getting new Forge World Indexes (at least that's what I'm calling them for now).

So what do we expect and what are we hoping for? Will they fix r&h? Eldar Corsairs? Dkok?

Will they just update points or data sheets?

A return of Legacies of Ruin and whatever the loyalist version was?

Everything but that last one, probably. CA makes a little more sense now.

I'm hoping it's an overhaul and not just points updates as CA already covers that. Renegade and Heretics are one of the glaring problems rules wise given how crappy their rules are.

They'll probably address the overuse of leviathan dreadnought and touch up on stuff that should be FW strengths, mainly the superheavies.

Really hoping they make a lot of the Ork vehicles worth taking this time around.

I'm hoping they're full treatment overhauls, but I suspect it'll probably just be a few bug fixes and points adjustments.

I'd really like to run a DKoK list again, but they're just so clunky and expensive and unsupported relative to the codex that there's just no point.

Given I'm in the middle of having a massive 3000 dollar DkoK army built and painted professionally, they'd better damn well keep the army, hopefully they will add new units and some of the other guard things, as well as balance some of the rules.

One i am hoping for is the stupid rule related to the carcass rounds for engineers. There is zero (balance) reason to have these get hot. removing it and leaving the rest of the profile as is, would be fantastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm hoping they're full treatment overhauls, but I suspect it'll probably just be a few bug fixes and points adjustments.

I'd really like to run a DKoK list again, but they're just so clunky and expensive and unsupported relative to the codex that there's just no point.

They probably don't do well in terms of compet, but they're amazing fun on the casual scene. Here is hoping that they get rules revisions including CoS becoming all phases, not just shooting.

Sadly I think we will see a lot of stuff disappear from the books into the annals of the time that was.. No model no rules and no legends..

I am curious though how much of an overhaul there will be. Perhaps my wraith seers will get a smite and not become ludicrously overcosted... Wonder if I should even bother building the shadow specters lol.

Is there an expected time table on these new books? I'm very concerned, I have extremely limited time to cancel my DkoK order so that I can wait to see what will happen.

 Togusa wrote:
Is there an expected time table on these new books? I'm very concerned, I have extremely limited time to cancel my DkoK order so that I can wait to see what will happen.

Within the next 6 months usually if we're seeing the reveal now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Is there an expected time table on these new books? I'm very concerned, I have extremely limited time to cancel my DkoK order so that I can wait to see what will happen.

Within the next 6 months usually if we're seeing the reveal now.

That's good, hopefully sooner rather than later. Do you or does anyone else in the thread happen to know what the email address for the rules team is?

So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team?

Wonder if they'll be sold through gw or fw. Think they'll have them at actual stores? Feth I hope they don't mess this up. Don't see why it should take long for release. You know they probably already have them printed.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

I just realized if they give r&h a rework then that's our traitor guard rumour confirmed. They better not mess up my marauders. Not Online!!! should be happy.

Please make my Heirodules not completely suck. Please???

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I just realized if they give r&h a rework then that's our traitor guard rumour confirmed. They better not mess up my marauders. Not Online!!! should be happy.

Wait wait wait, gw has officially announced new fw books?
Well not really fw books but you get my meaning?


Honestly i hope that they bring back the old trait System. And the customizability. Probably not but frankly at this Point it's just nice for once to exist in gw's eyes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

If it's done by GW main studio expect bad rules. They have vested interest in gamers not buying those models instead of more profitable plastic ones.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I just realized if they give r&h a rework then that's our traitor guard rumour confirmed. They better not mess up my marauders. Not Online!!! should be happy.

Wait wait wait, gw has officially announced new fw books?
Well not really fw books but you get my meaning?


Honestly i hope that they bring back the old trait System. And the customizability. Probably not but frankly at this Point it's just nice for once to exist in gw's eyes.

Well traitor guard have been rumored for a while. Guess it was a rework of r&h after all. At least I hope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

If it's done by GW main studio expect bad rules. They have vested interest in gamers not buying those models instead of more profitable plastic ones.

Then why do they make them if they don't want to sell them? And why are they making new rules instead of just sticking them in legends Sunshine?

They do sell them. There's people who aren't gamers. Those who aren't just spamming best units and instead have "one of that, one of this, another that". Variety rather than spam. If they didn't make FW units they would have less units to sell and those would thus buy less. If you have 10 units to sell you sell 10 kits.

If you have 20 you sell 20. 30? 30. So if you have more units to sell you get more money from those. But at lower profit rate per unit than with plastic. Thus for gamers who buy as much of best as possible you want to sell plastic as they will buy best and ignore the bad units.

That's how you get GW upping cost of unit already not even appearing in tournaments by 300%.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I just realized if they give r&h a rework then that's our traitor guard rumour confirmed. They better not mess up my marauders. Not Online!!! should be happy.

Wait wait wait, gw has officially announced new fw books?
Well not really fw books but you get my meaning?


Honestly i hope that they bring back the old trait System. And the customizability. Probably not but frankly at this Point it's just nice for once to exist in gw's eyes.

Well traitor guard have been rumored for a while. Guess it was a rework of r&h after all. At least I hope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

If it's done by GW main studio expect bad rules. They have vested interest in gamers not buying those models instead of more profitable plastic ones.

Then why do they make them if they don't want to sell them? And why are they making new rules instead of just sticking them in legends Sunshine?

Well, they may be intending to make decent rules. Or at least not bad ones.... We'll just have to wait & see.

I also hope the Ork options are fixed. At least brought up to codex level.

I also hope the most offending and often spammed FW units are hit hard with the nerf bat. Some units are bonkers OP.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I also hope the Ork options are fixed. At least brought up to codex level.

I also hope the most offending and often spammed FW units are hit hard with the nerf bat. Some units are bonkers OP.

Me too because after seeing that Ghazkkull preview I think I might be starting an ork army this year and if I do I'm going to need a squigoth....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
They do sell them. There's people who aren't gamers. Those who aren't just spamming best units and instead have "one of that, one of this, another that". Variety rather than spam. If they didn't make FW units they would have less units to sell and those would thus buy less. If you have 10 units to sell you sell 10 kits.

If you have 20 you sell 20. 30? 30. So if you have more units to sell you get more money from those. But at lower profit rate per unit than with plastic. Thus for gamers who buy as much of best as possible you want to sell plastic as they will buy best and ignore the bad units.

That's how you get GW upping cost of unit already not even appearing in tournaments by 300%.

People who don't spam units are still gamers. We're just gamers who care about the setting and lore beyond it just being a game. Don't you have something to min/max somewhere?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I also hope the Ork options are fixed. At least brought up to codex level.

I also hope the most offending and often spammed FW units are hit hard with the nerf bat. Some units are bonkers OP.

E.g. leviatahns?

You realise that they only get eregious on the loyalist side due to some very well known gw created supplement offenders?

The correct thing would be to not treat symptomes but the core issue.

Right, a Leviathan isn't much different than a Land Raider or RepEx except for the Invul save.

Yeah I would expect Leviathans to get toned down, and also Chaplain Dreads likely get axed due to no model. Those things alone should help the meta slightly.

Wish listing, I hope we get a few more HH units coming over to 40k. Osiron Dreads for me personally would be great - if anyone should have psychic dreadnoughts it's the Thousand Sons!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Right, a Leviathan isn't much different than a Land Raider or RepEx except for the Invul save.

And 2+ to hit and better weapons.

I bet Corsairs will still be trash....

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I bet Corsairs will still be trash....

honestly, i fear we will not see corsairs.

Think about it:
R&H got basically their skelleton crew and unit options with some added bling in BSF. (also probably the most likely to propperly recive something decent out of this)

DKoK, i guess could be made in plastic. Further BSF lasguns are the same pattern that DKoK uses.

corsairs preety much have nothing to show, yet.

tneva82 wrote:
They do sell them. There's people who aren't gamers. Those who aren't just spamming best units and instead have "one of that, one of this, another that". Variety rather than spam. If they didn't make FW units they would have less units to sell and those would thus buy less. If you have 10 units to sell you sell 10 kits.

If you have 20 you sell 20. 30? 30. So if you have more units to sell you get more money from those. But at lower profit rate per unit than with plastic. Thus for gamers who buy as much of best as possible you want to sell plastic as they will buy best and ignore the bad units.

That's how you get GW upping cost of unit already not even appearing in tournaments by 300%.

So what you mean is, they're making amazing kits for the majority (none tournament players) which they don't want to sell because the minority (tournament players) can be persuaded easily to buy 1-2 kits on repeat. Besides as much as resin costs more to make individual models, i always thought making a plastic kit cost more in pre-production?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I also hope the Ork options are fixed. At least brought up to codex level.

I also hope the most offending and often spammed FW units are hit hard with the nerf bat. Some units are bonkers OP.

E.g. leviatahns?

You realise that they only get eregious on the loyalist side due to some very well known gw created supplement offenders?

The correct thing would be to not treat symptomes but the core issue.

Gw could just handle it the way they handled the fire frenzy strategem for csm. Duty eternal can't be played on relic units. Of course that would hurt the poster boys wouldn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They do sell them. There's people who aren't gamers. Those who aren't just spamming best units and instead have "one of that, one of this, another that". Variety rather than spam. If they didn't make FW units they would have less units to sell and those would thus buy less. If you have 10 units to sell you sell 10 kits.

If you have 20 you sell 20. 30? 30. So if you have more units to sell you get more money from those. But at lower profit rate per unit than with plastic. Thus for gamers who buy as much of best as possible you want to sell plastic as they will buy best and ignore the bad units.

That's how you get GW upping cost of unit already not even appearing in tournaments by 300%.

So what you mean is, they're making amazing kits for the majority (none tournament players) which they don't want to sell because the minority (tournament players) can be persuaded easily to buy 1-2 kits on repeat. Besides as much as resin costs more to make individual models, i always thought making a plastic kit cost more in pre-production?

The whole idea that gw makes some models but doesn't want to sell them is about as illogical as you can get.

Gw could just handle it the way they handled the fire frenzy strategem for csm. Duty eternal can't be played on relic units. Of course that would hurt the poster boys wouldn't it?

yeah, most likely, but he let all other fractions suffer that share that unit, because feth common sense and joe, stack more special rules on that Trait for this preety unknown SM chapter, because 3 is not enough ...

Not Online!!! wrote:
The correct thing would be to not treat symptomes but the core issue.

But this is GW. The only way they know how to balance rules is through swinging a giant pendulum.

If a minor part of the community are abusing Leviathan dreads, then you better believe they're going to be nerfed into the ground because GW has only one option besides leaving them as they are.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The correct thing would be to not treat symptomes but the core issue.

But this is GW. The only way they know how to balance rules is through swinging a giant pendulum.

If a minor part of the community are abusing Leviathan dreads, then you better believe they're going to be nerfed into the ground because GW has only one option besides leaving them as they are.

correction, a pendulum would have a middlepoint it would eventually reach.
They are more likely to use this method due to the more random results, allbeit with an adapted table.
.

They need to tune stratagems by power level. There's a huge difference in value for a stratagem like Cacaphony for 3x Oblits versus 5x CSM with a plasma gun and combi.

It goes the same way for Duty Eternal. 1CP is probably alright for a ~100pt Dread in a 500pts game. At 2000pts when you're sitting on 13-18CP, it's more than fair to ask for 2CP on a Leviathan.

 Argive wrote:
Sadly I think we will see a lot of stuff disappear from the books into the annals of the time that was.. No model no rules and no legends..

I am curious though how much of an overhaul there will be. Perhaps my wraith seers will get a smite and not become ludicrously overcosted... Wonder if I should even bother building the shadow specters lol.

Agree. I imagine the Chaplain Dread will disappear so a lot of current lists are going to go the way of the Dodo unless FW starts making them again.

Yoyoyo wrote:
They need to tune stratagems by power level. There's a huge difference in value for a stratagem like Cacaphony for 3x Oblits versus 5x CSM with a plasma gun and combi.

It goes the same way for Duty Eternal. 1CP is probably alright for a ~100pt Dread in a 500pts game. At 2000pts when you're sitting on 13-18CP, it's more than fair to ask for 2CP on a Leviathan.

or just get rid of the gotcha combo system entierly....

but yeah adapted cost for them would be very nice.

I do really like the idea that CP can influence your tactical objectives in the GW missions, it's an opportunity cost to to investing 5CP to pull off some stupid combo.

Things like Prepared Positions, scout moves, unit customization -- they're all pretty good. It's more the "y0u acTibaTED mY tRap cArd" nonsense that needs to go.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I do really like the idea that CP can influence your tactical objectives in the GW missions, it's an opportunity cost to to investing 5CP to pull off some stupid combo.

Things like Prepared Positions, scout moves, unit customization -- they're all pretty good. It's more the "y0u acTibaTED mY tRap cArd" nonsense that needs to go.

unit customization?
No
, feth that, AA missiles? sure as hell shouldn't be only available because your havoc champion asked your CSM lord to use one under punishment of ripping his soul a new behind.
That stuff has to go and instead be a propper unit upgrade with point costs.
Not to mention that unit customization sitiing behind CP, does mean that factions with cheap allies get a lot more of these units then other factions.

So hard pass on that.

I'm thinking of something like Red Butchers.

Maybe look at it as your warlord requistioned them from high command?

CP generation is a whole other issue and I think you need to look at that separately, maybe tie it to PL rather than the FOC chart.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm thinking of something like Red Butchers.

Maybe look at it as your warlord requistioned them from high command?

CP generation is a whole other issue and I think you need to look at that separately, maybe tie it to PL rather than the FOC chart.

same difference, also why use points as primary balancing tool then?

Why not make a propper unit entry?
Why not make a sub entry for an upgrade?

no, same differncce, same bs.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I also hope the Ork options are fixed. At least brought up to codex level.

I also hope the most offending and often spammed FW units are hit hard with the nerf bat. Some units are bonkers OP.

E.g. leviatahns?

You realise that they only get eregious on the loyalist side due to some very well known gw created supplement offenders?

The correct thing would be to not treat symptomes but the core issue.

Gw could just handle it the way they handled the fire frenzy strategem for csm. Duty eternal can't be played on relic units. Of course that would hurt the poster boys wouldn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They do sell them. There's people who aren't gamers. Those who aren't just spamming best units and instead have "one of that, one of this, another that". Variety rather than spam. If they didn't make FW units they would have less units to sell and those would thus buy less. If you have 10 units to sell you sell 10 kits.

If you have 20 you sell 20. 30? 30. So if you have more units to sell you get more money from those. But at lower profit rate per unit than with plastic. Thus for gamers who buy as much of best as possible you want to sell plastic as they will buy best and ignore the bad units.

That's how you get GW upping cost of unit already not even appearing in tournaments by 300%.

So what you mean is, they're making amazing kits for the majority (none tournament players) which they don't want to sell because the minority (tournament players) can be persuaded easily to buy 1-2 kits on repeat. Besides as much as resin costs more to make individual models, i always thought making a plastic kit cost more in pre-production?

The whole idea that gw makes some models but doesn't want to sell them is about as illogical as you can get.

Certain Strats not affecting units "because" is super inconsistent though. The LOGICAL way to go about it is make it 1CP for Dreads below 11 wounds, and 2CP for Dreads 11+ wounds.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I also hope the Ork options are fixed. At least brought up to codex level.

I also hope the most offending and often spammed FW units are hit hard with the nerf bat. Some units are bonkers OP.

E.g. leviatahns?

You realise that they only get eregious on the loyalist side due to some very well known gw created supplement offenders?

The correct thing would be to not treat symptomes but the core issue.

Is duty eternal bad, because it's on a 3+ T7 dread or a 2+ T8 dread?

They could fix the cp cost for Levi's, but there's more than one way to skin a grot.

Sure, i agree with that, but let me ask you a question, do you think GW will not just use the tried and tested NERFBAT TO THE GROIN instead via points?

Regarding Points Vs. CP: I think one benefit is less committment and less book-keeping.

Want to fire a flakk missile? 1CP. If it's a unit upgrade, you have to pay an extra 15pts for your one-use missile, need to record it in the roster, and it's wasted if there's no valid target.

I don't have terribly strong feelings on this, the differences are mostly minor on the table. What's the difference if the Serpent Shield is a stratagem or a datasheet ability? Very little, but it's arguably future-proofing the datasheet if you move the special abilities to stratagems.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Sure, i agree with that, but let me ask you a question, do you think GW will not just use the tried and tested NERFBAT TO THE GROIN instead via points?

Hard to say, given there are new books coming out the leviathan might not be what it is now. Since they're having an official main studio focus now some codex stuff may factor in FW units more often, or maybe the profile might not be t8, maybe the invuln will go down a little, maybe the weapons will be re-worked. Who knows at this stage, but a bat to the nads is most likely admittedly.

I hope it's not all Imperial and Chaos.
I hope Xenos factions get love.

 Blndmage wrote:
I hope it's not all Imperial and Chaos.
I hope Xenos factions get love.

They're replacing the FW index books, why wouldn't they?

Very much expecting this to be a reworking of the rules for everything currently listed on their website. I am very much hoping the Xenos units get the love they need, it is very frustrating having a 330pt Lynx that has less firepower than a Fire Prism.

I expect everything not made currently will swiftly be Legends. So bye bye a horde of units.

They just posted up an article.

Also, a mock-up page spread:

My wishlist:

-Badab War/Forgeworld Space Marine chapters get the full Space Marine Codex treatment (Chapter Special Rules/Strategems/Relics, etc.)
-DKoK brought in line with the Codex in terms of Doctrines/Orders/Strategems/Relics
-Elysians the same (but I'll settle for simply not being squatted now that the minis range is discontinued)
-Malcador tanks adjusted to make them worth taking
-Avenger cannon stats to be made consistent (ASF has it at Heavy 8, Knights have it at Heavy 12, give the ASF the extra 4 shots please and thank you).
-Eldar Corsairs to return as an army list
-Knarloc Riders/Great Knarlocs to have matched play points

MMMMMMMMMMM. Tasty, but I really wish they gave some more info. Alas, waiting it is.

I hope they fix Malcador and Macharius tanks as well as the static artillery carriages. My Krieg boys need some help (regimental tactics for our vehicles would be nice).

Cool we go from Index 1.0 to Index 2.0


If Corsairs are in it still, and my Tantalus isnt freaking 400pts i might pick 1 up.

chaos0xomega wrote:

-Elysians the same (but I'll settle for simply not being squatted now that the minis range is discontinued)

If they aren't Legends I will breath in my resin dust.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Cool we go from Index 1.0 to Index 2.0


If Corsairs are in it still, and my Tantalus isnt freaking 400pts i might pick 1 up.

I legit forgot the Tantalus was even a thing. Could easily drop 50-100 points and nobody would bat an eye.

Maybe they'll finally give me rules for Skulltakers Legion! Or, just fix Zhufor to work with WE too.

Also, make the Arch Daemons more affordable points wise. An'Grrath is solid, not 888 points solid.

 chimeara wrote:
Maybe they'll finally give me rules for Skulltakers Legion! Or, just fix Zhufor to work with WE too.

Also, make the Arch Daemons more affordable points wise. An'Grrath is solid, not 888 points solid.

He should work. He has the World Eaters keyword.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

-Elysians the same (but I'll settle for simply not being squatted now that the minis range is discontinued)

If they aren't Legends I will breath in my resin dust.

Yeah, I would be extremely surprised if out of production models are in the new book. And if not, that means Legends.

That will also go for the Chaplain Dreadnought.

Just bring my Plague Hulk on the level of a defiler and the Blight Drone on the level of Bloat Drone. That's all I need really.

If they ever make rules for the 30K mechanicum to be used in 40K that could cost me a lot of money...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Maybe they'll finally give me rules for Skulltakers Legion! Or, just fix Zhufor to work with WE too.

Also, make the Arch Daemons more affordable points wise. An'Grrath is solid, not 888 points solid.

He should work. He has the World Eaters keyword.

That he does. However, his reroll aura is only for 'Skulltakers'.

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

If it's done by GW main studio expect bad rules. They have vested interest in gamers not buying those models instead of more profitable plastic ones.

The money all goes to the same place. This is not true at all....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My wishlist:

-Badab War/Forgeworld Space Marine chapters get the full Space Marine Codex treatment (Chapter Special Rules/Strategems/Relics, etc.)
-DKoK brought in line with the Codex in terms of Doctrines/Orders/Strategems/Relics
-Elysians the same (but I'll settle for simply not being squatted now that the minis range is discontinued)
-Malcador tanks adjusted to make them worth taking
-Avenger cannon stats to be made consistent (ASF has it at Heavy 8, Knights have it at Heavy 12, give the ASF the extra 4 shots please and thank you).
-Eldar Corsairs to return as an army list
-Knarloc Riders/Great Knarlocs to have matched play points

I agree on the DkoK, but I'd like to add that they need their army list expanded too.

 chimeara wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Maybe they'll finally give me rules for Skulltakers Legion! Or, just fix Zhufor to work with WE too.

Also, make the Arch Daemons more affordable points wise. An'Grrath is solid, not 888 points solid.

He should work. He has the World Eaters keyword.

That he does. However, his reroll aura is only for 'Skulltakers'.

OH that's what you're referencing. Yeah not much you can do about that unfortunately. It has to be house ruled significantly. Most people would probably just tell you to run his aura as "World Eaters" but GW needs to fix it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My wishlist:

-Badab War/Forgeworld Space Marine chapters get the full Space Marine Codex treatment (Chapter Special Rules/Strategems/Relics, etc.)
-DKoK brought in line with the Codex in terms of Doctrines/Orders/Strategems/Relics
-Elysians the same (but I'll settle for simply not being squatted now that the minis range is discontinued)
-Malcador tanks adjusted to make them worth taking
-Avenger cannon stats to be made consistent (ASF has it at Heavy 8, Knights have it at Heavy 12, give the ASF the extra 4 shots please and thank you).
-Eldar Corsairs to return as an army list
-Knarloc Riders/Great Knarlocs to have matched play points

FWIW, at least the Badab Characters have interesting rules at minimum, and they just need some point updates.

Kind of hard to read but that looks exactly the same. Just a shot of the current index. Honestly the current rules are fine. The just need a drop of about 300-350 points. Preferably closer to 350.

I just hope we don't lose any Xenos models. Losing things that don't have a model is one thing, but losing more models is a bad thing every time.



Also is there any good reason to pick any of the current books up for content other than rules?

What a great opportunity to pay them again in the hopes that they'll fix the last broken product they sold us.

 Overread wrote:
I just hope we don't lose any Xenos models. Losing things that don't have a model is one thing, but losing more models is a bad thing every time.



Also is there any good reason to pick any of the current books up for content other than rules?

Only content in the current Indexes is rules. No art, minimal fluff blurbs.

 Overread wrote:
I just hope we don't lose any Xenos models. Losing things that don't have a model is one thing, but losing more models is a bad thing every time.



Also is there any good reason to pick any of the current books up for content other than rules?

Negative. I had been using an internet copy, but I was about to buy the current book. I'm so glad I looked at the WarCon site last night. Saved me about 40$.

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

If it's done by GW main studio expect bad rules. They have vested interest in gamers not buying those models instead of more profitable plastic ones.

So what was forgeworld's excuse? Because newsflash, the FW indexes were the worst pile of garbage either studio has crapped out for a long time.

Most of the units are useless, some are outright non-functional and the ones that ARE good are almost universally hilariously OP (chaplain dreads, leviathan, super chicken back in the day.)

When you say stuff like this you should really acknowledge that the rules are gak NOW.

ERJAK wrote:
...So what was forgeworld's excuse? Because newsflash, the FW indexes were the worst pile of garbage either studio has crapped out for a long time...

...The transition got sprung on them around the same time the studio lead died?

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

If it's done by GW main studio expect bad rules. They have vested interest in gamers not buying those models instead of more profitable plastic ones.

So what was forgeworld's excuse? Because newsflash, the FW indexes were the worst pile of garbage either studio has crapped out for a long time.

Most of the units are useless, some are outright non-functional and the ones that ARE good are almost universally hilariously OP (chaplain dreads, leviathan, super chicken back in the day.)

When you say stuff like this you should really acknowledge that the rules are gak NOW.

Except those units aren't overpowered. So you're wrong.

My #1 wishlist for FW is that Corsairs get fixed.

Which requires a reversal of "No model no rules".

I'm not holding my breath.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So does this mean no more complaining about fw models not having rules written by the main gw rules team? ...

I might have to retire my "It's great in 30k, but pretty crap in 40k" catchprase!

If it's done by GW main studio expect bad rules. They have vested interest in gamers not buying those models instead of more profitable plastic ones.

So what was forgeworld's excuse? Because newsflash, the FW indexes were the worst pile of garbage either studio has crapped out for a long time.

Most of the units are useless, some are outright non-functional and the ones that ARE good are almost universally hilariously OP (chaplain dreads, leviathan, super chicken back in the day.)

When you say stuff like this you should really acknowledge that the rules are gak NOW.

Except those units aren't overpowered. So you're wrong.

True. Leviathans and chaplain dreads aren't inherently op. It's the rules of certain marine chapters and duty eternal that make them op. That's what should be addressed. Not nerfing them for everyone. Hellforged leviathans definitely aren't op. They die plenty.

It should also be noted that the main studio has been responsible for FW's rules for years now, if not the entire edition (I dont recall if FW actually wrote the basic indexes or not, but GW absolutely did everything after that), and have took over some stuff even before 8E.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It should also be noted that the main studio has been responsible for FW's rules for years now, if not the entire edition (I dont recall if FW actually wrote the basic indexes or not, but GW absolutely did everything after that), and have took over some stuff even before 8E.

Yes but a lot of people can't get that through their heads. This puts their arguments to rest.

I don't think it matters too much who's responsible. Many of the FW rules are laughable. The same is true of many none FW models to be fair. Hopefully they use this as a platform to improve the balance of 8th edition before 9th rolls in the minute it becomes somewhat balanced again.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It should also be noted that the main studio has been responsible for FW's rules for years now, if not the entire edition (I dont recall if FW actually wrote the basic indexes or not, but GW absolutely did everything after that), and have took over some stuff even before 8E.

In short, nothing will change. Rules will still be horribly written, ambiguous, hilariously unbalanced.

 p5freak wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It should also be noted that the main studio has been responsible for FW's rules for years now, if not the entire edition (I dont recall if FW actually wrote the basic indexes or not, but GW absolutely did everything after that), and have took over some stuff even before 8E.

In short, nothing will change. Rules will still be horribly written, ambiguous, hilariously unbalanced.

And Dakka will never be pleased

So all the ia books have gone up on last chance to buy. So how long does this mean until the new books are released? Hope it's not to long and what we get isn't disappointing.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So all the ia books have gone up on last chance to buy. So how long does this mean until the new books are released? Hope it's not to long and what we get isn't disappointing.

Assume it will be disappointing. Then anything better than that will be a pleasant surprise!

I wouldn't be surprised if they release them one at a time every few months, so it'll really depend on which book you're waiting for.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It should also be noted that the main studio has been responsible for FW's rules for years now, if not the entire edition (I dont recall if FW actually wrote the basic indexes or not, but GW absolutely did everything after that), and have took over some stuff even before 8E.

Not that many years, and as far as I can tell the indexes were handled by FW themselves, with the cancelled Grey Knights/Sisters of Silence/Custodes book the last attempt at doing 40K before throwing their hands up and saying enough. I would assume the Custodes rules and the Moirax rules were handled by GW but have no idea on which side the Seraptic construct would fall.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they release them one at a time every few months, so it'll really depend on which book you're waiting for.

Like they did the marine supplements? That'd be infuriating, but typical. I don't understand why they couldn't have released new points in ca before any rules changes like they did for the armies who hadn't gotten their pa's yet.

Well I do. $$$

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So all the ia books have gone up on last chance to buy. So how long does this mean until the new books are released? Hope it's not to long and what we get isn't disappointing.

"Keep an eye out for the first in the new range of books from the Warhammer 40,000 Studio later in 2020."

First book before the end of the year.

Rest to follow - but maybe not in 2020.

The first one will definitely be Marines probably late summer, early fall kind of timeframe. I'd expect Guard / Navy / Titans as the second one, then Chaos and Xenos later on.

I expect no rules, not even Legends, for FW kits no longer in production. Rest in piece, Leman Russ Conqueror.

So back to the eternal waiting game. The bane of the 40k player's existence.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they release them one at a time every few months, so it'll really depend on which book you're waiting for.

Like they did the marine supplements? That'd be infuriating, but typical. I don't understand why they couldn't have released new points in ca before any rules changes like they did for the armies who hadn't gotten their pa's yet.

Well I do. $$$

Why would PA have anything to do with it? For the most part that hasn't changed the rules of units but just added a few things for factions as a whole. In fact, the new Banshees, Incubi and Drazhar had to wait for CA to get any points drops.

 Imateria wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they release them one at a time every few months, so it'll really depend on which book you're waiting for.

Like they did the marine supplements? That'd be infuriating, but typical. I don't understand why they couldn't have released new points in ca before any rules changes like they did for the armies who hadn't gotten their pa's yet.

Well I do. $$$

Why would PA have anything to do with it? For the most part that hasn't changed the rules of units but just added a few things for factions as a whole. In fact, the new Banshees, Incubi and Drazhar had to wait for CA to get any points drops.

Well yes, but their pa came out before ca. Other armies units got points changes in ca before their respective pa's were released. Don't see why they couldn't have included whatever points adjustments they're doing for fw units in ca instead of doing them in the upcoming books.

Things I expect...

1) Large number of older models removed, or put a "Legends" section...vague chance there is an actual Legends FW book, but I doubt it. No model no rules will likely be in full effect.
2) They'll be hardback for some reason and obnoxiously expensive as usual for GW.
3) They will still feature errors and will have a large errata/FAQ.
4) A very reasonable chance they simply reprint stuff and don't fix a number of units.

Things I'd like...

1) Go over all the units included and actually make them cohesive or relevant. I scratch built a Typhon because I like the look of the model and I've used it once in two years. It's a 750+ point paperweight in an ultra-violent, points-drop meta.
2) I'd love to see them actually include a small Chapter set of rules for stuff like Carcharadons/Minotaurs/Red Scorpions, etc. At the very least, release this stuff in a White Dwarf in combination with the timeline.
3) I'd love to see these books in a cheaper soft-back option...but the preview picture doesn't make that likely.

It does beg the question; what is the future of Forgeworld and 40K? Nothing new for 40K has come out in years. No books, no new models, etc. The only models available are 30K cross-over models. Is there any future to Forgeworld as a "premium" (laughing...) version of GW? Will there ever be actual campaign books from Forgeworld? Plastic technology has more or less finally surpassed resin with very few exceptions. GW prices have also skyrocketed to almost match Forgeworld. With GW taking over the rules, is Forgeworld more or less done with 40K?

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So back to the eternal waiting game. The bane of the 40k player's existence.

We wouldn't have to wait if GW would joint he 21st century and create digital rules releases.

 Elbows wrote:
Things I expect...

1) Large number of older models removed, or put a "Legends" section...vague chance there is an actual Legends FW book, but I doubt it. No model no rules will likely be in full effect.

Here we go again.

Tomorrow on Warhammer Rags:

GW planning to remove units from FW Indexes? Read our ambiguous article to clear nothing up!

Next week on News and Rumor: GW is going to squat FW units says rumor monger! And no Legends!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Things I expect...

1) Large number of older models removed, or put a "Legends" section...vague chance there is an actual Legends FW book, but I doubt it. No model no rules will likely be in full effect.

Here we go again.

Tomorrow on Warhammer Rags:

GW planning to remove units from FW Indexes? Read our ambiguous article to clear nothing up!

Next week on News and Rumor: GW is going to squat FW units says rumor monger! And no Legends!

I know a guy who knows a guy who knows an employee that said so.

I mean... yeah, theres a history of Dakka claiming the sky is falling every tiem an acorn drops.

BUT, it's not unreasonable to assume that out of production units will not be in the book. We dont know for sure, but given everything we've seen from GW recently it very much seems like they are pretty averse to publishing books with rules for models you cant buy.

Removed - Rule #1

 Elbows wrote:
Remember, people can't have an opinion because Daedelus said so. Better tow the party line or shut up.

LOL that's rich.

 Blndmage wrote:
I hope it's not all Imperial and Chaos.
I hope Xenos factions get love.

Forgeworld has 37 entries under a whole category just for "Contemptor Dreadnoughts".

They have more f***ing Contemptor Dreadnought products than they do entire lines for any xenos faction.

In fact, the only non-space marine faction with more listed products than they have under "Contemptor Dreadnoughts" is Imperial Guard, because they made a big pile of IG super heavies once upon a time that they haven't axed yet back when they made cool and different things instead of the same Space Marine thing 18 times with 3 pieces of bling molded onto it.


I have no confidence that xenos armies, or even IG, will get any good rules.

You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

It's more that each one is a full mould rather than a modification kit.
A full mould, even if the design work is based on the same core, still means they are investing into way more Marine models than Xenos models; esp when you consider that in general the mould production and casting is likely the greater cost of developing a new model over the cost of design work. Esp for resins where, whilst the mould is a lot cheaper, the casting is more labour intensive and thus a greater upkeep cost.

It's even worse when you consider that as bad as Xenos have it, AoS only has around 40 models left and lost well over 12 over the last three months.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but does anyone think that the reason fw has so many kits for marines might have something to do with one of their primary focuses for several years being a game based almost entirely on marine vs marine?

That or something involving sasquatch and Elvis.

I think everyone who is skeptical certainly has a right to be; especially folks craving Xenos content. I do think Gw is trying to address these concerns, but they aren't going fast enough on Xenos because they aren't allowed to slow down on the marine front.

But I'm going to present an alternate "might happen" scenario, just to try to bring a bit of hope.

Some FW models have become GW models in the past- I've never been a big investor in FW, so I might be mixed up, but I think I remember reading that at one point the Manticore and Deathstrike, as well as many of the fliers were exclusively FW products.

So what if GW redoing the FW Indexes leads to GW models for some or even all of the included units?

I mean, if GW really is going to stay away from the whole new edition reset button, they need new content, and bringing in the most popular FW products is less risky than something untested.

Last but not least, regarding FW's xenos deficit, I really think it's up to GW to lead that charge. If they release a massive wave of new material for a Xeno faction instead of a trickle, FW might see their way to creating some stuff for the range as well.

I'm kinda hoping that happens for sisters.

Last thing... Just started DE, and I really like the Tantalus. Feeling like I should pick one up and the rules for it just in case.

PenitentJake wrote:
I think everyone who is skeptical certainly has a right to be; especially folks craving Xenos content. I do think Gw is trying to address these concerns, but they aren't going fast enough on Xenos because they aren't allowed to slow down on the marine front.

But I'm going to present an alternate "might happen" scenario, just to try to bring a bit of hope.

Some FW models have become GW models in the past- I've never been a big investor in FW, so I might be mixed up, but I think I remember reading that at one point the Manticore and Deathstrike, as well as many of the fliers were exclusively FW products.

So what if GW redoing the FW Indexes leads to GW models for some or even all of the included units?

I mean, if GW really is going to stay away from the whole new edition reset button, they need new content, and bringing in the most popular FW products is less risky than something untested.

Last but not least, regarding FW's xenos deficit, I really think it's up to GW to lead that charge. If they release a massive wave of new material for a Xeno faction instead of a trickle, FW might see their way to creating some stuff for the range as well.

I'm kinda hoping that happens for sisters.

Last thing... Just started DE, and I really like the Tantalus. Feeling like I should pick one up and the rules for it just in case.

This would actually be pretty easy for gw to achieve with some kits. A dreadclaw is literally a plastic drop pod kit with some resin conversion parts. An Achilles? Converted landraider. The fellblade series of tanks are all built around a plastic baneblade inner hull.

As far as a new unit for the Sisters goes I still say a super heavy based on the baneblade packing an inferno cannon and lots of gothic imagery would be SICK.

Maybe they'll cut things that never got a miniature, like the tournament-fav Lias Issadon.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe they'll cut things that never got a miniature, like the tournament-fav Lias Issadon.

Likely not. I really wouldn't hope for that either. I got a guy with a Heavy Bolter and Chainsaw bayonet I use for him that I'd like to continue using.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Likely not.

What makes you say that? We're all thinking that the things they don't produce anymore are going to get cut, so why not things that they never produced?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Likely not.

What makes you say that? We're all thinking that the things they don't produce anymore are going to get cut, so why not things that they never produced?

Because it's Marines, simple as that.

Would have been cool if this happened before the Knight meta. So we could have appropriately costed Tiger Sharks doing their job for once. Oh well, FW is always going to be slow

if they cut all the OOP options for codex things like autarch variants and bone singer. I fully expect the FW index to be absolutely stripped of anything that's OOP.

The trouble is the existance of 30k with full support bleeding into 40k meaning the GW favourite factions will get a very unproportionate representation whilst anything cool that's non SM is getting the boot.

Not to be a prophet of doom or try to dump on peoples hopes, But I'll be very surprised if you see any OOP things making it into the new books. I think they wont even legends them because why bother.. that's corporate MO. They don't care.. They already have your money. (nothing against GW personally just the way of the world)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Remember, people can't have an opinion because Daedelus said so. Better tow the party line or shut up.

LOL that's rich.

But is it wrong? Sure doesn't seem like it.

 Elbows wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Remember, people can't have an opinion because Daedelus said so. Better tow the party line or shut up.

LOL that's rich.

But is it wrong? Sure doesn't seem like it.

I made a joke about how other people take information from forums and attribute it as a rumor. So, probably?

LoftyS wrote:
Would have been cool if this happened before the Knight meta. So we could have appropriately costed Tiger Sharks doing their job for once. Oh well, FW is always going to be slow

Not the fault of FW - the main GW studio took over the rules duties for FW units shortly after the start of 8th edition, but it's taken them until now to do anything meaningful with that responsibility, other than to hike the bejeezus out of some of the points costs int he 2018 CA update (IIRC).

Some of that delay is probably due to the speed at which they needed to deliver the Codex cycle, while some of it, going by a question I asked at last year's seminar at UKGE, was to do with them figuring out the best way for them to approach these rules.

 Dysartes wrote:

LoftyS wrote:
Would have been cool if this happened before the Knight meta. So we could have appropriately costed Tiger Sharks doing their job for once. Oh well, FW is always going to be slow

Not the fault of FW - the main GW studio took over the rules duties for FW units shortly after the start of 8th edition, but it's taken them until now to do anything meaningful with that responsibility, other than to hike the bejeezus out of some of the points costs int he 2018 CA update (IIRC).

Some of that delay is probably due to the speed at which they needed to deliver the Codex cycle, while some of it, going by a question I asked at last year's seminar at UKGE, was to do with them figuring out the best way for them to approach these rules.

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

As far as I'm aware, they didn't raise the costs again in CA2019 - and if they're going to be reviewing everything for new books, my guess is they decided to not touch them for now rather than try to rebalance them in CA2019, only to replace that work with new books later in the year.

 Dysartes wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

As far as I'm aware, they didn't raise the costs again in CA2019 - and if they're going to be reviewing everything for new books, my guess is they decided to not touch them for now rather than try to rebalance them in CA2019, only to replace that work with new books later in the year.

I meant they kept them at their current high costs in ca2019. But you are probably correct about their reasoning though I don't agree with it. Ca should address all units at the time of its writing.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

Two years in a row? Why not leave them at their original cost? Most were already over priced.

If they were already over priced, people wouldn't bring them anyway and would still buy a plastic castellan.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

By this logic we should have 36 variants of wraithlord, 36 variants of scorpion superheavy tank, 36 variants of the lynx, 36 variants of the hornet.

The base design of each of those is very easy to get variants out. The lynx had two variants that were just revenant Titan gun swaps. If that had been a marine unit it would have gotten is own icon pack and unique Hull design for each new weapon...

It's not just that marines get a billion variants, it's that even when it's just a different version of the same unit they will put more time and energy into creating it. Xenos stuff comes out clearly by the numbers are a box tick.

Imperial titans get a numbered certificate when you buy them. Eldar titans get nothing and the Phantom is very expensive.


It's just an example of how even when they do produced something it doesn't get the kind of attention marine and imperial stuff get.

Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

By this logic we should have 36 variants of wraithlord, 36 variants of scorpion superheavy tank, 36 variants of the lynx, 36 variants of the hornet.

The base design of each of those is very easy to get variants out. The lynx had two variants that were just revenant Titan gun swaps. If that had been a marine unit it would have gotten is own icon pack and unique Hull design for each new weapon...

It's not just that marines get a billion variants, it's that even when it's just a different version of the same unit they will put more time and energy into creating it. Xenos stuff comes out clearly by the numbers are a box tick.

Imperial titans get a numbered certificate when you buy them. Eldar titans get nothing and the Phantom is very expensive.


It's just an example of how even when they do produced something it doesn't get the kind of attention marine and imperial stuff get.

Seeing as Wraithlords weren't ever near as popular as Dreads nor do FW make Wraithlords in the first place, it makes sense there wouldn't be a bunch of variants?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Likely not.

What makes you say that? We're all thinking that the things they don't produce anymore are going to get cut, so why not things that they never produced?

Because it's Marines, simple as that.

I don't always agree with Slayer, but the man has a point.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

*shrug* It was a time when super heavies were scary and lots of people lacked a codex to make sense of them.

Easier for them to kick stuff off the table and try and deal with it later. GW has been trying to do too much and they tripped over themselves. Smaller units like contemptors are easy to point wrong and not get an over-sized impact like a super heavy - that is until the marine book went ape gak with dreadnoughts.

It wasn't the right thing for them to do, but they probably didn't have the time to even consider it. So this year instead of ~10 codexes we'll see PA and FW books and hopefully with more thought behind them, but likely still with errors and issues.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You act like it would be hard for them to create different designs for the Contemptor. With the base design it can be easy for them to modify and get different variants out.

By this logic we should have 36 variants of wraithlord, 36 variants of scorpion superheavy tank, 36 variants of the lynx, 36 variants of the hornet.

The base design of each of those is very easy to get variants out. The lynx had two variants that were just revenant Titan gun swaps. If that had been a marine unit it would have gotten is own icon pack and unique Hull design for each new weapon...

It's not just that marines get a billion variants, it's that even when it's just a different version of the same unit they will put more time and energy into creating it. Xenos stuff comes out clearly by the numbers are a box tick.

Imperial titans get a numbered certificate when you buy them. Eldar titans get nothing and the Phantom is very expensive.


It's just an example of how even when they do produced something it doesn't get the kind of attention marine and imperial stuff get.

Seeing as Wraithlords weren't ever near as popular as Dreads nor do FW make Wraithlords in the first place, it makes sense there wouldn't be a bunch of variants?

That wasn't your argument. Your argument was that they were easy to make variants of because of their design. And FW. Does. They make the wraithseer.

At some point FW never made contemptors either, but they started.

The real reason is your third point. Popularity and its self fulfilling prophecy. If you had a choice between a car that came with a+ after market service, free detailing and extras vs a car you couldn't even get spare parts for, which would you choose?


AOS tried it's hardest to add space marines and yet they haven't dominated the miniature releases. Because popularity is only one part of it. Support and the public presentation of how you treat your products is also a massive driver of preference.

No one likes to be ignored - even space marine faction players who have more choice than all xenos armies combined complain when they don't get stuff.

Xenos players shouldn't feel greatful that they get anything, marine players should feel grateful their fellows are willing to become second class.citizens in 40K so.thst marines aren't just fighting each other forevermore.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

*shrug* It was a time when super heavies were scary and lots of people lacked a codex to make sense of them.

Easier for them to kick stuff off the table and try and deal with it later. GW has been trying to do too much and they tripped over themselves. Smaller units like contemptors are easy to point wrong and not get an over-sized impact like a super heavy - that is until the marine book went ape gak with dreadnoughts.

It wasn't the right thing for them to do, but they probably didn't have the time to even consider it. So this year instead of ~10 codexes we'll see PA and FW books and hopefully with more thought behind them, but likely still with errors and issues.

I guess we'll never know gw's reasoning behind the nerf due to their lack of transparency on their rules decisions. I just know it felt pretty arbitrary and unfair. Especially when knights started showing up everywhere. Ca2019 didn't help either by giving points drops to almost every non-knight super heavy (including the fw astreus) except the hellforged/relic models.

I just hope they'll finally fix it in the new fw books. And that we don't have to wait forever to get them. Of course that probably depends on how fast they sell their remaining ia books.

I would like them to kill the indexes. Stop having 2 studios develop rules for 1 game. Every unit, fw and otherwise, should be in a single codex. Because FW basically shouldn't exist outside of GW.

Please, god, make corsairs a viable army again. No need to be broken, just playable.

Here's some wishlisting: dreadclaws get the space marines first turn ds rule.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because it's Marines, simple as that.

You mean like the time Marines got to keep their Chaplain/Captain/Apothecary/Techmarine on Bike? Biker Vets? Honour Guard? Oh no, those got cut. They're Legends now. And some of them even had minis.

FW things that never got minis I just cannot see surviving the transition. Being a Marine has nothing to do with it.

 Lance845 wrote:
I would like them to kill the indexes.

They are. That's the point of this.

 Lance845 wrote:
Stop having 2 studios develop rules for 1 game.

They have. Again, that's the point of this.

 Lance845 wrote:
Every unit, fw and otherwise, should be in a single codex. Because FW basically shouldn't exist outside of GW.

But GW doesn't do that because they don't want to advertise these kits you cannot buy in store.

... Can they just please make the Tyranid Heirodules not a worse knight? I mean yes new adaptations in PA helps but other armies get that bonus and more and don't pay CP or give up their warlord traits for it!

I'd love for Hierodules to be worth bringing. Make them actually dangerous, and not cost 400+ points.

 Lance845 wrote:
I would like them to kill the indexes. Stop having 2 studios develop rules for 1 game. Every unit, fw and otherwise, should be in a single codex. Because FW basically shouldn't exist outside of GW.

Good lord have you not read this thread or any FW thread for nearly 2 years?

Only one studio writes rules for 40k since 8th started and it ain't FW.

As for the other bollocks personally I would rather keep and expand FW and dispose of the main studio the home of AoS,8th,Knight codex and all the other stuff people have been belly aching about for the last decade or so.

I would not hold your breath on any xenos or 40k releases from FW as after the last couple of years of behind the scenes bollocks the studio has been pulling to feth FW over if I was the new manager I would focus on my own ranges and if GW want to make rules for it fair enough, if that is the case though then expect only marine stuff and given the killing of what fantasy stuff FW makes and xenos stuff slowly disappearing I think this is what is happening.

In light of comments about it not making a difference if money comes fromn FW or the main studio as it all goes to the company that is true but FW are a separate division from the main studio and both have targets to hit for stuff like the managements bonuses etc.
Now the story I heard goes a little like this one of the 2 studios released the biggest bomb of GW's history I mean at launch it sank like the titanic and even months later it still showed no signs of recovery, the management got there excuses in about KS, bad economic conditions and 2 player sets being currently out of fashion etc etc and then the smaller studio released a 2 player boxed game that sold more copies in its pre order and opening weekend than the other studios flop sold in 5 months. The main studios management saw the bonuses go bye bye and got made to look even more incompetent than they are, it also got the smaller studio a lot of goodwill and more support but also the undying enmity of the main studio.

Hellebore wrote:


AOS tried it's hardest to add space marines and yet they haven't dominated the miniature releases. Because popularity is only one part of it. Support and the public presentation of how you treat your products is also a massive driver of preference.

Honestly I think AoS was going to copy-cat the space marine style fully in terms of release support. You can even see it in how they built the Stormcast around Chambers and GW was, early on, releasing "more chambers of stormcast". However I think the massive backlash that AoS got at launch made them re-evaluate some elements of their strategy for the game. I think that instead GW has been very delibrate in stopping their own copy-cat behaviour with Stormcast - with a detriment that some models worked on for a "second chamber" I think got lumped into the core stormcast - leaving some units tripping over each other and a very big single range (which isn't totally bad of course).

Instead I think they've actually decided to take AoS the other way and push for a wider spread of armies. You can see this in the games overall balance; the publications from Black Library; and in the wealth of alternative armies and factions GW has added and is continuing to add. There's very clearly a push toward having a much wider variety of armies supported and whilst the game has its iconic Stormcast force; GW isn't thrusting it down the neck of gamers so much that the rest of the armies are left in the dust. The only area Stormcast actually have an edge over others is in volume of kits they've got, which likely was something GW couldn't stop from their early plans.




The "Marine problem" is an issue for GW. It creates problems in that whilst it generates fantastic sales on its own it also over-dominates its own game and has only grown worse (in my view) as the number of models and size of armies has grown over the years. Some 40K armies are doing ok, but there were long periods where many were left in the dust - Necrons and Dark Eldar; meanwhile today we've got armies like Eldar and Orks (esp Eldar) with a good chunk of finecast kits. Even Imperial forces suffered (Sisters of Battle).


FW tends to present an even more extreme situation, though I think its also a reflection of the staff they've got. I think they like making marines and tanks and that's where their skillset is. I think they've perhaps less staff with skill/desire to make organics, knights, xenos and such. Which might be why Tau got such a good representation from them because it was more of the same block mech tank type models that they were used to making.

Disagree, F.e. the R&H pieces were, if you managed to get a decent quality one, quite a bit more amazing then their variation x of predator or y of vindicator.

The core issue, however, especially in the case of R&H was, that you designed an ADD-ONN sprue, for 12£ on a squad that allready cost 30£, which in essence only generated on the field 30-40 pts at a time were a basic IG squd did cost 50 pts.
And you were not getting around R&H infantry due to the design of the armies rules, fitting hordes of adaptable infantry moresoe then vehicle based armies.


In short, FW did never produce A ruleset fitting an non Marine army that is percievable as a good pts value /£$ Euro spent.

Dudeface wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And some of it was aimed at keeping units that could challenge knights one on one out of the meta in order to sell knights and their codexes.

Why didn't they nerf everything else capable of taking on knights?

What purpose does it serve to nerf units that would benefit from that codex?

In what way does GW's bottom line benefit if you choose to purchase a $170 Castellan over a $300 Lancer?

GW certainly sold a lot more Castellans than any other sort of knight. Why did GW want to sell those and not other non-FW knights?

Fine. How would you explain gw's decision to nerf so many of the fw super heavys in ca2018? We're things like fellblades really affecting the meta in a way that would explain that? Especially considering the timing? Perhaps in order to recoup the cost of new plastic moulds for the new models? The moulds for the units affected by ca were probably already paid for.

Being a cynic, they probably didnt have time to go over all the fw units as well as the codex units, hence went heavy handed rather than invest the effort.

It has nothing to do with knights, because they were negligent with the entire fw catalogue in CA.

I've actually heard this from my Rep. Beligh's death really hit hard and messed the company up for a long time. Rules took a back seat as everything went into stabilizing Heresy.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I would like them to kill the indexes. Stop having 2 studios develop rules for 1 game. Every unit, fw and otherwise, should be in a single codex. Because FW basically shouldn't exist outside of GW.

Good lord have you not read this thread or any FW thread for nearly 2 years?

Only one studio writes rules for 40k since 8th started and it ain't FW.

Yes I have. By kill the indexes I mean all the FW specific books. They are not needed. They should not be balanced separately or treated as their own thing. Every FW option should be in the one book with the normal GW gak. Making a new set of FW "books" (read indexes) is a fething waste of everyones time and money. I am aware that since FWs head died GW has been writing the rules in a half assed way.

As for the other bollocks personally I would rather keep and expand FW and dispose of the main studio the home of AoS,8th,Knight codex and all the other stuff people have been belly aching about for the last decade or so.

I would not hold your breath on any xenos or 40k releases from FW as after the last couple of years of behind the scenes bollocks the studio has been pulling to feth FW over if I was the new manager I would focus on my own ranges and if GW want to make rules for it fair enough, if that is the case though then expect only marine stuff and given the killing of what fantasy stuff FW makes and xenos stuff slowly disappearing I think this is what is happening.

In light of comments about it not making a difference if money comes fromn FW or the main studio as it all goes to the company that is true but FW are a separate division from the main studio and both have targets to hit for stuff like the managements bonuses etc.
Now the story I heard goes a little like this one of the 2 studios released the biggest bomb of GW's history I mean at launch it sank like the titanic and even months later it still showed no signs of recovery, the management got there excuses in about KS, bad economic conditions and 2 player sets being currently out of fashion etc etc and then the smaller studio released a 2 player boxed game that sold more copies in its pre order and opening weekend than the other studios flop sold in 5 months. The main studios management saw the bonuses go bye bye and got made to look even more incompetent than they are, it also got the smaller studio a lot of goodwill and more support but also the undying enmity of the main studio.

If the FW team got to have more say in 40k by not being their own division things would probably be better. They are not. And keeping them separate doesn't help.

Another vote for hoping they fix the ork entries to be less than terrible. Either by updating the rules (what they should do, but probably won't) or by reducing points costs significantly (what they shouldn't do, but probably will).

Given how things have gone recently, they will probably not update any ork stuff at all except to take away the warboss on warbike.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd love for Hierodules to be worth bringing. Make them actually dangerous, and not cost 400+ points.

This. And make the Dima actually scary for once, give us more reason to take anything from FW in a matched play game.... Maybe print the correct stats and abilites for the Malanthrops while their at it.

I'll never forget the big FAQ that basically rewrote her datasheet.