Warriors of Titan,
This will be the new thread for discussing Grey Knights Tactica in light of the significant changes GK received in Psychic Awakening: Ritual of the Damned. Please feel free to re-post anything from the old thread that is relevant (math-hammer, battle reports, etc).
Summary of updates:
- Grey Knights have their own version of Doctrines, the "Tides of the Warp". They buff GK smites, shooting, defense, and melee. One active per turn, can change with WC5 power in psychic phase
- New psychic discipline, the "Dominus Discipline"
-New Stratagems, some copy-paste from Codex: Space Marines and some unique to Grey Knights
-New Litanies for Chaplains
-Codified "Bolter Discipline" and "Shock Assault" for Grey Knights units.
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I really did wish for new Warlord Traits, but getting Raven Guard defensive bonuses kinda makes up for it. However I wish we were better as a mixed army. As is, you get nothing from adding Grey Knights to your army, and they work better stand alone.
First To The Fray is still the best Warlord Trait it looks like.
Agree, though Lore Master has some niche play so you can take both Sanctic and Dominus powers (barring a FAQ). I’ve always been looking for a way to make Hammer of righteousness work (cause +2 to wound combined with hammer hand) but without reliable charges it’s not great (same with +1 damage trait).
I foresee 30 Interceptors being standard very soon.
With the Tides and COmbat squads you can jump in an oponents face and do a potential 12 mortals (24 to demons) turn 1 in addition to whatever bolters do.
Then charge, its going to be nasty, to armies without enough screening.
For competitive mono GK-builds, I see a mass reduction in GMNDK units per army lists. One at most, but most likely none if the player is going to build around the Warp Tide abilities to the maximum.
demontalons wrote: I foresee 30 Interceptors being standard very soon.
With the Tides and COmbat squads you can jump in an oponents face and do a potential 12 mortals (24 to demons) turn 1 in addition to whatever bolters do.
Then charge, its going to be nasty, to armies without enough screening.
I would expect to see at least one unit in almost every list, combat squads or not, for just over 100 points you can put down a solid amount of fire anywhere on the map. They arethe forward objective humpers.
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Waking Dreamer wrote: For competitive mono GK-builds, I see a mass reduction in GMNDK units per army lists. One at most, but most likely none if the player is going to build around the Warp Tide abilities to the maximum.
I still plan on fielding 1, although hes 1 out of 5 HQs. Goonhammer has a good article up right now discussing GMDKs melee weapons, i'm going to give the great hammer another shot.
We have a ton of amazing support characters now, damn near every one of them has 2+ WS and can wield a hammer for 13 points, and with super smites i think i'd be better off with a second Brother Captain.
Waking Dreamer wrote: For competitive mono GK-builds, I see a mass reduction in GMNDK units per army lists. One at most, but most likely none if the player is going to build around the Warp Tide abilities to the maximum.
GMNDK are probably only the way to go for Soup Detachments that don't get the tides.
demontalons wrote: I foresee 30 Interceptors being standard very soon. With the Tides and COmbat squads you can jump in an oponents face and do a potential 12 mortals (24 to demons) turn 1 in addition to whatever bolters do.
Then charge, its going to be nasty, to armies without enough screening.
Im already building a list with 2 batallions and 20 Interceptors and a Paladin Squad simply with the idea that
- strike squad can camp objectives and collect points
- paladin bomb with full buffs and chaplain / voldus / draigo auras and buffs to wreak havoc and survive long enough
- 12 CP out of 2 Batallions to support all the Stratagems and Buffs the Paladins get on top of 1 CP regen from Characters, enough for 2-3 Rounds of Paladin Havoc
- 2 Interceptor squads to shunt towards the Paladin and the character auras for a massive alpha strike and after that you have a very mobile army which can use 12 inch movement through everything
- 1 Apothecary for a 2 CP character snipe inner fire Talibnight. If the situation of bad opponment shielding happens, he can possibly snipe a character, if not then you can use him to stay with the Bomb and heal / revive Paladins
- Draigo, Voldus, Librarian, Chaplain as Characters for a lot of Casts and Buffs and Auras (CP regen, Shoot range, 2x Tide Switch (too important to have just 1), Shoot then Move Edict, 2x Inner Fire (in case of Melee or Suicide Bomb), Resilence) on top of Sanctuary, Vortex of Doom Astral Aim and Gate from normal Troops / Interceptors on top of Draigo reroll Aura
There is going to be a lot of psi powers and buffing going around and we might need a flowchart to keep track of everything
Only Downside is: No GKNDK (too expensive, doesnt benefit much from all the edicts / auras / buffs), no Dreadnought (not enough firepower, no mobility) and you need to rely on paladins and weight of fire + Stratagems to bring down armored units. But you can possibly use Draigo with Inner Fire and Stratagem to melee down a Tank / Dreadnought / Knight plus you have a lot of Smites going around
Only question i have is wheter we can switch tides twice a round ... like start with Shadow then switch to escalation and smite, then switch to convergence and shoot.
I've gotten one game in so far with GK's new goodies. I used a double Battalion, with a list focused on Smite spam and Psilencers. I had: Draigo, Voldus, 2 Brother Captains with Psilencers, a Librarian, 6 Strike Squads, 10 man Paladins with 4 Psilencers, 2 Purgation squads with Psilencers. I had intended to switch between Tide of Escalation and Tide of Convergence, but ended up bouncing between Shadows and Escalation all game. I was playing against Necrons, so the Shadows helping to negate Tesla was huge. The new powers and Stratagems were very synergistic. I took the Artisan Nullifier Matrix, and it saved me from perils almost every turn, as I used a moving castle of characters and Paladins. Armored Resilience on Paladins with Tide of Shadows makes them incredibly resilient. I would use the Empyric Surge stratagem almost every turn as well, to ensure my powers went off, which they did incredibly reliably. I ensured my Brother Captains were spread across my forces to be able to Smite at 24" with everyone that I wanted to, and it worked very well.
Only question i have is wheter we can switch tides twice a round ... like start with Shadow then switch to escalation and smite, then switch to convergence and shoot.
To switch Tides you need to cast a psychic power. Matched play rules say you can only cast the same psychic power once per psychic phase.
Only question i have is wheter we can switch tides twice a round ... like start with Shadow then switch to escalation and smite, then switch to convergence and shoot.
To switch Tides you need to cast a psychic power. Matched play rules say you can only cast the same psychic power once per psychic phase.
So to build off this, you can only switch once a turn.
Theory crafting, my thing is, if I start first, I'm going with the Smite bonus and then switching to Defense. Going second, I'll start with Defense and then switch to Smite or even the rerolling 1s to wound. Mostly if they're up in my face.
The bonus to Psi weapons sucks. It benefits so little outside you wanting to land max squads of Storm Bolters for one time. Just absolutely not worth it.
Aeri wrote: I liked the combination of some Grey Knights and a Knight. Doesn't seem to be viable at all anymore, as I lose the best rules. :(
Indeed, the new rules would be gone.
It also appears that GMNDK's are no longer a mandatory choice for a GK army, dito for Dreads.
So Techmarines are no longer viable as well despite the new relic offering 2D3 wounds back.
Idk about tech marines being not viable, they are still the cheapest hq in the book as well as being a psycic and a chr so they can use the new spells.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Incinerators are still poop, right? Too expensive and no good way outside of a Dynamic Insertion Paladin squad to get a bunch in range?
Indeed, the fall down behind with no real support by the new supplement.
Idk about tech marines being not viable, they are still the cheapest hq in the book as well as being a psycic and a chr so they can use the new spells
How about the new Inquisition.
Will there eventually be a possibility to use them as well?
Okay, I have a question. Not wanting to be especially competitive, but also not wanting to lose every game...
I have about 20 or so of the old metal Grey Knight Terminator models, and can make some Grey Knight Librarians and Chaplains in Terminator armour from bits of the same era. Could an army of Grey Knight Terminators (and/or Paladins) with Character support be viable for casual play?
Only question i have is wheter we can switch tides twice a round ... like start with Shadow then switch to escalation and smite, then switch to convergence and shoot.
To switch Tides you need to cast a psychic power. Matched play rules say you can only cast the same psychic power once per psychic phase.
So to build off this, you can only switch once a turn.
Theory crafting, my thing is, if I start first, I'm going with the Smite bonus and then switching to Defense. Going second, I'll start with Defense and then switch to Smite or even the rerolling 1s to wound. Mostly if they're up in my face.
The bonus to Psi weapons sucks. It benefits so little outside you wanting to land max squads of Storm Bolters for one time. Just absolutely not worth it.
Idk. There are still lot of psyker armys out there like tyranids who can deny and inquisitors who can lower your psi rolls or assassins and better psykers like thousand sons. An army with guns can still cast psi but an psi army wihout guns would have a bigger Problem when countered
Aeri wrote: I liked the combination of some Grey Knights and a Knight. Doesn't seem to be viable at all anymore, as I lose the best rules. :(
Indeed, the new rules would be gone.
It also appears that GMNDK's are no longer a mandatory choice for a GK army, dito for Dreads.
So Techmarines are no longer viable as well despite the new relic offering 2D3 wounds back.
Woah, let's not get carried away here. There is a BIG difference between not being mandatory and not being "viable".
GMNDKs and Ven.dreads are definitely viable...they have specific roles no other GK units do better - they're just not optimal with the Warp Tides as other units. Your definitely not going to auto-lose by bringing them along.
The idea that the psy weapon tide is "trash" is just hilariously wrong. One 10-man squad with Storm Bolters popping Psybolt Ammunition against a T4 3+ target gets more than 8 extra damage through. That's eight units' worth of extra smites against perhaps the most relevant statline in the meta without any supporting characters and not counting any other psy weapons in your army that would benefit. It also doesn't require casting eight smites and can be targeted instead of just hitting the closest model. Not to mention you can cast your smites first and cast your tide-swapping power before the shooting phase.
Fifty wrote: Okay, I have a question. Not wanting to be especially competitive, but also not wanting to lose every game...
I have about 20 or so of the old metal Grey Knight Terminator models, and can make some Grey Knight Librarians and Chaplains in Terminator armour from bits of the same era. Could an army of Grey Knight Terminators (and/or Paladins) with Character support be viable for casual play?
As someone who's been playing against the Grey Knights new rules regularly, I'd still argue for keeping GMDK and out of LoS Nauts in lists. I typically bring two repulsor executioners with some sort of CM rerolls. They scare me still more then the janky combos the infantry have.
Aeri wrote: I liked the combination of some Grey Knights and a Knight. Doesn't seem to be viable at all anymore, as I lose the best rules. :(
Indeed, the new rules would be gone.
It also appears that GMNDK's are no longer a mandatory choice for a GK army, dito for Dreads.
So Techmarines are no longer viable as well despite the new relic offering 2D3 wounds back.
Dreads carry all the actual anti-tank weapons. If you're not using Fliers to do the same thing, these are obviously the next choice. Plus doesn't one of the new powers let you fall back and shoot? That'd be good for a camping Techmarine with them.
Can you use Psybolt Ammunition on a unit that's shooting in the psychic phase through Edict Imperator? Because if you can you can effectively get both the smite and a psy-ammo-boosted unit shot every turn.
When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A:
With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are not considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.
Our Stratagems say "when the unit shoots" sooooo, its ok because its not " must be used in a specific phase"
It doesn’t say anything about the shooting phase though, it’s just ‘before a unit shoots’. Being an old codex with old wording has its perks sometimes.
So with proper usage, you can go smite, change to psybolts and shoot, and then next turn fire a psybolt unit with the psychic power before shifting to smite, and then smiting before changing to psybolts the turn after that, effectively getting most of the benefits of both each turn?
Probably too expensive to repeatedly switch between, but I can certainly see going Smite to Double Psybolt on your first big turn. Likely turn 3, assuming turn one is spent in the shadows.
Dendarien wrote: What would people recommend building towards for a 1k list? I'm looking to start a lower model count army.
If you're looking for low model count but still competitive i'd go with a single battalion with Paladins, @ 2k just add another battalion and support characters.
Greyknight and other contributors, please show your work, it's not that i don't trust you i'd just really like to avoid threads like this where people are claiming Stormbolters are better than Psilencers because "maths".
I also don't want to hear anything about climate change or the world being round just because of "science".
May the lord guide us finding the right loadouts!
Dendarien wrote: What would people recommend building towards for a 1k list? I'm looking to start a lower model count army.
I ran GMNDK[Sword, Psycannon, Incinerator], Grandmaster[Hammer], Strikes[Halberd]x3, Paladin Ancient, Paladins[Halberd], & a Venerable Dreadnought[Twinlas, Missiles] for a small game recently. I think it did very well. If I'm called upon for another small game, I might try Interceptors or Purgation instead of the Paladin Ancient.
I haven't picked up the new book yet, so I don't have anything else productive to add. Pulling the stunt with the smites then Edict Imperator sounds fun, but also really CP hungry given the general shortage of CP. Maybe do it with Purgation squads already in position for some pretty damaging effect.
Aeri wrote: I also don't want to hear anything about climate change or the world being round just because of "science".
May the lord guide us finding the right loadouts!
I put "maths" in quotations because even a college dropout like myself could see he missed the mark.
If that thread is "science" it's the anti vax version of GK theorycrafting, and people are quoting it like it's gospel because the guy put numbers in his post, or making smart ass remarks defending the author without bothering to read the thread.
(here's a clue: Stormbolters aren't better than Psilcners on a 10 man Paladin unit).
And if you want to refute his claim, why dont you show your math to prove it? Right now the whole thing is a he said she said claim, just that one side has shown the numbers and the other hasnt to disprove it
FFridge wrote: And if you want to refute his claim, why dont you show your math to prove it? Right now the whole thing is a he said she said claim, just that one side has shown the numbers and the other hasnt to disprove it
Hence my request to the better Grey Knight players here, i'm not a statistician but i know how to use mathhammer and his post doesn't seem right, and it sure as hell shouldn't be used as a justification for fielding naked Paladins.
a 10 Paladin squad, on the move, in Tide of Convergence and using either Onslaught or Ammo targeting a unit of Primaris Marines:
Psilcner + Tide of Convergence + movement + Onslaught
12 damage + 7 from the other bolter models
19 damage total
^ The results of each of those load-outs in terms what will put out the most damage is dependent on what type of unit that Paladinstar is actually shooting at.
No way are 10 Storm bolters going to be dishing out more hurt on a leviathan dread, a Riptide castle, or triple Executioners...than either the psilencers OR psycannons load out.
Spending an extra 8-12 points on your 10-man Paladin unit to carry your GK special psi weaponry - can be more than worth it, depending on what enemy units you plan to be facing down with what's supposed to be your ace Paladin-star.
Abbreviations:
PA: Psybolt Ammo
PO: Psychic Onslaught
TOC: Tide of Convergence
Averaged the psilencers' damage of D3 to 2, and did not take into account overkill. Although for single wound models just look at the Unsaved Wounds column.
And of course Psilencers and Psycannons get a penalty when moving, which stormbolters don't.
Conclusion when equipping a 10 man squad:
- Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.
- Against VEQ (T7 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are only good during Tide of Convergence, otherwise 6 SB + 4 Psilencers get better results.
- Against KEQ (T8 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are better than 6 SB + 4 Psilencers if you have both Psychic Onslaught and Tide of Convergence.
Does that sound about right?
Source Excel in attachments if you want to check the formulas or play with different numbers.
I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.
Adeptus Custodes and Death Guard have been trying to make death stars work (with better tools) all edition and with one outlier it is not exactly rocking the meta. Chaos is currently tryharding with their 'Possessed Bomb' as well.
Abbreviations:
PA: Psybolt Ammo
PO: Psychic Onslaught
TOC: Tide of Convergence
Averaged the psilencers' damage of D3 to 2, and did not take into account overkill. Although for single wound models just look at the Unsaved Wounds column.
And of course Psilencers and Psycannons get a penalty when moving, which stormbolters don't.
Conclusion when equipping a 10 man squad:
- Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.
- Against VEQ (T7 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are only good during Tide of Convergence, otherwise 6 SB + 4 Psilencers get better results.
- Against KEQ (T8 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are better than 6 SB + 4 Psilencers if you have both Psychic Onslaught and Tide of Convergence.
Does that sound about right?
Source Excel in attachments if you want to check the formulas or play with different numbers.
Thanks for sharing! Do you have the ability to run those numbers that take into account moving with the Heavy weapons? I'm curious if the weight of fire from the Psilencer shifts the numbers further.
I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.
In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.
I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.
In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.
Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.
-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins
I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.
In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.
Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.
-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins
Redoubtable Defense doesn't work for Paladins, I believe. It specifically states it to be used for Grey Knight Terminators, not things with the Terminator Keyword. I would love to use that on a Pally Bomb though.
Lets also just consider for a minute that a 10 man strike squad or purgation squad or even purifiers can do the exact same damage as those paladins for about 1/3 the cost - slightly worse melee.
Paladins IMO are garbage in the new rule set. They are still t4 and mass AP-2/3 is all over the place. I doubt they will survive one turn if put on the table. So the 3 10 man units (or 6 5 mans) of strikes is going to be better almost always because it also generates 5/10 CP.
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Dendarien wrote: What would people recommend building towards for a 1k list? I'm looking to start a lower model count army.
I'd probably go for something like a batallion with Voldus a bro champ and 3 strikes and some venerable dreads.
I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.
In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.
Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.
-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins
Redoubtable Defense doesn't work for Paladins, I believe. It specifically states it to be used for Grey Knight Terminators, not things with the Terminator Keyword. I would love to use that on a Pally Bomb though.
It states GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR unit, so it's applicable for Paladins too.
Homeskillet wrote: Thanks for sharing! Do you have the ability to run those numbers that take into account moving with the Heavy weapons? I'm curious if the weight of fire from the Psilencer shifts the numbers further.
Yeah, that's simply changing the BS to 4 for the heavy weapons in the Excel:
Spoiler:
So when on the move, that actually makes stormbolters with pa & toc the highest damage dealers against all 3 targets. Of course that damage drops a lot when you run out of CP.
And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq
That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth
Well that is before the unit takes casualties.
Unless you expect your 30W paladin unit to get completely wiped in one turn, in subsequent shootings a reduced unit of say 5 paladins consisting of:
- 5 Stormbolters would seem to preform increasingly worse than:
- 1 Stormbolter + 4 psycannons vs VEQ / KEQ.
So you have to consider that extra 20 points preforming better over 2-3 turns.
A Paladin star should as every other star unit survive one round of shooting to rinse and repeat.
This is highly questionable as the enemy will pour every shot into this unit.
However, this should leave the other units unharmed to go for the opponent's throat.
I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.
In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.
Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.
-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins
Redoubtable Defense doesn't work for Paladins, I believe. It specifically states it to be used for Grey Knight Terminators, not things with the Terminator Keyword. I would love to use that on a Pally Bomb though.
It states GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR unit, so it's applicable for Paladins too.
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.
Redemption wrote: - Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.
What makes them more reliable? They are dealing the same damage to 1 or 2 wound models, are they not? What am i missing?
(asking honestly/earnestly)
Homeskillet wrote:
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.
I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.
Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".
MiguelFelstone wrote:
Redemption wrote: - Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.
What makes them more reliable?
They are dealing the same damage to 1 or 2 wound models, and looking at your chart Psilncers and bolters still deal more damage than just bolters alone to even T3 targets.
17.78 for the Stormbolters, 18.67 for the combined weapons, and it gets worse from there.
Because of the D3 damage of psilencers. When shooting at a 2 wound model like a Primaris marine, the average of D3 damage is indeed 2, but 3 damage is overkill and 1 damage doesn't kill the target.
And when ToC is active, psilencers do D3+1, so any roll of 2 or 3 is overkill, which will lower the actual amount of kills. Then just compare the amount of unsaved wounds to get the number of kills.
Homeskillet wrote: I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.
I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.
Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".
This..
The codex specifically states "GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR UNIT" it doesnt talk about "squad"
both the terminators and the paladins have the "Grey Knights Terminator" Unit keyword. so it works on both
Homeskillet wrote:
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.
I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.
Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".
For an even better example, the new 4++ Stratagem for Purifiers calls out <GREY KNIGHTS PURIFIER SQUAD>, which means Crowe is not a valid target despite having the <PURIFIER> keyword.
And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq
That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth
Well that is before the unit takes casualties.
Unless you expect your 30W paladin unit to get completely wiped in one turn, in subsequent shootings a reduced unit of say 5 paladins consisting of:
- 5 Stormbolters would seem to preform increasingly worse than:
- 1 Stormbolter + 4 psycannons vs VEQ / KEQ.
So you have to consider that extra 20 points preforming better over 2-3 turns.
I think thats all down to how you want to play and what tactics you are trying to use
if im gonna use a massive alpha strike of 120 stormbolter fire + 8 smites + inner fire + a potential vortex of doom then i would expect the enemy to be hobbled enough that it will be enough to win
theres still the potential of draigo soloing a knight alone with inner fire + hammerhand + melee combat and our army really isnt durable enough to last that long and wittle down the enemy
in times with lots of indirect fire (thunderfire cannons, curse you) you are at a huge disadvantage with 1 health models and overpriced 2 health terminators if you want a long drawn out fire duel
Homeskillet wrote:They are dealing the same damage to 1 or 2 wound models, and looking at your chart Psilncers and bolters still deal more damage than just bolters alone to even T3 targets.
17.78 for the Stormbolters, 18.67 for the combined weapons, and it gets worse from there.
Because of the D3 damage of psilencers. When shooting at a 2 wound model like a Primaris marine, the average of D3 damage is indeed 2, but 3 damage is overkill and 1 damage doesn't kill the target.
And when ToC is active, psilencers do D3+1, so any roll of 2 or 3 is overkill, which will lower the actual amount of kills. Then just compare the amount of unsaved wounds to get the number of kills.
I get that, but during Tide of Convergence your bolters are still doing the same damage to Primaris Marines, 2 damage, so what makes them more reliable? @ 6 shots does moving really negate 1/3rd of your shots?
Overkill or not your still killing the same number of marines are you not?
And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq
That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth
Well that is before the unit takes casualties.
Unless you expect your 30W paladin unit to get completely wiped in one turn, in subsequent shootings a reduced unit of say 5 paladins consisting of:
- 5 Stormbolters would seem to preform increasingly worse than:
- 1 Stormbolter + 4 psycannons vs VEQ / KEQ.
So you have to consider that extra 20 points preforming better over 2-3 turns.
I think thats all down to how you want to play and what tactics you are trying to use
if im gonna use a massive alpha strike of 120 stormbolter fire + 8 smites + inner fire + a potential vortex of doom then i would expect the enemy to be hobbled enough that it will be enough to win
theres still the potential of draigo soloing a knight alone with inner fire + hammerhand + melee combat and our army really isnt durable enough to last that long and wittle down the enemy
in times with lots of indirect fire (thunderfire cannons, curse you) you are at a huge disadvantage with 1 health models and overpriced 2 health terminators if you want a long drawn out fire duel
A 3" deep strike of a 10 man strike squad with super storm bolters will kill 2 thunderfire cannons. Both smite and or ignore cover and LOS will work to get the job done.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just built a list that has all the elements I want.
3x batallions
6hqs
2x brother caps with psycannons
1x Libby
1x Chaplain
Draigo
Voldus
1x 10 man strike
8x 5 man strikes with psycannons
1x 10 man interceptor
1x Ven dred with twinlas and missle.
This gives you turn 1 10 super SB attack and turn 2 as well with a 10 man strike. You got the chappy for -1 AP. Draigo handing out the rerolls to you strikes with psycannons and duouble brother captains putting down some additional psycannon fire and making sure as many units are pumping out 24" smite as possible.
Ven dread sits in the back killing TFC and stuff you don't want to be hiding.
This isn't a personal attack, i just want to know why you prefer cannons to psilncers? On paper they deal more damage/wounds to every target including knights (they are also cheaper)
MiguelFelstone wrote:I get that, but during Tide of Convergence your bolters are still doing the same damage to Primaris Marines, 2 damage, so what makes them more reliable? @ 6 shots does moving really negate 1/3rd of your shots?
Overkill or not your still killing the same number of marines are you not?
Yeah, but it inflates the average damage dealt in the chart. So when shooting at T4 W2 3+ models, 10 SB with ToC and PA kill 8.89 models on average, while 6 SB + 4 psilencers with ToC and PO kill 8. But if the unit has moved that drops to 6.67 kills.
Of course, as has been said, if half the unit is killed, 1 sb + 4 psilencers definitely do more damage than 5 stormbolters, and are less reliant on CP. There's a defintely case for always taking 4 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad for that reason alone, even if 10 SB do more damage in some cases.
MiguelFelstone wrote:This isn't a personal attack, i just want to know why you prefer cannons to psilncers? On paper they deal more damage/wounds to every target including knights (they are also cheaper)
No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.
Or when buffed that much that the extra armour penetration of the psycannon does not matter, because of invulnerable saves. E.g., when buffed by Psychic Onslaught, Tide of Convergence and Invocation of Focus, and shooting at a Imperial Knight with 3+ 5++, a psilencer does more damage than a psycannon because the extra armour penetration from Invocation of Focus doesn't help the psycannon any.
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
Xeno, that list looks really interesting. Please play it and let me know how it goes.
I was enamored by the paladin bomb but there are so many moving parts I'm not confident in my ability to make it all work.
Not sold on the psycannons vs psilencers. Will have to see it in a test.
Scared to only put 60 marine wounds on the table (well, less than that will me "on" the table) with crazy IF artillery companies out there which can almost pick it up in 2 turns if they go first.
Those 18 cp sure seem sweet though. If I could just find a way to squeeze a second 10 man strike/incerceptor in there I would feel better about board control/bodies on table but I think I'd lose too much downgrading voldus and draigo...
its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.
In tide of convergence
t7 3+ save target a psycannon does 1.77 damage (better than a ap-4 lascannon on average which does 1.5 damage on average)
a psilencer does 1.33 on average even with a max damage roll it does 1.77 which matches the psycannons average roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: Xeno, that list looks really interesting. Please play it and let me know how it goes.
I was enamored by the paladin bomb but there are so many moving parts I'm not confident in my ability to make it all work.
Not sold on the psycannons vs psilencers. Will have to see it in a test.
Scared to only put 60 marine wounds on the table (well, less than that will me "on" the table) with crazy IF artillery companies out there which can almost pick it up in 2 turns if they go first.
Those 18 cp sure seem sweet though. If I could just find a way to squeeze a second 10 man strike/incerceptor in there I would feel better about board control/bodies on table but I think I'd lose too much downgrading voldus and draigo...
Draigo IMO is not a requirement. Maybe even a liability at the cost of more bodies. Replacing him with another bro captain with a psycannon nearly gets you to another 10 man strike but there isn't a lot of room to wiggle in after that. Downgrading 1 HQ to a brotherhood champ or tech marine...that is how youd have to do it. Those guys are not great though.
If are just dumb - ignore cover on every attack in your army is too powerful ESP with doctrines giving you an additional ap-1 too...That was pretty poorly thought out by GW. GW didn't think it was good enough so they also gave them exploding 6's too. HAHA. Oh well. IF are just a really bad matchup for GK. You will do fine though if you actually get cover saves.
Xenomancers wrote: its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.
You just said lets compare them one : one with no buffs and then the very next sentence you state you'll be in Tide of Convergence the entire game.
Well there is your answer. You aren't using tide of convergence. Tide on convergence basically free. If you plan to be in it often (IE every turn as I explained) - you bring psycannons.
Xenomancers wrote: its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.
You just said lets compare them one : one with no buffs and then the very next sentence you state you'll be in Tide of Convergence the entire game.
Well there is your answer. You aren't using tide of convergence. Tide on convergence basically free. If you plan to be in it often (IE every turn as I explained) - you bring psycannons.
It's not free, your giving up super smites and considering how many units your fielding that seems like a mistake to gain a slight advantage agasint T7 targets.
Xenomancers wrote: its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.
You just said lets compare them one : one with no buffs and then the very next sentence you state you'll be in Tide of Convergence the entire game.
Well there is your answer. You aren't using tide of convergence. Tide on convergence basically free. If you plan to be in it often (IE every turn as I explained) - you bring psycannons.
It's not free, your giving up super smites and considering how many units your fielding that seems like a mistake to gain a slight advantage agasint T7 targets.
Ahh - are you aware you can take advantage of 2 tides in 1 turn? You can start in the psychic tide and then change to tide of convergence at the end of the psychic phase and just blow your opponent off the table. That is my plan anyways. We will see. This is all theory craft about how effective this will actually be. Even later in the game I think ill be buffing a 5 man strike squad to have damage str 5 dmg 2 SB - esp since I am bringing a chaplain with the -1 AP ability.
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".
You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".
You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)
I haven't seen a competitive SM list with a LR is quite a while, and i can tell you as a Custodies player the Telemon is not a good example of anti-tank, Riptides and Leviathans on the other hand are great examples.
This is giving me a lot more to think about, thank you.
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".
You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)
Which in those cases you're better off with Super Smite because Iron Hands can block shooting with Intercessors and the bodyguard Strat, and can minimize damage too (which then the Psilencer is gold again).
I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.
The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.
The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.
My matlab license has expired, otherwise I'd take a look at the math myself. That said, the only way I can see that might come to that conclusion would be considering mobile psilencers/psycannons versus storm bolters, which is I guess a fair consideration.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
Well under Psibolt and the Tide, they're S6 AP-2 Rapid Fire 2 D2
For the points it isn't hard to see that there would be situations you want that, especially since Psycannons miss half their shots on the move. At least Psilencers have more weight of fire making them significantly more flexible.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.
The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.
I believe the sentiment may come from the idea that ToC + PsyAmmo strat gives Storm bolters a proportionally higher boost compared to it's base profile - not hard considering as stated, it starts off with the weakest profile at S4 AP0 D1. Also each Storm bolter is only 2 points compared to 4 point psilencer and 7 point psycannon. So some theorycrafters may intrinsically be comparing the value of one psilencer or psycannon to 2 storm bolters and 3+ storm bolters respectively, and deciding the use of the 2CP + ToC on a more costly GK special weapon (with the -1 to hit on the move), isnt worth the consideration in the list-building stage.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.
The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.
So some theorycrafters may intrinsically be comparing the value of one psilencer or psycannon to 2 storm bolters and 3+ storm bolters respectively, and deciding the use of the 2CP + ToC on a more costly GK special weapon (with the -1 to hit on the move), isnt worth the consideration in the list-building stage.
In the example i mentioned (reddit) he was comparing them on solely on their performance alone and coming to the conclusion that the idea 10 man Paladin loadout was 10 Stormbolters.
No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.
So this is not at all the results I get. Assume 4 heavy weapons vs a KEQ (T8, 3+/5++). With simply Convergence and Focus, having moved and no rerolls, the Psycannons (16 shots S8 AP-2 D2) do 2.667 total wounds for 5.333 damage. The Psilencers (24 shots S5 AP-1 Dd3+1) do 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
Also note that the psilencers, with two unsaved wounds, can do anywhere from 4-8 damage, while the psycannons are capped at 4.
Now, if we add Draigo and Bring down the Beast, those numbers change:
Psycannons - 6 unsaved wounds, 12 damage
Psilencers - 5 unsaved wounds, 15 damage
Note again that, with six unsaved wounds, psycannons will always have 12 damage. Whereas, with five unsaved wounds, psilencers will be anywhere from 10 to TWENTY, which far outperforms the psycannons.
Now, if we put Guidance litany on the psycannons versus Power litany for psilencers...well, mathhammer won't let me reroll damage so I can't do that, but presumably I'd hit that 16 wound mark a lot with the psilencers. So let's just put Guidance on both.
Psycannons - 7.111 unsaved wounds, 14.222 damage
Psilencers - 5.926 unsaved wounds, 17.778 damage. Better than the psycannons!
And if you add in Psychic Onslaught...
(so we've got a Draigo reroll, Bring Down the Beast, Guidance and Focus litanies, Convergence, and Psychic Onslaught)
Psilencers (S6 AP-2 Dd3+1) - 7.901 unsaved wounds, 23.704 damage. Reroll one of these damage dice, and you've killed a Knight (although it costs 5CP, two passive buffs, and two active buffs)
There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.
That base D1 kills the Psycannon, period. I mean, if it had something else going for it like range or some proc rule or...anything, I might use them.
Right now I'm toying a 22 Paladin list. 2× 6 man units with Psilencers and then a 10 man with 4 Incinerators just to see if the one strat is worth it. It probably won't be so I'll likely scrap it before even getting halfway through the list process.
I thought they made a case for higher armor save targets but ya that's what i've got on pretty much all accounts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That base D1 kills the Psycannon, period. I mean, if it had something else going for it like range or some proc rule or...anything, I might use them.
Right now I'm toying a 22 Paladin list. 2× 6 man units with Psilencers and then a 10 man with 4 Incinerators just to see if the one strat is worth it. It probably won't be so I'll likely scrap it before even getting halfway through the list process.
Are you going to have the CP to run that many Paladins? You could easily burn half a dozen points per round on one unit.
In regards to the psilencer/psycannon debate:
(yes, I have more to say)
Psilencers cost 4pts, and psycannons 7pts (there's no price difference any longer between PAGK and GKT). So 4 psilencers (the max you can get in a unit) are 16pts, while 4 psycannons are 28pts, a difference of 12pts (not the 20pts that someone earlier was touting, but still significant).
==so psilencers are slightly cheaper
Without big buffs, damage output against a Knight is fairly equal between the two weapons. With buffs, the psilencers significantly outperform. Against GEQ (Guardsmen, Cultists, Boyz, Gaunts, lesser Daemons) and Primaris (2W Marines), I'd rather have volume of shots.
=so unbuffed, damage output is roughly comparable; but against chaff volume of shots is better imo.
I think in a given phase, the question might not be whether psilencers or psycannons are better, but if either one is better than 40 storm bolter shots given the situation on the table. Remember also you can basically shoot 2 of your "shooty units" with full buffs...one in the psychic phase and one in the shooting phase.
Edit: assuming you can only buff one thing and people are running 10-man units, there’s probably a case to be made for a higher number of shots in some cases or in other cases going for the max damage against a big thing. You probably aren’t always going to buffing/shooting the same unit. I’m sorry, my initial comment wasn’t super clear.
greyknight12 wrote: I think in a given phase, the question might not be whether psilencers or psycannons are better, but if either one is better than 40 storm bolter shots given the situation on the table. Remember also you can basically shoot 2 of your "shooty units" with full buffs...one in the psychic phase and one in the shooting phase.
Well it's been discussed in the previous page that psilencers and psycannons do preform better than storm bolters with even just the ToC buff.
The point was, if the player thinks the increase in cost is worth the improvement of the GK special weapons. Basically, if you think you're okay with your GK infantry shooting at most S6 AP-1 D2 for all/majority of your shooting needs then, it looks like they wont bother with any of the special weapons.
And for completeness sake, I'll just add if under just ToC, psycannons will do better against psilencers vs. units with:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^This is even if they move and shoot. If they stand still and / or add PO buff they will also do better. Make that what you will.
Xenomancers wrote: Ahh - are you aware you can take advantage of 2 tides in 1 turn?
Yes, are you aware you can only do that once per game? At least in match play games.
Well, you could basically do:
Odd turn:
Have Tide of Escalation active
Psychic phase: smite with 2 MW, then change to Tide of Convergence at the end.
Shooting phase: shoot with buffed psi weapons
Even turn:
Psychic phase: use Edict Imperator to shoot one unit with buffed psi weapons, change to Tide of Escalation, smite with 2 MW Shooting phase: rest shoots without ToC buff
Odd turn:
Rince and repeat
And if you use Edict Imperator, you can use Psybolt Ammo or Psychic Onslaught twice in one turn (once in the psychic phase and once in the shooting phase), but you'll definitely be burning through your CP fast.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
The biggest difference is that on a 10 SB unit, you'd be using Psybolt Ammo, which buffs all 10 models. If you use 4 heavy weapons + 1-6 stormbolters, you'd use Psychic Onslaught, which only buffs 4 models in the unit. If the unit moved and heavy weapons would have their -1 penalty, you'll see that 10 SB with ToC and PA do more damage than the 6 SB+4 HW unit with ToC and PO. It's a niche case, but something to keep in mind. Especially for more mobile units like Interceptors that can't even take 4 heavy weapons in a unit, it might be more useful to stay with 10 SB.
No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.
So this is not at all the results I get.
Spoiler:
Assume 4 heavy weapons vs a KEQ (T8, 3+/5++). With simply Convergence and Focus, having moved and no rerolls, the Psycannons (16 shots S8 AP-2 D2) do 2.667 total wounds for 5.333 damage. The Psilencers (24 shots S5 AP-1 Dd3+1) do 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
Also note that the psilencers, with two unsaved wounds, can do anywhere from 4-8 damage, while the psycannons are capped at 4.
Now, if we add Draigo and Bring down the Beast, those numbers change:
Psycannons - 6 unsaved wounds, 12 damage
Psilencers - 5 unsaved wounds, 15 damage
Note again that, with six unsaved wounds, psycannons will always have 12 damage. Whereas, with five unsaved wounds, psilencers will be anywhere from 10 to TWENTY, which far outperforms the psycannons.
Now, if we put Guidance litany on the psycannons versus Power litany for psilencers...well, mathhammer won't let me reroll damage so I can't do that, but presumably I'd hit that 16 wound mark a lot with the psilencers. So let's just put Guidance on both.
Psycannons - 7.111 unsaved wounds, 14.222 damage
Psilencers - 5.926 unsaved wounds, 17.778 damage. Better than the psycannons!
And if you add in Psychic Onslaught...
(so we've got a Draigo reroll, Bring Down the Beast, Guidance and Focus litanies, Convergence, and Psychic Onslaught)
Psilencers (S6 AP-2 Dd3+1) - 7.901 unsaved wounds, 23.704 damage. Reroll one of these damage dice, and you've killed a Knight (although it costs 5CP, two passive buffs, and two active buffs)
There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.
That's because you're adding Invocation of Focus, which benefits psilencers more than psycannons. It's the same with this Greyknights spreadsheet, it's using every buff you can throw at it the unit. And yes, defintely, psilencers do more damage then because they get a bigger benefit from buffs like Bring Down the Beast and Focus of Invocation.
If you just have Tide of Convergence active, and possibly Psychic Onslaught, psycannons outdamage psilencers against armoured targets. Look at it this way, a Psycannon with just Tide of Convergence outdamages a lascannon against T7+ for a lot cheaper, and only gets better if you start throwing buffs at it. Tide of Convergence has certainly made it a viable weapon now.
But Invocation of Focus will only ever buff 1 unit at the same time, costs at least 107 points for the Chaplain and only goes off on a 3+. Making the argument that psilencers are better because they're 12pt cheaper for 4, but then disregarding that you're adding at least that many points of units to buff them seems a little odd.
In the end, I think the major takeaway from all this mathhammering is that you want different units to have different loadouts, and not just spam the same loadout over all your units.
Take that 10 man Interceptor or Strike Knight squad with 10 stormbolters for that Psybolt Ammo alpha strike, add a 10 man Paladin squad with 4 psilencers to buff up the wazoo with every psychic power/stratagem you want and a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons that just has Tide of Convergence active because all the buffs are going to the Paladin squad and it doesn't want to attract too much attention to itself.
In the end, I think the major takeaway from all this mathhammering is that you want different units to have different loadouts, and not just spam the same loadout over all your units.
Take that 10 man Interceptor or Strike Knight squad with 10 stormbolters for that Psybolt Ammo alpha strike, add a 10 man Paladin squad with 4 psilencers to buff up the wazoo with every psychic power/stratagem you want and a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons that just has Tide of Convergence active because all the buffs are going to the Paladin squad and it doesn't want to attract too much attention to itself.
Indeed, this adds some more variety to a GK army in order to deal with different threats more efficiently.
However, there is a trade-off between small and large units.
For small units, the number of smites is larger,
while for large units, the shooting buffs are more efficiently used.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, in round 1 I'd start with tide of shadows to keep the units already on the battle field alive - no matter if going first or second.
In round 2, I'd switch to either tide of escalation or tide of convergence.
This will depend on several factors.
With my GK army played recently I was able to organize a massive ''alpha'' strike in round 2,
in which all units up to the Dreads and Techmarines were in rapid fire range,
using deep strike, shunt and gate of infinity.
The army contained no psi-weapons for infantry models and
used smite all over the place.
In this respect, tide of escalation would be the better pick.
On the other, if one is able to squeeze in several psi weapons,
then tide of convergence will be an option.
But using the Purgation squad is a bit questionable as it cannot deep strike.
No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.
So this is not at all the results I get.
Spoiler:
Assume 4 heavy weapons vs a KEQ (T8, 3+/5++). With simply Convergence and Focus, having moved and no rerolls, the Psycannons (16 shots S8 AP-2 D2) do 2.667 total wounds for 5.333 damage. The Psilencers (24 shots S5 AP-1 Dd3+1) do 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
Also note that the psilencers, with two unsaved wounds, can do anywhere from 4-8 damage, while the psycannons are capped at 4.
Now, if we add Draigo and Bring down the Beast, those numbers change:
Psycannons - 6 unsaved wounds, 12 damage
Psilencers - 5 unsaved wounds, 15 damage
Note again that, with six unsaved wounds, psycannons will always have 12 damage. Whereas, with five unsaved wounds, psilencers will be anywhere from 10 to TWENTY, which far outperforms the psycannons.
Now, if we put Guidance litany on the psycannons versus Power litany for psilencers...well, mathhammer won't let me reroll damage so I can't do that, but presumably I'd hit that 16 wound mark a lot with the psilencers. So let's just put Guidance on both.
Psycannons - 7.111 unsaved wounds, 14.222 damage
Psilencers - 5.926 unsaved wounds, 17.778 damage. Better than the psycannons!
And if you add in Psychic Onslaught...
(so we've got a Draigo reroll, Bring Down the Beast, Guidance and Focus litanies, Convergence, and Psychic Onslaught)
Psilencers (S6 AP-2 Dd3+1) - 7.901 unsaved wounds, 23.704 damage. Reroll one of these damage dice, and you've killed a Knight (although it costs 5CP, two passive buffs, and two active buffs)
There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.
That's because you're adding Invocation of Focus, which benefits psilencers more than psycannons. It's the same with this Greyknights spreadsheet, it's using every buff you can throw at it the unit. And yes, defintely, psilencers do more damage then because they get a bigger benefit from buffs like Bring Down the Beast and Focus of Invocation.
If you just have Tide of Convergence active, and possibly Psychic Onslaught, psycannons outdamage psilencers against armoured targets. Look at it this way, a Psycannon with just Tide of Convergence outdamages a lascannon against T7+ for a lot cheaper, and only gets better if you start throwing buffs at it. Tide of Convergence has certainly made it a viable weapon now.
I couldn't wholeheartedly agree with this anymore if I tried. ToC is like a dream come true for our psycannons! It makes them what I expected them to be in 8ed from the get go. GW is about 28 months late on this needed upgrade but it's here now - and so I wont complain anymore than that.
While not perfect, I like the idea you just need to be in the ToC and you can be rest assured psycannons will do some real work without anymore buffs! PO isn't actually required (and some here have already stated they feel it's not worth it / low priority for CP spending), so save that 2CP for Psybolt ammo to use it on a 10-man squad with SBs so they can join in on the ToC fun.
Waking Dreamer wrote: And for completeness sake, I'll just add if under just ToC, psycannons will do better against psilencers vs. units with:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^ That is not an inconsequential selection of hard targets that psycannons will clearly damage more than stormbolters or psilencers - without requiring any extra CP expenditure or fickle character buff activations.
From my perspective, it's not unreasonable to have your mass storm bolters deal with the chaff and even heavy infantry (with psybolt ammo), while reserving the rest of the slots for psycannons that deal the best against units with Sv2+, T7, T8 etc. Again, with no further CP required nor requiring the micro-managing of other Character buffs which may or may not activate anyway. All you need to concentrate on is getting them into range during ToC, ideally with the re-roll to hit buff (as is standard tactic with a shooting unit), and combine that with the rest of the storm bolters of your army to first clear the drones / fodder - before following it through against their army's toughest armour with your ToC boosted psychically-charged cannons!
Homeskillet wrote:
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.
I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.
Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".
This..
The codex specifically states "GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR UNIT"
it doesnt talk about "squad"
both the terminators and the paladins have the "Grey Knights Terminator" Unit keyword. so it works on both
After looking more closely at the keywords, I'm happy to be wrong! This is phenomenal for GK!
Before the new book, I had been using one just for the Terrify power. GK need to be charging, and negating overwatch is huge. I personally like to take Eisenhorn, but that's just because I love his books and that he casts two powers.
Before the new book, I had been using one just for the Terrify power. GK need to be charging, and negating overwatch is huge. I personally like to take Eisenhorn, but that's just because I love his books and that he casts two powers.
I'm running Coteaz right now, and Rex is in the mail.
Coteaz has an amazing ability to just some DEs day up by increasing the cost of a stratagem, and his Spynetwork attacks act as a DS deterrent.
Rex on the other hand has 3 casts 4 denies 2+/3++ and can DS in with the rest of your Paladins.
Nah Cortez is the man. He is in every inquisition based army I run (sisters, death watch, grey knights) and he always does work. Terrify is great. Spy network to make someone spend extra cp on strats is great. I once made someone pay 3cp for a reroll thanks to him and an assassin, it was funny and really bothered my opponent lol.
If you just have Tide of Convergence active, and possibly Psychic Onslaught, psycannons outdamage psilencers against armoured targets. Look at it this way, a Psycannon with just Tide of Convergence outdamages a lascannon against T7+ for a lot cheaper, and only gets better if you start throwing buffs at it. Tide of Convergence has certainly made it a viable weapon now.
But Invocation of Focus will only ever buff 1 unit at the same time, costs at least 107 points for the Chaplain and only goes off on a 3+. Making the argument that psilencers are better because they're 12pt cheaper for 4, but then disregarding that you're adding at least that many points of units to buff them seems a little odd.
In the end, I think the major takeaway from all this mathhammering is that you want different units to have different loadouts, and not just spam the same loadout over all your units. Take that 10 man Interceptor or Strike Knight squad with 10 stormbolters for that Psybolt Ammo alpha strike, add a 10 man Paladin squad with 4 psilencers to buff up the wazoo with every psychic power/stratagem you want and a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons that just has Tide of Convergence active because all the buffs are going to the Paladin squad and it doesn't want to attract too much attention to itself.
Interestingly, my competitive 2k list has those three units in it--double battalion, 5 HQs, Apothecary, 6x5 GKSS, Shuntbomb, Purge-cannon, and Palabomb (with four psilencers).
These are interesting and valid points. (And yay, people are looking at my spreadsheet!) I agree that psilencers benefit a lot more from the AP boost than psycannons. In fact, I noticed that psycannons have diminishing returns on that front when they've got to AP-3; that is to say, they only ever really need AP-2. However, in my number crunching, I still see that psilencers always seem to at least equal psycannons.
I added "Draigo+Convergence" to the spreadsheet, a combo that will be easy to pull off multiple times a game. Psycannons kill a single more Intercessor, do a bit more overkill to a single Centurion, and a bit two more damage to a vehicle. Psilencers do a bit more damage to T5 3+ (is that Aggressors?).
So unbuffed/with passive buffs (ie. Draigo and Tide), psycannons are a bit ahead. But as soon as you start giving active buffs (ie. powers, litanies, and strats), the psilencers pull massively ahead.
well, am 3-0 with Grey Knights 2.0
use all infantry
2 battalions
Draigo, Voldus, Captain (WL-first to the fray), Librarian
6x strike squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with halberd )
2x interceptor squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
1 apothecary
1 ancient (banner of flame)
10 paladins, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
game 1 vs chaos, went well, managed to do an inner fire bomb on max unit of chaos terminators
game 2 vs eldar, ynnari, mostly shut down their psychic phase
game 3 vs Dark Angels, used paladins as a distraction, attracted majority of his army towards them, then the strikes/interceptors cleaned house (paladins did get wiped out, but was well worth the sacrifice, tabled opponent at bottom of round 4 )
2 battalions
Draigo, Voldus, Captain (WL-first to the fray), Librarian
6x strike squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with halberd )
2x interceptor squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
1 apothecary
1 ancient (banner of flame)
10 paladins, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
game 1 vs chaos, went well, managed to do an inner fire bomb on max unit of chaos terminators
game 2 vs eldar, ynnari, mostly shut down their psychic phase
game 3 vs Dark Angels, used paladins as a distraction, attracted majority of his army towards them, then the strikes/interceptors cleaned house (paladins did get wiped out, but was well worth the sacrifice, tabled opponent at bottom of round 4 )
Good results.
Nevertheless, I wouldn't be too enthusiastic.
GK are still not top tier - medium to low tier is my guess.
If you play in a larger tourney in the top bracket, I see GK on the loosing side.
You guys think GK smite spam could be a competetive thing ? Triple batalion (18 CP) of mostly infantry:
EDIT: Forgot to mention, thats a 2k points
1.
GMNDK with sword
Draigo
3x5 strike squad
Apothecary
Paladin Ancient
5x Paladins
2.
GMNDK with sword
Librarian
3x5 Strike squad
3.
Brother-Captain
Castellan Crowe
3x5 Strike squad
Basicly what you do is you try to set up big blob around middle of table so most of units get benefit from draigo rerolls AND +1 to cast smites, aswell as you use tide to generate +1 mortal wound, and brother-captain to increase smite's range into 24".
You can gate GMNDK's into side flanks of the map to fight for some objectives but you should focus more on a single side/middle board couse you are best at mid-24"ish-range
Its ~15 smite's with +1 to cast and +1 to wound for a total of 30+ mortal wounds every turn.
Additionally, you have ~50 storm bolter shoots with a rerolls to hit so GL getting into a close range
Jabberscythe wrote: You guys think GK smite spam could be a competetive thing ? Triple batalion (18 CP) of mostly infantry:
EDIT: Forgot to mention, thats a 2k points
1.
GMNDK with sword
Draigo
3x5 strike squad
Apothecary
Paladin Ancient
5x Paladins
2.
GMNDK with sword
Librarian
3x5 Strike squad
3.
Brother-Captain
Castellan Crowe
3x5 Strike squad
Basicly what you do is you try to set up big blob around middle of table so most of units get benefit from draigo rerolls AND +1 to cast smites, aswell as you use tide to generate +1 mortal wound, and brother-captain to increase smite's range into 24".
You can gate GMNDK's into side flanks of the map to fight for some objectives but you should focus more on a single side/middle board couse you are best at mid-24"ish-range
Its ~15 smite's with +1 to cast and +1 to wound for a total of 30+ mortal wounds every turn.
Additionally, you have ~50 storm bolter shoots with a rerolls to hit so GL getting into a close range
I think you'd be better off dropping down to double battalion and swapping some of the strikes for interceptors, they are straight-up better than strikes and you should maximize those. Purgation squads aren't bad either, point is you don't need that much CP/it's not worth ONLY taking strikes.
I've been running about 65 power-armor bodies and it's worked out so far; but to be fair I'm probably the biggest Paladin-bomb skeptic I know (I'm keeping an open mind and will test one though!). I also haven't been building lists with GMDK, only vehicle is a Ven Dread to hide with Astral Aim.
Elric Greywolf wrote: So unbuffed/with passive buffs (ie. Draigo and Tide), psycannons are a bit ahead.
But as soon as you start giving active buffs (ie. powers, litanies, and strats), the psilencers pull massively ahead.
Would it make sense to have your forward drop paladin squad, Draigo, and attendants use psycannons and focus the litanies and stratagems onto psilencer purgation squads to yield the best benefit then?
Maximizing interceptors throws me into space marine wagon, and I dont need GK to do it actually.
This list was aboute maximizing 2wounds smite to replace regular shooting with psychic powers (against some -1 to hit lists, like possesed and all nurgle demons, all type of flyers and other weird combinations of really unkillable units)
Also dropping GMNDK's and palladins might be actually decent option, so you leave opponent's multiple wound weapons only being able to do 1 dmg anyway. Might reconsider that.
Jabberscythe wrote: Maximizing interceptors throws me into space marine wagon, and I dont need GK to do it actually.
This list was aboute maximizing 2wounds smite to replace regular shooting with psychic powers (against some -1 to hit lists, like possesed and all nurgle demons, all type of flyers and other weird combinations of really unkillable units)
Also dropping GMNDK's and palladins might be actually decent option, so you leave opponent's multiple wound weapons only being able to do 1 dmg anyway. Might reconsider that.
Interceptors give you mobility to jump over screens, which is important since smites hit the closest unit. They can also jump over screens to assault units or grab objectives with their shunts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?
Dude...you do realize that is basically every armor profile in the game right? They are better vs literally every vehicle and anything with a 2+ save. You have storm bolters for everything else. Just talking about the tides here. Cause there is a lot more to playing GK than buffing one squad. Plus - to save lots of points and maintain melee ability - your buff stratagems will be best played on units of 10 storm bolters.
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".
You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)
I haven't seen a competitive SM list with a LR is quite a while, and i can tell you as a Custodies player the Telemon is not a good example of anti-tank, Riptides and Leviathans on the other hand are great examples.
This is giving me a lot more to think about, thank you.
You can do it in more than 1 turn. You just can't do it 2 turns in a row. Ultimately you are always going to use the psychic tide 95% of the time. If you are in a different tide - you change to psychic at the start of the psychic phase. Then they next turn you can do it again.
So if all goes well. Turn 1 if you go first you will start in psychic and change to shooting hoping to deal lots of damage.
I see your point for sure about psilencers. They are both pretty frigging bad weapons when they aren't in the shooting tide. So if you intend to not be in that tide often. (every other turn) I wouldn't bother taking any of them. Because your units are always moving and negative to hit modifiers. They are terrible weapons. The psicannon at least bring ap-1 though which helps vs units that are getting 2+ saves. Another thing storm bolters struggle with. The shooting tide makes psycannons the superior choice though. It's harder to argue against it. Just do the math.
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
I didn't make that spreadsheet, not sure why it's being attributed to me!
On the shooting tide psi-weapons thing, remember that you can ALWAYS shoot one squad in the tide of convergence each turn if you're flip-flopping, since you have the ability to shoot in the psychic phase. You just pick when you swap tides (beginning or end of psychic phase, depending on which one you're in). With Draigo, potential +6" range from a chaplain and/or astral aim I think it's totally worth having a 100 pt purgation squad just to buff up every turn...and maybe just do one of each loadout and buff the more appropriate one for the threat (like AM players with basilisk+wyvren do) or even on TOC turns use psychic onslaught in the psychic phase on one squad and again in the shooting phase on the other (and even psybolt some storm bolters too if you want to go all in).
tksolway wrote: Can GK use the Masters from Faith and Fury? I'd love to use the Apothecary rules there.
Don't think so, I don't have Faith & Fury but Codex: Space Marines specifically calls out GK as not being "Space Marines" or "<Chapter>".
The books says you can apply these to models found in the "Space Marine Codex". I was hoping it was FAQ'ed or clarified or something, somewhat annoying that apparently the Grey Knights forgot how to be good Librarians or Apothicarians ... :-(
greyknight12 wrote: I didn't make that spreadsheet, not sure why it's being attributed to me!
Sorry, it was one of the vets arguing with Venom again.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?
I'll be fielding 2 on my Brother Captains (2+WS), considering i won't be using stratagems on a single weapon system and cannons seem better against a few specific targets so i think having a couple to finish them off is a good idea. The other 14 heavy weapons are Psilcners - that's what i've taken away from the conversations here.
You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.
You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.
I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.
You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.
I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.
No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.
Jabberscythe wrote: The real question is, do you really need a high ap, single damage shots if you have A LOT OF SMITES for heavy targets ?
It depends on the army you're facing.
As long as you can make sure not a single 1 wound enemy model is between his heavy target assets and your 12" or 24" smite dealers, before your psychic phase begins - or that his army cannot heavily deny / minus-1 or more to your smite casting you could be okay...
You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.
I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.
No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.
Yeah and I get double the Psilencers for every Psycannon taken, which is especially important for an army already low on models to begin with. Otherwise more people would be defending the state of Flamers. In reality you just take more Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?
I'll be fielding 2 on my Brother Captains (2+WS), considering i won't be using stratagems on a single weapon system and cannons seem better against a few specific targets so i think having a couple to finish them off is a good idea. The other 14 heavy weapons are Psilcners - that's what i've taken away from the conversations here.
Will you be planning on shooting your heavy weapons during ToC (but with no additional strats / buffs), and NOT against these types of targets:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^ Because psilencers would be WORSE against them than psycannons...then you should be okay.
You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.
I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.
No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.
Yeah and I get double the Psilencers for every Psycannon taken, which is especially important for an army already low on models to begin with. Otherwise more people would be defending the state of Flamers. In reality you just take more Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters.
If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.
So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.
I'm seriously considering to bring some 10 man purifier squads instead of paladin bomb.
A 10 man purifier squad can bring as many special weapons and has the exact same amount of firepower than a 10 man paladin squad and with the start to have a 4++ plus sanctuary for a 3++ and the tide of shadow they become considerable thought, not much as the 10 man paladin squad, but for much fewer points. Also, they are more CP efficient as you don't need to spend 2 CP for the -1 Damage. Granted that they cannot teleport strike, but you can pay 1CP to do so, or you can gate then. Granted that they have fewer attacks, but they can at least smite for D6 in cc.
Jabberscythe wrote: The real question is, do you really need a high ap, single damage shots if you have A LOT OF SMITES for heavy targets ?
Smites with D2 are too good to pass.
But your army needs to get close and personal.
What I've seen here are armies with 3 battalions which can hardly reach the enemy within 2 turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Purifiers won't be durable even with a 4++.
Well, I remember my Harlies.
A 4++ is nice on paper but mass small fire kills them.
Purifiers are a bit better with T4 and 3+ save, but this will not save them.
If you had said 10 Intercessors, this have would been a deal.
Waking Dreamer wrote: If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.
So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.
This, pretty much. If you use the cheapest platform - a Strike Knight or Purgator - you can get 7 bodies with psilencers for the same cost as 6 bodies with psycannons. Very far from double. And as has been discussed in length, psilencers are only better than psycannons if you stack specific buffs on them, or if you don't intend to use tide of convergence. And if you need a Chaplain (whose buff is unreliable) and/or 2-4 CP worth of stratagems every turn to make them better, they're not really cheaper than psycannons, are they? And even then you're generally still only buffing 1 unit of psilencers at a time. And yes, psilencers are better for chaff clearing, but with all those storm bolters GK generally have very little problem clearing chaff anyway.
Unless you don't intent to use Tide of Convergence a lot or really can't spare the points, I'd take 4, maybe 8 psilencers max in an army list on a unit that can take 4 like a Paladin bomb, and use that as the target for buffs. On the other heavy weapon slots I'd take psycannons. Especially units that you don't intend to buff anyway, like that lone heavy weapon in a 5 man Terminator or Strike squad, or on a Brother-Captain or Paladin Ancient.
2W smites are also very nice indeed, but are forced to target the closest unit (so can be wasted on chaff) and without a bro-cap around they are very short ranged.
After my fist couple of test games I am trending towards the escalation/shadow dance for my tides. I just feel ToC doesnt give an equal boost in offensive firepower compared to esacalation, especially as clearing chaff in t1/2 isnt really a problem, and then your smites really start to hurt in later turns once the screens are gone.
stormcraft wrote: After my fist couple of test games I am trending towards the escalation/shadow dance for my tides. I just feel ToC doesnt give an equal boost in offensive firepower compared to esacalation, especially as clearing chaff in t1/2 isnt really a problem, and then your smites really start to hurt in later turns once the screens are gone.
This is also my impression.
ToC requires to bring quite a few psi weapons to bear.
Purgation squads need to be within 24'' range and will then be a high priority target.
Recitation of projection (for an extra 6'' range) seems to be a must-have here, but requires a Chaplain to be within 6''and works only for one squad.
There could be better uses of a precious Chaplain.
for the person that asked why all falchions on my paladins
because they look COOL for me, its more looks then mathematical efficiency
that being said, I do have a question I found this box of greyknight paladins gathering dust on the back of the shelf
I am considering making 4 of them paladins with incinerators … opinion??
unit would then consist of 10 paladins - Sgt with hammer, 9 with falchions, 6 stormbolters and 4 incinerators
use the strat, drop 3" in front of the enemy some other characters behind them, mega buff them out with -1 to wound them, +1 to invul save, hammerhand, ect historically, for me, my paladins have been a HUGE distraction carnifex, strictly because of how much fire it takes to remove them, with this scenario, my opponent can not ignore them there have been quite a few games were the paladins do get wiped out, but the other 45 infantry in the army survive to close with and destroy the enemy, strictly because the enemy focused 100% of his fire into the paladins
Observation: Greyknights 2.0 yes, it is very easy for an opponent to customize his/her army to effectively deal with Grey Knights, and you will have a very hard time winning games vs that type of player if they know in advance you are bringing Grey Knights However, I have found, that vs generic take all comers lists, Grey Knights perform quite well
Has anyone had any fun Inner Fire results yet? I got off a surprise 11 Mortal Wounds on a Swarmlord the other day, which is my best result so far.
I was looking at a Super Psyker Buff Bomb for fun. Santic Shard on a cheap character, having a basic smite cast from somewhere nearby for the stratagem buff, and possibly a Librarian nearby for the Nullifier to possibly increase the result one more, or save from a Perils.
I got Inner Fire off with the 3" strat on my Apothecary, and Psychic Range Increase strat to make it up to 7" and got a 13 total result. +1 Brotherhood, +1 Santic, +1 Strat, -1 Shadows from Swarmy. I actually rolled an 11, so I couldn't use the Nullfier, otherwise it would've Periled. Got ten 3+'s and two 1's And with Loremaster I had Vortex of Doom to see if I could do something stupid with that, only rolled a 7 with the same pluses and rolled a 1 on the damage.
But still, it was stupid and fun. Couldn't kill him though which is sad. Definitely better used against small Characters.
Waking Dreamer wrote: If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.
So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.
This, pretty much. If you use the cheapest platform - a Strike Knight or Purgator - you can get 7 bodies with psilencers for the same cost as 6 bodies with psycannons. Very far from double. And as has been discussed in length, psilencers are only better than psycannons if you stack specific buffs on them, or if you don't intend to use tide of convergence. And if you need a Chaplain (whose buff is unreliable) and/or 2-4 CP worth of stratagems every turn to make them better, they're not really cheaper than psycannons, are they? And even then you're generally still only buffing 1 unit of psilencers at a time. And yes, psilencers are better for chaff clearing, but with all those storm bolters GK generally have very little problem clearing chaff anyway.
Unless you don't intent to use Tide of Convergence a lot or really can't spare the points, I'd take 4, maybe 8 psilencers max in an army list on a unit that can take 4 like a Paladin bomb, and use that as the target for buffs. On the other heavy weapon slots I'd take psycannons. Especially units that you don't intend to buff anyway, like that lone heavy weapon in a 5 man Terminator or Strike squad, or on a Brother-Captain or Paladin Ancient.
2W smites are also very nice indeed, but are forced to target the closest unit (so can be wasted on chaff) and without a bro-cap around they are very short ranged.
It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
because they look COOL
for me, its more looks then mathematical efficiency
that being said, I do have a question
I found this box of greyknight paladins gathering dust on the back of the shelf
I am considering making 4 of them paladins with incinerators … opinion??
unit would then consist of 10 paladins - Sgt with hammer, 9 with falchions, 6 stormbolters and 4 incinerators
use the strat, drop 3" in front of the enemy
some other characters behind them, mega buff them out with -1 to wound them, +1 to invul save, hammerhand, ect
historically, for me, my paladins have been a HUGE distraction carnifex, strictly because of how much fire it takes to remove them,
with this scenario, my opponent can not ignore them
there have been quite a few games were the paladins do get wiped out, but the other 45 infantry in the army survive to close with and destroy the enemy, strictly because the enemy focused 100% of his fire into the paladins
Observation:
Greyknights 2.0
yes, it is very easy for an opponent to customize his/her army to effectively deal with Grey Knights, and you will have a very hard time winning games vs that type of player if they know in advance you are bringing Grey Knights
However, I have found, that vs generic take all comers lists, Grey Knights perform quite well
I thought about doing that same exact thing, but once you dropped and shot, you have 4 weapons not able to do anything the next turn.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?
I'll be fielding 2 on my Brother Captains (2+WS), considering i won't be using stratagems on a single weapon system and cannons seem better against a few specific targets so i think having a couple to finish them off is a good idea. The other 14 heavy weapons are Psilcners - that's what i've taken away from the conversations here.
Will you be planning on shooting your heavy weapons during ToC (but with no additional strats / buffs), and NOT against these types of targets:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^ Because psilencers would be WORSE against them than psycannons...then you should be okay.
You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.
I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.
No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.
Yeah and I get double the Psilencers for every Psycannon taken, which is especially important for an army already low on models to begin with. Otherwise more people would be defending the state of Flamers. In reality you just take more Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters.
If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.
So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.
Likely the same number of heavies as really. The difference in the costs of the weapons does not net you a new unit. It nets you like 2 models. You need 5 models to add a new heavy. The difference between taking psi over psy nets you a few thunderhammers at best. Which is a consideration but these are afterthoughts as they likely wont even use the dang thing more than once.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.
And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296
The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.
For Paladins, I wonder if a hammer would be worth it on the Paragon since WS 2+ makes the -1 to hit hurt a little less.
On inner fire, it’s also completely worth it to 3D6 that test. My 2 results are 7 mortal wounds and the next game I just passed the power with a 5...did 3 wounds :(
The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.
A smart enemy will try to shoot them down no matter what.
An when the bomb will start to crumble it will be hard to come back.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.
And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296
The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.
What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread. Also if you're gonna incorporate buffs they get the most mileage from the litany to reroll damage. Ven Dreads when grouped together can also be self sustaining via giving themselves rerolling 1s at the cost of a single CP.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.
And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296
The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.
What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread. Also if you're gonna incorporate buffs they get the most mileage from the litany to reroll damage. Ven Dreads when grouped together can also be self sustaining via giving themselves rerolling 1s at the cost of a single CP.
Ven dread is good. I'm always going to bring at least one. more often than not it is going to be shooting out of LOS killing their indirect fire. Need more than that to take down any big threats. Just keep in mind you are comparing a 7 point weapon to a 20 points one...
Well, I remember my Harlies.
A 4++ is nice on paper but mass small fire kills them.
Purifiers are a bit better with T4 and 3+ save, but this will not save them.
If you had said 10 Intercessors, this have would been a deal.
Perhaps I'm doing it wrong but with sanctuary, the 4++ wouldn't become 3++? 3++ is almost statistically as 2 wounds with a 4++
Perhaps I'm overthinking it a bit. I've tried the paladin bomb this weekend and it worked wonders. However, it gives me an uneasy feeling about CP consumption and with the fact that due to this CP consumption the whole army has to be built around the paladin bomb leaving no so much room for other tactics. I'm afraid that somebody can come easily with a counter to the paladin bomb.
If you were playing against GK and somebody dropped a paladin bomb in the table how would you try to counter it?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.
And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296
The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.
What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread. Also if you're gonna incorporate buffs they get the most mileage from the litany to reroll damage. Ven Dreads when grouped together can also be self sustaining via giving themselves rerolling 1s at the cost of a single CP.
Agree. Many times people forget a good point of the good old LC. Range. In 8th edition the capacity to sit behind cover and shoot from a safe distance to whatever you want has value. Especially when you can hide behind LoS.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.
And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296
The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.
This isn't accurate....Not at least base with just the ToC buff and no other buffs;
Psycannon against a 3+ T8 does .66 wounds assuming it doesn't move. Are you giving it 3 damage per shot instead of 2 on ToC?
Lascannon against a 3+ T8 get a wound thru .363 which results in 1.27 average damage
Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.
Now once you start buffing sure the psycannon gets better but isn't the star performer psilencer is.
psipso wrote: If you were playing against GK and somebody dropped a paladin bomb in the table how would you try to counter it?
Custodes: I'd out run it. The shooting doesn't hurt all that much against 2+/4++, and you only move 5" a turn. Custodes have -2 charge screens too. A caladius tank kills about 2 strike squads a turn, so I'd just kill the rest of the army while you gate every turn. Then I'd just assault the pallies, because their best buff (-1 dmg) only works against shooting.
A lot of armies have enough shooting even with all the buffs to kill 2-3 paladins a turn, and if they do that for a few turns your bomb shrinks really quickly. Remember that everyone is also trying to deal with 4W, T5 2+ models (Centurions) with Transhuman Physiology in cover, so the tech to slow, hinder, or just outright kill those units does exist. So I guess generally the idea would be either hurt it really bad, or kill the rest of the army while you ignore the paladins. If you cant screen it out, outrun it, or kill it; then the Paladin Bomb will definitely wreck your day.
Which is a good thing. It's good to have a discussion whether or not these few particular niches of the Psycannon outweigh the overall better Power Psilencers have?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.
And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296
The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.
This isn't accurate....Not at least base with just the ToC buff and no other buffs;
Psycannon against a 3+ T8 does .66 wounds assuming it doesn't move. Are you giving it 3 damage per shot instead of 2 on ToC?
Lascannon against a 3+ T8 get a wound thru .363 which results in 1.27 average damage
Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.
Now once you start buffing sure the psycannon gets better but isn't the star performer psilencer is.
.66 wounds is with 1 damage - It is 1.33 with 2 damage. It is also better to buff against this target too. Psycannons do 9.35 damage vs 8 with Psilencers with the +1 str and -1 ap bonus from 2cp stratagem. Psycannons in tide on convergence outperform in every situation vs knights/ rhinos / levithans. Pretty much everything the army struggles at killing with shooting. Psilencers will outperform vs like venoms and warwalkers. Storm bolters do pretty well against these targets though and you should have at least 40 SB in your army.
Which is a good thing. It's good to have a discussion whether or not these few particular niches of the Psycannon outweigh the overall better Power Psilencers have?
If anything was added to this debate i would agree, but it's the same arguments, the same "maths" you guys are just arguing in circles about the same
Edit: See the post below, and the 5 pages of replies that will follow
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It isn't just the extra Psilencers you get. You also get points saved for actual anti-tank weapons like for your Dreads for example.
I'm not sure how many heavy weapons you are taking that you think you're saving that many points. Even switching 12 psycannons to psilencers only gives you 36 points to play with after all. That's even not enough to pay for a Dread's twin lascannon, let alone the rest of the Dread.
And speaking of lascannons, keep in mind that a psycannon with just the Tide of Convergence buff already outdamages a lascannon:
Psycannon vs T7 3+ 1.778, vs T8 3+ 1.333 with BS3
Lascannon vs both 1.296
The psycannon only increases their lead over the lascannon if you give them any other buff, like Psychic Onslaught. Psycannons are now definitely also anti-tank weapons when used correctly. A Purgator Squad with 4 psycannons and a stormbolter, that has ToC and re-roll to hit will kill a Rhino a turn on average.
This isn't accurate....Not at least base with just the ToC buff and no other buffs;
Psycannon against a 3+ T8 does .66 wounds assuming it doesn't move. Are you giving it 3 damage per shot instead of 2 on ToC?
Lascannon against a 3+ T8 get a wound thru .363 which results in 1.27 average damage
Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.
Now once you start buffing sure the psycannon gets better but isn't the star performer psilencer is.
.66 wounds is with 1 damage - It is 1.33 with 2 damage. It is also better to buff against this target too. Psycannons do 9.35 damage vs 8 with Psilencers with the +1 str and -1 ap bonus from 2cp stratagem. Psycannons in tide on convergence outperform in every situation vs knights/ rhinos / levithans. Pretty much everything the army struggles at killing with shooting. Psilencers will outperform vs like venoms and warwalkers. Storm bolters do pretty well against these targets though and you should have at least 40 SB in your army.
Sigh, if you're going to use math please use it correctly. 2 Shots*.66(3+BS)=1.32*.5(St8 vs T8)=.66*.5(4+ Save)=.33*2(Damage)=.66
The psilencer base is the best weapon GK have. Hands down. I have no idea what your 9.35 vs 8 is based on so you'd have to expand on that but there is zero chance of psycannons outperforming when souped up psilencers. With psybolt against t8 psilencers do 1.96 (1.30 if you roll a 1 on the damage d3) while psycannons do 1.14. It gets sillier when you add in extra AP from Chaps or reroll to wound from strats or bonuses to hit. Honest to god I'm not sure how people still push the psycannon. It needs base damage 2 to be competitive and it doesn't have it. It's more expensive for less output and less potential output.
Sigh, if you're going to use math please use it correctly. 2 Shots*.66(3+BS)=1.32*.5(St8 vs T8)=.66*.5(4+ Save)=.33*2(Damage)=.66
Woah let's avoid throwing stones in glass houses now....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: Honest to god I'm not sure how people still push the psycannon. It needs base damage 2 to be competitive and it doesn't have it. It's more expensive for less output and less potential output.
Probably because they dont short-changed the psycannon with only 2 shots. Do you still think there's a disservice here for people recommend psycannon's for certain units / enemy targets?
And is there anyone else here who has other "maths" contentions that people are dropping down? Maths is the last thing that should be subjective or have multiple interpretations. One-by-one it can be proven correct or wrong. Just pick the post with the maths - like this recent one here. Redemption's maths hasn't been proven wrong yet.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What BS3+ Lascannon? Nobody is taking the basic Dread over a Ven Dread.
Stormravens and Land Raiders still exist. But against T7 3+ a BS2 lascannon still doesn't outdamage a BS3 psycannon with ToC.
psipso wrote:Agree. Many times people forget a good point of the good old LC. Range. In 8th edition the capacity to sit behind cover and shoot from a safe distance to whatever you want has value. Especially when you can hide behind LoS.
Oh yes definitely. The major advantage of the lascannon is its range, which the shorter ranged psilencer and psycannon can never achieve. One other advantage is that it's more economical to use a CP to reroll lascannon dice (especially the damage roll) because you get a greater effect for that CP expenditure as everything is packed in that single shot.
But of course you pay for that range with the higher point cost, and that it's result is much more swingy because everything relies on that single shot hitting, wounding, failing a save and rolling good on the damage. The psilencer and psycannons multiple shots make that average damage output more reliable.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Simply put, the Ven Dread is the cheapest you'll get.
Cheapest how, exactly?
Hulksmash wrote:Psilencer against a 3+ T8 sadly only does 1.29 wound per shooting round with no buffs on average with some variance.
Not sure how you arrived at 1.29.
Without any buffs:
BS3 Heavy 6 S4 AP- D3 makes 4 hits, 0.66 wounds, 0.22 unsaved wounds, 0.44 damage on average
With ToC:
BS3 Heavy 6 S5 AP- D3+1 makes 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 unsaved wounds, 1.33 damage on average
MiguelFelstone wrote:This gak with the cannons is never going to end.
The amount of bad math, misinformation and logical fallacies about this is simply mind boggling. I'm really starting to wonder if people aren't just trolling at this point. I mean, if people honestly think they can not only get more psilencers for the same point cost, but then also have points to get Dreadnoughts with that point difference all of a sudden...
Redemption wrote: The amount of bad math, misinformation and logical fallacies about this is simply mind boggling. I'm really starting to wonder if people aren't just trolling at this point. I mean, if people honestly think they can not only get more psilencers for the same point cost, but then also have points to get Dreadnoughts with that point difference all of a sudden...
You know what's sad, this was the very first thing i asked for when they were discussing recreating this thread with updated tactica. All i wanted to know was - what the numbers said about the two weapon systems.
The only thing i've learned in five pages is Xeno is almost certainly wrong, whatever it is.
At this point it doesn’t matter who’s right anymore. Here’s a basic primer on math hammer for those interested:
Mathhammer uses a crude form of “expected value” to arrive at an average result for a given scenario. This is based off the chance of rolling a specific value on a D6; for example rolling a 4+ translates to 3/6 possible outcomes on a die, or .5 “successes”. Probability is multiplicative, so you multiply the successes by each other for the cumulative result. The formula is as follows:
(Number of shots/attacks) x (hit chance) x (wound chance) x (failed saves chance) x (Average damage) x (FNP chance) = number of wounds
Example BS 3+ storm bolter shooting non-Iron Hands space marine, rapid fire:
(4 shots) x (4/6=0.67 hits) x (3/6=0.5 wounds) x (2/6=0.33 failed saves) x (1 dmg) x (6/6 failed FNP cause it’s not there=1) —> 4 x 0.67 x 0.5 x 0.33 = 0.44 wounds.
Now everyone can do their own math and make up their own minds on the subject, prioritizing their own specific matchups of concern.
And we can discuss other items.
My bad. I accept the oopsies I have created. My head got it stuck as a meh autocannon.
It does slightly beat out the psilencer against t7/t8 3+ in most scenarios on a gun for gun but for almost twice the points per equivalent damage (.32dpp vs .18dpp).
Personally I use the psilencer. I want the psycannon to be worth it but find that the even 12pts on my paladin squad makes a difference in fitting my puzzle piece if an army together. I've got 9 heavy weapon slots not on my dreadnought. That's only 27pts in difference BUT that allows me to not drop models and does the damage needed. Additionally when you think of 2 wound models with fnp (thanks ironhands) averaging 3 damage for everything that gets thru means more dead opponents than flat 2 damage.
People want to use them and I can see why but they still are worse point for point than psilencers.
Very long story short, I think the getaway from all this is:
Stormbolters: + Gets a big boost now against the right targets when Tide of Convergence and Psybolt Ammo are used
+ Great for clearing chaff
+ Ubiquitous and cheap
- Can only boost a single unit with psybolt
- Units used for alpha strike with psybolt lose firepower linearly, while units with heavy weapons can keep their damage output up longer if you remove the stormbolter models first.
- Will only get you that far
When to take:
- Unless you really can't spare that 2 points on the Librarian or that vehicle, pretty much always take these.
- You want to keep your close combat weapon on a non-terminator model.
When not to take:
- When you want to take a heavy weapon instead.
Ideal units:
10 man Strike Knight, Interceptor or Purifier squads with 10 stormbolters for Psybolt Ammo + Tide of Convergence barrages.
Psycannons: + Much better now with Tide of Convergence and the reduced point costs
+ Does more damage than a lascannon now with just Tide of Convergence active, so definitely a viable anti-tank weapon now. Gets only better with more buffs.
+ Benefits more from Tide of Convergence than psilencers because S7/8/9 is more meaningful against vehicles than S4/5/6, and gets double damage instead of 33% more.
+ In infantry heavy lists easy to spam due to almost every unit able to take 1-4 and not that expensive points wise.
- Still only 24" range, so you do need to get reasonably close, which can often lead to suffering the -1 to hit from moving.
- If Tide of Convergence isn't active it loses its shine very quickly.
When to take:
- You want to add some reliable anti-tank firepower to your infantry army for T6+ targets.
When not to take:
- You don't intend to use Tide of Convergence very often (or at all)
- You need to squeeze out those last few points
- You don't want to lose the melee weapon on non-terminator infantry.
- You want to take 10 stormbolters for Psybolt ammo
Ideal units:
To take on units you don't intend to buff up much beyond Tide of Convergence, like Paladin Ancients, Brother-Captains or that single heavy weapon in your Strike Knight squads you're mostly taking for filling your Battalion. But also works fine with 4 heavy weapons in Purgation Squads or Paladin bombs if most of your buffs are going elsewhere or are not needed.
Psilencers: + When Tide of Convergence is not available (e.g. when using GK as allies) or used, does more damage than psycannons
+ Gains more benefits from buffs like Bring down the Beast, and with the right buffs even outdamages psycannons with ToC
+ Cheap upgrade over stormbolters
+ Still not much worse than psycannons with ToC
+ In infantry heavy lists easy to spam due to almost every unit able to take 1-4 and cheap point cost.
- Those buffs are generally available only to help a single firing unit and/or a single target, and cost lots of CP or expensive characters
- Still only 24" range, so you do need to get reasonably close, which can often lead to suffering the -1 to hit from moving.
- The D3 damage makes it less reliable, can lead to overkill/wasted shots
When to take:
- You don't intend to use Tide of Convergence a lot (or at all)
- You want to have a unit you can buff up to deliver a devastating strike
- You want to shave off a few points to fit something you want over the extra damage of the psycannon
When not to take:
- You can spare a few more points for a psycannon and you're not going to buff this unit up beyond Tide of Convergence
- You don't want to lose the melee weapon on non-terminator infantry.
- You want to take 10 stormbolters for Psybolt ammo
Ideal units:
4 Heavy weapons in a Paladin Bomb or Purgator Squad that you buff with Tide of Convergence, Psychic Onslaught, Invocation of Focus and/or Bring Down the Beast for a single devestating barrage. But you probably don't want more than 1 or two of these units in your army list.
Lascannons + Still our best long ranged anti-tank weapon, with double the range of the psycannon and psilencer
+ Is impacted more by the re-roll a single roll stratagem than multishot weapons. Although this also works against it when the opponents rerolls a failed save
- More expensive
- Only available on vehicles
- Damage results are more swingy
When to take:
You want some long ranged firepower to plink away at enemy armour to open up the soft contents before they get into rapid fire and smite range.
When not to take:
You want more a little more bang for your buck and don't mind getting up close and personal.
Ideals units:
Venerable Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders, possibly hiding behind LOS breaking terrain and shooting stuff with Astral Aim.
Smite + Basically twice as good now with Tide of Escalation
- Still suffers from short range
When to take:
You're always taking this!
Ideal units:
Lots of MSU, so you get more smites. Add Brother-Captains to give them the much needed range.
Anything I missed?
greyknight12 wrote: Here’s a basic primer on math hammer for those interested:
And keep in mind that the average doesn't tell the whole story. For example, a weapon that does 100 mortal wounds once every 10 times you use it, and the other 9 times it does nothing, would technically have an average of 10 damage. But of course this would be very unreliable and if it does work, it has massive overkill. If point costs were the same, I'd rather have a weapon that does 8 damage every time you use it, even though the averages is lower.
Weapons will a depend largely on one or more rolls - like a lascannon because it has only one shot and D6 damage - will be much more 'swingy' in results than something that just throws a fistful of dice. The law of averages will be much more noticable there. But as a lot of people already seem to have trouble understanding simple things like averages, I'll not bore everyone with things like standard deviation and probablity distribution.
Hulksmash wrote: It does slightly beat out the psilencer against t7/t8 3+ in most scenarios on a gun for gun but for almost twice the points per equivalent damage (.32dpp vs .18dpp).
As was pointed out previously, comparing just the cost of the weapon isn't a very good comparison - you need to include the cost of the platform. Otherwise frag grenades would score a better dpp than any heavy weapon because they're 0 points. Infinite damage per point!
Take a 17 point Strike Knight (or Purgator or Purifier):
Strike Knight with Psycannon with ToC shooting at T7 3+
21 points for 1.779 damage = 0.085dpp
Strike Knight with Psilencer with ToC shooting at T7 3+
18 points for 1.333 damage = 0.074dpp
That's a ~15% increase of damage per point of the psycannon. And the more expensive the platform, the better the ratio becomes for the psycannon. On paladins this would be 0.036dpp for the psycannon to 0.029dpp for the psilincer; a ~25% dpp increase for the psycannon. And while you can buy 7 Strike Knights with psilencers for every 6 Strike Knights with psycannons, you must also not forget that - depending on the squad - you need to buy 1-4 models with stormbolters to be able to take that extra heavy weapon.
Hulksmash wrote: Personally I use the psilencer. I want the psycannon to be worth it but find that the even 12pts on my paladin squad makes a difference in fitting my puzzle piece if an army together. I've got 9 heavy weapon slots not on my dreadnought. That's only 27pts in difference BUT that allows me to not drop models and does the damage needed.
And that's a very valid reason. As shown above, the psycannon is a bit more points efficient when you have ToC, but not in a degree that it's a must-have. The psilencer certainly isn't an unviable weapon now, especially when taking in such a low number or when you don't use ToC. And I'd never go all-psycannon either, I'd probably always take at least one squad with psilencers.
Hulksmash wrote: Additionally when you think of 2 wound models with fnp (thanks ironhands) averaging 3 damage for everything that gets thru means more dead opponents than flat 2 damage.
Yeah, against infantry you want stormbolters and psilencers. Aim the psycannons at the T6+ targets.
Which is a good thing. It's good to have a discussion whether or not these few particular niches of the Psycannon outweigh the overall better Power Psilencers have?
I'm just loving that, for the first time since I started 40k, there's a legit debate as to which is better. It had always been very clearly one or the other in the past. Now, we have OPTIONS! I'm just loving it.
To get back on Tactics - One thing I'd like to add, that an Iron Hands player just taught me the hard way: Use the Paladin Bomb as early and aggressively as possible; situationally as needed, obviously.
I ended up saving my 10-man paly bomb for turn three, mostly due to my opponents extensive backfield coverage, and I regret it immensely.
By the time they came in most of my army was in shambles. Partly it was the fact that my IH opponent had 19 lascannons that ignored movement penalties, re-rolled 1's to hit and had an additional -1 AP due to Dev Doct; but I digress...(freaking IH...)...but I'm not too bitter about IH...>.<...
When I brought them in I dropped them on the center objective and now that I've experienced it I am a believer in how tough they actually can be.
At that point I was stuck in Tide of Shadow (dead characters couldn't change Tides), had Sanctuary cast on them and used both the Transhuman Strat and the -1 dmg Strat.
My opp fired just about every remaining gun in his army (~1700pts left by his turn 3 shooting) at them and still 1 out of the 10 survived with 2 wounds remaining.
My next game I'm going to try deploying the Paly Bomb on the board, in range of a Chaplain (Litany of Faith), cast Sanctuary on themselves and have a psyker use Armoured Resilience (-1 dmg) before one of my SS uses Gate on them. Get them up close and personal Turn 1.
1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.
3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)
HQs BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer
Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?
L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC
FA 10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves
2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)
T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.
T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)
T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).
One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.
Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).
The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.
Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)
List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.
Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).
I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)
MiguelFelstone wrote: I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.
I agree, and the stock BC can be tailored to your needs; not just SB/Sword.
His war gear options are just one of many reasons why he should be forgotten about.
As i said in another post
Stern is terrible, second only to Crowe for worst HQs in the army. His default war gear blows, you can't give him a hammer (+ heavy weapon), he doesn't have Rites of Banishment (that's a big deal) and his special rule is "special" in that "bless your heart" kind of way.
MiguelFelstone wrote: I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.
I agree. I'd rather a Champion than Stern to be frank. At least Stern is better than Crowe, but that's not saying much.
Pump the brakes! Crowe is a great chaff-clearing character. He's the bane of all big squads of T3 scrubs!
Crowe was bad before PA, and not having Rites of Banishment just makes him even worse. I can't see any reason to take him in any list, and i say that thinking the Techmarine wouldn't be too bad with the relic in a vehicle heavy list.
bananathug wrote: 1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.
3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)
HQs BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer
Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?
L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC
FA 10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves
2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)
T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.
T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)
T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).
One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.
Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).
The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.
Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)
List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.
Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).
I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)
You gotta find the points to give those 7x 5 mans psycannons. You just got to. Drop one of the strikes to 8 man and you've got enough points. Not ideal because you lose some stratagem buffing and anotther potential smite BUT you get 7x heavies which hit as hard as LC in tide of convergence.
Thought Crowe got a bump now that his Daemon Weapon counts as a "Nemesis" Weapon for the purposes of Tides. Last edition he suppressed the daemon and it only counted as a basic ccw.
Lord Clinto wrote: Thought Crowe got a bump now that his Daemon Weapon counts as a "Nemesis" Weapon for the purposes of Tides. Last edition he suppressed the daemon and it only counted as a basic ccw.
Yeah hes great in a tide you will most likely never use, seriously not having Rites of Banishment is huge (one of the reasons i'm thinking about dropping my relic Ancient).
bananathug wrote: 1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.
3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)
HQs BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer
Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?
L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC
FA 10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves
2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)
T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.
T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)
T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).
One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.
Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).
The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.
Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)
List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.
Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).
I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)
You gotta find the points to give those 7x 5 mans psycannons. You just got to. Drop one of the strikes to 8 man and you've got enough points. Not ideal because you lose some stratagem buffing and anotther potential smite BUT you get 7x heavies which hit as hard as LC in tide of convergence.
I wasn't going to reply to the OP but i feel compelled now.
I wouldn't suggest running anything more than the minimum number of Strikes (5man squads). Think about it, for 3 more points per model you could get a Strike that has 12" movement and can blink across the map in a true alpha strike. Both Interceptors and Purgation squads are only a couple of points more and vastly more powerful.
Drop Stern, see above.
Falchions have diminishing returns the more attacks you have (but good on Strikes), and your Brother Captain is a beast (2+ WS 5 attacks on the charge). Give him a hammer.
My suggestion for the points saved by cutting the Strikes is invest in Interceptors, it's pretty easy to just pop the backpack off them if you haven't magnetized them, i think going the maxed out combat squads route would be far more competitive. Interceptors are incredible now. This gives you ~30+ potential mortal wounds per round just in the psyker phase.
I would add under the melee weapon section anything with 2+ WS and multiple attacks should be wielding the thunder hammer that only costs 13 points (this includes the GMND)
Lord Clinto wrote: Thought Crowe got a bump now that his Daemon Weapon counts as a "Nemesis" Weapon for the purposes of Tides. Last edition he suppressed the daemon and it only counted as a basic ccw.
Yeah hes great in a tide you will most likely never use, seriously not having Rites of Banishment is huge (one of the reasons i'm thinking about dropping my relic Ancient).
bananathug wrote: 1997 points best theoretical list I can come up with. Help me out before I spend the next 3 months buying/painting this monstrosity. If anything looks dumb or too gimmicky or just wrong please don't hold back.
3x bats - 17 cp to start with (one extra relic, should get a couple extra CPs during the game so spending 4 cp t1, 8 cp t2 and 6 cp t3 I should be okay)
HQs BC-Stern - warp shaping
BC -falchions + psycannon - warp shaping (maybe drop for second chappy?)
Chappy - ethereal manip (guidance/projection/focus based on match-up)
Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?)
Libby (Nullifer matrix) - edict+armored resilience
Draigo - Sanct + hammer
Troops
2x 10 man Strikes (storm bolters, 2x warding staves - 8x halbreds)
7x 5 man strikes (storm bolters, 2x staves 3x halberds) - I'd love to squeeze some psi/psy in here but can't find the points.
Worth the hassle to source the halberds? Better load out?
L33ts
Venerable dread - astral + ML + TLC
FA 10 man inceptor squad - halbreds + staves
2x 10 man strikes, draigo and libbys start in DS (worth it to spend CP to DS interceptors depending on alpha of matchup/who goes first?)
T1 Hide and pray stuff survives If target presents throw the interceptors at a target of opportunity t1. If I need to alpha screens start a 10 man strike and GOI + shunt for enough bolters to kill any screens.
T2 libbys come down (unleash psychic hell), make sure I have 2x10 man storm bolter squads and put 40 psi-SB shots into something (psi shoot one in psychic phase, psi-shoot the other in the shooting phase), draigo DS to support and GOI chappy - have to break enemy on this turn or position well for a sneaky t3 (if t1 and t2 whiff I'm done though)
T3 Hopefully I've dealt enough damage to enemy between 24" smites, inner fire + vortex (3 turns of 15ish smites should clear most threats, especially after clearing a lot of chaff with all those storm bolter shots). GOI to objectives if I have to. Either I'm mopping up or trying to put some cagey scheme into motion here (haven't deep struck either of my 10 mans and maybe a character or two, GOI'ing into backfield, praying I've scored enough that when I get tabled in t4 my opponent can't come back).
One strike in the back to screen out the out of LOS ven dread.
Redundant sources of etheral manip and warp shaping just in case one of them gets snipped out or I screw up placement or something. Draigo + smites should take care of any large threats. I'm relying on the smites + libbies to do a lot of the heavy anti-armor lifting (eldar planes being the big bad but with IF running around I don't expect too many "vehicle" lists). With the insane +s to cast the libbies should be able to nuke stuff pretty easy (inner fire + vortex will cause problems).
The list looks really scary. Just the pure smites coming out will wreck whatever I can get in range of.
Not sure what powers to put on strike squads outside of one of each just to have them and then some GOI.
Not sure on the CqC loadout for the boys, I like the warding staves for the added CqC protection and they are cheap, not really relying on melee combat for killing stuff so figured 2 staves + halbreds are fine but if I could find the points could see the switch to falchions.
Out of LOS dread is mainly to kill TFCs and make sure I can pick up a kill 1 t1 by stripping the last couple wounds off of something trying to hide. Maybe I could change this out for something else (second 10 man interceptor squad?)
List seems rather fragile. Against the wrong opponent 65ish t4 marine bodies (regardless of -1 to hit and 2+ save) can be blown away before I get to my turn 2 but I'm not sure the paladin bomb adds much resilience to the list.
I think too many lists have the tech to kill the paladin bomb. You pretty much have to table me to kill all of my threats and even if you kill them after they land the 30 psi-storm bolter shots are pretty sure to get into position and wreck what they need to wreck.
Really relying on characters so out of LOS marine snipers scare me a bit (with a 1+ save and 5 wounds I should be okay for a round or two).
I can't think of a way to add more bodies. I think the offensive output between psi-storm bolters, d2 smites and libby powers will be crazy (can psi-storm bolter 2 10 man units with the edict power when they land t2, I don't know any screens that can eat 80 s5 ap-2 2d shots plus whatever my interceptor squad + rest of my army can put into them t1)
You gotta find the points to give those 7x 5 mans psycannons. You just got to. Drop one of the strikes to 8 man and you've got enough points. Not ideal because you lose some stratagem buffing and anotther potential smite BUT you get 7x heavies which hit as hard as LC in tide of convergence.
I wasn't going to reply to the OP but i feel compelled now.
I wouldn't suggest running anything more than the minimum number of Strikes (5man squads). Think about it, for 3 more points per model you could get a Strike that has 12" movement and can blink across the map in a true alpha strike. Both Interceptors and Purgation squads are only a couple of points more and vastly more powerful.
Drop Stern, see above.
Falchions have diminishing returns the more attacks you have (but good on Strikes), and your Brother Captain is a beast (2+ WS 5 attacks on the charge). Give him a hammer.
My suggestion for the points saved by cutting the Strikes is invest in Interceptors, it's pretty easy to just pop the backpack off them if you haven't magnetized them, i think going the maxed out combat squads route would be far more competitive. Interceptors are incredible now. This gives you ~30+ potential mortal wounds per round just in the psyker phase.
Yeah - strikes are just worse interceptors for the most part which give you more CP. I think 3 battalions is excessive also.
I'd drop a libby and 3 strike squads. Replace that with a 10 man interceptor / trade out stern for another BC with Psycannon and hammers on both of them.
Hulksmash wrote: My bad. I accept the oopsies I have created. My head got it stuck as a meh autocannon.
I could totally see why you would think that, but at least you have some humility, a lot of people on this forum would rather argue in circles than just admit they were wrong and move on.
Waking Dreamer wrote: "Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
It only says you can't generate powers from both disciplines, no problems with casting them if you know them. The Lore Master trait states that the character simply 'knows' one more Santic power, just like how psykers automatically 'know' Smite, so no conflicting language or anything. IFAIK you can elect the order of things happening 'before the battle' so no issues there either.
Its up in the air at best I'd say, needs FAQ. To be honest allowing an extra Dominus power seems in direct conflict with the working of the WL Trait, but I guess no worries if everyone's happy to play it like that.
Waking Dreamer wrote: "Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
Edit: side note i've found the Apothacary to be the best choice for Inner Fire, hes less than 80 points, can heal himself after taking mortal wounds from Inner Fire, and is the perfect unit to burn with Dynamic Insertion and or Powerful Adept, giving you a cheap tactical nuke.
MiguelFelstone wrote: I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
It only says you can't generate powers from both disciplines, no problems with casting them if you know them. The Lore Master trait states that the character simply 'knows' one more Santic power, just like how psykers automatically 'know' Smite, so no conflicting language or anything. IFAIK you can elect the order of things happening 'before the battle' so no issues there either.
Its up in the air at best I'd say, needs FAQ. To be honest allowing an extra Dominus power seems in direct conflict with the working of the WL Trait, but I guess no worries if everyone's happy to play it like that.
The terms "know" and "generate" is interchangeable and thus bound by the same restrictions.
Every datasheet for a GK psyker has this:
"It knows the Smite psychic power and [one/two/three] psychic power from the Sanctic discipline."
^ It doesn't really matter that it states that they already "know" one/two/three psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. Before the start of the game you still have to "generate" every single Sanctic discipline power you want them to cast. Knowing a Sanctic psychic power as said in ALL their datasheets is no different as knowing an extra psychic power from Sanctic as said in the WL trait. Before you start the game, as soon as you CHOOSE a Sanctic power for the WL with Lore-master - you are generating that psychic power from that discipline. As you have always done for every single GK psyker unit, the WL trait never bypasses this process.
In regards to the new psychic rules it explicitly states:
"...(they cannot generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline)."
^ A GK character knowing powers from two different disciplines is exactly the same a generating powers from two different disciplines. And thus illegal.
In regards to Smite, that power doesn't actually belong to a different psychic discipline does it? It's inherent of being a psyker, so I wouldn't use it as an example to piggyback bypassing / breaking the rule. Because Smite doesn't do either.
Waking Dreamer wrote: The terms "know" and "generate" is interchangeable and thus bound by the same restrictions.
Honest question because i'd like to know, did you just pull this out of your butt or is this established somewhere? Granted i've only been playing 8th for so long i've never seen anything that supports the above (the rest of your argument is based on this assumption).
Waking Dreamer wrote: The terms "know" and "generate" is interchangeable and thus bound by the same restrictions.
Honest question because i'd like to know, did you just pull this out of your butt or is this established somewhere? Granted i've only been playing 8th for so long i've never seen anything that supports the above (the rest of your argument is based on this assumption).
It was already thoroughly explained in the same post:
"It knows the Smite psychic power and [one/two/three] psychic power from the Sanctic discipline."
^ It doesn't really matter that it states that they already "know" one/two/three psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. Before the start of the game you still have to "generate" every single Sanctic discipline power you want them to cast. Knowing a Sanctic psychic power as said in ALL their datasheets is no different as knowing an extra psychic power from Sanctic as said in the WL trait. Before you start the game, as soon as you CHOOSE a Sanctic power for the WL with Lore-master - you are generating that psychic power from that discipline. As you have always done for every single GK psyker unit, the WL trait never bypasses this process.
^ Which part of this do you not understand exactly?
Do you not understand that when a GK datasheet says the psyker knows one psychic power from the Sanctic discipline - that before it can cast a psychic power from the Sanctic discipline in the game...you STILL have to generate that psychic power at the beginning of the game.
Do you not understand that in choosing and telling your opponent that your GK psyker unit has a psychic power, from either the Dominus or Sanctic discipline...that you are in fact automatically generating that psychic power for that unit to use in the game?
When your opponent asks you at the beginning of the game:
---------------
"So how many psychic powers does you GK Psyker know?"
GK player: "It knows two powers from the Sanctic Discipline."
"Cool. Okay so what are they?"
GK player: "It knows the Sanctuary and Gate of infinity" powers. ------------------
^ Do you not understand, that even though in that entire conversation NO ONE mentions the term "generate", that the GK player has inherently generated psychic powers from the Sactic discipline for his GK model?
I'll try to simplify it one more step:
A GK psyker unit cannot ever cast a particular psychic power from GK psychic discipline - without that particular GK psychic power needing to be FIRST generated for them to use/cast.
Hulksmash wrote: Pretty sure in the sm book a similar relic allows for a person to know spells from a different discipline. Could be wrong again though.
Yes, Tome of Malcador.
From the Spring FAQ
Q: If a Librarian in Phobos Armour has the Tome of Malcador Relic, does he know one additional power from the Librarius discipline or from the Obscuration discipline?
A: They know one additional power from the Librarius discipline.
I'm sure this will be FAQd soon as well to clear up any confusion.
Waking Dreamer wrote: "Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
Edit: side note i've found the Apothacary to be the best choice for Inner Fire, hes less than 80 points, can heal himself after taking mortal wounds from Inner Fire, and is the perfect unit to burn with Dynamic Insertion and or Powerful Adept, giving you a cheap tactical nuke.
Waking Dreamer wrote: "Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
Edit: side note i've found the Apothacary to be the best choice for Inner Fire, hes less than 80 points, can heal himself after taking mortal wounds from Inner Fire, and is the perfect unit to burn with Dynamic Insertion and or Powerful Adept, giving you a cheap tactical nuke.
Waking Dreamer wrote: "Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
Edit: side note i've found the Apothacary to be the best choice for Inner Fire, hes less than 80 points, can heal himself after taking mortal wounds from Inner Fire, and is the perfect unit to burn with Dynamic Insertion and or Powerful Adept, giving you a cheap tactical nuke.
Wait, how many powers does the Ancient know?
One.
Darn. Banner of Flame + Inner Fire would've been super cool.
Waking Dreamer wrote: "Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
Edit: side note i've found the Apothacary to be the best choice for Inner Fire, hes less than 80 points, can heal himself after taking mortal wounds from Inner Fire, and is the perfect unit to burn with Dynamic Insertion and or Powerful Adept, giving you a cheap tactical nuke.
Wait, how many powers does the Ancient know?
One.
Darn. Banner of Flame + Inner Fire would've been super cool.
Seems like a waste of a relic slot / CP considering what we got in PA. 3.5 mortal wounds on avg is slightly better than super smite (at least it's consistent). Although the heavy weapons are nice, but you trade that for self healing and support for units like my Highlander Paladins. I was seriously thinking about running 2 Apothecaries, keep one in DS until the first pops or drop him to steal an objective late game (he could easily kill a squad of Scouts or even Primaris Marines with a little luck).
Waking Dreamer wrote: "Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
Edit: side note i've found the Apothacary to be the best choice for Inner Fire, hes less than 80 points, can heal himself after taking mortal wounds from Inner Fire, and is the perfect unit to burn with Dynamic Insertion and or Powerful Adept, giving you a cheap tactical nuke.
Wait, how many powers does the Ancient know?
One.
Darn. Banner of Flame + Inner Fire would've been super cool.
Seems like a waste of a relic slot / CP considering what we got in PA. 3.5 mortal wounds on avg is slightly better than super smite (at least it's consistent). Although the heavy weapons are nice, but you trade that for self healing and support for units like my Highlander Paladins. I was seriously thinking about running 2 Apothecaries, keep one in DS until the first pops or drop him to steal an objective late game (he could easily kill a squad of Scouts or even Primaris Marines with a little luck).
I think that the apothecary is better used as a pseudo cheap smash captain to deep strike with the paladins to try to heal some, or just to keep in countercharge in your deployment zone meanwhile holding objective perhaps as an extra body with the power to change tides or to generate CP. imao the main selling point is that is cheap, might have a dominus power, hit like a train in cc and can heal himself.
Fo psychic bomb I think that the best that we can bring now is the combo of bro captain with inner fire + banner with relic + Libby with purge should and vortex of doom and the relic to give+-1 to cast to nearby GK. Dynamic insert bro captain, cast purge soul with Libby and use the stat to give +1 to cast no nearby units, cast vortex of doom, extend the cast of inner fire with 6 inches and use psychic channeling for inner fire and unleash the rest. The problem is that is 3 CP + 1CP for potential rerolls plus expose 3 characters. But the number of delivered MW could be quite fun.
MiguelFelstone wrote:I don't know why people keep putting Stern in, he is absolutely terrible, you'd be much better off with a stock Brother Captain.
Yeah, if a special character is cheaper than his generic counterpart with the same wargear, you just know his special rules have to suck.
Homeskillet wrote:Pump the brakes! Crowe is a great chaff-clearing character. He's the bane of all big squads of T3 scrubs!
He's ok at clearing chaff, but he mostly needs close combat or really short ranged psychic powers to do that. By the time you hit close combat you generally already want to have cleared chaff. And with all those storm bolters in a GK army, do we really have that much trouble clearing chaff anyway that we need a dedicated character to do it?
MiguelFelstone wrote:
Hulksmash wrote: Cant do it. Banner removes Rites so you cant do the increased range.
Yup, hes not very good post PA, neither is Stern or Crowe for the same reason.
Well the Banner of Refining Flame still does D6 damage, it just doesn't get the +1MW with ToE. It's not that D6MW is suddenly bad or anything. But he's not a good target to use with Inner Fire no.
Waking Dreamer wrote:"Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
I guess it depends on the order of events. Both selecting a Warlord Trait and generating powers are done before battle, so AFAIK you can determine the order of operations (although I couldn't find a rules quote on this, but also none that specify a certain order).
Ritual of the Damned says:
Instead of generating psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline, a GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER model can generate an equivalent number of psychic powers from the Dominus discipline (they cannot generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline).
Take a GK Librarian: his datasheet says he knows the Smite psychic power and two psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. If you give him the Lore Master trait, he now knows 3 Sanctic powers. Then you go and generate powers, and you can choose to generate an equivalent number of powers from the Dominus discipline, so you generate 3 Dominus powers.
But yes, definitely needs a FAQ/errata. The Tome of Malcador relic is different, because a Phobos Librarian doesn't technicaly have a rule that they cannot generate from both Librarius and Obscuration; they just normally can't generate from Librarius at all.
Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.
I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2
- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4
Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.
Sanctic Shard: When a Psychic test is taken for a model with this Relic, you can re-roll the result. Add 1 to the total for Psychic tests taken for a model with this relic.
• Rating: 3/5
This is the best psyker relic in the game, and they gave it to arguably the best psyker army in 40k. It's an auto include regardless of what type of list your running.
You gave the same rating to the Techmarine relic FFS.
MiguelFelstone wrote: This is the best psyker relic in the game, and they gave it to arguably the best psyker army in 40k. It's an auto include regardless of what type of list your running.
You gave the same rating to the Techmarine relic FFS.
It's awesome for avoiding Perils, it's awesome for Vortex/Inner Fire, and just overall getting powers to go off!
Sterling191 wrote: Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.
He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2
- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4
Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.
I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.
14 Feels fine. I run 2 batts and a vanguard detachment. Even with the pally unit it's relatively easy to have cp for what you need. Given that 14 is really 19-20 assuming you don't let your CP generator get sniped.
Generally I'm going down 1-2cp per turn after the generated one. Might end up with 3-4 used in turn 2/3. That still leaves a few for defensive or random strats/rerolls that might be useful.
Sanctic Shard: When a Psychic test is taken for a model with this Relic, you can re-roll the result. Add 1 to the total for Psychic tests taken for a model with this relic.
• Rating: 3/5
This is the best psyker relic in the game, and they gave it to arguably the best psyker army in 40k. It's an auto include regardless of what type of list your running.
You gave the same rating to the Techmarine relic FFS.
True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.
The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.
New iteration of the list I think I'm going with:
2x bats - 1x outrider comes in a 2k exactly (so satisfying)
HQs 2x BCs with hammers and psycannons (warp shaping, Emp Domi)
chapy (ethereal manip)
Libby (nulfier matrix, edict + inner fire/ethereal/armored?)
Draigo (hammerhand + ?? or armored + ???)
Troops
6x - 5 mans with psycannons halberds and staves (GOI, sanct)
FA 9 man with falchions (sanct)
2x 10 man with halberds + staves (goi)
I think I'm going to wait for the PAFAQ (for the 2 disciplines for the libby) and CA 2019 FAQ (if that ever comes out) before I go full bore buying this thing but it seems like it would be really fun to play, give tactical options vs most lists and not be iron hands.
Still worried about CP being tight and getting blown off the board t2. If anyone has experience piloting anything like this and can talk me off my hype-train let me know.
True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.
The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.
Keep the interceptors hidden in your backfield and organize a massive strike in t2 via shunting, deep striking and goi.
Arriving in pieces will blow your army apart too easily.
True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.
The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.
Keep the interceptors hidden in your backfield and organize a massive strike in t2 via shunting, deep striking and goi.
Arriving in pieces will blow your army apart too easily.
100%. One of the most important lessons to learn as a Grey Knights player is coordinating your Strike. You could potentially pull off a powerful alpha strike by using Gate of Infinity on say a GMNDK and shunting the interceptors. However, this type of attack is usually better in Turn 2-3.
Grey Knights excel at killing screens, let's say you can get the interceptors, purgation squad, or paladins/termies into a position where they can blow up a vital screen. You can put 2 GMNDKs into deep strike, along with a number of powerful characters and strike squads to come down in the clearing, gate a pally squad, and shunt the interceptors. Now you've got 5-6 powerful units for 10MWs, powerful shooting, and ideally re-roll charges to really get into the heart of your opponent.
In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.
Sterling191 wrote: Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.
He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2
- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4
Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.
I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.
Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.
True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.
The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.
Keep the interceptors hidden in your backfield and organize a massive strike in t2 via shunting, deep striking and goi.
Arriving in pieces will blow your army apart too easily.
100%. One of the most important lessons to learn as a Grey Knights player is coordinating your Strike. You could potentially pull off a powerful alpha strike by using Gate of Infinity on say a GMNDK and shunting the interceptors. However, this type of attack is usually better in Turn 2-3.
Grey Knights excel at killing screens, let's say you can get the interceptors, purgation squad, or paladins/termies into a position where they can blow up a vital screen. You can put 2 GMNDKs into deep strike, along with a number of powerful characters and strike squads to come down in the clearing, gate a pally squad, and shunt the interceptors. Now you've got 5-6 powerful units for 10MWs, powerful shooting, and ideally re-roll charges to really get into the heart of your opponent.
In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.
My game plan with GK in recent games (before the release of the new rules) was to keep the 3 Interceptor squads and the Paladin squad as hidden as possible in the backfield.
The enemy concentrated on the 3 Dreads w/ dual twin autocannons backed up by 2 Techmarines.
In t2, the Interceptors (via shunt) and the Paladins (via gate) moved into position, while the three Strike squads and the two GMNDK's arrived via deep strike.
True, jumping 2x 10 man interceptors into an opponents face T1 will remove all the screens, make them kill those 10 mans and open up the juicy guts to the smites from the rest of your army.
The shooting is much stronger with the support units you can drop in t2 but the interceptors don't have to shunt up t1. Its just trying to figure if the extra flexibility of additional interceptor units is worth 4 CP.
Keep the interceptors hidden in your backfield and organize a massive strike in t2 via shunting, deep striking and goi.
Arriving in pieces will blow your army apart too easily.
100%. One of the most important lessons to learn as a Grey Knights player is coordinating your Strike. You could potentially pull off a powerful alpha strike by using Gate of Infinity on say a GMNDK and shunting the interceptors. However, this type of attack is usually better in Turn 2-3.
Grey Knights excel at killing screens, let's say you can get the interceptors, purgation squad, or paladins/termies into a position where they can blow up a vital screen. You can put 2 GMNDKs into deep strike, along with a number of powerful characters and strike squads to come down in the clearing, gate a pally squad, and shunt the interceptors. Now you've got 5-6 powerful units for 10MWs, powerful shooting, and ideally re-roll charges to really get into the heart of your opponent.
In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.
My game plan with GK in recent games (before the release of the new rules) was to keep the 3 Interceptor squads and the Paladin squad as hidden as possible in the backfield.
The enemy concentrated on the 3 Dreads w/ dual twin autocannons backed up by 2 Techmarines.
In t2, the Interceptors (via shunt) and the Paladins (via gate) moved into position, while the three Strike squads and the two GMNDK's arrived via deep strike.
In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.
With Edict Imperator and interceptor is possible to do a powerful beta strike that creates a deep hole in an enemy castle. Shunt interceptor in the movement face and deep strike a character close to them to cast edict imperator in the interceptors in the psychic phase. Shoot 40 storm bolter rounds, potentially with psi bolt ammo. Leave a hole on the enemy screen. Now Gate forward a second unit in the no available space leave by this hole and use the shooting phase potentially getting in a threating position for the support units.
Fun fact is that the first time shooting was in the psychic phase and the second time will be the shooting phase so technically it should be legal to use psi bolt ammo a second time as a different phase. This means that in the shooty tide it should be technically possible to do a whooping 80 storm bolter shoots S6 -1 AP 2 damage Where 40 of them will bypass at least the first screen layer.
I've tried to do the hide everything until T2 before with deathwatch and it has just allowed my opponent to get too big of a lead and control too much of the board (effectively dictating where I can land t2). Removing a key unit or two, setting up a trap or dictating where you enemy has to move in order to deal with a threat are such important tools that are often worth sacrificing a unit (which is why I like interceptors and strikes better than termies)
I always found more success in having the ability to get a squad up the board and creating a threat (while removing a threat) to be able to dictate where the enemy needs to focus their response. Being able to astral aim on a interceptor squad shunting up the board means nothing is safe that is w/in 14" of your screen (counts as standing still strat means 40 psi-bolter shots with no cover killing something important).
But that threat requires a significant CP investment which is why I'm waffling back towards the triple bat (I can't make a brig work for the life of me). But often will let you trade that unit for something more valuable of your opponents (pretty much anything without character protection).
GK opens up so many options for scalpel game play and is really fluffy. The spells + strats allow the army to hit so hard and so fast that you get to dictate a lot of what your opponent has to do in response and putting that pressure on people is such a fun experience. Battle plans and strategy really impact how the game goes, playing closer to GSC than marines.
Heck, GOI on a 10 man strike maybe better than shunting for T1 because you can buff up the strike in the psychic, send them on their way with an invlun and -1 to be wounded in cover and your opponent will probably have to spend a lot of resources to clear them out instead of setting up chaff to eat all of the smites coming their way.
There are so many toys to play with using pretty basic building blocks that it just seems like an exciting army to play (at least until they break it in 9th edition once I get it all painted and ready...)
Sterling191 wrote: Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.
He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2
- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4
Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.
I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.
Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.
Heros that can't fall back and charge. AKA all of them except a few will be wasting a round of combat by not staying in with him and he survives well enough. Plus he does do some damage - Sometimes just forcing lots of saves is what you want anyways and he does that well.
Sterling191 wrote: Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.
He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2
- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4
Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.
I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.
Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.
Heros that can't fall back and charge. AKA all of them except a few will be wasting a round of combat by not staying in with him and he survives well enough. Plus he does do some damage - Sometimes just forcing lots of saves is what you want anyways and he does that well.
Anything that is going to be charging him will have a 2+ or a FNP equivalent, really. And if they decide to stay if he charged first? Well he still dies...
In thinking of my overall battle-plan for GK, it's likely going to be cagey play of getting Paladins into a nice LOS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board for board control. I'll buff and use astral aim to really control the board. Additionally, using Edict Imperator on a GMNDK to give me two sources of damage output that can minimize the amount of firepower they take in return. It'll be a slow burn and game of attrition but I want to whittle down my enemy for 3 turns before starting to come down or committing to try and win on hold more and bonus points in the mid-game/late game.
With Edict Imperator and interceptor is possible to do a powerful beta strike that creates a deep hole in an enemy castle. Shunt interceptor in the movement face and deep strike a character close to them to cast edict imperator in the interceptors in the psychic phase. Shoot 40 storm bolter rounds, potentially with psi bolt ammo. Leave a hole on the enemy screen. Now Gate forward a second unit in the no available space leave by this hole and use the shooting phase potentially getting in a threating position for the support units.
Fun fact is that the first time shooting was in the psychic phase and the second time will be the shooting phase so technically it should be legal to use psi bolt ammo a second time as a different phase. This means that in the shooty tide it should be technically possible to do a whooping 80 storm bolter shoots S6 -1 AP 2 damage Where 40 of them will bypass at least the first screen layer.
Very interesting idea. It'll be important to gauge the value of the target. You could be trading 400 points of Interceptors for a screen and one valuable unit.
Sterling191 wrote: Im actually a big fan of Crowe. At 80 points for a 2/1 caster (with Character so he can access Dominus), character protection, a flat d6 smite, baked in full reroll to hit and wound he's an amusingly cheap slot filler and close in deterrent. He's not by any means a linchipin unit, but treat him right and he'll do serious work for you. I tend to run him as a wingman/bodyguard for a BroCap so he can work the 6" smite bubble.
He is pretty good because he is cheap and gets a lot out of those 80 points. Certain units have just an invune save anyways so lacking AP is not a big deal. 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure if dropping the 3rd battalion is worth it. Running the numbers in my head I could easily use 8-10 CP just on turn 2
- 2x psybolt (in psychic phase and then in shooting phase) + steady advance (if I need to reach out more than 12") maybe - 5
- dynamic insertion + powerful adept + surge + maybe channeling for inner fire bomb - 4
Seems worth it if I'm sitting on 17 regening a couple but with only 13 (2x bats plus something) I think that really limits what else the army can do. Without triple bat I'm not sure trying to plan an inner-fire bomb is worth it.
I came up with a very similar list for spamming CP. I think it's viable but with a 2x bat 1x Outrider you get a lot more front loaded damage from interceptors and save a lot of points on a 6th HQ. I figured it works out better but you could try it both ways. I have been unable to test it.
Crowe isn't stopping heroes from escaping. They just leave and then he dies. He doesn't do melee damage, and any chaff clearing we have both Storm Bolters and Psilencers.
Heros that can't fall back and charge. AKA all of them except a few will be wasting a round of combat by not staying in with him and he survives well enough. Plus he does do some damage - Sometimes just forcing lots of saves is what you want anyways and he does that well.
Anything that is going to be charging him will have a 2+ or a FNP equivalent, really. And if they decide to stay if he charged first? Well he still dies...
Most heros don't have a 2+ actually. FNP is also pretty rare. Whats not rare on heros? 3++ saves and 4++ saves. Crowe is just as survivable as anything hes going up against usually. Plus he fights when he dies automatically.
For example...a Gravis captain or Primaris captain. He averages over 5 wounds if he touches a grav captain because hes gonna fight twice that round no matter what. He averages 6 wounds to a primaris captain in 2 rounds. This is pretty good considering he casts 2 powers and also have an auto d6 smite. Also - sometimes just forcing a player to roll 8-10 saves on a 3+ can make magic happen. Where a few thunder hammer wounds can be negated by a 4++ save and a command reroll. He's not great admittedly but not nearly as bad as anyone makes him out to be. 2 powers for 80 points on it's own is pretty awesome.
Xenomancers wrote: 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.
Xenomancers wrote: 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.
Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd even rather take Purifiers and I hate those with a burning passion.
Xenomancers wrote: 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.
Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.
Squigbuggies are better than they used to be, but yeah i digress.
Back to Crowe, it's a real shame because hes one of my favorite figures narratively speaking, The Black Blade should really have been given more prominence in-game because it's terrible on the table top.
Xenomancers wrote: 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.
Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd even rather take Purifiers and I hate those with a burning passion.
Squig buggies are one of the best shooting units in the game. So you are wrong in 2 ways...You can't beat my argument with a real argument because it's backed up with mathematical fact so you move the goal posts trying to make me look like an idiot. If that method of argument was effective I could just bring up the fact that you thought BS 2+ and and ws 2+ would fix terminators when obviously their issue as always has been durability. Since that isn't good practice or argument I don't do that though. Plus - think people with even a small amount of intelligence can surmise that I speak in Jest a lot. Melee damage is special - it takes away the shooting of an infantry unit and crowe survives better than a strike sqaud for about the same cost - he just does his damage in melee where if he survive will nearly double the smite power the next turn as well as an additional cast because he has 2 power. Seriously. Compare him to a libby...They have the same save and wounds except crowe has a 4++ - he moves faster and a Libby has less attacks with a crappy stave unless you wanna dump more point into him. Sure a libby can take relics which is probably better than crowe but they also cost more. I'm not claiming he is amazing but he certainly has a use. D6 smite is not to be underestimated even if it only has 3" range (likely 6" because who isn't taking multiple bro champs.)
Xenomancers wrote: 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.
Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.
Squigbuggies are better than they used to be, but yeah i digress.
Back to Crowe, it's a real shame because hes one of my favorite figures narratively speaking, The Black Blade should really have been given more prominence in-game because it's terrible on the table top.
I wish he was better too. He used to be an elite duelist. Now he is just a bargain buy. That isn't what he should be - it's still not bad though.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.
Flamers as a deterrent has never really worked for me, so many things that want to charge you can ignore overwatch now that I find it gets wasted a lot. Plus, the incinerators are overcosted and you give up the chance of taking the better heavy weapons by taking them.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The Incinerator Paladin bomb would at least discourage people from charging them, what with 14 S6 AP1 auto hits on average in overwatch from the Incinerators alone. It creates a giant headache for the enemy that they have to deal with. The footprint of 10 40mm bases might be more than a little limiting though. I'd guess Inner Fire suicide bombers to kill Characters would be a more worthwhile use of Dynamic Insertion.
Flamers as a deterrent has never really worked for me, so many things that want to charge you can ignore overwatch now that I find it gets wasted a lot. Plus, the incinerators are overcosted and you give up the chance of taking the better heavy weapons by taking them.
Waking Dreamer wrote:"Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
Ritual of the Damned says:
Instead of generating psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline, a GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER model can generate an equivalent number of psychic powers from the Dominus discipline (they cannot generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline).
Take a GK Librarian: his datasheet says he knows the Smite psychic power and two psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. If you give him the Lore Master trait, he now knows 3 Sanctic powers. Then you go and generate powers, and you can choose to generate an equivalent number of powers from the Dominus discipline, so you generate 3 Dominus powers.
But yes, definitely needs a FAQ/errata. The Tome of Malcador relic is different, because a Phobos Librarian doesn't technicaly have a rule that they cannot generate from both Librarius and Obscuration; they just normally can't generate from Librarius at all.
Nice. This is exactly how my group has been playing it, and there are quite a few GK players actively using it.
The best thing about this, is that it doesn't break any of the rules written - which IS AWESOME!
A FAQ will be needed for those who still disagree.
Excellent point about the SM relic. There are definitely clear difference between the two.
Xenomancers wrote: 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.
Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd even rather take Purifiers and I hate those with a burning passion.
Squig buggies are one of the best shooting units in the game. So you are wrong in 2 ways...You can't beat my argument with a real argument because it's backed up with mathematical fact so you move the goal posts trying to make me look like an idiot. If that method of argument was effective I could just bring up the fact that you thought BS 2+ and and ws 2+ would fix terminators when obviously their issue as always has been durability. Since that isn't good practice or argument I don't do that though. Plus - think people with even a small amount of intelligence can surmise that I speak in Jest a lot. Melee damage is special - it takes away the shooting of an infantry unit and crowe survives better than a strike sqaud for about the same cost - he just does his damage in melee where if he survive will nearly double the smite power the next turn as well as an additional cast because he has 2 power. Seriously. Compare him to a libby...They have the same save and wounds except crowe has a 4++ - he moves faster and a Libby has less attacks with a crappy stave unless you wanna dump more point into him. Sure a libby can take relics which is probably better than crowe but they also cost more. I'm not claiming he is amazing but he certainly has a use. D6 smite is not to be underestimated even if it only has 3" range (likely 6" because who isn't taking multiple bro champs.)
Xenomancers wrote: 1 Damage attacks is a big deal but with full rerolls and great saves you can tie up certain heros for a round then blast them in the face with a d6 smite.
Just think about it from a points perspective. 3" D6 smite or a 24" 2DMG smite on a unit thats actually useful (Interceptors / Purges). Do you really need more more S4 0AP attacks? Rerolls or not that's what Stormbolters are for, and we have quite a few. Hes terrible, objectively speaking.
Just remember Xeno is the person that thinks Squigbuggies are some of the best shooting in the game.
Squigbuggies are better than they used to be, but yeah i digress.
Back to Crowe, it's a real shame because hes one of my favorite figures narratively speaking, The Black Blade should really have been given more prominence in-game because it's terrible on the table top.
I wish he was better too. He used to be an elite duelist. Now he is just a bargain buy. That isn't what he should be - it's still not bad though.
Except the problem is not durability for Terminators. They become much more durable to more weapons than the weapons they lost durability to. I've provided a list before showing that and you cannot seen to comprehend that, meanwhile the fix I proposed makes them more independent from rerolls and provides a solid defense against negative modifiers. I've said once and I'll say it again: if you want durability buy Centurions. Terminators should fill a different niche, which is elite shock trooper. You're not an idiot, but you're clearly not 40k inclined.
That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).
Some of you all are forgetting core rules and stuff from the FAQ
>>cut and paste from the FAQ<<
The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in and consolidate? A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it can pile in and consolidate.
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic powersuch as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.
you can not deep strike a unit and then use Edict Imperator
in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round
you also can not use Gate of Infinity followed by Edict Imperator... however.. you could do Edict Imperator FIRST followed by Gate of Infinity
also, all of that being said, you can still use Edict Imperator AFTER a deep strike / gate of infinity / teleport shunt... it allows you to SHOOT still, but you still can NOT make a MOVE after.. per the FAQ and Designers commentary regarding units placed as reinforcements
Gunrunner1775 wrote: in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round
A quote directly from GW.
"Could you clarify if abilities and stratagems used after the initial deployment on the 1st turn t that remove a unit of the table and allow us to place again such as Gate of Infinity are usable according to the new tactical reserves rule?"
"You can indeed - those units have started the game deployed on the battlefield and can benefit from psychic powers such as Gate of Infinity and Da Jump."
Not sure if this applies solely to the psyker phase or not, we need a FAQ for clarity.
here is the entire cut and paste from the April Commentary
(RE)SETTING UP MODELS There are several abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers that let players remove a unit from the battlefield and then set it back up in a different location, but these rules are causing some confusion. The confusion is partly because it is not clear whether or not any effects that applied to the unit before it is removed from the battlefield continue to apply when it is set back up, and also because the wording of this rule is sometimes written as these units being set up ‘as if they were reinforcements’, even though they are technically on the battlefield already.
The intent of the ‘as if they were reinforcements’ wording was to try and make it clear that the units had counted as moving for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons, and that they can’t move further again this turn (other than to charge, pile in or consolidate) – after all, these units have potentially been displaced across the entire length of the battlefield already. This wording was also used to try and make it clear that such units would trigger other abilities or Stratagems, such as Auspex Scans and Early Warning Overrides, that are used when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements – our feeling was that it shouldn’t make a difference as to the whether a unit teleported onto the battlefield from an orbiting spacecraft or from over the next hill.
To clarify how these abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers work, we are adding the following FAQ to the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, which is preprinted here for convenience:
WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE – APRIL 2019
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?
A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:
1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.
2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.
3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to pile in, or to consolidate.
4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back when it is set back up on the battlefield.
5. If that unit has Advanced during this turn, it still counts as having Advanced after it has been set back up on the battlefield.
6. Any destroyed models in that unit when it is removed are still destroyed when their unit is set back up on the battlefield. If they were destroyed during this turn, they still count towards any Morale tests taken for that unit this turn.
7. Any models in that unit that have lost any wounds do not regain those wounds when they are removed, and will still have lost them when their unit is set back up on the battlefield.
8. Any rules that unit was being affected by when it was removed, and which would continue to affect it for a specific duration (from abilities, Stratagems, psychic powers, etc.), continue to affect that unit until such a point as they would normally have no longer applied. For example, a unit that was within range of an aura ability when it was removed would no longer be affected by that ability if it was set up outside of that aura’s range, whereas a unit that was being affected by a psychic power that lasted until the end of that turn would still be affected by it until the end of that turn.
Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the Sustained Assault rule, any unit that has been added to your army during the battle and has been set up (such as those added via the Daemonic Ritual ability), or units set up via any of the following Stratagems: Fresh Converts (see Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus), Tide of Traitors (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines), Unstoppable Green Tide (see Codex: Orks), More Where They Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), Send in the Next Wave (Codex: Astra Militarum), and Endless Swarm (Codex: Tyranids). These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units being repositioned on the battlefield.
Gunrunner1775 wrote: in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round
A quote directly from GW.
"Could you clarify if abilities and stratagems used after the initial deployment on the 1st turn t that remove a unit of the table and allow us to place again such as Gate of Infinity are usable according to the new tactical reserves rule?"
"You can indeed - those units have started the game deployed on the battlefield and can benefit from psychic powers such as Gate of Infinity and Da Jump."
Not sure if this applies solely to the psyker phase or not, we need a FAQ for clarity.
yes, can still use those powers ect
but the moment you do so, the moment you place them, the rules for "reinforcements" apply, thus allowing things like being shot at by auspex scan.. and the restriction that you can not move again after being placed, except to charge ect as posted above
thus the conflict between things like teleport shunt or gate of infinity working with the psy power Edict Imperator allowing you to shoot and then move... you can still use Edict Imperator after a shunt or gate or deep strike.. use it for the purpose of fireing weapons upon landing, but the core rule mechanic will negate your ability to move after
Gunrunner1775 wrote: in addition per the april commentary, units that are removed from the board and then set up again (i.e. interceptors useing shunt) is also considered for the rules of reinforcements and thus can not use shunt and then Edict Imperator in the same round
A quote directly from GW.
"Could you clarify if abilities and stratagems used after the initial deployment on the 1st turn t that remove a unit of the table and allow us to place again such as Gate of Infinity are usable according to the new tactical reserves rule?"
"You can indeed - those units have started the game deployed on the battlefield and can benefit from psychic powers such as Gate of Infinity and Da Jump."
Not sure if this applies solely to the psyker phase or not, we need a FAQ for clarity.
Yeah, what Gunrunner1775 said. That FAQ is so you can use abilities like Gate of Infinity or Teleport Shunt in the first turn without invalidating the Tactical Reserves rule. But you cannot move under any circumstances after coming from reserves or using such an ability until the Charge phase.
I would guess yes since they "can" move and not "must" move. I feel like these are the types of questions that should be resolved in a FAQ since they seem to literally be frequently asked questions and not fixes to typos and other screw ups.
FAQ is scheduled for next weekend right (not that the schedule really means anything)?
That shunting/deepstriking, edicting and then GOI'ing into position is sooooo dirty - I love it
That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).
Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.
That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).
Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.
Hes not a bargain anything. Librarians know 2 spells, he knows 1, he also can't wield a hammer and, can't deep strike, and he doesn't have access to the Librarian only relic.
That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).
Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.
Hes not a bargain anything. Librarians know 2 spells, he knows 1, he also can't wield a hammer and, can't deep strike, and he doesn't have access to the Librarian only relic.
Yeah I mentioned the relic. Except for the hammer none of that even matters and the hammer costs more points. 35 point difference actually with 3 attacks I can't imagine paying for a melee weapon on this guy.
That's a little harsh, hes just a casual player with a casual perspective, he might be wrong about X but his opinion is still valid (and i can promise you hes not the only one who thinks that way).
Crowe being a bargain libby is not a casual perspective. It simply looks at the cost of the 2 units and compares their ability. Outside of a relic - there is basically no reason to take a libby over crowe. Also I am not a casual player - that is a grand assumption by you.
Hes not a bargain anything. Librarians know 2 spells, he knows 1, he also can't wield a hammer and, can't deep strike, and he doesn't have access to the Librarian only relic.
Yeah I mentioned the relic. Except for the hammer none of that even matters and the hammer costs more points. 35 point difference actually with 3 attacks I can't imagine paying for a melee weapon on this guy.
Deep Strike, more powers, and access to relics doesn't matter? You really don't understand the army huh?
I'd rather take a generic Champ and get the FNP relic than use Crowe ever.
Xenomancers wrote: Except for the hammer none of that even matters and the hammer costs more points.
How can you say knowing half the number of spells doesn't matter? Every character in your army knows one spell.
How is Crowe anything like a Librarian?
because the libby is smiting most the time anyways...??????????? And he can cast the same number of spells...so you only lose a spell you aren't casting all the time anyways. Granted crowes range on his smite is low. It is an auto 11. Again I am not saying he is amazing. Just that hes not bad.
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Spartacus wrote: Yep, the correct answer to the Crowe question is generally 'no, just find space for Voldus', even moreso now.
You are likely taking voldis anyways...Gk army will have between 5-6 hqs. Crowe can fit in there.
Xenomancers wrote: because the libby is smiting most the time anyways...???????????
I got to this point and honestly i stopped reading. No, nope, never, god damn man for real man? Damn near every single new spell is useful, and on a good round you could cast at least half of them and never have a chance to repeat the same spell.
I'll give you an example i have 8 characters in my current list, i know 9 spells and i can cast 10.
On any given round you will cast at least 3 Sanctic (Astral Aim, Gate & Sanctuary) and 4 / 5 Dominus spells, that leaves you with 2 / 3 smites or the more situations spells (Hammer Hand, Vortex of Doom ect). On top of 6 other possible smites.
More reasons you wouldn't use smite on a Librarian. He carries relics, either a shard or the matrix. Both convey bonuses to casting, meaning you should probably use him to get the higher value WC spells off, the ones you really need to go off (Edict Imperator, Vortex ect)
I would assume that the Librarian with the shard would be farming CPs and changing Tides every turn, as those two are arguably the two powers that consistently get cast every turn without exception. A hypothetical second Librarian would have the staff, and be casting things like Edict Imperator. For only a little more than Crowe you get a Chaplain.
I'm curious, with the experiences and discussions of GK players here regarding the PA4 rules, what are your thoughts on our "ranking / tier-level", compared to the other SM Chapter with supplements / PA4 rules:
^ By the looks of things many (non GK players?), STILL think GK are below every other SM chapter (except SW/DW who are still waiting for their upgrades).
Waking Dreamer wrote: I'm curious, with the experiences and discussions of GK players here regarding the PA4 rules, what are your thoughts on our "ranking / tier-level", compared to the other SM Chapter with supplements / PA4 rules:
^ By the looks of things many (non GK players?), STILL think GK are below every other SM chapter (except SW/DW who are still waiting for their upgrades).
We'll just have to prove them wrong then
In seriousness, I have no idea. I think the army is going to be similar to GSC when it came out and have a decently high skill cap but also be easy to lose with. It's definitely not Iron Hands tier though; and alot will depend on your opponent's list. Personally, I think it's being ranked low by current or potential GK players who still want to be the underdog and have their wins attributed to "skill".
Waking Dreamer wrote: I'm curious, with the experiences and discussions of GK players here regarding the PA4 rules, what are your thoughts on our "ranking / tier-level", compared to the other SM Chapter with supplements / PA4 rules:
^ By the looks of things many (non GK players?), STILL think GK are below every other SM chapter (except SW/DW who are still waiting for their upgrades).
Hard to say really. Some great shooting buffs but in general the army does not shoot well. The mortal output is insane though. GK seem more like a matchup nightmare than a top contender. The biggest factor is not getting the reroll all hits aura for draigo / grand master stratagem. ESP with the buff to psy weapons being a core element to how the army is played. Not being able to reroll failed 3's on heavies is a big deal AND -1 to hit spam only makes this problem worse. Space marines is not an auto loss anyways like it used to be. You can probably win if you go first now.
Xenomancers wrote: because the libby is smiting most the time anyways...???????????
I got to this point and honestly i stopped reading. No, nope, never, god damn man for real man? Damn near every single new spell is useful, and on a good round you could cast at least half of them and never have a chance to repeat the same spell.
I'll give you an example i have 8 characters in my current list, i know 9 spells and i can cast 10.
On any given round you will cast at least 3 Sanctic (Astral Aim, Gate & Sanctuary) and 4 / 5 Dominus spells, that leaves you with 2 / 3 smites or the more situations spells (Hammer Hand, Vortex of Doom ect). On top of 6 other possible smites.
More reasons you wouldn't use smite on a Librarian. He carries relics, either a shard or the matrix. Both convey bonuses to casting, meaning you should probably use him to get the higher value WC spells off, the ones you really need to go off (Edict Imperator, Vortex ect)
Doing 2 flat mortals is pretty dang useful too jsut as a short range auto d6 mortals is too. Different play-styles obviously. I come to destroy your army as quickly as possible. Again - I'm not even suggesting that you should use crowe - just saying you are undervaluing him. Which ofc you are. Crowe is a bargain for what you get - that doesn't mean you should use him in your list. Not really my style but putting crowe in a SR with 2 units of purifiers can put out insane mortal damage and with the speed of the sr and the 2nd turn move out of the sr you will be able to place 3 d6 smites almost anywhere you want. Might as well put a dread in there too.
The HQ's I play on using are:
2 Bro champs
1 Libby
1 Chappy
Draigo
Voldus
Plan of use - 6 smites and +1 to cast / change tide / GOI / edict
My Ven dread is going to be casting astral on himself
Well, in my recent games I took 2 Techmarines and 3 Ven Dreads with astral aim.
Being in cover is even better. But beware of Eliminators sniping out the Techmarines.
Well, in my recent games I took 2 Techmarines and 3 Ven Dreads with astral aim.
Being in cover is even better. But beware of Eliminators sniping out the Techmarines.
Honestly if that's what they're targeting I don't care. With how good their guns can be it's a waste of shots.
TheBoy wrote: Would a list like this still be able to use tides? I have a Inquisitor and a requestioned assassin.
Inquisitor yes, Assassin no.
Assassins require a lot of CP to be truly effective, and you're going to need that for your GKs.
Inquisitors on the other hand require very little, and both Rex and Coteaz excellent choices.
They aren't a waste of points if you aren't trying to fill your slots. They have tricks that are at least somewhat handy, like the extra Psyker powers and CP regeneration.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, an Inquisitor is a waste of points as he/she has no place in the FOC.
A barebone Xeno inquisitor could be of some usage. 55 points with the relic to recycle CP with a +5 and the xeno power to not let him be charged if it's further than 6" for extra survivability to CC deep strikes. Just to sit him in the deployment zone sitting on an objective and helping with the board presence in the backfile. If at the end of turn 3 between you and your opponent has used 9 starts he statistically will get back 3CP - 1CP = 2CP. If he survives more maybe he will make an extra 1CP - 2CP at the end of the battle which is something in between an extra detachment and a battalion.
It is a bit of a gamble but perhaps in a CP tight list could be useful as an extra CP source. Perhaps in lists with a single battalion and 1 or 2 vanguard / spearhead / outrider / supreme command could be useful?
I've thought about an inquisitor, mainly for fluff reasons but what I see them bringing is CP regen and another psychic tree. Of those, only the psychic powers are really useful since you can only gain 1 CP/turn in matched play and you'll probably be doing that via your GK characters and the Dominus psychic powers. The 5++ ordo malleus-specific power stacked with sanctuary can give a single PAGK squad a 4++, no overwatch is always great and if you're close enough shooting an enemy's gun is situational.
I’m sure Mr. Baker would have more enlightening commentary, but I’m guessing one squad is getting Armoured Resilience and the other is getting Transhuman Physiology, which against S5-7 does the same thing. And then you’ve got Heed and Sanctuary, so it’s possible to split your buffs or super buff a single squad then gate the other one in when needed.
Tried the list out at 750 it didn't seem like I needed tides. Assassin sat with neg 2 in cover and soaked up damage. Inquisitor smited for d3 a 18 which really helped range wise. Interagation was useful for when his hammer captain came up and I made it hit on 4s plus the bonus comand point helped. My librarian kept generating command pts for me and he buffed my psycannons to reroll wounds. All said tides help alot but with how many command points I generated (6+) I feel like I was able to make up for it.
Take-aways:
- Non-Psyker units no longer benefit from the Tides, so no more -1 to hit 1+ Land Raiders in cover. Which is what I initially expected, but still a loss.
- The Lore Master warlord traits indeed gives you an extra Dominus power if your other powers are Dominus powers. No mixing and matching.
Take-aways:
- Non-Psyker units no longer benefit from the Tides, so no more -1 to hit 1+ Land Raiders in cover. Which is what I initially expected, but still a loss.
- The Lore Master warlord traits indeed gives you an extra Dominus power if your other powers are Dominus powers. No mixing and matching.
Looks like we were both right about Lore-Master and Dominus powers then.
Yay for 3 usable Dominus powers for Libbies or 4 Dominus powers for Voldus!
Interestingly, he chose to bring 4x Psycannons into his list for any special weapons.
The list is quite okay.
Lots of storm bolters and only 4 heavy weapons (psycannons) in a Paladin special squad.
Seems not easy to play, needs a smart player.
Three GKSS have gate and the three others have vortex of doom.
Seems clear how to use them.
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
10 man paladin I think certainly will see a lot of play. The only issue on that compared to msu is it costs you practically 8 mortal wounds a turn. This list even includes 2 5 man paladins. So we are looking at an MSU list doing 16ish more mortals a turn compared to this...I just don't see how that is going to compare favorably. I think it's really just ITC scoring that encourages lists like this.
So, BroChamp with the new relic sword and hammerhand as a cheapo support HQ? Wounds Knights on a 3+ with Hammerhand (can obviously run something else and still have what is essentially a Thunder Hammer hitting on 2+).
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
Seconded, the list looks strange.
I wonder about the initial setup of the units.
There are 6 Strike squads, three with the gate and three with the vortex.
I would deep strike the vortex units and set up the gate units regularly in turn 1.
The Paladin units have hammer-hand and so will be rather immobile on the board. The enemy will concentrate fire on them. If such a unit is set up regularly in turn 1, the enemy may try to withdraw his units from its fire range (24 + 5 = 29'').
Librarian and Chaplain are mandatory, while I would never use a named character.
Could somebody enlighten me about Voldus?
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
Seconded, the list looks strange.
I wonder about the initial setup of the units.
There are 6 Strike squads, three with the gate and three with the vortex.
I would deep strike the vortex units and set up the gate units regularly in turn 1.
The Paladin units have hammer-hand and so will be rather immobile on the board. The enemy will concentrate fire on them. If such a unit is set up regularly in turn 1, the enemy may try to withdraw his units from its fire range (24 + 5 = 29'').
Librarian and Chaplain are mandatory, while I would never use a named character.
Could somebody enlighten me about Voldus?
Well, it seems this highlights the differences between merely theorycrafting + mathhammer vs first-hand tournament play and just getting the job done with the units you've chosen on the day(s). The 6-0 victory is nothing to sneeze at.
Lawrence usually breaks down his tournament experiences soon after he gets back - so we'll probably see a video of his GK army and how they went in an actually tournament-level playing field within the week or so.
Well, it seems this highlights the differences between merely theorycrafting + mathhammer vs first-hand tournament play and just getting the job done with the units you've chosen on the day(s). The 6-0 victory is nothing to sneeze at.
Seconded.
But before I bring an army to the battle field, theory-crafting and math-hammer is what I do rather extensively.
The Paladin blocks aren't immobile at all; he's got a bunch of potential sources of Gate of Infinity for them if he needs them. The Strike Squads don't have to gate themselves.
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
Seconded, the list looks strange.
I wonder about the initial setup of the units.
There are 6 Strike squads, three with the gate and three with the vortex.
I would deep strike the vortex units and set up the gate units regularly in turn 1.
The Paladin units have hammer-hand and so will be rather immobile on the board. The enemy will concentrate fire on them. If such a unit is set up regularly in turn 1, the enemy may try to withdraw his units from its fire range (24 + 5 = 29'').
Librarian and Chaplain are mandatory, while I would never use a named character.
Could somebody enlighten me about Voldus?
Voldus is a strong beatstick and can also bring 3 powers and reroll 1's aura. Brings a lot to the table but not sure he is mandatory though. The 3 powers is nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like this list.
Brigade
GM w Psycannon and Relic blade
BC w Psycannon and NFH Libby w Relic casting and SB
This is a mechanized list I built before the FAQ for a casual league I'm playing in. It is definitely not optimized for tournament play. To be frank, I wanted a list that included by Vortimer Pattern LR since it is one of the models I am the most proud of. I was hoping it might have a chance of being decent with the Tide of Shadows, but with the new FAQ, I'm pretty sure it simply won't survive the anti-armour firepower that most lists can put out in turn one.
I use Crowe and Corteaz to accompany squads in the razorbacks, (Crowe with his purifiers of course), Draigo, the Apothecary and the Paladins in the LR. Voldus and the other two squads can cover stuff, but I want Voldus close enough to the Land Raider to be able to pull off the Edict on turn one to give it an additional move if required. Not sure how well this will work in practice, as if I get to close, an opponent might be able to wrap me before I can disembark.
Just wanted to post my two cents, and a bad list for the competatives to pull apart at their leisure :-)
A brigade would certainly be a viable option - with no ''eggs in one basket'' Paladin unit.
A brigade is good for most Marine factions because their HQs tend to be taxes beyond the first one or two. In our case I think three Battalions is far better than a Brigade since our HQs are so good.
A brigade would certainly be a viable option - with no ''eggs in one basket'' Paladin unit.
A brigade is good for most Marine factions because their HQs tend to be taxes beyond the first one or two. In our case I think three Battalions is far better than a Brigade since our HQs are so good.
Good but rather expensive unless you field some tanks with attached Techmarines.
A brigade would certainly be a viable option - with no ''eggs in one basket'' Paladin unit.
A brigade is good for most Marine factions because their HQs tend to be taxes beyond the first one or two. In our case I think three Battalions is far better than a Brigade since our HQs are so good.
For you really think marine hqs are taxes beyond 2? Captains, lieutenants, chaplains, librarians, these are all good hq options that have a lot of good usage in a marine force.
As for grey knight hqs I agree they are all pretty useful. I find I keep going back to chaplain librarian for my force though.
For you really think marine hqs are taxes beyond 2? Captains, lieutenants, chaplains, librarians, these are all good hq options that have a lot of good usage in a marine force.
As for grey knight hqs I agree they are all pretty useful. I find I keep going back to chaplain librarian for my force though.
Even with the new litanies, or because of them (DAMN 3+), I haven't found the Chaplains to be world breakers. I'll take one to accompany some Centurions, but other than that those 100ish points are better spent elsewhere. Never found lieutenants particularly useful, I've only used them when I needed to fill out another HQ and sat them with some Dev squads. Caps with their re-roll aura is good of course, but once you have an aura you don't need extras. Libbys are, well Libbys, they're useful.
So, in my Marine list, I'm always going to want a Cap and a Libby, beyond that, their HQs are mostly niche, if you have some squads that will benefit from one, great. But they don't beg to be included because they themselves are awesome, like the GK do.
When I'm building a double Battalion SM list, I constantly find myself seeing my third or fourth HQ as a tax, trying to maximize it's usefulness, but wishing I could spend those points on something else. Meanwhile, when I build a GK list, I'm constantly trying to make sure I don't sink too many points into the HQs, because they are so blatantly awesome. Heck, there aren't that many factions where you actually see a Supreme command detachment show up in tournaments, the GK is one of those.
I feel like if GK had access to chaplain dreads - it would really elevate them to top teir marines. Chaplains are so important in GK army but also kind of suck. lol.
Waking Dreamer wrote: I'm curious, with the experiences and discussions of GK players here regarding the PA4 rules, what are your thoughts on our "ranking / tier-level", compared to the other SM Chapter with supplements / PA4 rules:
^ By the looks of things many (non GK players?), STILL think GK are below every other SM chapter (except SW/DW who are still waiting for their upgrades).
We'll just have to prove them wrong then
In seriousness, I have no idea. I think the army is going to be similar to GSC when it came out and have a decently high skill cap but also be easy to lose with. It's definitely not Iron Hands tier though; and alot will depend on your opponent's list. Personally, I think it's being ranked low by current or potential GK players who still want to be the underdog and have their wins attributed to "skill".
I was having some success before hand, so I might be biased, but I think we have a lot of good tools to win. I'm so far really impressed with how my stuff has done lately, though I'm still not quite ready to put down Grey Knights when registering for competitive events. But it might happen, since I've been really happy with the performance of my GK lists and much less happy with my post-codex Sisters lists. I'm kind of waiting to see how Guard comes out of PA to make the call.
I think we're also definitely below all Space Marine armies, but that's not saying a lot because the Space Marine Supplements are f***ing insane. We're definitely competitive with the rest of the non-space-marine field, though, I think.
I want to run either Inquisitor Rex or Coteaz and i need help filling the last 200 or so points of my double battalion Paladin list.
My thoughts are if i go with Coteaz i should pick up some Interceptors and use them for board control.
If i use Rex to backup the Paladins ill go with Purges and stay in dakka tide for the majority of the game.
Coteaz gives more benefits to the army as a whole. Not sure what Rex does off the top of my head outside contribute more to melee. However, the rest of the army is already okay-ish at melee.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Coteaz gives more benefits to the army as a whole. Not sure what Rex does off the top of my head outside contribute more to melee. However, the rest of the army is already okay-ish at melee.
Agreed on Coteaz. Rex is also very very good though, DS / 3+ invul, 3 casts 4 denies, hes a monster. However i think Spynetwork is superior agasint most armies.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: So, BroChamp with the new relic sword and hammerhand as a cheapo support HQ? Wounds Knights on a 3+ with Hammerhand (can obviously run something else and still have what is essentially a Thunder Hammer hitting on 2+).
I wouldn't waste your CP or relic slot on that POS sword, at least by comparison. Make sure you've got shard on someone, anyone, to ensure those spells you _need_ to go off, go off.
The problem with the relic sword is it's still strength 4, and as a caster army you have so many better options (shard, matrix ect).
If you're going to use any melee weapon it should be the Soul Glaive, and that's not very good either relative.
It's str 5 ap-3 flat 3 damage. It is a great weapon. It is basically a free thunderhammer vs infantry. you just hit on 2's wound on 3's instead of hit on 3's wound on 2's. It also = no invune saves vs daemons (not that you are gonna be struggling against daemons anyways).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Coteaz gives more benefits to the army as a whole. Not sure what Rex does off the top of my head outside contribute more to melee. However, the rest of the army is already okay-ish at melee.
Rex can deep strike and drop a power to prevent any sort of overwatch. He's no slouch in CC as well. If you want an Inquisitor out with your main body and don't have transport, I think that Rex is the way to go. Otherwise Corteaz's special is just awesome.
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Xenomancers wrote: It's str 5 ap-3 flat 3 damage. It is a great weapon. It is basically a free thunderhammer vs infantry. you just hit on 2's wound on 3's instead of hit on 3's wound on 2's. It also = no invune saves vs daemons (not that you are gonna be struggling against daemons anyways).
Agreed, the new sword is actually worth taking, but partially because our other Relics are largely meh. The shard is good if you're taking a Libby for your important powers, but I like taking Voldus for his super hammer, no relic for him.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?
Sure! He automatically fights on death which should stack with the Stratagem to fight on death allowing to fight 2-3 times with a AP-3 flat 3 damage weapon. He'll put some pretty decent hurt on whatever behemoth he's facing for 90 points and 1-2 CP.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?
Sure! He automatically fights on death which should stack with the Stratagem to fight on death allowing to fight 2-3 times with a AP-3 flat 3 damage weapon. He'll put some pretty decent hurt on whatever behemoth he's facing for 90 points and 1-2 CP.
They errata'd the stratagem to get rid of the double death fight, but I agree, for 90 points he's not bad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?
Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?