OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but Ghaz is flat-out broken. I'm also reading his data from saga of the beast from Belle of lost souls, so if this has been redacted or something I apologize. Just going on the information I have.
Firstly, no unit in the game should ever have a cap on how many wounds they can take per phase. This literally breaks the system, because anything attacking him will have to gamble wasting firepower on him due to the very real--indeed, probable, outcome that they will waste wounds should they exceed that cap. This is compounded by the fact that because he's got a 4+ invuln and 12 wounds (Holy gak BTW) that enemies will have to sink lots of attacks into him. Add to this a 6+ FNP with a banner and it gets even more bananas. Oh--and he's fething T7 along for the bargain.
It gets worse the more you think about it. Grey knights do most of their wounds in the psychic phase, so they're out of luck against him. Blood Angels basically do all their work in the fight phase. No joy there. Raven Guard benefit from character targeting and the shooting phase in general. Not a big deal since he can only take 4 wounds in that phase, too.
You can extend this problem to basically every faction in the game. GW has made something that is ridiculously effective against literally every faction in the game. Moreover he gets X attacks with a -4 APD4 Melee weapon, and he's pretty much always going to make the charge. He will basically just death-chain around the board and be effectively unkillable. Oh--and morale fails made for orks around him mean far less than before given he has a special rule granting D3 mortal wounds.
Marines have the LEAST issues handling him-they can very reasonably do 8 wounds a turn, since Marines of all stripes have potent Assault AND Shooting elements. They can reasonably one-turn him, though that's less likely in a TAC list.
He has 5-7 attacks based on his tier. Feed him a cheap unit a turn and he'll do literally nothing important.
He only has a 6+++ (which basically doesn't matter-it's rarely going to be the difference between 3 and 4 wounds, and 4 wounds is the number that matters) if he's with Makarii, who sucks.
He's NOT always gonna make the charge-he has about a 50/50 shot of making it out of Deep Strike, he cannot advance and charge, and he has only a 7" move.
Moreover, he's close to 300 points.
I do agree that Max Wounds Per Phase is bad game design, but Ghaz is not even CLOSE to OP.
Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.
Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.
SemperMortis wrote: Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.
Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.
It just about killing Ghaz. It's about the fact to ensure you kill Ghaz, you have to devote huge amounts of resources to do that whilst ignoring other units. Units which are going to roll up and wrap you. If you fail to kill him before that happens, then you're not killing him 2/3 phases. If you're not killing him 2/3 phases then you're probably not killing him.
Only being able to take 4 wounds is the best ability the game has ever seen.
SemperMortis wrote: Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.
Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.
It just about killing Ghaz. It's about the fact to ensure you kill Ghaz, you have to devote huge amounts of resources to do that whilst ignoring other units. Units which are going to roll up and wrap you. If you fail to kill him before that happens, then you're not killing him 2/3 phases. If you're not killing him 2/3 phases then you're probably not killing him.
Only being able to take 4 wounds is the best ability the game has ever seen.
You devote exactly enough resources to do 4 wounds to him, then you ignore him.
SemperMortis wrote: Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.
Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.
It just about killing Ghaz. It's about the fact to ensure you kill Ghaz, you have to devote huge amounts of resources to do that whilst ignoring other units. Units which are going to roll up and wrap you. If you fail to kill him before that happens, then you're not killing him 2/3 phases. If you're not killing him 2/3 phases then you're probably not killing him.
Only being able to take 4 wounds is the best ability the game has ever seen.
You devote exactly enough resources to do 4 wounds to him, then you ignore him.
lol you're a genius!
Tell me; how do you know exactly how many resources that is? Crystal ball?
SemperMortis wrote: Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.
Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.
It just about killing Ghaz. It's about the fact to ensure you kill Ghaz, you have to devote huge amounts of resources to do that whilst ignoring other units. Units which are going to roll up and wrap you. If you fail to kill him before that happens, then you're not killing him 2/3 phases. If you're not killing him 2/3 phases then you're probably not killing him.
Only being able to take 4 wounds is the best ability the game has ever seen.
You devote exactly enough resources to do 4 wounds to him, then you ignore him.
lol you're a genius!
Tell me; how do you know exactly how many resources that is? Crystal ball?
Shoot him with whatever's good (say, a squad of Stalker Bolt Rife Intercessors) until he takes four damage. Then shoot at other stuff.
For reference, it takes...
18 unsupported Stalker Intercessors, or 11.6 Chapter Master/Lieutenant supported Stalker Intercessors to do 4 wounds to Ghaz, on average.
If you have Devastator Squads, shoot one or two heavy weapons at him, and the rest at other targets.
For reference, it takes...
4.5 unsupported Lascannon or Krak Missile shots to do one unsaved WOUND to Ghaz (which has a 50/50 shot of doing 4+ damage, 75% with a CP-better than Ghaz's odds of making a charge out of Deep Strike), or 2.9 with Chapter Master and Lieutenant.
Compare that to something like an Imperial Knight. THAT can take a whole army's worth of shooting to take down.
SemperMortis wrote: Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.
Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.
It just about killing Ghaz. It's about the fact to ensure you kill Ghaz, you have to devote huge amounts of resources to do that whilst ignoring other units. Units which are going to roll up and wrap you. If you fail to kill him before that happens, then you're not killing him 2/3 phases. If you're not killing him 2/3 phases then you're probably not killing him.
Only being able to take 4 wounds is the best ability the game has ever seen.
You devote exactly enough resources to do 4 wounds to him, then you ignore him.
lol you're a genius!
Tell me; how do you know exactly how many resources that is? Crystal ball?
Shoot him with whatever's good (say, a squad of Stalker Bolt Rife Intercessors) until he takes four damage. Then shoot at other stuff.
For reference, it takes...
18 unsupported Stalker Intercessors, or 11.6 Chapter Master/Lieutenant supported Stalker Intercessors to do 4 wounds to Ghaz, on average.
If you have Devastator Squads, shoot one or two heavy weapons at him, and the rest at other targets.
For reference, it takes...
4.5 unsupported Lascannon or Krak Missile shots to do one unsaved WOUND to Ghaz (which has a 50/50 shot of doing 4+ damage, 75% with a CP-better than Ghaz's odds of making a charge out of Deep Strike), or 2.9 with Chapter Master and Lieutenant.
Compare that to something like an Imperial Knight. THAT can take a whole army's worth of shooting to take down.
I see. So your plan is to devote 18 intecessors with stalker bolt rifles into a single model for an outcome of 4 wounds assuming you hit average rolls., or 11.6 with a chapter master. So you have just dedicated the entire firepower of a very expensive unit for the outcome of possibly 4 wounds, which has the potential to clear an entire unit and score a point. That's assuming you even have LOS, or he isn't screened. Or maybe you designate high damage high AP low-output anti-tank into him, which he has a very real opportunity of simply shrugging due to his 4+, especially if he re-rolls a save. What happens the next turn when those intercessors, even if they do manage to sink in 4 wounds, get shot, then charged and wrapped? What if they only take two wounds? What if they whiff everything?
This is my entire point; it isn't just about killing Ghaz. It's about what you're not killing while you're trying to kill Ghaz.
First off, 18 Intercessors are 306 points. 20 (a more realistic number) is 340. That's 55 points more than Ghaz... Or less than Ghaz and Makari together.
How do you screen him? He's 12 wounds. And he's a thic boi, so good luck finding decent LoS blocking terrain. And if he IS behind LoS blocking terrain, GOOD! He's a Monster-he can't walk through walls, so he's stuck walking AROUND the entire thing.
And if Ghaz isn't the biggest threat... THEN DON'T SHOOT GHAZ. That's not complicated. If your opponent is running three Evil Suns Bonebreakas and a Wartrike, then no dip you don't bother with Ghaz, because he's too slow to matter.
If your strategy relies on your opponent being stupid, it's not a good strategy.
JNAProductions wrote: First off, 18 Intercessors are 306 points. 20 (a more realistic number) is 340. That's 55 points more than Ghaz... Or less than Ghaz and Makari together.
How do you screen him? He's 12 wounds. And he's a thic boi, so good luck finding decent LoS blocking terrain. And if he IS behind LoS blocking terrain, GOOD! He's a Monster-he can't walk through walls, so he's stuck walking AROUND the entire thing.
And if Ghaz isn't the biggest threat... THEN DON'T SHOOT GHAZ. That's not complicated. If your opponent is running three Evil Suns Bonebreakas and a Wartrike, then no dip you don't bother with Ghaz, because he's too slow to matter.
If your strategy relies on your opponent being stupid, it's not a good strategy.
That's exactly my point. He's too much of a badass to ignore, and he's too much of a sponge to clear, and is a massive waste of resources which he will force his opponent to waste because he has the most absurdly overpowered special rule the game has ever known.
Roberts84 wrote: This is compounded by the fact that because he's got a 4+ invuln and 12 wounds
Ironically, he'd actually be far more threatening if he had only 9 wounds.
It would still take at least 3 phases to kill him but suddenly he can be screened by any Ork unit.
But with 12 wounds, I'm really not seeing the issue. It no doubt makes him a bit of a pain but that resilience is virtually all he's got going for him.
- He's good in melee (as you'd expect from the Orkiest Ork to ever Ork)
- His movement speed is decidedly average and as it stands he can't even Advance and Charge.
- With BS5+ his shooting is negligible, relative to his cost (bear in mind that he's almost into Imperial Knight prices).
- Unlike, say, Rowboat Girlyman his auras aren't massive force-multipliers for the rest of his faction.
To be perfectly honest, Ghaz seems like one of the least offensive models to receive that particular rule.
Roberts84 wrote: This is compounded by the fact that because he's got a 4+ invuln and 12 wounds
Ironically, he'd actually be far more threatening if he had only 9 wounds.
It would still take at least 3 phases to kill him but suddenly he can be screened by any Ork unit.
But with 12 wounds, I'm really not seeing the issue. It no doubt makes him a bit of a pain but that resilience is virtually all he's got going for him.
- He's good in melee (as you'd expect from the Orkiest Ork to ever Ork)
- His movement speed is decidedly average and as it stands he can't even Advance and Charge.
- With BS5+ his shooting is negligible, relative to his cost (bear in mind that he's almost into Imperial Knight prices).
- Unlike, say, Rowboat Girlyman his auras aren't massive force-multipliers for the rest of his faction.
To be perfectly honest, Ghaz seems like one of the least offensive models to receive that particular rule.
You do realize you can get him to T8 with ard' as nails, right?
That means basically everything other than anti-tank is going to be wounding him on 5's and 6's only.
Roberts84 wrote: This is compounded by the fact that because he's got a 4+ invuln and 12 wounds
Ironically, he'd actually be far more threatening if he had only 9 wounds.
It would still take at least 3 phases to kill him but suddenly he can be screened by any Ork unit.
But with 12 wounds, I'm really not seeing the issue. It no doubt makes him a bit of a pain but that resilience is virtually all he's got going for him.
- He's good in melee (as you'd expect from the Orkiest Ork to ever Ork)
- His movement speed is decidedly average and as it stands he can't even Advance and Charge.
- With BS5+ his shooting is negligible, relative to his cost (bear in mind that he's almost into Imperial Knight prices).
- Unlike, say, Rowboat Girlyman his auras aren't massive force-multipliers for the rest of his faction.
To be perfectly honest, Ghaz seems like one of the least offensive models to receive that particular rule.
You do realize you can get him to T8 with ard' as nails, right?
That means basically everything other than anti-tank is going to be wounding him on 5's and 6's only.
Think about that.
No you can't. He can only have the Goff warlord trait.
Roberts84 wrote: This is compounded by the fact that because he's got a 4+ invuln and 12 wounds
Ironically, he'd actually be far more threatening if he had only 9 wounds.
It would still take at least 3 phases to kill him but suddenly he can be screened by any Ork unit.
But with 12 wounds, I'm really not seeing the issue. It no doubt makes him a bit of a pain but that resilience is virtually all he's got going for him.
- He's good in melee (as you'd expect from the Orkiest Ork to ever Ork)
- His movement speed is decidedly average and as it stands he can't even Advance and Charge.
- With BS5+ his shooting is negligible, relative to his cost (bear in mind that he's almost into Imperial Knight prices).
- Unlike, say, Rowboat Girlyman his auras aren't massive force-multipliers for the rest of his faction.
To be perfectly honest, Ghaz seems like one of the least offensive models to receive that particular rule.
You do realize you can get him to T8 with ard' as nails, right?
That means basically everything other than anti-tank is going to be wounding him on 5's and 6's only.
Think about that.
No you can't. He can only have the Goff warlord trait.
Where is this specified? Because if he can be T8 I don't think whether or not he's OP is in doubt. Ard' as nails is a warlord trait. I can't see why he couldn't be given it.
Unique Characters either have a set Warlord Trait (if their subfaction has a pool, such as Bobby G and Calgar) or may only take their subfaction Trait (as is the case with Ghaz).
There are exceptions (such as the Avatar of Khaine) but Ghaz is not one of them.
Roberts84 wrote: This is compounded by the fact that because he's got a 4+ invuln and 12 wounds
Ironically, he'd actually be far more threatening if he had only 9 wounds.
It would still take at least 3 phases to kill him but suddenly he can be screened by any Ork unit.
But with 12 wounds, I'm really not seeing the issue. It no doubt makes him a bit of a pain but that resilience is virtually all he's got going for him.
- He's good in melee (as you'd expect from the Orkiest Ork to ever Ork)
- His movement speed is decidedly average and as it stands he can't even Advance and Charge.
- With BS5+ his shooting is negligible, relative to his cost (bear in mind that he's almost into Imperial Knight prices).
- Unlike, say, Rowboat Girlyman his auras aren't massive force-multipliers for the rest of his faction.
To be perfectly honest, Ghaz seems like one of the least offensive models to receive that particular rule.
You do realize you can get him to T8 with ard' as nails, right?
That means basically everything other than anti-tank is going to be wounding him on 5's and 6's only.
Think about that.
No you can't. He can only have the Goff warlord trait.
Where is this specified? Because if he can be T8 I don't think whether or not he's OP is in doubt.
Codex: Orks.
Even at Toughness 8 he's meh. You're probably shooting AT firepower at 'im anyway(or Plasma), but not enough to do much more than 4 damage.
JNAProductions wrote: Unique Characters either have a set Warlord Trait (if their subfaction has a pool, such as Bobby G and Calgar) or may only take their subfaction Trait (as is the case with Ghaz).
There are exceptions (such as the Avatar of Khaine) but Ghaz is not one of them.
So you could in fact give him hard as nails and just swap out the Klan Kulture. Is this correct?
JNAProductions wrote: Unique Characters either have a set Warlord Trait (if their subfaction has a pool, such as Bobby G and Calgar) or may only take their subfaction Trait (as is the case with Ghaz).
There are exceptions (such as the Avatar of Khaine) but Ghaz is not one of them.
So you could in fact give him hard as nails and just swap out the Klan Kulture. Is this correct?
No. He's a Goff. That doesn't ever change.
Edit: Which is something else you missed. Either he's taken in a non-Goff detachment (in which case, he gains no subfaction benefits and literally the only model who uses his "Reroll melee hit rolls of 1" is him) or you take him in a Goff detachment... Which suck.
Why would him being T8 make a difference in terms of his OP-ness at T7?
As a side note, I definitely don't think he's OP. He's a big walking beatstick, that kind of already says enough. He doesn't really have 300 points worth of buff ability and doesn't have the right keywords either. His only 4 damage per phase thing is neat, but it only makes him a better beatstick, and he's still just a melee beatstick.
I knew someone was gonna say Ghaz was OP and it's just as hilarious as I thought it would be. Yes, while you're shooting Ghaz, you ain't shooting other stuff (until you hit those 4 Wounds, of course). But, as mentioned, he's slow, has an unreliable charge, is terrible at range, and his buffs either affect only Infantry (meaning to optimize his buffs you'll take mostly Infantry and make Ghaz one of the few, or even the sole, target for all your opponent's anti-armor), or affect only Goffs (which is a mediocre Sub-Faction, at best).
Ghaz Pros:
He can hit like a truck.
He's really durable against some Factions.
Ghaz Cons:
He costs about 1/7th of your total points.
He's incredibly vulnerable to lists that don't focus on a single Phase.
He's not that fast, and gets slower as he gets hurt.
His ranged profile might as well not even exist.
If you Tellyport him (so he doesn't just get kited around the board), he only has a 50% chance to make his charge.
All of his buffs are suited for an army that makes him really easy to kill.
A chaff unit will shut him down, unless he has some back-up.
Well regardless at T7 and under 300 points he's ridiculous. He's cheaper than a Leviathan Dreadnought, is massively harder to kill, will wreck your plans in every phase, grants rerolls, and D3 on morale passes. And in melee he has the weaponry to delete anything on the board.
Let nobody say the Leviathan dreadnought ever be legended henceforth, IMO.
Roberts84 wrote: Well regardless at T7 and under 300 points he's ridiculous. He's cheaper than a Leviathan Dreadnought, is massively harder to kill, will wreck your plans in every phase, grants rerolls, and D3 on morale passes. And in melee he has the weaponry to delete anything on the board.
Let nobody say the Leviathan dreadnought ever be legended henceforth, IMO.
He's cheaper than a Leviathan Dread, yes.
Let's compare some shooting, shall we?
20 shots at 24" BS2+ S7 AP-1 D2 (if I recall correctly-I've not ever run one, so I may be wrong)
12 shots at 36" BS5+ S5 AP-1 D1
So, Ghaz has better range... At a worse BS, number of shots, Strength, and Damage.
Where the Leviathan reaches out and absolutely MURDERS something T1, Ghaz... Sits in the Tellyporter or ambles forward 10.5".
I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
flandarz wrote: I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
To be fair, I don't think that's good design. But that doesn't make Ghaz OP, just makes GW crappy.
Roberts84 wrote: Well regardless at T7 and under 300 points he's ridiculous. He's cheaper than a Leviathan Dreadnought, is massively harder to kill, will wreck your plans in every phase, grants rerolls, and D3 on morale passes. And in melee he has the weaponry to delete anything on the board.
Let nobody say the Leviathan dreadnought ever be legended henceforth, IMO.
He's cheaper than a Leviathan Dread, yes.
Let's compare some shooting, shall we?
20 shots at 24" BS2+ S7 AP-1 D2 (if I recall correctly-I've not ever run one, so I may be wrong)
12 shots at 36" BS5+ S5 AP-1 D1
So, Ghaz has better range... At a worse BS, number of shots, Strength, and Damage.
Where the Leviathan reaches out and absolutely MURDERS something T1, Ghaz... Sits in the Tellyporter or ambles forward 10.5".
Yeah. Ghaz sure is broken.
20 shots at the first values with dual storm cannons, which is what everybody takes.
The difference is that...well, you can kill a leviathan dreadnought turn 1 with even average rolls concentrated fire. Happens all the time especially against RG. The Leviathan is a good solid unit, but it's not pants-on-head slowed or anything, and it costs a LOT. You won't be clearing Ghaz turn 1. I surely doubt that, anyway--and if you do, you're going to have a really fun turn 2.
flandarz wrote: I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
Reposting this. Because Flandarz has a point.
Not dying is useful. But if that's the ONLY thing you do? (And T1, that's the only thing Ghaz does.) Not worth it.
T2? He charges a screen. Yay. Unless you take him in an infantry-heavy list... In which case, he's the only target for the anti-tank weapons, in which case he gets an absolute max of three turns.
flandarz wrote: I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
Reposting this. Because Flandarz has a point.
Not dying is useful. But if that's the ONLY thing you do? (And T1, that's the only thing Ghaz does.) Not worth it.
T2? He charges a screen. Yay. Unless you take him in an infantry-heavy list... In which case, he's the only target for the anti-tank weapons, in which case he gets an absolute max of three turns.
There's not dying and there's being nigh-unkillable to the point that one needs to dedicate virtually all one's high AP High damage weaponry to remove it from play.This totally changes an opponent's tactics because of a single unit. In fact I'd take a potato with zero attacks with his special rules assuming my opponent was forced to clear it.
You might not think he's OP on balance, but that special rule has absolutely no business in this game, and I think you know that.
flandarz wrote: I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
Reposting this. Because Flandarz has a point.
Not dying is useful. But if that's the ONLY thing you do? (And T1, that's the only thing Ghaz does.) Not worth it.
T2? He charges a screen. Yay. Unless you take him in an infantry-heavy list... In which case, he's the only target for the anti-tank weapons, in which case he gets an absolute max of three turns.
There's not dying and there's being nigh-unkillable to the point that one needs to dedicate virtually all one's high AP High damage weaponry to remove it from play.This totally changes an opponent's tactics because of a single unit. In fact I'd take a potato with zero attacks with his special rules assuming my opponent was forced to clear it.
You might not think he's OP on balance, but that special rule has absolutely no business in this game, and I think you know that.
First off, GEE! What gave you the idea I thought the rule was bad? Was it, my first post in this thread, where I said the rule was bad?
Second off, you do not need to dedicate all your high-AP weaponry. You need to dedicate exactly enough to do 4 wounds in a phase. Which is about one Lascannon Devastator squad.
flandarz wrote: I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
Reposting this. Because Flandarz has a point.
Not dying is useful. But if that's the ONLY thing you do? (And T1, that's the only thing Ghaz does.) Not worth it.
T2? He charges a screen. Yay. Unless you take him in an infantry-heavy list... In which case, he's the only target for the anti-tank weapons, in which case he gets an absolute max of three turns.
There's not dying and there's being nigh-unkillable to the point that one needs to dedicate virtually all one's high AP High damage weaponry to remove it from play.This totally changes an opponent's tactics because of a single unit. In fact I'd take a potato with zero attacks with his special rules assuming my opponent was forced to clear it.
You might not think he's OP on balance, but that special rule has absolutely no business in this game, and I think you know that.
First off, GEE! What gave you the idea I thought the rule was bad? Was it, my first post in this thread, where I said the rule was bad?
Second off, you do not need to dedicate all your high-AP weaponry. You need to dedicate exactly enough to do 4 wounds in a phase. Which is about one Lascannon Devastator squad.
You'll never know exactly how many resources you will need to dedicate to achieve this. No human being who has ever lived or ever will could do know such a thing. That's not a case worth making. We've been over this.
I guarantee you Ghaz becomes a feature of every ranked Orks list moving forward. He'll become an autotake in 2k games.
What JNA said. Attack with one unit. Not enough? Try with another. Still not enough? Continue on until it is, then fire everything else at other targets. If you're only taking enough anti-armor to deal 4 Wounds to a T7 Sv4++ unit, then you're probably not taking enough to deal with any actual threatening units. I'd wager you can deal those 4 Wounds with, at most, 2 units with proper anti-armor. Then you ignore him until the next time you can deal damage to him.
Alternatively, bog him down with a chaff unit and literally ignore him for the rest of the game. You could drop an 80pt Guardsman unit onto him and, unless your opponent brings over some Boys to help him out, he's gonna be there until you've basically won the game.
But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.
The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.
The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.
And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.
But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.
The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.
And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.
Yes well not all of us have ten thousand pox walkers to throw at him. There are no space marines equivalents for this.
But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.
The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.
And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.
Yes well not all of us have ten thousand pox walkers to throw at him. There are no space marines equivalents for this.
I don't run Death Guard.
And Marines have every capability of killing him in ONE turn. They've got great shooting, good assault, and good psychic. Or just tie him up with Scouts.
But you don't declare all your shots at once. It's on a unit to unit basis-so you don't HAVE to know.
The point is, you'll still have to waste shots with expensive weaponry trying to hit the 4 wounds per phase.This is bad in the shotting phase but it's horrific in the fight phase. Lets say you have ten intercessors or reivers or whatever and they charge in. They are going to HAVE to make every attack into ghaz regardless of anything else that they might declare--having ghaz next to another mob essentially means there's no point charging in/piling in to anything else next to him. And what if he heroically intervenes if he's close enough to do so if your melee force decides to charge something close to him that isn't him? He's so devastating in combat that he'll probably table your whole squad in the fight-back.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you're really thinking the ramifications of a wound cap per phase through. It's utterly devastating for armies which rely on melee. A good case in point is death company or even sanguinary guard. The most wounds they can put on him is 4, but he's got more than enough to wipe them out fighting back. So for 4 wounds, he's killed hundreds of points. It's mental, mate. Absolutely mental.
I run a melee army-as in, in a 2k list, I can feasibly have one gun. And it's a pistol.
And you know what? If my opponent brought Ghaz, I'd give absolutely zero feths, because even if I couldn't kill him, I could tarpit him with a unit cheaper than him for literally the entire game.
Yes well not all of us have ten thousand pox walkers to throw at him. There are no space marines equivalents for this.
I don't run Death Guard.
And Marines have every capability of killing him in ONE turn. They've got great shooting, good assault, and good psychic. Or just tie him up with Scouts.
You're kidding, right? Scouts? You obviously don't play Imperium either.
Toss two squads of scouts his way, and he's stuck for a turn. Sure, that's about a hundred points, but considering you chipped four wounds off last turn at the minimum and he's now in Smite range...
Yeah, no. Marines should not be scared of Ghaz.
Roberts84 wrote: You're kidding, right? Scouts? You obviously don't play Imperium either.
Also, since you're snarking at me like that, I'm not honestly sure you know the rules of the game. You don't know that unique characters have fixed warlord traits, you seem to believe that you must allocate all shooting at once (instead of just all shooting from one unit at once), and you clearly have no idea of what makes a unit good.
Again, I'll agree that the damage cap is bad design. But that doesn't make Ghaz OP. It makes the design bad.
JNAProductions wrote: Toss two squads of scouts his way, and he's stuck for a turn. Sure, that's about a hundred points, but considering you chipped four wounds off last turn at the minimum and he's now in Smite range...
Yeah, no. Marines should not be scared of Ghaz.
Roberts84 wrote: You're kidding, right? Scouts? You obviously don't play Imperium either.
Also, since you're snarking at me like that, I'm not honestly sure you know the rules of the game. You don't know that unique characters have fixed warlord traits, you seem to believe that you must allocate all shooting at once (instead of just all shooting from one unit at once), and you clearly have no idea of what makes a unit good.
Again, I'll agree that the damage cap is bad design. But that doesn't make Ghaz OP. It makes the design bad.
I never said, nor implied, that 'all shooting must be allocated at once'. That's on you for poor reading comprehension.
Playing scouts that way would defeat the purpose of scouts. I mean really, they are pretty much just there to camp objectives and plink off the odd wound on chaff--unless you make them snipers in which case you definitely wouldn't want to toss them at Ghaz. also. The strategy you have submitted would be, for RG, about the worst of all possibilities. I'm not saying you couldn't do it but it wouldn't be smart, and they're going to do nothing to him in melee in all probability anyway because knives have no AP. So you'd be sacrificing them to give up objectives to keep him locked down for max one turn and you'd be lucky to put a wound on him.
Honestly this reeks of more of the 'I hate SM marines so therefore they have a counter to everything' attitude which seems to dominate these threads.
I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
flandarz wrote: I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
His impact on Tau didn't even occur to me. Huh. The idea of Ghaz parked in front of Tau castle smashing suits and drones like flies while they can basically do nothing to him other than 4 wounds per round is...never mind.
I change my mind. Ghaz is fine. Needs more wounds and attacks if anything.
I never said, nor implied, that 'all shooting must be allocated at once'. That's on you for poor reading comprehension.
Based on your posts, I sincerely wondered if your local gaming group played with a variant rule where you had to allocate all your shooting in advance. You might not know exactly how much damage a given model will do to Ghaz when you shoot, but an understanding of averages and a rough notion of your army's abilities based on experience should give you a decent clue. And if you roll a bit below average? Toss some spare shots from another unit at him until you either hit 4 wounds or decide your remaining guns are better spent elsewhere.
You seem to be really perturbed by the idea of "overwounding" (as opposed to overkilling) Ghaz. Say I whittled my opponent's cultist unit down to two models remaining in my previous turn. My new turn comes around. Technically, I risk overklling the unit if I fire a single heavy bolter at them because the heavy bolter might do 3 wounds. But that doesn't mean firing the heavy bolter at them is somehow the worst idea in the world. And if my heavy bolter only kills 1 cultist? I can pick up the other with a stray bolter shot from somewhere in my army. I don't have to commit a reuplsor's worth of shooting to finish that last guy off. Similarly, it's not necessarily a terrible idea to shoot a lascannon at an enemy vehicle with 2 wounds left. Sure, I could gamble on some bolters picking off the last 2 wounds, but the lascannon's increased chances of wounding and getting through the tank's armor gives me a reason to use it over the bolters.
All the 4 wound cap does is guarantee you can't burst Ghaz down in a single phase. As expensive and durable as he is, you don't even have to feel bad about using your anti-tank on him.
Lammia wrote: Lammia's hot take: The Swarmlord is a bigger threat than Ghaz
T1 charge enabler vs +1 atk - Swarmy
Psychic powers vs shooting - Swarmy
Heal Stratagem + max 4 wounds/phase vs hiding behind a wall sending ballistic velocity melee squads forward and a 3++ in melee when you run out and charge Swarmy forwards - Swarmy
6 S8 attacks + the odd mortal wound vs 5 S16 - 7 S10 attacks - tie
Well, damn.
Wow, it didn't take long for this thread to show up, I wonder who...looks at OP's name ...uhhhh yup, I guess that makes sense.
Look, if you're going to complain about something being broken, at least have a sound understanding of the game first before going off into a tangent that basically gets disproven before it starts. You must be really crapping your pants from seeing Ragnar Blackmane's rules then, given his blenderific abilities to basically wipe out anything he touches if you get the right stratagems off.
Nobody tell him Makari has a 2+ invuln., his head might explode.
Grimskul wrote: Wow, it didn't take long for this thread to show up, I wonder who...looks at OP's name ...uhhhh yup, I guess that makes sense.
Look, if you're going to complain about something being broken, at least have a sound understanding of the game first before going off into a tangent that basically gets disproven before it starts. You must be really crapping your pants from seeing Ragnar Blackmane's rules then, given his blenderific abilities to basically wipe out anything he touches if you get the right stratagems off.
Nobody tell him Makari has a 2+ invuln., his head might explode.
ol Ah yes, another 40K player thinking this game is 'difficult'. Spoiler; it isn't. It's literally a game of dice-- an odds game with deep units, and datasets which is completely dependent on roll outcomes. It's almost a lottery. This might hurt your ego a bit, but compared to competitive play I am used to, this stuff is just cute. And that's fine, because I neither need, nor want it to be more than what it is. It's great the way it is. Do I respect ranked 40K players as much as ranked WOW players? No. Absolutely not. It's not the same deal and I find circuit 40K more than slightly ridiculous because it takes no intellect, nor skill, to simply max out lists of overpowered units and toss dice. No. Just No.
Anyway welcome to ignore, because I gave a mod my word I'd just slap anyone I find annoying on invisible mode rather than continue conflict.
Edit: Any replies relating to wow vs 40K will be ignored as that's not an argument I'm trying to start, and my opinion on that won't change.
Gulliman gets the ability to resurrect in a different phase. Celestine has the ability to resurrect in a different phase. Necron characters? Plus others I can’t think of right now. Essentially this has the similar outcome as Ghaz’s 4 wounds a phase, just that Orks don’t have to roll for him to resurrect. There’s pros and cons for the different rules, but bottom line is that he isn’t the ultra op unit you think he is.
flandarz wrote: I like how the measure of "this thing is OP" is the inability to delete it in a single phase. Not its killing potential. Not its ability to buff units. But only being able to take 4 Wounds a phase? Too strong, please nerf.
LOL as if he had any buffs worth mentioning. Orks don't need an extra attack only on the charge nor do Goffs want the reroll of 1s to hit in melee for 300 points. He's super badly designed.
Grimskul wrote: Wow, it didn't take long for this thread to show up, I wonder who...looks at OP's name ...uhhhh yup, I guess that makes sense.
Look, if you're going to complain about something being broken, at least have a sound understanding of the game first before going off into a tangent that basically gets disproven before it starts. You must be really crapping your pants from seeing Ragnar Blackmane's rules then, given his blenderific abilities to basically wipe out anything he touches if you get the right stratagems off.
Nobody tell him Makari has a 2+ invuln., his head might explode.
ol Ah yes, another 40K player thinking this game is 'difficult'. Spoiler; it isn't. It's literally a game of dice-- an odds game with deep units, and datasets which is completely dependent on roll outcomes. It's almost a lottery. This might hurt your ego a bit, but compared to competitive play I am used to, this stuff is just cute. And that's fine, because I neither need, nor want it to be more than what it is. It's great the way it is. Do I respect ranked 40K players as much as ranked WOW players? No. Absolutely not. It's not the same deal and I find circuit 40K more than slightly ridiculous because it takes no intellect, nor skill, to simply max out lists of overpowered units and toss dice. No. Just No.
Anyway welcome to ignore, because I gave a mod my word I'd just slap anyone I find annoying on invisible mode rather than continue conflict.
Edit: Any replies relating to wow vs 40K will be ignored as that's not an argument I'm trying to start, and my opinion on that won't change.
>says they're used to competitive play
>thought Ghaz could pick a Warlord Trait to make himself T8, even though the rules literally say otherwise
Pick one
flandarz wrote: I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
I don't think smart Tau should have any problems with Ghaz. They have enough useful Melee units to finish him in my experience...
flandarz wrote: I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
I don't think smart Tau should have any problems with Ghaz. They have enough useful Melee units to finish him in my experience...
Completely disagree, it takes 108 advanced targeting system melee attacks from Crisis (each Commander attack being worth 2 normal Crisis attacks) or 72 advanced targeting system melee attacks from Riptides to deal 4 damage to Ghaz, that's basically never going to happen. Kroot have 1 attack making them basically a shooting unit and Hounds wound on 6+ with no AP. Against Tau Ghaz is going to be unstoppable, not sure if he'll be an actual good pick despite that, he can still be tar-pitted by Shield Drones but destroying him is probably more hassle than it's worth. I wouldn't say tar-pitting him with Primaris is a good idea, that sounds like a good way to let Ghaz make himself useful. Wait until T3 and rock Assault Doctrine and 10 BA Intercessors do 4 unsaved wounds to Ghaz, same with 10 WS Intercessors. A RG thunderhammer Intercessor does 3 damage to Ghaz in Tactical Doctrine, between Overwatch and other melee damage you should be able to do another damage so you just need a total of 8 wounds with shooting. Armies shouldn't rely on dealing all their damage with Smite and not have the mobility to move around a smite screen, besides Grots are way more effective at screening smites than Ghaz and Thousand Sons have more powers available now with their free specialist detachments.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, any screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want. That's assuming civilization is continuing.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
I agree, it's an awesome model, there's going to be enough Ork players taking him for the rule of cool alone that that we'll see one of those top 4 at a 30+ player event and a chunk of them will go 3/2. Not within two months though, more like 9 because of the corona.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
Roberts84 wrote: That's exactly my point. He's too much of a badass to ignore, and he's too much of a sponge to clear, and is a massive waste of resources which he will force his opponent to waste because he has the most absurdly overpowered special rule the game has ever known.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.
Roberts84 wrote: That's exactly my point. He's too much of a badass to ignore, and he's too much of a sponge to clear, and is a massive waste of resources which he will force his opponent to waste because he has the most absurdly overpowered special rule the game has ever known.
Unreal.
So that's a yes to my wager, then? Or are you just writing words?
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.
That is awfully aggressive for an internet argument where everyone agrees that you're wrong. IMO Ghaz will be OK for casual play with a point drop, but there's no way he's doing well at a competitive level.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.
That is awfully aggressive for an internet argument where everyone agrees that you're wrong. IMO Ghaz will be OK for casual play with a point drop, but there's no way he's doing well at a competitive level.
If you're as sure as you say you are, you'll take the bet.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.
That is awfully aggressive for an internet argument where everyone agrees that you're wrong. IMO Ghaz will be OK for casual play with a point drop, but there's no way he's doing well at a competitive level.
If you're as sure as you say you are, you'd take the bet.
I don't see what we'd be betting other than being correct or not, but sure. inb4 Rober84 works at GW and is already drafting up a new Ghaz datasheet
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.
That is awfully aggressive for an internet argument where everyone agrees that you're wrong. IMO Ghaz will be OK for casual play with a point drop, but there's no way he's doing well at a competitive level.
If you're as sure as you say you are, you'd take the bet.
I don't see what we'd be betting other than being correct or not, but sure.
inb4 Rober84 works at GW and is already drafting up a new Ghaz datasheet
It's a sig bet. If I win, you have to wear any signature I write for a month. Same deal for me if you win. Well, I wear any signature you write for a month.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want.
Do it, I'll set myself a reminder to PM you when you're wrong.
You're not involved. Keep out of it. Unless you want some action too that is.
That is awfully aggressive for an internet argument where everyone agrees that you're wrong. IMO Ghaz will be OK for casual play with a point drop, but there's no way he's doing well at a competitive level.
If you're as sure as you say you are, you'd take the bet.
I don't see what we'd be betting other than being correct or not, but sure.
inb4 Rober84 works at GW and is already drafting up a new Ghaz datasheet
It's a sig bet. If I win, you have to wear any signature I write for a month. Same deal for me if you win.
I barely post, but as long as it goes by the rules of the site, sure.
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but [immediately starts Ork hate festiva]
Ghaz is awful. No competitive Ork list will feature him. Your assessment is about as wrong as wrong could be.
For reference, Ragnar has similar damage output (better against certain targets ie - Intercessor squads of more than 5, By screening unit), has far greater durability due to character protection and costs less than half the points.
Edit - if a Tau player cannot avoid a 7"-5" move unit with their flying mech suits that Tau player is not very good. How is this Ghaz' magically getting into combat reliably? Cus he ain't walking I can assure you.
Within two months(of his model release not sure if this has happened yet or not) we will start seeing competitive lists featuring him and winning. I'll sig bet you if you like. Whatever you want. That's assuming civilization is continuing.
Write it in your own sig if you like. I don't need to wait 2 months to tell you you're wrong. Here's as assessment by a better Ork player than me on Ghaz (posted before full book was shown by YouTubers, but there's nothing for Ghaz in there anyway);
https://www.grimdarkfilthycasuals.com/saga-of-the-beast-preview-faction-focus-orks/ Read his assessment and see what you think.
Also not sure how many competitive events you frequent but they generally don't happen in the middle of a global pandemic.
Just a simple thing for thought: as it was mentioned that one might have to "waste" a lot of firepower etc. on Ghaz, if you (as mentioned before) throw some cheap Guardsmen etc. at him, it's the same the other way around, isn't it? Sure he has incredible 5-7 x S14-S10, AP-4, D4 attacks, but it can likely happen that he gets swarmed by cheapish 1W models and has to waste all his attacks on killing them. And it is quite depressing to have a 300points CC monster have to kill a guardsmen 8 times over with every attack and due to lack of number of attacks he might not even be able to delete one squad per turn this way.
Pyroalchi wrote: Just a simple thing for thought: as it was mentioned that one might have to "waste" a lot of firepower etc. on Ghaz, if you (as mentioned before) throw some cheap Guardsmen etc. at him, it's the same the other way around, isn't it? Sure he has incredible 5-7 x S14-S10, AP-4, D4 attacks, but it can likely happen that he gets swarmed by cheapish 1W models and has to waste all his attacks on killing them. And it is quite depressing to have a 300points CC monster have to kill a guardsmen 8 times over with every attack and due to lack of number of attacks he might not even be able to delete one squad per turn this way.
And those models aren't holding objectives. You're also giving up points for all the units he's wiping. You could literally just stick him in the middle of the board and control the center for 3 turns while the rest of your units do...well, whatever they need to. Center board control matters. A lot. I do take your point though, against things like Pox Walkers or really anything with garbage mobs he's gonna get tied up. However anyone who says he's not going to be a problem for Tau and space marines armies should basically be dismissed out of hand. Scouts are not suited to that task. I'd say he's a pretty big threat for necrons, too--because they tend to kind of quasi-castle and Basically, anything that doesn't have cheap chaff spam and/or doesn't move much is going to have a really bad day dealing with him. Ditto anything melee-heavy. He's an amazing unit for the points. That will be proven in the coming months.
Pyroalchi wrote: Just a simple thing for thought: as it was mentioned that one might have to "waste" a lot of firepower etc. on Ghaz, if you (as mentioned before) throw some cheap Guardsmen etc. at him, it's the same the other way around, isn't it? Sure he has incredible 5-7 x S14-S10, AP-4, D4 attacks, but it can likely happen that he gets swarmed by cheapish 1W models and has to waste all his attacks on killing them. And it is quite depressing to have a 300points CC monster have to kill a guardsmen 8 times over with every attack and due to lack of number of attacks he might not even be able to delete one squad per turn this way.
And those models aren't holding objectives. You're also giving up points for all the units he's wiping. You could literally just stick him in the middle of the board and control the center for 3 turns while the rest of your units do...well, whatever they need to. Center board control matters. A lot. I do take your point though, against things like Pox Walkers or really anything with garbage mobs he's gonna get tied up. However anyone who says he's not going to be a problem for Tau and space marines armies should basically be dismissed out of hand. Scouts are not suited to that task. I'd say he's a pretty big threat for necrons, too--because they tend to kind of quasi-castle and Basically, anything that doesn't have cheap chaff spam and/or doesn't move much is going to have a really bad day dealing with him.
You *could* stick him in the centre and control it for 3 turns. But unfortunately most armies have objective secured under another name, which will likely put a dampener in any hopes of Ghaz controlling any objective against good tarpitting units afaik. Also I'm pretty sure that space marines would be an army with a relatively easy time dealing with Ghaz since they are definitely capable of dealing 4 wounds a round in shooting and melee. That leaves Ghaz with one round of combat to do nearly 300 points of damage, assuming the SM playing isn't bringing psykers.
Pyroalchi wrote: Just a simple thing for thought: as it was mentioned that one might have to "waste" a lot of firepower etc. on Ghaz, if you (as mentioned before) throw some cheap Guardsmen etc. at him, it's the same the other way around, isn't it? Sure he has incredible 5-7 x S14-S10, AP-4, D4 attacks, but it can likely happen that he gets swarmed by cheapish 1W models and has to waste all his attacks on killing them. And it is quite depressing to have a 300points CC monster have to kill a guardsmen 8 times over with every attack and due to lack of number of attacks he might not even be able to delete one squad per turn this way.
And those models aren't holding objectives. You're also giving up points for all the units he's wiping. You could literally just stick him in the middle of the board and control the center for 3 turns while the rest of your units do...well, whatever they need to. Center board control matters. A lot. I do take your point though, against things like Pox Walkers or really anything with garbage mobs he's gonna get tied up. However anyone who says he's not going to be a problem for Tau and space marines armies should basically be dismissed out of hand. Scouts are not suited to that task. I'd say he's a pretty big threat for necrons, too--because they tend to kind of quasi-castle and Basically, anything that doesn't have cheap chaff spam and/or doesn't move much is going to have a really bad day dealing with him.
You *could* stick him in the centre and control it for 3 turns. But unfortunately most armies have objective secured under another name, which will likely put a dampener in any hopes of Ghaz controlling any objective against good tarpitting units afaik. Also I'm pretty sure that space marines would be an army with a relatively easy time dealing with Ghaz since they are definitely capable of dealing 4 wounds a round in shooting and melee. That leaves Ghaz with one round of combat to do nearly 300 points of damage, assuming the SM playing isn't bringing psykers.
With a 4+ invuln and T7? Not really. He'll take a lot of plinking, and while that's happening, other stuff is doing other stuff. What units are you talking about, exactly? Intercessors? Because that's what everyone is going to be taking. He'll wipe out ten of them in the fight back-phase guaranteed. They might not even take off two wounds from him with chainswords which is what they're going to be kitted out with.
People are thinking in a far too lineal way about him.
On the other Hand there are far more phases you can make damage to him than you would think... just from an IG Point of view:
IG Turn:
before the game starts: preliminary bombardment for 1/2 mortal wound
Shooting Phase (obvious, by the way a normal Leman Russ (not even a tank commander) without any orders, rerolls, stratagems or doctrines with battlecannon, Plasma Sponsons and a Lascannon does 5 wounds to him for 174 Points if I'm not wrong)
Psychic Phase: a singly Primaris Psyker can well do 4 wounds between Smite and Psychic Maelstrom.
Charge Phase: with the new Psychic awakening stratagem each charging Ogryn/Bullgryn has a 50% Chance of doing a mortal wound, Tanks in an Emperors fist Company can do D3 Mortals
Fight Phase: the Basic 3 Bullgryn Squad does on average 4 wounds to him
Enemy turn:
Movement Phase: when Ghaz arrives from Tellyporta it should be possible to shoot him with Scions with the superior Intelligence stratagem
Shooting Phase: destroyed vehicles (especially Hellhounds) can do Mortals
Charge Phase: Vicious Traps Stratagem has 50% Chance of D3 wounds
fight Phase: damage from exploding vehicles and potentially "fire on my Position" if he kills infantry squads with Vox.
That's quite a few ways of damaging him and I'm sure there are more.
flandarz wrote: I think if you're playing an army that has good options for dealinf damage in every Phase of your turn, you shouldn't have any issues with Ghaz. It you're rocking Tau? Yeah, you might have some problems. But then you just change up your game plan, like everyone has to do when your opponent fields something that's "too tough to crack". You work on killing off the easy stuff to kill (and this is Orkz, so that's basically everything) and holding Objectives. If you ignore Ghaz, or tie him up with even a kind of expensive unit (you really just need about 10 models to hold him for a round, so about 170 pts for Intercessors), you're effectively playing a 2k vs 1700 pt game.
I don't think smart Tau should have any problems with Ghaz. They have enough useful Melee units to finish him in my experience...
Completely disagree, it takes 108 advanced targeting system melee attacks from Crisis (each Commander attack being worth 2 normal Crisis attacks) or 72 advanced targeting system melee attacks from Riptides to deal 4 damage to Ghaz, that's basically never going to happen. Kroot have 1 attack making them basically a shooting unit and Hounds wound on 6+ with no AP. Against Tau Ghaz is going to be unstoppable, not sure if he'll be an actual good pick despite that, he can still be tar-pitted by Shield Drones but destroying him is probably more hassle than it's worth. I wouldn't say tar-pitting him with Primaris is a good idea, that sounds like a good way to let Ghaz make himself useful. Wait until T3 and rock Assault Doctrine and 10 BA Intercessors do 4 unsaved wounds to Ghaz, same with 10 WS Intercessors. A RG thunderhammer Intercessor does 3 damage to Ghaz in Tactical Doctrine, between Overwatch and other melee damage you should be able to do another damage so you just need a total of 8 wounds with shooting. Armies shouldn't rely on dealing all their damage with Smite and not have the mobility to move around a smite screen, besides Grots are way more effective at screening smites than Ghaz and Thousand Sons have more powers available now with their free specialist detachments.
I mean, Fusion Blades on a Coldstar reduce those numbers by an amount. But that's only happening if he's almost dead and Tau have a Farsight detachment.(unlikely)
I think I should have been clearer though. Tau have good units for dealing with a melee threat like Ghaz. 80 points of Kroot + whatever he hit first doesn't make a favorable trade for Orks. Especially for 4 rounds of play. And he shouldn't be getting anywhere near valuable stuff.
To those saying it is bad game design... I disagree, it is bloody great game design, as it is requiring you to think and plan and change how you play instead of resorting to the same point and click methods you are used to.
To Roberts84... thread like this are why Dakkadakka has a bad reputation, and why I am only venturing away from the Painting boards due to Corona boredom.
What you are saying is fine, even though I disagree, but the way you are saying it is horrible.
I'm sure you'll tell yourself that either I am wrong, or that everyone else is just as bad, but ask yourself this... Why would I, a neutral party who has, to the best of my recollection, never interacted with you before, say this?
I mean, I've seen worse on Dakka, but this is not good.
Roberts84 wrote: With a 4+ invuln and T7? Not really. He'll take a lot of plinking, and while that's happening, other stuff is doing other stuff. What units are you talking about, exactly? Intercessors? Because that's what everyone is going to be taking. He'll wipe out ten of them in the fight back-phase guaranteed. They might not even take off two wounds from him with chainswords which is what they're going to be kitted out with.
People are thinking in a far too lineal way about him.
As a Nid player, T7 with 4++ is NOT hard to land damage on, in a 2k list i'd expect to lose a hive tyrant + another MC a turn at the minimum. Hell the other play will max the 4 and then that fire power is dismantling the rest of your list without a 4++ to soak up the damage!
Seems to me you're so obsessed with one rule of Ghaz (the 4 wounds per phase) and are going absolutely nuts proclaiming the sky is falling and he will run rampant competitively whilst ignoring all valid counter points. And believe me you really are alone in this thread debating Ghaz is competitive. He's fun, he'll do some damage in casual and then be easily figured out how to handle.
Dude, relax. Coming in here all fire and brimstone and being aggressively argumentative will change no ones view. I can't even work out what you hoped to gain from this post.
Fifty wrote: To those saying it is bad game design... I disagree, it is bloody great game design, as it is requiring you to think and plan and change how you play instead of resorting to the same point and click methods you are used to.
You mean I can’t just kamikaze a smash captain into him to kill him? How dare you suggest I need to plan with slightly more nuance. What kind of game do you think you’re playing?
In all seriousness I like this rule with a unit over 10+ wounds. It cuts down on some of the crazy things like knights, smash captains, or insert deep strike and delete strategies. Even better is that you usually can’t use a fight after death ability to take him down with you. The only time I see it being bad is if he’s in a mirror matchup. Two Ghaz’s fighting each other will need at least three turns to kill each other.
How long do you think it will take for him to renege on his bet by finding some obscure local tournament that has Ghaz in one of the "top" winning lists to validate his (wrong) opinion and then disregard everything else like ITC or LVO results? I mean he hasnt given an actual rebuttal or counter point to other people besides ad hominems so why would he actually follow through with his bet?
I really don't like the "can only do X wounds a turn" thing, but aside from that, with Ghaz at 12 wounds (and somehow growing to be bigger than a Primarch) he's much more easily engaged than most characters, and doesn't really do much that a much cheaper Warboss won't do.
Roberts84 wrote: With a 4+ invuln and T7? Not really. He'll take a lot of plinking, and while that's happening, other stuff is doing other stuff. What units are you talking about, exactly? Intercessors? Because that's what everyone is going to be taking. He'll wipe out ten of them in the fight back-phase guaranteed. They might not even take off two wounds from him with chainswords which is what they're going to be kitted out with.
People are thinking in a far too lineal way about him.
As a Nid player, T7 with 4++ is NOT hard to land damage on, in a 2k list i'd expect to lose a hive tyrant + another MC a turn at the minimum. Hell the other play will max the 4 and then that fire power is dismantling the rest of your list without a 4++ to soak up the damage!
Seems to me you're so obsessed with one rule of Ghaz (the 4 wounds per phase) and are going absolutely nuts proclaiming the sky is falling and he will run rampant competitively whilst ignoring all valid counter points. And believe me you really are alone in this thread debating Ghaz is competitive. He's fun, he'll do some damage in casual and then be easily figured out how to handle.
Dude, relax. Coming in here all fire and brimstone and being aggressively argumentative will change no ones view. I can't even work out what you hoped to gain from this post.
He hoped to get exactly this argument, like many of us he’s probably at home and bored. Personally I can’t believe I’ve read through this whole pointless thread! Then posted!!
All models have a hard cap on how many wounds they can take. This often leads to wasted shots. Sure, most models are removed from the table for the rest of the game after receiving this number of wounds, but not all of them. Guilliman among overs can take a hard cap number of wounds and keep fighting.
Hell, keeping fighting after losing all wounds is a strat that already exists in the ork codex. Ghazghkull just takes it up a level.
He’ll kill maybe 5-7 models per combat phase. All the rule does is allow him a chance at two combat phases before he dies. From that perspective the rule does exactly what it was designed to do, awkward as it may be.
Ghaz is currently so OP that standing upstairs or behind a ruin defeats him The only army I can think of that would struggle with Ghaz is pure IK, as they would have inefficient guns and melee for plinking 4 wounds off, but they could still outrun him.
I have been Farsight Enclaves Tau for a while, I do not think that I would field fusion blades in a tournament. And if I saw Ghaz, it would be a nice challenge to pop him in less than 3 turns.
I am not sure why someone has their panties in a bunch over a 300pt model. Its good, but I'm far more worried about a leviathan dreadnought. Turn 1, I could lose 8 drones to that dread! If Ghaz walks, I'm ignoring him after I devote enough guns to give him 4 wounds. That's what 1/10th my army? If he teleports, I'm assuming there's a 30 Ork Da Jump that's charging first... then I'm gonna get worried for a moment. Then its back to kiting him while dealing with more Da Jumps each turn.
I think the mechanic is nice, maybe instead there should be a stratagem that for 1cp or 2cp, if this is the first time a model would die, it instead does not die and continues play with 1 wound. 8th edition everything dies too quickly, and some times its a better game when not everything is tissue paper.
Sazzlefrats wrote: I have been Farsight Enclaves Tau for a while, I do not think that I would field fusion blades in a tournament. And if I saw Ghaz, it would be a nice challenge to pop him in less than 3 turns.
I am not sure why someone has their panties in a bunch over a 300pt model. Its good, but I'm far more worried about a leviathan dreadnought. Turn 1, I could lose 8 drones to that dread! If Ghaz walks, I'm ignoring him after I devote enough guns to give him 4 wounds. That's what 1/10th my army? If he teleports, I'm assuming there's a 30 Ork Da Jump that's charging first... then I'm gonna get worried for a moment. Then its back to kiting him while dealing with more Da Jumps each turn.
I think the mechanic is nice, maybe instead there should be a stratagem that for 1cp or 2cp, if this is the first time a model would die, it instead does not die and continues play with 1 wound. 8th edition everything dies too quickly, and some times its a better game when not everything is tissue paper.
I agree offense is too high, but Ghaz's rule is a band-aid. I'd rather a general toning down of offense on the whole than individual quick-fixes.
Sazzlefrats wrote: I have been Farsight Enclaves Tau for a while, I do not think that I would field fusion blades in a tournament. And if I saw Ghaz, it would be a nice challenge to pop him in less than 3 turns.
I am not sure why someone has their panties in a bunch over a 300pt model. Its good, but I'm far more worried about a leviathan dreadnought. Turn 1, I could lose 8 drones to that dread! If Ghaz walks, I'm ignoring him after I devote enough guns to give him 4 wounds. That's what 1/10th my army? If he teleports, I'm assuming there's a 30 Ork Da Jump that's charging first... then I'm gonna get worried for a moment. Then its back to kiting him while dealing with more Da Jumps each turn.
I think the mechanic is nice, maybe instead there should be a stratagem that for 1cp or 2cp, if this is the first time a model would die, it instead does not die and continues play with 1 wound. 8th edition everything dies too quickly, and some times its a better game when not everything is tissue paper.
I agree offense is too high, but Ghaz's rule is a band-aid. I'd rather a general toning down of offense on the whole than individual quick-fixes.
That'll be 9th edition if 8th isn't going to be a living ruleset for the future. For a while they had a nice balance in 4th edition and early 5th. Until deathstars...
Maybe they should have made Ghaz so that 1. 9 wounds, so he can't be targeted unless closest, and 2. Once per game when Ghaz takes his last wound, immediately place him in combat with the closest legal opponent unit, ghaz fights first, and has 1d3 wounds remaining. That would make him worth 300pts.
Sazzlefrats wrote: Maybe they should have made Ghaz so that 1. 9 wounds, so he can't be targeted unless closest, and 2. Once per game when Ghaz takes his last wound, immediately place him in combat with the closest legal opponent unit, ghaz fights first, and has 1d3 wounds remaining. That would make him worth 300pts.
I'd make it closest legal opponent within 6" or so.
Otherwise, he could (in theory) teleport clear across the map to engage the Leman Russ that just blasted him from 40" away, if everything else was dead.
There's only one single world in which Ghaz is good.
You bring him and nothing but Morkanauts. Rush them all down the table. If any of the models touch you, I automatically win.
As literally everyone else has said, he's not OP. T7 and invul 4 is not difficult to get through. The only feel bad with his four wound max is if you shoot a lascanon at him and roll a 5-6 instead of a 4. Big whoop
Roberts84 wrote: OK, I'm not trying start an Ork hate festival here, but Ghaz is flat-out broken. I'm also reading his data from saga of the beast from Belle of lost souls, so if this has been redacted or something I apologize. Just going on the information I have.
Firstly, no unit in the game should ever have a cap on how many wounds they can take per phase. This literally breaks the system, because anything attacking him will have to gamble wasting firepower on him due to the very real--indeed, probable, outcome that they will waste wounds should they exceed that cap. This is compounded by the fact that because he's got a 4+ invuln and 12 wounds (Holy gak BTW) that enemies will have to sink lots of attacks into him. Add to this a 6+ FNP with a banner and it gets even more bananas. Oh--and he's fething T7 along for the bargain.
12W hidden behind invul 4++ and 6+++ fnp, is weaksauce in current shooty meta, its really not much...
HOWEVER, maxium 4 wounds per phase is so retaarded, its undescribeable, so eldar as a prime example is gonna have it fairly easy, where as World eaters, Blood Angels, Wolves, Tau, generally lists and/or armies that are focusing on 1 phase mainly are gonna struggle the rule is gonna be such a pain in the ass, like free fallback levels of stupid, and in small points games, lord have mercy with that godmode mechanic. They shoud have given him 3++ invul with 5+++ fnp instead. Atleast it would seem like they tried making rules instead of breaking them.
Vaktathi wrote: I really don't like the "can only do X wounds a turn" thing, but aside from that, with Ghaz at 12 wounds (and somehow growing to be bigger than a Primarch) he's much more easily engaged than most characters, and doesn't really do much that a much cheaper Warboss won't do.
At least Orks have a stated rationale for why he's so large.
Where does Guilliman sleep? How does he get onto transports like Thunderhawks? Where does he go to the bathroom? What if there is an important meeting with the High Lords he has to go to but the conference room only has doors that are 10 feet high? My questions are endless.
Elfric wrote: Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?
You don't have to beat him.
Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.
If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.
Elfric wrote: I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat
I don't know if that's a useful question. This isn't a pit fight. It's a battle.
However...
Archons are known to be able to punch well above their weight class when they're lucky with their Shadowfield. Of course, you can't rely on "being lucky". How good is Gazh at dishing out mortal wounds?
Elfric wrote: Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?
You don't have to beat him.
Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.
If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.
Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.
Elfric wrote: Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?
You don't have to beat him.
Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.
If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.
Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.
...But he really super isn't though. The main reason that I'm not planning on using Ghazghkull is that, pointswise, he's pretty damn close to a gorkanaut, who puts him to absolute shame in melee because the gorkanaut can decide to go for 18 Ap-2 D2 attacks optionally. 5A S14 Ap-4 D4 sounds bonkers until you realize that he can't get through any screen.
Blood Angel smash captain is on average more effective than ghazghkull and costs less than 1/2 the points. "best melee unit in the game" is just hideous hyperbole.
Also Necrons can do mortal wounds at the end of the movement phase with CTan (which are a more popular pick). So that, plus shooting, and then tie up with Wraiths in melee. It isn't difficult.
Elfric wrote: Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?
You don't have to beat him.
Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.
If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.
Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.
...But he really super isn't though. The main reason that I'm not planning on using Ghazghkull is that, pointswise, he's pretty damn close to a gorkanaut, who puts him to absolute shame in melee because the gorkanaut can decide to go for 18 Ap-2 D2 attacks optionally. 5A S14 Ap-4 D4 sounds bonkers until you realize that he can't get through any screen.
Blood Angel smash captain is on average more effective than ghazghkull and costs less than 1/2 the points. "best melee unit in the game" is just hideous hyperbole.
A naut doesn't have a wound cap however. Again, Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase. That's what makes him a melee monster, not simply his damage output. I'm yet to hear anyone explain how he isn't going to cause havoc to castles.
Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes. I mean for feths sake he cant even advance and charge when everything around him can
Billagio wrote: Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.
He can teleport.
Ok, let's put it this way:
Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?
Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it
Elfric wrote: Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?
You don't have to beat him.
Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.
If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.
Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.
Ghaz is a decent duellist thanks to the 4 wound limit but that's it, no way is he the final word in melee. Any large unit with an invul save (i.e. bloodletters) will happily wait out 3 rounds to finish him off, and there are plenty of characters who could solo him in one turn - Nightbringer can cause mortals in the movement phase, wound on a 2+ in the shooting phase, and then do the same but also ignoring invuls in the fight phase - and c'tan are not even considered that good.
Billagio wrote: Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it
Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.
Billagio wrote: Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it
Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.
Edit: He's got a painboy too.
I mean, theyre boyz so shoot them? Id rather have 300 points of boyz than 300 points of Ghaz. Its pretty clear youre not going to change your mind and are stuck in your ways (despite clearly having never played orks). Lets just wait and see what major tournament lists/results churn out in a few months (assuming no changes to him)
They wanted a way to have a character with enough wounds to match his size, but without losing character protection. So 4 wounds per phase is where they settled.
Who could defeat him solo? A unit of 30 ork boys. A unit of 30 anythings. sure, he'll kill 4 of them a turn, but it ill take him all game.
Solo, he's not a great unit. He will make a decent sheepdog (opposite of kiting), and a bit of a fire magnet, save the fact that he will only draw 4 wounds of damage and then the enemy will focus on something else.
His best use is getting into combat with the scariest stuff - a titan dealing 6 damage per blow - yeah, well, that sounds like a waste!
If he gets in CC with chaff or screens, you've probably used him wrong.
Billagio wrote: Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it
Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.
Edit: He's got a painboy too.
Painboys don't work on him, unless you're referring to Makari who likely won't teleport with him.
Billagio wrote: Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it
Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.
Yup, only with a stratagem and more importantly, it's incredibly unlikely that the Painboy will be within range if you deepstrike him, and more importantly, if you're footslogging instead, D3 healed wounds won't be enough to ensure his survival over sustained fire/psychic attacks, since you're basically adding 1-3 wounds to his wound total at best before he bites it.
I like how he keeps bringing up the wound cap over and over as the end all be all, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Roberts84 wrote: [Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.
If he's up against my 1 psyker DA list here's what will happen.
Best Case:
T1. Ghaz isn't on the table.
T2. Ghaz drops in and gets forced to make a 12" charge due to my Infiltrators hiding in a magic box. In this case, I shoot 4 wounds off him, feed him a unit of scouts, shoot 4 more wounds off of him the next turn, and then ram a 5 strong unit of DW Knights down his throat or feed him another unit and shoot his last wounds off. In this case, he eats 140 points of scouts plus whatever his shooting does.
Average Case:
T1. Ghaz isn't on the table.
T2. Ghaz drops in and gets forced to make a 9" charge. He makes it, eats some scouts. Then it goes the same as before only with him killing 210 points of models.
If he charges anything important they get transhuman physiology for the turn, plus the minimum 5++ invulnerable save, and then we repeat the cycle. This all assumes no smites, no overwatch, and no damage done to Ghaz in melee by the units he's attacking.
It really doesn't matter how BIG Ghaz's numbers are or how unkillable he is. His movement profile and size dictate that he will rarely ever charge the unit that he actually wants to charge. He has a massive base, can't fly, can't advance and charge, can't go through building and walls, can't go up multiple levels of ruins and can't relocate again after the initial deep strike.
The monster keyword is more of a curse than a benefit for him
Billagio wrote: Fall back and kill him the next turn because all he did was charge some fire warriors/necron warriors. And thats assuming he makes the charge because he has a less than 50% chance of doing it
Cool. And what about the 20 boyz that roll up on you while that's happening? Or what if your screen is already dead because they were kitted out with Big Choppas and Klaws and they've hosed them off the board, and then Ghaz teleports in, makes the charge, and is all up in your suits'/arks/ HQ's gak? Are you going to keep falling back until you're off the board, scoring no objectives at all? Because once he's locked it up, you're not shooting him, and you don't have any psychic. So that leaves Melee in which you can do a Maximum of 4 wounds, and nothing to anything else.
Edit: He's got a painboy too.
I mean, theyre boyz so shoot them? Id rather have 300 points of boyz than 300 points of Ghaz. Its pretty clear youre not going to change your mind and are stuck in your ways (despite clearly having never played orks). Lets just wait and see what major tournament lists/results churn out in a few months (assuming no changes to him)
Billagio wrote: Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.
He can teleport.
Ok, let's put it this way:
Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?
Less than 50% chance to make that charge. You better 300 pts on that?
Billagio wrote: Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.
He can teleport.
Ok, let's put it this way:
Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?
Less than 50% chance to make that charge. You better 300 pts on that?
Don't Tell him that alpha Legion berzerkers do that better then him allready, else he has an existential crisis.
One unit... hmmm 9 Bullgryns with Slabshields
They charge and use "Furious Charge" (1CP) => 4.5 Mortals
They attack in the fight phase easily doing 4 more wounds.
He is now down to 4 wounds, so has 6 x S6 attacks. On average he hits 5 of those, wounds 10/3 and 5/3 of those get through the Slabshields, killing two Bullgryns.
The next fight phase he kills another two on average.
The remaining 5 Bullgryns, still having 16 attacks kill him in his fight phase.
Shooting at him? Wrong! The rest of the army, including world-beating units of ORK BOYZ, are rolling up to you unchecked and will destroy your whole army.
Knowing this, how about you ignore him and focus on the rest of the Ork army instead? Wrong again! Now GHAZ is hurtling towards you at supersonic speeds of 10.5" per turn, and will destroy your whole army.
Trying to tie him up with chaff? Somehow you managed to get it wrong AGAIN! With his 5 - 7 attacks he will wipe out whole units of 10+ models in one go (?). You walked right into his trap!
Falling back and finishing him off? Well done, you just ceded the whole board, cannot claim any objectives, and to be honest may as well just sweep your whole army onto the floor.
Billagio wrote: Look dude, if you get him in melee with what he wants to fight (expensive single/low model count units) hes great. But fact is he isnt getting there easily, its very easy to screen you gak especially if youre know youre playing orks because we deepstrike all the time. Other option is to run up the board where he will get shot down in a turn or 2 before ever reaching his target, and when he does its more screening units to deal with. For 300 points he is NOT good. You will not see im in competitive lists that place top in major tournaments unless he gets big changes.
He can teleport.
Ok, let's put it this way:
Say you have a Tau or Necrons castle. Ghaz teleports and charges it. He takes 4 wounds ( amazingl) in overwatch and then he's smack bang up against your lines. What's your strategy at that point?
Ghaz kills 4 fire warriors. I fall back, shoot him with a riptide, and then wait for him to charge my fire warriors/drones again, where I will happily kill him in overwatch, having lost maaaaaybe 80pts to his 285?
I'm still waiting for a legitimate reason as to why Ghaz isn't a waste of points? People are pointing out that his damage output isn't particularly staggering and your response is "aha - but he is amazingly durable, for the points!!!11one" then, when people point out that he's not particularly durable you go back to claiming that his damage output is incredible (when backed up by approximately 300-500 points of other units).
You obviously don't understand Ghaz's rules, or Ork rules in general. Your repeated rule mistakes ('he can use Painboy', 'Fight twice', 'Advance and charge' etc) prove this. You have no real idea how good (or bad) Ghaz is because I dare say you don't really understand what being a [MONSTER] means in the context of the Ork ruleset.
I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.
It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.
Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.
40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.
But seriously, people. Get a grip.
Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.
Roberts84 wrote: I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.
It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.
Over enough rolls the variance is low. Take a course in stats and probability and you'll see this.
Also, if it's all luck why are some players consistently playing at the top tables while others never win a game?
There are stats to suggest that "good" 40k players beat "less competitive" 40k players regularly though? Like to a huge degree as well, not some close run thing, like the top 50 at LVO had a 80+% win rate against those who weren't also in the top 50.
Either way it's a bit of a random complaint given you made this topic presumably to discuss Ghaz and why he's OP.
I agree this topic should be closed, create it again in a few months if you're proven right, otherwise keep your head down and hope people have forgotten this thread the next time you post.
Oh a new character, must be OP I guess because he has an ability new to 40k.
Hardly.
It’s a 300 point handicap that could be spent better elsewhere.
He’s slow and doesn’t really add a great deal.
If he’s walking then even just wounding him in the shooting phase won’t be an issue as he’s slow.
People panic far too quickly when seeing something new.
Also, the whole “what about the rest of the army” is kind of moot.
This statement implies you have to shoot your entire army at him to cause 4 wounds, which isn’t close to true.
He’s also a large chunk of that army too.
Roberts84 wrote: I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.
It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.
Over enough rolls the variance is low. Take a course in stats and probability and you'll see this.
Also, if it's all luck why are some players consistently playing at the top tables while others never win a game?
You do you, 5th. But as an ex-WOW player yourself, you should know 40K doesn't even begin to approximate the difficulty of ranked Arena competition. And I think you do know that.
Roberts84 wrote: I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.
It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.
Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.
40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.
But seriously, people. Get a grip.
Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.
I wonder if you would have said the same thing if everyone in the thread just agreed with you
Most sports have random elements in them, whether a coin toss or pitch conditions. I don’t know why you’re trying to discredit randomness; adaptability and contingency planning are skills invoked by having a degree of randomness.
Also, it’s detached from Ghazghkull’s wound cap mechanic. Taking 0-4 wounds per phase is a reduction of randomness compared to taking 0-12 wounds per phase as the outcomes are more predictable.
I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.
Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth
Yazima wrote: I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.
Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth
Keep it open for 2 months at the very least, I need to prove OP wrong.
In answer to the “who can solo Ghaz??” I give you a whole bunch of GK characters who can conceivably kill him by themselves in A SINGLE TURN, for 150-225ish points. Grandmaster dreadknights have the best chance because they hit harder and have more guns, at the top of that price range. Blob of 10 interceptors or 300 pts of paladins work too
Psychic Phase: cast “Inner Fire” for an easy 4 wounds.
Shooting phase: shoot super-charged psycannon/psilencer for 4 more, re-roll wounds against monsters strat
Fight phase: daemonhammers pick up the last 4 wounds
Obviously this is idealized in terms of being in range/not screened and a lot of CP expenditure, but then again I’d have 2k of options for each phase, not 200 covering all three.
But even if it takes 3 turns to kill him, so what? Tau and Guard have been dealing with this problem as long as they have existed.
SemperMortis wrote: Bud you read this one bass ackwards to say the least. No competitive ork player is going to take Ghaz. For 1 CP and a relic you can get an 80pt Warboss with almost as good of abilities and damage output. On top of that, the warboss is character protected.
Turn 1 against any army in the game that can shoot Ghaz loses 4 wounds. In the psychic phase he has a chance of losing 4 more, don't forget some armies can do damage in the movement phase, in the charge phase you can shoot him and a lot of armies have decent overwatch abilities, in CC he isn't invulnerable, T7 with a 4++ save is good but not hard to kill. If you can't kill Ghaz in 2 turns your army is garbage.
It just about killing Ghaz. It's about the fact to ensure you kill Ghaz, you have to devote huge amounts of resources to do that whilst ignoring other units. Units which are going to roll up and wrap you. If you fail to kill him before that happens, then you're not killing him 2/3 phases. If you're not killing him 2/3 phases then you're probably not killing him.
Only being able to take 4 wounds is the best ability the game has ever seen.
You devote exactly enough resources to do 4 wounds to him, then you ignore him.
lol you're a genius!
Tell me; how do you know exactly how many resources that is? Crystal ball?
Math and statistics. Of course with dice rolling nothing is water-tight but you can reasonably esitmate how much you'll need. Then take about 20% extra to cover for bad rolls and you can efficiently dispose of him while wasting only a minimum of resources. I'm still going to get him sooner or later though, model looks just too Gorkdamn good to leave it sitting on the shelf. But he's very far from OP. Only real niche he has is if someone mispositions a Knight or somesuch and Ghazzy kan deepstrike in, pray to Gork he makes the charge and then krump it. Then again, an Evil Sunz Big Boss with Da Killa Klaw and Brutal but Kunnin' has the same damage output for a third of Ghazzy's price and has a 72% chance to make the charge instead of Ghazzy's ~50%. I think he'll be fine in a casual game though, especially if you go up against Guard or Tau who don't have a lot of ways to deal significant damage to Ghazzy outside of the shooting phase.
Pyroalchi wrote: One unit... hmmm 9 Bullgryns with Slabshields
They charge and use "Furious Charge" (1CP) => 4.5 Mortals
They attack in the fight phase easily doing 4 more wounds.
He is now down to 4 wounds, so has 6 x S6 attacks. On average he hits 5 of those, wounds 10/3 and 5/3 of those get through the Slabshields, killing two Bullgryns.
The next fight phase he kills another two on average.
The remaining 5 Bullgryns, still having 16 attacks kill him in his fight phase.
7 attacks S12 - wounds on 2s. You forgot he is Goff as well.
7 * 1.167 * .998 * .833 * .833 = 5 to 6 bullgryns dead. LD8, so a small chance to lose one. Next turn he wipes them.
BrianDavion wrote: the 4 damage per phase is reasonably easy to handle, no you can't auto delete ghaz in one turn but... thats a good thing
Exactly this keeps the Kid who just bough his expensive ghazzy model from being picked up turn 1.
That said...... IF i'm tau bring the big guy.... He's dead on turn three for all septs except Farsight Enclaves. Farsight gets him on two possibly.
Pyroalchi wrote: One unit... hmmm 9 Bullgryns with Slabshields They charge and use "Furious Charge" (1CP) => 4.5 Mortals They attack in the fight phase easily doing 4 more wounds. He is now down to 4 wounds, so has 6 x S6 attacks. On average he hits 5 of those, wounds 10/3 and 5/3 of those get through the Slabshields, killing two Bullgryns. The next fight phase he kills another two on average. The remaining 5 Bullgryns, still having 16 attacks kill him in his fight phase.
7 attacks S12 - wounds on 2s. You forgot he is Goff as well.
7 * 1.167 * .998 * .833 * .833 = 5 to 6 bullgryns dead. LD8, so a small chance to lose one. Next turn he wipes them.
That's at 1-3 wounds, not at 4.
And he only gets the Goff bonus in a pure Goff detachment. Do you really want to gimp an entire detachment just so Ghaz hits a little harder?
Edit: Also, they have a 4+ invuln.
So it's...
6 attacks 6 hits (35/36 is close enough to 1 that I'll call it 6) 5 wounds 2.5 unsaved 2-3 dead Bullgryns.
Either surrounded by gobs of bikes and boyz or oversaturated with melee vehicles so as to force shots on to Ghaz in lieu of going after vehicles. Evil Sunz BBs with a 15" + 4.5" + advance and charge on top of needing to shoot a deepstriking Ghaz? Seems like a slightly tall order.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Or you can Deep Strike something more useful for 300 points.
Yeah, drop a gork back there and its much more disruptable. Shame cause hes such a good model
Oh yeah don't get me wrong model wise he's amazing design. When it comes to rules he's the epitome of terrible design.
1. He does not benefit from his own Advance + Charge aura compared to all other Warboss variants
2. He only gives extra attacks to Orks on the charge. Orks don't NEED more attacks, they already have a lot. That's like if GW decided to create a Character that gave Berserker Marines extra attacks: yeah they would like it but they absolutely don't need it
3. The gun is lame, as it doesn't do anything amazing. They could've made it S6 D2 and nobody would care, as at least he would wound GEQ on a 2+ and kill Primaris in one shot. Either that or they could've made it 20 shots
I mean, there's a reason why the GW Facebook page had to delete a bunch of comments on the rules preview for him.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Or you can Deep Strike something more useful for 300 points.
Yeah, drop a gork back there and its much more disruptable. Shame cause hes such a good model
Oh yeah don't get me wrong model wise he's amazing design. When it comes to rules he's the epitome of terrible design.
1. He does not benefit from his own Advance + Charge aura compared to all other Warboss variants
2. He only gives extra attacks to Orks on the charge. Orks don't NEED more attacks, they already have a lot. That's like if GW decided to create a Character that gave Berserker Marines extra attacks: yeah they would like it but they absolutely don't need it
3. The gun is lame, as it doesn't do anything amazing. They could've made it S6 D2 and nobody would care, as at least he would wound GEQ on a 2+ and kill Primaris in one shot. Either that or they could've made it 20 shots
I mean, there's a reason why the GW Facebook page had to delete a bunch of comments on the rules preview for him.
Well at least that means they know they wrote crap rules for him and theres hope theyll at least FAQ the aura
Roberts84 wrote: I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.
It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.
Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.
40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.
But seriously, people. Get a grip.
Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.
Roberts84 wrote: I feel like people in this thread are operating under the delusion that they're playing a real sport when they play 40K 'competitively'.
It's literally a dice game. It's a lottery augmented by variables. The game doesn't matter, because it's only about skill to an extremely limited degree, and this would only not be the case if there were no dice involved, which there is. Rolls win games. Not players. Rolls, and strength of units. It doesn't take skill, nor intelligence, to throw dice, and it doesn't take skill nor intelligence to field as many OP units as possible. In 40k, you could do everything right and still lose due to bad, or good rolls.
Circuit 40K is, excuse me, the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, and there is literally not a single 'pro' 40K player I respect. Anything that relies on random outcomes to determine results isn't a sport. Not even an esport. It's not like competition WOW/dota/ LOL /whatever. In those games you don't have randomness to thank or to blame.
40K is just a great game that's really fething fun to play and collect. In fact I doubt it was ever intended for competition play.After a certain point, the more seriously people take it in terms of comp, the stupider it, and its players, get. Obviously that doesn't mean people can't be better or worse at it, and that it isn't fun to build and think about competitive lists.
But seriously, people. Get a grip.
Anyway, I'll request this thread which has rapidly degenerated into a circle-jerk, be locked before it inspires any more conflict.
This post made my day.
Yeah, I think this is the closest we'll ever have him admit defeat. The best part is that even here he's still wrong about so many of the things he's talking about.
I mean, there's a reason why the GW Facebook page had to delete a bunch of comments on the rules preview for him.
Well at least that means they know they wrote crap rules for him and theres hope theyll at least FAQ the aura
I don’t think the people that delete facebook posts are the same people that write or errata rules. Games Workshop isn’t exactly a hive mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But then again the goff warlord trait did get changed after community uproar, perhaps there is a little waaagh of hope at the end of the tunnel.
NurglesR0T wrote: I'd happily trade in the 4 wounds per phase rule to drop Ghaz to 9 wounds so he can get character protection.
Or let him benefit from his own aura like any other HQ does.
I legit can't think of an HQ unit that doesn't benefit themselves with the main aura/ability.
Catacomb Command Barge cannot buff itself. It's not a huge problem, you were never going to use MWBD on an Overlord anyway. For Ghaz it's a bigger problem but the feeling I get is that his M9 is to stand in for M5+advance, give him an extra attack so it's 4+1+1 (from being bigger boss and being within his own aura) The extra attacks when he is wounded are kind of weird as well, is a 5A character or a 7A character? Because if you call him 6 A then he already has a very reasonable amount of attacks. If Ghaz was OP and slotted super well into any list he'd be everywhere, I'm sure I'll get to play him at least in a casual game at some point and I can enjoy the model without freaking out over the 120 pt character that should have been more than 200 pts. Ghaz is fine, he'll be fun to use because he doesn't go down too easily and he can punch things really hard if he does get in, even if he doesn't he'll cause enough fear that he'll probably be fun to use.
@ Daedalus: Jepp, I forgot the bonus from being a Goff. Also as JNA corrected, it's more like 2-3 Bullgryns. Still, it is a unit that can very well hold their own against him. And it's a very constructed situation that Ghazz encounters an Astra Militarum force with Bullgryns that does not also shoot him in the shooting phase or has some cheap Psykers with them dropping Smites.
Another thing I realized yesterday just to put his melee prowess into perspective: lets let him attack any Guard Superheavy (Gorgon Transport, CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT, any Baneblade) with four heavy flamers only ever firing those at him. The Superheavy has the Custom Regiment traits "gunnery experts" (so ~17 average hits with the 4 twin flamers) and "Monster Hunters" (1 MW on a 6 to wound), Lets also assume that Ghazz makes every Charge he can make.
1st turn: Ghazz shoots, making 0.889 damage and then charges. He eats 1.833 damage from overwatch + 16,5/6 = 2.75 MW => he is at 8 wounds.
He attacks in CC doing 5 x35/36x2/3x4 = 13 damage, we ignore the CC damage of the superheavy in CC 2nd turn: the Superheavy falls back 1'' and flames him again for further 4 wounds
3rd turn: Ghazzy shoots again (0.889 damage) and charges only to get killed in Overwatch.
Note that while the Custom Regiment trait I gave this superheavy was quite optimized to fight Ghaz, the circumstances were vastly in his favor. He did not get shot at before making the charge, the Superheavy did only fire its flamers (and a Baneblade could have twice as much) at him and was free to use the rest of the weapons to kill Ghaz army and it also fell back only 1'' to guarantee Ghazz his Charge.
Another even worse example:
1 Hellhound with hull flamer with the same Regiment trait combination, but this time it gets to Ghazzy in the IG turn, so can fire once:
it gets 12.75 hits, doing 1.4 damage + 2 Mortals
He charges and gets another 3.4 damage
He kills the Hellhound which explodes half of the time for D3 mortals, so on average 1 Mortal wound.
=> a 107 points unit just brought him down to average 4.2 wounds just in their own shooting and his fight phase. And that was without Psykers, and other shenanigans.
Pyroalchi wrote: @ Daedalus: Jepp, I forgot the bonus from being a Goff. Also as JNA corrected, it's more like 2-3 Bullgryns. Still, it is a unit that can very well hold their own against him. And it's a very constructed situation that Ghazz encounters an Astra Militarum force with Bullgryns that does not also shoot him in the shooting phase or has some cheap Psykers with them dropping Smites.
Another thing I realized yesterday just to put his melee prowess into perspective: lets let him attack any Guard Superheavy (Gorgon Transport, CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT, any Baneblade) with four heavy flamers only ever firing those at him. The Superheavy has the Custom Regiment traits "gunnery experts" (so ~17 average hits with the 4 twin flamers) and "Monster Hunters" (1 MW on a 6 to wound), Lets also assume that Ghazz makes every Charge he can make.
1st turn: Ghazz shoots, making 0.889 damage and then charges. He eats 1.833 damage from overwatch + 16,5/6 = 2.75 MW => he is at 8 wounds.
He attacks in CC doing 5 x35/36x2/3x4 = 13 damage, we ignore the CC damage of the superheavy in CC 2nd turn: the Superheavy falls back 1'' and flames him again for further 4 wounds
3rd turn: Ghazzy shoots again (0.889 damage) and charges only to get killed in Overwatch.
Note that while the Custom Regiment trait I gave this superheavy was quite optimized to fight Ghaz, the circumstances were vastly in his favor. He did not get shot at before making the charge, the Superheavy did only fire its flamers (and a Baneblade could have twice as much) at him and was free to use the rest of the weapons to kill Ghaz army and it also fell back only 1'' to guarantee Ghazz his Charge.
Another even worse example:
1 Hellhound with hull flamer with the same Regiment trait combination, but this time it gets to Ghazzy in the IG turn, so can fire once:
it gets 12.75 hits, doing 1.4 damage + 2 Mortals
He charges and gets another 3.4 damage
He kills the Hellhound which explodes half of the time for D3 mortals, so on average 1 Mortal wound.
=> a 107 points unit just brought him down to average 4.2 wounds just in their own shooting and his fight phase. And that was without Psykers, and other shenanigans.
Flamers are range 8, making an 8,5" charge with 2d6 re-rolling either or both dice is way over 50%.
Elfric wrote: I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat
Possessed, Bloodletters, Plague Bearers, Genestealers, ... I guess it's obvious where this is going. Unlike Mortarion, Magnus, Abaddon or even a Gorkanaut, he doesn't have any built-in protection against horde units.
As long as the unit has some AP and at least medicore leadership, they'll grind him down over three fight phases. Bonus points if you have pistols which manage to deal 4 damage to him.
vict0988 wrote: For Ghaz it's a bigger problem but the feeling I get is that his M9 is to stand in for M5+advance, give him an extra attack so it's 4+1+1 (from being bigger boss and being within his own aura) The extra attacks when he is wounded are kind of weird as well, is a 5A character or a 7A character? Because if you call him 6 A then he already has a very reasonable amount of attacks.
New Thrakka moves 7/6/5" and has 5/6/7 Attacks für 235 Old Thrakka moved 5" and had 5 attacks +1 when charging and could advance and charge 285
He was considered overcosted before and now got 50 points more expensive while losing access to most stratagems and buffs. IMO old Thrakka was better.
vict0988 wrote: For Ghaz it's a bigger problem but the feeling I get is that his M9 is to stand in for M5+advance, give him an extra attack so it's 4+1+1 (from being bigger boss and being within his own aura) The extra attacks when he is wounded are kind of weird as well, is a 5A character or a 7A character? Because if you call him 6 A then he already has a very reasonable amount of attacks.
New Thrakka moves 7/6/5" and has 5/6/7 Attacks für 235
Old Thrakka moved 5" and had 5 attacks +1 when charging and could advance and charge 285
He was considered overcosted before and now got 50 points more expensive while losing access to most stratagems and buffs. IMO old Thrakka was better.
He should probably be 9" like I thought he was then.
Oh, I don't think anyone would be complaining if he was 9" - that's a very good chance at charging in T2 even with advancing just once.
7" means that walking up the board take 3 turns though, which incidentally is exactly as long as it takes to shoot him off the board.
Either surrounded by gobs of bikes and boyz or oversaturated with melee vehicles so as to force shots on to Ghaz in lieu of going after vehicles. Evil Sunz BBs with a 15" + 4.5" + advance and charge on top of needing to shoot a deepstriking Ghaz? Seems like a slightly tall order.
Unfortunately Dae, you don't know what you're talking about in this regard. You thought he could fight twice and you seem to be adding an attack to him for some reason, you don't know Orks well enough.
Elfric wrote: Once Ghaghskull hits combat is there anything that beats him? He beats Guilliman easily. What about the Demon Primarchs or Abaddon?
You don't have to beat him.
Shave off four wounds in shooting. Drop a couple of smites. Then to win you just need to get the first activation with something that can do 4+ wounds before he acts. Easy as.
If he drops in and charges, eats and screening unit or two and then dies as described above. For some armies replace the smites with overwatch or any other means of doing wounds.
Not everything has smite. Necrons don't. Most space marines armies won't be doing 4 damage with smite in psychic either. So that leaves shooting and melee. Nothing is going to want to fight Ghaz in melee, he will be avoided like the plague, everyone will try and kite him. GG if he teleports into the front line of a Necrons castle and is supported by a bunch of boys. He'll merk all the arks and HQ within two turns, no more reanimation protocols. He's the best Melee unit in the game once he's in.
...But he really super isn't though. The main reason that I'm not planning on using Ghazghkull is that, pointswise, he's pretty damn close to a gorkanaut, who puts him to absolute shame in melee because the gorkanaut can decide to go for 18 Ap-2 D2 attacks optionally. 5A S14 Ap-4 D4 sounds bonkers until you realize that he can't get through any screen.
Blood Angel smash captain is on average more effective than ghazghkull and costs less than 1/2 the points. "best melee unit in the game" is just hideous hyperbole.
A naut doesn't have a wound cap however. Again, Ghaz can only take 4 wounds per phase. That's what makes him a melee monster, not simply his damage output. I'm yet to hear anyone explain how he isn't going to cause havoc to castles.
I'll again reiterate the idea that challenging the status quo, and making castles less viable would make this good game design, not bad.
Castles shouldn't exist in the first place.
All the auras that turn marines or CSM into basically over armored Lineinfantry shooting at each other is bad.
Ghaz is equally as bad even if he counters that supposedly ( he doesn't that's besides the point though)
Ghaz is one of the few things that can last a combat phase with the Wulfen even Titanics struggle with that.
That said just like the Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry so many things can stop him so easily and survive doing it. Unless you go to him Ghaz isn’t going to be in combat before turn two and turn three or even four if you've actively avoided him, that's five potentially damaging phases for most armies and four for specialists.
Ghaz is only threatening if the other 1650 points of Orks are threatening in their own right.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Ghaz is only threatening if the other 1650 points of Orks are threatening in their own right.
I don't see him being more threatening that than 350 simply spent on something else though. For 350 you can have 10 evil suns MANz who have 75%+ chance to make their charges, access to the full array of stratagems and even a new one increasing their damage by one.
Elfric wrote: I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat
I don't know if that's a useful question. This isn't a pit fight. It's a battle.
However...
Archons are known to be able to punch well above their weight class when they're lucky with their Shadowfield. Of course, you can't rely on "being lucky". How good is Gazh at dishing out mortal wounds?
.
I play orks and dark eldar. There is no way an Archon is beating him in cc, no matter how he is kitted out. If this isn't a put fight then why have any big hard hitting monsters. Everyone is arguing that Ghaz is trash and I am arguing that he is potentially the best CC unit in the game. Apart from Magnus I am not sure what other 1 unit is beating him
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the "max. damage per phase" mechanic is gonna see more play in the future, perhaps as soon as the good/evil-Knights and Daemons Psychic Awakening.
if we were to see a Knight strat or a Bloodthirster WL trait or some kustom job / adaptive biology-style unit upgrades or something along those lines that provide similar buffs, it'll change the dynamics.
Traditionally, GW has rolled new mechanics out in batches for a month or three when they created new ones (or ported them from AoS like this one).
No deepstrike within 12" was a cute, novel little thing in the GSC Codex in February last year ... soon after half the new Marine stuff had the same rule, then Alpha Legion, Tau, etc..
Nitro Zeus wrote: Ork players not recognising a good unit again. Haven’t we done this a thousand times?
i don’t think that is what is happening in this instance.
Despite clearly being a fearsome fighter, Ghazghkull’s renown comes not from his reputation as a fighter, but from his reputation as a leader of orks. I suspect many ork players are a little disappointed because although he can command a charge like a speedboss (but not from the front as he doesn’t self aura...) and he will normally get to see at least a round or two of combat (clunky as the mechanic allowing that may be) he doesn’t actually improve orks in a way that marks him out as a better leader than any other boss.
Elfric wrote: I didn't ask how to one shot him with your army I asked what 1 unit in the game can beat him in close combat
I don't know if that's a useful question. This isn't a pit fight. It's a battle.
However...
Archons are known to be able to punch well above their weight class when they're lucky with their Shadowfield. Of course, you can't rely on "being lucky". How good is Gazh at dishing out mortal wounds?
.
I play orks and dark eldar. There is no way an Archon is beating him in cc, no matter how he is kitted out. If this isn't a put fight then why have any big hard hitting monsters. Everyone is arguing that Ghaz is trash and I am arguing that he is potentially the best CC unit in the game. Apart from Magnus I am not sure what other 1 unit is beating him
I didn't realise 'what 1 unit can beat it' is the metric by which 'best cc unit in the game' is measured. And you've had an answer that you seem to be ignoring.... Bloodletters, Poxwalkers, Ork Boyz...
Your question is irrelevant and has absolutely no bearing on whether Ghaz is 'the best cc unit in the game'. If he never gets into cc, he is utterly useless. If he never gets into cc with his intended targets he is utterly useless. He moves 7" MAX and has no way to improve on a 9inch charge from deep strike (less than 50% chance of making the charge). He can't even advance and charge. He is garbage at 285 pts. You will never see him in competitive lists and this thread is kinda revealing in terms of the demographics of this forum.
Either surrounded by gobs of bikes and boyz or oversaturated with melee vehicles so as to force shots on to Ghaz in lieu of going after vehicles. Evil Sunz BBs with a 15" + 4.5" + advance and charge on top of needing to shoot a deepstriking Ghaz? Seems like a slightly tall order.
Unfortunately Dae, you don't know what you're talking about in this regard. You thought he could fight twice and you seem to be adding an attack to him for some reason, you don't know Orks well enough.
He isn't a good unit, unfortunately.
I know them quite well. Forgetting he's a monster and fight twice is infantry is really inconsequential. Did he lose his warlord trait for some unknown reason?
Either surrounded by gobs of bikes and boyz or oversaturated with melee vehicles so as to force shots on to Ghaz in lieu of going after vehicles. Evil Sunz BBs with a 15" + 4.5" + advance and charge on top of needing to shoot a deepstriking Ghaz? Seems like a slightly tall order.
Unfortunately Dae, you don't know what you're talking about in this regard. You thought he could fight twice and you seem to be adding an attack to him for some reason, you don't know Orks well enough.
He isn't a good unit, unfortunately.
I know them quite well. Forgetting he's a monster and fight twice is infantry is really inconsequential. Did he lose his warlord trait for some unknown reason?
Not that I know of, but why is a competitive player taking a Goff detachment? Does he always charge first despite being slower and unable to advance and charge?
Forgetting he can't fight twice without dying is actually huge. It halves his potential damage output. It's also the reason he can't be jumped, advance and charge, benefit from the painboy aura, go on terrain features and is generally awful.
Unlike most other codices we don't have a list matching characters to traits, but a rule on page 132 of the ork codex stating that named characters must always use the warlord trait of their corresponding clan, with Thrakka used as an example.
But yes, AAE is right, no one uses goff detachments and Thrakka for sure is not a reason to start doing so.
You also wouldn't want make Thrakka your warlord for dozens of reasons. But who am I talking to, "I know them quite well." has been proven wrong so many times... *points to signature*
Ironically us Ork players have discussed Thraka at length. We all want him to be competitive. Like desperately. None of us (and I mean none) can work out how to make him work. It's a shame, the model is soo nice and true to my word I've pre-ordered him because 'new Ork release'.
This is why all these counter arguments are rolling off the tongues of us Ork players - we've assessed him, at length and with the intention of making him work, it just doesn't seem feasible.
As I've said before, I'm not a fan of the 4-wounds-per-phase limit simply because it's another example of GW papering over the cracks in their system rather than actually addressing the core issues.
However, in terms of actual power level, I'd much prefer that Primarchs and the like were closer to Ghazghkull than vice versa.
I think the game would be far better off if people were fielding special characters solely because they liked their models - not because they have incredible auras, unrivalled psychic powers or any other such.
To put it another way, I actually think it's better when special characters don't represent the best possible value for their points.
vipoid wrote: As I've said before, I'm not a fan of the 4-wounds-per-phase limit simply because it's another example of GW papering over the cracks in their system rather than actually addressing the core issues.
However, in terms of actual power level, I'd much prefer that Primarchs and the like were closer to Ghazghkull than vice versa.
I think the game would be far better off if people were fielding special characters solely because they liked their models - not because they have incredible auras, unrivalled psychic powers or any other such.
To put it another way, I actually think it's better when special characters don't represent the best possible value for their points.
Well Crowe is an example of being worse than the generic version of an HQ
vipoid wrote: As I've said before, I'm not a fan of the 4-wounds-per-phase limit simply because it's another example of GW papering over the cracks in their system rather than actually addressing the core issues.
However, in terms of actual power level, I'd much prefer that Primarchs and the like were closer to Ghazghkull than vice versa.
I think the game would be far better off if people were fielding special characters solely because they liked their models - not because they have incredible auras, unrivalled psychic powers or any other such.
To put it another way, I actually think it's better when special characters don't represent the best possible value for their points.
In my opinion, rank and file characters should be what holds an army together and special characters should either have unique, whacky rules or do stuff that you can get away with having once in your army but would blow up if you had multiples.
Thrakka being Warboss+1 is just as bad as being Warboss-1. In a perfect world, Thrakka should be a valid alternative to a warboss, with pros and cons. Right now it's all cons.
Special characters do need to do something special, but special does not mean it has to be better, special can be different and appropriately costed for it.
A space marine captain SC that can decide to be either re-roll 1's to hit or re-roll 1's to wound at the start of the turn.
Yeah, many people won't see the benefit in that, or not be happy as it is not super powerful, but it is different, and in a crux different can be useful.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Special characters do need to do something special, but special does not mean it has to be better, special can be different and appropriately costed for it.
A space marine captain SC that can decide to be either re-roll 1's to hit to re-roll 1's to wound at the start of the turn.
Yeah, many people won't see the benefit in that, or not be happy as it is not super powerful, but it is different, and in a crux different can be useful.
Sometimes just doing different isn't good. Look at Crowe and Stern for Grey Knights as an example. They're definitely more unique compared to the generic versions, but they're so absurdly worse as a choice it's kinda hilarious.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Special characters do need to do something special, but special does not mean it has to be better, special can be different and appropriately costed for it.
A space marine captain SC that can decide to be either re-roll 1's to hit to re-roll 1's to wound at the start of the turn.
Yeah, many people won't see the benefit in that, or not be happy as it is not super powerful, but it is different, and in a crux different can be useful.
Sometimes just doing different isn't good. Look at Crowe and Stern for Grey Knights as an example. They're definitely more unique compared to the generic versions, but they're so absurdly worse as a choice it's kinda hilarious.
That's why it should be built for the most part on existing rules. TBF I like universal special rules and would limit the use of unique special rule(s) to 1 or 2 characters per faction.
I actually really like Ghaz and his rules for the most part. They should have just sorted his movement out or given him access to mitigate it, allowing him to teleport deep strike and say his charge range is 6 +D6.
Either surrounded by gobs of bikes and boyz or oversaturated with melee vehicles so as to force shots on to Ghaz in lieu of going after vehicles. Evil Sunz BBs with a 15" + 4.5" + advance and charge on top of needing to shoot a deepstriking Ghaz? Seems like a slightly tall order.
Unfortunately Dae, you don't know what you're talking about in this regard. You thought he could fight twice and you seem to be adding an attack to him for some reason, you don't know Orks well enough.
He isn't a good unit, unfortunately.
I know them quite well. Forgetting he's a monster and fight twice is infantry is really inconsequential. Did he lose his warlord trait for some unknown reason?
It is for anyone else.
Or are you forgetting what is in your bloody signature...?
Gadzilla666 wrote: 40 points of cultists or guardsmen a turn and Ghaz is just a pretty face with a big price tag. Fare trade.
This is a non argument because Orks do not lack tools to deal easily with 40 points of cultists. Anybody who play Ghaz will, obviously, deal with screens with other units. Not to mention Ghaz is not that mobile to begin with.
Also, the argument around the point cost of Ghaz is a non argument : who take the point cost seriously in this day and age ? He will drop in the next chapter approved for sure.
There are two things that makes me believe Ghaz is not OP : he is a monster, which means that as of now he cannot be healed by a medic - and that's silly considering who he is (and his fluff). And, as a monster, he cannot go into a transport either.
I think a lot of people want to frame him into pre-conceived their box. Same thing happens with Magnus - "if you don't warptime him into combat as fast as possible then you're not maximizing him", but come to find out that isn't the only way to play him.
gak, Abaddon is great and even got a point cut and you still don't see him much, but just because you don't see him at majors doesn't mean he can't do well.
People just don't like to lean forward into melee and would rather sit on their ass with Mek Gunz.
Daedalus81 wrote: I think a lot of people want to frame him into pre-conceived their box. Same thing happens with Magnus - "if you don't warptime him into combat as fast as possible then you're not maximizing him", but come to find out that isn't the only way to play him.
gak, Abaddon is great and even got a point cut and you still don't see him much, but just because you don't see him at majors doesn't mean he can't do well.
People just don't like to lean forward into melee and would rather sit on their ass with Mek Gunz.
Yeah I totally agree with you. He will be an effective unit if they fix a few things on him (mostly letting painboyz healing him without having to use a strata and his aura) and tweak his cost a little. His wounding rule can makes him a very interesting unit if played well imo.
This thread is amazing. Ghaz is basically a 285 point smash captain without fly. You are paying a ludicrous sum of points just so he can't be insta-gibbed at some point. I think he might be okay in a casual setting - because yes, 55%~ of the time his charges work every time. In a tournament you are going to have to get very lucky not to have multiple games where he comes down, fails that charge, and so you've potentially taken 3 turns from your opponent while Ghaz has done nothing.
Then you have the problem that his attacks are quite specialised - and so yes, easily screened. Saying "orks can clear screens" is weird. They can - almost everyone can - but Ghaz has to then be in position to then charge something else. He shouldn't be until late into the game when either running up or DSing in.
But really - why don't people like the "only do X wounds a phase" thing? People often complain that stuff in modern 40k dies far too easily and this seems like a good solution. I can see the argument this should apply to all characters - arguably its a more epic form of protection than the current system of "can't touch this, can't touch this, oh no I is kill" which has provoked various dubious rules interactions in 8th. It would allow for more interesting character duels rather than *I charge, I kill unless you luck out on invuls*.
It would require a rebalance of the game, but thats not the end of the world.
It seems to me that the argument in this thread boils down to ghaz Is amazing in a vacuum vs
Ghaz is terrible in a vacuum
Lots of people citing that ghazzy is an easy kill but forgetting that there will also be 1700 points of orks on the table!
And others believing that ghazzy is simply an unkillable wrecking ball in an edition that wrecks knights.
I’m kind of in between.
Ghazzy can do work in a list and if you build around him he may even be decent in casual games he’s not amazing but he’s also not terrible.
The biggest issue is tournaments and that’s where allot of people are drawing their power level of ghazzy from,
IMO he’s just not efficient in any tournament format, the investment is too high for a poor return
But really - why don't people like the "only do X wounds a phase" thing? People often complain that stuff in modern 40k dies far too easily and this seems like a good solution. I can see the argument this should apply to all characters - arguably its a more epic form of protection than the current system of "can't touch this, can't touch this, oh no I is kill" which has provoked various dubious rules interactions in 8th. It would allow for more interesting character duels rather than *I charge, I kill unless you luck out on invuls*.
It actually feels like a half baked idea to reduce the killiness of the most killy edition of 40k yet. They have zero way to balance all the huge shooting AND make characters effective without resorting to really stretching things to help them survive. Its yet another patch to an overly bloated mess.
The reaction is the usual armchair general reaction, plus a vague guess about its "competitive, tournament" worthiness. For anyone else who plays orks and wants to field Ghaz, in club games and similar, he'll be just fine.
The biggest issue with Ghaz is that you can spend 1 CP and a Relic and make an 80pt Warboss as good in some aspects and better in many others. And to do this, you CAN'T include Ghaz. He can work just fine in your local scene, but you're giving up a lot to field him.
Tyel wrote: But really - why don't people like the "only do X wounds a phase" thing? People often complain that stuff in modern 40k dies far too easily and this seems like a good solution. I can see the argument this should apply to all characters - arguably its a more epic form of protection than the current system of "can't touch this, can't touch this, oh no I is kill" which has provoked various dubious rules interactions in 8th. It would allow for more interesting character duels rather than *I charge, I kill unless you luck out on invuls*.
It's a really ham fisted mechanic, it essentially shuts down a level of interactivity, and just feels really forced, a poor solution to a real problem, and breaks a level of immersion when something can just start absorbing infinite levels of killing power at some point. Of greater importance, is that a mechanic like this can basically result in a truly unkillable unit if an appropriate healing mechanic is made available at some point, and GW likes to go and do things like that, sometimes without meaning to.
That said I don't think Ghaz is broken, I just really don't like that particular mechanic. I'd really have preferred Ghaz just remain a character with less than 10 wounds, this upscaling to bigger-than-primarch size is a bit odd, especially for character who's arch-nemesis is an old unaugmented human.
nareik wrote: There is a kind of background precedent for Ghazzy having such protection though; the Black Templars destroyed his fleet, yet he somehow survived.
This is a typical narrative line in any kind of fluff that a character, after some time, is surrounded by mythical rumors and whatnot. Cypher for exemple is the same and yet he has no substantial rule that translate that in the game. So it's not specific to Ghaz and it doesn't have to be represented in game. They did this because they felt the need to make Ghaz into a big character with more than 9 HP but not at primarch level, for obvious reasons.
Yazima wrote: I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.
Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth
Keep it open for 2 months at the very least, I need to prove OP wrong.
You don't need two months. Here lets say Ghaz vs Tau (and its battlesuit based because lolz).
1. I think we agree footslogging to the Great Unassailable Gunline is a bad strategy for Ghaz, that's 2 turns of shooting and then he gets killed in overwatch, his army gets to move really fast, so maybe thats his best use.
2. He teleports into the great unassailable gunline, way more fun. And somehow he makes that 50/50 charge. Now he gets overwatched on... and gets 4 wounds. Now he gets to fight... 6 Attacks... 4 damage each... OMG 24 wounds!! That Riptide that he charged must surely be dead? Plus we'll give Roberts84 the benefit of this being a lousy unskilled tau player.. therefore he forgot to use sheild drones to soak all the wounds, and forgot to use the Riptides ability to have a 3+ invulnerable save. That sucks right... well with a 5+ native invulnerable... big all Ghaz lands... yup 12.96 wounds. Riptide lives, but lets say with just 1 hp left. Next turn... Ghaz gets shot for 4 more, and when he charges again, he dies in overwatch, and that riptide is still alive.
3. If Ghaz fails the charge, he gets overwatched for 4, then shot for 4, then... dies in overwatch the next turn, having done exactly zero for Ghaz, zero for the army.
Tyel wrote: But really - why don't people like the "only do X wounds a phase" thing? People often complain that stuff in modern 40k dies far too easily and this seems like a good solution. I can see the argument this should apply to all characters - arguably its a more epic form of protection than the current system of "can't touch this, can't touch this, oh no I is kill" which has provoked various dubious rules interactions in 8th. It would allow for more interesting character duels rather than *I charge, I kill unless you luck out on invuls*.
It's a really ham fisted mechanic, it essentially shuts down a level of interactivity, and just feels really forced, a poor solution to a real problem, and breaks a level of immersion when something can just start absorbing infinite levels of killing power at some point. Of greater importance, is that a mechanic like this can basically result in a truly unkillable unit if an appropriate healing mechanic is made available at some point, and GW likes to go and do things like that, sometimes without meaning to.
That said I don't think Ghaz is broken, I just really don't like that particular mechanic. I'd really have preferred Ghaz just remain a character with less than 10 wounds, this upscaling to bigger-than-primarch size is a bit odd, especially for character who's arch-nemesis is an old unaugmented human.
Thing is, it's not really a new mechanic, even for GW. Malekith in 6th ed WHFB had a similar form of protection from his armour, where he could only suffer a single wound from each hit. Archaon had a similar kind of protection, where he could only be wounded on a 3+ at best.
It strikes me as another one of those things GW has swiped from Warmahordes, without realising there are things in that game that can do an auto single point of damage. Both the Covenant of Menoth and the Hermit of Hengehold have such a rule where you can only do a single point of damage to them per attack.
Sure, it's a bit "gamey" but GW have brought this on themselves by taking the gloves off with 40k.
nareik wrote: There is a kind of background precedent for Ghazzy having such protection though; the Black Templars destroyed his fleet, yet he somehow survived.
This is a typical narrative line in any kind of fluff that a character, after some time, is surrounded by mythical rumors and whatnot. Cypher for exemple is the same and yet he has no substantial rule that translate that in the game.
Not any more. Once upon a time Cypher had a 4++ after he had died on 3D6, if you passed you got zero VPs for killing him.
Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
I'm sure, thanks to all the whining when the rule was first previewed, that it will find it's way to Imperial and Chaos units, because of course Xenos armies can't have unique and interesting rules. No doubt those units will be far superior to Ghaz with the same rule (as even with it, he sucks).
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
I'm sure, thanks to all the whining when the rule was first previewed, that it will find it's way to Imperial and Chaos units, because of course Xenos armies can't have unique and interesting rules. No doubt those units will be far superior to Ghaz with the same rule (as even with it, he sucks).
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
I'm sure, thanks to all the whining when the rule was first previewed, that it will find it's way to Imperial and Chaos units, because of course Xenos armies can't have unique and interesting rules. No doubt those units will be far superior to Ghaz with the same rule (as even with it, he sucks).
I'm not jelous of the rule myself (all told character protection is proably better) but I do think we're more like then not to see this rule be refined for future units. I'd not be suprised to see GW examine the rule in use, and then pout out say... Angron with a refined version of it
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
I'm sure, thanks to all the whining when the rule was first previewed, that it will find it's way to Imperial and Chaos units, because of course Xenos armies can't have unique and interesting rules. No doubt those units will be far superior to Ghaz with the same rule (as even with it, he sucks).
*Envy
But yes, agreed on all points there.
Ah right you are! You remind me of one of my mates in our group who always tells me off for not using the word "fewer" when appropriate.
PROPHET OF GORK AND MORK
This unit has a 4++ Invulnerable Save. The first time this unit takes damage from an attack, this improves to a 2++. The second time, it gains a 4+++ FnP. These improvements go away at the end of the turn.
PROPHET OF GORK AND MORK
This unit has a 4++ Invulnerable Save. The first time this unit takes damage from an attack, this improves to a 2++. The second time, it gains a 4+++ FnP. These improvements go away at the end of the turn.
Did you mean phase? Because if you meant phase, it's better, since you CAN hurt him down, it's just tough. But if you really meant turn, it's way worse.
But I'd rather he either be a proper monster (16+ wounds, T8, 2+/4++/maybe 5+++) or have 9 wounds, maybe with a come back from death once mechanic.
Either is fine, but I was under the impression the hate for the rule wasn't about how durable it made him, but rather that it broke immersion and/or (insert reason here). If it's just "Ghaz is too hard to kill", then just say so.
To be fair, the max wounds per phase is more of an easy way out when writing rules.
It’s a solid rule, yes.
Then, fact that he’s slow and over priced though it suddenly seems a lot worse.
Add in the fact he can’t hide and it becomes a handicap.
Top it off with clan lock and it’s all downhill.
Wound caps really aren’t a big deal providing a model is costed correctly and actually has a downside.
This is no new thing in terms of GW games as a whole either.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
Yep. No one can dislike a rule because it's a sloppy game mechanic. Always has to be envy.
Honestly, the issues that made GW think this was a good idea wouldn't have been problems if they just switch the thr Apoc "deal damage and remove models at the end of the turn" system. Then, if you still want a rule to keep Ghaz around longer, just give him an inbuilt "half all damage done to this unit (rounded up)" mechanic.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
I'm sure, thanks to all the whining when the rule was first previewed, that it will find it's way to Imperial and Chaos units, because of course Xenos armies can't have unique and interesting rules. No doubt those units will be far superior to Ghaz with the same rule (as even with it, he sucks).
Coming from one of the whiner in chief of dakkadakka, this is funny to read.
He's also not incorrect here.
You really don't have any room to speak here at all.
The rule is at least interesting, but it does show that there's been some problems with their alpha striking.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
Yep. No one can dislike a rule because it's a sloppy game mechanic. Always has to be envy.
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
flandarz wrote: Honestly, the issues that made GW think this was a good idea wouldn't have been problems if they just switch the thr Apoc "deal damage and remove models at the end of the turn" system.
I keep hearing this extolled and I've yet to see the appeal.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
Yep. No one can dislike a rule because it's a sloppy game mechanic. Always has to be envy.
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
It breaks immersion, for one.
And I don't think anyone wants to see Ghaz lose that rule and otherwise be unchanged. The general suggestion I've seen mentioned is dropping him to 9 wounds, which would make him IMMENSELY more durable against the majority of armies.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
Yep. No one can dislike a rule because it's a sloppy game mechanic. Always has to be envy.
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
It breaks immersion, for one.
And I don't think anyone wants to see Ghaz lose that rule and otherwise be unchanged. The general suggestion I've seen mentioned is dropping him to 9 wounds, which would make him IMMENSELY more durable against the majority of armies.
It breaks immersion?! Explain please. If anything should be able to shrug off attacks that should kill it, it's the biggest, baddest Ork surely? And how is that more immersion breaking than having a magical number of wounds that means this absolute unit can hide behind a Grot? It doesn't add up.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
Yep. No one can dislike a rule because it's a sloppy game mechanic. Always has to be envy.
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
It breaks immersion, for one.
And I don't think anyone wants to see Ghaz lose that rule and otherwise be unchanged. The general suggestion I've seen mentioned is dropping him to 9 wounds, which would make him IMMENSELY more durable against the majority of armies.
It breaks immersion?! Explain please. If anything should be able to shrug off attacks that should kill it, it's the biggest, baddest Ork surely? And how is that more immersion breaking than having a magical number of wounds that means this absolute unit can hide behind a Grot? It doesn't add up.
So how come he can't shrug off a grot poking him four times, but after that grot pokes him, he's immune to Volcano Cannons?
At least character protection is CONSISTENT.
Edit: To put another way, to take down a Knight, you pour everything you have into it, and it eventually dies.
To take down Ghaz, you put a couple of spare Lascannons into him and then ignore him.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
Yep. No one can dislike a rule because it's a sloppy game mechanic. Always has to be envy.
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
It breaks immersion, for one.
And I don't think anyone wants to see Ghaz lose that rule and otherwise be unchanged. The general suggestion I've seen mentioned is dropping him to 9 wounds, which would make him IMMENSELY more durable against the majority of armies.
but it would also mean you have a unit the size of a trukk who cannot be targeted separately because a grot is closer. and who dies in every duel with any decent opponent (9 wounds ain't that hard to deal). in this rendition, ghazzie lunches characters in CC, as he should, and he krumps vehicles, as he should, and he gets bogged down in chaff, as he should. unsupported, people will just feed him chaff and get on with the rest of the battle. I'd be interested in how he will do when in the midst of a couple of units of boys who can tri-point for him and screen from feeder-chaff. Though, perhaps grots will be better suited - less likely to kill the unit he wants to tri-point!
I am looking forward to using the new rules, and seeing how he does. I still have the old model, for now, so it might not quite look so cool!
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
The issue is that Ghaz is a 12-wound T7 model with a 2+/4++ save.
Even allowing for the fact that wounds increased between editions, in 7th he would have been roughly equivalent to a Dreadknight with +1T and probably 100% more wounds. And even ordinary Dreadknights were very difficult to remove on turn 1, short of D-weapons.
Hence, the fact that a model with that level of protection still needs a special rule on top of all that strictly limiting the number of wounds he can take in a single phase, so that he isn't blown off the table on turn 1, speaks volumes about 8th edition.
My issue, therefore, is that rules like this are just papering over the cracks. It seems we're seeing a ridiculous trend of ever-increasing firepower "balanced" by putting more saves and other defences on everything. Really, the game is in dire need of dialling back both.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
Yep. No one can dislike a rule because it's a sloppy game mechanic. Always has to be envy.
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
It breaks immersion, for one.
And I don't think anyone wants to see Ghaz lose that rule and otherwise be unchanged. The general suggestion I've seen mentioned is dropping him to 9 wounds, which would make him IMMENSELY more durable against the majority of armies.
It breaks immersion?! Explain please. If anything should be able to shrug off attacks that should kill it, it's the biggest, baddest Ork surely? And how is that more immersion breaking than having a magical number of wounds that means this absolute unit can hide behind a Grot? It doesn't add up.
So how come he can't shrug off a grot poking him four times, but after that grot pokes him, he's immune to Volcano Cannons?
At least character protection is CONSISTENT.
Edit: To put another way, to take down a Knight, you pour everything you have into it, and it eventually dies.
To take down Ghaz, you put a couple of spare Lascannons into him and then ignore him.
The character protection rule on Ghaz is more immersion breaking. Look at the size of him. He's bigger than Girlyman!
I mean if you want this super immersive game I suspect 40k isn't the one for you. A Grot can kill a Knight titan over 1000 times it's size.
Ghaz's rule represents the maximum damage he can sustain in a time period (a phase). To me it represents his armour breaking off hence why his attacks increase but strength drops.
I have yet to see a coherent reason as to why it is a 'sloppy game mechanic'. Ghaz would be paper without the rule. Is that what you want? A big, centrepiece model that dies immediately?
The issue is that Ghaz is a 12-wound T7 model with a 2+/4++ save.
Even allowing for the fact that wounds increased between editions, in 7th he would have been roughly equivalent to a Dreadknight with +1T and probably 100% more wounds. And even ordinary Dreadknights were very difficult to remove on turn 1, short of D-weapons.
Hence, the fact that a model with that level of protection still needs a special rule on top of all that strictly limiting the number of wounds he can take in a single phase, so that he isn't blown off the table on turn 1, speaks volumes about 8th edition.
My issue, therefore, is that rules like this are just papering over the cracks. It seems we're seeing a ridiculous trend of ever-increasing firepower "balanced" by putting more saves and other defences on everything. Really, the game is in dire need of dialling back both.
If you dial back both offense and defence you end up at roughly the same spot.
I distinctly remember multiple builds not too long ago on the competitive scene where it was quite literally impossible to shift the number of bodies on the table quick enough not to lose. Have we forgotten plaguebearers already?
The character protection rule on Ghaz is more immersion breaking. Look at the size of him. He's bigger than Girlyman!
I think the character-protection rules are a bit of a mess in general.
Many of the models were clearly given 9-wounds for very game-y reasons (models the size of Girlyman, Daemon Princes or the CCB really have no business hiding behind anything smaller than an Imperial Knight).
But even outside of the disparities in scale, there's no interactivity with the rule. Either a character is immune to shooting or all shooting can target them without penalty.
It seems like there should be something in between these two.
Ghaz's rule represents the maximum damage he can sustain in a time period (a phase). To me it represents his armour breaking off hence why his attacks increase but strength drops.
Minor point but if his armour is falling off, shouldn't he get faster rather than slower?
JNAProductions wrote: But I'd rather he either be a proper monster (16+ wounds, T8, 2+/4++/maybe 5+++) or have 9 wounds, maybe with a come back from death once mechanic.
That's basically Mortarions statline. Who dies first thing even in casual games.
How are Mortarion or Thrakka even a threat to the imperium if five to six imperial tanks can easily kill them within the first seconds of a battle. I fail to see how this is supposed to be immersive.
JNAProductions wrote: But I'd rather he either be a proper monster (16+ wounds, T8, 2+/4++/maybe 5+++) or have 9 wounds, maybe with a come back from death once mechanic.
That's basically Mortarions statline. Who dies first thing even in casual games.
How are Mortarion or Thrakka even a threat to the imperium if five to six imperial tanks can easily kill them within the first seconds of a battle. I fail to see how this is supposed to be immersive.
Yeah. I'll echo Vipoid, then, by saying the game is too damn lethal.
Is it worth it to just take Ghaz with the Tellyporta and a tidal wave of Boyz? I mean...250 bodies of Orks rushing forward, not caring about casualties and then big bad boss drops in to crump. Yay or nay?
Yazima wrote: I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.
Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth
Keep it open for 2 months at the very least, I need to prove OP wrong.
You don't need two months. Here lets say Ghaz vs Tau (and its battlesuit based because lolz).
1. I think we agree footslogging to the Great Unassailable Gunline is a bad strategy for Ghaz, that's 2 turns of shooting and then he gets killed in overwatch, his army gets to move really fast, so maybe thats his best use.
2. He teleports into the great unassailable gunline, way more fun. And somehow he makes that 50/50 charge. Now he gets overwatched on... and gets 4 wounds. Now he gets to fight... 6 Attacks... 4 damage each... OMG 24 wounds!! That Riptide that he charged must surely be dead? Plus we'll give Roberts84 the benefit of this being a lousy unskilled tau player.. therefore he forgot to use sheild drones to soak all the wounds, and forgot to use the Riptides ability to have a 3+ invulnerable save. That sucks right... well with a 5+ native invulnerable... big all Ghaz lands... yup 12.96 wounds. Riptide lives, but lets say with just 1 hp left. Next turn... Ghaz gets shot for 4 more, and when he charges again, he dies in overwatch, and that riptide is still alive.
3. If Ghaz fails the charge, he gets overwatched for 4, then shot for 4, then... dies in overwatch the next turn, having done exactly zero for Ghaz, zero for the army.
Now you prove the OP is wrong :-)
If you're running Farsight Battlesuits, I'd at least once try bring in a Crisis Bomb in 3-4" of Ghaz with a Homing Beacon or so, shoot him up for 4 wounds, then charge Ghaz and do 4 more Mortals with Furious Assault in the Charge Phase, and finally take him out close combat with Sworn Protectors for the final 4 wounds and be the Tau Player that get's bragging rights to having killed Ghaz in one round of close combat with your Tau.
timetowaste85 wrote: Is it worth it to just take Ghaz with the Tellyporta and a tidal wave of Boyz? I mean...250 bodies of Orks rushing forward, not caring about casualties and then big bad boss drops in to crump. Yay or nay?
You can't afford that many Boys. It'd be 1,750 points before upgrades, and Ghaz is 285.
But, the general idea of a horde of Boys and Ghaz... I mean, I don't think it'll be bad casually, but all Ghaz really does is add a target for some anti-tank weapons. +1 attack is nice, but with 200+ Ork bodies, is weight of attacks REALLY an issue?
You'd be better off taking a Big Mek with KFF, to make them more durable.
Tyel wrote: But really - why don't people like the "only do X wounds a phase" thing? People often complain that stuff in modern 40k dies far too easily and this seems like a good solution. I can see the argument this should apply to all characters - arguably its a more epic form of protection than the current system of "can't touch this, can't touch this, oh no I is kill" which has provoked various dubious rules interactions in 8th. It would allow for more interesting character duels rather than *I charge, I kill unless you luck out on invuls*.
It's a really ham fisted mechanic, it essentially shuts down a level of interactivity, and just feels really forced, a poor solution to a real problem, and breaks a level of immersion when something can just start absorbing infinite levels of killing power at some point. Of greater importance, is that a mechanic like this can basically result in a truly unkillable unit if an appropriate healing mechanic is made available at some point, and GW likes to go and do things like that, sometimes without meaning to.
That said I don't think Ghaz is broken, I just really don't like that particular mechanic. I'd really have preferred Ghaz just remain a character with less than 10 wounds, this upscaling to bigger-than-primarch size is a bit odd, especially for character who's arch-nemesis is an old unaugmented human.
Thing is, it's not really a new mechanic, even for GW. Malekith in 6th ed WHFB had a similar form of protection from his armour, where he could only suffer a single wound from each hit. Archaon had a similar kind of protection, where he could only be wounded on a 3+ at best.
To me, it's not quite the same thing. Even with those abilities, they only mitigate damage, they don't limit it. You could still kill Archaon outright with a lucky cannon hit or overwhelm him with volume of attacks. With the mechanic Ghaz has, they essentially gain invulnerability once they hit their wound threshold and no amount of killing power will take them down until the next turn, doesn't matter if you have a billion lasguns or a Volcano cannon, Quantity or Quality (whereas the other mentioned abilities shift preference between the two or reduce likelyhood of critical outcomes), and if paired with any meaningful healing ability that could make them unkillable. In the case of Ghaz as is, I don't think it's a major balance issue, but its a very easy mechanic to break with some odd gameplay incentives.
I think in terms of the interactivity it becomes too game-ey as well, for the reasons I listed earlier, but that's kinda more my subjective opinion.
The silly part in all this is that the metric at which "OP" is determined is that it can't be blown off the board in a turn of shooting from across the table.
Also, if any Astartes army got a similar rule nobody would bat an eye at it.
The problem that i have with 4 wnd max is that it encourages opponents to not pour fire into him and rather to spread it out which seems contrary to what Ghaz should be doing, tanking fire while the enemy is overrun.
Daedalus81 wrote: I think a lot of people want to frame him into pre-conceived their box. Same thing happens with Magnus - "if you don't warptime him into combat as fast as possible then you're not maximizing him", but come to find out that isn't the only way to play him.
gak, Abaddon is great and even got a point cut and you still don't see him much, but just because you don't see him at majors doesn't mean he can't do well.
People just don't like to lean forward into melee and would rather sit on their ass with Mek Gunz.
What do you expect, you don't expect people here to think outside the box do you
beigeknight wrote: The silly part in all this is that the metric at which "OP" is determined is that it can't be blown off the board in a turn of shooting from across the table.
Also, if any Astartes army got a similar rule nobody would bat an eye at it.
You obviously haven't read any of the numerous threads created in the last few months about how OP loyalist marines currently are. We've mined a lot of salt out of that particular topic.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Let's be honest, most if not all of the hate towards the "Max 4 wounds per phase" rule is due to jealousy and not any real dislike for the rule itself.
I'm sure, thanks to all the whining when the rule was first previewed, that it will find it's way to Imperial and Chaos units, because of course Xenos armies can't have unique and interesting rules. No doubt those units will be far superior to Ghaz with the same rule (as even with it, he sucks).
Coming from one of the whiner in chief of dakkadakka, this is funny to read.
He's also not incorrect here.
You really don't have any room to speak here at all.
The rule is at least interesting, but it does show that there's been some problems with their alpha striking.
Oh please, a bunch of people are gonna complain they want the same thing. Also Alpha Strike is the product of their core rules. Guess what? Lots of the problems that occur with the game are the result of staying with IGOUGO
4 wounds is a dumb, immersion breaking rule that stinks like a rotting bandaid.
They could've done so many more things "Each time this unit loses a wound improve it's FNP Save by 1, to a maximum of 2+. Lasts until the end of the turn".
Dropping him down to 9 wounds would make him immensely better.
The fact he's targetable is a death sentence without this rule, which characters like Mortarion demonstrate.
But he's not a serious threat. He's slow and expensive. You can't just point and click to kill him, but at people have laid out, you *can* outplay him and not even without that much difficulty. And we have to spend 15% of our total army just to bring him and exclude the MUCH better 80 point warboss we can now upgrade to be way better and synergize with infantry lists.
It's a crime that Ghaz has anti-synergy with infantry lists, but here we are.
beigeknight wrote: The silly part in all this is that the metric at which "OP" is determined is that it can't be blown off the board in a turn of shooting from across the table.
Also, if any Astartes army got a similar rule nobody would bat an eye at it.
You obviously haven't read any of the numerous threads created in the last few months about how OP loyalist marines currently are. We've mined a lot of salt out of that particular topic.
Marines have been blessed by the rules fairy for over a year now. It's pretty much the new norm. If you want to be competitive you have to be able to beat marines. The orginal post claims that Ghaz is OP because marine armies may have difficulty with him(may). That doesn't say something about the current expectation of what marines should be?
beigeknight wrote: The silly part in all this is that the metric at which "OP" is determined is that it can't be blown off the board in a turn of shooting from across the table.
Also, if any Astartes army got a similar rule nobody would bat an eye at it.
You obviously haven't read any of the numerous threads created in the last few months about how OP loyalist marines currently are. We've mined a lot of salt out of that particular topic.
Marines have been blessed by the rules fairy for over a year now. It's pretty much the new norm. If you want to be competitive you have to be able to beat marines. The orginal post claims that Ghaz is OP because marine armies may have difficulty with him(may). That doesn't say something about the current expectation of what marines should be?
I'd say it says something about some loyalist marines players, which the OP appears to be, namely anything they can't evaporate turn one scares them.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I'd say it says something about some loyalist marines players, which the OP appears to be, namely anything they can't evaporate turn one scares them.
I posted a turn by turn breakdown of how I'd attempt to minimize his impact with my emo marines.
Frankly, I wish he was better because Orks are such a fun faction and seeing the biggest badest ork around at the top tables in major tournaments would be sweet.
I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I'd say it says something about some loyalist marines players, which the OP appears to be, namely anything they can't evaporate turn one scares them.
I posted a turn by turn breakdown of how I'd attempt to minimize his impact with my emo marines.
Frankly, I wish he was better because Orks are such a fun faction and seeing the biggest badest ork around at the top tables in major tournaments would be sweet.
I said some loyalist marines players. I wasn't talking about you, you didn't whine, as you pointed out.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.
You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.
You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
No, but if you have (for example) three squads of Devastators in your backlines, you can fire two-three heavies at a Gork and the last one-two at Ghaz.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.
You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
I’m confused as to how you are using the word ‘unit’. You appear to be saying you need to allocate all shooting for all squads (units) before shooting.
Did you accidentally forget ‘units’ means ‘squads’ not ‘models’?
Just do some basic calculations and you minimize the amount of overkill put onto Ghaz. Say you got a unit of three Mega-Bros (theoretical example unit), that all have a Heavy 3 S8 AP-2 D3 gun that hits on 3+. You want to deal at least 4 damage to Ghaz, so you know you need at least 2 unsaved Wounds. With a 4+ Save, you'll need 4 Wounds. S8 vs T7, means you'll want about 6 hits. And with a BS3+, you'll want to fire 9 shots. On average, you should be able to deal those 4 Wounds with a single Mega-Bros unit, and as long as that unit doesn't cost 2k pts, you still have the rest of your army that can do other stuff. If you go over average, you're gonna lose some potential damage, but you'd have accomplished your goal. If you're under, you can try again.
And, of course, we all already do this for every other unit in the game. The only difference is that if you over-damage another unit, they're removed from play, while if you over-damage Ghaz he's still there. But considering the low cap on his Wounds per Phase, you shouldn't have to waste too much damage potential to deal those 4 Wounds.
OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.
Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.
I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
JNAProductions wrote: No, but if you have (for example) three squads of Devastators in your backlines, you can fire two-three heavies at a Gork and the last one-two at Ghaz.
Yeah and if your anti-tank is say a Repulsor or two, you gotta overcommit or risk going under (which would be much worse).
Nitro Zeus wrote: I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
You can fire one gun at a time, and so at absolute worst you're overflowing 5 wounds from shooting a lascannon at Ghaz after he's already suffered three wounds and you roll a 6 on the damage die.
You have to select all targets before rolling any dice. You can't kill something with one unit then pick a new unit to point the rest of your shots at.
I’m confused as to how you are using the word ‘unit’. You appear to be saying you need to allocate all shooting for all squads (units) before shooting.
Did you accidentally forget ‘units’ means ‘squads’ not ‘models’?
I have no idea how you got that from what I said, but no. I didn't think that every single model on each side of the table is one massive unit, or that each individual model is it's own unit, or whatever you have mistaken me for saying.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There are other powers that cause mortal wounds you do realize? Smite is merely the most convenient
well aware, but I simply pointed out smite as others used that as an example....you know, like specifically. If you're smiting Ghaz, then pretty much everything else has gone wrong so it would be moot point really.
It's just funny that people are throwing around, ah simple, I'd just do this and that and boom, no more Ghaz....like the ork player is simply a brainless NPC that won't be mitigating these factors.
Again, not agreeing with OP, but some of the counters have been just as ridiculous.
Yazima wrote: I think this thread gave me brain damage, or maybe it was the corona virus. "Ghaz OP damage" - disproved, "Ghaz OP survivability" - disproved. "I'm a competitive WoW player" - What? "40k takes no skill" - Well maybe you should learn the rules properly before you comment.
Yes this should be locked, its just a venting portal for a toxic loudmouth
Keep it open for 2 months at the very least, I need to prove OP wrong.
You don't need two months. Here lets say Ghaz vs Tau (and its battlesuit based because lolz).
1. I think we agree footslogging to the Great Unassailable Gunline is a bad strategy for Ghaz, that's 2 turns of shooting and then he gets killed in overwatch, his army gets to move really fast, so maybe thats his best use.
2. He teleports into the great unassailable gunline, way more fun. And somehow he makes that 50/50 charge. Now he gets overwatched on... and gets 4 wounds. Now he gets to fight... 6 Attacks... 4 damage each... OMG 24 wounds!! That Riptide that he charged must surely be dead? Plus we'll give Roberts84 the benefit of this being a lousy unskilled tau player.. therefore he forgot to use sheild drones to soak all the wounds, and forgot to use the Riptides ability to have a 3+ invulnerable save. That sucks right... well with a 5+ native invulnerable... big all Ghaz lands... yup 12.96 wounds. Riptide lives, but lets say with just 1 hp left. Next turn... Ghaz gets shot for 4 more, and when he charges again, he dies in overwatch, and that riptide is still alive.
3. If Ghaz fails the charge, he gets overwatched for 4, then shot for 4, then... dies in overwatch the next turn, having done exactly zero for Ghaz, zero for the army.
Now you prove the OP is wrong :-)
If you're running Farsight Battlesuits, I'd at least once try bring in a Crisis Bomb in 3-4" of Ghaz with a Homing Beacon or so, shoot him up for 4 wounds, then charge Ghaz and do 4 more Mortals with Furious Assault in the Charge Phase, and finally take him out close combat with Sworn Protectors for the final 4 wounds and be the Tau Player that get's bragging rights to having killed Ghaz in one round of close combat with your Tau.
bullyboy wrote: OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.
Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.
I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?
bullyboy wrote: OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.
Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.
I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?
well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.
bullyboy wrote: OK, this has been entertaining, from both sides.
I don't think Ghaz is all that competitive, simply because of his lack of cohesion with other units.
However, some people's responses of why he is bad is just as comical. I think many forget that Smite targets the closest visible unit, so no idea how Ghaz will be that target. Others are throwing up around 500-600pts of units of how they will deal with him, like he is the only unit in the army.
Screens won;t be as effective if he's in deepstrike as they will be the primary target for the Orks turn one, and they can do a decent job of that.
I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?
well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.
I mean, that's cute. But I don't see how it makes enough room for Ghaz to get to anything valuable...
bullyboy wrote: well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.
How are they managing this?
With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.
bullyboy wrote: well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.
How are they managing this?
With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.
That's not even counting the defensive bonuses that Raven Guard and Iron Hands get.
bullyboy wrote: well my buddy runs a fairly non traditional list (and does quite well with it) that has a decent sized unit of bikes that will cross the table in turn 1 and wipe out any screen in front of them (possibly 2). Sure, it's usually a suicide run, but he has more to come.
How are they managing this?
With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.
Presumably it's about 6 bikes hitting GEQ, or something close to that
Lammia wrote: I am curious to see what people do with him, but he doesn't seem to gel very well with the army as is, and there are far more effective choices.
Genuine question, how are Orks clearing screens turn 1?
Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.
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Canadian 5th wrote: With shooting a maxed out 12 biker unit is dealing ~3 wounds to MEQ and most lists can deploy far enough back to make a turn 1 charge unlikely. That's frankly pathetic for a unit that costs 276 points and is expected to die on the next turn, so if your friend wants to take that plus Ghazkul and spot me a 561 point handicap I'm going to take that and run.
Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.
Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?
Jidmah wrote:Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.
So you're spending 3CP and way too many points to clear, at best, 140 points of my screen. Please waste your resources on this and Big G instead of doing something good.
Jidmah wrote:Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.
So you're spending 3CP and way too many points to clear, at best, 140 points of my screen. Please waste your resources on this and Big G instead of doing something good.
I don't think Jid sees the investment of a worthwhile one. His opinion on Ghaz is very clear (he's not great).
Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.
And that's removing everything?
Enough to fit in another unit of 30 boyz, a naut, a pair of dreads or 5-10 MANz next turn, so most likely enough to plonk down Thrakka as well - who doesn't compare well to any of those options, mind you.
Jidmah wrote:Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.
So you're spending 3CP and way too many points to clear, at best, 140 points of my screen. Please waste your resources on this and Big G instead of doing something good.
haha, you guys are hilarious. His list dismantled my DA list quite easily (granted, he went first which made a huge difference) dishing out a lot more damage than I'd expect in shooting from orks. This was new DAs too with Talonmasters, incursor/infiltrator screens, black knights, deathwing knights etc.I also saw him take on a top well known player on ITC circuit with this list late last year and hold his own in local tournament (that was vs pre-nerf Fists).
But of course, everyone here is an armchair player that believes that the way they play is the only successful way....until it's not.
Not sure Ghaz would gel with what he has, but the question was posed as to how he cleared screens...and I answered. Took out 5 Incursors and 5 infiltrators like it was nothing. probably should have wrapped the Incursors to save bikes from Talon Masters, but that discussion was held after the turn ended.
Again, most of the responses I have seen so far are along the same ridiculous lines.
bullyboy wrote: haha, you guys are hilarious. His list dismantled my DA list quite easily (granted, he went first which made a huge difference) dishing out a lot more damage than I'd expect in shooting from orks. This was new DAs too with Talonmasters, incursor/infiltrator screens, black knights, deathwing knights etc.I also saw him take on a top well known player on ITC circuit with this list late last year and hold his own in local tournament (that was vs pre-nerf Fists). But of course, everyone here is an armchair player that believes that the way they play is the only successful way....until it's not. Not sure Ghaz would gel with what he has, but the question was posed as to how he cleared screens...and I answered. Took out 5 Incursors and 5 infiltrators like it was nothing. probably should have wrapped the Incursors to save bikes from Talon Masters, but that discussion was held after the turn ended. Again, most of the responses I have seen so far are along the same ridiculous lines.
DA suck against orks though, you cannot leverage any of your army's strengths against orks. In my experience Infiltrators/Incursors are a trap choice against orks, just screening with intercessors is much more efficient.
In general, your buddy is probably running a list very similar to the one I'm currently playing and it's all about shooting stuff off the board with mobile units, screening against that army is mostly to protect units from getting locked in combat. Thrakka doesn't really fit in here at all, especially considering how much support burna bommers and gunwagons have gotten from the new PA, making them decent choices with lots of synergy for vehicle-based orks.
Thrakka is very much a fun choice you play because you want to play Thrakka - he has no synergy with anything and "hits hard" isn't exactly a quality orks are lacking for.
Instead of wasting 2CP to tellyport him in, you can have a killaklaw bikerboss with 5 S12 AP-3 D3 attacks re-roll to wound, 2 more attacks with S4 AP-1 D1, 8 wounds and a 4++ save, who can get use the second CP to get a kustom job for 16" movement and can charge after advancing. Why on earth would you ever want to pay +177 points to trade that for Thrakka
Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.
And that's removing everything?
Enough to fit in another unit of 30 boyz, a naut, a pair of dreads or 5-10 MANz next turn, so most likely enough to plonk down Thrakka as well - who doesn't compare well to any of those options, mind you.
It's just in my SoB only player mind, that's a dead Pen. Engine at best and Thrakka still has 6 BSS to get through while taking an Exorcist and 2x 4 fully supported BR Repentia...
I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
(highlight by me)
I think you missread (I did the same mistake first): it's capped at 4 wound per PHASE not per TURN. It is not at all given he survives three turns.
Each turn has several phases and various armies can make damage (and often mortal wounds) in more than one of them. So he will often eat 8 or even 12 wounds per turn and can still be killed turn one by various armies. As I wrote before just as an incomplete example for IG.
IG Turn:
before the game starts: preliminary bombardment for 1/2 mortal wound
Shooting Phase (obvious, by the way a normal Leman Russ (not even a tank commander) without any orders, rerolls, stratagems or doctrines with battlecannon, Plasma Sponsons and a Lascannon does 5 wounds to him for 174 Points if I'm not wrong)
Psychic Phase: a singly Primaris Psyker can well do 4 wounds between Smite and Psychic Maelstrom.
Charge Phase: with the new Psychic awakening stratagem each charging Ogryn/Bullgryn has a 50% Chance of doing a mortal wound, Tanks in an Emperors fist Company can do D3 Mortals
Fight Phase: the Basic 3 Bullgryn Squad does on average 4 wounds to him
Enemy turn:
Movement Phase: when Ghaz arrives from Tellyporta it should be possible to shoot him with Scions with the superior Intelligence stratagem
Shooting Phase: destroyed vehicles (especially Hellhounds) can do Mortals
Charge Phase: Vicious Traps Stratagem has 50% Chance of D3 wounds
fight Phase: damage from exploding vehicles and potentially "fire on my Position" if he kills infantry squads with Vox.
My personal opinion when I read this was: it's an interesting ability, as it rewards oponents for engaging in multiple phases instead of just blowing him away in their prefered phase. But thinking about that some more I realized that this is kind of problematic as there are some armies or lets say builds that have a harder time wounding him in multiple phases than others and some of those (like melee heavy lists) will have a harder time than they deserve.
Honestly, i play sometimes a R&H army on melee. (nowadays rare due to the state they are in, but even then i just don't see him doing good against what is probably the worst faction in the game atm.)
If you field Ghazzkull i say thank you and then proceed to wrap him in one of my blobs, whilest my artillery/tanks/elites is happily hammering away at the essential parts of the ork army.
It get's even worse when you compare him to CSM beatsticks. The closest good alternative beeing the CSMDP with wings which is Half /3rd his cost, can fly, has access to relics (some vastly better ) is a psyker, or gains more A just baseline. And most importantly, CAN'T BE TARGETED.
And the CSMDP is by a long shot not the best DP available. If you then consider CP cost for the Telly, you can get even more ridicoulus combinations which don't really make it into CSM lists.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?
Just playtest him already. It is fairly obvious that Ghaz has the potential to be a great tool, even if, as some suggested, he does not seem competitive as of yet due to his cost and his lack of synergy with the rest of the army. Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...
WhiteDog wrote: Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...
Sorry, my imagination seems to have run dry. What can you do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds? And how does he get there to do that?
It's basically a rock in your opponent's shoes. He will always wonder how to efficiently remove those 4 points each phase. Some armies won't be able to deal with him at all if they are too specialized (CC armies in particular). It is very hard to not waste ressources to deal with Ghaz is what I'm trying to say. If your opponent has any beatstick you can just glue them in place with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a battle phase. People have been talking before about CSMCC powerhouse being effectively better (in terms of mobility, flexibility, etc.) than Ghaz for less and all that is true. But none of them can win a fight against Ghaz at all : that is not a useless fact from a strategical standpoint.
I'm not saying this is sufficient to make him into a satisfying unit - as said before the fact that he has no synergy with other units is ridiculous (even with himself considering his aura does not apply to him ...). But he is far from bad.
warhead01 wrote: IG dealing with Ghaz. I'll feed him conscripts until the game is over. Tripoint for the win? How many conscripts is that going to cost me?
considering you won't even lower his bracket to the point he can easily wipe them?
He is 2+ to hit and 2 + to wound with what 5 attacks? Gaining more through taking damage.
4 conscripts a turn, 3.5 due morale. about 1 20 men squad for 2 turns off just having him do nothing. 3 if you invest into morale via CP. granted that is best case. so still ' id say abot 2 turns for 20 conscripts.
Edit: Sorry, thought i'd remembered wrongly, is accurate.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?
Just playtest him already. It is fairly obvious that Ghaz has the potential to be a great tool, even if, as some suggested, he does not seem competitive as of yet due to his cost and his lack of synergy with the rest of the army.
Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...
That hasn't answered my question. Listen, I only play with painted models and Ghaz' deserves the best paint job i can muster. By the time I get to playtest him we'll probably be in an edition where he's decent. That ain't now though. Playtesting or not.
To give you some perspective - Ghaz' could have a rule where he is literally invulnerable too all damage all game and I still wouldn't take him. He is too slow, too ponderous and way too expensive to make good use of. His damage potential is reasonable (not good) if he gets to swing against his perfect targets. But he never will (unless your opponent is giving you the game, for some reason). Do you play Orks? You sound like you don't play Orks. Ghaz is a great trap for new/poor players. He has no place in competitive lists.
warhead01 wrote: IG dealing with Ghaz. I'll feed him conscripts until the game is over. Tripoint for the win? How many conscripts is that going to cost me?
considering you won't even lower his bracket to the point he can easily wipe them?
He is 2+ to hit and 2 + to wound with what 5 attacks? Gaining more through taking damage.
4 conscripts a turn, 3.5 due morale. about 1 20 men squad for 2 turns off just having him do nothing. 3 if you invest into morale via CP. granted that is best case. so still ' id say abot 2 turns for 20 conscripts.
Edit: Sorry, thought i'd remembered wrongly, is accurate.
warhead01 wrote: IG dealing with Ghaz. I'll feed him conscripts until the game is over. Tripoint for the win? How many conscripts is that going to cost me?
considering you won't even lower his bracket to the point he can easily wipe them?
He is 2+ to hit and 2 + to wound with what 5 attacks? Gaining more through taking damage.
4 conscripts a turn, 3.5 due morale. about 1 20 men squad for 2 turns off just having him do nothing. 3 if you invest into morale via CP. granted that is best case. so still ' id say abot 2 turns for 20 conscripts.
Edit: Sorry, thought i'd remembered wrongly, is accurate.
Huzzah!
further for 285 pts you get 71. 25 conscripts.
Further further: just for Funs sake: if he get's stuck in the worst possible blob to be in , aka 50 mutant blob with enforcer support (230 pts) this would lead to 7 casualities / turn or in other words 7.14 turns until he himself has cut his way out of it.
You may now start to play Mass Assault Soundtrack off your chosing whilest venerating the blood god or the emperor, or or or..
If he was genuinely invincible he would have some play in ITC.
Really I think the playtesting is going to show that doing 3*4 wounds isn't all that difficult to do with a wide number of balanced armies. I can see it being annoying for those who don't have any psykers (Tau, Dark Eldar, wots psychic awakening anyway...).
As for "how are you smiting him" - well, he's either in my lines or not doing anything. If he's close - having charged something or failed a charge - I just advance my psykers up so he's the closest model and cast smite.
Really its about points. If he was say 120 points like Ragnar he'd be an auto-take. This might be true up to about 180. You would be asking your opponent questions - and not giving up too much if they can answer them. The fact he doesn't synergise wouldn't matter - its just an extra issue your opponent has to deal with. At 285 points though he has relatively little chance of inflicting his points worth of damage and he's giving up a lot if your opponent does put in the effort to take him off the table. You'd be better taking other things.
Who in their right mind will let Ghaz get stuck by a bunch of IG conscripts considering the tools the Ork army have to get rid of them ? This is silly.
I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.
Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?
Just playtest him already. It is fairly obvious that Ghaz has the potential to be a great tool, even if, as some suggested, he does not seem competitive as of yet due to his cost and his lack of synergy with the rest of the army. Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...
That hasn't answered my question. Listen, I only play with painted models and Ghaz' deserves the best paint job i can muster. By the time I get to playtest him we'll probably be in an edition where he's decent. That ain't now though. Playtesting or not.
To give you some perspective - Ghaz' could have a rule where he is literally invulnerable too all damage all game and I still wouldn't take him. He is too slow, too ponderous and way too expensive to make good use of. His damage potential is reasonable (not good) if he gets to swing against his perfect targets. But he never will (unless your opponent is giving you the game, for some reason). Do you play Orks? You sound like you don't play Orks. Ghaz is a great trap for new/poor players. He has no place in competitive lists.
I write that Ghaz is not competitive but not bad, and you answer that I don't seem to play Ork because he's not competitive (PS: I don't play orks but I play against them). The fact that you paint models slowly is of no interest to the discussion. Get back to the topic and respond to what is written.
WhiteDog wrote: Who in their right mind will let Ghaz being stuck by a bunch of IG conscripts considering the tools the Ork army have to get rid of them ? This is silly.
Yes it is silly!
Stranger things have happened.
I've had grots slay a dark Archon in close combat before.
WhiteDog wrote: It's basically a rock in your opponent's shoes. He will always wonder how to efficiently remove those 4 points each phase. Some armies won't be able to deal with him at all if they are too specialized (CC armies in particular). If your opponent has any beatstick you can just glue them in place with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a battle phase. People have been talking before about CSMCC powerhouse being effectively better (in terms of mobility, flexibility, etc.) than Ghaz for less and all that is true. But none of them can win a fight against Ghaz at all : that is not a useless fact from a strategical standpoint.
I'm not saying this is sufficient to make him into a satisfying unit - as said before the fact that he has no synergy with other units is ridiculous (even with himself considering his aura does not apply to him ...). But he is far from bad.
Since you seem to be genuinely interested in this, my personal analysis of Thrakka in more detail: I agree with you that a 4 wound cap would be very valuable on a high threat unit. Dealing 4 damage can happen really quickly if a high AP weapon rolls well, but might take long if you have to rely on rank&file guns. Having something like an executioner or doomsday ark shoot at him and lose lots of damage to overkill is a big win, too. His value against an army unable to deal damage through shooting can pretty much be ignored - orks bring along a minimum of 60+ expendable troops models, which can just act as a wall against any assault strategy while you shoot them off the board. He doesn't really help our own assault strategies either, most other assault armies are faster than orks and thus usually get the charge on them - meaning they strike first and kill boyz in droves, not only denying the extra attack from his Waaagh!, but also reducing the value of the goff kulture trait his new re-roll aura. If you are running Goff and Thrakka already, Makari is actually a great addition, but that's a pair of huge "if"s. Also note that despite having Makari, you still need a goff pain boy for the squig combo. Thrakka, the goff culture, skarboyz and the waaagh! banner are all solutions to a problem orks don't have: hitting hard enough in combat.
The reason why a daemon prince is a melee powerhouse is not because he can hit hard, has many attacks or can cast powers. The one reason why he is a powerhouse is because he is a character and simply cannot be shot. The other, more important one, is that he moves 12" and can FLY. When was the last time you have seen a daemon prince or hive tyrant without wings? A warboss without a bike? A smash captain without jump pack? One of the truths of 8th edition is that there is one condition every assault unit fulfill, and that is being able to get into combat with a valuable target without dying first. Every unit which doesn't fulfill this condition is automatically doomed to be inefficient, as it cannot possibly return its investment because it either dies halfway there, or gets stuck in combat with a unit it either spends killing multiple turns, gets fed cheap, expendable units or the enemy simply moves away from them. When you look at all the successful assault units in this edition, all of them either extremely fast (disco lords, swarmlord, shining spears, storm boyz) or have highly reliable deep strike charges (boyz, blood letters, centurions). Only very few exceptions rely on insane durability, like bullgryns or plague bearers - and I really don't think that "only 4 wounds per phase" fits into that category.
The new Ghazghkull Thrakka has two options to get into combat. One is moving up the board 7"+d6 turn one and then move another 7" - barely getting into your enemy's deployment zone with an average charge. Unless he is going for "board control", there is either nothing to charge, or something he wants you to charge. So, in order to find good target this way, you are looking at a turn 3 charge - plenty of time to kill him or whittle him down so he can be killed in in combat. The other options is tellyporting him in. A charge from deepstrike with 'ere we go has a chance of roughly 55% to succeed, which means that in half your games you have him sitting right in front of your opponent's army where they can try to kill, tarpit or kite him at will. So in the end, the question of what can win a fight against Thrakka is pretty irrelevant, as he is unable to pick his fights. There are units which can defeat him in combat, there are units which can tarpit him for multiple rounds of combat and there are plenty of units which just slow him down for a turn while he gets shot down. In this regard he also compares badly to many other options orks already have, because those can either join the Evil Suns clan and/or use the ramming speed stratagem for vastly improved odds of making their charges from deep strike, or are fast enough to just cross the board and charge in one turn.
Last, but not least, there is his gigantic point costs. Let's assume he did actually overcome all those hurdles - he still has some wounds left, he didn't get bogged down by chaff and managed to succeed his charge roll. He is now in the middle of some poor sod's Space Wolve army and then kills a unit for three turns in a row until he finally gets put down, the game ends or he is out of stuff to kill. He then still needs to kill 95 points per battleround to justify his point costs. Even if he manages to snag and destroy three eite infantry units, there is no guarantee that they cost that much. A warboss has almost made his points back the second he kills his first unit.
I agree with the assessment that points can be fixed, but without the ability to charge and advance, reliably charge from deep strikes, use transports or have some other way to cross the board faster, neither his costs nor his damage output really matter a whole lot.
bullyboy wrote: haha, you guys are hilarious. His list dismantled my DA list quite easily (granted, he went first which made a huge difference) dishing out a lot more damage than I'd expect in shooting from orks. This was new DAs too with Talonmasters, incursor/infiltrator screens, black knights, deathwing knights etc.I also saw him take on a top well known player on ITC circuit with this list late last year and hold his own in local tournament (that was vs pre-nerf Fists).
But of course, everyone here is an armchair player that believes that the way they play is the only successful way....until it's not.
Not sure Ghaz would gel with what he has, but the question was posed as to how he cleared screens...and I answered. Took out 5 Incursors and 5 infiltrators like it was nothing. probably should have wrapped the Incursors to save bikes from Talon Masters, but that discussion was held after the turn ended.
Again, most of the responses I have seen so far are along the same ridiculous lines.
DA suck against orks though, you cannot leverage any of your army's strengths against orks.
In my experience Infiltrators/Incursors are a trap choice against orks, just screening with intercessors is much more efficient.
In general, your buddy is probably running a list very similar to the one I'm currently playing and it's all about shooting stuff off the board with mobile units, screening against that army is mostly to protect units from getting locked in combat. Thrakka doesn't really fit in here at all, especially considering how much support burna bommers and gunwagons have gotten from the new PA, making them decent choices with lots of synergy for vehicle-based orks.
Thrakka is very much a fun choice you play because you want to play Thrakka - he has no synergy with anything and "hits hard" isn't exactly a quality orks are lacking for.
Instead of wasting 2CP to tellyport him in, you can have a killaklaw bikerboss with 5 S12 AP-3 D3 attacks re-roll to wound, 2 more attacks with S4 AP-1 D1, 8 wounds and a 4++ save, who can get use the second CP to get a kustom job for 16" movement and can charge after advancing.
Why on earth would you ever want to pay +177 points to trade that for Thrakka
yep, he has the killaklaw bikerboss in the list too.
So something I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that you can pop grot shields on Ghaz/Makari and use the grots 2++ to shield Ghaz from harm. I am interpreting those rules correctly right?
You can't use Grot Shields on Ghaz, because he doesn't have the Infantry tag. Similarly you can't use it on Makari because he has the Gretchin tag. And Grot Shields removes models from play without allowing them a Save or FnP, so even if you could protect Ghaz with Makari, you'd be throwing a 60+pt model away to do it.
Aftersong wrote: well I meant makari being the shield for ghaz, but yeah forgot about the infantry requirement on grot shields.
You can actually use Makari for grot shields, but the stratagem automatically kills him when the target unit is successfully wounded. So assuming you use Makari to shield a regular warboss, a single bolter shot succeeds to wound the boss on a 5+, Makari dies, without taking his or the warboss' saves or FNP into account.
Shoot one unit at him: do X wounds. Shoot another unit at him: do X wounds. Continue until you reach four wounds. Stop. Shoot other units.
Ghaz is currently so 
.
