Just figured I'd start this thread as I would hate to see War of the Spider get derailed with off-topic threads. I know we don't know the exact name of this book, but we know it has Pariah in it.
So do we feel that this book will contain all of the remaining factions? Necrons, Deathwatch, Sisters, harlequins? Or do we think just a couple of them and we will see one more book?
I did notice that on the Psychic Awakening page map, there is a place hold with a skull that reads "psychic anomaly detected", has that always been there?
So it really could come down to Necron Pariahs (I wonder if we'll get more of a hint on this in War of the Spider when they talk about Culexus assassins), in which case I would certainly expect Deathwatch to be present.
Or it could refer to the Harlequin character "The Pariah" escorting Ephrael Stern, who both appeared in the first PA book "Phoenix Rising". To give more credence to this, the entire series was started with a video of a Harlequin Shadowseer talking about the upcoming events, and it was a Shadowseer that dispatched the Pariah to escort Ephrael Stern back to the Black Library. In Phoenix Rising, Stern and the Pariah talked about a hidden foe that would turn the stars and souls black. This to me sounds very much like the Necrons, and what they have been trying to do with Blackstone.
Anyway, I do find this book to be more interesting than the next 2 we are waiting for.
Turning stars and souls black sounds like it would have something to do with the Pariah gene and psychic blanks, a psychic deadening as opposed to awakening, if you will.
My guess is that it will cover the 4 remaining factions as well as reprint Inquisition since that would cover the last of the White Dwarf Codexes and there isn't a readily available source for their rules.
Sisters just came out, so probably don't need more than a few pages for custom orders and some strategems.
If the Deathwatch part requires a bunch of datasheets to be printed, it's possible there would be another book to stretch things out (probably bringing Harlequins with them judging by the title of this one).
It could be a combination of all of the above. Necron Pariahs were honestly the first thing I thought of when it came to what Necrons could/should get in their PA release, and the Harlequin Pariah fluff does have hints that it could tie in very well also.
I said it on the other thread and I'll say it again here. I think the silent king is going to get a model since he got a bit of an article in WD a few months back and i reckon the title is actually a reference to him, since he has been an outcast from Necron society since before the great sleep and still is. We could see Pariahs themselves get a revamp too, which i think would be a pretty cool as well.
But you can't have Jurgen without the HERO OF THE IMPERIUM and we all know if the HERO OF THE IMPERIUM came to the tabletop, he would just have to be too powerful to use outside of apocalypse. I mean, a primarch in regular 40k, sure. Ciaphias Cain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM himself? No freaking way!!
The main lense for the entire universe is from the imperiums perspective, it would be unlikely that that last book wouldn't focus on the imperium. As much as I'd like it to be Necron, I am betting it is much more likely it wraps up with the characters it started with in the original video.
Either way IMO the entire PA was a major dud for me and added hardly any decent lore but loads more bloat. I really wish they would focus these events on scenarios and ways to play rather then how to build your army on paper. Each book basically just gets boiled down to what busted rule did what faction get. Would have been cool if they released escalation rules for playing in a league and each book added custom missions or advancement for your warlord.
Dysartes wrote: You forgot the Sisters of Battle there, Kan.
I know. I'm still not sure if we'll see something for them, as there were reports that the army pack had "Faith and Fury" tags for the box in some instances.
Dysartes wrote: You forgot the Sisters of Battle there, Kan.
I know. I'm still not sure if we'll see something for them, as there were reports that the army pack had "Faith and Fury" tags for the box in some instances.
GW has already confirmed that PA rules for Sisters are still forthcoming.
Dysartes wrote: You forgot the Sisters of Battle there, Kan.
I know. I'm still not sure if we'll see something for them, as there were reports that the army pack had "Faith and Fury" tags for the box in some instances.
GW has already confirmed that PA rules for Sisters are still forthcoming.
GW has already confirmed that what they say, and what happens isn't always what happens...
I wouldn’t expect sisters rules in a PA book, myself. On Parish - I agree with OP - it seems by far the most interesting of the future releases. I just hope there’s decent model releases and updates with it. Excluding Necrons, the other factions are relatively small in my mind.
Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release. So with that being said, Ephrael Stern almost seems like a shoe in, sine it's a character and not really a separate full unit or rules expansion.
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release. So with that being said, Ephrael Stern almost seems like a shoe in, sine it's a character and not really a separate full unit or rules expansion.
Stern and maybe a getting started box containing the sprues from the limited box set?
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release. So with that being said, Ephrael Stern almost seems like a shoe in, sine it's a character and not really a separate full unit or rules expansion.
didn't the space marine codex came out shortly before PA and they got rules in it. I don't expect any new models for sisters, but custom orders and perhapse a couple of stratagems can happen
No way she could be added without adding new rules (e.g. Sisters Psychic Powers).
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An Actual Englishman wrote: I wouldn’t expect sisters rules in a PA book, myself. On Parish - I agree with OP - it seems by far the most interesting of the future releases. I just hope there’s decent model releases and updates with it. Excluding Necrons, the other factions are relatively small in my mind.
That said, we don't know which factions actually will be in Pariah (if that is even the title).
War of the Spider only has 2 factions from the preview graphic (and 2 that weren't on it). There might well be 2 more PA books after War of the Spider with 2 factions from the preview-graphic each (and some double-dip things such as Chaos Marines with War of the Spider). While unlikely, there could be even more.
All discussion is on the assumption that Pariah will include all 4 remaining from the preview graphic, but while somewhat probable, it's in no way certain.
GW community team have said flat wrong things before too. Pepperidge farm remembers. Also looking at the PA map it seems pretty obvious they've been 'featured' as far as GW are concerned. The big Fleur de lis is the giveaway.
GW community team have said flat wrong things before too. Pepperidge farm remembers. Also looking at the PA map it seems pretty obvious they've been 'featured' as far as GW are concerned. The big Fleur de lis is the giveaway.
Chaos marines have already featured but they're getting some more extras, there is no right/wrong or set pattern now.
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release. So with that being said, Ephrael Stern almost seems like a shoe in, sine it's a character and not really a separate full unit or rules expansion.
Stern and maybe a getting started box containing the sprues from the limited box set?
Stern was mentioned at the start so it seems appropriate she'd be at the end.
Dysartes wrote: You forgot the Sisters of Battle there, Kan.
I know. I'm still not sure if we'll see something for them, as there were reports that the army pack had "Faith and Fury" tags for the box in some instances.
Irrelevant. GW has flat out said they will get.
Who do you believe. Some guy internet who said PA2 is all sisters get or the company who does the bloody game in the first place?
Future tense. Not past. Can't get clearer than that. GW doesn't always tell everything and rather go "we'll see in future" or "we'll let you know when we hear about it" when they don't want to tell but they don't flat out lie. If they say something is coming then it is coming. If not or they don't want it to be known yet they go for "we'll see in future don't we". GW didn't do that. They flat out said it's coming.
Going "no they won't" is about as logical and sensible as flat earthers going "earth is flat!".
Rampant speculation, but this might be part of a new Pariah model:
So, the Silent King returns from beyond the edge of the galaxy with these new abominations - human blanks, kidnapped and dismembered, then implanted into a living metal body. On their backs they carry these pieces of Noctilith, to amplify their null fields.
Alternatively, since this is another rumour that is doing the rounds, it is the mad Cryptek Illuminator Szeras who is the one returning, with his deranged creations in tow.
Let's just hope they get interesting rules and not just a -1 to cast psychic powers in a 9" bubble or something else that is equally useless.
Oguhmek wrote: Rampant speculation, but this might be part of a new Pariah model:
So, the Silent King returns from beyond the edge of the galaxy with these new abominations - human blanks, kidnapped and dismembered, then implanted into a living metal body. On their backs they carry these pieces of Noctilith, to amplify their null fields.
Alternatively, since this is another rumour that is doing the rounds, it is the mad Cryptek Illuminator Szeras who is the one returning, with his deranged creations in tow.
Let's just hope they get interesting rules and not just a -1 to cast psychic powers in a 9" bubble or something else that is equally useless.
Makes sense tbh, because that looks like it's made of Blackstone, which is anti-psyker in nature.
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release.
You know CSM were right before the Sisters and they got multiple new models in PA? Is their line a week too old to be declared 'new'?
ah yes, the old Faith and Fury.."w're not done with marines, just yet!". Forgot about that.
It's possible sisters will get custom orders I guess, but I don't think we will see new strats or relics though. I still hope for Stern, would be a great character to add.
Trouble is, if it's all 4 of the remaining factions (which we don;t know), someone is getting minimal support since you can't fully flesh out every faction. If Deathwatch are in it, they will at least get Chaplain litanies, maybe a new Phobos kill team, etc, so will probably eat a chunk because marines (not anti-marine, I have Deathwatch). Hoping more for Harlequins and Necrons though really.
Oguhmek wrote: Rampant speculation, but this might be part of a new Pariah model:
So, the Silent King returns from beyond the edge of the galaxy with these new abominations - human blanks, kidnapped and dismembered, then implanted into a living metal body. On their backs they carry these pieces of Noctilith, to amplify their null fields.
Alternatively, since this is another rumour that is doing the rounds, it is the mad Cryptek Illuminator Szeras who is the one returning, with his deranged creations in tow.
Let's just hope they get interesting rules and not just a -1 to cast psychic powers in a 9" bubble or something else that is equally useless.
We've had rumours of a new Szeras model popping up, didn't we? He is a more likely figurehead for the Pariahs than The Silent King. I don't really think someone wanting to return to their original forms turning their potential solution into more of them.
Oguhmek wrote: Rampant speculation, but this might be part of a new Pariah model:
So, the Silent King returns from beyond the edge of the galaxy with these new abominations - human blanks, kidnapped and dismembered, then implanted into a living metal body. On their backs they carry these pieces of Noctilith, to amplify their null fields.
Alternatively, since this is another rumour that is doing the rounds, it is the mad Cryptek Illuminator Szeras who is the one returning, with his deranged creations in tow.
Let's just hope they get interesting rules and not just a -1 to cast psychic powers in a 9" bubble or something else that is equally useless.
We've had rumours of a new Szeras model popping up, didn't we? He is a more likely figurehead for the Pariahs than The Silent King. I don't really think someone wanting to return to their original forms turning their potential solution into more of them.
Or the new incarnation of Pariah could be a biotransference test subject, a necron who managed to transfer his conscientiousness into an organic form, albeit with some noticeable side effects, such as, for example, blank like effects.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I suspect that rumour engine pic may be for as unseen Big Mek with KFF model.
Rules are in the latest PA book.
Nah the design is all wrong for Orks. It's defo a necron piece in the middle, though outside chance it's something Ad Mech stole from them judging by the outer casing.
It's not a Mek as it's got too many smooth edges for Orks and the glyph is not Orks related, it's Necron.
I don't see Necron Pariahs or a variant returning as being game changing in the fluff. Imperium dies t rely on psykers to be effective so fluff wise only daemons would really care tbh.
More likely from a fluff point of view:Silent King returns and we do see something happening regarding blanks, but it'll end with the main body of the Hive Fleet being right behind him. That's the darkness and it'd allow a new campaign leading into 9th or serve as the basis for 9th.
If Pariahs are changed to carry around bits of Blackstone, that would be incredibly dumb.
There would be no reason not to just strap lumps of rock to any old Necron construct to deaden the warp at that point (although they've already made Necrons look really dumb,and muddied the waters terribly with regards to blackstone as it is).
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release.
You know CSM were right before the Sisters and they got multiple new models in PA? Is their line a week too old to be declared 'new'?
ah yes, the old Faith and Fury.."w're not done with marines, just yet!". Forgot about that.
It's possible sisters will get custom orders I guess, but I don't think we will see new strats or relics though. I still hope for Stern, would be a great character to add.
Trouble is, if it's all 4 of the remaining factions (which we don;t know), someone is getting minimal support since you can't fully flesh out every faction. If Deathwatch are in it, they will at least get Chaplain litanies, maybe a new Phobos kill team, etc, so will probably eat a chunk because marines (not anti-marine, I have Deathwatch). Hoping more for Harlequins and Necrons though really.
A Vanguard Marine Killteam that translates into rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Marine Killteam rules for Killteam would be ace.
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release.
You know CSM were right before the Sisters and they got multiple new models in PA? Is their line a week too old to be declared 'new'?
'Multiple' = 1 Sorcerer. Got it. And Fabius Bile. Got it.
You are aware that between CSM and Sisters there was the 2.0 SM Codex? So the multiple new 'rules' that CSM got I suspect were to try and adjust the ridiculously out of scale balance?
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release.
You know CSM were right before the Sisters and they got multiple new models in PA? Is their line a week too old to be declared 'new'?
ah yes, the old Faith and Fury.."w're not done with marines, just yet!". Forgot about that.
It's possible sisters will get custom orders I guess, but I don't think we will see new strats or relics though. I still hope for Stern, would be a great character to add.
Trouble is, if it's all 4 of the remaining factions (which we don;t know), someone is getting minimal support since you can't fully flesh out every faction. If Deathwatch are in it, they will at least get Chaplain litanies, maybe a new Phobos kill team, etc, so will probably eat a chunk because marines (not anti-marine, I have Deathwatch). Hoping more for Harlequins and Necrons though really.
I think Custom orders maybe a bit more for Sisters is most likely. I can;t see Stern as thats a whole new model and they are rare with these campaigns.
A Vanguard Marine Killteam that translates into rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Marine Killteam rules for Killteam would be ace.
They've been pretty adamant that they don't want Vanguard stuff for Deathwatch. Hopefully they stick to their guns, because we don't need another time of "Deathwatch are Marines+1".
Edit: And before someone jumps in with "But Reivers are Vanguard!". Sure they are...but they only seem to be acknowledged as Vanguard post-Codex drop. The original intention may have been for them to be something else.
There would be no reason not to just strap lumps of rock to any old Necron construct to deaden the warp at that point (although they've already made Necrons look really dumb,and muddied the waters terribly with regards to blackstone as it is).
What do you mean ? Did they change anything about Blackstone ?
A Vanguard Marine Killteam that translates into rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Marine Killteam rules for Killteam would be ace.
They've been pretty adamant that they don't want Vanguard stuff for Deathwatch. Hopefully they stick to their guns, because we don't need another time of "Deathwatch are Marines+1".
Did they? Afaik they just didn't give them access yet. But if you are right, I definitely hope they do not stick to their guns because Deathwatch and Raven Guard are the prime Chapters for Vanguard tactics - so it would be a shame if DW wouldn't get more Phobos squads...
I don't need a Phobos Kill Team, but hell, I want to have those Eliminators and pick out my friends annoying Aeldari witch characters
A Vanguard Marine Killteam that translates into rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Marine Killteam rules for Killteam would be ace.
They've been pretty adamant that they don't want Vanguard stuff for Deathwatch. Hopefully they stick to their guns, because we don't need another time of "Deathwatch are Marines+1".
Did they? Afaik they just didn't give them access yet. But if you are right, I definitely hope they do not stick to their guns because Deathwatch and Raven Guard are the prime Chapters for Vanguard tactics - so it would be a shame if DW wouldn't get more Phobos squads...
Deathwatch aren't "prime Chapter" for anything like what you're discussing, really. The whole purpose of them is the mix of expertise...and it's worth mentioning that Vanguard are usually full-blooded veteran Astartes. The kinds that aren't easily handed over to the Deathwatch.
I don't need a Phobos Kill Team, but hell, I want to have those Eliminators and pick out my friends annoying Aeldari witch characters
You're more likely to get the whole "Stalker Bolt Rifles can single out characters" bit.
bullyboy wrote: Sisters line is too new to really add anything to this release.
You know CSM were right before the Sisters and they got multiple new models in PA? Is their line a week too old to be declared 'new'?
'Multiple' = 1 Sorcerer. Got it. And Fabius Bile. Got it.
You are aware that between CSM and Sisters there was the 2.0 SM Codex? So the multiple new 'rules' that CSM got I suspect were to try and adjust the ridiculously out of scale balance?
I will remind people that we still don't have a new model for lucius the eternal. Not that I'm expecting him in this release or any release soon, probably the next chaos release.
A big mek with KFF would have been great but Orks have now gone with only Gazzy for new models.
Both of these models will likely be in the next respective codex release (whenever that maybe).
I'm guessing GW will try to rid itself of finecast/fill in any missing models at each of its next codex releases. As well as give the players at least one new unit, is my guess. That is assuming they don't go for a completely new army/army redo (a la Sisters) next.
The possibilities look pretty open but I have my fingers crossed for plastic guard (Valhallan, Mordian Iron Guard etc...) for all of the current metals/finecast.
A Vanguard Marine Killteam that translates into rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Marine Killteam rules for Killteam would be ace.
They've been pretty adamant that they don't want Vanguard stuff for Deathwatch. Hopefully they stick to their guns, because we don't need another time of "Deathwatch are Marines+1".
Did they? Afaik they just didn't give them access yet. But if you are right, I definitely hope they do not stick to their guns because Deathwatch and Raven Guard are the prime Chapters for Vanguard tactics - so it would be a shame if DW wouldn't get more Phobos squads...
Deathwatch aren't "prime Chapter" for anything like what you're discussing, really. The whole purpose of them is the mix of expertise...and it's worth mentioning that Vanguard are usually full-blooded veteran Astartes. The kinds that aren't easily handed over to the Deathwatch.
If you think he means Vanguard Veterans, you are still wrong, because the Deathwatch has those, because the fluff has always said that most of the time its Veterans that are sent, with a few exceptions being punishments usually. Veterans have the most knowledge to spread around and share.
He means the Vanguard Marines that are made up of the Phobos Armor guys, that the Deathwatch most certainly could use.
There would be no reason not to just strap lumps of rock to any old Necron construct to deaden the warp at that point (although they've already made Necrons look really dumb,and muddied the waters terribly with regards to blackstone as it is).
What do you mean ? Did they change anything about Blackstone ?
Things like Necron tomb structures being made of Blackstone, but seemingly not blackstone which has been made warp repelling yet. Imagine how monstrously dumb you'd have to be to base your architecture on a material which can be either made to repel or attract the warp, and then... just not. Blackstone doesn't appear to require any sort of power source to remain active, so there's no excuse for it.
It's not even clear whether 'raw' Blackstone is even a thing - ie. it might all be worked - which would make the situation even worse!
Or knocking the top off of a small pillar in Forgebane causing the entire complex's (world's?) blackstone system to immediately fail. So even repelling Blackstone doesn't do anything without a 'focus'?
Or the Imperium seemingly not knowing about Blackstone until Cawl 'discovers' it. Despite the fact that they were sitting on top of Cadia and six Blackstone Fortresses, amongst other sites, for millenia, and Inquisitors (and the Sororitas now) were using null rods.
Or anti-warp Blackstone being able to be made more powerful by chaotic warp-based sorcery in The Emperor's Legion (what!?)
The Necrons/Technomandrites are searching for Blackstone. But why? - their tombs are literally made of the stuff! We're told that Necron tomb worlds are rich in Blackstone (it's not clear it this is in reference to that used in Necron architecture or raw deposits) so they shouldn't have to look very far.
If natural Blackstone exists (ie. material which hasn't been worked by the Necrons), then why would they possibly build their tombs on planets rich in material which could become a major warp attractor?
If you think he means Vanguard Veterans, you are still wrong, because the Deathwatch has those, because the fluff has always said that most of the time its Veterans that are sent, with a few exceptions being punishments usually. Veterans have the most knowledge to spread around and share.
He means the Vanguard Marines that are made up of the Phobos Armor guys, that the Deathwatch most certainly could use.
You must have missed where I literally referred to "except for Reivers" earlier, eh?
Fun fact: the Vanguard aren't in Deathwatch. I'm not referring to "Vanguard Veterans". I'm referring to the Vanguard Company, which is the 10th Company now in addition to Scouts.
If you think he means Vanguard Veterans, you are still wrong, because the Deathwatch has those, because the fluff has always said that most of the time its Veterans that are sent, with a few exceptions being punishments usually. Veterans have the most knowledge to spread around and share.
He means the Vanguard Marines that are made up of the Phobos Armor guys, that the Deathwatch most certainly could use.
You must have missed where I literally referred to "except for Reivers" earlier, eh?
Fun fact: the Vanguard aren't in Deathwatch. I'm not referring to "Vanguard Veterans". I'm referring to the Vanguard Company, which is the 10th Company now in addition to Scouts.
Except that any marine can strip his Tacitus armor down for appropriate situations and perform Vanguard operations, per the Vanguard Marines materials. Prime example being the chapter master of the Raven Guard.
Vanguard absolutely should be in Deathwatch. They fulfill a role that suits the needs of the Deathwatch. I would expect them to be added. A phobos kill team made up of Incursors, infiltrators, Suppressors with SIA on Incursors....yes please.
If you think he means Vanguard Veterans, you are still wrong, because the Deathwatch has those, because the fluff has always said that most of the time its Veterans that are sent, with a few exceptions being punishments usually. Veterans have the most knowledge to spread around and share.
He means the Vanguard Marines that are made up of the Phobos Armor guys, that the Deathwatch most certainly could use.
You must have missed where I literally referred to "except for Reivers" earlier, eh?
Fun fact: the Vanguard aren't in Deathwatch. I'm not referring to "Vanguard Veterans". I'm referring to the Vanguard Company, which is the 10th Company now in addition to Scouts.
You dont say, the group I said wasnt in Deathwatch ISNT in Deathwatch? I simply cannot believe it, not one bit. No Sir.
We're saying they should be. There's not really a reason for them not to be. Except what ever made up notions you have for it.
If you think he means Vanguard Veterans, you are still wrong, because the Deathwatch has those, because the fluff has always said that most of the time its Veterans that are sent, with a few exceptions being punishments usually. Veterans have the most knowledge to spread around and share.
He means the Vanguard Marines that are made up of the Phobos Armor guys, that the Deathwatch most certainly could use.
You must have missed where I literally referred to "except for Reivers" earlier, eh?
Fun fact: the Vanguard aren't in Deathwatch. I'm not referring to "Vanguard Veterans". I'm referring to the Vanguard Company, which is the 10th Company now in addition to Scouts.
You dont say, the group I said wasnt in Deathwatch ISNT in Deathwatch? I simply cannot believe it, not one bit. No Sir.
We're saying they should be. There's not really a reason for them not to be. Except what ever made up notions you have for it.
That's what I meant with prime Chapters for Vanguard Marines (=Phobos armor).
Besides having diferrent expertise among the individual marines (where I agree with Kanluwen), the Deathwatch's main tactics still are stealth (SEAL-/SAS-style, not guerilla like Raven Guard) and surgical strikes against the commanders of enemy forces. You simply can't face the enemy eye to eye when your whole biggest watch fortress consists of max. 100-200 marines (Talasa Prime) - and you may also have to split these numbers over multiple xeno threads at the same time.
The Deathwatch's main tactics are that they have no main tactics. Their tactical flexibility is the whole thing that Deathwatch are supposed to be famed for.
It's really bizarre though that people are saying Deathwatch's perceived "main tactics"(which again, there are none) are somehow different than the Raven Guard's or Astartes tactics in general. They always tend to favor strikes against the command structures of enemy forces. They always tend to be outnumbered and spread their forces over multiple warzones.
The key difference between 'normal Marines' and Deathwatch is that Deathwatch draws upon different expertise across their squad members because of the fact they have the different Chapters mixed in...and because they have equipment bordering on heretek levels that the standard Chapters don't.
Where DW have traditionally been different is that they were never a fully fledged force before... You would very rarely have multiple kill teams working on an operation. Before this change they were special forces marines. They sort of still are that now, they just operate at large on the table top, and don't have as many rules as before (all could deep strike/infiltrate etc).
I preferred their past version, but I preferred grey knights when you would only get 1 squad and they'd all be terminators as well.
DW are still very specialised, but they also are super flexible to demonstrate that specialism.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: DW could possibly benefit from a Dark Eldar type arrangement. Lots of smaller FoC stuff, to represent different Teams converging?
I'd very much like them to return to being able to take a squad within another imperial army (auxiliary detachment) without having to pay the command point penalty. Maybe some extra options for that squad such as a librarian or captain being embedded. I like options.
I'm pretty much checking out as far as Psychic Awakening is concerned. It's basically been a massive chaos and space marine update. Pariah is just the final nail in the Xenos coffin. We're not getting anything models wise anytime soon it seems, but even MORE new imperium stuff so...yay.
No Vigilus treatment at all, while most factions got something and GW-love-child Chaos Marines got an entire Vigilus on their own. And now they're thrown out of PA, so GW can pamper those Chaos Marine babies to a double-appearance special treatment, lol.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: I'm pretty much checking out as far as Psychic Awakening is concerned. It's basically been a massive chaos and space marine update. Pariah is just the final nail in the Xenos coffin. We're not getting anything models wise anytime soon it seems, but even MORE new imperium stuff so...yay.
Er - technically there is a brand new Harlequin model right there? Its not at all ideal - and I would have hoped he would be fiedlable in a Harlequins force - maybe both of them
You know what, I can smell another big box set coming. On one side you will have Sisters with those two new characters. One the other there will be Necrons led by Szeras and a squad of Pariahs.
Quote this post lol.
I think there will be a surprise for Necrons coming as the Harlquin guy cant be the reason the book is called like that as he doesn't even have rules in the book as Harlequins are in White Dwarf together with Deathwatch.
So we don't actually have anything Pariah in the Pariah book and they didn't say anything about Necrons even thought they obviously have to be the other party in the book as there is nobody left
For me all of that looks like they just wanted to tease us and there will be Necron Pariahs shown off in one of the future reveals
I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
Matrindur wrote: I think there will be a surprise for Necrons coming as the Harlquin guy cant be the reason the book is called like that as he doesn't even have rules in the book as Harlequins are in White Dwarf together with Deathwatch.
So we don't actually have anything Pariah in the Pariah book and they didn't say anything about Necrons even thought they obviously have to be the other party in the book as there is nobody left
For me all of that looks like they just wanted to tease us and there will be Necron Pariahs shown off in one of the future reveals
I'm pretty sure they said the rules for both of them (who have to be fielded together I believe) are in Pariah but the wider harlequin update will be in WD. You may be right, maybe they're holding the necron stuff back but I just have no confidence that is true. After introducing the Silent King in WD (which they did with the new Dark Angel's character prior to him getting a model) I'm sorely disappointed just like I have been with how the xenos have been treated in every psychic awakening book. However we will see.
I really thought that the inclusion of the Assassin rules in War of the Spider was a great way to take something missing and put it into a book rather than leaving it floating in some random issue of WD. Guess I was wrong to have hope there...
ImAGeek wrote: It’s the same, surely. Just DW or Harly players get to buy a £6 magazine rather than a £25 book.
And if you play both? And the factions in Pariah as well?
yeah, it looks like Stern and Pariah will have rules in Pariah (not the WD since they can only be used in Sisters or Imperium forces, so not harlequins).
What a friggin' huge letdown for Harlies and Deathwatch (which I have both). WD rules only....not even a book for both of them, what a crock. I wouldn't expect much from their rules to be honest.
Well, my interest for pariah went from a 10 in my original post, down to a 2....maybe a 1, since I don't have a Necrons or sisters force.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really thought that the inclusion of the Assassin rules in War of the Spider was a great way to take something missing and put it into a book rather than leaving it floating in some random issue of WD. Guess I was wrong to have hope there...
ImAGeek wrote: It’s the same, surely. Just DW or Harly players get to buy a £6 magazine rather than a £25 book.
And if you play both? And the factions in Pariah as well?
Well that would be a pain, sure. But I wouldn’t have been surprised if they’d made DW and Harleys a 10th PA book anyway.
It's less about giving them their own book, but rather including them in an existing book.
A Sisters vs Necrons book sounds great. Sounds even better when you have DW backing the Sisters up, and the Harlis as a wild card as they're anti-Necrons, but not strictly allies of the Imperial either.
Plus the inclusion of the "Pariah" Harli ties everything in together.
But no, they get WD issues. Great. More docs to play 8th. BCBs gonna love that.
Kanluwen wrote: The Deathwatch's main tactics are that they have no main tactics.
Maybe you should read the Codex again (carefully) before claiming things to be a fact that are none.
Kanluwen wrote: They always tend to favor strikes against the command structures of enemy forces. They always tend to be outnumbered and spread their forces over multiple warzones.
That's exactly what I'm saying ...and what do you do, when you are outnumbered?
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oguhmek wrote: Huh, that Pariah reveal was pretty underwhelming.
Imagine if you play DW or Harlis though. It's even worse for them. Don't even get included in the book. They get WD issues.
Tiberias wrote:DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
This preview again showed that GW can't do Project management and stick to their own promises
"We are doing 2 previews to replace the cancelled Adepticon." --> Oh, now there will be 3rd one
"Every Faction will be covered in Psychic Awakening" --> Simply a lie now that 2 of them are outsourced to WD.
Kanluwen wrote: The Deathwatch's main tactics are that they have no main tactics.
Maybe you should read the Codex again (carefully) before claiming things to be a fact that are none.
Read it to me. Because the Deathwatch hallmark has always been that their "main tactic" is improvisation in the field and having a wide skillset to choose from thanks to recruiting from the various Chapters instead of being a monolithic organization.
Kanluwen wrote: They always tend to favor strikes against the command structures of enemy forces. They always tend to be outnumbered and spread their forces over multiple warzones.
That's exactly what I'm saying
Reread the parts you left out.
Kanluwen wrote:It's really bizarre though that people are saying Deathwatch's perceived "main tactics"(which again, there are none) are somehow different than the Raven Guard's or Astartes tactics in general. They always tend to favor strikes against the command structures of enemy forces. They always tend to be outnumbered and spread their forces over multiple warzones.
Those aren't specialties of the Deathwatch. Those are specialties of the Adeptus Astartes in general. Different Chapters, admittedly, utilize these tactics in different ways but the common thread for Astartes is shock assaults aimed at severing command chains or critical assets.
...and what do you do, when you are outnumbered?
I mean, you don't run at the other guy screaming while waving swords for one thing... Yet for the Astartes, it's a valid tactic. Because they're transhuman entities wearing armor plating that effectively makes them human tanks and with weapons that can pulp a man in light armor.
If you want Deathwatch(or Astartes in general) to get a better representation for these kinds of things? Basic Tactical, Intercessor, and Infiltrator Marines will have to go to 20ppm, with T6 and a 2+ save with 4-5W each.
Deathwatch hallmark is NOT to adapt on the fly to a situation....it's to create specialized kill teams to perform a task. It is done ahead of time, not on the fly.
bullyboy wrote: Deathwatch hallmark is NOT to adapt on the fly to a situation....it's to create specialized kill teams to perform a task. It is done ahead of time, not on the fly.
And those kill teams are magically sent to the warzone, prepackaged?
Face facts here: a lot of the Deathwatch bits are more suited to lore, not the tabletop. Those Kill Teams are set up as a response to a specific threat. It's only relatively recently that we started having this concept of "whole armies of Deathwatch deployed to a warzone".
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's less about giving them their own book, but rather including them in an existing book.
A Sisters vs Necrons book sounds great. Sounds even better when you have DW backing the Sisters up, and the Harlis as a wild card as they're anti-Necrons, but not strictly allies of the Imperial either.
Plus the inclusion of the "Pariah" Harli ties everything in together.
But no, they get WD issues. Great. More docs to play 8th. BCBs gonna love that.
Alot is going to depend on the actual WD content and what you want. It should have about the same level of rules as most non-marine armies got in PA, it might even have a smilar level o of lore content.
Its not a good thing IMO but we did have all those reprinted Primaris datasheets instead ......
Tiberias wrote: I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
I'm guessing Necrons will get something big in Pariah from today's preview article: "Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced."
So that 'greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced' is going to be in Pariah since it's the last book, which also means it's probably something Necron. Maybe a C'tan at full power as a Lord of War choice or something along those lines.
Tiberias wrote: I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
I'm guessing Necrons will get something big in Pariah from today's preview article: "Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced."
So that 'greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced' is going to be in Pariah since it's the last book, which also means it's probably something Necron. Maybe a C'tan at full power as a Lord of War choice or something along those lines.
I would think the Necrons will want to use her as she is a anti-chaos weapon which is their primary enemy.
I dont think Pariah is Necrons v Sisters. From the preview:
Who now in the galaxy can stand against the rising tide of the warp? Who will rise to save us from Chaos? Be careful what you wish for…
Psychic Awakening: Pariah will see champions old and new come to the fore, including a legendary, Chaos-destroying heroine. Witness the return of the Daemonifuge!
I wonder with the large negative response to the Deathwatch/Harlequin news, will GW go into a little more detail to put out the fires this week on WHC?
bullyboy wrote: I wonder with the large negative response to the Deathwatch/Harlequin news, will GW go into a little more detail to put out the fires this week on WHC?
Absolutely not. They're going to gloat about the table scraps they're pretending to throw to the players of those factions, and sit on their asses for another four months.
Tiberias wrote: I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
I'm guessing Necrons will get something big in Pariah from today's preview article: "Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced."
So that 'greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced' is going to be in Pariah since it's the last book, which also means it's probably something Necron. Maybe a C'tan at full power as a Lord of War choice or something along those lines.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Tiberias wrote: I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
I'm guessing Necrons will get something big in Pariah from today's preview article: "Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced."
So that 'greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced' is going to be in Pariah since it's the last book, which also means it's probably something Necron. Maybe a C'tan at full power as a Lord of War choice or something along those lines.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
for all we know the hidden foe is a new chaos army.
Tiberias wrote: I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
I'm guessing Necrons will get something big in Pariah from today's preview article: "Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced."
So that 'greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced' is going to be in Pariah since it's the last book, which also means it's probably something Necron. Maybe a C'tan at full power as a Lord of War choice or something along those lines.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
for all we know the hidden foe is a new chaos army.
God I hope not, Chaos forces are spread throughout far too many publications as it is....its really...chaotic.
Let's hope it's Necron.
maybe 9th will kick off with Ynnari vs Necron, since Yvraine said she will return to help Stern/Pariah, just didn't say when. Eldar need new kits (Scorps and Warp Spiders have been hinted in the PA fluff) and the Banshees were given Ynnari heads without accompanying rules to make them different, so.....
Long shot, but here's hoping. Two Ancient races kicking off 9th edition? One can dream.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
Tiberias wrote: I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
I'm guessing Necrons will get something big in Pariah from today's preview article: "Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced."
So that 'greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced' is going to be in Pariah since it's the last book, which also means it's probably something Necron. Maybe a C'tan at full power as a Lord of War choice or something along those lines.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
for all we know the hidden foe is a new chaos army.
God I hope not, Chaos forces are spread throughout far too many publications as it is....its really...chaotic.
.
5 codeices is too many? I'm gonna guess you don't play imperium armies
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
I don't think there's hard evidence that pariah is the last book either is there?
There is not. Early on it was rumored that it would be a 9 book series, in which case Pariah would be it I believe, but I dont believe that rumor was ever confirmed and GW hasnt yet said anything to the effect of Pariah being the final book or the conclusion of the Psychic Awakening series, etc
chaos0xomega wrote: There is not. Early on it was rumored that it would be a 9 book series, in which case Pariah would be it I believe, but I dont believe that rumor was ever confirmed and GW hasnt yet said anything to the effect of Pariah being the final book or the conclusion of the Psychic Awakening series, etc
although deathwatch and harli's getting a WD article instead is.... kinda damning
yeah, not sure what to make of ot, but I can only imagine that was part of the plan from early on given the realities of production abd manufacturing lead times.
Tiberias wrote: I know there is still stuff coming, but those reveals have been pretty underwhelming so far...
DW and harlequins just getting rules in white dwarf is just prime major liege BS....
I really hope necrons get at least some models for pariah, but I am not getting my hopes up, cause feth everything that isnt space marines, right....?
Also in my opinion ephreal stern and that new harlequin character look freakin awful. I guess the poses are fine, but those faces! And hair! I don't understand why GW can't model proper faces and hair....
I'm guessing Necrons will get something big in Pariah from today's preview article: "Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced."
So that 'greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced' is going to be in Pariah since it's the last book, which also means it's probably something Necron. Maybe a C'tan at full power as a Lord of War choice or something along those lines.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
for all we know the hidden foe is a new chaos army.
God I hope not, Chaos forces are spread throughout far too many publications as it is....its really...chaotic.
.
5 codeices is too many? I'm gonna guess you don't play imperium armies
let's see, last time I tried playing Chaos a few days ago....
Chaos codex, Shadowspear booklet for Daemonkin, Vigilus Ablaze, Faith and Fury and a Deathguard supplement (I don't have codex, but will wrap all the mini-dexes I have into one for being genuine). Luckily no Daemons added.
Most I've ever used for Imperial is 4, and that was a handful...Knights, Guard, Deathwatch, assassins from WD.
Most new Imperial books limit your options to soup, Chaos encourages it. They are also getting more in Engine war and war of the Spider, so yes, please no more fething Chaos. Give us Xenos.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
I don't think there's hard evidence that pariah is the last book either is there?
Pretty sure I heard on the twitch reveal them refer to the book as the last, or use the term "wrap up"? edit: OK, maybe not.
If Pariah isn't the last book, then who features in it, and who features in the book after it? It's possible that another book will come, but it's fair to say it's likely that it's the last.
Darsath wrote: If Pariah isn't the last book, then who features in it, and who features in the book after it? It's possible that another book will come, but it's fair to say it's likely that it's the last.
If there was another book, presumably it wouldn't be necessary to relegate Deathwatch and Harlequins to White Dwarf.
Darsath wrote: If Pariah isn't the last book, then who features in it, and who features in the book after it? It's possible that another book will come, but it's fair to say it's likely that it's the last.
If there was another book, presumably it wouldn't be necessary to relegate Deathwatch and Harlequins to White Dwarf.
But why then announce that they'll be getting their rules in White Dwarf if they're going to be getting a book not long after?
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
We've heard light rumors of new armies.. perhaps the new Big Bad is whatever's been chasing the Tyranids?
I'm a bit confused as to why sisters are getting a PA spot over Harlies and DW. They've just had their codex drop and they're drowning in newrules and units, whereas DW and Harlies are both so damn dusty, neither has had any love for quite a long time, and there's little reason to take either at the moment, having been rendered obsolete in the most part. They're both pretty well-loved factions too, from what I've seen. Harlies in particular could really shine with just a few releases.
grouchoben wrote: I'm a bit confused as to why sisters are getting a PA spot over Harlies and DW. They've just had their codex drop and they're drowning in newrules and units, whereas DW and Harlies are both so damn dusty, neither has had any love for quite a long time, and there's little reason to take either at the moment, having been rendered obsolete in the most part. They're both pretty well-loved factions too, from what I've seen. Harlies in particular could really shine with just a few releases.
The marine release cycle has made deathwatch a mess, they could have access to some new units but it's hard to squeeze them into the deathwatch format without it looking odd imo.
Having to balance special issue ammo, bolter discipline and doctrines (if they had them, which is the expectation I'd imagine) would be a nightmare.
Both armies were released in the golden era of "make 3-4 kits and call them an allies codex" mentality, which is why they're a bit light on the ground generally. But if the studio has no drive to alter that then that's how they'll have to stay sadly.
In any event, they're not in pariah which is the thread topic, so it might be worthwhile a new thread being made for psychic awakening: white dwarf?
grouchoben wrote: I'm a bit confused as to why sisters are getting a PA spot over Harlies and DW. They've just had their codex drop and they're drowning in newrules and units, whereas DW and Harlies are both so damn dusty, neither has had any love for quite a long time, and there's little reason to take either at the moment, having been rendered obsolete in the most part. They're both pretty well-loved factions too, from what I've seen. Harlies in particular could really shine with just a few releases.
Well, not so much Sisters but GW-super-favourite love-child Chaos apparently needing a double-dip, lol, even after having an entire Vigilus to their own (with the rest either squashed in one book or getting nothing at all), lol.
grouchoben wrote: I'm a bit confused as to why sisters are getting a PA spot over Harlies and DW. They've just had their codex drop and they're drowning in newrules and units, whereas DW and Harlies are both so damn dusty, neither has had any love for quite a long time, and there's little reason to take either at the moment, having been rendered obsolete in the most part. They're both pretty well-loved factions too, from what I've seen. Harlies in particular could really shine with just a few releases.
Well, not so much Sisters but GW-super-favourite love-child Chaos apparently needing a double-dip, lol, even after having an entire Vigilus to their own (with the rest either squashed in one book or getting nothing at all), lol.
You've got a real chip on your shoulder about this. It was a chance for them to give chaos marines a release wave and an updated codex, nothing more sinister.
The only thing behind them is the main body of them of which existing fleets are simply tendrils.
40k fluff has the Imperium believing that the first fleets were the tendrils then the bigger ones are the the main body. 30k/Non Imperium point of view fluff shows that is not rightand it’s heavily implied the Silent King is involved with their evolution. Pharos going bang started the invasion early. The fleets should have begun moving during PA so they arrive at a galaxy weakened by that conflict and the psychic blankness of the hive mind would cause the most disruption.
I don’t reckon we will see 9th this year now unless they risk a holiday release.
It’s the same, surely. Just DW or Harly players get to buy a £6 magazine rather than a £25 book.
Keep on smoking that unfounded optimism. Deathwatch are a year behind other marines in terms of model usage, and now they're going to fall even further behind because of rules fuckery.
Congrats GW. You've actually made me want to shelve my primary army.
I’m not sure what optimism there is in my post, I don’t think it’s a good way of doing it, I just disagree that it’s more documents you need (if you only play one of them that is).
You’re 100% correct. It would be one book or one magazine. It’s no different. I don’t get those disagreeing with you unless they thought you meant same in terms of content ( which it will definitely not be as good I’m sure, though what do some get in PA, around 7 pages? Could easily be the same tbh.
I don’t think it will end up being the same, but technically).
Either way, was irrelevant to your conversation that it’s the same number of documents.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
We've heard light rumors of new armies.. perhaps the new Big Bad is whatever's been chasing the Tyranids?
Nah -it will be a chaos faction- they stated at the start of 8th that they wanted to raise chaos up as the primary threat to the imperium and that been the main theme of 8th- Imperium vs chaos with a little Xenos. I'd imagine the threat/new armies will be Dark Mechanicus and/or Fulgrim. Stern is connected to Slaanesh in someway isn't she? [not read the books].
And Nids haven't been running from anyone - they ate their galaxy clean and left to find a new restaurant ..
Even the announcement text for Ephrael Stern in PA: Pariah plays up the Chaos Aspect.
2:50pm – A Void Against Chaos
Who now in the galaxy can stand against the rising tide of the warp? Who will rise to save us from Chaos? Be careful what you wish for…
Psychic Awakening: Pariah will see champions old and new come to the fore, including a legendary, Chaos-destroying heroine. Witness the return of the Daemonifuge!
The champion of some of the most iconic Warhammer graphic novels ever written, Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced. She’s not alone – you’ll be able to field her alongside the Sisters of Battle, or with any Imperium force, and she’ll be accompanied by her Harlequin companion, Kyganil.
Of course, this goes in no small part to her 20-year old comic book, but playing her up as "Chaos-destroying heroine" and "who will rise to save us from Chaos?" would seem odd if PA: Pariah wouldn't have a Chaos focus as well.
yes, and this is following from the storyline in the first PA book Phoenix Rising (as mentioned in the OP). Ephrael warns Yvraine of a hidden foe that is an impending cataclysm, and I fully expect this to be Necron in nature.
Perhaps Necrons are the big bad going into the new edition, and the last PA is setting them up as the other side of a new starter box. That's why they haven't been unveiled until they're ready to show 9E.
Necrons being the new big bad is even less likely than 9th edition actually happening.
We've heard light rumors of new armies.. perhaps the new Big Bad is whatever's been chasing the Tyranids?
Nah -it will be a chaos faction- they stated at the start of 8th that they wanted to raise chaos up as the primary threat to the imperium and that been the main theme of 8th- Imperium vs chaos with a little Xenos. I'd imagine the threat/new armies will be Dark Mechanicus and/or Fulgrim. Stern is connected to Slaanesh in someway isn't she? [not read the books].
And Nids haven't been running from anyone - they ate their galaxy clean and left to find a new restaurant ..
Stern's not really connected to Slaanesh. Her thing is unmaking greater Daemons, which puts her more at odds with Korne or just Chaos Undivided at that time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind, was a Keeper of Secrets she defeated. So she does have that tie to Slaanesh...
Darsath wrote: If Pariah isn't the last book, then who features in it, and who features in the book after it? It's possible that another book will come, but it's fair to say it's likely that it's the last.
If there was another book, presumably it wouldn't be necessary to relegate Deathwatch and Harlequins to White Dwarf.
It's not really necessary now when they both could have joined other books easily. Phoenix Failing and Saga of the Beast.
There’s the potential for the exact same amount of rules content (aka naff all) in WD, and it’s just a way to spread things so it drives WD sales too. No reason to suggest this is any indication of lack of effort... until we see them, that is!
Inquisition and Assassins (and way back when, the first Imperial Knight and even further back the Blood Angels 4th edition codex) had me actually buy a White Dwarf.
Maybe they've done it to avoid the absolute toxicity of the community moaning about a PA book being another 'space marine' book
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternative theory is that with how many factions have been in the books of late, maybe they didn't fully think they could balance/test the rules in time to fit them all into the book in time for printing. in which case it could be a good thing.
In slightly related, this is the perfect opportunity to get a read on the lead in time for WD's. Covid-19 disrupting the release schedule will surely be mentioned at some point, we can see how long it takes to turn up.
Maybe they've done it to avoid the absolute toxicity of the community moaning about a PA book being another 'space marine' book
Not being funny but when something is hyped as being this big cool thing for all factions and then you find out that basically every book bar a couple is, in fact, just a space marine codex update (and its beyond question that by and large that's exactly what the majority of the PA books have been) we are allowed to complain about it.
Pariah is a case in point. Necrons have had one new model in 8 years and are a xenos army. Sisters of battle literally got a full new range a month ago but are an imperium army. Who got the new model in Pariah?
Maybe they've done it to avoid the absolute toxicity of the community moaning about a PA book being another 'space marine' book
Not being funny but when something is hyped as being this big cool thing for all factions and then you find out that basically every book bar a couple is, in fact, just a space marine codex update (and its beyond question that by and large that's exactly what the majority of the PA books have been) we are allowed to complain about it.
Pariah is a case in point. Necrons have had one new model in 8 years and are a xenos army. Sisters of battle literally got a full new range a month ago but are an imperium army. Who got the new model in Pariah?
Interesting you make this point, there has been more than 1 book in the series that has provided models for more than 1 faction in it, correct?
I'd quit losing your head about this until you know FOR A FACT that necrons are not getting a new model(s) in this. Then you have permission to be annoyed.
We don't even know officially who is in pariah yet, we didn't know guard were in greater good till a week before with most convinced it was going to be DG as the third faction. Chill out and wait till we have more information.
I'll give you that it's still possible that necrons might get a new model or models in Pariah but I don't recall them splitting the reveals for different models in the other PA books?
2 whole other PA books need to come out before Pariah, I very much hope we don't know everything before it's released as it's a long way off being released (now even more so) and it would be a pretty boring lead up if we already knew everything.
grouchoben wrote: I'm a bit confused as to why sisters are getting a PA spot over Harlies and DW. They've just had their codex drop and they're drowning in newrules and units, whereas DW and Harlies are both so damn dusty, neither has had any love for quite a long time, and there's little reason to take either at the moment, having been rendered obsolete in the most part. They're both pretty well-loved factions too, from what I've seen. Harlies in particular could really shine with just a few releases.
The marine release cycle has made deathwatch a mess, they could have access to some new units but it's hard to squeeze them into the deathwatch format without it looking odd imo.
Having to balance special issue ammo, bolter discipline and doctrines (if they had them, which is the expectation I'd imagine) would be a nightmare.
Both armies were released in the golden era of "make 3-4 kits and call them an allies codex" mentality, which is why they're a bit light on the ground generally. But if the studio has no drive to alter that then that's how they'll have to stay sadly.
In any event, they're not in pariah which is the thread topic, so it might be worthwhile a new thread being made for psychic awakening: white dwarf?
Don’t think deathwatch is that bad. A build your own chapter doctrine is exactly what death watch is. They tailor to the enemy .you obviously don’t get every chapter strat, relic , or chapter tactic.
I’m secretly hoping we have a 6+ month break and GW releases 9th with a new set of indexes with doctrines/tactics, strats, relics, warlord traits. Basically a rule book reset putting all the rules for a faction in one book like they did for 8th but less invasive. PAimho was a mess every faction is all over the place rulewise. There is no continuity.
I’m looking forward to pariah, necrons should be getting some new nice stuff. Hopefully the silent king and pariah elites.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Maybe they've done it to avoid the absolute toxicity of the community moaning about a PA book being another 'space marine' book
When has overloading on Marines EVER given GW pause before?
It's not impossible that it's coronavirus related (I guess we'll get an indication if the first batch of White Dwarf rules are 3+ months away), and GW for whatever reason feels unable to alter their longer term release schedule to accomodate a delay.
If 9th edition was scheduled to be for August/September, for example, and the Phychic Awakening series was intended to lead into that, they might decide to cut a book facing a delay in favour of maintaining the date of the larger release.
Don’t think deathwatch is that bad. A build your own chapter doctrine is exactly what death watch is. They tailor to the enemy .you obviously don’t get every chapter strat, relic , or chapter tactic.
This is delusional. You know what the Deathwatch chapter doctrine is? It's a Lieutenant. A Lieutenant that only works when targeting a specific force organization role (and it doesnt even include all of said FO roles, leaving instances where your amazingly flexible doctrine literally cannot function).
In the context of the custom chapters in C:SM 2.0 I dont know how anyone with a functioning brain makes this argument.
ceorron wrote: If I had to guess it would most likely be necrons vs harlequins. Probably.
Well my predictions were wrong.
If Assassin, Custodes and Death Guard are in PA8 (with Fabius Bile and a CSM subfaction), and Deathwatch and Harlequins are in White Dwarf, then the only existing armies left for PA9 are Necron and Sisters Of Battles / Inquisition, so you are not entirely wrong. I guess they just spread the reveal, we'll have to wait two weeks to see.....
And the rumor ( ) we know are :
- Stern & Harly vs the Necron cryptek Iluminor Szeras in PA9, including rules for Sisters Of Battles + Inquisition vs Necron. It's the last PA book.
- Warhammer 40,000 "9th Edition" later this year, with a starter set Primaris Space Marines vs Necrons.
- New Necron plastic units for Finecast units (Flayers, characters) and "green tubes" units (Warriors and Destroyers), an important narrative focus on them second half 2020.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: Sisters of battle literally got a full new range a month ago but are an imperium army. Who got the new model in Pariah?
Ah yes, famous GW Sisters of Battle favoritism .
Just seems like poor pacing tbh. Something coming out this close after the codex was released could have easily been put into the Codex.
toxic people gonna do what toxic people do.
While a certain subset of the community will never be happy with whatever GW does, I can agree that the PA series has been kinda lame. In concept, it was a good? idea, unfortunately GW hyped it up waaaayyyyyy too much for what it has turned out to be. they started out with a good boxed set(just not $€£¥-wise) & kinda went crappy.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: Sisters of battle literally got a full new range a month ago but are an imperium army. Who got the new model in Pariah?
Ah yes, famous GW Sisters of Battle favoritism .
Just seems like poor pacing tbh. Something coming out this close after the codex was released could have easily been put into the Codex.
Lol. I thought it was wistful wishing the GSC Vigilus stuff was the GSC Codex, given that Vigilus I came out about two-three weeks before the GSC Codex.
The Saga of the Beast didn't bother re-printing the Space Wolves warlord traits with their weird saga mechanic, which was a day-1 errata for the original Space Wolves Codex.
Hell, the "pocket book edition" of the 40K Rulesbook they released sometime last year was literally a re-print of original 2017 book with zero changes, "technically" invalidating 2 years of Errata, Chapter Approved and more for a few weeks there as it was "technically" the most recent publication.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: Sisters of battle literally got a full new range a month ago but are an imperium army. Who got the new model in Pariah?
Ah yes, famous GW Sisters of Battle favoritism .
Just seems like poor pacing tbh. Something coming out this close after the codex was released could have easily been put into the Codex.
Because now Sisters players have a reason to buy this new book along with the big, expensive army that they just got through purchasing.
A lot of Sisters players just spent a considerable amount of money on a new army and the book that goes along with it. Given that, they might be inclined to be more frugal in their upcoming purchases, and not buy this PA book. Unveiling the new miniature early on lets those Sisters players know that they should consider buying the book anyway.
Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
It is easier to post speculation about the contents of a book when all that is known is the title, than it is one where portions of the content are known.
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
Plus or minus a couple of hundred posts on a forum or blog or so isn't gonna be a representative gauge of what's gonna sell.
GW wouldn't have been on a Knights binge for some 5 years now, if they didn't sell exceptionally well. Aside from Space Marines, they are arguably the No. 1 "casual" / "beginners" army that people pick up for not having to paint loads of models and just have fun with big stompy robots. Pretty sure Engine War will be a top seller.
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: Sisters of battle literally got a full new range a month ago but are an imperium army. Who got the new model in Pariah?
Ah yes, famous GW Sisters of Battle favoritism .
Just seems like poor pacing tbh. Something coming out this close after the codex was released could have easily been put into the Codex.
Same could more easily be said of all that extra Marine stuff just after their Codex - but spreading stuff out does mean that to have everything you need to keep buying new books etc.
Bigger problem was all the page content used on reprinting the same old dataslates mutiple times for the Angels and the Wolves.....
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
Xenos vs Xenos (and to a degree, Xenos vs Chaos) fights actually have the potential to lead somewhere different, or if not, at least give a decent showing to both sides. There's some question of how things will turn out, what the motivations are and how things will come to pass. This is opposed to Imperium (well, Marines) vs Chaos or Marines vs Xenos where 'OpFor' will inflict heavy casualties on the Marines, but the Astartes will nonetheless persevere through their heroic second wind.
Worth mentioning that Engine War's thread is a split-off from a previous Psychic Awakening, specifically because of off topic nonsense and that Engine War has been 'known' for a few months at this point(it was revealed at the Vegas Open alongside the AdMech cavalry and Pteraxii) while "Pariah" is NEW! NEW! NEW! for all intents and purposes.
It's not wildly unbelievable that when you have a new topic/subject it will generate less speculation/discussion as more information drops. Look at the "War of the Spider" thread. 2 pages to Engine War's 3 and Pariah's 5.
ceorron wrote: If I had to guess it would most likely be necrons vs harlequins. Probably.
Well my predictions were wrong.
If Assassin, Custodes and Death Guard are in PA8 (with Fabius Bile and a CSM subfaction), and Deathwatch and Harlequins are in White Dwarf, then the only existing armies left for PA9 are Necron and Sisters Of Battles / Inquisition, so you are not entirely wrong. I guess they just spread the reveal, we'll have to wait two weeks to see.....
And the rumor ( ) we know are :
- Stern & Harly vs the Necron cryptek Iluminor Szeras in PA9, including rules for Sisters Of Battles + Inquisition vs Necron. It's the last PA book.
- Warhammer 40,000 "9th Edition" later this year, with a starter set Primaris Space Marines vs Necrons.
- New Necron plastic units for Finecast units (Flayers, characters) and "green tubes" units (Warriors and Destroyers), an important narrative focus on them second half 2020.
Time will tell
If you don't mind me asking- where did the Necron rumours come from? That's quite a surprise - I know the 9th rumours are French but I hadn't read anything on Necrons.. mind you I stopped following threads too closely after Nids got their book and nothing else..Not a Necrons player but it would be an interesting development to see a Xenos faction being featured heavily
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
Plus or minus a couple of hundred posts on a forum or blog or so isn't gonna be a representative gauge of what's gonna sell.
GW wouldn't have been on a Knights binge for some 5 years now, if they didn't sell exceptionally well. Aside from Space Marines, they are arguably the No. 1 "casual" / "beginners" army that people pick up for not having to paint loads of models and just have fun with big stompy robots. Pretty sure Engine War will be a top seller.
Wasn't correlating directly into sales as there are more variables involved, just looking at general interest.
Knights are cool, but a little boring in scope. I would have rather them put these in a WD than Deathwatch or Harlequins. Exactly how much does their range need to expand? They already have a ton of rules/strats etc for what? 1 or 2 models, crazy.
Deathwatch are a great "storyline" force since they can basically be the good or the bad guy. If a Xenos race is trying to bring about an event that saves the universe from succumbing to a gretaer force, they could be the good guys, but Deathwatch don't care because, you know, Xenos.
Harlequins are always that "interruption" army, that just show up to turn the tide and then disappear again. They have featured heavily in almost all of the Aeldari fluff in recent times, especially with Ynnari. Both armies deserve more than knights of either faction.
Anyway, my point is, people like the concept of Xenos, especially after GW has fleshed the living heck out of Imperium and Chaos this past 2-3 years. It certainly is the more interesting area to be discovered, and I can't imagine it too hard to have put a book with harlies, deathwatch, necrons and Stern together. Could have been a great storyline, but alas.
Maybe that is part of my problem, I am approaching this from a lore or storyline aspect, rather than a let's just put new plastic on the table and roll dice with little thought as to why.
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
I think you're misattributing the cause. DW & H are getting more conversation because its a known fact rather than pie-in-the-sky speculation.
bullyboy wrote: Interesting that GW doesn't think much of Deathwatch and Harlequins, yet this topic harvested more conversation (when it was thought to be Necrons, Deathwatch, harlies and to some degree, sisters) than the known Engine War or War of the Spider. Hmm, maybe people do like Xenos and Xenos fighting armies afterall, instead of Imperium/Chaos, Imperium/Chaos, etc.
I think you're misattributing the cause. DW & H are getting more conversation because its a known fact rather than pie-in-the-sky speculation.
I'm talking more about what was to be in Pariah, it seemed more intriguing than the events in Engine War, maybe a little less so for War of the Spider (Chaos again, great). Discussion for what the connection was between the different elements remaining, and what exactly the "Pariah" is was more interesting to most.
If you don't mind me asking- where did the Necron rumours come from? That's quite a surprise - I know the 9th rumours are French but I hadn't read anything on Necrons.. mind you I stopped following threads too closely after Nids got their book and nothing else..Not a Necrons player but it would be an interesting development to see a Xenos faction being featured heavily
I'm necron player and certainly would like to know more. How reliable those are? Would be nice. Guess I won't hurry buying heavy destroyers just in case. No immediate NEED to order them ASAP and if there's even slight chance new ones appear this year worth enough wait rather than invest ~200e for the 9. Good to know in any case just in case.
If you don't mind me asking- where did the Necron rumours come from? That's quite a surprise - I know the 9th rumours are French but I hadn't read anything on Necrons.. mind you I stopped following threads too closely after Nids got their book and nothing else..Not a Necrons player but it would be an interesting development to see a Xenos faction being featured heavily
I'm necron player and certainly would like to know more. How reliable those are? Would be nice. Guess I won't hurry buying heavy destroyers just in case. No immediate NEED to order them ASAP and if there's even slight chance new ones appear this year worth enough wait rather than invest ~200e for the 9. Good to know in any case just in case
.
I wouldnt say need. Want is a better word. My Bloody Rose will not be buying the book so.....I don't need it. I will buy Stern but more cuz I like the model rather than for gaming use.
You will be missing on good stratagems/warlord traits etc.
Stern isn't going to be only thing in the book(and likely bloody rose can use her as well).
Sure you don't technically NEED it. Orks don't technically NEED vigilus book. Sure they will be lacking the most competive unit they have then but you can skip that And technically speaking iron hands don't NEED to buy their supplement. It's free power upgrade but technically you can play without it.
GW will make damned sure if you want to be competive you need it.
tneva82 wrote: You will be missing on good stratagems/warlord traits etc.
Stern isn't going to be only thing in the book(and likely bloody rose can use her as well).
Sure you don't technically NEED it. Orks don't technically NEED vigilus book. Sure they will be lacking the most competive unit they have then but you can skip that And technically speaking iron hands don't NEED to buy their supplement. It's free power upgrade but technically you can play without it.
GW will make damned sure if you want to be competive you need it.
that's gotta suck if that's the only way to play, oh wait it isnt. Sounds like a problem of your own making.
FWIW (and I'm always wrong on these) If the book is referring Necron pariahs then it will be the work of the Technomandrites not the silent king. GW has out of the blue reminded us of their existence recently, and told us the tear has set off anti-warp protocols that released them from stasis, which I would bet is GW priming the pump the way they did with lazarus. Though a book with SoB, deathwatch, Necrons and harlequin is guaranteed to the the strangest yet.
Grimgold wrote: FWIW (and I'm always wrong on these) If the book is referring Necron pariahs then it will be the work of the Technomandrites not the silent king. GW has out of the blue reminded us of their existence recently, and told us the tear has set off anti-warp protocols that released them from stasis, which I would bet is GW priming the pump the way they did with lazarus. Though a book with SoB, deathwatch, Necrons and harlequin is guaranteed to the the strangest yet.
Harlies won't get anything in pariah except for the special character with SoB and that might not even be fieldable with harlies(if the 2 must be taken together SoB doesn't have harlequin keyword...so to be able to be in battleforged detachment with harlies they would need special rule but preview indicated just imperium and SOB. Possible they have special rule they can be taken in any imperium detachment without breaking order bonuses etc but that's abou tit).
Harlequin stratagems etc will be in WD as well as deathwatch.
So SoB vs necrons, maybe Inquisitors. But DW & harlies will be in WD(GW already said so. Don't expect to be in book AND WD)
Yeah that was bit of a wet slap against face of those 2 factions. All other gets book, those 2 WD...
Well at least rulewise harlies can get comparable so they lose mostly on fluff(no big loss) and get it cheaper. DW are unlikely to get access on datasheets other marines got...That's tons of pages to copy&paste to WD
Grimgold wrote: I missed that, no wonder why DW players are extra angry.
Frankly, they can get over it. Most factions are receiving about a White Dwarf article's worth of content. The only exception has been Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves--and those exceptions are only because they copied over the Doctrines, the Repulsor Executioner, and Vanguard Marine items(Infiltrators, Incursors, Suppressors, Eliminators, Impulsors, the Librarian, Captain, and Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, and finally the Invictor Warsuits) to those factions.
It's been basically a day one thing from GW that Phobos kits were not going to be Deathwatch material.
tneva82 wrote: Sure you could just go for pretty much autolose. Games with foregone conclusion are pretty boring though.
I guess you didn't upgrade to codex either then. After all you don't need that powerup either
It really sounds like the problem you have is self-induced/feth you gaming related.
havent auto lost yet. Probably due to playing with like minded players. I dont play to beat the gak out of someone, if I wanted to I would rather step into the ring and do it for real.
Yes I bought the boxed set & for sure didnt buy it cuz it was a "power up". Plenty of other things besides MORE POWEERRRRRRRER. I play SOB cuz they're an interesting faction with plenty of variety in lore/units/styles. I play Salamanders for the exact same reasons & Metalica & etc.....
Couldnt even give a feth if they're POWERFUL or not.
If you look at every thing like a nail, you'll always want a hammer.
So for salamanders I trust you don't then have the supplement.
After all you don't need supplement. It's completely optional.
If you have that supplement then what you say and what you do don't match at all. There's word for that and not particularly good one. And then no wonder you don't auto lose since you have the supplements giivng you free power up...Lol.
I'd buy a Metalica book...for the lore.
I'd buy a Emperors Children book...for the lore.
Not everything is about how bad you can beat your opponent.
Your meta has gotta suck if you're not on the bleeding edge. Thankfully my local community is more about thematic, narrative and fun(which is subjective).
If you need to screw over your opponent to have fun..there's a word for that.
but that's off topic and rule #1.
I cant wait for the models, which is by far more import to me than how pissed off they are in the rules.
tneva82 wrote: So for salamanders I trust you don't then have the supplement.
After all you don't need supplement. It's completely optional.
If you have that supplement then what you say and what you do don't match at all. There's word for that and not particularly good one. And then no wonder you don't auto lose since you have the supplements giivng you free power up...Lol.
Playing hyper competitive games is completely optional as well, maybe they play casually (as the salamanders choice would suggest) and don't care about simply being the best, like no one ever was.
Played Salamanders since RT and could give 2 gaks how "powerful" they are.
I hope that GW releases an all competitive version of the game where every unit is equal to another, share the same strats, has same movement values, etc... just to get the people that seem to want that off of the game that seems to work just fine for everyone else.
Frankly, they can get over it. Most factions are receiving about a White Dwarf article's worth of content. The only exception has been Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves--and those exceptions are only because they copied over the Doctrines, the Repulsor Executioner, and Vanguard Marine items(Infiltrators, Incursors, Suppressors, Eliminators, Impulsors, the Librarian, Captain, and Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, and finally the Invictor Warsuits) to those factions.
It's been basically a day one thing from GW that Phobos kits were not going to be Deathwatch material.
Which is super weird, because both fluff and aesthetics wise I think Phobos would be a great fit for DW.
Racerguy180 wrote: Played Salamanders since RT and could give 2 gaks how "powerful" they are.
I hope that GW releases an all competitive version of the game where every unit is equal to another, share the same strats, has same movement values, etc... just to get the people that seem to want that off of the game that seems to work just fine for everyone else.
Thats not how competition works anywhere except Chess. Every NFL player is different and you manage their strengths and weaknesses to win the season. Just because you dont buy an expansion doesn’t mean the rules don’t exist.. it’s a very odd statement.
You know you can use rules even if you dont personally buy the book... right?
Frankly, they can get over it. Most factions are receiving about a White Dwarf article's worth of content. The only exception has been Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves--and those exceptions are only because they copied over the Doctrines, the Repulsor Executioner, and Vanguard Marine items(Infiltrators, Incursors, Suppressors, Eliminators, Impulsors, the Librarian, Captain, and Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, and finally the Invictor Warsuits) to those factions.
It's been basically a day one thing from GW that Phobos kits were not going to be Deathwatch material.
Which is super weird, because both fluff and aesthetics wise I think Phobos would be a great fit for DW.
Maybe. Maybe not.
It's implied that Infiltrators, Incursors, Suppressors, and Eliminators along with the command elements are individuals with 'a specific set of skills' rather than the 'guys wearing stripped down armour' that Reivers are implied to be in many instances.
It's been basically a day one thing from GW that Phobos kits were not going to be Deathwatch material.
That's bs, and a circular justification for you gaking on a faction you dont like. Vanguard units are already part of the Deathwatch, and refusing to finish the line has been a stab in the eye for more than a year.
It's implied that Infiltrators, Incursors, Suppressors, and Eliminators along with the command elements are individuals with 'a specific set of skills' rather than the 'guys wearing stripped down armour' that Reivers are implied to be in many instances.
Shadowspear's fluff makes it abundantly clear the Reivers are just as specialized a component of the Vanguard formation as the rest of their Phobos brethren.
It's been basically a day one thing from GW that Phobos kits were not going to be Deathwatch material.
That's bs, and a circular justification for you gaking on a faction you dont like. Vanguard units are already part of the Deathwatch, and refusing to finish the line has been a stab in the eye for more than a year.
Show me where the I've ever said I dislike Deathwatch, because I'd be fascinated to see words I don't think I've said? Here's the initial Vanguard Focus for Shadowspear where Deathwatch were notably left out. There were also quite a few postings from them on the Facebook page about it.
Last week, we revealed which new units in Codex: Space Marines will be joining the ranks of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels (and, in the case of the Repulsor Executioner, the Deathwatch too). Well, there’s more! In addition to the aforementioned Vanguard units and powerful vehicles, many of your existing units will be improved by additional rules and enhanced wargear profiles.
It's implied that Infiltrators, Incursors, Suppressors, and Eliminators along with the command elements are individuals with 'a specific set of skills' rather than the 'guys wearing stripped down armour' that Reivers are implied to be in many instances.
Shadowspear's fluff makes it abundantly clear the Reivers are just as specialized a component of the Vanguard formation as the rest of their Phobos brethren.
I imagine Sisters are going to get a build your own order minoris, Stern, and a strategem or two. Dunno if they really had enough time to playtest to figure out where Sisters would need Strategem coverage, since I'm sure the books are already printed by now.
Racerguy180 wrote: Played Salamanders since RT and could give 2 gaks how "powerful" they are.
I hope that GW releases an all competitive version of the game where every unit is equal to another, share the same strats, has same movement values, etc... just to get the people that seem to want that off of the game that seems to work just fine for everyone else.
Thats not how competition works anywhere except Chess. Every NFL player is different and you manage their strengths and weaknesses to win the season. Just because you dont buy an expansion doesn’t mean the rules don’t exist.. it’s a very odd statement.
You know you can use rules even if you dont personally buy the book... right?
So you're advocating for pirating them?
unfortunately that's what some posters want, everything to as equal as possible. oops but chess has a balance issue as well since white gets to go first.
Dont gak on anyone elses game, it seems like a simple thing but.....
I don't care if someone plays min/max spam, I choose to play differently. But then dont presume that's the only way to play.
tneva82 wrote: You will be missing on good stratagems/warlord traits etc.
Stern isn't going to be only thing in the book(and likely bloody rose can use her as well).
Sure you don't technically NEED it. Orks don't technically NEED vigilus book. Sure they will be lacking the most competive unit they have then but you can skip that And technically speaking iron hands don't NEED to buy their supplement. It's free power upgrade but technically you can play without it.
GW will make damned sure if you want to be competive you need it.
that's gotta suck if that's the only way to play, oh wait it isnt. Sounds like a problem of your own making.
You miss the grand point. If someone you know buys it, and their army is now way better than yours, you either adjust yourself or tell that person to not use stuff they bought. Competitive doesn't just mean tournaments, it means winning the game. If you say you don't care about that, you don't even need to shell out money to buys even the core rules. Just go "pewpew" and whoever makes the best noises wins!
I'd buy a Metalica book...for the lore.
I'd buy a Emperors Children book...for the lore.
Not everything is about how bad you can beat your opponent.
Your meta has gotta suck if you're not on the bleeding edge. Thankfully my local community is more about thematic, narrative and fun(which is subjective).
If you need to screw over your opponent to have fun..there's a word for that.
but that's off topic and rule #1.
I cant wait for the models, which is by far more import to me than how pissed off they are in the rules.
LOOOOOOOOOOOL Imagine buying that cashgrab for the LORE.
tneva82 wrote: You will be missing on good stratagems/warlord traits etc.
Stern isn't going to be only thing in the book(and likely bloody rose can use her as well).
Sure you don't technically NEED it. Orks don't technically NEED vigilus book. Sure they will be lacking the most competive unit they have then but you can skip that And technically speaking iron hands don't NEED to buy their supplement. It's free power upgrade but technically you can play without it.
GW will make damned sure if you want to be competive you need it.
that's gotta suck if that's the only way to play, oh wait it isnt. Sounds like a problem of your own making.
You miss the grand point. If someone you know buys it, and their army is now way better than yours, you either adjust yourself or tell that person to not use stuff they bought. Competitive doesn't just mean tournaments, it means winning the game. If you say you don't care about that, you don't even need to shell out money to buys even the core rules. Just go "pewpew" and whoever makes the best noises wins!
I'd buy a Metalica book...for the lore.
I'd buy a Emperors Children book...for the lore.
Not everything is about how bad you can beat your opponent.
Your meta has gotta suck if you're not on the bleeding edge. Thankfully my local community is more about thematic, narrative and fun(which is subjective).
If you need to screw over your opponent to have fun..there's a word for that.
but that's off topic and rule #1.
I cant wait for the models, which is by far more import to me than how pissed off they are in the rules.
LOOOOOOOOOOOL Imagine buying that cashgrab for the LORE.
I found the lore to be great, we hadn't really had specifics about the disposition of the 18th in the current era. HH is great for that and am glad that 40k now has some.
Ya know, when I play IH(with supplement) I don't auto lose to them. it's kinda like the other person is the reason you may auto lose.
Once again your opponent plays a big part of losing or winning, so if they write feth you lists you get fethed, if they write a normal list you dont. Play with like minded individuals. If you must have the stronger list, that is a bed you made & not all beds are made the same. if you must complain that (x) is too powerful, then maybe you should buy them and move on to the next flavour of the month.
Not everyone wants to be an donkey-cave, unfortunately (for you), you most likely play with donkey-caves. It's kinda like you get out of it what you put in.
Show me where the I've ever said I dislike Deathwatch, because I'd be fascinated to see words I don't think I've said?
You've done an amazing job of consistently gaking on, and vocally supporting the destruction of, an army you claim you dont hate.
Your army won't be destroyed if you don't get the new shinies. Frankly, Deathwatch needs to be made into an army that tends to be more reliant on one-off characters or the like.
The Vanguard Space Marines booklet is missing chunks of stuff. It also doesn't actually reflect some of the lore that P19 does, notably that Vanguard Marines aren't all restricted to the Vanguard Companies.
Grimgold wrote: I missed that, no wonder why DW players are extra angry.
Frankly, they can get over it. Most factions are receiving about a White Dwarf article's worth of content. The only exception has been Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves--and those exceptions are only because they copied over the Doctrines, the Repulsor Executioner, and Vanguard Marine items(Infiltrators, Incursors, Suppressors, Eliminators, Impulsors, the Librarian, Captain, and Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, and finally the Invictor Warsuits) to those factions.
It's been basically a day one thing from GW that Phobos kits were not going to be Deathwatch material.
Yeah, I just hope GW doesn't get lazy and neglect to give DW the new phobos stuff. Because, if there is any chapter where that stuff actually seems to fit outside of RG, it's Deathwatch.
I wonder if its the shoulder pads that prevented them from getting DW straight off the bat. Seeing as how there aren't any Phobos themed Deathwatch shoulder pads, and models like the eliminator have fabric covering most of the shoulder, but left enough that you can tell it doesn't have the fancy writing on it. Though, that didn't stop them from painting the dead marine on the apothecary's base like a DW marine
GaroRobe wrote: I wonder if its the shoulder pads that prevented them from getting DW straight off the bat. Seeing as how there aren't any Phobos themed Deathwatch shoulder pads, and models like the eliminator have fabric covering most of the shoulder, but left enough that you can tell it doesn't have the fancy writing on it. Though, that didn't stop them from painting the dead marine on the apothecary's base like a DW marine
Worked fine on Reivers, that have the same pattern armour. Granted, you wouldn't be able to use the start collecting set easily, as the pads are molded on, but now that Infils/Incurs have their own kit, that's not a problem.
The fact that Suppressors don't have their own kit is a bit of an issue, especially if a Phobos kill team was to include them (although technically not phobos, so maybe called Vanguard kill team instead).
I wonder if we will see a line of Omnis pattern armour Primaris in the future, maybe that will be what the bike/speeder dudes from the leaked image are wearing? Would then understand why they aren't releasing a kit if they are waiting for the entire line to be released.
GaroRobe wrote: I wonder if its the shoulder pads that prevented them from getting DW straight off the bat. Seeing as how there aren't any Phobos themed Deathwatch shoulder pads, and models like the eliminator have fabric covering most of the shoulder, but left enough that you can tell it doesn't have the fancy writing on it. Though, that didn't stop them from painting the dead marine on the apothecary's base like a DW marine
Funnily enough that was the reason my GW manager gave me for the lack of Space Wolf Upgrade sprues in Prophecy of the Wolf - nothing on the sprue is Phobos.
Lord Perversor wrote: So it's confirmed the DW get new Stratagems, Combat Doctrines, Litanies of Battle and "abilities" in the next WD, according the preview in Warcom.
Wow, I even opened that article to see if any DW was in there....scanned, and went, nope.
Totally missed the little "btw" piece, it's almost like they're not trying at all, lol.
However, glad to see it's coming soon, I really hope it's worth it.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, I just hope GW doesn't get lazy and neglect to give DW the new phobos stuff. Because, if there is any chapter where that stuff actually seems to fit outside of RG, it's Deathwatch.
That's exactly what I was saying a few pages ago
Lord Perversor wrote:So it's confirmed the DW get new Stratagems, Combat Doctrines, Litanies of Battle and "abilities" in the next WD, according the preview in Warcom.
"Abilities" may be some sort of "Doctrines", but no Idea what that could be.
Additional AP against the selected battlefield role in the context of mission tactics seems fitting. On the other hand it appears kinda uninspired.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, I just hope GW doesn't get lazy and neglect to give DW the new phobos stuff. Because, if there is any chapter where that stuff actually seems to fit outside of RG, it's Deathwatch.
That's exactly what I was saying a few pages ago
Lord Perversor wrote:So it's confirmed the DW get new Stratagems, Combat Doctrines, Litanies of Battle and "abilities" in the next WD, according the preview in Warcom.
"Abilities" may be some sort of "Doctrines", but no Idea what that could be.
Additional AP against the selected battlefield role in the context of mission tactics seems fitting. On the other hand it appears kinda uninspired.
In the Table of Contents, it specifically says Doctrines.
What it does seem to indicate though, is no Phobos inclusion. The total page count is roughly 6, so Intro (1), datasheet for Chaplain, Primaris Chaplain, and Chaplain in terminator armour (1.5), strats (1), doctrines (1) and litanies (1). Might be able to share some of the page space with 1 of the chaplains or doctrines, but need some room for pictures too. Definitely not getting any Lore associated fluff for PA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although I guess talk of Deathwatch and Harlequins (outside of Stern's companion) and no longer on topic for this thread.....which is a real shame.
Lord Perversor wrote: So it's confirmed the DW get new Stratagems, Combat Doctrines, Litanies of Battle and "abilities" in the next WD, according the preview in Warcom.
Wow, I even opened that article to see if any DW was in there....scanned, and went, nope.
Totally missed the little "btw" piece, it's almost like they're not trying at all, lol.
However, glad to see it's coming soon, I really hope it's worth it.
I did a double take when I saw it, thinking it might have been a picture of the new Harlequins character fighting alongside harlequins...
....nope, it was Eldrad, they re-used a picture from Death Masque in 7th ed, AKA the last time the harlequins got any real attention whatsoever, and the only new miniature they could scrounge up for them was an HQ for a different faction....lol.
If Deathwatch don't at least get a new psychic discipline, I'm convinced that they'll end up a supplement the next time a new edition comes around. Deathwatch psykers are supposed to be really defensive, and having mortal wound protection through them would be helpful for the psyker hole that doctrines will bring.
We can be certain that doctrines won't be enough to fill the anti-tank hole that soup fills, but hopefully we'll get something unique beyond a single uninspired litany and an unhelpful superdoctrine.
Lord Damocles wrote: Hmm. So Deathwatch were presumably never getting a proper Psychic Awakening book. Bit of a plot twist.
Does it count as a plot twist today when it was confirmed on Saturday's preview livestream? Same goes for the Harlequins, as far as we're aware.
It wouldn't have been out of the realms of possibility that Deathwatch and Harlequins were originally intended to be in a proper book, but got pushed to White Dwarf for reasons unknown (global pandemic might do it...) given the timing of the anouncement on Saturday.
If they're in next month's White Dwarf though, that means that the decision was taken at least four months ago.
It then becomes somewhat curious that GW would imply for so long that they were getting a book (they were part of the original anouncement for the Psychic Awakening series).
Lord Damocles wrote: Hmm. So Deathwatch were presumably never getting a proper Psychic Awakening book. Bit of a plot twist.
Does it count as a plot twist today when it was confirmed on Saturday's preview livestream? Same goes for the Harlequins, as far as we're aware.
It wouldn't have been out of the realms of possibility that Deathwatch and Harlequins were originally intended to be in a proper book, but got pushed to White Dwarf for reasons unknown (global pandemic might do it...) given the timing of the anouncement on Saturday.
If they're in next month's White Dwarf though, that means that the decision was taken at least four months ago.
It then becomes somewhat curious that GW would imply for so long that they were getting a book (they were part of the original anouncement for the Psychic Awakening series).
especially when you see that Knights, Custodes, Assassins and Fabius Bile are getting entries in PA.....really dumbfounded actually.
Deathwatch suffer from extremely limited HQ choices as well which is obnoxious. In the one army I don't want to use a bunch of HQs I have to in order to take more troops.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Deathwatch suffer from extremely limited HQ choices as well which is obnoxious. In the one army I don't want to use a bunch of HQs I have to in order to take more troops.
Never had an issue with DW characters personally. Watch Master, Libby, 2 Captains for dual battalion.
The thing I like the most about the Deathwatch HQ section is that you can have a Chapter Master equivalent without spending a CP. Power armor guys with 2+ saves used to be more common back in the day.
Man, all I want is a Vanguard kill-team with Incursors, Infiltrators and a Suppressor....with a new Primaris Blackstar equivalent dropship, with all the dakka. Keep the sleek lines of the Corvus (none of this other primaris face-only-a-mother-could-love vehicles), but add in some sleek rules to make the flyer actually playable.
cuda1179 wrote: The thing I like the most about the Deathwatch HQ section is that you can have a Chapter Master equivalent without spending a CP. Power armor guys with 2+ saves used to be more common back in the day.
They can't keep up with anything close to mobile though is an issue though.
bullyboy wrote: Man, all I want is a Vanguard kill-team with Incursors, Infiltrators and a Suppressor....with a new Primaris Blackstar equivalent dropship, with all the dakka. Keep the sleek lines of the Corvus (none of this other primaris face-only-a-mother-could-love vehicles), but add in some sleek rules to make the flyer actually playable.
One can dream.
This, but also rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Killteams in Killteam. Make the decent enough models a threat with special issue ammunition.
bullyboy wrote: Man, all I want is a Vanguard kill-team with Incursors, Infiltrators and a Suppressor....with a new Primaris Blackstar equivalent dropship, with all the dakka. Keep the sleek lines of the Corvus (none of this other primaris face-only-a-mother-could-love vehicles), but add in some sleek rules to make the flyer actually playable.
One can dream.
This, but also rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Killteams in Killteam. Make the decent enough models a threat with special issue ammunition.
bullyboy wrote: Man, all I want is a Vanguard kill-team with Incursors, Infiltrators and a Suppressor....with a new Primaris Blackstar equivalent dropship, with all the dakka. Keep the sleek lines of the Corvus (none of this other primaris face-only-a-mother-could-love vehicles), but add in some sleek rules to make the flyer actually playable.
One can dream.
This, but also rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Killteams in Killteam. Make the decent enough models a threat with special issue ammunition.
And this right here is why it's not happening.
That makes zero sense. They don't have any AP currently, unlike Intercessor bolt rifles, so SIA would hardly make them OP, lol.
bullyboy wrote: Man, all I want is a Vanguard kill-team with Incursors, Infiltrators and a Suppressor....with a new Primaris Blackstar equivalent dropship, with all the dakka. Keep the sleek lines of the Corvus (none of this other primaris face-only-a-mother-could-love vehicles), but add in some sleek rules to make the flyer actually playable.
One can dream.
This, but also rules for Deathwatch Vanguard Killteams in Killteam. Make the decent enough models a threat with special issue ammunition.
And this right here is why it's not happening.
Yeah I'm not seeing how SIA which somehow did not make Reivers broken would somehow make Infiltrators or...infestors broken?
I must have missed Reivers having Omni-Scramblers, Marksman Bolt Carbines, Smoke Grenades, Infiltrator Comms-Arrays? Must have missed them having Occulus Bolt Carbines and Haywire Mines as well!
But I really must have missed them being a Troops option instead of an Elite?
Kanluwen wrote: I must have missed Reivers having Omni-Scramblers, Marksman Bolt Carbines, Smoke Grenades, Infiltrator Comms-Arrays? Must have missed them having Occulus Bolt Carbines and Haywire Mines as well!
But I really must have missed them being a Troops option instead of an Elite?
Reivers in Fortis Kill Team are Troops. So yes, you did miss it.
Kanluwen wrote: I must have missed Reivers having Omni-Scramblers, Marksman Bolt Carbines, Smoke Grenades, Infiltrator Comms-Arrays? Must have missed them having Occulus Bolt Carbines and Haywire Mines as well!
But I really must have missed them being a Troops option instead of an Elite?
Reivers in Fortis Kill Team are Troops. So yes, you did miss it.
So one out of how many things I listed there?
I get that you want it, but why should you get it? What's the big deal with letting it remain a non-Deathwatch thing?
I get that you want it, but why should you get it? What's the big deal with letting it remain a non-Deathwatch thing?
Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?
The fact that you dont comprehend why leaving an army with gaping holes in their roster is a bad thing speaks volumes.
This is one of the many problem with all the Marine sub factions not being from the same dex - they all should have the same base units but then you get major balance issues.....
I get that you want it, but why should you get it? What's the big deal with letting it remain a non-Deathwatch thing?
Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?
The fact that you dont comprehend why leaving an army with gaping holes in their roster is a bad thing speaks volumes.
Deathwatch have lasted this long without Vanguard stuff, why do they suddenly need it now?
If you want to argue that Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels should become a supplement book, ala the 'codex' Chapters? I'm down for it.
Deathwatch have lasted this long without Vanguard stuff, why do they suddenly need it now?
You're not even trying to hide your bad faith arguments at this point. Deathwatch havent lasted. Theyre a sub-par army with significant deficiencies in their roster and ability loadout, especially in the context of every other Marine army.
If you want to argue that Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels should become a supplement book, ala the 'codex' Chapters? I'm down for it.
Thats not remotely what I'm saying, and you know it, but because you hate the supplement concept you're once again gaking on another army you want destroyed. Literally all you've done in this thread is babble on and on and on about how Deathwatch magically deserve to get the short end of the stick. So I'll ask again:
Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?
Deathwatch have lasted this long without Vanguard stuff, why do they suddenly need it now?
You're not even trying to hide your bad faith arguments at this point. Deathwatch havent lasted. Theyre a sub-par army with significant deficiencies in their roster and ability loadout, especially in the context of every other Marine army.
Which has and has never had anything to do with the lack of Vanguard units. Unless we're going to pretend that a significant reason why Deathwatch were considered successful last edition was not their formations and the abilities tied to those formations or gimmicky lists like loading up on frag cannons, storm shields, etc etc?
If you want to argue that Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels should become a supplement book, ala the 'codex' Chapters? I'm down for it.
Thats not remotely what I'm saying, and you know it, but because you hate the supplement concept you're once again gaking on another army you want destroyed.
...the hell? who do you think I am? I genuinely cannot think of a time where I have done anything but support the supplement concept that we saw with the Marines book. The only thing I realistically have stated my dislike for was that they dragged out the releases and didn't add enough to the various subfactions. We should have seen 'signature units' for each Chapter and their Successors.
Literally all you've done in this thread is babble on and on and on about how Deathwatch magically deserve to get the short end of the stick. So I'll ask again:
Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?
And I'll say again: why do you need them so badly?
I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.
If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.
Deathwatch should have Vanguard Primaris if for no other reason than that is how Primaris operate. In most chapters becoming an Intercessor is like becoming a Tactical Marine. The space marine had to spend time as a Reiver, Hellblaster and who knows what else to reach the honor of being an Intercessor. Combine that with the largely modular design of Mark X armor, it is entirely expected that Deathwatch Primaris marine should have both the technical knowledge, experience and quite probably the equipment to equip themselves to whichever role the current mission involves. Vanguard Primaris in particular seem well suited for a large percent of Deathwatch missions.
Mechanically, I am less certain as I don't know how disruptive giving Deathwatch all Vanguard Primaris options. I just don't know much about Deathwatch beyond playing against them in Kill Team and having a passing knowledge of the different types of SIA. My gut says it probably isn't that much of an issue. If it is an issue, there is always increasing the ppm cost of said Primaris marine, or failing that, complete denial of SIA. Which I in the case of Eliminators already having their own special ammo don't need Deathwatch SIA as well. I do think Deathwatch should have access to Eliminators though as well as all the rest of the Primaris Infantry. Probably the Impulsor at very least of Primaris vehicles maybe even the Repulsor.
As a C:SM Primaris only player, I am not bothered by the idea that my entire army is also available to Deathwatch as long as the game can try to find an appropriate way to balance the two.
Which has and has never had anything to do with the lack of Vanguard units. Unless we're going to pretend that a significant reason why Deathwatch were considered successful last edition was not their formations and the abilities tied to those formations or gimmicky lists like loading up on frag cannons, storm shields, etc etc?
It absolutely has to do with the lack of the Vanguard, and the other Primaris wave 2 units that Deathwatch have been denied. They're not the only issue facing the army, but they're a significant component.
But nice try playing the "BUT MAH 7TH EDITION!!!!" card as a distraction, and trying to shame DW players for utilizing the few tools at their disposal to try and be successful with the army.
...the hell? who do you think I am? I genuinely cannot think of a time where I have done anything but support the supplement concept that we saw with the Marines book. The only thing I realistically have stated my dislike for was that they dragged out the releases and didn't add enough to the various subfactions. We should have seen 'signature units' for each Chapter and their Successors.
And yet here you are, doing your damndest to justify denying that kind of an expansion (an expansion I might add that every other Marine army has gotten) to the Deathwatch.
I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.
Then stop defending them. If you have no concept of the justification, all you're doing is rubbing salt on the wounds of a group of pissed off people with your constant "YOU DONT DESERVE ANYTHING NICE, SHUT THE feth UP AND ACCEPT YOUR MEDIOCRITY" train that you've been on this entire thread.
Kanluwen wrote: I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.
If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.
Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.
Balance is not the reason. a) gw doesn't care about that one b) even if they did there's nothing inheritent there that makes it broken. If it's too good for current point costs those can be increased anyway
Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.
Kindly explain the Impulsor and Invictor then. How about showing me the "deathwatch shoulder pad" that goes on the Repulsor Executioner, and was magically added with the pre-supplement update? Or why the Reiver model, which doesnt have a Deathwatch Phobos shoulder pad, remains in the codex.
I think you don't understand what supplements are being referred to.
Sucks that you don't get what you want. But at this juncture, there's still at least the potential that they give a "Phobos" option for your Primaris killteams with the wargear.
BertBert wrote: Your problem might be that Deathwatch are not an army to begin with.
Grey Knights are not an army.
Vanguard units are thematically hyper-appropriate for Deathwatch, and they need rules for 40K and Killteam.
On the tangent of mixing space marines back together, I’m heavily in favor of keeping Codex: Space Marines as it is (more or less) and throwing all the codex non-compliant regular chapters together into Codex Non—Compliant Space Marines. BA, DA, SW, and mayb Black Templars get thrown in here, along with a bunch of rules for custom non-compliant chapters.
Now, Grey Knights and Deathwatch either get put into Codex: Space Marine Specialists or are our into some kind of Imperial Agents codex.
DW are in an odd spot. A ton of unique features of the faction are in wargear options of traditional marine kits that GW seems to be finally ready to retire. We've got Primaris units, but without any unique weapon loadouts they're only differentiated by unit mixing and SIA, the former of which GW hasn't quite figured out how to make enticing and the latter of which has been largely outshined by Combat Doctrines.
The faction isn't really that far off the mark though honestly. It just feels like its in a weird place where its hard to make anything new for us until GW figures out how to make us properly Primaris compatible.
BertBert wrote: Your problem might be that Deathwatch are not an army to begin with.
Grey Knights are not an army.
Vanguard units are thematically hyper-appropriate for Deathwatch, and they need rules for 40K and Killteam.
On the tangent of mixing space marines back together, I’m heavily in favor of keeping Codex: Space Marines as it is (more or less) and throwing all the codex non-compliant regular chapters together into Codex Non—Compliant Space Marines. BA, DA, SW, and mayb Black Templars get thrown in here, along with a bunch of rules for custom non-compliant chapters.
Now, Grey Knights and Deathwatch either get put into Codex: Space Marine Specialists or are our into some kind of Imperial Agents codex.
Why do people keep saying the Angels are non compliant - they are by their own lore as compliant or more than many other Chapters. They just had codexes and then loads of extra models which others did not get. Anyone familiar with the 40k lore knows that the Space Marines have loads of odd stuff in various Chapters. Loads of cool stuf that could have been - like the Mentor Legion.
I would have loved for GK and Dw to be a Elite option for All Imperials like Assassins and Inquisitors but we are stuck with giant Baby Carriers and that sort of crap the same as Wolf Wolf Wolves. It sadly ain't going back.
Kanluwen wrote: I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.
If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.
Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.
Come on now. The reason people want them is because the models exist. If you want to claim 'no models no rules' over shoulder pads, you've wiped out all custom chapters, a good chunk of the named, canonical ones, all craftworlds, tyrant hive fleets, any non-Cadian/Catachan guard regiments and so on. This is going to a very silly place.
Kanluwen wrote: I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.
If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.
Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.
Come on now. The reason people want them is because the models exist. If you want to claim 'no models no rules' over shoulder pads, you've wiped out all custom chapters, a good chunk of the named, canonical ones, all craftworlds, tyrant hive fleets, any non-Cadian/Catachan guard regiments and so on. This is going to a very silly place.
Actually GW pretty much did that themselves via giving most of the good special characters to particular sub factions. Also Deathwatch suffers other glaring issues with Wargear and weapons. You can't have Legends Dreads with Autocannons for example.
What the hell are you two talking about? They're both armies.
And as said, above, BA and DAs are Codex Chapters. Perhaps Codex+, with their unique additions, but they're not completely divergent like the Woofs and Templars. They still have 10 companies, still divide them up in roughly the same manner as bog-standard Codex Chapters.
Sterling191 wrote: How about showing me the "deathwatch shoulder pad" that goes on the Repulsor Executioner...
Kind of a disingenuous argument there, given that no vehicles have shoulder pads, and you know that.
The shoulder pad issue is not an issue at all, unless we are talking Suppressor only. Reivers are a thing, and they take the DW shoulder pad the same as an Incursor or Infiltrator would. Heck, i just built one last night from an ETB Reiver, Incursor head and arms.
Now, if the intention is to create a Vanguard kill team that included suppressors (which would make sense), the fact that the suppressor does not have it;s own kit yet might be the only reason they are not included. Same with the characters. It certainly has zero relation to lore or fluff, that is ridiculous. GW are probably just waiting for the next release to update them as a full 8.5 codex (maybe hence the WD treatment too). Le's see what releases are mentioned on the 18th as to the future of the marine series (if they reveal anything).
Sterling191 wrote: You are mistaken. The DW upgrade sprue has components for vehicles on it. Components that fit perfectly fine on all the Primaris vehicles I might add.
So we've gone from disingenuous to outright moving the goalposts.
You said shoulder pads. Now you're talking about icon/bits.
Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.
Edited for redundant example.
I mean, totally true...but 2000 point games aren't exactly representative of a full army clash on a table, so hardly all that relevant as far as the game goes.
In the context of the game, Deathwatch are currently designed to act as both a soup component (just like every Imperium faction) and a standalone force.
he's not wrong....Deathwatch should practically be a singular kill team in a corvus, but alas, that is not what we have. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in.
This is not a viewpoint of a DW hater either, i have quite a sizeable force (over 60 vets, not counting VVs, bikers or terms).
Then we had Primaris added, with a Fortis kill team. As soon as the vanguard is available in separate kits, I expect we'll get a Vanguard one too.
What the hell are you two talking about? They're both armies.
And as said, above, BA and DAs are Codex Chapters. Perhaps Codex+, with their unique additions, but they're not completely divergent like the Woofs and Templars. They still have 10 companies, still divide them up in roughly the same manner as bog-standard Codex Chapters.
Sterling191 wrote: How about showing me the "deathwatch shoulder pad" that goes on the Repulsor Executioner...
Kind of a disingenuous argument there, given that no vehicles have shoulder pads, and you know that.
A cheeky response to Deathwatch not being an army.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.
Edited for redundant example.
This is 100% not true. At inception, they were designed to number around chapter strength with a single Watch Commander who would be in charge of the whole organization. In recent years, it's true that the Deathwatch has become more decentralized due to deploying mainly in Kill-Teams, but there are about 5-10 marines in a Kill-Team, 4 Kill-Teams to a Watch Company (plus one Watch Captain), and 5 Companies to a Watch Master, plus about 10 support staff (librarians+dreads+chaplains). That puts a Watch Fortress at around 150ish members on average. According to the Lexicanum, there's about 30 Watch Fortresses, and that's not even including Watch Stations which will have anywhere between a single squad and a couple of squads. So in other words, there are easily 3000 Deathwatch marines out there.
As for the topic of unity, there are a few mentions of multiple Watch Companies working together in the codex. So in other words, they're about as organized as any other chapter when they need to be, they have more manpower, but it's just that they don't often /need/ to work together.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.
Edited for redundant example.
Same is true for all (former) Chaos Legions.
The whole point was that they disbanded, broke apart, fell into in-fighting, split off doing different agendas (e.g. Ahriman's Prodigal Sons, etc..).
If that new Harlequin character really can't be used by the Harlequin army who currently have zero special characters, I really don't know what to say.
dan2026 wrote: If that new Harlequin character really can't be used by the Harlequin army who currently have zero special characters, I really don't know what to say.
That some messed up gak.
I'd say that's pretty par of the course for Aeldari these days.
Hell, Ynnari have characters in the lore that joined them like Jain Zar and Lelith and a former Midnight Sorrow Solitaire , which Ynnari armies are explicitly forbidden to take by the rules in direct contradiction of the fluff on these characters.
dan2026 wrote: If that new Harlequin character really can't be used by the Harlequin army who currently have zero special characters, I really don't know what to say.
That some messed up gak.
I'd say that's pretty par of the course for Aeldari these days.
Hell, Ynnari have characters in the lore that joined them like Jain Zar and Lelith and a former Midnight Sorrow Solitaire , which Ynnari armies are explicitly forbidden to take by the rules in direct contradiction of the fluff on these characters.
It's weird when the rules do a better job of sticking to lore than the actual stories. GW need to get their writers to actually know what they're writing about.
Kanluwen wrote: I must have missed Reivers having Omni-Scramblers, Marksman Bolt Carbines, Smoke Grenades, Infiltrator Comms-Arrays? Must have missed them having Occulus Bolt Carbines and Haywire Mines as well!
But I really must have missed them being a Troops option instead of an Elite?
What exactly is the difference between that particular suite of equipment getting access to SIA and, I don't know, storm bolters? Does the special rule from the occulus bolt carbine seriously equal DOUBLE the shots a normal bolter gets? And couldn't you also say the same thing for snazzbang grenades, batman grapple thingies, and halloween spooktacular masks (Sorry, I don't know the stupid-ass GW official names for all the primaris special snowflake junk)
Deathwatch units are uniformly more expensive, and they benefit from the SIA rule. That's always been their shtick, and shockingly, it has consistently made them the WORST marine subfaction in competitive play. they have ALWAYS had close to the worst winrate, below even GK for the longest time. how the heck is giving a bunch of units that everyone was cool with 65% WR Iron Hands having and not even using in competitive lists, but somehow it'd be OP if 40something percent winrate DW uses it?
Sterling191 wrote: You are mistaken. The DW upgrade sprue has components for vehicles on it. Components that fit perfectly fine on all the Primaris vehicles I might add.
So we've gone from disingenuous to outright moving the goalposts.
You said shoulder pads. Now you're talking about icon/bits.
I Said "shoulder pads", with exaggerated quotations. You're the one deliberately moving the goalposts here.
But nice to know you have no actual argument as to why the Impulsor and Invictor shouldnt be accessible to Deathwatch players, and instead are just interested in having a semantic tantrum.
bullyboy wrote: he's not wrong....Deathwatch should practically be a singular kill team in a corvus, but alas, that is not what we have. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in.
This is not a viewpoint of a DW hater either, i have quite a sizeable force (over 60 vets, not counting VVs, bikers or terms).
Then we had Primaris added, with a Fortis kill team. As soon as the vanguard is available in separate kits, I expect we'll get a Vanguard one too.
If I could add a single kill team to my inquisition, I'd gladly do that. But until GW gives me rules (Say, the Ordo Xenos keyword on the fething deathwatch, militant arm of the ordo xenos?) that allow me to do that, I literally cannot and I will continue to run my DW as a battalion with the terminator captain and librarian from Space Hulk as the HQs.
I agree that it does feel kind of excessive. I'd prefer to run them just one kill team popping out of a teleportarium or dropping in in a drop pod.
bullyboy wrote: he's not wrong....Deathwatch should practically be a singular kill team in a corvus, but alas, that is not what we have. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in.
This is not a viewpoint of a DW hater either, i have quite a sizeable force (over 60 vets, not counting VVs, bikers or terms).
Then we had Primaris added, with a Fortis kill team. As soon as the vanguard is available in separate kits, I expect we'll get a Vanguard one too.
If I could add a single kill team to my inquisition, I'd gladly do that. But until GW gives me rules (Say, the Ordo Xenos keyword on the fething deathwatch, militant arm of the ordo xenos?) that allow me to do that, I literally cannot and I will continue to run my DW as a battalion with the terminator captain and librarian from Space Hulk as the HQs.
I agree that it does feel kind of excessive. I'd prefer to run them just one kill team popping out of a teleportarium or dropping in in a drop pod.
I honestly think the Imperial agents was just ahead of its time. It definitely has a place in 8th with random ad-hoc detachments or units that thematically make sense as allies, ideally with a way to balance out losing mono-faction bonuses as it's based around inquisitorial detachments.
bullyboy wrote: he's not wrong....Deathwatch should practically be a singular kill team in a corvus, but alas, that is not what we have. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in.
This is not a viewpoint of a DW hater either, i have quite a sizeable force (over 60 vets, not counting VVs, bikers or terms).
Then we had Primaris added, with a Fortis kill team. As soon as the vanguard is available in separate kits, I expect we'll get a Vanguard one too.
If I could add a single kill team to my inquisition, I'd gladly do that. But until GW gives me rules (Say, the Ordo Xenos keyword on the fething deathwatch, militant arm of the ordo xenos?) that allow me to do that, I literally cannot and I will continue to run my DW as a battalion with the terminator captain and librarian from Space Hulk as the HQs.
I agree that it does feel kind of excessive. I'd prefer to run them just one kill team popping out of a teleportarium or dropping in in a drop pod.
I honestly think the Imperial agents was just ahead of its time. It definitely has a place in 8th with random ad-hoc detachments or units that thematically make sense as allies, ideally with a way to balance out losing mono-faction bonuses as it's based around inquisitorial detachments.
This over and over. Same for 1x Grey Knight terminator squad, or legion of the dammed...
Heck, 1x Ork Kommandos unit in an imperial guard army like they use to be able too. Hardly any huge benefit out of it gaming wise but it would bring back narrative fun without gacking yourself.
The balance needs to be found where you can do cool, fluffy things without it harming your army so much it gets rolled over by anything, and not giving you a crazy power spike. I don't think any of the above would do that.
bullyboy wrote: he's not wrong....Deathwatch should practically be a singular kill team in a corvus, but alas, that is not what we have. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in.
This is not a viewpoint of a DW hater either, i have quite a sizeable force (over 60 vets, not counting VVs, bikers or terms).
Then we had Primaris added, with a Fortis kill team. As soon as the vanguard is available in separate kits, I expect we'll get a Vanguard one too.
If I could add a single kill team to my inquisition, I'd gladly do that. But until GW gives me rules (Say, the Ordo Xenos keyword on the fething deathwatch, militant arm of the ordo xenos?) that allow me to do that, I literally cannot and I will continue to run my DW as a battalion with the terminator captain and librarian from Space Hulk as the HQs.
I agree that it does feel kind of excessive. I'd prefer to run them just one kill team popping out of a teleportarium or dropping in in a drop pod.
I honestly think the Imperial agents was just ahead of its time. It definitely has a place in 8th with random ad-hoc detachments or units that thematically make sense as allies, ideally with a way to balance out losing mono-faction bonuses as it's based around inquisitorial detachments.
This over and over. Same for 1x Grey Knight terminator squad, or legion of the dammed...
Heck, 1x Ork Kommandos unit in an imperial guard army like they use to be able too. Hardly any huge benefit out of it gaming wise but it would bring back narrative fun without gacking yourself.
The balance needs to be found where you can do cool, fluffy things without it harming your army so much it gets rolled over by anything, and not giving you a crazy power spike. I don't think any of the above would do that.
The thing is, you don't need GW to do that, just have a conversation with your friends/opponents. People getting really stuck in the strict Matched Play element of the game sucks the life out of the setting sometimes. There is already too much bloat in Matched Play, it needs to be streamlined, not expanded. Instead, people should play more narrative style games using Matched Play points...would probably have a lot more fun. Then you could have that kommando unit in your Guard, or add a kill team to your army without losing all the bonuses. It wouldn't be about finding the best combo possible...leave that for competitive, but finding the storyline that drives the game.
Except for pickup games, which are extremely common, that doesn't work. In a game as expensive as this, you shouldn't have to talk to your opponent because GW is incapable of doing things correctly. If the game can't work as pickup, you can't get new people to play, simple as that.
bullyboy wrote: he's not wrong....Deathwatch should practically be a singular kill team in a corvus, but alas, that is not what we have. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in.
This is not a viewpoint of a DW hater either, i have quite a sizeable force (over 60 vets, not counting VVs, bikers or terms).
Then we had Primaris added, with a Fortis kill team. As soon as the vanguard is available in separate kits, I expect we'll get a Vanguard one too.
If I could add a single kill team to my inquisition, I'd gladly do that. But until GW gives me rules (Say, the Ordo Xenos keyword on the fething deathwatch, militant arm of the ordo xenos?) that allow me to do that, I literally cannot and I will continue to run my DW as a battalion with the terminator captain and librarian from Space Hulk as the HQs.
I agree that it does feel kind of excessive. I'd prefer to run them just one kill team popping out of a teleportarium or dropping in in a drop pod.
I honestly think the Imperial agents was just ahead of its time. It definitely has a place in 8th with random ad-hoc detachments or units that thematically make sense as allies, ideally with a way to balance out losing mono-faction bonuses as it's based around inquisitorial detachments.
This over and over. Same for 1x Grey Knight terminator squad, or legion of the dammed...
Heck, 1x Ork Kommandos unit in an imperial guard army like they use to be able too. Hardly any huge benefit out of it gaming wise but it would bring back narrative fun without gacking yourself.
The balance needs to be found where you can do cool, fluffy things without it harming your army so much it gets rolled over by anything, and not giving you a crazy power spike. I don't think any of the above would do that.
While true, I almost always just talk to my opponent when I play my crazy Imperial Oddballs list, and I've almost never not had them say "wow, that sounds sweet, let's do it."
My ordo xenos army has rolled into battle with:
-Deathwatch
-Admech (often using my own custom 8th ed rules for my 30k admech robots)
-Assassins
-Tempestus
-Rogue Traders
-Necromunda gangers as Acolytes
-Drukhari, often Court of the Archon characters
-Ork Freebootas
-Harlequins
-Eldar Rangers and Corsairs
-Knights
-Rebel Grots
-Genestealers (which I'll usually bring with a munitorum armored container and deploy them as if the inquisitor just ordered it airdropped onto the battlefield)
It's rare that I play them and don't have at least 5 factions on the table.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why are people discussing whether DW should be a full faction or not in a PA topic again?
Branching paths of discussion within a thread looking at future content for the faction.
Keep up, old chap.
There is that, not to mention he could just hit the Yellow Triangle and report the (Alleged) Off-Topic Post, rather then break yet another Irony Meter by commenting about off-topic posts by posting...an off-topic post?
GW has 'set the precedent (sort of) in terms of Deathwatch being an 'army' in terms of a game of 40K.
Relegating them to WD seems a bit unfair, but I think we'll have to wait and see what actually happens and what it ends up looking like.
I still think there's a chance they show up here - or whatever book the Necrons show up in.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except for pickup games, which are extremely common, that doesn't work. In a game as expensive as this, you shouldn't have to talk to your opponent because GW is incapable of doing things correctly. If the game can't work as pickup, you can't get new people to play, simple as that.
In a surprising turn of events, I fully agree with this. If it's at a tournament (I don't play competitive so this isn't me) it shouldn't require me to spend time discussing with my opponent being able to do something that in terms of the background of the game I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO, without an explanation. Yeah, a kommando unit isn't going to turn a guard army into a top tier army, and players looking to win the tournament won't use it, but guys and girls looking to just have some fun and add a bit of character to an army for the craic, it shouldn't require a negotiation.
I still stand by the the worse thing that happened to DW, GK and legion of the dammed I suppose, is that they were fleshed out into a full army. They should only be single squads attache to armies. That's just my opinion though and I know some will not agree, and after building an army of them, I sympathise, but I just don't like them being a full army.
I'm hoping, the WD rules for DW allow what I'm asking above...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except for pickup games, which are extremely common, that doesn't work. In a game as expensive as this, you shouldn't have to talk to your opponent because GW is incapable of doing things correctly. If the game can't work as pickup, you can't get new people to play, simple as that.
I mean, there hasn't really been a "pickup game" where I play in years. We set up games the week in advance through a forum system, we don't just turn up at a club with however many points of models and just hope there's someone else there looking to spend 4 hours playing the same style of game we want to play at the same points value.
This game system supports playing with a number of miniatures between 3 and 1,000. At this point it's a bit of a wide target to try and hit for Pickup play.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except for pickup games, which are extremely common, that doesn't work. In a game as expensive as this, you shouldn't have to talk to your opponent because GW is incapable of doing things correctly. If the game can't work as pickup, you can't get new people to play, simple as that.
But it does work just fine. Pickup play and tournaments can keep their strict rules and Matched Play points and survive just fine. The problem is, so many people have no clue that they don't have to play this way, it's kinda sad really.
This game works really well when you look at some of the narrative missions, make slight modifications etc. You just have to find like minded individuals to try it. Of course, doesn't work for a casual pickup game...but that's fine too. I think GW should keep the lists stricter for these occasions (ie stop the bloat) and allow narrative options to play as represented in some of the lore. That's why I get tired of people always saying this unit is garbage, no one ever plays that, etc. No, wrong....everyone does not always play "competitive" and those units work just fine in other games. There is a hybrid between narrative and matched play, where you still use points, but you relax some of the stricter aspects to enhance the narrative aspect of the game. It's just so hard for people to accept that this type of play is possible. It's really strange.
Except if those garbage units aren't fixed, they don't work even in a casual setting. Some armies have extremely better "casual" lists than other armies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except for pickup games, which are extremely common, that doesn't work. In a game as expensive as this, you shouldn't have to talk to your opponent because GW is incapable of doing things correctly. If the game can't work as pickup, you can't get new people to play, simple as that.
But it does work just fine. Pickup play and tournaments can keep their strict rules and Matched Play points and survive just fine. The problem is, so many people have no clue that they don't have to play this way, it's kinda sad really.
This game works really well when you look at some of the narrative missions, make slight modifications etc. You just have to find like minded individuals to try it. Of course, doesn't work for a casual pickup game...but that's fine too. I think GW should keep the lists stricter for these occasions (ie stop the bloat) and allow narrative options to play as represented in some of the lore. That's why I get tired of people always saying this unit is garbage, no one ever plays that, etc. No, wrong....everyone does not always play "competitive" and those units work just fine in other games. There is a hybrid between narrative and matched play, where you still use points, but you relax some of the stricter aspects to enhance the narrative aspect of the game. It's just so hard for people to accept that this type of play is possible. It's really strange.
bingo but apparently some players, the thought of spending 5 minutes talking about the game before is repugnant to them.
The principle is there shouldn't be a NEED for discussion about whether or not your opponent or you should use certain units. That's defending GWs incompetence by saying "do the balancing for them". That's as bad as the "forge the narrative" garbage they were pushing.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except if those garbage units aren't fixed, they don't work even in a casual setting. Some armies have extremely better "casual" lists than other armies.
That's not true at all, you just aren't playing casual, at least admit it. I used assault marines fairly recently, did quite well actually. Guess what, the other side had casual units too, the door can swing both ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The principle is there shouldn't be a NEED for discussion about whether or not your opponent or you should use certain units. That's defending GWs incompetence by saying "do the balancing for them". That's as bad as the "forge the narrative" garbage they were pushing.
Of course there should. There are too many possibilities in this system to have everything infinitely balanced. TO's should start limiting what they allow in tournaments list wise to create a better standard of balance. However, GW does not need to fix this across the board....TOs do.
it's not a "need"
it's a perfectly reasonable thing everyone should do before playing.
Now for a tournament, campaign, etc... the organizer sets specific rules/limitation and everyone agrees to play by the exact same guidelines.
A pick up game has a wide variation in expectations, so as previously stated spending 5 mins out of a 3-3.5hr game discussing the game is exactly how GW plays the game(& writes rules for).
If you're spending money on something with rules you dont like, it boggles the mind why you would waste so much time & money on it.
Racerguy180 wrote: it's not a "need"
it's a perfectly reasonable thing everyone should do before playing.
Now for a tournament, campaign, etc... the organizer sets specific rules/limitation and everyone agrees to play by the exact same guidelines.
A pick up game has a wide variation in expectations, so as previously stated spending 5 mins out of a 3-3.5hr game discussing the game is exactly how GW plays the game(& writes rules for).
If you're spending money on something with rules you dont like, it boggles the mind why you would waste so much time & money on it.
I think the idea is if everyone confirms to within the rules then its a nice to have rather than a must. I agree its always better to have a chat with your opponent beforehand, but homebred content or random cross army allies etc. Isn't a minor alteration to how a match pointed game is intended.
Deathwatch units are uniformly more expensive, and they benefit from the SIA rule. That's always been their shtick, and shockingly, it has consistently made them the WORST marine subfaction in competitive play. they have ALWAYS had close to the worst winrate, below even GK for the longest time. how the heck is giving a bunch of units that everyone was cool with 65% WR Iron Hands having and not even using in competitive lists, but somehow it'd be OP if 40something percent winrate DW uses it?
Not true. They've been one of the more useable marine subfactions for most of 8th when marines as a model type were pretty terrible otherwise. Storm Bolter/Shield marines are a pretty decent value right up until all marines got SIA without having to pay for it plus bonus rules on top of that (and bonus rules on top of that).
LunarSol wrote: Rules without having to pay for it plus bonus rules on top of that (and bonus rules on top of that).
Where 8th lost it's way. Paint unlocking rules that aren't accounted for in the points cost. With Pandora's box open now I can't see them going back either. I guess there's a chance that subfactions get points in 9th but that seems like a huge undertaking.
LunarSol wrote: Rules without having to pay for it plus bonus rules on top of that (and bonus rules on top of that).
Where 8th lost it's way. Paint unlocking rules that aren't accounted for in the points cost. With Pandora's box open now I can't see them going back either. I guess there's a chance that subfactions get points in 9th but that seems like a huge undertaking.
Subfactions don't need point costs, they need to be equal. Word Bearers as is are a joke, even if you added points to everyone else.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except if those garbage units aren't fixed, they don't work even in a casual setting. Some armies have extremely better "casual" lists than other armies.
That's not true at all, you just aren't playing casual, at least admit it. I used assault marines fairly recently, did quite well actually. Guess what, the other side had casual units too, the door can swing both ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The principle is there shouldn't be a NEED for discussion about whether or not your opponent or you should use certain units. That's defending GWs incompetence by saying "do the balancing for them". That's as bad as the "forge the narrative" garbage they were pushing.
Of course there should. There are too many possibilities in this system to have everything infinitely balanced. TO's should start limiting what they allow in tournaments list wise to create a better standard of balance. However, GW does not need to fix this across the board....TOs do.
Oh look, the "too hard to balance" argument. They aren't even trying, dude. Also your dumb anecdotes don't help. I've seen casual games where Assault Marines did bad as they do in more competitive games. What's your point? You don't have one.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Except for pickup games, which are extremely common, that doesn't work. In a game as expensive as this, you shouldn't have to talk to your opponent because GW is incapable of doing things correctly. If the game can't work as pickup, you can't get new people to play, simple as that.
But it does work just fine. Pickup play and tournaments can keep their strict rules and Matched Play points and survive just fine. The problem is, so many people have no clue that they don't have to play this way, it's kinda sad really.
This game works really well when you look at some of the narrative missions, make slight modifications etc. You just have to find like minded individuals to try it. Of course, doesn't work for a casual pickup game...but that's fine too. I think GW should keep the lists stricter for these occasions (ie stop the bloat) and allow narrative options to play as represented in some of the lore. That's why I get tired of people always saying this unit is garbage, no one ever plays that, etc. No, wrong....everyone does not always play "competitive" and those units work just fine in other games. There is a hybrid between narrative and matched play, where you still use points, but you relax some of the stricter aspects to enhance the narrative aspect of the game. It's just so hard for people to accept that this type of play is possible. It's really strange.
Oh look you're telling us to do GWs job for them. I'm not shocked you're doing this based on the constant white knight stuff you post.
hahaha, such a crock of crap. I bitch about GW as much as anyone, but there are some that make it their full time job.
8th is as good as it's been in a long while for 40k, the bloat has just been a little excessive after SM 2.0 hit.
Not sure why you are against anecdotes, that is the player's experience. We're not trying to balance a system for competitive play, my whole point. people like yourself just can't fathom the concept. You always complain and moan about marines needing to be consolidated, great...do it for competitive play, but there is absolutely zero reason why narrative play needs your crappy idea of what this game should be.
Honestly, I had you on mute for so long, probably time to go back in the box as your contribution is as toxic as ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The principle is there shouldn't be a NEED for discussion about whether or not your opponent or you should use certain units. That's defending GWs incompetence by saying "do the balancing for them". That's as bad as the "forge the narrative" garbage they were pushing.
I mean, even in far more balanced games you generally have units available to some factions and not others. I would assume if I wanted to bring a unit from another army in a perfectly balanced wargame to represent mercenaries or some other unit that exists in narrative but not on the table, I'd have to talk to my opponent as well...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The principle is there shouldn't be a NEED for discussion about whether or not your opponent or you should use certain units. That's defending GWs incompetence by saying "do the balancing for them". That's as bad as the "forge the narrative" garbage they were pushing.
I mean, even in far more balanced games you generally have units available to some factions and not others. I would assume if I wanted to bring a unit from another army in a perfectly balanced wargame to represent mercenaries or some other unit that exists in narrative but not on the table, I'd have to talk to my opponent as well...
I would actuly really like to see GW Expand under there attempt to to push narrative, there is a fair few lists that i could not see Balanced unless GW was willing to put in the effort (which sadly i do not think they are for a lot of things) That would work under narrative giving power to players discussion, and to do that kind of play.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The principle is there shouldn't be a NEED for discussion about whether or not your opponent or you should use certain units. That's defending GWs incompetence by saying "do the balancing for them". That's as bad as the "forge the narrative" garbage they were pushing.
I mean, even in far more balanced games you generally have units available to some factions and not others. I would assume if I wanted to bring a unit from another army in a perfectly balanced wargame to represent mercenaries or some other unit that exists in narrative but not on the table, I'd have to talk to my opponent as well...
I would actuly really like to see GW Expand under there attempt to to push narrative, there is a fair few lists that i could not see Balanced unless GW was willing to put in the effort (which sadly i do not think they are for a lot of things) That would work under narrative giving power to players discussion, and to do that kind of play.
Honestly, and I know this always gets me a lot of gak, I have had a far easier time balancing the kind of ridiculous, throw everything in there and play towards a custom goal type lists against each other than I have games where both me and my opponent try to bring the best most synergistic list possible and play a competitive tournament scenario. I think it's just the relative deadliness between a competitively optimized list and a list that's just a mix of everything.
When I play my competitive Drukhari list, absolutely everything in the list attacks at full power turn 1. All my shooting units are within rapid range, all my assault units can advance and charge and get in turn 1 and if not turn 2, all my flyers are just immediately within range, and when I play my goofy eldar storm guardian list I've got much less that's up and murdering immediately. It just tends to result in games that are less decided by who gets first turn, less decided by list matchup, and are more fun for both parties.
This update brings the Deathwatch in line with the rest of their Adeptus Astartes brothers. They gain the Angels of Death suite of abilities, including Shock Assault, Bolter Discipline and Combat Doctrines.
Gaining Combat Doctrines is a big win for the Deathwatch – especially with the additional AP that each of the doctrines gives to various weapons. Coupled with special issue ammunition, this tactical flexibility makes your Deathwatch fearsome opponents indeed. This is only enhanced by their new Stratagems, which are the same ones gained by other Chapters, putting the Deathwatch on par with the rest of their brethren.
Deathwatch already have Shock Assault and Bolter Discipline. No mention of re-writing the latter to function with SIA,. Ditto with Doctrines, given the way they're explicitly written not to stack with other AP modifiers.
And literally everything else showcased is a copy-paste from Marines 2.0.
Sterling191 wrote: Deathwatch already have Shock Assault and Bolter Discipline. No mention of re-writing the latter to function with SIA,. Ditto with Doctrines, given the way they're explicitly written not to stack with other AP modifiers.
And literally everything else showcased is a copy-paste from Marines 2.0.
Not encouraging.
GW not understanding their own rules? Say it ain't so!
Also I like they only previewed Strats we knew we would be getting.
Lemondish wrote: Definitely a bit disappointing, but I'll take this over nothing.
Even if we've had half of it for months now anyway.
I guess SIA really only exists for hellfire and range bonuses now?
Well the new AP mechanic killed the point of Vengeance as it'll hardly fire twice, and they stopped a potential niche of Dragonfire by not adding Ignore Cover in addition to the +1 to hit mechanic. Dragonfire as shown is an easy fix but there isn't a lot you can do to Vengeance without it overtaking the other Ammo types. When I was actively trying to homebrew rules that part always had me stuck.
It is an absolute zero effort update, pretty crappy actually. Doesn't look like they got a super doctrine (OK with that) or their own litany (not cool). It's basically someone handing the reigns to an intern and saying "just copy/paste relevant marine stuff to deathwatch, and grab me a coffee, cheers".
I'm sure I'll still use it as they will benefit from some of the strats, and there might now be a use for DW chaplains, but still a 1/10 for effort.
No custom litany is particularly lame, as is no super doctrine / psychic lore (access to Telesthesia Discipline even?), purely from a consistency standpoint, but maybe there's some blah-blah fluff excuse like they're all from different chapters and whatever. Does seem like an extremely low-effort update. Doing minimal work to tie in some Inquisition stuff would have been cool, tho I suppose there aren't too many dedicated models to sell in that line.
I will note in passing that DW will now have ~37 strats? That seems like a thing? I'm getting back into Daemons and my Tzeentch bois have 10, 1 of which does nothing thanks to FAQ and 2 of which are for summoning.
Boss Salvage wrote: No custom litany is particularly lame, as is no super doctrine / psychic lore (access to Telesthesia Discipline even?), purely from a consistency standpoint, but maybe there's some blah-blah fluff excuse like they're all from different chapters and whatever. Does seem like an extremely low-effort update. Doing minimal work to tie in some Inquisition stuff would have been cool, tho I suppose there aren't too many dedicated models to sell in that line.
I will note in passing that DW will now have ~37 strats? That seems like a thing? I'm getting back into Daemons and my Tzeentch bois have 10, 1 of which does nothing thanks to FAQ and 2 of which are for summoning.
Yeah, at this point ultramarines have 57 available stratagems. bloat for the bloat god! Wooooooooo....
Given how....inspired this white dwarf update is looking for DW, I can't wait for what Harlequins get. Are they gonna just randomly copy/paste stratagems from the drukhari, craftworld and ynnari lists and change the names? is it going to just be a name generator and a custom masque generator with traits from the existing masques?
bullyboy wrote: Not to mention the Duty Eternal Strat is the pre-FAQ one. It's only -1D now, not half.
Well, Space Wolves also still have the old one (and old Doctrines) until (presumably) there is a Saga of the Beast FAQ.
Man oh man am I such a huge fan of these great bespoke rules. Imagine now terrible it would be if gw went to some kind of awful system where multiple armies had access to the same units and those units had identical rules or point costs or abilities.
They really can't abuse it but its likely to change. GW is in a sloppy gap of trying to be consistent, but still hard coding values instead of passing parameters.
I really hope if they do go the White Dward rule as stated, that they at least give you a free pdf update after the white dwarf is discontinued. Having rules in White Dwarf sucks.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I really hope if they do go the White Dward rule as stated, that they at least give you a free pdf update after the white dwarf is discontinued. Having rules in White Dwarf sucks.
Curious if Necrons get anything out of Pariah. Stern and her clown buddy aren't enough to fill a whole book and with the other two remaining armies shoved into White Dwarf, I can't help but get the feeling GW intends to reveal something big for Necrons when they continue their online previews.
May not happen with how Psychic Awakening is perceived as a disappointment by many, but I like the idea of Necrons getting some new models. It's been a while.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I really hope if they do go the White Dward rule as stated, that they at least give you a free pdf update after the white dwarf is discontinued. Having rules in White Dwarf sucks.
Depending on how long GW wants Psychic Awakening to be relevant, they can just reprint the Death Watch and Harlequin rules in this year's Chapter Approved. Free filler FTW!
bullyboy wrote: It is an absolute zero effort update, pretty crappy actually. Doesn't look like they got a super doctrine (OK with that) or their own litany (not cool). It's basically someone handing the reigns to an intern and saying "just copy/paste relevant marine stuff to deathwatch, and grab me a coffee, cheers".
I'm sure I'll still use it as they will benefit from some of the strats, and there might now be a use for DW chaplains, but still a 1/10 for effort.
Its not even a 1/10. The bare minimum they needed to do was bring Deathwatch up to par with 2.0 Marines, yet they managed to completely feth that up.
Luke_Prowler wrote: Inconsistant and lazy rules writing is perfectly fine for casual play, doncha know
Depends what you're looking for. It lacks any new feel to the force, very uninspiring. You know who do benefit from this? Competitive types, not narrative. So your point was basically wrong, but lazy writing is still lazy writing.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I really hope if they do go the White Dward rule as stated, that they at least give you a free pdf update after the white dwarf is discontinued. Having rules in White Dwarf sucks.
You must be new here.
I'm not. It happend to Sisters and that's how I know how much it sucks.
LunarSol wrote: I'd love to see DW/GK/Sisters/Inquisition turned into a single Codex.
Why? Especially, why Sisters, when in the fluff they have always been a standalone army, that is much MUCH more related to the Ecclersiarchy than the Inquisition?
Why? Especially, why Sisters, when in the fluff they have always been a standalone army, that is much MUCH more related to the Ecclersiarchy than the Inquisition?
Theyre the Orders Militant of the three major Inquisition branches.
Sterling191 wrote: Theyre the Orders Militant of the three major Inquisition branches.
For one whole edition lol. They started as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. After Inquisitor the 54mm game, they added some flimsy justification for them being the Order Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. They basically never used that fluff afterward. Nothing in the current codex speaks about this. So...
Sterling191 wrote: Theyre the Orders Militant of the three major Inquisition branches.
For one whole edition lol.
They started as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. After Inquisitor the 54mm game, they added some flimsy justification for them being the Order Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. They basically never used that fluff afterward. Nothing in the current codex speaks about this.
So...
yeah GW's been explictly moving AWAY from the "flunkies of the inqusition" since 6th edition or so
Sterling191 wrote: Theyre the Orders Militant of the three major Inquisition branches.
For one whole edition lol.
They started as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. After Inquisitor the 54mm game, they added some flimsy justification for them being the Order Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. They basically never used that fluff afterward. Nothing in the current codex speaks about this.
So...
yeah GW's been explictly moving AWAY from the "flunkies of the inqusition" since 6th edition or so
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
Which is FINE for fluff, but in terms of rules it's bloat of codices.
So?
Just merge the Xenos ones instead.
yeah I mean Eldar and dark eldar aren't that differant, I mean, they're both elves! that's as much in common as grey knights and sisters of battle have.
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