I have finally taken the plunge and decided to start this wonderful hobby. I have ordered a paint set and 3 Space Marine Intercessors to get me started.
I've been a long time follower of the books and online bat reps and have settled on Space Marines with the intention of either making a Minotaur chapter or my own unique successor chapter.
I am really confused with the changes to space marines and don't really know where to start, as the last time i followed it was all scouts, tactical squads, assault marines and terminators. Now it appears to be Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators, Reivers and Primaris marines. i am awaiting a Codex but would really appreciate if someone could bring em up to speed with what exactly has changed (are these just new names for the same units??).
My hope is to try and find a local group that would be interested in running a path to glory type of campaign to allow me to gradually build and model my army.
Additionally any advice on how best to cheaply assemble an army (which box sets are most cost efficient etc.) and also if there are cheaper paint and brush alternatives than the citadel ones.
The Minotaurs are a really cool Chapter, imo. They are outfitted with the latest and greatest tech so would make extensive use of the most advanced units and technologies the Astartes have.
They don't have a unique chapter rule so it's up to you to decide what Chapter Tactic to use. This isn't much different from a custom chapter in all truths.
When Starting an Astartes army you need to focus on a few units and then build up from there.
For a main HQ you can chose Moloc or build a custom Chapter Master/Captain. You'll need another eventually, Librarians, Lieutenants and Chaplains are all great. Even a Techmarine has unique uses so none are really a waste.
Intercessors are fantastic troops, as are Infiltrators. I typically run 20 Intercessors and 10 Infiltrators. You can run more Intercessors if you desire, they are a solid choice.
Aggressors are very strong elite infantry. Think of them as Terminators that can't teleport but have a lot more shooting. A squad of 5 is great inside a Repulsor.
From there build the army as you see fit. Repulsors are good, as are Invictors. Eliminators are great units too.
Forgeworld also have further good options such as Contemptors.
Basically start by focusing on Infantry and commanders, and then start to expand into more specialised or elite units. I would focus mostly on Primaris.
The Dark Imperium/Know no Fear boxsets are great, especially if you can split them.
The Start Collecting Primaris is a good expansion of an army once you've built up core units. It has a full squad of Infiltrators and some Eliminators - those are the best units in that particular box.
I have finally taken the plunge and decided to start this wonderful hobby. I have ordered a paint set and 3 Space Marine Intercessors to get me started.
I've been a long time follower of the books and online bat reps and have settled on Space Marines with the intention of either making a Minotaur chapter or my own unique successor chapter.
I am really confused with the changes to space marines and don't really know where to start, as the last time i followed it was all scouts, tactical squads, assault marines and terminators. Now it appears to be Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators, Reivers and Primaris marines. i am awaiting a Codex but would really appreciate if someone could bring em up to speed with what exactly has changed (are these just new names for the same units??).
My hope is to try and find a local group that would be interested in running a path to glory type of campaign to allow me to gradually build and model my army.
Additionally any advice on how best to cheaply assemble an army (which box sets are most cost efficient etc.) and also if there are cheaper paint and brush alternatives than the citadel ones.
Cheers in advance guys!
Hello and welcome! I'll break up my response in to several sections here
1) Primaris Marines are new with the latest 8th edition of the game. It is community speculation that they are intended as "replacements" for the older version of space marines, which are still out there and are for the most part far newer than most factions in the game in terms of their kits. Regardless, Primaris Marines are generally more straightforward to play, with more of a stationary gunline gameplay style, and present fewer potential "Trap" options to people assembling their miniatures. Gone are the days where an excited, fresh-faced new player would come in and have a squad of space marines glued with all the melee weapons in the box that were intended for the sergeant only, only to have to tell him that his 40$ purchase was basically useless in-game.
Critically, they are NOT just new names for the same units. There are some units that are sort of similar to existing options (Intercessors to the old Tactical Marines, for example) but they've changed the structure such that now, most primaris squads have the same weaponry on every member and a choice of what weaponry the whole squad will have. With old tacticals, every member of the squad had boltguns except for 1 heavy weeapon and 1 special weapon you chose. Now, there are no specials and heavies, but 3 different styles of boltgun (Standard, Sniper, and Assault) that you choose for your intercessor squad.
Additionally, many heavier units are eqipped with a mixture of anti-tank and anti-infantry weaponry, which makes it fairly difficult to build a primaris list that is extremely poor at any particular job. This is speculated to be a choice made to make it easier to construct a list for new players.
For a lot of 8th edition, the new primaris were not particularly great, but as of right now they are top tier competitive units in many cases. Intercessors, Aggressors, Incursors/infiltrators, eliminators, and Invictus Warsuits are all very good units you could take to a tournament.
2) The best way to build an army on the cheap is through secondhand purchases and boxed sets. Secondhand, it is easy to find the starter sets such as Dark Imperium and Know No Fear, which contain heavy discounts but miniatures from two factions, purchased and put on sale separately by ebay sellers. I would begin my Primaris army with a purchase of an ebay set of Dark Imperium, which gets you 2 troops units, 3 HQ units, 1 elite unit and 1 fast attack unit right out of the gate. There are also "Start collecting" sets, which offer a 30-40% discount on buying the squads individually - there's one for the primaris vanguard units, and 1 for the basic primaris units (branded as Space Wolves, but they're identical to the ones any chapter would get). Finally, "easy to build" models are mono-pose, but cheaper and the same quality as the full kits. You can get an Easy to Build redemptor dreadnought for 40$ direct from GW, or the full kit for 60$ - the easy to build is mono-pose, but actually comes all set with the optimal weapon loadout for the dreadnought, so if you don't mind the static pose it's much cheaper.
And of course, there's always buying used miniatures off ebay, which is a total mixed bag. I usually caution against this, or at least tell players to always keep the discounts from box sets in their minds: Ebay is a website designed to make you feel like you've found a REALLY GREAT deal, even when you've found...well, not so great a deal after shipping costs.
3) I would recommend any brush made from Kolinsky Red Sable for your detail work (I use the Army Painter brand, but pretty much any brand works). Try to keep it under, I don't know, 6 euro? A euro is pretty close to a dollar right? That's going to be identical to the 30$ GW detail brush. Also, save yourself a lot of brush replacements by getting a super-cheap synthetic hair brush, and use that brush exclusively for all washes you put on. That 2-3 euro brush will save you replacing your nice 6-7 euro brush 3-4 times most likely. The other best money-saving tip I've got for painting is to use a wet palette, which is just a fancy way of saying "A plate, with some kind of absorbent material like a wet paper towel on it, and then a piece of parchment paper you can get from the grocery store on top of that". This palette will keep your paints wet for about 12 hours, allowing you to get those sweet sweet thin coats, and keep you from sitting there with your pots open and drying out while you paint and get mad that it goes on chunky and thick.
i'm going for a spartan theme space marine force and heard that minotaurs were most applicable.
One final question, are space marines suited to a melee heavy assault force?
If so how does that do in competitive?
Frankly, no, they aren't.
One of the problems with the new primaris line is that it doesn't really have that many dedicated assault units. And many of the assault units that remain from the classic marines are currently quite underpowered (old Assault Squads, for example).
If you're going for a dedicated assault army, and you want space marines, your best bet is to use Blood Angels rules (You can still call them Minotaurs of course, just use the Blood Angels codex) because that gets you several good dedicated assault units like Sanguinary Guard, as well as several characters and abilities that can really help assault.
Depending on what kind of spartans your'e after (Historical, locked-shields sort of legion or ultra-badass 300 action heroes) the Adeptus Custodes might be a good option to consider. Their signature weapon is a spear, and they're currently the single most elite army in the entire game. Also, incidentally, the financially cheapest army in the entire game. There is a 60$ biker kit that you have the option of running as 3 characters, which can be almost 600 points.
Agreed, Marines are primarily a firepower army. Their melee units are best used to finish off fights or kept is reserve in case enemy melee units threaten your lines.
If you really want melee Marines, Blood Angels (with Snaguinary Guard and Death Company) or Space Wolves (Wulfen) are the primary choices.
The good thing about creating your own Chapter is you can always play them as something else. Build your minotaurs and play them as codex chapter. But you can also buy a few units of Sanguinary Guard and a couple of Blood Angels Characters and play them as Blood Angels whenevr you feel like it. Or you could buy a few packs of Wulfen and play them as Space Wolves the next week (slightly harder as Space Wolves don't use classic Marine squads like Tactical Marines but do use all the new Primaris minis so it can be done).
I would suggest starting with a Battalion and aiming for 1000 points. This gives you an army you can paint in a reasonable time but gives you a viable force for small games. A Battalion consists of a minimum of 2 HQs and 3 Troops which is pretty easy to collect. Then you can add whatever support elements you need to bulk it out a bit.
First and foremost, USE EBAY or that odd Facebook store. Often you'll fine entire painted armies for sale if you really wanna go that route. Or youll find cheaper then store/online prices for models (especially if your able to bid lower). I always either send a message or make an offer thats cheaper then what the current bid/buyout price is and almost always get it 5-10$ cheaper then they have it listed.
Secondly - LGS (Logcal Game Stores) while i agree you should buy a lot of stuff from them sometimes they market things 5-10-20 dollars higher then other places so i tend to only buy my supplies/paints from them.
Thirdly? - At this point with the Corona virus happening it's going to be hard to get ANY models/paints/supplies as most places are closed till mid-end May and if you buy online you won't get most things till June.
Fourthly - A good starter kit for painting etc is go on Amazon and look up like a gundam model kit - it has all the basic supplies for like 10-15$. Paint brushes and things like that you'll either have to order and wait or maybe find some cheap ones at a Target or Walmart or maybe a Local Arts place?
Fithly - The Number 1 rule of building an army is "Rule of Cool" YOU are going to be the one assembling/gluing/painting etc you don't want to spend all that time on something that you dislike how it looks. If it looks cool paint it. If your really invested make a 2000 point army then have like an extra 500-1000 points of extra stuff you can swap in and out.
Finally - If your new to painting your gonna suck and your models might not look the greatest! Awesome mine are just now getting to a point where i'm VERY happy with them, but even seasoned painters will tell you their not happy with some of their best works. IT's a skill that takes time and patience and rushing it is the worst mistake you can make. That being said there are THOUSANDS of tutorials on Youtube that i reccomend you look at for every step and get an idea of what to do/how to do it.
That's not for someone totally new to the hobby to do.
They'll end up overwhelmed and shelve it. Happens all the time.
Start small, unit by unit or with a starter set you can build up yourself. That's the correct advice.
Also they shouldn't just buy some grey sprues from ebay. Best to start with a boxset from a retailer. The art that comes with them, the books, lore, etc are all there to invest someone in the hobby.
Honestly I'm baffled when someone recommend a method into the hobby that bypasses most of the hobby.
Ishagu wrote: They can do it, and some chapters are better at it for sure.
Generally I would say that Astartes are best as a mid table shooting army with some close combat elements.
Don't commit your army to a single purpose, especially when starting out.
Cheers for the answers, i'm intending on trying to create a balanced enough army but that has some scope to included assault variants so i can model a real spartan feel to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks for all the input guys.
Really impressed with how helpful the community has been so far.
Regarding the pre-painted army appreciate the input but the main draw for me is creating and modelling my own chapter.
Final stupid question!
There is a gaming store in my town (The Gathering, Limerick). Is this the best way to start learning the rules and playing the game or is there other forums etc.
Ishagu wrote: They can do it, and some chapters are better at it for sure.
Generally I would say that Astartes are best as a mid table shooting army with some close combat elements.
Don't commit your army to a single purpose, especially when starting out.
Cheers for the answers, i'm intending on trying to create a balanced enough army but that has some scope to included assault variants so i can model a real spartan feel to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks for all the input guys.
Really impressed with how helpful the community has been so far.
Regarding the pre-painted army appreciate the input but the main draw for me is creating and modelling my own chapter.
Final stupid question!
There is a gaming store in my town (The Gathering, Limerick). Is this the best way to start learning the rules and playing the game or is there other forums etc.
I mean, It's an in person game. Definitely head down there and check out the local gaming scene!
Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.
There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.
The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc
3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.
There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:
1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.
2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.
The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.
The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.
Ishagu wrote: It's definitely best to learn face to face.
Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.
There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.
The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc
No, just NO. I've never seen or heard of that Golden Rule it is BAD. You only learn by doing and mistakes are the greatest teachers. IVE NEVER HEARD THIS RULE EVER. My first game i went to a LGS even for Free Play and told the people i was facing that it was my first few games and omg they were so freaking helpful they took me step by step by i still lost 2 of those 3 games. I learned from my MISTAKES in those games and won the third 1 with little to no help. Letting someone win teaches them bad habits right form the get go. And no buying a pre-painted army isn't the worst thing. I got one for like 400 bucks and it was my first "intro army". I looked up videos on how to play/what to do and took that army out. It got me MORE interested in wanting to make my own army/list and paint it myself. I've since learned how to paint that scheme and added a few units of my own to it. Meanwhile i've made an Ad-Mech army and am im the process of painting an Imperial Fists army.
The Newman wrote: 3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.
There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:
1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.
2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.
The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.
The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.
I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.
One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.
Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.
I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint
Ishagu wrote: It's definitely best to learn face to face.
Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.
There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.
The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc
No, just NO. I've never seen or heard of that Golden Rule it is BAD. You only learn by doing and mistakes are the greatest teachers. IVE NEVER HEARD THIS RULE EVER. My first game i went to a LGS even for Free Play and told the people i was facing that it was my first few games and omg they were so freaking helpful they took me step by step by i still lost 2 of those 3 games. I learned from my MISTAKES in those games and won the third 1 with little to no help. Letting someone win teaches them bad habits right form the get go. And no buying a pre-painted army isn't the worst thing. I got one for like 400 bucks and it was my first "intro army". I looked up videos on how to play/what to do and took that army out. It got me MORE interested in wanting to make my own army/list and paint it myself. I've since learned how to paint that scheme and added a few units of my own to it. Meanwhile i've made an Ad-Mech army and am im the process of painting an Imperial Fists army.
You've never heard of a friendly learning game designed to hook players into the hobby?
You're not teaching them bad habits, you're simply steering the tutorial game. Lol what bad habit are you teaching?
No that's pretty stupid. You don't need to learn from failure all the time.
It's a friendly tutorial game to teach you the basics. Winning does not matter. Does your low self esteem prevent you from allowing your opponent a victory?
Not at all. It's just not best to get their hopes up. It'smore honest to show them what they will likely be facing on a regular basis. Kid gloves help no one.
For example, I'd tripoint an entire new player's army to show them what's coming in the future. So they aren't surprised by it.
Re paints and brushes; I use Army Painter brushes, Wal-Mart primer and pound-shop paint. All are a lot cheaper than Citadel. Lots of people will tell you that you can't use craft paints on miniatures. Check p1 of my plog and make your own mind up.
The best way to stretch value of your boxes is to use them as two or more different things. A box of Cadians, for example, can be any of Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cultists or Renegades & Heretics. The opportunities to do that with Space Marines are more limited aside from all the many millions of different Chapter Tactics you can apply to them.
Ishagu wrote: It's definitely best to learn face to face.
Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.
There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.
The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc
I don't think I heard a worse advice to start anything ever. How is someone suppose to learn anything, if they are let to win. Worse, if they are fooled in to thinking they are winning, they may get a wrong idea about how things really are, and then reality can teach them a much harsher lesson. Better to lose 20-30 games when starting with a start collecting box, then buy a 2000pts army and suddenly face the reality of real meta game, and potential wasted hundrads of dollars.
I don't think he's lying. He just has a VERY narrow view of how the 40K community is supposed to operate. His advice here might operate in his little bubble, but fails for the general case.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think he's lying. He just has a VERY narrow view of how the 40K community is supposed to operate. His advice here might operate in his little bubble, but fails for the general case.
He also has a "narrow view" on so many things concerning 40k that I'm starting to have doubts as of recent
It's fairly well proven that any form of training or introduction works best when it ends on a positive association/event. That's why in animal training even if things go wrong, a good trainer will aim to end a segment with a positive interaction and outcome for the animal.
It makes them more likely to be responsive the next time; rather than leaving a negative association.
In wargaming this can mistakenly get taken to be "Let the newbie win". It's a very easy way to "end" the game on a positive interaction for them. By and large it also does work, most people LIKE to win and very early on won't grasp at the win being more given to them than being hard earned through skills that they do not yet have.
However its not the only approach and not the only way to "end" things on a positive connection. It is simply the easier approach for the vast majority, remembering that many people are not teachers so they won't always have multiple teaching tools to hand to use when introducing and teaching someone new.
In the end its not the only approach. I think his point about "finding gamers of quality" is more correctly translated as "attempting to find groups where newbie bashing isn't a thing". Which is a valid concern for some, but its also generally quite rare and even when it does happen its often more out of ignorance (they don't realise that they keep beating the newbies); or a single or small fragment of the population, not the entire group.
Again positive interactions do NOT mean you have to win; its just a much easier and simpler connection that works most times. There are many other ways to make an experience positive and reinforcing so that new people want to come back and want to continue. Furthermore teaching a new thing goes through many phases. Sometimes a person just isn't yet ready to be receptive to critical analysis of their game. Especially at the start where such detailed assessment can often fly over their heads because they are still getting to grips with the mechanics of play.
It's entirely possible he is trolling this site for lulz.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: It's fairly well proven that any form of training or introduction works best when it ends on a positive association/event. That's why in animal training even if things go wrong, a good trainer will aim to end a segment with a positive interaction and outcome for the animal.
It makes them more likely to be responsive the next time; rather than leaving a negative association.
In wargaming this can mistakenly get taken to be "Let the newbie win". It's a very easy way to "end" the game on a positive interaction for them. By and large it also does work, most people LIKE to win and very early on won't grasp at the win being more given to them than being hard earned through skills that they do not yet have.
However its not the only approach and not the only way to "end" things on a positive connection. It is simply the easier approach for the vast majority, remembering that many people are not teachers so they won't always have multiple teaching tools to hand to use when introducing and teaching someone new.
In the end its not the only approach. I think his point about "finding gamers of quality" is more correctly translated as "attempting to find groups where newbie bashing isn't a thing". Which is a valid concern for some, but its also generally quite rare and even when it does happen its often more out of ignorance (they don't realise that they keep beating the newbies); or a single or small fragment of the population, not the entire group.
Unfortunately, a lot of newbies purchase models with terrible rules because they don't know any better. They then get bashed because GW can't balance the rules for models, not because more experienced gamers are mean.
Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.
The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.
I'm not saying you let them win forever. Am I living in some alternative universe where people don't have common sense? Or do people lack social experience? Who knows...
If you are telling someone how to play the game because they don't yet understand the most basic rules and tactics, and then you beat them in that same game you look like an arse lol. You instructed them to lose.
The tutorial game is not a game to decide a winner. It's a tutorial to teach basic rules. Tactics and proper games come later.
Maybe this is why some of you are lacking the most basic understanding of what the social contract and the gentleman's agreements should entail around this hobby. A few people on the forum understand what I'm trying to say - it would seem that others would instead prefer to stomp the newbie who's never played a game before to show him what the game is about? Clearly if that's your mentality you've missed the point of 40k
IMO, the most important thing when teaching a new player is to let them make their own decisions. Teach them the basics and then at pretty much every point from there on you should be asking them "what do you want to do here?" That engages them with the game much more than any other method I've seen and gets a dialogue going which allows you to gauge how well they've picked up the basic concepts. Letting them win is fine, but you need to be careful not to patronise them - many people are fine with losing their first games.
To the OP, I'd say get down to the local game store as soon as you can (which may be a while in the current situation!) and in the meantime you can't go far wrong with a few squads of Intercessors as the basis of a new Space Marine army, Regardless of which direction you want to go with your army that's always going to be a solid start.
The Newman wrote: 3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.
There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:
1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.
2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.
The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.
The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.
I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.
One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.
Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.
I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint
Not like I suggested using $1 brushes or ...ok, so I did suggest $1 paint might pass muster with enough practice. And a $1 bottle of Americana did the primary coat on 9000 points of Marines with a quarter of the bottle to spare, so when you say the $3 bottle of Vallejo will cover 2000 points I believe it.
I shudder to think what your opinion would be of my choice of primer.
Ishagu wrote: No that's pretty stupid. You don't need to learn from failure all the time.
It's a friendly tutorial game to teach you the basics. Winning does not matter. Does your low self esteem prevent you from allowing your opponent a victory?
Wel that only works if you tell the other person you are leting them win. And by that time the learning curve becomes really strange from my point of view, because what am I learning as a new player, if you are letting me win ?
now, not letting a new player start with a complicated army, or playing against them with a list that, if not countered correctly, removes the ability to do anything significant by the opponent turn 2, are good things to do when starting. But letting someone win, is stupid. I have seen people drop out of school,because of them winning . For first 3 months they were winning based on genetics, and when others trained they were just winning by being bigger. And then when the quarterly exams came they got choked out, they didn't knew how to counter moves with anything besides raw power and one person even got seriously injured, because while we train in age groups, the fight cathegories were age and weight. And when they were faced with people who were for 1+plus at the school and had similar weight they got destroyed, as in litteraly the guy had his left collar bone broken.
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Slipspace wrote: IMO, the most important thing when teaching a new player is to let them make their own decisions. Teach them the basics and then at pretty much every point from there on you should be asking them "what do you want to do here?" That engages them with the game much more than any other method I've seen and gets a dialogue going which allows you to gauge how well they've picked up the basic concepts. Letting them win is fine, but you need to be careful not to patronise them - many people are fine with losing their first games.
To the OP, I'd say get down to the local game store as soon as you can (which may be a while in the current situation!) and in the meantime you can't go far wrong with a few squads of Intercessors as the basis of a new Space Marine army, Regardless of which direction you want to go with your army that's always going to be a solid start.
Okey, and now the new person tells you, that they want to play harlequins, or some other bad army. They buy it, training wheels are off, and they get destroyed even by casual lists over and over again. They get less and less happy, and the fun is not there. And now they options are play an army that isn't very bad, quit the game after spending a ton of money on it or stay and hope GW fixs stuff.
Removed - BrookM
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Ishagu wrote: Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.
The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.
On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.
Slipspace wrote: IMO, the most important thing when teaching a new player is to let them make their own decisions. Teach them the basics and then at pretty much every point from there on you should be asking them "what do you want to do here?" That engages them with the game much more than any other method I've seen and gets a dialogue going which allows you to gauge how well they've picked up the basic concepts. Letting them win is fine, but you need to be careful not to patronise them - many people are fine with losing their first games.
To the OP, I'd say get down to the local game store as soon as you can (which may be a while in the current situation!) and in the meantime you can't go far wrong with a few squads of Intercessors as the basis of a new Space Marine army, Regardless of which direction you want to go with your army that's always going to be a solid start.
Okey, and now the new person tells you, that they want to play harlequins, or some other bad army. They buy it, training wheels are off, and they get destroyed even by casual lists over and over again. They get less and less happy, and the fun is not there. And now they options are play an army that isn't very bad, quit the game after spending a ton of money on it or stay and hope GW fixs stuff.
Removed - BrookM
We're talking about game number 1 here, dude. Like, "I have no idea how this game works but it looks cool" sort of thing. Army selection doesn't even enter into it at this point, which is why I'm saying the most important thing is to engage them with the game and get them thinking about it rather than just bombarding them with explanations. That's the whole point of asking "What do you want to do here?" at every opportunity during the training game. I have no idea how you extrapolate that out into army choice and a long spiral of defeat leading to depression leading to alcoholism and the destruction of everything that was once good in their life..
And if they want to play Harlequins and are really enthusiastic about it I'd say go for it. There's no point taking someone who's really enthusiastic about an army and really wants to build and paint a bunch of Space Clowns and telling them "ah no, you'd be better off with Raven Guard". I'd probably ask them what they wanted to get out of the hobby - are they looking mainly at competitive tournament gaming, more on the artistic side of things or do they want a mix of both? I'm not going to tell someone that Harlequins are going to be an easy army to play, for example, but I sure as hell ain't going to tell them not to bother if they have their heart set on a Harlequins army.
Had the same sort of discussion with my 11 year old son, who joined secondary school in September and discovered their Warhammer club.
We were talking about what sort of army he was interested in, and without knowing the factions available he said 'it'd be really cool if there was a race of, like, robot skeletons'. Necrons were a no-brainer.
There's no point getting into 'Necrons aren't very competitive right now'. He only plays for an hour after school in a pretty un-competitive 'bring what you've got' sort of environment.
I had my first game against him at home earlier this week. He's only got about 300 points of Necrons so I put together a similar value World Eaters force. I was aiming for thematic rather than competitive, and took some Raptors as that meant he could see what his Deathmarks could do.
And yes, I let him win. It came down to a very fun, fluffy final combat where my Berserkers kept chopping down his Warriors, but they kept getting back up again... Turns out Reanimation Protocols are pretty good in a game this small...
We also talked through what did he learn, what could he do better next time... And he's looking forward to playing again. Which is kind of the point.
The Newman wrote: 3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.
There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:
1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.
2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.
The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.
The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.
I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.
One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.
Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.
I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint
Not like I suggested using $1 brushes or ...ok, so I did suggest $1 paint might pass muster with enough practice. And a $1 bottle of Americana did the primary coat on 9000 points of Marines with a quarter of the bottle to spare, so when you say the $3 bottle of Vallejo will cover 2000 points I believe it.
I shudder to think what your opinion would be of my choice of primer.
Probably not super great, if I'm being honest. I've used 6$ cans of army painter primer for ages, and a while back I tried out 3.50$ rustoleum because I heard over and over "It's exactly the same, it's just as good, you're just throwing money away!" and surprise surprise, the models looked like I had primed them twice, I got pools in the recesses, and every single model came out god damn sticky.
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Ishagu wrote: Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.
The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.
I'm not saying you let them win forever. Am I living in some alternative universe where people don't have common sense? Or do people lack social experience? Who knows...
If you are telling someone how to play the game because they don't yet understand the most basic rules and tactics, and then you beat them in that same game you look like an arse lol. You instructed them to lose.
The tutorial game is not a game to decide a winner. It's a tutorial to teach basic rules. Tactics and proper games come later.
Maybe this is why some of you are lacking the most basic understanding of what the social contract and the gentleman's agreements should entail around this hobby. A few people on the forum understand what I'm trying to say - it would seem that others would instead prefer to stomp the newbie who's never played a game before to show him what the game is about? Clearly if that's your mentality you've missed the point of 40k
I mean, I don't know if winning and losing is really a "thing" the first time I tend to play a game. Usually, I'll run something like a unit of space marines against 110 points of shoota boyz or something, here's how you move, here's unit coherency, here's how cover works, now we're going to do some melee...and then we wrap up after I go through the basic mechanics.
Crispy78 wrote: In a first game, you are literally showing them how the game works. How the turn sequence goes, how to shoot, how to attack.
Talking about tri-pointing them etc at that stage is ridiculous, it would be like getting into heel-and-toe gear shifting on a first driving lesson.
No, it's not. They need to not be surprised by it in the future. The game is not that deep or complex.
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Ishagu wrote: Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.
The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.
I'm not saying you let them win forever. Am I living in some alternative universe where people don't have common sense? Or do people lack social experience? Who knows...
If you are telling someone how to play the game because they don't yet understand the most basic rules and tactics, and then you beat them in that same game you look like an arse lol. You instructed them to lose.
The tutorial game is not a game to decide a winner. It's a tutorial to teach basic rules. Tactics and proper games come later.
Maybe this is why some of you are lacking the most basic understanding of what the social contract and the gentleman's agreements should entail around this hobby. A few people on the forum understand what I'm trying to say - it would seem that others would instead prefer to stomp the newbie who's never played a game before to show him what the game is about? Clearly if that's your mentality you've missed the point of 40k
And you prefer to misrepresent the game to them. I probably restart the game several times to maximize the learning curve.
On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.
Um, having done wrestling for several years myself, and multiple other martial arts myself (was actually supposed to be in Prague last week for a fencing tournament), I have never seen anything of this sort occur. Hell, normally you don't even actually get to spar/bout/etc until you've gotten basics like footwork, measure, some technique, etc down first.
Normally I find Ishagu's statements to be pretty intentionally calculated to troll, but in this instance I don't think he's giving terrible advice. While I don't agree that the new player *must* win their first game (or that the first game has have a determined winner at all), I don't think throwing people into the deep end is a universally functional introduction.
It's fine as long as you aren't playing "gotcha". Instead, explain it like "This is what I would do in a normal game, so this is what you should look out for." Whether you do it or not means very little. You can even rewind, so they can adapt to the tactic they are now aware of.
This game doesn't have the curve of wrestling or martial arts.
The Newman wrote: 3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.
There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:
1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.
2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.
The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.
The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.
I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.
One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.
Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.
I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint
Not like I suggested using $1 brushes or ...ok, so I did suggest $1 paint might pass muster with enough practice. And a $1 bottle of Americana did the primary coat on 9000 points of Marines with a quarter of the bottle to spare, so when you say the $3 bottle of Vallejo will cover 2000 points I believe it.
I shudder to think what your opinion would be of my choice of primer.
Probably not super great, if I'm being honest. I've used 6$ cans of army painter primer for ages, and a while back I tried out 3.50$ rustoleum because I heard over and over "It's exactly the same, it's just as good, you're just throwing money away!" and surprise surprise, the models looked like I had primed them twice, I got pools in the recesses, and every single model came out god damn sticky.
There's probably a level of "damn it muscle memory" going on there, if you operate a can of Rustoleum the same way you operate a can of Army Painter I'd fully expect you to get poor results. Yes it covers a tad thicker, but I've never had a model come out sticky and (at least in my experience) it's not just $6 vs $3.50, it's $6 vs $3.50 that covers ten times as many models.
But to paraphrase; I'm no pro-painter and I'm not entering any contests, but I like to think I review for the everyman and considering I've been painting for most of my life the average gamer is even worse than me. The non-sarcastic version is if I can get someone past the hump of cost/time/details are too small/whatever so they have a sea of blue and silver dudes with a decent blue-wash effect (or whatever) instead of a sea of sprue-gray dudes then I consider that a win.
I started 40k last year and here’s my perspective on starting your army:
Painting takes a long time so don’t be in a rush to get a painted army to the table, unless your a natural.
Try to get the basics right before moving into things like wet blending and edge highlighting. Get your bases smooth and even and your layer paints the right consistency (thinness) for building up multiple layers.
There are loads of tutorials on line but this means there are lots of different techniques and you need to find one that suits you
If your really keen on building up your painting technique to a high standard don’t bother with the games workshop tutorials although I think their concept of battle ready and parade ready is worth taking on board
The only good GW brush is the shade brush otherwise don’t waster your money like I did
GW paints are good colours despite being more expensive and in those stupid pots so don’t discount them. Other companies don’t do the exact same colours under different names. However don’t buy GW whites. Vallejo white is the best I’ve used.
Painting white is hard. And yellow. And large areas of black.
My best brush is a synthetic so don’t discount them despite what some people say. brush care is so important. I’ve been through about 20 brushes in a year I am embarrassed to say.
Painting space marines can be a bit repetitive and boring because they are so uniform so it might be good to have a variety of units to paint up but don’t buy too much because it sits there unpainted for ages and it’s a bit demotivating. That might be a question of taste. I started with dark angels and now am painting emperors children and having a lot more fun
Get a good tool for removing mould lines and bits left over from sprues cos once you painted over then it’s really annoying.
It’s all advice though, find your own way and have fun doing it. You are already deviating from the codex chapters which is great, I think it’s freeing if there’s not as much established for the army your painting as it lets you be creative. Probably why I am enjoying the EC.
Oh! If you're planning to do any kit bashing at all that's a completely different set of tools. Do not just grab your standard modeling scalpel and think you're set. A razor saw and plastic clippers (which look like wire cutters but have a completely different blade profile) will make your life so much easier it's not funny.
I have finally taken the plunge and decided to start this wonderful hobby. I have ordered a paint set and 3 Space Marine Intercessors to get me started.
I've been a long time follower of the books and online bat reps and have settled on Space Marines with the intention of either making a Minotaur chapter or my own unique successor chapter.
I am really confused with the changes to space marines and don't really know where to start, as the last time i followed it was all scouts, tactical squads, assault marines and terminators. Now it appears to be Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators, Reivers and Primaris marines. i am awaiting a Codex but would really appreciate if someone could bring em up to speed with what exactly has changed (are these just new names for the same units??).
My hope is to try and find a local group that would be interested in running a path to glory type of campaign to allow me to gradually build and model my army.
Additionally any advice on how best to cheaply assemble an army (which box sets are most cost efficient etc.) and also if there are cheaper paint and brush alternatives than the citadel ones.
Cheers in advance guys!
Space marine intercessors are a little larger than standard marines and basically have 2 wounds so are tougher, but more points of course than standard troops (personally i dont like them), a good cost efficient start is a starter kit depending on what you want your army to look like, but most contain the core units most people pick in any case/ But get your head around command points first and battalions etc so you can decide weather you want to build an army around command points as you will need minimum troops etc. you can alsways split your starter kit and sell what you dont want on eBay.
have some games at a store / game venue, be careful of the noob stompas though, most people are fairly friendly and wont pull out the article B-21 clause 3.a rule on your first game and cut you some slack and let you make mistakes while purposfully making mistakes themselves. Nothing worse than being crushed into the ground on your first game but some folk are like that!
the best advice i can give... is when you pick an army, spend a long time picking it, researching how to play with it, what units work and if they play style works for you. For example if you like shooting stuff from the back of the field then Orks is going to end up in tears for you unless you like losing alot and before you commit to buy it, have a play with other armies just in case!
the best army on paper is usually not the most fun to play with either.
- Stick with that army through the good and bad, otherwise you will end up changing armies like underwear and never stick with it with will just = more money!
- Start slow, & paint slow, The worse thing you can do is buy a 2000pt army and assemble it to play with it straight away, you will rush putting stuff together, rush the mold line cleaning, your army poses wont be considered and the painting will invariably be rushed, buy small, build slowly and paint slowly.
- face to face gaming and use models by proxy, by this i mean just stick anything on the table and use it as something out the book, gives you a true feel for the unit, better than buying it assembling it, realizing you dont like them, and putting them on eBay. playing face to face also gives you a chance to see how others play and see some armies up close to decide what you want yourself!
- Practice painting on any old thing, find something cheap on eBay where half the models are ruined and there are a couple unpainted and go wild on them, theyre cheap and it dont matter if you mess it up
On Painintg
- avoid GW paints, they're overpriced and the paint pots are horrendous, they dry out quick, theyre a poor design and paint gets into the lid no matter how careful you are and once they happens the seal is lost and you may as well bin the paint. Army painter offer cheaper paints in pots which will last, there is also vallejo paints which are even better.
- Clean your models! all those mold lines etc, an hour spent cleaning them early on will make all the difference once painted, a good knife and pair of snips are your friend.
- undercoat your models with spray, it might be tempting to just brush on an undercoat, but dont, and spray light coats with a decent rattle can not a cheap non minature spray, otherwise all the detail will be lost (you can go the airbrush route if you want display models but i've managed just fine with a rattle can for over 20 years for anything i paint for gaming)
- Paint with thin paints, slapping on too much paint will leave brush marks, pain thin and stick more coats on if necessary dont try to paint it in one coat if it starts to show through, you will find this alot with reds / yellows etc.
- Paint with large brushes, dont go down the route of using a minuscule detail brush to paint large areas, use detail brushes for eyes etc of course, but paint with as large as possible it will improve your painting skills quicker and make you a better painter with time
- Look after your brushes!! dont leave them standing in water, dont get paint beyond the hairs and wash them properly.
- plenty of YouTube videos on painting to follow the "how to paint" a model for beginners etc.
but most of all there is no right way or wrong way to do anything, as long as your having fun with it who cares right?
There is a gaming store in my town (The Gathering, Limerick). Is this the best way to start learning the rules and playing the game or is there other forums etc.
Heh, glad to hear the gathering is still around! I played in cork back when, but the limerick crowd were always good fun. Always heard good things about the place. Back when I played in cork, I remember cork as being more competitive oriented, limerick was a bi more laid back - I couldn't say I felt this is still the case - it was over ten years ago when I played in Ireland.
I would definitely say to get your leg in the door there and get to know your local community. More important than anything - how you play, or what list you run, what order you collect things, painting etc is who you play against. You need good folks and gaming peers more than seeing them as throwaway opponents or npcs. The people you play with, against and alongside, or even the people you just talk shop to are the most important part of a social hobby. Play with like minded people, even if it takes a while to find them.
And by that time the learning curve becomes really strange from my point of view, because what am I learning as a new player, if you are letting me win ?
The basic mechanics of the game, for a start. Getting the foundations down. There's nothing strange there. There's more to sport/games than just a binary winning or losing.
Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.
I don't necessarily ascribe to 'giving them the win', but I ascribe to 'having the win available to them, and give them the opportunity to go for it'. While everyone is different, and while 'the schools of hard knocks' has some merit (in Warmachine for example, losing your first couple of games to earn your wings was a right of passage) I certainly don't ascribe to the notion that you have to go all out all of the time and that somehow this is doing people a favour, and that not doing this is an insult.
It's how we teach kids too. You don't just go out of your way to crush them because you can. That's somewhere on the road to bullying.
But letting someone win, is stupid. I have seen people drop out of school,because of them winning . For first 3 months they were winning based on genetics, and when others trained they were just winning by being bigger. And then when the quarterly exams came they got choked out, they didn't knew how to counter moves with anything besides raw power and one person even got seriously injured, because while we train in age groups, the fight cathegories were age and weight. And when they were faced with people who were for 1+plus at the school and had similar weight they got destroyed, as in litteraly the guy had his left collar bone broken.
No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.
Karol wrote: [
Okey, and now the new person tells you, that they want to play harlequins, or some other bad army. They buy it, training wheels are off, and they get destroyed even by casual lists over and over again. They get less and less happy, and the fun is not there. And now they options are play an army that isn't very bad, quit the game after spending a ton of money on it or stay and hope GW fixs stuff.
Removed - BrookM
And all of this time, you're what? Staying silent? Waiting to make an easy kill, and take their scalp? If you're teaching someone and they like the space clowns, you can actually engage with them as their peer, maybe even accomodate. I'd point out the harlies probsbly won't do on their own in the hyper competitive scene, and that he would probsbly have to game-build around that fact. Not everyone wants to play cut throats top tier tournament lists. And that's ok. And I say this as someone who is quite happy to accommodate. We, as players have as much of an ability to deal with these things too, and if you ask me, we also have the incentive to do this.
On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.
You know Karol, crushing kids like that on their first day, or exposure to the sport isn't how most folks approach life. It's not healthy. Crushing people. Knocking them out etc - It doesn't necessarily make people humble or learn better. Hell, depending on the person there's every chance they just won't learn, they'll just break. Its just institutional bullying and reinforces a power dynamic where you are helpless.
There's also the chance you do it to a sociopath who decides to respond to bullies with bullets. Especially in the context of martial arts/ choke out, etc.
... all the other kids
with their pumped up kicks
better run better run
outrun my gun
faster than bullets
Alpha male toxicity is one of the underlying causes of school violence. In a sports school, I would imagine that its omnipresent, and it's difficult to step back and see it for what it is, because within the microcosm, everyone is a part of the culture.
I agree that this doesn't necessarily mean you have to let them win. I like the earlier suggestion of making the win available and seeing if the new player can see the gap and make it work.
Nobody ever goes into their first game expecting a win, they'll catch on if you deliberately lose.
But, give them a couple of opportunities for their guys to do awesome things, and a couple of opportunities to seize on your "mistakes" for advantage so that it feels close and there's meaningful milestones for improvement, which can and should after a first game both include additional assets and better system mastery.
Like any tutorial, it's probably also best to leave parts of the system out: they probably don't need to think about command points right away, or even psychic powers if they've chosen an army that's not really caster-centric, or drafting their own lists.
Introduce additional levels to the game as they grow. Focus on the macro, then on the micro. Once they can move, shoot, and assault, then bring in things like tri-pointing.
The goal is not to scare them away by showing them how out of their depth they are. You want to show them both that they can do it, but it just takes a little more. Give them a win every once in a while, but as I said, nobody new expects to win outside of getting lucky or being matched against another newbie and people aren't that stupid, so it should be as often as they expect to get lucky.
Ishagu wrote: It's definitely best to learn face to face.
Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.
There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.
The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc
I don't think I heard a worse advice to start anything ever. How is someone suppose to learn anything, if they are let to win. Worse, if they are fooled in to thinking they are winning, they may get a wrong idea about how things really are, and then reality can teach them a much harsher lesson. Better to lose 20-30 games when starting with a start collecting box, then buy a 2000pts army and suddenly face the reality of real meta game, and potential wasted hundrads of dollars.
No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.
No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.
Aha, so it is a few tutorial games, they spend 300-400$. Play and then they get the teeth kicking, which by the way seems an odd thing to do post game.
I would rather see the game how it is day one in my first game, rather then find it out later one and be told by someone like Ishagu, that I picked a wrong army or wrong units to play when I was buying them.
Alpha male toxicity is one of the underlying causes of school violence. In a sports school, I would imagine that its omnipresent, and it's difficult to step back and see it for what it is, because within the microcosm, everyone is a part of the culture.
If you act violent at a sports school, you get a warrning maybe twice. And if you keep it up or endanger someone durning training, specialy a ranker you just get kicked out school. this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard about sports schools being said. I did got to normal schools before for 6 years. In sports schools you don't get older kids beating or stealing from younger kids, because everyone is too busy with their training, and if someone was stupid enough to try it , they get kicked out. And no one wants to lose the chance to be on a district or national team. Plus unlike normal schools in sports schools you have enough training, even if you do track, to use up all the steam. non of the 2 hours of PE per week and you can run in the corridors, meaning magic happens, when supervisors aren't around.
I went to a sports school precisly because I had problems with normal schools. saying that the schools and people in them are toxic males is stupid. What about the all the girls from girl classes, they are toxic men too?
Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.
So another words you are teaching someone that they don't have to try, that nothing bad happens, and that nice people will always let you win. This more or less means you would have to do it all their life, and never play real games, because the moment they play a real one, all the feel good stuff is gone, unless they picked a power faction. also false confidance and spending money is a very bad idea.
No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.
what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.
And all of this time, you're what? Staying silent? Waiting to make an easy kill, and take their scalp? If you're teaching someone and they like the space clowns, you can actually engage with them as their peer, maybe even accomodate. I'd point out the harlies probsbly won't do on their own in the hyper competitive scene, and that he would probsbly have to game-build around that fact. Not everyone wants to play cut throats top tier tournament lists. And that's ok. And I say this as someone who is quite happy to accommodate. We, as players have as much of an ability to deal with these things too, and if you ask me, we also have the incentive to do this.
why would someone who is selling models or who has a harly army to sell tell anyone to a new player that the army is bad? it would be going against his own interests to sell a bad army or models that are clogging his store.
It has nothing to do with going to tournaments, or at least I don't see what it has suppose to have to do with them.
You know Karol, crushing kids like that on their first day, or exposure to the sport isn't how most folks approach life. It's not healthy. Crushing people. Knocking them out etc - It doesn't necessarily make people humble or learn better. Hell, depending on the person there's every chance they just won't learn, they'll just break. Its just institutional bullying and reinforces a power dynamic where you are helpless.
how else do you teach respect? People thing they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff. Or that they were part of a team as younglings, wrestling in full protection gear. Having your first real fight and someone else overpowering you like a rag doll, is not a good thing, it feels horrible. But it is a great base for never wanting for it to happen to you ever again. If someone cuddles you with feel good stuff and lies about how stuff really looks, then you are in for a rough ride. heck you could have 4 weeks of cuddled training, then have your first fight, bust a joint or muscle, and your dreams of ever becoming a sports man just went down the drain. heck you can't even stay in school if you can't fully recover. w40k is the same. 1 month of honey moon period of people letting you win in tutorial games, making you feel good, you buy in to you think is good based on the tutorial games you just played. And suddenly GW decides to errata or faq stuff, and not only is the stuff you just paid hard cash for bad, but also you suddenly find out that the tutorial games weren't very indicative of how real games look like.
For this way of playing, people would have to tutorial game each other all the time, never stop. And on top of it only play with and against more or less equal in power armies.
On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.
Um, having done wrestling for several years myself, and multiple other martial arts myself (was actually supposed to be in Prague last week for a fencing tournament), I have never seen anything of this sort occur. Hell, normally you don't even actually get to spar/bout/etc until you've gotten basics like footwork, measure, some technique, etc down first.
Normally I find Ishagu's statements to be pretty intentionally calculated to troll, but in this instance I don't think he's giving terrible advice. While I don't agree that the new player *must* win their first game (or that the first game has have a determined winner at all), I don't think throwing people into the deep end is a universally functional introduction.
you learn those things in younglings. no one starts wrestling at the age of 13, it would be stupid to do. you could get injured very easily by someone who started at 7. Heck you can get injured at 13+ easily too, durning growth period many things happen. That is why when someone starts, the first training you have you get crushed. I mean it is technicly even unfair, because girl or boy, someone who is 19-20 is going to rag doll you with bigger weight and 6+ years more of expiriance.
Our trainers always say that to mold something you need to smash it up first. This doesn't mean trainings can't be fun, specialy camps. And pre events you more or less have to push as hard as possible without being injured, at least durning the forming period. this weeds out those that can't keep up and regenerate fast enough. And makes you stronger, as in physical term of the word. all the micro fractions help the bones get stronger and muscles get not just bigger, but actually useful.
Plus our trainers tell us that we are getting cuddle anyway. In their times they were no safty issues, no protection for people under 19. supplements weren't regulated , so a 16 year old from Prague had to face off vs some roided up kid from Kirgistan who has been wrestling bears since he was 9.
I think you should probably use several people. Give each of your friends a light patrol from a different race, and put a token in the middle of each board in a slow day at a game store.
Then give your new guy a nice tank, a nice transport, 3 or 4 fast attacks, and some officers and troops int he transport. His mission? Move from one edge of the first board across the other boards, one after another, taking each token as captured in his transport (or in a pinch, carrying it in a different vehicle) .. maybe 2 tanks. but about 500 poitns, ish.
There should be plenty of extra firepower to bring down the patrols he faces, each time, and you can get different types of patrol and different types of players to try to stop him. Result is, he will probably get somewhere, but not necesarily the whole way through, and that's ok. By the end of it, he knows how several armies "feel" a bit, and probably his tactics improve each board as he crosses the store (especially with all his new friends saying "k, you should have done this here..."
Since he is not set "to win or lose" against anyone with more than 1/4 his forces, odds are low he gets crushed right off.
I find the best way to teach someone is to point out options (both what he can do and what you can do"
things like "yes I can charge this formation of Havok Marines with my dreadnought, and I'll proably kill them, but that puts my dreadnought at risk of your charging with Abaddon next turn and killing it"
TBH I think there's a bit of a miscommunication here. some people are talking about an actual game and others are about teaching someone to play. You don't teach someone how to swim by throwing them in the deep end of the pool and walking away. (not unless you want to be charged with manslaughter or even murder) you teach em the ropes first. the goal of your first few games of 40k with a total newbie should not be "to win" and it should not be "to lose" rather it should be about helping them learn the fundamentals of the game.
Martel732 wrote: IT is disservice to misrepresent the game to a new player. Show it in all its GWness from the get go so they know what they are in for.
If you regret getting into the game yourself, you're free to leave.
The objective of demonstrations and of games with new players is to ensure they have fun and want to come back, play again, and desire to eventually gain the system mastery and collection size that the rest of the community has, so that the hobby community can grow.
If you don't think new people should join the hobby, why are you still part of it?
I'm not a GW employee, but I like having new opponents to play on a regular basis, and I want the hobby of tabletop miniatures wargaming to grow [or at least die less slowly]. I think it's fun, and I would like to share what I find fun with other people. I would wager most people in the hobby who are actively enjoying being part of the hobby feel similarly.
If you are not enjoying your participation, it's a hobby, not a job, so unless you work for GW, then you're free to walk away and play video games or something.
Just because you enjoy it, doesn't mean someone else will. You need to make the ugly side clear from the beginning so they can make an informed choice.
I never said new people shouldn't join. They should just go in eyes open, is all.
They definitely need to know that GW likes to wallpaper paper models arbitrarily between codices and edition changes. And that people will cheat them intentionally and unintentionally. And people will try to interpret every rule in their favor.
Martel732 wrote: Just because you enjoy it, doesn't mean someone else will. You need to make the ugly side clear from the beginning so they can make an informed choice.
I never said new people shouldn't join. They should just go in eyes open, is all.
They definitely need to know that GW likes to wallpaper paper models arbitrarily between codices and edition changes.
what the feth does "wallpaper paper models" even mean?
Oh, it's a card game term. When a card becomes garbage, it's "wallpaper". I guess we could use the term "recyling" since they are plastic? Like how I've got six predators I'll probably never use again.
If you don't think new people should join the hobby, why are you still part of it?
I'm not a GW employee, but I like having new opponents to play on a regular basis, and I want the hobby of tabletop miniatures wargaming to grow [or at least die less slowly]. I think it's fun, and I would like to share what I find fun with other people. I would wager most people in the hobby who are actively enjoying being part of the hobby feel similarly.
If you are not enjoying your participation, it's a hobby, not a job, so unless you work for GW, then you're free to walk away and play video games or something.
Agree, getting people into the hobby and seeing them enjoy it is as much part of the hobby to me as painting or writing on dakka.
I'm happy for every person that I helped join the hobby that sticked around.
That said, my "teach the new guy"-army right now is just a horde of goff skarboyz with characters running at them. New players tend to lose the game anyways (exceptions do exist), but they get two turns of killing stuff before the tide hits. You don't need to let them win, but blasting them off the table with a knight army will scare aware even players who would genuinely be interested otherwise.
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Martel732 wrote: Oh, it's a card game term. When a card becomes garbage, it's "wallpaper". I guess we could use the term "recyling" since they are plastic? Like how I've got six predators I'll probably never use again.
The "School of hard knocks" introduction only works at school/bootcamp. In hobby circles where a person is giving their free time for their own personal enjoyment there is NO requirement nor pressure for them to turn up to week 2. If you present the worst of a game and the negative and beat them in the game and make it seem like its a school of pain before you get any fun then the vast majority of people will walk away and won't come back.
This approach "can" work in schools and such because you HAVE to come back tomorrow. You can knock them hard the first few days and then guide them into the enjoyment and reward later because you've got an enforced setting where the person has to come back. There is an enforced relationship going on.
Army training can take things further still with a full personal breakdown and rebuilding - agian the rebuilding is critical to the system working and it only works because they HAVE to come back.
OF course either system taken into the extremes is utterly stupid and will backfire. A school of hardknocks that is too harsh will have more people simply quit the enforced setting; whilst if you present the game as unicorns, rainbows and obscene goodness then people will leave once they spot some negatives.
EVERY hobby and interest has up and downsides. The key to a new person is to present a fair assessment, but also to encourage them. To show them the good and positive side. In the end with a hobby we all make our choices on what we do and typically (for most people) we remain because we see the positives and they outweigh the negatives. Meanwhile those who have or are thinking of leaving can only see the negatives being greater than the positives.
A key aspect to realise is that whilst some of the positives and negatives are quantifiable, some are also objective. Furthermore some of the quantifiable negatives are only negative within a specific context. As a result a person can still find a negative a positive because their context, impression and interpretation are different.
For a person getting into wargames at a club which has a healthy and welcoming population they don't have to spend anything. Their first demo games could be with someone else's models; codex; rulebook and terrain. They've not spent anything at all and they can still get an introduction into the game. GW stores do this ALL the time. Same as how you can often get a free mini through some basic building and painting lessons from the staff member if they've time.
Hobby groups can do the very same thing - providing an introduction for minimal cost. Heck Warmachine PG system required those joining up to have TWO starter armies from different factions at least. Thus being able to run demo games for newbies.
After that introduction the new person can start to make their own mind up on if they want to join in and spend some money. And yes there is risk that 5 months down the line they might find they don't enjoy it. That's why hobby money is disposable income. It's money that if we lose it we don't suffer for it. They might think they'll enjoy it and come to not like it; that's fine they've learned, experienced something new, not financially crippled themselves and now chosen to move on to something else.
Same as in any other hobby - you can't decide if you like fishing unless you fish; or photography; or boxing or hiking. Sure some hobbies have almost no start up costs; some have more - if you try out speedboat racing you might spend a fortune renting boats until you make a choice.
That's the risk and that's just part of life and no demo game can fix that. Best people can do is present the game in a positive light. That's not about ignoring problems, its about choosing the positive angle on the experience.
And quite honestly if you're first thoughts of introducing someone new are to focus on the negatives there's a good chance this reflects more on you than the hobby. It's reflecting that you're not really all that keen. You're not telling lies, but you are focusing on the downsides; on the negatives; on the side that basically says "you don't want in on this" and that is you perspective. Chances are you yourself are on the way out. Perhaps you don't "want" too (eg you want Gw to balance rules better) but you are never the less moving out and heading to other games or other hobbies. Your basically NOT the person to run the demo game.
I'd say it's not as important whether the new player wins or loses, what matters is if they have FUN.
Once, I played a new fellow. Real small game, he had the Start Collecting for SW, and a few extra models. I brought some Daemons.
I absolutely smashed his face in-I lost a few wounds off a character, and a few lesser Daemons. He was tabled. But here's the thing-I did not make a big deal of it. I helped him get into the spirit of things-talking about heroic last stands of his characters, awesome descriptions of tentacles flailing and swords a-stabbing... He had a blast. I didn't brag that I crushed him (because, quite honestly, I felt kinda bad-I didn't think my list was that hard!), I didn't even mention it. He knew he lost, but he had fun. So, he came again another day.
Additionally, different things will appeal to different folk. I studied the rules a lot before I ever played the game-I was pretty competitive from the start. I'd feel a little insulted if a opponent intentionally went easy on me, even when I was learning. Other players, like the chap I talked about above, are more into the story and descriptions. I doubt he'd mind if I had brought a worse list or misplayed on purpose (though he probably wouldn't want to be TOLD that) as long as the story of the game was cool.
Martel732 wrote: Can't lie; several weeks into the lockdown and I'm not missing the live game much at all.
I still think you are being disingenuous by not mentioning GW's track record and all the horsegak that comes with their games and the community.
So you're a new player interested in 40k/Sigmar/etc....
I'm teaching you how to play this game with the aim of you having some fun & joining us next week+. What will badmouthing the game/company (even if some of it's true) gain me?
*By "us" I mean specifically my circles/the group at the local shop. I will point out that the other shops in the area have differing play styles/approaches. My circles & local shop are fairly laid back & novice friendly, especially on the painting aspect. If you go off to the tourneys that's not my concern.
* I don't own the shop & I'm not employed by it.
* I will warn you if I think some army/build you're interested in is harder to play.
JNAProductions wrote: I'd say it's not as important whether the new player wins or loses, what matters is if they have FUN.
The single most important and best game i have ever had i did not win. I don't think i will ever forget that game. This is sound advice.
Also if you can give them a memorable play that they can tell a story its even better, at that point they will not care if they won or lost, they have a story.
Martel732 wrote: Can't lie; several weeks into the lockdown and I'm not missing the live game much at all.
I still think you are being disingenuous by not mentioning GW's track record and all the horsegak that comes with their games and the community.
Honestly if your first thoughts of introducing someone to a new game is introducing them to the negative aspects then you're really not a good person to introduce someone to a new game.
EVERYTHING has its downsides and risks and yes some of those are worth pointing out early as pitfalls to avoid. That said if you're getting to the point of pointing out community problems and potential worries there then chances are you're not going to get many new players. Heck if your local community has major issues you have to warn people of during an introduction then freaking heck it sounds like your local group needs a kick up the backside to sort their problems out. Or the group is too far gone and it would be better to start a new club to welcome people to the hobby.
Again if your first and early welcoming thoughts are the negative then either your local area has serious problems and/or you're focusing too much on the bad because you, yourself are on the out and moving onto other things and thus not as interested as you once were and are choosing to focus on the negative aspects.
No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.
Aha, so it is a few tutorial games, they spend 300-400$. Play and then they get the teeth kicking, which by the way seems an odd thing to do post game.
I would rather see the game how it is day one in my first game, rather then find it out later one and be told by someone like Ishagu, that I picked a wrong army or wrong units to play when I was buying them.
If they want to jump all in without research and do a karol, then that's on them. Personally I'd advise them to build up slower than that.
Regarding seeing how the game is on day one, the game is whatever you make of it. The toxic soul destroying version of the game you insist on is probsbly nothing like the game folks like myself or Ishagu play.
If all you insist on seeing or doing is the absolute worst, most brutal and extreme version something can be , of course you are going to be disappointed, probsbly in most things in life.
Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.
So another words you are teaching someone that they don't have to try, that nothing bad happens, and that nice people will always let you win. This more or less means you would have to do it all their life, and never play real games, because the moment they play a real one, all the feel good stuff is gone, unless they picked a power faction. also false confidance and spending money is a very bad idea.
Not at all. What I'm doing is teaching the game, and encouraging them.
There is nothing there about people never having to try or that nothing bad will happen. Believe it or not, things are not binary. I know you swim in a shark pit, but not all of us are that unfortunate.
I simply value people and would rather encourage them to better, and to find that it's actually within them to do this.
No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.
what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.
I'm teachings them the game.
Why would, or should I stop trying to make people fell good? As opposed to what, making them feel rubbish? I'm a cheerful guy. I'd rather spread joy than misery. Making people around me feel better makes me feel better. I've had enough misery in my life that I'd rather not contribute to more, thanks. This hobby is something of a refuge for a lot of people. Plenty folks come here just to relax and enjoy themselves.
why would someone who is selling models or who has a harly army to sell tell anyone to a new player that the army is bad? it would be going against his own interests to sell a bad army or models that are clogging his store.
It has nothing to do with going to tournaments, or at least I don't see what it has suppose to have to do with them.
I said tournament lists, not tournaments. You know, the hyper competitive scene that is about 3% of the game? Not everyone is interested in chasing that dragon.
'Bad' is a meaningless descriptor. 'bad' requires context. Harlies being bad in tournament style hyper competitive lists means bugger all when the person buying it isn't interested in that scene or style of play, for example. Or if it's just for a painting project for another.
And I don't own a shop. I'm not selling models. I'm speaking entirely as a member of the community. A new player tells me they like harlies. And what do I think? I will encourage them, and ask them what they're hoping to do. I can, and certainly will tell them that they're not great in the competitive scene, especialy on their own, and if they want to collect them they'll have to accomodate that fact and game-build around it. Then again, I'd also point out what's great in the competitive season changes with the wind and they'll spend a fortune keeping up so its hardly an empirically 'better' approach. Both approaches have consequences.
In my experience, good behaviour, manners, treating people well, being a confidante, showing good mentorship if it's with youngin's etc. I wouldn't put choking them out on that list. When I went to school, Some of the teachers I respected the most (or people in life generally) never had to do so much as raise their voice, let alone their fists to earn people's respect.
People thing they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff. Or that they were part of a team as younglings, wrestling in full protection gear. Having your first real fight and someone else overpowering you like a rag doll, is not a good thing, it feels horrible. But it is a great base for never wanting for it to happen to you ever again. If someone cuddles you with feel good stuff and lies about how stuff really looks, then you are in for a rough ride.
I don't disagree. Being overpowered like a rag doll feels terrible. Who would want to partake in that?
But Who is lying about how stuff really looks? We are talking about intro games, remember? And ttgs are not 'real fights'. Not everyone gets involved in this hobby to take it to that level. Feel good stuff isn't cuddling people. Or lying to them about life. It's valuing them as people. You lift up your friends. You lift up your family. You lift up your spouse. If you don't understand this, or refuse to accept it, you will never understand the best part of our community.
I can walk people through the game, let them get their punches in, give them a chance to grab the win (and hopefully they do) and still also have a conversation, coming from a lot of experience within this hobby about the good and the bad, and the ins and the outs and ask them what's they're hoping to do in their journey, and from that point, point them in the right direction. No lies. That's just disrespectful.
heck you could have 4 weeks of cuddled training, then have your first fight, bust a joint or muscle, and your dreams of ever becoming a sports man just went down the drain. heck you can't even stay in school if you can't fully recover. w40k is the same. 1 month of honey moon period of people letting you win in tutorial games, making you feel good, you buy in to you think is good based on the tutorial games you just played. And suddenly GW decides to errata or faq stuff, and not only is the stuff you just paid hard cash for bad, but also you suddenly find out that the tutorial games weren't very indicative of how real games look like.
Yes because 40k is just like that where we choke people out and give them life limiting injuries to prove a point...
If only people could, you know, do something like talk about this kind of stuff to the folks that are getting into the hobby. And maybe, let them know that there is a competitive scene out there that encompasses about 1 or 2% of the game options that sees most other lists as prey. Let them know that gw is notorious for balance . But that scene isn't the 'real game', despite what it's adherents claim. It's no more the real game any more than what me or Ishagu play is the real game. The game is whatever you make of it. If they want to do tournaments, or play with the sharks, best of luck with them. But I'll have told them about the sharp teeth out there first, because that's the right thing to do.
JNAProductions wrote: I'd say it's not as important whether the new player wins or loses, what matters is if they have FUN.
The single most important and best game i have ever had i did not win. I don't think i will ever forget that game. This is sound advice.
Also if you can give them a memorable play that they can tell a story its even better, at that point they will not care if they won or lost, they have a story.
Yeah, I don't even remember who ended up winning the game that got me into 40k. We got half the rules wrong, but I still remember my grey hunters melta bombing an ork dreadnought, immobilizing it but being stuck in combat with it as it proceeded to shred them, ragnar blackmane sweeping a whole unit of ork boyz after they totally wiped his squad, bjorn fighting deffcoptas like king kong fighting biplanes, and spending 20 minutes trying to figure out exactly what a deffrolla did and laughing about Death or Glory rolls.
It's all language and choices that describe a highly negative connection.
What about information, making aware, opening their horizons. There are ways and choices of language and presentation and when information is presented which are suitable. A beginner is (unless they express direct interest) perhaps not going to be worried about the top tournament balance. Probably for several years until they are learned enough to be in a position to win no matter if they've the weakest army in the meta or a meta beating super list.
Sorry, I have to backtrack a bit: "...and jumps in with a $300-$400 purchase". That's the base rules, Codex, a Start Collecting box, and maybe enough troop purchases to get up to a battalion.
I do think it's a bit ironic that the cheapest 2000 point army you can build is probably three Castellans (which is the most expensive single kit they make without getting into FW stuff) and that will still set you back $500 plus another $100 for the rules. ...at least I think that fits in 2000 points. Hold that thought.
Nope, two Castellans and a Valiant. Same kits though.
Martel732 wrote: It's still a lot of money. They should be made aware of all GW's problems.
Its a lot of money to some people. Other people i know that are into MTG kept hearing how costly it was then we showed them for about $600 can get a full army with rules thats good for at least a year before you need to buy another $40 book, and maybe a unit here or there to have fun with, but in general all models are good for years. Their jaws dropped and laughed as they spend that every 6 months. Two of them literally sold a couple decks and bought everything they needed to play and then some.
Another friend works on cars... he has 6k into his current car. Just one part is more than most armies.
Martel732 wrote: It's still a lot of money. They should be made aware of all GW's problems.
Price is relative.
A pint costs me a fiver.
Couple of beers for me and mrs deadnight, and maybe a pub grub is the best part of forty or fifty quid for a handful of hours.
Hell you should see what a pair of her shoes costs.
Trip to the cinema, with snacks is the best part of forty quid for a few hours.
My console cost me a few hundred, and games are up to sixty quid a pop, and some you're done with after a run through of a few hours (shakes fist at resi 3 remake) with a very limited replay.
Couple of hundred quid for an army - for the raw material it's silly, like most things. But for the value you can get, if you value those things - it's huge.
And yes, you should give an honest appraisal of things - that includes the downsides, but let's be fair, give the full picture and also give the upsides, and the mitigations of said downsides as well.
what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.
It's a game. The point of the game is to have fun. If they're not 'feeling good' at the end of the experience, you're doing it wrong.
Transparency on some level is important. A person considering entry into the hobby should know about the full expense, length of games, required knowledge level to enjoy the game, expectation (or not) of the group to have models painted, etc. Underselling the financial requirements, time, or hobby is simply underhanded politics that aims to support the institution at the expense of the individual.
Not by spelling it out, but the intent is clearly there.
You seem to have come to the conclusion that starting WH40k was a mistake for you - and there is nothing wrong with that. I have come to the same conclusion during 7th and dropped the game and never intended to return. Boy, was I wrong The thing is, your suggestions are very much aimed at protecting others from making the same mistake, but starting 40k is not a mistake by itself.
There are a couple of things people starting out need to be made aware of - and I do whenever I bring people to the hobby I do, especially considering rules quality and support, expenses and time and work required to get new units ready for play. But telling them that GW is a clusterfeth that will definitely feth up the game at every possible chance? Neither true nor helpful.
Martel732 wrote: GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.
As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.
So why are you still here?
Honest question, if you've not enjoyed the game for three whole editions and consider that GW overcharges (ergo that models are not worth the money you pay for them); why are you still here? Sure Dakka deals in loads of other games, but why are you here in a thread about introducing new people and welcoming them into the 40K hobby?
I'm not asking that to insult you, but perhaps to make you pause and question yourself.
I've seen plenty of cases (esp online where remaining part of a community is effortless and requires no energy to partake in - unlike going to the local club). Where people have moved on from a hobby or game or company or brand for a multitude of reasons. Yet they still remain in those social groups and they also tend to act more and more negative. Mostly its because there's a growing divide between them and the rest of the community they are interacting with. The community, by and large, recognises the negative, but is not wallowing in the negative and is enjoying the positive and is promoting and welcoming others. Meanwhile the person who has moved on (without perhaps realising it themselves) is pushing at the negative sides more and more - venting frustrations. In the worst cases the venting turns to anger and aggression against other members.
Sometimes you've got to stop and take stock in your direction and focus. Perhaps its time to put aside threads on getting started in 40K and threads in 40K game in general and perhaps start your own or move onto other games that you are interested in. To put aside the venting and justification to leave and instead focus on the positives of other games. Got into Warmachine - or Dropfleet or whatever then go post about that. Welcome others into those games; encourage them; post photos of your models; battle reports; engage in the latest news and promotions etc...
IT might sound odd but sometimes that can really really help you mentally move on and also find the fun and joy in the hobby in general.
Martel732 wrote: GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.
As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.
Well thanks for hanging around the community spreading your positivity!
Such a pleasant ray of sunshine. If only every new player had someone like you to teach them the ropes!
Nah, I left that to the IG player who conned everyone into playing fluffy lists against him then gunlined them off the table mercilessly. But he had a great and fluffy attitude about him!
Martel732 wrote: GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.
As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.
So why are you still here?
Honest question, if you've not enjoyed the game for three whole editions and consider that GW overcharges (ergo that models are not worth the money you pay for them); why are you still here? Sure Dakka deals in loads of other games, but why are you here in a thread about introducing new people and welcoming them into the 40K hobby?
I'm not asking that to insult you, but perhaps to make you pause and question yourself.
I've seen plenty of cases (esp online where remaining part of a community is effortless and requires no energy to partake in - unlike going to the local club). Where people have moved on from a hobby or game or company or brand for a multitude of reasons. Yet they still remain in those social groups and they also tend to act more and more negative. Mostly its because there's a growing divide between them and the rest of the community they are interacting with. The community, by and large, recognises the negative, but is not wallowing in the negative and is enjoying the positive and is promoting and welcoming others. Meanwhile the person who has moved on (without perhaps realising it themselves) is pushing at the negative sides more and more - venting frustrations. In the worst cases the venting turns to anger and aggression against other members.
Sometimes you've got to stop and take stock in your direction and focus. Perhaps its time to put aside threads on getting started in 40K and threads in 40K game in general and perhaps start your own or move onto other games that you are interested in. To put aside the venting and justification to leave and instead focus on the positives of other games. Got into Warmachine - or Dropfleet or whatever then go post about that. Welcome others into those games; encourage them; post photos of your models; battle reports; engage in the latest news and promotions etc...
IT might sound odd but sometimes that can really really help you mentally move on and also find the fun and joy in the hobby in general.
Yeah, I'm probably done playing live games of 8th. Even when its permitted.
Martel732 wrote: GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.
As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.
Well thanks for hanging around the community spreading your positivity!
Such a pleasant ray of sunshine. If only every new player had someone like you to teach them the ropes!
Nah, I left that to the IG player who conned everyone into playing fluffy lists against him then gunlined them off the table mercilessly. But he had a great and fluffy attitude about him!
Martel732 wrote: GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.
As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.
So why are you still here?
Honest question, if you've not enjoyed the game for three whole editions and consider that GW overcharges (ergo that models are not worth the money you pay for them); why are you still here? Sure Dakka deals in loads of other games, but why are you here in a thread about introducing new people and welcoming them into the 40K hobby?
I'm not asking that to insult you, but perhaps to make you pause and question yourself.
I've seen plenty of cases (esp online where remaining part of a community is effortless and requires no energy to partake in - unlike going to the local club). Where people have moved on from a hobby or game or company or brand for a multitude of reasons. Yet they still remain in those social groups and they also tend to act more and more negative. Mostly its because there's a growing divide between them and the rest of the community they are interacting with. The community, by and large, recognises the negative, but is not wallowing in the negative and is enjoying the positive and is promoting and welcoming others. Meanwhile the person who has moved on (without perhaps realising it themselves) is pushing at the negative sides more and more - venting frustrations. In the worst cases the venting turns to anger and aggression against other members.
Sometimes you've got to stop and take stock in your direction and focus. Perhaps its time to put aside threads on getting started in 40K and threads in 40K game in general and perhaps start your own or move onto other games that you are interested in. To put aside the venting and justification to leave and instead focus on the positives of other games. Got into Warmachine - or Dropfleet or whatever then go post about that. Welcome others into those games; encourage them; post photos of your models; battle reports; engage in the latest news and promotions etc...
IT might sound odd but sometimes that can really really help you mentally move on and also find the fun and joy in the hobby in general.
Yeah, I'm probably done playing live games of 8th. Even when its permitted.
I would think that we would want our local player base to grow, and that we would encourage new players rather than discourage them. This doesn't mean trying to sell them the hobby, but providing a positive experience. I've seen a few scenarios, and you should usually take a handicap without making it obvious. Take an underpowered list but play smart to set an example of game play:
Tutorial Game for a Friend. You select the forces from your collection and come up with a scenario that highlights the features of the game in a fun way. Your friend should win. The forces/mission should be tilted in your friend's favour so that he prevails even though you play your troops intelligently. There should be moving, shooting and melee. Alternatively, you "GM" two friends through the game where the forces are equal and you are happy as long as they learn the rules.
First Game for a Stranger. Lets say your group has a message board and a new player comes on asking for a game. He says its his first game of 40K and that he has 1000 points of Space Marines from the starter set. You agree and come up with an underpowered list where you play intelligently but he has an advantage. Avoid wombo-combos and alpha-strikes. He probably wins, has a positive experience and learns the rules. You can then start to ratchet it up - like a training montage from a movie.
Open Game Night. This time the new player shows up to Open Gaming night with a 2000 point list drawn from the starter set and says he is looking for his first real game before the tournament next week that he's already signed up for. This is tough. Be honest up front and play as you would but take the time to explain the finer points of the game/rules.
Tournament. Your opponent announces that its his first game of 40K. Its a tournament, so I guess you have to go ahead and do your thing but do your best to be a good sport and provide mentorship without condescension. I've been the guy playing his first game of an edition in a tournament setting, my first Flames of War game was in a tournament and my first AOS game was in a tournament. I knew what i was getting into and did my best not to hamper my opponent with dumb questions while getting smoked.
As for an interested onlooker asking about how to get started in the hobby, its fine to point out the costs but they are interested and its not like you are pushing some illicit substance. If you wouldn't recommend the game why would you play it in the first place? I've also seen one of our few AOS regulars utterly crush a kid in a pickup game. The kid had two 1st Edition starter sets put together of Stormcasts while the experienced player had tooled up Flesh Eater Courts. Kid barely got to do anything, looked utterly downcast and I've never seen him since. Not how we grow our gaming group.
Martel732 wrote: I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.
So why the feth are you posting in a thread specifically about starting 40k and being about as negative as it's possible to be? I'm not the greatest fan of 8th and think it's a particularly bad game to try to play competitively but I still play it for other reasons, including social and the background for the game and the fact that two players who are on the same wavelength can actually have quite an enjoyable experience. I also see possibilities for the game to vastly improve from the too-simplistic framework it currently uses into something a lot more interesting (though think it's unlikely GW will take it in that direction).
So when a new player shows up I'm not going to discuss the cut-throat world of top-level competitive 40k unless they specifically bring that up. The vast, vast majority of players have no interest in playing in tournaments and even if they do it's usually not something a brand new player is interested in for a good while anyway. If a player expresses and interest in an army I'll encourage that interest but temper their expectation accordingly. Someone who really wants an all-Terminator SM army, for example, will probably need to be made aware that they'll struggle to win with that force but there are ways to do that without just telling them 40k's terrible and they shouldn't bother playing.
That's my gut reaction when it comes to GW prices...but i learned that after building 7 different armies, then switching to other systems for variety so........
That being said
>step 1
pick a faction
>step 2
buy/read the codex and core rules
>step 3
make an army list, get imput from veteran players if you can about unit types and the kind of army/player you want to be
>step 4
buy only the units you need for your specific army list..a little at a time. building up to a full 40K army goes alot smoother if you take it in small doses.
>step 5
assemble and paint what you have before you buy additional units.(you always get better with practice so don't kill yourself if you are not a pro painter from the start there are tons of videos online on techniques you can learn over time.)
As for paints and brushes
I use krylon for plastics paints for base colors/primers-found at most stores like walmart or target (and comparatively cheap compared to GW sprays), walmart has a fine selection of very nice brush packs that are far cheaper than any GW or game store charges, as for detail paints i am a huge fan of vallejo model color paints. the eye dropper style tops allow you to put a little bit of paint on your paint pallete and not dry out the open flip tops like GW paints.
My only advice for starting, is to start small, and thankfully, you've already done just that by buying what you've bought.
I'm sure someone else has explained the whole Primaris thing to you better than I could already. I just want to ask, where on Craggy Island are you? If you're anywhere near Galway, I'd love to give you a game sometime in the Autumn.
Oh! One more thing: if you're inventing your own chapter, don't invent your own colour scheme! Find one that you like online and copy it. Learning to paint is hard enough when you're following a scheme someone has already tested; it's damn near impossible if you're making it up yourself.
Martel732 wrote: I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.
So why the feth are you posting in a thread specifically about starting 40k and being about as negative as it's possible to be? I'm not the greatest fan of 8th and think it's a particularly bad game to try to play competitively but I still play it for other reasons, including social and the background for the game and the fact that two players who are on the same wavelength can actually have quite an enjoyable experience. I also see possibilities for the game to vastly improve from the too-simplistic framework it currently uses into something a lot more interesting (though think it's unlikely GW will take it in that direction).
So when a new player shows up I'm not going to discuss the cut-throat world of top-level competitive 40k unless they specifically bring that up. The vast, vast majority of players have no interest in playing in tournaments and even if they do it's usually not something a brand new player is interested in for a good while anyway. If a player expresses and interest in an army I'll encourage that interest but temper their expectation accordingly. Someone who really wants an all-Terminator SM army, for example, will probably need to be made aware that they'll struggle to win with that force but there are ways to do that without just telling them 40k's terrible and they shouldn't bother playing.
I could be way MORE negative, trust me. Let me clarify. I don't think its fair at all to only discuss the positives like a salesman.
Martel732 wrote: I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.
So why the feth are you posting in a thread specifically about starting 40k and being about as negative as it's possible to be? I'm not the greatest fan of 8th and think it's a particularly bad game to try to play competitively but I still play it for other reasons, including social and the background for the game and the fact that two players who are on the same wavelength can actually have quite an enjoyable experience. I also see possibilities for the game to vastly improve from the too-simplistic framework it currently uses into something a lot more interesting (though think it's unlikely GW will take it in that direction).
So when a new player shows up I'm not going to discuss the cut-throat world of top-level competitive 40k unless they specifically bring that up. The vast, vast majority of players have no interest in playing in tournaments and even if they do it's usually not something a brand new player is interested in for a good while anyway. If a player expresses and interest in an army I'll encourage that interest but temper their expectation accordingly. Someone who really wants an all-Terminator SM army, for example, will probably need to be made aware that they'll struggle to win with that force but there are ways to do that without just telling them 40k's terrible and they shouldn't bother playing.
I could be way MORE negative, trust me. Let me clarify. I don't think its fair at all to only discuss the positives like a salesman.
I am sure many of us could be way more negative GW invokes that in gamers because of their past behavior with rules writing and prices. we love the 40K universe, and GW makes fine miniatures but taking this topic with a bit of humor is the way i approach it since i play something like 10 different systems that are all pretty much better written and have better rules mechanics than 8th ed 40K.
No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.
Aha, so it is a few tutorial games, they spend 300-400$. Play and then they get the teeth kicking, which by the way seems an odd thing to do post game.
I would rather see the game how it is day one in my first game, rather then find it out later one and be told by someone like Ishagu, that I picked a wrong army or wrong units to play when I was buying them.
Alpha male toxicity is one of the underlying causes of school violence. In a sports school, I would imagine that its omnipresent, and it's difficult to step back and see it for what it is, because within the microcosm, everyone is a part of the culture.
If you act violent at a sports school, you get a warrning maybe twice. And if you keep it up or endanger someone durning training, specialy a ranker you just get kicked out school. this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard about sports schools being said. I did got to normal schools before for 6 years. In sports schools you don't get older kids beating or stealing from younger kids, because everyone is too busy with their training, and if someone was stupid enough to try it , they get kicked out. And no one wants to lose the chance to be on a district or national team. Plus unlike normal schools in sports schools you have enough training, even if you do track, to use up all the steam. non of the 2 hours of PE per week and you can run in the corridors, meaning magic happens, when supervisors aren't around.
I went to a sports school precisly because I had problems with normal schools. saying that the schools and people in them are toxic males is stupid. What about the all the girls from girl classes, they are toxic men too?
Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.
So another words you are teaching someone that they don't have to try, that nothing bad happens, and that nice people will always let you win. This more or less means you would have to do it all their life, and never play real games, because the moment they play a real one, all the feel good stuff is gone, unless they picked a power faction. also false confidance and spending money is a very bad idea.
No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.
what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.
And all of this time, you're what? Staying silent? Waiting to make an easy kill, and take their scalp? If you're teaching someone and they like the space clowns, you can actually engage with them as their peer, maybe even accomodate. I'd point out the harlies probsbly won't do on their own in the hyper competitive scene, and that he would probsbly have to game-build around that fact. Not everyone wants to play cut throats top tier tournament lists. And that's ok. And I say this as someone who is quite happy to accommodate. We, as players have as much of an ability to deal with these things too, and if you ask me, we also have the incentive to do this.
why would someone who is selling models or who has a harly army to sell tell anyone to a new player that the army is bad? it would be going against his own interests to sell a bad army or models that are clogging his store.
It has nothing to do with going to tournaments, or at least I don't see what it has suppose to have to do with them.
You know Karol, crushing kids like that on their first day, or exposure to the sport isn't how most folks approach life. It's not healthy. Crushing people. Knocking them out etc - It doesn't necessarily make people humble or learn better. Hell, depending on the person there's every chance they just won't learn, they'll just break. Its just institutional bullying and reinforces a power dynamic where you are helpless.
how else do you teach respect? People thing they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff. Or that they were part of a team as younglings, wrestling in full protection gear. Having your first real fight and someone else overpowering you like a rag doll, is not a good thing, it feels horrible. But it is a great base for never wanting for it to happen to you ever again. If someone cuddles you with feel good stuff and lies about how stuff really looks, then you are in for a rough ride. heck you could have 4 weeks of cuddled training, then have your first fight, bust a joint or muscle, and your dreams of ever becoming a sports man just went down the drain. heck you can't even stay in school if you can't fully recover. w40k is the same. 1 month of honey moon period of people letting you win in tutorial games, making you feel good, you buy in to you think is good based on the tutorial games you just played. And suddenly GW decides to errata or faq stuff, and not only is the stuff you just paid hard cash for bad, but also you suddenly find out that the tutorial games weren't very indicative of how real games look like.
For this way of playing, people would have to tutorial game each other all the time, never stop. And on top of it only play with and against more or less equal in power armies.
My first game was atrocious, I lost 67 of 68 models on the first turn to shooting, His Ad Mech vs My Marines, 7th Edition. It felt awful and I wanted to quit. Fortunately I met a group who didn't care about Min/Maxing and pushing teeth in. Those are the people I play the game with and it's a much, much better experience.
Martel732 wrote: I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.
Well then, seeing as 8th edition is no longer your concern, if you're going to stick around just have mercy on the rest of us & just stop complaining about it.
I'm not sure its healthy for your mental state to be both playing a game you hate AND playing with the undead - especially considering that thus far necromancy has a very poor track record of actually working so chances are you're just going to be playing yourself. ;P
Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.
BrookM wrote: Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.
Thanks!
It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community
BrookM wrote: Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.
Thanks!
It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community
BrookM wrote: Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.
Thanks!
It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community
Agree 100%, can't exalt enough.
Yeah, join our "Everything is awesome" club or get out! On a serious note: while I don't necessarily agree with every criticism (or praise) of 40k/gw I read, I do appreciate that people are free to voice these opinions here.
On-topic: I'd definitely orchestrate a tutorial-like game for a starting player, where winning or losing aren't the focus of the game. I still remember my first whfantasy game in my local gw way back when, where my fluffy character-heavy tzeentch beastmen army was completely obliterated by an optimized dwarf castle list in a very onesided battle. It was no fun, I didn't learn much about the core game mechanics and I never bothered to play there again.
BrookM wrote: Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.
Thanks!
It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community
People are free to listen to whom they chose to believe. Sounds like you are afraid of even tangentially contrary opinions.
and before you commit to buy it, have a play with other armies just in case!
