Do you think there is any chance our units will be able to use open-topped to fire into close combat, as a vehicle?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I agree on the pic. The blade is exacly like the current Wych ones, and the ribbon is very like the ones all over the new Drazhar mini (which show he's super special).
If it is in fact Lelith, I reckon she will probably get Ynnari rules as well.
Do you think there is any chance our units will be able to use open-topped to fire into close combat, as a vehicle?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I agree on the pic. The blade is exacly like the current Wych ones, and the ribbon is very like the ones all over the new Drazhar mini (which show he's super special).
If it is in fact Lelith, I reckon she will probably get Ynnari rules as well.
Well looks like for now no forum rules changes as they haven't even updated the post yet.
Open top wills tay the same for now, maybe later in 9th as codices comes out and rules amendments, but i don't see any changes to open top sadly.
I'm personally waiting for point changes to really get into 9th, i have been play testing the rules, but without the amendments and points changes we are just learning the little differences between the two games.
I agree. It just feels unfair that troops in a Venom/Raider would not treated as part of the vehicle for the purposes of firing into close combat, but then are treated as part of the vehicle if it falls back; they can't fire.
The points will be interesting, since I mainly play 1'250 - 1'500, I cant see much changing; I'll probably end up playing higher points games.
I suspect that Covens will benefit the most from what we've seen thus far, do you agree? I've been busy converting Grotesques.
I dunno how to feel about 9th. It has a lot based around command points now i think and i really don't like command points as they are in 8th. It benefits expensive units more than msu or hordes usually. I'll try to read more on it but with corona it's kind of irrelevant anyway.
Yeah it does feel like 9th will be geared towards MSU elite units over hordes. I'd really like if our transported units get to shoot into melee with their tanks, would maybe help soften the blow that our transports can no longer fire their ranged weapons after falling back.
On that note now that units with FLY can no longer shoot after falling back that will affect our transports and, talos/cronos (which should be ok cause they want to be in melee anyways right?) and also our Hellions. Anyone remember Hellions? Yeah, neither do I. For what it's worth though they're now even worse in 9th than they were in 8th. Hopefully our 9th edition dex gives them a use, I really wish I could run these guys.
Hellions at least has Hit and Run rule, we also have a stratagem to fallback and shoot, to bad Hellions are still bad. They can't handle staying in combat and are are worst that tanks can shoot into combat, so you can't even tie up units anymore.
Hellions needs a a 5++ always to even justify them on the table. Can you make them work time to time? Yes, are there 20 other better units? Yes.
Grots, Talos, and Wyches are going to be good in DE for 9th. MSU of wyches will be more fun to play as well.
I'm not even sure a flat 5++ will be enough to make me consider hellions. Some AP on their weapons or maybe a natural eviscerating flyby rule (without stratagem use) would help too. Maybe giving them the hard to hit rule that flyers have? I don't have a great answer for what Hellions need to be worthwhile but currently it would be awesome if they had something to make them stand out and offer something other units don't already do better.
On that note why will MSU wyches be more fun? I tend to run a lot of wyches, 3 units of 10 in raiders typically but I'm worried that won't be as good this edition. What do the 5-girl units offer that 10-girl units will struggle with?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm not even sure a flat 5++ will be enough to make me consider hellions. Some AP on their weapons or maybe a natural eviscerating flyby rule (without stratagem use) would help too. Maybe giving them the hard to hit rule that flyers have? I don't have a great answer for what Hellions need to be worthwhile but currently it would be awesome if they had something to make them stand out and offer something other units don't already do better.
On that note why will MSU wyches be more fun? I tend to run a lot of wyches, 3 units of 10 in raiders typically but I'm worried that won't be as good this edition. What do the 5-girl units offer that 10-girl units will struggle with?
If you field units in raiders you could go 2x5 instead of 1x10. You'll lose one special weapon but gain an hekatrix.
I think units of 10 will be fine though, it's 11+ dudes squads that are going to be hit hard. Footslogging 20 wyches could be bad, 10 girls in a raider should do their job like they used to.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm not even sure a flat 5++ will be enough to make me consider hellions. Some AP on their weapons or maybe a natural eviscerating flyby rule (without stratagem use) would help too. Maybe giving them the hard to hit rule that flyers have? I don't have a great answer for what Hellions need to be worthwhile but currently it would be awesome if they had something to make them stand out and offer something other units don't already do better.
On that note why will MSU wyches be more fun? I tend to run a lot of wyches, 3 units of 10 in raiders typically but I'm worried that won't be as good this edition. What do the 5-girl units offer that 10-girl units will struggle with?
If you field units in raiders you could go 2x5 instead of 1x10. You'll lose one special weapon but gain an hekatrix.
I think units of 10 will be fine though, it's 11+ dudes squads that are going to be hit hard. Footslogging 20 wyches could be bad, 10 girls in a raider should do their job like they used to.
Wouldn't I lose 2 special weapons? it's 1 special for 5-9 models and 3 for 10 models right? On the topic of running two 5's in a raider I wouldn't mind that but it really hurts getting the most bang for your buck from your drugs. My current setup for wyches is +1A for one unit, +1S for another and +1T for the unit that goes with my Succubus as a bodyguard. Doubling my number of units would definitely mess with my drug options but maybe I can find an adequate distribution that works. I really hope drugs get a re-work in the new codex, playing around the lackluster Ld, WS drugs hurts my head sometimes. It feels kinda punishing that I pay points to have drugs on Wych units but get punished for taking too many Cult units and have to take sub-par options instead of the drugs that will actually help me.
Since I'm now going to need to take some Coven troops, any advice about how to best deploy/equip/use Wracks? Is it worth taking 10 for Black Cornucopians? Which of the upgrades do you think are worthwhile? Footslogging or in transports?
Wouldn't I lose 2 special weapons? it's 1 special for 5-9 models and 3 for 10 models right? On the topic of running two 5's in a raider I wouldn't mind that but it really hurts getting the most bang for your buck from your drugs.
You're right about drugs but not about special weapons. A 10 man squad has an hekatrix and 3 special weapons, 2x5 have 2 special weapons and 2 hekatrix, so in the end there are 4 special weapons models in the same raider anyway. And an hekatrix is better than a regular wych with a special weapon.
I see what you mean now blackie, I always compared number of special weapons from one unit of ten to a single unit of 5 instead of the more accurate two units of five. The drug upkeep on MSU wyches would be the single biggest hurdle to jump for me as my ocd on useful drugs for units over throwaway drugs would drive me crazy. Also running MSU would make me prefer venoms as transports which are fine. Just leaves me with the awkward issue of where does my Succubus ride as I currently run her in raider with bodyguard of 9.
With the new character targetting rules is anyone going to be changing how they run their HQs? Unit of 9 wyches in raider seems best for succubus as running her on foot behind the transports will definitely get her killed. My Haemy travels with my talos so if they die he's useless at that point anyways. Just thinkin bout my archon now, Sslyth go up in value to us in 9th maybe? Should I look at buying a couple for him?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I see what you mean now blackie, I always compared number of special weapons from one unit of ten to a single unit of 5 instead of the more accurate two units of five. The drug upkeep on MSU wyches would be the single biggest hurdle to jump for me as my ocd on useful drugs for units over throwaway drugs would drive me crazy. Also running MSU would make me prefer venoms as transports which are fine. Just leaves me with the awkward issue of where does my Succubus ride as I currently run her in raider with bodyguard of 9.
With the new character targetting rules is anyone going to be changing how they run their HQs? Unit of 9 wyches in raider seems best for succubus as running her on foot behind the transports will definitely get her killed. My Haemy travels with my talos so if they die he's useless at that point anyways. Just thinkin bout my archon now, Sslyth go up in value to us in 9th maybe? Should I look at buying a couple for him?
Yep, 10mans just makes stratagems better. If i'm going more than 5 wyches its 100% always going to be 10mans for that extra weapon.
I did change how i play, i just stay near a 5+ man and a vehicle if i can, or near MC's.
Their points makes ZERO SENSE, all weapons are basically 5 points now, even tho some are 2x as strong as others, but yet they are both 5pts on the same model.
Cronos went up almost twice as much as the Talos when no one plays it anyways.
Hellions went up 3pts when their ONLY change to be playable was to stay the same points.
All Troupes +3pts so that means no one will take more than the 3 from raiding force.
Dis cannon went up, which is ok, but went up 10pts over 5pts.
Flyers went up when all DE players testing 9th basically said they are not worht it at current points, meaning new points are even worst.
My list will now look like everyone else something like this.
Raiding Force
Drazhar
Kabal
Ravager
Venom
I'll be dropping Razorwings, Incubi, and Cronos....and taking Drazhar, Rakarth, Taloi, Grots, and as many Kabalites in Venoms that I can fit (with Blast Pistols).
Automatically Appended Next Post: From the Drukhari 9th FAQs:
Add the following: ‘While this transport is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, embarked units cannot shoot, except with any Pistols they are equipped with.’
I guess it's what we expected, but doesn't make Drukhari life any more enjoyabe after the points hike kick in the teeth.
Black Heart Kabal
HQ: Archon 60, Huskblade 5, Writ of the Living Muse, Labyrinthine Cunning
Troops: Kabalites x5 with Blaster 55
Troops: Kabalites x10 with Blaster+Dark Lance 110
Transport: Raider 70 with Dark Lance 15
Transport: Venom 60 with Splinter Cannon 10
Fast: x5 Scourges 75 with 4x Haywire 40
Heavy: Ravager 85 with Dark Lances 45
Custom cult: Test of Skill+Slashing Impact
HQ: Succubus 55 with Shardnet+Impaler 10 and Helm of Spite relic. Precision Blows trait.
Troop: X10 Wyches 110 with Shardnet 10 Blast Pistol 5 and 2x Hydra Gauntlets 10
Transport: Raider 70 with Disintegrator 25 Grisly Trophies+Chainsnares 4
Fast: X12 Reavers 344 with 4x Blasters 40 and 4x grav talons 12
Fast: X15 Hellions 225 with Agonizer 5
Flyer: Voidraven 185 with missiles 0
I run into a couple of limitations based on my collection here. My main problem is that I own 30 kabalites and 50 wyches:
1) I only own one ravager. Hence the second Kab squad, which seems pretty much like a massive waste of points over a second trip DL ravager. In a perfect world, I'd have 2 ravs and 2x5 mandrakes.
2) part of me really wants to try 20 hellions but no way in hell am I buying more of those guys, lol. I think with full access to terrain rules (infantry keyword) and less painful morale out of CB, Hellions might actually be a thing you want to give a try.
General strategy:
Grotesques, Reavers, Cronos, Hellions and Wyches are on midboard control duty, scoring points, dying slow, and not minding being tied up by stuff. Mandrakes, Scourges, and the Voidraven offer point removal of problematic enemy units. Ravager, Venom, and Raider primarily hang back and hold backfield objectives, while Wracks hang in the lowest threat zone.
This list is more reactive than dark eldar lists I've played with previously, and puts comparatively few eggs in the basket of turn 1 alpha strike. I think with Obscuring+Dense Cover terrain, deploying to go second is more viable than ever with a speedy list. If I do go first, I can use Reavers+Kabal stuff+Voidraven to tempt fate with some good explosions right into the enemy lines, but the biggest bonus of turn 1 will be the ability to have my grots, my wych raider, and my max t5 biker squad all on objectives going "go ahead, try to knock us all off."
Amishprn86 wrote: Hellions at least has Hit and Run rule, we also have a stratagem to fallback and shoot, to bad Hellions are still bad. They can't handle staying in combat and are are worst that tanks can shoot into combat, so you can't even tie up units anymore.
Hellions needs a a 5++ always to even justify them on the table. Can you make them work time to time? Yes, are there 20 other better units? Yes.
Grots, Talos, and Wyches are going to be good in DE for 9th. MSU of wyches will be more fun to play as well.
Honestly if helglaives were ap -2 (at least-1) I would definitely take them in 9th. Without guaranteed overwatch they are small and maneuverable enough to keep primaris humble and away from objectives, and they can't be locked up by vehicles to take away their assault potential.
There issue before was dying to OW before they could even deliver a blow and lack of AP. Going from 14-15 wasn't horrible, they were probably 2 points too much in 8th, but going from 12-15 would still put them in line with how everything else was increased.
If we are lucky maybe the next book will give them some AP.
Edit: I missed that they had already dropped to 12 lmao. Well either way it's a sidestep. Wyches going to 11 is much tougher to swallow IMO. I'd argue a hellion is better point for point then the wych now.
Amishprn86 wrote: Hellions at least has Hit and Run rule, we also have a stratagem to fallback and shoot, to bad Hellions are still bad. They can't handle staying in combat and are are worst that tanks can shoot into combat, so you can't even tie up units anymore.
Hellions needs a a 5++ always to even justify them on the table. Can you make them work time to time? Yes, are there 20 other better units? Yes.
Grots, Talos, and Wyches are going to be good in DE for 9th. MSU of wyches will be more fun to play as well.
Honestly if helglaives were ap -2 (at least-1) I would definitely take them in 9th. Without guaranteed overwatch they are small and maneuverable enough to keep primaris humble and away from objectives, and they can't be locked up by vehicles to take away their assault potential.
There issue before was dying to OW before they could even deliver a blow and lack of AP. Going from 14-15 wasn't horrible, they were probably 2 points too much in 8th, but going from 12-15 would still put them in line with how everything else was increased.
If we are lucky maybe the next book will give them some AP.
Edit: I missed that they had already dropped to 12 lmao. Well either way it's a sidestep. Wyches going to 11 is much tougher to swallow IMO. I'd argue a hellion is better point for point then the wych now.
I'm gonna see how they perform, personally. one big squad, +1A drugs, Test of Skill+Slashing Impact. I'm gonna take all 15 that I've got and run them as one big unit.
the way I see it, they've got a few things going for them:
1) Obscuring Terrain and Dense Cover both create infinite pillars of their effect, and Hellions are tall, which was what made them tougher to hide. Also, they're infantry keyword, so they can get all the cover, and FLY, which makes them avoid all the negative cover effects.
2) new morale really honestly does make cheapos with no LD boosts feel a lot less easy to guarantee a wipe than they used to be. If theyr'e sitting on an objective, you really do have to get them down to exactly one model to be sure they're out of dodge. That means, IMO, CB is less necessary on Hellions, and CB was fairly suboptimal compared to the added reliability from Red Grief or the added Killiness from ToS+Slashing. Assuming equal points, 13 hellions with attack drugs down 8/10 of a squad of intercessors on the charge, which is a hell of a lot more than wyches bring home, and they carve up basically any T7 vehicle as well.
My calculus at this point is:
-wyches are for making a raider slightly more obnoxious to remove from an objective, and for tying up units like oblits and terminators after they drop. I'm gonna run move drugs, 10-wych squad, 1 net. Maybe 2 hydras. I'll test some games, but I don't think 5+net is hard enough to kill in melee.
-Reavers are for objective grabbing and holding, just durable enough to be irritating to remove and mount antitank weaponry
-Hellions are for starting behind obscuring terrain, then leaping out and smashing something once it moves on to an objective.
Your thoughts are similar to mine. I feel you have to rethink how to use assault units in 9th, and use them as counter chargers/ deterrents.
For example my red corsair berserker list will just camp multiple small berserkers behind terrain within threat range of objectives. Nobody wants anything to do with that lol.
I think you may be correct on wych squad numbers, but only if your banking on losing their transport. Otherwise you can lead the assault with their ride, then contact a far edge of the unit thus mitigating return hits and also tying the unit to the transport. Now it all depends what your locking down, but if the transport is say a raider with dissy, and you lock up some intercessors with it then they are in a world of hurt come your turn.
You could also take 2x5 wych teams in a raider with dual blast pistols. Not only a decent drive by unit for only +10 on those blast pistols, but also a charge deterrent, since the BP can shoot off the raider into melee lol.
Gremore wrote: So do we wanna talk about the 9pt Kabalite warrior and how it feels like we got hosed a little?
I've always liked to play fluffy, troop-heavy lists.
Apparently this is now a crime in GW's eyes.
I guess my DE can go back in the box for the next decade, and I'll instead use my Imperial Guard (assuming I can cope with the massive 1pt increase their troops got. ).
Incidentally, a Kabalite Warrior now costs the same as a Militarum Tempestus Scion (which get better armour, better weapons, cheaper special weapons, 2-per-5 special weapons, a better pistol option for the sergeant, and built-in deep strike). Food for thought.
This points spanking and crappy FAQ, following on from our insultingly poor PA has me thinking that somebody at GW must have been rolled over by a Drukhari list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oaka wrote: Trying to find some of the positive changes, I really like 21-point Sslyth as backfield objective holders.
I see it as Drazhar's airbag just got 6 points cheaper .... I don't think you can re-roll 1s for vehicle casualties any more, can you?
harlokin wrote: This points spanking and crappy FAQ, following on from our insultingly poor PA has me thinking that somebody at GW must have been rolled over by a Drukhari list.
Perhaps this is their revenge for Drukhari players not rushing to buy the overpriced garbage that was Phoenix Rising.
harlokin wrote: I see it as Drazhar's airbag just got 6 points cheaper
I just dont 'get' Wracks...I fully appreciate that they are hard to remove, but they don't seem to 'do' anything; it makes us feel more like Death Guard than Drukhari.
I suspect that the demise of Kabalites&Venoms is being overstated. Sure their efficiency has taken a shellacking, but they still offer mobility, dispersed threat, and a bit of resilience; all of which will be valuable with the new missions.
harlokin wrote: I just dont 'get' Wracks...I fully appreciate that they are hard to remove, but they don't seem to 'do' anything; it makes us feel more like Death Guard than Drukhari.
I suspect that the demise of Kabalites&Venoms is being overstated. Sure their efficiency has taken a shellacking, but they still offer mobility, dispersed threat, and a bit of resilience; all of which will be valuable with the new missions.
Checked Forgeworld.....Reapers are out of stock
I think both kabs and wyches will end up being usable out of transports, because this is absolutely going to be an edition of "shooty thing pops out of deep strike/outflank and double-shoot nukes your stuff". armies are going to get heavier with vehicles, GW gave very low cost effective deep strike to basically anything that wants it, single shot dedicated antitank got relatively way cheaper than almost anything else...I think a wych countercharge unit sitting in a raider on an objective is a fairly good answer to the deep striking squad of obliterators/eradicators/fire dragons/retributors/what have you.The nice thing is even our most expensive vehicles tend to be less pricy than those other factions bring to the table, and we do have stratagems that are good for making life more annoying for those types of units, particularly since they tend to be solo operations rather than coming with their own re-roll bubbles.
in one of the test games of 8th I played, 10 grots and a weirdboy were able to keep a pair of oblits occupied from the bottom of turn 2 when they came on, to the top of turn 4 when they finally freed themselves in time for the game to be over. A good amount of that was my opponent continuously attempting to split the uprights with his attacks to kill the weirdboy efficiently, and then rolling poorly and leaving him alive to smite another day, but if you can successfully tie stuff up, it tends to stay tied better than in 8th, and Wyches are uniquely good at that.
We've gone from what was previously an "active" edition to more of a "reactive" edition I think - it's going to be easier to hide just behind terrain, or behind a couple types of cover buffs, and most of the action is going to revolve around trying to take out the units your opponent has moved out to sit on the objective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh...do other people not just make a Reaper by adding a Vaul's Wrath D-cannon on to a Raider chassis with a magnet? Those things are a nice, easy to work with plastic bit that are usually like 4$ on ebay because people always want the vibro cannon.
vipoid wrote: Do you think the extra Wrack squads are worth taking?
For 9th mission, yes. You will want ObjSec for sure. And now the cost of Kabals and Wyches went way up i can not justify them. I've been play testing games at 1800, but its 1 thing to have Talos, vehicles, flyers, and some wych units go up, its another thing for Kabals to go up, they really didn't need a +3pts up. Guardsmen got +1pt...... that really pisses me off to no end. Sure Guardsmen can not go in open top, but they are better with a super cheap hero support (that you'll take anyways b.c HQ taxes) in every way to Kabals, Kabals are 80% more costly, if the venom was the problem then increase that (which they did). The high all 3 troops go up in points the better wracks get at ObjSec b.c they are way tougher (4++ T4, or 5++/-1D T4).
Amishprn86 wrote: Here is my 9th new points list, testing it this Friday.
Raiding Force
Black Heart Patrol Archon: Splinter Pistol, HB Kabals x5
Ravager 3x DC Ravager 3x DC Venom 1x SC
Black Heart Patrol Drazhar
Kabals x5
Mandrakes x5
Ravager 3x DC Venom 1x SC Venom 1x SC
Coven either PoF or AoTF Patrol Haemonculus-Rifle
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Wracks x5
Talos x3
Talos x3
2000pts
Subject to change, Ravagers swap our for Reapers
No Urien or grotesques?
Grots went upt o 45ppm, I can not justify that for now, maybe later, and he is more costly to get +1str, whcih for now i don't have the points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
harlokin wrote: I just dont 'get' Wracks...I fully appreciate that they are hard to remove, but they don't seem to 'do' anything; it makes us feel more like Death Guard than Drukhari.
I suspect that the demise of Kabalites&Venoms is being overstated. Sure their efficiency has taken a shellacking, but they still offer mobility, dispersed threat, and a bit of resilience; all of which will be valuable with the new missions.
Checked Forgeworld.....Reapers are out of stock
They WILL do alot, b.c some secondarys now you can't advance, shoot, charge, melee. So they need to be tough and do nothing.
Sort of coming from the general thread.
I think you are going to see an interesting philosophical debate on how to run what seems a competitively dead faction.
I think the issue is going to be in how bad/dead venoms+raiders are now they can't fallback and shoot. If they are going to remain the workhorses of the faction, I'm suspect wracks will be a thing (unless you bring some to unlock Talos).
I mean its all been nerfed - but if the faction has strength, its in being very fast, allowing for concentration of force and board control. Wracks are not really helping with that. They are tough, but not so tough they won't die to concentration of force. Although if you were taking a couple of 5 man kabalite units to hold back field objectives before, maybe its worth the upgrade. If you are running 3 patrols.
You can still take lots of Venoms/Raiders, but with them going up and nerfed, and the infantry going it its harder to get enough of them and other things in the army. So you either take a few (1-3) or you take a lot (9), but not in the middle (5-6).
With that said this is all pending on how all armies are going to build their lists. I was never scare of some armies but now i am, at the same time SM got harder by 30% at least b.c my anti-marines lists are basically +30% in points and the marines list i fight against just got better even tho they went up in points too (b.c the units people are taking only went up 5-8%). Admech got harder for me too, so did IG. I never had problems with IG it was always a fine match up for the both of us, but all our troops going up +3 and venoms going up, while Guardsmen only went up 1pt means they will be more effective at winning the game via maxing primaries and secondarys.
One of the problems isn't damage, its scoring points and our point changes hurts us in that way more than other armies. We got nerf the Hardest IMO. Eveyone is looking at some armies/list and saying "OMG they got hit hard" but it was castle lists, and heavy gun units like the Riptide, but their infantry didn't get nerf that badly (1t at times) which is what will win games.
You need to be able to clear 1 or 2 objectives and take it to win games, and i think GW knows that better than most players does right now and thats why we got nerf the hardest b.c we are the best in the game at clearing off 1 or 2 objectives and taking them.
I suspect that those recommending Wyches in Raiders may be onto something... Raiders have some anti-tank, Splinter Pistols can be used if/when the vehicle is in close combat, Blast Pistols are now attractive, and Wyches can do some work in close combat (unlike Kabalites) and get a 4++.
Anybody have any idea when the Forgeworld updates are meant to be coming out?......I'm super curious about Reapers.
For 9th mission, yes. You will want ObjSec for sure. And now the cost of Kabals and Wyches went way up i can not justify them.
Ah, fair enough.
Amishprn86 wrote: I've been play testing games at 1800, but its 1 thing to have Talos, vehicles, flyers, and some wych units go up, its another thing for Kabals to go up, they really didn't need a +3pts up. Guardsmen got +1pt...... that really pisses me off to no end. Sure Guardsmen can not go in open top, but they are better with a super cheap hero support (that you'll take anyways b.c HQ taxes) in every way to Kabals, Kabals are 80% more costly, if the venom was the problem then increase that (which they did). The high all 3 troops go up in points the better wracks get at ObjSec b.c they are way tougher (4++ T4, or 5++/-1D T4).
Oh, I absolutely agree regarding the points increased for Kabalites.
I'll be honest, I really don't see myself continuing with Dark Eldar in 9th edition. Maybe they'll still be viable with a lot of Talos and Fliers, but I just don't have any interest in playing that sort of list. I got into DE for stuff like Kabalites in boats, but GW has basically said that I'm having fun wrong by playing the army that way.
Yeah, Just my 180pt Wych unit + Raider went up to 250pts. If you compare that to a lot of other units in the game its a nightmare increase. Venoms with 2 Cannons are as much as a Raider now.
I was really looking forward to a large wych army in 9th, but its done the opposite for me, i see no reasons to even field them at 11pts +15-25 for weapons. Especially when Genestealers are 15pts each and their supports only got better in 9th (Neurothrope no points change, Malanthrope got cheaper, Swarmlord still worth taking, Hive guard a minor points increase) and they can still turn 1 charge. Taking them in 10mans to stop auto max blasts is easy to do and better with new terrain rules.
The more armies i look at the more i think we got hit the hardest out of everyone.
But for those that likes Coven, its a great time to play.
I'll be honest, I really don't see myself continuing with Dark Eldar in 9th edition. Maybe they'll still be viable with a lot of Talos and Fliers, but I just don't have any interest in playing that sort of list. I got into DE for stuff like Kabalites in boats, but GW has basically said that I'm having fun wrong by playing the army that way.
I'm in the same (Kabalite) boat, but I don't have a different option, and I'm frankly not interested in any of the other factions. I'm just going to have to suck it up
I'll be honest, I really don't see myself continuing with Dark Eldar in 9th edition. Maybe they'll still be viable with a lot of Talos and Fliers, but I just don't have any interest in playing that sort of list. I got into DE for stuff like Kabalites in boats, but GW has basically said that I'm having fun wrong by playing the army that way.
I'm in the same (Kabalite) boat, but I don't have a different option, and I'm frankly not interested in any of the other factions. I'm just going to have to suck it up
AT least how 9th is, even if you are slightly under powered you can still win if you play smart with DE, even against Nu Marines. You just need to get your points and deny them points. This might mean throwing units away, but thats fine to get a win.
I'll be honest, I really don't see myself continuing with Dark Eldar in 9th edition. Maybe they'll still be viable with a lot of Talos and Fliers, but I just don't have any interest in playing that sort of list. I got into DE for stuff like Kabalites in boats, but GW has basically said that I'm having fun wrong by playing the army that way.
I'm in the same (Kabalite) boat, but I don't have a different option, and I'm frankly not interested in any of the other factions. I'm just going to have to suck it up
AT least how 9th is, even if you are slightly under powered you can still win if you play smart with DE, even against Nu Marines. You just need to get your points and deny them points. This might mean throwing units away, but thats fine to get a win.
Also, i think i'm going to play my next few games with Stringer Pods on my Talos, cheaper and IDK if i really need the Anti-tank after seeing all the point changes and how i am playing.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, Just my 180pt Wych unit + Raider went up to 250pts. If you compare that to a lot of other units in the game its a nightmare increase. Venoms with 2 Cannons are as much as a Raider now.
I was really looking forward to a large wych army in 9th, but its done the opposite for me, i see no reasons to even field them at 11pts +15-25 for weapons. Especially when Genestealers are 15pts each and their supports only got better in 9th (Neurothrope no points change, Malanthrope got cheaper, Swarmlord still worth taking, Hive guard a minor points increase) and they can still turn 1 charge. Taking them in 10mans to stop auto max blasts is easy to do and better with new terrain rules.
The more armies i look at the more i think we got hit the hardest out of everyone.
But for those that likes Coven, its a great time to play.
100% my thoughts. Was just getting into wyches and 3 raiders, but this is a brutal nerf-beatdown and no mistake. So so arbitrary, I hate it. Ah well, the cool conversion I was doing for my girls is on hold until GW snap out of it. Overall, I think 9e has been a poor balance pass, and that marines will if anything increase their dominance...
I have 170pts left over, so either 1 of 4 things (still thinking about if i have enough infantry or not)
A) 3rd Ravager
B) Incubi + Venom
C) Incubi + Mandrakes
D) 2 units of Mandrakes
Incubi didn't get hit too hard in the points massacre, but I think they still lose out for me when compared to Mandrakes. I really like that the latter don't really need any support from characters or transports, and they can do a bit of everything.
Wow, we really kinda got fethed in the ass with these points values eh?
Hopefully they'll go down with the first chapter approved. I think the list I was going to work on went up by over 200 points.
Of course they get eviscerated as soon as I start painting my army too. I'm having a really hard time figuring out what to run in my army now, not that I play competitively or anything, but still.
So, the rumour is obviously Lilith Hesperax. Any chance of getting some Blood Brides along side her in the same way we got Incubi and Drazhar?
Yeah it's very much looking like Lelith. I'm kind of excited but kind of disapointed that it'll likely be Lelith as she's locked to a specific Obsession and so it limits my list options I can put her in. Drazhar was nice as he could be put in any Drukhari list. I feel before getting Lelith we needed Mandrakes and Grotesques to be done in plastic, her old model isn't even that bad.
With that in mind if it is a Lelith model do you guys plan to use her even if her rules don't change and if you do whats the plan? Webway her in solo, raider with 9 wyches, the new reserve rules?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Yeah it's very much looking like Lelith. I'm kind of excited but kind of disapointed that it'll likely be Lelith as she's locked to a specific Obsession and so it limits my list options I can put her in. Drazhar was nice as he could be put in any Drukhari list. I feel before getting Lelith we needed Mandrakes and Grotesques to be done in plastic, her old model isn't even that bad.
With that in mind if it is a Lelith model do you guys plan to use her even if her rules don't change and if you do whats the plan? Webway her in solo, raider with 9 wyches, the new reserve rules?
She might get a completely new profile and not necessarily locked into a specific wych cult. Ghazghkull was goffs only but with the new model he can be taken in any detachment without breaking the klan bonus, just like Drazhar. The current Lelith I'd probably embark her in raider with 5-9 wyches or run her solo in a venom to keep 10 wyches in raiders.
I actually think her cult is a pretty good one, after doing some math on +1a vs +1s a while ago. It comes in just behind, but what I really like about Strife is that they actually have a good strategy. Fight agains are often locked behind 'end of the fight phase' conditions, whereas strife lets you go again upon the destruction of a unit, meaning your wyches can take quite a chunk out of something. I don't rate Drukhari strats at all, so a 3cp one with some good utility is very welcome.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Wow, we really kinda got fethed in the ass with these points values eh?
Hopefully they'll go down with the first chapter approved. I think the list I was going to work on went up by over 200 points.
Of course they get eviscerated as soon as I start painting my army too. I'm having a really hard time figuring out what to run in my army now, not that I play competitively or anything, but still.
I'm in the same boat, have been playing them since Contrast came out, and they have been on a slow slide sice then. Me culpa
I've ordered some Wyches to try them out a bit, but fundementally I still want my army to feel like Drukhari. I saw someone suggest the Yncarne and 30 Razorwing flocks, but I'd rather not play at all than have to resort to weird edge-case lists.
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grouchoben wrote: I actually think her cult is a pretty good one, after doing some math on +1a vs +1s a while ago. It comes in just behind, but what I really like about Strife is that they actually have a good strategy. Fight agains are often locked behind 'end of the fight phase' conditions, whereas strife lets you go again upon the destruction of a unit, meaning your wyches can take quite a chunk out of something. I don't rate Drukhari strats at all, so a 3cp one with some good utility is very welcome.
I was leaning toward Cursed Blade, as I'm likely to play against Harlequins quite a bit; I figuered having the girls with S4 would be good, and the Booby Traps strat looks like it might be useful.
I normally played Blade for sure, S4/5 really takes them over the top. But I ran a couple of games at the end of 8e with my 28 Wych batallion as Strife, and it's not bad y'know. If Lelith gets new rules that might seal the deal. (All this is academic of course, as the new wych/raider costs are absurd.)
I'm going to experiment with two 5 Wych squads in a Raider, and see how they fare. It has a bit of anti tank from the DC/DL, and the two Blast pistols and the Splinters will all be able to fire if the boat gets caught in combat.
Sounds like a test of skill/slashing impact cult to me - raiders and blast pistols would benefit a lot, and 5-wych squads are pretty much toast if they leave the boat.
grouchoben wrote: Sounds like a test of skill/slashing impact cult to me - raiders and blast pistols would benefit a lot, and 5-wych squads are pretty much toast if they leave the boat.
That would make perfect sense. Problem is, it's looking like pretty much all of my battles for the next few months will be against my friend's Harlequins. I'm not looking to list tailor (much), but I'd be reluctant to take Test of Skill when none of his boats have more than 6 wounds.
Black Heart Kabal
HQ: Archon 60, Huskblade 5, Writ of the Living Muse
Troops: Kabalites x5 with Blaster 55
Troops: Kabalites x10 with Blaster+Dark Lance 110
Transport: Raider 70 with Dark Lance 15
Transport: Venom 60 with Splinter Cannon 10
Fast: x5 Scourges 75 with 4x Haywire 40
Heavy: Ravager 85 with Dark Lances 45
Custom cult: Test of Skill+Slashing Impact
HQ: Succubus 55 with Shardnet+Impaler 10 and Helm of Spite relic (S Drugs)
Troop: X10 Wyches 110 with Shardnet 10 Blast Pistol 5 and 2x Hydra Gauntlets 10 (Move Drugs)
Transport: Raider 70 with Disintegrator 25 Grisly Trophies+Chainsnares 4
Fast: X12 Reavers 344 with 4x Blasters 40 and 4x grav talons 12 (T Drugs)
Fast: X15 Hellions 225 with Agonizer 5 (A Drugs)
Flyer: Voidraven 185 with missiles 0
Opponent:
HQ: Primaris Captain in Gravis
HQ: Primaris Librarian with force sword
HQ: Primaris Lieutenant with storm shield and power sword
Troops: Intercessor squad x5
Troops: Intercessor squad x5
Troops: Infiltrator squad x5
Troops: Infiltrator squad x5
Elites: Aggressors x4 with bolts
Elites: Redemptor Dreadnought with miniguns
Elites: Invictus Warsuit with flamer and bolter
Fast: Inceptor squad x3 with plasma
Fast: Suppressors x3
Fast: land speeder with dakka
Heavy: Repulsor Executioner with the big plasma gun
Heavy: Thunderfire Cannon
Ultramarines tactics, with some special relics and psychic powers I don't exactly remember.
We played the eternal war mission "Retrieval Mission" which gave us one backfield objective to defend and 4 in no man's land, with pairs close to one another on either side. My opponent took the mission specific secondary (bonus points for keeping a larger % of your units alive) and also took Thin the Ranks and Domination. For my secondaries I took Engage on All Fronts, Slay the Warlord, and Repair Teleport Homer.
Our board setup was the minimum size, with several big ruins, and quite a bit of wall terrain - both the smaller ruined sector mechanicus style walls which were our main source of "dense cover" and small pipes and aegis lines which we did as Light and Heavy+Defensible as well as Breachable. No Man's land had 3 ruins in it, providing pretty solid Obscuring coverage, and each deployment zone had a nice ruin in it as well. I got to choose DZ, and chose the one with the ruin much closer to the deployment line as it would allow me to deploy my Reavers and Hellions out of LOS. My opponent set up his army with the infiltrators and warsuit on my left flank pair of objectives, and the big ball o' space marineage on his home objective, not really making use of the ruin in his backfield.
I deployed the reavers and hellions behind the ruin, wracks and kabalites on my home objective, the raider full of wyches ready to hop and get to the infiltrators if I were to get first turn, and the venom with 5 kabs right up on the line as a sacrifice to the invictus suit if my opponent were to get first turn. Grotesques, Cronos, Haemie on the line ready to move in towards the unoccupied objectives.
I win the roll to go first. Hellions move on to the closest objective to me, getting into cover and nicely positioned relative to Dense cover. Grotesques advance up with the haemie party, ready to fire and fade onto the other empty objective. Wyches and Succubus roll up ready to hit the infiltrators. I position my Raider, Voidraven, Blasters, lances etc so most of them can see both the Executioner and Warsuit, with some of them having Dense Cover in the way of one of the two shots. Priority 1 warsuit, priority 2 executioner. I also void mine the farther squad of infiltrators, killing 2.
I put the reavers, the kabalites, and the hekatrix' darkfire weapons into the warsuit and it goes down, and 4 dark lances and 2 void lances go into the executioner bringing it down to 3 wounds I really felt the lack of Test of Skill on my raider and ravager. Splinter fire, disintegrator, and voidraven missiles wipe the farther Infiltrator squad, leaving just one squad uninjured. Raider charges the infiltrators first, he rolls high so I swing him far around to sit his butt on the objective farther from me. Wyches and Succubus both successfully make the charge against them. Slashing impact hits them for 4, and I go first with the succubus and manage to take out 2 more with her net, so the wyches only have a sergeant to kill and consolidate nicely into a defense line right next to the objective.
End of turn 1 I hold 5/6 objectives, 3 points for Engage on All Fronts, my opponent has a lot to deal with. With 5 grotesques and 15 Hellions on one side and 10 wyches 1 succubus and a raider on the other, my opponent correctly assesses that the latter pair of objectives is a smarter play. He does a stratagem to make the repulsor fight like it's not injured, and another one to put the aggressors into tactical mode so they can move and double shoot. he's already spent some making the captain and librarian into special boys, so I have about twice the Cp he's got at this point since I've literally only spent one on fire and fade and I got a bonus one from soothsayer. Speaking of which I get one from Labyrinthine off his spending so I'm at 14. He moves intercessors, dreadnought, land speeder, HQs (keeping the captain just within 6" of the executioner) and aggressors towards the objectives.
He casts a psychic power that gives him a CP and that's it.
In his shooting phase, the executioner blasts the raider so effectively that it's gone, and my opponent cannot charge it with his aggressors to get on the objective. I'm made of paper like a fox! The TFC kills about half the wyches, and the aggressors first round of shooting way more than wipes the other half. Their second round of shooting goes into the hellions, who have both kinds of good cover from them (+1sv and -1 to hit) so I decide to do the extra +1sv in cover stratagem to try and keep them ticking. Surprisingly it works pretty not bad, I lose 5/15, and then another one from the landspeeder. The dreadnought tries to kill the succubus but she's an american hero and makes most of her invulns, and she's actually behind a ruin so the intercessors mostly can't shoot her, so they try to shoot Reavers who are in rapid fire and it doesn't go great, I lose 2 more reavers. Suppressors try unsuccessfully to shoot the plane. In my morale phase I spend 2 to not roll with the reavers as they're just at half strength, and the hellions roll a 1.
My turn 2, I get 15 primary points for holding my 4 objectives to my opponent's 2 - turns out I didn't even need the succubus to survive, she was just awesome. Theme for this turn is "gotta get those aggressors." I get the haemonculus crew comfy on their objectives, with the cronos and haemie sitting on the close one, and the grots sitting on the far one - I just leave the haemie's aura with them because there are few weapons it matters against for them to be t6. Mandrakes drop down way in the far corner of my opponent's board, just behind a ruin, and go "hey, it cool if we fix this teleport homer back here?"
The voidraven just styles on the repulsor executioner, so all the other dark lances and blasters just go into first the land speeder who is actually on the objective then the aggressors, who are 2+sv right now thanks to cover so my splinter stuff isn't gonna do gak. After some pretty poor rolling, they go down to just massive anti-tank fire. Hellions charge intercessors, and I give up a lot of my Slashing Impact rolls to avoid a heroic intervention from the characters so I only deal 1mw. I give the hellions hyperstimm - they're not gonna survive to the end of the battle round so let's go out with a bang. They deal 4 unsaved wounds and leave one dude, and I consolidate into the lieutenant and librarian in order to wrap him, and they kill half my remaining poor hellions.
So at the end of the turn, I have mandrakes in the backfield doing a secondary and getting me full table quarters again for 3 more, I have 4 objectives held fairly annoyingly (one with a succubus behind Obscuring terrain and next to Reaver bikes, one with grotesques, one with all my kabalite stuff, and one with a cronos and haemonculus). I do realize I forgot to bring my haywire scourges in like a dumbass - I mean, tactically reserved them because I didn't think they could kill the dreadnought alone, of course.
My opponent scores 3 points for primary, bringing him up to 6 total with 3 points so far from Thin their Ranks. He figures the librarian, sergeant and lieutenant can handle the last 5 hellions so he goes around those with the captain, intercessors and dreadnought to finally get onto a second objective. He brings on the incursors into his own backfield to try and shoot the Mandrakes, but even with blast two survive, and only one runs from morale, so I will score 5 for repair homer simpson. He uses most of his firepower to wipe the reavers, then the TFC sadly takes out my heroic succubus from downtown. Suppressors manage to deal 2w to the flyer finally, earning a joking "good effort participation badge" from my opponent. In the assault phase, my opponent grumbles a bit that me getting to go first with the hellions is kind of a "gotcha" so I let him go first with the librarian, who kills 3/5 of the remaining hellions. I kill the last intercessor with them to keep him from having a second obsec unit, and then they die to the lieutenant.
Turn 3, I get 15 from primary, 5 from my mandrake fixing beloved cartoon icon homer simpson, and I'm already basically set to score another 3 from engage on all fronts, don't even need to move anything. I have my single mandrake do the action again just to force my opponent to kill him. My venom full of kabalites dutifully moves up to take its turn being the sacrificial lamb on the Bloodbath Objective, and I drop scourges right in the middle of most of my kabalite stuff to kill the dreadnought, even though leaving the TFC brings me great pain. The dreadnought dies to the void lances and the scourges, and I have the cunning idea to kill 3 intercessors so I can target the captain. It takes an embarrassing number of my darkfire weapons to get through those 3 dudes - stupid 2+ armor saves vs splinter weaponry. So the captain lives, taking only one dark lance wound from the ravager that only deals 2 damage with a CP reroll. I'd have needed a 6 to wipe him out so wasn't expecting it. 100% Man Mandrake scores me another 3 points for table quarters.
My opponent finally scores 10 for primaries, and his kill point tally is up to 5 putting his point total at 20 to my 44. Thin their Ranks seems like a very low effort secondary for most armies, but he's really regretting Domination. He's got the Inceptors, TFC, Suppressors, and the three HQs left, so he decides he's not going to win the mission, he just wants to kill as much as he can, so the inceptors leave John Mandraclane to win the game single handedly in the backfield. The Inceptors kill the venom, which explodes but nobody cares, and the HQs stupid pistols and fingerguns and rifles kill 3/5 of the kabalites. The TFC and suppressors take most of the wounds off the Ravager.
My turn 4, 15 from primary, 5 from teleport homer, the birds are out of stuff in LOS to haywire so they just pony up to the Death Objective along with the raider full of kabalites. All my stupid crazy anti tank weapons shoot at the space marine HQs and I kill the captain (6 points) and librarian but the lieutenant isn't dead thanks to a storm shield he's got. The inceptors did get within 6" but they were still the closest models to all my stuff.
Space marines score 10 again, the inceptors blow up the ravager, the tfc and lieutenant kill the scourges, and the suppressors and lieutenant in melee deal 4 wounds to the raider.
Turn 5, I max out the table quarters objective and the teleport homer objective and get another 15 from primary, fall back from the lieutenant and leave him alive to duel with my archon. The plane and ossefactor kill a couple of inceptors.
Opponent's turn 5, he scores 10 from primary, the suppressors, inceptor and TFC kill the raider for 1 more kill point, and he gets a total of 41pts. We have a laugh about how he doesn't get 10pts for paint because his miniatures aren't based but mine have some that weren't done with GW paints so 0pts for both sides there. The archon and lieutenant dont manage to kill one another. Final score is 41 to 96, dark eldar win.
TlDR: It went good. I was able to max out Engage on All Fronts and Repair Teleport Homer, but the latter was mostly because my opponent gave up on playing to the mission after turn 3 and didn't devote one of his three remaining combat units to wiping one stupid mandrake who was doing that objective behind a building in his backfield.
Impressions: Turn 1 felt pretty impactful, but more impactful was being able to have the movement to actually get the feth on objectives turn 1 and the durability to stay there. Mostly, my going first just resulted in his invictor and infiltrators being dead skeletons instead of getting to rampage into my stuff for free, and my wyches and succubus getting to move on to their objectives via charge moves. If my opponent hadn't had a bunch of stuff starting in no man's land, I don't feel like winning the turn 1 roll would have been of paramount significance.
I felt like the game was a good amount less lethal than before, mostly on the back of terrain rules (it felt like almost everything was in cover all the time and there was a LOT of -1 to hit) and a good chunk of my army at least (not so much my opponents') doing absolutely nothing the whole game but sitting on objectives twiddling their spiritleech tentacles. I made the choice to score points rahter than kill more stuff 3-4 times during the game, which is a big improvement.
Weapon range just..didn't matter. Basically everything was in range all the time. They could basically remove it as a stat at this board size. Only LOS block terrain prevented stuff from shooting.
That's really interesting, thanks.
Did any of your unit choices really stand out, for better or worse?
I'm looking to get 6 Grots into my list (mainly cos I spent all this time building and converting them), but I'm determined to find points for Rakarth to buff their strength to 6.
harlokin wrote: That's really interesting, thanks.
Did any of your unit choices really stand out, for better or worse?
I'm looking to get 6 Grots into my list (mainly cos I spent all this time building and converting them), but I'm determined to find points for Rakarth to buff their strength to 6.
I have to say, I think Hellions are kinda...not terrible now? two things I think really helped them out, first is obscuring terrain, god was it nice to feel like they werent' just instantly targetable, and Obscuring being an infinite pillar was great for these tall bois, and second was morale. The big problem with hellions was really wanting them to be Red Grief or Test of Skill, but feeling absolutely stupid for doing anything but Cursed Blade on them because they're ld7 and really benefit from being a big unit. INFANTRY keyword, Fly, and a rule that still lets them fall back and do what they really want to do (their shooting is kinda just secondary) makes them actually kind of good.
The ideal "high impact" unit in 9th ed IMO is a unit that can jump out of hiding, get itself on an objective, kill what's on it, and survive or make the task of killing it obnoxious. Hellions can get 3+ saves with the lurk in the shadows strat, they can always be -1 either from dense cover or Lightning reactions, and they have enough punch to usually kill what they want to get in on.
I still felt like Reavers were a little too expensive for what they do and care a little too much about their shooting to be proper bludgeon units. Maybe that was just me running them with Blasters and I need to not do that in future, I don't know.
The mandrakes...holy gak. The combination of a cheap unit that has built-in deep strike, Obscuring terrain, and the fact that you can have both Table Quarters objective AND the action that forces your opponent to go get the unit that's doing it is SO STRONG. Nobody should leave home without at least 2 5-mans of mandrakes IMO, because so many opponents are going to build into the "big brick you can't kill that's gonna go roll into the center of the board and be tough". 9th is a game of step 1, spoil your opponent's objectives, step 2, make sure it's as annoying/inefficient as possible to spoil your objectives. 5-man mandrakes show up, they score you 1-2 points immediately by grabbing a table quarter, and then they go "oOOOoooHHh, I'm fixing the teleporter, are you going to turn around your units and kill little old me with my invulnerable save, or am I going to score 5 points next turn?"
Take 2 units so you can pull that gak turn 2 and turn 3 when every opponent is going to be trying to execute their 'spend all the CPs score all the points kill all the things' battle plan and REALLY REALLY doesn't want to divert resources to kill 5 stupid little fethers in their back corners.
Mandrakes have been good for ages.....we REALLY need a new sculpt in plastic. I have a second box of them, but I'm not sure I can face trying to assemble and paint them, finecast is so horrible to work with.....metal ones go for about £25 per model on ebay
Mandrakes have been good for ages.....we REALLY need a new sculpt in plastic. I have a second box of them, but I'm not sure I can face trying to assemble and paint them, finecast is so horrible to work with.....metal ones go for about £25 per model on ebay
I actually use Idoneth Reavers for my mandrakes. The bow+knife guys.
I do have a custom ebay search notification for "40k elder" which has successfully snagged me more than a few 5th ed metal models from folks who didn't really know what they had or just misspelled it and so got way lower traffic.
That's great to hear that you're enjoying Hellions, they're one of my top units that I want to love but just could never make them work. It sounds like they themselves didn't get any better but the game around them has become a friendlier place for them to exist. I'm looking forward to trying them out in my next games.
Mandrakes have always been one of my top tactical units of 8th. They tick the boxes of being able to appear where you need them, shooting mostly so not reliant on not failing charges, ability to dish out MW, and reasonably tanky for their points thanks to invuln and -1 to hit. I don't think there was ever a game of 8th that I regretted fielding them and I don't think that will change in 9th.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: That's great to hear that you're enjoying Hellions, they're one of my top units that I want to love but just could never make them work. It sounds like they themselves didn't get any better but the game around them has become a friendlier place for them to exist. I'm looking forward to trying them out in my next games.
Mandrakes have always been one of my top tactical units of 8th. They tick the boxes of being able to appear where you need them, shooting mostly so not reliant on not failing charges, ability to dish out MW, and reasonably tanky for their points thanks to invuln and -1 to hit. I don't think there was ever a game of 8th that I regretted fielding them and I don't think that will change in 9th.
I think the big key with them is "if you can make them significantly less convenient to target by giving up their shooting, do so". Their shooting is solid, yes, but in 9th you absolutely NEED to have designated scorers in your list, if you run a list that is just killers vs killers and designated scorers, IMO the second list is going to win most of the time unless they have not made their scorers tough enough.
Tough for their points INFANTRY keyword units that can hold objectives and perform actions are going to be key to include. I liked Axe Wraithblades going into this game, and I REALLY like them now, for example. I also think that's the big thing grots have over talos, but I also think Drukhari are better suited going for the Teleport Homer rather than going for the Hold the Center action secondary.
I took 20 Hellions and mine did dog crap lol, vs 3+ army and no AP they couldn't do anything about the save roles, 19 wounds and 15 saves (yes 2 above average but thats within normal still). I had to fight twice to wipe the unit even with Str5 +1atks.
Amishprn86 wrote: I took 20 Hellions and mine did dog crap lol, vs 3+ army and no AP they couldn't do anything about the save roles, 19 wounds and 15 saves (yes 2 above average but thats within normal still). I had to fight twice to wipe the unit even with Str5 +1atks.
I think with their actual attacks mine only killed like 2 models. Slashing did a lot of the work.
At the risk of seeming foolish, I think I'm going to give my Cronos a try.
I only have 3 Taloi, so I'm not too desperate for Heavy slots in my Coven detachment, and on the other hand the re-roll 1s to wound on any of my close combat (Wyches, Mandrakes, Grots, Taloi) stuff in range seems like it could be worth it.
harlokin wrote: At the risk of seeming foolish, I think I'm going to give my Cronos a try.
I only have 3 Taloi, so I'm not too desperate for Heavy slots in my Coven detachment, and on the other hand the re-roll 1s to wound on any of my close combat (Wyches, Mandrakes, Grots, Taloi) stuff in range seems like it could be worth it.
I can't help you, he literally did nothing all game for me except move once in my movement phase, and then he just scored primary points all game long.
so, from a winning the game standpoint: Highly Effective!
harlokin wrote: At the risk of seeming foolish, I think I'm going to give my Cronos a try.
I only have 3 Taloi, so I'm not too desperate for Heavy slots in my Coven detachment, and on the other hand the re-roll 1s to wound on any of my close combat (Wyches, Mandrakes, Grots, Taloi) stuff in range seems like it could be worth it.
I can't help you, he literally did nothing all game for me except move once in my movement phase, and then he just scored primary points all game long.
so, from a winning the game standpoint: Highly Effective!
I sometimes literally forget the cronos is an optional unit for us
He's such a piece of crap next to the talos.
Indeed, it seems to lack any meaningful roll in the army. It should be a buff/fire support but we don't really have many static units that it could support.
Perhaps they should change it to an anti psyker type unit. At least it would have a roll.
That being said, I always wish they would release a Kabalite heavy support unit and Kabalite close combat unit. Just for the sake of symmetry. The Cronos would be able to support them...maybe.
It used to give out extra Pain Tokens. Spirit Probe gave a Pain token to itself for ANY model killed with it (not just a full unit, so if it killed a full unit it got 2 Pain Tokens), then the Spirit Probe kills in melee you can then gain a Pain token and give it to any DE unit within 12".
PFP chart was only 3 back then
1) FnP (which was a 5+++ not a 6+++)
2) Furious Charge (+1 to Int and Str)
3) Fearless (Ignore Battleshock tests)
But you did not start with any Pain Tokens, so having a unit that can get it themselves and giving them out was good. Note: All Coven units started with 1 Pain Token, and characters "joined" units, so they could give Pain tokens to units, a Haemonculus joining a Grot unit started the game with 2 Pain tokens, characters could also join MC units. Urien used to started with 1 himself and started with D3 tokens to give to any D3 Coven units.
So he did have a purpose, they mad his Pain tokens rules ito Re-roll wounds wound basically.
I liked Cronos with technomancers in 8th, if you could get them in range of both their weapons then they had some potential. To my knowledge the new blast rules will only effect their non-autohit weapon correct?
Overall do we thing the Cronos has a better place in 9th? At firs glance it can only fire one of its weapons in CC and can't fire the other even if it falls back like it did in 8th. I didn't see how many points it went up, does it have a place in 9th lists? I really want to use mine.
With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.
They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.
Oaka wrote: With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.
They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.
I've heard peeps mentioning them of late, and it would be interesting to hear how they get on for you.
For me, the 10 points more that Grots cost seems worth it for a 4++, the Infantry keyword, WS 3+ (2+ with PFP), Mortal Wound potential, and Power From Pain.
Before the rule of three when using the index in 8th I used to run 6 individual clawed fiends to zone out most of the table and to block other enemy none fly units between buildings etc (none infantry) and they were really useful in that role. I can believe them being useful for similar things in 9th especially for taking actions.
They shouldn't be looked at in comparison to grotesques ever. Grots are min 3 and fulfill an entirely different role. Your not using them out in no mans land to complete simple actions. A better comparison is with wracks, who now cost 60 points for 5 t4 wounds as opposed to 35 for 4 t5 wounds that move faster and are easier to hide. Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the coven options are just that, coven options. Clawed fiends basically give cult forces 4 (including beastmaster) lower cost units that can be used to fulfill secondaries you don't want other resources to be wasting time with.
I still wish the beastmaster had not been nerfed into only rerolling 1's, because prior to that nerfing I used to field one larger unit sometimes, since it hit quite hard. The other nice thing about the beast pack units is them not taking up slots which makes them much easier to justify from a patrol where slots are more critical if using a mixed RSR detachment.
I like them and as I am determined to play a cult only army successful in this edition at least a few times I can see multiple avenues for them that will make the army function properly.
Overall I am feeling a bit better about the points hike. I new the army needed to be more expensive and some of them are more annoying then I expected but 9th seems to play much differently. So certain units need to be looked at and revisited with fresh eyes and not compared to their performance in 8th.
EDIT I also should have shouted out the other two beasts. Razorwing flocks allow for a single 4 wound unit at 14pts, while min 2 khymera at 24pts makes them pretty insanely cheap as well. While the khymera probably are not worth running as minimums the flocks are pretty hilarious being movement 12 with fly. They might be the cheapest unit in the game now.
Oaka wrote: With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.
They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.
You need a BM, so its not cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Before the rule of three when using the index in 8th I used to run 6 individual clawed fiends to zone out most of the table and to block other enemy none fly units between buildings etc (none infantry) and they were really useful in that role. I can believe them being useful for similar things in 9th especially for taking actions.
They shouldn't be looked at in comparison to grotesques ever. Grots are min 3 and fulfill an entirely different role. Your not using them out in no mans land to complete simple actions. A better comparison is with wracks, who now cost 60 points for 5 t4 wounds as opposed to 35 for 4 t5 wounds that move faster and are easier to hide. Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the coven options are just that, coven options. Clawed fiends basically give cult forces 4 (including beastmaster) lower cost units that can be used to fulfill secondaries you don't want other resources to be wasting time with.
I still wish the beastmaster had not been nerfed into only rerolling 1's, because prior to that nerfing I used to field one larger unit sometimes, since it hit quite hard. The other nice thing about the beast pack units is them not taking up slots which makes them much easier to justify from a patrol where slots are more critical if using a mixed RSR detachment.
I like them and as I am determined to play a cult only army successful in this edition at least a few times I can see multiple avenues for them that will make the army function properly.
Overall I am feeling a bit better about the points hike. I new the army needed to be more expensive and some of them are more annoying then I expected but 9th seems to play much differently. So certain units need to be looked at and revisited with fresh eyes and not compared to their performance in 8th.
EDIT I also should have shouted out the other two beasts. Razorwing flocks allow for a single 4 wound unit at 14pts, while min 2 khymera at 24pts makes them pretty insanely cheap as well. While the khymera probably are not worth running as minimums the flocks are pretty hilarious being movement 12 with fly. They might be the cheapest unit in the game now.
I just wish Beasts went back to 5th, BM being 12pts, super cheap and are int he unit of Beasts. Beasts were way too costly in 8th and they just went up in 9th, as they are now in 9th they are pointless.
A Lone BM is fine, with 12" move and Fly, a character and a Infantry, you can get a lot of secondary points with it for cheap.
Oaka wrote: With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.
They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.
You need a BM, so its not cheaper.
Depends how your using the units though. A 45 point 12" move model with fly and character protection is also pretty good for using to get secondaries.
Sure you need one for the beastpack options, but that doesn't make it worthless in of itself.
Oaka wrote: With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.
They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.
You need a BM, so its not cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Before the rule of three when using the index in 8th I used to run 6 individual clawed fiends to zone out most of the table and to block other enemy none fly units between buildings etc (none infantry) and they were really useful in that role. I can believe them being useful for similar things in 9th especially for taking actions.
They shouldn't be looked at in comparison to grotesques ever. Grots are min 3 and fulfill an entirely different role. Your not using them out in no mans land to complete simple actions. A better comparison is with wracks, who now cost 60 points for 5 t4 wounds as opposed to 35 for 4 t5 wounds that move faster and are easier to hide. Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the coven options are just that, coven options. Clawed fiends basically give cult forces 4 (including beastmaster) lower cost units that can be used to fulfill secondaries you don't want other resources to be wasting time with.
I still wish the beastmaster had not been nerfed into only rerolling 1's, because prior to that nerfing I used to field one larger unit sometimes, since it hit quite hard. The other nice thing about the beast pack units is them not taking up slots which makes them much easier to justify from a patrol where slots are more critical if using a mixed RSR detachment.
I like them and as I am determined to play a cult only army successful in this edition at least a few times I can see multiple avenues for them that will make the army function properly.
Overall I am feeling a bit better about the points hike. I new the army needed to be more expensive and some of them are more annoying then I expected but 9th seems to play much differently. So certain units need to be looked at and revisited with fresh eyes and not compared to their performance in 8th.
EDIT I also should have shouted out the other two beasts. Razorwing flocks allow for a single 4 wound unit at 14pts, while min 2 khymera at 24pts makes them pretty insanely cheap as well. While the khymera probably are not worth running as minimums the flocks are pretty hilarious being movement 12 with fly. They might be the cheapest unit in the game now.
I just wish Beasts went back to 5th, BM being 12pts, super cheap and are int he unit of Beasts. Beasts were way too costly in 8th and they just went up in 9th, as they are now in 9th they are pointless.
A Lone BM is fine, with 12" move and Fly, a character and a Infantry, you can get a lot of secondary points with it for cheap.
Sure no argument there in regard to what they once were but that is irrelevant at present, but if you agree that a BM is useful on it's own you can't really be using it as a strike against the other options from the pack can you. Again, a 14pt flock or a 35 point fiend open up even more doors for secondaries. Unless you like sacrificing nearly 100 point transports plus possible occupants to secondaries like table quarters or teleport homer repair.
Oaka wrote: With missions no longer giving VPs for each unit destroyed, I've been looking at the benefits of running units of solo Clawed Fiends. 10 points cheaper than a Grotesque, and immune to morale by being a single model. The rule that kicks into effect when they take wounds should also happen more regularly. With 10" movement, they should be able to grab objectives rather quickly, and make easy teleport homers for the Yncarne.
They're not quite as durable for the role as individual Sslyth, which are also infantry and can perform actions on objectives, but I'm thinking having six total units of these individual models could be a better choice for objectives than 5-man troops for a fraction of the points cost.
You need a BM, so its not cheaper.
Depends how your using the units though. A 45 point 12" move model with fly and character protection is also pretty good for using to get secondaries.
Sure you need one for the beastpack options, but that doesn't make it worthless in of itself.
If you are wanting a BM to go run off solo and the Clawed fiend to do the same, that is fine. I'm saying its not cheaper than Grots tho b.c you still need a BM for each solo Clawed fiend. Also taking 3 characters on top of the 3 HQ's we are taking means people will go for Assassination secondary, which give them VP's very easily, its not like a BM is hard to kill.
Amishprn86 wrote: If you are wanting a BM to go run off solo and the Clawed fiend to do the same, that is fine. I'm saying its not cheaper than Grots tho b.c you still need a BM for each solo Clawed fiend. Also taking 3 characters on top of the 3 HQ's we are taking means people will go for Assassination secondary, which give them VP's very easily, its not like a BM is hard to kill.
No actually you clearly stated incorrectly that a BM was required for each pack.
Your also implying again that the BM has no value which is outright false.
A clawed fiend is 35 ppm. Period.
It's a bogus trick to argue the BM inflates the beasts base cost. That's not how it works because I still get the BM. Unless you also want to claim a grot is +26.7 points per model in a min 3 squad do to the Haemi. It's not a fair argument.
Well you cannot take them without a BM, if you wanted the BM then its not a tax as i said, if you don't want the BM then it is a tax and the Beasts are a higher cost to take.
You can pretend there isn't a 45pt tax, but there is.
Red Corsair wrote:I also should have shouted out the other two beasts. Razorwing flocks allow for a single 4 wound unit at 14pts, while min 2 khymera at 24pts makes them pretty insanely cheap as well. While the khymera probably are not worth running as minimums the flocks are pretty hilarious being movement 12 with fly. They might be the cheapest unit in the game now.
Red Corsair wrote:Again, a 14pt flock or a 35 point fiend open up even more doors for secondaries. Unless you like sacrificing nearly 100 point transports plus possible occupants to secondaries like table quarters or teleport homer repair.
I like the idea of the 14pt flock just denying enemy scoring for a turn. I imagine a lot of armies will be relying on a single transport getting to an objective, but you can respond with a flock moving there (good reason to go second).
BEAST keyword units cannot perform any action in the eternal war secondary list. Just keep that in mind. They can score Linebreaker/Engage on All Fronts but that secondary is the only thing solo beasts can do. Personally, if something lacks Infantry, that disqualifies it in my eyes from performing the role of micro-unit secondary do-er.
Also, MSU isn't entirely unpunishable. There is Attrition, an extremely easy 4 points if you play super MSU that is basically not competing with anything in its secondary slot. Individual Sslyth especially in Black Heart are a better option IMO - 3W, but with a 5++ and a 6+FNP, smaller, only 2" less movement, and 14 points less.
Had my second practical test run of Drukhari this weekend
Black Heart Kabal
HQ: Archon 60, Huskblade 5, Writ of the Living Muse
Troops: Kabalites x5 with Blaster 55
Troops: Kabalites x10 with Blaster+Dark Lance 110
Transport: Raider 70 with Dark Lance 15
Transport: Venom 60 with Splinter Cannon 10
Fast: x5 Scourges 75 with 4x Haywire 40
Heavy: Ravager 85 with Dark Lances 45
Elites: Mandrakes x5 85
Custom cult: Test of Skill+Slashing Impact
HQ: Succubus 55 with Shardnet+Impaler 10 and Helm of Spite relic (S Drugs)
Troop: X10 Wyches 110 with Shardnet 10 Blast Pistol 5 and 2x Hydra Gauntlets 10 (Move Drugs)
Transport: Raider 70 with Disintegrator 25 Grisly Trophies+Chainsnares 4
Fast: X10 Reavers 200 with 3x Blasters 30 and 3x grav talons 9 (T Drugs)
Fast: X15 Hellions 225 with Agonizer 5 (A Drugs)
Flyer: Voidraven 185 with missiles 0
Took a slightly modified version of the same list (Dropped 2 bikes to get down to 10 below the blast threshold and take 2x5 squads of mandrakes instead of 1x7) and played against
Alpha Legion Battalion
Jump Sorceror (Death Hex, Warptime)
Winged Daemon Prince (Diabolical Strength)
5x CSM with Reaper Chaincannon+Combibolter
5x CSM with Reaper Chaincannon+Combibolter
5x CSM with Reaper Chaincannon+Combibolter
5x Chosen with several plasma guns
Iron warriors Battalion (Warp Pack specialist detachment that gives the +2 movement aura trait)
Discolord
Discolord
Master of Possession
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
3x Obliterators
Maulerfiend
Khorne Blood Slaughterer
Venomcrawler
We played the mission with long edge deployment and four objectives, 1 in each deployment zone and 2 on the centerline. Secondaries turn out not to matter, but I took the obvious vehicle killing one and Linebreaker+Homer. We were a little light on terrain, seeing as we were playing at my house and mostly just had vehicle models that made appropriate terrain pieces, so we just had a single piece of Obscuring terrain (a void shield generator) that we stuck in the center. If the recommended number of terrain elements is 24 on a min-size table, we had 16 (not counting each individual tiny piece, but counting for example a crashed vehicle and a small wall together as a single 'element'). Seeing as this was the case we ruled all terrain Light+Dense Cover to make it as impactful as possible.
We started the game off with what turned out to be a mistake - my opponent thought his Alpha Legion move had to happen before we knew who went first, because it was during deployment. Reading the rule and the mission rule I'm pretty sure he just spends the CP during deployment, and he could theoretically choose not to move after knowing he wasn't going first. But he moved 5 CSMs up to the objective on the right flank, and created a pretty easy 6" charge for my Wyches in their raider seeing as I went first.
So the Grots advance and get a 6 and make it on to the objective without having to Fire and Fade, the wyches and succubus charge the 5 CSMs and wipe them off the other objective, and all the antitank firepower goes into killing the Blood Slaughterer who is the only daemon engine not behind -1 to hit terrain. I realize right at the end I haven't fired the plane, and it shoots one of the Lords Discordant for a total of 7/12 hit points.
Opponent's turn, he shoots and charges the wyches and succubus with two mostly undamaged cultist squads, after inadvisably letting the succubus soak a bunch of autogun and flamer fire because one of the cultist squads was allowed to target her. He rolls max on the obliterators (S9 AP-3 D3) and shoots them at the voidraven dealing 7 damage, I Agents of Vect the double-shoot stratagem. A daemon prince and both discolords charge the Grotesques who are also death hexed so they're basically done, and the Maulerfiend warptimes into the Hellions.
In the big game-ending mistake, my opponent decides to play for objectives and picks the cultist squad to go first, wiping out the wyches and leaving the succubus surrounded by ~18 obsec cultists right on the objective. I interrupt with the Grotesques, use Torturer's Craft, and roll well against the damaged discolord, who rolls very poorly on his saves, loses 6 wounds and dies. To add insult to injury the second discolord and daemon prince don't even manage to wipe the whole Grotesque squad even with no invuln thanks to some extremely inconvenient PFP rolls and damage roll timings where every time he rolled a "3" for one of his D3 damage weapons, it would finish off a guy with a single wound left. The Maulerfiend kills 6/15 hellions and takes 8 damage in return. Hellions lose a single dude to morale.
My turn, I score 5 for primary and have scored another 5 for bring it down. Bikes move into the enemy DZ and a unit of mandrakes also comes down to perform Repair Teleport Homer. The one grotesque falls back, and all the kabal stuff+Deep striking scourges+the flyer and remaining coven stuff kill the DP and Discolord. The bikes shoot and charge the obliterators and kill them, and the hellions charge back in with Hyperstimm Backlash on and kill the maulerfiend. We shake there, since my opponent just has a single daemon engine left by his turn 2 and is pretty much out of stuff that kills stuff.
Fewer useful lessons overall this game because scoring wasn't so much an important part of it. I still think morale effects our units less than we really realize at this point, and you can get a lot of mileage out of larger squads, blast vulnerability aside. Terrain didn't hardly do anything this game, it just dictated what I had to target turn 1 but by turn 2 we were basically on top of each other in the center of the board so I could pretty easily just avoid shooting across any terrain. The Fight First trait might be the best one for the succubus at this point, having that instead of Precision Blows would have really helped, if you're running custom cult definitely consider that one.
Mostly what this showed me is: Games of 9th ed can still very much end turn 2 like games of 8th did and leave everyone disappointed.
Do you think Rakarth would be worth it over a regular Haemonculus? His strength buff is great on Grots, and he is hard to kill, but his offensive output is meh, and he cant get a Vexator mask.
Do you think Rakarth would be worth it over a regular Haemonculus? His strength buff is great on Grots, and he is hard to kill, but his offensive output is meh, and he cant get a Vexator mask.
I used the Writ and the Helm of Spite, so didn't use a Vexator in the first place. just ran a completely barebones Haemonculus with Soothsayer.
100% vexator is better than +1s aura IMO. the difficulty of killing them is kind of irrelevant, if your HQ is taking fire you're probably winning out on the exchange anyway. In the situation i ended up in, it didn't matter, because it was Grotesques vs 3 nasty enemies, so if any of them had fought first the grots impact would have been pretty much nullified, but that's a huge deterrent to elite enemy units charging in to your tank squad.
EC whip + Vexator Haemonculus is best haemonculus.
Amishprn86 wrote: If i'm going Lance i'll just take Reapers, Dis Cannons are still too good not to take IMO, especially with more marines than ever going to the table.
Seconded.
Especially with lots of Intercessors with 2W who can be killed instantly.
I don't see the purpose with lances at the moment. Dis cannons outperform them completely, and some blasters can still be added to get S8 shots. Talos can take haywire also. So, no lances at the moment should stay home.
Blackie wrote: I don't see the purpose with lances at the moment. Dis cannons outperform them completely, and some blasters can still be added to get S8 shots. Talos can take haywire also. So, no lances at the moment should stay home.
I don't take blasters anymore. ToS BP wyches are so much better IMO, and a ToS Reaper can be effective as well, wound on 2+ vs T7.
Blackie wrote: I don't see the purpose with lances at the moment. Dis cannons outperform them completely, and some blasters can still be added to get S8 shots. Talos can take haywire also. So, no lances at the moment should stay home.
This was a key point for me in 8th. I can already get the Dark Lance statline in the form of a Blaster, but I can't get the Disintegrator statline anywhere other than vehicles.
The issue I had with blasters is anything with them (barring maybe reavers) tends to die super fast. Light infantry like geq die super fast now. Unless it has good toughness or at least a 3+ armor or good inv save then it's a waste. Blasters also cost a lot for what they are and have a stupidly short range. It's a shame lots of weapons in our list just feel so bad. I usually prefer dissies because it's somewhat limited in what you can take it on, it has good range, is the only ranged anti infantry weapon effective at a range greater than 18" (meaning it isn't in the enemy's guns), it can handle marines and has a strength and armor piercing value that could even make it ok vs vehicles (sometimes).
All that said I don't know the rules of 9th and have not prepared for such (our 8th ed thread is dead right?). If you have the reading material needed I'd be grateful. At the same time corona has made my care for getting models and books go away almost completely. It's a shame because I want to play.
flamingkillamajig wrote: The issue I had with blasters is anything with them (barring maybe reavers) tends to die super fast. Light infantry like geq die super fast now. Unless it has good toughness or at least a 3+ armor or good inv save then it's a waste. Blasters also cost a lot for what they are and have a stupidly short range. It's a shame lots of weapons in our list just feel so bad. I usually prefer dissies because it's somewhat limited in what you can take it on, it has good range, is the only ranged anti infantry weapon effective at a range greater than 18" (meaning it isn't in the enemy's guns), it can handle marines and has a strength and armor piercing value that could even make it ok vs vehicles (sometimes).
All that said I don't know the rules of 9th and have not prepared for such (our 8th ed thread is dead right?). If you have the reading material needed I'd be grateful. At the same time corona has made my care for getting models and books go away almost completely. It's a shame because I want to play.
I think a blaster is still generally warranted on any kabalite squad (especially now that the points gap between shredders and blasters has closed by 4) because it lends them credible threat to armored opponents. I also still like it on Reavers over heat lances - 5pts more expensive, yes, but wounds on 3s vs wounds on 5s is well worth it IMO.
I'm definitely still going haywire blasters over blasters on my scourge squad, the extra range is very nice and it makes them 20pts cheaper as a squad.
Blast pistols are down at 5 points, which in my eyes makes them pretty much an autoinclude on any character I'm going to have anywhere near the enemy. 5pts for a bs2 blaster shot? Absolutely.
I'm not willingly taking any lances on anything, I think disintegrators are still better at 20pts. I've even gone for the dark scythes on my voidraven now just on the off chance somebody hands me a 6-man meq squad to get auto-6 shots on.
Blackie wrote: I don't see the purpose with lances at the moment. Dis cannons outperform them completely, and some blasters can still be added to get S8 shots. Talos can take haywire also. So, no lances at the moment should stay home.
This was a key point for me in 8th. I can already get the Dark Lance statline in the form of a Blaster, but I can't get the Disintegrator statline anywhere other than vehicles.
Yeah me too. Never used lances in 8th, only dissies.
Blackie wrote: I don't see the purpose with lances at the moment. Dis cannons outperform them completely, and some blasters can still be added to get S8 shots. Talos can take haywire also. So, no lances at the moment should stay home.
I don't take blasters anymore. ToS BP wyches are so much better IMO, and a ToS Reaper can be effective as well, wound on 2+ vs T7.
Blast pistols on wyches are the new blasters on kabalites
the_scotsman wrote: Well, as long as you're OK with paying the extra 10pts for the privilege of having wyches over kabs.
They both are 60pts for 5 models and BP/Blaster, Blasters are 15pts, BP are 5pts. The real difference is, Kabals you can shoot from 18' where wyches you need to be close.
Based on this discussion, I'm regretting putting triple Dark lances on my 3 Ravagers. The last time I played Dark Eldar was at the hight of 5th edition Parking Lot spam. I needed all the Dark Light weaponry I could take.
I do run 4 Raiders with Disintegrator Cannons however.
I think the Dark lances may prove a bit better than last edition however considering Vehicles got a considerable boost and (correct me if I'm wrong) are slightly cheaper.
I know this is a lot of people's primary army, but I don't think we should count on our Troops maintaining their current points value. There's no way Kabalites are worth 9 points.
the_scotsman wrote: Well, as long as you're OK with paying the extra 10pts for the privilege of having wyches over kabs.
They both are 60pts for 5 models and BP/Blaster, Blasters are 15pts, BP are 5pts. The real difference is, Kabals you can shoot from 18' where wyches you need to be close.
Yup. Kabalites have the range advantage, whereas Wyches can still fire when their boat gets caught in engagement range, and if it comes to close combat Wyches are considerably more effective and survivable than Kabalites.
harlokin wrote: What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?
It's difficult.
On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.
However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.
Is there any way where I can se the points before and after 9th edition?
I have the codex, I have ordered the new rules and new points but they have not arived yet. But that stil means I am sitting comparing points manualy. Somebody on the internett must have done so already.
Niiai wrote: Is there any way where I can se the points before and after 9th edition?
I have the codex, I have ordered the new rules and new points but they have not arived yet. But that stil means I am sitting comparing points manualy. Somebody on the internett must have done so already.
harlokin wrote: What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?
I've played 6 games so far, Venoms are IMO not worth it anymore, Raiders are still fine. But in general i'm not taking much of any transports.
B.c negatives are now capped at -1, its actually more common for players to move heavy, advance with assault, etc.. also with new terrain rules it also more common to get -1 to hits here and there (basically all Dense cover and there is a lot of it). So the -1 on Venoms isn't as good anymore and Raiders now has the ability to get it time to time, given raiders also already where toughness even without the -1, they are even better now.
Honestly the venom should have gone up 5pts, but the Splinter cannon should not have, paying 75pts for a Venom when Starweavers are 80 and a Raider is only 10pts more for something better just sucks.
If you need range anti-infantry honestly venoms are bad at that too, 1 venom within Rapid fire range and 5 kabals within range is 20 shots, that only kills 4.4 guardsmen, that means 120pts kills 20pts of guys, you need over 220pts to just kill 50pts of throw away units. If you are FS with re-roll 1's, then your 2 venoms with 5 kabals will on average kill 1x10 guardsmen, but just kills them, this is also NOT taking into account cover with -1 to be hit, sure you ignore the +1sv but not the -1 to hit.
Note that 2 raiders with 5 kabals each will kill 2 less Guardsmen, but nearly doubles the damage against marines and better vs vehicles. Yes it cost 20pts more in total, but it is also more survivable and if you live for 1 more turn the damage is now more than Venoms. Or if they have to pour in more damage to it means less things over all dies.
I;m actually only taking 1 or 2 Kabal units at the most now and they are just on foot. Only so i can have 2-3 Ravagers, if i take 3 I also taking a Reaper.
Thanks for the replies, I guess I'm ging to get steamrolled a lot when play resumes ; my friends have Harlequins, DG, 1KS, and Custodes..... all of which did at least ok in the points shakeup.
I'm likely to be playing against the Quins a few times initially, has anybody got any tips to try and make a good showing? His list is a fairly standard Soaring Spite army with Skyweavers and Starweavers.
Harlequins are for sure one fot he top armies now. They might not kill a lot of you stuff compare to other armies, but they play the missions so extremely efficient you'll lose via points.
Against Custodes you have a good chance still, mostly b.c of we are fast and MSU units, with their low unit count they over kill a lot, force them to over commit and win via points.
I'm actually 0-3 against quins right now, and i play them as a tournament army as well, they just are so good in 9th. Especially when we got a huge points nerf.
Looking at my 8th army and his 8th army, i'm at 2434 points where he is at 2155pts. Thats about 280pts difference for same fire power from old to new, not only that but 9th helped them more than DE. So Quins are in a really strong spot.
Well Coven is goo against Quins, he has to stay away from them, if you put 2 units on 2 objectives it will take him a lot to remove them. If you are supporting those 2 spots even more os. Don't rush to hard to soon and support your units. If he is good he will try to focus down 1 side hard, and use his speed to out move you. So watch for that.
Looking at my 8th army and his 8th army, i'm at 2434 points where he is at 2155pts. Thats about 280pts difference for same fire power from old to new, not only that but 9th helped them more than DE. So Quins are in a really strong spot.
That's really amazing.
Quins also got a hit - Skyweavers and Troupes got more expensive.
Tbh if I was playinf against quins (what a concept! Never once in the years since they came out) I'd play pure wych cult. Maybe with coven.
Make melta, haywire, and weapon upgrades as futile as possible and throw things like Lelith with an impaler vs his characters, hellions vs his vehicles and bikes, and wyches and razorwing flocks vs his troops.
the_scotsman wrote: Tbh if I was playinf against quins (what a concept! Never once in the years since they came out) I'd play pure wych cult. Maybe with coven.
Make melta, haywire, and weapon upgrades as futile as possible and throw things like Lelith with an impaler vs his characters, hellions vs his vehicles and bikes, and wyches and razorwing flocks vs his troops.
Always IMO take a BP, they are 5pts now, super cheap and if you get stuck in combat you can still shoot it, way worth it over Blasters.
A Kabal unit with a Blaster is same points as a Wych units with a BP.
Also if you are going 5mans, go for MSU shock killers, take the 5pt weapon and not shardnets. b.c Sharnets are not 10pts i would save them for 10mans and you only need 1 per unit, to costly to spam nets now.
Niiai wrote: Is there any way where I can se the points before and after 9th edition?
I have the codex, I have ordered the new rules and new points but they have not arived yet. But that stil means I am sitting comparing points manualy. Somebody on the internett must have done so already.
harlokin wrote: What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?
It's difficult.
On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.
However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.
I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.
With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.
harlokin wrote: What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?
It's difficult.
On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.
However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.
I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.
With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.
Back in the old days if they castle up it usualy meant you could grab objectives. Superior speed, range and monilaty. Not durbailaty.
Wow so our infantry is now over costed (not that I took em anyway). What was good is now priced significantly more in points. Did everybody get points increases? I feel like we got hit esp. Hard.
Ok so I just looked again and it seems like the worst price changes were our infantry. Our transports don't seem too bad but the infantry themselves are. I dunno who priced our basic infantry. Warriors were pretty much guardsmen stats except 3+ to hit and better movement. Dunno how that's worth 9 pts per model.
harlokin wrote: What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?
It's difficult.
On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.
However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.
I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.
With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.
Oh, splinter weapons are absolutely awful.
Back in 5th, they were okay (not amazing or anything, just okay). It made us poor against infantry but good against bikers, monsters etc.
However, from 6th-7th onwards, monsters and such got progressively stronger and more resistant to poison. We started to see more monsters with 2+ armour saves and 6+ wounds, as well as monsters like Wraithknights which were just outright immune to poisoned weapons.
Roll on 8th edition and almost everything with T5+ (the stuff poison was supposed to be effective against) saw their wounds doubled or even tripled.
Previously, you only needed to get 4 wounds on a Carnifex to kill it. Now you need to inflict 8. It similarly used to take just 4 wounds to kill a Dreadknight or Hive Tyrant. Now it needs 12.
Splinter weapons could have been given D2 and they'd still be less effective against most monsters than they had been previously. However, they weren't given D2, nor a single pip of AP, nor any bonus to wound. They remained exactly the same, with no regard to the improvements to monsters and such. Plus the fact that it became much easier to wound monsters with low-toughness weapons (previously, a bolter would have been wounding a Carnifex, Dreadknight or Hive Tyrant on 6s, now it's wounding on 5s).
About the only thing splinter weapons had going for them was that Kabalites and Venoms were fairly cheap, so you could at least use the IG approach of quantity over quality.
And then 9th came along and decided that Kabalites needed to be almost twice as expensive as guardsmen.
As for the Venom, I think an appropriate comparison is a Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons vs. a Starweaver with 2 Shuriken Cannons. The starweaver has better guns, a much better invulnerable (4++ that works all the time compared with a 5++ that only works against shooting), automatically Advances 6", and can carry 6 passengers to the Venom's 5. So the Starweaver must be more expensive, right? Nope. Actually the twin splinter cannon Venom is 10pts more expensive.
/rant
Anyway, the best advice I can offer regarding splinter weapons is to go Flayed Skull. At least then Marines and other 3+ save units won't be able to get to a 2+ save by being in cover.
harlokin wrote: What is the general feeling about Venoms vs Raiders with the current rules/points?
It's difficult.
On the one hand, 25pt Disintegrators is painful and paying just shy of 100pts for a single Raider really doesn't seem worth it. But at the same time, Venoms have gone up 10pts and still have garbage firepower. They're also liable to be less effective against a meta that seems increasingly Primaris-driven.
However, my biggest problem is that the ludicrous increase in the cost of our troops means there's no longer anything I'd want to put inside them.
I've only played one 500 point game so far so my experience is probably pretty skewed, but my immediate take on my DE was that splinter weapons are nigh-on worthless. My opponent had Iron Hands primaris castled up in cover (we were playing the assassination mission) and I might as well have just been flicking bogies at them. I think I maybe did two wounds with splinter weapons all game. Virtually all my damage was done by the 2 blasters in the Kabalite squad and the DL on the Raider, which I should probably swap to a Disintegrator.
With that in mind I'm thinking it's probably best to max out the special weapons, which means a 10 man squad in a raider. A 5 man squad in a venom is cheaper, sure - but it's very expensive if the only thing that will actually be doing anything is one blaster.
Back in the old days if they castle up it usualy meant you could grab objectives. Superior speed, range and monilaty. Not durbailaty.
Yeah, it was a bad match of both opponent faction and mission. The assassination mission type has no other objectives (we didn't take secondary objectives, first game of new edition and neither of us had read the rules properly!), only score VPs by wounding / killing his warlord - who was obviously sat in cover surrounded by the rest of his army...
flamingkillamajig wrote: Wow so our infantry is now over costed (not that I took em anyway). What was good is now priced significantly more in points. Did everybody get points increases? I feel like we got hit esp. Hard.
We were one of the worst hit by the point increases, unfortunately. Talos seem to be about the only units of ours that made it through relatively unscathed.
Ok so I just looked again and it seems like the worst price changes were our infantry. Our transports don't seem too bad but the infantry themselves are. I dunno who priced our basic infantry. Warriors were pretty much guardsmen stats except 3+ to hit and better movement. Dunno how that's worth 9 pts per model.
Yeah, Kabalites are just insanely costed now. And given the cost of our other troops, I have no clue what GW even expects us to take at this point.
Splinter weapons should all move to being poison 2+
If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.
If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.
I'm inclined to agree.
There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.
Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.
e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+
Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).
Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.
At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?
Brutus_Apex wrote: I'd be down with at least an increase to 3+ to wound on all poisoned weaponry.
Someone at GW super hates Dark Eldar. I could write better rules in an afternoon.
That they do, i started in third edition and i remember people begging gw to update DE for years. they had a 2.5 edition codex all the way till 5th edition when they got their revamp... and then kinda faded away again. you could not even find a box of DE at a gw, they were pretty much direct order only for a long time.
i feel like my DE is going to sit on the shelf so to say this edition until GW gets their gak together and fixes DE 4 editions from now per the norm.
If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.
I'm inclined to agree.
There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.
Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.
e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+
Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).
Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.
At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?
...Those aren't pieces of standard wargear. They're weapons equipped by Unique HQ models. GSC have no poisoned weapons on their regular units.
If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.
I'm inclined to agree.
There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.
Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.
e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+
Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).
Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.
At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?
...Those aren't pieces of standard wargear. They're weapons equipped by Unique HQ models. GSC have no poisoned weapons on their regular units.
When I said 'standard wargear', I didn't mean that it was available to every GSC model. I meant that it came standard on one or more models. As in, this isn't artefacts or some super-expensive Thunderhammer Equivalent.
Further, even if you want to judge by HQ-only gear, the GSC stuff is still miles better than the unique weapons available to our HQs.
If an entire space marine faction can have 1 of 4 types of ammo used on all their bolt weapons be poison 2+ then I see no reason why it would make DE broken. Right now shooting at infantry in cover is largely a waste of time with poison weapons. Or it seems that way at least. It really doesn't help now that venoms can be shoot through dense cover, by infantry running and firing heavy weapons at us with only a -1 penalty. They really should not have increased the venom, and frankly it should have become cheaper by making splinter canons 5 points.
I'm inclined to agree.
There's a sad irony in the fact that DE specialise in poison weapons... yet have the worst poison weapons of any race.
Compare the poison weapons available to GSCs to the garbage we're stuck with.
e.g. our basic pistol is AP- D1 Poison 4+
Our upgraded pistol is AP- D1 Poison 2+
Meanwhile, a basic poisoned pistol for GSCs is AP- Dd3 Poison 2+
Then we have the Toxin Injector Claw, which is a Venom Blade but with AP-1 and Rending, outclassing both the Venom Blade and the Agoniser (to say nothing of Haemonculus Tools).
Then there's the Sanctus Bio-Dagger. S1 AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, user can make an additional attack. We have literal artefacts that are worse than this piece of standard GSC wargear. And I'm not even being facetious here. The Triptych Whip grants +3 attacks instead of +1, but it's only Poison 4+ and only D1. The Flensing Blade has better damage against characters (3 instead of 2), but it doesn't grant an extra attack and also only wounds on 3s compared to the Bio-Dagger's 2s.
At the very least, could our HQs steal some GSC weapons and use them instead of their own?
...Those aren't pieces of standard wargear. They're weapons equipped by Unique HQ models. GSC have no poisoned weapons on their regular units.
When I said 'standard wargear', I didn't mean that it was available to every GSC model. I meant that it came standard on one or more models. As in, this isn't artefacts or some super-expensive Thunderhammer Equivalent.
Further, even if you want to judge by HQ-only gear, the GSC stuff is still miles better than the unique weapons available to our HQs.
Yeah, signature drukari HQ wargear sucks ass for sure. The Huskblade is really the only thing that approaches "OK" and that's still really weak. Archite Glaives are a bad joke, as are Haemonculus Tools - the only recourse there is to use the absolute Legends-bait that is the expanded weapons of torture list that doesn't have an official model.
That's not a problem with Genestealer Cults, though, that's a problem with Drukhari melee weaponry being trash compared to...everyone. An imperial guard power fist is a stronger melee weapon than everything our HQs have access to as standard.
You're also complaining about the worst faction in the game, whose HQs are super not overpowered. The primus with that poison pistol and toxin claw is an IG company commander who just costs 2x as much for no reason. They also have the enticing option of a magus, who is statistically identical to a primaris psyker from the iG, but again, twice as many points for absolutely no reason at all. Don't lash out at factions also in the dumpster, there's no point.
Yeah, signature drukari HQ wargear sucks ass for sure. The Huskblade is really the only thing that approaches "OK" and that's still really weak. Archite Glaives are a bad joke, as are Haemonculus Tools - the only recourse there is to use the absolute Legends-bait that is the expanded weapons of torture list that doesn't have an official model.
You know, until you mentioned it, it hadn't actually occurred to me that there isn't an official model for Haemonculus Tools.
That's not a problem with Genestealer Cults, though, that's a problem with Drukhari melee weaponry being trash compared to...everyone. An imperial guard power fist is a stronger melee weapon than everything our HQs have access to as standard.
You're also complaining about the worst faction in the game, whose HQs are super not overpowered. The primus with that poison pistol and toxin claw is an IG company commander who just costs 2x as much for no reason. They also have the enticing option of a magus, who is statistically identical to a primaris psyker from the iG, but again, twice as many points for absolutely no reason at all. Don't lash out at factions also in the dumpster, there's no point.
I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying, since it seems we basically agree.
I wasn't trying to say that GSC weapons are too strong. My issue is that Dark Eldar are supposedly the masters of poison (to the extent that they use it on almost every model), yet for all that they seem to have the worst poison weapons in the entire game. Even poison melee weapon artefacts on purportedly glass-cannon HQs are still completely toothless.
Hence, I don't mind that GSCs have some nice poison weapons. I do mind that Dark Eldar don't.
I apologise if that wasn't clear in my original post.
Incidentally, what is it with GW and drastically overcosting any and all IG analogues?
yeah I really honestly do not know. At this point, I ally in brood brothers to get Primaris and Astropath psykers so I can perform the psychic secondary objectives with my GSC. It's so weird.
To me, the archon with the huskblade most approaches OK - he tends to win HQ duels with similarly costed analogues just owing to his 2++ save and his d6 damage pistol.
isn't the official rule for the haemonculus tools just..the thing the default haemonculus is holding? The little knife and the claw on his left side? I thought the default loadout for the plastic haemonculus was Injector+Tools+Stinger Pistol.
the succubus is the real embarrassment. why the glaive doesn't have d3 damage by default is absoluely beyond me, as is why she has 4A to the freaking haemonculus' 5A. so laughable.
I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default. I think it's the same problem across our codex, our Artefacts are basically patches which make our HQs bearable, rather than the fun bonus that they should be.
Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.
harlokin wrote: I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default.
Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.
Yeah SoB has basically the blood glaive for 10pts (+2str, -3ap, D3) making her a 60pts Model. DE heroes needs some serious help IMO. When i was playing SoB it felt like i was playing a better DE army, just a little slower and with no Coven. With BA it was like playing a mix of Kabal and Wyches together.
I'm trying to not be to negative with 9th towards DE, at least coven is still strong, and wyches are now playable. But i do feel the sting still.
harlokin wrote: I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default. I think it's the same problem across our codex, our Artefacts are basically patches which make our HQs bearable, rather than the fun bonus that they should be.
Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.
yeah, and giving the succubus a shardnet+impaler makes her feel less utterly worthless.
Because on the bright side, AP-1 is the only amount of ap that matters anyway vs most characters! eyyyyyyy!
Most DE characters just look awful in comparison. Character duels are still just..kinda laughable in 8th, because 99% of the time whoever goes first just wipes their opponent completely with massive overkill. Heck, a lot of the time if I try to go for a "character duel" in 8th/9th the blast pistol shot just Indiana Jones's the opposing character while they're doing their preparatory pre-duel flourishes.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah I really honestly do not know. At this point, I ally in brood brothers to get Primaris and Astropath psykers so I can perform the psychic secondary objectives with my GSC. It's so weird.
To me, the archon with the huskblade most approaches OK - he tends to win HQ duels with similarly costed analogues just owing to his 2++ save and his d6 damage pistol.
isn't the official rule for the haemonculus tools just..the thing the default haemonculus is holding? The little knife and the claw on his left side? I thought the default loadout for the plastic haemonculus was Injector+Tools+Stinger Pistol.
the succubus is the real embarrassment. why the glaive doesn't have d3 damage by default is absoluely beyond me, as is why she has 4A to the freaking haemonculus' 5A. so laughable.
That 4 attacks has really annoyed me this entire edition. The drug fueled murder bitch gladiator that has less attacks then a politician/mobster class and the scientist/lab geek
I actually like the impaler on the succubus though. Most characters have invulns or 2+ saves anyway and the damage 2 can really catch folks. That said, the succubus is half as good as it should be.
I really think they need to make poison 2+ the more I think about it. It already exists in the game, and it's clearly not broken and it fits the background very well. DE use poisons specifically so they don't need to worry about strength. Strange that their poison is such garbage.
harlokin wrote: I agree, The Blood Glaive is what the Archite should be by default. I think it's the same problem across our codex, our Artefacts are basically patches which make our HQs bearable, rather than the fun bonus that they should be.
Maybe I have low standards, but I think Haemonculi with Electrocorrosive Whips are pretty decent.
yeah, and giving the succubus a shardnet+impaler makes her feel less utterly worthless.
Because on the bright side, AP-1 is the only amount of ap that matters anyway vs most characters! eyyyyyyy!
Most DE characters just look awful in comparison. Character duels are still just..kinda laughable in 8th, because 99% of the time whoever goes first just wipes their opponent completely with massive overkill. Heck, a lot of the time if I try to go for a "character duel" in 8th/9th the blast pistol shot just Indiana Jones's the opposing character while they're doing their preparatory pre-duel flourishes.
The funny thing is, in the index character duels were much closer matched and it was actually when they tried to solo entire squads that they got pig piled and taught a lesson. But classic GW decided single infantry model characters should still solo entire squads in one round of melee which also resulted in the side effect of obliterating other characters.
But hey, now the marines get some A hole with an hour glass to ensure they swat every other armies characters first, sort of like our best relic only they can have up to 3 and at no cost to CP or their relics and without needing a specific chapter tactic! Yay!
Also, why don't we have access to Incubus Lords? How awesome would they be.
Our character gear has been an embarrassment for years now. Dark Eldar should have some of the deadliest weapons available, countered only by our inherent lack of armour and survivability. We basically have neither.
The Archite Glaive is the perfect example of GW not caring or a deliberate attempt to make DE bad.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Also, why don't we have access to Incubus Lords? How awesome would they be.
That would indeed be nice. Hell, at the very least, you'd think they could let an Archon take an Incubi suit and weapons.
Also, probably no secret at this point, but I'd also love a Mandrake Lord. IMO they have some fantastically creepy fluff, so it's kinda sad that they are stuck as a single squad of 1-wound mooks with 0 options and 0 characters.
That said, I'd settle for Archons being able to swap out their Shadowfields for a 5++ with a -1 to hit. Then at least I can take a Poison Tongue Archon with the Soul Seeker and pretend he's a Mandrake Lord.
Our character gear has been an embarrassment for years now. Dark Eldar should have some of the deadliest weapons available, countered only by our inherent lack of armour and survivability. We basically have neither.
Agreed.
However, what bugs me about DE gear isn't just that it's severely underpowered - it's that it's so bland. Like no thought whatsoever went into it.
I think the_scotsman made a similar point not long ago with regard to Harlequin weapons. You've got a weapon that covers the victim in monofilament wire, you've got a weapon that lets the Harlequin reach into the victim's chest and pull out their heart, and you've got a weapon that injects monofilament right into their body. So how are these weapons represented?
S+2 AP-2 D1
S+1 AP-3 D1
S+1 AP-1 Dd3
Thrilling.
Could we not get some weapons (or other non-artefact wargear) with more creative effects?
We had cool gear, it just all got taken away. Clone Fields, Drugs or Archons, WWPs, PGL, our melee weapons has always been straight to the point but had a special rule on them and those are gone other than venom blade. Ele-whip used to 1/2 the opponent strength, Huskblade had Instant death, Djin blade actually almost stayed the same, but was not a relic.
Yeah, I really feel like the rules for all drukhari and harlequin weapons could use a major overhaul just to be more interesting. So much at this point is so samey and boring, I want to go back to playing these armies to have "weird tricks"
Just off the top of my head:
-Stunclaw. Ditch the mortal wound thing. if a model equipped with this weapon starts its turn within Engagement Range of an enemy CHARACTER model, it can attempt to kidnap that model while it makes its Fall Back move. The players roll off and add the Str of the models. If the opposing player wins the roll off, the unit must Fall Back as normal. If the controlling player wins the roll off, after the fall back move is made set up the enemy CHARACTER model within Engagement Range of the model equipped with the Stunclaw.
-Add Impaler Lances as a purchaseable melee weapon on Scourge Solarites and Raider transports. Remove Power Lance. 10pts, +1S -1AP 1 Damage, same special rule as the Stunclaw above.
-Clone Field. Replaces the Shadow Field. provides a 4++ invulnerable save. If a model equipped with a Clone Field has not yet had to make any save rolls this turn, it makes D3 additional attacks in the Fight phase with one of its equipped melee weapons.
-Electrocorrosive Whip. Make 1 damage. If an enemy model that does not have the VEHICLE keyword loses any wounds to this weapon, halve that models strength rounding down until the end of its players next turn.
-Beastmaster's Scourge. Enemy BEASTS and SWARMS models that lose any wounds to a model equipped with this weapon may not declare any attacks targeting that model for the remainder of the FIGHT phase. If there are no other enemy models within Engagement Range, those models may not make any attacks this turn.
-Bladevanes. When a model equipped with this weapon declares a Fall Back move, it may make 1 attack as if it were the Fight phase against one enemy unit within Engagement Range.
-Mindphase Gauntlet. Strength X2, attacks with this weapon roll to wound against the target's Leadership stat rather than Toughness.
-Razorflails. A model equipped with this weapon may make 1 bonus attack with it for each enemy model within Engagement Range.
-Scissorhand. Remove bonus attack. Add rule Bleed Out. If an enemy model without the VEHICLE keyword lost any wounds to it, at the end of the fight phase roll a d6. if the result is higher than the number of wounds the model has remaining, remove the model from play as a casualty.
-Flesh Gauntlet. Sx2 Ap-2 Dd3. More precise but less piercing power fist weapon - plug a hole in our codex that's been there basically for ages.
-Agonizer. Any wounds lost to an Agonizer count as models from that unit being destroyed for the purposes of Morale tests.
-Talos Gauntlet. Just make it the high cost, higher damage anti-vehicle weapon. Currently it never outperforms the scalpels due to the bonus attack and the hit mod. Simple.
-Archite glaive. Just make it a dang power fist equivalent. Damage d3 and the additional rule added to the agonizer would make agonizer/archite an interesting dual choice.
Well, GW's treatment of Drukhari is really blunt.
Primaris gets all the love - certainly due to the sales figures.
All other factions have to stay back. Here the release of SoB is a bit surprising.
OK, so I have had a bunch of wyches in my possession for far too long, maybe it's time to do something with them. I do have a few other Drukhari units (5 scourges, a razorwing , 2 sqds kabalites and an archon) but the majority is wych cult (which I prefer aesthetically).
2x Succubus
18 wyches (should be 20, think I lost 2 but can easily use spare legs from elsewhere)
9 Reavers
5 Hellions
1 Raider
2 Venoms
For obsessions, was thinking either custom (slashing impact, +?) or Cult of Poisoned Blade. I like the +1 S armywide plus fun artefact.
Is it worth adding minimum units of hellions/reavers just to use up the less popular combat drug options so that you get the better ones on other units?
What about the hekatrix..blast pistol on each, agonizer?
Moving forward, what else to add? Assuming a second razorwing...more scourges?
Doesn't look super strong on paper, but want to get the army at least painted up.
Cheers.
Amishprn86 wrote: We had cool gear, it just all got taken away. Clone Fields, Drugs or Archons, WWPs, PGL, our melee weapons has always been straight to the point but had a special rule on them and those are gone other than venom blade. Ele-whip used to 1/2 the opponent strength, Huskblade had Instant death, Djin blade actually almost stayed the same, but was not a relic.
To say archons got nerfed is like saying a nuke is subtle. Huskblades were great and even half-way decent even at ap 3 in 7th ed. Shadowfield was great in our 7th ed codex. The thing could keep tanking even after failing its first invulnerable save of the phase. Basically against a gun-line of guard or tau it could actually live. I had 4 archons in a squad tank a ton of tau firing line shots and take out a stormsurge in 7th. Instant death was great (dealt with FnP for sure). Same goes for blaster archons which we also lost. We also lost the WWP's as you said.
I don't remember PGL being good but i started in 7th so i never played with PGL, combat drugs on archons, clone fields (which sounded cool vs low attack monsters in 5th) and WWP (which i barely used in 7th with heat lance scourge until i didn't but i heard worked well with grotesques).
We also lost most of our heroes including Vect, haven't gotten anything new besides Void ravens (which we technically had in 5th) and wracks (which we technically had in 5th but got ONE new weapon YAY!), we lost trueborn and bloodbrides, got priced into the crapper, had incubi lose relevance since before the end of 7th and never get it back, scourge are mostly garbage now down from being halfway decent or ok in 7th (that's hundreds of dollars down the drain i'm never getting back), hellions always sucked as long as i played, reavers went from being great to being just ok, archons went from amazing to absolute gak, our light infantry became worthless, all the beast units and most mercenary units suck and we had our army book split in 3 parts.
Nothing we have is that good in 9th by the sounds of it. Our basic infantry are WAY too expensive for what they are. Seriously space marines are 15 pts now and warriors are 9 pts in 9th. Who made the call to fix it that way? Light infantry was garbage before 9th dropped. Nothing makes me want to get it esp. since light infantry sound even weaker now. Ravagers got a price hike AGAIN and talos didn't really AGAIN. Jesus GW what is the prescribed way you want us to play? Do you want us to always lose to Space Marines or lose due to not painting our armies for some reason. Army favoritism is so very, very real. If you don't play marines, eldar (in 8th eldar weren't so hot but usually they are), tau, knights or maybe one or 2 other armies you may as well never compete in a game.
At this point why does the shadowfield 2++ even have a 1 time lose it downside anymore? back in the day good invuln saves were pretty rare, so it made sense for the shadowfield to fail after a failed save, but now adays 3++ and rerollable invuln saves are so common place, that a 2++ on a t3 body with no re-rolls isnt that attrocious and still vulnerable to weight of fire.
warmaster21 wrote: At this point why does the shadowfield 2++ even have a 1 time lose it downside anymore? back in the day good invuln saves were pretty rare, so it made sense for the shadowfield to fail after a failed save, but now adays 3++ and rerollable invuln saves are so common place, that a 2++ on a t3 body with no re-rolls isnt that attrocious and still vulnerable to weight of fire.
At the very least, the downside seems wildly in excess of the Shadowfield's power (or the Archon's power, for that matter).
It seems like it could easily go down to a 4++ or even a 3++ on a failed save, and remain like that for the rest of the game. Alternatively, perhaps it should only fail for the remainder of the turn or phase, so if you survive combat/shooting then you get your 2++ back.
Regarding the current mechanic, I think one of the worst aspects is that it simply isn't fun. If I make all my saves, then it's not fun for my opponent who got to watch all his attacked bounce off. If I fail the saves, it's not fun for me because my HQ (assuming he even survived) is now a sitting duck for the remainder of the game. Hell, even before then, I generally don't want to do anything with my Warlord in case he loses his save. Not to mention the fact that it slows everything down because you have to roll saves one by one (unless you're like me and always fail your Shadowfiled save on the very first roll, which at least eliminates the time issues).
Put simply, I think the Shadowfield could really do with a complete change of mechanics. IMO it should be along the lines of a 4++ with an additional ability like '-1 to hit' or 'successful hit rolls against the Archon must be rerolled' or 'rolls of 6+ to hit are treated as misses'. Something that would allow it to retain its flavour of concealing the Archon from sight and making him harder to hit, but without either the hideous drawback or an unfun 2++.
bullyboy wrote: OK, so I have had a bunch of wyches in my possession for far too long, maybe it's time to do something with them. I do have a few other Drukhari units (5 scourges, a razorwing , 2 sqds kabalites and an archon) but the majority is wych cult (which I prefer aesthetically).
2x Succubus
18 wyches (should be 20, think I lost 2 but can easily use spare legs from elsewhere)
9 Reavers
5 Hellions
1 Raider
2 Venoms
For obsessions, was thinking either custom (slashing impact, +?) or Cult of Poisoned Blade. I like the +1 S armywide plus fun artefact.
Is it worth adding minimum units of hellions/reavers just to use up the less popular combat drug options so that you get the better ones on other units?
What about the hekatrix..blast pistol on each, agonizer?
Moving forward, what else to add? Assuming a second razorwing...more scourges?
Doesn't look super strong on paper, but want to get the army at least painted up.
Cheers.
I'm also having a playabout with Wyches, mainly because I like the models, and I'd like to make a proper Alliance of Agony.
I've been mainly tinkering with Cult of Strife, partly because I'm expecting a new Lelith model, but also because I can put a Reaper or two in a CoS detachment and have the cool option of the No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp strat.
I'd go with Blast Pistols on the Hekatrixes, but wouldn't bother with Agonizers.
Blast Pistols definitely seem like a higher priority than Agonisers for hekatrixes.
Personally, I don't think I'd bother with Agonisers at all unless I had spare points. They're very weak weapons even on HQs with better WS and more attacks, so it's hard to see squad sergeants getting any meaningful mileage out of them.
Every Wych unit I take for now (until new codex that is) 100% for sure is a Blast pistol, then after my list is made if i have points i'll go for melee weapons lol.
I don't have the 9th edition rules or chapter approved and they keep increasing the cost of ravagers but disintegrator ravagers still always seem good esp. if marine meta is a thing. I imagine long range, anti-MEQ, multiple wound killing power is still decent.
Denegaar wrote: So I want to improve the heavy / antitank part of my army. I know Talos are still great, what about Ravagers? Still worth the points?
Ravagers feel too expensive now, but we aren't over blessed with anti tank options. I'm planning on trying out Reapers, which are pretty good now that they can move and fire without penalty, and they can also be fielded in Wych Cult (for the Cult of Strife strat) or Coven (for Dark Technomancers).
Ravagers are 100% fine and not to costly, they in % per unit wise went up some of the least amount form 8th. Talos, Ravagers, and the Reaper are all great.
My normal list still has 1-2 Ravagers, 1-2 Reapers now, and at least a unit of Talos. B.c the Reaper is more wounds than 10 you need to IMO make sure you don't take to many other transports b.c of the Secondary Titan slayer.
Amishprn86 wrote: Ravagers are 100% fine and not to costly, they in % per unit wise went up some of the least amount form 8th.
Out of interest, are you including the weapons in that?
Yes, b.c the actual Ravager went down 10pts, over all it went up 20pts for the full unit, just 5 troops alone went up 15pts. That is a HUGE difference.
Yea I have to agree with Amish here. Too many folks are blasting the ravager out of context. Everything in the game went up, sure dissies went up too but they were under-priced for 8th to start.
Now, venoms, those got hosed IMO. A splinter canon is worth at most 5 points IMHO. The fact that a star weaver is 80 compared to a venom at 90 is a travesty. Better weapons, greater transport capacity, better invulnerable save and just to kick the venom in the balls it wins out in combat too.
I'd still rate the ravager as a must take. I would definitely take raiders over venoms though.
Anyone else here curious to know how long ago the points were changed across the board in preparation for 9th? Usually GW works quite a few months in advance, in some cases years, but thats more in the model territory. Not so much rules.
Anyway my point is, Do you think that we will see points reductions when we get our codex. I understand we probably won't see our codex until next year, but hopefully things will have been adjusted a bit until then.
I couldn't bother taking venoms before. Poison isn't that good imo. When everything in 8th got more wounds and poison remained the same amount of shots, 1 damage and almost always no AP in our case it just ended up sucking.
Keep in mind almost all dark eldar anti-infantry shooting is 18" for effective range (rapid fire needs to be half range to be decent). For some dumb reason splinter cannons are rapid fire instead of assault 6 like dissies on ravagers. Ever since 8th i won't take them. Dissies are the only dark eldar anti-infantry weapon that are 36" range and maintain a good rate of fire. It's not like light infantry are that good anyway esp. in 9th by the sounds of it.
To think i liked the idea of shredders after our 8th ed codex. With the increased cost of warriors and even transports i don't really want to take them.
A 9th ed codex for dark eldar would help fix our side up but i fear that'd ruin what i've bought for my army which honestly was probably a waste of time during a pandemic where most can't play 40k.
Anyone else here curious to know how long ago the points were changed across the board in preparation for 9th? Usually GW works quite a few months in advance, in some cases years, but thats more in the model territory. Not so much rules.
Anyway my point is, Do you think that we will see points reductions when we get our codex. I understand we probably won't see our codex until next year, but hopefully things will have been adjusted a bit until then.
The points were set at least as early as around Spetember/October last year according to the Tabletop Tactics guys who were involved in playtesting. They said they came onboard around that time but the points were already finalised by then so they had no input into them.
I'd hope we see points reductions but it depends how GW approaches 9th. In general I agree with raising the costs of things to reduce the number of models on the board but I think in the case of DE we've been pushed too far. I wouldn't mind seeing Warriors at around 8-9 points if they were actually worth that as thematically being around 50% better than a Guardsmen seems right, but then you'd need to seriously upgrade the basic gun or special rules to make that balanced. I don't think it'd be a good thing for the game overall if GW raised all the points up to around the same level they were at the start of 8th then just keep lowering them over and over like they did during that edition.
Am I missing an FAQ somewhere that doesn't allow you to use Black Cornucopians on the first turn?
Black Cornucopians- Use this stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. Pick a unit of Prophets of Flesh Wracks from your army and remove it from the battlefield, then set it up again at its full starting strength wholly within 6" of the edge of the battlefield and more than 9" from any enemy models.
Teleport Homer (Action)- Score 4 victory points each time a unit from your army successfully completes the following action: One INFANTRY unit from your army can start to perform this action at the end of your Movement phase if it is wholly within your opponent's deployment zone. This action is completed at the end of your next Command phase, provided the unit attempting it is still wholly within your opponent's deployment zone.
Sequencing- While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time- e.g. 'at the start of the battle round' or 'at the end of the Fight phase'. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order.
The most useful aspect of this is that you can start the Teleport Homer action on turn 1. It looks like it is pretty difficult to get an Infantry unit in your opponent's deployment zone on turn 1 (Advancing Scourges with Fire and Fade have 22"-27" movement for possible turn 1 Linebreaker) but Black Cornucopians is kind of a loophole to the strategic reserves rule.
Seems fine to me. Normally folks didn't use that strat first turn unless going second and taking casualties. But with the extra CP of 9th it seems viable to me.
Hellions with +2 movement combat drug advancing and firing and fading would also be pretty fast 24-29"
Now I'm actually looking at a Raider filled with more Wracks utilizing Enhanced Aethersails and Fire and Fade on turn 1 for a 29" move. Combined with the Black Cornucopians unit, that is pricey at 4 CPs but a reliable turn 1 Linebreaker completion and setup for turn 2 completions of Linebreaker and Teleport Homer.
Has anyone included any of the cheaper Court units, like Lhamaens or Ur-Ghuls in their lists?
I was wondering if they have potential value for performing Actions. It seems to me that if you need a unit to do nothing but Deploy Scramblers, better a 16 point Ur-Ghul do it than a 60+ point unit of Wracks.
So, I played another game against a similar chaos list to the one I faced last time (same player). I tried Cult of Strife instead of Slashing+Test, and hoooooboy, do I hope the new Lelith comes with an updated sheet that says she can go in any subfaction. Because Cult of Strife felt like gaaaaaaarbage compared to test+slashing. Lelith herself was...OK, killed a terminator lord over two turns and prevented his buddies from shooting. She's very similar to a shardnet succubus at the end of the day.
Star of the show was, funnily enough given the discussion going on here, my archon. Finished off 3 daemon engines, one of them being a discolord, racking up 17 wounds vs daemon engines between his never-failing blast pistol and surprisingly effective huskblade.
The game turned into a high-scoring bloodbath and my opponent selected better secondaries for that. Final score was 90 to 75, with me losing 5 points on Abhor (he'd only had 2 psykers), 5 points on primary, and 5 points on Engage on All Fronts largely because I spent the fifth turn with 2 models on the board. My opponent had Bring it Down which he maxed pretty easily by killing all my transports, Raise the banners which he set up turn 1 and just went the whole game, and Linebreaker which the Terminators maxed by Lelith not being able to kill them fast enough.
Not much to be gleaned about the overall power of drukhari except that our infantry units are massively overpriced (we knew that) and darklight weapons are obnoxiously weakened by armies with invul saves. Also, interestingly, I maintain a 100% winrate when I get first turn and a 0% winrate when I get second turn in 9th. Only 6 games and 3 games, but still something I need to figure out how to crack.
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harlokin wrote: Has anyone included any of the cheaper Court units, like Lhamaens or Ur-Ghuls in their lists?
I was wondering if they have potential value for performing Actions. It seems to me that if you need a unit to do nothing but Deploy Scramblers, better a 16 point Ur-Ghul do it than a 60+ point unit of Wracks.
I've been using min mandrakes. If you're going for scramblers, yeah I can see Sslyth being good for that one.
harlokin wrote: Has anyone included any of the cheaper Court units, like Lhamaens or Ur-Ghuls in their lists?
I was wondering if they have potential value for performing Actions. It seems to me that if you need a unit to do nothing but Deploy Scramblers, better a 16 point Ur-Ghul do it than a 60+ point unit of Wracks.
I used to use a trio of Lhamaeans in my Poison Tongue lists back in 8th. They weren't amazing with just 2 attacks each and no ability to harm vehicles, but Mortal Wounds on a 4+ (rerolling 1s to wound with Poison Tongue) meant that three of them together could often put a few wounds on a character or monster.
However, GW apparently decided that Poison Tongue had been dominating the meta for far too long and so nerfed them into the ground (Mortal Wounds now only on 6s, wheeee).
Hence, I fear the days of me including Lhamaeans in my lists have now long past.
As for ur-Ghuls, I didn't see the point of them even in 8th and frankly I still don't.
Did you have any Reapers in your CoS detachment, and if so did you get to use the shoot again strat?
I don't own a reaper, although I am considering taking the spare gun bits from my Vauls Wrath gun and magnetizing a little conversion kit for one of my many raiders.
I think if i'd had one I would have put it in the Dark Technomancers detachment instead.
I was wondering if they have potential value for performing Actions. It seems to me that if you need a unit to do nothing but Deploy Scramblers, better a 16 point Ur-Ghul do it than a 60+ point unit of Wracks.
Strangely enough, if you use the Ur-Ghul datasheet from Blackstone Fortress they're 15 points, with the same rules.
Amishprn86 wrote: Sadly Lhamaeans don't get MW's on a 4+ anymore and now just wound on 2+ and MW's on 6+.
Yeah, hence why I'll be dropping them from my lists.
Was that really considered overpowered? Outside of my own lists, I can't recall them ever being a common sight in 8th, let alone being any sort of powerhouse at tournaments or even in casual play.
Amishprn86 wrote: Sadly Lhamaeans don't get MW's on a 4+ anymore and now just wound on 2+ and MW's on 6+.
Yeah, hence why I'll be dropping them from my lists.
Was that really considered overpowered? Outside of my own lists, I can't recall them ever being a common sight in 8th, let alone being any sort of powerhouse at tournaments or even in casual play.
Amishprn86 wrote: Sadly Lhamaeans don't get MW's on a 4+ anymore and now just wound on 2+ and MW's on 6+.
Yeah, hence why I'll be dropping them from my lists.
Was that really considered overpowered? Outside of my own lists, I can't recall them ever being a common sight in 8th, let alone being any sort of powerhouse at tournaments or even in casual play.
It clearly wasn't intentional though. It's just one of those things that was effected by the way mods work now. Another example is GSC relic sniper rifle gift from beyond which adds +2 to wound, but now effectively only adds +1 due to 9th. Which is also a major nerf.
So no, I don't think it was over powered and I also don't think they did either. Hopefully more thought will go into our 9th ed codex.
Personally I am hoping splinter weapons get redesigned. Poison 2+ is the easiest fix, but personally I'd rather give splinter weapons strength and AP back like they had in 3rd ed, but with a +1 to wound verse infantry.
So for example splinter pistols, carbines, pods and rifles would be S3 -1AP +1 to wound verse infantry
Splinter canons would be S4 -1AP +1 to wound infantry. Oh and BTW I'd just make it heavy 6. Now they would actually threaten those last few wounds on vehicles.
The lack of AP across the army is a real issue in the era of +1 to save for cover.
Yeah, poison weapons feel underwhelming vs everything thougher than an elf.
And please, they should make our characters work inside vehicles, it makes no sense that the captain of a pirate ship is useless inside his boat, it should be even better! and right now for using him, he has to run behind...
Kabals and Cults are really key parts of the army, and right now they are just a mess, they make no sense rules-wise or lore-wise.
Denegaar wrote: Yeah, poison weapons feel underwhelming vs everything thougher than an elf.
And please, they should make our characters work inside vehicles, it makes no sense that the captain of a pirate ship is useless inside his boat, it should be even better! and right now for using him, he has to run behind...
Kabals and Cults are really key parts of the army, and right now they are just a mess, they make no sense rules-wise or lore-wise.
I always felt that any character with an aura should apply it to whatever they are embarked in, be it a fortification, or transport, kind of like how a KFF applies to the vehicle the mek is riding in.
No, GW wants you to have guys running on foot after flying fast tanks cheerleading them, but only the Gunman can hear you and no one else hanging out/off of our boats. They can no have you "Sitting next to the crew" and giving them peep talk's either, no no thats toooooo silly for GW also.
Anyone else thinking that we might see updated wargear/profile changes since they started releasing some of the new changes to Marine/Chaos Marines/Necrons?
I mean, we're Dark Eldar so probably not, but one can hope.
It would make a bit of sense considering our points changes.
Buffing all marine equivalents to two wounds really requires a change to all D6 damage weapons, I think. I would love to see dark light weapons change to a 2D3 damage.
Scanning our weapons for things that do more than 1 damage, there aren't many. Drazhar an auto include as before. Hellions suddenly important? Do Clawed Fiends become better against MEQ than Grotesques solely because of D2?
They make good points, in general, for the ones that can't watch the video:
Good: Blast Pistols, Talos, Voidraven, Incubi and to a lesser extent Wracks, Reapers and HQs
Bad: Look out Sir (before the FAQ of the FAQ), Venom with double Cannon, Disintegrator Cannons (without Writ) and Darklight Weaponry.
Ugly: Basically Troops.
Having now play the Bomber in 9th, No, its really bad, its nothing compare to the CHE. I've player 2 RWJF and a VB twice now. Seriously I took the bomber and put it in storage after the second game with it. I was playing Test of Skill too, 2 Shots is just not enough when most things can easily get -1 to hit now.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Anyone else thinking that we might see updated wargear/profile changes since they started releasing some of the new changes to Marine/Chaos Marines/Necrons?
I mean, we're Dark Eldar so probably not, but one can hope.
It would make a bit of sense considering our points changes.
I think its going to be REALLY bad for us for the next few months, a lot of guns are now +1D and even +1str, meaning more Str 5 and Str 6 with 2D and 3D (or even 4D like TH's) makes our vehicles far worst.
Regardless of what we do it as an upgrade, if its not something to protect our vehicles, its not worth it to me as I'm going to spam Talos and Heavy vehicles, but will be DSing 2 Ravagers 1 Reaper and lots of Mandrakes with Wracks, focusing on 10 primary points a turn and making sure they can not get theirs.
HB's are now 2D, even if they are 15pts over 10pts, thats still insane, you can make them, re-roll all hits, and rr1's to wounds. 3 HB's kills a BH venom. And thats not counting the ability to add +1 to wound to them. On averager with just rr1's to hit, its still 6D to a venom, and thats not just HB"s some other Str 5 weapons also went to 2D.
Yea heavy bolters are now effectively dissintegrator canons verse our army. Oh the irony. They even have our old cost.
Biggest difference is HB's are available to almost every unit in the imperium.
Quad HB rapiers are nightmare fuel for our transports now.
I also agree with amish on the bomber. It's crap now, especially with almost every marine unit gaining wounds, rendering the bomb WAYYYYYYYY less effective while needing to move into 4 damage smash fether range (5D if they master craft it).
I like tabletop tactics a lot but I have long disagreed with Lawrence view on DE. He generally just relies on spamming the 2-3 most efficient units at the best and worst of times. So he has basically no actual experience using anything but Venom spam, ravagers and fliers, and very briefly reavers and talos depending on the edition and the way the wind blew. Thats over a decade of playing them as well. I find the army is harder to master while playing more variety, but ultimately more powerful.
I mean, no real cult experience. No grots or wracks. No reapers or whats craziest to me is not owning/playing raiders. Personally I have found the Yacht club (massed raiders) the longest spanning viable army beyond coven spam.
So yea, some solid advice, but take with a bit of salt since the guy has extremely limited experience playing with most of the books units.
I think Skari has a much better handle on the army honestly. So be sure to get multiple views on it.
To be fair, spamming 2 or 3 of our most efficient units is how most of the top Drukhari players get anywhere...after all it's a fair chunk of our codex
I tend to feel that Lawrence is a very good player, who happens to also play Drukhari, rather than a very good Drukhari player. I'll be interested to see his "tactica" list, which I believe has Reapers and MSU Incubi.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea heavy bolters are now effectively dissintegrator canons verse our army. Oh the irony. They even have our old cost.
Biggest difference is HB's are available to almost every unit in the imperium.
Quad HB rapiers are nightmare fuel for our transports now.
I also agree with amish on the bomber. It's crap now, especially with almost every marine unit gaining wounds, rendering the bomb WAYYYYYYYY less effective while needing to move into 4 damage smash fether range (5D if they master craft it).
I like tabletop tactics a lot but I have long disagreed with Lawrence view on DE. He generally just relies on spamming the 2-3 most efficient units at the best and worst of times. So he has basically no actual experience using anything but Venom spam, ravagers and fliers, and very briefly reavers and talos depending on the edition and the way the wind blew. Thats over a decade of playing them as well. I find the army is harder to master while playing more variety, but ultimately more powerful.
I mean, no real cult experience. No grots or wracks. No reapers or whats craziest to me is not owning/playing raiders. Personally I have found the Yacht club (massed raiders) the longest spanning viable army beyond coven spam.
So yea, some solid advice, but take with a bit of salt since the guy has extremely limited experience playing with most of the books units.
I think Skari has a much better handle on the army honestly. So be sure to get multiple views on it.
I can not agree more with everything you said, especially the highlighted parts. Lawrence once (at the start of 8th) said something i'll never forget. This was when Razorback Spam was king, he did a video on how DE can handle it, he said Venom spam was the anser... vs Razorback spam. I was in chat, ask him to put up or shut up (he was doing a GT that weekend, I asked him to show the DE community he is right b.c at that time all DE players basically didn't know what to do vs it as we didn't have a Codex yet and RWF's were nerf). He took a Razorback spam list and won. After that event I will never listen to him again. Even the most basic new DE player knows 10 Venoms will not win against 10 Razorbacks. How he even said it was good is beyond me.
Poison needs 3+ to wound and -1 APimo, or double the rate of fire with 3+ to wound.
The Bombers bomb is quite useless now. I hate MW anyway. Just make it massively powerful and at least 3 wounds per hit or make it a Titan killer. Strength 16, 4d6 wounds or something. It's one use only anyway.
Poison needs 3+ to wound and -1 APimo, or double the rate of fire with 3+ to wound.
The Bombers bomb is quite useless now. I hate MW anyway. Just make it massively powerful and at least 3 wounds per hit or make it a Titan killer. Strength 16, 4d6 wounds or something. It's one use only anyway.
That's what surprises me the most as a newbie, I don't get why they can't upgrade all armies at the same time, at least in basic things like this. If they upgrade Marines now and Drukhari in 4 months, this is 4 months of miserable play for a lot of people... it's unfair to play with old rules while the poster boys have their new toys and obliterate everything in sight with their superior weaponry. In 8th at least we had the indexes...
I wanted to start playing in my store this September, but I'll probably play only casual games until the Codex is released, it doesn't seem fun to play vs blatantly better armies in tournaments, at least for an unexperienced player.
I was playing back when we had to wait 10 years or more for codex updates. Count yourself lucky you came in such great time in the history of the game.
Actually, I’m glad that there’s downtime between Codexes man. I don’t have the time or energy to keep up to date on GW accelerated release schedule.
But there is a difference in "Hey all Imperial is getting a bonus 20% to damage and toughness, oh but everyone else? go sit in the corner" and a codex release.
GW is fundamentally changing static stat lines that we all have used as the core for balance. Kabals are priced at 9pts b.c Marines are 1 wound, if Marines are 2 wounds for 18pts, sure we are not 1/2 the points but we are also less than 1/2 the damage and toughness, not only are they just better at shoot, damage, and melee, but also army, and rules. Its a stark difference.
Another example, Power swords are getting +1str, but if marines gets them before everyone else, that just means we are straight weaker for the same thing. But its not just a power sword, its 40+ profiles that are changing, many which are on over 1/2 the units (Heavy flamers and Heavy bolters for example). But how are players that just bought the new Banshees going to feel when "Hey Power Swords are +1str now, we know Banshees actually needs it over Marines, but... Marines get it first, and who knows when CWE gets its"
I'm hoping that GW releases a free general "Upgrade" Faq for all armies and not just new Codices.
Exactly! We can live until the codex with the rules we have, but at least update the points to the new statlines...
For example, we are paying 3 more points for a Kabalite for a reason, thats for sure, but it looks like we are not entitled to see the reason yet... and that is frustrating when some people already knows why their stuff has changed.
The app would seem like an obvious way to give all/most of the factions their codexes at the same time. The hard copies could foloow later due to logistics.
The electronic format would also allow them to leave out units with models yet-to-be-released.
harlokin wrote: The app would seem like an obvious way to give all/most of the factions their codexes at the same time. The hard copies could foloow later due to logistics.
The electronic format would also allow them to leave out units with models yet-to-be-released.
Yeah... its not like the 2 large Star Wars games don't already do this and everyone loves it.....
I’m not saying it’s right or fair or whatever. In a perfect world, they would have all the releases planned for the same time.
I’m saying that I’ve given up attempting to read GW mind. They’ve removed units/armies/games that I love. They’ve replaced their entire flagship army with something new. Just when I though I had them pegged, they go and change something up seemingly at a whim. I’m just going to play it by ear and I’ll figure it out when I get there. For the time being, I’ll just continue to build models I like and with any luck they’ll be usable when the codex drops. Or they won’t, then they’ll sit on my shelf until they are good.
Poison needs 3+ to wound and -1 APimo, or double the rate of fire with 3+ to wound.
The Bombers bomb is quite useless now. I hate MW anyway. Just make it massively powerful and at least 3 wounds per hit or make it a Titan killer. Strength 16, 4d6 wounds or something. It's one use only anyway.
Really?! I like the idea of mortal wounds when done the right way. The thing is (in my opinion anyway) it probably does more with the mortal wounds obsession abilities in phoenix rising. For the most part mortal wound bombers just suck and even though ours wounds on a 3+ it's only one time use. It's a rather shame the void raven's missiles and bomb were made pretty terrible in 8th. I dunno how 9th has changed our void lances.
I really wish heat lances would be decent. Back in the day if you took them in fairly small units you could boost up to an enemy vehicle, half range it and blast it apart. The damage should be good at close range but it very much puts our reavers in death range like most blaster units (obsidian rose probably being the exception here). Part of the issue with heat lances is scourge armed with them are useless, talos might be too slow and short ranged to make em work and reavers while being a good unit for them have the issue of possibly dying right after. The main issue with heat lances (at least in 8th) is that they'd probably be best against monstrous infantry type units (hive guard), ap -5 tends not to be a big deal because anything with a 2+ armor save almost always has an invulnerable save and str 6 is seriously bad esp. when not given a good obsession vs things like custodes bikes or enemies with lots of wounds. 2d6 takes the highest d6 damage is nice but i can't help but wonder if there should be a better damage profile for melta. If 9th has changed this i apologize as i don't have the new rules.
Denegaar wrote: Yeah, poison weapons feel underwhelming vs everything thougher than an elf.
And please, they should make our characters work inside vehicles, it makes no sense that the captain of a pirate ship is useless inside his boat, it should be even better! and right now for using him, he has to run behind...
Kabals and Cults are really key parts of the army, and right now they are just a mess, they make no sense rules-wise or lore-wise.
I always felt that any character with an aura should apply it to whatever they are embarked in, be it a fortification, or transport, kind of like how a KFF applies to the vehicle the mek is riding in.
I've already had this discussion with people. I basically agree with character auras applying to units they're in the same transport in but i've also stated that i think open topped vehicles or certain specific transports should allow auras to effect units outside of them. That way an archon could be in any transport we have and basically give his aura to anybody nearby. Sadly we can't get this and we can't even get scourge wings, a hellion, a reaver jetbike or a dais of destruction type transport thing for our leaders because GW seriously gives no craps about us. Keep in mind CWE have probably all of these options and more. I think they even have personal warp jump capabilities for their leaders. When it comes to new units and new unit options we are pretty much the red-headed step eldar.
Really?! I like the idea of mortal wounds when done the right way.
Mortal wounds always feel like a gimmick to me. And I don't like fussing around with gimmicks.
9 times outta 10 mortal wounds abilities are: does a single MW on a unit on a 4+ or does d3 MW on a unit on a roll of a 6. I just don't care, it won't do anything significant thats even worth my time looking at. I'll use it if it's there, but I'm not going to build a strategy around it.
If the bomb did 2d6MW to an enemy unit, then we're talking. I can do a lot of damage with that. But as is, maximum 10 hits on a 3+ just equals out to roughly 6/7 wounds or 3 dead marines. Either that or a Laughable 2 wounds to a vehicle or monster. Dropping this thing on anything but a heavily armoured infantry unit is just a waste of firepower, but now marines are all 2 wounds so it really doesn't do much anymore.
I agree in the situations you're describing Brutus. That said when an attack does a mortal wound on a 5+ or 6+ based on an attack or charge and esp. if that can be boosted with something somehow then it can be decent. Part of the problem i have however is most vehicles don't have invulnerable saves or their invulnerable saves are vs ranged weapons. Sadly our melee is usually crap outside of anything that isn't basic GEQ infantry except for grotesques and talos. I still think the 5+ to mortal wound per model on a charge obsessions we have are pretty good. It's sort of a shame wych cult's version is only good vs infantry, monsters and bikes but usually those are the only things with invulnerable saves that are good or with invulnerable saves that are active in melee as well.
Personally in the case of haywire i can't stand those mortal wounds because vehicles tend to have far too many wounds in the first place. That said knights invulnerable save only works during the shooting phase as far as i can tell which is a good thing.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Sadly our melee is usually crap outside of anything that isn't basic GEQ infantry except for grotesques and talos.
I think that Incubi are decent, with Lethal Precision being potentially good for shifting Marines off objectives. Delivery is still a problem, hopefully we will get some sort of 'charge out of open topped' rule.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I agree in the situations you're describing Brutus. That said when an attack does a mortal wound on a 5+ or 6+ based on an attack or charge and esp. if that can be boosted with something somehow then it can be decent.
I'd agree with this, though I'd add the caveat that the attack has to be decent without the mortal wounds.
e.g. Mandrake Baneblasts are okay with 2 S4 AP-1 shots. However, the same can't be said for, say, the Flesh Gauntlet on a Haemonculus. 5 S3 AP0 D1 attacks, weeee.
Also, when we come to the 'can be boosted somehow' part, we're unfortunately rather short on ways to accomplish that. Either we have zero ways to buff things (we're sadly absent a Mandrake Lord who could give Mandrakes rerolls to wound against an enemy), or else the buffs simply don't synergise with the Mortal Wounds (e.g. Urien gives Grotesques +1S, which is fine for their cleavers but far less useful to their gauntlets than +1 to wound).
To put it another way, I think we'd need a way to buff the wound roll for these weapons - so that either we cause Mortal Wounds on 5+ or else on 6s but with full rerolls. Anything less and it's too unreliable to be anything more than a gimmick.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I was just thinking of competitive ways to make our army work in the new edition.
What if our whole army got flickerfields?
The entire army gets -1 to hit modifier for being super fast a stealth.
It puts enemies at a disadvantage, but obviously it can't be boosted further because of the rules.
I'd been wondering about something along these lines.
Main issue would be for stuff like Mandrakes, as it seems like it drains their flavour a fair bit and because of the stupid cap they can't even have better stealth now.
I don't think we have a durability problem if I am honest. Not entirely anyway, venoms are not worth it anymore but it wasn't just a sudden fall from grace. The were too cheap for their durability at the start of 8th and now I would wager they have just crept into being too expensive, but my main issue with them has always been their terrible damage output. Folks STILL think they have decent fire power because once upon a time in 5th edition they could drop the new nidzilla with their 3-4 wound monsters easily with their 12 shots.
4 editions later and the average big onster has a minimum of 8 wounds and the splinter canons range went from 36 down to 18"
Honestly they need to finally do two things, make poison wound on a 2+ and give it that 6th fething seat. Then I am OK with it.
We shouldn't get lost here and blame all the issues on the transport though. It has it's own specific problems but it's not the entire equation. Warriors are way over priced now, they usually were paired with venoms as small gun boats, well that whole package just went through the roof, but part of it is the infantry and not the venom.
I think the army gets a massive boost if they revisit the wargear. As a stop gap I would like them to errata the poison entry to 2+ and later they can touch on each piece of kit and cost.
I mean, if all power weapon become +1 strength I have no problem with that so long as Klaives become damage 2 or +2 strength.
Theres many things like that one example, too many to make a laundry list at the moment, but this is just what happens with an edition change sometimes, none of the nerfs (beyond the moronic infantry pricing) seem intentional and mostly just laziness or looked past.
On a side note, I think it is important for folks to try and revisit the old "bad" units. I am finding hellions surprisingly good and some of the beast packs are very useful again too. It's also nice to see incubi and wyches in the mix again.
My advice is to minimize the amount of poison your fielding. If it sucks, and it does, then try to avoid it.
Wyches are flat better then warriors now. Plasma grenade and blast coupled with dirt cheap blast pistols and overwatch getting nerfed really makes them my go to troop now. That makes me happy actually since that hasn't been the case since the tail end run of the 3.5 codex.
Raiders are finally not just the equal to venoms and are currently just better in every way IMO. I'd even rate the dark lance as better firepower at this point. As amish said earlier DT overcharged venoms are probably the only still valid venom option but I'd honestly still rather field a 3 damage dissie.
So in summary I guess I am saying, use this adversity as an opportunity to learn the army better. Honestly I have played the army since the fugly 3rd ed release sculpts, and this is nothing new, but oddly when the army is on fire like it was here in 8th I find myself wanting to play other armies I own. I kind of like having the army that plays like an unforgiving two edged sword. I have to almost play two games, one with the enemy and another with myself. I am actually more excited to play the army again and surprise folks with the odd ball units they rarely use or see (even in batreps). Hellions are dirt cheap and have been for a hot minute, they look killer too. I encourage you guys to try them out again. That damage two is ironically one of the best solutions we have ATM to marines and vehicles especially with test of skill verse the later.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Mortal Wounds bypass invulnerable saves also though, do they not?
You normally need to look how the invulnerable or -1 to hit behaves. In some instances it's a bubble aura or hero power and may have limited distance to said -1 to hit target before it goes away. Also -1 to hit might just effect shooting and very rarely melee. Invulnerable saves have a lot of the same ways to solve them as -1 to hit. Not all are similar but there's usually something you can do. Mortal wounds seem to effect them both without issue though.
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Brutus_Apex wrote: I was just thinking of competitive ways to make our army work in the new edition.
What if our whole army got flickerfields?
The entire army gets -1 to hit modifier for being super fast a stealth.
It puts enemies at a disadvantage, but obviously it can't be boosted further because of the rules.
That or we get some of our old interesting 5th ed codex gear again. Make huskblades and hex rifles good again. Undo the damage to shadowfield and bring back clone field. Make splinter racks not suck, give mercenaries whatever boost their sub faction they're a part of gets or give them their very own obsessions for mercs, make fear ability matter, give us a super heavy, new units in general would be nice, bring the 2 scrapped units and 5 scrapped characters and make the ossefactor less of a joke. Give some of our poisoned weapons more ap, more weapons types and good ones to our bikes, give our characters better movement from riding something or don't scare up their bubble aura ability in a transport. If you're done with all that my small want is to see some new esoteric and strange while horrifying covens weapons and fix finecast grotesques. Grotesques are probably the only model left ya got wrong and still won't fix. That is one fix I wouldn't mind seeing done in plastic even with no new options.
Venom's with double cannons:
Flayed Skull versus MEQ: 1.5
Flayed Skull versus MEQ in cover: 1.5
DT/MoM versus MEQ in cover: 2 wounds
DT/MoM versus MEQ out of cover: 4 wounds
Amishprn86 wrote: Venom's with double cannons:
Flayed Skull versus MEQ: 1.5
Flayed Skull versus MEQ in cover: 1.5
DT/MoM versus MEQ in cover: 2 wounds
DT/MoM versus MEQ out of cover: 4 wounds
Oss+Hex vs MEQs in Cover: Roughly 2.33 wounds? Approximating that the Ossefactor causes 1MW as it has a bit less than a 50% chance to cause its 2 wounds
Shredder kabs vs MEQs in cover: 2.0 wounds.
Basically if not in cover and assuming all MEQs go to W2 the dark techno+MM guys definitely do outperform solidly, if they are a bit more swingy (because it's a bunch of shots vs literally 2 shots out of the transport). If it's in cover, they're close to parity for the points, and the shredder kabs are going to do much better vs anything W1, or anything the Ossefactor can't kill with 1 shot.
harlokin wrote: Is there a way of factoring in the impact and cost of 'overcharging' and rolling a 1 while using DT?
Its pretty negligible. within the wrack squad it just kills 1 wrack with no weapon, and on the venom it just does 1 damage.
It's still a situation of "The Kabalites are more generalist, and less effective in this one particular situation of your opponent presenting you with specifically W2 3+ models that are perfect for popping with the D2 Ossefactor."
If we compared the Kabs with the Wracks in a meta of Ork Boyz blobs, the kabs would greatly outperform there.
In the current MEQ meta, yup, you always want the wracks.
Do people even take poison anymore? It's mostly worthless against MEQ armies due to armor esp in cover (unless things changed with cover). Also the only thing that can spam it really well are scourge which suck and mandrakes or shredders probably do the job better. Ofc dissies beat all of them esp. Given the marine meta.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Do people even take poison anymore? It's mostly worthless against MEQ armies due to armor esp in cover (unless things changed with cover). Also the only thing that can spam it really well are scourge which suck and mandrakes or shredders probably do the job better. Ofc dissies beat all of them esp. Given the marine meta.
DT/MoM is the only way people take it, 2D and hits of 6 counts as a wound is really good. But i'm with you, my DT list is all Raiders, every sense IH first came out i'd been running 10+ DT Raiders. I've table marine players a few times (post Dread silliness). With 9th i cant do that anymore b.c of points (150pts for the 10 raiders, 15pts for each wrack, 10?pts for each haemon, just 1 raider and 1 wrack is 30pts more, that is a large difference when compare to marines increas)
I can do 7 Raiders now with 6 Talos. But i'm thinking of not doing that anymore as well b.c Marines are about to get an INSANE boost in over all damage. Even if their points as a whole goes it, the damage ratio is still going to be higher.
I do run wych cults currently but only for the reaver bikes. I'm not sure if 9th needs heat lances or blasters. Heat lances can be iffy vs t7 compared to blasters but vs t8, t6 or lower it should be better. My issue is outside of knights and guard tanks t8 isn't really frequent. Blaster one d6 damage rather than heat lance half range 2d6 take the highest really bugs me though (also heard melta is +2 damage now). Heat lance also might be ok vs custodes and their bikes now. If marines are the meta I probably would prefer blasters but I'm so disappointed in their damage. I'd rather play them proxies than have to rip off their guns again. I really should green stuff or tack that crap on. Magnets may be a blessing here but I never used them before.
I'm wondering if I should do scourge or warriors with shredders again. Scourge would ds easier but even with the cost increase I wonder if 40-60 warriors would do ok out of deep strike with shredders. I also heard blasts got better in 9th. I'd probably just go for dissie jets with test of skill instead.
HL are fine in Wych b.c of ToS, +1 to wound makes them better than Blasters vs T8 b.c you are wounding on 4+ for both but now you are also 2D6 pick best at 1/2 range. Its also good to kill high wound elites like 3+ wound units (bikes, Aggressors, Centurion's, Nobs/Mega, etc..)
The problem is you are very limited on where you can take them with traits like DT and ToS, they are terrible on Scourges b.c there is no buffs.
I'd never want heat lances on scourge or even consider it in 8th at least. Actually blasters with test of skill wound t8 on 3s whereas for heat lances it's 4s. If you had to advance to shoot heat lances in half range then it's an issue of 4s to hit sadly but also no charge which may or may not be a problem. Not sure about heat lances on talos. I've never tried. I fear their move and attack range is short for heat lances to want to move up quickly enough.
I am considering shredders and and what can take them after insane the boosts they have. Sadly they'd be garbage vs elite custodes infantry. I may need dissie spam all over just to handle these shenanigans. Outside of that 3 squads of 5 scourge (15 total) with 12 shredders could be a bit fun with the new rules.
Not saying HL's are generally better (I haven't seen the math), but if you wanted to play them at least there are 2 traits that makes them .... a little more reliable. Also some like HL's on Reavers as character killers, 200 odd points can out right kill a character and charge something else. Though I personally don't like it. But its ab option if someone wanted to try it.
I used to like that ability of character killing but I honestly found flyers or venoms with troops inside better at that job.
I think I may go for heat lances on reavers but more for monster and vehicle killing which should make test of skill a good thing to have. It could also be good for fighting custodes bikers. The big issue is I'd probably need to advance to fire heat lances at half range and If I do then I can't charge. As I said before however the low damage potential of blasters is getting to me and usually if you're close enough to shoot reaver blasters then you're close enough to be charged by anything worth its weight in melee.
Hopefully Xenos gets the upgrade treatment imperial is getting and some of our D6 goes to D6+2 or D3+3 (blaster/HL) like how imperial is for some of their weapons.
Yeah and maybe make dissies, poison and haywire decent again. It'd be cool to see lances have a special effect too like they used to have on vehicles.
Heat lances should be a great weapon with everything but strength. Melta is supposed to be getting better. I can't imagine heavy bolters getting better without dissies becoming much better than that. Dark eldar have things that harvest energy from stolen suns and in some cases incorporate old eldar tech before the fall that can destroy stars. It's a shame we don't have as many cool sounding weapons like ossefactor. Ofc ossefactor isn't too good right now.
harlokin wrote: Is there a way of factoring in the impact and cost of 'overcharging' and rolling a 1 while using DT?
Its pretty negligible. within the wrack squad it just kills 1 wrack with no weapon, and on the venom it just does 1 damage.
It's still a situation of "The Kabalites are more generalist, and less effective in this one particular situation of your opponent presenting you with specifically W2 3+ models that are perfect for popping with the D2 Ossefactor."
If we compared the Kabs with the Wracks in a meta of Ork Boyz blobs, the kabs would greatly outperform there.
In the current MEQ meta, yup, you always want the wracks.
I thought it was per model, meaning wracks lose the gunner first and only which sucks.
Amishprn86 wrote: Hopefully Xenos gets the upgrade treatment imperial is getting and some of our D6 goes to D6+2 or D3+3 (blaster/HL) like how imperial is for some of their weapons.
Hopefully. D6 anti tank weapons are either decent or embarrassingly poor. We need something to lower the resilience of both tanks and monsters.
Then again gw made dissies and similar all the more needed with marines getting wound boost for a barely an increase in points. Shredders sound ok against them but nothing fantastic esp. Due to 2 wounds.
It's a shame. I'd have loved for light infantry to have a slight bit more purpose besides objective secured but everything seems to have a use except for them.
I mean, a big part of the problem is the complete lack of variety in our weapons.
Better hope tanks and titanic stuff will fall to Dark Lances, because all our infantry can offer is 'more Dark Lances', 'Assault Dark Lances' and 'Pistol Dark Lances'.
And you'd better also hope that every other threat can be dealt with via S* AP0 D1 Poison 4+ weapons, because that makes up about 90% of our remaining arsenal.
I mean, if they make Dark Lances more reliable, I'm fine with them. But Poison needs a major tweak because right now outside of Dark Techomancers (seriously, Poison in Covens) it does nothing against the field.
Denegaar wrote: I mean, if they make Dark Lances more reliable, I'm fine with them.
The sad thing is, the current version of Dark Lances is still by far the best and most reliable they've been since at least 5th.
I can't be the only one who still remembers back in 7th edition, when it took (on average) 3 Ravagers firing at a IG Chimera for 3 entire rounds in order to get a single 'vehicle destroyed' result.
Denegaar wrote: But Poison needs a major tweak because right now outside of Dark Techomancers (seriously, Poison in Covens) it does nothing against the field.
Absolutely agree.
Incidentally, comparing Poison Tongue to Dark Technomancers is just depressing.
We need some type of either Docs, Tides, Sacrad rites, or Special ammo for our Lances/Poison. That lone (army wide) would be perfect.
An idea i had was
Pick a specialist and one of the specialist traits, your army gains that rules for the rest of the battle
2CP stratagem to change it once per game.
Poison specialist re-roll wounds of 1 with poison weapons
-1ap with poison weapons
+1 to wound with poison weapons
Heavy Specialist While embarked treat all heavy weapons as assault
Can advance and shoot heavies as if they were assault
+1 to hit if remained stationary
Raiding Specialist: "units with fly or transports"
Gain +3" movement
Gain a 5++ vs shooting attacks even while engaged
Gain a 6" disembarked instead of 3"
This gives you a a diverse set of options, yes you can change this the point is the idea. Poison, Heavy, and Fly (aka move fast) options to buff.
Mercenaries are another part of our book to look at, they need some kind of synergy with the army, right now they make no sense...
Maybe something like paying a tax so they join the army in exchange to new rules, then they'll feel like real mercenaries. something like:
- Pay the tithe: At the beginning of the round, you may pay 2CP, if you do, your Mercenaries gain the obsession of the detachment they belong until the end of it.
Maybe gaining the obsession is awkward to the lore, but you get the idea.
They could bring back the modern version of the "Lance" special rule and allow all Darklight weaponry to re-roll failed to wound rolls against vehicles or something.
Denegaar wrote: Mercenaries are another part of our book to look at, they need some kind of synergy with the army, right now they make no sense...
Maybe something like paying a tax so they join the army in exchange to new rules, then they'll feel like real mercenaries. something like:
- Pay the tithe: At the beginning of the round, you may pay 2CP, if you do, your Mercenaries gain the obsession of the detachment they belong until the end of it.
Maybe gaining the obsession is awkward to the lore, but you get the idea.
That would have honestly fixed things so very much. Imagine heat lance scourge DS'ing in with 24" and therefore 12" half range for double damage due to obsidian rose. They might actually have a use for once....maybe. They'd still die instantly though and need you to kill infantry screens properly but at least they'd have a use.
Incubi gain +1 strength from Experimental Creations making their weapons hit at str 6 and combined with drazhar become decent again.
Mandrakes get Acrobatic Display and therefore get 4+ inv. save in melee.
We can give them some decent skills.
@Brutus_Apex:
That or they could make it more like it was when vehicles had an armor value of 12 and reduce toughness of a vehicle or monster instead. For instance if it's above 6 or then drop it down to 6. That or force the toughness to go down by 1 or 2 regardless of what it is and only for the lance weapon shooting it. That way something that is normally toughness 8 goes down to toughness 7 whenever a lance hits it with no stacking or a t7 unit drops down to t6 or similar.
Amishprn86 wrote: Well Scourges ARE Kabals in the lore.... so IDK why they don't have Kabal keyword.
Yea they are wealthy kabs that pay to basically be couriers for the Don Bosses. It's hilarious that the court (half anyway) gets the obsession but not the scourges.
Back to tactics, DT wracks with liquifiers are funny for when they really pop off, but your almost guaranteed to lose one if not both when they fire. But they have some serious damage potential. I think ossefactors and hexrifles are a better more flexible and safer combo though.
I always takea Ossefactor or a Hexrifle on a unit or 2, even though i do play DT all the time, id on't take the weapons for DT i take so i can FnF lol.
Amishprn86 wrote: Well Scourges ARE Kabals in the lore.... so IDK why they don't have Kabal keyword.
Yea they are wealthy kabs that pay to basically be couriers for the Don Bosses. It's hilarious that the court (half anyway) gets the obsession but not the scourges.
Back to tactics, DT wracks with liquifiers are funny for when they really pop off, but your almost guaranteed to lose one if not both when they fire. But they have some serious damage potential. I think ossefactors and hexrifles are a better more flexible and safer combo though.
Was i one of the ones that proposed this idea with them in raiders? I think i asked if you could take 2 minimum squads of 5 and have a liquifier acothyst so you could have 4 liquifiers per raider. It might be a bit pricey now though. I was gonna plan for that but i think at the end of the day i settled on 36 reaver bikes spam with blasters, test of skill, grav talons (4+ to charge per grav talon model is a mortal wound) and the slashing impact (mortal wounds on a 5+ per model on a charge vs infantry, bikes and monsters). Part of the reason i settled for reavers is because you only need mortal wounds on most of the things they can attack and not much else. I may change my mind however given the opponent i faced that said a chaos lord was legit riding a vehicle mount. I'm kinda wondering if that was legit honestly.
I haven't tested my list with 36 bikes yet and it could be good but i dunno if it would be with 9th ed and points changes. Still bikes didn't get hit as hard from points costs as much as most of our other units from what i can gather.
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Scourge with Test of Skill or Dark Technomancers would also be magical. In fact it suits them so much i'm shocked you can't give them either. Test of skill because they normally hunt monsters and vehicles anyway and dark technomancers because wounding more easily, doing more damage and possibly dying in the process fits a suicide anti-tank and anti-monster unit in 8th edition and possibly 9th too. It's actually kind of pitiful they don't get that ability.
I mean haywire with a 3+ to mortal wound and 5+ for d3 mortal wounds. That or just something that gives extra wounds. Even 30 scourge popping out of DS with shots that do 2 damage each or even shredders that do 2 damage per wound. It's such wasted potential honestly. Scourge could legit be kings but they instead became peasants. How very sad.
Amishprn86 wrote: We need some type of either Docs, Tides, Sacrad rites, or Special ammo for our Lances/Poison. That lone (army wide) would be perfect.
An idea i had was
Pick a specialist and one of the specialist traits, your army gains that rules for the rest of the battle
2CP stratagem to change it once per game.
Poison specialist re-roll wounds of 1 with poison weapons
-1ap with poison weapons
+1 to wound with poison weapons
Heavy Specialist While embarked treat all heavy weapons as assault
Can advance and shoot heavies as if they were assault
+1 to hit if remained stationary
Raiding Specialist: "units with fly or transports"
Gain +3" movement
Gain a 5++ vs shooting attacks even while engaged
Gain a 6" disembarked instead of 3"
This gives you a a diverse set of options, yes you can change this the point is the idea. Poison, Heavy, and Fly (aka move fast) options to buff.
poison specialist is fine, I think Heavy Specialist is potentially pretty abusable with Ravagers/Reapers and the +1 to hit if stationary bit.
Raiding specialist would get pretty wacky with Flayed Skull XD and I don't understand the second bit - is that not how the 5++ saves work right now? If I'm within 1" of you it's still a shooting attack, which is what's specified by the various 5++ rules...
Personally I think they're just a little bit over the power bar that we saw with the Sisters Rites, but I love the idea of something unifying your splintered Dark Eldar force. I would trim it to 2 rules at maximum personally. I think it'd be really cool if it were based around what the raid is supposed to be doing. An alternative version I'd propose:
Culling
-1AP with poison weapons
INFANTRY models ignore the penalty to hit with Heavy weapons if they moved
Prisoner Raid
Units embarked within transports may disembark after the transport has moved. Any units that do so may not move further in the movement phase.
All units treat the Power from Pain track as being 1 turn higher than it is
Lightning Strike
All models with FLY can either shoot or charge on a turn they made a Fall Back move
All models ignore the penalty to hit for Advancing and firing Assault weapons, and Rapid Fire weapons become Assault weapons (e.g. rapid fire 1 becomes assault 1) if the unit made an Advance move
This looks like a fun take on a list I ran back in December. I didn't take the cult though (was running 1500 pts). I came to the conclusion that raiders were much better then the venoms, the extra durability especially now in 9th with venoms kind of losing out on stacking hit mods and the increase in +1 to saves from cover in general seem to have reinforced that conclusion I would imagine. Scary how much less durable PoF Talos are now that the meta has ramped up so much. They went from tough as nails to meh pretty fast.
This looks like a fun take on a list I ran back in December. I didn't take the cult though (was running 1500 pts). I came to the conclusion that raiders were much better then the venoms, the extra durability especially now in 9th with venoms kind of losing out on stacking hit mods and the increase in +1 to saves from cover in general seem to have reinforced that conclusion I would imagine. Scary how much less durable PoF Talos are now that the meta has ramped up so much. They went from tough as nails to meh pretty fast.
I think the reasoning behind venoms over raiders boils down to the composition of the field. With DT venoms are doing flat 2 damage, vs flat 3 damage on a DT'd dissie raider. You run into a whoooooooole lot of W2 these days.
Sure, but wounding on 2's and drilling through armor is still good. You also can do it for longer (more wounds) or choose to stop and still kill 2w marines.
In the end I'd probably say take some of each. Why not, more fun, keeps them on their toes with decisions a bit more and you get some variety.
The damage 3 though REALLY shines verse heavier elites and vehicles. Killing a custode with every failed 4++ is insane next to ap- venom fire. It also will be well worth it to put extra damage on some armies, death guard for example.
I do like the venoms, but from my experience I always seemed to drain 2 wounds off (two weapons) before they ever were targeted and a 4 wound venom is pretty easy to deal with. Or I'd get shot up and only have 1-2 wounds left and it becomes much sketchier to overcharge.
If you want to run madrakes I would really consider "Idoneth Deepkin Namarti Thralls" as a subtetute model.
While the mandrake model is one of the best by GW. It is very hard to justefy the price. While I personaly do not mind finecast (I thought it was great) it is a hassel fixing up models that have airbubbels, and ads a lot of time. Also, they are expensive.
vipoid wrote: Out of mild curiosity, has anyone used an army containing 20-30 Mandrakes?
Ive used 3x5 but thats it b.c thats all i have lol.
Well, that might be a wiser way of running them anyway.
Have you had much success with them?
Niiai wrote: If you want to run madrakes I would really consider "Idoneth Deepkin Namarti Thralls" as a subtetute model.
While the mandrake model is one of the best by GW. It is very hard to justefy the price. While I personaly do not mind finecast (I thought it was great) it is a hassel fixing up models that have airbubbels, and ads a lot of time. Also, they are expensive.
I have also considered dryads, as they come with runes. Dryad pictures curtesey of Meet my Minies ( https://meetmyminis.tumblr.com/ .)
Thank you for the suggestion.
I've often wondered about a Mandrake-themed army. And at the moment I'm just looking for any project that might reignite my enthusiasm for 40k. But, yeah, the official models are a bit limited for use in any significant quantity, especially given the two repeats per 5.
I think my aim would be to convert a few of the official Mandrake models into HQs, and then use entirely different models for the actual Mandrakes in the list. Namarti Thralls do look like good substitutes, though I also quite like Dryads as well. I even got a few Sylvaneth Tree Revenants a while back, though they preoved a little bigger than I expected.
Anyway, looks like I'll have to have a think.
On the mechanics side (and I apologise if this is a weird question), which of our HQs do you think is the most Mandrake-like - the Archon or the Haemonculus?
- The Archon has the Huskblade, which seems fairly close to Mandrake weapons. And if I go Poison Tongue (ugh) then he could have the Soul Seeker, which seems about the closest he can get in terms of ranged weapons. However, his Shadowfield bears basically zero resemblance to the defensive abilities of Mandrakes and I don't like that it can be permanently lost.
- The Haemonculus has a native 5++ and I guess the Hexrifle could be seen as a long-range Baleblast, but I don't think any of his melee weapons are particularly Mandrake-like. Though he can at least be taken in an Experimental Creations detachment for +1S. He's also noticeably slower than the Mandrakes.
Also, I was also wondering whether there were any other mechanical ways to try and bring across a strong Mandrake theme (in terms of unit selection, upgrades etc.). Obviously I can try and go for an appropriate aesthetic, but it would be nice if it actually felt like a Mandrake-themed army, rather than merely looking like one.
The frustrating thing about how our army works atm is that it seems like I could bring 30 of the sods and they'd still feel tacked-on.
I think using the offisial mandrake models as character sound like an excelent idea! They would fit for both (or even all three) character choises if you make different colourpaterns. But it would perhaps be best as an Acron. I could imagine a mandrake getting arcon status, with some catpawns to be his puppets while they are the power behind the throne. (From a lore perspective.)
You probbably needs some troops in your list. All DE troops are priced very high these days, so it would be a very small number of models.
If you go the haemoculy way perhaps you can use deepkin as mandrakes, and just use dryads as count as wracks. They sertanly look creepy and sturdy. Also, all AOS models are much more cheap unless you go for more elite models.
Perhaps even the bigger tremen models could be shaped into being one of the other constructs?
Well, Mandrake have a shooting weapon and this should be reflected by the proxy models.
Mandrakes have more a harassing role in a Drukhari army.
Early occupation of mission objectives and slowing down the enemy by correct deployment come to my mind.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Mandrake have a shooting weapon and this should be reflected by the proxy models.
Given that their shooting attack is represented just by some fire around their hands, how would you suggest representing it on proxy models?
Niiai wrote: I think using the offisial mandrake models as character sound like an excelent idea! They would fit for both (or even all three) character choises if you make different colourpaterns. But it would perhaps be best as an Acron. I could imagine a mandrake getting arcon status, with some catpawns to be his puppets while they are the power behind the throne. (From a lore perspective.)
Yes, that sounds like an excellent idea. Are you thinking, perhaps, that the Mandrake-Archon would allow one or both of the others to believe that they were really the ones in charge, whilst subtly manipulating them?
If you go the haemoculy way perhaps you can use deepkin as mandrakes, and just use dryads as count as wracks. They sertanly look creepy and sturdy. Also, all AOS models are much more cheap unless you go for more elite models.
Perhaps even the bigger tremen models could be shaped into being one of the other constructs?
Hmm, now that's something to consider. It would certainly make sense for Mandrakes to bring some daemonic 'friends' with them.
I haven't used mandrakes in 9th yet but in 8th I ran 2x10 quite a few times. They have always been really strong and I don't see that changing in 9th.
having ten man units means they can commit to harder targets and also that your opponent will really struggle to thin them down before they have an impact.
In 9th I can see running them on foot as well as in raiders. I was running one 10 man squad on a raider toward the end of 8th and it was much better then most would expect. It's a real PITA for your opponent to chew through the raider then have to deal with 10 of them, meaning they can really control a large table area. Nobody wants to go near that raider, or to commit the firepower to drop everything. It's similar to how folks use incubi now, only I prefer them as they can shoot 18" off any part of the hull, meaning they are always doing stuff.
I want to try all 20 in raiders at some point in 9th. They basically have the durability of a wrack, combat of a wych and firepower of a kabalyte rolled into one model lol. Actually, they are better in 2 out of three of those situations. With our troops being so pricy now I can easily justify running these as replacements.
A Mandrake themed army sounds awesome, I wish we had Kheradruakh.
The Dryad counts-as look really nice, and are a very inexpensive option. From a geeky point of view I like the idea of them as the word "Mandrake" relates to plants.
vipoid wrote: Out of mild curiosity, has anyone used an army containing 20-30 Mandrakes?
Ive used 3x5 but thats it b.c thats all i have lol.
Well, that might be a wiser way of running them anyway.
Have you had much success with them?
Yeah they work great and I love them. I always take 1 unit of 5 no matter what, i like 2 units but i just don't have the points for 3 a lot of the times for what I want.
I'm also interested in using Mandrakes as a harassing unit, but am waiting for the new Warcry Shadowstalker warband to come out for conversions. I think they fit the aesthetic perfectly as Mandrakes in a Wych Cult army.
Would it be silly to put 5-man Mandrake units in Venoms, flying around and Baleblasting things?
harlokin wrote: A Mandrake themed army sounds awesome, I wish we had Kheradruakh.
I'm sure it's no secret at this point that I'd love to have a generic Mandrake HQ to play with.
Though failing that, I just wish they could get a bit more support from our regular HQs (or even just our Kabals/Covens/Cults). It seems a shame that they have no synergy with anything else in the army.
harlokin wrote: The Dryad counts-as look really nice, and are a very inexpensive option. From a geeky point of view I like the idea of them as the word "Mandrake" relates to plants.
Yeah they work great and I love them. I always take 1 unit of 5 no matter what, i like 2 units but i just don't have the points for 3 a lot of the times for what I want.
Ah, that's good to know. I might try and start with that then and see if I want to scale up.
Oaka wrote: I'm also interested in using Mandrakes as a harassing unit, but am waiting for the new Warcry Shadowstalker warband to come out for conversions. I think they fit the aesthetic perfectly as Mandrakes in a Wych Cult army.
Oh man, so many choices when it comes to proxy models.
Oaka wrote: Would it be silly to put 5-man Mandrake units in Venoms, flying around and Baleblasting things?
Not quite the same but early in 8th I had a 5-man Mandrake unit flying around in a Raider with my Archon. I'd done it mainly as a fluffy thing, as I had similar ideas back then, but on a much smaller scale. Plus I just liked the idea of my Achon being accompanied by a unit that could both fight and shoot. I'd often deep strike said unit to try and get it into a good position early on.
As for performance, I'd say it was okay at best. It would sometimes do a decent job of holding an objective, but generally it only ever held ones that were barely contested to begin with - it was typically other units that did the real dirty work of forcing enemies off heavily contested objectives. At the very least, it never really felt like I was getting my points' worth out of the unit.
However, I think it's important to note that the issue with regard to cost-effectiveness lay less with the Mandrakes or their transport and more with the useless meatsack of an Archon they were stuck guarding. Partially because he practically doubled the cost of the unit whilst adding very little firepower (I'd had hopes of using him to snipe enemy Characters with Soul Seeker, but reality brought a swift end to that idea), and contributing bugger-all else. It also meant that I tended to be much more cautious with the unit in general, as I was typically trying to avoid giving up a Warlord point, so it generally only entered melee against soft targets (whereas my 'spare' Archon was entirely expendable and thus could be thrown in a suicidal manner at any target I liked).
I think the tactic is definitely worth at least testing, albeit just with Mandrakes (and ideally multiple squads for redundancy).
Incidentally, I might actually have written up battle-reports for a few games with that unit (this was back in 8th, but still). Would you like me to see if I can find them?
There's a lot of stuff in the dark eldar range that could use more background, new options or a host of models added to them.
I wish we could get half the crap they talk about in the lore. In one case we hear about a gas that forces the occupants of a vessel to laugh in terror while being unable to stop the ship plummeting onto an imperial spire below or something (wtf made this gas the Joker?). In another in the psychic awakening book for us in a battlefield scenario dark eldar were surgically altered so much they could pose as imperial guard in order to mislead imperial guard forces into attacking the ynnari. In another some mist shoots off into the air that forces the enemy forces to tear each other apart. In yet others there are all sorts of traps and similar or subtle things done in order to take down their enemies. For instance the kabal that terrifies the enemy due to hijacking radio comms of the enemy to terrify them so they can gain more from their souls for later. The options are truly endless but more for Coven and Kabal units. That said the beastmasters different beast options (they could get more of em), coven units in general (they should have more types or similar things to scourge which are heavily modified dark eldar) and maybe give kabals some super heavy skimmer outside of forge world much like the tantalus.
Basically if the things i suggested in my previous paragraph were put in from game terms we could have units attacking other units possibly based on the melee strength and weapons of that unit or possibly doing flat out mortal wounds. We could also have a paralyzing ability against some units so they can't move or maybe it'd prevent them from attacking or something. Think of it like at best a once a turn psychic power that needs to work right to go off. In the surgically altered dark eldar route it could be useful as ambushing units or allowing us to place a few enemy units in other spots after deployment. Think of it a bit like the gsc ambush or the reveal where each of your units are based on blip tokens. In the terror option you could make it so that enemy leadership starts lower or that morale checks are double the results they normally are or something similar. Also give some useful mortal wounds causing abilities due to fear based morale checks. That would be fantastic for us.
Ofc i'm asking for too much here. Asking for stuff GW will actually give us they'll most likely remake an old finecast model that had little wrong with it (probably lilith or mandrakes but hopefully grotesques) and then give it zero new weapon options, maybe make it look a fraction better and then increase the price by 20 dollars if it's a unit of 3 or 5. At this point i'd just like to see new grotesques. If they do them we might have the smallest chance of new weapon options. The did have liquifier options so if they are changed like wracks they might get the ossefactor option too. I'm not sure how viable that'd be tho.
IMO we need to fix what is broken now and add back mobility options for our characters are the two most important things.
We actually have a very rich and diverse line of units. We are just limited b.c GW thinks units without traits and PFP or things like Docs, Rites, Tides, etc.. and without stratagems, re-rolls, are worth more than other units with all of those buffs b.c "We can DS for free" or "We get +2" movement"... yeah GW +2" or free DS is SOOOOOOOO worth triple the damage for the same points.
I build all but 3 of the 36 reavers bikes I'd been planning for months to build. I feel like 9th is gonna help ruin this typical loadout from large blast units but only a tank and artillery imp guard list would scare me.
Spoiler:
Is there a way to show off my 33 reavers without ruining the thread with its gigantic size. I'll be able to present the last 3 when I make in a couple days.
I use the Namarti Reavers as my mandrakes since mandrakes are primarily shooting-based it makes more sense to me for them to have bows and knives for the glimmersteel blades.
Namarti are great fun kits, highly recommend. I have only ever used 10 mandrakes though, 2x5 I think if you had like 30 you'd have a hard time finding enough space to deep strike them efficiently. It's like when people run full scion lists.
@the_scotsman: That might be true with mandrakes and squad sizes. Its very true for buldings with scourge. I cant tell you how hard it is to play more than 5 or 7 od those mofos on any floor esp. Given how top heavy they are. Let's be real though scourge have sucked since the start of 8th and if changes don't happen I don't see them being useful any time soon. Honestly not giving them obsessions ruined them.
Back to mandrakes though I haven't used them but they sound fun. My only issues with them is against enemies with really good BS that dinky little -1 to hit isn't gonna save them. Also the shooting sounds nice but it's still just 1 wound at T 3 per model. I imagine they're not bad but light infantry are in a bad spot right now. Even wracks might be too soft to really be on the board. As far as mandrakes go I find it cool they have -1 to be hit in melee. That is not something we see a lot.
flamingkillamajig wrote: @the_scotsman: That might be true with mandrakes and squad sizes. Its very true for buldings with scourge. I cant tell you how hard it is to play more than 5 or 7 od those mofos on any floor esp. Given how top heavy they are. Let's be real though scourge have sucked since the start of 8th and if changes don't happen I don't see them being useful any time soon. Honestly not giving them obsessions ruined them.
Back to mandrakes though I haven't used them but they sound fun. My only issues with them is against enemies with really good BS that dinky little -1 to hit isn't gonna save them. Also the shooting sounds nice but it's still just 1 wound at T 3 per model. I imagine they're not bad but light infantry are in a bad spot right now. Even wracks might be too soft to really be on the board. As far as mandrakes go I find it cool they have -1 to be hit in melee. That is not something we see a lot.
Naw, mandrakes are suuuuper obnoxious for dropping onto the far corner of the board behind a piece of obscuring terrain and Deploying Scramblers. My opponents HATE these guys. I've literally never made a shooting attack with mandrakes in 9th and they've been absolute champions every game. A unit with a -1 to hit, FNP, and an invuln save that natively deep strikes and has the infantry keyword would have to be BONKERS overcosted to not be useful in 9th missions, and Mandrakes are not.
I just dont know if they're the backbone of an army. The key is not that they're the single toughest thing to bring down, the key is the amount of resources your opponent has to redirect from important parts of the battle to try and stop them from scoring secondary points on them for free. And they have a delicious tendency to be just a little bit more durable than your opponent anticipates so they scoot a unit of Outriders or an Ork Buggy or something over so they can get a shot at them, and then all those unexpected defenses make the damage not quite enough to wipe the squad out.
Amishprn86 wrote: I always take 1 unit no matter what, they are just to useful IMO. But yeah not good enough for the backbone of an army.
Mandrakes are a perfect distraction unit.
As soon as they appear at the battlefield, the enemy has to deal with them.
So 1 or 2 units are perfectly fine.
It gives a Drukhari army more variety.
Naw, mandrakes are suuuuper obnoxious for dropping onto the far corner of the board behind a piece of obscuring terrain and Deploying Scramblers. My opponents HATE these guys. I've literally never made a shooting attack with mandrakes in 9th and they've been absolute champions every game. A unit with a -1 to hit, FNP, and an invuln save that natively deep strikes and has the infantry keyword would have to be BONKERS overcosted to not be useful in 9th missions, and Mandrakes are not.
I just dont know if they're the backbone of an army. The key is not that they're the single toughest thing to bring down, the key is the amount of resources your opponent has to redirect from important parts of the battle to try and stop them from scoring secondary points on them for free. And they have a delicious tendency to be just a little bit more durable than your opponent anticipates so they scoot a unit of Outriders or an Ork Buggy or something over so they can get a shot at them, and then all those unexpected defenses make the damage not quite enough to wipe the squad out.
Ah, so they're more like mini Distraction Carnifexes than core units?
Amishprn86 wrote: I always take 1 unit no matter what, they are just to useful IMO. But yeah not good enough for the backbone of an army.
Hmm, that's a shame. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
More of an aside really, but one of the things I dislike about our army since 7th is that it's so lacking in interactions.
Power from Pain used to reward you for killing enemies. Now it's just a table that advances each turn regardless of anything else. You could rename it and put it straight into the Necron codex and I doubt anyone would bat an eye.
And all our HQs just have auras and 0 other abilities. Hence why the Archon's main role is standing between 3 Ravagers like the Living Statue. And the Haemonculus likewise just stands between his creations which makes them tougher somehow.
I don't know, I guess I just wish we had some more interesting decisions to make.
eh, in terms of decision making I still have the PFP table to account for and the combat drugs on all my stuff, so I usually feel like I"m thinking a little more with my drukhari than with most of my armies anyway.
Probably a silly question, but I don't suppose anyone is running Ynnari?
I was wondering if it was any better in 9th - either because of the ASF mechanic or because running Kabal and Cult in the same detachment might be a little more useful now.
Also, does anyone know if Ynnari-Drukhari Patrol detachments count for the Raiding Force bonus?
vipoid wrote: Probably a silly question, but I don't suppose anyone is running Ynnari?
I was wondering if it was any better in 9th - either because of the ASF mechanic or because running Kabal and Cult in the same detachment might be a little more useful now.
Also, does anyone know if Ynnari-Drukhari Patrol detachments count for the Raiding Force bonus?
I do a lot, i actually like Ynnari buffs in 9th and I can mix wyches and kabals lol.
My list is normally along the lines of
Archon - Warden, Hunger blade (makes him a beat stick, Str 7, 6 attack) you can also do this for a Succubus with +1str drug for Str 8) Archon - Walker of many Paths (Gain more CP and sits back for more re-rolls) Sslyth x2 Yvarine Kabal Kabal Wych x10 - Rzorflails, BP Wych x10 - Rzorflails, BP Wych x10 - Rzorflails, BP Reavers Reavers Ravager Ravager Reaper Raider Raider Raider Venom Venom
Optional, I sometimes take 6+ RWF's and a BM. I take out the 2 Sslyths and some Bikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh i forgot to talk about the wyches, Razorflails are amazing, gives the unit +6 more attacks on average, given that you can re-roll hits of 1's and wounds for a unit b.c of Yvarine power, those bonus attacks really adds up,. I have 1 unit with +1atk, 1 with +1str, and 1 with +2" movement on average, Reavrs are +1T and +12 LD (they can run and charge in Ynnari with 1CP, so i try and use them to tank things I know they can, having Tough and LD helps with that) why not give Reaver the +2" movement? B.c 26" movement is good enough most the time and Wyches having it has helped me more so.
With +1atk, and 3D3 attacks, the Razorflails are 5 attack each on average. I have shredded all kinda of things in melee with them. With +atk, a unit has about 46 attacks (2 base, +1 for weapon/Sargent, +1 for Drug thats 4 base for 40 attacks, then +3D3) In cursed blade it works just as well but in Ynnari its even better b.c of the re-rolls to wound. Not bad for a 130pts unit. FOr Harlequins to get that they need to be in FS with 9 models, thats 180pts, sure they all are ap and str 5, but over all its a really good point investment as its 50pts less for about the same damage, with more wounds, FNP, and still a 4++ in melee. EDIT: 140pts if you are taking BP's and PS.
I have used Shardnets a few times and honestly they just didn't seem worth it for 10pts, i either fully kill the unit I charged, or he sits in combat so I can not charge other units, or its against non infantry and doesn't matter. I have only used No Escaped 2x out of using wyches in 10+ games.
At 1k, Ynnari is my go to army, its OP at 1k with Reavers, Wyches, Archon, Yvarine, Reapers and Raiders. Reavers turn 1 charging things can mean the world (Its a 9man at 1k instead of 2x6 mans), wyches having insane amounts of attacks will clear any unit of things and my Wych army can have Reavers with Archon that that gives both re-rolls.
It's nice to hear that Ynnari DE can be decent in 9th, at least in lower point games.
Also interesting to hear how effective Razorflail Wyches are (at least relative to their point cost) with the Ynnari rerolls.
Out of interest, do you consider Razorflails on a Wych better than an Agoniser on the Hekatrix? (I ask simply because they're the same price.)
In any case, I might well give a list along these lines a go. Thanks very much.
I see no point in Agoniser honestly, i just take a Power sword. I would say the Hek with weapon is equal to a Razorflail b.c one is more attacks but the other is higher AP.
Yeah, for 1k games, if you go first with Ynnari and Reavers you basically get to charge w/e you want. I did that in a game and it was so strong turn 1 we reset and I didn't charge instead b.c I was able to charge his WL and 2 other units, also I had 3 HL's and actually got 1 wound through killing a Judicar (he has no invul vs shooting lol). And b.c we had obscuring he wouldn't have been able to shoot them anyways if he went first, really he gave me first turn b.c he didn't think i could go that far that fast and the table was so small he was 5" from the back edge (for fallbacks just in case). It was really gross.
I think all Aeldari are OP at 1k after playing it a few times even vs Marines. I had a Marine player try Dreads even (b.c they can shoot into melee) but i just out score to fast.
Sadly you can't give your succubus the hungering blade so no S8 attacks from her :(
I forgot they took her PS away... IDK why, but her little ones gets power swords.... Anyways you can still make a Str8 in Red Grief if you like her like that. I was going off memory as i don't play Succubi in Ynnari (15+ yrs of DE rules in my head lol)
Denegaar wrote: What about the Yncarne? I keep reading online that he is really good in 9th!
It requires some practicing to you it in the right way.
Otherwise, I'd stay away from it.
For instance, move it only in the opponent turn due to its special rules.
Amishprn86 wrote: I use it a lot, just not in DE. Its one of my favorite models in the game. Its just the way i'm playing DE Ynnari doesn't fit for me.
In competitive play, I find that the Yncarne is too expensive.
Yvraine is suitable for a DE army.
Just got done with my game of 9th ed 40k today and i dunno if i should take 3 large units of bikes honestly. I ran 33 and i have to say if you use blasters getting in close to blow apart vehicles and monsters is often not ideal. The mortal wounds flubbing didn't help but they under-performed. It also didn't help 8th helped ruin flying units jumping out of combat and shooting.
His army was death guard and i honestly had the upper hand i think but i was a bit annoyed about some stuff being blown apart so i charged in when i really, REALLY shouldn't have. The bikes were however great at getting objectives quickly but i just don't think i want more than 2 units of them (24 total) in the future. All that said i don't know how i'm going to handle units with really good invulnerable saves in the future. I may have to stick to grotesques in the future for mortal wound delivery just because they're so durable esp. with their good invulnerable saves.
So to recap don't take blasters unless you maybe have kabal of obsidian rose (short range anti-tank is crap and gets charged or shot quickly or similar) and on the flip side take long ranged anti-tank and anti monster where possible. Don't take too many bikes because they are expensive and probably a bad idea but in average numbers are good for board control. If you have to take melee you're probably better off going covens though cult wyches are sorta durable in melee (sadly they die easily at range though).
Also poison weapons usually under-perform esp. against MEQ armies and esp. without ignoring cover or multiple damage.
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If i was to change my list i'd probably get some raiders w/ a dark lance each and take 2 blasters and a dark lance on warriors inside the raider (raider has a dark lance; warriors have 1 dark lance and 2 blasters) and go obsidian rose. Scourge have more anti-tank weapons but they die too fast. It's all so sad because the price per raider and squad of warriors is not desirable but i'm not sure i can get safe anti-tank any other way besides void ravens and dark lances on vehicles. The issue being you usually have to choose between dissies or dark lances on the same vehicles so making a choice isn't always easy. Most other options for anti-tank or anti-monster just aren't desirable due to being too squishy, endanger the unit from shooting or counter charging or too costly for what you get.
Reavers are good in MSU's to get secondaries, objectives, body blocking,forcing them to waste shots, charging to tie up units that can not fallback, etc..
I wouldn't relay on them as a majority of your army, but 3 units is fine if they are in 3-5-6 mans. 1 larger 9-12man unit is juat as fine too.
Poison is the worst basic rule in the game IMO, sure we can wound t6+ MW's on a 4+ but with no AP, and the lack of re-rolls we have it actually isn't better math wise and then we are literally just worst vs T2-T3 in every way.
I would take Raiders for sure, not just b.c you get a strong weapon, but also having 2 layers of wounds for objectives is a must for DE.
I'm also of the position that blasters are just garbage. They just don't have enough output of fire or range to be worthwhile. We'll see what the dark eldar codex for 9th brings.
I see no point in Agoniser honestly, i just take a Power sword. I would say the Hek with weapon is equal to a Razorflail b.c one is more attacks but the other is higher AP.
That's a good point. I'd also forgotten that Wych weapons are AP-1, which is probably sufficient in most cases.
Yeah, for 1k games, if you go first with Ynnari and Reavers you basically get to charge w/e you want. I did that in a game and it was so strong turn 1 we reset and I didn't charge instead b.c I was able to charge his WL and 2 other units, also I had 3 HL's and actually got 1 wound through killing a Judicar (he has no invul vs shooting lol). And b.c we had obscuring he wouldn't have been able to shoot them anyways if he went first, really he gave me first turn b.c he didn't think i could go that far that fast and the table was so small he was 5" from the back edge (for fallbacks just in case). It was really gross.
I think all Aeldari are OP at 1k after playing it a few times even vs Marines. I had a Marine player try Dreads even (b.c they can shoot into melee) but i just out score to fast.
Don't let GW hear you say that.
Anyway, the one thing that saddens be about Ynnari is the 'no Mandrake' aspect. Means I have to include a separate detachment if I want any, which rather defeats the point of taking a unified detachment.
Poison is the worst basic rule in the game IMO, sure we can wound t6+ MW's on a 4+ but with no AP, and the lack of re-rolls we have it actually isn't better math wise and then we are literally just worst vs T2-T3 in every way.
Agreed about Poison being the worst basic rule in the game. I think one of the biggest problems is that it's just not efficient against most high-toughness targets, due to increased wounds, armour saves, and often FNP as well. So for the most part, you just end up firing disintegrators/blasters against those targets and using Poison against infantry.
Come to that, I'm not even sure what Poison is meant to accomplish in the first place.
I can understand it in melee, as a way to overcome our low strength scores (except not really, because while other armies get stuff like 'AP-2 D2 Poison 2+, +1 attack', we're stuck with AP-2 D1 Poison 4+), but what's the point of having it on our ranged weapons? Is it so that we can shoot poison at Monsters and Disintegrators at Infantry, because I'm not sure that would be any more useful or efficient. Maybe against Nidzilla, but I'd like to think DE might have a design philosophy beyond being a hard-counter to a particular Tyranid build.
Even in terms of fluff, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. I thought DE were most interested in taking live prisoners to use as slaves, to experiment on, or just to torture? Hence, surely if their weapons are poisoned, it should be something that debilitates enemies, rather than just wounding them more easily? (e.g. -2M, -1WS, -1BS, -1S, -1T, Fight Last, and/or can't Overwatch - really anything that makes it harder for the target to fight back, without killing it outright.).
@flamingkillamajig I think a few units of Reavers could be alright, but I'm not sure I'd want units of 11. Especially with the new blast rules. I'd probably offer similar advice to Amishprn86 and aim for 6 per unit at most.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm also of the position that blasters are just garbage. They just don't have enough output of fire or range to be worthwhile. We'll see what the dark eldar codex for 9th brings.
I have to say, I don't *usually* find the range of Blasters to be much of an issue. Especially since the firers are typically in Raiders or Venoms, I don't often struggle to bring them to bear against enemies.
That said, there have been exceptions. And when they happen, it really hurts.
I mean, I can't say I'm thrilled with them. Especially given how expensive they are. It's more a case of infantry having few alternatives.
Well in older editions you were heavily more limited so poison worked a bit better. The problem is now there is almost no limits as to what you can take. I mean Flyers, Talos, Ravagers, all where in the same 3 Heavy slots, so you had to really pick and choose. Now you can take all and more so. So why do we want a single wound guy with a weak gun?
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.... I don't think you can re-roll 1s for vehicle casualties any more, can you?
