most weapons are rounded till closest 5/10. so power fists 10, thunder hammers 15 etc..
Are you guys hoping to see BA in which tier? I can't understand dante and mephy's points hike.. SG are now 6p more expensive.. DC got only 1p increase and weirdly DC w/ TH stayed the same total points.. Now with the points difference, DC might see more sacrifical delete unit..
I don't know that we'd need them really. I mean, Assault intercessors are a troops choice and seems like they'd be great in BA armies with strategic reserves.
I think the character limitations inherent in the detachment system will make for some ugly choices for BA. I wasn't liking hero hammer before, but i was still using more than 3 characters.
agree with you Martel.. our elite section os so crowded anyway so a single batallion might not be enough regards HQ/s and elites.. so my sketch lists have either -2cp patrol or -3cp vanguard in 2k lists. I don't like it, but it's just the way it is. we got more CP anyway even with the detachment costs than we got in 8th. I think many matched play CSM list will have a DG detachment in them so we seem to be in the same boat.. time will tell..
These patrol and 1k games that my gaming group want to start with to get the ropes and 9th rules in check.. I'm struggling to get a decent list sketched.. we have so expensive models...
Anyone got any great suggestions? or already sketched 500/1k lists that feel teethy?
Xirax wrote: agree with you Martel.. our elite section os so crowded anyway so a single batallion might not be enough regards HQ/s and elites.. so my sketch lists have either -2cp patrol or -3cp vanguard in 2k lists. I don't like it, but it's just the way it is. we got more CP anyway even with the detachment costs than we got in 8th. I think many matched play CSM list will have a DG detachment in them so we seem to be in the same boat.. time will tell..
These patrol and 1k games that my gaming group want to start with to get the ropes and 9th rules in check.. I'm struggling to get a decent list sketched.. we have so expensive models...
Anyone got any great suggestions? or already sketched 500/1k lists that feel teethy?
You don't think those assault intercessors could replace some of the elites choices we fill up our lists with? SG went up a lot right? DC w/ jump packs seemed to have fared the best, so i think they stay for sure.
gkos wrote: Any thoughts about if I can run my heavy flamer tac marines up in a rhino now?
well, it's just a fluffy choice.. no blast rule and overwatch costs a cp.. but sure, stuck them in a razorback with asscan and drive around to grab/steal objectives. Not that competitive though..
Martel732 wrote: I think the character limitations inherent in the detachment system will make for some ugly choices for BA. I wasn't liking hero hammer before, but i was still using more than 3 characters.
Agreed. My BA list at the end of 8th had 5 HQs in it. I could probably drop one of those easily as a bit of a luxury but dropping down to 3 would mean leaving out something fairly vital. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing since I think army building should involve tough choices as opposed to 8th's "take everything" approach. I'm less worried about space in the Elites slot. 6 is fine in a standard Battalion. I also don't think taking a Battalion and another detachment is going to be too bad for us. Might even be able to get away with just taking an extra Patrol.
Xirax wrote: agree with you Martel.. our elite section os so crowded anyway so a single batallion might not be enough regards HQ/s and elites.. so my sketch lists have either -2cp patrol or -3cp vanguard in 2k lists. I don't like it, but it's just the way it is. we got more CP anyway even with the detachment costs than we got in 8th. I think many matched play CSM list will have a DG detachment in them so we seem to be in the same boat.. time will tell..
These patrol and 1k games that my gaming group want to start with to get the ropes and 9th rules in check.. I'm struggling to get a decent list sketched.. we have so expensive models...
Anyone got any great suggestions? or already sketched 500/1k lists that feel teethy?
You don't think those assault intercessors could replace some of the elites choices we fill up our lists with? SG went up a lot right? DC w/ jump packs seemed to have fared the best, so i think they stay for sure.
I have not heard good things about assault intercessors so far. I don't see why I would use them over autobolter boys, myself. SG went up a moderate amount. The real killer in all this is an opponent can pay 2 CP to wipe out any BA melee blob even if we tripoint. I'm thinking true combined arms will be necessary.
Xirax wrote: agree with you Martel.. our elite section os so crowded anyway so a single batallion might not be enough regards HQ/s and elites.. so my sketch lists have either -2cp patrol or -3cp vanguard in 2k lists. I don't like it, but it's just the way it is. we got more CP anyway even with the detachment costs than we got in 8th. I think many matched play CSM list will have a DG detachment in them so we seem to be in the same boat.. time will tell..
These patrol and 1k games that my gaming group want to start with to get the ropes and 9th rules in check.. I'm struggling to get a decent list sketched.. we have so expensive models...
Anyone got any great suggestions? or already sketched 500/1k lists that feel teethy?
You don't think those assault intercessors could replace some of the elites choices we fill up our lists with? SG went up a lot right? DC w/ jump packs seemed to have fared the best, so i think they stay for sure.
No, DC with jump packs are now even more fragile and can't rely on tripoint to keep them safe. They are the first thing to dump, imo. Losing DC means one less babysitter, too. That's valuable.
got my boxes of Indotimus today and while looking at the models, most meleey, don't still see sny use for them expect assault intercessors as cheapest primaris troop choice and maybe eradicators as flanking from reserve.. what is your take? yes, impulsor with 2x blade veterans can make a mess, but I'd take sanguinary guard even with the points hike anyday. wonder if eventual DC assault intercessors will be troop/elite, I fear they will be elite, but for this reason won't paint them until all the rules are out.
Another thing is that 1k table is so super tiny, made new custom tables for 9th ed. board sizes and man... 1k games..
Xirax wrote: got my boxes of Indotimus today and while looking at the models, most meleey, don't still see sny use for them expect assault intercessors as cheapest primaris troop choice and maybe eradicators as flanking from reserve.. what is your take? yes, impulsor with 2x blade veterans can make a mess, but I'd take sanguinary guard even with the points hike anyday. wonder if eventual DC assault intercessors will be troop/elite, I fear they will be elite, but for this reason won't paint them until all the rules are out.
Another thing is that 1k table is so super tiny, made new custom tables for 9th ed. board sizes and man... 1k games..
Damn I thought BA players would have been stoked on indomitus. The assault intercessors seem great with BA traits as well as the Outriders. They seem tough as nails, fast, decent shooting, and have what? like 18 attacks on the charge at S4 AP-1 at +1 to wound? Seems like a pretty amazing bully unit for knocking things off objectives. And what SM army doesn't want Eradicators right now? They're dumb cheap for what they do and hell yes out flank them.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think assault intercessor will be worth much. The bikers and melta guys on the other hand, look pretty broken.
I definitely think assault intercessors are going to be good in BA personally. coming in from reserves to grab mid field objectives is going to be nice.
I was just looking at the bikers today. With BA chapter tactics they should be pretty decent, and the extra T and W's should make them fairly tough to kill. I really hope you can upgrade the Sgt's CC weapons though. Would also be cool if you could give them stuff like meltaguns or infernus pistols so they could run up and deal with vehicles too.
3man outrider squad shoots 15 S4 Ap-1 d1 shots and makes 19 same kinda attacks on charge.. not bad for such a mobile unit.
Also the Judicar might see some play in rhe right hands.. not as good as revolting stench from Foul Blightspawn, but not every charge is a multi-charge.. mobility is the weakness, but drop in the mid-board via impulsor..
impulsors with obsec unit.. dunno if shield dome is worth it with points increase..
Inceptors will have a new change for me, they bump good amount of shots and the plasma variant dropped drastically in points when almost everything went up.
Xirax wrote: 3man outrider squad shoots 15 S4 Ap-1 d1 shots and makes 19 same kinda attacks on charge.. not bad for such a mobile unit.
Also the Judicar might see some play in rhe right hands.. not as good as revolting stench from Foul Blightspawn, but not every charge is a multi-charge.. mobility is the weakness, but drop in the mid-board via impulsor..
impulsors with obsec unit.. dunno if shield dome is worth it with points increase..
Inceptors will have a new change for me, they bump good amount of shots and the plasma variant dropped drastically in points when almost everything went up.
Small correction: Outriders can't fire both their pistols and their bike's Bolt rifles, they have to choose one or the other so they "only" get 12 shots.
I think the Judiciar is going to be extremely good for all SM armies. The ability to make something strike last is really powerful and his combat stats are OK too. I'm not sold on Assault Intercessors yet. Yes, they put out a load of attacks, but frankly any Primaris unit does that anyway and to crack tougher targets you need more than just weight of attacks. For 1 point more per model I think the extra versatility of Intercessors might make them a better choice and Incursors give you good CC attack output and superior board control albeit at an increased cost.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think assault intercessor will be worth much. The bikers and melta guys on the other hand, look pretty broken.
I definitely think assault intercessors are going to be good in BA personally. coming in from reserves to grab mid field objectives is going to be nice.
I was just looking at the bikers today. With BA chapter tactics they should be pretty decent, and the extra T and W's should make them fairly tough to kill. I really hope you can upgrade the Sgt's CC weapons though. Would also be cool if you could give them stuff like meltaguns or infernus pistols so they could run up and deal with vehicles too.
I'm not paying CP to do that though when I've got half a codex that deep strikes.
Xirax wrote: 3man outrider squad shoots 15 S4 Ap-1 d1 shots and makes 19 same kinda attacks on charge.. not bad for such a mobile unit.
Also the Judicar might see some play in rhe right hands.. not as good as revolting stench from Foul Blightspawn, but not every charge is a multi-charge.. mobility is the weakness, but drop in the mid-board via impulsor..
impulsors with obsec unit.. dunno if shield dome is worth it with points increase..
Inceptors will have a new change for me, they bump good amount of shots and the plasma variant dropped drastically in points when almost everything went up.
Small correction: Outriders can't fire both their pistols and their bike's Bolt rifles, they have to choose one or the other so they "only" get 12 shots.
I think the Judiciar is going to be extremely good for all SM armies. The ability to make something strike last is really powerful and his combat stats are OK too. I'm not sold on Assault Intercessors yet. Yes, they put out a load of attacks, but frankly any Primaris unit does that anyway and to crack tougher targets you need more than just weight of attacks. For 1 point more per model I think the extra versatility of Intercessors might make them a better choice and Incursors give you good CC attack output and superior board control albeit at an increased cost.
Yes, autobolter boys are invaluable for BA, imo.
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Xirax wrote: 3man outrider squad shoots 15 S4 Ap-1 d1 shots and makes 19 same kinda attacks on charge.. not bad for such a mobile unit.
Also the Judicar might see some play in rhe right hands.. not as good as revolting stench from Foul Blightspawn, but not every charge is a multi-charge.. mobility is the weakness, but drop in the mid-board via impulsor..
impulsors with obsec unit.. dunno if shield dome is worth it with points increase..
Inceptors will have a new change for me, they bump good amount of shots and the plasma variant dropped drastically in points when almost everything went up.
The shield is absolutely worth it. They probably made the plasma guys cheaper because they realized they are suicide unit and only get to fire once, because half the squad kills itself.
I’m really hoping outriders get the ability to run in squads greater than 3 once the codex drops. A squads or Two of 5 outriders with a relic banner Sang ancient, and a JP priest in tow would be amazingly tough and make for a great delivery method for characters to get up the table fast and safe. Thinking of things like a libi dread, Mephiston, or a bike smash chaplain (Flat 4 damage chap. just sounds fun). They also provide that turn one durability speed and board control that I think BA will need to be successful in 9th.
Not sure if they would be better than my current build with 2x5 inceptors to use a similar tactic but it’d be interesting to try on the table.
So with Blood Angels apparently getting access to the full Space Marine core book this edition is their any room for Assault Centurions in a Blood Angels list?
We don't know that yet. But if it were to be true, I don't think assault cents are very good without deployment shenanigan that BA don't have. And eradicators are in the game now.
Anyone excited for assault intercessors for BA? We all know they will get the death company treatment. I will be painting mine as such and awaiting our FAQ/9th edition codex when we can charge out of a Repulsor with a 10 man squad and rip up the enemy with +3 attacks on the charge with our glorious -1 ap chainswords and -2 on the 3rd turn following that deadly second turn charge. For Sanguinius!
Crusaderobr wrote: Anyone excited for assault intercessors for BA? We all know they will get the death company treatment. I will be painting mine as such and awaiting our FAQ/9th edition codex when we can charge out of a Repulsor with a 10 man squad and rip up the enemy with +3 attacks on the charge with our glorious -1 ap chainswords and -2 on the 3rd turn following that deadly second turn charge. For Sanguinius!
the big problem I have with Assault Intercessors is they get a bunch of attacks but not enough more than regular Intercessors for me. Intercessors get a good gun, useable from pretty much anywhere on the board that clears chaff fairly well and can threaten heavier targets in Tactical doctrine. They also get a good number of attacks when they charge and the sergeant can take a PF or TH to beef them up a lot. Assault Intercessors punch things quite well but lose a lot of flexibility to do it without gaining enough extra close combat ability IMO. With the changes to multi-charges meaning you're much more likely to be fighting single unit vs single unit there comes a point where the additional attacks just don't help out that much. And if you really need something blendered properly you have regular Death Company for that job.
I am really hoping we get a unique stratagem allowing assault intercessors to charge from a Impulsors that has moved. Otherwise I dont think it will be worth transporting assault intercessors, I would run 2 x 3 bladeguards in 1 impulsor instead and maybe use 2 x 5 assault intercessors in strategic reserve for t3.
Bryten wrote: I am really hoping we get a unique stratagem allowing assault intercessors to charge from a Impulsors that has moved. Otherwise I dont think it will be worth transporting assault intercessors, I would run 2 x 3 bladeguards in 1 impulsor instead and maybe use 2 x 5 assault intercessors in strategic reserve for t3.
There's hope yet for a strat coming from the new SM codex.
2x3 Bladeguard in an Impulsor does sound pretty tasty.
I'm going to be playing some small 1k games early next week, depending on what I can get built over the weekend I hope to have some Indomitus stuff included, I'll let you all know how it goes.
Crusaderobr wrote: Anyone excited for assault intercessors for BA? We all know they will get the death company treatment. I will be painting mine as such and awaiting our FAQ/9th edition codex when we can charge out of a Repulsor with a 10 man squad and rip up the enemy with +3 attacks on the charge with our glorious -1 ap chainswords and -2 on the 3rd turn following that deadly second turn charge. For Sanguinius!
the big problem I have with Assault Intercessors is they get a bunch of attacks but not enough more than regular Intercessors for me. Intercessors get a good gun, useable from pretty much anywhere on the board that clears chaff fairly well and can threaten heavier targets in Tactical doctrine. They also get a good number of attacks when they charge and the sergeant can take a PF or TH to beef them up a lot. Assault Intercessors punch things quite well but lose a lot of flexibility to do it without gaining enough extra close combat ability IMO. With the changes to multi-charges meaning you're much more likely to be fighting single unit vs single unit there comes a point where the additional attacks just don't help out that much. And if you really need something blendered properly you have regular Death Company for that job.
Sounds like you want to play a different space marine chapter other than Blood Angels then. Our advantages lie in close combat, if you want to go for shooty gunline Primaris, there are other better space marine Chapters for you to play with. I wont stop you! For the emperor! I see great value in this unit, +1 to charge, +1 to wound, 6+ FNP on 2 wounds and 60 attacks on the charge at ap -1 out of a Repulsor will wreck units in cc. And it will count as a troop choice and only be a few points over a regular intercessor most likely. Im excited for this unit. Add a Chaplain for gaks and giggles.
Crusaderobr wrote: Anyone excited for assault intercessors for BA? We all know they will get the death company treatment. I will be painting mine as such and awaiting our FAQ/9th edition codex when we can charge out of a Repulsor with a 10 man squad and rip up the enemy with +3 attacks on the charge with our glorious -1 ap chainswords and -2 on the 3rd turn following that deadly second turn charge. For Sanguinius!
the big problem I have with Assault Intercessors is they get a bunch of attacks but not enough more than regular Intercessors for me. Intercessors get a good gun, useable from pretty much anywhere on the board that clears chaff fairly well and can threaten heavier targets in Tactical doctrine. They also get a good number of attacks when they charge and the sergeant can take a PF or TH to beef them up a lot. Assault Intercessors punch things quite well but lose a lot of flexibility to do it without gaining enough extra close combat ability IMO. With the changes to multi-charges meaning you're much more likely to be fighting single unit vs single unit there comes a point where the additional attacks just don't help out that much. And if you really need something blendered properly you have regular Death Company for that job.
Sounds like you want to play a different space marine chapter other than Blood Angels then. Our advantages lie in close combat, if you want to go for shooty gunline Primaris, there are other better space marine Chapters for you to play with. I wont stop you! For the emperor! I see great value in this unit, +1 to charge, +1 to wound, 6+ FNP on 2 wounds and 60 attacks on the charge at ap -1 out of a Repulsor will wreck units in cc. And it will count as a troop choice and only be a few points over a regular intercessor most likely. Im excited for this unit. Add a Chaplain for gaks and giggles.
I don't think liking Intersessors with guns stops you from wanting to play blood angels.. For 10 extra points over assault intercessors you lose 9 combat attacks and ap - 1 but you gain 30 autobolter/20 bolt rifle shots and the ability to swap the sarges chainsword for something more potent like a thunderhammer. Normal intercessors are potent in both the shooting and assault phase whilst assault intercessors are only marginally more effect at assaulting but much worse at shooting. Just because we play blood angels doesn't mean we should disregard everything with a gun.
Crusaderobr wrote: Anyone excited for assault intercessors for BA? We all know they will get the death company treatment. I will be painting mine as such and awaiting our FAQ/9th edition codex when we can charge out of a Repulsor with a 10 man squad and rip up the enemy with +3 attacks on the charge with our glorious -1 ap chainswords and -2 on the 3rd turn following that deadly second turn charge. For Sanguinius!
the big problem I have with Assault Intercessors is they get a bunch of attacks but not enough more than regular Intercessors for me. Intercessors get a good gun, useable from pretty much anywhere on the board that clears chaff fairly well and can threaten heavier targets in Tactical doctrine. They also get a good number of attacks when they charge and the sergeant can take a PF or TH to beef them up a lot. Assault Intercessors punch things quite well but lose a lot of flexibility to do it without gaining enough extra close combat ability IMO. With the changes to multi-charges meaning you're much more likely to be fighting single unit vs single unit there comes a point where the additional attacks just don't help out that much. And if you really need something blendered properly you have regular Death Company for that job.
Sounds like you want to play a different space marine chapter other than Blood Angels then. Our advantages lie in close combat, if you want to go for shooty gunline Primaris, there are other better space marine Chapters for you to play with. I wont stop you! For the emperor! I see great value in this unit, +1 to charge, +1 to wound, 6+ FNP on 2 wounds and 60 attacks on the charge at ap -1 out of a Repulsor will wreck units in cc. And it will count as a troop choice and only be a few points over a regular intercessor most likely. Im excited for this unit. Add a Chaplain for gaks and giggles.
I don't think liking Intersessors with guns stops you from wanting to play blood angels.. For 10 extra points over assault intercessors you lose 9 combat attacks and ap - 1 but you gain 30 autobolter/20 bolt rifle shots and the ability to swap the sarges chainsword for something more potent like a thunderhammer. Normal intercessors are potent in both the shooting and assault phase whilst assault intercessors are only marginally more effect at assaulting but much worse at shooting. Just because we play blood angels doesn't mean we should disregard everything with a gun.
Agreed, im just saying dont write off the Assault Intercessors. Also, keep in mind im specifically talking about Death Company assault intercessors, which technically dont exist yet, but we know they are coming. The extra attacks with black rage merit them to be an actual close combat squad that has a huge punch. I would be surprised if Blood Angels players did not include a giant 10 man blob in a list and maybe compliment them with regular intercessor squads, or the new heavy intercessor squads. One thing is for sure, we will have more options than ever before, and as a Blood Angels player im super stoked for the options.
Crusaderobr wrote: Anyone excited for assault intercessors for BA? We all know they will get the death company treatment. I will be painting mine as such and awaiting our FAQ/9th edition codex when we can charge out of a Repulsor with a 10 man squad and rip up the enemy with +3 attacks on the charge with our glorious -1 ap chainswords and -2 on the 3rd turn following that deadly second turn charge. For Sanguinius!
the big problem I have with Assault Intercessors is they get a bunch of attacks but not enough more than regular Intercessors for me. Intercessors get a good gun, useable from pretty much anywhere on the board that clears chaff fairly well and can threaten heavier targets in Tactical doctrine. They also get a good number of attacks when they charge and the sergeant can take a PF or TH to beef them up a lot. Assault Intercessors punch things quite well but lose a lot of flexibility to do it without gaining enough extra close combat ability IMO. With the changes to multi-charges meaning you're much more likely to be fighting single unit vs single unit there comes a point where the additional attacks just don't help out that much. And if you really need something blendered properly you have regular Death Company for that job.
Sounds like you want to play a different space marine chapter other than Blood Angels then. Our advantages lie in close combat, if you want to go for shooty gunline Primaris, there are other better space marine Chapters for you to play with. I wont stop you! For the emperor! I see great value in this unit, +1 to charge, +1 to wound, 6+ FNP on 2 wounds and 60 attacks on the charge at ap -1 out of a Repulsor will wreck units in cc. And it will count as a troop choice and only be a few points over a regular intercessor most likely. Im excited for this unit. Add a Chaplain for gaks and giggles.
Blood Angels are not the raaargh! forward and punch everything Marines - that's Space Wolves, or World Eaters. One of the BA advantages lies in the fact that even their non-close combat specialists are more than competent in close combat and any army requires a solid firebase to perform well. My issue with Assault Intercessors is similar to the problem I have with Death Company Intercessors - regular Death Company do the same role better and/or cheaper. I'm also not sure what the point of discussing a theoretical unit is. If we do get DC Assault Intercessors I suspect they'll be Elites, just like the regular DC Intercesors and likely hugely overcosted, just like the DC Intercessors.
For those like me who like to field some FW models look no further than the relic contemptor dreadnought: it's basically the only models which, so far, got a discount and I guess one should take advantage of that. Right now I think I have my elites slots for 2000 points sorted: 2x relic contemptor dreadnoughts with twin lascannons and cyclone launcher, 2x sanguinary guards, 2x blade guards inside the impulsor.
Crusaderobr wrote: Anyone excited for assault intercessors for BA? We all know they will get the death company treatment. I will be painting mine as such and awaiting our FAQ/9th edition codex when we can charge out of a Repulsor with a 10 man squad and rip up the enemy with +3 attacks on the charge with our glorious -1 ap chainswords and -2 on the 3rd turn following that deadly second turn charge. For Sanguinius!
the big problem I have with Assault Intercessors is they get a bunch of attacks but not enough more than regular Intercessors for me. Intercessors get a good gun, useable from pretty much anywhere on the board that clears chaff fairly well and can threaten heavier targets in Tactical doctrine. They also get a good number of attacks when they charge and the sergeant can take a PF or TH to beef them up a lot. Assault Intercessors punch things quite well but lose a lot of flexibility to do it without gaining enough extra close combat ability IMO. With the changes to multi-charges meaning you're much more likely to be fighting single unit vs single unit there comes a point where the additional attacks just don't help out that much. And if you really need something blendered properly you have regular Death Company for that job.
Sounds like you want to play a different space marine chapter other than Blood Angels then. Our advantages lie in close combat, if you want to go for shooty gunline Primaris, there are other better space marine Chapters for you to play with. I wont stop you! For the emperor! I see great value in this unit, +1 to charge, +1 to wound, 6+ FNP on 2 wounds and 60 attacks on the charge at ap -1 out of a Repulsor will wreck units in cc. And it will count as a troop choice and only be a few points over a regular intercessor most likely. Im excited for this unit. Add a Chaplain for gaks and giggles.
So I’m just now pulling my armies out of storage after about 7 years; but I’ve always played a VERY shooty BA Army. Scout snipers, Devastators and Tacs anchoring the line and my Assault and DC tying up and or wrecking everything else. I had an old friend complain so much about how cheesy my gun Termie were he wouldn’t play a list that had them. Granted; I’m still trying to figure out the new edition (which is why I’m here in this thread) but the idea BA can only run assault is a little silly.
we had a garage hammering and my 1k BA list went 3-0 against UM, DG and DA. I'll share some thoughts..
my list spends 4cp before the game.
Librarian dreadnought - quickening - wings of sanguinius
lieutenant with a jump pack - thunder hammer - the veritas vitae - death visions of the sanguinius (it's remade from a DCTH guy so it's black..)
Relic contemptor dreadnought - 2x twin lascannon - typhoon missile launcher
5x sanguinary guard - 3x fist - 2x sword
sanguinary ancient - banner of sacrifice - warlord: deny a psychic power WT
So this was my list and my best units were the contemptor and SG. Lib dread with WC7 quickening failed it too many times to shine, maybe I'll give a go for the sarcophacus relic.. There is super strats dreads and I used them the most and couple reroll wounds for SG and UWoF for the lieutenant.
In such a small game just bringing that much fire power behind an obscured building was great. Single shot a eradicator squad with -1 to hit for example.
Engage all fronts even with 1k game is too good secondary to pass. I can't wait to get my white scars build up and go for a spin. mobility or luck+concealed units make the life of your opponent so much harder. Primary points matter so much in the end.
sanguinary ancient - banner of sacrifice
5x sanguinary guard - 3x fist - 2x sword
relic contemptor - 2x twin las - cyclone ML
Have to say I'm liking this list with the new missions. relic contemptor coming behind a obscured building or strategic reserve is nasty. Single shot a eradicator unit with reroll 1's to hit strat. In a 1k game it's quite durable with or without the half damage strat.
Anyone else got games under your belt and like to share some insight what has worked? Wonder if the new outriders will do good with BA.
Also have to say I'm liking the lib dread, even it dies after charging enemy lines, but it single handedly wrecked Tau gunline.
Anyone else got games under your belt and like to share some insight what has worked? Wonder if the new outriders will do good with BA.
Also have to say I'm liking the lib dread, even it dies after charging enemy lines, but it single handedly wrecked Tau gunline.
I’ve played through 5 games with my BA at 2000 pts. I’m with you on the libi dread, It’s a great work horse. I’ve been running it with hero of the chapter: speed of the primarch. having a fight first ability means that if they charge it or it performs a heroic intervention (which we can do at 6”) means that the dread get to fight before the charging units, since the player who’s turn it is not selects a unit to fight first. Mephiston is great for this as well since that’s his set WL trait.
also been getting a lot of work done with infiltrators. Being only 20pts more than intercessors for a 5 man squad makes them a very good choice for the troop slots. Scout deployment is extremely useful with the new mission set.
Still a fan of a big unit of bolter inceptors. In cover with the relic banner and transhuman make a great mid field fire base that’s hard to dislodge. I ran them through most of 8th and they still good in 9th.
Haven’t had a chance to try outriders yet but I’ve got a list together to run two squads of them instead of the DC I’m currently running. Looking forward to giving them a go.
Anyone else got games under your belt and like to share some insight what has worked? Wonder if the new outriders will do good with BA.
Also have to say I'm liking the lib dread, even it dies after charging enemy lines, but it single handedly wrecked Tau gunline.
I’ve played through 5 games with my BA at 2000 pts. I’m with you on the libi dread, It’s a great work horse. I’ve been running it with hero of the chapter: speed of the primarch. having a fight first ability means that if they charge it or it performs a heroic intervention (which we can do at 6”) means that the dread get to fight before the charging units, since the player who’s turn it is not selects a unit to fight first. Mephiston is great for this as well since that’s his set WL trait.
also been getting a lot of work done with infiltrators. Being only 20pts more than intercessors for a 5 man squad makes them a very good choice for the troop slots. Scout deployment is extremely useful with the new mission set.
Still a fan of a big unit of bolter inceptors. In cover with the relic banner and transhuman make a great mid field fire base that’s hard to dislodge. I ran them through most of 8th and they still good in 9th.
Haven’t had a chance to try outriders yet but I’ve got a list together to run two squads of them instead of the DC I’m currently running. Looking forward to giving them a go.
Sorry to burst the bubble on the always strikes first but it pains me to say it doesn't work like that - I really wanted mephy to be a good warlord :-(
The rules for it are in the rare rule section of the book - it states that with models that charge or always strike first the player who's turn it is gets priority when choosing so a charger can still get the first hit in.
Counter intuitive to the base rules but at least they cover it.
Krull wrote: What do you think are the best units to start a crusade?
I think its hard to include sang guard or a big unit of DC.
all the new primaris stuff seems ok in price and are pretty good for it.
But i have no idea how to start a crusade with Blood Angels.
Any thoughts?
i
Well crusade is about narrative, so winning isn't the thing.. but I started it with Libby dread, assault intercessors, sanguinary guard and inceptors and they played the mission quite well. Probably better consepts with two squads of troops are there, but I went with mobility and units I like.
Btw, DC might be back on the menu boys.. after getting 2w.. I'm really having hard time guessing what they will do to DC intercessors to better the JP firstborn version.. My guess is that 9th ed. will be the "swan's song" (finnish phrase) for all firstborns.. to sell out the stocks and prepare for 10th ed.. Also really hard to make any new purchases while waiting the new codex to drop out in a month or so.
Starting to master my 1k BA list, got today 42 points after third turn against DG and we called it a BA victory..
Well, Primaris Marines have found their way into the BA codex and into game play.
When the Marine codex comes out, I would like to play my oldschool 2W Marines with the signature units such as DC and Baal Predators, but no Primaris.
Baal and dakka predators might see some play when the heavy bolters become 6 shots and d2 damage.. Like 100% sure they will be too expensive for competitive games, but still a much awaited buff.
Xirax wrote: Baal and dakka predators might see some play when the heavy bolters become 6 shots and d2 damage.. Like 100% sure they will be too expensive for competitive games, but still a much awaited buff.
170 pts....
Almost 200 pts for something that has 11 wounds and basically no defensive buff ability. It could come off the board edge from strat reserve and probably do some damage, particularly if you get it near some rerolls, but there are units who probably do better with less setup/support.
Xirax wrote: Baal and dakka predators might see some play when the heavy bolters become 6 shots and d2 damage.. Like 100% sure they will be too expensive for competitive games, but still a much awaited buff.
170 pts....
Almost 200 pts for something that has 11 wounds and basically no defensive buff ability. It could come off the board edge from strat reserve and probably do some damage, particularly if you get it near some rerolls, but there are units who probably do better with less setup/support.
Well, I'm toying with a fire base consisting of three dakka (or Baal) Predators with some rerolls.
They should hamper the enemy to move towards the centre of the board.
Had another game against Death Guard and tabled and out scored him by turn 4. I lost only my librarian dreadnought after he had killed a foul blightspawn and a bloatdrone. Lib dread has been my MvP along with the relic contemptor. Relic contemptor did 25 damage before DR saves against a plagueburst crawler. On the other hand ironclot furnace and bloat-drone made all the 4++ invul saves against my shooting..
Next I'll test impulsor rush, but in last nights game I had my assault intercessors in reserve and when they came from reserves T3, they made work from poxwalkers blobs.
Flamestorm cannon's are in a good spot imo, if you want to try out the Baal Pred with Flamestorm let us know how it performs. Ive always had a soft spot for the Land Raider Redeemer, people under estimate it imo. Excellent transport and the cannons make quick work of infantry.
Sotahullu wrote: I am not sold on flamestorm cannon with Baal Predator unless there is something else but I could take heavy flamer sponsons.
If your sticking to the Twin Assault Cannon, just leave the Heavy Bolters on, especially since soon they will be dmg 2 imo. Park it on an objective and let the Dakka fly.
Sotahullu wrote: I am not sold on flamestorm cannon with Baal Predator unless there is something else but I could take heavy flamer sponsons.
If your sticking to the Twin Assault Cannon, just leave the Heavy Bolters on, especially since soon they will be dmg 2 imo. Park it on an objective and let the Dakka fly.
Depends a bit on the points.
But three such Predators in the backfield could very well support an advancing BA army.
Sotahullu wrote: I am not sold on flamestorm cannon with Baal Predator unless there is something else but I could take heavy flamer sponsons.
If your sticking to the Twin Assault Cannon, just leave the Heavy Bolters on, especially since soon they will be dmg 2 imo. Park it on an objective and let the Dakka fly.
Depends a bit on the points.
But three such Predators in the backfield could very well support an advancing BA army.
For 3 Dakka Preds its gonna run 510 (so in 2k a quarter of your army). You are gonna want at least a LT for rerolls on wounds to help with anything T7 or above. As much as I would like for it to be good (and in some matchups against Horde I imagine it would do quite well) something tells me you can find a better firebase for 500 pts, but it's fun - lots of dice
Having a small tournament this week and the list I'm trying is mostly primaris from indomitus. Feel like blade vets can field a role for punchy squad with the 4++ impulsor. Still feels weird to play without SG. I'll try to get a practise game before sunday, but suffering from a flu, so it's not guaranteed so thought I could throw the list for your evaluation. I'll be facing IK, Tau, DG for example.
played the above list with only smash cpt to be the warlord.
Have to say bringing a SM army feels dirty. IK player was done at end of T3 with two armigers left and me controlling the whole board having over 1500p alive. Cpt smash is super smashy against IK and Blade vets in assault doctrine chop knights with ap-4 2dam.
Second game against DG & Chaos knights.. Same result, lost under 500p and tabled my opponent at the end of T4. Foul blightspawns were the only real nuisance. Especially giving the aura to a rampager. In the end I was scoring 72 to 27 at end of T4.
Mobility and how tye list plays the mission and forces the opponent to fear the flying lib dread and smash cpt.. still the most damage and resilience was shown with the duo of blade vet squads. I drove them in the midfield/contesting objective with the impulsor, bring my support characters and slice. I have been reading that Judiciar is better for immobile castle, but he with a squad of ass ints got where needed. A word for inceptors.. they were used more of an screen/hold X board corner more than a shooting platform. Although with blast they did good damage on 6+ squad of plague marines even without overcharge. Assault doctrine is crazy with BA.
I'm trying to tone down the list a bit and make it all primaris. Will test the blade ancient with banner of sacrifice, Mephiston and the Indomitus cpt/lt. 3dmg sword to the cpt.
We need the new Codex. All SM, except Grey Knights, will now be supplements that use the main SM Codex. Looks like the current BA Codex will still somehow be useable with the new SM Codex though, I guess?
gkos wrote: Like many of you I expect you have ordered the book and are awaiting delivery (anyone know when that is?).
But my question is, can we now take any of the dreadnoughts, as they seem to be looking nice again having the core label.
blood angels arent restricted for anything in the codex so yes you can take any dreadnought as of right now. The supplement might change this but the marine codex lists restrictions for other first foundings but none for BA.
On another note there's a 2cp strat that puts a unit in all 3 doctrines for the turn. Should be fun to put a unit into assault doctrine for extra attacks on turn 1 and 2. The unit has to be on the table in command phase so wont work with deep strikers but its handy still.
That strat does seem very powerful, being able to put everything up to 11 for a turn could be very tasty if you can get the shoot/charge in.
I never play SG but a blob of death company with jetpacks can probably do a good deal with it, especially with the new mortal wounds shock assault thing (?)
a lot to consume here.. dc 25p w/ jp.. no more boltguns amd ccw, so s lot of remodelling.. sanguinor has interesting fluffy rule to enter the table.. lib dread is still a beast.. sang ancient 125p.. sang guard A3 and only 30p with a sword. All the strats, relics, warlord traits are gone from BA codex and PA.. nothing usable anymore, only couple random relics and unique strats on the faq can be used before the supplement drops. vet intercessors seem a real bargain for a melee threat now.. we seems very much cribbled in regards of our play style before we get our speedy strats back. Mephy went down in points and lib dread only +7p, halberd is only one attack, but furioso fist still does the work. Sang guard are +1 to hit next to the sang ancient or a warlord so not bad.. Lemartes knows two litsnies, but those ever benefit only death company. Astorath at 150p.. well biggest thing for me is to remodel my 30 DC again back to pistols.. although I'll never run them in such a high numbers.
A relatively decent index to see us through to our supplement being released is my initial thought's. SG are fantastic, no relic banner is gonna hurt. Dante is useable now and the Sanguinor is basically a mini Yncarne now.
Sang priest’s chalice has changed completely, though it’s probably fine considering power weapons and co. all went up +1S anyway. It does mean you can drop one down with you sang guard turn 2 and they count as being in the melee doctrine which is pretty neat.
Tiberius501 wrote: Sang priest’s chalice has changed completely, though it’s probably fine considering power weapons and co. all went up +1S anyway. It does mean you can drop one down with you sang guard turn 2 and they count as being in the melee doctrine which is pretty neat.
Only their attacks count as Assault Doctrine so only -1 AP to melee and pistol attacks. No Savage Echoes or Shock Assault benefits...
We lost more than we gained, with most the gains being with units we are unlikely to take often or benefit much use. No USEFUL Chapter Strats, no Chapter Disciplines and no Chapter Litanies really hurts any competitive chance BA have in general.
Getting worried that GW is going to 5th to 6th edition screw BA over on this supplement...
Hmm true but still might be handy now that we have baked in +1 strength on our power weapons anyway.
Also, would a squad of Vanguard all with chainswords and some power swords and jump packs be an alright unit to drop in now they have 2W? I’m considering using the assault intercessor models and putting jump packs on them.
just played the first couple of turns with the new pdf (finishing rest tomorrow)
The blood angels defiantly play differently however there is alot of value in certain units.
The space marine psychic powers actually work really well with the army, i had mephiston with veil of time, might of heros and psychic fortress (5 up invulnerable aura).
Unfortunate for me i was playing against lots of star cannons with master crafter trait. He rolled well i didn't make any 5 up saves, but the theory was good haha. The fight first part of veil of time did provide some issues for my opponent which is always a good thing.
Sanguinary priests are amazing, i took the normal one without the upgrade and still was amazing at providing feel no paint and bringing back models. Sanguinary Guard are so good for the points, same with blade guard.
While a lot of strats have gone, what we do have is really good. Lots of utilty and the strat to be in every docturines is pretty nuts
I'm playing my first game tomorrow, wanna try out and BA flavored list so no blade guard or Teeth of Terra Smash captain, which might be a steal for BA.
That sounds pretty sick, i just used mephiston in a game.
He is still a beast but he does lack the mobiliy now so you need an impulsor or somthing to get him up the field.
A librian dreadnough with those buffs would be pretty savage, they would pack a punch. Plus the new powers could be really good on them, might of heros and psyic fortress espically
Both options seem reasonably priced.. I add the phobos lib for this list aswell. Lord of deceit WT for my incursors is actually proved to be nice thing to have up in the sleeve.
back to Lib dread vs. Mephy.
Lib dread more durable, lacks infantry keyword and Stormraven is very expensive transport mechanism. Mephy lacks invul. too but as infantry can move through ruins.. Goes nicely in an impulsor along with assault intercessors.. which is more comp choice than DC intercessors as escorts..
I want to try van vets and vet intercessors with chainswords, but I fear they don't perfom as good as SG and DC with jump packs.. I think that power fists are the way to go upgrade for some of the DC rather than 10p more thunder hammers. Some one should make a comparison for point efficiency in melee between, van vets, dc intercessors, blade vets, SG with swords and vet intercessors..
I'll clash against DG termie spam, most likely 3 blightspawns, 3 PBC tonight.. with the above list.
After a single game with the Index errata, BA is still strong with access to all the SM stuff.. Maybe WS is still the tier 1 melee SM faction, but after the supplement I hope it'll change.
Btw, do you ever mix and match dev squad weaponry.. Four heavy flamers with a cherub is teasing against some match ups, but it's a bit of a niche to drop down.. yes you can flame a unit, but what then.. I've been scetching a toned down list with 2x HF, 2x HB and 2x MM, 2x GravC devs in pods.
Hulksmash wrote: I think rerolling ANY dice for 7" charges mean you can drop 1k points in jump assault on tur. 2/3 and destroy opponents.
How are you charging on a 7 with re-rolling dice? I know there is that one lithany that you can trigger with a CP on a chaplain. Canthicle of hate I think it is. It is a 6" buble around the chaplain for any core or character.
Deliverence method can be jump pack or it can be drop pod. SW have no way to inherently re-roll charges as far as I know, do BA have? (SW have the wolf banner on grey hunters that re-rolls 1's, but that is not really it.)
Although Black Templars re-roll charge ranges. So they might do it. Is there something in the BA supplement for that?
The real reson I droped by the thread is I am veyr hyped for the SW supplement. It is really good. Unfortunetly SW seems to have left the dakka forums after beeing very bad for a long time. I think BA looks cool to. Sanguine guards costing 30 with good weapons and 2+ save. Golden boy can heoric intervene from reserves. Looks like a good time for all marines as far as I can tell. Any hype? :-)
Krull wrote: Can we still use everything from PA blood of baal?
Like all stratas and stuff (obv not points or characteristis of models)
Nope. BA now use the 9th edition SM Codex and the update document found on Warhammer Community. That means we've lost all our Codex and PA strats, warlord traits and relics unless they're included in the update document.
With regard to those intercessors holding the back, what bolters would you put on them?
I always think that sticking the stalker on them as I probably won't be moving them much, and you want to have a bit of power in case anything big drops in.
If a blob turns up, I guess they would just have to engage in melee until help arrives.
I feel like the regular bolt rifle is pretty much the best way to go for Intercessors. All rounder, -2AP for 2 turns and by turn 3, if they’re still alive and anyone is trying to melee you, our Intercessors are pretty potent in melee in the Assault Doctrine.
BA have so many ways to kill other marines, I still think the autobolter is the go-to still. It's future-proofing vs a good horde codex. Especially because tripointing is no longer a safe haven vs screens.
Mostly bolt rifles.
If i take 3 units of intercessors 2 with bolt rifles and 1 with stalker bolt rifles. To have some change.
I never take auto bolt rifles because having no ap seems a waste.
gkos wrote: Having just built 10 auto bolter intercessors I think the ability to move and shoot will be key.
I can see it being handy for getting line of sight or pushing towards objectives and still being able to get shots in.
10 Unbuffed bolt rifles at 15" cause 3.333 (repeating of course) wounds to Meqs outside cover.
10 Unbuffed autobolters at 24" cause 3.3333 wounds to meqs outside of cover.
The autobolters get better vs hordes, and the rifles get better vs 2+ saves.
gkos wrote: That's all very well for the maths but you will cause 0 wounds to something you can't see and so mobility can be a big advantage.
Also, moving up-field rapidly can have impacts on your opponents game plan.
I just have the feeling that being mobile and shooty really is a key factor of 9th.
That's a point in favor of the autobolters. They do the same damage or better most of the time from a better range. Kill 2+ units with other weapons. Like plasma. Or eradicators. Also, there's the chance that a horde army will get a good codex in 9th, which is bad news for BA.
If it helps, I do refuse to play SG as I really don't like the look of gold marines.
Every BA list I see seems to have SG spam so by avoiding those I hope to be self regulating the more OP units.
Those are late 8th ed lists when they could all be easily protected by tripointing enemy units. VV are arguably better now than SG for a variety of purposes.
Strange I have not seen them in any batreps, not that there seem to be many BA batreps :-/
I have a number of Assualt marines that I am planning to convert into VV, just need to decide what to kit them out with. I have a few LC and TH and quite a number of chainswords and pistols.
gkos wrote: Strange I have not seen them in any batreps, not that there seem to be many BA batreps :-/
I have a number of Assualt marines that I am planning to convert into VV, just need to decide what to kit them out with. I have a few LC and TH and quite a number of chainswords and pistols.
Any suggestions as to a nice mix?
I'd give a lot of them plasma pistol/storm shield and then a budget captain for rerolls. Hammer on sarge and maybe a lightning claw guy or two.
gkos wrote: Sadly I am lacking on storm shields, only got one!
Still, the rest is no problem, I had put together a list in the army lists section, my idea there was to run the vets behind my captain/troop blob.
After a softening from the troops, the vets would jump over and the captain has the vox for the long range aura if he doesn't make the charge.
I ordered some dope ass 3rd party SS for my VV a while ago.
You may want VV out ahead so go grab those sweet sweet VPs. They are HARD to get out of cover, too. I like the plasma pistol because damage 2 is so good right now.
Based off the Necron codex.. maybe? I feel that I have to play at at least one whole tier above a marine foe to beat them though Necrons though. Necrons have a decent amount of 2 damage weapons, but not on their troops unlike marines. Marines can roll out with grav cannon tac marines as troops with a combi melta or combi plasma... yeah. Giving the cheaper, killier oldbois 2W is just soul crushing for Xenos, imo.
gkos wrote: Strange I have not seen them in any batreps, not that there seem to be many BA batreps :-/
I have a number of Assualt marines that I am planning to convert into VV, just need to decide what to kit them out with. I have a few LC and TH and quite a number of chainswords and pistols.
Any suggestions as to a nice mix?
Regarding Vanguard Vet loadouts:
Stormshields all round is pretty key to making them work, otherwise they are expensive and easy to kill.
Obviously loadout will depend on what you want them to do, they get a discount on buying melee weapons and they want to be in combat so try to avoid pistols, you don't really want them shooting.
Against hordes or general infantry the Lightning claw is a great weapon for very few points, a pair is good if you lack shields.
Thunderhammers have gone down in power but are still useful against big targets, for marine killing the powerfist is a strong choice.
On the Srg you really want to take advantage of the Relic Blade option, math wise (assuming no rerolls or other bonuses) its a better choice than either the fist or hammer VS most targets, plus it looks really cool!
If you want a couple of cheap filler bodies then double chainsword is ok as well, but I would take a look on ebay or bits sites and find yourself some Shields.
Pistols on vv work quite well for BA really, because BA already have cc buffs. 2 damage shots are quite good right now. It also lets them contribute even if their charge fails.
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Tiberius501 wrote: Do you think I could get away with using power swords and shields and putting jump packs on Bladeguard models and putting them on 32mm bases?
Probably. But why not just paint up asm as VV and use bits?
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah of course, derp lol. Yeah that was the other conversion I was thinking, using the Assault Intercessors.
Oh yeah, modifying the assault intercessors would be dope. Bottom line, I think the sword vets are too valuable fiscally to be converted to old bois. They are 50 bucks for 3 on ebay.
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah of course, derp lol. Yeah that was the other conversion I was thinking, using the Assault Intercessors.
Oh yeah, modifying the assault intercessors would be dope. Bottom line, I think the sword vets are too valuable fiscally to be converted to old bois. They are 50 bucks for 3 on ebay.
Yeah 5 in an Impulsor with a buffing character seems pretty stellar with their 2dmg swords.
They are very strong in the current meta. The last tournament in my country prior to being lockdown hellblasters featured in the top list. Sure the unit is squishy for its points but its damage out put is huge. 3 plasma shots S7 ap4 d2 chews through stock primaris and the non overcharged variety is perfect vs SoB (my local meta features slightly more SoB players than others). They get at least one shot off protected by terrain or reserves and if the enemy is focusing your back field their not focusing your face slammers
U02dah4 wrote: They are very strong in the current meta. The last tournament in my country prior to being lockdown hellblasters featured in the top list. Sure the unit is squishy for its points but its damage out put is huge. 3 plasma shots S7 ap4 d2 chews through stock primaris and the non overcharged variety is perfect vs SoB (my local meta features slightly more SoB players than others). They get at least one shot off protected by terrain or reserves and if the enemy is focusing your back field their not focusing your face slammers
I'm not a fan of glass cannons. They just bleed points too quickly in general. Sure, they are great at killing marines. Everything 2 damage is.
Not everything puts out 15 plasma shots. Sure their a glass cannon but its fine to have a couple of glass cannon units in an army. For me it's them vs eradicators at the moment. With the eradicators being the optimised choice vs vehicles and hellblasters infantry. However metawise vehicles are a much rarer sight at the moment
U02dah4 wrote: Not everything puts out 15 plasma shots. Sure their a glass cannon but its fine to have a couple of glass cannon units in an army.
Maybe. I played back with target priority checks and the fact that enemy shooting can willy nilly pick out any target they want makes me very leery of glass cannons. An Insectum style oldboi list is just going to wipe these guys easily with grav cannons. The shorter range weapons can be used on melee elements.
Depends on your board - if you have large LOS blocking terrain the enemy can't pick you out (unless your playing vs guard artillery) if not you can always reserve.
U02dah4 wrote: Depends on your board - if you have large LOS blocking terrain the enemy can't pick you out (unless your playing vs guard artillery) if not you can always reserve.
I personally prefer to be as terrain independent as possible, and always assume that the enemy can kill what they want when they want. Then, if they can't, its gravy.
It's too late to change the list at that point. That's why I never use them. The reserve system might change things, but we know that invulns will be back soon enough.
Has anyone tried running either options of Terminators yet? I've considered running a squad of them to help hold the middle of the board and have the storm bolter shooting.
Blackheart77 wrote: Has anyone tried running either options of Terminators yet? I've considered running a squad of them to help hold the middle of the board and have the storm bolter shooting.
Statwise they are good at this for sure, except they aren't obsec. So watch out for that. But they are a hard unit to shift at this point.
Just stathammer but I struggle with the notion of basic terminators because Sanguinary Guard compete for the same role only have mobility
Assault terminators with claws same problem
Assault terminators with hammers these are a maybe assuming you strat them you end up with -1 to hit and to ap and A but +3S +1d and a loss of mobility you lose the -1 to be hit in melee but gain +1sv and a 4++ and 1 wound but you pay extra 65pts for 5.
So damage is comparable so win on mobility at edge it on defence but is it really worth the extra points. Overall I'd stick with sg but there not that far off
Bladeguard seem better to me. The only thing they lack is deepstrike. But chuck them in an Impulsor and they’ll get where they want and just mulch things. With our +1 to wound they can even do some good dmg vs vehicles.
at ap2 or ap3 in cover ap makes no difference (assuming stormshields).
Sure it takes twice as many shots vs damage 2 but your paying 65 pts per 5 as a privilege and you only have 50% more vs 1 damage weapons and no difference vs 3 dam+
And the -1 to hit in cc makes a big difference in sg favour
Yeah -1 to hit is pretty nice. But I will gladly pay 65 per 5 to double my durability vs 2 damage. SG are better if they have to go run something down, but I think terminators are better at center control.
What is everyone’s thoughts on scouts? As an elite choice now will they be worth it? Do they still fit a similar role they did in 8th, maybe not worth it at all?
trevant wrote: What is everyone’s thoughts on scouts? As an elite choice now will they be worth it? Do they still fit a similar role they did in 8th, maybe not worth it at all?
They should have been cheaper to be viable. Now they had been intentionally nerfed so they cannot be an alternative choice for incursors or infiltrators
Just topped a 16 player LGT and my friends are saying that I got too easy matchups. (ok, one 10y player at first round) We are having a beer gaming night next weekend with my mates, so they will "show" that my army got too easy win..
I felt my list solid, only did some minor changes to my previous setup.. got any insight that I should attend to?
here's my list, I think pre-supplement this is where we at..
Chief Librarian Mephiston (Primaris) [8 PL, 155pts]: 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura)
Primaris Chaplain on Bike [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, Benediction of Fury, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Imperium's Sword
I don't like the lone psyker, but it appears to be good at playing king of the hill in the middle of the board. Most marine units are at least a 7/10 now, so I'm not sure what they are talking about.
So, brothers of Sanguinius, we are getting our supplement! I’m very curious about our new ability, Death Visions. Anyone got any guesses as to what this will be?
U02dah4 wrote: I think there's a lot of sub optimal choices in the list that could be improved.
As to matches in a 16 man event its entirely possible and without knowing those lists its entirely difficult to be sure.
A lot of the sub optimal choices are not game breaking if played correctly just less than optimal
E g if your going to take mephiston why not upgrade to a librarian dreadnought at 0PTs.
Dante is overpriced for what he does
More sanguinary guard or vanguard vets would probably outperform the bladeguard
Sanguinary Guard should ideally have axes
Outriders are mediocre compared to some of our other CC options.
4 HQ choices is too many and its forced you into a second detachment costing CP you would be better deleateing one of the 4.
It feels like you've smashed two boxes of Indomitus into a bunch of characters.
i like your insight.
I actually used to run my BA as a batallion with lib dread and two redemptors with good success. But after reading the book "darkness in the blood" I just felt like wanting to add Mephy and Dante in my list. The fluff part in me you know..
I like outriders as an unit for early objective grabs.
As top meta-build I'd take my lib dread & two redemptors list for sure.
eventually it comes to how your list plays the mission and in both cases you can do it.
Smash chaplain for 115p is super good. It can kill anything in the game.
Dante is pricey for sure, but I've found uses for his CM buffs and -1 to hit against everything is reallly nice.
Well then your question is do you want an optimised list or a fluffy one.
And as much as mephiston is fluffy knowing an extra power is really not worth the superior combat abilities and durability of the dread.
Again as with most characters it's not that they don't have a role it's that when you total their points 585Pts on 4 models which means 30% of your army
Now when at my own competitive list I am running 4 Characters but total in at 435 22% of mine (Corbulo, Librarian dread+ melta, Captain+ Plasma pistol Relic blade and Chapter champion.) That's enough points saved for an extra unit of 5 sanguinary guard on top (or vanguard in my case). Remember while characters buff the more they have to buff the more you get out of them.
From a competitive point you need the priest
and I wouldn't be running the dread if I didn't value it
If you're going to run the chaplain I would make it a master of sanctity to get maximum value from it but it looks like your using it and Dante as beatsticks and your army has plenty of those so if one has to go it would likely be one of those two.
U02dah4 wrote: No because Savage Echoes only triggers when the assault doctrine is active. Its not active when done through the chalace.
The units effected only count as being in the assault doctrine
chalice says the assault doctrine is considered to be active for the attack
"Until the start of your next Command phase, if the Tactical Doctrine or Devastator Doctrine is active for your army, then each time a model in that unit makes an attack, the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active for that attack instead."
While a friendly Blood Angels
Core or Blood Angels Character unit (excluding
Vehicle units) is within 6" of this model, if the Tactical
Doctrine or Devastator Doctrine is active for your army,
then each time a model in that unit makes an attack,
the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active for that
attack instead.
It is not active for your army only the units within 6" Savage echoes triggers off your army's Doctrine
However their is no point in arguing about wording interaction when they could change it
U02dah4 wrote: While a friendly Blood Angels
Core or Blood Angels Character unit (excluding
Vehicle units) is within 6" of this model, if the Tactical
Doctrine or Devastator Doctrine is active for your army,
then each time a model in that unit makes an attack,
the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active for that
attack instead.
It is not active for your army only the units within 6"
read the new version in the article, it doesnt say it has to be active for the army. It says this unit.
If it said "Whilst the assault doctrine is active for this unit, "
Or "if this unit is effected by the assault doctrine,"
What would matter is the individual units doctrine and you would be correct
But "Whilst the assault doctrine is active" has no qualifier limiting it to the unit and so only checks if the doctrine is active or the army which its not
The first clause IS met, as the doctrine IS (considered to be) active according to the Red Grail/Blood Chalice rule, which reads
"[...] the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active [...]"
The first clause IS met, as the doctrine IS (considered to be) active according to the Red Grail/Blood Chalice rule, which reads
"[...] the Assault Doctrine is considered to be active [...]"
If this line of logic is sound can you explain to me why Dark Angels Talonmasters were barred from using their Heavy Weapons to snipe enemy characters even while under a rule that made them 'count as' assault weapons?
If this line of logic is sound can you explain to me why Dark Angels Talonmasters were barred from using their Heavy Weapons to snipe enemy characters even while under a rule that made them 'count as' assault weapons?
By heart? No - because I neither know the rule or wording of the the rule which lets DA Talonmasters snipe enemy charakters, nor do I know the rule / wording of the rule which lets their heavy weapons count as assault weapons...
And in regards to BA this isnt a question about the "count as"-part... its a question about limiters and qualifiers.
The "count as"-part is as clear as it can get - nobody ever argued about 8th edition Ultramarine Agressor shooting twice after moving while being target of the "Master of Strategy" Warlord trait either
Good shout on the talon master yes its the same ruling.
Yes the question is does. "Whilst the assault doctrine is active," refer to whether the assault doctrine is active.
Or does it refer to the unit the rule is attached to.
I can understand why they read it the way they do but as per the talonmaster there is no wording to indicate it checks the specific unit and without evidence of that it refers to the default army wide doctrine rule.
So
"Whilst the assault doctrine is active" is a requirement for it to be active for the army. If any other doctrine is active then the assault doctrine is not active so the condition is not met.
The article feels like a joke. 5 relics. Only 5 left? We had like 12.
And why the graple only on vehicles and then showing a dreadnought fighting a nid monster...
And We allready had al those rules.
DC getting locked in cc doesnt seem like a bonus.
I know, we should till release. But muh. I expected more of the articles
although I found it rare to field a full 10man anyways. But, now having doubts if inferno pistols are waste of points and, second lightning claw being non-efficient choice. also dual chainsword might be a handy cheap throw away model..
So how have you done your thought process.. on what do you think is most comp choice?
You want consistency LC Chainsword maximises damage output per pt whereas the stormshield variant works out 4pts a model more expensive but maximises durability with only a small reduction in damage output
The chainsword variant is better for suicide units and the shields if you want to hold the territory you hit
The mix would be because its easy to drop a shield or 2 if your list is fractionally over.
The claws are so good its not really worth another weapon but there are diminished returns for a second claw over a chainsword.
Krull wrote: The article feels like a joke. 5 relics. Only 5 left? We had like 12.
And why the graple only on vehicles and then showing a dreadnought fighting a nid monster...
And We allready had al those rules.
DC getting locked in cc doesnt seem like a bonus.
I know, we should till release. But muh. I expected more of the articles
I agree that the article was very uninspiring, showing lots of rules that we already knew about from the Index and a very lackluster strat that also removes one of our best previous strats.
I did like the ability to take two relics on a character, opens up some extra possibilities.
The 5 relic thing was expected, all supplement books have 7 relics and like the Imperial fists we are hampered by them shoehorning a successor chapter into our book which just means both the parent and successor get less rules which is a bit rubbish. Still add in the special issue relics and the ones from the marine book and there will be a healthy choice I am sure.
I'm just hoping that there are decent warlord traits and not just reprints of the old ones, that and I hope they haven't removed a load of our strats that work with jump infantry, I fear this as primaris don't have jumppacks.
As far as Vanguard Vet loadouts go, I like stormshields on everyone, it so cheap for the survivabilily buff it gives. Then a relic blade on the Srg, a fist or a hammer or two then the rest claws.
All this conversation made me go back to my old list build, it's all painted so no big changes inbound, I though I share ot anyway. this or with really minor tweaks has been my best list pre-supplement so far.
Back to to above topics.. still not sure what's the best take for van vets, blade vets just hit better point for point, but lack mobility, but in my games haven't had a problem to get them mid board where I want them.
New leaks on the supplement makes me fear that we might lose our best strats from 8th.. well we got many new units and strats from the SM codex, but still.. I want our flavor back. Those DC cpt/lt feel too much niche/fluffy rather than comp choice.
Pt for pt your assessment is wrong. Largely because vanguard have the same number of attacks better effective strength negligible difference in ap vs most targets and are cheaper. This means they outperform vs 1 W models and are even pretty similar vs 2 if built for damage output especially when taking into account ceiling effects
(Claw chainsword) 25 pt a model
Assuming assault doctrine charge and separating chainsword so can see shield variant output
5 Vanguard 125 pts Lclaw25 S4 RRW +1 to w ap3 1 dam
+ chainsword 5 s4 +1toW ap2 1dam
3 bladeguard 105pts 15 A s5 +1 to w ap4 2dam
vs intercessor
l claw 12.3W + chainsword 1.45 W
7ish dead intercessors
3 bladeguard 105pts = 16.8 W
8 dead intercessors
Only 5 intercessors in a squad so tie
conscript blob 16.1 dead from lC 2.8 from chainsword18.9 dead total
blade guard 8.4 dead clear winner vanguard
Vs terminators without SS 9.86 from l claw 1.1 chainsworsd or 3 and 2/3 termies
Bladeguard 11.4 or 2 and 2/3 termies
So a tie
The point I'm making is that the better assault unit varies on your target bladeguard output more damage in a vacuum but in real situations there's not a lot in it unless your hitting vehicles and against weak or invul targets the lightning claw is better.and goodluck getting your bladeguard to their vehicles because sang guard perform that role better
Automatically Appended Next Post: Missions
Fury of the lost is a guaranteed 15VP for a death company build which is great considering its a weaker build
Blade of sanguinius is fun 10VP easy vs a lot of armies but 15 is tricky but possibly achievable
Death from above weak 6VP easy maybe 9 if your useing drop pods however you can get it up to 15 with upon wings of fire but its fiddly
Relentless assault if you want to build a suicide attack list it could work
Missions overall pretty solid
Death company characters a nice boost for the sub par Death company build
Strats
Descent of angels - optional ignore modifiers on charges and +1 to hit Solid (when not compared to its previous wording
Vengience of sanguinius to situational
refusal to die okish
Aggresive onslaught solid - fleshtearers bigger pile ins
Angels sacrifice situational
Spiritual might - strong manifest extra psykic power)
Visions of sanguinius situational strong
Angel exemplar double warlord traiting strong
angel ascendent - giving quake bolts to a sgt broken
Lucifer engines meh
honoured by the arx give Ba relic to successor great if your successor
Red rampage Brokenly good but once per game especially on l claw builds
unbridled ardour sanguinary guard large heroic intervene - not bad but situational
Forlorn fury pregame more up to 12 for a DC unit reallyy strong
upon wings of fire remove and set up as reinforcement strong
savage destruction FT and weak
Chalace overflowing Situational but strong
Overall there's a lot there that's pretty good .
Warlord traits
1 speed of primarch Weak
2 Artisan of war pretty nice (remembering you can double warlord)
3 soulwarden very situational but could be helpfull in some matchups
4 heroic bearing +3" aura great
5 gift of foresight as a second warlord trait on a beatstick could be ok
6 Big heroic interventions meh
boosts to sanguinor dante and corbulo over pdf
Flesh tearers
merciless butcher nerfed from pdf
wrath of rage ok on a beatstick but theres better
cetacian born reroll charges and deny overwatch/set to defend second character imperiums sword
Nerf to seth
Overall 3 usefull options ok none are broken but its a boost
Sanguinary disipline
quickening rerol charges +d3 attacks broken as ever
unleash rage Core unit unmodified 6's to hit = extra hitra hits given lots of are units put out 30 hits a turn could be a nice boost
shield of sanguinius weak (if 5++ is what you want base codex has an aura for you or an Iq does it cheaper)
blood boil lesser smite
blood lance potentially strong but you need to be well positioned
6 wings of sanguinius flying librarian dreadnought still broken
Overall this is pretty damn strong if just because of quickening and wings but now you can potentially cast 3 a turn with a single dreadnought unleash rage or blood lance could see play
Relics
Wrath of baal has to be on ancient meh
icon of the angel now 6" mandatory take
Visage of death obsec denial and -1 to be hit interesting but probably wont see much play
hammer of baal its a better thunderhammer meh
gallian staff great but a librarian dreadnought is probably better in most circumstances
crimson plate okish but FT only
severer okish ut ft only
Biomantic sarcophagus vanished booooo
Ft ability to double res also vanished
Overall the icons broken the rest are not terrible but mostly on specific units yu wont take but not enough to make it worth takeing
special issue
staples
quake bolts broken and you can put on a sgt
archeangel shard a nice upgrade on a power sword a weak one on a master crafted powersword
fleshrender grenades meh
gleaming pinions reroll charges ok on a lone smash captain
Quake bolts alone make this section great
PTs couldnt see any changes in my skim
Overall pretty strong many of our toys have remained intact and we have gained many from the base SM codex
DC got a significant boost
FT nerfed but you never saw them anyway
The missions alone make BA much stronger in 9th with 3 out 4 acheivable by the right lists
With the new terrain rules (and how the board is set up obviously), is it possible to deepstrike behind line of site blocking terrain then move and charge the turn after? I don’t really like relying on charging from deepstrike, especially now we don’t seem to have the 3 dice charge strat anymore, based on the leaks.
So now your entire army can be Death Company? But how do you then score objectives in missions which require actions for the primaries? Having Black Rage means you cannot use actions, right? And every DC model has Black Rage?
tauist wrote: So now your entire army can be Death Company? But how do you then score objectives in missions which require actions for the primaries? Having Black Rage means you cannot use actions, right? And every DC model has Black Rage?
Apart from crusade no scenario requires actions. Primaries are hold 1/2, hold 2/3, hold more. No actions. Actions come on secondaries so you can simply choose ones that don't require actions. Does limit your options but can't expect to field skewed one-dimensional list and have all options now can you?-)
If this line of logic is sound can you explain to me why Dark Angels Talonmasters were barred from using their Heavy Weapons to snipe enemy characters even while under a rule that made them 'count as' assault weapons?
By heart? No - because I neither know the rule or wording of the the rule which lets DA Talonmasters snipe enemy charakters, nor do I know the rule / wording of the rule which lets their heavy weapons count as assault weapons...
And in regards to BA this isnt a question about the "count as"-part... its a question about limiters and qualifiers.
The "count as"-part is as clear as it can get - nobody ever argued about 8th edition Ultramarine Agressor shooting twice after moving while being target of the "Master of Strategy" Warlord trait either
And if they wanted it to just be extra AP they would write as extra AP. Whole assault doctrine thing is pointless then.
And at least supplement was playtested with assumption it gives full assault doctrine bonus.
Just an FYI, the new supplement has full scans out in the wild.
Big changes ahead, most of what we used before has been removed or heavily watered down.
There is some good stuff but on a whole its alot more vanilla especially the stratagems.
No standard of Sacrifice, no 3D6 charge, no redeploy same turn, no heroic intervention (only works on sang guard), no biomantic sar, no good heroic deed to use with Dante, psy powers are the same just toned down....
Death visions are cool and will make for great smash captains.
You have to factor in that we have access to the base marine codex now so sure the psychic powers might not be quite as strong but we also have the generic options we didn't have last edition.
Sure we dont have as many great relics but we have access to the vanilla codex relics and powers
Sure no 3d6 charge or 6" 5+++ bubble but
lots of ways to have out marines hitting on 2's and rerolling charges
Stand outs
Missions
Warlord traits
Heroic bearing
Artisan of War
Relics
Icon of the angel
Quake bolts
Psychic powers
Quickening, Wings, Unleash rage.
Strats
Forlorn fury
Upon wings of Fire
Red Rampage
angel ascendent
angel exemplar
Descent of angels
Death visions
Theirs enough their to separate the faction outside of our special units and a huge improvement over the index PDF
Whilst we are still going to be good (we are marines) I'm just finding it hard to be excited when I look at the new book as everything just seems worse than before, that doesn't mean it is bad but it is a downgrade which just isn't nice when its your favourite faction.
Lets take a look at you list.
Stand outs
Missions I see them as pretty situational unless you really build to them. The DC one is the only one that you could really ever get 15pts from and then you would have to have gone all in on a DC list.
Warlord traits These are certainly better than before, none are super good but they are certainly worth taking after you've picked up a couple from the marine book.
Heroic bearing
Artisan of War
Relics The Icon will appear in every list, more because there aren't any other decent options than it being super powerful. The bolts are good but they have changed alot of bonuses to being +1 to hit so this doesn't stack well. This is an area where we suffer from having the Flesh Tearers in the book, we lose two relics so that they can print two for FT that won't be used by 99% of the players.
Icon of the angel
Quake bolts
Psychic powers Our powers aren't bad they are just worse than they were before - Wings not doesn't last for your next movement phase and rage gives a situational extra hit instead of guaranteed extra attack.
Quickening, Wings, Unleash rage.
Strats This is where the real problems lie, there is alot here that is either a general strat that appears in all supplements or is just a worse version of a previous one.
Forlorn Fury is the same but you don't get to advance, Upon wings now loses you a turn whilst you redeploy, Red Rampage looks good until you do the math (it generates one extra failed save for every 54 attacks (on a 3+) that you make), Descent of Angels is a good Stratagem but its just not as good as it was, similar with unbridaled Ardour that has nothing wrong with it other than it now targets a single unit type instead of anything in your army.
Forlorn fury
Upon wings of Fire
Red Rampage
angel ascendent
angel exemplar
Descent of angels
Death visions These are good, makes for a nasty smash captain. Two of the bonuses are really good and the other is situational at very best. The main issue is that each can only be used once per game and with a strat to allow a single character to use two you will only ever take a single guy with this.
Theirs enough their to separate the faction outside of our special units and a huge improvement over the index PDF
Its certainly better than the PDF but I'd argue that its not as good or as interesting as we were at the start of 9th, being in the main codex has certainly made us better space marines but it has made us worse blood angels.
Now that swords are str 5 on marines you will at worst wound at 4+ and always have 3 ap. Now that we can have null zone as well the extra ap isnt even wasted. Sure the axe is probably better against t5/t6 with invuls but a lot of the t5 models you see, custodes and gravis, also have a version of transhuman so the extra str is wasted there anyway.
Now that swords are str 5 on marines you will at worst wound at 4+ and always have 3 ap. Now that we can have null zone as well the extra ap isnt even wasted. Sure the axe is probably better against t5/t6 with invuls but a lot of the t5 models you see, custodes and gravis, also have a version of transhuman so the extra str is wasted there anyway.
Because on T1 your not slamming anything and on T3+ or if chaliced Axes are AP3 where as swords are AP4
So in terms of S Axes gain a bonus Vs T5 T6 and T3 with -1 to hit
Terms of AP Swords gain a bonus vs 3+ or better provided they dont have an invul. Sure as you point out custodes can strat but they cant strat everything and forceing them to use CP isnt a bad thing.
Now if your baseing your plans against only marines then Swords are arguably close unless you come up aganst melee builds of vanguard with stormshields or bladeguards or outriders or attack bikes. Against most standard 2 wound 3+ models both units wipe the squad. Where axes shine is when you start hitting bikes, custodes and light vehicles. where swords shine is against 2+ or 3+ large squads without invuls however they are much rarer
Then it comes back to what you want your sanguinary guard to be killing - are they hunting intercessors or are they going after the things that are a bigger threat (and we have plenty of toys to stab an intercessor more cheaply)
Null zone is a risky power in a lot of BA builds. 3/4 of my army usually has an invul and they get stripped aswell certainly can work but building to minimise self harm from nullzone is limiting
I usually only have 2-4 invul saves in total in my BA lists so for me it usually isnt much of a problem. I was thinking of using a chief librarian with tome of malcador so you can have null zone and wings on the same model all with +1 to cast. Should help in getting that null zone where you want it. Probably the invul aura(for when you dont null zone) or might of heroes as the third spell.
You are right though that axes arent bad either. Meta and personal choice is probably as important as math in this case. I wouldnt ever use a powerfist as long as they cost more though. Not worth it to pay more to only be slightly better against t6 and t7 and be worse or equal against everything else.
WisdomLS wrote: Whilst we are still going to be good (we are marines) I'm just finding it hard to be excited when I look at the new book as everything just seems worse than before, that doesn't mean it is bad but it is a downgrade which just isn't nice when its your favourite faction.
Lets take a look at you list.
Stand outs
Missions I see them as pretty situational unless you really build to them. The DC one is the only one that you could really ever get 15pts from and then you would have to have gone all in on a DC list.
Warlord traits These are certainly better than before, none are super good but they are certainly worth taking after you've picked up a couple from the marine book.
Heroic bearing
Artisan of War
Relics The Icon will appear in every list, more because there aren't any other decent options than it being super powerful. The bolts are good but they have changed alot of bonuses to being +1 to hit so this doesn't stack well. This is an area where we suffer from having the Flesh Tearers in the book, we lose two relics so that they can print two for FT that won't be used by 99% of the players.
Icon of the angel
Quake bolts
Psychic powers Our powers aren't bad they are just worse than they were before - Wings not doesn't last for your next movement phase and rage gives a situational extra hit instead of guaranteed extra attack.
Quickening, Wings, Unleash rage.
Strats This is where the real problems lie, there is alot here that is either a general strat that appears in all supplements or is just a worse version of a previous one.
Forlorn Fury is the same but you don't get to advance, Upon wings now loses you a turn whilst you redeploy, Red Rampage looks good until you do the math (it generates one extra failed save for every 54 attacks (on a 3+) that you make), Descent of Angels is a good Stratagem but its just not as good as it was, similar with unbridaled Ardour that has nothing wrong with it other than it now targets a single unit type instead of anything in your army.
Forlorn fury
Upon wings of Fire
Red Rampage
angel ascendent
angel exemplar
Descent of angels
Death visions These are good, makes for a nasty smash captain. Two of the bonuses are really good and the other is situational at very best. The main issue is that each can only be used once per game and with a strat to allow a single character to use two you will only ever take a single guy with this.
Theirs enough their to separate the faction outside of our special units and a huge improvement over the index PDF
Its certainly better than the PDF but I'd argue that its not as good or as interesting as we were at the start of 9th, being in the main codex has certainly made us better space marines but it has made us worse blood angels.
Missions - Yes you need to build to those missions to get the most out of them but there are viable builds that can do so. Yes at one level that perfect mission that gives you 15vp whatever you throw in a list would be nice from a winning perspective but its bad design. These missions are viable choices if not for all lists but incentivise variation between BA lists and other chapters thats a good thing
WL Yes you have to view these as a supplement to base codex and imperiums sword is still going to be a common pick
Rel yes there are a lot of bonus that give +1 to hit doesn't stop +1 to hit from being really strong and im pretty sure i can get the majority of my units +1 to hit which is going to be really powerfull
Powers I agree but a bit like WL we also have the codex options maybe not quite as good but certainly viable in some builds
Strats again are you comparing what it does now with the index in the context of 9th or are you comparing it to the last codex. When compared to the last codex remembering we have gained all the base codex there is a lot here. and in terms of power sure ill acknowledge reduction in some areas because some abilities were broken its why 8th was largely hero hammer you didn't see many BA in list in most of the edition, you saw a supreme command detatchments of silly strats in another army. This codex feels more like its geared towards building cohesive armys than superman.
Again it depends how you view red ramage 1 in 54 sounds bad but as covered most of those units will be hitting on 2's because there are so many ways to do so now and probably rerolling 1's so much closer to 1 in 6 except then factor in lightning claws, blood talons etc reroll W and you get to between 1/3 of 1/4 rather than 1/54 also then remember that most of our units in the assault doctrine run 5-7A and it effects every unit we have That seems pretty damn strong. What does it matter if descent of angels is not as strong it's still pretty damn strong and wasn't available in the index and a lot of other chapters would love it.
My question with the new codex is does it open up some viable builds that are different to other chapters and I think it does
Can it compete - it would seem to have all the tools to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klickor wrote: I usually only have 2-4 invul saves in total in my BA lists so for me it usually isnt much of a problem. I was thinking of using a chief librarian with tome of malcador so you can have null zone and wings on the same model all with +1 to cast. Should help in getting that null zone where you want it. Probably the invul aura(for when you dont null zone) or might of heroes as the third spell.
You are right though that axes arent bad either. Meta and personal choice is probably as important as math in this case. I wouldnt ever use a powerfist as long as they cost more though. Not worth it to pay more to only be slightly better against t6 and t7 and be worse or equal against everything else.
Yeah there was a rules thread on that that degenerated RAW tome doesnt let you do that although some people contested under RAI you should ask a TO if your running it to an event theres a good chance youll be limited to one disipline because the librarian is limited to picking from only one (the tome isnt limited but the librarian can only pick the same or its violateing its rules)
oh I agree meta makes a difference and if you know it that can help but as a standard axes outperform or equal vs every army except SM and SoB and against SM often the targets you send SG against are more vulnerable to axes. In general Sm account for 30% of the current meta and SoB about 4% that leaves about 2/3rds but locally things may be differnt
If I want to use death company Intercessors, what’s the best way to use them? A unit of 5 and a chaplain in an Impulsor? Forlorn Fury a unit of 10 up the table?
Waiting for the supplement to check this, but wonder if you could combine heroic bearing WT with vox espiritum relic and throw an extra WT for your reiver LT or such for rites of battle. would be hilarious to take the midboard with 24" ob sec bubble for all core units. But this must not be the case.
Well this supplement is what we get, I like it's not OP and not total crap either. Maybe less SM this SM that BS from my mates when they get their codeces.
I don't know if it's best but I'm going to try 9 with 1 fist and bolt rifles chumming around with a chaplin or Astorath. That should take a bit of shifting.
U02dah4 wrote: They have a lot of A but don't really have any weapons worth speaking of that makes them a screen clearer.
Ah right okay. So I’ll give them a hammer to go after Elites and heroes you reckon?
If they could all have hammers great with just the sgt i'm not sure you will increase effectiveness enough. Of course if you have a few points left over there's no harm in it
While consuming the new supplement I want to try the visage of the dead relic straight away.
I have two ideas:
First is to use the relic with a captain with rites of war to get a unit that can be used to force score an objective. 2nd idea is to give it to my JP sang priest because he is anyway only for buffing, although I ölike him with teeth of terra too.
What do you think what would be your pick to use the combo? I used a reiver LT in similar role with ok success..
I started converting a new smash captain with a relic blade and the mask, pic as a teaser below.
Now I'm feeling that a jump pack, relic blade and storm shield is a nice go for the captain. Gonna try him as:
captain - jump pack - relic blade - storm shield
warlord: Rites of war, 2nd WT artisan of war
relics: Visage of the dead, 2nd relic: master-crafted weapon
feels quite pricey to lose, but atleast I think it looks cool
Given captjains already have a 4++ stormshields give them a lot less value now. I've been moving mine to combi meltas (5pts) or plasma pistols (free).it will probably be more effective than +1sv
2nd you can't take 2 warlord traits and two relics
The only way you can take 2 relics would be with the artisan of War warlord trait
Xirax wrote: that shield note is true.. 2+ save only handy on massed small arms fire in cover/no cover. wonder if inferno pistols could be worth it.
As pistols go value wise a free plasma beats a 5pt inferno.
The inferno also struggles with range on a DS. Where as a combi metal costs the same points has twice the range and boltgun shots in appropriate situations its also assault on the melta not pistol.
combi-melta is for sure the most comp choice now.. Really hard choice to remodel that model though, I like the looks how it turned.. maybe even too much... this is a tough one to put my fluff side away.. maybe if I can find bulky combi-melta bitz
Xirax wrote: that shield note is true.. 2+ save only handy on massed small arms fire in cover/no cover. wonder if inferno pistols could be worth it.
As pistols go value wise a free plasma beats a 5pt inferno.
The inferno also struggles with range on a DS. Where as a combi metal costs the same points has twice the range and boltgun shots in appropriate situations its also assault on the melta not pistol.
FYI Battlescribe has this wrong and the fusion pistol is free according to the codex. I'm not sure this changes anything but I thought it was worth pointing out.
DC Intercessors question since we were just talking about them. Heard this the other day and wondering if someone with the book/rules can confirm - DC Intercessor Sergeants cannot take special-weapon upgrades outside of Pistols per RAW (if the unit takes all Chainswords)!!!?
This is terrible and wastes the units potential even further if true.
the new beta battle forge confirms that we can upgrade the sanguinary priest into chief apothecary. There were some doubts, so now it's certain. We have the best healer in adeptus astartes imho. Still need the confirmation through a faq that do we get savage echoes with the blood chalice ability, but I'm optimistic. Only real downside is that our crowded HQ section takes one slot for this..
Sad that Lib dread and mephy is restricted to sanguinary discipline, would have been great to use tome of malcador for a power from the SM discipline.
Has anyone else used redemptor dreads in BA lists?
However to the point in question the rules are crystal clear that you can take a sanguinary priest as a cheif Apothecary.
The only limitation is you can't take one and corbulo
Unless a faq changes things by raw you do not get Savage echoes (but that bit is atleast grey because rai could well be different)
Again tome RAW you can't take from a second disipline. Although their is some grey rai arguments see long ymdc thread on the issue so that doesn't really make any difference that libby dread can't take it as you couldn't do that anyway
I'm not that sold on S.Priests - what makes them so good?
Being stuck with a chainsword is a huge disappointment imo, and their key buff is essentially only useful on turn 2 if you intend to move to the assault doctrine naturally anyway.
ressing dead bike, SG, blade vet, termie for free? you can always give the teeth of terra for melee punch. I like them personally, an auto-include for me.
What rule is it that it can res a dead model?
I cant see it.
It says it can heal a model D3 wounds. Thats it.
A model, so the model still as to be alive right
Which makes the strata to do it again very situational.
There has to be an other wounded model near te priest
U02dah4 wrote: Its a strategem in the sm codex that targets the apothecary keyword
Pff i really don't like the need of 2 codexes, 2 sets of stratagem cards,...
Why don't they just make a codex for each army?
I never brought psychers to my battles, but i see many lists with lib dreads and mephiston.
But if i go trough the BA psychic powers... there are 2 powers usefull and they are self buff and then they have to be in combat.
How do you make psychers work for BA? Can someone help me with it?
The other powers seem so... underwelming.
I fight a lot against nids and thousand sons, they seem to have a lot more usefull spells.
U02dah4 wrote: Its a strategem in the sm codex that targets the apothecary keyword
Pff i really don't like the need of 2 codexes, 2 sets of stratagem cards,...
Why don't they just make a codex for each army?
I never brought psychers to my battles, but i see many lists with lib dreads and mephiston.
But if i go trough the BA psychic powers... there are 2 powers usefull and they are self buff and then they have to be in combat.
How do you make psychers work for BA? Can someone help me with it?
The other powers seem so... underwelming.
I fight a lot against nids and thousand sons, they seem to have a lot more usefull spells.
Why would GW be okay with you buying just one codex when they can force you to buy two?
BA psychic powers are for buffing melee units, the self-buffs are great for Libby Dreads or Mephy, and Unleash Rage is great for buffing other squads.
Why would they be happy with you buying two when they can tack on mini expansions every 3 months.
The way I seeing libby dread is great for a 3rd or 4th character your getting a durable mobile beatstick that doesnt require cp for relics. But that is what it does and I am not sure personally that is the best way to go.
It can move 6 wings 12 and quickening reroll the charge meaning like DC it can potentialy charge T1 only not requiring CP at the expense of doing so less reliably
If I was taking a libby dread I would probably tac on coteaz aswell because once you've taken one psyker theirs not much penalty to taking a second
However I think your probably better off pumping those points into elites
Working on a firstborn jump pack captain build here for my Slamguinius model. He's built using a death mask helm, sanguinary guard armor, and a death company 2 handed thunder hammer with some minor modifications, as well as a holstered pistol. (I never went for the storm shield option, he was a fire and forget missile in most of 8th and would reliably kill something before dying to the crack back.)
That said, I've mostly settled on the core build, but am looking at some other options for relic and second warlord trait using the stratagem.
Core build is Captain with Jump Pack, inferno pistol, and thunder hammer with his Iron Halo built in. Warlord, so my regular warlord trait is artisan of war to give him a 2+ save to go along with his 4++ save, effectively netting him a 'free' storm shield.
So, first question is the standard relic I can give him. I'm strongly leaning toward the Visage of Death, as turning off Ob-Sec and making him -1 to hit in melee sounds fun, but, the Hammer of Baal is so, so good. No -1 to hit, AP:3, and 3 damage is just studly. Most games I'll likely go with the Hammer of Baal, but the Visage of Death is probably my favorite from a general utility standpoint, especially since this character wants to get stuck-in and wreck house. Opinions on this?
Secondly, the additional warlord trait for -1 CP Strat, Angel Exemplar. This one has several options and each has it's own merits.
The one I tend to think has the most utility is Gift of Foresight, since it frees up CP being spent on rerolls to help the captain be more dangerous and hopefully more durable, while still allowing for a CP to re-roll as well for a few particularly bad dice rolls.
Secondly is good ole Emperor's Sword from the core marine codex. Reroll charge rolls is huge, with +1 attack, and +1 strength means I don't care if you're toughness 8, I'm wounding you on 2's, barring you have some crazy to-wound roll cap like Dark Angels Deathwing. I like this one a lot, but I feel like it's more of a side-grade to Gift of Foresight, and with the CP I'll save on other re-rolls I can re-roll the charge roll. Still, it's worth considering for sure.
Thirdly is Speed of the Primarch. The simple option, but potentially the most useful, as I'll have five attacks hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's (usually) at AP: -3 and 3 damage against anything that manages to get the charge off on me. That said, the fight before you die stratagem (OIDDDE) will at least let me kill or severely hurt anything that does charge in and fight before/kill my Captain, but this way I potentially preserve my Captain by striking first before they swing on me. Of the four options presented here, this one is a very close second to Gift of Foresight, and likely the one I'll try next time I manage to play.
The fourth option is more of a "if I opt to use the Visage of Death relic" instead of the Hammer of Baal. I pick up Rites of War to make my Core choices & characters Ob-Sec. So I turn off your Ob-Sec within 3" and my model(s) around my Captain gain Ob-Sec if they don't already have it (Provided they're core). I see this getting good mileage with as objective oriented the missions are.
So, that's my thoughts/musings on that. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated and I thank you for reading if you've gotten this far.
Working on a firstborn jump pack captain build here for my Slamguinius model. He's built using a death mask helm, sanguinary guard armor, and a death company 2 handed thunder hammer with some minor modifications, as well as a holstered pistol. (I never went for the storm shield option, he was a fire and forget missile in most of 8th and would reliably kill something before dying to the crack back.)
That said, I've mostly settled on the core build, but am looking at some other options for relic and second warlord trait using the stratagem.
Core build is Captain with Jump Pack, inferno pistol, and thunder hammer with his Iron Halo built in. Warlord, so my regular warlord trait is artisan of war to give him a 2+ save to go along with his 4++ save, effectively netting him a 'free' storm shield.
So, first question is the standard relic I can give him. I'm strongly leaning toward the Visage of Death, as turning off Ob-Sec and making him -1 to hit in melee sounds fun, but, the Hammer of Baal is so, so good. No -1 to hit, AP:3, and 3 damage is just studly. Most games I'll likely go with the Hammer of Baal, but the Visage of Death is probably my favorite from a general utility standpoint, especially since this character wants to get stuck-in and wreck house. Opinions on this?
Secondly, the additional warlord trait for -1 CP Strat, Angel Exemplar. This one has several options and each has it's own merits.
The one I tend to think has the most utility is Gift of Foresight, since it frees up CP being spent on rerolls to help the captain be more dangerous and hopefully more durable, while still allowing for a CP to re-roll as well for a few particularly bad dice rolls.
Secondly is good ole Emperor's Sword from the core marine codex. Reroll charge rolls is huge, with +1 attack, and +1 strength means I don't care if you're toughness 8, I'm wounding you on 2's, barring you have some crazy to-wound roll cap like Dark Angels Deathwing. I like this one a lot, but I feel like it's more of a side-grade to Gift of Foresight, and with the CP I'll save on other re-rolls I can re-roll the charge roll. Still, it's worth considering for sure.
Thirdly is Speed of the Primarch. The simple option, but potentially the most useful, as I'll have five attacks hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's (usually) at AP: -3 and 3 damage against anything that manages to get the charge off on me. That said, the fight before you die stratagem (OIDDDE) will at least let me kill or severely hurt anything that does charge in and fight before/kill my Captain, but this way I potentially preserve my Captain by striking first before they swing on me. Of the four options presented here, this one is a very close second to Gift of Foresight, and likely the one I'll try next time I manage to play.
The fourth option is more of a "if I opt to use the Visage of Death relic" instead of the Hammer of Baal. I pick up Rites of War to make my Core choices & characters Ob-Sec. So I turn off your Ob-Sec within 3" and my model(s) around my Captain gain Ob-Sec if they don't already have it (Provided they're core). I see this getting good mileage with as objective oriented the missions are.
So, that's my thoughts/musings on that. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated and I thank you for reading if you've gotten this far.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Ok a few bits of feedback on this, always nice to see a smash captain :-)
Firstly are you planing on making him Deathcompany? I think the bonuses from it can really help with making a killer smasher.
Relic wise I really like the Mask but think it is best used with the WL Trait to give an aura of Obsec, combined these mean your character automatically steals any objective they move onto. With just the mask your lone character is still unlikely to capture objectives without help to up the numbers in your favour and taking both the Trait and Relic kinda removes alot of the "smash" from your captain.
If you've slashed out for a thunder hammer I think the relic is a good idea as its a big improvement, depending on what you want him to go after master crafting it instead for 4 Dam could be useful but only if you have a way of re-rolling hits.
I think you want the Stormshield on him (as he has a two handed weapon mounting a smaller shield on his arm or back can work well), wasting a WL trait or Relic slot to get what a 10pt item can give you is a big opportunity cost you are paying. If you still want to take the armour it's even better with the SS as you go to a 1+ save and can nicely tank AP0,-1,-2.
Warlord trait wise I think the two best options are Imperiums Sword for the Re-roll charge and extra attack/Str or Gift of Foresight for the extra reliability and survivability it bring - both together is boss!
Speed of the primarch is a trap, it says always strikes first which sounds great but it doesn't really work that way. The rare rules section of the rulebook explains how these things interact but basically it works as follows:
You charge - you get to hit first anyway, it has no effect.
You get charged - the enemy gets to choose one of their chargers to attack first then you get to choose your always strikes first dude - sounds wrong but thats how it is. Charging basically gives always strikes first in which case the player who's turn it is chooses the first combatant in the strikes first step of the combat phase.
It does have a small use for stopping always strikes last effects but that is pretty edge case.
Ok a few bits of feedback on this, always nice to see a smash captain :-)
Firstly are you planing on making him Deathcompany? I think the bonuses from it can really help with making a killer smasher.
Relic wise I really like the Mask but think it is best used with the WL Trait to give an aura of Obsec, combined these mean your character automatically steals any objective they move onto. With just the mask your lone character is still unlikely to capture objectives without help to up the numbers in your favour and taking both the Trait and Relic kinda removes alot of the "smash" from your captain.
If you've slashed out for a thunder hammer I think the relic is a good idea as its a big improvement, depending on what you want him to go after master crafting it instead for 4 Dam could be useful but only if you have a way of re-rolling hits.
I think you want the Stormshield on him (as he has a two handed weapon mounting a smaller shield on his arm or back can work well), wasting a WL trait or Relic slot to get what a 10pt item can give you is a big opportunity cost you are paying. If you still want to take the armour it's even better with the SS as you go to a 1+ save and can nicely tank AP0,-1,-2.
Warlord trait wise I think the two best options are Imperiums Sword for the Re-roll charge and extra attack/Str or Gift of Foresight for the extra reliability and survivability it bring - both together is boss!
Speed of the primarch is a trap, it says always strikes first which sounds great but it doesn't really work that way. The rare rules section of the rulebook explains how these things interact but basically it works as follows:
You charge - you get to hit first anyway, it has no effect.
You get charged - the enemy gets to choose one of their chargers to attack first then you get to choose your always strikes first dude - sounds wrong but thats how it is. Charging basically gives always strikes first in which case the player who's turn it is chooses the first combatant in the strikes first step of the combat phase.
It does have a small use for stopping always strikes last effects but that is pretty edge case.
Thanks for the feedback!
Firstly, no I'm not going to be running him as a Death Company version at present, though I am strongly considering building an alternative version of this character later complete with the suggested storm shield + Artificer Armor & master crafted 4 damage hammer + Imperium's Sword WL Trait.
As for the current Hammer Captain, this is the model I'm using:
Spoiler:
My decision right now is do I make him as killy as possible, hammer of baal relic with a pistol of some kind (likely Inferno) and Gift of Forsight/Imperium's Sword, or do I give him Ob-Sec/turn off opponent's ob-sec utility at the cost of his smashy-ness.
I'm leaning toward staying dangerous/killy vs. trying to do too many things at once and not being as effective at his job: Smashing stuff.
I'll playtest these options and see which one I like the most.
Appreciate the feedback WisdomLS. I'll update once I have a chance to get some actual dice rolled and see what my results are.
EldarExarch wrote: DC Intercessors question since we were just talking about them. Heard this the other day and wondering if someone with the book/rules can confirm - DC Intercessor Sergeants cannot take special-weapon upgrades outside of Pistols per RAW (if the unit takes all Chainswords)!!!?
This is terrible and wastes the units potential even further if true.
Sorry I missed that in the data sheet because of the ridiculous way it phrases the options on that entry ( like all of the intercessor entries in the main SM book).
So if I took a unit of DC intercessors with heavy bolt pistols and chainswords I couldn’t give one of them a power sword/fist or a thunder hammer but if they had bolt rifles of some kind I could?
But a unit of firstborn death company can all take power swords/axes/mauls/fists or thunder hammers?
Annoyingly there’s an image of a death company intercessors squad in the supplement in the army showcase section all with chain swords and one of them has a power sword!
It was probably an error and just poor wording on the writer's point. Hence the showcase of an 'illegal' loadout.
However, if my experience of GW's other games is anything to go by, now it's published they won't admit error and just continue with that being 'just as intended'.
kirotheavenger wrote: It was probably an error and just poor wording on the writer's point. Hence the showcase of an 'illegal' loadout.
However, if my experience of GW's other games is anything to go by, now it's published they won't admit error and just continue with that being 'just as intended'.
If they're anything like me it might be more due to them reading the unit entry about a dozen times, still failing to understand what the restrictions actually are and just going "feth it". I'm really struggling to figure out what GW were trying to achieve with the DC Intercessor entry, both literally (as in, it's really difficult to understand) and in terms of balance. Assuming I'm understanding the loadout options and restrictions it just seems really unnecessary.
I'm pretty sure what they meant is that the whole unit could have either rifles or swords, and of those one person could have one fancy melee weapons.
But they didn't realise that the way they worded those options, taking swords overrode the ability to take a fancy melee weapon.
They were probably so rushed to write this that they only read it once, figured it made sense to them, then passed it off.
GW seems to lack technical editors, so the editor just checked that it made linguistic sense (having no concept of what the mechanic should be) and passed it along.
And that's how we ended up with what we have.
The FAQ may fix it. In fairness the 40k team is way better equipped/managed than the specialist games team so it may well get fixed.
I disagree with you, Angel's sacrifice is one of best strats to have in the toolbox. It isn't a nerf, just clarification.
I feared thst we would get some points increase to sanguinary guard so nothing bad from the faq for BA. Inceptor increase in points is what 25'ish points increase / squad so really manageable.
I've found the new BA really strong in the current meta.
As a BA player I didn't see the outriders points increase and eradicators could have gone up +10p and people would have still used them.
Overall efficiency aside, now that the FAQ has definitively ruled on the weapon options available for Death Company Intercessors, what builds are people considering? Guns vs melee? Special weapon on “Sgt”? 5 vs 10?
I have 9 with ABR and 1 fist and I'm going to try them like that to begin with. I do have 2 more I can make so if they don't work I'll try 2x5 and see how that goes.
I'm tempted by a melee squad with the thoughts of making a full Death Company army in the future. I don't think it would play the 9th ed game very well but I'd certainly enjoy playing the fluffy side (kill 'em all and die trying).
I see no reason to use death company intercessors the unit is weak for its points as it can't take real melee weapons so sanguinary guard, vanguard vets or LC terminators will always be better. Meanwhile they are too slow to forlorn hope and if your gonna reserve them assault intercessors do a more pts efficient job because of the fight twice strat.
So sad to see the state of blood angel affairs after martel/second chance left. rip.
I'm looking to get back into 40k with my first army: blood angels. Although since my old army is gone, i'm starting again with primaris. My angle is that they're 'marines' who from the beginning of 8th seemed to be primarily shooting focus, while still being annoying in a TAC (*1) because every time they charge or you charge them they get +1 to wound (*2). I can field a 1k list atm, but it'll change radically at 2k (*3)
at 1k points: (lets see if i remember spoilers)
Spoiler:
captain in gravis armour
librarian in phobos armour: tenebrous tangle and temporal corridor
2x 5 intercessors with grenade launcher
1x 5 infiltrators with helix array (painted white with bits stuck on to the radio array)
1x5 aggressors with flame cannons (*4)
1x5 reivers with grav chutes and grapnel launchers and heavy bolt pistols (*5)
1x3 inceptor squad with combat bolters or w/e
The plan is, the (*6) *deep breath* incessors hold the back objective, the infiltrators hold *near* a mid objective (*7) with the librarian and leap onto it, the gravis look scary although tbh they don't need the captain so he can protect and objective from assault. The reavers (who for some reason can't infiltrate) use their movement shennanigans to get near the backfield with the inceptors. I'll throw the reivers in if i need combat for sure, but with the right deepstrike i can just park them <3 from an enemy to screw their morale and then shoot them till they run away from basic stuff. Plus they're no slouches in close combat (*8)
Thoughts and opinions are welcome. I'm building towards 1,500 points (which will change the list a fair bit towards more heavy support) (*9) but i'm hopefully not looking to go much higher than that as i like when you have to make hard choices on what you bring.
*1 its a long way off, but i prefer tac lists
*2 in addition to shock assault and assault doctrine attack
*3 primaris mephiston was one of my first purchases and paint jobs, but he might be cheesy and i wanna start casual, also i painted his armour blue because gdi mephiston you're a librarian, go back and paint your armour till you're ready to come back out
*4 yeah my indomintus finally came in, and outriders are better for low range fast attacks. But dangit i don't think aggressors are that bad overall and the autohit feature is something i'm lacking.
*5 yeah i know, they look bad on paper for dps. But the shenanigans they can cause (depending on board), like -2 leadership when they're more than 1" away while everyone who can shoots at the target? its like the spider pig from the simpsons, i need to at least see what i can do with them. Plus, they look cool with double-vanes *6 its hurting my brain remembering all the snowflake names
*7 my understanding is that you can't place an objective in terrain
*8 why gw, why didn't you give them chainswords.
*9 if and when they get assembled and painted
Your list feels like it would be better as a non blood angel list you have ignored the melee options and special units that make BA lists unique and BA offers little to the units you have picked that other chapters can't do better.
If it were me I would not consider any of those units in a BA list except the intercessors and even then I would probably go for assault intercessors
Combat bolters are weak compared to plasma on interceptors
Aggressers are weak since 9th codex
Reivers are terrible
The only librarian worth taking is the dreadnought and I'm not sure that makes the cut
And the gravis captain is outmatched by its old school equivalents
If I were looking at units this would be your core
HQ 2-3
Terminator CPT Thunder hammer combi-melta (your buffer to Land with your deepstrikerz)
LIBRARIAN dreadnought/lemartes (Your T1 CC missile)
Astorath/primaris chaplain on bike. (Half buff/half beatstick)
Sanguinor (counter charger i don't think he makes the cut in most lists but he's an interesting option)
Less competative but viable options to fill out your list in my preference order
Land speeder storms
Attack bikes
Eradicators
0-1 death company
CPT jump pack Thunder Hammer combi melta
Plasma intercessors
Tarrantula
More troops
Hellblasters - assault plasma
Sanguinary priest/corbulo
Outriders
DC Dread/Furioso from reserves
U02dah4 wrote: Your list feels like it would be better as a non blood angel list you have ignored the melee options and special units that make BA lists unique and BA offers little to the units you have picked that other chapters can't do better.
Well i probably should have explained myself better, to get an idea of the tactics and strategy. But yeah my self imposed restriction is only primaris (i want to like the models, but thats a subjective thing), and yeah my mentality is i was playing when blood angels were a paint scheme and death company. I've always viewed them more as wannabe ultramarines who keep screwing up because they become mental over time. They're basically vanilla with enhanced cc abilities should it come to that. Part of that came from when i bought into dark millenium as well, where everything was shooty. I have indomintus but not assembled or painted yet. But i'm also one to try to take TAC lists, and this one is formed into two groups: defense and offense. Half the army can start anywhere, and the other half defends the backfield/advances on contested objectives (the aggressors).
U02dah4 wrote: If it were me I would not consider any of those units in a BA list except the intercessors and even then I would probably go for assault intercessors
I wanted to start with a 'tame' list and hopefully find a similar community, but i can cheese it up if needed after my first few games. But like back in 4th/5th i was always complaining about heroes like captain slamguinius, that's just not right its just one dude. I can do it, i just don't want to. Do you really think its that bad, that i may as well just go cheaper cc troops and contest the midfield in a grind?
U02dah4 wrote: Combat bolters are weak compared to plasma on interceptors
Aggressers are weak since 9th codex
Reivers are terrible
The only librarian worth taking is the dreadnought and I'm not sure that makes the cut
And the gravis captain is outmatched by its old school equivalents
Well, i'm working on a 1,500 point list (my ideal playsize) that is very different, but i thought some of these units could work. Plus it makes my list fluffy in case someone has a worse codex or something, i don't mind losing a few games. But, i don't think aggressors are weak, just not as good as they were before. Outriders can get there quicker, but they don't have powerfists and autohit flamers. Autohit could be very useful against something like harlequins or demons, who don't suffer ap anyways. Reivers are a challenge to me, since i heard martel say they were decent. Its going to be very situational, but look at their movement shennanigans and ability to deepstrike. I would try to run them within <3 and just sit there while everyone else shoots that unit, and then hello -2 leadership. But yeah, at 1,500 they won't be in the list. As for the gravis captain, well i've got him painted but what i really want is the heavy gravis captain, who isn't for sale yet it seems.
If I were looking at units this would be your core
HQ 2-3
Terminator CPT Thunder hammer combi-melta (your buffer to Land with your deepstrikerz)
LIBRARIAN dreadnought/lemartes (Your T1 CC missile)
Astorath/primaris chaplain on bike. (Half buff/half beatstick)
Sanguinor (counter charger i don't think he makes the cut in most lists but he's an interesting option)
Less competative but viable options to fill out your list in my preference order
Land speeder storms
Attack bikes
Eradicators
0-1 death company
CPT jump pack Thunder Hammer combi melta
Plasma intercessors
Tarrantula
More troops
Hellblasters - assault plasma
Sanguinary priest/corbulo
Outriders
DC Dread/Furioso from reserves
Yeah, well as said before, i'm looking at pure primaris. If it helps, i'll post a list of what i've got to work with atm:
Spoiler:
1x dark millenium marines
2x reiver boxes (half finished, i'm going for a 10/splitable reiver squad, 5 guys went towards d/c (and their masks), the other five to make more eliminators
1x intercessor box (5x going towards a mixable reiver/intercessor squad of 10 death company with thunder hammer), and 5 going towards making random heroes/leftys/captains/etc
1x indomitus box
3x eliminators with las fusils
6x flamestorm aggressors
1x phobos librarian
1x mephiston
1x apothecary
The thing is, my list has no transport (and doesn't look like it will, the transport options for primaris are kinda bad imo), but being a blood angel i get +1 to advance and charge.
If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.
I've always viewed them more as wannabe ultramarines who keep screwing up because they become mental over time. They're basically vanilla with enhanced cc abilities should it come to that.
U02dah4 wrote:If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.
No offense, but you said it in your own reply. This isn't the strategy and list building forum, this is the tactics forum. Its not what you've got, its how do you best use it? Otherwise i may as well just chase the dragon and net-list. Up for a conversation on how to use what i've got beyond: buy something else? ?
SirGunslinger wrote:
I've always viewed them more as wannabe ultramarines who keep screwing up because they become mental over time. They're basically vanilla with enhanced cc abilities should it come to that.
Didn't know Matt Ward was on Dakka
Cute, i'm aware of the meme. You know what's really sad? This is the most activity i've seen in the ba tactics thread for months. But laugh at me all you want, i've got broad shoulders.
U02dah4 wrote:Lol
Good post there.
I honestly miss martel at this point, this is what the ba community has left on dakka? Very sad.
U02dah4 wrote:If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.
No offense, but you said it in your own reply. This isn't the strategy and list building forum, this is the tactics forum. Its not what you've got, its how do you best use it? Otherwise i may as well just chase the dragon and net-list. Up for a conversation on how to use what i've got beyond: buy something else? ?
That's not really how 40k works, TBH. Quite a lot of the game is about your list. If you start with a really bad list you're going to struggle to make up for that disadvantage through tactics. Looking at what you've got I'm struggling to see how it's really a BA army at all. For example, Incursors are better than Infiltrators for BA despite performing almost the same role in the battlefield thanks to their superior close combat abilities. The same is true of Reivers, who just don't really have a role in most SM armies.
I think your army suffers from a lack of focus. You've got a small amount of a lot of things but none of it really provides a coherent threat. You've got decent fire support from the Inceptors and Intercessors, but not really that much. You have mediocre close combat with the Infiltrators and Reivers but lack any real punch for dealing with heavier targets. The captain is too slow to keep up with the forward-deploying assault units and the Aggressors are too slow in general. I think you'll likely find your army gets picked off piecemeal because you don't really have enough of any one type of threat to force opponents into difficult targeting decisions.
Sadly, from a tactical perspective, that means the best advice here is to change the army list fairly significantly. Adding some Assault Intercessors, for example, would give more close combat threats. Changing the Inceptor's weapons to plasma would give you some moderate anti-tank (something you completely lack at the moment). Changing the captain to something a bit more mobile would be better than taking a slow, poorly equipped and expensive character.
U02dah4 wrote:If you limit yourself to only primaris further limit yourself to largely singleton and consider aggressors good the tactical answer is don't so im not sure what your looking for from a tactics thread - strategy and list building is clearly not important to you so just throw the models you like the look of on the table in any combination and throw some dice- feedback will not help someone who doesn't want basic advice and who accuses the person trying to help them of cheese for offering what is basic advice.
No offense, but you said it in your own reply. This isn't the strategy and list building forum, this is the tactics forum. Its not what you've got, its how do you best use it? Otherwise i may as well just chase the dragon and net-list. Up for a conversation on how to use what i've got beyond: buy something else? ?
That's not really how 40k works, TBH. Quite a lot of the game is about your list. If you start with a really bad list you're going to struggle to make up for that disadvantage through tactics. Looking at what you've got I'm struggling to see how it's really a BA army at all. For example, Incursors are better than Infiltrators for BA despite performing almost the same role in the battlefield thanks to their superior close combat abilities. The same is true of Reivers, who just don't really have a role in most SM armies.
I think your army suffers from a lack of focus. You've got a small amount of a lot of things but none of it really provides a coherent threat. You've got decent fire support from the Inceptors and Intercessors, but not really that much. You have mediocre close combat with the Infiltrators and Reivers but lack any real punch for dealing with heavier targets. The captain is too slow to keep up with the forward-deploying assault units and the Aggressors are too slow in general. I think you'll likely find your army gets picked off piecemeal because you don't really have enough of any one type of threat to force opponents into difficult targeting decisions.
Sadly, from a tactical perspective, that means the best advice here is to change the army list fairly significantly. Adding some Assault Intercessors, for example, would give more close combat threats. Changing the Inceptor's weapons to plasma would give you some moderate anti-tank (something you completely lack at the moment). Changing the captain to something a bit more mobile would be better than taking a slow, poorly equipped and expensive character.
Brother, i have been playing 40k since first edition. Yes, i know list is important, but so is playgroup. Here's where i'm coming from: I can build up to cheese, and i did actually post the other minis i have available to play with. The thing is, i remember this back in 3rd: oh blood angels are cc, you have to rhino rush only. Chase the dragon. BA are a melee force only, and to be fair since 5th they did reinforce that with sang guard. But i played 5th, and they made marine tank company a ba thing and nerfed by points death company with jet packs. I almost thought about buying a tank army, but then realized sure enough its a fad.
But i do like the advice you did do. I posted what i have to play with, and can assemble/paint new models from that as needed. What makes me sad, is this all just seems to be: chase the netlist. Chase the dragon. I've played in mos eisely, and if i can find a group down here (which is seeming hard, checked facebook,, google, etc) that's step 1. But cheese is easy, just follow the netlist. What i was looking at with my list, it clocks in exactly at 1k points. With no heavy weapons.
I've looked at the meta, instead of aggressors i should be running outriders. I'm still sellable on the assault intercessors instead of normal, but that just makes me sad because it basically means: invest totally in cc and throw everything forwards into melee constantly. I was kinda hoping there'd be more to it.
How do you guys plan to tackle Death Guard in a TAC list?
Shooting outside of Gravis units (Inceptor, Eradicator) seems not very point efficient. Either lacking in number of shots or not doing more than 2 damage.
Melee wise I'm flirting with Cybots. Death Company Cybots, to be precise.
but cutting, sliceing, bashing, smashing and crushing in melee will all do in a pintch.
It's the same thing we do about every army.
I'm not sure there's much of a need to change as a result of DG only a couple of people play the faction and we shouldn't be investing in much shooting anyway thats for other marines
I still favour a combination of SG vanguard and lightning claw terminators
With the double nerf to DC in the FAQ (forlorn+visions) the only DC unit i will take is lemartes as an anti infiltrator missile
I don't see any way for BA to beat Death Guard right now, even if they tool for it. I played a game last weekend with a very solid BA list against an unoptimized Death Guard list played by a worse player, albeit coached by a good player, and still lost by a solid 15, and got almost tabled, despite being generally agreed to have played well. My kill tally? 3 plague drones and a squad of Marines.
A melee army, especially one that depends on D2 like Blood Angels just cannot function against Death Guard 2.0, criminally undercosted as they are at the moment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe soup in a squad of Kastellans?
If that is all you killed i suspect a problem with your list and objectives but cannot comment without seeing it
The -1D has no impact on lightning claws so vanguard or terminators which should be a key part of your line up it also has no impact on things like assault intercessors that work out of volume of attacks
While every character should be 3D or better
If your trying to win a shootout with blood angels your building wrong we don't do tac well because our bonuses are all focused on CC
I mean i field a unit of 8 assault intercessors in CC turn 3 (coming on from reserves with reroll charges and +1 to charge) they output 8 pistol shots then 41A hitting on 2's rr1's S4+1toW ap2 with a fight twice strat and thats not one of our top CC units
I made a quick calculation to compare some BA melee units to see how many points we pay to do one wound to a Plague Marine in actual melee combat.
I don't take shooting or any buffs on either side into account, only looking at the first round of combat where +1 attack and +1 to wound triggers.
Points per wound - Unit
20,25 - Sanguinary Guard w. axe
23,63 - Bladeguard Veteran
24,00 - Death Company Intercessor w. Chainsword
26,00 - Vanguard Veteran w. lightning claw and shield
28,50 - Assault Intercessor
28,80 - Aggressor
30,00 - Death Company Marine w. Chainsword
40,11 - Death Company Dreadnought
56,25 - Outrider
Now some units bring more to the table than their melee output. Aggressor do have a respectable horde clearing capability, which we might need against Poxwalker and similar targets. Bladeguard Veterans being hard to shift from an objective and so on.
But this should give us a good idea what to expect when we send units into melee against Death Guard.
DG are certainly looking strong right now. That said, outside of SG most of my close combat weapons are either D3 or D1 so punching PM in the face should still be effective. We'll take a bit more pain in return thanks to the Contagions.
I think the real issue is with a lot of shooting now being hugely inefficient against DG. Partly this is down to players adding in lots of D2 weapons to deal with regular SM. The real question is can we get, then maintain, board control against DG and try to play the objectives. My concern is we can't because it looks like DG damage output has generally increased as well.
I played against Death Guard (no-morty) last weekend. I tailored my list by dropping my SG, plasma inceptors and adding two redemptor dreads along with 5man eradicators unit.
Quick takes:
Van vets with lightning claw & storm shields mulch through both plague marines and blightlord termies with the volume of attacks.
My death company had 5 thunder hammers and did still great, although the -1T aura made them vanish fast.
In melee trades, LC's and 3dmg weapons trade well, but so can DG counter them the following turn. It was brutal.
Redemptors are great, I ran two with plasma, for 3dmg, but I think I'll try out gatlin variants for the volume of shots.
All and all, I need to include some elements from this tailoring, but have to add my SG back for more all comers list.
Tried also the primaris smash chaplain on bike because of the fore mentioned 3dmg (4dmg with buffs) and it also wrecks stuff. Had to drop my rites of war/visage of death JP captain for it, but the single game was all trading on objectives.
Side track here.. I really liked the changed 5th turn scoring..
a_typical_hero wrote: I made a quick calculation to compare some BA melee units to see how many points we pay to do one wound to a Plague Marine in actual melee combat.
I don't take shooting or any buffs on either side into account, only looking at the first round of combat where +1 attack and +1 to wound triggers.
Points per wound - Unit
20,25 - Sanguinary Guard w. axe
23,63 - Bladeguard Veteran
24,00 - Death Company Intercessor w. Chainsword
26,00 - Vanguard Veteran w. lightning claw and shield
28,50 - Assault Intercessor
28,80 - Aggressor
30,00 - Death Company Marine w. Chainsword
40,11 - Death Company Dreadnought
56,25 - Outrider
Now some units bring more to the table than their melee output. Aggressor do have a respectable horde clearing capability, which we might need against Poxwalker and similar targets. Bladeguard Veterans being hard to shift from an objective and so on.
But this should give us a good idea what to expect when we send units into melee against Death Guard.
Your exercise is fundamentally wrong because buffs make units work ignoring them massively underrepresents what that unit can do and gives you no idea what to expect against death guard other than an auto loss because the person running the army was a fool.
If I factor in reasonable buffs (I assume I'm in a 9" reroll bubble of my deepstrikeing captain that I am receiving +1 to hit (quake bolts, fury of the first, descent of angels, heirs of azkellon) as appropriate) im in assault doctrine (I won't be fighting T1 and t3 onwards its active) and fight twice on the assault intercessors
You take an assault intercessor as 28.5 pts per wound
I take it as 5.86 pts per Wound factoring in the buffs i expect it to have (4.9 pts per wound for the sgt) as an example
Compared to your 26 pt vanguard vet My vanguard vet with lC 9.5pts per wound (6.5pts per wound on the sgt (the big difference is my sgt doesnt have a stormshield it has a pistol for quake bolts)
Assault terminator lC 8.98 pts per wound 7.7 for the SGT
Compared to your 20.25 sanguinary guard my sanguinary guard do 8.74 pts per wound
Now of course I recognise these buffs may not always be online but they will be the majority of the time and is a much closer reflection of real game effectiveness.
All your math shows is your an idiot to fight without buffs. Any sane person is going to have a much easier time of it.
you also underestimate performance of assault intercessors by 5or6 times while only underestimating sang guard by about half this is going to cause poor unit selection.
You respond like I made some claim that this is the be all end all list of what units to take against Death Guard. Chill.
Obviously your units won't fight without any kind of buffs. Factoring in all possible combinations of positive and negative character auras, stratagems, prayers, psychic casts gets excessive really fast, though.
Feel free to provide such an overview if you like to
The list shows the base performance of a single model of a unit. If there exists a buff that boosts the performance of a unit by 100% (like the fight twice stratagem for Assault Intercessors), then you can easily derive how the unit would compare to the rest. Applying the same buff to Outriders (if you could) would still leave them behind other choices, indicating that the unit might not be worth it for the offensive potential alone.
No im pointing out that assessing units in that way doesnt give you even close to a an accurate comparison of their performance on the tabletop. To the extent that your conclusions are both meaningless and misleading. When some of those perform 5 or 6 times better and some such as aggressors or the dc dread perform not much different you don't at all get an assessment of performance against DG.
No you don't factor in all combinations of buffs that would create an unreadable answer. their are plenty of buffs in 40k that you look at and are not worth the CP or attached to characters you won't take. You only factor in the ones you would reasonably use.
Rr1s to hit is ubiquitous in 99% of lists (though where it comes from can vary. Assault doctrine is free and occurs in 75% of the turns you actually charge in. + as demonstrated with the 4 different ways of getting +1 to hit thats common aswell. Plus some units have a key buffing strat your going to use and fight twice is a good example of that so you factor these in.
Actual order / your order / rankdiff
outrider is 32.14 outrider 56.25 +-
Dc chainsword 17.86 dc dread 40.11 -4
aggressor 16.32 dc chainsword 30 +1
Dc intercessor 15.43 aggressor 28.8 +1
Bladeguard 13.51 assault intercessor 28.5 -4
Dc dread 12.8 vanguard vet 26 -2
Sang guard 8.74 dc intercessor 24 +3
vanguard vet 6.5 bladeguard 23.36 +3
assault intercessor 5.86 sang guard 20.25 +2
Now by your scale the only unit you get in the right place is the outrider
But performance scale is hugely different ignoring the outrider as an outlier
Your worst performer is half that of your best when it should be a third
(I note I didn't factor in sgt so units with sgt will be slightly better
If you can apply the same buff to several units, it won't change how they perform compared to each other. (With some exceptions, like adding AP when already forcing the target to use an invul save).
Rerolling 1s and Assault Doctrine will have the same effect on all units. So why factor them in?
You can make a case for unit specific stratagems, but they are one per round, so are subject to diminishing returns (and we might want to factor them in as 20p per CP spent into their actual cost). Your first Assault Intercessor squad that fights twice will have a great points per wound value. Every additional squad after that in the same round will struggle to come close. How is that for an accurate comparison on the tabletop? Is your calculated number true now?
Your list lacks an explanation what kind of buffs you are using. One could say it is meaningless and misleading. Or are you suggesting to spam 60 Assault Intercessors to tackle Death Guard?
The assault doctrine doesnt effect all units equally it has more of an impact the lower the AP of a weapon while an extra +1 attack makes more of a difference on a low cost model than it does on a high cost model they also have an inverse relationship to the number of attacks (a model with 3 attacks gaining one is 25% more effective 4 attacks gaining one 20% 5 attacks 16%.....)
Not all units benefit from +1 to hit bladeguard veterans, dc dreads outriders aggressors and dc intercessors do not benefit in a realistic list
Rerolling 1's improves performance by a 6th but a 6th boost on an efficient unit is not the same as a 6th increase on a less efficient unit. It is multiplicative so a unit that hits on a 3+ increases from 0.6666 to 0.7777 a 0.11% increase while a unit hits on a 2+ goes from 0.84 to 0.97 a 0.13% increase
Absolutely you only use a strat once but thats why most competent lists have a variety of units not just spam a single type. My own use sg assault terminators vanguard and assault intercessors without overlapping strats. So yes its pretty accurate with the exception of sg I run one of each and thats because sg don't need a strat to get +1 to hit look at your own numbers and ask is spamming them more effective than takeing different units with buffs.
I provided an exact list rr1s to hit, assault doctrine, +1 to hit on any unit with a jump pack or terminator armour, fight twice on assault intercessors
So in an effort to collect more unpainted minis, after reading Dante, I want to start collecting/painting a new BA Army. Should I just focus on Intercessors first? Shooty or slashy versions to start? Also, is there a good way to get a crash course on how to play Marines in 9th? I come from Custodes and AM, so let's pretend I don't know what a Super doctrine or a doctrine at all for that matter. I know that there are Vampire Space Marines who have a very old guy as their leader, and they look like a fun army to paint. AND GO.
Allow me to rephrase: I understand doctrines, but not how to plan around using them effectively. I usually just move up the board and hit stuff and they get taken off the board.
I'm copying and pasting what I wrote for someone else earlier
HQ 2-3
Terminator CPT Thunder hammer combi-melta (your buffer to Land with your deepstrikerz)
LIBRARIAN dreadnought/lemartes (Your T1 CC missile)
Astorath/primaris chaplain on bike. (Half buff/half beatstick)
Sanguinor (counter charger i don't think he makes the cut in most lists but he's an interesting option)
Less competative but viable options to fill out your list in my preference order
Land speeder storms
Attack bikes
Eradicators
0-1 death company
CPT jump pack Thunder Hammer combi melta
Plasma intercessors
Tarrantula
More troops
Hellblasters - assault plasma
Sanguinary priest/corbulo
Outriders
DC Dread/Furioso from reserves
Blood angels are the close combat marines we therefore want 50-75% of are models to be close combat units with the remainder being used to hold objectives/ supporting fire.
There's nothing wrong with intercessors but they will always be better in a different chapter. I would personally favour assault intercessors but incursors or infiltrators also have their uses (more objective control than shooting)
Doctrines is easy turn 3 becomes assault when our close combat goes nuts and thats when you have to drop your reserves therefore dropping reserves on turn 3 with rerolling charges is how you make the most of it.
What's the best way to approach a jump pack assault?
Is it worth going for the deepstrike charge? Without Descent of Angels giving you a reliable 3d6" charge it's a risky endeavour.
How do you include characters in this? Presumably a Captain or Chaplain with the Icon of the Angel relic giving rerolls would be the way to go, which gives approximately a 70% of a successful charge assuming you're using Blood Angels (my Flesh Tearers only have a ~50% chance if I use their proper trait).
But if you do use the character, how do you protect them? The chances of both the character and the unit succeeding a charge is only 45%, and with the new 3" 'Look Out Sir' it's going to be almost impossible to continue protecting a character if the unit succeeds and the character fails.
However, 40k now practically revolves around character buffs and you'll be losing a lot if you go without.
This point about characters in particular makes we wonder if such deepstrike charges are even viable anymore? Would it not be better to hide in a building for a turn? But then of course you run the high risk of being annihilated or avoided as a result.
Of course the obvious solution that presents itself is just run Inceptors with Descent of Angels instead, but I'm not running Primaris.
My answer is icon of the angel and I forget what is called but the chapter champion warlord trait (because you want to be able to effect more of the board) are essential now in a ba list you have +1 to charge but in an ft list I would always be using a primaris chaplain on bike for the +2. Its less essential in BA but I've still decided its worth it. Although their are other ways such as lemartes or imprriums sword.
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Well the answer in my case is you drop 1000ish points of DS at multiple parts of the board - the enemy can only overwatch once yes some units won't make it but a large portion will . Yes a single unit will fail 1 in 3 games but I'm probably dropping 7-10ish and the ones that succeed should devastate what they hit and hopefully push into something else. I will also be supported by creeping jumppackers not in DS. The DS that don't make it are vulnerable but most oppoents won't kill 1000pts in a turn not after being smashed and what ever is left is going to be able to move 1w and charge the following turn
As to protecting character why t3 my terminator cpt with icon drops he can probably buff himself and 2 -3 units going for 1 objective
The chapter champion does the same thing on the flank
Lemartes is a missile and probably died T1 (move 12 move 12 charge 8 score mission by being only model in their DS die in op turn
Which leaves the only character I want to protect the chaplain/astorath and in that case I'm going to terrain hug
The single biggest threat to the ds charge is infiltrators and thats where lemartes/heavy bolters come in (Land speeder storm/attackbikes)
My answer is icon of the angel and I forget what is called but the chapter champion warlord trait (because you want to be able to effect more of the board) are essential now in a ba list you have +1 to charge but in an ft list I would always be using a primaris chaplain on bike for the +2. Its less essential in BA but I've still decided its worth it. Although their are other ways such as lemartes or imprriums sword.
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Well the answer in my case is you drop 1000ish points of DS at multiple parts of the board - the enemy can only overwatch once yes some units won't make it but a large portion will . Yes a single unit will fail 1 in 3 games but I'm probably dropping 7-10ish and the ones that succeed should devastate what they hit and hopefully push into something else. I will also be supported by creeping jumppackers not in DS. The DS that don't make it are vulnerable but most oppoents won't kill 1000pts in a turn not after being smashed and what ever is left is going to be able to move 1w and charge the following turn
As to protecting character why t3 my terminator cpt with icon drops he can probably buff himself and 2 -3 units going for 1 objective
The chapter champion does the same thing on the flank
Lemartes is a missile and probably died T1 (move 12 move 12 charge 8 score mission by being only model in their DS die in op turn
Which leaves the only character I want to protect the chaplain/astorath and in that case I'm going to terrain hug
The single biggest threat to the ds charge is infiltrators and thats where lemartes/heavy bolters come in (Land speeder storm/attackbikes)
7 to 10 deepstrike units (being 1000points)
That are a lot of small units. What units are they and with what loadout?
Those are unbuffed units then?
I dont think i have much mor then 10 units in a 2000 point game.
I do play most units maxed or nearly maxed.
Ok edit: just seen your list. MSU it is.
But isnt 4 land speeders illegal (max 3 of the same units)
It isnt how i would build my list but i see potential. Altough in my gaming group a lot wouldnt survive turn 2 and thus being it hard to keep objectives
The list is in the quoted link i keep tinkering with it slightly but my current iteration
The units in DS
the terminator cpt master crafted thunder hammer combi melta icon of the angel artisan of war heroic bearing
7 Assault terminators lightning claw
7 Vanguard lightning claw stormshield 1boltpistol with quake bolts
4 sang guard with axes
Reserve
Chapter champion blade of triumph martial exemplar
1 8x assault intercessors
1 5x assault intercessors
Terrain hugging melee units
6 sanguinary guard +5 Sanguinary guard +astorath(replacing the librarian dread) - these also serve as counter chargers if the enemy come into the middle
They are land speeder storms they are a dedicated transport choice (although given they can only transport scouts you don't use them as transports) and so you may take one for each infantry unit in your army and like troops dedicated transports are exempted from the limitations of 3 datasheets
Most of the buffs are in relation to charges (icon of the angel, martial Exemplar) i can probably get 4 units hitting on 2's and the bigger assault intercessors fighting twice in atleast the first round of charging with the cpt having a 9"rr bubble. Astorath will likely be providing the cantical of hate and strength to boost his melee provide +1 to charge (on top of what we get base) and boost pile ins/consolidation
Yes I agree the first two turns are likely terrain dependent and if you can't hide much will die but I can still scoop some vp
Namely relentless assault should score t1 and t2 with lemartes hitting their dz t1 and hopefully clearing a screen unit preferably infiltrators If possible a land speeder storm sacrificing itsself t2 the rest of my army is going to make its way to the centre of the board and objective hold against many opponent's it won't win a shootout its trying to score and clear some screening models especially infiltrators and if possible hide in an ideal world other than lemartes who dies i try and keep everything or as much as possible out of los. Then t3 the reserves smash face but this is a rough plan and against certain armies (more assault based i can commit to melee on t2.
Oaths is easy to score as most of my units won't want to fallback and its end of turn scoreing for having 1 model in the centre (which then dies)
As to blade of sanguinous it might only score 10 but most games your going to be able to stab a character to death if you set your mind to it but i can ignore it till t3
If starting a new army, should I go for all Terminators, and build out from there, or go Assault Intercessors? Sanguinary guard? Are the axes better or the swords on S. Guard?
I wouldn't go all one thing a mix of the three units will perform better than just one because of the way stratagems work.
E.g. their is a stratagem that gives one unit of terminators +1 to hit but you can only use it on one unit per turn so your second unit of terminators is weaker. I personally would go with assault terminators with lightning claws over other variants
As to the axes sword question the simple answer is axes are generally better.
The detailed answer is it depends exactly what your trying to kill axes get a boost vs toughness 5 or 6 units swords get a boost against 3+svs or better but only if they don't have an invul save. Then you have to factor in ceiling effects where lots of the units that swords are better at such as 5 man intercessors are probably killed by both swords and axes where as the difference actual counts when your hitting 5 man custodes
Finally if you are new and building on a budget you should consider the sanguinary guard box is an old school box with 3 swords and 2 axes meaning you need to convert or buy excess boxes if you want to tailor your weapons
I guess I am way too used to Custodes, where one box can be my HQ, my Troops, or my Fast attack, or my elites. It's not so easy to build a SM army because there are over 100 different units.
If there was one single unit that I could buy to learn painting blood angels, I would think it's a box of intercessors, assault or otherwise. Is that fair? I am trigger shy because of the book cost just to play the damn faction. I have the core rules, but they require 3 books now to play. So I want to see if I even enjoy painting them first.
One if interesting things with blood angels compared to other sm factions is their not uniform painting a sanguinary guard mostly gold is quite different to an intercessor red or a death company black.
U02dah4 wrote: One if interesting things with blood angels compared to other sm factions is their not uniform painting a sanguinary guard mostly gold is quite different to an intercessor red or a death company black.
So I like the idea of buying them because I have everything to paint my custodes, and they are almost the exact same, save the weapons, which are not force lightning....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I guess I am way too used to Custodes, where one box can be my HQ, my Troops, or my Fast attack, or my elites. It's not so easy to build a SM army because there are over 100 different units.
If there was one single unit that I could buy to learn painting blood angels, I would think it's a box of intercessors, assault or otherwise. Is that fair? I am trigger shy because of the book cost just to play the damn faction. I have the core rules, but they require 3 books now to play. So I want to see if I even enjoy painting them first.
As far as painting goes, even a trash painter like me can make Blood Angels look good cause the contrast paints do all the work for you. Book cost doesn’t have to be a thing for a trial run, you can find all the rules online places like 1d4chan or goonhammer. If you’re going to start with a box probably assault intercessors, they will always be a good choice in a BA army. Just don’t do what Matt Ward’s reincarnation did a page or two back and ignore the fact that Blood Angels money units are elite melee options. SG hammers and Bladeguard/Terminator anvils are going to be the core of your army, and I’ve heard good things about vanvets. Can’t really go wrong with any of those.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also SG swords are better. Due to the +1 to wound, s5 to s6 isn’t a huge difference and -4 ap turns 3-5 is sweet.
Its a huge difference when it counts unlike ap4 which has very little difference due to ceiling effects and invuls
The axe will typically do better vs admech breachers, custodes, deathguard certain squadrens of light vehicles such as admech kastellan, gravis armour, t3 with a -1 to wound
They perform identically vs power armour (overkilling makes no difference (so for 5sg asssuming reroll 1,s and charge you can reasonably kill 16 with a sword or 13.5 with an axe), any space marine with an invul, hordes
The sword will do better vs baneblade type vehicles (3+/2+ T7/8 18w+ no invul)
That's actually a good point about gravis armor, I haven't run into it all that much. Custodes aren't really an issue for Guard due to volume of attacks, although I guess that argument could go the other way too. Against hordes that ap makes more of a difference than you'd think, denying saves is actually kind of a big deal. Bloat drones and blight haulers are T7, which kind of comes back to the idea that the things these guys are attacking are usually not T5 or T6, which is where the axes give the bonus. Unless you're playing death guard, which hard counter BA, but if they end up being big enough of a meta then it's probably worth switching.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess the answer is magnetize your Guard.
Except it isn't against hordes because most hordes have a sv if 4+ or less or a 5++ so they both deny/do not deny the save you see no real bonus with the sword
again most t7/8 vehicles excepting DG with their -1D dont have the wounds so either kill them
E.g. A russ takes 24D from the sword and 20 from the axe but dies at 12.
With regards to the bloat drone and blight hawler because of the t7 and their invul both weapons perform identically and it dies to both while the plagueburst crawler is again identical performance but neither squad kills it
As to custodes swords kill 4 axes kill 5 (that's a noticeable difference)
Actually, just getting down to the simplest level, anti-wound invulns don't exist, so I guess you're probably getting more value out of wound bonuses than out of ap bonuses. I stand convinced.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I notice your list only has 4 sanguinary, I get so much value out of these guys it seems like you'd want more. Do you get more value out of vanvets?
Edit: I can't read. 11 Sanguinary. A lot of the lists I see build their army around them though, I run 15-20 and they win games for me if treated well
But partially its about overkill I use mine to make a charge kill a unit if i have more smaller units means I can blitz more targets and 5 sang+-1 kill most targets. My current iteration has a 4 a 5 and a 6
In addition more smaller units helps with the risks of ds charging in a big blob of sg drops and if it fails the charge its very costly smaller units less so but some Will fail its just odds
As to van vets it depends on the target as general rule van vets outperform vs single wound targets especially with quake bolts while reroll wounds + the plus one to wound make them surprisingly effective against high t targets they are also much more resistant to high ap which is really important in some board situations where your sg will get vapourised
Yeah, SG need proper handling. I usually start with 2 5s in deepstrike with a chaplain for a total of +3 to charges, and one or two 5s hiding on the table in case I get deepstrike denied hard, and also as a qrf. They really need to hide until it's hammer time or they get vaporized. I'm lucky enough to mostly play on tables with enough terrain to hide them. Seems to me Sanguinary can always be relied on to punch two or three times above their weight class though, so learning to run them is worth it. I've had 10 sanguinary delete 1000 points of Necrons without taking a casualty.
I usually run assault intercessors for skirmishers but I'm going to look into vanvets.
I wouldn't run a lot of van vets but I have found 1 squad very useful the one type of unit they are not awesome against is a big blob of 2w marines which given the current meta is a weakness
That’s decently Killy, but a chapter champion would do the job better for less points, it’s kind of his whole thing.
Blood Angels Commander has a really good breakdown on ways you can build him here.
I would always take one in my lists he excellent and he would be good for it if he could take a jump pack but even with reserves he's just not maneuverable enough. If he doesn't get to the model he doesnt get the kill and the opponents counter is to just keep the model central if you reserve it and the further corner if you dont
I'm not sure it's so bad but I probably need more practice. It seems like an easy 10 that I can take in my 3rd slot if there isn't a suitable kill mission.
SirGunslinger wrote: Yeah, SG need proper handling. I usually start with 2 5s in deepstrike with a chaplain for a total of +3 to charges, and one or two 5s hiding on the table in case I get deepstrike denied hard, and also as a qrf. They really need to hide until it's hammer time or they get vaporized. I'm lucky enough to mostly play on tables with enough terrain to hide them. Seems to me Sanguinary can always be relied on to punch two or three times above their weight class though, so learning to run them is worth it. I've had 10 sanguinary delete 1000 points of Necrons without taking a casualty.
I usually run assault intercessors for skirmishers but I'm going to look into vanvets.
Quick point of order.
The chaplain litany for +2" to charge distance doesn't stack with the +1" innate we get as Blood Angels. It specifically says in the Canticle of Hate that it does not stack with other abilities that add to the charge distance, so you don't get 3", but instead get the 2" bonus instead of the usual 1" bonus.
Also if the chaplain isn't on the board in your command phase (if he's in deep strike), you can't roll for any litanies for that chaplain. So on the turn that chaplain arrives from deep strike, they won't have any chaplain litanies active till your next command phase if you roll them successfully. Just clarifying that point also. The only way to get +2" to charge distance on the is to land within the 6" bubble of the chaplain's aura who was already on the field at the command phase and successfully rolled 3+ on his litany for canticle of hate.
Just wanted to make sure this was noted. I don't want you to be doing something incorrectly in your games on accident.
I realized the Canticle of hate doesn’t stack like 2 days after writing that. Yeah, I may have pulled off some long bomb charges I shouldn’t have.
It is still possible to get canticle of hate off by popping inspiring oratory in the charge phase, that one at least I have been getting right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I run my chaplain as a master of sanctity with the warlord trait so it is only 1CP since I use it pretty much every turn he is alive for guaranteed extra litany. Litany of Hate + Mantra of Strength + guaranteed canticle of hate makes my Sanguinary a whole lot of fun and make the chaplain very scary as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Blade is something the other guy can just say no to. Everyone has a disposable character, they just put it on him, put him in reserves for the whole game. They get to pick who accepts the challenge.
SirGunslinger wrote: I realized the Canticle of hate doesn’t stack like 2 days after writing that. Yeah, I may have pulled off some long bomb charges I shouldn’t have.
It is still possible to get canticle of hate off by popping inspiring oratory in the charge phase, that one at least I have been getting right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I run my chaplain as a master of sanctity with the warlord trait so it is only 1CP since I use it pretty much every turn he is alive for guaranteed extra litany. Litany of Hate + Mantra of Strength + guaranteed canticle of hate makes my Sanguinary a whole lot of fun and make the chaplain very scary as well.
Gotcha, right on. I had forgotten about Inspiring Oratory here myself. Good call! I haven't been able to play at all lately due to family and work stuff keeping me busy constantly. I lurk here and list build and occasionally paint when there's a few minutes free for me to do so.
I run Lemartes as my lone Chaplain, with my Captain, and/or Sanguinary Priest running along with my Sanguinary Guard for buffs. I also generally run a jump pack Librarian for buffs, typically general librarius powers, for the 5++ invuln aura and veil of time. It's worked well so far.
Appreciate it, and take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Automatically Appended Next Post: I agree also, Blade isn't very good unless you happen to be playing someone with just one character, and the odds of that happening are nil.
I experimented with the 5+ invulnerable librarian for my sanguinary and he made them a good deal more survivable, but I ended up preferring a Librarian dreadnought to smash things instead of a librarian person to buff.
SirGunslinger wrote: I realized the Canticle of hate doesn’t stack like 2 days after writing that. Yeah, I may have pulled off some long bomb charges I shouldn’t have.
It is still possible to get canticle of hate off by popping inspiring oratory in the charge phase, that one at least I have been getting right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I run my chaplain as a master of sanctity with the warlord trait so it is only 1CP since I use it pretty much every turn he is alive for guaranteed extra litany. Litany of Hate + Mantra of Strength + guaranteed canticle of hate makes my Sanguinary a whole lot of fun and make the chaplain very scary as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Blade is something the other guy can just say no to. Everyone has a disposable character, they just put it on him, put him in reserves for the whole game. They get to pick who accepts the challenge.
Umm no check the faq they can put it on a the disposable character keep it in reserve and I score 15vp. They have to board it their turn 3 which gives you 2-3 turns to kill it and we are highly mobile and given 75% of our army is melee its quite difficult to stop it scoreing 10 in all but the most defensive builds
Hi guys! I would like to start play Blood Angels in 9th Edition. I decided to play heavily melee army. I have played couple times my Drukhari army, but it was not a nice experience. Can you advise me what should i buy for the first time? I have never played any Space Marines army in the past.
Stay well away from the discount boxes they tend to give you bad units
Decide if your planning to play defensively in a midboard castle
Or offensively in a scattered msu
You will want two characters as a starter a defensive list probably wants a bike captain with thunderhammer and storm shield and a sanguinary priest
An offensive list will probably go for a terminator or jump pack captain with thunderhammer but may exchange the storm shield for combi melta and probably a bike chaplain or astorath
Next you'll want 3 troops the defensive lot will want to mix infiltrators and incursors the offensive intercessors and assault intercessors but you cant really go wrong which ever primaris you put in the troop slot
A defensive army probably wants some eliminators plasma inceptor or hellblasters along with one or 2 redemptors or leviathan looking at about 25% of your army. For offensive I would be considering land speeder storms or a whirlwind for their utility strats with less firepower and a company champion
For the core of your army your looking at sanguinary guard vanguard veterans with storm shield and lightning claw and assault terminators
You can take extra characters but I wouldn't go above 4
U02dah4 wrote: Stay well away from the discount boxes they tend to give you bad units
Decide if your planning to play defensively in a midboard castle
Or offensively in a scattered msu
You will want two characters as a starter a defensive list probably wants a bike captain with thunderhammer and storm shield and a sanguinary priest
An offensive list will probably go for a terminator or jump pack captain with thunderhammer but may exchange the storm shield for combi melta and probably a bike chaplain or astorath
Next you'll want 3 troops the defensive lot will want to mix infiltrators and incursors the offensive intercessors and assault intercessors but you cant really go wrong which ever primaris you put in the troop slot
A defensive army probably wants some eliminators plasma inceptor or hellblasters along with one or 2 redemptors or leviathan looking at about 25% of your army. For offensive I would be considering land speeder storms or a whirlwind for their utility strats with less firepower and a company champion
For the core of your army your looking at sanguinary guard vanguard veterans with storm shield and lightning claw and assault terminators
You can take extra characters but I wouldn't go above 4
I'll mention this in passing because I just recently stumbled upon it while list-building.
I have hit upon a 'utility' captain build that I really like. It's different, and can be tweaked a few different directions to suit personal taste. I'll be building out a model for it later on but on paper here's the build.
Blood Angels Captain with a Jump Pack Wargear: Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Bolt Pistol. I run the Visage of Death relic mask to give him -1 to hit in melee to aid survivability and it also turns off the enemy objective secured within 3". (Which is just fun IMO). He's ST:7 with his sword, AP:-3, 2 damage, with a 2+/4++ save with -1 to hit in melee.
Now we get to the interesting part. I opt to use the WL trait Artisan of war, and Master-Craft the relic blade, giving it D:3, just like a thunder hammer but with AP:3 and no -1 to hit. I then use the stratagem to give my Captain a second WL trait, choosing The Emperor's Sword from the core marine book, giving him +1 ST (Relic blade is now ST:8) & a bonus attack on the charge, along with re-roll charge rolls. This build hits really hard, and has decent staying power in close combat. He swings six time on the charge, or seven times with Savage Echos active in the assault doctrine, at WS:2+, ST:8, AP:-3 and 3 Damage per attack with the ubiquitous +1 to wound we enjoy, meaning you're wounding most everything on a 2+. That's 18 potential damage, or 21 potential damage if you're in Assault Doctrine.
There are a few different options to choose from on this, depending on your preferences. You can go for a little less raw damage output and not master-craft the relic blade and instead give him adamantine mantle with artisan of war to net a 5+++ feel no pain for added staying power.
Or you can omit the storm shield for a ranged weapon and use artisan of war to give him artificer armor which will still give you a 2+ armor save and a 4++ from the Iron Halo. This is the least 'good' option for me, because you lose out on the D:3 relic blade to gain a pistol or combi-weapon, which you may only get to fire once or twice in a game.
Just some musings from me. Hopefully folks find them interesting, at least.
There's nothing wrong with that build but you might get more out of the THSS terminator cpt. You get an extra point of armour cheaper cost the +1 to hit from the terminator strat negating the the -1 to hit this lets you now trade 1AP fir a 4th dam although personally I would swap artisan for gift of foresight as its both a defensive and offensive buff.
Sure you lose out on movement but for the utility build your often dropping at the front line so movement is less important
I thought I shared my current 5-0 list with you. There is room for improvement and I hope you'll point em out to me, but my gaming group insisted I'd share this over here..
Spoiler:
Batallion
primaris chaplain on bike - imperium's sword - benediction of fury - mantra of strength
sanguinary priest - warlord - selfless healer - master artisan - artificer armour - teeth of terra
librarian with jump pack - chief librarian - tome of malcador - veil of time - psychic fortress - nuln zone - unleash rage - rites of war
I love it when a winning list is also fluffy. Like yes, sanguinary priest, death company, sanguinary guard, jump packs (even inceptors count here), assault intercessors, this is why you play Blood Angels.
Captain in Terminator Armour [120pts]: Combi-melta, Icon of The Angel, Thunder hammer
Primaris Chaplain on Bike [140pts]: Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Imperium's Sword, Benediction of Fury
Bladeguard Veteran Squad [180pts] 5 man, Neo-volkite pistol
Company Champion [70pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Champion, The Shield Eternal, Martial Exemplar
Death Company Marines [150pts]: 5 man, Jump Packs, one with THammer, one with Power Axe and Inferno Pistol
Sanguinary Guard [215pts] 7 man, Axes, one Inferno pistol
Vanguard Veteran Squad [198pts]: 7 man, Jump Packs, 5 LC/SS, 1 Twin LC, Sgt Relic Blade/Bolt Pistol, Quake Bolts
Inceptor Squad [220pts]:4 man, Plasma
Whirlwind Scorpius [170pts]
Total: [1,998pts]
Strategy:
Incursors start on Objective upfield somehwere
Bladeguard, Company Champ, Sang Priest move up midfield
Whirlwind hides in the back on objective
Attempted first turn charges from DC, Libby Dread, Invictor
Captain comes in with Inceptors for rerolls
Chappy on bike is mobile buffer and beatstick. Supporting the JP infantry.
I wouldn't use the skorpius it can't use the stratagem that makes whirlwinds broken
Drop a character you don't want 5 it offers max assassinate
and by dropping an hq it allows you to move the remaining patrol units into your vanguard if you add two troops you now have a battalion this saves you 3cp
As to relic/ warlord traits
Currently your Sanguinary priest doesn't have a warlord trait despite being a warlord meanwhile you have relics on 4 models which isn't possible at most you can have relics on 3 wl on 3 with a double wl on your warlord
Its a little arbitrary which character to get rid of but if it were me I would ditch the sanguinary priest make the terminator captain your warlord and give it gift of foresight and then maybe artisan of war as a second warlord trait to master craft the thunder hammer to make him a beat stick
I'd remove the random single inferno pistols
Deleting the sanguinary priest and swapping skorpius for Whirlwind and random single infernos saved you 160 prs and 190 -200 adds two units of assault intercessors or intercessors so maybe 1 sanguinary guard model goes or 1 blade guard.
I'm also not a fan of the Invictor its just outclassed by the redemptor its fun but its not reliable
Doing what U02Dah4 said (though I would drop chaplain until they nerf Chief Apothecary because BGV+Apo=gold) would also let you combined into a single Battalion, giving you the extra CP for your Whirlwind and other stuff.
U02dah4 wrote: I wouldn't use the skorpius it can't use the stratagem that makes whirlwinds broken
Drop a character you don't want 5 it offers max assassinate
and by dropping an hq it allows you to move the remaining patrol units into your vanguard if you add two troops you now have a battalion this saves you 3cp
As to relic/ warlord traits
Currently your Sanguinary priest doesn't have a warlord trait despite being a warlord meanwhile you have relics on 4 models which isn't possible at most you can have relics on 3 wl on 3 with a double wl on your warlord
Its a little arbitrary which character to get rid of but if it were me I would ditch the sanguinary priest make the terminator captain your warlord and give it gift of foresight and then maybe artisan of war as a second warlord trait to master craft the thunder hammer to make him a beat stick
I'd remove the random single inferno pistols
Deleting the sanguinary priest and swapping skorpius for Whirlwind and random single infernos saved you 160 prs and 190 -200 adds two units of assault intercessors or intercessors so maybe 1 sanguinary guard model goes or 1 blade guard.
I'm also not a fan of the Invictor its just outclassed by the redemptor its fun but its not reliable
Good points, I must have miscounted on the relics.
Questions:
I figured the Inferno pistols might maybe help with the lack of anti-tank. I guess they arent useful?
Better suggestion?
If i drop the Invictor, should I buff the DC to keep a decent T1 threat with the Libby Dread?
Its not that they arn't usefull its just that 1 on its own doesn't make much difference its to unreliable - 1 shot missing a 3rd of the time wounding big vehicles/monsters half the time doing an avg 3.5 dam and thats assuming your target doesn't have an invul -you want a whole squad to have them which is an expensive upgrade but gives you meaningful shooting or none and stay pts efficient.
I like the libby dread your DC is probably strong enough although all power weapons isn't a terrible idea. The thing with DC is that if your forlorning them up the table T1 your hitting a screen now that can be really useful for clearing a hole for your deeostrikers but overkill doesn't help and adding even a 6th model doubles the CP cost
For some melee based anti armour/monster maybe a smashlain? A Primaris chaplain on bike with the relic crozius, mantra of strength litany, imperiums sword warlord trait, with the psychic power cast on him that gives plus one to attacks strength and toughness in the assault phase when charging or being charged would give you 9 str 9 attacks that hit on 2s wound anything T8 and under on 2s at -3 ap and at 4 damage. This is all on a T6 7W 3+ 4++ model.
Ive been working on my BA lists for a while and I've broken it down into two two different builds I'm 3/4 finished painting them both which should I focus on and should I make any changes
U02dah4 wrote: Ive been working on my BA lists for a while and I've broken it down into two two different builds I'm 3/4 finished painting them both which should I focus on and should I make any changes
I was curious if you have had the opportunity to playtest either of this lists since posting this. Which secondaries are you gunning for with either list? My first thought with dread heavy list is that it might be missing enough "cheap" trading pieces with obsec to play the primary mission consistently well. I prefer the relative balance of the other list for that reason.
One other question about the Terminator Captain in Dread list - is he in there to hand out re-rolls to the dreads or will he be trying to get into the mix? On paper he looks an awkward match for supporting speedy Vanguard Vets or Sang Guard with jump packs.
Unfortunately no its 3 weeks till covid restrictions are lifted in my country and I'm able to play again).
The board control list is clearer on the mission front
Basic missions - (unless obvious kill mission)
Blade of Sanguinius ( Captain)
Oaths of moment
Relentless assault
The dreadnought list feels like a stronger combination of units but it is definitely less good at playing the mission and I need more practice to select them well
As to the terminator captain in the dreadnought list its always going to deploy in deepstrike whether it comes down with vanguard or Sanguinary guard really depends on my opponent list maybe it's dropping to provide reroll charges and take an objective maybe it's trying to hit a large target it's very situational. However with the fury of the first strat and a reroll hit and wound its a pretty strong unit
What do people think re: troop choices for Blood Angels? Lean into melee with Assault Intercessors? Use Incursors or Infiltrators to claim the midfield early? Use regular or heavy Intercessors for backfield camping? Tac squads for the heavy/special weapons?
I’m working on a Lamenters army and have lots of units at my disposal but I’m wondering what to work on first, for best effect. Planning to use plenty of smashy characters, Bladeguard, Sang guard, and VVs for my melee.
Porphyrius wrote: What do people think re: troop choices for Blood Angels? Lean into melee with Assault Intercessors? Use Incursors or Infiltrators to claim the midfield early? Use regular or heavy Intercessors for backfield camping? Tac squads for the heavy/special weapons?
They all have some merit to them and I usually take a blend due to points and utility mix.
Incursors - For me, they strike the right balance of affordability and utility. With concealed position, it's nice to have flexibility to claim an midboard objective right off the bat. This helps with scoring domination early. They also have access to smokescreen for additional protection and an alternative to burning transhuman to add durability (or be used in conjunction with if you are really desperate to hold a point). They have native - 1 AP which pairs well with BA savage echoes and red thirst. Most importantly for me, they have access to the guerilla tactics which gives me another unit to quickly redeploy into my opponents deployment zone later in the game to finish out deploy scramblers or boost engage on all fronts, relentless assault or linebreaker or even to claim a late game primary. So much utility.
Infiltrators - trade Incursors CC synergy for more shooting threat, access to even more durability with their pseudo medic, and the ability to spoil your opponents deepstrike plans. For me, wouldn't go big on these guys because they aren't cheap, but a single squad of 5 has its uses.
Intercessors - Okay at clearing chaff. A 5 man with Assault bolt rifles can just about take down 2 10 man guard squads if you want to invest the CP to double shoot and follow up with a charge. Assault bolters give em decent speed advancing and shooting. Decent all around threat range with more strat support than tacticals and enough attacks to beat up on other troops but pretty toothless against more elite infantry without a power weapon on the sarge. Not too pricey.
Assault intercessors - cheap 2w transhuman-able bodies with buckets of attacks in melee and enough AP to cause problems for even elite infantry in Assault doctrine. Benefit from the fact that your opponent can't really avoid sending stuff into the midboard to claim objectives which makes getting them into combat by turn 2 while walking within the realm of possibility. You won't feel bad advancing them because their shooting is negligible. I tend to find them a little too one dimensional as troops and overshadowed by the sheer killing power of our other CC options.
Tacticals - make it in when I want the absolute cheapest access to 10 3+ wounds to sit on a back field point or to trade away on a point at the start of the game when I'm trying to bait out an opponent. The grav cannon and multi-melta heavy weapons sometimes interest me but I just don't really care for -1 to hit on infantry heavy weapons.
Heavy intercessors - too expensive for me. Mediocre in melee. More durable than I've really needed for my backfield campers. Can't use the double shoot strat. My buffing units have more attractive options so they don't get support to maximize their heavier guns. You can buy a squad of 5 of these guys or a squad of 5 Sanguinary Guard...If you play Death Guard every week and need to always play a really cagey and conservative game, maybe??
TLDR:
So for a standard battalion list, usually 2x5 incursors, 1x5 intercessor has given me the tools I need. Swap the intercessor for a barebone tac if I need 10 points for something.
Great write up @Sobie and I 100% agree with your troops selections. I think that is about the right amount. Although I'm sitting 10 intercessors on my home field obj as 5 just don't seem to do much of anything IMHO.
Greetings brothers, I'm new here and I'm between the others, also a Blood Angels player.
Now with the came out of Drukhari how do you set your army for try to fight them?
I figured out we need ti crack their veichels but its so difficult to manage all of those raiders, I know we should kill for one at a times, break It with Fire then charge and try to eliminate passengers but I think we lack option for that.
I'm trying a double team of eradicator, supported by a couple of ATV and a team of 5 inceptor, do you think its enought for the job?
Wich secondary missions you suggest against them?
