Stolen from reddit.

Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition that I can't read, sorry.

White Scars: 1) can Charge after Advance or Fall Back and 2) can fire Assault with no penalty after an Advance move.

Space Wolves: 1) +1 to hit in melee if the unit charged, was charged or HR and 2) units with this tactic can HR as if they were characters.

Imperial Fists: 1) ignore Light Cover and 2) 2 additional hits with unmodified 6s with bolt weapons.

Crimson Fists: 1) +1 to hit when the target unit contains 5+ more models than this unit (VEHICLE counts as 5) and 2) 1 additional hit with unmodified 6s with bolt weapons.

Black Templars: 1) reroll Advance and Charge rolls and 2) 5+ feel no pain against mortal wounds.

Blood Angels: 1) +1 to wound when charging, charged or HR and 2) +1" to Advance and Charge rolls.

Flesh Tearers: 1) +1 to wound when charging, charged or HR and 2) -1 AP on unmodified wound rolls of 6.
Iron Hands: 1) 6+ feel no pain and 2) double wounds on the damage chart.

Ultramarines: 1) +1 Leadership and 2) can shoot in a turn during which it Falls Back, but at -1 to hit.

Salamanders:1) each time a model with this tactic is selected to shoot or fight, you can reroll one wound roll when resolving that unit's attack and 2) each time an attack with an AP characteristic of -1 is allocated...treat it as 0 instead.

Raven Guard: 1) count as being in Light Cover if the attacker is more than 18" away and 2) INFANTRY only count as being in Dense Cover if the attacker is more than 12" away.

Deathwatch: 1) each time a model with this tactic makes a melee attack against TYRANID, AELDARI, ORK, NECRONS or TAU, reroll a hit roll of 1 and 2) after both sides have finished deploying their armies, select one battlefield role. Until the end of the battle, each time a model with this tactic makes an attack against an enemy unit with that battlefield role, reroll a wound roll of 1.

Isn't the IF one currently 1 extra hit on 6's? I can't believe they would double it - that would be silly.

A lot of those seem tasty with none jumping out as being super OP right now.

Wolf global Heroic Intervention (I assume that's what HR is supposed to mean) seems crazy.

I absolutely hate everything about the Deathwatch tactic. That's just awful for gameplay.

IF better not be twice as effective dakka dakka dakka while auto hitting or I'll need a new hobby

The BA one is unchanged, I am cool with that as the +1 to wound rolls is pretty nice on the charge. And +1" to charge and advance is very nice.

That Deathwatch one is a bit... yeah.

The White Scars one matches their current post-faq trait, that's something.

Salamanders took a huge hit.

IF does appear to have gone up though.

Wayniac wrote:
A lot of those seem tasty with none jumping out as being super OP right now.

Turning bolters into tesla is super feckin busted, ngl. Especially when they ignore cover. You're looking at Heavy Bolters in Dev doctrine being Ap-2 (AP-3 if the unit would have gotten light cover) and every roll of 6 generating two extra shots. Combine that with the CM ability to reroll all hits and you'll end up with some pretty ridiculous highroll shots with people fishing for sixes.

Imagine a Contemptor Mortis suddenly spitting out 24-36 shots per turn at AP-3 against units in cover.

 Arbitrator wrote:
That Deathwatch one is a bit... yeah.

Which they've locked themselves in with.

No new Xenos any time soon, guys...

Pretty sure its 1 extra hit for Imperial Fists, and its just blurry/unfocused camera which is making people think its a 2. Unless there's a better picture than the one on reddit.

ERJAK wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
A lot of those seem tasty with none jumping out as being super OP right now.

Turning bolters into tesla is super feckin busted, ngl. Especially when they ignore cover. You're looking at Heavy Bolters in Dev doctrine being Ap-2 (AP-3 if the unit would have gotten light cover) and every roll of 6 generating two extra shots. Combine that with the CM ability to reroll all hits and you'll end up with some pretty ridiculous highroll shots with people fishing for sixes.

Imagine a Contemptor Mortis suddenly spitting out 24-36 shots per turn at AP-3 against units in cover.

Before people get carried away.

Do note this is transcribed from someone else.

It looks 1 additional hit to me.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
A lot of those seem tasty with none jumping out as being super OP right now.

Turning bolters into tesla is super feckin busted, ngl. Especially when they ignore cover. You're looking at Heavy Bolters in Dev doctrine being Ap-2 (AP-3 if the unit would have gotten light cover) and every roll of 6 generating two extra shots. Combine that with the CM ability to reroll all hits and you'll end up with some pretty ridiculous highroll shots with people fishing for sixes.

Imagine a Contemptor Mortis suddenly spitting out 24-36 shots per turn at AP-3 against units in cover.

Before people get carried away.

Do note this is transcribed from someone else.

It looks 1 additional hit to me.

I figured it would be, it's just laughably OP if it somehow isn't. You'd have HB hB centurions kicking out enough dice to put Chessex on the Dow Jones Industrial.

 Arbitrator wrote:
That Deathwatch one is a bit... yeah.

The second part they allready have it. And the first one is not that... good. They were space marines. If you had units outside the aura of your watch masters you were doing it wrong.

I mean, as a dark angel player, having the "reroll 1's if not moving" was the equivalent of not having a subfaction trait basically.

I wonder if it is going to work on those new primaris tanks. Quad mini bolters and two miniguns could give a lot of 6s rolled.

So Raven Guard get -1 to be hit and +1 to their armour save outside of 18 even when out in the open? Alpha Legion eat your heart out.

Great to see that loyalists are getting another round of updated chapter tactics while csm continue to be stuck with our outdated ones. Sorry, just had to add a little .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
I wonder if it is going to work on those new primaris tanks. Quad mini bolters and two miniguns could give a lot of 6s rolled.

Of course it will. Don't be silly.

SInce CF are identical to now (1 extra hit on 6s), I highly doubt that IF jump to two.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
That Deathwatch one is a bit... yeah.

Which they've locked themselves in with.

No new Xenos any time soon, guys...

Oh come on, the Deathwatch need time to figure out the enemy!

Depends on which tactic, miniguns aren't bolters.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So Raven Guard get -1 to be hit and +1 to their armour save outside of 18 even when out in the open? Alpha Legion eat your heart out.

Great to see that loyalists are getting another round of updated chapter tactics while csm continue to be stuck with our outdated ones. Sorry, just had to add a little .

And it can be removed by someone having "ignores the effects of cover" on their weapon or unit...plus the Dense Terrain bonus only applies to Infantry keyworded units.

By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

YAY! I'm totally fine with that!

Probably a single platoon commander per detachment.
A single demon prince per detachment.
A single Hyve Tyrant per detachment.
A single Tau Commander per detach... oh...

Wayniac wrote:
A lot of those seem tasty with none jumping out as being super OP right now.

Additional TWO (2) auto-hits on natural 6 to hit seems pretty good to me... White Scars can basically Advance every turn without penalty in a new edition heavily incentivizing movement...

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

Nice in principle, meaningless in practice.

Phenatix wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
A lot of those seem tasty with none jumping out as being super OP right now.

Additional TWO (2) auto-hits on natural 6 to hit seems pretty good to me... White Scars can basically Advance every turn without penalty in a new edition heavily incentivizing movement...

They add only one, it was an error.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, it seems like GW is cutting down on rerolls if you look at this list and the necron one.

I would love it.

Spoletta wrote:

Phenatix wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
A lot of those seem tasty with none jumping out as being super OP right now.

Additional TWO (2) auto-hits on natural 6 to hit seems pretty good to me... White Scars can basically Advance every turn without penalty in a new edition heavily incentivizing movement...

They add only one, it was an error.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, it seems like GW is cutting down on rerolls if you look at this list and the necron one.

I would love it.

thank god. +1 to both directions, much healthier for general gameplay

Love that salamanders are given nothing in exchange for the hit reroll being gone. We were clearly way too OP compared to the other chapters.

The Newman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

Nice in principle, meaningless in practice.

There's limits as to how many Detachments you can take for point brackets too...so far less meaningless than you might think.

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

That sounds awful. Not everyone has the range of HQ's marines have. At this stage I'm down to 2 options I can use outside legends. (In terms of models I have not overall although some are in a worse place than Eldar).

Karol wrote:
I wonder if it is going to work on those new primaris tanks. Quad mini bolters and two miniguns could give a lot of 6s rolled.

In the case of the miniguns, are they Bolt weapons? I didn't think the Gatling Cannon weapons were, but I may not be up-to-date on that.

pm713 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

That sounds awful. Not everyone has the range of HQ's marines have. At this stage I'm down to 2 options I can use outside legends. (In terms of models I have not overall although some are in a worse place than Eldar).

There are some new HQs coming it looks like. One of them is definitely Drukhari--either Lelith Hesperax or a new Wych character.

 Dysartes wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder if it is going to work on those new primaris tanks. Quad mini bolters and two miniguns could give a lot of 6s rolled.

In the case of the miniguns, are they Bolt weapons? I didn't think the Gatling Cannon weapons were, but I may not be up-to-date on that.

They are not.

pm713 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

That sounds awful. Not everyone has the range of HQ's marines have. At this stage I'm down to 2 options I can use outside legends. (In terms of models I have not overall although some are in a worse place than Eldar).

We don't know which limitations are going to be placed.
They are not following 100% the fluff, or chaplains and librarians would also likely get a limitation.

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

That sounds awful. Not everyone has the range of HQ's marines have. At this stage I'm down to 2 options I can use outside legends. (In terms of models I have not overall although some are in a worse place than Eldar).

There are some new HQs coming it looks like. One of them is definitely Drukhari--either Lelith Hesperax or a new Wych character.

Oh, good I can be forced to take characters or finally get something that GW cut out for no reason.

By "a new Wych character", I'm meaning a potential new type.
The video that GW dropped today showed off a Palatine for the Sororitas in full, and teased Ork, Drukhari, Skitarii, and Death Guard character models.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So Raven Guard get -1 to be hit and +1 to their armour save outside of 18 even when out in the open? Alpha Legion eat your heart out.

Great to see that loyalists are getting another round of updated chapter tactics while csm continue to be stuck with our outdated ones. Sorry, just had to add a little .

And it can be removed by someone having "ignores the effects of cover" on their weapon or unit...plus the Dense Terrain bonus only applies to Infantry keyworded units.

Right, so totally useless against IF, Iron Warriors, Noise Marines, and a few other random things. Guess Alpha Legion should be glad they get the -1 to be hit on their dreadnoughts and bikers. I don't really mind, I don't play Alpha Legion, and that shouldn't have been their legion trait in the first place. They never were the sneaky legion that got bonuses to cover saves and stealth in previous editions, that was The Eighth.

 Kanluwen wrote:
By "a new Wych character", I'm meaning a potential new type.
The video that GW dropped today showed off a Palatine for the Sororitas in full, and teased Ork, Drukhari, Skitarii, and Death Guard character models.

Surprisingly that could turn out to be decent. Although I'm not going to start praising GW for it.

The Adeptus Mechanicus character looked like some kind of skitarii HQ.

 Kanluwen wrote:
By "a new Wych character", I'm meaning a potential new type.
The video that GW dropped today showed off a Palatine for the Sororitas in full, and teased Ork, Drukhari, Skitarii, and Death Guard character models.

The "Wych" character has all the hallmarks of Lelith Hesperax, a finecast model. I expect it is her in plastic.

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
By "a new Wych character", I'm meaning a potential new type.
The video that GW dropped today showed off a Palatine for the Sororitas in full, and teased Ork, Drukhari, Skitarii, and Death Guard character models.

The "Wych" character has all the hallmarks of Lelith Hesperax, a finecast model. I expect it is her in plastic.

Other than all the armor and clothing, I'd agree.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
By "a new Wych character", I'm meaning a potential new type.
The video that GW dropped today showed off a Palatine for the Sororitas in full, and teased Ork, Drukhari, Skitarii, and Death Guard character models.

The "Wych" character has all the hallmarks of Lelith Hesperax, a finecast model. I expect it is her in plastic.

Other than all the armor and clothing, I'd agree.

I can still see that being Lelith, it's not like they wouldn't make an armoured Lelith. If everyone can jump rocks nothing is impossible..

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

That sounds awful. Not everyone has the range of HQ's marines have. At this stage I'm down to 2 options I can use outside legends. (In terms of models I have not overall although some are in a worse place than Eldar).

There are some new HQs coming it looks like. One of them is definitely Drukhari--either Lelith Hesperax or a new Wych character.

There's not really any reason to think this will apply to other armies. Everyone moaned about endless marine rerolls, this is likely just a thing to combat that specifically.

ERJAK wrote:
There's not really any reason to think this will apply to other armies. Everyone moaned about endless marine rerolls, this is likely just a thing to combat that specifically.

I should hope that's not the idea, because it's not much of a solution. It's not like people were bringing multiple Chapter Masters in the first place.

 Galas wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus character looked like some kind of skitarii HQ.

That was my gut reaction to what we saw in the video, too.

Speaking of Death Guard characters, I wonder when SMH series 3 will get a release over here...

 catbarf wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
There's not really any reason to think this will apply to other armies. Everyone moaned about endless marine rerolls, this is likely just a thing to combat that specifically.

I should hope that's not the idea, because it's not much of a solution. It's not like people were bringing multiple Chapter Masters in the first place.

I didn't say it was a good solution.

pm713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
By "a new Wych character", I'm meaning a potential new type.
The video that GW dropped today showed off a Palatine for the Sororitas in full, and teased Ork, Drukhari, Skitarii, and Death Guard character models.

The "Wych" character has all the hallmarks of Lelith Hesperax, a finecast model. I expect it is her in plastic.

Other than all the armor and clothing, I'd agree.

I can still see that being Lelith, it's not like they wouldn't make an armoured Lelith. If everyone can jump rocks nothing is impossible..

I did a slow pass on the video and noted: Small blade in hand; Super long hair; No shoes; Slightly less clothes than the average Wych. I'll be shocked if it isn't Lelith since she needs to get out of Finecast. I would be pleasantly surprised if we got a dual build kit like Dark Angels Master Lazarus, but I'm not holding my breath.

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

With the new detachments system it's no issue at all. Of all the 9th lists I've tried so far and all the list that I've just only though to play not a single one of them had 2 HQs of the same kind.

So all SM are getting a single book: is it going to be heavy like a bible with a thousand of pages (and a thousand of euro in cost) or every chapters just got a few pages with lots of options that just vanish? I mean, background pages aside, strategems for SW only between 8th codex and PA are 30+, most of them not shared with other chapters. Lots of unique units, traits, psyhic powers, relics, etc as well.

Seems like it's very much a solution to fluff issues that doesn't impact crunch as much as GW hope.

Atleast the chapter tactics haven't been made even more OP.

The book will have only the generic stuff and you keep using your old supplements with it.

In time, they will release new supplements.

Spoletta wrote:By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

I like it. Felt odd to have multiple Captains in one detachment.

Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition that I can't read, sorry.

is that really a thing? Seems a bit strong.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So Raven Guard get -1 to be hit and +1 to their armour save outside of 18 even when out in the open? Alpha Legion eat your heart out.

Great to see that loyalists are getting another round of updated chapter tactics while csm continue to be stuck with our outdated ones. Sorry, just had to add a little .

And it can be removed by someone having "ignores the effects of cover" on their weapon or unit...plus the Dense Terrain bonus only applies to Infantry keyworded units.

Right, so totally useless against IF, Iron Warriors, Noise Marines, and a few other random things. Guess Alpha Legion should be glad they get the -1 to be hit on their dreadnoughts and bikers. I don't really mind, I don't play Alpha Legion, and that shouldn't have been their legion trait in the first place. They never were the sneaky legion that got bonuses to cover saves and stealth in previous editions, that was The Eighth.

No, the new ignore cover is Ignore Light Cover so RG (and probably AL at some point) will still get the -1 to hit bonus for Dense Cover, just no + to save.

Spoletta wrote:
The book will have only the generic stuff and you keep using your old supplements with it.

In time, they will release new supplements.

There's a lot of stuff on the 8th codex though, with a single book it is very likely that I'll lose a significant amount of options.

nekooni wrote:
Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition that I can't read, sorry.

is that really a thing? Seems a bit strong.

Might be reroll 1's which is what they have now maybe? +1 would be quicker though.

Dudeface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition that I can't read, sorry.

is that really a thing? Seems a bit strong.

Might be reroll 1's which is what they have now maybe? +1 would be quicker though.

well, and much stronger, considering that'd stack with a captain for basically full rerolls.

Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

nekooni wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition that I can't read, sorry.

is that really a thing? Seems a bit strong.

Might be reroll 1's which is what they have now maybe? +1 would be quicker though.

well, and much stronger, considering that'd stack with a captain for basically full rerolls.

It would but given the new terrain rules and importance of moving to objectives it might not kick in that often.

Dudeface wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Dark Angels: 1) +1 to hit if the unit did not move in this turn and 2) something about Combat Attrition that I can't read, sorry.

is that really a thing? Seems a bit strong.

Might be reroll 1's which is what they have now maybe? +1 would be quicker though.

well, and much stronger, considering that'd stack with a captain for basically full rerolls.

It would but given the new terrain rules and importance of moving to objectives it might not kick in that often.

Yeah, but what you move is the capturing units that don't have that much firepower. You'll still have your Predators and such sitting elsewhere (eg your deployment zone) with a fire corridor pointing at an objective. If you're getting constantly shot off of the objectives you'll lose the primary objective for sure, it's not like killing something is no longer part of the game.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

IF has to be a mistake from the transcript. Why would CF be 1 extra hit and IF 2?

RG and DA though...

Some of the folks over on B&C have been deciphering some of the unit entries from the contents page in the preview video and it looks like loyalists now have a Relic Terminator squad, so probably merging Cataphractii and Tartaros into one data sheet. Wonder which stat line they go with.

Oh, and if csm don't get this, expect salt.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross.

Are you really surprised?

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

Nice in principle, meaningless in practice.

There's limits as to how many Detachments you can take for point brackets too...so far less meaningless than you might think.

Nah, one Captain and one Lt was the most that it ever made sense to put in a single detachment unless you were do8ng something janky.

The Newman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

Nice in principle, meaningless in practice.

There's limits as to how many Detachments you can take for point brackets too...so far less meaningless than you might think.

Nah, one Captain and one Lt was the most that it ever made sense to put in a single detachment unless you were do8ng something janky.

Right. Which is why it matters, because people do janky things with smash captains, tau commanders, tank commanders, etc.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Some of the folks over on B&C have been deciphering some of the unit entries from the contents page in the preview video and it looks like loyalists now have a Relic Terminator squad, so probably merging Cataphractii and Tartaros into one data sheet. Wonder which stat line they go with.

Oh, and if csm don't get this, expect salt.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross.

Are you really surprised?

No, not really.

But I didn't expect changes to even further increase the power of CT's so soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

Nice in principle, meaningless in practice.

There's limits as to how many Detachments you can take for point brackets too...so far less meaningless than you might think.

Nah, one Captain and one Lt was the most that it ever made sense to put in a single detachment unless you were do8ng something janky.

Right. Which is why it matters, because people do janky things with smash captains, tau commanders, tank commanders, etc.

I don't think IG TC's will be the 1/detach unit. Probably CC's.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Some of the folks over on B&C have been deciphering some of the unit entries from the contents page in the preview video and it looks like loyalists now have a Relic Terminator squad, so probably merging Cataphractii and Tartaros into one data sheet. Wonder which stat line they go with.

Oh, and if csm don't get this, expect salt.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross.

Are you really surprised?

No, not really.

But I didn't expect changes to even further increase the power of CT's so soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

Nice in principle, meaningless in practice.

There's limits as to how many Detachments you can take for point brackets too...so far less meaningless than you might think.

Nah, one Captain and one Lt was the most that it ever made sense to put in a single detachment unless you were do8ng something janky.

Right. Which is why it matters, because people do janky things with smash captains, tau commanders, tank commanders, etc.

I don't think IG TC's will be the 1/detach unit. Probably CC's.

TC should be - it might be why they did not get a proper pts cost rise?

I don't mind Salamanders getting nerfed even though they're my main army (quite the opposite, marines in general could do with a nerf), but it's pretty hilarious that they are the only chapter who gets nerfed chapter tactics (or at the very least, gets the biggest nerf to their chapter tactic.)

Apparently Salamanders are the best chapter and most in need of a nerf.
I had no idea, but that explains all the Salamander-armies everywhere.

(That last bit was sarcasm.)

nekooni wrote:

IF has to be a mistake from the transcript. Why would CF be 1 extra hit and IF 2?

RG and DA though...

I originally transcribed all these and to me it definitely looks like a 2. I could be wrong though:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I don't mind Salamanders getting nerfed even though they're my main army (quite the opposite, marines in general could do with a nerf), but it's pretty hilarious that they are the only chapter who gets nerfed chapter tactics (or at the very least, gets the biggest nerf to their chapter tactic.)

Apparently Salamanders are the best chapter and most in need of a nerf.
I had no idea, but that explains all the Salamander-armies everywhere.

(That last bit was sarcasm.)

It might be a side-effect of nerfing the "pick your own chapter tactic" where you could reroll one hit & one wound per squad.

Seeing an increase in 3 men squads for Primaris, it might have been too strong of an option, compared to other traits.

I mean, now it is a choice and not a no-brainer anymore, isn't it?

 Aenar wrote:

nekooni wrote:

IF has to be a mistake from the transcript. Why would CF be 1 extra hit and IF 2?

RG and DA though...

I originally transcribed all these and to me it definitely looks like a 2. I could be wrong though:

Spoiler:

I think that's just an artifact. If you use a different frame it looks exactly like the number down in the CF tactic, and to me they look like a 1 most of the time (though I also can see how you'd read the IF one as a 2 in some frames). That's why my argument is based on comparing them to CF - they had the same effect in 8th, why would they change one but not the other. And it's not like IF, of all chapters, needed a buff.

 Mr Morden wrote:


TC should be - it might be why they did not get a proper pts cost rise?

Because TC's are a secondary HQ like a Librarian, Lieutenant, Chaplain, etc. and CC is the captain-equivalent. Should they be 1/? I guess, but so should CC's. Actually, the HQ commitment and allocation in general needs to go down drastically, there's way too many characters as is. Why are 3 Majors [each of whom should command a company of 100 men] leading two platoons between them?

That said, I don't think they [or Leman Russes] need a points cost rise. TC's only need one in relation to regular tanks, which needed the opposite of a points cost rise. And unlike most other vehicles, Leman Russes receive nearly no benefit from the changes to vehicle rules, since they already ignored move/fire penalties on their main gun and can't use their main gun in combat anyway and any benefits that Blast might have are essentially academic.



This isn't about the IG though. As far as things go, seeing a captain restriction is good. I hope to see it rolled out to other factions. Unfortunately, the HQ allocation per battalion is still 2-3, when I think it should be 1-2, but it's a start.

And as far as the CT's go, I've said my piece, I'm suprised that they buffed almost all of them so soon, especially when Space Marines in general just received nerfs that almost certainly weren't enough.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I don't mind Salamanders getting nerfed even though they're my main army (quite the opposite, marines in general could do with a nerf), but it's pretty hilarious that they are the only chapter who gets nerfed chapter tactics (or at the very least, gets the biggest nerf to their chapter tactic.)

Apparently Salamanders are the best chapter and most in need of a nerf.
I had no idea, but that explains all the Salamander-armies everywhere.

(That last bit was sarcasm.)

It might be a side-effect of nerfing the "pick your own chapter tactic" where you could reroll one hit & one wound per squad.

Seeing an increase in 3 men squads for Primaris, it might have been too strong of an option, compared to other traits.

I mean, now it is a choice and not a no-brainer anymore, isn't it?

Don't see a reason to nerf the FF Chapter Tactic just to reign in a Successor trait when they could've just fixed the Successor traits. Now I'm just even more compelled to go Successor instead of Salamanders, at least if the 3'' Range trait is still around (which hopefully isn't a thing anymore).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


TC should be - it might be why they did not get a proper pts cost rise?

Because TC's are a secondary HQ like a Librarian, Lieutenant, Chaplain, etc. and CC is the captain-equivalent. Should they be 1/? I guess, but so should CC's. Actually, the HQ commitment and allocation in general needs to go down drastically, there's way too many characters as is. Why are 3 Majors [each of whom should command a company of 100 men] leading two platoons between them?

That's because they fethed up the amount of orders the officers can give.

CC - Company of 3 Platoons
PC - Platoon of 3 Squads

So PCs should have 3 orders and the CC should have something different, like give the PCs a buff to their orders (eg. go back to requiring a check for each order, and have the CC grant his PCs a buff or even auto-pass on that)

 MinscS2 wrote:
I don't mind Salamanders getting nerfed even though they're my main army (quite the opposite, marines in general could do with a nerf), but it's pretty hilarious that they are the only chapter who gets nerfed chapter tactics (or at the very least, gets the biggest nerf to their chapter tactic.)

Apparently Salamanders are the best chapter and most in need of a nerf.
I had no idea, but that explains all the Salamander-armies everywhere.

(That last bit was sarcasm.)

You need to look at Iron Hands again. They lost one of the three bonuses they got in the 2nd 8th Edition Codex.

 alextroy wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I don't mind Salamanders getting nerfed even though they're my main army (quite the opposite, marines in general could do with a nerf), but it's pretty hilarious that they are the only chapter who gets nerfed chapter tactics (or at the very least, gets the biggest nerf to their chapter tactic.)

Apparently Salamanders are the best chapter and most in need of a nerf.
I had no idea, but that explains all the Salamander-armies everywhere.

(That last bit was sarcasm.)

You need to look at Iron Hands again. They lost one of the three bonuses they got in the 2nd 8th Edition Codex.

One of which doesn't affect their Infantry whatsoever.

Spoletta wrote:By the way, marines are also getting the HQ limitations.

Max 1 cap and 2 Lt per detachment.
Guess that they are coming for everyone then.

I wonder what that means to stuff like GMNDKs or armies that don't have Lt level characters.

The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

CF vehicles count as 5 models for the purpose of that tactic. Not the enemy vehicles. It's much less applicable than the DA one - and DA aren't just Ravenwing.

nekooni wrote:
I think that's just an artifact. If you use a different frame it looks exactly like the number down in the CF tactic, and to me they look like a 1 most of the time (though I also can see how you'd read the IF one as a 2 in some frames). That's why my argument is based on comparing them to CF - they had the same effect in 8th, why would they change one but not the other. And it's not like IF, of all chapters, needed a buff.

It does look like a 2 to me

Afaik, vehicles counted as 1 model in 8th; now as 5 which is a buff for the CF trait


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

CF vehicles count as 5 models for the purpose of that tactic. Not the enemy vehicles. It's much less applicable than the DA one - and DA aren't just Ravenwing.

Strange; it would make sense if enemy vehicles counted as 5 also.

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

If it also applies to meele basically means you have your 1+ if you don't consolidate. It is a big buff compared to the old one that basically was not in action 95% of the time. It was basically as not having a subfaction tactic.

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

There's a chaplain on bike coming : with the stoic prosecution littany it could be great for ravenwing.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

There's a chaplain on bike coming : with the stoic prosecution littany it could be great for ravenwing.

Just a chaplain or are they removing their heads from their asses and giving all characters on bikes back?

pm713 wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

There's a chaplain on bike coming : with the stoic prosecution littany it could be great for ravenwing.

Just a chaplain or are they removing their heads from their asses and giving all characters on bikes back?

I hope for the latter, but the way they showed that model off (and all the chaplain details on his limbs, chest and the bike itself), its probably chaplain only.
But there may be 1-3 more kits coming later. Especially lieutenant on bike, of course, but perhaps also captain on bike and librarian on bike.


Also, I'm reading through the Indomitus novel, and this just happened:

The assault ramp of the drop pod pitched open... Boots clanging, he led the Intercessor squad out onto the surface of Orestes III. They were not the first to make planetfall. That honour had fallen to the outrider squad, whose specially modified pod

Thorpe, Gav. Indomitus (Warhammer 40,000) (p. 180). Kindle Edition.

So. Primaris drop pods. Including the new bikes.
Nothing official, model-wise. But its in the novel.
Edit: Oh. Aggressors out of drop pods as well... or they just turned up some other way with no context.

The Judiciar is also referred to as a 'Chaplain in Waiting.' Basically a chaplain lieutenant.

Well now I get to be annoyed at 2 things. Low chance of bike librarian and the knowledge that gav thorpe is wring primaris junk instead of finishing the things he started.

Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

pm713 wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

There's a chaplain on bike coming : with the stoic prosecution littany it could be great for ravenwing.

Just a chaplain or are they removing their heads from their asses and giving all characters on bikes back?

Are we talking about all characters on bikes, or just the ones for loyalists?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:
The Dark Angels one sounds tasty at first, but it doesn't seem to synergize well with Ravenwing. Also, staying stationary in 9th edition might have limited applications.

CF trait sounds quite good; being able to get +1 to hit vehicles is a major improvement on their tactic.

There's a chaplain on bike coming : with the stoic prosecution littany it could be great for ravenwing.

Just a chaplain or are they removing their heads from their asses and giving all characters on bikes back?

Are we talking about all characters on bikes, or just the ones for loyalists?

I'm not really familiar with non loyalist characters on bikes unless they're the Eldar Autarch. But I think they should give the rules for bike characters to everyone who should have them.

Doomrider doesn't Ring a Bell pm713?

Heck nearly all csm hq could be Bikers in the past...

That's a lot of Bikers back from Legends.

A very vague bell. I don't see any reason you can't have bikes be a common upgrade for marines (all flavours). They're hardly rare and complex technology and the only reason they seem to have gone is GW weirdness most of the time.

Chapterhouse , not wierdness, sadly..

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chapterhouse , not wierdness, sadly..

Justify to me how Chapterhouse necessitated changes like T'au, Aeldari, Drukhari, the absence of bikes, trueborn, eviscerators on a canoness and so on. Because unless chapterhouse poisoned the GW management and triggered mass brain damage I don't see how they did.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

Well the 'double dakka' is transcription error- its the same rules the IF currently have, and the other is actually a nerf from the 'AL +1' the RG already had.

Nothing is going to change there until the next chaos codex.

pm713 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chapterhouse , not wierdness, sadly..

Justify to me how Chapterhouse necessitated changes like T'au, Aeldari, Drukhari, the absence of bikes, trueborn, eviscerators on a canoness and so on. Because unless chapterhouse poisoned the GW management and triggered mass brain damage I don't see how they did.

Copyright law technicallity Leading to "no models no rules " in Order to Protect Copyright and lower available Market Space for 3rd Parties.

Not Online!!! wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chapterhouse , not wierdness, sadly..

Justify to me how Chapterhouse necessitated changes like T'au, Aeldari, Drukhari, the absence of bikes, trueborn, eviscerators on a canoness and so on. Because unless chapterhouse poisoned the GW management and triggered mass brain damage I don't see how they did.

Copyright law technicallity Leading to "no models no rules " in Order to Protect Copyright and lower available Market Space for 3rd Parties.

That to me is not a sufficient explanation. Several things they've removed had models, that doesn't explain the incredibly awful names they've been adding and that doesn't explain why they can't just MAKE THE MODEL. Especially when there's a thousand and one lieutenants around.

Well they could , See but it is easier to copy Paste and slightly adapt Sm files compared to the rather allready baroque recent csm Style, especially in hq for them... Not to mention new files from ground up would probably be needed for the overaged aeldari Line...

And easier means less time ergo less money spent for result.

Voss wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

Well the 'double dakka' is transcription error- its the same rules the IF currently have, and the other is actually a nerf from the 'AL +1' the RG already had.

Nothing is going to change there until the next chaos codex.

Is it? They have to be farther away to get the free cover bonus but before the -1 to be hit required them to be in cover, now they get it on open ground. Maybe it's more of a side grade than a upgrade or downgrade. Not sure, have to think about how it'll work with the new terrain rules.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well they could , See but it is easier to copy Paste and slightly adapt Sm files compared to the rather allready baroque recent csm Style, especially in hq for them... Not to mention new files from ground up would probably be needed for the overaged aeldari Line...

And easier means less time ergo less money spent for result.

They could also just say use the marine models and add spikes to taste. That's even easier. GW just suck.

Oof, that Salamander Nerf hurts. I get why they are doing it (with limited captain slots they seem to be reducing rerolls). But man that really stings. Like Stings-At-A-Fundamental-Tactics level stings.

As long as they reduce re-rolls across the board I feel it will be good for the game as a whole - if its just a slap at the Salamanders/MA I will be pretty annoyed. It still stings and I kind of wish they got something to compensate for it (especially when other CT's like UM's value skyrockets due to the fly change). But I'm not going to complain too much. I'll still try to make do with the boys in green.

Otoh due to mission and edition changes Flamers are looking a lot spicier now...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

Well the 'double dakka' is transcription error- its the same rules the IF currently have, and the other is actually a nerf from the 'AL +1' the RG already had.

Nothing is going to change there until the next chaos codex.

Is it? They have to be farther away to get the free cover bonus but before the -1 to be hit required them to be in cover, now they get it on open ground. Maybe it's more of a side grade than a upgrade or downgrade. Not sure, have to think about how it'll work with the new terrain rules.

It doesn't work with the new terrain rules. If you have light cover (or dense cover), that's what you've got.

Plus consider the tactics of the edition- both sides want to move forward and take objectives and accomplish secondaries. Hanging back at 12 (and especially 18) is going to be harder.
Someone drops in at 9" or pushes aggressively and they might as well not have chapter tactics.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

Because its probably still 1 and people are overreacting.

Whilst GW is prone to bouts of logic and simply loves changing horses mid race, so we might never see this train of thought get that far, but when I see this:

"Raven Guard: 1) count as being in Light Cover if the attacker is more than 18" away and 2) INFANTRY only count as being in Dense Cover if the attacker is more than 12" away."

... I immediately think that 'harder to hit' rules (Alaitoc, Alpha Legion) are going to find out that 18" is the new 12".

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

RG is weaker than before. DA was largely useless. Who stands still for RR1s when you have full rerolls available?

Edit: never mind.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Salamanders took a huge hit.

IF does appear to have gone up though.

Uh, no, we didn't. We got better. All of the BRs I have watched say that AP-1 means a lot this edition. Being able to ignore it will be awesome.

Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

Salamanders currently ignore AP1.

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

We already had ignore AP1 (Which is significant). The change to the CT is a direct nerf because we don't reroll a hit roll.

The Deathwatch really need a more interesting/useful one. The to-wound reroll was kind of relevant when they wrote it in 7e but at the moment it's just worse than having Lieutenants.

Though at least the "select a battlefield role" clause means it can be used against Dedicated Transports in 9e.

The Necron Codes with the slight nerfs here are encouraging.

MEPHRIT: SOLAR FURY
Add 3" to the range characteristic of ranged weapons(excluding something) that models with this code are equipped with.
Each time a model with this code makes a ranged attack that targets a model within half range, the armour penetration characteristic of that attack is improved by 1.
When the protocol of the vengeful stars is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

NOVOKH: AWAKENED BY MURDER
Add 1" to charge rolls made for units with this code.
Each time a model with tthis code makes a melee attack, if the model has made a charge move, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention this turn, improve the armour penetration characteristic of this attack by 1.
When the protocol of the hungry void is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

NEPHREKH: TRANSLOCATION BEAMS
Models with this code have a 6+ invulnerable save.
Each time a unit witth this code advances, it can translocate. If it does, do not make an advance roll for it. Instead, until the end of ttthe phase, add 6" to the move characteristic of the models in that unit. If a model translocated, until the end of the turn, models in that unit cannot shoot.
Each time a unit with this code falls back or translocates, until the end of tthe phase, models in that unit can move over models and terrain as if they were not there.
When the protocol of the sudden storm is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

NIHILAKH: AGGRESSIVELY TERRITORIAL
Units with this code have the objective secured ability as in the core book. If a model in such a unit already has this ability, that model counts as one additional model when dettermining control of an objective marker.
Each time an attack with an armour penetration characteristic of -1 is allocated to a model with this code, if that model's unit is wholly within its controller's deployment zone, that attack has an armour penetration characteristic of 0 instead.
When the protocol of the eternal guardian is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

SZAREKHAN: UNCANNY ARTIFICERS
Each time a model witth this code would take a wound as the result of a mortal wound, roll one D6, on a 5+ that wound is ignored.
Each time a unitt with this code is selected to shoot or fight, you can re-roll one wound roll when making that unit's attacls.
When the protocol of the undying legions is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

SAUTEKH: RELENTLESS ADVANCE
Each time a morale test is ttaken for a unit with this code, you can re-roll that test.
Instead of following the normal rules for rapid fire weapons, models with this code shooting rapid-fire weapons make double the number of attacks if the shooting model's target is within 18".
When the protocol of the conquering tyrant is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

Salamanders currently ignore AP1.

...I am aware.

Necrons are coming back to the meta. The current ’word on the street’ is that Reanimation is rolled at the end of the morale phase. You roll only for models that died that turn, but you can roll for entirely wiped out units as well, at a -1.

But, considering all the bonuses to that roll that will be available, with even decent luck, the last models of every unit will keep perpetually getting up on the objectives they stand on.

That new Nihalakh trait is going to be good in the new missions. Everything in the army with obsec? No troops tax for those guys.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

RG is weaker than before. DA was largely useless. Who stands still for RR1s when you have full rerolls available?

Wasn't RG:
You gain the benefits of cover if you're more than 12" away.
If you're on a terrain feature and not a vehicle you also get -1 to be hit.

Now it's:
You gain the benefits of light cover if you're more than 18" away.
You have -1 to be hit from more than 12" away.

Which seems to me to be a buff.

pm713 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well they could , See but it is easier to copy Paste and slightly adapt Sm files compared to the rather allready baroque recent csm Style, especially in hq for them... Not to mention new files from ground up would probably be needed for the overaged aeldari Line...

And easier means less time ergo less money spent for result.

They could also just say use the marine models and add spikes to taste. That's even easier. GW just suck.

They also need to find time in their release schedule that is already clogged up like crazy in the middle of a pandemic to release those extra models. Instead of fixing it they just decided to squat them... it's not loyalist astartes so I guess they figured "feth them" squatted them and moved on. Maybe we'll get them back after space marines get about 3 codices worth of extra unit entries and everyone else gets their entire line updated in my optimistic two decade prediction. Put it simply: GW is convinced that it's more profitable to make more primaricrap than it is to fix our woefully inadequate HQ selections.

 catbarf wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
There's not really any reason to think this will apply to other armies. Everyone moaned about endless marine rerolls, this is likely just a thing to combat that specifically.

I should hope that's not the idea, because it's not much of a solution. It's not like people were bringing multiple Chapter Masters in the first place.

Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

Wakshaani wrote:
... one Hive Tyrant, etc.

No. We like our Tyrants the way they are thanks.

At this point I think I'd rather have that Salamanders can only reroll a wound roll on a flamer or melta weapon (and maybe thunderhammers) but they reduce AP by one instead of just ignoring AP-1. Meaning AP-2 becomes AP-1, AP-3 becomes AP-2, AP-4 becomes AP-3 etc.

This current change is just a straight nerf to one of the chapters that needs it the least, but I guess I can find some solace in it if this is truly a push from GW to minimise rerolls. Please, make the Chapter Master strat into something that makes the captain beefier and not shoutier.

PiñaColada wrote:
At this point I think I'd rather have that Salamanders can only reroll a wound roll on a flamer or melta weapon (and maybe thunderhammers) but they reduce AP by one instead of just ignoring AP-1. Meaning AP-2 becomes AP-1, AP-3 becomes AP-2, AP-4 becomes AP-3 etc.

This current change is just a straight nerf to one of the chapters that needs it the least, but I guess I can find some solace in it if this is truly a push from GW to minimise rerolls. Please, make the Chapter Master strat into something that makes the captain beefier and not shoutier.

Shoot, I'd love that but that is also REALLY good. Like Incredibly so. Reducing AP by 1 makes a lot of marine killer weapons a lot less effective against them.
But yeah I kind of wish we got something to compensate for that sucker punch, but MA did need a nerf and it feels better for game health tbh.

Yes, that is strong but so was their last CT and they were still bottom of the barrel. It's all hypothetical anyways but in my suggestion they almost wouldn't have any rerolls anymore. A singular wound reroll on a flame weapon is next to nothing so we're basically just talking about meltas. Which for the moment is pretty good considering eradicators are undercosted, but in a world where they have a more humane price you probably won't be fielding more than a handful of meltas anyways.

It'd speed up the game quite a bit and still provide a fluffy rule interpretation for their master artisanry.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

RG is weaker than before. DA was largely useless. Who stands still for RR1s when you have full rerolls available?

Wasn't RG:
You gain the benefits of cover if you're more than 12" away.
If you're on a terrain feature and not a vehicle you also get -1 to be hit.

Now it's:
You gain the benefits of light cover if you're more than 18" away.
You have -1 to be hit from more than 12" away.

Which seems to me to be a buff.

It's at best compensation for the fact that their minus 1 to hit is MUCH less useful in a world where modifiers are capped at +1/-1 and Dense Cover exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
There's not really any reason to think this will apply to other armies. Everyone moaned about endless marine rerolls, this is likely just a thing to combat that specifically.

I should hope that's not the idea, because it's not much of a solution. It's not like people were bringing multiple Chapter Masters in the first place.

Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

I could give a flying feth what the fluff justification is, I don't have other HQs to fill in if I can only take one canoness. Missionaries are terrible unless you're full melee, Celestine got most of her teeth taken out in the codex(even if she's still fine) Junith is Order locked, and the Triumph of Saint Katherine is utter, utter garbage. If the palatine comes out and the rules are gak, that's an incredibly unfair hit to an army that has nowhere else to go with their HQ choices.

Heck it is even annoying for those factions that have a slatter of HQ, which are highly specialised, with few general good HQ options.

Wakshaani wrote:


Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

Me too. It could have been nonsense in 8th when bringing multiple detachments was the thing of the edition, so 4-6 were needed to fill the mandatory slots. Now that everyone will work fine with just 1-2 HQs, banning the spam of a single type of HQs is simply healthy for the game because it only affects power playing.

 Blackie wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

Me too. It could have been nonsense in 8th when bringing multiple detachments was the thing of the edition, so 4-6 were needed to fill the mandatory slots. Now that everyone will work fine with just 1-2 HQs, banning the spam of a single type of HQs is simply healthy for the game because it only affects power playing.

No it doesn't. It just skews the game in favor of armies that have a large selection of HQ options. Space marines are totally unaffected by the HQ change because they have a ton of great HQ options, Sisters of battle are significantly damaged by the change because we only have 2 viable HQ choices for any army that isn't 100% close combat focused.

The new codex so far has preview only nerfs, that should tell you how much of a OP cashgrab the 2.0 8TH SM codex was

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Wasn't RG:
You gain the benefits of cover if you're more than 12" away.
If you're on a terrain feature and not a vehicle you also get -1 to be hit.

Now it's:
You gain the benefits of light cover if you're more than 18" away.
You have -1 to be hit from more than 12" away.

Which seems to me to be a buff.

Right, which means at 17.9" I negate light cover instead of 11.9". The -1 lost the terrain requirement, but with Dense cover being a thing and plenty of terrain on top of mod caps I don't really see it being a huge difference.

ERJAK wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:


Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

Me too. It could have been nonsense in 8th when bringing multiple detachments was the thing of the edition, so 4-6 were needed to fill the mandatory slots. Now that everyone will work fine with just 1-2 HQs, banning the spam of a single type of HQs is simply healthy for the game because it only affects power playing.

No it doesn't. It just skews the game in favor of armies that have a large selection of HQ options. Space marines are totally unaffected by the HQ change because they have a ton of great HQ options, Sisters of battle are significantly damaged by the change because we only have 2 viable HQ choices for any army that isn't 100% close combat focused.

Who is 100% close combat focussed though? Sisters will do fine because they just need 2 HQs to work and there's a shiny new character from Pariah. Heck even 1 could do if the player doesn't want the third FA and/or HS.

The missionaire is fine even if you have just a little bit of CQC, which is going to be a necessity in 9th. He has a really powerful buff in the CQC context and is extremely cheap. The fact that he also makes running 10 women squads much easier, is just a bonus.

But I play bloody rose, so he was already a given for me.

ERJAK wrote:

Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

I could give a flying feth what the fluff justification is, I don't have other HQs to fill in if I can only take one canoness. Missionaries are terrible unless you're full melee, Celestine got most of her teeth taken out in the codex(even if she's still fine) Junith is Order locked, and the Triumph of Saint Katherine is utter, utter garbage. If the palatine comes out and the rules are gak, that's an incredibly unfair hit to an army that has nowhere else to go with their HQ choices.

These rules changes seem to come out with Codexes. Sister of Battle should be save a least until January

And don't worry. GW is looking out for us with her:

 alextroy wrote:
And don't worry. GW is looking out for us with her:

Spoiler:

...is she planning on beating someone to death with her rosarius? You wear it, Ms. Palantine, you don't hit people with it...

 Dysartes wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And don't worry. GW is looking out for us with her:

Spoiler:

...is she planning on beating someone to death with her rosarius? You wear it, Ms. Palantine, you don't hit people with it...

Hit? No. That's a Holy Garrote my friend.

And she's carrying a Plasma Pistol instead of a Hand Flamer or Inferno Pistol? That's Heresy if I've ever seen it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And she's carrying a Plasma Pistol instead of a Hand Flamer or Inferno Pistol? That's Heresy if I've ever seen it.

Not really, Sisters have had plasma pistols since the first metals. Thank god she doesn't have a hand flamer with how overpriced those are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

I could give a flying feth what the fluff justification is, I don't have other HQs to fill in if I can only take one canoness. Missionaries are terrible unless you're full melee, Celestine got most of her teeth taken out in the codex(even if she's still fine) Junith is Order locked, and the Triumph of Saint Katherine is utter, utter garbage. If the palatine comes out and the rules are gak, that's an incredibly unfair hit to an army that has nowhere else to go with their HQ choices.

These rules changes seem to come out with Codexes. Sister of Battle should be save a least until January

And don't worry. GW is looking out for us with her:

Spoiler:

That's putting A LOT of weight on her shoulders to be good considering 2-3 canonesses are in almost every competitive SoB list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
The missionaire is fine even if you have just a little bit of CQC, which is going to be a necessity in 9th. He has a really powerful buff in the CQC context and is extremely cheap. The fact that he also makes running 10 women squads much easier, is just a bonus.

But I play bloody rose, so he was already a given for me.

Unless your list is dedicated CQC you should be using a preacher rather than a missionary.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
... one Hive Tyrant, etc.

No. We like our Tyrants the way they are thanks.

So did Tau with their Commanders and marines with their Smash and so on.

Keep in mind that Tyrannid are my largest army, so I'm not saying this from a position of ignorance.

If they blanket this across the game, it's a net positive. Bugs can get by just fine without five flying hive tyrants, you know? Just gotta play differently.

The DA one is great when combined with the chaplain litany (assuming they keep it). Moving to an objective and getting +1 to hit if litany is inspiring (units count as stationary).

Dysartes wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And don't worry. GW is looking out for us with her:

Spoiler:

...is she planning on beating someone to death with her rosarius? You wear it, Ms. Palantine, you don't hit people with it...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And she's carrying a Plasma Pistol instead of a Hand Flamer or Inferno Pistol? That's Heresy if I've ever seen it.

She’s obviously overcharging her plasma and has her rosarius in one hand to pray with, so the one with the pistol in it doesn’t get blown off.

Wakshaani wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
... one Hive Tyrant, etc.

No. We like our Tyrants the way they are thanks.

So did Tau with their Commanders and marines with their Smash and so on.

Keep in mind that Tyrannid are my largest army, so I'm not saying this from a position of ignorance.

If they blanket this across the game, it's a net positive. Bugs can get by just fine without five flying hive tyrants, you know? Just gotta play differently.

play differently as in lose more due to more points forced into worse choices

ERJAK wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And she's carrying a Plasma Pistol instead of a Hand Flamer or Inferno Pistol? That's Heresy if I've ever seen it.

Not really, Sisters have had plasma pistols since the first metals. Thank god she doesn't have a hand flamer with how overpriced those are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

I could give a flying feth what the fluff justification is, I don't have other HQs to fill in if I can only take one canoness. Missionaries are terrible unless you're full melee, Celestine got most of her teeth taken out in the codex(even if she's still fine) Junith is Order locked, and the Triumph of Saint Katherine is utter, utter garbage. If the palatine comes out and the rules are gak, that's an incredibly unfair hit to an army that has nowhere else to go with their HQ choices.

These rules changes seem to come out with Codexes. Sister of Battle should be save a least until January

And don't worry. GW is looking out for us with her:

Spoiler:

That's putting A LOT of weight on her shoulders to be good considering 2-3 canonesses are in almost every competitive SoB list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
The missionaire is fine even if you have just a little bit of CQC, which is going to be a necessity in 9th. He has a really powerful buff in the CQC context and is extremely cheap. The fact that he also makes running 10 women squads much easier, is just a bonus.

But I play bloody rose, so he was already a given for me.

Unless your list is dedicated CQC you should be using a preacher rather than a missionary.

I know they have access but it's still heresy to me. If you're gonna buy those bad Pistols at least buy ones that either light people on fire or shoot a hole of fire.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...I know they have access but it's still heresy to me. If you're gonna buy those bad Pistols at least buy ones that either light people on fire or shoot a hole of fire.

Are you suggesting that plasma is unlikely to set people on fire?

Why are all those CTs in the main codex, when all of the respective chapters get covered by a supplement book? Seems like a waste of space to me.

 Darnok wrote:
Why are all those CTs in the main codex, when all of the respective chapters get covered by a supplement book? Seems like a waste of space to me.

So that you don't really need to supplement to play the faction. You'll miss out on more as SW / BA / DW / DA, but you can still run an army if you want.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
Why are all those CTs in the main codex, when all of the respective chapters get covered by a supplement book? Seems like a waste of space to me.

So that you don't really need to supplement to play the faction. You'll miss out on more as SW / BA / DW / DA, but you can still run an army if you want.

yeah, you absolutely can run a marine army in the current book, without the supplement. you lose out on stuff no doubt about it but you can do it

 Blackie wrote:


Who is 100% close combat focussed though? Sisters will do fine because they just need 2 HQs to work and there's a shiny new character from Pariah. Heck even 1 could do if the player doesn't want the third FA and/or HS.

Our shiny new pariah character has no order (again), is from OoML (again) has to carry around an emo elf for no reason and has grossly overinflated points that shes not even remotely worth fielding for someone whos weaker than a melee cannoness who only brings into play an unstoppable smite.

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Who is 100% close combat focussed though? Sisters will do fine because they just need 2 HQs to work and there's a shiny new character from Pariah. Heck even 1 could do if the player doesn't want the third FA and/or HS.

Our shiny new pariah character has no order (again), is from OoML (again) has to carry around an emo elf for no reason and has grossly overinflated points that shes not even remotely worth fielding for someone whos weaker than a melee cannoness who only brings into play an unstoppable smite.

ok first of all, sisters of battle ALREADY HAVE limits on HQs per detachment. or am I the only one who remembers the missionary?

Secondly, remember they previewed an upcoming sisters HQ, the Palatine, whom is basicly going to be to the cannoness what the lt is to a SM captain. Now rememebr these HQ limits are only occuring as armeis get new codices. So by time SOBs get their next codex (assuming they get a new one anytime soon and the HQ isn't just released by itself or as part of a campaign book) sisters will have the following HQ choices.
Canoness, Palintine, Missionary, Inqusitor, Celestine, Stern.
that's eneugh to fill 3 slots easily eneugh.

so does this mean the supplaments no longer apply ?

 Argive wrote:
so does this mean the supplaments no longer apply ?

No, they do. They're just folding all the other chapters into this book now and those chapters will get their own supplement.

None of the models in the current supplements are listed in the table of contents, either.

I suspect BTW this means another drawn out marine release :(

It is going to be funny, if supplement ultramarines comes out before the SW or DA one.

Why? Do you mean because of the unique units which might not be present in the new Codex?

If yes, then I don't see a problem for casual play. We have the points, we have rules. Nobody should have a problem with a SW player bringing Thunderwolves and such, even if they don't show up in the main Codex and the supplement has not been released, yet.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Why? Do you mean because of the unique units which might not be present in the new Codex?

If yes, then I don't see a problem for casual play. We have the points, we have rules. Nobody should have a problem with a SW player bringing Thunderwolves and such, even if they don't show up in the main Codex and the supplement has not been released, yet.

Our local group has always treated the marine codexes as 1. It never broke anything either, I don't know why they didn't just say as long as you have the keyword astartes, you can use me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
It is going to be funny, if supplement ultramarines comes out before the SW or DA one.

Supplement Ultramarines is already out. It was the first one last year. The recent Marine supplements aren't being redone, they're fully compatible with the new edition of the game.