The indomitus necron warriors the lowliest of the necron armies now stand taller than immortals and lychguard. This is getting ridiculous do we actually need this scale creep that means old models have to be assigned to the dustbin? At what point does it stop. When we are at 100mm scale? When marines are action figure size. Scale creep is only there to obsolete old models this is meant to be a miniatures game GW not action man. Stop inflicting this horrendous scale creep on our armies. It's making units unplayable and making armies peopled by giants ala severina raine the 9 foot commisar.
Moriarty wrote: A Commissar with nine feet? MUTANT! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
But seriously, don’t sweat the scale creep. I use RT minis and they still work just fine :-)
Same here, I'm looking at my original beakies right now.
Do people not realize that even tho the minis are 28mm scale, it does not mean that are in the same scale in relation to each other. Its Gw, scale is more of a suggestion more than anything. Hell take a look at a tactical marine, then convince me that 12 of them fit inside a rhino.
It is fun that while the scale increases the tables also get smaller. The worst offenders in my oppinion are characters. Like what is the deal with abbadon and guillyguy? They are massive...
I'm actually okay with the new look of the Warriors compared to the Lychguard. It makes the warriors look like the big, dumb tall brutes. Where as the Lychguard look more regal and as though smaller, they still command more capacity to think.
All new models getting rescaled to fit properly with Primaris size is the best thing that could have happened.
Warhammer was always using "heroic scale" where limbs and heads were not properly proportional to the rest of the body and each other. Just look at the classic Marines. As much as I love these iconic models, Primaris properties just look better.
(Slightly) bigger models allow for more detailed models more easily.
Nobody is forced to buy redone units if they already have the old one and no army becomes unplayable.
OP is just writing hyperbole, lies and doomsaying as with every other single post of his.
Comparing the old and the new warriors they look like they're actually very similar in size it's just that the old warriors are more hunched over while the newer ones stand straighter. Side by side they look fine and compared to Immortals or Lychguard the new warriors are clearly less bulky and overall less imposing even if they are a tiny bit taller overall. Given how dated the old warriors look the new ones are a vast improvement.
No idea why this means we should throw old models out. (That's a lie, I know full well it's so the OP can go off on another hyperbolic rant.) I still have Space Marines from 2nd edition and they look fine next to my Space Marine models from every edition from 2-8. The Deathwatch models are modelled in a more upright pose, just like the Necron warriors, and they look fine with equipment from 2nd edition models as well.
GW makes bigger and prettier models with more details and better poses who are closer to what we would normally see as anatomically correct and it's a terrible thing.
Icegoat wrote: The indomitus necron warriors the lowliest of the necron armies now stand taller than immortals and lychguard. This is getting ridiculous do we actually need this scale creep that means old models have to be assigned to the dustbin? At what point does it stop. When we are at 100mm scale? When marines are action figure size. Scale creep is only there to obsolete old models this is meant to be a miniatures game GW not action man. Stop inflicting this horrendous scale creep on our armies. It's making units unplayable and making armies peopled by giants ala severina raine the 9 foot commisar.
It's a money grab aimed at people like you who'll throw out perfectly fine models every few years.
The thing is OP, if you'd just have complained about how geedubs actually invalidates stuff, that is, using bad rules and irrational points values, you'd probably have everyone agreeing with you, but as it stands, you chose to attack the one thing that most people seem agree is great.
Gitdakka wrote: It is fun that while the scale increases the tables also get smaller. The worst offenders in my oppinion are characters. Like what is the deal with abbadon and guillyguy? They are massive...
its an infection thats crept in from video games, MMOs being the biggest culprit where humaniod boss monsters are usually far bigger than the grunt, although the eldar command chain seems connected to whoever stands on the nicest scenic bit is boss rather the physical bulk
Gitdakka wrote: It is fun that while the scale increases the tables also get smaller. The worst offenders in my oppinion are characters. Like what is the deal with abbadon and guillyguy? They are massive...
its an infection thats crept in from video games, MMOs being the biggest culprit where humaniod boss monsters are usually far bigger than the grunt, although the eldar command chain seems connected to whoever stands on the nicest scenic bit is boss rather the physical bulk
For the latest Drukhari stuff it's a bit of both. The Incubi are slightly larger than Kabalites (as I suppose they should be), but are alos on 28mm bases rather than 25mm.
Drazhar is about the same size as the Incubi, but (as you suggested) is standing on a large piece of Parthenon. He also has a rather massive hat, which might signal a return to 'tradtional Eldar values' where a huge hat meant you were important.
GW makes bigger and prettier models with more details and better poses who are closer to what we would normally see as anatomically correct and it's a terrible thing.
DAMN YOU GW!!!!
I mean, scale creep is a legitimate concern from a gameplay standpoint. A Marine army on all 25mm bases has a much smaller footprint than one on a mix of 32mm and 40mm.
There are also a number of models that have just been bumped up to larger base sizes without getting new sculpts at all, like Ork Boyz.
GW makes bigger and prettier models with more details and better poses who are closer to what we would normally see as anatomically correct and it's a terrible thing.
DAMN YOU GW!!!!
Prettier is an entirely subjective thing. IMHO any primaris miniature is flatout uglier than any classic SM one. And I'm not a fan of SM models either. The fact that they are bigger than older power armor dudes make it worse but it's not the main cause about why I strongly dislike those models.
Scale creep for that kind of infantry models isn't a big issue. It is when a hero that is supposed to be as big as a regular infantry model is actually 4x taller and 300% more fragile because it's supposed to make use of her wings. I'm referring on Celestine by the way. Just have a look at some of the new necrons, especially the diorama one. Miniatures like that one may be good as a fancy piece of furniture but they are a pure nightmare to transport and play with, and I'll never buy models like those ones.
Moriarty wrote: A Commissar with nine feet? MUTANT! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
But seriously, don’t sweat the scale creep. I use RT minis and they still work just fine :-)
Same here, I'm looking at my original beakies right now.
Do people not realize that even tho the minis are 28mm scale, it does not mean that are in the same scale in relation to each other. Its Gw, scale is more of a suggestion more than anything. Hell take a look at a tactical marine, then convince me that 12 of them fit inside a rhino.
Historically vehicles were at a different scale so it wouldn't take two turns to walk around them. They're all about half as big as they should be.
GW makes bigger and prettier models with more details and better poses who are closer to what we would normally see as anatomically correct and it's a terrible thing.
DAMN YOU GW!!!!
I mean, scale creep is a legitimate concern from a gameplay standpoint. A Marine army on all 25mm bases has a much smaller footprint than one on a mix of 32mm and 40mm.
There are also a number of models that have just been bumped up to larger base sizes without getting new sculpts at all, like Ork Boyz.
While true, GW seems to be employing it to bring things more in scale with each other, give things more natural proportions and generally increase the detail on the models. They're not just making things bigger every release arbitrarily.
GW makes bigger and prettier models with more details and better poses who are closer to what we would normally see as anatomically correct and it's a terrible thing.
DAMN YOU GW!!!!
Not everyone wants to rebuy or can afford to rebuy, their whole army. Plus it seems kind of a strange that everything gets scaled up. Primaris were explained to be bigger then marine through lore, but there is no explanation why a SoB is taller then a classic marine now. What is the sense in updating marine size, if everyone gets bigger.
And lets no go in to anatomicaly correct with w40k world, because half the stuff in it should not be anatomicaly correct, and stuff that should like IG or SoB does not look it often enough to consider everyone in the setting some sort of mutant.
Yeah, theres no actual scale creep. It has not existed in 20 years. Primaris are not scale creep, are a scale change. GW has been consistent with everything else. Genestealer cultists, Skitarii, sisters, normal humans all are the same size.
GW makes bigger and prettier models with more details and better poses who are closer to what we would normally see as anatomically correct and it's a terrible thing.
DAMN YOU GW!!!!
Not everyone wants to rebuy or can afford to rebuy, their whole army. Plus it seems kind of a strange that everything gets scaled up. Primaris were explained to be bigger then marine through lore, but there is no explanation why a SoB is taller then a classic marine now. What is the sense in updating marine size, if everyone gets bigger.
And lets no go in to anatomicaly correct with w40k world, because half the stuff in it should not be anatomicaly correct, and stuff that should like IG or SoB does not look it often enough to consider everyone in the setting some sort of mutant.
Probably because if you make models bigger you can fit more detail on them?
That seems to be the general sort of idea. Also, not everything has been scaled up. If you put a Cadian next to a Genestealer Cultist, for example, the cadian is way bigger, the GSC just has anything close to resembling a human body in terms of scale, while the cadian looks like you went into an old PS2 shooter and enabled "big heads mode"
GW makes bigger and prettier models with more details and better poses who are closer to what we would normally see as anatomically correct and it's a terrible thing.
DAMN YOU GW!!!!
Prettier is an entirely subjective thing. IMHO any primaris miniature is flatout uglier than any classic SM one. And I'm not a fan of SM models either. The fact that they are bigger than older power armor dudes make it worse but it's not the main cause about why I strongly dislike those models.
Scale creep for that kind of infantry models isn't a big issue. It is when a hero that is supposed to be as big as a regular infantry model is actually 4x taller and 300% more fragile because it's supposed to make use of her wings. I'm referring on Celestine by the way. Just have a look at some of the new necrons, especially the diorama one. Miniatures like that one may be good as a fancy piece of furniture but they are a pure nightmare to transport and play with, and I'll never buy models like those ones.
Celestine is pretty durable. I transport mine to games weekly and she's not required any fixes yet. The actual model is very light and the scrolls supporting her are quite thick.
The new Necron diorama is supported by thick rods of plastic in multiple places. He'll be no more difficult to transport or play with than a Rhino.
This is an old warrior next to a new warrior. I'm not seeing it. Is this a 25mm vs 32mm thing again?
It's an Icegoat wants to whine about something thing.
Kind of makes me feel like Dakka needs a "poster does absolutely nothing that ever contributes to anything, seems simply to exist to try and morosely flail, maybe we ought to put him out of his misery" rule.
Kind of like that "dalymiddleboro" dude who seems to exist solely to post threads like
Gitdakka wrote: It is fun that while the scale increases the tables also get smaller. The worst offenders in my oppinion are characters. Like what is the deal with abbadon and guillyguy? They are massive...
its an infection thats crept in from video games, MMOs being the biggest culprit where humaniod boss monsters are usually far bigger than the grunt, although the eldar command chain seems connected to whoever stands on the nicest scenic bit is boss rather the physical bulk
Boss size serves a legitimate purpose in many video games, especially MMO's. While you can have player-sized bosses in smaller content (1-5 players) without too many issues, you can't really do it in content which is meant for 20, or even 40, players. But at the same time it's not really reasonable to rule out all humanoid races as bosses. So the solution is to scale them up to where they won't get lost "in the crowd" of players while also having hit boxes large enough to facilitate mechanics.
Similar logic (sans player count) is at the heart of many up-sized bosses for single player games. Dark Souls wouldn't be a functional game with smaller boss models as it would would require every move to either have gigantic sparking lights to telegraph it or else just be unreadable in most situations.
Gitdakka wrote: It is fun that while the scale increases the tables also get smaller. The worst offenders in my oppinion are characters. Like what is the deal with abbadon and guillyguy? They are massive...
its an infection thats crept in from video games, MMOs being the biggest culprit where humaniod boss monsters are usually far bigger than the grunt, although the eldar command chain seems connected to whoever stands on the nicest scenic bit is boss rather the physical bulk
Boss size serves a legitimate purpose in many video games, especially MMO's. While you can have player-sized bosses in smaller content (1-5 players) without too many issues, you can't really do it in content which is meant for 20, or even 40, players. But at the same time it's not really reasonable to rule out all humanoid races as bosses. So the solution is to scale them up to where they won't get lost "in the crowd" of players while also having hit boxes large enough to facilitate mechanics.
Similar logic (sans player count) is at the heart of many up-sized bosses for single player games. Dark Souls wouldn't be a functional game with smaller boss models as it would would require every move to either have gigantic sparking lights to telegraph it or else just be unreadable in most situations.
To add to this, bigger things also tend to look more important, meaning GW can inform you through visual language the importance of something based on the height and size of the model as well as the base itself. This is why they having character models stand on something.
the_scotsman 790434 10880681 wrote:
Probably because if you make models bigger you can fit more detail on them?
That seems to be the general sort of idea. Also, not everything has been scaled up. If you put a Cadian next to a Genestealer Cultist, for example, the cadian is way bigger, the GSC just has anything close to resembling a human body in terms of scale, while the cadian looks like you went into an old PS2 shooter and enabled "big heads mode"
Could be, GSC really do have nice looking models. But on the other side of the coin are the new SoB. Even primaris suffer from it. I actualy like how clean the rank and file and the older primaris look like, with maybe the exeption of the fat flyer dudes. The new stuff gets overloaded with unneeded details and stange design choices, which end with people being force to do head swamps. I is kind of a funny how people started looking for DW knights heads, just to replace the attrocious head thing the hour glass dude has.
the_scotsman 790434 10880681 wrote:
Probably because if you make models bigger you can fit more detail on them?
That seems to be the general sort of idea. Also, not everything has been scaled up. If you put a Cadian next to a Genestealer Cultist, for example, the cadian is way bigger, the GSC just has anything close to resembling a human body in terms of scale, while the cadian looks like you went into an old PS2 shooter and enabled "big heads mode"
Could be, GSC really do have nice looking models. But on the other side of the coin are the new SoB. Even primaris suffer from it. I actualy like how clean the rank and file and the older primaris look like, with maybe the exeption of the fat flyer dudes. The new stuff gets overloaded with unneeded details and stange design choices, which end with people being force to do head swamps. I is kind of a funny how people started looking for DW knights heads, just to replace the attrocious head thing the hour glass dude has.
The new Sisters of Battle are in scale with the other human models made in the last decade. Their old models were last updated in 1998 and were in scale for the humans at that time, but things changed since then and they aren't using a heroic scale as much as they used to.
And just because you don't like a given detail on a model, it doesn't make that model bad. 40k has always had a lot of very subjective taste to things.
the_scotsman 790434 10880681 wrote:
Probably because if you make models bigger you can fit more detail on them?
That seems to be the general sort of idea. Also, not everything has been scaled up. If you put a Cadian next to a Genestealer Cultist, for example, the cadian is way bigger, the GSC just has anything close to resembling a human body in terms of scale, while the cadian looks like you went into an old PS2 shooter and enabled "big heads mode"
Could be, GSC really do have nice looking models. But on the other side of the coin are the new SoB. Even primaris suffer from it. I actualy like how clean the rank and file and the older primaris look like, with maybe the exeption of the fat flyer dudes. The new stuff gets overloaded with unneeded details and stange design choices, which end with people being force to do head swamps. I is kind of a funny how people started looking for DW knights heads, just to replace the attrocious head thing the hour glass dude has.
Eh, original wave primaris also had Reivers, still IMO the cringiest primaris unit, though the judicar definitely contests for that title.
I don't see the new SOB as particularly crazy on the scale front. I feel like a lot of people were either doing the 25mm vs 32mm thing again (Those bases have a pretty noticeable difference in height, so placing a model on a 25mm next to a model on a 32mm the model on the 32 almost always looks almost a head taller) or they were even worse comparing to that "limited edition" sister who was basically standing on a miniature cathedral.
I played my GSC vs my buddys sisters, and it's pretty clear that just...power armor makes you slightly bigger. That's all it is. The Repentia were basically the size of my Neophytes, just posed doing more sweet flips and jumps, and sisters were slightly taller than that, and slightly taller than the repentia.
The size comparisons between SOB and marines where the marines are smaller ignores that the 5th ed era marines were always small. It was always a complaint about those models. They were smaller than helmeted cadians, or standing up straight necrons. The new sisters are smaller than (for example) my newer deathwatch or thousand sons marines, or the new CSM.
chaos0xomega wrote:Necrons aren't Orks, status isn't determined by size/height
The Imperium says otherwise:
Spoiler:
More seriously, in visual language making something look bigger tells our subconcious that something is more important based on how big it looks. Making a model look taller by putting it on a taller base serves the same purpose.
Amishprn86 wrote:As a painter, player, and hobbyist, i like the larger models.
Galas wrote: Yeah, theres no actual scale creep. It has not existed in 20 years.
We can discuss how much it really matters, but there absolutely has been a gradual increase in the size of models. Put a plastic Cadian next to any of the old pewter regiments. Put a current plastic Terminator next to their 2nd Ed counterparts. Put a current Chaos Marine next to the previous plastics. The whole reason old Marines were seen as too squat/short and in need of truescaling is because the scale of regular humans crept up to their size- next to the old pewter Guardsmen or any of the Forge World regiments, Firstborn Marines look just fine. I can probably scare up some photos of all these comparisons if you don't believe me.
The weirdest thing and someone already pointed it out was primaris were meant to bigger so great the primaris are bigger that was in scale. Then every release since then every enemy and every ally has been a lot bigger than before meaning the primaris have completely lost their height advantage. I'm just waiting for the new imperial guard box when that come whoo boy we are going to be having same height male and female troops that are eye level with a primaris captain I can just tell its coming. It's getting real old and needs to stop at some point. By the time the new imperial guard is released gsc and sob are going to go back to midget sized. Gurantee.
Icegoat wrote: The weirdest thing and someone already pointed it out was primaris were meant to bigger so great the primaris are bigger that was in scale. Then every release since then every enemy and every ally has been a lot bigger than before meaning the primaris have completely lost their height advantage. I'm just waiting for the new imperial guard box when that come whoo boy we are going to be having same height male and female troops that are eye level with a primaris captain I can just tell its coming. It's getting real old and needs to stop at some point. By the time the new imperial guard is released gsc and sob are going to go back to midget sized. Gurantee.
You might need to get your eyes checked, as well as your lore. Primaris in the lore are only a -little- bigger than a normal Marine.
And none of the human models, new or old, are the same size as the Primaris.
Why do people always post 20 year old models when using these scale pics? Who are they defending? Last imperial guard human gw released was primaris sized.
Scale creep it's real its squats entire armies and causes old models to become useless if your using old beakies as primaris well whatever good luck in a tournament or playing anyone with two working eyes.
He's a powerful psyker, sure, but just a regular born (if immortal) human beyond that.
Because like Magnus he seems to be able to control his size, and does it to inspire fear and awe into the common populace.
That is hilariously stupid. I never knew that. Thank you for brightening my day slightly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Icegoat wrote: Why do people always post 20 year old models when using these scale pics? Who are they defending? Last imperial guard human gw released was primaris sized.
Scale creep it's real its squats entire armies and causes old models to become useless if your using old beakies as primaris well whatever good luck in a tournament or playing anyone with two working eyes.
What? That model who's standing on a rock and wearing a HUGE fething HAT that still comes up to the primaris marine's shoulder in the picture is primaris sized?
LOL.
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Icegoat wrote: we are going to be having same height male and female troops .
Psssssst.
Just pointing out here.
^this is the only thing people are really getting mad about here.
This is why Severina Raine (standing on a rock, wearing a huge hat) Inquisitor Greyfax (wearing a huge hat) and the limited edition sister (standing on a mini-cathedral) are always the ones brought up as Scale Creepin On Muh Spass Marines and not, I dunno, the new abbadon miniature who's the size of two space marines in a trenchcoat trying to get into an R-Rated Repulsor.
Icegoat wrote: Why do people always post 20 year old models when using these scale pics? Who are they defending? Last imperial guard human gw released was primaris sized.
Scale creep it's real its squats entire armies and causes old models to become useless if your using old beakies as primaris well whatever good luck in a tournament or playing anyone with two working eyes.
You're counting the top of her hat as the top of her head.
And if you look at the image I used, it had Blackstone Fortress models in the mix, along with GSC.
The comparison picture isn't ideal (since both models are in different, rather awkward poses), but the new Necron Warriors don't seem markedly bigger than the old ones.
That being said, there absolutely has been scale-creep elsewhere and I can't say I'm a fan of it. Not least because I'm a fan of the idea that the leader (or the most powerful/dangerous opponent) isn't necessarily the largest or the most physically intimidating. It makes sense for the largest Ork to be the one in charge, but I don't see why this should also apply to Eldar, DE, Necrons etc..
As for the idea that large models allow for more details, I have to disagree on two fronts. Firstly, there are a number of models that should outright disprove the idea that small models put a strict limit on the level of detail a model can have. For example, DE Mandrakes are one of the smallest models in the range (I believe at least partially because they don't have armour), yet they are actually far more detailed than many larger models.
The second point is that 'more detail' isn't always an improvement. If anything, there seems to be a trend of 'detail for the sake of detail'. As in, GW will frequently add a pile of unnecessary crap to a model in order to make it "more detailed". Hence why Drazhar, practically a living-weapon who exists only to kill, is now decked out with more colour and bling than a coral reef at a glitter party. Maybe some people prefer this, but I tend to fall in the camp of 'less is more'.
Icegoat wrote: The weirdest thing and someone already pointed it out was primaris were meant to bigger so great the primaris are bigger that was in scale. Then every release since then every enemy and every ally has been a lot bigger than before meaning the primaris have completely lost their height advantage. I'm just waiting for the new imperial guard box when that come whoo boy we are going to be having same height male and female troops that are eye level with a primaris captain I can just tell its coming. It's getting real old and needs to stop at some point. By the time the new imperial guard is released gsc and sob are going to go back to midget sized. Gurantee.
You might need to get your eyes checked, as well as your lore. Primaris in the lore are only a -little- bigger than a normal Marine.
And none of the human models, new or old, are the same size as the Primaris.
Spoiler:
This is actually a very nice comparison. Though the Primaris is standing on a rock so even him is not actually that much bigger than the others.
This is why Severina Raine (standing on a rock, wearing a huge hat) Inquisitor Greyfax (wearing a huge hat) and the limited edition sister (standing on a mini-cathedral) are always the ones brought up as Scale Creepin On Muh Spass Marines and not, I dunno, the new abbadon miniature who's the size of two space marines in a trenchcoat trying to get into an R-Rated Repulsor.
If this were reddit, I'd be giving you gold or something for this comment.
Scale creep doesn’t obsolete models. It may make you want to replace your current models, but it doesn’t make them invalid to play with. GW got me to purchase new Sisters of Battle, but that was due more to the improved quality of the sculpts than the size.
People who complain about scale creep are the same a rivet counters in scale model communities
Complaining about small, tiny minutia, that when you are five feet away from the model on a table, will barely be noticed.
hotsauceman1 wrote: People who complain about scale creep are the same a rivet counters in scale model communities
Complaining about small, tiny minutia, that when you are five feet away from the model on a table, will barely be noticed.
The Redemptor Dreadnought is obviously bigger than the Boxnaught from pretty much any distance, and Primaris vs. Classics are markedly different sizes at at least 6 ft. Likewise the new Bikes.
In one of the more recent podcasts about the admech range, I think the designers said that the sktarii were a new redefining of the 40k baseline human scale, and most everything after was to be made according to their size.
I suppose that kinda fits, it's not too hard to modify old marines to be a millimeter or two taller so they are noticeably bigger than humans. Now if only the rules fit too.
And besides, Necrons were always really big, even back in 2003 or whenever the warriors were released. They barely fit on 25mm bases. I mean, of all the mess-ups GW has made with Indomitus and 9th, this is a complete non-issue if not an outright positive.
@Insectum7 Abaddon is supposed to be the size of Horus, in fact I think the models are about the same height. I've never seen the two side by side though.
Eipi10 wrote: @Insectum7 Abaddon is supposed to be the size of Horus, in fact I think the models are about the same height. I've never seen the two side by side though.
So you're saying that FW made the model of Horus far too large as well? Interesting that both studios would accidentally release a 3-up instead of the correctly-sized model...
@Insectum7 Abaddon is supposed to be the size of Horus, in fact I think the models are about the same height. I've never seen the two side by side though.
Here is a Pewter guardsman next to a marine. I did not think the other comparision was complete as all the regular humans were post cadian/catachan plastics.
Of note is that gw scale is super inconsistent and loads of pewter dudes were bigger. An example would be colonel shaeffer, a head higher than most other guardsmen
I feel like new sisters are way bigger than old sisters. I agree with an earlier poster though who said that his desire to update his army was as much the look as the size.
I would feel awkward having a unit composed of both old and new models; I probably could have gotten my head around keeping my old stuff in one detachment and my new stuff in another, but I've recently decided to just update the whole army.
I certainly don't think it is done entirely to squat old models; I agree with what many have said already- if larger, they can be not only more detailed, but easier to assemble and paint. Differences in scale do exist, but as long as you don't mix units, they can still be used side by side. If you're a real stickler, you can keep them in separate detachments.
Funny story: I have an old metal Keeper of Secrets- not even the most recent metal. She is tiny compared to the modern, awesome, towering Keeper. I'd never get away with using her as a Keeper in a game against a stranger. I actually always recommend that I use her as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, because that's closer in size.
But I want to play a 25PL Crusade game, and the best match-up I can make right now includes that Keeper vs. my painted old sisters. It's a friendly game with my spouse, so it's not an issue.
a_typical_hero wrote: My point is: Do you think Primaris not being able to ride in an old transport has anything to do with their actual height?
The rules don't perfectly reflect what could happen in a "reality 40k".
The rules don't "perfectly reflect", but they generally "somewhat reflect". There's a balance between rules and presentation, generally, and if you stray too much from conventions things can break down. Terminators can't ride in Rhinos, Primaris look closer to Terminator size, maybe Primaris really can't squeeze in those Rhinos. Abaddon doesn't look like he could even make it through the assault ramp of the Land Raider. Not that models are necessarily scaled 1:1 with each other, but stray too far the suspension of disbelief comes apart.
Seriously, I'd rather build an Abaddon stand-in from a normal Chaos Terminator that take that ridiculous model. I'd get four free Terminators out of it, too.
PenitentJake wrote: I feel like new sisters are way bigger than old sisters. I agree with an earlier poster though who said that his desire to update his army was as much the look as the size.
I would feel awkward having a unit composed of both old and new models; I probably could have gotten my head around keeping my old stuff in one detachment and my new stuff in another, but I've recently decided to just update the whole army.
I certainly don't think it is done entirely to squat old models; I agree with what many have said already- if larger, they can be not only more detailed, but easier to assemble and paint. Differences in scale do exist, but as long as you don't mix units, they can still be used side by side. If you're a real stickler, you can keep them in separate detachments.
Funny story: I have an old metal Keeper of Secrets- not even the most recent metal. She is tiny compared to the modern, awesome, towering Keeper. I'd never get away with using her as a Keeper in a game against a stranger. I actually always recommend that I use her as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, because that's closer in size.
But I want to play a 25PL Crusade game, and the best match-up I can make right now includes that Keeper vs. my painted old sisters. It's a friendly game with my spouse, so it's not an issue.
I have no such qualms concerning model scale. Especially concerning Chaos. GW made it, it's good to go.
Like you, I've got an ages old greater demon. In my case it's a Bloodthirster from when I started in the RT/WHFB 3e days. On the base he was supplied with.
"Dinky" has killed hundreds of thousands of pts in the name of the Blood God over the decades. Hell, he's killed models that most players have never even seen except as blurry pics on a Google search. He will NEVER be demoted to mere "prince".
If my opponent has a problem playing against "Dinky"? Then I will accept their surrender.
Yep not seeing it. Immortal is taller. Not to mention bulkier. Height is very similar but not bigger than immortal
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PenitentJake wrote: I feel like new sisters are way bigger than old sisters. I agree with an earlier poster though who said that his desire to update his army was as much the look as the size.
Oh they are. About head. Hands etc about same size so old works on new and vice versa but def taller.
Honestly the only scale creep I've seen was from Pewter to plastic. Plastic just allows for larger models than pewter which in turn allows the designers more freedom with the design of the models.
Dysartes wrote:So you're saying that FW made the model of Horus far too large as well? Interesting that both studios would accidentally release a 3-up instead of the correctly-sized model...
No, I'm saying he's the correct height, they both are.
Insectum7 wrote:How many spaces does he take up in a Land Raider?
40k's transport rule have been borked since they got rid of a lot of unit keywords and modifiers.
Primaris don't. Abaddon is somehow both the size of a normal Terminator but also the size of a Primarch. Can Primarchs ride in Land Raiders?
In the 30k rules Primarchs are "Bulky" rather than "Very Bulky", which means they take up the space of a Terminator in a transport rather than that of a Bike and can, in fact, ride in Land Raiders.
Alpharius is the only one that can ride in a Rhino, though, and even then he can't stay in the Rhino after he's revealed his presence.
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ClockworkZion wrote: Honestly the only scale creep I've seen was from Pewter to plastic. Plastic just allows for larger models than pewter which in turn allows the designers more freedom with the design of the models.
It's been slow but present. Look at a 4e-vintage plastic Tactical Marine next to a Deathwatch Marine sometime.
Primaris don't. Abaddon is somehow both the size of a normal Terminator but also the size of a Primarch. Can Primarchs ride in Land Raiders?
In the 30k rules Primarchs are "Bulky" rather than "Very Bulky", which means they take up the space of a Terminator in a transport rather than that of a Bike and can, in fact, ride in Land Raiders.
Well Abaddon sure looks more the size of a bike than a Terminator, just sayin.
ClockworkZion wrote: Honestly the only scale creep I've seen was from Pewter to plastic. Plastic just allows for larger models than pewter which in turn allows the designers more freedom with the design of the models.
It's been slow but present. Look at a 4e-vintage plastic Tactical Marine next to a Deathwatch Marine sometime.
The Deathwatch models are the standouts. The 3rd ed plastics through the 7th Ed plastics are basically identical, the only difference is that a couple of the later sets of legs are in more upright poses. I think at least one set of legs is exactly the same from 3rd through the current kit.
Gitdakka wrote: Here is a Pewter guardsman next to a marine. I did not think the other comparision was complete as all the regular humans were post cadian/catachan plastics.
Of note is that gw scale is super inconsistent and loads of pewter dudes were bigger. An example would be colonel shaeffer, a head higher than most other guardsmen
Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.
Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?
Gitdakka wrote: Here is a Pewter guardsman next to a marine. I did not think the other comparision was complete as all the regular humans were post cadian/catachan plastics.
Of note is that gw scale is super inconsistent and loads of pewter dudes were bigger. An example would be colonel shaeffer, a head higher than most other guardsmen
Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.
Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?
I understand that the US is a mix of different races and people, but in countries where this is not the case people have general the same size and an respective age. Now this can mean that if you are danish or a masay you end up real tall, but comparing extrems hardly suit us here. Plus there are no healthy 7 or 8 feet tall humans, and even less whole populations of them. The pump all humans have has its limitations, after a certain size it doesn't matter how much muscle you have, it just isn't able to work properly. That is also why all people doing sports have to be careful, because you can just die from over working your heart when you are having a growth spurt.
Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.
Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?
But not many of us are taller than a 2m killing machine in power armour.
That being said, isn't " GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is" the literal definition of scale creep?
Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.
Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?
But not many of us are taller than a 2m killing machine in power armour.
That being said, isn't " GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is" the literal definition of scale creep?
"No the scale hasn't crept, we just changed it!"
That really depends on where you live. Where I grew up, I was seen as very short and am 180 cm tall, many of my male classmates easily were 2 m. So, yes, it can easily happen. People do vary quite a lot. Which is why I honestly don't care very much for scale in my (albeit mostly historical) armies. In fact, I like it when there is a bit of variety.
Yeah, as was said in the thread - it's been 25+ years since those old pewter 3rd ed sculpts. GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is - and they did it literally ages ago with the plastic cadians, which became basically the same height as the standard marines.
Also, you know that some people are a head taller than some other people, right? And that's just not a big deal, so utterly commonplace in the world that it'd be weirder if every single human were the same exact height?
But not many of us are taller than a 2m killing machine in power armour.
That being said, isn't " GW has changed the standard scale of what a human is" the literal definition of scale creep?
"No the scale hasn't crept, we just changed it!"
I mean sure, they've changed the scale of a human...since what, 3rd edition 20 odd years ago? A cadian is about the same size as a genestealer cultist (I've got them both in my army) and both of those are the same size as a skitarii, and those are about the same size as the new sisters.
The new sisters look super huge next to the old sisters because the old sisters are fething ANCIENT.
People talk about scale creep like it's some recent 8th edition thing. It's a massive moving of the goalposts if you define "scale creep" as "One scale increase that GW decided on 20 years ago and has slowly filtered through various armies as they gave them newer sculpts."
Showing the same couple of models who all seem purely coincidentally to be standing on rocks and wearing goddamn pope hats and screaming 'MUH SCALE CREEP IT BE CREEPIN' is not sufficient evidence.
Nor is lying, like it has been repeatedly proven the op just did when making this thread. There's a picture of a necron warrior next to an old warrior, and a picture of a new warrior next to an immortal, they are EXACTLY the same fething size.
Karol wrote: I understand that the US is a mix of different races and people, but in countries where this is not the case people have general the same size and an respective age.
Yeah but regiments and chapters usually recruit from all over a planet, not from a single country, so it's fine.
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How many of those would we accept in a miniature game? But people aren't all the same size in real life.
I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).
However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.
I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.
vipoid wrote: I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).
However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.
I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.
But it is specifically mentioned in the fluff than space marines vary in size like, a lot. Heck, theres not even two primarchs of the same height.
I mean, all complaints of biological realism go straight out the goddamn window when it comes to talking about the shonen anime that is the primarchs.
I just imagine the emperor in his secret biotech laboratory going
"Hmmm, and this one I shall craft as a werewolf. And this one as a giant hot topic guy. And this one as a big red man who can change size like fething voltron. And this one with angel wings, why not?"
Just fething throwing gene soup together in a vat like the opening of the power puff girls.
Genes! Spice! HEAVY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF! This is what little primarchs are made of!
And so The Emperor, having finished building the first 19 Primarch kits realises that he doesn't have enough full-size bits....and decides to make two littleuns instead.
vipoid wrote: I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).
However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.
I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.
But it is specifically mentioned in the fluff than space marines vary in size like, a lot. Heck, theres not even two primarchs of the same height.
I stand corrected then.
As I said, I hadn't read the fluff so I was just going off what seemed plausible for a race of super-soldiers.
Does each SM have differently sized power armour, or is it one-size-fits-all?
vipoid wrote: I can understand guardsmen coming in a variety of sizes and sizes (at least to an extent - given that it's a meat-grinder at the best of times, it's hard to imagine many physically small/weak people surviving for long enough to make it worth representing them as models ).
However, I have a harder time imaging Space Marines - who are the result of extensive biological modification - exhibiting a similar range of sizes. It seems far more likely that either only men of a specific size would be recruited in the first place, or else the modifications would be used to bring smaller/weaker people up to the level of the others.
I'm open to being corrected on the latter (as I'm not a SM player and so haven't waded this deep into their lore), but that would be my base assumption.
But it is specifically mentioned in the fluff than space marines vary in size like, a lot. Heck, theres not even two primarchs of the same height.
That's true. Buuut, the differences in size between models are often distinctly different between units and releases. Like every Marine who is sent to the Deathwatch happens to be 6" taller than your average marine, likewise for every Terminator.
I'm sure there is some slight variation I mean that's hardly a problem when its within individual units. Buts that not the problem the problem is every single new unit with a new sculpt is far larger bulkier and taller with usually a bigger base than whatever came before it. If people truly are using absolutely minuscule 1e minis as primaris i pity them and there opponents. It's an insult to the eyes.
On a fluff point, do you think size variance is a big problem when using power armour? I mean power armour is relatively rare and expensive right? Can you imagine spending years training as a neophyte, surviving the biological enhanchments and then during the final ritual the techmarine says "yeahh sorry we dont have your shoe size just yet. We ordered some new from mars but shipping is somewhat unreliable with the warpstorms and all....."
Or do they tailor forge each armour piece at the chapter houses or what? This must be excedingly annoying for terminator armour wich is basicly some rare ancient relics.
When a black templar gets his visions and then recieves the holiest of chapter relic armour prebattle and it's too small for this particular marine, what happens then?
Moriarty wrote: A Commissar with nine feet? MUTANT! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
But seriously, don’t sweat the scale creep. I use RT minis and they still work just fine :-)
Same here, I'm looking at my original beakies right now.
Do people not realize that even tho the minis are 28mm scale, it does not mean that are in the same scale in relation to each other. Its Gw, scale is more of a suggestion more than anything. Hell take a look at a tactical marine, then convince me that 12 of them fit inside a rhino.
Hell, try squeezing 40 Guardsmen into a Stormlord...
Kayback wrote: Wasn't on one of the... Space Wolf? Marines notably smaller than the others and it was a point worth mentioning. I can't recall which novel that was.
If that's the case then there may be some variation but it isn't common.
There was definitely one that was abnormally big - Haegr The Mountain, one of the Wolfblade that Ragnar served with on Terra.
Was it the one that had his body grow non stop, so he ate non stop? his power armour was made from part of badly damaged terminator armour, if I remember the wolf blade novel correctly.
It isnt scale creep its "some of our employees and customers are getting older, so we made things bigger because their eyesight is failing and they have trouble with fine motor skills".
Kayback wrote: Wasn't on one of the... Space Wolf? Marines notably smaller than the others and it was a point worth mentioning. I can't recall which novel that was.
If that's the case then there may be some variation but it isn't common.
There was definitely one that was abnormally big - Haegr The Mountain, one of the Wolfblade that Ragnar served with on Terra.
Kayback wrote: Wasn't on one of the... Space Wolf? Marines notably smaller than the others and it was a point worth mentioning. I can't recall which novel that was.
If that's the case then there may be some variation but it isn't common.
There was definitely one that was abnormally big - Haegr The Mountain, one of the Wolfblade that Ragnar served with on Terra.
Isn't Arjac Rockfist an unusually large dude too?
Ah. Aging memory. I was never big into Space Wolves lore.
Kayback wrote: Wasn't on one of the... Space Wolf? Marines notably smaller than the others and it was a point worth mentioning. I can't recall which novel that was.
If that's the case then there may be some variation but it isn't common.
There was definitely one that was abnormally big - Haegr The Mountain, one of the Wolfblade that Ragnar served with on Terra.
Isn't Arjac Rockfist an unusually large dude too?
Ah. Aging memory. I was never big into Space Wolves lore.
I mean, we're not saying there aren't unusually small Space Wolves characters as well, but Arjac is one that stands out for being a named SC in a few versions of the 'dex (and having a model).
Ranulf the Strong was an exeptionally large Space Wolf. He was described larger than Leman Russ and was depicted as about a head taller than a normal marine. This of course was before Primarchs were laughable giant freaks they're today.
I tried really really hard in the mirror but just couldn't get my armpits as high as my ears no matter what I did. That Ranulf isn't just strong, but flexible as well.
Oaka wrote: I tried really really hard in the mirror but just couldn't get my armpits as high as my ears no matter what I did. That Ranulf isn't just strong, but flexible as well.
You should try to do some jiu jitsu or wrestling. helps a lot of being more flexible.
just for comparison here are @ top is a MKIV marine boltgun & @ bottom is a new assault intercessor bolt pistol. GW went from 2016(MKIV kit) to 2020 (indomitus) and what was a decently sized gun on an Astartes went to "heavy" pistol on Primaris.
but then a RTB-01 bolter is tiny soo...
That's not proof or even an example of scale creep. Those pistols(as well as the pistols of the first Primaris Chaplain and the Primaris Apothecary) are the same size as the Bolt Carbines wielded by Primaris Infiltrators and Incursors(released well after the Chaplain and Apothecary), which are the same size as non-Primaris Boltguns. Absolver and Heavy Bolt Pistols are just massive in general.
Look at the bolters on Deathwatch Veterans. They're absolutely tiny, closer to the size of bolt pistols than bolters. Going by that metric, there'd be a size decrease.
As said above, I think it's more of a statement about how big the heavy and absolver bolt pistols are. The actual bolt pistols on Primaris models feel smaller than bolt pistols on older Marines.
As said above, I think it's more of a statement about how big the heavy and absolver bolt pistols are. The actual bolt pistols on Primaris models feel smaller than bolt pistols on older Marines.
yup, it was kinda a joke wrapped in an observation.
but just expanding on it top to bottom;
Assault Intercessor Plasma pistol
MKIV Plasma Pistol
Intercessor Bolt Pistol
Reiver Heavy Bolt Pistol
Astartes Bolt Pistol
Assault Intercessor Heavy Bolt Pistol
MKIV Boltgun
Reiver Assault Bolt Carbine
Primaris Stalker Bolt Rifle
dont have absolver in bits
I would like to add that the MkIV plasma is a good deal sleeker and smaller than the standard plasma pistol we see on Mk7 Marines. The Primaris plasma is a deal chunkier, but then, so is the "standard" one.
The Primaris BP looks pretty close to the standard BP, with a few casing differences and no banana mag.
This is an old warrior next to a new warrior. I'm not seeing it. Is this a 25mm vs 32mm thing again?
It's an Icegoat wants to whine about something thing.
Kind of makes me feel like Dakka needs a "poster does absolutely nothing that ever contributes to anything, seems simply to exist to try and morosely flail, maybe we ought to put him out of his misery" rule.
Kind of like that "dalymiddleboro" dude who seems to exist solely to post threads like
Post Title: "is Unit X competitive now"
Post body: "Title"
Every forum needs one, and they almost all have them. It’s almost interesting to think about the person behind the name- are they genuinely this worried? Convinced that they can see the future? Where does the delusion end and the trolling begin?
).
