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Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 21:19:15


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Welcome to the Imperial Guard 9th edition tactics thread. Get up to speed with the 9th Ed FAQs for greater good (heresy), imperial armor, and the IG Codex.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/dZub5FGKGGmigx3x.pdf

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/tgQpUPFPrrnFQieo.pdf

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/4HyM0d7ZsWf7vN1A.pdf

First impressions are 9th is a rude awakening for IG. No longer can we just sit in the back annihilating anyone dumb enough to poke their head up, we're gonna have to move up and get stuck in the old fashioned way. Expect whatever worked for you in 8th to either not work or require heavy tweaking. But we're the guard, it ain't the first time we've been on the backfoot and had to figure out a way to fight back, people are already hashing out ideas.

Remember, people are always quick to jump to conclusions when a new thing comes out. Get some games in, mull over ideas, try out stuff you normally wouldn't. We'll crack 9th soon enough.

Keep an eye out down here for landmarks where new discussion starts. I.e. new codex, chapter approved, new units, etc.

New rules for IG, namely 2+ Leman Russ armor save, Tank Commanders can order any vehicle now, and IG infantry orders reworked, link below

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 21:25:35


Post by: BlaxicanX


Respect for using their proper naming convention.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 22:12:18


Post by: Trickstick


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
No longer can we just sit in the back annihilating anyone dumb enough to poke their head up, we're gonna have to move up and get stuck in the old fashioned way.


I'm really happy about that, as I despise playing gunline. I much prefer sending hordes of Guardsmen and tanks forward, with adequate support from things like drop troops and artillery. With this focus on a mobility, do people think that Cadian may be seen far less? A pure Cadian army seems like a bad idea now. Maybe a second detachment as a firebase?

And speaking of second detachments, I think people should not be afraid of dropping 2-3cp on a useful set of second regiment traits. I'm still playing around with lists but a custom infantry brigade, backed up by an armour spearhead, has some potential.

We are really just at a point of throwing anything you can think of together to test, and see what sticks. A bit difficult with the current situation to get a wide base of testing opponents in though.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 22:28:31


Post by: Bobthehero


Aw. I enjoy gunlining on my Krieg list :(


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 22:35:11


Post by: Razerous


So I've been drawing a couple of conclusions.

I like catachan / gunnery expert ability to get us more shots. I love conquoror cannons and the wicked accuracy. DKOK troops seem like the perfect fit in 9th edition, massed cheap 5-man sqiads. Hellhounds were amazing and with the ability to keep shooting whilst in CC, still are! With smaller boards and the ability for +6" range, 30" range demolishers with the improved number of shots again seems like a really good deal... Tank commanders more generally, with the "Gunners, Kill on Sight" order are just slightly better than conqurors for another 5 heavy stubbers - But slots is ever the issue here. Oh and the final ramble is, don't forgot that relic battle cannon! On and tank aces! So much mechanised love

Mixing that all together puts me in a tough position, I want tank commanders and hellhounds for astra miliarum; troops and conquorors with DKOK. I'm also thinking scout sentinels, when combined with 8+ T7/8 vehicles, provide a really cheap source of T5 wounds which slightly better mobility, great for board control & to support your fragile infantry.

I have given up on fielding an allied BA detachment of scouts & smash captains (I hear on the grapevine you can only take 1 too!), so I've kind of given up on being able to field any real CC threat. But do we need one? Why try and win a fist fight, as long as you can just surive one and out shoot anything with a pulse (/reanimnation protocool).


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 22:44:02


Post by: BaconCatBug


Thoughts on Hellhounds? Given their 12"+16" = 28" Threat range (+D6" if you're Tallarn given their new doctrine, but I think the Catachan re-roll is better) and the fact they can Fire in Melee and are still T7, plus they explode half the time to inflict that final taste of the Emperors Justice. Plus the Heavy Flamer is the same cost as the Heavy Bolter now so even more Melee Goodness. For 125 points you have a effectively never degrading infantry shredder. Being S6 AP-1 means they hurt even non-Custodes elite infantry pretty hard.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 23:20:27


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Trickstick wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
No longer can we just sit in the back annihilating anyone dumb enough to poke their head up, we're gonna have to move up and get stuck in the old fashioned way.


I'm really happy about that, as I despise playing gunline. I much prefer sending hordes of Guardsmen and tanks forward, with adequate support from things like drop troops and artillery. With this focus on a mobility, do people think that Cadian may be seen far less? A pure Cadian army seems like a bad idea now. Maybe a second detachment as a firebase?

And speaking of second detachments, I think people should not be afraid of dropping 2-3cp on a useful set of second regiment traits. I'm still playing around with lists but a custom infantry brigade, backed up by an armour spearhead, has some potential.

We are really just at a point of throwing anything you can think of together to test, and see what sticks. A bit difficult with the current situation to get a wide base of testing opponents in though.

Honestly I've felt like the Cadian doctrine is a trap since the IG codex dropped in 8th, at least for new players. It's absolutely a powerful regiment, don't get me wrong. The problem is to use it to its fullest you have to sit still. An experienced player will be able to weight the pros and cons to movement, a new player will have a hard time giving up his rerolls.

It's why I recommend new players try other regiments starting out. Not because Cadian is bad, but because Cadian takes a lot of skill to use to its fullest. Best start with Catachan, where your benefits are always on, and learn from there.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 23:55:23


Post by: ph34r


Is it possible for me to have my ‘warlord’ just be a tank ace basilisk? and then just use -1cp to have a second tank ace basilisk?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/04 23:56:00


Post by: BaconCatBug


I agree that Catachan is the strongest regiment right now. S4 chaff and a higher average number of shots on random weapons is super good.

Catachan Basilisks supported by Harker are great at taking out anything without an Invul save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ph34r wrote:
Is it possible for me to have my ‘warlord’ just be a tank ace basilisk? and then just use -1cp to have a second tank ace basilisk?
As far as I can see, yes. You replace your warlord trait for a Tank Ace, then use the stratagem to give another model a Tank Ace (obviously you can't give the same model two aces, but you can give two Basilisks the Full Payload ace, for example).


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 00:11:07


Post by: Trickstick


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
Is it possible for me to have my ‘warlord’ just be a tank ace basilisk? and then just use -1cp to have a second tank ace basilisk?
As far as I can see, yes. You replace your warlord trait for a Tank Ace, then use the stratagem to give another model a Tank Ace (obviously you can't give the same model two aces, but you can give two Basilisks the Full Payload ace, for example).


Just remember that your warlord is still selected normally, they just lose their warlord trait to make a tank an ace.

Random DKOK thing I just saw: their russes can take hull mounted plasma cannons.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 14:25:49


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ Razerous: while I also think Death Korps is currently more competetive than in 8th I'm not really convinced we should dismiss 10 man squads so fast. In the end Blast weapons only get +1 (D3 weapons) / +0.5 (D6 weapons) average shots against them and there are not that much single D weapons that are not wasted on guardsmen.

Meanwhile the new morale rules are quite nice for larger units, that feel the single model lost before attrition less.

Also when you compare wounds needed to kill 5 grenadiers (35 points, sv 4+) and 7 guardsmen (sv 5+) you get:
10 vs. 10.5 at AP0
7.5 vs. 8.4 vs AP-1
6 vs. 7 vs. AP-2
So unless both are in cover, the same weight of guardsmen are a little tougher.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 14:32:22


Post by: Gnollu


Honestly I am going to try double detachment.
Infantry battalion with cover to save roll bonus as long as not advanced and 18'' rapid fire and spearhead with reroll number of shots and auto repair. LRBT in spearhead gets ObSec which may be crucial. E.g. elite infantry (reivers, bladeguard veterans) sits on objective. Advance with LRBT and use Crush Them to charge and steal objective. It can work


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 15:09:15


Post by: Trickstick


 Pyroalchi wrote:
...I'm not really convinced we should dismiss 10 man squads so fast.


I agree, ten man squads seem much better. You get far better order usage, whilst also having the increased endurance.

Gnollu wrote:
Honestly I am going to try double detachment.
Infantry battalion with cover to save roll bonus as long as not advanced and 18'' rapid fire and spearhead with reroll number of shots and auto repair. LRBT in spearhead gets ObSec which may be crucial. E.g. elite infantry (reivers, bladeguard veterans) sits on objective. Advance with LRBT and use Crush Them to charge and steal objective. It can work


The only problem that I have had with this is the 6 troop limit. It really does not seem enough, as I feel 90 Guardsmen is much more comfortable. A few ideas that I have had to get around this:

- Brigade for the infantry, although you have to take sentinels and mortars as a tax for it to work.
- Non-troop infantry like veterans, sws, and hws. They don't have obsec though, which hurts.
- Mech, although you are giving up the vehicle traits on the transports.
- Conscripts. I know they are a bit meh, but being able to pump up the infantry battalion could work. It really depends on just how bad blast ends up being.
- Sacrificing the 2 perfect detachments for 1 decent one. So you take a Disciplined Shooters and Gunnery Experts brigade and just put up with not having perfect traits for everything.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 15:31:16


Post by: Kcalehc


Even though the Tallarn Regimental Doctrine is not quite as good as it used to be, I think their Warlord trait might be more interesting now. Especially if most games are going to devolve into a massive brawl in the center for objectives. The ability to Fall Back and then charge may be pretty handy (and it says for all TALLARN units, so that's tanks/Sentinels too!) combined with GBitF to shoot as well for infantry - mostly as, if you're going to be in combat anyway, you might as well be the one charging to get a few hits in before your brave Guardsmen get killed.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 15:41:23


Post by: Gnollu


Yea Conscripts. Unfortunately blast can be a thing. I think because of that mortars will still be mandatory as they work perfectly fine with 5+ models, not like wyvern.

On the other hand combat attrition is much less deadly for them than old morale mechanic having ld 4


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 16:00:01


Post by: Trickstick


Something that is floating around is the new Invader ATV datasheet:

Spoiler:


The interesting bit is the change to multi-meltas being 2 shot (Edit: Also the extra damage changed to d6+2, instead of 2d6 pick highest). Does anyone else think that this may help justify their 25pt cost for the Guard? I can see a devildog getting some use out of 3-5 melta shots. Or a russ picking melta sponsons to overcome the drawbacks of plasma blasts in melee.

Standard caveats apply of course (may be misprint, may not transfer to other faction multi-meltas, etc).


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 16:06:46


Post by: Gnollu


Maybe? Remember that new storm shield rules apply only to new primaris so far, other storm shields were not given changes. We need to wait for codex :(


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 18:26:32


Post by: tneva82


 Trickstick wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
...I'm not really convinced we should dismiss 10 man squads so fast.


I agree, ten man squads seem much better. You get far better order usage, whilst also having the increased endurance.


2x5 is actually more durable than 10. Apart from blast you are less suspectible to losing guys to morale and opponent is more likely to overkill wasting shots. Killing 7 from 5 man squad results in 5 dead. From 10 results in 7 dead plus another 1-3 to morale(well morale doesn't affect krieg I think)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 18:40:47


Post by: MrMoustaffa


My only issues with krieg grenadier spam is you're going to be paying a lot of premiums to get those grenadiers. You're using a ton of troop slots to get 5 man teams, you're taking a regiment trait that isn't all that great, and if you really want to get the most out of your army you're probably running a different regiment for vehicles which means a higher cost in CP to run the army. I agree that in a vacuum the grenadiers are better, but I feel the opportunity cost to actually run them in an army may well not be worth it. Especially when you can use custom regiments to get guardsmen just as tough, if not as powerful in shooting. Not to mention that as it's FW, it's very likely to get changed before most people even finish their army. Remember we should be seeing 9th Ed FW books very soon, no telling what's going to change rules or points wise.

The biggest overall issue with infantry of all types is that with platoons gone, there's not a lot of great options for infantry spam. You're either forced to run a brigade and bring tax or take multiple batallions and pay CP. If you want to maximize efficiency of your infantry and vehicles you now also need to leave a detachment for the tanks so they can take better upgrades as well. It's a tough trade off. I think if you want to go Brigade you're best off with a regiment that has good abilities for the vehicles and infantry, Catachans and Cadians for example. If you're going split detachment, odds are you're doing custom regiments, as you'll have less CP to work with and need your units as efficient as possible without strategems.

I do wonder if the dumb idea I had in 8th of infantry/stormtroopers spam may have more merit in 9th. Lots of bodies with relatively cheap weapons backed up by a large chunk of deepstriking stormtroopers. Not sure if I'd go for longer Rapid Fire range or the better AP trait, I think it would depend on the foot regiment they're backing up. One option is Catachans for knockoff orks to be backed up by deepstriking pinpoint firepower and some outflanking SWS/CCS/Vets with Harker and a commander. The other option is hardcore gunline Cadians, and you're using the stormtroopers and outflankers to mop up and secure objectives. Both would do well to have Bullgryn and sentinel support most likely, perhaps even combined, since sentinels and Bullgryn have good synergy as far as profiles go.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 18:47:49


Post by: Razerous


 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Razerous: while I also think Death Korps is currently more competetive than in 8th I'm not really convinced we should dismiss 10 man squads so fast. In the end Blast weapons only get +1 (D3 weapons) / +0.5 (D6 weapons) average shots against them and there are not that much single D weapons that are not wasted on guardsmen.

Meanwhile the new morale rules are quite nice for larger units, that feel the single model lost before attrition less.

Also when you compare wounds needed to kill 5 grenadiers (35 points, sv 4+) and 7 guardsmen (sv 5+) you get:
10 vs. 10.5 at AP0
7.5 vs. 8.4 vs AP-1
6 vs. 7 vs. AP-2
So unless both are in cover, the same weight of guardsmen are a little tougher.
Fair point on the "Blast" weapon, the average change is low but there will not be any unlucky shots, so blast weapons are more reliable against 6+ sized squads, so will attract the firepower all the more.

As for the cost - the thing that made it a no brainer for me was the overall cost; to field 6 troops you spend 210 vs. 300pts. Another problem with 10-man squads is the lower chance for overkill. It's always felt clunky to fit infantry squads in..

Our infantry aren't great and our heavy lifting is done by the vehicles... I agree about mixing regiments but I'm spending my 3CP to get the best results from DKOK (Conqurors, Grenadiers) and AM (Gunnery, spotters, tank aces and delicious delicious hellhounds).


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 18:59:52


Post by: Maxzero


5 man squads are just too slot inefficient for me. You need so many troop slots just get enough troops together. Anything gained from slightly tougher troops is lost through having a higher Brigade tax.

IMO blast weapons are fairly overrated. Most supa marine armies rely on Bolt rifle (and its variants) for anti infantry tasks.

Heavy support slots are too tight already between Dreads, Eliminators or Eradicators to fit Whirlwinds in.

Just who is spamming blast weapons? The other IG armies?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 19:02:00


Post by: Arcanis161


So, for those of us not using Kreig, what's the consensus on what to bring? Hellhounds for sure, Leman Russes for firepower, possibly a Manticore or two for punch outside of line-of-sight, but anything else?

What about Scions versus Guardsmen? Which should be the focus for our objective grabbers?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 19:14:44


Post by: Razerous


Single scout sentienls.. think of them as biker units?



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/05 19:43:49


Post by: Pyroalchi


My collection is more or less 50:50 Tallarn and counts as DKOK.
On the Tallarn side I intend to switch the majority of hull weapons to flamers. If both Tauros are really gone from the index my various buggies will count as Scout Sentinels with flamers. I don't know when I will get a game but from a theoretical point of view that might be a way to make use of the new tallarn doctrine.

Also my Chimeras will now likely be Gryphonne Chimeras as they cost the same but can take AC for the same price as a heavy bolter.

I also plan on increasing my number of bullgryns, mostly because I like them but also because I think we should prepared for melee

On the DKOK side I intend to try a lot of Death Riders for the reasons mentioned in the old threat.
Also IF multimeltas really geh 2 shots: if I remember correctly the Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ can also take a hull MM. So a Demolisher with tripple melta might be worth a try



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/07 12:44:35


Post by: Razerous


How good are scout sentinels in this edition?

When combined with lots of tanks, they feel like a good source of slightly mobile wounds. Plus some good strategems for a 3-strong squad!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 03:58:34


Post by: MrMoustaffa


So a lot of my friends playing marines have been talking about transports being back in a big way. Have you guys seen this for IG? Their argument was the transports were good to just park on objectives in the middle and if you kill the transport you still need to kill the squad. While I can see it working for marines it seems a bit of a rough job for IG. My first glance at BS makes me feel chimeras are pretty overpriced near a 100pts, but I'm viewing them with an 8th Ed lense really.

I had considered Valkyries for dropping squads on objectives turn one, but you're really just sending the men to their doom given how hotly contested the midfield seems to be these days, and you need a 9" enemy free zone to drop them too.

I won't be able to play games for a good month at least at this rate due to work assignments so really I'm just theory crafting till I get home. Which sucks because the opening couple months of an edition are always a lot of fun as people try weird stuff out to see what works.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 05:21:34


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Remember scions have a fairly cheap MSU squad that they can uparm nicely, and vendettas in this edition look wildly useful -- the firewpower of a tank commander and the transport of a chimera with the first strike option for jump out and shoot/charge that only otherwise valkyries and drop pods get on turn 1. While in past we have used indirect fire to accomplish our goals, in the current edition, its a bit pricey and flyers are an alternative way to deliver firepower to the hidden foe.

(Yes, my scion army is adding 4 vendettas, losing 15 scion troop choices, and otherwise staying about the same.)

I will also try out the "each transport with 6 crusaders, 5 scions, and an officer" to see if that grabs objectives better. But I think tabling the enemy on turn 2 will NEVER go out of style.

Those things that consume fewest cp are precious to us now, as we are limited in what we get and we tend to want multiple detachments more than some armies. So manticores are in, basilisks less so, I think.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 08:07:54


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ non-flying transports:
One thing I'm considering there are Chimeras with 2 heavy flamers and track guards (EDIT: 100 points). It's basically like a mini Hellhound. My idea would be to deliver their cargo, than charge something that is not a CC beast. 2D6 heavy flamer shots into CC each round doesn't sound to bad and thanks to the track guards these things are either at 100% efficiency or dead. Also as Tallarn it could be funny that they can advance and fire so are really pretty fast.
And every AT gun firing at the Chimera does not fire at a Leman Russ.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 12:58:40


Post by: U02dah4


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So a lot of my friends playing marines have been talking about transports being back in a big way. Have you guys seen this for IG? Their argument was the transports were good to just park on objectives in the middle and if you kill the transport you still need to kill the squad. While I can see it working for marines it seems a bit of a rough job for IG. My first glance at BS makes me feel chimeras are pretty overpriced near a 100pts, but I'm viewing them with an 8th Ed lense really.

I had considered Valkyries for dropping squads on objectives turn one, but you're really just sending the men to their doom given how hotly contested the midfield seems to be these days, and you need a 9" enemy free zone to drop them too.

I won't be able to play games for a good month at least at this rate due to work assignments so really I'm just theory crafting till I get home. Which sucks because the opening couple months of an edition are always a lot of fun as people try weird stuff out to see what works.


Marines don't have the speed of guardsmen when getting to objectives and are worth more to protect. Stick 40-50 guard on each objective should be fine


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 15:56:51


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So a lot of my friends playing marines have been talking about transports being back in a big way. Have you guys seen this for IG? Their argument was the transports were good to just park on objectives in the middle and if you kill the transport you still need to kill the squad. While I can see it working for marines it seems a bit of a rough job for IG. My first glance at BS makes me feel chimeras are pretty overpriced near a 100pts, but I'm viewing them with an 8th Ed lense really.

I had considered Valkyries for dropping squads on objectives turn one, but you're really just sending the men to their doom given how hotly contested the midfield seems to be these days, and you need a 9" enemy free zone to drop them too.

I won't be able to play games for a good month at least at this rate due to work assignments so really I'm just theory crafting till I get home. Which sucks because the opening couple months of an edition are always a lot of fun as people try weird stuff out to see what works.


Here's my take on the problem:

Playing my Space Wolves, I definitely agree with the notion that for Space Marines [and probably Marine-like armies in general] transports are very desirable. The combination of being a dangerous vehicle-type target and having a squad of fairly resilient obsec guys to drop off makes them good.

However a Razorback with twinlas or assault cannons is a good weapons platform in it's own right. A Chimera is, with the best of wills, not.


So we'll have to see. I would be a bit worried running Chimera based guard that for all those points I've wound up with less infantry bodies and much less firepower to control the board and drive people off objectives.



Personally, I think Hellhounds and Punisher Tanks [well, non-blast Leman Russ Tanks in general] will be pretty good going forward, and maybe if the Multimelta buff goes out widely, the Devildog as well. A flame tank or non-blast Russ tank can rush up the board, burn people, and charge them if they're on an objective or something. Once in melee, it's effectively immune to anyone else who would want to shoot at it but will make mincemeat of whoever it's in with next turn, so they either have to fall back off the objective so they can shoot the tank, or let the tank be to kill them.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 17:01:08


Post by: Pyroalchi


Some weird thing I just noticed in the updated Power Levels: IG can still take Crusaders in units of up to ten, contrary to sisters that are limited to 6. I don't know if that is important but nice to know.
Especially since they don't take up slots if a priest is present so you could take 30 crusaders + a priest in a single elite
slot


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 17:07:28


Post by: Sterling191


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Personally, I think Hellhounds and Punisher Tanks [well, non-blast Leman Russ Tanks in general] will be pretty good going forward, and maybe if the Multimelta buff goes out widely, the Devildog as well. A flame tank or non-blast Russ tank can rush up the board, burn people, and charge them if they're on an objective or something. Once in melee, it's effectively immune to anyone else who would want to shoot at it but will make mincemeat of whoever it's in with next turn, so they either have to fall back off the objective so they can shoot the tank, or let the tank be to kill them.


Three Punisher TCs with nu-MM sponsons blitzkrieging is definitely going to see play if/when the MM changes go system-wide.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 17:47:22


Post by: MinscS2


A Chimera with 2x Heavy Flamers doesn't break the bank and is fairly dangerous, especially if playing Catachan.

It's probably better off used in an offensive role though, like going for the middle objectives, while a handful of infantrysquads secure the objectives in your own deployment zone.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 18:08:09


Post by: Pyroalchi


don't forget the track guards. They are only 5 points now and make the Flamerchimera (Flamere? Chimflamer?) undegradable.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 18:27:24


Post by: Razerous


Preword - before I wrote this post, I was against the idea of punisher TC's.. But looking at what they do, especially with the new MM's, its intriguing.

Sterling191 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Personally, I think Hellhounds and Punisher Tanks [well, non-blast Leman Russ Tanks in general] will be pretty good going forward, and maybe if the Multimelta buff goes out widely, the Devildog as well. A flame tank or non-blast Russ tank can rush up the board, burn people, and charge them if they're on an objective or something. Once in melee, it's effectively immune to anyone else who would want to shoot at it but will make mincemeat of whoever it's in with next turn, so they either have to fall back off the objective so they can shoot the tank, or let the tank be to kill them.


Three Punisher TCs with nu-MM sponsons blitzkrieging is definitely going to see play if/when the MM changes go system-wide.
What does a punisher with MM's actually do?

In melee a TC with a punisher & MM sponsons with orders & weapon expert;

MEQ: Main gun will do 8 MEQ wounds & the sponsons are likely to kill another 2 MEQ models (1-3W). That's 6-10 MEQ models, depending on wounds-per-model.

T7 3+ (Vehicle): The main gun will do 4 wounds, the sponsons will do 8-9 wounds.

What this means... The tank commander can reliably shoot off non-hardened units - That's good. But with a slow movement, you won't be in a position to dictate terms and you run the very real risk of getting tagged by a cheap throwaway unit.. or degraded by the previous melee phase to the point where you're already neutered.

I think that's the real risk. Having your 265pt+ vehicle tagged by much cheaper unit, denying you a shooting phase/s.

But... How much more useful is the demolisher cannon (or others), in terms of point saving and damage output against the turret weapon having zero output when stuck in melee.

It is an interesting conundrum. Personally I'm sticking with the idea to have my big tanks avoid being stuck in melee in the first place & synergising gunnery experts with demolishers & hellhounds (which love being close and personal!).


 Pyroalchi wrote:
don't forget the track guards. They are only 5 points now and make the Flamerchimera (Flamere? Chimflamer?) undegradable.
I think you'll find its leaf blower!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 18:44:36


Post by: Sterling191


Razerous wrote:

It is an interesting conundrum. Personally I'm sticking with the idea to have my big tanks avoid being stuck in melee in the first place & synergising gunnery experts with demolishers & hellhounds (which love being close and personal!).


Here's the thing, this loadout doesnt *require* you to charge. But that charge is a tool that it can use without sacrificing its output if deployed smartly. Its a mid to close range priority target that can use aggressive charges (and boosts from things like Tallarn orders) to get up close and personal in precisely the wrong places, while also supporting units like Hellhounds who also want to get (nearly) stuck in.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 19:14:55


Post by: Pyroalchi


Also depending on how common and effective infantry based meltaweapons become (looking at you, Eradicators) I think vehicles and especially non-blast tanks are well advised to charge those. If let's say a Punisher is confronted by a unit of Eradicators it's really worth it to charge, so that they cannot shoot him. Either they stay in CC and only shoot with pistols and fight with a weak melee or they fall back and cannot shoot at all.

If they are still in CC in the next IG turn firing all weapons at them is not really a waste of firepower, it's a 120 point unit after all. One that could well be killed by a Punisher + hull and sponson weapons.


Edit: I'm well aware that they can fall back to open up the Leman Russ to fire from their army, but if you manage to charge what the Space Marine player brought as anti tank, than it doesn't matter so much, does it?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 20:29:35


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Problem being, gaurd armor is really vulnerbale to a character in the second row holding a thunderhammer or similar, who then intervenes and changes all the maths.

I don't think melee with marines is a safe place ot hide.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/10 21:05:08


Post by: Razerous


I am now on the fence with the punisher / MM sponsons (the bigger better ones.. I mean they are 25pts each!)

But range is valuable, we can get 30"-48"-72" range weapons with ease.

Oh man... 40 shots . I both loved and hated rolling that many dice when I last tried.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 01:39:05


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Dukeofstuff wrote:
Problem being, gaurd armor is really vulnerbale to a character in the second row holding a thunderhammer or similar, who then intervenes and changes all the maths.

I don't think melee with marines is a safe place ot hide.

I definitely agree with this. I rarely had a tank just get tagged in 8th, if it was touched it was dead, especially against marines.

It's not the mainline squads obviously, but the characters. If our tanks had invulns or something, sure it could work, but as is you're just making the charge easier for the character. Especially since the tank is going to do zero damage on the charge, and you're waiting till your next turn to actually fight in a useful manner. That's two melee phases and a shooting phase the opponent has to deal with the tank. If anything you're helping him.

I can see it having uses in certain scenarios, but if I was going to charge stuff with tanks it'd be hellhounds, especially Artemis ones. That way win or lose on the charge, you're going to do some damage most likely, and they really scare characters off of getting piled in.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 01:45:01


Post by: Dukeofstuff


You clearly elaborated the point I had failed to adequately convey, thanks!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 05:44:49


Post by: Maxzero


 Pyroalchi wrote:
Some weird thing I just noticed in the updated Power Levels: IG can still take Crusaders in units of up to ten, contrary to sisters that are limited to 6. I don't know if that is important but nice to know.
Especially since they don't take up slots if a priest is present so you could take 30 crusaders + a priest in a single elite
slot


Just a single squad of 10 for 200 points makes an amazing Psychic Barrier target.

30 T3 wounds with a 2+ invul is a very decent objective holder. Can even heal themselves.

Can fight most basic troops in melee too.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 07:04:13


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ charging tanks: Your arguments against the idea convinced me, thanks. I'll file it under "very very situational".

@ Crusaders: Pardon me if this question is stupid because it was already adressed in some FAQ: but if we should still use the Astra Militarum datasheet for Crusaders as Dysartes mentioned and the PL values in the FAQ indicate, does that mean we still use the old acts of fate and Crusaders still take a seperate elite slot even when a Priest is present?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 07:15:48


Post by: tneva82


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
Problem being, gaurd armor is really vulnerbale to a character in the second row holding a thunderhammer or similar, who then intervenes and changes all the maths.

I don't think melee with marines is a safe place ot hide.

I definitely agree with this. I rarely had a tank just get tagged in 8th, if it was touched it was dead, especially against marines.

It's not the mainline squads obviously, but the characters. If our tanks had invulns or something, sure it could work, but as is you're just making the charge easier for the character. Especially since the tank is going to do zero damage on the charge, and you're waiting till your next turn to actually fight in a useful manner. That's two melee phases and a shooting phase the opponent has to deal with the tank. If anything you're helping him.

I can see it having uses in certain scenarios, but if I was going to charge stuff with tanks it'd be hellhounds, especially Artemis ones. That way win or lose on the charge, you're going to do some damage most likely, and they really scare characters off of getting piled in.


Prime use for charging would be those eradicators coming from strategic reserve. Those don't neccessarily have character bodyguard tagging alone being instead cheap suicide squad. Come in, pop something, if you get 2nd round bonus.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 08:57:50


Post by: Pyroalchi


One other thing I'm currently pondering over if it might be worth it: the Manticore Battery (175 points with missiles) is still there (in points as well as PL). As a reminder: it comes with 4 x D6 9/-3/dD6 missiles that it can fire all at once (contrary to the normal Manticore). Also now we can put these things into deep strike and they don't suffer -1 to hit for "moving" from DS any more.

Each battery causes 13.61 wounds to a T8 3+ target (10.89 if it has a 5++, 8.17 if it has a 4++)
With Catachan/Gunnery Experts that goes to 16.53/13.22/9.92 damage
It can also be increased by Harker/Yarrick or Stratagems like Overlapping fields of fire, or WL trait Old Grudges.

Sure they cannot do anything afterwards except standing in the way (which might still be useful), but one volley might very well buy back its points (two should reliably down a Banebladevariant that costs more)
Of course the normal Manticore can be buffed by Support Aces and Strategems etc. but it is not that easy to get all 4 shots out at full BS. And the Batteries are kind of "fire and forget"


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 10:59:05


Post by: Trickstick


As you said, manticores can take full payload. Plus you have to worry about FW stuff just getting crazy point increases, or disappearing.

I'm actually getting quite attached to a pair of full payload manticores. Was reading about the possible 3w terminators change earlier. If that becomes meta, then the manticores will just rip through them.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 11:03:43


Post by: BaconCatBug


Manticore batteries don't ignore LOS. Full Payload Codex Manticores though will be super juicy. I think it's going to be worth even taking two and spending a CP for another Tank Ace.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 11:49:02


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ FW units getting lost: the point that they really cared for giving it points as well as powerlevel in the last update might at least be an indication, that they will stay a while. The Gorgon heavy Transport had just came back on FW this year I think and was already left out.

Regarding full payload: while you are definitly right, my concern would be that such a Manticore is a huge fire magnet. So it will quite likely only get one Missile off at full BS before degrading and it is not givven that he can fire all over the game. Doing the corresponding math (against T8, 3+/T8, 3+, 5++/T8,3+,4++)
Full Payload Manticore damage per Missile:
BS4+: 4.67/4.67/3.5
BS5+: 3.11/3.11/2.33
BS6+: 1.56/1.56/1.17

Manticore Battery Damage per Missile:
3.40/2.72/2.04

As one migth already see the Manticore has to get of a certain number of shots before it is equal/better than the battery. As in: (let A be shots at BS4+, B at BS5+, C at BS6+ and D any additional shot)
Against T8, 3+: 3xA OR 2xA, 1xB, 1xD OR 1 x A, 3 x B OR 1xA, 1xB, 3 x C
Against T8, 3+, 5++: 2xA 1xD OR 1xA, 2xB OR 1xA, 1xB, 2xC OR 1xA, 4xC
Against T8, 3+, 4++: 3xA OR 2xA, 1xB OR 1xA, 2xB, 1xD OR 1xA, 1xB, 2xC
(I assume that it gets off at least one Missile at full BS)

=> so in any case the full payload Manticore has to be kept alive for at least 3 rounds while being a prime target. The Battery just has to drop, unload and then it doesn't matter anymore if it is killed. It also doesn't need a EDIT: tank ace trait for that


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 13:23:44


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Trickstick wrote:
As you said, manticores can take full payload. Plus you have to worry about FW stuff just getting crazy point increases, or disappearing.

I'm actually getting quite attached to a pair of full payload manticores. Was reading about the possible 3w terminators change earlier. If that becomes meta, then the manticores will just rip through them.

I'm assuming you mean one full payload manticore and one regular one? My understanding was you couldn't take the same ace twice, but I may be missing something there


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 14:31:18


Post by: BaconCatBug


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
As you said, manticores can take full payload. Plus you have to worry about FW stuff just getting crazy point increases, or disappearing.

I'm actually getting quite attached to a pair of full payload manticores. Was reading about the possible 3w terminators change earlier. If that becomes meta, then the manticores will just rip through them.

I'm assuming you mean one full payload manticore and one regular one? My understanding was you couldn't take the same ace twice, but I may be missing something there
Unlike WLT, you can take multiple of the same Tank Ace, but on different models.

You're still limited to a maximum of 2 though, 1 as the replacement for the WLT and 1 via the stratagem. "Named characters cannot be given a Tank Ace ability, and no model can have more than one Tank Ace ability." is the restriction.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 17:41:28


Post by: RegulusBlack


Can I strategic reserve a loaded up valkyrie, place it on the edge then use the drop chute trait to get the payload on the field, same turn?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 19:17:14


Post by: Razerous


What objective secured options do we have for Guard?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 19:22:20


Post by: Arcanis161


Razerous wrote:
What objective secured options do we have for Guard?


As far as I know, it's the same as last edition: Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Tempestus Scions Squads, and, when in a Spearhead Detachment, Leman Russ tanks (not Tank Commanders)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 21:34:36


Post by: BaconCatBug


Arcanis161 wrote:
Razerous wrote:
What objective secured options do we have for Guard?


As far as I know, it's the same as last edition: Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Tempestus Scions Squads, and, when in a Spearhead Detachment, Leman Russ tanks (not Tank Commanders)
Actually, Tank Commanders do get Obsec in Spearheads. All LEMAN RUSS units get it.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 22:34:14


Post by: Arcanis161


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Razerous wrote:
What objective secured options do we have for Guard?


As far as I know, it's the same as last edition: Conscripts, Infantry Squads, Tempestus Scions Squads, and, when in a Spearhead Detachment, Leman Russ tanks (not Tank Commanders)
Actually, Tank Commanders do get Obsec in Spearheads. All LEMAN RUSS units get it.


Oh. That could have won me some games last edition. Welp.

On other topics, as we're a CP hungry army, would it be worth bringing more than 1 detachment? Specifically, say I bring a Brigade of Wilderness Survivors and Gunnery Experts, would it be worth it to bring a Battalion of Scions to grab far away objectives or to reinforce contested objectives? Or is it better to invest somewhere else?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/11 23:19:31


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I do two detachments but I pick my units for lower cp cost baseline. In any case, there is one obsec trick only gaurd really gets that is worth remembering.
Obsec Secured Recipe (serves 20-30)
3 x 10 man gaurd squads
2 x cp points
2 astropaths
nearby cover .. place your objective with an eye to being able to claim +1 to saves.

1. Move 10 gaurdsmen into the area such that they invest the objective while being in cover.
2. Move 10 gaurdsmen more into the area such that they also blah blah.
3. -1 cp. Weld them into twenty gaurdsmen with a base save of 5+ .. 4+ in cover.
4. nightshroud
5. aegis of the emperor.
6. go to ground -1 cp.

You now have 20 gaurdsmen who are -1 to be hit in your objective, cautiously gaurding 2 astropaths. While only t3, its absolutely maddening to discover that their base 5+ save in cover is 4+ when they go to ground its 3+ and with the aegis of the emperor upon them, its 2+. They can still die, but they will soak a LOT of bolters and stuff.

7. Leftovers. Add a third squad the next round and cast the buffs again. This invests 2 more cp, but depending on what happened, an enemy who didn't expect this may find he can't bring his main forces to bear in time to bring a metric poopy ton of guardsmen with excellent saves down.

The easy recipe for you lazy cooks is "take one squad of 30 wilderness survivor conscripts, buff, repeat." This recipe can't do melee near as well, as it lacks the sargeants' power weapons.

Its a great trick. Doing quick math, 10 marine scouts firing 10 bolters two times each would expect to hit only 10 times, casuing 6 attempts to save (well, 6.67) and killing 1.11 gaurdsmen. A more favorable ratio than gaurd on an objective have any right to expect.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/12 06:13:09


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ Arcanis161: I, personally, think the advantages of a second detachment are well worth the additional CP. While we have a lot of stuff that can be fuelled with CP I (personal opinion) don't think they are as essential as in some other codizes (think IK rotate ion shields and similar).
Also at least in my collection there are too many elite choices even for a Brigade and I don't think the additional CP of not taking a second detachment are worth dropping them (Astropaths for nightshroud/psychic barrier/denies and to ignore cover, Ogryn Bodyguards to keep our squishy characters alive, Bullgryns for countercharge, SWS/Command squads for meltas and plasma, a priest... 8 elite slots are filled pretty fast...)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/12 10:04:27


Post by: Dukeofstuff


You can literally buy 8 elite units for under 200 points in ninth edition gaurd, while you can get 1 unit of six aggressors for MORE points than that.

Its no wonder we fill elite slots the way the marines hit things they shoot at.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/13 17:46:56


Post by: Maxzero


Apparently weapon updates that appear in the SM codex will apply to other armies that use the same weapons.

Flamers to 12"
Heavy Bolters to D2
Melta to Dd6+2
Multi-Melta to 2 shots
+1S Powerswords
-1AP Astartes Chainswords
Plasma only overheating on a natural 1

Interesting that Crusaders will now be 20 points for 3 wounds and 2 attacks with S4 powerswords and 3++.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/13 17:53:57


Post by: BaconCatBug


I'm more annoyed they haven't standardised the Crusaders in the AM codex like they promised they would.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/13 19:07:35


Post by: Bluflash


Maxzero wrote:
Interesting that Crusaders will now be 20 points for 3 wounds and 2 attacks with S4 powerswords and 3++.


Wouldn't that be 3+/4++ with the new storm-shields rule?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/13 19:59:08


Post by: Pyroalchi


3 wounds? wow.

Also with Heavy Bolters going to 2 damage the Malcador Defender (which also seems to have gotten Grinding Advance for its Demolisher cannon) is suddenly some really impressive piece of Anti Marine hate... 325 points for 21 x 5/-1/2 and 2D6 10/-3/D6... That's... definitly impressive. And it's still to be seen what they make out of its "hits on 5+ in overwatch" ability.

Honestly I would have prefered it if they had givven it some other gimmick to make it more useful compared to its weight in Leman Russ instead of just outright doubling its firepower. But then again: if a lot of stuff goes up in wounds the increase in deadliness might be less bad than one would expect currently.

But on that note: if Heavy Bolters are d2 now I'm quite expecting the Stormlord and Macharius Vulcan going to d3...


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/13 21:51:23


Post by: Trickstick


12" flamers is a pretty huge change. So many times I have tried to get flamers to work, only to come up against things like 9" reserve rules and the like.

SWSs with flamers, in reserve, could actually be useful now. Maybe not good, but at least not dismissed out of hand any more.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/14 03:04:09


Post by: MrMoustaffa


I'm actually kind of liking heavy bolters now if they go up to 2 damage across the board. That's a solid weapon for an infantry squad, or plink with chimeras and support vehicles. Leman Russe's with 3 of them could actually chip a few wounds too. It's not jaw dropping but for the first time in 40k I'm not looking at a heavy bolter and wondering why you'd even consider it.

Heavy flamers potentially going out to 12" should've been there from the start. That's a big buff for our tanks, provided you can see the target to overwatch it.

The others I'm not sure on yet. Powerswords look neat on Catachans now that they're wounding marines and orks on 3's. Paying 5 pts for 4 powersword attacks on a sarge ain't too shabby, does more good than the points in an extra guardsman would in melee.

Curious to see how it shakes out


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/14 04:24:51


Post by: Pyroalchi


Regarding d2 heavy bolters: so you think autocannons will say as they are? One less shot for +12" and +2S seem of limited use...


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/14 07:33:58


Post by: JohnnyHell


After the weapon changes a Stormlord full of Special Weapon squads and Commabd Squads rolling up the middle and firing 20x 12” Flamers and Heavy Flamers out will be grim to face. I know at least one player in our group who’ll try this against an unsuspecting opponent with limited AT in their list!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/14 14:04:00


Post by: Kcalehc


 Pyroalchi wrote:
Regarding d2 heavy bolters: so you think autocannons will say as they are? One less shot for +12" and +2S seem of limited use...


Honestly, probably will stay the same. The price in points is even, not sure how they compare now statistically against different targets, but it seems the choice is HB against light/heavy infantry - or AC against light-medium vehicles.

We've almost got to the point where all special weapons cost the same, and all heavy weapons cost the same (only ML and LC that are different currently) that you could almost put in one standard cost for an Infantry Squad and call it something like "Power Level". Oh, wait...

Though with the Heavy Flamer range change, and the shootin into combat change, definitely rethinking those heavy bolters on my Chimeras, as they are likely to be close up and or in combat more than the Leman Russ's.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/14 15:36:11


Post by: Maxzero



The rumour is the Autocannon with gain an extra point of AP.

But that is just a rumour.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/15 11:12:41


Post by: Tomsug


Does it make sence to build list about Leman Russ spam? Something like this? 3x3 LR. One team with TC and battlecannons holding backfield and 2 teams with their TC and punishers and demolishers rubling forward? Regiment and detachements are still an open topic, this is the version I call Death Russ of Krieg

Spoiler:
:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [105 PL, 1,800pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum, Gunnery Experts, Spotter Details

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Augur array, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Plasma Cannons, Steel Commander, Warlord, WT: Master of Command

Tank Commander [12 PL, 210pts]: Display Tank Orders, Heavy Flamer, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Augur array, Heavy Bolter, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 330pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 345pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Punisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

++ Total: [105 PL, 12CP, 1,800pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/15 12:29:33


Post by: Maxzero


 Tomsug wrote:
Does it make sence to build list about Leman Russ spam? Something like this? 3x3 LR. One team with TC and battlecannons holding backfield and 2 teams with their TC and punishers and demolishers rubling forward? Regiment and detachements are still an open topic, this is the version I call Death Russ of Krieg

Spoiler:
:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [105 PL, 1,800pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum, Gunnery Experts, Spotter Details

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Augur array, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Plasma Cannons, Steel Commander, Warlord, WT: Master of Command

Tank Commander [12 PL, 210pts]: Display Tank Orders, Heavy Flamer, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Augur array, Heavy Bolter, Steel Commander, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 330pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [20 PL, 345pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Punisher: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

++ Total: [105 PL, 12CP, 1,800pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)


Honestly it's more viable then troops are at the moment (outside of DKOK). Sure you won't win ObjSec but at least you won't be spending hundreds of points on infantry that will just be Bolt Rifle fodder.

To stop things just charging in Crusaders, Bullgryn or Armoured Sentinels can block for you.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/15 14:21:24


Post by: Sterling191


Remember that in a Spearhead all Russes (including TCs) get ObSec. It obviously wont let you go toe to toe on an objective with ObSec squads (simply because they're going to by definition outnumber your Russ hulls 95% of the imte), but for overriding things like marauding Wave Serpents or Impulsors or other fast movers just camping on objectives without ObSec support it can win games.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/15 14:37:05


Post by: Tomsug


Sterling191 wrote:
Remember that in a Spearhead all Russes (including TCs) get ObSec. It obviously wont let you go toe to toe on an objective with ObSec squads (simply because they're going to by definition outnumber your Russ hulls 95% of the imte), but for overriding things like marauding Wave Serpents or Impulsors or other fast movers just camping on objectives without ObSec support it can win games.


You hit precisely what bother me the most. The problem is more complicated:

Teams of 3 Russes = TC+2LR seems to be pretty efective. But it means 3x hq. Spearhead is just 2 hq max. So spearhead + one TC in patrol with scions? Could be, but cost you 3CP. But I can scratch 2 other scions team, spare 90p and beef up some russes. Because now, just the warlord has the sponsons.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/15 21:57:36


Post by: Razerous


Regular heavy support AM Russes are a lot of points, with a native 4+. I'm not sure they're worth it.

Obsec troops isn't bad - you score objectives on your turn, right?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/15 22:42:30


Post by: Sterling191


Razerous wrote:

Obsec troops isn't bad - you score objectives on your turn, right?


At the top of your turn. You need to be on an objective, and survive for a round, before you can derive points from it (for most objectives, there are a few specific secondaries that score differently).


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/16 01:50:48


Post by: Dukeofstuff


So we are clear, the new heavy bolter is D2, AND fires three times? Or its D2, and ONE shot? Cause I have heard both from different sources over the last few days, and that will affect my impression of "do I want this gun".

Crusaders. Three wounds each. 20 points.
Overpriced? Not even!

I just fear its a typo and they really meant 3 toughnesses.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/16 10:49:12


Post by: Pyroalchi


One thing I'm curious to see: now that almost all marines go to two wounds I think (my opinion) there is quite some possibility that other "heavy infantry" might follow. It's really just a wild guess, but I could see (recosted) ork boys at 2 wounds etc.
So I assume (again: wild guess) with an increasing number of 2 wound models in most armies, the average "all comers list" will drift more to d2 weapons, wich on the other hand would often be wasted on our cheap guardsmen. That... could actually be an advantage. Just take heavy bolters (assuming they stay at heavy 3 when going to d2) which are now, at twice the cost, much more efficient against Primaris and their new 2W firstborn cousins, but haven't gained in efficiency against guardsmen.

Of course: it's much too soon to be sure if this is a thing, but I found it interesting thinking about it recently.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/16 17:16:31


Post by: Manous


Heyo

Has anyone a source for the new 3 Wound Crusaders?


I mean if it is true they could be quite efficent as addition to Bullgryns in a melee guard.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/17 07:58:35


Post by: Maxzero


Bluflash wrote:
Maxzero wrote:
Interesting that Crusaders will now be 20 points for 3 wounds and 2 attacks with S4 powerswords and 3++.


Wouldn't that be 3+/4++ with the new storm-shields rule?



With the new rules yes.

With Psychic Barrier Crusaders would be 2+/3++.

Honestly still think that is pretty decent for Objective holding especially if in cover.

At this point I don't see the point of regular Guardsmen in competitive AM lists anymore. They threaten almost nothing and just give other factions 'weak' troops a perfect target to generate points from.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/17 11:46:21


Post by: Razerous


Where does crusaders having 3 wounds come from - I appreciate its true, just unsure as my AM codex states the original 1W profile.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/17 18:00:42


Post by: Maxzero


Razerous wrote:
Where does crusaders having 3 wounds come from - I appreciate its true, just unsure as my AM codex states the original 1W profile.


Battlescribe.

Basically they are the same Crusaders that Sisters now get. Just 20 PPM instead of 16.

Just how Priests are imported into the AM.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/17 18:11:49


Post by: Sterling191


Maxzero wrote:

Battlescribe.


Battlescribe gets gak wrong all the time. If you're seeing a major statistical shift on a unit, and cant find it referenced anywhere else outside the app, it's highly unlikely to be real. Especially in the context of the mega-rush for the beginning of 9th.

Crusaders are 1W in the Sororitas codex by the by.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/17 19:32:13


Post by: Maxzero


Sterling191 wrote:
Maxzero wrote:

Battlescribe.


Battlescribe gets gak wrong all the time. If you're seeing a major statistical shift on a unit, and cant find it referenced anywhere else outside the app, it's highly unlikely to be real. Especially in the context of the mega-rush for the beginning of 9th.

Crusaders are 1W in the Sororitas codex by the by.


If they are 20 points for T3 1W garbage then I will simply replace them with Bullgryns.

The point is Guardsmen are basically a liability as the rules are so I am simply looking for alternatives.

Whether they be Crusaders, Bullgryns or Armoured Sentinels.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/17 21:03:39


Post by: catbarf


Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/17 21:38:44


Post by: leerm02


I'm personally hoping for some more Ogryn/Bullgryn love when we finally get the new codex.

IMO they don't need much. Maybe up their wounds by +1 (because that seems to be the order of the day) and give me a few new options for weapons and such.

I'd love it to have some actual heavy (ranged) firepower on both types of Ogryns!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 00:23:45


Post by: Andredre


leerm02 wrote:
I'm personally hoping for some more Ogryn/Bullgryn love when we finally get the new codex.

IMO they don't need much. Maybe up their wounds by +1 (because that seems to be the order of the day) and give me a few new options for weapons and such.

I'd love it to have some actual heavy (ranged) firepower on both types of Ogryns!


4 wound Bullgryns would be great!!!

What do you guys think are the best loadouts for command squads, seargants and it special weapons?
I’m thinking plasma. But anything else seem good?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 01:02:35


Post by: cody.d.


Still really liking how Scions are faring. Their ability to slap out plasma (and melta nowdays) really feel like they'll be valuable in this 2wound filled edition. That and the fact they're build style is surrounded around MSU troop units.

Though the new detachment rules is a bit of a downer. But that's the nerf to soup I guess?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 02:18:13


Post by: Dukeofstuff


My end of eighth army was all scions -- and I think maybe 3 regular gaurd in the very small artillery wing is all I might bring in to dilute that with a second detachment.
Points are tighter now though. I can't bring 4 psyker primes like I used to :(.

And yeah, I was suspicious about the no source 3 wound crusaders too, although that is just barely on par with a tac marine, at that point cost and effect level. Also note that crusaders armor is 4+/3++, NOT 3+/3++, so with the rule change does that make it 4+/4++ or am I missing something?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 05:30:04


Post by: Maxzero


 catbarf wrote:
Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.


What screening?

Guardsmen won't do anything in protect a LR from AT fire. They threaten nothing with their own fire-power and just make a perfect target for Bolt Rifles.

The only non Grenadier use I could see is Wilderness Survivors completely bare bones who just flood objectives and die in droves. Probably Conscriprs since it saves on the squad combining costs.




Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 06:39:00


Post by: Pyroalchi


I think (opinion) they still screen pretty nicely against stuff that want's to be in CC with our tanks or has to get up close (like meltas) by just standing in the way. They cannot be shifted that easy by morale any more and an infantry squad sitting in cover is a cover not used by the enemy.

And I still believe it's a value of its own that we have access to that cheap objective secured models. I'm not sure how feasible this is in practice but on a purely theorycrafting basis I could see potential in focussing fire on the enemy units with objective secured (giving how much awesome stuff is in other slots in some armies, I assume (!) they will be not that prevalent in some armies), giving them real trouble in scoring objectives, since a single guardsmen can "hold" it against a dozen Aggressors, Eradicators, Eliminators etc.

Sure they will die in droves but 500 Points are 100 guardsmen. You can build armies to kill that many in one or two rounds but then you have not build towards anti tank etc.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 07:51:38


Post by: Dolnikan


Maxzero wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.


What screening?

Guardsmen won't do anything in protect a LR from AT fire. They threaten nothing with their own fire-power and just make a perfect target for Bolt Rifles.

The only non Grenadier use I could see is Wilderness Survivors completely bare bones who just flood objectives and die in droves. Probably Conscriprs since it saves on the squad combining costs.




In the games I got in during 8th, my foot guard wasn't suffering that much and infantry squads can actually dish out quite some pain, especially when they each carry a plasma gun or the like. Plasma now costs next to nothing, so truly, there is no reason not to.

For my pure infantry, I'm still doubting between Wilderness Survivors/Disciplined Shooters and Catachan, as both have their nice sides. Although I now tend more towards the more shooting-oriented ones because of how points have gone up on everything.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 10:07:08


Post by: Krull


In an all commers lists, how do you load out your armored sentinels?
Plasmas? I always fear those 1's as it seems i trow mor ones then anything else.
Autocannon seems to be most reliable.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/18 10:18:27


Post by: Pyroalchi


I guess it depends what you intend to do with them.

My guess would be: heavy flamers if you intend to use them very agressively, running forward, maybe even charging and interacting with screens. Multilasers if you just want to fill fast attack slots and care more about their foot print.
Lascannon/Missile launcher if you have some 50 points lying around and would aprecciate some more anti tank (there are better AT options of course, but few so cheap) or want something that draws some fire from your other vehicles.
Autocannons if you want to hang back but don't want to be a fire magnet.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 03:48:55


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I don't think I would be sanguine about using these guys when I could use a single taurox in place of two of them or a single taurox prime in place of 2 of them with lasguns, for example. Each pair of sentinal destroyed is potentially 4.2 victory points for someone thinning the ranks and armor hunting (both common against gaurd) and the tauroxes are only 2.1 each.

So yeah, if you got points for 1, go for it, if you got points for 2, look hard at a taurox (also a transport, and FASTER) or at a taurox prime (also a transport and faster with better weapons). IF you got points for three of them, look hard at swapping them for a single leman russ battle tank!





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.


Note that the objective geared to killing infantry gets a "counts as 11" for each vehicle that has more than 10 (I think its more than 10) wounds. So if you have a farly conservative gaurd army of 3 tank commander, 3 hellhound, 3 platoon commander, 6 infantry, 2 leman russ and 1 manticore, its "horde" value is back up to 150 "men" from the tanks adding in 10 each, ie, 15 points. If you get tabled. (Also note that army is only around 1924 points so you could put a few weapons in the six squads, sure.)

In ninth, you can get primary objective points up to 45, but you can get 40 of them just by taking and holding 2 objectives for 4 turns. So the enemy (if he takes and holds three) can only beat you by 5 points that way, and its VERY hard to keep someoen from doing that in his side fo the field. Execpt of course, regular gaurd can come in from the side of the board (reserves) for a couple CP, and movemovemove onto the objective site, score something like being in all four fields at the end of your turn, and then, by contesting against the 5 marines on the actual objective, disrupt the ENEMY holding the objective for a turn.

If you have mabye 6 dedicated gaurd troops to stick in reserves, with 3 officers, you can play that game for 2 turns, disrupt the heck out of an MSU style armies' best attempt to hold its objectives, and the notionally "useless" gaurd has all but won you the game, as the enemy is now digging himself out of a 20 point hole (since you probably can interfere on turns 2 and 3, but not beyond, with that trick). The poor guy is probably further in the hole than that, as your own side probably "holds more" if you disrupt his holding that way, so you probably get up to the 45 point max, while he probably gets around 20 to 25 points (even if he does really well in rounds 4 and 5, you can still add in 10 a round to the 30 you got turns 2 and 3).

So yeah, not useless at all! I appreciate this isn't a be all and end all recipe for victory, but its an example of how ninth is just .. different .. from eighth, in a manner that lets even fairly unbalanced armies do things you don't expect. Are 60 gaurdsmen without even a flamer between them going to win any fights? no. But they might win you a 25 point lead that the enemy CANT get back, and that's what this game has become about.







Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 11:23:51


Post by: Dr. Mills


With the changes to 9th edition, would it still be viable to run 100 infantry models in a 2 x 30 conscript blobs for screening and 4 x 10 infantry squads to move up and secure objectives?

While they will be bare bones, I'm wondering if 100 models would be a lot to churn through (as now the HB is very inefficient at chaff clearing due to D2) the worry is of course mass bolt rifle spam. Obviously the army will be supported by tanks, sentinels, etc. But I'm primarily concerned if this amount of infantry is too much or not efficient in its roles played on the table.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 12:04:14


Post by: Babar_babar


Dukeofstuff wrote:
I don't think I would be sanguine about using these guys when I could use a single taurox in place of two of them or a single taurox prime in place of 2 of them with lasguns, for example. Each pair of sentinal destroyed is potentially 4.2 victory points for someone thinning the ranks and armor hunting (both common against gaurd) and the tauroxes are only 2.1 each.

So yeah, if you got points for 1, go for it, if you got points for 2, look hard at a taurox (also a transport, and FASTER) or at a taurox prime (also a transport and faster with better weapons). IF you got points for three of them, look hard at swapping them for a single leman russ battle tank!





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
Battlescribe shows W1 on Crusaders for me, so not sure what you're looking at.

Writing off Guardsmen entirely seems like an enormous overreaction. The one secondary objective geared towards killing infantry is a poor choice unless your opponent is fielding 150+ models, so Guardsmen certainly still have a place.

If you try to rely on Bullgryns, Crusaders, or Sentinels for screening, you're not going to have the board presence to both effectively screen for your heavy hitters and take objectives.


Note that the objective geared to killing infantry gets a "counts as 11" for each vehicle that has more than 10 (I think its more than 10) wounds. So if you have a farly conservative gaurd army of 3 tank commander, 3 hellhound, 3 platoon commander, 6 infantry, 2 leman russ and 1 manticore, its "horde" value is back up to 150 "men" from the tanks adding in 10 each, ie, 15 points. If you get tabled. (Also note that army is only around 1924 points so you could put a few weapons in the six squads, sure.)

In ninth, you can get primary objective points up to 45, but you can get 40 of them just by taking and holding 2 objectives for 4 turns. So the enemy (if he takes and holds three) can only beat you by 5 points that way, and its VERY hard to keep someoen from doing that in his side fo the field. Execpt of course, regular gaurd can come in from the side of the board (reserves) for a couple CP, and movemovemove onto the objective site, score something like being in all four fields at the end of your turn, and then, by contesting against the 5 marines on the actual objective, disrupt the ENEMY holding the objective for a turn.

If you have mabye 6 dedicated gaurd troops to stick in reserves, with 3 officers, you can play that game for 2 turns, disrupt the heck out of an MSU style armies' best attempt to hold its objectives, and the notionally "useless" gaurd has all but won you the game, as the enemy is now digging himself out of a 20 point hole (since you probably can interfere on turns 2 and 3, but not beyond, with that trick). The poor guy is probably further in the hole than that, as your own side probably "holds more" if you disrupt his holding that way, so you probably get up to the 45 point max, while he probably gets around 20 to 25 points (even if he does really well in rounds 4 and 5, you can still add in 10 a round to the 30 you got turns 2 and 3).

So yeah, not useless at all! I appreciate this isn't a be all and end all recipe for victory, but its an example of how ninth is just .. different .. from eighth, in a manner that lets even fairly unbalanced armies do things you don't expect. Are 60 gaurdsmen without even a flamer between them going to win any fights? no. But they might win you a 25 point lead that the enemy CANT get back, and that's what this game has become about.







Can we "move move move" the turn we come from reserves? I thought no movement was allowed but charges and consolidation/pile-in but this might be an 8th edition thing


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 13:11:13


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I assumed it fell away with the eigth edition rules -- there are so many little safegaurds about where the guys can enter, and I know in your own baseline they can even enter directly into melee (free charge from offboard.) So I don't realoly know that you can, and even if not, its still putting a large number of obsec in midfield on turn 2, having not been shot at on turn 1.

And a six man aggressor squad can put out 120 shots, reasonably hit 80 times if unsupported (or 120 if they are marines and someone wrote the ruleset to force even morons to win with them), causing some 56 saves among gaurdsmen. If you have used a bit of cover and perhaps a psyker to augment your saves, you probably still lose about 26 guys from that one squad, or up to 40ish if they are at that time of the month for marine ap. Talk about a priority target!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 15:05:19


Post by: Wakshaani


Of course, if you take three 10-man squads instead of one 30-man Conscript squad, you A) make Blast weapons less useful and B) make him try to gamble on splitting fire, leaving you some options if luck doesn't roll his way.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 15:27:36


Post by: Razerous


Unless there is inherent value to 10 man squads, such as unit choices, wargear or slot availability.. 5 man squads are just better, especially more mobile / cheaper / both.

10 Orgyns, sure.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 15:31:32


Post by: Maxzero


Dukeofstuff wrote:
I assumed it fell away with the eigth edition rules -- there are so many little safegaurds about where the guys can enter, and I know in your own baseline they can even enter directly into melee (free charge from offboard.) So I don't realoly know that you can, and even if not, its still putting a large number of obsec in midfield on turn 2, having not been shot at on turn 1.

And a six man aggressor squad can put out 120 shots, reasonably hit 80 times if unsupported (or 120 if they are marines and someone wrote the ruleset to force even morons to win with them), causing some 56 saves among gaurdsmen. If you have used a bit of cover and perhaps a psyker to augment your saves, you probably still lose about 26 guys from that one squad, or up to 40ish if they are at that time of the month for marine ap. Talk about a priority target!


That is probably my biggest fear when it comes to basic Guardsmen.

The worst thing is they can do nothing back. A few 5 Point Plasmaguns are hardly going to be a threat. So they basically just go in to die in mass amounts.

The best option seems to be go pure defensive barebones just to buy as much time as possible while other units do the heavy lifting.

An example:

Batt - Gunnery Ex, Wilderness Surv
CC - Warlord
TC - HB, Executioner
2 x Astropath
6 x Infantry Squad

Spearhead - Gunnery Ex, Spotters
2 x TC - HB, Executioner
3 x Infanty Squad
4 x Thunderer Siege Tank
2 x Tank Ace Manticore

Basically 60 4+ save infantry plus 30 5+ ones who's sole role is to die as slowly as possible and then 7 LR + 2 Tank Ace Manticore with +range and reroll shots kill as fast as they can.

It's a pretty dumb list but its a pretty dumb meta.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/19 20:58:14


Post by: Razerous


I feel slots are more valuable than bodies - that tends to cost CP.

At least for guard.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/20 10:45:04


Post by: tneva82


Maxzero wrote:
What screening?



The units that do automatic T1 charges to your tanks locking them in combat where your heavy weapons get -1 to hit and blast weapons(like most turret weapons) can't even shoot and you could even be forced to spend 2CP(and have 1/6 chance of losing tank automatically) to even fall back to let others shoot(if those didn't get tagged as well due to no screening)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
I assumed it fell away with the eigth edition rules -- there are so many little safegaurds about where the guys can enter, and I know in your own baseline they can even enter directly into melee (free charge from offboard.) So I don't realoly know that you can, and even if not, its still putting a large number of obsec in midfield on turn 2, having not been shot at on turn 1.


Reinforcement units cannot make a Normal Move, Advance, Fall
Back or Remain Stationary in the turn they arrive for any reason, but
they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.).




So unless you can convince opponent move move move is not making Normal Move then no it still applies.

(page 11 on the free rules PDF on GW site. Under reinforcements)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/20 11:19:19


Post by: Maxzero


tneva82 wrote:
Maxzero wrote:
What screening?



The units that do automatic T1 charges to your tanks locking them in combat where your heavy weapons get -1 to hit and blast weapons(like most turret weapons) can't even shoot and you could even be forced to spend 2CP(and have 1/6 chance of losing tank automatically) to even fall back to let others shoot(if those didn't get tagged as well due to no screening)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
I assumed it fell away with the eigth edition rules -- there are so many little safegaurds about where the guys can enter, and I know in your own baseline they can even enter directly into melee (free charge from offboard.) So I don't realoly know that you can, and even if not, its still putting a large number of obsec in midfield on turn 2, having not been shot at on turn 1.


Reinforcement units cannot make a Normal Move, Advance, Fall
Back or Remain Stationary in the turn they arrive for any reason, but
they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, fight etc.).




So unless you can convince opponent move move move is not making Normal Move then no it still applies.

(page 11 on the free rules PDF on GW site. Under reinforcements)


Sure and how many armies rely on turn 1 charges now? The vast majority of armies are gunlines.

Do you build for the 90% or the 10%?



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/20 11:32:17


Post by: tneva82


Melee elements are fairly common though especially as 9th ed shoot at backline and win doesn't work that well due to it being midfield objective campers.

Hell so far all the games I have played win/loss has been decided who gets to lock opponents army into his deployment zone early up. Automatic T1 charge does that fairly well. By the time you clear the enemy units you have got got too far to score back. You only have 4 turns to score primaries for example so losing even one means you have to max out on them to get max not to mention all the secondaries which generally don't work out that well if you are in your deployment zone clearing enemy units.

Like I said to another on idea of throwing in necron warriors and ghost arks T1 to opponents deployement zone. I dont' CARE if they die. It will still take time to clear out those(especially after getting to fire 60 S5 -2 and 60 S4 -1 shots). If they keep him in his deployment zone and soak up firepower they have done their job.

You assume those T1 chargers is his main threat rather than cheap chaff to tie you up...

Look at tournament winners. They aren't pure gunlines. When 9th ed is "he who controls midfield wins" pure gunline isn't that hot.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/20 12:12:41


Post by: Maxzero


tneva82 wrote:
Melee elements are fairly common though especially as 9th ed shoot at backline and win doesn't work that well due to it being midfield objective campers.

Hell so far all the games I have played win/loss has been decided who gets to lock opponents army into his deployment zone early up. Automatic T1 charge does that fairly well. By the time you clear the enemy units you have got got too far to score back. You only have 4 turns to score primaries for example so losing even one means you have to max out on them to get max not to mention all the secondaries which generally don't work out that well if you are in your deployment zone clearing enemy units.

Like I said to another on idea of throwing in necron warriors and ghost arks T1 to opponents deployement zone. I dont' CARE if they die. It will still take time to clear out those(especially after getting to fire 60 S5 -2 and 60 S4 -1 shots). If they keep him in his deployment zone and soak up firepower they have done their job.

You assume those T1 chargers is his main threat rather than cheap chaff to tie you up...

Look at tournament winners. They aren't pure gunlines. When 9th ed is "he who controls midfield wins" pure gunline isn't that hot.


But as you said yourself the units you are throwing into T1 zones are purely expendable. Spending a lot to guard against that isn't a particularily good deal.

I have said later I can see a role for barebones infantry they are purely defensive and expendable.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/20 16:37:48


Post by: MrMoustaffa


So that reserves thing brings up a good point, for infantry guard at least. You want to go full horde IG, you no longer have to care how much space you have in your deployment. Feth it, you could throw a 100 guardsmen in reserves with some priests and Bullgryn and just take the opponents deployment for your own. Would work well with Catachans, given they could light up the opponent with FRFSRF and then charge in to finish the job.

I might give that a try this Monday, seems like it'd be interesting. With melta being 5pts a gun may as well chuck those in the squads, and if powerswords become +1S Catachan sarges become pretty nasty for the cost in melee. I guess core would be guardsmen, both to hold the line and flank, with ogryn and hellhounds supporting the flank attack while you use leman Russe's or manticores to soften the opponent up turn 1.

You're going to be hurting on CP but it's not like IG relies on CP to function quite like some armies do. Maybe that's changed a little in 9th but I think that sort of out of the box thinking is going to be what it takes to win in 9th.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/20 17:50:53


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Maxzero wrote:


Sure and how many armies rely on turn 1 charges now? The vast majority of armies are gunlines.

Do you build for the 90% or the 10%?



This is not congruent with my experience. Stand and shoot isn't winning, at least from what I've seen, and being aggressive about attacking and contesting the midfield is.



Anyway, I'm debating between Scout Sentinels, Armored Sentinels, and Hellhounds for the Fast Attack slots in my Brigade, because I basically was going to fill the rest of the brigade and then some anyway so I might as well get the whole brigade and not spend the CP on double battalion.

Armored Sentinels are my least favorite option, because they're just heavy weapons platforms, and I've got lots of armored type heavy weapons floating around.

Scout Sentinels are cheap, also carry heavy weapons, and have Vanguard, which means that against non-Space Marines, they'll zone out the turn 1 redeploys and deep strikes [Jump, Gate, etc] and catch some T1 charges.that would otherwise be charging my rifles and tanks and pinning me in my deploy area. And with clever positioning, I can hopefully bait some of those would-be T1 chargers into bad positions from which I can wipe them clear with the loss of only the like 45 point Sentinel.

Hellhounds, though, are another good option that is very attractive. Especially Devil Dogs when the Melta change rolls out. These are legitimately tanks, increasing the saturation of armor-type targets I've got. They're fast and dangerous and well armed, meaning they're much more of an active threat than the Sentinels are, but they can't Vanguard. They can also be used to charge enemy units that can't fight them so good, and either be invulnerable to everyone else's shooting before blowing that unit away on its turn, or they fall back and give up position and the objectives.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/21 02:06:59


Post by: cody.d.




Sure and how many armies rely on turn 1 charges now? The vast majority of armies are gunlines.

Do you build for the 90% or the 10%?



*laughs in Ork* Well, orks at least have quite a few options for first turn charges. I'd imagine Eldar would have a fair few as well. And the good old smash captains (or a unit of death company) I remember there's a combo to have a melee knight in your deployment zone as well. If warptime can affect non-infantry then anything in the chaos roster with a decent movespeed can do it.

Maybe Valkyries? But I think they nerfed them a while back. Sadly no ogryn rush any more.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/21 06:38:50


Post by: konst80hummel


On the subject of Hellhound chassis... Be advised that their propensity for exploding has lost me games in the past when the enemy focused on them while they were still in my deployment zone. With how packed Guard armies were the carnage was... spectacular.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/21 07:28:47


Post by: Krull


cody.d. wrote:


Sure and how many armies rely on turn 1 charges now? The vast majority of armies are gunlines.

Do you build for the 90% or the 10%?



*laughs in Ork* Well, orks at least have quite a few options for first turn charges. I'd imagine Eldar would have a fair few as well. And the good old smash captains (or a unit of death company) I remember there's a combo to have a melee knight in your deployment zone as well. If warptime can affect non-infantry then anything in the chaos roster with a decent movespeed can do it.

Maybe Valkyries? But I think they nerfed them a while back. Sadly no ogryn rush any more.


And nids to. Even more easily then orks i guess.
Genestealers who can advance and charge and have abilities to pile in and consolidate up ton12 inch iirc.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/21 07:47:35


Post by: Pyroalchi


I think guard can also still pull off a turn 1 charge, namely with Scout Sentinels and, should they be usable, Salamander Scout Tanks and Death Korps Centaur Light Assault Carriers.

With their scout move + normal move + advance + charge (with crush them) they should be able to cover quite some distance, shouldn't they?
For the Scout Sentinels it's 9+9+D6+2D6= on average 28.5'', for the other two 3'' more, so 31.5 on average rolls.

Of course we don't RELY on turn 1 charges, but I think (!) it might be an option now and then. Also if the point is not so much charging as "getting as near as possible towards the enemy deployment zone to get him boxed in", Deathriders with the "Move Move Move" order are also really fast (20 + 2D6'')


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/21 15:13:06


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Valkyrie and Vendetta (both are useable in ninth) can run 45 inches up the board, dump their troops (and a few gaurd may die, the horror) and leave that as an emergency blocker force against someone moving his big knight down an alleyway between terrain, or getting his turn 1 charge on your main body.

BUT.

Gaurd doesn't HAVE to be just gaurd. You could buy for pretty cheap a pair of scout marines in the ravengaurd tradition and a single chaplain to lead the basterds, pay your 3 cp, add a single squad of 6 aggressors to your gaurd army. You will start out down 5 cp, but your position gains many of the advantages of a marine army while still having points leftoever to make a good gaurd gunline. Against a fellow gaurd army, boom, you just poured 138 bolter shots into their screen park, and then rushed your aggressors into combat with some unlucky tank. The flexibility from master of ambush (the aggressors can relocate anywhere outside 9 inch from enemy deploy as a pregame "move" and THEN infiltrate forward a move, and THEN count as having not moved... or you could stick them in deepstrike at the last moment after your enemy has gone ragged trying to figure out how to screen against that exact action on turn 0, and then deepstrike in on top of the worst spot after your gaurd guns clear a few screens. In the VERY worst case scenario, a chaplain + 6 aggressors serves the gaurd as the countercharge in the backfield that you might otherwise not have had, cause you can also deepstrike back there in a pinch (or MoA move back there instead of the enemy deployment line).

I think its a really good (and fairly inexpensive) synergy for a cadian gunline, make a brigade with creed and then add those few marines on top of it.


Oh. Final thought.
valkyrie + precision drop + 5 scions with 2 plasma, plasma pistol, and powersword or fist (doctrine lambda lions) x 2 + tempest prime with lambda lions 1 reroll (shooting) and 5++ shield aura / rod of command and powerfist + tempest prime with rod of command and powerfist, deathmask of oleanus. So your little suicide group (I assume you are adding a scion patrol to a regular gaurd army here) can really slow someone down a tad on turn 1, by basically appearing in melee with a couple of their units they may have needed to have in play.

If you MUST turn 1 charge, this puts 4 individual tiny and admittedly somewhat fragile units right next to your enemy (you could also do it with a 9 scion group, 2 tempest primes, and a ministerium priest who steps out 9 inches away. Trail the scions a bit to get the bonus swinging their sargent weapon).

Point is, you have to roll a 4 out of 12 to get a charge turn 1. and if you do it with 4 units, (I guess instead of putting your GOOD units there, you could throw in 2 5 man squads that you doun't care much about, and let the chips fall where they may) you could potentially pick your adversary to force the enemy to waste his overwatch on one of the 2 5 man squads, and get the other into combat with something he doesn't want tied up from shooting or deploy zone locked on turn 1.

Lambda scions are not great in melee, but its a bit like the resilience of marine scouts, surprisingly decent, and their ap-1 buff means even their little s3 swings have effect when you wouldn't really expect it.

I probably would not do this one myself, but it IS theoretically possible and maybe it will have a place in the evolving meta of nine. There is a similar ploy with 3 x 3 man crusader squads and a ministerium priest, to try to tag a few enemy units on turn 1 and generally throw a block out 9 inches from the foe.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/23 07:39:24


Post by: Esmer


Are Vox Casters worth it now. I figure with you having to move your dudes around the board now, the company commanders staying back with a Vet gunline while ordering infantry squads towards the objectives may be more feasible now.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/25 01:18:02


Post by: Dukeofstuff


In 8, gaurd was better off usually buying more officers. In 9, with character assassination a major score against gaurd pointwise, they may have a role to keep fragile gaurd leadership out of the way of the bullets at the front.

I ain't sure yet.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/25 03:01:12


Post by: cody.d.


 Pyroalchi wrote:
I think guard can also still pull off a turn 1 charge, namely with Scout Sentinels and, should they be usable, Salamander Scout Tanks and Death Korps Centaur Light Assault Carriers.

With their scout move + normal move + advance + charge (with crush them) they should be able to cover quite some distance, shouldn't they?
For the Scout Sentinels it's 9+9+D6+2D6= on average 28.5'', for the other two 3'' more, so 31.5 on average rolls.

Of course we don't RELY on turn 1 charges, but I think (!) it might be an option now and then. Also if the point is not so much charging as "getting as near as possible towards the enemy deployment zone to get him boxed in", Deathriders with the "Move Move Move" order are also really fast (20 + 2D6'')


Oh yeah, scout sentinels would be fairly decent. Regardless what you arm them with there would be value in sprinting in and tagging a few units. Forcing them to move and or give up some shooting. Depending on the situation it could be well worth the trade.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/25 03:52:33


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Esmer wrote:
Are Vox Casters worth it now. I figure with you having to move your dudes around the board now, the company commanders staying back with a Vet gunline while ordering infantry squads towards the objectives may be more feasible now.


Eh, maybe, but guard always has an issue with little things adding up to be a big deal. If you're to the point of buying 4-5 voxes, I would just buy more officers instead. Your two main regiments (Catachan and Cadian) can both get a 4th Company commander by named characters and I've never really felt low on orders thanks to that. You could event take platoon commanders if you absolutely felt like you must.

Anywho, got to try my weird outflanking Catachan guard horde list. Pretty fun, need to play some more games to know if it's actually good but I got 82 pts vs a DG list, so it's a promising start. List for those wondering. Plan on dropping one guard squad, the plasma pistols, and marbo to fit in 3 more bullgryn

Spoiler:

Brigade: Catachan

-1cp tank ace

Hq
*Straken
*Company commander plasma pistol/powerfist
*Company commander plasma pistol/powerfist
*Company commander plasma pistol/powerfist Warlord:no warlord trait, traded for second manticore ace
*Marbo


Troops
X11 Infantry squad:melta/power sword


Elites
*X3 Bullgryn: mail/shield
*Priest
*Priest
*Priest
*Harker


Fast attack
*Artemis patter hellhound w/hull flamer
*Artemis patter hellhound w/hull flamer
*Artemis patter hellhound w/hull flamer


Heavy support
*Manticore: Full payload ace w/hull flamer, hunter killer missile, auger array
*Manticore: Full payload ace w/hull flamer, hunter killer missile, auger array
*HWS w/mortars

Whole idea is to put about 50 guardsmen, a couple buff characters, and something like a Hellhound or two in reserve, deploy the rest. You can vary this too, you could throw all 3 Hellhounds in for example, or even all 3 Hellhounds with say 30 guardsmen and a company commander. The cp really is a small price to pay for the mobility it gives. You could also hold back the Bullgryn if you expect lots of units going into your backline to pick off the manticores for example. 50 guardsmen, a company commander, and a priest is 19pl for 2cp, you really can't beat that (sorry tallarn)


One game, even a very effective one, is not a trend, I plan to keep trying this them for a while and let you know how it goes. I will say Catachans do it very well, you can pack a really solid second wave into 3-4cp and just overwhelm the opponent. It's basic tactics, a large army hitting over a wide front where the elite opponent can't be everywhere at once, but it won't work vs everyone. We played mission 9 which felt very well suited to this approach. You could always just deploy the whole army if needed but I feel like you want at least 30 guardsmen or so for grabbing late objectives in reserve.

Random small things
*Meltas only got off maybe 3 real shots all game, easily made their points back and then some by nailing careless characters on the flanks. Melta hedge may have some merit again, not sold yet though
*Power swords were ok, but death guard didn't really give them a chance to shine.
*The manticores are insane. It's like having two hammer of sunderance that don't even need to see the target and are S10. Mvp's easy, especially with new LOS
*Bullgryn are a key unit for pure IG, I would say borderline autoinclude. I plan on bumping up to 6 immediately. We need a bully unit to push the center, they're very good at it, especially with Catachan support.
*Artemia hellhounds are very good at making no go zones for the opponent. Park them on objectives the opponent wants to hold and basically threaten to kill everyone nearby by charging their melee powerhouse units. May be one of the better choices for reserve but they have merit as an initial deployment too, still figuring out ideal way to run them.
*It's weird running a guard list that's not super heavy on an initial alpha strike but it was a lot of fun. Even if this doesn't turn out to be a super optimal way to play, I'd highly encourage guard players to try it, it's not something the average person expects IG to do. 9th gives us a lot more options how to play, we don't need to limit ourselves to gunlines and killpoints.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/25 14:12:58


Post by: Stevefamine


To get more midfield I'm running + 2 Hellhounds and looking into sentinals


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/25 17:37:44


Post by: Gnollu


Leaving CC behind obscuring terrain with vox team near can protect Grand Strategist WL while still being able to issue orders. Also it could potentialy deny the enemy 3 points for assasinate secondary (and we usually field some easy to kill characters). OTOH one need 2 vox casters (transmitter and receiver) to actually benefit from them. It is worth looking into IMO


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/25 20:34:51


Post by: Arcanis161


Ok, so mostly posting because my phone doesn't want me to see the rest of the thread; it's simply showing me a cached version and I can't get out of it, so this is an attempt to do so. Might as well ask a question while I'm at it.

There's a lot of talk regarding Crusaders, but last edition, they were worse Bullgryns. If I don't have Bullgryns yet, but do have Crusaders, can I just bring those or do I desperately need the Bullgryns too?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/25 21:01:39


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I am posting this half to test if the thread is really cache-locked for some reason, and half to answer a question about vox casters.
In nine, I believe vox caster use can be a gaurd strategy to minimize the bleeding of VP points that having our commanders up near the front lines (3vp each one dead) otherwise makes very easy. It even gives a possible role for a cheap, hide it out of line of sight command squad with a voxcaster, to put near the officer in cover somewhere, thus protecting him and extending range to the main body of troops up ahead.

This is also a test. To see if I can read it myself, once its posted.

Edit. Insaniak the Mod reported this was a known glitch and has repaired the thread, so it can be read normally and posted to normally again!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crusaders.
Cheaper.
More attacks.
Harder to kill the same value of points (each shot from a shadowsword still only can kill 1 crusader when it passes the invuln)
Easier by far to shuttle aroudn the board (drop from a valkyire to take the backfield objective on turn 1, even, and use your crazy resilience ot hold it. Try stuffing enough bullygryn in valkyries to do that, bucko!)

10 crusaders + minispriest + astropath (+1 to save including invuln) can be really hard to shift, and costs ... ah .. I think 260 points?

I think bullygryn may be a better offense weapon, but you could build an army with these guys to camp a pair of objectives and then throw the rest of your effort into offense.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/26 08:03:52


Post by: Gibblets


I'm convinced one of the best regiments for 9th is Valhallan. Their order is great, fire into a combat hitting friendlies on 1s. Artifact lets you use conscripts and the strat lets you bring them back onto a home objective later. The WL trait is a defensive buff, never bad (use Tank Ace ability instead). Finally, the regimental trait is solid, 1/2 the models flee from morale and vehicles double #'s of wounds for dmg table stats.

Lastly I have a question I need sorted, can a hull mounted Heavy Flamer fire in combat like a Heavy Bolter can?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/26 08:08:33


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Gibblets wrote:
I'm convinced one of the best regiments for 9th is Valhallan. Their order is great, fire into a combat hitting friendlies on 1s. Artifact lets you use conscripts and the strat lets you bring them back onto a home objective later. The WL trait is a defensive buff, never bad (use Tank Ace ability instead). Finally, the regimental trait is solid, 1/2 the models flee from morale and vehicles double #'s of wounds for dmg table stats.

Lastly I have a question I need sorted, can a hull mounted Heavy Flamer fire in combat like a Heavy Bolter can?
FWIW the trait is actually non-functional in 9th. Attrition losses aren't prevented by it, you only get to halve the single loss to a morale test failure, which is useless.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/26 10:50:50


Post by: Pyroalchi


And yes, heavy flamers on vehicles can fire into melee


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/26 16:30:34


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Gibblets wrote:
I'm convinced one of the best regiments for 9th is Valhallan. Their order is great, fire into a combat hitting friendlies on 1s. Artifact lets you use conscripts and the strat lets you bring them back onto a home objective later. The WL trait is a defensive buff, never bad (use Tank Ace ability instead). Finally, the regimental trait is solid, 1/2 the models flee from morale and vehicles double #'s of wounds for dmg table stats.

Lastly I have a question I need sorted, can a hull mounted Heavy Flamer fire in combat like a Heavy Bolter can?

TL;DR
If you are in an insanely aggressive turn 1 charge meta, Valhallans are your huckleberry. They will infuriate people because you are essentially ignoring a lot of the weaknesses people count on exploiting to defeat IG. If you are in a shooting or more defensive meta, aka lots of Tau gunlines, other IG, eldar, etc. Valhallans are not very good as their abilities rely on defense and if you're on the defense against these armies it doesn't go well. These metas want Cadians or Catachans because when you get the chance to shoot something you need to shoot it as hard as possible.

*Infantry trait is terrible because morale is a joke
*Tank trait is good in some situations, bad in others, I'd rather have offensive buff usually. It is somewhat offset with new blast rules
*order is excellent, main reason to run them
*The strategem is completely useless. It's not even getting a long explanation, it doesn't function in competitive play. The unit needs to die and that means you have to save reinforcement points for it. If you want reserves (which is what the Valhallans strat essentially does) just bring the unit and stick it in actual reserves for less CP
*If heavy flamer has blast, far as I understand no it can't fire in combat. If it doesn't have blast, then yes.

Long version

As a guy who played Valhallans quite a bit in 8th, theyre really not helped by 9th, if anything their trait is less useful. Not quite as pointless as the tallarn trait feels in 9th sometimes, but it's close.

Morale is a joke this edition, and that's an accomplishment considering 8th was pretty pointless itself. Conscripts can survive battleshock with only a few casualties that would've wiped then out entirely last edition with 0 support. Even if they're running on 1's and 2's, you're only losing about a 1/3 of the unit to morale at any given time. Having that halfed isn't completely useless, but often you'll only save 1-2 guardsmen with it. Simply put, any ability affecting morale is pointless for IG. Ironically it can scare more elite units the most, since if you can force a morale check on a marines unit and they're unluckly they could lose 2-3 marines where they only lost one before, but it's extremely rare. The relic pistol, formerly excellent for conscripts, is now pretty pointless.

Their tank trait is useful, but I don't think it's enough to outshine Cadians, Catachans, custom regiments, and maybe Vostroyans. The tank ability only works when you're taking hits. Turn 1 if you get the initial volley you're stuck with stock tanks which means you're going to have to weather more return fire when the opponent shoots back. It's a fun trait, and gives you some real staying power, but I still believe the competitive choice is getting your damage in first, not trying to stick around when the opponent swings back. But you can definitely make it work, you just need to build around it. A Valhallan tank company with a mix of hellhounds, russes, and manticores can be an absolute bear to grind down because you HAVE to kill the tanks to shut them up. However with the new strat that lets a tank act at full damage profile, Valhallans are less of a necessity than they used to be. Usually you'll only have 1-2 damaged tanks at a time, most players will want to finish them off. It's not like the opponent is just going to knock exactly 9 wounds off every tank and call it a day after all. The Valhallans tank trait shines when you're not very likely to go first and will need as many tanks as possible firing at full BS for the counterattack. With who goes first or second basically being a coinflip and hit mods capped at -1, staying at the top profile on basic tanks isn't quite as life or death as it used to be.

Finally, the order, which is good. It has saved my bacon multiple times in 8th. My meta is insanely aggressive, almost every player has turn 1 charges that WILL make it to your backline one way or another. If you are in an aggressive meta, this is the main reason you would run Valhallans. Properly used with plasma/melta SWS, vets, and command squads, you can bail most of your key damage units out of sticky situations, and you can essentially ignore lone survivors tagging a unit to stop shooting. Unless GW has changed how the rules for shooting work this edition, as long as you didn't fall back and there's no enemy models within an inch, you can shoot. This means killing a smash captain that tagged a Russ to shut it up, killing a few assault marines that tagged a manticore to shut it down a turn, a few lone marines bogging down your Bullgryn to keep them from charging a death company squad, etc. Combined with some primaris pyskers and astropaths, you should be very difficult to lock down in melee. In fact, you'll often find it an advantage, as it will throw a lot of people off balance, and make a player who is by all rights winning feel like he's getting shut down at every turn. By all means, the order isn't perfect, if the opponent has no melee it's pointless, but it is an excellent tool in the toolbox that should not be underestimated. Far as I'm aware, Valhallans are the only army in the game that can target a different melee with shooting attacks, and most people have never fought them at all. It's a very nasty surprise and should 9th turn into another edition of hyper aggressive turn 1 assaults, it's game changing. You will see players, especially in casual metas, instantly go on tilt the first time they see you hose off a leman Russ and then say "right, since that Russ didn't fall back and it's now not in melee, it's going to shoot you." You're essentially telling the opponent "all those cute little tricks like consolidation and tripointing won't save you now."



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/28 07:52:40


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Has anyone seen the new crusaders data sheets? I am very curious if its known how their storm shields will update, how many wounds they will have, etc.

My suspicion is we may not get a real answer till a 9 codex for gaurd drops.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/28 12:12:18


Post by: BaconCatBug


Dukeofstuff wrote:
Has anyone seen the new crusaders data sheets? I am very curious if its known how their storm shields will update, how many wounds they will have, etc.

My suspicion is we may not get a real answer till a 9 codex for gaurd drops.
I think all the "updates" to gear such as Flamers and Storm Shields will come via errata updates when the new SM codex actually drops.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/28 20:39:06


Post by: JohnnyHell


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Gibblets wrote:
I'm convinced one of the best regiments for 9th is Valhallan. Their order is great, fire into a combat hitting friendlies on 1s. Artifact lets you use conscripts and the strat lets you bring them back onto a home objective later. The WL trait is a defensive buff, never bad (use Tank Ace ability instead). Finally, the regimental trait is solid, 1/2 the models flee from morale and vehicles double #'s of wounds for dmg table stats.

Lastly I have a question I need sorted, can a hull mounted Heavy Flamer fire in combat like a Heavy Bolter can?
FWIW the trait is actually non-functional in 9th. Attrition losses aren't prevented by it, you only get to halve the single loss to a morale test failure, which is useless.


You should try reading FAQs.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/28 21:47:23


Post by: Grimskul


 Gibblets wrote:
I'm convinced one of the best regiments for 9th is Valhallan. Their order is great, fire into a combat hitting friendlies on 1s. Artifact lets you use conscripts and the strat lets you bring them back onto a home objective later. The WL trait is a defensive buff, never bad (use Tank Ace ability instead). Finally, the regimental trait is solid, 1/2 the models flee from morale and vehicles double #'s of wounds for dmg table stats.

Lastly I have a question I need sorted, can a hull mounted Heavy Flamer fire in combat like a Heavy Bolter can?


Gotta disagree with you here, firing into combat is even less relevant than it was before now that vehicles can fire into melee on their own. For infantry, you already have "Get Back in the Fight' as an order to make you sure don't lose shooting efficiency from units that are engaged and conscripts still being the same cost of infantry squads while being strictly inferior (especially with regards to being more vulnerable to blast weapons) means that you're better off just taking regular infantry squads. Don't forget that the Valhallan strat explicitly forces you to pay reinforcement points for them, so it's not like Tide of Traitors where you can get a new unit for free. Finally, given how morale has actually become better for horde-type armies, you're even less likely to lose models from morale now compared to before, so you're really only getting the most out of the double wounds with regards to damage tables for vehicles.

Right now Catachan seems to be the one of the top choices since they're the most aggressive and able to contest middle objectives with cheap buffable CC infantry and consistent damage with the reroll for one of the D6 for Type weapons.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/28 22:17:22


Post by: JohnnyHell


Catachan is probably still best for those reasons.

Valhallan is fun if your opponent can’t drop your vehicles in a turn, as they keep on fighting at much better stats. If they have lots of AT fire it is less cool.

I’ve found Cadian less useful as I need to go get stuff, not just castle up and let Scions do the work elsewhere on the field.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/28 22:36:14


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Yeah I definitely feel like Catachans are the top tier choice. Their guardsmen can do a bit of everything and that's pretty important in 9th from what I've seen. Cheap, mobile, shooty, and stabby, at least to justify their cost, and if you bring enough they can be fairly durable even with all the doom and gloom people espouse about marines. Most other armies are trending elite, with a couple of units dedicated to horde clearing. Which is where your manticores come in. Neuter the dedicated anti horde units and you can probably buy your guardsmen enough time to have some survive into T5, especially if you're making proper use of reserves.

I'm still not sure what exactly do vs super elite GK and Custodes armies other than just swarm the objectives and scream "you can't kill all of us." I guess I'll find out with this new league my area is starting up, we have a few of both


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/29 00:30:45


Post by: Razerous


My thoughts on Infantry squads is.. they are rubbish. Just a bit too pricey, the lasgun is just a bit too weak etc. etc.

But I am very sad... does the rule of 3 apply to special weapon squads. So the post I'd just written, about how magic 8 of them swarming the board or terrorising strategic reserves (for 1 command point), is moot?



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/29 05:29:30


Post by: Maxzero



The rule of 3 does apply to SWS unfortunately.

AM would be a much stronger and flexible army if SWS and HWS ignored the rule of 3 restriction and/or could be taken as a troop choice (maybe as a kind of attachment to an infantry squad).

Then again only Marines tend to get characterful and unique options like that


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/29 05:52:55


Post by: Arcanis161


Vets as troops again would be a big plus.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/29 06:03:15


Post by: Esmer


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Far as I'm aware, Valhallans are the only army in the game that can target a different melee with shooting attacks


The Purge can do the same I believe.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/29 08:03:55


Post by: hangnailnz


Makes you wish for the old fashioned platoon structure, where you could get your PCS, 2-5 Infantry squads, up to 1 unit of conscripts and then an allowance of SWS and HWS per platoon... All for a single Troops slot.
Of course that couldn't possibly work for more than a couple of editions, so they broke it up and stand alone Conscripts became an issue they had to price out of existence.
Platoons brought balance and structure to Guard armies that made them feel like something different. [sigh]


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/29 22:10:01


Post by: ArikTaranis


Are people thinking the new FW imperial armour book will reinstate the Gorgon Heavy Transport? Its points seem to be absent from the latest update and the datasheet isn't in the warhammer app. It is however still for sale on the FW website, and I'm wondering if it will become a Krieg exclusive unit.

I love the model and would like to include one or two (or three!) in a list, even if they're sub-par choices. I know Guard super heavies are pretty average with the huge CP costs now and points increases.They do however have a very resilient profile with the vast number of wounds and the built in invulnerable save, which I figure could be more useful in 9th for holding objectives. I just hope they don't get squatted.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/30 06:57:53


Post by: MrMoustaffa


ArikTaranis wrote:
Are people thinking the new FW imperial armour book will reinstate the Gorgon Heavy Transport? Its points seem to be absent from the latest update and the datasheet isn't in the warhammer app. It is however still for sale on the FW website, and I'm wondering if it will become a Krieg exclusive unit.

I love the model and would like to include one or two (or three!) in a list, even if they're sub-par choices. I know Guard super heavies are pretty average with the huge CP costs now and points increases.They do however have a very resilient profile with the vast number of wounds and the built in invulnerable save, which I figure could be more useful in 9th for holding objectives. I just hope they don't get squatted.

I don't think it's getting squatted. They just did another run of that model a few months ago and it sold like crazy. I even bought one. I think the GW app is just missing it, shocking, the GW app being messed up I know

I plan on using mine for apoc but at 2k I just can't think of a way to justify the thing. Either you take it by itself so it doesn't get regiment bonuses and costs cp, or you take it alongside a couple baneblades or something and pretty much everything you have aside from the 3 superheavies rides in the gorgon. Anything you want to take in the gorgon is usually better just walking, even Bullgryn. At 320pts with the mortars, I can take 7 Bullgryn with change. At that point I may as well just double down on Bullgryn and March something like 20 of them across the table.

I'm not really sure how you make it competitive without making it heavy support or a dedicated transport. It's just way too big of an investment in the superheavy category between the points, cp, and slot.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/30 07:54:27


Post by: Pyroalchi


I also like the model very much and would like to get one but I too think it's not really a points efficient choice.

One thing I thought about with it that might (!) be of some use is kind of "slingshotting" units that are on foot.
The thing is 200mm long as far as I know (8''). So a Bullgryn Squad for example that is <9'' behind a Gorgon can move 6'', get within 3'' of the Gorgon, embark. Next round they can disembark within 3'' of the other end and then move. So they gain 3+3+8 = 14'' of movement.
Also whatever is embarked has quite a large area were they can possibly disembark which might from time to time be practical. Also judging from the image on the Forgeworld website it might be high and wide enough to obscure line of sight at least for chimeras, maybe even for a Leman Russ and definitly for heavy weapons squads and the like. Depending on terrain one might be able to completly block parts of the board.
All in all those are just some ideas how to put it to use if you have it, I don't argue that it's a really competetive choice.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/31 22:10:46


Post by: Billagio


Very strange there is seeming disconnect about Guardsmen. Some feel theyre terrible and die too fast to be worth anything (especially in 9th where obsec is king), and some feel that theyre way too under costed.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/31 22:39:43


Post by: morpheusgotmeout


 Billagio wrote:
Very strange there is seeming disconnect about Guardsmen. Some feel theyre terrible and die too fast to be worth anything (especially in 9th where obsec is king), and some feel that theyre way too under costed.


Usually people say they're undercosted in the same sentence as mentioning MoveMoveMove or FRFSRF. But that requires a commander, which these people never factor in the cost of. An infantry squad model that can MoveMoveMove is 6.4 points minimum, not 4. It also requires putting a character in a vulnerable position, likely to give away victory points.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/08/31 22:54:57


Post by: leerm02


You know I started my guard army under the idea that I would have a tiny infantry contingent and a ton of tanks...

And now I have 3 tanks and almost a hundred frikkin infantry...

What can I say? Guardsmen: they get the job done :-)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/15 21:37:21


Post by: godardc


Hey guys, I've just read the free 9th rules. I have a vehicles heavy army and was wondering what do you think about that with your experience (as I have actually 0 game of 9th).
I guess now flamers are definitely better than heavy bolters for vehicles ?
I'm kinda disappointed battle cannons can't shoots into melee...
I did invest in infantry (around 70-80 guys) in 8th edition.
So should I keep my vehicles on the shelf ?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/16 00:43:37


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Iposted an army I think is not terrible in ninth with vehicles over in that army list thread, but basically,
manticore is a solid pick with full payload
basilisks are out .. its 1/2 the manticore firepower with 80 percent the price.
wyverns are .. .situational (good for hordeclear, bad for firing at angry marine ravengaurd terminators)
LRTC are solid, LRBT are solid (although some peopel don't like em!),
dual flamer chimera are solid, especially as they help hold objectives by gaurding the obsec troops a bit longer.
hellhounds seem solid

So don't give up on vehicles! They aren't actually worse than they were in the new marine meta, because all the heavy bolters will be picking off 18 poitn marines instead of the old heavy bolters picking off 1/2 a primaris a hit. And there are not many armies where doing a second point of damage is particularly bad -- even FNP spam like death gaurd doesn't appreciate having to roll the die twice.
Its maybe a disapointment that they can't shoot blast weapons in melee, but its not NEW to gaurd to want to keep the tanks out of melee with the enemy thunderhammers, so its not like that changes much in playstyle to be told "if you get into combat with a thunderhammer captain, your ability to do him a couple of wound a turn with your 3 heavy flamers will not save you long." and there won't be much tank left after it does, if it does.

Heavy bolters will soon do 2 damage a shot -- so a lot of them firing together is a pretty useful thing. If you have for example 5 Leman russ with 3 each, and 2 manticores (they don't HAVE to stay on the back row, as they can move and fire) and a wyvern, that is 18x3 or 54 shots of s5/-1/2 piled on top of your normal fire -- and that can be enouhg to finish a big target or seriously mess up enemy screens.
When you consider BS3+/4+ and put harkness down amidst the tanks, you can expect that fleet of armor to hit about 35 times per turn -- while moving away from a charging enemy -- and firing all its other guns as well.
That's pretty effective, enough to kill a couple hundred poitns of marine a turn, and its hard for them to kill that with bolterswarm.

So I think maybe vehicles are not horrible this edition! The sample list I put over there would have to be cagey to keep its objectives from many armies, but solidly able to strip cover and a lot of heavy bolters = a lot of dead anythings. So you have a strong tank phase in a panzer army.
An enemy would probably pick thin the ranks agains it that sample army, and it probably won't leap to win tournaments, but it could be surprisingly good, too, if you play it carefully and pull all the tricks out.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/16 11:20:51


Post by: godardc


Indeed I have seen your list !
And ..good point about the heavy bolter, I wasn't seeing it like that but it does make sense. Thx !


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/16 17:12:07


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


So I just bought the SGT. Ripper Jackson model, and I don't want to open it because I want to see if it goes up in value in the future. What are her rules, is she a regular 'chan guard sgt, it appears she has preset weapons, so I am guessing RF1 S4 AP0 D1 bolter, S3 AP0 D1 pistol1, And 2+1 attacks with a S4 chainsword. Is that about it?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/17 05:10:10


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Yeah realizing our artillery tanks can move and shoot 12" with 0 penalties was a lot of fun. It's crazy how maneuverable they are, you wouldn't think 12" movement on a manticore would mean that much but its really handy to keep them hidden. Honestly full payload manticores are so good I struggle to see how you don't just immediately stick two in a list from the get go and build the rest of the list from there. You at least need one, I can't see any ace ability being more useful than that for the first tank ace.

The new weapon profiles we inherit from the space marines will be fun, but I worry if points will go up to reflect this. Oh well, massed heavy bolters are actually interesting now and the HK missile got a straight upgrade, as did flamer weapons. I still think infantry flamers are pointless but tanks getting 12" heavy flamers is nice.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/17 09:34:39


Post by: Dukeofstuff


In a counter position that also has to be factored, the boards are smaller now. They are also far more crowded with terrain much of which can block line of sight if you are not within that terrain. So a lot of things like leman russ, or massed heavy bolters, has a weakness as well -- that being, you can't necessarily bring it all to bear like we used to do in the very open (comparitively) terrain of 8 and on the larger board. (Cause even if you are "within" terrain that blocks line of sight, you can't draw line of sight where you can't see line ... of sight).

Manticores don't have this problem, basilisks, mortars and wyvern don't, but even massed fire from infantry or a massed drop (MY favorite) by scions becomes difficult to pull off.
So picking a nice custom regiment that can do its stuff out to 18 inches, and bringing a horde of such troops, AND a couple flamer tanks, and a couple of leman russ, might end up forcing a real limit on how much you can concentrate forces locally in the board to bring it to bear.

Yeah, I know this isn't "new" comment -- but its something we shouldn't forget as we discuss "do we keep the vehicles in play" and "how much".

I put a very silly army (it starts with only 1 unit on the board) in the list to make this point today ... cause once you have that stormlord full of expensive elites, characters, and such, you have to bring another massive amount of infantry on from strategic reserves, or deepstrike, so much so that you are basically covering the board in troops on turn 2 -- finding places to do that will be HARD. So lets say your enemy has screened his backside (that's going to happen, just by virtue of his being there, most armies that are NOT marines, anyway) .. his death gaurd little stuff is everywhere and has occupied the walls up the sides and moved into the center.

Now your serious deepstrike army can only nibble at the edges of the enemy, dropping in 9+ inches away and firing plasma, and your serious side reserve army can come in -- but only along your deployment zone or along the first maybe 1/3 of the two sidewalls of the game.

If your army, by comparison, were a lot of leman russ, and a lot of chimera, you could find yourself very stuck trying to maneuver past his approaching infantry to get at ... well, anything.

Conversely, if you are going to have a bunch of crusaders get stuck in by the enemy, valhallans behind them could be the real hidden gem of this game, pouring plasma fire and heavy weapons fire (under ordres) into the melee, while the enemy is frustratedly unable to get past their amazing shields and the +1 save effect from their dedicated astropath. I don't think that works as well with the bullygrn bomb, simply becuase if you are taking the occasinal melta, you would rather have that melta kill only 1 20 point model rather than a bullyboy.

I don't mean to throw this whole debate open again, really, but, sort of its all something not to overlook as we theoryhammer in here. But yeah, a air of manticore with full payload blazing away, becomes all the more useful.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/17 10:33:46


Post by: some bloke


Hey everyone! I'm re-kindling my imperial guard army (which may or may not be a little shorter and greener than normal...)and I'm looking to work out what to add to make my current collection a bit more competitive:

Spoiler:

company commander, plasma pistol, power sword
lord commissar

Infantry squad, grenade launcher, vox caster
infantry squad, plasma gun, vox caster
Infantry squad, flamer, vox caster

command squad, h. flamer, medi-pack, vox
command squad, plasma gun, mortar
platoon commander, laspistol
5 ratlings
tech-priest enginseer

2 armoured sentinels with lascannons

1 wyvern/hydra

valkyrie, hellstrike missiles, multi laser
valkyrie, multiple rocket pods, multilaser

4 chimeras, track guards. one with heavy flamer, the rest heavy bolter.


I barely used this army before, in 7th, so it's very new to me really. What sort of things should I invest in next? I'm still not used to the way command squads and the commanders are separate now, not sure if it's worth having the command squads any more or whether t combine the models into a unit of veterans?

What do you all recommend?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/17 11:24:34


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ some bloke

It might be good to wait a bit how everything settles, but I think (!) some special weapons teams with meltas or plasma could be good. Both are pretty cheap now and you got the chimeras to bring the meltas in range anyway. Unfortunatly as far as I know there are only one of these weapons each in a command squad kit, so it might be advisable to look at bits site or third party companies.

I also think the mortar in the command squad can go to one of the infantry squads or a heavy weapons squad. The command squad dudes are (again: I think) better of with plasma were their better BS really counts.

With the changes to vehicles, Leman Russ are still great. And now they can not be "deactivated" by being touched. So that would also be a good Investment.

And as MrMoustaffa rightfully reported: the Manticore seems to be pretty awesome currently.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/17 14:32:04


Post by: Dukeofstuff


What to invest in next?
Some consideration for what gaurd regiment you prefer. Catachan is VERY strong now, and invites bringing straken and a ministerium priest as characters.
But in any case.
manticore with the stratagem for full payload (up to 2) are GREAT. I totally two thumbs up this choice. If your buddy wants to sell you a basilisk you could run one with full payload as well, but its going to be less of a spicey meatball.
Bullygrn are great. The gaurd lacks resilience for holding objectives in this edition and 6 bullygrn give you that resilience back, so 2 boxes of that? Not the worst choice ever, and fairly easy to get going with. 2+ armor or 4++ invuln, you choice, and bullygryn mauls rock.
A start collecting gaurd or tempest scions box is a good buy pricewise, and neither astra militarum start box is bad. Both have a free commisar in them as a bonus, and he can trundle along as a lord commisar for a cheap melee unit that carries a plasma pistol or bolter pistol, and a powersword. A nice addition to a growing but small gaurd army, even if you don't end up keeping him in competitive lists "someday"
Personally, I would totally go for the scions detachment -- I would get one (ONE) starter box and here is how I would use it for total maximum output.
Lambda lions detachments get ap-1 extra to every single weapon, melee or shooting, infantry or vehicle, so its a good start point.
You can do it "traditional" with a patrol, troop choice included,
Spoiler:

lambda lions .. 1 extra point of ap on everything, an excellent special strategy, and see also tempestor relic and trait (both worth it)
tempestor prime with command rod and powersword(50 points). You can give him a warlord trait and a relic for 1 cp each, that gives a 6 inch 5++ aura for all lambda lions models, and a reroll to hit of 1 for all lambda lions models. So he is pretty awesome.
4 man command squad with 2 hotshotvolleyguns and 2 grenade launchers (this puts out 8 shots s4/-3/1 and 2d6 blast shots s3/-1/1 (or 2 s6/-2/d3 in krak mode. Its pretty solid for a 60 point unit and you have the spec weapons to build it straight out the box)
5 man scions squad with 2 plasma rifles (or 2 melta) and a plasma pistol and a powersword. Your traditional troop with obsec choice, 75 points
taurox with gatling cannon, 2 hotshotvolleyguns, and stormbolter. 125 points. After you step the tempestor prime out beside it, this baby shoots 8 s4/-3/1 shots and 22 (or close, 24) s4/-1/1 shots.
310 points + of course another 35 for a plasma pistol/powersword commisar elite character.

OR, more radically, you could make an elites detachment from this starter kit, with the following makeup, still lambda lions.(but no obsec in the rush to arm everyone with something special.)
Spoiler:

tempestor prime A (the warlord trait -1 cp, and relic -1 cp) and a plasma pistol and powerfist 55
tempestor prime B (plasma pistol and powerfist) 55 (both these guys will fight together, so they both have 5++ shields and between them, are not a bad melee beatstick.
command squad A (2 grenade launcher and hotshotvolleygun) 60 points (against a large group of infantry, a reliable 14 shots per turn, all ap-1 to ap-3)
comand squad B (2 meltaguns and 2 plasma guns) 80 points (you get this one in close against the enemy's heavies, and delete those same).
the commisar (with his plasma pistol and powersword) fills out the detachment as the third elite unit, he's a not so expensive 35 points for a decent melee/shooty little guy.
taurox prime with gatling gun turret and 2 heavy bolter and stormbolter 125
so total of 410 points of gaurd for a 100 dollar purchase

Why lambda lions?
Spoiler:

Lambda lions are a fairly strong gaurd addition right now -- they can deepstrike, they shoot at bs3+, they have better armor, blah blah, but mainly, they add zip and punch to the somewhat lackluster shooting of the guard troops. The surprising flexibility of gaurd with just option B in play can drop in a lot of stuff where your foe least expects or desires it, and even if not near the warlord, the taurox puts out a solid 32 good shots a round. Perhaps it gives you a chance to shoot up his backfield as a sudden move. Perhaps you reinforce the troops that are being threatened with overrun in your deploy zone. Perhaps he has to be ready for either, so his effort is split up. Its nice.
Its not a LOT of models ot assemble and paint, and you can always pick the more traditional imperial gaurd regular starter box (100 bucks for a leman russ (strong) and a squad of infantry with grenade launcher and heavy weapon (probably heavy bolter) with commisar is not bad. There are other scion subgroups that may be as strong or stronger when you get so many plasma and hotshotvolleygun and melta gun that you can saturate your force with those, but if you are just buying one little box, there are real advantages to the lambdas' force field, built in rerolls, and extra ap on the frag grenades and taurox.

I really like the scions -- that little kit gives you deep strikes, a load of special weapons, a load of anti-infantry shooting, some good anti-armor, and a shooty transport that moves a bit faster than chimeras, as well as 3 decent melee guys who can heroically intervene to protect a contested objective in ninth.

So if I were you, I would probably get 2 manticores, 3 bullygryn, and a starterbox of scions .. which would be about 250ish bucks for 700 points of gaurd heavy firepower(prices may be a bit innaccurate!). While your current army isn't competitive -- I think either starter kit + 2 manticore / full payloads would get you to the point that you forces would be able to show up at local game store tourney and maybe not lose every game. (Still a ways from a tuned "gonna beat marines" army, so you ain't winning the tournament but you would at least be able to have fun and not get just skunked). I would probably run the taurox as a transport to move the bullgygrn and the commisar to the place you want to contest control of a midfield objective, and then also bring some mechanized gaurd troops to support that effort.

Pyrolachi isn't wrong about anything he said there .. the scions kit is my lazy answer to "I wish special weapons".

But in summary (I gave you loadouts for them above) (potentially, for maximal flexibility)
2 tempest prime punchy plasma pistolers
2 command squads with 8 special weapons (even not perfect, that's a lot of punch)
1 taurox (not prime) with 2 autocannon carrying 3 bullygrun and a commisar (this means your melee element isn't particularly more vulnerable or slow than your 4 chimera of troops)
2 manticores with full payload

That would be a real solid addition for not so much money and it uses the generous sprue weapons mix of the scions almost to its utter maximum. your army gets solid for the cost firepower, and it gets a very competitive armies' indirect fire support, which covers a lot of sins.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/17 14:55:49


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I am betting Priests are going to go way down in usefulness with the new Core rules,same as Straken. It all depends on what classifies as core now. Bullgryns likely wont, or any other elite.

I do think though squads of light Sentinels with heavy flamers and their scout move, with chain blades make a very effective combo for first turn strikes.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/18 06:15:48


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am betting Priests are going to go way down in usefulness with the new Core rules,same as Straken. It all depends on what classifies as core now. Bullgryns likely wont, or any other elite.

I do think though squads of light Sentinels with heavy flamers and their scout move, with chain blades make a very effective combo for first turn strikes.

Eh, I doubt it. Straken is there to buff guardsmen, there's no way guardsmen don't get core. SWS and command squads maybe, but if terminators get it I think our specialist squads would be safe. Straken+priests for Catachan should be fine.

Now bullgryns on the other hand, those I doubt have core. We'll see if priests care about core but I'd bet so. Even so, it's hardly the end of the world. Bullgryn get an extra attack on charge anyways and you can just use the points for the priest on an additional Bullgryn. Bullgryn are there to hold things, not kill things. They can absolutely wreck some stuff in melee, but their true value is their ability to just sit on an objective and be annoying to shift. Against true melee powerhouses they're not going to win unless they get a lucky charge, they just need to live long enough to get guns into position to support. They're great at that.

I feel like any guard player for the foreseeable future will want

*6 or so Bullgryn, mix of shields with mauls, perhaps more
*manticore, duh. Probably 2
*Probably need 60 guardsmen minimum, ideally in the 80-100 category, but SWS and HWS can help reduce your reliance on a horde of infantry squads, especially with Bullgryn.

From there it really depends on regiment, your playstyle, and your expected meta. I'd argue you need plasma and melta for infantry, disregard other special weapons entirely. There are lots of options both GW and 3rd party to get lots of weapons. GW actually sells 5 packs of special weapons on their site, but usually it's better to just go through a site like anvil industries, mad robot, Victoria lamb, and get loads of weapons and other bits for cheap.

Think about what you want to do and how you want to do it. Once you've got that solid core you can tailor the rest to taste to support and fill roles specific to your meta.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/18 11:09:26


Post by: Pyroalchi


One half of my homebrew regiment are rather CC oriented lorewise which I so far intended to portrait by them using Death Korps rules for WS3+. Out of curiosity I did some mathhammer to compare this with the "Slum fighters" custom regimental trait. The mean of successful hits is the same as increasing the WS by one on all regimental infantry (which is slightly advantagous as it includes CCs and PCs). But Slum fighters inherits at least a chance to score significanlty more hits than would be expected.
Of course Catachan + Straken should still be much better in CC, but I thought I leave this here for those interested:




Edit: I forgot: this is based on a Standard guard squad without support and a a chainsword on the sergeant. So 11 attacks, no rerolls.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/18 13:06:55


Post by: Esmer


Had a 1000 points against Space Wolves the other day and got badly mauled.He got Turn 1 and reached my lines with his Wulfen the very same turn, tearing through both Bullgyns and Infantry Squads and binding my tanks afterwards.
Due to the abundance of 3+ and 4+ invlns, even my Full Payload Manticore hardly left a mark on him.
Any ideas on how to counter furries for the next time?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/18 13:16:48


Post by: some bloke


 Esmer wrote:
Had a 1000 points against Space Wolves the other day and got badly mauled.He got Turn 1 and reached my lines with his Wulfen the very same turn, tearing through both Bullgyns and Infantry Squads and binding my tanks afterwards.
Due to the abundance of 3+ and 4+ invlns, even my Full Payload Manticore hardly left a mark on him.
Any ideas on how to counter furries for the next time?


Deploy further back, and try to face his fast units with your own. when he moves forwards, pull back. You'll buy yourself an extra turn of shooting. Always avoid deploying as far forward as possible if your opponent wants to make first turn charges! Keep the tanks more than 3" behind the screens, so consolidating doesn't tie them up once the screen's been killed.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/18 14:32:11


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Not going to lie, but any game with Wulfen at less than 2k is basically a wash. Even my Custodes can't stand up to the wave of fur and teeth. Shooting is hard if they have a priest. Basically it's the new WAAC list for sub 2k games.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/18 14:51:59


Post by: Dukeofstuff


All of eighth edition was this exact problem for me, because my very competitive friends played mostly ravengaurd alpha strike centurion spam, which, mathematically, is going to feel a lot like wulfen in invuln shields ripping your tanks and troops apart with massed bolter fire and then big fists .. before you can move.

Its not by chance that I ended up with a force almost entirely in valkyries and with scions -- but remember those are both things that can't be meleed if they are in planes overhead or if they are waiting to strategic reserve in.

So to, your tanks. If he is charging HERE with wulfen, and you happen to have a basilisk in strategic reseve way over THERE, his wulfen are out of position to charge it. One possible but rare strategy might be to leave the manticores in strategic reserve and bring them out where his troops aren't, buying them a few rounds of shooting at his nasty dogs.

How is he getting all the 3and4 invulns? Is it the priest helping -- or are you referring to -1 to be hit in "cloak of the storm"?

Killing an individual priest is a trick, but I note that you can snipe surprisingly well with a loaded commisar + an astropath + a malleus inquisitor set up the way I always use them.
astropath = strips cover and fires malstrom at victim.
commisar = moves a bit closer, shoots pistol 3 times s4/-1/2 as a sniper (yep, that relic pistol nobody remembers, I almost always take)
malleus inquisitor casts castigate (also hits directly the target like malstrom would) and then fires his combimelta as a sniper weapon (probably just the melta part if the priest is causing a -1 to be hit).

Sure, that's an expensive little pack, but if you have a single boss behind enemy lines that is stopping your whole army shooting, you drop 2d3 mortal wounds and then shoot it abotu 4 times in a round, all of it without the benefit of cover and with significant armor penetration. The best part of this is, these 3 guys can rinse and repeat every turn, potentially killing way past their points level in enemy (very surprised) marine captains or tyranid whatever those brainbugs are.

I don't know if wulfenpriests come with invuln, but I bet they don't like meltas.

Once the priest is down, I bet the wolves would be less of a nightmare to shoot -- and shooting is your only real chance in a non-catachan army.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/18 15:15:46


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Once again, your troops are only there to die and hold the line. Have them stop the wulfen at the half way point and then fall back, then have the tanks, wyverns, manticores, and basalisks open up on the exposed wulfen, or the priest if they can't keep up. Also, MW spam the hell out of them if nothing else. You can take three primaris Psykers for roughly nothing, and they can drop a few wulfen before they go down. Finally, if you really wanna good tactic, just don't play wulfen players at that point scale. It's inherently broken towards Wulfen Lists. There is nothing short of a double shooting Storm Lord that even does enought to make it worth it. Even Punishers with double shooting only kill 2-3 on average. And that's with the new Storm shield rules.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/19 04:53:44


Post by: Cothonian


Played my first game in a year... against marines. Wasn't a fun experience in the slightest.

Cover, pointless. Too many dice to survive statistically. Armor, pointless. Same reason: Too many dice. Opponent had a dreadnought with four lascannons hitting on 2+s that was taking out a vehicle each turn. Was tabled by turn three.

Reading through this thread, I'm seeing a few things. It's looking like a thicker line of chaff up front to stall the enemy advance, followed by heavy hitters mopping everything up. Mixing in some Astropaths could help with some of the harder targets.

Maybe some heavy artillery to soften up the targets before they hit my front line? It's really hard fighting at range when nearly every enemy unit is literally killing an entire one of my units each turn.

Other words, rant aside, tips for fighting Space Marines?




Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/19 07:32:49


Post by: Esmer


Dukeofstuff wrote:

How is he getting all the 3and4 invulns? Is it the priest helping -- or are you referring to -1 to be hit in "cloak of the storm"?


Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Storm Shield 3+ invln
Wolf Lord with Belt of Russ 4+ invln

Relic Dreadnought 5+ invln
Wulfen with Storm Shields 3+ invln

About the only things that didn't have invln were 2 MSU troops of Intercessors and a MSU squad of Longfangs

For the next 1000 pts game against him, I'm thinking about a pure Lambdan Lions Plasma spam list, like so:

HQ

Tempestor Prime, Command Rod, WL Keys to the Armoury
Tempestor Prime, Command Rod, Relic Field Generator
Tempestor Prime, Command Rod

TROOPS

10 Scions, Sergeant PlasPistol, 4 PlasGuns
10 Scions, Sergeant Plas Pistol, 4 PlasGuns
5 Scions, Sergeant PlasPistol, 2 PlasGuns
5 Scions, Sergeant PlasPistol, 2 PlasGuns
5 Scions, Sergeant PlasPistol, 2 PlasGuns

ELITES

4 Scions Command Squad, 4 PlasGuns
4 Scions Command Squad, 4 PlasGuns

TRANSPORT

Taurox Prime, Battle Cannon, 2 Autocannons
Taurox Prime, Battle Cannon, 2 Autocannons

Thoughts? I am thinking about the deploying the two 20 man squads and one babysitting Tempestor as gunline, with the two Taurox as stationary battle platforms 6 inches behind them, and airdropping the MSU Scions at suitable locations during Turn 2.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Once again, your troops are only there to die and hold the line. Have them stop the wulfen at the half way point and then fall back, then have the tanks, wyverns, manticores, and basalisks open up on the exposed wulfen, or the priest if they can't keep up. Also, MW spam the hell out of them if nothing else. You can take three primaris Psykers for roughly nothing, and they can drop a few wulfen before they go down.


That seems a really good idea for MW. What's the most reliable MW Psychic Power against Marines, Maelstrom, Gaze of the Emperor or just good old Smite?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/19 12:03:36


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Pyroalchi wrote:
One half of my homebrew regiment are rather CC oriented lorewise which I so far intended to portrait by them using Death Korps rules for WS3+. Out of curiosity I did some mathhammer to compare this with the "Slum fighters" custom regimental trait. The mean of successful hits is the same as increasing the WS by one on all regimental infantry (which is slightly advantagous as it includes CCs and PCs). But Slum fighters inherits at least a chance to score significanlty more hits than would be expected.
Of course Catachan + Straken should still be much better in CC, but I thought I leave this here for those interested:




Edit: I forgot: this is based on a Standard guard squad without support and a a chainsword on the sergeant. So 11 attacks, no rerolls.


Slum fighters + Lord's Approval is the superior melee choice for the guard, warranting the inclusion of Power Swords and Power Fists on Sergeants/Characters and making your 10man infantry squad with a Priest + Officer nearby (which you should have between Company and Platoon Commanders) no slouch in combat and actually capable of damaging things. Catachan for a melee infantry is VERY overrated since S4 alone is inferior to miniTesla + -1 additional AP combo and Straken CAN'T BE EVERYWHERE on the board, so the additional +1 attack is for the most part only available to few units


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/19 13:17:48


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Scions and custom doctrine gaurd "wolfhunters" suggestion. Cause he was nice enough to teach you his force mix and its all marines.

strategic reserves and deepstrike half your army. Don't bother with armor at all, he has easy answers for it and you can't win in melee, so concentrate on killing him with plasma.
Spoiler:
3 wyrdvane psykers (spells known smite, malstrom)
1 aradia madellan psyker primaris character (spells known smite, and +1 to hit for one gaurd troop shooting unit's shooting. wc8)
1 company commander (custom regiment, wilderness survivors and disciplined gunners. Lets call them the wolfhunter clan)
1 command squad wolfhunters with 4 plasma (range 18 can put out 8 shots at bs3+, or bs3+ +1 from madellan)
1 command squad wolfhunters with 4 plasma (ditto)
These guys are going to go after the longfangs, then after intercessors. Ignore his officers for now.
deepstrike
1 tempest prime lambdas with command rod and laurels of command
1 command squad scions lambdas with 4 plasma
1 command squad scions lambdas with 4 plasma
that's only 8 units so far, and around 23 or so powerlevel.
1 platoon commander (wolfhunter) is left on board to justify the extra command squad.
So far, that's 462 points, a whopping total, but your wyrd/psyker duo can put out smite (3+ on 1 d6), smite (wc6, roll at +2), malstrom (wc7, roll at plus 2) and grant a infantry unit +1 to shoot (plasma!) wc8 (but +2) if you spend the 1 cp to double fire their powers. They must be near each other, too.
The command squad scions are going to roll out of deepstrike and kill a dreadnaught -- so --
The order you pass is to reroll all wounds against the dreadnaught, and (4+) a second order to shoot and reroll 1's to hit (safer).


Basically, your enemy can't screen. He has a few intercessors on the board, but is he goign to keep his longfang/dread safe? or is he coming after you?

You kill whichever he doesn't screen well.

Now on board you need "anchor guys"
1 platoon commander (cause you have to) (already paid for above)
1 manticore with full payload (casuse why not, you can shoot it at the dreadnaught or rip up a few intercessors, do NOT target anything with invuln, Except shoot oyur hunter killer missle wiht full payload at the big, bad dread.) Other than that, your mission is to strip away everything elseso he is left unable to easily kill all your stuff with his stuff. I expect its possible you will end up targeting his dread with indirect manti fire, which is still a reasonable kill chance.
150.
The wolfhunters can bring also up to FIVE elite, so you can put a squad of 3 plasma wielding special weapons on the board in the back, tucked in cover somewhere. That's for the platoon commander to order into action when it comes out of hiding to avenge the nearby manticore. (45pts)

Now, you need 5 units more, and oyu have
Spoiler:

second tempest prime (warlord relic and trait of lambda lions. He brings the 5++ shield and the reroll 1's) and a rod of command
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
987 points, enouhg to give your tempests and company commanders each a powersword, I guess.



so, basically, you scatter the manticore near the board edge, and the other scion squads all over the frigging board so the enemey is left unsure where he wants to attack. If he goes after the manticore, you know where his main force is -- and when you drop in turn 2, you kill the dreadnaught and the longfangs in the back and hide from his return fire. Now he has to jog all the way home to kill you, while your 16 plasma and 3d3 mortal wounds pretty much wiped his backfield. In the frontfield, he kills the manticore, but when it dies, your remaining MSU plsams units step into position to plink, plink, plink at his lead elements, and something gets through. Each hit is powerful.

If you prefer, you drop all that @#$ on his lead element turn 2, and crush it. then you can bring your entire army up using cover to suddenly step where you can eradicate the longfangs and any intercessors, and leave his dreadnaught dangerous -- but unable to shoot all the different things oyu have still alive scattered all over.

What do you think? I know its only 26 plasma and that's not a lot, but its also got the manticore and the ability to force the enemy to split means you can concentrate (theoretically) 26 plasma on half his army, if you finesse it right, and pull a nice psyker strike out as well.




Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/19 14:17:48


Post by: Pyroalchi


@Kurtangle: thanks for the headsup. I did not recognized it that way. In that case I have another way of simulating what I want my regiment to be.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/19 16:03:57


Post by: Esmer


Dukeofstuff wrote:
Spoiler:
Scions and custom doctrine gaurd "wolfhunters" suggestion. Cause he was nice enough to teach you his force mix and its all marines.

strategic reserves and deepstrike half your army. Don't bother with armor at all, he has easy answers for it and you can't win in melee, so concentrate on killing him with plasma.
[spoiler]3 wyrdvane psykers (spells known smite, malstrom)
1 aradia madellan psyker primaris character (spells known smite, and +1 to hit for one gaurd troop shooting unit's shooting. wc8)
1 company commander (custom regiment, wilderness survivors and disciplined gunners. Lets call them the wolfhunter clan)
1 command squad wolfhunters with 4 plasma (range 18 can put out 8 shots at bs3+, or bs3+ +1 from madellan)
1 command squad wolfhunters with 4 plasma (ditto)
These guys are going to go after the longfangs, then after intercessors. Ignore his officers for now.
deepstrike
1 tempest prime lambdas with command rod and laurels of command
1 command squad scions lambdas with 4 plasma
1 command squad scions lambdas with 4 plasma
that's only 8 units so far, and around 23 or so powerlevel.
1 platoon commander (wolfhunter) is left on board to justify the extra command squad.
So far, that's 462 points, a whopping total, but your wyrd/psyker duo can put out smite (3+ on 1 d6), smite (wc6, roll at +2), malstrom (wc7, roll at plus 2) and grant a infantry unit +1 to shoot (plasma!) wc8 (but +2) if you spend the 1 cp to double fire their powers. They must be near each other, too.
The command squad scions are going to roll out of deepstrike and kill a dreadnaught -- so --
The order you pass is to reroll all wounds against the dreadnaught, and (4+) a second order to shoot and reroll 1's to hit (safer).


Basically, your enemy can't screen. He has a few intercessors on the board, but is he goign to keep his longfang/dread safe? or is he coming after you?

You kill whichever he doesn't screen well.

Now on board you need "anchor guys"
1 platoon commander (cause you have to) (already paid for above)
1 manticore with full payload (casuse why not, you can shoot it at the dreadnaught or rip up a few intercessors, do NOT target anything with invuln, Except shoot oyur hunter killer missle wiht full payload at the big, bad dread.) Other than that, your mission is to strip away everything elseso he is left unable to easily kill all your stuff with his stuff. I expect its possible you will end up targeting his dread with indirect manti fire, which is still a reasonable kill chance.
150.
The wolfhunters can bring also up to FIVE elite, so you can put a squad of 3 plasma wielding special weapons on the board in the back, tucked in cover somewhere. That's for the platoon commander to order into action when it comes out of hiding to avenge the nearby manticore. (45pts)

Now, you need 5 units more, and oyu have
Spoiler:

second tempest prime (warlord relic and trait of lambda lions. He brings the 5++ shield and the reroll 1's) and a rod of command
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
5 man scions squad with no 2 plasma
987 points, enouhg to give your tempests and company commanders each a powersword, I guess.



so, basically, you scatter the manticore near the board edge, and the other scion squads all over the frigging board so the enemey is left unsure where he wants to attack. If he goes after the manticore, you know where his main force is -- and when you drop in turn 2, you kill the dreadnaught and the longfangs in the back and hide from his return fire. Now he has to jog all the way home to kill you, while your 16 plasma and 3d3 mortal wounds pretty much wiped his backfield. In the frontfield, he kills the manticore, but when it dies, your remaining MSU plsams units step into position to plink, plink, plink at his lead elements, and something gets through. Each hit is powerful.

If you prefer, you drop all that @#$ on his lead element turn 2, and crush it. then you can bring your entire army up using cover to suddenly step where you can eradicate the longfangs and any intercessors, and leave his dreadnaught dangerous -- but unable to shoot all the different things oyu have still alive scattered all over.

What do you think? I know its only 26 plasma and that's not a lot, but its also got the manticore and the ability to force the enemy to split means you can concentrate (theoretically) 26 plasma on half his army, if you finesse it right, and pull a nice psyker strike out as well.



Aren't Wyrdwaves really bad at the whole Psychic thing? At a Warp Charge value of 6, a trio of Wyrdwaves will fail at casting Maelstrom 2 thirds of the time. Wouldn't an Astropath be better?

I should also clarify that at 1000 points, I only use a single , so fielding both a custom regiment and Lambdan Lions won't be possible. Spending 2 CP for a second detachment and another CP for Strategic reserves would mean starting the game with only 50% of CP, which seems to hefty a price.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/19 23:45:53


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I respectfully submit that with the new changes to Melta guns, All Melta murder squads of Tempestus Command teams is now viable.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/20 00:59:36


Post by: BlaxicanX


I would bet money that the only guard infantry that don't get core are conscripts and ogryn/bullgryn.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/20 03:17:10


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I agree about the meltasquads. Command squad with 4 meltas in the doctrine "iotan gorgones" can also use their strat to land right beside the target, and often get to fire at short range as a result, even, and proc extra on natural sixes at the closest target. Obviously, its a smart move to let them fire last!

Wyrdvanes casting get a +2 on their cast to fire off a spell when they use the strategy paired with a psyker, and (if oyu don't cheap out like I recommended) you get ANOTHER +2. So at +4, even a lousy roll is often a hit with malstrom. they are good as the FIRST smite, which has a low WC, or for any spell with a low-ish wc, if you are using that strat.
If you don't plan to do that, a lone astropath with malstrom is much stronger -- but I got 3 of them in a thematic "scions and psykers" army and have enjoyed using them a great deal, simply because they can squeak out a dual cast, and let the psyker cast twice, too, so 2 smites+2 other spells. I confess that army usually has multiple primaris, so I have a lot of flexibility in the spell selection, and I didn't consider too strongly the implications of their craptastic psy power when I made my recommendation.

I concede they have some real drawbacks in ninth in usual games, just figured at 1000 points oyu would be cramming every effect you could into the list to stop these specific werewolven.

As far as having enouhg cp, I am much more comfortable playing with too many plasma and not enough cp, than the reverse!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/20 07:22:55


Post by: Esmer


 BlaxicanX wrote:
I would bet money that the only guard infantry that don't get core are conscripts and ogryn/bullgryn.


Conscripts have been nerfed to oblivion anyway. Ogryns and Bullgryns not getting core would be a shame though, as they are tailor-made for a Priest's aura. What I could see is that Ogryns get core but Bullgryns don't, so people won't always choose Bullgryns by default.

Wyrdvanes casting get a +2 on their cast to fire off a spell when they use the strategy paired with a psyker, and (if oyu don't cheap out like I recommended) you get ANOTHER +2. So at +4, even a lousy roll is often a hit with malstrom. they are good as the FIRST smite, which has a low WC, or for any spell with a low-ish wc, if you are using that strat.
If you don't plan to do that, a lone astropath with malstrom is much stronger -- but I got 3 of them in a thematic "scions and psykers" army and have enjoyed using them a great deal, simply because they can squeak out a dual cast, and let the psyker cast twice, too, so 2 smites+2 other spells. I confess that army usually has multiple primaris, so I have a lot of flexibility in the spell selection, and I didn't consider too strongly the implications of their craptastic psy power when I made my recommendation.


Psyker I assume means Primaris Psyker.

Am I missing something with Wyrdwave rules? I thought it's +1 for units of three or more and +2 for units of six or more, so you will always need at least a 4+ under the best circumstances to cast Maelstrom?

EDIT: Nevermind, I wasn't aware that there's a specific stratagem for Wyrdwaves.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/20 14:28:06


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Its a sort of neat stratagem, but you are probably right that malstrom isn't ideal for it. Something WC 5 or so would be safer. I was trying to squeeze everything in at minimum price -- and you could as easily use a standard psyker primaris as the other half, and cast malstrom off that, instead of the WC8 +1 to hit shenanigan that aradia madellan brings to the table. (I just note that I play against ravengaurd so gosh darn often, beating -1 to hit is part of waking up for breakfast.)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 01:43:17


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I respectfully submit that with the new changes to Melta guns, All Melta murder squads of Tempestus Command teams is now viable.


You'd have to be the tempestas regiment that has the stratagem for a close drop, but maybe. It's a very tight thing there, and I'm not certain you'll find a place within 6" of the tank you want and more than 5" from the enemy.

If I'm that far in on stormtroopers, I'm not sure I'd go for that doctrine, over the one for +6", but then again, I'm planning to use my suicide stormtrooper squads for setting up scramblers, so maybe.

Esmer wrote:Had a 1000 points against Space Wolves the other day and got badly mauled.He got Turn 1 and reached my lines with his Wulfen the very same turn, tearing through both Bullgyns and Infantry Squads and binding my tanks afterwards.
Due to the abundance of 3+ and 4+ invlns, even my Full Payload Manticore hardly left a mark on him.
Any ideas on how to counter furries for the next time?


I'd probably use Scout Sentinels and lots of infantry to catch their charge earlier up on the board before they can get to your other stuff, and then shoot them to death.

You can't give ground freely, because you need to get up and take objectives if you want to win, and you have to be really aggressive about denying the enemy primaries if you want to overcome your inherent weakness against Space Marines on secondaries.




Personally, I've been having a hard time seeing where to go and how to make wins with my IG too. I haven't really had the games in to make full conclusions, but the combination of the overwhelming power of marines and the secondaries being badly stacked against us is rough.

The fact that there are three secondaries that hit us for near full points [Bring it Down, Thin Their Ranks, and Grind Them Down, all of which are trivial to max out against most IG lists and are in 2 different categories, meaning only a third non-gimme needs to be taken [though this also often tends to be a gimme like Scramblers or Engage]] while there's really nothing we can take for and easy full secondary points, or even full points at all, against marines is already tough, and puts us in a position of having to aggressively play the primary for full points for us and deny it to the enemy as much as possible [which could mean taking as many as 5 objectives for most of the game in half the missions, which is a tall order in my experience].

The math on this is:
Our "easy points" are Deploy Scramblers [maximum 10], and Engage on all Fronts [maximum 15, though I think it might be generous to assume we can score fully since we can only have suicide units score those points for so long]. After that, we're kind of spinning our wheels for a third. We could go for Ritual, but it's iffy. We could go Assassinate or Bring it Down, but both are hard and require the enemy to have brought enough 5+ of the unit, which is pretty unlikely for Bring it Down and still not that likely for Assassinate. There's basically nothing in No Mercy No Respite we can do.

So, we need to lead by at least 5, plus whatever the deficit on the third objective will be, in my experience around 10-12 points between the third objective and Engage. So we have to limit the enemy to 30 points on Primary.
On 2/3/More missions, this is a little tough. We absolutely must contest at least 4 objectives and hold 3 for ourselves for at least 3 out of 4 scored turns.
On 1/2/More missions, this feels practically impossible. We absolutely must contest at least 5 objectives and hold at least 2 for ourselves for 3 our of 4 scored turns, and this is doubly hard because these missions tend to have more than one objective in or near the deployment zones so we have to take and hold ground in their deployment zone for basically all game.


Then there's the fact that Scout Sentinels and such are slower than Invictors and Infiltrators and Incursors and such, meaning that we're already starting behind on the primary positioning and starting on the back foot being pushed against in our own deploy zone, which makes it harder to push out and take those objectives we need to early.

And then there's the problem of "how the f*** to I take and hold this damn objective in the first place?" Infantry are thus the obvious choice, but against Intercessors or even just Tactical Marines [especially once tacs go to W2] just don't stand a chance out there and can easily have it taken away from them. It takes about 20 rifles to just hold a point against a single minimum-sized squad of Intercessors [more, much more if the squad has stratagem and character support and you can kiss any chance in hell of holding the point good by if there are Aggressors], and they lose a lot of their number in the process to do pretty minimal damage to the Intercessors. This just isn't a winning proposition to keep up turn after turn, since you can really only keep it up on 3 contested objectives for about 2, if even, before you run out of guys in your Brigade, and I sincerely doubt that we're going to have killed off the Space Marines objective capturing ability by then.




Personally, right now I'm thinking something like Brigade of Catachan with a decent number of Conscripts and a Battalion of Scions. The Scions can drop to score "Deploy Scramblers" and also harass and contest the backfield, pulling units back to clear them, and the infantry can swarm up the board supported by NLoS artillery fire targeting the most critical of enemy units.
Conscripts and Infantry provide enough bodies to suffer the casualties contesting and taking the objectives for turns 2, 3, and 4, and with Catachan we might be able to charge onto objective and force the enemy off of them to further contest and hold those points.
I don't really got anything else, except maybe Scout Sentinels for pushing back the deep strike and Basilisks and Manticores for the hitting power, since the terrain is getting in the way of the Leman Russes really bad.



I don't know. Sorry to be a little negative right now. I just feel like I don't have anything in my court as Guard right now.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 05:03:10


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I can see where you come from ... its probably why I am so far red shifted into scions and (lately) a dkok patrol to add another 12 plasma and 9 hotshotlasguns for 200 points. (That being, I am converting in some other company plastic models that are easy and cheap to work with. I am thrilled!)

So, back to reality, and "gaurd is in trouble in this edition". I think tallarn's ability to move six inches before, or after, shooting, is a huge thing that people are undervaluing as the terrain gets in the way. A 5 inch move isn't huge, but another six inches to round that corner -- or to back away AROUND one after you pop off the cannon .. is HUGE, and can leave you able to shoot and potentially be not shot back. It won't also get you reroll 1's, but you can pair it up easily with the full fire on enemy vehicle stratagem to make a demolisher tank commander into a nasty shock, 12 shots = usually 8 hits = usually 6 saves = most tanks blow the hell up. .. that then scurries out of sight. You can even use it to get your flamertank special (punisher gatling cannon with tank ace ap-1, and 3 heavy flamers and storm bolter) into range to go "fwoosh". Its not single handedly making leman russ great again, but it IS making leman russ more survivable, and some of the tricks like 5 tank commanders orders from 2 tank ace strats == 5 leman russ in a wall moving that extra mile to fire their barrages. You can potenetially bring "enough" firepower to bear with that, and leave it to your enemey to have the problem of getting their remaining units into position to avenge the fallen.


My friend looked at that 1000 point list in battlescribe after he laughed that it was impossible. He was wrong (but he was also right). Just to clear it up, with 5 wulven and the relic dread, you can only fit all that (2 msu intercessors, 1 long fangs, etc) into a list by arming the longfang support troops with actual bolters (cause you can't afford any weapon upgrades at all) and the dreadnaught with only ONE of its two potential guns. He mentioned the wulven were not well equipped wulven either, and that anyone who started more than 3 inches back from their battle line would get to shoot the wulven with everything they had before the wulven could get in range to charge them -- on turn 2.

So the quesiton sort of shifted to "what kills 5 wulven and their friends at range" and it became almost a joke (as we discussed the implications of lots of plasma to the face.) The one relic dreadnaught is hard to kill -- but not THAT hard to kill, relative to its firepower, and pretty much, your armor can run away from 1 squad of wulfen for a time.

Option 1. Weight of frigging fire., Tallarn style.
Spoiler:

tallarn spearhead
tank commander with punisher gatling cannon, tank ace -1 ap, heavy bolter
tank commander with punisher gIatling cannon, tank ace, -1 ap, heavy bolter
company commander tallarn
astropath with malstrom
435 points
6 squads plasma gun and heavy bolter infantry 390
manticore tallarn with hk missle 150

Basically, you are paying to fire a lot of basic weapons at the wolves. The wulfen should take 86 shots off the 2 tanks at s5/-1/x where you can make them both happily move another six inches back .. after firing. So, 57 hits, or about (per turn) some 19 failed saves, with (don't forget) another couple wounds from the heavy bolter contribution. So, basically, those wulven never reach you, EVER. Intercessors might, or whatever, but you have 60 bodies to throw in their way and its no longer a trivial issue for them to sweep you aside. The manticore can play seek and hide with the heavy firepower of the enemy, picking off wulven if need be, or intercessors if need not be.
When you get the enemy whittled down a smidge, you can shove those two punisher tanks up the relic's ass, and let it try to make all those ap-1 saves. (I would probably point the manticore at it a round or two first. but basically, deny the very thin on the ground wolves the ability to control terrain, move back as you fire, and wipe them the hell out. They can't both charge you AND babysit objectives, and if they don't tie your tanks up, you just keep going "brrrrrt" with the gatlings, using the astropath to strip cover, its going to rip their intercessor squads to shreds primaris or not.

A pair of leman russ and a manticore is a VERY gaurd army -- and the wulven won't handle it well at all.
An army similar to the scions and psykers style also would work, something like
Spoiler:

2 tempest primes with command rods
1 psyker primaris
2 command squads of plasma
1 astropath (malstrom)
1 inquisitor with dual psyker attack (castigate and psychic pursuit) and meltagun and force sword (-1 to be wounded relic) (malleus only please = -1cp)
6 x 5 man scions with 2 plasma each. 2 of them also carry plasma pistols.
valkyrie with hellstrike missle, dual heavy bolters, lascannon

This list also doesn't give the wulven the chance to charge, but does it differently. you leave the 2 command squads and a tempest and 3 psykers in the flyer, a bit back, 7 units on the board, and you bring in almost all the 5 man squads from deepstrike. Terrified marines pounded by ap-4 plasma scream and run for cover everywhere -- but the charging vulfen get no real target for their charge, so what can they do but wait for the massive 16 plasma and smite, smite, malstrom, castigate worth of mortal woudns to blow them away? Then load that strike force back up to drop (if you are still having relic dread problems) on the upset marines again on turn 3... Meanwhile, the marines are trying to kill a lot of scions with a lot of plasma using bolters, and 1 shot per turn at 1 enemy unit from the big dreadnaught.


The problem killing a lot of invuln shields is really usually that you have to kill .. a lot ... of dice worth of enemy. Don't give them easy targets. Break your gaurd up into multiple things and run the poor wulven all over the board, something like
Spoiler:

custom regiment +6inch rapidfire effect, reroll 1 die for random shot vehicle weapons)
tank comander with demolisher cannon and 2 plasma cannon and heavy flamer
tank commander with demolisher cannon and 2 plasma cannon and heavy flamer 420. Tank ace is almost superfluous on these bad boys, just make sure they start back the right distance on turn 1.
company commander with powersword and plasma pistol
60 regular gaurd with 6 plasma rifle and 6 plasma pistol
astropath malleus
manticore with full payload / heavy bolter/ hunterkiller missle

Basically, just fall away from the enemy turn 1. And shoot it to death. You should get with that last army something like an obscene 18 shots demolisher, 9 shots plasma, and 8 hits of flamer onto the wulfen squadron alone, as it tries in vain to reach your stuff that you pulled back just a smidge. (and you should start a lot of your troops in starategic resever, for maximum not dying to bolters before you can do something turn 2,3,4,5.
the astropath will take a lone wulfen down by turn 2, all itself, and make its points back. That much firepower on the wulven squad? GONE. Even if its popped up to transhuman, that's going to be about 6 saves attempted vs demo cannon fire (so 2 dead wulves) and 4 vs plasma cannon fire (1 more dead wulv) and about 2 mortal wounds from the astropath (I think that's a wulf dead) so the question is now, can you kill 1 wulf with just a manticore's 2best of 3d6 or so 10/-2/3 shots? Answer .. maybe .. but that last wulf is a lot less a threat when it tries to singlehandedly cut its way through 30 bodies than 5 of them would be.[spoiler]

All these options show the weaknesses marines actually have -- they are FEW and you are MANY. They can't control objectives if you have blown up their sunday punch unit and are rolling up the field (taking hellish loss of infantry, but not much carring) while they desperately seek not to lose their other THREE non-character non-dread units.

My crazy plasma force with all the deepstrikers does a similar thing -- deny them a first turn target, then kill even 10 or 15 of their support group, and they are suddenly unable to hold more, unable to take you out, and the wulven if they survive are left running after tanks .. that move 10 inches (or if tallarn 16 inches a round) while firing back at them. Its hard to catch something like that especially if its just .. running away.

like .. .. well, customs, again, but indie fire crazy customs who don't sit still.
Spoiler:

wilderness surviving gunnery experts (the reroll number of shots one, if I am remembering the name wrong)
2 company commanders tallarn, each has a powerfist and a plasma pistol. Cause.
60 gaurd with 6 plasma and 6 plasma pistol.
2 manticores with full payload
1 basilisk
1 more basilisks

They are going to run after you a LONG time, cause when you see where the wulven are coming, you leave that spot like so many roaches fleeing a hammerfall. Sure, they will probably screw up your forces, but they won't be able to shut you down hard and fast, because you target the relic dreadnaught, intercessors;longfangs, , with your indirect fire in that order, leaving the big bad wulves with like, 1 unit of wulven .. to do everything. It can't, especially if its got a basilisk in each separate corner of the board just plinking away at it, and between "get back in the fight" and "move move move" and "forewards for the emoeroir" and just being tallarn, you have a lot of mobility that the poor wulven have to run down just to kill you 18 plasma shots a turn (which is not going to make the wulven's 5 man unit HAPPY at all, I think). 20, if you are also able to get the officers to fire their pistols. By the time they realize that 5 wulven out of range doesn't trump a rain of plasma, you will have worn them down for the easy kill.


I just am having trouble seeing how these wolves survive gaurd .. .unless its the first time you met them and they just plain bum rushed your front lines, where you couldn't see it coming in your head cause it seemed really ridiculously overpowered of the marines to be able to DO that. Its like your friend built an army just to screw with gaurd. So build one to screw with wulves!






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


You'd have to be the tempestas regiment that has the stratagem for a close drop, but maybe. It's a very tight thing there, and I'm not certain you'll find a place within 6" of the tank you want and more than 5" from the enemy.

If I'm that far in on stormtroopers, I'm not sure I'd go for that doctrine, over the one for +6", but then again, I'm planning to use my suicide stormtrooper squads for setting up scramblers, so maybe.

don't have anything in my court as Guard right now.


1. flyer supportAs long as you have ANY stormtrooper detachment, even a patrol with a command squad and 1 measley tempest prime .. with access to a valkyrie, you have the close drop option as well, which does the same range but doesn't allow enemy auspex scan, and will let you do "it" with any doctrine you want. I usually put them all together, but if you are clever you can drop your squads out against SEPARATE targets all over the board, with a hovering flyer and mulitple squads, and then deepstrike in the tempestor primes behind them to support their shooting, and deepstrike in more soldiers to make a "second front".
Its a big part of my lambda lions initial punch, dropping 3 command squads with plasma really close in and firing 24 shots into .. something. I believe a lot of that could be simulated more cheaply by putting plasma in the +6 RF range custom regiment, and letting them come from the board's edge to doubletap 24 inches in from either side. (six from the edge + 18 range for x2plasma). Seriously nothing to sneeze at, you can buy 3 regular gaurd style command squads for a mere 192 points and salt them into any larger gaurd force pretty cheaply. Viola, sneak attack on the cheap.
2. timing. If its not the first thing you drop from a plane ... like my lambdas, again, first turn, I rush forward 10 plain jane scions in a plane with a tempest in support, and they step out at 6 inches. FRFSRF = 37 hotshot shots, with a cp to turn them into S4, they suddenly can clear a lot of screens from the enemy. (and the flyers help). Then turn 2, the enemy maybe is down a bit in what they can block off, and especially if you have another such unit in another such flyer, you can drop it into play and put "gifts of the mechanicum" on it. Instead of doing the nasty that the 4 meltas deliver, its going to fire its stuff, rerolling all wounds, and fishing for mortal wounds. That's why my secondary relic "laurels of command" is handed to a scion, as well, in hopes of FRFSRF/gifts/laurels proc execution protocol.
OR you can precision drop the 3 command squads -- and pass only "excecution protocol" to them, to unload a whomping big plasma or melta barrage at pointblank range, if the enemy left something exposed .. anywhere .. on the board.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 10:37:45


Post by: godardc


I can only agree about your analysis about 9th and the difference between the Astartes and the Imperial Guard... They have more tools suited to 9th than us. They can answer quickly to a change and go grab objectives easier then us...

Guys, what do you think about demolishers in 9th ? I like the
power, the blast weapon and the "speed" without any malus anymore. However, how to equip it ? If I play Voystraya, idk, maybe a barebone one ? But if I play Armageddon, with heavy flamers ?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 12:05:08


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


So just a quick question:

The guy who said go with Tallarn Punisher tanks;
You know even with double shooting a single Tally Punishers only kills about 1 wulfen right? It takes a ap3 to force them to use their 4+ invuln, which is lilkely a 3+ with a priest against shooting, and they have 2 wounds each, so D1 weapons waste a LOT of wounds.

Even a Storm Lord firing only takes out half a squad....thats if it dedicates ALL it's guns....


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 13:23:29


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I think you can get a lot of use out of this setup for your "big guns"
Custom regiment spearhead .. spotter details and gunnery experts (so sort of, the vostroyan range and the catachan rerolls)
Spoiler:
2 tank commander with plasmas and lascannons to back up their 35 inch threat demolishers(and the plasma).
2 normal tanks with triple heavy flamer /demolisher sitting "one layer forward" (starts as squad)
a master of ordinance to give his warlord trait to...
2 manticores with full payload. (back corner somewhere. or rather, TWO back corners)
That's a quick 1185 points, but it has good odds if supported with decent infantry to keep the enemy off the tanks and to maybe even win the tank battle outright. You have mostly reroll 1's and you are rerolling for shot numbers somehting like 16 dice a turn, potentially.
Objective secured on 4 leman russes can turn thigns like bullygryn into an objective score, too, it only takes one obsec.


I think you can do ok with a "mere" 35 inch threat range, especially cause in a pinch, you can forge ahead the full 10 inches and call it 40 inch threat, by firing only 1/2 the shots from the demo gun. A sacrifice of power for speed may occasionally make sense, and there are few places on the modern game board that careful deployment and a 40 inch threat can't reach at all (and the plasma).

That's probably a stronger answer in this edition than conquerer battle cannons (which are actually still available till officially legended, but somewhat lackluster to shoot primaris in cover, and especially crappy to shoot at heavy intercesser in cover).
I think that is my best shot at a real tank threat in ninth. Honorable mention goes to the plasma executioner gun as well, and (in theory) to punisher gatlings on both of the forward leman russes (and make them tank aces to -1 ap). That setup has better odds to whack a lot of primaris but it ends up being only about 1 more per salvo, and anything with 3 woudns, your firepower is cut in half. Demos are much better, and the new heavy primaris, the aggressors and eradicators you have to aggressively eradicate, the 3 wound terminators, the occasional centurion from the people who were top o the food chain 7 months ago with lots of centurions, all mean, you do better I think with the demo tanks.

That's all I got, and I type all this halfway cause I am curious what you folks think of it.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 14:11:27


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 godardc wrote:
I can only agree about your analysis about 9th and the difference between the Astartes and the Imperial Guard... They have more tools suited to 9th than us. They can answer quickly to a change and go grab objectives easier then us...

Guys, what do you think about demolishers in 9th ? I like the
power, the blast weapon and the "speed" without any malus anymore. However, how to equip it ? If I play Voystraya, idk, maybe a barebone one ? But if I play Armageddon, with heavy flamers ?


I like them. They definitely feel like they have an effect on target when everything else isn't.

I run them bare bones, because that's how mine are built. Depending on how aggressive you are and how well screened you are, either bare bones, all heavy bolters, or all heavy flamers all sound like options for it. I'd go bare bones anyway since I expect to have enough screening for any forward pushing tanks because it's still pushing behind the infantry swarm, but we might want the HB's depending on their cost once they go to D2 for killing Primaris.

Note: a Leman Russ with 3x D2 heavy bolters kills only approximately 1 space marine with the entire suite of heavy bolters. I would probably default to running them bare bones unless they're tank commanders, because those points would definitely be better spent on plasguns or something.


Also, a full suite of heavy bolters kills about 3 models of light infantry, so they won't be killing you out of close combat to free your main gun any day. Heavy Flamers improve that to an average of 7 models, though definitely won't be killing space marines. If you're going to try to kill yourself out of melee and then fire your gun, I would only accept Heavy Flamers, and even then I'd be hesitant to do so.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 18:26:43


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


How does the new blast rules effect the Baneblade? I feel like half it's weapons are now blast or at least d2. Jesus, the stock cannon alone is 12 shots of S9 AP3 3 damage. Then add in the Demo cannon, the auto cannon, the 9 HBs, and 4 Lascannons.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 20:21:58


Post by: Dukeofstuff


The banehammer is a bit meh in terms of killing titans, but if you are looking for ninth edition stuff, its ability to slow an enemy charge unit might actually give it some legs, and a few special weapons squads full of grenade launchers can cheaply give it some anti-infantry firepower -- that can also hop out and grab for an objective.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 20:43:46


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


With respect to the IG super heavies, remember that to field a Shadowsword, Baneblade, Stormlord, or etc. will cost you 3 CP in addition to the price of the tank. That's a fairly hefty price, so make sure it's worth it.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 20:54:10


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I don't see guard as a MUST have CP Army. Not like my Custodes, who eat CP like a fat kid in a Chinese Buffet. A loss of 3cp to us isn't that major, especially when several of our characters have CP regen abilities.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 22:04:26


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't see guard as a MUST have CP Army. Not like my Custodes, who eat CP like a fat kid in a Chinese Buffet. A loss of 3cp to us isn't that major, especially when several of our characters have CP regen abilities.


If, in addition to your Baneblade, you're also fielding a Patrol or Battalion of Scions, as has been generally bandied around and I definitely think is a good idea, and then you're fielding a Tank Ace Manticore, you're already down to 5 or 6. Precision Drop on your scions and your down to like 3.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/21 23:29:58


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Strictly speaking, Precision drop is 1 per use, and you are earning 1 per round just by living. I have fought many battles with fewer CP as guard, and as long (in eighth) as you didn't bring in a basilisk, you were fine. Basies sucked CP dry with their doubletaps, though.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/22 01:24:20


Post by: ArikTaranis


I've been wondering about hellhounds with an inferno cannon and multi melta. Traditionally I wouldn't mix and match roles (infantry hunter vs tank hunter) but I'm thinking with split fire in 8th/9th, this set up of hellhound could be a good allrounder for the cost? Especially when the new melta rules come into play. Perhaps add track guards and an augur array to give you a one-off reroll for the multi melta. This would come to 140 pts, and could handle a variety of threats. Maybe add a storm bolter. I'd run it as Vostroyan I think.

Could these be used decently to push up the board onto objectives?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/22 15:25:31


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Hey all.

Have had a gaurd army for about a year now, but unfortunately no one around to play with. So all I do is paint and theory craft.

My most recent deliberation has been what to do with my unopened baneblade box. I have read some discussion over potential options in this thread, and I know it was heavily discussed in 8th, but now we are in 9th and I want to know what's best.

Originally, I had intended to buy it for a shadowsword, as some serious anti tank firepower, but now Im thinking it might just be overkill, especially at almost 500 points.

Next thought was classic stormlord with friends, loaded up with bullgryn or shooterboys. Now Im considering that the Bullgryns might be survivable on their own, and that the stormlord would just be target fired down making it the world's most expensive chimera. Although the D2 gun isnt terrible against marines if it survives...

So then we have the smattering of other baneblade varients. I liked the comment about the Banehammer, being able to slow a potential deathball CC unit seems like an answer to a potential AM weakness, but again this is coming at a steep (not as steep as the other varients) point cost. And in terms of damage the main cannon is only a little bit better hammer of sunderance.

Classic baneblade? I guess decent firepower overall, but still faults out at being easier to kill than 2 LRs.

I just want to field a centerpiece model that does something impactful before it gets blown up. If I ever get to play again...


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/22 15:33:42


Post by: Pyroalchi


Keep in mind that you now can deepstrike literally anything. It's not cheap, as it costs additional 3 CP but you can get one round of undisturbed shooting guaranteed.

IF the enemy also brings a titanic unit, one round of shooting can be enough for a shadowsword to bring back its points, especially with reroll or Vostroyas +1to hit buff.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/22 16:01:37


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Hey all.

Have had a gaurd army for about a year now, but unfortunately no one around to play with. So all I do is paint and theory craft.

My most recent deliberation has been what to do with my unopened baneblade box. I have read some discussion over potential options in this thread, and I know it was heavily discussed in 8th, but now we are in 9th and I want to know what's best.

Originally, I had intended to buy it for a shadowsword, as some serious anti tank firepower, but now Im thinking it might just be overkill, especially at almost 500 points.

Next thought was classic stormlord with friends, loaded up with bullgryn or shooterboys. Now Im considering that the Bullgryns might be survivable on their own, and that the stormlord would just be target fired down making it the world's most expensive chimera. Although the D2 gun isnt terrible against marines if it survives...

So then we have the smattering of other baneblade varients. I liked the comment about the Banehammer, being able to slow a potential deathball CC unit seems like an answer to a potential AM weakness, but again this is coming at a steep (not as steep as the other varients) point cost. And in terms of damage the main cannon is only a little bit better hammer of sunderance.

Classic baneblade? I guess decent firepower overall, but still faults out at being easier to kill than 2 LRs.

I just want to field a centerpiece model that does something impactful before it gets blown up. If I ever get to play again...


I have a Shadowsword [though not new, I've had it since before they were allowed in normal games], but mostly because a gigantic Stug is cool.

That said, after one gets past the existing reservations about the high cost in points and CP, lack of survivability, and the fact that its literally a quarter of your army. I think if you're set on using one:
Hellhammer makes good use of all of the features of it, and the regular Baneblade is about the same.
Shadowsword brings something special to the table you won't get with massed other things.
Doomhammer/Banehammer/Stormlord are basically fat Chimerae, I'd probably take a Chimera first.
Banesword and Stormsword are worse than the Shadowsword/Baneblade/Hellhammer


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/22 16:34:03


Post by: Insularum


Can anyone confirm whether the custom regimental traits from Greater Good removes the old ability to copy/paste any of the codex doctrines - particulary stormtroopers - when creating a custom regiment? or is that still a thing?

Given the number of +1 to hit strats that now exist for guard, stormtrooper doctrine on a custom regiment could be quite strong, particularly on a full payload/direct onslaught manticore (should be average 100%-ish accurate). A tempestus stormtrooper battalion + regimental stormtrooper spearhead seems like it could work quite well.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/22 20:06:12


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Also, I don't know if 9th changes this yet, but the "Lord" series of tanks, Storm Lord etc, are all open topped transports. Meaning you can squat 3 packs of mortars in there or 3 squads of snipers/melta/plasma command squads, and besides being able to shoot out, they are completely unable to be attacked. The Lord Series is a great way to drop a ton of FU on your opponent's doorstep.They also usually have much shorter ranged weapons. So feel free to go heavy flamer sponson heavy, pick the Storm lord, load it with three squads of Bullgryns and a priest, and park it on the middle of the field. Rinse repeat.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/22 23:27:35


Post by: morpheusgotmeout


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
My most recent deliberation has been what to do with my unopened baneblade box. I have read some discussion over potential options in this thread, and I know it was heavily discussed in 8th, but now we are in 9th and I want to know what's best.


Octoblade. Why make one, when you can have all 8?

It's fairly easy to make an Octoblade, it just takes more time, but it looks like you'd have that time. Buy some neodymium magnets, and you'll be able to switch between variants whenever you like.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/23 14:10:03


Post by: Kcalehc


Insularum wrote:
Can anyone confirm whether the custom regimental traits from Greater Good removes the old ability to copy/paste any of the codex doctrines - particulary stormtroopers - when creating a custom regiment? or is that still a thing?

Given the number of +1 to hit strats that now exist for guard, stormtrooper doctrine on a custom regiment could be quite strong, particularly on a full payload/direct onslaught manticore (should be average 100%-ish accurate). A tempestus stormtrooper battalion + regimental stormtrooper spearhead seems like it could work quite well.


I don't see why not, nothing seems to prevent you from taking Stormtroopers as a regimental doctrine for a custom regiment.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/23 19:10:52


Post by: Dukeofstuff


The PA book has a section on custom regiments -- the "pick two things" section. So its sort of an odd duck, because back in astra codex days in 8, you had to point to an existing regiment as the "style" of any custom. The question he asks is, does the new style suppliment or supplant the old style of custom doctrines?

I don't think it makes the regiment better though. Rerolling shot count (catachan or custom modern regimental "gunnery experts" gives you likely better shots fired, and 1/2 of the several you pick up (you reroll the lowest die, of course) hit, rather than 1/7th the fewer shots.

Imagine you roll 3 on one manticore and 6 on the other. Stormtroopers might get might get a 6 or even two out of that, but still at bs 4 or bs3, so you end up with 2 more shots, probably 1 more hit. total of like, maybe 6 hits.
A catachan player migth be rerolling two 1's .. very likely adding a larger number of shots to the pool of hit dice, and those shots all hit still 67 or 50 percent of the time. So perhaps 8 or 9 hits over the two manticores... or at least, consistantly not firing one manticore with a REALLY low shot count, from the guided rerolling of the lowest die.
A cadian player with +1 to hit over both manticores (interlocked fields of fire) from some other source having wounded a target, can give you similar results, picking up an extra hit on the second manticore's six shots. But if the cadians area also shooting a basilisk and leman russ...



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/23 21:30:20


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Dukeofstuff wrote:
The PA book has a section on custom regiments -- the "pick two things" section. So its sort of an odd duck, because back in astra codex days in 8, you had to point to an existing regiment as the "style" of any custom. The question he asks is, does the new style suppliment or supplant the old style of custom doctrines?

I don't think it makes the regiment better though. Rerolling shot count (catachan or custom modern regimental "gunnery experts" gives you likely better shots fired, and 1/2 of the several you pick up (you reroll the lowest die, of course) hit, rather than 1/7th the fewer shots.

Imagine you roll 3 on one manticore and 6 on the other. Stormtroopers might get might get a 6 or even two out of that, but still at bs 4 or bs3, so you end up with 2 more shots, probably 1 more hit. total of like, maybe 6 hits.
A catachan player migth be rerolling two 1's .. very likely adding a larger number of shots to the pool of hit dice, and those shots all hit still 67 or 50 percent of the time. So perhaps 8 or 9 hits over the two manticores... or at least, consistantly not firing one manticore with a REALLY low shot count, from the guided rerolling of the lowest die.
A cadian player with +1 to hit over both manticores (interlocked fields of fire) from some other source having wounded a target, can give you similar results, picking up an extra hit on the second manticore's six shots. But if the cadians area also shooting a basilisk and leman russ...



Huh?

If you chose a build-your-own-Regimental-Doctrine, you are not Cadian, Catachan, etc. and do not get their doctrine, order, relic, stratagem, or any characters.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/23 22:00:08


Post by: Insularum


Kcalehc wrote:
Insularum wrote:
Can anyone confirm whether the custom regimental traits from Greater Good removes the old ability to copy/paste any of the codex doctrines - particulary stormtroopers - when creating a custom regiment? or is that still a thing?

Given the number of +1 to hit strats that now exist for guard, stormtrooper doctrine on a custom regiment could be quite strong, particularly on a full payload/direct onslaught manticore (should be average 100%-ish accurate). A tempestus stormtrooper battalion + regimental stormtrooper spearhead seems like it could work quite well.


I don't see why not, nothing seems to prevent you from taking Stormtroopers as a regimental doctrine for a custom regiment.

Dukeofstuff wrote:The PA book has a section on custom regiments -- the "pick two things" section. So its sort of an odd duck, because back in astra codex days in 8, you had to point to an existing regiment as the "style" of any custom. The question he asks is, does the new style suppliment or supplant the old style of custom doctrines?

I don't think it makes the regiment better though. Rerolling shot count (catachan or custom modern regimental "gunnery experts" gives you likely better shots fired, and 1/2 of the several you pick up (you reroll the lowest die, of course) hit, rather than 1/7th the fewer shots.

Imagine you roll 3 on one manticore and 6 on the other. Stormtroopers might get might get a 6 or even two out of that, but still at bs 4 or bs3, so you end up with 2 more shots, probably 1 more hit. total of like, maybe 6 hits.
A catachan player migth be rerolling two 1's .. very likely adding a larger number of shots to the pool of hit dice, and those shots all hit still 67 or 50 percent of the time. So perhaps 8 or 9 hits over the two manticores... or at least, consistantly not firing one manticore with a REALLY low shot count, from the guided rerolling of the lowest die.
A cadian player with +1 to hit over both manticores (interlocked fields of fire) from some other source having wounded a target, can give you similar results, picking up an extra hit on the second manticore's six shots. But if the cadians area also shooting a basilisk and leman russ...

Thanks for the replies - really appreciated

What I've had in mind for a while was a mainly scion force (best plastic guardsmen kit available), but allying in regimental units that naturally have bs3+ (i.e. tank commanders), who also happen to be running stormtroopers doctrine and modelled with scion bodies manning pintle weapons etc to make it kind of thematic. Since PA, the number of strats that can give +1 to hit has kind of expanded the list of potential units that shoot with scion accuracy.

Also, re the manticore - with a big list of caveats (one tank using direct onslaught, within 60", line of sight etc), stormtroopers would slightly outdo both cadian/catachan on the main weapon, but also that I assume stormtroopers would proc on HKM's also which would also seem to benefit from full payload so could be quite fun. As I would be intentionally not taking anything that really benefits from being cadian/catachan I think in this niche stormtroopers would be solidly not-terrible...

This is a very WIP idea of what I'm considering, all subject to change if weapon stats keep on moving around:
Spoiler:

2k stormtroopers

Scion battalion

Tempestor prime - warlord (no trait for tank ace)
Tempestor prime - command rod, auto-reliquary relic
Tempestor prime - command rod, laurels of command relic

Scions x10 - vox, x4 plasma gun, plasma pistol
Scions x10 - vox, x4 plasma gun, plasma pistol
Scions x10 - vox, x4 plasma gun, plasma pistol

Scion command squad - x4 melta gun
Scion command squad - x4 melta gun
Scion command squad - x4 grenade launcher

Taurox prime - x2 auto cannon, taurox battle cannon
Taurox prime - x2 hsvg, gatling cannon, storm bolter

Regimental vanguard

Tank commander - punisher cannon, lascannon, stubber, tank ace - weapon expert
Tank commander - battle cannon, lascannon, stubber

Priest
Ogryns x8
Master of ordnance
Platoon commander

Heavy weapons squad - x3 lascannon
Manticore - HKM, tank ace - full payload

Basic idea of a plan at this point would be concentrated fire on lascannon team with order support from PC, direct onslaught on manticore with MOO support. Plasma scions can drop in with auto-reliquary tempestor and spread the plasma around somewhat using voxes, while the laurels tempestor will drop with both melta squads to eliminate something with stacked orders. Everything else aims to bully the centre board.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/23 22:29:29


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Quick insight:

You are gonna burn through CP man, but great list!

1. Why Vox? If your prime is outside of the range of command you are leaving them exposed and very vulnerable. Don't. Just take double plas and be done with it.

2. Taurox Prime - This won't live long enough to earn it's points back, and if youre inserting by land why take Scions at all? AIRBORNE, NO LEGS ALLOWED.

3. Orgryns are just weaker Bullgryns. Take the Bulls with mauls and shields and call it good.

4. Lascannons look fun, but you won't hit with them for crap, and they can't take orders. Just go mortars or HBs. Or go SWTs with meltas/plas.

5. Drop the Rox and grab a Valk. It'll last longer and you can pinpoint drop your squads for free.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/23 23:54:49


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I note that to outdo catachan or cadian, you would need an ability to fire BOTH of the two manticores that I think many people want now, full payload, AND +1, but the strat only lets one of them do that with line of sight.

However.
I have a thought I need to mull over that might actually make the ST doctrine work after all.
stormtrooper doctrine.
Spoiler:

because, well, they are "stormtrooper grenadiers" actually!
mechanized stormtrooper spearhead
marshall
tank commander with demolisher and plasma cannon
2 squads 5 stormtrooper grenadiers with 2 plasma each
2 4 man dkok command squads with 2 plasma each
3 conquerer battle cannon mars pattern leman russ with coaxial heavy stubber and 48 inch range main gun that rerolls every miss, and plasma cannon, each
manticore with full payload and hunter killer missle and heavy bolter and augur array
other manticore with full payload and hunter killer missle and heavy bolter and augur array


The idea is to maximize rerolling to fish for extra firepoiwer in the firepower. Now the +1 to hit manticore can reroll its shot with the hunterkiller and potentially smack someone with JUST that missle for 12 wounds! The rest, is just the cheapest per unit plasma dakka I could think of.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/24 02:45:39


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Dukeofstuff wrote:
I note that to outdo catachan or cadian, you would need an ability to fire BOTH of the two manticores that I think many people want now, full payload, AND +1, but the strat only lets one of them do that with line of sight.

However.
I have a thought I need to mull over that might actually make the ST doctrine work after all.
stormtrooper doctrine.
Spoiler:

because, well, they are "stormtrooper grenadiers" actually!
mechanized stormtrooper spearhead
marshall
tank commander with demolisher and plasma cannon
2 squads 5 stormtrooper grenadiers with 2 plasma each
2 4 man dkok command squads with 2 plasma each
3 conquerer battle cannon mars pattern leman russ with coaxial heavy stubber and 48 inch range main gun that rerolls every miss, and plasma cannon, each
manticore with full payload and hunter killer missle and heavy bolter and augur array
other manticore with full payload and hunter killer missle and heavy bolter and augur array


The idea is to maximize rerolling to fish for extra firepoiwer in the firepower. Now the +1 to hit manticore can reroll its shot with the hunterkiller and potentially smack someone with JUST that missle for 12 wounds! The rest, is just the cheapest per unit plasma dakka I could think of.


If you're DKoK you have to be the DKoK doctrine, unless there's a specific clause on Grenadiers.

Also, storm troopers only applies of Tempestas Militarum units, unless there's a specific clause of Grenadiers.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/24 05:33:01


Post by: Dukeofstuff


ok. I can see the confusion.
1. in the old codex for astra militarum there was a different path to custom regiments where (an example was given often) you could run a bunch of stuff with a different doctrine, e.g. normal gaurd with the stormtroopers regimental doctrine. They didn't become militarum tempests, and any actual militarum tempests mixed in with them would, ironically, not get their own stormtrooper doctrine (6's gaining an extra shot at short range) while mixed in.
This is the thing that the fellow above posited as a possible way to get stormtrooper doctrine on manticores.
This is a separate style of custom regiment from the stuff seen in the PA book, where you pick 2 traits like gunnery experts and spotter details to "build your own".
2. I forgot you couldn't do it to dkok, or at least, a lot of people believed you couldn't, although I don't thinik that was ever directly discussed in a faq. As dkok was somewhat dubiously "not possessing a regimental doctrine of its own" but derived its special rules from its statline rules unit by unit, and thus couldn't be broken (as a doctrine) by inserting a cadian unit -- although the cadian unit's cadian doctrine would be broken by a dkok (or elysian) unit in the detachment back in eighth.

Without going down to my car (packed to the gills with crap, actually) and digging both books out of the bottom of a 500 pound pile of stuff, I can't reference either book directly, other than by memmory.

Note that the limit was that the custom (old style) regiment gained only stormtrooper doctrine -- it did NOT become miliatrum tempestes with stormtrooper doctrine.

Anyway, I fear we are devolving into confusion of terminology and some of that is probably my fault for typing stuff while at work.




Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/25 13:23:26


Post by: Spartan 117


A lot of folks have commented on DKok, Cadian, and Catachan doctrines. My question is what do you guys think of the Armageddon doctrine in 9th edition? My guard force is the Steel Legion models because I started it when the old Armageddon campaign codex was out. I play my force like the fluff with everything in Chimeras and loads of Russ's for heavy firepower support. I haven't had a chance to play test my force out yet in 9th but I think it would work well in the objective based play of 9th edition.

How I see my force working in 9th edition is to steam roll all Chimeras and infantry to the middle of the board turn 1 and establish a gun line. The regimental doctrine of rapid fire at 18 inches with double the shots sounds extremely useful in ensuring the gun line holds at mid table, plus the Chimeras are there for infantry support. I'll deep strike tempestus ahead of the gunline to sow confusion and to push for objectives on the far side of the table. If they make it, they make it. If they don't they don't. This edition seems focused on table control, and controlling the middle of the table seems like the key. I think this doctrine may be useful with the number of shots you can take mid-range. What do you guys think of this strategy and the Armageddon doctrine in 9th?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/25 16:52:58


Post by: Dukeofstuff


It sounds as solid as anything else we have had in here -- you are going to put a fairly resilient mechanized minihorde midtable with decent rate of fire to make up for lackluster bs4+.

I would give out lots of plasma and hide the better units like command squads in the chimeras, so they can step out and fire with almost the efficacy of a scions squad -- doubleshot on dismount with 3 inch dismount, 6 inch move, and 18 inch fir range = anything within 27 inches of your chimera is getting short range plasma fire. That's pretty damn good, and a single rr1 order should minimize the self harm.

Or yarrik! you can run yarrik for armywide rerolls! Sounds solid.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/25 19:08:25


Post by: Spartan 117


Dukeofstuff wrote:
It sounds as solid as anything else we have had in here -- you are going to put a fairly resilient mechanized minihorde midtable with decent rate of fire to make up for lackluster bs4+.

I would give out lots of plasma and hide the better units like command squads in the chimeras, so they can step out and fire with almost the efficacy of a scions squad -- doubleshot on dismount with 3 inch dismount, 6 inch move, and 18 inch fir range = anything within 27 inches of your chimera is getting short range plasma fire. That's pretty damn good, and a single rr1 order should minimize the self harm.

Or yarrik! you can run yarrik for armywide rerolls! Sounds solid.


Nice! I didn't even think about running Yarrik!



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/26 02:32:33


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Isn't he thematically perfect for that army?
He also gives rerolls to things like crusaders when they didn't charge or get charged, or to masses of catachans in melee, or to the occasinoal baneblade or flyer.

I loves me a yarrik!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/26 14:24:54


Post by: Kommissar Kel


Just threw this list together this morning, wanted to get the tactics opinion on it:


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [29 PL, -3CP, 520pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment CP [-3CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum, Gunnery Experts, Jury-rigged Repairs

+ Lord of War +

Doomhammer [29 PL, 520pts]: Steadfast Leviathan, Twin heavy bolter
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon, Twin heavy bolter

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [75 PL, 11CP, 1,480pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum, Gunnery Experts, Jury-rigged Repairs

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Display Astra Militarum Orders, Laspistol, Relic: The Deathmask of Ollanius

Tank Commander [12 PL, 225pts]: Battle Cannon, Display Tank Orders, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber, Steel Commander, Warlord

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 80pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 80pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

+ Elites +

Tech-Priest Enginseer [2 PL, 35pts]

+ Fast Attack +

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 50pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Plasma Cannon

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 50pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Plasma Cannon

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 50pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Plasma Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Hydras [6 PL, 115pts]
. Hydra: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [22 PL, 430pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Stubber, Lascannon, Multi-meltas, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. Leman Russ Executioner: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber, Plasma Cannons, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Multi-laser

Chimera [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Multi-laser

++ Total: [104 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I have a ton of various tanks and Infantry, plans are to drop 2 Infantry squads in the roomhammer and start rushing enemy deployment, leave an infantry squad in home deployment with the Co Commander, pretty much everything else sweeps across the board for other objectives.

Might add a Heavy Weapon Squad for the firing decks, swapping a few things around for the points.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/26 15:33:43


Post by: Dukeofstuff



So my advice, shift warlord from vulnerable and exposed tank commander to deathmask protected character commander, drop hydra, drop sponsoons, buy a leman russ and 2 buffing astropaths, and shift tank ace strat on tankcommander to be "master mechanic" to synergize the roudn 2 to 3 buffing from the astropaths. As big tanks die and cheaper tanks get in place, you shift the buffers from tank to tank, protecting each in turn with -1 to be hit, +1 to save, and up to about 5 repair woudns a round. That + the extra leman russ means your enemy will start by trying to kill the doomhammer, and probably succeed, but not necessarily roudn 1 or 2 as he hopes, and then, your armor is in good shape for the game, 4 leman russ is not bad for turn 3, especially if the lead element is a tank commander with -1 to be hit, +1 to save, and -1 to incoming per shot damage!...compared to he kills it in turn 1 or 2 and you have only 3 left and a hydra -- but he brought no flyers, and the lead tank commander isn't particularly tough to kill.

The reason I say this is, it looks like your list is all about the armor -- you don't have the depth of infantry most ninth lists that are trying to "horde obsec" bring, and that means you will need to win the armor vs armor battle (or whatever they have that is like armor) or at minimum, keep the enemy occupied firing his armor at yours till the end of the game, so that your relatively small gaurd contingent of soldiers isn't overrun. Probably you have to win that fight, and to do that, you need your tanks to not die as long as they can .. and to not be trapped by the hydra, which ends up firing 8 autocannon shots at bs 5+ into enemy armor on the ground, doing all of maybe 3 hits, and then only forcing ONE save at ap-1. So your hydra is ok against a horde of bikers that come directly in front of you but can't quite reach your lines, but its going to be utterly ignored if you fight against another gaurd army with maybe 5 or 6 leman russes in a line. Suddenly 6 leman russ can probably blow up oyur big tank + 3 leman russ, and start working on your infantry, while the hydra just sort of wishes it could harm them.

As a simple example. I am sure deathgaurd or chaos would be a less simple example but I mostly play gaurd so I just think of them as targets.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/26 17:55:26


Post by: Kommissar Kel


WL on TC Ace was mostly to have Battlescribe shut up(throwing up 2 different Error Codes: 1 too many Tnk Ace and 1 Too many WLT).

Hear you on the Hydra vs extra Russ, was hoping for extra +1 to hit on non-flyer, FLY, models; All through 8th and so far in 9th I have been sleeping on most "Anti-air" weapons while simultaneously seeing jump pack enemies and grav tanks.

Part of the whole situation was ensuring I had fairly mobile armor saturation, mainly to help protect the super heavy. I agree with the need for astropaths; sort of forgot about them with selecting the enginseer(who is really unnecessary with Regiment selections: already healing 1-d3 W on every vehicle)

Instead of Deathmask I was thinking of the Dagger and deploying the Co Commander with an infantry squad to run for an enemy objective/pull secondary Objective Actions in enemy territory(Since the Co Com is already not going to be handing out very many Orders).

Looking at it all I can Drop Enginseer, Hydra, Stubbers on russes, MM Sponsons on Demolisher, and 1 Sgt's wargear and still fit the 2 Astropaths, turn TC into a MBT-Classic and gain an MBT with Hull Las.

The Other thing I am somewhat looking into is saying "Screw the CPS" and taking the main force as a Spearhead, dropping an Infantry squad but gaining Obsec on the Russes as well(and freeing up Points and Slots for HWS to sit on the Firing Deck and Blast away).



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/27 16:35:43


Post by: godardc


I have a pretty interesting game coming this weekend: I'll face renegade using the Imperial Guard codex, mainly based around infantry, using my a mechanized army. He will still have around 5 vehicle though.
It's the first time I'll face the guard. Gonna be a pretty interesting game with all those weak infantry and those lasguns !


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/29 07:18:04


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Er, how did it go?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/29 11:33:20


Post by: tneva82


 Pyroalchi wrote:
Keep in mind that you now can deepstrike literally anything. It's not cheap, as it costs additional 3 CP but you can get one round of undisturbed shooting guaranteed.

IF the enemy also brings a titanic unit, one round of shooting can be enough for a shadowsword to bring back its points, especially with reroll or Vostroyas +1to hit buff.


Though if it has sponsons isn't it bigger than 6" at smallest side? Thus unable to fit fully within 6" of board edge and thus unable to do anything.

So for that skip sponsons.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/29 17:56:06


Post by: ninjafiredragon


tneva82 wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
Keep in mind that you now can deepstrike literally anything. It's not cheap, as it costs additional 3 CP but you can get one round of undisturbed shooting guaranteed.

IF the enemy also brings a titanic unit, one round of shooting can be enough for a shadowsword to bring back its points, especially with reroll or Vostroyas +1to hit buff.


Though if it has sponsons isn't it bigger than 6" at smallest side? Thus unable to fit fully within 6" of board edge and thus unable to do anything.

So for that skip sponsons.


Pff when small game rules get in the way of intended playing purposes, fight back by modeling your tank to have both sponsons on one side, thereby keeping the tank under 6". It doesn't specify where the sponsons have to go...


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/29 20:14:04


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


tneva82 wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
Keep in mind that you now can deepstrike literally anything. It's not cheap, as it costs additional 3 CP but you can get one round of undisturbed shooting guaranteed.

IF the enemy also brings a titanic unit, one round of shooting can be enough for a shadowsword to bring back its points, especially with reroll or Vostroyas +1to hit buff.


Though if it has sponsons isn't it bigger than 6" at smallest side? Thus unable to fit fully within 6" of board edge and thus unable to do anything.

So for that skip sponsons.


If the model can't fit within 6", place it touching the board edge.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/29 20:19:38


Post by: tneva82


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
Keep in mind that you now can deepstrike literally anything. It's not cheap, as it costs additional 3 CP but you can get one round of undisturbed shooting guaranteed.

IF the enemy also brings a titanic unit, one round of shooting can be enough for a shadowsword to bring back its points, especially with reroll or Vostroyas +1to hit buff.


Though if it has sponsons isn't it bigger than 6" at smallest side? Thus unable to fit fully within 6" of board edge and thus unable to do anything.

So for that skip sponsons.


If the model can't fit within 6", place it touching the board edge.


Yes. And in case you have missed it there's additional restriction when that happens. Specifically you are sitting duck there.

You don't get to come and act normally. If you can't fit you can still COME there. It just comes with additional penalty. So yes you can put baneblade into reserves but if you build it with sponsons opponent will get to shoot at you once anyway before you get to shoot.

As for above comment: Modeling for advantage is big no no. You try that, opponent is fine to model 0.5" tall wraithlord.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/29 22:24:30


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I have always thoguht the cadian ability to interloc fields of fire -- and give the tank a +1 to hit, the guys in or near it a +1, the other artillery pieces all a +1, was WAY better than a single unit of vostroyan armor firind its dozen or so shots at +1.

If you pick a doomhammer rather than a shadowsword or similar, you can also load a brace of command squads or veterancs into it, and pour out your melta and plasma and lascannon fire at a bs3+ (which is the same effect as a +1 strat, only no command points blown). Then when the tank dies, they just pile out, a few regular infantry die, and they can fire again while grabbing for terrain.

Compared to an extremely well armed baneblade that just poof! can do nothing once dead, cause sponsoons don't jump out ot fight.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/09/30 14:57:49


Post by: Gnollu


overlappiing fields of fire require to deal unsaved wound to the target. In case of knight with 4++ it can be an issue, and also it costs 2CP. Vostroyan strategem costs only 1CP and is for unit shooting, not target, so e.g. you can split fire with Baneblade and get +1 to hit roll for every target you shoot at.

Baneblade even with sponsons on single side is just above 6'' width so it cannot be deepstriked (well it can but it is not viable in any way).

Also Doomhammer in deepstrike is 4CP as it is 30PL :(. for 3CP Baneblade has the biggest firepower thanks to demolisher cannon and autocannon on top of twin heavy bolters and main cannon.

Tallarn ambush stratagem is still very viable as one can fit there squadronned vehicles (e.g. 3 Leman Russes / Hellhounds or Baneblade with sponsons as it can be set up 7'' from board edge) alongside 2 infantry units (melta command squad with platoon commander) and can be set alongside any edge (even your opponent's board edge) from turn 2 onwards so yea, tallarn is still valid with ambush and advancing hellhounds/flame chimeras/ flame LRBTs and so on.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/01 02:25:28


Post by: Dukeofstuff


All valid and relatedly playstyle variables matter a great deal. IF I brought a cadian superheavy, you can bet a cadian brigade beside it would be available to put the scratch on any target I wanted -- including command squads and veterans with bs3+, full rerolls, and excellent weapons. With manticores. And even with plasma and missle launchers in the normal gaurd squads, which is my go to cadian shooting match. Ah, eighth edition!

I am not actually sure -- I think tallarn leman russes (if they happen to be one tank commander) can self order to move six inches after coming in from off board, but I am not sure.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/02 08:44:54


Post by: Gnollu


Dukeofstuff wrote:
n to be one tank commander) can self order to move six inches after coming in from off board, but I am not sure.


They cannot. It was FAQed that one cannot move after coming from reserve for any reason (but can charge afterwards) unless specifically saying that one can (e.g. Sly Marbo's rules or GSC's stratagem Perfect Ambush)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/02 09:03:36


Post by: Pyroalchi


Small note on deepstriking a Baneblade: The Tallarn Ambush Stratagem allows to place the vehicle within 7'' of the table edge (instead of 6''). I'm not sure if that is enough for a Baneblade with sponsons, but it's something.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/02 12:39:58


Post by: morpheusgotmeout


 Pyroalchi wrote:
Small note on deepstriking a Baneblade: The Tallarn Ambush Stratagem allows to place the vehicle within 7'' of the table edge (instead of 6''). I'm not sure if that is enough for a Baneblade with sponsons, but it's something.


It is enough. I think that might have been the whole point of making it 7 instead on 6 inch


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/02 23:45:23


Post by: Mud Turkey 13


How does an all-tank list sound for this edition? I am not aiming for it to be super competitive or anything, but I have always wanted an Imperial Guard list that only had tanks.

I threw together a 2000 point list on BattleScribe just to see what it would look like. It would be something like this:

Catachan Outrider
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Fast Attack - Hellhound w/ track guards and flamers x3
Heavy Support Basilisk - x3

Valhallan Spearhead
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Heavy Support - Punisher, Demolisher, Battle Tank x2


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 06:44:47


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ Mud Turkey 13: while it sounds fun I'm currently a bit pessimistic for all vehicle lists, as the changes to Meltaweapons that seem to come with the SM Codex are really really powerful. Might be that there is something in there that balances it out, but with SM armies potentially able to bring 3 x 6 eradicators with doubletab and a 2 shot Multimelta/3dudes and at least the other imperial factions also getting 2 shot Multimeltas and better damage within Melta range, vehicles without really good screening seem awfully vulnerable


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 07:08:54


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
How does an all-tank list sound for this edition? I am not aiming for it to be super competitive or anything, but I have always wanted an Imperial Guard list that only had tanks.

I threw together a 2000 point list on BattleScribe just to see what it would look like. It would be something like this:

Catachan Outrider
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Fast Attack - Hellhound w/ track guards and flamers x3
Heavy Support Basilisk - x3

Valhallan Spearhead
HQ - Tank Commander with battle cannon and las
Heavy Support - Punisher, Demolisher, Battle Tank x2

Guard tanks in and of themselves are not bad. They hit hard for the points because it's a gun welded to a brick, it doesn't have to pay for a bunch of extra stuff like melee ability or special abilities. Demolishers and Full Payload Tank Ace Manticores in particular are very powerful, with other units having utility based on the list such as Scout Sentinels, Hellhounds, and Punisher tanks.

The problem is that 9th is a very aggressive and mobile edition focusing on taking objectives. Yes, tanks can absolutely decimate when it comes to firepower, but you will lose most games because many armies can easily close the gap turn one, tie up your key tanks, and you will be practically defenseless unless you decided to run nothing but Punishers and Annihilators. Your tanks will be obsec, but that will matter little when 2 troop models knock your tank of the objective and it cant even pick targets because it's stuck in melee, if it even survived the charge.

Simply put, guard tanks need infantry to survive all but the most braindead casual of gunlines being run against it. So many lists now, even ones by absolute newbies in my area, are getting in your face turn one and engaging in melee. Your tanks can't outrun the melee threats, they can't fight them in melee, and a clever opponent will deny overwatch and shots in general by hugging terrain. Your tank commanders will be focused and destroyed first, and without tank commander support the regular russes and vehicles will fold shortly afterwards. I would say any tank army needs minimum 60 infantry to function, and that's a real barebones number.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 09:10:38


Post by: Pomander Cask


I'm a novice when it comes to tactics, but I've been thinking about a tank-based list too. What if it included a significant number of heavy flamers, perhaps boosted with Gunnery Experts and Pyromaniacs? Wouldn't that handle the melee threats pretty well? If chimeras and sentinels ran first, and tried to block things from reaching the heavy guns?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 11:30:31


Post by: Pyroalchi


The problem remains that the new Melta weapons will quite likely remove every vehicle without good invulnerability saves pretty fast and that you can hardly score objectives without infantry


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 16:52:14


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Pomander Cask wrote:
I'm a novice when it comes to tactics, but I've been thinking about a tank-based list too. What if it included a significant number of heavy flamers, perhaps boosted with Gunnery Experts and Pyromaniacs? Wouldn't that handle the melee threats pretty well? If chimeras and sentinels ran first, and tried to block things from reaching the heavy guns?

Sadly no. You can't create airtight bubble wrap for tanks with vehicles, the opponent will ignore your chump blocking vehicles, or worse, use them against you by hiding from your shooting in melee. You can only overwatch once, so in bigger games that won't work, and even then, most vehicles will hit on 5's at best, and even 3d6 flamers really isnt doing a lot to the kind of melee threat you need to be scared of. Yeah, 3d6 refilling flamers will mess up some infantry, but it won't stop a smash captain, lord discordant, or flyrant.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 17:44:14


Post by: Maxzero



So with Aggressors being nerfed and Eradicators being even better mass infantry seem more tempting then ever.

The return of footguard?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 18:51:55


Post by: Pyroalchi


I'm reluctant... Aggressors are still pretty good against infantry, just less broken and all the other Marines with their bolters, bolterdiscipline and CC potential should still not have that much trouble getting rid of infantry. And with Eradicators as they are not only vehicles are in danger, I also see big problems for our Bullgryns.

3 Eradicators with their free MM have 8 shots, hitting 5.33, wounding 3.56, doing 2.96 wounds against Slabshields or 1.78 against bruteshields. So they kill 2-3 Bullgryns each shooting phase in Meltarange and slightly less outside of Melta range without any buffs, chapters, rerolls.

Edit: just did the math outside of Melta range: average # of shots to kill a 3W model with 1d6 is 1.36 => so the 3 Eradicators kill 2.18 Bullgryns with slabshields and 1.3 with Bruteshields outside of Melta range and without any buffs, rerolls etc.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 19:31:09


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm reluctant... Aggressors are still pretty good against infantry, just less broken and all the other Marines with their bolters, bolterdiscipline and CC potential should still not have that much trouble getting rid of infantry. And with Eradicators as they are not only vehicles are in danger, I also see big problems for our Bullgryns.

3 Eradicators with their free MM have 8 shots, hitting 5.33, wounding 3.56, doing 2.96 wounds against Slabshields or 1.78 against bruteshields. So they kill 2-3 Bullgryns each shooting phase in Meltarange and slightly less outside of Melta range without any buffs, chapters, rerolls.

Edit: just did the math outside of Melta range: average # of shots to kill a 3W model with 1d6 is 1.36 => so the 3 Eradicators kill 2.18 Bullgryns with slabshields and 1.3 with Bruteshields outside of Melta range and without any buffs, rerolls etc.

Yeah but if they're shooting your Bullgryn they're not shooting your tanks. Maybe with proper setup between Bullgryn, demolishers, and manticores with an infantry screen you can put the player in a damned if he does/damned if he doesn't scenario.

It's that, or try reserving our big heavy hitter units and just have a bunch of infantry on the table turn one to buy you time and bait enemy units into the open. Demolishers outflanking can hit most of the table and be wherever you need them, and the manticores can literally be dropped wherever, they don't care.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/03 19:34:45


Post by: Pyroalchi


Of course, I missed half of my thoughts. I meant that Eradicators are not only good at killing vehicles, but that even when you bring (almost) none, they are still quite efficient at killing squads of Bullgryns. So an "all infantry guard" being matched against a SM army containing Eradicators might still provide enough targets for them to win back their points in one or two shooting phases

Edit: just heard that the MM costs them 10 points. Just for completeness. But the point still stands


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/04 02:31:32


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Wait, those freaks are 24 inch range AND doubletap AND extra damage on their meltas AND reroll all hits next to a chaptermaster AND its only 10 points?

You're kidding


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/04 04:11:59


Post by: hangnailnz


I know that seems pretty strong, but on the other hand, they need to sell the models, so they have to be worth the hefty price tag.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/04 05:57:41


Post by: Pyroalchi


The extra damage of course only triggers within half range but apart from that: yes


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/05 09:40:32


Post by: p5freak


What do you think about armoured sentinels ? They are M8 T6 W6 3+ sv with multilaser for 35 pts. Sounds like good value for me. Nine of them are a lot wounds to remove. In a vehicle heavy list with hellhounds and LRBTs they might draw some heavy fire away from the hellhounds and tanks.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/05 11:38:57


Post by: some bloke


 p5freak wrote:
What do you think about armoured sentinels ? They are M8 T6 W6 3+ sv with multilaser for 35 pts. Sounds like good value for me. Nine of them are a lot wounds to remove. In a vehicle heavy list with hellhounds and LRBTs they might draw some heavy fire away from the hellhounds and tanks.


They would also help to screen the basilisks from being deepstrike'd. If you're on short edges you canhave the sentinels at the front, basilisks at the back, and 18" between the two where nothing can land. That should keep the meltas at bay.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/05 11:53:04


Post by: p5freak


 some bloke wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
What do you think about armoured sentinels ? They are M8 T6 W6 3+ sv with multilaser for 35 pts. Sounds like good value for me. Nine of them are a lot wounds to remove. In a vehicle heavy list with hellhounds and LRBTs they might draw some heavy fire away from the hellhounds and tanks.


They would also help to screen the basilisks from being deepstrike'd. If you're on short edges you canhave the sentinels at the front, basilisks at the back, and 18" between the two where nothing can land. That should keep the meltas at bay.


Sounds like a good idea. I was thinking using them as objective holders, because guardsmen die almost instantly. I also think about using manticores instead of basilisks. They can only shoot four times, but have 2D6 shots, can get +1 to hit when they see the target, can fire twice, get one dice rerolled with gunnery experts, and get fixed 3 damage with tank ace. Jury rigged repairs would help the sentinels, hellhounds, LRBTs, manticores.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/05 15:29:57


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Hey guys.

I had a 2k point game on Saturday against Tau and was my first game of 9th. Figured I would try a lot of the strategies I was reading on here.

Core of my list - 1 LRTC with hammer of sundance, 1 LRTC demolisher + 2 LRBT Demolishers. 2 squads of bullgryn riding in x2 flamer Chimeras. 60 infantry boys and assorted charachters/heavy weapon squads.
He brought farsite enclaves with a riptide, 5 broadsides, 7 crisis suits, 1 coldstar commander with missiles, 1 commander with x4 melta, + assorted infantry.

I ended up winning by quite a lot on points, but with almost all of my threat units killed.

Basically I turn one move move moved onto 3 objectives, had the 3 Demolishers and 2 chimeras race up towards his threats. So for AM, I felt like I had really good board pressure. Granted, it was against tau, but still felt good. His riptide point click destroyed a tank every turn, and his broad sides did work, but they couldnt deal with all 5 tanks rushing up. Got in his face, secured the back line and objectives, had the hammer of sunderance commander laying out supporting fire, and took the victory. Honestly with its 3+ invul the riptide didnt even feel like a worthy target to shoot, as I felt like I would be throwing all my firepower away for little return. So I largely ignored it and tried to shoot at everything else. Also, the 60 infrantry were so important with denying deep strike. I had my entire deployment zoned out.
Worked alright, I was wondering if you guys think throwing everything at it till it dies is the better strat or if ignoring it is the right play. Even without shield drones riptides feel incredibly point efficient.

Really the only reason I won was because of the board pressure. Everyone is for sure correct when they say board pressure is incredibly important in 9th. Without that pressure I would have lost for sure.
I was excited to test out the chimeras, and I was mostly satisfied with them. Honestly I liked how they performed more than how the bullgryn inside did. Maybe nexttime I replace the bullgryns with a x4 melta command squad? Or maybe just 10 more normal boys. Either way it feels like whats inside is secondary, what matters is the full speed ahead ramshackling double flamering death machine that is the chimera.

Also I didnt take a manticore (as I dont have one) but thinking about how it would have performed that game.... I see why people say they are an auto include.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/05 17:46:31


Post by: Dukeofstuff


So I boiled down the Astra "update with the new space marine weapons" FAQ and stick it in here as a public service. Its at https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/05/codex-updates-wargear-profiles-and-rules/ if you want to do reading it yourself.

Spoiler:

Baneblades can now fall back and still charge!
Tallarn can advance and fire anything but heavy weapons in infantry without any minus!

BUT Even BEST is the FAQ that makes infantry squads only 40 points .. even with a heavy weapon team formed in them! (hahhaaha, jk. see -136 of AM faq.)
chainswords appear to still suck in our hands, no strength bump.
stormshields? free wargear.
Flamers and heavy flamers? range 12, its official! Scions could even use them coming out of deepstrike if they were, for example, ap-1 lambda lions flamers, just as their grenades sometimes end up useful. Any other flavor of imperial gaurd could (if you wish) stuff 2 special weapons squads with 6 flamers into a valkyrie and drop it out for 6d6 hits of antihorde (and, 12 lasgun shots for another +6 hits). Not exactly terrible, if you have been (like me) staring at useless flamers all of eighth.
HKM are S10 now.
Multicannon, gun, and multimelta now do d6+2 under half range, and are asd3, 1, and heavy2, respecitvely.
heavy bolters DO 2d damage, even the named one payback, now a sort of cool gun for a lone character. Twins do exactly twice as many shots.
plasma weapons get hot and kill you on unmodified one's as we have been expecting.
Force staves go to +3S, -1, d3D .. which means a lonely psyker primaris who happens to have the deathmask of oleanus becomes an actual melee powerhouse, by gaurd standards.
Powerfists are x2/-3/2 and powerswords are +1S/-3/1.

So basically we have a couple good thigns out of this. Per the faq, and surprisingly, a potential use for a melee baneblade backed up by a bunch of catachans with powerswords and fists, led by a melee oriented psyker? Why not!

A wall of heavy bolter equipped manticores and basililsiks clustered around sgt harkness blasting away at the intercesors for 2D each? Why not! Its not just secondary weapons anymore, we can move and fire to full effect so perhaps instead of an artillery PARK, we have a motor rally to get all the secondaries into line of sight, and harkness just goes for a jog.

(Also, a wall of heavy flamer equipped leman russes, carefully deployed, can enter from the side of the wall and spray their suprised opponent with something like 9d6 hits + whatever the hell their big guns do. Nothing to sneeze at. Or a single baneblade with 10 heavy flamers on it could put out (if it rolled PERFECT) 60 hits in overwatch before it stooped to using its guns that need to aim. Even against snarky basterd marines who charge in reliably from 12 inches exactly, flame ON!)

Interestingly and annoyingly both, stormshields update appears universal -- and affects crusaders (per the faq in the sisters AND the faq of the gaurd).So they are now down (even Gottfred) to 3+/4++ armor (because it gives them a +1 to save built in. This has the unintended effect of making their ACTUAL ARMOR they wear relevant, and I will show you how...
So now, 10 crusaders with +1 to save from their shield and in cover (+1 to save) and gone to ground (+1 to save) AND helped by a psyker (yet another +1/1++ to save) would be able to save as 4+ minus shield effect/cover/strat/spell or as an effective ZERO save, meaning they effectively ignore ap-1 and ap-2 if you buff the hell out of them, and even a titan can't move them past their 3++ invuln. I think that might have use, they can (albeit a bit only 1 unit) become one of the best reslience choices we currently have. Sure, they CAN be killed, but they are tough now the way sisters of battle can be tough, and having them as the solution to a single contested forward objective might be a game winner/loser decision. Also a second astropath, if brought, could potentially hand them a -1 to be hit as well. That isn't maybe the best unit or type of model on the board, but if it makes a hard to remove bumper at a front objective, ...


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/05 19:32:55


Post by: MrMoustaffa


As far as I'm concerned reading the changes, nothing incredible, but since they're free buffs for now, all good and welcome changes. Just remember, these weapons are being used against us as well.

Random thoughts
*As a guy who runs Catachans, powerswords seem like a no brainer on infantry squads if you plan on melee. 4 S5 ap3 attacks is enough to actually have the guard squad do something to marines and you can wound enemy vehicles on 5's. It's only chip damage but for a screen that's gonna be in melee anyways just makes sense to me. Powerfists are more reliable on officers now with flat 2, makes me very happy.
*Manticores were already autoinclude, the s10 buff to the hunter killer means with full payload it should always be taken for a flat 6 damage hit on call in a pinch. I have been using the auger array for it as well, just to give as much chance as possible it hits. This is nastiest in small games, but is still useful even up to 2k. The HK missile can and will one shot characters who are not careful. Plus with the heavy bolter and flamer changes there's more reason to make use of the hull weapon as well, with the heavy bolter probably being better now, though flamer isn't a bad choice
*Infantry flamers are still pretty pointless, but the range increase is nice. Heavy flamers coming out of reserves and being in range will have some niche uses that could be powerful, aka Valhallan flamer spam for clearing vehicles, leman Russe's rolling on with Triple heavy flamers, etc. I'm not crazy about it, but someone will find a use for it. Scout sentinels with heavy flamers might be a nice little objectives taker early on.
*Plasma is better for us thanks to not killing us on 2's, but otherwise eh, same ol same ol.
*I was having good luck with melta before by doing the old "melta hedge" with my screening squads. I usually only get a couple melta hits a game, but as that hit usually means a dead character or vehicle, I find they're worth the points usually. Keeps those few surviving squads at the end of the game relevant for more than just standing on something, makes characters think twice about going near them. The new changes make melta more consistent. A demolisher commander with multimelta and lascannon is one of the nastiest units point for point, provided he lives long enough to shoot.
*Heavy bolter spam could be a viable tactic. Wounds anything in the game on at least 5's, ap1 is pretty consistently useful, and flat 2 damage makes it pretty handy for everything from marines to vehicles. Spamming them across chimeras, infantry squads, and tanks could add up to more than it would first appear. Will need testing to see for sure though.


What worries me is that these same weapons will be used against us. While I think flamers are pretty trash on our stuff most of the time, they're not always the case with other armies. Deepstriking units with flamers will be nasty for our infantry, and should multi meltas become common with enemy armies tanks will have to be reserved or hidden well to survive enemy alpha strikes. Sisters for example are way nastier now since their main weapons they spam all got serious buffs. Retributors with multimeltas in particular worries me, but sisters can also spam a lot of heavy bolters and flamers, they arguably got a bigger weapon buff than the marines themselves did, since these were the only weapons they use anyways.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/07 11:18:00


Post by: morpheusgotmeout


Dukeofstuff wrote:

Baneblades can now fall back and still charge!


Baneblade chassis have always been able to fall back, shoot, and charge in the same turn. They have also always been able to shoot out of combat, and could also shoot sponsons weapons into combat albeit with no negative to hit.

Baneblade chassis are unusable in 9th as they cannot move with all the terrain, have one-sided line of sight blocking, give up secondaries, and can be one-shot eradicated with ease.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/07 12:46:14


Post by: Twoshoes23


Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.

Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/07 13:06:22


Post by: tneva82


Dukeofstuff wrote:
Wait, those freaks are 24 inch range AND doubletap AND extra damage on their meltas AND reroll all hits next to a chaptermaster AND its only 10 points?

You're kidding


The 10 pts is because new codexes you have cheapest weapon option built in on price and you only pay for upgrades. So since they replace weapon that costs more than 0 pts they get discount.

In IG comparison. You have 3 heavy weapon team each consisting 3 models worth 10 pts each. Let's say cheapest weapon is heavy bolter for 10 pts. Thus each HWT will cost 20 pts. Then if you want to upgrade to say missile launcher at 15 pts in codex point entry it would be - missile launcher 5 pts.

It's different from how 8e did it and more back to how it used to be in 3-7th edition...

(incidentally for infantry squads it would likely be heavy bolter +10, missile launcher +15. But doesn't mean HWT gets discount on weapons. Just that there the heavy bolter price is baked in)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/07 13:20:28


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.

Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.

Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.

Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/07 19:14:51


Post by: hangnailnz


This may have been discussed before, but with Crusader's Acts of Faith - they happen at the start of the turn. I couldn't find a clear definition of when that is in the 9th turn structure - is it before or after Command Phase? If before, this could be used for some sneaky objective grabbing...


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/08 05:52:06


Post by: p5freak


Its unclear. I would say before the command phase.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/08 12:13:57


Post by: Niiai


I have a GSC question, but that part of the forum is as dead as a necron tomb world where somebody pulled the socked out of the wall.

In short GSC has an amasing power to deepstrike, but something needs to start on the board.

I currently own no brood brothers (the name of imperial guard units in the GSC codex) outside of an old chimera and a heavy weapon team.

How druable are regular guard units, heavy weapon teams or chimeraes for holding hole objective? 50 points for 10 dudes seems quite OK. For 10 point more i can pile on a heavy weapon to make sure they can not just be ignored.

(The IG units in the GSC codex is regular guard infantery, both sentinels, heavy weapon teams and the heavy suport version of the leman russ.)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/08 14:32:19


Post by: Dukeofstuff


So, incidentally, I totally second what Moustafa said about leman russ vs any kind of hellhound with meltas.
The leman russes can ALSO use a strategem for maximum shots at enemy vehicles, which opens the possibility of firing your demolisher cannon 12 times, and the generic heavy bolter on the front 3, vs the 2,4,or 6 shots the multimelta gets.

On ambush, however, you have already moved full distance by definition, so you are not grindingly advancing out of the board edge, and you will shoot (assuming you strategem it) 6 times with the demolisher and that means you will miss with 3 of them on average. 12 shots with a demolisher threatens to kill a knight, but 3 hits from a demo only threatens to harm one. While I still think that favors the 35 point more expensive leman russ, the leman russ doesn't also explode if that knight gallant desperately steps over and cuts it in half in melee. So ... I can see using both or either in some situations?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/08 17:07:20


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.

Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.

Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.

Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.


Another way to look at is is:

Is being T8 worth 35 points? S10 is pretty worthless outside of the mirror matchup against Guard because literally nobody else of note is bringing any T8 vehicles [after all there's not that many options out there in the first place, knights is basically unable to play the scoring game, and space marines are taking anything but Land Raiders and Repulsors], and buying extra weapons on the Demolisher kicks it's price up really drastically.

A Devil Dog dies and is overkilled by Eradicators. A Demolisher... also takes an average of 12 wounds from an eradicator salvo, more with Master Artisans or support of any kind so also doesn't really survive the Eradicators. A Relic Contemptor sees them the same as each other, so the extra toughness is also wasted there.

On the other hand, a Devil Dog has +2" of movement, so as Tallarnian you can advance into melta range on T1 and get your +2 damage on all 3-5 shots, which is a pretty sizable bump in power beyond the S10.


Both are pretty equally valid, IMO. I might take a Demolisher if I was Catachan or Cadian, but I might take a Devil Dog if I was Tallarnian or Vostroyan.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/08 18:42:35


Post by: MrMoustaffa


S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.

If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/08 19:36:50


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.

If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.


The Devil Dog's +2 damage autokills those T5 W3 models, while a Demolisher fails to kill one and takes a second shot 1/3 of the time. Which actually, combined with the AP, works out to be worse than the strength's improvement.

I think they're pretty solidly sidegrades to each other. I'd pick Demolisher if I'm going to expect it to mostly be driving slow and getting buffs and re-rolling shot output, I'd pick Hellhound if I'm going to have a range extension and/or go fast.


The fact that Armiger Warglaives cost 3CP and 155points is a real mark against them though.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/09 11:46:38


Post by: some bloke


 Niiai wrote:
I have a GSC question, but that part of the forum is as dead as a necron tomb world where somebody pulled the socked out of the wall.

In short GSC has an amasing power to deepstrike, but something needs to start on the board.

I currently own no brood brothers (the name of imperial guard units in the GSC codex) outside of an old chimera and a heavy weapon team.

How druable are regular guard units, heavy weapon teams or chimeraes for holding hole objective? 50 points for 10 dudes seems quite OK. For 10 point more i can pile on a heavy weapon to make sure they can not just be ignored.

(The IG units in the GSC codex is regular guard infantery, both sentinels, heavy weapon teams and the heavy suport version of the leman russ.)


guard units aren't durable - in cover they're passable, but even T3 with a 3+ save has a fair chance of getting mushed, especially as AP-1 seems to be on the rise.

If you are looking to hold objectives, I recommend the opposite of your approach - try to make it so they can be ignored. Don't go combining a priority target (because it's on an objective) with a priority target (because it has a lascannon), you're just giving the enemy 2 for 1 when they choose to spray some bullets that way. Try to make objective grabbers look weak and no threat, and opponents will have to choose between shooting at the threat and shooting at the objective holder. As soon as you make your pponent have to choose, you give yourself opportunities to exploit poor decisions.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/09 12:27:12


Post by: Pyroalchi


Some other thing I have been contemplating recently: with the new 2 shot MM is there some argument for MM-Servitors accompanied by a techpriest? As far as I know MM are 20 on an infantry model, so 68 points buys 4 bodies with 2 MM and 4 servo arms + another 35 points for a techpriest to bring them up to WS/BS4+.
So to get a bit extreme lets take 3 units + techpriest for 239 points.
Thats 12 shots, 6 hits, so: 14/22 damage outside/inside melta range against a T7, 3+ model, 9.33/14.33 if it has a 5++ (Armigers for example)
10.5/16.5 damage outside/inside melta range against a T8, 3+ model, 7/11 if it has a 5++ (like Knights)
respectivly 4.87/5 dead T4/W2/3+ models (normal marines)
or 3.7/4 dead T5/W3/3+ models (Gravis)

That does not sound to bad I think. Far from Eradicator broken good, but... when you take the techpriest anyway they can well shoot back 50-75% of their costs in a single shooting phase and might even situational be able to hurt something in CC with their servoarms. And with 4+ and two bodies to spare before you loose MM they are not really flimsier than HWTs.





Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/09 21:26:57


Post by: Twoshoes23


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.

If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.


The Devil Dog's +2 damage autokills those T5 W3 models, while a Demolisher fails to kill one and takes a second shot 1/3 of the time. Which actually, combined with the AP, works out to be worse than the strength's improvement.

I think they're pretty solidly sidegrades to each other. I'd pick Demolisher if I'm going to expect it to mostly be driving slow and getting buffs and re-rolling shot output, I'd pick Hellhound if I'm going to have a range extension and/or go fast.


The fact that Armiger Warglaives cost 3CP and 155points is a real mark against them though.
.


I plan on running a retributor squad with 4 MM in a rhino for dedicated anti-tank/ anti- heavy infantry. What I want to provide my enemy is incentive to not shoot that rhino and killing the sisters inside. Thus the devil dog, so the melta buff is just gravy. There is also the splash damage stratagem to reroll wound rolls, which honestly I never consider much because I don’t count on the devil dog to work, just to make my opponent nervous about what it could do. It might do work against large T5 squads as has been pointed out. Seeing as how it is blast now, 1cp to reroll wounds with everyone hugging cover as they should. I also have thought of running my 1 Tank commander as my warlord with grand strategist to draw some fire from the Retributors. I play tallarn, mainly for the ambush stratagem and having the option to ambush in the TC or the devil dog is good game dependent. Since the TC can’t grinding advance from ambush I see that as an advantage to the cheaper and faster devil dog. That said rushing one devil dog into the enemy’s face might draw some fire from the ret’s and let them get their shots off.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/09 22:41:45


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Have you heard of cyclopses?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/10 01:04:19


Post by: U02dah4


 Pyroalchi wrote:
Some other thing I have been contemplating recently: with the new 2 shot MM is there some argument for MM-Servitors accompanied by a techpriest? As far as I know MM are 20 on an infantry model, so 68 points buys 4 bodies with 2 MM and 4 servo arms + another 35 points for a techpriest to bring them up to WS/BS4+.
So to get a bit extreme lets take 3 units + techpriest for 239 points.
Thats 12 shots, 6 hits, so: 14/22 damage outside/inside melta range against a T7, 3+ model, 9.33/14.33 if it has a 5++ (Armigers for example)
10.5/16.5 damage outside/inside melta range against a T8, 3+ model, 7/11 if it has a 5++ (like Knights)
respectivly 4.87/5 dead T4/W2/3+ models (normal marines)
or 3.7/4 dead T5/W3/3+ models (Gravis)

That does not sound to bad I think. Far from Eradicator broken good, but... when you take the techpriest anyway they can well shoot back 50-75% of their costs in a single shooting phase and might even situational be able to hurt something in CC with their servoarms. And with 4+ and two bodies to spare before you loose MM they are not really flimsier than HWTs.





Not really 4 meltas on a command squad is the same number of melta shots at the same points but on a 3+ platform that benefits from regiment and orders and at identical points



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/10 02:14:07


Post by: Dukeofstuff


That's all true -- but there is also a value to needing antitank to remove something. The scions command squad is also range limited, so for example, you have trouble dropping it next to aggressor marines (they auspex you to death before oyu fire.) Multimelta can whack away from 13 inches, if need be, quite safe from that effect, and to kill the tank at t7/11W is a lot harder than t3/4x1W (with 4+ rather than 3+ saves.)

Its harder to screen the tank out, you can bring in from board edge and fire 23.9 inches or so, while careful screening and a few "no deepstrikers in 12 inches" as your front line can leave a melta scions squad 1000 percent useless on the drop.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/10 05:16:55


Post by: Pyroalchi


U02dah4 wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
Some other thing I have been contemplating recently: with the new 2 shot MM is there some argument for MM-Servitors accompanied by a techpriest? As far as I know MM are 20 on an infantry model, so 68 points buys 4 bodies with 2 MM and 4 servo arms + another 35 points for a techpriest to bring them up to WS/BS4+.
So to get a bit extreme lets take 3 units + techpriest for 239 points.
Thats 12 shots, 6 hits, so: 14/22 damage outside/inside melta range against a T7, 3+ model, 9.33/14.33 if it has a 5++ (Armigers for example)
10.5/16.5 damage outside/inside melta range against a T8, 3+ model, 7/11 if it has a 5++ (like Knights)
respectivly 4.87/5 dead T4/W2/3+ models (normal marines)
or 3.7/4 dead T5/W3/3+ models (Gravis)

That does not sound to bad I think. Far from Eradicator broken good, but... when you take the techpriest anyway they can well shoot back 50-75% of their costs in a single shooting phase and might even situational be able to hurt something in CC with their servoarms. And with 4+ and two bodies to spare before you loose MM they are not really flimsier than HWTs.





Not really 4 meltas on a command squad is the same number of melta shots at the same points but on a 3+ platform that benefits from regiment and orders and at identical points



But the servitors have twice the range, a 4+save and only start loosing firepower after two losses also if you take Melters there your CS are free to take Plasma (or even more Melters) instead


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/10 11:25:29


Post by: U02dah4


When those losses are t3 1w models the protection is almost non existent and your deploying by ds so range doesn't matter too much. Either unit is getting one shot


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/10 21:57:45


Post by: godardc


Dukeofstuff wrote:
Have you heard of cyclopses?


Yeah, I own two and they aren't easy to use because of the radius (1d6) and the fact they only move 10". However now in 9th they are better to my opinion if you play them in strategic reserves as the ennemy cannot ignore them. Never tried them in a zone mortalis though, I wish I had. Pretty easy to hide. But, imagine what you could bring for the same 120pts as those two auto destructive cyclopes...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.

Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.

Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.

Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.


Another way to look at is is:

Is being T8 worth 35 points? S10 is pretty worthless outside of the mirror matchup against Guard because literally nobody else of note is bringing any T8 vehicles [after all there's not that many options out there in the first place, knights is basically unable to play the scoring game, and space marines are taking anything but Land Raiders and Repulsors], and buying extra weapons on the Demolisher kicks it's price up really drastically.

A Devil Dog dies and is overkilled by Eradicators. A Demolisher... also takes an average of 12 wounds from an eradicator salvo, more with Master Artisans or support of any kind so also doesn't really survive the Eradicators. A Relic Contemptor sees them the same as each other, so the extra toughness is also wasted there.

On the other hand, a Devil Dog has +2" of movement, so as Tallarnian you can advance into melta range on T1 and get your +2 damage on all 3-5 shots, which is a pretty sizable bump in power beyond the S10.


Both are pretty equally valid, IMO. I might take a Demolisher if I was Catachan or Cadian, but I might take a Devil Dog if I was Tallarnian or Vostroyan.



What +2 movement ?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/11 08:59:42


Post by: morpheusgotmeout


As in, the Hellhound chassis has a 12" M as opposed to a Leman Russ chassis which has 10"


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/11 11:25:11


Post by: U02dah4


Cyclopses are really strong when they hit but need the reroll n shots from catachan or the custom equivalent for consistency

Key thing to remember is they hit friendly

There best use due to tiny size is hiding in terrain and counter attacking. They are squishy if out in the open

For that reason their not great for reserves you don't want to givrvthe enemy the opportunity to shoot them


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/11 16:09:02


Post by: Pyroalchi


I was just browsing a bit through the points changes and noticed something that I personally found interesting (note that I'm not stating it's competetive at all or something):
While the Vengane Weapons Battery Fortification went up 8 points, the Battlecannon on this thing seems to have gone down to 20 it seems. So 108 points gets you a BS5+ Battlecannon on a T8,W10,3+ platform that does not degrade. So average 108/(7 shots x 1/3 hit chance) = 46,3 points per hit

A LRBT comes down to minimum 165 which would be 165/(7/2)= 47.1 points per hit, and worse ratio as soon as he takes damage
A Tank commander comes with a minimum 190 points for 190/(7*2/3)= 40.7 points per hit

Of course, I know the LRBTs also have a Bolter, the option to take sponsons, can be ordered and profit from regimental doctrines. And the Vengance Batteries must target the closest enemy. On the other hand when playing for example against Marines there are few targets that would not be a good target for a Battlecanon as almost everything has at least 2 wounds and nothing is cheap chaff where it is wasted. And 1 CP for the Fortification network does not sound too bad.

Again: I know LRBTs are better, especially with regimental boni and orders etc. But it might still be of interest for one or the other.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/11 18:50:21


Post by: U02dah4


VWB doesn't have grinding advance so 3.5 shots not 7 at 5+ =92.6pts per hit

Now when we factor in regiment and other buffs such as auras... its not even a contest


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/11 19:24:40


Post by: Pyroalchi


Ah, sorry completely missed that. Yeah, you are totally right. In that case it really makes no sense.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/12 05:29:20


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Twoshoes23 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
S10 doesn't matter as much for vehicles, it does matter for killing t5, of which I'm seeing a lot in my area. Plague marines, tcav, gravis, lots of necron stuff, etc. Plus the demolisher has such a ridiculously higher weight of fire it's hard to not like.

If I wanted a fast melta platform, I'd rather just take armiger warglaives honestly. Yes it's not an IG option normally but they're faster, tougher, have a nasty melee profile, and have a lot more strategem and abilities support.


The Devil Dog's +2 damage autokills those T5 W3 models, while a Demolisher fails to kill one and takes a second shot 1/3 of the time. Which actually, combined with the AP, works out to be worse than the strength's improvement.

I think they're pretty solidly sidegrades to each other. I'd pick Demolisher if I'm going to expect it to mostly be driving slow and getting buffs and re-rolling shot output, I'd pick Hellhound if I'm going to have a range extension and/or go fast.


The fact that Armiger Warglaives cost 3CP and 155points is a real mark against them though.
.


I plan on running a retributor squad with 4 MM in a rhino for dedicated anti-tank/ anti- heavy infantry. What I want to provide my enemy is incentive to not shoot that rhino and killing the sisters inside. Thus the devil dog, so the melta buff is just gravy. There is also the splash damage stratagem to reroll wound rolls, which honestly I never consider much because I don’t count on the devil dog to work, just to make my opponent nervous about what it could do. It might do work against large T5 squads as has been pointed out. Seeing as how it is blast now, 1cp to reroll wounds with everyone hugging cover as they should. I also have thought of running my 1 Tank commander as my warlord with grand strategist to draw some fire from the Retributors. I play tallarn, mainly for the ambush stratagem and having the option to ambush in the TC or the devil dog is good game dependent. Since the TC can’t grinding advance from ambush I see that as an advantage to the cheaper and faster devil dog. That said rushing one devil dog into the enemy’s face might draw some fire from the ret’s and let them get their shots off.


So, your one squad of Rets isn't that valuable that you want to distraction carnifex for them with your warlord command tank, IMO.

Also, like, in Sisters, you have a lot of stuff that's going to warrant attention, and pretty much arguably you'd want the Rets to take fire over your Repentia boxes or something.

That said, you can put the Rets into Strategic Reserve, and bring them on on outflank and do your best Eradicator impression.



Dukeofstuff wrote:Have you heard of cyclopses?


Yeah, they're pretty fun. Stupid, but fun.



godardc wrote:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
Have you heard of cyclopses?


Yeah, I own two and they aren't easy to use because of the radius (1d6) and the fact they only move 10". However now in 9th they are better to my opinion if you play them in strategic reserves as the ennemy cannot ignore them. Never tried them in a zone mortalis though, I wish I had. Pretty easy to hide. But, imagine what you could bring for the same 120pts as those two auto destructive cyclopes...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Just ordered a hydra because 1) always had a thing for flak tanks and always wanted one and 2) anticipating it loosing its -1 to hit based off the space marine codex anti air reveals.

Also, did you guys notice the devil dog meltacannon change? Blast assault d3 new melta rule means 4 avg melta shots with a multi melta sponson. Is it worth it over the hellhound? I always tallarn ambushed mine with 2 squads of plasma vets.

Still has the problem it's had since the demolisher buff sadly. Aka why pay 130pts for 4 melta shots when I can pay 35pts more and get on average an equal amount of shots outflanking or 3 more if grinding advancing on a Demolisher? Not to mention the demolisher is tougher, can take additional weapons, and can receive orders, on top of having S10 which is crucial for tank hunting.

Devil dog is one of those units that is probably not bad in and of itself, it's just why would I bother when I can take a demolisher? At least it's not a Banewolf, those are actually useless, whereas the only niche a devil dog really fills is a somewhat fast melta platform. Problem is the demolisher can do it better at range, and deepstriking or outflanking melta infantry are even faster than a devil dog can be while being cheaper in points and CP to boot. Yeah I don't get melta rule out of reserves but I can afford two to three times the shots on infantry to make up for it.


Another way to look at is is:

Is being T8 worth 35 points? S10 is pretty worthless outside of the mirror matchup against Guard because literally nobody else of note is bringing any T8 vehicles [after all there's not that many options out there in the first place, knights is basically unable to play the scoring game, and space marines are taking anything but Land Raiders and Repulsors], and buying extra weapons on the Demolisher kicks it's price up really drastically.

A Devil Dog dies and is overkilled by Eradicators. A Demolisher... also takes an average of 12 wounds from an eradicator salvo, more with Master Artisans or support of any kind so also doesn't really survive the Eradicators. A Relic Contemptor sees them the same as each other, so the extra toughness is also wasted there.

On the other hand, a Devil Dog has +2" of movement, so as Tallarnian you can advance into melta range on T1 and get your +2 damage on all 3-5 shots, which is a pretty sizable bump in power beyond the S10.


Both are pretty equally valid, IMO. I might take a Demolisher if I was Catachan or Cadian, but I might take a Devil Dog if I was Tallarnian or Vostroyan.



What +2 movement ?


As pointed out, Devil Dogs have a 12" movement, which if Tallarn becomes 12+1d6" movement, which is decent ability to get Melta on a target.

A Demolisher threatens Grinding Advance out to 29", a Devil Dog threatens Melta out to 24+d6" [average about the same]


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/12 07:46:04


Post by: Pyroalchi


As you already found what I have been missing on the Battlecannon Vengance battery another thing from Mathhammering, just so that you might point out if I miss something crucial:

Vengance weapons batteries with Quad Icarus Lascannon (168 points) vs. Hydra (110 points) in the AA role.
I mathammered a bit against various profiles. The numbers for the W1 units is # of models killed, the others are damage done.
Spoiler:
Hydra Quad Icarus Lascannon
Gargoyle (3/1/6+) 4,44 1,67
Seraphim (3/1/3+) 2,96 1,67
Battlesuit (5/5/3+) 4,74 4,67
Dakkajet /6/12/4+, hard to hit) 7,41 6,22
Valkyrie (7/14/3+, hard to hit) 4,44 6,22
Repulsor (8/16/3+) 1,19 4,67



Or to get an impression of damage/cost both values normed to 100 points of Hydra/Quad Lascannon
Spoiler:
Hydra Quad Icarus Lascannon
Gargoyle (3/1/6+) 4,04 0,99
Seraphim (3/1/3+) 2,69 0,99
Battlesuit (5/5/3+) 4,31 2,78
Dakkajet /6/12/4+, hard to hit) 6,73 3,70
Valkyrie (7/14/3+, hard to hit) 4,04 3,70
Repulsor (8/16/3+) 1,08 2,78



Edit: ignore this part "So from the looks of it, the Vengance Battery is better against anything with multiple wounds, toughness above 3 and good saves and especially good against the T7 and T8 flyers of Guard and Marines as well as the Hovertanks of SM." The "must target closest enemy" should be less of a problem with flyers, it does not degrade and is 2 points tougher than the Hydra, which makes it harder against S4,S7 and S8 shooting which is pretty common. 96'' range should make "immobile" matter less and it can still shoot up the closest aircraft, even if someone is within 1'', which the Hydra cannot do.

So again I'm not claiming that this is super duper powerful, but am I missing something elementary when considering that for some AA firepower?


Edit: sorry, miscalculated and corrected it, The Hydra is still better against anything except the repulsor point for point, as long as it is not bracketed. So I guess I answered it myself.




Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/12 17:41:48


Post by: Mud Turkey 13


Does anyone run an Inquisitor with your Guard? Do you have any pros or cons to bringing one along?

I have always wanted to make an Inquisitor, and brining him and three or four squads of Scions to act as his retinue might be cool to throw in with my, otherwise, pure tank list I plan to create.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/12 23:11:53


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I run a malleus inquisitor for the psyker support, for his excellent actual abilities. Mine usually has one of 2 loadouts.
el cheapo. absolute minimum cost of points for a generic, t3 and s3 psyker with a 4+ save. Chainsword and lastpistol. and 1 cp, which upgrades him to be able to cast, know, and deny an extra spell, and gives him a relic (I usually use the -1 to be wounded relic, which makes him effectively t4, and hard to snipe). This is for pure psy power, and he gets castigate (which can sort of snip with mortal wounds) and dominate (which is just fun, trust me, when someone brings his eradicator with its shoot 2 times 2 meltas at the same target and you designate that to be his own unit. Mr. Mahrine multimelta eradicator... can actually shoot himself, I think, if all 4 hit, and the other 2 marines die to the 2+ wounds they recieve with the ap-4 shots coming in. Pull that off one time, and you make twice his points back with 1 spell.)
That's awesome.

el more expensivo. Throw a combimelta on him and give him psychic pursuit and castigate. This combo is made to pair with a malstrom spell from someone else, and with the sniper commisar relic bolt pistol (and possibly even the scion bolt relic pistol that iotan gorgones can carry) to do massive damage to rear echelon characters. As long as by rear echelon, you mean 12 inches.

Either guy can in a pinch just castigate and smite, as well. Which is a good deal in an army where smite + malstrom is the closest equivalent, and to reliably do those two, you need a primaris psyker and an astropath (so its a few points more than el cheapo and a few less than el expensivo.

I usually name him "charley martel" of course, cause he is a malleus. (There would be more to the pun if he had an actual thunderhammer, but that's crazy pricey.)

Pros. Cheap psyker addition with a variety of powers that overlap in function some gaurd damage powers, and broaden the palette of utility powers. Free high morale in his area. A nice combimelta that can snipe.
Cons. Some folk don't want to run more characters and especially not more psykers, as you end up with people scoring 15/15 for abhor the witch and 15/15 for 3 psykers and 2 gaurd officers dead, which are both VERY VERY easy to have happen if you carry that many. Even adding in protection doesn't protect well, as the ogryn bodygaurd is itself a 3 point loss to your character assasination points when the enemy kills it trying to kill your psyker gaurd folk.

If you rather not put him into the army as a loner, a small inquisitor detachment COULD be run like this. Its suboptimal, though.
inquisitor (again I like malleus) (-1 cp for extra psyker power (which is itself a trait you can add warlord style) and a freebie relic.
1 acolyte as a character
1 acolye as a character
6 acolytes as plasma totin assasination guys whom you can give psychic pursuit to, and they can then snipe with 6 plasma guns. Not shabby.

That inquisitor would have his own wounds to lose, AND the wounds of his 8 acolytes, basically, so he has a couple t3 very easy to kill shield drones, but he is still hard to kill and the drones are very expensive for what you get out of them. I believe character acolytes cost a bit more but have 3wound each, and I don't know if they act as bodygaurd drones like the plasma guys would. Magazine in other room syndrome ... and me too lazy to fetch.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/13 16:15:42


Post by: Mud Turkey 13


Dukeofstuff wrote:
I run a malleus inquisitor for the psyker support, for his excellent actual abilities. Mine usually has one of 2 loadouts.
el cheapo. absolute minimum cost of points for a generic, t3 and s3 psyker with a 4+ save. Chainsword and lastpistol. and 1 cp, which upgrades him to be able to cast, know, and deny an extra spell, and gives him a relic (I usually use the -1 to be wounded relic, which makes him effectively t4, and hard to snipe). This is for pure psy power, and he gets castigate (which can sort of snip with mortal wounds) and dominate (which is just fun, trust me, when someone brings his eradicator with its shoot 2 times 2 meltas at the same target and you designate that to be his own unit. Mr. Mahrine multimelta eradicator... can actually shoot himself, I think, if all 4 hit, and the other 2 marines die to the 2+ wounds they recieve with the ap-4 shots coming in. Pull that off one time, and you make twice his points back with 1 spell.)
That's awesome.

el more expensivo. Throw a combimelta on him and give him psychic pursuit and castigate. This combo is made to pair with a malstrom spell from someone else, and with the sniper commisar relic bolt pistol (and possibly even the scion bolt relic pistol that iotan gorgones can carry) to do massive damage to rear echelon characters. As long as by rear echelon, you mean 12 inches.

Either guy can in a pinch just castigate and smite, as well. Which is a good deal in an army where smite + malstrom is the closest equivalent, and to reliably do those two, you need a primaris psyker and an astropath (so its a few points more than el cheapo and a few less than el expensivo.

I usually name him "charley martel" of course, cause he is a malleus. (There would be more to the pun if he had an actual thunderhammer, but that's crazy pricey.)

Pros. Cheap psyker addition with a variety of powers that overlap in function some gaurd damage powers, and broaden the palette of utility powers. Free high morale in his area. A nice combimelta that can snipe.
Cons. Some folk don't want to run more characters and especially not more psykers, as you end up with people scoring 15/15 for abhor the witch and 15/15 for 3 psykers and 2 gaurd officers dead, which are both VERY VERY easy to have happen if you carry that many. Even adding in protection doesn't protect well, as the ogryn bodygaurd is itself a 3 point loss to your character assasination points when the enemy kills it trying to kill your psyker gaurd folk.

If you rather not put him into the army as a loner, a small inquisitor detachment COULD be run like this. Its suboptimal, though.
inquisitor (again I like malleus) (-1 cp for extra psyker power (which is itself a trait you can add warlord style) and a freebie relic.
1 acolyte as a character
1 acolye as a character
6 acolytes as plasma totin assasination guys whom you can give psychic pursuit to, and they can then snipe with 6 plasma guns. Not shabby.

That inquisitor would have his own wounds to lose, AND the wounds of his 8 acolytes, basically, so he has a couple t3 very easy to kill shield drones, but he is still hard to kill and the drones are very expensive for what you get out of them. I believe character acolytes cost a bit more but have 3wound each, and I don't know if they act as bodygaurd drones like the plasma guys would. Magazine in other room syndrome ... and me too lazy to fetch.



Thank you! That was quite informative. The psker presence would be very useful.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 03:57:40


Post by: MrMoustaffa


One nice trick for inquisitors is that 5+ invuln save they can give infantry. If you're feeling lucky, you can stick that and pyschic barrier on a unit of purely slabshields to effectively have the invuln shield and the slabshield on each model at the same time. Of course it can be easily shut down with denial, so it's a bit risky.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 11:26:30


Post by: Pyroalchi


This question might sound a bit odd, but I thought here might be the closest place for this question:
I'm considering for modelling reasons to build some Miasman Redcowls (the dudes from the Codex book with the flamer affinity). I would prefer them to be all (heavy) flamers without the need for normal lasguns, which units that are legal for imperial guard can do that and still have a baseline human statline?

So far I came up with (Scion) Command Squads, DKOK heavy weapons squads and theoretically Inquisition Acolytes.
Regarding the latter: if I put a bunch of flamer acolytes and some DKOK Heavy flamer squads in a detachment, does anything negative happen? As far as I know DKOK have no regimental doctrine that would be lost from a "non pure detachment" and as long as I still stick to the FOC I should still be battleforged, right?


Edit: or are there any other units that can be all flamers?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 12:16:29


Post by: Mud Turkey 13


 Pyroalchi wrote:
This question might sound a bit odd, but I thought here might be the closest place for this question:
I'm considering for modelling reasons to build some Miasman Redcowls (the dudes from the Codex book with the flamer affinity). I would prefer them to be all (heavy) flamers without the need for normal lasguns, which units that are legal for imperial guard can do that and still have a baseline human statline?

So far I came up with (Scion) Command Squads, DKOK heavy weapons squads and theoretically Inquisition Acolytes.
Regarding the latter: if I put a bunch of flamer acolytes and some DKOK Heavy flamer squads in a detachment, does anything negative happen? As far as I know DKOK have no regimental doctrine that would be lost from a "non pure detachment" and as long as I still stick to the FOC I should still be battleforged, right?


Edit: or are there any other units that can be all flamers?


I cannot answer your question about which units can take all flamers, but adding Inquisition forces to an Imperial detachment does not break its doctrines or chapter tactics or anything like that.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 12:43:47


Post by: Pyroalchi


As far as I have seen, that is only true for "Agents of the Imperium", which are the Inquisitors, but the Acolytes seem to lack that Keyword.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 15:47:44


Post by: Fishborne


I wanted to put servitors and an enginseer in my army. Since they have the <forgeworld> keyword does that mean they benefit from any of the adeptus mechanicus special rules? An example would be can I use stratagems on them from the mechanicus book?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 18:19:14


Post by: U02dah4


If they have forgeworld keyword they are targetable by forgeworld targeting stratagems but you require an admec detachment to unlock them


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 23:08:49


Post by: Dukeofstuff


I note that there is a sisters heavy support thing, sort of analogous to a devastator squad, the name I am forgetting, that can take all multimelta or all heavy flamer. That's a possibility for you -- you could sneak in a sisters detachment of 3 of them, and they ARE purely human, but you could sneak them in as valourous hearts with a sister behind them (the singer that grants -1 extra ap ignore) and thus give them iggy 1 and 2 ap. So they would be really hard to shift units and give your army a flamer group in the center of..
cannoness (with combiflamer)
3 x 3 squads retributors (superior with combiflamer, 4x retributors with heavy flamer)
imagifier (for -1 AND -2 ignore)

Sure, you don't get a total sistes army, but you can actually if you wanted to load these flamer gals into 3 flamer tanks, for a ground mobile rocking inferno of flamers. While they aRE human statline, the sisters get the benefit of power armor saves!

That's potentially just from the sisters 4d6 normal flamer hits, 12d6 heavy flamer hits (+4 range? is that really 16 inch flamers) and 6d6 immolator turret flamer hits.

I think that gets you started really solidly, too, because you are in transports .. then you can be in cover .. AND ignore a LOT of ap while the enemy tries to pop you and you fail most of your saves only on a 2+. For the maximal humor, include a hospitaler sister as well, just to keep bringing them back.

Editor's note. DOS means well, but he confesses he is a gaurd player who has dabbled in sistes only theoretically as yet and hasn't glued more than 3 squads together. Doesn't own any of these retributioners and only one immolator tank/transport. But thinks this would be a cool themeatic concept with perhaps some resilience.


So, New topic? I am invited -- I own a ticket now -- to a GT tournament in 2 weeks. My usual army is (as many of you know) something like this in scions/psykers and usually a single lonely manticore in the corner.

Suggestions are VERY welcome. I have 2 weeks to paint up to snuff. My likely army will get posted in the army list (feel free to chime in on any strength or weakness you see) in a few minutes. I haven't gotten many competitive games in in nine and I usually avoid GT tournaments (I play in small tournaments but never a GT in my life, their longer days mean I can't usually get off work. So I want to do as well as I can, of course, lest the other people I know all laugh at me.)


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 23:53:04


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Dukeofstuff wrote:
I note that there is a sisters heavy support thing, sort of analogous to a devastator squad, the name I am forgetting, that can take all multimelta or all heavy flamer. That's a possibility for you -- you could sneak in a sisters detachment of 3 of them, and they ARE purely human, but you could sneak them in as valourous hearts with a sister behind them (the singer that grants -1 extra ap ignore) and thus give them iggy 1 and 2 ap. So they would be really hard to shift units and give your army a flamer group in the center of..
cannoness (with combiflamer)
3 x 3 squads retributors (superior with combiflamer, 4x retributors with heavy flamer)
imagifier (for -1 AND -2 ignore)

Sure, you don't get a total sistes army, but you can actually if you wanted to load these flamer gals into 3 flamer tanks, for a ground mobile rocking inferno of flamers. While they aRE human statline, the sisters get the benefit of power armor saves!

That's potentially just from the sisters 4d6 normal flamer hits, 12d6 heavy flamer hits (+4 range? is that really 16 inch flamers) and 6d6 immolator turret flamer hits.

I think that gets you started really solidly, too, because you are in transports .. then you can be in cover .. AND ignore a LOT of ap while the enemy tries to pop you and you fail most of your saves only on a 2+. For the maximal humor, include a hospitaler sister as well, just to keep bringing them back.

Editor's note. DOS means well, but he confesses he is a gaurd player who has dabbled in sistes only theoretically as yet and hasn't glued more than 3 squads together. Doesn't own any of these retributioners and only one immolator tank/transport. But thinks this would be a cool themeatic concept with perhaps some resilience.


So, New topic? I am invited -- I own a ticket now -- to a GT tournament in 2 weeks. My usual army is (as many of you know) something like this in scions/psykers and usually a single lonely manticore in the corner.

Suggestions are VERY welcome. I have 2 weeks to paint up to snuff. My likely army will get posted in the army list (feel free to chime in on any strength or weakness you see) in a few minutes. I haven't gotten many competitive games in in nine and I usually avoid GT tournaments (I play in small tournaments but never a GT in my life, their longer days mean I can't usually get off work. So I want to do as well as I can, of course, lest the other people I know all laugh at me.)



As someone who plays Sisters and Guard... I wouldn't add such a detachment to a Guard army. I wouldn't add it to a Sisters army either.

Like, seriously, don't go that ham on Rets with Heavy Flamers. You don't want flame guns that badly to have 18 heavy flamers, period, much less to pay that many points and CP for them. Arguably, you don't want the flame guns at all.


Honestly, I'm not entirely certain adding Sisters to Guard really improves your army as a Guard army, and adding Guard to Sisters almost certainly makes your Sisters army worse.

Retributors have the following options:
Heavy Bolters - As Guard, every one of your tanks comes with one of these. And even at damage 2, they're not nearly worth writing home about. You don't need to buy 4 more of them for an additional CP cost.
Heavy Flamers - Compared with Heavy Bolters, Flamers basically exist for use in overwatch. Except overwatch costs a CP and is 1/turn, and of course it doesn't actually un-stick your tanks, and of course if you have them on Rets they're not able to fire overwatch in support of all the things you care about not having charged, so like yeah, pass. Also, like, your tanks can all take them if you really, really want flame guns, and your tanks move faster so will be able to use them better anyway. It takes 2CP for Rets to equal the threat range of a 10" move tank, and a 12" move tank has much more threat.
Multimeltas - Now we're cooking with gas. This is what Rets are for right now, using their multimeltas to do a credible Eradicator impression. Except, they cost more and are squishier than Eradicators, and you're Guard, not Sisters, so you might as well get the best choice for those 2CP and not settle for second best. Just take Eradicators and do your thing. Make them Raven Guard so you can deep strike them anywhere. Make them Salamanders so everyone hates you. Whatever. Profit.


If you're souping in Sisters, you should be pulling in the stuff sisters are good at that you aren't: close quarters combat. Ms. Stabby the Canoness, Repentia, Arcos, Mortifiers, etc. are the units you're looking to add to your Guard army.



Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/14 23:59:26


Post by: dominuschao


DOS I must live vicariously through your army.

I do now humbly propose scions with a dash of space wives. Including at least 1 unit of fully tooled MM retributors to clown on all those erads.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 16:44:41


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


dominuschao wrote:
DOS I must live vicariously through your army.

I do now humbly propose scions with a dash of space wives. Including at least 1 unit of fully tooled MM retributors to clown on all those erads.


First off, seriously?



Second off, just take the Eradicators. They're cheaper, tougher, and have better support for the same or fewer points. They're a lot tougher. Also, the Space Marine Chapter rules and stratagems are better than the Sisters of Battle order rules and stratagems for melta-armed troops. Like raven guard will let your infiltrate outflank to pick the targets you want when Sisters would be confined to walking on at the board edge, Salamanders will give them wound re-rolls, you can take a custom chapter success to unlock the stratagems while also having like extended range and +1 armor, etc.

By comparison, Valorous Heart requires you to invest in support options to be good, which since they're an add-on unit to a mostly Guard army you don't want to invest in, and Bloody Rose, the meta Sisters order, benefits melee units. Argent Shroud could theoretically benefit you, but when you outflank on from strategic reserves you can't advance anyway, and for Our Martyred lady you won't have lost any models when you walk on and shoot. You proceed to die immediately in the next turn because you're T3 Sv3+ within 12" of the enemy.

In short, if you're going to plug and play a melta unit into your Guard list, Eradicators are better than Rets. Or, staying in Guard and not paying the CP tax, you can buy a Devil Dog for 130 points with a Multimelta to do a reasonably convincing if less reliable Eradicator impression coming off the outflank. Or just buy a Leman Russ Demolisher and drive up the board. There are a lot of options you have for this capability, and while Rets aren't the worst one, if you're going to pay the 2 or 3 CP to include a second detachment for an out-of-faction unit, you really shouldn't settle for second or third best.




If you're dead set on SistersxGuard, focus on taking Mortifiers and/or Repentia. Mortifiers are very plug and play because they don't receive order bonuses anyway, and are solid, cheap, moderately resilient, and reasonably killy. Repentia are the Sisters' power unit, and will kill things in close quarters combat after your deliver them from a Rhino. Both of these units add something you don't have as IG: fast moving, high lethality melee units that can get up the board quickly to quickly apply pressure to the enemy and also demand immediate servicing. They'll take fire off of your tanks and men following behind them, contain the enemy while they're alive, and of course, kill them very dead very quickly.



By the time you're incorporating 140 point units of Multimeltas in 130 point armored transports into your SistersxGuard list, you're reaching the point where the Sisters half is essentially better at everything than the Guard half except NLoS fire, and you should just drop the IG half and play Sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@DukeofStuff

I reviewed your list. I think you may be deficient in anti-armor capability. I figure you're planning on relying on your plasmaguns to kill enemy tanks, but that's actually easier said than done, and even if you don't see any or many at top tables you're going to run into jank at lower tables and some of that may include tanks.

Also, is there a particularly reason you picked to have old grudges and so many relics? You've spend a lot of your CP on pre-game stuff, and may find yourself running out pretty quickly. While you don't have access to a lot of the IG stratagems since you don't have their dependent units, I'm not sure spending that many off the bat is a good idea especially if you're just buying fancy bolt pistols with it.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 16:58:18


Post by: Pyroalchi


I think DOS reply with the flamer Rets was to my question which baseline human options that can take all flamers are legal to include in a guard army. It was not about efficiency, just legality. Hence the mentioning of Retributors that can do that.

But I think I will stick to the DKOK heavy weapons squads and model each heavy flamer as two dudes with a flamer each in a fitting big base.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 19:02:36


Post by: Dukeofstuff


He is correct... I was trying only to answer the question and not to optimize what sounded a theme list.

you are also right in identifying my main worry with that list.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 20:44:55


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Dukeofstuff wrote:
He is correct... I was trying only to answer the question and not to optimize what sounded a theme list.

you are also right in identifying my main worry with that list.


Sorry. I missed that.


Anyway, onto competitive lists.

A tournament list has to be able to both handle what you expect to see on the top tables, and also handle the jank that you will see on the bottom tables while scoring highly against both.

For the top tables, you need to watch out for whatever the space marine meta settles on [probably something with Deathwing and Eradicators and who else knows what], plus Harlequins, Ghaz and the Ladz, and a couple of other lists that are out there, and possibly the Silver Tide. You want to be able to beat and score highly in all of these matchups, so you should be thinking about what secondaries you're going to take, what secondaries you're going to give up, and how you're going to win on primary in all of these matchups. And you should think about doing so while going second.

Winning on Primary involves being able to charge onto a point and then have enough guys left over on the point after the enemy's turn to secure that point. This is hard for Guard. I recommend having charge-catchers ahead of the units holding the objectives that are kind of lame and low value [2 staggered ranks of infantry, basically] plus objective holders who are also lame and low value so the enemy is in the unenviable position of having to use their firepower to clear out the otherwise ignorable charge-catchers to be able to charge your objective holders off a point, and thus sparing your heavy hitters. If they shoot your objective holders off a point, since they couldn't walk past your charge catchers, they don't hold the point either and you can keep pushing them back further away from the points. Either way, taking points for you is going to involve directing a lot of firepower against units you didn't want to, and then holding them is going to involve losing lots of units for little meaningful gain, so expect to take pretty significant attrition.
Keep in mind that IG has best-in-game ability to reach out and touch someone, so leverage that to paste their units holding their natural objectives. If you shoot them off their own objectives, even if you can't take them, you're setting them back on scoring for a turn and they have to peel off units that were placing pressure on your front to go back and hold them, so it's a double win for you. Leverage your artillery, and also f*** Duty Eternal.

Secondaries are also hard for Guard, because you give up Bring it Down, and then you also give up Thin Their Ranks. They have their pick of secondaries for their last one, so they can take the easiest one for them. The candidates here are Engage, Scramble, and Banners, and whichever they choose it is critically vital for your to aggressively deny it.
Against Engage, you're probably not going to keep them entirely off Engage, but do your best to zone them out of at least one of the zones just by body blocking them with Infantry. If you can keep them to 10, you're already doing okay, and if you can make them fail it entirely in one or more turns, you're doing really well. One turn off entirely is equivalent to mitigating it for 2 turns, so you know, keep that in mind if it's an option.
Against Banners, you want to aggressively deny them their banner points. Banners is basically tied to playing the primaries, so primary even harder, but also consider making long dives with throwaway units to decap their rear points. Keep them to 10 or less on banners, and if you can, try to keep them to 5 or less.
Against Scramble, zone your deploy, and do it with trash units that they don't want to be dedicating their long range fire into killing. This way they have more incentive to leave your big guns alone if they want to score points, and if your guns die you can take solace in the fact that it's harder for them to beat you on points now. If you can keep them out by turn 3, then they have to walk to your deploy to scramble, and if they can also just waltz in with a unit and do it then they also probably won the game on primaries and you're done anyway.

Then you get into what you're going to do for your three secondaries:
You want Engage. With lots of cheapy units, you should be able to task throw away units with getting a high score on engage even if you don't win on points, but you want to be pressuring all fronts anyway.
Scramblers is easy for you with throwaway scions doing the close drop ability. On the other hand, since you're almost certainly going to be down on secondaries no matter what, and Banners is tied to winning on Primaries, you could also go in on Banners and primary harder. Don't pick banners on the missions where there's less than 2 natural objectives though.

You want to avoid While We Stand, because you're not going to be able to keep your three most expensive units alive. Odds are your opponent will yield at least one easier kill objective, but won't yield it for max, but I can't think of another easy secondary.




Then we get to the jank lists on the bottom tables. You probably won't see too many tanks at high levels, because Erads exist and kind of make them unviable, but you can definitely expect to see plenty of lists with like one or two or maybe many vehicles at low levels. You need to be able to not only not die to these, you have to beat them soundly. Focus on getting those primary points. Your secondaries are pretty much you based, so continue to do as best you can there.
The key will be to not open yourself up to being in a "well, I guess I die now" situation because you meet that one guy with 2 Repulsors and/or a bunch of Dreadnoughts and nothing you have can kill them. Don't let that happen to you, and to do this you need guns and you need guns that can kill tanks. Fortunately, many guns that kill tanks for you also kill heavy infantry and infantry in general good, because we have so many blast weapons that deal a moderate number of high strength, mid AP, mid damage shots. This is good, but Dreadnoughts will be the bane of your existence. Consider including at least one unit that can definitely without a doubt kill a redemptor dreadnought and not be too concerned about duty eternal.


With regards to your list in specific, I think that you might be able to handle yourself near the top with good piloting. All the people who say that there's no strategy and it's only listbuilding or whatever are wrong, piloting the list well and knowing strategically how you're going to win is way more important. However, list building is very important because it's where you chose what options and answers you're going to have, and I think you're going to have a rough time if you come across that one guy who's like "hahahaha.... Redemptors go BRRRR". You just don't have an answer for them, and don't have enough infantry to keep holding points against it for very long.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 20:58:27


Post by: Dukeofstuff


So either i dip for a manticore duo... Or swappo in some meltas. Or give up my sniperball amndreallocatte points.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 21:52:38


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


Dukeofstuff wrote:
So either i dip for a manticore duo... Or swappo in some meltas. Or give up my sniperball amndreallocatte points.


Honestly, I have no idea. Those were just my thoughts on competitive listbuilding for guard.

I definitely think Manticores might be a good include in any Guard list, but your current entirely list is explicitly Scions, which is pretty short on options.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 22:23:20


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Dukeofstuff wrote:
So either i dip for a manticore duo... Or swappo in some meltas. Or give up my sniperball amndreallocatte points.

As a guy who runs a full payload manticore every game I don't think I can leave home without it. I plan on jumping to two at 1500 in my league. With HK missiles being s10 now to boot they're just too good to not bring.

I will say meltas are very nice, but I use them on my screening infantry. I normally like to keep infantry cheap, but when your choice is 100 men with 10 meltas or 110 men with no melta, the choice is pretty obvious. It's a 5pt upgrade that can do 3-8 damage to a unit at any moment. Even if you don't kill the target, it will often bait a CP reroll on saves of make an opponent pop a Strat, both of which can be worth the 5pt investment easy. You only need to get lucky with one once and they will pay for themselves almost every single time in my experience. I've had several games now where a lone survivor with a melta finished off an enemy character, vehicle, or even just a lone survivor of an elite squad. Makes your opponent kill every single guardsman whether they want to or not, although whether that's good for you or not depends on list.

That said, for outflanking/deepstriking infantry I prefer plasma. My infantry squads as Catachan are always going to be up close and often have the melta rule kicking in. My SWS, CCS and stormtroopers not so much, they're usually at 9", so the plasma will hit at full power compared to the melta. Also plasma will usually be targeted at squads of tougher models, where a melta is usually just fishing for a lucky shot on a key model, so plasma makes sense to concentrate on small groups for best order usage while meltas are just a single weapon in a throwaway squad.

I don't usually see snipers doing much and they are dependent on matchup. They can be good but if I had to pick between manticores, special weapons, and snipers I'd drop the snipers in a heartbeat.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/15 23:55:48


Post by: Dukeofstuff


My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/21 09:36:38


Post by: Krull


Can we still use everything from out PA book?
All stratas and stuff?
Or is there a full reset when 9th came out?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/21 12:08:07


Post by: U02dah4


PA is fine vigilous is not


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/21 13:40:55


Post by: Smotejob


Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.


I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/23 09:30:34


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Smotejob wrote:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.


I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.

How are you running your avenger? I've had a hard time finding a load out I liked for the points


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/23 16:44:59


Post by: Smotejob


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.


I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.

How are you running your avenger? I've had a hard time finding a load out I liked for the points


Two hellstrikes and two lascannon. Leaves it open to be a decent tank hunter as well. All this usually deletes characters reliably if left vulnerable, else it hunts elites or tanks.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/23 20:32:03


Post by: generalchaos34


 Smotejob wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Dukeofstuff wrote:
My "snipers" are a special pistol s4/-1/2 that shoots three times, and a melta gun that shoots once, backed up by malstrom and by castigate. So the little pack of them can drop 2 to 3 mortal wounds on a target, then shoot it 4 times and hit enough times to force it to save on its 4++ invuln, usually. If the melta + a few mortal woudns gets through, boom, my sniper ball worked.
Its not the usual snipers in special weapons, though.

I concede dreads would give me fits now, and I have to change the list up to cope with that, come what may.


I use an avenger strike fighter. I'll fly right next to my opponents characters and light them up. This can be prevented by a good bubble. But if they have to bubble, then they aren't covering as much ground.

How are you running your avenger? I've had a hard time finding a load out I liked for the points


Two hellstrikes and two lascannon. Leaves it open to be a decent tank hunter as well. All this usually deletes characters reliably if left vulnerable, else it hunts elites or tanks.


Whats everyones thoughts on the thunderbolt? That Cadillac of the skies has always been a personal favorite of mine but its also been pricey. but with 4 autocannons, 2 lascannons, and 4 hellstrike missiles I can certainly see it being an anti tank wrecking ball, especially now that its not getting -1 to hit!


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/25 16:41:31


Post by: Dukeofstuff


So, I am kicking around a soup list gaurd/ravengaurd for the upcoming GT. I actually have all the models I need, surprisingly, although would have to build a few stormtroopers (not a problem) and the 6 bladegaurd.

It tries to use the 3 fields approach and is, I confess, a bit bland in that I usually run a lot of psykers and they are absent here.

I don't make soup lists often of late. Any feedback is welcome, here, or in pm.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/26 15:27:25


Post by: MrMoustaffa


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/26/inside-imperial-armour-compendium/

Krieg players, I'm so sorry. You might have the absolute worst trait in the game, and that's coming from a guy who plays Metallica Admech. Not to mention many units going legends, including the gorgon for some reason. If you don't understand what I'm talking about read the whole article, all the way down to the little note at the bottom.

The krieg trait let's you ignore LD modifiers, but you lose your morale immunity, and the 4+ to shoot/swing one time is a joke. You get a single (1) melee attack with a character/vehicle, or shoot with a single weapon on your worst bracket. I mean yeah, it'll come up occasionally, but it's pretty awful compared to even mediocre traits like Valhallans

Also, I checked Greater Good. The Relentless strat that lets you use your top damage table can't even be realistically used with the krieg trait. It can only be used at the start of YOUR turn, and stops being used when your turn ends. The only time it can ever work with the krieg trait is if you have something like a Leman Russ Executioner kill itself while overcharging in your shooting phase, where it might, if it doesn't explode and passes the 4+ roll, get to shoot another d6 shots with it's turret weapon.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/26 15:36:42


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Yea that trait is brutal. No love for IG, even from forge world.

Honestly the more games of 9th I play, the more I'm struggling to see what competitive edge guard have. I dont want to be all boo hoo pity party, and would love someone to show me wrong, but as far as I have been experiencing...
Our damage output is not bad, but not incredible either.
Our survivability is straight awful, and its not like our units are incredible point efficient to make up for it.
I love my tanks, but ANY form of dedicated anti tank cuts through Leman Russes like a hot knife through butter. Our best melee unit, bullgryn, pail in comparison to any decent CC unit other races have. Our bad accuracy makes even our best guns struggle to perform. We have some decent stratagems, but once again not when compared to other races.

I love my guard but am having trouble placing them as competitive at all.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/26 18:30:04


Post by: Grimskul


Yeah, that it is absolutely a gut punch for anyone looking for a meaningful update for the ol Death Korps. I feel for the DKoK players who have been faithfully drumming on as the marginalized lesser ruleset for so long, and now when they have a chance to address that disparity they basically spit in your face. Keeping the old Cult of Sacrifice would have been better to be honest, at least in terms of the morale trait. They could have made it so you were at full wounds bracket for when they shoot/die on the 4+.

What a waste.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/26 18:39:17


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Yea that trait is brutal. No love for IG, even from forge world.

Honestly the more games of 9th I play, the more I'm struggling to see what competitive edge guard have. I dont want to be all boo hoo pity party, and would love someone to show me wrong, but as far as I have been experiencing...
Our damage output is not bad, but not incredible either.
Our survivability is straight awful, and its not like our units are incredible point efficient to make up for it.
I love my tanks, but ANY form of dedicated anti tank cuts through Leman Russes like a hot knife through butter. Our best melee unit, bullgryn, pail in comparison to any decent CC unit other races have. Our bad accuracy makes even our best guns struggle to perform. We have some decent stratagems, but once again not when compared to other races.

I love my guard but am having trouble placing them as competitive at all.


That's because there isn't a competitive edge for Guard.

This edition is all about melee in the middle, and also hates light infantry and heavy vehicles.

Also, the mission pack is designed explicitly to hate you, with two simultaneously choose-able secondary objectives that most normal IG lists can't help but either full-yield or at least give up a lot of points for, while there are exactly 0 such objectives that a normal Space Marine list will do the same for.



That said, I don't think it's impossible, just the odds are stacked against you. I said my piece a few pages ago about what I think needs to be considered and planned around when drafting your list.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/27 04:17:55


Post by: Tomsug


Relax dudes, we haven' t seen the whole package. These warhammer community Leaks are usually totaly misleading. I remeber very well such leaks about ork codex and ork PA book. Bunch of leaks, tons of emotions and than puff! There are some strategems or whatever makeing total different context....

But maybe.... it ' s just a hope speaking out of me....


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/27 06:07:20


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 Tomsug wrote:
Relax dudes, we haven' t seen the whole package. These warhammer community Leaks are usually totaly misleading. I remeber very well such leaks about ork codex and ork PA book. Bunch of leaks, tons of emotions and than puff! There are some strategems or whatever makeing total different context....

But maybe.... it ' s just a hope speaking out of me....


What I said wasn't about DKoK. Just about playing Guard in general. It's an uphill battle, I have no way to make it nicer. Basically everything about this edition hates "conventional" guard lists of inexpensive light shooting infantry backed by inexpensive heavy long-ranged vehicles. With games largely decided by the ability to take and hold center-field objectives using CQC power, and having two secondaries that simultaneously score massively against us you're going to really have to tool your list carefully to know how you're going to score every point and prevent every point before you start. And that's before getting into the existence of Eradicators and Marines in general, which have highly available and super-common tools that just kind of hard counter the things in "conventional" guard lists. Even "unconventional" guard lists like massed Bullgryn or Catachan Meleeball aren't that strong relative to what other factions that are actually good at that are putting on the table.

Unless you think the FW book is going to change things, in which case, there's hope, but I don't expect anything to change. Nothing in that IG list is a unit that isn't in the general IG paradigm of light shooting infantry and heavy tanks, and most of it is random stuff that goes in a super heavy detachment and thus has basically a minimum of chances to see the field short of being meta-skewingly broken [which is also unlikely].


That said, there's hope. Plan carefully about how you're going to win, build your list carefully, and keep the meta in mind.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/27 12:21:32


Post by: gungo


The dkok regimental trait really shouldn’t have a 4+ roll...
It’s horribly restrictive as it is anyway.
First only limited to characters and vehicles.
Dkok don’t have any meaningful characters that would benefit from a single weapon hit on death.
Vehicles first off fire at lowest profile which is usually a 6+
Then if in combat can’t use blast
Then it doesn’t even work if they explode.
And only a single shot from 1 weapon.

It basically is just a waste of time rolling dice. If it was a single hit it still would be bs6 non blast in most cases.

I get the cult of sacrifice morale Change sucks but guard wasn’t having morale issues this addition regardless.

I think krieg will be fine and likely competitive. They still have engineers and deathriders exclusively which are both decent units... it’s all about points and rules right now.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/27 14:03:24


Post by: Pyroalchi


One of the very, very few characters that might occassionally make something out of it might be the Death rider commander.

If he is in CC and dies the turn he charged he could at least get of one last hunting lance attack. If he is not in CC and has not yet used his demolition charge (if it is still with us), he might have a small chance of using it before dying. But as gungo said: that's a pretty niche example for a trait that is mostly just some pointless rolling.

And on vehicles it might at least be usable with flamer stuff like the Malcador infernus or the Cyclops, but that too is a very small and unlikely advantage.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/27 19:35:26


Post by: gungo


 Pyroalchi wrote:
One of the very, very few characters that might occassionally make something out of it might be the Death rider commander.

If he is in CC and dies the turn he charged he could at least get of one last hunting lance attack. If he is not in CC and has not yet used his demolition charge (if it is still with us), he might have a small chance of using it before dying. But as gungo said: that's a pretty niche example for a trait that is mostly just some pointless rolling.

And on vehicles it might at least be usable with flamer stuff like the Malcador infernus or the Cyclops, but that too is a very small and unlikely advantage.


with the changes to flamer ranges this does make hull mounted flamers better though...
But honestly this rule should have been a single hit roll per model that was destroyed. Then it would have been decent. Granting additional hits on death is very krieg like...


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/28 02:38:37


Post by: Dukeofstuff


So over last weekend, I actually converted up an entire (if small) army of stormtrooper grenadiers with nice plasma guns and hotshotlasguns and a few officers, in the hopes of fielding a patroll with a squadron of conquerer battle cannon leman russes I already built.

Seriously what the hell.

Oh well, at least my ... THOSE TOO?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/28 11:44:24


Post by: Esmer


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/26/inside-imperial-armour-compendium/

Krieg players, I'm so sorry. You might have the absolute worst trait in the game, and that's coming from a guy who plays Metallica Admech. Not to mention many units going legends, including the gorgon for some reason. If you don't understand what I'm talking about read the whole article, all the way down to the little note at the bottom.

The krieg trait let's you ignore LD modifiers, but you lose your morale immunity, and the 4+ to shoot/swing one time is a joke. You get a single (1) melee attack with a character/vehicle, or shoot with a single weapon on your worst bracket. I mean yeah, it'll come up occasionally, but it's pretty awful compared to even mediocre traits like Valhallans

Also, I checked Greater Good. The Relentless strat that lets you use your top damage table can't even be realistically used with the krieg trait. It can only be used at the start of YOUR turn, and stops being used when your turn ends. The only time it can ever work with the krieg trait is if you have something like a Leman Russ Executioner kill itself while overcharging in your shooting phase, where it might, if it doesn't explode and passes the 4+ roll, get to shoot another d6 shots with it's turret weapon.


The most use I see for the Krieg trait is a Hellhound who has as 50% chance of not exploding and then another 50% chance of passing the 4+ (so basically, you'll want a 1-3, immediately followed by a 4-6) and then firing his 2D6 auto-hit Inferno Cannon one last time.

On another note, after having a succesful game against Space Wolves yesterday, I decided to switch out my traditional artillery park (2 Basiliks, 1 Manticore) for 2 Manticores with Full Payload and a MoO nearby. The SW player was complaining about both Manticores having the same Tank Ace ability though. I got it for the first by sacrificing my Warlord Trait and for the second by spending the 1 CP pre-Battle stratagem, so didn't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible?


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/28 11:45:38


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Esmer wrote:
On another note, after having a succesful game against Space Wolves yesterday, I decided to switch out my traditional artillery park (2 Basiliks, 1 Manticore) for 2 Manticores with Full Payload and a MoO nearby. The SW player was complaining about both Manticores having the same Tank Ace ability though. I got it for the first by sacrificing my Warlord Trait and for the second by spending the 1 CP pre-Battle stratagem, so didn't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible?
Unlike Warlord Traits, you can take multiple of the same Tank Ace. You simply can't give one tank two tank aces, but you can give two tanks the same one tank ace just fine.


Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics @ 2020/10/28 11:48:53


Post by: tau tse tung


I don't understand why everybody is moaning here. I reminds me of the days of 7th or 5th.

Guard with a sisters or GSC detachment have been working fine for me. Using the ambush rule to tie up heavy close combat units with say a rockgrinder has done well for me so far. The dagger of a sisters squad in a multimelta immulator has done well by me. I don't see the issue?