Im not really that strong on the lore so riddle me this.

Lorewise, the strongest ork we have access to and know about, is our man Ghazzy. Ghazghkull, the mighty ork warboss, THE prophet of Gork and Mork, however, basically gets krumped and has his head cut off by some random human space marine officer from the Space Wolves.

How come, the best the Orks has to offer, has his head cut off by a random little ascended primaris? Why cant he at least die while putting up a fight to a Primarch? Is that really all the orks are good for? just losing to some tiny turd. At least bring out a Primarch or something to Krump Ghazzy.

You'd think the best the orks has to offer, would be putting up a good fight to a primarch yet he just fights some random dude who got lucky one day and was allowed to be important.

What what?

He's dead? Like -dead-dead-?

I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

what bothers me is that Ragnar didnt just get gipped by Ghazzy. There are so many humans who are super strong, Ghaz should legally be allowed to fight, and eventually just beat him. That they play it off like they're equals is just a turd on the Orks front lawn lorewise.

Ghazzy is the strongest the orks has to offer, and Ragnar isnt the strongest the humans have to offer.


If the strongest ork, Ghaz, loses to some twerp like Ragnar (or even has a draw), the entire lore behind orks is just not really that threatening. Orks are losers and weaklings that cant even best the humans non-leaders.

They could at least have Ghaz fight a primarch and lose or something id be fine with that, but Ragnar? No thank you.

Hes not even important, and i base that on the fact that I had to google who he was. Important people dont need to be googled.

You dont need to google horus or the emprah or Leman Russ.

But you have to google Ragnar.

Surely one of those ancient feral primal orks that's rumoured to be all extinct and yet vastly more powerful than the typical modern ork - surely that's the kind of ork that goes toe to toe with a Primarch.

 Overread wrote:
Surely one of those ancient feral primal orks that's rumoured to be all extinct and yet vastly more powerful than the typical modern ork - surely that's the kind of ork that goes toe to toe with a Primarch.

Is Ragnar even the one who leads the Space Wolves as whole?

If hes not, that just makes him even more insignificant and thats an even bigger turd flung at the orks. a non leader krumps the leader of the orks.


What a sad spectacle to behold.

Why dont we just have a random Eldar Ranger murder Abbadon at range with a headshot now that we're at it

yeah, like the Beast, who Ghaz is most certainly not.

If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

This Ragnar guy has a completely unreasonable number of attacks on his profile, but you gotta bear in mind Ghazkhul’s real rival is an elderly human sigh a heretek power klaw. It’s not his fault the setting has had really much wonky power escalation in recent years.

 Sim-Life wrote:
If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Beardedragon wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

what bothers me is that Ragnar didnt just get gipped by Ghazzy. There are so many humans who are super strong, Ghaz should legally be allowed to fight, and eventually just beat him. That they play it off like they're equals is just a turd on the Orks front lawn lorewise.

Ghazzy is the strongest the orks has to offer, and Ragnar isnt the strongest the humans have to offer.


If the strongest ork, Ghaz, loses to some twerp like Ragnar (or even has a draw), the entire lore behind orks is just not really that threatening. Orks are losers and weaklings that cant even best the humans non-leaders.

They could at least have Ghaz fight a primarch and lose or something id be fine with that, but Ragnar? No thank you.

Hes not even important, and i base that on the fact that I had to google who he was. Important people dont need to be googled.

You dont need to google horus or the emprah or Leman Russ.

But you have to google Ragnar.

Try googling how many novels Ragnar has had centred around him. Ghaz? Mmm, I can think of one where they for 2 pages had his POV. And i'm saying this as someone who has orks as his main faction. We're probably lucky Ragnar was even wounded with how thick his plot armor is.

The real question is, how’s old man Yarrick going to fare in a fight against Ghaz?
And what kind of combat monster will he be when he gets a plastic kit?

 Denegaar wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Yeah but the danger orks present is their numbers, rate of reproduction and hardiness. If every ork was on the same tier as a space marine they would have dominated the galaxy ages ago.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
If the average ork was on the same level as a space marine the galaxy would be in a LOT of trouble. They're tougher and stronger than an average guardsman sure but they're not super-human level so it stands to reason that the toughest ork IS at super-human level, even if its only base super-human.

Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Yeah but the danger orks present is their numbers, rate of reproduction and hardiness. If every ork was on the same tier as a space marine they would have dominated the galaxy ages ago.

That's true, but we are not talking about an average Ork, Ghazghkull it's the strongest of Warlords, and Warlords are the strongest of Warbosses.

A sole Warboss is as strong, big and has such martial prowess as an armored Adeptus Astartes, that's why Space Marines have respect for their skills in combat, let alone the fething Ghazghkull. He is a legend.

A Primaris officer like Ragnar is not much stronger than a regular Primaris, he can be fiercer and more skilled in battle, but I think that the only explanation that we can give to the fact that he can beat Ghazghkull is because the plot (or the sales) need it.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of hearing about the Swarmlord or Ghaz getting punked by some Space Marine Captain or Chapter Master, I've had Ghazzy fight Knights and win handily on the Tabletop, I've had the Swarmlord cut through one like swiss cheese, (note, this is not an uncommon occurrence, my friends who use them go out of their way to avoid melee with Swarmie.

Then in the fluff seemingly everyone pushes the Swarmlord's gak in. Now Ghaz gets decapitated by some Space Wolf captain. Are Xenos not allowed to beat Space Marines or something. I recall Ghazzy smashing Belial and a large number of the Deathwing in a battle during the third war of Armageddon. Now he didn't kill Belial but he did cut a bloody path through the Deathwing. Now he kills a couple Wolf Guard then gets his head cut off. Rage.

I know that Lore does not equal gameplay but statwise, Ghaz should handily defeat Gulliman. Why does the lore not reflect this?

Can we stop pretending that Ragnar is just "some random human"?

didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

Not sure if he could kill Guilliman, The Beast was stronger than Ghaz and got killed by Vulkan IIRC.

But yeah that's true, Ghaz vs Ragnar was basically a draw, and Ragnar wasn't even Primaris yet. It makes no sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can we stop pretending that Ragnar is just "some random human"?

agreed, it honestly makes the Ork players who say it just look sadly ignorant.

 Denegaar wrote:
Not sure if he could kill Guilliman, The Beast was stronger than Ghaz and got killed by Vulkan IIRC.

But yeah that's true, Ghaz vs Ragnar was basically a draw, and Ragnar wasn't even Primaris yet. It makes no sense.

It did take a DBZ style sacrifice play for Vulkan to do it though. I think it even mentioned that he felt he couldn't win in a straight up fight. Then they found out there was half a dozen more Primorks wandering about.

Ghaz in his current state is a better fighter than Bobby G for sure, but that's not where Gulliman's strength lies. He's the bureaucrat of primarchs. Now Angron, he's probably beat Ghaz in lore and on the tabletop.

panzerfront14 wrote:
Honestly, I'm getting sick of hearing about the Swarmlord or Ghaz getting punked by some Space Marine Captain or Chapter Master, I've had Ghazzy fight Knights and win handily on the Tabletop, I've had the Swarmlord cut through one like swiss cheese, (note, this is not an uncommon occurrence, my friends who use them go out of their way to avoid melee with Swarmie.

Then in the fluff seemingly everyone pushes the Swarmlord's gak in. Now Ghaz gets decapitated by some Space Wolf captain. Are Xenos not allowed to beat Space Marines or something. I recall Ghazzy smashing Belial and a large number of the Deathwing in a battle during the third war of Armageddon. Now he didn't kill Belial but he did cut a bloody path through the Deathwing. Now he kills a couple Wolf Guard then gets his head cut off. Rage.

I know that Lore does not equal gameplay but statwise, Ghaz should handily defeat Gulliman. Why does the lore not reflect this?

Because Ghaz isn't the equal of Primarch. He was kicked off as a joke character for a sample army list. A random roll on a bioniks table saddled him with a head injury that made him delusional, if powerful.
Lorewise he evolved into a decently powerful named warboss, but he still mostly plays Keystone Kops with an aging commissar.

 Denegaar wrote:
Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Tone =\= internal consistency.

If each individual ork was even close to being a match 1:1 with a astartes the Imperium would never win a single battle against them.

That the average boy is basically cannon fodder but there are an endless supply of them is the balancing act that allows the setting to be a bloody stalemate stretching across millenia.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Tone =\= internal consistency.

If each individual ork was even close to being a match 1:1 with a astartes the Imperium would never win a single battle against them.

That the average boy is basically cannon fodder but there are an endless supply of them is the balancing act that allows the setting to be a bloody stalemate stretching across millenia.

I understand and I agree, but a Warboss is not a Boy, they are as big and strong as an Adeptus Astartes fully clad in armor, and Ghazghkull is the strongest of them all... and it basically wears, in addition, a Mek mega armour.

It makes no sense, they wanted to heroically reborn Ragnar as a Primaris miniature to sell the box and that's why they came with such an unbelievable story.

Voss wrote:

panzerfront14 wrote:
Honestly, I'm getting sick of hearing about the Swarmlord or Ghaz getting punked by some Space Marine Captain or Chapter Master, I've had Ghazzy fight Knights and win handily on the Tabletop, I've had the Swarmlord cut through one like swiss cheese, (note, this is not an uncommon occurrence, my friends who use them go out of their way to avoid melee with Swarmie.

Then in the fluff seemingly everyone pushes the Swarmlord's gak in. Now Ghaz gets decapitated by some Space Wolf captain. Are Xenos not allowed to beat Space Marines or something. I recall Ghazzy smashing Belial and a large number of the Deathwing in a battle during the third war of Armageddon. Now he didn't kill Belial but he did cut a bloody path through the Deathwing. Now he kills a couple Wolf Guard then gets his head cut off. Rage.

I know that Lore does not equal gameplay but statwise, Ghaz should handily defeat Gulliman. Why does the lore not reflect this?

Because Ghaz isn't the equal of Primarch. He was kicked off as a joke character for a sample army list. A random roll on a bioniks table saddled him with a head injury that made him delusional, if powerful.
Lorewise he evolved into a decently powerful named warboss, but he still mostly plays Keystone Kops with an aging commissar.

Yup that's exactly how Ghaz came to be, to show you how much fun it was to create an ork character back in the day.

 Denegaar wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
Well the whole idea of Warhammer 40000 is that the galaxy IS in a lot of trouble. The fact that now we have Primaris that seem to faceroll whatever they touch is pretty new and artificial. Humanity is fethed up in every place in the Galaxy by Chaos and Xenos... we should remember that.

Tone =\= internal consistency.

If each individual ork was even close to being a match 1:1 with a astartes the Imperium would never win a single battle against them.

That the average boy is basically cannon fodder but there are an endless supply of them is the balancing act that allows the setting to be a bloody stalemate stretching across millenia.

I understand and I agree, but a Warboss is not a Boy, they are as big and strong as an Adeptus Astartes fully clad in armor, and Ghazghkull is the strongest of them all... and it basically wears, in addition, a Mek mega armour.

It makes no sense, they wanted to heroically reborn Ragnar as a Primaris miniature to sell the box and that's why they came with such an unbelievable story.

So if you acknowledge that Ghaz is on par with a space marine then what's the issue with Ragnar, a particularly fierce and skilled space marine, being able to 1v1 him?

The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Beardedragon wrote:
Lorewise, the strongest ork we have access to and know about, is our man Ghazzy. Ghazghkull, the mighty ork warboss, THE prophet of Gork and Mork, however, basically gets krumped and has his head cut off by some random human space marine officer from the Space Wolves.

He got krumped by some random Mawloc as well (Octarian War), so Ragnar is a big step up for the guy.

Showing your age though - or mine, feelsbadman :( There was a time when you couldn't read an article about space marines without tripping over Ragnar. He was in every space wolf battle report, white dwarf had stories (and at least one cover) featuring him, novels centred around him, any time there was a 'chapters of the astartes' model photo Ragnar was in it. Guy was probably in more stuff than any other marine character.

Yeeeeah, Ragnar is just about the most ferocious fighter the Space Wolves have. He may not be the Chapter Master but that's only thanks to his younger age - smart money is on him being likely to take over if/when Logan Grimnar, the current Great Wolf, kicks the bucket.

Also important to realise is that Ghazzy is not at Beast levels, not yet. It's perfectly reasonable that there are non-Primarch Space Marines that could go toe-to-toe with him - but they're going to be very few and far between, your average brother wouldn't stand a chance. On the other hand, the notion that Guilliman isn't a match for him is patently false.

This is all as things stand right now, mind. Orks have a habit of getting bigger and meaner the more they fight, and Ghaz clearly got a bit of a boost from that fight and the resulting surgery...

Orks are just dumb little greenies. Why would some bigger dumb guy be able to smash Ragnar, THE PRIDE of the SPACE WOLVES.

Check your privilege you filthy xenos scum. The box was named Prophecy of the WoLf, not Prophecy of the BEAST.

The whole setup for that PA is just unbelievably stupid. A great example of the worst GW writing has to offer.

"Let's have them kill each other then both get resurrected!"

"That sounds terrible...oh, who am I kidding, who even cares? Full speed ahead."

They needed a fluff excuse for them both to get new models. It was this or some other mcguffin that still winds them up in a stalemate, because neither can die.

I'm not an ork player, but I was also a little bit disbelieving that Ghaz lost to Ragnar. If there were some special circumstances I could buy it, but they way they just kind hand waved it was very disappointing.

Ork players should take note that for the rematch Ragnar admitted he'd not be able to beat Ghaz and thus opted to try dropping a space station on him

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They needed a fluff excuse for them both to get new models. It was this or some other mcguffin that still winds them up in a stalemate, because neither can die.

Why? We do we need an excuse for new models? New models are awesome. I don't see why we need lore reasons to support the toys.

Regardless, you cannot tell me "have them kill each other then both get resurrected! wave hands fast enough and it'll be cool!" was really the best they could come up with.

Again though, I know that a sufficiently skilled human can make up some of the difference to a marine or assassins wouldn’t be a thing, but the point still stands that historically Ghazkhul’s main rival has been a largely unaugmented elderly commissar.

changemod wrote:
Again though, I know that a sufficiently skilled human can make up some of the difference to a marine or assassins wouldn’t be a thing, but the point still stands that historically Ghazkhul’s main rival has been a largely unaugmented elderly commissar.

Though i'm curious now. Did they ever fight face to face? The closest I can remember is Yarrik being run over by a battlefortress (Probably a baneblade chassis) then being captured and tortured for a bit.

Whaaat? People so underrating Ragnar here. He's one of the greatest, most savage fighters the Imperium has to offer. Someone said but he's not even the leader of the Space Wolves. No but he'd kick Logan's ass in combat. I have no problem that he's more than capable of taking out Ghazzy too.

changemod wrote:
Again though, I know that a sufficiently skilled human can make up some of the difference to a marine or assassins wouldn’t be a thing, but the point still stands that historically Ghazkhul’s main rival has been a largely unaugmented elderly commissar.

Why do people keep bringing this up? They're rivals as leaders of opposing factions, not in fisticuffs. As far as I'm aware they've never even fought each other one-on-one in the lore.

 argonak wrote:
I'm not an ork player, but I was also a little bit disbelieving that Ghaz lost to Ragnar. If there were some special circumstances I could buy it, but they way they just kind hand waved it was very disappointing.

This is where I am at. Yeah, I know it is Ragnar not just any Space Marine, but Ghaz is -the- big bad Orks have to offer. It would be like Abaddon getting killed by Jain Zar. I think what would have made a much better fight would be Ghaz charging into Ragnar's honor guard, slaughtering them but taking some damage, then getting the two-way kill with Ragnar. Meanwhile no Orks intervene because Ghaz said he'd krump em if they did. This way GW gets the double-kill they need for the new models and Ghaz gets to be a badass but also taken down by a classic Ork weakness (lack of tactics).

Heck, maybe they will ret-con it to that one day. I can hope.


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 catbarf wrote:

changemod wrote:
Again though, I know that a sufficiently skilled human can make up some of the difference to a marine or assassins wouldn’t be a thing, but the point still stands that historically Ghazkhul’s main rival has been a largely unaugmented elderly commissar.

Why do people keep bringing this up? They're rivals as leaders of opposing factions, not in fisticuffs. As far as I'm aware they've never even fought each other one-on-one in the lore.

I think people miss that the rivalry is as -commanders- not a personal, physical rivalry. Which TBF can be easy to miss if one has not read into the fluff; just looking at the model one might assume Yarik's power klaw is about making himself better in melee, for example.

I don't really doubt Ragnar Blackmane being a viable candidate to face Ghazskull, that said, I'm honestly really disappointed that they went Ghaz vs. Ragnar instead of Ghaz vs. Yarrick or Ghaz vs. Helbrecht.

Yarrick is Ghazskull's true archnemesis. Ragnar is important to the collective Imperium, but in the narrative of Ghazskull and the Orks, it feels like Yarrick or Hellbrecht, people who actually have in some way been seeking/heading for a confrontation with Ghazskull, should have been Ghazskull's box opponent.

Koorland killed one of the Prime-Orks that were collectively known as 'the Beast' so having one killed by a bog-standard space marine in combat isn't unprecedented anyway.

Especially since while Ghaz is considered the Beast's second coming, he's supposedly still en route to becoming something comprable to even the weakest of those hab block sized super-greenies.

 argonak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They needed a fluff excuse for them both to get new models. It was this or some other mcguffin that still winds them up in a stalemate, because neither can die.

Why? We do we need an excuse for new models? New models are awesome. I don't see why we need lore reasons to support the toys.

We don't, but GW feels like they have some purpose with driving a story line bit by bit, so, here we are.

There are several Avatars of Khaine just sitting on the sideline of this conversation, annoyingly tapping their foot as they glare at marines with folded arms.

This is 40K. Ghaz got lucky he didn't behead himself with his own chainsaw by tripping over a grot.

"In this age of darkness, you are one of billions - and should you die, you will not be missed."

Is Ghaz actually dead?

Look GW decided that IOM, or more specifically Space marines are for all intents and purposes Goku.

Could 40k exist without the IOM?
Does IOM needs to be Goku if it is to continue existing..?

The trouble is that Its just one kaioken x100 after another kaioken x100 for Goku isint it.. I love goku but man does that get a bit stale after a while lol.

Take the latest pariah lore from PA:

Yeah, as everyone said already, Ragnar isn't any rando SM Captain, so he's definitely in the upper tiers of Imperium characters that can give a proper fight. I personally dislike the mutual KO, but given how GW basically wrote themselves into a corner by having an excuse for Ragnar to become a Primaris but also not wanting him to look like a chump, they wrote what we got. I was initially pretty unhappy but at this point Ghazzy even staying alive at all is better than what xenos usually get when they get involved with marines. At least Orks didn't get shafted as hard narratively as Eldar did in Blood of the Phoenix.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Is Ghaz actually dead?

No

Yeah, yeah, your warboss is super important, and the Space Wolves greatest non-dread hero is a random human..... I agree it was poorly written. However it doesn't matter how well it was written, people would still be bitching. My hero lost to your hero, waaaaa. Well tied, since neither died. Because in 40k no named character can die these days (In past times Tycho and maybe a few others did actually die). Eldrad is still around despite his death.

Every faction save maybe the Guard says it is the most powerful faction. It's heroes, strategies, wargear, or whatever trump other factions crap. Its sneaky boyz are the sneakiest or whatever. Almost all of it written poorly.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Is Ghaz actually dead?

no he just lost his head and had ity stitched back on. honestly the material left me with the distinct impression this was all a "just as planned" moment by Gork and Mork designed to give Ghaz a moment of Apotheosis.

The part of the story where a bunch of nobs found some grot dragging Ghaz's head away and they took it to Grotsnik only to be chopped apart to make the new body for Ghaz was pretty damn fun though.

Hey, at least they sent a marine captain after your guy. Jain Zar, basically a demigod of the Phoenix King, has been forced to flee the field by a random commissar. They were kind enough to send Calgar himself to punch our war god into pieces though.

I do kind of agree with the OP here. Ragnar is a big deal; definitely not some nameless human schmuck. But if we pretend that orks have the same gravitas as other factions and that Ghaz is the scariest ork you can face, getting KO'd by Ragnar is a bit insulting. The fact that they basically krumped each other means that they can be considered to be roughly the same level of threat. Which means anyone that can handily deal with Ragnar can handily deal with Ghaz too.

Now, that's not a very long list. Ragnar both mechanically and narratively at least as big a deal as most non-primary heretics, phoenix lords, commanders, etc. But like, Magnus could probably magic Ragnar to death in a couple seconds, right? And Ragnar probably can't win a fight against any of the other daemon primarchs. He definitely can't win against Guilliman.

So this story kind of indicates that orks on the whole can't currently concentrate more ninjutsu into a single guy than they have with Ghaz meaning there's no one model more lethal in all of orkdom except maybe for some kind of superheavy war machine.

Then again, the whole point of this story was to give an excuse for both Ghaz and Ragnar to get their facelift/powerup. So you could make the argument that he *wasn't* primarch-tier before but maybe possibly is now?

*shrug* If orks can't field a character more powerful than a named marine captain/chapter master, then they're basically in the same boat as the rest of us xenos.

Uh, Ghazghkull won that fight with Ragnar. What is this thread about?

Sure Ghazghkull got decapitated, but that's happened before, and he doesn't really need a head anyway.

That's a fair point. Ragnar was fighting against old model Ghaz technically, that old block of metal. He certainly is a bit more killy and a lot more tough than before. Indeed in a rematch it likely wouldn't go the same That klaw is bigger than Ragnar for goodness sakes.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Now, that's not a very long list. Ragnar both mechanically and narratively at least as big a deal as most non-primary heretics, phoenix lords, commanders, etc. But like, Magnus could probably magic Ragnar to death in a couple seconds, right? And Ragnar probably can't win a fight against any of the other daemon primarchs. He definitely can't win against Guilliman.

Someone may need to correct me here, but didn't Ragnar defeat Magnus - though not necessarily kill him - in one of the novels?

I have to say, I wouldn't mind a sparring scene between Guilliman and Blackmane, pre-Primarising, probably from Roboute's perspective - could make for an interesting assessment.

In a setting that is increasingly about its Biggest and Baddest characters, I think it's reasonable for ork players to be a bit stung by their B&BC getting laid low by someone who is at the end of the day one of many, many tier two space marines. You'd never see Guilliman get outsmarted by Imotekh, and that would be less egregious because Imotekh was the biggest Necron character before the Silent King returned.

BrianDavion wrote:
Ork players should take note that for the rematch Ragnar admitted he'd not be able to beat Ghaz and thus opted to try dropping a space station on him

Yes, and he failed doing that because Thrakka saw it coming and was waiting for him. Ragnar clearly didn't feel like he was able to defeat Ghaz second time, especially not after Grotznik's newest improvement and withdrew (ran away! ).

I haven't read the novel (I'm not even sure which one has the duel), but in the Prophecy of the Wolf booklet, the whole fluff starts with Thrakka having fallen down multiple levels of the hive and somehow having lost his head(it doesn't even explicitly say that it was cut off), while Ragnar has been slashed in half by wounds that seem to match Thrakka's old klaw, surrounded by the corpses of his entire squad.

Maybe someone who has read the novel could shed some light on how Ragnar actually managed to behead Thrakka, or if he did it at all.

Some people complain about Ultramarines while ignoring Space Wolves have much more offensive fluff.

BrianDavion wrote:
didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

how would i know if we did? i started 3 months ago with warhammer tabletop

At least Space Wolf fluff reads like an over-the-top metal music video, while Ultramarine fluff is closer to an episode of MLP.


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Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

how would i know if we did? i started 3 months ago with warhammer tabletop

Step 1: Google Ragnar Blackmane
Step 2: Spend the rest of the day reading https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane

Styles make fights....that and GW's reluctance to trim/change their cast of characters means that their showdowns end up a bit samey and predictable....."dude who can resurrect will inevitably lose to dude who can't".

Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

Blackmane is *the* Space Wolf, even if he's not the head of the faction. And I'll be perfectly honest, Ghazzy is the *current* Biggest Baddest Ork, but he's not been the historically Biggest Baddest Ork for a while. That role was taken by the Beast and the Prime-orks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

To be fair, I had no idea who Ragnar was before Prophecy of the Wolf and that is despite being semi-interested in Space Wolves in the past. I did read up on him because I wanted to know who managed to beat Thrakka though.

Blackmane is *the* Space Wolf, even if he's not the head of the faction. And I'll be perfectly honest, Ghazzy is the *current* Biggest Baddest Ork, but he's not been the historically Biggest Baddest Ork for a while. That role was taken by the Beast and the Prime-orks.

Come on man, that's a false analogy. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thrakka is as much *the* ork as Ragnar is *the* Space Wolf. If your argument is that Ghaz is not a primork and therefore not important - then Ragnar is not important either because he is not a Russ and therefore just the "current" biggest and baddest Wolf.

The War of Armageddon he started itself has spawned numerous stories, novels, units and characters that are now central to the game's lore like Mad Dok Grotznik, Snikrot and Kommandoz, Nazdreg, Grimaldus or Yarrik. Big shots like Dante and Helbrecht clashed with him as commanders with one common theme - when orks are lead by a tactical genius on a level of a Space Marine chapter master but with nearly no limitation in regard to resources, the imperium is fethed. Luckily there is just one Thrakka.
Most ork fluff revolves around Thrakka, just like most of the Space Wolf fluff has Ragnar in it.

That's why I liked the how the Prophecy of the Wolf story ended - Thrakka heard the news of the space wolves' battles right after waking up, tried to make sense of the attack targets, concluded what Ragnar was planning and intercepted him before could follow through with his plan.
The one thing that didn't work well is the weirdly written duel where they mutually kill each other but then get better.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

To be fair, I had no idea who Ragnar was before Prophecy of the Wolf and that is despite being semi-interested in Space Wolves in the past. I did read up on him because I wanted to know who managed to beat Thrakka though.

Honestly Jidmah, if you're intreasted in the Space Wolves at all you REALLY should read the Ragnar Blackmane novels, or at least the first one Space Wolf, it's such a great look at the space wolves recruitment and trials process that if you have ANY intreast in the chapter it's worth the read.

but yeah Ragnar has featured in 6 novels, and 1 novella that's a lot of ink, his great company is also the "default" great company, so in many ways he's more reknowned then Logan. problem is because his mini was so old he'd sort of been almost benched by GW (the Krom dragoneye mini really should have just been a plastic ragnar) now that he's got a new mini I expect to see him given more attention again.

I dislike this because Ghazzy was the only real threat the Orks had. Who will lead them now? well there is.....hmm... yeah..

Prime Orks - Were put in so the Orks could even remotely threaten a Primarch lead imperium. I don't think one has ever existed in 40k and frankly Primarch Orks is just silly.

Because everything that is not SM lore is a joke.
I mean look at Illic and Jain Zar stories.
The first is not a hero even in his book and the second one got killed by random nade.
I have really low expectation from writers like Gav Thorpe.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

To be fair, I had no idea who Ragnar was before Prophecy of the Wolf and that is despite being semi-interested in Space Wolves in the past. I did read up on him because I wanted to know who managed to beat Thrakka though.

Honestly Jidmah, if you're intreasted in the Space Wolves at all you REALLY should read the Ragnar Blackmane novels, or at least the first one Space Wolf, it's such a great look at the space wolves recruitment and trials process that if you have ANY intreast in the chapter it's worth the read.

but yeah Ragnar has featured in 6 novels, and 1 novella that's a lot of ink, his great company is also the "default" great company, so in many ways he's more reknowned then Logan. problem is because his mini was so old he'd sort of been almost benched by GW (the Krom dragoneye mini really should have just been a plastic ragnar) now that he's got a new mini I expect to see him given more attention again.

I'll add the book to my list of things to read


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
I dislike this because Ghazzy was the only real threat the Orks had. Who will lead them now? well there is.....hmm... yeah..

Thrakka is still leading the Great Waaagh. His current miniature represents him after the duel between the two. Thrakka's bully boyz brought back his head an body to Grotznik who then reconnected them, gave him some upgrades and a new suit of armor. It's a well established part of ork lore that ork body parts can be sewn back on by painboyz even after days - and they don't even need to belong to the same ork.

Ragnar took a vow to take Thrakkas head and he technically fulfilled that vow, allowing him to withdraw from the planet despite Thrakka still being alive.

changemod wrote:
This Ragnar guy has a completely unreasonable number of attacks on his profile, but you gotta bear in mind Ghazkhul’s real rival is an elderly human sigh a heretek power klaw. It’s not his fault the setting has had really much wonky power escalation in recent years.

It's not a "wonky power escalation", it's descending into silly "My best character fight your best character-style non-sense instead of having the opposition between two generals whose main importance is their strategic and tactical skills, not how hard they can hit stuff.
If GW never, ever give us a direct fight between two special characters, this will be a great improvement to the game.

Man, the thing that annoyed me the most about this fight is that they killed off Ragnar's dogs. They were the only two that were house broken and allowed to ride in Rhinos.

Ghaz was effectively a small dreadnought, now he's a big dreadnought.
There's nothing spectacular about a Marine killing a xenos dreadnought.

Ghaz is a threat for who he is, not for how many guns the meks strapped onto his armour today or how fast he can swing his powerclaw.

He's Ork Creed, or Ork Eldrad, and he could probably beat any Ork in a 1v1 (though that's not been tested, its as much a cult of personality as anything) but he cannot escape the physics of being a massive target who is not agile enough to dodge attacks.

The biggest fluff insult to me is that they randomly turned Ragnar and Ghaz into arch-nemeses, when the position of Ghaz' arch-enemy had been firmly held by Commissar Yarrick for more than 20 RL years. If I'm not mistaken, Yarrick isn't even name-dropped in Saga of the Beast.

And IF they had to absolutely tie the Ghaz PA to a Marine chapter in some way, that chapter should have been the Black Templars, not the Space Wolves.

 =Angel= wrote:
Ghaz was effectively a small dreadnought, now he's a big dreadnought.
There's nothing spectacular about a Marine killing a xenos dreadnought.

Ghaz is a threat for who he is, not for how many guns the meks strapped onto his armour today or how fast he can swing his powerclaw.

He's Ork Creed, or Ork Eldrad, and he could probably beat any Ork in a 1v1 (though that's not been tested, its as much a cult of personality as anything) but he cannot escape the physics of being a massive target who is not agile enough to dodge attacks.

Its like saying a massive 100 kg boxer who is 2meters tall wouldnt have an advantage over a small boxer weighing 50kg and being 160cm tall.

thats just not true.

Size matters and im not talking penises here. Specially when the largest one is wearing a crazy powerlike armor that probably shrugs off most primaris marine bullets. On the other hand i doubt Ragnar can shrug anything at all off Ghaz hits or his giant cannon shots

Beardedragon wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

Spoiler:

what bothers me is that Ragnar didnt just get gipped by Ghazzy. There are so many humans who are super strong, Ghaz should legally be allowed to fight, and eventually just beat him. That they play it off like they're equals is just a turd on the Orks front lawn lorewise.

Ghazzy is the strongest the orks has to offer, and Ragnar isnt the strongest the humans have to offer.

Spoiler:

If the strongest ork, Ghaz, loses to some twerp like Ragnar (or even has a draw), the entire lore behind orks is just not really that threatening. Orks are losers and weaklings that cant even best the humans non-leaders.

They could at least have Ghaz fight a primarch and lose or something id be fine with that, but Ragnar? No thank you.

Hes not even important, and i base that on the fact that I had to google who he was. Important people dont need to be googled.

You dont need to google horus or the emprah or Leman Russ.

But you have to google Ragnar.

Out of curiusety is that a true statement? It of course depends on your metric. But let us look at it regarding maximum potensial damage. Bell of Lost souls did some math on him:
"[...his one turn damage potential maxes out at whopping 264."

Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/warhammer-40k-ragnar-is-the-deadliest-character-in-the-game.html

I mean, what other human/post-human does better then that as maximum potensial damage in one turn? While in game rules do not always translate to in game lore. But in the lore Ragnar Blackmane is considered a very good fighter. Any readers unawarness of that does not change the in lore fact.

Regarding SW structure it is very untraditional compared to other chapters. Instead of one legion at 1000 marines, SW are 12 seperate packs, lead by a leader. (A symbolic 13 pack that has changed a bit over the years now that wulfen are rolled in with the others.) Forge World for the shortest time in 5th edition had rules for Bran the Redmaw as one of the leaders who turned into a monstrus creature as he changed into a werewolf. While Bjørn is in no leadership position he is regarded with high respect. Regardless Logan Grimnar is the 'leader' out of the 12, but Ragnar Blackmane I think is considered the better fighter.

Anyway, back to my question: What imperial model beats 264 damage in one turn?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

changemod wrote:
This Ragnar guy has a completely unreasonable number of attacks on his profile, but you gotta bear in mind Ghazkhul’s real rival is an elderly human sigh a heretek power klaw. It’s not his fault the setting has had really much wonky power escalation in recent years.

It's not a "wonky power escalation", it's descending into silly "My best character fight your best character-style non-sense instead of having the opposition between two generals whose main importance is their strategic and tactical skills, not how hard they can hit stuff.
If GW never, ever give us a direct fight between two special characters, this will be a great improvement to the game.

... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

BrianDavion wrote:
... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

Is it really odd that in a galaxy featuring billions of billions of individual, where communication and warp travel is extremely risky and imprecise, one specific space wolf would be able to track down one specific ork?
And, seriously, are you going to argue that this is the exception and that other commanders don't act like that? I mean, remember the Calgar versus Abaddon stuff that was terrible too?

While I agree that it should have been Black Templars and not Space Wolves in that box, the main issue with this kind of duel is that at least one of the fighters shouldn't be walking away from it. Especially when one literally can't back down because he is bound to vows.

So setting up two characters which are central to their respective armies to a duel like that was a stupid idea from the start.

"Both died, but they got better" was probably the only way to salvage this train wreck.

And also note that the story clearly says that they were not evenly matched. Ragnar and his honor guard(not sure what kind of marines actually accompanied him) caught Thrakka by surprise, outside of his headquarter and away from most of his bodyguards and he still managed to strike down all of them, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves.
Which seems about right from a power-level point of view.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

Is it really odd that in a galaxy featuring billions of billions of individual, where communication and warp travel is extremely risky and imprecise, one specific space wolf would be able to track down one specific ork?
And, seriously, are you going to argue that this is the exception and that other commanders don't act like that? I mean, remember the Calgar versus Abaddon stuff that was terrible too?

apparently he was guided by a vision. so...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

Is it really odd that in a galaxy featuring billions of billions of individual, where communication and warp travel is extremely risky and imprecise, one specific space wolf would be able to track down one specific ork?
And, seriously, are you going to argue that this is the exception and that other commanders don't act like that? I mean, remember the Calgar versus Abaddon stuff that was terrible too?

Several SW got psykick visions of war, of ragnar blackmane leeding them. Propfecy, or self profilled profecy.

"The Space Wolves around the table looked at each other. Gillir Thunderstone opened his mouth, then closed it again and sat down. Logan Grimnar nodded slowly.

‘Well,’ he eventually said, ‘someone better find out where in the damned galaxy we can find Ragnar Blackmane.’"

Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/24/psychic-awakening-the-feast/

Call it what you want. But here you have agents activly working to furfill the prophesy. Logan Grimnar ordering the fining of Ragnar and pitting him against this Ork.

"He was no storm-caller, yet his quarters had turned colder than an ice wyrm’s lair. This had the mark of spirits and wyrd. The dream was so clear! Tor had felt the howl of the wind and the damp earth beneath the wolf ’s feet. Then the battle between wolf and beast… it had seemed as if he was witnessing events that had already come to pass. He was far from his kin, but he had felt a Sammekull – a call of the pack."

Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/02/psychic-awakening-the-call-of-the-packgw-homepage-post-4/

Even regular run of the mill marines gets visions of this.

Ragnar is almost certainly the more skilled warrior between him and Ghaz. Sure, Orks hit hard but are undisciplined, and even Ghaz doesn't have the decades or even centuries of training Ragnar has under his belt. Yes, in a contest of raw strength Ghaz would obviously blow Ragnar out of the water but in a 1v1 duel that is as much about skill as strength I certainly wouldn't consider Ragnar cutting Ghazzy's head off an impossibility.

Pandabeer wrote:
Ragnar is almost certainly the more skilled warrior between him and Ghaz. Sure, Orks hit hard but are undisciplined, and even Ghaz doesn't have the decades or even centuries of training Ragnar has under his belt. Yes, in a contest of raw strength Ghaz would obviously blow Ragnar out of the water but in a 1v1 duel that is as much about skill as strength I certainly wouldn't consider Ragnar cutting Ghazzy's head off an impossibility.

At the time of the duel Thrakka is roughly 120 years old and has been fighting for pretty for most of his life, not to mention that skills and abilities are encoded into ork DNA.

Beardedragon wrote:
Specially when the largest one is wearing a crazy powerlike armor that probably shrugs off most primaris marine bullets. On the other hand i doubt Ragnar can shrug anything at all off Ghaz hits or his giant cannon shots

From a styles makes fights standpoint, Ragnar was the original dodge-marine, and (perhaps luckily for Ghaz) too hot headed to use that speed to stick a couple of meltabombs to the orks back before running off.

The fight would have been a good way to write Helbrect out though, been a while since the holy orbs of antioch have seen any action in fluff.

 Jidmah wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Ragnar is almost certainly the more skilled warrior between him and Ghaz. Sure, Orks hit hard but are undisciplined, and even Ghaz doesn't have the decades or even centuries of training Ragnar has under his belt. Yes, in a contest of raw strength Ghaz would obviously blow Ragnar out of the water but in a 1v1 duel that is as much about skill as strength I certainly wouldn't consider Ragnar cutting Ghazzy's head off an impossibility.

At the time of the duel Thrakka is roughly 120 years old and has been fighting for pretty for most of his life, not to mention that skills and abilities are encoded into ork DNA.

Hey! Do not blame Ragnar Blackmane for being a better soldier through Space Wolf training and genetic tampering by the Emperor through his pack with Chaos. Blame the old once because their Krork war machine has not functioning enough through a lot more then 40 000 years. The fresher batch seems to be the superior product. Or blame the writers, it could have gone the other way.

But Thrakka as a posterboy probably does not shift those units of product:

https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-saga-of-the-beast-mp3-2020.html

I mean, I am not pro emperor. But within the contex of the setting his chosen warriors are just currently the best warriors one on one. And his mass produced Space Marines are a good second place. His genetic constructs are just good.

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
I dislike this because Ghazzy was the only real threat the Orks had. Who will lead them now? well there is.....hmm... yeah..

Prime Orks - Were put in so the Orks could even remotely threaten a Primarch lead imperium. I don't think one has ever existed in 40k and frankly Primarch Orks is just silly.

They could always bring back Nazdreg. He hasn't had a new model or rules in forever and he's the Mork to Gazzy's Gork. While lore seems to emphasize his kunning, he's still a warboss of one of the major klanz so he shoul

I'd rather have it be made clear that Ghaz is the superior combatant, and provide extenuating circumstances for his tie.

Say, Ghaz sees a trap set by the Wolves. He knows it's a trap-he's not stupid-but one of his Bullyboyz goads him into it. "C'mon, boss, what can they do that could get YOU?"

Ghaz goes into it, and the trap is sprung, isolating Ghaz and some of his Bullyboyz. The Wolves expect an easy kill, having them surrounded and outnumbered. And then Ghaz just smashes through some of their line, immediately knocking them onto the back foot.

The Wolves fight, furiously, to keep Ghaz away from his WAAAAGH! proper, to get them disorganized and easy to handle, and they slowly, over the course of days, chip down his Bullyboyz. But Ghaz just does not stop. He's a one-Ork wrecking machine, and Ragnar, seeing that Ghaz is quite soon going to rejoin the WAAAAGH!, takes place to intercept him.

At this point, Ghaz has been fighting for at least three days straight. He's covered in Space Wolf blood, he's got fangs from Thunderwolves embedded in his side, and he is PISSED. Ragnar calmly steps from his ship, foolishly expecting Ghaz to be tired and easy prey, and then very nearly gets crumped in one swing. He realizes he's in for the fight of his life, even though Ghaz is tired, even though Ghaz is alone, even though Ghaz is separated from all that WAAAAGH! power. He starts ducking and dodging, weaving and bobbing, knowing that a single good hit is his end, and puts injury after injury on Ghaz, while getting his own fair share of cuts and bruises himself. But Ghaz just does not stop. As the main body of the WAAAAGH! closes in, Ragnar makes a desperate attempt to behead Ghaz, but leaves himself open, and gets absolutely MANGLED in one blow by Ghaz's claw.

There's a brief battle between the forces, with Grotsnik snagging Ghaz's head, and the Wolves severing Ghaz's claw arm to take Ragnar's barely alive body with them.

Grotsnik resurrects Ghaz, who decides that he learned his lesson. Pick Bullyboyz that aren't that stupid from now on. And then he continues his WAAAAGH!.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd rather have it be made clear that Ghaz is the superior combatant, and provide extenuating circumstances for his tie.

Say, Ghaz sees a trap set by the Wolves. He knows it's a trap-he's not stupid-but one of his Bullyboyz goads him into it. "C'mon, boss, what can they do that could get YOU?"

Ghaz goes into it, and the trap is sprung, isolating Ghaz and some of his Bullyboyz. The Wolves expect an easy kill, having them surrounded and outnumbered. And then Ghaz just smashes through some of their line, immediately knocking them onto the back foot.

The Wolves fight, furiously, to keep Ghaz away from his WAAAAGH! proper, to get them disorganized and easy to handle, and they slowly, over the course of days, chip down his Bullyboyz. But Ghaz just does not stop. He's a one-Ork wrecking machine, and Ragnar, seeing that Ghaz is quite soon going to rejoin the WAAAAGH!, takes place to intercept him.

At this point, Ghaz has been fighting for at least three days straight. He's covered in Space Wolf blood, he's got fangs from Thunderwolves embedded in his side, and he is PISSED. Ragnar calmly steps from his ship, foolishly expecting Ghaz to be tired and easy prey, and then very nearly gets crumped in one swing. He realizes he's in for the fight of his life, even though Ghaz is tired, even though Ghaz is alone, even though Ghaz is separated from all that WAAAAGH! power. He starts ducking and dodging, weaving and bobbing, knowing that a single good hit is his end, and puts injury after injury on Ghaz, while getting his own fair share of cuts and bruises himself. But Ghaz just does not stop. As the main body of the WAAAAGH! closes in, Ragnar makes a desperate attempt to behead Ghaz, but leaves himself open, and gets absolutely MANGLED in one blow by Ghaz's claw.

There's a brief battle between the forces, with Grotsnik snagging Ghaz's head, and the Wolves severing Ghaz's claw arm to take Ragnar's barely alive body with them.

Grotsnik resurrects Ghaz, who decides that he learned his lesson. Pick Bullyboyz that aren't that stupid from now on. And then he continues his WAAAAGH!.

Exactly. I mean i dont mind this being a draw at all, but like you, i need to know that Ghaz is, as you say, the surperior combatant. Lure him in to a trap, let it be a draw after Ghazzy has fought for a long time and is tired, i dont mind. I dont even mind that Ragnar is tactically surperior, but i get kinda angry that the best the orks has to offer, isnt surperior in a straight up fight, to a dumb ascended primaris. You could at least pick like, a thousand year old legendary venerable named dreadnaught as his enemy for a claw fist fight, at least Ghaz is that size anyway. that would also make it realistic. But making a draw of a tiny human? No tactics where Ghaz is lured in to a trap or nothing? No thank you.

They ended up in a draw in a completely fair fight? bs. Its fake news, it didnt happen. 2019 hasnt ended yet. I dont believe it.

Honestly - Ghaz's claim to fame has never been that he's a world class combatant. What's always made him special is hi ability to organize, strategize, and LEAD other orks. Yeah, he's bug and he's got the armor, but in the fluff, whenever Ghaz is mentioned, it's to call out how unusual he is for his leadership abilities rather than his combat abilities.

On the other hand, Ragnar's fluff is basically all about him being a superior killing machine (especially when it comes to things like monsters) so this storyline made sense to me. Ragnar is anything but "some random human" so that's not a fair comparison.

When you consider the fluff and stop trying to draw comparisons between Ghazkul and the Beast, or Ghazkul and the Primarchs (comparisons GW themselves have never actually made), this result makes sense. At least to me anyway.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ghaz goes into it, and the trap is sprung, isolating Ghaz and some of his Bullyboyz. The Wolves expect an easy kill, having them surrounded and outnumbered. And then Ghaz just smashes through some of their line, immediately knocking them onto the back foot.

The Wolves fight, furiously, to keep Ghaz away from his WAAAAGH! proper, to get them disorganized and easy to handle, and they slowly, over the course of days, chip down his Bullyboyz. But Ghaz just does not stop. He's a one-Ork wrecking machine, and Ragnar, seeing that Ghaz is quite soon going to rejoin the WAAAAGH!, takes place to intercept him.

At this point, Ghaz has been fighting for at least three days straight. He's covered in Space Wolf blood, he's got fangs from Thunderwolves embedded in his side, and he is PISSED. Ragnar calmly steps from his ship, foolishly expecting Ghaz to be tired and easy prey, and then very nearly gets crumped in one swing. He realizes he's in for the fight of his life, even though Ghaz is tired, even though Ghaz is alone, even though Ghaz is separated from all that WAAAAGH! power. He starts ducking and dodging, weaving and bobbing, knowing that a single good hit is his end, and puts injury after injury on Ghaz, while getting his own fair share of cuts and bruises himself. But Ghaz just does not stop. As the main body of the WAAAAGH! closes in, Ragnar makes a desperate attempt to behead Ghaz, but leaves himself open, and gets absolutely MANGLED in one blow by Ghaz's claw.

I think this pretty much is the story they tried to tell in Prophecy of the Wolf, though you definitely wrote it better. The only difference is that the Space Wolves waited for Thrakka to be away from the main body of his army, and that the bully boyz were actually acting smart and loyal and went looking for Thrakka, as the feedback of him getting beheaded actually was felt by every ork on the planet, causing the entire Waaagh! to fall into chaos over infighting over his position as the biggest boss. So more competence instead of dumb luck on both sides.

Tycho wrote:
Honestly - Ghaz's claim to fame has never been that he's a world class combatant. What's always made him special is hi ability to organize, strategize, and LEAD other orks. Yeah, he's bug and he's got the armor, but in the fluff, whenever Ghaz is mentioned, it's to call out how unusual he is for his leadership abilities rather than his combat abilities.

On the other hand, Ragnar's fluff is basically all about him being a superior killing machine (especially when it comes to things like monsters) so this storyline made sense to me. Ragnar is anything but "some random human" so that's not a fair comparison.

When you consider the fluff and stop trying to draw comparisons between Ghazkul and the Beast, or Ghazkul and the Primarchs (comparisons GW themselves have never actually made), this result makes sense. At least to me anyway.

I always thought that the reason you hear more about his leadership skills is that it's rare that an ork could grasp tactics like ghaz does. His capability for krumping is implied; he's an ork warboss, and the biggest one at that. That means that he by definition has to be a very skilled fighter, else some other warboss would have beaten him and would be leading instead (and given ghaz's position there would've been a lot of challenges). That is just my interpretation though.

I always thought that the reason you hear more about his leadership skills is that it's rare that an ork could grasp tactics like ghaz does.

That's precisely it. He's the "Prophet of the WAAAAAGH!" which is very different from "equal in fighting prowess to a Primarch". Yes, he's the biggest boss, and that makes him incredibly tough, but his claim to fame was very much his leadership skills and ability to strategize and NOT his actual physical fighting prowess.

There have, in the past even been Warbosses who were known to be better fighters. They just couldn't muster a WAAAGH like he could (and as far as I know they never actually fought), but I digress. If Ghaz had literally been krumped by a truly random HUMAN (as the thread title suggests), then yeah, that's utterly stupid. But that's also not what happened. He got taken out by one of the greatest H2H fighters (lore wise) the marines currently have, and managed to take him down as well in the process. It's just not the travesty the thread title would have you believe it is.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/26/ghazghkull-can-he-krump-it/ felt this might be relevant

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
I dislike this because Ghazzy was the only real threat the Orks had. Who will lead them now? well there is.....hmm... yeah..

Prime Orks - Were put in so the Orks could even remotely threaten a Primarch lead imperium. I don't think one has ever existed in 40k and frankly Primarch Orks is just silly.

They could bring back Nazdreg? The other ork warboss character from back in third. Would actually give us a badmoons character. (and a reason to have a mega armored warboss kit/option again.)

 Skinflint Games wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/26/ghazghkull-can-he-krump-it/ felt this might be relevant

basically they made Ghazzy Krump anyone in the game but no one in the lore.

Classic GW

Beardedragon wrote:

 Skinflint Games wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/26/ghazghkull-can-he-krump-it/ felt this might be relevant

basically they made Ghazzy Krump anyone in the game but no one in the lore.

Classic GW

Ghaz achevied a DKO agaisnt one of the most prominant Marines in the lore. that's hardly him getting beat by some "nobody random human" but hey, keep misrepresenting stuff. It really makes you look good

Beardedragon wrote:
basically they made Ghazzy Krump anyone in the game but no one in the lore. Classic GW

Another reason why we shouldn't pay too much attention to the rules when discussing lore. Never mind Ragnar - are we really supposed to believe that Ghazzy can single-handedly take down a Knight without any real trouble?

Please don’t pay attention to their arena style fights they promote.
One of the worst ones is promoting the lion, who somehow manages to beat every other 30k primarch despite the odds of beating a few of them being less than 1%
They conveniently have perfect and terrible rolls when needed and “forget” certain special rules.


In the fluff, Ragnar is far from a basic marine.
He’s in line to pass Logan, who currently is believed to be the strongest the wolves have/had after Russ.
That’s pretty far from a basic marine.

He also didn’t kill ghaz, and he definitely didn’t get away from it lightly.

The final thing to consider is that GW writes some insanely bad fluff at times.
Their usual go to is killing a named greater daemon or avatar.

Or Drago who just pisses all over those achievements.

The fluff used to be pretty good, but now it’s lacklustre to say the least.
It’s targeted sales info more than anything now.

 Niiai wrote:
Several SW got psykick visions of war, of ragnar blackmane leeding them. Propfecy, or self profilled profecy.

"The Space Wolves around the table looked at each other. Gillir Thunderstone opened his mouth, then closed it again and sat down. Logan Grimnar nodded slowly.

‘Well,’ he eventually said, ‘someone better find out where in the damned galaxy we can find Ragnar Blackmane.’"

Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/24/psychic-awakening-the-feast/

Call it what you want. But here you have agents activly working to furfill the prophesy. Logan Grimnar ordering the fining of Ragnar and pitting him against this Ork.

"He was no storm-caller, yet his quarters had turned colder than an ice wyrm’s lair. This had the mark of spirits and wyrd. The dream was so clear! Tor had felt the howl of the wind and the damp earth beneath the wolf ’s feet. Then the battle between wolf and beast… it had seemed as if he was witnessing events that had already come to pass. He was far from his kin, but he had felt a Sammekull – a call of the pack."

Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/02/psychic-awakening-the-call-of-the-packgw-homepage-post-4/

Even regular run of the mill marines gets visions of this.

The prophecy of nothing meaningful happening .
Makes this whole thing even worse. Some random prophecy about nothing, happening for no reason .

Jackal90 wrote:
Please don’t pay attention to their arena style fights they promote.
One of the worst ones is promoting the lion, who somehow manages to beat every other 30k primarch despite the odds of beating a few of them being less than 1%
They conveniently have perfect and terrible rolls when needed and “forget” certain special rules.


In the fluff, Ragnar is far from a basic marine.
He’s in line to pass Logan, who currently is believed to be the strongest the wolves have/had after Russ.
That’s pretty far from a basic marine.

He also didn’t kill ghaz, and he definitely didn’t get away from it lightly.

The final thing to consider is that GW writes some insanely bad fluff at times.
Their usual go to is killing a named greater daemon or avatar.

Or Drago who just pisses all over those achievements.

The fluff used to be pretty good, but now it’s lacklustre to say the least.
It’s targeted sales info more than anything now.

Then why couldnt Ghaz just molest the chaptermaster Logan and then the mantle would be given to Ragnar after?

At least that way Ghaz could uphold his status as a beast and Ragnar could be set up as the person who avenges Logan by challanging Ghaz to a duel down the line. Theres nothing beastly about not winning to a second in command. The closest thing the orks has to a leader, that doesnt even achieve victory in a fight against someone that isnt even the leader of a SM chapter? No thank you. And he wasnt even lured in to a trap or nothing.

regardless of how you guys are reading it, then a second in command, aka, not even a chapter master Space marine, got a draw from basically the only Ork warboss that is worth anything to ork lore as it stands.

Next to that there are so many named space marines, but barely any named Orks. It wouldnt hurt the Space marine fan base nor universe to have Chapter master Logan krumped by Ghaz. It doesnt seem very grim dark when space marines seemingly always survive.

Its okay for the universe of warhammer, that named space marines die. there are so many named ones already to replace them.

 Super Ready wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
basically they made Ghazzy Krump anyone in the game but no one in the lore. Classic GW

Another reason why we shouldn't pay too much attention to the rules when discussing lore. Never mind Ragnar - are we really supposed to believe that Ghazzy can single-handedly take down a Knight without any real trouble?

Isn't wazzdakka the FW biker boss still around?
You know, mister i drive my bike into the cupola of a titan?

If i'd follow one ork that that one

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't wazzdakka the FW biker boss still around?
You know, mister i drive my bike into the cupola of a titan?

If i'd follow one ork that that one

Sure. but the point is, there are very few note worthy orks but on the other hand,a ton of note worthy space marine or imperial people. It makes sense, sure, but because of it, it wouldnt hurt the universe of grim dark to actually be, Grim Dark. There isnt much Grim dark when the big bad ghazzy for instance loses to someone who isnt even a chapter master

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't wazzdakka the FW biker boss still around?
You know, mister i drive my bike into the cupola of a titan?

If i'd follow one ork that that one

No, wazzdakka has been squatted in 7th. You are thinking of Zardsnark da Rippa whose only feat was leading warbikers against the imperial troops on Kastorell Novem with his bike breaking down before he reached the imperial lines. Fun fact: his Waaagh! aura doesn't even apply to bikes.

The most famous orks in line after Thrakka who still have models are probably Kaptin' Badrukk(currently hired by Thrakka) and Grotznik(always with Thrakka).

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't wazzdakka the FW biker boss still around?
You know, mister i drive my bike into the cupola of a titan?

If i'd follow one ork that that one

No, wazzdakka has been squatted in 7th. You are thinking of Zardsnark da Rippa whose only feat was leading warbikers against the imperial troops on Kastorell Novem with his bike breaking down before he reached the imperial lines. Fun fact: his Waaagh! aura doesn't even apply to bikes.

The most famous orks in line after Thrakka who still have models are probably Kaptin' Badrukk(currently hired by Thrakka) and Grotznik(always with Thrakka).

Wait they squatted wazzdakka?! Ffs gw...
They killed wazzdakka!!!!!!!

You bastards!

Beardedragon wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't wazzdakka the FW biker boss still around?
You know, mister i drive my bike into the cupola of a titan?

If i'd follow one ork that that one

Sure. but the point is, there are very few note worthy orks but on the other hand,a ton of note worthy space marine or imperial people. It makes sense, sure, but because of it, it wouldnt hurt the universe of grim dark to actually be, Grim Dark. There isnt much Grim dark when the big bad ghazzy for instance loses to someone who isnt even a chapter master

Want to do a fair comparison now?
Comparing note worth imperial characters is around half the characters in 40k, and you compare them against a single faction.

Why not compare Orks against another Xenos race?
Tyranid? Tau? Eldar? Dark Eldar? Necron?

Oh, orks have more well known characters than all of those so it doesn’t support the argument.

And you realise that the rank of a marine doesn’t support their fighting abilities, right?

Mephiston far exceeds Dante in fighting abilities, he isn’t a chapter master either.

Not all armies work like Orks.
The biggest and strongest doesn’t denote rank.

Beardedragon wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
Please don’t pay attention to their arena style fights they promote.
One of the worst ones is promoting the lion, who somehow manages to beat every other 30k primarch despite the odds of beating a few of them being less than 1%
They conveniently have perfect and terrible rolls when needed and “forget” certain special rules.


In the fluff, Ragnar is far from a basic marine.
He’s in line to pass Logan, who currently is believed to be the strongest the wolves have/had after Russ.
That’s pretty far from a basic marine.

He also didn’t kill ghaz, and he definitely didn’t get away from it lightly.

The final thing to consider is that GW writes some insanely bad fluff at times.
Their usual go to is killing a named greater daemon or avatar.

Or Drago who just pisses all over those achievements.

The fluff used to be pretty good, but now it’s lacklustre to say the least.
It’s targeted sales info more than anything now.

Then why couldnt Ghaz just molest the chaptermaster Logan and then the mantle would be given to Ragnar after?

At least that way Ghaz could uphold his status as a beast and Ragnar could be set up as the person who avenges Logan by challanging Ghaz to a duel down the line. Theres nothing beastly about not winning to a second in command. The closest thing the orks has to a leader, that doesnt even achieve victory in a fight against someone that isnt even the leader of a SM chapter? No thank you. And he wasnt even lured in to a trap or nothing.

regardless of how you guys are reading it, then a second in command, aka, not even a chapter master Space marine, got a draw from basically the only Ork warboss that is worth anything to ork lore as it stands.

Next to that there are so many named space marines, but barely any named Orks. It wouldnt hurt the Space marine fan base nor universe to have Chapter master Logan krumped by Ghaz. It doesnt seem very grim dark when space marines seemingly always survive.

Its okay for the universe of warhammer, that named space marines die. there are so many named ones already to replace them.

because the purpose was to give ragnar an updated model. Which was kinda needed. Ragnar was literally the oldest Mini GW still produced before PotW

 Jidmah wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Another reason why we shouldn't pay too much attention to the rules when discussing lore. Never mind Ragnar - are we really supposed to believe that Ghazzy can single-handedly take down a Knight without any real trouble?

Actually, that pretty much is what his lore says, so yes you are supposed to believe that.

Wait, what? Really?! There's lore out there supporting Ghaz single-handedly smacking down a Knight?

Well, a warhound titan once stepped on him and he lifted its foot up to get out under it. He also tore a baneblade open with little effort.

It's not hard to extrapolate how a fight with a knight would go from that. While he probably wouldn't jump and finish it in one punch, I'm fairly sure that tearing off a knight's leg should be within his capabilities.
An agile fighter like Ragnar has greater chances of killing Thrakka than something that moves even slower.
On the tabletop he needs eight attacks to connect to kill a knight which would require some fairly lucky dice and isn't that "single-handedly" at all.

Warbosses in general have fairly insane strength and Thrakka is not only stronger than most of them in the first place but also has enhanced strength through his new suit of armor.

I don't think this has seen enough attention

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

how would i know if we did? i started 3 months ago with warhammer tabletop

Step 1: Google Ragnar Blackmane
Step 2: Spend the rest of the day reading https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane

Every faction has their version of "the most badass, super-duper extra coolest grimmest darkest warlord the universe has ever known" or whatever. All the faction fluff is over the top. The OP read the over the top fluff of the green fungus variety, liked it because GW's marketing his probably first faction as the best (because they all are, but likely he hasn't spent time with other faction books), and dislikes that the over the top fluff of the bluegrey posthuman variety won.

Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't think this has seen enough attention

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

how would i know if we did? i started 3 months ago with warhammer tabletop

Step 1: Google Ragnar Blackmane
Step 2: Spend the rest of the day reading https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane

Every faction has their version of "the most badass, super-duper extra coolest grimmest darkest warlord the universe has ever known" or whatever. All the faction fluff is over the top. The OP read the over the top fluff of the green fungus variety, liked it because GW's marketing his probably first faction as the best (because they all are, but likely he hasn't spent time with other faction books), and dislikes that the over the top fluff of the bluegrey posthuman variety won.

Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Probably because, in the lore of the 40k universe, there's an obvious, eternal tier list that dictates who will win in a fight between "the single biggest baddest best coolest guy in the faction" vs any other faction.

The tier list is as follows:

Traitor Guard, Harlequins, Genestealer Cultists.

These factions do not have named heroes, and so basically lose by default going up against the named heroes of any other faction. In general terms, if a piece of fiction wholly invents a character, they have about a 100% chance of dying if they end up in a fight against a character who exists in the model range.

Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Eldar

Pretty much any character, no matter how important, from one of these factions that fights any named character from any other faction in the lore, will lose. Eldar will lose but won't die, or their named characters will just escape at the last minute. They can't bring those guys back but they do basically always lose, kind of the only exception to the general trend.

Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Daemons, Chaos Marines, Orks

This is the "Resurrectable" Tier. These aren't the factions GW is 100% dead-set on gaking on in lore whenever possible, but they are the factions with built in narrative reasons to come back when they die, or in the orks' case, not be dead yet and be able to come back from a big cinematic chopping apart. This is why despite being 10,000 years old, 50 feet tall, and imbued with the power of a literal god, the biggest baddest daemons and daemon primarchs will lose to any given chapter master let alone Guilliman.

Ynnari, Space Marines, Tau

The "Shoot, we don't have a way to bring this guy back" tier.

The lore for warhammer has always been about as tense or interesting as an episode of he-man or Conan the Barbarian. You know Conan is gonna win, he's on the cover of the next book. He's on the cover of ALL FIFTY of the next books.

It's why as soon as Psychic Awakening came out, you knew immediately:

PA1 Ynnari vs Dark Eldar vs Daeemons at the end: Ynnari are gonna win that
PA2 SM vs CSM: SM are gonna win that
PA3 BA vs Nids BA obviously.
PA4 Thousand Sons vs GK+DA marines win obviously.
PA5 Greater Good did predict Tau on this one and it was a "nobody wins"
PA6 I honestly stopped paying attention at all to who was in these at this point because 9th just kind of happened.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't think this has seen enough attention

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

how would i know if we did? i started 3 months ago with warhammer tabletop

Step 1: Google Ragnar Blackmane
Step 2: Spend the rest of the day reading https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane

Every faction has their version of "the most badass, super-duper extra coolest grimmest darkest warlord the universe has ever known" or whatever. All the faction fluff is over the top. The OP read the over the top fluff of the green fungus variety, liked it because GW's marketing his probably first faction as the best (because they all are, but likely he hasn't spent time with other faction books), and dislikes that the over the top fluff of the bluegrey posthuman variety won.

Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

except the "over the top blue grey guy" didn't win. it was, essentially a draw. and he's basicly acting like ragnar is some char that never existed before now. If I was gonna complain about this you can be damned sure I'd consult google before claiming the guy to beat Ghaz was some "nobody"

BrianDavion wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't think this has seen enough attention

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

how would i know if we did? i started 3 months ago with warhammer tabletop

Step 1: Google Ragnar Blackmane
Step 2: Spend the rest of the day reading https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane

Every faction has their version of "the most badass, super-duper extra coolest grimmest darkest warlord the universe has ever known" or whatever. All the faction fluff is over the top. The OP read the over the top fluff of the green fungus variety, liked it because GW's marketing his probably first faction as the best (because they all are, but likely he hasn't spent time with other faction books), and dislikes that the over the top fluff of the bluegrey posthuman variety won.

Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

except the "over the top blue grey guy" didn't win. it was, essentially a draw. and he's basicly acting like ragnar is some char that never existed before now. If I was gonna complain about this you can be damned sure I'd consult google before claiming the guy to beat Ghaz was some "nobody"

A draw to a second in command who isnt even the Chapter master.

So yes, a nobody.

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I don't think this has seen enough attention

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
didn't we have this argument 6 months ago?Ragnar is basicly the "original space wolves hero" he's been around as long as Ghaz has (if not longer) and is basicly the "Face" of the space wolves. Notice that the default Space Wolves company is his?

how would i know if we did? i started 3 months ago with warhammer tabletop

Step 1: Google Ragnar Blackmane
Step 2: Spend the rest of the day reading https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane

Every faction has their version of "the most badass, super-duper extra coolest grimmest darkest warlord the universe has ever known" or whatever. All the faction fluff is over the top. The OP read the over the top fluff of the green fungus variety, liked it because GW's marketing his probably first faction as the best (because they all are, but likely he hasn't spent time with other faction books), and dislikes that the over the top fluff of the bluegrey posthuman variety won.

Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

except the "over the top blue grey guy" didn't win. it was, essentially a draw. and he's basicly acting like ragnar is some char that never existed before now. If I was gonna complain about this you can be damned sure I'd consult google before claiming the guy to beat Ghaz was some "nobody"

A draw to a second in command who isnt even the Chapter master.

So yes, a nobody.

Sorry but what? How can you be both the second in command and chapter master of a SM chapter? Those roles are pretty much mutually exclusive outside of crusade level events. Furthermore, just because you're second in command doesn't mean your nobody, in fact that makes you somebody just by virtue that it usually means you're the heir apparent or next leader. Cato Sicarius for example is captain of the 2nd company but most see him as Calgar's successor, so if you got into a fight with him it wouldn't be considered nothing. Ragnar is already well above the average captain and Chapter Master of most SM chapters in terms of feats and as mentioned previously he has a separate BL series about him amongst the well established fluff about him way back to near beginning of the 40K universe.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Isn't wazzdakka the FW biker boss still around?
You know, mister i drive my bike into the cupola of a titan?

If i'd follow one ork that that one

No, wazzdakka has been squatted in 7th. You are thinking of Zardsnark da Rippa whose only feat was leading warbikers against the imperial troops on Kastorell Novem with his bike breaking down before he reached the imperial lines. Fun fact: his Waaagh! aura doesn't even apply to bikes.

The most famous orks in line after Thrakka who still have models are probably Kaptin' Badrukk(currently hired by Thrakka) and Grotznik(always with Thrakka).

Wait they squatted wazzdakka?! Ffs gw...
They killed wazzdakka!!!!!!!

You bastards!

Not quite squatted. But he has been relegated to one of those little boxes which mention a something happening on the sidelines. But yeah, sadly yeah you can't use wazdakka, or Zogwart. GW is really picky with which characters it supports and which it just drops. Ask a dark elder player for instance. (or most of Warhammer Fantasy.)

Beardedragon wrote:So yes, a nobody.

You really ought to read up on SW lore, because you're just not correct here.

As far as my opinion goes, Ragnar was a mistake. Not because he was a "nobody", he's clearly not - but because he doesn't have pre-existing stakes with Ghaz. Narratively, it feels unfulfilling because of the mutual "kill" element which gets reversed into a "mutual survival", and because there are other Imperial characters who could have had some excellent grudges to be held and meted out against Ghaz.

I'll go through some:
Tu'Shan - Salamanders Chapter Master, was incredibly invested in the Second and Third Wars for Armageddon, and his Salamanders were heavily deployed against Ork forces there. Could have been the Salamanders Primaris model too, instead of Agatone - finally giving us a model for the Salamanders Chapter Master so many had wanted.

Belial - Bisected by Ghaz at Piscina. There's definitely a grudge match there - AND, would have allowed us to have Primaris DA character who we actually knew, and could have dispelled myths about "the DA would NEVER accept a Primaris Marine".

Helbrecht/Grimaldus - Black Templars High Marshal and Reclusiarch respectively. Helbrecht was part of the Third War, instrumental in the fleet action, and actually pursued Ghazzy after the Ork left the warzone. Grimaldus, on the other hand, was deployed on the surface, has had quite a lot of stuff written on/around them, and even a fan-animation series dedicated around one of these books. Both are iconic figures of the Black Templars, and would have made a nice addition to the Templars, who currently lack a Primaris named HQ. I would lead towards Grimaldus, as Helbrecht also has beef with Imotekh.

Yarrick - The Man, the Myth, the Legend. Yarrick and Ghazzy are historically known to be intertwined with one another. Yarrick, having defended Hades Hive and stalled Ghaz in the first Ork invasion, Ghaz who steamrolled Yarrick on Golgotha, released him, and fought again in the Third War of Armageddon. Yarrick even pursued Ghaz alongside Helbrecht! And, while Yarrick definitely shouldn't be a physical match for Ghaz, I certainly wouldn't have objected to something like a Fortress of Arrogance encounter against Ghaz, or more of a strategic war, wherein Ragnar might have been under Yarrick's command.

In my ideal outcome, it would have been something like Yarrick leading the campaign again Ghaz, Ghaz "killing" one of the above Space Marines who accompanied Yarrick on the old man's quest for vengeance (to be Primaris'd later), and then getting blown apart by Yarrick in the Fortress of Arrogance (with Ghaz's head surviving in much the same way. That way, we satisfy Ghaz being a Krumpy Ork, a Space Marine getting to be Primaris'd, Ghaz getting his massive model upgrade, and Yarrick getting his revenge!

Beardedragon wrote:
A draw to a second in command who isnt even the Chapter master.

So yes, a nobody.

Sorry, but after everything that was written in this thread, that is just trolling.

Ragnar was by all means a worthy opponent for Thrakka.

Beardedragon wrote:
A draw to a second in command who isnt even the Chapter master.
So yes, a nobody.

*Drumroll please*

PRESENTING! A list of "nobodies" in the 40k universe, per this criteria (non-exhaustive, I'm sure there's more):

Mephiston
Kharn the Betrayer
Lelith Hesperax
Celestine the Living Saint
Any and all non-Exalted Greater Daemons
All operating agents of the Officio Assassinorum

Not that I'm saying all of these could beat Ghazghkull - just pointing out the folly of assuming that anyone under a given faction's de facto leader is a "nobody".

Sgt_Smudge, great list. I think they went the really lazy route in that a lot of SW art has had them fighting Orks, but I'd be 100% behind a post-Armageddon grudge match. Yarrick and frankly any revamped guard infantry (sure, Cadians, why not? Catachan would work okay. Steel Legion would be epic; etc etc.) would have been pretty epic. And while Ragnar certainly could use the new model, all of your suggestions feel way more appropriate. BT IIRC haven't seen anything new in ages, and the others are nice, too. Or maybe a BA. I feel like some other than Tycho were there?

 Super Ready wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
A draw to a second in command who isnt even the Chapter master.
So yes, a nobody.

*Drumroll please*

PRESENTING! A list of "nobodies" in the 40k universe, per this criteria (non-exhaustive, I'm sure there's more):

Mephiston
Kharn the Betrayer
Lelith Hesperax
Celestine the Living Saint
Any and all non-Exalted Greater Daemons
All operating agents of the Officio Assassinorum

Not that I'm saying all of these could beat Ghazghkull - just pointing out the folly of assuming that anyone under a given faction's de facto leader is a "nobody".

Space Wolves in partcular as they essentially have 12 Chapter Masters (witch Ragnar is) with Bjorn as honorable mention, but that is just because he needs rutine maintenance. I mean, Bjorn is one of the few models that where around before the Horus Heresey and stil walks around on the imperial side with a model in game. (Guliman Being another. Cawl. It is a short list.)

spiralingcadaver wrote: And while Ragnar certainly could use the new model, all of your suggestions feel way more appropriate. BT IIRC haven't seen anything new in ages, and the others are nice, too. Or maybe a BA. I feel like some other than Tycho were there?

Mephiston was present (in fact, I believe it was either the first or second Ork war that prompted his apotheosis from Calistarius to Mephiston), and Dante was the operational commander in the Second War of Armageddon, out-ranking both Calgar and Tu'Shan. However, my reasons for it not being the above are:

Tycho - well, he actually died. He would have been close to a top pick had he not died, because I LOVE Tycho's fluff, but unfortunately, no longer with us.

Dante - a good pick, but he wasn't really involved so much with the Third War, which is where I think the real grudge match kicked in between Yarrick and Ghaz. Plus, the whole Tyranids situation feels more imminent for Dante, so I think I prefer him in that narrative thread. Though I would love to see a new model for him, as the current second-in-command under Guilliman.

Mephiston - also a great pick, but again, I feel the Tyranids stuff is more pertinent to him and the BA generally now. I think Mephiston's narrative is largely more defined by his own condition with the Rage/Thirst than it is directly with the Orks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tycho - well, he actually died. He would have been close to a top pick had he not died, because I LOVE Tycho's fluff, but unfortunately, no longer with us.

Yeah, Tycho is probably my favorite BA proper (I like some of the successor characters as much). It's a shame that he didn't get a model after I want to say 2nd edition? But I like his arc.

Oh, also, didn't BA get a named chaplain related to Armageddon?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Belial - Bisected by Ghaz at Piscina. There's definitely a grudge match there - AND, would have allowed us to have Primaris DA character who we actually knew, and could have dispelled myths about "the DA would NEVER accept a Primaris Marine".

I agree with most of your list, but feel I need to pick out this one in particular.
Firstly, when the Piscina campaign actually happened by way of campaign book all the way back in 2nd ed, it was much more Nazdreg's deal - not only was the campaign more his plan than Ghazzy's, he got a new model released alongside it and everything. I don't recall anything about Thraka wounding Belial being in there - though that could be my memory playing tricks - but the nature of the whole campaign seems like a retcon in Ghazzy's favour, when really Belial should have more beef with Nazdreg.

The other point is that, aside from Dark Angels, Space Wolves are the other Chapter who could be seen as having great difficulty accepting Primaris Marines - and as with Dark Angels, it's because of where they've come from, outside the Chapter. So while it's a valid point that Dark Angels could use that kind of lore boost, it's not really fair to say they should have had it instead of Ragnar, this go round.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

I know that if someone I liked got DKO'd in a fight with a character I was unfamiler with rather then embarassing myself onlne with "HE GOT PUNKED BY SOME NOBODY!" I'd do some research, and if it turned out said character was one of the oldest chars in 40k, with 7 direct novels about him I'd proably refrain from calling that character a nobody

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

I know that if someone I liked got DKO'd in a fight with a character I was unfamiler with rather then embarassing myself onlne with "HE GOT PUNKED BY SOME NOBODY!" I'd do some research, and if it turned out said character was one of the oldest chars in 40k, with 7 direct novels about him I'd proably refrain from calling that character a nobody

That's pretty much what I did

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

I know that if someone I liked got DKO'd in a fight with a character I was unfamiler with rather then embarassing myself onlne with "HE GOT PUNKED BY SOME NOBODY!" I'd do some research, and if it turned out said character was one of the oldest chars in 40k, with 7 direct novels about him I'd proably refrain from calling that character a nobody

That's pretty much what I did

Yeah and I appreciate you're being reasonable.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
A draw to a second in command who isnt even the Chapter master.

So yes, a nobody.

Sorry, but after everything that was written in this thread, that is just trolling.

Ragnar was by all means a worthy opponent for Thrakka.

Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap or something not made a draw in a straight up one on one.

its belittling Ghaz and what hes otherwise supposed to stand for.

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

they DID

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

Erm, if you actually bothered to read the counter posts to your main complaint you would have realized this 2 pages ago.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

Lol

I cant see the picture or what you wanted to show with that "click show" button though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Thank you for this, I'm reading this thread scratching my head wondering just what the hell was going on

Beardedragon wrote:
Lol

I cant see the picture or what you wanted to show with that "click show" button though.

Linky link
https://funnyjunk.com/channel/dungeons-n-drags/Spleenstabbah+mobuttah+darksun/kLktLxY/#f98268_6417476

 KingCracker wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Thank you for this, I'm reading this thread scratching my head wondering just what the hell was going on

The main difference is Space Wolves have significantly stupid plot armor at this point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Thank you for this, I'm reading this thread scratching my head wondering just what the hell was going on

The main difference is Space Wolves have significantly stupid plot armor at this point.

Sounds more like Space marines in general. I mean they are the ones we all usually root for when we read the novels given we're all human ourselves.

I would say get used to it and that this is the type of bs expected of GW these days... But this is beyond simple bs. Even for modern GWs tendency to make extremely cheesey and terrible fluff, this sets a new standard. Ghaz effectively lost this fight as he got beheaded BEFORE he "won". Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Completley downplays Ghazgkhulls whole schtick of being the epitome of the Ork threat. This fight is downright objectively pathetic.

123ply wrote:
I would say get used to it and that this is the type of bs expected of GW these days... But this is beyond simple bs. Even for modern GWs tendency to make extremely cheesey and terrible fluff, this sets a new standard. Ghaz effectively lost this fight as he got beheaded BEFORE he "won". Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Completley downplays Ghazgkhulls whole schtick of being the epitome of the Ork threat. This fight is downright objectively pathetic.

or it shows how dangerous orks are by emphisising how hard they are to kill.

yeah, I think it goes more towards the innate toughness of the orks in that they can still kill you(even an Astartes) after being "killed".

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

 Jidmah wrote:

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

It's not from the saga of the beast Audio drama. In the audio drama what happens is Ragnar leaps at Ghz, shooting him with his pistol as he does, Ghaz grabs ragnar, (mangling the bolt pisto arm in the process) and is basicly crushing Ragnar's chest. Ghaz didn't, however grab both of Ragnar's arms and Ragnar's sword arm was free, and he basicly cut Ghaz's head off as Ghaz crushed his chest

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

It's not from the saga of the beast Audio drama. In the audio drama what happens is Ragnar leaps at Ghz, shooting him with his pistol as he does, Ghaz grabs ragnar, (mangling the bolt pisto arm in the process) and is basicly crushing Ragnar's chest. Ghaz didn't, however grab both of Ragnar's arms and Ragnar's sword arm was free, and he basicly cut Ghaz's head off as Ghaz crushed his chest

Thanks for finally clearing up to me how he lost his head

Sounds like a decent end to their duel to me.

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

It's not from the saga of the beast Audio drama. In the audio drama what happens is Ragnar leaps at Ghz, shooting him with his pistol as he does, Ghaz grabs ragnar, (mangling the bolt pisto arm in the process) and is basicly crushing Ragnar's chest. Ghaz didn't, however grab both of Ragnar's arms and Ragnar's sword arm was free, and he basicly cut Ghaz's head off as Ghaz crushed his chest

Thanks for finally clearing up to me how he lost his head

Sounds like a decent end to their duel to me.

what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

Beardedragon wrote:
what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

*krumps Beardedragon*

What feth? Did you get your brain squig get replaced with a stikkbomb? I explained that like three times in this thread already.

Neither dies.

Primaris wolves arrive find dying Ragnar, bring him back and take the chance of having him cross the rubcricon primaris because he has no chance of survival otherwise.
Bully boyz find Thrakka's head and body and bring them to Grotznik who sews his head back on, in addition to other improvements and gives him a new suit of armor.

It's also strongly implied Ghaz KNEW what would happen, he WANTED it to happen. as Ragnar cuts his head off he notes "this ain't the end, it's da beginnin!"

So lets get this straight...

They pose Raggy so he now looks like hes auditioning for the next stage production of Billy Elliot, while Ghaz is running around in a mech suit capable of obliterating an Armiger and ripping the leg off a Knight and beating another Armiger into pieces with it...



...and despite two large horns and an iron-work jaw protecting his neck, is decapitated...and survives with the help of the galaxy-wide famous BUPA health care system of the Orks...



...I can only ask...did Ragnar have his Weetabix that morning, and did Ghaz train under the Black Knight from Holy Grail?

Neither. The new models aren't reflective of how either Ragnar or Ghaz looked in their duel. Ragnar was still mini, Ghaz was still in his old metal/finecast sculpt. It's AFTER they mutual kill that they both get their model upgrades.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Neither. The new models aren't reflective of how either Ragnar or Ghaz looked in their duel. Ragnar was still mini, Ghaz was still in his old metal/finecast sculpt. It's AFTER they mutual kill that they both get their model upgrades.

And Ghaz still managed to survive decapitation. Definitely sounds like He enrolled in classes with the black knight. I'll bet Darth Maul was giving him envious looks...

Still, can't shoot the messenger. Cheers for clarifying.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

*krumps Beardedragon*

What feth? Did you get your brain squig get replaced with a stikkbomb? I explained that like three times in this thread already.

Neither dies.

Primaris wolves arrive find dying Ragnar, bring him back and take the chance of having him cross the rubcricon primaris because he has no chance of survival otherwise.
Bully boyz find Thrakka's head and body and bring them to Grotznik who sews his head back on, in addition to other improvements and gives him a new suit of armor.

but isnt he dead if he lost his head and was just revived afterwards.I mean technically. I dont think ive heard of Orks not dying after losing a head.

and its so long in between me reading these messages and me making a reply that i forget what people wrote.

Beardedragon wrote:
but isnt he dead if he lost his head and was just revived afterwards.I mean technically. I dont think ive heard of Orks not dying after losing a head.

Orks losing bodyparts and getting them re-attached even days after is a well-established lore. Thrakka's own story was that he has lost large parts of his head, still had the strength to go see a doctor who then replaced the missing parts with a squig and an adamantium plate.

Why are you even getting angry about the fluff when you clearly don't even know half of it?

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
but isnt he dead if he lost his head and was just revived afterwards.I mean technically. I dont think ive heard of Orks not dying after losing a head.

Orks losing bodyparts and getting them re-attached even days after is a well-established lore. Thrakka's own story was that he has lost large parts of his head, still had the strength to go see a doctor who then replaced the missing parts with a squig and an adamantium plate.

Why are you even getting angry about the fluff when you clearly don't even know half of it?

thats why im asking. because i dont know. i was only angry if Thrakka was downplayed as a simple trash character when he was more or less the closest thing the orks had to "A" leader.

also losing an arm and putting it back is one thing, a head is another. so i ask

Beardedragon wrote:


also losing an arm and putting it back is one thing, a head is another. so i ask

you're severely underestimating the durability genetically engineered into them.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


also losing an arm and putting it back is one thing, a head is another. so i ask

you're severely underestimating the durability genetically engineered into them.

Yeah, for better or worse, losing a head and re-attaching it is a long held trope in Ork fluff writing. With that said, yes, GW's writing of the duel was incredibly lazy and uninspired.

Yeah, I'm not fond of the whole "mutual kill" trope on it's own, but coupled with the "they got better after!" and that Ragnar (while definitely *capable* of taking Ghaz out) really didn't have the narrative stake in the plot, it's not a great story.

But Ghaz/Ragnar physically being able to defeat the other, and survive the near death experiences they suffered? That's totally within the bounds of the established canon. And honestly, this whole thread seems to have been born from a kneejerk reaction and jumping to conclusions, as so many topics about modern GW lore are.

It's best to think of the 40k lore and the 40k game not being related.

Ragnar is a space marine hero, Ghaz is likely the most powerful ork around.

In terms of the game having Ragnar have a chance versus Ghaz given their stats and points, would be a joke. It would be similiar to an standard ork warboss with a powerklaw 1:1 Roboute and there being a DKO. In the game Rangar has 0 chance to kill Ghaz. Ghaz can basically choke 2/3 rounds of combat on every hit and still kill Ragnar on the third and Ragnar has 0 chances to kill Ghaz those first two rounds.

It's best to just ignore the lore of the game when it comes to the actual playing of the game, because the lore is written for SM fanbois mostly and makes no actual sense when you look at the game in terms of units cost and rules.

that's where you're wrong.

using their old stats from the 8th ediciton codices, and examining the fight you can see that what occured is very possiable in table top. Ok first of all, important thing here is that ragnar got the charge off on Ghaz in the story, so we'll use that as our basis.

Ragnar has on the charge 6+ 1d3 attacks each at S5, AP -4 and 2 damage. he has 4 toughness 3+ armor and 4++ invul. Ghaz for comparison has 8 wounds 6 toughness, , 2+ armor, 4++ invul and 5 S 12 AP -3 D3 attacks.

So Ragnar makes the charge. assuming he has 8 attacks he needs to hit and wound with half of them to kill Ghaz, he's hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s, and Ghaz is rolling a 4++ save

assuming ragnar is rolling reasonably lucky He can certainly kill Ghaz on the charge. but then in table top Ghaz can use the "Orks is never beaten" strat to fight even after dying and kill ragnar.

so yes, this DKO was ABSOLUTELY possiable in a table top enviroment. it required Ragnar to be a little lucky but it's def something that could have happened at the table top

BrianDavion wrote:
that's where you're wrong.

using their old stats from the 8th ediciton codices, and examining the fight you can see that what occured is very possiable in table top. Ok first of all, important thing here is that ragnar got the charge off on Ghaz in the story, so we'll use that as our basis.

Ragnar has on the charge 6+ 1d3 attacks each at S5, AP -4 and 2 damage. he has 4 toughness 3+ armor and 4++ invul. Ghaz for comparison has 8 wounds 6 toughness, , 2+ armor, 4++ invul and 5 S 12 AP -3 D3 attacks.

So Ragnar makes the charge. assuming he has 8 attacks he needs to hit and wound with half of them to kill Ghaz, he's hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s, and Ghaz is rolling a 4++ save

assuming ragnar is rolling reasonably lucky He can certainly kill Ghaz on the charge. but then in table top Ghaz can use the "Orks is never beaten" strat to fight even after dying and kill ragnar.

so yes, this DKO was ABSOLUTELY possiable in a table top enviroment. it required Ragnar to be a little lucky but it's def something that could have happened at the table top

No. None of those stats are what the 8th stats were.

Ragnar does not +d3 attacks for charging ontop of the +1, he had 5 attacks +1 for space marine charging, that are S5 vs. T6, let's imagine he hits with all his attacks, he then gets average wounds which is 2 wounds. Then Ghaz saves half due to 4++. 2 damage, that happens twice for two rounds is 4 damage which is half of old Ghaz health.

Its just not probable.

Ragnar needs 4 rounds of average combat to kill Ghaz for their original 8th rules.

Ghaz needs 1 round, 5 attacks, 4 hits, 4 wounds because S12 vs T4, ragnar saves 2 and the remaining 2 do 6 damage and kill him on an average roll.

What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, I'm not fond of the whole "mutual kill" trope on it's own, but coupled with the "they got better after!" and that Ragnar (while definitely *capable* of taking Ghaz out) really didn't have the narrative stake in the plot, it's not a great story.

But Ghaz/Ragnar physically being able to defeat the other, and survive the near death experiences they suffered? That's totally within the bounds of the established canon. And honestly, this whole thread seems to have been born from a kneejerk reaction and jumping to conclusions, as so many topics about modern GW lore are.

well you are right on.

I did make the thread after all so i can confirm lol

 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

Actually I did the math hammer to prove it was theoreticly possiable. Blaktoof is apparently trying to tell me I'm wrong about the stats despite having codex space wolves and codex orks in my lap.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

Actually I did the math hammer to prove it was theoreticly possiable. Beardeddragon is apparently trying to tell me I'm wrong about the stats despite having codex space wolves and codex orks in my lap.

what? i dont recall quoting you on anything

Orks are the most psykick rase. The bosses are bigger because all orks think bosses are bigger. Become big enough and enough orks think the living avatar can not die. It is a self forfilling prophesy with a positive feedback loop.

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

Actually I did the math hammer to prove it was theoreticly possiable. Beardeddragon is apparently trying to tell me I'm wrong about the stats despite having codex space wolves and codex orks in my lap.

what? i dont recall quoting you on anything

whoops sorry was blaktoof. my bad.

Ragnar isn't really 'any old human'

Although granted, he definitely isn't the big bad beastie that ghaz is in the lore. Ghaz should be krumpin him!

The wonders of plot armour!

It is a symptom of having a game where characters are models that people own and is therefore unfair to kill them off... I mean look at calgar v abbadon on vigilus. What a shambles

Ragnar has sent Magnus the Red packing back to the Warp in his novels.

Magnus is leagues more powerful than Ghaz is. Compared to the plot armour he was wearing there, beating Ghaz isn't anything special.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ragnar has sent Magnus the Red packing back to the Warp in his novels.

Magnus is leagues more powerful than Ghaz is. Compared to the plot armour he was wearing there, beating Ghaz isn't anything special.

well.. Sending Magnus packing back to the warp also kind of seems overpowered for a second in command.

what happens? like in a duel or what? or just his forces versus Ragnars?

I mean in a duel it would sound a bit.. underwhelming for a daemonic primarch to lose to little ascended primaris.Prophecies or not.

You're right that Magnus should clearly be too much for Ragnar alone... not that I know the specifics of that story.
But I really think you should be dropping the whole "second in command" comparison. Aptitude in commanding armies doesn't equal personal combat strength.

Look at Mephiston for example, he's an absolute beast in combat, easily the most dangerous fighter the Blood Angels have, yet it's Dante that's clearly their most gifted strategic mind.
Or Lelith Hesperax - touted as the most skilled, most dangerous gladiator ever, but in Drukhari culture she's basically more of a celebrity than a military figure.

Ragnar happened to own one of the two weapons that can actually wound Magnus, the spear of russ. He also didn't really defeat Magnus, he threw the spear at him to disrupt his concentration, which then cause the ritual to fail and prevented Magnus from entering realspace.

None of the space wolves ever actually fought Magnus in a duel, nor would any one of them stand the sliver of a chance. Logan wounded him once, but only as part of a large number of wolflords charging Magnus all at once, and only survived because Magnus both didn't know about the origin of his axe and was busy blasting the wolf lord with the spear of russ who was charging him at the same time.

I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ragnar happened to own one of the two weapons that can actually wound Magnus, the spear of russ. He also didn't really defeat Magnus, he threw the spear at him to disrupt his concentration, which then cause the ritual to fail and prevented Magnus from entering realspace.

None of the space wolves ever actually fought Magnus in a duel, nor would any one of them stand the sliver of a chance. Logan wounded him once, but only as part of a large number of wolflords charging Magnus all at once, and only survived because Magnus both didn't know about the origin of his axe and was busy blasting the wolf lord with the spear of russ who was charging him at the same time.

huh.. well that sounds like it would make sense.

 Super Ready wrote:
I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

I'm not too sure on that, but Magnus is mostly considered invincible to direct attacks. While something like Draigo's blade, Mortarion's scythe or the Sword of the Emperor surely would be able to wound Magnus, I doubt that there are more than a few dozen things that can do so across the galaxy. We do know that the weapons carried by bloodthirsters can wound him though - that's why the Lorgar was able to draw blood, after all.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

I'm not too sure on that, but Magnus is mostly considered invincible to direct attacks. While something like Draigo's blade, Mortarion's scythe or the Sword of the Emperor surely would be able to wound Magnus, I doubt that there are more than a few dozen things that can do so across the galaxy. We do know that the weapons carried by bloodthirsters can wound him though - that's why the Lorgar was able to draw blood, after all.

Surely most Necron weapons would do that too given they're anti warp in nature

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

I'm not too sure on that, but Magnus is mostly considered invincible to direct attacks. While something like Draigo's blade, Mortarion's scythe or the Sword of the Emperor surely would be able to wound Magnus, I doubt that there are more than a few dozen things that can do so across the galaxy. We do know that the weapons carried by bloodthirsters can wound him though - that's why the Lorgar was able to draw blood, after all.

Surely most Necron weapons would do that too given they're anti warp in nature

They are not. They're very thoroughly grounded in the material universe and (despite being nonsense sci-fi science) scientific principles.
The Blackstone obsession is their way of finding other tools that work, because the Warp is unexpectedly (to them) still a problem, but most necron weapons don't use it.

Kinda on topic...

Anybody know when they're planning on releasing the models individually? They sold out of the Prophecy of the Wolf set a lot faster than i thought they would.

my guess is when the space wolf supplement comes out so... Oct- December

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean in a duel it would sound a bit.. underwhelming for a daemonic primarch to lose to little ascended primaris.

You keep repeating this, yet it was plainly wrong both in his Ghaz fight, and in his Magnus fight. He was still squatmarine in both.

Can we keed this mindless, lacking any factual basis, 4chan grade, knee jerk primaris reeeing from one thread? Please?

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

*krumps Beardedragon*

What feth? Did you get your brain squig get replaced with a stikkbomb? I explained that like three times in this thread already.

Neither dies.

Primaris wolves arrive find dying Ragnar, bring him back and take the chance of having him cross the rubcricon primaris because he has no chance of survival otherwise.
Bully boyz find Thrakka's head and body and bring them to Grotznik who sews his head back on, in addition to other improvements and gives him a new suit of armor.

I'm going to have to correct you here since dying is literally part of the process in crossing the Rubicon Primaris. That's why it's a risky operation because they might not being able to be brought back when they're supposed to.

Granted, you die on the operating table, but you still die before it's done.

 Irbis wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean in a duel it would sound a bit.. underwhelming for a daemonic primarch to lose to little ascended primaris.

You keep repeating this, yet it was plainly wrong both in his Ghaz fight, and in his Magnus fight. He was still squatmarine in both.

Can we keed this mindless, lacking any factual basis, 4chan grade, knee jerk primaris reeeing from one thread? Please?

keep in mind the bit with Magnus isn't exactly "Ragnar grabs a weapon and beats on magnus* it's basicly the cumumulation of a mult book saga and was basicly ragnar throwing a magic weapon at a guy walking through a door.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm going to have to correct you here since dying is literally part of the process in crossing the Rubicon Primaris. That's why it's a risky operation because they might not being able to be brought back when they're supposed to.

Granted, you die on the operating table, but you still die before it's done.

Interesting, I didn't know that. By chance, do you remember where you read that?

I think it's mentioned/reinforced in the Vigilus stuff when Calgar crosses the Rubicon.

However, I don't really class it as a particularly important "death" when you get back up again from it. Especially when it's a surgically induced "death".

yeah will confirm. they've never really said it specificly but it sounds to me like when a space marine crosses the rubicon his entire body completely shuts down, if the marine manages to "make the crossing" his body will reset (likely thanks to the Belsian furnace kicking in)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

Actually I did the math hammer to prove it was theoreticly possiable. Blaktoof is apparently trying to tell me I'm wrong about the stats despite having codex space wolves and codex orks in my lap.

You are slightly mis-reading Ragnar's Insane Bravado rule, though - in True Marine mode, that only kicks in on a Heroic Intervention, not on a Charge. When he got "promoted" to Heretek Marine mode, I believe it changed to give the +D3 on charges as well, but I didn't pick up the boxset, so don't have the modified datasheet to check.

If we're allowing Ghaz to use a strat to fight after death, Ragnar has access to both Seeking a Saga and Only In Death Does Duty End in Codex: Space Wolves to make his job a little easier (and they're both kinda thematically appropriate, too).

 Jidmah wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm going to have to correct you here since dying is literally part of the process in crossing the Rubicon Primaris. That's why it's a risky operation because they might not being able to be brought back when they're supposed to.

Granted, you die on the operating table, but you still die before it's done.

Interesting, I didn't know that. By chance, do you remember where you read that?

When Calgar crossed the Rubicon Primaris, they explained the procedure some(I want to say in the first Vigilus book). At the apex of the procedure, they suppress bodily functions to the point of death. They then perform defibrillation and if the Belisarius Furnace activates properly, the procedure happened successfully. Calgar was dead for at least 20 minutes during his ascendancy. It's also part of why there was a lot of eye rolling when Master Lazarus was the first DA to cross.

 Platuan4th wrote:
It's also part of why there was a lot of eye rolling when Master Lazarus was the first DA to cross.

I mean in fairness he's not the first Marine with a corny name and won't be the last

You know what? I reckon it was the other way round. All the Masters are gathered in the chamber as the process of crossing the Rubicon Primaris is described.
Then they get to the bit about the Belisarian Furnace, and everyone turns to look at Lazarus.

"What? ...*WHAT*?! Stop staring at me."

BrianDavion wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
It's also part of why there was a lot of eye rolling when Master Lazarus was the first DA to cross.

I mean in fairness he's not the first Marine with a corny name and won't be the last

Having corny names is kind of part of the Dark Angel's identity though.

 Super Ready wrote:
You know what? I reckon it was the other way round. All the Masters are gathered in the chamber as the process of crossing the Rubicon Primaris is described.
Then they get to the bit about the Belisarian Furnace, and everyone turns to look at Lazarus.

"What? ...*WHAT*?! Stop staring at me."

"Azmodai... why are you pointing your plasma pistol at me?"
"Belial, draft a statement to the rest of the Chapter. Say that Lazarus here met with an unfortunate accident in combat."
"Azrael, why-" *pew*

Beardedragon wrote:
Im not really that strong on the lore so riddle me this.

Lorewise, the strongest ork we have access to and know about, is our man Ghazzy. Ghazghkull, the mighty ork warboss, THE prophet of Gork and Mork, however, basically gets krumped and has his head cut off by some random human space marine officer from the Space Wolves.

How come, the best the Orks has to offer, has his head cut off by a random little ascended primaris? Why cant he at least die while putting up a fight to a Primarch? Is that really all the orks are good for? just losing to some tiny turd. At least bring out a Primarch or something to Krump Ghazzy.

You'd think the best the orks has to offer, would be putting up a good fight to a primarch yet he just fights some random dude who got lucky one day and was allowed to be important.

Well yes, but actually no. His head was sewn back on immediately afterwards.