So the head of GW dies of a heart attack and his son with a real bad comb over comes into the board meeting and states that "you have to trim the fat. I'm yanking 5 armies from the 40K line...today, you guys figure it out". And just as he is leaving the board room, he turns and remarks "And no Bill, marine supplements count as a single choice, not one each....and I'm talking the ones from last year, not the ones coming out the next few months. get it done".
Who do you drop?
Me....
GSC Custodes
Harlequins (even though I love them)
Marine supplements (Ultras, RG, IF, Sallies, WS, IH)
And....probably between TSons and DG.... I'd have to go Tsons.
Custodies leaving terra for battlefields has only been the fluff since they were released in 40k, to justify the release. DW and GK would better fit their own fluff in a skirmish game than in base 40k. Harlies should have remained in the elites section of the Eldar/DE codices.
I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
Are we talking Codices? If so, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Ynnari (does that really count as a Codex though?)
So much mishandling and bloat across the board though it's hard to choose.
OOOOH good point with the Knights. I would eliminate one of the codices for sure because there's no reason we couldn't have a single codex covering both the good and evil ones.
I would hate for anything to be removed because that's never cool.
However if I had to..
Custodes - Coz its silly how they would waste their time fighting any ol mooks on any ol random planet.. Makes sense for HH where Emps is still kicking about giving orders but not for 40k where terra can be attacked at any moment..
Chaos Deamons - Should be part of chaos SM/ belong in AOS
Ynnari & Harlies Should be rolled into CWE - I don't count Ynnari as an army.. its 3 named characters that unlock a specialist detachment basicaly so hardly can be called an army...
#1 - Marine Supplements. These factions can survive just fine with the main book and leaves us with only having to really yank 4 more.
#2 - Deathwatch. Not yet their own supplement from before, and yes were their own faction. Chop and they're in the main codex now.
#3 - Ynnari. Sadly, these can be easily slotted into existing Aeldari codexes, just as Harlequins used to be slotted into both Eldar and Dark Eldar codexes. 3 left.
#4 - Death Guard. We're trimming back Marines, we gotta trim back the fat equally. So long Death Guard. You just Chaos Marines again.
#5 - Thousand Sons. Same thing as Death Guard.
If I had to go further so I was actually removing models from being sold...
- Ynnari
- T'au
- Deathwatch
- Agents of the Imperium (Assassins, Sisters of Silence, Custodes, Inquisitors)
- Knights (Chaos & Imperium)
Knights
Other Knights
Custodes
Grey Knights
Ynnari
Bonus- the not-an-armies: Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Assassins.
Basically all the stuff that's too small and overly specific for the wargame. Plus Ynnari for being a couple characters and a plot point that never went anywhere.
Consolidate instead of cutting. Knights->AdMech, GSC->Tyranids, Daemons->CSM. Scrap Ynnari, and do one "Talons of the Emperor" book for Custodes, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, and Assassins.
Considering I haven't played since 5th and only recently got a codex newer than 6th, my opinion may be a little skewed. However, I will go off what I know of the past lore, what I have heard about newer things, and my opinions of how things are being handled based on that knowledge. To be honest, the first thing I would ask is if we are just getting rid of the codex as a separate army and will continue to utilize the effort our sculptors put into them and recoup the funds already sunk into their creation, marketing, etc. If yes, then my second question would be if I could only eliminate 5 or if I could do more. If yes, my suggestion would be this:
1: Roll every single SM codex/supplement beyond the base into a single book containing their condensed rules.
2. Create a new codex called Heretics and Renegades and place the GSC in there along with proper rules for Renegade Guard (I want mah feking Chaos Guard already, please! They've existed in the lore for longer than most armies and still no proper rules that I know of. I think there were FW rules for a bit while they had some models for them, but...). Can easily expand this to include rules allowing use of popular models from their other games (cough cough Necromunda Gangs cough cough). I know that last part makes less sense lore wise, but it would be a good crossover of the models and technically they don't have to be under the same names. I for one already plan to have them do double duty as cultists anyway, if for no other sake than variety from the 5 model mono-pose pack.
3. Roll the Ynnari and Harlequins into a single, small supplement called Unaligned Eldar that can be used with both Craftworld and Drukari units. From what I've heard and read, Ynnari are supposed to be a faction that is slowly bringing the two sides together and recruiting from each. This is cool and a great way to bring about a big change for the Eldar race, including introducing new and improved units in a way that make sense lore wise. What better way to expand the Eldar list than by mixing the two under a united banner and bringing about better units from the fusion. Eventually, the Eldar could become a single faction book under Ynnari with rules for the two current factions and Harlequins kept separate in a combined supplement instead, in the same way as SM. That should keep the Eldar/DE purists somewhat happy while allowing more units for each, as each new Ynnari unit could be labeled as more closely aligned with one side to allow their use in a pure Eldar/DE army.
4. Roll the Traitor Legions into one supplement in the same way as the SM chapters. Also, finish the other big names and put them in there too. Add in the Chaos Knights as Heavy Support/Lord of War options for all Chaos factions. Yes, including Daemons as it is not unheard of for a Chaos Knight to be inhabited by a Daemon spirit like any other Daemon Engine created by mortal hands, and they need more ranged options anyway in my opinion.
5. Eliminate GK and DW as armies and turn them Elite choices for all Imperial factions as by the lore I know they are supposed to be elite soldiers. The GK are supposed to be small elite squads of anti-demon psykers. The DW are supposed to be elite hand-picked squads with the express purpose of fulfilling dangerous missions requiring a variety of skills. Roll the Imperial Knights, Assassins, and Inquisition into the same supplement to be allowed use with any Imperial faction as Heavy Support/Lord of War, Elite, and Elite/HQ choices respectively. This could also be expanded to include new rules for Rouge Traders, Adventurers, Mercenaries, and Bounty Hunters as well, creating yet more crossover with their other popular games. Could try to throw in Law Enforcement Forces as well, but I'm not sure how different not-Palanite Enforcers would be from Scions in the small scale war style of 40k. Maybe beef them up a bit and make them an Elite choice for Inquisition or IG led detachments? I guess that would make them like Scions with different weapon and equipment choices.
6. Eliminate the Custodes. They don't make a lick of sense abandoning the Emperor on Terra after 10000 years just to kick it on random planets. Since they've already got models, maybe they could join the GK and DW as an elite choice. Small elite forces following specific directives from the Emperor (or whomever speaks for him now). If Sisters of Silence is a separate faction, same thing.
Again, this is just my personal opinion based on what I know.
Is it just the codices or the model lists associated with those armies?
Because codices would be REALLY easy and could be kept in the Imperium, and maybe Chaos.
Imperium would be condensed to Marines, Guard, and Inquisition. Knights and Mechanicus would go in to Guard, and Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Custodes, Assassins, and both Sisters would join the Inquisition.
I honestly rather LIKE that Chaos Marines are starting to be more spread out and joining up with their Daemons. I think it works better than trying to stuff it all in to one book, but if we're really looking at trimming the fat, gotta go back in time and merge the Sons, Guard, and Knights back in to the Marines proper, and the Daemons have all the Daemons.
For Xenos, the Harlequins, GSC, and Ynnari are the only outliers by having other races they are part of, but if one REALLY wanted to trim things down, combine all the Eldar in to one Ynnari book and be done with it as they reconcile their differences enough to deal with the Galaxy and Slaanesh. GSC are TECHNICALLY part of the Tyrannid army anyway as much as Guard and Marines are part of the Army of the Imperium, so that's an easy fold in.
At end count that's 3+2+5 = 10 total armies remaining at maximum trimming without actually canceling current model production lines and still giving some space in the Imperium and Chaos.. Of course, it could be trimmed further with even bigger books to have all of Imperium in one giant book and all of Chaos in one big book for a minimum of 7 total armies.
That's down from 6 Marine, 5 Imperium, 5 Chaos, and 8 Xenox codices currently on sale at GW's website. Do note that leaves out a few groups of each section like he Sisters of Silence which are currently not on the site.
And one of these two:
Imperial Knights
Chaos Knights
But fear not! This would only be "on paper".
Custodes would be shifted to FW for use in 30k - but they'd have rules to allow their 40k use. Plastic models would be discontinued though in favor of FW resin. Because we gotta present the illusion.....
Ynnari & Harliquins would be reprinted in both the Craftworld & Drukari codex books.
Deathwatch would become pages in the general marine codex.
The knights would be combined into one book.
Both knights. Banish them to their own gamemode alongside all superheavies. (over 2000 pts)
GKDW and supplements (make a differing list containing SM book with the correct customizability ffs not that bloody difficult.
Curb minifactions that have no buissnes existing Like special flake legions and harlequins and ynnari, same as before consolidate, seperate lists and options within a dex.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
- Ynnari and Harlys into Craftworld and Dark Eldar.
- GSC into Tyranids.
- GK, DW, Custodes, Inquisition, Assassins into "Imperial Agents".
- Chaos Knights and Imperial Knights into Knights or CSM / Admech respectively
- Consolidate SM supplements into one big book.
I'm taking this as completely scrapping the army, not just getting rid of codexes because that's just too easy. Similarly, I'm not taking supplements as full armies, because that just means that I could name all the Marine bloat and go back to just Codex Space Marines and be done with it.
In that case, the first two would be Imperial and Chaos Knights. Both are armies that just don't fit the scale of the game and are incredibly difficult to balance in the game. I don't really see a way to make them work well because they are the ultimate skew that makes it a necessity to boost the antitank firepower in the game to ensure that they can be handled by a normal army. At the same time, that means that normal tanks and the like just melt to any halfway decent army. If you can kill a knight in a turn, you can also kill several tanks.
With the first two out of the way, it becomes a little more complicated. But I think I would get rid of Custodes. They're the elite bodyguard of the Emperor and somehow, all of them have to be absolutely super (honestly, I think that the tendency to make everything better and stronger is getting downright silly in the game). They don't really fit normal battlefields, and so, they go away.
The same basically goes for Grey Knights. Of course, they have more history in the game, but within their concept, there isn't really much in the way of space for a whole army. A single unit that can be allied in to other imperial armies would be more than enough. Right now, the whole army consists of stretching what is a single-unit concept over half a dozen of them.
So, we have to get rid of one more army. And with pain in my heart, I would go for Harlequins. They might be one of my two armies, but they are incredibly specialistic and in many ways, are an expression of the desire to make everything more and more elite.
1. Chaos Daemons - I'd instead integrate them into God-based books, which also include God-based chaos marine factions and renegade guard. I think we can all agree that Chaos Daemons have never quite worked as a universal faction.
2. Custodes - I'd rather have an Agents of the Imperium list that includes Inquisition etc.
3. Grey Knights - as above, don't need a whole book for themselves
4. Thousand Sons - my beloved army would be wrapped up into a Tzeentch book
5. Death Guard - packed in with big papa
I ignored supplements - I uniformly would get rid of them.
Marine Supplements
Dark Angels and Blood Angels (OP seems to differ between the two, get rid of the Marine bloat!)
Inquisition (GW forgot them and we can, too. Put Inquisitors back into DW/GK/SOB Codex)
Assassins (Don't belong in 40K anyway, or should just be elite choices in Imperial Guard, maybe, with rules not better than, say, a Death Jester)
Hmm, hard to come up with a 5th.
I guess Imperial Knights because their models are ugly. Put them into the Admech-Codex if you like, but don't make them a standalone army.
Togusa wrote: I would combine anything in wearing power armor into Codex: Imperial Power Armor and Codex: Traitor Power Armor.
and would you provide a free forklift to transport that sizable tome?
That sizeable it wouldn't be, considering how easy it was to banish all the legions and warbands into 1 dex in the past, might aswell do the same for SM IF only to let SM players experience that and bitterness longstanding CSM fans have.
Ok jokes aside, depending on the setup, aka read customizability of units, you easily* could do this
* if you are willing to invest the time and actually playtest, balance and use your brain more then 5 minutes per entry but that costs time and time is a ressources investment that costs money and why bother investing more money when you could just sell what 8? supplements separately and a dex to gain that sweet swett £$Euro whatevs, screw the gamebalance anyway.
Custodies leaving terra for battlefields has only been the fluff since they were released in 40k, to justify the release. DW and GK would better fit their own fluff in a skirmish game than in base 40k. Harlies should have remained in the elites section of the Eldar/DE codices.
This is the list for me although Knights ought to get slotted in somewhere too if there was a bonus option.
Craftworld Eldar. They just don’t work for me, like, at all. They’ve barely evolved since Rogue Trader, and never quite play as portrayed in the background. They’re also an already dying race that’s hideously and laughably outnumbered.
bullyboy wrote: So the head of GW dies of a heart attack and his son with a real bad comb over comes into the board meeting and states that "you have to trim the fat. I'm yanking 5 armies from the 40K line...today, you guys figure it out". And just as he is leaving the board room, he turns and remarks "And no Bill, marine supplements count as a single choice, not one each....and I'm talking the ones from last year, not the ones coming out the next few months. get it done".
I go and talk to the board about how did this son even get that position straight out the gate, was there a committee to approve, was his obvious lack of suitability for the position taken into account, are they happy about it, and do they know he's about to screw with a sizeable chunk of the playerbase of what is far and away the company's most profitable game.
(starts singing) Bye-bye, baby, baby byeee-byeeeeeee...
But ok, say I'm forced some other way.
- roll up the supplements into the Marine Codex... allow more granular Character options to cover all the special characters' weird armaments. The book is going to be bigger from things like Deathwing/Ravenwing, Thunderwolves, Death Company etc - can't be helped.
- roll both Knights books into one
- roll Death Guard back into the Chaos Codex
- roll Thousand Sons back into the Chaos Codex
- roll Ynnari into the Craftworlds Codex, editing the Dark Eldar Codex in turn to allow some soup synergies
And presto - nobody loses their army.
Honestly, we all know what uproar it would cause by outright ditching any factions now - people still talk about the Squats, and were clamouring for a Sisters update for almost literal decades.
AnomanderRake wrote: Consolidate instead of cutting. Knights->AdMech, GSC->Tyranids, Daemons->CSM. Scrap Ynnari, and do one "Talons of the Emperor" book for Custodes, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, and Assassins.
Agree with this one. They did some consolidation in AoS and it has made the factions stronger rather than weaker.
I'd consolidate the following:
Codex Aeldari - Contains all three Aeldari factions with sub-faction rules. Ynnari would serve as highlords like Nagash in Grand Alliance Death.
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.
Codex: Hive Fleets.GSC and Tyranids.
Codex: Armies of Chaos. DG and TSons would be elite sub-factions inside the larger book. Add Daemons and Chaos Knights and we got a stew goin'.
Codex: Cults of Mars. Ad Mech and Imperial Knights
Then we'd have individual codex left such as:
Codex Space Marines. Trim the fat /the supplements.
Codex Astra Militarum Codex Sisters of Battle. Codex: Necrons Codex Tau Codex Orks
This would leave us with a total of 11 Codexes instead of 22.
First of all I would get rid of Imperial Guard . They have no sense in the scale of the conflict we are playing in modern 40k. They are a skew army and impossible to balance. They are just too weak for the new standard of 2 wound space marines and super duper soldiers. Maybe allow Leman Russes to be taken as a Heavy Support choice for other imperial (aka space marine) factions because they are cool models but nothing more.
Maybe give Tempestus Scions alongside Bullgryns their own Codex because they are the only imperial guard models that actually look good and they are more reasonable in the power scale of modern 40k.
Second, Craftworld Eldar. Crappy design with crappy old models and rules that have never ever been balanced. Nobody in GW knows what to do with eldar model or rule wise. All of their units are the most representation of the Pendulum balance approach of GW, they exist on two states of being extremely OP or absolutely useless. Or thats what most eldar players (The 3 or 4 that exist and actually like the army and dont spam 20 year old resin models because they are OP) say so lets get put them out of their misery.
Orks and Tyranids are fun to kill so I would let them exist.
Next I would scrap Chaos Space Marines. Like, why? People would just use the normal codex space marine rules with their Chaos Models. Everyone would win from this trade. Chaos marines would stop crying about being lesser marines and would access to a ton of new rules to represent their own cool models and conversions.
I would be mercifull and gave a pardon to the last two armies.
AnomanderRake wrote: Consolidate instead of cutting. Knights->AdMech, GSC->Tyranids, Daemons->CSM. Scrap Ynnari, and do one "Talons of the Emperor" book for Custodes, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, and Assassins.
Agree with this one. They did some consolidation in AoS and it has made the factions stronger rather than weaker.
I'd consolidate the following:
Codex Aeldari - Contains all three Aeldari factions with sub-faction rules. Ynnari would serve as highlords like Nagash in Grand Alliance Death.
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.
Codex: Hive Fleets.GSC and Tyranids.
Codex: Armies of Chaos. DG and TSons would be elite sub-factions inside the larger book. Add Daemons and Chaos Knights and we got a stew goin'.
Codex: Cults of Mars. Ad Mech and Imperial Knights
Then we'd have individual codex left such as:
Codex Space Marines. Trim the fat /the supplements.
Codex Astra Militarum Codex Sisters of Battle. Codex: Necrons Codex Tau Codex Orks
This would leave us with a total of 11 Codexes instead of 22.
In a more serious note this I would actually like as a DA, Custodes and Tau player
Knights
Chaos Knights
Custodes
Harlequins
No idea...probably the SM supplements
Knights just don't work for me at the scale of 40k. They're a skew list by design and are always going to be near-impossible to balance properly. Custodes are just dull and make little sense in the setting as a complete army, while also showing up the flaws in the way stats are used in the game system. Harlequins have fewer total unit entries than some armies have Special Characters. They're a strange army with such a tiny selection of units I don't know why they aren't just Elite choices for the two Eldar races like they used to be. I'd probably treat Custodes the same, BTW. Make them an Elite choice for Imperium armies, possibly limited to only 1 in their case.
The problem of the SM supplements is well-known. I'm not convinced the game would be so much better if they were scrapped but in the absence of a better contender for the 5th slot in the list I'd go with them. I do think this constant dividing of factions into more and more sub-factions is stifling player creativity when it comes to representing their chosen army on the battlefield and the SM supplements are probably the most egregious example, especially when it comes to things like Iron Hands or Imperial Fists. Those are armies it's more than possible to represent as just regular SM with a slant towards a certain playstyle, rather than needing a bunch of special rules to try to exploit.
I mean ynnari if that's allowed. Sorry Ynnari fans, but it is just one box of miniatures.
But honestly, my desired consolidation has already happened. My five factions would be Deahtwatch Grey Knights Blood Angels Space Wolves and Dark Angels. Factions like Harlequins may be less popular but at least they bring a little bit of variety to the 47 flavors of vanilla that is the usual 40k faction breakdown.
I'm not against the idea some have put, of consolidating Knights into AdMech. That makes a fair amount of sense.
However, it does leave Chaos Knights out all on their lonesome - so in that vein I'd roll that into the Chaos Marine Codex, instead of throwing Daemons in there.
First I'd try to organize a strike. If that didn't work, I'd quit. Integrity is everything; there are other jobs.
Losing five factions would take this game back at least a decade. As a player, I would probably quit buying new products and "Freeze" the game at its current state. Most of the people I play with would probably be on board with that.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.
No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.
Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".
Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...
A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.
You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.
Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.
A.T. wrote: Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.
Honestly, I'd take advantage of the 'supplements count as one' to take a hard look at SM data sheets.
Quite a few of the more 'unique' units could be moved to supplements for the chapters in them.
Group like chapters together, so instead of having a book for Iron Hands, and a book for Salamanders, you could have a 'Book of the Forge Marines" (Working title) that has those chapters, their specific relics/traits, and the units that fit them, such as say (to be hypothetical) thunderfire cannons, iron clad dreads, and centurians. Just toss in a line that a SM army could take 0-1 units from another supplemental in their army (one total, not one per supplemental) to keep legacy armies somewhat intact.
Other groupings could be "Most Tactical of Marines" (UM, IF, CF), "Special Marines" (WS, RG), and so on.
This doesn't cut anything out, but it makes the company more money on a product line that already is popular, while also making it easier (read cheaper) for the staff to do balance work (or possible for them to do it at all).
After that, just start turning smaller armies into similar supplemental, combined in books, such as Harliquins/Yinnari.
bullyboy wrote: So the head of GW dies of a heart attack and his son with a real bad comb over comes into the board meeting and states that "you have to trim the fat. I'm yanking 5 armies from the 40K line...today, you guys figure it out". And just as he is leaving the board room, he turns and remarks "And no Bill, marine supplements count as a single choice, not one each....and I'm talking the ones from last year, not the ones coming out the next few months. get it done".
I go and talk to the board about how did this son even get that position straight out the gate, was there a committee to approve, was his obvious lack of suitability for the position taken into account, are they happy about it, and do they know he's about to screw with a sizeable chunk of the playerbase of what is far and away the company's most profitable game.
(starts singing) Bye-bye, baby, baby byeee-byeeeeeee...
This is really the only sensible answer. GW isn't a family owned company.
From a business perspective, GW painted themselves into a corner.
Like most factions-driven wargames, GW initially tried to keep release schedules even, but they quickly realized that the sales figures showed an unmistakeable preference for 1 faction out of many.
GW's attempt to square that circle was to split that one faction out into several different factions to split that massive demand, so that once again they could have an equivalency.
but that made 1/2 of the armies in the game variations on the exact same theme. What GW appears to be doing right now - reconsolidating the marines to create a concentrated class of consumer whales who will guzzle down any release no matter how derivative or low-effort so long as it's new, is the right decision from a business standpoint and a creative standpoint.
Releasing primaris stuff that every marine subfaction uses is much smarter from a business standpoint than releasing new, say, Dark Angels stuff.
I just wish they'd go the next logical step and ACTUALLY consolidate the books, rather than continuing to allow power armor to squat on the army release schedule indefinitely.
the_scotsman wrote: From a business perspective, GW painted themselves into a corner.
Like most factions-driven wargames, GW initially tried to keep release schedules even, but they quickly realized that the sales figures showed an unmistakeable preference for 1 faction out of many.
GW's attempt to square that circle was to split that one faction out into several different factions to split that massive demand, so that once again they could have an equivalency.
but that made 1/2 of the armies in the game variations on the exact same theme. What GW appears to be doing right now - reconsolidating the marines to create a concentrated class of consumer whales who will guzzle down any release no matter how derivative or low-effort so long as it's new, is the right decision from a business standpoint and a creative standpoint.
Releasing primaris stuff that every marine subfaction uses is much smarter from a business standpoint than releasing new, say, Dark Angels stuff.
I just wish they'd go the next logical step and ACTUALLY consolidate the books, rather than continuing to allow power armor to squat on the army release schedule indefinitely.
Mmmpi wrote: Honestly, I'd take advantage of the 'supplements count as one' to take a hard look at SM data sheets.
Quite a few of the more 'unique' units could be moved to supplements for the chapters in them.
Group like chapters together, so instead of having a book for Iron Hands, and a book for Salamanders, you could have a 'Book of the Forge Marines" (Working title) that has those chapters, their specific relics/traits, and the units that fit them, such as say (to be hypothetical) thunderfire cannons, iron clad dreads, and centurians. Just toss in a line that a SM army could take 0-1 units from another supplemental in their army (one total, not one per supplemental) to keep legacy armies somewhat intact.
Other groupings could be "Most Tactical of Marines" (UM, IF, CF), "Special Marines" (WS, RG), and so on.
This doesn't cut anything out, but it makes the company more money on a product line that already is popular, while also making it easier (read cheaper) for the staff to do balance work (or possible for them to do it at all).
It probably would lead to less money, thanks to not needing to buy multiple supplements. The whole point of these books is to make it so that players who like specific subfactions can get them without extraneous crap in there.
I'd make more supplements. Any army where I feasibly could swing it.
Drukhari can get a Coven, a Cult, and Kabal supplement--each one adding named characters, signature units and expanded rules for the subfactions.
Tau can get a Kroot and a Farsight Enclaves supplement. These ones would be kinda hefty I think.
Guard can get crazy here. Regimental Supplements with signature units, expanded rules, and named characters.
AdMech can get a Xenarites supplement book and an Explorator Fleets supplement book, each with named characters and some special rules.
Chaos Marines could stand to get a Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers, and then a Renegades supplement. Nameds, unit, special rules, the works. Renegades would be a good spot to add some 0-1 'modern age' Marine units into the mix.
Genestealer Cult and Tyranids could probably stand some goodness. I don't know how I would do it though.
I too would, instead of getting rid of whole armies, advocate to "trim the fat" be removing the load of unnecessary "doubles" or "multiples" in weapon and unit profiles. I think this might in the end come down to a similar trimming result.
For example: roll the imperial weaponry together. Currently entries for Bolters, Autocannons, (Heavy)flamers, Lascannons, Melters, Powerswords etc. appear in Codex Imperial Guard, Admech, SoB, Imperial Knights, all Marine Chapters etc. without any real gain in information. And a lot of those appear in very similar form in Chaos and other codices.
Also take a hard look at the dozends of SM Bolters and think which of those really have to be separate entries. If you are desperate enough to even think about killing of 5 armies you might as well think about rolling together for example IG Battlecannons and Vanquishers as one weapon with two different ammunitions, the same for the Eradicator and Demolisher.
Also take a look into those weapons that only appear on one single datasheet and think if that could not be replaced statswise by some other more popular option. The model can stay optically the same, but for example the Vulture Punisher and Leman Russ Punisher or Stormlord and Macharius Vulcan Megabolter don't have to be separate weapons.
And with datasheets: it would not be too hard to roll for example all Chimera based chassis into one , slightly bigger datasheet (Chimera, Basilisk, Manticore, Deathstrike, Hydra, Trojan, Salamander, Salamander Command...). The same might be possible for Landraider variants.
I think when you are finished with all that (which is a load of work of course) you might have shrinked the paperwork a similar ammount compared to removing five armies.
Togusa wrote: I would combine anything in wearing power armor into Codex: Imperial Power Armor and Codex: Traitor Power Armor.
and would you provide a free forklift to transport that sizable tome?
Given that 85% of the content is identical or nearly so across most of these armies or are simple weapon/wargear/special rule/FoC swaps that could be managed by keyword, most of the extraneous pagespace would basically mostly be characters, so it wouldn't really need to be all that big, and even if 200-300 pages, that's basically the size of the 4E or 5E rulebook or a D&D players handbook, hardly trucklift worthy and well within the accepted size range for tabletop games.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.
No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.
Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".
Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...
A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.
You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.
Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.
A.T. wrote: Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.
Sounds more like your own axe to grind. Someone stating that knights don't fit the theme isn't necessarily because they hate knights, they just think that they probably shouldn't be on a table 44"x60", and it's hard to disagree with that.
As for sensible answers, Dakka is the last place place I would come to for anything that is deemed sensible.
Agree with this one. They did some consolidation in AoS and it has made the factions stronger rather than weaker.
I'd consolidate the following:
Codex Aeldari - Contains all three Aeldari factions with sub-faction rules. Ynnari would serve as highlords like Nagash in Grand Alliance Death.
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.
Codex: Hive Fleets.GSC and Tyranids.
Codex: Armies of Chaos. DG and TSons would be elite sub-factions inside the larger book. Add Daemons and Chaos Knights and we got a stew goin'.
Codex: Cults of Mars. Ad Mech and Imperial Knights
Then we'd have individual codex left such as:
Codex Space Marines. Trim the fat /the supplements.
Codex Astra Militarum Codex Sisters of Battle. Codex: Necrons Codex Tau Codex Orks
This would leave us with a total of 11 Codexes instead of 22.
I see no foult in this list, it is good if it was true.
Agree with this one. They did some consolidation in AoS and it has made the factions stronger rather than weaker.
I'd consolidate the following:
Codex Aeldari - Contains all three Aeldari factions with sub-faction rules. Ynnari would serve as highlords like Nagash in Grand Alliance Death.
Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Custodes, Inquisitions, SoS, Grey Knights, Assassins.
Codex: Hive Fleets.GSC and Tyranids.
Codex: Armies of Chaos. DG and TSons would be elite sub-factions inside the larger book. Add Daemons and Chaos Knights and we got a stew goin'.
Codex: Cults of Mars. Ad Mech and Imperial Knights
Then we'd have individual codex left such as:
Codex Space Marines. Trim the fat /the supplements.
Codex Astra Militarum Codex Sisters of Battle. Codex: Necrons Codex Tau Codex Orks
This would leave us with a total of 11 Codexes instead of 22.
I see no foult in this list, it is good if it was true.
I second this. It's similar to what I was saying, but with less words and less books. Each codex would be a damn tome, but I wouldn't mind so much.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.
No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.
Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".
Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...
A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.
You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.
Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.
A.T. wrote: Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.
Exalted! Well said Dysartes! As well as Brian, PenitentJake, and Super Ready. This entire thread is just another example of people telling other people they shouldn't be able to play with their favorite toys. If that's your problem, just don't play with people who play with those toys. Problem solved.
PenitentJake wrote:First I'd try to organize a strike. If that didn't work, I'd quit. Integrity is everything; there are other jobs.
Losing five factions would take this game back at least a decade. As a player, I would probably quit buying new products and "Freeze" the game at its current state. Most of the people I play with would probably be on board with that.
Right. If this hypothetical spoiled brat fires you, just get another job. Who wants to work for some punk who never did anything to earn his wealth and power in the first place? Companies who follow such leadership die soon enough, which would have you finding another job in the long run anyway.
Considering most suggestions go along with Consolidation with the parameter of needed customizability to represent lists propperly it would be the least painfull way.
this thread is clearly a mindexperiment and to be taken as such, frankly i probably should've further explained f.e. my own bid as to why and what.
i'd like to preface this with the fact, that as someone that just basically lost his faction ruleswise it hurts regardless out of such if i were indeed in this scenario and forced into this at gunpoint atleast i could do it in a way that preserves the possibilities intact for the players at hand and in a way that i think personally would be good for the game healthwise, for if i have to sacrifice atleast it should not be without gains.
Knights of any couleur / Superheavies.
Spoiler:
i mentioned a separate gamemode. The issue i see with all of these, is the unfortunate dual nature of them in regards to balance. Are they too bad they will never see the light of the day are they too good they will become meta warping in their respective position, leading to issues for alot of other vehicles which might survive decently in a TAC environment but due to the nature of the TAC now face increased numbers of AT pushing them out. Which leads to race to the bottom effects or owners feeling basically burnt for buying them
GK, DW, Supplement marines and other special marines.
Spoiler:
Frankly, this is indeed only preference but there are two issues i have with these factions atm especially supplement marines. They are imo a blatant cashcrab in the setup right now. My suggestion is removing duplicate units, tie special units to subfaction choice including wargear etc. and making general units customizable enough to represent the differing chapters over a core of normal marines including pts upgrades special upgrades tied to subfactions etc. This would allow first : for a more "Your Dudes/ interpretation" of representation of them and secondly allow for a freed up release schedule and thirdly for the option of a player beeing able to avoid extreme balance swings internally via the DIY nature.
More importantly it would also lead to a change in rules design policy, whereas before writers seemingly work alone in chambers producing vastly differingly performing rulesets for a specific subfaction this would allow to exchange ideas and maintain a more equal playingfield between them... That would however require a stronger controll of what the rulesteam is doing and quality overall.
GK and DW should be folded into an inquisitional book, since the institutions within are different but in general highly cooperative this list would need to allow monofactions and combifactions lead by inquisitors aswell as a slew of operatives and other similar units.
There are a multitutde of issues with this , last but not least gw's tendency of having meh to bad ruleswriters ad the fact that such a system would cut in the monetisability of the playerbase (aka would be consumer friendly so it wouldn't happen)
Ynnari, DG, TS, Harlequins.
Spoiler:
I feel personally their removal and separation out of a faction into a separate one was the same issue as above which is in many ways best described as minimal investment monetisation via rules.. A lot of these factions indeed deserved better representation and rules support aswell as separete special units. but i still feel that alot of these still feel in a way as a minimal effort cashcrab thrown out to look what sticks.
Personally for Ynnari and harlequins i^'d like them expanded into a corsair and exodite faction with lots of customizability and a broader specific unit base and ruleset that is actually worthy of these.
Right. If this hypothetical spoiled brat fires you, just get another job. Who wants to work for some punk who never did anything to earn his wealth and power in the first place? Companies who follow such leadership die soon enough, which would have you finding another job in the long run anyway.
If only this were actually true lol. I guess like, just try to never google what percentage of CEOs come from households that made more than a million dollars a year?
It's not usually direct nepotism, though there are some pretty obviously high profile examples of cartoonish nepotism in the world today with people whose qualification is "my daddy is the boss" but it's almost always "five members of the board are my daddy's country club buddies and they personally vouched for me having done such a good job chatting them up at our gala luncheons so I got the job."
Right. If this hypothetical spoiled brat fires you, just get another job. Who wants to work for some punk who never did anything to earn his wealth and power in the first place? Companies who follow such leadership die soon enough, which would have you finding another job in the long run anyway.
If only this were actually true lol. I guess like, just try to never google what percentage of CEOs come from households that made more than a million dollars a year?
It's not usually direct nepotism, though there are some pretty obviously high profile examples of cartoonish nepotism in the world today with people whose qualification is "my daddy is the boss" but it's almost always "five members of the board are my daddy's country club buddies and they personally vouched for me having done such a good job chatting them up at our gala luncheons so I got the job."
Yes, all too true. But this hypothetical situation involves a case of someone gaining power through extreme nepotism and then immediately making very bad business decisions. I'll not get into my thoughts on the consolidation of wealth and power by those CEOs and their families you mentioned....
Kanluwen wrote: Anyone who says "they wouldn't mind" is lying or never had to play with a physical copy of an Imperial Armour book.
Imperial Armour book's issue isn't with their "tome"-ness, most actually aren't any more dense or higher pagecount than something like a D&D PHB or a 4E core rulebook, many substantially less so. The problem is that they're taller and wider page formats/covers than most other gaming books making them awkward to fit into some shelves/bags/pockets and more tablespace when opened up
Gadzilla666 wrote: This entire thread is just another example of people telling other people they shouldn't be able to play with their favorite toys. If that's your problem, just don't play with people who play with those toys. Problem solved.
The issue is some of those toys *cough* Knights *cough* have altered the rules of the game and how anti-tank weapons are balanced. So even if you never play against them your game experience has changed because they exist. The same goes for flyers and how they continue to skew the game as they go from useful to useless at the whims of a rules team that can never really pin down where they fit into the balance of things.
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.
No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.
Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".
Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...
A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.
You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.
Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.
A.T. wrote: Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.
What makes their answers sensible compared to others?
They don't remove models from players to play them. A position perfectly valid to take but a bit missing the point considering this is a mind experiment.
Still it would be gakky to do but GW is not above doing it as recently demonstrated so it potentially is an issue anyway.
The niche factions already mentioned in this thread, but I'd keep GSC, they're pretty iconic in 40k, have a good range of models and an interesting play style.
I don't think it's a good idea to release so many factions into the game because it just adds to the number of books that need updating every edition, which will inevitably disappoint players when their stuff is no longer playable (either through lack of up to date rules or falling so far behind due to power creep)
Gadzilla666 wrote: This entire thread is just another example of people telling other people they shouldn't be able to play with their favorite toys. If that's your problem, just don't play with people who play with those toys. Problem solved.
The issue is some of those toys *cough* Knights *cough* have altered the rules of the game and how anti-tank weapons are balanced. So even if you never play against them your game experience has changed because they exist. The same goes for flyers and how they continue to skew the game as they go from useful to useless at the whims of a rules team that can never really pin down where they fit into the balance of things.
I agree. I'd suggest just making them pay a premium in points, so that they can exist, people can have fun with them but ultimately they won't be good picks in a competitive environment because they're a bit too costly for what they do. A bit like the stompa, but not so over the top overpriced (because that's just ridiculous)
Gadzilla666 wrote: This entire thread is just another example of people telling other people they shouldn't be able to play with their favorite toys. If that's your problem, just don't play with people who play with those toys. Problem solved.
The issue is some of those toys *cough* Knights *cough* have altered the rules of the game and how anti-tank weapons are balanced. So even if you never play against them your game experience has changed because they exist. The same goes for flyers and how they continue to skew the game as they go from useful to useless at the whims of a rules team that can never really pin down where they fit into the balance of things.
Yes, personally I don't think knights should be a stand alone army. That's a skew list, plain and simple. Also, as you said, it forced the implementation of the "always wounds on a 6" rule. But that doesn't mean knights shouldn't exist. Their biggest problem is their price. A single Baneblade is somewhere between the price of two to three Leman Russes, depending on the loadout of either, but is only slightly more durable than two of those Leman Russes. If knights were priced at a similar scale in comparison to smaller units with comparable defensive profiles they would be less of a problem. Unfortunately they aren't. Gw insists on making them cheaper than other LOWs, for whatever reason.
Not Online!!! wrote: They don't remove models from players to play them. A position perfectly valid to take but a bit missing the point considering this is a mind experiment.
Still it would be gakky to do but GW is not above doing it as recently demonstrated so it potentially is an issue anyway.
I guess I missed the part where removing extra Marine codices that exist for no good reason removed that player's models.
or we could make a propper quasi apo point level where other rules interact and superheavies may reign supreme instead of making them pointless beyond any reason and therefore missinvestments or completly metawarping.
like boxing has weight classes one could and probably should as i have stated do so for 40k.
Not Online!!! wrote: They don't remove models from players to play them. A position perfectly valid to take but a bit missing the point considering this is a mind experiment.
Still it would be gakky to do but GW is not above doing it as recently demonstrated so it potentially is an issue anyway.
I guess I missed the part where removing extra Marine codices that exist for no good reason removed that player's models.
special units and wargear options, but this is also why i'd prefer a decently customizable mainline SM dex to allow people to still represent them and have them all in one codex.
Some of the serious responses here makes me realize people have not seen Horrible Bosses. So now, to add to the mix, based upon the incessant posting of one particular poster on the topic.....I'd axe all Forgeworld too.
Ynnari - Literally no lore or units for them except for three characters and broken rules.
Custodes & Sisters of Silence - they shouldn't be seperate codexes but instead 1 codex combined with the Talons of the Emperor.
DW - Should be combined into the Ordo Xenos so they can take inqusition troops and others. And be a supplement force for the Inqusition forces
Grey Knights - Similar to DW that they should be supplementary forces to the Ordos / Inqusition. You can't take Grey Knights by themselves and if you do there is penalities to it but massive benefits as well (less CP, more rules)
Space Marine Supplements - Too Many of these I am annoyed by them stop it, just make it 1 codex and 2 codex supplements, 1 codex supplement for all the 'non-codex' and one for codex compliants. Bam don.
Imperial Knights / Chaos Knights - remove these from the game, they have no place in normal games of the hobby. Its why I left the hobby in the first place. Always overpowered and exhausting to fight against.
Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights - These two codecies are absolutely game-warping, even when they're not good. So many things, from special detachments to the way things in the system interact, exist for these codecies to function, and so many changes could be made but for "but this does X to Imperial Knights". The basic idea of them is terrible too - having an entire army of titanic units that doesn't work or even play the same game as everybody else does, and also any aligned faction can/should take one as an ally. I would convert this codex into Lords of War for AdMech [with Armigers going to HS].
Genestealer Cults - Seriously, this is something that can and should have been left in Warhammer's past. There are so many unfortunate implications and messages communicated by this faction, especially with it's new incarnation, and it also has a ton of inconsistent theming matchups. "The Resistance" should have gone to chaos renegades, who are notably not mind controlled by alien rape, thus avoiding basically all the unfortunate interpretations that could arise around that. The whole deal with the mind control rape with survivors being continued propagators as infiltrators should also just have been outright dropped, because there are seriously way too many unfortunately implications there. There are lots of ways to accomplish either or both of the societal infiltrators and/or Aliens Xenomorphs themes without having unfortunate messages.
Inquisition, Assassins, and other "Agents of the Imperium" [excluding Sisters of Silence] - These were once HQ and Elites choices from the Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle. Separating them out into "armies that aren't armies" was basically a ploy to get every Imperial army to include one in the same vein as Imperial Knights. Fold them back in to their respective codecies.
Tsons and DG - Really, there should never have been 4 Space Marine codecies. There should also never have been Space Marine supplements. We don't need to continue this trend of having every subfaction or microfaction be it's own army book. Alternatively change the structure of Chaos from Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Knights, Chaos Daemons, [Chaos Renegades] to: Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War, Traitors and Renegades
Talons of the Emperor - Seriously, didn't need to be an army.
I would effectively change the roster to:
Space Marines - covering all loyalist Space Marine Chapters, without supplements, and paring down the exceptions for "but SW/DA instead do X".
Imperial Guard
Adeptus Mechanicus - including all current AdMech units + Imperial Knights
Witch Hunters - including all current SoB and Adeptus Ministorium units plus Ordo Hereticus Inquisitoral units, Assassins, and Frateris Milita
Daemonhunters - including all current Grey Knight units plus Ordo Malleus Inquisitorial units and Assassins.
Xenos Hunters - including Ordo Xenos Inquisitorial units and Deathwatch Space Marines, plus maybe access to some human specialists.
Chaos Legions - Covering Chaos forces from the Horus Heresy
Chaos Renegades - Covering chaos-backed insurgent cells, renegade space marines [IE: Red Corsairs], a selection of traitor imperial units from Guard, Sisters, and AdMech, with Chaos Knights as lord of war options.
Chaos Daemons
Tyranids
Genestealer Infiltration - refluffed to be more of "the president is a disguised/is controlled by aliens" theme without the insurgency themes or mind control rape unfortunate implications.
Craftworld Eldar
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Tau
Orks
Necrons
Why in the hell would you change the GSC to that garbage?
That's the sheer frigging horror of the faction. They genuinely believe that they are the true inheritors of humanity's legacy. That the worlds they're on have been subjugated. They they need to rise up to liberate it. And more than that, they genuinely care and love their hideous alien-babies.
Kanluwen wrote: They genuinely believe that they are the true inheritors of humanity's legacy.
They don't believe anything. They're mind controlled by the patriarch. That's literally the whole thing with the genestealer's parasite that mind-links and enslaves the victim to the genestealer cult's will.
The rest of their space-rape-infiltrators-crap gets into the realm of having unfortunately implications no matter how you look at it about several things from sexual assault survivor challenges to terrorist organizations
Warhammer 40k has never been apolitical, since it's basically an extended telling of the failures of fascism and theocracy. However, the Genestealer cults and there themes aren't written as part of a political discussion. They're just there, and just awful. They're not horror, they're not funny, they're not even particularly well in the heritage of classic sci-fi since the objectionable space-rape-mind-control-infiltrator-willing-propagator thing isn't actually in the heritage of Alien, which space hulk-luirking Hive Fleet Genestealers cover fine as well without unfortunate and uncomfortable implications.
This is a piece of lore that's the product of trying to merge two things - infiltrators taking over society, and Aliens, and doesn't really have redeeming value for existing. It doesn't have a deliberate message, and really just doesn't need to be. The Aliens reference is covered by Hive Fleet Genestealers already, so GSC if it needs to exist can cover the infiltrators, or just be deleted and let go with the other weird stuff from 40k's past.
Kanluwen wrote: They genuinely believe that they are the true inheritors of humanity's legacy.
They don't believe anything. They're mind controlled by the patriarch. That's literally the whole thing with the genestealer's parasite that mind-links and enslaves the victim to the genestealer cult's will.
The rest of their space-rape-infiltrators-crap gets into the realm of having unfortunately implications no matter how you look at it about several things from sexual assault survivor challenges to terrorist organizations
Warhammer 40k has never been apolitical, since it's basically an extended telling of the failures of fascism and theocracy. However, the Genestealer cults and there themes aren't written as part of a political discussion. They're just there, and just awful. They're not horror, they're not funny, they're not exciting, they're not even particularly well in the heritage of classic sci-fi since the objectionable space-rape-mind-control-infiltrator-willing-propagator thing isn't actually in the heritage of Alien, which space hulk-luirking Hive Fleet Genestealers cover fine as well without unfortunate and uncomfortable implications.
Hi, maybe you are new to 40k (joking) but we have this thing called "Grim Dark" and ohh yeah, Slaanesh is a fething thing
Kanluwen wrote: Why in the hell would you change the GSC to that garbage?
That's the sheer frigging horror of the faction. They genuinely believe that they are the true inheritors of humanity's legacy.
I don't know if that's true. Most of the GSC fluff tends to revolve around a superior life-form from beyond coming to deliver them from flawed humanity. They have a view of humanity similar to the Admech, just a different means of reducing it.
Kanluwen wrote: That the worlds they're on have been subjugated.
to be fair, completely true by any measurable objective standard.
Kanluwen wrote: They they need to rise up to liberate it. And more than that, they genuinely care and love their hideous alien-babies.
How much industrial suffering can you put a human being through before obliterating themselves to obliterate you is a worthwhile proposition, is the question posed by factions like chaos renegades and GSC.
Kanluwen wrote: They genuinely believe that they are the true inheritors of humanity's legacy.
They don't believe anything. They're mind controlled by the patriarch. That's literally the whole thing with the genestealer's parasite that mind-links and enslaves the victim to the genestealer cult's will.
The rest of their space-rape-infiltrators-crap gets into the realm of having unfortunately implications no matter how you look at it about several things from sexual assault survivor challenges to terrorist organizations
Warhammer 40k has never been apolitical, since it's basically an extended telling of the failures of fascism and theocracy. However, the Genestealer cults and there themes aren't written as part of a political discussion. They're just there, and just awful. They're not horror, they're not funny, they're not exciting, they're not even particularly well in the heritage of classic sci-fi since the objectionable space-rape-mind-control-infiltrator-willing-propagator thing isn't actually in the heritage of Alien, which space hulk-luirking Hive Fleet Genestealers cover fine as well without unfortunate and uncomfortable implications.
Genestealers have always been Alien, but Genestealer Cults generally have been themed more in line with Shadows Over Innsmouth, which is where the whole structure of the cult and the genestealers reproduction via rape comes in.
From the descriptions of the way genestealer cults operate and fiction surrounding them, the Broodmind is not total mind control in the same way the Hivemind is. Genestealer Hybrids are not just basic animals in the way that tyranid hivemind creatures are. The broodmind allows for telepathic communications and commands, alters the perception of the people it affects, and allows for some psychic powers and such.
Hi, maybe you are new to 40k (joking) but we have this thing called "Grim Dark" and ohh yeah, Slaanesh is a fething thing
The GSC isn't really grim or dark. It's just bad. The Imperium is grim and dark because it's a facsist theocracy in a perpetual state of war with the world. The Genestealers are really just shock value.
The Dark Eldar are also a thing. I don't have problems with Slaanesh or the Dark Eldar. Sex isn't a problem. Slaanesh is seductive and converts people by appealing to their primal desires, which is basically the opposite of the GSC. Dark Eldar are just BDSM. Neither really are problematic.
Also, the reproduction through rape is MUCH MORE LITERAL in alien than in 40k's genestealer cults.
Alien: facehugger grabs person, impregnates person with chest burster, chest burster burst out of person.
Genestealer: Genestealer grabs person, implants a tiny organism that contains some of the genestealers genes, Genestealer hypnotizes person to forget what happened to them and to care for any weird hybrid babies they have.
Hi, maybe you are new to 40k (joking) but we have this thing called "Grim Dark" and ohh yeah, Slaanesh is a fething thing
Sex isn't a problem. Slaanesh is seductive and converts people by appealing to their primal desires, which is basically the opposite of the GSC./quote]
Every piece of lore I have read regarding how daemonettes etc appear to function would seem to have the exact same unfortunate implications that genestealers do. People aren't attracted to the fang-toothed crab clawed velociraptor legged monsters, they're hypnotized and made to think they're the objects of their desire. It's the whole "impossibly hot enchanting lady who is actually a horrific monster that wants to eat you/torture you to death" trope.
GSC reproduction is rape because the genestealer hypnotizes the victim.
Do not see how any interaction with any slaanesh thing is any different in terms of this particular problematic aspect.
Also, um, nope. Dark eldar are torture and murder, sex is pretty much never mentioned in their fiction at all in any form, people just associate them with bdsm because whips and spiky leather.
I don't know how we can label the horrific violation of bodily autonomy that is a haemonculus coven taking civilians from a diplomatic delegation of the tau and turning them into flesh monstrosities as 'not really problematic.'
Also, um, nope. Dark eldar are torture and murder, sex is pretty much never mentioned in their fiction at all in any form, people just associate them with bdsm because whips and spiky leather.
I don't know how we can label the horrific violation of bodily autonomy that is a haemonculus coven taking civilians from a diplomatic delegation of the tau and turning them into flesh monstrosities as 'not really problematic.'
Dark Eldar styling used to be in the BDSM style. Dawn of War: Soulstorm used those when they introduced them. The tabletop models changed with the 5e restyling (thank goodness, imo).
Also remember that the Dark Eldar are the Aeldari who didn't stop their habits when they birthed Slaanesh, just refocused them.
Kanluwen wrote: They genuinely believe that they are the true inheritors of humanity's legacy.
They don't believe anything. They're mind controlled by the patriarch. That's literally the whole thing with the genestealer's parasite that mind-links and enslaves the victim to the genestealer cult's will.
The rest of their space-rape-infiltrators-crap gets into the realm of having unfortunately implications no matter how you look at it about several things from sexual assault survivor challenges to terrorist organizations
Warhammer 40k has never been apolitical, since it's basically an extended telling of the failures of fascism and theocracy. However, the Genestealer cults and there themes aren't written as part of a political discussion. They're just there, and just awful. They're not horror, they're not funny, they're not even particularly well in the heritage of classic sci-fi since the objectionable space-rape-mind-control-infiltrator-willing-propagator thing isn't actually in the heritage of Alien, which space hulk-luirking Hive Fleet Genestealers cover fine as well without unfortunate and uncomfortable implications.
This is a piece of lore that's the product of trying to merge two things - infiltrators taking over society, and Aliens, and doesn't really have redeeming value for existing. It doesn't have a deliberate message, and really just doesn't need to be. The Aliens reference is covered by Hive Fleet Genestealers already, so GSC if it needs to exist can cover the infiltrators, or just be deleted and let go with the other weird stuff from 40k's past.
I will note that cultural fears of social upheaval and revolution through genetic/racial/etc degradation or manipulation, often forcible or conspiratorially planned, are not exactly unheard of through the ages, and remain lightning rods (usually in reworded form) in modern political theater in many places. It's in fact hard to express much about this concept without it stepping into a lot of modern politics on that.
So, while I can understand why someone might find their concept objectionable, I think there's absolutely political themes in that concept just as much as there are in the Theocratic and Fascist elements of the Imperium.
the_scotsman wrote: Also, the reproduction through rape is MUCH MORE LITERAL in alien than in 40k's genestealer cults.
Alien: facehugger grabs person, impregnates person with chest burster, chest burster burst out of person.
Genestealer: Genestealer grabs person, implants a tiny organism that contains some of the genestealers genes, Genestealer hypnotizes person to forget what happened to them and to care for any weird hybrid babies they have.
At least to me, the Alien one has so many fewer unfortunate implications. It's literally just the spider parasite wasp thing where it plants it's young on the host and then the young devour the host alive.
There are so many more problematic things about the Genestealers, from the mind control to the difference in the manner of reproduction to the connections between the aforementioned and insurgent organizations and survivor care.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: I will note that cultural fears of social upheaval and revolution through genetic/racial/etc degradation or manipulation, often forcible or conspiratorially planned, are not exactly unheard of through the ages, and remain lightning rods (usually in reworded form) in modern political theater in many places. It's in fact hard to express much about this concept without it stepping into a lot of modern politics on that.
So, while I can understand why someone might find their concept objectionable, I think there's absolutely political themes in that concept just as much as there are in the Theocratic and Fascist elements of the Imperium.
I get that.
That said, the Imperium's set up so that it has a satirical point. There's narrative purpose to the Imperium being the way it is. The genestealer cults... don't really. It's just there.
So firstly, saying 'get rid of it but put it in another codex' is a cop out; it is not actually cutting the army from the game as per the original premise (though I can understand retaining one or two units; like having Harlequins as an elite option for Eldar armies). I am personally considering anything without a codex not to count--too easy to just name Ynnari, Assassins, and Inquisitors so get the majority out of the way without making hard choices.
Harlequins are an easy choice; they have barely any model support in terms of kits and are not such a longstanding faction that their removal would draw a ton of rage. Custodes are even more obvious, for the same reasons. And while it goes against my aforementioned bit about rolling things into other 'dexes, these could each be represented by a single unit or two available to Eldar/Imperium respectively.
Grey Knights. Right from the concept an army designed to fight against a certain type of foe will cause balance issues; at best they will be OP against their favored enemy and UP against everyone else. Trying to offset this by giving their favored enemy a bonus when fighting them simply makes a balanced circumstance nearly impossible to achieve. Further, Grey Knights are an army where every unit is a psyker, which is difficult to manage. The core rules are based around a few units in an army being psykers if any, and it creates a huge skew on the part of the army which piles on further difficulty. It is always going to be an army difficult to write in such a way that it makes 40k better for being there.
Knights are one I have to consider. They are not a proper army like every other codex, just a handful of big robots. Not to mention the issues of scale, opponents not having the tools to deal with them, etc. However on the other hand giant killy robots are cool as hell and there is a lot of appeal there, plus they can be brought in to augment another army. However at the end of the day the LoW-level massive models are not what 40k is supposed to be about, doubly so with GW pushing the viability of smaller game sizes. So I would have to cut this one from 40k (of course the models could be kept around for Apocalypse). Considering Imperial & Chaos Knights to be just one choice since they are simply two sides of the same coin.
The last choice is a hard one. But I have to go with Marine supplements. The reality is that if we want to talk about bloat in the 40k range, Marines are where it is at. Consolidating datasheets down, eliminating units without a distinct purpose, and being less stingy with 'no model no rules' could easily create enough room for the chapter-specific units & stratagems. Having multiple pages of extra stratagems and relics for individual chapters already creates issues we see in the game right now.
For the record I would not like cutting any of these and I do not want to see any of them cut (ok maybe marine supplements).
Harlequins have been around since RT. They are one of the oldest factions in the game, and *the* oldest still-extant Eldar sub-faction - they date to 1988, Craftworlds as sub-faction dates to 1991. The original eldar sub-faction was pirates/corsairs, something that doesn't really exist any more; technically there may still be a FW army list, but there is no model range.
The obvious choices in my mind are the two knights and custodes. None of these three armies ever belonged in normal 40k, the first two because of the scale, the third because of the lore.
After that there are no good choices, assuming you actually mean discontinuing an army, not just rolling into another one, which doesn't mean anything practically. It just comes down to what armies people care about least.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So firstly, saying 'get rid of it but put it in another codex' is a cop out; it is not actually cutting the army from the game as per the original premise (though I can understand retaining one or two units; like having Harlequins as an elite option for Eldar armies). I am personally considering anything without a codex not to count--too easy to just name Ynnari, Assassins, and Inquisitors so get the majority out of the way without making hard choices.
Actually it removes the army without removing the models. The army is just the organizational structure attached to the models. Some of those models are still "paying for themselves" and need to be continued so the return on investment is at least met. And the direction was to remove the armies, not the models.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: They're not horror, they're not funny, they're not even particularly well in the heritage of classic sci-fi since the objectionable space-rape-mind-control-infiltrator-willing-propagator thing isn't actually in the heritage of Alien, which space hulk-luirking Hive Fleet Genestealers cover fine as well without unfortunate and uncomfortable implications.
For "pop sci-fi" You have Invasion of the Body Snatchers and similar mind control stories.
For more "high-brow" Check out Lilith's Brood by Octavia Butler.
Rosemary's Baby also seems very relevant, the mother who (Spoilers for 40+ year old movie) gives birth to the spawn of satan and is horrified, but accepts and decides to love and care for it anyways.
That said, the Imperium's set up so that it has a satirical point. There's narrative purpose to the Imperium being the way it is. The genestealer cults... don't really. It's just there.
I think the satirical parts of the Genestealer cult are stemming from the sort of pop-culture fear of satanic cults in the 80's. And the early incarnations of the GSC specifically had Chaos worshipping sects, where the Patriarch would make a dark deal with a Greater Daemon and so forth.
In the end you have a combination of Alien, the "satanic panic", and Invasion of the Body Snatchers and you get the GSC.
I actually don't mind Custodes. Sure you can hate on the lore but one thing they offer is a totally different design space after Marines equivalents and Nobz and such, and that's something to consider.
If only this were actually true lol. I guess like, just try to never google what percentage of CEOs come from households that made more than a million dollars a year?
It's not usually direct nepotism, though there are some pretty obviously high profile examples of cartoonish nepotism in the world today with people whose qualification is "my daddy is the boss" but it's almost always "five members of the board are my daddy's country club buddies and they personally vouched for me having done such a good job chatting them up at our gala luncheons so I got the job."
My uncles build and worked in the same transport company since the 80s, when my older uncle got his second heart attack, his brother thought he would be running the company, but my older uncle used some lawyer tricks and made the boss my cousin who was 24 at the time and working as a driver. My uncle couldn't stand it, plus my cousin acted real bad against him. so he left to this day both part of our families don't talk to each other, although I must say that this is mostly because of the aunts who. Aunt Halina even went that far that when our grandfather died, she didn't inform uncle Leon and his family, and if my mom didn't call him, they wouldn't be on the funeral. Then durning christmas last year durning the fest of Jordan my aunts started to beat each other up, and now they have to go to two different churchs. Nepotism always ends bad, just as making buissness with family or friends.
If only this were actually true lol. I guess like, just try to never google what percentage of CEOs come from households that made more than a million dollars a year?
It's not usually direct nepotism, though there are some pretty obviously high profile examples of cartoonish nepotism in the world today with people whose qualification is "my daddy is the boss" but it's almost always "five members of the board are my daddy's country club buddies and they personally vouched for me having done such a good job chatting them up at our gala luncheons so I got the job."
My uncles build and worked in the same transport company since the 80s, when my older uncle got his second heart attack, his brother thought he would be running the company, but my older uncle used some lawyer tricks and made the boss my cousin who was 24 at the time and working as a driver. My uncle couldn't stand it, plus my cousin acted real bad against him. so he left to this day both part of our families don't talk to each other, although I must say that this is mostly because of the aunts who. Aunt Halina even went that far that when our grandfather died, she didn't inform uncle Leon and his family, and if my mom didn't call him, they wouldn't be on the funeral. Then durning christmas last year durning the fest of Jordan my aunts started to beat each other up, and now they have to go to two different churchs. Nepotism always ends bad, just as making buissness with family or friends.
Can I just say that you have the best stories?
I don't really know what to say beyond that. They're just so unexpected and bonkers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I actually don't mind Custodes. Sure you can hate on the lore but one thing they offer is a totally different design space after Marines equivalents and Nobz and such, and that's something to consider.
They needed 5 wounds to give more design space. They should have more wounds than a grotesque anyway.
Another +1 to Karol -- I don't always agree with your takes on the game, man, but you sure keep it interesting on here. Long may you run, and keep the anecdotes coming, it's actually a good way to think things through.
SoB - I don't think they add much to the setting that can't be accomplished with IG, thematically, and their playerbase is just the worst.
Loyalist Astartes supplements - The faction just needs to be simplified. Minimize the differences between different loyalist Astartes chapters, have them all in one codex.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I actually don't mind Custodes. Sure you can hate on the lore but one thing they offer is a totally different design space after Marines equivalents and Nobz and such, and that's something to consider.
They needed 5 wounds to give more design space. They should have more wounds than a grotesque anyway.
Honestly the best way to increase design space is to start using the D8 but that's like sunlight to the vampires that defend the D6 here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And maybe W4 for Custodes. 5 shows they basically shrug off a Lascannon outside the Invul more than half the time and I don't really want that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I actually don't mind Custodes. Sure you can hate on the lore but one thing they offer is a totally different design space after Marines equivalents and Nobz and such, and that's something to consider.
They needed 5 wounds to give more design space. They should have more wounds than a grotesque anyway.
Honestly the best way to increase design space is to start using the D8 but that's like sunlight to the vampires that defend the D6 here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And maybe W4 for Custodes. 5 shows they basically shrug off a Lascannon outside the Invul more than half the time and I don't really want that.
That seems like a problem with the lascannon to me. Given the description of Custodes, they should completely outclass a Grotesque.
In a nutshell some of the Imperium factions and the Ynnari.
The Admech, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Inquisition have been included at the expense of the Imperial Guard( and Chaos and Xenos factions ). The Imperium - on a military scale - was already well represented with Marines, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle. These factions feel like they belong in a spinoff game that sits somewhere between Kill Team and 40K's Combat Patrol.
The main three Eldar factions are solid, but the Ynnari had no solid concept from day one. They don't even have a codex, even though Codex: Harlequins could do with the extra pages...
Tau: If they cant make them less castle'y and more flexible giving exciteing games that is not decided 2/3 (be it loss or victory), scrap em, they hurt buisness when new players get pitted against their interconnected and absurdly layered rules.
GSC: I LOOOVE the lore and feel of them... but they will allways feel like extras like killteam or some sort of mercenary supplement.
Death Watch: Sorry, there is plenty marines to go around, and feels alot like GSC issue to me.
Ynnari: I mean come on, they were created on a temporary overpowered false pretence in late 7th, sorry... I have no fond memorys playing against them, and many people no longer like playing em. Time to die.
Grey Knights: To me it feels like they have lost their idenity. Scrap em or rebuild em from the ground up.
Space Marine Sups - You get blue marines, or green, or even yellow. But they should all get the same weapons and gear.
Chaos sups - Same as above. Too many books for what is essentially different spells or niche units.
GSC - Get out, you were a bad idea at launch and still suck now.
GK/Custodes/Assasins/SoS/Inquisition - Scrap em. With the lone exception of Custodes, all of them are incapable of being on their own, and are thus over priced mostly worthless gak.
SamusDrake wrote: The Admech, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Inquisition have been included at the expense of...
The idea that what passes for the inquisition these days has been included at the expense of anyone but inquisition players is laughable. One of their units is a profile for a discontinued 30 year old rogue trader model and their only non-HQ model is a finecast chimp they released a decade ago.
I don't really want to have other people's toys (that they paid good money for I might add) taken away, but in a perfect 40k I'd remove a few.
(Chaos) Knights and LoW's in general from sub 3k points games. They belong in apoc not a skirmish game.
Harlequins/Custodes/possibly Grey knights: all gimmicky/niche factions that again should not be fighting small engagements/skirmishes.
Tau: not because I hate them or because they don't belong but they need a rework for their own good. Only being impact full in one phase is garbage design and with the new emphasis on some centre piece models getting the Ghaz wound cap per phase, it would be better for them too to be active in more than just the movement and shooting phase.
I think I am actually fine with custodes as a faction as they are probably the most interesting army GW has released... But the issue with them is that they really need the sisters to lock down psykers, the fact they can't take sisters of silence as troop choices etc is really strange.
A lot of people with really stupid reasoning for removing Custodes in this thread tbh.
Anyway:
Imperial/Chaos Knights: Probably the only factions I'd seriously consider removing from the game without being directly forced to. I love the former and think they're very cool, but the reality is the armies are unbalancable and warp the game around them. An army list that is enabled to easily include nothing but T8 24+ wound models with at worst 5++ in shooting can not be balanced. That objectives have been made much more important just makes it worst for them. I'm open to them being utilized in Admech or Chaos lists, but monofaction? It's bad for the game.
Ynnari: This faction is three characters lmao
Harlequins: I love them so much but I can't deny that they're easily the least explored army.
Lastly, probably Deathwatch. I don't think they are particularly compelling as a full army conceptually.
I wouldn't remove anything. The more armies the more rules the better. In my opinion 40k thrives on the richness and complexity of the factions, the more the better. Could they better balanced? Sure.
The only thing I'd move over to a different game format like apoc are knights.
I'd consolidate assassins and Inquisitors into a supplement codex “inquisition" that can be used by any imperium faction to ally in Inquisitors, which is how they should be used anyway. Expand the rules of the different ordos a bit an give them a few more models and you have some kickass souping options for most imperium factions.
I'd even leave all the space marine supplements in. Even though I dislike the frequency of sm releases like the next person does, I feel the different sm chapters have enough history and character to warrant at least a small supplement.
Personally I don't think it would make 40k improve as a game if you were to completely scrap anything, it would also hurt the lore.
People keep saying that the GSC should be rolled back into the Tyranids, as if it were some sort of 'natural state' for the Cult; something so obvious that to consider keeping them separate is just sheer lunacy.
I don't think GSC have been part of the Tyranid list since January 1992, White Dwarf issue 145. They've been their own thing longer than they've been a Tyranid thing.
Drop... I wouldn't drop 5 armies from 40k, I think they all and something. I would easily drop 5 codexes/books through consolidating them into a smaller number of books.
Grey Knights
Custodes
Deathwatch
Replaced by a single Codex covering the Inquisition/ Imperial Agents/ Talons of the Emperor. etc... Would also allow a single such unit to be included in other Imperium armies without breaking 'all army/detachment' rules, or allowing these armies to take units from other imperium codexes... -2 Book
Chaos/ Imperial Knight. I still really think that superheavies like this don't really have a place in 'regular' (e.g 1500pts-2000pts) sized games. Move to Apoc or a 'Onslaught' expansion. -1 Book
Ynarri/Harlequins consolidate into a single Aeldari splat book. As bonus points could include the other 'lesser' Aeldari variants (e.g. Corsairs, Exodites) -1 Book
Marine Splat Books. No issues with the C:SM + Supplement model. However, I really don't see the need for each and every 1st founding chapter to have their own splat book. I’m feeling generous so I can see how a splat book could be warranted to explore the intricacies of those chapters which are (almost) entirely codex complaint (so as not to make the core C:SM even bigger). So why not Supplements BA, DA, SW and a compendium for the other 1st founding chapters (UM, Sal, IF, IH, RG, WS). -5 books.
With the huge reduction in the number of books from culling the splat books, that make room for a C:CSM splat for the traitor legions, consolidating and expanding upon the differences between them for those legions not detailed separately (e.g. DG, TS). +1 Book
Net total -8 Codexes/ Books.
No faction ‘squatted’ or otherwise purged from the records.
SamusDrake wrote: The Admech, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Inquisition have been included at the expense of...
The idea that what passes for the inquisition these days has been included at the expense of anyone but inquisition players is laughable. One of their units is a profile for a discontinued 30 year old rogue trader model and their only non-HQ model is a finecast chimp they released a decade ago.
What is laughable is that they are wasting time on factions that do not belong in a game of troops'n'tanks and all out war. The Inquisition had a place back in the Rogue Trader days when the game was more open to interpretation; wars, battles, skimirshes and even a very slight dash of roleplay. But since 3rd edition( possibily 2nd ) 40K became a straight up war game.
But having a heart for Inquisition players, they seem a good fit for the Sisters of Battle and I would add them to their codex. In a similar fashion I'd add the sisters of silence to the custodes and the assassins to the Imperial Guard. Otherwise, they would make for a cracking Kill Team expansion or a Warhammer quest game. Maybe a revision of the old 54mm game, Inquisitor...
BrianDavion wrote: I look at the sales data, identify the 5 armies that are most constistantly underperforming and get rid of them, the pragmatic busniess decision. because that's what my boss and his shareholders are going to want.
Ah, we have discovered the one who always stands by himself at the office Xmas parties....got it!
no you've just discovered the one who actually took the time to answer what he would do rather then use this as a chance to bash his least favorite armies.
Except that us not what many have done if you take the time to read posts. Harlequins for example, is an army I love, but i can see where they don't exist as an actual army.
No, if you read the posts that is exactly what many of the replies are doing.
Slayer grinding his usual axe about Marine supplements, Knights being in two books, and "bloat".
Two people on this page alone trying to claim that the Imperial Guard don't fit in 40k...
A number of people picking the Knight books because in their opinion they don't fit with the current scale of the game.
You've let a whole bunch of people get their axes sharpened on your grindstone.
Super Ready, Brian and PenitentJake are the only ones to give sensible answers in here.
A.T. wrote: Still waiting on the official custodes/SoS combo codex...
It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Custardes book in 9th, whenever it crops up - and whether that means any additions for the SoS.
Exalted! Well said Dysartes! As well as Brian, PenitentJake, and Super Ready. This entire thread is just another example of people telling other people they shouldn't be able to play with their favorite toys. If that's your problem, just don't play with people who play with those toys. Problem solved.
honestly this has became a persistant problem on dakkadakka, to the point I worry about new comers who just found the hobby coming on here and getting immediatly dischouraged
Anyone seriously suggesting that Space Marines should be dropped, in toto, is just being salty.
SamusDrake wrote: What is laughable is that they are wasting time on factions that do not belong in a game of troops'n'tanks and all out war.
Careful what you say about who and who does not belong. A lot would argue that Custodes have no place on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Even more would say that Knights shouldn't be playable in 40k scale.
If we go by the premise that this entire thought experiment is just to increase profits, the people arguing that SM's should be cut would all be fired. Talking about shaking dead weight off the tree. Yeah, lets take the hottest selling thing off the market, and waste all the advertising and stuff we've spent the last 2 years building.
But having a heart for Inquisition players, they seem a good fit for the Sisters of Battle and I would add them to their codex. In a similar fashion I'd add the sisters of silence to the custodes and the assassins to the Imperial Guard. Otherwise, they would make for a cracking Kill Team expansion or a Warhammer quest game. Maybe a revision of the old 54mm game, Inquisitor...
I don't have heart for people that want to remove my army from their game to play their army who hasn't existed for a long time, and who GW doesn't seem to want to bring back. I don't think Custodes, SoB or DW player have any warm feelings to a single or two unit entry in a codex for some other army either.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If we go by the premise that this entire thought experiment is just to increase profits, the people arguing that SM's should be cut would all be fired. Talking about shaking dead weight off the tree. Yeah, lets take the hottest selling thing off the market, and waste all the advertising and stuff we've spent the last 2 years building.
BuT eRaDiCaToRs ArE sO pOwErFuL aNd SoMeThInG hAs To Be DoNe!!!!
But having a heart for Inquisition players, they seem a good fit for the Sisters of Battle and I would add them to their codex. In a similar fashion I'd add the sisters of silence to the custodes and the assassins to the Imperial Guard. Otherwise, they would make for a cracking Kill Team expansion or a Warhammer quest game. Maybe a revision of the old 54mm game, Inquisitor...
I don't have heart for people that want to remove my army from their game to play their army who hasn't existed for a long time, and who GW doesn't seem to want to bring back. I don't think Custodes, SoB or DW player have any warm feelings to a single or two unit entry in a codex for some other army either.
Missing the point karol seems to be a Hobby for you.
The sugestion was not to remove gk but rather reimplementing Inquisition propperly. As it stands gk are specialist muscle for Inquisition.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If we go by the premise that this entire thought experiment is just to increase profits, the people arguing that SM's should be cut would all be fired. Talking about shaking dead weight off the tree. Yeah, lets take the hottest selling thing off the market, and waste all the advertising and stuff we've spent the last 2 years building.
I just want less power armor overload. Getting rid of 5 power armor armies does that. Snowflake power armor adds little to the game, imo.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If we go by the premise that this entire thought experiment is just to increase profits.
That wasn't what OP said.
Also I want rid of Marine because they're over-exposed. By the fluff they're super rare and semi-mythical to most people, even many Imperial Guard regiments will never see ONE, let alone an entire army of them. Entire planets believe that they're literal angels. By how 40k plays you think they're more numerous than the Imperial Guard.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Anyone seriously suggesting that Space Marines should be dropped, in toto, is just being salty.
SamusDrake wrote: What is laughable is that they are wasting time on factions that do not belong in a game of troops'n'tanks and all out war.
Careful what you say about who and who does not belong. A lot would argue that Custodes have no place on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Even more would say that Knights shouldn't be playable in 40k scale.
With all due respect, we are in a thread asking which five armies we would drop from the game!
I also gave my reasoning as to why the Inquisition was redundant in modern 40K, but also provided suggestions as to where they would shine the most.
Personally, I agree that the Emperor's personal guard are not going to be wasted on front duty in distant star systems when they already have the Space Marines for that job. And while Knights are far more practical in 40K than Titans...they still seem a little too big for the game, and maybe not practical enough for smaller games. Being a Titanicus player, I've been tempted to treat myself to a small combat patrol of Armigers or even a single Knight, but the common advice has been "don't bother".
My own faction, Harlequins, has been mentioned many times on this list and while its annoying I still respect it, given the topic of the thread.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If we go by the premise that this entire thought experiment is just to increase profits, the people arguing that SM's should be cut would all be fired. Talking about shaking dead weight off the tree. Yeah, lets take the hottest selling thing off the market, and waste all the advertising and stuff we've spent the last 2 years building.
But that isn't what most of the posts in this thread are trying to do. Most of the posts are just venting opinions about factions the posters don't like, or that they feel are taking away valuable design space they would rather have spent on their factions. The most popular cut seems to be knights. Last I checked those were pretty big sellers. Few are basing their choices on what would be profitable, instead it's just a way to push their own personal biases. Lots of people don't like marines, so they go straight for them. This is just another excuse to complain about other people's armies.
But as far as I read there were also a lot of propositions were it was just rolling together armies to reduce the number of Codices/armies without really "killing of" the modellines and "toys" people want to play with. All the mentiones of "Imperial/Chaos Knights into one Codex" (and there where a lot) or "GSC into Tyranids", "IK into AdMech", "Custodes + SOS + Assassins into Imperial Agents" or "Inquisition into Grey Knights" don't really say "I want that GK players cannot play anymore *evillaugh*", but merely "In my personal view those two armies do not necessarily have to be separated to work out." Note that even if GK and Inquisition were one army, no one would keep you from playing a pure GK army.
On that topic, just because it was not mentioned so far: as much as I personally love them, DKOK has few enough stand alone stuff that it can be rolled into IG without much loss. And while we are at it, one might as well give Renegades and Heretics and Elysians the option to play there armies again by including them too. It would not be that hard to formulate their special flavor as Regimental traits, include a couple of regiment specific units and a list of "forbidden" ones.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If we go by the premise that this entire thought experiment is just to increase profits.
That wasn't what OP said.
Also I want rid of Marine because they're over-exposed. By the fluff they're super rare and semi-mythical to most people, even many Imperial Guard regiments will never see ONE, let alone an entire army of them. Entire planets believe that they're literal angels. By how 40k plays you think they're more numerous than the Imperial Guard.
Gee, it's almost like them being in starter sets and not requiring you to have huge chunks of models could be a selling point.
I always love it when discussions of toy soldiers lead to philosophical underpinnings; some hate this, but I think it is what makes games worth playing and other art worth consuming. Thanks also to those who participated in this angle of the larger thread- philosophical underpinnings cannot truly be examined without point/ counterpoint.
Before I wade into the GSC business, I'd also like to say that while I personally advocate for the Imperial Agents dex as a solution to the Inquisition, I think Lord Kat's suggestion of folding each Ordo into their Chamber Militant's Dex is a far better solution to the Inquisition problem than combining some Chambers into a common dex, which would be a disaster.
Okay, GSC time:
First and foremost, I see Kat's point and problem and there is a lot of validity to this opinion. I'm posting now, but the implications of this point of view are likely to stick with me long after this post and thread are forgotten. The 21st Century in particular, but to a lesser extent the 20th and even late 19th centuries have really advocated for healthier ways to depict women and women's issues in the arts. What's more, women are increasingly involved in the creation of these representations themselves.
I believe all of this is as it should be- in fact it should have happened several centuries earlier; in an ideal world, the dominance of patriarchal societies should never have occurred in the first place.
Now I diverge:
The GSC was the thing that made me a lifelong 40k player in the first place, and I started playing in '89. The 2nd ed Tyranid codex was bar none, my favourite until Witch Hunters. It was the re-release of the GSC at the tag end of 7th that drew me back to 40k after a 5 year hiatus, though attention to Sisters was instrumental in keeping me through 8th. It was Crusade that kept me in 9th, but that's another story.
Without the GSC breeding cycle, the army really is just an H.R. Giger knock-off; it's the breeding cycle that makes the army unique. And what's more, it isn't just unique enough to distinguish it from Giger- I would argue that it is unique in the gaming industry as a whole.
The GSC smashes the notion that this hobby is just a kids hobby. In other discussions of feminist theory that have come up on these boards from time to time, many have pointed out that in North America, art forms such as animation are seen as being primarily a medium for children; I would argue that there similar attitudes toward gaming, and games of all stripes. If you look at Anime, you'll see what I mean... And I'm not even talking about Hentai. G-Force, aka Battle of the Planets, my favourite cartoon as a 6-12 year old was actually a dumbed down version of a Japanese original, much like Power Rangers or Sailor Moon. The originals upon which these American knock-offs are based have varying degrees of philosophical and emotional depth in their originals which got lost in translation. It wasn't until Macross crossed the pond that North America got a taste of what a true grown up cartoon could look like, and Akira cemented the deal. Of course there were outliers- Heavy Metal (both the magazine and the movie(s)), Wizards and Fritz the Cat etc. Macross and Akira differed by being mature, but not adults-only.
BTW- It's no coincidence that Macross too had a huge influence on 40k via the Tau.
Kat's post makes me reconsider my early affection and enthusiasm for the GSC. It doesn't eliminate it, but it makes me think about how emotionally healthy or unhealthy it may be. Considering that 40k is a game which may be played by not only our sons, but our daughters, it is worth thinking about.
For me, the challenge has been to create the narrative that makes the army less problematic. Not all players will do this, of course; I was always closer to an understanding of feminist ideology than many of my male counterparts because my personal family dynamic was essentially a matriarchy, where the women were omnipresent, nurturing, intelligent and compassionate, while the men tended to be caustic, aggressive, mildly threatening and often absent (with a few notable exceptions: RIP Ron).
To respond to some of Kat's specifics: any form of mind control, really, is akin to the concept of rape, and in that sense, GSC is problematic, despite anything that I might include in my narratives to lessen the creep factor. However, that also puts a lot of other factions under a microscope. What makes the GSC particularly problematic is the way this mind control interacts with both sexuality and gender.
To be clear, humans become brood brothers/ hybrids in one of 3 ways:
1/ They are infected by a purestrain.
2/ They are born from a union with at least one infected parent.
3/ They are impregnated by someone who has been infected by a purestrain.
Number 1, from a sexual violence perspective, is not particular problematic; the violence is inter-species, and it crosses gender lines often enough that no particular line can truly be said to exist. Sure, it still plays with themes of control and powerlessness, but the notion of sexuality as a part of that process is severely backgrounded.
Number 2 is slightly more problematic, but not to the level of super-creep. It's problematic because it plays upon natural human fears about reproduction in general. Other famous works of art that examine similar themes would be the Greek myths regarding the birth of the Gods and their war with the Titans, in which we see children rebel against parents who would devour them- ironically to prevent rebellion and displacement. Another more contemporary example is Faith No More's Zombie Eaters. Weird title, I know, but the song is about how babies alter the thinking and behaviour of women- a process that begins in utero and continues for the entire lifespan of the child.
Both of these works, from a feminist perspective, are problematic as one is the underpinning of an entire patriarchal culture and the other, to my knowledge, was written exclusively by men. But as I mentioned earlier, I am closer to the women in my family than the men, to which I would add I have more friends and coworkers who are women than men. Many of these individuals (who of course shall remain nameless) have shared thoughts with me, before, during and after pregnancy about the control a child exerts upon them- things like feeling the pregnancy cravings are the child exerting its will, or feeling physical pain when they hear the baby cry.
There's a whole host of deeply rooted psychological factors related to childbirth for men and women, and the GSC hits you right in the brain stem by unpacking this baggage. It isn't always pleasant or comfortable.
Method 3, I think, is the one about which Lord Kat is likely most concerned (sorry to put words in your mouth Kat- please disagree if I've mistakenly interpreted your posts). I would say there is very good reason to be wary of this piece of the lore, and to tread carefully. I will try to do that, but I'm a dude, so my perspective is not really the one that matters here.
It is true, according to the lore, that if a male brood brother commits an act of rape against an uninitiated human woman, and that rape ends in a pregnancy, the woman becomes a member of the brood via the retro viral effects of interfacing with infected DNA.
It is also true that a human woman woman who is infected by a purestrain loses her ability to consent, which means that although subsequent sexual relations are less violent, they are no less rape. The inability to consent is something which is also common to Slaanesh, though Slaanesh is more fluid were gender is concerned; the Lord of Excess inhibits the ability to consent in men and women. The same can be said of GSC, though less accurately, due in part to the fact that the beings with whom men will partner under this malign influence are still, for the most part human, while in the case of Slaanesh, the copulations would occur with various daemonic entities. This reading, however, is also problematic, in that it offers a tacit acceptance of the harmful stereotype that men in general do not object to casual sex whenever the opportunity presents itself.
In my personal GSC fluff, brood brothers (male and female) always bring their potential uninitiated human mates to the cult for infection prior to their relations. From a Cult perspective, this makes sense because crime can lead to early detection of the cult, and it's especially dangerous because it's not the sexual act that converts one to the cult- it's the resulting pregnancy. My Cults also make an effort to recruit those who are already disenfranchised, and they favour operatives who come willingly after exposure to the dogma. A cult will not turn away brood brothers embraced by more violent or coercive means, but their leadership caste within the brood tends to consist of those who accept the tenets of the cult before receiving the curse.
Of course, what I do with my fluff doesn't make even my cult entirely problem free, nor does it make the army itself less problematic- especially since very few players are likely to think about these things as much as I have over the past 31 years.
To close, I want to tell you about one of the Cults I built during the absence of official rules; the Cult was built using Tim Huckleberry's Citadel Journal list.
Althea Chekobi was the daughter of a Commissar, and he had ensured that she was trained in combat at the progenium in the hopes that she would be accepted as a novitiate for the sisters. Prior to her visit from the Cannoness to welcome her into the Orders of the Sororitas, however, she is attacked by a purestrain and converted.
Due to her training, the psychic impulse to breed does not take root. This is noted by senior members of the Cult, who bring her before the Magus to reinforce the psychological conditioning. It is then that she reveals her training and identity to the Cult, and she convinces the Magus to consider that her martial prowess and knowledge of the fighting forces of the Imperium are far more useful to the Cult than her capacity as a breeder (please forgive my use of the term).
While the Magus is convinced, he wants approval from the Patriarch. I used Tim's rules for the Young Patriarch to represent this character- and he was unique in many ways. For example, he created a name- Ch'trl- to be more appealing and relatable to his brood. When the Magus brings Althea to him, Ch'trl decides to test her prowess.
Obviously, the alien toys with her, never revealing the true extent of its own might, but it is impressed with her ability to adapt to his rhythm and attack patterns, and he sees a tremendous potential. Ultimately, he agrees to use her as a militant- taking her under his alien wing and personally teaching her, among other things, to run like a genestealer.
Ch'trl and Althea are two of my favourite characters that I've created- and not just in 40k; in 31 years, I've played dozens of different pen and paper RPGS and hundreds of characters. But these two were always special.
And now I'm running a campaign that explores the growth of both a Genestealer Cult and a Cult of Slaanesh. Clearly, I have some psychological baggage of my own, and it is important to me to work these things out using all the tools at my disposal. It is my hope that someday, this campaign inspires me to write for Black Library, and I hope to touch upon some of this psychology when and if that happens. For what it is worth, I think the story would be better told by a woman, because as referenced several times in this post, I'm well aware of how problematic mansplaining is when it comes to issues like this one.
In the end, I decided to post anyway, because I wasn't sure that Kat's post would get the kind of response I think it deserves if I stayed silent.
To everyone else, I'm sorry to be off topic from OP- this issue could be a thread of it's own; again, I'm not sure how well such a thread would be received; there can be a lot of uncomfortable knee-jerk reactions from players who feel alienated by these types of discussions.
Last but not least (I promise!), I think it's worth pointing out that all of the psychological baggage surrounding both Slaanesh and GSC make the SoB the perfect faction to fight against these forces, and from a fluff perspective, as both have connections to witchery and Imperial citizens, this is true even when one chooses to ignore the deeper, underlying psychology.
Speaking of which... Have you ever considered the problematic nature of the use of the word "Witch" from a gendered perspective, given the actions of the real world Inquisition? Even without the GSC, the deeply rooted psychological perspectives regarding sexual violence are difficult to avoid once you are willing to acknowledge that they exist.
Peace all, and sorry to open a can of worms. Mods redact please if you fear psychological harm.
Speaking of which... Have you ever considered the problematic nature of the use of the word "Witch" from a gendered perspective, given the actions of the real world Inquisition? Even without the GSC, the deeply rooted psychological perspectives regarding sexual violence are difficult to avoid once you are willing to acknowledge that they exist.
No, because the term "witch" in 40k refers to both men and women and over the course of even "just" the 10,000 years that passed since the Horus Heresy it has come to mean something entirely different from any connotations we give to it now. I don't think a single person in the Imperium has ever sat and given a single thought as to the origin of the term witch. It would be like us trying to decipher the original connotations of a caveman grunt.
I don't think a single person in the Imperium has ever sat and given a single thought as to the origin of the term witch. It would be like us trying to decipher the original connotations of a caveman grunt.
Absolutely true, of course. My question was more about the psychological impact upon the players and real world humans, rather than the fictional entities that populate the constructed world of the game. And certainly the witches of 40k, as you point out, are equally likely to be men as women.
Your point is still valid, and I think the majority of players understand the 40k gender neutrality, though those non-players who happen to walk by a table just in time to hear a player yell "Burn these vile witches in the name of our Holy Emperor!" may not.
Unfortunately, in the real world, those persecuted as witches were predominantly women. Accusations of witchcraft were tools of the patriarchy, often used to punish a) matriarchal wise-women whose teachings had the capacity to undermine those of the church or b) women who resisted the sexual overtures of self-entitled men.
Fortunately, the term "Heretic" is more gender neutral in the real world and it is also an alternative which is equally accepted by many players.
I don't think a single person in the Imperium has ever sat and given a single thought as to the origin of the term witch. It would be like us trying to decipher the original connotations of a caveman grunt.
Absolutely true, of course. My question was more about the psychological impact upon the players and real world humans, rather than the fictional entities that populate the constructed world of the game. And certainly the witches of 40k, as you point out, are equally likely to be men as women.
Your point is still valid, and I think the majority of players understand the 40k gender neutrality, though those non-players who happen to walk by a table just in time to hear a player yell "Burn these vile witches in the name of our Holy Emperor!" may not.
Unfortunately, in the real world, those persecuted as witches were predominantly women. Accusations of witchcraft were tools of the patriarchy, often used to punish a) matriarchal wise-women whose teachings had the capacity to undermine those of the church or b) women who resisted the sexual overtures of self-entitled men.
Fortunately, the term "Heretic" is more gender neutral in the real world and it is also an alternative which is equally accepted by many players.
i think you underestimate just how stable most players are psychologically if you think that it would lead to issues.
Also games shops are way to rarely visited by non inducted into the hobby.
Thirdly i am unsure but i think i read somewhere that targets actually were quite varied in gender depending upon place and therefore society altough it was predominantly lower standing people.
bullyboy wrote: So the head of GW dies of a heart attack and his son with a real bad comb over comes into the board meeting and states that "you have to trim the fat. I'm yanking 5 armies from the 40K line...today, you guys figure it out". And just as he is leaving the board room, he turns and remarks "And no Bill, marine supplements count as a single choice, not one each....and I'm talking the ones from last year, not the ones coming out the next few months. get it done".
Who do you drop?
Me....
GSC Custodes
Harlequins (even though I love them)
Marine supplements (Ultras, RG, IF, Sallies, WS, IH)
And....probably between TSons and DG.... I'd have to go Tsons.
Grey Knights (we have too many super-super marines)
Necrons (they are just a mess of failed attempts to find them a place in fiction)
Custodes (See Grey Knights)
Inquisition/Agents (Roll them into AM or SoB and just jettison all this special faction of sub-factions crap)
Imperial Knight/Chaos Knights (again, roll them into the existing factions. Its a faction for less than a dozen model kits and almost never deploys on it own anyway)
I would clean design space around the notion of Chaos and Imperium, keeping as much as possible the models as legit or valid proxies. also, consolidating is too easy as answer, but at the same time models have to stay... I would consider them a flavour of another army (as the Guard differs from planet to planet).
- Demons - they still have AoS, and their flavour is already in Possessed, Warp Smith and demonic vehicle/equipment and CSM Demon Prince. They are also and hassle to properly reflect in terms of rules on the battlefield.
- Grey Knight or Custodes - more than one superhuman ++ have to go. Probably Custodes, or both.
- Ynnari Is almost too easy to say, so I will say Ynnari + Harlequins. Another faction difficult to implement that can be a flavour of another Elder faction.
- Adeptus Mechanicus. armies of Mars may be a flavour of Guard, and Titan Legion and big war machine may be a flavour of the Knight Codex (that at this point will have more units, troops and such).
- Genestealer Cult. I love them, but they can also work as flavour of Guard and I feel like they belong to smaller games like Necromunda and such.
- obviously, I would also consolidate anything together as much as possible: Inquisition for Grey Knight and Deathwatch, etc.etc Squatting SM supplements for example is a given.
If I had to eliminate model lines wholesale, I would eliminate...
Knights / Chaos Knights - They're nice models, but I really only like facing a single Super Heavy as a sort of centrepiece. So if eliminating the model line eliminated the "whole army" of super heavies... I'd do it.
Grey Knights / Custodes / Sisters of Silence - I feel like a "single source" for Imperial Power Armour troops is sufficient, and SoS feels like something that could reasonably have been folded into Sisters of Battle.
Ynari / Harlequins - I mean, it's basically one unit, a vehicle, and a handful of characters between them. That's not really an "army".
Daemons - At least, as a stand-alone army. Ported into the Chaos codex feels like an appropriate place for them, but again, I don't think I've ever played against a pure-Daemon army in 40k. They just feel weird as a stand-alone force.
What I'd like to see, is an Imperial Agents codex, Agents of Chaos codex, and a Xenos Auxiliaries codex. Each of those would hold the odds-and-ends of models that don't fit anywhere else.
Imperial Agents would have Custodes, Inquisition, Assassins, Grey Knights, and Super Heavies.
Agents of Chaos would have Chaos Super Heavies, Cypher and Fallen, and maybe rules for Renegades (like mutants, traitor guard, that sort of thing)
Xenos Auxiliaries could have things like Harlies, Ynari, Kroot and other "Mercenaries", and things like the Xenos beasts from Blackstone. Super Heavies, as well. I think there's some interesting design space to make Multi-Xenos auxiliaries that work like the different Imperial Agents. Kroot Snipers as sort-of assassins. Ancient monsters that the Orks or Drukhari have subjugated and use as Super Heavies. Other humanoid infantry that might hold a grudge against the Imperium / Chaos but would be willing to work for Orks, Aeldar, or Necrons.
I mean, it still really leaves Tyranids swinging in the wind. I have always found their "mindless devourer" fluff to be a distinctive limitation in terms of expanding them. Maybe come up with some Tyra-new fluff making the hive fleets a little more independent and personal? I know that's not something anyone really wants though.
hmm. I'd say try to bring things back to how they were at the end of 2nd ed. GSC are part of tyranids. Ditto for Harliquins and Eldar. grey knights, custodes, ect simple all fall under "agents of the imperium" and all that stuff. Ynnari was just a bad idea from the beginning.
jobalisk wrote: hmm. I'd say try to bring things back to how they were at the end of 2nd ed. GSC are part of tyranids. Ditto for Harliquins and Eldar. grey knights, custodes, ect simple all fall under "agents of the imperium" and all that stuff. Ynnari was just a bad idea from the beginning.
It's sort of semantics with GSC and Nids. The 2nd Ed Tyranid Codex had the genestealer army in it, but it was playable as a completely separate army. It was a 2fer in the same way that the 2nd ed Chaos book had the rules for Daemon armies in it.
As noted, that's old. I feel like they've declined since then. On the other hand, it's our only data point so they likely remain somewhat popular. On my other, other hand, they don't have lots of new shiny models to sell. Just a few things. So if we were trying to maximize cash and minimize effort, they get the boot as their sales are likely drained up.
Void__Dragon wrote: Geez, I thought people were being jerks by wanting to cut out Custodes, now I see people want to delete Daemons from the game? Ya'll are crazy.
Sadly we dont have here Peregrine to arguee how Tyranids should be deleted.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Anyone seriously suggesting that Space Marines should be dropped, in toto, is just being salty.
SamusDrake wrote: What is laughable is that they are wasting time on factions that do not belong in a game of troops'n'tanks and all out war.
Careful what you say about who and who does not belong. A lot would argue that Custodes have no place on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Even more would say that Knights shouldn't be playable in 40k scale.
To be fair, that is kind of a legitimate problem, on both ends. If we made a modern combat game and made factions there the way GW makes them, we'd have Codex Syrian Rebels, Codex PLA, Codex FBI, Codex IRGC, Codex US 1st Armored Division, Codex LAPD Swat, Codex Secret Service, Codex Russia, Codex Royal Navy, Codex Favela Gangs, Codex Marine Expeditionary Corps, Codex NATO Reaction Force, Codex Los Zetas, and expect these wildly mismatched factions to all to play against each other.
Dump eldar and tau, first benefit, no more broken, unfun garbage in the game, second, less duplication and clutter (we already have ynnari and dark eldar in first niche, both of which are frankly more interesting concept, just move good eldar bits to ynnari and call it a day). As for tau, leave ethereals and fireblades as HQs, then turn the book into 'alien mercenaries and auxiliaries army' which is again more interesting concept). The less LEGO suits, the better.
Third army? Let's squat squatmarines, the models are mostly ugly, and it will mean no more inane screeching, whining and conspiracy theories about sQaTtiNg (that still didn't materialized after what, 5 years?). Win-win
That leaves us with pretty nice rooster, but if we were to drop two more armies, I'd pick SW (BA and BT have 'melee SM' niche covered and wolfwolfwolves and wolfballerinas were a mistake) and DA (again, BT have 'knightly SM' niche covered and their tabards look much better than ridiculous pajamas DA sport). Move any good bits worth saving to other SM, done.
Sadly we dont have here Peregrine to arguee how Tyranids should be deleted.
Whatever happened to ol' Perry?
Eaten by Nids, obviously.
Peregrine Falcons are the fastest animals on Earth, capable of achieving 300+ km/h. They can do this, because their terminal velocity is quite high, and they effectively skydive onto their prey.
Problem is, sometimes they fail to realize their trajectory isn’t good, and they fail to adjust. In that case, failing to change course in time results in a 300 km/h argument with the ground.
Void__Dragon wrote: Geez, I thought people were being jerks by wanting to cut out Custodes, now I see people want to delete Daemons from the game? Ya'll are crazy.
For what its worth the Custodes look friggin super cool, are endorsed by Superman himself and quite frankly its too late to ditch them anyway as they have a proper codex and model range.
Like the Admech, Genestealer Cults and others, the Custard Creams are not going anywhere.
Void__Dragon wrote: Geez, I thought people were being jerks by wanting to cut out Custodes, now I see people want to delete Daemons from the game? Ya'll are crazy.
Sadly we dont have here Peregrine to arguee how Tyranids should be deleted.
For all the disagreements regarding Tyranids, Peregrine was still one of the best posters here.
Void__Dragon wrote: Geez, I thought people were being jerks by wanting to cut out Custodes, now I see people want to delete Daemons from the game? Ya'll are crazy.
Yeah Daemons, really? They are so rooted in the lore and the whole Chaos vs Imperium, id love to see them being rolled into Chaos Marine Codex and then rename it to Chaos Codex. But i dont know if thats crazy talk, i feel the daemons army feels quite lackluster in terms of unit choices and potency on its own. And have so for many years UNLESS you do some tzeentch buffstacking etc.
Void__Dragon wrote: Geez, I thought people were being jerks by wanting to cut out Custodes, now I see people want to delete Daemons from the game? Ya'll are crazy.
Sadly we dont have here Peregrine to arguee how Tyranids should be deleted.
For all the disagreements regarding Tyranids, Peregrine was still one of the best posters here.
Yeah, it had your same disregard for respecting other posters. Or opinions others than his own.
Five lines and supplements each count independently? So I am taking line as ending the model production and relegation of that thing to being in the fluff only which is quite a brutal sanction but ok.
Assuming the a fiscal business decision wasn't the way we're going (as then it'd be mainly but not entirely sales based), then...
Blood Angels - Super soldier vampies? Combat based? Nah. Their fluff is a little interesting but overall they're just not different enough from normal marines outside of their one gimmick - "we thirst blood". Not saying it's not cool, but with 20,000,000 other space marines out there and plenty of 'we walk that grey line already' we don't need space vampires; it's a cliche genre that's been done to death.
Iron Hands AND Salamanders - Similar to blood angels. They just don't have enough flavour to be distinct enough and have all the hoo-ha. Again, not saying they're not cool, not saying they've not been developed but loyal Space Marines need a trim and Wolves/DA/WS have enough distinction in the way they all play in addition to their fluff to keep them worthwhile separate things. With Ad Mech around, Iron Hands don't need to be and Salamanders are just even less relevant as their own line/faction - we use flamers and melta a lot, lets have more attention than 4 other factions combined.
Ideally i'd boot all supplement factions and just have them as different coloured guys from the one main book with perhaps some different rules available. The most they'd get would be some unique characters, a bit like 3rd ed or a bit more stripped back from where Crimson fists are presently. Ultramarines would need to stay as they're that vanilla base line.
Ynnari - I think the basic idea had merit but that the delivery was just poor. I think that the fluff informing Ynnari itself could have been built into Craftworld Eldar purely as a variation of their existing rules without being a different faction entirely. It's one i'd want to re-visit at a later date but suspend the models for now.
GSC or Tempestus - Too similar to other factions. They don't particularly add anything to the game play and take time/resources away from other factions, such as their own 'parent' factions (AM and Nids). Again, i'm not saying they don't have interesting fluff but if we had something for every bit of fluff...
Books i'd consolidate (honourary mention):
Thousand Sons, Chaos Daemons, Agents of Bile, All other supplement of chaos & Death Guard back into a Legions of Chaos book. None of them needed to be seperated to be expanded and some of them don't need the expansion they have (do DG really need a new character?). Ideally, there would be a section of the book titled 'Of Bastards and Broken things' or, better yet, Lost and Damned and this would have rules for using imperium units as traitors (ie, Imperial Guard, Ad-mech Knights, Inquisitors & Space Marine legions). Rules for mutants would be standard right next to cultists & CSM in the main part of the book.
Grey Knights, Death Watch, Inquisition, Knights and Assassins all into a single book. I do think that GK and DW should be able to operate as their own fighting armies in skirmishes but they shouldn't have the variety they do (and that's coming from me as a GK players). The GK and DW lines should be consolidated and toned up a little to be leaner as they'd have the support of the Inquisiton and allies. Knights should be in a similar slot - able to ally with other armies but the difference being they should only be allies and not their own fighting force.
Harlequins and Talons of the Emperor, similar to GK and DW, are fine to have their own stuff to fight as individual armies but they should all be that sort of specialised line that is perhaps based out of forgeworld and a kind of 'collectors army' situation whereby they're not often seen or made a fuss of but they're available, a bit more expensive and ready to collect and/or play with if you'd like. Made to order as a 40th birthday gift for Mum or Dad situation, like the fine china.
Damned cooler heads prevailing. I was all excited to whip out some poorly veiled metaphors. Oh well.
For what it’s worth, my responses aren’t vindictive. I’m approaching this from a “would you rather” perspective. *If* I had to cut 5 model lines, those are the ones I’d choose. Not out of spite towards players, just the lines I’d choose because the magic of the scenario is that you have to choose.
I *really* like the GK aesthetic, and I normally hate overly detailed models. But I would cut them because they feel like an incomplete faction that never became a fully fledged force.
If I were to apply an entirely arbitrary metric, it would be...
Are there at *least* 2 unique-to-that-Faction choices in each FOC slot? For GK, they have 2 not-exactly-unique troops. They have 1 fast attack choice, and it’s just the troops with jump packs. Their elites are just Troops with more guns, or veteran (troops) terminators. I think they have 1 unique Heavy Support choice in the Dread Knight.
Harlies? Do they even have more than one infantry unit?
Knights have what, 3 chassis altogether? Small, Medium, and Heavy Knights?
I think that the only Unique mode in the Deathwatch is the Corvus Blackstar? Add that to the Vanilla dex, give them rules to take Vets as Troops (as part of their chapter tactic?) and boom.
It’s Factions like that, that just feel incomplete. Like no matter what, you will just be a “lesser” version of a more complete mode line.
jobalisk wrote: hmm. I'd say try to bring things back to how they were at the end of 2nd ed. GSC are part of tyranids...
GSC were not part of the Tyranids at the end of 2nd Ed. The Genestealer Cult list was separate to the main Tyranid list.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: There are lots of ways to accomplish either or both of the societal infiltrators and/or Aliens Xenomorphs themes without having unfortunate messages.
You are literally the first person I've ever seen mention the idea that GSC has an "unfortunate message". I'd posit that this "unfortunate message" is something that virtually no one ever thinks about, let alone accepts as true.
Next you'll be trying to tell us that Slaanesh is "queer coded".
Harlies? Do they even have more than one infantry unit?
I'm hoping they include the Mime and Virtuoso for 9th edition. Personally I believe that the faction needs something...BIG. Most factions have something big and expensive to add to their collections as a center piece, but the most is a Voidweaver. A wraith-puppet-lord thingy would be appreciated Geedubs!
I will also fall off my chair laughing should the news come in that the first xenos codex of 2021 is for Harlequins.
Harlies? Do they even have more than one infantry unit?
I'm hoping they include the Mime and Virtuoso for 9th edition. Personally I believe that the faction needs something...BIG. Most factions have something big and expensive to add to their collections as a center piece, but the most is a Voidweaver. A wraith-puppet-lord thingy would be appreciated Geedubs!
I will also fall off my chair laughing should the news come in that the first xenos codex of 2021 is for Harlequins.
given they only got a WD update for PA I'd not be too suprised TBH
It's 99% gonna be Lelith Hesperax though, no...? What with the barbs in the hair and style of dagger.
So it's got to be a release for Dark El-
After battling and defeating Yvraine in the Crucibael during the Night of Revelations when Ynnead, the Aeldari god of the dead, partially awakened, Lelith has gone on to join forces with the Ynnari leader.
The Queen of Knives and her Wyches, along with allies from the craftworlds and Harlequin troupes, fight alongside the Ynnari.
grab a gardening tool, reforge it into a poleweapon of your wish, form a Saubannerzug and threathen to burn down someth erm .... wait, sorry missed a page, that was for if you need money from geneva...
No i have no recommendation to avoid this rage if it would happen...
Craftworld Eldar. They just don’t work for me, like, at all. They’ve barely evolved since Rogue Trader, and never quite play as portrayed in the background. They’re also an already dying race that’s hideously and laughably outnumbered.
I've played them since 4th and love them to bits, but I have to say I agree. The lore/rules discrepancy has been a constant source of disappointment. The one or two viable janky tournament-tier builds combined with the rest of the codex being utter garbage each edition really takes the fun out of playing the army.
Craftworld Eldar. They just don’t work for me, like, at all. They’ve barely evolved since Rogue Trader, and never quite play as portrayed in the background. They’re also an already dying race that’s hideously and laughably outnumbered.
I've played them since 4th and love them to bits, but I have to say I agree. The lore/rules discrepancy has been a constant source of disappointment. The one or two viable janky tournament-tier builds combined with the rest of the codex being utter garbage each edition really takes the fun out of playing the army.
That's more of an argument for an update than a drop. It's not like are not a popular army to build, just not a popular army to play. All this wonderful history and tech, and Necrons out range them in almost every category. It's shameful.
#1 Astra Militarum - adding these in the first place basically demystified the Space Marines. They basically fit the role of expendable NPCs that helped advance a storyline, rather than an actual potent force.
#2 Genestealer Cults - didn't really feel like a complete standalone army, incorporating parts into Codex: Tyranids, so they could be used as a certain force utilizing specific traits.
#3 Minor Imperium Factions - Adeptus Custodes, Inquisition, Knights, Assassins etc... These are great for background narrative, not so much for the game...
#4 Renegades and Heretics - a complete mess at the moment, so incorporating them into Codex: Chaos Space Marines, should work just fine.
#5 Not so much an army as a condensation: Remove all Supplements and place them into their original armies' Codex.
Bah! if anything, GW needs to ADD an additional and unique (Read: Non-anthropomorphic) army to vie against (besides Tyranids, and, Lord help us, Zoats). And then focus on giving them asymmetric rules to make them interesting. A truly alien life form.
Slayer6 wrote: #1 Astra Militarum - adding these in the first place basically demystified the Space Marines. They basically fit the role of expendable NPCs that helped advance a storyline, rather than an actual potent force.
I honestly don't see how, considering the Guard have been a part of the game for as long as the Marines have - first edition Rogue Trader. The same can also be said for Genestealer Cults - they were properly fleshed out in first edition, whereas Tyranids were a random "encounters" race that only got more detail in second edition.
Meanwhile Renegades and Heretics isn't even really a current army - they don't have a Codex - so dropping them feels like a cop-out...?
it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...
Not Online!!! wrote: it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...
Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.
Not Online!!! wrote: it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...
Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.
It's hypocrysie and behaviour that alot of the Big market weights pull.
Not Online!!! wrote: it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...
Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.
It's hypocrysie and behaviour that alot of the Big market weights pull.
Sadly, hypocrisy is a not legal cause of action. Jokes on GW, though, in some ways. Merely renaming factions is likely not good enough from a copyright perspective. But again, who really cares even now?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: 6 page and only one person wanted to remove Sisters of Battle.
I take this as a win, and thanks the new plastic models for that!!!
T3 power armor is at least a little different from T4 power armor.
Not Online!!! wrote: it's funny considering how much GW ripped off other IP's how corporate and protective they became to the point they lower and corporatise their own Factions etc...
Yeah, if anyone had actually cared about early GW, they would have been sued out of existence. But litigation is expensive.
It's hypocrysie and behaviour that alot of the Big market weights pull.
Sadly, hypocrisy is a not legal cause of action. Jokes on GW, though, in some ways. Merely renaming factions is likely not good enough from a copyright perspective. But again, who really cares even now?
Apparently not even gw. They seem to have gone back to "Space Marines" more, with less "Adeptus Astartes". Be interesting to see if the new Guard codex is actually called Imperial Guard instead of Astra Militarum. I'd insert that Clint Eastwood meme, but I can't seem to find it right now....
All SM chapters should be placed under the same codex. When you see the difference between the major chapters you realize that is just a paint schema, fluff, some doctrines over common vanilla rules, a few stratagems, as most of them are copy and paste from the vanilla SM codex, and 0-3 unique units. The proof that there is actually really a small difference between chapters is that when it comes that iron hands where the most cheese faction in the game, many SM players suddenly begin to proxy their ultramarines / Blood angels, etc... as iron hand and they were able to build the most competitive army just by proxying the paint scheme. Adding this point with the fact that there are many space marines chapters, it makes me feel the game to be "Space Marines against the world" instead of "Warhammer 40 K".
I think this is the first thing that I will try to squat and this will surpass the 5 armies required here. As I Need to pick 5 of them I will pick the ones that I believe has less special units:
Salamander
Iron Hands
White Scars
Raven Guard
Imperial Fists
But if I were not limited to 5 I would also add in the list all the rest (e.g. Ultramarines, Space wolfs, Blood angles, Dark Angels, etc...)
However, I think we can do more.
GK, DW, assassin, and Inquisitors should be placed in the same codex. Codex inquisition. Add here the option to add troops from Astra Militarum, sisters of battle, and Adeptus mechanicus. Then when building the army you should choose which Ordo is based on the army and depending on what excludes options. E.g. Ordo Malleus (won't include DW and SoB), Ordo Xeno (won't include GK and SoB), Ordo Hereticus (won't include GK and DW)
These 2 last ones will be a fairly thick book.
Custodes and sisters of silence shall we roll in another codex.
Imperial Knights and Adeptus Mechanicus in the same codex.
A codex called "heretics" which will contain heretics, Dark Mechanicum and Chaos knights.
GSC in my opinion needs its own codex and not be able to ally with Tyranids. In theory, when Tyranids comes they eat everybody including the GSC renegades so to put GSC and Tyranids in the same codex seems about wrong to me.
Inari and Harlequins, as mention in this thread, I would also put them all together in the same codex.
Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
My five picks would be the Chaos and Imperial Knights which should be Lords of War for the Adeptus Mechanicus and Chaos Space Marine respectively. The Ynnari should be rolled into the Harlequin and add some Corsair stuff to make a new Errant Aeldari faction. Deathwatch Marines should vanish and just become a sub-faction of vanilla Space Marines without need of their own codex. Chaos Demon should be absorbed by the Cult Chaos Marine faction like @dan2026 suggested (great idea btw). Blood Angels and Dark Angels could be rolled back as a standard subfaction of the Space Marines since they are almost identical to the vanilla one's. All inquisition stuff, including assassins should be rolled into Kill Team and only have a barebone datasheet for use in normal games if need be.
dan2026 wrote: The Deamons book as is makes no sense, in that it is basically four small armies that don't play well together.
The original premise of chaos was that the faction represented disorganised warbands and allies of convienence pull together under the command of a suitably intimidating warmaster, or in the case of just daemons the chaotic and dispirate forces of the warp that had poured through some crack in reality.
Hence 'chaos', rather than the colour-matched rigid and ordered forces of the loyalists.
dan2026 wrote: The Deamons book as is makes no sense, in that it is basically four small armies that don't play well together.
The original premise of chaos was that the faction represented disorganised warbands and allies of convienence pull together under the command of a suitably intimidating warmaster, or in the case of just daemons the chaotic and dispirate forces of the warp that had poured through some crack in reality.
Hence 'chaos', rather than the colour-matched rigid and ordered forces of the loyalists.
Uh... no. The first chaos lists were legion/chapter specific (black legion, world eaters and emperor's children), with god-specific demons for the WE and EC. Black legion could opt for any demons regardless of allegiance, but that was a specific rule just for them, because their original fluff was they jumped from god to god after things went badly.
The daemonic legions lists were even more constrained.
Chaos has been very rigid and color coded from the start.
The only exception was pure random (d100 and d1000 rolls) warbands that you could bring in some cases, that varied from really ridiculous to complete garbage, but those were dropped really fast.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
Oh gosh, this discussion again. The only person who had the legitimacy to copyright to the term "Space Marine" was the late U.S. astronaut, John Glenn.
Voss wrote: Uh... no. The first chaos lists were legion/chapter specific (black legion, world eaters and emperor's children), with god-specific demons for the WE and EC
I generally start with 2nd edition and epic when considering the structure of 40k armies - otherwise space marines are those guys with jetbikes and shuriken catapults being hunted down by the sisters of battle, their daemon-weapon wielding half-eldar inquisitor lord, and a squad of grey knight techmarines with jump packs.
As for 5 armies.
1) Fold marine factions into supplements - done
2) Fold sisters of silence into talons - being done
3) Fold inquisition into witch hunters - because emperor knows they aren't getting any help as it is
4) Fold chaos factions into supplements - only fair
5) A toss up between the minor xenos. Ynnari into harlequins perhaps since they are both eldar/DE connecting factions
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Space Marines just had everything of those consolidated into one book, leaving anything separate from the main Marine units to supplements.
And yet we still have people saying that they haven't gone far enough, and want the various Chapters reduced to simple paint jobs, let alone armies.
Y'all would have loved the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex, that removed any and all Legion abilities from our Chaos armies.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
....They did trademark those names. During the suit, the names "eldar", "Space marines", "Imperial Guard", and "Stormtroopers" came under dispute, and the court ruled that GW could not base a claim of IP theft on the third party seller using any of those terms.
So all of them got changed, and then trademarked in their new form.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Space Marines just had everything of those consolidated into one book, leaving anything separate from the main Marine units to supplements.
And yet we still have people saying that they haven't gone far enough, and want the various Chapters reduced to simple paint jobs, let alone armies.
Y'all would have loved the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex, that removed any and all Legion abilities from our Chaos armies.
Bear in mind that this thread is basically placing the people in the fictional dilemma to have to squat 5 armies of 40k. That in this case I would begin by squatting the space marines chapters with less flavor this doesn't mean that I would like this to happen.
At least for me, I think that the variety of factions is something great and I would like to happen to other factions, like craft world supplements, tau sept's, Tyranid fleets, etc...
Gadzilla666 wrote: Actually, I was talking about them changing names in an attempt to protect their own IPs. At this point I don't think anyone could successfully make a copyright claim on the term "space marines", much less something like the Guard.
I know. And yes, "space marines" would either be considered generic at this point, or be credited to the Heinlein estate. There's zero chance GW can get it. My point is that changing it to "Astra Militarum" doesn't protect their actual model lines much, because they did things like, you know, rip off Russian/Soviet uniforms that aren't copyrightable. Maybe they think they can trademark these names. Good luck there.
....They did trademark those names. During the suit, the names "eldar", "Space marines", "Imperial Guard", and "Stormtroopers" came under dispute, and the court ruled that GW could not base a claim of IP theft on the third party seller using any of those terms.
So all of them got changed, and then trademarked in their new form.
I guess that makes sense. But it still doesn't extend to the underlying concepts, which is pretty hollow, imo.
I’d squat imperium armies and put them all in a codex imperium.
Space marines would still have a codex and then a supplement only for the 8 loyalist chapters, any successors are then in the realm of home brew or counts as.
This probably covers more than 5 current individual armies. I wouldn’t squat and non imperial armies.
The Deamons book as is makes no sense, in that it is basically four small armies that don't play well together.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Chaos should be done like in AoS, a book for each GOD (Demons+Legion) and then a generic book for the rest of the legions (Word Bearers, Alpha, Black, Night Lords, etc...) and Renegades. The amount of people that play multi god armies is extremely small and if you want to do that you can take multiple detachments or having rules in the Chaos Marines book for using auxiliary or summoning demons and mixing marks and whatever.
The Chaos Gods have extremely different aesthetics and extremely different play stiles, so is extrange for somebody to like more than a couple of them. GW abandoned in AoS to try and shoehorn Demon players in using mixed god armies that look and play like ass, and instead gave each God a complete force of demons+mortals, without taking away the possibility of making mixed god armies, they even have a specific allegiance for that with Bel'akor.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Night Lords and Alpha Legion are very much aligned to Chaos. They just aren't aligned to a particular Ruinous Power.
The Night Lords have been portrayed as godless nihilists since 2nd edition. They don't worship any of the chaos gods, at most they'll use chaos as a weapon. And even then they look upon those that worship them as fools and weaklings. This has been stated in multiple codexes and other sources.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Night Lords and Alpha Legion are very much aligned to Chaos. They just aren't aligned to a particular Ruinous Power.
The Night Lords have been portrayed as godless nihilists since 2nd edition. They don't worship any of the chaos gods, at most they'll use chaos as a weapon. And even then they look upon those that worship them as fools and weaklings. This has been stated in multiple codexes and other sources.
Which is the point of my statement.
They're not, as some people like to pretend they are, just Imperial Marines with spikes. They've thrown their lot in with Chaos, they're committed to tearing down the Imperium as an act of petty vengeance and spite.
Doesn't mean they go on the weekend retreats or join the company softball team though.
And a renegades and heretics codex that would cover the likes of the night lords who aren’t really aligned to chaos? Maybe alpha legion in there?
Night Lords and Alpha Legion are very much aligned to Chaos. They just aren't aligned to a particular Ruinous Power.
The Night Lords have been portrayed as godless nihilists since 2nd edition. They don't worship any of the chaos gods, at most they'll use chaos as a weapon. And even then they look upon those that worship them as fools and weaklings. This has been stated in multiple codexes and other sources.
Which is the point of my statement.
They're not, as some people like to pretend they are, just Imperial Marines with spikes. They've thrown their lot in with Chaos, they're committed to tearing down the Imperium as an act of petty vengeance and spite.
Doesn't mean they go on the weekend retreats or join the company softball team though.
- Chaos Knights (no need for it's own codex)
- Custodes (move to legends/scenario/index only)
- Deathwatch (move to legends/scenario/index only)
- Ynnari
- Harlequins
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Space Marines just had everything of those consolidated into one book, leaving anything separate from the main Marine units to supplements.
And yet we still have people saying that they haven't gone far enough, and want the various Chapters reduced to simple paint jobs, let alone armies.
Y'all would have loved the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex, that removed any and all Legion abilities from our Chaos armies.
The real problem with the 4th Edition Codex was it was written pretty underpowered. Leave the rose tinted glasses at home when trying to refer to 3.5 please. The codex was awful for crunch no matter how much you scream "fluff".
(for myself)
