Now that Primaris are reigning supreme and getting more new units (hello heavy intecessors) should Firstborn get special rules of their own to make them still viable? Eg better leadership, special abilities (Tank Hunters etc).

What do you think?

No.

Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

There are a ton of reasons to use Firstborn units in the new codex. The only advantage Primaris have inherently is access to one good stratagem and one bad one.

Firstborns have special weapons, heavy weapons, storm shields on some units, lightning claws, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

It is really amusing to me how much of an oppression complex people have surrounding this when every other faction in the game just deals with

'oh, you liked the look/unit setup of the old unit better than the new one? Well uh...hope you bought enough of those when we sold them!"

gak doesn't get branded as a new thing that gets to still exist alongside our existing units, the existing units just get yeeted.

the_scotsman wrote:
There are a ton of reasons to use Firstborn units in the new codex. The only advantage Primaris have inherently is access to one good stratagem and one bad one.
Firstborns have special weapons, heavy weapons, storm shields on some units, lightning claws, etc.

This. If GW's plan is to squat Firstborn (and I do still believe it is), they really shot themselves in the foot by sticking too closely to the "no model, no rules" ethos.

Weird thread to start immediately after Firstborn just got new rules. (two wounds, command squads)

Sure, you could argue that 2 wounds is a datasheet thing and not a "new rule", but I think it's a bigger deal than just about any other new rule they could have gotten.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

People have been saying this for 3 years. Gw keeps disproving them. But please. Do hold your　breath waiting　for it.

 Corennus wrote:
Now that Primaris are reigning supreme and getting more new units (hello heavy intecessors) should Firstborn get special rules of their own to make them still viable? Eg better leadership, special abilities (Tank Hunters etc).

What do you think?

No.

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

People have been saying this for 3 years. Gw keeps disproving them.

By not releasing any new Firstborn kits, while incrementally moving their rules closer to viably being retired/folded into Primaris equivalents, and only releasing Primaris statlines for their most iconic characters?

I mean, you say 'GW keeps disproving them' and I hear 'GW hasn't done the final step yet', because nothing I've seen GW do over the course of 8th/9th suggests that they intend to keep Firstborn around in perpetuity.

 catbarf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

People have been saying this for 3 years. Gw keeps disproving them.

By not releasing any new Firstborn kits, while incrementally moving their rules closer to viably being retired/folded into Primaris equivalents, and only releasing Primaris statlines for their most iconic characters?

I mean, you say 'GW keeps disproving them' and I hear 'GW hasn't done the final step yet', because nothing I've seen GW do over the course of 8th/9th suggests that they intend to keep Firstborn around in perpetuity.

If by your definition "folding them in" means "Making them competitively superior to primaris in most ways" then I...guess?

the only primaris units I think are arguable for at this point are Eradicators, because obviously, and the ones that compete with firstborn scouts.

Assault Intercessors over Blood Claws, Death Company, Vanvets? Pff, no thanks.

Intercessors over Sternguard? 1 point of AP, or access to Transhuman Phys - I'm taking the AP.

Aggressors over Terminators? Deep strike and 2+/5++ or 2 more shots and T5/3+? I think the former every time.

Mobility firstborn HQs were king before, are still king, mobility options are always superior to +1A +1W where you can get them.

I think you're still reaching for Incursors and Infiltrators for troops, maybe Eliminators are still worth the points but IDK, and yeah erads are busted, everyone knows that erads are busted.

What else is Primaris and is better than firstborn equivalents? Not outriders. not the spacemario kart. Not the garbagebrick that is the repulsor.

 catbarf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

People have been saying this for 3 years. Gw keeps disproving them.

By not releasing any new Firstborn kits, while incrementally moving their rules closer to viably being retired/folded into Primaris equivalents, and only releasing Primaris statlines for their most iconic characters?

I mean, you say 'GW keeps disproving them' and I hear 'GW hasn't done the final step yet', because nothing I've seen GW do over the course of 8th/9th suggests that they intend to keep Firstborn around in perpetuity.

Very much agreed, even fluff wise it makes little sense for them to be around forever, post indomitus pretty much every chapter has had firstborns depleted for 100 years and now recruit/make primaris. Natural attrition will mean there are no firstborn before long.

With that in mind, I could see them moving to a veterans/chosen style unit that can be an ad-hoc band of the last surviving first born in the chapter as a soft squatting.

Some models are approaching 30 years old and are still in production. Many of the space marine sprues are under 6 years old. Old marines can stay around for a VERY long time yet.

It looks like there are strong opinions both ways on this, but I also believe firstborn will be going. I was surprised they've made it to this edition, I highly doubt they'll make it to the next edition.

If by your definition "folding them in" means "Making them competitively superior to primaris in most ways" then I...guess?

the only primaris units I think are arguable for at this point are Eradicators, because obviously, and the ones that compete with firstborn scouts.

Assault Intercessors over Blood Claws, Death Company, Vanvets? Pff, no thanks.

Intercessors over Sternguard? 1 point of AP, or access to Transhuman Phys - I'm taking the AP.

Aggressors over Terminators? Deep strike and 2+/5++ or 2 more shots and T5/3+? I think the former every time.

Mobility firstborn HQs were king before, are still king, mobility options are always superior to +1A +1W where you can get them.

I think you're still reaching for Incursors and Infiltrators for troops, maybe Eliminators are still worth the points but IDK, and yeah erads are busted, everyone knows that erads are busted.

What else is Primaris and is better than firstborn equivalents? Not outriders. not the spacemario kart. Not the garbagebrick that is the repulsor.

Gotta pump those old units up so they can sell the last of their stock before they get moved to legends! All joking aside I do think firstborn are going away but its going to be awhile and when they finally do I bet GW introduces a way to use the old models as whatever their primaris equivalent is.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I bet GW introduces a way to use the old models as whatever their primaris equivalent is.

Make the base 2mm thicker? When the day comes I have no qualms about people using old marines as primaris.

The Salt Mine wrote:

If by your definition "folding them in" means "Making them competitively superior to primaris in most ways" then I...guess?

the only primaris units I think are arguable for at this point are Eradicators, because obviously, and the ones that compete with firstborn scouts.

Assault Intercessors over Blood Claws, Death Company, Vanvets? Pff, no thanks.

Intercessors over Sternguard? 1 point of AP, or access to Transhuman Phys - I'm taking the AP.

Aggressors over Terminators? Deep strike and 2+/5++ or 2 more shots and T5/3+? I think the former every time.

Mobility firstborn HQs were king before, are still king, mobility options are always superior to +1A +1W where you can get them.

I think you're still reaching for Incursors and Infiltrators for troops, maybe Eliminators are still worth the points but IDK, and yeah erads are busted, everyone knows that erads are busted.

What else is Primaris and is better than firstborn equivalents? Not outriders. not the spacemario kart. Not the garbagebrick that is the repulsor.

Gotta pump those old units up so they can sell the last of their stock before they get moved to legends! All joking aside I do think firstborn are going away but its going to be awhile and when they finally do I bet GW introduces a way to use the old models as whatever their primaris equivalent is.

In all the "All marines should have 2w" threads, this came up pretty frequently: If standard marines had 2w, because of the fact that squads are far more customizable, there'd be no reasn to use the more fixed-loadout primaris.

While I think there's reason to argue some primaris units are legitimately bringing heat to the table, Eradicators, Bladeguard, Incursors, etc, there's a lot more that are now just..you can have this unit, or you can have this identical different unit who can take weapon options.

You can have this unit of Assault Intercessors, or you can have this unit of vanvets that can freely mix in Storm Shields for defense, Thunder Hammers for damage, Jump Packs for speed and deep strike, hand flamers for horde clearing, etc. The only thing the Intercessors have is the Troops battlefield role, which means relatively little nowadays.

My thought since Primaris first arrived was that eventually the Tactical Marines would be turned into Scouts, and then Scout models would be officially retired.

That being said, Legends was practically invented to ease the wailing and gnashing of teeth that will come when Tactical Marines are no longer supported. I would guess in 10th Edition Tactical Marines will be moved to Legends. You will still be able to use them in friendly games, but their rules will be set in stone and you won't be able to take them to the big official tournaments.

My faint hope is that GW will issue a new Intercessors kit that is the “Tactical Intercessors Squad.” Just because I think the tactical squad is too iconic to lose.

We did just get a firstborn terminator chappy release right?

Anyways, the squatting won't be something like 'boom! They're gone!' And it was never going to be. It will be a phased thing and GW may not explicitly state it but it's a pretty open thing so far. At any rate we have years to go, there are a lot of characters and options to primarisify.

 argonak wrote:
My faint hope is that GW will issue a new Intercessors kit that is the “Tactical Intercessors Squad.” Just because I think the tactical squad is too iconic to lose.

I definitely think something like this will happen.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

 argonak wrote:
My faint hope is that GW will issue a new Intercessors kit that is the “Tactical Intercessors Squad.” Just because I think the tactical squad is too iconic to lose.

I definitely think something like this will happen.

I personally think it will be the "folding in" that was mentioned earlier. There will be new Primaris units that mirror their firstborn bro's close enough you can use your old collection for the new units.

First born wise, what do we really have left that see play?

Scouts - Use as reavers. Heavy weapons gone. Sniper scouts are now Eliminators.
Tactical Bolter boys - Intercessors....I'm already doing this.
BP/CCW foot troops - Assault intercessors.
Bikes - Outriders. I'd wager the next codex sees more options available for them.
Attack bike - ATV

The big outstanding options are; Assault marines/jump pack boys, Devastators, and Special weapon guys (Meltas, flamers and plasma guns).
Plasma gun guys can already be used as Hellblasters.
Dollars to donuts we see a jump pack/grav pack assault intercessor squad at some point in the near to mid-term (2 years tops).
Then some manner of Primaris Devastator.....I'm not 100% sold on this ATM, but I could see hellblasters expanded at some point in the future to carry a heavy bolter variant, a missile launcher, a las-talon and one or both of the Eradicator's melta weapons. This would allow you to roll in your special and heavy weapon firstborn models without too much effort.

Terminators are the only one I have no ideas on.

I REALLY wish they would toss their "no model, no rules" philosophy though. They could have easily squatted first born already if they did.

To answer the OP, rather than whether or not real marines are getting squated, no absolutely not. The bump to 2W was already enough, and arguably too much compared to all the other armies atm. If anything 2W did more for internal than external balance.

Considering that GW is very cognizant of nostalgia (hence things like GSC and Necromunda) I sincerely doubt that they will shelve firstborn marines for a very long time. Those kits are selling almost as well as Primaris.

My opinion on the matter is that GW is trying to make their "intro" army have an easy to build component. If you have noticed many of the new Primaris kits are easy to build. I surmise that Primaris marines, with their distinct lack of options, especially when compared to new kits like SoB Battle Sisters (which has ALL THE OPTIONS) are intended to be the introductory units to the game. As such they will not including anything that requires you to buy X or Y box in order to field all the options in the codex (looking at you devastators and retributors) and its simply a buy and build option. Firstborn are notorious for this kind of stuff, especially with grav, and it strikes me as the more "advanced" option when it comes to fielding space marines. GW has been really trying (smartly) to get new blood in the game and this is a step toward that.

TLDR: Primaris are designed for new players.

the_scotsman wrote:
There are a ton of reasons to use Firstborn units in the new codex. The only advantage Primaris have inherently is access to one good stratagem and one bad one.

Firstborns have special weapons, heavy weapons, storm shields on some units, lightning claws, etc.

Honestly I can't wait for my play group to hop on 9th so I can play my old marines with the new rules.

They just got 2 wounds. What else would you give them?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
We did just get a firstborn terminator chappy release right?

Terminators are far removed from what most would consider "First Born Marines", and you know that.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Anyways, the squatting won't be something like 'boom! They're gone!' And it was never going to be. It will be a phased thing and GW may not explicitly state it but it's a pretty open thing so far. At any rate we have years to go, there are a lot of characters and options to primarisify.

People keep saying "They haven't done it yet!" as if it's proof that they're never going to do it.

As I've been saying since the W2 thing was first announced, you cannot remove the iconic Space Marine as we know it from 40K overnight, or even over the course of one edition. This is a very long term thing that will be done over multiple Codices. It might be the next Marine one, or perhaps the one after that. But it will happen.

Bumping their rules up is just the next step in this process. It makes them less distinct from Primaris, so their eventual removal won't be as a shock to the army.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Terminators are the only one I have no ideas on.

I think they'll keep Terminators. Ditto for the Land Raider.

Quasistellar wrote:
Weird thread to start immediately after Firstborn just got new rules. (two wounds, command squads)

Sure, you could argue that 2 wounds is a datasheet thing and not a "new rule", but I think it's a bigger deal than just about any other new rule they could have gotten.

First Born had command squads before too. And no, Firstborn don't need new rules, and yes First Born are getting squatted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


As I've been saying since the W2 thing was first announced, you cannot remove the iconic Space Marine as we know it from 40K overnight, or even over the course of one edition. This is a very long term thing that will be done over multiple Codices. It might be the next Marine one, or perhaps the one after that. But it will happen.

Bumping their rules up is just the next step in this process. It makes them less distinct from Primaris, so their eventual removal won't be as a shock to the army.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Terminators are the only one I have no ideas on.

I think they'll keep Terminators. Ditto for the Land Raider.

They'll create Primaris Terminators before they keep Firstborn Terminators around. I mean fluff wise, why would you make a first born and age them through to Terminaotrs when you can make Primaris? There are a number of things they need to make for/out of Primaris before they can fully squat Firstborn, plus they need to sell off enough of the backstock to pay for melting down the unsold stuff into Primaris. They need to make a fight/jump unit, they need Primaris Drop Pods. They need to update/replace a number of the non-Big Four Chapters special characters into Primaris. The "Face of" every chapter needs to be Primaris before they can squat old marines. That means Shrike/Calgar/Tiggy/Mephy who already have, and that means Dante, Azrael, Logan, Vulkan Hestan, etc etc etc. who either need to go Primaris, or get added to/replaced by a Primaris designed to become said "face of the franchise" like potentially Tor Garadon, Adrax Agatone, etc.

Firstborn are amazing right now. Oldmarines armies can be top tier, with multiple choices, without being OP. Those armies are a lot of fun to play with and against, unless they go against primaris of course.

If anything, I'd relegate primaris to open/narrative play like orks goffs rockers, where they should belong. Or maybe let them play some sort of revised version of 30k with only primaris dudes.

Breton wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Weird thread to start immediately after Firstborn just got new rules. (two wounds, command squads)

Sure, you could argue that 2 wounds is a datasheet thing and not a "new rule", but I think it's a bigger deal than just about any other new rule they could have gotten.

First Born had command squads before too. And no, Firstborn don't need new rules, and yes First Born are getting squatted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


As I've been saying since the W2 thing was first announced, you cannot remove the iconic Space Marine as we know it from 40K overnight, or even over the course of one edition. This is a very long term thing that will be done over multiple Codices. It might be the next Marine one, or perhaps the one after that. But it will happen.

Bumping their rules up is just the next step in this process. It makes them less distinct from Primaris, so their eventual removal won't be as a shock to the army.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Terminators are the only one I have no ideas on.

I think they'll keep Terminators. Ditto for the Land Raider.

They'll create Primaris Terminators before they keep Firstborn Terminators around. I mean fluff wise, why would you make a first born and age them through to Terminaotrs when you can make Primaris? There are a number of things they need to make for/out of Primaris before they can fully squat Firstborn, plus they need to sell off enough of the backstock to pay for melting down the unsold stuff into Primaris. They need to make a fight/jump unit, they need Primaris Drop Pods. They need to update/replace a number of the non-Big Four Chapters special characters into Primaris. The "Face of" every chapter needs to be Primaris before they can squat old marines. That means Shrike/Calgar/Tiggy/Mephy who already have, and that means Dante, Azrael, Logan, Vulkan Hestan, etc etc etc. who either need to go Primaris, or get added to/replaced by a Primaris designed to become said "face of the franchise" like potentially Tor Garadon, Adrax Agatone, etc.

you're making some pretty definative statements, got a line on the inside?

I think in 10th Ed codex there will be only primaris. Firstborne will be consigned to chapter approved indexes perpetually so they will always be supported.

Hopefully at that point they will get veteran bonuses

I shan't hold my breath about firstborn marines getting squatted. During 8th everyone said they wouldn't be in SM codex 2.0. Then they said they won't be in 9th. Now apparently they won't be in 10th. Maybe. Maybe not.

All I know is that if GW do squat them I won't be replacing my entire army with Primaris. I'll either just use legends rules or retire them and focus on my other army.

Whilst the abysmally executed primaris fluff does a lot to feed the doomsaying and make playing 40k feel bleak, the “The most popular line is going to be squatted, any day now! You’ll see!” Conspiracy theory never held any credible weight and has been getting more ridiculous ever since.

More likely is that in 10th all marines get an extra attack and they stop pretending having extra genes rolled out keeps you from carrying old guns or wearing non-Mark 10 armour or getting in certain vehicles.

Conversely, I do fully expect them to do a “veteran company wave” of primaris the way they did for their scout wave, resulting in veteran intercessors being more cleanly defined from a no model no rules perspective and a more direct terminator equivalent than gravis (which is more like toned down centurion armour). I’ve expected this for a while, and bladeguard being painted in deathwing colours has made me even more convinced because releasing power armoured primaris deathwing due to lack of terminator models then a year later releasing terminators that could have kept the thematics intact if they hadn’t been impatient is the precise wavelength of predictable incompetence GW tend to work on when their lore and game departments scramble to explain new models.

Breton wrote:
I mean fluff wise, why would you make a first born and age them through to Terminaotrs when you can make Primaris?

The fluff is arbitrary. They can do whatever they want with it. They can say that recent adaptations allows for Primaris Marines to interface successfully with Terminator armour, allowing the highly experienced Veteran Primaris Marines to finally take their place among the storied heroes of the Adeptus Astartes' collective first companies.

Breton wrote:
There are a number of things they need to make for/out of Primaris before they can fully squat Firstborn, plus they need to sell off enough of the backstock to pay for melting down the unsold stuff into Primaris.

That's why First Born are still around, to sell that stock.

Breton wrote:
They need to make a fight/jump unit...

No they don't. That's what people want them to do, but they don't need to.

Breton wrote:
... they need Primaris Drop Pods.

Something tells me that a boring conical box that sits around and does virtually nothing and isn't appealing to customers because it sits there on the table and does nothing isn't something GW really wants to invest in a second time.

"Thanks to recent adaptations refined by Arch-Magos Cawl and his cabal of Tech-Priests, the Adeptus Astartes has been successful in interfacing Mk.X power armour with existing patterns of Drop Pods."

See how easy that was?

The fluff is arbitrary. Stop acting like the fluff is a roadblock to GW changing anything.

Breton wrote:
They need to update/replace a number of the non-Big Four Chapters special characters into Primaris.

No they don't. Legends!

Breton wrote:
The "Face f" every chapter needs to be Primaris before they can squat old marines. That means Shrike/Calgar/Tiggy/Mephy who already have, and that means Dante, Azrael, Logan, Vulkan Hestan, etc etc etc. who either need to go Primaris, or get added to/replaced by a Primaris designed to become said "face of the franchise" like potentially Tor Garadon, Adrax Agatone, etc.

Or they just kill them off in the fluff and have someone take their place. Happened with the Raven Guard and their Chapter Master.

And Primaris are the face of the franchise. They have been since 8th dropped. There's no danger of confusion with the old stuff.

changemod wrote:
Whilst the abysmally executed primaris fluff does a lot to feed the doomsaying and make playing 40k feel bleak, the “The most popular line is going to be squatted, any day now! You’ll see!” Conspiracy theory never held any credible weight and has been getting more ridiculous ever since.

It's not a conspiracy theory, and if you paid any attention to what people are saying in this thread you'd see that no one is saying "Any day now! You’ll see!".

In fact most of us are saying it's a slow process, and a measured and deliberate one, for reasons that I'm not going to bother to repeat. Just go read the thread.

There is also a another big reason why this is going to happen eventually. GW can't copyright space marine but they can copy right primaris marine.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

changemod wrote:
Whilst the abysmally executed primaris fluff does a lot to feed the doomsaying and make playing 40k feel bleak, the “The most popular line is going to be squatted, any day now! You’ll see!” Conspiracy theory never held any credible weight and has been getting more ridiculous ever since.

It's not a conspiracy theory, and if you paid any attention to what people are saying in this thread you'd see that no one is saying "Any day now! You’ll see!".

In fact most of us are saying it's a slow process, and a measured and deliberate one, for reasons that I'm not going to bother to repeat. Just go read the thread.

You’ve consistently been one of the worst voices for this, terribly sorry if you think I need to tweak the tone of my mockery of a long running and exhausting conspiracy theory.

Again, they’re moving more in the direction of minimising the difference, probably in part because they’ve realised having an extra adrenaline gland doesn’t disqualify you from holding a missile launcher and riding in a land raider.

changemod wrote:
You’ve consistently been one of the worst voices for this, terribly sorry if you think I need to tweak the tone of my mockery of a long running and exhausting conspiracy theory.

Again, they’re moving more in the direction of minimising the difference, probably in part because they’ve realised having an extra adrenaline gland doesn’t disqualify you from holding a missile launcher and riding in a land raider.

"Worse voices". Cute.

Of course they're minimising the differences for them. That's part of the process.

And stop calling it a "conspiracy theory".

It really does seem like GW is handling the transition well (even if I think they've released too many Primaris).

Once they fully get rid of firstborn marines (all models go away eventually), then they can easily be used as primaris equivalents. There will be some exceptions, of course. But right now you still get great rules.

If by your definition "folding them in" means "Making them competitively superior to primaris in most ways" then I...guess?

the only primaris units I think are arguable for at this point are Eradicators, because obviously, and the ones that compete with firstborn scouts.

Assault Intercessors over Blood Claws, Death Company, Vanvets? Pff, no thanks.

Intercessors over Sternguard? 1 point of AP, or access to Transhuman Phys - I'm taking the AP.

Aggressors over Terminators? Deep strike and 2+/5++ or 2 more shots and T5/3+? I think the former every time.

Mobility firstborn HQs were king before, are still king, mobility options are always superior to +1A +1W where you can get them.

I think you're still reaching for Incursors and Infiltrators for troops, maybe Eliminators are still worth the points but IDK, and yeah erads are busted, everyone knows that erads are busted.

What else is Primaris and is better than firstborn equivalents? Not outriders. not the spacemario kart. Not the garbagebrick that is the repulsor.

Nothing you said here makes any sense imo. Your ask what Primaris units are better than their FB equivalents, but you didn't actually compare the equivalents ...

Why would I take Intercessors over Sternguard? When is that ever an either/or choice, and when would that question realistically even come up? They do totally different things in completely different slots.

And comparing Termies to Aggressors? They are also not equivalents ... and if they DID actually compare favorably ... where are all the Terminator armies?

I'll give you this - particularly with the loss of "fly" the Primaris vehicles are struggling, but that's also marine vehicles in general ....

I think, as everyone else has pretty much already mentioned - the writing is on the wall for old marines. Someone mentioned that they "just got command squads", but that's not new and, IMO, giving them 2 wounds was more about getting CSM closer to par than it was about Old Marines sticking around.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

changemod wrote:
You’ve consistently been one of the worst voices for this, terribly sorry if you think I need to tweak the tone of my mockery of a long running and exhausting conspiracy theory.

Again, they’re moving more in the direction of minimising the difference, probably in part because they’ve realised having an extra adrenaline gland doesn’t disqualify you from holding a missile launcher and riding in a land raider.

"Worse voices". Cute.

Of course they're minimising the differences for them. That's part of the process.

And stop calling it a "conspiracy theory".

When you stop holding an elaborate theory for years, trying to explain how every development supports it despite it being against every public statement and common sense regarding profit motivation and their “models first” studio process, I’ll stop calling it a conspiracy theory.

Or if you wanna flip it, put it this way: When I stop sincerely considering it to be a conspiracy theory I will stop calling it what, from my perspective and I’m not sure why you’re struggling with that, is the most appropriate thing to call it.

And no, they aren’t giving space marines two wounds as part of a dastardly plot to somehow magically make people not care when they squat devastators and assault marines.

changemod wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

changemod wrote:
You’ve consistently been one of the worst voices for this, terribly sorry if you think I need to tweak the tone of my mockery of a long running and exhausting conspiracy theory.

Again, they’re moving more in the direction of minimising the difference, probably in part because they’ve realised having an extra adrenaline gland doesn’t disqualify you from holding a missile launcher and riding in a land raider.

"Worse voices". Cute.

Of course they're minimising the differences for them. That's part of the process.

And stop calling it a "conspiracy theory".

When you stop holding an elaborate theory for years, trying to explain how every development supports it despite it being against every public statement and common sense regarding profit motivation and their “models first” studio process, I’ll stop calling it a conspiracy theory.

Or if you wanna flip it, put it this way: When I stop sincerely considering it to be a conspiracy theory I will stop calling it what, from my perspective and I’m not sure why you’re struggling with that, is the most appropriate thing to call it.

And no, they aren’t giving space marines two wounds as part of a dastardly plot to somehow magically make people not care when they squat devastators and assault marines.

Your inability to see that Tactical Marines are going to eventually be moved to Legends does not mean everyone else that understands that is a conspiracy theorist. It will happen, and, like most people have repeated over and over, it will take some time(personally, I think they will be moved to Legends at the start of 10th Edition). They are releasing more and more Primaris kits that emulate the function of existing "first born" marines. They are bringing the stats of "first born" marines inline with Primaris. Just like H.B.M.C. has said(and probably others) the more similar the two marine types are the easier it will be to remove one from the game. You also keep going on about how it is about profits and such. Primaris Marines are the marines that are making them money at this point. Tactical Marines are old news. New players are not buying Tactical Marines in the same numbers that they are buying Primaris Marines.

This is all coming from someone who thinks the Primaris lore is atrocious, and who just started building and painting an all "first born" army during the pandemic. Just because I prefer the old style marines more doesn't mean that I cannot get to grips with the fact that they are going to be removed from the game at some point.

BrianDavion wrote:


you're making some pretty definative statements, got a line on the inside?

. Well I e got old codexes with command squads. As for the rest it’s logic.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Your inability to see that Tactical Marines are going to eventually be moved to Legends does not mean everyone else that understands that is a conspiracy theorist.

You realise it’s this kind of tone that makes you sound off, right?

I’m isolating this because it really should be clear what the problem is. You’ve pieced together what you think is going to happen, then you phrase it in the most exaggeratively objective tone possible and then go to lengths to come up with reasons counterevidence actually supports your point.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They just got 2 wounds. What else would you give them?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
We did just get a firstborn terminator chappy release right?

Terminators are far removed from what most would consider "First Born Marines", and you know that.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Anyways, the squatting won't be something like 'boom! They're gone!' And it was never going to be. It will be a phased thing and GW may not explicitly state it but it's a pretty open thing so far. At any rate we have years to go, there are a lot of characters and options to primarisify.

People keep saying "They haven't done it yet!" as if it's proof that they're never going to do it.

As I've been saying since the W2 thing was first announced, you cannot remove the iconic Space Marine as we know it from 40K overnight, or even over the course of one edition. This is a very long term thing that will be done over multiple Codices. It might be the next Marine one, or perhaps the one after that. But it will happen.

Bumping their rules up is just the next step in this process. It makes them less distinct from Primaris, so their eventual removal won't be as a shock to the army.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Terminators are the only one I have no ideas on.

I think they'll keep Terminators. Ditto for the Land Raider.

I know terminators aren't iconic firstborn but the point is that it is a new marine model that is NOT primaris. As for the rest we are on the same page; I am saying the firstborn will be phased out slowly over a long period rather than suddenly cut. We agree on that.

changemod wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Your inability to see that Tactical Marines are going to eventually be moved to Legends does not mean everyone else that understands that is a conspiracy theorist.

You realise it’s this kind of tone that makes you sound off, right?

I’m isolating this because it really should be clear what the problem is. You’ve pieced together what you think is going to happen, then you phrase it in the most exaggeratively objective tone possible and then go to lengths to come up with reasons counterevidence actually supports your point.

Do you believe they will continue to produce first born kits forever? Do you forsee the sprues or kits being updated? How do you propose they continue to expand primaris alongside what is essentially a competing model line in the same book?

Business sense says they've recouped the costs and then some on first born, they can't sell them as easily now, so cut them out and push the new range which has some sales cannibalised by existing models they could do with not producing.

Surely we as a community won’t tolerate first born and primaris duel running forever. I think most people accept it’s a big change and it would be unfair for GW to retire 1000’s of Collected armies At the drop of a codex. But at some point it’s going to be in acceptable. SM have always had the biggest range of models but they are more than double the size of other armies choices if not triple

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

Your inability to see that Tactical Marines are going to eventually be moved to Legends . . .

Prove it.

Here's my thinking.

1. Release a brand-new Space Marine line with new unit designs, new sculpts, and stats that are The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm), but conceptually distinct and can augment current armies.

2. Flesh out this new Space Marine line such that it has equivalents or role-equivalents to everything in the old line that intends to be carried forward, while releasing no new units whatsoever for the old line. This is an ongoing process, through #5.

3. Advance all the well-known named characters to be part of this new Marine concept, with no continued rules support for their equivalents in the old line.

4. Upgrade the models in the old line to now have The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm) stats, narrowing the rules gap between the two. The difference, rules-wise, now comes down to equipment and organization.

(You Are Here)

5. Gradually increase the number of weapon options available to the new Marine line, providing some approximation of the flexibility of the old Marine line, as well as corresponding counterparts. At this point, fielding old Marines as new Marines becomes a viable option.

6. Release a new codex that only contains the new Marines. Release rules for the old Marines as non-tournament-legal Legends. Provide an official guide for how old Marines can be counted as new Marines for tournament purposes- at this point most units have direct equivalents, some can be shuffled around (maybe pluck the heavy weapons out to become their own squad), and only a few have no new counterparts.

Grognards can continue to play with their old units using the Legends rules, tournament players have official sanction to counts-as the new stuff, and new players have no reason to even look at the old line- which can then be gracefully phased out of production.

This has been my speculation since early in 8th and I'm sticking to it. I don't think it is anywhere near the level of 'conspiracy theory'. There are only so many ways to interpret the flagship faction suddenly getting zero releases overnight while its offshoot gets more attention than any other faction in the game.

Primaris have every indication of being a replacement for Firstborn (even down to the fluff), not a supplement- and GW has never, ever had a history of keeping around product lines that they've replaced. To think that this is a break from that history seems like a much less reasonable assumption than to think that at some point, Firstborn are going to be phased out.

 catbarf wrote:
Here's my thinking.

1. Release a brand-new Space Marine line with new unit designs, new sculpts, and stats that are The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm), but conceptually distinct and can augment current armies.

2. Flesh out this new Space Marine line such that it has equivalents or role-equivalents to everything in the old line that intends to be carried forward, while releasing no new units whatsoever for the old line. This is an ongoing process, through #5.

3. Advance all the well-known named characters to be part of this new Marine concept, with no continued rules support for their equivalents in the old line.

4. Upgrade the models in the old line to now have The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm) stats, narrowing the rules gap between the two. The difference, rules-wise, now comes down to equipment and organization.

(You Are Here)

5. Gradually increase the number of weapon options available to the new Marine line, providing some approximation of the flexibility of the old Marine line, as well as corresponding counterparts. At this point, fielding old Marines as new Marines becomes a viable option.

6. Release a new codex that only contains the new Marines. Release rules for the old Marines as non-tournament-legal Legends. Provide an official guide for how old Marines can be counted as new Marines for tournament purposes- at this point most units have direct equivalents, some can be shuffled around (maybe pluck the heavy weapons out to become their own squad), and only a few have no new counterparts.

Grognards can continue to play with their old units using the Legends rules, tournament players have official sanction to counts-as the new stuff, and new players have no reason to even look at the old line- which can then be gracefully phased out of production.

This has been my speculation since early in 8th and I'm sticking to it. I don't think it is anywhere near the level of 'conspiracy theory'. There are only so many ways to interpret the flagship faction suddenly getting zero releases overnight while its offshoot gets more attention than any other faction in the game.

Primaris have every indication of being a replacement for Firstborn (even down to the fluff), not a supplement- and GW has never, ever had a history of keeping around product lines that they've replaced. To think that this is a break from that history seems like a much less reasonable assumption than to think that at some point, Firstborn are going to be phased out.

So here's a question. If we get "Tactical Intercessors" which are 10 models with one Special, one Heavy, and a Sarge with the various equipment options. . . is that different than up-scaled Tactical Marines?

Seems like it would be a long and roundabout way to draw marine hobbyists into the upscaled marine line by the nose (and wallet) with Primaris. Which is going to be really funny if I have the same army, using the same old models, at the end of it.

Why would that be funny?
Wouldn't that be good for players (which you should care about) and bad for GW sales? (which you have no obligation to care about)

Voss wrote:
Why would that be funny?
Wouldn't that be good for players (which you should care about) and bad for GW sales? (which you have no obligation to care about)

Schadenfreude for everyone being strung along and buying a bunch of new models all to wind up back at the beginning, while I field the full "upgrade" at no cost.

 Insectum7 wrote:
So here's a question. If we get "Tactical Intercessors" which are 10 models with one Special, one Heavy, and a Sarge with the various equipment options. . . is that different than up-scaled Tactical Marines?

Aside from having the Primaris extra-special bolt weapons (and probably getting new, extra-special heavies and specials), nope.

I think there's a good chance that we'd never see a 'Tactical Intercessors' kit, though. More like an add-on kit of special/heavy weapons, similar to how thunder hammers are a valid option for sergeants, but need to be purchased separately. Newbies can build the simple mono-weapon configuration without experiencing the all-too-familiar story of loading up their Tacticals with useless options (and more importantly, the unit works with just the basic guns), but more experienced players have options. Scuttlebutt is that part of the reason for the Primaris line was to make a 'cleaner', simpler range that didn't have as many pitfalls for new players; they can have that while keeping the options by keeping the add-ons out of the basic box. I'll be very interested to see whether the Eradicators kit comes with a multi-melta, since AFAIK that's the first one-per-squad heavy weapon option in the Primaris range.

Or, it could just end up being that Primaris get special weapon squads and heavy weapon squads, and you'll be expected to separate out all your flamer guys into their own unit, all your missile guys into their own unit, all your plasma guns/plasma cannons become Hellblasters (Assault and Heavy variants respectively), and so on. You won't be able to field Primaris Tacticals, but you'll still be able to use your old models.

The very slow and cautious approach they've taken so far makes me skeptical that they'll just dump all Firstborn into Legends and say 'buy a new army, lol'. I expect them to offer a compromise where Firstborn are technically gone but the models can be fielded in some manner as their Primaris replacements.

I'm a narrative/ story guy, and given GW's use of stories and campaigns to further the narrative, when I first saw Primaris, I figured GW was laying the ground work for Heresy 2.0- Old Marine VS New.

If I was playing Marines, that's how I would run it; I'd have a Crusade of Old Marines, and once my supply rating caught up to the models I owned, I would start adding Primaris.

As the Crusade grows, the relative successes and failures of each sub faction on the battlefield would determine which camp the chapter would disavow, or who would most likely be seduced by the offer of power from chaos.

Then my Crusade would split and the civil war would begin, with all my other Imperial factions forced to pick a side.

The story potential for internal conflict presented by Primaris is just too good to squat one faction or the other without first using it as material.

We're starting to see Primaris only chapters now, which makes the story more ripe for the telling, especially assuming there are a handful of hold-out Old Marine Chapters that haven't yet accepted Primaris. I'm not enough of Space Marine fan to know whether there are such chapters- I only know about the Primaris only Chapters via White Dwarf.

 catbarf wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
So here's a question. If we get "Tactical Intercessors" which are 10 models with one Special, one Heavy, and a Sarge with the various equipment options. . . is that different than up-scaled Tactical Marines?

Aside from having the Primaris extra-special bolt weapons (and probably getting new, extra-special heavies and specials), nope.

I think there's a good chance that we'd never see a 'Tactical Intercessors' kit, though. More like an add-on kit of special/heavy weapons, similar to how thunder hammers are a valid option for sergeants, but need to be purchased separately. Newbies can build the simple mono-weapon configuration without experiencing the all-too-familiar story of loading up their Tacticals with useless options (and more importantly, the unit works with just the basic guns), but more experienced players have options. Scuttlebutt is that part of the reason for the Primaris line was to make a 'cleaner', simpler range that didn't have as many pitfalls for new players; they can have that while keeping the options by keeping the add-ons out of the basic box. I'll be very interested to see whether the Eradicators kit comes with a multi-melta, since AFAIK that's the first one-per-squad heavy weapon option in the Primaris range.

Or, it could just end up being that Primaris get special weapon squads and heavy weapon squads, and you'll be expected to separate out all your flamer guys into their own unit, all your missile guys into their own unit, all your plasma guns/plasma cannons become Hellblasters (Assault and Heavy variants respectively), and so on. You won't be able to field Primaris Tacticals, but you'll still be able to use your old models.

The very slow and cautious approach they've taken so far makes me skeptical that they'll just dump all Firstborn into Legends and say 'buy a new army, lol'. I expect them to offer a compromise where Firstborn are technically gone but the models can be fielded in some manner as their Primaris replacements.

Honestly? I won't play Marines without Tactical Squads and Rhinos, full stop. If I cannot field a "Tactical Squad" with a heavy and special, put it in a Rhino and have it be a mainstay of my army, I'm done with Marines. Putting all flamers, etc. into one squad won't cut it.

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

People have been saying this for 3 years. Gw keeps disproving them. But please. Do hold your　breath waiting　for it.

Rules support does not prove them wrong.

The lack of a single new kit for old marines proves them right.

Continued rule support for old marines makes good business sense. Squatting such a massive range in one fell swoop would be a misfire of epic proportions, and would remove a gigantic portion of GW's base. By supporting old marines in rules only they can ease them out gradually while continually shifting their left-over inventory because they're still worth buying from a rules perspective.

That just sounds like new kits for no real reason, though. At a time when quite a few folks are heartily sick of marine releases (with, lets not forget 4 more books, 6 multipart kits and another captain still to come other the next three months, though hopefully at least the kits get shoved out the door faster than that).

Rules support seems enough. A new oldmarine kit for the sake of just doing an oldmarine kit would be extra-offensive at this stage.

At this point Death Guard are the 'breath of fresh air' break from marines until January (hopefully the promised Xenos codex doesn't wait until February, though there will still be Dark angels with that as well). The world can't stand much more irony of that magnitude.

 catbarf wrote:
Here's my thinking.

1. Release a brand-new Space Marine line with new unit designs, new sculpts, and stats that are The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm), but conceptually distinct and can augment current armies.

2. Flesh out this new Space Marine line such that it has equivalents or role-equivalents to everything in the old line that intends to be carried forward, while releasing no new units whatsoever for the old line. This is an ongoing process, through #5.

3. Advance all the well-known named characters to be part of this new Marine concept, with no continued rules support for their equivalents in the old line.

4. Upgrade the models in the old line to now have The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm) stats, narrowing the rules gap between the two. The difference, rules-wise, now comes down to equipment and organization.

(You Are Here)

5. Gradually increase the number of weapon options available to the new Marine line, providing some approximation of the flexibility of the old Marine line, as well as corresponding counterparts. At this point, fielding old Marines as new Marines becomes a viable option.

6. Release a new codex that only contains the new Marines. Release rules for the old Marines as non-tournament-legal Legends. Provide an official guide for how old Marines can be counted as new Marines for tournament purposes- at this point most units have direct equivalents, some can be shuffled around (maybe pluck the heavy weapons out to become their own squad), and only a few have no new counterparts.

Grognards can continue to play with their old units using the Legends rules, tournament players have official sanction to counts-as the new stuff, and new players have no reason to even look at the old line- which can then be gracefully phased out of production.

This has been my speculation since early in 8th and I'm sticking to it. I don't think it is anywhere near the level of 'conspiracy theory'. There are only so many ways to interpret the flagship faction suddenly getting zero releases overnight while its offshoot gets more attention than any other faction in the game.

Primaris have every indication of being a replacement for Firstborn (even down to the fluff), not a supplement- and GW has never, ever had a history of keeping around product lines that they've replaced. To think that this is a break from that history seems like a much less reasonable assumption than to think that at some point, Firstborn are going to be phased out.

You're not going to see Tactical Intercessors. They're not going to do anything that encourages using old Tac Marines as new Intercessors. They want the model sales (and I don't blame them). They're PROBABLY not going to update all the current characters. Some they probably want to swap out into a new main character. Lysander may go Chapter Master, or he may not "survive" the operation especially if Tor Garadon really takes off in popularity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
That just sounds like new kits for no real reason, though. At a time when quite a few folks are heartily sick of marine releases (with, lets not forget 4 more books, 6 multipart kits and another captain still to come other the next three months, though hopefully at least the kits get shoved out the door faster than that).

From a certain perspective those folks should stop lumping all Marines together. Complaining about "4 more books" when your average Marine player is only going to care about one of them sounds like a problem for the complainer not the Marine player.

I find it amusing that the line of reasoning for first born being squatted is "the writing is on the walls", with no actual writing or information to go off of. Then when challenged, the defense is "just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't".

I do hope you all realize that means that none of us know anything about what will or will not happen to first born, and it's absolutely insane that anyone is getting pissy about people believing they will not be squatted. Since no one has any actual idea either way. They're just making up reasons in their head for them to stay or go.

The writing on the wall is the fact that they have released an entirely new line of space marine models. Why would they continue to produce two competing sets of the same army forever?

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The writing on the wall is the fact that they have released an entirely new line of space marine models. Why would they continue to produce two competing sets of the same army forever?

because they continue to make money off both sets?

Why settle for only selling one marine army when you can sell two? GW clearly doesn’t care about redundancy. Not to mention, firstborn still have some of the most updated kits, among every faction. GW haven’t squatted old marines and GWs internal machinations are a mystery, so nothing is definite.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The writing on the wall is the fact that they have released an entirely new line of space marine models. Why would they continue to produce two competing sets of the same army forever?

because they continue to make money off both sets?

But do you think it is indefinitely sustainable?

Dudeface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The writing on the wall is the fact that they have released an entirely new line of space marine models. Why would they continue to produce two competing sets of the same army forever?

because they continue to make money off both sets?

But do you think it is indefinitely sustainable?

Maybe maybe not, I don't have access to GW's finances, for all we know Tac Marines outsell intercessors.

My guess is GW won't get rid of first born for over a decade, what we're more likely to see happen next edition, instead of first born just being removed however is consolidation, sternguard, company veterns etc all being rolled into a single unit entry "Marine veterns" etc. with firstborn existing, but being smaller and more barebones.

"Squatted into Legends" seems harsh, until you realize that as long as there are legit rules (Primaris) I can use the miniature is just a token.

If you think at a certain point GW will massively forbid Marine to participate tournament I think you're fooling yourselves: the two will became the same thing... And as long as I can use the miniature I painted I have no issue with that (I don't buy Primaris: I'm not interestwd in collecting the se army all over again with small size variations).

 catbarf wrote:
Here's my thinking.

1. Release a brand-new Space Marine line with new unit designs, new sculpts, and stats that are The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm), but conceptually distinct and can augment current armies.

2. Flesh out this new Space Marine line such that it has equivalents or role-equivalents to everything in the old line that intends to be carried forward, while releasing no new units whatsoever for the old line. This is an ongoing process, through #5.

3. Advance all the well-known named characters to be part of this new Marine concept, with no continued rules support for their equivalents in the old line.

4. Upgrade the models in the old line to now have The Way Marines Were Always Meant To Be(tm) stats, narrowing the rules gap between the two. The difference, rules-wise, now comes down to equipment and organization.

(You Are Here)

5. Gradually increase the number of weapon options available to the new Marine line, providing some approximation of the flexibility of the old Marine line, as well as corresponding counterparts. At this point, fielding old Marines as new Marines becomes a viable option.

6. Release a new codex that only contains the new Marines. Release rules for the old Marines as non-tournament-legal Legends. Provide an official guide for how old Marines can be counted as new Marines for tournament purposes- at this point most units have direct equivalents, some can be shuffled around (maybe pluck the heavy weapons out to become their own squad), and only a few have no new counterparts.

By your own suggested process we're not even past stage 3 yet, let alone entering stage 5.

Dudeface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The writing on the wall is the fact that they have released an entirely new line of space marine models. Why would they continue to produce two competing sets of the same army forever?

because they continue to make money off both sets?

But do you think it is indefinitely sustainable?

What, selling multiple marine armies? Uh... Yeah.
As long as the game lasts, anyway. They've been doing exactly that since the very first codex of second edition. Slightly longer if you count chaos marines.

Plus grey knights were added to the multiplicity of marine armies along the way, and the next three months are basically a monument to how successful selling multiple marine armies is as a sustainable strategy.

Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The writing on the wall is the fact that they have released an entirely new line of space marine models. Why would they continue to produce two competing sets of the same army forever?

because they continue to make money off both sets?

But do you think it is indefinitely sustainable?

What, selling multiple marine armies? Uh... Yeah.
As long as the game lasts, anyway. They've been doing exactly that since the very first codex of second edition. Slightly longer if you count chaos marines.

Plus grey knights were added to the multiplicity of marine armies along the way, and the next three months are basically a monument to how successful selling multiple marine armies is as a sustainable strategy.

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.

Heck, they made a whole new GAME for selling more Marine armies. A little thing called Horus Heresey.

Reset the clock

Maybe we also need to consider the outside world? The cluster that is Brexit will radically alter everything for everybody. Retailers are now saying that the daily shop will come with a huge rise in pricing after January if we leave the EU without any trade deals. If you add in mass unemployment because of that and covid, it is looking a bit bleak for 2021.

We're well aware how much GW loves a price rise, usually in June. If there is a no deal I'd expect one much quicker.
The problem they've got is that their prices are way beyond 'premium', so what happens? Well, they did raise prices at the peak of the first outbreak...

I'd keep ahold of all armies I owned, you might need them, as their entry level price point might crash the game very soon. If I was in charge of GW, the last thing I'd do is stop producing 1st born marines, I can see something like primaris intercessors hitting the £40 mark next year.

You never know, GW may have reached their peak, not because of their pricing more like a vicious one two of Brexit and covid. 2021 is going to be a tough year.

Slipstream wrote:
Maybe we also need to consider the outside world? The cluster that is Brexit will radically alter everything for everybody. Retailers are now saying that the daily shop will come with a huge rise in pricing after January if we leave the EU without any trade deals. If you add in mass unemployment because of that and covid, it is looking a bit bleak for 2021.

We're well aware how much GW loves a price rise, usually in June. If there is a no deal I'd expect one much quicker.
The problem they've got is that their prices are way beyond 'premium', so what happens? Well, they did raise prices at the peak of the first outbreak...

I'd keep ahold of all armies I owned, you might need them, as their entry level price point might crash the game very soon. If I was in charge of GW, the last thing I'd do is stop producing 1st born marines, I can see something like primaris intercessors hitting the £40 mark next year.

You never know, GW may have reached their peak, not because of their pricing more like a vicious one two of Brexit and covid. 2021 is going to be a tough year.

You assume the tactical box won't go up to match.

I assume it goes up, but not to match. They’ve got to sell off the back stock before they squat. And I’m betting old marines sales crashed hard the past couple years.

Considering the new patrol boxs for 9th, the chance of seeing new box for marines is going to be close to zero. It is nice that they are making new faction specific primaris units for all the supplements. Maybe it will even fix some units. The reavers are bad, but maybe the morkai dudes for SW are going to breath new life in to the models.

Where did the Blood Angel Tactical Squad go?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Where did the Blood Angel Tactical Squad go?

Look at the flowers Michaello... look at the flowers...


Probably reboxed to put it at the same price than tactical normal marines?

Then wouldn't it be "Temp Unavailable". It's just... gone.

Then again, it may be re-released when the BAs get their book. But it's weird to remove it completely.

A friend of mine called his GW store 2 days ago and the GW guy told him it was discontinued so he bought the last box in the store... maybe they are gonne for good.


Maybe is this the first actual space marine squating?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Then wouldn't it be "Temp Unavailable". It's just... gone.

Then again, it may be re-released when the BAs get their book. But it's weird to remove it completely.

I know space wolves had a buncha their stuff made "unavaliable online" recently (clearly prepping for the new supplement) but yeah, I don't think they where removed. It's certainly possiable the box has been discontinued, I mean the only diff between it and the tac box in terms of gear was a heavy flamer.. so... I mean if makes sense in a way that if GW was going to cull some of the "special chapter tac squad boxes" blood angels would be the ones chopped.

I played first born v.s. primaris today actually. First born won by a landslide, the versatility was too good comparatively.

I wonder if this is other peoples experience too ?
But with the new rules and 2w FB I think they don't need any extra rules... maybe a special strat would be nice for em, but they are running well IMO.

 Type40 wrote:
I played first born v.s. primaris today actually. First born won by a landslide, the versatility was too good comparatively.

I wonder if this is other peoples experience too ?
But with the new rules and 2w FB I think they don't need any extra rules... maybe a special strat would be nice for em, but they are running well IMO.

FB are definatly in a good placeI think intercessors are still our best "naked troops" but there are some amazing firstborn units, and this just multiplies when look at some of the specialist chapters, DA terminesm, SW TWC.. they're all amazing good.

9 SW Greyhunters with a Wolfgaurd stormshield + stormbolter x 2 in drop pods.

and TWC hammer shield combo

were definitely the stars of the show for the FB.

Stormshields on FB are crazy good against bolter fire now btw... just sit there rolling 2+ all day XD.

yeah SSs are over all IMHO a buff,

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Then wouldn't it be "Temp Unavailable". It's just... gone.

Then again, it may be re-released when the BAs get their book. But it's weird to remove it completely.

The start collecting box is currently temp unavailable, and has the BAngels tacticals in it, fwiw.

So they're not available anywhere, and have been expunged from the website as a separate item. An GW just announced "Combat Patrols" as a replacement for Start Collecting! boxes.

I'm sure this is just a giant coincidence.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So they're not available anywhere, and have been expunged from the website as a separate item. An GW just announced "Combat Patrols" as a replacement for Start Collecting! boxes.

I'm sure this is just a giant coincidence.

I get that you are implying the SC BAngels box and associated tactical kit is out of stock because they are going to replace it with one of these newfangled 'Combat Patrols' but I think to reasonably assume that the Blood Angels supplement would have to be releas- nevermind.

Brother Castor wrote:
I shan't hold my breath about firstborn marines getting squatted. During 8th everyone said they wouldn't be in SM codex 2.0. Then they said they won't be in 9th. Now apparently they won't be in 10th. Maybe. Maybe not.

All I know is that if GW do squat them I won't be replacing my entire army with Primaris. I'll either just use legends rules or retire them and focus on my other army.

This is the most kneejerky place on the internet and even here I didn't see people saying that old marines would be gone by 2.0 or by 9th. In fact 2.0 came out of nowhere and there was no real speculation at all about what 2.0 was going to be, just better SM rules. I don't have an opinion here I'm interested to see what GW do, I find them to be quite unpredictable, but you my friend are most definitely making gak up.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I get that you are implying the SC BAngels box and associated tactical kit is out of stock because they are going to replace it with one of these newfangled 'Combat Patrols' but I think to reasonably assume that the Blood Angels supplement would have to be releas- nevermind.

See! That's what happens when you use dirty words like "reasonably" and "assume".

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Brother Castor wrote:
I shan't hold my breath about firstborn marines getting squatted. During 8th everyone said they wouldn't be in SM codex 2.0. Then they said they won't be in 9th. Now apparently they won't be in 10th. Maybe. Maybe not.

All I know is that if GW do squat them I won't be replacing my entire army with Primaris. I'll either just use legends rules or retire them and focus on my other army.

This is the most kneejerky place on the internet and even here I didn't see people saying that old marines would be gone by 2.0 or by 9th. In fact 2.0 came out of nowhere and there was no real speculation at all about what 2.0 was going to be, just better SM rules. I don't have an opinion here I'm interested to see what GW do, I find them to be quite unpredictable, but you my friend are most definitely making gak up.

He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

No need to berate others because you managed not to see these posts over the last three years.

I didn’t berate even slightly I just disagreed - because no that didn’t happen. There’s people who will be of every opinion no matter how unreasonable, there’s always a few. When you frame it like they are the majority that’s just incorrect, even on here.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

You can be wrong about the method whilst still being right about the outcome.

I find it amusing that the line of reasoning for first born being squatted is "the writing is on the walls", with no actual writing or information to go off of. Then when challenged, the defense is "just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't".

There is a large amount of mounting evidence (which most folks have pointed out quite often). We just went an entire edition with no FB release. This has never happened before. Meanwhile, on the CSM side - they just quietly upscaled the marine models. No fan fare, no awkward ham-fisting of a new model line. Nothing. Just upscaled models.

Loyalists on the other hand have seen an unprecedented stream of releases in the Primaris line, coupled with no real updates to the firstborn line over the course of the course of the last several years. Then you look at the fluff - just about every discussion amongst both Chaos Marines and regular marines centers around the inevitability of the old marines being replaced by the Primaris. So yeah, sadly, the writing is actually on the wall. We ar eprobably 5 or more years out from it happening, but it's going to happen.

 Type40 wrote:
I played first born v.s. primaris today actually. First born won by a landslide, the versatility was too good comparatively.

I wonder if this is other peoples experience too ?
But with the new rules and 2w FB I think they don't need any extra rules... maybe a special strat would be nice for em, but they are running well IMO.

This doesn't surprise me at all. Classic Marines can load up on D2+ weapons in a way that Primaris can't. And if you do load up on Hellblasters or whatever, they are just big, fat targets.

Primaris now need 3W lol. Oh GW.

Tycho wrote:

I find it amusing that the line of reasoning for first born being squatted is "the writing is on the walls", with no actual writing or information to go off of. Then when challenged, the defense is "just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't".

There is a large amount of mounting evidence (which most folks have pointed out quite often). We just went an entire edition with no FB release. This has never happened before. Meanwhile, on the CSM side - they just quietly upscaled the marine models. No fan fare, no awkward ham-fisting of a new model line. Nothing. Just upscaled models.

Loyalists on the other hand have seen an unprecedented stream of releases in the Primaris line, coupled with no real updates to the firstborn line over the course of the course of the last several years. Then you look at the fluff - just about every discussion amongst both Chaos Marines and regular marines centers around the inevitability of the old marines being replaced by the Primaris. So yeah, sadly, the writing is actually on the wall. We ar eprobably 5 or more years out from it happening, but it's going to happen.

It's true that classics didn't get a release.

But what would you release for them? They've bern a complete army for at least ten years, and GW has struggled to fit anything new into their army. Any major update would simply be a re-release of a unit that already has a solid plastic kit.

Tech-Marines. Thunderfire Cannons. Servitors.

Ain't none'a them plastic yet.

It's true that classics didn't get a release.

But what would you release for them? They've bern a complete army for at least ten years, and GW has struggled to fit anything new into their army. Any major update would simply be a re-release of a unit that already has a solid plastic kit.

In addition to the updates HBMC mentioned - literally EVERY Primaris release could have just been a standard marine release instead. Every, single, one. But rather than going the CSM route of simply upscaling the models and saying "Here's your new stuff", GW went out of its way to invent a whole new type of marine to fill those roles, and unleashed a torrent of fluff that does nothing but talk about how that new type of marine will eventually become the replacement for the old marines ...

EDIT:

He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

I didn't see a single person say done in 8th or "gone by 9th". Not one. What we saw was people saying anywhere from 5-15 years. I think it's closer to the higher end of that, and as they start consolidating the marine books that timeline will slowly start to accelerate. I don't think we can pin the edition because GW's editions tend to last random lengths of time. 9th could last less than a year or run strong for 5. But I think 10-15 years from the Primaris introduction is a pretty good number.

If they had stayed one wound, they could have been basically gone by 10th. But now? GW has shot primaris in the foot AGAIN.

If they had stayed one wound, they could have been basically gone by 10th. But now? GW has shot primaris in the foot AGAIN.

Eh - sort of, but not really? Honestly, I really do think the 2W thing was to just get CSM more on par. GW has said repeatedly that they want actual CSM reflected in CSM armies, and that hordes and hordes of cultists are NOT what they had envisioned. The problem is, rather than make CSM good, they come at it from the direction of making cultists worse. Which leaves you with two bad options instead of just the one. So this was their way of getting CSM something to hang their hat on.

If regular marines stay 1 wound, the gulf between standard Chaos Marines and loyalist only widens once old marines are squatted, and you can't give one set of old marines the extra wound without giving all of them the extra wound. That said, I still think (because of the points increase) that this will end up making the standard Chaos marines worse, but time will tell ...

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Chaos can't have nice things. It's a in-house design rule they introduced shortly after Chaos won the global campaign for the 13th Black Crusade and they had to retcon pretty much the entirety of the results. lol

People talk about Grey Knights and their "Global Apology Tour", but they have nothing on CSM in this regard. They simply aren't going to give the standard CSM 2w and NOT give squatty marines 2 as well.

EDIT:

Plus, as I've said before, Primaris actually have ways to leverage that extra wound via strats. Squatty marines ... don't. So I still think it balances out.

Tycho wrote:

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Chaos can't have nice things. It's a in-house design rule they introduced shortly after Chaos won the global campaign for the 13th Black Crusade and they had to retcon pretty much the entirety of the results. lol

People talk about Grey Knights and their "Global Apology Tour", but they have nothing on CSM in this regard. They simply aren't going to give the standard CSM 2w and NOT give squatty marines 2 as well.

I would. In a hearbeat. I might even give CSM 3W to make them better than primaris so they can be scary antagonists. GW is so stupid. They could have kept the results of the crusade and then had the Imperium do something clever (like maybe invent a Tyranid attraction beacon) to feth over chaos. Or surpise! A bunch of those planets Chaos conquered were all tomb worlds of Necrons. Sucks to be you chaos.

SecondTime wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Chaos can't have nice things. It's a in-house design rule they introduced shortly after Chaos won the global campaign for the 13th Black Crusade and they had to retcon pretty much the entirety of the results. lol

People talk about Grey Knights and their "Global Apology Tour", but they have nothing on CSM in this regard. They simply aren't going to give the standard CSM 2w and NOT give squatty marines 2 as well.

I would. In a hearbeat. I might even give CSM 3W to make them better than primaris so they can be scary antagonists. GW is so stupid. They could have kept the results of the crusade and then had the Imperium do something clever (like maybe invent a Tyranid attraction beacon) to feth over chaos. Or surpise! A bunch of those planets Chaos conquered were all tomb worlds of Necrons. Sucks to be you chaos.

...then I think a significant proportion of us are very glad you don't work in the Design Studio.

Because what we get is so good? Sounds like they methodically gimp a faction with multiple subfactions because they are butthurt losers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tech-Marines. Thunderfire Cannons. Servitors.

Ain't none'a them plastic yet.

Those are not what I would call "major" units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

It's true that classics didn't get a release.

But what would you release for them? They've bern a complete army for at least ten years, and GW has struggled to fit anything new into their army. Any major update would simply be a re-release of a unit that already has a solid plastic kit.

In addition to the updates HBMC mentioned - literally EVERY Primaris release could have just been a standard marine release instead. Every, single, one. But rather than going the CSM route of simply upscaling the models and saying "Here's your new stuff", GW went out of its way to invent a whole new type of marine to fill those roles, and unleashed a torrent of fluff that does nothing but talk about how that new type of marine will eventually become the replacement for the old marines ...

Because it would sell better.

Believe me I would have preferred they just re-scale classics over the Primaris garbage we got, but oh-mah-goodness to people love throwing money at marines+1.

He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

I didn't see a single person say done in 8th or "gone by 9th". . .

Oh there definitely were.

Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

SecondTime wrote:
Primaris now need 3W lol. Oh GW.

Absolutely. GW will launch a completely new line of SM models in 10th edition with represents the evolution of primaris. Standard dude would be on 40mm base and half inch taller than an intercessor.

Apparently SM players love to re-buy their entire collections over and over again, it wouldn't be that unrealistic.

Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

No.

I also don't think it's going to be a 1-to-1 direct replacement of everything. Sure, some things will get that - LT to Primaris LT, Chaplain to Primaris Chaplain, etc, but I don't think everything will get that.

By the time it's done I think the Primaris will have the same over-all capabilities as a Firstborn army, but those capabilities will come in different ways. They won't necessarily all be a "buffed" version of a traditional Firstborn unit with "Primaris" in front of it.

It's also important to look at the main characters in the setting - More and more important Firstborn characters are crossing over with each release, so it's not like there's a trend to keep firstborn as such.

That said, I do wonder if they'll keep some units. I could see keeping terminators for example.

Because it would sell better.

Believe me I would have preferred they just re-scale classics over the Primaris garbage we got, but oh-mah-goodness to people love throwing money at marines+1.

Marines being the cash-cow that they are, I am confident they would have had equal success simply saying "Marines have 2 wounds now, and take a look at these awesome new units"!

Then roll out everything with the same rules it has now but with "Primaris" removed.

Tycho wrote:

Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

No.

I also don't think it's going to be a 1-to-1 direct replacement of everything. Sure, some things will get that - LT to Primaris LT, Chaplain to Primaris Chaplain, etc, but I don't think everything will get that.

By the time it's done I think the Primaris will have the same over-all capabilities as a Firstborn army, but those capabilities will come in different ways. They won't necessarily all be a "buffed" version of a traditional Firstborn unit with "Primaris" in front of it.

It's also important to look at the main characters in the setting - More and more important Firstborn characters are crossing over with each release, so it's not like there's a trend to keep firstborn as such.

That said, I do wonder if they'll keep some units. I could see keeping terminators for example.

Because it would sell better.

Believe me I would have preferred they just re-scale classics over the Primaris garbage we got, but oh-mah-goodness to people love throwing money at marines+1.

Marines being the cash-cow that they are, I am confident they would have had equal success simply saying "Marines have 2 wounds now, and take a look at these awesome new units"!

Then roll out everything with the same rules it has now but with "Primaris" removed.

So the Primes will not get a Turn 1 DS ability? Glad to hear it. Just for giggles, I'm betting 50 cents that you are incorrect on that sir.

So the Primes will not get a Turn 1 DS ability? Glad to hear it. Just for giggles, I'm betting 50 cents that you are incorrect on that sir.

So you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say they wouldn't get that ability. I just said it might not come in the form of a "Primaris Drop Pod".

Everyone on the side of "but there's no Primaris "XYZ" unit to replace the Firstborn "XYZ" unit" wants to hold those units up as the reason Firstborn aren't getting squatted. My point is that we've already seen there probably won't be 1-to-1 translations for everything. For example - there's no "Primaris Devastator Squad", but there are Hell Blasters, Eradicators, and Aggressors. There's no Primaris "scout squad" but there are Infiltrators and Incursors. Etc.

Apologies if this:

By the time it's done I think the Primaris will have the same over-all capabilities as a Firstborn army, but those capabilities will come in different ways. They won't necessarily all be a "buffed" version of a traditional Firstborn unit with "Primaris" in front of it.

Was unclear.

Marines being the cash-cow that they are, I am confident they would have had equal success simply saying "Marines have 2 wounds now, and take a look at these awesome new units"!

Then roll out everything with the same rules it has now but with "Primaris" removed.

They can't copy right Space Marines but they can copy right Primaris Space Marines.

They can't copy right Space Marines but they can copy right Primaris Space Marines.

They have already copyrighted "Adeptus Astartes", and "Astartes". They cannot copyright "Space Marines" in any form (even with "Primaris" in front of it), so I don't think that plays in here. They also didn't invent the word "Primaris" so again, not sure that's at play here.

I don't think they can copy right astartes as its the nane of an ancient god. They might be able to do Adeptus Astartes but I think they would have a hard time proving that they came up with that phrase if it was ever challenged. They can copy right space marines by throwing words in front of it such as Chaos and Primaris. If challenged in courts they have to prove that they were the first to use these phrases and ideas. Which so far I think they are. I can't think of any other sci fi franchise that has space marines corrupted by hell. GW protecting its IP has been the #1 reason for all the name changes over the last couple years. I don't see this one being any different.

They can copy right space marines by throwing words in front of it such as Chaos and Primaris. If challenged in courts they have to prove that they were the first to use these phrases and ideas. Which so far I think they are. I can't think of any other sci fi franchise that has space marines corrupted by hell.

They have already lost this battle if I'm not mistaken.

Tycho wrote:

They can copy right space marines by throwing words in front of it such as Chaos and Primaris. If challenged in courts they have to prove that they were the first to use these phrases and ideas. Which so far I think they are. I can't think of any other sci fi franchise that has space marines corrupted by hell.

They have already lost this battle if I'm not mistaken.

I think that battle was just for the phrase Space Marines not other iterations of it. Would have to go back and look it up.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Brother Castor wrote:
I shan't hold my breath about firstborn marines getting squatted. During 8th everyone said they wouldn't be in SM codex 2.0. Then they said they won't be in 9th. Now apparently they won't be in 10th. Maybe. Maybe not.

All I know is that if GW do squat them I won't be replacing my entire army with Primaris. I'll either just use legends rules or retire them and focus on my other army.

This is the most kneejerky place on the internet and even here I didn't see people saying that old marines would be gone by 2.0 or by 9th. In fact 2.0 came out of nowhere and there was no real speculation at all about what 2.0 was going to be, just better SM rules. I don't have an opinion here I'm interested to see what GW do, I find them to be quite unpredictable, but you my friend are most definitely making gak up.

He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

No need to berate others because you managed not to see these posts over the last three years.

If we didn’t see it, and we didn’t do it, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t “everyone” saying it. Or even a significant percentage of “everyone”.

If we didn’t see it, and we didn’t do it, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t “everyone” saying it. Or even a significant percentage of “everyone”.

Right - no one really even knew 2.0 was actually coming that far in advance ...

This doesn't surprise me at all. Classic Marines can load up on D2+ weapons in a way that Primaris can't. And if you do load up on Hellblasters or whatever, they are just big, fat targets.

I don't know how accurate that is? Heavy Intercessors say "hello" for one thing. Primaris actually have a lot of ways to get d2+ weapons that don't involve bad units like Hell Blasters ...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

I don't think GW would bother making new Drop Pods. I can't imagine that they're a hot seller, especially given that they basically don't do anything. I think they'd just keep using the existing ones.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Those are not what I would call "major" units.

I'd call Tech-Marines just as important to Marines as everything else that got made in plastic, and they never got one in plastic until they made a Primaris version.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

I don't think GW would bother making new Drop Pods. I can't imagine that they're a hot seller, especially given that they basically don't do anything. I think they'd just keep using the existing ones.

It depends on how cynical you are. They could replace them with a more offensive one (which they should, their lack of guns is their drawback they can just be ignored usually) and they would then be able to sell X more model kits.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Those are not what I would call "major" units.

I'd call Tech-Marines just as important to Marines as everything else that got made in plastic, and they never got one in plastic until they made a Primaris version.

Obviously Primaris Marines will instead get a new Impulsor variant called the Implusor that can hold 11 models and also perform multiple, simultaneous, deep strikes. It will also have sixteen Heavy Ironhail Heavy Stubber Hailfire Gatling Guns.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Obviously Primaris Marines will instead get a new Impulsor variant called the Implusor that can hold 11 models and also perform multiple, simultaneous, deep strikes. It will also have sixteen Heavy Ironhail Heavy Stubber Hailfire Gatling Guns.

Nah it will probably suck. The problem with the current drop pod is that you could drop it right next to just about any army and the army can just ignore it. A single storm bolter isn't going to force any kind of decision. Give it that fire (storm bolter) at every unit in range thing the bunker gets and it suddenly starts making people look at it even after you've used it for the whole point of taking it (Deep striking 10 Old Marines who can't deep strike themselves) Either make it a strat with no model, or make the model do something.

in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

When I saw the bunker and heard some of the rules rumors, I kind of assumed it would be the new Primaris delivery method. Deepstrike it in with a compliment of 5 Intercessors, etc. lol I'm glad they didn't do it that way. Making pods a strat might be too limiting though. I could see just making it a delivery option for anything that can currently take a drop pod and just paying a certain amount of points to deep-strike them.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

I don't care (much) either way. I like it better being on the table and having LOS etc effects, but Drop these 10 Dudes not within 9" as a stratagem/points upgrade would be fine. The tough part is being able to round up the units into one basket for the pod. i.e. Cap, LT, 5 sternguard, and 3 somethings that fit kind of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

When I saw the bunker and heard some of the rules rumors, I kind of assumed it would be the new Primaris delivery method. Deepstrike it in with a compliment of 5 Intercessors, etc. lol I'm glad they didn't do it that way. Making pods a strat might be too limiting though. I could see just making it a delivery option for anything that can currently take a drop pod and just paying a certain amount of points to deep-strike them.

The bunker is all kinds of smirk bait. Look at a Drop Pod and tell me it looks like 10 Tactical Marines would fit in it. On the other hand the Bunker actually looks like 10 Heavy Intercessors would fit in that thing. However zero can. Nobody can.. hunker down in the bunker. And it doesn't deep strike. Which given it's rules is a good thing. Deep Striking the shoots-everthing-bunker into the other guy's back line would be very TFG. Of course if it was one of my buddies and I was going first on turn one, I'd totally start a game that way. Drop them all around his Warlord and pretend that was going to be the turn. Then I'd tell him I was just kidding. Assuming the table was still upright and they were still in the room.

The bunker is all kinds of smirk bait. Look at a Drop Pod and tell me it looks like 10 Tactical Marines would fit in it. On the other hand the Bunker actually looks like 10 Heavy Intercessors would fit in that thing. However zero can. Nobody can.. hunker down in the bunker. And it doesn't deep strike. Which given it's rules is a good thing. Deep Striking the shoots-everthing-bunker into the other guy's back line would be very TFG. Of course if it was one of my buddies and I was going first on turn one, I'd totally start a game that way. Drop them all around his Warlord and pretend that was going to be the turn. Then I'd tell him I was just kidding. Assuming the table was still upright and they were still in the room.

I legit assumed that's how it was going to work! Especially given the name! But it would come with a quirky rule like "You must shout "Hammerfall" before deploying it. But once deployed, the idea was that it would essentially nuke everything nearby, and then the Intercessors would get out and plant the flag on the objective. Oh, and dedicated transport because Cawl.

It's the first and only bet I've lost on marine releases in the last 18 months. Thankfully ...

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

People have been saying this for 3 years. Gw keeps disproving them. But please. Do hold your　breath waiting　for it.

Moving oldmarines to 2 wounds does one thing. It allows GW to balance every other army around primaris statlines, without space marine players who still use oldmarines crying (and oh how space marine players love to cry) about how underpowered their units are.

This means they can balance the game for primaris, so when oldmarines get removed there's not some huge shift in power levels, as it's all already set up with the new system.

It's actually the most intelligent way for GW to go about removing oldmarines, so intelligent that I am suspicious that GW are even doing it intentionally. Probably an accident.

Most recent best evidence for oldmarines being phased out is Deathwatch. They used to be one of the few armies where oldmarines had a real edge over primaris, but most of their abilities/weapons have been toned down to uselessness or completely removed.

Niiru wrote:
Most recent best evidence for oldmarines being phased out is Deathwatch. They used to be one of the few armies where oldmarines had a real edge over primaris, but most of their abilities/weapons have been toned down to uselessness or completely removed.

Until we see their supplement in a week and a half, I wouldn't be quite so hasty as to make this declaration - odds are that things that didn't fit cleanly in the SM book without influencing other Chapters have been held back for implementation there.

Niiru wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oldmarines are being intentionally squatted, just at a slower pace than before due to backlash.

People have been saying this for 3 years. Gw keeps disproving them. But please. Do hold your　breath waiting　for it.

Moving oldmarines to 2 wounds does one thing..

It sells the left over kids nobody was buying because most of us thought (and think) they were(are) being squatted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

The bunker is all kinds of smirk bait. Look at a Drop Pod and tell me it looks like 10 Tactical Marines would fit in it. On the other hand the Bunker actually looks like 10 Heavy Intercessors would fit in that thing. However zero can. Nobody can.. hunker down in the bunker. And it doesn't deep strike. Which given it's rules is a good thing. Deep Striking the shoots-everthing-bunker into the other guy's back line would be very TFG. Of course if it was one of my buddies and I was going first on turn one, I'd totally start a game that way. Drop them all around his Warlord and pretend that was going to be the turn. Then I'd tell him I was just kidding. Assuming the table was still upright and they were still in the room.

I legit assumed that's how it was going to work! Especially given the name! But it would come with a quirky rule like "You must shout "Hammerfall" before deploying it. But once deployed, the idea was that it would essentially nuke everything nearby, and then the Intercessors would get out and plant the flag on the objective. Oh, and dedicated transport because Cawl.

It's the first and only bet I've lost on marine releases in the last 18 months. Thankfully ...

I kind of assumed they'd be Must-Be-Empty-And-Must-Be-Turn1 Drop Pods. They have to land on turn 1, can't carry anyone onto the field (or can only carry Primaris in which case they'd be the Primaris Drop Pod) and would allow 10 of something to shelter in place. Of course, I also assumed they'd have some sort of facing/LOS rule for the Four Faces of Dakka.