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(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 01:31:56


Post by: Sterling191


With the arrival of the new Deathwatch Supplement in a week, and the arrival of all the pertinent rules thanks to the magic of the internet and previews, it's time to officially step into the new edition with a brand new thread to discuss it all. As a Supplement book we get full access (with minor caveats) to everything in the Codex: Space Marines book. You may wish to refer to this thread for general questions involving the army as a whole, while this thread will primarily be focused on the Deathwatch specifically.

Let's get down to business. Dont be shy, we've got a lot to analyze, evaluate and understand. The new edition is a significant change both in playstyle as well as rules.

Spoiler:
8th edition thread can be found here for reference and posterity.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 02:07:24


Post by: Niiru


9th Supplement Leaks

Figured for the sake of reference, I'd chuck this here too.

So, I know we got our book released today, but there wasn't anything new in there I don't think other than relics (which have been mentioned in the other thread).

However, there was also the IA release today. Anything in there of interest to us?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 02:22:35


Post by: Sterling191


I'm still digging into the new FW Index, so no comprehensive look from me just yet. A few items of note so far:

The Mortis/CMortis dreads appear to have been folded into the "Relic Contemptor" datasheet, which pushes them to BS/WS 3, nixes their FNP and imparts a 1CP per model cost to take them. I think they're largely out of the picture.

Likewise the Leviathan dropping to T7 with a 5++ makes it significantly less viable (though it was largely pointed out of consideration already). Theyre all just fundamentally outclassed by the Redemptor now in my opinion.

Tempests and Rapiers maaaaay have some legs. Ditto for the Termite, but I think that's because of a typo. Non-Astraeus superheavies appear to have finally gotten some reasonable points costs, so they may actually be worth considering for Onslaught level games.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 02:48:54


Post by: LunarSol


So we suddenly seem to have a ton of HQ options. What's jumping out at people?

A librarian of some sort seems like a first pick at this point. I'd lean towards either the Phobos option or the OldMarine version to save points between the 3. I have a soft spot for Natorian, but.... relics....

Initially my other go-to pick was the Watch Master, but I'm less certain now. I probably want him as my third pick, but.... I'm not sure I want 3 when there's so many things I could spend the points on. Again.... relics.....

The model who kind of stands out as making the most of those aforementioned relics really seems to be the Phobos captain. I kind of hate the sculpt but he's really interesting and seems like a steal for his cost.

That leaves a shield Captain as the other strong contender for the Aegis. Probably my first pick if I'm not taking a Phobos captain.

Probably some other solid choices I'm missing like Chaplains of all varieties, particularly one with a Jump Pack or Bike to get up the field. Other thoughts?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:

Likewise the Leviathan dropping to T7 with a 5++ makes it significantly less viable (though it was largely pointed out of consideration already). Theyre all just fundamentally outclassed by the Redemptor now in my opinion.


I need to sit down and really compare the two, but its worth noting the Leviathan got a HUGE price drop along with all the other nerfs. I think you're probably right still between the Command Point and lack of CORE, but I'm still rather curious to compare. I think the Venerables are probably the all around best option regardless.



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 08:03:24


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


Thank you Sterling191 for opening the new 9th thread!

Alright, exciting times for DW players.

Re: HQ.

I think that a librarian and a captain with the dominus aegis are my top picks.

As already noted, this makes the WM kind of redundant. If fielding outriders, for instance, a bike chaplain could be a better choice.

However, the WM with the tome and his aura can transform any units in an absolute blender rerolling to hit and to wound vs another unit. That is brutal.

Another issue, just to be sure: what do you think about eliminators with las fusils? They might do some works vs. elites and fast attacks/transport

Are they still subpar?

Finally, we need CPs. And we don't have anymore as far as I have seen ways of getting them back like our old wt.

Could it be worth to take an additional WTs to give to someone the UM WT "adept of the codex"?



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 08:26:19


Post by: grouchoben


I think reports of the Leviathan's demise might be a bit premature! It'll need support, and these days that means a techmarine. Here's my take on what was (and still is imo) a key unit for the Watch...

Firstly, while it's been nerfed a pip of T and invuln, it still has w14 2+/5++, and its gun gained 12" range, which used to hold the unit back pretty significantly, forcing it to move and suffer a malus in 8e.

It comes in at 240pts with storm cannons now which are a solid pick (2x Heavy 8 S7 -1 D2) but grav has changed significantly too (heavy 2d3 S8 -3 2D/3D). Let's say you stick with Storm cannons for the moment, and equip the Lev fully...

You have 16 S7 -1 D2 shots baseline. Nice. Add on the new twin vulkite option for long range support instead of the previously under-utilised heavy flamers: another 8 S5 0ap 2D shots. Now add the unique option of 3 HK missiles, which have been buffed up to S10.

All in we're talking 255pts for what is still the tankiest dread in the dex, putting out 24 D2 shots (in a marine meta) and 3 one-off S10 missiles. If you want it shooting at BS2 add in a techmarine, bringing the total cost up to 325pt. This is almost identical to the unit's cost at the end of 8e, and comes with a free techmarine!

Finally, gun-lev may now be secondfiddle to melee-lev. The unit now has base 4, +2 for twin claws, +1 base, for 7 melee attacks before any other considerations, all for 220pts. That's cheap enough to consider running one as a serious distraction blender. Important to note that this lev retains some firepower, benefitting from the new melta rules, and 8 S5 0ap D2 Volkite shots. It looks suspiciously like a bargain to me.

To summarise: the unit has changed dramatically, and lost a pip of T and invuln, whilst upping both its rate and range of fire at the cost of AP, something that can be partially offset by dev doctrine. Storm Cannons can no longer be up-gunned by DW strats to function well as AT, but lean into anti-marine tech and is much cheaper. Melee-lev may now be a serious contender.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 08:27:03


Post by: Leth


My current 3 go tos are Watch master 2x warlord trait, chaplain on bike master and. Warlord trait and relic and jump captaiin with shield relic. If shield doesn’t replace stormshield then I will pop him out for a Phobos captain.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 09:26:20


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


 grouchoben wrote:
I think reports of the Leviathan's demise might be a bit premature! It'll need support, and these days that means a techmarine. Here's my take on what was (and still is imo) a key unit for the Watch...

Firstly, while it's been nerfed a pip of T and invuln, it still has w14 2+/5++, and its gun gained 12" range, which used to hold the unit back pretty significantly, forcing it to move and suffer a malus in 8e.

It comes in at 240pts with storm cannons now which are a solid pick (2x Heavy 8 S7 -1 D2) but grav has changed significantly too (heavy 2d3 S8 -3 2D/3D). Let's say you stick with Storm cannons for the moment, and equip the Lev fully...

You have 16 S7 -1 D2 shots baseline. Nice. Add on the new twin vulkite option for long range support instead of the previously under-utilised heavy flamers: another 8 S5 0ap 2D shots. Now add the unique option of 3 HK missiles, which have been buffed up to S10.

All in we're talking 255pts for what is still the tankiest dread in the dex, putting out 24 D2 shots (in a marine meta) and 3 one-off S10 missiles. If you want it shooting at BS2 add in a techmarine, bringing the total cost up to 325pt. This is almost identical to the unit's cost at the end of 8e, and comes with a free techmarine!

Finally, gun-lev may now be secondfiddle to melee-lev. The unit now has base 4, +2 for twin claws, +1 base, for 7 melee attacks before any other considerations, all for 220pts. That's cheap enough to consider running one as a serious distraction blender. Important to note that this lev retains some firepower, benefitting from the new melta rules, and 8 S5 0ap D2 Volkite shots. It looks suspiciously like a bargain to me.

To summarise: the unit has changed dramatically, and lost a pip of T and invuln, whilst upping both its rate and range of fire at the cost of AP, something that can be partially offset by dev doctrine. Storm Cannons can no longer be up-gunned by DW strats to function well as AT, but lean into anti-marine tech and is much cheaper. Melee-lev may now be a serious contender.


I agree that the Levi is still alive and kicking, albeit in a new way. I am less convinced that it is still "key" given the significant upgrade to the Redemptor. Being "core" or not is very significant, and now one can easily give to a DW unit 5++ and/or 5+++, bumping the Redemptor survivability by quite a bit. (Not to mention the cost in real money, but that is a separate issue, of course ).


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 12:20:29


Post by: grouchoben


Okay let's put them head to head, with the Lev rocking a loadout closes to a redemptor:

Storm cannon
Twin Volkites
Claw
3 HK missiles
= 245pts

It's 60pts more expensive and loses core, both serious problems.

It gains a wound and a 2+/5+++ save and an extra cc attack. Its guns are:
8 S7 -1 D2
8 S5 0 D2 (6s cause mortal wounds)
3 S10 -2 1d6D
1 S8 -4 1d6D
So when it fires it can expect to kill just over 3 marines, plus its antitank, and when it fights it can expect to kill just over 3 marines.
Overall I'd say it's better at killing marines, much tougher in CC and so suitable for going up against specialists, but is held back by lack of core.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 13:48:21


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


I perfectly agree. I have to say that both choices are, in my opinion, viable. If you go down the "core" buffing route and you are constrained by points (or money), the Redemptor is likely a better choice.

But if you have a techmarine, have the points, or you simply already own (or want) the levi, then this also is a playable choice.

There is a third point of difference, however: fielding a levi now costs 1 CP. Not much, and again, it is a potent unit that can be worth such a minor investement, but it is another thing to consider


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 14:09:32


Post by: Sterling191


 grouchoben wrote:

Overall I'd say it's better at killing marines, much tougher in CC and so suitable for going up against specialists, but is held back by lack of core.


Reasonable conclusions, and I completely misread the points costs last night so appreciate the breakdown. I'll disagree a bit about the CC. The upgrade to the Redemptor fist makes it terrifying to nearly any target profile, and with the changes to hammers and fists I think Duty Eternal closes the gap between the 2+ and the 3+ base armor saves considerably. Especially if you can get an Aegis or Fortress support character to even out the 5++ equation (which you're very likely to be taking anyway).

 LunarSol wrote:
So we suddenly seem to have a ton of HQ options. What's jumping out at people?


A Jump or Bike character to tote the Beacon is a must-take as far as Im concerned. A significant weakness of old-school Kill Team style lists is their speed, and the Beacon is a major way to mitigate that. Likewise, as much as I dislike them, a WM is also equally mandatory for those leaning hard into Specialisms.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 15:48:23


Post by: Leth


The Levi’s biggest loss is that it is not core, and thus can’t benefit from a lot of auras or abilities that would help it perform its role in either CC or ranged.

It’s not bad mind you, just has to be thought about differently. I would probably use a combination of melee and shooting since we want to advance up the board while also shooting with no loss of BS now.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 15:49:28


Post by: Cryogenicman


I'm trying to decide if taking the iron hands Adept of the Omnisiah on a master of the forge would let him restore 4 wounds a turn.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 16:30:24


Post by: Sterling191


Cryogenicman wrote:
I'm trying to decide if taking the iron hands Adept of the Omnisiah on a master of the forge would let him restore 4 wounds a turn.


RAW it wont. Your possible outcomes with the combination are D3+1 or 3. It likely will need an FAQ.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 19:31:36


Post by: LunarSol


Sterling191 wrote:

A Jump or Bike character to tote the Beacon is a must-take as far as Im concerned. A significant weakness of old-school Kill Team style lists is their speed, and the Beacon is a major way to mitigate that. Likewise, as much as I dislike them, a WM is also equally mandatory for those leaning hard into Specialisms.


Yeah, at the moment, the big challenge is the 1 captain limit. I'm thinking the Indomitus Captain is a pretty solid choice to hang back and buff to-hit and Aegis, particularly as I realize there's no longer SIA on my Vets I've used for the role in the past. I suppose a Company Champion might do the job on a budget though. The Lt is an option as well, but I don't love Lts in DW as it kinda does what we do.

Without the ability to then put the Beacon on a Jump Pack captain, it comes down Librarians and Chaplains. At the moment I'm leaning on the new Bike Chaplain. He's very similar in cost to the Jump Pack versions and gets a couple great guns. The Phobos Librarian is probably next up. Not nearly as flexible, but still does the job of getting up the table. Realistically the Jump Pack Librarian is probably a better fit for the job, but there's no real model for it which makes it seem like a questionable investment these days.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 19:50:47


Post by: Niiru


Company Champion is an interesting model for the Aegis, but I'm not sure how much he brings to the table for deathwatch. Would have been nice if the judiciar carried a shield.

Phobos captain or librarian being able to Beacon a unit on turn 1 seems viable, surely?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 20:42:03


Post by: Leth


Strategism post I am working on, would happily accept any feedback yall might have. Sorry Dakka wont let me visually format it like I want to.


So lets start with the raw math.

___________Default Reroll 1 %up Reroll all %up
Wound on 2s 83.3% 97.2% 16.7% 97.2% 0.0%
Wound on 3s 66.7% 77.8% 16.7% 88.9% 14.3%
Wound on 4s 50.0% 58.3% 16.7% 75.0% 28.6%
Wound on 5s 33.3% 38.9% 16.7% 55.6% 42.9%
Wound on 6s 16.7% 19.4% 16.7% 30.6% 57.1%

Next lets look at the minimum points cost of the unit for the increase in efficiency to break even against a particular target.

______________Reroll 1s
___________25pts 35pts
Wound on 2s 150 210
Wound on 3s 150 210
Wound on 4s 150 210
Wound on 5s 150 210
Wound on 6s 150 210

_____________ Reroll All
_____________25pts 35pts
Wound on 2s N/A N/A
Wound on 3s 175 245
Wound on 4s 88 123
Wound on 5s 58 82
Wound on 6s 44 61

*When wounding on 2s it is obviously a waste of points since to get re-roll all we would already be required to be in the chapter tactic re-roll 1s. That is factored into the numbers

With this math we have a general idea of when and where we should apply a strategism for a unit that performs a dedicated role in your army. In general we can confirm that it is a waste of points to put them on anything but a full 10 man kill team.

"If you dont encounter an efficient target you are wasting a lot of points".

This is going to be the case with any army you make. If you are firing your heavy weapons at gaunts, because you have no other targets, you are doing the exact same thing. If you are paying for 2 wounds against an army with a lot of damage 2 weapons? You are doing the same thing. If you are paying for an invul save against a target where all the weapons dont break your armor? You are doing the same thing.

In any game points will be wasted or inefficient, partially because your opponent will be attempting to be as efficient as possible themselves. As with everything in army construction it is a cost benefits analysis. Across an entire event, will you encounter enough units that occupy those force org slots to justify the points?

Which is where the Meta comes in and this is another case of the deathwatch being deathwatch in that we have an ability to adjust to the meta without needing a new supplement. Right now marines, harlequins, and deathguard are very powerful, armies that are centered around their HQs/elites/characters as well as troops. So investing in improved efficiency against troops and HQs would be a solid investment over the course of many games. If knights become meta? A malleus squad will pay for itself across many games. Its no different than any other upgrade that you invest in for your army other than the fact that it is very much an all or nothing choice(which I understand many people are hesitent about).

Strategisms apply even if you drop your mission tactics

You get these benefits regardless of the mission tactics you are occupying INCLUDING if you swap out your mission tactics via the brotherhood strategem, Now this is where things get spicy.

Imagine you swap to space wolves giving you +1 to hit, your tactics are against that target, you are now +1 hit re-roll all wounds. If you want to blender a unit this is going to be hugely significant. Lets look at a unit of outriders against intecessors as an example.

5x6 for 30 attacks. hitting on 2s so 25 hits. approximately 19 wounds for 10ish wounds(without assault doctrine) this is on average wiping out a 5 man squad. Thats not even factoring all your shooting that would still get re-roll to wound.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 21:07:11


Post by: ragnorack1


Not really played in a while, but keep dipping in now and again to see what new changes bring in.

Just wondering what the craic is in regards to "legends" models? are they for casual games only?

Just wondering as a Chief Apocathary on a bike supporting an aegis captain on a bike with some obsec outriders seems a fairly resilient and mobile unit to bully enemy troops and seize objectives.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 21:39:25


Post by: LunarSol


Niiru wrote:
Company Champion is an interesting model for the Aegis, but I'm not sure how much he brings to the table for deathwatch. Would have been nice if the judiciar carried a shield.

Phobos captain or librarian being able to Beacon a unit on turn 1 seems viable, surely?


I really like the Phobos captain in general, but non-Captain Aegis models are really hard to come by.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ragnorack1 wrote:
Not really played in a while, but keep dipping in now and again to see what new changes bring in.

Just wondering what the craic is in regards to "legends" models? are they for casual games only?

Just wondering as a Chief Apocathary on a bike supporting an aegis captain on a bike with some obsec outriders seems a fairly resilient and mobile unit to bully enemy troops and seize objectives.


Basically yes. Legends models are no longer supported and have rules that mostly exist for casual play.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 21:48:11


Post by: Niiru


 Leth wrote:
In general we can confirm that it is a waste of points to put them on anything but a full 10 man kill team.



First off, I snipped all the great content cos it would have choked up the thread, but this is -great work- (assuming it's accurate, which I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt on lol).

However, on a lot of those "full rerolls" units, it seems that you only need 100 points in a unit (or less) if your common targets for that unit are tough enough for you to only be wounding on 4s/5s/etc. I wonder how common this is, as these units would seem to be the ones that get the most benefit for their cost. Things like heavy intercessor bolters perhaps, with lower strengths.

Though tbh I don't think there's ever a reason not to take a full unit of 10 if you plan to put a specialisation on it. Even if you only want 5x of something to have a buff vs heavy support (for example), you might as well give it to the other half of the unit for free as well, even if you plan to combat squad and you end up with a squad of... bolters with a buff vs heavy support (not their ideal target, but it's basically a free buff). If that makes sense.





(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 21:56:21


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:

I really like the Phobos captain in general, but non-Captain Aegis models are really hard to come by.


Part of why I'm eyeing up the Champion. Super-cheap beatstick model that can carry the Aegis, and as an anchor for a fire base provides some reasonably beefy countercharge ability.

 LunarSol wrote:

ragnorack1 wrote:

Just wondering what the craic is in regards to "legends" models? are they for casual games only?


Basically yes. Legends models are no longer supported and have rules that mostly exist for casual play.


Quick clarification here, Legends models are fully legal for play in Open, Crusade or Matched Play games, but are not recommended for organized events.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/01 22:16:40


Post by: Niiru


So I'm trying to make two things useful (or at least as small a handicap as possibl).

Shotgun squad (or shotguns in a squad) being one thing. One advantage they have, is that they are the cheapest loadout for veterans. The guns aren't even that bad either. Not sure how to leverage it though.

Another thing is SIA, but the strat is pretty much useless expect for heavy intercessors. However one possible thing is the Bolt Cache relic. It's a small buff for most sergeants, probably not worth it...
But a Centurian Dev with a hurricane bolter and 2x heavy bolters getting it.... could this be worthwhile?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 00:47:20


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

But a Centurian Dev with a hurricane bolter and 2x heavy bolters getting it.... could this be worthwhile?


It's 300 points to do that. That's an entire Kill Team to give a single model SIA. I understand the draw...it's just a *lot* of points on a unit that doesnt have innate obsec, isnt core, and is slow as molasses.

I'm personally looking at giving the Cache to a Biker Sergeant in an MSU + MM Attack Bike team. Give the Sarge a Storm Bolter and shield (yes, you can do that), and for 155 points you've got a roving gunship team that can skirmish well above their weight, but isnt such a massive investment that when they inevitable die it's a significant loss for the army.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 01:06:55


Post by: cuda1179


Sorry if I missed it, but is there a definitive list of what weapons can use Special Issue Ammunition? I have 20 guys with Storm Bolters that look useless now.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 01:21:05


Post by: Sterling191


 cuda1179 wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but is there a definitive list of what weapons can use Special Issue Ammunition? I have 20 guys with Storm Bolters that look useless now.


For non KT: Cassius, Artemis or Natorian the list is:

Deathwatch Boltgun (including the bolter half of combi-weapons)
Stalker Pattern Boltgun
Watch Master Spear

That is it. Storm Bolters are no longer eligible for SIA.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 01:21:12


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:
Niiru wrote:

But a Centurian Dev with a hurricane bolter and 2x heavy bolters getting it.... could this be worthwhile?


It's 300 points to do that. That's an entire Kill Team to give a single model SIA. I understand the draw...it's just a *lot* of points on a unit that doesnt have innate obsec, isnt core, and is slow as molasses.

I'm personally looking at giving the Cache to a Biker Sergeant in an MSU + MM Attack Bike team. Give the Sarge a Storm Bolter and shield (yes, you can do that), and for 155 points you've got a roving gunship team that can skirmish well above their weight, but isnt such a massive investment that when they inevitable die it's a significant loss for the army.



I'm not sold on bikes yet at all, never have been. Willing to be proven wrong of course, but they just seem... boring. Veteran bikers at least have some vague interest, the new outriders are ... just nothing. (They're probably great units on paper, this is very much a personal thing I'm sure). Spending a relic on giving SIA to two RF2 boltguns seems pretty lacklustre as well.

Cents had the vague benefit of giving SIA to a single model, that has about 3x the firepower of that biker sarge. No obsec sucks of course, but we have a lot of quality obsec, and being slow isn't so much of a handicap as we have at least one way to teleport them where we need them, should it be needed.

I don't think there'd be much point in taking a cent squad and a bunch of heavy-intercessors though, as their jobs overlap, and the heavy ints benefit from more buffs potentially. On the other hand, I kinda like the centurion models lol.

Wonder if assault cents have any use with the teleport ability.





(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 01:27:06


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

Spending a relic on giving SIA to two RF2 boltguns seems pretty lacklustre as well.


Remember SIA bolters benefit from bolter discipline now. That sarge is pumping out 8 SIA shots at all times. The reason I'm eyeing that particular squad configuration is that it allows for more board control, but also threat saturation and disruption. It's not going to wipe a Knight or a swarm of 30 gaunts of the table by itself (though in the right doctrine it's gonna make a serious dent in that blob), but it's a unit that has to be dealt with otherwise it's going to throw serious wrenches into your plans. Remember that we get a fall back and shoot strat for bikes from the prime Marine Codex now.

It's an evolution of the 3x Bike, 2x VanVet combat squad I ran back in 8th, which always served me super well. Not because of what it could kill, but because it could be an absolutely hellacious nuisance.

Niiru wrote:

I'm not sold on bikes yet at all, never have been. Willing to be proven wrong of course, but they just seem... boring.


Their primary role isnt killing, which is why theyve been something of a niche play for most of 8th. They heavily lean into the objective driven nature of 9th.

Niiru wrote:

Cents had the vague benefit of giving SIA to a single model, that has about 3x the firepower of that biker sarge. No obsec sucks of course, but we have a lot of quality obsec, and being slow isn't so much of a handicap as we have at least one way to teleport them where we need them, should it be needed.

I don't think there'd be much point in taking a cent squad and a bunch of heavy-intercessors though, as their jobs overlap, and the heavy ints benefit from more buffs potentially. On the other hand, I kinda like the centurion models lol.


Cents also cost more than three times what a bike does. I hear you on the mobility shenanigans, but thats an opportunity cost that the bikers dont have to pay. If you're using Teleportarium or the Beacon to get that Sarge a firing lane, that's resources you cant use to help your Kill Teams.

Niiru wrote:

Wonder if assault cents have any use with the teleport ability.


They're technically legal targets of Teleportarium as they have the Infantry keyword. That may or may not get FAQed.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 21:01:37


Post by: ChobitsCrazy




This is a good article and brings Vet bikers into a better light. However bearing in mind that we can turn on Assault Doc whenever we want are Power Swords the best option for them? I was leaning more towards Axes -4AP seems overkill in any situation with Inv saves vs the extra Str against Gravis and T5 termies.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 21:10:50


Post by: Sterling191


 ChobitsCrazy wrote:

This is a good article and brings Vet bikers into a better light. However baring in mind that we can turn on Assault Doc whenever we want is Power Swords the best option for them? I was leaning more towards Axes -4AP seems overkill in any situation with Inv saves vs the extra Str against Gravis and T5 termies.


It's *highly* target profile dependent, and the math gets horrifically complex when you factor in specialisms and the +1A from chainswords. If it's a non-favored enemy, the Axes win out on everything that isnt a T4, 7, 8 or 9 target with a 3+ or better, while Chainswords win out against T3 5+ or worse and T7 4+ or worse. If it's a favored enemy, axes win out against T5, 6 and 10, while the chainsword is the go to for T3, 4 and 7 with a 4+ or worse. T8 and T9 4+ or worse is a wash, while the sword wins out on pretty much everything else.

All of the boils down to (and I want to caveat that this is a massive generalization) if you have a lot of T5/T6 the axe is the way to go, if you are seeing a lot of power armor or tanks the sword is a viable option. I personally do think the 5ppm cost on the power weapons on the bikes gives Chainswords a niche to fill (as you're likely not dropping a Specialism on a combat squadded bike team outside of Furor horde blending), as the strength of the Vet bike is the fact that it's crazy inexpensive for what it brings to the table.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 22:26:26


Post by: ChobitsCrazy


Sterling191 wrote:

It's *highly* target profile dependent, and the math gets horrifically complex when you factor in specialisms and the +1A from chainswords. If it's a non-favored enemy, the Axes win out on everything that isnt a T4, 7, 8 or 9 target with a 3+ or better, while Chainswords win out against T3 5+ or worse and T7 4+ or worse. If it's a favored enemy, axes win out against T5, 6 and 10, while the chainsword is the go to for T3, 4 and 7 with a 4+ or worse. T8 and T9 4+ or worse is a wash, while the sword wins out on pretty much everything else.

All of the boils down to (and I want to caveat that this is a massive generalization) if you have a lot of T5/T6 the axe is the way to go, if you are seeing a lot of power armor or tanks the sword is a viable option. I personally do think the 5ppm cost on the power weapons on the bikes gives Chainswords a niche to fill (as you're likely not dropping a Specialism on a combat squadded bike team outside of Furor horde blending), as the strength of the Vet bike is the fact that it's crazy inexpensive for what it brings to the table.


Assuming a few pieces: Assault Doc is active, we leave heavy tank killing to tank killers, and Chainswords are better against small fries. A few points can be made against popular picks in the marine meta currently.
Sword vs Axe
1. Bladeguard - Straight tie, ends up wounding on 3s with a 4++
2. Intercessor Eq - Sword wins, unless they are buffed with a 5++
3. Heavy Intercessor Eq - Virtually a tie trading +1 to wound vs additional -ap, victory to the Axe if the unit has a 5++
4. Land Speeder/Other T6 - Same as the previous

Of course as you already mentioned: Massive Generalization. Just food for thought really.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 23:29:15


Post by: Niiru


 ChobitsCrazy wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:

It's *highly* target profile dependent, and the math gets horrifically complex when you factor in specialisms and the +1A from chainswords. If it's a non-favored enemy, the Axes win out on everything that isnt a T4, 7, 8 or 9 target with a 3+ or better, while Chainswords win out against T3 5+ or worse and T7 4+ or worse. If it's a favored enemy, axes win out against T5, 6 and 10, while the chainsword is the go to for T3, 4 and 7 with a 4+ or worse. T8 and T9 4+ or worse is a wash, while the sword wins out on pretty much everything else.

All of the boils down to (and I want to caveat that this is a massive generalization) if you have a lot of T5/T6 the axe is the way to go, if you are seeing a lot of power armor or tanks the sword is a viable option. I personally do think the 5ppm cost on the power weapons on the bikes gives Chainswords a niche to fill (as you're likely not dropping a Specialism on a combat squadded bike team outside of Furor horde blending), as the strength of the Vet bike is the fact that it's crazy inexpensive for what it brings to the table.


Assuming a few pieces: Assault Doc is active, we leave heavy tank killing to tank killers, and Chainswords are better against small fries. A few points can be made against popular picks in the marine meta currently.
Sword vs Axe
1. Bladeguard - Straight tie, ends up wounding on 3s with a 4++
2. Intercessor Eq - Sword wins, unless they are buffed with a 5++
3. Heavy Intercessor Eq - Virtually a tie trading +1 to wound vs additional -ap, victory to the Axe if the unit has a 5++
4. Land Speeder/Other T6 - Same as the previous

Of course as you already mentioned: Massive Generalization. Just food for thought really.



While you're saying these are generalisations, from a glance this seems to be:

A tie (no benefit)
Sword win (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)

So considering most of these are ties, and 5++ isn't too uncommon a buff, shouldn't axes be the de facto default weapon choice?

Though chainswords being 5pts cheaper is a factor. And where do lightning claws come in?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/02 23:31:52


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

Though chainswords being 5pts cheaper is a factor. And where do lightning claws come in?


They don't. Only the Sergeant in a Bike team can take one, regular Vet Bikers can only take Swords, Axes or Mauls.

Niiru wrote:

So considering most of these are ties, and 5++ isn't too uncommon a buff, shouldn't axes be the de facto default weapon choice?


Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Wound rerolls make things weird, so the conversation shifts considerably if you're looking at Bikes in Kill Teams.



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 00:00:26


Post by: Chris521


He's not what he used to be, but it looks like you could make an interesting Terminator Captain. The Relic that gives SIA to a bolt weapon appears to work with a weapon that gets the master crafted upgrade from the WL trait. This would let you give a Terminator Captain a d2 storm bolter with SIA and bolter discipline.

This of course, assumes that using the Artificer Bolt Cache doesn't actually turn the storm bolter into a relic.

I'm also trying to decide if the Optimized Priority Warlord trait is worth something. Can a unit perform an action the same turn it deep strikes? If so maybe you can drop that character with a very beefy but shooty kill team and perform an otherwise difficult action.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 00:12:00


Post by: Sterling191


 Chris521 wrote:

This of course, assumes that using the Artificer Bolt Cache doesn't actually turn the storm bolter into a relic.


RAW it does not. It simply adds the SIA weapon ability to any bolt weapons the wielder carries, similarly to how the "X Bolts" special issue wargear item from every chapter does not make a weapon a relic, and can thus be used with certain Relic bolter weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Chris521 wrote:

I'm also trying to decide if the Optimized Priority Warlord trait is worth something. Can a unit perform an action the same turn it deep strikes? If so maybe you can drop that character with a very beefy but shooty kill team and perform an otherwise difficult action.


It depends on the wording of the action, but most of the current ones that I'm aware of start at the end of the movement phase, which happens after the Reinforcements step of that phase, so it would be a legal play.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 01:45:59


Post by: ChobitsCrazy


Niiru wrote:
A tie (no benefit)
Sword win (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)
Tie (Axe if 5++)


In this case point 2 with a 5++ is a tie

Sterling191 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Wound rerolls make things weird, so the conversation shifts considerably if you're looking at Bikes in Kill Teams.


Yeah full re-rolls would swing this more in the favor of swords but at the cost of more points as well. Without the specializations this would be the true comparison.

Ultimately it's really close and probably nit-picky really.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 02:11:45


Post by: Leth


Feel like when it is that situational and swingy you just go for what you like and damn the .25% difference in efficiency.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 04:38:50


Post by: Niiru


 Leth wrote:
Feel like when it is that situational and swingy you just go for what you like and damn the .25% difference in efficiency.



This is one of the things I've liked about the recent changes - All the weapon options actually seem to be valid now.

I'm likely to end up modelling my own stuff anyway, but it's nice to know I can pick whichever option fits the weapon, as they're all ok choices.



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 14:25:06


Post by: LunarSol


I keep seeing the math with Sgts included, but don't we want to forgo the Sgt to make the unit ObSec Troops that get Cover?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 14:32:41


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:
I keep seeing the math with Sgts included, but don't we want to forgo the Sgt to make the unit ObSec Troops that get Cover?


For Veteran Bikes there are reasons to do both Combat Squad shenanigans, as well as running standalone units.

 Leth wrote:
Feel like when it is that situational and swingy you just go for what you like and damn the .25% difference in efficiency.


Indeed. I think the fundamental choice here is between keeping the chainsword or upping to the power weapon, and there are absolutely reasons to go in either direction depending on your army makeup and squad configuration.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 19:08:14


Post by: Vilgeir


Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
I keep seeing the math with Sgts included, but don't we want to forgo the Sgt to make the unit ObSec Troops that get Cover?


For Veteran Bikes there are reasons to do both Combat Squad shenanigans, as well as running standalone units.


New to the Watch, and playing 40k in general, but I've been immersing myself in this hobby from the modeling side for years because I literally cannot get enough.

I'm gathering the reasons you might choose the base unit over a KT combat squad might be the expanded wargear options for the Sergeant and the option for the Attack Bike? I like the idea of the multi-melta there because it seems there's a lot of value in hiding some efficient AT punch within a unit with that much speed. Am I off base there?

I saw that the Sergeant can wield a Storm Bolter, so would that basically mean 8 SIA shots if you equip the Bolt Cache on him with the Sgt Relic Stratagem? I think that's pretty cool, but I'm not exactly a good judge of efficiency yet.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 19:24:00


Post by: Sterling191


Vilgeir wrote:

I'm gathering the reasons you might choose the base unit over a KT combat squad might be the expanded wargear options for the Sergeant and the option for the Attack Bike? I like the idea of the multi-melta there because it seems there's a lot of value in hiding some efficient AT punch within a unit with that much speed. Am I off base there?


That's part of it, correct. The other part is points. If you for a combat squad you *MUST* take five models. If you go for the standalone option, you start 55-60 points cheaper. A cheap as chips MSU bike squad with chainswords and a stormbolter on the Sarge is 95 points. That's 5 points less than an Intercessor squad. For 5 points less you lose a single wound, lose ObSec and the ability to interact with terrain, but gain a point of toughness, you're actually *better* in melee against anything with a 3+ save or better (it's a wash against 4+), and you have vastly superior firepower at slightly shorter range, with more than twice the movement.

Vilgeir wrote:

I saw that the Sergeant can wield a Storm Bolter, so would that basically mean 8 SIA shots if you equip the Bolt Cache on him with the Sgt Relic Stratagem? I think that's pretty cool, but I'm not exactly a good judge of efficiency yet.


This is correct. It's not going to leafblow your opponent off the table, but it allows the pod to punch above its weight just that much more.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/03 21:24:20


Post by: Versatilebeats


The bike ide seems like it’s best for the ammo cache but I think the inceptor may be of interest. 6 sia shots followed by 12 normal shots all at assault. Total of 18 shots where the bikes get 8, 4, 4, 16 shots 8 sia better melee (chainswords), longer range 24 vs 18, less points 120 vs 95....well never mind bikes win out completely unless you are deep striking the inceptors


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 15:20:27


Post by: Sterling191


My personal bias on Inceptors is the plasma variant. 50ppm for 2x 1d3 Blast plasma is very, very good. Anti-tank in a pinch, good against heavy infantry but also terrifying to any unit with 6+ models.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 15:59:47


Post by: Niiru


Not really tactics related, but as this is my work-in-progress of making a tacticool DW vehicle (ATV) I thought I'd share. Feedback always welcome.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417086023009566721/773418475783061564/dw1.png

(discord link cos that's where I last uploaded it, should work, and I didn't want to clutter up the thread with big image files).


On topic - Sterling mentions plasma inceptors, which is a unit/model I've been considering adding as it conveys the ability to fall back and shoot. Are they worthwhile enough as a single model in a unit? (or a 3/2 maybe). Does their crushing charge work in a kill team?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 16:33:25


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


Sterling191 wrote:
My personal bias on Inceptors is the plasma variant. 50ppm for 2x 1d3 Blast plasma is very, very good. Anti-tank in a pinch, good against heavy infantry but also terrifying to any unit with 6+ models.


In 9th ed. plasma inceptors are really good. Sadly we can no longer mix and match plasma and bolter in inceptor units, otherwise it was still possible to go for a plasma unit and a serg with SIA bolters


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 16:37:19


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

On topic - Sterling mentions plasma inceptors, which is a unit/model I've been considering adding as it conveys the ability to fall back and shoot. Are they worthwhile enough as a single model in a unit? (or a 3/2 maybe). Does their crushing charge work in a kill team?


Inceptors lost crushing charge in the Codex (it became a generic strat that all Jump Pack units can deploy). Honestly, I dont see them being a good fit for Indomitor teams as they directly compete with Eradicators and give up their mobility to hide behind Heavy Intercessors. There maaaay be room for one if you dont plan on combat squadding the team to unlock fall back and shoot.

They're similar in function to Biker units, albeit with different nuance and preferred targets. Theyre tough, mobile gunships that can rove around the table and skirmish for objectives, disrupt enemy plans and generally be a nuisance that has to be dealt with.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 16:44:49


Post by: LunarSol


My big fear with them is just that overcharging on 2D3 is very dicey. I've thrown one in a unit and had it burn out before getting engaged more than I'd like to admit.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 16:50:07


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:
My big fear with them is just that overcharging on 2D3 is very dicey. I've thrown one in a unit and had it burn out before getting engaged more than I'd like to admit.


They 100% need reroll support (one of the reasons I rate the jump captain so damn highly), and chances are very good they're going to die (either self-inflicted or otherwise). But what they can do is well worth the risk in my opinion.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 16:52:19


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


Concerning inceptors, I will try the bolter variant in the next match.

I suspect they can be more useful given the new rules for a couple of reasons.

(i) it is easier to make them very tanky. 5++, 5+++ and t5 and w3 require dedicated firepower

(ii) the chief apothecary is amazing on them

(iii) it's easier to give them ob sec via WT or the ancient

(iv) the serg. can take SIA bolters

Probably they are not super competitive, but I am interested in trying out whether they can do some work given the new codex and strats


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 16:53:26


Post by: LunarSol


Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
My big fear with them is just that overcharging on 2D3 is very dicey. I've thrown one in a unit and had it burn out before getting engaged more than I'd like to admit.


They 100% need reroll support (one of the reasons I rate the jump captain so damn highly), and chances are very good they're going to die (either self-inflicted or otherwise). But what they can do is well worth the risk in my opinion.


Yeah, they die. The concern is mostly over putting one in a unit for the fall back strat.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 17:38:38


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:

Yeah, they die. The concern is mostly over putting one in a unit for the fall back strat.


If you're looking to keep an Indomitor team that you dont plan to squad down on the bounce, it's a decent investment. But I likely wouldnt bring plasma for that job.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 17:48:55


Post by: Leth


I just can’t get into the heavy intercessors. Points disappear so quickly and they are just so slow. Maybe if tables are light on terrain I will change my mind.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 17:54:15


Post by: LunarSol


Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:

Yeah, they die. The concern is mostly over putting one in a unit for the fall back strat.


If you're looking to keep an Indomitor team that you dont plan to squad down on the bounce, it's a decent investment. But I likely wouldnt bring plasma for that job.


Yeah, I think I'd only do it if I was planning on running Aggressors in it. What split are you thinking for the Combat Squad version?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 17:54:55


Post by: Niiru


 Leth wrote:
I just can’t get into the heavy intercessors. Points disappear so quickly and they are just so slow. Maybe if tables are light on terrain I will change my mind.


I'm not sure on them myself yet. I have a couple proteus teams in mind, and then after that... not sure.

A spectrus team for DS denial seems like it's needed too.

And i'm likely to want a couple dreads of some description.

And then there's all the buff units like HQs and apothecary (and a judiciar may even be worthwhile?)

Points will be tight.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 18:02:35


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:

Yeah, I think I'd only do it if I was planning on running Aggressors in it. What split are you thinking for the Combat Squad version?


6/4 HInt/Eradicator. If up against things like Knights or Greater Demons (or whatever the big hard target army ends up becoming in 9th) keep them in a single pod for strat efficiency, but otherwise 2 double tapping Eradicators with Heavy Melta in each formation is generally enough to deal with medium armor while still being pants on fire terrifying for heavy infantry, yet still having three HIs to chew through to get to the Eradicators. It also does appear that Specialisms will impart to Combat Squadded elements, but I expect we're going to need an FAQ to confirm/deny that.

Interestingly enough, because of the order of operations, you can use Teleportarium for 1 CP, then combat squad down to have discrete elements without expending additional resources.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 19:12:09


Post by: LunarSol


Sterling191 wrote:

Interestingly enough, because of the order of operations, you can use Teleportarium for 1 CP, then combat squad down to have discrete elements without expending additional resources.


Neat. Definitely a significant benefit.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 19:15:50


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:

Neat. Definitely a significant benefit.


I wouldnt bank on it sticking around for certain. Combat Squadding in general interfaces super weirdly with deployment and transports (you cant put half a squad in a transport and deploy the other half on the board for instance), so the odds of an FAQ to clean it all up is more likely than not in my book.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 19:19:16


Post by: Niiru


 LunarSol wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:

Interestingly enough, because of the order of operations, you can use Teleportarium for 1 CP, then combat squad down to have discrete elements without expending additional resources.


Neat. Definitely a significant benefit.



Really? I thought the combat squadding of units had to happen at the start of the deployment step?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 19:20:29


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

Really? I thought the combat squadding of units had to happen at the start of the deployment step?


Declaring reserves and transports happens before that step in the order of operations.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 19:26:04


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:
Niiru wrote:

Really? I thought the combat squadding of units had to happen at the start of the deployment step?


Declaring reserves and transports happens before that step in the order of operations.


Oh I see, sorry I had a brain moment. For some reason I was thinking you used teleportarium strat on the turn when you bring the unit onto the table, but no you use it pre game. Its never worked that way, I don't know why I was thinking that.

So yeh, interesting, as I did have concerns that I'd only teleport full-sized units, but it does seem like I could break them up for -free-. Wonder if that'll last.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 19:29:44


Post by: LunarSol


Niiru wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Niiru wrote:

Really? I thought the combat squadding of units had to happen at the start of the deployment step?


Declaring reserves and transports happens before that step in the order of operations.


Oh I see, sorry I had a brain moment. For some reason I was thinking you used teleportarium strat on the turn when you bring the unit onto the table, but no you use it pre game. Its never worked that way, I don't know why I was thinking that.

So yeh, interesting, as I did have concerns that I'd only teleport full-sized units, but it does seem like I could break them up for -free-. Wonder if that'll last.


It would definitely be awkward to deploy stuff in reserve and not have the CP to bring it on the table or Vect or what not.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 19:31:02


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

So yeh, interesting, as I did have concerns that I'd only teleport full-sized units, but it does seem like I could break them up for -free-. Wonder if that'll last.


Like I said, there's enough weirdness in several places surrounding units that can split and/or do other things "at the beginning of deployment" that I expect we'll see some blanket FAQs.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 21:36:21


Post by: LunarSol


What are people looking at for the Spectrus KT?

Currently I'm planning on splitting it into 4 Bolt Sniper Eliminators and an Infiltrator with a Helix Array to block for them and hand out DS protection. Probably going to quickly realize it doesn't help much though.

The other half.... 4 Infiltrators and I suppose an Incursor. Probably not worth the mine. I'd prefer a Reiver but :(


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 22:43:30


Post by: grouchoben


Inceptors are great, and I'd take them over eradicators in an Indomitor KT for days, because I can see some use for obsec inceptors, or aggressors that can fallback and shoot. That's because Eradicators in Indomitors suck a little (and I'm not sure I like the look of Indomitor at all tbh.) ...

As far as I can see, the best way to run eradicators is in eradicator teams, with the only exception being if you want to spam high numbers of them, for some reason.

They dont need obsec because they're such HVTs and will be eating shots all day.

They don't need bodies that are almost as expensive tanking for them, when you can just take more eradicators (seriously, 3x3 eradicators is only about 20pts more than a 5-eradicator Indomitor team).

And they don't need to be taken in groups of 5 because that represents a huge decline in returns when every model in the unit (heavy ints included) has to shoot the same target, especially with knights being as naff as they are right now.

So yeah, take them as every other chapter takes them, but just not as well as some of them. If you're looking for where nuDW will shine, this is not it.
/hot-take


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/04 22:55:45


Post by: Sterling191


 grouchoben wrote:
Inceptors are great, and I'd take them over eradicators in an Indomitor KT for days, because I can see some use for obsec inceptors, or aggressors that can fallback and shoot. That's because Eradicators in Indomitors suck a little (and I'm not sure I like the look of Indomitor at all tbh.) ...


Hard disagree. Eradicators on their own waddling up the board in pods of 3 are begging to be shot off the table. In groups of 2 behind a slab of HInts they cause target priority nightmares.

 grouchoben wrote:

They don't need bodies that are almost as expensive tanking for them, when you can just take more eradicators (seriously, 3x3 eradicators is only about 20pts more than a 5-eradicator Indomitor team).


HMR Eradicators are 45 points. HInts are 28. You're looking at an additional entire body you can put between the heavy hitters and the enemy before performance even begins to degrade measurably.

 grouchoben wrote:

And they don't need to be taken in groups of 5 because that represents a huge decline in returns when every model in the unit (heavy ints included) has to shoot the same target, especially with knights being as naff as they are right now.


You're vastly underestimating Eradicators in the anti Heavy Infantry role. Guaranteed 3 damage per unsaved wound is terrifying to Custodes and Gravis targets alike (not to mention things like Bikes or things like Canoptek units which you're going to see everywhere in the Newcron context), and they're targets that HInt weaponry is extremely valuable against. The combination also tunes up exceptionally well if you give them full rerolls with Specialisms.

Again, you were never taking 5 in a single unit anyway, for the same reason you were never taking 6 in a Heavy Support slot without squadding them down.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 00:03:49


Post by: Insularum


Sterling191 wrote:
You're vastly underestimating Eradicators in the anti Heavy Infantry role.

Vaguely related to this, I've been trying to come up with an Indomitor team loadout that isn't just pure Eradicator spam and had come to a similar idea of a back up anti heavy infantry team as the second combat squad (still a bit Eradicator spammy though so might rethink this):

Combat squad 1
2 Heavy Intercessors
3 Eradicators

Combat squad 2
3 Heavy Intercessors
1 Heavy Intercessor with heavy bolter
1 Eradicator with multi melta

Squad 1 will likely just teleport in and be a generic Eradicator pain but with added durability and annoying deployment. Squad 2 though - having just 1 eradicator in there means I don't really have to care about being optimal for the total obliteration rule, a 4 shot MM is fine for anti heavy infantry, and the str 5 bolters are not exactly a rubbish choice if I need to point at a tank. The MM is about the same as what a Heavy Intercessor would cost if they had that option anyway so doesn't exactly seem a waste of points.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 00:10:21


Post by: Sterling191


Trying to grok how to deploy the special weapons for HInts and Eradicators is definitely something I've been struggling with too. I like the configuration as a more "battle line" take, but in that vein I'd probably swap out one Eradicator for another HInt in Squad 1. The whole package (special weapons included) comes out to 2 points less than a straight 6/4 split.

One of the things that Deathwatch are uniquely able to do right now is disseminate capacities out across the army so that not only will not losing a single unit cripple us, but that it can force an opponent to make inefficient or bad decisions.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 06:29:03


Post by: grouchoben


Hey up Sterling, I won't go line by line but I do want to respond to this point, as I think it lies at the heart of why we'd bother with eradicator-Indomitor teams...

Sterling191 wrote:


Hard disagree. Eradicators on their own waddling up the board in pods of 3 are begging to be shot off the table. In groups of 2 behind a slab of HInts they cause target priority nightmares. ... HMR Eradicators are 45 points. HInts are 28. You're looking at an additional entire body you can put between the heavy hitters and the enemy before performance even begins to degrade measurably.


An Indomitor team with 5 erads (1mm) costs us 345pts.
A six-erad squad (2mm) costs us 280pts.

Indomitor has more wounds (30vs18) for sure but it also shoots less melta (14vs11) and costs more (65pts). If you're going heavy on erads as your AT then let's be frank, they're a very good pick for the teleportarium strat.

I also don't see why Indomitors cause 'targetting priority nightmares'. You shoot them lots, they're obsec troops that also contain the game's best AT. Shoot them, shoot them with your anti-SM tech'd guns, and don't stop until they're all dead. Very very (very) much like your priorities vs pure erad squads.

Finally, it's really unclear to me why we'd want to be shooting our Hints at the same target as our erads. Like, every time. Erads are the definition of overkill, their damage spike is outrageous, and having to ping a bunch of S5 shots into the same target is often going to be extremely sub-optimal. If the Hints were contributing anything other than being slightly more efficient meatshields then I'd be interested. As it is, in a faction that has reserve options coming out the wazoo, I don't see a place for them. We can already take 840pts of erads and start them all off the board if we want, a few ablatives doesn't really compare.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 07:29:30


Post by: Leth


6 eliminators can combat squad after being put in teleportation for one cp this is better than the kill team for eradicator delivery.

I am not getting too attached to them though since it is likely they will be nerfed before I get to play anyway.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 09:19:12


Post by: Kdash


 grouchoben wrote:
Spoiler:
Hey up Sterling, I won't go line by line but I do want to respond to this point, as I think it lies at the heart of why we'd bother with eradicator-Indomitor teams...

Sterling191 wrote:


Hard disagree. Eradicators on their own waddling up the board in pods of 3 are begging to be shot off the table. In groups of 2 behind a slab of HInts they cause target priority nightmares. ... HMR Eradicators are 45 points. HInts are 28. You're looking at an additional entire body you can put between the heavy hitters and the enemy before performance even begins to degrade measurably.


An Indomitor team with 5 erads (1mm) costs us 345pts.
A six-erad squad (2mm) costs us 280pts.

Indomitor has more wounds (30vs18) for sure but it also shoots less melta (14vs11) and costs more (65pts). If you're going heavy on erads as your AT then let's be frank, they're a very good pick for the teleportarium strat.


I also don't see why Indomitors cause 'targetting priority nightmares'. You shoot them lots, they're obsec troops that also contain the game's best AT. Shoot them, shoot them with your anti-SM tech'd guns, and don't stop until they're all dead. Very very (very) much like your priorities vs pure erad squads.

Finally, it's really unclear to me why we'd want to be shooting our Hints at the same target as our erads. Like, every time. Erads are the definition of overkill, their damage spike is outrageous, and having to ping a bunch of S5 shots into the same target is often going to be extremely sub-optimal. If the Hints were contributing anything other than being slightly more efficient meatshields then I'd be interested. As it is, in a faction that has reserve options coming out the wazoo, I don't see a place for them. We can already take 840pts of erads and start them all off the board if we want, a few ablatives doesn't really compare.


The way I see it, Sterling is talking about the KT from a TAC approach.

By splitting the KT down into 2 units of 3 HI and 2 Eradicators you basically tell your opponent, “sure, when I am shooting your tanks I’m wasting 3 HI shots, but if you want to kill my 4, 6, 8 etc Eradicators then – good luck!”. (especially if you then drop Transhuman onto one of the squads)

When it comes to the point where there are no tanks left on the table (there might not be any heavy vehicles or monsters to begin with) then these combat squads become heavy infantry/2 wound infantry murderers. The fact that they have obsec and the toughness to stand in the open on objectives and draw a large portion of your opponents firepower is just a bonus.

If you’re going pure DW then I can’t see a reason why you wouldn’t spend 373 points on a squad with 4 Heavy Melta Rifles and Aquila upgrade, standing on your home objective in 2 combat squads with a Chief Apothecary. That still leaves you 1532 points to ram down the throats of your opponents.

My personal approach at the moment is the 10-man KT split into 5 HI and then 1 HI and 4 Eradicators. This is prob going to change to the above though, depending on how much use I will be getting out of using the SIA strat on the 5 HI unit. Also not running the Chief Apothecary, but using a Watch Master as I’m running a sizable force of Raven Guard successors with the CA to provide additional threat and distraction.



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 13:27:58


Post by: Sterling191


 grouchoben wrote:

Indomitor has more wounds (30vs18) for sure but it also shoots less melta (14vs11) and costs more (65pts). If you're going heavy on erads as your AT then let's be frank, they're a very good pick for the teleportarium strat.


For the second time, you're using Eradicators purely in an AT configuration. That's extremely shortsighted and a waste of what the unit can do.

 grouchoben wrote:

I also don't see why Indomitors cause 'targetting priority nightmares'. You shoot them lots, they're obsec troops that also contain the game's best AT. Shoot them, shoot them with your anti-SM tech'd guns, and don't stop until they're all dead. Very very (very) much like your priorities vs pure erad squads.


You're acting like Eradicators are the only dangerous thing that a Deathwatch player can put on the board. They're not. If a player wastes their shooting on a single combat squad, that's fantastic. It means the rest of the army isnt getting shot at.

 grouchoben wrote:
Hey up Sterling, I won't go line by line but I do want to respond to this point, as I think it lies at the heart of why we'd bother with eradicator-Indomitor teams...
Finally, it's really unclear to me why we'd want to be shooting our Hints at the same target as our erads.


Because Eradicators are extremely efficient at killing things other than tanks that S5 weaponry is also very good against. There are entire factions currently rampaging through the game built on that premise.

 grouchoben wrote:

Indomitor has more wounds (30vs18) for sure but it also shoots less melta (14vs11) and costs more (65pts). If you're going heavy on erads as your AT then let's be frank, they're a very good pick for the teleportarium strat.


Yes they are. But unlike naked Eradicators, they dont *require* the Teleportarium strat or Reserves to function in a highly lethal meta. They're flexible, and able to do more than one thing. Thats their strength.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote:

The way I see it, Sterling is talking about the KT from a TAC approach.


Exactly. Standalone Eradicators are good. Too good. Extremely too good. If they shore up a gap in your army? Take them! They're a perfectly legal (albeit criminally undercosted) unit that addresses one of the major needs of the army. But the fact that we can take them in a different formation opens up alternate avenues of play and utilization that no other army has. That's also a good thing.

My primary point in all of this is that Kill Teams can allow specific models to do things that they couldnt otherwise, and contribute to the "greater than the sum of their parts" faction identity that I think a lot of us were drawn to in Deathwatch. Is it necessarily going to be the most points efficient in terms of lethality? No, probably not. But pure lethality doesnt win games in 9th. Being able to do things on the table, to hold objectives, to force bad decisions by your opponent, does. These are tools with which we can create those situations.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 14:24:09


Post by: Vilgeir


Regarding the 6/4 HInt/Erad squad, is that using all Heavy rifles, or is there room to consider the assault variant for mobility and accuracy reasons?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 14:34:31


Post by: Sterling191


Vilgeir wrote:
Regarding the 6/4 HInt/Erad squad, is that using all Heavy rifles, or is there room to consider the assault variant for mobility and accuracy reasons?


I think there's real play for all three HInt weapons. The Executor is scary as hell for Gravis or PM targets (slightly less so for Custodes or Blightlord level targets due to overlapping defensive abilities), while the Hellstorm is a great all rounder brrrrt weapon thanks to its high strength, good range and serious weight of fire, and the basic Heavy Bolt Rifle is in between. I'd personally lean towards either the Heavy or Hellstorm, but the basic one definitely has its place for covering more bases in a list. I feel like the HMR is the auto-take for the Eradicator because of the damage floor (seriously, flat 3 damage minimum going to 5 at half range is just too damn good to pass up), and the fact that if the unit advances they dont get to double tap, which puts them behind most other high strength weapon options for efficiency.

We talked about this in the old thread, but for Eradicators, taking the -1 to hit for moving sounds bad, but the impact of the flat damage bonus more than outweighs the accuracy loss (Goonhammer thread breaking down the math), and is proportionally better cushioned when you apply things like rerolls to the unit.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 16:12:45


Post by: bullyboy


 LunarSol wrote:
What are people looking at for the Spectrus KT?

Currently I'm planning on splitting it into 4 Bolt Sniper Eliminators and an Infiltrator with a Helix Array to block for them and hand out DS protection. Probably going to quickly realize it doesn't help much though.

The other half.... 4 Infiltrators and I suppose an Incursor. Probably not worth the mine. I'd prefer a Reiver but :(


My plan is similar. 4 eliminators with an attached infiltrator, although if I take a Phobos captain, I will take the comms over the helix for reroll 1s to hit.
I'm also not sure if the HW mine is worth it, but the incursor is a few points cheaper and will take up at least one slot.
Shame about the reiver, would be a good addition.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 16:14:44


Post by: Vilgeir


Ah, I don't have the new Codex yet (I ordered it with the Supplement preorder), so I'm guessing now that there's a change between the Eradicator rules I have in Indomitus and the main codex? Would I guess explain my initial confusion about why we wouldn't want the mobility. I agree that the opportunity cost of advancing is too high.

Also, sorry if I rehashed old topics from an older thread - still new and learning. I know that can be annoying at times. Sorry all!


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 16:18:00


Post by: LunarSol


Vilgeir wrote:
Ah, I don't have the new Codex yet (I ordered it with the Supplement preorder), so I'm guessing now that there's a change between the Eradicator rules I have in Indomitus and the main codex? Would I guess explain my initial confusion about why we wouldn't want the mobility. I agree that the opportunity cost of advancing is too high.

Also, sorry if I rehashed old topics from an older thread - still new and learning. I know that can be annoying at times. Sorry all!


There's no change with the Indomintus Eradicators. There's just two additional weapon options in the codex for the unit. A Heavy 1 version of the Melta Rifle that has the same profile with +2 Damage and a Multimelta option.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 16:20:32


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:
Vilgeir wrote:
Ah, I don't have the new Codex yet (I ordered it with the Supplement preorder), so I'm guessing now that there's a change between the Eradicator rules I have in Indomitus and the main codex? Would I guess explain my initial confusion about why we wouldn't want the mobility. I agree that the opportunity cost of advancing is too high.

Also, sorry if I rehashed old topics from an older thread - still new and learning. I know that can be annoying at times. Sorry all!


There's no change with the Indomintus Eradicators. There's just two additional weapon options in the codex for the unit. A Heavy 1 version of the Melta Rifle that has the same profile with +2 Damage and a Multimelta option.


Slight clarification, Total Obliteration (the double tap ability) does not activate if the unit advanced. In Indomitus you could still advance and shoot twice. If we had the old rule, I think there'd be a reasonable argument to make for using basic Melta Rifles (especially with the capacity to give them the Scars CT and ignore the penalty for zooming).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vilgeir wrote:

Also, sorry if I rehashed old topics from an older thread - still new and learning. I know that can be annoying at times. Sorry all!


No apology necessary, there's a lot to cover and nuances like these are important to talk through. Some things from the old thread are still quite relevant and well worth revisiting.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 16:44:17


Post by: LunarSol


Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Vilgeir wrote:
Ah, I don't have the new Codex yet (I ordered it with the Supplement preorder), so I'm guessing now that there's a change between the Eradicator rules I have in Indomitus and the main codex? Would I guess explain my initial confusion about why we wouldn't want the mobility. I agree that the opportunity cost of advancing is too high.

Also, sorry if I rehashed old topics from an older thread - still new and learning. I know that can be annoying at times. Sorry all!


There's no change with the Indomintus Eradicators. There's just two additional weapon options in the codex for the unit. A Heavy 1 version of the Melta Rifle that has the same profile with +2 Damage and a Multimelta option.


Slight clarification, Total Obliteration (the double tap ability) does not activate if the unit advanced. In Indomitus you could still advance and shoot twice. If we had the old rule, I think there'd be a reasonable argument to make for using basic Melta Rifles (especially with the capacity to give them the Scars CT and ignore the penalty for zooming).


Oh, duh. This is what I get for not getting to play them between Indomitus and the Codex


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
What are people looking at for the Spectrus KT?

Currently I'm planning on splitting it into 4 Bolt Sniper Eliminators and an Infiltrator with a Helix Array to block for them and hand out DS protection. Probably going to quickly realize it doesn't help much though.

The other half.... 4 Infiltrators and I suppose an Incursor. Probably not worth the mine. I'd prefer a Reiver but :(


My plan is similar. 4 eliminators with an attached infiltrator, although if I take a Phobos captain, I will take the comms over the helix for reroll 1s to hit.
I'm also not sure if the HW mine is worth it, but the incursor is a few points cheaper and will take up at least one slot.
Shame about the reiver, would be a good addition.


I do really wish the base units for our KTs were a little more flexible. Replacing Infiltrators for Incursors is mostly a min/max wish, but I'd love it if Assault Intercessors could be part of the base 5. I'm trying to decide if the 5 man Outrider squad is really worth it or mostly a gimmick. It's a shame its sort of an all or nothing prospect.

Good call on the Comms guy. Might have to try that out. Planning on using one of the extra Eliminators as a Captain anyway.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/05 18:42:48


Post by: grouchoben


Sterling191 wrote:
My primary point in all of this is that Kill Teams can allow specific models to do things that they couldnt otherwise, and contribute to the "greater than the sum of their parts" faction identity that I think a lot of us were drawn to in Deathwatch. Is it necessarily going to be the most points efficient in terms of lethality? No, probably not. But pure lethality doesnt win games in 9th. Being able to do things on the table, to hold objectives, to force bad decisions by your opponent, does. These are tools with which we can create those situations.


Agreed on all points except that regarding lethality. 40k is still about kill & hold, and the two are intertwined, especially in SM armies. holding objectives (above killing), forcing bad decisions – this sounds like a Daemons kinda playstyle to me. DW needs to leverage its extreme killiness to counterbalance its general low model-count nature, I don't see that changing. I guess I'll leave this discussion here because I do take a lot of your points as correct, and perhaps I'm off on my thinking regarding how combat squadding will open up Indomitus squads to some more advance plays, only experience will tell I guess.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 00:09:29


Post by: Sterling191


 grouchoben wrote:
holding objectives (above killing), forcing bad decisions – this sounds like a Daemons kinda playstyle to me. DW needs to leverage its extreme killiness to counterbalance its general low model-count nature, I don't see that changing.


I fully agree here, and I want to clarify that I'm not talking about a "sit on objectives and solely try to outlast your opponent" approach to list building or gameplay. With our current suite of defensive abilities, I think Deathwatch actually could make a go of that style of list. But that's not the perspective I'm coming from.

We have units that are more killy than they are durable. We have units that are more durable than they are mobile. We have units that are more mobile than they are killy. 9th edition games requires all three capabilities, and finding ways to get those elements on the table is what makes or break an army. Eradicators are an absurdly killy unit, but by their very nature they're not very durable. The ability to make them durable is what they gain in the Indomitor team, at the cost of their raw damage efficiency. That's okay, because even in groups of 1 or 2, they're still terrifying.

 grouchoben wrote:
I guess I'll leave this discussion here because I do take a lot of your points as correct, and perhaps I'm off on my thinking regarding how combat squadding will open up Indomitus squads to some more advance plays, only experience will tell I guess.


Indeed. Practical experience is going to provide us with a wealth of insight that we're barely starting to scratch the surface of.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 00:22:54


Post by: Leth


Yeah, I am reaching the point with my list writing where I can’t do much until I get the units on the table and see how they perform.

So wooo, can’t do anything for a few months.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 17:19:28


Post by: LunarSol


So on that note, what are people looking at for lists at the moment? It's kind of a habit from when options were limited, but right now my lists have mostly been a mix of 4-5 support HQ/Elite characters, a couple Venerables and something like 4-5 full KTs. Also still in the phase where I'm going to jam the Blackstar in there until it gets beaten out of me. Anything else people are fitting in?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 18:22:14


Post by: Leth


my list currently planned is approximately

watchmaster Ultra CP regen, relic spear,
bike chappie master of sanctity and a second warlord trait
jump shield captain with relic blade and dominus aegis

5xassault rifle intercessors and 5x outriders - anti troop strategism
6zinfiltrator, helix upgrade 4x eliminator
5x veterans 3xccw, 2x stormshield

1x3 or 3x1 ATV

1x3 eradicators
1x4 Servitors
1x5 Bladeguard
Callidus assassin
chief apoth

65ish points left over. Ideally as a buffer for any balance changes before I get to play. Also 2-4 CP for warlord traits and other relics.

ATVs, bikes, chaplain and captain are a fast, mobile, but also hard hitting, block. Weapon on the captain is still up in the air. Servitors, callidus and kill teams are there for objectives and board control. While working heir way towards midfield. Eradicators are almost always gonna be in teleport reserves. Basically the plan isn’t necessarily to blow them off the table with sheer amount of possible damage, but to be mobile and be able to have better control over when and where I engage.

Which reminds me, need to find my jump captains who are in storage as well as pry the shoulderpad off my watchmaster(currently raven guard, soon to be dragon guard, unknown founding). Then I will have most of my list ready.

Other thoughts are getting the Phobos captain, which combined with the eliminators should be able to knock out most medium characters.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 18:22:50


Post by: Vilgeir


 LunarSol wrote:
So on that note, what are people looking at for lists at the moment? It's kind of a habit from when options were limited, but right now my lists have mostly been a mix of 4-5 support HQ/Elite characters, a couple Venerables and something like 4-5 full KTs. Also still in the phase where I'm going to jam the Blackstar in there until it gets beaten out of me. Anything else people are fitting in?


I'm really just trying to fit in models I like, so the Stormraven with an Ironclad carrying a KT will be in there, but I can almost guarantee that it will not be very competitive. That's mostly fine, because I think I'll learn how to manage the inherent inefficiencies of it as I learn to actually play. You know, once I'm able to actually see other people again lol


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 19:24:51


Post by: LunarSol


 Leth wrote:

Other thoughts are getting the Phobos captain, which combined with the eliminators should be able to knock out most medium characters.


I just made a Phobos captain out of the Eliminator Sgt myself. He comes with an Instigator and I only need 4 of the 6 models. I also just don't love the official Captain, though I do with the Eliminator Sgt had a more interesting head.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 20:50:36


Post by: Leth


I converted my Phobos teams out of the recon marines from FW. https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Legion-MKIV-Recon-Squad

Which totally was not so I could use the vigilantor as my captain.....nope.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Legion-Vigilator-2018

List building is hard however because we are SO cp heavy and I don’t want to burn too much of that pre-game.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 21:45:54


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


I will try (after the new lockdown) the following list:

WM (the bind that ties + tome)
Librarian (xenopurge)

Chief primaris apothecary (selfless healer)

Company Champion (dominus aegis)

Fortis Killteam
5 abr intercessors + 5 assault hellblasters

Fortis Killteam
5 abr intercessors + 5 assault hellblasters

Spectrus Killteam
5 infiltrators helix + 5 eliminators

4 aggressors
5 inceptors

Redemptor Plasma
Redemptorr Plasma

--------

I am not persuaded about the 5 outriders killteam, but happy to be proven wrong.

Also, I have run some math for the fortis killteam with assault hellblasters and intercessors. They are very good (maybe not be best, but viable)

The plan is as follow:

(i) centre objectives: 10 intercessors + aggressors + 1 redemptor + apothecary + champion with the dominus aegis. The Wm provides re-roll and ob sec (x2 on fortis killteam), the librarian, apothecary and champion 5++, 5+++ and revive.

(ii) 1/2 forward objectives o 1 front e 1 rear covered by the spectrus

(iii) 1 fortis +1 Redemptor in deep strike + inceptors to threaten the back line and other objectives







(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 21:48:02


Post by: Leth


Combat shield isn’t one of the relic swaps is it?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 21:51:58


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


It is!

Forr 55 pts you can have an elite (and not HQ) providing the 5++ centre bubble

I like this option better that sacrificing the WM for a captain or a redundant HQ

Also, the assault hellblasters near the WM with full re-roll are very scary.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/06 22:30:08


Post by: Leth


Well gak, that changes things. Hummmmm


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 00:08:39


Post by: Sterling191


Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Leth wrote:

Other thoughts are getting the Phobos captain, which combined with the eliminators should be able to knock out most medium characters.


Im a massive fan of the Phobos Captain. He's lost one of his major tricks with the way the 9th edition redeploy WLT works, but his ability to hunt characters from range is nearly unparalleled, his anti-deep strike aura can be pushed out to a hilarious 15" range, and he synergizes beautifully with the Spectrus Kill Team. The only reason he isnt an auto take in my opinion is the restriction on Captains in detachments in 9th.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 04:50:27


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:
The only reason he isnt an auto take in my opinion is the restriction on Captains in detachments in 9th.


Why does this matter? Unless I'm missing something that was added in the new supplement (which I haven't seen the datasheets from) a watch master doesn't have the captain keyword. So you can have a master and a phobos captain in the same detachment?

If anything the bigger flaw with the phobos captain, is that he takes up a slot you could have used for a chaplain or librarian, all of which are also pretty valuable.

(But I may be wrong on the watch master, does he have the captain limitation added?)


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 05:31:03


Post by: Leth


He does not, he is unique though.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 07:09:48


Post by: McGibs


What are you guys running on the Phobos Captain, Bolter Cache or Banebolts? I find myself using the +1 to wound to offset the str 4 most of the time anyway, so the Str6 -3AP of the Banebolts is actually better AP (and I could put the bolt cache on a biker sergeant or something)
For my normal marines I usually just run a basic Primaris Captain with the Bellicose rifle and powersword, but for some reason that seems not fancy enough for Deathwatch...

Also Purgatus is a hell of a relic to slap on a Librarian or Apothecary and have them actually contribute to the fight.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 14:47:32


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

Why does this matter? Unless I'm missing something that was added in the new supplement (which I haven't seen the datasheets from) a watch master doesn't have the captain keyword. So you can have a master and a phobos captain in the same detachment?


You can, but remember I also tend to prefer running a jump captain for Beacon duty.

 McGibs wrote:
What are you guys running on the Phobos Captain, Bolter Cache or Banebolts? I find myself using the +1 to wound to offset the str 4 most of the time anyway, so the Str6 -3AP of the Banebolts is actually better AP (and I could put the bolt cache on a biker sergeant or something)


If I'm not running something like Bikers that can get fancy with SIA, the cache. Yes, its a bit overlapping with the Bane Bolts, but the flexibility that it adds is just too good. Sometimes you're going to want to push to damage 5. Sometimes you're going to get more out of negative a -1 to hit and +1 save from light cover, and sometimes that extra 6" range is going to be the difference between being exposed, being in range, or not being able to shoot at all.

I completely understand the argument for the Bane Bolts, and its still a solid upgrade to the character's shooting. The capacity to tote SIA is just better in my experience.

 McGibs wrote:

For my normal marines I usually just run a basic Primaris Captain with the Bellicose rifle and powersword, but for some reason that seems not fancy enough for Deathwatch...


Sadly most of our character shooting options got badly nerfed with the SIA change. Primarch's Wrath and the Bellicos can get some of that back, but honestly I'd be more inclined to just hand out the combi-flamers and call it a day. We're a very CP hungry army now (expect to use BoV pretty much every turn at a minimum), and relic weapons just arent what they used to be.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 15:52:14


Post by: McGibs


How do you push him to damage 5?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 16:08:29


Post by: bullyboy


Sterling191 wrote:
Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).


The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 17:02:43


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


 bullyboy wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).


The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.


Exactly, and that extends also to librarians o apothecaries. I am using a modified primaris lieutenant with the DW champion's head from the upgrade sprue


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 17:49:30


Post by: Sterling191


 bullyboy wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).


The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.


Indeed, my error there. For some reason I had it in my head there was an explicit "other" in the aura rule, which there is not.

 McGibs wrote:
How do you push him to damage 5?


3 base +1 Marksmans Honors (WLT) +1 Vengeance Rounds (Cache).


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 18:13:45


Post by: bullyboy


So, just thinking about my current loadouts, changes etc.

I'm still thinking about keeping a squad of stormbolter vets. Put them in a drop pod, Furor tactics, and maybe drop CF strat on them if facing a really large blob. Turn 1 Tactical doctrine, still a useful unit IMHO.

I have another Proteus kill team with a mix of vets with bolters, a couple hvy weapons etc, and one vanvet for fall back and shoot strat. Now, he used to be a basic chainsword and bp dude, but the bp no longer uses SIA, so wondering what (if any) other weapon I should give him. This team currently going in a Corvus.

Now I just need to see what I want to do with my foot soldiers (maybe supported by a couple of dreads).


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 18:58:41


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


What are your thoughts on the best chapter tactics for "brotherhood of veterans"?

The issue I see is that there are a lot of useful options, but 2 CP is still expensive.

Each choice, therefore, must count.

What are your top picks?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 19:02:15


Post by: McGibs


Anyone considered a Bike Captain with Bolt Cache? With MC bolter instead of a stormbolter, he's got a couple fewer shots, but two of his six bolts are -1ap and 2d natively. Or you could take a stormbolter and he becomes a more effective Vet biker sargent. You could also trade a WL trait to mastercraft his stormbolter.

For chapter vets, it's really situation dependent, which is part of why it's so good. It's also worded to last only for your (player) turn rather than until your next command phase, so a couple traits are straight up not useful (like ravenguard). Hopefully that get's faqed.
My usual picks have been:

Most useful:
Ultramarines to fallback and shoot.
Whitescars to advance/fallback and charge and advance and shoot without penalty.
Blood Angels for +1 wound in combat and +1" advance/charge
Crimson Fists for chewing up big chaff units with bolters (+1 to hit and exploding 6's for bolts)

Situationally cute:
Dark Angels for +1 to hit while stationary, but 2cp you really need the right unit to put it on.
Iron hands to bump up a vehicle's damage chart if you REALLY need it
Flesh Tearers: if you've got like a 2" charge lined up, I guess this is technically better than the BA trait

Not worth it, or don't work:
Space wolves: can't heroically intervene in your own turn, and BA trait is better than the +1 to hit in combat
Imp Fists 2cp not really worth ignore cover and the CF trait is usually better if you're dumping bolts into chaff
Black Templar: use Whitescars or BA instead.
Salamanders: -1ap doesnt take effect and you'd just use a command rerolls to wound instead of spending 2cp
Ravenguard: just don't work until a faq, and even then probobly not worth 2cp
Pretty much all the succsessor traits: the named chapters usually do what they do, but more.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 19:07:15


Post by: Sterling191


 SatanEatSeitan wrote:
What are your thoughts on the best chapter tactics for "brotherhood of veterans"?

The issue I see is that there are a lot of useful options, but 2 CP is still expensive.

Each choice, therefore, must count.

What are your top picks?


Personal Top Choices (albeit largely situational but can be absurdly powerful in those situations): Ultramarines for falling back and shooting. White Scars for advancing and charging (or if you've got a big pod of Assault weapon toting infantry, letting them zoom and fire). Dark Angels for digging in and making every shot count. Flesh Tearers for ripping and tearing while stuck in. Crimson Fists for absolutely leafblowing a horde.

Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Space Wolves lose out because the stratagem only lasts till the end of the turn so the things that trigger in your opponents turn cant activate. Black Templars and Imperial Fists are things we can generally get equivalent abilities from other sources, so I dont expect to see them used.

 McGibs wrote:
Anyone considered a Bike Captain with Bolt Cache? With MC bolter instead of a stormbolter, he's got a couple fewer shots, but two of his six bolts are -1ap and 2d natively. Or you could take a stormbolter and he becomes a more effective Vet biker sargent. You could also trade a WL trait to mastercraft his stormbolter.


It's definitely an interesting thought (and one I've looked at), but my gut is saying that the opportunity cost is just too damn high. What we give up by making a killyer character like this is the capacity to make that character a force multiplier, and I think the latter is far more valuable than the former.

I can see lists with this fella as a secondary character, but that's gonna incur some steep CP investments to make it work.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 19:25:26


Post by: McGibs


My breakdown of captains all seem like pretty high CP investments regardless of what you do with them. I'm still not sure what the best barebones captain is, but most of them seem like you want to invest at least two CP on relics/traits.
I feel like a Biker Captain is just as much a force multiplyer as any of the foot ones, as you can still slap two WL traits on him and have him stick around your CORE units and pump out deadly shots to 24-30" At 100pts, he's also on par, or slightly cheaper than several of the Primaris Captains (cheaper than gravis and relic shield) but can scoot around the board if needed.

What exactly are the high opportunity costs that aren't also shared by other captains?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 19:47:30


Post by: bullyboy


looking for the best match for a MC Xenophase Captain. Probably going to give him a jump pack. of course, the most obvious is Blood Angels (from aJP perspective) but is strike first that great? There is the salamander for the +2S, and I'd also give him a combi-melta. Any other thoughts?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/07 20:28:43


Post by: Leth


For me, the CP to change chapter tactics are mainly going to be on my kill teams that have sp3cialisms or get significant buffs from other sources(such as a chaplain).

Company champion opening up an HQ is pretty huge for HQ slots. Means I can fit a Phobos captain or librarian(most likely a Phobos captain) in which really helps, especially with lots of lists relying on targeted auras.

The issue is that things need to die in one round of shooting, otherwise it is a waste of a shot with apoth healing. Squad of eliminators and the captain should be able to handle most non-invul characters.

Problem is that we have a cap of 3 warlord traits and 3 relics. Running out of warlord traits very quickly between chaplain and apoth.

Still waiting on Forgeworld to see if anything feels solid in it.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/08 00:56:39


Post by: Sterling191


 McGibs wrote:

What exactly are the high opportunity costs that aren't also shared by other captains?


You're effectively giving up all the force multiplication potential (barring reroll 1s) for 6 SIA shots. Using Castellan plus an extra relic means you arent giving him the Beacon, the Tome, the Aegis or the Auspicator, and unless you're burning another CP on him you're not taking any non-self buffing WLTs. Thats two CP minimum plus a precious HQ slot for a handful of non rerollable BS2+ SIA. No 5++, no +1 to hit flyers, no mobility shenanigans, no cover negation, no doctrine manipulation, no super-obsec, etc. Which means if you want any of that, you need to bring in another vector for it, which costs more points, and more CP.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/08 06:11:29


Post by: LunarSol


 bullyboy wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).


The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.


I've got a Power Sword/Storm Shield Blackshield who's looking for the title. I may also just use a Bladeguard or something.

The thought has crossed my mind that it could just be put on a Vet in a unit, but that probably just puts too big of a target on that unit.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/08 06:39:44


Post by: Vilgeir


 LunarSol wrote:

The thought has crossed my mind that it could just be put on a Vet in a unit, but that probably just puts too big of a target on that unit.


I'm not quite seeing how you could do that. Can you help me understand?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/08 06:55:44


Post by: Leth


Sgts can get some of the relics via the strategem. I don’t think the dominus aegis is one of them. Easy mistake to make


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/08 14:40:08


Post by: Sterling191


 Leth wrote:
Sgts can get some of the relics via the strategem. I don’t think the dominus aegis is one of them. Easy mistake to make


Sarges can take the special issue wargear items, or the banebolts or the bolt cache. Nothing else unfortunately.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 00:20:21


Post by: LunarSol


Haven’t had a chance to get my copy yet so I’m mostly running on memory. Whoops.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 02:44:54


Post by: Sterling191


In terms of list building, this is where my brain is initially going:

Spoiler:
+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [109 PL, 7CP, 2,003pts] +++

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [78 PL, 9CP, 1,474pts] ++
Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Angels of Death, Bolter Discipline, Chapter Tactics, Combat Doctrines, Mission Tactics, Shock Assault

+ Configuration [12CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
. Categories: Configuration

Detachment CP
. Categories: Configuration

+ Stratagems [-2CP] +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics [-2CP]
. Categories: Stratagems

+ HQ [11 PL, -1CP, 210pts] +

Captain [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: 1. Vigilance Incarnate, Jump Pack [1 PL, 25pts], Relic blade [10pts], Storm bolter, Stratagem: A Vigil Unmatched [-1CP], The Beacon Angelis, Warlord
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Imperium, Infantry, Captain, HQ, Fly, Jump Pack, Warlord
. Rules: Angels of Death

Librarian [5 PL, 90pts]: 2. Fortified With Contempt, 6. Severance, Boltgun, Force axe
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Imperium, Infantry, Psyker, Librarian, HQ
. Rules: Angels of Death

+ Troops [60 PL, 1,109pts] +

Indomitor Kill Team [25 PL, 383pts]: Malleus [2 PL, 35pts]
. Categories: Infantry, Core, Primaris, Mk X Gravis, Kill Team, Indomitor, Imperium, Deathwatch, Adeptus Astartes, Troops, Malleus
. Rules: Angels of Death, Mixed Unit
. 4x Eradicator w/ Heavy Melta Rifle [12 PL, 180pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Heavy Melta Rifle [20pts]
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant [28pts]: Heavy Bolt Rifle
. . Categories: Intercessors
. 5x Heavy Intercessor w/ Heavy Bolt RIfle [10 PL, 140pts]: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Heavy Bolt Rifle
. . Categories: Intercessors

Proteus Kill Team [18 PL, 368pts]: Deathwatch Teleport Homer [5pts], Furor [2 PL, 35pts], Jump Packs [1 PL, 2pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Deathwatch, Infantry, Core, Kill Team, Proteus, Troops, Melta Bombs, Furor
. Rules: Angels of Death, Mixed Unit
. Deathwatch Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 56pts]: Power axe [3pts]
. . Cyclone missile launcher and Storm bolter [20pts]: Cyclone missile launcher [20pts]
. Deathwatch Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 56pts]: Cyclone missile launcher [20pts], Power axe [3pts]
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Vanguard Veteran [2 PL, 25pts]: 2x Lightning Claw [6pts]
. Watch Sergeant [30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition

Proteus Kill Team [17 PL, 358pts]: Deathwatch Teleport Homer [5pts], Dominatus [1 PL, 25pts], Jump Packs [1 PL, 2pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Deathwatch, Infantry, Core, Kill Team, Proteus, Troops, Melta Bombs, Dominatus
. Rules: Angels of Death, Mixed Unit
. Deathwatch Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 56pts]: Power axe [3pts]
. . Cyclone missile launcher and Storm bolter [20pts]: Cyclone missile launcher [20pts]
. Deathwatch Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 56pts]: Cyclone missile launcher [20pts], Power axe [3pts]
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Vanguard Veteran [2 PL, 25pts]: 2x Lightning Claw [6pts]
. Watch Sergeant [30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition

+ Fast Attack [7 PL, 155pts] +

Veteran Bike Squad [7 PL, 155pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Deathwatch, Bikers, Veteran Bike Squad, Fast Attack
. Rules: Angels of Death
. Veteran Attack Bike [2 PL, 55pts]: Multi-melta [25pts]
. Veteran Biker [30pts]: Astartes Chainsword
. Veteran Biker [30pts]: Astartes Chainsword
. Veteran Biker Sergeant [40pts]: Storm bolter [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [31 PL, -2CP, 529pts] ++
Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Angels of Death, Bolter Discipline, Chapter Tactics, Combat Doctrines, Mission Tactics, Shock Assault

+ Configuration [-2CP] +

Detachment CP [-2CP]
. Categories: Configuration

+ HQ [13 PL, 240pts] +

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 115pts]: Dominus Aegis, Storm bolter [5pts], Storm shield [10pts]
. Categories: Adeptus Astartes, Character, Imperium, Captain, Biker, HQ
. Rules: Angels of Death

Watch Master [7 PL, 125pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Character, Watch Master, Infantry, Adeptus Astartes, Deathwatch, HQ
. Rules: Angels of Death, Special-issue Ammunition

+ Troops [18 PL, 289pts] +

Spectrus Kill Team [18 PL, 289pts]: Venator [1 PL, 25pts]
. Categories: Infantry, Core, Phobos, Primaris, Kill Team, Spectrus, Troops, Smokescreen, Shock Grenades, Venator
. Rules: Angels of Death, Mixed Unit
. 4x Eliminator w/ Bolt Sniper [8 PL, 120pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Bolt sniper rifle, 4x Camo cloak, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. 5x Infiltrator [5 PL, 120pts]: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant [24pts]

Created with BattleScribe


It's likely not super competitive, and goes far too heavy on specialisms, but its an evolution of my FLGS lists from 8th and its in that context that I've been starting from. Spectrus and Indomitor teams are there to be as subtle as a brick through a plate glass window and hunt their preferred targets, while the two Proteus teams are the frontline bruisers that can mix it up at range or in melee (and able to do all sorts of shenanigans with the Beacon and Teleport Homers), supported by mobile character and bike support (Sergeant gets the cache) for objective grabbing and other board control shenanigans. It's tight on CP, but I think that's a necessary buy in. Round out with a WM for doctrine swapping, and Libby for the 5+++ and aura sniping.

Points-wise it's sitting at 1991 as right now Battlescribe doesnt have DW terminators pointed correctly. The second WLT on the Captain will end up being any of Paragon, Ties that Bind, Optimized Priority, or Nowhere to Hide. It's gonna take a *lot* of trial and error to sort out which of that lot is what I want to run.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 03:56:14


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:


Proteus Kill Team [18 PL, 368pts]: Deathwatch Teleport Homer [5pts], Furor [2 PL, 35pts], Jump Packs [1 PL, 2pts]
. Categories: Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Deathwatch, Infantry, Core, Kill Team, Proteus, Troops, Melta Bombs, Furor
. Rules: Angels of Death, Mixed Unit
. Deathwatch Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 56pts]: Power axe [3pts]
. . Cyclone missile launcher and Storm bolter [20pts]: Cyclone missile launcher [20pts]
. Deathwatch Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [2 PL, 56pts]: Cyclone missile launcher [20pts], Power axe [3pts]
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 23pts]: Deathwatch Boltgun, Lightning Claw [3pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Deathwatch Veteran [1 PL, 30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition
. Vanguard Veteran [2 PL, 25pts]: 2x Lightning Claw [6pts]
. Watch Sergeant [30pts]: Deathwatch Combi-flamer [5pts], Storm shield [5pts]
. . Rules: Special-issue Ammunition




I'm curious as to why you chose the loadouts you did? Namely, the boltgun vs combi-flamers?

I assume the thinking was to cut some points, but I wasn't sure why you put the more expensive weapons on the models that are likely to die first? I'd have thought the better combo (aha) would be bolter+shield, and combi+LC, as that means the more expensive weapons are more likely to survive longer.

I'm probably missing something, I'm just wanting to understand the tactic as these killteams are fairly similar to what I was considering.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 13:53:53


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:


I'm curious as to why you chose the loadouts you did? Namely, the boltgun vs combi-flamers?

I assume the thinking was to cut some points, but I wasn't sure why you put the more expensive weapons on the models that are likely to die first? I'd have thought the better combo (aha) would be bolter+shield, and combi+LC, as that means the more expensive weapons are more likely to survive longer.

I'm probably missing something, I'm just wanting to understand the tactic as these killteams are fairly similar to what I was considering.


There isnt a real tactical reason, just force of habit. I ran wall to wall shields in 8th, so individual wargear allocation is something I'm going to have to evaluate and improve on for 9th. Maybe it is better to run the shields on fellas without flamers, I honestly dont know. That's something I expect to get wiser on when Im eventually able to play this list (and the other fifteen or so permutations that are rocketing around in my addled brain).

I 100% could drop a CML from each Proetus team and give everybody who isnt packing one a combi. That's another permutation on the formation.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 14:58:46


Post by: LunarSol


I do appreciate that it feels more like a mix works now than picking one optimal loadout and spamming it until you run out of points. Probably not a feeling that will last, but c'est la vie.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 16:09:13


Post by: Vilgeir


 LunarSol wrote:
I do appreciate that it feels more like a mix works now than picking one optimal loadout and spamming it until you run out of points. Probably not a feeling that will last, but c'est la vie.


I get the feeling that's how it was in 8th? I didn't play then, and thanks to the pandemic I've not been able to play since my intro games at the local Warhammer store, so I haven't actually seen much of Deathwatch at any point. I have seen a few people post lists where everyone is spamming shields and combi-flamers on every single Vet a bit unlike Sterling's, which seem to have a role for these KT members.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 16:21:10


Post by: Sterling191


In fairness, I ran similarly mixed formations in 8th when SB/SS and nothing else was the order of the day. Please dont infer anything from my choice to not go CF/SS x10 other than I find such vanilla builds boring.

If I wanted to not customize my army, I wouldnt be playing Deathwatch after all.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 16:23:17


Post by: Leth


I feel like the proteus kill team is the “gap filler” for your list. They are there to fill whatever role is left from everything else.

So for example I need a block unit to hold the center/protect characters, so I lean towards more stormshields and an emphasis on short range fire power/CC for how I want to plan my kill team that is going to stick as a 10 man. Thinking lots of combi flamers, maybe some terminators with heavy flamers. It really is down to what I feel like my list is lacking and will be the unit where most adjustments are made as I play some games. It enables me to leave the rest of the list mostly untouched.

Does mean I have to prepare and paint 5 of each add on(as well as some magnets) but the versatility will be worth it.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 16:51:12


Post by: Sterling191


 Leth wrote:
I feel like the proteus kill team is the “gap filler” for your list. They are there to fill whatever role is left from everything else.


Indeed. The unit as a whole is super flexible and can be kitted to do nearly anything that you need it to depending on how you adjust the ingredients. I've got a few lists involving literally nothing but Proteus squads and characters because theyre absolutely ace right now.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 17:15:51


Post by: LunarSol


For the most part, the Vets are just better Intercessors at the moment. The only thing really holding back that title is how staggeringly overpriced Stalker Boltguns are. A bare bones Vet unit of DW Bolter/Chainsword is basically a unit of Intercessors and Assault Intercessors in one. Seems.... not bad. Right now I like the idea of a couple Storm Shields to help them hold their ground, but I'm not sure exactly what else to add.

That's the oddity with the Proteus; it doesn't seem to have any pressing need for non-Vet models, though Terminators seem pretty solid carriers for heavy weapons. I think if the Stalkers were a better value, there'd be a really solid option for a long range backfield objective KT of Infernus/Cyclones/Stalkers. As is, I think it can work but 25 PPM on the stalkers is a little.... much, competitively. To start I think they're going to work best as the midfield objective holders, but that build is mostly just Vets at this point. The flamer option is definitely interesting. I also think there's probably a really scary melee build to discover.

So... at the moment I have a few general builds in mind:

Basic: Bolter/Chainsword. A couple guys with shields, maybe a Terminator.

Long Range: Stalkers/Cyclone/Infernus or HB, probably overcosted. :(

Teleported Purge team: Combi-Flamers/Chainswords. A Vanguard with a Hand Flamer is probably actually pretty useful here.

Melee: Haven't figured it out. Vanguards without Jump Packs can shave points here if you're going with something like claws.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 17:21:41


Post by: Ancible


Sterling191 wrote:
In fairness, I ran similarly mixed formations in 8th when SB/SS and nothing else was the order of the day. Please dont infer anything from my choice to not go CF/SS x10 other than I find such vanilla builds boring.

If I wanted to not customize my army, I wouldnt be playing Deathwatch after all.


I cannot agree more with this sentiment. I chose Deathwatch because of the modeling and customization capability while lacking practical gaming experience with them, so I'm glad I'm not the only one that yawns when reading those vanilla builds. Cheers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:

That's the oddity with the Proteus; it doesn't seem to have any pressing need for non-Vet models, though Terminators seem pretty solid carriers for heavy weapons.


I think the inclusion of Terminators, for me, is exciting because of how interesting the Teleport Homer is.

 LunarSol wrote:
I think if the Stalkers were a better value, there'd be a really solid option for a long range backfield objective KT of Infernus/Cyclones/Stalkers. As is, I think it can work but 25 PPM on the stalkers is a little.... much, competitively. To start I think they're going to work best as the midfield objective holders, but that build is mostly just Vets at this point. The flamer option is definitely interesting. I also think there's probably a really scary melee build to discover.


How do folks feel about the Plasma Cannon on these Terminators?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 17:28:18


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:

Long Range: Stalkers/Cyclone/Infernus or HB, probably overcosted.


Dont give Stalkers a second thought. 4 Bolter/Shield + 4 Bolter/LC or Chainsword + 2 CML Termies. Combat squad down, park on home field terrain or objectives, and spray the board down with bolter discipline SIA.



 LunarSol wrote:

Melee: Haven't figured it out. Vanguards without Jump Packs can shave points here if you're going with something like claws.


You're going to want at least one Jump VanVet in a melee team. Utilized correctly they can shave as much as 3" off a charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ancible wrote:

How do folks feel about the Plasma Cannon on these Terminators?


Not for a second worth it. If you want plasma, the rifle at 5 points on a vet is solid gold. If Termies had access to HPCs (that went to Damage 3 in the overcharged profile) it'd be a very different discussion.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 17:43:06


Post by: LunarSol


Sterling191 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:

Long Range: Stalkers/Cyclone/Infernus or HB, probably overcosted.


Dont give Stalkers a second thought. 4 Bolter/Shield + 4 Bolter/LC or Chainsword + 2 CML Termies. Combat squad down, park on home field terrain or objectives, and spray the board down with bolter discipline SIA.

I only consider them because I have 5 painted. They were overpriced at 3; 5 is.... silly.

I need to sit and math out shotguns. They're ALMOST good again (I so miss the original 7 shot selection loadout ). The loss of the Chainsword is probably the killer for them this time around.


Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Melee: Haven't figured it out. Vanguards without Jump Packs can shave points here if you're going with something like claws.


You're going to want at least one Jump VanVet in a melee team. Utilized correctly they can shave as much as 3" off a charge..


That's a good point. Is a biker better at the job given the larger base and access to fall back charge stratagem?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 17:47:13


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:

That's a good point. Is a biker better at the job given the larger base and access to fall back charge stratagem?


Honestly, not really. I vastly prefer the VanVet for lead out duty because he can just leapfrog over things thanks to his pseudo fly, whereas the bike has to go around. The Bike also doesnt hit *nearly* as hard as a twin LC VanVet does if it makes it in. There's absolutely a place for a Bike in the team purely for fall back + charge capacity, but he's nowhere near as good at getting the squad in in the first place.

 LunarSol wrote:

I only consider them because I have 5 painted. They were overpriced at 3; 5 is.... silly.


I'm personally hoping they got the Biker Stalker and Vet Stalker prices backwards. We'll see in a month.




(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 18:03:10


Post by: LunarSol


That would make a lot of sense. Here's hoping!


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 18:10:41


Post by: Leth


If you are a a CC unit, you want a bike, shooting you want a vanguard vet. Terminators are solid as well.

I honestly think you want at least one of each and for a hold the middle kill team you want a mix.

Combined with a chief apoth we can still do a lot of wound shenanigans.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 18:37:37


Post by: Vilgeir


Sterling191 wrote:

Not for a second worth it. If you want plasma, the rifle at 5 points on a vet is solid gold. If Termies had access to HPCs (that went to Damage 3 in the overcharged profile) it'd be a very different discussion.


I honestly thought that's what they were (had no idea there was a difference in profile), so I am disappointed now

At least they look cool. I like the assault cannons too, but I gather those are pretty much the worst thing to commit to points wise.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 20:04:40


Post by: Sterling191


 Vilgeir wrote:

At least they look cool. I like the assault cannons too, but I gather those are pretty much the worst thing to commit to points wise.


Im of very mixed opinions on the AC. Its not too expensive, has a decent range and puts out a good pile of mid-strength shots, so on paper it looks like it'd be a decent pick for moderately up-gunning a model. I just dont know that it does enough over the basic storm bolter to justify the points cost, especially with the CML sitting right over there for a possible 16 hordesweeping shots (in some situations guaranteed thanks to blast).

I can see them doing work, especially with wound reroll support, they're just not my particular cup of tea I guess is the best way to describe them.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 20:53:55


Post by: Vilgeir


Sterling191 wrote:
 Vilgeir wrote:

At least they look cool. I like the assault cannons too, but I gather those are pretty much the worst thing to commit to points wise.


Im of very mixed opinions on the AC. Its not too expensive, has a decent range and puts out a good pile of mid-strength shots, so on paper it looks like it'd be a decent pick for moderately up-gunning a model. I just dont know that it does enough over the basic storm bolter to justify the points cost, especially with the CML sitting right over there for a possible 16 hordesweeping shots (in some situations guaranteed thanks to blast).

I can see them doing work, especially with wound reroll support, they're just not my particular cup of tea I guess is the best way to describe them.


That makes sense. I think I'm just drawn to them thanks to the unique look of the Dark Angel and Space Wolf bits, both of which will make mighty fine additions to a Kill Team thematically. They're going into the collection anyway, but using them in a game may be a little rare...

It does annoy me that a weapon called an assault cannon isn't an assault weapon, but I suppose there's going to be quite a few examples of minor annoyances as I explore the game and faction more. Thanks for the input!

I do have a super weird question for you fine folks regarding sourcing bits. I'm not yet certain how adventurous I can get with modeling. I've gathered that the community can be reasonably strict on a model actually carrying the correct bits, and I'm interested in those combi-weapon units, but the Kill Team unit I just purchased only comes with 2 of those weapons. I see the Sternguard Veteran box has a whole boatload of them, but they have a different design, most notably missing the unique Deathwatch shot selectors and scopes on the boltgun half. Is that going to be an issue if I use those Sternguard pieces in place of the Deathwatch bit? I think that Sternguard box will be a much more reliable way to source those bits after all, but I don't want to be using an unacceptable replacement part for when I do have the ability to start gaming. Any insight on this from the community would certainly help.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 21:06:17


Post by: Niiru


 LunarSol wrote:


I need to sit and math out shotguns. They're ALMOST good again (I so miss the original 7 shot selection loadout ). The loss of the Chainsword is probably the killer for them this time around.



This is pretty much where I am atm.

Shotguns as a weapon option are, actually, not bad. The issue, as you say, is you lose melee/shield in your offhand, so the opportunity cost is too high. But I still want to like them, and am trying to find a place for them.



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 21:36:23


Post by: grouchoben


I think combiflamer is pretty hard to beat now for a midfield DS vet team. 2 sia shots and 1d6 autohits, with doctrine up, is a hefty little sting for a single marine, plus you have your offhand to equip a free chainsword or a shield. When it all flops out I expect this kind of unit to get a lot of play in DW armies, and that makes me happy.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 21:43:50


Post by: LunarSol


 Vilgeir wrote:

I do have a super weird question for you fine folks regarding sourcing bits. I'm not yet certain how adventurous I can get with modeling. I've gathered that the community can be reasonably strict on a model actually carrying the correct bits, and I'm interested in those combi-weapon units, but the Kill Team unit I just purchased only comes with 2 of those weapons. I see the Sternguard Veteran box has a whole boatload of them, but they have a different design, most notably missing the unique Deathwatch shot selectors and scopes on the boltgun half. Is that going to be an issue if I use those Sternguard pieces in place of the Deathwatch bit? I think that Sternguard box will be a much more reliable way to source those bits after all, but I don't want to be using an unacceptable replacement part for when I do have the ability to start gaming. Any insight on this from the community would certainly help.


Sternguard make fantastic Vets. I get compliments about mine all the time.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 22:40:15


Post by: Sterling191


 grouchoben wrote:
I think combiflamer is pretty hard to beat now for a midfield DS vet team. 2 sia shots and 1d6 autohits, with doctrine up, is a hefty little sting for a single marine, plus you have your offhand to equip a free chainsword or a shield. When it all flops out I expect this kind of unit to get a lot of play in DW armies, and that makes me happy.


It's the premier ranged weapon in the Veteran/Proteus arsenal in my estimation for 9th. The flamer portion alone is equivalent in firepower to a storm bolter, and then you've got the SIA to go with it plus the unallocated second gear slot.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 23:37:06


Post by: lessthanjeff


Am I misreading that a Proteus Kill Team can't have a black shield so it's a choice between vanguard vet or black shield?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 23:46:13


Post by: Leth


Fallback and shoot makes that a no brainer for me.

Here is my current proteus kill team

5x vets, 5x combi flamer, 4x stormshield, 1x LC on SGT(might give this damage 2).
1x vanguard vet with lightning claw and stormshield
1x Bike chainsword
3x terminators 2x heavy flamer/power fist - third is up in the air.

Idea is it goes midfield with my Watchmaster and apothecary while the r3st of the army is quick and flanks. Part of me wants to swap from heavy flamers to assault cannons to get more from the Watchmaster, but it still applies for CC so it’s a tough call.

In reality this unit is mainly there to deal with non-marines while also still doing decent damage to marines.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/09 23:47:44


Post by: Rivener


Shotguns are surprisingly delightful in terms of math. They outperform SIA boltguns across the board so long as you can get into range. Obviously Combiflamers doubling up on profiles outshoots the Wyrmsbreath at 12”, and does so in a point efficient manner.

Where things get really fun is with the xenopurge profile. You want to wax enemy MEQ on the cheap? That’s how you do it. Combi grav and overcharged combi plasma outshoots that profile in terms of point efficiency against MEQs in certain buff situations, but again, if you want a unit that performs at the cheapest price point without needing rerolls while being able to smack around hordes and/or MEQ, shotguns do work.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 00:00:03


Post by: Leth


I think shotguns would be fantastic if they didn’t cost you that second hand slot. If you have a delivery system where you aren’t worried about getting shot up turn 1 or 2.

I also think a mastercrafted shotgun is hilarious. Especially since the sarge can still take a combat shield with it,


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 00:58:08


Post by: Rivener


Part of me thinks the whole “two hand slots” thing won’t last once some tournaments get going. While wildly thematic, it just allows some fundamentally overpowered stuff, all of it related to the storm shield+ranged option.

For example, veterans can use storm shields and boltguns. This is probably the least abusive setup, yet it costs 5 points more than Intercessors, who are universally considered the gold standard of troop choices, and conveys a 2+/4++, with a weapon that is nearly identical functionally to a bolt rifle.

A 2000 point list can bring about 70 of those guys with some room for HQs. That’s 140 of the hardest wounds to take off the table imaginable, with legitimate lethality at range. Mix in some VanVets to let them fall back and shoot, too, just in case you think you’ll get killed in melee.

Now do the same thing, but with plasma guns. You’re basically hellblasters with one worse AP that get a 2+/4++ and are cheaper.

Now do the same thing, but with meltas. Oh they may not outdamage Eradicators point for point, but they sure do outlive them every day of the week.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 01:08:22


Post by: Leth


At the end of the day the points add up and every death hurts more than in other lists. I expect a lot of xenos/heretic weapons to go damage 2 over time.

We are an elite army, but we certainly pay for it. It might be a problem in the future but I don’t think overall it will be since at the end of the day we will still be a few dice rolls away from collapse while armies with more bodies are not as reliant on any specific roll.

However I also have to accept that I have not gotten to play since marines went to 2 wounds and the new stormshields so I don’t have a real feel for how durable they are now.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 10:51:55


Post by: lessthanjeff


For the fallback and shoot, I figured if it was ever really important then I could take the Ultramarines chapter tactic on the unit that needs it and not need to add a vanguard vet to every unit.

For durability, the most recent event in my area had some lists with 80ish heavy bolter shots, so yeah, I expect a lot of vets to die.

I also haven't played in almost a year though so I feel out of practice and out of the loop on what is good. I was leaning towards one unit of 6 combi flamers and chainswords and 4 stormshields and boltguns with another unit of 6 combi plasma and chainswords and 4 stormshields and boltguns. I wanted to try 10 intercessors with autobolt rifles potentially getting 60 shots, but I'm almost tempted by trying 5 eradicators mixed in. (edit: I meant hellblasters)


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 15:32:13


Post by: LunarSol


Yeah, the two handed stuff has been around... forever and never breaks anything. Boyz before toyz is a real thing and at 5 points, you have to remember every 4 shields is another Intercessor. Worth it? Probably, but there's probably an optimal point in the middle.

GW has also freed itself of costing equipment the same across the board, so most likely if it were a real problem they'd just make them 7 for Vets or something like that.

You also have to remember that taking the Vets has its own drawbacks, like not getting to ignore AP-1 or not having global fall back and shoot, or advance and charge, etc, etc, etc. Our tactic isn't bad, but its no where near the force multiplier of its equivalents against most armies.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 15:52:45


Post by: grouchoben


 Leth wrote:
Fallback and shoot makes that a no brainer for me.

Here is my current proteus kill team

5x vets, 5x combi flamer, 4x stormshield, 1x LC on SGT(might give this damage 2).
1x vanguard vet with lightning claw and stormshield
1x Bike chainsword
3x terminators 2x heavy flamer/power fist - third is up in the air.


Mind if I ask the purpose of the 3 termies in the team? Hefy points increase and not much gained, or am I missing something?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 16:25:49


Post by: Leth


Teleport, source of damage 2, Wound soak with the apoth nearby to heal or Rez. More flamers.

I am still trying to figureout what I want to do with the unit since I envision it as the middle of the table bunker.

However with plasma inceptors being so popular it might make sense to keep everything under 6 models.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 17:21:37


Post by: LunarSol


 Leth wrote:
Teleport, source of damage 2, Wound soak with the apoth nearby to heal or Rez. More flamers.

I am still trying to figureout what I want to do with the unit since I envision it as the middle of the table bunker.

However with plasma inceptors being so popular it might make sense to keep everything under 6 models.


Combat Squad seems to be the solution to pretty much every problem.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 20:22:34


Post by: lessthanjeff


 LunarSol wrote:
Yeah, the two handed stuff has been around... forever and never breaks anything. Boyz before toyz is a real thing and at 5 points, you have to remember every 4 shields is another Intercessor. Worth it? Probably, but there's probably an optimal point in the middle.

GW has also freed itself of costing equipment the same across the board, so most likely if it were a real problem they'd just make them 7 for Vets or something like that.

You also have to remember that taking the Vets has its own drawbacks, like not getting to ignore AP-1 or not having global fall back and shoot, or advance and charge, etc, etc, etc. Our tactic isn't bad, but its no where near the force multiplier of its equivalents against most armies.


On the pro side, if I'm comparing our vets to another armies intercessors, we do get SIA to adapt to our target, a free astartes chainsword for both an additional attack and ap -1, reroll 1's to wound against a chosen unit slot, and the choice of which doctrine to use and when (plus, we can snag those clutch traits from white scars, blood angels, or ultramarines when it really is valuable and most opponents would not be ready for something like an advance and charge or fall back and shoot). I feel our vets actually have a pretty sizable advantage over the troops of other armies even with their traits factored in.

That's a good point about the stormshield and weapon costs adding up quickly though. Maybe I should just go for more vets because I could run another squad by cutting the bells and whistles and focusing on boltguns and chainswords.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/10 22:50:37


Post by: LunarSol


 lessthanjeff wrote:

That's a good point about the stormshield and weapon costs adding up quickly though. Maybe I should just go for more vets because I could run another squad by cutting the bells and whistles and focusing on boltguns and chainswords.


I think a couple of Shields is good, but I'd stick to 1-2 to absorb some early damage and let the survivors finish things off with chainswords.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 00:23:37


Post by: lessthanjeff


I was just doing some math-hammer to identify efficient loadouts for killing other marines (since I kinda feel like that's all that anyone is playing right now) and I figured I'd share what I found with you guys. Feel free to check my numbers in case I made any mistakes. It was kind of just a musing at first but I kept adding more weapon loadouts to compare as I went along so I didn't pick a point value that would have been the exact same for every unit.

Following are the units and the number of marines (tactical/intercessor) you'd expect to kill in shooting without any other special rules coming into play.
10 combi-flamers (250 points): 4.6 marines
12 deathwatch bolters (240 points): 2.6 marines
8 combi-plasma (240 points): 6.8 marines
10 plasma (250 points): 9 marines

Notes:
When combi-weapons were involved, I was firing both profiles so -1 BS.
For bolter shots, I used vengeance rounds assuming those would be the most efficient.

Right now this has me thinking I'll run 1 unit of just plasma guns (not combi) with chainswords (and probably a couple shields) as an elite unit killer and then another unit loaded up with combi-flamers and chainswords because those do still put out great numbers against hordes. I'm just not sure that's a common threat right now.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 01:18:14


Post by: Niiru


 lessthanjeff wrote:
I was just doing some math-hammer to identify efficient loadouts for killing other marines (since I kinda feel like that's all that anyone is playing right now) and I figured I'd share what I found with you guys. Feel free to check my numbers in case I made any mistakes. It was kind of just a musing at first but I kept adding more weapon loadouts to compare as I went along so I didn't pick a point value that would have been the exact same for every unit.

Following are the units and the number of marines (tactical/intercessor) you'd expect to kill in shooting without any other special rules coming into play.
10 combi-flamers (250 points): 4.6 marines
12 deathwatch bolters (240 points): 2.6 marines
8 combi-plasma (240 points): 6.8 marines
10 plasma (250 points): 9 marines

Notes:
When combi-weapons were involved, I was firing both profiles so -1 BS.
For bolter shots, I used vengeance rounds assuming those would be the most efficient.

Right now this has me thinking I'll run 1 unit of just plasma guns (not combi) with chainswords (and probably a couple shields) as an elite unit killer and then another unit loaded up with combi-flamers and chainswords because those do still put out great numbers against hordes. I'm just not sure that's a common threat right now.



Interesting. I assume all of these were done at 12" range? (rapid fire for plasma, etc)

I decided to try to do the same calculation for the Shotgun.

12 Shotguns (xenopurge I assume is best) (240pts) = 4 marines.

So yeh they don't seem to compete. Though plasma has the issue of being able to suicide.

It does make me consider going pure plasmaguns (or even meltaguns) and just forgetting SIA/boltguns even exist.


On another note, are there any benefits to other units we have available through the main codex now? I wondered about the company vets, as they are essentially veterans (obviously) but with the ability to bodyguard characters and unlock detachment-slot-free apothecary/champion/ancients.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 02:06:44


Post by: lessthanjeff


Yeah, I was calculating 12” for rapid fire because I figured that would probably be a unit I deepstrike in. Doing some more comparisons, it may be better to just go plasma inceptors though. 2 plasma vets costs the same as 1 plasma inceptor but they would get free deepstrike and against units of 6+ the blast rule would mean more shots.

I got the same results you did for the shotgun math, but for salt in the wound, the plasma vets would also get a free chainsword for an extra attack and ap making them better in melee too.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 02:14:33


Post by: Niiru


 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, I was calculating 12” for rapid fire because I figured that would probably be a unit I deepstrike in. Doing some more comparisons, it may be better to just go plasma inceptors though. 2 plasma vets costs the same as 1 plasma inceptor but they would get free deepstrike and against units of 6+ the blast rule would mean more shots.

I got the same results you did for the shotgun math, but for salt in the wound, the plasma vets would also get a free chainsword for an extra attack and ap making them better in melee too.


Inceptors suiciding themselves would be even more of a loss though.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 02:20:14


Post by: Runt Nosher


I had my first game against Necrons today and felt pretty woefully outmatched. Anything D2 I brought was largely wasted except against Scarabs, but that’s what he wanted me to shoot I think. The 20 Warrior + Veil combined with the Warden fall back and shoot really allowed him to capitalize on the middle of the board after rolling up first turn. At 1500 points I didn’t feel like I had the assets to cover my own objective in the No Mans Land scenario. I had 2 HQ’s and 10 sword/board marines in a Blackstar which I believe is a potential misstep even with the fancy Stealth stratagem.

I liked the Shotguns, I took 5 combat squadded in my teleportarium and they did a good job tying up an objective and mucking up some scarabs. I did have generally poor rolls though but I think having a terminator librarian drop in to 5+ FNP something supported by the Dominus Aegis is where it will be at, but finding the balance between shooting and melee is hard. I didn’t find the Stormshields dispersed throughout units as handy as before either and I’m feeling like the lists I make for fighting marines and Custodes opponents which focus on increasing damage per shot may not work that well vs other competitive players running less of those multi wound models. I used most of my CP’s rerolling charges and using the Overkill strat to lower RP, and on my Dreadnaught for Wisdom of Ancients.

I think a Chapter Champion with the Warlord trait could really help my in your face play style, I like the relic sword but have heard the talk of putting the Aegis here and that sounds really fun. Tomorrow I might try that out in a 2k game. I was mostly out of options on the table by turn 3 but I had 600+ points tie up in my Corvus and that seemed like my downfall.

I am really confused how to build Proteus teams at this stage honestly. I’ve been thinking 8 vets + 2 Terminators, 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Storm Shield and 2 Mooks. Can I split this 4 vets/1 Termi? I thought this might help with my back line scoring while giving me late game options to pull them into the fight with a homer or Beacon?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 14:48:25


Post by: Sterling191


Runt Nosher wrote:

I am really confused how to build Proteus teams at this stage honestly. I’ve been thinking 8 vets + 2 Terminators, 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Storm Shield and 2 Mooks. Can I split this 4 vets/1 Termi? I thought this might help with my back line scoring while giving me late game options to pull them into the fight with a homer or Beacon?


Yes, that is an entirely legal combat squad configuration. I've been eyeballing similar configurations for my full Proteus list.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 15:11:16


Post by: LunarSol


Given we pretty much take every slot as Troops, I haven't found much need to worry about slots in general.

One thing I'd caution about Plasma is that while they're efficient against most marines, that efficiency plummets against Gravis, which might really kick off once the Heavies get released.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 15:26:13


Post by: Sterling191


 LunarSol wrote:

One thing I'd caution about Plasma is that while they're efficient against most marines, that efficiency plummets against Gravis, which might really kick off once the Heavies get released.


True, but remember that we do have access to some D3 plasma in Dreadnoughts (of several flavors) as well as Hellblasters. I dont know that any infantry options can displace the HMR Eradicator for Gravis hunting, but the mechanized options are very much there.

It's one of the reasons I'm such a massive fan of the Plasma Redemptor. That thing is made to chew up Gravis for breakfast.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 15:26:31


Post by: Leth


I personally am not a fan of anything that will kill the user, efficiency be darned.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 15:46:33


Post by: lessthanjeff


I guess I like to get all the kills on friendly and hostile models myself. Grew up playing skaven.

I considered hellblasters, but a vet with plasma gun and chainsword for 8 points less while having a higher leadership, more attacks in melee, and a better ap in melee just made it a no go for me.

I am worried about the rise of 3 wound models in eradicators, heavy intercessors, blade guard vets, and inceptors though. Especially because they’ll become more and more prevalent when people can buy them separately and after they’ve had time to paint them. I haven’t found any solutions I love myself yet other than the occasional thunder hammer.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 16:10:51


Post by: Sterling191


 lessthanjeff wrote:

I considered hellblasters, but a vet with plasma gun and chainsword for 8 points less while having a higher leadership, more attacks in melee, and a better ap in melee just made it a no go for me.


For general battle-line troopers I fully agree. The curveball comes from the Heavy Hellblasters (which remember can be tucked into Fortis Teams). Their super long range, ability to hit S9 and now flat 3 damage makes them effectively super-reliable lascannons. They have a role for heavy infantry hunting, but can also do serious work against Gravis and Custodian targets.

Again, I dont think they're doing the job better than HMR Eradicators, but the calculus may change when Eradicators get their eventual (and frankly well needed) nerf.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 18:33:40


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


[quote ]For general battle-line troopers I fully agree. The curveball comes from the Heavy Hellblasters (which remember can be tucked into Fortis Teams). Their super long range, ability to hit S9 and now flat 3 damage makes them effectively super-reliable lascannons. They have a role for heavy infantry hunting, but can also do serious work against Gravis and Custodian targets.

Again, I dont think they're doing the job better than HMR Eradicators, but the calculus may change when Eradicators get their eventual (and frankly well needed) nerf.


I am, respectfully, of another mind. In my opinion the sleeper version of hellblasters is the assault variant.

I have run some math hammer, and the vs. gravis, for instance, assault HB kill 3 models, while H HB kill 2. Granted, at a shorter range.

Assault HB have the potential of doing each a whopping 6 damage (!), and they can move and still shoot. With 5 ABR intercessors and the right buffs they seem to me to be fast, and more deadly than the RF or Heavy version. Teleporting a 10 man fortis killteam is scary.

But I would consider the heavy version for the backfield. Only, if you are willing to invest in them, then why not investing in 5 eliminators with las-fusils?







(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 18:41:14


Post by: Sterling191


 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

I am, respectfully, of another mind. In my opinion the sleeper version of hellblasters is the assault variant.


For heavy infantry hunting, maybe. For hunting T7 and T8 targets, absolutely not. They're different tools for very different jobs.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

But I would consider the heavy version for the backfield. Only, if you are willing to invest in them, then why not investing in 5 eliminators with las-fusils?


Because Las Fusil Eliminators are more expensive, cannot pair with an ablative model that shares their range profile, and the loss of a point of strength and a point of AP is extremely significant.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 20:42:48


Post by: lessthanjeff


I did consider trying the hellblasters mixed in with intercessors a couple pages back because I also like the autobolt rifles, but I've been less inclined to use them now that they've lost SIA. I just can't shake the thought that the vets make better ablative wounds with their SIA, superior melee, and durability options (/storm shields). The assault hellblaster weapon is nice, but is it worth 8 points per model and decreased melee effectiveness?

The vets have been especially appealing to me because of how hard they still hit in melee with an extra attack and ap over their primaris counterparts while still being shooting allstars.

I'll look into the eliminators with las fusils because you could combat squad 1 infiltrator with some eliminators for a good backfield unit that blocks deepstrikes and is also pretty tough against shooting attacks. I think I like that more than the terminators and vets with missile launchers I've seen some people suggesting.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 20:57:44


Post by: LunarSol


Spectrus KTs are pretty great, but I can't see wanting more than one of them. The double anti DS bubble is really nice, but otherwise, the non-Eliminator half is paying a lot for forward deployment and little else. I think there's plenty of room for the Cyclone Proteus Combat Squad in the same army.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 20:58:59


Post by: Niiru


 lessthanjeff wrote:
I did consider trying the hellblasters mixed in with intercessors a couple pages back because I also like the autobolt rifles, but I've been less inclined to use them now that they've lost SIA. I just can't shake the thought that the vets make better ablative wounds with their SIA, superior melee, and durability options (/storm shields). The assault hellblaster weapon is nice, but is it worth 8 points per model and decreased melee effectiveness?

The vets have been especially appealing to me because of how hard they still hit in melee with an extra attack and ap over their primaris counterparts while still being shooting allstars.

I'll look into the eliminators with las fusils because you could combat squad 1 infiltrator with some eliminators for a good backfield unit that blocks deepstrikes and is also pretty tough against shooting attacks. I think I like that more than the terminators and vets with missile launchers I've seen some people suggesting.



Depending on if they're worth taking over our other HQ options, another thing to keep in mind is that you can give the eliminators a single comms array, letting them benefit from a phobos captain wherever they are on the board. Hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, isn't bad at all. (But again, this relies on having a phobos captain.)

I'm not sure if there's room for that captain though. We already need/want - a watchmaster, a librarian, someone with a shield for the aegis, maybe an apothecary... Not sure how many heroes we can hammer into a single army list!


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 21:00:17


Post by: SatanEatSeitan


Sterling191 wrote:
 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

I am, respectfully, of another mind. In my opinion the sleeper version of hellblasters is the assault variant.


For heavy infantry hunting, maybe. For hunting T7 and T8 targets, absolutely not. They're different tools for very different jobs.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

But I would consider the heavy version for the backfield. Only, if you are willing to invest in them, then why not investing in 5 eliminators with las-fusils?


Because Las Fusil Eliminators are more expensive, cannot pair with an ablative model that shares their range profile, and the loss of a point of strength and a point of AP is extremely significant.


I think you are indeed right about AHB vs. T7 and T8.

As for the HHB vs las fusils eliminators, your points are, again, all compelling.

Maybe I just cannot image leaving 5 more troops in the backfield to provide ablative wounds for HHBs. But I cannot play right now due to the lockdown, and thus mine are just theories and falsifiable hypotheses! Surely, now I am more intrigued by the heavy hellblasters.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 21:08:16


Post by: Niiru


Are infiltrators/incursors not good enough on their own merits to warrant running multiple spectrus teams?

I like the fluff and models, but I'm not sure Eliminators are quite good enough... though it might be because I'm used to Eldar Rangers as sniper units (and they're also not worth their points)


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 21:44:02


Post by: Insularum


Sterling191 wrote:
 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

I am, respectfully, of another mind. In my opinion the sleeper version of hellblasters is the assault variant.


For heavy infantry hunting, maybe. For hunting T7 and T8 targets, absolutely not. They're different tools for very different jobs.

Perhaps, but it is trivially easy to get full rerolls on both hits and wounds. A general purpose high ROF/decent damage platform can be made to be good vs any target profile.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 22:23:22


Post by: LunarSol


Niiru wrote:
Are infiltrators/incursors not good enough on their own merits to warrant running multiple spectrus teams?

I like the fluff and models, but I'm not sure Eliminators are quite good enough... though it might be because I'm used to Eldar Rangers as sniper units (and they're also not worth their points)


They're okay, but you're paying a lot for Omni Scramblers and concealed positions. You pay 24 PPM for an intercessor who trades -1 AP and 6" range for auto wounding on 6's which isn't a great comparison and we have the option for Vets on top of that. They're not bad, but I think they're a little too pricey to make up a significant part of your force. In terms of Scramblers, we're at an advantage being able to take 2 bubbles for 15 points less than other marines.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/11 22:40:47


Post by: Niiru


 LunarSol wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Are infiltrators/incursors not good enough on their own merits to warrant running multiple spectrus teams?

I like the fluff and models, but I'm not sure Eliminators are quite good enough... though it might be because I'm used to Eldar Rangers as sniper units (and they're also not worth their points)


They're okay, but you're paying a lot for Omni Scramblers and concealed positions. You pay 24 PPM for an intercessor who trades -1 AP and 6" range for auto wounding on 6's which isn't a great comparison and we have the option for Vets on top of that. They're not bad, but I think they're a little too pricey to make up a significant part of your force. In terms of Scramblers, we're at an advantage being able to take 2 bubbles for 15 points less than other marines.


How would you do it? I'd have thought the 'best use' of the points would be to have:

4x eliminators (snipers or las?) with 1x infiltrator in one combat squad

And then 4x infiltrators plus.... what? a 5th infiltrator? Or is there a better thing to chuck in there? Or would it be better to go with 3x infiltrator and 2x eliminator in each squad? Feels like small units of snipers won't really accomplish much.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 00:52:19


Post by: Leth


I am running 5x eliminators, 4x regular and a helix.

The extra eliminator is worth it for just 6 points since it gets the better rules anyway.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 01:20:50


Post by: Niiru


 Leth wrote:
I am running 5x eliminators, 4x regular and a helix.

The extra eliminator is worth it for just 6 points since it gets the better rules anyway.


How do you mix the combat squads though? (assuming you do combat squad them)

Also - How do wargear rules work for models in kill teams? For example, the rules just say you can add "5 of the following", and you pick a terminator or an eliminator or whatever is relevant to the kill team. But what if the terminator wargear says something like "1 terminator can be equipped with a teleport homer". Do you have to follow those limitations? I'd assume yes, but you're kinda picking multiple individual models and choosing their wargear one at a time, and then putting them in a killteam.

Looking closer, the rules actually specify certain wargear changes, in that eradicators can be equipped with heavy melta on a model-by-model basis instead of the entire unit... so I guess they anticipated the question in that case. But what about the things that aren't mentioned.

Seem the teleport homer wording is "this unit can be equipped with one", so it isn't even model-specific. So I'm not even sure how you're giving it to a proteus team, unless the supplement has better wording on the rules (I don't have the supplement yet).

But wording on things like the Incursor haywire mine says "1 incursor can be equipped with 1 mine", and I'm wondering if you can pick two of those incursors, and so you can combat squad them into two separate teams. Not sure if there's any benefit to this, but just trying to figure out the wordings on the rules to see whats available.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 01:40:52


Post by: lessthanjeff


I’m not impressed with any of the numbers from las fusil eliminators dealing with gravis units, but a centurion assault squad seems interesting.

3 damage in melee and the artificer bolt cache on the sergeant for a SIA hurricane bolter could be effective.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 01:49:13


Post by: Niiru


 lessthanjeff wrote:
I’m not impressed with any of the numbers from las fusil eliminators dealing with gravis units, but a centurion assault squad seems interesting.

3 damage in melee and the artificer bolt cache on the sergeant for a SIA hurricane bolter could be effective.


I've considered centurions myself, but I'm not sure how to reliably get them into melee.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 01:55:31


Post by: Rivener


You could run Cents just behind a shield wall and put Mantle of Shadow on them. If you keep em cheap without bolters and with flamers they won’t be shooting anyways, so no downside. Just untargetable melee monsters lumbering forward.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 02:44:25


Post by: Sterling191


Insularum wrote:

Perhaps, but it is trivially easy to get full rerolls on both hits and wounds. A general purpose high ROF/decent damage platform can be made to be good vs any target profile.


It's also trivially easy to get equal rerolls on a cheaper, more resilient and even more deadly after rerolls unit that doesnt blow itself up (4x HB vets, 6x bolter / combiflamer +/- shield vets).

Just because rerolls are available doesnt make a unit a good choice for said rerolls.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 02:47:50


Post by: Leth


Every unit has access to everything that they would be able to take on their main sheet with all the same limitations.

So if it’s 1 per unit? Kill teams can take em. If it’s one per 5 then you need 5 of that model to take one.

Kill teams are not as much of a concern. Don’t mind one eliminator going in the squad with 4 infiltrators. At the end of the day I am still getting all of the special rules per models and for 6 points more I actually get some damage output.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 06:45:55


Post by: Niiru


My previous question was basically me wondering whether the Gauntlet or the Comms Array was the better choice, and whether it was possible to end up with both options (unfortunately seems not).


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 14:21:45


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:
My previous question was basically me wondering whether the Gauntlet or the Comms Array was the better choice, and whether it was possible to end up with both options (unfortunately seems not).


As written the gauntlet and comms array are mutually exclusive (which is silly, but here we are). I personally think the Array edges out ahead, especially for a team you dont plan on squadding down, but the gauntlet is intriguing too. The fact that its a reactive upgrade makes it a little harder to plan around, but telling the first failed save each turn (turn, not battle round) to sod off can potentially stack up over the course of the game.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 14:52:46


Post by: bullyboy


On the fortis team loadouts, since you can swap out variants within the team, why not make a distance combat squadded KT with 3 stalker BR and 2 hvy plasma incinerators in one, and 3 auto bolter (plus sgt with melee) and 2 assault plasma incinerators in the other. 2 special weapons per squad keeps them a little cheaper while still dishing reasonable firepower.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/12 15:59:28


Post by: LunarSol


For Spectrus I think there's advantages to either split and thankfully you can pick on the fly. 3/2 : 3/2 means each sniper has 6 wounds blocking for it, but both teams are in a pretty static position that does have the advantage of covering a good chunk of board space.

1/4 : 5 makes the snipers more vulnerable, but lets the remaining Infiltrators do more than act as meatshield. They can deploy closer, engage freely or take objectives without disrupting the sniper fire. This is probably my preferred configuration in theory, but the other isn't without merit.

As for the 10th man, I think the answer is "not an Infiltrator". At the very least, an Incursor packs more or less the same rules as an infiltrator for 3 less points. I'm not sure if the mine is worth it, but its an option. Otherwise, the 5 Eliminator is just that and probably not bad by any means.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 10:56:18


Post by: lessthanjeff


 bullyboy wrote:
On the fortis team loadouts, since you can swap out variants within the team, why not make a distance combat squadded KT with 3 stalker BR and 2 hvy plasma incinerators in one, and 3 auto bolter (plus sgt with melee) and 2 assault plasma incinerators in the other. 2 special weapons per squad keeps them a little cheaper while still dishing reasonable firepower.


I keep wanting to run a 5 intercessor and 5 hellblaster team (265 points) because I like the models, but I still can't justify it over the following.

10 vets with plasma guns, 3 with storm shields and 7 with chain swords (265 points). You get better shooting output because of the additional plasma shots (although it's less shots overall), significantly better melee results from the additional attacks and ap, a significant durability upgrade with the stormshields that you can use as needed against both small arms fire and shots requiring an invul save, and better morale to top it off. I think I'm also going to add a black shield to each unit with a plasma gun and a thunder hammer, so that'll increase the cost, but I like the ability to heroically intervene and the melee output of the black shield too much to pass that up.

The one thing I'll give the primaris unit as the assault weapons advantage that could be pretty pivotal if you swap them to white scars tactics and pull off a long advance and charge too.

I think if I'm taking a couple vets units with plasma, then I don't need to worry about gravis units after all. I am probably going to run a couple venerable dreads too since I already have them painted up and I'm considering the heavy plasma cannon there will which will me some additional damage 2/3 options in the field though.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 12:42:30


Post by: bullyboy


But then that gets back to the issue of spamming weapons and moving away from what kill teams should look like. I'd rather take a mixed unit.
I have 5 auto bolt intercessors already built, and plan to add a single assault intercessor and 4 auto hellblasters. The assault intercessor will act as my pseudo Sgt of the combat squad not containing the actual sergeant.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 13:09:47


Post by: Elfric


Does anyone know if Deathwatch can run "relic Terminators" ?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 13:18:30


Post by: bullyboy


Yes they can, although not in kill teams


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 15:31:53


Post by: Elfric


 bullyboy wrote:
Yes they can, although not in kill teams


okay so they could be run in the Elite unit squad. I really think they look better than regular Indomitus especially now they have lost SIA on stormbolters.

Do relic terminators look decent for DW and how would most people run them?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 17:25:06


Post by: bullyboy


I have 5 but may keep them for Deathwing or Ravenguard. Combi bolter and lightning claw seems popular with possibly chainfist on Sgt.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 20:01:48


Post by: Leth


I mean, as long as it’s the same kit out, you can just run the relic terminator models in your kill teams in place of regular terminators.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/13 20:26:01


Post by: Sterling191


 Leth wrote:
I mean, as long as it’s the same kit out, you can just run the relic terminator models in your kill teams in place of regular terminators.


Pretty much this. Conversion potential for daaaaaaaaaaays.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/14 12:07:14


Post by: lessthanjeff


 bullyboy wrote:
But then that gets back to the issue of spamming weapons and moving away from what kill teams should look like. I'd rather take a mixed unit.
I have 5 auto bolt intercessors already built, and plan to add a single assault intercessor and 4 auto hellblasters. The assault intercessor will act as my pseudo Sgt of the combat squad not containing the actual sergeant.


Is that loadout any more mixed actually? You're describing 10 intercessor bodies, 4 with a different gun and 1 with a different melee weapon.

I'm describing 10 vet bodies, 4 with a shield, 1 with a different melee weapon (thunder hammer). Vets just don't get a new name for every weapon change.

If you want to stick with a unit that has a diverse loadout, it seems it would be more about getting a jetpack, a bike, and a terminator in the squad. A hellblaster seems as different from an intercessor as a vet with a shield is from a vet with a sword.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/14 13:26:26


Post by: bullyboy


 lessthanjeff wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
But then that gets back to the issue of spamming weapons and moving away from what kill teams should look like. I'd rather take a mixed unit.
I have 5 auto bolt intercessors already built, and plan to add a single assault intercessor and 4 auto hellblasters. The assault intercessor will act as my pseudo Sgt of the combat squad not containing the actual sergeant.


Is that loadout any more mixed actually? You're describing 10 intercessor bodies, 4 with a different gun and 1 with a different melee weapon.

I'm describing 10 vet bodies, 4 with a shield, 1 with a different melee weapon (thunder hammer). Vets just don't get a new name for every weapon change.

If you want to stick with a unit that has a diverse loadout, it seems it would be more about getting a jetpack, a bike, and a terminator in the squad. A hellblaster seems as different from an intercessor as a vet with a shield is from a vet with a sword.

It's using 3 out of the 4 options in a mixed team, and no spamming plasma. Now, 4 plasma guns or combis in a 10 man vet unit wouldn't be so bad. Then dash in a melee weapon, DW bolters, etc then not too bad. But throwing plasma on everyone, even if you add shields, is still spamming.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/14 18:25:57


Post by: lessthanjeff


My statement was that there’s little reason to go the intercessor route over the vets because the vets are strictly better, cheaper, and have more options. If you only want 4 plasma guns in each unit, then do that with the vets instead. It’s totally fine to pick the intercessor units because you like them more, but it doesn’t make sense to me to do it because they’re somehow more mixed.

I know some people prefer to make one unit mix like what you’re describing and then apply it to all their units, but I prefer to give different loadouts to each unit so they all have their own role and then you also don’t have to deal with 5 stat lines and weapon profile for each activation. Ironically, you could end up with more models wielding the same weapon in your army if that is the route you choose. I don’t think either approach is more or less spammy than the other, myself.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/14 19:23:40


Post by: Niiru


 lessthanjeff wrote:
My statement was that there’s little reason to go the intercessor route over the vets because the vets are strictly better, cheaper, and have more options. If you only want 4 plasma guns in each unit, then do that with the vets instead. It’s totally fine to pick the intercessor units because you like them more, but it doesn’t make sense to me to do it because they’re somehow more mixed.

I know some people prefer to make one unit mix like what you’re describing and then apply it to all their units, but I prefer to give different loadouts to each unit so they all have their own role and then you also don’t have to deal with 5 stat lines and weapon profile for each activation. Ironically, you could end up with more models wielding the same weapon in your army if that is the route you choose. I don’t think either approach is more or less spammy than the other, myself.



How does a plasmagun compare to a hellblaster plasma?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/14 20:01:30


Post by: lessthanjeff


Are you asking about damage output/efficiency? If so, the numbers will change depending on which plasma weapon you’d use and against which target, but I’ll show a quick comparison for reference.

The easiest to compare would be the plasma gun and the plasma incinerator shooting a common target like an intercessor. If that’s what you mean, here is the breakdown:

4 Vets with plasmagun and chainsword (100 points): 3.7 dead

3 hellblasters with plasma incinerators (99 points): 3.3 dead

Pretty close in the shooting output, but the vets are more durable since you get 2 extra wounds for the same cost. The vets would also get 16 melee attacks at ap1 vs the hellblasters 9 ap0. Then there’s also a leadership difference between them. The hellblasters would have slightly more range and that’s about it.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/14 22:08:43


Post by: Rivener


Assault plasma kills more Intercessors point for point than plasma vets, but it’s close, unless you add melee.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/14 22:23:18


Post by: lessthanjeff


In most situations, yes, but not all. In tactical mode the vets actually pull ahead again.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 00:06:41


Post by: Runt Nosher


I was wondering if anybody could point me toward the costs and choices a Xenos Inquisitor comes with?

The app shows the 60pt cost but nothing for being a psyker or the force weapon upgrade? Between grabbing up Warlord Traits and rerolling early charges I thought the potential to regen some more CP could help me turn some decisive moments my way mid-late game. Spending the CP to bring one with Esoteric Lore and Mental Interrogation and putting her either in a Corvus or Rhino to pop out second turn and try doing a thing. I have a Librarian slinging his two powers putting in good work, but I haven’t faced many psyker heavy lists, I worry I wouldn’t do much against these kinds of armies. If she comes in under 100 pts I think it’s worth it if she can net me more than 2 or 3 CP though, plus a couple interesting Stratagem choices.

Right now I’m trying to work with 2 x 10 vet squads and about 7-8 Vanguard. I’ve been using a chapter champion with the warlord trait, a termi Libby and termi Chaplain. With the Corvus and Rhino mentioned earlier and some combat squads coming out of the Teleportarium I really think the inquisitor has a place, too bad the Xenos psychic power only covers Ordo units. I’m having a good time taking objectives but have struggled at holding them, especially anything in my backfield. I don’t have the rule book so I tend to take weird Secondary choices that don’t quite work all the time for my list.

If my psyker is in a Transport can I deny the witch? Do I need to be in a certain range to use it? Sorry for the rules Q’s but my indomitus set still hasn’t arrived.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 10:51:52


Post by: lessthanjeff


As of now, you may not want to run an inquisitor at all because you lose your doctrines if you include one. I'm not sure that was intended because the strat to give doctrines to a unit gives permission to including an "agents of the imperium" unit while the army wide rules only specify allowing an "unaligned" unit. It does suck though because I first built my army to be a support for an inquisitor and I liked to use assassins too.

When a model is in a transport they count as being off the table though. That means no auras and no denies.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 14:18:10


Post by: Sterling191


Neither Inquisitors nor Assassins negate doctrines. Rules have been updated since their initial implementation to permit them to be taken without borking armies.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 19:46:19


Post by: Sterling191


Electing to only compare SBs versus Vengeance SIA, not discussing combi-weapons and then baking in a stalker and setting the range outside of rapid fire muddies that chart to an absurd degree.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 20:10:37


Post by: Flavius Infernus


The article leaves a lot to infer.

I only read it once so far, but I don't think rapid fire range would make a difference in the outcome of calculating potential/average kills.
-Storm bolters (rapid fire 2) always get twice as many shots as boltguns (rapid fire 1) regardless of range, bolter discipline, etc.
-So storm bolters are always going to come out ahead of boltguns firing SIA in terms of average kills, because the potential to kill 3 or 4 models will mathematically overwhelm mods to AP, cover, and so forth that you get from SIA.

It's not at all clear from the formatting, but I believe the chart shows that boltguns firing Vengeance rounds always average more kills than other SIA rounds versus something with more than 1 wound. It's in the text, if not in the chart.

So there's no point in comparing Stalkers to SIA boltguns. Here, I think, is one of the inferences: Stalkers have better kill numbers than SIA boltguns firing a single shot. But the second shot inside of rapid-fire range, again, overwhelms the kill potential of the Stalker. -Stalkers never get more than one shot, regardless of range, so their kill potential is never greater than one dead target model per weapon.

The article does mention that if the target is a 3-wound model, then Stalkers firing vengeance rounds have the best kill numbers.

But a storm bolter is a good comparison because--with a potential 2 damage for every 1 damage potential of a boltgun--a storm bolter is, in effect, always firing double vengeance rounds regardless of range/rapid fire compared with a boltgun

2 shots from a storm bolter = 1 vengeance round shot from an SIA boltgun in terms of their potential damage.

The odds of hitting, wounding, effects of cover, doctrines, AP, are the same for both shots. The difference is that, against single-wound models, storm bolters have the potential to kill twice as many models as a regular SIA boltgun.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 20:33:31


Post by: grouchoben


I think talk of SBs' demise is a bit exaggerated: with the right mission and doctrine, 40 shots at ap-1 and rerolling all wounds is still a legit anti-infantry option for some choppy vets.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 20:56:21


Post by: Flavius Infernus


Yeah, I think that's one of the takeaways from the article. I'm really keen to try to explain this more concisely:

1. SIA makes small, 1-in-6 adjustments to your odds of getting a wound through to the target. Dragonfire gives you an extra 1 in 6 of hitting a model in cover. Hellfire gives you an extra 1 in 6 of scoring a wound.

2. Against 2-wound models, vengeance rounds kill more target models. Even though your vengeance shot has slightly less chance of hitting or wounding than another SIA round, the fact that every shot that gets through kills a whole model swamps the small advantages of SIA modifiers on 1-damage shots.

3. Similarly, Storm Bolters swamp those little 1 in 6 modifiers by doubling the number of shots. Which would you rather have: a +1 to hit a model in cover, or a whole extra shot? Even if the 2 shots don't ignore cover, they still kill more models on average than the one shot that ignores cover.

4. A storm bolter against 2-wound model targets is, in effect, like an SIA boltgun with vengeance ammo always turned on. The profile of the two weapons is identical (except for number of shots and damage, which are a wash), and the maximum potential damage (4 wounds max at rapid fire range or 2 at long range) is identical.

5. The difference comes in with 1-wound target models. Vengeance ammo is less good against single wound targets because the extra point of damage gets lost. But a storm bolter doesn't have that problem--it can potentially kill up to 4 single-wound models without losing any efficiency.

6. So a storm bolter is better than SIA against 1-wound models and as good as SIA against 2-wound models.

7. The one place where Stalkers are better is against 3-wound models, because the potential to take out a whole model with one shot swamps the kill potential of a storm bolter.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 22:36:09


Post by: lessthanjeff


Sterling191 wrote:
Neither Inquisitors nor Assassins negate doctrines. Rules have been updated since their initial implementation to permit them to be taken without borking armies.


Am I misreading the text on page 33 then? The new codex specifies that you can exclude agents of the imperium and unaligned units for counting as a deathwatch detachment but then only specifies unaligned models for your army getting combat doctrines.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 22:40:24


Post by: Niiru


Is the storm bolter improvement worth the 2ppm that it costs, is the question to be asked.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 22:48:39


Post by: Sterling191


 lessthanjeff wrote:

Am I misreading the text on page 33 then? The new codex specifies that you can exclude agents of the imperium and unaligned units for counting as a deathwatch detachment but then only specifies unaligned models for your army getting combat doctrines.


You're not reading Authority of the Inquisition or Agent of the Imperium rules for Inquisitors or Assassins respectively.

Niiru wrote:
Is the storm bolter improvement worth the 2ppm that it costs, is the question to be asked.


The better question is is the SBs ability in the context of other weapons worth the cost. Equally important to ask is what the platform for said SB is. Deathwatch isnt hurting for infantry killing capacity.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 23:10:57


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:


Niiru wrote:
Is the storm bolter improvement worth the 2ppm that it costs, is the question to be asked.


The better question is is the SBs ability in the context of other weapons worth the cost. Equally important to ask is what the platform for said SB is. Deathwatch isnt hurting for infantry killing capacity.



True, but then if you're specialising units (which may well be the case with deathwatch) then you might be better off with one unit of storm bolters (furor?) and one unit of plain plasma or melta guns (malleus?). Or combat a 10-man unit into 5x SBs and 5X meltas and go Aquila on them.

Of course if they're going vs elites, then combi-plasma is probably the best option as both profiles would be useful...

Or maybe combiplasma is always better, I dunno. It seems odd that adding the combi-bolter is 5pts more than just plain plasma, when the bolter is normally free. Its what makes me want to go for the basic plasma or melta or storm bolter instead of a combi, as we are already tight on points.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 23:27:25


Post by: Sterling191


I think you've misunderstood me. Veterans are not the only platform to deploy storm bolters (and their equivalents) on.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 23:55:09


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:
I think you've misunderstood me. Veterans are not the only platform to deploy storm bolters (and their equivalents) on.


Ohh yeh, I see what you mean I guess, though losing storm bolters on terminators is what I was remembering. I know you can take them on bikes, but I'm unlikely to run bike squads, so vets are the only unit that I'd be likely to run storm bolters on (that I can think of)


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/16 23:55:22


Post by: Flavius Infernus


It seems like maybe mono-weapon builds for the entire army are the thing that is rebalanced out of the Deathwatch meta. Storm bolter and storm shield used to be the most competitive, most efficient veteran loadout pretty much no matter what.

But now you kind of want SIA boltguns for their cheapness-range, storm bolters for extra killiness against hordes, Stalkers for 3-wound targets. Then the whole universe of combi weapons. Seems like there’s actually a reason now to take a mix.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 03:35:50


Post by: bullyboy


 lessthanjeff wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Neither Inquisitors nor Assassins negate doctrines. Rules have been updated since their initial implementation to permit them to be taken without borking armies.


Am I misreading the text on page 33 then? The new codex specifies that you can exclude agents of the imperium and unaligned units for counting as a deathwatch detachment but then only specifies unaligned models for your army getting combat doctrines.


As far as I'm aware, taking an inquisitor still allows you to use doctrines. What it does not allow you to do is rotate the doctrines as you wish by being pure Deathwatch. So, if you have an AOI, you have to go dev->tac->tac/ass->ass->ass as other marine chapters do.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 03:45:35


Post by: Sterling191


 bullyboy wrote:

As far as I'm aware, taking an inquisitor still allows you to use doctrines. What it does not allow you to do is rotate the doctrines as you wish by being pure Deathwatch. So, if you have an AOI, you have to go dev->tac->tac/ass->ass->ass as other marine chapters do.


Again, Inquisitors and Assassins (when taken correctly, IE: solo) are explicitly ignored for the purpose of breaking doctrines.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 08:58:09


Post by: Hesselhof


Hey guys, would you equip eliminators in a Killteam with bolt sniper or Lasfusils?



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 13:16:48


Post by: bullyboy


Sterling191 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:

As far as I'm aware, taking an inquisitor still allows you to use doctrines. What it does not allow you to do is rotate the doctrines as you wish by being pure Deathwatch. So, if you have an AOI, you have to go dev->tac->tac/ass->ass->ass as other marine chapters do.


Again, Inquisitors and Assassins (when taken correctly, IE: solo) are explicitly ignored for the purpose of breaking doctrines.


nevermind, I had to go check my ravenguard supplement and the PA books to see how this works. Single AOI units (Inq or assassin) do indeed seem to ignore this.

Also good to know I can take a single ordo inq without screwing things up.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 14:27:03


Post by: Sterling191


 bullyboy wrote:

nevermind, I had to go check my ravenguard supplement and the PA books to see how this works. Single AOI units (Inq or assassin) do indeed seem to ignore this.

Also good to know I can take a single ordo inq without screwing things up.


In fairness, Assassins when they were first updated in late 8th *did* break doctrines. GW learned their lesson and when Inquisitors were first updated pre-PA they were able to work around it. It wasnt until PA that Assassins got the same updated wording.

And while I personally prefer a Malleus Inquisitor, the Xenos one is exceptionally fluffy and not a detriment should you choose to include it.

 Hesselhof wrote:
Hey guys, would you equip eliminators in a Killteam with bolt sniper or Lasfusils?



Snipers all the way. Fusils are decent, but you have other anti-Gravis / Anti-vehicle options that dont overlap with character hunting that the Eliminators are premier at.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 14:51:40


Post by: LunarSol


The easy comparison is just that a Las-Fusil Eliminator costs the same as an Eradicator.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 15:06:12


Post by: the_scotsman


 LunarSol wrote:
The easy comparison is just that a Las-Fusil Eliminator costs the same as an Eradicator.


I mean, sure, but eradicators are comical compared to literally everything in the game/codex. Compare eradicators to LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE and you can "prove" that anything is a bad unit.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 15:43:06


Post by: bullyboy


Ok, so how are people equipping (or thinking about equipping) Indomitor kill teams. It's the only one I'm not sure about.
Do you stick with 10 man unit with 3 eradicators, 1 inceptor (to allow fallback and shoot at 1 less CP), and 1 aggressor (for some melee)? Or are you thinking about combat squadding, and if so, how do you allocate each member?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 16:23:57


Post by: Rivener


Anti-horde:
5 heavy Intercessors, 4 aggressors, 1 Inceptor
5 heavy Intercessors, 5 bolter Inceptors

Anti-MEQ/TEQ/Vehicles:
5 heavy Intercessors, 5 Eradicators, or drop 1 for the Inceptor fallback

Anti-MEQ:
5 heavy Intercessors, 5 plasma inceptors

ObSec Jumpers:
5 heavy Intercessors, 5 inceptors combat squadded


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 21:58:00


Post by: Niiru


Do any of the proteus heavy / unique weapons have any merit (compared to just taking plasma / combi) ?

Frags and Infernus being the main two in consideration I think, don't think there's any others.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/17 23:10:37


Post by: Runt Nosher


Ive used a 10 man squad w/ 2 x Frags, 2 x Infernus and the rest with Shotguns a couple times. Combat squaded in the Teleportarium they’ve been my answer to my buddies 20 Necron Warrior bomb w/ Veil and Royal warden. I haven’t shot off more than 6-7 guys in the drop, using the Overkill strat to keep them down even. I’m not sure it’s enough damage honestly but look forward to trying them against tougher and weaker opponents. I feel this new meta of multi wound models backed up by FnP and Invuln psychic powers has me leaning toward Missile Launchers. I don’t need to be as close and while I’ve whiffed quite a lot with the D6 damage roll in the past, I think they’ll have a deeper psychological presence via board control.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 03:43:33


Post by: bullyboy


Had a test game last weekend and my Frag Cannons were crucial in stripping the last few wounds of T7 vehicles when I needed it. I like the duality of their capabilities but wish the horde clearer was better.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 11:03:40


Post by: lessthanjeff


That is good to know about the psychic awakening rules so I’m glad you shared that. I’ve not played in about a year now so I missed that PA release and was just going off the DW codex (which is still weird that they mention agents of the imperium in some places but not others).

Regarding the heavy weapons, I shelved my frag cannons. Losing the ability to go to str 9 makes them strictly worse than a plasma gun against tough targets and for anti horde you’d be better off with combi-flamers. For the cost of one frag cannon, you could take 3 special weapons and improve your output against both targets considerably.

I used to use a squad of frag cannons to help with antitank because we had so few options for that before. Now, we have lots of options and the frag cannons got nerfed for some reason.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 13:04:20


Post by: bullyboy


They were ok at 10pts (per index), but 15pts puts them purely in fluff context now. I'll still take a few, but they need to go back to 10pts.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 14:09:16


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:
Do any of the proteus heavy / unique weapons have any merit (compared to just taking plasma / combi) ?

Frags and Infernus being the main two in consideration I think, don't think there's any others.


I'm not a fan of the Infernus or the Frag cannon (largely due to cost considerations for what they can do), but basic HBs, the humble Missile Launcher and the CML are solid gold. Yes, it would be faaaaaaar better if we could deploy lascannons or multimeltas (seriously, give Deathwatch MMs and I'll never, ever, need to run an Eradicator), but their range and relative cost profiles make them solid choices for backfield objective fire teams.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 14:48:27


Post by: LunarSol


 bullyboy wrote:
They were ok at 10pts (per index), but 15pts puts them purely in fluff context now. I'll still take a few, but they need to go back to 10pts.


I think all of the index points feel better than what we got in the Codex. I'd not be at all surprised to discover their actually more current.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 15:51:35


Post by: lessthanjeff


I’ve not crunched the numbers on the infernus yet, but I believe it’s only 5 more points than the heavy bolter by itself. I was considering a squad with 4 heavy bolters anyways, so that one might not be too bad. I also wish we could get multi-meltas though...

I haven’t been impressed with cyclone missile output, but that’s also partly because of the combined expensive cost of the terminator it’s on.

I was thinking about trying the chapter champion for a shared 5++, but now I’m wondering if that’s worth it. First off, it will only help against a high ap weapon and probably only for 1 or 2 units near him. Putting those points into stormshields would add more durability to units against both small arms fire and high ap weapons without positioning requirements. He’s also another liability for scoring points. Has he done anything remarkable for you guys that more stormshields couldn’t have replaced?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 16:02:05


Post by: LunarSol


I think its more about putting an Invul on Gravis.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 17:19:55


Post by: Sterling191


 lessthanjeff wrote:

I haven’t been impressed with cyclone missile output, but that’s also partly because of the combined expensive cost of the terminator it’s on.


53 points is 8 points more expensive than an HMR Eradicator, has a bit less anti-tank/anti-elite ability but comes with considerably longer range, inbuilt anti-infantry (and absolutely terrifying anti horde capacity), actual melee capacity, a baked in invuln and 2+ save while also being able to pull off squad-wide movement shenanigans for another 5 points. It's an absolute steal.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 17:25:51


Post by: Flavius Infernus


 lessthanjeff wrote:
I’ve not crunched the numbers on the infernus yet, but I believe it’s only 5 more points than the heavy bolter by itself. I was considering a squad with 4 heavy bolters anyways, so that one might not be too bad.


It is 5 points more, and I've been trying to justify that extra 20 points, but not sure that I can, except I do have a couple of ideas.

The efficiency is that if you want an HB anyway or you want an HF anyway, then it's only 5 points more for the additional weapon. So it's a discount versus buying the two weapons.

Also it's efficient in that you pack more weapons onto the same number of guys, so if you're trying to squeeze more weapons into a transport or a teleportarium unit, it lets you double up on guns for those four guys. But that suggests that we're looking at more of an alpha-strike unit, twice the shots and you pay a premium to be able to cram all those shots in the first shooting phase after you arrive. Similar to combi weapons.

Usually we think about heavy bolters as a backfield weapon for a unit that will be standing still and not moving around. Using IHBs that way is mostly a waste of the 5-point flamer. You might think that they'd be handy against backfield assaulty bully units, and maybe they would, but how often does that happen?

But if you think about the IHB as a heavy flamer with a couple of extra shots, then that goes back to the idea that it's an up-close weapon, for deepstriking.

Usually the disadvantage of having the HB on an up-close unit is that you have to move around and incur the hit penalty. But if you fire both weapon profiles on an IHB, you're at -1 to hit anyway, and the penalty maxes out at -1, so you might as well move and shoot every turn.

So maybe the way to justify it is to think about the IHB as a heavier combi-weapon, more efficient than the combi-flamer or combi-plas because it's more like two special weapons combined, rather than a special and a bolter. The thing you get for your 5-point premium is that it has the profile roughly of a plas (the 2-damage HB, but lower str/AP and no overheat) *and* the profile of a flamer, (but the heavy version).

So in the role of coming in from the teleportarium, in a drop pod, or from a transport, you can lay down one big volley--including 8 shots at a target up to 36" away behind the screen while you flame the screen--then any survivors can run & gun and still be a threat out to 42".

Seems like it's worth testing.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 18:33:38


Post by: Runt Nosher


After reading the data sheet just now does the 1 Heavy Hammer per 5 Model bullet mean that I can put them on my watch Sergeant and Black Shield?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 19:06:35


Post by: Sterling191


Runt Nosher wrote:
After reading the data sheet just now does the 1 Heavy Hammer per 5 Model bullet mean that I can put them on my watch Sergeant and Black Shield?


Only if you're in a full 10-man unit, otherwise yes.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/18 21:19:25


Post by: lessthanjeff


Sterling191 wrote:

53 points is 8 points more expensive than an HMR Eradicator, has a bit less anti-tank/anti-elite ability but comes with considerably longer range, inbuilt anti-infantry (and absolutely terrifying anti horde capacity), actual melee capacity, a baked in invuln and 2+ save while also being able to pull off squad-wide movement shenanigans for another 5 points. It's an absolute steal.


I assume you're running them as dual lightning claw? I didn't notice that as an option to make them cheaper, so I'm glad you pointed out the cost as it does make me a little more tempted.

The big appeal of the eradicator to me is the damage being 5-10 vs 1-6 though and for targeting big targets the extra ap is also important. Comparing to the vets in a squad they'd be replacing, that's also the cost of 2 with either plasma weapons or storm shields depending on if you want offense or defense. Offensively, 4 shots with higher ap and higher chance to hit since they aren't heavy weapons. Defensively, an extra wound and at a better invul save. The teleport homer is nice, but also requires the unit being off the table for another turn. I'll probably try it, but I'm on the pessimistic side.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

So in the role of coming in from the teleportarium, in a drop pod, or from a transport, you can lay down one big volley--including 8 shots at a target up to 36" away behind the screen while you flame the screen--then any survivors can run & gun and still be a threat out to 42".

Seems like it's worth testing.


Was that supposed to be "8 hits" assuming you aren't moving the unit? Guessing movement will be needed to get both weapons firing so 6 hits but also I think they'll both need to target the same unit since it's 1 weapon. I believe you can only split shots when they come from different weapons.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 00:22:41


Post by: Flavius Infernus


 lessthanjeff wrote:


Flavius Infernus wrote:

So in the role of coming in from the teleportarium, in a drop pod, or from a transport, you can lay down one big volley--including 8 shots at a target up to 36" away behind the screen while you flame the screen--then any survivors can run & gun and still be a threat out to 42".

Seems like it's worth testing.


Was that supposed to be "8 hits" assuming you aren't moving the unit? Guessing movement will be needed to get both weapons firing so 6 hits but also I think they'll both need to target the same unit since it's 1 weapon. I believe you can only split shots when they come from different weapons.


Nah, I just misremembered the number of shot that an HB gets (I was still thinking in terms of them being like plasma guns with Str 5 and much less AP). So should have said 12 shots.

I'm not sure about the rules requiring all profiles on a weapon to shoot at the same target. I read over the rules for that a couple of times, and it's definitely not explicit, but you could make arguments for either conclusion based on what's there. Probably should be a topic for YMDC.

It's no great loss if you do have to shoot both at the same target. The closer target is likely to need killing too.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 02:15:08


Post by: Sterling191


 lessthanjeff wrote:


I assume you're running them as dual lightning claw? I didn't notice that as an option to make them cheaper, so I'm glad you pointed out the cost as it does make me a little more tempted.


LCs are a waste on Terminators as the model has to give up its bolter to take them. Basic power weapons and SBs are zero cost equipment, pick the one that suits your loadout (I personally hold to Axes, but there's roles for all three).

 lessthanjeff wrote:

The big appeal of the eradicator to me is the damage being 5-10 vs 1-6 though and for targeting big targets the extra ap is also important. Comparing to the vets in a squad they'd be replacing, that's also the cost of 2 with either plasma weapons or storm shields depending on if you want offense or defense. Offensively, 4 shots with higher ap and higher chance to hit since they aren't heavy weapons. Defensively, an extra wound and at a better invul save. The teleport homer is nice, but also requires the unit being off the table for another turn. I'll probably try it, but I'm on the pessimistic side.


Special Weapon vets and Terminators fulfill wildly different roles within a kill team, even with the loss of Unflinching. The former is about close in firepower, the latter is in giving the unit an expanded engagement envelope and being downright painful to shift (exponentially so with defensive and healing support). Working together, they allow the unit to do far more than either could separately.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

The big appeal of the eradicator to me is the damage being 5-10 vs 1-6 though and for targeting big targets the extra ap is also important.


Yes, CMLs dont do the anti-tank role as well as HMR Eradicators. Literally nothing in the game does that job better than HMR Eradicators. But the latter falls on its face hellaciously hard in melee, and when dealing with hordes. A Proteus team with a few Terminators and LC Vets is *not* something you casually tag into combat against.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 02:41:13


Post by: lessthanjeff


Power weapons are 3 points each for terminators and vets in my codex. The lightning claw seems to be the only one that is free so that’s why I was assuming you had that loadout. Honestly, a pair of claws doesn’t sound bad to me to get 5 attacks in the first round at ap2 and rerolling wounds.

For durability in the unit, you could get 4 wounds at a 2+ 4++ for 50 points of vets but the terminator you’re describing seems to be 3 wounds at 2+ 5++ for 56 points (61 with the teleport homer). While there is an advantage to having the toughness focused on one model for rezzing purposes, wouldn’t you not want to put damage on the terminator till the unit was almost wiped because of the investment in the one model?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 14:04:15


Post by: Sterling191


 lessthanjeff wrote:
Power weapons are 3 points each for terminators and vets in my codex.


fething hell GW broke it from the index to the codex. Non PF/TH weapons were all free in the latter (and are free for baseline codex terminators). That's another for the FAQ pile. I'll need to check the SW supplement, but I think we're now the only loyalist terminators that get double charged for these weapons.

Edit: Correct, we pay extra for what every other Marine army gets for free.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

For durability in the unit, you could get 4 wounds at a 2+ 4++ for 50 points of vets but the terminator you’re describing seems to be 3 wounds at 2+ 5++ for 56 points (61 with the teleport homer). While there is an advantage to having the toughness focused on one model for rezzing purposes, wouldn’t you not want to put damage on the terminator till the unit was almost wiped because of the investment in the one model?


Who says I only run a single terminator in a Proteus team?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 15:31:16


Post by: lessthanjeff


I don't mean to imply that you only run one in the whole unit, but I'm asking if you have 2 20 or 25 point models in a unit and then 56 or 61 point models in the unit, which ones do you put wounds on first? The 1 terminator to 2 vet comparison will continue regardless of how many terminators you actually include in your army.

Basically, I like the tough model to be separate from the hard-hitting one. I usually want the wounds to go on the cheaper models first so I don't lose the expensive weapons, so what are the circumstances where you are putting the damage on the terminator first?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 15:41:44


Post by: Sterling191


 lessthanjeff wrote:
I don't mean to imply that you only run one in the whole unit, but I'm asking if you have 2 20 or 25 point models in a unit and then 56 or 61 point models in the unit, which ones do you put wounds on first? The 1 terminator to 2 vet comparison will continue regardless of how many terminators you actually include in your army.

Basically, I like the tough model to be separate from the hard-hitting one. I usually want the wounds to go on the cheaper models first so I don't lose the expensive weapons, so what are the circumstances where you are putting the damage on the terminator first?


Again, you're assuming that every Terminator in a squad is going to have a CML. In non-Crusade games, they're not. Furthermore, all incoming attacks are not created equal. Terminators are exceptionally good at soaking small arms fire, while Vets are ideal for taking things like Lascannon or Melta fire. Where you start allocating wounds in a kill team is a very delicate dance (both due to mixed save characteristics and the 9th edition attack allocation rules), but can allow for significantly greater durability than the squad appears to have on paper.

Finally, points costs and weapon choices mean you're not going to have shields on every Vet. That makes the underlying 2+ 3W profile on the terminator vastly more valuable.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 16:06:12


Post by: lessthanjeff


Right, if you want to give specifics of the exact units you're running, we can run a more detailed comparison across units. All I have to go on right now is you said a single terminator with a cyclone missile launcher was a steal for its durability and output. I'm just trying to show what an equivalent number of points buys in vets for their durability and output to compare the value of the choice. If you'd rather compare a terminator with a different loadout, just tell me. All I'm trying to do is compare the numbers so anyone reading can understand which one they want to pick and what the advantages will be of the choice.

Every 56 point terminator with a power weapon and cml could be replaced with 2 vets that both have stormshields and one that has a special weapon like a plasma gun for 55 points. Terminator is 3 wounds with a 2+ 5++ on one model with 2 str 8 shots. Vets would get 4 wounds with a 2+ 4++ across two models with 2 str 8 shots. That's about the closest I can make the numbers for a comparison.

Durability wise, I think vets win hand down. They're more resistant to elite shooting from the likes of eradicators (because it's two models so you can't lose all 4 wounds from a single hit), they have more wounds overall (so better against the small arms fire), and they have a better invul.

Output wise, harder to compare. Both get 2 strength 8 shots. Terms lose accuracy with movement but have better range. Plasma gun has better ap, but could blow up. In melee the vets will get a lot more attacks, but at less ap since I probably wouldn't recommend upgrading their weapons. The free chainswords seem solid enough.

I'm just trying to make as close of a comparison as I can for value comparison.

I'm not recommending every vet in a unit gets a stormshield, but I'm saying every terminator chosen could be 2 vets with stormshields or special weapons for less cost.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 16:15:25


Post by: Sterling191


 lessthanjeff wrote:
Right, if you want to give specifics of the exact units you're running, we can run a more detailed comparison across units. All I have to go on right now is you said a single terminator with a cyclone missile launcher was a steal for its durability and output. I'm just trying to show what an equivalent number of points buys in vets for their durability and output to compare the value of the choice. If you'd rather compare a terminator with a different loadout, just tell me. All I'm trying to do is compare the numbers so anyone reading can understand which one they want to pick and what the advantages will be of the choice.


CML terminators *are* a steal for their points. But they're not the only way to run terminators, and frankly a mix is going to serve you far greater. That's the same as literally every configuration in a Deathwatch army. Individual models within a unit have specific configurations that contribute to the greater whole.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Every 56 point terminator with a power weapon and cml could be replaced with 2 vets that both have stormshields and one that has a special weapon like a plasma gun for 55 points. Terminator is 3 wounds with a 2+ 5++ on one model with 2 str 8 shots. Vets would get 4 wounds with a 2+ 4++ across two models with 2 str 8 shots. That's about the closest I can make the numbers for a comparison.


Lets make something abundantly clear here: 3ppm basic power weapons are a massive error in pointing by GW. Expect them to be corrected.

Secondly, plasma vets are punishingly short ranged, and require babysitting by expensive and precious HQ slots. CMLs are not. Furthermore, that single Terminator provides 16 hordesweeping shots, while those two plasma vets are putting out...2. 4 if you manage to get within 12". The CML brings range and versatility. It's a different tool for a different job.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

Durability wise, I think vets win hand down.
They're more resistant to elite shooting from the likes of eradicators (because it's two models so you can't lose all 4 wounds from a single hit), they have more wounds overall (so better against the small arms fire), and they have a better invul.


Again, this is entirely loadout dependent. Yes, shield Vets are better at soaking high strength fire. That's literally why they are there. They are not, however, better against small arms.

Even with the incorrect points values, a shielded Vet is 12.5ppw minimum. A basic terminator is 12ppw, which drops even further when one takes into account the correct points cost for their loadout. As in 8th, Shield Vets take the big shots, terminators take the small shots. But now, the Terminators have an additional role in soaking high quality D2 attacks.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

I'm not recommending every vet in a unit gets a stormshield, but I'm saying every terminator chosen could be 2 vets with stormshields or special weapons for less cost.


Once again, every Terminator is *not* the cost of two shielded Vets, and you're not using a CML terminator as ablative wounds any more than you're using a plasma gun vet as an ablative wound. The difference is, a CML vet can be used as a hidden anchor in a squad to soak attacks when the unit is depleted, when the shield vet is already dead.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

I'm just trying to make as close of a comparison as I can for value comparison.


Which is something you're never going to arrive at looking simply at point ratios. The wargear changes mean that the model, and the associated squad, are going to behave in wildly different fashions.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 21:08:06


Post by: Runt Nosher


I think you guys are actually saying the same thing, it really is an apples to oranges comparison and I think you include both choices in the same squad for the reasons you both have given. I’ve noticed that my all-the-fat-trimmed KT’s are around 240 points but do very specific things and look quite boring with obvious plays and strats that work with them. While when I take something like 4 Missile Launchers, 3 Terminators w/ CML and 3 x Storm Shield/Storm Bolter, the points get out of hand but the out of left field plays seem to fit in better and the expect the unexpected results you get that seem to typify the play style of Deathwatch are brought to the table. In the few games that I’ve had using a couple different factions in 9th, the nature of any given list tends to be easy to spot but the minor incremental changes that the player uses to their advantage is really what makes winning armies tick, which with the more list building I do here with Deathwatch you start to see so many interesting possibilities that wildly swing the use of a more generalist approach being able to be focused into something much more like a scalpel.

Plasma Vets and CML termis do not compare in ranged output though I don’t think... D6 damage at 48” range is pretty obviously a winner I think. The D2 on the Terminator everything else on Shield boys until they’re gone, then termis soak yadda yadda. It’s the same game we played last edition with a little spanner in the new food chain.

More and more I want to try a maxed out Bike squad with Shield, 5x power weapons and Multi melta attack bike. 315 points I think is very sane for a unit that can combat squad and use that sweet white scar strat right out of the gate to land a first turn charge. My opponents have tended to land right on the objectives when they attack while I’m finding my best chances seem to be to put pressure as far down range as I can early in an aggro kind of way and do my best to mop up in later rounds. So far I’ve found my armies with all Vets just haven’t had the staying power to eke out enough secondaries turns 3-5. I’ll hopefully be back shortly after a game I’m having against a friend who wants to bring an army specifically designed to kill 2W Marines... I’m expecting a blow out honestly.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 21:14:36


Post by: lessthanjeff


I agree about the pros of having some different loadouts in the unit especially so you can allocate wounds to your advantage. Even within the vets it's great having some with and some without ss because when you're in cover against AP- you don't even need to use a shield model.

I wasn't making any comments about the regular terminators though, so I'm confused why you're making comparisons to different terminator loadouts. I'm only questioning the value of the CML specific loadout because unless I misunderstood, you cited that one as being great value for its durability and output. All my references to a terminator being a choice over 2 vets are still in the context of the points calculations specific to the CML. Just as I'm sure you aren't dismissing all vet loadouts when you say you aren't a fan of the frag cannon, I'm making no claims towards any other loadout of terminator when I question the worth of the CML.

Longer range and horde clearing ability are two different roles worth considering though.

I've not been concerned with hordes myself because they seem to have been heavily nerfed and are near non-existent around me right now. The meta around me has become nearly all marines/elite armies. I also believe I have more than enough bikes and vets to clear any hordes that may emerge but that may be helpful for others.

For the backfield role, I've been planning on a small vet squad with ss on all of them for objective holding partly because, as I understand the new scoring system, most objectives cannot be scored by a unit that is shooting. I also hate leaving an expensive squad in the back if only one or two of the models could shoot. If there is a scoring role for backfield units, I was going to try 4 heavy bolters, but I could see one or two CML being helpful with that.

I hope you're correct and that the point values are changed for the power weapons in the FAQ, but any list or comparison I make right now is going to be based on the points as written in the book because events don't let me question the book's intent.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/19 23:16:54


Post by: Abaddon303


Guys, i've read through this topic and the last few pages of the previous tactic thread with interest. I've been toying with starting a Deathwatch army as my next project, they are not an easy army to get your head round best way to build! Most armies you can pick up three lots of troops and you're off to a pretty good start.

So coming from Chaos Space Marines, I'm really only interested in the Primaris stuff and things that i can't take in my Black Legion army, I started to realise that actually, out of all the loyalist chapters Deathwatch are in fact where old style marines are best supported so i started to think maybe they are not actually the army for me.

So a few questions hopefully you can help me with, coming from a reasonably competitive but not tournament perspective.

Do you think if i stuck purely to Primaris I'd be heavily gimping myself with no access to SIA etc?

I'm like a kid in a candy shop with all the loyalist goodies I've not been able to use before, Deathwatch seemed like a cool way of being able to pick and choose lots of different stuff. However, within the Primaris only kill teams i'm not seeing a huge amount of synergy in mixed units apart from the Spectrus team. Maybe Fortis I'd run mixed Intercessor/Hellblaster combat squads but outriders i'd end up with a unit of 5 ints and 5 outriders. So overlooking Proteus teams, what am i really gaining over a regular marine army and non-mixed units apart from obsec here and there? I wish i could take Inceptors and Outriders in a combat squad.

I want a plane, CSM don't get planes. I would have picked up a stormtalon/stormhawk but the Corvus is really nice. I was suprised to see i can't transport primaris in it. Is it crazy for me to take it if I'm not using it as a transport? The points and firepower seem to compare very favourably to the stormtalon, 5 pts cheaper than the typhoon missile version but you're tougher, more wounds and can drop bombs. Granted the stormtalon isn't a great unit this edition. I'm almost tempted to fill it with 3x4 servitors and chuck them out around the board for board control/actions just to make use of the transport capacity!


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 10:56:23


Post by: lessthanjeff


Luckily DW do have other advantages aside from SIA. It was sad losing the SIA for sure, it also hurt losing some of the unique unit combos like the sniping intercessors with a single aggressor to still move and hit on a 3+.

However, choosing DW over a different army you do still get the ability to reroll 1's without a lieutenant nearby and we also have great mobility options between the teleportarium and beacon angelis. Mixing and matching units is cool, of course, although a bit diminished since there are less choices for each team and many of the bonus rules have been lost or turned into strats. The psychic tree is also really good imo.

I think the 5 intercessor and 5 outrider unit has potential, but I haven't gotten to test it yet. I don't think the 5 intercessor and 5 hellblaster is very efficient though. In both cases I think doing it with a proteus kill team of vets with plasma or vets with bikes is going to be better but it is still something unique for the army. I don't think the Corvus is going to make any waves either unfortunately.

If you're especially interested in the gravis units, then I think DW will be one of the better armies for you. If it's more the intercessors and hellblasters you want, then I'd probably recommend waiting for other supplements to make your decision. Dark Angels and Ultramarines both might be better for those units in the months to come.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 12:23:12


Post by: Insularum


Abaddon303 wrote:
**snip**

Do you think if i stuck purely to Primaris I'd be heavily gimping myself with no access to SIA etc?

**snip**

I want a plane, CSM don't get planes. I would have picked up a stormtalon/stormhawk but the Corvus is really nice. I was suprised to see i can't transport primaris in it. Is it crazy for me to take it if I'm not using it as a transport? The points and firepower seem to compare very favourably to the stormtalon, 5 pts cheaper than the typhoon missile version but you're tougher, more wounds and can drop bombs. Granted the stormtalon isn't a great unit this edition. I'm almost tempted to fill it with 3x4 servitors and chuck them out around the board for board control/actions just to make use of the transport capacity!

Whilst losing access to SIA is a bit of a downer, you are not putting yourself at a disadvantage by sticking to Primaris. If you compare DW boltguns to Primaris bolter variants, they are quite comparable (DW bolter + Kraken bolts = Bolt Rifle statline). The real difference isn't bolters, but overall squad options and melee proficiency (free chainswords and more/better options on Vets/Proteus teams).

The Corvus is in a reasonable spot atm, it is priced very well compared to the Stormtalon like you highlighted. Gunship Flyers can still be good at sniping characters etc, and the shrouding strat is also interesting - just don't expect miracles from the Corvus.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 12:24:09


Post by: bullyboy


You should look at having one or two old marine units in your force, they are excellent. If you can find the old start collecting Deathwatch box, its a good one. Tons of weapon options, Artemis, and a ven dread. It also gives you your passengers for the cool looking corvus


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 13:43:58


Post by: Abaddon303


Hi thanks for the feedback. Yeh I am starting to come round to maybe taking a single melee oriented Proteus kill team to go in the Corvus. I guess I just wasn't particularly excited to build and paint more power armored little dudes after over 10,000pts of black legion!

Like I said, I'm looking at a loyalist force so i can have a play around with the newer primaris stuff but the DW kill team models are really nice and i believe slightly upscaled so maybe I'll enjoy it a little more. I can kit them all out as individual characters, not necessarily optimal but that's not my main aim for this army anyway. I guess my mentality is that i don't want to build an army in such a way as it is pointless being Deathwatch.

So if a melee/short-range Proteus Kill team is my first troops choice, i was thinking the following for my other two:

1. I know you questioned the efficiency over Veterans, but I feel like a big blob of 5 ABR Intercessors and 5 Assault Hellblasters is a really strong midfield unit that compliments each other, especially backed up with a chief apothecary and the dominus aegis it should be able to hold the centre and dishes out some nasty shooting. I reckon with a 5++, 6+++ and healing and revivals those 5 hellblasters should have a good chance of surviving the battle even overcharging here and there. That's 75 plasma shots throughout the course of the game!
(i also have a bunch of ints and hellblasters from picking up the dark imperium box last year)

2. A second Fortis kill team I just thought simply 5 stalker bolt rifle intercessors to hang back on a rear objective and combat squad out 5 outriders. I don't think you can really go wrong with this one, having 5 outriders with obsec is just crazy cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, couple of questions:
Regarding the specialisms, since Furor costs more points, why wouldn't i just give a unit Aquila and then pick troops? I don't quite understand the difference? I would have thought Aquila would be more expensive as it gets you around the single specialism limit.

I'm also wondering do people think a Watchmaster is worth taking? They seem a little limited for options so is access to Adaptive Tactics enough to make them worthwhile?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 14:51:33


Post by: Sterling191


Specialism are dual function. They impart baseline rerolls of 1 to wound against Favored Enemies, but if you chose their Favored Enemy as the target of your Deathwatch Chapter Tactic, that Specialist Kill Team powers up to rerolling ALL wounds against that specific battlefield role.

In that vein, if you're going Specialism heavy in your list building a Watch Master is mandatory. You need to be able to power up your various teams over the course of the game, and the WM is one of the only tools that allow us to do that.

Abaddon303 wrote:

1. I know you questioned the efficiency over Veterans, but I feel like a big blob of 5 ABR Intercessors and 5 Assault Hellblasters is a really strong midfield unit that compliments each other, especially backed up with a chief apothecary and the dominus aegis it should be able to hold the centre and dishes out some nasty shooting. I reckon with a 5++, 6+++ and healing and revivals those 5 hellblasters should have a good chance of surviving the battle even overcharging here and there. That's 75 plasma shots throughout the course of the game!
(i also have a bunch of ints and hellblasters from picking up the dark imperium box last year)


The problem comes down to, what is this unit good at killing, and how does it do it. Yes, it has a lot of mid strength high AP fire from the hellblasters, and a decent amount of bolter fire. That's reasonable for hunting light and medium infantry, as well as medium vehicles. The problem is, you're giving up all your melee capacity for this, and in 9th if you're going to dance in the midboard, you need to be able to hit back with quality attacks. Yes, the squad will put out 31 S4 AP0 D1 punches. But thats not going to cut it against most of the things that will be bearing down on the squad. Vets have the flexibility to gear for being killy at range, while also retaining enough melee threat to be genuinely scary for all but the most dedicated assault units to handle. While also being comparably pointed to the Fortis team you're envisioning.

Abaddon303 wrote:

2. A second Fortis kill team I just thought simply 5 stalker bolt rifle intercessors to hang back on a rear objective and combat squad out 5 outriders. I don't think you can really go wrong with this one, having 5 outriders with obsec is just crazy cool.


ObSec Outriders are certainly doing the memetic rounds these days. Keep in mind that the Intercessor element will not have access to the double tapping strat due to keyword shenanigans.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Like I said, I'm looking at a loyalist force so i can have a play around with the newer primaris stuff but the DW kill team models are really nice and i believe slightly upscaled so maybe I'll enjoy it a little more. I can kit them all out as individual characters, not necessarily optimal but that's not my main aim for this army anyway. I guess my mentality is that i don't want to build an army in such a way as it is pointless being Deathwatch.


Keep in mind, now that both Firstborn and Primaris have the 2W statline, there's literally nothing stopping you converting Primaris-scale bodies to function as Vets on the table.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 19:12:19


Post by: LunarSol


Sterling191 wrote:

Keep in mind, now that both Firstborn and Primaris have the 2W statline, there's literally nothing stopping you converting Primaris-scale bodies to function as Vets on the table.


Infiltrators look a LOT like Veterans with the pouches, fwiw. I'm not sure what else it would take to get them with the proper weapons, but their armor style is probably the closest.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 19:53:37


Post by: Abaddon303


Hmm, now that is an interesting proposition. I do love a bit of conversion. I have the primaris halves of both indomitus and dark Imperium and could also pick up the vanguard box pretty cheap. Between that lot and a few boxes of kill teams I could probably build whatever I wanted!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Am I right in saying firstborn arms and heads work fine on primaris bodies? Are the pauldrons the same size too?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/20 20:49:41


Post by: LunarSol


Arms and heads are a "tiny" bit smaller I believe. Hands are humorously about the same size though. Pauldrons are 100% the same size though.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/21 01:03:12


Post by: bullyboy


Buy the start collecting Deathwatch box. Sell the bodies and legs (plus associated pouches) online. Use weapons on Primaris bodies.
I can promise you, existing Deathwatch players have far more spare weapons than they have bodies.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/21 15:21:38


Post by: grouchoben


All my vets use Primaris legs. Cut the legs above the belt. The only bit that needs work is the removal/paring back of the back pouches on the vet body. I generally keep the knife and slice off their beltpacks.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/27 15:39:06


Post by: ChobitsCrazy


So question on the Indomitor Kill Team wargear options.

Under Wargear Options for the kill team we see "An Indomitor Kill Team has the following additional wargear options:" I take this to mean that the original wargear options for the datasheets are still in effect. Then under the Heavy Intercessor datasheet we see: "For every 5 models in the unit... rifle can be replaced with 1 heavy bolter..."

Does this mean if we take a kill team with 5 HI and 5 Eradicators the 5 HIs can take 2 heavy bolters?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/27 17:08:59


Post by: Insularum


 ChobitsCrazy wrote:
So question on the Indomitor Kill Team wargear options.

Under Wargear Options for the kill team we see "An Indomitor Kill Team has the following additional wargear options:" I take this to mean that the original wargear options for the datasheets are still in effect. Then under the Heavy Intercessor datasheet we see: "For every 5 models in the unit... rifle can be replaced with 1 heavy bolter..."

Does this mean if we take a kill team with 5 HI and 5 Eradicators the 5 HIs can take 2 heavy bolters?

I would say no. The creating kill teams rules cover this, it has to be models of the same original unit type not just overall models in the new kill team unit - the quoted example in that section is regular Intercessors and their grenade launchers, which is worded in exactly the same way as how HI take heavy bolters.

**edit**
10 HI bodies would be the only way to access 2 heavy bolters, you could do 1 10 man indomitor team like this if you planned on combat squadding:
2 heavy bolters
3 executor rifles
5 hellstorm rifles


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/27 17:28:22


Post by: ChobitsCrazy


Thank you, missed that piece.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/11/28 23:46:29


Post by: Runt Nosher


I played against my buddies old Custodes list and had some noteworthy moments. We played the scorched earth mission and both took the mission secondary kind of for a fun challenge. The amount of close combat through turn two and three was intense but it really was all over the board, we both had engage in all fronts as well as him having Assassinate and me taking Bring it Down.

Custodes list:

Dreadhost

Trajan Valoris
Allarus Shield Captain w/ Relic Axe and exploding 6’s
Vexilla w/ Praetorian Plate and Axe

3 x 3 Guards w/ Spear and Sword Board mixes
4 x Allarus Terminators
Achillus Contemptor
Galatus Contemptor

Telemon
Venerable Land Raider

Deathwatch:

Watchmaster w/ Relic Spear and +2 Strength
Captain w/ Xenophase Blade, Relic Shield w/ 5+ Invulnerable Aura, Vigil Incarnate
Chapter Champion w/ Reroll charges aura WT, Relic Sword, Adamantine Mantle (Vigil Unmatched)
Codicier Natorian

10 x Vets, 2 w/ Shield and Chainsword, Sergeant and Blackshield w/ Heavy Thunder Hammers, 6 w/ Boltgun, Power Sword
Corvus Blackstar

10 Vets, 4 w/ Missile Launcher, 3 w/ Bolter, Power Sword, 3 x Terminators w/ Powerfist, Storm Bolter and Cyclone Missiles

7 Vets, Sergeant w/ Xenophase Blade, Blackshield w/ twin lightning claws, 5 w/ Bolter, Power Sword
Rhino

10 Vets, 4 w/ Infernus Heavy Bolter, 1 w/ Bolter, Power Sword, 3 Bikers w/ Power Swords, 2 Vanguard w/ Storm Shield, Chainsword

5 Vets w/ Storm Bolter, Chainsword

Venerable Dreadnaught w/ Twin Lascannon and Fist

The Terminators caught 3 early invulnerable saves against the Land Raider after giving up first turn basically securing their reason for existence! We both poured almost all of our CP’s into pregame gear or deep striking stuff, it didn’t seem that stratagems played a huge part other than turning a few saves around, I think that might come with more experience. Everything I did went to plan, the surprise was his land raider. I was so busy dealing with all the units he deep striked right in my face that he was able to get 4 clear turns of shooting whittling down my Missile launcher squad early and turning around to vapourize the 5 man squad I tried bringing down in his backfield to pop one of the scorched earth objectives. I master crafted my sergeants Heavy thunder hammer and it honestly felt worth it when it took him and most of his squad to finish a telemon with 7 wounds off after taking down a three man Custodes squad the turn prior. The Chapter Champion for 70 or whatever points is just a dream in the Corvus. Alongside the Watchmaster it gives me so many high damage high output models that kind of felt like I cornered certain parts of my opponents army and forced some tough decisions. Maybe if he had brought bikes instead he could have dictated more flow. The Dread host came down turn two and he managed to go through a bunch of stuff but I was able to counter his placement pretty easily, he put his Galatus in a little pocket that I didn’t expect which I think if he put his Allarus Captain there instead the game would’ve been different.

I didn’t get the sense that either of us could shoot anything off the table, but as soon as close combat was met units just fell over left and right. Xenophase blades were uncanny, I managed to kill 1 full guardian with my watch sergeant and the captain poked the last wound off the Achillus last turn after the Chapter Champion did 9 wounds himself on the charge. I feel like these Veteran focused armies really do thrive on the gear customization and damage output while the primaris version of Deathwatch looks more stratagem driven and about trying to stretch out your durability. Nothing I put together using my vets comes close to the survivability and relative damage versus the target which said unit is most applicable at facing, such as inceptors, outriders and eradicators being known so well for taking down Marines, Hordes and multi wound targets respectively. I really like this new supplement and it’s forcing me to think all kinds of ways to play my old army through. I was planning on plugging all the Indomitus stuff into my Deathwatch but I feel like they are two entirely different armies at this point. I kind of want to build some salamanders too anyway...

By the middle of turn four he just didn’t have enough on the board to react in the places he needed to, while I started clearly pulling away with 15 point primary turns and securing my secondaries. This was my problem versus necrons before and I suspect against Marine armies that focus on bringing lots of plasma. I’d like to fit more Storm shields but I need the numbers in my units to do things like get two Heavy Hammers on the character models and the Biker/Vanguard mix for T5 w/ 4++ and the 10 Missile Squad. I could drop the power weapons from the bikers and maybe even a vet from the rhino still tho. I’m also thinking about putting plasma on the Storm Bolter squad because they don’t seem to do much but back field camp, I’d like the option to maybe throw them through the teleportarium as a distraction carnifex, I tried shotguns for funsies and coolness factor but losing the power swords is no bueno...


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/03 15:51:53


Post by: LunarSol


 LunarSol wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
They were ok at 10pts (per index), but 15pts puts them purely in fluff context now. I'll still take a few, but they need to go back to 10pts.


I think all of the index points feel better than what we got in the Codex. I'd not be at all surprised to discover their actually more current.


So, on this note, I finally bothered to unlock the codex in the app and all the points are from the Index. Watch Master is 130. Frag Cannon is 10. Stalker is 3. No cost on Terminator Power Swords, etc.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/03 18:29:22


Post by: Sterling191


We should be coming up on the codex FAQ this week or next. I suppose we'll have answers one way or another shortly.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/05 23:20:22


Post by: Chris521


Well, I been going through and re arming my vets to get a bit more variety in their loadouts. I'll be keeping a squad of storm bolters, but no more. While there isn't much incentive to mix different ranged weapons, I'm going to have a ton of variety with melee weapons to make the army more interesting.

Some new squads that I'm working on getting together are:

-I'm currently putting the finishing touches on a Fortis kill team with assault bolt rifle and assault plasma. It should put some decent mid range fire.

-I want to try out a Proteus kill team with 5 stalker bolters, 5 Vanguards and a kill team specialization. They would obviously combat squad, I would have 5 guys hanging back taking shot from an objective, and 5 vanguards with objective secured going in somewhere to cause trouble. It's kind of annoying that the stalkers can't have a melee weapons anymore, but I'm going to use the opportunity to do a little conversion.

-A very beefy Proteus kill team. I would have 3 terminators fully loaded with cyclone missile launchers as well as TH/SS backed up by assorted vets with storm shields. Due to how expensive those terminators are, I won't alocated any would to them untill evey one else is dead. I want this squad to be extremely hard to kill and will deep strike into a position that I want to keep. I may give them an apothecary and some HQ buffs.



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/07 12:24:57


Post by: Elfric


Hi guys, quick question as I dont have the codex yet, I presume Relic Terminators can be included in kill teams?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/07 13:59:04


Post by: Sterling191


 Elfric wrote:
Hi guys, quick question as I dont have the codex yet, I presume Relic Terminators can be included in kill teams?


They cannot.

However, with creative conversion and/or counts-as usage, I dont think anyone is going to begrudge you running Cataphracti/Tartatros models as Deathwatch Terminators for the Proteus Kill Team.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/07 15:38:12


Post by: LunarSol


Technically all Deathwatch Terimnators are conversions/counts as since they're a special datasheet that they don't sell a kit for. Make them out of whatever you want.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/09 14:36:19


Post by: Fictional


Sterling191 wrote:
 Elfric wrote:
Hi guys, quick question as I dont have the codex yet, I presume Relic Terminators can be included in kill teams?


They cannot.

However, with creative conversion and/or counts-as usage, I dont think anyone is going to begrudge you running Cataphracti/Tartatros models as Deathwatch Terminators for the Proteus Kill Team.


Yea, visually it doesnt matter and the actual unit datasheet stats are the same anyway, however, they would be limited to the Deathwatch Terminator loadouts, so Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons instead of Combi Bolters and Reaper autocannons.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/09 14:40:24


Post by: Sterling191


Fictional wrote:

Yea, visually it doesnt matter and the actual unit datasheet stats are the same anyway, however, they would be limited to the Deathwatch Terminator loadouts, so Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons instead of Combi Bolters and Reaper autocannons.


Indeed. Visually it wont be an issue, just be mindful of the stats.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/17 16:12:00


Post by: Sterling191


FAQ is live.

Black Shields can go in Proteus Kill Teams
Point values for multiple things were fixed (Terminators arent paying twice for basic power weapons, Stalker Boltguns are back down to 3ppm for Vets)
Tweaked some PL values (they're still stupidly overcosted for Kill Teams, sorry Crusade players)

Interestingly, Terminators appear to still be able to double up on heavy weapons, and also still impart their 5++ Crux Terminatus invuln to a Proteus Kill Team. All told not a lot of surprises here.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/17 16:49:16


Post by: LunarSol


5 man biker squads changed significantly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Double the cost on the Halo Launcher? Hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can now drop the SIA Centurian Sgt out of a Blackstar I guess, maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overall, pretty much all changes I expected. Surprised the Terminator thing wasn't touched. No surprises on the points. A bit sad on the Biker change just because I like the Outriders and there's no good Infantry to mix with them. The regular Biker version is now pretty significant I suppose.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 04:55:42


Post by: cuda1179


Terminators can no longer take power swords, power axes, or power mauls.

This alone makes me want to punch the FAQ guys.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 07:12:27


Post by: Eldarain


 cuda1179 wrote:
Terminators can no longer take power swords, power axes, or power mauls.

This alone makes me want to punch the FAQ guys.
Apparently they aren't gone but changed to 0 points? Something about 9th unit description saying if an option doesn't have a listed cost it's free. (I don't have the new book as the plague wiped out gaming for me)


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 09:57:08


Post by: Insularum


 Eldarain wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Terminators can no longer take power swords, power axes, or power mauls.

This alone makes me want to punch the FAQ guys.
Apparently they aren't gone but changed to 0 points? Something about 9th unit description saying if an option doesn't have a listed cost it's free. (I don't have the new book as the plague wiped out gaming for me)

Eldarain is correct, they have been deleted from the points list not the unit datasheet options - per both the main codex and supplement datasheet options with unlisted points are free so now terminator power weapons are just cheaper, not gone.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 12:15:29


Post by: bullyboy


The adjustment on points is mostly a side grade, nothing groundbreaking.
Reivers still pointless in Spectrus kill teams due to lack of infiltration.
Overall, it doesn't affect my lists with the exception of adding a Black Shield to Proteus teams (most of my watch force).


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 17:16:00


Post by: LunarSol


The Specialism cost decrease is probably the most significant/surprising change. Other than that, its pretty much expected.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 17:21:11


Post by: Flavius Infernus


What's the consensus on Frag Cannons now? Are they competitive with combi-plas at the same points cost?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 17:39:04


Post by: cuda1179


 Flavius Infernus wrote:
What's the consensus on Frag Cannons now? Are they competitive with combi-plas at the same points cost?


I'd say they are okayish, and have their roll. They aren't the beatstick they used to be in the last codex, but for 10 points they're not a bad choice now.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 17:44:23


Post by: Abaddon303


Sterling191 wrote:
FAQ is live.

Black Shields can go in Proteus Kill Teams
Point values for multiple things were fixed (Terminators arent paying twice for basic power weapons, Stalker Boltguns are back down to 3ppm for Vets)
Tweaked some PL values (they're still stupidly overcosted for Kill Teams, sorry Crusade players)

Interestingly, Terminators appear to still be able to double up on heavy weapons, and also still impart their 5++ Crux Terminatus invuln to a Proteus Kill Team. All told not a lot of surprises here.


Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 17:54:13


Post by: LunarSol


Abaddon303 wrote:

Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?


Crux Terminatus says "Every model in this unit". There's no call out in the Proteus rules that changes this to only apply to the Terminators the way we see with Devastating Charge or Multi-spectrum Array. Almost certainly a (double) oversight, particularly since it doesn't worth that way for KT Cassius, but for now it works on everyone.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 17:55:17


Post by: Sterling191


Abaddon303 wrote:

Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?


The wording on the Deathwatch Terminator Crux Terminatus ability is as follows:

"Every model in this unit has a 5+ Invulnerable save".

The Mixed Unit rule imparts that ability in its entirety to any Proteus Kill Team with at least 1 terminator in it.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 18:33:23


Post by: Abaddon303


Oh, yeh I think that's definitely an oversight. Surely no one's gonna try and play it that way?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/18 22:22:10


Post by: cuda1179


Sterling191 wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:

Sorry what do you mean by this? The 5++ is only if you choose to take the wound on a terminator isn't it?


The wording on the Deathwatch Terminator Crux Terminatus ability is as follows:

"Every model in this unit has a 5+ Invulnerable save".

The Mixed Unit rule imparts that ability in its entirety to any Proteus Kill Team with at least 1 terminator in it.


Wow, I totally overlooked that. Cheesy rules lawyering, but is technically RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Oh, yeh I think that's definitely an oversight. Surely no one's gonna try and play it that way?



I have a Deathguard friend. We were talking about his new loophole, in that DG Rhinos can now do old-school Rhino rush. Since they always count as stationary they can move, then disembark, then troops move and assault. If this is his interpretation of those rules interactions (and I agree it's RAW) then he better not give me any guff about sharing a 5++.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/19 07:18:27


Post by: Eldarain


I'm not sure if not counting as moving satisfies disembarking before a transport moves but that's probably a thread for YMDC


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/23 18:01:29


Post by: Niiru


Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?

Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/23 19:26:24


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:
Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?


You're going to need to define "terminator heavy". There's very much play in multiple terminators in Proteus teams, and if built for a specific purpose in mind I can see a squad of standalone fellas doing some work.

Niiru wrote:


Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?


Redemptors and VenDreads are exceptional in a Deathwatch force.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/23 19:47:45


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?


You're going to need to define "terminator heavy". There's very much play in multiple terminators in Proteus teams, and if built for a specific purpose in mind I can see a squad of standalone fellas doing some work.

Niiru wrote:


Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?


Redemptors and VenDreads are exceptional in a Deathwatch force.



I'm just trying to think of a 'space marine' list for an upcoming campaign, but without it being a 'same old' kind of list. Was thinking of going elite-heavy or walker-heavy. So terminators, centurions, dreadnoughts. Considered having gravis as my troops, but I still want my list to be decently strong, and I suspect proteus teams will still be the better pick... but that at least means I can have terminators in each squad, which would fit the theme.

What loadouts would you have for redemptors and vens? with the teleportarium, I wondered if there were any normally-poor weapon choices (due to short range) that becomes much better when you can drop-and-shoot..


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/23 23:05:08


Post by: Abaddon303


Sterling191 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Is there any play in a terminator-heavy deathwatch list? I know we don't have the dark angel level of buffs, but anything we bring to the table?


You're going to need to define "terminator heavy". There's very much play in multiple terminators in Proteus teams, and if built for a specific purpose in mind I can see a squad of standalone fellas doing some work.

Niiru wrote:


Also, any dreadnought options worth bringing that we have any benefits with?


Redemptors and VenDreads are exceptional in a Deathwatch force.


Interested in why you say this. What is it about deathwatch that makes redemptors and vendreads exceptional compared to other chapters? The ability to teleport?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 04:02:32


Post by: cuda1179


I haven't played Deathwatch in 9th yet. I am however REALLY interested in teleport homers in Proteus kill teams. Even though it is a once-per game ability, it has so many tactical uses. You can bate an enemy into a corner and teleport just to make him footslog back across the board. You can use one fast unit (bikers, Blackstar) to zoom up the board and teleport in multiple squads. You can even mimic old-school Necron VoD tactics by teleporting out of close combat with someone you can't handle only to leave them open to massed firepower.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 14:00:54


Post by: Sterling191


Abaddon303 wrote:

Interested in why you say this. What is it about deathwatch that makes redemptors and vendreads exceptional compared to other chapters? The ability to teleport?


Teleportation is part of it, the other is the suite of buffs (both defensive and offensive) that Deathwatch bring to the table, most of which are relic, WLT or stratagem based and dont require the randomness of dice to cooperate. The faction as a whole relies on souping up specific units at specific times to do the business, and with the Core keyword Dreads get in on that party in a big way.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I haven't played Deathwatch in 9th yet. I am however REALLY interested in teleport homers in Proteus kill teams. Even though it is a once-per game ability, it has so many tactical uses. You can bate an enemy into a corner and teleport just to make him footslog back across the board. You can use one fast unit (bikers, Blackstar) to zoom up the board and teleport in multiple squads. You can even mimic old-school Necron VoD tactics by teleporting out of close combat with someone you can't handle only to leave them open to massed firepower.


Keep in mind that the homer does not let you re-deploy on the same turn that you vanish. Yes it's powerful, but it's got a significant opportunity cost. I'm not saying that opportunity cost isnt worth paying in a lot of cases (I absolutely think the 5 points per squad is worth the capacity to pull mid-game redeploy shenanigans), it's just not as easy to use as something like the 8th edition Dark Matter crystal or other analogous tricks.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 16:11:02


Post by: kaiservonhugal


Im sorry for the double post - this is where this post belongs. Would love to hear other's thoughts on the new Dex.

Some awesome elements of the new Dex:

Relics:
the Aegis Dominus - to really make that Chief Apothecary obnoxious.

The Tome of Ectoclades - its like the Seal of Oath, but can target more than one unit.

The Beacon Angelus - it still works, a first turn alpha/beta strike could look like a Drop Pop full of your choice of Deathwatch Veterans - I like Frag Cannons for this one. A Master of Sanctity on a bike with the Beacon and Recitation of Focus, Catechism of Fire, Hero of the Chapter: Nowhere to Hide. And a second unit dedicated to killing whatever target youre pouncing on. Your list probably has a Kill team for killing armor, heavy and light infantry. Grab the appropriate tool, apply those litanies from the safety of your DZ. In the movement phase advance your chaplain, beacon over the unit and end with bringing in your drop pod. If you can wait a turn and have one - the Termite Drill is better.

WLT's: Optimized Priority is solid considering the bulk of your infantry are large chucks of your points, youll need to make use of them killing as well as scoring secondaries. If you add a unit of Company Vets, you may not need this one. I take it in ever list Ive built.
You have access to every chapter's WLT now via Paragon of Their Chapter. The standouts for me are: Adept of the Codex and Brilliant Strategist.

Teleport Homers are good. If you take Kill Teams with a terminator - take one.

We've lost SIA effectively but have gained large units of OBSEC units other chapters do not have access. I need more testing but I think you're better off with taking 4 bikers and having the 5th member being infantry so that you retain movement shenanigans. 5 Inceptors with ablative wounds (once we can buy Heavy Intercessors), 4 or 5 Eliminators with Lasfusils are good (so are snipers to kill opposing Chief Apothecaries) as are 4 Eliminators with an Infiltrator with the Helix.

I still like Proteus Kill Teams, but I would first have 2 Fortis Outrider Kill teams or one and a Proteus team with 1st Born bikers.

If you're going with the Chief Apothecary and Dominus Aegis, you'll want those units with bikers as they have a huge footprint and can string back to those character buffs. If not then combat squad'ing is something to consider. If combat sqad'ing then think about mixing units to gain maximum benefit from squad type/toughness rules.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 17:12:46


Post by: Niiru


 kaiservonhugal wrote:


If you're going with the Chief Apothecary and Dominus Aegis


You mention this twice, and it's a common mistake, but pretty sure you can't have the aegis on an apothecary. You have to take a character with a shield, which means a captain or a champion. So it seems like you often have to make a choice between having and apothecary or having the aegis, as fitting both into an army is difficult due to slots/points limitations (you also want a librarian and a watch master and maybe a chaplain... Lots to fit in).


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 17:23:28


Post by: kaiservonhugal


Ok. I'm talking about list building. I assumed readers in this thread would conclude the apothecary and dominus Aegis were two different characters. One being an apothecary and another being a captain carrying a shield that can be upgraded to the Dominus.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 17:35:50


Post by: Niiru


 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Ok. I'm talking about list building. I assumed readers in this thread would conclude the apothecary and dominus Aegis were two different characters. One being an apothecary and another being a captain carrying a shield that can be upgraded to the Dominus.


It would have been a pretty big conclusion to jump to, as you only ever mention the aegis being with the apothecary lol.

Still not sure if the apothecary is worth the points cost. Depends on what unit you out him with etc


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 17:48:09


Post by: kaiservonhugal


Ok. Not sure the apothecary is worth it. Lol. That speaks volumes. I think the real question is whether or not to include company veterans to protect him.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 18:12:32


Post by: Niiru


 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Ok. Not sure the apothecary is worth it. Lol. That speaks volumes. I think the real question is whether or not to include company veterans to protect him.


His efficiency relies on what units he's with. If he's casting with a bunch of gravis, then it may work out. If you're running a lot of bikes he's useful in theory but in practise he's mostly out of range or making the bikes slow (we don't have a bike or jetpack apothecary like other armies, if we did things would be hugely different).

Also his fnp doesn't stack with the better fnp we already have access to, so it would depend again on what units you want protected and whether he is able to be in the right places to do so. 100pts to protect a backfield squad that is already well protected is likely a waste when having more guns instead might be more useful to win the game.

If you run a lot of 3w models though his usefulness increases significantly. So as I said - depends on what units you run with him.

Running company vets to bodyguard him seems unlikely to be worthwhile though.


On another note - is there a consensus on terminators vs gravis? Pros and cons etc? Seems terminators are fine for melee but gravis are better for shooty?


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 20:24:18


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:

On another note - is there a consensus on terminators vs gravis? Pros and cons etc? Seems terminators are fine for melee but gravis are better for shooty?


Different tools for different jobs. Inceptors are terrifying gunships, Aggressors are budget Assault Centurions (realistically, if you're running Aggressors it isnt for their shooting but for their capacity to scare the crap out of medium to heavy infantry or vehicles in melee), while Eradicators are, well, Eradicators.

Of the standalone Gravis types, Inceptors and Eradicators are the most at home in a DW list, while Aggressors are a bit of a wild card that can definitely benefit from some of our tricks, but unfortunately are a bit on the points inefficient side.

Where things get more complicated is when you start looking at them in Kill Teams, and in all seriousness I dont think we have near enough experience or data to speak to that definitively with the new Codex. Likewise for Terminators. There's what they *should* do on paper, but reality is often far different.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Ok. Not sure the apothecary is worth it. Lol. That speaks volumes. I think the real question is whether or not to include company veterans to protect him.


Realistically, to outperform the 5++/5+++ a Librarian can deploy, the Apothecary is not an auto-take in all circumstances.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 20:48:51


Post by: Niiru


Sterling191 wrote:
Niiru wrote:

On another note - is there a consensus on terminators vs gravis? Pros and cons etc? Seems terminators are fine for melee but gravis are better for shooty?


Different tools for different jobs. Inceptors are terrifying gunships, Aggressors are budget Assault Centurions (realistically, if you're running Aggressors it isnt for their shooting but for their capacity to scare the crap out of medium to heavy infantry or vehicles in melee), while Eradicators are, well, Eradicators.

Of the standalone Gravis types, Inceptors and Eradicators are the most at home in a DW list, while Aggressors are a bit of a wild card that can definitely benefit from some of our tricks, but unfortunately are a bit on the points inefficient side.




Is there a place for centurions, or are 'budget' centurions the better option right now?

Any thoughts on the dreadnought choices, and whether or not teleporting them is worthwhile? I've been advised elsewhere that the plasma redemptor is a good choice, but not to teleport just have it walking. I had an Ironclad raised as being a good teleport option, but not sure on that one.

Additional: Do we have any access to any way to get a more reliable charge off from deepstrike/teleport? I haven't noticed anything, and I've realised that this is a big issue when it comes to a potential deepstriking lightning-claw force. (Thought it does make me consider putting them in a blackstar instead).

Additional 2: Just noticed that on battlescribe (I think it's a legends thing maybe) you can give a storm shield to a librarian. Meaning you can give him Aegis as well. Interesting, shame it's not tournament-legal.




(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 22:14:54


Post by: Sterling191


Niiru wrote:


Is there a place for centurions, or are 'budget' centurions the better option right now?


We're firmly in "needs more data" territory, but for everything excepting bleeding edge competitive I do think assault centurions are viable. Port em in, drop em from the sky out of a Corvus, yoink em across the board with the Beacon, whack em with the +2 to charge litany and cackle as they tear things to pieces.

Niiru wrote:

Any thoughts on the dreadnought choices, and whether or not teleporting them is worthwhile? I've been advised elsewhere that the plasma redemptor is a good choice, but not to teleport just have it walking. I had an Ironclad raised as being a good teleport option, but not sure on that one.


I am a massive fan of the plasma Redemptor in 9th. The flat 3 damage profile on the gun, plus the d3+3 damage on the fist (plus its supporting guns) make it an all aspect threat that flat out cannot be ignored. Get two, park an Aegis character between them and march em right up the gut.

Alternatively, a TwinLas + Fist VenDread fills a similar niche without a degrading profile and with a baked in 6+++, albeit nowhere near as efficiently.

Niiru wrote:

Additional: Do we have any access to any way to get a more reliable charge off from deepstrike/teleport? I haven't noticed anything, and I've realised that this is a big issue when it comes to a potential deepstriking lightning-claw force. (Thought it does make me consider putting them in a blackstar instead).


A Chaplain with Inspiring Oratory is your friend here. A rerollable 7" charge is not perfect, but the odds are in your favor.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/24 22:25:09


Post by: Niiru





Basically I'm about to enter an escalating Crusade compaign, and I'm heavily considering going Deathwatch for it (instead of my usual Eldar). Wondering if anyone had any tips for a 1000pt starting force?

Trying to mess around adding some of the units from above. So Redemptors, terminators, centurions, things of that nature. Ends up being very elite and expensive, but still.

Proteus teams are likely to be my go-to for troops (I'm even considering making an all-oldmarine list, with vets and terminators), but I'm not sure the best way to run them. Shield+LC seems decent (if I can get them into combat) or shield+combimelta / combiflamer maybe.

Any tips or a rough outline for 1000 points would be appreciated, as it's such a small points value its hard to know whats worthwhile. Though we will gradually grow our rosters so it won't be too bad over time.


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/25 00:39:38


Post by: Insularum


Sterling191 wrote:
*snip*
Niiru wrote:

Additional: Do we have any access to any way to get a more reliable charge off from deepstrike/teleport? I haven't noticed anything, and I've realised that this is a big issue when it comes to a potential deepstriking lightning-claw force. (Thought it does make me consider putting them in a blackstar instead).


A Chaplain with Inspiring Oratory is your friend here. A rerollable 7" charge is not perfect, but the odds are in your favor.

To chime in on deepstrike charges, The inspiring oratory move is one I'm trying out with regular codex marines (mass terminator drop). DW specific I'm trying to figure out how to make this 3 character tag team work, but it seems like too much of an investment that would lead to a one trick pony army:

Characters:
Watch Master
Primaris Chaplain on bike (master of sanctity, wise orator, canticle of hate, recitation of focus, beacon angelis)
Any librarian (probably phobos, peremorphic resonance, fortified with contempt)

The characters will be accompanied by:
Fortis bikers
A shooty core unit (preferably proteus cyclone missiles or indomitor eradicators, or 10 intercessors if I'm tight on points)
A fighty core unit (preferably indomitor aggressors)
A gatling redemptor dread or 2 (teleporting)

Turn 1:
The watch master tags the fighty unit with rerolls, chaplain recites litanies (tag shooty unit with +1 to hit, create charge aura), libby tags fighty unit with both powers
Shooty unit now has 2+ to hit/reroll 1's, fighty unit has hit rerolls for the turn and potential +1 in melee
Surge forwards with the biker pack, and beacon the fighty unit into 7" charge range. The bikes may struggle to charge T1, but are a potential

Turn 2:
Watch master can now tag the shooty unit with rerolls
Libby does as he pleases (if phobos is a potential self buffed fighter, otherwise buffs gunline and smites)
Chaplain repositions to assist teleport arrivals (may switch to litany of hate if no good shooty units in range)
Dread(s) arrive to use 7" charge aura

The awesome speed of the chaplain biker should allow for some precision charge aura buffs, and I really like the idea of getting aggressors up in your face on turn 1 (shooting with rerolls, fighting with rerolls, having 5+++ and heavy intercessor ablative armour, having a solidly buffed overwatch etc). It just seems like an 8th ed army plan though - all fight no objectives...


(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/25 21:57:31


Post by: Niiru


Maybe I'll simplify my previous question a bit -

Anyone got a favourite go-to killteam that they always use? (or plan to use, considering maybe you haven't been playing lately).


Also - Terminator loadout, is this valid? Cyclone + thunder hammer + storm shield. I thought you couldn't swap the storm bolter twice, but I can't find the faq that I thought existed to prevent it.

Also Also - Did we ever get any conclusion on how the teleportarium strat interacts with combat squadding units?



(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica @ 2020/12/26 05:46:49


Post by: cuda1179


My favorite kill team loadouts Include;

2 veterans with chainsword/bolter, 4 vets with Frag cannon, Vet serg. with lightning claw/bolter, blackshield with bolter/power sword, and 2 terminators with cyclone/thunder hammer/ shield.


The suicide squad of 10 guys with chainsword/meltagun mounted in a drop pod.

It sounds overly simple, but a squad with 5 Intercessors and 5 hellblasters isn't too bad.