In short, not only is Jamie Foxx back as Electro? But Alfred Molina is back as Doctor Octopus...which is pretty wild casting if you ask me.
Interestingly though, it seems the as yet untitled sequel to Far From Home is scheduled for release before Dr Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. Indeed, if the release schedule runs true to the current plan (in this economy??), we’ll likely have seen it by this time next year, according to Wikipedia.
We also get Wandavision on Disney+ first.
My reckons here is that all the buggering about with the very fabric of the universe in Infinity War and End Game messed up the barriers between worlds, allowing bleed through etc.
Oh, and we of course have Black Widow to come in between. I’ll bet she’s back from the ded - after all, Banner only said I tried. Given where she snuffed it, and where things left off, they’ve no way of knowing he failed in that endeavour.
I know opinions will vary, but after a year of rest from the cultural juggernaught that is the MCU, I’m happy to see the hype train coming back down the track!
If they’re going multi-verse (and they may not be), who can tell!
I do wonder if this is partially Stunt Casting, and they’ll be little more than cameo, rather than fuller roles.
They could even be in-jokes. Such as someone making in-universe Spidey inspired films, with Foxx and Molina playing themselves playing Electro and Doc Ock.
I personally think this is a huge mistake driven by Sony's idiot corporate lusts.
Holland's Parker was left in a good spot for his own story where he really gets to be his own person with a good set of villains to come after him (scorpion and kraven since he is no doubt being hunted).
But this... This is a fething mess. It's spider man 3 and amazing spiderman 2 again. Just cram everything in and maybe you get a story out of it? None of this sounds good to me.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I mean, Into the Spiderverse did well to introduce people to the concepts of Multverse shenanigan's, even if it wasn't MCU.
Yeah, but it was a movie specifically ABOUT that. Tom Holland is already in a situation when this movie starts that arguably is a whole movie in and of itself (Being hunted for the death of Mysterio). So in the midst of being hunted.... 2 more Spiderman + Electro + Dr Octopus + Casting for Kraven so on and so forth. It's too much.
Thus far the MCU has been pretty solid. Even the 'bad' releases have been entertaining, and the good ones have been very good indeed. Unless I hear some really bad reviews from my friends, I'll almost certainly go see it.
It would be sad if this is the movie that breaks the MCU's streak...
I haven't liked either of the MCU's Spider-man movies thanks to all the high school drama bits.
So I'm happy for the next film to throw whatever it likes at Spidey, as long as it keeps him out of school.
Having said that, isn't Dr. Strange meant to be in this as well?
The whole multiverse bit could just be him showing a depressed Peter how other Spider-men are doing.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I mean, Into the Spiderverse did well to introduce people to the concepts of Multverse shenanigan's, even if it wasn't MCU.
Yeah, but it was a movie specifically ABOUT that. Tom Holland is already in a situation when this movie starts that arguably is a whole movie in and of itself (Being hunted for the death of Mysterio). So in the midst of being hunted.... 2 more Spiderman + Electro + Dr Octopus + Casting for Kraven so on and so forth. It's too much.
It’s more the reveal of Spidey as Peter Parker.
Mysterio’s whopping great ribs are easily debunked - after all, Spidey was operating on SHIELD’s orders. With everyone rounded up and under arrest, the real footage will be in the hands of law enforcement.
If the previous Spideys are here? Possibly borrowed from other dimensions, so Spidey can be seen to Spidey whilst Parker’s location is shown elsewhere. All sorts can be done without it getting even close to “super duper jump 12 sharks ultra mega final team up”
hotsauceman1 wrote: I mean, Into the Spiderverse did well to introduce people to the concepts of Multverse shenanigan's, even if it wasn't MCU.
Yeah, but it was a movie specifically ABOUT that. Tom Holland is already in a situation when this movie starts that arguably is a whole movie in and of itself (Being hunted for the death of Mysterio). So in the midst of being hunted.... 2 more Spiderman + Electro + Dr Octopus + Casting for Kraven so on and so forth. It's too much.
This is Holland's way out. Now there are multiple Spider-Men, who's to say that the one 'revealed' by JJJ really was the one who murdered Mysterio?
Pin it on McGuire. His version deserves it most after SM3.
Bring in Doc Oc permanently, as Alfred Molinia was the best thing in that entire trilogy by miles. Yes, even including Willem Defoe.
Spider-Man (Maguire): What are those things on your wrists?
Spider-Man (Garfield): What? You mean these?
Spider-Man (Maguire): Yeah.
Spider-Man (Holland): They're web-shooters. I've got ones on my suit too.
Spider-Man (Maguire): You don't shoot webs naturally?
Spider-Man (Garfield): You do?
Spider-Man (Holland): Aw dude! That's super gross!
I'm guessing most of this is going to be minor cameos of some sort more than major characters. Mostly just an excuse to get the Sinister Six together quickly by cribbing a couple members from parallel realities.There will be a main villain driving everything and the Jamie and Molina will get to pose menacingly behind them and get in on the action. I'm more curious how Ock is alive, but whatever.
I dont want milonas doc oct. He was a big enough idiot to build a sun in a small room with an exposed microchip to stop his robot arms from taking over his mind.
Do an MCU doc oct thats actually wholly good.
Also his plan to fund his research was to steal big sacks full of quarters with dollar signs on them.
Easy E wrote: are they just going to make Into the Spider-verse: Live Action ? Because that would be super lame.
I am with Lance on this one.
I don't think they actually will. I think those elements will be fairly light overall and mostly used to connect it to the rest of the multiverse aesthetic they're going for while bringing in a couple ringers for the Six without having to set them up.
aku-chan wrote: I haven't liked either of the MCU's Spider-man movies thanks to all the high school drama bits.
So I'm happy for the next film to throw whatever it likes at Spidey, as long as it keeps him out of school.
My biggest problem is that he isnt shown how many other Spidermen are. HE isnt shown to be this incredibly intelligent guerilla scientist who mades his own gear and suit.
He was given everything.
And then what they did to Mary Jane and how they ruined her entire character, and how he has literally NONE of spidermans supporting characters, no harry, no norman. no JJJ. He is literally, just spiderman, Iron Mans pet project.
aku-chan wrote: I haven't liked either of the MCU's Spider-man movies thanks to all the high school drama bits. So I'm happy for the next film to throw whatever it likes at Spidey, as long as it keeps him out of school.
My biggest problem is that he isnt shown how many other Spidermen are. HE isnt shown to be this incredibly intelligent guerilla scientist who mades his own gear and suit. He was given everything. And then what they did to Mary Jane and how they ruined her entire character, and how he has literally NONE of spidermans supporting characters, no harry, no norman. no JJJ. He is literally, just spiderman, Iron Mans pet project.
I have to agree with that aspect. Spider-Man really does lack an identity as far as his presence in the MCU goes as he's just being set up as Stark's successor, since all of his villains are derived from Stark and not himself. Vulture's background is tied to his grudge against Tony. Likewise with Quentin Beck, being a disgruntled former employee of Stark. And all the stuff Spiderman faced up until this point is because of his ties to Tony/the Avengers.
Which is a shame since it's abundantly clear from the previous spider man movies that Peter doesn't need that kind of ensemble support to make a movie about him work.
In some ways this harkens back to early Spidey though. A lot of the villains didn't really have a beef with Spiderman. It was usually Norman or JJJ or someone similar. They developed a grudge with Spiderman after being stopped initially. Stark is really more than anything filling the role Norman once did.
Also a LOT of the MCU Spiderman is just 616 names plastered over Ultimate Miles's characters. Not really a bad thing; just a part of the whole "modern Spiderman" thing that makes Miles work so well in the first place. Basically the same thing you see DC do with Barry acting like Wally as the Flash.
The MCU Spidey is kinda mix of their Tony Stark (total tech head, doesn’t always look at the bigger picture) and Steve Rogers (ultimately, just a kid who wants to help people, albeit one given immense powers in one-off situations).
That his villains aren’t his doing makes him more heroic, not less. He goes up against them not simply because of being super powered, but because he feels he must.
Stark recognised this, hence urging him to be Friendly Neighbourhood.
I'm not necessarily saying the villains have to be created by him, since that opens a whole other can of worms, but rather that they're really not tied to Peter at all. Osborn as Green Goblin builds tension between Peter and him since he is his best friend's dad, who usually likes Peter over Harry due to several reasons. Doc Ock is usually framed as a friend or mentor of Peter in movies/video games (I know that's not the usual comic book history but it's a lot harder to establish backstory effectively in a movie medium otherwise) which makes his turn to villainy more tragic. Doctor Connors has the same potential arc as a villain when he turns into the Lizard. Venom's whole thing is to be Spider-Man's nemesis before they did that bizarre standalone movie.
I just think it's kinda crappy for him to be in a situation where Peter is stuck perpetually cleaning up Tony's messes rather than being allowed to develop his own tensions with them that go beyond their grudges against Stark.
It's also kind of dumb that at this point literally every villain has been turned into "potential father figure filling the void left by Uncle Ben who genuinely cares for Peter while also hating Spider-Man".
LunarSol wrote: It's also kind of dumb that at this point literally every villain has been turned into "potential father figure filling the void left by Uncle Ben who genuinely cares for Peter while also hating Spider-Man".
I think this is their lazy way of connecting Peter to the villain without having to put too much effort into their villainous motivations and drawing sympathy to their character just by virtue of filling that father figure role.
Part of the reason why I wanted Kingpin (and why he worked in Spider-verse pretty well) or Tombstone as an overarching villain is because they both avoid those traps while also having the overarching influence and crime acumen to not just get punched by Spidey in public like most of the other villains do since they have the "air" of legitimacy with their criminal enterprises having legal fronts. It's also a way to keep them as recurring bad guys since they're usually smart enough to use other pawns to do their dirty work.
The MCU is extremely guilty of offing the majority of their villains (barring Loki, which is more of an anti-hero, and Thanos) in a single movie.
While this is all beginning to smell like throwing gak at the wall to see what sticks, allegedly "reliable" sources are today reporting that Charlie Cox is set to play Matt Murdock once more in the Spiderman 3.
The MCU Spidey films have been avoiding what the previous two incarnations have done, which is why the villains are all different and why we're not having all them relate to Spider-Man somehow.
I mean, every villain in the previous Spider-Man films was known by Peter in some way prior to their villaindom (except maybe Rhino in ASM2). Here they all stem from Tony Stark.
They've not done Osborn because they've already done Osborn. Twice. They're not doing Harry as they've already done Harry. Twice.
I'm not saying it's perfect (the removal of both Gwen and Mary Jane in the MCU is a really odd choice, given how intrinsic they are to the character's story), but I don't mind them trying to tell a different Spider-Man story than the one we're used to.
Of course, now every Spider-Man ever will be in the next film, so that all goes out the window.
LunarSol wrote: It's also kind of dumb that at this point literally every villain has been turned into "potential father figure filling the void left by Uncle Ben who genuinely cares for Peter while also hating Spider-Man".
I think this is their lazy way of connecting Peter to the villain without having to put too much effort into their villainous motivations and drawing sympathy to their character just by virtue of filling that father figure role.
Part of the reason why I wanted Kingpin (and why he worked in Spider-verse pretty well) or Tombstone as an overarching villain is because they both avoid those traps while also having the overarching influence and crime acumen to not just get punched by Spidey in public like most of the other villains do since they have the "air" of legitimacy with their criminal enterprises having legal fronts. It's also a way to keep them as recurring bad guys since they're usually smart enough to use other pawns to do their dirty work.
The MCU is extremely guilty of offing the majority of their villains (barring Loki, which is more of an anti-hero, and Thanos) in a single movie.
To be fair, they’ve “killed” Loki like twice now, not even counting the time he faked it.
Lance845 wrote: 3 Spidermans
Maguires Doc Oct.
Electro but this time not blue
Kraven the Hunter
Dr. Strange
Dare Devil
Potential links to Venom.
Crowded enough yet?
I can't imagine how they're ever going to make a movie with so many characters work.
It's not Marvel. It's Sony. And they gak the bed when it was just Harry Osborn, Venom, and Sandman. Or Electro, Rhino, and a basement full of backpacks. I have faith that Marvel knows what they are doing. I have ZERO faith in Sony.
IDK, Spuiderverse worked well despite so many characters.
Its just they tried too soon to build up sinister six in Amazing Spiderman 2(Which i enjoyed, i think all the pre MCU movies are very good TBH)
For how complicated a multiverse can be Spiderverse is a pretty simple narrative that lines everything up and goes in a singular direction. You have Miles as your POV with Noir, Penny, and Ham barely being characters in the movie. Even Gwen has no real story to herself. Shes mostly there to be the positivity to B Parker's negativity. It basically has to be that way for it not to become a convoluted mess.
The logical story is Peter dealing with being hunted. Is the multiverse a second backup story to that?
Is his being hunted being turned into the B plot?
How is Dare Devil supposed to fit into that? It's not Just Holland discovering a multiverse of Peters and alternate villains he hasn't met yet (or is meeting because they are from his universe? Who the hell knows?)
Imagine, if you will, if the Spiderverse movie included Dr. Strange showing up to explain the multiverse and help spiderman, along with Moon Knight crashing the party on top of the multiversal spidermen while who knows what the hell Kraven, Electro, and Doc Oct are up to because Kraven is hunting Holland for something that has nothing to do with a multiverse and Electro isn't even the blue version so maybe he's Kravens partner? Or a different multiverse version?
This screams of execs trying to smash 2 things that have been profitable together because $ + $ = $$ right?! RIGHT!?
Just because a character is cast and appears in the movie, doesn't mean that they have to do a huge amount of heavy lifting.
Maguire, Garfield etc may only make the briefest of appearances, akin to Ezra Miller in the Arrow verse Crisis event. Matt Murdock may appear solely as Peter's laywer and not as DD, and in turn perhaps only for a few scenes.
The whole nature of the MCU and their attempt to do something similar to the comic universe is that a character appearing in another character's movie doesn't necessarily have to be a big deal, nor instrumental to the plot.
Sony owns the rights to Spider-man, but let's not pretend that this isn't a Marvel film. It's a Marvel film in everything but name.
Doubly so if they're going to let characters they do own play in that sandbox. If the likes of DD or Strange feature even tangentially, you can bet there's heavy caveats at work in the contracts.
I could just have my back up because Sony. They were about to break contract with Marvel until they came to whatever mysterious agreement they came to for this next movie. I don't know what that means. Does Sony have more say in the story for the Spiderman movie then they did before? We just don't know.
Best case scenario is Dr. Strange does a little multiverse mojo and all these actors just show up in little bubbles floating around the room in a segment that takes less then 2 minutes and then Matt Murdoc is Peter's lawyer. That would be fine.
But Sony has a terrible track record with 3rds and we just don't know what they are allowed to do anymore.
I fully admit I am paranoid that Sony is going to burn this spiderman to the ground trying to make their other "spider" properties part of the MCU. I REALLY think they want Venom and the upcoming Morbius and Silver/Black, and their always threatened sinister six movie to gain legitimacy by becoming part of the MCU and I fear this is them trying to do that.
All these characters makes me think its either all fake, or we are going to get something like this universes peter is unsure about his future and gets a pep talk from the two other spidermen. Somelike like from Mcquir grew older, had a family or something after all of it, but is still spiderman, while Garfield tells him about Gwen and how he beat him down but he got up and so will he. and the reason other actors are there is for new, more modern scenes for a flashback
Maybe it's all like the next Suicide Squad movie and half the named actors are gonna die in the first 5 minutes. Toby's version deserves it for making us suffer Emo-Spiderman.
I have heard 1 good explanation for emo spiderman. The suit taps into what you know and what you feel and enhances it. Mcguire spiderman is a big enough nerd that that is what HE thinks is cool which is why he starts acting like that. It's not that it IS cool. It's that he THINKS its cool. Mcguire Spiderman was always the absolute worst.
Lance845 wrote: I have heard 1 good explanation for emo spiderman. The suit taps into what you know and what you feel and enhances it. Mcguire spiderman is a big enough nerd that that is what HE thinks is cool which is why he starts acting like that. It's not that it IS cool. It's that he THINKS its cool. Mcguire Spiderman was always the absolute worst.
This is 100% the intention. I'm always surprised people think otherwise. Peter just embarrasses himself with overconfidence while every background extra is clearly not impressed. I always found it kind of hilarious and far from the biggest issue that film has.
Henry wrote: Maybe it's all like the next Suicide Squad movie and half the named actors are gonna die in the first 5 minutes. Toby's version deserves it for making us suffer Emo-Spiderman.
I recall the first one being pretty good as the lead character ended the movie by NOT getting the girl, which in big screen, blockbuster movies was pretty revolutionary at the time.
Lance845 wrote: I have heard 1 good explanation for emo spiderman. The suit taps into what you know and what you feel and enhances it. Mcguire spiderman is a big enough nerd that that is what HE thinks is cool which is why he starts acting like that. It's not that it IS cool. It's that he THINKS its cool. Mcguire Spiderman was always the absolute worst.
This is 100% the intention. I'm always surprised people think otherwise. Peter just embarrasses himself with overconfidence while every background extra is clearly not impressed. I always found it kind of hilarious and far from the biggest issue that film has.
To be fair, every background extra in all 3 original spiderman movies are actively hostile to Peter Parker. Like seriously go back and watch it. Every. Single. Person. The entire world is actively disgusted by his mere presence and both people and objects act with purpose or circumstance to make his life worse.
The only exceptions are that weird girl in his apartment building, Harry (at first), and Mary Jane.
It will most likely not be a 'Spiderverse' situation here - I think we're looking at a lot of cameos, either via Dr. Strange showing him the multiverse or the multiverse occasionally intruding on 'this' MCU world.
Disclaimer: I hated the Toby series of Spidermen, it is up there with the original X-Men run for me on worst Marvel movies ever made.
That being said, I really like this idea and I am actually interested in where it goes. I think this will be the first time ever I am excited to see a Spider-man movie.
I really hope these spiderverse rumors turn out wrong. we need a good spdier-man movie about well, spider-man. this entire run has been brought down by spidy hanging on someone else's coat tales,
I actually find the idea of bringing in the other spideys quite cool. (I watched the first Rami Spider-man a month or two ago and found it stood up quite well). Of course, it should be Holland's movie wit with the others 'in support".
Or it could be the cameo-fest to end all cameos and they're all playing different characters in a short scene.
Next stop... folding Ang Lee's Hulk into the multi-verse.
Seeing both OG doc ock and Green Goblin from the Sam Raimi movies is really good, hope they're more than just cameos. They have no reason to not include dancing Tobey now.
Grimskul wrote: Seeing both OG doc ock and Green Goblin from the Sam Raimi movies is really good, hope they're more than just cameos. They have no reason to not include dancing Tobey now.
sure they do, bringing in villians is a big diff from bringing in other spider-men(spider-mans?)
Grimskul wrote: Seeing both OG doc ock and Green Goblin from the Sam Raimi movies is really good, hope they're more than just cameos. They have no reason to not include dancing Tobey now.
That was great, but Dr Strange mucking up the nature of universe just because Peter asked him to seems a little off character?
Grimskul wrote: Seeing both OG doc ock and Green Goblin from the Sam Raimi movies is really good, hope they're more than just cameos. They have no reason to not include dancing Tobey now.
That was great, but Dr Strange mucking up the nature of universe just because Peter asked him to seems a little off character?
That’s because he’s actually Mephisto. I mean they even have a dude in the trailer holding a devil in disguise sign. The clues are all there.
The Dr Strange who broke his hands racing a car, "spends money as soon as he gets it", barges about a hospital like he owns the place and annoys basically everyone because he's arrogant as hell?
I mean, he's clever, he takes his "Do no harm" vow pretty seriously, and he's definitely on the side of saving the universe. But doing something a bit daft because he wants to and thinks he can get away with it? Yeah, that fits.
Also has the interesting effect that he might not be quite as annoyed with Wanda as people had previously thought...
Graphite wrote: The Dr Strange who broke his hands racing a car, "spends money as soon as he gets it", barges about a hospital like he owns the place and annoys basically everyone because he's arrogant as hell?
I mean, he's clever, he takes his "Do no harm" vow pretty seriously, and he's definitely on the side of saving the universe. But doing something a bit daft because he wants to and thinks he can get away with it? Yeah, that fits.
Also has the interesting effect that he might not be quite as annoyed with Wanda as people had previously thought...
He used to be like that, but that was kind of the point of his whole film, he learned not to be. And certainly in Infinity War/End Game he is much more serious, to the point of being willing to let a lot of people die to avoid risking someone misusing the time stone.
Grimskul wrote: Seeing both OG doc ock and Green Goblin from the Sam Raimi movies is really good, hope they're more than just cameos. They have no reason to not include dancing Tobey now.
That was great, but Dr Strange mucking up the nature of universe just because Peter asked him to seems a little off character?
That’s because he’s actually Mephisto. I mean they even have a dude in the trailer holding a devil in disguise sign. The clues are all there.
I really hope not as I don't think another...it was Mephisto all along is needed, plus sticking essentially the devil (the sorts that'll get fuppy about it dont do nuance) in a big film seems unwise
Graphite wrote: The Dr Strange who broke his hands racing a car, "spends money as soon as he gets it", barges about a hospital like he owns the place and annoys basically everyone because he's arrogant as hell?
I mean, he's clever, he takes his "Do no harm" vow pretty seriously, and he's definitely on the side of saving the universe. But doing something a bit daft because he wants to and thinks he can get away with it? Yeah, that fits.
Also has the interesting effect that he might not be quite as annoyed with Wanda as people had previously thought...
He used to be like that, but that was kind of the point of his whole film, he learned not to be. And certainly in Infinity War/End Game he is much more serious, to the point of being willing to let a lot of people die to avoid risking someone misusing the time stone.
Eh. In Infinity War / Endgame, everyone outside the main characters had to be what the plot demanded rather. The movies were bloody long already without giving everyone loads of Character Development.
And in Doctor Strange he saved the world by breaking the rules, which is why Mordo is annoyed with him. What he learned was that it was better to use his magic to help others rather than himself (since he originally set out looking for a cure for nerve damage). For a guy who's already a surgeon that's not a particularly big leap.
I am all for anything that has Alfred Molina in it.....
It also kinda feels like the spell changes Dr. Strange somehow too? Like he becomes a much bigger jerk in the second half of the trailer than the first half.
Easy E wrote: I am all for anything that has Alfred Molina in it.....
It also kinda feels like the spell changes Dr. Strange somehow too? Like he becomes a much bigger jerk in the second half of the trailer than the first half.
He’s probably part of the everyone in the world who forgets he’s Peter.
Easy E wrote: I am all for anything that has Alfred Molina in it.....
It also kinda feels like the spell changes Dr. Strange somehow too? Like he becomes a much bigger jerk in the second half of the trailer than the first half.
He’s probably part of the everyone in the world who forgets he’s Peter.
That was exactly the same thought I had. Cast the spell, and then all of a sudden, "Who are you!?"
I'm guessing they wanted to hold off on the trailer till after Loki so they could lay multiverse groundwork down.
The whole plotline is silly. Between SHIELD and Stark Industries these charges go by-by in less time that it takes to file them in the first place. The public outcry is fixed by having an empty Spider-Armor grab Peter Parker publicly and leave him dangling off a lamppost or something. Problem solved in the first ten minutes; move on. It's certainly not worth dedicating a whole film to.
Might be him "under the influence" so to speak. Or he's in another part of the multiverse that the imposter previously occupied, or he's knocked out and tied up in the broom cupboard.
Lance845 wrote: To be fair it doesn't look like strange was fething up. It looks like Peter fethed it up for strange by rambling his way through the spell.
Also, this just confirms rumors. A lot of people are going to be in this movie. Including possibly Netflix Daredevil.
It'd be nice to get a Spider-Man movie that wasn't a guest-star fest.
Is it required as part of the Sony-Disney deal, or are they just scared to give Tom Holland his own movie, a la Chris Evans?
Lance845 wrote: To be fair it doesn't look like strange was fething up. It looks like Peter fethed it up for strange by rambling his way through the spell.
Also, this just confirms rumors. A lot of people are going to be in this movie. Including possibly Netflix Daredevil.
It'd be nice to get a Spider-Man movie that wasn't a guest-star fest.
Is it required as part of the Sony-Disney deal, or are they just scared to give Tom Holland his own movie, a la Chris Evans?
Probably more of the former. Both sides have more of a stake in the film if it contains characters they have the rights to. A solo Spiderman movie with Spiderman villains is entirely a Sony movie.
At that point they don't need a deal at all (which makes me wonder what the deal is, that these films have become collaborative).
Hill and Fury were not actually Hill or Fury also.
Dr. Strange and Spidy have done a TON of team ups in the comics. They get along really well on the regular. If this is a slight adaptation of One More Day (in the same way that Iron Man 2 was "kind of" a adaptation of Demon in a Bottle) then Dr Strange makes WAY more sense then Mephisto ::rolls eyes::.
What's important isn't whether the bigger Marvel universe is around and thus in the movie (thats all fine). It's does Holland get stuff done. Spidy took out Vulture without help. Spidy dealt with Mysterio only getting a new REALLY basic suit out of the supporting cast.
I don't think Strange is going to be in the battle against Doc Oct and Green Goblin. Probably will be too busy holding the multiverse together... or apart.
Easy E wrote: Happy (Favreau) plays a pretty big part in Spidey movies and is indeed seen in the trailer for this one.
Absolutely, but a minor character in the MCU played by someone who's more often behind the camera these days and hasn't really ever been a box office A lister doesn't really qualify as someone you'd bring in because you were scared of the main actor carrying the movie by themselves.
I can see the argument that for the Evans Cap films (First Avenger aside maybe) he had some heavyweights holding his hand, but I think this is more a symptom of Holland being in some of the big Disney MCU films, rather than his own films where he's by and large flown solo. Plus given how the MCU developed Tony and Peter's relationship, it might have felt odd if Iron Man didn't crop up in the Sony films.
Okay, so let me define "guest-star fest" this way -- No Way Home in terms of apparent quantity of guest appearance and easter eggs, and Homecoming and Far From Home in more qualitative terms...i.e. putting Spider-Man in Iron Man's shadow. RDJ was barely in Far From Home, but the movie was a lot about Tony Stark and Peter's relationship with him. Who needs Uncle Ben as an inspiration, anyway? That guy never made one wisecrack!
I can anticipate most of the arguments that are about to come my way. But the fact is I'm much more of a fan of Marvel comics than the MCU and I don't like how the MCU was more or less the IMCU. I'll be the first to admit that RDJ put the whole franchise on his back in the early going. But I feel that they continued to make it too much about Tony Stark, and that other characters suffered as a result.
I know that shoehorning RDJ into films to boost the BO is really just classic Hollywood filmmaking. And yet because they leaned on him SO much, I think the next phase will be very interesting for Marvel. I think the returns will probably be fine, but I'm not 100% certain they'll be able to stay away from the BO crack named RDJ.
In fact, setting Happy up as Tony's go between may have been a conscious attempt to keep RDJ down to a minimum to avoid stealing focus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote: Okay, so let me define "guest-star fest" this way -- No Way Home in terms of apparent quantity of guest appearance and easter eggs, and Homecoming and Far From Home in more qualitative terms...i.e. putting Spider-Man in Iron Man's shadow. RDJ was barely in Far From Home, but the movie was a lot about Tony Stark and Peter's relationship with him. Who needs Uncle Ben as an inspiration, anyway? That guy never made one wisecrack!
I can anticipate most of the arguments that are about to come my way. But the fact is I'm much more of a fan of Marvel comics than the MCU and I don't like how the MCU was more or less the IMCU. I'll be the first to admit that RDJ put the whole franchise on his back in the early going. But I feel that they continued to make it too much about Tony Stark, and that other characters suffered as a result.
I know that shoehorning RDJ into films to boost the BO is really just classic Hollywood filmmaking. And yet because they leaned on him SO much, I think the next phase will be very interesting for Marvel. I think the returns will probably be fine, but I'm not 100% certain they'll be able to stay away from the BO crack named RDJ.
That's a weird definition of guest star anything. What it seems like you don't like are some of the narrative and world building choices, which of course is fine, but not really what you said initially.
Well, here is my take on this next big story of the MCU.
We got this big multiverse phase. Were gunna get Kangs all over the place. We have multiverse of Madness. We have these multiple Spidermans.
But this is just phase 4.
The next Thanos is going to be the Beyonder building Battleworld. But not the original Secret Wars Battleworld, the Doom version made of fragments of the multiverse. And the final boss of this whole fiasco is going to be God Emperor Doom.
So sit back guys. All these Mutiverse seeds and movies. It's all preamble to smash them all together for a massive fight with mutants, fantastic four, Sokovia Acords Avengers, young Avengers, Moonknights and She Hulks etc etc... Which is pobably a great opportunity to recast Steve Rogers and Tony Stark and drop new versions of them into the core universe in the aftermath of the great multiversal battle that is to come.
I honestly don't see Tony being recast for a long, long time. In-universe rationalisations aside, which would be easy to come by, what actor is going to try and follow RDJ in the role until he's long forgotten?
Turnip Jedi wrote: If I was a betting man (yep still sore about the footy...) I'd wager RDJ may well be voicing Ironhearts suit
While I super loved AI Tony in the comics, they haven’t really set it up here and it’ll probably be her later/current AI of her dead friend, which is unfortunately way less entertaining, but that’s probably because the writer changed.
Azreal13 wrote: In fact, setting Happy up as Tony's go between may have been a conscious attempt to keep RDJ down to a minimum to avoid stealing focus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote: Okay, so let me define "guest-star fest" this way -- No Way Home in terms of apparent quantity of guest appearance and easter eggs, and Homecoming and Far From Home in more qualitative terms...i.e. putting Spider-Man in Iron Man's shadow. RDJ was barely in Far From Home, but the movie was a lot about Tony Stark and Peter's relationship with him. Who needs Uncle Ben as an inspiration, anyway? That guy never made one wisecrack!
I can anticipate most of the arguments that are about to come my way. But the fact is I'm much more of a fan of Marvel comics than the MCU and I don't like how the MCU was more or less the IMCU. I'll be the first to admit that RDJ put the whole franchise on his back in the early going. But I feel that they continued to make it too much about Tony Stark, and that other characters suffered as a result.
I know that shoehorning RDJ into films to boost the BO is really just classic Hollywood filmmaking. And yet because they leaned on him SO much, I think the next phase will be very interesting for Marvel. I think the returns will probably be fine, but I'm not 100% certain they'll be able to stay away from the BO crack named RDJ.
That's a weird definition of guest star anything. What it seems like you don't like are some of the narrative and world building choices, which of course is fine, but not really what you said initially.
Eh. I think it all goes to the films not being as centered on Tom Holland and classic Spidey mythology as they could be.
Yes...Spider-Man has guest-starred plenty of times in the comics. Yes, that's because he's their #1 attraction by far and boosts sales of any comic he appears in. And yes, what the MCU is doing is using that same scheme -- just inverted -- to prop up the Spidey movies because Spidey brought up the rear somewhat in the MCU.
I'm really not even the biggest Spidey fan...but that still feels very backwards to me. It's Spider-Man. It's Marvel's best character, with the most classic storylines and easily the best rogues gallery. If they want to do the Sinister Six, great! But write it and cast it around *this* Spider-Man and what works best for him instead of making it a big 'memberberry pie with some Into the Spider-Verse frosting. Maybe they feel they don't have the time to do the SS in a more organic way because of rights and such. Maybe we're back to that whole tangled mess.
I dunno. This film feels very studio-concepted and -assembled rather than being about a good story idea. Marvel is definitely VERY studio-driven over being director-driven, but they can do a really good job of telling a strong core story when they want to. This doesn't feel like that at all, but I haven't seen the film and could be completely wrong.
I don't think it's going to be for a long time either. Remember. Infinity War was over 10 years of cinema. Recasting Tony and Steve is another 10 years down the line.
Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.
Azreal13 wrote: In fact, setting Happy up as Tony's go between may have been a conscious attempt to keep RDJ down to a minimum to avoid stealing focus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote: Okay, so let me define "guest-star fest" this way -- No Way Home in terms of apparent quantity of guest appearance and easter eggs, and Homecoming and Far From Home in more qualitative terms...i.e. putting Spider-Man in Iron Man's shadow. RDJ was barely in Far From Home, but the movie was a lot about Tony Stark and Peter's relationship with him. Who needs Uncle Ben as an inspiration, anyway? That guy never made one wisecrack!
I can anticipate most of the arguments that are about to come my way. But the fact is I'm much more of a fan of Marvel comics than the MCU and I don't like how the MCU was more or less the IMCU. I'll be the first to admit that RDJ put the whole franchise on his back in the early going. But I feel that they continued to make it too much about Tony Stark, and that other characters suffered as a result.
I know that shoehorning RDJ into films to boost the BO is really just classic Hollywood filmmaking. And yet because they leaned on him SO much, I think the next phase will be very interesting for Marvel. I think the returns will probably be fine, but I'm not 100% certain they'll be able to stay away from the BO crack named RDJ.
That's a weird definition of guest star anything. What it seems like you don't like are some of the narrative and world building choices, which of course is fine, but not really what you said initially.
Eh. I think it all goes to the films not being as centered on Tom Holland and classic Spidey mythology as they could be.
Yes...Spider-Man has guest-starred plenty of times in the comics. Yes, that's because he's their #1 attraction by far and boosts sales of any comic he appears in. And yes, what the MCU is doing is using that same scheme -- just inverted -- to prop up the Spidey movies because Spidey brought up the rear somewhat in the MCU.
I'm really not even the biggest Spidey fan...but that still feels very backwards to me. It's Spider-Man. It's Marvel's best character, with the most classic storylines and easily the best rogues gallery. If they want to do the Sinister Six, great! But write it and cast it around *this* Spider-Man and what works best for him instead of making it a big 'memberberry pie with some Into the Spider-Verse frosting. Maybe they feel they don't have the time to do the SS in a more organic way because of rights and such. Maybe we're back to that whole tangled mess.
I dunno. This film feels very studio-concepted and -assembled rather than being about a good story idea. Marvel is definitely VERY studio-driven over being director-driven, but they can do a really good job of telling a strong core story when they want to. This doesn't feel like that at all, but I haven't seen the film and could be completely wrong.
/rant
Yeah I've beenr eading the old ASM comics, (currently on issue 146) and it's intreasting how many characters have appered in spidy first as ESSENTIALLY an advertisement for their comic.
Frazzled wrote: Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.
Agreed. There was a period a few years ago where the comics were pushing events left and right like they had no tomorrow. If memory serves, it got so bloated that some events pushed others under the radar.
I’m going to be optimistic and assume that there will be a reasonable enough amoutnof time before the next massive buildup event, but subsequent attempts (assuming they continue after that) might get a bit hasty.
Frazzled wrote: Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.
Agreed. There was a period a few years ago where the comics were pushing events left and right like they had no tomorrow. If memory serves, it got so bloated that some events pushed others under the radar.
I’m going to be optimistic and assume that there will be a reasonable enough amoutnof time before the next massive buildup event, but subsequent attempts (assuming they continue after that) might get a bit hasty.
Cursory Google, so please forgive any inaccuracies. It seems Secret War is going to be the next big crossover they’ve going for.
Certainly nothing on the slate obviously related to smashing in Kang’s teeth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, with the raft of existing characters, and new ones coming very very soon, they likely won’t need the 10 year run up?
Frazzled wrote: Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.
Agreed. There was a period a few years ago where the comics were pushing events left and right like they had no tomorrow. If memory serves, it got so bloated that some events pushed others under the radar.
I’m going to be optimistic and assume that there will be a reasonable enough amoutnof time before the next massive buildup event, but subsequent attempts (assuming they continue after that) might get a bit hasty.
Cursory Google, so please forgive any inaccuracies. It seems Secret War is going to be the next big crossover they’ve going for.
Certainly nothing on the slate obviously related to smashing in Kang’s teeth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, with the raft of existing characters, and new ones coming very very soon, they likely won’t need the 10 year run up?
I remember Secret War. I also remember the other Secret War and the other Secret War. It’s very likely not the second one if we’re getting into multiverse shenanigans. For the third one, we will need Doom or at least some kind of Doom equivalent.
AduroT wrote: A few years ago? They’re Still doing near constant events.
Bugger, I thought we were past that after Secret Empire. What kinds of events are they up to these days?
Marvel just finished King in Black, a Venom thing that covered the world in symbiotes. I think they’re working up to another Infinity War/Stones thing again, but I don’t tend to follow news about upcoming stuff. DC finished Metal, then did Future State, and they’ve got a Fear State thing coming soon, but that might just involve the Batman titles (but those are practically half of what DC does now).
I think it's going to be a combo 1 and 3 secret wars. Beyond kicks it off, Doom steals his power (as he did and Doom is want to do) and then we get God Emperor Doom for Secret Wars part 2.
Ahtman wrote: One More Day was such a well loved and popular story line I'm glad to see them adapt it to the MCU.
Civil War wasn't that well-received in the comics, but turned into one of the best movies.
I thought the basic premise was silly. "Look at all the destruction in New York, let's blame the Avengers and punish them for saving the world from alien invasion!' That sort of attitude would make me hang up my cape and join Rorschach. Indeed, something similar is a leading reason why I quit a long-running superhero RPG.
Ahtman wrote: One More Day was such a well loved and popular story line I'm glad to see them adapt it to the MCU.
Civil War wasn't that well-received in the comics, but turned into one of the best movies.
I thought the basic premise was silly. "Look at all the destruction in New York, let's blame the Avengers and punish them for saving the world from alien invasion!' That sort of attitude would make me hang up my cape and join Rorschach. Indeed, something similar is a leading reason why I quit a long-running superhero RPG.
Except it wasn't "Blame the avengers for New York" it was "Blame the Avengers for Ultron, the sentient AI that one of the avengers literally created."
Also the Hulk smashing up Harlem because he had a grudge match with Abomination. Though you might note that General Ross left that one off his list since he basically instigated it.
Lance845 wrote: Also the Hulk smashing up Harlem because he had a grudge match with Abomination. Though you might note that General Ross left that one off his list since he basically instigated it.
Well that and it was pre-official MCU. Come to think of it I’m a little surprised how strongly they referenced the Hulk movie in What If, I thought there was a rights issue with those movies? Or was it ambiguous enough to pass muster?
That was not pre MCU. It was made by marvel studios. It in the phase 1 box set and the infinity saga box set.
The rights dispute is for the distribution of a solo hulk film. MGM or Paramount (doesnt really matter) have the distribution rights. Not the character rights. It was pre Disney purchasing Marvel but not before Marvel Studios was doing it's thing.
And even after all of that, it was left up for discussion if superhero registration and oversight was appropriate, with plausible arguments from both sides that made sense for the characters advocating them.
The comic version of the event took a valid argument, and then botched it something hardcore, with the pro-registration side using extradimensional prisons, sending armed guards round to forcibly take in someone who had said they were retiring from heroics, Spiderman being hunted down by mercenary villains when he defected, teenage heroes being threatened at gunpoint, and Captain America getting tackled by the Heroes of 9/11, then being declared obsolete because he didn't know what Myspace was. Mark Millar, everyone!
Elemental wrote: And even after all of that, it was left up for discussion if superhero registration and oversight was appropriate, with plausible arguments from both sides that made sense for the characters advocating them.
The comic version of the event took a valid argument, and then botched it something hardcore, with the pro-registration side using extradimensional prisons, sending armed guards round to forcibly take in someone who had said they were retiring from heroics, Spiderman being hunted down by mercenary villains when he defected, teenage heroes being threatened at gunpoint, and Captain America getting tackled by the Heroes of 9/11, then being declared obsolete because he didn't know what Myspace was. Mark Millar, everyone!
yeah I rememebr that, when some writer said "I don't think cap is relevant anymore because he proably doesn't know what myspace is"
I remember Secret War. I also remember the other Secret War and the other Secret War. It’s very likely not the second one if we’re getting into multiverse shenanigans. For the third one, we will need Doom or at least some kind of Doom equivalent.
Honestly, introducing Doom IN Secret Wars is probably the best way we could hope to get a good version of Doom in the comics. Do the whole Rabum Alal thing. Shady cult leader destroying the multiverse with a mix of advanced science and magic. Sets up a nice, "but you may call me Doom" moment so his name seems less silly.
We ARE getting a Fantastic Four movie soon, but the main problem with trying to use Doom in the first Fantastic Four film is that family is so focused on science that you end up trying to "ground" Doom in the same world. That's why he ends up being a businessman who shares in the accident and gets powers from it with the team. His origins need to come from outside the origins of the team. That said, having him cameo in Fantastic Four could work depending on how they plan to interpret that team for the MCU. Personally I'm hoping for a "lost in space/time from the 60's" storyline that will let them be "old" in this universe.
AduroT wrote: From just this past week’s United States of Captain America.
Spoiler:
Speaking as a Cap fan, that snippet works decently because it's an attitudinal thing for Cap. He has a phone, knows how to use it, but just prefers paper. Hell, so do I sometimes and I'm not from the 1940s...paper is still a useful tool.
Where Cap takes go wrong is when they show him having difficulties with the daily details of the modern world around him. Which doesn't make sense to me...he's been thawed out for years, working with a super-advanced spy agency at times, and constantly surrounded by all kinds of crazy comic book tech. He'd adapt...and in fact did in the comics for most of his history since Avengers #4.
What Captain America symbolizes is a living, constantly evolving America that remembers the best values of its past. Values are where he has difficulties at times with the modern world. He has crises of faith regarding America in the comics, often reflecting things going on in the real world. But he learns how to work through them and redefine himself. He's a serial monogamist also, and his lady friends have been all kinds -- a lawyer, a reformed villain, etc. -- that reflect where he was in his life at that point in time. He evolves as a person.
And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.
And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.
Part of that was there was simply no time to do anything with the characters in the later movies. It was full-tilt CGI spectacle and make sure each of the 40-odd cast members runs in front of the camera from time to time.
There isn't any room (or even any point) in doing complex character moments in those sorts of films.
Solo (or small cast) films like Winter Soldier are always going to be better for those sorts of moments. It isn't even a quality problem, its just CGI action spectacles don't concern themselves with that level of detail.
I disagree. The team dynamic kind of centred on Cap and Tony’s outlooks.
Tony was the ideas man, the futurist. He saw what could be done.
Cap was the ethics man. He saw what should be done, morally and ethically.
That’s what drove the team, providing both motivation and internal tension. Both remain in those guiding roles, but we see both open up more to the other philosophy.
This is particularly shown in Civil War. The formerly feckless and reckless Tony recognises his history coming back to haunt him. The weapons and technology he created being used without accountability. But for Cap, he’s a man personally familiar with “I was just following orders”. Given his history with Hydra, he fears the team being deployed by an unscrupulous government.
I definitely don't agree with that. Cap threw morality and ethics out the window in civil war (and honestly in Winter Soldier and a little bit in First Avenger), all he cared about was doing anything at all to save his buddy, who had absolute immunity to any consequence because he was Cap's buddy.
The tension of the film was that they were opposed because they couldn't agree, but the moral debate they were theoretically having was a muddled mess because what they were doing was completely add odds with what the script had them recite in the pre-spectacle fight build up.
Tony... I don't even know what he was supposed to be doing in this film. Any futurism or ideas were gone, he was just suddenly an angry lapdog and yes man and recruiting children to fight because... Uh, Sony said it was fine?
You need to remember that they had kill on site orders for a man who was innocent. They never intended to put him on trial. Caps stance for why he should bring in Bucky was both to protect others and to protect Bucky who was actually innocent of every crime people wanted to lay at his feet. He WAS brainwashed. He didn't bomb the UN.
Caps stance was all morality and ethics. "We don't trade lives." He won't stand idly by and let one person be executed because it's easier for everyone else.
Voss wrote: I definitely don't agree with that. Cap threw morality and ethics out the window in civil war (and honestly in Winter Soldier and a little bit in First Avenger), all he cared about was doing anything at all to save his buddy, who had absolute immunity to any consequence because he was Cap's buddy.
The tension of the film was that they were opposed because they couldn't agree, but the moral debate they were theoretically having was a muddled mess because what they were doing was completely add odds with what the script had them recite in the pre-spectacle fight build up.
Tony... I don't even know what he was supposed to be doing in this film. Any futurism or ideas were gone, he was just suddenly an angry lapdog and yes man and recruiting children to fight because... Uh, Sony said it was fine?
As I've said before, I feel that Civil War suffered from many of the same issues as BvS. The central conflict just didn't work very well, and parts of the plot come apart when you start pulling on threads. Main differences were people were more invested in the characters, and the movie was brighter lit. And I 100% agree that was not a recognizable MCU Tony Stark.
Edit: Back on topic, I watched part of one of the Garfield Spidey films the other day, and it reminded me how good he was in the suit. Those films had Spidey's banter and personality DOWN...it felt right from the comics. Garfield's version was the best IMO, even if the other two actors got to be in better films.
I thought Civil was an odd duck - good but not as good as many others. Its a million times better than Bats vs Sups however.
Cap threw morality and ethics out the window in civil war (and honestly in Winter Soldier and a little bit in First Avenger), all he cared about was doing anything at all to save his buddy, who had absolute immunity to any consequence because he was Cap's buddy.
This I sort of agreed with - especially since Tony's parents were brutally murdered by him so it made his motivations more understandable - my friends disagreed, focussing on the brainwashing.
Tony wants to make the world a better place but his methods are not always the...best.
I have never liked Spiderman or Peter Parker but found the MCU version the least ojectionable so far.
And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.
I think that's a little reductive of where we leave off on the character. Steve's decision isn't really about retreating the modern world for simpler times or anything like that. It's not like we see him scared to the past by TikTok or something. The past is just where Peggy is and he takes his chance to be with her in his future. I suspect had it not worked out, he'd have just moved forward in the present. In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on, which is a lesson Steve takes to heart. He entrusts the future to his friends and finds happiness for himself, which in many ways shows more of a willingness to move on than anything that would retain the status quo.
In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on
He was happily married with a kid before the the team came looking for help - he had moved on and definately had the best life of all those who survived the snap.
Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.
LunarSol wrote: Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.
Mordin? Is that a play on my username?
Its a bit more like "We can save half the universe (including some of the people you cared deeply about) - you are the only person who can help...." Given his ego and need to be a saviour, hard to refuse but its a pretty big thing to say no to.
If they had not come to him... he would not have gone looking for a solution as he already had his happy ending.
I guess its part of the swan song for the older MCU cast but its notable how little Strange does in either film especially given how powerful his portals are as weapons (shown in same film)
Scientist in Mass Effect that dies personally overseeing that a cure is distributed correctly. Those were his last words.
I'm not saying Tony's choice was wrong, nor was it wrong of him to make the sacrifice play, I'm just saying that Steve's choice isn't really wrong either.
Well, it’s also Tony making the sacrifice play. Being faced with lying on the barbed wire, because you’ve no way to cut it.
That’s part of his own arc, learning ever greater responsibility. That not every situation has a convenient technological solution.
Add in that he not only knew the impact of doing the snap (covered earlier in the film, twice), but also being one of at least two (possibly no more than two) that this was the one in 14,000,000 where we and not he personally win.
Imperfect as it might be, there is a beautiful poetry to the MCU.
Cap in particular finally gets the chance to demob. To very literally, chronologically speaking, return home and rediscover/reclaim his civilian life. Something his army chums from the 40’s got to do decades ago, but he never did.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, it’s also Tony making the sacrifice play. Being faced with lying on the barbed wire, because you’ve no way to cut it.
That’s part of his own arc, learning ever greater responsibility. That not every situation has a convenient technological solution.
Add in that he not only knew the impact of doing the snap (covered earlier in the film, twice), but also being one of at least two (possibly no more than two) that this was the one in 14,000,000 where we and not he personally win.
Imperfect as it might be, there is a beautiful poetry to the MCU.
Cap in particular finally gets the chance to demob. To very literally, chronologically speaking, return home and rediscover/reclaim his civilian life. Something his army chums from the 40’s got to do decades ago, but he never did.
Hmm but Tony already made the sacrifce play in Avengers. However it only made him try harder to find solutions and face up to his responsabilites to Pepper and later his child.
We only have Stranges word for the 1 chance - and it made no sense (for me)
* Chop off Thanos gauntlet hand with a portal and you win
* Chop off his head with the same and you win.....thats 2 right there.
Now maybe there is a another reason that Stark needs to die....good or bad.
Well, Dr Strange saw 14,000,000 possible outcomes.
How do you define a win there? Is it just stopping Thanos with your suggest portalling off the Gauntlet? But how does that stop anyone else gathering the stones and doing it again, given they’re now most definitely not a legend?
Look at how End Game actually, erm, ends. Thanos defeated. Snap largely undone. Stones then destroyed in the present and future, but returned where they needed to be for your past leading to those events to happen uninterrupted.
No stones left for anyone else to do potentially worse (me? I’d just give everyone but me Bumeyes, where your eyes become bums so you fart when you see). Out of harm and temptation’s way.
That’s the biggest possible win. From a certain point of view.
And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.
I think that's a little reductive of where we leave off on the character. Steve's decision isn't really about retreating the modern world for simpler times or anything like that. It's not like we see him scared to the past by TikTok or something. The past is just where Peggy is and he takes his chance to be with her in his future. I suspect had it not worked out, he'd have just moved forward in the present. In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on, which is a lesson Steve takes to heart. He entrusts the future to his friends and finds happiness for himself, which in many ways shows more of a willingness to move on than anything that would retain the status quo.
I think it might be more reductive to say it was just about Peggy. His decision is personified in Peggy, but it's really more than that. He chooses the known quantity of the past over the present and all its possibilities. In the comics he finds a greater love in Sharon. But to me, the notion is there in his sendoff that he's happier -- and better off, really -- existing decades ago, where he can listen to his big band music and enjoy the sepia filter. As if he can't thrive in today's world, and as if today doesn't deserve him.
I get the real world moviemaking factors in play. I get that these movies are very intentionally not being made for people like me...they just throw in a lot of references and easter eggs to try to make me feel like it. But I think it was a bad read on what Captain America is really about, and probably a very lazy take on 'good then' versus 'bad now' to boot.
How do you define a win there? Is it just stopping Thanos with your suggest portalling off the Gauntlet? But how does that stop anyone else gathering the stones and doing it again, given they’re now most definitely not a legend?
No thats what he told us he saw - no other confirmation so to me suspect.
Thanos is dead - no Snap. Better than "Snap largely undone" As Thanos said himself "Should have gone for the head" but then to be fair we would nt have had another awesome movie.
Look at how End Game actually, erm, ends. Thanos defeated. Snap largely undone. Stones then destroyed in the present and future, but returned where they needed to be for your past leading to those events to happen uninterrupted.
No stones left for anyone else to do potentially worse (me? I’d just give everyone but me Bumeyes, where your eyes become bums so you fart when you see). Out of harm and temptation’s way.
That’s the biggest possible win. From a certain point of view.
Are the stones truely gone in the present? Also you can just do what they did and go to another universe to get them? I can see what you mean if they are truly gone.
If not whats the difference except the universe did not end for half the people for several years, and Vision and Natasha (amongst others) would be alive.
I still maintain it was Steve Roger’s best, possibly only chance to demob, and happily so.
He’s more than served his country. He’s served world and all of reality. He has the opportunity to duck out without actually letting anyone down - anyone at all, because his going back to Peggy doesn’t preclude his past happening.
He’s simultaneously enjoying the post-military life, in his own time, and still frozen beneath the ice. Peggy being a member of military intelligence should be clued up enough to maintain the secret and preserve the necessary timeline. A positive twist on don’t ask, don’t tell. Just have a pic of weedy Steve on your desk, go back to hunky Steve at night - with both reminding her why she loves him. It is after all very telling that the pic she keeps of Steve is weedy Steve, not hunk Steve.
How do you define a win there? Is it just stopping Thanos with your suggest portalling off the Gauntlet? But how does that stop anyone else gathering the stones and doing it again, given they’re now most definitely not a legend?
Look at how End Game actually, erm, ends. Thanos defeated. Snap largely undone. Stones then destroyed in the present and future, but returned where they needed to be for your past leading to those events to happen uninterrupted.
No stones left for anyone else to do potentially worse (me? I’d just give everyone but me Bumeyes, where your eyes become bums so you fart when you see). Out of harm and temptation’s way.
That’s the biggest possible win. From a certain point of view.
I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.
And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.
I think that's a little reductive of where we leave off on the character. Steve's decision isn't really about retreating the modern world for simpler times or anything like that. It's not like we see him scared to the past by TikTok or something. The past is just where Peggy is and he takes his chance to be with her in his future. I suspect had it not worked out, he'd have just moved forward in the present. In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on, which is a lesson Steve takes to heart. He entrusts the future to his friends and finds happiness for himself, which in many ways shows more of a willingness to move on than anything that would retain the status quo.
I think it might be more reductive to say it was just about Peggy. His decision is personified in Peggy, but it's really more than that. He chooses the known quantity of the past over the present and all its possibilities. In the comics he finds a greater love in Sharon. But to me, the notion is there in his sendoff that he's happier -- and better off, really -- existing decades ago, where he can listen to his big band music and enjoy the sepia filter. As if he can't thrive in today's world, and as if today doesn't deserve him.
I get the real world moviemaking factors in play. I get that these movies are very intentionally not being made for people like me...they just throw in a lot of references and easter eggs to try to make me feel like it. But I think it was a bad read on what Captain America is really about, and probably a very lazy take on 'good then' versus 'bad now' to boot.
Meanwhile, Sharon Carter's a villain.
I guess I just don't read it that way. I don't get the impression he would have stayed for anyone but Peggy. She's reinforced as his only real motivating factor throughout the film and the only thing he shows a real affinity for even when they return to the base.
Oh agree with the Steve outcome - that all seemed good to me in the film.
I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.
We know that using the portal to chop off his head however ends that fight then and there and given that Mantis has him unconsious......
LunarSol wrote: Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.
I read/watched a thing recently that points out that Tony Stark basically already considers himself dead from the moment he gets out of the cave.
All of his time from the death of Yinsen forward is about trying to live up to Yinsen's words. And in doing so diving forward on what he consciously or subconsciously considers borrowed time.
It's not that he's actively suicidal. But he's reckless and VERY willing to make the sacrifice play even if there might be another option because he "shouldn't be here. I should have died in that cave."
It doesn't take him even a moment to decide to fly the nuke through the portal. Or crash and burn his entire life while giving away all his stuff. Or tell a terrorist organization to come to his house and try to kill him. Or sit under Ultron's floating death city expecting to die. etc etc...
Tony Stark is SUPER willing to die in any given moment if it's needed to fix the problem right in front of him. And that doesn't mean he doesn't try to live. Just that his willingness to die is always right there beside him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: Oh agree with the Steve outcome - that all seemed good to me in the film.
I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.
We know that using the portal to chop off his head however ends that fight then and there and given that Mantis has him unconsious......
That still leaves the gauntlet with like... Tony or something. Where something way worse could happen as a result. Dr. Strange is looking for a scenario where they win by his standards (the universe is safe and things move forward correctly). The infinity gauntlet left in the hands of pretty much anyone isn't a win.
YES. Strange could have chopped off whatever. That doesn't make it a win. It's why during that entire fight Dr Strange stays quiet and says nothing. He just does his part.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh agree with the Steve outcome - that all seemed good to me in the film.
I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.
We know that using the portal to chop off his head however ends that fight then and there and given that Mantis has him unconsious......
Still doesn’t deal with the Stones, or the temptation they represent.
That cat was out of the bag at the end of Infinity War. And it’s their sheer potential that’s the true villain. Thanos was kinda bonkers, that much is true. But given we’ve seen the one in 14,000,0000 win play out? It’s about what that win represents.
Let’s say Dr Strange uses the time stone to keep resetting that scene. Initially, just to provide clear, concise advice to his allies. They stop Thanos there and in any of a wide variety of possible methods. Great. You’ve stopped Thanos.
Except……Thanos was never, ever the problem. The problem is the ability to unilaterally reorder Reality. Exactly who would you trust with that? Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The reality Dr Strange ultimately ushered in is, when you think about it, the most amoral reality. Enough for all of reality to appreciate just how much power an individual can wield - whilst removing that potential from the grasp of the majority.
One could question “but how did Dr Strange know that an Avenger wouldn’t use the time travel tech to go and ruin it?” Simple answer? He did. And whatever he did, he did with the foreknowledge that his actions would avoid that.
He knew that allowing Thanos to initially win, then destroy the Stones was the best (though not only necessary) path to the best possible victory. Not just undoing and defeating Thanos, but denying as many people as possible the shot at replicating Thanos’ ultimately fleeting success.
LunarSol wrote: Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.
Mordin? Is that a play on my username?
Have you really never played mass effect?!
Nope - I have it somewhere but never got round to it!
That still leaves the gauntlet with like... Tony or something. Where something way worse could happen as a result. Dr. Strange is looking for a scenario where they win by his standards (the universe is safe and things move forward correctly). The infinity gauntlet left in the hands of pretty much anyone isn't a win.
YES. Strange could have chopped off whatever. That doesn't make it a win. It's why during that entire fight Dr Strange stays quiet and says nothing. He just does his part.
Maybe..... maybe.....guess its bigger picture - although Strange would control where the Gauntlett went......and it implies only a few people can use it and no die in the process?
LunarSol wrote: Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.
Mordin? Is that a play on my username?
Have you really never played mass effect?!
Nope - I have it somewhere but never got round to it!
That still leaves the gauntlet with like... Tony or something. Where something way worse could happen as a result. Dr. Strange is looking for a scenario where they win by his standards (the universe is safe and things move forward correctly). The infinity gauntlet left in the hands of pretty much anyone isn't a win.
YES. Strange could have chopped off whatever. That doesn't make it a win. It's why during that entire fight Dr Strange stays quiet and says nothing. He just does his part.
Maybe..... maybe.....guess its bigger picture - although Strange would control where the Gauntlett went......and it implies only a few people can use it and no die in the process?
It's less about dying in the process. What damage can be done? What if another Kycellious get's his hands on the Gauntlet. A Zealot who is happy to die to dump all of reality into the Dark Dimension and handed on a platter to Dormamu.
Okay, so to address the portal thing, have we ever actually seen Strange open one up where something is? Black Dwarf loses a hand because he sticks it in the portal to get Peter, but it still requires him sticking his hand in the garbage disposal. The portals also appear stationary once summoned, so you can't open one then move it over someone before closing it and in a fight they generally seem a little imprecise in general. He gets very good with them, but they don't open and close so quickly that using them offensively seems very practical.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I still maintain it was Steve Roger’s best, possibly only chance to demob, and happily so.
There's some cool discussions out there about why there are different words for soldier and warrior and what that really means. I think we have a tendency to lump our heroes in the latter category, but in doing so, we tend to strip away who they are as a person and make their defining characteristics more about how they fight, why they fight, how good of a fighter they are, and who they would win in a fight against. There purpose becomes war, which is why heroes that survive tend to live long enough to become the villain. At some point you're just fighting because that's all you do, and sooner or later the only stories left to tell about fighting are the ones where you're on the wrong side.
LunarSol wrote: Okay, so to address the portal thing, have we ever actually seen Strange open one up where something is? Black Dwarf loses a hand because he sticks it in the portal to get Peter, but it still requires him sticking his hand in the garbage disposal. The portals also appear stationary once summoned, so you can't open one then move it over someone before closing it and in a fight they generally seem a little imprecise in general. He gets very good with them, but they don't open and close so quickly that using them offensively seems very practical.
One of the first portals we see (I think it's actually the second) is when the Ancient One opens a portal out of the mirror dimension ally way where she fought Kycellious and his crew on the side of a building. She summons it and then sweeps her hands back moving the portal towards her as she steps through and dissipates it farther back behind her. Then Dr Strange does the same thing to Loki and Thor when Loki goes to attack him after opening the portal to Norway. He just moves it on towards them and shuts the door after they leave. Finally, Wong opens a portal for Bruce Banner that doesn't just dump him in the park it takes a piece of the car with it. Showing that a portal can be either opened into/onto objects or be moved through them making them into some kind of portal knife/loop.
The Shang-Chi teaser has a wizard use a portal to make the Abomination hit himself in the face.
Pretty fun.
Is Wong leaving the Sanctum* in the trailer do we think he is going to appear in the Shang-Chi film?
*= Do not read this asterisk for your own sanity!
Spoiler:
The Sanctum Santorum makes me think of Rick Santorum, which makes me think of a certain slang, which makes me horrified that Dr. Strange lives there, but it does explain why it is now all white.
Easy E wrote: The Shang-Chi teaser has a wizard use a portal to make the Abomination hit himself in the face.
Pretty fun.
Is Wong leaving the Sanctum* in the trailer do we think he is going to appear in the Shang-Chi film?
*= Do not read this asterisk for your own sanity!
Spoiler:
The Sanctum Santorum makes me think of Rick Santorum, which makes me think of a certain slang, which makes me horrified that Dr. Strange lives there, but it does explain why it is now all white.
Sanity broken.
Pretty sure Wong’s the wizard fighting Abomination.
Let me reiterate, I am sure Wong is in Shang-chi. I am less sure if Shang-chi and No Way Home are taking place at about the same time in the MCU timeline.
After social media being so convinced that Tobey and Andrew are in this movie, it's going to be hilarious if it turns out that their 'parts' are nothing more than stock footage flashed up as part of a 'Yup, Spidey exists in multiple universes!' montage...
Oh. I'd forgotten what the premise of this movie was.
Well, Peter, your replacement mentor figure is even more of donkey, but good news, you're setting up his sequel!
I'm sure Sony is fine with that. Right?
I would assume it was part of the overall deal that saw SonySpiderMan included in the MCU after the first one.
Sure. But from this trailer specifically, it looks like a setup movie for DS2: Multiverse of Madness. Sure, Spidey will punch his... alternate universe rogue's gallery in the face and chase MJ around, but the meat of the plot is about the people/things coming through the walls of reality. The fact that they're the villains from the other Spidey films actually removes a lot of the tension. Peter Parker usually has some form of relationship with his main villains. Several of them aren't just randos, they're people who he interacted with as Peter, knew them and dated their daughters, who mentored or challenged him or whatever. _All_ of that is stripped out of this film. THIS Peter is basically getting hit with a group of goofy monsters of the week all at once, and these are the _signature_ spider man villains, reduced to some lame jokes and face punching. There's no connection or tie anywhere at all, not even really with Strange, who's annoyed at the situation (and Peter himself), but they don't have any real bond either. There's just dudes to punch, and (more) set up for the Multiverse.
Which goes back to Sony- sure, they get a bag of cash for this, but Disney also gets a bag of cash, and also sets up their NEXT bag of cash (or the next arc of cash bags). Sony wins, but Disney gets to win twice. For competitors in the same field, that isn't really a great business deal.
That seems like a lot of assumptions to make based on a 3 minute sizzle reel, honestly.
I would assume that this will also serve to set up the next Spiderman movie, whether that's as a part of the MCU or Sony forging off on their own, but they're not really going to show us the hook for the next movie in the trailer for this one.
I would assume it was part of the overall deal that saw SonySpiderMan included in the MCU after the first one.
Sure. But from this trailer specifically, it looks like a setup movie for DS2: Multiverse of Madness. Sure, Spidey will punch his... alternate universe rogue's gallery in the face and chase MJ around, but the meat of the plot is about the people/things coming through the walls of reality. The fact that they're the villains from the other Spidey films actually removes a lot of the tension. Peter Parker usually has some form of relationship with his main villains. Several of them aren't just randos, they're people who he interacted with as Peter, knew them and dated their daughters, who mentored or challenged him or whatever. _All_ of that is stripped out of this film. THIS Peter is basically getting hit with a group of goofy monsters of the week all at once, and these are the _signature_ spider man villains, reduced to some lame jokes and face punching. There's no connection or tie anywhere at all, not even really with Strange, who's annoyed at the situation (and Peter himself), but they don't have any real bond either. There's just dudes to punch, and (more) set up for the Multiverse.
Which goes back to Sony- sure, they get a bag of cash for this, but Disney also gets a bag of cash, and also sets up their NEXT bag of cash (or the next arc of cash bags). Sony wins, but Disney gets to win twice. For competitors in the same field, that isn't really a great business deal.
In this trailer we have some dialog about how these are all people who died fighting spider men of different universes. Their fate is to die or whatever. And Peter refuses to let them die and wants to save all of them. His personal connection looks to be his power and responsibility. It doesn't matter if another spiderman let them die. He is now shouldering the responsibility to stop them while saving them. A very spider man thing to happen. And very personal stakes for himself. What it means to be spiderman trying to save everyone.
And while this surely does lead into multiverse of maddness, so does Wandavision and Loki. Loki more than anything.
So we get the tidbit that these are all dudes who died fighting Spider-Man, except Doc Oct didn’t die Fighting him, he died sacrificing himself to save the city after he took back control of his mind from the arm AI. And of course it’s Doc Oct we see going wait, you’re not Peter, and then forming enough of a connection that they’re able to have some conversations. I do hope we get to see more of that and his bit of redemption there from the end of his movie.
Apparently, in the Brazillian cut of the trailer, you can see Lizardman react to being punched, but they edited out whoever is doing the punching. There is still hope for the other spidermen appearing in this film.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I see nothing about that trailer that looks Zack Snyder-y.
I'd start with overstuffed, point out it looks like a green screen/spectacle fest, move into stakes ramped up to 11 (universes colliding! lights in the sky!), and then reference the teased death of a major character. Oh, and Spidey apparently has a Mother Box...?
It's a Spider-Man film. It's a character who's often introduced with the epithet "Friendly Neighborhood". It feels like they lost the thread on that...or maybe they never really had that thread with the Holland films anyway. I get that they wanted their own Into the Spider-Verse, but that movie was GREAT because it had a good, grounded story with lots of heart at its core, and the multiverse stuff was just there to serve it.
This doesn't appear to be that...it seems to be leading with "LOOK AT ALL THIS...STUFF!" We've seen two other 'everything but the kitchen sink' Spidey movies before and the results weren't good. This looks like Spider-Man: Endgame to me in all the worst ways.
Others may disagree. *shrug* I'm sure it'll make a jillion dollars, so whatever.
I think it feels like a joint venture in which two partners are each trying to get what they need. I'm sure it will be a very good business venture for both of them. But that's how this comes across to me...not so much like a work of art or a great story idea. I'm sure it'll be great spectacle with fan service every minute. But I feel like I can wait to watch that at home. *shrug*
Oh...and to be fair and clear, the first two Holland films *were* pretty grounded and not like this. It's just the looming presence of Tony Stark in each where they felt wonky to me. But the scope felt much better and the movies weren't overstuffed.
insaniak wrote: That seems like a lot of assumptions to make based on a 3 minute sizzle reel, honestly.
I would assume that this will also serve to set up the next Spiderman movie, whether that's as a part of the MCU or Sony forging off on their own, but they're not really going to show us the hook for the next movie in the trailer for this one.
My point is... they're literally showing us the hook for the next movie in this trailer.
The 'next movie' is just Dr Strange 2, not... whatever Sony does with (a probably new) Peter Parker (given the usual rate they recycle actors. Have any made it past 3 films?).
Voss wrote: (given the usual rate they recycle actors. Have any made it past 3 films?).
No, I don't think so.
I think this does look overstuffed, but I am totally there for it. I think it looks great even if a little formulaic. I am a sucker for multiverse shenanigans though.
Voss wrote: My point is... they're literally showing us the hook for the next movie in this trailer.
That's because they already showed us that, in Loki and WandaVision. So it's not giving anything away. This movie is only a part of the setup for Strange 2, and I would expect there to be more to the overall story than is shown in the trailer, just as there was in the Far From Home.
OK I can’t wait any longer. Here comes the spoiler froth!
Spoiler:
Amazing film. Hit all the right notes. Not only do we get three Spideys for price of one, but also Matt Murdock (Charlie Cox), confirmation that the government (or at least one department) knows Nick Fury was off-world for Far From Home.
Wang is Sorceror Supreme due to Dusting of Strange.
Hint of Venom, with a clear indication at least part of him is now in the MCU. I’ve not seen Carnage yet, so unsure if that had a matching sting.
I really enjoyed the three Spideys shared screen time. We get a hint of what the previous two went on to (including Amazing no longer pulling his punches) and just an awful lot of quippy fun. Three awkward dudes being awkward. Bit fan servicey, and it may prove divisive there, but I enjoyed it.
Villains all make good sense, apart from Sandman suddenly turning arsehole for no reason (he just wanted to get back to his daughter after all). Not all the questions are answered, but I didn’t find it impacted my enjoyment any.
Second sting is basically our first trailer for Multiverse of Madness which looks….well. It’s either gonna rock big nads, or be bloody awful. I’m sure we did get a glimpse of Evil Dr Strange from What If? though.
That was amazing! That was spectacular! That was friendly neighb... no wait that one doesn't make sense...
That was... fantastic. It really was. Enjoyed it from start to finish. That's easily my fav Spider-Man film, and is to the 7 preceding films (not that 5 of them were even considered 'preceding' before this) what Endgame is to the Avengers.
Anyway, spoiler time (long post!):
Spoiler:
I'll start with the one thing about the film I didn't like: The death of Aunt May. She did get to do the 'Greater Power/Great Responsibility" bit, which was touching, but it felt more like a "I want to be out of these films, please kill me off" than a "This is important for the story" thing. So overall not good, even though it did give us some great acting from Holland especially when he's getting angrier and angrier during Gobby's beat down at the end. Plus it also means we'll have endure the usual suspects screeching about 'Fridging' and other nonsense. *sigh*
Anyway, I thought this was simply brilliant, paying off everything from every Spidey film in ways that I never thought possible or imagined would ever happen.
We got a tremendous storyline for MCU-Peter, all about sacrifice, the aforementioned responsibility, and dealing with the consequences of one's actions. He learnt that even trying to reverse things leaves you in a situation that may not be ideal, and that you just have to make a new suit and keep on swinging. Stellar stuff from Holland in this one.
I was worried that Ned wouldn't get a lot to do in this one, but he and MJ got a pretty even spread of plotline, even though a lot of it was those two together. Still the guy in the chair, and calling "Peter" to a room full of Peter Parkers was very funny.
MJ was also good in this, especially as she was't so forcibly dark as she was in the previous two films, where it just came off as posing. She can be morose without trying to be an edgy teen with a chip on her shoulder, and here it worked very well.
Strange was fun, his arrogance always peeks through a little, and it's fun how in control he is for the most part. Dude is majorly powerful, far more than we give him credit for. Thanos only beat the man because of the stones, that's for sure.
The villains were top notch - all of them. Even from the briefest of glimpses, I thought that Sandman and Lizard would get the short shrift, and be relegated to growling/snarling monsters that are there because of nostalgia. But no, the original actors both came back, were both true to their characters from those films (turning everyone into lizards is still stupid, Dr. Connors), and their interactions were spot on. I especially liked how Sandman appeared and immediately started helping Peter, remembering that when we last saw Marko in Spider-Man 3, he was leaving not as Peter's friend, but certainly not as his enemy.
Electro was... wow. I like Jamie Foxx, and I'm happy he got to redeem that character from the train-wreck he was in ASM2. It's fun how he wasn't really down with the whole "give up my powers" thing, but not evil enough to just go against the group until Gobby went haywire.
Doc Oc was simply fantastic. I'll go on record and say that I do not like Spider-Man 2. I do not think it's as good as everyone makes it out to be, and one of my chief reasons is because I think the totally exposed and super-fething-fragile control chip that gets destroyed immediately the first damned time he uses it leading to the arms taking over is one of the dumbest plot points in any movie I've ever seen Completely ruined my suspension of disbelief and everything from there kinda fell flat.
But in this film, they dealt with that, they gave him wonderful villain moments, great interactions with him and Osborn, and then redeemed him by fixing it and having Doc Oc, as he was at the start of SM2, return to us. And then he even gets to be the Big Damn Hero™ at the end, helping to defuse the situation with Electro. Super cool.
And that leaves us with a surprising star of the show: Norman Osborn and the Green Goblin. I do not like Spider-Man 2, but I really like the first Raimi Spider-Man, even if Gobby is a bit Power Ranger villain-y ("We'll meet again, Spider-Man!"). Dafoe brought it, and brought it hard, selling the frightened Osborn who knows he's done wrong, and is terrified of what's inside him, and as the totally insane Green Goblin, hell-bent on killing Peter but only after he's made him suffer. The fact that it turns out he is the main villain of the piece was just wonderful writing, kind of like bringing everything back to the original Spider-Man movie. And he got to interact with Tobey-Peter as well. Wonderful stuff through and through. He enhanced an already excellent movie. "I'm something of a scientist myself...". Brilliant.
I went into the film thinking that, no, we weren't really going to get Tobey-Peter or Andrew-Peter. The villains were enough, and something else would explain why that bit of the trailer had the Lizard getting kicked in the face by no one. But nope, they both showed up, and it was more than just a cameo. They got real arcs to follow, we saw how they were very different. Tobey-Peter was more content, likely still married with MJ (and hopefully with a daughter - future 'Mayday' Parker!), and had gone on learning how to be a person and a hero. Andrew-Peter on the other hand, never got over Gwen's death, and became more bitter over time until he was no longer stopping his villains, but killing them.
Seeing Andrew-Peter almost begin to cry when he saved MCU-MJ was incredible. A really touching scene. It was a perfect use of his character, having him do something that he never could with his own love. I wouldn't call it 'redemption' per se, but certainly a fitting resolution to that, allowing him to move forward and change for the better. And his talk with Electro, another wonderful piece. Them coming to an understanding.
It was fun seeing Tobey-Peter again, especially as the older and wiser Spider-Man. Different vibe than Sweatpants-Peter from Into the Spider-Verse, who was more down on his luck/just kinda existing. This was a guy who took the lessons of Uncle Ben to heart, as we saw him in his three movies, but specifically never forgot them and continued to strive to be a hero. Plus we got to see him interact with Gobby and Doc Oc again, which was awesome.
It would be fun to get a glimpse at their respective worlds post-NWH. To see how this experience has affected they way they act as Spider-Men.
As for the three of them together, that was endless fun. They actually addressed the organic web shooters! That was frickin' amazing. And Andrew-Peter "I fought a Russian guy in a Rhino suit...". Wonderful stuff. "Great. What's an Avenger?". The right kind of fan service and referencing. It actually enhanced their growing camaraderie, and was an element of them eventually having to learn to work as a team (a very new concept for the two interlopers!).
The Eddie/Venom cameo was a nice touch, and man I hope that leftover bit of symbiote leads us somewhere cool. I thought Venom was ok (haven't seen the sequel), but I love the characterisation/voice of Venom (and that it's Tom Hardy doing the voice!). That was cool, even if he didn't get to stick around long.
My fav cameo was Matt Murdock. If you'll excuse the pun, I genuinely did not see that coming. His sudden appearance got the biggest rise from the audience (other than then other two Spideys). It was one scene, but it was just great. And he got the best line of the film, IMO:
"How did you catch that?" "I'm a very good lawyer."
Two Netflix characters brought into the MCU in a week. Keep it up Feige. Keep it up!
So overall I thought this was terrific from start to finish. Only one thing I didn't like, as mentioned above, but beyond that just an outstanding effort from all involved. Pays off so much we never even dared dream of. I cannot wait to see it again.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Right, booked in for tomorrow, and it seems to be getting universally positive reviews.
None of which I’ve read, as I don’t want any spoilers at all. When it comes to the MCU, the blinder I go in the better!
One of the most bizarre things I've read recently. I mean, not wanting spoilers from a Marvel movie. Like they're all so unique and you never know what to expect from them in the first place.
As for me, I'd rather eat dried-up dog gak than have to watch a Marvel movie, but to each their own.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Right, booked in for tomorrow, and it seems to be getting universally positive reviews.
None of which I’ve read, as I don’t want any spoilers at all. When it comes to the MCU, the blinder I go in the better!
One of the most bizarre things I've read recently. I mean, not wanting spoilers from a Marvel movie. Like they're all so unique and you never know what to expect from them in the first place.
As for me, I'd rather eat dried-up dog gak than have to watch a Marvel movie, but to each their own.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That was amazing!
That was spectacular!
That was friendly neighb... no wait that one doesn't make sense...
That was... fantastic. It really was. Enjoyed it from start to finish. That's easily my fav Spider-Man film, and is to the 7 preceding films (not that 5 of them were even considered 'preceding' before this) what Endgame is to the Avengers.
Anyway, spoiler time (long post!):
Spoiler:
I'll start with the one thing about the film I didn't like: The death of Aunt May. She did get to do the 'Greater Power/Great Responsibility" bit, which was touching, but it felt more like a "I want to be out of these films, please kill me off" than a "This is important for the story" thing. So overall not good, even though it did give us some great acting from Holland especially when he's getting angrier and angrier during Gobby's beat down at the end. Plus it also means we'll have endure the usual suspects screeching about 'Fridging' and other nonsense. *sigh*
Anyway, I thought this was simply brilliant, paying off everything from every Spidey film in ways that I never thought possible or imagined would ever happen.
We got a tremendous storyline for MCU-Peter, all about sacrifice, the aforementioned responsibility, and dealing with the consequences of one's actions. He learnt that even trying to reverse things leaves you in a situation that may not be ideal, and that you just have to make a new suit and keep on swinging. Stellar stuff from Holland in this one.
I was worried that Ned wouldn't get a lot to do in this one, but he and MJ got a pretty even spread of plotline, even though a lot of it was those two together. Still the guy in the chair, and calling "Peter" to a room full of Peter Parkers was very funny.
MJ was also good in this, especially as she was't so forcibly dark as she was in the previous two films, where it just came off as posing. She can be morose without trying to be an edgy teen with a chip on her shoulder, and here it worked very well.
Strange was fun, his arrogance always peeks through a little, and it's fun how in control he is for the most part. Dude is majorly powerful, far more than we give him credit for. Thanos only beat the man because of the stones, that's for sure.
The villains were top notch - all of them. Even from the briefest of glimpses, I thought that Sandman and Lizard would get the short shrift, and be relegated to growling/snarling monsters that are there because of nostalgia. But no, the original actors both came back, were both true to their characters from those films (turning everyone into lizards is still stupid, Dr. Connors), and their interactions were spot on. I especially liked how Sandman appeared and immediately started helping Peter, remembering that when we last saw Marko in Spider-Man 3, he was leaving not as Peter's friend, but certainly not as his enemy.
Electro was... wow. I like Jamie Foxx, and I'm happy he got to redeem that character from the train-wreck he was in ASM2. It's fun how he wasn't really down with the whole "give up my powers" thing, but not evil enough to just go against the group until Gobby went haywire.
Doc Oc was simply fantastic. I'll go on record and say that I do not like Spider-Man 2. I do not think it's as good as everyone makes it out to be, and one of my chief reasons is because I think the totally exposed and super-fething-fragile control chip that gets destroyed immediately the first damned time he uses it leading to the arms taking over is one of the dumbest plot points in any movie I've ever seen Completely ruined my suspension of disbelief and everything from there kinda fell flat.
But in this film, they dealt with that, they gave him wonderful villain moments, great interactions with him and Osborn, and then redeemed him by fixing it and having Doc Oc, as he was at the start of SM2, return to us. And then he even gets to be the Big Damn Hero™ at the end, helping to defuse the situation with Electro. Super cool.
And that leaves us with a surprising star of the show: Norman Osborn and the Green Goblin. I do not like Spider-Man 2, but I really like the first Raimi Spider-Man, even if Gobby is a bit Power Ranger villain-y ("We'll meet again, Spider-Man!"). Dafoe brought it, and brought it hard, selling the frightened Osborn who knows he's done wrong, and is terrified of what's inside him, and as the totally insane Green Goblin, hell-bent on killing Peter but only after he's made him suffer. The fact that it turns out he is the main villain of the piece was just wonderful writing, kind of like bringing everything back to the original Spider-Man movie. And he got to interact with Tobey-Peter as well. Wonderful stuff through and through. He enhanced an already excellent movie. "I'm something of a scientist myself...". Brilliant.
I went into the film thinking that, no, we weren't really going to get Tobey-Peter or Andrew-Peter. The villains were enough, and something else would explain why that bit of the trailer had the Lizard getting kicked in the face by no one. But nope, they both showed up, and it was more than just a cameo. They got real arcs to follow, we saw how they were very different. Tobey-Peter was more content, likely still married with MJ (and hopefully with a daughter - future 'Mayday' Parker!), and had gone on learning how to be a person and a hero. Andrew-Peter on the other hand, never got over Gwen's death, and became more bitter over time until he was no longer stopping his villains, but killing them.
Seeing Andrew-Peter almost begin to cry when he saved MCU-MJ was incredible. A really touching scene. It was a perfect use of his character, having him do something that he never could with his own love. I wouldn't call it 'redemption' per se, but certainly a fitting resolution to that, allowing him to move forward and change for the better. And his talk with Electro, another wonderful piece. Them coming to an understanding.
It was fun seeing Tobey-Peter again, especially as the older and wiser Spider-Man. Different vibe than Sweatpants-Peter from Into the Spider-Verse, who was more down on his luck/just kinda existing. This was a guy who took the lessons of Uncle Ben to heart, as we saw him in his three movies, but specifically never forgot them and continued to strive to be a hero. Plus we got to see him interact with Gobby and Doc Oc again, which was awesome.
It would be fun to get a glimpse at their respective worlds post-NWH. To see how this experience has affected they way they act as Spider-Men.
As for the three of them together, that was endless fun. They actually addressed the organic web shooters! That was frickin' amazing. And Andrew-Peter "I fought a Russian guy in a Rhino suit...". Wonderful stuff. "Great. What's an Avenger?". The right kind of fan service and referencing. It actually enhanced their growing camaraderie, and was an element of them eventually having to learn to work as a team (a very new concept for the two interlopers!).
The Eddie/Venom cameo was a nice touch, and man I hope that leftover bit of symbiote leads us somewhere cool. I thought Venom was ok (haven't seen the sequel), but I love the characterisation/voice of Venom (and that it's Tom Hardy doing the voice!). That was cool, even if he didn't get to stick around long.
My fav cameo was Matt Murdock. If you'll excuse the pun, I genuinely did not see that coming. His sudden appearance got the biggest rise from the audience (other than then other two Spideys). It was one scene, but it was just great. And he got the best line of the film, IMO:
"How did you catch that?"
"I'm a very good lawyer."
Two Netflix characters brought into the MCU in a week. Keep it up Feige. Keep it up!
So overall I thought this was terrific from start to finish. Only one thing I didn't like, as mentioned above, but beyond that just an outstanding effort from all involved. Pays off so much we never even dared dream of. I cannot wait to see it again.
I give it 9 Goblin Bombs out of 10!
Also alsö….
Spoiler:
It gives us an inkling of how we might see the other existing Marvel properties semi-folded into the main dish, or at least presented as some kind of delightful side dish.
And that’s something very open for the House of Mouse to take advantage of, what with them buying Fox and thus gaining back two prime properties in X-Men and Fantastic 4. Especially when you consider Mr Fantastic is keen on a bit of reality hopping in the comics.
trexmeyer wrote: Apparently it has made over $250 million in its first weekend. That's nuts.
Just under $600m worldwide, it will be a surprise if it isn't the #3 MCU film for box office by the end of it's run.
Haven't really got anything to add that hasn't been said already (I'd even agree with HMBC on the best line ), for me this is the #2 MCU film, I only enjoyed Infinity War more.
Spoiler:
Apparently Strange 2 was meant to come first and they had to re-write because of pandemic-related shooting delays. Now obvs I don't know what the original story would have looked like, but what they've ended up with feels like a much more natural progression from NWH -> Strange 2.
I also think they did really well to choose 2 credit scenes that somehow still managed to be hype and not just totally over-shadowed by the film being so good (Venom & Dark Strange)
On a meta level, SM3 might be the most impressive movie ever made. They successfully combined 3 versions of Spider-Man into a single film that has nearly pleased everyone.
I remember when Tobey's first Spider-Man film came out and how much of a hit it was at the time. Imagine telling people then that it less than twenty years there would be a Raimi trilogy, another duology, and then a MCU where Spider-Man has appeared in two solo films, Civil War, Endgame, Infinity War AND THEN his third "solo" film would bring in Tobey and Andrew Garfield for a multiverse crossover? It blows my mind that it has even happened.
I think pulling off No Way Home is at on par with at least Infinity War or Endgame in terms of ambition.
Excellent film, no Idpol, plenty of fan service, great acting from all involved, Defoe steals every scene he is in, Holland gets to actually be spider man and not spider boy in starks shadow, satisfying ending, all around a damn solid movie, 8/10 from me.
A tearful 'farewell' to Andy and Toby, with a kind of passing of the torch? A shame, as 'The Three Spideys' were such a great team and it would be great to have them back. Tom's Spidey went through a journey there - rebuffing the other, older Spider-men - how can they know how feels? (But htey do, of course) and scathing of the fact that they killed (or will kill) their respective foes, only to be bashing The Green Goblin in to the wreckage of the shield. But his other selves were there, to save him from himself.
And now he's grown up Spidey - broke and on his own. The whole world has forgotten Peter Parker - no school place, no friends, no social security number. Broke and living in a dump of an apartment block, forced to make his costume out of cheap shiny spandex.
Saw it yesterday, I found it massively overrated. Acting was great and visuals and action scenes were awesome BUT the plot was utterly idiotic and fan service was so massive that I considered it quite irritating (I hate fan service in general to be honest).
Spoiler:
Why didn't Peter ask Strange to let people forget about Mysterio or what Mysterio said instead of trying to make them forget that Peter is Spiderman?
At least two of the respawned villians could have been completely skipped, no one wouldn't have noticed.
Overall it's on par with the two other episodes of the same franchise. Nice movie, definitely far from being a masterpiece, much better than the previous MCU episode though, the ultra boring Eternals. First post credits scene was the best part of the movie, absolutely brilliant.
Okay, so I think the movie was great. I think the Mysterio one is still better as a whole, but thats because I still have conversations with people who think Mysterio is dead. He tricks were so good, so tricky, that the audience is still fooled.
Goblin and Doc Oct are the highlights with
Spoiler:
Garfield
being the best actors in the batch.
Spoiler:
Toby Maguire Spidey
is a sociopath who stands like a plank of wood pretending to be a person. He has a fake smile pasted on the entire time because he thinks thats what people would do.
I really enjoy how this all wraps up. Tom Holland still has not killed a single villain, he still tries to save everyone, even if he needs a little help, he got his new suit and I am excited to see the next one. Can we get some Scorpion pay off soon? Id like that.
I went to see this film, but have not read any of the thread. Here are my thoughts, then I will go back and read the thread.
Thoughts in no particular order:
- No fair, they re-made Sony's Into the Spider-Verse all ready, but with Tom Holland!
- Nostalgia buttons smashed with Doc Ock and Green Goblin in this film.
- I have not been this geeked in a flick since Thor hit Cap's shield in Avengers - I am still blown away that Tom Holland is British.
- I really wanted to make a Dune reference, but I could not quite make the connection.
- Is Wong the actual Sorcerer Supreme of Earth?
Final thoughts:
Not convinced this is a good film by traditional standards, so much of it depends on good will from the MCU and older Spider-man flicks. The pacing was really weird, the story beats are wonky, and it feels a bit like a bridge or filler episode.
Edit: I got the Moebius: The Living Vampire trailer before the Spidey film, and in it Michael Keaton makes an appearance. Anyone know if he is playing the Vulture again?
Easy E wrote: - Is Wong the actual Sorcerer Supreme of Earth?
Seems to be.
Some people have a really big problem with this for some reason. To me it makes sense - Strange was, for all intents and purposes, dead for 5 years. Wong went into the position. Strange's return wouldn't necessarily mean that Wong steps back from the position and Strange gets it again.
Final thoughts:
Not convinced this is a good film by traditional standards, so much of it depends on good will from the MCU and older Spider-man flicks. The pacing was really weird, the story beats are wonky, and it feels a bit like a bridge or filler episode.
That's close to my feelings. I came out of the cinema having enjoyed the movie but with a pretty big "BUT..." left hanging in the air that I hadn't wanted to tackle.
In the time since I watched it, that "but" has become unavoidable. Holland's Spiderman has not developed much since his first outing but has had successful movies that overcome this shortfall in part due to strong plots and excellent bad guys.
No Way Home has neither a good plot nor bad guys. The bad guys are almost directionless and seem to serve no greater purpose than being bad for the sake of being bad.
Spoiler:
Defoe looks like he's having fun at least. Electro and Doc Ock help to move along what plot there is and can at least be said to be competent. The Lizard and Sandman could be cut from the movie with no loss.
The plot is worse than nonsense - it's virtually none existent. It is easily the worst plot of any film in the MCU so far. What little there is exists only as a way of mashing together pretty sequences and moments of banter.
Spoiler:
The opening 20 minutes are excellent and set the pace and tension of the movie. Or at least they should do. Because after that we get a scene introducing Matt Murdoch (ooh, this is starting to get exciting!) that basically tells you that we can ignore the tension of the first 20 minutes as everything has been dealt with offscreen. Oh and Matt Murdoch has no further interaction with the film so you can forget he bothered showing up.
WTF?
After that rug pull it's pretty difficult to care about what's going on. There's a couple of good action sequences - Doc Ock on the bridge was pretty good with a refreshing conclusion and the Dr Strange fight was at worst visually appealing. But the story is a big load of who gives a crap. If the story writer can't be bothered to be interested in writing compelling bad guys or interesting hero motivations then I'm not going to do the heavy lifting for them. The film only recovers once the extra Parkers are introduced.
And this is the first of the current Spiderman outings where Tom is looking old. He's 25 playing a 17 year old and, until he puts the suit on, it shows. That is starting to not work for me.
Overall the film is good and fun. There's some great action sequences and genuinely laugh out load moments. But it is empty and shallow fun. It's the most MCU of all the MCU films.
I agree with the above. It was fun, in the way that an amusement park ride is fun. It's a lot like IW and Endgame in that regard. It's not really a good film in the traditional sense. Which is why the talk about Disney creating an Oscar campaign for it has to be more of a PR stunt than a serious endeavor.
It was fun seeing the three of them together, and the actors had good chemistry while also showing their particular flavor of Spidey well (FWIW, I'm still convinced that Garfield is the most comics-accurate Spidey). On the flip side, the villains didn't work AT ALL, individually and especially as a group. It's probably a crazy challenge to try to make them work given the run time, them literally being from different universes, having some history with certain Peters and not with others, and on and on. And I understand that, but it goes to the point that this is a marketing concept first instead of a good story first. Into the Spider-Verse had that the other way around by comparison.
I'm encouraged that the end suggests a more traditional, focused Spidey going forward on multiple levels (I have to credit Marvel for acknowledging and winking at the faults of the Holland films in the "Iron Man Jr." headline that flashes up at one point). Garfield still has the best personality in the suit, but Holland would be just fine in movies about Spidey dealing with Spidey problems and Spidey villains with no involvement of Iron Man or other Avengers, universes colliding, etc. The MCU is an amazing creation, but it can be its own worst enemy when MCU films become about the MCU and advancing the overall MCU story instead of doing that particular hero right.
And WTF is up with teasing Tom Hardy's Venom meeting up with Spidey...but apparently saying 'nope, we're not doing that'? Are they just hedging their bets?
On behalf of Generation X, thank you for say 25 looks old :-)
But I get what you mean. Although Hollywood has a tradition of twentysomethings playing teenagers. It would have simple to explain if Spidey hadn't 'blipped' but that would have made his relationship with MJ and Ned weird.
And this is the first of the current Spiderman outings where Tom is looking old. He's 25 playing a 17 year old and, until he puts the suit on, it shows. That is starting to not work for me.
Seriously? Tom Holland might be 25 now (so technically 24 during the shooting) but he looks like a child. Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield looked (and actually were) much older when they were protagonists of thier movies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkNorfolk wrote: On behalf of Generation X, thank you for say 25 looks old :-)
But I get what you mean. Although Hollywood has a tradition of twentysomethings playing teenagers. It would have simple to explain if Spidey hadn't 'blipped' but that would have made his relationship with MJ and Ned weird.
This and it's not just Hollywood. Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones was supposed to be a child (13yo I think) and yet they hired a woman in her mid 20s who were in her 30s during last season. Ciri from The Witcher is supposed to be a child as well (12yo in the novels IIRC) and yet they hired a teenager, who is a stunning 20 years old woman now and will likely be near 30 when the series end.
We all know how Hollywood works and the ages of Maguire and Garfield when they took their roles. I love Far From Home as it's a teen tour comedy with bits of action stitched on, and the core cast of "teenagers" fit the bill.
I can't explain why but the "gee whizz" teenager of Holland's Spiderman wasn't as convincing for me in this film.
We all know how Hollywood works and the ages of Maguire and Garfield when they took their roles. I love Far From Home as it's a teen tour comedy with bits of action stitched on, and the core cast of "teenagers" fit the bill.
I can't explain why but the "gee whizz" teenager of Holland's Spiderman wasn't as convincing for me in this film.
To me, the "oh gosh...gee whiz...sorry sir" thing is just played out. At this point, Holland's Parker has been through a LOT and it was past time for him to stop acting like a 14 year old. Again, I'm cautiously encouraged that they're moving past that facile characterization from the team films into a more well-rounded one.
This and it's not just Hollywood. Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones was supposed to be a child (13yo I think) and yet they hired a woman in her mid 20s who were in her 30s during last season. Ciri from The Witcher is supposed to be a child as well (12yo in the novels IIRC) and yet they hired a teenager, who is a stunning 20 years old woman now and will likely be near 30 when the series end.
There are reasons that apply to those two characters (and NOT to Tom Holland) that easily explain why those two were aged up for the filmed shows. No one who shouldn't be in prison should want to watch what happens to them happen to young teens/preteens.
Its more than fetishy enough as is.
Tom Holland is fine at 25 .
Going by Sony's history with Spiderman films, he's likely to be kicked to the curb and the whole thing rebooted at this point.
This and it's not just Hollywood. Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones was supposed to be a child (13yo I think) and yet they hired a woman in her mid 20s who were in her 30s during last season. Ciri from The Witcher is supposed to be a child as well (12yo in the novels IIRC) and yet they hired a teenager, who is a stunning 20 years old woman now and will likely be near 30 when the series end.
There are reasons that apply to those two characters (and NOT to Tom Holland) that easily explain why those two were aged up for the filmed shows. No one who shouldn't be in prison should want to watch what happens to them happen to young teens/preteens.
Its more than fetishy enough as is.
Tom Holland is fine at 25 .
Going by Sony's history with Spiderman films, he's likely to be kicked to the curb and the whole thing rebooted at this point.
Well, if it's ok to read it it should be ok to watch it. Some violent stuff can also be just hinted and not clearly shown.
IMHO the main reason of hiring older actors in the role of kids is to avoid having the person look much different after a couple of seasons. Kids grow really fast, young adults not as much. Which is the same with Spider Man as an actor who was hired for the part could be expected to last even 10 years. That's why I praise Tom Holland's casting, he's so baby face looking that it can definitely look a believable teen at 25 and after 5 years from his debut in Civil War.
So, I thought they did a good job with it, but I'm really confused about the direction they're going. Homecoming and Far From Home were all about Peter becoming the next Iron Man, but now that's completely out the window. I get that now Spider-Man is down to his more traditional character of doing his best even though he doesn't have much going for him, but if feels like a complete 180 for the direction of the character. Maybe they have a long term plan to get back to him taking over for Iron Man after he matures and gets more experience.
I don't think the plan was ever for Spider Man to be the next Iron Man.
I think the first 2 films were about Spiderman figuring out what Spiderman and ultimately himself actually is. He's a kid in highschool in way over his head. It's Tony Stark that thinks of people as the next himself. Any perspective about Spidey becoming anything like Iron Man comes from Tony.
And then Tony goes to make him and Avenger with a press conference and Spidey turns him down. I think it's important to remember Spidey's own actions next to Tony's simultaneous meddling and neglect.
bbb wrote: So, I thought they did a good job with it, but I'm really confused about the direction they're going. Homecoming and Far From Home were all about Peter becoming the next Iron Man, but now that's completely out the window. I get that now Spider-Man is down to his more traditional character of doing his best even though he doesn't have much going for him, but if feels like a complete 180 for the direction of the character. Maybe they have a long term plan to get back to him taking over for Iron Man after he matures and gets more experience.
I think it’s more about Spidey finding his own place.
Yes Tony was a pretty generous mentor, and at first Spidey wanted to get fully involved. But his first two outings do kind of show he’s not quite ready yet. Lack of experience being his main issue. I mean, he starts off being the proverbial Friendly Neighbourhood. Street level thugs are no threat to him, and he’s almost an emergency service unto himself.
But once the stakes are raised? He’s rapidly out of his depth, and it shows. It’s not that he’s incompetent as such, just that he’s well, a high schooler. Insecure, inexperienced, overly enthusiastic. Pretty standard teenage stuff.
Miles should not appear for a long time. I don't want to see a MCU miles for at least another 6-10 years. Let Peter get older and wiser so that a young Miles can have him as a mentor or take over.
Spoiler:
Dr Strange was handling it up until Spiderman put him in a mirror canyon for a large number of hours.
bbb wrote:So, I thought they did a good job with it, but I'm really confused about the direction they're going. Homecoming and Far From Home were all about Peter becoming the next Iron Man, but now that's completely out the window. I get that now Spider-Man is down to his more traditional character of doing his best even though he doesn't have much going for him, but if feels like a complete 180 for the direction of the character. Maybe they have a long term plan to get back to him taking over for Iron Man after he matures and gets more experienc
I tend to agree with Lance and Doc on this. Spiderman's story usually has him as something of a loner. He'll help out the big teams, but he's not really part of any of them. Its just that the film versions tend to get recycled before they move past the insecure young hero phase.
And Iron Man has several heirs-in-waiting, though we're still waiting to be introduced to the most likely one. But it wasn't ever going to be Spidey.
Also, completely wasted a perfect opportunity to have a Mile Morales appear. Instead it's
"Once again we have a Avengers level threat, and no Avengers. We'll just let the 17 year old kid handle it."
I take it you walked out of the theatre before Dr. Strange returned from the mirror realm, dealt with the cosmic rifts, & cast the memory wipe spell?
Avenger, dealing with it....
Or are you just referring to Spidy(s) punching/curing the villains? Spidy villains =/= Avengers lv threats. Not even on their best day.
Well, to be completely fair. Dr. Strange ISN'T an Avenger. He doesn't work for Stark and never did. He protects more then the Avengers ever did in the MCU. Really, this wasn't an Avengers level threat. This was a Strange level threat. That Spiderman basically caused and Strange made Spiderman clean up until he fethed around and made a bigger mess.
The Avengers don't really exist at the moment, in practical terms. Some are dead, one is retired, and the few still kickin' around are doing their own things. I imagine when they get around to another Avengers film it will be about reassembling with the new/remaining members.
Exactly, who are the current avengers? Thor, Cap Marvel, the Guardians, Ant Man and Wanda are all on their own following their own sub plots. The Wakandians couldn't care less.
There were basically just Hulk, Falcon and the Winter Soldier available, other than Dr Strange, and who knows what Banner is doing these days .
Easy E wrote: Yeah, Thor, Capt. Marvel, and the Guardians are all off in space aren't they?
Yup. Wanda is literally off in the middle of nowhere in a cabin in the woods, so I don't think Peter would have been able to find or reach her even if he tried. Tony's dead, Nat is dead, and Steve's retired. Jolena is off hunting down Barton, who is also (mostly) retired. Bruce doesn't look like he's in any shape to fight when we last saw him in Shang Chi, as he's no longer smart Hulk and was wearing a cast nursing that messed up gauntlet arm he deep fried in Endgame.
That does still leave quite a few heroes out though. Scott, Hope, Bucky, and Sam would presumably all be available?
How is messing around with the fabric of space/time NOT an avengers level threat? Last time they did this, it was Avengers Endgame.
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy watching three spidermen be all happy together, but can we at least admit perspective here?
This wasn't a good script, this was Marvel jacking it into a script writing computer and slapping the Spiderman name on it. It had so much it was trying to do, that it really failed to accomplish any of it. Was anyone really surprised that Gwen/MJ was saved? Or that Old Tobey getting stabbed was not the end of him? No. Because there was never really any feeling of tension in this film. Half way through the first act, Tobey has either beat up or rounded up 75% of the Sinister 6, and the others he has "Cured" of evil, or somehow been fooled by. Aunt Hottie deserved to die in this movie, so we never have to see the pathetic attempt at relationship building for her again with Happy. Also, why is Happy still here? No one has told him, he's basically Krillin from DBZ here. Basically useless and just wasting screen time.
Getting back to the point, this movie just wanted to sell tickets to hungry fans of the first 3 franchises, as a buddy action comedy, and it doesn't even have any comedy, and they only really become "buddies" in the last 10 minutes. The best attempt at jokes are ejaculation jokes about where Tobey's web fluid comes from(no pun intended). Other than that it's Waaah people are dead and lets all say that special line together, "With great responsability, comes great PROFITS! We made 1.5 Billion off this!"
I'm sorry, but I didn't enjoy this film afterwards, and I feel like Marvel has given up even trying now. Everything is so poorly written it's just painful.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is messing around with the fabric of space/time NOT an avengers level threat? Last time they did this, it was Avengers Endgame.
Because movie Avenegers have never faced someone messing with space time or alternate realities. An Avengers level threat is cleaning up Hydra post Winter Soldier and the fall of shield. Ultron. The Chitari invasion. And Thanos, which they lost. Tears in reality and people from other dimensions bleeding through would put them all right out of their depth.
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy watching three spidermen be all happy together, but can we at least admit perspective here?
This wasn't a good script, this was Marvel jacking it into a script writing computer and slapping the Spiderman name on it. It had so much it was trying to do, that it really failed to accomplish any of it. Was anyone really surprised that Gwen/MJ was saved? Or that Old Tobey getting stabbed was not the end of him? No. Because there was never really any feeling of tension in this film. Half way through the first act, Tobey has either beat up or rounded up 75% of the Sinister 6, and the others he has "Cured" of evil, or somehow been fooled by. Aunt Hottie deserved to die in this movie, so we never have to see the pathetic attempt at relationship building for her again with Happy. Also, why is Happy still here? No one has told him, he's basically Krillin from DBZ here. Basically useless and just wasting screen time.
Getting back to the point, this movie just wanted to sell tickets to hungry fans of the first 3 franchises, as a buddy action comedy, and it doesn't even have any comedy, and they only really become "buddies" in the last 10 minutes. The best attempt at jokes are ejaculation jokes about where Tobey's web fluid comes from(no pun intended). Other than that it's Waaah people are dead and lets all say that special line together, "With great responsability, comes great PROFITS! We made 1.5 Billion off this!"
I'm sorry, but I didn't enjoy this film afterwards, and I feel like Marvel has given up even trying now. Everything is so poorly written it's just painful.
I respect your opinion here. I disagree with all of it. It was a funny movie when it was light. It had great acting all around. The story highlighted Peters unwillingness to kill or let people be killed which so far only the Tom Hollad Spiderman has done.
You don't need to question whether MJ is going to get caught in the same way you don't need to question that Gwen Stacy won't. Anyone who thinks about it for even a second is well aware of what is going to go down.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: How is messing around with the fabric of space/time NOT an avengers level threat? Last time they did this, it was Avengers Endgame.
How would they have known? When it really started happening was at the end of the film and the only people that knew were there at that time. The randomly sprinkled around the universe Avengers don't have super wristwatches that tell them their has been a subtle shift in reality and that maybe something soon is going to escalate the problem. The one person, Stephen (that still sounds weird), who would know was there and dealing with it.
Plus that is almost always a general problem when you have shared universes with multiple characters. Since the first Avengers film almost every film after that in the MCU that was a solo film I've seen someone say "Why wasn't X Avengers there?" or some variation.
Finally got to see it this weekend and really really liked it. I am a little disappointed in the rebooted nature of the ending. Tom could literally just morph into Tobey at this point and be good to go, but such is the One More Day nature of the story. I do kind of hate that he doesn't respect any of his friends wishes in the name of protecting them in the end, simply because that failing was a huge part of what started this in the first place. Like even with Strange, he has every ability to tell him that he cast this spell and Stephen would at this point have to be "uh... yeah, that sounds like a thing I'd do".
On that note, I do have to give the film a lot of credit for telling far more of a story than the vast majority of MCU films. I really don't get why people are so dismissive of the plots of these things. Like, they're not mysteries or mechanically complicated, but that's not really the point. They're character driven stories and while I think a lot of them have pretty ho-hum central drives, this one pulls off the themes of balancing power and responsibility better than anything since Doc Ock recognized the danger of his hubris in Spidey2. The character is really forced to grow up in a way that we rarely see play out to the point where even my criticism above kind of misses the point that by the end Peter chooses to lay in the bed he made rather than take easy outs available.
To a degree though, that might be the one place where I feel a thematic throughline was missed. Pretty early on its established that a lot of this mess was caused by Peter failing to trust his friends to be willing to make sacrifices for him and failing to let them make their own decisions. There's a decent chance that there's some sequel bait in that, but the final choice really is no better than the mistake that started it all and.... on a purely personal note, I HATE the trend of superheroes not willing to have a support network. It's like the one real kryptonite for Batman and most other characters should do better.
Anyway, good film, probably one of the best in the MCU. Not sure if I'm going to like the sequels, but as a mini Endgame for the Spiderman franchise; it was really good.
And WTF is up with teasing Tom Hardy's Venom meeting up with Spidey...but apparently saying 'nope, we're not doing that'? Are they just hedging their bets?
A chunk of the Symbiote gets left in the MCU where in all likelihood, it'll be picked up on spring break by Flash Thompson so he can be Agent Venom.
Truthfully they've just kind of left a blank slate to do whatever they want. I don't think or at least hope they don't do Tom in the black suit. This movie covered that arc pretty well (with Tobey stepping in to make up for his failure in a more convoluted nod than Garfield's second chance). This is effectively a full reboot, with cast shipped off to Boston and Peter left starting from scratch.
The main question is whether they'll make that the point. Agent Venom is one way as is the heavy baiting of Ned becoming the Hobgoblin. They even reference MJ's father not liking Spidey, which could be turned into a Beetle/Tombstone kind of deal. Of course, they can just forget those characters entirely as they've been effectively written out.
I think it depends on how much Sony takes the reigns going forward. They largely exorcised all the MCU elements so that seems very possible. That's not got me very hopeful, but remains to be seen.
They’ve also not entirely removed Ned and MJ from the future. They’re still there, they just don’t remember Peter. That’s not the same as killing them off. With Ned’s magical potential, they could enter that as a chink in the spell, allowing Ned to eventually recall Peter and their adventures.
We know there’s a new trilogy on the way. So whilst we may not see much if any of MJ and/or Ned in that one? Audience reaction could easily see them brought back in.
Next entry of course is Morbius. A movie I’m truly loathe to go and see because of the creep in the lead role. However, it seems we can expect to see Michael Keaton back as Toomes/Vulture, so again it’s going to be tied into the MCU to some degree.
Oh, and I feel like everyone forgets about the two teacher’s Spidey Shrine. Right there. In the middle of the high school. The one that confirms Peter is Spidey. And that Peter was a student at that school. Where they’ll have records. About Peter. And his Aunt. Even his former address. If memory serves, the spell only made everyone forget who Peter was. Which lets face it, is not the same as erasing all evidence he existed…. That’s a big old plot hook if ever I saw one, perhaps even a Tysonesque right hook. A Chekhov’s mobile field artillery, if you will.
The rules of the spell are VERY loose. I mean, even the rules of Venom showing up are pretty iffy to begin with (he knows Peter is Spiderman?). Peter getting his GED implies that he no longer exists in his school records even (Strange implies something similar) but there's a lot of big questions regarding paperwork that we probably shouldn't think TOO hard about.
I do feel like they want to do one blank slate film before bringing back the old cast. Honestly, I hope they don't even really touch on the symbiote for a while and just take this opportunity to avoid explaining it later. Maybe it will show up in the end credits for like 2 movies creeping closer, but I don't think Sony has the patience for something like that.
On the subject of Morbius, the strangest thing about that trailer is this weird feeling that there's no actual story. Like, guy gets super COVID and.... like he doesn't seem to be particularly conflicted by his condition or anything and there doesn't seem to be an antagonist of any sort so its like.... dude becomes Bat Man and....
Morbius is the single biggest neon sign that sony is desperate for MCU validation to date. It REEKS of desperation. It's 1 or 2 steps of desperation away from doing an about face and declaring itself an incel.
LunarSol wrote: I assume it on some level is looking to replicate Joker which should be hilarious for all the wrong reasons.
LOL, wut. If they're trying to replicate Joker using Jared Leto, arguably the worst Joker seen on screen so far, they've got a big surprise stinky box office bomb on their hands.
Ok, I’d completely missed the Morbius trailer; doesn’t look great, but neither did Venom and I actually quite enjoyed that when I finally got round to it. Guessing that they’re going to try and make an MCU Dexter “I’m a monster who hunts monsters” character.
Back on the Spider-Man thread, Sony will be making a grave mistake if they don’t include MJ and Ned in future films; the three of them together is the heart of the films and the chemistry between the actors, particularly in this one, is amazing. I just can’t see it working without them. Have to say, I figured that the memory wipe is something that would start to get walked back after Multiverse of Madness, but we’ll have to see.
I think the spell utilizes a lot of handwavium to get the result of everyone forgetting Peter even though everyone knows Spider-Man exists.
My biggest hope for MJ and Ned coming back is that MJ was wearing the necklace at the end. The broken black dahlia still means something to her, but she probably doesn't know why.
With Morbius, Blade and the Darkhold being introduced to the MCU, I really wonder if they're working towards Midnight Sons. It seems crazy to me that it could even be a possibility, but Blade being attached the the Eternals end credits really elevates the character.
And to wrap this back to Spider-Man, he and Ghost Rider had a few team-ups, so that could be an interesting way to bring GR into things with Spider-Man now possibly dealing with more street-level/not-Avengers level threats.
LunarSol wrote: I don't think we'll see any Blade/Morbius crossover. Blade seems wholly MCU where Morbius is likely to be similar to Venom in that regard.
Sony still has the exclusive film rights to a pool of Spider-man and related Spider-man characters which Morbius falls under. Blade is wholly owned by Marvel/Disney so you are, to my knowledge anyway, correct. This is why Marvel and Sony have to come to agreements with each other after each Tom Holland film.
Finally watched this with my kids (I know, super late to the party) but I really really enjoyed it. As a kid around my oldests age when the original Toby spidey came out and having enjoyed all but the emo spidey 3 walk spider man movies it was awesome to me. The closure not only for the spider mans but for all of their victims was excellent.
Also felt it was extremely well done as a stopping place for Holland if he wants to stop. Overall he's been the longest running spiderman with 6 movies he's been in. He's been great (even if I was mad they didn't finish out the Garfield trilogy) but if he wants a break he can now have it and it won't mess with the MCU moving forward.
The one real issue with Spidey at this point is that he's dealt with way, way bigger stuff than he should have at his age. So I think the universe/new heroes need to catch up with him which could also be what they're going for (yes, we all know it's really sony fething up the system but we can dream of a bigger picture)
I can't imagine they're going to take too long of a break with Holland. Part of me wonders if they included the Matt Murdock scene to set up a future crossover with the other street level heroes since Spidey seems to have decided to move away from the being involved in the big picture.
