Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/29 15:12:29


Post by: nels1031


This teaser cinematic was just dropped by Total War.

Empire DLC? Warhammer 3 teaser? Speculate!
The winds of magic stir, something powerful is coming. Watch this video to find out more. -Quote from the Warhammer Age of Sigmar FB page.




Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/29 17:56:55


Post by: Voss


They've already done an Empire DLC.

We know there's one more DLC pack to go for 2, which will probably have Dark Elves vs ??? to bring DE up to 6 lords like the rest of the base races for WH2.

'Grungni's Baldric' would suggest something for Dwarfs (though they already got a rework as well). But it may be some sort of general omen buried in a fluff reference somewhere.
And yeah:
----
https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Grungi%27s_Baldric
May just be teasing a date: late spring/early summer


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/29 18:16:42


Post by: Overread


Yep this is likely a teaser for the final DLC or a long term teaser for Warhammer 3, both of which are the next things from CA in general. Though there might be a small DLC for another game inbetween, the next big thing is Warhammer TW 3. Though I'd be surprised if that came before end of this year.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/29 19:48:37


Post by: Eumerin


I could see a plan to release WH3 for the holidays. It would be their only new game this year.

However, the announcement trailers have generally been bigger, and of better quality than this video.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/29 23:35:47


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Voss wrote:
They've already done an Empire DLC.

We know there's one more DLC pack to go for 2, which will probably have Dark Elves vs ??? to bring DE up to 6 lords like the rest of base races for WH2.


The only races with 6 Lords are the HE, Lizards and Skaven. DE are doing okay, having been featured in 2 DLCs and having 5 lords, equal to Orcs and Vampire counts. All the other races have 4 or less (Vampire Coast, TK, Empire, Dwarfs, Bretonnia, and Wood Elves all sitting on 4, then the Chaos factions with 3 or less).

I was thinking maybe Dwarfs and Vampires, given that on the last update they expanded eastwards with more Vampires.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 00:44:47


Post by: Voss


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
They've already done an Empire DLC.

We know there's one more DLC pack to go for 2, which will probably have Dark Elves vs ??? to bring DE up to 6 lords like the rest of the base races for WH2.


The only races with 6 Lords are the HE, Lizards and Skaven. DE are doing okay, having been featured in 2 DLCs and having 5 lords, equal to Orcs and Vampire counts. All the other races have 4 or less (Vampire Coast, TK, Empire, Dwarfs, Bretonnia, and Wood Elves all sitting on 4, then the Chaos factions with 3 or less).


I'm aware of the lord counts. They're clearly aiming at having 6 for each of the four base races of Warhammer 2. They've done the other three (as you spell out, HE, Lizards and Skaven), so the last DLC (or the accompanying FLC) will almost certainly feature a 6th DE lord. FLC may be more likely, since I can't figure what else they'd pack into the roster at this point.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 00:57:02


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Ah ok, I didn't realise by "base" you were only referring to only the 4 races from the initial release of WH2.

Either way, DE have already had 2 paid DLC's, which is equal to the others also.

So I'd be surprised if it's a DE DLC at this point, but who knows.

Seems a lot of folk are leaning more toward it being something to do with WH3.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 01:05:37


Post by: Overread


We know there's 1 more DLC so its most likely for that. We also know Warhammer 3 is coming, but from what we know Corona has delayed development on it. So I'd be very shocked if we were getting hints on W3 this early in the year and before the last DLC for Warhammer 2.

If anything I'd expect at least one more DLC after Warhammer 2's last DLC for one of their other games before we see Warhammer 3.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 01:40:10


Post by: Eumerin


Are we sure that the "final DLC" wasn't the one that we just got for Wood Elves and Skaven?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 03:12:10


Post by: H.B.M.C.


CA said it wasn't.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 07:58:43


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Overread wrote:
We know there's 1 more DLC so its most likely for that. We also know Warhammer 3 is coming, but from what we know Corona has delayed development on it. So I'd be very shocked if we were getting hints on W3 this early in the year and before the last DLC for Warhammer 2.

If anything I'd expect at least one more DLC after Warhammer 2's last DLC for one of their other games before we see Warhammer 3.


I think maybe it’s because of the (twin tailed?) comet that some folk are expecting something more world changing than a DLC.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 11:44:27


Post by: Overread


The Twin Tailed Comet has been a theme for all the games thus far, from the very first game. What would make sense is if the last DLC is going to have some portent directly to the unleashing of Chaos and such. Ergo one final message after all the vortext games and everyone breaking it.

Game 3 is very much going to be CA's take on the End Times with rampant Chaos armies and Chaos demons and such.



Brings the game to a nice close, ends it for new fans and leaves CA well open to making Age of Sigmar Total War


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 12:54:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


This is a tease for 3, and it won't be the only one.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 14:12:35


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Overread wrote:
The Twin Tailed Comet has been a theme for all the games thus far, from the very first game. What would make sense is if the last DLC is going to have some portent directly to the unleashing of Chaos and such. Ergo one final message after all the vortext games and everyone breaking it.

Game 3 is very much going to be CA's take on the End Times with rampant Chaos armies and Chaos demons and such.


Perhaps, but I think the use of the comet would be more of a sign of the start of TW3 than a closing off of TW2.

But either way, we don't really know yet. I wouldn't put it past CA to start teasing TW3 before the final DLC for TW2 has come out, they did so back when TW2 was coming out also.

Brings the game to a nice close, ends it for new fans and leaves CA well open to making Age of Sigmar Total War


I dunno if they're going to try and kill the world like GW did. That's an open wound for Fantasy fans that's probably better off not to poke.

Have we heard whether CA has the rights to make anything AoS related? I imagine their license ends at Warhammer Fantasy rather than AoS. If anything I'd sooner see them make something for 40k than AoS.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 14:32:07


Post by: Overread


I can't see why CA can't kill off Old World. Once Warhammer 3 is released and its DLC launched they don't really have anything else to do. It's not like when GW killed it off and ended the model lines and rules and then it was all gone; CA can story wise end things at the end of Wahammer 3.

Like as not it will have an open ended campaign with lots of differnet good and bad factions and each will "win" at the end with the "cannon" ending being the demons winning.


That pairs it with the GW lore.



I don't think CA had the AoS licence ever because it wasn't even on the cards when they started. That said GW and CA would be fools to not progress and do AoS total War.



For GW its a chance to get a major PC game by a major player onto their AoS marketing system. For CA it allows them to work on a title that has proven super popular in sales and longevity (Three Kingdoms had more sales peak, but its active playerbase is way below Warhammer).

Plus CA likely can't just start over with a fresh Old World game, it would be daft and most would still be attached to the first game.





The other option would be CA doing another Old World game set in the same way GW is doing it. However I'd honestly expect them to shift into AoS for a main game - perhaps doing a Saga title for the new-restored Old World title GW is working on.
Plus doing AoS means CA can work with current stuff not old stuff. They could even start the game at the end of the Age of Myth and the start of the Age of Chaos and progress through to the Age of Sigmar or such. Or just focus on telling the launch of AoS.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 16:05:01


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Overread wrote:
I can't see why CA can't kill off Old World. Once Warhammer 3 is released and its DLC launched they don't really have anything else to do. It's not like when GW killed it off and ended the model lines and rules and then it was all gone; CA can story wise end things at the end of Wahammer 3.

Like as not it will have an open ended campaign with lots of differnet good and bad factions and each will "win" at the end with the "cannon" ending being the demons winning.


It's not that they "can't", I just think they might not want to do that.

There's nothing saying they have to finish the story by tying it up in a way that the world ends. The story doesn't have to end conclusively. Sometimes you're better off just leaving the world be and let people's imagination work instead of trying to wrap everything up.

It'll be interesting to see what they do after Warhammer, still quite a few years off finding out what that is. In some ways it'd be nice if they revisited some of the earlier factions and games for a bit of a refresh as Warhammer has more potential for replayability than the other Total War games. They might even expand in areas where GW hasn't if they're allowed.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 19:18:20


Post by: Voss


I don't think CA had the AoS licence ever because it wasn't even on the cards when they started. That said GW and CA would be fools to not progress and do AoS total War.

There are already AoS games in the works elsewhere.

The people behind Elite Dangerous and Zoo Tycoon are doing an RTS:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788003.page
Focus Home Interactive has a studio doing AoS: Storm Ground, a turn based strategy coming soon.

--
I'm not convinced CA wants to play in the AoS market, and deal with a new license, new direct competition and frankly, an irritated fanbase. The grognards have retreated into CAs arms in large numbers. And if I were CA (and Sony), I'd be grouchy about GW going to other companies to do AOS games, assuming they didn't give CA first refusal on an AoS license.

Going to AoS wouldn't be a 'progression' for CA. It'd be starting over from ground zero. New armies, backgrounds, maps, art, models, animations, style, everything.

They'd be better off (if they even want another GW license) aiming for the 'Old World' and doing a launch tie-in.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 19:47:09


Post by: Overread


Voss wrote:
I don't think CA had the AoS licence ever because it wasn't even on the cards when they started. That said GW and CA would be fools to not progress and do AoS total War.

There are already AoS games in the works elsewhere.

The people behind Elite Dangerous and Zoo Tycoon are doing an RTS:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788003.page
Focus Home Interactive has a studio doing AoS: Storm Ground, a turn based strategy coming soon.

--
I'm not convinced CA wants to play in the AoS market, and deal with a new license, new direct competition and frankly, an irritated fanbase. The grognards have retreated into CAs arms in large numbers. And if I were CA (and Sony), I'd be grouchy about GW going to other companies to do AOS games, assuming they didn't give CA first refusal on an AoS license.

Going to AoS wouldn't be a 'progression' for CA. It'd be starting over from ground zero. New armies, backgrounds, maps, art, models, animations, style, everything.

They'd be better off (if they even want another GW license) aiming for the 'Old World' and doing a launch tie-in.



GW has never given away exclusive licences - even with Old World CA still had other firms picking it up and doing stuff with it at the same time.
As for the idea about the "Grognards" I'd say that whilst computergame and wargame markets clearly overlap they are not the same markets. Sure there's a die-hard anti AOS block just like there's a die hard anti Old World block - both are small groups of people. The world has mostly moved on in the last 5 years or so from AoS's disaster of a launch. I don't think its healthy to keep treating the world as if we are still 5 days from launch day of AoS when talking about it and tip-toeing around in "fear" of the "Grognards"

Heck from the whole wealth of history CA has already basically made their own End Times storyline within their game. First game was rising war; second game is the shut down of the vortex; third game is the demonic invasion en-mass. That's basically your setup for an end of the world situation. Only when CA blows it up the game won't suddenly die.

And yes if CA did AoS it would mean doing mostly new things and that is a good thing. Look how long they typically leave between sequel games. CA can't do a sequel to Warhammer Total War likely for 5-10 years. IT's already an expensive game with a lot of DLC and jumping right back into repeating it over again would be a marketing mistake. Instead doing another fantasy IP would be very sensible and AoS would mean working with a firm they already have good relations and a licence with and a firm who are generally (it seems) quite amicable to giving out their licence.


An Old World Tie in might be a good idea, but I'd wager CA would overtake GW quite quickly in terms of races and content. Whilst the mechanics of the game take longer to develop; its much faster to make and release digital armies into a digital game than it is to make and release them for physical games (at least at the market and quality GW aims for). Like I said that would work well for a Saga game; ergo smaller scale, but it might take 15 years or more to get up to speed and size. IT's taken 5 years to get AoS up to speed and that's with some pretty fast releases and GW has Old World at the very least 3 years off and that's a best-estimation (and honestly like a Kickstarter estimation its very liable to get a year or more over estimation very easily).


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 21:04:13


Post by: Voss


 Overread wrote:
Voss wrote:
I don't think CA had the AoS licence ever because it wasn't even on the cards when they started. That said GW and CA would be fools to not progress and do AoS total War.

There are already AoS games in the works elsewhere.

The people behind Elite Dangerous and Zoo Tycoon are doing an RTS:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788003.page
Focus Home Interactive has a studio doing AoS: Storm Ground, a turn based strategy coming soon.

--
I'm not convinced CA wants to play in the AoS market, and deal with a new license, new direct competition and frankly, an irritated fanbase. The grognards have retreated into CAs arms in large numbers. And if I were CA (and Sony), I'd be grouchy about GW going to other companies to do AOS games, assuming they didn't give CA first refusal on an AoS license.

Going to AoS wouldn't be a 'progression' for CA. It'd be starting over from ground zero. New armies, backgrounds, maps, art, models, animations, style, everything.

They'd be better off (if they even want another GW license) aiming for the 'Old World' and doing a launch tie-in.



GW has never given away exclusive licences - even with Old World CA still had other firms picking it up and doing stuff with it at the same time.


For completely different types of games, yeah. But licenses aren't 'given away.' They're deals that have to benefit both parties.

You're glossing over a lot real work and real negotiations with your counter arguments for an utterly hypothetical 'Total AoS.'
A 'sequel' 5-10 years on, in terms of the video game market, isn't worth talking about. Sega can drag CA in a lot of different directions, and GWs priorities aren't set in stone for that long. They may well take the Dawn of War approach to the Totatl Warhammer concept and let it die a painful death after the trilogy ends.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/30 21:43:50


Post by: Overread


But Dawn of War ended because of the terrible 3rd game that didn't do well in the market. Total War Warhammer probably one of their best selling games right now (Vermintide might be better?)


Sure the licence isn't free, but right now an AoS licence would benefit GW and benefit CA in general. To me its the logical next step for both firms considering the current relations. It lets GW get a big AoS title game into the market;it lets CA continue down the path of a mass fantasy battle game without copy-catting their current Old World game and without having to negotiate a licence with a totally new IP holder or creating their own.


Sure CA could go another direction and GW could say no or give an unfavourable deal. In the end that's all possible, however as I see it the most positive and likely direction is an AoS Total War.
Or who knows perhaps a Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones official games (granted accepting that both of those IP have agreements with other firms and one could argue that Game of Thrones has past its peak now).


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/31 06:56:13


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


I do wonder how many TW:Warhammer fans would jump on a TW:AoS game, or if it'd be a different fanbase they need to attract.

Even though AoS in the miniature market might be doing better than WHFB was before it was murdered, WHFB was around for a long time and accumulated a large fanbase that maybe wasn't actively buying miniatures but was ready to jump on a Total War game, making it more popular than the historical Total War games. How many of those fans will also jump at AoS?

Maybe it's just me, but I think TWW is a game you could keep drip feeding content for quite a long time as it has incredible replayability. It's one of only a handful of games that I have accumulated hundreds of hours playing, but there's still races I haven't even touched yet.

One of the stupider things GW has done was to kill WHFB a short while before TWW1 came out. There would have been sooo many people would have been inspired by the video game to buy some minis only to find out the table top game had been killed and many of the models were no longer available.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/31 16:52:07


Post by: Eumerin


AllSeeingSkink wrote:

One of the stupider things GW has done was to kill WHFB a short while before TWW1 came out. There would have been sooo many people would have been inspired by the video game to buy some minis only to find out the table top game had been killed and many of the models were no longer available.



GW never seems to pay much attention to what's been licensed aside from making the occasional nod here and there (for ex., the occasional pic of a painted Blood Ravens model). That was a mis-calculation in this case. But given the quality of most of the licensed video game content, it's usually a good move.

As for CA licensing AoS - I suspect that they would do just fine with the license. People will buy it because they like Total War, and they like what CA did with the previous GW property that they had (i.e. Warhammer). One of the things that I noted when the game was still in pre-release was that a lot of the people excited about the game really seemed to know very little about the setting. That would suggest that while most of the players had heard of it, and probably seen some spectacular miniatures, they'd never actually played the tabletop game. Given that, I suspect that a Total War: AoS game would sell just fine.

However, such a thing is still quite a ways out at this point. We're not even sure whether we've seen the initial teaser for the third and final Warhammer game. Warhammer 2 was released in September of 2017. Given that, the final DLC will be released at least three and a half years later. Assuming a similar life cycle for Warhammer 3, we're still more than four - and possibly five - years away from Warhammer 3's final release. An AoS game is still a long ways off for the players.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/31 16:59:42


Post by: Overread


The Warhammer games are like the Lord of the Rings films - its made to roll one into the next. So unless something went really wrong it won't be 3 or 4 years until Warhammer 3. It will be fairly soon after the last DLC - 1 year or so I would estimate. I wouldn't think they'd leave it years and years when the games roll into each other.

Eg Warhammer 1 was released in 2016; Warhammer 2 was released in 2017. If anything we've already had the abnormal years long gap since 2018.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/31 17:28:29


Post by: Eumerin


 Overread wrote:
The Warhammer games are like the Lord of the Rings films - its made to roll one into the next. So unless something went really wrong it won't be 3 or 4 years until Warhammer 3. It will be fairly soon after the last DLC - 1 year or so I would estimate. I wouldn't think they'd leave it years and years when the games roll into each other.

Eg Warhammer 1 was released in 2016; Warhammer 2 was released in 2017. If anything we've already had the abnormal years long gap since 2018.


You misunderstood me. What I meant is that the LAST DLC release for Warhammer 3 is still a long ways off, much like the upcoming last DLC for Warhammer 2 will be released probably three and a half years after Warhammer 2 was released. And a hypothetical AoS game won't come until after that.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/31 17:32:59


Post by: Overread


Ahh yes I did missunderstand sorry.

I do agree we are a long ways off an AoS title. If anything after Warhammer I'd be crossing my fingers that the next big game is Medieval 3. What ever it is it will certainly be in planning during Warhammer 3 development. CA is pretty good at simply keeping their staff on and having rolling products so as your creative and design and concept people are no longer needed as much for one game they move onto the next game in the list.


Even their Saga games, whilst often not being as popular, work really well for CA retaining staff and keeping them busy just on a smaller project that profits or markets (eg Troy) and then goes on to ensure that they don't lose staff or spend money on staff who are doing nothing.



One big question will be if/when CA decides to update their engine. Whilst its not a fun game the "Epic Battle Simulator" team appears to be pushing mass battle systems quite a lot. It would be really great to see CA break out with a new engine or a heavy revision that supports bigger armies and more intensive battles. New control systems; new engine; new means ot organise and such. Heck we saw in warhammer 2 where they pushed it with the lab option to let players mess around .


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/01/31 17:58:51


Post by: Eumerin


 Overread wrote:

Whilst its not a fun game the "Epic Battle Simulator" team appears to be pushing mass battle systems quite a lot.


Incidentally, EBS is free until tomorrow.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/01 10:59:10


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Eumerin wrote:
As for CA licensing AoS - I suspect that they would do just fine with the license. People will buy it because they like Total War, and they like what CA did with the previous GW property that they had (i.e. Warhammer). One of the things that I noted when the game was still in pre-release was that a lot of the people excited about the game really seemed to know very little about the setting. That would suggest that while most of the players had heard of it, and probably seen some spectacular miniatures, they'd never actually played the tabletop game. Given that, I suspect that a Total War: AoS game would sell just fine.


I tend to think it's more the other way, with Warhammer fans being drawn to Total War rather than Total War fans just buying it because it's a Total War. My thoughts lean that way because my understanding is no TW game prior to Warhammer had such popularity.

If your observation was that a lot of the people excited about the game knew very little about the setting, my thoughts would be...

1. A lot of people who have played Warhammer don't really know a lot about the background either (not on this forum maybe, but out in the wild where less... "intense" fans tend to live, people often only know the background to their own army and little else, personally it took me years to learn anything about certain armies because no one in my group played those armies).

2. Where was that observation taken? If it was on the Total War forums, I'd suggest the sample was biased toward Total War fans, not Warhammer fans.

3. I can't imagine you observed enough folks to get a decent cross-section of the purchasing community.

But hey, anything's possible without sufficient data. Another option is maybe folk came across from 40k or the DoW games and knew of Warhammer but never played it.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/01 20:01:36


Post by: Eumerin


Anything's possible, and my sample locations might have been skewed. But I'll also note that TW wasn't the first time someone attempted to bring Warhammer mass combat to the computer. There were the two games with you playing an Empire mercenary commander, and a later game with you playing as a chaos champion (iirc). Neither of those games had the same level of success the Total War version has had.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/01 20:20:32


Post by: Mr Morden


A Time of Legends Total War would - I think work well. Stuff like the

War of Wengeance
Nagash vs the nations of Nekahara
The Sundering
even Sigmar (or another leader of the twelve tribes) building the Empire.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/01 20:58:11


Post by: Voss


So a second video has come, with the Piper constellation (Autumn, 'trickster' figure, those born under it are considered to be leaders or betrayers... or both). Given that Grungi's Baldric is a 'martial' constellation, this may be some flagging for chaos gods.

Gives more weight to Warhammer 3 announcement, rather than a release date

Another video and constellation will be coming.
Though not necessarily tomorrow since the line at the end is apparently 'We _shan't_ see the third constellation tomorrow, I'm sure of it.' But then again, this astronomer seems to be a bit of an idiot.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/02 01:59:09


Post by: Eumerin


Voss wrote:

Another video and constellation will be coming.
Though not necessarily tomorrow since the line at the end is apparently 'We _shan't_ see the third constellation tomorrow, I'm sure of it.' But then again, this astronomer seems to be a bit of an idiot.


I got the impression that his comment was more a stubborn insistence that nothing important was going on, and that the stars weren't saying anything important. Or in other words, deep down, he already knows what the third constellation will be. But he's refusing to admit that the things he's seeing are in any way significant.

Anyway, we'll find out shortly!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/02 12:44:50


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Another video with another 2 star signs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfzbKB8W6_I

The Drummer is maybe Slaanesh?

Rhya's Cauldron is mercy/death/creation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eumerin wrote:
Anything's possible, and my sample locations might have been skewed. But I'll also note that TW wasn't the first time someone attempted to bring Warhammer mass combat to the computer. There were the two games with you playing an Empire mercenary commander, and a later game with you playing as a chaos champion (iirc). Neither of those games had the same level of success the Total War version has had.


You mean Mark of Chaos? I'd say it wasn't a great game. The single player wasn't really mass battle, nor was it terribly good, the multiplayer had potential but I only ever played it LAN with a mate, I don't even remember if you could play it over the internet. It's the sort of game that would struggle to reach a critical mass to be a good multiplayer option.

Obviously I'd say a game needs to not suck in addition to being Warhammer to really take off, lol. Also I don’t think those games received a whole lot of advertising, if you want to draw on the decades of Warhammer fans that aren’t actively buying models anymore, they do need to know about the game’s existence.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/02 17:21:41


Post by: Voss


You know, if this does turn out to be a lead up to a warhammer 3 announcement, I hope they're smart enough not to give a hard date. They had a lot of problems getting three kingdoms out, and the up industry in general and the state of the world just isn't conducive to meeting arbitrary dates anymore.

---
And another already:
'Ursunn, the God-Bear'. So... seriously Kislev (shock!).

All this on Geheimnisnacht Eve, huh? [For those that don't know, Geheimnisnacht is basically Halloween, and Morrsleib (the warpstone moon) is usually in ascendance and crazy things and rituals are afoot all over]

Something Evil tomorrow.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/02 22:39:41


Post by: Olthannon


Maybe it's just a chaos update and they're putting in kislev as the other lord pack. That would be damn sweet.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/02 23:33:23


Post by: Eumerin


 Olthannon wrote:
Maybe it's just a chaos update and they're putting in kislev as the other lord pack. That would be damn sweet.


Warhammer 3 will be focused on the Chaos Powers. Given that, I would be very surprised if the very last release before Warhammer 3 had a Chaos focus.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 00:09:11


Post by: Commander Cain


Very excited for this game, I have an unnatural number of hours put into TWW2 and I am sure that the new one will far surpass it.

Oddly enough I am not all that interested in the races that we will end up seeing, Chaos Demons never really caught my attention, Kislev and Chaos Dwarves could be fun though.

I am most interested in seeing a complete world map (CA would be crazy not to have that), siege battles will hopefully have a good rework, and I wouldn't say no to a more robust diplomacy system with some bits taken from Three Kingdoms as I have heard great stuff about it.

Also even if this is going to be the last Warhammer game from CA I would predict that it would have an incredibly long life and so many updates for years to come. Heck, TWW2 is still going strong and the modding community have blown it out of the park and will undoubtedly do the same for the next installment.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 00:40:21


Post by: Overread


Warhammer TW 2 has the entire RTS fantasy market to itself. The last big fantasy RTS game was Warcraft 3, which was freaking decades ago now. Since then RTS has been on a general decline and there haven't been any big fantasy games in that period to really shake things up. Sci-fi has a few good ones in that period, but fantasy has slipped.

Right now CA has that market entirely to itself and they've produced an RTS with the most diverse factions and number of factions that you won't see until you go way back to 2d sprites and the likes of Warlords Battlecry.

It's very much a landmark series of games and the completed 1-2-3 game is going to be VAST in scope and likely remain unbeaten for content in a very very very long time.


I think this is why, of all their games, Warhammer 2 (and 1 before that) has maintained such a high volume of active players. Even if Three Kingdoms outsold it vastly at speed; it still maintains less concurrent players - heck I suspect in part because it has more competition; even in the west there's several 3kingdoms games of various kinds and in the Chinese market even more. Even if they aren't "better" they still compete and have fanbases of their own.

Right now Warhammer 2 is competing with - basically nothing in the fantasy RTS market. Blizzard could have unseated it a bit if their Warcraft 3 remaster hadn't basically overpromised and underdelivered and also shot the feet out from the classic versions modding community.





That said I don't think we'll have a full map; not unless CA is going to go full on and make Araby (could be done as they did have a warmaster army); Cathay, Nippon, Amazons, and the others that I forget. Basically there's a lot of land still untouched that GW never got too. CA could stretch into those regions - but I wouldn't bet on it. If we are lucky we might get one like they did the Vampire Pirates for Warhammer 2


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 02:00:05


Post by: Voss


 Olthannon wrote:
Maybe it's just a chaos update and they're putting in kislev as the other lord pack. That would be damn sweet.


Kislev would be a race pack, and they've stated that they aren't doing any more of those for 2.

Commander Cain wrote:I am most interested in seeing a complete world map (CA would be crazy not to have that), siege battles will hopefully have a good rework, and I wouldn't say no to a more robust diplomacy system with some bits taken from Three Kingdoms as I have heard great stuff about it.


A complete world map is really unlikely. It would honestly be crazy to do it- just too big with too much dead space and too many factions to fill in that were never really done for Warhammer ever (beyond a unit or two that went away with 3rd edition). A couple non-GW factions with lots of dead space that can barely interact with the others just isn't worthwhile. Likely they'll just go north from the current mortal empires border (eshin and the dragon isles) and stick to the Dark Lands, the edge of the Ogre Kingdoms and into the chaos wastes past where the current chaos invasion spawns. That corner pocket is currently so far away its already hard for factions down there to interact with the main areas of interest. Going further east is a non-starter.

Revised siege battles are a maybe.

The most likely is revised diplomacy, built on both 3K and Troy.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 15:11:18


Post by: Overread


It Comes!!





Far beyond the world and its petty wars there exists a dimension of pure, malevolent magic: The Realm of Chaos. It is a terrible place, incomprehensible to the mortal mind. It whispers promises of power, but to behold it is to be seduced by it. To relinquish your soul to it. To become it.

The four Ruinous Powers rule over this place, ever seeking to slip their bonds and engulf the world in a tide of daemonic corruption. Nurgle, the plague god; Slaanesh, the lord of excess; Tzeentch, the changer of ways; and Khorne, the god of blood and slaughter.

On the border between the worlds, two mighty kingdoms stand sentinel: the stern warriors of Kislev and the vast empire of Grand Cathay. But each is beset by its own trials, and now both have cause to cross the threshold and send their armies into the Realm of Chaos.

The world stands on a precipice. A single push will plunge it into cataclysm.

And there is one who schemes to achieve just that, an ancient figure who desires nothing less than to wield supreme power. But to succeed, he will need a champion…

The coming conflict will engulf all. Will you conquer your daemons? Or command them?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 15:12:08


Post by: Olthannon


Warhammer 3 it is and man I am excited for it.

I'd like to see naval battles similar to Rome 2 but better.


I'm extremely keen to play as Kislev.

Just need to find out more.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 15:14:47


Post by: Not Online!!!


Holly molly the animators must've worked overtime!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 15:15:49


Post by: Overread


Just added a marketing quote too - CATHAY is a launch faction!!! That is faction in the core warhammer 3 game


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 15:30:36


Post by: trexmeyer


Cathay is completely unexpected, at least as a launch faction, but no Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs makes me sand. I don't really give two figs for Kislev or Chaos Daemons unless Valkia the Bloody is a LL (or if Norsca gets a rework as part of the WH3 launch).


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 15:41:55


Post by: Not Online!!!


Well cathay, ogres kingdoms, kislev and chaos daemons might aswell be core, i'd hope for Chaos dwarfs aswell but alas.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 16:49:46


Post by: Commander Cain


Awesome, didn't expect Cathay to be a base faction, I thought they would come much later so I am pleasantly surprised!

I would assume that either ogre kingdoms or chaos dwarves would be the pre order incentive now we know more with chaos dwarves being more likely given that CA already have animations for them courtesy of the regular dwarves.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 17:17:03


Post by: Olthannon


Just saw on WarCom about Cathay and the fact that they fed the artwork for Kislev to CA from the the new Old World game.

The fact that Cathay are a base faction is fascinating. I'm very much looking forward to how they go about it.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 17:20:10


Post by: Eumerin


EEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Neat! The announcement trailer for the third game! And Cathay! Wow! I did not expect that! Looking forward to it! I do wonder if its appearence is due to Three Kingdoms - both the fact that there's been research by CA on Chinese troops, and the fact that Three Kingdoms got a lot of attention in China? Either way, I'm looking forward to it!

I'm also curious how Kislev is going to be handled. In both Warhammer 1 and Mortal Empires, Kislev is a speed bump whose fall is all but guaranteed (or else there wouldn't be much of a Chaos invasion). Given that, I wonder how it will be treated in the full three game version of Mortal Empires?

On another note, since there's apparently one more Warhammer 2 DLC left to go and it still hasn't been announced yet, I wonder if it will be a pre-order bonus for Warhammer 3 like Norsca was for 2?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 17:33:07


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


"Regular readers of Warhammer Community will know that the Games Workshop creative studio is hard at work on Warhammer The Old World, a project that will see the return of the world-that-was to the tabletop, and their designs have fed directly into the development of Total War: Warhammer III."

HAHAHA I knew it

Okay, well back to my TW2 campaign....got to get ready for this!

Come on Chaos Dwarfs!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 18:24:48


Post by: Voss


OK, I was apparently utterly wrong about Cathay, still shocked by that. [The cynic in me is wondering if its about trying to capture some of the Three Kingdoms buyers and/or the Chinese market, and signs are pointing to yes, since the languages listed are just English and Chinese]

There is a map (and a creepy guy) in the trailer at 2:49. Three figures- one for chaos, one kislev, one cathay, and the map shows some of the Cathay provinces in the game's campaign map style. Shows Nan-Gau, Shang-Yang and a few other things. The Kislev figure is sitting on top of words- '<something> Skulls'

It looks far more North than Cathay used to on old Warhammer world maps, pushed into where the eastern steppes used to be above the Ogre Kingdoms.

Anyway. Given that Skullcrushers are promenient in the trailer I wonder if they're actually doing Kislev, Cathay, Daemons and Mortal Chaos as the 'four factions' for the base game. Three feels like it would be disappointing, and I can't see six (with a distinct faction for each god). FAQ suggests they're doing exactly this. Basically two human factions and 4 god factions.

---
FAQ:
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-iii-faq/

There is an unrevealed early adopter bonus (currently planned: a race pack)
Languages are just English and Chinese
There will be a combined map as DLC. My guess now is it will be the current TW2 ME map, and cut North East from the Dragon Isles, avoiding Ind, Khuresh, and a chunk of Cathay (or they shifted the whole country north)
Definitely steam and epic, but mortal empires and stuff from 1 and 2 are not cross platform compatible.

WHAT RACES WILL BE AVAILABLE IN TOTAL WAR: WARHAMMER III AT LAUNCH?
We are excited to be able to confirm that Total War: WARHAMMER III contains a wider selection of individual races than any previous Total War: WARHAMMER core title.

Deep within the realms of Chaos the four Ruinous Powers of Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Khorne prepare for war and two mighty kingdoms stand sentinel: the stern warriors of Kislev and the vast empire of Grand Cathay.

We can’t wait to start introducing you to the nine playable Legendary Lords that will lead these races into battle!

9 seems low if they're breaking chaos into 4 factions. 3 for kislev, 2 for cathay, 1 for each god?

Also: This is explicitly _NOT_ the End Times. Its still set around the reign of Karl Franz.
IS TOTAL WAR: WARHAMMER III GOING TO BE SET DURING THE END TIMES AND FEATURE STUFF FROM AGE OF SIGMAR?
No, as with Total War: WARHAMMER and Total War: WARHAMMER II, Total War: WARHAMMER III is set around the reign of Karl Franz. Our primary source is Warhammer Fantasy Battles 8th Edition, although we have and will continue to use older editions for inspiration where appropriate.


There is another Warhammer 2 DLC coming


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 18:30:47


Post by: Overread


It sounds like Chaos will be 1 faction with 4 god themes. It remains to be seen if that's 1 per campaign or if you can mix and match the gods - with the likely cost being that cities have to be dedicated to one or the other (so it will likely take a fair while to get 4 fully developed cities, one to each god).

Remember in the Old World Chaos Demons is one army not 4 like it is in AoS and for a greater part of Old World history Chaos Demons were mostly allies to Chaos armies (ergo what we now call Slaves to Darkness).




As for Cathay yes I can see GW and CA wanting to make more inroads to China, its a vast market. I suspect if Old World had hung around GW would eventually have done Cathay


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 18:31:01


Post by: Mr Morden


Lots of awesomness in that trailer

The Tzarina doing her best angry Elsa
Bear Cavalry
Deamons of Khorne

and.... Cathay -







Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 18:39:03


Post by: Voss


Also the music.
And the Winged Hussars (not on bears). And the Skull Crushers.
And the Great Unclean One was not a sight I needed while eating lunch
The bloodletters were great too. Actually something to be afraid of.

You know, it will be interesting to see how they handle LLs and lords in general for chaos. On the one hand, restricting greater daemons to a generic lord would be awful, but... who are going to be commanding them? Legendary Lords aren't an issue, but generic ones would be.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 18:40:38


Post by: Mr Morden


It is a good day


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 18:49:36


Post by: Voss


Also there are wallpapers of the kislev vs khorne picture (from the old world thread) on Total War access (where various special unit downloads have lived over the years). A variety of crops in different sizes, most centering on the Tzarina vs the Bloodthirster.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 19:56:28


Post by: nels1031


Cathay is a genuine surprise. Guess Three Kingdoms gave them a good base to build fantasy focused units from.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 20:15:43


Post by: Hecaton


Tzarina looks like a badass. Not a fan of splitting up the Chaos rosters by god but we'll see how they implement it. Cathay is a welcome surprise.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 20:37:27


Post by: Nerak


Here’s the announcement: https://www.creative-assembly.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-iii-announced

Races will be:
Khorne
Nurgle
Slaanesh
Tzeentch
Kislev
Cathay
+one more unspecified pre-order race.

So last one could be chaos dwarfs, Ogre kingdoms, Hogogoblins, ind or Nippon I guess. I suppose it could also be Araby but that would be very surprising and strange.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 20:44:07


Post by: Voss


Summary from the steam page:
Pre-purchase to get an additional free Race Pack for Total War: WARHAMMER III.
More details coming soon.

Far beyond the world and its petty wars there exists a dimension of pure, malevolent magic: The Realm of Chaos. It is a terrible place, incomprehensible to the mortal mind. It whispers promises of power, but to behold it is to be seduced by it. To relinquish your soul to it. To become it.

The four Ruinous Powers rule over this place, ever seeking to slip their bonds and engulf the world in a tide of daemonic corruption. Nurgle, the plague god; Slaanesh, the lord of excess; Tzeentch, the changer of ways; and Khorne, the god of blood and slaughter.

On the border between the worlds, two mighty kingdoms stand sentinel: the stern warriors of Kislev and the vast empire of Grand Cathay. But each is beset by its own trials, and now both have cause to cross the threshold and send their armies into the Realm of Chaos.

The world stands on a precipice. A single push will plunge it into cataclysm.

And there is one who schemes to achieve just that, an ancient figure who desires nothing less than to wield supreme power. But to succeed, he will need a champion…

The coming conflict will engulf all. Will you conquer your daemons? Or command them?


Ancient one who schemes: Be'lakor?

----

FAQ also specifies that the 'pre-order' race pack is also 'early adopter'
As with our previous Early Adopter bonuses, it will also be gifted to anyone who pre orders or buys the game in the first week after release, so you will still be able to claim the Early Adopter bonus for free up to a week after the game has launched.

So you can still get the bonus after reviews and they'll drop embargos on reviews and lets plays before launch.
WILL TOTAL WAR: WARHAMMER III REVIEWS LAND BEFORE THE GAME IS RELEASED?
Yes – as with all recent Total War titles, our review embargo will drop before launch, allowing you time to decide whether to pre order and get the Early Adopter bonus if you’d like.


I'd give odds to the early adopter race pack being Ogres. They're right there in the middle, on the map.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 20:57:38


Post by: jeff white


Tzeentch?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 20:58:33


Post by: Iracundus


Interesting...this would be like the first time Cathay has been actually delved into in detail. Wonder which era(s) of China they will be borrowing the most from, and where the fantasy elements will come in. I wonder too whether there will be any official retrofitting of Cathayan rules into GW's Warhammer or AOS.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 21:06:30


Post by: cody.d.


Still keen to actually see the state of ogres. Will they be fleshing out the faction? Or acting as mercs for the other surrounding races? Damn curious as they were my main faction most of Pre AOS.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 21:08:56


Post by: Voss


According to the Warhammer Community article, the GW studio worked with CA to develop Cathay for this game. [In the video, Mark Bedford literally says 'seeing what CA has done with my concepts.' Andy Hoare mentions spending months on this stuff.

So it'd be weird if they didn't do something with it at some point, though obviously the practical side of things (why cathay would care about the other side of the world, basically, and how they would get there) is always an open question.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 21:14:10


Post by: Iracundus


Voss wrote:
According to the Warhammer Community article, the GW studio worked with CA to develop Cathay for this game.

So it'd be weird if they didn't do something with it at some point, though obviously the practical side of things (why cathay would care about the other side of the world, basically, and how they would get there) is always an open question.


The same reason how/why Lizardmen could go everywhere despite being in the fantasy equivalent of the Amazon rainforest. Magic and to chase the magical McGuffin.

China reached into Central Asia with its armies and trade, so that easily establishes potential conflict with the Ogres, and Chaos (since Marauders are supposed to broadly cover all the "barbarians" ranging from Norsca all the way to the steppes of fantasy Asia).

The interesting thing will be the playstyle, and how they will make it different yet balanced with the human playstyle of the Empire. For example, I have heard it argued in the past for people to use the Empire rules to represent Cathay as both are human empires with baseline humans and some tech like cannons.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 21:27:20


Post by: Olthannon


I wonder how many people have been trawling the internet today to figure out all they can about Cathay?

I'm sure google search data would show a massive spike in that


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 21:28:57


Post by: SkavenLord


Very surprised to see Cathay and Kislev. As many have said, Cathay has not had a tabletop presence nevermind a video game appearance. I recall theories that Kislev would be involved, but it seemed strange to shift this one city into its own faction.

I'm actually rather confident on the choice of factions. Vampire Coast was basically a footnote stretched to a full faction with four LLs. It had its own identity and its own way of playing.

Hoping for Chaos Dwarves and Ogres, but I wonder if Araby might be included as well.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 21:32:32


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Ancient one looking for a champion? And Chaos Daemons happen to have 5 LL slots? Well, that's gotta be Be'lakor, right?

And Cathay. Holy gak. Did not see that coming. All hail the Jade Dragon Emperor, I guess (he better be a dragon!).

 SkavenLord wrote:
Hoping for Chaos Dwarves and Ogres, but I wonder if Araby might be included as well.
I think we're pretty safe with Ogres, and a decent chance of getting Chaos Dwarfs.

Araby however, no. They're right in the middle of the map currently, and TW3 is taking us east. Waaaay east, given that we're getting Cathay.

I do hope that we get Araby some day, as they're a big faction that, unlike Ind or Nippon, aren't off the edge of the map. They're in the centre of it. All the locations in Araby are places you can go/conquer in TW2, yet there's no Araby faction. Very frustrating.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 21:40:31


Post by: Voss


cody.d. wrote:
Still keen to actually see the state of ogres. Will they be fleshing out the faction? Or acting as mercs for the other surrounding races? Damn curious as they were my main faction most of Pre AOS.


Almost certainly their own faction, and most likely candidate for the preorder race. 'Mercs' aren't really an approach CA has done with Warhammer, barring maybe Gotrek & Felix (though I'd call that a stretch).
Given where the game 3 map is focused, not including them would be odd. Though I suspect like TK and Vampire Coast, their goals won't align with the focus of the campaign for the base races (both of those ignored the 'Vortex race').
But the mountains of the ogres are basically the central southern area of the (paper) map snippet we're shown, between the Kislev and Cathayan figures.

Having them in the game at the start gives an unpredictable threat to deal with rather than turtling up as Kislev or Cathay, and just focusing all the attention northwards.

I really want to see the base game map. Does it include the Darklands? Hell Pit? The NE corner of the Empire? The mountains with Azhag and Ungrim? After warhammer 2 its clear that CA is willing to contort the map somewhat (especially for Mortal Empires), but how far will this go for the base game?
---

@Skavenlord- Kislev isn't one city. They're a full country (though not as big as the Poland, Russia and general Slavic people they vaguely represent). Currently they have 8 or 9 provinces on the Mortal Empires map. I'd expect to see all of them (and maybe a couple more, considering the base game maps are zoomed in compared to the Mortal Empires map), as part of the base game map for TW3.

---
HBMC wrote:Ancient one looking for a champion? And Chaos Daemons happen to have 5 LL slots? Well, that's gotta be Be'lakor, right?

I'm thinking he'll be around as the instigator (and maybe final challenge), but not playable. What leads you to believe they get 5 LL slots? I saw 9 in total, but no breakdown by faction. I was thinking 3/2/4 (1 for each god). At least to start with.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 22:00:46


Post by: cody.d.


Voss wrote:
cody.d. wrote:
Still keen to actually see the state of ogres. Will they be fleshing out the faction? Or acting as mercs for the other surrounding races? Damn curious as they were my main faction most of Pre AOS.


Almost certainly their own faction, and most likely candidate for the preorder race. 'Mercs' aren't really an approach CA has done with Warhammer, barring maybe Gotrek & Felix (though I'd call that a stretch).
Given where the game 3 map is focused, not including them would be odd. Though I suspect like TK and Vampire Coast, their goals won't align with the focus of the campaign for the base races (both of those ignored the 'Vortex race').
But the mountains of the ogres are basically the central southern area of the (paper) map snippet we're shown, between the Kislev and Cathayan figures.

Having them in the game at the start gives an unpredictable threat to deal with rather than turtling up as Kislev or Cathay, and just focusing all the attention northwards.

I really want to see the base game map. Does it include the Darklands? Hell Pit? The NE corner of the Empire? The mountains with Azhag and Ungrim? After warhammer 2 its clear that CA is willing to contort the map somewhat (especially for Mortal Empires), but how far will this go for the base game?
---

@Skavenlord- Kislev isn't one city. They're a full country (though not as big as the Poland, Russia and general Slavic people they vaguely represent). Currently they have 8 or 9 provinces on the Mortal Empires map. I'd expect to see all of them (and maybe a couple more, considering the base game maps are zoomed in compared to the Mortal Empires map), as part of the base game map for TW3.

---
HBMC wrote:Ancient one looking for a champion? And Chaos Daemons happen to have 5 LL slots? Well, that's gotta be Be'lakor, right?

I'm thinking he'll be around as the instigator (and maybe final challenge), but not playable. What leads you to believe they get 5 LL slots? I saw 9 in total, but no breakdown by faction. I was thinking 3/2/4 (1 for each god). At least to start with.


The issue with Ogres as a faction is the fact that they have so few unit options on the tabletop. Will they be splitting options into multiple units? Like maneaters being not just one option but those from cathay, araby, empire, chaos being their own selections with different abilities? Still super keen regardless to watch those gluttonous buggers storming through the smaller races.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 22:30:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Voss wrote:
What leads you to believe they get 5 LL slots? I saw 9 in total, but no breakdown by faction. I was thinking 3/2/4 (1 for each god). At least to start with.
Everyone else has started with 2 LLs.

Chaos isn't because then there would be 12 LLs in the base game (2 for Kislev, 2 for Cathay, and then 2 each for Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch). That's too many to start with, so perhaps the 5th is there to let people play 'combined' Chaos Daemon armies, rather than being restricted to only one. Be'lakor fits that mould very easily.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 22:45:01


Post by: Voss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
What leads you to believe they get 5 LL slots? I saw 9 in total, but no breakdown by faction. I was thinking 3/2/4 (1 for each god). At least to start with.
Everyone else has started with 2 LLs.

Chaos isn't because then there would be 12 LLs in the base game (2 for Kislev, 2 for Cathay, and then 2 each for Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch). That's too many to start with, so perhaps the 5th is there to let people play 'combined' Chaos Daemon armies, rather than being restricted to only one. Be'lakor fits that mould very easily.


That's true. I get a bit lost in the utter _glut_ of LLs they've added to the game 2 base races (six of each, sheesh, and yes I'm presuming DE will get their sixth with the last DLC/FLC) and forgot they started with just a pair each.
But... I do think that if they were planning a 'combined' daemon army, they'd advertise it as a 'seventh' faction.

cody.d wrote:The issue with Ogres as a faction is the fact that they have so few unit options on the tabletop. Will they be splitting options into multiple units? Like maneaters being not just one option but those from cathay, araby, empire, chaos being their own selections with different abilities? Still super keen regardless to watch those gluttonous buggers storming through the smaller races.


Well, they're not terribly afraid to expand into Forge World units and/or just make stuff up (Norsca & Vampire Coast, for example, and obviously Kislev and Cathay are going to feature a lot of never-before-seen stuff).
Sometimes, yes, units are just weapon variations deckhands with guns/bombs/blunderbuss, units with or without halberds, etc.

They also have started with modest rosters and then expanded with DLC. On the negative side of things the chaos warriors and beastmen both started with limited/incomplete rosters and unfortunately haven't (yet) been expanded.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 22:51:40


Post by: cody.d.


Seeing some Rhinox riders would be fairly fun. Though the scale of ogres in general is going to be adding quite a lot to TWW3. Having cav that big will be pretty insane.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 23:03:35


Post by: SkavenLord


Voss wrote:
They also have started with modest rosters and then expanded with DLC. On the negative side of things the chaos warriors and beastmen both started with limited/incomplete rosters and unfortunately haven't (yet) been expanded.


Were the Bloodcrushers part of the first game? It’s been a while, but I don’t recall seeing them in-game before. Hopefully their inclusion in the trailer implies some kind of WoC update.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 23:07:03


Post by: Argive


Really stoked for Cathay!

Absolutely stoked for playing as khorne deamons!

I wonder how the campaign will look for demons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SkavenLord wrote:
Voss wrote:
They also have started with modest rosters and then expanded with DLC. On the negative side of things the chaos warriors and beastmen both started with limited/incomplete rosters and unfortunately haven't (yet) been expanded.


Were the Bloodcrushers part of the first game? It’s been a while, but I don’t recall seeing them in-game before. Hopefully their inclusion in the trailer implies some kind of WoC update.


No bloodcrushers. Only monster cav in the game is demigryphs knights. And they wreck face.

I think Game 3 will be Monster cav galore :(

I really hope they balance it out with regiments.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 23:25:07


Post by: H.B.M.C.


And those weren't Bloodcrushers. They were Skullcrushers.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/03 23:37:01


Post by: Argive


I know them as the juggernaut riding dudes..


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 00:35:19


Post by: Voss


 SkavenLord wrote:
Voss wrote:
They also have started with modest rosters and then expanded with DLC. On the negative side of things the chaos warriors and beastmen both started with limited/incomplete rosters and unfortunately haven't (yet) been expanded.


Were the Bloodcrushers part of the first game? It’s been a while, but I don’t recall seeing them in-game before. Hopefully their inclusion in the trailer implies some kind of WoC update.


Nope. WoC were very minimal and have continued to be minimal. It looks like they're going for god specific armies here. The presence of Skullcrushers (chaos warriors on juggers) with Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster implies that they're going for god themed armies rather than specifically the Chaos Daemons army book.

I'm not sure they'll do much with WoC beyond a legacy faction. They finally made the chaos invasion optional with the last DLC, and Sigvald could easily be bumped to a Slaanesh roster.
Depending on how they do things, Archaeon could be a 'rival' in this game for 'championhood' since most of his quests already involve getting the artifacts he needed for being Everchosen. On the other hand, WoC could be a good target for an update- as is, they're pretty bland, and the general strategy is 'spam X and just roll forward. X can be different if you're running Kholek.

I still hope the last Warhammer 2 DLC hits beastmen. They still lack units from their actual army book, which is absurd.

If they do it right, god specific armies could be a lot better than trying to overhaul Chaos Warriors into something interesting, but it depends where exactly they're taking the base campaign.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 00:35:40


Post by: CMLR


Floodgates open.

Literally every single minor faction is fair play now. I'd like to see Indi weretigers.

This makes me exceted because CA and GW have been working together and this might mean that Cathay is coming to TOW, just like they are basing Kislev on the current showed art.

Shout out to Rotigus. Wanna know how the Chaosreal you got here if you have just existed for less than 5 years anyway.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 00:54:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 CMLR wrote:
Literally every single minor faction is fair play now. I'd like to see Indi weretigers.
Araby! They had a Warmaster army. They're perfect for this, and right in the middle of everything.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 01:43:33


Post by: Argive


Voss wrote:
 SkavenLord wrote:
Voss wrote:
They also have started with modest rosters and then expanded with DLC. On the negative side of things the chaos warriors and beastmen both started with limited/incomplete rosters and unfortunately haven't (yet) been expanded.


Were the Bloodcrushers part of the first game? It’s been a while, but I don’t recall seeing them in-game before. Hopefully their inclusion in the trailer implies some kind of WoC update.


Nope. WoC were very minimal and have continued to be minimal. It looks like they're going for god specific armies here. The presence of Skullcrushers (chaos warriors on juggers) with Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster implies that they're going for god themed armies rather than specifically the Chaos Daemons army book.

I'm not sure they'll do much with WoC beyond a legacy faction. They finally made the chaos invasion optional with the last DLC, and Sigvald could easily be bumped to a Slaanesh roster.
Depending on how they do things, Archaeon could be a 'rival' in this game for 'championhood' since most of his quests already involve getting the artifacts he needed for being Everchosen. On the other hand, WoC could be a good target for an update- as is, they're pretty bland, and the general strategy is 'spam X and just roll forward. X can be different if you're running Kholek.

I still hope the last Warhammer 2 DLC hits beastmen. They still lack units from their actual army book, which is absurd.

If they do it right, god specific armies could be a lot better than trying to overhaul Chaos Warriors into something interesting, but it depends where exactly they're taking the base campaign.


They could have done a mechanic similiar to blessed units for lizardmen. If you garner enough favour with certain god you can recruit specialist troops with the relvant mark. Some mods have marked units and extra units not found in vanila which actualy work quite well. And they are free.

I wonder if they will be running it on the same engine as WH2 or if they went next gen and did a new engine. I think the former coz unless they have some long term plan for more TW games it would be throwing a lot of monies away.

Im happy we are likely to start with cathay as faction and not DLC later down the line. Maybe get nippon as well as DLC. SO many possibilities.
Finaly something to look forward to. I actually need to finish up my imrik campaign. I was pretty much done... Would have been satisfied with nagarond ulthuan and lustria which im almost done taking. But reikland stabbed me in the back and dragged the order tide against me just as I was ready to call it finished. So I had Tyrion get the sword of khaine and go on a b-line rampage straight into the empire smashing all the armies Bretonia and empire threw against him. SOK anearion bloodline tyrion is bad ass... soloing 2-3 armies by himself is hela fun


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 01:51:40


Post by: Overread


I'd wager they might do it by major cities. Eg you dedicate a city to a specific Chaos God and can recruit their demonic units from that city into your army. With each god perhaps bringing bonuses of their own; creating an interesting dynamic of either maxing out one god in every city for an insane bonus in one area; or mix and matching your gods.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 01:59:15


Post by: Voss


 Argive wrote:

They could have done a mechanic similiar to blessed units for beastmen. If you garner enough favour with certain god you can recruit specialist troops with the relvant mark. Some mods have marked units and extra units not found in vanila which actualy work quite well. And they are free.

I wonder if they will be running it on the same engine as WH2 or if they went next gen and did a new engine. I think the former coz unless they have some long term plan for more TW games it would be throwing a lot of monies away.

I'd expect the same engine. I expect any systems changes will come right out of Troy (and 3K for diplomacy). Troy had several things that look like test mechanics, and that's honestly part of what the Saga games are for.
1- Different currencies (bronze, food, stone, wood and gold) and a slightly different approach to trade goods. I don't think we'll see the same type of currencies, but something slightly more complex could happen. Though hopefully with a lot of refinement, as trade in Troy was stupidly exploitable and broken. Beyond the pale of the TW series, even worse than the junk ancillary trading in three kingdoms.

2- Divine favor. Different levels of blessings for various gods that you have to keep up with rites and specific units, and unlocking specific hero types (which I can easily see being implemented for Greater Daemons, so you don't end up with a 20 stack of Bloodthirsters).

I'd expect the next big engine change for TW won't happen until their next game (whatever it is). As the third in a trilogy, this would be a good choice for a last hurrah, and they can do a couple years of DLC for it, and squeeze out another year or two of DLC for Troy and 3K before launching the Next Big Thing.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 02:03:51


Post by: Overread


It certainly won't be a new engine. CA had enough trouble porting Norsca to Warhammer 2 when they changed a few ways on how Norsca worked as a faction and basically had to delay their Warhammer 2 release for ages as they rebuilt the whole faction.

It will be the same engine so that CA can port all the Warhammer 1 and 2 races into 3 easily. If they used a new engine they'd like as not have to rebuild all the old factions and that would be a mammoth task ontop of the mammoth of making a new engine.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 03:00:22


Post by: Eumerin


Voss wrote:

I still hope the last Warhammer 2 DLC hits beastmen. They still lack units from their actual army book, which is absurd.


While pretty much everyone agrees that Beastmen need a lot of love, I'd be surprised if they get a redo before the third game is released. When the Wood Elves got their expansion, CA explained well in advance exactly how the new DLC would interact with the various content options that players had (i.e. players who had the second game but not the first game, and players who bought the new DLC but didn't own the original Wood Elf DLC). We knew all of that months before we knew any details about the DLC other than the fact it would include Wood Elves. We haven't heard anything similar regarding Beastmen. Given that, I doubt we're going to see a Beastmen overhaul before the third game arrives.

I'll also note that a Beastman DLC that does for them what the last DLC did for Wood Elves would also fit much more thematically with the third game.

Cathay is coming to TOW


More immediately, Cathay might be coming to Age of Sigmar.

I get a bit lost in the utter _glut_ of LLs they've added to the game 2 base races (six of each, sheesh, and yes I'm presuming DE will get their sixth with the last DLC/FLC) and forgot they started with just a pair each.


The Empire and the Dwarves could also use another LL each to match them up with their counterparts from the first game.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 03:01:48


Post by: chaos0xomega


Voss wrote:

Well, they're not terribly afraid to expand into Forge World units and/or just make stuff up (Norsca & Vampire Coast, for example


Lol, none of that was made up, most if not all of it existed in some form in older editions of the game (though Vampire Coast was only conceptually hinted at in the past, we never saw any artwork or miniatures for their units).


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 05:36:24


Post by: Voss


chaos0xomega wrote:
Voss wrote:

Well, they're not terribly afraid to expand into Forge World units and/or just make stuff up (Norsca & Vampire Coast, for example


Lol, none of that was made up, most if not all of it existed in some form in older editions of the game (though Vampire Coast was only conceptually hinted at in the past, we never saw any artwork or miniatures for their units).


Yeah.... with no artwork or minis, many of their units (even an LL) were... not created for the DLC?
Ok then.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 07:30:15


Post by: Eldarain


The crazy shipwreck construct thing appeared in Monstrous Arcanum I think.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 11:37:37


Post by: Overread


I believe it also had a model from Forgeworld at one stage and the Vampire Pirate army in itself appeared in White Dwarf.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 12:42:42


Post by: Mr Morden


@Skavenlord- Kislev isn't one city. They're a full country (though not as big as the Poland, Russia and general Slavic people they vaguely represent). Currently they have 8 or 9 provinces on the Mortal Empires map. I'd expect to see all of them (and maybe a couple more, considering the base game maps are zoomed in compared to the Mortal Empires map), as part of the base game map for TW3.


Kislev is also the captial city of Kislev

So much cool stuff. Chaos Dwarfs?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 13:19:34


Post by: chaos0xomega


Voss wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Voss wrote:

Well, they're not terribly afraid to expand into Forge World units and/or just make stuff up (Norsca & Vampire Coast, for example


Lol, none of that was made up, most if not all of it existed in some form in older editions of the game (though Vampire Coast was only conceptually hinted at in the past, we never saw any artwork or miniatures for their units).


Yeah.... with no artwork or minis, many of their units (even an LL) were... not created for the DLC?
Ok then.


Uhh... most if not all the units existed, they were published as an army list in White Dwarf 306 in June 2005: https://warhammer-fantasy-battle.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire_Coast

What, you think Creative Assembly just made them up???

Likewise Kislev had a WHFB army list and miniatures range and an even more complete Warmaster army list and miniatures range. Norsca you have to go back to the 90s and like 3rd edition WHFB for their army lists and minis, a bit before my time in the hobby, but they too existed.

Kislev is also the captial city of Kislev


Isn't Praag the capital city of Kislev?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 13:22:36


Post by: Mr Morden


Nope Praag is one of the cities but the capital is also called Kislev

The first known settlement was a small trading colony set up on the banks of the River Urskoy around the year 500 IC and known as Pelzburg. It enjoyed some prosperity in its dealings with the roving tribesmen, migrating Gospodars, and a few hardy merchants from the Empire. It was later renamed Dorogo, in honour of a great war leader grew to become a flourishing city of trade, establishing links with the Dwarfs.

That city was razed to the ground when Khan-Queen Miska the Slaughterer led a great migration of Gospodars came over the Worlds Edge Mountains. Aware of the importance of its location, she immediately began rebuilding, renaming it Kislev before embarking on a long and bloody campaign of unification. it was completed by her daughter, the Khan-Queen Shoika, who took on the title of Tzarina after its completion. Its founding also marked the beginning of the Kislevite calendar, year 1 /1524 IC.

Once again the city grew and prospered, forming trade links with many other nations, even stretching over the Worlds Edge Mountains to distant Cathay. [1b]

During the Great War Against Chaos, Kislev was relieved by a combined force of an army from the Empire, Elves led by Teclis and Dwarfs from Karaz-a-Karak


see https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kislev for more info and image/links to various units in lore.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 13:47:03


Post by: Duskweaver


States being named after their capital city is not uncommon historically.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 14:34:39


Post by: Voss


chaos0xomega wrote:
Voss wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Voss wrote:

Well, they're not terribly afraid to expand into Forge World units and/or just make stuff up (Norsca & Vampire Coast, for example


Lol, none of that was made up, most if not all of it existed in some form in older editions of the game (though Vampire Coast was only conceptually hinted at in the past, we never saw any artwork or miniatures for their units).


Yeah.... with no artwork or minis, many of their units (even an LL) were... not created for the DLC?
Ok then.


Uhh... most if not all the units existed, they were published as an army list in White Dwarf 306 in June 2005: https://warhammer-fantasy-battle.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire_Coast

What, you think Creative Assembly just made them up???

Nope. I think GW and CA had some meetings and developed stuff that hadn't been on the tabletop before. Cathay is whole hog new, barring the potential existence of Skyrockets from 3rd edition, and/or Kirin and Temple Dog mounts (though obviously those are more mythology inspired).

I really don't get the rant when you're admitting they didn't have artwork or models.

Likewise Kislev had a WHFB army list and miniatures range and an even more complete Warmaster army list and miniatures range. Norsca you have to go back to the 90s and like 3rd edition WHFB for their army lists and minis, a bit before my time in the hobby, but they too existed.

I'm aware. But the old Norsca 'army list' from 3rd edition is actually a tiny 'mercenary contingent' that in no way reflects what's in the CA list. There was another in a secondary magazine (not WD... Fanatic?) that also isn't reflected in the CA roster. Norscans at that time weren't chaos oriented for one thing- the look was very different, mostly very historical Viking miniatures. So many, if not most of the of the models CA uses aren't really based on anything 'Norsca' GW ever made.
Skinwolves were Forgeworld, Fimir don't belong at all.

And really obviously the Kislev stuff is based on TOW concepts, not the old Kislev models tacked on to the empire army book and WD pamphlet. Winged Lancers and the Ice Queen exist, but clearly aren't based on the old models. Boris is dead, and there isn't any sign on Ungol Horsemen (yet?) beyond a reference to an 'Ungol Prince' in a letter in the trailer.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 15:00:50


Post by: catbarf


chaos0xomega wrote:
Uhh... most if not all the units existed, they were published as an army list in White Dwarf 306 in June 2005: https://warhammer-fantasy-battle.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire_Coast

What, you think Creative Assembly just made them up???


This is the Zombie Pirates army list from White Dwarf.

CA took that very bare-bones list and added all the vampire characters, Depth Guard, Animated Hulks, Mournguls, Rotting Prometheans, additional varieties of Deck Droppers, more artillery, Bloated Corpses (the ingame version is very different from the original), Necrofex Colossi, and Terrorgheists.

That's a lot of new content that, yes, CA essentially made up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote:
The issue with Ogres as a faction is the fact that they have so few unit options on the tabletop.


Excluding characters:

-Ogre Bulls (hand weapons)
-Ogre Bulls (ironfists)
-Ironguts
-Leadbelchers
-Maneaters
-Mournfang Cavalry (great weapons)
-Mournfang Cavalry (ironfists)
-Rhinox Riders
-Stonehorns
-Thundertusks
-Frost Sabres
-Gorgers
-Yhetees
-Scraplaunchers
-Ironblasters
-Gnoblar Fighters
-Gnoblar Trappers

...You really don't think that's enough to build an army from? It's a heck of a lot more than Kislev, Zombie Pirates, Chaos Dwarfs, or Norsca ever got.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 15:10:24


Post by: Overread


It's double what most of the AoS newly made (new models and new half armies) have in their army rosters.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 15:16:24


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


From what I remember of the development, CA had a hard time with the look of the Zombie Pirates as GW had to approve all choices and design decisions. GW wanted to have control over that and while they had the White Dwarf army list as a guide, the other stuff had to be approved and GW would constantly say "no" and send stuff back. I'm amazed they managed to get what they did with regards.

So in regards to Cathay and Kislev having GW do all the design work and just passing it off to CA while GW also works on The Old world using those designs. I mean this opens up Kurgan tribes as a possibility, even Ind and Nippon.

I'm excited!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 18:06:05


Post by: chaos0xomega


Voss wrote:
Nope. I think GW and CA had some meetings and developed stuff that hadn't been on the tabletop before. Cathay is whole hog new, barring the potential existence of Skyrockets from 3rd edition, and/or Kirin and Temple Dog mounts (though obviously those are more mythology inspired).

I really don't get the rant when you're admitting they didn't have artwork or models.


The point is more that this isn't "made up", its stuff that has a basis in the lore and the setting - and in all likelihood concept artwork existed for it even if we never got to see it. Its pretty well established that GW has done reams worth of concept artwork for units and armies that we have never heard of or seen before and is basically just sitting on them for future re-use in other projects, etc. ITs entirely possible that all of the above have their basis in this older concept work and were simply refreshed for TWW.

Fimir don't belong at all


Huh? Fimir existed in Warhammer Fantasy???

That's a lot of new content that, yes, CA essentially made up.


If by CA you mean GW and CA in partnership, and by made up you mean "had mostly developed in the past before killing WHFB and then revisited to modernize it". There was an interview a few years back where they discussed it.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 18:39:26


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Ooo that trailer.

Princess Letitgo is all Grimdark now.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 19:23:05


Post by: Voss


chaos0xomega wrote:
Voss wrote:
Nope. I think GW and CA had some meetings and developed stuff that hadn't been on the tabletop before. Cathay is whole hog new, barring the potential existence of Skyrockets from 3rd edition, and/or Kirin and Temple Dog mounts (though obviously those are more mythology inspired).

I really don't get the rant when you're admitting they didn't have artwork or models.


The point is more that this isn't "made up", its stuff that has a basis in the lore and the setting - and in all likelihood concept artwork existed for it even if we never got to see it. Its pretty well established that GW has done reams worth of concept artwork for units and armies that we have never heard of or seen before and is basically just sitting on them for future re-use in other projects, etc. ITs entirely possible that all of the above have their basis in this older concept work and were simply refreshed for TWW.

That's a pointless theoretical hair to split. Its stuff the audience isn't familiar with- it doesn't matter if they've got a vault of unreleased stuff stashed away somewhere out of the public eye.
'Its possible' doesn't matter. Its new to everyone outside GW.

Its even more pointless when they're literally posting videos talking about how they're using brand NEW concepts for TOW Kislev and especially Cathay. These aren't things from an old stash they're sitting on. Its part of the current Old World project, and they've developed it further for this game. The big teaser image of Katarina vs the Bloodthirster with skullcrushers and winged lancers and bears (and one of the new icemaidens behind the queen) is 'copyright GW 2021, published by Sega.'

Fimir don't belong at all

Huh? Fimir existed in Warhammer Fantasy???.

Context. Yes, they existed. They weren't part of Norsca army lists, and weren't chaos creatures. Mostly they lived in hinterlands inside the borders of the Empire, the Wasteland and Bretonnia.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 19:48:37


Post by: chaos0xomega



Its even more pointless when they're literally posting videos talking about how they're using brand NEW concepts for TOW Kislev and especially Cathay. These aren't things from an old stash they're sitting on. Its part of the current Old World project, and they've developed it further for this game. The big teaser image of Katarina vs the Bloodthirster with skullcrushers and winged lancers and bears (and one of the new icemaidens behind the queen) is 'copyright GW 2021, published by Sega.'


Katarina is an established character, her new look and artwork isn't a major deviation from what was there before. Pretty much everything shown of Kislev so far is an evolution of an existing concept and design. I.E. none of this is "made up" as you contend, but rather the continuation of an established concept. You might think its a pedantic semantical difference, but it's not. Theres a far cry between something being wholly 100% brand new cut from whole clothe made up, and a refinement and evolution of an existing concept or design. Would you say that Sigvald was made up for Age of Sigmar because his new sculpt looks different from his old artwork and mini? Because thats basically the equivalent of what you're saying here by saying that they "made up" Kislev.

Context. Yes, they existed. They weren't part of Norsca army lists, and weren't chaos creatures. Mostly they lived in hinterlands inside the borders of the Empire, the Wasteland and Bretonnia.


Ah, understood. It was unclear to me what you meant.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 21:27:45


Post by: Mr Morden


Fimir weren't chaos creatures. Mostly they lived in hinterlands inside the borders of the Empire, the Wasteland and Bretonnia
.

They were Daemon worshippers and summoners and although they were known to exist in those areas they were also stated (WFRP1 p218-219) as living in the northern coast of the Old World and anywhere it was "Dank and dismal". They were also supposed to have a island capital that moved and travelled in longships so Norse is actually not that big of a stretch.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 23:09:48


Post by: Argive


Its up for pre-sale on steam. Release date - late 2021.

It mentions you get an extra race pack if you do the pre-sale.

So it looks like there will be day 1 DLC. Not a fan of this but I'm buying the game anyway so might as well pre order.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/04 23:56:11


Post by: Overread


They also note that the pre-order bonus remains in effect for the first week after release. So you can simply wait until it goes live and buy during that week.

Honestly much as I love the series and game I never feel any real need to pre-order because in the end I'm not getting anything and they won't run out of stock. Chances are I might pre order a few days in advance if there's a pre-download (esp as my net is pretty slow so the 30GB+ or so in size that the game is at least likely to be will take a while); but that's purely impatience on my part. Any time in that first week will be good.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 01:44:02


Post by: Eumerin


 Overread wrote:
They also note that the pre-order bonus remains in effect for the first week after release. So you can simply wait until it goes live and buy during that week.

Honestly much as I love the series and game I never feel any real need to pre-order because in the end I'm not getting anything and they won't run out of stock. Chances are I might pre order a few days in advance if there's a pre-download (esp as my net is pretty slow so the 30GB+ or so in size that the game is at least likely to be will take a while); but that's purely impatience on my part. Any time in that first week will be good.


And let's be blunt - unless it's an utter and complete disaster of the sort that reformats your hard drive when you try and run it, anyone who bought the first two games is probably going to buy the third game very early on, even if it means sitting and waiting three months for CA to patch it into a playable state.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 01:53:14


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Argive wrote:
Its up for pre-sale on steam. Release date - late 2021.

It mentions you get an extra race pack if you do the pre-sale.

So it looks like there will be day 1 DLC. Not a fan of this but I'm buying the game anyway so might as well pre order.


The way this was handled with TWW2 was that the extra race you got was DLC for TWW1 also (Norsca).

Maybe they’ll do the same here, where the preorder race is playable in TWW2 mortal empires campaign.

TBH, I feel this is one game where a certain amount of DLC abuse is warranted because the different races are so individual. It’s not like historical games where animations or models can be reused from one race to the next. I assume TWW3 is gonna have something like mortal empires where you can play as races from earlier games if you own them. It’s going to be expensive for new players who currently don’t own any, but at the same time it’s gonna be crazy having 20 or so playable races across a whole Warhammer map going all the way to Cathay.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 02:07:08


Post by: Argive


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Its up for pre-sale on steam. Release date - late 2021.

It mentions you get an extra race pack if you do the pre-sale.

So it looks like there will be day 1 DLC. Not a fan of this but I'm buying the game anyway so might as well pre order.


TBH, I feel this is one game where a certain amount of DLC abuse is warranted because the different races are so individual. It’s not like historical games where animations or models can be reused from one race to the next. I assume TWW3 is gonna have something like mortal empires where you can play as races from earlier games if you own them. It’s going to be expensive for new players who currently don’t own any, but at the same time it’s gonna be crazy having 20 or so playable races across a whole Warhammer map going all the way to Cathay.


That would be awesome. I hope they dont just cut out ulthan and lustria and go solely in the other direction.
I would be totally down for a Vortex style campaign and a much expanded mortal empires with the added region. The map is already massive.
The main issue is you get too many order tides forming and confederation mega faction stomping out other races so by the time you get to new territory you end up fighting the same faction for days. would be nice if they held back on confederation steam roller.

Im probably going to pre-order on payday at the end of the month as a treat.
I think nows a good time to get into streaming


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 02:07:59


Post by: Overread


They've said the mortal empires style map will come after launch, probably so they can iron out launch issues with the engine and such before hitting it with a MASSIVE map that's way beyond anything CA has ever made before in scale and size.

Also don't forget the games go on sale pretty often and I'd be shocked if we don't see some bundles appear. At this stage I'd even wager we might see a "Definitive" edition for Warhammer 1 and 2 appear on stores giving you a one cheap purchase option for the whole experience.


Simplifying the purchase for new people and making it more likely people get all the content and not just bits.

That and things like Fanatical sales and Humble Bundles might well happen too (Warhammer 1 was humbled bundled before 2 was launched).

So for those who are new there will be ample chances to get the previous games at fair discounts.















As for all the DLC I don't see it as abuse, I see it as exactly what DLC is for in a positive way. Letting a developer add content that would otherwise put the core game over normal price thresholds and also rewarding good sales with additional content (Norsca were not going to be added originally, high sales added them).
It's the same practice that Paradox uses for many of their bigger titles. The likes of Crusader Kings 2 and Stellaris are big games with a lot of DLC (often bundled - heck I don't even like Crusader Kings 2 and I've wound up with most of the DLC at very cheap prices); but that's DLC that each time added either small additions at cheap prices or big chunks of new content. Basically so long as customers kept generating enough profit the company keeps feeding them more for the game. The end result are massive games that are chock full of content.



That isn't to say that every DLC is a winner and there are lessons. Eg CA learned that people didn't like the mini-faction campaigns in Warhammer 1; so all the mini-campaigns that came in Warhammer 2 were refined and adapted to work better and from what I can tell people really do like them.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 02:44:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yeah but CA does dick around with its customers, right back to making Chaos a pre-order bonus for TWW1.

They do tend to leave things out only to add them in later DLCs.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 06:44:56


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Maybe I'm just biased, but I don't really mind. I feel like the games are worth the price to buy at launch anyway so I don't mind preordering. I find it less egregious than "season pass" stuff, or DLC that you aren't sure is worth it, or DLC that is integral to the experience, or pay to win games, or pay-to-not-grind.

With TWW race packs, you pretty much know what you're getting and you can decide if that's worth the price either of the pack itself or the price of preordering.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 19:11:49


Post by: His Master's Voice


It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 20:03:05


Post by: Eumerin


 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.



Both the Vampire Coast and Tomb Kings factions were very well received by the players. The other DLCs for Warhammer 2 were only sub-fsctions of an already existing race. So the current track record suggests that the Chaos Dwarves will turn out just fine.

As for being in at release? Never would have happened. The Ogre Kingdoms would have had a higher priority based on its status as a fully supported army when 8th Edition ended.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 20:19:37


Post by: His Master's Voice


Beastmen were and still are a flaming dumpster fire of a faction. Chaos is just a plain, unlit dumpster. Wood Elves were barely passable until the very recent rework and that rework has yet to stand the test of time. TK's roster is lacking in generic Lord variety and their Mortal Empires campaign is lacklustre despite interesting faction mechanics. The Mortal Empires campaign for Vampire Coast is a joke, although they do have one of the best rosters in the game,so they have that going for them. Norsca is just plain vanilla mediocre, with nothing to distinguish them from other raiding factions.

Compare that to Skaven, Empire or even the reworked Orcs. Hell, Grom alone had more thought put into his mechanics than all the TK lords combined.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 20:26:02


Post by: Commander Cain


I am still convinced that they will end up as the pre-order faction. Some of their lands are already in WH2 so they could have the same treatment as Norsca being playable in both games.

The only other options that I am aware of would be Ogre Kingdoms and Dogs of War. Ogres would be unlikely given all new animations and would probably not show up until a year or two into the game. DoW don't really fit with the 3rd game's presumed map so I feel fairly confident that some angry stunties will show up pretty soon!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/05 20:50:17


Post by: Voss


Eumerin wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.



Both the Vampire Coast and Tomb Kings factions were very well received by the players. The other DLCs for Warhammer 2 were only sub-fsctions of an already existing race. So the current track record suggests that the Chaos Dwarves will turn out just fine.

Totally agree. CA has progressed a lot from the TW1 DLC factions, with Norsca as a median step along the way (when they were still learning how to do substantial faction-specific mechanics with the hunts). The race packs for game 2 are way better, and whatever race packs come with game 3 will be along those lines.

As for being in at release? Never would have happened. The Ogre Kingdoms would have had a higher priority based on its status as a fully supported army when 8th Edition ended.

Eh. I do think its very (very, very) surprising that its Cathay rather than OK or CD as a base faction. 'Never would have happened' seems absurd in the face of basically fully developing Cathay as a faction this long after WFB as a game was killed off.

But I do fully expect Ogres to be the 'early adopter' bonus faction, and Chaos Dwarfs to be the first 'independent' DLC pack... late spring or summer next year, I'd guess. There aren't many other options for full race packs (though I still expect existing faction revamps through lord packs, similar to the twisted and the twilight or Superman vs Grom). I don't expect Dogs of War ever, and Araby's opportunity has come and gone.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/06 01:38:37


Post by: Eumerin


Voss wrote:
[
Eh. I do think its very (very, very) surprising that its Cathay rather than OK or CD as a base faction. 'Never would have happened' seems absurd in the face of basically fully developing Cathay as a faction this long after WFB as a game was killed off.


I agree that Cathay is very surprising. But imo, the choices would either boil down to "something conventional that was fully supported by the game" - and the only choice like that still left is Ogre Kingdoms - or "something completely out of left field", which is where Cathay falls. Chaos Dwarves are somewhere in the middle of that, which dramatically reduces their chance of being included, imo.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/06 01:57:16


Post by: Voss


Eumerin wrote:
Voss wrote:
[
Eh. I do think its very (very, very) surprising that its Cathay rather than OK or CD as a base faction. 'Never would have happened' seems absurd in the face of basically fully developing Cathay as a faction this long after WFB as a game was killed off.


I agree that Cathay is very surprising. But imo, the choices would either boil down to "something conventional that was fully supported by the game" - and the only choice like that still left is Ogre Kingdoms - or "something completely out of left field", which is where Cathay falls. Chaos Dwarves are somewhere in the middle of that, which dramatically reduces their chance of being included, imo.

I have a hard time with the concept that something in the middle is the least likely. [Ie, the speed limit for a non-highway is 25 or 45, but never ever 30 or 35. That's just conceptually weird]

Especially since they're directly to the existing maps (especially the new eastern tail they added to the ME map for Eshin and DE in that lord pack). You can currently physically mouse over the Darklands on the Mortal Empires map, even though its greyed out.

IN TW3, for Kislev to get to the Ogre Kingdoms or Cathay, the most direct route is through the Northern Darklands. It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented to have non-factions in that space at launch (see Khemri and the Vampire Coast), it could just as easily have been filled at the start. Without Cathay, I would have fully expected it to be, either as a base faction or as the early adopter bonus. Given Chaos Dwarfs had army lists more often and more recently (Ravening Hordes, WD, the 'WD Presents Chaos Dwarves' book and Forgeworld) than Norsca or Vampire Coast, its weird in that respect as well.

Barring the push for a Chinese audience and the urge to have a second 'not-overtly-evil' faction, Kislev/Ogres/Chaos Dwarfs/Daemons was widely accepted as the most likely base faction setup for TW3.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/06 12:22:07


Post by: shinros


 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's strange how unreasonably angry the omission of Chorfs from the base game made me. Like, skip-release-and-buy-on-sale angry.

This was the one chance Chorfs had to maybe convince GW they deserve a future SoB treatment, and they got the DLC finger instead. And looking at CA's track record with DLC factions, the best you can expect is 'better than Beastmen".

Goddamnit.



You're not alone in that camp, they pick a faction that has barely anything written about it and had no TT support over chaos dwarfs and ogre kingdoms as a core race? Hence why my stance is rather neutral for the trailer and the fact gameplay wise if you play enough total war you would know katarin is going to get squished by the bloodthrister hence why the moment wasn't all that "great" in my eyes.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/06 14:00:41


Post by: Not Online!!!


You lot behave like a storm in a waterglass...
Check the map. To the right there's a massive ammount of land in the ME map.

CA only changes Maps infront of a release of a faction, cue albion and the big meanie dino thingy, or khmeri, etc.

Now tell me. what is there to the right of the map?



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/06 22:01:50


Post by: Marxist artist


This game is costing me a fortune, I decided when it was announced I would get a new gaming pc as my old i7 3770k was beginning to creak so 2000 pounds later I will be ready plus a nvm drive so mortal empires doesn't take 15 minutes a turn.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/07 03:11:54


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Marxist artist wrote:
This game is costing me a fortune, I decided when it was announced I would get a new gaming pc as my old i7 3770k was beginning to creak so 2000 pounds later I will be ready plus a nvm drive so mortal empires doesn't take 15 minutes a turn.


It's usually best to wait until a game comes out before upgrading your system so you know what aspects are importnant, though if you're spending 2000 pounds I imagine you're going high end with all parts of it (unless computer parts are way more expensive in the uk, lol).

When I last checked benchmarks, there was no appreciable difference in game load times for having an nvme drive. SSD is a lot faster than HDD, but there was no additional boost for going NVMe over SATA... so for my computer I decided to buy a large capacity SATA with good sustained read/write speeds rather than a smaller NVMe for the same price.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/07 12:51:49


Post by: Overread


The game will likely run on similar specks to Warhammer 1 and 2 so we roughly know the performance. It's a yearish off though.


Honestly the only thing i'd hold back on now is if you're buying parts and want a new Nvidia 3K gen graphics card because they are insanely inflated right now due to short support and scalpers.

Processors, motherboards and all the core parts are likely not going to leap ahead in the next year so they'll see you for a long time. Heck I'm debating an upgrade and will simply put my 2K nvidia card into the computer and wait until the prices come back down to sane points before considering an upgrade



Prebuilt machines are more affordable at present, because they at least aren't being hit by scalpers. If you want the new generation graphics cards


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/07 13:12:07


Post by: Olthannon





Consider this map from Warriors of Chaos army book. Cathay doesn't seem like quite such a whacky choice. It also seems pretty likely that Chaos Dwarves will be in there.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/07 13:14:28


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


It’d be kind of cool if the could do a spherical map, they’re getting so close to having the whole world.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/07 13:36:58


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


With a North Pole centered map it makes total sense.

I always thought the Chaos Dwarves have a cool look. Whatever you think of the big hats, the Assyrians meet Steam/Diesel Punk stuff was very cool, limited mainly by the casting tech at the time. A video game approach could be novel and cool.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/07 23:38:18


Post by: Argive


 His Master's Voice wrote:
Beastmen were and still are a flaming dumpster fire of a faction. Chaos is just a plain, unlit dumpster. Wood Elves were barely passable until the very recent rework and that rework has yet to stand the test of time. TK's roster is lacking in generic Lord variety and their Mortal Empires campaign is lacklustre despite interesting faction mechanics. The Mortal Empires campaign for Vampire Coast is a joke, although they do have one of the best rosters in the game,so they have that going for them. Norsca is just plain vanilla mediocre, with nothing to distinguish them from other raiding factions.

Compare that to Skaven, Empire or even the reworked Orcs. Hell, Grom alone had more thought put into his mechanics than all the TK lords combined.


The issue with all of these is AI ruin dwelling.

Raiding/ non settling factions are at massive disadvantage not being able to hold ground. Not that's saying much because being better than beastmen is like a very low bar
I hope they will do something about the ruin/razing mechanic. What I would like to see is a fix. Like if you defile/raze a place there should be a 5 turn cooldown from the moment corruption falls below 50%(starting at 100%) in the region before it can be settled by any faction. So if they want it back they will need to invest some heroes/untainted buildins in surrounding area. Which should amount to at least 10-15 turns before a ruin settlemnt can be re-occupied (searchable as normal).

I think this is currently the biggest issue allowing for order tide to just roll over chaos and beastmen. Its really frustrating to fight some hard battles 2-3 times on the trot and then be spent only for the enemy to walk back in and resettle when you go back to replenish.

Im sticking to my current rig. Unless it starts to chug or now allow me to go on ultra I don't see point in upgrading. Also if I spent the money I want to spend and my woman would find out shed probably leave me hahah

Also some rumours seem to suggest chaos dwarves are coming sooner than we think - perhaps a final race pack for WH2/ free LC for WH3.
I don't think here will only be 3 playable races day 1.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/07 23:57:55


Post by: Voss


They're pitching them as 6 factions. From the skullcrushers, they're hinting at distinct God armies, not 'Chaos Daemons' as an army. The FAQ is even more direct about it.


The declaration of no more race packs for WH2 still holds. The last dlc for wh2 will be another lord pack.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 00:53:37


Post by: Overread


Yeah they won't add a new faction this late to Warhammer 2. They already tried that with Norsca and it burned them hard (they had to remake the army all over again) because the little unique features they put into Norsca weren't factored for in their porting software which promptly broke things when they tried to port it.

So I'd wager all the Warhammer 1-2 factions are already ported over to Warhammer 3 and any new ones will be made purely in the Warhammer 3 build.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 01:08:48


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I just wish they'd tell us. We need to know if it's OK, CD or someone else.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 01:32:25


Post by: Overread


They've got half a year or so to tease details out.

Sadly you're going to be in for a longish wait. That said whatever armies they are I'm sure they will be awesome.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 01:34:32


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Overread wrote:
Sadly you're going to be in for a longish wait. That said whatever armies they are I'm sure they will be awesome.
Given that it's a pre-order/early adopter thing, they kind of have to tell us.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 01:50:54


Post by: chaos0xomega


My guess (and I could be very wrong), is that Ogre Kingdoms, Chaos Dwarves, and probably also Araby are in different stages of development and the pre-order bonus will come down to which of the three is going to be most ready to go on release. I would guess that Ind/Nippon/Khuresh are also in dev but based on the TWW2 preorder also being a TWW1 faction, I would guess that those three are too far off the map to be the bonus faction. My guess is that its mostly going to be between Chaos Dwarves and Araby as these are the two factions that would fit within the current map state - of those I think Chaos Dwarves are more likely as they recently widened the map area into the Darklands (though it remains shaded out for now), which hints at intent to me.


EDIT:
Also - I think we kind of expected this, but: https://www.pcgamesn.com/total-war-warhammer-3/steam-china

Honestly, I have been wondering if The Old World isn't actually an attempt to make greater inroads into the Asian/Chinese market. The Asian market, and China in particular, *love* Western/European medieval fantasy tropes, but actual western/european medieval fantasies often struggle in the Asian/Chinese market because of cultural relativity and familiarity issues, etc. The decision to work Cathay in to things would be a smart play to lower the barrier for entry for Chinese and Asian audiences by offering them something a bit more familiar that they can work with and ease the transition into the more traditional Western/European medieval knights stuff that they otherwise go nuts for.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 04:33:09


Post by: Voss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Sadly you're going to be in for a longish wait. That said whatever armies they are I'm sure they will be awesome.
Given that it's a pre-order/early adopter thing, they kind of have to tell us.


Eventually. Given that its tentatively dated for 'late 2021' (reasonable guesses are for September/October, assuming no shenanigans, which to me means Nov/Dec, with a chance of January '22, because this year will have shenanigans), the rough details of the Early Adopter race will probably be June-ish?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 05:44:19


Post by: Argive


chaos0xomega wrote:
My guess (and I could be very wrong), is that Ogre Kingdoms, Chaos Dwarves, and probably also Araby are in different stages of development and the pre-order bonus will come down to which of the three is going to be most ready to go on release. I would guess that Ind/Nippon/Khuresh are also in dev but based on the TWW2 preorder also being a TWW1 faction, I would guess that those three are too far off the map to be the bonus faction. My guess is that its mostly going to be between Chaos Dwarves and Araby as these are the two factions that would fit within the current map state - of those I think Chaos Dwarves are more likely as they recently widened the map area into the Darklands (though it remains shaded out for now), which hints at intent to me.


EDIT:
Also - I think we kind of expected this, but: https://www.pcgamesn.com/total-war-warhammer-3/steam-china

Honestly, I have been wondering if The Old World isn't actually an attempt to make greater inroads into the Asian/Chinese market. The Asian market, and China in particular, *love* Western/European medieval fantasy tropes, but actual western/european medieval fantasies often struggle in the Asian/Chinese market because of cultural relativity and familiarity issues, etc. The decision to work Cathay in to things would be a smart play to lower the barrier for entry for Chinese and Asian audiences by offering them something a bit more familiar that they can work with and ease the transition into the more traditional Western/European medieval knights stuff that they otherwise go nuts for.


There is something to this for sure.
I read somewhere that 3 kingdoms sold more copies in china alone than all other TW titles combined globally.
Could be total BS though and I havent really looked into it but I can well believe it..


I took the plunge and pre ordered my copy.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 06:35:35


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Overread wrote:
Yeah they won't add a new faction this late to Warhammer 2. They already tried that with Norsca and it burned them hard (they had to remake the army all over again) because the little unique features they put into Norsca weren't factored for in their porting software which promptly broke things when they tried to port it.

So I'd wager all the Warhammer 1-2 factions are already ported over to Warhammer 3 and any new ones will be made purely in the Warhammer 3 build.


I wouldn't discount the idea of another Norsca type deal where the DLC is a Warhammer 3 race which is playable in Mortal Empires of TWW2, eg. Chaos Dwarfs in the big open space on the existing map. It gives people more reason to preorder because they can play that race prior to TWW3 being released, and in spite of the technical problems CA had with Norsca I think it was a good thing for them.

The reason I wouldn't discount it based on the Norsca "burn" is because the screw up there seemed to be a management problem more than anything. It sounded like Team Norsca simply wasn't communicating with Team Warhammer 2, and they realised too late that the projects had diverged enough to not be easily portable.

But with a better plan from the outset to deal with that, it shouldn't be as big of a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:

There is something to this for sure.
I read somewhere that 3 kingdoms sold more copies in china alone than all other TW titles combined globally.
Could be total BS though and I havent really looked into it but I can well believe it..
The Chinese market is a fickle one, I think many movie and game studies have gone down the path of trying to appease Chinese consumers and failed, but if you get it right then it's a market that dwarfs the western ones.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 15:20:09


Post by: His Master's Voice


 Argive wrote:

I read somewhere that 3 kingdoms sold more copies in china alone than all other TW titles combined globally.
Could be total BS though and I havent really looked into it but I can well believe it.


Yeah, that didn't happen. Just look at Sega financial statements for 2019 and 2020.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


I wouldn't discount the idea of another Norsca type deal where the DLC is a Warhammer 3 race which is playable in Mortal Empires of TWW2, eg. Chaos Dwarfs in the big open space on the existing map.


But there is no big open space for Chaos Dwarves on the WH2 Mortal Empires map right now. CA would actually have to majorly expand the map to accommodate them.

Edit: Actually, I suppose you could fit a part of Plain of Zharr in the current WH2 ME map.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 17:15:29


Post by: Commander Cain


chaos0xomega wrote:

Honestly, I have been wondering if The Old World isn't actually an attempt to make greater inroads into the Asian/Chinese market. The Asian market, and China in particular, *love* Western/European medieval fantasy tropes, but actual western/european medieval fantasies often struggle in the Asian/Chinese market because of cultural relativity and familiarity issues, etc. The decision to work Cathay in to things would be a smart play to lower the barrier for entry for Chinese and Asian audiences by offering them something a bit more familiar that they can work with and ease the transition into the more traditional Western/European medieval knights stuff that they otherwise go nuts for.


It works out really well for CA, the demand for Cathay has been very strong in the last few years so introducing them is a win-win. I for one am stoked to see a whole new part of the Old World that we have never seen before. I wasn't even that interested in WHF before Total War took a stab at it so they have really done something magical so far.


Still not convinced that we will ever see Araby implemented though. CA said (albeit quite some time ago) that they were never going to do them, plus the fact that they have no place to go in the 3rd game map. I suppose they could do another DLC for TWW2 later on but I am not sure how financially viable that would be for them.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 17:27:50


Post by: Voss


Very unviable. It's worth noting that nothing they've done is backwards compatible. If you boot up TW1, none of the Orc, we, empire, etc changes are there.

Tw2 is going another lord pack and that's it. No more race packs and one last lord pack is official word.

They also won't add something to a game that doesn't fit on the base campaign map (not the mortal empires or equivalent map), so there won't be suddenly Araby in tw3 just for the updated 'ME' version.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 17:28:43


Post by: chaos0xomega


I should have been clearer, when I said an attempt to make inroads into the Chinese market, I meant on the part of GW rather than CA (hence why I said The Old World instead of TWW3). As in I suspect that GW actively pushed/encouraged CA to go that direction with TWW3 in conjunction with its own re-release of The Old World in order to try to sell TOW minis to China.

From what I understand, while 40k has done well in China, Age of Sigmar has not. Would make sense that if they think they could sell WHFB to the Chinese market that it would be worth revitalizing it, etc.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 20:40:06


Post by: Iracundus


chaos0xomega wrote:
I should have been clearer, when I said an attempt to make inroads into the Chinese market, I meant on the part of GW rather than CA (hence why I said The Old World instead of TWW3). As in I suspect that GW actively pushed/encouraged CA to go that direction with TWW3 in conjunction with its own re-release of The Old World in order to try to sell TOW minis to China.

From what I understand, while 40k has done well in China, Age of Sigmar has not. Would make sense that if they think they could sell WHFB to the Chinese market that it would be worth revitalizing it, etc.


They could also just introduce Cathay into AOS directly, maybe with a renaming.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 21:09:46


Post by: chaos0xomega


But *Cathay* isn't the real selling point to the Chinese audience, its the western/medieval european fantasy knights and landsknechts, alongside the stereotypical orcs and elves (and to a lesser extent dwarves) tropes - basically things that don't really exist in Age of Sigmar aside from legacy models that I'm fairly certain GW intends to eventually phase out from an aesthetics standpoint.

Cathay is there to help make the setting relatable to asian audiences and provide a frame of reference that makes the setting more approachable - they will come for Cathay, but they will stay for the knights and euro-centric crap.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/02/08 21:18:23


Post by: Mr Morden


Iracundus wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
I should have been clearer, when I said an attempt to make inroads into the Chinese market, I meant on the part of GW rather than CA (hence why I said The Old World instead of TWW3). As in I suspect that GW actively pushed/encouraged CA to go that direction with TWW3 in conjunction with its own re-release of The Old World in order to try to sell TOW minis to China.

From what I understand, while 40k has done well in China, Age of Sigmar has not. Would make sense that if they think they could sell WHFB to the Chinese market that it would be worth revitalizing it, etc.


They could also just introduce Cathay into AOS directly, maybe with a renaming.


There are similar human cultures which have been mentioned but not really explored


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 16:33:03


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


New video up...




Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 17:37:03


Post by: Olthannon


Just watched that now.. looks pretty darn delicious. Interesting looking roster for Kislev. I always hoped they would give them their own units, guess it made sense to do it like they have done.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 17:54:13


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


Yeah we can make guesses as to the Kislev unit roster based on what models that have existed.

Kossars (Greatweapons/Bows)
Winged Lancers (basic shock knights)
Ungol Horse Archers (Fast Cav)
Gryphon Legion (this is the odd one as they are tehnically a Regiment of Renown so we'll see how they work)

In addition we can make inferences based on the Charater models. Lord of Ice will no doubt be in it since we see it with the Tzarina. Her dad was a priest of Ursun and he rode a bear, and we see them in the trailer as well.

Factor in all the stuff from Mordheim and Warmaster and we can see how the faction will flesh out.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 18:17:09


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Also what's that accent supposed to be? It sounds so weird to my ear, lol.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 21:31:39


Post by: Argive


Im not sure how I feel about Ice godzilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Also what's that accent supposed to be? It sounds so weird to my ear, lol.


Sounds like an attempt eastern european/ Russian. Seems pretty clear.

I just hope they make cav and line infantry mean something..


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 21:51:53


Post by: Mr Morden


Now we need Ulrika as a TW character


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 22:20:20


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Argive wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Also what's that accent supposed to be? It sounds so weird to my ear, lol.


Sounds like an attempt eastern european/ Russian. Seems pretty clear.

I just hope they make cav and line infantry mean something..
It just seems so far from any Russian, Ukrainian, Pole, etc that I've heard.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/12 22:57:36


Post by: Argive


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Argive wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Also what's that accent supposed to be? It sounds so weird to my ear, lol.


Sounds like an attempt eastern european/ Russian. Seems pretty clear.

I just hope they make cav and line infantry mean something..
It just seems so far from any Russian, Ukrainian, Pole, etc that I've heard.


I'm a Pole whose whole family is Poles living in England and also know many other eastern European nationals from work. This is more or less how it goes
Not me thought. I learned English as a child so no bond villain accent for me.

Maybe eastern Europeans/ Russians trying to learn New Zealandy english come out with a totally different accent though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The main thing is... Ice Godzila...


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 00:16:51


Post by: Voss


Interesting look at the unit rosters. Not sure about the 'mini-stories' of the bear-girl and the chaos kislevite.

Also not sure why Kislev has a spirit tiger leading Winged Hussars into battle at about 01:30.

Some old school chaos furies scattered around the video.

Mega ice-bear is interesting. Curious if it will be a buildable unit or just a summon for ice wizards.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 00:27:21


Post by: Argive


Voss wrote:
Interesting look at the unit rosters. Not sure about the 'mini-stories' of the bear-girl and the chaos kislevite.

Also not sure why Kislev has a spirit tiger leading Winged Hussars into battle at about 01:30.

Some old school chaos furies scattered around the video.

Mega ice-bear is interesting. Curious if it will be a buildable unit or just a summon for ice wizards.


I think it might be a rare unit like the Dread Saurian or Idol. Icezilla is interetsing. I'm not a big fan of mega units but gene is well and truly out of the bottle.

Yeah that tiger thing threw me off. Thought it was supposed to be a bear at first.
I think it might be a fast monstrous hero/lord mount a la Brood Horror.

Main curiosity is if Blood thirster/ Lord of change will actualy fly (also the beastmen guy)



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 01:16:32


Post by: Overread


Snow tiger could be their take on something like a sabretoothed tiger.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 01:23:09


Post by: Argive


 Overread wrote:
Snow tiger could be their take on something like a sabretoothed tiger.


I expected that to be an ogres thing if ogres are going to be a thing haha


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 01:24:13


Post by: Overread


True, but in theory snow cats like that would be just part of the wildlife so could be tamed by more than one race.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 01:30:24


Post by: Voss


Its not just a 'snowcat,' the thing's legs and tail are glowing.

I don't think its just part of the wildlife. A shared unit would be multiple models. This is a singular unique thing- it isn't even a mount (no rider). It looks more like a character/hero in its own right.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 02:53:54


Post by: Argive


Maybe ROW special unit ?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 06:36:39


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


I thought maybe a summoned unit or a companion like Gobbla.

Though looking at the Tiger, noticed the jewellery it's wearing? It's not dissimilar to what Katarina was wearing in the first trailer, in some frames it looks like beadwork holding the blue glowy things on, so maybe she can transform into this tiger thingo?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Argive wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Also what's that accent supposed to be? It sounds so weird to my ear, lol.


Sounds like an attempt eastern european/ Russian. Seems pretty clear.

I just hope they make cav and line infantry mean something..
It just seems so far from any Russian, Ukrainian, Pole, etc that I've heard.


I'm a Pole whose whole family is Poles living in England and also know many other eastern European nationals from work. This is more or less how it goes
Not me thought. I learned English as a child so no bond villain accent for me.

Maybe eastern Europeans/ Russians trying to learn New Zealandy english come out with a totally different accent though.
The accent in the video sounded very laboured in a way I've not heard any actual eastern european speaking.

I have a few Polish friends here in Australia and spent some time in Poland, there's certainly a wide range of accents Polish people have (maybe regional?) but the accent in this video sounded like something totally weird to me.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 14:40:49


Post by: Voss


Also keep in mind the gameplay reveal is today.
The TW team should be doing something on one of their youtube channels, and various streamers/youtubers also have access to a mission (the same one?).
Its a Kislev vs Khorne daemons battle in the Wastes/RoC.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 15:15:18


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Yeah, it premieres in 48 minutes...




Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 16:15:56


Post by: Voss


Wasn't expecting a 'year in review' for CA, let alone a retrospective on the franchise.

Real stuff should be soon...


Bear cannon!
Nice archers, also.

Not sold on this battle mode (partially because the video is, as usual by CA, edited to crap). Its kind of neat, but I hope its not a big part of the actual campaign- it feels potentially tedious even with editing taking the connecting bits out.
It reminds me of a one v one version of the final vortex battle, mixed with three kingdoms siege setup.

Ice magic looks really strong.

I'll have to see what the youtubers do with it, this was (unsurprisingly) quick and dirty.

---
More talking. Reveals?

Axe guns.
Patriarch character - buffer character, his other ability icon looks like a heal
Lore of Ice and Lore of Tempest
Really cool finishing animation for the ice bear, batting his victim around.


Khorne is going to play a lot like dwarves but with fast units and a lot fewer ranged attacks. And obviously no magic. Hope magic resistance will really hold up this time, but I doubt it.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 16:50:10


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


According to some YouTubers who have had access to the battle have said that the battle mode is a rarity, basically when you get to the point of wiping out Khorne you'll be presented with that battle, and when you get to the point of wiping out the other chaos gods you'll get a similar battle.

But the NDA lifts in 15 minutes, so expect an influx of gameplay videos of that battle soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LegendofTotalWar posted up his video playing that mission...




Looks like they only let press play it on super-easy mode.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 17:41:59


Post by: His Master's Voice


So Kislev is made out of bears and ice.

I mean, there are some great designs underneath all the bears and ice, but it's mostly bears and ice.

Did I mention bears and ice?

At this point, I dread the Cathay reveal.

Not a fan. Doubly so, if this is what we're supposed to get in The Old World.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 17:45:38


Post by: BertBert


 His Master's Voice wrote:
So Kislev is made out of bears and ice.

I mean, there are some great designs underneath all the bears and ice, but it's mostly bears and ice.

Did I mention bears and ice?

At this point, I dread the Cathay reveal.

Not a fan. Doubly so, if this is what we're supposed to get in The Old World.


Agreed, I'd have preferred a more restrained approach. Katarina looks really cool though.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 17:53:29


Post by: His Master's Voice


Yeah, I don't mind Katarina ice skating around. She's a powerful ice witch, a bit of flashiness is appropriate.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 18:03:39


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


Yeah just watched Zerkovichs overview of the Kislev units. Looks like what I thought, although Gryphon Legion is a straight unit and not a Regiment of Renown which is cool. Will have more time to watch a few more gameplay vids tonight like Heir of Carthage.

So far I likes what I see


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 18:26:09


Post by: Voss


Lionheart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JWqFGJV6E0

Janet on Occasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izEzEtAyyhk

Interesting thing here is that the khorne units' health numbers are way turned down for this scenario and the press event. So the units just melting isn't representative of the actual game. Especially with the ice magic.

Like some of the UI refinements. Particularly the Winds of Magic hourglass, which gives a better view of what you're spending and sense of the total.

Love the death animation for bloodletters, falling and bursting into flame.

----
Not sure what the bears and ice complaints are about. I'm seeing a lot of the traditional Kislev units in these videos.

---

Huh. Cool, the Bloodthirsters do actually fly.
Skullcannons are in, as well. Seem scaled a bit bigger compared to tabletop.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 19:29:05


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


Yeah I mean Kislevites worship Ursun, who is a bear god in the same vein as Ulric being a Wolf God. Kislevites have had the unique Lore of Ice is....well, at least as far back as when I started playing.

Yeah Zerkovichs mentioned in his stream that in the scenario that it looks like all the Total War Youtubers have gotten to play the the enemies health is dropped by a lot. So it's not a proper representation of what it will be like in game.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 21:08:51


Post by: Graphite


Nate Crowley writing on TW3 in his own inimitable fashion:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/total-war-warhammer-3-brings-tower-defence-boss-fights-and-lakes-of-sick-to-total-war-i-love-it

"But TWW3 will not simply be a third bucket of sausages, tipped onto this already-groaning wheelbarrow of meat."

"This realm belongs to Khorne, the god of pub car park fistfights"

" The brave lads and lasses of Kislev have invaded this place under the leadership of Queen Katarin, who’s like a metal version of Elsa off of Frozen"



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 21:42:01


Post by: Argive


Im glad this tower defence style game play is going to be a final event battle. It seems a lot more like DOW than TW.

All in all looks pretty good. WHTW2+

No complaints


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/13 22:50:40


Post by: cody.d.


Still wondering where or if Ogre Kingdom's are going to emerge. They're the faction i'm looking forward to most and they very much are within the area wandering around and looking for things to snack on.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/14 01:10:49


Post by: Eumerin


The announced plan from the start was to have all of the published armies (with a question mark for Chaos Dwarves), so I would expect to see the Ogres. I wouldn't be surprised if they're a DLC army, though.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/14 07:53:48


Post by: Not Online!!!


Shouldn't there still be a preorder DLC to tie us over for WH2?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/14 11:29:44


Post by: Voss


Not Online!!! wrote:
Shouldn't there still be a preorder DLC to tie us over for WH2?
l

There is one more lord pack dlc for TW2, but it's still 'months' off.

There is a preorder dlc for tw3, but it has nothing for 2. (As far as we know)


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/15 06:54:31


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Voss wrote:
There is a preorder dlc for tw3, but it has nothing for 2. (As far as we know)


They haven't said anything, but I'm gonna guess it's maybe going to be a race playable in TWW2. But maybe it won't.





Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/15 10:05:06


Post by: Overread


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
There is a preorder dlc for tw3, but it has nothing for 2. (As far as we know)


They haven't said anything, but I'm gonna guess it's maybe going to be a race playable in TWW2. But maybe it won't.





It won't be another race. Right now any brand new races will be TWW 3 only content.

Whilst they want to reward their TWW2 customers, they really would rather everyone started to shift toward the 3rd game when it comes out. Attention on the 2nd game only needs to be enough to spark interest in those who are not keeping up with the news; get them playing near the launch of the 3rd game, even just for a bit, so that they are excited again for the game series and more likely to jump on the 3rd game.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/15 10:17:00


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Overread wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
There is a preorder dlc for tw3, but it has nothing for 2. (As far as we know)


They haven't said anything, but I'm gonna guess it's maybe going to be a race playable in TWW2. But maybe it won't.





It won't be another race. Right now any brand new races will be TWW 3 only content.

Whilst they want to reward their TWW2 customers, they really would rather everyone started to shift toward the 3rd game when it comes out. Attention on the 2nd game only needs to be enough to spark interest in those who are not keeping up with the news; get them playing near the launch of the 3rd game, even just for a bit, so that they are excited again for the game series and more likely to jump on the 3rd game.


I could see them doing something like Norsca again. I know that was a bit of a screw up with TWW2, but it wasn't a bad idea and the screw up was on the technical side from different development groups not communicating such that the Norsca project and the TWW2 project diverged and made it so it wasn't an easy copy/paste.

But the TWW2 Mortal Empires map has a big empty space to the east where they could stick a new race if they wanted.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/15 18:37:09


Post by: Eumerin


 Overread wrote:

Whilst they want to reward their TWW2 customers, they really would rather everyone started to shift toward the 3rd game when it comes out. Attention on the 2nd game only needs to be enough to spark interest in those who are not keeping up with the news; get them playing near the launch of the 3rd game, even just for a bit, so that they are excited again for the game series and more likely to jump on the 3rd game.



Eh...

Gonna have to disagree here. First of all, the pre-order bonus for the second game was Norsca.

Second, and more importantly, the draw for these games has always been that they're not just three Warhammer games. The draw has been that this is essentially one GIGANTIC game, released in three bite-sized (and wallet-conscious) chunks. To a certain extent, it's actually in CA's best interests to get people who buy this game thinking about the earlier games (if they haven't already). Because if you have the first game and the third game, then you can buy the second game to get access to a massive campaign that spans across all three games.

Third and finally, the release of the second game didn't stop work on the first. Some of the most significant reworks to the first game's content (such as the Empire rework) actually took place after the second game was released. Yes, it's true that all DLC after Norsca required the second game. But that doesn't mean that there hasn't been some content improvements for people who only own the first game (said content also applies to people who play Mortal Empires, of course).

Right now, I don't think we have any way of predicting which game the pre-order bonus will require as its "core" game.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/15 19:00:42


Post by: Voss


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
There is a preorder dlc for tw3, but it has nothing for 2. (As far as we know)


They haven't said anything, but I'm gonna guess it's maybe going to be a race playable in TWW2. But maybe it won't.


They've said, repeatedly, that there will be no more race packs for TW2.

Eumerin wrote:Gonna have to disagree here. First of all, the pre-order bonus for the second game was Norsca.

Which was a complete clusterfeth. Not something they're going to want to repeat.

Second, and more importantly, the draw for these games has always been that they're not just three Warhammer games. The draw has been that this is essentially one GIGANTIC game, released in three bite-sized (and wallet-conscious) chunks.

Keep in mind, the 'gigantic' game is a secondary game mode. The focus has been on the 'main campaign' map for the game in question- the ME campaign is a bonus- the focus is always on the base game at hand.

Doing a race that fits at the juncture of all four continents on the not-Atlantic (the Vortex map) AND in the completely landlocked space between Kislev, Cathay and the Chaos Wastes is a hard one.

We don't have a clear prediction of which race will be the preorder DLC, but it would be crazy and foolish if it wasn't something that fit into the base campaign for TW3. Not least of which is the new version of the Mortal Empires campaign won't be available right away, so a focus there would be a complete waste (as well as out of line with what they've done in the past).


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/15 19:26:30


Post by: Eumerin


Voss wrote:

Eumerin wrote:Gonna have to disagree here. First of all, the pre-order bonus for the second game was Norsca.

Which was a complete clusterfeth. Not something they're going to want to repeat.


It was a problem because of a lack of communication and coordination between the two teams. As the cause of the problem has been identified, it should be something that can be avoided if they do something similar for the third game.

Second, and more importantly, the draw for these games has always been that they're not just three Warhammer games. The draw has been that this is essentially one GIGANTIC game, released in three bite-sized (and wallet-conscious) chunks.

Keep in mind, the 'gigantic' game is a secondary game mode. The focus has been on the 'main campaign' map for the game in question- the ME campaign is a bonus- the focus is always on the base game at hand.


It's secondary for the game at hand. But it's the primary mode for the "big picture", so to speak. Or to put it another way, the Vortex Campaign gets you to start playing TWWH2. But Mortal Empires is the advertisement to own *both* games instead of just one, and is where you turn to when you want to expand your play beyond the limits of the individual games. Want Settra to sack Altdorf in revenge for all of those archeological looting expeditions? Then you turn to Mortal Empires. The sum is greater than the whole of its parts.

Doing a race that fits at the juncture of all four continents on the not-Atlantic (the Vortex map) AND in the completely landlocked space between Kislev, Cathay and the Chaos Wastes is a hard one.



Doesn't have to be a new race. It just needs to be new starting locations and lords. We've got Bretonnians, Empire, and Greenskins in the second game. Two were part of a DLC, and the other was free.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/15 19:42:16


Post by: Voss


But... it is a new race.

From the FAQ:
We are currently planning to have Race Pack as the Early Adopter bonus for Total War: WARHAMMER III – stay tuned for all the latest details about this as soon as we can reveal them!


But it's the primary mode for the "big picture", so to speak.

Yeah, its the primary concern for the secondary game mode that comes later. This is a _race pack_ that comes _at launch_ with just the _base campaign_.
None of this is new information.


We've got Bretonnians, Empire, and Greenskins in the second game. Two were part of a DLC, and the other was free.

Yep. And Wood Elves. And they were all plopped on the base vortex campaign map. And the PR focus for the DLC was on how they interacted with the vortex campaign.

I'm just going to cock my head in puzzlement at this point, because your argument makes no sense.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/16 05:49:08


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
There is a preorder dlc for tw3, but it has nothing for 2. (As far as we know)


They haven't said anything, but I'm gonna guess it's maybe going to be a race playable in TWW2. But maybe it won't.


They've said, repeatedly, that there will be no more race packs for TW2.


But it wouldn't be, it'd be a race pack for TWW3 which is playable in TWW2.

Voss wrote:
Keep in mind, the 'gigantic' game is a secondary game mode. The focus has been on the 'main campaign' map for the game in question- the ME campaign is a bonus- the focus is always on the base game at hand.

The focus is "always"? I mean, it was in TWW2, and I think that was a detriment to TWW2 because clearly a large draw for the game was ME. From memory, TWW2 had pretty poor launch sales and I'd be blaming at least part of that on the fact it didn't launch with ME.

We don't know what they'll be doing with the new game. Obviously they're going to be pushing the new races, and they don't want to alienate people who aren't fans/owners of the first 2 games, but it'd be insane for them not to be pushing TWW3 as the completion of being able to play a truly massive campaign which includes all races from all games.


But we'll see, it's only a few months off now and there's not much point preordering this early until we know what's coming out with it anyway.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/16 14:19:43


Post by: Voss


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
[
The focus is "always"? I mean, it was in TWW2, and I think that was a detriment to TWW2 because clearly a large draw for the game was ME. From memory, TWW2 had pretty poor launch sales and I'd be blaming at least part of that on the fact it didn't launch with ME.

Yep. The fact that you think that strategy is a detriment illustrates pretty clearly that it was their strategy.
Though technically speaking, I was talking about the DLC and how each one dropped races or a single LL and an army on the Vortex map with some sort of personal goal.

The mega map campaign is a not inconsequential piece of development. It was never going to launch with 2, just like the new one won't launch with 3. (Unless they get way ahead on their milestones, which seems unlikely with everything this year- I fully expect release to slip from late 2021 to early 2022, probably announcing that around October).
From the FAQ wrote:WILL THERE BE A COMBINED MAP FOR OWNERS OF ALL THREE GAMES?
Yes, though currently our focus is on Total War: WARHAMMER III.

The focus is on the main game. 'Mortal Empires 2' will follow.

Personally, I'd love it if they did an Old world and Vortex map playable in three as well (though without the 'vortex campaign'), playable with the TW3 updates to the appropriate races, though that's a big ask.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:We don't know what they'll be doing with the new game.

We... don't?
We know base the factions, we know the broad geographical overview, we've had a look at part of the endgame, we know there's a preorder race pack. What are you missing?
Here's the FAQ, by the way:
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-iii-faq/

Obviously they're going to be pushing the new races, and they don't want to alienate people who aren't fans/owners of the first 2 games, but it'd be insane for them not to be pushing TWW3 as the completion of being able to play a truly massive campaign which includes all races from all games.
.

That's coming. Obviously. Just not at launch.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/17 10:22:41


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Voss wrote:
What are you missing?

How they manage the preorder DLC.

Though admittedly I didn't know they'd locked down the 6 races as being the 4 chaos gods + cathay and kislev. That probably makes it less likely that the preorder race will be available in TWW2 because I was thinking CD might still be an option as the DLC race.

But it's not like they don't want to sell TWW1 and TWW2 any more, on Steam (at least in Oz) they are still charging full price for those games and though you can get them on sale, even the sale price would still put a healthy amount of money in their pockets.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/17 11:12:07


Post by: Overread


TW Warhammer 1 and 2 go on regular steep sales on steam and 3rd party sites (like Fanaticals and Humble Bundle). They've also humble bundled the first game at least once. It was also in the recent free game set on the front of a White Dwarf issue


Whilst the game retails at its normal value, they have a lot of sales and give-aways to lower the price of entry.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/17 16:53:50


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Overread wrote:
TW Warhammer 1 and 2 go on regular steep sales on steam and 3rd party sites (like Fanaticals and Humble Bundle). They've also humble bundled the first game at least once. It was also in the recent free game set on the front of a White Dwarf issue


Whilst the game retails at its normal value, they have a lot of sales and give-aways to lower the price of entry.
Yeah, as I said, they have sales. But because the base price hasn't changed (rare for 4 and 5 year old games) and all the DLC you need to play Mortal Empires with all the trimmings, even when it's on sale 75% it's still making them a bit of money.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/17 22:48:11


Post by: Voss


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
What are you missing?

How they manage the preorder DLC.


How they manage it? The same way they did for the yellow turbans in 3K. If you buy early (up to about a week after launch, iirc) you get the race/faction dlc as a bonus. Otherwise you have to pay separately.

This is also in the FAQ:
As with our previous Early Adopter bonuses, it will also be gifted to anyone who pre-orders or buys the game in the first week after release, so you will still be able to claim the Early Adopter bonus for free up to a week after the game has launched.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/17 23:20:38


Post by: Overread


And honestly this will be the 3d game in the series using the same core mechanics, the same core features and the same engine. It's one of the few times a pre-order is pretty darn safe and if not you've got a whole week to make an order after launch incase CA makes an (unexpected) bungle of epic proportions. Even then it would have to be extreme because this is their second biggest franchise seller and their most popular game in general


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 04:43:29


Post by: Eumerin


 Overread wrote:
And honestly this will be the 3d game in the series using the same core mechanics, the same core features and the same engine. It's one of the few times a pre-order is pretty darn safe and if not you've got a whole week to make an order after launch incase CA makes an (unexpected) bungle of epic proportions. Even then it would have to be extreme because this is their second biggest franchise seller and their most popular game in general


The main thing that we're looking at as possible screw-ups are making some blatant flubs with racial mechanics, and ending up with something completely overpowered - along the lines of what people reported with Yuan Shao in Three Kingdoms, where he'd rapidly vassalize half the map early in the game (interestingly, Liu Bei is reported to have a problem right now due to cheap troops leading to far too many armies even before he's given Liu Biao's territories). That doesn't rule out other problems. Things up to and including "wipes your hard drive when you click the install button" are always a possibility (though a very remote one). But as you note, the core gameplay elements are very much a known quantity at this point due to the first two games.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 05:35:12


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Voss wrote:
This is also in the FAQ:
As with our previous Early Adopter bonuses, it will also be gifted to anyone who pre-orders or buys the game in the first week after release, so you will still be able to claim the Early Adopter bonus for free up to a week after the game has launched.
I'm pretty sure that was true of Norsca too.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 14:24:14


Post by: Mr Morden


new trailer




Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 14:38:48


Post by: Overread


snow leopards!!!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 14:40:41


Post by: Mr Morden


 Overread wrote:
snow leopards!!!
Magic ones I think - maybe pet of the Ice Witch in the vid


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 15:29:24


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Even more bear sleds.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 15:56:23


Post by: trexmeyer


I really, really dislike the aesthetics they went for with Kislev. It's OOT High Fantasy reminiscent of AoS or OOT elements from newer 40K. It's very jarring in comparison to the other human factions.

The magical elements clearly retcon lore in regards to Kislev. I expect Kislev to be similar to Bretonnia. A cavalry heavy faction with more focus on light/medium cavalry than heavy, no flying cavalry, monstrous cavalry via bears, better infantry across the board, weaker elite cavalry/melee lords/heroes (they're not supernaturally blessed), and a focus solely on Ice and maybe Life magic. Instead we have the most casual use of magic outside of the Tomb King constructs? Do the bloody Elves even use magic so casually as to pull sleds?

FFS, magic is chaos, magic is corrupting, why would the faction that basically exists to fight Chaos use a possibly corrupting element so casually?


Edit: It's an issue of "realism". It's an issue of in-universe rules being consistent.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 16:13:58


Post by: Mr Morden


Elves have flying sleds pulled by Eagles...so...yeah - plus scourgerunner sleds really need magic to work ( I really don't like the Flying Hawk Chariots)

Ice Magic is by all the older lore heavily connected to the land and not accesible even to the Elves - which is why IMO) the Elemental Bear works so well and heavily in keeping with the sometimes huge nature spirits .

I would agree though that bear sleds are not great - seem to be replacement for the War Wagons.

Kislev is not the anti-chaos faction - thats more the Lizardmen - whose leaders use.....the most powerful magic. Kislev is about survivial - Chaos is just another danger.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 16:20:04


Post by: Overread


Far as I recall Magic isn't Chaos, but Chaos in the Old World feeds off magic in itself.


And Kislev didn't use a lot of magic in general, but when they went to war and their Ice Queen went to battle they most certainly did have access to a lot of magic then. It's basically the shift between Kislev at peace where its mostly a few chaos raiders causing trouble and Kislev at war where its warlords and huge armies striking from the Chaos Wastes and thus Kislev unleashes all they have to stem the tide of Chaos and hold them back.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 16:27:32


Post by: Mr Morden


 Overread wrote:
Far as I recall Magic isn't Chaos, but Chaos in the Old World feeds off magic in itself.

And Kislev didn't use a lot of magic in general, but when they went to war and their Ice Queen went to battle they most certainly did have access to a lot of magic then. It's basically the shift between Kislev at peace where its mostly a few chaos raiders causing trouble and Kislev at war where its warlords and huge armies striking from the Chaos Wastes and thus Kislev unleashes all they have to stem the tide of Chaos and hold them back.


All Magic does eminate from the Realm Of Chaos - you can use it relatively safely..depending on how you do it....

Kislev Ice Witches are very powerful magic users (and politicians)


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/18 18:30:38


Post by: Olthannon


Yep as Morden says the winds of magic are inherently Chaos. That's why the Albion stone circles and the Great Vortex exist, to siphon the winds to prevent the daemons being able to run amok. It's why the Annulii mountains of Ulthuan have so many mutated magical beasts, because the winds flow through and around them.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/22 05:41:47


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Short vid on winged lancers...




Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/22 21:48:10


Post by: trexmeyer


Shouldn't they have two wings?

Edit: One wing is goofy as all hell.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/22 21:58:33


Post by: Voss


Nope. Original models were one wing, so they're exactly how they're supposed to be.

Toss 'kislev winged lancer model kit' into google and you'll see a lot of results.

Tsar Boris is the only model I spotted with two.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/22 23:24:50


Post by: trexmeyer


Meh, I'll just mod it. I was looking at the Polish Hussar.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/23 13:26:17


Post by: Mr Morden


Wrong thread


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/26 22:20:20


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Leaks!





Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/26 23:01:17


Post by: Argive


 trexmeyer wrote:
Meh, I'll just mod it. I was looking at the Polish Hussar.


A man of culture I see


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/27 08:23:57


Post by: Not Online!!!


god i hate how, euugh.. high german translated into a pompous style for advertisement. Just not natural.... Also lol what is that punctuation before the pics

Also rip that one tzar which feat was to tame a bear, seems now everyone and their babuschka can tame a bear in Kislev.

But then agian considering it's also troll country that's not as unlikely.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/27 11:45:28


Post by: Mr Morden


I was actually watching a documentary the other day about pets in historical periods and it was tlaking about how common bears were as pets in scandavian countries around the "Viking" era.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/05/28 14:07:23


Post by: RaptorusRex


I'm thinking of Wojtek.

Bears are intensely funny to me. They exist as just some guy most of the time, yet were revered by tons of cultures.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/03 18:04:26


Post by: Voss


Teaser for Khorne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur05W5lxzAM

What's that at 0:28-0:31?

Is it a Khorgorath? (supposedly no AoS in WH3, so it shouldn't be)
Is it Scyla Anfingramm? (doesn't look right with blades rather than fists)
Or is it just a khorne themed chaos spawn?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/03 18:08:58


Post by: Eumerin


While I haven't watched the trailer yet, I'll note that Skarbrand is in it. And a CA rep has stated that Skarbrand is merely jumping. He can't fly, as his wings have been destroyed.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/03 18:13:11


Post by: Voss


Eumerin wrote:
While I haven't watched the trailer yet, I'll note that Skarbrand is in it. And a CA rep has stated that Skarbrand is merely jumping. He can't fly, as his wings have been destroyed.


Yeah that's later

But, well, then they shouldn't have model him 'jumping' straight up while flapping his wings and not coming down.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/17 15:46:37


Post by: Voss


Really don't like Skarbrand as the LL for Khorne.
Its like doing an American Revolution game and going with Benedict Arnold as the face of the faction. I'd rather have him as the head of a WH2 style 'rogue army' that just randomly picks fights (maybe with a special mechanic for three-way battles).


Interesting roster, however. Some interesting surprises there, but still manages to feel a little thin. [DLC bait!]




Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/17 23:57:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I have to agree RE: Skarbrand.

As Khorne's first LL, why give us someone who Khorne hates and is, for all intents and purposes, a renegade traitor?

As for the roster itself, I really like it. Some surprises and additions, and it doesn't feel anywhere near as lazy as the Kislev one.

By the way, would anyone like a horse? Or a bear? Or perhaps a horse or a bear? Maybe even a bear or a horse?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/18 00:51:34


Post by: Voss


I wonder if they're finally going to change up how mounts are done.

Wasting skill points on the lesser mounts always felt like a punishment when they were a prerequisite chain, but when they aren't, there's almost no point in investing in anything but the final mount.

----
The other problem with skarbrand is the lack of fly. The generic exalted bloodthirster is going to be much more flexible.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/18 18:21:00


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


Skarbrands usefulness as a Legendary Lord will depend entirely on his skill tree. If he can buff his army and be a beast in combat I'm sure he will be a fine choice.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/18 21:45:51


Post by: trexmeyer


Lazy is the best way to describe that Kislev roster.

The roster GW made for Kislev is peak Wolf Pack Leader Wolfgang of the Space Wolves sheathed his Wolf Claws before petting his Dire Wolf Wolfington.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/19 05:07:31


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Voss wrote:
The other problem with skarbrand is the lack of fly. The generic exalted bloodthirster is going to be much more flexible.


In the table top game, Skarbrand (like all Bloodthirsters) had Movement 8 on foot, making him cavalry speed (faster than heavy cav, slower than most fast cav).

So if that translates over to Warhammer 3, Skarbrand should be fast enough. Not as good as Fly, but for a melee Lord that's not the worst thing in the world, not when we have blokes like Vlad just wandering around on foot beating everyone down.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/19 10:22:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 trexmeyer wrote:
Lazy is the best way to describe that Kislev roster.

The roster GW made for Kislev is peak Wolf Pack Leader Wolfgang of the Space Wolves sheathed his Wolf Claws before petting his Dire Wolf Wolfington.
I don't disagree that it's lazy, but I do disagree that it's Flanderised.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/23 02:25:57


Post by: Voss


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
The other problem with skarbrand is the lack of fly. The generic exalted bloodthirster is going to be much more flexible.


In the table top game, Skarbrand (like all Bloodthirsters) had Movement 8 on foot, making him cavalry speed (faster than heavy cav, slower than most fast cav).

So if that translates over to Warhammer 3, Skarbrand should be fast enough. Not as good as Fly, but for a melee Lord that's not the worst thing in the world, not when we have blokes like Vlad just wandering around on foot beating everyone down.


Problem is, foot lords like Vlad... don't beat everybody down. Even against the point and charge AI, they have a hard time meaningfully contributing beyond mulching garbage. Especially lately, even AI characters can and will disengage from combat monsters, while they struggle without the mass to wade through the chaff.
I honestly expect Skarbrand to be a pain to micromanage away from ranged attacks that just hammer into his giant hitbox. Same with the GUO, to be honest (once they finally get around to remembering there are 4 other base factions).
Skarbrand won't have the mass issues, but I fully expect his wide attack animations to pull him out of position and redirect him from where you actually want him to go.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/23 04:14:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think he's able to jump.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/23 04:33:43


Post by: Argive


Foot lords get knocked about too much and dont have mass.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/23 10:41:43


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Voss wrote:
The other problem with skarbrand is the lack of fly. The generic exalted bloodthirster is going to be much more flexible.


In the table top game, Skarbrand (like all Bloodthirsters) had Movement 8 on foot, making him cavalry speed (faster than heavy cav, slower than most fast cav).

So if that translates over to Warhammer 3, Skarbrand should be fast enough. Not as good as Fly, but for a melee Lord that's not the worst thing in the world, not when we have blokes like Vlad just wandering around on foot beating everyone down.


Problem is, foot lords like Vlad... don't beat everybody down. Even against the point and charge AI, they have a hard time meaningfully contributing beyond mulching garbage. Especially lately, even AI characters can and will disengage from combat monsters, while they struggle without the mass to wade through the chaff.
I honestly expect Skarbrand to be a pain to micromanage away from ranged attacks that just hammer into his giant hitbox. Same with the GUO, to be honest (once they finally get around to remembering there are 4 other base factions).
Skarbrand won't have the mass issues, but I fully expect his wide attack animations to pull him out of position and redirect him from where you actually want him to go.


I don't play multi, but in single player the AI is dumb enough that I can put Vlad where he needs to be. Given he's a Vampire though, all he really needs to do is blob enemies up on himself then cast some AoE on them, and if an enemy character is dumb enough to try and take him on he'll be able to manage.

But yeah, not really applicable to Skarbrand. It'll be interesting to see how fast he is, but if he's as fast as regular cav and has a bit of mass he won't be hard to manoeuvre on a macro scale, but maybe he'll have dumb animations like the Dread Saurian. You'd think being a Bloodthirster he'd have animations that are better suited to dualling though, on the table top he had WS 10 after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
Foot lords get knocked about too much and dont have mass.
Swings and roundabouts, foot lords have the benefit of being smaller so they get hit less when surrounded and tend to take less missile damage, but then they're slower and get knocked down.

I think watching too much Legend of Total War on YT I've come to appreciate foot lords more where previously I'd avoid anything on foot.

But yeah, Skarbrand should be plenty fast even on foot if CA follow his table top stats.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/23 13:08:33


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


Foot lords are generally better to have unless they have access to a particularly good mount. Problem with mounts is it increases the unit size rating which can make them easier to hit and surround.

Now in Skarbrands case hes going to be Large so he wont get the normal benefit a smaller foot lord will get. IN addition we just straight don't know how good a combatant Skarbrand will be so to say he will be vulnerable isn't based on any first hand knowledge of his stats.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/23 15:05:19


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Argive wrote:
Foot lords get knocked about too much and dont have mass.
You... you think Skarbrand won't have much mass...



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 00:34:13


Post by: Argive


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Foot lords get knocked about too much and dont have mass.
You... you think Skarbrand won't have much mass...



Skarbrand is going to be single entity monster though...

The skull taker maybe will be a foot lord?

The moment Imrik gets on a dragon or a chariot he's no longer a foot lord.
To me a foot lord is humanoid lords that don't have mounts and are just on foot. Eg. Vlad

There is some benefit though. You don't take damage when you are prone as foot lord. So even if an animation ragdolls you half way across the map if the hit failed you will take no damage and will no take damage while prone. BUT you are still counting as being in combat for the purposes of SOK

But overall foot lords just suck. On my last VC playthrough Vlad just couldn't take out/hold like 2 units of war dancers by himself. Was lame.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 01:08:23


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think Skulltaker will get mount options.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 03:21:38


Post by: Voss


I don't know. They've been pretty stubborn about keeping characters off mounts if there wasn't a tabletop version. I think there are a few exceptions, but for the most part foot people stay that way.

That's if Skulltaker gets pulled in as a DLC LL, of course.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 03:30:12


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think he will, but I think we'll get Valkia first. She's honestly more interesting.

Then again, CA are lazy, so reskinning the existing Herald would be their style.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 04:38:57


Post by: Eumerin


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think Skulltaker will get mount options.


So long as it's not a giant skull...



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 08:10:04


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Argive wrote:
But overall foot lords just suck. On my last VC playthrough Vlad just couldn't take out/hold like 2 units of war dancers by himself. Was lame.


2 units of Wardancers are surprisingly hard for most melee Lords to take out, and if they're supported by a ranged unit they can go into their defensive dance stance thingo to make their melee defence high and not get hit as frequently while the ranged unit does damage.

But yeah, I disagree, foot lords don't suck. You just have to use them differently, mounted lords have more options and often do better AoE attacks, foot lords generally are harder to kill and against the AI do a good job blobbing up the enemy, and no Lord can just charge into 2 units of Wardancers and expect to be fine. Wardancers on a whole suck, but that's one of the few things they can kinda do well.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 16:37:42


Post by: Olthannon


I tend to keep all my lords on foot until they get a bestial mount. Can tie up half an army with a high level lord.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/24 22:22:36


Post by: Argive


Foot is better than horse for the most part. the horse stagger and hit hit box are terrible. Also counts as large for the purposes of bonuses..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Argive wrote:
But overall foot lords just suck. On my last VC playthrough Vlad just couldn't take out/hold like 2 units of war dancers by himself. Was lame.


2 units of Wardancers are surprisingly hard for most melee Lords to take out, and if they're supported by a ranged unit they can go into their defensive dance stance thingo to make their melee defence high and not get hit as frequently while the ranged unit does damage.

But yeah, I disagree, foot lords don't suck. You just have to use them differently, mounted lords have more options and often do better AoE attacks, foot lords generally are harder to kill and against the AI do a good job blobbing up the enemy, and no Lord can just charge into 2 units of Wardancers and expect to be fine. Wardancers on a whole suck, but that's one of the few things they can kinda do well.


I think most lv 40 lords will chew up 2 war dancer units...

Any lord with a monster mount is just better. Better mobility and AOE


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/27 06:57:48


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Argive wrote:
Foot is better than horse for the most part. the horse stagger and hit hit box are terrible. Also counts as large for the purposes of bonuses..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Argive wrote:
But overall foot lords just suck. On my last VC playthrough Vlad just couldn't take out/hold like 2 units of war dancers by himself. Was lame.


2 units of Wardancers are surprisingly hard for most melee Lords to take out, and if they're supported by a ranged unit they can go into their defensive dance stance thingo to make their melee defence high and not get hit as frequently while the ranged unit does damage.

But yeah, I disagree, foot lords don't suck. You just have to use them differently, mounted lords have more options and often do better AoE attacks, foot lords generally are harder to kill and against the AI do a good job blobbing up the enemy, and no Lord can just charge into 2 units of Wardancers and expect to be fine. Wardancers on a whole suck, but that's one of the few things they can kinda do well.


I think most lv 40 lords will chew up 2 war dancer units...

Any lord with a monster mount is just better. Better mobility and AOE


Dunno how much (if at all) the stats change in campaign, but in custom battle I tried a few Lords vs 2 Wardancer units which were only rank 1 and most of the Lords lost, Vlad did not too bad but still lost. Kholek lost, Kroq Gar on his Carnosaur lost. Mannfred on a Dragon won largely because the AI was smart enough to Raise Dead, pull him out of combat and hit with AoE breath/spells rather than just sitting there surrounded by Wardancers.

Believe me, I was surprised, when I play as WE I never take Wardancers because they die way too fast, but apparently melee Lord killing is something they do well.

Granted I'm not trying to argue foot lords are better than lords on a fast monster, of course the latter gives you more options, but the way the AI plays in campaign the advantages of a good foot lord can be exploited. Their advantages clearly don't extend to "charge into 2 units of Wardancers".



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/06/28 06:30:47


Post by: Mr Morden


In camapign Lords are quite a bit weaker near the beginning - often lacking key magical items/ spells etc - Vlad has to get his sword and ring back and if he has not got this when he gets into a fight he can suffer


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/13 15:57:15


Post by: nels1031


Delayed until Early 2022.

Cathay reveal tomorrow, according to Total War's FB page:

Total War: WARHAMMER III will now release in early 2022.

We know this is disappointing, but the extra time means we can accomplish more than we could if we rushed to release this year.

We won’t be staying quiet however, join us tomorrow for the global reveal of Grand Cathay…


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/13 18:13:36


Post by: Mr Morden


Hopefuly this will avoid another Cyberpunk 2077 gak show!

Really looking forward to Grand Cathay info tomorrow!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/13 20:51:52


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Mr Morden wrote:
Hopefuly this will avoid another Cyberpunk 2077 gak show!


Maybe, but I think generally if a game is delayed it’s not because they need the time to put some nice finishing touches on but rather things have gone badly and they need the time to get it to the minimum functional level before selling it.

For a big AAA game even a quick estimate is that it’s probably costing them hundreds of thousands for every week it’s delayed, so I do t think it’s something done lightly and is generally a bit of a concern.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/13 21:53:56


Post by: Voss


No surprise here. The 'official announcement' and first look was several months too early, and the August hiatus was a clear sign that 2021 was optimistic.

Add in the trend of delays in the industry in general AND Covid delays (though this industry shouldn't have this much trouble working from 'home' or at least distanced), and it was unlikely in the first place.

Cathay will be interesting to see, but I'd rather see the pre-order race and the other three chaos armies.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 14:48:29


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


So it kinda seems like it shaping out sort of like I had imagined. Each Chaos god is going to be pitted against one of the factions.

Kislev vs Khorne
Cathay vs Tzeentch
Ogre Kingdoms vs Nurgle or Slaanesh
Chaos Dwarfs vs Nurgle or Slaanesh

I mean I know we haven't gotten confirmation about Chaos Dwarfs at least but it seems like that's what its building up to be.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 15:50:47


Post by: Olthannon


That was a very cool trailer. I wonder how much of Cathay and the ideas of the army existed before now. Its interesting to see Elven styles within the army design as well as stuff which the Skaven would happily count among their armies as well. Looks set to be an awesome game.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 17:53:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Kislev vs Khorne
Cathay vs Tzeentch
Ogre Kingdoms vs Nurgle or Slaanesh
Chaos Dwarfs vs Nurgle or Slaanesh
Not enough slots for that in base game.

It's 5 Chaos Legendary Lords (one for each Chaos God, and then everyone assumes Be'lakor), 2 for Cathay, 2 for Kislev and then likely two for the pre-order race (99% Ogre Kingdoms). Chaos Dwarfs won't be part of this at launch.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 18:37:50


Post by: chaos0xomega


Cathay is basically exactly what I think everyone expected, which somehow makes it kinda boring IMO.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 19:08:07


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Kislev vs Khorne
Cathay vs Tzeentch
Ogre Kingdoms vs Nurgle or Slaanesh
Chaos Dwarfs vs Nurgle or Slaanesh
Not enough slots for that in base game.

It's 5 Chaos Legendary Lords (one for each Chaos God, and then everyone assumes Be'lakor), 2 for Cathay, 2 for Kislev and then likely two for the pre-order race (99% Ogre Kingdoms). Chaos Dwarfs won't be part of this at launch.


8 base factions seems like a fine way to start. I dont think it will be based on the Legendary Lords, but the factions. And yes, one will be a pre-order race (ugg, how I hate that). But they will all be in the base game when launched.

Whether or not they will be playable is a different matter.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 21:27:06


Post by: trexmeyer


chaos0xomega wrote:
Cathay is basically exactly what I think everyone expected, which somehow makes it kinda boring IMO.


I didn't expect them to have dragons ripped straight out of WoW or silly flying lamps, but the revealed units are very much in-line with modern GW.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 22:18:32


Post by: Voss


 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
So it kinda seems like it shaping out sort of like I had imagined. Each Chaos god is going to be pitted against one of the factions.

Kislev vs Khorne
Cathay vs Tzeentch
Ogre Kingdoms vs Nurgle or Slaanesh
Chaos Dwarfs vs Nurgle or Slaanesh

I mean I know we haven't gotten confirmation about Chaos Dwarfs at least but it seems like that's what its building up to be.

Nope. That's not how CA does things.
Next/Last base game trailer will be Nurgle/Slaanesh.

Ogres (or whoever the preorder race is, on the really unlikely off chance it isn't ogres) will have their own solo trailer. Chaos Dwarfs (in the likely case that they aren't the pre-order race) will likely have filler enemies in their spots on the map, same way Tomb Kings did for TW2.

---

Trailer was... fine. I look forward to Final Fantasy Total War in the future.

trexmeyer wrote:I didn't expect them to have dragons ripped straight out of WoW or silly flying lamps, but the revealed units are very much in-line with modern GW.

Eh. That's been the stock 'Asian Dragon' (though usually called something else) since the AD&D days.

chaso0xomega wrote:Cathay is basically exactly what I think everyone expected, which somehow makes it kinda boring IMO.

Yeah. I think I expected crossbows more than the grenade launchers, and didn't expect actual wings on the Kirin air cavalry, but that's about it. Even the floating mountains are a bit of cliche at this point.

I honestly think they played it overly safe. The air cav might as well be the models for the dark elf regiment of renown (flying dark riders), and the bull pulled cannons look like a reskin of the Kislev bear cannon.
A lot of the rest seem like reused Three Kingdom assets.

So... the Celestial Dragon Emperor predating the Old Ones. Thats... quite the retcon. But then I remember the Jack Yeovil novels, and a Cathayan Tzeentchian agent that painted an already chaos-corrupted Empire of Cathay.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 22:23:22


Post by: trexmeyer


No, I mean dragons that turn into humans.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 22:34:16


Post by: Voss


 trexmeyer wrote:
No, I mean dragons that turn into humans.


Yeah? That's an even older AD&D staple (creepy side-show romance in Dragonlance for one thing), that has older roots non-D&D roots, iirc (Lots of chinese and japanese myths about dragons are about people or animals becoming dragons, at least the western version of those stories are).
It would honestly be weirder (and refreshing, IMO) if they didn't.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/14 23:29:37


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Voss wrote:
Yeah. I think I expected crossbows more than the grenade launchers...
They have both.

Voss wrote:
So... the Celestial Dragon Emperor predating the Old Ones. Thats... quite the retcon.
Is it? There are tons of things in Warhammer that pre-date the Old Ones.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 02:10:35


Post by: Eumerin


Voss wrote:

Yeah. I think I expected crossbows more than the grenade launchers


They're hand cannons. And the Chinese really did use them, starting in the thirteenth or possibly fourteenth centuries. I expect that we'll see crossbowmen as well, though, and hand cannons will just be another missile weapon option - albeit one better suited to knocking down the really big nasties that frequently turn up in Chaos armies.

No, I mean dragons that turn into humans.


This is normal in Chinese mythology. For example, in the famous Chinese novel 'The Journey to the West', one of the dragon kings disguises himself as a human scholar in order to test a local fortune-teller. One of his sons spends most of the novel shape-shifted into a horse to serve as a mount for the monk who is making the titular journey. There's nothing unusual about dragons in Chinese stories shape-shifting to pass as humans or other creatures.

Nor are dragons the only creatures that do so. Chinese beliefs about fox spirits (Huli Jing, or Kyubi) are very similar to those of the Japanese (Kitsune). The Koreans also have similar legends (Kumiho), except that their fox spirits are *always* malevolent. 'The Legend of the White Snake' is an old story about an actual snake that attains human intelligence, changes her shape into a human woman, and falls in love with a human healer. And there are more.

What is unusual is the idea of a dragon personally ruling over the humans, as appears to be the case here. The historical emperors were metaphorically linked to dragons, but there was no claim that they were actually dragons. Dragons ruled their own domains, and served the Jade Emperor, who ruled the heavens.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 18:16:06


Post by: Olthannon


chaos0xomega wrote:Cathay is basically exactly what I think everyone expected, which somehow makes it kinda boring IMO.


Yeah when I order food from a nice restaurant and it turns out exactly as I expected that is just the worst. Hate that. Would much prefer random ingredients and hair in my food instead.

trexmeyer wrote:No, I mean dragons that turn into humans.


Most dragon folklore from across the world revolves around dragons shapeshifting. It's one of the biggest things about about them?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 18:16:52


Post by: trexmeyer


I don't know how other creatures come into, but if it that aspect of dragons stems from Chinese mythology, then I stand corrected.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 19:08:21


Post by: Eumerin


 Olthannon wrote:
Most dragon folklore from across the world revolves around dragons shapeshifting. It's one of the biggest things about about them?


Western dragons don't. They act pretty much exclusively as greedy, intelligent, forces of destruction. They exist to cause problems that are surmounted when the hero defeats them.

Asian dragons, on the other hand, are very much the opposite, and are part of the celestial order.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 19:12:39


Post by: trexmeyer


The only western story (excluding WoW) that I can think of that involves a dragon shapechanging is Eustace being turned into on in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 19:39:37


Post by: Mr Morden


 trexmeyer wrote:
The only western story (excluding WoW) that I can think of that involves a dragon shapechanging is Eustace being turned into on in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.


Dragons in D+D do it ALOT. The novels are full of Silver Dragon ladies falling in lover with their...Riders....


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 19:44:56


Post by: trexmeyer


 Mr Morden wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
The only western story (excluding WoW) that I can think of that involves a dragon shapechanging is Eustace being turned into on in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.


Dragons in D+D do it ALOT. The novels are full of Silver Dragon ladies falling in lover with their...Riders....


I only know Neverwinter and Ravenloft. Which setting is that occurring in? Dragonlance?

Edit: Is it Neverwinter or Forgotten Realms?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 19:45:49


Post by: Voss


Then you're both ignoring examples:
Dragonlance- Silvara the Silver Dragon, circa 1985 (introduded in Dragons of Winter Night). She refers to a vague 'sister' who was in love with a legendary hero (Huma) in much the same way.

Gold and Silver dragons in D&D have had shapeshifting as a basic listed ability since at least 2nd edition (1989 Monstrous Compendium), if not earlier (so regardless of setting, just a universal trait of dragons). Other dragons can simply learn polymorph and do it anyway.

3rd edition even had the fetish for half dragons and dragonblooded sorcerers (how'd you think that happens?)

Pathfinder has at least one green dragon that bops in and out in Queen of Thorns (though obviously that's D&D derived)

Slayers anime has shapeshifted dragons in a D&D-esque land (though obviously that straddles an eastern/western divide for all that its very clearly based on western RPGs)

I could dig for more, but... why bother?
Western dragons as shapeshifters has been part of the genre for nearly 40 years now.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 19:48:30


Post by: trexmeyer


I can't ignore something I don't know. That's an unknown unknown.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 19:57:39


Post by: Mr Morden


Julie Kagawa has a whole series about shapeshifting Dragons.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 20:07:15


Post by: Voss


 trexmeyer wrote:
I can't ignore something I don't know. That's an unknown unknown.



You can when you repeatedly get told it exists, rather than insist you don't know and just auto-repeat 'Simpsons did it!'

Also in the list-
random guy protecting the dragon eggs in the Witcher (novels or Witcher 3)

Obviously Maleficent in the original Disney version of Sleeping Beauty.

Here's some more
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Weredragon
for western non-D&D, this includes both Dreseden Files and Earthsea (which makes it a contender for one of the classic western fantasy takes on the concept)


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/15 20:15:45


Post by: trexmeyer


Voss wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
I can't ignore something I don't know. That's an unknown unknown.



You can when you repeatedly get told it exists, rather than insist you don't know and just auto-repeat 'Simpsons did it!'

Also in the list-
random guy protecting the dragon eggs in the Witcher (novels or Witcher 3)

Obviously Maleficent in the original Disney version of Sleeping Beauty.


Why are you so bloody combatitive over this? What exactly is wrong with you?

I said it was like WoW. I was corrected concerning Chinese Mythology. I admitted to being corrected. Then we ventured into strictly western works and I said the only one I knew of was X. Then D&D was brought up. I didn't know where it occurred and asked which setting it occurred in.

Where did I deny it multiple times?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here, I quoted myself just for you.

trexmeyer wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Cathay is basically exactly what I think everyone expected, which somehow makes it kinda boring IMO.


I didn't expect them to have dragons ripped straight out of WoW or silly flying lamps, but the revealed units are very much in-line with modern GW.


trexmeyer wrote:I don't know how other creatures come into, but if it that aspect of dragons stems from Chinese mythology, then I stand corrected.


trexmeyer wrote:The only western story (excluding WoW) that I can think of that involves a dragon shapechanging is Eustace being turned into on in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.


trexmeyer wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
The only western story (excluding WoW) that I can think of that involves a dragon shapechanging is Eustace being turned into on in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader.


Dragons in D+D do it ALOT. The novels are full of Silver Dragon ladies falling in lover with their...Riders....


I only know Neverwinter and Ravenloft. Which setting is that occurring in? Dragonlance?

Edit: Is it Neverwinter or Forgotten Realms?



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/16 01:26:18


Post by: Eumerin


I guess I need to repeat/clarify what I posted above.

Dragons in Chinese myths and legends shapeshift.

Dragons in Western myths and legends do not.

Every single reference listed above to a western dragon shapeshifting is a contemporary story, and not something tied to a classical myth or story.

Also, just to throw it out there, the original AD&D gold dragon was based off of the Chinese version of the creature, based on the artwork found in the 1st Edition Monster Manual. Presumably that's where the writers got the idea of dragons shape-shifting into humans.


Famous appearances of dragons in historical western culture include -

Beowulf (fought in the third part of the epic)
The Tarasque (supposedly tamed by St. Martha - the one from the Bible - and then killed by peasants in a nearby village when she took the tarasque there to show that it was no longer a threat)
St. George's famous opponent (the only old story I'm aware of that involves the classic trope of the hero rescuing a princess from being sacrificed to a dragon)
The Revelation of St. John the Divine - Satan is repeatedly referred to as a (presumably metaphorical) dragon.
Fafnir - A dwarf cursed into becoming a dragon in the Volsung Cycle
Midgard Serpent - One of Loki's sons; a great dragon that encircles the world, and that will kill Odin and Thor (and be killed by the latter) during Ragnarok
Nidhog - A wyrm that lives at the base of the World Tree in Norse mythology, and gnaws its roots

And if you want to include sea serpents -

Perseus famously rescued Andromeda from being sacrificed to a sea serpent while returning home after killing Medusa (which makes this a second "save the princess from the dragon" story, again if you include sea serpents).


Of the bunch listed above, the only shape shifting involved is Fafnir. And in his case, it's an involuntary curse.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/16 05:21:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


For those who know, how do dragons feature in Japanese mythology? I'm just wondering how they could be worked into Nippon (which, weirdly, has a real chance of being added to the game).


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/16 18:06:11


Post by: Olthannon


Eumerin wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Most dragon folklore from across the world revolves around dragons shapeshifting. It's one of the biggest things about about them?


Western dragons don't. They act pretty much exclusively as greedy, intelligent, forces of destruction. They exist to cause problems that are surmounted when the hero defeats them.

Asian dragons, on the other hand, are very much the opposite, and are part of the celestial order.


Not entirely the case, dragons in slavic culture shift in human or draconic forms.

Japanese and Chinese dragon mythology intertwines. Historically, Japanese dragon myth comes from China, Korea and India. So entirely possible to have some in Nippon.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/20 04:44:11


Post by: Eumerin


 Olthannon wrote:


Japanese and Chinese dragon mythology intertwines. Historically, Japanese dragon myth comes from China, Korea and India. So entirely possible to have some in Nippon.


More accurately, China was the lone "super power" in its part of the world, and as a result the surrounding settled cultures such as Korea and Japan were heavily influenced by Chinese styles and customs. China itself picked up some influence from India due to the introduction of and influence from Buddhism, and that also flowed out to the surrounding settled cultures. The elite in surrounding nations sent their children to China to be educated, and those children brought back Chinese ways when they returned home.

Off the top of my head, I'm not familiar with any Japanese stories involving dragons. They also don't seem to be as prominent in Japanese art as they are in China. But dragons have been important enough in Japan that a couple of very famous and important warships (they were the first purpose-built fleet carriers anywhere in the world) - Soryu and Hiryu - were given names incorporating the Japanese word for dragon.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/21 12:26:54


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Olthannon wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:Cathay is basically exactly what I think everyone expected, which somehow makes it kinda boring IMO.


Yeah when I order food from a nice restaurant and it turns out exactly as I expected that is just the worst. Hate that. Would much prefer random ingredients and hair in my food instead.


An Intellectually dishonest hot take if there ever was one. The proper analogy here would be "I order food from a nice restaurant and it turns out to be the same as what I can get at any local hole in the wall for half the price."

I expected there to be some unique spin on Cathay that might distinguish it from the at this point stereotypical depictions of fantasy China.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/21 12:52:27


Post by: Overread


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:Cathay is basically exactly what I think everyone expected, which somehow makes it kinda boring IMO.


Yeah when I order food from a nice restaurant and it turns out exactly as I expected that is just the worst. Hate that. Would much prefer random ingredients and hair in my food instead.


An Intellectually dishonest hot take if there ever was one. The proper analogy here would be "I order food from a nice restaurant and it turns out to be the same as what I can get at any local hole in the wall for half the price."

I expected there to be some unique spin on Cathay that might distinguish it from the at this point stereotypical depictions of fantasy China.


Except that almost all of Old World is built upon the 80-90s era of fantasy inspirations. It's very foundation is basically a dark gothic take on fantasy tropes and themes. Cathay is built upon that foundation so of course its going to be similar to established tropes and themes of their setting. It's just 20-30 years late in actually arriving to the setting outside of small tid bits in lore.

It's an old lore and old setting so its going to be old style in what you get rather than being fully "progressive".



It's like going to an Old English Pub and getting solid "Pub Grub". You know what you're getting into from the outside and whilst it might not be winning any originality awards in some fancy London setting, its doing a solid good job of giving you a satisfying meal.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/21 13:04:23


Post by: Orlanth


chaos0xomega wrote:


I expected there to be some unique spin on Cathay that might distinguish it from the at this point stereotypical depictions of fantasy China.


WHFB is built on archetypes.
French/Arthurian Bretonnia
Holy Roman Empire, Empire
Araby
etc

Cathay and Nippon should be as it is a romanticised fantasy China and Japan.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/21 14:23:00


Post by: Eumerin


The real question, imo, is what exactly did chaosxomega expect? It's fantasy China. It needs to look like fantasy China, and it does. It sounds as if chaosxomega was expecting something that didn't look anything like China, except for the visual ethnicity of the troops.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/21 15:50:16


Post by: chaos0xomega


Thats a misconstrued argument. I was pretty clear in saying that Cathay was *exactly* what I expected it to be, which as a result makes them boring.


With the tidbits dropped previously that Cathay would have some sort of a twist to it or be something unexpected, one could have been led to believe that Cathay could have been something unexpected instead.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/21 15:50:36


Post by: Mr Morden


new Cathay lore post on Total War Blog

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-grand-cathay-lore/

In case you haven’t heard, Grand Cathay is coming to Total War: WARHAMMER III. In the thrilling conclusion of the WARHAMMER trilogy – well, not counting the years of live support we’ll be offering – Grand Cathay joins the four Chaos Gods and the Kislevite peoples as one of our factions that will fight for the future of the world. But who, exactly, are they? Oft mentioned throughout the annals of Warhammer history, they never quite made it to the foreground until now.

Grand Cathay is a massive and incredibly powerful empire situated in the east of the Warhammer World, beyond the Dark Lands, across the Mountains of Mourn and past the Great Maw – the gaping wound in the land caused by Grand Cathay’s astromasters millennia ago. It covers a landmass larger than the Empire, Bretonnia, and many other nations combined. Vast cities pockmark the landscape, with huge populations watched over by the ruling Dragons – the Celestial Dragon Emperor, his consort the Moon Empress, and their children.

To the North lies the Great Bastion, constructed thousands of years past by the Dragon Emperor himself and imbued with much of his magic. A humongous wall that has stood for aeons against the ever-present threat of Chaos. In times gone by and for many millennia, Chaos has been the most serious threat to Grand Cathay. Had the Emperor and Moon Empress wished it, sheer force of numbers and powerful magics and artillery could have dominated much of the land to the west, but they have been content to rule and defend their already formidable nation.

Harmony is the driving force behind Cathayan society. The teachings of the Dragon Emperor are such that everyone must work in concert with themselves and the land for the betterment of all and to find their natural place. This drives everything, from their magic lores of Yin and Yang to how the Dragons govern their people. Far from tyrants or aloof aristocrats, the Dragons act as teachers and wardens for the populace. They see little point in creating an imbalance between mortals and themselves when the ever-present threat of Chaos will happily destroy them all.

Similarly, the Dragons are not treated as gods, nor do they demand worship. They are immensely powerful beings, rulers by magical and physical right rather than mysterious divinity. The iconography of the Dragons is common-place and ever-present throughout society, but because they are very real, very present, and very powerful rulers. They are treated by the people with the reverence such beings deserve and speaking ill of them, especially if you are not native to Grand Cathay, is a quick way to get yourself killed.

The Dragons often move among the people in human form. While still evidently far beyond a commoner, they only transform to their draconic selves when there is need, embracing their heritage to lay waste to a battlefield and fly far above their forces. In war, the Harmony of the Cathayan way of life is ever-present, their forces acting in concert to lay waste to enemies with devastating precision and calm.

In WARHAMMER III, our focus is on two main areas: Northern Cathay with the Storm Dragon Miao Ying and the Great Bastion, and Western Cathay with the Iron Dragon Zhao Ming and the Ivory Road. The land of the Storm Dragon includes the fortress city of Nan-Gau, never conquered or sacked, despite the many wars that have met its borders. Naturally, the Great Bastion dominates much of the landscape, with its massive gates and huge patrols of troops fending off attacks from Chaos. The Eastern Steppes make up the lands beyond, thoroughly infested with Chaos of every stripe.

Miao Ying is arguably the most powerful Dragon alive save her mother and father. Immense power and immense responsibility land on her shoulders, and she can seem cold and aloof in comparison to her siblings. The defense of the realm, the future of Grand Cathay, and much more is quite the burden to bear.

Meanwhile, the Iron Dragon must make do with a less defended, if less chaotic (and Chaotic), area of the world. The Western Provinces contain beasts and men of all sorts coming from further West, as well as the regular incursions of Skaven and Ogres from the Warpstone Desert and Mountains of Mourn. The creation of the Great Maw still hangs heavy on this area, even as an uneasy peace maintains.

Zhao Ming is a natural born warrior, though less innately skilled than his sister to the North. He is a talented alchemist and shows great preference for the art among his armies – much to the chagrin of those that find the insidious magics worrying for the Empire. His life-long station so close to the Great Maw and all that warpstone mean many fear his mind is permanently damaged from the exposure, and any eccentricities or erratic behaviour he displays is very worrying to his siblings.

Of course, stability and prosperity have not reigned forever and are unlikely to continue without a fight. The history of Grand Cathay is longer than even Chaos, originating more than 5,000 years previous, when the Celestial Dragon Emperor ruled the land before the coming of the Old Ones. He learned how to take the form of a human to gather the tribes, and when Chaos began to sweep the world he defended his burgeoning empire, eventually constructing the Great Bastion to keep the hordes at bay.

It has been attacked on innumerable occasions, damaged, and even sometimes breached, but still the Great Bastion stands as powerful a vanguard against Chaos as ever, constantly maintained and garrisoned by massive armies. Only Tzeentch, known to Grand Cathay as Chi’an Chi, has managed to significantly infiltrate the Empire, His cults being a common cause of disruption and rebellion within.

Trade is the main reason the Western factions know of Grand Cathay’s existence and its primary interaction with them. For outsiders, it is a realm of infinite riches and pleasures unknown, seemingly immune from the endless terrors that prowl the outside world. While this is far from the truth, the absolute economic power of the Ivory Road cannot be disputed, and those that make their living along it are evidence of that. For Grand Cathay, there is plenty to gain from an outside world with technology, trinkets, and beasts that are all foreign to them.

The most tumultuous time in Grand Cathay’s history came when a combination of invasions of Chaos from the North and the Monkey King from the South, alongside a four-century disappearance of the Dragon Emperor and the Moon Empress, nearly led the Empire to ruin. Then, more than any other time, the natural competition between the Emperor’s children reached its peak, and Grand Cathay was essentially divided into warring states. This allowed the Monkey King to take power and claim dominion over the Empire, an act heinous enough to galvanize the warring siblings into once again putting aside their differences to fight for their father’s throne. At the key moment, the Emperor and Empress returned and helped to defeat the Monkey King, who fled South. Little is known of him or his fate.

Perhaps yet darker days may be on the horizon. Events the world over are conspiring to require the attention of even these isolationists. Chaos amasses beyond the Great Bastion like never before. Rebellion and squabbles between local factions are reaching new heights within the Empire. Whatever machinations the Celestial Dragon Emperor has been planning continue to come to fruition – but to what end, only he knows. What are you going to do about it?


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/21 21:36:49


Post by: Olthannon


That's really cool Mr Morden, thanks for sharing! One thing I've really enjoyed about the Total War games is that they are clearly Warhammer fans and keen to have fun and explore the lore and setting. I guess having brought out that Three Kingdoms game recently, they've probably put some good ideas forward in the design phase about how the Cathay faction should look and work within the game. Sounds like they've got a cool storyline going with the different legendary lords.

I was originally thinking of doing my first playthrough as Kislev, but I'd be hard pressed not to start as Cathay now.

I'm really looking forward to trying it out.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/09/22 10:38:33


Post by: H.B.M.C.


It's good that the Monkey King is still part of the background.

I want the second expansion to be 'The Monkey & The Magic'.

Be entirely Cathay-focused, expanding on the Monkey King's forces and a big Tzeenchian cult (think combo Cathay/Tzeench hybrid army) as the adversary.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/01 14:53:51


Post by: Mr Morden


New video teaser up




Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/03 10:59:02


Post by: Commander Cain


I am really liking the sound of Cathay. I enjoyed playing as the dwarfs for their very defensive style and I feel like Cathay will be going the same route. Definitely the faction I will be playing most once this game releases!

The major differences look to be their use of magic (including that sweet looking defensive spell!), and more squishy units on the frontline. I am sure the DLC in the far future will also add some crazy new units that will be great fun to mess around with.

I do wish we had gotten a bit more gameplay footage or even better, a look at the campaign map by now. Chaos Daemons in general don't really interest me so if we just get faction reveals until the end of the year it could get pretty stale. Fingers crossed we get something this month!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/03 14:07:38


Post by: Voss


The opening shot is really amazing. The hard border between the green city (complete with floating rocks with vegetation) and the stark wasteland outside it is pretty amazing.

Interesting that Horrors have arcing fire (like bows/crossbows) rather than direct line fire like gunpowder units. That makes them a lot more useful behind some warrior or forsaken meatshields.

The narrator was perhaps overdoing the accent. Sounded.. inauthentic and jarring to a degree.


@commander cain- irrc they're supposed to talk about sieges at some point soon. Yeah, according to the July blog post (posted in September? the url has 'september news,' but the date next to the writers name is july), they're going to talk about sieges:

With the Grand reveal will come information on siege battles, as the incredible power of the Old World’s largest empire must stand resolute against the tides of Chaos, their Great Bastion holding firm. We will show you not only unique elements for Cathay, but also the general system changes that support every siege battle going forward.

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-september-news/


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/05 22:09:42


Post by: Olthannon


Yeah I was thinking I'd start as Kislev but now I really want to play as Cathay. The draw of a new faction and the fact it is totally unexplored land that has only been vaguely discussed in the lore will be fascinating.


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's good that the Monkey King is still part of the background.

I want the second expansion to be 'The Monkey & The Magic'.

Be entirely Cathay-focused, expanding on the Monkey King's forces and a big Tzeenchian cult (think combo Cathay/Tzeench hybrid army) as the adversary.


Well I notice in the trailers that Cathay are up against Tzeentch, perhaps that will be one of the AI in the campaign to start.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/11 23:03:42


Post by: Overread


MASSIVE Siege update
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-siege-rework/




Not only are the maps BIGGER and with more internals to the city area, but they've also fleshed them out with choke points and a small base building element of building defensive positions like barricades and such to further constrain troops moving into a city. Which likely means that, unlike earlier TW games, you can't just rush the wall; take the gates and then run cavalry around to easily flank behind defenders all the time.

It also sounds like they are trying to make it possible to not only hold the city itself but also make you use more of the wall length as a defender by increasing the control range of the towers. This all might well make it far more attractive to an attacker to hit multiple wall segments and gates at once rather than focusing on a single edge and smashing through in just one spot.



Indeed as I watch it I do wonder if there's a second video for attackers getting bonuses as well or if the job of attacker has become harder; accepting that this might mean that sieges become much more of a multi-army necessity when taking big settlement.s


ALSO Minor settlement battles are in!!!


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/11 23:13:41


Post by: Voss


Woof. That's big. We'll see exactly how effective that is in practice (rather than a heavily edited overview video), but the multiple levels alone is pretty big.

Random observations:
Horrors climbing walls on plain old wooden ladders lacks a little something

Expect the 'Mortal Empires' campaign for TW3 to take a good long while. Regardless of any other changes, they have to now rework _all_ the siege maps for this new functionality. And test it.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/12 07:20:56


Post by: Mr Morden


They also said that the attackers can attack the wall itself


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/12 12:42:10


Post by: Commodus Leitdorf


Im glad they are doing a re-work and trying to make sieges better. Right now they are a total joke. Attacking or defending the walls are useless.

Defending its not worth keeps guys on the wall, its better to fall back to streets and choke points. And for attacking, just sit back and unload missles/magic and wait for the army losses to kick in.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/13 20:05:42


Post by: trexmeyer


The only current issue with sieges IMO is that autoresolve doesn't work correctly for them unless your army is vastly more powerful. It looks like you're still going to be forced to manually fight sieges AND they're going to be harder to win as an attacker OR you'll still be able to cheese it with artillery/flyers/magic and nothing really changes.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/13 20:27:22


Post by: Overread


trexmeyer wrote:
The only current issue with sieges IMO is that autoresolve doesn't work correctly for them unless your army is vastly more powerful. It looks like you're still going to be forced to manually fight sieges AND they're going to be harder to win as an attacker OR you'll still be able to cheese it with artillery/flyers/magic and nothing really changes.


That's basically what auto-resolve is there for.
They've put a lot of work into it for TW Warhammer because it was the only way, originally, to do sea battles, but even with all the work its just too hard to really have a "fair" auto resolve result and that's before you throw in wildcards like skaven - armies where many units are totally rubbish but work because of how you use them in the game. Same as something like Chariots - in auto resolve they might die in close combat, but in manual gaming you can slice through loads of ranged units and rank up a huge number of kills with them if correctly used.


And that's the real issue - auto resolve isn't fast playing the game with two tactically sound AI fighting it out; its just running numbers from the two armies against each other with some weighting on them. It's really only ever designed to help you get past auto win/lose situations so that you don't have to play every fight when one side has 2 units and the other has 20 and the result is a forgone conclusion. Otherwise the way the game works is it intendeds you to play the siege battles out in live.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/15 22:22:16


Post by: Voss


Tzeentch campaign mechanics!

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-tzeentch-campaign-mechanics/

-Changing of the Ways (special actions using grimoires):
Transfer Settlement
Transfer control and ownership of one settlement to a new faction. This can be your faction or another.

Open Gates
Open the gates of a major settlement with walls, for any battles in that settlement in the next few turns.

Force Rebellion
Causes a rebellion in a region, spawning an army for the owner to contend with.

Track Army
You are given the line of sight of a target army.

Reveal Faction Intentions
Shows the plans of all armies a target faction controls.

Reveal Shroud
Gives complete vision of a target faction’s territory.

Halt Faction
All characters – so armies and heroes – have their movement halted and disabledfor the faction’s following turn.

Give War Co-ordination Target
Gives a faction a war co-ordination target even if they are not your ally.

Break Alliance
Break the military or defensive alliance between two factions.

Force War
Force a war between two factions.


That's quite a list. Some are locked by the tech tree, but some are simply amazing. Some are brute force, but I really like the 'Halt Faction' option. Killing the possibility of reinforcing a city you're marching on is great when the AI is playing defense.

On the other hand, this sounds really unfun in multiplayer campaigns.

- Winds of Magic manipulation. Depends, on how they changed the winds mechanic, which they don't explain at this juncture.

- Chaos Corruption is now god specific and gives various benefits.

- Found cults in foreign cities (like pirate havens or skaven undercities)

-Teleport stance, complete with ambush. (locked by tech tree)

Grimoires are a resource for various techs and abilities.

- All Tzeentch units have a barrier (special shield with hit points) which can be buffed by a Unholy Manifestation with enough chaos corruption.

Future blogs in the coming weeks: magic system and lores in the coming weeks and then corruption changes 'at a more appropriate time'



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/15 22:29:34


Post by: Overread


I wonder how many of those new Tzeentch units might appear in AoS or Old World.

It looked like they had Chaos Champions on disks and some new cavalry


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/16 00:42:47


Post by: Voss


Trying to decide if the Fatescribes are in there at 0:27. Above the cheering horror's head, there seems to be a large disc with two bodies riding it. It doesn't really look like the model, but hey, could also be something new. Hmm. There are more at 0:23. One is clearly a burning chariot with exalted flamer, but the others seem to have multiple horrors.

Units of chaos chosen/champions on discs are frightening.

The cav, not so much. Doomfire Warlocks didn't impress me much with DE, and micromanaged caster units with spell charges are a bit too much micro for me.

Flamers have some jumping ability it seems (jump and nuke?).

Not sure about a battleline of forsaken, blue horrors and chaos spawn. Fitting, but fragile.


----
Ooh. I misread the Cults bit. All four chaos powers get cults.
Tzeentch gets grimoires, more grimoires, income (both of these require high winds of magic, not sure how that works- do they stop if the winds drop below a certain level?) or sacrifice the cult to make the Winds crazy good in the region.

Nurgle will likely get another plague mechanic, maybe replenishment like Norsca?, Slaanesh... raiding and sacking bonuses, maybe slaves like dark elves? The AoS Slaanesh releases certainly make me think that. Maybe leadership or psychology buffs/debuffs..

-----
The map seems interesting. Apparently Kairos is planted outside Cathay for an invasion, but DLC lords will be elsewhere. From the big Kislev vs Khorne focus, I presume Skarbrand is similarly close to Kislev. Leaving Nurgle and Slaanesh puttering about in the middle, either to fight each other or act as spoilers for the more aggressively placed chaos gods (lore check says Slaanesh to the west to mess with Khorne and Nurgle more to the east to mess with Tzeentch).


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/16 01:06:36


Post by: Eumerin


Voss wrote:

-----
The map seems interesting. Apparently Kairos is planted outside Cathay for an invasion, but DLC lords will be elsewhere. From the big Kislev vs Khorne focus, I presume Skarbrand is similarly close to Kislev. Leaving Nurgle and Slaanesh puttering about in the middle, either to fight each other or act as spoilers for the more aggressively placed chaos gods (lore check says Slaanesh to the west to mess with Khorne and Nurgle more to the east to mess with Tzeentch).


And the as yet unannounced, but almost certainly guaranteed pre-order bonus DLC Ogre Kingdoms somewhere in the middle.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/16 01:38:18


Post by: Voss


Eumerin wrote:
Voss wrote:

-----
The map seems interesting. Apparently Kairos is planted outside Cathay for an invasion, but DLC lords will be elsewhere. From the big Kislev vs Khorne focus, I presume Skarbrand is similarly close to Kislev. Leaving Nurgle and Slaanesh puttering about in the middle, either to fight each other or act as spoilers for the more aggressively placed chaos gods (lore check says Slaanesh to the west to mess with Khorne and Nurgle more to the east to mess with Tzeentch).


And the as yet unannounced, but almost certainly guaranteed pre-order bonus DLC Ogre Kingdoms somewhere in the middle.


Sure. But as far as campaign objectives for the chaos gods, I don't think they're going to be significant beyond 'sometimes they take stuff you want' and maybe a couple specific locations
And maybe not even that, depending on how the campaign map is oriented/laid out and particularly how twisty and muddled the Mountains of Mourn get in terms of mountain passes and slowing movement. The Worlds Edge mountains were rather nightmarish and slow for anyone without special movement modes.

I'm still puzzled as to how they're going to make all that geography interesting, especially after taking the time to drag the TW2 map all the way over to Pigbarter and Flayed Rock. Granted they can just cut the southern reaches out for the TW3 'main campaign,' but they're going to have to deal with that vast expanse eventually. It would suck if half the new factions have to march for the first 50+ turns just to get to play in the Old World.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/18 16:09:26


Post by: Eumerin


The blog post covering Kislev's campaign mechanics is up.

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-kislev-campaign-mechanics/?fbclid=IwAR1jUS4tRVevbeHUIFbXLfgIbRKT5lIm7EFDTkK8IQlBoys1NvSGDw66nRA

Devotion, training lords before they enter your pool, and more. Take a look! I'll note right off that there are three Kislevite cities, but only two lord's mentioned in the blog post. I'm guessing the third city will eventually get a DLC lord.

Other minor items - Ogres are mentioned in a laundry-list of Kislev's neighbors. They're to the east, which is expected. But the mention suggests they might start quite close. Also, the Skaven Hell-Pit will be on the map.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/19 00:03:01


Post by: Voss


Not really sold on Queen Kat (and Kislev in general) being all about bowing down before the Ice God.

The god invocation system seems ripped right out of Troy.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/19 01:38:49


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think the smaller TW games are exactly where they test out mechanics for the larger ones.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/19 02:39:19


Post by: Voss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the smaller TW games are exactly where they test out mechanics for the larger ones.


Oh, they absolutely are. I just didn't expect to see it for Kislev, in a weird mishmash of... Orthodox Christian Paganism.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/20 16:49:42


Post by: Voss


Cathay vs Tzeentch Great Bastion Battle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2muTpEXIg9E&t=7s

Heavily edited and narrated as usual. Which is unfortunate, since its hard to tell how the siege would really play out if they weren't going for a scripted display. Like if all those tzeentch fliers swoop around to attack ranged units and disrupt the Cathayan 'reserve units' mustering in the back.


Highlight for me is the Soul Grinder quietly sneaking it. Almost didn't recognize it since it isn't grossly out of scale like the model is.

Kairos' animations are... surprisingly chill? He's got an almost cocky saunter at times (particularly the end of the video)


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/20 18:00:29


Post by: Overread


I think the issue with the soulgrinder model is that its very static in pose and rather rigid. It doesn't really show itself moving so much as standing. Its one of a few "stiff" demonic models like the Demon Prince that don't really, in my view, "work" as good as many others.



Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/20 21:59:16


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Didn't seem static to me at all. Looked like it was moving quite fluidly, except for the slow-mo bits.


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/20 22:05:51


Post by: Overread


I meant the model - the plastic one - not the animated crawling beast that looks far better in the TW Warhammer game


Total War : Warhammer 3 - Shadows of Change new content 2/14 @ 2021/10/25 22:21:55


Post by: Voss


Some interesting mechanics there. Free armies with no upkeep (that can immediately move) seems absolutely nuts.

The passive colonization is... dubious at best. At least with current mechanics. The AI is way too keen to settle, even sometimes when it means they'll get immediately rolled over by a hostile army.

The unholy manifestations are... weird. I get eternal war (good for farming). Call of battle is godly with +50% movement. I don't really care about the higher tier ones? More skulls is... fine, but I suspect by the time its unlocked you're at full-rampage-mode anyway.

Cult buildings are...fine. The teleport from the arena is useful. Hideout with passive skull generation is fine. The other two are going to depend on cost.

Auto-war with everyone (barring other chaos factions) at contact is... fine. It makes sense, but I think its the wrong way to go, simply because of the impact on playstyle:
it doesn't actually encourage all-in total war. It encourages very cautious, careful play where you don't reveal yourself to anyone if you can help it. You stick to your current opponent and don't stick even a claw into anyone else's territory until the current foe is wrapped up.