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For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/06 21:13:51


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The aim of this thread is to provide new players considering starting a Dark Angels (DA) force a one-stop shop to see the basics and give a place for DA players to share experience. It is not meant to be a complaint department about GW balance/prices/lore/nutrional values. The Dark Angels (DA) play much like other Space Marines (SM), sharing baseline stats, units, strats and weapons.

The Spoiler has a list of DA units, focused on those unique to the DA but not ignoring standard SM units that either form an important part of a DA list or behave differently when DA. While I play DA regularly and take them to local tourneys, I don’t claim to be a tactical genius! I will update the rankings based on input from the community (curated?) and observations from the meta. Full credit to those who contribute! Tiers can be fun to discuss, but new players should take all this with a grain of salt.

How Dark Angels Play Differently.

The Dark Angels’ Chapter Tactic Grim Resolve favours standing still – you get a +1 to hit when you do not move. So if you like Devastators etc you are in the right Chapter. You also automatically pass Combat Attrition tests. This means you can take large squads - can be useful for maxing the effectiveness of certain Strats.

Their Super Doctrine, though, is quite different. It changes as the Doctrines advance. Ravenwing get a bonus in Devastator Doctrine, normal infantry get a bonus in the Tactical Doctrine and Deathwing Infantry/Dreadnoughts gain a bonus in the Assault Doctrine. The Ravenwing aspect is probably the most important.

When you are in Devastator Doctrine, your Ravenwing units gain a +3 inch bonus to Movement and can Advance and shoot.

When you are in Tactical Doctrine your non-Deathwing infantry can shoot when they are in Engagement Range.

When you are in Assault Doctrine your Deathwing can re-roll Wounds against characters and models with 8 wounds or more.

There are also two important Abilities for certain Dark Angels units. Inner Circle, granted to all Terminators, certain characters, Bladeguard Veterans and Ravenwing Blacknights, provides several bonuses to resilience and morale. Deathwing Terminators and Raven Black Knights, for instance, pass all morale tests. Jink, granted to all Ravenwing units, provides an invul to shooting.

Dark Angels Terminators and Bikers are more resilient than other Chapters. Due to Inner Circle, Wound rolls of 1 to 3 always fail against Terminators (and all Infantry with Inner Circle). This is huge. Bikers have Jink which gives them an invul against shooting (unless they stay still in their movement phase). If you love Terminators and Bikes, you really can’t go wrong playing Dark Angels this edition.

Key Stratagems: Weapons from the Dark Age for added plasma damage; Intractable to Fall Back and shoot; Line Unbreakable to mitigate hordes in melee.

Warlord Traits – Brilliant Strategist is the stand-out. If you have a Deathwing Character (including an Ancient or Apothecary) then spend the CP to have a second trait and take Watched to say “Not Today” to a single psychic power once per game. This one is situational, but has done great work!

Psychic Powers – Engulfing Fear (messes with the enemy’s Obsec and Actions) and Mind Wipe (disrupts an aura) look great to disrupt the enemy. I think that Engulfing Fear can swing a game. Are these worth losing access to Abhor the Witch? Not sure. A Deathwing-heavy force can have several Deny attempts without taking a Psyker (Watchers in the Dark).

Relics. The Reliquary of the Repentant on a Ravenwing character can make Harlequins cry by taking their Invul to a 5++. It has changed a bit, but I used this one a lot with the Index. The Pennant of Remembrance reduces damage on Deathwing Infantry Core by 1. Yes please.

Units

Spoiler:
Top Tier/A++ (These guys will more than pull their weight)

Azrael. His 4++ Invul aura against shooting and re-roll auras do make you tend to clump up, but he can lead a force onto the middle of the board seize those mid-field objectives.

Ravenwing Apothecary. All Apothecaries are good right now, but this one has mobility. You can also give him Ravenwing Relics. Since he has the Inner Circle keyword it seems he can go in a 1st Company Detachment without breaking it.

Deathwing Terminators. These guys are very resilient now with Inner Circle (built-in Transhuman Physiology) and combine shooting with melee. Normally 40K favours specialized units, but these guys can do anything anywhere (especially with Cyclone Missile Launchers and maybe a single Storm Shield in the squad). Obsec in a Deathwing Detachment is great. Back these guys up with an Apothecary to stay in the fight and group them with Azrael. That objective is yours.

Deathwing Command Squad. Strengths of the Deathwing Terminators in a more flexible squad-sized package. Gives you small units in a DW list to grab objectives/perform Actions.

Good Tier (A)

Bladeguard Veterans. Very survivable (Inner Circle!), hit hard in melee. Take and hold objectives. Economical cost in a DW list.

Attack Bikes with Melta. The survivability of RW combined with access to a fast Apothecary make them hard-hitters that can also take some punishment.

Sammael. Trending to Top Tier when taken in a Ravenwing Detachment. He only rides on Corvex now - his Landspeeder option is gone.

Ezekiel. The Dark Angels have very useful psychic powers, and Ezekiel can really take advantage of them. Not sure if he is an auto-include yet, but trending that way.

Inceptors with Plasma. Weapons from the Dark Age means these guys can drop in and kill almost anything if you commit to overcharging. Going to Damage 3 overcomes wound-reducing mechanisms that seem to be more prevalent.

Ravenwing Talonmaster. Gives a Lieutenant-buff while also clearing chaff with his guns. Can use character protection to hang in there longer.

Deathwing Knights. A threat to anything in close combat and very resilient. No shooting, but they can take and hold those mid-field or opponent-zone objectives. They would go to Top Tier with Obsec.

Deathwing Ancient: Combine with the Relic to make your bit Deathwing Squad even more resilient.

Ravenwing Black Knights. Mobility, survivability (Jink) and firepower (plasma with Weapons from the Dark Age) is a potent combo.

Eradicators. Although great in any SM list, they do break Deathwing/Ravenwing for those Detachments. The Dark Angels Chapter Tactic doesn’t really help them all that much since they want to be moving forward. They do, however, benefit from being in the Azrael bubble.

Solid Tier (B)

Dark Talon. The ability to dish out Mortal Wounds is great, and High Speed Focus can keep it alive longer than other SM flyers.

Belial. Lack of mobility is his downside, and Azrael can go in a DW detachment. If he is melee, though, he can shred!

Outriders. These are a mainstream SM unit, but as Ravenwing they give you a melee punch that a RW force can lack.

Hellblasters. Weapons from the Dark Age means that these guys can outperform their standard SM counterparts. Still outperformed themselves by Plasma Inceptors and Black Knights, but their range advantage gives them a place in some lists.

Nephilim Jetfigher. Can spit out an eye-watering amount of D2 firepower.

Deathwing Apothecary. If you really want to teleport an Apothecary then he's the one. Otherwise just take the RW one.

Fluffy Tier/ C- (you take these guys because you really really want to).

Lazarus. He isn’t that fluffy, but at least he has a name?


The Wings

If you are playing a Dark Angels force, you need to decide on your theme. A Dark Angel can choose to play “Greenwing” with standard Space Marine units; you can play Deathwing or you can play Ravenwing. You also have Mixed Wing!

Greenwing. At its core, a Greenwing Battalion at 1500 points will have Intercessor Squads or Tactical Squads with a Captain (or Azrael). They can hold the objectives in your own deployment zone and challenge the mid-field. A Devastator Squad benefits from the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic. Both Hellblasters and Plasma Inceptors can really benefit from Weapons from the Dark Age, boosting their damage by 1. Committing to overcharging and using the Stratagem can overcome units that rely on damage reduction and can melt most tanks. Have an Apothecary to bring at least one back if they roll a 1 twice (always have a Captain or Azrael supporting your Plasma). Plasma Inceptors have the bonus of being able to come in on Turn 2, mitigating the effect of going second. The Intractable strat on Eradicators or Hellblasters can be a nasty surprise. Line Unbreakable (a somewhat situation strat that can mitigate hordes in melee) and the Fire Discipline Super Doctrine (shoot in melee) can really help Intercessors take and hold the middle of the board. A pure Greenwing detachment with Azrael can do some great work. It won’t be flashy, but it will be solid. Just how Dark Angels like to be.

The Deathwing. Deathwing Terminators are in a good place right now, due in no small part to the Inner Circle ability that gives them baked-in Transhuman. A Deathwing Detachment gives your Deathwing Terminators Obsec. Use a Deathwing Warlord (including Azrael) to refund the CP for the Vanguard. A ten-man squad of Deathwing Terminators with Cyclone Missile Launchers backed up by a Deathwing Apothecary, Deathwing Ancient with the Pennant of Remembrance, Bladeguard Veterans and Deathwing Knights can either march up the middle or teleport on Turn 2/3. Dreadnoughts upgraded to the Deathwing give you something to hold home-field objectives while still contributing to the fight. This list is very resilient and killy, but can lack board presence and once it’s committed as it lacks mobility.

The Ravenwing. Ravenwing Bikers (various types) have the Jink ability, which gives them a 5++ when they move and a 4++ when they advance. They still get the 5++ for the opponent’s first shooting phase if they go second. A Ravenwing Detachment gives your Bikers Obsec, which can be decisive in 9th Edition. Ravenwing are fast to begin with, and can use some Strats to boost their mobility. Sammel, a Talonmaster, squadrons of Outriders and Ravenwing Bikers and at least one decent-sized Ravenwing Black Knight squadron give you tools to seize or flip objectives. In Devastator Doctrine your Ravenwing get +3” to move and can Advance and shoot as if it was equipped with Assault Weapons. This means that several squads of Ravenwing Bikers can zoom up the board, gain a 4++ Invul due to their Jink and still shoot their weapons. A single squad can be an effective distraction, but a Ravenwing Detachment can use this to really dominate a section of the board early. They are vulnerable to getting stuck in protracted combats. They can use some Strats to fall-back and shoot/assault to mitigate this.

Mixed Wing. You can blend Ravenwing and Deathwing units into a standard DA list without penalty – you just miss out on the Obsec. I think that any Greenwing list can benefit from a Deathwing Squad and a Ravenwing Squad. Azrael, a Talonmaster, a Ravenwing Apothecary, a large Deathwing Terminator Squad and a Ravenwing (take your pick) squadron go really well with a baseline of Intercessors, Plasma Inceptors and Devastators/Hellblasters. I think that this will be the strongest design. The Ravenwing squad (or squads) disrupt the enemy early-on. The Deathwing component dominates the mid-field Turn 2 to 5 and the Intercessors hold the back-field. Plasma Inceptors can drop well with Deathwing, while Eradicators can trudge along in a Deathwing/Azreal/Apothecary bubble. The Deathwing mow-down hordes while the Eradicators eradicate. Azrael and the Apothecary make the group more resilient and more killy. I used something like this to win a local tourney with the Index – take that with a grain of salt but it’s not just theory-hammer.


Another approach is to take a Greenwing Patrol with a Captain, two Intecessor Squads, a Plasma Inceptor Squad and a Devastator Squad to support either a Ravenwing or Deathwing Detachment. Effective DW or RW detachments will usually cost around 1000 points, meaning you could take a decent Greenwing Patrol to support them. With the Warlord in your DW/RW Detachment, taking the Patrol costs you 2 CP but gives you board control and fire support. Your Greenwing Patrol holds your deployment Zone while your specialized DW or RW detachment goes out and wins the game by taking the mid-field and enemy objectives.

Looking forward to hearing from other Dark Angels! I will edit the tiers under the spoilers as we go if there is interest.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/07 02:06:26


Post by: ZergSmasher


A couple of times in there you mention Terminators getting the built-in Transhuman Physiology bonus; it actually applies to all Deathwing infantry units, including the special characters and Bladeguard Vets. That's huge, as Bladeguard are a pretty solid unit and cheaper than actual Terminators (I think; I don't have the book yet).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/07 03:53:14


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
A couple of times in there you mention Terminators getting the built-in Transhuman Physiology bonus; it actually applies to all Deathwing infantry units, including the special characters and Bladeguard Vets. That's huge, as Bladeguard are a pretty solid unit and cheaper than actual Terminators (I think; I don't have the book yet).


In the Spoiler under Bladeguard I mention Inner Circle. I’ll make it more clear about Inner Circle for all Deathwing infantry (I've edited the first post to remove confusion).

Bladeguard indeed make a good support unit in DW as they can be taken in squads of three and are therefore a little cheaper.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/07 07:26:00


Post by: addnid


 ZergSmasher wrote:
A couple of times in there you mention Terminators getting the built-in Transhuman Physiology bonus; it actually applies to all Deathwing infantry units, including the special characters and Bladeguard Vets. That's huge, as Bladeguard are a pretty solid unit and cheaper than actual Terminators (I think; I don't have the book yet).


Lightning claw terminators are cheaper by two points. Which is fair as they don’t have 4++ nor any shooting. All Terminator variants and BGV all have their use


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/07 13:52:20


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The shooting advantage of standard Deathwing Terminators puts them over Bladeguard Veterans for me. For my games with the Index though, the Bladeguard Veterans gave a good support squad. Their smaller squad minimum size allows them to provide a useful unit at a cheaper points cost. They can hold/contest objectives and perform Actions. I think they work well in any list, including a pure Deathwing Detachment. I also find they get the job done without needing character or Stratagem support due to their high number of attacks with S5 damage 2 weapons.

Looking for feedback for the unit ranking under the Spoiler. Hoping it can be a resource for players contemplating Dark Angels.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/07 23:58:59


Post by: Brian888


Per the video linked below, you can make a very points-efficient DA Interrogator Chaplain who’s an absolute blender in melee.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4ePxAaCn0&t=304s


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/08 09:08:20


Post by: Smirrors


I have been buildings Deathwing lists with a core Patrol consisting of a Primaris Chaplain, Infiltrator OR Intercessor, Ravenwing Apothercary, MM Attack Bike squad and 5 man Inceptor squad. Can't leave home without this detachment for 800-825pts.

That leaves the Deathwing detachment where for me everything is almost locked in. 10 man DW Squad, 5 Man DW Knight Squad, 3 2 man command squads and finally an Ancient.

Thoughts on HQ to support this army?

Im thinking a Termie Librarian.

But my new consideration is a Captain on Bike with Chapter Master and Deathwing Keyword. For 160pts he's not cheap, basically Azrael in cost. But the difference being on bike is hes mobile and can go out and do potentially more damage with one of the swords or chainsword relics and double traits to blend. His Chapter Master buff probably goes to Inceptors or Attack Bikes, and he'll sit with the big block of terminators until he needs to launch.

What do you guys think? Or Maybe Azrael will come into contention to really make the 10 man block durable but lose out on mobility.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/08 11:11:24


Post by: Cybtroll


For the Master on Bike I think the Relics and the Warlord Traits available will make it or break it. I need to check the full Codex.

On army composition, since I'm still in the field of unproven theories (due to Covid), I'm orienting towards a FULL bi-wing (Deathwing and Ravenwing) with full ObSec.
That should be a Vanguard + another Detachment (I think a Patrol will suffice but an Outrider may be used if needed).
You sacrifice backfield controls and Devastators, but I think Deathwing Dreadnought may cover you. You also lose indirect fire with Whirlwinds, but thanks to the Ravenwing elements you should be able to reach hidden units. Also few Primaris units, but I despise them anyway.
Some models like Black Knight or the Ravenwing Apothecary should be able to be put in either detachment.
Maybe this will require some mandatory psychic power to work (for example negate ObSec to your opponent, since you have it on everyone but the army will be very small) but O think will be an engaging and challenging army to play, and is a funny break from the Greenwing-heavy infantry firebase I had to use during basically the entirety of8th edition.

PS: I have a question for the OP: aren't Deathwing Command Squad limited (one per army)???
If not, they're REALLY powerful... Basically a smaller terminator squad to exploit even more the MSU on the board. I've taken for granted they were limited as 1 per army


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/08 11:33:51


Post by: Spoletta


They are not limited, but they pay an extra over the regular terminator model.

They also don't get Obsec in the DW detachment.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/08 12:41:05


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The Deathwing Command Squad is a great little unit - you can take one in a "free slot" if you a Deathwing Terminator Captain. I think the only limitation is the Rule of Three.

I've been looking at the Dark Angels' Secondaries. Its all theory right now (back in Lockdown).

Martial Interdiction looks fluffy, but I think it will usually lead to disappointment. Could work if your opponent's list doesn't offer much in the way of Bring it Down or Assassinate. Might be an option if your opponent relies on a few, squishy characters and you have Sammael? I found with the Index that Sammael on Corvex could be a good character assassin. Belial will have a hard time catching anyone, but maybe with a well placed teleport?. Still, I suppose it lets you add some narrative to your Matched Play!

Death on the Wind is clearly for Ravenwing players. Destroying 8 enemy units (to max out at 15 points) is certainly possible, but watch out for the restrictions on moving over 12" or melee. I guess you could take this over Grind them Down if you want to guarantee a few points.

Stubborn Defiance looks amazing. Holding an objective of your choice for the whole game to get 15 points looks very doable. It does, though, require you to hold it with the same Obsec unit for the consecutive turn scoring (the rule says "that unit". This paints a huge target on "that unit" so I think you need to commit something like an Obsec Deathwing squad or a full-size Tactical/Intercessor squad with Apothecary support. Still, I think its the winner of the group and will be the one we see.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/08 16:06:30


Post by: eternalxfl


So I noticed that on the Deathwing promotions chart or whatever, you can induct a "Captain" for X amount of points. Does this mean I can promote a standard power armor (non-terminator armor) wearing captain to the deathwing order? Is it inferred anywhere that this captain must be wearing terminator armor?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/08 23:54:51


Post by: Cybtroll


Answering by the fluff, Deathwing is the name for the Veterans of the Chapter that do not use power armour (that's why, at least originally, we didn't have standard Veteran).

Any Character is a member of the Inner Circle, and of the Deathwing by extension. That said only Belial was specifically a Deathwing Character for the purpose of the formation in previous edition.

So, if the table say so, than yes. I think the new book manage that a little differently due to the mess of Keyword, duplicate Terminators and Dreadnought entries with the base Marine Codex and such.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 00:09:48


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The 1st Company rule is quite permissive - much more so than the 2nd Company. As it reads, anything with Inner Circle can go in a Vanguard without breaking 1st Company. The Rites of Initiation are also broad.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 02:03:11


Post by: Smirrors


eternalxfl wrote:
So I noticed that on the Deathwing promotions chart or whatever, you can induct a "Captain" for X amount of points. Does this mean I can promote a standard power armor (non-terminator armor) wearing captain to the deathwing order? Is it inferred anywhere that this captain must be wearing terminator armor?


Yes anything with Captain keyword can be promoted to Deathwing which makes sense as having Deathwing lead all the other companies. This is what I am looking at doing for my Vanguard detachment so as not to break the obsec rule for terminators


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 02:19:48


Post by: cody.d.


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The Deathwing Command Squad is a great little unit - you can take one in a "free slot" if you a Deathwing Terminator Captain. I think the only limitation is the Rule of Three.

I've been looking at the Dark Angels' Secondaries. Its all theory right now (back in Lockdown).

Martial Interdiction looks fluffy, but I think it will usually lead to disappointment. Could work if your opponent's list doesn't offer much in the way of Bring it Down or Assassinate. Might be an option if your opponent relies on a few, squishy characters and you have Sammael? I found with the Index that Sammael on Corvex could be a good character assassin. Belial will have a hard time catching anyone, but maybe with a well placed teleport?. Still, I suppose it lets you add some narrative to your Matched Play!

Death on the Wind is clearly for Ravenwing players. Destroying 8 enemy units (to max out at 15 points) is certainly possible, but watch out for the restrictions on moving over 12" or melee. I guess you could take this over Grind them Down if you want to guarantee a few points.

Stubborn Defiance looks amazing. Holding an objective of your choice for the whole game to get 15 points looks very doable. It does, though, require you to hold it with the same Obsec unit for the consecutive turn scoring (the rule says "that unit". This paints a huge target on "that unit" so I think you need to commit something like an Obsec Deathwing squad or a full-size Tactical/Intercessor squad with Apothecary support. Still, I think its the winner of the group and will be the one we see.


Be wary when using an inner circle unit and the Stubborn Defiance secondary when facing orks. If they can get a bead on the unit with smashagunz the unit will vanish as they get around transhuman type abilities with their wounding mechanic.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 04:06:13


Post by: Smirrors


cody.d. wrote:


Be wary when using an inner circle unit and the Stubborn Defiance secondary when facing orks. If they can get a bead on the unit with smashagunz the unit will vanish as they get around transhuman type abilities with their wounding mechanic.


Yes it will be important to know your enemy before picking secondaries. Luckily you go through army over view before you pick.

Curious how the Orks get around transhuman?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 07:47:35


Post by: Spoletta


The smasha gun uses a special wounding roll . It rolls 2d6 and has to beat your T value to wound.
The final effect is that it averages between strenght 7 and 8, but it is especially mean against transhuman effects. It wounds a DWK more often than a 2+.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 09:27:17


Post by: cody.d.


 Smirrors wrote:
cody.d. wrote:


Be wary when using an inner circle unit and the Stubborn Defiance secondary when facing orks. If they can get a bead on the unit with smashagunz the unit will vanish as they get around transhuman type abilities with their wounding mechanic.


Yes it will be important to know your enemy before picking secondaries. Luckily you go through army over view before you pick.

Curious how the Orks get around transhuman?


The Smashagun is a very odd weapon. In it's ruling is specifically states that INSTEAD of a wound roll you roll 2D6 and try to match or exceed the targets toughness. If you do you successfully wound so you skip the step of the wound roll entirely. And trust me, most ork players will be taking 1 or 6 of these guns as they're disgustingly cheap for their quality. Probably one of the handful of units keeping orks competitive ATM honestly.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 12:49:02


Post by: Sarigar


As someone who is new to Dark Angels, I do like to read various opinions and options available in a single location. Having said that, I have been unable to locate the rules for Grim Resolve. Can anyone provide page#? The Codex references it, but I can't find what it actually does.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 13:55:27


Post by: princeyg


Its In the chapter tactics section of Codex Space Marines.

You need both codex and supplement to get the most out of Dark Angels.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 17:41:56


Post by: eternalxfl


princeyg wrote:
Its In the chapter tactics section of Codex Space Marines.

You need both codex and supplement to get the most out of Dark Angels.

So are Grim Resolve and the Devastator Doctrine bonus (+6" to range) still active for DA? I was listening to a podcast where they said they have been replaced by the new "Sons of the Lion" rules. I'm starting to get a bit confused...


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 17:43:40


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


eternalxfl wrote:
princeyg wrote:
Its In the chapter tactics section of Codex Space Marines.

You need both codex and supplement to get the most out of Dark Angels.

So are Grim Resolve and the Devastator Doctrine bonus (+6" to range) still active for DA? I was listening to a podcast where they said they have been replaced by the new "Sons of the Lion" rules. I'm starting to get a bit confused...


Range bonus is gone. I can make the first post more clear without becoming a Codex replacement either.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 19:54:04


Post by: Agusto


A question about swords. Heavenfall Blade vs The Burning Blade? Which one do you prefer? Or is it "Secret option 3", Teeth of Terra?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 22:56:33


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Agusto wrote:
A question about swords. Heavenfall Blade vs The Burning Blade? Which one do you prefer? Or is it "Secret option 3", Teeth of Terra?


Definitely Heavenfall Blade for Talonmasters!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 22:58:43


Post by: ZergSmasher


Teeth of Terra has some usefulness for a generic bike captain or something (in the event you don't take Sammael for some reason).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/09 23:01:33


Post by: Canadian 5th


Agusto wrote:
A question about swords. Heavenfall Blade vs The Burning Blade? Which one do you prefer? Or is it "Secret option 3", Teeth of Terra?

To start let's examine what the melee profile of the character using these weapons will looks like after applying them, in this case we'll use a Captain for our comparison:

Astartes Chainsword: 5 Attacks @ S4 AP-1 D1
Teeth of Terra: 7 Attacks @ S5 AP-2 D2
Power Sword: 4 Attacks @ S5 AP-3 D1
MC Power Sword: 4 Attacks @ S5 AP-3 D2
The Burning Blade: 4 Attacks @ S7 AP-5 D2
Heavenfall Blade: 5 Attacks @ S6 AP-4 D2
Blade of Burden: 4 Attacks @ S6 AP-4 D2 - When resolving an attack made with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 2 mortal wounds on the target and the attack sequence ends.
Thunderhammer: 4 Attacks @ S8 AP-2 D3 - Each time an attack is made with this weapon, subtract 1 from that attack’s hit roll.

Looking at the above list you'd essentially never want to gimp your dedicated CC character with a default weapon so let's chuck those and look at the specialist options:

Teeth of Terra: 7 Attacks @ S5 AP-2 D2
MC Power Sword: 4 Attacks @ S5 AP-3 D2
The Burning Blade: 4 Attacks @ S7 AP-5 D2
Heavenfall Blade: 5 Attacks @ S6 AP-4 D2
Blade of Burden: 4 Attacks @ S6 AP-4 D2 - When resolving an attack made with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 2 mortal wounds on the target and the attack sequence ends.
Thunderhammer: 4 Attacks @ S8 AP-2 D3 - Each time an attack is made with this weapon, subtract 1 from that attack’s hit roll.

The Teeth of Terra is a great option for clearing hordes, anything with armor 5+ never gets a save and 4+ loses that save in later turns as tactical doctrine kicks in.

I'd always take the Heavenfall Blade over the Burning Blade as +1 attack will be better than +1S AP-1 against most targets.

For anti-armor/MC work Thunderhammers still shine as going from +5 to wound +4 can be a huge change.




For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 02:41:01


Post by: Smirrors


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Agusto wrote:
A question about swords. Heavenfall Blade vs The Burning Blade? Which one do you prefer? Or is it "Secret option 3", Teeth of Terra?


Definitely Heavenfall Blade for Talonmasters!


So many decent relic options, I think the Arbiters Gaze would be chosen more often. The only time I would consider a Heavenfall Blade would be in an all Ravenwing Army and that would be to use it with the Swift Strike strategem to hit and run


Automatically Appended Next Post:
eternalxfl wrote:

So are Grim Resolve and the Devastator Doctrine bonus (+6" to range) still active for DA? I was listening to a podcast where they said they have been replaced by the new "Sons of the Lion" rules. I'm starting to get a bit confused...


The Space Marine Codex gives us our Chapter Tactic Grim Resolve of +1 to hit etc. Also we have access to vanilla stratagems, relics, warlord traits, secondary objectives and the the core list of units.

The Dark Angel Supplement adds our unique units, Super Doctrine, exclusive stratagems, warlord traits, relics and stratagems.

You need BOTH to play Dark Angels


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 05:23:58


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Do you guys think a space marine captain or a chaplain is better on a bike as an aggro CC threat?
Both seam to be able to do similar damage, with slightly different buffing affects to nearby core. Roll with some outriders/ attack bikes


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 06:05:09


Post by: ZergSmasher


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Do you guys think a space marine captain or a chaplain is better on a bike as an aggro CC threat?
Both seam to be able to do similar damage, with slightly different buffing affects to nearby core. Roll with some outriders/ attack bikes

You can set up a Primaris Bike Chaplain to be a nasty beatstick character, but to do it most effectively his litanies will be ones that mainly buff himself. Give him the relic crozius, The Imperium's Sword warlord trait, and the Mantra of Strength as his litany and he'll wreck almost anything he touches. But he gives up his ability to help his friends out to do this. If you want him as a buff machine, probably make him a Master of Sanctity (so he can do double litanies), Wise Orator, and I'm not sure what relic would be best, and choose whichever litanies will best help your list.

The Bike Captain, on the other hand, can be given a wide variety of weapons, including some very nice relics like the Teeth of Terra or the Heavenfall Blade. Not sure a Storm Shield is worth it on him anymore (although a 2+ save is nice). And his aura always buffs any CORE stuff around him, which is nice. He also has a good selection of warlord traits that can either buff him or guys around him and could take a Chapter Master upgrade (if you don't have Azrael in the same list).

Honestly, it's not super easy to choose between the two, as both have their uses. They do different things, so you should take whichever one would most benefit your list. Personally I prefer Sammael to a regular Bike Captain, but if you were running Successors for some reason (which isn't as terrible an idea as it sounds, although actual DA are better IMO), you're stuck with the generic guy.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 08:50:45


Post by: Mickmann


Quick question about Bladeguard in a DW detatchment. How do you transport them? Just let them walk?

The repulsor still doesn't sound like a good deal with that high points cost and no invul-save. I think in the preview they said Impulsors can't be DW.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 10:05:33


Post by: Agusto


Why I am unsure regarding The Heavenfall Blade is that The Burning Blade is +3S, compared to the +2 for Heavenfall, and in combination with The Imperium's Sword Warlord trait brings you up to that sweet S8 on the charge.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 10:20:59


Post by: Sarigar


princeyg wrote:
Its In the chapter tactics section of Codex Space Marines.

You need both codex and supplement to get the most out of Dark Angels.


Thanks. I found Grim Resolve rule. Feels like I need to build my own cheat sheet as the rules are a bit spread out.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 13:16:02


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Mickmann wrote:
Quick question about Bladeguard in a DW detatchment. How do you transport them? Just let them walk?

The repulsor still doesn't sound like a good deal with that high points cost and no invul-save. I think in the preview they said Impulsors can't be DW.


Impulsors cannot be be given Rites of Initiation into the Deathwing. Repulsors are your only option, although if you take two detachments I suppose you could have DW Bladeguard hitch a ride in a non-Deathwing Impulsor. I’ve been walking my Bladeguard up the board.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 18:41:29


Post by: eternalxfl


On the topic of Deathwing transport options, is there a consensus on Stormraven or Landraider transports? I run a firstborn DA army and am currently in consideration of these 2 options. The weapons load out on either options would likely be whatever is basic to keep them cheaper, after all, I'm not bringing them for firepower necessarily. I'm liking the Stormraven option since it can carry a dreadnought and also because of the dual plasma cannons. They are pricey though, perhaps that's to be expected though? Whats everyone's thoughts on these?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/10 18:57:57


Post by: Canadian 5th


eternalxfl wrote:
On the topic of Deathwing transport options, is there a consensus on Stormraven or Landraider transports? I run a firstborn DA army and am currently in consideration of these 2 options. The weapons load out on either options would likely be whatever is basic to keep them cheaper, after all, I'm not bringing them for firepower necessarily. I'm liking the Stormraven option since it can carry a dreadnought and also because of the dual plasma cannons. They are pricey though, perhaps that's to be expected though? Whats everyone's thoughts on these?

Both options seem rather costly in terms of points to be considered competitive. For a more casual game, the Land Raider is likely to be less of a trap, by which I mean it won't tempt you to spend a minimum of 430 points on a transport and dreadnought in addition to the 200+ points of terminators it's carrying. You'll have a very hard time winning if you spend ~650 points on things that don't score or kill with any particular efficiency. By comparison, the Land Raider saves you from feeling cheated if you choose not to bring a dreadnought while carrying as many models - for your own sanity pretend that only the Redeemer and Crusader actually exist - thus the Land Raider is the least bad option.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/11 05:42:55


Post by: ZergSmasher


How does everyone feel about the new Storm Speeder? I recently bought one and am very glad that I can make the options swappable without need for magnets (the wing missiles technically shouldn't be there for the Hailstrike/Hammerstrike, but they look so cool and would be a pain to magnetize), and I'm wondering if anyone else is thinking about them or planning to add them to their DA arsenal besides me. The combination of Jink and High-Speed Focus makes me think that DA might be the only chapter in which they are very viable. Kind of a bigger version of our Land Speeder Vengeance, costing more points but having somewhat more firepower.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/11 14:22:45


Post by: bullyboy


My trial dual wing list is coming together, but I'm trying to think what I want to add for the final 310pts

Deathwing vanguard
Ezekiel
10 DW terminators, 2 cyclones, 2 TH/SS, watcher
5 DW Knights, watcher
DW Ancient, Pennant of Remembrance

Ravenwing Outrider
Talon Master, Brilliant Strategist, Arbiter's gaze
RW Apothecary, chief upgrade, selfless healer
4 RW bikes, 2 meltas, AB w MM
4 RW bikes, 2 meltas, AB w MM
LS vengeance

Combat squad 5 terms with 2 cyclones and 2 TH/SS to hold objective with Ancient for Stubborn Defiance (not sure if I need to go all in with 10 to ensure points)
Other Deathwing units move to center for Oath of Moment.
I think other points need to be invested in more Ravenwing.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/11 17:22:23


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


@Bullyboy,

I like it! Perhaps some Attack Bikes with Multi-Melta?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/11 18:20:51


Post by: bullyboy


I realized I need Sammael in there for some rerolls. Then I'll probably add another bike squad (4). I only have 2 attack bikes with MMs and not sure I want to hunt down anymore, and both of them are already attached to a bike squad each.
Another option is a Deathwing contemptor with MM to march up with knights.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/14 02:38:51


Post by: ZergSmasher


Putting an Attack Bike with a regular Bike Squad is probably a decent way to go, as they then have ObSec. I wonder about putting a couple of meltaguns on the regular dudes to make them a decent little hunter-killer unit. Then again, at 40 points each for a biker with meltagun, maybe you'd be just as well to take Eradicators, although they are nowhere near as mobile.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/14 03:07:58


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


With the 9th Index I ran a RW Sqn with an attached Attack Bike with Multi-Melta plus two Meltas in the Sqn. Brings them into fairly close range (not always a great thing with RW), but it could really carve up armour. Attack Bikes on their own can be used to keep deep-strikes away from Black Knights, and can also do suicide runs against tanks/Dreads.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/14 12:35:58


Post by: Sarigar


I got to play my first game with Dark Angels against Custodes. Note, I am a very long time Eldar player and have not even played a Marine army since 5th edition (and that was very brief). I tip my hat to those who can play multiple armies and keep rules straight; I dont even know the basic stats of this army and spent a lot of time referencing books. Expectedly, I lost pretty handedly. I utilized a Ravenwing Outrider detachment and Dark Angels Patrol detachment.

For new players, I highly recommend making notes to quickly reference. There is a lot of material to reference in several places between two books. Just the stratagem alone is a real challenge to know; jotting down the most likely ones one would use and in what phase could help.

I found the Ravenwing specific secondary (Death in the wind) to be underwhelming. This was primarily due to the require me t to move 12". I interpret the movement rule as actual distance from start point to end point, not moving a model 6 inches, then putting it back in its original position and counting that as 12" movement. That rule interpretation may change how easily it is to score.

I had mediocre luck with the secondary, Stubborn Defiance. The mission I played had zero objectives in my own deployment zone, requiring me to be in a position closer to Custodes (hint: don't make Custodes charges easier to make). I did observe that I was scoring points, so this objective bears more games to try out.

Of my units, the Attack Bike worked very well. I ran 2 x 3 Attack Bike squads with Multi Meltas. They have enough wounds and the 5++ felt sufficient.

I am not sure the ability for Ravenwing units to asdvance and still shoot was worth the 4++ for a turn. For myself, I will assess how much of my army will be subject to -1 to hit through enemy auras/abilities and/or terrain. If I am likely to already be subjected to a -1 to hit, then advancing will only yield a positive for my army. One notable exception would be a Talonmaster with the Arbiters Gaze relic.

Interestingly, the Ravenwing appears to have a broad strategy similar to my Craftworld army; play the edges of the board, stay at range to deplete the opposing army, then move in during the latter turns to catch up on primary objective points. I think this was my biggest learning lesson as I watched Custodes wreck every unit they got into assault with.

Overall, I am excited to be building a new army and am enjoying the options available in the Dark Angels. Lots of options for a variety of play styles.




For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/15 02:01:32


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


@Sarigar,

Thanks for posting the results of a recent game! I find that Ravenwing like to operate at their max effective weapon range. They can fight in melee, but its not really their strong suite. I agree that the 12" movement requirement on the Ravenwing secondary is a genuine constraint. I think its still an option if you are facing an army with a large number of units but no obvious source of VPs for Secondaries like Bring it Down etc.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/15 02:01:44


Post by: cuda1179


I haven't gotten the codex yet. Is Sammael still limited to just the jetbike, or did they get generous and give us back his Landspeeder option?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/15 02:38:11


Post by: Sarigar


 cuda1179 wrote:
I haven't gotten the codex yet. Is Sammael still limited to just the jetbike, or did they get generous and give us back his Landspeeder option?


Jetbike only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
@Sarigar,

Thanks for posting the results of a recent game! I find that Ravenwing like to operate at their max effective weapon range. They can fight in melee, but its not really their strong suite. I agree that the 12" movement requirement on the Ravenwing secondary is a genuine constraint. I think its still an option if you are facing an army with a large number of units but no obvious source of VPs for Secondaries like Bring it Down etc.


Agreed. This was only a single game against an experienced player with a solid army. I definitely need more games to better understand the Army.

On an aside, I built a one page cheat sheet and a one page stratagem quick reference. I can't recommend this enough for players who may not be very familiar with their respective army. Break down all the stratagems by phase alone can be a real time saver. You can also begin to track which stratagems you tend to use more often than others.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/15 14:39:37


Post by: Nora


good and informative first post!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/18 00:12:58


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 Nora wrote:
good and informative first post!


Thanks for the feedback!

My intent is to keep the first post "evergreen" and keep it updated as the community gets more games in. Comments, criticism and contrary views are most welcome! I also invite Dark Angels players to post the summaries of their games here. My own region is just coming out of lockdown, but I know that some folks have been able to play in their areas. There is plenty of theoryhammer going on out there, but some practical examples are very valuable.

I am a little sad because our next local tourney (this weekend) required lists in mid-Jan, so didn't go with my usual Dark Angels as I knew the Codex was dropping after the list deadline...


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/18 05:01:49


Post by: Zustiur


eternalxfl wrote:
On the topic of Deathwing transport options, is there a consensus on Stormraven or Landraider transports? SNIP
Whats everyone's thoughts on these?


When looking at transports for terminators, you must always ask yourself a series of questions:

1) What benefit am I getting by transporting instead of teleporting?
2) How long do I expect the transport to survive?
2a) What are my chances of it surviving long enough to deliver?
3) What will the transport do after dropping it's payload?

Being able to transport a dreadnought is very valuable, but also draws a lot of fire at a model which is near impossible to hide (completely impossible on most tournament tables I've ever played on). I would expect the success rate to be very low.

Having a transport available is great when your opponent has capability to screen.

My preference is for the land raider but I have to caveat that with my bias against fliers in general.
The Raven is generally the better gun platform. Perhaps look at it in that light. Include it for the guns, use it as a transport when the opportunity presents itself. Don't bank on a one trick pony of delivering terminators and dreadnought every game.

That's how I see my land raider in Crusade. It's a tough predator most games, but can move my tactical squad sometimes.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/18 20:35:31


Post by: bobafett012


Quick question, we can still use the codex space marines warlord traits, strategems, and relics along with the dark angels specific ones right?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/18 21:22:54


Post by: princeyg


Yep, we are a supplement to that book, not a replacement.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/18 23:14:14


Post by: bobafett012


princeyg wrote:
Yep, we are a supplement to that book, not a replacement.


Perfect, that's what I thought. The storm of fire warlord trait seems pretty good too me with a big blob of DW terminators. I'm thinking an ancient as the warlord with the -1 damage banner, storm of fire, a chief apothecary with selfless healer, and a blob of 10 DW terms on a center objective would be really good. With that amount of shots, you're going to get a good amount of 6's to wound.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/19 01:36:50


Post by: Sarigar


Deleted. Please ignore.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/19 06:05:03


Post by: Smirrors


Mickmann wrote:
Quick question about Bladeguard in a DW detatchment. How do you transport them? Just let them walk?

The repulsor still doesn't sound like a good deal with that high points cost and no invul-save. I think in the preview they said Impulsors can't be DW.


Advance them across. Personally I havent found spare points to put them in lists.

Impulsors cant be in the vanguard detachment but if your taking a patrol to supplement then the Impulsor is by far the best choice.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/19 06:25:51


Post by: BadManNZ


Hello Sons of the Lion,

What an exciting time to be a fan of the First Legion!

The new detachment options for First and Second company are really cool. But will you forgo the Greenwing entirely or take a detachment to provide backfield support / fire support / or cheaper bodies?

Do you rate heavy intercessors as a decent option perhaps near Azrael? It Keeps with the 3 wound model theme of either the terminators or the bikers.

I quite like the toughness/value of Vindicated to further saturate tough targets along with the deathwing.

Any thoughts?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/19 06:27:46


Post by: Smirrors


What are peoples thoughts on the two chaplain relics who is also chanting Mantra of Strength

Benediction of Fury St+2 (St7), Ap2,3D (4D), Mortal on 6's plus normal

vs

Mace of Redemption Stx2 (St9), Ap3, 2D (3D), For CSM 2 Mortals on 4s but no normal dmg.

As a second question, which would you take vs Deathguard with Morty




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BadManNZ wrote:
Hello Sons of the Lion,

What an exciting time to be a fan of the First Legion!

The new detachment options for First and Second company are really cool. But will you forgo the Greenwing entirely or take a detachment to provide backfield support / fire support / or cheaper bodies?

Do you rate heavy intercessors as a decent option perhaps near Azrael? It Keeps with the 3 wound model theme of either the terminators or the bikers.

I quite like the toughness/value of Vindicated to further saturate tough targets along with the deathwing.

Any thoughts?


Me personally I will never leave home without a Patrol that has inceptors and attack bikes (or termies if i go with outrider detachment) unless I go for a novelty single detachment list.

I found that I always steal points from my troops slot so haven't even considered heavy intercessors. As for Azrael he really should be moving up the board and not babysitting some objective holders so I would only consider them on their own merit.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/20 02:39:50


Post by: ZergSmasher


I dunno, a big brick of Heavy Intercessors with Azrael giving them rerolls could be decent. Especially since I'm pretty sure they have all the right keywords to use the shoot twice stratagem. I honestly like that idea better than taking the old Hellblaster blob as it's a lot less points.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/20 19:37:00


Post by: Rivener


 ZergSmasher wrote:
I dunno, a big brick of Heavy Intercessors with Azrael giving them rerolls could be decent. Especially since I'm pretty sure they have all the right keywords to use the shoot twice stratagem. I honestly like that idea better than taking the old Hellblaster blob as it's a lot less points.


Rapid Fire explicitly allows Intercessors Squads and Veteran Intercessor Squads to shoot twice. Heavy Intercessors may have the Intercessor keyword, but Rapid Fire doesn’t key off of that I’m afraid.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/21 01:58:31


Post by: ZergSmasher


Rivener wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
I dunno, a big brick of Heavy Intercessors with Azrael giving them rerolls could be decent. Especially since I'm pretty sure they have all the right keywords to use the shoot twice stratagem. I honestly like that idea better than taking the old Hellblaster blob as it's a lot less points.


Rapid Fire explicitly allows Intercessors Squads and Veteran Intercessor Squads to shoot twice. Heavy Intercessors may have the Intercessor keyword, but Rapid Fire doesn’t key off of that I’m afraid.

You're absolutely right. Oh well, I still think the idea has merit as 10 T5 3W bodies with a 4++ vs. enemy shooting, getting full rerolls when they shoot, could be nasty.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/22 18:29:05


Post by: ninjafiredragon


10 man terminator blob.
Are yall leaning towards SS/TH for more defense and potency in combat, or for the cheaper StormBolter/PF load out? Storm bolter seams a little harder to ignore, as even if you dont get into combat your dumping 40 shots out.

But +1 to armor, and a 4++ is pretty huge, so curious as to what you guys think.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/22 22:27:10


Post by: addnid


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
10 man terminator blob.
Are yall leaning towards SS/TH for more defense and potency in combat, or for the cheaper StormBolter/PF load out? Storm bolter seams a little harder to ignore, as even if you dont get into combat your dumping 40 shots out.

But +1 to armor, and a 4++ is pretty huge, so curious as to what you guys think.


3 or 4 th/ss and the rest is storm bolter, with 2 cyclone ML to boot. I will probably try double lightning claw on squad leader, but any load out aside from power sword if fine for that dude I think


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/23 01:45:12


Post by: Smirrors


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
10 man terminator blob.
Are yall leaning towards SS/TH for more defense and potency in combat, or for the cheaper StormBolter/PF load out? Storm bolter seams a little harder to ignore, as even if you dont get into combat your dumping 40 shots out.

But +1 to armor, and a 4++ is pretty huge, so curious as to what you guys think.


I think depends on what you want to use them for. They are very easy to ignore if you misplay them. And they don't hit as hard as Deathwing Knights. For me to consider a 10man hammershield squad I would be doing it for obsec reasons so this squad has to be contesting a risky objective or if holding a backfield objective be in a 5man squad or combat squad the 10 man. Otherwise if its to go hunt elite and vehicles the DW Knights do the job better.

Im leaning to Stormfist loadout. Can sit on an objective and still contribute to the battle and fairly cheap investment. Also giving some anti horde clearance is a nice bonus. If running in this way I would consider taking 3 hammershields in the squad. Otherwise if I have Azrael I would just go all stormfists and maybe one hammershield to tank the Ap1/2 shots. This loadout also allows it to start on the board and be a distraction while still contributing effectively unlike the hammerfist who would mostly be waiting till turn 3 if they were walking or failed a charge.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/23 03:45:14


Post by: cuda1179


If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/23 04:17:23


Post by: ZergSmasher


 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/23 07:21:45


Post by: addnid


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.


Not having even one storm shield means your squad is exposed to low ap threats, I think that is rather bad. Depends on your meta I guess


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/23 14:53:04


Post by: bullyboy


My 10 man has 3 TH/SS, 2 cyclones, rest mix of SB fist or chainfist. Sgt has one of the TH/SS.
Can combat sqd to leave both cyclones and 2 SS on objective while other 5 either teleport in ir advance up board


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/23 19:51:42


Post by: addnid


 bullyboy wrote:
My 10 man has 3 TH/SS, 2 cyclones, rest mix of SB fist or chainfist. Sgt has one of the TH/SS.
Can combat sqd to leave both cyclones and 2 SS on objective while other 5 either teleport in ir advance up board


I didn’t think of that, thanks mate ! I now know what to leave on the backfield objective chosen for stubborn defiance: 5 terminators with 2 cyclones and 2 or 3 SS/TH.
That squad can deal damage from afar, can tank, is obsec, it has it all ! The other squad can move forward and live its life more dangerously


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/23 21:14:32


Post by: Maelstrom808


If you are running Azreal, he pairs up nicely with relic terminators. His 4++ gives them a poor man's storm shield and then full rerolls on hits. Run them with SB and mostly LC with a few PF and you have a nice budget terminator squad that can handle just about anything they run across.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/24 02:36:52


Post by: cuda1179


 Maelstrom808 wrote:
If you are running Azreal, he pairs up nicely with relic terminators. His 4++ gives them a poor man's storm shield and then full rerolls on hits. Run them with SB and mostly LC with a few PF and you have a nice budget terminator squad that can handle just about anything they run across.


I was just thinking of what kind of damage output that setup would bring. A Terminator with two lightning claws on the charge with rerolls to hit would be doing 3.33 marine wounds. Not too bad. Even with a minimum sized squad you can more than expect to wipe out a marine unit.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/24 03:42:25


Post by: ZergSmasher


 addnid wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.


Not having even one storm shield means your squad is exposed to low ap threats, I think that is rather bad. Depends on your meta I guess

Being as it's a cheap unit, if you lose them it doesn't hurt as much. That's the whole idea with Relic Termies IMO. Definitely put some TH/SS in the squad if you're running CMLs or something (probably just a couple because hopefully that unit is near Azrael for the 4++). Also, Inner Circle makes those low AP threats much less, err, threatening, because they still need a 4+ to wound and your dudes have 3 wounds.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/27 18:43:09


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


So, weird question. I've played 40k for decades.... own seven huuuuuuuge armies... and somehow have never owned a Space Marine one.

What are people's thoughts on starting with two of the Dark Angel Combat Patrol boxes, even if I may well end up running them as a different Chapter? That box just seems to have a lot of the best units, with no dead weight?

Thoughts? They might initially become Iron Hands, but i'd love to try running all flavors to see what clicks.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/28 01:26:57


Post by: ZergSmasher


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, weird question. I've played 40k for decades.... own seven huuuuuuuge armies... and somehow have never owned a Space Marine one.

What are people's thoughts on starting with two of the Dark Angel Combat Patrol boxes, even if I may well end up running them as a different Chapter? That box just seems to have a lot of the best units, with no dead weight?

Thoughts? They might initially become Iron Hands, but i'd love to try running all flavors to see what clicks.

Plasma Inceptors are solid gold, especially with Dark Angels. Redemptors are the best flavor of Dreadnoughts other than the Forge World ones. And you'll need Intercessors most likely as your troops. Two Chaplains are never really necessary, but maybe with a bit of imagination and some kitbashing/green stuff skills you could turn one into a Captain or Librarian or something. So getting two of those boxes could make a decent little core for you. Personally, I might go with one DA box and one BA box for a little variety, and you can sell whichever upgrade sprues you don't end up using.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/28 01:32:08


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I concur with Zergsmasher!

No bad choices in the DA box, but as he says you don't really need two Chaplains.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/28 12:22:48


Post by: Sarigar


Do the Inceptors in the Combat Patrol have the Plasma options? I was not sure if they were the ones from the 8th edition starter kit that only had the bolt pistol variant. If they do, it's a solid box for sure and just try to trade out the extra Chaplain with someone as two Chaplains are not overly necessary.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/28 16:46:10


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


 ZergSmasher wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, weird question. I've played 40k for decades.... own seven huuuuuuuge armies... and somehow have never owned a Space Marine one.

What are people's thoughts on starting with two of the Dark Angel Combat Patrol boxes, even if I may well end up running them as a different Chapter? That box just seems to have a lot of the best units, with no dead weight?

Thoughts? They might initially become Iron Hands, but i'd love to try running all flavors to see what clicks.

Plasma Inceptors are solid gold, especially with Dark Angels. Redemptors are the best flavor of Dreadnoughts other than the Forge World ones. And you'll need Intercessors most likely as your troops. Two Chaplains are never really necessary, but maybe with a bit of imagination and some kitbashing/green stuff skills you could turn one into a Captain or Librarian or something. So getting two of those boxes could make a decent little core for you. Personally, I might go with one DA box and one BA box for a little variety, and you can sell whichever upgrade sprues you don't end up using.


Thanks! It is a box which definitely had units I was already excited about, so it felt like a natural place to start.

I also want to order some additional staples so I ordered an extra box of regular and Assault Intercessors, Infiltrators, a few Primeris HQ choices, and Eradicators.

I genuinely want Terminators too, but the kit is so.... quaint, at its age. My Chaos Termies just look so much better, as do my wife's Death Guard ones.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/28 17:03:00


Post by: bullyboy


well, if you end up playing Dark Angels, the Deathwing terminator kit is one of the best looking kits in the game. Even if yo don't make them as knights, you can still give the regular terminators robes.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/28 18:04:13


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


I 100% want to, but they're sold out EVERYWHERE.

Oh, while I am asking, are any of the Forgeworld Dreads competitive these days?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/02/28 18:20:16


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I 100% want to, but they're sold out EVERYWHERE.

Oh, while I am asking, are any of the Forgeworld Dreads competitive these days?


From my gaming circle, the changes to FW Index and the Core keyword means that mainstream Redemptor Dreadnoughts are doing very well while Leviathans are seen less compared to a year ago. Contemptors are still good.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/01 08:46:03


Post by: Smirrors


So I played a competitive 2k game vs DG with Morty which I lost.

Stubborn Defiance is good but can be a trap. I had a 10 man block of terminators which I designated as the obsec unit. Big mistake. As he just focused on my other units and eventually I felt the need to commit the termies which lost me points.

The only time I think I will take Stubborn Defiance is where I think the enemy has no way to artillery or get to my back objective.

Termies, Ancient and Apothecary was definitely very durable. Having a character with Reliquary of the Repentent relic to reduce Invul save was critical in helping bring down mortal along with aura removal.

Ezekiel is nice. I think I would go for Trephination to increase the mortal wounds output. So mortal would, obsec removal and aura removal.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/01 13:31:37


Post by: addnid


 Smirrors wrote:
So I played a competitive 2k game vs DG with Morty which I lost.

Stubborn Defiance is good but can be a trap. I had a 10 man block of terminators which I designated as the obsec unit. Big mistake. As he just focused on my other units and eventually I felt the need to commit the termies which lost me points.

The only time I think I will take Stubborn Defiance is where I think the enemy has no way to artillery or get to my back objective.

Termies, Ancient and Apothecary was definitely very durable. Having a character with Reliquary of the Repentent relic to reduce Invul save was critical in helping bring down mortal along with aura removal.

Ezekiel is nice. I think I would go for Trephination to increase the mortal wounds output. So mortal would, obsec removal and aura removal.


A 5 termi unit is enough IMHO, in my game vs Sista this saturday, I even had my 5 termi unit leave the objective for turns 4 and 5, as my whirlwind was content on taking up the babysitting role (nothing my opponent had could go steal it).
10 termi cost a soul shattering fith of your amry points, anything short of bullying the midfield is not worth the 400 point investment (and even then, you do it only if you really need to, against DG you probably do, if only to block mortarion with them, giving them the -1 wound provided by the ancient's relic).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/01 17:56:51


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The fine print for Stubborn Defiance requires that you hold the objective with the same Obsec unit for the consecutive turns to get the points. You can’t use a Whirlwind, and even a different Obsec unit would restart the VP gain.

It can be a good Secondary, but it’s an investment and it paints a big target on the unit.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 02:33:36


Post by: Smirrors


Yes you would IMO need at the minimum storm shield termies to sit there and only take that secondary if the enemy doesn't have ways to get their own obsec (either through troops or stuff like Rites of Battle) or deny obsec (like DA psychic power).

It will be important to know how enemies can deny it so you know when to pick it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 addnid wrote:

A 5 termi unit is enough IMHO, in my game vs Sista this saturday, I even had my 5 termi unit leave the objective for turns 4 and 5, as my whirlwind was content on taking up the babysitting role (nothing my opponent had could go steal it).



Stubborn defiance is heavily back ended so if you had left after start of turn 4, you would get max 9. For a casual game you can probably leave after 4 if you knew you were winning but in a competitive match you would probably stay the full 5 turns to max score. Also termies are pretty slow so once you commit to it you're unlikely to get them anywhere useful unless the enemy came to you.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 08:52:05


Post by: addnid


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The fine print for Stubborn Defiance requires that you hold the objective with the same Obsec unit for the consecutive turns to get the points. You can’t use a Whirlwind, and even a different Obsec unit would restart the VP gain.

It can be a good Secondary, but it’s an investment and it paints a big target on the unit.


Ah ok thanks for the clarification, you are right ! Well I could have just stayed with the termi unit on the objective, it really would have not changed that game at all. I still maintain that with 2 or 3 units of servitors (only 30 points each) and one 5 termi combat squad with 2 cyclone missiles, you can quite easily stay on the objective and screen for DSing enemy unbits. No need for a full 10 termi squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey on a totally different topic , on art of war they call the DA list the guy is presenting "The Fun Sponge". Because it sucks the fun out of the game.

What do you all think ? I feel to partial (I can finally play all my DW termis yeah !!) so I would like some less partial intake on this
Is it fun to play against such bullet sponge armies (I guess DG is also a bullet sponge army, so perhaps Sponginess is a hot topic right now)

here is the link if anyone needs
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2021/03/01/aow-ep-80-1-will-dark-angels-take-over-the-meta/


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 14:35:16


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


So I pulled the trigger on a Covid stimulus sized Marine army, and as I said earlier, will probably want to run them as Dark Angels. To that end... which books do I need? Obviously the DA Codex, but is it treated like a supplement? Can I also use options from the Space Marine Codex since it was a 9th Ed book for DA as well?


Can I, for example take an upgraded Apothecary for the "return dead models" Selfless Healer thing?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 17:22:30


Post by: ninjafiredragon


 Smirrors wrote:
Having a character with Reliquary of the Repentent relic to reduce Invul save was critical in helping bring down mortal along with aura removal.


Not sure if you meant that removing Morty's aura helped to take him down, but do know that Morty only has one aura, and its one of his 3 warlord traights. Neither the -1 Toughness, nor the specialist plague company contagion are aura abilities, so Ezekial can't do anything to them. So not sure if removing aura abilities actually do much to help remove Morty.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 18:56:36


Post by: Saldiven


Hope this is the right place for this.

I've been out of 40K since probably the end of 5th ed. I'm kicking around getting back in the game.

I've wanted to make a bike heavy SM army for close to 20 years, but I've always been put off by the God-awful GW SM bike models. I found a really cool model to use, so my motivation is rather high now.

I had originally thought of going with White Scars since they're the proto-type of bike-heavy SM armies. But now that the new Dark Angels book is out, Ravenwing might be an option, too.

So, would anyone have suggestions for a bike heavy Ravenwing army? It's unfortunate that bikes still can't be taken as troops, which I think is dumb, but what can I do? I know that Outriders and Black Knights are really good. I assume I'd also want some regular bikers to pad the number on the field. Talonmasters aren't bikes, but they're good, and I want bike-heavy, not nothing-but-bikes. Bike Apothecaries and Bike Chaplain seem like an auto-include. Captain or Samael?

It's been so long since I played 40K (more than 10 years) that I don't know where to begin in building a list anymore.

Any help that could be offered would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 20:40:48


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


@Saldiven, While bikes aren't troops the new book does let you build Outrider detachments that both refund the CP cost, and make bikes Obsec. For all intents and purposes, they are troops and you can build almost exclusively bike lists.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 20:58:45


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Saldiven wrote:
Hope this is the right place for this.

I've been out of 40K since probably the end of 5th ed. I'm kicking around getting back in the game.

I've wanted to make a bike heavy SM army for close to 20 years, but I've always been put off by the God-awful GW SM bike models. I found a really cool model to use, so my motivation is rather high now.

I had originally thought of going with White Scars since they're the proto-type of bike-heavy SM armies. But now that the new Dark Angels book is out, Ravenwing might be an option, too.

So, would anyone have suggestions for a bike heavy Ravenwing army? It's unfortunate that bikes still can't be taken as troops, which I think is dumb, but what can I do? I know that Outriders and Black Knights are really good. I assume I'd also want some regular bikers to pad the number on the field. Talonmasters aren't bikes, but they're good, and I want bike-heavy, not nothing-but-bikes. Bike Apothecaries and Bike Chaplain seem like an auto-include. Captain or Samael?

It's been so long since I played 40K (more than 10 years) that I don't know where to begin in building a list anymore.

Any help that could be offered would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


In a 2000 point game, you can include up to 3 detachments. One of the detachments you can use is an outrider detachment, that costs 3 Command Points to take, with a 1 HQ and 3 Fast Attack requirement. The Dark Angel codex has a rule where if you bring one of these outrider detachments, and every model has the ravenwing keyword, then Bikers/outriders get Objective secured (essentially making them troops as the above poster said) and you even refund the cost for the command points if your warlord is in this detachment. So yes, it is very possible to make a bike heavy/all bike army, and you dont need to bring any normal troops at all!

Attack bikes are kindof hot business right now, so if you can find a way for a few of those to fit into the list with multi meltas, you will be feeling good. Otherwise you are right about captain/chaplain on bike, either are good choices IMO. I honestly dont think you will go terribly wrong no matter what you do, the codex seems to have a lot of good options. Just know all the landspeeders (except talon master) are very easily killed.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 21:07:34


Post by: Saldiven


Interesting; thanks for the information. My FLGS has been having some issues with getting stock in from GW (including codices for DA and SM) despite being one of the largest GW retailers in the Southeast USA. So, I haven't been able to dig over the actual rules, but just examining stuff I can find online in reviews, etc. I feel like I'm trying to build a list blind, but I want to have a decent list in mind before I start laying out money for models.

Thanks a lot for the help.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/02 21:32:57


Post by: Kelligula


Hey guys. I'm like Saldiven, but my break was only from around the end of 8th.

I'm Primaris only since that's what I started with and want to stick with that. However, my friend thinks I should use a different chapter since I don't plan to buy Terminators or Black Knights (I'm also now painting my DA in the OG legion colors). I don't hate Firstborn or anything, it's just the size difference in a single force really bothers me. I've gone back and forth on Chapters before, but am really wanting to settle on just one so I can stop stripping things and actually put transfers on and actually base my minis.

However, the seed of doubt has been planted and I'm wondering if my growing Primaris army would be better suited with different chapter tactics? I'm just asking before I decide to buy some Nephilim Jetfighters since those flyers are gorgeous and they don't have the scale issues the Firstborn infantry have with the rest of my army.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/03 04:59:27


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 Kelligula wrote:
Hey guys. I'm like Saldiven, but my break was only from around the end of 8th.

I'm Primaris only since that's what I started with and want to stick with that. However, my friend thinks I should use a different chapter since I don't plan to buy Terminators or Black Knights (I'm also now painting my DA in the OG legion colors). I don't hate Firstborn or anything, it's just the size difference in a single force really bothers me. I've gone back and forth on Chapters before, but am really wanting to settle on just one so I can stop stripping things and actually put transfers on and actually base my minis.

However, the seed of doubt has been planted and I'm wondering if my growing Primaris army would be better suited with different chapter tactics? I'm just asking before I decide to buy some Nephilim Jetfighters since those flyers are gorgeous and they don't have the scale issues the Firstborn infantry have with the rest of my army.


You can certainly play effective Primaris Dark Angels with Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, Outriders and Bladeguard. Our best characters are “Old Marines”, but Azrael works just fine with Primaris.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/03 06:09:39


Post by: Kelligula


@TangoTwoBravo

Yeah I shouldn't doubt it, I guess it's just me feeling like I'm doing it wrong by painting them Black or not using the most effective models. My models my way I guess. Thanks for the feedback!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/03 16:20:43


Post by: Blacksteel


If you are painting them black then you are doing it right as the Ravenwing uses black as their primary color anyway.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/04 18:01:55


Post by: bullyboy


yeah, you can absolutely get some mileage out of all Primaris DA. Your Deathwing elements can utilize Bladeguard and a Captain/Lt. Your Librarians are automatically inducted into the Deathwing. You now have a Primaris Chaplain on bike who is Ravenwing. Outriders, ATVs and the speeders are all Ravenwing.
As you mention, fliers don't really have a specific identity.
People have also been converting the storm speeder chassis into vengeance speeders (just need the plasma battery).
You could also model many of the special characters as Primaris, even though you'd have to use stats in book. It's just not necessary.

I think a tri-wing DA would work just fine.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/07 01:53:44


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Took a 1500 point Ravenwing army for a test-drive today against Drukhari Coven list. Our next local tourney is a "Great Crusade" where you have to take a named character as your Warlord and heroics on the tabletop are encouraged. I took Sammael, a Talonmaster, two Outrider Squadrons, two Bike Squadrons (one with an attached Attack Bike), a five-man Black Knight Squadron, a Chief Ravenwing Apothecary (because that's what you do), a Ravenwing Champion with the Invul Debuff and a Landspeeder Vengeance that looked suspiciously like a Darkshroud with the Plasma Storm Battery attached with magnets...

He had Uriel, a Haemoculous, four squads of Wracks, two big squads of Grotesques and two Talos squads of three. We rolled up Vital Intelligence so much geometry ensued. I took While we Stand we Fight, Domination and Martial Interdiction because it fit the theme.

He got first turn and grabbed all the central objectives with Wracks on the objectives and Grots/Talos' in depth. I responded with Bikes going after his wings while the Black Knights went after one Talos Squad. My bikes did well against his Wracks, and this was one of two turns when I had Domination...One Grot squad (which was one of his While We Stand We Fight) squads was reduced to two models.

He pulled that Grot squad to hold his home objective and pushed his Talos against my Black Knights while his other Grots went after my right flank. The Black Knights lost one of their number, but we all knew that this was just a flesh wound. Having lost a Bike Squadron to the Talos my Black Knights used Intractable to fall back and shoot while the Champion cheekily moved up to debuff. One Talos squad was reduced to a single wounded Talos that the Champion charged and dispatched with the sword.

The Champion miraculously survived the other Talos squad. My right flank was not so lucky and was wiped out. I then counter-punched and killed the other Talos Squad.

In turn four Uriel backpedaled but Sammael made a miraculous charge. Uriel was left with one wound...after using his free once per game re-roll.

Uriel fell back, and I cursed my spendthrift ways that meant I had lacked enough CP to use a Statis Shell the previous turn. Lesson learned when you take that Secondary. Uriel got behind the second Grotesque squad on an objective. I went in hard with everything I had left, and Sammael flew over the Grots to dispatch Uriel and garner VPs. The Black Knights killed most of the Grotesques with plasma and Corvus Hammers. Sammael lived, garnering 15 VP for the Martial Interdiction Secondary and another 5 for staying alive.

A wild, swirling battle. I would not recommend that Secondary for rational, competitive players but it sure was fun with Sammael. The Champion with the Debuff Relic was a real weapon, while the Ravenwing Apothecary is money in the bank (he brought back three Black Knights and healed the Champion twice). The Vengeance didn't kill anything. Since the model survived the game I don't think it was shiny model syndrome but rather angry Stone Guardians resentful of having a Plasma battery attached to their sacred vehicle.

9th Edition Ravenwing play much differently than 8th Edition. No more Sableclaw/Talonmaster deathball. Its refreshing. The lack of infantry, though, meant that entire categories of Secondaries were unavailable. Its a "with your shield or on it" kind of list.

p.s. Obsec Outriders and Bike Sqns are great



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/07 05:53:12


Post by: ZergSmasher


Nice write-up. Your list is very much like what I'd like to run as an all-Ravenwing list, although I might try a Storm Speeder rather than a Vengeance in mine and see if it works well. Did you take Attack Bikes in your regular bike units? Because I'm giving that idea some serious thought myself.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/07 12:09:01


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Nice write-up. Your list is very much like what I'd like to run as an all-Ravenwing list, although I might try a Storm Speeder rather than a Vengeance in mine and see if it works well. Did you take Attack Bikes in your regular bike units? Because I'm giving that idea some serious thought myself.


Thanks!

One of the squads had an attached Attack Bike (I've since edited the post). I am going back and forth on regular Bike Squadrons vs Outriders. The Bike Squadrons shoot really well, but the Outriders are better at "flipping" objectives. Perhaps a mix is the way? I am playing with the list to see if I can put an Attack Bike in both Ravenwing Bike Squadrons. It felt strange in the game to leave Bike Squadrons sitting still, but its an objective game.

The Vengeance is much better than it was before, but I'm still not convinced. Having Flat Damage 4 shots with Weapons from the Dark Age is so good, but it doesn't have Core so you only have CP rerolls.

At 2000 points I think a good design would be a Ravenwing Outrider with a Greenwing Patrol.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/07 13:27:21


Post by: bullyboy


I played my 2000pt Ravenwing list to great success yesterday. Don't forget their is a strat in SM codex for bikes/speeders to fall back and shoot that is only 1CP. So with Intractable, you can do 2 units if necessary.
I used vengeance and typhoons to sit on my back objectives, often swapping places (I took the Ravenwing secondary which I maxed out early), but also stayed stationary occasionally for the +1 to hit.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/16 10:57:47


Post by: Timur


Hi everyone.

Was trying to think off a competitive list using only our terminators and so i came up with this:

Terminators x10 330
cyclone x2 50
hammer x7 70
fists x3 15
465

Terminators x10 330
fists x8 40
hammers x2 20
cyclone x2 50
440

Command Terminators x5 175
fists x4
hammer x1

Assault Terminators x10 330
hammer x10 100

Ezekiel
Ravenwing Apothecary + selfless healer
Bladeguard Ancient + pennant of remembrance
Ineterrogator chaplain jumpack +1 to advance and charge rolls trait


Many say that termies are not very mobile, i dont find that to be true.
5 + Advance +1 to advance has very good chances of getting to a midffield objective.
They are usually 12 inches away -5 move -1 from advance bonus = 6
Objectives control area is 7.57 in in diameter, so you only need to roll a 3+ to get within the objective.

So there should not be any problems with grabbing objectives, and once termies get there they arent going anywhere anytime soon

As for secondaries, there are two missions which allow farming VP easily:
1. Oaths of atonement (no mercy no respite) - just sit in midfield and get 15 vp, easy
2. Stubborn defiance (battlefield supremacy) - pick an objective, park your terminators squad on it = profit
3 For third you could go psychic ritual, or investigate sites which is also pretty solid since you want to be midfield anyways

So all secondaries are scored just by staying still )

I have yet try it out, and i was wondering if anyone else thought or tried maxing out terminators










For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/16 17:07:28


Post by: ZergSmasher


I myself had put together a list I called "Oops, all Terminators", attempting to use only the models in my collection to make a pure Deathwing army with nothing but terminators, but then I realized I was actually one model short of actually being able to assemble the list. So I made a second version that I do have the models for:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
No Forge Org Slot:
2-man Deathwing Command Squad: 1x TH/SS, 1x Twin LC
Deathwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary
Deathwing Champion
Ancient in Terminator Armor: Pennant of Remembrance, Hero of the Chapter (Watched), Twin LC
HQ:
Belial: Warlord
Librarian in Terminator Armor: Aversion, Righteous Repugnance
Elites:
2-man Deathwing Command Squad: 1x TH/SS, 1x Twin LC
10-man Deathwing Knights: Watcher
10-man Deathwing Terminators: TH/SS on Sgt., 2x CML, Watcher
5-man Deathwing Terminators: Assault Cannon
5-man Relic Terminators: 5x LC, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon, Grenade Harness
2000 points on the nose

The list has 39 models and really is not optimal for competitive play, but it's intended as kind of a meme list rather than something I would run in a tournament. Some of the regular dudes have chainfists instead of power fists but they cost the same so I didn't note them. I considered dropping one DW knight and adding other upgrades like more Watchers and making the Librarian a Chief Librarian, but decided to go with more of a "boys before toys" approach. This is basically every Terminator in my collection; I've got like 3 random guys left over.

To truly optimize this for tournament play, I would ditch the meme and probably replace Belial with Azrael, replace the Librarian with Ezekiel, and replace the Apothecary with a Ravenwing one. I would probably drop 2-3 of the Knights and the small Termie squad, replacing them with some Bladeguard for midfield brawling duty. I might have to post what I come up with as an optimized version of this list later.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/16 21:03:11


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


@Timur,

I had a game at the FLGS today in preparation for an upcoming 1500 point tournament. I took the list I was already planning to take but I figured I would test your idea on the tabletop.

Belial and Ezekiel; Deathwing Ancient (Relic) and Deathwing Apothecary (WL); Ravenwing Champion (sorry); Deathwing Terminator x 5, Deathwing Terminator x 5, Deathwing Knights x 5, Deathwing Command Squad (3 dudes) and Contemptor Dreadnought. I went up against Deathwatch and we rolled up Battle Lines. This was a good test since there is no central objective.

With some decent advance rolls I was on the centre at the end of my first turn, chewing through an Incursor Squad along the way. A Deathwing Squad sat on my objectiveto achieve the Secondary. There were some blocked LOS but my opponent could easily see the objective from the wings (he had Eradicators and a bunch of Missile Launchers). He came at me, but the Deathwing Knights burst through his centre by the end of the 3rd Turn while the Command Squad, a second Deathwing Squad and Ezekiel looked after part of Oath of Moment and Psychic Ritual (I guess Ezekiel I was extracting the psychic memory of some Fallen dude). The Deathwing Knights ate a ton of shooting, losing one model who was promptly revived. Heartbreaking really.

Objective control was an issue through the first two turns, but I gradually cleared him off the objectives through assault with some shooting. The concept can work, but a hordier enemy might have been an issue. The Incursers worked against him, as they let me slingshot my Dreadnought forward which then became a scary Distraction Carnifex in his lines. That is what drew him forward with a large close combat squad which in turn was destroyed by the Deathwing Knights. The Secondary was certainly 15 points, but it also took one of my Squads out of the fight (their Cyclone popped off shots).

It was nice to run Belial, but I think Azrael would have done his job better. The Ravenwing Champion was cheeky. I think there is a place for Ravenwing Black Knights in a 1st Company Vanguard.

All that to say, the concept can work on the tabletop, but I am not saying its a slam dunk either!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/17 02:53:58


Post by: Timur


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
@Timur,

I had a game at the FLGS today in preparation for an upcoming 1500 point tournament. I took the list I was already planning to take but I figured I would test your idea on the tabletop.

Belial and Ezekiel; Deathwing Ancient (Relic) and Deathwing Apothecary (WL); Ravenwing Champion (sorry); Deathwing Terminator x 5, Deathwing Terminator x 5, Deathwing Knights x 5, Deathwing Command Squad (3 dudes) and Contemptor Dreadnought. I went up against Deathwatch and we rolled up Battle Lines. This was a good test since there is no central objective.

With some decent advance rolls I was on the centre at the end of my first turn, chewing through an Incursor Squad along the way. A Deathwing Squad sat on my objectiveto achieve the Secondary. There were some blocked LOS but my opponent could easily see the objective from the wings (he had Eradicators and a bunch of Missile Launchers). He came at me, but the Deathwing Knights burst through his centre by the end of the 3rd Turn while the Command Squad, a second Deathwing Squad and Ezekiel looked after part of Oath of Moment and Psychic Ritual (I guess Ezekiel I was extracting the psychic memory of some Fallen dude). The Deathwing Knights ate a ton of shooting, losing one model who was promptly revived. Heartbreaking really.

Objective control was an issue through the first two turns, but I gradually cleared him off the objectives through assault with some shooting. The concept can work, but a hordier enemy might have been an issue. The Incursers worked against him, as they let me slingshot my Dreadnought forward which then became a scary Distraction Carnifex in his lines. That is what drew him forward with a large close combat squad which in turn was destroyed by the Deathwing Knights. The Secondary was certainly 15 points, but it also took one of my Squads out of the fight (their Cyclone popped off shots).

It was nice to run Belial, but I think Azrael would have done his job better. The Ravenwing Champion was cheeky. I think there is a place for Ravenwing Black Knights in a 1st Company Vanguard.

All that to say, the concept can work on the tabletop, but I am not saying its a slam dunk either!


Thanks for your input, i feel a little bit more confident now about the list

Yes, i understand that hordes could be a problem, but i think even then it may be possible to come out even

Anyways, i'll post a write up about how it performs as soon as i get a chance to test it))


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
I myself had put together a list I called "Oops, all Terminators", attempting to use only the models in my collection to make a pure Deathwing army with nothing but terminators, but then I realized I was actually one model short of actually being able to assemble the list. So I made a second version that I do have the models for:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
No Forge Org Slot:
2-man Deathwing Command Squad: 1x TH/SS, 1x Twin LC
Deathwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary
Deathwing Champion
Ancient in Terminator Armor: Pennant of Remembrance, Hero of the Chapter (Watched), Twin LC
HQ:
Belial: Warlord
Librarian in Terminator Armor: Aversion, Righteous Repugnance
Elites:
2-man Deathwing Command Squad: 1x TH/SS, 1x Twin LC
10-man Deathwing Knights: Watcher
10-man Deathwing Terminators: TH/SS on Sgt., 2x CML, Watcher
5-man Deathwing Terminators: Assault Cannon
5-man Relic Terminators: 5x LC, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon, Grenade Harness
2000 points on the nose

The list has 39 models and really is not optimal for competitive play, but it's intended as kind of a meme list rather than something I would run in a tournament. Some of the regular dudes have chainfists instead of power fists but they cost the same so I didn't note them. I considered dropping one DW knight and adding other upgrades like more Watchers and making the Librarian a Chief Librarian, but decided to go with more of a "boys before toys" approach. This is basically every Terminator in my collection; I've got like 3 random guys left over.

To truly optimize this for tournament play, I would ditch the meme and probably replace Belial with Azrael, replace the Librarian with Ezekiel, and replace the Apothecary with a Ravenwing one. I would probably drop 2-3 of the Knights and the small Termie squad, replacing them with some Bladeguard for midfield brawling duty. I might have to post what I come up with as an optimized version of this list later.


I would recommend including a chaplain, 5++ from mortal wounds is very useful, and the rerolls in melee


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/17 03:31:41


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
I myself had put together a list I called "Oops, all Terminators", attempting to use only the models in my collection to make a pure Deathwing army with nothing but terminators, but then I realized I was actually one model short of actually being able to assemble the list. So I made a second version that I do have the models for:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
No Forge Org Slot:
2-man Deathwing Command Squad: 1x TH/SS, 1x Twin LC
Deathwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary
Deathwing Champion
Ancient in Terminator Armor: Pennant of Remembrance, Hero of the Chapter (Watched), Twin LC
HQ:
Belial: Warlord
Librarian in Terminator Armor: Aversion, Righteous Repugnance
Elites:
2-man Deathwing Command Squad: 1x TH/SS, 1x Twin LC
10-man Deathwing Knights: Watcher
10-man Deathwing Terminators: TH/SS on Sgt., 2x CML, Watcher
5-man Deathwing Terminators: Assault Cannon
5-man Relic Terminators: 5x LC, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon, Grenade Harness
2000 points on the nose

The list has 39 models and really is not optimal for competitive play, but it's intended as kind of a meme list rather than something I would run in a tournament. Some of the regular dudes have chainfists instead of power fists but they cost the same so I didn't note them. I considered dropping one DW knight and adding other upgrades like more Watchers and making the Librarian a Chief Librarian, but decided to go with more of a "boys before toys" approach. This is basically every Terminator in my collection; I've got like 3 random guys left over.

To truly optimize this for tournament play, I would ditch the meme and probably replace Belial with Azrael, replace the Librarian with Ezekiel, and replace the Apothecary with a Ravenwing one. I would probably drop 2-3 of the Knights and the small Termie squad, replacing them with some Bladeguard for midfield brawling duty. I might have to post what I come up with as an optimized version of this list later.


I like either one! I still think that there is a place for Deathwing Knights, and ten is a threat to anything. I also agree that Azrael just seems better than Belial. Teleporting is an option with Belial, but its giving up on two turns of Chapter Master and you can get zoned out anyway. I just ran my Deathwing Knights forward today and they were ahead of where my teleporting Deathwing Squad ended up.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/17 03:38:16


Post by: Timur


Also, when fielding a 10 man terminator squad with cyclones, dont forget that you can split the squad)

if there arent too many long range threats a 5 man squad can easily survive through 5 rounds sitting on a backfield objective.

Toss in a few shields for more survivability and put them in cover


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/17 09:56:24


Post by: addnid


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
@Timur,

I had a game at the FLGS today in preparation for an upcoming 1500 point tournament. I took the list I was already planning to take but I figured I would test your idea on the tabletop.
---
The concept can work, but a hordier enemy might have been an issue.
---
All that to say, the concept can work on the tabletop, but I am not saying its a slam dunk either!


I have bought + converted more (8 exactly) lightning claw termies, and 4 + 5 bladeguards in case I land on hordes. I think hordes can beat us with little effort by simply sitting on mid table objectives and DSing stuff into our zone for scramblers and stuff. We have too few models to prevent that really (though we have inflitrators but still). So we need to be ablt obliterate hordes around turn 4 I think.

Also, running full termi is a risk against an opponent who runs krrot hounds or 30 kraken hormagaunts, as they can turn 1 body block us into our deployment zone. I would even go as far as to say this is the main threat we face atm. It also works against DG, so we might start seeing a lot of this (though tyranids and tau are, highly mistakenly, considered as not that good atm).

But it really depends how comp your environment is. I play in a WTC preping group with people who read all the latest tricks and constantly try to come up with new ones. Below that "skill level", going all termi is probably fine


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/17 14:55:58


Post by: Timur


In my meta no one has so much terminators) im literally the only dark angels player in town with 30+ termies
We will have a huge team tournament in may, 20 teams 100 people, it could be a surprise for many players to see so much terminators



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/17 23:03:06


Post by: addnid


Timur wrote:
In my meta no one has so much terminators) im literally the only dark angels player in town with 30+ termies
We will have a huge team tournament in may, 20 teams 100 people, it could be a surprise for many players to see so much terminators



It probably will, 30+ is indeed a lot. I have 35 and 9 bladeguard, they all together don’t even fit in a 2000 point list (not when Rw talon masters and apothecary are so badly needed in such a list).
It is good to hear about such event being planned, and to see COVID hasn’t killed all hopes everywhere ! That event sounds like it will be a blast !!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/18 00:51:57


Post by: ZergSmasher


New Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article showing the top 4 lists at a recent event in New Zealand, and Dark Angels took 2nd place with pure Ravenwing.

Linky for the curious: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-equinox-40k/

Apparently 5th place was also pure Ravenwing, but basically pure Land Speeders of various types. Curiouser and curiouser...

My takeaway from this is that I might need more bikes, especially Attack Bikes. I only own one and you can't find them anywhere, either in stores or on eBay unless you want some overpriced "pro painted" ones.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/18 01:18:41


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


While folks were melting down over Eradicators my three Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas were, well, melting things down! That was before they received Jink. Now they are even better.

Maxing out on Death on the Wind is absolutely achievable, although you have to watch for the restrictions. I've run both all-Deathwing and all-Ravenwing. The Ravenwing can certainly pose more of a dilemma to the opponent due to their mobility, and Obsec bikers are great. I am looking for improved ways to make flip objectives through assault. Black Knights can do it through wiping out the opponent holding the objective, but they lack the native Obsec that Outriders get in a Ravenwing detachment. Outriders get plenty of attacks, but stuggle against armoured foes. Might try Rites of War as an additional WL trait on my Champion and see how that works with the Black Knights.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/18 05:36:01


Post by: ZergSmasher


I'm actually looking for viable alternatives to Attack Bikes since they are kind of unavailable right now. My ideas for this are:
-Invader ATVs. I do own three of them, but they lack CORE, can't be revived by an Apothecary, and are significantly more expensive, although on the plus side they are more durable, especially with Jink being a thing.
-Eradicators. They aren't Ravenwing so wouldn't work in a pure list, but even with the price hike they got recently I think they are still very good. Not as OP as the doomsayers were thinking, though.
-Land Speeders. They can be okay melta caddies, perhaps, but honestly I like the ATVs better.
-Storm Speeder Hammerstrike: Very pricey, but basically carries a whole Attack Bike unit's worth of firepower. I like the stratagem to give it a 4++ without needing to Advance, which means DA might be the only chapter in which it is viable at all.
-Devastators: The OG melta bros. I like them, but they are basically worse Eradicators.

Speaking of Storm Speeders, I'm actually warming up to the idea of running a Thunderstrike as a backfield unit, using the range of its guns to keep it out of harm's way. It's durable enough that it takes real firepower to kill it, and it's dangerous enough to make the opponent want to spend that firepower on it, meaning that your other units (e.g. Black Knights) won't be eating those shots. I don't think I'd run more than one as only one vehicle can get the 4++ from the stratagem, but exactly one could have some play. Or at least it feels like it.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/03/20 22:09:00


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Took a mostly Primaris list for a test run today for our upcoming tournament. Haven't run "Greenwing" in a while, so I went mostly Primaris with Lazarus as my Warlord. Ezekiel went along to supervise. Assault Intercessors, Intercessors, Infiltrators, Plasma Inceptors, two Eradicator Squads, a Bladeguard Squad, an Apothecary, a Bladeguard Squad and a Bladeguard Ancient provided the muscle. Oh, and a squad of Deathwing Knights...Lazarus gives that 5++ against Mortal Wounds, so I thought he might work well with them.

Went up against Ravenguard with Shrike, a Smash Captain, Vanguard Veterans, Inceptors, Incursors, Intercessors and Eradicators backed by a Redemptor. We rolled up Battlelines: four objectives.

I decided to test "hold the centre of the battlefield" method again with Oath of Moment and Psychic Ritual and again took Stubborn Defiance. Plan was to park the Deathwing Knights in the centre of the Board with Lazarus and Ezekiel while the Bladeguard and Assault Intercessors seized/contested a mid-field objectives.

He had first turn, and pressed hard on my left flank with all his Jump troops. One of his squads made contact with my Assault Intercessors. The melee was somewhat ineffectual. I was now faced with a decision: keep the DW Knights going to the centre and abandon my left flank giving his jump troops a straight shot at my homefield objective; or send my DW Knights into the Vanguard Veterans and trust the Bladeguard to hold the centre with Ezekiel. I opted to divert the DW Knights. The Eradicators took down the Redemptor while the DW Knights wiped out one squad of Vanguard Vets.

His Smashcaptain vaulted over everyone and took out my Apothecary and tied up an Eradicator Squad. His other VV moved back to the left flank mid-field objective with Shrike and Incursors. He was looking good on three Objectives. I was once again faced with a decision - send the DW Knights back against the Smashcaptain or fowards towards the left flank mid-field Objective and destroy the other Vanguard Veterans. I figured I had enough firepower to kill the Smashcaptain. The Intercessors took up the centre while Ezekiel and the Bladeguard went for the right flank to deal with the recently arrived enemy Eradicators and seize the right flank objective. Ezekiel turned off the Obsec for the Incursors. My shooting reduced the Smashcaptain to one wound...The Deathwing Knights charged and destroyed the VVs but the Bladeguard failed a 4" charge...Ezekiel and the Bladeguard Ancient made a charge into the remaining Eradicators, killing them and taking the right flank objective (the Incursors only had one model within 3").

His Smashcaptain took on my Assault Intercessors who had been repositioned as a speed bump near my home objective. Massed fire wiped out my DW Knights. Things looked grim. Ezekiel joined the Intercessors at the midfield and started the Ritual by rolling a 12... I spent my 1 remaining cp and was successful. My firepower was once again unable to hurt the Smash Captain (one wound remaining...), but the Bladeguard Veterans killed Shrike in melee.

Turn 4 saw his centre/left flank Incursors wiped out by Ezekiel, Lazarus and the Intercessors while my Bladeguard were gunned down. His Smash Captain chewed through the Assault Intercessors and my last Eradicators.

At the start of my 5th turn I was on three Objectives, but his Smashcaptain was on my home objective facing a single Infiltrator who had passed morale. I fell back, since I could score the objective and had already got the max for Stubborn Defiance by passing morale in his turn. The Smashcaptain finally fell to Inceptor Plasma.

I won 73 to 69. Getting 15 for Stubborn Defiance and 15 for Psychic Ritual was great, and Oaths of Moment gave me enough despite falling back twice. My plan for Secondaries made scoring Primaries a struggle. Might be more viable at 2000 points when you have more stuff. Lazarus survived the game despite my trash-talking of him on the first page. I think he could be a support character to Deathwing but competitvely Azrael is just so much better for the points. I also think if Psychic Ritual is the plan then you need to take two Psykers - the powers are just so good.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/04/01 00:55:48


Post by: ZergSmasher


Another Goonhammer article, and another top 4 finish for Dark Angels, this time at the West Australia Iron Man event.

Link: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-brisbane-west-australia-iron-man/

Interesting mix of Deathwing and Ravenwing, a combo everyone was talking about when the book first dropped.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/04/01 16:44:17


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Two questions for my big-brain competitive fellows...

1. I was lucky enough to get nine Attack Bikes, and am debating their builds. Should I go 9x Melta, or 6x Melta/3x Heavy Bolter, so units of three have some ablative wounds before losing efficiency?

2. Can I take Stubborn Defiance and Oath of the Moment, or is there a restriction on one "special" secondary only?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/04/01 20:31:21


Post by: bmsattler


1. The price difference between a Melta and Heavy Bolter bike is pretty small. I wouldn't consider either of them 'ablative wounds.' If anything, putting an attack bike in a Bike Squad would be a better way of getting that effect. Personally, I'd go Melta all the way.

2. You can take both Stubborn Defiance and Oath of Moment as the rules stand. You're restricted to one secondary per book, and one per category. These are separate in both categories.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/04/20 21:33:02


Post by: ninjafiredragon


I got 3 potential lists I want to bring to a local 1000 pt warhammer tournament. Help me decide.

Greenwing Patrol
Azrael
Primaris Chaplain on bike, master of sanctity, Catechism of Fire, Mantra of Strength, Benidiction of fury, emperors sword -1 cp

9 intercessors with bolt rifle

4 man deathwing command squad THSS/LC
Redemptor dread, plasma, gatling, rockets

Inceptors x3, plasma




Vangaurd Deathwing Detachment

Ezekial - Aversion, Rightous Repugnance, Englufing fear
Ravenwing talonmaster - rite of war, arbitors gaze

2 man deathwing command squad
6 man deathwing stormbolter/chainfist with 2 THSS
5 man deathwing stormbolter/chainfist with 1 THSS
Redemptor Dread, inner circle, Plasma, Gatling, Rockets




Ravenwing Outrider Detachment

Ravenwing Talonmaster, Rites of War
Attack bike x2, Melta
Attack bike x2, Melta
Outrider Squad
AND
Patrol Detachment
Primaris Chaplain, mantra of strength, benidition of fury, the imperor sword
5 assualt intercessors
2 man deathwing command squad
Inceptor Squad, plasma


Which list sticks out to you as the most all around, do well list? I like certain angles of each of these lists, really torn on what to take. Thoughts?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/04/22 15:09:17


Post by: BDBurrow


IMO Ezekial is as close to a must take as you can get. IDK how much work a redemptor is going to do at 1000 pts? I'd personally run Ezekial with 2 command squads and as many terminators as you can fit. Who could stop that?

So i guess list 2 looks the best.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/04/25 16:13:50


Post by: Oldman Lee


 ZergSmasher wrote:
New Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article showing the top 4 lists at a recent event in New Zealand, and Dark Angels took 2nd place with pure Ravenwing.

Linky for the curious: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-equinox-40k/

Apparently 5th place was also pure Ravenwing, but basically pure Land Speeders of various types. Curiouser and curiouser...

My takeaway from this is that I might need more bikes, especially Attack Bikes. I only own one and you can't find them anywhere, either in stores or on eBay unless you want some overpriced "pro painted" ones.



Both the ravenwing lists are really interesting pitty the speeder one is illegal with the 2 ravenwing champions but other than that very cool.i might give them a try at some point as I do own all the models for both lists


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/09 04:50:32


Post by: ZergSmasher


So, with DE being the new army to beat, might it be time to bring the Stormcannon Leviathan back into lists? Autocannon profile weapons seem to be more value against their vehicles than just about anything else and the aforementioned Leviathan pumps out 16 such shots.

I've been thinking about a combined Greenwing/Ravenwing list with a Leviathan, some Eradicators and maybe some Bladeguard in a Patrol (plus the obligatory troops and HQ), and then a main Ravenwing Outrider detachment with some ObSec bike units, some Attack Bikes, and maybe either a Storm Speeder or Land Speeder Vengeance. I definitely think you need to have something in there to take some of the heat off the Leviathan or it'll just eat every Dark Lance shot from the DE Raiders (or equivalent from other armies).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/09 06:22:01


Post by: bullyboy


 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, with DE being the new army to beat, might it be time to bring the Stormcannon Leviathan back into lists? Autocannon profile weapons seem to be more value against their vehicles than just about anything else and the aforementioned Leviathan pumps out 16 such shots.

I've been thinking about a combined Greenwing/Ravenwing list with a Leviathan, some Eradicators and maybe some Bladeguard in a Patrol (plus the obligatory troops and HQ), and then a main Ravenwing Outrider detachment with some ObSec bike units, some Attack Bikes, and maybe either a Storm Speeder or Land Speeder Vengeance. I definitely think you need to have something in there to take some of the heat off the Leviathan or it'll just eat every Dark Lance shot from the DE Raiders (or equivalent from other armies).


yep, the dark lances will rip through the Leviathan in no time. I do think you want to take a lot of Ravenwing, jink tanking some dark lances helps as will the saturation. A couple units of suppressors also has the right kind of weapon to take on Raiders.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/09 13:40:24


Post by: Oldman Lee


Yeah ravenwing is are best bet for taking on dark eldar just stay clear of spamming attack bikes and black Knights both units are a bit too short range.you need long range to pop the raiders


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/11 05:44:07


Post by: ZergSmasher


Okay, fair points there. Now I'm actually trying to think of everything Dark Angels have that could be good at killing a Raider at range. Leviathans, as mentioned, are an option but not a particularly good one. Personally I don't think very highly of Suppressors either, although at least they are Core. Other units with Autocannon-type weapons include the Predator Destructor (meh), Invictor Warsuit (also meh) and I think Contemptors can take Autocannons of some kind, or the newly popular Volkite whateveritscalled.

Then I got to thinking about our flyers, and how they might actually have a puncher's chance of causing real trouble for DE. The Nephilim's Avenger Mega Bolter puts out 10 D2 shots (at S6), which is pretty nice, in addition to the heavy bolters and missiles. Then there's the Dark Talon and it's mortal-wounding Rift Cannon, and its bolters can cause trouble for most infantry gribblies. Those seem pretty solid for the Death Guard matchup as well, as each successful wound with the Rift Cannon just flat kills one of those ever-popular Deathshroud Terminators.

The Nephilim is probably overcosted for what it does (and would absolutely be a lame duck in the DG matchup), but the Dark Talon might have some real play potential that I have so far overlooked. Flyers aren't super great in general in 9th edition, but being able to kill stuff in your opponent's zone, particularly either objective holders or transports full of melee nastiness, could be useful.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/14 19:26:47


Post by: Vulshra


Two thoughts

1) might land speeder typhoons be a solution? Or maybe even vengeances?
2) why are we concerned about getting too close? I was thinking overwhelming force on the biggest threats, meltas and plasmas pop the transports, bolters on the infantry, then charge with corvus hammers and chainswords


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/19 08:35:10


Post by: addnid


I see no one taking a "relic" twin linked assault canon for the talon master (turning it into a damage 2 assault canon).
Why is that ? Is it "illegal" ?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/19 13:02:43


Post by: Tallandra


 addnid wrote:
I see no one taking a "relic" twin linked assault canon for the talon master (turning it into a damage 2 assault canon).
Why is that ? Is it "illegal" ?

Yeah, Talon Master isn't allowed to take the Master-Crafted Weapon. The Relics and Special-Issue Wargear he's allowed specifically mention that he may take them despite being a vehicle.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/19 13:30:50


Post by: Azuza001


Having said that, 2 talon masters would really tear dark eldar apart. They can hurt their vehicles well, their infantry well, have the speed to get where they need to, and the survival abilities to be kept alive. Just my opinion though.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/19 14:23:50


Post by: addnid


 Tallandra wrote:
 addnid wrote:
I see no one taking a "relic" twin linked assault canon for the talon master (turning it into a damage 2 assault canon).
Why is that ? Is it "illegal" ?

Yeah, Talon Master isn't allowed to take the Master-Crafted Weapon. The Relics and Special-Issue Wargear he's allowed specifically mention that he may take them despite being a vehicle.


THANKS ! Indeed I should have seen that ! And thanks for the quick imput
It would have been OP imo so it is good that it isn't allowed


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/22 07:16:57


Post by: ZergSmasher


Got a game in against a friend's Raven Guard recently. We weren't running anything super competitive, and it was fairly close when we had to wrap it up.
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion
Azrael (Warlord: Brilliant Strategist)
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Heavenfall Blade, Hero of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword)
10 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles
5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles
5 Assault Intercessors: Plasma Pistol
5 Deathwing Terminators: Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1x Chainfist/SB, 3x Powerfist/SB, Power Sword/SB for Sgt.
3 Ravenwing Black Knights: 3x Corvus Hammer
3 Outriders
3 Suppressors
5 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
Predator Annihilator: Lascannon Sponsons
Repulsor: Twin Lascannon, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 3x Storm Bolter, 2x Fragstorm Launcher, Ironhail Heavy Stubber

His list, as best I can remember:
Spoiler:
Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armor: Relic stalker rifle, Warlord (whatever trait that lets him redeploy along with another unit)
Primaris Chaplain: Recitation of Focus
10 Infiltrators: Comms Array
5 Incursors
10 Intercessors: Assault Bolt Rifles
10 Intercessors: Stalker Bolt Rifles
7 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
Redemptor Dreadnought: Macro Plasma Incinerator, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher
3 Invader ATVS: 3x Multi-melta
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3 Eradicators: Melta Rifles
Gladiator Reaper

I don't remember everything about how the game went, but it was a pretty close one. We did add up the points and I would have won by 2 if the last turn we played (turn 3) was the end of the game. Overall it was nice to actually see what Raven Guard can do. They have some neat little tricks! Azrael got his ass sniped on turn 1 by the Phobos Captain and Eliminators. I totally underestimated those guys and paid the price. My 10-man Intercessor brick also got whittled down pretty good on the first turn, and my Pred ate the Eradicators' meltas and also died.

My takeaways:
-As I expected, the Predator is pretty much just a bullseye with treads in 9th edition. There's just way too much hyper-tuned anti-tank stuff in the meta for them to thrive (Eradicators, Retributors, Dark Lances, etc.). Granted, if I had gotten first turn it would have been different but still...
-The Repulsor did better than I expected, but still not really worth its points. If you do insist on running it, it's probably best to use it as an anti-infantry dakkaboat like I did here.
-Invader ATVs are pretty solid. I imagine they are even better in our lists thanks to Jink. More durable than Attack Bikes if not as efficient points-wise. Lack of CORE does hurt though, as my opponent lamented.
-Transhuman Physiology for the win! My Suppressors tanked a bunch of melta shots from the ATVs due to this stratagem (and some unlucky dice from my opponent). Having it always on for Deathwing is amazing as well.
-Talonmasters are pretty great in both melee and shooting if you give them a Heavenfall Blade. You don't even really need the warlord trait.
-Suppressors are good, but not great. Better than they used to be, especially if Drukhari continue to dominate the meta. They are decent at killing Marines too.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/30 19:52:37


Post by: ZergSmasher


So, it looks like as far as changes go the only major one specific to us is that the Talonmaster is going up by 15 points. Ouch, but honestly they were underpriced at 160. I've also heard that the Chief Apothecary upgrade is going to cost more, possibly a lot more, but I haven't seen confirmation on that as yet (haven't looked for it specifically either). That will affect us quite a bit as the Ravenwing Apothecary is in basically every competitive DA list. But, Storm Speeders are getting a reduction and a recent high-placing Ravenwing list had two of those in it, so maybe there's some play there.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/30 20:46:59


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, it looks like as far as changes go the only major one specific to us is that the Talonmaster is going up by 15 points. Ouch, but honestly they were underpriced at 160. I've also heard that the Chief Apothecary upgrade is going to cost more, possibly a lot more, but I haven't seen confirmation on that as yet (haven't looked for it specifically either). That will affect us quite a bit as the Ravenwing Apothecary is in basically every competitive DA list. But, Storm Speeders are getting a reduction and a recent high-placing Ravenwing list had two of those in it, so maybe there's some play there.


Leaks indicate that the Master Apothecary is now 35 points to upgrade, so it will affect most if not all competitive lists.

Regarding your report on your last game, I have started finding points for Company Veterans or Deathwing Command Squads to protect our characters. Our lists tend to rely heavily on character support!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/31 02:53:43


Post by: Smirrors


TM +15
Chief Apothecary +20
MM +5
Inceptors +5

Its definitely going to impact my lists by at least 75pts


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/05/31 14:50:18


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Any suggestions for fighting a super hardcore competitive player who will be bringing Mortarion, a bunch of those War-Dogs (Chaos Armigers?) and assorted Chaos soup? This guy is a high level player so there is no amount of counter-cheese I am unwilling to bring.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/01 03:55:16


Post by: ZergSmasher


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Any suggestions for fighting a super hardcore competitive player who will be bringing Mortarion, a bunch of those War-Dogs (Chaos Armigers?) and assorted Chaos soup? This guy is a high level player so there is no amount of counter-cheese I am unwilling to bring.

Bring meltas. Morty's damage reduction seriously reduces the effectiveness of D2 weapons (like supercharged plasma), although Weapons from the Dark Age mitigates this a little. So D6-damage weapons are better to use if possible. If you have Terminators, make sure you take a Watcher in the Dark on each squad for the chance to deny psychic shenanigans.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/01 07:43:32


Post by: Smirrors


Squads of Attack Bikes are probably the most optimal


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/01 17:43:54


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


I own nine Attack Bikes (6x Melta, 3x Heavy Bolter). Should I run all of them, with each squad having a HB as ablative wounds?

What should I expect from his baby-Chaos Knights? I'm unfamiliar with them, but know he likes to run them as WWSWF denial.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/02 00:29:24


Post by: Vulshra


Ablative wounds aren't that applicable on attack bike squads. The hbs are nearly the same price as the MMs, so it's not worth the pts. I'd opt for just six mm abs and spend the pts you would have spent on the hbs getting more firepower


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/02 00:50:57


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


I own a lot of Deathwing. If I go Ravenwing/Deathwing, should it be a favorable match-up? All the Attack Bikes w/Melta, plus blocks of buffed TH/SS Termies?

Should I bring Ezekiel and try to cast Fight-Last, etc?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/03 16:16:59


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


With this player relying on Warp Timing Morty (one last time thanks to the new FAQ) I wonder if its worth the CP to have a Talonmaster with Heavenfall Blade use The Hunt pre-game, and then Turn 1, snipe out the Warp Time Sorcerer, and possibly try to Hit and Run away. If I get top of turn 1, its a 4cp investment, but likely slows his whoe list waaaaaay down.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/10 04:22:19


Post by: ZergSmasher


Another DA list made a top four and thus was featured in a Goonhammer article, and this one actually took a decent sized Greenwing detachment alongside Azrael and the Deathwing.

Here's the link

I never would have thought this list was good; shows what I know, eh? Apparently Greenwing are plenty viable and it's not just about Ravenwing and Deathwing. The guy even had an honest-to-God Tactical Squad in there. And apparently there's something to bringing along a Land Speeder Storm or two.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/10 14:53:35


Post by: bullyboy


 ZergSmasher wrote:

My takeaways:

-Invader ATVs are pretty solid. I imagine they are even better in our lists thanks to Jink. More durable than Attack Bikes if not as efficient points-wise. Lack of CORE does hurt though, as my opponent lamented.
-Transhuman Physiology for the win! My Suppressors tanked a bunch of melta shots from the ATVs due to this stratagem (and some unlucky dice from my opponent). Having it always on for Deathwing is amazing as well.
-


One bonus for a squadron of ATVs is that they can also benefit from Transhuman unlike Attack Bikes. Granted, it's only worth it if your opponent is going to throw a lot of S6+ shots into them, but combined with Ravenwing invuln, it makes them a little more dangerous.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/12 00:55:36


Post by: ZergSmasher


Invaders might have gotten slightly better, not in and of themselves, but by their main competition (Attack Bikes) getting a price bump. They probably still don't get there, but Attack Bikes are not as much cheaper now, although they do have CORE and can be revived by an Apothecary (ATVs cannot due to a FAQ, as we all know).

Maybe it's better to spread Attack Bikes out and put them in regular Bike Squads. Dilutes their firepower, but makes it harder to just swat all of them in one fell swoop. That's something you can't do with Invaders.

Another thing that might be relevant in the current meta is the fact that a Dark Lance or Cognis Lascannon shot will straight up delete an Attack Bike if the bike fails its save. This is not true of an Invader ATV, which takes two such shots to kill. Invaders might be more susceptible to stuff like the big scary Skitarii Vanguard blob using Enriched Rounds, though even there having more wounds to chew through helps them not die as fast, and while an Apothecary can't revive an ATV, he can restore some lost wounds and keep them around longer.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/12 03:49:20


Post by: yukishiro1


I don't play DA, but I'd be more tempted by speeders with MMs than by Invader ATVs. 15 less points, far better mobility, 2 less wounds but one more toughness, can shoot in combat due to being a vehicle. The big thing you lose is the bolter shots, but I really don't think that's a big deal. Also means you don't give up more thin the ranks points, again since it's a vehicle. And you'd have to take a lot to make bring it down not a trap choice for your opponent.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/16 02:09:52


Post by: Vulshra


Running the numbers, it seems like bike squads are some of the most efficient anti infantry in the codex. Am I reading this wrong?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/16 03:24:31


Post by: bullyboy


yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't play DA, but I'd be more tempted by speeders with MMs than by Invader ATVs. 15 less points, far better mobility, 2 less wounds but one more toughness, can shoot in combat due to being a vehicle. The big thing you lose is the bolter shots, but I really don't think that's a big deal. Also means you don't give up more thin the ranks points, again since it's a vehicle. And you'd have to take a lot to make bring it down not a trap choice for your opponent.


yes, I think the ATV is paying a lot for the "bike" keyword, which took the big nerf when the apothecary couldn't heal it anymore. This was the right move, but the points should now be adjusted accordingly.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/17 02:14:37


Post by: ZergSmasher


Dark Angels take 3rd place (and 5th) at the Atlantic City Open:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-drukhari-endgame/?fbclid=IwAR2ZsqOTej9PEVUIANEzYnYKgHgfH9-67fMmlqz_umYkUyZcYBP1kUpOriU

All the usual suspects in the 3rd place list, plus Land Speeder Vengeances. Maybe I need another one of those. I don't have BCP, so I couldn't see the 5th place list, but from the description it seemed to be a mostly Greenwing list, which is unusual in such high level play. Very good showing for Dark Angels though, to get two lists in the top 8.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/24 23:50:59


Post by: Amaurosis


Hello,

I am asking on behalf of a friend, who is playing Dark Angels.

He is confused about some rule in the DA supplement:
It seems there is a section, which says that all units from the original Space Marine codex, that have the Deathwing category gain the Inner circle as well, when played as a Dark Angel.

To some part this is confirmed by Battlescribe as the Captain in Terminator having the Deathwing category gets that Inner Circle ability.

Not so the normal captain, though. Although having the Deathwing category he seems to have to "buy" that Inner circle ability via Rites if Initiation; making him cost even 5 points more than the Termi Captain??

And the librarian having Deathwing, too, seems no way of getting Inner circle at all, although bearing the deathwing category.

He is totally confused and does not know to what make out of this rule. I have to add that he has the German rulebooks.

Can somebody help?
Thank you!

Cheers Amaurosis


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/25 02:37:34


Post by: ZergSmasher


Amaurosis wrote:
Hello,

I am asking on behalf of a friend, who is playing Dark Angels.

He is confused about some rule in the DA supplement:
It seems there is a section, which says that all units from the original Space Marine codex, that have the Deathwing category gain the Inner circle as well, when played as a Dark Angel.

To some part this is confirmed by Battlescribe as the Captain in Terminator having the Deathwing category gets that Inner Circle ability.

Not so the normal captain, though. Although having the Deathwing category he seems to have to "buy" that Inner circle ability via Rites if Initiation; making him cost even 5 points more than the Termi Captain??

And the librarian having Deathwing, too, seems no way of getting Inner circle at all, although bearing the deathwing category.

He is totally confused and does not know to what make out of this rule. I have to add that he has the German rulebooks.

Can somebody help?
Thank you!

Cheers Amaurosis

This is correct. Normal Captains do not have the Deathwing/Inner Circle rule and must pay extra points via Rites of Initiation. The Terminator Captain has the Deathwing keyword and thus automatically has the Inner Circle rule. As do all of the named characters. Librarians have Deathwing and therefore get Inner Circle as long as they are in a pure Dark Angels list (as in actual Dark Angels, not a Successor chapter).

Basically, anything with the <DEATHWING> or <INNER CIRCLE> keyword gets the Inner Circle rule as described by the codex supplement.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/06/25 03:15:48


Post by: Vulshra


You do have to pay for a non terminator captain to have inner circle. The terminators get it automatically


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/07/14 19:26:02


Post by: ZergSmasher


Dark Angels take second place at the Show Me Showdown in Kansas City, Missouri (about a 2-hour drive from where I live):

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-skitarii-super-sunday/

Apparently the Azrael/Hellblasters combo of yesteryear is not dead after all and seems to be pretty effective vs. the boogeyman of the month, Lucius Skitarii. MSU Bikers and Bladeguard are also very much a thing, and not an Attack Bike in sight. What I really like is the giant blob of Relic Terminators and the Bladeguard Ancient with the relic banner taking the Rites of War trait to make them ObSec. That's a pretty good combo, making already tough Terminators able to contest objectives against cheaper troops. Other than the Relic guys and a unit of Bladeguard I could actually run this exact list as long as nobody had a problem with using normal Hellblasters as the assault ones. Maybe balanced lists like this are the way forward for DA.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/07/22 06:41:43


Post by: ZergSmasher


Another week, another Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article featuring top tournament lists. This time around Dark Angels take three top-four spots (including one win!):

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-machine-superiority/

Even in the midst of broken AdMech's reign of terror, Dark Angels are holding their own. And each of the featured DA lists is very different from the others, so it's not like we're shoehorned into building a certain way. That is a great thing for us.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/07/26 22:49:39


Post by: leerm02


Hey folks, quick question here:

With the DA chapter-tactics, do DA get to shoot flamers in engagement range? I was watching a game the other day and flamers kept coming up as quite good in one army's list... which made me think about the chapter tactic... which made me think: "No way! That would be insane!!"

So, can DA run, for example, a squad of Company vets with flamers in one hand and a storm shield in the other? Being able to move, advance, fire, and then later when they get into melee KEEP FIRING those dang flamers?

Cause if so: wow.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/07/27 01:55:04


Post by: Sobie


leerm02 wrote:
Hey folks, quick question here:

With the DA chapter-tactics, do DA get to shoot flamers in engagement range? I was watching a game the other day and flamers kept coming up as quite good in one army's list... which made me think about the chapter tactic... which made me think: "No way! That would be insane!!"

So, can DA run, for example, a squad of Company vets with flamers in one hand and a storm shield in the other? Being able to move, advance, fire, and then later when they get into melee KEEP FIRING those dang flamers?

Cause if so: wow.


Dark Angels super doctrine during tactical doctrine allows non-DW infantry with rapid fire/assault to shoot in combat as if they have have BS5+, yes. So I guess something like the situation you described could take place in the right circumstance. You would need to devote resources to keeping them in tactical doctrine in the later rounds. Either CP or a Warlord with Brilliant Strategist to babysit them.

I think it would be more interesting with flame aggressors than company vets with flamers but all in all probably not a tactic that's broadly useful.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/07/28 06:08:42


Post by: ZergSmasher


leerm02 wrote:
Hey folks, quick question here:

With the DA chapter-tactics, do DA get to shoot flamers in engagement range? I was watching a game the other day and flamers kept coming up as quite good in one army's list... which made me think about the chapter tactic... which made me think: "No way! That would be insane!!"

So, can DA run, for example, a squad of Company vets with flamers in one hand and a storm shield in the other? Being able to move, advance, fire, and then later when they get into melee KEEP FIRING those dang flamers?

Cause if so: wow.

Sure, you could do that. The question is, why would you want to commit the resources to that little trick instead of something a lot more useful? It's not as powerful as it sounds, even with the flamers getting AP-1 in Tactical doctrine.

I have been thinking about Company Veterans, though. Namely the idea of putting Meltaguns/Combis and Storm Shields on them and sticking them in a drop pod to use as a deep strike anti-tank threat. Devastators with Multimeltas are probably just better though for the drop role, although they can't get invul saves unless you put Azrael in the pod with them (which would be a colossal waste of Azrael, obviously!). Yes, technically you could just drop them inside Azzy's shield bubble but then you are limited as to where you can drop. The Veterans, on the other hand, don't need a character to babysit them and are non-trivial to kill (2+/4++ with 2 wounds each takes a decent amount of firepower to remove). If they get killed, that's less guns shooting at the rest of your army. For bonus points, drop the pod on an objective and force your opponent to either waste guns on it or move one of their ObSec units over to that objective, potentially keeping them from being used elsewhere.

But again, it's probably a gimmick and I suspect there are far better uses of your points than suicide melta veterans, not to mention better sources of anti-tank (such as Eradicators and Attack Bikes).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/07/31 16:30:18


Post by: bullyboy


So anybody looking at alternative builds with the new metas developing? Looking ahead t next spring and wanting to run DAs at a few events.

Currently have a RW/DW combination, but only have 2 MM Attack Bikes at the moment (and tough to find more). I'm also not 100% I want to add more as I doubt they will be so useful later. I do have ATVs an can easily add more. Granted, they are more expensive, cannot get rerolls or healed (although this would allow me to drop Sammael as a buffing character) and 2 of them have decent resiliency with transhuman and invulns.

What I'm building around currently (but see many shortfalls)...

Vanguard
Ezekiel
5 DW knights, watcher
10 DW terms, TH/SS sgt, 2 cyclones, 2 TH/SS (combat squad 2 cyclones and 2 TH/SS to sit on my objective for Stubborn Defiance)
DW ancient with relic

Outrider
Sammy
Talon Master, arbiter's gaze, Brilliant Strategist
Rw chief apothecary
LS vengeance
3 bikes (1 melta), Attack Bike MM
3 bikes (1 melta), Attack Bike MM

Sitting on 190pts left. Debating dropping the Outrider and going for patrol to add some Incursors for early board control/block first turn chargers. This opens up a lot of tactical options since I wouldn't be limited to Ravenwing.
I know my above list needs more AT, which is easy to do with 190pts still left (hunt down 2-3 more Attack Bikes, LS vengeance etc) but I need to also think about the increase in hordes in the meta. A second Talon Master might be decent instead of sammael since twin assault cannon is great for new orks and T3 blobs.

Just curious as to what people are leaning towards these days


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/01 02:55:36


Post by: ZergSmasher


On the topic of Attack Bikes, yeah they are scarce to find. Fortunately I managed to snag an STL file for a decent-looking one (complete with a Ravenwing tail fin) so I can 3d print a few as needed. You might be able to go that route as well, either printing them yourself if you have a 3d printer or getting someone else to do it for you.

As for your list, overall I like it. I think you don't want to put the CMLs on the home objective though, as usually you want to be out of LOS for Stubborn Defiance and that means the launchers won't have anything to shoot at most of the time. On a board where you can't hide, it's not a terrible plan though. With 190 points left, one thing you could do is add some more meltas to the bike units (melta + combi on sarge) and then stick in a unit of Outriders or a 5-man regular bike squad (comes to 2k on the nose). Gives you more mobile board control options. Or you could add a second LSV and have 70 more points to throw around, maybe add another bike to each of the existing units and a LC on each sergeant. The second Talonmaster option would not be a terrible choice either.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/01 20:06:47


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


@Bullyboy,

Since we got back to in-store gaming I've been at 1500 points in preparation for a local tourney next week (20 players). I have found things are tougher than they were in March! I took a list that crunched things in Feb/March and it has fallen behind (or maybe I am just rusty). My all Deathwing force lost to Drukhari but did a lot of damage along the way. Board control was a major issue. A Deathwing/Greenwing force was roughly handled by new Orks yesterday. The damage reduction banner can't be on everybody and the rockets on the Deffcoptas are nasty.

I considered a list similar to yours, but at 1500 points its tough to make a viable DW/RW combo. The Strike Force missions at 1500 points make it tough on elite forces as there are several Hold 2/Hold 3/Hold More scenarios that make it tough with a low-unit count. Less of a problem at 2000 points, but it is still something to consider. I would explore your thought to have a Greenwing Patrol to support the Deathwing. My attempt with Inceptors and Tactical Squads did not work out so well. I am looking at a mix of Attack Bikes with Multi-Melta and maybe even some traditional long-range fire support options (maybe even Hellblasters) along with Infiltrators and Intercessors.

You are right that twin-assault cannons (and even normal assault cannons) are good weapons against Ork Boys now.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/02 02:12:46


Post by: bullyboy


I'll probably run some all Ravenwing lists for fun in the future, but I think I'm going to drop the Outrider in my combo list. Having obsec bikes isn't enough to limit the options IMHO.
I'm starting to look at other units in the codex to see what they can do for me, even little things like a 5 man assault sqd with 2 flamers for 110pts as a reserve to take on small objective scoring units, possibly a whirlwind for indirect fire onto scoring units, etc.

have a friend who is a keen Ork player, so will get to face him soon (he also has Drukhari). Just don't know anyone who plays Admech.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/03 06:12:36


Post by: Brothererekose


Okay, now time for the counter:
What does DW fear?
What makes Ravenwing feathers fall out?
Mixed Dark Angels?

srsly. Deathwing was my first army (year 2004), but now I'm getting whooped by Mixed DW, RW and beefed up dreads. Thoughts?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/05 14:22:13


Post by: zammerak


Ok friends,
Our local club is starting up a crusade and starting at 25PL I figured this would be a great time to finally learn how to play my DA army that I purchased and have been painting.
I normally play orks and I know DA play very differently.. but where do I even start? there are way too many units to choose from in the SM codex haha.
I think I have somewhere around 2-4k points in DA so I should be able to field nearly any unit.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/07 23:51:53


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 zammerak wrote:
Ok friends,
Our local club is starting up a crusade and starting at 25PL I figured this would be a great time to finally learn how to play my DA army that I purchased and have been painting.
I normally play orks and I know DA play very differently.. but where do I even start? there are way too many units to choose from in the SM codex haha.
I think I have somewhere around 2-4k points in DA so I should be able to field nearly any unit.


I have only done one Crusade, and I was in deep cover as a Necron...The things we do to hunt the fallen. I have done escalation tourneys where you play 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000 point games where your lists in later games have to include the units from former games. So its a balance between having a workable force at 500 points and a killer force at 2000?

Unless you know absolutely which "Wing" you prefer, I might start with a Primaris Capt, two Intercessor Squads (crowd control), a Bladeguard Squad (melee) and two Attack Bikes (anti-tank/anti-monster). Lets you play with the different element of the Dark Angels with the ability to grow in any direction.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/08 01:23:50


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Took an all-Ravenwing list to an 18 player, 3 round, 1500 point tourney today. The intent was to have thematic lists led by named characters – a Great Crusade! After much deliberation but not many warm up games (two with Deathwing lists that didn’t really gel) I went with: Sammael, two Talonmasters, a Ravenwing Champion with the Reliquary of Repentance, a Ravenwing Chief Apothecary, a squadron of five Black Knights, three bare-bones Ravenwing Bike Squads, an Attack Bike Squadron with three Multi-Melta bikes and a Landspeeder Vengeance.

Game 1 Surround and Destroy vs Ultramarines. He had Tigurius, a Lieutenant, a Chief Apothecary, three Intercessor Squads, a Suppressor Squad, an Inceptor Squad, a Redemptor, an Eradicator Squad and a Callidus Assassin. I took Death on the Wind, Engage on All Fronts and a special Secondary that the TO had in effect that gave Warlords VPs for doing things - 5 for inflicting 10 wounds on infantry, 5 for inflicting 10 wounds on vehicles and monsters and being within 6” of the centre at the end of the game.
I got first turn, and absolutely hammered the centre of his force. The Eradicators were wiped and Bladeguard were down to one man. His return fire killed my Vengeance, but by the end of Turn 2 I had killed his Characters, Bladeguard, Suppressors and Redemptor. The Attack Bikes did a lot of the heavy lifting. He was tabled by Turn 4 and I had 83 points out of 90 (we don’t give the 10 for painted). As Ravenwing I will take a firefight against other Marines.

Game 2 Vital Intelligence vs Ravenguard. He had Shrike, a Smash Captain, two VV Squads with Lighting Claws, a Redemptor, Inceptors, Eradicators, two Intercessors and two Incursors. I took Death on the Wind, Engage on all Fronts and the special Secondary. I was a little casual with my deployment and was faced with a Turn 1 charge by the Smash Captain and one of the VV Squads. While his Smash Captain mauled my Black Knights, an Interrupt and Swift Strike extracted the survivors and left his vanguard exposed. Bike Squadrons messed with the flanks, contesting objectives and tying him down.

The Champion moved within 3” and the rest of my force let fly, wiping the VVs and Smash Captain. The Vengeance crippled the Redemptor. He deep struck the Eradicators and tried to kill my Attack Bikes, but Jink saved their bacon – only one died. In response the second VV squad was wiped by the Attack Bikes (helped by the invul debuff) and the Eradicators fell to a combination of assault cannon and Sammael’s sword. He was tabled by my Turn 4. I forget the exact score, but it was in the high 70s.

Game 3 Battle Lines vs Necrons.He had two bricks of twenty Warriors, a big unit of Scarabs, a Canoptek Spider, a big squad of Destroyers, an Annihilation Barge, a Chronomancer and the Illuminator dude. I took Death on the Wind, Engage on All Fronts and the mission secondary. A mid-range firefight against Necrons can be frustrating and he had two good melee units. He had first turn and seemed to be hanging back. I tried to hammer one flank. While I wiped the Scarabs and killed one Destroyer with the Vengeance his Warriors were almost unscathed. The next two turns saw a grinding battle where bikers fell to massed Guass fire while I killed his scary melee with Multi-Melta. We timed out at Turn 4 – I had something in the neighbourhood of 60 points to his 40 and another battle round would have been great.

There was a fourth “Boss Battle round” to settle things where Sammael was taken down by Celestine (we started 4 inches apart and she got first turn). Mortal Wounds made a big difference. Sisters came first, Death Guard 2nd and me third. There was a good mix of Necrons, Marines and even Tau. There was only one Drukhari and no Ad Mech.

The list performed well. I was worried about the small squads and character protection, but things held together. Mobility was the key along with a plan for CP usage. The Talonmasters are not quite the terror they were at the sunset of 8th and dawn of 9th, but their flexible firepower is still great. We have several ways out of melee, and knowing which to use and when can be critical. The Attack Bikes were the consistent stars – no surprise. They were the recipient of almost every Chapter Master buff and a Talonmaster was usually with them. The Ravenwing Champion was really useful – the invul debuff was clutch. The Ravenwing Apothecary was also worth it - bringing back Attack Bikes is always nice. The Black Knights were a little lack-lustre, but they also took a lot of my opponents’ attention. The Vengeance was swingy, but when he shone he shone. Two more Attack Bikes, though, might be a better investment?

Death on the Wind was maxed out each time, while Engage on All Fronts did well. I think that Ravenwing work well with another element, but at 1500 points it gets hard to split things and there was also the theme to think of. I was lucky, though, not to face the other two Necron lists that had C'tan since I lacked a Psyker!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/09 23:59:20


Post by: Vulshra


What would you recommend mixing them with? From your report it doesn't sound like you felt like you were missing anything except a librarian, but if advancing to 2k how would you build out? I've been leaning towards mono rw but with you saying black knights were underwhelming, maybe a deathwing contingent lead by a Libby?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/10 00:41:52


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Vulshra wrote:
What would you recommend mixing them with? From your report it doesn't sound like you felt like you were missing anything except a librarian, but if advancing to 2k how would you build out? I've been leaning towards mono rw but with you saying black knights were underwhelming, maybe a deathwing contingent lead by a Libby?


I was actually trying to make that work at 1500, but I felt it was spread too thin. I think it would work well at 2000 points! A Terminator Librarian, Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Terminators and the Ravenwing Apothecary shifted from the Ravenwing Detachment would be close to fitting points-wise with my last list. The Terminator Librarian could drop in where needed, while Deathwing Knights give a hard-hitting melee force that can stick around the middle of the board and doesn't need much character supervision. The Deathwing Squad would be utility - hold an area.

I am also looking at a Terminator Librarian-led Greenwing Patrol Detachment with some Infiltrators, Intercessors and Plasma Inceptors. Doesn't help with melee, but does give some board control and another firepower hammer.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/10 16:11:59


Post by: Vulshra


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Vulshra wrote:
What would you recommend mixing them with? From your report it doesn't sound like you felt like you were missing anything except a librarian, but if advancing to 2k how would you build out? I've been leaning towards mono rw but with you saying black knights were underwhelming, maybe a deathwing contingent lead by a Libby?


I was actually trying to make that work at 1500, but I felt it was spread too thin. I think it would work well at 2000 points! A Terminator Librarian, Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Terminators and the Ravenwing Apothecary shifted from the Ravenwing Detachment would be close to fitting points-wise with my last list. The Terminator Librarian could drop in where needed, while Deathwing Knights give a hard-hitting melee force that can stick around the middle of the board and doesn't need much character supervision. The Deathwing Squad would be utility - hold an area.

I am also looking at a Terminator Librarian-led Greenwing Patrol Detachment with some Infiltrators, Intercessors and Plasma Inceptors. Doesn't help with melee, but does give some board control and another firepower hammer.


Rather than plasma inceptors, why not plasma guns and combi plasma on bikers? That way it's obsec and doesn't require extra units. Personally I am a fan of running 2 max bikes squads with 2 plasmas and a combi plasma + mm ab plus a squad of rw bk, combat squad the max bikes to a plasma squad and a chainswords squad, that way you have threat saturation on plasma


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/10 22:45:24


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Vulshra wrote:
Spoiler:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Vulshra wrote:
What would you recommend mixing them with? From your report it doesn't sound like you felt like you were missing anything except a librarian, but if advancing to 2k how would you build out? I've been leaning towards mono rw but with you saying black knights were underwhelming, maybe a deathwing contingent lead by a Libby?


I was actually trying to make that work at 1500, but I felt it was spread too thin. I think it would work well at 2000 points! A Terminator Librarian, Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Terminators and the Ravenwing Apothecary shifted from the Ravenwing Detachment would be close to fitting points-wise with my last list. The Terminator Librarian could drop in where needed, while Deathwing Knights give a hard-hitting melee force that can stick around the middle of the board and doesn't need much character supervision. The Deathwing Squad would be utility - hold an area.

I am also looking at a Terminator Librarian-led Greenwing Patrol Detachment with some Infiltrators, Intercessors and Plasma Inceptors. Doesn't help with melee, but does give some board control and another firepower hammer.


Rather than plasma inceptors, why not plasma guns and combi plasma on bikers? That way it's obsec and doesn't require extra units. Personally I am a fan of running 2 max bikes squads with 2 plasmas and a combi plasma + mm ab plus a squad of rw bk, combat squad the max bikes to a plasma squad and a chainswords squad, that way you have threat saturation on plasma


I find the Blast profile of the Plasma Inceptors can be devastating when the opponent has things in squads over 5 models - they can really clear out tough, well protected infantry. I had Black Knights in my pure Ravenwing army this past weekend, but at 2000 points I would consider adding a Greenwing or an Aux detachment. Still, I find I need my CPs so my Black Knights will still see the table. Black Knights were my main dudes in 8th, but now they are more general purpose/character protection.

I was running my Ravenwing Bike Squadrons with four bikes and an Attack Bike, usually with two Plasma guns. They were able to chuck out the firepower. These days, though, I have been running minimum bare-bones Squadrons that focus on staying alive to secure objectives and be in table quarters for Engage on All Fronts. The shooting is left to the Black Knights, Talonmasters and Attack Bike Squadrons and that is where I invest my points. Chainswords instead of bolt pistols, though, is a solid move. Taking a full strength Ravenwing Squadron with all the trimings does give you some good options - I just find I run out of points before I run out of Fast Attack Slots!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/11 15:25:00


Post by: Vulshra


The benefit of max squads is that when you break them up you get the flexibility min squads when you want them but aren't committed to them. I find two big squads and one small is a good mix


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/11 22:11:42


Post by: C4790M


Obviously a suboptimal list, but if you wanted to bring an entirely landspeeder list. What you you bring? Obviously 3 talon masters, but do you bring as many hulls as possible, do you spread them into individual units or take them as one blob? Is a darkshroud worth it at that point?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/12 01:54:11


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


C4790M wrote:
Obviously a suboptimal list, but if you wanted to bring an entirely landspeeder list. What you you bring? Obviously 3 talon masters, but do you bring as many hulls as possible, do you spread them into individual units or take them as one blob? Is a darkshroud worth it at that point?


I've never tried it. Running an Outrider you have six Fast Attack slots, so I guess you would look at taking units of more than one Landspeeder if you were concerned about running out of slots and you really treasure your CPs. A unit of three Landspeeders with MultiMeltas would certainly take down big scary things, but so would three individual such speeders and enemy shooting would have to be more calculated. More units means that you can be in more places for Primaries and some Secondaries.

I might try it at 1000 points for laughs! It will struggle, but it will struggle with class.

I am not as sold on the Darkshroud in 9th as I was in 8th. I am now spending the points and slot on a Vengeance or something else.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/12 22:15:15


Post by: C4790M


I feel like you’d have to run a minimum of 2 outriders so you can have 3 talonmasters - they’re by far the best landspeeder unit and the only way you’d get the weight of dice to take out hordes (AT is covered by almost every model having a multimelta). I’m playing a 1500pt game tomorrow, I’ll adjust my ideas based on how it plays (3 talons, 2 tornadoes with AC/MM, 3 typhoons with MM, 1 each of a vengeance, hammer strike and thunder strike)


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/12 22:55:41


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I think you could run three Talonmasters in a single Outrider Detachment. They are Lieutenants, so you can take two in a single HQ Force Org slot. So you take one as your Warlord. You then take another Talonmaster as your second "free slot" Lieutenant according to Company Heroes. You then take a 3rd Talonmaster as your 2nd HQ slot.

Did I get that right? Edit - Obviously not!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/13 00:54:27


Post by: ZergSmasher


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I think you could run three Talonmasters in a single Outrider Detachment. They are Lieutenants, so you can take two in a single HQ Force Org slot. So you take one as your Warlord. You then take another Talonmaster as your second "free slot" Lieutenant according to Company Heroes. You then take a 3rd Talonmaster as your 2nd HQ slot.

Did I get that right?

Pretty sure you're limited to one Captain and two Lieutenants per detachment, regardless of slots. I don't have my book in front of me right now though, so I could easily be wrong.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/13 02:45:29


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I think you could run three Talonmasters in a single Outrider Detachment. They are Lieutenants, so you can take two in a single HQ Force Org slot. So you take one as your Warlord. You then take another Talonmaster as your second "free slot" Lieutenant according to Company Heroes. You then take a 3rd Talonmaster as your 2nd HQ slot.

Did I get that right?

Pretty sure you're limited to one Captain and two Lieutenants per detachment, regardless of slots. I don't have my book in front of me right now though, so I could easily be wrong.


You are indeed correct Sir! The Company Command rule...So two detachments it would have to be.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/13 22:59:14


Post by: C4790M


Tried a 1500 landspeeder only game vs necrons (60 warriors, a command barge, some skopekhs with Lord, and a tri arch stalker)

Had them down to 1 squad of warriors and a chronomancer by the bottom of turn 3 and they conceded

Was a very weird but cool style of play - basically had to play incredibly cagey, picking fights and avoiding getting bogged down in combat. If you have the models, would recommend trying it at least once


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/14 00:06:26


Post by: Vulshra


C4790M wrote:
Tried a 1500 landspeeder only game vs necrons (60 warriors, a command barge, some skopekhs with Lord, and a tri arch stalker)

Had them down to 1 squad of warriors and a chronomancer by the bottom of turn 3 and they conceded

Was a very weird but cool style of play - basically had to play incredibly cagey, picking fights and avoiding getting bogged down in combat. If you have the models, would recommend trying it at least once


To be fair, I think every ravenwing force should be cagey. We're faster than nearly everyone, and we should use it


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/19 18:55:47


Post by: leerm02



So...

Ravenwing: Black Knights or Outriders? Which works better? Use both in a force? Thoughts?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/19 22:14:25


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


leerm02 wrote:

So...

Ravenwing: Black Knights or Outriders? Which works better? Use both in a force? Thoughts?


What are you trying to achieve with them? The Outriders are good at clearing out chaff with their Twin Bolt Guns and large number of D1 attacks on the charge. The Black Knights hit harder against vehicles/power armour targets with their plasma talons and their D2 Corvus hammers can make a difference against armoured targets in melee. In a Ravenwing Outrider Detachment the Outriders are a Fast Attack Slot and have Obsec. The Black Knights are an Elite slot but let you take Ravenwing Apothecary, Ancient and Champion as free slots, but most people just take the Apothecary so its a bit of a wash.

I have been consistently taking Black Knights for their Plasma Talons while my Outriders having been sitting on the shelf. I am not giving up on them.

Another debate is between Outriders and Ravenwing Bike Squadrons. I really like standard Bike Squadons these days - more flexible.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/20 05:50:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


leerm02 wrote:

So...

Ravenwing: Black Knights or Outriders? Which works better? Use both in a force? Thoughts?

Apples and oranges, they don't really have the same role in a list. As T2B said above, Black Knights are much better vs. harder targets, but Outriders gain ObSec in a Ravenwing Outrider detachment. So it's really more of a question of what your list needs.

As for Outriders vs. regular bikes, I definitely lean towards regular bikes myself, especially now that Outriders are 50 ppm and there are more weapons that are really optimized to kill 4-wound models (Dark Lances, Cognis Lascannons, Entropy Cannons, etc.). Outriders are definitely not total garbage though and still hit harder than normal bikes in melee (3 Outriders = 19 attacks on the charge, 5 normal bikes with chainswords = 16 attacks on the charge, both cost 150 points).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/22 02:14:31


Post by: Vulshra


What do you all think of the Damocles Command Rhino as the HQ for a patrol supplementing a ravenwing or deathwing specialist detachment? the patrol would principally be to fill in holes in the primary detachment (i.e., mobility for deathwing, backfield support for ravenwing), and I was thinking the CP regen may be useful, along with the additional aura projection


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/24 00:23:26


Post by: ZergSmasher


Vulshra wrote:
What do you all think of the Damocles Command Rhino as the HQ for a patrol supplementing a ravenwing or deathwing specialist detachment? the patrol would principally be to fill in holes in the primary detachment (i.e., mobility for deathwing, backfield support for ravenwing), and I was thinking the CP regen may be useful, along with the additional aura projection

I was under the impression that it had been moved to Legends, but I could very easily be mistaken about that.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/24 05:21:12


Post by: bullyboy


What are people's thoughts on Bike Captains? I'm trying to cut back on my characters so that I can put more meat in the lists, therefore a single Talonmaster, chief RW apothecary and a Capt on bike instead of Sammael. Also dropped my terminator ancient. So, keep the bike captain cheap with calibanite knight and teeth of terra?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/24 05:29:38


Post by: ZergSmasher


 bullyboy wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Bike Captains? I'm trying to cut back on my characters so that I can put more meat in the lists, therefore a single Talonmaster, chief RW apothecary and a Capt on bike instead of Sammael. Also dropped my terminator ancient. So, keep the bike captain cheap with calibanite knight and teeth of terra?

I've seen RW lists with a barebones Bike Captain with the Reliquary of the Repentant. Definitely saves points over taking Sammael, although in most cases Sammael is very good to have.

Also, I actually wanted to share a trick I saw recently when I faced a Dark Angels list. He had taken a Master-crafted weapon on his Deathwing Knight Master, making that flail damage 3. This could be really good with the new Orks starting to be seen, as the damage spillover makes it brutal vs. hordes. D3 is also just plain nice to have in general.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/24 09:51:33


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 bullyboy wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Bike Captains? I'm trying to cut back on my characters so that I can put more meat in the lists, therefore a single Talonmaster, chief RW apothecary and a Capt on bike instead of Sammael. Also dropped my terminator ancient. So, keep the bike captain cheap with calibanite knight and teeth of terra?


Our next events is at 1000 points, and I have been looking at a Captain on a Bike just like yours! I do think I will miss Sammael’s Chapter Master. Being able to send a Squadron off with rerolls is nice. Still saves 50 odd points, though, so I will see how he does.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/25 03:34:16


Post by: bullyboy


So I really want to have the conversation about Invader ATVs vs Attack Bikes.
I currently have 2 Attack Bikes (inside bike squads for additional wounds) and 3 ATVs. I'm considering dropping the ATVs and getting 3 more Attack Bikes (ugh, $102 more for my angels), but I'm not 100% convinced.

Attack Bikes
Pros: Cheaper by 25pts per (frees up 75pts in list), have Core so receive benefit of rerolls (from both Sammy/Capt and Talon Master), smaller footprint, can get resurrected by an Apothecary.
Cons: Lower wound count (opponent only has to get through 12 wounds to kill the squad, and the D3+3 is the perfect weapon to do it)

Invader ATVs
Pros: 6 extra bolter shots, can be a target for Transhuman for 1CP for unit of 3, can still be healed by apothecary, 24 wounds for the squad, 6 extra melee attacks.

Both can be target of Skilled Riders if advanced (dev doctrine obviously), and also hit and run if in melee.

With that being said, not having Core for the ATVs does somewhat remove the chains. Knowing they don't benefit form rerolls allows you to send them off where you want without hugging characters. 24 wounds and transhuman is no easy feat to get through and I'll still have my 2 bike squads with attached MM (plus black knights) to take advantage of rerolls.
Thoughts?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/25 07:20:56


Post by: ZergSmasher


I really want to stick up for Invader ATVs, but I suspect there's a reason they don't show up in any top 4 lists at big tournaments. That being said, they are probably not a bad choice in smaller, slightly less competitive, events. They certainly have certain things going for them that Attack Bikes don't (such as better durability for the points especially with access to THP), but the lack of CORE kills them in top tier play, where not being able to get rerolls is a deal breaker. Then again, AdMech players are still using the chicken walkers and they recently lost CORE, so maybe I'm full of crap. The ATVs are definitely better for Dark Angels than any other chapter thanks to a built-in 5++ save, so that's something at least.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/25 22:09:50


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


My Attack Bike Squadron does most of my heavy-lifting. It is true that Core means you are shackled to support characters, but you can choose to send your Attack Bikes off on their own if you really want. Sammael's Chapter Master is done in the Command Phase, though, and the Squadron then swans off with a Talonmaster in tow to kill something that really needs killed. The Ravenwing Apothecary bringing them back is also huge.

Have to admit, though, that I have not tried the ATVs...I did experience the liberating feeling of a Landspeeder not worrying about rerolls. I'd say if you have the ATVs take'em for a spin and see what happens!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/26 17:23:05


Post by: leerm02


Hey folks quick (2 part) question:

1) Would a [Legends] Land Raider Terminus Ultra be able to use our chapter tactic and, so long as it doesn't move, fire all 8 lascannon with effectively a 2+ to hit?

2) My group is very casual, and totally okay with using legends models... would I be "that guy" for bringing a Land Raider Terminus Ultra? ESPECIALLY because we almost exclusively play lower point (1500pt and under) games?




For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/08/26 22:41:44


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


leerm02 wrote:
Hey folks quick (2 part) question:

1) Would a [Legends] Land Raider Terminus Ultra be able to use our chapter tactic and, so long as it doesn't move, fire all 8 lascannon with effectively a 2+ to hit?

2) My group is very casual, and totally okay with using legends models... would I be "that guy" for bringing a Land Raider Terminus Ultra? ESPECIALLY because we almost exclusively play lower point (1500pt and under) games?




I have never met a Land Raider Terminus Ultra, but if it has the Dark Angels keyword (has the ability to have that <keyword&gt then it will be able to use the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic.

As for your second question, that is best answered by your gaming group. I don't think that normal Land Raiders are a sign of a hyper-competitive list. Unless this one in question has some amazing defensive buffs that normal ones do not have I can't see it being overpowered? You could take two Predator Annihilators with the same firepower (and chapter tactic) without making people blink. Having said that, if the reason you are asking about the Land Raider in question is that you think it will be super-powerful in your group then perhaps you have answered your own question? Still, ask them!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/01 05:23:31


Post by: bullyboy


Not much of a tactics comment but more of a gripe. I find it odd that GW has the Attack Bike be Core but not the ATV. They are both "Bikes" by rule and you think GW would want to sell the newer model instead of the ancient attack bike. With the apothecary nerf (needed) there really isn't a solid reason why the ATV should not be Core.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/02 20:24:03


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 bullyboy wrote:
Not much of a tactics comment but more of a gripe. I find it odd that GW has the Attack Bike be Core but not the ATV. They are both "Bikes" by rule and you think GW would want to sell the newer model instead of the ancient attack bike. With the apothecary nerf (needed) there really isn't a solid reason why the ATV should not be Core.


For me it certainly tips the scales towards the Attack Bikes. Core means that the Squadron can advance and shoot in Turn 1 with some assurance of Multi-Melta hits when operating under Sammael's Chapter Master ability. It is a bit of a head-scratcher why the ATVs didn't get Core.

I hope that the answer is not taking Core away from the Attack Bikes!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/05 04:18:26


Post by: Vulshra


I find ABs better not just because they are cheaper and have core, but can also be OBSEC in a bike squad, and can hide there with ablative wounds. Generally, I think the ability to combat squad and pack an obsec squad full of special weapons and an AB + ablative wounds from the additional biker + giving more targets for WWSWF is an excellent combo.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/13 22:06:19


Post by: leerm02


Hey fellow Dark Angels players!

So I was planning on putting a little money into developing my beloved broody-monk space-marines some more, and I wanted to get a few units whose primary job was basically: "Sit there and shoot until you die!" ...mostly to take advantage of the chapter tactic.

What would you say are your absolute TOP "sit and shoot" units for DA?

Off the cuff, I would place our whirlwinds as good contenders, but also the rapier carrier (75pts for four HB and bs 2+?!) and to a lesser extent dudes like Infiltrators that can pretty much be set up somewhere they want to control and not move until they are killed.

But I want to hear YOUR input, as chances are quite high that you have WORLDS more experience running DA than I do!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/14 01:54:02


Post by: ZergSmasher


leerm02 wrote:
Hey fellow Dark Angels players!

So I was planning on putting a little money into developing my beloved broody-monk space-marines some more, and I wanted to get a few units whose primary job was basically: "Sit there and shoot until you die!" ...mostly to take advantage of the chapter tactic.

What would you say are your absolute TOP "sit and shoot" units for DA?

Off the cuff, I would place our whirlwinds as good contenders, but also the rapier carrier (75pts for four HB and bs 2+?!) and to a lesser extent dudes like Infiltrators that can pretty much be set up somewhere they want to control and not move until they are killed.

But I want to hear YOUR input, as chances are quite high that you have WORLDS more experience running DA than I do!

Eliminators are not terrible for this. They aren't as good as they were in 8th but they can do work against character heavy lists. Otherwise, perhaps Devastators with either Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, or if you can get them a bit closer, Multi-meltas.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/16 07:20:25


Post by: Vulshra


leerm02 wrote:
Hey fellow Dark Angels players!

So I was planning on putting a little money into developing my beloved broody-monk space-marines some more, and I wanted to get a few units whose primary job was basically: "Sit there and shoot until you die!" ...mostly to take advantage of the chapter tactic.

What would you say are your absolute TOP "sit and shoot" units for DA?

Off the cuff, I would place our whirlwinds as good contenders, but also the rapier carrier (75pts for four HB and bs 2+?!) and to a lesser extent dudes like Infiltrators that can pretty much be set up somewhere they want to control and not move until they are killed.

But I want to hear YOUR input, as chances are quite high that you have WORLDS more experience running DA than I do!


Hellblasters. I know they are a mainstay, but bs 2+ WotDA rapid fire will melt just about anything


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/19 03:06:39


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Bike Captains? I'm trying to cut back on my characters so that I can put more meat in the lists, therefore a single Talonmaster, chief RW apothecary and a Capt on bike instead of Sammael. Also dropped my terminator ancient. So, keep the bike captain cheap with calibanite knight and teeth of terra?

I've seen RW lists with a barebones Bike Captain with the Reliquary of the Repentant. Definitely saves points over taking Sammael, although in most cases Sammael is very good to have.

Also, I actually wanted to share a trick I saw recently when I faced a Dark Angels list. He had taken a Master-crafted weapon on his Deathwing Knight Master, making that flail damage 3. This could be really good with the new Orks starting to be seen, as the damage spillover makes it brutal vs. hordes. D3 is also just plain nice to have in general.


Raises glass.

I am in the middle of a Teams tourney (1000 per player, teams of four, tag-team format where you play with a team mate) and I am playing Deathwing. Its hard to generalize from a wacky format like this (I have been paired with Necrons, Aeldari and Drukhari), but my Knight Master with the Relic Flail has been a wrecking ball on 2013 Miley Cyrus levels. Taking advantage of his flail, the Deathwing Knights blew through two 20-man Necron Warrior squads in one game (he killed twelve in one mighty swing) and a twenty-strong Slanesh Deamon Squad in another. The Squad also took down a Dawn Eagle Captain, a five-strong Custodes squad, a Keeper of Secrets and a Necron Overlord. The splash-damage from the Relic Flail is absolutely worth the 1CP.

So thanks!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/20 01:22:00


Post by: Vulshra


How killy are they? Do you think they'd be worth spashing into a mono RW list to get a CC punch, or is the tax for the rest of the formation not worth it in your opinion?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/20 01:59:36


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Vulshra wrote:
How killy are they? Do you think they'd be worth spashing into a mono RW list to get a CC punch, or is the tax for the rest of the formation not worth it in your opinion?


Deathwing Knights are amazingly killy (in melee of course). If you are going mono-Ravenwing at 2000 points you might be OK with a Deathwing Knights Auxiliary Detachment in terms of CP. Of course, if you are going that way a Librarian and Tactical Squad to make it a Patrol can complement the Ravenwing for the same CP cost. The Deathwing Knights don't need a babysitter in that they hit on a 2+ and their weapons do not have a -1. Their weakness is Mortal Wounds.

I just finished a five-round Teams tourney. The only game where they were wiped out for not much return was against Sisters where Blessed Bolts dished out 6 Mortal Wounds and a storm of Melta plus a Prayer that deals MWs finished the others (over two turns).

The last game featured my Deathwing (1000 points) teamed with Aeldari (don't tell anyone) against Thousand Sons and Ultramarines in Sweep and Clear. I pinned my ears back and sent my whole force (10 man Deathwing Squad and 5 man Deathwing Knights plus Ezekiel, Apothecary and a Command Squad) into the centre. The Thousand Sons were able to take away the Deathwing Knights invulnerable save, but Storm Shields and Terminator Armour don't miss their invul against (-2) and (-3) AP weapons. The Deathwing Knights took down half the Bladeguard while the 10 man squad took out the rest and a Redemptor while making 23 straight saving rolls of 3+ against pretty much a full range of weapons. The Deathwing Knights faced a Redemptor and three Bladeguard (surviving) attacks for the loss of three models.

I am finding that Psychic support is important for Deathwing. Righteous Repugnance and Mind Worm are my go-to Powers to make their melee even better.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/21 17:48:20


Post by: Vulshra


Honestly I'm wishing DW and RW could be combined in a pure detachment, like being able to include RW in a DW vanguard without obsec, or DW in a RW outrider without them gaining obsec without it breaking the detachment. Probably would be OP, but maybe a stratagem or something


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/21 20:58:45


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Vulshra wrote:
Honestly I'm wishing DW and RW could be combined in a pure detachment, like being able to include RW in a DW vanguard without obsec, or DW in a RW outrider without them gaining obsec without it breaking the detachment. Probably would be OP, but maybe a stratagem or something


You can put Sammel, a Talonmaster, a Ravenwing Champion, a Ravenwing Apothecary and Ravenwing Black Knights in a Deathwing/1st Company Vanguard detachment without breaking 1st Company, since they all have Inner Circle. So you could take Sammael, a Talonmaster, Ravenwing Apothecary, Ravenwing Black Knights (Elites choice) as part of a Vanguard Detachment with a couple of Deathwing Terminator Squads and still be 1st Company. The Deathwing Terminators would gain Obsec and you would get the Vanguard CPs refunded.

It can do some work!

The inverse does not work. While Black Knights are both Ravenwing and Inner Circle, Deathwing Terminators do not have Ravenwing so they "break" the 2nd Company ability.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/23 00:22:55


Post by: zammerak


Hey friends, I am playing with my raven wing (rw looked really fun, fast, flanky) anyway im looking over my units and wondering if I should take outriders or black knights. Both are 6pl but after doing the math hammer, black knights just seem to have more.. oomph. Sure they at not as great in melee (on the charge) and are one wound less, but the assault plasma, corvis hammers and inner circle, they seem to be the better buy. Did i miss something or are knights better?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/23 00:34:25


Post by: Vulshra


 zammerak wrote:
Hey friends, I am playing with my raven wing (rw looked really fun, fast, flanky) anyway im looking over my units and wondering if I should take outriders or black knights. Both are 6pl but after doing the math hammer, black knights just seem to have more.. oomph. Sure they at not as great in melee (on the charge) and are one wound less, but the assault plasma, corvis hammers and inner circle, they seem to be the better buy. Did i miss something or are knights better?


Inner circle doesn't apply to BK because they don't have the infantry keyword, and outriders gain obsec, otherwise you have it right. if going anti infantry do outriders, anti anything else BK


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/23 01:37:10


Post by: zammerak


Vulshra wrote:
 zammerak wrote:
Hey friends, I am playing with my raven wing (rw looked really fun, fast, flanky) anyway im looking over my units and wondering if I should take outriders or black knights. Both are 6pl but after doing the math hammer, black knights just seem to have more.. oomph. Sure they at not as great in melee (on the charge) and are one wound less, but the assault plasma, corvis hammers and inner circle, they seem to be the better buy. Did i miss something or are knights better?


So the real question then, do I take one squad of each, 6bk or 2x 3bk??
Inner circle doesn't apply to BK because they don't have the infantry keyword, and outriders gain obsec, otherwise you have it right. if going anti infantry do outriders, anti anything else BK


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/23 10:56:47


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


In the interests of clarity, Ravenwing Black Knights do have the Inner Circle keyword. They do not get to use the fourth (and most amazing) part of Inner Circle because you do indeed have to be Infantry to have unmodified rolls of 1-3 on a Wound roll fail against them. They also get to dodge out of the third aspect of Inner Circle due to also having Ravenwing.

So Inner Circle doesn't get them too much, but they do get to be in a 1st Company detachment and they cannot fail morale. Makes taking a large squadron viable - although with Blast I am doing so less in 9th.

In Black Knights vs Outriders I am tending towards Black Knights these days. A subtle difference between them is being Elites instead of Fast Attack. Can make a difference when building an Outrider detachment. If you are trying to cut corners for a small Outrider Detachment that has fast Obsec then Outriders are better (although normal Ravenwing Bike Squadrons win out vs Outriders in that case). If you have a bunch of Ravenwing Bike Squadrons already and are running out of slots then Black Knights take an Elites and also allow the RW Apothecary and Champion to be "Free" slots.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/23 13:30:58


Post by: zammerak


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
In the interests of clarity, Ravenwing Black Knights do have the Inner Circle keyword. They do not get to use the fourth (and most amazing) part of Inner Circle because you do indeed have to be Infantry to have unmodified rolls of 1-3 on a Wound roll fail against them. They also get to dodge out of the third aspect of Inner Circle due to also having Ravenwing.

So Inner Circle doesn't get them too much, but they do get to be in a 1st Company detachment and they cannot fail morale. Makes taking a large squadron viable - although with Blast I am doing so less in 9th.

In Black Knights vs Outriders I am tending towards Black Knights these days. A subtle difference between them is being Elites instead of Fast Attack. Can make a difference when building an Outrider detachment. If you are trying to cut corners for a small Outrider Detachment that has fast Obsec then Outriders are better (although normal Ravenwing Bike Squadrons win out vs Outriders in that case). If you have a bunch of Ravenwing Bike Squadrons already and are running out of slots then Black Knights take an Elites and also allow the RW Apothecary and Champion to be "Free" slots.



Right, that was where my head was at as well. I am not overly worried about blast as our current crusade is only 35PL soon going up to 50 so blast has not been an issue too bad so far. In my list I am currently running a squad of 5 firstborn bikers (2 with plasma). We all had to take a patrol detachment so sadly I don't have a ton of room for fast attack so that does make me lean to more BK to open up another FA slot. With that being said however I do not have a ton of Obsec if I cut the outriders as I run my intercessors in the back as a shooting platform.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/23 22:02:36


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 zammerak wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
In the interests of clarity, Ravenwing Black Knights do have the Inner Circle keyword. They do not get to use the fourth (and most amazing) part of Inner Circle because you do indeed have to be Infantry to have unmodified rolls of 1-3 on a Wound roll fail against them. They also get to dodge out of the third aspect of Inner Circle due to also having Ravenwing.

So Inner Circle doesn't get them too much, but they do get to be in a 1st Company detachment and they cannot fail morale. Makes taking a large squadron viable - although with Blast I am doing so less in 9th.

In Black Knights vs Outriders I am tending towards Black Knights these days. A subtle difference between them is being Elites instead of Fast Attack. Can make a difference when building an Outrider detachment. If you are trying to cut corners for a small Outrider Detachment that has fast Obsec then Outriders are better (although normal Ravenwing Bike Squadrons win out vs Outriders in that case). If you have a bunch of Ravenwing Bike Squadrons already and are running out of slots then Black Knights take an Elites and also allow the RW Apothecary and Champion to be "Free" slots.



Right, that was where my head was at as well. I am not overly worried about blast as our current crusade is only 35PL soon going up to 50 so blast has not been an issue too bad so far. In my list I am currently running a squad of 5 firstborn bikers (2 with plasma). We all had to take a patrol detachment so sadly I don't have a ton of room for fast attack so that does make me lean to more BK to open up another FA slot. With that being said however I do not have a ton of Obsec if I cut the outriders as I run my intercessors in the back as a shooting platform.


Outriders only gain Obsec in an all-Ravenwing Outrider Detachment. In a Patrol they do not get Obsec. Might make the decision easier!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/24 01:03:50


Post by: zammerak


true but I will house rule it as we were all forced into a patrol detachment by the crusade organizer for "balance" so its kinda a crappy thing to lose out on as I did not have a choice in my detachment despite wanting to do a raven wing list as its fluffy and fun. but if it is ruled, to bad so sad, then more knights it is!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/09/26 03:03:38


Post by: Vulshra


Looking at recent tournament winners, I'm thinking it may be useful to conceptualize different DA lists in terms of win condition? Ex) most RW lists win by killing and board control, whereas DW lists endure and need to tarpit critical enemies


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/10/08 13:03:04


Post by: IronBob


I am new to the Dark Angels and am trying to work out how best to proceed

So far painted I have

10 Tactical Marines, 1 with Grav Gun
10 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifle and 2 x Grenade Launchers
1 x Primaris Chaplain
1 x Primaris Apothecary

I am at the moment painting

1 x Captain (from Indomitus Box set)
1 x Lieutenant (from Indomitus Box Set)
3 x Bladeguard (from Indomitus Box Set)
3 x Centurion Devastator with Lascannons
Belial
1 Deathwing Landraider

Made and Undercoated

6 x Outriders
3 x Bladeguard (from Indomitus Box set)
1 x Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle
3 x Eradicators
10 Assault Intercessors
1 x Ancient with Banner
1 x Phobos Librariarn
10 Heavy Intercessor with Hellstorm Bolt rifle and incl 2Hellstorm Heavy Bolter
10 Heavy Intercessor with Heavy Bolt Rifle and incl 2 Heavy Bolter
1 Invader ATV

I have got 10 Hellblasters which I am going to make as Assault plasma users. I have 10 Deathwing terminators which I will make as Deathwing Knights and Tartaros and Cataphracti terminators to make as normal Deathwing. I am unsure about getting more Ravenwing. Perhaps more bikers. I like the look of the Talonmaster with it being a character keyword model as well as the Land speeder Vengance

What are your thoughts


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/10/08 18:08:13


Post by: ZergSmasher


IronBob wrote:
I am new to the Dark Angels and am trying to work out how best to proceed

So far painted I have

10 Tactical Marines, 1 with Grav Gun
10 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifle and 2 x Grenade Launchers
1 x Primaris Chaplain
1 x Primaris Apothecary

I am at the moment painting

1 x Captain (from Indomitus Box set)
1 x Lieutenant (from Indomitus Box Set)
3 x Bladeguard (from Indomitus Box Set)
3 x Centurion Devastator with Lascannons
Belial
1 Deathwing Landraider

Made and Undercoated

6 x Outriders
3 x Bladeguard (from Indomitus Box set)
1 x Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle
3 x Eradicators
10 Assault Intercessors
1 x Ancient with Banner
1 x Phobos Librariarn
10 Heavy Intercessor with Hellstorm Bolt rifle and incl 2Hellstorm Heavy Bolter
10 Heavy Intercessor with Heavy Bolt Rifle and incl 2 Heavy Bolter
1 Invader ATV

I have got 10 Hellblasters which I am going to make as Assault plasma users. I have 10 Deathwing terminators which I will make as Deathwing Knights and Tartaros and Cataphracti terminators to make as normal Deathwing. I am unsure about getting more Ravenwing. Perhaps more bikers. I like the look of the Talonmaster with it being a character keyword model as well as the Land speeder Vengance

What are your thoughts

You've got a very decent starting core of an army there; I will point out that certain units and weapons are not considered very good at the moment (Dev Centurions and Land Raiders are kinda trash, grav guns aren't very good either). However, you've also got some great units such as Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles (one of the better troops units available to Marines), and Bladeguard. Apothecaries are also good so it's nice that you've got one. On your Terminators, keep in mind that Tartaros and Cataphractii are a different unit from normal Termies (Relic Terminators) and have different wargear options. Ideally, build your Relic Termies to have a LC and Combibolter on each guy; they become very cheap and durable objective holders and are not too shabby in a fight either. For your 10 normal Deathwing models, I would only build one squad of 5 Deathwing Knights, or build them as two separate 5-man squads for flexibility. I've found 10 man units to be a bit unwieldy in game.

If you want to get more Ravenwing (and you should), a Talonmaster is an absolute must-have. They're great. Sammael would be another good buy, or failing that get yourself a Captain on a bike (have to convert that yourself). Some normal Bikers and a couple of boxes of Ravenwing Black Knights would be good as well; the RWBK kit also makes the Command Squad characters (RW Champion, Apothecary, and Ancient), and you will want at least the Apothecary.

Honestly what you should get and how you should proceed really depends on what you are looking to get out of the game. If you're looking to just play fun games with your buddies, anything goes, just buy and paint what you think looks cool. If you're wanting to play more competitively, you'll want to put some thought into how you want your lists to work in order to guide future purchases. There's a ton of resources to guide you all over the Internet (including this very thread!), and of course feel free to ask more questions. I would post a link to Goonhammer's article on Dark Angels, but sadly they haven't finished it yet. They do have other articles about the game and Space Marines in general though.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/10/10 18:41:51


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


IronBob wrote:
I am new to the Dark Angels and am trying to work out how best to proceed

So far painted I have

Spoiler:
10 Tactical Marines, 1 with Grav Gun
10 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifle and 2 x Grenade Launchers
1 x Primaris Chaplain
1 x Primaris Apothecary

I am at the moment painting

1 x Captain (from Indomitus Box set)
1 x Lieutenant (from Indomitus Box Set)
3 x Bladeguard (from Indomitus Box Set)
3 x Centurion Devastator with Lascannons
Belial
1 Deathwing Landraider

Made and Undercoated

6 x Outriders
3 x Bladeguard (from Indomitus Box set)
1 x Captain with Heavy Bolt Rifle
3 x Eradicators
10 Assault Intercessors
1 x Ancient with Banner
1 x Phobos Librariarn
10 Heavy Intercessor with Hellstorm Bolt rifle and incl 2Hellstorm Heavy Bolter
10 Heavy Intercessor with Heavy Bolt Rifle and incl 2 Heavy Bolter
1 Invader ATV

I have got 10 Hellblasters which I am going to make as Assault plasma users. I have 10 Deathwing terminators which I will make as Deathwing Knights and Tartaros and Cataphracti terminators to make as normal Deathwing. I am unsure about getting more Ravenwing. Perhaps more bikers. I like the look of the Talonmaster with it being a character keyword model as well as the Land speeder Vengance


What are your thoughts


Wow - quite a start! No half measures there.

I second the motion to acquire/convert a Ravenwing Talonmaster. Acts a Lieutenant and does crowd control.

As for lists you have plenty of options with what you have. Perhaps make five of your Terminators into Deathwing Knights and five into Deathwing Terminators. If your Ancient is the Bladeguard Ancient from Indomitus then he has the Deathwing Keyword and can take the great damage reduction banner.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/07 02:39:12


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Played in a twenty-player four round Escalation tournament today. 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000 lists and you had to carry over all models and upgrades to each list. A fascinating exercise due to the restraints and constraints of the format. Do you start your design with a 2000 list and neck down, or with a 500 point list and build up? I went for the latter. And the former.

Game 1 Resupply vs Blood Angels.

500 points do not get you very much! I took Azrael, a two-man Deathwing Command Squad with TH/SS, a five-man Tactical Squad a two-strong Attack Bike Squadron with Multi-Meltas. He had Dante, Corbulo and two Tactical Squads. Picking Secondaries was very tricky, so I went with the Mission one, Oath of Moment and Stubborn Defiance. He had first turn, moved up and took out an Attack Bike. My Deathwing Command Squad went after Dante, buffed by Azrael's Chapter Master rerolls. They landed enough TH hits to kill Dante while the Tactical Squad, Azrael and surviving Attack Bike ground down one of his Squads. The Command Squad consolidated into his other Tactical squad, wiping it out in his Turn. He was tabled by the end of my turn. Combat Patrol games can be swing - he underestimated my Command Squad but I did get lucky with my charge. Both of us had high-value Characters you would not normally put in Combat Patrol due to our design for latter games.

Game 2 Ascension vs Grey Knights

At 1000 points I added an Intercessor Squad, an Eradicator Squad with Heavy Melta Rifles and a Multi-melta, a Ravenwing Apothecary and filled out the Deathwing Command Squad to 5 with a Cyclone Missile Launcher (and a Watcher and more TH/SS). My opponent had three Characters, two Dreadknights and two Squads. I took Abhor (it would be rude not to), the Mission Secondary (makes you want to be in the Centre) and Oath of Moment. My massed Multi-Meltas/Heavy Melta Rifles took out his Dreadknights, and while his first Psychic Phase was rough by the end of my second Turn he was down to a single Character facing the full Deathwing Command Squad, Azrael and the Eradicators...

Game 3 Battles Lines vs Orks

I added Deathwing Knights, Ezekiel and another Tactical Squad. He had a Killrig, two Squigasours, bikes, Dethkoptas, Kommandoes, Squigbuggies and some other sundries. I took To the Last, the Mission Secondary and Stubborn Defiance. My plan was to refuse my right and push on my left. I had first turn and took some wounds off the Killrig while the Deathwing Knights took out some Kommandos on a mid-field objective. He went into them with the Dethkoptas, a Squigasaur and the Killrig while a Truck mob with a warboss debussed on my left flank. I lost two Deathwing Knights, but took out the Killrig. The DW Knights and Deathwing Command Squad took down both Squigasaurs over the following two turns. I realized the flaw in my plan as he rolled up my left flank and took out my Stubborn Defiance Intercessors with Squigbuggy fire. I should have split my Terminators - one squad to each flank with a Character.

He was down to a handful of models at the end but had earned a win on Primary and Secondary. I scraped out a decent score with To the Last and the Mission Secondary (45 points total to his 80), and I was happy to see how the Deathwing dealt with some scary stuff. Still, my poor plan cost me the win. I should have split my forces (goes against my instincts), and Stubborn Defiance was not a wise choice given his list.

Game 4 - Priority Target vs Slanesh

I added a Bladeguard Squad, a Bladeguard Ancient with the damage reduction banner, Plasma Inceptors and an Interrogator Chaplain. He had three Keepers of Secrets, Shalaxi, Belakhor and four mobs of Daemonettes. I castled up, hoping to weather the charge and then try to move out. I took Assassinate, Stubborn Defiance and the Mission secondary. He won the roll-off and was on me Turn 1 with two Keepers. One Tactical Squad died but the Bladeguard hung in there.

Melta and Plasma fire took down two Keepers while the Deathwing Knights bowled in and killed the one pestering the Bladeguard, assisted by the Ravenwing Apothecary's Reliquary debuff. Belakor and Shalaxi then died the following turn to both Terminator Squads and the Eradicators, helped again by the Apothecary's brave Invul debuff. After that it was mopping up. The Chaplain's Rite that grants a 5+++ against Mortal Wounds was clutch, as was the Apothecary and Banner.

Summary. I came 2nd with the Ork player coming 1st. The format makes taking concrete list lessons difficult. My firepower was blistering but short-ranged. People pass by the Heavy Melta-Rifle Eradicators but spending 2 CP to count as Stationary plus Grim Resolve and Azrael makes them devastating against foes that want to close with you. Minimum 5 damage at 12" and under is wonderful. Having said that, against Guard or Tau they would likely have struggled.

The Deathwing Knights were money in the bank - the Relic Flail doing its thing again. The five-man Deathwing Terminator Command Squad was an inefficiency brought on by the format, but they certainly did their job. Ezekiel is a force multiplier worth his 125 points. Azrael was an indulgence. His Chapter Master buff on the Attack Bikes who could swan off and kill while he walked with the Eradicators was, however, a big help. The Plasma Inceptors only saw one game, but they were murder against the big Daemonette Squads. 18 shots - eat that! The Ravenwing Apothecary earned more honours with his battlefield surgery and Invul debuff - he was the key to unlocking the Slaneshi list. Its a good thing that his armour is proof against Slaneshi tears.

Thanks for having the Grim Resolve to read my report!



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/07 03:53:10


Post by: ZergSmasher


Nice write-up! That sounds like a fun and different format with its own unique challenges. Good job on 2nd place!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/09 14:47:48


Post by: bullyboy


So I'm narrowing down my 2000pt list which I plan to take to some events in the near future. There are a few units that I just love even though I'm sure I could replace them with something more efficient., that might be just a tough call due to my fondness of said units.

Anyway, it's a RW Outrider and DW Vanguard (shocker)

Sammael (I have a hard time replacing him simply as the full reroll to hits is so good on a unit of Attack Bikes, especially if they advanced first turn. Not to mention placing it on himself. You'd be surprised how many damned ones I roll when I charge Sammy in to something)
Talon Master, Arbiter's Gaze (Brilliant strategist or Rites of War, leaning towards latter)
3 Attack Bikes, MM
3 Attack Bikes, MM
Land Speeder Vengeance (sometimes swingy, but consistent damage often wins out vs certain targets)
5 Black Knights with hammers (usually keep Sammael close for rerolling those ones, but won't give them rerolling all hits unless planning on sending them into melee)
RW Chief Apothecary, selfless healer

Ezekiel (he's my uncertain at the moment, although a great unit)
5 DW Terminators, 3 TH/SS, 2 LC (my stubborn Defiance unit)
5 DW Terminators, SB/PS, 2 TH/SS, 2 SB/CF
5 DW Knights, watcher
2 DW Command squad, SB/PS, TH/SS

Things I'm thinking about...

Black Knights...can be replaced by another terminator squad or a Redemptor dread (probably with full dakka loadout). the dread would give points to upgrade a terminator with Cyclone and probably swap the Command Squad sgt weapons for TH/SS. If I drop the Black Knights, that will for sure kill any real use of Speed of the Raven which has been giving me some good points recently, but Black Knights (one of my favourite units, see intro to post) are very expensive and often fragile.

Ezekiel. He's great, no question, but I'm mostly concerned about my terminators being removed by MWs, they are so rampant now. A MoS Interrogator Chaplain (in term armour or with JP) can give the 5+++ vs MW with Litany of Faith, plus reroll hits in melee and possibly +2" charge if I don't choose to tool him up for combat.
On the flipside, I'm also thinking about Lazarus sneaking in there. He's a bit cheaper (allowing a cyclone to be added), has permanent 5+++ vs MW aura (great for first turn defence and that time you roll a 1 for the chaplain litany), plus giving that reroll 1 to hit (meaning Sammael doesn't have to try and be everywhere). He's becoming a bit of a dark horse actually. I think if I took the Redemptor it would be a done deal since he would be giving it reroll 1s with all those shots.

Another option I'm considering is just not worrying about MW, dropping that additional character (removes Assassinate as an auto take) and adding more to my regular units. It would free up 125pts which could be spent in multiple ways (boost Ravenwing with some obsec bikes), or add to Deathwing with either a second command squad (plus cyclones elsewhere), or even adding a redemptor dread by dropping a single Attack Bike.

Anyway, that's where I'm at currently, lots of options.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/10 00:34:09


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I now take Mortal Wounds very seriously after my DW Knights were shot off the board at a tourney in September by Sisters Stormbolters with their stratagem. 1000 points of Grey Knights on Saturday MW'd their way through an Intercessor Squad and an Attack Bike Squad in one phase.

An Interrogator Chaplain can certainly help with the Litany - he paid off for me on Saturday. I am taking another look at Lazarus, since his 5+++ against MWs is always active. He can be a good HQ for Deathwing.

I like the look of your list. Sammael with Attack Bikes is great. They can swan-off with his Chapter Master reroll while he does something else. The Vengeance has tended to let me down, but it can certainly leave a mark and the 4++ Stratagem is useful.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/10 05:32:01


Post by: ZergSmasher


With Tsons around I'm thinking a single psyker is a trap since it gives them an easy secondary choice, and it locks you out of being able to take Abhor the Witch against them. For me at least, I think Ezekiel is going to be relegated to shelf duty. DA have plenty of other good tools so it's not that hard of a loss.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/11 23:58:12


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
With Tsons around I'm thinking a single psyker is a trap since it gives them an easy secondary choice, and it locks you out of being able to take Abhor the Witch against them. For me at least, I think Ezekiel is going to be relegated to shelf duty. DA have plenty of other good tools so it's not that hard of a loss.


I faced TSons a few weeks ago with Ezekiel and some Deathwing. While I was not able to out-Psyker the TSons, my denies frustrated him for one turn and I was able to prevail elsewhere. I wouldn't shelve Ezekiel just because you might face TSons. He does great work.

Now, if you knew that you were only going to face TSons the decision might be different!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/12 05:32:05


Post by: bullyboy


I'm also contemplating just dropping the character (I already have a TM, Sammy and the RW apothecary), and putting the extra points into more terminators. Either a second command squad (although that doesn't feel right to me), or dropping the original command squad and just adding another 5 man terminator squad. That gives me 3 obsec terminator units in addition to the knights and Ravenwing.
I probably should give the Terminator chaplain a run first to see if I like him, probably a better choice than Lazarus.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/13 13:21:19


Post by: adam304


Hey all! Just started collecting Dark Angels and this thread has been great to read through!

There are so many options it’s an exciting army to build, but almost too many options as I’m not sure what to grab next ha, so thought I’d get some opinions.

I don’t play often so this isn’t to be competitive, more about collecting but with the view to playing more soon.

So I have the below so far, based on a fluffy idea of Phobos marines scouting ahead and then needing to call in the rest of the army…

Phobos captain
Infiltrators x10 with Comms array
Eliminators
Attack bikes x3 with melta

I love the look of blade guard, terminators, plasma inceptors, redemptor dread, heavy intercessors, hellblasters, Phobos lieutenant…. Plus characters like Ezekiel, Belial and Azrael. So too many options as I build out to a 750-1k point list haha!

At 2k I’m going for greenwing and deathwing with a couple of ravenwing units within (rather than a full outrider detachment)… so welcome any thoughts on what might be a good next buy. TIA!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/13 14:42:06


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


adam304 wrote:
Spoiler:
Hey all! Just started collecting Dark Angels and this thread has been great to read through!

There are so many options it’s an exciting army to build, but almost too many options as I’m not sure what to grab next ha, so thought I’d get some opinions.

I don’t play often so this isn’t to be competitive, more about collecting but with the view to playing more soon.

So I have the below so far, based on a fluffy idea of Phobos marines scouting ahead and then needing to call in the rest of the army…

Phobos captain
Infiltrators x10 with Comms array
Eliminators
Attack bikes x3 with melta

I love the look of blade guard, terminators, plasma inceptors, redemptor dread, heavy intercessors, hellblasters, Phobos lieutenant…. Plus characters like Ezekiel, Belial and Azrael. So too many options as I build out to a 750-1k point list haha!

At 2k I’m going for greenwing and deathwing with a couple of ravenwing units within (rather than a full outrider detachment)… so welcome any thoughts on what might be a good next buy. TIA!


Welcome to the Rock! You have a nice core with the Attack Bikes as your hammer. I am taking a Phobos-themed list to a 1000 point event in a few weeks...

I put your list right around 600 points. Based on your preferences, I can offer two routes to 1000 points:

Deathwing Terminators (Cyclone Missile Launcher and a couple of Storm Shields with a Watcher) and 3 x Plasma Inceptors. The Terminators can start on the board and trudge to the centre, or can drop in on Turn 2 near your Captain who can be pretty much anywhere. The Plasma Inceptors can drop in with them near the Phobos Captain to make a serious shooting/melee combo. You will want those Captain rerolls for the Plasma while the Deathwing can be a wall between the Inceptors and melee threats they do not kill with their first volley.

Bladeguard x 3, Plasma Inceptors x 3 and Heavy Intercessors. This gives you better board presence with the Heavy Intercessors looking after a home field objective and the Bladeguard trudging up into the middle.

Good luck!



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/14 01:57:56


Post by: bullyboy


adam304 wrote:

So I have the below so far, based on a fluffy idea of Phobos marines scouting ahead and then needing to call in the rest of the army…

Phobos captain
Infiltrators x10 with Comms array
Eliminators
Attack bikes x3 with melta


I like your core concept and think a good way to expand is to add a Talon Master (another Ravenwing unit) and a Deathwing Terminator squad. Then you have the idea of the phobos scouting out the area, directing the Ravenwing units to the point of contact, then the Talon master calls upon the Deathwing unit via teleport to the heart of the battle.

Phobos captain 95
Talon Master 175
Infiltrators with comms 245
Deathwing Terminator squad, 2 TH/SS, cyclone missile launcher, watcher 225
3 Attack Bikes with MM 180
3 eliminators 75

995pts

Nice thing about this is it gives you an opportunity to paint all 3 variations of Dark Angels.




For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/14 04:38:21


Post by: ZergSmasher


One thing to consider as an expansion for your current collection would be the Dark Angels Combat Patrol box. You get a Primaris Chaplain (kinda meh, but not bad starting out), Intercessors (very handy to have), Inceptors (you definitely want these guys), and a Redemptor Dreadnought (also a solid unit right now), plus some DA accessories you can use to make your guys look cooler. Not a bad deal for the cost.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/14 10:22:25


Post by: adam304


Thanks everyone! Awesome ideas.

Love the two list options, TangoTwoBravo. Both the idea of having Heavy Intercessors on a backfield objective with Grim Resolve for Stubborn Deviance, or having Terminators and Inceptors drop in!

The fluffy idea from Bullyboy is really cool too, so will definitely look in to a Talonmaster a bit more.

Plus looks like I’ll be getting Inceptors at some point and the Redemptor Dread is a nice model so the combat patrol box sounds like a good deal.

Thanks again. Love that this army has so many viable options.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/11/14 18:40:47


Post by: bullyboy


Going back to my earlier list I wonder if it's not worth worrying about MW and just add more bodies..

So if I were to drop the Interrogator Chaplain and 2 man DW Command Squad, I could simply take another 5 man DW terminator squad. That give me my Ravenwing fast elements with all the ranged punch (Attack Bikes, Black Knights, vengeance, TM, Sammael) and several blocks of terminators (3 5 man DW blocks for obsec objective control and a 5 man DW knight unit to be a little more punchy). The list would still have 3 watchers for some DTW.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/12/12 20:52:01


Post by: Araablane


Can Deathwing force work in 1250- 1500 pts or its need more bodies that 2k provides?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/12/13 04:29:29


Post by: ZergSmasher


Araablane wrote:
Can Deathwing force work in 1250- 1500 pts or its need more bodies that 2k provides?

I think it could work; you might want to run more Bladeguard rather than Terminators if you are concerned about bodies, although only the Terminators have ObSec in a Deathwing Vanguard detachment. Then again, Bladeguard aren't that much cheaper than Terminators if you keep the Termies barebones; they do move a little bit faster though.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/12/13 20:51:46


Post by: Araablane


I dont really want Bladeguards as i dont enjoy the models but im trying to figure out a list before going all in.
For the core im thinking something like this but no idea what HQ-s or support to add.
I like the Deathwing look and fluff but game wise, im out of my depth.
Going for 1500pts:


++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Dark Angels) [40 PL, 9CP, 910pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: Dark Angels

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ Elites +

Deathwing Knights [11 PL, 235pts]: Knight Master
. 4x Deathwing Knight: 4x Mace of Absolution, 4x Storm shield

Deathwing Knights [11 PL, 235pts]: Knight Master
. 4x Deathwing Knight: 4x Mace of Absolution, 4x Storm shield

Deathwing Terminator Squad [9 PL, 220pts]
. Deathwing Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolter, Power Fist: Cyclone missile launcher, Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist

Deathwing Terminator Squad [9 PL, 220pts]
. Deathwing Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Thunder hammer
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher, Storm Bolter, Power Fist: Cyclone missile launcher, Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. Deathwing Terminator
. . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist

++ Total: [40 PL, 9CP, 910pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/12/13 23:05:57


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I actually find 1250 to 1500 harder than 1000 points with all Deathwing. With Matched Play, you are playing the missions on big maps with more objectives once you are over 1000 points.

My 1000 point core list for Deathwing is something like:

Ezekiel
Deathwing Apothecary (you can go Ravenwing Apothecary if you are feeling cheeky)
Deathwing Command Squad (2 dudes)
Deathwing Terminators x 10 (can combat squad)
Deathwing Knights x 5

You can add another 10 man Deathwing Terminator Squad and a Deathwing Ancient for 1500 points. Give the Deathwing Ancient the Banner of Repentance. You will have to be careful with weapon upgrades with those 10-man squads, but you can squeeze in some Cyclone Missile Launchers and Thunderhammers/Stormshields.

The Deathwing Terminator Squads will have Obsec, and can either stay as big units or split up as the situation dictates. The Command Squad can either bodyguard Ezekiel or hold an objective in a pinch. The Deathwing Knights are you giant-killers.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/12/14 09:51:27


Post by: Araablane


Hmm, im afraid that also and may be should start with 1K points and see how it goes.
I will steal your list, if thats okay
Thankie you very much for the advice, i have something to work with now.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/12/14 23:27:13


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Araablane wrote:
Hmm, im afraid that also and may be should start with 1K points and see how it goes.
I will steal your list, if thats okay
Thankie you very much for the advice, i have something to work with now.


Many would opt for another squad of Deathwing Terminators or Relic Terminators instead of Deathwing Knights, but I like their ability to smash pretty much anything in the game.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2021/12/15 13:10:05


Post by: Araablane


I feel DW Knights are a must as they are such a iconic models.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/11 10:08:57


Post by: Smirrors


Its 2022, have people come up with new list compositions to handle the latest meta?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/14 22:01:18


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 Smirrors wrote:
Its 2022, have people come up with new list compositions to handle the latest meta?


Well, it seems that Deathwing Terminators and Attack Bikes are our main tools. Know knows what GT22 will bring?

I have a local tourney next month (or later if the latest partial lockdown continues). I am planning to take a Deathwing Detachment consisting of a big squad of Terminators and Deathwing Knights Squad along with Lazarus, a RW Apothecary and a DW Ancient as my anvil. Although they will have hammers. Park that. Lazarus is there for Mortal Wound mitigation.

The rest of my force will be a Patrol with Intercessors, Attack Bikes, Eradicators and Plasma Inceptors as the Hammer with Azrael protecting/buffing them. If they change the Patrol to a single Fast Attack I will have some decisions to make. Probably drop the Plasma Inceptors? I have really enjoyed the Eradicators with Heavy Melta Rifles and a Multi-Melta walking along with Azrael, while Attack Bikes have so much kill in them.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/15 04:21:50


Post by: ZergSmasher


Part of it is going to be what points get changed with GT2022. I've heard that VolCons are going up significantly, but that's literally all I've heard for Space Marines. As far as wishlisting, hopefully they walk back the decision to make Outriders cost 50 ppm as that makes them just unplayably overcosted. I'd also like to see a drop to Invader ATVs, as without Core or the possibility of being revived by Apothecaries they aren't worth 85 ppm (with the melta). It would also be nice to see Corvus Hammers become just a free wargear option on Black Knights, but I'm probably dreaming now.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/17 07:36:52


Post by: Timur


i think in current meta the only list choices are ether full ravenwing or full deathwing.

Going full ravenwing provides you with the maximum offensive power and mobility you can get from dark angels codex. So your goal would be to maneuver and deny your oponent scoring his primiary objective by shooting him off objectives. Terminators will usually require some backup and you will lose alot of points by mixing them in, loosing fire power

Full deathwing is mostly about playing around secondary objectives that dont require you moving around the field, there is the stubborn defience and to the last secondaries which will likely get you 30 pts.
For third mission you can take banners or some mission secondary providing you with another 10ish points. if you go even on primary objectives with your opponent then you are likely to outscore him


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/21 05:36:37


Post by: ZergSmasher


It's a good time to be a Ravenwing player! Black Knights are going down 5 ppm, both planes are going down 15, and Storm Speeders are going down 10, making them somewhat more attractive.

Personally I still don't think the planes are worth it. The Nephy mostly carries D2 weapons, which are a non-starter these days with so much stuff having -1 damage. The Dark Talon has a cute gimmick with the mortal wound gun (DA have been ignoring invul saves before it was cool!), but it still pays too much for the privilege. I'd love to be wrong though. Black Knights getting cheaper is a big help; those things are real good now. I'll probably be trying out a 10-man unit to maximize efficiency with Weapons from the Dark Age. In our current world of -1 damage, it's probably not worth taking the Corvus hammers, but mine are modeled with them so I will be taking them. Not everything in the game has -1 damage, so they'll come in handy sometimes (such as Space Marine matchups).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/21 21:26:08


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


It is nice to see Black Knights come down 5 points. Still don't think that the planes are very competitive.

The previewed changes to Secondaries in GT22 changes could have an impact on Deathwing lists. One of the keys to Deathwing design has been to build to the maxing out of two Secondaries: Oath of Moment and Stubborn Defiance. We could double-dip from Codex Space Marines and our Supplement. Now, two of your Secondaries must come from the GT22 mission pack, so you can only take one of those easy ones. Additionally, the changes to Retrieve Nachos Data make 2-man Deathwing Command Squads less useful as Action dudes.

I think that all-Deathwing is still absolutely viable, but it will not be as easy to plan on maxing out on the same Secondaries each game without adjustments.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/22 15:49:35


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Reflecting more on the changes to Secondaries, the ability for Bikers to perform Retrieve Nachos Data is a buff to Ravenwing. Engage on all Fronts is a bit more challenging for a Ravenwing list now since MSU bike squads only have to lose one model to lose the ability to count. Still, being able to do the Retrieve secondary is great.

Playing with my Ravenwing lists right now, investing some of the saved points in larger Bike Squadrons to see how it works out. Bigger squadrons are needed, I think, due to both those Secondaries.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/23 19:10:04


Post by: ZergSmasher


RND is not super easy for Ravenwing, unless you are running 6-model units, or can live with a chance for it to fail. If you are running larger units for RND, Engage is less of an issue. Death on the Wind is probably still an auto-take for pure Ravenwing, though.

Regarding Storm Speeders, with the points drop, a Thunderstrike variant is 150 points. Personally I think that's pretty good, considering its main weapons can operate out of reach of a lot of the nastier stuff like Multi-meltas. The Hammerstrike version can potentially hit harder but has to do so while within range of such weapons. I don't really care for the Hailstrike version at all; we have Talonmasters for its role.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/24 07:15:59


Post by: Timur


i think going full deathwing is still better than ravenwing builds, mostly due to how fragile ravenwing is.

Even though DA cant take oath of atonement anymore, i think "To the last" may be a good replacement

Its possible for DA to take vanilla terminators which are the same thing except they have teleport homer instead of watcher.
With teleport homer you can put them in reserves when models count start getting too low and possibly score 15 points
and another 15 with stubborn defiance.

Third mission is usually the tough one, but assuming ezekiel is included there are a few options depending on match up: banners, ritual or even nachmund data which should not be hard with 10 man terminator squads


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/28 23:33:55


Post by: Vulshra


I disagree. I don't think ravenwing is overly fragile if built correctly. the 5++ on everything means if you take larger/max squads they stand up to a reasonable amount


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/30 06:51:33


Post by: ZergSmasher


Just played a game with my Dark Angels last night. Full Ravenwing army, vs. my friend's Ultramarines. And it was a one-sided roflstomp in my favor, as my list was fairly optimized and his was more fluffy and fun, plus I got first turn. Don't remember the score; we called it at the bottom of turn 2, where the only full unit of mine that had died was my Ravenwing Champion, and my opponent only had Calgar, some Intercessors, and a couple of Infiltrators left. I honestly felt bad that it was so one-sided; I might have brought a less optimized list if I had known what my friend was running. He does want to learn to play more competitively, so I plan to get more games with him and work with him on how to build lists and play better.

All that being said, I love how freaking FAST Ravenwing are! They are super fun to play! Death On The Wind is probably a gimmie Secondary choice in most games with them, as is Engage On All Fronts (probably not in the new missions though since all it takes is one dead bike from a min size squad and they can't score it anymore). Sure, Deathwing is probably more competitive overall, but it's just not as fun of a playstyle IMO.

My list, for the curious:
Spoiler:
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Sammael
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Warlord (Rites of War), Heavenfall Blade
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Arbiter's Gaze
10 Ravenwing Black Knights: 10x Corvus Hammer
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer) (No Force Org Slot)
Ravenwing Champion: Chapter Champion, Hero of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Blade of Triumph (No Force Org Slot)
5 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, 2x Chainsword, Combi-Melta
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, Lightning Claw
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, Storm Bolter
3 Attack Bikes: 3x Multi-Melta
Land Speeder Vengeance: Heavy Bolter
Storm Speeder Thunderstrike

What's awesome is that with the new points changes, this list gets cheaper by 60 points, so I could throw in a couple more bodies in the Bike units, or just one additional Bike and swap out the Vengeance for a second Thunderstrike.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/31 03:41:04


Post by: Timur


Ravenwing is fun as long as you are able to kill stuff. Ive played full ravenwing against tyranids and the game was over by turn 3, hive guards are just broken right now.

So deathwing is definetly more competetive.

Looking at LVO results, Charlie Andre scrored 5 wins out of 6 at loosing only to drukhari and beating knights, deathguard, grey knights,black templars and necrons.
He ran a full deathwing list with mostly thunderhammers.


I think it may not be as good after CA2022, but its still solid


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/31 07:22:16


Post by: ZergSmasher


I just looked through some of the LVO results myself, and it looks like the 4 highest placing Dark Angels lists (placing 14th, 78th, 112th, and 141st) were all variations on the "Oops! All Terminators" theme, with the only real differences being how the units of Terminators were kitted out. 3 of the 4 lists took a tooled-up Interrogator-Chaplain as the Warlord, which I didn't know was a thing in competitive play. I thought most Deathwing lists took Azrael. Shows what I know, eh?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/31 08:11:24


Post by: Oldman Lee


At the end of the day it all comes down to what you want to play I find the deathwing brick list boring to use and play against tbh I've been looking at running ravenwing as my list for the local events in my area as Zergsmasher said there just more fun to use

Hive guard like you say are broken at the moment crusher stampede list has no being place in the game in my opinion


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/01/31 12:48:05


Post by: Timur


 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just looked through some of the LVO results myself, and it looks like the 4 highest placing Dark Angels lists (placing 14th, 78th, 112th, and 141st) were all variations on the "Oops! All Terminators" theme, with the only real differences being how the units of Terminators were kitted out. 3 of the 4 lists took a tooled-up Interrogator-Chaplain as the Warlord, which I didn't know was a thing in competitive play. I thought most Deathwing lists took Azrael. Shows what I know, eh?


The list that got 14th place took alot of lightning claws.

I thought chainfist + hammers are the way to go.

Would be great if we could get some footage from his games.

Seems like his strategy was to focus any chaff / obsec units and hold objectives. the rerolls to wound on claws and addittional attacks are great for this


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/01 00:41:00


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I think that LVO used the GT2021 Mission Pack, and therefore had better access to guaranteed high-scoring Secondaries for Deathwing. The Deathwing lists have been focusing on maxing out Secondaries (including both Stubborn Defiance and Oath of Moment) and simply surviving on a couple of other mid-field objectives with big groups of Obsec Deathwing. I haven't played with the new mission pack - I have a tourney in three weeks and we'll see how it turns out. My read of the missions over the weekend tells me that you need a bit more mobility these days, but that is a hot take! Obsec Terminators that can only be wounded on a 4+ are always going to play the mission well to some extent.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/01 05:36:52


Post by: ZergSmasher


I've had this idea bouncing around in my head for a list that brings both a Ravenwing Outrider and a Deathwing Vanguard, using nothing but ObSec models aside from characters. Here's a rough idea using models I personally own:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Relic: Benediction of Fury, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (The Imperium's Sword), Paragon of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10-man Deathwing Terminator Squad: 3x TH/SS, 1x Power Sword/Storm Bolter (on Sgt.), 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5-man Relic Terminator Squad: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment:
Ravenwing Talonmaster
3-man Bike Squad: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword, Attack Bike with MM
3-man Bike Squad: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword, Attack Bike with MM
3-man Bike Squad: 2x Chainsword, Storm Bolter, Attack Bike with MM
3-man Outrider Squad
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)

If you split up the 10-man Deathwing unit, you have a total of 8 ObSec units that are either highly mobile (Ravenwing) or durable (Deathwing). Bit of a "Hammer and Anvil" approach. The Relic Termies are kitted out the way they are because those are the models I have; dropping the extra weapons on them for Combibolters would free up 10 points to put something else on the Bikers. Having 4 models in each of the Bike units gives us a bit of leeway for Engage on All Fronts eligibility in the new missions; they now have to lose 2 models to be disqualified. The Outrider unit is only there because you can't have more than 3 Bike Squads due to Rule of 3, and I didn't want to take something that wasn't ObSec.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/05 05:44:26


Post by: Third_Age_of_Baggz


Oldman Lee wrote:


Hive guard like you say are broken at the moment crusher stampede list has no being place in the game in my opinion


What’s the beef with Crusher Stampede?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/05 23:02:25


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Took a Deathwing-heavy force against Crusher Stampede today in a warm-up match for an upcoming tourney. My list is a variation on something that I placed 2nd with at a tourney in Nov:

Vanguard: Azrael, 10 x Deathwing Terminators (Cyclone x 2 and 5 Stormshields), 5 x Deathwing Terminators (Cyclone and 1 x Stormshield), 5 x Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Ancient
Patrol: Ezekiel, 5 x Incursors, 3 x Eradicators (with the Heavy Melta Rifles), Ravenwing Apothecary and 4 x Plasma Inceptors.

He had a bunch o big bugs with some Hive Guard. We rolled up Data Scrye Salvage - a tough one for both of us due to Hold 2/Hold 3/ Hold More. I took Stubborn Defiance, Bring it Down and Banners. My plan was to hold my objective and right mid-field while contesting the left with the Deathwing Knights.

My shooting against his bug bugs stripped a grand total of 7 wounds: -1 Damage and the 5++ was tough to chew through. His non-LOS shooting took out my Eradicators Turn 1 and then the Plasma Inceptors Turn 2. His Stratagem to roll for Mortals wounds on a charge was devastating. Even capped at 6 MWs per charge, that was two dead Terminators each time before we even got swinging. Damage reduction was a real nerf to my Maces and Hammers as well. The Plasma Inceptors did four wounds with their supercharged WFTDA volley before they died. Damage reduction really hurts!

The Incurors did remarkably well, holding my objective for four turns and killing a Harpy. Go Incursors! The rest of my army was ground down. We took some big bugs with us and were doing OK on Primary until Turn 4 and 5 when I was tabled in his Turn 4.

Its a tough matchup. I think a Deathwing force needs some screening troops to survive against a Crusher Stampede. Still, a fun game and good to see the Stampede on the table. The Blood Angel next to me lost 800 points of models Turn 1 to Tau shooting...So at least I can say I had a better game! Kinda...


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/06 04:21:17


Post by: ZergSmasher


Sounds like you had some crappy dice or your opponent's were red hot. That and Crusher Stampede is broken af right now. I'm surprised he was able to just grind you down that easily despite needing 4+ to wound your Termies, even if he was deleting models on the charge with the mortals.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/06 14:38:31


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sounds like you had some crappy dice or your opponent's were red hot. That and Crusher Stampede is broken af right now. I'm surprised he was able to just grind you down that easily despite needing 4+ to wound your Termies, even if he was deleting models on the charge with the mortals.


We do tend to remember the times when our opponent makes three 5++ saves or rolls all 4s on his Wound rolls! My first (and only) Eradicator volley hit well enough, but I rolled a bunch of 3s for the Wounds. I had one pre-emptive charge roll (to avoid the MW thing) that needed a 7 fail even with a CP. Beyond that my own rolls were OK.

I will give two vignettes. My Deathwing Knights were faced off against a Harpy and a Flying Hive Tyrant. His shooting chipped off two wounds and then a charge did 6 Mortal Wounds. So I have to pick up two Deathwing Knights before the fight has started. He then finishes off a third (wounded) DW Knight with his own attack. My riposte (with two DW Knights) got two hits through his 4++ Invul, so four wounds (instead of six). In the following round I lost another DW Knight but did land two more wounding hits, so the Flying Hive Tyrant was now down to four wounds (he would normally be dead by now). In the last round of melee I landed a final blow (2 wounds) and then died. The crippled, but still alive and dangerous Flying Hive Tyrant then flew off to fight another squad. The same DW Knight Squad withstood the charge of a Keeper of Secrets in Nov and killed it with one round of Maces.

A second Flying Hive Tyrant fought Azrael, Ezekiel and a Deathwing Bodyguard Squad from behind while a Scythed Heriodule(?) fought two five-man DW Squads to the front. With a (-1) to wound roll Relic Azrael and Ezekiel were wounding with their swords on 6s. That Flying HIve Tyrant did die, but he took all those with him (two DW Termies for the squads fighting to the front had to help out in that fight to kill the Hive Tyrant). Meanwhile, even with my Banner damage reduction the big bug removed two models with a charge and killed one DW Terminator with each of my failed saves. I had five Thunderhammers going into him, but again with damage reduction and a 5++ save I only hurt the bug.

The game score was actually pretty close as I tried to play to the objectives, but I was tabled. I think that pure Deathwing will struggle against the Crusher Stampede. It needs some bubble-wrap to absorb the charges.

I don't imagine that Hive Guard will keep the shoot twice stratagem, so perhaps my Eradicators (or Attack Bikes) would have survived another turn once the new Tyranid book comes out. A list needs high-damage shots do deal with those big bugs. Massed Plasma and Hammers/Maces are not the answer!

Now, this was my first game against the Stampede, and perhaps I was a little too "I have Inner Circle, what, me worry?" at the start of the game?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/06 19:10:00


Post by: ZergSmasher


What kind of bubble wrap could we take without diluting the Deathwing too much? I definitely agree that we need the high damage stuff, like Eradicators and MM Attack Bikes. Cyclones are good on the Terminators, I would think, especially since you can pop Deathwing Assault on the turn they land for +1 to wound.

Maybe Azrael's lack of success is part of why at LVO most of the DA players were running a Jump Pack Interrogator Chaplain, tooled up for killing. Azzy would be kind of anemic vs. Crusher, although his reroll buff is very handy to have. But, you give an Interrogator the Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury, and the Mantra of Strength and suddenly he just straight up murders things, especially in later turns when the Deathwing part of our super doctrine kicks in and we get rerolls to wound vs. monsters (that right there should help a bit with Crusher Stampede).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/06 19:45:09


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 ZergSmasher wrote:
What kind of bubble wrap could we take without diluting the Deathwing too much? I definitely agree that we need the high damage stuff, like Eradicators and MM Attack Bikes. Cyclones are good on the Terminators, I would think, especially since you can pop Deathwing Assault on the turn they land for +1 to wound.

Maybe Azrael's lack of success is part of why at LVO most of the DA players were running a Jump Pack Interrogator Chaplain, tooled up for killing. Azzy would be kind of anemic vs. Crusher, although his reroll buff is very handy to have. But, you give an Interrogator the Imperium's Sword trait, Benediction of Fury, and the Mantra of Strength and suddenly he just straight up murders things, especially in later turns when the Deathwing part of our super doctrine kicks in and we get rerolls to wound vs. monsters (that right there should help a bit with Crusher Stampede).


Good points - Dark Angel bubble-wrap does not come cheap! I was quite sad-panda at the end of my Turn 1 shooting phase when an Eradicator Squad with a multi-melta and two Heavy Melta Rifles plus two Cyclone Missile Launchers stripped a total of 7 wounds off a big bug...In melee I was hopeful that our superdoctrine would help in Turn 3 (I put one squad in Assault Doctrine earlier with a Strat). It was good to reroll wounds with Thunderhammers.

In the interests of transparency, this is a list that I am taking to a local tourney in two weeks - our lists were due a week ago. I did not tailor at all against a Crusher Stampede - I took Azrael to protect and buff my shooters. That worked great at a tourney in the fall, yesterday not so much! I think you are right that a Chaplain might be the way to go with Deathwing. Maybe two to give some Mortal Wound protection? Maybe its time for Lazarus to come off the bench and hit the ice! Probably not, but the thought is there.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/06 20:23:04


Post by: ZergSmasher


Lazarus is a cute idea, but he only blocks about a third of the MW coming in and doesn't do a whole lot else. I'm sure he's hilarious in the GK matchup, because he not only stops some of the mortal wounds but his sword goes to D4 vs. psykers which combined with the super doctrine means he drops a Dreadknight in one turn, at least if your opponent is a little unlucky with the saves.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/11 04:17:51


Post by: Vulshra


How exactly does one kit out an interigator properly?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/11 05:37:04


Post by: ZergSmasher


Vulshra wrote:
How exactly does one kit out an interigator properly?

My idea for this:
-Jump pack for mobility
-Master of Sanctity for the extra Litany each turn
-Make him the Warlord and give him Paragon of the Chapter; take the Wise Orator (more reliable Litanies) and The Imperium's Sword (murder stuff better) traits
-Give him the Benediction of Fury relic (starts at AP-2 D3)
-Litany-wise, take Mantra of Strength (for making the Interrogator hit harder) and either Exhortation of Rage (use on the Interrogator himself for +1 to wound) or Canticle of Hate (6" radius bubble of +2" to charge).
-Profit! If you get Mantra of Strength off, your Interrogator is making 7 attacks on the charge, hitting on 2's, at S8 AP-2 D4, rerolling all wounds if you are in Assault Doctrine due to being Deathwing Infantry. You also have permanent Transhuman Physiology because, again, Deathwing Infantry.

I've seen one or two lists that took a Chainsword and upgraded it to the Teeth of Terra, but I prefer Benediction of Fury as it does enough damage to matter even to -1 damage targets. Your other real option is to use the Interrogator as a buff-bot and just take litanies to boost the capabilities of your other units. In this case, it could be useful to take the Litany of Faith for a 5+++ against mortal wounds, which are one thing that reliably gets around the defenses of our Deathwing units.

Edit: the reroll wounds from Assault Doctrine only works vs. vehicles and monsters. Still good though, as those are where you generally need more damage.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/25 03:42:18


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


As the strike cruiser heads back to the Rock I am sending my after action report from a five-round 24 player local tournament. I do this so that others can learn from my mistakes.

We had to submit our lists as CA2022 dropped. I went with a variation on a list that I had used to obtain a 2nd place finish in the fall:

Deathwing Vanguard: Azrael, 10 x DW Terminators (TH/SS and Cyclone Launchers), 5 x DW Terminators, 5 x DW Knights, DW Ancient with Standard and Watched, 2 x DW Command Squad.

Patrol: Ezekiel, 5 x Incursors, 3 x Eradicators with Heavy Melta Rifles and Multi-Melta, 4 x Plasma Inceptors, Ravenwing Apothecary with Reliquary of Repentence

I took Ezekiel as a calculated risk. He had done very well for me before, and I figured if I went up against Thousand Sons I would take my licks. My plan for Secondaries was Oath of Moment, Investigate Signal and perhaps Warp Ritual (own the centre of the board with resilient Deathwing).I realized after I submitted my list that I should have bumped the Command Squad to 3 to be able to perform the Investigate Signal action. Oops.

Game 1: Recover the Relics vs Necrons. He had two big blobs of Warriors, 5 x Wraiths, 6 x Skorpeckh Destroyers, 3 x Canoptek Doomstalkers and some support characters. He moved his Wraiths and Destroyers forward with a pre-game move even though I was going first. Turn 1 my Plasma Inceptors wiped out the Destroyers. His Wraiths bounced off my Deathwing who then crushed them, taking advantage of the Ravenwing Apothecary de-buff of invuls. The Deathwing Knights then pinballed through both Warrior blobs (Relic Flail) while the Eradicators took down the Doomstalkers. A decisive win with 81 points. Investigate Sites was a pain once my Incurors were dead since I lacked a squad to park on the objective.

Game 2: Tear Down their Icons vs Thousand Sons. Uh-oh. He had Ahriman, two 10 man Rubric Terminator Squads, three Rubric Marine squads and some Spawn. I took Oath of Moment, Raise the Banners and Engage on All Fronts. I sent two DW Squads wide while the rest of my force went up the middle, keeping the Plasma Inceptors in deep strike. My Eradicators killed six Terminators and got his attention. His Psychic phase was devastating and the Eradicators died to a variety of powers. I then realized that his second Terminator squad could kill my Plasma Inceptors when they dropped with their Psychic equivalent of Auspex Scan (18" range). They then picked on other targets while the Deathwing Knights made it into the second Rubric Terminator Squad and ground them down to two models. We both maxed on Primary, but he was able to max out his Psychic secondary due to Ezekiel along with Mental Interrogation. I lost but still scored over 60 points. Ezekiel was a major liability.

Game 3: Abandoned Sanctuaries vs Drukhari. He had a Patrol of Wracks, Grots and Talos, a Patrol of Wyches and Hellions and a Patrol of Kabal along with two Raiders and two Ravagers. I took Investigate Signal, Psychic Ritual and Oath of Moment. I went first and grabbed the centre with the DW Knights up front shielding Ezekiel with the DW Command Squad tucked behind to stop folks with Fly zooming over to attack him. His fire on my DW Knights was devastating and killed three. The Talos were then able to kill them along with Ezekiel. At this point I knew the game was lost but I remembered my Oaths and fought on. I maxed on Primary, killed lots of stuff and had a knot of Dark Angels in the centre of the board but with only three points for Ritual I lost the game on Secondaries.

Game 4: Conversion vs Thousand Sons. Darn darn darnity darn. He had Magnus, Ahriman, a Demon Prince, some Librarian/Priest dude, a big Rubric Terminator Squad, a Defiler sort of things and some support squad. I took Oath of Moment, Investigate Signal and Assassinate. Turn 1 my Eradicator and Missile Launchers rolled hot and Magnus went down, as did half of the Terminators. The Defiler and Demon Prince also went down to Maces of Aboslution and the invul debuff. His Psychic riposte was terrifying, though, and Ahriman consisently inflicted 8 to 11 MWs each turn. Once again I maxed out on Primary and Oath, but he also maxed out on Primary as well as his Psychic one (based on MWs) as well as Mental Interrogation. It was a close game with me losing my 3 points. Full credit to my opponent for getting the win after having his lynch-pin killed Turn 1. I also gave up a turn of movement for a DW squad to get better Cyclone shots on Magnus that cost me later (in that they likely could have denied him max Primary had they moved Turn 1).

Game 5: Tide of Conviction vs Crusher Stampede. Hold 2 Hold 3 is not friendly to Deathing, nor is Crusher Stampede. Still, I grimly resolved to make the best of it. He came at my with two Flyrants, a Swarmlord and some other big bug while Hive Guard and an Exocrine rained death on me. I kept the DW Knights in deep strike and tried to keep the rest of my force back while offering my Incurors as MW sponges. The Heavy Eradicators took down a Flyrant while the deep-striking DW Knights killed two others over three turns and crippled a third. I did poorly on Primary, though, as he killed my small DW squads on the flanks. I held the centre of the battlefield and had him on the run but lost the game.

Lessons. So I went 1 and 4, although my placing was surprisingly high due to my high scores in each game. I never got blown out (scoring between 50 and 73 in my losses), but it was clear to me that my GT 2021 design and tactics would need to be adjusted going forward.

Leave Psykers at home. Taking Ezekiel handed two wins to my opponent on Secondaries. Handing over 15 VPs for their "score more MWs in the Psychic Phase" also locked me out of Abhor the Witch. Self-inflicted wound.
Deathwing have issues with Secondaries now. I would trade one DW Squad for two small Tactical or Intercessor Squads to open up the RND/Engage on all Fronts Secondaries. I should have taken a three-man DW Command Squad to try to make my Investigate Signal plan work. I think that Secondary could work if you built for it.
Heavy Eradicators are really good. They can eat CPs, but they work through the damage reduction that is quite common. Attack Bikes are probably better in many cases, but give those heavy melta-rifles a look.
The DW Ancient with the Standard of Repentance was underwhelming. Most are planning for damage reduction so either take high volume D1 or guaranteed D4 damage (Dark Lances etc). Watched sounded good in theory but the Thousand Sons can spend Cabal Points to have a power be undeniable. Those points would have been better served with another Command Squad or an Intercessor Squad for the Patrol.
Deathwing Knights are still really good. They don't need a babysitter and can kill pretty much anything.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/25 21:39:02


Post by: Vulshra


Tango Two, given you said melta bikes are probably better than eradicators, are looking to engage on all fonts, and need more 3 man squads why not a RW outrider detachment instead of a patrol to support the DW Vanguard? I think you could fit it relatively easily


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/26 06:19:28


Post by: ZergSmasher


Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (Wise Orator), Paragon of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic: Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10 Deathwing Terminators: Power Sword/SB on Sgt., 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 3x TH/SS, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5 Relic Terminators: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, SB on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Outriders
2000 points, starts with 6 CP

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
No Force Org: 5 Voidsmen-At-Arms
Captain on Bike: Chapter Master, LC, SB, Warlord (Hunter), extra Trait (Imperium's Sword), Frost Weapon
Primaris Chaplain on Bike: Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Primaris Librarian: Chief Librarian, The Armor of Russ, Hero of the Chapter (+1 to casting, whatever it's called), Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Instincts Awoken
5 Intercessors: Auto Bolt Rifles, Chainsword
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts: Combat Knives
5 Bladeguard Veterans
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
6 Long Fangs: 4x MM, Grav Cannon, Chainsword on Sgt., WGPL with Chainsword/SS
2x Land Speeder Storm
Drop Pod
Impulsor: Shield Dome

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/26 14:30:56


Post by: redux


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (Wise Orator), Paragon of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic: Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10 Deathwing Terminators: Power Sword/SB on Sgt., 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 3x TH/SS, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5 Relic Terminators: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, SB on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Outriders
2000 points, starts with 6 CP

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
No Force Org: 5 Voidsmen-At-Arms
Captain on Bike: Chapter Master, LC, SB, Warlord (Hunter), extra Trait (Imperium's Sword), Frost Weapon
Primaris Chaplain on Bike: Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Primaris Librarian: Chief Librarian, The Armor of Russ, Hero of the Chapter (+1 to casting, whatever it's called), Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Instincts Awoken
5 Intercessors: Auto Bolt Rifles, Chainsword
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts: Combat Knives
5 Bladeguard Veterans
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
6 Long Fangs: 4x MM, Grav Cannon, Chainsword on Sgt., WGPL with Chainsword/SS
2x Land Speeder Storm
Drop Pod
Impulsor: Shield Dome

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).


Unless I missed a FAQ, you get 3 CP back when your warlord is in either a DW or RW detatchment so you are starting with 9 CP. Which is nice .

On page 42 of the DA codex under 1st or 2nd company rules.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/27 03:03:08


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Vulshra wrote:
Tango Two, given you said melta bikes are probably better than eradicators, are looking to engage on all fonts, and need more 3 man squads why not a RW outrider detachment instead of a patrol to support the DW Vanguard? I think you could fit it relatively easily


A Ravenwing Outrider Detachment instead of a Greenwing Patrol would absolutely be a good option! Keep in mind, though, that min-Ravenwing Bike squads only have to lose one model to no longer count for Engage on All Fronts. Additionally, Engage on All Fronts locks you out of Stubborn Defiance - not a show stopper since we can take Oath but something to think about.

I went with the Patrol to get the Plasma Inceptors. If I was to get a chance to reboot my list for the same tourney Ezekiel would be left at home in exchange for an Interrogator Chaplain or Lazarus (for MW protection and not giving TSons free 15 points) and drop the Ancient. I would bump up the Deathwing Command Squad to 3.

I will likely go Ravenwing-heavy for my next tourney. Mobility is so important.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/27 03:21:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


 redux wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (Wise Orator), Paragon of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic: Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10 Deathwing Terminators: Power Sword/SB on Sgt., 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 3x TH/SS, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5 Relic Terminators: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, SB on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Outriders
2000 points, starts with 6 CP

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
No Force Org: 5 Voidsmen-At-Arms
Captain on Bike: Chapter Master, LC, SB, Warlord (Hunter), extra Trait (Imperium's Sword), Frost Weapon
Primaris Chaplain on Bike: Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Primaris Librarian: Chief Librarian, The Armor of Russ, Hero of the Chapter (+1 to casting, whatever it's called), Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Instincts Awoken
5 Intercessors: Auto Bolt Rifles, Chainsword
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts: Combat Knives
5 Bladeguard Veterans
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
6 Long Fangs: 4x MM, Grav Cannon, Chainsword on Sgt., WGPL with Chainsword/SS
2x Land Speeder Storm
Drop Pod
Impulsor: Shield Dome

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).


Unless I missed a FAQ, you get 3 CP back when your warlord is in either a DW or RW detatchment so you are starting with 9 CP. Which is nice .

On page 42 of the DA codex under 1st or 2nd company rules.

It's 9 from the detachments, but then I spend 3 more on extra traits/relics.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/27 03:47:24


Post by: Vulshra


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Funny that you mention bikes and Deathwing, Vulshra, because that's my latest bit of tech!

To elaborate, I just played a 2k point game vs. a friend earlier this evening. This was my list:
Spoiler:
Deathwing Vanguard Detachment
Interrogator-Chaplain: Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Master of Sanctity, Warlord (Wise Orator), Paragon of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic: Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Canticle of Hate
Bladeguard Ancient: Relic: Pennant of Remembrance
10 Deathwing Terminators: Power Sword/SB on Sgt., 2x CML/SB/Chainfist, 3x TH/SS, 4x SB/Chainfist, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 3x TH/SS (including Sgt.), 2x Twin LC
5 Relic Terminators: 5x LC, 3x Combibolter, Plasma Blaster, Reaper Autocannon
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Chainsword on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Bikers: 2x Chainsword, SB on Sgt., Attack Bike w/MM
3 Outriders
2000 points, starts with 6 CP

The whole premise of this list is that every single unit besides the characters has Objective Secured, and boy was it clutch in this game. My opponent was running Space Wolves, and he had the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
No Force Org: 5 Voidsmen-At-Arms
Captain on Bike: Chapter Master, LC, SB, Warlord (Hunter), extra Trait (Imperium's Sword), Frost Weapon
Primaris Chaplain on Bike: Master of Sanctity, Hero of the Chapter (Wise Orator), Benediction of Fury, Litanies: Mantra of Strength, Exhortation of Rage
Primaris Librarian: Chief Librarian, The Armor of Russ, Hero of the Chapter (+1 to casting, whatever it's called), Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Instincts Awoken
5 Intercessors: Auto Bolt Rifles, Chainsword
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Assault Intercessors: Thunder Hammer
5 Scouts: Combat Knives
5 Bladeguard Veterans
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
7 Wolf Guard: Jump Packs, 7x SS, 6x LC, TH on Pack Leader
6 Long Fangs: 4x MM, Grav Cannon, Chainsword on Sgt., WGPL with Chainsword/SS
2x Land Speeder Storm
Drop Pod
Impulsor: Shield Dome

I won't go over the whole game, and I don't remember the name of the mission (it did have sticky objectives, 5 of them) but my secondary choices were Stubborn Defiance, No Prisoners, and Assassination. His were Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and Warrior Pride (one of the SW ones). I ended up going first, and thanks to some decent luck with the dice and all my ObSec I managed to take the win (we called it at the end of turn 4 and talked it out from there). I got the full 14 for Stubborn Defiance, 7 for Assassinate, and I can't remember how many for No Prisoners. I also maxed the Primary. My opponent struggled to get Primary points early on and that cost him, as well as failing RND a couple of times (not sure he got anything for it at all), and he didn't get much for Engage either.

Having a lot of ObSec really was big. My list has 8 units with ObSec since I will almost always combat squad the big Deathwing brick (I did in this game); four of them are really hard to remove, and the other four are fast moving and can bring some ranged pain with the melta weapons. I feel like I can play okay into Custodes probably, but Tau would be a rough matchup, as would Crusher Stampede due to all the mortals (the main Achilles' heel of Deathwing). Being able to play the objectives well could help with any of those matchups, although Custodes do the ObSec plan better than we do (although nowadays their Bikes don't have it).


Curious on your thoughts on meltaguns vs plasma guns on bike squads. I would think WotDA (plus general theming) and range would make plasma the choice, but I see most people running meltaguns


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/27 04:59:48


Post by: ZergSmasher


Vulshra wrote:
Curious on your thoughts on meltaguns vs plasma guns on bike squads. I would think WotDA (plus general theming) and range would make plasma the choice, but I see most people running meltaguns

Weapons from the Dark Age is woefully inefficient on just a bike squad; you're spending 2CP to increase the damage on at most 6 shots (2 guns plus combi on the sarge). At least on a big blob of Black Knights or Inceptors or even Hellblasters it makes sense.

Currently Meltas get the nod mostly because they can spike very high on damage (especially in half range or less). Plasma, even buffed, doesn't do as much unless you have a lot of it.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/02/27 20:41:39


Post by: Vulshra


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Vulshra wrote:
Curious on your thoughts on meltaguns vs plasma guns on bike squads. I would think WotDA (plus general theming) and range would make plasma the choice, but I see most people running meltaguns

Weapons from the Dark Age is woefully inefficient on just a bike squad; you're spending 2CP to increase the damage on at most 6 shots (2 guns plus combi on the sarge). At least on a big blob of Black Knights or Inceptors or even Hellblasters it makes sense.

Currently Meltas get the nod mostly because they can spike very high on damage (especially in half range or less). Plasma, even buffed, doesn't do as much unless you have a lot of it.


Makes sense. I'm building out a quasi dreadwing take on ravenwing (i.e., more firepower than is reasonable), so I'm trying to optimize that. My concern is the ability to handle massed heavy infantry, as it is half the shots, but I suppose 10 multi meltas, 7 meltas, and 8 bks is probably enough to handle that


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/03/01 12:29:50


Post by: redux


 ZergSmasher wrote:

It's 9 from the detachments, but then I spend 3 more on extra traits/relics.

AH. I didn't read the list as closely as I should have. My bad. This thread get me to build an Interrogator Chaplain with the things. DW Smash Chaplain incoming!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/04/15 06:37:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


So, with the new Balance Dataslate, it looks like one of our good tricks is now gone, that being protecting a Ravenwing Talonmaster with a hidden Deathwing Command Squad. However, we now get the new Armor of Contempt rule, which actually makes our regular Terminators (and Relic ones) even more scary (although it does nothing whatsoever for Deathwing Knights). AoC actually makes Ravenwing a little better as well, as AP1/2 weapons were a major Achilles' heel of theirs IMO. Ravenwing Black Knights are looking real interesting between this and the recent points drop.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/04/15 14:28:42


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


It certainly ends one of our more distasteful tactics! Although I own three Talonmasters and use plenty of Deathwing Command Squads, I never used that combo because I want to be able to have a game in the future with my opponents!

It does seem that normal Terminators are in a better place. Lightning Claw Deathwing might be an even better pick now.

Talonmasters will struggle against power armour foes now - I usually bring them for crowd control but it is something to consider. High AP will be very important now if we see more power armour opponents on the field. Plasma Inceptors stay good for us and I concur that Black Knights will be more useful. Let's not get crazy, but maybe even Hellblasters will see the table.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/04/18 02:56:14


Post by: Timur


Armor of Contempt rule is leterally a free stormshield
40 termies with azzy look very strong


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/05/03 03:47:40


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


A Dark Angel player won a tourney this weekend with two 10 man Deathwing Knights squads and two 10 man Relic Terminators with combi-bolter and lightning claw backed up by three characters.

The DW Knights would not have benefited from AoC, but they would still hit real hard while the Relic Termies hold objectives, benefiting from AoC.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/05/03 06:32:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
A Dark Angel player won a tourney this weekend with two 10 man Deathwing Knights squads and two 10 man Relic Terminators with combi-bolter and lightning claw backed up by three characters.

The DW Knights would not have benefited from AoC, but they would still hit real hard while the Relic Termies hold objectives, benefiting from AoC.

While DW Knights don't benefit from AoC, they didn't exactly get weaker either other than the fact that some of their prey will benefit from it. I still wonder if they are a bit too expensive, but clearly somebody has figured out how to make them work well, so kudos to them! What three characters did they have backing them up? If I had to guess, I'd say an Interrogator-Chaplain, a Librarian, and a Ravenwing Apothecary, but I could very easily be wrong. The Ancient is still a good take for the sweet -1 damage (lets one squad pretend to be Death Guard for a turn).


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/05/03 08:43:07


Post by: princeyg


 ZergSmasher wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
A Dark Angel player won a tourney this weekend with two 10 man Deathwing Knights squads and two 10 man Relic Terminators with combi-bolter and lightning claw backed up by three characters.

The DW Knights would not have benefited from AoC, but they would still hit real hard while the Relic Termies hold objectives, benefiting from AoC.

While DW Knights don't benefit from AoC, they didn't exactly get weaker either other than the fact that some of their prey will benefit from it. I still wonder if they are a bit too expensive, but clearly somebody has figured out how to make them work well, so kudos to them! What three characters did they have backing them up? If I had to guess, I'd say an Interrogator-Chaplain, a Librarian, and a Ravenwing Apothecary, but I could very easily be wrong. The Ancient is still a good take for the sweet -1 damage (lets one squad pretend to be Death Guard for a turn).


Just watched Auspex Tactics video about this list and you sir are 3 for 3 on correct guesses for characters.

I dont own any relic termies yet, but now I'm certainly gonna get some, if only to add some different looking models to my force.

Still having great success with my Dark Talon and considering getting a second.

Anyone ever used the nephilim? looks kinda meh?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/05/07 06:01:42


Post by: ZergSmasher


Nephilim is pretty meh, and has only gotten worse with both the proliferation of -1 damage (really hurts its 2-damage guns) and now the advent of Armor of Contempt (which hurts AP-1 weapons the most). Dark Talon's guns are basically unaffected since the Hurricane Bolters are AP0 and the Rift Cannon deals damage as mortal wounds. It's probably only getting better as time goes on. AoC makes it a bit sturdier once the opponent decides to try to knock it down. On the subject of Relic Terminators, I think those are fast becoming a lot of Marine armies' bread and butter, as they really benefit from AoC and they are cheap. Honestly the thing that surprises me the most in that tournament-winning list (which I saw the full content of on Goonhammer) is the fact that the guy took 2 10-man Deathwing Knight squads. Those don't benefit from AoC at all, and in fact it can blunt their impact vs. other Marine armies. Plus they are expensive; I would have expected more regular Termies since they are ObSec and way cheaper. I guess that shows what I know!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/05/08 20:12:16


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I took a Deathwing list out for a fight on Saturday to help someone prepare for an upcoming themed 1500 point tourney - you need to have a named character as your warlord with no Lords of War or Titantic units allowed. They had Sisters with a mix of normal squads, Retributors, Paragons, some ladies with shields and halberds and three vehicles. I went with Belial, a Deathwing Apothecary, Deathwing Ancient with Banner of Repentance; two full Deathwing Squads, a two-man Deathwing Command Squad and a five-man Deathing Knights Squad. We played a hold 2 hold 3 hold more mission which meant I combat-squaded my full squads.

Armour of Contempt had a big impact for both of us, but it certainly made the Terminators more durable! The normal Terminators without Storm Shields were rarely saving on worse than a 4+ and they stood up to lots of -1 AP fire that would have normally chipped wounds off them. The DW Knights were still great due to how well they hit, but their 4++ was useful against the Multi-Meltas.

Chainfists for me have gone from niche to really good if you are facing power armour. I found that Tactical Doctrine was more or less pointless, but getting into Assault Doctrine was very useful.



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/02 00:02:57


Post by: Vulshra


Given AoC, the ponts drop, and the increased need for MW, are Dark Talons competitive now or still overpriced/too fragile


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/03 00:19:56


Post by: ZergSmasher


Vulshra wrote:
Given AoC, the ponts drop, and the increased need for MW, are Dark Talons competitive now or still overpriced/too fragile

I mean, they are better than they were for sure. They're still a bit pricy though.

In other news, I saw a cool Dark Angels list featured in today's Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article. What seemed so cool about the list is that it was pure Ravenwing rather than Deathwing. 2 Outriders, with a Talonmaster and Sammael leading them. Lots of Land Speeder types (3 Vengeances, 2 Storm Speeder Hammerstrikes, and one regular one with a MM), plus 3x3 MM Attack Bikes and 3x3 regular Bike units. And the basically-mandatory RW Apothecary. I absolutely LOVE this list; instead of the grindy defensive playstyle of a Deathwing list, it's more of an offensive powerhouse with lots of high-damage shooting.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/04 19:10:05


Post by: Vulshra


I'm very happy to see that style of play do well as it's very similar to how I build. A bit more melee and bikers and fewer speeders but I'm taking another look at land speeder vengeances

As an aside, from a lore perspective, is the crew count on a vengeance 3 or 4?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/18 15:17:26


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Some hot takes from the War Zone Nephilim reviews.

The changes to starting CPs will certainly have an effect. It was fairly common to take a Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and either a Ravenwing Outrider or a Dark Angels Patrol to have some balance. This will now be a big decision to make with half the CP available. This combines with the changes to Warlord Trait/Relic acquisition. I often spent five points on extra Detachments and additional Warlord Traits and Relics. This will be much tougher now. Looking at a list I took to a competitive event in February, I would start with 2 CP and thats only because of Azrael.

I have found that Deathwing can get by without many CPs, but that Ravenwing and Greenwing really need them. Azrael, always a good take, is even better now!

The changes to Secondaries is really big. To the Last was a common pick for Deathwing - its gone. Stubborn Defiance is still there but the objective cannot be in your deployment zone and you score points based on the round for each consecutive turn. Its not impossible for Obsec Deathwing to grab and hold a mid-field objective, but this is certainy tougher than before. I think it would be very hard for any non-Deathwing unit to pull it off. Oaths of Moment is still there and you can now take it with Stubborn Defiance again, but its tougher due to changes on holding the centre (only 1 VP and must be Core or Character). Death on the Wind is unchanged! Huzzah. Engage on All Fronts allows for units less than 3 to score as long as they started the game with 3 models. I think this places Ravenwing Bikes in a good place.

I think the changes to Secondaries will hurt some Deathwing builds that were based on To the Last and Stubborn Defiance. Ravenwing, though, look good and its not like Deathwing are nerfed too hard with this.

I've been leaning hard into Deathwing for the last season, and while I am not going to abandon them I will go back to my Ravenwing for a while.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/19 20:32:53


Post by: Vulshra


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Some hot takes from the War Zone Nephilim reviews.

The changes to starting CPs will certainly have an effect. It was fairly common to take a Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and either a Ravenwing Outrider or a Dark Angels Patrol to have some balance. This will now be a big decision to make with half the CP available. This combines with the changes to Warlord Trait/Relic acquisition. I often spent five points on extra Detachments and additional Warlord Traits and Relics. This will be much tougher now. Looking at a list I took to a competitive event in February, I would start with 2 CP and thats only because of Azrael.

I have found that Deathwing can get by without many CPs, but that Ravenwing and Greenwing really need them. Azrael, always a good take, is even better now!

The changes to Secondaries is really big. To the Last was a common pick for Deathwing - its gone. Stubborn Defiance is still there but the objective cannot be in your deployment zone and you score points based on the round for each consecutive turn. Its not impossible for Obsec Deathwing to grab and hold a mid-field objective, but this is certainy tougher than before. I think it would be very hard for any non-Deathwing unit to pull it off. Oaths of Moment is still there and you can now take it with Stubborn Defiance again, but its tougher due to changes on holding the centre (only 1 VP and must be Core or Character). Death on the Wind is unchanged! Huzzah. Engage on All Fronts allows for units less than 3 to score as long as they started the game with 3 models. I think this places Ravenwing Bikes in a good place.

I think the changes to Secondaries will hurt some Deathwing builds that were based on To the Last and Stubborn Defiance. Ravenwing, though, look good and its not like Deathwing are nerfed too hard with this.

I've been leaning hard into Deathwing for the last season, and while I am not going to abandon them I will go back to my Ravenwing for a while.


Changes to CP hurts, but the ability to take multiple faction-specific secondaries really helps RW. Death on the Wind, Engage, and Codex Warfare or Martial Interdiction makes getting 40-45 pts very doable most games.

Azreal can't help RW much, given he's infantry, but is even better for Greanwing now


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/20 06:13:58


Post by: Timur


Regarding Codex Warfare, is it possible to score 2pts by using Tactical Appraisal on a unit during second turn and later?

RAW it looks legal


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/20 17:40:54


Post by: Vulshra


Timur wrote:
Regarding Codex Warfare, is it possible to score 2pts by using Tactical Appraisal on a unit during second turn and later?

RAW it looks legal


I don't think so given it says "for your army" and it's still not active for the army, but if so it makes brilliant strategist an even better WLT

As an aside, having to pay for the first WLT and relic is a pain. I'm revisiting my list a little to cut back on a relic. I used to run both a master with 2 WLTs, champion and fury, and the heavenfall to be a beatstick backed up by a champion with the reliquary but I'm seriously reconsidering the reliquary. I still want the champion for martial interdiction sometimes. Combined with hidden agenda, i think it's a potent combo


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/22 16:21:00


Post by: Vulshra


With the new nephilim changes, RW BKs are even better now, and with force org slots being more limited, they seem very good for most competitive RW lists.

On the DW side, Death wing knights getting 5ppm cheeper is a good buff


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/23 02:50:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


Here's all the points changes, both DA-specific and Marines in general:
HQ:
Azrael: 160 (-10)
Ezekiel: 115 (-10)
Captain in Gravis Armor: 115 (-5)
Troops:
No Changes Whatsoever
Elites:
Reivers: No change to base model cost, grav chutes/grapnel launchers now 1 ppm (-1 ppm)
Deathwing Knights: 43 ppm (-4 ppm)
Ravenwing Black Knights: No change to base model cost, Corvus Hammers now free (-5 ppm)
Fast Attack:
Assault Squad: No change to base model cost, jump packs now free (-2 ppm)
Land Speeder Tornadoes: 70 ppm (-5 ppm)
Land Speeder Typhoons: 100 ppm (-10 ppm)
Outrider Squad: 45 ppm (-5 ppm)
Ravenwing Darkshroud: 120 (-10)
Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance: 110 (-10)
Heavy Support:
Centurion Devastator Squad: No change to base model cost, grav cannons now 10 ppm (-5 ppm), Heavy Bolters now 10 each (-5 ppw, -10 ppm), Lascannons now 15 each (-5 ppw, -10 ppm)
Eliminator Squad: No change to base model cost, Las Fusils now free (-5 ppm, same as BSR)
Firestrike Servo Turrets: 80 ppm (-10 ppm), Twin Las Talons now 30 ppm (-10 ppm)
Gladiator Lancer: 150 (-15)
Gladiator Reaper: 180 (-15)
Gladiator Valiant: 200 (-15)
Land Raider: 245 (-20)
Land Raider Crusader: 245 (-20)
Land Raider Redeemer: 245 (-20)
Predator Annihilator: 115 (-15)
Predator Destructor: 130 (-10)
Repulsor: 270 (-25)
Repulsor Executioner: 300 (-35)
Vindicator: 120 (-10)
Dedicated Transport:
Land Speeder Storm: 50 (-5)
Razorback: 100 (-10), Twin Assault Cannon 25 (+10)
Flyer:
Stormraven Gunship: 260 (-30)

My hot takes:
-Ravenwing did pretty well overall. Black Knights are pretty spicy at 35 ppm; the hammers should have been free from the beginning, and especially so now that AoC is a thing. Speeders of all types got a nice reduction (Storm Speeders were already doing okay in some builds and didn't need another drop, so it's okay that they didn't get one this time), and Outriders are at least playable at 135 per squad. Pity ATVs didn't get a drop; here's hoping they get CORE in the Balance Dataslate tomorrow (not holding my breath).
-GW seems to want us to take more tanks (not just us, all Marines). Problem is, even with points drops there are almost always better options. Land Raiders with AoC and the newly reduced costs are at least making me raise an eyebrow though.
-The flyers needed more reductions; the Nephilim and Dark Talon are nearly there, but still don't quite cut it (and now that they don't count for Engage they actually got an indirect nerf). The Stormraven is still trash even with the big reduction.
-Azrael might be a must-take in DA lists unless you are going Ravenwing; he gives CP just for showing up, and he actually got cheaper somehow. Ezekiel getting a cut as well was nice. Pity the other characters missed out; Asmodai just can't catch a break!
-AssCan Razorbacks are still paying for their perceived sins in early 8th edition. At least the HB and Twin Las versions got a little cheaper.
-Assault Marines having free jump packs is nice; other Marine chapters will get more out of them than DA will though.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/06/29 00:59:49


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Took an all Ravenwing list for a 2000 point game against Necrons. He had the Silent King and the Void Dragon so this was going to be tough sledding! The changes to CP really changed how I constructed my list and how it played. I cut back on some relics that I took before (the Reliquary and the Auspex) and I always found RW to be CP-hogs. Death on the Wind is still good, but the game was a bit of a disaster! Its not panic stations yet, but things have changed.

Reading the details of the new Secondaries, Deathwing-based lists do have to make some serious adjustments. With Stubborn Defiance requiring you to select an Objective outside your deployment zone it is basically impossible to score more than 10 VPs with a Deathwing list. Deathwing lists were riding on maxing out Stubborn Defiance and Too the Last. Well, not anymore!

I'll try a Greenwing list next time.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/08/20 01:23:50


Post by: ZergSmasher


A Dark Angels list took the win in a tournament in Colombia last weekend:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-global-spectacular-pt-2/

Basically kind of an MSU version of the ever-popular Deathwing terminator spam build, with Belial instead of Azrael (interesting choice there). Nice to see that DA can still win events, at any rate.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2022/09/08 00:56:01


Post by: ZergSmasher


This week, two Dark Angels lists made top 5 finishes, both of them Ravenwing lists, and one of them won their event! Here's the Goonhammer link:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-nova-reanimation/

Basically both of the covered Ravenwing lists use Sammael, a Talonmaster, plus at least one full brick of Black Knights and 3 Storm Speeder Thunderstrikes. Looks like the Thunderstrikes are the real deal, folks! I've been a fan of them for a while despite not having run one yet (which has more to do with the fact that I've been playing my other armies for the last couple of years). Nice to see the boys in black putting up good finishes instead of just more Deathwing spam.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/01/05 15:25:28


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Its been a rough season for the Dark Angels...Let's see if the new Balance Dataslate and warzone season will change things.

The changes to Doctrines will certainly help Ravenwing. We can stay in Devastator for the whole game if we want, which is a big boost for the Ravenwing. This could also help with some Secondaries.

Ravenwing units got price cuts. My last 2000 point Ravenwing list is now sitting just above 1700 points. Some highlights:

Outriders are now 35 points each
Ravenwing Bikes basically get wargear for free (a multimelta attack bike in the squad will be +10 points, all others are free)
Ravenwing Black Knights are now 30 points each
Attack Bikes with Multimeltas are 50 points each

Losing Armour of Contempt will hurt most units, but at the same time many of our targets also benefited from it.

Deathwing now seem to have free wargear, so they have also come down depending how you used to load them out. Removal of AoC means that Stormshields are back in business! Now everyone who ripped theirs off can put them back on again.

We will need to see some games in the new season with the new detachment to see how this will all play out. I am optimisitic (ish)...


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/01/06 02:51:37


Post by: ZergSmasher


Deathwing with free CMLs? Yes please! I fully expect to see some lists with 50+ Terminators in them (330 points for 10, 5 such units is 1650 points so room for characters on top). Now that AoC is gone it could be worth it to stay in Tactical doctrine in some games for the AP-1 on the storm bolters. Ravenwing gonna be LIT with all the cheaper bikes out there. 20 Black Knight lists will almost certainly be a thing. And Greenwing certainly isn't being left out, no sirree! Plasma Inceptors are now 40 ppm, which is crazy good! Hellblasters are still expensive, just less so than they were before, so Inceptors are gonna get the nod there I think. Devastators get free weapons that aren't Multi-Meltas (and those are cheaper now), so maybe those could be okay as well, and Eradicators can and should take any upgrades they can because again, they're free. Even the special characters like Azrael got cheaper (how?!). Dark Angels are gonna really be able to swing for the fences now, in spite of losing Armor of Contempt, and there will probably be multiple viable builds, so it's a good day to be a Son of the Lion!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/01/06 10:07:41


Post by: addnid


Free watchers of the dark for every termi squad ? yikes !


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/01/11 23:21:40


Post by: ZergSmasher


Nasty list idea I just came up with for the new season:
Spoiler:
Arks of Omen detachment
Sammael
Talonmaster: Warlord, Warlord Trait (Rites of War), Relic (Arbiter's Gaze)
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, extra trait (Selfless Healer)
Ravenwing Champion: Chapter Champion, extra trait (Imperium's Sword), extra relic (Blade of Triumph)
10 Black Knights
10 Black Knights
10 Black Knights
4 Bikes: 2x Meltagun, Combi-melta
3 Outriders
3 Attack Bikes: 3x Multimelta
Land Speeder Vengeance
Storm Speeder Thunderstrike
1995 points

Mostly theorycrafting as I don't have anywhere near that many Black Knights, but it seems strong to me. I do wonder if it would be worth taking the redeploy trait instead of Rites of War, but I figured being able to make the Black Knights Obsec would be very useful. I also considered an iteration of this that used a Primaris Bike Chaplain, but ultimately switched to the Champion to save a few points.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/02/16 04:47:12


Post by: ZergSmasher


Two Dark Angels lists played each other for the win at the Beachhead Brawl this past weekend, here's the Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article that has that game as one of the featured matchups:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-darkest-timeline-pt-1/

One of the lists is much more Ravenwing focused, with only a single Deathwing brick to provide some durable bodies on an objective, plus some Infiltrators to possibly open up Stubborn Defiance as an option. The other list (Mani Cheema's) goes harder on Deathwing and takes Speeder Tornadoes and Vengeances for speedy threats (plus two Talonmasters). Mani's version was the winner in this particular mirror match.

Based on this and other recent articles, it seems like a mix of Deathwing and Ravenwing, with occasional Infiltrators as tech pieces, is the way to play DA in Arks. I'm looking forward to giving a list like these a try one of these days.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/02/20 16:49:40


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I am in a small League right now (a branch of the Ontario one) playing Dark Angels. We've done one round, and my list two weeks ago was Azrael, Talonmaster, full Deathwing squad, Ravenwing Apothecary, full Infiltrator squad, full Attack Bike squad with multi-meltas, an MSU Tactical squad, a small Bike Squad, ten Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators, three Eradicators and Devastators with Lascannons.

I took the Infiltrators to have the option of maxing out Stubborn Defiance and took the heavy support to lean into Codex Warfare. The Deathwing were there for Oath of Moment and control the centre. I faced Astra Militarum with plenty of tanks including a Baneblade but no Karskin. The design of the list worked, although Lascannons are still bad...As an aside, Baneblades are actually OK now if not optimal. T9 is no joke and they have some tricks to reduce damage. Anyhoo.

The Talonmaster was great. Armour of Contempt really hurt his firepower before, but being able to stay in Devastator Doctrine and no AoC makes it much better. Also allows for some Codex Warfare points when facing hordes of infantry squads. I am taking two in my next list. I had left the Stormshields on my Deathwing during the AoC time and I am glad that I did so.

Dark Angels have indeed benefited mightily from Arks of Omen. I am sticking with mixed-wing for now, but I'll try out all Ravenwing or all Deathwing in a bit.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/03/09 07:32:25


Post by: ZergSmasher


Finally got a game in with my Dark Angels for the first time in over 2 years. And yes, it seems all the talk about them being strong is justified. I managed to win vs. my friend (who is a pretty good player) and his Grey Knights. My Black Knights didn't do a whole lot, mostly because I misplayed them and was too cagey with them early on, but my 2 Talonmasters absolutely put in work, and so did my single (combat-squadded) Deathwing unit. The sheer speed of Ravenwing units makes them crazy powerful and difficult for your opponent to hide from, and I was able to use that to my advantage. I even got to launch Sammael like a cruise missile, where he shot down one character and then charged and killed a second. A GMNDK put him down for his insolence, but that was still a fun play that swung the game in my favor. My Infiltrators felt good just camping a side objective; my opponent couldn't deep strike close to them to take the objective away from them, and he couldn't walk over and kill them without exposing his units to my Ravenwing's counterattack potential. They are a clutch unit that would really be good to have for the Daemons and GSC matchups, but honestly anyone who relies on reserves is going to be frustrated by them.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/03/20 04:35:16


Post by: ZergSmasher


I just played my Dark Angels in a GT this weekend, and was one of 3 DA players in said event (there would have been 4, but one guy dropped). It was my first Arks of Omen tournament, and it was player placed terrain. My list was the following:
Spoiler:

Arks of Omen Detachment (Mandatory slot: Fast Attack)
Sammael
Talonmaster: Warlord, Warlord Trait (Rites of War), Relic (Arbiter's Gaze)
Talonmaster: Hero of the Chapter (The Imperium's Sword), Relic of the Chapter (Heavenfall Blade)
5 Infiltrators: Helix Gauntlet
Ravenwing Apothecary: Chief Apothecary, Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer)
10 Ravenwing Black Knights
10 Deathwing Terminators: 5x TH/SS, 3x SB/Chainfist, 2x SB/Chainfist/CML, Watcher in the Dark
5 Deathwing Terminators: 1x TH/SS, 3x SB/Powerfist, 1x SB/Powerfist/CML
3 Attack Bikes: 3x Multimelta
Land Speeder Tornado: Multimelta, Assault Cannon
Land Speeder Tornado: Multimelta, Assault Cannon
Land Speeder Vengeance: Heavy Bolter
Storm Speeder Thunderstrike

Very quick rundown of my 5 games:

Game 1
Opponent: Space Marines (Iron Hands)
Two mainly shooting armies facing off; no matter what it promised to be a bloodbath. I couldn't hide everything perfectly well and ended up losing the entire unit of Black Knights to my opponent's shooting on turn 1 (he got first turn). I still had enough to counterattack very hard, but my counterattack just utterly fizzled. My opponent was also in awe of just how terrible my dice were. In desperation to kill SOMETHING by the end of turn 1, I charged my melee-specced Talonmaster into an opposing Land Speeder Tornado, which overwatched with the Iron Hands special strat and brought the TM to 1 wound. The TM spiked it of course, but it exploded and took the TM with it. It all went downhill from there and I lost with a final score of like 42 to 90-something. Probably one of the most frustrating games of 40k I've ever played; even my opponent said he's never seen worse dice luck in a game.

Game 2
Opponent: Death Guard (Ferrymen)
Despite going second (which I wanted) and my opponent moving towards me, I just couldn't kill enough stuff fast enough, and probably wasn't aggressive enough to pull it out, although I did almost catch up in points. I let myself get bottled up in my own deployment zone for two turns, which hurt my chances. It ended up being close, with me getting 67 points to my opponent's 75.

Game 3:
Opponent: Space Marines (Iron Hands)
My opponent was a fairly new player who was running a not-terribly-optimized IH list with 2 Redemptors and 2 Leviathan dreads in it, as well as 2 Whirlwinds. He placed his terrain fairly poorly and deployed too much of his stuff in the open, which allowed me to get easy shots on a lot of it. He still made a game of it for the first couple of turns, but it snowballed massively in my favor after that, and the final score of 97-33 shows it. I gave the guy a few good pointers about how to leverage player-placed terrain better for his next games, but I think he still came in dead last (of the players who stuck it out for all 5 rounds) at the end of the event.

Game 4:
Opponent: Astra Militarum (Born Soldiers)
My opponent was running a tank-heavy list with 4 Russes, a Russ TC, a Rogal Dorn, 3 Kasrkin units, and 3 Mortar squads (plus some other stuff). I ended up getting first turn, and absolutely pulverized his TC with my Attack Bikes. It exploded and damaged all of his plasma Russes. My various speeders' shooting took out one of said plasma Russes, and it also exploded, dealing damage to one of the other two. My Black Knights took out another one of those (that one didn't blow up). My opponent wasn't really able to get back in the game, as all of my Ravenwing stuff had advanced and thus had a 4++ against shooting, and the rest of the game was mostly me grinding him down (on turn 4, my big Terminator brick took down the Dorn and that's where my opponent just conceded). The final score was like 97-40 or something like that.

Game 5:
Opponent: Leagues of Votann (Greater Thurian League)
I ended up playing the ringer for this one; my assigned opponent had already faced both of the other two DA players and just conceded before we even set up (he was running Blood Angels, and he wasn't salty or a poor sport or anything, he just really didn't fancy playing against Dark Angels for a third time in one event). This game ended up being an extremely close game that saw me get the win by a single point (82-81), and I would have lost if my opponent had remembered more of his rules. I should have been more conservative at the beginning and made him come to me instead of spreading out early on.

So I went 3-2 for the weekend, which is actually pretty good for me (I have a long history of going either 2-3 or 2-2-1 at GTs). I really need to practice more, as I made some silly mistakes that could be eliminated if I'd just tighten up my game. I do have a few takeaways about my list and DA in general:
-Talonmasters are amazing and probably one of the best units in the game, but don't bother tooling one up for melee. Imperium's Sword and the Heavenfall Blade just didn't pay off at all for the whole event. Take 2 of them and just use them for shooting/reroll support/traits.
-Sammael is a great support piece. His rerolls were very clutch, especially when he'd give one unit full rerolls and then fly over and give a different unit reroll 1's with his aura. His melee capability is nice and can snipe out an exposed character, but only do this near the end of a game when you won't need his rerolls as much.
-Storm Speeder Thunderstrikes are amazing. I only had one and wish I'd had a second; the long-range firepower that hits on 2's is very nice, especially if facing T8+ targets.
-In a few games, I combat-squadded the big Terminator brick, reserved the shooty ones (keeping the hammers on the board) and used Deathwing Assault on the shooty half when they dropped from reserves. It's a neat trick, but definitely not something you'll need to do most of the time. Keeping the whole big squad together worked better for me. I do think it could be worth keeping a few guns on Terminators rather than going all-hammers for certain matchups though.
-My Black Knights absolutely were my workhorse unit in every game other than the first. Those guys put in WORK! I highly recommend at least a single unit. Against some opponents it could even be worth pregame moving them forwards with the strat (if you get first turn) to give them a much better threat range, although I never did this.
-Being able to Advance and still shoot is a clutch ability that should never be underestimated. Sure you take a -1 penalty to your shooting, but Sammael can offset that with his rerolls on one unit, and if your opponent is in dense cover or otherwise has a -1 penalty already you don't lose anything. That 4++ against shooting will save your valuable models too.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/11 02:19:37


Post by: ZergSmasher


GW just dropped the full datasheet for Lion El'Jonson today:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/10/put-the-forces-of-chaos-to-the-sword-with-free-rules-for-lion-eljonson/
The TL;DR of it pretty much is that he's a crazy blender that will turn most things he touches into fine pink mist, but if he runs into something he can't easily shift (which funnily enough includes Deathwing in the mirror match), he will likely get punted into the sun as he's relying on a 4++ and 9 wounds to protect him.

Personally my idea is to run him as more of a buff-bot/area denial tool; he doesn't want to be on the front lines as any decent shooting will drop him like a sack of wheat. Play him behind some Terminators, preferably with a couple of Talonmasters in tow (they benefit from his awesome reroll aura as it affects Characters in addition to Core!), and be ready to leverage his unique warlord trait to heroic intervene with some Deathwing. His own combat potential will deter any but the most determined opposition. Deep striking him is definitely a trap; a 9 inch charge even with rerolls is only successful like 42% or so of the time. Maybe if you bring along a Chaplain to give the buff to charge distance it becomes a bit more reliable, but that's even more points. I definitely think Lion is something we can build around, but he's most definitely not a blunt instrument we can just send up the middle and win games with.

What are other people's thoughts about running our newly-arrived Primarch?


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/11 10:37:43


Post by: Insularum


He needs support, both screening and other characters. Deepstriking with a chaplain to get the canticle of hate speed boost makes the rerollable charge quite reliable, deathwing bodyguard to make up for his squishyness, and a librarian to mind worm the biggest combat threat to him (fights last > fights first).

I'd consider going all out and taking too much support, to make killing the Primarch a distraction while the supporters win the game. Something like this:

Johnson
Phobos librarian (mind worm, righteous repugnance)
Terminator Chaplain (canticle of hate)
Infiltratators (to screen out deep striking behind johnson)
2x Deathwing terminators (any flavour, 1 unit stays with Primarch, the other charges off with the chaplain in a different direction)

The rest of the army is guns and obsec



For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/11 11:24:41


Post by: Brickfix


Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/11 12:05:59


Post by: Insularum


Brickfix wrote:
Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)
The wound on 4+ only applies to infantry, like Guilliman he is a monster type unit so gets nothing.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/11 13:07:50


Post by: Brickfix


 Insularum wrote:
Brickfix wrote:
Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)
The wound on 4+ only applies to infantry, like Guilliman he is a monster type unit so gets nothing.


Damn, I think I overlooked this before. Thanks!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/11 15:39:03


Post by: whembly


Brickfix wrote:
 Insularum wrote:
Brickfix wrote:
Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)
The wound on 4+ only applies to infantry, like Guilliman he is a monster type unit so gets nothing.


Damn, I think I overlooked this before. Thanks!

He does get Grim Resolve (I think that's what it's called).

So, he gets that +1 to attack when charged/is charged...etc... to be even more blendery.

A bladeguard unit + Lion does make for some serious area of denial as ZergSmasher suggested.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/12 02:25:48


Post by: bullyboy


I’m thinking of running a Judiciar near him in case he gets charged by a serious threat. If forced to fight last, Lion will kill most anything that he gets to swing at. Will add some terminators, some obsec infantry, and Ravenwing support for AT.


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/13 13:31:31


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Well, the last 9th Edition Balance Dataslate just took away the ability of Deathwing to have wound rolls against them always fail on a 1-3.

With a very short line of text they just wiped out an army...

Codex Warfare now only grants a max of 5 in each Doctrine, which makes sense. This, combined with the changes to Deathwing, will certainly knock Dark Angels down.

Ravenwing can still function, so perhaps we'll ride into the sunset of 9th Edition on that!


For the Lion! Dark Angels 9th Edition Codex. @ 2023/04/13 14:38:11


Post by: Gibblets


Is there any good Ravenwing list? I've got some blacknights some bikes and too many landspeeders (which are awful with how terrain heavy my tables are.)