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Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 21:23:59


Post by: bat702


if the spacemarines got all this sweet new weapons, armor, and primaris marines, it makes sense for other imperium of man to also get some new/old stuff? One idea I have is for volkite weapons to make a resurgence, would also be sweet to see those fully armored guard soldiers back (dont remember what they were called), Id love to see like a fully capsulated guardsman (hopefully elite too) packing maybe chem flamer weapons like the chemical flamer hellhound, they would need to be fully incapsulated to fire the weapons without getting sick (so you wouldnt just be able to use them in special weapon squads) would be kind of like orc burna boyz.

Don't worry tho guys, I'm sure games-workshop wont release a new astra militarum codex until atleast 2025, so they have plenty of time to get creative?

also please list any ideas you might have for new astra-militarum tech/units


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 21:57:44


Post by: Pyroalchi


I personally would fancy (from a modelling POV, not out of a competetive necessity) some small, light tank variant. While the Carnodon kind of fills the niche, he is still almost as big as a Leman Russ. So more something like the Siegfried tank mentioned with DKOK. 2/3 or even 1/2 the size of an LR with twin Heavy Bolters.

Another fancy (and kind of fluffy) thing would be a minethrower like the German Skorpion.
Edit: a while ago I did a brainstorming on potential rules for that:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/792213.page

More of an equipment "invention" would be a either a single use Skystrike missile as alternative to the hunter killer missile or a multiuse AA weapon as alternative heavy weapon for infantry. At least I would find the option of dedicated Flak outside of the Hydra interesting


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 22:09:24


Post by: mrFickle


Why don’t other 40K races experience significant technological and tactical evolutions.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 22:20:02


Post by: Flinty


You mean like the Tau and the Necrons?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 22:22:20


Post by: bat702


pretty sure only the Tau is evolving still, the necrons just unearthing more stuff?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 22:59:14


Post by: alextroy


mrFickle wrote:
Why don’t other 40K races experience significant technological and tactical evolutions.
Let's look:

* Aeldari: The race that has been dying for 10K years who had basically perfected their technology before The Fall
* Chaos Daemons: Timeless entities of the Warp that have no need for technology
* Chaos Space Marines: Transhuman super soldiers who have sold their souls to warp entities and new seem more interested in sorcery and daemons then technology
* Genestealer Cults: A parasite race hiding within humanity
* Necrons: A race of ancient 'robots' who are only now awakening from a slumber hundreds of millennia long
* Orks: A race of intuitive tinkerers who have all types of unexplainable tech
* T'au Empire: An upstart race constantly upgrading their technology
* Tyranids: A biotechnological hive race that can control it's own evolution in place of technology

Yeah. I'm not sure why either



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 23:17:46


Post by: Gadzilla666


 alextroy wrote:
* Chaos Space Marines: Transhuman super soldiers who have sold their souls to warp entities and new seem more interested in sorcery and daemons then technology

Congratulations! You've just described 5 (maybe 6) of the 9 Legions. But hey, a F+ or D isn't too bad for someone who gets all of his information from the Loyalist Scum codex.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/14 23:40:20


Post by: warmaster21


Chaos daemons abosolutely use technology. they have an entire industry involving demons bartering slavery to be bound to machine bodies to kill more things in the hopes of reforging their destroyed bodies quicker.

and for some asinine reason khorne forgot how to smith armor as good as power armor for their demons, while also being neigh invulnerable to psychic powers.

its about time the chaos gods get with the times.


But to the topic at hand: Id love to see storm troopers come back to regular guard, like i get tempestus stupidus, the need for expanding out special forces into the guard but bring back generic storm troopers, kasrkin, etc

personally I think vehicles across 40k need a huge redesign to allow space for light, medium, and heavy vehicles/tanks but to make something like that work would require a complete rules revision of the entire game.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 00:35:26


Post by: AngryAngel80


I'd like some better more soulful units, like rough riders to come back, maybe a dual kit with actually ability and options. I mean they made cyber horse guys why not Guard horse guys ?

We need some most tasty options in Fast Attack as is we have the hell hound variants and Sentinels. While I love sentinels, and hell hounds are alright it just feels pretty dull atm. Gimmie my horse peoples please.

Also, make a regular 40k kit that is like an in between the Baneblade and the Russ, ya know, like a Malcador but in a plastic kit and in the main rules, we got the kids and Big Daddy why not some older brothers ?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 00:52:55


Post by: kurhanik


 warmaster21 wrote:



But to the topic at hand: Id love to see storm troopers come back to regular guard, like i get tempestus stupidus, the need for expanding out special forces into the guard but bring back generic storm troopers, kasrkin, etc

personally I think vehicles across 40k need a huge redesign to allow space for light, medium, and heavy vehicles/tanks but to make something like that work would require a complete rules revision of the entire game.



Honestly with stormtroopers the rules for Scions work overall, and the only real fix that is needed is to let them have doctrines when in a regiment. While they aren't a 1:1 match exactly, Stormtroopers, Kasrkin, and Scions all fill the same basic role (4+ save, 3+ BS, hellguns, alternate deployment). It was kind of sad when in 8th it was decided that you needed to take a special stormtrooper detachment to get actual doctrines on them, especially when said detachment only has a maximum of 4 units to get the doctrine bonus (stormtrooeprs, command squads, officers, and taurox prime).

Even if GW insists on keeping them separate, just allowing the player to pick a stormtrooper doctrine for their units under that keyword in a regular guard detachment could work. For example, a Valhallan army that has 3 squads of Scions in the detachment that has the Kaplan Eagle (or whatever the exact name of the unit is called) doctrine.

That said, if they brought back the models for 3rd edition Stormtroopers, I'd be all over it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 09:33:51


Post by: ccs


I want:
RT era human bombs to return.
Rough Riders on horse.
Rough Riders on bikes.
a mix & match rules system for making & equipping ab-humans


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 09:52:54


Post by: harlokin


 alextroy wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Why don’t other 40K races experience significant technological and tactical evolutions.
Let's look:

* Aeldari: The race that has been dying for 10K years who had basically perfected their technology before The Fall

Yeah. I'm not sure why either



I'm just being pedantic, but most of the Drukhari tech is post Fall.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 10:00:30


Post by: endlesswaltz123


ccs wrote:
I want:
RT era human bombs to return.
Rough Riders on horse.
Rough Riders on bikes.
a mix & match rules system for making & equipping ab-humans


Absolutely zero chance of this happening... Someone would turn it into a PR s***storm from outside the hobby once they caught wind of it, most likely from someone unhappy within the hobby, and I think it would just be a bit un-tasteful personally.

Thematically, it makes sense, penal legions that have a suicide vest etc but yeah, no chance.

I think there is so much scope in the guard for variation without making brand new units. Veterens with an engineering theme, veterans that are catachan devils esq, heavily armoured veterans with hellguns for karskin that are similar but different to scions and have different loadout options and special rules such as deployment... And that's just veterans, think about standard guard squads with a proper regimental theme (including diverse kits).

Guard IMO do not need brand new units, they just need the potential of their current units to be released.

Though, rough riders were cool and I'd love to have them back. Especially the Attilans along with Krieg and Tallarn varieties.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 10:10:02


Post by: Togusa


I don't really want to see a major leap forward for guard.

I'd be okay with a couple of new spiffy weapons mounted on Leman Russ, like conversion beamers, Volkite cannons or the like.

What I really want to see is the bikers from the GSC get guard versions. Catachan Delta Force bikers would be amazing.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 10:12:34


Post by: Stormonu


I'd like to see:

- Non-horse cavalry; something wild and somewhat monstrous like big cats or the recent Admech cavalry
- Bikes; like the atalan jackals, but in guard uniform
- FAV-like vehicle, lightly armored with a couple of HWS weapons attached
- Recon vehicle; like a WW2 Greyhound, fast, lightly armored with an Autocannon or Missile Launcher as its primary weapon and a defensive stubber
- Light tank; something like a Stuart with moderate armor an Autocannon or two in the turret and a defensive stubber in the hull
- MBT; the Leman Russ is mostly a medium tank, I'd like something with heavier armor and weapons that fills the gap in size and firepower between the LRBT and the Baneblade.
- Dog teams; one guardsmen and bunch of dobermens or shepard-like augmented animals
- Return of the Last Chancers (a customizable Elite unit made up of Veterans; could all have special weapons and at least one heavy weapon)
- Penal squads - armed with stub pistols and could also be armed with explosive collars/explosive vests
- A squat machinist/engineer and entourage (of squats, not servitors)
- Exoskeleton suits; like on Edge of Tomorrow



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 10:19:28


Post by: Dolnikan


I really don't think that we need more units, we just need our current roster to actually be viable and to see some old units return.

But if there are to be new units, I would prefer a focus on the ww1 style side. So, something like gas canisters that can be deployed and that slowly spread poison gas (like an expanding aura or the like), emplaced artillery, field fortifications that actually work, penal legions, that sort of thing.

But most of all, I'd just love to see a way to keep units like command and heavy weapon squads alive without them being shot to bits as soon as they expose themselves. Perhaps some sort of screening by other infantry...


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 10:33:33


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Stormonu wrote:
I'd like to see:

- Non-horse cavalry; something wild and somewhat monstrous like big cats or the recent Admech cavalry
- Bikes; like the atalan jackals, but in guard uniform
- FAV-like vehicle, lightly armored with a couple of HWS weapons attached
- Recon vehicle; like a WW2 Greyhound, fast, lightly armored with an Autocannon or Missile Launcher as its primary weapon and a defensive stubber
- Light tank; something like a Stuart with moderate armor an Autocannon or two in the turret and a defensive stubber in the hull
- MBT; the Leman Russ is mostly a medium tank, I'd like something with heavier armor and weapons that fills the gap in size and firepower between the LRBT and the Baneblade.
- Dog teams; one guardsmen and bunch of dobermens or shepard-like augmented animals
- Return of the Last Chancers (a customizable Elite unit made up of Veterans; could all have special weapons and at least one heavy weapon)
- Penal squads - armed with stub pistols and could also be armed with explosive collars/explosive vests
- A squat machinist/engineer and entourage (of squats, not servitors)
- Exoskeleton suits; like on Edge of Tomorrow


The recon vehicles are Scout Sentinels
The light tank is a Salamander, a Forgeworld model. Essentially an open topped and turretless Chimera.
Leman Russes are MBTs, they're described as being very heavily armoured. In fact, they err more towards the heavy tank side of the scale than medium. But they're definitely MBTs.
Leman Russes were actually very impressive vehicles in previous editions, but vehicle rules really nerfed them down very hard.

The problem with IG imo is that they've been left behind by the scale of the game. Space Marines are pretty much the baseline, IG are one of only a few factions that relies on S3 weaponary on basic infantry.
And given that IG infantry now is so weak that they'll never be suited for anything but chaff really, there is limited scope for what you want to do.

I really want to play a sort of mechanised Imperial Guard force. Unloading in the enemy's face to bring devastating firepower. But Imperial Guard can't do that. They can't bring the firepower for one squad of Imperial Guard to be anything other than throwing a damp sponge at a unit of Astartes and they're squishy enough to be removed with a casual flick of the Astarter's bolter.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 10:39:06


Post by: Not Online!!!


Considering unlike astartes, most factions can't drive up and disembark into the face of an enemy, no faction can infact play propperly mechanised.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 10:39:20


Post by: endlesswaltz123


 Dolnikan wrote:
I really don't think that we need more units, we just need our current roster to actually be viable and to see some old units return.

But if there are to be new units, I would prefer a focus on the ww1 style side. So, something like gas canisters that can be deployed and that slowly spread poison gas (like an expanding aura or the like), emplaced artillery, field fortifications that actually work, penal legions, that sort of thing.

But most of all, I'd just love to see a way to keep units like command and heavy weapon squads alive without them being shot to bits as soon as they expose themselves. Perhaps some sort of screening by other infantry...


So much can be done really to make the guard thematically more guard like without adding new units, imagine a stratagem for sort of a box barrage around a unit(s) in the centre of the board that the enemy can enter but takes auto hits if it chooses to do so and has it's movement impeded.

I love the gas canister idea but it's a bit too similar to what the DG do now.

Conscripts can be penal legion, just have it as an option with different rules, where they have to always move forward towards an objective, like choosing it as an upgrade (or ideally a side grade that doesn't cost points).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 11:10:25


Post by: Pyroalchi


 kirotheavenger wrote:

The light tank is a Salamander, a Forgeworld model. Essentially an open topped and turretless Chimera.


I think the Salamander has gone to legends unfortunatly (but I'm not a hundred % sure. Just remember that I looked at my own sadly when the last updated came).
Nonetheless (again from a modelling perspective) I would like to have a smaller tracked/wheeled vehicle. I mean: the Chimera Chassis, LR and Carnodon are all almost the same size and the Sentinel is a walker. When they were still around the Tauros assault vehicle and Tauros Venator kind of filled the niche, but they are gone. I think just for the looks something like a modern Fennek or a tankette like the Wiesel or the M50 Ontos would be interesting. Regarding the latter: a cheap platform with 6x Hunter Killer Missile he can fire all at once might even have some situational use as Alpha strike threat.

But I agree to the general sentiment that a good start would be to get our "lost" Units back. Rough Rider, non-Scion heavy infantry, Salamanders, Tauri and other legendized vehicles.


Regarding the general "new units to expand guard" I would prefer (read: my personal taste) if that would not come along as Belisarius Cawl styled really new tech, but more "less known STCs" that fit the look of what we have.
And even if I'm aware how difficult that would be to implement I would love the guard to have special Sapper vehicles/options like modern military that would be unique as I would not see them fitting in other (imperial) armies:
1. a mine layer (throw mine-tokens maybe 8'' wide. Mortal wounds if a unit touches them) Additionally/alternativly: Special weapons teams etc. can carry anti tank mines (place somewhere, d3-d6 MW if something drives over it)
2. a bridge layer (would only be relevant on reaaaaaly huge boards but cool nonetheless)
3. some bull dozer like machine that can draw trenches really fast, create terrain impassible for vehicles and/or destroy building-like terrain. (if something like the Hades can cross subterrain within battlerounds Building a trenchline should be possible...)
4. a Mineflay upgrade instead of the bulldozer for vehicles that does better damage in CC and removes mines
5. Infantry order "dig in". Instead of shooting the unit builds foxholes etc. and gains cover as long as it doesn't move (but can shoot the next round). Or gain a -1 to hit as long as they stay in their foxholes
6. Sentinels with the option to take massive smoke launchers instead of weapons. They can lay smoke screens. Might be simulated by giving -1 to hit for some vehicles or instead placing 3-5 "smoke token" in a line on the battlefield that block line of sight for 1-3 rounds.
7. real turret emplacements as fortification basically just a LR/Baneblade turret on a concrete base. Immobile and less wounds that the real deal, but cheaper.
8. "minefield" or "Dragons teeth/czech hedgehog" or "barbed wire" as fortifications. Take x empty 25 mm bases for a fair price tag and place them on the battlefield. They are impassible for infantry/cavalry (barbed wire), vehicles (dragons teeth/czech hedgehog) or cause mortal wounds (minefield)

I think all that would add to the "conventional army" feeling of guard. But a I said: I mainly look on the visual/cool to build site of things and have no clue if that would make playing guard any more effective.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 13:08:46


Post by: Dolnikan


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:
I really don't think that we need more units, we just need our current roster to actually be viable and to see some old units return.

But if there are to be new units, I would prefer a focus on the ww1 style side. So, something like gas canisters that can be deployed and that slowly spread poison gas (like an expanding aura or the like), emplaced artillery, field fortifications that actually work, penal legions, that sort of thing.

But most of all, I'd just love to see a way to keep units like command and heavy weapon squads alive without them being shot to bits as soon as they expose themselves. Perhaps some sort of screening by other infantry...


So much can be done really to make the guard thematically more guard like without adding new units, imagine a stratagem for sort of a box barrage around a unit(s) in the centre of the board that the enemy can enter but takes auto hits if it chooses to do so and has it's movement impeded.

I love the gas canister idea but it's a bit too similar to what the DG do now.

Conscripts can be penal legion, just have it as an option with different rules, where they have to always move forward towards an objective, like choosing it as an upgrade (or ideally a side grade that doesn't cost points).


Absolutely. The guard has units, it's just a matter of getting them to work in a cool way that doesn't reduce all of them to useless chaff. I want the ordinary guardsmen being capable of carrying the army in some way, but right now, they're just far too incapable compared to the much heavier infantry they will constantly have to face.

But generally, it feels like the game has moved far beyond the kind of game where that's possible with all the superheroes, extremely powerful vehicles and ultrasuperelites running around.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 13:20:38


Post by: Lord Damocles


Rough Riders
Heavy Mortar/ Thud Gun batteries
Snipers as lone guys
Assault squads/platoons
Chimeradon/Chimerax


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 13:23:56


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Dolnikan wrote:


Absolutely. The guard has units, it's just a matter of getting them to work in a cool way that doesn't reduce all of them to useless chaff. I want the ordinary guardsmen being capable of carrying the army in some way, but right now, they're just far too incapable compared to the much heavier infantry they will constantly have to face.

But generally, it feels like the game has moved far beyond the kind of game where that's possible with all the superheroes, extremely powerful vehicles and ultrasuperelites running around.

I totally agree.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 13:39:14


Post by: Dukeofstuff


Assault veterans.
10 guys, WS 3+ and BS4+.
3 can have a combat shield and a chainsword or powersword (and a laspistol)
Sarge can have a powersword or chainsword (and a laspistol or hand flamer)
up to 2 can have hand flamers and chainsword
rest have laspistol and chainsword.

ALL have a cheapo gaurd jump pack that gives them 10 inches of movement, fly, and +1 on charges.

Dunno what the unit would cost but I would probably want it!





Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 13:41:48


Post by: kirotheavenger


I wouldn't want to see Guard jump pack units, that's completely at odds with their 20th century military aesthetic.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 13:43:29


Post by: Kanluwen


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wouldn't want to see Guard jump pack units, that's completely at odds with their 20th century military aesthetic.

Right, because 20th century militaries are known for their elite sniper-cook cadres and brutes with grenade launcher gloves and tank armor shields.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 14:04:13


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Marines, Custodes and Sisters all have jump troops, I don't really want guard to have the same units as there with the only difference being power armour and having las instead of bolt weapons...

Assault platoons that have special rules for disembarking from chimeras or having cavalry of some sorts (rough riders ideally) then yeah cool, but no just be assault marines copy but well, be guard and flimsy.

Catachan devils (catachans unqiue veterens) with ambush rules though with 6" deep strike/strategic deployment though... Yep, all for it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 14:06:51


Post by: kirotheavenger


We already have rules to give Veterans shotguns and carapace armour, I think that should cover the close-assault niche for that.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 14:49:15


Post by: Pyroalchi


Again from a more fluffy perspective (I don't believe that would come a they would have to change the molds without really changing the model): it always buggered me that Ogryns had projectile weapons, especially when it's mentioned that they tend to like a "big boom" (in the sense of having very little fire discipline). Neither ripper guns nor grenade gauntlets seem to have sufficient ammunition and the Ogryns don't cary them around either. I think (personal opinion) a (twin) Multilaser and a big backpack full of powerpacks would make much more sense. Point your Ogryn towards the enemy and tell them to just push the big red button and enjoy the light show. Until there backpack is empty there are most likely either no enemies or surviving Ogryn left.
And I'm sure if you really put your mind to it you can build a Multilaser sturdy enough to be handled by an Ogryn.

As to dedicated, "elite" CC units: I too think those would be better left to Bullgryn, Crusaders and Rough Riders. I don't see a guardsman being valuable enough to go through the hassle of giving him a jump pack. But I could see Conscripts getting "pistol + dedicated CC weapon" as optional sidegrade to their lasgun to reflect penal guard, conscripted hive gangers and the like.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 15:01:44


Post by: fraser1191


Not new units but I'd really appreciate a separation of characters from the command squad like marines. Medic, banner bearer, I don't think anyone takes these characters cause they don't get a chance to do anything, and if they could people would just shoot the unit because they're just unit upgrades and not separate characters.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 15:11:51


Post by: Kanluwen


The problem with multilasers isn't the sturdiness, it's the power supply and cooling.

Crusaders aren't Guard.
Rough Riders were, initially, debuted as a non-regimental asset. They were effectively "specialist" assets. Bumping them to be regimental assets was a huge mistake and should be reverted.

We don't need to "reflect penal guard, conscripted hive gangers, and the like". It's conscripts. It's done. We don't need to cater to some nonsense for the "different types of conscripts". It's a catch-all term, and the unit needs to be BS5+ with a 6+ save at this point. The only reason it's the same as Guardsmen is because it uses the kit.

It's bizarre the kinds of things people feel "need to happen" with Guard, but somehow some Jump Pack Guardsmen is a bridge too far?

This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 15:15:27


Post by: kirotheavenger


In fairness it's only been me that's objected to jump pack guardsman.

I like the Guard's current aesthetic. I think they need some of the stuff they've lost getting re-added and they definitely need to do something with conscripts, a 6+ save would be great (iirc they had that in 5th).

A reboot isn't going to happen though, sure as sure.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 15:29:51


Post by: Kanluwen


 kirotheavenger wrote:
In fairness it's only been me that's objected to jump pack guardsman.

No actually, it isn't. Any time the subject gets brought up it gets objected to with some ridiculous nonsense that usually gets followed by "...so bring Rough Riders back!".
They're both poor concepts, but one at least does not require carting horses across a galaxy-spanning Imperium.

I like the Guard's current aesthetic. I think they need some of the stuff they've lost getting re-added and they definitely need to do something with conscripts, a 6+ save would be great (iirc they had that in 5th).

The Guard's "current aesthetic" is Cadian, but unfortunately the rules are Valhallan. That's the best description I can give for why the book has been garbage since Cruddace's turn.

Conscripts have been 5+ since Eye of Terror and the Youth Army Squads(which were locked at 10 models I might add), which were Cadian specific.

A reboot isn't going to happen though, sure as sure.

Maybe, maybe not.

It just needs to not have Robin Cruddace involved. Like even tangentially. Because his purported obsession with Guard being an "early 20th century" force is downright harmful to the game.
It's why Guard lost lasguns for Sergeants and Officers(a thing which Guard lore has continually reinforced as a thing!), it's why we keep getting the focus on conscripts rather than the professional soldiery, and the nonsense that is "Command Squads".

There are so, so many ways to make the Guard book good without being broken. There is so much room for actually creating the forces that people claim to want to see without overwhelming the game. There is so much room for bringing in some of the offshoot concepts that people like to bring up(Arbites, PDF, Inquisition) without it being a thing that just takes over the army.

There just needs to be the actual motivation to do it and to take advantage of the "Auxilia" tag that we have cluttering our book.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 15:36:54


Post by: Grimtuff


 Kanluwen wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wouldn't want to see Guard jump pack units, that's completely at odds with their 20th century military aesthetic.

Right, because 20th century militaries are known for their elite sniper-cook cadres and brutes with grenade launcher gloves and tank armor shields.


That's not what he said and you know it.

Those units you mentioned still have a modern army aesthetic, just juxtaposed with them being worn with fantastical races (or in that case abhumans).

I personally hope they bring back Rough Riders, as they rustle your jimmies so much.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 15:44:16


Post by: Kanluwen


I've said before(admittedly, it's been awhile since the main argument constantly thrown out is always "they just need to come back for reasons" while I can't have Kasrkin "for reasons"..and what do you really say to that? there's no room for a conversation--it's just "I want what I want") that I'd be happy with them coming back as Auxilia, bringing back the concept of the Attillan Rough Riders(an outsized 'regiment' that gets assigned as assets to a warzone). I just don't think the current concept(horses+lances) belong as a Regimental asset. Same thing goes for Conscripts.

And I quoted what he said. There's nothing stopping small, boxy jump packs(or whatever "20th century military aesthetic" even means in this context, outside of "they wear uniforms" I guess?) from being a thing to contrast with the big round jump packs of Marines or whatever the big deal really is.

If the big problem is just "we don't want mobile, melee potential guardsmen that aren't Rough Riders"...then there's no real discussion to be had. It's two different approaches to the same concept, just coming down to a difference of preference. Some people are happy with Ratlings, I want to see actual Guardsman sniper teams being a thing. There's zero reason that both cannot exist in the Guard book thanks to the fact that the concepts have some room for different weapon types/special rules.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 16:05:36


Post by: Galas


Don't Elysians are a full jump pack infantry regiment?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 16:09:45


Post by: Kanluwen


No, Elysians have Grav-Chutes.

And that's where one of the big problems has always been with regards to the 'Airborne Guard' concept. Grav-Chutes, to the outside observer, look like jump packs...which they kinda/sorta are? But it's one-use. They're there to slow descent.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 16:18:22


Post by: kirotheavenger


D-99 used to have Guardsman sniper squads.
I'd like to see the return of Elysian and D-99 rules, although given that they've been axed by Forgeworld it's unlikely to ever happen.
You can already sort of do it with Command Squads iirc. But snipers just generally suck atm, because most characters are too swol to die to that sort of fire.

Part of the reason I object to Guardsman jump pack squads is because they need to be a little unique.
Guardsman-Sisters-Marines shouldn't all just follow the same rules but a sliding scale of better stats.
But it's not my only objection. I don't think it fits the 20th century aesthetic at all.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 16:50:04


Post by: Gert


I don't think AM needs new units they just need updated models for the largest part of most armies, the infantry. The biggest issue is that it's not a streamlined organisation in lore and unlike Marines, you can't easily convert Cadians into Vostroyans, and providing basic infantry for the "main" regiments means either 6 separate kits for each infantry unit or a new updated kit that is released alongside upgrade packs, which I think everyone would agree would not go down well.

The best option would probably be to go the Bolt Action route with basic one-piece bodies but numerous head and weapon options, the British Infantry kit is a brilliant example because it comes with enough heads to represent the basic infantry alongside notable regiments/divisions such as Sikh or Scottish soldiers.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 17:00:02


Post by: panzerfront14


I wish that Guard would get a "Heavy" Tank in plastic.

As it stands right now, a Leman Russ is very much like a Churchill had a baby with a Sherman/T-34 which resulted in them getting an Infantry/Medium tank hybrid.

I wish they'd get like a previous poster said, a Malcador or Macharius heavy tank in plastic, designed to assert that they should be among the kings of armored warfare in terms of sheer scale.

Mostly I wish that cannons were given better rules. A Vanquisher should not be akin to a slightly stronger Lascannon, make it like sticking a Sherman Firefly on the battlefield relative to the 75s (Battlecannon Russes).

Slap it with a d6 plus 5 damage shot. Make those guns feel like a solid punch. A true tank killer. Tank cannons do not need to be rapid fire machine guns but massive blasts that rip things apart. Drop the fire twice rule, just buff their cannons to be hilariously powerful for their 1 shot per turn. Something like a battlecannon should be taking chunks of my Black Templar's Crusader Squads, it does, but it also shouldn't be better than the Vanquisher at blasting my Dreadnoughts and Landraiders.

I honestly think that the Guard Range is pretty good but need better rules on the tabletop, just like my tyranids.

Though I do like those gas weapons that were mentioned before. Maybe an aerosolized Acid or something really nasty to eat through the seals on gas masks and into things like a Necron or the toughened biology of Tyranids and Orks, a configurable cocktail of weapons, maybe a handful of utility shells designed for various effects. Perhaps stratagems involving utilizing high explosives to drive enemy into cover, followed by a dropping of chemical weapons to rip into exposed soldiers.

I would prefer Officers to be more than buff bots, but rather introduce more regimental "Advisors" which would allow more coordination between assets, which, along with planning is the job of Officers IRL.

In addition to those, perhaps giving certain weapons an option similar to what missile launchers have, such as giving battle cannons a Frag shell and a Krak Shell. Separate the HE from AP, instead of trying to mix the two roles. Something like 2d6 Strength 6 AP-1 D1 shots for a Frag Shell, and an Strength 10 AP -3 D6+2 Krak Shell. Make these tanks cheap so they reflect that the Imperium should outnumber most foes. To my understanding the BC Russ with HB Sponsons and hull Lascannons costs about 195 points, with the following change, I'd suggest dropping it to about 160 points. You're losing power on individual russes, but they should be on the cheaper side. Let other more exotic russes take up the high end, with things like Vanquishers being the go to AT Russ, the Demolisher the go to close range heavy target tank, the Eradicator, Executioner and Exterminator all variations on heavy and super heavy infantry/light vehicles.

In terms of a new unit, some armored troops who are not Ogryns but are capable of standing on an objective, call them "Armored Assault Troops, but with a fancy name. Let them load up on heavy flamers/regular flamers and other close range weapons. The IG should know that their soldiers cannot physically stand up to a lot of threats out their without some sort of heavy firepower/armor. Slap these guys with carapace armor and bring back Hellguns, make them more focused on ROF vs Hotshot Lasguns having armor penetration. Think Assault 3, AP-1 Las Guns. Two special weapons and perhaps 1 heavy flamer per squad. Let them come in sizes from 5 to 10.

Another thing would be a servitor kit, to act as assistance for artillery vehicles, perhaps with a different effect depending on which one they're assisting. An additional shot for a Basilisk, more reliable Deathstrike, though I'm uncertain of what they could do for a Wyvern or a Manticore...



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 17:03:12


Post by: Valkyrie


Penal Legions would be good from a fluff perspective rather than as a competitive unit. I can't imagine it'd be too difficult to port over the old 5th Ed rules:

- Limit of 1 per detachment
- Unit of 10-30 Legionnaires led by an Overseer.
- If the Overseer is alive, can inflict (x) Mortal Wounds to auto-pass Morale.
- Can't hold objectives but don't give up points for losing the unit (big maybe on this one).
- Some sort of minor upgrade like the 5th Ed version?



Would be good to get Rough Riders back, or some equivalent such as bikers.


It'd also be good to have some variation between Lasguns, Autoguns and Shotguns. While this only really applies to Vets and a few select units, at the moment it seems a bit useless to take Autoguns (no FRFSRF) and Shotguns (unlikely to get close enough for +1S to make a difference).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 17:57:33


Post by: ccs


 Kanluwen wrote:

We don't need to "reflect penal guard, conscripted hive gangers, and the like". It's conscripts. It's done. We don't need to cater to some nonsense for the "different types of conscripts". It's a catch-all term, and the unit needs to be BS5+ with a 6+ save at this point. The only reason it's the same as Guardsmen is because it uses the kit.


Besides, in general how else would you arm them? You scoop up 10k conscripts - be they gangers, criminals, random civvies, etc, hand each of them a standard pattern lasgun/helmet/uniform, assign a few Commissar to mind them & ship them of to the front....
Congratulations, you're in the Imperial Guard now. Shoot those aliens.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.


So long as your nuking doesn't invalidate anything in my collection.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 18:14:30


Post by: BlackoCatto


They aren't nuking it and never will.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 18:15:45


Post by: KidCthulhu


I always wanted to see sappers/combat engineers. Make it a five man squad that can infiltrate and gets crazy bonuses against fortifications. Have it as a 1-per-platoon sort of deal.

Also, drop troops with grav-chutes (with actual plastic model support) as Elite would be nice.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 18:31:45


Post by: Pyroalchi


 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem with multilasers isn't the sturdiness, it's the power supply and cooling.

I refered to the fluff mentioning ripper guns as armament because they are "sturdy enough to be Ogrynproof". I don't believe that you could not make a Multilaser Ogrynproof and I think a weapon with more than maybe 10-20 shots is better for an Abhuman with little fire discipline.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Crusaders aren't Guard.

last time I looked they were Astra Militarum?


Regarding Kanluwens comment on Jumppack infantry/ Rough Riders: As someone who also objected: I'm not really against jump pack infantry. I just (like some other poster I don't find at the moment) would like to not go the same route as SoB and Marines (and Tau and Eldar for that matter) who all use some form of jump pack. Cavalry on the other hand is currently only used by the AdMech. That's my main reason for prefering them
The same with Ogryns: currently IG is the only army with Abhumans. I think that's great and might be further explored.
But I respect everyone that has another opinion and would prefer Jumppacks. You do you.

@ Conscripts: I personally (again that is only my preference and everyone can disagree) would find it nice to have the option of arming light infantry for CC. Not as Elite fighters but as poorly equipped rubble. Nobody is forced to use that, as nobody is forced to add elite Infantry like Scions to their army. My proposition targetted the Conscripts as the armament option (they could still be fielded with Lasguns) would differentiate them from normal Infantry squads. Also they might (!) become an interesting option for custom regiments with the melee traits. And finally from a lore perspective: in a setting were almost everything is better in CC, if one has not enough lasguns for everyone I would give those I have to my best troops and the rest would have to make due with pistols and clubs until someone else drops a real gun.

Edit: to clarify: that would not necessarily be a new kit. Just edit the datasheet. It's not that hard to glue some pistol and Chainsaw holding arms to a cadian body.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 18:34:08


Post by: Kanluwen


ccs wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

We don't need to "reflect penal guard, conscripted hive gangers, and the like". It's conscripts. It's done. We don't need to cater to some nonsense for the "different types of conscripts". It's a catch-all term, and the unit needs to be BS5+ with a 6+ save at this point. The only reason it's the same as Guardsmen is because it uses the kit.


Besides, in general how else would you arm them? You scoop up 10k conscripts - be they gangers, criminals, random civvies, etc, hand each of them a standard pattern lasgun/helmet/uniform, assign a few Commissar to mind them & ship them of to the front....
Congratulations, you're in the Imperial Guard now. Shoot those aliens.

And this is part of where the problem lies.

If you're "scooping up 10k conscripts and shipping them off to the front"? They ain't Guardsmen. They're Conscripts. You've sourced them locally, they've received no training, and the Munitorum likely is not the one arming them but rather the local Imperial authorities.

Autoguns, which can be produced locally alongside of ammo, maybe a Flak Vest for a 6+ save. Lower Leadership or a "Rabble" rule, actually necessitating a Commissar being involved. Auxilia keyword instead of <Regiment>.

Remember that the Guard have Lasguns instead of Autoguns because of the lack of local infrastructure. If you've got Conscripts? Local infrastructure's there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.


So long as your nuking doesn't invalidate anything in my collection.

And this is why we can't have nice things. There needs to be a dramatic shift at times, and "no invalidate" is going to keep the status quo.

It sucks, but oh well. I lost 30+ Sergeants/Officers with Lasguns. You can handle it too.

The biggest thing that needs to happen in any regards? Removal of Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry/Veteran/Command Squads. Add man-portable Heavy Weapons as an additional "Special Weapon" choice, things like Heavy Stubbers or Heavy Lasguns.

HWTs either need to be able to be deployed separate from an Infantry Squad if they are to remain in Infantry Squads or remain the purview of Heavy Weapons Squads, becoming a pseudo 'vehicle squadron' of buy more than one and deploy across things.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 18:40:29


Post by: endlesswaltz123


What's your justification for such a small change, I don't see that as particularly ground breaking, but I also don't see the point of it... Let squads have heavy weapons if they want them, for the most part, most don't use them in squads now anyway because they want the guard squads to be mobile to capture objectives, but I don't see the harm in having them for someone who does want them.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 19:02:46


Post by: Kanluwen


 Pyroalchi wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem with multilasers isn't the sturdiness, it's the power supply and cooling.

I refered to the fluff mentioning ripper guns as armament because they are "sturdy enough to be Ogrynproof". I don't believe that you could not make a Multilaser Ogrynproof and I think a weapon with more than maybe 10-20 shots is better for an Abhuman with little fire discipline.

You can't make a Multilaser Ogryn-proof. The whole reason they're vehicle mounted is the sensitive alignment for the laser housing and cooling systems plus the power consumption. It's also not like the Ripper Guns cannot be reloaded.


 Kanluwen wrote:

Crusaders aren't Guard.

last time I looked they were Astra Militarum?

Keyword: Adeptus Ministorum.
They're in the book, but they are not Guardsmen. No more than Ministorum Priests or Techpriest Enginseers are.


Regarding Kanluwens comment on Jumppack infantry/ Rough Riders: As someone who also objected: I'm not really against jump pack infantry. I just (like some other poster I don't find at the moment) would like to not go the same route as SoB and Marines (and Tau and Eldar for that matter) who all use some form of jump pack. Cavalry on the other hand is currently only used by the AdMech. That's my main reason for prefering them

Cavalry is also used by Daemons of Chaos.

If they were to restrict things based on "two or more" factions having things, we wouldn't have anything for GSC. Nothing stops us from getting Jump Pack infantry for Guard.

The same with Ogryns: currently IG is the only army with Abhumans. I think that's great and might be further explored.
But I respect everyone that has another opinion and would prefer Jumppacks. You do you.

Chaos has Abhumans, even ignoring FW. BSF brought in the Traitor Command(Commissar+Ogryn) and the Beastmen.

@ Conscripts: I personally (again that is only my preference and everyone can disagree) would find it nice to have the option of arming light infantry for CC. Not as Elite fighters but as poorly equipped rubble. Nobody is forced to use that, as nobody is forced to add elite Infantry like Scions to their army. My proposition targetted the Conscripts as the armament option (they could still be fielded with Lasguns) would differentiate them from normal Infantry squads. Also they might (!) become an interesting option for custom regiments with the melee traits. And finally from a lore perspective: in a setting were almost everything is better in CC, if one has not enough lasguns for everyone I would give those I have to my best troops and the rest would have to make due with pistols and clubs until someone else drops a real gun.

Edit: to clarify: that would not necessarily be a new kit. Just edit the datasheet. It's not that hard to glue some pistol and Chainsaw holding arms to a cadian body.

Or we do the sensible thing and make Conscripts into actual Conscripts. Lesser armor save, lesser leadership, and no <Regiment> tag while toting autoguns or pistols or whatever. There's room for an actual, flexible Cultist-esque unit...but it is NOT with the <Regiment> tag handy.

End. Of. Story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
What's your justification for such a small change, I don't see that as particularly ground breaking, but I also don't see the point of it... Let squads have heavy weapons if they want them, for the most part, most don't use them in squads now anyway because they want the guard squads to be mobile to capture objectives, but I don't see the harm in having them for someone who does want them.

"Heavy Weapons Teams" are things that, fluffwise, are supposed to be set up either distinct from the squad or assigned to support the squad from another element within the Company/Regiment.

By stripping HWTs out of Infantry Squads, we open up room for things like Heavy Stubbers and Heavy Lasguns to be added to the Special Weapons list and Infantry Squads to get two Special Weapons per squad.

There's a few things that really should be "Special Weapons" instead of "Heavy Weapons", and there's a few things from the lore that would also fit the bill. Things like the 'Treadfethers' from the Gaunt's Ghost books, for example, were distinct from Missile Launchers. Launchers can be reloaded while the others were one-shot disposables.

There's a ton of little things that can be done to keep Guard from being ridiculous while also showcasing that Infantry Squads aren't "veterans".


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 19:45:41


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Fair enough, I sort of like it, especially if you could split off the heavy weapons from the squad, though how that would work with morale etc would have to be carefully considered.

On the flip side, I also don't think that just because it is more fluffy to do it, doesn't mean it makes sense in the game mechanics. Imagine if you could split off the heavy weapon teams for every squad to become their own little area denial island to deep strike?

I know that isn't your only suggestion mind, with the other more extreme one being to just take HWT's away from squads wholesale but that is just one potential problem with that specific suggestion, it could be used in a gamey way quite quickly.

The idea of expanding the scope of special weapons is cool though, I actually don't like that guard can spam so much plasma and melta (for fluff reasons) but good alternatives can negate that.

However, I do not want guard jump infantry... As I said earlier, nearly all imperium factions have them, guard need to be different rather than marines in flak armour. I also like the bonkers grim dark aesthetic of bioengineered super steeds to be used as cavalry, it's the flavour of the setting as I see it. Opinions will differ on that, but I don't really want to see guard lose their schtick of the equipment being more important than the man using it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 19:50:34


Post by: jeff white


ccs wrote:
I want:
RT era human bombs to return.
Rough Riders on horse.
Rough Riders on bikes.
a mix & match rules system for making & equipping ab-humans


I just wish that they would do the core units well.
New plastic Vostroyans for instance, Valhallans, some exciting troops reflecting human diversity yada.

And sure, dudes on bikes and various mounts (for which one might also count horses) would be great.
Rough riders should return updated, certainly.

Perhaps a new set of artillery with the return of templates...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
I don't think AM needs new units they just need updated models for the largest part of most armies, the infantry. The biggest issue is that it's not a streamlined organisation in lore and unlike Marines, you can't easily convert Cadians into Vostroyans, and providing basic infantry for the "main" regiments means either 6 separate kits for each infantry unit or a new updated kit that is released alongside upgrade packs, which I think everyone would agree would not go down well.

The best option would probably be to go the Bolt Action route with basic one-piece bodies but numerous head and weapon options, the British Infantry kit is a brilliant example because it comes with enough heads to represent the basic infantry alongside notable regiments/divisions such as Sikh or Scottish soldiers.


This ^^ basically.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 20:00:10


Post by: Kanluwen


And there's the reason why I make the suggestion.

It's time we stop treating every single Guard army as "just massive numbers of models". Horde armies can just mean "lots of targets on the field"...and having HWTs being their own unit allows for that. It also becomes a trade-off that someone has to be willing to make: do I keep the squad at 10 models or go for 8+2?
Conscripts are the horde unit. Not Guard Infantry Squads.

Guard Jump Infantry, if done properly, could be worked in a manner that will not detract from Marines or Sisters. Seraphim are different to Assault Marines enough that nobody has ever really complained.
Shotgun equipped 'pioneers' with demo charges in the Guard wouldn't really be stepping on anyone else's toes.

Also worth mentioning that it's basically Krieg's schtick to use the engineered 'supersteeds'(which were basically just bad tempered and able to survive the toxic hellscape that was Krieg). And the Death Riders are considered an elite formation, not just schmucks on horses.
The Attillan and Tallarn Rough Riders just had regular ol' creatures for all intents and purposes.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 20:07:55


Post by: Voss


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines, Custodes and Sisters all have jump troops, I don't really want guard to have the same units as there with the only difference being power armour and having las instead of bolt weapons...


Guard jump units, back when they existed, were kind of weird.
Just a normal guardsman, a jump pack and two laspistols.
I don't remember ever seeing them on the table, though I bought a single blister at some point.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 22:20:53


Post by: BlackoCatto


Attilans had regiments of attached companies of Rough Riders same as Tallarn. Guards deserves to get said option again.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 22:32:52


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Voss wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines, Custodes and Sisters all have jump troops, I don't really want guard to have the same units as there with the only difference being power armour and having las instead of bolt weapons...


Guard jump units, back when they existed, were kind of weird.
Just a normal guardsman, a jump pack and two laspistols.
I don't remember ever seeing them on the table, though I bought a single blister at some point.


Drop in grav chutes that can give a once per game movement boost once landed I'm all for, that could work, but proper jump assault troops.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 23:19:25


Post by: Kanluwen


We don't need gunslingers, kthx.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 23:33:49


Post by: Voss


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Voss wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines, Custodes and Sisters all have jump troops, I don't really want guard to have the same units as there with the only difference being power armour and having las instead of bolt weapons...


Guard jump units, back when they existed, were kind of weird.
Just a normal guardsman, a jump pack and two laspistols.
I don't remember ever seeing them on the table, though I bought a single blister at some point.


Drop in grav chutes that can give a once per game movement boost once landed I'm all for, that could work, but proper jump assault troops.


Those _were_ the proper jump assault troops in RT and 2nd for guard.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 23:50:30


Post by: Gert


Guard already have drop troops, they're just called Scions.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/15 23:54:31


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I love the look of the Genestealer Cult Bikers and ATVs. Since it would unfair to steal those, a recce jeep for the AM made by the same designer could be cool.

Otherwise a refresh of the plastic infantry kits (without necessarily changing the loadouts and organization) is something I could get excited about.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 00:11:51


Post by: kurhanik


 Gert wrote:
Guard already have drop troops, they're just called Scions.


Yes and no, since 6th edition GW has been separating Stormtroopers/Scions/Kasrkin out from the army, making it its own thing (though with very little model support). In the current book you can either have Scions in your regular guard regiment, but not get any doctrine bonuses on them, or you need to take a specifically Scion detachment to get a bonus on them but then cannot take anything else in the codex aside from Scions and Auxilia. So long story short in order to have good stormtroopers in your army, you need minimum 2 detachments.


 fraser1191 wrote:
Not new units but I'd really appreciate a separation of characters from the command squad like marines. Medic, banner bearer, I don't think anyone takes these characters cause they don't get a chance to do anything, and if they could people would just shoot the unit because they're just unit upgrades and not separate characters.



See, I've been mentally thinking lately that it might be interesting to give the Command Squads a [Character] key word, and then limit it to 1 special and 1 heavy weapon. That way they can give their minor buffs without worry of being immediately killed, but they also wouldn't be able to fire off a ton of plasma from safety. I've never liked the fact that Command Squads are basically a special weapon unit and not a coordination unit. Hell, going this route it might be interesting to just roll Company/Platoon Commanders back into Command Squads. I doubt a 5 man unit with a Standard, a Vox Castor, a medi kit, a single Plasma Gun, and a Commander with a Plasma Pistol / Power Sword would break the game overmuch if it had the [Character] keyword.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 00:38:22


Post by: Kanluwen


Stormtroopers/Scions are not Kasrkin/Grenadiers.

Kasrkin and Grenadiers had Stormtrooper equipment but no alternate deployment methods.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 00:59:07


Post by: Gert


AFAIK Kasrkin were just models to be used as Stormtroopers pre-Scions, I just got rid of my old guard codex so I can't verify that. Grenadiers being Krieg units were, again AFAIK, essentially better veteran squads.

I get Scions work badly when taken in the same detachment as regular AM but TBH I don't really see that as an issue. It gets treated the same way as taking different regiments or chapters in one detachment would. They aren't regular Guardsmen so don't work well with them. Plus detachments aren't that expensive IMO.

I do agree a Guard cavalry unit would be cool to have but I could never see myself taking them even in a casual game when I could take more guns instead. Jump packs are just small jet engines, strapping that to some peasant farmer or hive scum who's had two months of basic training isn't worth the time or material when the end result is the same as not doing it, a dead peasant farmer or hive scum.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 01:35:25


Post by: Tygre


 Gert wrote:
AFAIK Kasrkin were just models to be used as Stormtroopers pre-Scions, I just got rid of my old guard codex so I can't verify that. Grenadiers being Krieg units were, again AFAIK, essentially better veteran squads.

I get Scions work badly when taken in the same detachment as regular AM but TBH I don't really see that as an issue. It gets treated the same way as taking different regiments or chapters in one detachment would. They aren't regular Guardsmen so don't work well with them. Plus detachments aren't that expensive IMO.

I do agree a Guard cavalry unit would be cool to have but I could never see myself taking them even in a casual game when I could take more guns instead. Jump packs are just small jet engines, strapping that to some peasant farmer or hive scum who's had two months of basic training isn't worth the time or material when the end result is the same as not doing it, a dead peasant farmer or hive scum.


Kasrkin were introduced in the Eye of Terror campaign as special Cadian homegrown stormtrooper equivalents. There were carapace armoured stormtroopers before them. Just many players (myself included) preferred to use them as regular stormtroopers instead. Latter these stormtrooper-esqe troops (basically veterans in carapace armour) became referred to as Grenadiers.

Jump packs have also had an antigrav component. We often meme that IG are mainly conscripts with barely any training, but the lore is that they mostly are well trained competent soldiers (~top 10% of a planets PDF as tithe). Basic training in WW2 was about 13 weeks (farmers to infantry), though I do agree that any jump-pack equipped troops should be specialists not line troops.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 08:44:58


Post by: ccs


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.


So long as your nuking doesn't invalidate anything in my collection.

And this is why we can't have nice things. There needs to be a dramatic shift at times, and "no invalidate" is going to keep the status quo.

It sucks, but oh well. I lost 30+ Sergeants/Officers with Lasguns. You can handle it too.


Oh, poor baby. You lost 30 sgts - but gained 3 whole squads! Deal with it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The biggest thing that needs to happen in any regards? Removal of Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry/Veteran/Command Squads. Add man-portable Heavy Weapons as an additional "Special Weapon" choice, things like Heavy Stubbers or Heavy Lasguns.

HWTs either need to be able to be deployed separate from an Infantry Squad if they are to remain in Infantry Squads or remain the purview of Heavy Weapons Squads, becoming a pseudo 'vehicle squadron' of buy more than one and deploy across things.


Well, other than adding Heavy Stubbers for a more MG42/M60 vibe, that's an idiotic idea. Squads in the real world have been packing what 40k terms heavy weapons embedded in squads since WWII (if not before). As well as having dedicated platoons of the things. And since the IG is generally inspired by WWII....
Besides, why would that change 38k years from now?
Now if YOU don't want to include heavy weapons in your own squads? Feel free not to spend the pts on them. It's not required.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 10:11:36


Post by: Caradman Sturnn


I'd be all for a Guard redesign, it be really great if GW's creative teams decided to play something like Company of Heroes (the original one) to get some ideas on how to structure a more or less conventional fighting force in a strategic setting.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 10:16:42


Post by: endlesswaltz123


That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, just to add to the above, in a way the administrative mess that is the imperium is extremely efficient at supporting the current way the guard operate, DKoK on Vraks for example, they had everything they needed to wage the war they wanted to wage with constant resupplies or support to launch attacks in a specific way they wanted, down to the exact amount of shells and replacement basilisk barrels required for their shelling offensives... It logistically works, it just isn't efficient, and incredibly outdated, and that is the guard, why modernise when the current process "works" in the imperiums opinion.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 10:28:48


Post by: kirotheavenger


The Guard are every military and every stereotype thereof from the 19th century to modern day depending on the regiment(s) you're looking at.
Want to recreate Enemy at the Gates? Guard have you covered with Conscripts.
Want to recreate the Vietnam war? Catachan.
Want to recreate a modern professional army? That's pretty much the Cadians.

Although I think new kits will just make the problem of affordability worse, expanding on the Guard's infantry options would be great imo.
Conscripts could have a more rag-tag look to them.
Veterans in particular have a long way to go. Restore them their options of heavily armoured or stealthy variants (as separate units if necessary). Perhaps add grav-para versions.
Give them some more weapons - it's about time Guard got a light machine gun, like the Hotshot Volley Gun but normal.

Play around with Leman Russes and artillery so they're a little more impressive, although they're hemmed in by the lack lustre rules for vehicles and blasts in general.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 13:06:10


Post by: BlackoCatto


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, just to add to the above, in a way the administrative mess that is the imperium is extremely efficient at supporting the current way the guard operate, DKoK on Vraks for example, they had everything they needed to wage the war they wanted to wage with constant resupplies or support to launch attacks in a specific way they wanted, down to the exact amount of shells and replacement basilisk barrels required for their shelling offensives... It logistically works, it just isn't efficient, and incredibly outdated, and that is the guard, why modernise when the current process "works" in the imperiums opinion.


Is this an argument not to update any miniature line for Guard or give them models.....?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 13:14:23


Post by: endlesswaltz123


 BlackoCatto wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, just to add to the above, in a way the administrative mess that is the imperium is extremely efficient at supporting the current way the guard operate, DKoK on Vraks for example, they had everything they needed to wage the war they wanted to wage with constant resupplies or support to launch attacks in a specific way they wanted, down to the exact amount of shells and replacement basilisk barrels required for their shelling offensives... It logistically works, it just isn't efficient, and incredibly outdated, and that is the guard, why modernise when the current process "works" in the imperiums opinion.


Is this an argument not to update any miniature line for Guard or give them models.....?


Oh no no no, the infantry in particular need an update, but the play style does not need wholesale changes. I'm in favour of an update on regimental infantry in terms of models, but rules wise I don't want to see any changes or many bar decent regimental rules that fit the regiments style.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 13:31:40


Post by: Nerak


 Gert wrote:
I don't think AM needs new units they just need updated models for the largest part of most armies, the infantry. The biggest issue is that it's not a streamlined organisation in lore and unlike Marines, you can't easily convert Cadians into Vostroyans, and providing basic infantry for the "main" regiments means either 6 separate kits for each infantry unit or a new updated kit that is released alongside upgrade packs, which I think everyone would agree would not go down well.

The best option would probably be to go the Bolt Action route with basic one-piece bodies but numerous head and weapon options, the British Infantry kit is a brilliant example because it comes with enough heads to represent the basic infantry alongside notable regiments/divisions such as Sikh or Scottish soldiers.

I feel like this would be the best option, though I disagree with the second part of this post. One-piece body models is quite limiting for posing/conversions. That said what I would like to see in the game is a mercenary add on. Both xeno and Imperium. If we look at the Necromunda range of models we see quite an extensive line of possibilities. The Van-Saar gang has flying skateboards. The Orlocks have enormous crossbows. The mutants are up to all kinds of shenanigans. This could be incorporated into the game by having a mercenary (or dogs of war) supplement. This would not be covered by conscripts. I mean, when was the last time you saw a conscript on a hover board? If you want jump infantry then you could easily have a merc squad of jump pack specialists or something. Or it could let you use Kroot or Hrud in imperial armies. We all know that the Imperium lore vise isn't supposed to use aliens in wars. We also know that it happens, there's even an ork klan centered around it. So yeah, a mercenary supplement is what I'd like to see. It's not really necessary though.

One other thing. Way back when (some 10 or so years ago) guards was an army to be shaped in your image. You could have guard units infiltrate at the cost of heavy weapon choices, give guardsmen close combat weapons or give all your guards 4+ carpace armour. I'd like to see something similar to this again. Maybe be able to represent a scout detatchment by giving them different gear and special rules? It's not really a request for new models more a more open mind as to how the guards can be used.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 13:48:53


Post by: Gert


Giving vets the option to be grenadiers or basic drop troops would be awesome, I always loved that in the old rules. The infantry squads would be basic but the vets could show the specialty of the regiment.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 14:38:26


Post by: Kanluwen


ccs wrote:

Oh, poor baby. You lost 30 sgts - but gained 3 whole squads! Deal with it.

"Thirty plus officers/sergeants". And no, you don't "gain 3 whole squads".

This is why having the "FRFSRF" discussion with anyone who does not seem to actually read the squad makeup of Guard Squads is so frustrating.
Sergeants have Laspistols. You don't get an option to not have Laspistols, before going into the armory.

So 30 officers/sergeants at best becomes a unit of 30 Conscripts not "3 whole squads".

 Kanluwen wrote:
The biggest thing that needs to happen in any regards? Removal of Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry/Veteran/Command Squads. Add man-portable Heavy Weapons as an additional "Special Weapon" choice, things like Heavy Stubbers or Heavy Lasguns.

HWTs either need to be able to be deployed separate from an Infantry Squad if they are to remain in Infantry Squads or remain the purview of Heavy Weapons Squads, becoming a pseudo 'vehicle squadron' of buy more than one and deploy across things.


Well, other than adding Heavy Stubbers for a more MG42/M60 vibe, that's an idiotic idea. Squads in the real world have been packing what 40k terms heavy weapons embedded in squads since WWII (if not before). As well as having dedicated platoons of the things. And since the IG is generally inspired by WWII....
Besides, why would that change 38k years from now?
Now if YOU don't want to include heavy weapons in your own squads? Feel free not to spend the pts on them. It's not required.

And "squads in the real world" don't stand around in whole groups. They break into fireteams, with squad support weapons(or sniper/spotter teams, or anti-tank teams, etc) finding optimal placement to bring their role into play. Also, the "realism" argument dictates that I remind you of this:

There's three classifications of machine guns. LMGs/MMGs are the ones that "squads in the real world" have been packing. HMGs tended to be in heavy weapon platoons/defensively emplaced.
Then you get into mortars, which are similarly classified and utilized.
Then you get into anti-tank weaponry, which initially started out being emplaced field guns or other tanks/carriages and moved down into rifles/disposable launchers like the panzerfaust which then moved up to reloadable, reusable launchers like the PIAT, bazooka, and panzerschrek.

So your realism argument actually lends itself more towards what I've proposed.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 16:22:41


Post by: Gert


Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.
Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 17:08:27


Post by: Pyroalchi


Again regarding ideas for units to expand guard: I would like to see the option for heavy flamers on Infantry as well as Multilasers. Purely out of personal modelling preferences.

The "scout jeep" mentioned earlier also sounds cool, maybe something close to the Tauros Assault Vehicle.

Last but not least: as it somehow still is for sale, rules for the Valkyrie Sky Talon would be funny. Imagine if it could somehow grav enemy vehicles, pull them up and drop them (did someone play Earth 2150? There was a Transport Heli that could so that)


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 17:21:16


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gert wrote:
Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.

Except they didn't fight like that prior to Cruddace's book.

The Doctrine book let you field entire armies of Drop Troops or infiltrating specialists. And then Cruddace's book comes out and we've gone back to the Napoleonic era where the Close Order Drill Doctrine is apparently in every single faction.


Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.

That's nice for you, but yeah it is a big deal to someone like myself who actually \played Guard at the time. Because there wasn't even a balance issue or a lack of kit issue. Officers and Sergeants could take Lasguns because the fluff suggested that's what they did.

Then Cruddace comes along and the army book becomes hot garbage other than a few gimmick lists like Leafblower.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 18:22:59


Post by: endlesswaltz123


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.

Except they didn't fight like that prior to Cruddace's book.

The Doctrine book let you field entire armies of Drop Troops or infiltrating specialists. And then Cruddace's book comes out and we've gone back to the Napoleonic era where the Close Order Drill Doctrine is apparently in every single faction.


Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.

That's nice for you, but yeah it is a big deal to someone like myself who actually \played Guard at the time. Because there wasn't even a balance issue or a lack of kit issue. Officers and Sergeants could take Lasguns because the fluff suggested that's what they did.

Then Cruddace comes along and the army book becomes hot garbage other than a few gimmick lists like Leafblower.


But before then, it was as it is now, so in fact that is the anomaly and the intended status quo has been restored.

I actually agree with you though, the doctrines book was awesome, and tbh, was basically as it is now, but allowed for variation based upon choice.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 18:34:24


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.

Except they didn't fight like that prior to Cruddace's book.

The Doctrine book let you field entire armies of Drop Troops or infiltrating specialists. And then Cruddace's book comes out and we've gone back to the Napoleonic era where the Close Order Drill Doctrine is apparently in every single faction.


Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.

That's nice for you, but yeah it is a big deal to someone like myself who actually \played Guard at the time. Because there wasn't even a balance issue or a lack of kit issue. Officers and Sergeants could take Lasguns because the fluff suggested that's what they did.

Then Cruddace comes along and the army book becomes hot garbage other than a few gimmick lists like Leafblower.


It seems that you're annoyed that an army changed five editions ago and don't want to make changes to that army even though they aren't even that big and could be resolved by saying "yeah my army is old and I didn't want to break apart my models, I hope that's ok". Unless your entire strategy hinged on 1 or 2 extra shots per squad it's a difficult argument to understand.

It's been the better part of a decade since the Cruddace codex and even without it BL and GW have been consistent on the Guard being mass formations both in lore and gameplay while at the same time contradicting each other at every turn with some officers using rifles and some using CQW. The lore and game changes, yes you can be annoyed but suggesting an entire faction should be rebooted because you lost an option a decade ago is hardly a strong argument.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 18:50:34


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


If you look at the Rogue Trader-era illustrations of the Imperial Guard, they are advancing in dense ranks with Colours flying - very Napoleonic. So maybe later Codexes were just going back to the original.

Having Heavy Weapons Teams splitting off from an Infantry Squad kinda worked in 2nd Edition when you might only have three or four squads on the table. I think it would be a problem now from a game design/balance/playability perspective to have all those independent teams split off. They could really exploit some game mechanics regarding targeting, board control and scoring. I could get behind having Heavy Weapons Squads as a Troops choice to get around the Rule of 3, but perhaps tied to the number of Infantry Squads you take? I think that Infantry Squads should still have the option of an integral Heavy Weapon Team.

I suppose my idea for a "jeep" with a heavy weapon would be filling the niche of the Sentinel. I just think it would look a lot cooler. Oh well.

And yes, bring back Rough Riders.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 19:09:23


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gert wrote:


It seems that you're annoyed that an army changed five editions ago and don't want to make changes to that army even though they aren't even that big and could be resolved by saying "yeah my army is old and I didn't want to break apart my models, I hope that's ok". Unless your entire strategy hinged on 1 or 2 extra shots per squad it's a difficult argument to understand.

I'm "annoyed" that people continually try to pretend that this was some kind of non-issue. This was continually justified by people as "WELL NO OTHER ARMIES CAN ARM ALL THEIR SERGEANTS OR HEROES WITH THE BASIC WEAPONS!".
Tau have a specialized Pulse Rifle on Fireblades, who were released after that whole thing happened. Marines have Boltguns on characters. Tyranids can give their leader models the same weapons as their units.
It's not even the FRFSRF issue, which has consistently been misrepresented by people as infantry squads volleying up 20 shots outside of Rapid Fire range.

It's that we have had a consistently inconsistent list of weapons for Sergeants and Officers. And you can't even try to pretend that it's "CQW" at this point, because the only weapons they come with as standard are laspistols. The Scion Tempestors/Tempestor Primes are the exception rather than the rule though since they do get a Chainsword+Hotshot Laspistol.

It's been the better part of a decade since the Cruddace codex and even without it BL and GW have been consistent on the Guard being mass formations both in lore and gameplay while at the same time contradicting each other at every turn with some officers using rifles and some using CQW. The lore and game changes, yes you can be annoyed but suggesting an entire faction should be rebooted because you lost an option a decade ago is hardly a strong argument.

Funny how I said nothing about "mass formations".

Napoleonic is a specific 'style'. It's Mordians and Praetorians with their tightly packed ranks(there was even a Doctrine for it! It was called "Close Order Drill") and banners in the squads.
And for every example of "mass formations", we have another example of Guard operating with combined arms and bounding fireteams.
Most of those examples though are Cadians, Catachans, Tallarn, and Tanith.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 19:30:38


Post by: kirotheavenger


All artwork in 40k is armies charging forwards in massed ranks.
It's just how you get lots of people to represent an action packed battle.

Jeeps are cool but essentially either Sentinels or Taurox. Couldn't we just get those back?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 19:40:51


Post by: catbarf


endlesswaltz123 wrote:That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.


Gert wrote:Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.


Have you guys read any of the fiction? Serious question, because you don't even have to go particularly far into it to find tons and tons and tons of counter-examples to this idea of Napoleonic idiocy being the sine qua non of Guard tactics.

Elysians are heavily styled after WW2 paratroopers. Their shtick is getting Operation Market Garden'd on every drop because their allied forces can't keep up with their operational tempo. Cadians are probably the most modern of the regiments, tactically. Some Kasrkin show up in the Eisenhorn books and they are basically real-world special forces. Catachans operate as light infantry in organic units. They're Vietnam War meets Rambo with a dash of Predator. Where do you see Catachans lining up and firing in massed ranks? Tallarn are taken after the Mujahideen, with an emphasis on ambush and rapid redeployment. Their command structure in Desert Raiders is reminiscent of Auftragstaktik/Mission Tactics. Vostroyans are urban fighters and operate in small units, making optimal use of terrain. And so on and so on.

About the only ones that even approach that Napoleonic ideal are Mordians, Valhallans (and even then, they're more pop-history Soviets- they still use combined arms alongside infantry assault), and Krieg. And the whole point of the Krieg is that what they do isn't normal.

As far as regiments that (currently) only exist in fiction, the Arkhan Confederates, Vassago Black Flags, and Exordio Void Breachers in the Dark Coil novels are all unique historical expies, but employ reasonably modern small unit organization and tactics. The Tanith First and Only are WW2-era SAS with a heaping helping of 'lions led by donkeys'. And I can't remember what book it was from, but I read a novel that featured an honest-to-god call for indirect fire to cover a bounding advance against an emplaced position, and it's going to bother the hell out of me until I find it again.

The idea of the Guard being composed exclusively of idiot officers leading lines of infantry into shoulder to shoulder meat grinders is a bad Flanderization of the faction. They're supposed to range the gamut from high-tech genetically-enhanced professional armies to tribes of angry savages given lasguns. They're hamstrung by the logistical incompetence of the greater Imperium and the paranoid opposition to self-sufficiency, ensuring that regiments rarely have the organic support they need and are often fielded sub-optimally, but that has no relevance at the scale 40K is played at.

I'm fine with GW redesigning the faction, but if their playstyle is reduced to a bland caricature of itself then I'm out.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 19:45:34


Post by: Kanluwen


Tallarn Desert Raiders are modelled after the WW2-era SAS/LRDG as well.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 19:45:54


Post by: SturmOgre


 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau have a specialized Pulse Rifle on Fireblades, who were released after that whole thing happened.

Just for accuracy's sake, the Fireblades actually use the standard pulse rifle. AFAIK, there is no "character" version of the pulse rifle at the moment.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 19:53:01


Post by: Kanluwen


SturmOgre wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau have a specialized Pulse Rifle on Fireblades, who were released after that whole thing happened.

Just for accuracy's sake, the Fireblades actually use the standard pulse rifle. AFAIK, there is no "character" version of the pulse rifle at the moment.
Did they change it from being the same as the sniper drones? I'm 99% sure that the last time I looked it wasn't the standard.

Haven't touched my Tau in awhile though so could be off!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 20:14:09


Post by: kirotheavenger


Fireblade has had a standard Pulse Rifle since introduction - albeit it has an inbuilt markerlight (represented by an additional marketlight as wargear).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 20:17:27


Post by: BlackoCatto


 Kanluwen wrote:
Tallarn Desert Raiders are modelled after the WW2-era SAS/LRDG as well.



That is why they all have funny Arabian names instead of funny English ones then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.


Gert wrote:Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.


Have you guys read any of the fiction? Serious question, because you don't even have to go particularly far into it to find tons and tons and tons of counter-examples to this idea of Napoleonic idiocy being the sine qua non of Guard tactics.

Elysians are heavily styled after WW2 paratroopers. Their shtick is getting Operation Market Garden'd on every drop because their allied forces can't keep up with their operational tempo. Cadians are probably the most modern of the regiments, tactically. Some Kasrkin show up in the Eisenhorn books and they are basically real-world special forces. Catachans operate as light infantry in organic units. They're Vietnam War meets Rambo with a dash of Predator. Where do you see Catachans lining up and firing in massed ranks? Tallarn are taken after the Mujahideen, with an emphasis on ambush and rapid redeployment. Their command structure in Desert Raiders is reminiscent of Auftragstaktik/Mission Tactics. Vostroyans are urban fighters and operate in small units, making optimal use of terrain. And so on and so on.

About the only ones that even approach that Napoleonic ideal are Mordians, Valhallans (and even then, they're more pop-history Soviets- they still use combined arms alongside infantry assault), and Krieg. And the whole point of the Krieg is that what they do isn't normal.

As far as regiments that (currently) only exist in fiction, the Arkhan Confederates, Vassago Black Flags, and Exordio Void Breachers in the Dark Coil novels are all unique historical expies, but employ reasonably modern small unit organization and tactics. The Tanith First and Only are WW2-era SAS with a heaping helping of 'lions led by donkeys'. And I can't remember what book it was from, but I read a novel that featured an honest-to-god call for indirect fire to cover a bounding advance against an emplaced position, and it's going to bother the hell out of me until I find it again.

The idea of the Guard being composed exclusively of idiot officers leading lines of infantry into shoulder to shoulder meat grinders is a bad Flanderization of the faction. They're supposed to range the gamut from high-tech genetically-enhanced professional armies to tribes of angry savages given lasguns. They're hamstrung by the logistical incompetence of the greater Imperium and the paranoid opposition to self-sufficiency, ensuring that regiments rarely have the organic support they need and are often fielded sub-optimally, but that has no relevance at the scale 40K is played at.

I'm fine with GW redesigning the faction, but if their playstyle is reduced to a bland caricature of itself then I'm out.


Seconded.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 20:18:53


Post by: Kanluwen


Dunno why I was thinking he had that same pulse rifle then.

Point still remains: it's an HQ with a rifle rather than waving a sword and pistol. It's an even better example if I'm going to be honest, since prior to that Tau HQs were either Ethereals or Battlesuits!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 20:56:51


Post by: Hollow


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
ccs wrote:
I want:
RT era human bombs to return.
Rough Riders on horse.
Rough Riders on bikes.
a mix & match rules system for making & equipping ab-humans


Absolutely zero chance of this happening... Someone would turn it into a PR s***storm from outside the hobby once they caught wind of it, most likely from someone unhappy within the hobby, and I think it would just be a bit un-tasteful personally.

Thematically, it makes sense, penal legions that have a suicide vest etc but yeah, no chance.




This kind of thinking doesn't really reflect reality though. A tweet or passing article doesn't actually have any real-world effect. It's like that Peta thing a while back, nothing actually comes of these PR "disasters" and people who are cancelled only make more money and become more famous.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 21:42:08


Post by: Kanluwen


Ehh...there's a difference between PETA posting something and an actual PR gakstorm.

PETA is widely regarded as ridiculous.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 21:49:49


Post by: Lord Damocles


GW thought (agreed) that a pointy hood on the Cawdor executioner was too edgy, so human bombs are well out of the question.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 21:58:05


Post by: Kanluwen


It wasn't the pointy hood alone.
It was the hood+noose.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 22:01:47


Post by: BlackoCatto


Eh it can't be that bad


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 22:35:06


Post by: kirotheavenger


Imperial Guard Sergeants get bolters, which honestly just makes it weirder that they don't get lasguns.
IMO it might be an emulation of how WW2 sergeants often carried SMGs?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 22:41:15


Post by: Flinty


But a bolter is fundamentally a support weapon in a Guard squad. If tue sergeant is doing proper supporting fire with their uberweapon, then they probably aren't doing their job properly. An SMG in a line Infantry squad is only useful if things are getting very dangerous.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 22:51:11


Post by: kirotheavenger


SMGs are also very useful for CQB in urban environments.
I'm not saying a bolter is a perfect analogy for an SMG, just that it follows the theme of 'the sergeant has a slightly fancier weapon than the grunts'.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 23:05:14


Post by: novembermike


SMGs weren't particularly fancier though, they were just smaller, more convenient guns for people that were supposed to have duties that come before getting out and shooting at people. Bolters are heavy weapons that significantly increase the firepower of a squad. It doesn't make much sense for the sergeant to have it.

My biggest issue is that it complicates things. Infantry squad guns don't matter that much but it's all easier if everyone has the same guns or at least the option.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 23:06:11


Post by: kirotheavenger


If I say "different" rather than fancy, perhaps that would better represent my point then to you?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 23:12:24


Post by: novembermike


 kirotheavenger wrote:
If I say "different" rather than fancy, perhaps that would better represent my point then to you?


Not particularly, because "different" here is mostly lighter and more convenient. The sergeant's job is keeping track fo the squad and making sure nobody gets lost, keeping track of where they're supposed to be and what they need to do, then after those things they need to shoot at people. They're close enough to the action that they can't just have a pistol but you also don't give them the big effective gun because that forces them to focus on operating the gun. If there was a las-carbine then that would be reasonable but that's out of scope for 40k.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 23:15:37


Post by: Kanluwen


Lascarbines totally are within the scope of 40k.

Assault rather than Rapid Fire. Shorter range, same stats otherwise.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 23:38:45


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I'm breezy on the Laspistol/Chainsword vs Lasgun on Sgts from a design perspective, except I don't really feel like remodelling...Advantage I suppose of the Laspistol/Sword is identifying the Sgt.

I do really feel like having a jeep with a Twin-Autocannon up top and a Heavy Stubber for the vehicle commander over the dash. Yeah!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 23:41:24


Post by: catbarf


Most nations in WW2 primarily issued handguns for officers and rifles for NCOs. SMGs for NCOs was driven by availability, and likelihood of close contact. It wasn't a convenience thing; virtually all WW2-era submachine guns were heavier than their rifle counterparts empty, let alone loaded with ammunition, and carrying spare mags required significantly greater LBE than the rifle webbing of the era.

If we're going by WW2 logic, then the Sergeants should primarily be carrying lasguns, with the option for a lascarbine, shotgun, or some other short-ranged alternative, and some regiments ought to have the option to replace the entire squad's armament with the same.

From a gameplay perspective I'd rather just have the option to give the sergeants lasguns.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/16 23:42:34


Post by: novembermike


 Kanluwen wrote:
Lascarbines totally are within the scope of 40k.

Assault rather than Rapid Fire. Shorter range, same stats otherwise.


It's easy to do but it doesn't really matter. Putting them on sergeants is just additional complexity for no real benefit. If you're adding complexity you should really be adding actual value on the tabletop (which is my actual beef with the las pistol sergeants).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 02:26:45


Post by: BlackoCatto


And if we are being totally WW2 accurate, depending on TO&E the multiple mem could have had at least in the US army BARS, THOMPSON, M3s, or even M1 Carbine on top of shotguns and even a flamethrowers out their in the Pacific.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 02:35:47


Post by: bat702


Would be fun to see a heavier walker for imperial-guard, like go the starcraft way and make a goliath alternative


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 05:05:02


Post by: RegularGuy


How about bringing stuff out from forge world like the Trojan. Or putting Death Korps of Kreig back the way they were before 9th edition took a bunch of units away.

I'd like to hold on to what we have or recover some of what was lost (capability if not models) more than worry about something new.





Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 14:09:31


Post by: Gert


How about a special unit for each main regiment?
Cadian: Make Kasrkin a heavily armed and armoured veteran unit.
Catachan: Catachan Devils, give them good combat weapons or traps.
Steel Legion: Ork Hunters, bonuses against Orks (Duh).
Vostroyans: A unit with better guns or morale maybe?
Valhallans: Conscripts but more?
Mordians: No clue tbh.
Tallarn: Cool desert cavalry maybe.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 14:42:48


Post by: Tycho


 Gert wrote:
How about a special unit for each main regiment?
Cadian: Make Kasrkin a heavily armed and armoured veteran unit.
Catachan: Catachan Devils, give them good combat weapons or traps.
Steel Legion: Ork Hunters, bonuses against Orks (Duh).
Vostroyans: A unit with better guns or morale maybe?
Valhallans: Conscripts but more?
Mordians: No clue tbh.
Tallarn: Cool desert cavalry maybe.


I don't think that does the Valhallans justice. For Mordians - Having read a lot of fluff about them, it would probably be a morale based rule. Something like just a REALLY high LD score or something like that. Could also maybe see a more powerful version of "First Rank, Second Rank".

The point about rebooting the guard is an interesting one. Guard is one of those armies where, if the designers at the time had known how big the game was going to get ("big" in this case refers mainly to all the "stuff" that is available now compared to what was available way back then), they probably wouldn't have designed them this way. I could see one of the current designers going back in time and saying "Yeah - all those different regiments you're drumming up? Don't do those. Trust me, it will make sense in about 15 years."

I don't think the issue is so much Robin C.'s want to have them be a early 20th century force - the rules for the entire game fit more to a Napoleonic style war (Canons, muskets, fix bayonets, CHAAARRRRRGE) anyway, and, if I had to guess, most of the designers probably have a similar fetish. I think the biggest issue is, they built up a massive amount of fluff that they just can't properly support outside of just fluff anymore.

I could almost see something like a "Astra Militarum Reformation" where Bobby G says "Guys, WTF is all this? Vostroyans - how to you hide with those hats? And Steel Legion - you look more like Nurgalite cultists than a IG regiment. No - we need ... A Codex Militarum. We're going to standardize going forward, but Cawl is getting you some good stuff so don't worry." You would, obviously, want to make the fluff reason much less terrible than what I just wrote, but you get the point. In this way, you could begin to standardize things, and bring new gear and squad types in, without invalidating any existing things. With Cadia having been destroyed, you could shift Cadians to a special "elite" slot if you wanted, and then out out a proper looking, updated troop box set that is no longer tied to a specific world, and begin to get away from the old fluff of each regiment looking and fighting like its PDF counter part that is actually tied to the world it was raised on.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 14:49:59


Post by: Kanluwen


Cadia ain't dead yet. There's a looooooooot of stuff going on, it's just the planet itself is gone. The whole Cadian system is still a massive warzone though apparently.

Valhallans, Mordians/Praetorians, Tallarn, and Vostroyans are weird in that they are themselves the 'signature unit' of their planetary regiments thanks to their doctrines/equipment.

Steel Legion are a similar situation, where their doctrine is what makes them special. An Armored Fist Squad would be a better callback to something there, where it's a Chimera taken as part of the squad.

Ork Hunters are off-world regiments effectively 'training' in the jungles there--hence why they're called "Armageddon Ork Hunters" rather than "Steel Legion Ork Hunters"
Scratch this--apparently they've slightly reworked the lore here! Good on them. Still, they're not part of the "Steel Legion" as goofy as that might sound.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 14:58:27


Post by: Gert


I disagree with rebooting Guard and redesigning them to be streamlined. The visual differences between the Guard regiments are an important part of their background, its to show the variety of humanity. Each colony ship took its own culture to the stars and when the Dark Ages came they held onto that to maintain order or just to survive. Yes, SM use the same armour but a Space Wolf is visibly different from a Blood Angel because of their chapter culture. A faceless mass horde of grey armoured humans might be perfect for a unified empire with a powerful leadership but that's not the Imperium. It was the Emperor's Imperium back in the 31st millennium but then this little Horus humbug happened and humanity regressed massively. The reason in lore that Cadians are the face of the Guard is that Cadia was a whole sector dedicated to producing armies to defend the Imperium with something like 8k years of regiments fighting at the fore of humanity's fight for survival. Cadia itself is gone but there are hundreds if not thousands of worlds garrisoned or ruled by Cadian regiments or descendants.

By all means, redo the range but do it in a way that at least the core regiments of the codex get their basic units in plastic with room for a special unit for each to give them some variety and connection to the lore beyond "they wear the right gear".


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 15:02:33


Post by: kirotheavenger


Tycho wrote:
You would, obviously, want to make the fluff reason much less terrible than what I just wrote, but you get the point.

You gave us more detail and a better story than the Primaris reboot, I say GW would be lucky to have you!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I believe the current justification for most regiments looking like Cadians is because Cadians are upheld as the model Guard regiment, and many emulate their equipment and training.




Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 15:09:00


Post by: Gert


Yes, they're the propaganda video Guard and their officers are often used to train newly founded regiments.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 15:38:28


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gert wrote:
I disagree with rebooting Guard and redesigning them to be streamlined. The visual differences between the Guard regiments are an important part of their background, its to show the variety of humanity. Each colony ship took its own culture to the stars and when the Dark Ages came they held onto that to maintain order or just to survive. Yes, SM use the same armour but a Space Wolf is visibly different from a Blood Angel because of their chapter culture. A faceless mass horde of grey armoured humans might be perfect for a unified empire with a powerful leadership but that's not the Imperium. It was the Emperor's Imperium back in the 31st millennium but then this little Horus humbug happened and humanity regressed massively.

The reason for the visual differences between the Guard regiments has very little to do with culture. It has everything to do with logistics. More on that in a minute.

The reason in lore that Cadians are the face of the Guard is that Cadia was a whole sector dedicated to producing armies to defend the Imperium with something like 8k years of regiments fighting at the fore of humanity's fight for survival. Cadia itself is gone but there are hundreds if not thousands of worlds garrisoned or ruled by Cadian regiments or descendants.

The reason in lore that "Cadians are the face of the Guard" is that Cadia was not just a whole sector dedicated to producing armies to defend the Imperium.

It's that whole sectors of the Imperium were devoted to producing material for Cadian regiments to defend the Imperium with. There are entire Forge Worlds devoted to producing material just for Cadian regiments utilizing STCs. The same cannot be said about every single Regiment out there.
By all means, redo the range but do it in a way that at least the core regiments of the codex get their basic units in plastic with room for a special unit for each to give them some variety and connection to the lore beyond "they wear the right gear".

And here's the crux of the matter. The "iconic regiments" of these worlds? They're the iconic ones. We don't know hardly anything about the others.

We know about the Vostroyan Firstborn Regiments, carapace-armored first children of the Vostroyans with heirloom lasguns trying to absolve their world of a stain they can never remove...but what about the Second/Third/Fourthborn?

The so oft-touted "variety" of the Guard is more in the tactical elements of the faction than the aesthetics, or at least it should be. Drop regiments, armoured regiments, stealther regiments, grenadier regiments...that's the variety.
Not the "Silly Hats" vs the "Capes" vs the "Helmets".
That's a result of creative types having been left to run unchecked decades ago when metal squads were the norm and we've been saddled with the effects ever since.
We have a continual mention of how the Munitorum runs things, the Munitorum provides things, etc...and yet somehow there's no standardized uniform across the entirety of the Imperium?
We have continual mentions of things like the major differences being variant lasguns or locally produced variant tanks but people keep grousing that we need the hats or longcoats or whatever.

I highly suggest people grab themselves a copy of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book and see exactly how we can still get differentiation going without needing all the silly kits that people demand. There's a reason why I, personally, keep harping that the need is not for kits but rather units. Lightly armored stealther units, grenadier units, additional Scion elements, additional Officio Prefectus units, and Conscripts going to Auxilia opens up a lot of the 'variety' that people want while still allowing for a cohesive looking army to become a thing.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 15:55:53


Post by: Strg Alt


Catachans needed a choppa for ages. I don't wait for GW anymore to release essential stuff. When I see a nice vehicle unit like a helicopter I buy and include it in my Guard force. Don't worry about scale though as 40K's own scale is pretty inconsistent.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 16:01:55


Post by: kirotheavenger


Valkyries are the Imperial Guard helis.
Complete with hovering and door gunners!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 16:07:01


Post by: Gert


I have the Sabbat Crusade book and yes the regiments have their own tactics but the Volpone are remembered for their distinct look of well dressed rich kids with bad attitudes, the Tanith are remembered for a mix of tactics, and their "barbarian" aesthetic, even the random minor regiments are described by their looks. Even the tank regiments uniforms and colours are described before their tactics. When you ask someone "what defines the Catachans?", they're going to say "they're an army that looks like Rambo". 40k isn't just words on a page, it's a miniatures game with physical products. Products need a design and a variety of designs means you can sell more products to different people. If you have a faction with no differing flavours then nobody is going to play them or buy your product.

As for the Vostroyans, that they are "Firstborn" regiments is the whole point, that's what they are bonded to raise after their shame during the Heresy. It's dumb because the Imperium is dumb.

Dealing with units and kits is about what things are not what you wish they were. In 2nd edition, the Ork Hunters might have been off-worlders trained on Armageddon, they aren't now they're special regiments of Armageddon soldiers often drawn from Steel Legion who fought in the Jungles against feral Orks in between the 2nd and 3rd wars.
What you keep seeming to demand is that every regiment is treated the same which is literally impossible in a miniatures game with limited space for rules and models. "GW can do whatever they want it's their IP". Yes, they can but the limits of reality mean that they have to limit what gets chosen so they can actually make a product. Convert your own regiments, there's plenty of kits. Use the rules they give you in the codex or PA book or make up your own in your gaming group.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 16:22:20


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The level of standardization in doctrine, organization and armament in the Astra Militarum is breathtaking. There is a Tactica Imperium for doctrine. They have standardized Regimental organizations (although with different names). They have common small arms, tanks and artillery (with admitted quirks for different Forgeworlds). Armies on present-day Earth can't even achieve that on a national basis in many cases, never mind forces drawn from hundreds of thousands of worlds.

The diversity of the Astra Militarum has always (well, since 2nd Ed) included variance in uniform to reflect varying cultures. The importance of variance in Regimental/Planetary doctrine has waxed and waned with Editions. I think the 8th Ed Psychic Awakening is the closest we've seen to the 4th Ed (I guess I am thinking the 2003 Codex - was that 3.5?)days in terms of customization.

Do we need new AM infantry units? Not too sure about that. I think we need new baseline plastic infantry kits way more than new units that would be looking for game design space. Unless the new unit is a Recce Jeep designed by the dude who made the GSC bikes with Twin Autocannons and an option for a Missile Launcher. And the crew have scarves and goggles. And maybe a cigar.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 17:16:02


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gert wrote:
I have the Sabbat Crusade book and yes the regiments have their own tactics but the Volpone are remembered for their distinct look of well dressed rich kids with bad attitudes, the Tanith are remembered for a mix of tactics, and their "barbarian" aesthetic, even the random minor regiments are described by their looks.

I'm so glad you brought up the "barbarian aesthetic".

Tanith are described as such by the Volpone, not because they're running around wearing skins and furs but because they have shaggy hair, beards, and facial tattoos.
The Tanith themselves are described, notably, as wearing black fatigues, black armor, helmets, and piebald camouflage capes.
Even the tank regiments uniforms and colours are described before their tactics. When you ask someone "what defines the Catachans?", they're going to say "they're an army that looks like Rambo". 40k isn't just words on a page, it's a miniatures game with physical products. Products need a design and a variety of designs means you can sell more products to different people. If you have a faction with no differing flavours then nobody is going to play them or buy your product.

If someone asks what defines the Catachans and just says "they look like Rambo", then they're missing out on some fundamentals.
Catachans were known as "Baby Ogryn" for a reason. They're supposed to be bigger and bulkier than most humans.


As for the Vostroyans, that they are "Firstborn" regiments is the whole point, that's what they are bonded to raise after their shame during the Heresy. It's dumb because the Imperium is dumb.

Dealing with units and kits is about what things are not what you wish they were. In 2nd edition, the Ork Hunters might have been off-worlders trained on Armageddon, they aren't now they're special regiments of Armageddon soldiers often drawn from Steel Legion who fought in the Jungles against feral Orks in between the 2nd and 3rd wars.

Again, the Steel Legion are a distinct formation within the Armageddon regiments. Ork Hunters are drawn from Armageddon, not the Steel Legion.


What you keep seeming to demand is that every regiment is treated the same which is literally impossible in a miniatures game with limited space for rules and models. "GW can do whatever they want it's their IP". Yes, they can but the limits of reality mean that they have to limit what gets chosen so they can actually make a product. Convert your own regiments, there's plenty of kits. Use the rules they give you in the codex or PA book or make up your own in your gaming group.

What I'm demanding is this:
We actually go to a system that allows for people to represent their factions better. We rework Guardsmen to be the professional soldiery they are supposed to be. We make a clear, delineative distinction between "Conscripts"(aka: "Garbage troopers"), "Veterans", and "Infantrymen".
We expand <Regiment> options to actually include Regimental assets.
Things like scouts with marksmen variant lasguns, camo-cloaks, and 'observer' abilities for artillery/indirect fire weapons dual kitted with jungle fighting specialists. Both would use stripped down lasguns, lighter armor, and things of that nature.
Things like Grenadiers outfitted in heavy armor with hellguns, suspensored heavy stubbers(all of which are things we have in the lore!) with belt feeds, underslung grenade launchers/shotguns, etc.

Then we move and open up some more Auxilia. Conscripts go here. Light if nonexistent armor, autoguns.
Rough Riders go here. We get some nice, feral looking Rough Riders. Bring Mogul Khamir back and have some fun with it!
Smart move as well would actually be to have Conscripts be a double kit allowing for a Valhallan/DKoK styled autogun+ratty coats+helmets or a more Feral World-inspired "Barbarian in a uniform" with extra bits for pistols+CCWs.

Now we move into Militarum Tempestus:
A dedicated Tempestor Prime kit. That art of the Volpone Blueblood in the Sabbat Worlds revamped book is perfect for a Tempestor Prime.

And that all is before we get into things like "making voxcasters actually matter" and "Orders not just being shouting".


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 17:28:34


Post by: generalchaos34


The guard really don't need a "new" unit as much as they need a model line refresh akin to Dark Eldar or necrons. Some classics can stick around like chimeras, Russes, etc. The Vehicles are for the most part solid. The infnatry is where the issue is at. Ideally you could get away with this by having 2 infantry boxes. One can be a greatcloak style and the other more of a "modern" cadian body armor style. These would have some number of head or arm swaps inside to make the new unit. It seems a bit pie in the sky but considering ALL of the options in the exceptional Battle Sister Box its all possible. The great cloak box would be Valhallan/Steel Legion/Vostroyan (maybe mordian?) and the modern box would be Tallarn/Cadian/Catachan. Its not ideal but its better than the alternative for sure!

Another option would be a complete visual overhaul of ALL of the regiments. This would be like the Primaris thing and would be a whole new set of standard armor/lsaguns for the guard. IE it would all now be Terra/Cawl Pattern guard gear giving the army a new and cohesive visual aesthetic. This could give all the regiments the ability to have a cohesive look and you can just purchase an uprgade pack for your specific regiment. You lose some of that special flair of your vostroyans and mordians but you you would also gain a cohesive and affordable army (not that us guard players cares about affordability).

The last option seems more likely for GW as a company because it means they wont have to have multiple product lines.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 17:36:22


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


catbarf wrote:And I can't remember what book it was from, but I read a novel that featured an honest-to-god call for indirect fire to cover a bounding advance against an emplaced position, and it's going to bother the hell out of me until I find it again.
I think that could be from 'First and Only', where a battalion of Jantine Patricians uses indirect fire to not only cover an advance, but also to create shell-holes in the hillside in order to get some protection against the platoon of Tanith they're friendly firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I have the Sabbat Crusade book and yes the regiments have their own tactics but the Volpone are remembered for their distinct look of well dressed rich kids with bad attitudes, the Tanith are remembered for a mix of tactics, and their "barbarian" aesthetic, even the random minor regiments are described by their looks.

I'm so glad you brought up the "barbarian aesthetic".

Tanith are described as such by the Volpone, not because they're running around wearing skins and furs but because they have shaggy hair, beards, and facial tattoos.
The Tanith themselves are described, notably, as wearing black fatigues, black armor, helmets, and piebald camouflage capes.
Yeah, but I don't see what that changes about their more rugged features. Wearing furs and skins isn't the only hallmark of "barbarism" - although even the idea that excessive facial hair or even wearing furs is "barbaric" is a language holdout that needs to die off. Barbarian might not be the right word, but they definitely do have more of a woodsman/highlander vibe, which I think is the point here.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 17:45:11


Post by: catbarf


Kanluwen, I know we've butted heads before about redesigning Guard, but I have to say: If I had to pick between the current style of a bunch of culturally distinct forces that all play roughly the same on the table, or a single unified/rebooted Guard aesthetic with new units and rules that permitted the player to choose from a variety of playstyles as you describe, I'd take the latter in a heartbeat.

I like the historical mish-mash of influences in the Guard- and I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for new kits to have interchangeable parts to support a high degree of visual variation, like generalchaos34 said- but my personal issue with the Guard right now is how their army composition is so bland, regardless of regiment. You get troops and tanks and that's about it.

If a new ruleset gave us the ability to have conscript hordes, stealthy light infantry, tank companies, Stormtrooper battalions, drop troops, motorized/mechanized infantry, grizzled veterans, or fast attack a la Desert Rats- all equally viable and supported- then personally I wouldn't mind whatever conceptual/visual revisions were needed to get there.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 17:50:37


Post by: kurhanik


 Kanluwen wrote:
[
And here's the crux of the matter. The "iconic regiments" of these worlds? They're the iconic ones. We don't know hardly anything about the others.

We know about the Vostroyan Firstborn Regiments, carapace-armored first children of the Vostroyans with heirloom lasguns trying to absolve their world of a stain they can never remove...but what about the Second/Third/Fourthborn?

The so oft-touted "variety" of the Guard is more in the tactical elements of the faction than the aesthetics, or at least it should be. Drop regiments, armoured regiments, stealther regiments, grenadier regiments...that's the variety.
Not the "Silly Hats" vs the "Capes" vs the "Helmets".
That's a result of creative types having been left to run unchecked decades ago when metal squads were the norm and we've been saddled with the effects ever since.
We have a continual mention of how the Munitorum runs things, the Munitorum provides things, etc...and yet somehow there's no standardized uniform across the entirety of the Imperium?
We have continual mentions of things like the major differences being variant lasguns or locally produced variant tanks but people keep grousing that we need the hats or longcoats or whatever.

I highly suggest people grab themselves a copy of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book and see exactly how we can still get differentiation going without needing all the silly kits that people demand. There's a reason why I, personally, keep harping that the need is not for kits but rather units. Lightly armored stealther units, grenadier units, additional Scion elements, additional Officio Prefectus units, and Conscripts going to Auxilia opens up a lot of the 'variety' that people want while still allowing for a cohesive looking army to become a thing.


Noting I would really like kits for the abandoned regiments still (and for them to be at least somewhat interchangeable for kit bashing), I definitely agree with the fact that the focus on diversity shouldn't be based on homeworld, but more on regimental doctrine/type. All Steel Legion are from Armageddon but not all Armageddons are Steel Legion, and they aren't the only force in the galaxy that specialized in mechanized infantry. Mordians aren't the only parade drill uniform type either, etc.

On top of this, depending on the warzone, the soldiers might simply be in different uniform. I vaguely remember in one of the Cain books he notes that while everybody pictures Valhallans as always in their heavy coats, that is merely their cold weather gear and that they have lighter uniform for warmer combat arenas.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 18:43:16


Post by: Gert


Just because the Rules say that Mordians are good at drills or Steel Legion are good at mechanised warfare, doesn't mean your regiment isn't. Just use those rules. You have the doctrines there already they just use well-known names so new players can know the difference and so GW isn't making boring generic miniatures and can put more copyrights on things they want so they can make more money. Your regiment uses loads of Chimeras but wears Cadian gear? Cool, use the Steel Legion rules. Do they wear parade uniforms but are excellent at ambush warfare? Cool, use Tallarn rules. Nobody cares what rules you use in combination with models, give a lore excuse and play the game. I use what is essentially a horde of chaos cultists but switch Regimental Doctrines depending on what I want to use and I've yet to have a complaint. This whole argument of basing the army off of doctrine, not regiment doesn't matter because unless you're doing a competitive tournament with a Catachan army and saying they're Mordian, who cares what your models look like?
40k is a miniature wargame, use your human-sized models to represent whatever tactics you want.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 19:06:46


Post by: kurhanik


 Gert wrote:
Just because the Rules say that Mordians are good at drills or Steel Legion are good at mechanised warfare, doesn't mean your regiment isn't. Just use those rules. You have the doctrines there already they just use well-known names so new players can know the difference and so GW isn't making boring generic miniatures and can put more copyrights on things they want so they can make more money. Your regiment uses loads of Chimeras but wears Cadian gear? Cool, use the Steel Legion rules. Do they wear parade uniforms but are excellent at ambush warfare? Cool, use Tallarn rules. Nobody cares what rules you use in combination with models, give a lore excuse and play the game. I use what is essentially a horde of chaos cultists but switch Regimental Doctrines depending on what I want to use and I've yet to have a complaint. This whole argument of basing the army off of doctrine, not regiment doesn't matter because unless you're doing a competitive tournament with a Catachan army and saying they're Mordian, who cares what your models look like?
40k is a miniature wargame, use your human-sized models to represent whatever tactics you want.


I'm well aware of that, and my own guard is a mishmash of very basic kit bashed Cadians, Steel Legion, and the old Stormtrooper models. But from a lore/fluff perspective of the army, it would be nice to be able to say "It is a Mechanized Infantry division with a dedicated Stormtrooper detachment" as opposed to say "Its Steel Legion" or "its Cadian". It also pulls away the "planet of hats" look of the lore, where even in this thread people noted that the primary tactic of Valhalla is human wave / pop culture Soviets when that was mainly Chenkov and a reference here and there.

Compare to the rpgs, namely Only War, where you could pick homeworld, standard doctrine, standard kit, etc, and the named famous regiments were given as examples with builds based on the different options. Not saying fully doable considering rpgs have far more room for customization than a war game, but being able to say "my regiment are an Ice World Airborne Regiment" comes with less baggage than saying "Valhallan". Plus it makes it sound less like there are only 4 or 5 important worlds in the Imperium.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 19:10:44


Post by: generalchaos34


 Gert wrote:
Just because the Rules say that Mordians are good at drills or Steel Legion are good at mechanised warfare, doesn't mean your regiment isn't. Just use those rules. You have the doctrines there already they just use well-known names so new players can know the difference and so GW isn't making boring generic miniatures and can put more copyrights on things they want so they can make more money. Your regiment uses loads of Chimeras but wears Cadian gear? Cool, use the Steel Legion rules. Do they wear parade uniforms but are excellent at ambush warfare? Cool, use Tallarn rules. Nobody cares what rules you use in combination with models, give a lore excuse and play the game. I use what is essentially a horde of chaos cultists but switch Regimental Doctrines depending on what I want to use and I've yet to have a complaint. This whole argument of basing the army off of doctrine, not regiment doesn't matter because unless you're doing a competitive tournament with a Catachan army and saying they're Mordian, who cares what your models look like?
40k is a miniature wargame, use your human-sized models to represent whatever tactics you want.


I don't think theres an argument that this is how people have been playing. I think they are pining for the old 4th? edition codex where you picked doctrines instead of regiments. Regardless of that Regiments of Renown, Chapters, etc are simply how things are done these days (they aren't going back). We still have this to some degree with the build your own regiment tool anyways.

In the best scenario I think guard should get something along the lines of a "super chapter tactics" for guard for being an all guard army that is some sort of bonus based on your 'doctrine" i.e. you choose Infantry, Artillery, Mechanized etc and that can give the baseline of what your army does on top of your regimental abilities that are more for flavor.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 19:20:25


Post by: Grumblewartz


I think it would be cool to have a close combat unit for guard that builds on the fact that they are mostly expendable chaff and builds from there. I was thinking a combat unit with something like taser pikes (billhooks) - some techno late-medieval equivalent - mixed with power mauls and or axes. The idea being that the polearms/pikes are used to knock down or pin powerful enemy creatures (think a tyranid warrior, perhaps an ork/nob/etc) then the guys/gals with the mauls and axes finish the job.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/17 20:55:53


Post by: BlackoCatto


Once again, just look to WGA for what you could for Guard.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 04:40:06


Post by: waefre_1


So long as we're talking entirely new kits, I'd second getting some proper light armor (some form of armored car would be great) or an Imperial Trukk (ie. barebones battle taxi with heavy stubbers as the main weapon, mostly so I can live the LRDG dream but also so we can have a transport that's focused on just being a transport and can be costed appropriately).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 09:58:04


Post by: kirotheavenger


I would love them to return to the regimental doctrine system, but I know it won't happen.
So in the reasonable wish-listing I'd like them to expand upon Veterans and Conscripts, and expanding the order system into something more interesting.
At the moment it's just another way of giving buffs/rerolls, which used to be fairly unique but is now just par for the course.
Give us Command Chimeras, maybe a vox network mechanic, etc.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 10:30:30


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Controversial... I would like the return of platoons for troops choices, something not many people would agree with I'm sure


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 10:38:11


Post by: kirotheavenger


I'm kind of neutral on platoons.
I can see the appeal, but I don't really see any need. They don't really fit with the current detachment/data sheet theme imo.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 10:57:57


Post by: endlesswaltz123


They do, 1 lieutenant and 2x squads minimum up to 5 (or 6, can't remember) per troops choice. For every 2x squads you can then include a heavy or special weapon squad etc without taking up a detachment choice, for every platoon you unlock an armoured fist squad or veteran squad that will take up another troop slot etc.

I always just liked it as it forced a base amount of infantry and some structure to the guard. Again, I'm sure many would dislike that return but well, if any faction needs overbearing organisation forced upon it, it's the guard.

Really though, truly... 3 different boxes of infantry (with corresponding command, special and heavy weapon squads), that can make at least 2-3 different regiments each via head, weapon and maybe arm/torso swap in extreme cases, and generic upgrade sprues for veterens. You then have 6-9 different regiment aesthetic styles, everything else can be fulfilled within rules and doctrines to add flavour to the guard then, no need for jump packs etc... All the flavour right there.

*Long coat style, that can fulfil DKoK, Valhalla etc
*Standard shortcoat/flak armour design, this could be the most varied and realistically could fulfil cadian, mordian, praetorian, tallarn even, maybe elysian drop troops etc... Obviously with the amount of different heads required, some of this should be fulfilled with separate upgrade sprues but you get the point. Even steel legion if done correctly (long booted legs being the major design change, though I suppose the same is needed for mordian and praetorian anyway)
*Light infantry, fulfil catachan and tanith style. i.e. cloaks, helmets and covered arms, or not.

Then the nature of the components in the box would allow for diverse self-created regiments.

Some redesign of the regiments should be expected and most likely required to fulfil the above, but as long as the flavour is right it would be all good and it fulfils everyones needs.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 14:45:39


Post by: Gert


Totally agree with you on the infantry redesign ideas you've had. I'd rather have all the basic regiments with slight design changes in plastic than 2 outdated plastic kits, 1 metal, and none for the rest.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 15:04:43


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


A box with ten figures that offered some variation in Regimental dress would be awesome. I am not sure if GW sees much there, though, as they have likely figured out that 3rd parties would parasite. We can dream though!

I have to say that I found the Platoon as a Troops Choice a negative design feature from 3rd until the 8th Ed reboot. At low points levels you ended up with three Command Squads and four Infantry Squads. Kinda defeated the purpose. The 2nd Edition method worked just fine.

Heck, a Patrol Detachment is a Platoon if you call the Captain a Lieutenant. The Battalion Detachment works just fine as a "Company." I'd like to see Heavy Weapons Squads either freed from the rule of 3 or linked to Infantry Squads in number.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 15:27:20


Post by: Gert


I think the whole 3rd party argument is a difficult one because loads of companies already make not-40k-Guard. Anvil Industries and Victoria Minis are well known for their work and GW definitely knows about them because they all go to trade shows. For example:

Victoria Miniatures Tannenburg Fusilier
Spoiler:

Games Workshop Mordian
Spoiler:


There's only so much GW can copyright and uniforms based on historical/modern equivalents are probably not on that list, which is why we don't hear about GW going after Anvil and Victoria like they did Chapter House in the past.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 16:10:22


Post by: generalchaos34


 Gert wrote:
I think the whole 3rd party argument is a difficult one because loads of companies already make not-40k-Guard. Anvil Industries and Victoria Minis are well known for their work and GW definitely knows about them because they all go to trade shows. For example:

Victoria Miniatures Tannenburg Fusilier
Spoiler:

Games Workshop Mordian
Spoiler:


There's only so much GW can copyright and uniforms based on historical/modern equivalents are probably not on that list, which is why we don't hear about GW going after Anvil and Victoria like they did Chapter House in the past.


The major problem GW is facing is that they are NOT releasing these kits right now. Victoria and Anvil are making a superior product at a similar price point to what they are offering now. GW might consider themselves so far behind the curve that they have given up instead of trying to tackle the problem. Besides how can people consider them to be parasites when they are making a product GW doesn't even bother with anymore!

As for the platoon argument....I think it would be a great way to clean up the guard rules and really make them work better in lieu of new kits. IE You keep it at LT x 1 and IS x2 as the base (maybe command squads but that may become clunky) and it unlocks a few free heavy weapon team and special weapon team slots. This would free up your Heavy support slots for tanks and fun things. As it stands now Guard is an army that has to take multiple detachments in order to field anything close to successful and they are being punished in the CP department for the sins of the Loyal 32. It would be even cooler if orders worked down from the LT into his own platoon or they got a bonus for getting orders from their corresponding LT. I also think it would be reasonable for a SM Captain style restriction on Company commanders if they force you to take lots of LTs. This would also mean that moving Veterans back into troops would make sense because you are paying more for troops that do not come with the perks of free slots.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 16:15:16


Post by: Kanluwen


"Superior product" is debatable.

Platoon was a horrible rule and good frigging riddance to it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 16:47:49


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


My use of "parasite" was, perhaps, uncharitable. My point was that GW may see little point in refreshing those 2nd Ed Regimental lines as they know that others can do so. Do they give mold design time to a line that 3rd parties are filling or something that they have more control over? I don't want to derail this thread with a Chapterhouse discussion! I am just trying to think realistically. The plastic infantry really need a reboot! (or regreatcoat!)


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 17:07:57


Post by: generalchaos34


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My use of "parasite" was, perhaps, uncharitable. My point was that GW may see little point in refreshing those 2nd Ed Regimental lines as they know that others can do so. Do they give mold design time to a line that 3rd parties are filling or something that they have more control over? I don't want to derail this thread with a Chapterhouse discussion! I am just trying to think realistically. The plastic infantry really need a reboot! (or regreatcoat!)


Oh I wasn't meaning to go into that of course! I was merely pointing out that GW has not only dropped the ball on regiments they loaded it into a cannon and fired off into space at this point. We really need some sort of new infantry since the most recent was introduced 20 years ago. I have somewhere in the magnitude of 300 cadian guardsman and I am very willing to dump them for some nice greatcloak guys from GW. I also have some chinacast Valhallans and a whole mess of Anvil Valhallans to boot (I really need to get some of Vics Female Valhallans as well!).

As I've said before I would love to see a general reimagining of the line even if its slight tweaks to make it in line with whats going on with Primaris Marines. A cawlification I guess you could say to modernize the look of the armor and weapons of the standard guardsman (and thusly differentiating them from the inevitable Traitor Guard release).It would make even more sense for it to be piecemeal in regiments as they are going to get the new gear as their old equipment breaks or is lost and all new regiments will be equipped with new gear. It would also allow for new types of units to be cycled in as they will represent the "new guard" vs the "old guard" that are being phased out much like the marines. This is a nice visual metaphor for progress in 40k and could set up all kinds of interesting plots with traditionalists.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 17:41:35


Post by: Kcalehc


 Gert wrote:
I think the whole 3rd party argument is a difficult one because loads of companies already make not-40k-Guard. Anvil Industries and Victoria Minis are well known for their work and GW definitely knows about them because they all go to trade shows. For example:

Victoria Miniatures Tannenburg Fusilier
Spoiler:

Games Workshop Mordian
Spoiler:


There's only so much GW can copyright and uniforms based on historical/modern equivalents are probably not on that list, which is why we don't hear about GW going after Anvil and Victoria like they did Chapter House in the past.


Which is why GW really could benefit from introducing one or more new regiments, that are unique and not historically based, and hit the price point just at or below the competitors; creating a protectable product, and quite possibly draw that business back into itself.

There's 'a million planets' in the Imperium, and we have what, a couple dozen or so regiments that have any amount of book/picture space? If GMan brings in a new 'Imperial Army', with new uniforms and all, that's almost a whole new range or two they could open up - without really invalidating anyones current AM collection (well maybe bits of it, but that's not new). Or the Ultramar Auxilia becomes the new standard look, instead of Cadian.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 17:47:59


Post by: Flinty


bat702 wrote:
Would be fun to see a heavier walker for imperial-guard, like go the starcraft way and make a goliath alternative


Goliath online! I should really paint it one of these days.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 18:10:51


Post by: generalchaos34


 Flinty wrote:
bat702 wrote:
Would be fun to see a heavier walker for imperial-guard, like go the starcraft way and make a goliath alternative


Goliath online! I should really paint it one of these days.



I love it, that's pretty damn good! Unfortunately my only issue is that walkers are an "admech thing" just like how Marines are the new "hover guys" I think Guard needs to stay in the realm of tread Tanks so that they can find their Niche so to speak. With that a new tank would be pretty great. Maybe loaded up with some new Cawl trickery


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 18:16:45


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


That is a cool machine!

Regarding infantry kits, if GW Community announced tomorrow that generalchaos34 was taking the lead on the new plastic Astra Militarum kit I would break my Lenten fast and raise a glass! Some very sound ideas. (Just find a way to sneak in my Recce Jeep!)


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 18:33:21


Post by: Kanluwen


Eh..."heavy walkers" that would be bipedal feel unnecessary.

They'd be quadrupedal, maybe. The better option to wishlist for though are Rapiers.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 18:55:07


Post by: endlesswaltz123


As nice as that victoria miniatures mordian is there, it is still far off the quality and capability of modern GW, and that is their reasoning and justification to do it, they can make a superior product (with built in variation), and people will buy it.

The necromunda kits are so good that I am personally excited at the prospect of new guard plastics, I think they are certainly coming, and I'd hope by the end of 2021, but most likely 2022-2023....


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 19:06:27


Post by: BlackoCatto


Yes, FW is known for having perfectly... good...res.. HAHAHAHA


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 19:09:25


Post by: Gert


I wasn't meaning to imply that those companies were necessarily better than GW, that's all down to preference, but rather with the quality they have been putting out recently why not redo their famous regiments or make some new ones like others are suggesting. But alas, Marines must take precedence.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 19:53:18


Post by: endlesswaltz123


 Gert wrote:
I wasn't meaning to imply that those companies were necessarily better than GW, that's all down to preference, but rather with the quality they have been putting out recently why not redo their famous regiments or make some new ones like others are suggesting. But alas, Marines must take precedence.


Oh no, they are certainly superior to the old metal/resin models from way back in second edition, I'm just suggesting that GW, with their plastic tech and design capability are capable of making those miniatures look inferior. Like I said, I like them, but they are not as nice as any necromunda plastic kit, and that is where the hope for new plastic guard is.

I'm not really fussed about FW and it's standards, the only regiment I would have ever bought from there is the DKoK and well like I said, I think we will get plastic guard and GW would be absolutely CRAZY not to make DKoK one of the regiment options.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 20:02:05


Post by: generalchaos34


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
That is a cool machine!

Regarding infantry kits, if GW Community announced tomorrow that generalchaos34 was taking the lead on the new plastic Astra Militarum kit I would break my Lenten fast and raise a glass! Some very sound ideas. (Just find a way to sneak in my Recce Jeep!)


Awwww thanks!!!! I dont know what the new design should look like per se but it should mirror the old style but with a lot cleaner look. Basically what Mark X has done to marines. Its smoother lines, less fiddly bits, and a homage to older designs, maybe even have shoulder pads! As there is no more cadia it makes little sense for there to be a reliance on Cadians or Cadia pattern and going forward you can reforge Cadians as elite regiment instead of the "oh gawd they're everywhere" regiment that they had turned into for so long. We need a new pattern that dosen't have to be tied to space russians, or space vietnam guys, or anything "generic". Honestly if they took the design elements of the euclidian start striders (long coat and armor) and blended it with better helmets it would be a pretty good look!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 20:19:32


Post by: kirotheavenger


Please, any more Cawl crap and I'm gonna hurl.
I absolutely do not want a Guard reboot of that.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 20:41:34


Post by: endlesswaltz123


If we are talking about modernising the guard aesthetic, and say cadians started to look like this, then I'm all for it, they look badass, updated but not too far away from the source material (Though I think this may be more an elysian or kharskin, but you get the idea, this is what cadians should look like really, maybe lacking the hell gun and heavier armour):



However, in the attempt to modernise the kits, and thus the lore and we lose out on the likes of these regiments, or only get kits looking like the above then I'm not for it (Not that any of these would be made in kits but you get the idea):







I think the easy thing to say is, I'm heavily invested in the diversity of the guard and it's kits, if we end up with only modern special forces looking kinda guys (and girls, that would be nice tbh across the kits), and rules that followed that modern army kind of role, then I'm not for it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 20:45:56


Post by: Kanluwen


 generalchaos34 wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
That is a cool machine!

Regarding infantry kits, if GW Community announced tomorrow that generalchaos34 was taking the lead on the new plastic Astra Militarum kit I would break my Lenten fast and raise a glass! Some very sound ideas. (Just find a way to sneak in my Recce Jeep!)


Awwww thanks!!!! I dont know what the new design should look like per se but it should mirror the old style but with a lot cleaner look. Basically what Mark X has done to marines. Its smoother lines, less fiddly bits, and a homage to older designs, maybe even have shoulder pads! As there is no more cadia it makes little sense for there to be a reliance on Cadians or Cadia pattern and going forward you can reforge Cadians as elite regiment instead of the "oh gawd they're everywhere" regiment that they had turned into for so long.

The epic Psychic Awakening series continues with War of the Spider. This campaign book features a host of new rules for Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Talons of the Emperor and Officio Assassinorum. It also includes background on the web that Fabius Bile spins around the devastated Cadian system as he is pursued by the Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Sisters of Silence and multiple teams of Assassins. Will they catch him, or will he escape to continue his twisted experiments?

It helps to remember that Cadia was not just a planet. It also helps to recall that there's still fighting going on there.

Additionally, Cadia was not the "they're everywhere regiment" because of Cadia existing. It's because they raised an ungodly amount of troops that they kept in fighting shape. Those regiments would settle other planets(Brimlock Dragoons, for example, are a Cadian Regiment for all intents and purposes). Their wargear was so common because again, as I said earlier:
You have entire systems devoted to churning out war material for a single system. You had entire Forge Worlds devoted to producing lasguns, ammunition, armor, etc for Cadian Regiments. The excess could go towards little podunk worlds.

We need a new pattern that dosen't have to be tied to space russians, or space vietnam guys, or anything "generic". Honestly if they took the design elements of the euclidian start striders (long coat and armor) and blended it with better helmets it would be a pretty good look!

God no. First off, they're not "longcoats". Second off...they're a Blanche design. Blanche designs do not appeal to everyone nor do they actually look good as a whole army.

His specialty is effectively one-off designs that someone else makes look better before it becomes a feasible concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If we are talking about modernising the guard aesthetic, and say cadians started to look like this, then I'm all for it, they look badass, updated but not too far away from the source material (Though I think this may be more an elysian or kharskin, but you get the idea, this is what cadians should look like really, maybe lacking the hell gun and heavier armour):

Spoiler:


However, in the attempt to modernise the kits, and thus the lore and we lose out on the likes of these regiments, or only get kits looking like the above then I'm not for it (Not that any of these would be made in kits but you get the idea):
Spoiler:



[img]https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/4/4a/Savlar_Chem-Dog_Trooper_2.png/revision/latest?cb=201604
03224426[/img]



I think the easy thing to say is, I'm heavily invested in the diversity of the guard and it's kits, if we end up with only modern special forces looking kinda guys (and girls, that would be nice tbh across the kits), and rules that followed that modern army kind of role, then I'm not for it.

Honestly, we don't really "lose anything" from the Praetorians going away or getting a modern look. Their whole schtick was the "Wot wot!" moustaches and helmets. As long as those elements get kept, you're golden.

By the by, the first design is a Raven Guard Auxiliary circa Horus Heresy. Or at least that's what the art was when I'd first seen it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 20:59:49


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Praetorians are just an example, though if they were made, I'd buy and paint a platoon just for the nostalgia, I went to the Gamesday with the Massacre at Big Toof River when I was 11ish, and me and my old man fell in love with them, so they have some serious nostalgia for me.

However, if I could only pick four regiments to be made, it would be better looking Cadians (amazing that the pic I posted is raven guard auxiliarys, but that is how they should look anyway), DKoK, Tallarn and Mordians. I like the catachans but prefer the other regiments more.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 21:15:01


Post by: novembermike


I wouldn't mind losing the 19th century designs like Mordians, Vostroyans and Praetorians. A lot of them are just too similar to actual historical minis and were only there in the first place so GW could reuse existing products. That doesn't fit the current GW business model so it's probably unrealistic for it to stick around.

In return it would be nice to get 3-4 major designs as new sculpts. Cadian style near future military, Steel Legion greatcoats, Catachans and a Starstriders style retrofuturistic design all seem interesting.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 22:03:47


Post by: generalchaos34


novembermike wrote:
I wouldn't mind losing the 19th century designs like Mordians, Vostroyans and Praetorians. A lot of them are just too similar to actual historical minis and were only there in the first place so GW could reuse existing products. That doesn't fit the current GW business model so it's probably unrealistic for it to stick around.

In return it would be nice to get 3-4 major designs as new sculpts. Cadian style near future military, Steel Legion greatcoats, Catachans and a Starstriders style retrofuturistic design all seem interesting.


I think to top it off some of those minis have some.....problematic cultural issues *eyes Praetorians* that is probably left unmade for the next generation of models. Theres a lot of great design elements out there for some retro future stuff they can steal from over half the other product lines for inspiration and the whole line just needs a fresh look to it


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 22:14:04


Post by: BlackoCatto


We lose everything if you wont even stand for our Praetorians.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/18 23:03:47


Post by: novembermike


TangoTwoBravo wrote:

I have to say that I found the Platoon as a Troops Choice a negative design feature from 3rd until the 8th Ed reboot. At low points levels you ended up with three Command Squads and four Infantry Squads. Kinda defeated the purpose. The 2nd Edition method worked just fine.

Heck, a Patrol Detachment is a Platoon if you call the Captain a Lieutenant. The Battalion Detachment works just fine as a "Company." I'd like to see Heavy Weapons Squads either freed from the rule of 3 or linked to Infantry Squads in number.


I wouldn't mind platoons if they were reasonably open. 1-3 Infantry Squads, 0-1 heavy weapons teams and a 0-1 LT character that doesn't give away VP as a character seems pretty reasonable. I wouldn't give veteran squads or anything too interesting but it makes sense as a way to fill out slots reasonably.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 00:03:11


Post by: generalchaos34


novembermike wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:

I have to say that I found the Platoon as a Troops Choice a negative design feature from 3rd until the 8th Ed reboot. At low points levels you ended up with three Command Squads and four Infantry Squads. Kinda defeated the purpose. The 2nd Edition method worked just fine.

Heck, a Patrol Detachment is a Platoon if you call the Captain a Lieutenant. The Battalion Detachment works just fine as a "Company." I'd like to see Heavy Weapons Squads either freed from the rule of 3 or linked to Infantry Squads in number.


I wouldn't mind platoons if they were reasonably open. 1-3 Infantry Squads, 0-1 heavy weapons teams and a 0-1 LT character that doesn't give away VP as a character seems pretty reasonable. I wouldn't give veteran squads or anything too interesting but it makes sense as a way to fill out slots reasonably.


I think it would definitely have to be minimum 2 for the infantry squads and min 1 for the LT, that way the other free slots are justifiable in balance. There should also be some sort of bonus for doing things within the platoon, like extended range on orders for the LT for her own troops. We would also need to have another troop choice to fill in the blanks or better utilize conscripts as a garbage filler unit. I'd like to see veterans return to the troop slot so that they are an alternative albeit a more expensive one with less flair and no free slots. Another interesting idea would be to make the command squad upgrades into characters that only affect its own platoon, ie Medics, Vox operators, and standard bearers. That would add some utility and also make those weak as hell units worth something.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 00:29:18


Post by: novembermike


You could just let people take infantry squads on their own as a troop choice in addition to taking it as part of a platoon. And yeah, I'd just make those guys minor characters like a plasmacyte and make them only work on their platoon. I'd probably avoid making them actual characters but just give them a rule where they can't be targeted if they're close to their platoon but they also can't take objectives or perform actions.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 02:03:18


Post by: PenitentJake


novembermike wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:

I have to say that I found the Platoon as a Troops Choice a negative design feature from 3rd until the 8th Ed reboot. At low points levels you ended up with three Command Squads and four Infantry Squads. Kinda defeated the purpose. The 2nd Edition method worked just fine.

Heck, a Patrol Detachment is a Platoon if you call the Captain a Lieutenant. The Battalion Detachment works just fine as a "Company." I'd like to see Heavy Weapons Squads either freed from the rule of 3 or linked to Infantry Squads in number.


I wouldn't mind platoons if they were reasonably open. 1-3 Infantry Squads, 0-1 heavy weapons teams and a 0-1 LT character that doesn't give away VP as a character seems pretty reasonable. I wouldn't give veteran squads or anything too interesting but it makes sense as a way to fill out slots reasonably.


This is one of the things I want. I've designed a campaign where there are 9 settlements. There is a small garrison in each settlement, each of which has a functional detachment. And therein lies the problem. Because I'm talking small detachments- the idea being that all 9 of those detachments could probably squeeze into two brigades for a large battle. But that means 9, count'em 9! Company commanders. Which is craptastic- because a company level commander is a big deal.

But someone at GW decided Platoon commanders HAD to be elites... So 9 company commanders it is, no matter how unrealistic that as given the number of assets under command. We need a lesser HQ choice. All factions do- you can't tell an accurate story about military forces without a hierarchical command structure. As a narrative guy, stories are all I care about. Giving up points for a Platoon Commander HQ? Don't care- he NEEDS to be there because the troops stationed there NEED a commander, but two squads of 10, a Russ and 3 pack of Sentinels do not justify the presence of a Company Commander.

If him being there makes the guard lose, then the guard loses.

But the story wins. And for me, personally, that's all that has ever mattered.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 02:22:15


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


PenitentJake wrote:
novembermike wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:

I have to say that I found the Platoon as a Troops Choice a negative design feature from 3rd until the 8th Ed reboot. At low points levels you ended up with three Command Squads and four Infantry Squads. Kinda defeated the purpose. The 2nd Edition method worked just fine.

Heck, a Patrol Detachment is a Platoon if you call the Captain a Lieutenant. The Battalion Detachment works just fine as a "Company." I'd like to see Heavy Weapons Squads either freed from the rule of 3 or linked to Infantry Squads in number.


I wouldn't mind platoons if they were reasonably open. 1-3 Infantry Squads, 0-1 heavy weapons teams and a 0-1 LT character that doesn't give away VP as a character seems pretty reasonable. I wouldn't give veteran squads or anything too interesting but it makes sense as a way to fill out slots reasonably.


This is one of the things I want. I've designed a campaign where there are 9 settlements. There is a small garrison in each settlement, each of which has a functional detachment. And therein lies the problem. Because I'm talking small detachments- the idea being that all 9 of those detachments could probably squeeze into two brigades for a large battle. But that means 9, count'em 9! Company commanders. Which is craptastic- because a company level commander is a big deal.

But someone at GW decided Platoon commanders HAD to be elites... So 9 company commanders it is, no matter how unrealistic that as given the number of assets under command. We need a lesser HQ choice. All factions do- you can't tell an accurate story about military forces without a hierarchical command structure. As a narrative guy, stories are all I care about. Giving up points for a Platoon Commander HQ? Don't care- he NEEDS to be there because the troops stationed there NEED a commander, but two squads of 10, a Russ and 3 pack of Sentinels do not justify the presence of a Company Commander.

If him being there makes the guard lose, then the guard loses.

But the story wins. And for me, personally, that's all that has ever mattered.


A cool concept. My suggestion is to stay in Narrative mode and have Platoon Commanders as HQ choices for your campaign? You're in command!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 03:40:17


Post by: PenitentJake


That's the plan if GW doesn't come through with a lesser HQ.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 06:32:34


Post by: Dolnikan


As an infantry guard player, I really, really want platoons back. Right now, there are lots of tax units that have to be taken to even bring a dozen squads and because of the current detachment structure, that means taking a ton of units and HQs that I don't want. Of course, there should also be an option to be less infantry intensive, but that could come in the shape of veteran or armoured fist squads.

Oh, and something should be done to make command squads more than just one-use special weapons teams. Perhaps it could be a squad combined with the lieutenant that together has the character rule. Or truly make a mess and make all individual members characters and make Assassinate even better against Guard.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 09:39:29


Post by: endlesswaltz123


If platoons were 2-6 and required a platoon commander, and each platoon allows an unlock of an armoured fist, conscript squad or veteran squad to count as a troop choice for detachment purposes, what are we looking at point wise...

At current points, bare bones.

*25pts Platoon commander (no command squad)
*55pts infantry squad
*55pts infantry squad

135pts per platoon.

Then cheapest is a veteran squad.

*65pts Vet squad

Additional platoon to reach battalion troops detachment requirement.

*135pts

**335pts in total.

It's really not that bad pts wise in 2000pts, 17%ish, and you could have specialist platoons for certain army styles (armoured fist platoons if you want, veteran platoons, engineering platoons, assault platoons, combinations of all of them etc etc).

You also now have access to heavy weapon squads, special weapon squads etc that do not take up valuable slots elsewhere. Heck, give them objective secured for being part of the platoon, make platoons amazing with their rules, make guardsmen worth 5.5pts per model... I'd even be open to 1x auxiliaries being attached without detachment cost from a certain list, like specialist officers, maybe ogryns. Maybe the second platoon could be a more specialist platoon like a full heavy weapon or special weapon platoon, scion platoon, it's just accessed via taking a standard platoon. The scope just needs to be expanded in terms of how to build the army.

I have seen the suggestion of 1-3 squads minimum per platoon, and it could work but I also don't think it is enough squads personally.

You could then reduce guard pts wise again, as lets face it, at the current level of game lethality, they are not worth 55pts for a squad, at all, as well as soup being less and less of a viable army build.

I think there are legs for it, it just may need a fair amount of tweaking.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 13:53:27


Post by: kurhanik


 Dolnikan wrote:
As an infantry guard player, I really, really want platoons back. Right now, there are lots of tax units that have to be taken to even bring a dozen squads and because of the current detachment structure, that means taking a ton of units and HQs that I don't want. Of course, there should also be an option to be less infantry intensive, but that could come in the shape of veteran or armoured fist squads.

Oh, and something should be done to make command squads more than just one-use special weapons teams. Perhaps it could be a squad combined with the lieutenant that together has the character rule. Or truly make a mess and make all individual members characters and make Assassinate even better against Guard.


I think I mentioned on this or another thread, the Command Squads thing would be a good idea - either the squad gets the Character rule, or Officers and Command Squads are brought back as one unit again. The one thing is they would need to limit weapon options - like 1 special weapon and/or 1 heavy - that way you can't just have 4 meltas or 4 plasmas with character protection. But on the flip side, this done, suddenly the upgrades like banner, a vox box, and medic kit look a little bit better at least - bolster those rules into something more interesting / effective and you have the makings of an actual support squad for the infantry instead of a suicide special weapons team.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/19 14:03:38


Post by: endlesswaltz123


 kurhanik wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:
As an infantry guard player, I really, really want platoons back. Right now, there are lots of tax units that have to be taken to even bring a dozen squads and because of the current detachment structure, that means taking a ton of units and HQs that I don't want. Of course, there should also be an option to be less infantry intensive, but that could come in the shape of veteran or armoured fist squads.

Oh, and something should be done to make command squads more than just one-use special weapons teams. Perhaps it could be a squad combined with the lieutenant that together has the character rule. Or truly make a mess and make all individual members characters and make Assassinate even better against Guard.


I think I mentioned on this or another thread, the Command Squads thing would be a good idea - either the squad gets the Character rule, or Officers and Command Squads are brought back as one unit again. The one thing is they would need to limit weapon options - like 1 special weapon and/or 1 heavy - that way you can't just have 4 meltas or 4 plasmas with character protection. But on the flip side, this done, suddenly the upgrades like banner, a vox box, and medic kit look a little bit better at least - bolster those rules into something more interesting / effective and you have the makings of an actual support squad for the infantry instead of a suicide special weapons team.


You could have the old really old 3rd edition inquisition retinue rules, where you buy in specialists and they up the wound count of the unit and give it a special rule.

So rather than having a unit of 4 1W models plus your lieutenant with 3W. You start with the lieutenant and buy extra wounds, attacks etc with special rules attached. Command squads then don't need to be 5 total, they can be up to 5 and class as one unit with 7W's if you take the full extra 4W's. I loved them rules, they were so cool.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/02/26 17:32:25


Post by: The_Real_Chris


I would like each of the regiments get more attention, the vehicle kits become more flexible (e.g. being able to build Armeggedon versions of Chimera platforms, different Chimera platforms etc.) and the infantry be designed in a way that booster sprues deliver different looking regiments..

An example is this early draft for the Armageddon steel legion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/784756.page#10696525

It got refined and simplied a lot before use, but really made them play a lot differently to Cadian gun lines.

And yes includes a light tank which is based on the Chimera conversion with the turret built at the back.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 11:01:55


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Finally got around to reading Dead Men Walking over the last week (I haven't read many guard specific novels at all) and I think I get it now in terms of how some of you want the guard to operate on the tabletop, namely being competent. The difference between the DKoK standard troops and the PDF is a mile long in terms of efficacy and ability, then even more so with the grenadiers, but it also is not unreasonable.

Problem is and always will the granularity provided by the D6 system. Guard should be better at shooting than Orks, and better than 1BS level, but then they would be on par with marines and sisters, which they are not, and PDF/conscripts should be better than Orks, but not as good as standard guard.

As long as the standard guard are based on mass infantry, not small special forces MSU squads, then I'm cool with them getting a boost. Orders and stratagems can bridge the needed gap, such the ability to boost a lasguns power output but not be able to shoot the following turn, things like that.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 13:36:58


Post by: kurhanik


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Finally got around to reading Dead Men Walking over the last week (I haven't read many guard specific novels at all) and I think I get it now in terms of how some of you want the guard to operate on the tabletop, namely being competent. The difference between the DKoK standard troops and the PDF is a mile long in terms of efficacy and ability, then even more so with the grenadiers, but it also is not unreasonable.

Problem is and always will the granularity provided by the D6 system. Guard should be better at shooting than Orks, and better than 1BS level, but then they would be on par with marines and sisters, which they are not, and PDF/conscripts should be better than Orks, but not as good as standard guard.

As long as the standard guard are based on mass infantry, not small special forces MSU squads, then I'm cool with them getting a boost. Orders and stratagems can bridge the needed gap, such the ability to boost a lasguns power output but not be able to shoot the following turn, things like that.


Yeah, d6 is pretty limited in what it can do in base stats. If things say swapped to d12, you could have Marines hitting on a 4+, Guard on a 7 or 8+, and Orks on a 10+, and have saves range up to 12+ pretty easily. It also makes jumps up or down a point less huge, so it is harder to complain about Stormtroopers or Sisters having better BS than the average Guardsman since it won't immediately put them on par with a Space Marine. The problem is of course GW would look at this, and then decide that all "good" units need to be able to hit on a 2+ on a d12 and have 2+ rerollable saves and so on and so forth...


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 14:57:44


Post by: Dukeofstuff


"Reinforcement tokens".
Every gaurd infantry unit comes with a reinforcement token. On the destruction of the gaurd infantry unit, it is removed from the board and placed in strategic reserves. This does not count as its destruction for purposes of any victory points accrual, as its still there. Any missing models (up to all) are returned at this time as the reinforcement token is spent.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't make gaurd infantry any more useful or powerful. You start with 10 of them, and 10 of them is what you have on the board, and when they die, they just reappear elsewhere -- once -- reloaded. So it shouldn't really increase the price of gaurd infantry much, maybe 10 or 15 percent. After all, you are paying to put an out of position infantryman back in the game on turn 4 or 5.

I think it would give the gaurd a real faceless horde feel, though. The sole caveat is, the points price of the gaurd units for special weapons, heavy weapons, and melee weapons and pistols would double, as those items are both onboard in the advance half of the troop -- and offboard in the other group.

This would keep "I spam scions that come back from the dead" from happening too much -- although they could still do it, a simple 4 man squad of scions with EIGHT plasma guns is suddenly going to cost
40x1(buy unit) + 40x.15(reinforcement token)+40x2(equipment) or enough that gaurd wouldn't be crazy overpowered because of this. However, you won't just get tabled.

Reinforcement tokens ... I don't care what they look like, it could be done like a haywire mine (perhaps a magnetized helmet on the base of one of the 10 guys) or it could be done like color coordinating. Some people might be very picky about who dies last, though, so a little magnetized helmet on someone's feet (that you can swap to another base) or similar token that matches your scheme would work.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 15:02:38


Post by: Voss


Pass.

Pass for more tokens, pass for the problems and very bizarre gameplay it creates. The guard player wants to get squads killed so they can retake backfield objectives, and the opponent doesn't actually want to finish off guard squads so they aren't getting weapons back.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 15:07:36


Post by: Kanluwen


When you start throwing PDF into the mix, you might as well make Guard Veterans/Scions into Marines with a worse save, normal Guardsmen into Fire Warriors, and PDF/Conscripts into Cultists.

Understand this though:
Planetary Defense Forces are just as widely varied and experienced as Guard forces. There's a reason why I've suggested that PDF should outright be ignored as a unit choice and instead be utilized as a way to bring in a new style of Regimental Advisor.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 15:43:25


Post by: endlesswaltz123


I think you could do some cool things with orders etc before twiddling the data sheet base stats though.

'Elite' regiments still rely on their officers, this could be reflected in orders, and they could have double layered orders, rather than apply orders to just a unit, it could also be applied to a target also, so bring it down for example would provide an additional buff of +1 to hit for that unit against a specific target for selected units in 'elite' regiments. Obviously there would be some form of tax on having an elite regiment etc, but that leads into what I think we all agree on, varied regiments and options.

There's ways round it to make them operate more effectively, utilising their 'unique' playstyle of issuing orders rather than just make them E-Grade marines and wipe your hands of it.

Ideally, it would be done without excessive re-rolls as well.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 18:00:31


Post by: Kanluwen


I'm not going to get into what needs to happen for Guard at this point in detail.

The TLDR is burn the whole system down and start it up fresh, and stop pretending that Guard are PDF.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 18:06:47


Post by: catbarf


endlesswaltz123 wrote:Problem is and always will the granularity provided by the D6 system. Guard should be better at shooting than Orks, and better than 1BS level, but then they would be on par with marines and sisters, which they are not, and PDF/conscripts should be better than Orks, but not as good as standard guard.


kurhanik wrote:Yeah, d6 is pretty limited in what it can do in base stats. If things say swapped to d12, you could have Marines hitting on a 4+, Guard on a 7 or 8+, and Orks on a 10+, and have saves range up to 12+ pretty easily. It also makes jumps up or down a point less huge, so it is harder to complain about Stormtroopers or Sisters having better BS than the average Guardsman since it won't immediately put them on par with a Space Marine. The problem is of course GW would look at this, and then decide that all "good" units need to be able to hit on a 2+ on a d12 and have 2+ rerollable saves and so on and so forth...


Having Conscripts shoot exactly 3.42% more accurately than Orks will never be the magic solution to differentiating between troop quality. For all practical purposes the current 17% increments are about the smallest increment that has real, noticeable effect, and the current spread of Vets hitting on 3s, Guardsmen on 4s, and Conscripts on 5s is fine for representing base quality. Veterans having the same BS as Marines and Conscripts having the same BS as Orks is only a problem if you expect the stats to perfectly represent the fluff; in practice it's the weapons and special rules that differentiate the armies, not their raw BS. Ballistic Skill really only comes into play as a differentiating factor for distinguishing units within the same army.

The problem with the current Guard implementation is that Veterans are basically just Guardsmen that hit 33% more and get more special weapons (but lose obsec and don't fill troops slots), and Conscripts aren't worth taking, so in practice all you really see on the table is basic Guardsmen. Make Veterans Troops and give them back the ability to buy specializations (in 4th they could take carapace armor, demo charges, or camo-cloaks), and make Conscripts cheaper, and you'd see some variety again.

There's also a secondary issue in that, because the baseline for the game is Marines, and Marines so dramatically outperform any flavor of Guardsman 1-on-1, there's only so much you can do with Guard when any Guardsman regardless of skill or equipment is a chaff horde model in the game's meta. But nothing you do to Guardsmen can address that.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 19:07:26


Post by: Kanluwen


There's a lot you can do to Guardsmen when you remember that they're effectively a 3E army still.

We have Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard and Neophyte Hybrids that are effectively "Guardsmen +1", with a few mechanical tweaks there.

Veterans are, IMO, a garbage concept that should get tossed out as a standalone unit.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 20:39:57


Post by: SergentSilver


 generalchaos34 wrote:
novembermike wrote:
I wouldn't mind losing the 19th century designs like Mordians, Vostroyans and Praetorians. A lot of them are just too similar to actual historical minis and were only there in the first place so GW could reuse existing products. That doesn't fit the current GW business model so it's probably unrealistic for it to stick around.

In return it would be nice to get 3-4 major designs as new sculpts. Cadian style near future military, Steel Legion greatcoats, Catachans and a Starstriders style retrofuturistic design all seem interesting.


I think to top it off some of those minis have some.....problematic cultural issues *eyes Praetorians* that is probably left unmade for the next generation of models. Theres a lot of great design elements out there for some retro future stuff they can steal from over half the other product lines for inspiration and the whole line just needs a fresh look to it


To be fair, the Pratorians are just an offshoot of the Mordians thanks to a single event. They were made as custom display models at a GW event and only considered for full production after an outpouring of interest at and following said event. If you look at all their models, they're literally just Modrians with a Pith helm instead of a dress cap, so while it is a small loss of variety, I'm perfectly fine with not seeing them return. At the same time, the DKoK are modeled after WW1 German Empire uniforms and at least in lore use poison gas (I don't know their rules but I think they can actually use it in-game too), so while they don't have quite the same connotations as Victorian England style uniforms they are still of questionable design.

The Steel Legion are based more on WW2 Nazi Germany uniforms, which makes them, at least in my opinion, the ones most controversial and thus least deserving of a return. That's not to say I don't love their models and rules and wouldn't be happy to see them as a modular plastic kit, because I certainly do and would.

The Tallarn are more or less just middle eastern fighters from sometime in the WW1 through WW2 period, potentially a bit later as well, so they have minor but I believe inconsequential connotations. I would celebrate their return as modular plastic kits.

Valhallans are just WW1-2 Russians. Even in lore and tactics they are fully devoted to that theme, though I don't recall anything specifically insulting about them, so they could also see a welcome return.

The Atillan Rough Rider are a sticky subject. The models are interesting and I don't believe hold any relevant negative connotations themselves as long as no one gets upset about ancient history of Genghis Khan conquering most of Asia, however as I recall there is some less than flattering lore behind them that could be quite offensive to decedents of the historical people they copy aesthetically. Thus, while I would certainly try to get some should they return, I don't see it happening.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 21:16:40


Post by: Kanluwen


Steel Legion were patterned off the early war German paratrooper kit with a hint of "cavalry trooper" in there for the boots. The smocks/coats and helmets are a dead giveaway in that regard and there's a reason they have not really ever raised any hackles and it's because simply most people wouldn't associate them without knowing that context.

Death Korps are, as has been noted time and time again, utilizing a weird amalgation of French and German elements in their designs.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/01 21:55:30


Post by: SergentSilver


While that may be true, just because people don't immediately recognize it as such does not make it simply stop being relevant to the point. I stand by my statement in that regard. Still, I want to stress that I personally like all the models as models. I'm simply recognizing the history and origins behind them as potential factors of whether or not they will or even should make a return. I would love to see the Steel Legion again, as they are or under a different costume. I don't personally believe any of the models should be discarded simply for drawing on a potentially controversial aesthetic. I mean, you don't see people bashing or throwing out Star Wars Empire uniforms for being purposefully based off Nazi uniforms. Why should we treat models about a fictional universe differently? Unfortunately, reality often fails to match up with ideals or even common sense. Obviously, I am only talking about the models themselves. Any potentially offensive content in their lore should be looked over with a critical eye, such as what I mentioned with the Attilans. It's one thing to make models with an obvious style taken from a real people, even naming them in an obvious reference to said people, and call them fierce and brave warriors. This could even be a welcome inclusion of an often overlooked people. It is entirely another thing to go on to describe the people those model represent as uncivilized savages with a blatant disregard for personal hygiene.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/02 00:32:21


Post by: kurhanik


catbarf wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:Problem is and always will the granularity provided by the D6 system. Guard should be better at shooting than Orks, and better than 1BS level, but then they would be on par with marines and sisters, which they are not, and PDF/conscripts should be better than Orks, but not as good as standard guard.


kurhanik wrote:Yeah, d6 is pretty limited in what it can do in base stats. If things say swapped to d12, you could have Marines hitting on a 4+, Guard on a 7 or 8+, and Orks on a 10+, and have saves range up to 12+ pretty easily. It also makes jumps up or down a point less huge, so it is harder to complain about Stormtroopers or Sisters having better BS than the average Guardsman since it won't immediately put them on par with a Space Marine. The problem is of course GW would look at this, and then decide that all "good" units need to be able to hit on a 2+ on a d12 and have 2+ rerollable saves and so on and so forth...


Having Conscripts shoot exactly 3.42% more accurately than Orks will never be the magic solution to differentiating between troop quality. For all practical purposes the current 17% increments are about the smallest increment that has real, noticeable effect, and the current spread of Vets hitting on 3s, Guardsmen on 4s, and Conscripts on 5s is fine for representing base quality. Veterans having the same BS as Marines and Conscripts having the same BS as Orks is only a problem if you expect the stats to perfectly represent the fluff; in practice it's the weapons and special rules that differentiate the armies, not their raw BS. Ballistic Skill really only comes into play as a differentiating factor for distinguishing units within the same army.

The problem with the current Guard implementation is that Veterans are basically just Guardsmen that hit 33% more and get more special weapons (but lose obsec and don't fill troops slots), and Conscripts aren't worth taking, so in practice all you really see on the table is basic Guardsmen. Make Veterans Troops and give them back the ability to buy specializations (in 4th they could take carapace armor, demo charges, or camo-cloaks), and make Conscripts cheaper, and you'd see some variety again.

There's also a secondary issue in that, because the baseline for the game is Marines, and Marines so dramatically outperform any flavor of Guardsman 1-on-1, there's only so much you can do with Guard when any Guardsman regardless of skill or equipment is a chaff horde model in the game's meta. But nothing you do to Guardsmen can address that.


Veterans have been in a weird place for awhile. I remember in 7th the best way to run them was in Chimera since the vehicles still had fire points that they could fire out of, and the doctrines, while nice, were mostly to make the unit a bit more survivable if they had to bail on the transport. I'm not familiar with their 5th edition rendition, but in 3/4 weren't they also a 0-1 choice in elites, or am I thinking of some other unit?

I think if fire points out of a Chimera / Taurox came back, Veterans would see an uptick since they could actually take advantage of their better BS without having to risk themselves as much. Unfortunately that basically still relegates them to Guardsman +1 - even if they got their specializations back.

I don't want to go into too much depth on d12 vs d6 since it isn't really the topic of the thread, but I just want to note that it gives a bigger field to play with in terms of all abilities to avoid some things looking samey. It allows for bigger variety of stat spread within and between codices. The difference between a Guard Conscript, Infantry, and Veteran could easily be more than 1 point of BS - say a 5+, 7+, and 9+ for just numbers out of a hat. Saving throws too could vary a bit more to differentiate between kit on certain units, or the quality of certain armors - say Guard Carapace vs Tau Carapace, or Marine Power Armor vs Crisis Suits, etc.

SergentSilver wrote:While that may be true, just because people don't immediately recognize it as such does not make it simply stop being relevant to the point. I stand by my statement in that regard. Still, I want to stress that I personally like all the models as models. I'm simply recognizing the history and origins behind them as potential factors of whether or not they will or even should make a return. I would love to see the Steel Legion again, as they are or under a different costume. I don't personally believe any of the models should be discarded simply for drawing on a potentially controversial aesthetic. I mean, you don't see people bashing or throwing out Star Wars Empire uniforms for being purposefully based off Nazi uniforms. Why should we treat models about a fictional universe differently? Unfortunately, reality often fails to match up with ideals or even common sense. Obviously, I am only talking about the models themselves. Any potentially offensive content in their lore should be looked over with a critical eye, such as what I mentioned with the Attilans. It's one thing to make models with an obvious style taken from a real people, even naming them in an obvious reference to said people, and call them fierce and brave warriors. This could even be a welcome inclusion of an often overlooked people. It is entirely another thing to go on to describe the people those model represent as uncivilized savages with a blatant disregard for personal hygiene.


Honestly with Steel Legion the main change to remove some bad connotations from them would be to just get rid of the arm band - without that to the casual observer they are just gas mask guys in an overcoat.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/02 05:14:29


Post by: waefre_1


 kurhanik wrote:

...Honestly with Steel Legion the main change to remove some bad connotations from them would be to just get rid of the arm band - without that to the casual observer they are just gas mask guys in an overcoat.

I could see removal/reduction of the flaring at the bottom of the helmet being useful here as well. It's not particularly stahlhelm-y as it is, but changing the shape some might help give neo-Steel Legion a style of their own.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/02 09:09:49


Post by: endlesswaltz123


I am very humanistic and a forward thinking person, but I really don't see the point of starting to or trying to censor certain aesthetics due to historical connotations, if you look hard enough you can find a bad connotation in almost every unit GW puts out, be it aesthetic or fluff.

Lets sack off the Space Wolves as they are effectively space vikings and the people of nordic should feel ashamed of their past...

I get why some people may want this to happen, but you are immediately placed on a slippery slope. In addition, I don't think there is a single national military on the planet that hasn't committed what we would now consider a severe and grotesque war crime at some point within their history.

History has happened, we shouldn't forget it, and that includes influences from history in as niche a domain as the miniature wargaming hobby. Lastly, and most importantly, the Imperium are NOT the good guys in the setting, we aren't praising and celebrating the history of certain military units, they are just as evil in this setting as they were in real life.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/02 19:28:42


Post by: rattles101


New units would like to see.
Fast attack:
Bikers similar to Genestealer cult bikers,

Bring rough riders back and give them the krieg statline and the <regiment> and infantry keywords.

Bring back Elsyian sentinels but as fast attack allowing us to have Multi Melta & Heavy Bolter varients again.

Heavy Support:
while we have heavy weapon teams I would like to see something similar to space marine hellblasters where it can be a 10 man unit can field either plasma or melta guns (hitting on bs 3+).

Planted down immobile AA turrets that are similar primaris servo turrets (these weapons make more sense for guard to have then spacemarines anyway) where it can fire a twin lascannon, twin autocannon, twin multilaser and has a scout sentinel stat line without the ability to move.

Elite:
I would like to see a melee guard unit similar to the Solar Auxilia Veletaris which would basically have a ws 3+ T3 W2 A2 +4Sv a unit like this would complement units like the valkryie which rarely gets any play because theres very little worth dropping out of it. The unit would be between 5 - 10 models and every model can have either a powersword, power axe, or power maul and have the <Regiment> keyword.

A veteran unit that's equiped with hot-shot lasguns. (basically scions with a +5 save and can't deepstrike and dont have obj secured, they can be around 10 points.)



On the note of new things what I would much prefer is more varients and changes to existing units.
Such as changing veterans back to troops or giving them obj secured.

Vox Casters have unlimited range (their 12" range makes absolutely no sense)


Sentinels should only receive one damage when the plasma cannon blows up rather than model destroyed also make the chainsaw deal damage 2 alongside the -1ap (it still wont be used but it would be a nice change)

Master of Ordinance should make add +1 to hit rolls for all artillary units vehicles within 8" of the vox caster as long as the master of ordinance or a vox caster has line of site with the unit.

Master of the Fleet should add 1+ to hit for all flyers to units that are within line of site of the Master of the fleet or any unit with a vox caster.

Basilisks: Remove the ability to re-roll the number of shots dice but make the weapon 2d6 d3 (damage 3 against infantry)

Manitcore: make the weapon damage 3 against infantry otherwise the same d3

Leman russ battle tank: Battlecannon becomes damage 3 against infantry, Demolishers remain d6 but damage rolls of 1 and 2 become damage 3, vanquishers deal 2d6 damage with a minimum damage of 6, Leman russ annihilators can have tank commanders.

Infrantry squads should only give 0.5 victory points rather than 1 victory point for secondaries.

Scions go up to 15 points each but can get their own own regiment perks while in an astra militarum regiment and their hot-shots become damage 2.

Ogryns: Change Ripper gun to range 18"Assault 3 Strength 5(strength 6 if within 9" of the enemy unit) ap -1 (Ap-2 if within 9" of enemy unit) damage 2 & in combat the user gains +1 strength -1ap (I remember in previous editions the ripper gun used to give +1 strength in combat not sure why they removed it).

Plasma guns when overcharged: Strength 8 ap-3 damage 2 (damage 3 against infantry)

Superheavies:
If you are running a brigade you should be able to add 0-1 baneblade varient to your list with the<regiment> keyword.
Bring back the option to give baneblades bs +3 similiar to what they had in apocolaypse (make the upgrade an extra 50pts etc or make it so it can only have one set of sponsons to balance it).



Vehicle upgrades need a huge revamp:

Augur Array: All enemy models within 24" of this model do not gain from negative hit modifiers (also something like units with vox casters firing at those units also ignore the negative hit modifiers as long as the augur array is within range of the enemy units.

Dozer Blade: Add +2 to the weapon skill of any vehicle that has this (basically changes ws 6+ to was 4+).

Track Guards: Should prevent movement and shooting decay.

Heirlooms:
Give all powersword based heirlooms an additional +1 strength to compensate for Powersword changes.

Add Hammer of Sunderance as a heirloom and change it so it works on all leman russ varients and change the ruiling too: All leman Russ dealing d3 or d6 damage hit on the highest possible damage, and all leman russ dealing a flat amount of damage is doubled.

The selected Baneblade varient now has a 5+ FNP (this is to makeup for the lack of invulnerable save).


/*Notes*/

The new units help both modernise guard to have similar units to newly released units keeping them at the same pace.

It adds more melee choices while maybe not overpowered they can get nice buffs when in detachments like catachan and have straken to buff them.

Having more fast attack options is nice and I feel bikes would be a nice way to get IG around to board relatively quickly so they can quickly go from objective to objective.

I feel these are the kind of changes we need to keep Imperial Guard relevent when competing against armies like Space Marines or Deathguard as d3 and damage 1 weapons really just arnt good anymore.

The increase in damage for blast weapons is important as most tanks arn't killing more than 1 - 2 models due to all the upgraded 3 wound models and I feel that weapons designed to kill such units should kill such units. It also makes death star units like deathwatch terminators with obj secured are bit less of a threat as they can be dealt with now if enough heavy fire is focused on them.

When talking about the extra plasma gun damage when overcharged I think every plasma gun variant for every army should get this not just guard.

Of course with all these changes it would make sense for a lot of the units go up a fair bit in points which is fair but would rather pay more for units that do something then have units on average killing 1.5 marines a turn its nearly impossible for our units to make their points back anymore.




Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/02 21:40:42


Post by: Strg Alt


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Valkyries are the Imperial Guard helis.
Complete with hovering and door gunners!


Problem is that Valkyries belong in the realm of bad models like almost all GW flyers. And I WANT a helicopter! Just like Arnold in Predator.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/02 22:36:53


Post by: kurhanik


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I am very humanistic and a forward thinking person, but I really don't see the point of starting to or trying to censor certain aesthetics due to historical connotations, if you look hard enough you can find a bad connotation in almost every unit GW puts out, be it aesthetic or fluff.

Lets sack off the Space Wolves as they are effectively space vikings and the people of nordic should feel ashamed of their past...

I get why some people may want this to happen, but you are immediately placed on a slippery slope. In addition, I don't think there is a single national military on the planet that hasn't committed what we would now consider a severe and grotesque war crime at some point within their history.

History has happened, we shouldn't forget it, and that includes influences from history in as niche a domain as the miniature wargaming hobby. Lastly, and most importantly, the Imperium are NOT the good guys in the setting, we aren't praising and celebrating the history of certain military units, they are just as evil in this setting as they were in real life.


It is a bit of a sliding scale though - with the Praetorians, for example, wasn't their big fluff bit the Anglo-Zulu War, just with the Zulu replaced by Orks? I'd say more than the uniform, the fluff as it currently exists combined with the colonial aesthetic could be seen as slightly problematic. If one or the other were tweaked to make it slightly less blatant (ie: not just taking a historical battle and replacing one of the sides with literal monstrous barbarians while keeping the other side mostly recognizable), some of the negative connotations could be stepped back a touch.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/02 22:49:45


Post by: Snake Tortoise


Give guard infantry stronger orders that don't require HQ's (the unit leader is enough). Shoot twice (maybe not heavy weapons), go to ground (+2 cover save but can't do anything else), re-roll charge and double (triple??) CC attacks. Desperate humans fighting for their lives against terrifying alien/chaos opponents

That sort of thing. Without changing any of the stats a basic guardsman is worth more

As for units, I would like to see some form of rough riders again. More importantly, plastic Tallarn/Valhallan/Steel Legion etc. Plenty of kits could work as two regiments if you put two sets of heads in the box.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/03 09:31:59


Post by: kirotheavenger


I actually love the Valkyrie model. Sure the wings are solid bricks, but I put that down to model representation rather than actual realism.
If you want a helicopter convert one and counts-as a Valkyrie, all I'm saying here is I don't think a statline for a helicopter is worth the space in the codex as it's just a less sci-fi Valkyrie.

I love the idea for more accurate spotter mechanics for Guard.
I've always liked the idea of them being a backdoor for bringing WW2 historical mechanics into 40k.
Artillery spotting, officers, off-board artillery, etc.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/03 15:30:17


Post by: kurhanik


You know, not a unit, but I would like to see some fancy "Abilities" for Guard Commanders. Your average Company Commander isn't some melee beast, or ranged attack master, they are a force multiplier and boost their allies, so some neat little purchasable abilities that then boost a given unit could be neat. So for example you have your Company Commander as Warlord, and then purchase one or more boons onto the commander that then grants the buffs to other units.

Examples that come to mind:

Toy Soldiers - The Regiment has some better than average wargear on hand, that is handed out to the most skilled and loyal soldiers. Pick a Command Squad or Veteran Squad from your army and choose 2 of the following abilities to apply to the unit. Limitation: If taken, this ability MUST be purchased for each Company Command Squad and Veteran Squad in the army.
-The lasguns in this unit are now Strength 4
-The lasguns in this unit have AP -1
-The lasguns in this unit are Assault 3
-The unit is equipped with Carapace Armor and has a 4+ save
-Extra Rations - The unit has +1 Leadership
-etc, these are just things that immediately come to mind

Praetorian Guard - The Commander has a personal bodyguard that answers to them and whose loyalty is unquestioned. However, history is littered with loyal bodyguards who betrayed their leaders... Pick a Company Command Squad in your army, that unit gains the [character] tag, may pick one ability from the "Toy Soldiers" list, and gets the Bodyguard [4+] rule. Furthermore, if the Warlord loses its last wound while in range of the Praetorian Guard, each model may make 1 attack on that character - if these attack causes an unsaved wound, the Warlord is removed from play as normal, but gives no victory points to the opposing player. Limitation: If you take this ability, you may only take a single Company Command Squad in your army.

Friend to Abhumans - The Regimental Commander has deep bonds with the Abhumans under their command, and the Abhumans are loyal to their leader and go above and beyond for them. All abhumans in the army gain +1 to their Leadership stat, furthermore, Ogryn Bodyguards ability increases to Bodyguard [2+].

Martian Ties - The Regiment has ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus and can call on the organization for aid. You may take ONE Skitarii Ranger OR Skitarii Vanguard unit as an ELITES choice in your army without breaking Regimental Doctrines. The unit may pick a Forge World and benefit from its doctrine as normal.

Astartes Detachment - A unit of Adeptus Astartes has been detached to the Regiment for its current mission. You may take ONE Tactical Squad OR Intercessor Squad as a HEAVY SUPPORT choice in your army without breaking Regimental Doctrines. The unit may choose a Chapter and benefit from its doctrine as normal.

So long story short, I'd love a big list of abilities I could purchase on the Company Commander and mix and match to boost various units in the army or grant slightly different playstyles. It also gives actual options to the unit since lets face it, even the most beatstick of Guard Commanders strike like a wet noodle compared to even some generalist units.





Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/03 15:58:39


Post by: generalchaos34


 kurhanik wrote:
You know, not a unit, but I would like to see some fancy "Abilities" for Guard Commanders. Your average Company Commander isn't some melee beast, or ranged attack master, they are a force multiplier and boost their allies, so some neat little purchasable abilities that then boost a given unit could be neat. So for example you have your Company Commander as Warlord, and then purchase one or more boons onto the commander that then grants the buffs to other units.

Examples that come to mind:

Toy Soldiers - The Regiment has some better than average wargear on hand, that is handed out to the most skilled and loyal soldiers. Pick a Command Squad or Veteran Squad from your army and choose 2 of the following abilities to apply to the unit. Limitation: If taken, this ability MUST be purchased for each Company Command Squad and Veteran Squad in the army.
-The lasguns in this unit are now Strength 4
-The lasguns in this unit have AP -1
-The lasguns in this unit are Assault 3
-The unit is equipped with Carapace Armor and has a 4+ save
-Extra Rations - The unit has +1 Leadership
-etc, these are just things that immediately come to mind

Praetorian Guard - The Commander has a personal bodyguard that answers to them and whose loyalty is unquestioned. However, history is littered with loyal bodyguards who betrayed their leaders... Pick a Company Command Squad in your army, that unit gains the [character] tag, may pick one ability from the "Toy Soldiers" list, and gets the Bodyguard [4+] rule. Furthermore, if the Warlord loses its last wound while in range of the Praetorian Guard, each model may make 1 attack on that character - if these attack causes an unsaved wound, the Warlord is removed from play as normal, but gives no victory points to the opposing player. Limitation: If you take this ability, you may only take a single Company Command Squad in your army.

Friend to Abhumans - The Regimental Commander has deep bonds with the Abhumans under their command, and the Abhumans are loyal to their leader and go above and beyond for them. All abhumans in the army gain +1 to their Leadership stat, furthermore, Ogryn Bodyguards ability increases to Bodyguard [2+].

Martian Ties - The Regiment has ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus and can call on the organization for aid. You may take ONE Skitarii Ranger OR Skitarii Vanguard unit as an ELITES choice in your army without breaking Regimental Doctrines. The unit may pick a Forge World and benefit from its doctrine as normal.

Astartes Detachment - A unit of Adeptus Astartes has been detached to the Regiment for its current mission. You may take ONE Tactical Squad OR Intercessor Squad as a HEAVY SUPPORT choice in your army without breaking Regimental Doctrines. The unit may choose a Chapter and benefit from its doctrine as normal.

So long story short, I'd love a big list of abilities I could purchase on the Company Commander and mix and match to boost various units in the army or grant slightly different playstyles. It also gives actual options to the unit since lets face it, even the most beatstick of Guard Commanders strike like a wet noodle compared to even some generalist units.





This is pretty much what orders are SUPPOSED to be. Back in the day orders had a little more meaning because there were really good ones that only commanders could use. Really they need to strengthen orders and make the commanders have "super orders" that only they can do.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/03 16:53:08


Post by: Kanluwen


"Back in the day"?

Orders started with the Cruddace-headed book. There were two sets of Orders:
Platoon Commanders(which were taken as part of a Platoon) had "First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!", "Incoming!", and "Move! Move! Move!".
Company Commanders were HQ choices and had "Bring it Down!", "Fire on my Target!", and "Get Back in the Fight!" plus the three Platoon Commander Orders.

Platoon Commanders could issue one Order per turn, but if they got an "Inspired Tactics" roll(snake eyes) they could issue a free Order. If they got a "Can You Repeat that, Sir?"(double 6s), not only did their issued Order not take effect...no further Orders could be issued that turn, period.

And while we're visiting what the army was like "Back in the Day"...
CC Orders had to be done first, and were a 12" range(except for Creed--his was 24" and he could do 4 Orders a turn rather than 2!) with PC Orders happening after all CCS level Orders were resolved(1 Order/Platoon Command Squad with a 6" range). Vox-Casters did not increase the range on Orders--they just let you reroll a failed result if both the Command Squad and the targeted squad they were in had a Vox-Caster.

Then we get into the special characters like Al'Rahem, a Platoon Commander 'upgrade' with 2 Orders/turn that gave you a special Order("Swift Like the Wind") while letting you use "Bring It Down!"(CC Order on a PC!) and "FRF!SRF!" as his only other option. Or Chenkov, who gave you "Get Back In the Fight!"(again, CC Order on a PC!) and "Move! Move! Move!" as his two a turn Order options plus "Send In The Next Wave" as a purchaseable upgrade to your Conscript Squads in any Platoon in your army.

Or hey, how about Sergeant Bastonne! A Cadian Veteran Squad upgrade character who, after Orders were resolved, could attempt to issue a single Order to his squad?

TLDR:
The "really good Orders" were never on Company Commanders. They were always on the Platoon Commanders. The only difference is that Company Commanders got to double dip while non-named Platoon Commanders did not.

The Order system has been super flawed since its inception. It needs to be trashed, like any similar concepts for Guard from the post-Cruddace helmed books.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/03 21:58:29


Post by: Kcalehc


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I actually love the Valkyrie model. Sure the wings are solid bricks, but I put that down to model representation rather than actual realism.
If you want a helicopter convert one and counts-as a Valkyrie, all I'm saying here is I don't think a statline for a helicopter is worth the space in the codex as it's just a less sci-fi Valkyrie.

I love the idea for more accurate spotter mechanics for Guard.
I've always liked the idea of them being a backdoor for bringing WW2 historical mechanics into 40k.
Artillery spotting, officers, off-board artillery, etc.


I like the idea of buying an 'Artillery Barrage' for any Officer as a wargear item, and requiring them to be within 3" of unit with a Vox-Caster and LOS to the target, one barrage per shooting phase (same as the one on MoO, except no shooting things they can't see). Or just have the MoO unlock this ability for any Officer in their <Regiment> somehow.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/03 22:56:15


Post by: Tygre


In my mind vox-backpacks should be used for calling off board artillery. For a company sized battlefield you should not need long ranged comm-units to communicate within your own company (or even platoon).

- The basic squad could call an indirect Heavy Mortar shot.
- A command squad could call an indirect Earthshaker shot or a Mortar barrage etc.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/04 22:05:44


Post by: generalchaos34


Tygre wrote:
In my mind vox-backpacks should be used for calling off board artillery. For a company sized battlefield you should not need long ranged comm-units to communicate within your own company (or even platoon).

- The basic squad could call an indirect Heavy Mortar shot.
- A command squad could call an indirect Earthshaker shot or a Mortar barrage etc.


I like that Idea. We've already seen it on the Impulsor. Just make it a little pricey and a once a turn only thing, you buy a lot in order to ensure LOS and safety of the network. Also if it gave the squad the VOX keyword you could have it and a master of ordnance interact and also give special strategems. I also wouldn't mind if voxes still increased the range of orders to unlimited since its a pricey item to begin with. This could also lead to a "Command Tank" style unit, or a forward command base fortification that can also call in artillery and work as a vox/bunker that lets commanders give orders from inside.

As for a new unit I would like to see a new Supreme Commander type unit. Lots of armies have their primarchs, silents kings, etc. I want the guard to have one, preferably someone new and very badass (and a girl! thats just wishlisting) that gets to be on some sort of very ornate command vehicle or Katakros style diorama of a guard HQ. Someone who can be a real force multiplier and isn't tied to a regiment. A Lord commander/ crazy title/ whatever that can really add a level of wow and coolness to the army. Even if its not great like the Triumph of St Katherine I think she could still be a whole lot of fun to paint and build.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/04 22:11:18


Post by: Kanluwen


No thanks. If you want something "not tied to a regiment", then ally an Inquisitor in or use Severina Raine or something like that.

Because frankly? They've focused too much on non-Regimental stuff.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/04 22:38:07


Post by: kurhanik


Yeah, I would rather see a generic option for a step or two up from Company Commander instead of a fancy named character who is head of the Guard. Its what I like about the current Command Squad box actually, it has a few nice heads, commander torsos, etc to make several leader types. I'd rather see more of that with say Platoon Commander - Company Commander - Regimental Colonel/Commander. At least on my end, its easy enough to fluff in "Lord Commander Blank is head of the Imperial Guard forces deployed to this planet, for gameplay purposes he is a [highest tier of commander GW has] with X, Y, and Z abilities."

Its why I said I'd rather see a big variety of abilities on Commanders that you can purchase to customize their forces in general. A Commander with a personal bodyguard unit and ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus - thus gaining a Command Squad with the Bodyguard ability and a single squad of Skitarii to support them, is more interesting than "has this specific named relic and a las pistol."


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/05 00:22:51


Post by: Kanluwen


Real-talk, we just need the "Company" and "Platoon" titles gone. The "Senior Officer" and "Junior Officer" titles worked far better. There was a White Dwarf immediately following the 13th Black Crusade campaign that had rules for a "High Command" officer and accompanying cadre. It would have been a perfect option for an HQ if they hadn't let Cruddace near the damn Guard book. You had a high-end officer with a command squad that replaced its Veterans with Stormtroopers instead. You could add in an artillery officer, a bodyguard/batman, a priest, a techpriest, and a psyker. I might be off on the Techpriest but I'm 90% sure on the rest. Don't have the WD handy at the moment.

That kind of thing would be perfect for a Supreme Command choice now. Senior Officers remain as HQs, Juniors as Elites, and High Command with its staffers are all in a Lord of War choice.

I'm 100% opposed to anything else taking Skitarii right now. Skitarii are in a middling place, thanks to them having all of their special rules stripped out and them being jammed into the Cult Mechanicus book.

You want to represent "ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus"? It's in the wargear they have. You don't need to take units to represent that bond.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/05 01:28:57


Post by: kurhanik


 Kanluwen wrote:
Real-talk, we just need the "Company" and "Platoon" titles gone. The "Senior Officer" and "Junior Officer" titles worked far better. There was a White Dwarf immediately following the 13th Black Crusade campaign that had rules for a "High Command" officer and accompanying cadre. It would have been a perfect option for an HQ if they hadn't let Cruddace near the damn Guard book. You had a high-end officer with a command squad that replaced its Veterans with Stormtroopers instead. You could add in an artillery officer, a bodyguard/batman, a priest, a techpriest, and a psyker. I might be off on the Techpriest but I'm 90% sure on the rest. Don't have the WD handy at the moment.

That kind of thing would be perfect for a Supreme Command choice now. Senior Officers remain as HQs, Juniors as Elites, and High Command with its staffers are all in a Lord of War choice.

I'm 100% opposed to anything else taking Skitarii right now. Skitarii are in a middling place, thanks to them having all of their special rules stripped out and them being jammed into the Cult Mechanicus book.

You want to represent "ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus"? It's in the wargear they have. You don't need to take units to represent that bond.


Very true with Jr/Sr/High Command, though now you have me afraid that the way High Command will be implemented will end up as another big diorama...

And the Skitarii thing was just an example of the things you could do to differentiate commanders, not a firm set "this must be so", though the wargear note also falls a bit flat in terms of no model no rule... It would be neat though, buy this ability on your Commander and now you can give one or two squads of guardsmen Galvanic Rifles instead of Lasguns.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/05 01:35:33


Post by: Kanluwen


That would be kinda too hefty of rules work to do. That's entirely different units for all intents and purposes, not just "hey there's a different rule!"


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/07 14:31:41


Post by: BlackoCatto


Im rather fine getting non same regimental assets in, worked well before more than what you make of it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/07 16:13:27


Post by: bat702


I would like to see buffs to heavy weapon squads, like being able to take them in sets of 3 like the rest of guard heavy support, then there should be an ability for infantry squads to screen for them, like on a 3+ they can intercept a shot against a heavy weapon squad, I would really love to see a guard gunline of just tons of heavy bolters or etc


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/07 22:49:55


Post by: pelicaniforce


kurhanik wrote:
Very true with Jr/Sr/High Command, though now you have me afraid that the way High Command will be implemented will end up as another big diorama...

And the Skitarii thing was just an example of the things you could do to differentiate commanders, not a firm set "this must be so", though the wargear note also falls a bit flat in terms of no model no rule... It would be neat though, buy this ability on your Commander and now you can give one or two squads of guardsmen Galvanic Rifles instead of Lasguns.


Yeah an exotic weapons unit would be nice. There isn’t any real tie in to “buying” an invisible option for an HQ model to get that unit though.

I’d like a unit with las locks, heavy1 24” S5, like terrible terrible fire warriors. Or, a guard unit with galvanic rifles who have to take penalties from the exotic weapons, ones that skitarii don’t have to worry about

Kanluwen wrote:That would be kinda too hefty of rules work to do. That's entirely different units for all intents and purposes, not just "hey there's a different rule!"

The thread is “new astra militarum units.” It should be hefty rules because they’re supposed to be whole models and entries we’ve never seen before.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/07 23:12:42


Post by: Kanluwen


If you want to nitpick, his suggestion was not "new astra militarum units". It was, effectively, just shoehorning Skitarii Lite into the codex.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/08 01:03:32


Post by: Ielthan


Would love to see Forgeworld make a Leviathan.

Yarrick's Fortress of Arrogance as a conversion kit for the baneblade too.

Honestly just want Forgeworld to bring back all their old stuff and scenery.

I never understand why GW doesn't do what Lego has done with the made to order stuff running almost like a kickstarter, rather than them choosing what to release sporadically. Then could make the whole back catalogue available (which would sell like crazy and have incredibly low marginal cost to them).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/08 01:40:19


Post by: waefre_1


Ielthan wrote:
Would love to see Forgeworld make a Leviathan.

Yarrick's Fortress of Arrogance as a conversion kit for the baneblade too.

Honestly just want Forgeworld to bring back all their old stuff and scenery.

I never understand why GW doesn't do what Lego has done with the made to order stuff running almost like a kickstarter, rather than them choosing what to release sporadically. Then could make the whole back catalogue available (which would sell like crazy and have incredibly low marginal cost to them).

First, I'm not sure we'd be able to have a Leviathan in 40k scale. IIRC they're small enough that they'd be able to fit on a 6x4 board, but they'd take up enough of it that including it as anything other than fortress terrain piece that happens to be mobile would seem off.

Second, hard agree on Forgeworld bringing their stuff back. I want that level of vehicular cornucopia for my dudes, and I'd be happy to see that spread to the xenos as well (though I would prefer if the FW stuff was brought back as part of and included in some sweeping balance overhaul where GW hires actual game designers and gives them actual time to do that game design thing they're getting paid for - I recall the xenos FW gear being even more inconsistent in power level than the Imperial stuff, and the Imperial stuff was iffy enough on its own).

Third, I'm not sure how they did mold management, but I have to imagine that a lot of the molds for the FW stuff that got squatted must have been pretty old by the time they got binned (and that presumes that they hadn't been damaged and left in storage awaiting repair/replacement). Even if GW cared enough to want to do a Made-To-Order gig, the molds simply may not be available for it (and I'd really not want GW to use Made-To-Order for stuff like this - their price points are exorbitant enough as it is, we don't need them forcing artificial scarcity into the equation).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/08 10:30:45


Post by: Ielthan


 waefre_1 wrote:
Ielthan wrote:
Would love to see Forgeworld make a Leviathan.

Yarrick's Fortress of Arrogance as a conversion kit for the baneblade too.

Honestly just want Forgeworld to bring back all their old stuff and scenery.

I never understand why GW doesn't do what Lego has done with the made to order stuff running almost like a kickstarter, rather than them choosing what to release sporadically. Then could make the whole back catalogue available (which would sell like crazy and have incredibly low marginal cost to them).


First, I'm not sure we'd be able to have a Leviathan in 40k scale. IIRC they're small enough that they'd be able to fit on a 6x4 board, but they'd take up enough of it that including it as anything other than fortress terrain piece that happens to be mobile would seem off.

Second, hard agree on Forgeworld bringing their stuff back. I want that level of vehicular cornucopia for my dudes, and I'd be happy to see that spread to the xenos as well (though I would prefer if the FW stuff was brought back as part of and included in some sweeping balance overhaul where GW hires actual game designers and gives them actual time to do that game design thing they're getting paid for - I recall the xenos FW gear being even more inconsistent in power level than the Imperial stuff, and the Imperial stuff was iffy enough on its own).

Third, I'm not sure how they did mold management, but I have to imagine that a lot of the molds for the FW stuff that got squatted must have been pretty old by the time they got binned (and that presumes that they hadn't been damaged and left in storage awaiting repair/replacement). Even if GW cared enough to want to do a Made-To-Order gig, the molds simply may not be available for it (and I'd really not want GW to use Made-To-Order for stuff like this - their price points are exorbitant enough as it is, we don't need them forcing artificial scarcity into the equation).


I see, didn't realise it was quite that huge. Well some kind of superheavy command tank that's on a very different chassis to a baneblade, more like a mobile fortress would still be cool.

I think just not having forgeworld write the rules would pretty much sort it, the rules held a lot of their kits back, e.g. Eldar Corsairs were cool af, but the rules were abysmal, Eldar Hornets however have sold really well as their rules have fairly consistently been good and at least useable. Krieg has sold as well as it has mostly because people just proxy them for normal guardsmen.

There is so much great stuff that's gone, especially regarding scenery. They've gone from making the most interesting and cool stuff in the hobby to just being all space marines all the time (30k) same as gw. There's a big gap in the market they've left open for interesting high level stuff for other factions and scenery. It's only a matter of time before another company/3d printing fills it in some way frankly. It happened with their fantasy terrain and tabletop world (yes back when they were supporting WFB).

In terms of moulds, well moulds can be remade where they need to be, they've done it before plenty of times. e.g. there's no chance the contemptor dreadnought mould is still the original one. I think in a lot of cases though it wasn't mould issues but sales ones, forgeworld made a lot of their best stuff a long time ago when the average hobbyist was a lot younger and wouldn't have the disposable income to buy forgeworld. That's changed (much like with lego), hence now you can even see the way in which products are marketed/branded they're targeting 30 year olds not 12 year olds.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/09 02:15:52


Post by: waefre_1


Ielthan wrote:
I see, didn't realise it was quite that huge. Well some kind of superheavy command tank that's on a very different chassis to a baneblade, more like a mobile fortress would still be cool.

I think just not having forgeworld write the rules would pretty much sort it, the rules held a lot of their kits back, e.g. Eldar Corsairs were cool af, but the rules were abysmal, Eldar Hornets however have sold really well as their rules have fairly consistently been good and at least useable. Krieg has sold as well as it has mostly because people just proxy them for normal guardsmen.

There is so much great stuff that's gone, especially regarding scenery. They've gone from making the most interesting and cool stuff in the hobby to just being all space marines all the time (30k) same as gw. There's a big gap in the market they've left open for interesting high level stuff for other factions and scenery. It's only a matter of time before another company/3d printing fills it in some way frankly. It happened with their fantasy terrain and tabletop world (yes back when they were supporting WFB).

In terms of moulds, well moulds can be remade where they need to be, they've done it before plenty of times. e.g. there's no chance the contemptor dreadnought mould is still the original one. I think in a lot of cases though it wasn't mould issues but sales ones, forgeworld made a lot of their best stuff a long time ago when the average hobbyist was a lot younger and wouldn't have the disposable income to buy forgeworld. That's changed (much like with lego), hence now you can even see the way in which products are marketed/branded they're targeting 30 year olds not 12 year olds.

To be fair, it's not actually as large as I thought it was.
Spoiler:

The ironic part about 30k is that it came first, and I recall a lot of posts during 7th saying that people almost wished that 40k could be made more like 30k as 30k was a much more stable/balanced ruleset at the time. Looks like we got what we were asking for.
That said, I'm not sure GW would do much better. When Bligh went to the Emperor's side, FW seems to have gone with him (though we may never know how much of that is Bligh being gone and how much is Bligh no longer being in a position where he may have been able to shield FW from GW...), but GW seems to have a dim view of what FW made and I doubt they'd treat the rules for FW minis with any more care than they treated the minis themselves.

As for the molds, well, yes, they can be remade. But if the sales weren't there to begin with, why would GW spend the dosh to replace them? That's valuable warehouse space that could be spent on molds for Primaris Lieutenant (Right-handed plasma pistol, firing, left handed chainsword, yelling #4, slight stiffness in left arm, not regretting having the salami at breakfast)


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/09 14:46:58


Post by: The_Real_Chris


In addition to everything above, I would love mechanics that reduced dice rolling...

So for example Ordering First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! rather than doubling shots, mean your shots auto hit.

Medic packs working automatically, etc. etc. The stuff is numerous and low quality enough to not be game breaking and would really speed things up...


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/09 15:03:11


Post by: Ielthan


The_Real_Chris wrote:
In addition to everything above, I would love mechanics that reduced dice rolling...

So for example Ordering First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! rather than doubling shots, mean your shots auto hit.

Medic packs working automatically, etc. etc. The stuff is numerous and low quality enough to not be game breaking and would really speed things up...


Think that's a very slippery slope. 9th age has sort of done this by changing lots of previously D6 or D3 values to set numbers, or other ways aimed at reducing variance, but tbh it just feels more bland. I think so many of my favourite wargaming memories have been when a game comes down to a key dice roll, or when that rare freak possibility happens (like when someone rolled insane courage in WFB and it would just totally change the momentum of the game).

I'm in the other camp, more dice rolling = more fun.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/09 17:18:10


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Yeah, I guess I am really not for inconsequential stuff. Earthshaker cannons? Sure. Plasma guns? Why not. Platoons of guard firing lasguns... not so much. I can already pump out 76 strength 3 shots at rapid fire range with 4 bare bones squads. Against say space marines it achieves not much but you have to do it to whittle them down. First rank fire.. means I can now roll 148 dice to hit. At that point my end result is going to be pretty close to average. Just say the order means I hit automatically 72 times and jump straight to wound and save rolls.

Likewise the medic ability, ignore it isn't optimal, I have to roll a dice to see if a 1 wound guardsman returns to the battle? Double the cost if you must, just have him heal that wound every turn and get on with the game.

This happens automatically in some cases - e.g. the arty or aircraft spotter doesn't have to roll 2+ to acquire the target to give re-rolls. Would the game be better (longer) with that?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/09 17:26:12


Post by: Ielthan


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yeah, I guess I am really not for inconsequential stuff. Earthshaker cannons? Sure. Plasma guns? Why not. Platoons of guard firing lasguns... not so much. I can already pump out 76 strength 3 shots at rapid fire range with 4 bare bones squads. Against say space marines it achieves not much but you have to do it to whittle them down. First rank fire.. means I can now roll 148 dice to hit. At that point my end result is going to be pretty close to average. Just say the order means I hit automatically 72 times and jump straight to wound and save rolls.

Likewise the medic ability, ignore it isn't optimal, I have to roll a dice to see if a 1 wound guardsman returns to the battle? Double the cost if you must, just have him heal that wound every turn and get on with the game.

This happens automatically in some cases - e.g. the arty or aircraft spotter doesn't have to roll 2+ to acquire the target to give re-rolls. Would the game be better (longer) with that?



Well crazy outliers do happen. I once in 8th ed WFB game did 4 wounds to a great unclean one with just 10 lowly high elf archers in a stand-and-shoot charge reaction, then with always strikes first killed him before he could strike in combat. And he had a 4++ that turn for some daemon reason. Full wounds to dead in one absolutely amazing turn, opponent through his dice out a 1st floor window.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/03/09 17:42:12


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Whilst it would be possible to get, say, 36 hits with 9 lasguns rather than a guarantied 18... It still makes not much difference when it comes to rolling kills verse marines et al. Still plenty of chances to roll 9 dead marines with your wound and save rolls rather than the average of 1 you get rolling normally starting with 72.

Also gives a cool option verses tricksy eldar and others with hit mod or only hit on 6 rules. Representing the wall of laser shots they can lay down in front of them when called upon (showing better training than PDF etc).

Note this is only for stuff that takes a lot of time and achieves little, or is quite inconsequential. It has got to the point that in big games to finish in an evening I don't bother firing stuff like lasguns, there just isn't time. And I lose very little. There is already fixed values in the game - should movement be a D10 rather than a flat 6"? Or the above example of rolling dice to get access to buffs like spotting.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/21 06:54:31


Post by: Jarms48


Damn, I feel like nearly everything for Guard has already been done and just needs to come back.

Regiment Options:
- All named regiments get at least 1 warlord trait, 1 relic, 1 stratagem, 1 order, and 1 character.
- Bring back Attila, Death Korps of Krieg, Elysia, Last Chancers, Praetorians, Tanith 1st and Only as named regiments.
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers Militarum Tempestus units can swap their Tempestus Regiment keyword for the Ordo keyword.

Special Weapons:
- Bolters, Heavy Stubbers and Anti-material Rifles as additional special weapon options. Anti-material Rifles would be similar autocannon strength sniper rifles.

Heavy Weapons:
- Heavy Flamers (see the old DKOK Grenadiers), Multi-lasers, and Twin Heavy Stubbers for infantry.
- Heavy Stubbers as hull and sponson options for tanks.

Supreme Commander:
- Super-heavy Tank Commander
- Lord Solar Macharius: He's dead sure, but we should be able to imagine we're playing during his crusade.

HQ:
- Auxiliary Commander: Basically a company commander for auxiliary units.
- Mounted Commander: A horse mounted company commander.
- Chimera Artillery Command Vehicle: Orders artillery units.
- Hellhound Commander: Orders units of hellhounds.
- Salamander Command Tank: Orders units of salamander scouts.
- Sentinel Commander: Orders units of sentinels.

Troops:
- Dragoons: Basically infantry squads on horses. No heavy weapon, but can take 2 special weapons.
- Grenadiers: Basically scions but no aerial drop and has the Regiment; keyword.
- Ogryns: To give them something over Bullgryns.
- Penal Legion Squad: Basically the melee alternative to veterans. Has WS3+ and BS4+, starts with lasguns but can swap these out for shotguns, or laspistols and chainswords.
- Platoons: Some way to bring multiple Infantry Squads per Troops choice.
- Ratling Infantry Squad: Ratlings with lasguns, can optionally upgrade them with demolition charges.
- Veterans: Bring them back.

Dedicated Transport:
- Centaurs: The only issue with them was the transport size. Increase them to 6 models, then they can actually carry things like special weapon and heavy weapon squads.
- Chimeras: More turret weapon options, bring back the Autocannon and Twin Heavy Bolters, add Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, and Multi-meltas. Add an option to make it a medical vehicle with a 6+++ aura and the ability to return/heal models.
- Chimerax
- Chimedon
- Chimerro

Elites:
- Forward Operators: Basically an infantry squad that can deploy 9 - 12 inches away from enemy models and enemy deployment.

Fast Attack:
- Armoured Cars: Something that looks like a Staghound/M8/Daimler/etc.
- Drop Sentinels: Bring these guys back as well. Similar to the above they should be made into Militarum Tempestus units. Giving that faction some much needed heavy firepower.
- Rough Riders: They just have to come back.
- Salamander Scout: As heavier tracked alternatives to sentinels.
- Sentinel Powerlifters: Remove their scout vehicle ability and give them the support vehicle ability from the trojan instead.
- Tauros: They also need to come back, except with Elysians as a codex gone they should be made Militarum Tempestus units. With a buff to BS3+ to represent their scion crews.

Heavy Support:
- Artillery Carriages: Too many to name, bring them all back. All of them.
- Battlecannon Carriage: Similar to the old artillery carriages there needs to be one with a direct-fire weapon.
- Hydras: With options to swap the autocannons for lascannons, or skyeagle rockets.
- Leman Russ (Twin Multi-melta): No idea on what it'd be called, but could you imagine 8 turret multi-melta shots coming out after grinding advance?
- Manticores: More rocket and missile options. Such as swapping the 4 Storm Eagle Rockets for either 8 Hellfury Missiles, 8 Hellstrike Missiles, 8 Hunter-killer Missiles, or 8 Skystrike Missiles.
- Militarum Tempestus Heavy Weapons Squad: With the above as well this would allow an MT detachment to actually take Brigades.
- Ordinance Batteries: Bring back the old school chimera based open-topped Griffon, Medusa, and Colossus.
- Thunderer: More thunderer variants such as battle cannon, and vanquisher cannon.

LoW:
- Macharius Heavy Tanks: We have the famous Octoblade so having a single Macharius plastic kit with 8 options would be awesome as well. The 4 new variants could have things like the Tremor Cannon, Magma Cannon, Stormsword Cannon, and Baneblade Cannon (with no Autocannon). Basically a cheaper method to get Baneblade scale weaponry and cutting out the chaff like them being transports or paying for hull Demolisher Cannons as well.

Fortifications:
- Turret Emplacement: Bring back the old Chimera and Leman Russ turret bunkers.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/21 16:20:06


Post by: Big Mac


they should bring back the Land Speeder option for IG, it would serve as a scout vehicle, command or support variant.

I made a conversion for my Elysians yrs ago:


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/21 16:30:49


Post by: Caradman Sturnn


Here's an idea: Primaris Guardsmen or 'guardsman Primaris' to avoid confusion.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/21 19:47:43


Post by: Ravajaxe


Funny, but it may come true. Take the Catachans, update the scupts, make them a separate entry, with their bonus strength, new kit, on new 9/8 inch bases (28.5mm), give them an upgraded STR 4 shotgun instead of the puny laser gun. And voilà ! Here are the primaris guardsmen !


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/21 19:54:59


Post by: waefre_1


Don't forget to make the Primarichans about the same size as Primaris Marines so that people can complain to GW about how Marines are the same size as Guardsmen, and Marines need to be upscaled so they look right on the tabletop...


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 00:56:43


Post by: usmcmidn


Absolutely zero chance of this happening... Someone would turn it into a PR s***storm from outside the hobby once they caught wind of it, most likely from someone unhappy within the hobby, and I think it would just be a bit un-tasteful personally.


So in the universe where innocent civilians get slaughtered, butchered, and executed.... rape, pillaging, theft, entire planets getting gassed, and a sci fi world filled with just murder and mayhem.... the thing that’s un-tasteful to you is suicide bombers? I understand why you think that but there are other things to pick at in the universe. War is supposed to be this hell you don’t understand. It’s supposed to be strife with anger, rage, passion, and a whole slew of negative emotions. War is brutal.... the universe gets it right sometimes by showing a semi-correct depiction on the ugliness of war I feel..... and It’s a game, there’s that too.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 03:42:47


Post by: bat702


Honestly, suicide bombing is considered very dis-honorable (even in war) in the American/Western Psyche, and thus Games-workshop would be right to avoid it as much as possible. Tho I was toying around with the idea of using ork buggies in previous editions to basically die and provide cover for the foot-slogging hordes, as buggies could provide alot of cover for a very low cost.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 04:36:06


Post by: catbarf


usmcmidn wrote:
War is supposed to be this hell you don’t understand. It’s supposed to be strife with anger, rage, passion, and a whole slew of negative emotions.


That just isn't 40K.

40K is cartoon violence. Its core theme is that war is fun. It has to be, if it wants to sell you war as an entertainment product. It doesn't meaningfully engage with the realities of war and it isn't meant to; you don't watch a GI Joe cartoon expecting to explore the finer points of PTSD or civilian collateral.

Suicide bombers are a little too real for a lot of people and cross that line from escapist fantasy violence to something uncomfortable to play out. GW isn't going to release minis depicting civilians being raped or being gassed in extermination camps either. Being ostensibly part of the setting- in the background, hinted at, not really explored- does not make it suitable material for the tabletop.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 05:53:01


Post by: BlackoCatto


I say BANZAI!!!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 08:22:54


Post by: usmcmidn


 catbarf wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
War is supposed to be this hell you don’t understand. It’s supposed to be strife with anger, rage, passion, and a whole slew of negative emotions.


That just isn't 40K.

40K is cartoon violence. Its core theme is that war is fun. It has to be, if it wants to sell you war as an entertainment product. It doesn't meaningfully engage with the realities of war and it isn't meant to; you don't watch a GI Joe cartoon expecting to explore the finer points of PTSD or civilian collateral.

Suicide bombers are a little too real for a lot of people and cross that line from escapist fantasy violence to something uncomfortable to play out. GW isn't going to release minis depicting civilians being raped or being gassed in extermination camps either. Being ostensibly part of the setting- in the background, hinted at, not really explored- does not make it suitable material for the tabletop.


Look I’m not trying to get into a philosophical debate. And please don’t assume I’m angry, hateful, or trying to be a jerk in my responses. I’m just trying to convey my point. If I come off as disrespectful or a jerk please know that is not what I feel.

I respectfully disagree. Again I understand what you are saying about cartoon violence. However I would disagree on the basis of the novels. Most of 40K novels are anything but cartoon funny violence. The universe is based on grim dark. I get the tabletop game may be that way but for example the end of 13 Hours (I believe) the guardsman is literally laying in a puddle of his own blood after a failed operation trying to hang on for that 13 hour mark before inevitably dying alone and in the mud. Hell I remember reading a novel where a naval bondsman “assaulted” a female bondsman.

And GW has released minis that have been less politically correct, for example the Asdrubael Vect model literally has two women slaves on it.... Hell, all of Dark Eldar society is based off of torture and slaves. I think that is far more disturbing then suicide bombers. I think we can all agree how horrible slavery is... at least to western standards as someone pointed out.

Again it’s based off of violence. And the cool thing about 40K is it can be whatever you want it to be. I choose to be a good guy who deploys my Astartes to protect civilians and kill bad guys trying to kill those civilians. 40K is a universe where literally anything and everything can happen. I don’t have a problem with the notion of suicide bombers (in fiction). Again I am in no way shape or form condoning suicide bombing, that’s horrible. We just choose to disregard some of the more horrible things the universe has to offer and that is ok.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 08:55:38


Post by: Galas


Suicide Bombers work better for Genestealer Cults (They have literally ACME dinamite) than for imperial guard.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 11:28:03


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Seeing as how most factions are getting 1-3 new sculpts per dex (ignoring anything that wears power armor for the moment) I don't see IG getting much of a boost in model count. They already boast the single largest model count if you throw in FW, of any faction in the game.

They will likely get some new sub faction bonuses "Cadians never run" removes morale phase for Cadian detachments or some sillyness. Maybe a new vehicle, but their Scions line is only a few years old, they don't really NEED much. Maybe a way to faction in detachments from other Imperial units with no cp Cost? Add in a detachement of Sisters, no CP cost for the extra detachment.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 18:06:42


Post by: Ravajaxe


I don't see Cadians getting out of print. Not even getting changed. Catachans, on the other hand, are horrible, very old models, at least for the basic squad box (beginning of 3rd edition). They will probably update them, while keeping the general look. The catachan command squad box, which dates back from 5th edition, may be kept as is. I mean these models do look much better, right ? Right ??

As for a new plastic infantry range, my feeling is this: they will stop making the very last metal infantry squad box, the Armageddon Steel Legion. With an update to the sculpts, this may become the greatcoat infantry range in plastic, that many of us call for, since ages. Steel Legion has a well established, detailed and important place in the W40k Imperial Guard lore. So I'm confident they will be an important part of the 9th edition AM codex. This will need three boxes : basic squad, command squad, heavy weapon squad.

Unfortunately, this does not leaves many room for further new kits. I definitely think all tanks will remain the same. With maybe an exception for the basilisk, which is an outdated kit from 2nd edition, half updated when 5th ed' codex dropped. It still contains some small obsolete sprues that should be changed. They may take the opportunity to make a double kit out of it, and reintroduce the Griffon tank. It would be very nice.

I hope that GW will not stop there, and I would applause the return of old Forgeworld's Tauros Venator / Tauros assault vehicle as a plastic kit. In terms of gameplay, AM is in dire need of a really rapid unit, a proper fast attack selection.

Do this seems plausible to you ?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 18:22:58


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Sentinels can already set up anywhere (On your side) at start and do a 14" scout move. With Heavy Flamers, or even LCs, that is a ugly first move to unleash on an unprepared unit, especially for the cost... Rough Riders also do a mean thing on the charge, but I forget their stats.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 18:54:17


Post by: Ravajaxe


Rough riders are currently on "Legends" status, so do not count.

Scout sentinels can do not 14, but 9 plus 9 inches move during the first turn. This can be combined to a 12 inches flame range and a desperate 6 inches charge range into an unprepared opponent. All of this is quite nice, but this unique, extra move cannot replace the tactical flexibility of a truely fast movement characteristic of 15 inches (Tauros).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 19:00:27


Post by: Insectum7


 catbarf wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
War is supposed to be this hell you don’t understand. It’s supposed to be strife with anger, rage, passion, and a whole slew of negative emotions.


That just isn't 40K.

40K is cartoon violence. Its core theme is that war is fun.
Yeeeeaaahhh. . . . sorta. . . .

Two of the most "40K" memes I can think of are Chainswords and "Burn Heretic". So like, sawing people in half and setting them on fire in a religious fervor. . .

And some of the novels do take themselves pretty seriously.

"War is fun!" is easily "Atrocity is fun!".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
Suicide Bombers work better for Genestealer Cults (They have literally ACME dinamite) than for imperial guard.
Agreed. Although IG used to have penal legion squads with explosive collars, and Demolition Charges which were hilariously suicidal at times.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 20:13:46


Post by: BlackoCatto


Or we shall receive none.

I am increasingly feeling with better access to plastics for 3rd party companies, GW would have to be on it's A game giving you not just quality but a good cost. A 10 man box at $35ish bucks with options pay walled behind other kits is now in direct competition against one at the same cost with relatively more options.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 20:59:51


Post by: PenitentJake


Most 3rd parties I've seen are still working in resin, though I haven't looked specifically for guard 3rd party.

Wargames Exclusive, Raging Heroes and W. Artel? Some beautiful sculpts to be sure, but all in resin. Like I said though, these three aren't known for their guard knock-offs.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 23:00:28


Post by: generalchaos34


PenitentJake wrote:
Most 3rd parties I've seen are still working in resin, though I haven't looked specifically for guard 3rd party.

Wargames Exclusive, Raging Heroes and W. Artel? Some beautiful sculpts to be sure, but all in resin. Like I said though, these three aren't known for their guard knock-offs.


https://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/

These guys have clean, modular models that are resonably priced and are excellent quality

and a personal favorite who ONLY does guard,

https://victoriaminiatures.com/

her stuff is some of the best out there for quality AND they have tons of female sculpts


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/22 23:46:09


Post by: kurhanik


PenitentJake wrote:
Most 3rd parties I've seen are still working in resin, though I haven't looked specifically for guard 3rd party.

Wargames Exclusive, Raging Heroes and W. Artel? Some beautiful sculpts to be sure, but all in resin. Like I said though, these three aren't known for their guard knock-offs.


You've missed out on Wargames Atlantic, which has several kits that can basically be Imperial Guard as is, or be made to look like specific Imperial Guard with just the smallest of touches. Their Grognard's set specifically can with very little work be made to something similar/close enough to Valhallan, Vostroyan, and Death Korps (for the last you need to get their WW1 German set for the gas mask heads), and they are generally 24 models for 35 dollars with deals for multibuys to make each box cheaper.

Quality wise they are pretty dang good too, especially compared to the current Guard models (which are the same price for 10). A new GW infantry box might be higher quality, but it will need some big quality of life bits to make it worth buying over the other options out there. Like actually having enough special weapons in the box, being an all in one Heavy Weapon Team, Command, and Infantry box, having lots of head options, or just being cheap. If GW makes a new Guard Infantry box that is 10 for 60$ and doesn't package in at the very minimum all of the special weapons, it would be hard to really justify the purchase. Me personally, the most I'd see myself willing to spend on official Guard models would probably be 40 for 10, and I'd actually want more than grenade launchers and flamers in the box, and some customization options, etc.

Also Artel not known for their Guard knockoffs? They have beautiful models that meld seamlessly into Guard, and can even have them lead by a Hero of the Imperium and his aide if you so desire.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/23 12:33:19


Post by: BlackoCatto


 kurhanik wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Most 3rd parties I've seen are still working in resin, though I haven't looked specifically for guard 3rd party.

Wargames Exclusive, Raging Heroes and W. Artel? Some beautiful sculpts to be sure, but all in resin. Like I said though, these three aren't known for their guard knock-offs.


You've missed out on Wargames Atlantic, which has several kits that can basically be Imperial Guard as is, or be made to look like specific Imperial Guard with just the smallest of touches. Their Grognard's set specifically can with very little work be made to something similar/close enough to Valhallan, Vostroyan, and Death Korps (for the last you need to get their WW1 German set for the gas mask heads), and they are generally 24 models for 35 dollars with deals for multibuys to make each box cheaper.

Quality wise they are pretty dang good too, especially compared to the current Guard models (which are the same price for 10). A new GW infantry box might be higher quality, but it will need some big quality of life bits to make it worth buying over the other options out there. Like actually having enough special weapons in the box, being an all in one Heavy Weapon Team, Command, and Infantry box, having lots of head options, or just being cheap. If GW makes a new Guard Infantry box that is 10 for 60$ and doesn't package in at the very minimum all of the special weapons, it would be hard to really justify the purchase. Me personally, the most I'd see myself willing to spend on official Guard models would probably be 40 for 10, and I'd actually want more than grenade launchers and flamers in the box, and some customization options, etc.

Also Artel not known for their Guard knockoffs? They have beautiful models that meld seamlessly into Guard, and can even have them lead by a Hero of the Imperium and his aide if you so desire.


Don't forget, for the same price as a Heavy Weapons box, you can get the Grognard Heavy Weapons box that also comes with all the bits for a Command. The box itself featuring enough to make 6 Heavy Weapons Teams or a combination to make your command. ALL IN PLASTIC!!!.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/27 21:07:22


Post by: waefre_1


 kurhanik wrote:
...Also Artel not known for their Guard knockoffs?..

Not to my mind - when I think "Guard knockoffs", I think Victoria Miniatures, Anvil Industries, Mad Robot Miniatures (surprised they didn't get mentioned yet), and Wargames Atlantic. When I think Artel W, I think mildly overdesigned cheesecake pinups (not that there's anything specifically wrong with that, of course - Artel has some serious skill when it comes to design, and it shows, just not in a way that makes me want to buy what's on sale).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/28 12:39:55


Post by: HeadMaster


 catbarf wrote:
Suicide bombers are a little too real for a lot of people and cross that line from escapist fantasy violence to something uncomfortable to play out. GW isn't going to release minis depicting civilians being raped or being gassed in extermination camps either. Being ostensibly part of the setting- in the background, hinted at, not really explored- does not make it suitable material for the tabletop.
For anyone saying suicide bombers is to real and hits to close to home, I'll encourage those people to check out the Demolition Truck from Red Alert 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMlev-mPFW8

Suicide units can work in a setting like 40K, its all about how the presentation is done. Westwood succeeded because they put a humorous spin on it.
Now that I think about it, the command and conquer series had a whole gaggle of self destructive units to play around with. Such fun memories.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/28 13:58:44


Post by: BlackoCatto


 waefre_1 wrote:
 kurhanik wrote:
...Also Artel not known for their Guard knockoffs?..

Not to my mind - when I think "Guard knockoffs", I think Victoria Miniatures, Anvil Industries, Mad Robot Miniatures (surprised they didn't get mentioned yet), and Wargames Atlantic. When I think Artel W, I think mildly overdesigned cheesecake pinups (not that there's anything specifically wrong with that, of course - Artel has some serious skill when it comes to design, and it shows, just not in a way that makes me want to buy what's on sale).


At this point I find it all kind of funny. The Guard knock offs are more so GW products.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/28 19:22:33


Post by: Slowroll


Well times do change regarding what is acceptable or not, and maybe that is now a taboo capability. Certainly there will be a line of clout chasers ready to tell us if that is the case.

I don't see a parachute on this guy though!

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Grot_Bomm





Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 00:49:45


Post by: Jarms48


HeadMaster wrote:
For anyone saying suicide bombers is to real and hits to close to home, I'll encourage those people to check out the Demolition Truck from Red Alert 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMlev-mPFW8

Suicide units can work in a setting like 40K, its all about how the presentation is done. Westwood succeeded because they put a humorous spin on it.

Now that I think about it, the command and conquer series had a whole gaggle of self destructive units to play around with. Such fun memories.


It's definitely dangerous ground and a line I doubt GW is willing to cross. Red Alert 2 came out before 911. Command & Conquer Generals which also had an entire terrorist faction, and while this game came out after 911 was published by EA Games. A company notorious for not caring for their consumer base or even their own developers. Command & Conquer Generals was also banned in China and Germany.

Another thing you have to consider is the fact we already have indirect forms of suicide units. Those vehicles and battlesuits that you can use a stratagem on to intentionally explode? Their crews just intentionally blew themselves up for the greater good (general term, not the Tau one). Any unit wielding a plasma weapon? Those soldiers would know the dangers of overcharging, and are willing putting their lives at risk in the hopes to do more damage to the enemy.

Despite this, I don't see GW giving humans explosive vests and blowing themselves up. That's the line in the sand and they're not willing to cross it. Why would they and risk to have their IP potentially banned or age restricted?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 08:42:59


Post by: Altima


I'd like the 'Guard to maybe get access to all the old marine vehicles if GW is going to be pushing grav tanks for their special little boys. Predators aren't bad tanks, and maybe the Guard could give Landraiders the love that Space Marines never did.

Beyond that, old school Penitent Engines used to be made out of the Sentinel chassis. I could easily see them being uparmored and then suddenly the guard has access to a fast moving suit of over-sized power armor that can perform reasonably well in melee and has the fire power of several heavy weapon squads. If the Sisters can pilot their power armor and new warsuits, I don't see why the IG couldn't do the same with a militarized version of the Penitent Engine.

 Galas wrote:
Suicide Bombers work better for Genestealer Cults (They have literally ACME dinamite) than for imperial guard.


Taken to its logical extreme, suicide bombers would work best for Tyranids.

Now I'm imagining a tervigon crawling up the table, spewing out squads of baneling equivalents that throw themselves into explodey, acidy death.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 09:02:12


Post by: kirotheavenger


40k has a lot of "noble sacrifice" type stuff, such as the vehicles automatically exploding.
I could actually see Sisters getting suicide units before Imperial Guard.
The distinction seems silly, and in purely objective terms it probably is. But I think it is tangible enough.

Don't Tyranids already have suicide bombers? Spore Mines.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 09:24:57


Post by: RegularGuy


I'm not sure how much I want "new" units vs fixed units.
I've never played with autocannon chimeras but I kind of like the idea. I'd like hydras to not be -1 against ground. I'd like a master of ordnance more relevant to the current tables. The latter two are codex fodder perhaps.

Rather than a strategm I like the idea of a command vehicle, maybe low damage high toughness.


It would be interesting to have something like sappers/engineers, (And perhaps with a strategem you can get the suicide blast effect), which might remove cover or line of sight effects on a peice of terrain they are next to for a shooting phase. Honestly with all the other outrageous horror and corruption aspects of the lore and even the rather greusome and salacious offerings in models, I think it's out of balance to carry a lot of angst over men sacrificing themselves to defeat an enemy being "too far" over any realistic sociologicial/sanity line (though civic sanity isn't always a given, satanic panic over D&D for instance)

Except maybe a command chimera variant none of these really warrant expansion of the model line though. Honestly there's already such a great diversity already I think a lot of niches are well filled, but just need to be optimized from edition to edition.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 09:32:44


Post by: kirotheavenger


I'd love a Chimera Command Vehicle. Essentially like a Company Commander, but for tanks. Two orders, and a much larger order range to represent vox.
This could be done without a new kit, although updating the Chimera kit with loads of aerials and stuff wouldn't hurt it's not necessary.

I like the idea of Veterans being effectively a multi-purpose unit.
The ability to buy different upgrades to reflect different roles, like they used to be able to do.
You can buy the unit carapace armour, camo cloaks, demolition charges, etc.

The problem with suicide bombers isn't that they're too horrible for 40k, it's that they hit too close to home.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 10:49:26


Post by: Cynista


The easiest way to get around the wargaming suicide bomber morality issue is to use drones. Like Necrons already do with the exploding Scarab strategem. Of course drones aren't really Guard's thing


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 14:31:01


Post by: generalchaos34


Cynista wrote:
The easiest way to get around the wargaming suicide bomber morality issue is to use drones. Like Necrons already do with the exploding Scarab strategem. Of course drones aren't really Guard's thing


Does everyone forget that the cyclops demolition vehicle already exists?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 14:48:22


Post by: Abaddon303


Something I would like to see for guard is a reworking of grinding advance. I haven't fully thought this through at all but perhaps target than double shoot for moving slowly they double shoot at half range or something like rapid fire.

It would help move away from the guard parking lot they tend to gravitate towards and encourage more mechanised cavalry charges to break through enemy lines.

I've just been reading Gaunts Ghosts Honour Guard and the tank battles are awesome!

Perhaps also a little more ability in melee on the charge. Dozer blades need to have a bit more of a bonus to them than just allowing them to hit on 5s. Maybe some AP or extra attacks.

9th edition really encourages movement and it would be nice to see Guard lean into that a little more...


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 15:23:36


Post by: Cynista


 generalchaos34 wrote:
Cynista wrote:
The easiest way to get around the wargaming suicide bomber morality issue is to use drones. Like Necrons already do with the exploding Scarab strategem. Of course drones aren't really Guard's thing


Does everyone forget that the cyclops demolition vehicle already exists?

You're right, I didn't even know it existed. I kind of love it


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 16:08:42


Post by: Flinty


Hunter-killer missiles are also effectively drones. Just really fast ones.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/04/30 16:14:18


Post by: waefre_1


We kind of already have a Predator in the Carnodon, though - it's got different weapon choices and I'm not up on any special rules the Predator gets so there might be something to gain there, but it's a T7 3+ M12" W12 twin-gun in turret, two side sponsons vehicle. I'd rather we could just use the Predator kit for it, of course ($111 for a fething not!Predator?! That'd be insane even if they could keep it in stock!).


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/01 08:27:47


Post by: Pyroalchi


I mentioned before that from a modelling perspective I would like a smaller tank. Anvil Industry seems to have brought out something in their digital forge that fits pretty well what I have in mind:
https://anvilindustry.co.uk/digital-tankette-and-tank-traps
About the hight of a guardsman and maybe as long as an Elysian tauros. It also looks sufficiently rivetted and boxy. And the "artillery" variant with either 4x heavy stubber (?) or a single plasma cannon (?) would be interesting.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/01 12:42:10


Post by: Jarms48


I do want more light vehicle options, such as:
- Centaurs: A return of the humble Centaur, the universal carrier of 40k. All they needed to do was increase the transport capacity to 6. That way it can also carry special weapon and heavy weapon squads. It could also be unique being the only open-topped transport the Guard have.

The some more unique Centaur options without any transport capacity but heavier weapons. All based off of real-life. Such as:

- Heavy Flamer
- Mortar
- Autocannon, or Lascannon

Spoiler:







More wheel vehicles would be nice too. We don’t have enough armoured cars in-game. Something like a Staghound, Daimler, Greyhound, etc.

Spoiler:



There’s four kinds of Armoured Cars I could see the Imperial Guard getting.

1) Something like a Daimler. Basically a Sentinel equivalent with a turret multi-laser and hopefully a coaxial heavy stubber. With all the same weapon upgrades as a Sentinel.
2) Something like an original Staghound (with the 37mm). Basically a Chimera equivalent in firepower. With a turret multi-laser, coaxial heavy stubber and hull heavy stubber. The turret weapon would have the same upgrade options as a Sentinel and the hull weapon the same as a Chimera.
3) Something a bit more modern like a French AML. Maybe with Taurox Prime level firepower, maybe even a Conqueror cannon or Battle cannon.
4) Would be something slightly more different. More a recon or support vehicle. Something inspired by a German Sd.Kfz.263. Armed with a single heavy stubber. Then either with the ability to call down artillery, remove a targets cover, or give units shooting at a target +1 to hit. The latter two would be aura abilities of course.

My opinion is Guard don’t need motorbike units. There’s enough of them in-game already. They should have cheap armoured car squadrons instead. Treat Armoured Sentinels more like heavy infantry but in vehicles, armoured cars would have 14 inch move, no close combat (WS6+ and 1 attack level bad), and similar stats to an armoured sentinel.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/01 15:31:24


Post by: waefre_1


Jarms48 wrote:
...My opinion is Guard don’t need motorbike units...

You know, I could see use for motorbike units as some sort of dragoon-type unit, kind of a sidegrade to Armored Fist squads (or for Rough Rider equivalents from not!MadMax worlds). We'd "need" it less than an armored car sort of unit, but there'd be room for them, I think.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/01 16:24:47


Post by: BlackoCatto


Why not have motor bikes, a further scouting option.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 03:58:56


Post by: RegularGuy


 BlackoCatto wrote:
Why not have motor bikes, a further scouting option.

I'm actually going to build my Atlan Jackals as passable humans using the "Sons of Chaos" biker heads from Mad Robot. I can slot them in with guard for narrative missions. Would be cool to have biker squads. Take a cue from GI joe and have a bike with a heavy bolter side car

By the way I'm now builiding a command chimera. Concept for narrative play will be it can issue one infantry order or one tank order per turn. It has a 24" range to order vox casters / tanks. Thinking it only carries six, or maybe 10. The commander has to stay on board for it to be a command tank, probably has an assistant, so that cuts it down to 10, or as I said, maybe down to six to help distinguish it from other transports (but still carry a command squad / special weapon squad) and off-set the benefits. Will have to think of what stratagems it would have. Perhaps as a warlord it could issue 2 orders per turn, or perhaps it's a stratagem.

Again, not a new model, but what about "spider holes"? Somehow some tokens are put down, and later inthe game you can pop out a special weapon squad from one of them.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 08:38:58


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think a command chimera shouldn't have any capacity.
All the interior volume is taken up by the long ranged vox sets, map tables, and such like.
If you look at typical APCs and their command variants, that's how it works.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 10:22:36


Post by: Flinty


I think the issue with getting new stuff for Guard is that all the modern combat roles are already represented by something. Conscripts, light infantry, heavy infantry, mechanised infantry. All done. Infiltrators, Ratlings. Super heavy assault infantry, Ogryns. Mounted infantry, rough riders. Even the super specialist roles of artillery spotter and forward air observer have been covered. Covers all relevant roles.

Russ variants and Forgeworld units fill all possible medium and heavy tank roles from tank destroyers through MBTs up to siege and assault tanks.

Every conceivable artillery has been set out at some point. Shell and rocket, dumb and smart.

The light armour role potentially hasn’t had much love, partly because all conceivable roles are taken by either the Sentinel, hellhound or chimera. Anything new is just rehashing something that already exists.

So anything new will be twiddling with aesthetics which are a very personal thing.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 11:13:13


Post by: kirotheavenger


I do agree.
Other than a Command Chimera, I don't think there's anything the Imperial Guard needs.
They just what they have to not suck, and turn some of the Forgeworld stuff to more mainstream, especially some of the discontinued stuff.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 14:48:20


Post by: Ravajaxe


This is a honest list, Flinty. But there is still a component missing. I'm repeating myself here, but the light reconnaissance vehicle is still lacking in Astra Militarumm arsenal. This is a component of some current or recent military forces that feels more plausible for AM than ol' cavalry. Except for parade shows, cavalry has dissapeared from armies since begginning of 2nd world war. AM has neither of them, and I would like the return of a fast reconnaissance vehicle much more than the return of rough riders.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 14:52:21


Post by: waefre_1


 Flinty wrote:
...all the modern combat roles are already represented...

Mostly? As mentioned, we are missing armored car equivalents (I don't count Sentinels since they're walkers and M9" - I'd be looking for something like a Salamander Scout vehicle with weapon options instead. Possibly Tauroxen if the transport capacity could be taken as an upgrade instead of being baked into the unit and regular Tauroxen got the same weapon options as Primes).

Oh, speaking of Tauroxen - we're also missing a basic troop transport with no baked in heavy weapons. Centaurs got Legends'd and could only carry half-squads anyways, so having a base Taurox be just the transport plus heavy stubber with an option to add some heavy weapons while the Prime got to be a FA choice that could buy transport capacity would be really neat (this would require Primes to not be locked to transporting Tempestus, but Tempestus should be just a regular fething <Regiment> anyways).

Also, I will note that this is the Imperial Guard. We don't need to look purely at modern combat roles for inspiration because we've got an entire galaxy worth of planets of any and all tech levels, and I think it'd be kind of cool for older unit types like Dragoons to get some love in the main codex to show that.

As for Command Chimeras, I think I'd rather GW just allowed orders to be issued while embarked. That would probably have to be restricted to Dedicated Transports specifically to avoid shenanigans with superheavies or fliers, but I'd rather they gave us the option to do it with transports other than the Chimera to give people a little more breathing space with themed listbuilding.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 15:28:00


Post by: Kanluwen


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think a command chimera shouldn't have any capacity.
All the interior volume is taken up by the long ranged vox sets, map tables, and such like.
If you look at typical APCs and their command variants, that's how it works.

The Chimera was designed to function as a command vehicle as well as transport. That's why it used to have a rule called "Mobile Command Vehicle", until it got ganked into a Stratagem.

Anyways, obligatory "don't bother with new units until the mechanics of the army are solidified into something meaningful to the current iteration of the game" comment.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 15:31:03


Post by: Flinty


Fluff wise though, sentinels are the light recon vehicle. And then there is the salamander as well. All that is missing is the aesthetics of one of these units using wheels rather than tracks or legs. The guard are supposed to be the modern/recent historical combat force equivalent, so while the galaxy had a lot of different ways of doing things, they pretty much boil down to troops that are already represented. Rough riders don’t need to be riding horses. Stick flight packs in them instead, but they still fill the role of rapid deployment infantry with frills. I did mine with mechanical exoskeletons.

I agree that Guard currently don’t have a small wheeled scout vehicle, but that niche is supplied with 2 separate vehicles that do that job (and then the Tauros as the ultr-light scout variant)


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/05/02 15:37:42


Post by: Kanluwen


If we desperately, desperately need a wheeled scout vehicle--that's where bikes could definitely show up in a meaningful way.

I cooked up rules years ago for Outriders that were bike-mounted and had an 'action' they could take, to deploy a Sensor Uplink that allowed for bonuses to artillery or indirect fire weapons against units that trigger the Sensors. The Outriders themselves were just standard Guardsmen with laspistols, a fast bike, and a voxcaster uplink.

One of the meaningful changes that could be made to Guard would be to address the idea of everything being able to be offensive. A few more utility/buff units could go a long way towards making the army feel unique in a world where Genestealer Cults are now a thing--especially if it's coupled with a meaningful revision to the 'basic infantry types' of Guard and restrictions on what armies like GSC can pull from the book.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/01 02:49:31


Post by: RegularGuy


I thought of this thread when I bumped into the Megaforce destroyer sand rail.



Not sure how to make it really work though. Lighter and faster than a sentinel would get it killed probably too quickly to be useful. Unless you could take it in numbers like the sentinel. Give it a standard storm bolter, and options you could change out. Hell, if you rigged it like the movie you could add 3 hunter killer missiles, or two heavy stubbers, or a hotshot lasgun.

Probably too crazy to be a serious option, on the other hand it might be fun to homebrew one for grins.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/02 21:23:54


Post by: waefre_1


Never seen Megaforce myself, and I hate to look at a buggy and just say "Tauros!", but I'd figure they'd be a good start for the chassis. Does the Destroyer have any special armor/defenses?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 02:26:32


Post by: RegularGuy


In the movie the only other special observations was it an ability to be remote piloted as a kamikaze attack, and it's paint turned dark at night as with the rest of the force vehicles. Beyond that, just speed kept it alive. It was a high speed glass cannon.

It was a cheesy movie (2min 16sec)



This was just the only other niche between Tauros and bikers I could think up.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 03:59:20


Post by: Jarms48


Tankettes something the size of a centaur, to use a real world comparison the Italian L3. Give it twin heavy bolters, which can be swapped for twin heavy flamers, or can be upgraded to autocannons or lascannons.

Half-tracks? Like the US M3 or M5. Cargo trucks? Just a cheap, no weapon transport, maybe even T5, 4+ save.

Expand Scions as their own thing. Melee Scions, with chainswords and hotshot laspistols. Shield Scions with pistols or chainswords.

Honestly, I can’t think of anything else than what I’ve already mentioned below.

Jarms48 wrote:
Damn, I feel like nearly everything for Guard has already been done and just needs to come back.

Regiment Options:
- All named regiments get at least 1 warlord trait, 1 relic, 1 stratagem, 1 order, and 1 character.
- Bring back Attila, Death Korps of Krieg, Elysia, Last Chancers, Praetorians, Tanith 1st and Only as named regiments.
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers Militarum Tempestus units can swap their Tempestus Regiment keyword for the Ordo keyword.

Special Weapons:
- Bolters, Heavy Stubbers and Anti-material Rifles as additional special weapon options. Anti-material Rifles would be similar autocannon strength sniper rifles.

Heavy Weapons:
- Heavy Flamers (see the old DKOK Grenadiers), Multi-lasers, and Twin Heavy Stubbers for infantry.
- Heavy Stubbers as hull and sponson options for tanks.

Supreme Commander:
- Super-heavy Tank Commander
- Lord Solar Macharius: He's dead sure, but we should be able to imagine we're playing during his crusade.

HQ:
- Auxiliary Commander: Basically a company commander for auxiliary units.
- Mounted Commander: A horse mounted company commander.
- Chimera Artillery Command Vehicle: Orders artillery units.
- Hellhound Commander: Orders units of hellhounds.
- Salamander Command Tank: Orders units of salamander scouts.
- Sentinel Commander: Orders units of sentinels.

Troops:
- Dragoons: Basically infantry squads on horses. No heavy weapon, but can take 2 special weapons.
- Grenadiers: Basically scions but no aerial drop and has the Regiment; keyword.
- Ogryns: To give them something over Bullgryns.
- Penal Legion Squad: Basically the melee alternative to veterans. Has WS3+ and BS4+, starts with lasguns but can swap these out for shotguns, or laspistols and chainswords.
- Platoons: Some way to bring multiple Infantry Squads per Troops choice.
- Ratling Infantry Squad: Ratlings with lasguns, can optionally upgrade them with demolition charges.
- Veterans: Bring them back.

Dedicated Transport:
- Centaurs: The only issue with them was the transport size. Increase them to 6 models, then they can actually carry things like special weapon and heavy weapon squads.
- Chimeras: More turret weapon options, bring back the Autocannon and Twin Heavy Bolters, add Lascannons, Plasma Cannons, and Multi-meltas. Add an option to make it a medical vehicle with a 6+++ aura and the ability to return/heal models.
- Chimerax
- Chimedon
- Chimerro

Elites:
- Forward Operators: Basically an infantry squad that can deploy 9 - 12 inches away from enemy models and enemy deployment.

Fast Attack:
- Armoured Cars: Something that looks like a Staghound/M8/Daimler/etc.
- Drop Sentinels: Bring these guys back as well. Similar to the above they should be made into Militarum Tempestus units. Giving that faction some much needed heavy firepower.
- Rough Riders: They just have to come back.
- Salamander Scout: As heavier tracked alternatives to sentinels.
- Sentinel Powerlifters: Remove their scout vehicle ability and give them the support vehicle ability from the trojan instead.
- Tauros: They also need to come back, except with Elysians as a codex gone they should be made Militarum Tempestus units. With a buff to BS3+ to represent their scion crews.

Heavy Support:
- Artillery Carriages: Too many to name, bring them all back. All of them.
- Battlecannon Carriage: Similar to the old artillery carriages there needs to be one with a direct-fire weapon.
- Hydras: With options to swap the autocannons for lascannons, or skyeagle rockets.
- Leman Russ (Twin Multi-melta): No idea on what it'd be called, but could you imagine 8 turret multi-melta shots coming out after grinding advance?
- Manticores: More rocket and missile options. Such as swapping the 4 Storm Eagle Rockets for either 8 Hellfury Missiles, 8 Hellstrike Missiles, 8 Hunter-killer Missiles, or 8 Skystrike Missiles.
- Militarum Tempestus Heavy Weapons Squad: With the above as well this would allow an MT detachment to actually take Brigades.
- Ordinance Batteries: Bring back the old school chimera based open-topped Griffon, Medusa, and Colossus.
- Thunderer: More thunderer variants such as battle cannon, and vanquisher cannon.

LoW:
- Macharius Heavy Tanks: We have the famous Octoblade so having a single Macharius plastic kit with 8 options would be awesome as well. The 4 new variants could have things like the Tremor Cannon, Magma Cannon, Stormsword Cannon, and Baneblade Cannon (with no Autocannon). Basically a cheaper method to get Baneblade scale weaponry and cutting out the chaff like them being transports or paying for hull Demolisher Cannons as well.

Fortifications:
- Turret Emplacement: Bring back the old Chimera and Leman Russ turret bunkers.


Jarms48 wrote:
I do want more light vehicle options, such as:
- Centaurs: A return of the humble Centaur, the universal carrier of 40k. All they needed to do was increase the transport capacity to 6. That way it can also carry special weapon and heavy weapon squads. It could also be unique being the only open-topped transport the Guard have.

The some more unique Centaur options without any transport capacity but heavier weapons. All based off of real-life. Such as:

- Heavy Flamer
- Mortar
- Autocannon, or Lascannon

Spoiler:







More wheel vehicles would be nice too. We don’t have enough armoured cars in-game. Something like a Staghound, Daimler, Greyhound, etc.

Spoiler:



There’s four kinds of Armoured Cars I could see the Imperial Guard getting.

1) Something like a Daimler. Basically a Sentinel equivalent with a turret multi-laser and hopefully a coaxial heavy stubber. With all the same weapon upgrades as a Sentinel.
2) Something like an original Staghound (with the 37mm). Basically a Chimera equivalent in firepower. With a turret multi-laser, coaxial heavy stubber and hull heavy stubber. The turret weapon would have the same upgrade options as a Sentinel and the hull weapon the same as a Chimera.
3) Something a bit more modern like a French AML. Maybe with Taurox Prime level firepower, maybe even a Conqueror cannon or Battle cannon.
4) Would be something slightly more different. More a recon or support vehicle. Something inspired by a German Sd.Kfz.263. Armed with a single heavy stubber. Then either with the ability to call down artillery, remove a targets cover, or give units shooting at a target +1 to hit. The latter two would be aura abilities of course.

My opinion is Guard don’t need motorbike units. There’s enough of them in-game already. They should have cheap armoured car squadrons instead. Treat Armoured Sentinels more like heavy infantry but in vehicles, armoured cars would have 14 inch move, no close combat (WS6+ and 1 attack level bad), and similar stats to an armoured sentinel.




Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 06:51:38


Post by: Olthannon


I'm sure this has already been brought up but a plastic kit for a close air support fighter or something would be nice.

And yes, bringing back the salamander would be great, was a nice little kit.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 08:21:10


Post by: StewMan Group


Crassus chassis vehicles of some sort would be great in plastic though I know extremely unlikely. Also just general crews for vehicles like Ork mek Gunz. The basilisk looks pretty naked without some guys hanging out on the back of it.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 17:22:01


Post by: waefre_1


IIRC there used to be a separate tank crew kit/sprue as crew could survive the destruction of their vehicle, but GW probably just assumes that people will buy extra Guardsmen to use as crewmen at the moment.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 17:44:30


Post by: PenitentJake


I want an HQ who is known as a hero to abhumans- someone who gives buffs to Ogryns and Ratlings.

We also need lieutenant level generic HQ's- every command option being a company level commander is ridiculous. I tried to distribute a guard force across 8 territories for map based campaign, and we had to house rule Platoon commanders as HQ instead of elite- otherwise we needed 9 company level commanders for 200 troops.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 19:24:58


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 RegularGuy wrote:
I thought of this thread when I bumped into the Megaforce destroyer sand rail.



Not sure how to make it really work though. Lighter and faster than a sentinel would get it killed probably too quickly to be useful. Unless you could take it in numbers like the sentinel. Give it a standard storm bolter, and options you could change out. Hell, if you rigged it like the movie you could add 3 hunter killer missiles, or two heavy stubbers, or a hotshot lasgun.

Probably too crazy to be a serious option, on the other hand it might be fun to homebrew one for grins.


You get me!


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/03 19:38:52


Post by: RegularGuy


PenitentJake wrote:
I want an HQ who is known as a hero to abhumans- someone who gives buffs to Ogryns and Ratlings.

We also need lieutenant level generic HQ's- every command option being a company level commander is ridiculous. I tried to distribute a guard force across 8 territories for map based campaign, and we had to house rule Platoon commanders as HQ instead of elite- otherwise we needed 9 company level commanders for 200 troops.


To your point, in my own fluff Company Commanders really span from generals, majors, colonels all the way down to lieutenants, and corresponding gradations for NCOs. I also vary the figure I’m putting together (with conversion parts) accordingly (e.g. Anything under general has a short coat, where as generals have a long coat, etc).

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 RegularGuy wrote:
I thought of this thread when I bumped into the Megaforce destroyer sand rail.
...
Not sure how to make it really work though. Lighter and faster than a sentinel would get it killed probably too quickly to be useful. Unless you could take it in numbers like the sentinel. Give it a standard storm bolter, and options you could change out. Hell, if you rigged it like the movie you could add 3 hunter killer missiles, or two heavy stubbers, or a hotshot lasgun.

Probably too crazy to be a serious option, on the other hand it might be fun to homebrew one for grins.


You get me!


I'm going to homebrew these anyways and report back


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/04 00:33:39


Post by: Jarms48


PenitentJake wrote:
I want an HQ who is known as a hero to abhumans- someone who gives buffs to Ogryns and Ratlings.

We also need lieutenant level generic HQ's- every command option being a company level commander is ridiculous. I tried to distribute a guard force across 8 territories for map based campaign, and we had to house rule Platoon commanders as HQ instead of elite- otherwise we needed 9 company level commanders for 200 troops.


A platoon commander is literally a lieutenant. A company commander is a Captain or Major. A regiment commander is a Colonel. While an army group commander is a general.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/04 04:14:22


Post by: PenitentJake


A platoon commander may be literally a lieutenant, but if they are an elite choice instead of HQ, what they are literally doesn't mean jack because they can't actually lead a detachment in the game.

Hence our house rule making them HQ.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/04 19:20:10


Post by: BlackoCatto


Yea, actual lore friendly Guard organisation omfor a unit took a hit with 8th


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/04 21:40:11


Post by: The Black Adder


Abaddon303 wrote:

9th edition really encourages movement and it would be nice to see Guard lean into that a little more...


This is also the wish of my guard playing friend after our last game a week ago. He wants to see a return of rough riders for extra mobility and counter attack potential.

Whilst he manoeuvred for line of sight, he couldn't push into my white scars successors in any meaningful way. It's a big weakness of the codex.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/04 23:56:22


Post by: Jarms48


PenitentJake wrote:
A platoon commander may be literally a lieutenant, but if they are an elite choice instead of HQ, what they are literally doesn't mean jack because they can't actually lead a detachment in the game.

Hence our house rule making them HQ.


Why should they lead a detachment? They're lieutenants, you can take several platoons in a game. If you want extra characters you're better off house ruling a return to the old platoon mechanics.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/05 01:31:45


Post by: Heafstaag


So much stuff could be done to the guard. I have said for years, and will continue to say give the guard cavalry options. Heavy cav, light cav, shooty cav, fighty cav.

I want an option for all cavalry, and by cavalry I mean magnificent gene-bred horses, army. Mounted hqs, elite, troops, fast, and heavy. Maybe not heavy, but maybe horse drawn artillery or something would be fun.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/05 01:47:19


Post by: PenitentJake


Jarms48 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
A platoon commander may be literally a lieutenant, but if they are an elite choice instead of HQ, what they are literally doesn't mean jack because they can't actually lead a detachment in the game.

Hence our house rule making them HQ.


Why should they lead a detachment? They're lieutenants, you can take several platoons in a game. If you want extra characters you're better off house ruling a return to the old platoon mechanics.


So let's say you've got 5k points worth of guard on a planet. When they all come together, they can fight as a single HUGE Brigade, or a double Battalion.

From this 5k force, however, you need to station troops at 8 different locations to monitor activity. There are not 8 company commanders in the army, but each force needs to be able to hold its own until reinforcements arrive from neighbouring territories, which means it needs an HQ to lead it. I don't use named characters, and the Commissariat have not yet been assigned to this force.

Every army should have minimally two layers of generic command. Space Marine Lieutenants, if I'm not mistaken, are HQ choices. Sisters have their Palatine. Admech have layers to Techpriests, etc. It just doesn't make sense to me to create a character profile that has the word "Commander" in it, then make it a unit type that doesn't command.

Company level commanders feel fluffy to me if you have one per 2k points. It doesn't feel terribly fluffy to have more than that except under special story based circumstances. And it feels outright unfluffy to have more than 1 per 1k points.

As for returning to the Platoon system, I love that idea, and whole heartedly support it, but again, that can essentially be done using the detachment system... If you just make platoon commanders HQ. When they lead a Patrol Detachment, voila- that's their platoon. In a Combat Patrol sized game, the Platoon fights on its own. At Incursion, you may have a Command Battalion and the Platoon, or you could have two Platoons fighting together. The detachment system to me IS the platoon system, only more fleshed out- you just need a command section that includes appropriate HQ's to lead the various components.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 00:59:20


Post by: Jarms48


PenitentJake wrote:

So let's say you've got 5k points worth of guard on a planet. When they all come together, they can fight as a single HUGE Brigade, or a double Battalion.

From this 5k force, however, you need to station troops at 8 different locations to monitor activity. There are not 8 company commanders in the army, but each force needs to be able to hold its own until reinforcements arrive from neighbouring territories, which means it needs an HQ to lead it. I don't use named characters, and the Commissariat have not yet been assigned to this force.

Every army should have minimally two layers of generic command. Space Marine Lieutenants, if I'm not mistaken, are HQ choices. Sisters have their Palatine. Admech have layers to Techpriests, etc. It just doesn't make sense to me to create a character profile that has the word "Commander" in it, then make it a unit type that doesn't command.

Company level commanders feel fluffy to me if you have one per 2k points. It doesn't feel terribly fluffy to have more than that except under special story based circumstances. And it feels outright unfluffy to have more than 1 per 1k points.


I don't know why you're using points. Lets use actual numbers. A planet with 10 billion people, with manpower equivalent to 1% of their population would have a PDF size of 100 million soldiers. Those 100 million soldiers, for ease of maths lets say they're broken up into armies of 200 thousand soldiers. That planet then has 500 field armies, each led by a General.

Those armies would be further broken up into Corps of about 4 Corps per army, so 50 thousand soldiers each. Led by a lesser General, most likely a Lieutenant General. Each Corps is then broken up into 4 divisions of 12.5 thousand soldiers, lead by a Major General.

Those divisions are broken into 5 brigades of 2500 soldiers each, led by a Brigadier. Then those divisions are broken up into 2 regiments of 1250 soldiers, led by a Colonel. Those regiments are broken up into 5 companies of 250 soldiers, led by a Major or Captain. Those companies are then broken up into 5 platoons, led by a Lieutenant.

So this hypothetical planet would have:
- Some unspecified senior command staff not specified here overseeing the army generals, as well as a supreme commander.
- 500 Generals
- 2000 Lieutenant Generals
- 8000 Major Generals
- 40,000 Brigadiers
- 80,000 Colonels
- 400,000 Majors or Captains
- 2,000,000 Lieutenants

Do you see the problem here? A single planet has more Lieutenants than there are space marines in the galaxy, and you want to make them HQ choices.

Lieutenants make sense in a Marine detachment because in a single Marine company there might only be 1 Captain and 2 Lieutenants.

A single Guard regiment might have 5 or more Captains and 25 or more Lieutenants. For that very reason I see no issue with up to 3 Captains or "Company Commanders" being on the battlefield at one time.

Of course this example isn't perfect, real world numbers, organisational structure, and even ranks aren't the same across every country. The same could be said for the Imperium as well. The Guard aren't perfectly standardised across the galaxy.

The same thing could be said for Tank Commanders who would be the equivalent to a Captain in a tank company. Lord Commissars and Primaris Pskyers, where there may only be 1 of which in the entire regiment. Yet, you don't seem to have any restrictions on them?


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 01:22:55


Post by: Platuan4th


Jarms48 wrote:

Lieutenants make sense in a Marine detachment because in a single Marine company there might only be 1 Captain and 2 Lieutenants.


That's actually exactly how many we're told a Company has. Add in the Chaplain, Apothecary, Ancient, and Company Champion and you have the command staff of a single Marine Company.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 02:15:29


Post by: PenitentJake


The world in question is an Agri-world with a population of less than one million. With an M.

Scale way, way down.

But in theory, even if we didn't scale down to the size of my planet, lets talk about your regiment with it's five captains and twenty five lieutenants. How many points would that regiment be?

If you divided that regiment by five, because that's how many HQ's there are, how big would those armies be? More than 3k points I bet.

Even if not, 5 HQ's mean the entire regiment has to fit into one Brigade and one Battalion. Any more than that and you're out of HQ's. This regiment, with its five HQ's could hold five territories max, and that would mean each of the five could only be defended with a Patrol detachment.

Starting to see it yet?

We need more ranks of generic HQ. The Commissariat, Telepathicus and Scion Command is parallel and disconnected from the command structure of the guard itself.

I can't honestly believe anyone is defending a single level of generic Command in an army as huge as the guard- especially when it's so easy to fix- you don't have to change anything on the Platoon Commander's datacard at all to make it work- just change the unit type and call it a day.






Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 03:14:01


Post by: Goose LeChance


They don't need new units, they need to bring back Kasrkins and every single model in the range needs a visual update, with better proportions and at least some modularity for crying out loud. If they scale creep the infantry then all the tanks need to be bigger too. Bring back Mordians, even if it's just a single box of infantry. If they can release dozens of redundant marine units they can release some alternate troops for Guard.

An entire army of plastic Krieg would be acceptable too.

If they absolutely must include females(debatable), make them optional heads only, no different body shapes/sizes.

IG could be one of the most popular armies if done right. Or just build me a time machine instead.



Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 04:42:15


Post by: Jarms48


PenitentJake wrote:
The world in question is an Agri-world with a population of less than one million. With an M.

Scale way, way down.


Even if the planet was 1 million people and they had 1% of their population under arms that's still 10,000 soldiers. You'd still be looking at around 200 Lieutenants. Which is the equivalent of 2 space marine companies, who have a maximum of 4 lieutenants.

PenitentJake wrote:
But in theory, even if we didn't scale down to the size of my planet, lets talk about your regiment with it's five captains and twenty five lieutenants. How many points would that regiment be?

If you divided that regiment by five, because that's how many HQ's there are, how big would those armies be? More than 3k points I bet.

Even if not, 5 HQ's mean the entire regiment has to fit into one Brigade and one Battalion. Any more than that and you're out of HQ's. This regiment, with its five HQ's could hold five territories max, and that would mean each of the five could only be defended with a Patrol detachment.


That's not hard to work out:

HQ:
- 5 company commanders and their command squads is 300 points with no upgrades.

Troops:
- 125 infantry squads is 6875 points.

Elites:
- 25 platoon commanders and their command squads is 1250 points.

All together that's 8425 points. With no upgrades, no special weapon squads, no heavy weapon squads, no commissars, no priests, etc. Dividing that by 5 is 1685 points.

PenitentJake wrote:
Starting to see it yet?

We need more ranks of generic HQ. The Commissariat, Telepathicus and Scion Command is parallel and disconnected from the command structure of the guard itself.

I can't honestly believe anyone is defending a single level of generic Command in an army as huge as the guard- especially when it's so easy to fix- you don't have to change anything on the Platoon Commander's datacard at all to make it work- just change the unit type and call it a day.


You're missing the most fundamental point here. A single Guard lieutenant is so miniscule in the setting that they should not be comparable to a space marine lieutenant in the lore. That's why they should be troops. An infantry platoon in 5th edition consisted of 1 platoon command squad (back then the lieutenant was included in the cost), 2 - 5 infantry squads, 0 -5 heavy weapon squads, 0 - 2 special weapon squads, and 0-1 conscript squad.

That was so close to being perfect. The only thing that needed to change in 5th edition was to remove conscripts from it. That way you could spam cheap infantry and avoid the platoon command squad tax, but you'd lose out on the order, and utility the platoon gave you.

There's another issue I haven't mentioned by moving platoon commanders to HQ rather than keeping them as Elites, or bringing back platoons. You're losing orders, at the moment you can take 3 company commanders and 3 platoon commanders that's 9 orders. Some people take a brigade and a battalion of infantry squads, or 3 battalions of infantry squads. By implementing this you've just restricted our maximum orders to 4 in a single battalion. That's a huge nerf.

Goose LeChance wrote:
They don't need new units, they need to bring back Kasrkins and every single model in the range needs a visual update, with better proportions and at least some modularity for crying out loud. If they scale creep the infantry then all the tanks need to be bigger too. Bring back Mordians, even if it's just a single box of infantry. If they can release dozens of redundant marine units they can release some alternate troops for Guard.


Generic grenadiers would be awesome.




Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 06:34:48


Post by: Goose LeChance


Yeah.

And I didn't mean to trash on the idea of new units entirely, but the model range has been neglected for so long, it needs a complete overhaul. There is also the ever present fear of an ATV/TacSuit/Nundam situation.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 07:00:43


Post by: BrianDavion


Goose LeChance wrote:
Yeah.

And I didn't mean to trash on the idea of new units entirely, but the model range has been neglected for so long, it needs a complete overhaul. There is also the ever present fear of an ATV/TacSuit/Nundam situation.


and by a "ATV/TacSuit/Nundam" you mean "GW might introduce a model you yourself think is ugly" cause I got one word for you sir, Taurox


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 07:10:35


Post by: Goose LeChance


It's not just that I think they're ugly, but in the case of the Nundam and Warsuit, they step on the toes of far better looking, and thematically appropriate models.

Nobody was asking for them either, so it's not like GW listens to community feedback on new units to add anyway.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/06 08:00:51


Post by: BrianDavion


Goose LeChance wrote:
It's not just that I think they're ugly, but in the case of the Nundam and Warsuit, they step on the toes of far better looking, and thematically appropriate models.

Nobody was asking for them either, so it's not like GW listens to community feedback on new units to add anyway.


of course no one was asking for the paragorn warsuit, because sisters players where too busy on cloud nine happy we got our line in plastic. the idea of a second line of new units was more then anyone expected.

That said generally the types of things your average sisters player asked for was a MBT (the exorcist was artillery, the hole in the order of battle was pretty obvious) some sort of "tougher infantry unit, ala terminators, and maybe an awesome melee unit.

the paragorn warsuit fills the "terminator" role nicely without just being "more stolen marine wargear"


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/07 08:15:14


Post by: Sumilidon


Having a Guard army there are some things I would like to see added - based on the general WW2 / Stormtrooper aesthetic GW went for,

Infantry Fortifications. I don't mean buildings, I mean the ability for a guard unit to place down sandbag walls that provide cover - actual sandbag models.
Bomber. Guard have essentially only one flier - I'd like to see a bomber added to the range.
Psyker models - Actual, decent models.
Bikers - (because horses are silly). A scouting unit that can zoom up and have a "deadzone" effect where units cannot deepstrike within a much larger radius (bit like what SM has, but much more mobile)

In reality we will get Gaunt's Ghosts, an upgrade sprue and maybe some dice.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/07 11:30:36


Post by: Jarms48


Sumilidon wrote:
Having a Guard army there are some things I would like to see added - based on the general WW2 / Stormtrooper aesthetic GW went for,

Infantry Fortifications. I don't mean buildings, I mean the ability for a guard unit to place down sandbag walls that provide cover - actual sandbag models.
Bomber. Guard have essentially only one flier - I'd like to see a bomber added to the range.
Psyker models - Actual, decent models.
Bikers - (because horses are silly). A scouting unit that can zoom up and have a "deadzone" effect where units cannot deepstrike within a much larger radius (bit like what SM has, but much more mobile)

In reality we will get Gaunt's Ghosts, an upgrade sprue and maybe some dice.


Guard have a ton of flyers, they're just all Forge World. The Vendetta and Vulture should just be added back into the Guard codex like they were in 5th edition, they combine them all into a single kit like the Leman Russ being able to build 1 of 4 variants. Guard also have 2 bombers, the only issue is that they're LoW choices. That being both Marauder variants. If they just made them flyers they might actually be alright.

Though I would love a bomber that's not based off of the Flying Fortress. Something more akin to a WW2 dive bomber would be awesome.

Minefields, barbed wire, tank traps, maybe even deploying sentry guns, could be interesting too. Though these could be pre-game actions for Infantry Squads than point costed units. Maybe making a generic combat engineer unit that can set up tank fighting positions, reinforce pre-existing terrain pieces, foxholes, and slit trenches. Make Guard unique in that they can add terrain into their deployment zone rather than just having to rely on (currently useless) fortifications. GW could even make purchasable terrain for players to use with these abilities.

I'd like to see more defensive psykers, ones trained to specifically shutdown enemy psykers. I'd like to see at least a second Guard psychic powers table with more enemy debuffs, things like give an enemy unit a -1 to hit, something that can turn off a units aura for a turn, something that can reduce move/advance/charge distance on a unit for a turn, etc.

I don't mind bikes being added, but not at the expense of horses. The Imperium is vast. There's 100% feral, feudal and black powder worlds out there that are made up of cavalry and just been given more advanced infantry equipment by the Munitorum. On the flip side more advanced worlds might have robotic horses like the Ad-Mech, or genetically altered horses like Krieg.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/07 14:46:16


Post by: PenitentJake


Jarms48 wrote:

That's not hard to work out:

HQ:
- 5 company commanders and their command squads is 300 points with no upgrades.

Troops:
- 125 infantry squads is 6875 points.

Elites:
- 25 platoon commanders and their command squads is 1250 points.

All together that's 8425 points. With no upgrades, no special weapon squads, no heavy weapon squads, no commissars, no priests, etc. Dividing that by 5 is 1685 points.


So then the question is: can you field a 1685 army with one HQ. If the answer is no (and it is), then you NEED an HQ that isn't a company commander OR you need more than five company commanders. Period. If calling them lieutenants is the problem, call them whatever else you need to call them to make it work.


Jarms48 wrote:

You're missing the most fundamental point here. A single Guard lieutenant is so miniscule in the setting that they should not be comparable to a space marine lieutenant in the lore.


It isn't about the setting- it's about the mechanics of an army. Guard lieutenants may be insignificant because there are trillions of soldiers in the guard, but their job is to lead battle groups, and that is the HQ battlefield role description in a nut shell. Their stats won't change, so they are nowhere near comparable to a Space Marine lieutenant (or even a more typical Space Marine).

Jarms48 wrote:

That's why they should be troops. An infantry platoon in 5th edition consisted of 1 platoon command squad (back then the lieutenant was included in the cost), 2 - 5 infantry squads, 0 -5 heavy weapon squads, 0 - 2 special weapon squads, and 0-1 conscript squad.

That was so close to being perfect. The only thing that needed to change in 5th edition was to remove conscripts from it. That way you could spam cheap infantry and avoid the platoon command squad tax, but you'd lose out on the order, and utility the platoon gave you.


I liked the platoon system myself- I view it as the predecessor to both Formations and Detachments. But if I recall correctly, platoons could only exist within armies- they couldn't fight on their own like detachments can. That's specifically where my complaint is coming from- you have a huge army; you want to break it up into battlegroups so that you can achieve multiple objectives on different fronts. You need HQ to do that.

Jarms48 wrote:

There's another issue I haven't mentioned by moving platoon commanders to HQ rather than keeping them as Elites, or bringing back platoons. You're losing orders, at the moment you can take 3 company commanders and 3 platoon commanders that's 9 orders. Some people take a brigade and a battalion of infantry squads, or 3 battalions of infantry squads. By implementing this you've just restricted our maximum orders to 4 in a single battalion. That's a huge nerf.


Order reduction is a valid point, and one which I hadn't considered.

But look at the armies you are describing and then think back to our theoretical regiment above. Let's assume we're dealing with 2k armies. So in your first scenario (Single Brigade), you're using 60% of your command resources to control less than 25% of your army? It doesn't feel like that makes a lot of sense to me, though it does still technically work... But it's all downhill from here.

Now lets look at Scenario two (Brigade + Battalion). That uses your entire command section- all five HQ choices in the entire regiment- to command less than 25% of your forces. An unpredicted series of orbital bombardments wipes out that army, and you've got 6400 points of troops with no command. Is this logical? Does it make sense? Is it fluffy?

Now let's look at your third scenario (3 Battalions). Sorry, not possible. It requires 6 HQ's, and we've only got 5.

Maybe to get around the Order Issue, two lieutenants count as a single HQ? Maybe you have the option of taking them as HQ or Elite? I don't know, but there's a fix there somewhere. An army list just needs multiple levels of generic command in order to be functional.

The good news is I think we'll get that in the new dex- it might not be achieved by making Platoon Commanders HQ- they may invent something ABOVE the company command AND something BELOW. I'd be fine with that; it would give a standing force the flexibility to deploy multiple detachments to multiple locations. That's really all I'm looking for.





Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/08 00:40:04


Post by: Jarms48


So then the question is: can you field a 1685 army with one HQ. If the answer is no (and it is), then you NEED an HQ that isn't a company commander OR you need more than five company commanders. Period. If calling them lieutenants is the problem, call them whatever else you need to call them to make it work.


You certainly could, it's called a Patrol, Outrider, Spearhead, and Vanguard detachment. Do you know how many companies are typically in a brigade in real life? Typically 4. A brigade is a real-life formation, and if Infantry Platoons return the you could 100% field enough infantry to represent 2-3 infantry companies working together. It would actually be very realistic.

It isn't about the setting- it's about the mechanics of an army. Guard lieutenants may be insignificant because there are trillions of soldiers in the guard, but their job is to lead battle groups, and that is the HQ battlefield role description in a nut shell. Their stats won't change, so they are nowhere near comparable to a Space Marine lieutenant (or even a more typical Space Marine).


It is about the mechanics of an army. That's what I've been breaking down for you. How a functional army works, marines aren't a typical standing army but Guard are. That's why I'm drawing from real-life, making real-life assumptions and just adding a few simplifications.

I liked the platoon system myself- I view it as the predecessor to both Formations and Detachments. But if I recall correctly, platoons could only exist within armies- they couldn't fight on their own like detachments can. That's specifically where my complaint is coming from- you have a huge army; you want to break it up into battlegroups so that you can achieve multiple objectives on different fronts. You need HQ to do that.


Platoons for Guard have existed since the inception of Guard as a faction. It was only 8th edition that removed them, because it was a completely fundamental change in army construction where you wanted to gain as much CP as possible by taking as many detachments as possible. This is the only time when you could ever justify that each "brigade" being the equivalent to a previous "platoon".

Now with 9th edition and each detachment costing CP you want to take as little detachments as possible. So a 9th edition Guard codex should be a return to form, where you are deploying a company or companies of Guardsmen in a single brigade. Which compared to other factions actually makes brigade and battalion detachments make thematic sense.

Order reduction is a valid point, and one which I hadn't considered.

But look at the armies you are describing and then think back to our theoretical regiment above. Let's assume we're dealing with 2k armies. So in your first scenario (Single Brigade), you're using 60% of your command resources to control less than 25% of your army? It doesn't feel like that makes a lot of sense to me, though it does still technically work... But it's all downhill from here.


My example is based off of actual military organisation, mixed with how the Guard is described to be organised typically in the lore, as well as on the table top. Obviously there won't be enough order coverage for every single unit in this scenario.

Now lets look at Scenario two (Brigade + Battalion). That uses your entire command section- all five HQ choices in the entire regiment- to command less than 25% of your forces. An unpredicted series of orbital bombardments wipes out that army, and you've got 6400 points of troops with no command. Is this logical? Does it make sense? Is it fluffy?


This is simply incorrect, there's still going to be Generals, Brigadiers, Colonels, and Majors. Lieutenants, Captains, Majors, and Colonels are all field-grade offices who fight on or close to the conflict. If there's a orbital bombardment that wipes out a company level officer, so the captains, the most experienced Lieutenants in those companies would be promoted to Captain.

It's actually incredibly simple. To replace those Lieutenants they'd start promoting NCO's.

Maybe to get around the Order Issue, two lieutenants count as a single HQ? Maybe you have the option of taking them as HQ or Elite? I don't know, but there's a fix there somewhere. An army list just needs multiple levels of generic command in order to be functional.

The good news is I think we'll get that in the new dex- it might not be achieved by making Platoon Commanders HQ- they may invent something ABOVE the company command AND something BELOW. I'd be fine with that; it would give a standing force the flexibility to deploy multiple detachments to multiple locations. That's really all I'm looking for.


We did previously have this, but it was scrapped after the 3.5 edition codex. You could take a Captain, Major, or Colonel for your Company Commander. Whilst the Infantry Platoon was lead by a Lieutenant.

Guard could use other HQ vehicles (that I've already covered here as well), such as:
- Sentinel Commanders: That can order Sentinels.
- Chimera Artillery Command Vehicles: That can order any of our many Artillery vehicles.
- Tank Commanders becoming more diverse: Being able to be taken in Carnodon's, Hellhound's, Leman Russ Tanks, Malcadors, or Thunderers. While also being able to order each of those vehicles.
- Super-heavy Tank Commanders: Which would be awesome to see.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/08 05:29:14


Post by: PenitentJake


Jarms48 wrote:

You certainly could, it's called a Patrol, Outrider, Spearhead, and Vanguard detachment. Do you know how many companies are typically in a brigade in real life? Typically 4. A brigade is a real-life formation, and if Infantry Platoons return the you could 100% field enough infantry to represent 2-3 infantry companies working together. It would actually be very realistic.


Okay, I haven't done the math, but guard are cheap; you probably can get a Patrol up to 1685, or lets round to 2000 by maxing out all your unit sizes, especially your tanks. But there aren't a lot of slots in a Patrol, and only certain builds will and play styles will allow you to build a 2k army using only a single Patrol detachment, and I don't think it would be possible to field build a 3k army with using the current rules using only a single Patrol detachment, unless there are super expensive Forgeworld units I don't know about.

As for the other detachment types, some of those might be easier to get to 2k or even 3k, but they also come with a CP cost. If platoons return, but platoon commanders continue to be elites or troops, it doesn't really solve this problem, because the platoon could not function on its own in a game of 40k because it acts as a single troop choice, so it would still need a Company Commander model to accompany it.

Jarms48 wrote:

It is about the mechanics of an army. That's what I've been breaking down for you. How a functional army works, marines aren't a typical standing army but Guard are. That's why I'm drawing from real-life, making real-life assumptions and just adding a few simplifications.


This is the misunderstanding part. When I say "army", I mean the thing I'm putting on the table; I appreciate your knowledge of how real armies work, and thanks for the education, but it isn't relevant to any of the points I'm making. I am very specifically talking about how if you build an Astra Militarum roster that allows you to field detachments using the existing rules to capture and defend territories, it doesn't make sense for all the detachments that you're going to need as you expand your footprint to be led by Company Commander models. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my original post.

So lets say in my theoretical roster, I get to start with 9 territories, so I need 9 detachments. Let's say I get a 2k Brigade, 2 x 1500 Battalions, 3 other mixed detachments (your choice between Patrol, Vanguard, Outrider or Spearhead) at 1k each and 3 final mixed detachments of 500 points each. That model means I must have 13 Company Commander models on my roster. This means that if I conquer territories, and I have to break my standing forces into smaller detachments in or to hold them, I will only be able to conquer four territories before I run out of HQ models. Now if I use the optional HQ spots in each of those detachments, I can get an additional 10 HQ in there for a total of 23 Company Commander models. This means I can now hold 23 territories in total.

Even at the minimum number of HQ choices (13), I'm not sure the ratio of Company Commander models to other models in the army is appropriate. But at the maximum number of HQ choices (23), that ratio is way out of whack. What I am arguing is that IF Platoon Commanders were HQ choices, then I could field, say 6 Company Commanders- one for each of the 6 largest detachments, and I could fill every other HQ slot with a Platoon Commander (17). So you're dealing with the same 9500 points worth of models in total, but now instead of having the whacky ratio of 23 Company Commander models to the rest of the roster, it's 6 Company Commanders and 17 Platoon Commanders to the rest of the roster. This just seems more nuanced, and gives you a bit more structure to work with.

Jarms48 wrote:

Now with 9th edition and each detachment costing CP you want to take as little detachments as possible. So a 9th edition Guard codex should be a return to form, where you are deploying a company or companies of Guardsmen in a single brigade. Which compared to other factions actually makes brigade and battalion detachments make thematic sense.


In a single battle, I'm usually only going to field a single detachment, but I need the potential to create as many small detachments as I can using only the total number of HQ choices I get according to my starting detachment breakdown.

Jarms48 wrote:

My example is based off of actual military organisation, mixed with how the Guard is described to be organised typically in the lore, as well as on the table top.


Again, I'm only interested in how the Guard are organized on the tabletop. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Jarms48 wrote:

... there's still going to be Generals, Brigadiers, Colonels, and Majors. Lieutenants, Captains, Majors, and Colonels are all field-grade offices who fight on or close to the conflict.


No there aren't because none of those things have 40k datacards or models. The only HQ choices that exists in 40K is the Company Commander, the Tank Commander and a bunch of named dudes. The Commissariat and Telepathica are separate organizations, so their HQ's aren't relevant to my point either.

Jarms48 wrote:


We did previously have this, but it was scrapped after the 3.5 edition codex. You could take a Captain, Major, or Colonel for your Company Commander. Whilst the Infantry Platoon was lead by a Lieutenant.

Guard could use other HQ vehicles (that I've already covered here as well), such as:
- Sentinel Commanders: That can order Sentinels.
- Chimera Artillery Command Vehicles: That can order any of our many Artillery vehicles.
- Tank Commanders becoming more diverse: Being able to be taken in Carnodon's, Hellhound's, Leman Russ Tanks, Malcadors, or Thunderers. While also being able to order each of those vehicles.
- Super-heavy Tank Commanders: Which would be awesome to see.


Yes, now we're on the same page again, because if anything on this list returned, platoon commanders could stay elite- there would be enough other generic HQ Choices. My argument all along has been that limiting the generic command structure of the guard to a single rank is far too limiting for a roster that needs to be able to simultaneously field many small detachments in order to hold territory. I proposed making Platoon Commanders HQ choices because they currently have datacards, and it would somewhat solve the problem with the least amount of effort. Certainly bringing back all the stuff you mention is a better solution, but it would be so much work for GW that I don't want to dream that impossible dream. I'd be happy with 2-3 ranks of generic HQ; what they are called is irrelevant to me.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/11 07:20:11


Post by: Jarms48


PenitentJake wrote:
Yes, now we're on the same page again, because if anything on this list returned, platoon commanders could stay elite- there would be enough other generic HQ Choices. My argument all along has been that limiting the generic command structure of the guard to a single rank is far too limiting for a roster that needs to be able to simultaneously field many small detachments in order to hold territory. I proposed making Platoon Commanders HQ choices because they currently have datacards, and it would somewhat solve the problem with the least amount of effort. Certainly bringing back all the stuff you mention is a better solution, but it would be so much work for GW that I don't want to dream that impossible dream. I'd be happy with 2-3 ranks of generic HQ; what they are called is irrelevant to me.


I could write more, but you seem very passionate and not willing to capitulate. So let's just agree to disagree. I don't want platoon commanders to be elites, I want platoons back in a more simplistic form to suit the new 9th edition format and for platoon commanders to be troops. As well as command squads to be merged back with platoon and company commanders. That's what I want.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I've just noticed the FW Lightning doesn't have the autocannon anymore.



I'd love these to come back, give it what I've been suggesting for the Hydra. Long barrelled autocannon 72 inch, Heavy 2, S7, AP-1, Damage 3, +1 against Aircraft.

I'd also love to see the Thunderbolt Fury variant comeback, with the twin avenger bolt cannons. So compared to the Avenger Strike Fighter it'd have Heavy 20, S6, AP-2, Damage 2 shots. I'd probably have to go up to like 270+ points though.


Idea for new astra militarum units @ 2021/07/11 08:54:16


Post by: Olthannon


GW have been going about adding scenery with guns recently to various armies, so I could see it happening quite easily with the guard. Heavy weapons teams already exist but perhaps options for them to be "entrenched" to add more defences? Maybe that wouldn't equate to new units though..