Spinning off from another thread where I reckoned an Astartes could make short work of a Cyberdyne Systems T-800 Model 101.
By all means use that as a jumping off point, but please do allow me first to set the random parameters to help frame the discussion.
1. The Marine is a ‘basic’ Marine. That means Bolt Rifle, Power Armour and Combat Blade. Plus frag, krak and if they come with them, Bolt Pistol (don’t have the current Codex I’m afraid).
2. The Other is similarly equipped. For instance, a Predator would have the same gear as the one from Predator. Blades, targetter, plasma caster etc. The Cyberdyne Systems T-800 Model 101 would have its Phased Plasma Rifle In The 40 Watt Range, and so on and so forth.
3. Because reasons, this is a straight one-on-one fight.
4. Because it’s their job, the Astartes is the invader, meaning The Other will have the home field advantage, in that it’s in its element.
5. Your argument must be based in some form of canon. For instance, and to continue the theme, the Dark Horse Predator, Terminator and Alien comics would be allowed - but fan theory or fan fiction is not. That’s not to dunk of fan stuff, it’s just to prevent hand-wavium wins for either side.
6. If you disagree with someone’s input, come with input of your own!
The xenomorph from Alien could presumably put up a bit of a fight, it's a tyranid for all intents and purposes after all. 1v1? I think it would struggle, unless it was extra sneaky like.
Predators, although fairly bad ass in the movie, against a space marine? Big wussy invisible weenies in comparison. Pretty difficult to rip someone's spine out if it's reinforced and covered in various special goo. Maybe the plasma caster could do some damage, but then one spray of bolter fire and it's good night xenos filth.
Maybe a hunter from Halo would be a good 1v1, unless of course the space marine happens to shoot it in it's comically weak back..
Does anyone know how fast a bolter's bolts actually go? It's pretty easy to determine that the "average Marine versus average Jedi" fight would hinge entirely around whether a Jedi would be able to stop or reflect them. It's canon in SW (at least legends) that bullets are too fast for a Jedi to catch, but obviously, even discounting the use of a lightsaber, blaster shots are not.
That is, unless we're really stressing the whole "home field advantage" thing, since if the Jedi is able to get within melee range then the Marine is as good as toast.
Flipsiders wrote: That is, unless we're really stressing the whole "home field advantage" thing, since if the Jedi is able to get within melee range then the Marine is as good as toast.
Unless Ceramite is anything like Beskar, or like...
Flipsiders wrote: That is, unless we're really stressing the whole "home field advantage" thing, since if the Jedi is able to get within melee range then the Marine is as good as toast.
Unless Ceramite is anything like Beskar, or like...
Plus how well Jedi do against hundreds of coin-sized frag grenades is anybody's guess.
Every "lightsaber-resistant material" is only lightsaber-resistant due to writer fiat. There's no common thread between them, at least not anymore, so the best thing to do is to just go off the assumption that nothing can stop a lightsaber unless whoever the mouse is employing today has ran out of ideas and needs to come up with a totally new and original way for the villains to be scary.
Flipsiders wrote: Every "lightsaber-resistant material" is only lightsaber-resistant due to writer fiat. There's no common thread between them, at least not anymore, so the best thing to do is to just go off the assumption that nothing can stop a lightsaber unless whoever the mouse is employing today has ran out of ideas and needs to come up with a totally new and original way for the villains to be scary.
Everything that exists in any work of fiction is writer's fiat. You can't dismiss an argument by invoking that.
Flipsiders wrote: Every "lightsaber-resistant material" is only lightsaber-resistant due to writer fiat. There's no common thread between them, at least not anymore, so the best thing to do is to just go off the assumption that nothing can stop a lightsaber unless whoever the mouse is employing today has ran out of ideas and needs to come up with a totally new and original way for the villains to be scary.
Everything that exists in any work of fiction is writer's fiat. You can't dismiss an argument by invoking that.
My issue isn't that they exist, it's that they're arbitrary. The only materials I could find on the wiki which actually had a reason for being lightsaber-resistant were Cortosis and the various force-imbued metals. Some of the ones that only resist lightsabers for a short amount of time are reasonable, but the rest of the materials (such as Beskar and Phrik) are entirely arbitrary, and unless a canon source tells us what they have in common which allows them to endure --not reflect-- lasers, I'm going to say they shouldn't be used as a basis for anything.
If we want to be generous, it's probably fair to say that Ceramite might be one of the materials that takes more effort for a lightsaber to get through, but that's hardly a measure of immunity either way.
Both Jedi and Space Marines are very dependent on plot armor. When The Force/Emperor is with you, you can stand against literally endless hordes and not falter. But when the plot shifts, and your time is up, you and all your friends go down like chumps to mooks.
Could the auto-senses in a marine helmet, or just their instincts and training spot a predator? Maybe. Would the plasma just burn through the ceremite breastplate? Also maybe. Depends who’s the protagonist and what the demands of the story are.
One of the issues debating fictional universes.
Is the pred shooting Tau pulse rifle plasma? Or the Good Stuff (tm) that one-shots marines?
Nevelon wrote: Both Jedi and Space Marines are very dependent on plot armor. When The Force/Emperor is with you, you can stand against literally endless hordes and not falter. But when the plot shifts, and your time is up, you and all your friends go down like chumps to mooks.
Could the auto-senses in a marine helmet, or just their instincts and training spot a predator? Maybe. Would the plasma just burn through the ceremite breastplate? Also maybe. Depends who’s the protagonist and what the demands of the story are.
One of the issues debating fictional universes.
Is the pred shooting Tau pulse rifle plasma? Or the Good Stuff (tm) that one-shots marines?
Indeed. A friend of mine, who is a Marvelfan, keeps arguing that Wolverine would be able to kill hundreds of Marines while I'm like, no, Wolverine would just be a Space Wolve Pack leader with a pair of Lightning claws, feel no pain and It will not die, Marines are just that good. Iron Man is also just a more handy crisis suit.
Is Batman simply Konrad Curze? Probably not, he's just an imperial Guardsman with Konrad Curzes gear.
Same with the Predator. I'd say his plasmacaster is indeed a plasma gun and his wristblade is a lightning claw, so he lacks armour for sure, but he'd be a good match for a Space Marine.Though admittedly predators have been beaten by a Catachan, an arbites, a genestealer and by some Scions. I guess for the upgraded predator you'd need a Primaris Marine to match, they're also similarly bad written fiction.
Also, as a Star Trek Fanboy I'd say a Starfleet officer would easily deflect Bolter shots with his force field and a phaser rifle on maximum mode would punch easily through Marine armour like a Lascannon. In 40K terms though he'd probably just be a firewarrior with a 4++ invul against shooting but no armour in CC whatsoever .
Aliens are an easy one, they're simply purestrain genestealers.
I guess we need some tougher emenies, I'd like to throw in The Blob. He can only be killed by Space Wolve frost weapons, but other than that he'll nomnom all dem marines.
Star Treks Q can snap the Marine (or the planet he is on... or the solar system...) out of existence. And judging from a Voyager episode where one Q tried to kill himself they can hardly die at all, even if they want to.
A DS9 shapeshifter like Odo might also be interesting as I'm not sure if those can be killed at all without an energy weapon like a phaser or disruptor. Bolters, knifes and grenades should Not really have any permanent effect.
Nevelon wrote: Both Jedi and Space Marines are very dependent on plot armor. When The Force/Emperor is with you, you can stand against literally endless hordes and not falter. But when the plot shifts, and your time is up, you and all your friends go down like chumps to mooks.
Could the auto-senses in a marine helmet, or just their instincts and training spot a predator? Maybe. Would the plasma just burn through the ceremite breastplate? Also maybe. Depends who’s the protagonist and what the demands of the story are.
One of the issues debating fictional universes.
Is the pred shooting Tau pulse rifle plasma? Or the Good Stuff (tm) that one-shots marines?
Indeed. A friend of mine, who is a Marvelfan, keeps arguing that Wolverine would be able to kill hundreds of Marines while I'm like, no, Wolverine would just be a Space Wolve Pack leader with a pair of Lightning claws, feel no pain and It will not die, Marines are just that good. Iron Man is also just a more handy crisis suit.
Is Batman simply Konrad Curze? Probably not, he's just an imperial Guardsman with Konrad Curzes gear.
Same with the Predator. I'd say his plasmacaster is indeed a plasma gun and his wristblade is a lightning claw, so he lacks armour for sure, but he'd be a good match for a Space Marine.Though admittedly predators have been beaten by a Catachan, an arbites, a genestealer and by some Scions. I guess for the upgraded predator you'd need a Primaris Marine to match, they're also similarly bad written fiction.
Also, as a Star Trek Fanboy I'd say a Starfleet officer would easily deflect Bolter shots with his force field and a phaser rifle on maximum mode would punch easily through Marine armour like a Lascannon. In 40K terms though he'd probably just be a firewarrior with a 4++ invul against shooting but no armour in CC whatsoever .
Aliens are an easy one, they're simply purestrain genestealers.
I guess we need some tougher emenies, I'd like to throw in The Blob. He can only be killed by Space Wolve frost weapons, but other than that he'll nomnom all dem marines.
Although you obviously mentioned it, you're definitely underrating Wolverine's healing aspect. I'm honestly not too familiar with Wolverine's comic appearances, so I can't say exactly what he's gone through without dying, but I know it's a lot. Deadpool, though, has the same healing factor as Wolverine and has walked off a nuke, and he doesn't even have the indestructible endoskeleton. Wolverine could definitely take on the average tactical squad without being incapacitated, as long as there weren't any psykers around. You're probably right on Iron Man, though, at least in his pre-2010's comics depictions.
EDIT: I should clarify: When I mean "nuke," I mean a direct hit with a nuclear bomb. Not glancing.
I always enjoy this sort of fun thought experiment. IMHO due to 40k's origins, most of the well known sci-fi have had some influence on the development of 40k,so for me, the easiest way to make a comparison is to find the closest equivalent in the 40k universe and compare that to a marine as a jumping off point:
Dutch and his Special Forces in Predator ≈ Catachans Starship Troopers ≈ Guardsman Starship Troopers Arachnid ≈ Hormagaunt Alien Xenomorph ≈ Hormagaunt or Genestealer Alien Queen ≈ Tyranid Warrior Predator ≈ Lictor with a gun T-100 ≈ Necron Warrior Jedi ≈ Psyker Inquisitor Light Saber ≈ Power Sword
etc.
Of course not everyone will agree with my equivalents, and how powerful each is will depend on the writer, plot armour etc, and within 40k power level varies tremendously between fluff and tabletop, and between different editions and publications.
I find it easiest rather than initially comparing things against a Space Marine, to instead start of comparing to a Guardsman, since most sci-fi settings have an equivalent (Storm troopers/clone troopers; MI from Starship Troopers etc) and see the power dynamic between the guardsman equivalent and the "other" (jedi, xenomorph, predator etc) and then see if the power difference is similar to the 40k equivalent to establish a baseline to then compare to a Space Marine.
But that's just me, probably overthinking it and getting carried away with my own head canon.
Pyroalchi wrote: Star Treks Q can snap the Marine (or the planet he is on... or the solar system...) out of existence. And judging from a Voyager episode where one Q tried to kill himself they can hardly die at all, even if they want to.
A DS9 shapeshifter like Odo might also be interesting as I'm not sure if those can be killed at all without an energy weapon like a phaser or disruptor. Bolters, knifes and grenades should Not really have any permanent effect.
Star Trek has a lot of god-like entities a Marine would have a hard time to fight against because Marines aren't clever enough to talk them to death like a proper Starfleet Officer can .
Nevelon wrote: Both Jedi and Space Marines are very dependent on plot armor. When The Force/Emperor is with you, you can stand against literally endless hordes and not falter. But when the plot shifts, and your time is up, you and all your friends go down like chumps to mooks.
Could the auto-senses in a marine helmet, or just their instincts and training spot a predator? Maybe. Would the plasma just burn through the ceremite breastplate? Also maybe. Depends who’s the protagonist and what the demands of the story are.
One of the issues debating fictional universes.
Is the pred shooting Tau pulse rifle plasma? Or the Good Stuff (tm) that one-shots marines?
Indeed. A friend of mine, who is a Marvelfan, keeps arguing that Wolverine would be able to kill hundreds of Marines while I'm like, no, Wolverine would just be a Space Wolve Pack leader with a pair of Lightning claws, feel no pain and It will not die, Marines are just that good. Iron Man is also just a more handy crisis suit.
Although you obviously mentioned it, you're definitely underrating Wolverine's healing aspect. I'm honestly not too familiar with Wolverine's comic appearances, so I can't say exactly what he's gone through without dying, but I know it's a lot. Deadpool, though, has the same healing factor as Wolverine and has walked off a nuke, and he doesn't even have the indestructible endoskeleton. Wolverine could definitely take on the average tactical squad without being incapacitated, as long as there weren't any psykers around. You're probably right on Iron Man, though, at least in his pre-2010's comics depictions.
EDIT: I should clarify: When I mean "nuke," I mean a direct hit with a nuclear bomb. Not glancing.
Do we have an example of something in 40K that can withstand something like a Nuke? I mean, at Isstvan Marines dug in to survive the virus bombing, Death Guard Marines are also known to be able to walk through radiation, but that's different from a direct hit... What we can say though is that Wolverines skeleton is made from adamantium - the same material as Terminator armour. So things that can punch through terminator armour in 40K should be able to punch Wolverine as well.
it's impossible to really compare things, especially stuff that doesn't make logical sense.
How do you heal off being ground zero of a nuclear detonation? You would simply cease to be. You can just hand-wave and say "he just can", okay then, he's literally invincible and wins every fight by default. Until he meets Vulkan who has similar problems and now it's an infinitely recurring fight because both sides are incapable of fully losing.
Not to mention characters vary wildly in levels of ability between authors.
If you take a Marine at their worst, they're just marginally better than a Guardsman. If you take them at their best, they're practically gods.
I mean, do these space marines adhere to real-world physics in these fights, or are they "GW logic" space marines, where GW pretends that they don't have such things as a soft, squishy, essentially human-durability brain inside a very good very hard helmet/armor? (often not even in that armor as well)
Any kind of explosive weapon that generates a sufficient shockwave should be able to realistically kill an astartes just by turning his brain into soup inside his armor, and anyone with any kind of telekinesis-type powers like the force should have the ability to just concentrate on the head area and put the smoosh on it.
Generally though, because it's impossible to convey that that's happening and it kinda kills the tension, it's pretty rare to have characters with those kinds of abilities do something like that - Stranger Things is really the only thing I can remember recently that even acknowledges that someone with psychic abilities would be able to basically kill someone via mega-stroke.
The shockwave needs to propagate through the armour/skull first. Especially if they're fully sealed inside a suit, I don't think Astartes surviving explosions is the most ridiculous thing they do.
As for force or psychic abilities.
Well numerous psychic powers in 40k do similar things, the Blood Angels have a psychic power to boil the blood in people's veins. It's not very powerful on the tabletop but it's brutal in lore.
How does the force even work? Obviously it can move and crush objects, but I believe it's only ever been showing moving/crushing things the user can see - so no crushing a brain only know where it is by inference.
kirotheavenger wrote: The shockwave needs to propagate through the armour/skull first. Especially if they're fully sealed inside a suit, I don't think Astartes surviving explosions is the most ridiculous thing they do.
As for force or psychic abilities.
Well numerous psychic powers in 40k do similar things, the Blood Angels have a psychic power to boil the blood in people's veins. It's not very powerful on the tabletop but it's brutal in lore.
How does the force even work? Obviously it can move and crush objects, but I believe it's only ever been showing moving/crushing things the user can see - so no crushing a brain only know where it is by inference.
Flipsiders wrote: That is, unless we're really stressing the whole "home field advantage" thing, since if the Jedi is able to get within melee range then the Marine is as good as toast.
Unless Ceramite is anything like Beskar, or like...
Ceramite doesn't need to be like Beskar. Assuming the Jedi is the size of a regular human then stabbing a Space Marine with a lightsaber would barely hurt the marine. Maybe if the Jedi stabbed the Space Marine in the heart or in the head it could do some serious damage but anywhere else it would just be a minor inconvenience. Also, let's remember that a lightsaber's diameter is smaller (I assume) than a soda can and then remember the size of a Space Marine. The lightsaber is even more harmless if we use a Primaris Marine. The Jedi would have to be extremely lucky to A) dodge all the bullets and B) actually cut the Space Marine. Considering the Space Marine probably won't be cut too seriously as Jedi fighting styles tend to primarily go towards the chest (in the movies at least, can't show decapitations to the kids) all the Space Marine would have to reach up to grab the Jedi and squeeze, then splat! no more Jedi. Several Jedi could probably take a Space Marine down quickly but one-on-one, not a chance.
Here's some Sci-Fi alien species that could take on an Astartes without jumping into "well, they're basically gods" segment like the Q.
#1 - The Vorlons (Babylon 5) The Vorlons are an extremely ancient race that has evolved into being energy beings, but they're far from god-like. Indeed, B5 energy beings were shown as still being susceptible to projectile energy weapons, though kinetic weapons could pass right through them. In order to be accepted around the other races, and for the purposes of gathering information and protecting them, the Vorlons would wear Encounter Suits; psionically powered suits.
Space Marines would likely be able to withstand the psionic assault of the Vorlons, whose powers are akin to that of a rogue psyker, but once the Encounter Suit is destroyed, the Space Marine has no default method of fighting the Vorlon. It'll take some time, as the Vorlon's psionic blasts will not immediately kill the Space Marine, but the Vorlon will likely be victorious.
#2 - Dark Elf (Thor 2: The Dark World) The main reason these guys could win, especially considering a home field advantage, is that the Dark Elves have access to the black hole grenade. Considering that this weapon can kill and destroy an enemy that seemed to be stronger than THOR (who is, as we said, in that "god tier" so is off-limits as far as I'm concerned), then it should have no problem dealing with an Astartes. If it wasn't home-field advantage, I might have given this one to the Astartes in being able to dodge or avoid the grenade, but with home-field advantage, the Dark Elf is going to lay this as a trap.
#3 - Zerg Ultralisk (Starcraft Series) Should this count could as a "soldier"? I feel like this shouldn't count. It's a soldier in the same way that a Carnifex is a soldier. It's not. It's a walking tank. Moving on.
#4 - Avatar (XCOM series) A psionically powered super soldier that can teleport around the battlefield, has rapid healing capabilities, equipped with hybrid plasma-psionic weaponry, and can mind control the Space Marine? AND it's home field advantage? A single basic Astartes has no chance against this. Now, if there were multiple Astartes involved, I give it the Astartes, but one-on-one this one goes to the Aliens. That's X-COM baby.
#4 - Avatar (XCOM series) A psionically powered super soldier that can teleport around the battlefield, has rapid healing capabilities, equipped with hybrid plasma-psionic weaponry, and can mind control the Space Marine? AND it's home field advantage? A single basic Astartes has no chance against this. Now, if there were multiple Astartes involved, I give it the Astartes, but one-on-one this one goes to the Aliens. That's X-COM baby.
I'm not so convinced. One ranger with Rapid Fire makes short work of the Avatar. That's a regular human with a plasma-shotgun.
Psy powers in XCom also seem relatively tame next to a lot of the psychic powers 40k can boast. Although I only know XCom from the game itself where 40k powers are probably even more tame so
#4 - Avatar (XCOM series) A psionically powered super soldier that can teleport around the battlefield, has rapid healing capabilities, equipped with hybrid plasma-psionic weaponry, and can mind control the Space Marine? AND it's home field advantage? A single basic Astartes has no chance against this. Now, if there were multiple Astartes involved, I give it the Astartes, but one-on-one this one goes to the Aliens. That's X-COM baby.
I'm not so convinced. One ranger with Rapid Fire makes short work of the Avatar. That's a regular human with a plasma-shotgun.
Psy powers in XCom also seem relatively tame next to a lot of the psychic powers 40k can boast. Although I only know XCom from the game itself where 40k powers are probably even more tame so
Two ways I'd argue against that. First, you just said "plasma shotgun". That's more advanced than the default load-out of a Space Marine. Secondly, you're assuming that the Ranger gets to go first and gets in range of the Avatar and hits, which isn't for sure (indeed, getting a reflection here is really, really terrifying). Since this is Avatar homefield advantage, we can assume that the Avatar gets to go first, which in a one-on-one engagement and not pulling punches means Space Marine is mind controlled. If it wasn't for these two things together, I'd say you're right and I'd give it to the Space Marine, but since the author said all advantages go to the Sci Fi alien, well, that's pretty much gg vs the Avatar.
EDIT: Ehh... he didn't say all advantages, so more wiggle room for the Marine there. Still, that Mind Control is a jerk move!
I'm sure Astartes would have pretty high Willpower, the Mind Control could fail.
Plasma is one of those things that varies *wildly* in sci-fi lore, it's impossible to tell exactly how deadly it is.
Although thinking about it, a Plasma Rifle in XCom would reliably kill a human in modern/'conventional' armour, you need fancy alloys and stuff to survive even one shot.
I had initially assumed XCom plasma was fairly weak, but you've made me think about it more and perhaps it is more equivalent to 40k's and very deadly.
Which would suggest that Avatars are very strong and you may have a point.
I likewise didn't consider the defensive mental stats of the Marine. You're right, the Mind Control has a high failure chance, even with the very high mental score of the Avatar. I was thinking more the "Commander's Avatar" that was a guaranteed 100% chance, but that's NOT the version that's used by the aliens. You actually have me thinking the Marine can win this one now!
At the end of the day, it all just comes down to who writes the fictional encounter between the two fictional universes.
This is what it comes down to in all these comparisons: because no science fiction or fantasy actually takes place in a realistic material universe, and 40k absolutely takes place in an incredibly heavily plot-armored setting where many many inconveniences of the actual material universe are suspended because it wouldn't be cool.
Nobody ever happens to have a sniper rifle or an auto-targeting system or whatever that happens to be at the ready to decorate the armor of the squad of astartes with the contents of the skull of the heroic sergeant who isn't wearing a helmet, because GW is not in the business of writing Forever War or Starship Troopers where war is intended to be portrayed as the terrifying, emasculating, random idiotic mess it actually is, they're in the business of writing a cool power fantasy designed to allow you, the reader, to imagine that you are a gigantic super powerful invincible spaceman that can crush all your foes.
The answer to who would win between an Astartes and the doom guy or the halo guy or the space jedi or the predator is just whether the story is being written by someone who is a fanboy of the space marine or a fanboy of the other thing. They'll imagine themselves in the shoes of whichever they're the fan of, and they'll jerk themselves raw while imagining how awesomely their thing will dispatch the thing that other people who are fans of the wrong thing like.
People are already doing it, in this thread, immediately, because that's all these discussions ever are.
Its like that hilariously stupid show that they had on the """"""""""""""""""""""""""History""""""""""""""""""""" channel called 'THE ULTIMATE WARROR" or something, where a couple of amazing early oughts dudebros use fake computer stuff to 'scientifically prove' who would win in a fight between two combatants like ninjas pirates KGB agents samurai etc and then they pay hilariously overacting larpers to re-enact what they imagine the fight would go like. There is no aspect of that show that isn't absolute peak cringe content.
Although you obviously mentioned it, you're definitely underrating Wolverine's healing aspect. I'm honestly not too familiar with Wolverine's comic appearances, so I can't say exactly what he's gone through without dying, but I know it's a lot. Deadpool, though, has the same healing factor as Wolverine and has walked off a nuke, and he doesn't even have the indestructible endoskeleton. Wolverine could definitely take on the average tactical squad without being incapacitated, as long as there weren't any psykers around. You're probably right on Iron Man, though, at least in his pre-2010's comics depictions.
Deadpool was cursed by Thanos so he literally cannot die. It's not his healing factor that's saving him. Wolverine definitely can die - though he tends to get resurrected via one MacGuffin or another.
I'd say Wolverine has a fair shot against a single Astartes at close quarters. But an Astartes is basically Captain America ++ in terms of strength, speed and reflexes. More than one, he's in big trouble. At range, he's lost, he loses all the time to ranged attackers if he can't sneak up on them.
Although you obviously mentioned it, you're definitely underrating Wolverine's healing aspect. I'm honestly not too familiar with Wolverine's comic appearances, so I can't say exactly what he's gone through without dying, but I know it's a lot. Deadpool, though, has the same healing factor as Wolverine and has walked off a nuke, and he doesn't even have the indestructible endoskeleton. Wolverine could definitely take on the average tactical squad without being incapacitated, as long as there weren't any psykers around. You're probably right on Iron Man, though, at least in his pre-2010's comics depictions.
Deadpool was cursed by Thanos so he literally cannot die. It's not his healing factor that's saving him. Wolverine definitely can die - though he tends to get resurrected via one MacGuffin or another.
I'd say Wolverine has a fair shot against a single Astartes at close quarters. But an Astartes is basically Captain America ++ in terms of strength, speed and reflexes. More than one, he's in big trouble. At range, he's lost, he loses all the time to ranged attackers if he can't sneak up on them.
I may be incorrect, but I remember the comic with the nuke being pre-Thanos (about 07 or so?). The logic they went with is that there was at least one atom of Deadpool left, which enabled his to regrow. The healing factor is proportional to damage and all that. I'm also somewhat positive that Wolverine has survived impacts of a similar caliber anyway.
Flipsiders wrote: That is, unless we're really stressing the whole "home field advantage" thing, since if the Jedi is able to get within melee range then the Marine is as good as toast.
Unless Ceramite is anything like Beskar, or like...
Ceramite doesn't need to be like Beskar. Assuming the Jedi is the size of a regular human then stabbing a Space Marine with a lightsaber would barely hurt the marine. Maybe if the Jedi stabbed the Space Marine in the heart or in the head it could do some serious damage but anywhere else it would just be a minor inconvenience. Also, let's remember that a lightsaber's diameter is smaller (I assume) than a soda can and then remember the size of a Space Marine. The lightsaber is even more harmless if we use a Primaris Marine. The Jedi would have to be extremely lucky to A) dodge all the bullets and B) actually cut the Space Marine. Considering the Space Marine probably won't be cut too seriously as Jedi fighting styles tend to primarily go towards the chest (in the movies at least, can't show decapitations to the kids) all the Space Marine would have to reach up to grab the Jedi and squeeze, then splat! no more Jedi. Several Jedi could probably take a Space Marine down quickly but one-on-one, not a chance.
Seriously disagree. Jedi don't normally thrust with the saber, they slash, and we know that it can delimb and cut opponents in two. Jedi also have access to force push (either disarming the marine or knocking them down/about), choke/crush (yes, even Luke used it), and can be incredibly swift in short bursts as well as other abilities (force lightning and others). Their main issue would be in dodging the marine's bolter fire - can they stop/deflect the bullets (ala Kylo Ren stopping the blaster bolt) to get close enough and if a bolter round connects with a lightsaber can the explosive concussion affect the Jedi? In melee, a marine without a power weapon would be at a disadvantage - the lightsaber could hack non-protected weapons (combat knife, chain sabre) in half, and cut bolters/bolt pistols in half if not simply "disarm" the marine. Non-jedi masters would probably not be a match for a marine's martial skills, but a good chop from a lightsaber would likely cut the marine deeply - not likely an instantly fatal blow (unless decapitating) considering the marines enhanced physique, but would easily put them at the Jedi's mercy.
I think every on-screen fatality from a lightsaber has been a stab with the exception of Dooku. Although I imagine that's because it's a lot less violent than cleaving someone in twaine.
We also saw in the Phantom Menace that light sabers need to spend some effort working their way through a thick steel door.
I imagine the thermal shielding on Power Armour was create similar issues and resist a quick flick.
Plus, if a light saber could stop bolt rounds, a saavy Astartes wluld just shoot the floor and rely on the frag effect to kill or mail the Jedi instead.
A Jedi Vs Space Marine would all hinge on what the Jedi can do with the force.
The force in the 2003 mini series? That Astartes is toast.
No Mass Effect? I can see the N7 commando being able to go toe to toe with a Marine. They would not be able to be as proficient in close combat but their weapons, shields, and Biotic powers would certainly grant an edge (or if tech, drones and tech power). I personally see Marines being equivalent to a very upgunned and uparmored Krogan. Extremely tough enemies for sure and deadly in close quarters but not insurmountable.
generalchaos34 wrote: No Mass Effect? I can see the N7 commando being able to go toe to toe with a Marine. They would not be able to be as proficient in close combat but their weapons, shields, and Biotic powers would certainly grant an edge (or if tech, drones and tech power). I personally see Marines being equivalent to a very upgunned and uparmored Krogan. Extremely tough enemies for sure and deadly in close quarters but not insurmountable.
I'm basing my thoughts on how effective a Marine is based on the YouTube series that shows them attacking a force on a traitor ship. Based on this interpretation, a Marine is larger, faster, and more lethal than a Krogan. As stated, the level of insanity available to a Marine by their weapons, armour, training, and sheer power is truly ridiculous. Most folks agree that even Master Chief would lose to a Space Marine, and Master Chief is way stronger, tougher, and armed than an N7 operative. I'd love for Mass Effect to be able to put up something against a Space Marine one-on-one, but they can only do so once you start bringing war engines against them.
As for star wars, i think any imperial force lead by grand admiral thrawn would kick the empire's ass consistently. He would work out their psychology, see it's glaring weaknesses and tie them in knots.
Ad for predators, i think the deadliest enemy a predator could face in 40k would be spacewolves. Predators are used to two kinds of enemies. Predatory animals and intelligent, technology using people.
Spacewolves are one of the few forces that likely combine the deadliest aspects of both pretty perfectly.
generalchaos34 wrote: No Mass Effect? I can see the N7 commando being able to go toe to toe with a Marine. They would not be able to be as proficient in close combat but their weapons, shields, and Biotic powers would certainly grant an edge (or if tech, drones and tech power). I personally see Marines being equivalent to a very upgunned and uparmored Krogan. Extremely tough enemies for sure and deadly in close quarters but not insurmountable.
I'm basing my thoughts on how effective a Marine is based on the YouTube series that shows them attacking a force on a traitor ship. Based on this interpretation, a Marine is larger, faster, and more lethal than a Krogan. As stated, the level of insanity available to a Marine by their weapons, armour, training, and sheer power is truly ridiculous. Most folks agree that even Master Chief would lose to a Space Marine, and Master Chief is way stronger, tougher, and armed than an N7 operative. I'd love for Mass Effect to be able to put up something against a Space Marine one-on-one, but they can only do so once you start bringing war engines against them.
Im not arguing their speed or strength of course! I'm more inline with not understanding how lethal the weapons in 40k or Mass effect really are. In either case we have them shooting at in universe items that we are not completely sure what they are made of. What is the strength of their armor and shields? For all we know an N7 operative could be immune to all conventional modern firearms and explosives and the Mass Effect weapons are insanely powerful. The same thing also applies to an astartes who is easily killed or is completely invulnerable depending on the situation. Whats to say a Black Widow sniper rifle wont be able to take a Marine's head off? Or whats to stop a biotic from floating a marine and just shooting him up. Also whats to stop an engineer from shutting down the tech systems of a marines armor and weapons? There's a lot of variables in there.
Out of armor, the marine is tougher, likely a bit stronger, and can spit acid.
In armor an Elemental is basically a Terminator with a Jump Pack, a missile launcher, a las cannon, a power claw and a heavy stubber, that can run 54kph.
kirotheavenger wrote: I think every on-screen fatality from a lightsaber has been a stab with the exception of Dooku. Although I imagine that's because it's a lot less violent than cleaving someone in twaine.
That's because in SW, cleaving someone in twain isn't actually fatal.
It has happened a few times. Maul and one of the evil Jedi from the Dark Forces/Jedi Academy video games, as I recall. They just gave him a hover platform in place of his hips.
There is the military augmentation that humanity goes through in the Dahak series. I can't remember what their armor is like, so forgive me (it's been years since I read Mutineer's Moon). Military Augmentation can make a human about as tough and strong as a Marine, though lacks the Black Carapace and multiple organs. They do have warp grenades which pretty much do what vortex grenades do, so it could be a close thing.
I see this a lot by those who watched the movie or tv shows but never read the original book.
In the book the Mobile Infantry utilize battle suits in combat that would make a Shas'O jealous. They are stronger, faster, and more well armed. They could beat an Astartes because of all that gear, but they also use peewee nukes like a Devastator uses their Missile Launchers.
Though, outside of those suits, yeah, they're pretty much Guardsmen or Scions, at best.
Out of armor, the marine is tougher, likely a bit stronger, and can spit acid.
In armor an Elemental is basically a Terminator with a Jump Pack, a missile launcher, a las cannon, a power claw and a heavy stubber, that can run 54kph.
An Elemental's run speed is 10.8 kph in their suit (normal for a human, actually), but they can jump at 32.4 kph. Their armor is ablative not deflective. Their laser weapon is closer to being in the Str 5 range with a 90m range, and the missile is weaker (though, they can fire 2 bursts of 2 shots with it). And if they are carrying a Heavy Stubber, they aren't carrying that laser weapon. Their other weapon would be like an auto-carbine. They would be carrying a Power Claw, though.
And as impressive as an Elemental is, a Marine is far better reinforced internally. At best, I would say the Elemental's armor doesn't provide much in the way of Save, but greatly increases the Wound capacity of the Elemental. Off hand, I'd probably put the Elemental suit in to being a high number (low effective) Save, but adds like 4 Wounds to the model. Roughly speaking, think a tough Ogryn who was armed like a Crisis Suit, and as skilled as a Marine.
It might actually be a close thing depending on how lucky that Marine is with their armor.
generalchaos34 wrote: Im not arguing their speed or strength of course! I'm more inline with not understanding how lethal the weapons in 40k or Mass effect really are. In either case we have them shooting at in universe items that we are not completely sure what they are made of. What is the strength of their armor and shields? For all we know an N7 operative could be immune to all conventional modern firearms and explosives and the Mass Effect weapons are insanely powerful. The same thing also applies to an astartes who is easily killed or is completely invulnerable depending on the situation. Whats to say a Black Widow sniper rifle wont be able to take a Marine's head off? Or whats to stop a biotic from floating a marine and just shooting him up. Also whats to stop an engineer from shutting down the tech systems of a marines armor and weapons? There's a lot of variables in there.
Yup, without doing tests, we couldn't come to any real answers. But since it's all made up, I wouldn't hold my breath . However, there are some things that we can use to approximate things! For one, Mass Effect, especially the first one, takes the time to show us the force that is applied from a biotic's attacks. "Throw" at the highest tier in ME1 is listed as providing 1250 Newtons of force against a target. This is like having 281 lbs. applied to you in a single G of gravity. It doesn't give the speed at which this "hits" you at, so I'm assuming that you suddenly feel the weight of a large man hit you. That's pretty devastating. But against a Marine, I don't think it's substantial enough to stop them. I believe I remember seeing that a Marine weighs about 1 ton. Just did some Google-fu... ( https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/5uuet0/how_much_does_a_space_marine_weigh/ ) and I find that they weigh about 1.37 tons while in power armour. So yeah, they're not being shifted by this attack, and this is the Master level of Throw, which deals more damage that a single shot from almost any weapon in ME1 outside a rocket or good sniper gun/shotgun with sufficient skill.
Body Armour in Mass Effect still provides protection from their weapons in that setting, as the weapons' ammo recoil is still listed as being the primary restriction on weapons (the projectiles are NOT being fired at relativistic velocities), and "shields" designed to slow kinetic projectiles, but basic objects in that setting do not have shields. So while a gun will be shot out of someone's hand by the Commander, we don't see Mass Effect weapons as often imparting substantially more impact to a target than conventional weaponry. This leads me to believe that standard N7 weaponry, while likely being more powerful and having greater armour penetration characteristics than today's firearms, are still largely comparable to standard firearms, which are just not sufficient at all to deal with a Space Marine.
EDIT: As for hacking Space Marine systems - I have no idea if the technologies are compatible enough to make hacking a thing that can even happen in 40k to a Space Marine's armour. It may just not have data inputs that are in any way exposed to the way that an Omni-tool can send/receive data packets.
kirotheavenger wrote: I think every on-screen fatality from a lightsaber has been a stab with the exception of Dooku. Although I imagine that's because it's a lot less violent than cleaving someone in twaine.
We also saw in the Phantom Menace that light sabers need to spend some effort working their way through a thick steel door.
I imagine the thermal shielding on Power Armour was create similar issues and resist a quick flick.
Plus, if a light saber could stop bolt rounds, a saavy Astartes wluld just shoot the floor and rely on the frag effect to kill or mail the Jedi instead.
A Jedi Vs Space Marine would all hinge on what the Jedi can do with the force.
The force in the 2003 mini series? That Astartes is toast.
It’s also worth noting that when Mando is duelling Gideon, we see the Beskar glow upon sustained contact with the Darksaber.
Now, caution on conclusion - we know the Darksaber was fashioned by the first Mandalorian Jedi. But, we don’t know (well I don’t know) for certain that beyond the blade colour and shape whether it’s any different to a light saber. But if it is (and we see it handily blocking Ahsoka’s lightsabers), then it would seem one of its properties is rapid heat dispersal - certainly the glow dull very quickly after contact is ended.
If that is the secret to its resilience (blasters and lightsabers being predominantly heat based), then it stands to reason that alloys and other materials could be made to replicate it. We know Power Armour contains ceramite, but not how effective that would be in this situation.
I think the main issue for anyone fighting an Astartes is sheer Black Knight Syndrome. You can cut his arm off all you like, but he’s still going to have at you. Going up against a foe with that sort of resilience has to be worrying.
Ah I'd forgotten about Maul's death.
That's the other problem with fiction Mail was supposed to be dead, but he turned out to be such a popular character they waved their magic stick to bring him back. They did the same for Boba Fett.
We get a reasonable impression oh how deadly Mass Effect weapons are, as they're depicted hitting unarmoured humans on numerous occasions and they're not dissimilar to modern bullets.
Although that's a video game, and neither bolters nor Astartes come anywhere close to their in-lore performance in any game so maybe that's not accurate.
The answer to who would win between an Astartes and the doom guy or the halo guy or the space jedi or the predator is just whether the story is being written by someone who is a fanboy of the space marine or a fanboy of the other thing. They'll imagine themselves in the shoes of whichever they're the fan of, and they'll jerk themselves raw while imagining how awesomely their thing will dispatch the thing that other people who are fans of the wrong thing like.
People are already doing it, in this thread, immediately, because that's all these discussions ever are.
Its like that hilariously stupid show that they had on the """"""""""""""""""""""""""History""""""""""""""""""""" channel called 'THE ULTIMATE WARROR" or something, where a couple of amazing early oughts dudebros use fake computer stuff to 'scientifically prove' who would win in a fight between two combatants like ninjas pirates KGB agents samurai etc and then they pay hilariously overacting larpers to re-enact what they imagine the fight would go like. There is no aspect of that show that isn't absolute peak cringe content.
Hit the nail on the head with that one. Also props on recognizing that the "History" channel is a bit of a joke at times. But really I think we can all agree that the real victor of any battle between sci-fi franchises would be the entire Warrick clan from the TV show Ewoks. (JK, Those of you who know what I'm talking about feel free to vomit now)
Reminds me of an old adage... youth and enthusiasm always loses to old age and treachery.
For what it's worth, bear in mind that space marines can live for 1000's of years. Not even master yoda lived that long. Which is to say that the average space marines likely has vastly more actual combat experience than anything else we're talking about. They are fanatic's and train around the clock. And they are freaking huge. Quantity is a quality of all of its own. There is lot of marine meat crammed into a single suit of armor.
Predators? I think they loose pretty easily - the marines have all kinds of fancy imaging that would help detect it in advance. Marine probably has faster reflexes.
Aliens? Considering droves of these were mowed down by worse-than-guard UMC marines I don't think it would stand a chance in hell against a marine.
The terminator - I don't think the it's gun is strong enough to do much to the marine, and the marine definitely has better reflexes. A few direct bolter hits followed up by just ripping the things head off would do the trick.
Jedi - I think this starts to get a bit more interesting, but ultimately I'm not sure it's an applicable comparison. The Jedi essentially have psychic powers, so you'd probably need to be comparing a jedi to a librarian (I think the average jedi would lose that quite resoundingly). A marine vs a normal jedi (assuming they can't magically crush the marine in our story) is probably a close fight. Give the marine a power sword (and assume it can stop a lightsaber) and I think it's a no brainer marine win. But without the power sword, this is where I think the 1000's of years of martial training would pay off in landing a blow first (marine's favor). I'm also not convinced that a light saber could be used to stop a bolter round without the bolter round exploding. Jedi don't typically wear armor so it's going to be a rough day if that happens.
Once we start talking about super heroes and the like (wolverine, iron man, etc.) I think we've probably surpassed the average marine by a decent margin. But step the marine up to an HQ-level unit with some relic-level wargear, re-rolls on invulnerable armor saves and there might be a serious fight to be had.
generalchaos34 wrote: No Mass Effect? I can see the N7 commando being able to go toe to toe with a Marine. They would not be able to be as proficient in close combat but their weapons, shields, and Biotic powers would certainly grant an edge (or if tech, drones and tech power). I personally see Marines being equivalent to a very upgunned and uparmored Krogan. Extremely tough enemies for sure and deadly in close quarters but not insurmountable.
Upgunned? The bolter is hilariously weak compared to just about any ME universe weapon. It's essentially a 0.76mm grenade with rocket engine. Rockets being one of the slowest methods of sending projectiles at a short range compared to even modern gun propellant.
It's slow, it's got low rate of fire (or else the previous round explodes the next one due to exhaust) and it requires direct hit to explode (mass reactive shell) meaning it can't even be used for area saturation like IRL grenade launchers. It's a cumbersome RPG-7 essentially. You can, theoretically, sidestep a rocket much easier than a rifle round, and if your sci-fi includes any sort of active defenses, they'll swat the thing with ease. Marines are like SW stormtroopers- armed for terror duty, but if it fails, they must rely on the real guns (plasma/melta/HB/lascannon) to do the job.
Bolters are dual propulsion - it's thrown out the barrel by a propellant exactly like a normal bullet (although at low pressure to minimise recoil), then the rocket motor kicks in.
They're more like a Javelin or a Rocket Assisted Projectile artillery uses than an RPG-7.
They're also fairly rapid fire, comparable to a regular assault rifle.
I also assume you meant 0.75", or ~19mm, which is definitely going to leave a mark considering it'll penetrate armour first.
i did confuse my inches and my metrics, sorry about that. But yes, it's thrown out by a small charge to let it clear the barrel before igniting it's engine, that doesn't impart any velocity worth mentioning, meaning all the actual "speed" comes from the tiny rocket it packs, as i recall the 3rd ed bolter "manual". For that same reason there's no way they've got higher rof than a normal rifle firing in full-auto, just physically wouldn't work given the slow projectile speed.
Anyway, 5,56mm round has roughly 900m/s velocity, ME mass-accelerator weapons like the assault rifle fire rounds at (if I recall correctly, it;s been a while) about 5000 m/s. That's going to punch through a marine and his five buddies behind him and possibly cook the flesh it passes through. The shields are the only reason anyone lives through ME firefight.
Cronch wrote: i did confuse my inches and my metrics, sorry about that. But yes, it's thrown out by a small charge to let it clear the barrel before igniting it's engine, that doesn't impart any velocity worth mentioning, meaning all the actual "speed" comes from the tiny rocket it packs, as i recall the 3rd ed bolter "manual". For that same reason there's no way they've got higher rof than a normal rifle firing in full-auto, just physically wouldn't work given the slow projectile speed.
Funny because that's not what we see in the cutscenes in any DoW game or the Space Marine movie. Bolter rounds being slow would also completely invalidate them having armor-piercing tips which we know they have.
If you want to dunk on the bolter you should try looking at what they do rather than the technology behind them.
Anyway, 5,56mm round has roughly 900m/s velocity, ME mass-accelerator weapons like the assault rifle fire rounds at (if I recall correctly, it;s been a while) about 5000 m/s. That's going to punch through a marine and his five buddies behind him and possibly cook the flesh it passes through. The shields are the only reason anyone lives through ME firefight.
As for ME weapons sending anything that fast, where do we see actual evidence of that? In both cutscenes and gameplay, we don't see or hear the kinds of effects a hypersonic bullet would have, not on the terrain, the air, or their targets. There's also the problem of the energy densities required to accelerate a bullet to those speeds, the issues with how quickly the bullet would bleed off the speed due to atmospheric drag. If ME actually had hypersonic small arms they would be blinding and deafening to the user, have ludicrous power requirements, and dump most of their energy into the air in front of the muzzle.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: They are all in trouble against Batman if he has his utility belt.
Especially since Batman will rip the power source out of the marine, immobilizing him in his own armor (a trick a knowledgeable jedi might pull).
Also, I agree a Librarian would probably munch a Jedi in a mind battle, but a common marine likely wouldn't be able to be mind controlled by most jedi.
And unfortunately, as much as I love xenomorphs, marines would mulch them with little effort - though the acid blood might become problematic. On the other hand, if a predator could keep his cloak up, he'd probably waste the marine from range (but unlikely in melee) - unless the marine had an auspice device because he suspected the predator to be nearby.
Out of all these franchises, I think the one that would fare the worst is Star Trek. Short of maybe the Hirogen, a marine would whup anything short of a Q-like entity in that universe.
Cronch wrote: ME handwaves literally everything with Eeezo. FTL, shields etc, throw eezo at it and it's done.
That doesn't actually work and even if Eeezo could negate every downside I brought we'd still expect to see massive overpenetration of objects hit by stray bullets in firefights, seeing as we don't see this we can safely say that they don't work the way you claim they do.
Also friendly reminder, DoW, cool as it is, is not canon, just like GW's mobile app games aren't canon.
Blndmage wrote: The Borg, not the mess that was Voyager, but Next Generation Borg.
Honestly, Borg vs Necron would be amazing
You mean the shambling robo-zombies which can die to bullets and who are only threatening by being very specifically good against phasers? I'm pretty sure in boots on the ground action they can't do much and in space combat, they're not going to like lances, macro batteries, and missiles let alone the other nastier stuff.
Blndmage wrote: The Borg, not the mess that was Voyager, but Next Generation Borg.
Honestly, Borg vs Necron would be amazing
You mean the shambling robo-zombies which can die to bullets and who are only threatening by being very specifically good against phasers? I'm pretty sure in boots on the ground action they can't do much and in space combat, they're not going to like lances, macro batteries, and missiles let alone the other nastier stuff.
At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.
Charistoph wrote: At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.
Saying that Borg can adapt to anything is a no-limits fallacy, even more so when we've seen that there are things they cannot adapt against. As for that melee weakness, we see drones go down to poorly thrown punches and walk past people in plain sight like 3 feet away from them, you think Marines aren't going to take advantage of that kind of stupidity?
While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.
Blndmage wrote: The Borg, not the mess that was Voyager, but Next Generation Borg.
Honestly, Borg vs Necron would be amazing
You mean the shambling robo-zombies which can die to bullets and who are only threatening by being very specifically good against phasers? I'm pretty sure in boots on the ground action they can't do much and in space combat, they're not going to like lances, macro batteries, and missiles let alone the other nastier stuff.
Well, two Borg died to bullets. I've always assumed a third one would have adapted, otherwize they would have replicated Tommy Guns for everyone... .
Da Boss wrote: A Mind controlled Drone from the Culture would just go through the space marine at relativistic speeds before the Marine even had time to react.
This is my favourite comparison in the thread. Although "Mind-controlled" is unnecessarily mean to the Marine. Any SC drone (or just a knife missile) would smoosh a marine without needing help. Hell, a civilian drone whose hobby was making menhirs using some uncommonly strong effectors it got from an old ship pal could probably do it.
kirotheavenger wrote: In some books marines can move in unpowered armour, even relatively easily. So whether or not that would disable the marine is up for debate.
Is this in reply to me?
Cutting power to the armour would be like a D-tier tactic in that confrontation, when options like taking control of the armour or just zapping the Marine's brain exist.
Charistoph wrote: At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.
Saying that Borg can adapt to anything is a no-limits fallacy, even more so when we've seen that there are things they cannot adapt against. As for that melee weakness, we see drones go down to poorly thrown punches and walk past people in plain sight like 3 feet away from them, you think Marines aren't going to take advantage of that kind of stupidity?
Well I didn't say they can adapt to anything (I played Star Trek Elite Force with the Q-Mod), I was just saying that they tend to fold until they adapt. They don't always adapt, melee being a demonstrable point of error on their part.
And yeah, Marines would do it quite regularly. Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars are more likely to notice this issue sooner than others.
TangoTwoBravo wrote:While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.
Especially if his shirt gets torn or completely ripped off.
Predator: a hunter as we know them would likely only win if he is cunning enough to hide without relying on his camo and if he is able to hit first with his plasma caster. 40K marines hate plasma. We don't know much about predators, we don't know if they have an army or some kind of defence force. If they do have soldiers, they probably got some armor and better weapons. The horrible end of 'The Predator' indicated they can make quite some useful armor, which could pose a serious threat to a marine, especially if they use those genetically upgraded predators.
Xenomorph: Only dangerous in groups to anything but unarmed humans. 1:1 againt a 40k marine they would have to be very lucky to do damage at all.
Arachnid: If they are not the Megarachnids from Murder, a single arachnid from SST should be no problem for a marine.
Star Trek Infantry (Fed, Klingons, Romulans etc.): They are all unarmored, but they have powerful energy weapons disintegrating matter, which likely would destroy a 40k marine, so they have a chance but only if they hit first.
Culture drone (Banks' culture series): the 40k marine stands no chance, it will shrugg off the bolter rounds with a field. Idirans or Affront soldiers might be better matches for a 40k marine, but given they probably sometimes fought the culture in infantry fights, they still might be too op for the marine.
FORCE marine (Hyperion by Simmons) in combat armor: would shredd the 40k marine given the description of the fight of Kassad vs. Moneta or the Shrike. Ousters would also be too much for the 40k marine given they gave FORCE a hard time on Bressia. Someone with a liquid metal suit would be even more op and a Shrike would certainly be able to decorate a tree with colorful 40k Space marines (and it would look dope).
Colonial Defense Forces soldier from 'Old Man's War' (Scalzi) might be a fair match for a 40k Space marine. As would some aliens from the series.
Starship Troopers mobile infantry (book, NOT movie) might also be at the level of a 40k Space marine.
One on one? I’d go for a Bolo from Laumers’ books (and the Ogre game). Self aware super tank that makes a Baneblade look like a baby carriage. Cheating, of course, but the OP should probably specify an infantry opponent for the Marine :-)
Moriarty wrote: One on one? I’d go for a Bolo from Laumers’ books (and the Ogre game). Self aware super tank that makes a Baneblade look like a baby carriage. Cheating, of course, but the OP should probably specify an infantry opponent for the Marine :-)
Anything designated “continental siege units” we should probably be pairing up against titans.
That said, the Imperium’s best chance against Bolo/Ogre level targets is probably a space marine kill team with demo charges. They are both mega tanks designed for apocalyptic nuclear slugfests. They are designed to take multiple nuke hits, keep fighting, and give as good as they take. That said, they do have weak points, and components can be damaged. Some melta bombs or votex grenades might be just the right tool for the job. Getting past all the infinite repeaters/AP guns is no easy task, but this kind of surgical strike is the marines’s forte.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.
I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.
....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.
I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.
....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.
I love that a cheap special effect has basically turned into them having ridiculously powerful particle beam weapons. I guess its a good thing that the Federation is peaceful and Klingons are close combat weirdos because most fights would just be 10 seconds long followed by each side breaking out the dustpan and broom to clean up. I can totally see a homefield advantage crew of Star Trek crew members making some bizarre science based trap to freeze the marine, then they soliloquy around him for a minute about their superior way of life, then maybe after the make a body count of red shirts murdered by the marine let him go, wherein he murders MORE crew members until someone gets the bright idea to shoot him in the face with their ungodly powerful TV remotes.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.
....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.
You mean the same red beams that didn't do that to crates, rocks, and other mundane objects that have no reason to be hardened against them and wielded by people reluctant to take them off of their stun setting even while their ship is being boarded by hostile forces. I'm less than worried for our boys in power armor.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.
I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.
....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.
I love that a cheap special effect has basically turned into them having ridiculously powerful particle beam weapons. I guess its a good thing that the Federation is peaceful and Klingons are close combat weirdos because most fights would just be 10 seconds long followed by each side breaking out the dustpan and broom to clean up. I can totally see a homefield advantage crew of Star Trek crew members making some bizarre science based trap to freeze the marine, then they soliloquy around him for a minute about their superior way of life, then maybe after the make a body count of red shirts murdered by the marine let him go, wherein he murders MORE crew members until someone gets the bright idea to shoot him in the face with their ungodly powerful TV remotes.
Yep. A lot of science fiction universes have gone the vastly more realistic route of having technology that reduces warfare to the point of impractical ridiculousness. You know, like we did in approximately 1914.
We've been doing wars on the battlespace of the planet earth for a few thousand years, and we've already constructed weapons that are fully capable of utterly obliterating the entire battlespace and everybody on it, and all the major geopolitical players have them. Basic antipersonnel weaponry being essentially totally unblockable, unavoidable, instantaneous matter disintegrators like in star trek makes vastly more sense than basic antipersonnel weaponry being a flashier but demonstrably less effective version of the weaponry we have right now, like in 40k or star wars.
The only context in which space marines, titans, and honestly most aspects of the imperial war machine make any sense is that it's a society that's progressed beyond all reason and they're trying to use things originally designed to just be propaganda tools in actual warfare and they've just forgotten the original reason for their existence, like an alternate universe version of the world where germany won WW2, conquered and amassed all the resources of the planet earth, got so high on their own propaganda that they believed gak like King Tigers and V-2 rockets were actually practical useful weapons and then tried to fight an army of space invaders using just the doofy propagandistic superweapons. Expending the UNIMAGINABLY vast resources necessary to turn the squishy useless meatsack that is a human body into something approaching the effectiveness of one of the admech's "lobotomized brain in a robot" cyborgs is just so wasteful that 'the emperor was actually a delusional narcissist idiot' is the only logical explanation for space marines.
The problem is, there are a plethora of factions in 40k that SHOULD be using actual practical weapons that make actual sense, but aren't, like the craftworld eldar, genestealer cultists, tyranids and tau. There are multiple factions in 40k that would never ever under any realistic circumstances use a weapon that appears on a battlefield - the death guard and nids would just be fighting with basically bioweaponry the size of microbes. And unless Tau had some sort of idiot code of honor requiring them to fight at completely suicidal ranges they'd just be using at least modern-era computer targeters and fighting from 600 board-lengths away.
the_scotsman wrote: I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.
....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.
You mean the same red beams that didn't do that to crates, rocks, and other mundane objects that have no reason to be hardened against them and wielded by people reluctant to take them off of their stun setting even while their ship is being boarded by hostile forces. I'm less than worried for our boys in power armor.
If the phaser just shot through literally everything all the time, every time you used one you'd create a catastrophic hull breach. Obviously, because they are ship to ship weapons as well, there are settings you can tune a phaser to where it will destroy inorganic materials, they're just not the default for standard handheld phasers because you don't want them to punch holes in your ship or puncture holes in the crust of a planet accidentally when you miss your target.
We have normal guardsmen killing both loyalist and traitor marines en masse in proper 40k fluff.
A space marine could and would absolutely get killed by things like Jedi. Heck, I saw someone said that master chief would not be able to go toe to toe with a normal space marine, that shows the ignorance in Halo fluff.
the_scotsman wrote: If the phaser just shot through literally everything all the time, every time you used one you'd create a catastrophic hull breach. Obviously, because they are ship to ship weapons as well, there are settings you can tune a phaser to where it will destroy inorganic materials, they're just not the default for standard handheld phasers because you don't want them to punch holes in your ship or puncture holes in the crust of a planet accidentally when you miss your target.
If those are standard settings explain why it takes half an episode and a lot of, "Sir, I can try it but I'm not sure it'll work.", before phasers can be made to work on inorganic material.
Galas wrote: A space marine could and would absolutely get killed by things like Jedi. Heck, I saw someone said that master chief would not be able to go toe to toe with a normal space marine, that shows the ignorance in Halo fluff.
Yet in cannon - Halo cannon is that MC is exactly as tough as he is on a game's legendary mode - there are pistols that can kill him in a few shots and rifles that can do it in one. Given that we know the specifications for those weapons we can say that MC is far, far less durable than a Space Marine and that bolter fire would kill him as quickly as a stuck plasma grenade.
Galas wrote: We have normal guardsmen killing both loyalist and traitor marines en masse in proper 40k fluff.
A space marine could and would absolutely get killed by things like Jedi. Heck, I saw someone said that master chief would not be able to go toe to toe with a normal space marine, that shows the ignorance in Halo fluff.
In hand to hand more than likely. Even with a plasma sword a Marine is faster and tougher than your average Halo enemy. Like if a Brute had Hunter armor and moved like a Jackal. I think the reasoning is that his weapons aren't exactly all that advanced on first appearance. Maybe with some Covenant plasma weapons for sure he would be wrecking some Marines. I do wonder about the strength of his shield systems to be able to stop something like a bolter round.
Also as a side note I always see eldar plasma grenades the same as covenant plasma grenades
How are Covenant Energy Swords or Plasma weaponry measurably less powerfull than plasma and energy weapons from 40k? Or their energy shields and armors worse than Eldar or Tau weaponry?
Master Chief kills all the time and fights agaisnt stuff that isn't that different from many races than in 40k kill marines without a problem.
Are you telling me an ork boy with a choppa or a guardsmen with a overcharged lasgun can kill a marine and Master Chief or an Covenant Elite with a energy sword cannot because marines are just too fastz and str0nk? Lets say I respectfully disagree.
Galas wrote: How are Covenant Energy Swords or Plasma weaponry measurably less powerfull than plasma and energy weapons from 40k? Or their energy shields and armors worse than Eldar or Tau weaponry?
Master Chief kills all the time and fights agaisnt stuff that isn't that different from many races than in 40k kill marines without a problem.
Are you telling me an ork boy with a choppa or a guardsmen with a overcharged lasgun can kill a marine and Master Chief or an Covenant Elite with a energy sword cannot because marines are just too fastz and str0nk? Lets say I respectfully disagree.
Guardsmen with overcharged lasguns never kill marines the existence of militarum tempestus with hotshot lasguns that are explicitly good at getting through power armor is just imaginary.
Galas wrote: A bolter shot would not in a millon years kill Master Chief with the energy shield of the armor on.
Yet the Special Applications Rifle, Caliber 14.5 mm, SRS99 does just that and it only carries 29,850 J (22,020 ft⋅lbf) of energy. The explosive energy in a bolter round is going to pack more than that. Even a lasgun will kill him in only a couple of shots as shown by this explaination:
Connor MacLeod wrote:fist sized" hole in a humanoid body implies at least around 10-12 cm diameter area cauterized (the hole plus some of the surrounding tissue). "Through" the body implies it passes through roughly 20-25 cm or so of torso (depending on physique.) We know its cauterized due to the "lack of blood" and the "smoking hole".
Assuming a cylindrical hole given the dimensions above, the amount of tissue affected would be around 1.5-2.8 kg, including the cauterization of the tissues around the hole.
Conservative estimates should put tissue temp at a minimum of 200C, the water content in the body should be raised to a temp of 173C.
Assuming tissue temps reach 300-400 C at least, this corresponds to the water content in the body (factoring in the differences in specific heat) of between 256-340 C. The temp of a human body is roughly 37 degrees C. Given that, this means that tissue temp must be raised by at least 163 degrees, the body water content by 136 degrees (200 C cauterization.) At 300-400C, the increase is 263 and 219 C (300 C cauterization) and 363 and 303 C (400 C cauterization)
Given the specific heats above, this translates to an energy input of:
- 571 kilojoules per kg at 200 C cauterization
- 921 kilojoules per kg at 300 C cauterization
- 1.271 megajoules per kg at 400 C cauterization.
This works out to a "per shot" las-bolt range of at least 860 kilojoules to 1.9 megatjoules at least (1.5 kg) to 1.6-3.55 megajoules per shot (2.8 kg)
AS a side note, another enemy evidently uses a las-weapon to begin melting the stone Tarok was hiding behind. It looks more like a sustained event, and its not easy to get an EXACT size on the rock (or properties), but even if it were a fairly small rock (say half a foot in diameter) it would weigh at least a few kg. Assuming silicon like properties it could easily take 5-6 megajoules to melt, and the whole event could be no more than a couple seconds, providing a secondary confirmation of the magnitude of the firepower.
Norade wrote:A lasgun shot produces at least 571 kilojoules worth of energy, by comparison a modern RGD-5 hand grenade filled with 110g of TNT produces only 506 kilojoules of energy. Master Chief can be killed by a pair of grenades and while the grenades in Halo are slightly more powerful having a confirmed kill ratio of 5m instead of only 3m for the RGD-5 that isn't a huge increase. Even assuming that ComL, the filler in a Halo grenade is 50% more powerful than the explosive used to fill modern grenades and knowing that Halo grenades use 190 grams versus 110 grams for the RGD-5 we only get an energy of 1,310 kilojoules. That means that it should take roughly three or four lasgun shots to kill MC and that is what we see.
Galas wrote: How are Covenant Energy Swords or Plasma weaponry measurably less powerfull than plasma and energy weapons from 40k? Or their energy shields and armors worse than Eldar or Tau weaponry?
Because those shields drop to less than a magazine of assault rifle rounds and we have modern armor than can take more unshielded hits than the super special Mewmeow armor MC wears can. Plus, Halo energy weapons are less powerful than 40k weapons and we can use both gameplay, cutscenes, and novels to prove that.
So how by those calculations you have a ton of 40k fiction where lasgun shots hit humans, cultists and ork boyz and they suffer non lethal damage?
I mean. I have not done any kind of scientific calculations , as flawed as those are when working based in like, a ton of assumptions, so my reasoning holds much less water but this feels a ton like... chosing the worst examples of one canon and the most "powerfull" ones of 40k canon to justify it.
The reality is that 40K never tried to have any form of physical realism so they just do cool stuff and shots black holes at each other.
I'll say again. If space marine power armour can protect them from a ton of lasgun fire but an ork boy hitting it with a choppa can kill it on a single strike are you telling me by those calculations each time an Ork Boy slap something it is more powerfull than a real life high explosive hand grenade?
Galas wrote: So how by those calculations you have a ton of 40k fiction where lasgun shots hit humans, cultists and ork boyz and they suffer non lethal damage?
The same way we have IRL instances of people getting half their brain blown out of their head and surviving while other people die from getting hit with a BB gun. Sometimes weird stuff happens and over the sheer number of battles and wounds in 40k there's bound to be a lot of weird stuff happening every day.
Galas wrote: So how by those calculations you have a ton of 40k fiction where lasgun shots hit humans, cultists and ork boyz and they suffer non lethal damage?
I mean. I have not done any kind of scientific calculations , as flawed as those are when working based in like, a ton of assumptions, so my reasoning holds much less water but this feels a ton like... chosing the worst examples of one canon and the most "powerfull" ones of 40k canon to justify it.
Halo cannon is officially that the Legendary difficulty of the game shows how durable MC is. The fluff shows what kinds of weapons he uses and we can test those weapons against him in-game on the cannon difficulty and figure out exactly how durable he is. There is nothing to cherry-pick from actual data and known ammunition types used by real-life militaries.
Yet in cannon - Halo cannon is that MC is exactly as tough as he is on a game's legendary mode - there are pistols that can kill him in a few shots and rifles that can do it in one. Given that we know the specifications for those weapons we can say that MC is far, far less durable than a Space Marine and that bolter fire would kill him as quickly as a stuck plasma grenade.
By the same token, we have gobs of established 40k fluff of Space Marines being killed by such mundane things as teeth, claws, unpowered blades wielded by human-strength level opponents, and common infantry mortars.
None of these portrayals in any IP are particularly consistent, and vary wildly by author and era.
Galas wrote: I'll say again. If space marine power armour can protect them from a ton of lasgun fire but an ork boy hitting it with a choppa can kill it on a single strike are you telling me by those calculations each time an Ork Boy slap something it is more powerfull than a real life high explosive hand grenade?
No, but it does mean they hit hard enough to go through a weak point in Marine armor and have enough skill (or simply rain down enough blows) to hit said weak points. Plus something something WAAAGH energy, something something.
Charistoph wrote: At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.
Saying that Borg can adapt to anything is a no-limits fallacy, even more so when we've seen that there are things they cannot adapt against. As for that melee weakness, we see drones go down to poorly thrown punches and walk past people in plain sight like 3 feet away from them, you think Marines aren't going to take advantage of that kind of stupidity?
Well I didn't say they can adapt to anything (I played Star Trek Elite Force with the Q-Mod), I was just saying that they tend to fold until they adapt. They don't always adapt, melee being a demonstrable point of error on their part.
And yeah, Marines would do it quite regularly. Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars are more likely to notice this issue sooner than others.
TangoTwoBravo wrote:While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.
Especially if his shirt gets torn or completely ripped off.
In the interest of a “fair fight” I think we reserve the ripped shirt for a duel with a Primarch. Come to think of it, maybe Kirk is the Emperor? It all fits now...
Vaktathi wrote: By the same token, we have gobs of established 40k fluff of Space Marines being killed by such mundane things as teeth, claws, unpowered blades wielded by human-strength level opponents, and common infantry mortars.
Aren't most of these instances where the marine is alone, already wounded, and vastly outnumbered? If you get enough people you can probably get somebody in close enough to pull off something like a helmet and get to the marine's throat. Plus for every one of these instances, there's an instance of a marine getting the full weight of a Dreadnought stepping on his armor and that not killing them. So we need to average that out.
For MC there is an exact measure of his toughness so we use that.
I mean we also have the Space Marine game to compare the durability of a SPACE MARINE CAPTAIN (they have +++ resilience for plot armour so a tactical marine should probably be 1/3 of how durable Tythus was in the game hardest difficulty).
And in that difficulty even fething gretching wrecked me.
Galas wrote: How is Legendary canon when "Heroic is the way Halo was meant to be played" is in all the games?
I'm not saying you are wrong, I just can't find where they said Legendary is the canon.
My recall may be off on this one, I thought I remembered that Legendary was once considered canon but when I looked it seems like Heroic is.
That doesn't change that much though, MC can still die to normal modern rifle fire and military sidearms.
Galas wrote: I mean we also have the Space Marine game to compare the durability of a SPACE MARINE CAPTAIN (they have +++ resilience for plot armour so a tactical marine should probably be 1/3 of how durable Tythus was in the game hardest difficulty).
And in that difficulty even fething gretching wrecked me.
I'm pretty sure none of the 3rd party games are canon. Canon is the books, codices, and probably the movie.
Galas wrote: So how by those calculations you have a ton of 40k fiction where lasgun shots hit humans, cultists and ork boyz and they suffer non lethal damage?
I mean. I have not done any kind of scientific calculations , as flawed as those are when working based in like, a ton of assumptions, so my reasoning holds much less water but this feels a ton like... chosing the worst examples of one canon and the most "powerfull" ones of 40k canon to justify it.
The reality is that 40K never tried to have any form of physical realism so they just do cool stuff and shots black holes at each other.
I'll say again. If space marine power armour can protect them from a ton of lasgun fire but an ork boy hitting it with a choppa can kill it on a single strike are you telling me by those calculations each time an Ork Boy slap something it is more powerfull than a real life high explosive hand grenade?
I think Dan Abnett books do a good job of showing the scale of power in the 40k universe. Autoguns are just as lethal as any old handgun against people not in full carapace and a lasgun is fully capable of blowing off a limb (ie Eisenhorn's hand) when struck. He also points out that a lasgun will only hurt a marine if it hits some of the squishier parts like the joints. Plus bolters turn people into piles of gore and chainswords cut through just about anything. He seems to be more consistent than most
Slowroll wrote: I think the Space Marine would be able to totally own WALL-E, Johnny 5, and probably Chappie.
The fully equipped S.A.I.N.T. robots were each supposed to be carrying a 25 megaton nuke to go along with their anti-tank laser, so that one might be a draw :p
Vaktathi wrote: By the same token, we have gobs of established 40k fluff of Space Marines being killed by such mundane things as teeth, claws, unpowered blades wielded by human-strength level opponents, and common infantry mortars.
Aren't most of these instances where the marine is alone, already wounded, and vastly outnumbered? If you get enough people you can probably get somebody in close enough to pull off something like a helmet and get to the marine's throat. Plus for every one of these instances, there's an instance of a marine getting the full weight of a Dreadnought stepping on his armor and that not killing them. So we need to average that out.
For MC there is an exact measure of his toughness so we use that.
They're not all alone/wounded/vastly outnumbered by any means. Storm of Iron has an ancient Heresy era veteran Iron Warriors Chaos Space Marine siege engineer get taken out by a Guard mortar just...kinda randomly. We've got the Ultramarines movie where dozens of Chaos Space Marines are effortlessly mown down by simple bolter fire. We've also got CSM's being killed by jungle tribal warriors in Gaunts Ghosts books.
The lore is just wildly inconsistent. We have books where a squad of Space Marines take out literally thousands of Dark Eldar without a single casualty in one night of urban combat (somehow without running out of ammo), and we have Wyches killing armored marines with unpowered blades in other fluff. We have Marines being crushed by tank treads in some fluff, and others where they survive being stepped on by Titans.
Dan Abnett is actually particularly bad in this regard, with some of the most extreme examples at both ends coming from his writing.
Marines have also changed and morphed over time in game terms, quite radically so. At the game's inception, 6 lasgun shots from basic Guardsmen would kill a basic Tactical Marine, who was T3 W1 and only got a 5+sv against such a weapon, in 9th edition you'd need 36 such shots to kill the same basic T4 W2 3+sv Tactical Marine.
Vaktathi wrote: They're not all alone/wounded/vastly outnumbered by any means. Storm of Iron has an ancient Heresy era veteran Iron Warriors Chaos Space Marine siege engineer get taken out by a Guard mortar just...kinda randomly.
How is that the same as the examples given above for unaugmented humans killing a marine in melee? Besides, that mortar is more powerful than a frag grenade and it doesn't seem odd that those kill marines.
We've got the Ultramarines movie where dozens of Chaos Space Marines are effortlessly mown down by simple bolter fire. We've also got CSM's being killed by jungle tribal warriors in Gaunts Ghosts books.
Okay... What are you trying to say here? Are marines just uncalculable or are you just against the idea of analyzing fiction?
We have Marines being crushed by tank treads in some fluff, and others where they survive being stepped on by Titans.
We have examples of unaugmented humans surviving fun stuff like literal steamrollers and falling out of airplanes at 40,000 feet, does that mean we're as tough as MC or a marine?
Flipsiders wrote: Doesn't Master Chief have bizarre "luck powers" which prevent him from ever losing anything? This seems like an odd fight to focus on.
Well he does fly pretty good for a brick, and can survive reentry without a drop pod.
Basically yes. Their variation between stories, authors, and over time, especially in conjunction with their ever-evolving game stats (particularly relative to most other units in the game that haven't changed so much), basically means they're whatever someone wants them to be. There's more than enough lore, art, cinematics, game stats, etc to support pretty much any version people want to hold on equal footing with any other.
If one's going to compare a Space Marine to Master Chief for instance, doing it as "Space Marines as presented in X book to MC in Y game" is probably a more functional way of doing that, otherwise it's just too contradictory and convoluted to make any meaningful comparison.
40k fluff is so inconsistent though.
In literally the same book, one lasgun shot blows a guy's arm off, another catches someone in the throat and they survive.
The lore is so stupendously vast and inconsistent it's just impossible to pin down the capabilities of 40k.
Flipsiders wrote:Doesn't Master Chief have bizarre "luck powers" which prevent him from ever losing anything? This seems like an odd fight to focus on.
He's Parker Lewis & Batman rolled in to one...
Parker Lewis never loses
Batman always wins
So what would MC's stat line be? His armor is just not as good as normal Astartes armor...but since Sororitas armor is also a 3+ and I don't think anyone thinks their PA is as good as Astartes armor, we can probably say Mjolnir armor is 3+
As for his physical stats... Spartans are better than normal humans but are they as good as Astartes on the tabletop? In the lore, an Astartes would wreck a Spartan in the lore, but on the tabletop...they are pretty much the same.
So, IMO, A Spartan II would use the same stat line as an Astartes, but has worse weapons basic weapons (autogun vs boltgun).
For the forcefield, I would say it is equal to either an Iron Halo or Rosarius (4+ Invul). If there were more granularity, you could say that Mjolnir would be the bottom of the 3+ armor, while Astartes armor would be the top of the 3+, there just isn't enough difference on the tabletop.
The only thing that Spartans MAY have over Astartes is a higher Ld score. They may start at 8, and MC would have a 9?
Well, Master Chief John Spartan 117 would definitely classify as a Special Character, so some special leeway would apply to his status, and his determination definitely puts out a Ld 10 vibe.
The Save is kind of a challenge because we never experience a Spartan II in combat without their armor. Still as a deflection method it seems rather... poor. Really, the only non-MMORPG that provided a deflection mechanic for shields or armor (that I can think of) comes from a very old, almost hard sci-fi game called Independence War.
The forcefield is hard to say. It acts as a reliable source of rechargable Wounds, and I don't think that people really would want to bring in a much better Living Metal rule in to play that restored the majority of the Chief's Wounds.
Charistoph wrote: Well, Master Chief John Spartan 117 would definitely classify as a Special Character, so some special leeway would apply to his status, and his determination definitely puts out a Ld 10 vibe.
The Save is kind of a challenge because we never experience a Spartan II in combat without their armor. Still as a deflection method it seems rather... poor. Really, the only non-MMORPG that provided a deflection mechanic for shields or armor (that I can think of) comes from a very old, almost hard sci-fi game called Independence War.
The forcefield is hard to say. It acts as a reliable source of rechargable Wounds, and I don't think that people really would want to bring in a much better Living Metal rule in to play that restored the majority of the Chief's Wounds.
He could act like an Apothecary that ups his own wounds?
Hellebore wrote: Something that I think people aren't crediting re xenomorphs is that the marines killing them aren't packing autoguns.
To quote the film "10 millimeter explosive-tip caseless. Standard light armor piercing round"
They fire 10mm/0.4 cal explosive tipped rounds and their magazines had a 99 round capacity.
So I don't think saying xenomorphs are crappy because they were killed by guardsmen is accurate.
Still, if comparing them to Astartes who basically have a much larger round, are more accurate, and more disciplined, a Deathwatch team could handle the situation a little better than 10 Colonial Marines with a few turrets.
I think the best a single xenomorph could expect is taking down a Marine with it as its blood sprayed all across it. Even the Colonial Marines could have handled that. But a xenomorph hive with a queen and a small colony of about 157 people plus their animals to breed off of? That would be a different story.
Hellebore wrote: Something that I think people aren't crediting re xenomorphs is that the marines killing them aren't packing autoguns.
To quote the film "10 millimeter explosive-tip caseless. Standard light armor piercing round"
They fire 10mm/0.4 cal explosive tipped rounds and their magazines had a 99 round capacity.
So I don't think saying xenomorphs are crappy because they were killed by guardsmen is accurate.
The problem with this is that in 40K you go from autoguns (S3) to bolters (S4). I don't think that their weapons are quite on the "bolter" level of lethality. Maybe they are on the low low end of it?
Lets check some sources... the 10mm x 24 used in the M41 uses a 210 grain (13.6 gram) bullet. It (the Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual, page 14) says that "the terminal ballistics characteristics have been optimized for maximum lethality against infantry wearing personal armor." I can't find anything relating to the amount of explosive in the bullet to compare it to a bolt pistol or other weapon in 40K.
You would have to do some convincing to make those bolter equivalents (S4). Now we can say that the Sniper rifle used by the CMC is equivalent to an IG sniper rifle since that round is a 10mm x 28 (same as the smartgun) and uses a high explosive armor piercing round with a max effective range of 2950 meters, or a ball round that reaches 3,800 meters. That matches up fairly well with anything the IG has for a sniper rifle, and may come close to the performance of the Exitus rifle.
As for the Xenomorphs sucking...they don't really suck, but the bog standard xeno is, IMO, a Genestealer. I would say the drones are Hormagaunts, the warriors are Genestealers, the praetorians are Broodlords, and the queen would be a Lictor. That makes the drones pretty "easy" to kill. Plus, when the Marines finally started shooting, they had Flamers, Grenade Launchers, autoguns and Heavy Stubbers (what I would think the Smartguns are).
Charistoph wrote: But a xenomorph hive with a queen and a small colony of about 157 people plus their animals to breed off of? That would be a different story.
I think that would be a "fair fight" for a full Deathwatch squad. Especially when you start considering some of the psionic abilities the Xenos show in the comics or books. Humans even start making cults allowing themselves to be impregnated by the aliens. Plus, the Queen has psionic control over her minions, etc. Finally, the xenos don't just stop growing...if there is enough food or space, they just keep growing into Praetorians (IIRC) and if they are the last alien left, they can grow into a Queen if they have to. Plus, there are all sorts of different types of xenos, depending on what sort of creature they popped out of. You can easily reflavor those types of xenos as "counts as" for anything you might want. There are gorilla ones, bull ones, snakes, etc. in the Aliens canon.
Hellebore wrote: They may not be S4, but I could see the gun looking like this:
range 18" S3 AP-1 D1 Assault 2
I was just going to say AP -1...I think 24" Rapid Fire 2 might be better than 18" Assault 2, but yeah, AP -1 fits the bill for me Either works good for me.
Colonial Marines also get Carapace armor as standard, so their Armor Save is better than normal IG.
Oh, and the Xenomorphs would definitely get Acid Blood, Living Bomb (for the Boilers), Terror From the Deep, Deep Strike, Chamelonic Skin, Bounding Leap, Adrenal Glands, and all the psyker skills except Onslaught (mainly because Xenos are a pure choppy army except for spitters and boilers).
So, could be, that I got carried away a little bit...
it's not "SciFi" in any way, but a powerful waterbender could just bloodbend the marine to death.
I don't see realistic chances for any other element, though. Firebenders are going to despair, as well as air- or earthbenders.
I know, I'm not exactly on topic. But I watched the series the last few lockdown weeks and felt like I had to comment here.
Nibbler wrote: So, could be, that I got carried away a little bit...
it's not "SciFi" in any way, but a powerful waterbender could just bloodbend the marine to death.
I don't see realistic chances for any other element, though. Firebenders are going to despair, as well as air- or earthbenders.
I know, I'm not exactly on topic. But I watched the series the last few lockdown weeks and felt like I had to comment here.
I dunno. I definitely agree a Waterbender who knows bloodbending has the BEST odds, but I wouldn't discount Earthbenders so easily. 'Specially metalbenders.
VonGerrow wrote: Sadly: my favourite space smuggler, Mal Reynolds would be just a leaf on the wind before a Space Marine.
He does have the Protagonist's Luck stat, and he largely wouldn't even try to fight a Space Marine, but just get away. In that, he might have a chance.
VonGerrow wrote: Sadly: my favourite space smuggler, Mal Reynolds would be just a leaf on the wind before a Space Marine.
He does have the Protagonist's Luck stat, and he largely wouldn't even try to fight a Space Marine, but just get away. In that, he might have a chance.
Isn't there a gunslinger or pistolero stat line for an Inquistor retinue somewhere?
-STS
P.S. A better idea for Mal is just to use a Guard Sergeant, or Veteran Guard Sergeant...he was a Sergeant. Give him an Big Pistol (same stat line as a las pistol) and no armor (or maybe a 6+ for the duster?)
Nibbler wrote: So, could be, that I got carried away a little bit...
it's not "SciFi" in any way, but a powerful waterbender could just bloodbend the marine to death.
I don't see realistic chances for any other element, though. Firebenders are going to despair, as well as air- or earthbenders.
I know, I'm not exactly on topic. But I watched the series the last few lockdown weeks and felt like I had to comment here.
I dunno. I definitely agree a Waterbender who knows bloodbending has the BEST odds, but I wouldn't discount Earthbenders so easily. 'Specially metalbenders.
#
I completely forgot about metalbending... you're right, ofc.
They would have a pretty good chance, crushing those cans.
Nibbler wrote: So, could be, that I got carried away a little bit...
it's not "SciFi" in any way, but a powerful waterbender could just bloodbend the marine to death.
I don't see realistic chances for any other element, though. Firebenders are going to despair, as well as air- or earthbenders.
I know, I'm not exactly on topic. But I watched the series the last few lockdown weeks and felt like I had to comment here.
I dunno. I definitely agree a Waterbender who knows bloodbending has the BEST odds, but I wouldn't discount Earthbenders so easily. 'Specially metalbenders.
#
I completely forgot about metalbending... you're right, ofc.
They would have a pretty good chance, crushing those cans.
Ceramite technically isn't metal, so metalbending wouldn't work.
Blood Angels already have a power called Blood Boil, which is fairly self explanatory.
If you roll higher than the target's toughness on 2d6 you inflict d3 mortal wounds.
Flipsiders wrote:Ceramite technically isn't metal, so metalbending wouldn't work.
From the terminology, it would be as bendable as any hard pottery is. I haven't seen anything one way or another on how specialized an earthbender would have to be for specialized work. It is possible they could be flung around like any rock, at the very least.
slade the sniper wrote:So, what would the statline for a metalbender or other benders be?
Statline would be of any skilled human. Metal bending would probably hit like a Marine's grav gun.
Charistoph wrote: From the terminology, it would be as bendable as any hard pottery is.
Ceramics aren't just hard clay-like materials these days my friend.
They are if they want to deflect incoming weapons without injuring the flesh underneath. Keep in mind that applies not just to Astartes to but to regular humans like Sororitas and Inquisitors.
And it's not like soft ceramics would make them less easy to control. It was more a reference to how easy it would be to crush the people within them like a metalbender would a Bretonnian knight.
Whilst I’m aware dimly of it as a thing, I know nothing about Avatar, and what the bending powers do.
I’ve gathered enough that it’s some form of control over a specific element - but not what, of any, limitations might exist?
For instance, someone mentioned blood-bending. That sounds nasty, and I assume it’s controlling someone’s blood as it’s a liquid, and possibly a very fast exsanguination.
Does that take time? As in, would an Astartes have much of a chance to Nope them with a tactical bolt round to the general body area?
From what I recall of watching the show in my youth, it involves a degree of hand waving and such.
If the marine enters the fight knowing they're an enemy, I can easily imagine them taking them out first.
But from an ambush, the marine may fail to notice the casting in time or fail to distinguish it from a general crowd.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Whilst I’m aware dimly of it as a thing, I know nothing about Avatar, and what the bending powers do.
I’ve gathered enough that it’s some form of control over a specific element - but not what, of any, limitations might exist?
For instance, someone mentioned blood-bending. That sounds nasty, and I assume it’s controlling someone’s blood as it’s a liquid, and possibly a very fast exsanguination.
Does that take time? As in, would an Astartes have much of a chance to Nope them with a tactical bolt round to the general body area?
Short and concise if you could!
In general, the Marine would have the advantage. Benders don't wear much armor, and are just humans in durability. So one good bolter shot would do them in-or even a bad one, honestly. Bolters are nasty.
We never see a Water Bender remove blood from a body-they're from a kid show, so that'd be a touch brutal for it! But they do have control over the opponent's body.
I think a Water or Earth Bender, if they got the drop on a Marine and knew what they were facing, could win. An Air Bender or Fire Bender... Not really.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If Fire Bender includes any form of heat, could send the Power Armour’s power source overheating to the point of explosion?
In theory? Probably.
In practice? Probably not. I'm sure a Fire Bender with sufficient training, time, and access to the technology could figure out how to overheat it, but even then, I doubt it'd be something you could reliably do in a fight, with a giant power-armored Marine trying to cave your skull in or blow you to bits.
The main issue is durability-a Bender is human. One good hit from ANYTHING the Astartes can do will end the fight, whereas the Bender will have to get many good hits to incapacitate or kill a Marine.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Whilst I’m aware dimly of it as a thing, I know nothing about Avatar, and what the bending powers do.
I’ve gathered enough that it’s some form of control over a specific element - but not what, of any, limitations might exist?
For instance, someone mentioned blood-bending. That sounds nasty, and I assume it’s controlling someone’s blood as it’s a liquid, and possibly a very fast exsanguination.
Does that take time? As in, would an Astartes have much of a chance to Nope them with a tactical bolt round to the general body area?
Short and concise if you could!
A lot depends on the skill of the bender, and some specialties can even include a hereditary bent to it. Not all earth benders can bend metal, but can bend lava. While they can all throw rocks, only a few toss boulders as if they were fist-sized.
As for how quickly it can be done, it depends on the form and what is being attempted to be bent. Air and Water tend to take the most movement, but it is still about as quick as any martial art form. We've seen rock throwing as quick as a stamp on the ground. Blood control and ice control was quick as the ability to for the bender to focus on the skill. Combustion bending (fire and air mix) is as quick as a breath and distance to travel. Lightning tends to take a bit more work to charge up, but is a rarer skill.
We haven't seen exsanguination from a water bender, but we have seen them pretty much pull all the water out of a field of flowers and trees, and even use their own sweat. It could be harder because kid's show, but, maybe?
Canadian 5th wrote:
Charistoph wrote: They are if they want to deflect incoming weapons without injuring the flesh underneath.
Untrue. We already have prototype materials that are flexible until they sustain a high-energy impact.
At which point they become rigid . Nor does this discount what I said about earth benders handling softer earth.
JNAProductions wrote:In general, the Marine would have the advantage. Benders don't wear much armor, and are just humans in durability. So one good bolter shot would do them in-or even a bad one, honestly. Bolters are nasty.
We never see a Water Bender remove blood from a body-they're from a kid show, so that'd be a touch brutal for it! But they do have control over the opponent's body.
I think a Water or Earth Bender, if they got the drop on a Marine and knew what they were facing, could win. An Air Bender or Fire Bender... Not really.
Mostly agreed, but don't discount the air or fire bender. If the Marine isn't wearing their helmet, or if it isn't environmentally sealed, the air bender can just take the air away (but most wouldn't, so would be tossed). It is possible the air bender could redirect any bolter rounds with high winds, if they were quick and strong (like Avatar state + Ultra Instinct level). Depending on the will and skill of the fire bender, they can easily produce a flame hotter than a Heavy Flamer or lightning bolts. Just as interesting if they are a lava or combustion bender, too. Of course, like the air bender, if they are fast enough they could alter the flame of bolter rounds or even pre-detonate them (but that would be like Avatar state + Ultra Instinct level skill like the air bender).
For bloodbending, would simply removing the water content from blood be quick to do, or is the separation considered (in canon) a step above in terms of skill?
I would go watch it myself, but whilst I’ve nothing against the medium or those who enjoy it, there’s just something about Anime type stuff which stops me enjoying it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For bloodbending, would simply removing the water content from blood be quick to do, or is the separation considered (in canon) a step above in terms of skill?
I would go watch it myself, but whilst I’ve nothing against the medium or those who enjoy it, there’s just something about Anime type stuff which stops me enjoying it.
Never happened, so don't know. Taking the water out of the flowers and trees was done with the wave of a hand from an extremely experienced bender who had been using blood bending to kidnap people at night to do it. For her it also required a full moon to control the blood (moon helps control the tide and so is considered the first water bender). We've seen one other blood bender not need the moon, but also take away other people's bending by basically forcing the blood away from a certain part of the brain (I think, it could have been spirit bending, but that's not how it came across as Korra was disjointed compared to the original).
Going to say that maybe a Predator (Yautja) would be a counts as Sslyth...
Kabalite armor is pretty light with a 5+
The random blades, spears, etc count as a close combat weapon
The dart shooters can be the shard pistol/rifle
give them some painful weapons from the DE list like nets.
The plasma caster could count as a dark lance or blasters.
So, that is my idea to count Predators as Sslyth. Their ridiculously low Ld just means that they don't really do stand up fights, they do ambushes.
Honestly, i think "the thing" from "Who goes there?" and the John Carpenter movie would be the end of the imperium. Maybe orks, and eldar too, plus the tau. Now the nids, I dunno there...
You think genestealers are bad? Ha! Wait'll you have your precious spess muhreens turned into Things and your hiveworld citizens are being converted in huge numbers within a few hours. Oh and they can shapechange, parts of them can survive if blown apart, etc.
Matt Swain wrote: Honestly, i think "the thing" from "Who goes there?" and the John Carpenter movie would be the end of the imperium. Maybe orks, and eldar too, plus the tau. Now the nids, I dunno there...
You think genestealers are bad? Ha! Wait'll you have your precious spess muhreens turned into Things and your hiveworld citizens are being converted in huge numbers within a few hours. Oh and they can shapechange, parts of them can survive if blown apart, etc.
The Imperium already has a protocol they are ready to meet out for even lesser infestations: Exterminatus. Hard to survive when you're sensitive to heat the surface is turned in to lava. And even Astartes would be executed on suspicion of taint for leaving the planet.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For bloodbending, would simply removing the water content from blood be quick to do, or is the separation considered (in canon) a step above in terms of skill?
I would go watch it myself, but whilst I’ve nothing against the medium or those who enjoy it, there’s just something about Anime type stuff which stops me enjoying it.
Never happened, so don't know. Taking the water out of the flowers and trees was done with the wave of a hand from an extremely experienced bender who had been using blood bending to kidnap people at night to do it. For her it also required a full moon to control the blood (moon helps control the tide and so is considered the first water bender). We've seen one other blood bender not need the moon, but also take away other people's bending by basically forcing the blood away from a certain part of the brain (I think, it could have been spirit bending, but that's not how it came across as Korra was disjointed compared to the original).
I suppose one use would be hydraulic shock, forcing the blood the wrong way round the system.
Matt Swain wrote: Honestly, i think "the thing" from "Who goes there?" and the John Carpenter movie would be the end of the imperium. Maybe orks, and eldar too, plus the tau. Now the nids, I dunno there...
You think genestealers are bad? Ha! Wait'll you have your precious spess muhreens turned into Things and your hiveworld citizens are being converted in huge numbers within a few hours. Oh and they can shapechange, parts of them can survive if blown apart, etc.
The Imperium already has a protocol they are ready to meet out for even lesser infestations: Exterminatus. Hard to survive when you're sensitive to heat the surface is turned in to lava. And even Astartes would be executed on suspicion of taint for leaving the planet.
The thing turns people into itself while maintaining their image and personality perfectly, and all it takes is about an hour alone with someone, plus the thing is highly intelligent. It was building some sort of flying saucer out of junk it scavenged from the camp. It might take over a planet without the imperium even khowing it was taken over, slip a few of itselves onto every ship that come by, spread to a dozen worlds without a whiff of problem.
Now sure, there are issues: Can a thing become a navigator? Can a thing function as a navigator if it takes one over? Plus i suppose some industrial accident might expose a thing, like a guy gets blown to bits in an accident and the pieces start running around to escape. But on the whole I'm not sure the imperium could stop the thing taking over, it's too adaptable and intelligent. I don;t know if a psyker could spot one i admit.
Cronch wrote: I personally see Marines being equivalent to a very upgunned and uparmored Krogan.
Space Marine, meet Wrex. He has the same number of backup organs as you do, a backup central nervous system, he regenerates as fast as you do, he has armour with built in shields and can create biotic barriers to deflect fire, he also has natural armour, he can fire a shotgun which breaks a humans arm from the recoil with one hand and he can fling you around like a ragdoll with his mind. Oh, and his testicles work and his species can lay 1000 eggs per female per year.
Not much familiar with Avatar (other than the movie .... ), but couldn't an Earthbender just drop a boulder on the marine (or beat him with "bent" rocks? Create an earth wall to keep the marine from getting into melee?
Matt Swain wrote:The thing turns people into itself while maintaining their image and personality perfectly, and all it takes is about an hour alone with someone, plus the thing is highly intelligent. It was building some sort of flying saucer out of junk it scavenged from the camp. It might take over a planet without the imperium even khowing it was taken over, slip a few of itselves onto every ship that come by, spread to a dozen worlds without a whiff of problem.
Now sure, there are issues: Can a thing become a navigator? Can a thing function as a navigator if it takes one over? Plus i suppose some industrial accident might expose a thing, like a guy gets blown to bits in an accident and the pieces start running around to escape. But on the whole I'm not sure the imperium could stop the thing taking over, it's too adaptable and intelligent. I don;t know if a psyker could spot one i admit.
A lot depends on if it was identified, of course. If an Inquisitor got an idea that one was on planet, though, the survival of anything suspected to be harboring it would likely be destroyed quickly and with little hesitancy compared to say an Antarctic research team or the crew of the Normandy (for a side ways example).
A Town Called Malus wrote:Space Marine, meet Wrex. He has the same number of backup organs as you do, a backup central nervous system, he regenerates as fast as you do, he has armour with built in shields and can create biotic barriers to deflect fire, he also has natural armour, he can fire a shotgun which breaks a humans arm from the recoil with one hand and he can fling you around like a ragdoll with his mind. Oh, and his testicles work and his species can lay 1000 eggs per female per year.
Well, depending on which ending you have, Wrex may be too worn out or the Genophage was never cured.
Stormonu wrote:Not much familiar with Avatar (other than the movie .... ), but couldn't an Earthbender just drop a boulder on the marine (or beat him with "bent" rocks? Create an earth wall to keep the marine from getting into melee?
Possible. King Bumi (quite possibly one of the most powerful earth benders in the show without Avatar assistance) tossed some "small" pillars in to the face of a giant metal statue and they planted quite deeply in to it, and then he basically tilted a statue over that an Astartes in anything smaller than a Dreadnought wouldn't have been able to budge alone. (The event starts at about 0:40 Bumi's link and runs for about a minute.)
Of course, the average earth bender isn't nearly so strong, but most decently trained ones could toss a boulder capable of crushing an unarmored Marine. A Marine's armor might help him survive depending on his own reactions. I can't remember how well they'd survive an avalanche.
Matt Swain wrote: Honestly, i think "the thing" from "Who goes there?" and the John Carpenter movie would be the end of the imperium. Maybe orks, and eldar too, plus the tau. Now the nids, I dunno there...
You think genestealers are bad? Ha! Wait'll you have your precious spess muhreens turned into Things and your hiveworld citizens are being converted in huge numbers within a few hours. Oh and they can shapechange, parts of them can survive if blown apart, etc.
The Imperium already has a protocol they are ready to meet out for even lesser infestations: Exterminatus. Hard to survive when you're sensitive to heat the surface is turned in to lava. And even Astartes would be executed on suspicion of taint for leaving the planet.
The thing turns people into itself while maintaining their image and personality perfectly, and all it takes is about an hour alone with someone, plus the thing is highly intelligent. It was building some sort of flying saucer out of junk it scavenged from the camp. It might take over a planet without the imperium even khowing it was taken over, slip a few of itselves onto every ship that come by, spread to a dozen worlds without a whiff of problem.
Now sure, there are issues: Can a thing become a navigator? Can a thing function as a navigator if it takes one over? Plus i suppose some industrial accident might expose a thing, like a guy gets blown to bits in an accident and the pieces start running around to escape. But on the whole I'm not sure the imperium could stop the thing taking over, it's too adaptable and intelligent. I don;t know if a psyker could spot one i admit.
I think there was a plot point in The Thing (the 2011 prequel anyway) where it doesn't deal well with non-organic implants. Ear rings, tooth fillings, that sort of thing. Basically spitting them out as it takes someone over. I wonder how well it would deal with the 40k setting where just about everyone seems to be running around with some degree of cybernetic implants. Bionic eyes, limbs, etc.
Damn good points. If people are modified to accept implants maybe it could copy their biomods to accept implants. Would it copy a black carapace or interface with it?
The thing had a starship, one assumes it has a lot of technical knowledge.
Matt Swain wrote: Damn good points. If people are modified to accept implants maybe it could copy their biomods to accept implants. Would it copy a black carapace or interface with it?
The thing had a starship, one assumes it has a lot of technical knowledge.
It could have just hijacked a spaceship from somebody else. That would explain why it crashed into a place that seems useless for its behavior.
Matt Swain wrote: Damn good points. If people are modified to accept implants maybe it could copy their biomods to accept implants. Would it copy a black carapace or interface with it?
I think it's implied that it has limitations to what it can do with its own biology. If it had the ability to not reject and spit out implants, it would probably do so in order to hide better. They caught out infected people at least twice in the 2011 movie based on that behaviour.
The problem with all discussions like this can be summed up as follows:
Who would win, an astartes or a genestealer? Even without mixing canon from other success, there is no clear answer. The space marine will win sometimes, the genestealer will win other times. A space marine can kill a genestealer yet a genestealer is capable of killing a terminator. It all comes down to circumstances.
If the question is, which is best/strongest/most dangerous, my answer will usually be the marine.
Most other protagonists and antagonists have one or two advantages over common soldiers: experience/skill, equipment or bio engineering. Marines have all 3.
As for magic/psychic powers vs a tactical marine, again it comes back to circumstances. Psychic powers can be resisted, even by non psykers. Marines are quite used to fighting against that particular advantage, they often lose, but not always.
I don't think I saw any Stargate references.
Jaffa would lose.
Goa'uld would probably lose
Replicants would lose one on one for sure.
Priest dudes whose name I have forgotten, also lose.
I don't think I saw any Stargate references. Jaffa would lose. Goa'uld would probably lose Replicants would lose one on one for sure. Priest dudes whose name I have forgotten, also lose.
I've been watching my way through stargate recently. Currently partway through season 8. Kull warriors could possibly give them a fight. A legion of bio-engineered super soldiers wearing near impervious armour. Already sound pretty similar to marines honestly.
Spoiler:
Replicators are basically a necron scarab swarm that self-replicates uncontrollably using any available metal and power sources, and captures then overclocks any new technology they encounter. A few of their bug forms by themselves aren't a problem if dealt with swiftly, but their threat is kind of proportional to how far they are allowed to spread.
Arson Fire wrote: I've been watching my way through stargate recently. Currently partway through season 8.
Kull warriors could possibly give them a fight. A legion of bio-engineered super soldiers wearing near impervious armour. Already sound pretty similar to marines honestly.
Spoiler:
Replicators are basically a necron scarab swarm that self-replicates uncontrollably using any available metal and power sources, and captures then overclocks any new technology they encounter.
A few of their bug forms by themselves aren't a problem if dealt with swiftly, but their threat is kind of proportional to how far they are allowed to spread.
I just restarted watching it again, and still in the middle of the first season.
Kull Warriors would have a good chance at range, I don't remember seeing them fight hand to hand, and no idea how their armor interacts with power weapons. I think I remember seeing them fought with heavy kinetics (flying logs, rock slides, etc) and them still surviving, but it has been a long while.
The Goa'uld's tech could be strong enough to defeat a Marine, but most of them are not fighters, and their reactions are decent, but still not enough to make up the difference. Their Jaffa's numbers with their staff weapons might be enough, but one on one, it would depend on who noticed who first and who is the protagonist.
And yeah, the Asgard Replicators are just "weak" and noisy Necron scrab swarms. Easy to handle one on one, depending on the materials making them, but their ability to swarm will be the problem. Good news is that most Marines don't use energy based weapons, but rely on kinetic/explosive weapons to which they are particularly vulnerable.
The Lantian Replicators, though. That required turning their planet in to a literal singularity to defeat, so I'm not sure how good the average Astartes would be.
The priests of the Ori I would classify as humans with very strong psyker powers. If the priest was prepared to deal with them, it would almost be like that Astartes part 4 video and very close to call.
slade the sniper wrote: Got any counts as? I suppose Replicators = scarabs
Aren't most Goauald just humanish+ I don't know much about the show.
They're more like fish-worm parasires that live inside humans. But yeah, any human mini will work as their host body.
Unless they go Unas instead, but they are incredibly rare by the time of the show. Only about 2-3 infected left at all.
Of course, there's Anubis. He would probably be the hardest one to quantify out of them all before getting to the Ori themselves. Phenomenal cosmic power and he can't use a lick of it.
Was just looking at someone's modification of the Mechanicus Flyer and it reminded my of Dune's Ornithopters.
That got me thinking about this thread, and the idea of a Devastator squad with Lascannons hitting a squad of shielded Sardaukar would be... interesting.
I also wonder how well they'd be able to handle slowing down at the last second to get past those shields in melee.
Fremen would have problems though. As good and quick as they are, I don't think they'd be fast enough to take on an armored Astartes. Against an unarmored Astartes they MIGHT have a chance, especially after learning the Wierding Way from the Atreides.
Blndmage wrote:I've always wanted to to Fremin Kroot, this always seemed like the perfect swap to the 40k universe.
Honestly, I don't think the Kroot had the WS or the I to match up with Fremen. I'd put them halfway between Catachans and Wyches, personally. Still, they could work for basic presentation on the tabletop.
Matt Swain wrote:The weirding way (Forget the lynch movie fethover of it with the sonic steampunk boxes) might give marines a hard time.
I saw bits and pieces of Lynch's Dune before I read the book. After reading the book a few times, I managed to get my hands on it for rent and spent a some time going WTF, and the modules were probably the most consistent part of it.
ScyFy's mini-series was a better representation of it, but I still think that their Krys knives won't be very effective against Astartes Power Armor, and that against a seasoned Astartes out of armor, they would still be outmached over all. The Fremen might be faster and might be more precise (anti-shield training can seriously effective here, I think), but the strength and toughness in addition to experience that the average Tactical would have would be the most telling in most cases.
Blndmage wrote: I've always wanted to to Fremin Kroot, this always seemed like the perfect swap to the 40k universe.
Fremen Count As Kroot? Lemme check that stat line...hmmm, I don't think they really fit in terms of stats. I think Fremen would use a Incubus Klaivex using a single Demi-Klaive. Their ability would be the Lethal Precision from the Incubus and a 4+ Invulnerable save due to the Weirding Way.
As for Shields, those are a conundrum for 40K, buuuut, I would say that a Holtzman shield gives a 2+ armor save vs ranged weapons and a 3+ vs melee. A half shield gives a flat 4+ armor save. To cover the "atomic" power detonations of shields and lasers, there seems to be a huge variability as to the damage caused and where it is caused such as inside the shield, outside the shield, inside the laser weapon, killing one person, or both or an entire army. To mimic that on a tabletop, I would go with a large blast template and a 1d6 to determine the center of the explosion. On a 1-2 the explosion is centered on the shooter, on a 3-4 the explosion in centered on the middle of the path the laser took to the target, and on a 5-6, the blast is centered on the target (bypassing the shield). To all targets within the blast template all models take 1d6 mortal wounds, roll separately for model affected.
Astartes Marine vs Protoss Zealot is a fun one. The classic question is whether Protoss Psionics are treated as their own distinct thing or whether they interact with 40k's Psyker framework.
Juvenile aside: international folks on this forum may not be aware, but in British schoolboy slang, 'bender' is a really well-known derogatory term for a male homosexual. The discussion in general, and this line in particular, damn near killed me...
slade the sniper wrote:As for Shields, those are a conundrum for 40K, buuuut, I would say that a Holtzman shield gives a 2+ armor save vs ranged weapons and a 3+ vs melee. A half shield gives a flat 4+ armor save. To cover the "atomic" power detonations of shields and lasers, there seems to be a huge variability as to the damage caused and where it is caused such as inside the shield, outside the shield, inside the laser weapon, killing one person, or both or an entire army. To mimic that on a tabletop, I would go with a large blast template and a 1d6 to determine the center of the explosion. On a 1-2 the explosion is centered on the shooter, on a 3-4 the explosion in centered on the middle of the path the laser took to the target, and on a 5-6, the blast is centered on the target (bypassing the shield). To all targets within the blast template all models take 1d6 mortal wounds, roll separately for model affected.
They've usually presented it as both the lasgun and shield going kerblewy due to the resonances involved. And I think they are both nuclear-powered so reason of the big boom.
Honestly, I'd keep it as an Invul, as AP is unlikely to work against it. Heck, most AP is likely to work against the shot trying to penetrate the Holtzman Shield.
MagicJuggler wrote:Astartes Marine vs Protoss Zealot is a fun one. The classic question is whether Protoss Psionics are treated as their own distinct thing or whether they interact with 40k's Psyker framework.
For Zealots I don't think it would matter much. Most of their psionics are focused on powering their blades and linking to the Khala. The Khala provides unity and apparently helps in developing a group mind for combat if Legacy of the Void's intro cinematic is anything to go by.
It is the Templars who would be the ones needing to be addressed, as they are the ones with wacky powers.
For 7th/8th edition I did mine as Deathwing assault terminators. Lightning claws and the force field counts as terminator 2+ 5++. Havent seen what it would count as for the latest iteration.
Regarding stargate and gualuald, what would happen if the marines were subject to infection by the parasite? Would those marines become even stronger? Would such marines be able to spread the cult among other marines? Would the parasite be able to live inside an astartes?
Gitdakka wrote: Regarding stargate and gualuald, what would happen if the marines were subject to infection by the parasite? Would those marines become even stronger? Would such marines be able to spread the cult among other marines? Would the parasite be able to live inside an astartes?
Well, the Imperium's propaganda will tell you that it would be impossible just like the Hive Guard did not develop out of the Astartes genetic sequences.
That being said, for the capacity of being infected, yes they could. If they could infect an Unas, then an Astartes should represent the same physical difficulty.
Could it control the Host? More than likely in 99% of cases. I'm not so sure about a situation of a Librarian/Grey Knight who already have disciplined minds to counter the Warp. There is the case of Kendra who was able to whisper to the parasite and convince it to ignore the warnings of the Asgard Hammer of Thor defense and get caught by it. She was a normal human raised under the Goa'uld, not a highly trained mentalist. I'd say it was a coin flip's chance at best, in favor of the parasite when not best.
Could it spread a cult? No and yes. It depends on how it approached creating the cult. It would literally have to work for centuries trying to warp the Chapter from within and eventually become a strong Captain or Chapter Master and turn them against the Imperium. We've seen it happen with numerous other cults of Choas and Renegades, so possible, but still a challenge.
I really don't think they'd have much chance in the star trek universe. Even TOS.
Watch this video:
Now they had antimatter mortar rounds badically the size of baseballs and a man familkiar with them was concerned that they'd be firing one at a target 'only" 1200 yards away. That's 3,600 feet.
For you metric types that's a about 100 meters over a kilometer.
Now, seriously, first off if they can stabilize anti matter enough to use it in mortar rounds ready to go at a moment's notice and if a weapon like that is possibly dangerous to the firer at 1200 yards/1100meters, imagine what it's going to be like on a 40k tabletop.
"Feth your invulnerable save, you're dead!"
That baseball sized warhead must have had a yield of 1 kilton or two.
Matt Swain wrote: I really don't think they'd have much chance in the star trek universe. Even TOS.
Watch this video:
Now they had antimatter mortar rounds badically the size of baseballs and a man familkiar with them was concerned that they'd be firing one at a target 'only" 1200 yards away. That's 3,600 feet.
For you metric types that's a about 100 meters over a kilometer.
Now, seriously, first off if they can stabilize anti matter enough to use it in mortar rounds ready to go at a moment's notice and if a weapon like that is possibly dangerous to the firer at 1200 yards/1100meters, imagine what it's going to be like on a 40k tabletop.
"Feth your invulnerable save, you're dead!"
That baseball sized warhead must have had a yield of 1 kilton or two.
Except that we can see that there's no explosion and that even the greenery on that hill is unaffected by the blast. They fired a glorified strobe light as if it was going to do anything.
A continuing problem for both Star Wars and Star Trek is that their visuals and descriptions just do not match. They talk about gigatons and then show some piddly explosion. They talk about massive fleet battles then show ships firing at each other in visual range where they look huge to an outside observer (thus negating the argument that they are using magnification tech on their bridge).
So, if you go by what you see...then apparently Star Fleet puts explosives in their control panels, Stormtroopers have armor that increases damage and the actual range of spacecraft weapons is about 100 kilometers.
Alternately you can go by what the characters say, which is still a bit stupid...BUT if you make the assumption that the characters in the movie/show are just about as competent as normal people, then they really don't a damn thing about anything that is not directly involved in their day to day job.
Ask a naval officer about a mortar, and you are going to get a really wide gap of knowledge. Ask a Columbian drug smuggler about US Navy detention facility SOPs and they probably won't know.
So basically, I sort of use a two pronged approach:
1. Most explosions IRL are not as OMFG WOW as they are in film. So, basically give the benefit of the doubt so that maybe the warhead isn't the best choice, or something like that...again, fireballs are not really a thing that happens IRL that you can see in real time.
2. Most of the people talking about tech things outside of their field probably don't know much beyond something they heard once. How many people have heard stupidity like you can't use a fifty cal on personnel, a bullet sucks in air, a fifty cal is so powerful a near miss can kill, the M-16 was designed to wound, ballistic armor could make getting shot more dangerous because it will cause the bullet to expand, etc etc. Basically, people are stupid, and if you think that Kirk and Spock somehow went to Infantry Mortar Leaders Course to learn how to use mortars and not just hipshoot it by kentucky windage and luck.
As for it being "a little close" we have to assume that they are accurately estimating distance (not easy), then having their mortar set for airburst (via proximity fuze). Then they move to the BACK of their position, which puts them at more risk of fragmentation or whatever weirdo radiation is emanating from said airburst. I would just assume they jacked up the range estimation, guessed on the height of airburst and fired. The enemy, upon taking indirect fire probably (and incorrectly) assumed that the humans had gotten some reinforcements and that since they would have to assault the humans, said assault would be at much more risk having to assault through indirect fire...so they pulled off. Stranger things have happened in war.
Finally, I am just going to headcanon that the dude was meaning 1200 feet and not 1200 yards.
Most of the stuff from Battletech is lightly to give Marines a hard time.
Even a comparison with Battletech battle armour against Marines doesnt leave them in a good place. Especially if you start talking about assault and heavy class suits.
Anything that can put down heavy fire is lightly to mess up Marines. The whole strength and close combat ability is overblown. It simply doesn't matter. CC hasn't caused major casualties in wars since the musket and cannon were developed.
On an operational level you'd actually start wondering how Marines would survive against other sci-fi forces as portrayed in Battletech, Dirtside, LaserStorm, etc. Can't actually see their ground forces making much impact in any of these universes.
40k is more fantasy in space than any real attempt at futuristic warfare. When 40k meets real military sci-fi I don't think the results don't look good for most 40k stuff - especially the Marines.
niall78 wrote: Most of the stuff from Battletech is lightly to give Marines a hard time.
Even a comparison with Battletech battle armour against Marines doesnt leave them in a good place. Especially if you start talking about assault and heavy class suits.
Anything that can put down heavy fire is lightly to mess up Marines. The whole strength and close combat ability is overblown. It simply doesn't matter. CC hasn't caused major casualties in wars since the musket and cannon were developed.
At the scale that Battletech usually plays in, yes, but Battletech plays more at an Epic or Adeptus Titanicus level. But if you convert Battletech to 40K, things change as most Battlemechs would classify as Lords of War, and so would a lot of the Combat Vehicles. Battletech armor is intended to be ablative to prevent penetration, while 40K armor attempts to deflect the penetration, and Battletech weaponry is designed to deal with armor that ablates.
To use an example, their missile systems are racks of multiple munitions that individually aren't very strong, but whittle away the armor. Individually speaking, a short-range missile hits about as hard as a Multilaser, and the long-range missile is much weaker, closer to a lasgun (but hey, you're shooting up to 20 of them in a rack, though a good portion miss). You have to use Thunderbolts to match what 40K uses, but Battletech uses Anti-Missile Systems which make short work of Thunderbolts, while only reducing the number of hits that the SRM and LRM racks use.
Now, to be fair, I don't think an Astartes could handle a hit from a Medium Laser very well without engaging an Iron Halo, Storm Shield, or similar shielding system, much less a Particle Projection Cannon, but then heavy infantry isn't usually the target of such in Battletech (at least, before Clan Battle Armor was introduced).
niall78 wrote: 40k is more fantasy in space than any real attempt at futuristic warfare. When 40k meets real military sci-fi I don't think the results don't look good for most 40k stuff - especially the Marines.
True to a point, but on any level where Infantry can make a difference, you'll find that the Astartes start pushing ahead. They may not work well against Bolos (AI-driven Baneblades), David Weber's Dahak (a starship that hid itself as Earth's moon), or possibly Saberhagen's Berserkers (think Skynet with access to asteroid-sized starships), but against Star Wars, Halo, or Star Trek, they would fare rather well.
To use Halo as an example, Spartans are very few in number when compared to Astartes, and Astartes usually come in packs. Think about when you're playing Co-Op Halo 2 and just much you tear in to things, and then have up to 10 of you guys running around how easy it would be. The Astartes will also usually have better close combat skills and be tougher than the Spartans are without their shield (even if you consider the armor to be the same).
niall78 wrote: Most of the stuff from Battletech is lightly to give Marines a hard time.
Even a comparison with Battletech battle armour against Marines doesnt leave them in a good place. Especially if you start talking about assault and heavy class suits.
Anything that can put down heavy fire is lightly to mess up Marines. The whole strength and close combat ability is overblown. It simply doesn't matter. CC hasn't caused major casualties in wars since the musket and cannon were developed.
At the scale that Battletech usually plays in, yes, but Battletech plays more at an Epic or Adeptus Titanicus level. But if you convert Battletech to 40K, things change as most Battlemechs would classify as Lords of War, and so would a lot of the Combat Vehicles. Battletech armor is intended to be ablative to prevent penetration, while 40K armor attempts to deflect the penetration, and Battletech weaponry is designed to deal with armor that ablates.
To use an example, their missile systems are racks of multiple munitions that individually aren't very strong, but whittle away the armor. Individually speaking, a short-range missile hits about as hard as a Multilaser, and the long-range missile is much weaker, closer to a lasgun (but hey, you're shooting up to 20 of them in a rack, though a good portion miss). You have to use Thunderbolts to match what 40K uses, but Battletech uses Anti-Missile Systems which make short work of Thunderbolts, while only reducing the number of hits that the SRM and LRM racks use.
Now, to be fair, I don't think an Astartes could handle a hit from a Medium Laser very well without engaging an Iron Halo, Storm Shield, or similar shielding system, much less a Particle Projection Cannon, but then heavy infantry isn't usually the target of such in Battletech (at least, before Clan Battle Armor was introduced).
niall78 wrote: 40k is more fantasy in space than any real attempt at futuristic warfare. When 40k meets real military sci-fi I don't think the results don't look good for most 40k stuff - especially the Marines.
True to a point, but on any level where Infantry can make a difference, you'll find that the Astartes start pushing ahead. They may not work well against Bolos (AI-driven Baneblades), David Weber's Dahak (a starship that hid itself as Earth's moon), or possibly Saberhagen's Berserkers (think Skynet with access to asteroid-sized starships), but against Star Wars, Halo, or Star Trek, they would fare rather well.
To use Halo as an example, Spartans are very few in number when compared to Astartes, and Astartes usually come in packs. Think about when you're playing Co-Op Halo 2 and just much you tear in to things, and then have up to 10 of you guys running around how easy it would be. The Astartes will also usually have better close combat skills and be tougher than the Spartans are without their shield (even if you consider the armor to be the same).
Would agree with Halo and Star Wars. Haven't really been exposed to much Star Trek ground war stuff.
Star Wars has the fantasy in space thing going as well.
Against well fluffed out sci-fi universes that deal with ground combat 40k stuff isn't really at the races though. Especially if you start talking at the operational level or even larger force tactics. I'd agree that scale is an issue. Epic gave a good feel for bigger level 40k - it was still fantasy WW1 in space though. I don't mean that in a bad way either as I loved the original Space Marine and 2nd edition.
Epic again made a joke of the universe fluff. You could - in a bigger game - lose a Marine Chapter. Fluff in 40k is a moving feast as others have said before. Scale and power never seem to fit or be standardised within the universe.
People often focus on the toughness of Astartes, and forget about their sheer stamina.
Not only can they physically fight longer than their foes, but they don’t suffer from sleep deprivation, and are largely immune to psychological warfare.
Consider that Man and Dog are a successful hunting partnership, because both are persistence hunters. Sure, many animals are faster - but they can’t maintain it for very long.
An Astartes doesn’t just survive hit and fade attack strategies, but can maintain it for a ridiculously long period. Not hours, but days.
They don’t need to stop and tend to all but the most serious of wounds, because their bodies heal quickly and efficiently.
They can eat pretty much anything. So even the most inhospitable of terrain and that isn’t of much concern.
The issue with pitting the Imperium against the Empire is that they both want to fight very different types of wars. Star Wars wants to keep the fight in space and prevent you from ever landing. They also have hypermobility with ships able to traverse the galaxy in less than a day. No 40k force, aside from the Necrons, can ever pick a fight on its own terms.
This isn't even to mention that a pair of moon-sized battle stations were designed and built, in secret, in less than two decades. The shipyards of the IoM can barely repair some of the ships in their fleets let alone pull a Death Star out of nowhere. Other forces are equally limited otherwise the IoM would have been overrun already. Then there are things like a small collection of systems under Sith control building a fleet of planet-destroying warships.
If we assume that there is even rough parity between their space forces in a straight-up fight the IoM stands no chance against the First Order let alone the Empire.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: People often focus on the toughness of Astartes, and forget about their sheer stamina.
Not only can they physically fight longer than their foes, but they don’t suffer from sleep deprivation, and are largely immune to psychological warfare.
Consider that Man and Dog are a successful hunting partnership, because both are persistence hunters. Sure, many animals are faster - but they can’t maintain it for very long.
An Astartes doesn’t just survive hit and fade attack strategies, but can maintain it for a ridiculously long period. Not hours, but days.
They don’t need to stop and tend to all but the most serious of wounds, because their bodies heal quickly and efficiently.
They can eat pretty much anything. So even the most inhospitable of terrain and that isn’t of much concern.
How does that stack up to a robot/droid that can do that but better and which can be built at a rate that makes guard recruitment look slow?
Canadian 5th wrote: The issue with pitting the Imperium against the Empire is that they both want to fight very different types of wars. Star Wars wants to keep the fight in space and prevent you from ever landing. They also have hypermobility with ships able to traverse the galaxy in less than a day. No 40k force, aside from the Necrons, can ever pick a fight on its own terms.
This isn't even to mention that a pair of moon-sized battle stations were designed and built, in secret, in less than two decades. The shipyards of the IoM can barely repair some of the ships in their fleets let alone pull a Death Star out of nowhere. Other forces are equally limited otherwise the IoM would have been overrun already. Then there are things like a small collection of systems under Sith control building a fleet of planet-destroying warships.
If we assume that there is even rough parity between their space forces in a straight-up fight the IoM stands no chance against the First Order let alone the Empire.
On the other hand, Imperial-class Star Destroyers are little more than Cruiser sized ships at BFG's scale, and the Warp sometimes drops people out of it before they even leave.
As for those moon-sized battle stations, that assumes they can keep them operational long enough. One advantage of the Imperium of Man is that they have outside enemies that they can regularly focus on, as opposed to the Galactic Empire who had no real outside threats to work against. Also the Imperium of Man vastly outnumbers the population the Galactic Empire is willing to use.
Of course, one of the problems with having so many outside enemies is that one is always fighting so resources are always scattered.
Charistoph wrote: On the other hand, Imperial-class Star Destroyers are little more than Cruiser sized ships at BFG's scale
A cruiser-sized ship with 40k fighter-like speed and battleship class firepower sounds like a nightmare for the IoM.
[T]he Warp sometimes drops people out of it before they even leave.
As often it eats an entire fleet or causes it to arrive decades late. Unpredictable travel times for every ship in a given fleet is not an advantage.
As for those moon-sized battle stations, that assumes they can keep them operational long enough.
Does the IoM have an X-Wing equivalent that is piloted by somebody with GEoMK level predestined greatness? If not they never lose the first Death Star let alone any follow ups.
Also the Imperium of Man vastly outnumbers the population the Galactic Empire is willing to use.
That doesn't mean anything when we know Palpatine is willing to use clones and droids to his advantage.
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Charistoph wrote: On the other hand, Imperial-class Star Destroyers are little more than Cruiser sized ships at BFG's scale
A cruiser-sized ship with 40k fighter-like speed and battleship class firepower sounds like a nightmare for the IoM.
More like a Corvette's speed, and limited to just guns with no fighter tracking back up by no torpedo or lance weaponry and a paltry number of small craft.
Canadian 5th wrote:
[T]he Warp sometimes drops people out of it before they even leave.
As often it eats an entire fleet or causes it to arrive decades late. Unpredictable travel times for every ship in a given fleet is not an advantage.
All to true, but sometimes it is when it works. Merely keeping some of the factors in mind.
Canadian 5th wrote:
As for those moon-sized battle stations, that assumes they can keep them operational long enough.
Does the IoM have an X-Wing equivalent that is piloted by somebody with GEoMK level predestined greatness? If not they never lose the first Death Star let alone any follow ups.
No, they just lose them to their own internal struggles before they are ever deployed against the Imperium. As it is, they would probably be facing a fleet that would be firing boarding torpedoes full of Astartes to blow them up like Space Hulks. The Death Stars' guns were rather poor at tracking such small things.
It would be interesting to see if they could deploy Exterminatus scale weaponry against it, though. Also would be interesting to see if Abaddon's Planet Killer would be able to do much.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Also the Imperium of Man vastly outnumbers the population the Galactic Empire is willing to use.
That doesn't mean anything when we know Palpatine is willing to use clones and droids to his advantage.
Except he stopped using them fairly early, and any other reference of Imperials using clones and droids for combat is back in Legends.
Insectum7 wrote:Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
Which is more scary, the Death Star with legions of Stormtroopers or a Space Hulk full of Genestealers and Orks?
Charistoph wrote: More like a Corvette's speed, and limited to just guns with no fighter tracking back up by no torpedo or lance weaponry and a paltry number of small craft.
Lances have a shorter range and most IoM ships are mainly armed with macro cannons which track worse than anything in Star Wars and are hand loaded for a crap RoF.
All to true, but sometimes it is when it works. Merely keeping some of the factors in mind.
So a lone ship shows up to a battle early. If it's a halfway defended system it then has to deal with PDF forces alone, if it's a backwater it lacks the troops to pacify the planet and gets stomped in a couple of hours when a sector fleet shows up.
No, they just lose them to their own internal struggles before they are ever deployed against the Imperium.
I doubt the rebels are an issue when the GE actually has a proper outside threat. If the DS is required to win the battle Luke won't have the force lead him to destroy it.
As it is, they would probably be facing a fleet that would be firing boarding torpedoes full of Astartes to blow them up like Space Hulks. The Death Stars' guns were rather poor at tracking such small things.
They were poor at tracking them at extremely close range. Also, the DS would likely fire upon a capital ship or fleet of ships that would need to close range slooooowly to even launch a boarding action. There's a reason why the rebels attacked it with only a handful of small craft as any capital ships would have been destroyed before they did anything.
It would be interesting to see if they could deploy Exterminatus scale weaponry against it, though. Also would be interesting to see if Abaddon's Planet Killer would be able to do much.
How do they ever get these weapons in position to attack a station that can jump across the galaxy in less than a day when the warp and then the sublight travel into a system can take months to cross a sector?
Except he stopped using them fairly early, and any other reference of Imperials using clones and droids for combat is back in Legends.
He stopped using them because he didn't have any need for them. Droids and clones are useless against a rebellion.
That said, we see Dark Troopers in the Mandalorian, and that project would surely have been given higher priority if the GE had a full-scale war to wage.
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Charistoph wrote: More like a Corvette's speed, and limited to just guns with no fighter tracking back up by no torpedo or lance weaponry and a paltry number of small craft.
Lances have a shorter range and most IoM ships are mainly armed with macro cannons which track worse than anything in Star Wars and are hand loaded for a crap RoF.
Lances are also designed to defeat any of the defenses normally seen quite easily. Also interesting that you ignored the torpedos, which Star Destroyers only have heavy guns and snub fighters to defend against them.
Canadian 5th wrote:
All to true, but sometimes it is when it works. Merely keeping some of the factors in mind.
So a lone ship shows up to a battle early. If it's a halfway defended system it then has to deal with PDF forces alone, if it's a backwater it lacks the troops to pacify the planet and gets stomped in a couple of hours when a sector fleet shows up.
I have not heard of a fleet being separated like that in the Warp, but it is possible. That's part of the benefit and deficit of Warp travel.
Canadian 5th wrote:
No, they just lose them to their own internal struggles before they are ever deployed against the Imperium.
I doubt the rebels are an issue when the GE actually has a proper outside threat. If the DS is required to win the battle Luke won't have the force lead him to destroy it.
You're assuming the Rebels know about the Imperium of Man and are more scared of the Imperium of Man than the Galactic Empire. To be fair, most of the aliens would be just as scared of both of them.
Canadian 5th wrote:
As it is, they would probably be facing a fleet that would be firing boarding torpedoes full of Astartes to blow them up like Space Hulks. The Death Stars' guns were rather poor at tracking such small things.
They were poor at tracking them at extremely close range. Also, the DS would likely fire upon a capital ship or fleet of ships that would need to close range slooooowly to even launch a boarding action. There's a reason why the rebels attacked it with only a handful of small craft as any capital ships would have been destroyed before they did anything.
The Rebels also didn't have much of a fleet on location and could arrive in time to answer the Death Star, the Imperuim of Man has a LOT of starships in comparison. If they couldn't get boarding torpedoes to work, there are enough Storm* landers that could handle the task of boarding.
I don't know how slowly they would need to close with, honestly. I haven't taken the time to translate all that out. Also consider that "slow" in BFG may not translate to "slow" in Star Wars.
Canadian 5th wrote:
It would be interesting to see if they could deploy Exterminatus scale weaponry against it, though. Also would be interesting to see if Abaddon's Planet Killer would be able to do much.
How do they ever get these weapons in position to attack a station that can jump across the galaxy in less than a day when the warp and then the sublight travel into a system can take months to cross a sector?
A lot of Imperium capital ships carry such weaponry, and I'm sure that someone like Tarkin or Palpatine would try and prove how much bigger a dog their Death Star is to take them on directly.
And it takes a bit longer to cross the galaxy in Star Wars. Usual transit time is about a week from Coruscant to the edge of the galaxy, at least. The first Death Star only carried a Class 4 hyperdrive, making it about an eighth as fast in hyper as the Millenium Falcon. It would also have to exit much sooner due to its much more massive size. The Death Star 2 was even larger, and there are some statements it had a faster hyperdrive (Class 3), but its size would still limit its capacity to maneuver.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Except he stopped using them fairly early, and any other reference of Imperials using clones and droids for combat is back in Legends.
He stopped using them because he didn't have any need for them. Droids and clones are useless against a rebellion.
Not true. They are actually quite effective due to their ability to follow orders. They also didn't have any ties to family to give them remorse over their actions.
The reason the Trooper system was implemented was literally to deprive rebels of manpower by encouraging those who would fight in to a system that would brainwash them in to loyal machines.
Canadian 5th wrote:That said, we see Dark Troopers in the Mandalorian, and that project would surely have been given higher priority if the GE had a full-scale war to wage.
The Mandalorian was post-Palpatine. Even if we were to consider Dark Forces (which is Legends now), the prototypes were all cyborgs needing life to provide the Force aspects desired.
They can teleport troops from low to maybe at a stretch medium orbit. That's a maximum range of 22,000 km, that's well within can't miss range for a Star Destroyer.
"The Venator-class's eight heavy dual turbolaser turrets were its main weapons and had two tracking modes. In its precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of ten light minutes. During close-range fights, the turrets could rotate in three seconds with their fast-tracking mode."
Even if you don't buy that we can see Star Destroyer weapons ranges demonstrated at Hoth and they're at least within the same range band as an IoM teleporter. That means they might get a strike team or two inside, with no maps, no knowledge of Imperial technology, and no Vader telling his troops not to kill the crew of the ship he just bugged to track the rebels back to their base. They might spend weeks trudging through the halls of the DS without finding anything vital to even attack.
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Charistoph wrote: Lances are also designed to defeat any of the defenses normally seen quite easily.
Defeating void shields doesn't mean they do the same to the shields of any other universe.
Also interesting that you ignored the torpedos, which Star Destroyers only have heavy guns and snub fighters to defend against them.
You mean those torpedos that are slow enough to miss IoM vessels? I don't think they have a hope in hell of hitting anything that sees them coming.
I have not heard of a fleet being separated like that in the Warp, but it is possible. That's part of the benefit and deficit of Warp travel.
There's no benefit to random travel times with a slow average speed.
You're assuming the Rebels know about the Imperium of Man and are more scared of the Imperium of Man than the Galactic Empire. To be fair, most of the aliens would be just as scared of both of them.
You really think Palpatine wouldn't flog that propaganda as soon as he learned of the threat. This is exactly the outside threat that he needs to keep his empire together.
The Rebels also didn't have much of a fleet on location and could arrive in time to answer the Death Star, the Imperuim of Man has a LOT of starships in comparison.
A lot of ships that they literally cannot ever gather. It would take many decades just for these ships to all travel to one location and then they'd still need to start moving towards the DS's last known location. They're never bringing it to battle unless the DS jumps into them.
If they couldn't get boarding torpedoes to work, there are enough Storm* landers that could handle the task of boarding.
That assumes they can cut through the hull. Can you show that they're able to do so?
I don't know how slowly they would need to close with, honestly. I haven't taken the time to translate all that out. Also consider that "slow" in BFG may not translate to "slow" in Star Wars.
So then put in the effort. I can find quotes to support my points I expect that it wouldn't take much work for you to do the same.
A lot of Imperium capital ships carry such weaponry, and I'm sure that someone like Tarkin or Palpatine would try and prove how much bigger a dog their Death Star is to take them on directly.
I'm sure lobbing a Virus bomb at the DS would really accomplish a lot. Hell most 40k Exterminatus attacks aren't the same level as a Base Delta Zero attack which can be done in hours by a trio of ISDs:
And it takes a bit longer to cross the galaxy in Star Wars. Usual transit time is about a week from Coruscant to the edge of the galaxy, at least. The first Death Star only carried a Class 4 hyperdrive, making it about an eighth as fast in hyper as the Millenium Falcon. It would also have to exit much sooner due to its much more massive size. The Death Star 2 was even larger, and there are some statements it had a faster hyperdrive (Class 3), but its size would still limit its capacity to maneuver.
Even if it takes a week for a fleet to go from Center to Rim that's hundreds of times faster than any typical IoM fleet can manage.
Not true. They are actually quite effective due to their ability to follow orders. They also didn't have any ties to family to give them remorse over their actions.
How does that help win hearts and minds or hunt down a rebel cell? Droids in Star Wars are powerful and intelligent but are known for being uncreative and thus not suited for an occupation.
The Mandalorian was post-Palpatine. Even if we were to consider Dark Forces (which is Legends now), the prototypes were all cyborgs needing life to provide the Force aspects desired.
Yes, but we know he had a hand in their creation. I don't know that Palpatine would have sped up the project in the event of war but he could have. In the worst-case he dusts off the old battle droid factories and really sets to work cranking out a fleet which we've seen him do before as Chancellor of the Republic. When SW wants war material they can sure crank it out.
Also, we see Phase 3 units in the show which are fully robotic.
Charistoph wrote: Lances are also designed to defeat any of the defenses normally seen quite easily.
Defeating void shields doesn't mean they do the same to the shields of any other universe.
Doesn't mean that they can't, either. Speaking of void shields, you're assuming a turbolaser will be as/more effective than the standard guns on an Imperium ship.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Also interesting that you ignored the torpedos, which Star Destroyers only have heavy guns and snub fighters to defend against them.
You mean those torpedos that are slow enough to miss IoM vessels? I don't think they have a hope in hell of hitting anything that sees them coming.
You mean like a star destroyer following a light freighter that flies between you and a squadron mate and then runs their conning tower in to your flank?
Canadian 5th wrote:
I have not heard of a fleet being separated like that in the Warp, but it is possible. That's part of the benefit and deficit of Warp travel.
There's no benefit to random travel times with a slow average speed.
Sure there is when the odds are in your favor, and it's the only one you have access to. Especially considering which universe are we operating in, because there is no guarantee one system will work in the other.
Canadian 5th wrote:
You're assuming the Rebels know about the Imperium of Man and are more scared of the Imperium of Man than the Galactic Empire. To be fair, most of the aliens would be just as scared of both of them.
You really think Palpatine wouldn't flog that propaganda as soon as he learned of the threat. This is exactly the outside threat that he needs to keep his empire together.
If the Rebels never see them, would they believe Palpatine when all they see is the problems on their own world?
Canadian 5th wrote:
The Rebels also didn't have much of a fleet on location and could arrive in time to answer the Death Star, the Imperuim of Man has a LOT of starships in comparison.
A lot of ships that they literally cannot ever gather. It would take many decades just for these ships to all travel to one location and then they'd still need to start moving towards the DS's last known location. They're never bringing it to battle unless the DS jumps into them.
Yes, it was decades between A New Hope and Return of the Jedi. Oh wait, it was closer to 5 years. And you're the one talking about how quick hyperspace travel is...
Or were you referring to Imperium fleets? Your use of pronouns is undefining. If you are referring to Imperium fleets, they do not need to assemble them all as they have A LOT more ships, and they are already coordinated as fleets.
Canadian 5th wrote:
If they couldn't get boarding torpedoes to work, there are enough Storm* landers that could handle the task of boarding.
That assumes they can cut through the hull. Can you show that they're able to do so?
Why cut through a hull when you can see hanger bays hung like a belt across the center of the sphere?
Canadian 5th wrote:
I don't know how slowly they would need to close with, honestly. I haven't taken the time to translate all that out. Also consider that "slow" in BFG may not translate to "slow" in Star Wars.
So then put in the effort. I can find quotes to support my points I expect that it wouldn't take much work for you to do the same.
Hey, you're the one trying to prove how slow they are, so maybe you should provide the references.
Canadian 5th wrote:
A lot of Imperium capital ships carry such weaponry, and I'm sure that someone like Tarkin or Palpatine would try and prove how much bigger a dog their Death Star is to take them on directly.
I'm sure lobbing a Virus bomb at the DS would really accomplish a lot. Hell most 40k Exterminatus attacks aren't the same level as a Base Delta Zero attack which can be done in hours by a trio of ISDs:
Why not one of the crust crackers? Not all Exterminatus utilize virus-based systems. After all, they have to deal with Necrons, too.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And it takes a bit longer to cross the galaxy in Star Wars. Usual transit time is about a week from Coruscant to the edge of the galaxy, at least. The first Death Star only carried a Class 4 hyperdrive, making it about an eighth as fast in hyper as the Millenium Falcon. It would also have to exit much sooner due to its much more massive size. The Death Star 2 was even larger, and there are some statements it had a faster hyperdrive (Class 3), but its size would still limit its capacity to maneuver.
Even if it takes a week for a fleet to go from Center to Rim that's hundreds of times faster than any typical IoM fleet can manage.
Can typically manage, but it more points out how you are letting your prejudices color your commentary and ignore others.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Not true. They are actually quite effective due to their ability to follow orders. They also didn't have any ties to family to give them remorse over their actions.
How does that help win hearts and minds or hunt down a rebel cell? Droids in Star Wars are powerful and intelligent but are known for being uncreative and thus not suited for an occupation.
Clones could hunt them down quite readily. More importantly, Clones were designed to only be used for relatively short time (Captain Rex was about 10-13 during the Clone Wars, and 17 in Rebels) and assist in the destabilization of the Republic along with the Confederacy's droid armies. Palpatine also planted the seeds to drop them by tying them tightly to the Jedi Order in all imagery.
As for winning hearts and minds, like the Stormtroopers did any better? That was the role of the propaganda corps, not the soldiers. The soldiers were always seen as the fist of the Empire, the same role as Clones did for the Republic and the Droids did for the Confederacy.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The Mandalorian was post-Palpatine. Even if we were to consider Dark Forces (which is Legends now), the prototypes were all cyborgs needing life to provide the Force aspects desired.
Yes, but we know he had a hand in their creation. I don't know that Palpatine would have sped up the project in the event of war but he could have. In the worst-case he dusts off the old battle droid factories and really sets to work cranking out a fleet which we've seen him do before as Chancellor of the Republic. When SW wants war material they can sure crank it out.
Also, we see Phase 3 units in the show which are fully robotic.
Again, 5-6 years after Palpatine's death in Mandalorian. Do you have any canon material which places the Dark Trooper under Palpatine's order? As you said, the Empire can really crank out War Materiel, would this not be enough time for a base development run, especially considering all the new materiel the Clones received in less than 3 years of Clone Wars such as the Venator, Victory, and Arquitens cruisers?
Charistoph wrote: Doesn't mean that they can't, either. Speaking of void shields, you're assuming a turbolaser will be as/more effective than the standard guns on an Imperium ship.
Yeah, I am because by both canon word of god and calculations they are.
You mean like a star destroyer following a light freighter that flies between you and a squadron mate and then runs their conning tower in to your flank?
They also managed to avoid ramming one another in that case as I recall.
Sure there is when the odds are in your favor, and it's the only one you have access to.
That doesn't mean anything when your foe has better.
Especially considering which universe are we operating in, because there is no guarantee one system will work in the other.
Usually, for versus debates you assume that both sides tech will work in the opponent's universe. Otherwise, there isn't a debate.
If the Rebels never see them, would they believe Palpatine when all they see is the problems on their own world?
You think that the Emperor wouldn't allow independent reporters to write stories about the horrors of this new foe so people will properly believe the threat?
Or were you referring to Imperium fleets? Your use of pronouns is undefining. If you are referring to Imperium fleets, they do not need to assemble them all as they have A LOT more ships, and they are already coordinated as fleets.
Given that it doesn't take years to get ships across the galaxy in SW I figured it would be obvious from context.
As for your a lot more ships statement, prove it. Back up that statement with quotes.
Why cut through a hull when you can see hanger bays hung like a belt across the center of the sphere?
Those are shielded and can be sealed with heavy blast doors.
Hey, you're the one trying to prove how slow they are, so maybe you should provide the references.
You haven't posted a single thing on behalf of any of your arguments thus far. I'm not providing any more proof of my claims beyond this post until you provide more of your own.
Why not one of the crust crackers? Not all Exterminatus utilize virus-based systems. After all, they have to deal with Necrons, too.
Crust crackers... That's what an ISDs heavy turbolasers do. That's not special.
Can typically manage, but it more points out how you are letting your prejudices color your commentary and ignore others.
I'm assuming both sides operate at their typical capacity. Given that warp travel is notoriously finicky it seems stupid to assume that they'll get their best speeds often enough to matter.
Clones could hunt them down quite readily.
If they weren't required why would anybody want to keep clones around?
Palpatine also planted the seeds to drop them by tying them tightly to the Jedi Order in all imagery.
In a total war scenario, you'd bring them - as well as the droids - out and spin the PR as using a weapon of last resort against a most dangerous foe.
As for winning hearts and minds, like the Stormtroopers did any better? That was the role of the propaganda corps, not the soldiers. The soldiers were always seen as the fist of the Empire, the same role as Clones did for the Republic and the Droids did for the Confederacy.
Only in sympathetic sectors. In a firmly Imperial sector, the elite infantry of the Empire would serve as a PR win. Just like a Marine is a hero in the US and public enemy number one in parts of the middle east.
Again, 5-6 years after Palpatine's death in Mandalorian. Do you have any canon material which places the Dark Trooper under Palpatine's order? As you said, the Empire can really crank out War Materiel, would this not be enough time for a base development run, especially considering all the new materiel the Clones received in less than 3 years of Clone Wars such as the Venator, Victory, and Arquitens cruisers?
They can teleport troops from low to maybe at a stretch medium orbit. That's a maximum range of 22,000 km, that's well within can't miss range for a Star Destroyer.
"The Venator-class's eight heavy dual turbolaser turrets were its main weapons and had two tracking modes. In its precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of ten light minutes. During close-range fights, the turrets could rotate in three seconds with their fast-tracking mode."
Even if you don't buy that we can see Star Destroyer weapons ranges demonstrated at Hoth and they're at least within the same range band as an IoM teleporter. That means they might get a strike team or two inside, with no maps, no knowledge of Imperial technology, and no Vader telling his troops not to kill the crew of the ship he just bugged to track the rebels back to their base. They might spend weeks trudging through the halls of the DS without finding anything vital to even attack.
The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
Orbital ranges are tiny compared to BFG weapons ranges anyways. I think a SM Strike Cruiser would happily be able to trade shots with a SD.
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
Charistoph wrote: Doesn't mean that they can't, either. Speaking of void shields, you're assuming a turbolaser will be as/more effective than the standard guns on an Imperium ship.
Yeah, I am because by both canon word of god and calculations they are.
Ah, fandom numbers from biased sites. Soo accurate. Not to mention we have no idea how they'd interact with the Void Shields.
Canadian 5th wrote:
You mean like a star destroyer following a light freighter that flies between you and a squadron mate and then runs their conning tower in to your flank?
They also managed to avoid ramming one another in that case as I recall.
Depends on which source you look at. There is no indication one way or the other that they hit other than the collision alarm and officers stumbling on the bridge in the movie, but the novelization does state a collision occurred. It was also referenced as happening in later novelizations as a captain remembers the event. Of course, that latter could be Legends. It's been a while since I read it.
And it was more an example of maneuverability, which they could have easily avoided each other if they are as fast and nimble as you are suggesting.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Especially considering which universe are we operating in, because there is no guarantee one system will work in the other.
Usually, for versus debates you assume that both sides tech will work in the opponent's universe. Otherwise, there isn't a debate.
Ah, so an ASSUMPTION... While I'll go as far as the weapon systems and basic normal space drives and such, this would be implying that the Warp is available in the Star Wars universe.
Though, I'm sure the Tau would LOVE to get their hands on even a Class 4 Hyperdrive.
Canadian 5th wrote:
If the Rebels never see them, would they believe Palpatine when all they see is the problems on their own world?
You think that the Emperor wouldn't allow independent reporters to write stories about the horrors of this new foe so people will properly believe the threat?
The Empire had independent reporters? That would be a first.
At best he would have a senator delegation who had been spouting anti-authoritarian drivel like Mothma or Organa to see the situation.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Or were you referring to Imperium fleets? Your use of pronouns is undefining. If you are referring to Imperium fleets, they do not need to assemble them all as they have A LOT more ships, and they are already coordinated as fleets.
Given that it doesn't take years to get ships across the galaxy in SW I figured it would be obvious from context.
As for your a lot more ships statement, prove it. Back up that statement with quotes.
A galaxy spanning Imperium having as few ships as a nascent Rebellion? Riiiight.
P. 86 Battlefleet Gothic, "Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varrying size, although in some sectors this will be more or less, according to the importance of the sector and the number of enemies it must contend with. As as as these destroyers, frigates, cruisers, and battleships..."
Meanwhile, the Rebellion brought about 37 ships to The Battle of Endor that weren't transports or fighters.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Why cut through a hull when you can see hanger bays hung like a belt across the center of the sphere?
Those are shielded and can be sealed with heavy blast doors.
Like they were at the Battle of Yavin and Endor, right? Keep in mind that the shield to keep in the atmosphere and ray shielding will not stop a rocket or a landing ship, and a blast door isn't as hard to get through as the hull armor.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Hey, you're the one trying to prove how slow they are, so maybe you should provide the references.
You haven't posted a single thing on behalf of any of your arguments thus far. I'm not providing any more proof of my claims beyond this post until you provide more of your own.
So you want ME to prove YOUR argument? Interesting.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Why not one of the crust crackers? Not all Exterminatus utilize virus-based systems. After all, they have to deal with Necrons, too.
Crust crackers... That's what an ISDs heavy turbolasers do. That's not special.
Actually, no. No turbo laser can crack the crust, they just melt and shatter what's on top of the crust. That was one of the reasons why Solo was so amazed to see the damage to Alderaan as it would take more than the whole fleet (outside DS-1) could accomplish.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Clones could hunt them down quite readily.
If they weren't required why would anybody want to keep clones around?
Non sequitor response.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Palpatine also planted the seeds to drop them by tying them tightly to the Jedi Order in all imagery.
In a total war scenario, you'd bring them - as well as the droids - out and spin the PR as using a weapon of last resort against a most dangerous foe.
Possibly, but we never really saw Palpatine in a total war scenario where he wasn't controlling the whole thing. If Thrawn was able to make his decisions, I would agree, but Palpatine and many Moffs were quite stupid when it came to such considerations.
Canadian 5th wrote:
As for winning hearts and minds, like the Stormtroopers did any better? That was the role of the propaganda corps, not the soldiers. The soldiers were always seen as the fist of the Empire, the same role as Clones did for the Republic and the Droids did for the Confederacy.
Only in sympathetic sectors. In a firmly Imperial sector, the elite infantry of the Empire would serve as a PR win. Just like a Marine is a hero in the US and public enemy number one in parts of the middle east.
Another non sequitor response. There is no place that is purely sympathetic and totally Imperial due to the underground. Stormtroopers were still the fist against the underground and most of the well to do who did go in to the military were part of the officer corps. The PC would still handle the job of winning hearts and minds to get people to volunteer to join the military.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Again, 5-6 years after Palpatine's death in Mandalorian. Do you have any canon material which places the Dark Trooper under Palpatine's order? As you said, the Empire can really crank out War Materiel, would this not be enough time for a base development run, especially considering all the new materiel the Clones received in less than 3 years of Clone Wars such as the Venator, Victory, and Arquitens cruisers?
"Despite this, the experimental Phase II Dark Trooper was evaluated by the Imperial Military during the Galactic Civil War..."
This sure makes it seem like Palpatine would have had a hand in their creation though the quotes from legends were far more conclusive.
Okay, let's look at the references.
The first attempt was considered a failure, leaving only the KS-series as the only combat droids that the Empire used.
The Dark Trooper project being during the Galactic Civil War is a mobile video game. Those are often non-canon, and only had the cyborg Dark Troopers, not the total battle droid.
Converting them to a droid is listed in the Mandalorian, which is 9 ABY. and in Dawn of Rebellion RPG book, but doesn't give a page reference or a time stamp.
It doesn't provide any quotes as to when the decision to go pure droid again was made.
Insectum7 wrote:The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
When? They didn't target the ground at all because it would bounce off the shields. By the time they brought it down, Vader was landing, and no one wanted to piss off Vader by dropping ordnance on his head because he probably would survive and be VERY unhappy. The only time we se Star Destroyers fire in Empire is when they are chasing the Falcon.
@Hoth, yeah? It's been a while. I thought there was some bits of SDs firing to the ground. . . But in hindsight I might be thinking of a cut scene from Tie Fighter, lol.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: People often focus on the toughness of Astartes, and forget about their sheer stamina.
Not only can they physically fight longer than their foes, but they don’t suffer from sleep deprivation, and are largely immune to psychological warfare.
Consider that Man and Dog are a successful hunting partnership, because both are persistence hunters. Sure, many animals are faster - but they can’t maintain it for very long.
An Astartes doesn’t just survive hit and fade attack strategies, but can maintain it for a ridiculously long period. Not hours, but days.
They don’t need to stop and tend to all but the most serious of wounds, because their bodies heal quickly and efficiently.
They can eat pretty much anything. So even the most inhospitable of terrain and that isn’t of much concern.
How does that stack up to a robot/droid that can do that but better and which can be built at a rate that makes guard recruitment look slow?
Depends entirely upon the robot/droid in question I guess.
How capable are they of learning? Do they have adaptive combat programming, or set parameters? Are they centrally controlled, or fully independent?
Given Astartes are quite unlike anything else, are they designed specifically to combat Astartes (and so with their speed, agility etc taken into account), or like a T-800, not really expecting much resistance beyond a starving survivor with little to no formal military training? After all, entire wars let alone battles have been lost because of an underestimated foe.
That alone I’d wager largely renders T-800 type stuff moot to an Astartes. They might be closer to a physical match in terms of raw strength and resilience, but without being designed to fight Astartes, the T-800 is at a serious disadvantage. Yes. They can learn. But you need to survive your mistakes to learn from them.
And in a full on War, your production facilities would be the first thing the Astartes would strike at - along with your supply chain. And if you’re as daft as the Trade Federation and have a literal Off Switch, that’s gonna get pressed pretty flipping soon.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And in a full on War, your production facilities would be the first thing the Astartes would strike at - along with your supply chain. And if you’re as daft as the Trade Federation and have a literal Off Switch, that’s gonna get pressed pretty flipping soon.
Not necessarily. Astartes also like to head hunt, too. It REALLY depends on the Chapter and the information on hand, too. I'd see most Chapters handing off the production facility targets to the Guard while they go after the engineers, managers, and the "Off Switch" (it wasn't really a switch, more a centralized control system, but it sure worked like one when destroyed!).
However, a Chapter like Iron Hands or Imperial Fists who look at materiel more than troops would probably target strong points or production facilities more than say the Black Templars or Space Wolves.
Could you imagine, though, Dark Angels hearing of a member of the Chosen in the enemy ranks, send in Deathwing and finding Darth Maul instead?
Just a quick blurb about Powered Armored in Starship Troopers:
"So how many weapons we looking at here? Well, in the first chapter of the book, Rico is participating in a quick raid on an alien city. Their objective was to smash and run, inflicting as much damage as possible but avoiding engagement with defense forces. For this missions he dropped into battle with: a rifle, a heavy flamer, a handheld flamer, an automatic grenade launcher (called a Y-rack) and multiple reloads, conventional thrown grenades, incendiary micro grenades (called firepills), and one psy-ops grenade (a talking timebomb). And topping it off since Rico was a non-com working on the flank, he was issued a rocket launcher with four low-yield nuclear rockets."
So, powered armor troops in Starship Troopers are much closer to the heavy battlesuits of the Tau than normal spacemarine infantry.
Flipsiders wrote: Does anyone know how fast a bolter's bolts actually go? It's pretty easy to determine that the "average Marine versus average Jedi" fight would hinge entirely around whether a Jedi would be able to stop or reflect them. It's canon in SW (at least legends) that bullets are too fast for a Jedi to catch, but obviously, even discounting the use of a lightsaber, blaster shots are not.
That is, unless we're really stressing the whole "home field advantage" thing, since if the Jedi is able to get within melee range then the Marine is as good as toast.
Given size, and weight ratio. Anywhere from 320-440 meters per second. As well as the rocket launching from the barrel to a distance of roughly a meter, before it's rocket propulsion sets in, and traveling anywhere up to 500 meters. Much like a conventional RPG, just liter, and probably faster.
There was a lot of testing done on weapons like this in the early to late 60s, called Gyrojet weapons. Though the biggest that they ever hit, was 20mm, and they could barely achieve anything as close to what they expected.
Take with a deathstar-sized pinch of salt. I avoided the old wars vs trek stuff back in the day but even I recognise that particular name. "Wrote a book to win the internet".
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
Take with a deathstar-sized pinch of salt. I avoided the old wars vs trek stuff back in the day but even I recognise that particular name. "Wrote a book to win the internet".
His numbers are literally canon so you can't even argue that he didn't win the debate.
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Oborosen wrote: Given size, and weight ratio. Anywhere from 320-440 meters per second. As well as the rocket launching from the barrel to a distance of roughly a meter, before it's rocket propulsion sets in, and traveling anywhere up to 500 meters. Much like a conventional RPG, just liter, and probably faster.
There was a lot of testing done on weapons like this in the early to late 60s, called Gyrojet weapons. Though the biggest that they ever hit, was 20mm, and they could barely achieve anything as close to what they expected.
Except that as shown in the canon 'Ultramarines: A Warhammer 40,0000 Move' that isn't how bolters actually function:
Scroll to 45 seconds and you'll see bolter fire.
Bolter rounds are likely a propelled gyrojet that shoots forth with bullet-like speed and uses its motor as both a tracer and a way to maintain a flat shooting trajectory over a long distance. This is supported in other material as we have references to their recoil being hard to handle*.
Insectum7 wrote: The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
It still establishes ranges.
Orbital ranges are tiny compared to BFG weapons ranges anyways. I think a SM Strike Cruiser would happily be able to trade shots with a SD.
A common and relatively circular orbit is 35,786 km. Over even that kind of distance, an energy weapon will have an advantage over most IoM ship-mounted weapons. The exceptions being lances and spinal mounted nova cannons.
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
They typically know the rough layout of the ships they're boarding as many space hulks are former IoM vessels and many boarding actions take place against Chaos vessels which won't have major systems located dissimilarly to their own vessels. Even for more ramshackle Ork vessels, they'll figure out that the power plant is either in the middle or near the engines.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
Canadian 5th wrote: His numbers are literally canon so you can't even argue that he didn't win the debate.
It does take a special kind of person to write a book to win an internet argument...
Do you have proof that this is what he did or is this just speculation? My take is that he showed them his website, they were impressed by his technical knowledge and skill at explaining things, and he got the book deal because of that. From there he was able to make his takes on things canon but as those numbers were all derived anyway they don't conflict with anything we see on screen.
Insectum7 wrote: The Hoth sequence shows them targeting the ground. A planet is hard to miss from orbit.
It still establishes ranges.
Not really since nothing was fired in orbit, nor was anything mentioning range was stated in the Hoth sequence, other than the AT-ATs. The only time we see something actually out of range in space for Star Wars was The Last Jedi, and that movie was so bad at everything that it is rejected as canon by any reasonable fan.
Edit: The original movie did state a firing range for the moon of Yavin, but it also had to clear the gas giant before shooting it as being the concern.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Orbital ranges are tiny compared to BFG weapons ranges anyways. I think a SM Strike Cruiser would happily be able to trade shots with a SD.
A common and relatively circular orbit is 35,786 km. Over even that kind of distance, an energy weapon will have an advantage over most IoM ship-mounted weapons. The exceptions being lances and spinal mounted nova cannons.
Common for who?
Canadian 5th wrote:
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
They typically know the rough layout of the ships they're boarding as many space hulks are former IoM vessels and many boarding actions take place against Chaos vessels which won't have major systems located dissimilarly to their own vessels. Even for more ramshackle Ork vessels, they'll figure out that the power plant is either in the middle or near the engines.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
In some ways it is easier because it isn't a slap-dashed affair, and the station has records providing maps. Now getting to that information and pulling it up could be a challenge, but it exists.
So, still not that different an experience for Space Hulk veterans, except it's cleaner, brighter, and a lot less Genestealers and Orks.
Canadian 5th wrote: Do you have proof that this is what he did or is this just speculation? / From there he was able to make his takes on things canon but as those numbers were all derived anyway they don't conflict with anything we see on screen.
From a 'conflicting on screen' standpoint, there are remarkably few nuclear fireballs igniting in any scene where starship weapons strike something inside an atmosphere. Not all that familiar with his work so had to google a few and they were... interesting.
Did you know for example that the dinky little missiles fired by those clone landing craft from the prequels were listed has having (checks saxton) considerably more explosive power than the bomb on Nagasaki?
Lets see what else... medium turbolaser (aka generic capitol ship gun). Accurate range 10 light minutes, firepower 200 gigatons... (checks google) that's like shooting a 200 mile wide crater into Mars, from Earth, with each shot from each barrel of each 'medium' gun. I guess I missed that in the film.
You know i've worked for both Lucas Arts and Disney in the past and they are working with GW these days... perhaps I should put in a call, see if they need an author :p
Charistoph wrote: Not really since nothing was fired in orbit, nor was anything mentioning range was stated in the Hoth sequence, other than the AT-ATs.
I'm fairly sure the base shaking as the rebels escaped was due to orbital bombardment. I'll check the novelization when I'm able.
As for ranges, we know the size of a Star Destroyer, if we can get a fixed point of reference we should be able to figure out how far away it is when the ion cannon hits it based on its size.
The only time we see something actually out of range in space for Star Wars was The Last Jedi, and that movie was so bad at everything that it is rejected as canon by any reasonable fan.
I'm not a TLJ fan but it is canon...
Edit: The original movie did state a firing range for the moon of Yavin, but it also had to clear the gas giant before shooting it as being the concern.
Yeah, I don't doubt that the DS could have messed up Yavin itself but it was clearly designed to crack rocky planets.
Common for who?
Common for the communications satellites that orbit our own blue marble.
In some ways it is easier because it isn't a slap-dashed affair, and the station has records providing maps. Now getting to that information and pulling it up could be a challenge, but it exists.
Can they read basic? Do they have the technical expertise to interface with the Empire's computer systems? I doubt it.
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A.T. wrote: Did you know for example that the dinky little missiles fired by those clone landing craft from the prequels were listed has having (checks saxton) considerably more explosive power than the bomb on Nagasaki?
Is there any plausible reason they can't have that yield when we see a smuggler able to destroy asteroids with relatively tiny munitions?
Lets see what else... medium turbolaser (aka generic capitol ship gun). Accurate range 10 light minutes, firepower 200 gigatons... (checks google) that's like shooting a 200 mile wide crater into Mars, from Earth, with each shot from each barrel of each 'medium' gun. I guess I missed that in the film.
We know that Star Wars weapons are of adjustable yield hence all the scenes where we see characters calling for maximum or intensified firepower. See the AT-AT on Hoth for an example of dialing up higher single shot firepower.
Also, where do we ever see those heavy guns fire on anything that isn't either a shield or a neutronium impregnated hull designed to, as much as possible, take such attacks?
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
The Rogue Trader book puts the (presumably Imperial) maximum range at 100,000 kilometers, actually.
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
The Rogue Trader book puts the (presumably Imperial) maximum range at 100,000 kilometers, actually.
Which is less than a third of the way to the moon, for reference. That is well within Death Star main weapon range
As for "wandering around for weeks" I doubt it. SM perform boarding actions against unknown enemy vesssels all the time, I'm pretty sure they can figure it out.
They typically know the rough layout of the ships they're boarding as many space hulks are former IoM vessels and many boarding actions take place against Chaos vessels which won't have major systems located dissimilarly to their own vessels. Even for more ramshackle Ork vessels, they'll figure out that the power plant is either in the middle or near the engines.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
Totally typical. Space Marines deploy against space stations, defense stations, bunkers, cities, governors mansions, alien space ships, posessed space ships, daemon planets, bioships, whatever. The Death Star is pretty typical, just large.
Here's what I'm really curious about. How would Storm Troopers even stop SM Terminators? They're basically guardsmen with lasguns, and they'll be fighting in relatively confined spaces without vehicle support.
Insectum7 wrote: Pfft, Space Marines would just storm the Death Star. I've seen how those storm troopers fight.
Seeing Terminators fight their way through the Death Star would be sick. Bring along a Librarian to counter Force shenennigans and it's on.
How would they reach it? Warp travel is so much slower than hyperspace travel so there's a good chance they can't even reach the system that contains the DS. On top of that drop pods and boarding torpedoes are slower and less maneuverable than a Star Wars fighter making any such attack a suicide run at best. Vader's last-minute fighter screen would have cleaned up any such attack and even if it didn't I'm not sure how the Marines could even board.
Teleport.
They've never explained the range on mobile teleporters in 40k. I know some teleporters, or 'tellyportas', can have interstellar range. Also apparently ork tellyporta teknolgy is supposed to be more powerful than imperial terleport tech.
The Rogue Trader book puts the (presumably Imperial) maximum range at 100,000 kilometers, actually.
Which is less than a third of the way to the moon, for reference.
That seems like more than enough.
Edit: "That is well within Death Star main weapon range" Approach it from the other side and out of it's firing arc?
Canadian 5th wrote: Is there any plausible reason they can't have that yield when we see a smuggler able to destroy asteroids with relatively tiny munitions?
Also, where do we ever see those heavy guns fire on anything that isn't either a shield or a neutronium impregnated hull designed to, as much as possible, take such attacks?
Look at all that neutronium that he's crumpling with his toes, the guy clearly doesn't skip leg day. - https://youtu.be/BjkEPhZTcMY?t=144
The whole weapons vs armour thing is bobbins anyway. You might as well claim the marines bolters have the firepower of a thousand suns, but you only ever seem them hitting neutronium impregnated flak armour.
Insectum7 wrote: But not necessarily effective or reliable ranges against smaller unpredictably moving targets.
It's a good thing that I can quote a 10 light second aimed fire range then isn't it?
Totally typical. Space Marines deploy against space stations, defense stations, bunkers, cities, governors mansions, alien space ships, posessed space ships, daemon planets, bioships, whatever. The Death Star is pretty typical, just large.
Scale makes even easy things a relative pain to do.
Here's what I'm really curious about. How would Storm Troopers even stop SM Terminators? They're basically guardsmen with lasguns, and they'll be fighting in relatively confined spaces without vehicle support.
Lasguns don't take fist-sized chunks out of duracrete do they?
See below from 1:05 until the shooting stops:
That seems like more than enough.
What IoM vessel is getting that close without being detected and blown away by the DS's surface guns?
Are you sure they were firing the high yield versions of those weapons rather than something suited to their mission? It's not like we don't have IRL examples of aircraft having many different weapons loadouts.
Look at all that neutronium that he's crumpling with his toes, the guy clearly doesn't skip leg day. - https://youtu.be/BjkEPhZTcMY?t=144
The obviously wasn't a piece of armor plate. You can even see it's a loose square of thin metal before he lands on it.
The whole weapons vs armour thing is bobbins anyway. You might as well claim the marines bolters have the firepower of a thousand suns, but you only ever seem them hitting neutronium impregnated flak armour.
If that's what the setting said and we saw the effects of a stray bolter round one hitting the planet they're on I'd totally buy it. That's how this exercise works.
If that's what the setting said and we saw the effects of a stray bolter round one hitting the planet they're on I'd totally buy it. That's how this exercise works.
The planet is clearly made of neutronium. Or perhaps the bolter round was dialed down.
Or perhaps Saxtons' figures bear absolutely no resemblance to the films visuals. [shrug]
Here's what I'm really curious about. How would Storm Troopers even stop SM Terminators? They're basically guardsmen with lasguns, and they'll be fighting in relatively confined spaces without vehicle support.
Lasguns don't take fist-sized chunks out of duracrete do they?
See below from 1:05 until the shooting stops:
The same scene shows blasters glancing off the Falcon armor, and Leia takes a hit and it's basically a flesh wound in Jedi.
That seems like more than enough.
What IoM vessel is getting that close without being detected and blown away by the DS's surface guns?
How good are they at detecting and tracking vessels reliably? In the movies it looks like . . not great. In fact I don't think I see DS surface guns firing at anything other than rebel fighters near the surface.
Which is less than a third of the way to the moon, for reference.
That seems like more than enough.
The death star superlaser has an effective range of millions of kilometres. How do you propose to approach undetected?
Dunno, a weapons range says little about effective target detection, aquisition and tracking/hitting ranges. I think BFG tables and some weapons are in the "millions of kilometers" range. I don't have too much experience with BFG though.
If that's what the setting said and we saw the effects of a stray bolter round one hitting the planet they're on I'd totally buy it. That's how this exercise works.
The planet is clearly made of neutronium. Or perhaps the bolter round was dialed down.
Or perhaps Saxtons' figures bear absolutely no resemblance to the films visuals. [shrug]
Except we have literal on-screen evidence that 'laser' weaponry in SW can be dialed up and down in power. Do I need to start posting clips of every time somebody has asked for increased firepower in a SW film for you to get this or are you just a troll who can't do math and has to resort to flat earther style 'I dun see no curve' arguments?
Canadian 5th wrote: Except we have literal on-screen evidence that 'laser' weaponry in SW can be dialed up and down in power. Do I need to start posting clips of every time somebody has asked for increased firepower in a SW film for you to get this or are you just a troll who can't do math and has to resort to flat earther style 'I dun see no curve' arguments?
I've provided clips. Even took the time to pick out a clip of weapons being fired at a spacecraft to cover the whole 'neutronium impregnated hull' thing you mentioned.
I don't dispute that SW weapons can be dialed up and down, just your assertion that every single time we see them on screen they are just coincidentally firing in some alternate mode a thousand times less powerful.
Charistoph wrote: Not really since nothing was fired in orbit, nor was anything mentioning range was stated in the Hoth sequence, other than the AT-ATs.
I'm fairly sure the base shaking as the rebels escaped was due to orbital bombardment. I'll check the novelization when I'm able.
While Vader is walking through it? Ballsy. Before that, it was the cannon fire from the AT-ATs because the planetary shield wasn't yet down.
Canadian 5th wrote:As for ranges, we know the size of a Star Destroyer, if we can get a fixed point of reference we should be able to figure out how far away it is when the ion cannon hits it based on its size.
That's a planetary defense Ion Cannon, not the Heavy Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons that are on an Imperial class. That's like using the guns of the Maginot line to define the ranges of the early Panzer tanks.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The only time we see something actually out of range in space for Star Wars was The Last Jedi, and that movie was so bad at everything that it is rejected as canon by any reasonable fan.
I'm not a TLJ fan but it is canon...
There have been rumors that movie, or even its trilogy, may be discounted due to its lack of positive reception. They are just rumors though, so they are probably not true and you should tell everyone you know. It also doesn't help that movie contradicts soooo much about what we've seen as canon from other movies that I have a hard time accepting its canonicity. Dark Forces carries more canon for me than that moldering pile of waste.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Edit: The original movie did state a firing range for the moon of Yavin, but it also had to clear the gas giant before shooting it as being the concern.
Yeah, I don't doubt that the DS could have messed up Yavin itself but it was clearly designed to crack rocky planets.
True, I was just clarifying about mentioing ranges in the original series. They also talk about engaging at point-blank range in Return of the Jedi, but that is more of going away from the purpose of the discussion.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Common for who?
Common for the communications satellites that orbit our own blue marble.
So not anyone we're talking about.
Canadian 5th wrote:
In some ways it is easier because it isn't a slap-dashed affair, and the station has records providing maps. Now getting to that information and pulling it up could be a challenge, but it exists.
Can they read basic? Do they have the technical expertise to interface with the Empire's computer systems? I doubt it.
I think you mean Aurebesh, that's the written language.
Maps in the Death Star are pictographic and didn't have any Aurebesh on them at all (though, the one showing them was a droid who already understood Aurebesh in Star Wars).
And as I said, pulling it up would be a challenge, largely due to different programming methods as well as the language differences.
A.T. wrote: I've provided clips. Even took the time to pick out a clip of weapons being fired at a spacecraft to cover the whole 'neutronium impregnated hull' thing you mentioned.
Weapons fired at a spacecraft should be either absorbed by shielding (to varying degrees as we do see damage bleed through shields), or dispersed by the hull. When we see hits that inflict minimal damage to a ship it should probably make a person think that the ships are tough rather than that the weapons are weak; much the same as we would think if we watched a WW2 tank fail to defeat the armor of a modern MBT.
I don't dispute that SW weapons can be dialed up and down, just your assertion that every single time we see them on screen they are just coincidentally firing in some alternate mode a thousand times less powerful.
Except for the times we see them do real damage by slagging space rocks with ease, blowing fist-size chunks out of walls, or other such feats which can and have been scaled from.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: While Vader is walking through it? Ballsy. Before that, it was the cannon fire from the AT-ATs because the planetary shield wasn't yet down.
Like I said I'll check and see if my recollection is correct.
That's a planetary defense Ion Cannon, not the Heavy Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons that are on an Imperial class. That's like using the guns of the Maginot line to define the ranges of the early Panzer tanks.
How do you know if the Hoth Ion Cannon is supposed to be any more or less powerful than a ship-mounted weapon?
There have been rumors that movie, or even its trilogy, may be discounted due to its lack of positive reception. They are just rumors though, so they are probably not true and you should tell everyone you know. It also doesn't help that movie contradicts soooo much about what we've seen as canon from other movies that I have a hard time accepting its canonicity. Dark Forces carries more canon for me than that moldering pile of waste.
Disney won't retconn an entire movie trilogy due to butthurt fans on the internet.
So not anyone we're talking about.
The comment that spawned talk of orbits was that orbital ranges were low. I pointed out that they're actually fairly large if still small in terms of how vast space is.
I think you mean Aurebesh, that's the written language.
Indeed. It's been a fair while since I had to dig deep into my Star Wars knowledge.
Maps in the Death Star are pictographic and didn't have any Aurebesh on them at all (though, the one showing them was a droid who already understood Aurebesh in Star Wars).
And as I said, pulling it up would be a challenge, largely due to different programming methods as well as the language differences.
As I recall even R2-D2 shouldn't have been able to do it so a challenge seems an understatement.
I was wrong it's 10 light-minute ranges for aimed fire.
"The Venator-class's eight heavy dual turbolaser turrets were its main weapons and had two tracking modes. In its precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of ten light minutes. During close-range fights, the turrets could rotate in three seconds with their fast-tracking mode."
That quote is from wookiepedia for the class of ship in question. I can get a full quote when I'm home and have access to my books.
The same scene shows blasters glancing off the Falcon armor
Is the Falcon supposed to be made of duracrete now?
Leia takes a hit and it's basically a flesh wound in Jedi.
There's no good answer to this one. The answers are either whatever she's wearing is better than stormtrooper armor or that she uses the force to stop it as a reflex. As far as I know, there isn't a canon explanation for that particular case.
How good are they at detecting and tracking vessels reliably? In the movies it looks like . . not great. In fact I don't think I see DS surface guns firing at anything other than rebel fighters near the surface.
The Death Star's guns are specifically for anti-capital ship work and were never designed to engage fighters which weren't seen as a threat. Had they deployed TIEs as would have been sensible the rebel attack would have posed zero threat to the statation.
Dunno, a weapons range says little about effective target detection, aquisition and tracking/hitting ranges. I think BFG tables and some weapons are in the "millions of kilometers" range. I don't have too much experience with BFG though.
A Clone Wars era capital ship has a canon range of 10 light-minutes for anti-ship firepower from its main guns. Unless you have a reason why the DS should have worse gunnery capabilities then it should be able to swat down fleets at any range required.
Charistoph wrote: Ah, fandom numbers from biased sites. Soo accurate. Not to mention we have no idea how they'd interact with the Void Shields.
If they're so obviously biased, and Connor's numbers are no by any means biased, you should be able to disprove them by showing that either the math or the method is incorrect. Can you do this?
Canadian 5th wrote:Depends on which source you look at. There is no indication one way or the other that they hit other than the collision alarm and officers stumbling on the bridge in the movie, but the novelization does state a collision occurred. It was also referenced as happening in later novelizations as a captain remembers the event.
In that case, I get to use the RotJ novelization which proves that fighters need shields to be down before they can seriously threaten a capital ship.
And it was more an example of maneuverability, which they could have easily avoided each other if they are as fast and nimble as you are suggesting.
Ships run aground when they can easily avoid it. This was a communications and navigational error and not an example showing they can't maneuver.
Ah, so an ASSUMPTION... While I'll go as far as the weapon systems and basic normal space drives and such, this would be implying that the Warp is available in the Star Wars universe.
Why even make the assumption that on or both sides FTL systems don't work in a versus where that is literally required for them to fight one another?
The Empire had independent reporters? That would be a first.
There were still independent systems even entire clusters like Hapes that were left alone. Unless entire systems didn't have their own press this alone proves the presence of independent reporters.
A galaxy spanning Imperium having as few ships as a nascent Rebellion? Riiiight.
That was never what I said... I said that the IoM would have trouble assembling their fleets due to the slow speed of warp travel and their unreliable FTL comms.
Like they were at the Battle of Yavin and Endor, right? Keep in mind that the shield to keep in the atmosphere and ray shielding will not stop a rocket or a landing ship, and a blast door isn't as hard to get through as the hull armor.
Why wouldn't the hanger be covered by a proper shield when not launching or retrieving fighters?
So you want ME to prove YOUR argument? Interesting.
You've offered no evidence for your claims. So I'm going to do the same here..
Actually, no. No turbo laser can crack the crust, they just melt and shatter what's on top of the crust. That was one of the reasons why Solo was so amazed to see the damage to Alderaan as it would take more than the whole fleet (outside DS-1) could accomplish.
The crust is the top layer of the planet's surface (leaving aside oceans and the atmosphere) so there isn't a layer over the crust to be merely melted and shattered. Unless you're taking crust cracking to mean blowing up a planet an ISD can indeed crack some crust with authority before melting a planet down into a many meters thick layer of molten slag.
There is no place that is purely sympathetic and totally Imperial due to the underground.
That's like saying that not every American thinks fallen soldiers are heroes. Sure it's tehnically true but in reality, enough people do that soldiers make for good propaganda.
Okay, let's look at the references.
The first attempt was considered a failure, leaving only the KS-series as the only combat droids that the Empire used.
The Dark Trooper project being during the Galactic Civil War is a mobile video game. Those are often non-canon, and only had the cyborg Dark Troopers, not the total battle droid.
Converting them to a droid is listed in the Mandalorian, which is 9 ABY. and in Dawn of Rebellion RPG book, but doesn't give a page reference or a time stamp.
It doesn't provide any quotes as to when the decision to go pure droid again was made.
Palpatine started the program, he very well might have asked to have it sped up, or he may have returned to older technology or just press-ganged a bunch of citizens into the fight. The method is immaterial the fact is the Empire can crank out the material needed for war extremely quickly and wouldn't hesitate to use droids as required.
Canadian 5th wrote: When we see hits that inflict minimal damage to a ship it should probably make a person think that the ships are tough rather than that the weapons are weak; much the same as we would think if we watched a WW2 tank fail to defeat the armor of a modern MBT.
Perhaps. But what I wouldn't think is that the WW2 tank had the firepower of a modestly sized nuke and the modern MBT was made of some kind of nuke-absorbing unobtanium that reduced the size of the blast to the equivalent of a WW2 shell.
A.T. wrote: Perhaps. But what I wouldn't think is that the WW2 tank had the firepower of a modestly sized nuke and the modern MBT was made of some kind of nuke-absorbing unobtanium that reduced the size of the blast to the equivalent of a WW2 shell.
The only way to defend against energy weapons at this scale is to absorb the energy and radiate it out later. This isn't conducive to creating the massive fireballs you seem to think we should be seeing.
Insectum7 wrote: So if the Death Star was so capable at engaging capital ships, why does it need to be protected by a whole fleet of star destroyers in Jedi?
To bait the trap... The whole point of everything at the DSII was to bait the rebels in and destroy them and in doing so turn Luke to the dark side. If there wasn't a fleet guarding it the rebels would have clued to something be wrong far sooner than they did.
Also, if Fighters aren't seen as a threat that leaves room for a Thunderhawk to deliver troops.
Thunderhawks don't make warp jumps so how is the ship launching them supposed to get within the Thunderhawk's limited range to launch such a strike?
Speaking of distance, how do these ships ever get close at all? Warp jumps drop you out some distance from a star and it can take weeks of sublight travel to reach a destination. Without being able to match the speed at which a Star Wars force can move around the galaxy 40k can't ever pick a good fight or force their foe to take a bad fight.
That's a planetary defense Ion Cannon, not the Heavy Turbo Lasers and Ion Cannons that are on an Imperial class. That's like using the guns of the Maginot line to define the ranges of the early Panzer tanks.
How do you know if the Hoth Ion Cannon is supposed to be any more or less powerful than a ship-mounted weapon?
A ship has concerns like movement, defense, and other things it has to take in to account. Planetary defenses ignore some of them so they can be improved.
Besides, just being in range doesn't prove an upper limit.
Canadian 5th wrote:
There have been rumors that movie, or even its trilogy, may be discounted due to its lack of positive reception. They are just rumors though, so they are probably not true and you should tell everyone you know. It also doesn't help that movie contradicts soooo much about what we've seen as canon from other movies that I have a hard time accepting its canonicity. Dark Forces carries more canon for me than that moldering pile of waste.
Disney won't retconn an entire movie trilogy due to butthurt fans on the internet.
Depends on if the stock of the IP goes down along with it.
Canadian 5th wrote:
So not anyone we're talking about.
The comment that spawned talk of orbits was that orbital ranges were low. I pointed out that they're actually fairly large if still small in terms of how vast space is.
My counter point is using our expectations and standards to make determinations in a universe that can literally park a mile long spaceship above a city as if it was at dock and fly fighters in space as if it had an atmosphere, is a little ridiculous.
Canadian 5th wrote:As I recall even R2-D2 shouldn't have been able to do it so a challenge seems an understatement.
Well, if Rebels are anything to go by, the Empire was really crap at updating their codes and systems from the Republic, and to our knowledge, R2's memory wasn't purged since it fled with Bail Organa.
Of course, that's assuming that manual punching of buttons wouldn't bring up the information or a Tech Priest/Marine couldn't pull it up, or just basic scans of the interior. If a ship could scan an interior of a Space Hulk, the Death Star would be downright orderly. It probably wouldn't even take that much brainpower to just push through it.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Ah, fandom numbers from biased sites. Soo accurate. Not to mention we have no idea how they'd interact with the Void Shields.
If they're so obviously biased, and Connor's numbers are no by any means biased, you should be able to disprove them by showing that either the math or the method is incorrect. Can you do this?
Evidence is in the shows, no matter what his numbers claim. Simply put, the power he implies just simply does not exist in the examples shown. I've read them a few times in SW and ST comparisons and they were laughable.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And it was more an example of maneuverability, which they could have easily avoided each other if they are as fast and nimble as you are suggesting.
Ships run aground when they can easily avoid it. This was a communications and navigational error and not an example showing they can't maneuver.
Ships run aground when they cannot see what is easily avoided IN TIME. This is why lighthouses exist, to give them warning and turn away before it becomes unavoidable.
This collision was not a communications error, it was a navigational error on the part of 3 different ships whose captains apparently could not do a simply job of avoiding each other. It's not like the one ISD followed the Falcon in its twisting path, even on a general vector. No, it ran in to two of its sister ships due to incompetence and lack of maneuverability.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Ah, so an ASSUMPTION... While I'll go as far as the weapon systems and basic normal space drives and such, this would be implying that the Warp is available in the Star Wars universe.
Why even make the assumption that on or both sides FTL systems don't work in a versus where that is literally required for them to fight one another?
How so? They can show up in a system and be stuck in that system until they can acquire the means from the other to move on, simple as that.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The Empire had independent reporters? That would be a first.
There were still independent systems even entire clusters like Hapes that were left alone. Unless entire systems didn't have their own press this alone proves the presence of independent reporters.
And they would be invited on to a military operation being performed by the Empire? There's another word for that which is far less kind, spies.
And you're assuming that any of these other nation-states had an independent press of their government. Hapes was a monarchy. The Cartel very much had a tight control of what media said about them in their space.
Canadian 5th wrote:
A galaxy spanning Imperium having as few ships as a nascent Rebellion? Riiiight.
That was never what I said... I said that the IoM would have trouble assembling their fleets due to the slow speed of warp travel and their unreliable FTL comms.
And I said that the IoM had a lot more ships and fleets than the Rebellion, which is what you were trying to counter.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Like they were at the Battle of Yavin and Endor, right? Keep in mind that the shield to keep in the atmosphere and ray shielding will not stop a rocket or a landing ship, and a blast door isn't as hard to get through as the hull armor.
Why wouldn't the hanger be covered by a proper shield when not launching or retrieving fighters?
Ray shielding would not prevent a ship from entering. That requires a different shielding system all together.
A better response would have been: In the first DS attack, only snub fighters were used, with no boarding shuttles. In the second DS attack, they relied on the shield projected from the planet, which the novelization claims to have had some capital ships and fighters bust themselves on when they realized it was a trap.
Of course, this still assumes that there is the physical shielding in place in such areas such as the planetary shield of Skariff.
Canadian 5th wrote:
So you want ME to prove YOUR argument? Interesting.
You've offered no evidence for your claims. So I'm going to do the same here..
You're the one claiming BFG ships were slow. I asked how you know that. You told me to figure it out. Your claim, please provide proof.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Actually, no. No turbo laser can crack the crust, they just melt and shatter what's on top of the crust. That was one of the reasons why Solo was so amazed to see the damage to Alderaan as it would take more than the whole fleet (outside DS-1) could accomplish.
The crust is the top layer of the planet's surface (leaving aside oceans and the atmosphere) so there isn't a layer over the crust to be merely melted and shattered. Unless you're taking crust cracking to mean blowing up a planet an ISD can indeed crack some crust with authority before melting a planet down into a many meters thick layer of molten slag.
I'm well aware of what a planet's crust is, which is why I was using it as an example. Some forms of Exterminatus crack the crust at a point causing a massive tectonic upheaval quite visible from high orbit to destroy all the life on the planet.
The most we've seen a force like an ISD do is destroy a city and open its ground up to the sky, and even that was Legends.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Okay, let's look at the references.
The first attempt was considered a failure, leaving only the KS-series as the only combat droids that the Empire used.
The Dark Trooper project being during the Galactic Civil War is a mobile video game. Those are often non-canon, and only had the cyborg Dark Troopers, not the total battle droid.
Converting them to a droid is listed in the Mandalorian, which is 9 ABY. and in Dawn of Rebellion RPG book, but doesn't give a page reference or a time stamp.
It doesn't provide any quotes as to when the decision to go pure droid again was made.
Palpatine started the program, he very well might have asked to have it sped up, or he may have returned to older technology or just press-ganged a bunch of citizens into the fight. The method is immaterial the fact is the Empire can crank out the material needed for war extremely quickly and wouldn't hesitate to use droids as required.
The argument about the Empire cranking out materiel was never in question. It was that they would turn to using droids under Palpatine's command. So far, we have one failed project which may not have even reached Palpatine's ears and another project which may have had no input from Palpatine whatsoever.
There are hints that the reason Palpatine was the way he was in many things is that he was amassing Dark Force power the same way that Darth Vitiate/Valkorion was by promoting death and terror. This was why the Republic used Clones instead of droids themselves. Droids do not have a presence in the Force, so would not support this. This is just speculation, however.
Any droid force would be purely local on a Moff's or Grand Admiral's authority and not on Palpatine's order with the information presently at hand.
Canadian 5th wrote: The only way to defend against energy weapons at this scale is to absorb the energy and radiate it out later. This isn't conducive to creating the massive fireballs you seem to think we should be seeing.
Fantastic, but this wasn't a blaster it was a missile. And it created a fireball.
Insectum7 wrote: So if the Death Star was so capable at engaging capital ships, why does it need to be protected by a whole fleet of star destroyers in Jedi?
To bait the trap... The whole point of everything at the DSII was to bait the rebels in and destroy them and in doing so turn Luke to the dark side. If there wasn't a fleet guarding it the rebels would have clued to something be wrong far sooner than they did.
Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
Also, if Fighters aren't seen as a threat that leaves room for a Thunderhawk to deliver troops.
Thunderhawks don't make warp jumps so how is the ship launching them supposed to get within the Thunderhawk's limited range to launch such a strike?
Speaking of distance, how do these ships ever get close at all? Warp jumps drop you out some distance from a star and it can take weeks of sublight travel to reach a destination. Without being able to match the speed at which a Star Wars force can move around the galaxy 40k can't ever pick a good fight or force their foe to take a bad fight.
Because the ships can still close to within Thunderhawk range anyways. If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
Insectum7 wrote: So if the Death Star was so capable at engaging capital ships, why does it need to be protected by a whole fleet of star destroyers in Jedi?
To bait the trap... The whole point of everything at the DSII was to bait the rebels in and destroy them and in doing so turn Luke to the dark side. If there wasn't a fleet guarding it the rebels would have clued to something be wrong far sooner than they did.
Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
The funny thing is that they were simply there to hold the Rebels in place. That is literally what Admiral Piett says when they are in position.
The purpose of going point blank range with the Star Destroyers was the fact that they had nothing else to lose, and they might get caught up in the cross fire.
Insectum7 wrote: If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
Which is funny because all of the Resistance's ships were in VISUAL range, and they weren't close enough for any of their guns to do any damage till they ran out of fuel and stopped in the middle of space.
10 light minutes is past the sun, which is a tiny disk to us here on earth. A capital ship at those sizes wouldn't even be a reflection confused as a star at that range.
Charistoph wrote: A ship has concerns like movement, defense, and other things it has to take in to account. Planetary defenses ignore some of them so they can be improved.
So prove that this is the case with the Hoth cannon. Go dive wookiepedia and tell me just how much stronger than a ship-mounted weapon it's supposed to be.
Besides, just being in range doesn't prove an upper limit.
yes, but the ICS does that. It's around 10 light minutes for a clone wars era ship.
Of course, that's assuming that manual punching of buttons wouldn't bring up the information or a Tech Priest/Marine couldn't pull it up, or just basic scans of the interior. If a ship could scan an interior of a Space Hulk, the Death Star would be downright orderly. It probably wouldn't even take that much brainpower to just push through it.
Push through to where exactly?
Evidence is in the shows, no matter what his numbers claim. Simply put, the power he implies just simply does not exist in the examples shown. I've read them a few times in SW and ST comparisons and they were laughable.
Connor is the one who did the 40k numbers I posted which you dismissed as biased. Did you even look at any of his work before dismissing it?
Ships run aground when they cannot see what is easily avoided IN TIME. This is why lighthouses exist, to give them warning and turn away before it becomes unavoidable.
Tell that to all the ships that run aground due to navigation errors in clear weather then...
How so? They can show up in a system and be stuck in that system until they can acquire the means from the other to move on, simple as that.
Okay. That's not how any versus debate ever works though and you haven't even shown that hyperspace shouldn't work in the 40k universe so...
And they would be invited on to a military operation being performed by the Empire? There's another word for that which is far less kind, spies.
They wouldn't need to be. If a freaky portal shows up or another galaxy drops into view suddenly people are going to notice.
And you're assuming that any of these other nation-states had an independent press of their government. Hapes was a monarchy. The Cartel very much had a tight control of what media said about them in their space.
It's free of the Empire's meddling.
And I said that the IoM had a lot more ships and fleets than the Rebellion, which is what you were trying to counter.
They can have all the ships they want if they can't move them anywhere useful they can't win a war. That's the point I'm making.
Ray shielding would not prevent a ship from entering. That requires a different shielding system all together.
Where did I mention a specific type of shielding?
A better response would have been: In the first DS attack, only snub fighters were used, with no boarding shuttles. In the second DS attack, they relied on the shield projected from the planet, which the novelization claims to have had some capital ships and fighters bust themselves on when they realized it was a trap.
You literally see them crash into it in the movie. No need for any reading of the novelization.
You're the one claiming BFG ships were slow. I asked how you know that. You told me to figure it out. Your claim, please provide proof.
BFG fleets take weeks to transit from where they enter a system to the planet they wish to reach. By Star Wars standards those ships are slow.
I'm well aware of what a planet's crust is, which is why I was using it as an example. Some forms of Exterminatus crack the crust at a point causing a massive tectonic upheaval quite visible from high orbit to destroy all the life on the planet.
The most we've seen a force like an ISD do is destroy a city and open its ground up to the sky, and even that was Legends.
Base Delta Zero isn't legends my friend.
The argument about the Empire cranking out materiel was never in question. It was that they would turn to using droids under Palpatine's command. So far, we have one failed project which may not have even reached Palpatine's ears and another project which may have had no input from Palpatine whatsoever.
There are hints that the reason Palpatine was the way he was in many things is that he was amassing Dark Force power the same way that Darth Vitiate/Valkorion was by promoting death and terror. This was why the Republic used Clones instead of droids themselves. Droids do not have a presence in the Force, so would not support this. This is just speculation, however.
Any droid force would be purely local on a Moff's or Grand Admiral's authority and not on Palpatine's order with the information presently at hand.
Prove it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
Because making the shot harder is always valuable. Also, did we ever see the DSII miss a shot?
Because the ships can still close to within Thunderhawk range anyways. If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
The same goes for any attack launched by the IoM fleet so... Also, Turbolaser speeds are, complicated, on-screen they always take between 1 and 3 seconds to hit in space regardless of distance. So it's likely they fly even faster at longer ranges, somehow. This is what the on-screen evidence gives us anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charistoph wrote: Which is funny because all of the Resistance's ships were in VISUAL range, and they weren't close enough for any of their guns to do any damage till they ran out of fuel and stopped in the middle of space.
That chase and the really dumb siege weapons that arc in space is why I really dislike that movie.
10 light minutes is past the sun, which is a tiny disk to us here on earth. A capital ship at those sizes wouldn't even be a reflection confused as a star at that range.
That speaks to pretty good sensors, doesn't it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote: Fantastic, but this wasn't a blaster it was a missile. And it created a fireball.
What was the warhead in it? What fired it? Did the warhead detonate properly? You don't know and thus can't disprove any examples of higher firepower by cherrypicking examples of lower firepower.
Charistoph wrote: A ship has concerns like movement, defense, and other things it has to take in to account. Planetary defenses ignore some of them so they can be improved.
So prove that this is the case with the Hoth cannon. Go dive wookiepedia and tell me just how much stronger than a ship-mounted weapon it's supposed to be.
It was powerful enough to knock out an Imperial class with a shot or two. I never saw a Star Destroyer do anything like that with a couple of shots. If they could, Return of the Jedi would have been a LOT shorter. Heck, even the Falcon's escape from Hoth would have been shorter.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Besides, just being in range doesn't prove an upper limit.
yes, but the ICS does that. It's around 10 light minutes for a clone wars era ship.
The bolt may reach that far, but it loses its effectiveness and its ability to hit is pitiful.
10 light minutes is looking just past the sun from our spot on Earth, and we couldn't see a Star Wars capital ship with the mark 1 eyeball to even confuse it as a star. And then I guess the First Order's weapons really degraded when they couldn't hurt another capital ship in visual range, but a Venator could beyond visible range.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Of course, that's assuming that manual punching of buttons wouldn't bring up the information or a Tech Priest/Marine couldn't pull it up, or just basic scans of the interior. If a ship could scan an interior of a Space Hulk, the Death Star would be downright orderly. It probably wouldn't even take that much brainpower to just push through it.
Push through to where exactly?
We're talking about boarding terminators and I specifically referenced Space Hulk. How much of a diagram do you need to understand that the purpose would be to plant charges to disable the station, at the least?
Canadian 5th wrote:
Evidence is in the shows, no matter what his numbers claim. Simply put, the power he implies just simply does not exist in the examples shown. I've read them a few times in SW and ST comparisons and they were laughable.
Connor is the one who did the 40k numbers I posted which you dismissed as biased. Did you even look at any of his work before dismissing it?
I've seen quite a few of them, and they do not match the canon that it is based on.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Ships run aground when they cannot see what is easily avoided IN TIME. This is why lighthouses exist, to give them warning and turn away before it becomes unavoidable.
Tell that to all the ships that run aground due to navigation errors in clear weather then...
Maybe you should take some lessons on nautical navigation first.
Canadian 5th wrote:
How so? They can show up in a system and be stuck in that system until they can acquire the means from the other to move on, simple as that.
Okay. That's not how any versus debate ever works though and you haven't even shown that hyperspace shouldn't work in the 40k universe so...
You haven't shown that hyperspace could work in the 40K universe. At present there is no evidence that it would.
And where is this rule about how versus debates are supposed to be done that laid down an assumption that all FTL would work normally in each other's universe? That wasn't established when this began.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And they would be invited on to a military operation being performed by the Empire? There's another word for that which is far less kind, spies.
They wouldn't need to be. If a freaky portal shows up or another galaxy drops into view suddenly people are going to notice.
A freaky portal about the size of a moon, let's say? Gee, that could be as hard to hide as a space station the size of a moon.
Now, another galaxy showing up right next door, that would be different, but that wasn't really an established criteria.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And you're assuming that any of these other nation-states had an independent press of their government. Hapes was a monarchy. The Cartel very much had a tight control of what media said about them in their space.
It's free of the Empire's meddling.
But not free of their own nor free to meddle in the Empire.
Canadian 5th wrote:
And I said that the IoM had a lot more ships and fleets than the Rebellion, which is what you were trying to counter.
They can have all the ships they want if they can't move them anywhere useful they can't win a war. That's the point I'm making.
They can move them somewhere useful, especially if there is only one system under contention.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Ray shielding would not prevent a ship from entering. That requires a different shielding system all together.
Where did I mention a specific type of shielding?
Because Star Wars specifies specific types of shielding, ever since the first movie.
Canadian 5th wrote:
A better response would have been: In the first DS attack, only snub fighters were used, with no boarding shuttles. In the second DS attack, they relied on the shield projected from the planet, which the novelization claims to have had some capital ships and fighters bust themselves on when they realized it was a trap.
You literally see them crash into it in the movie. No need for any reading of the novelization.
I never have, and I looked after the novelization.
Canadian 5th wrote:
You're the one claiming BFG ships were slow. I asked how you know that. You told me to figure it out. Your claim, please provide proof.
BFG fleets take weeks to transit from where they enter a system to the planet they wish to reach. By Star Wars standards those ships are slow.
Star Wars ships also drop out of hyperspace in orbit of another planet.
Canadian 5th wrote:
I'm well aware of what a planet's crust is, which is why I was using it as an example. Some forms of Exterminatus crack the crust at a point causing a massive tectonic upheaval quite visible from high orbit to destroy all the life on the planet.
The most we've seen a force like an ISD do is destroy a city and open its ground up to the sky, and even that was Legends.
Base Delta Zero isn't legends my friend.
Oh, which movie or tv show was that shown in again, then?
As a side note, Wookiepedia still only describes it as destroying the surface, not cracking the crust. At best, it might melt the upper crust.
Canadian 5th wrote:
The argument about the Empire cranking out materiel was never in question. It was that they would turn to using droids under Palpatine's command. So far, we have one failed project which may not have even reached Palpatine's ears and another project which may have had no input from Palpatine whatsoever.
There are hints that the reason Palpatine was the way he was in many things is that he was amassing Dark Force power the same way that Darth Vitiate/Valkorion was by promoting death and terror. This was why the Republic used Clones instead of droids themselves. Droids do not have a presence in the Force, so would not support this. This is just speculation, however.
Any droid force would be purely local on a Moff's or Grand Admiral's authority and not on Palpatine's order with the information presently at hand.
Prove it.
Prove which?
The only evidence we have of the Dark Troopers involved under Palpatine's command is a mobile game, and that was the cyborg model. The use of droids is outside the sphere of Palpatine's organization, so it would only be under local authority that any modifications were made, like a vastly superior tie fighter being built under Thrawn, or the Dark Troopers under Moff Gideon. If you have something else, please present it.
Canadian 5th wrote: 1) What was the warhead in it?
2) What fired it?
3) Did the warhead detonate properly?
4) You don't know and thus can't disprove any examples of higher firepower by cherrypicking examples of lower firepower.
1) According to Saxton something with the explosive force of a modest nuclear weapon.
2) Four seperate LAATs in two different scenes. Figures taken from Saxtons calculations for the LAATs weapons.
3) Detonations apeared consistent across all four visible impacts.
4) Video provided gives (to my knowledge) all examples of this weapon in all official films released up to the point that Saxton calculated his figures.
The point being that this scene is the only primary source. Saxton watched this and said 'boom, nuclear firepower baby', hence my original suggestion that his work be taken with a deathstar sized pinch of salt.
Direct from the book "100-kiloton explosion...". Incredible Cross Sections, AOTC, by Curtis Saxton, 2002, ISBN-10 : 0751337447
And with that I duck out of the thread. Once around the pitch chasing the goalposts was quite enough.
Insectum7 wrote: Ok, and if the Death Star was so deadly accurate why did the rebel fleet turn INTO the Star Destroyers for protection?
Because making the shot harder is always valuable. Also, did we ever see the DSII miss a shot?
No misses, but 10 km and several million km are pretty different animals when talking about accuracy.
Because the ships can still close to within Thunderhawk range anyways. If the supposed range of the Turbolaserwhatevers is light minutes, that also means the actual bolt takes minutes (or hours) to reach it's target, at which point the target could have simply changed course and dodged the attack by kilometers.
The same goes for any attack launched by the IoM fleet so... Also, Turbolaser speeds are, complicated, on-screen they always take between 1 and 3 seconds to hit in space regardless of distance. So it's likely they fly even faster at longer ranges, somehow. This is what the on-screen evidence gives us anyway.
All sources I find are that a blaster "bolt" is far slower than the speed of light. So I find the idea of pinpoint accuracy against an unpredictably moving target at astronomical distances to be pretty suspect. And the idea that they somehow go faster the further they have to travel. . . Ehhhh. . . Gonna need some better sourcing for that.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
That's what "scanners" are for Where are the big energy readings coming from? Let's go blow those up. While were there let's see if we can find anything else that might be important and blow that up as well. Marines do boarding raids on tyranid bioships... Not a lot of imperial standardisation there.
Canadian 5th wrote: 1) What was the warhead in it?
2) What fired it?
3) Did the warhead detonate properly?
4) You don't know and thus can't disprove any examples of higher firepower by cherrypicking examples of lower firepower.
1) According to Saxton something with the explosive force of a modest nuclear weapon.
2) Four seperate LAATs in two different scenes. Figures taken from Saxtons calculations for the LAATs weapons.
3) Detonations apeared consistent across all four visible impacts.
4) Video provided gives (to my knowledge) all examples of this weapon in all official films released up to the point that Saxton calculated his figures.
The point being that this scene is the only primary source. Saxton watched this and said 'boom, nuclear firepower baby', hence my original suggestion that his work be taken with a deathstar sized pinch of salt.
Direct from the book "100-kiloton explosion...". Incredible Cross Sections, AOTC, by Curtis Saxton, 2002, ISBN-10 : 0751337447
And with that I duck out of the thread. Once around the pitch chasing the goalposts was quite enough.
If you're talking about 100 kiloton weapons it helps to remember that the hiroshima bomb was only ~15 kilotons.
On the DS they could teleport in and literally be 30km linear distance away from anything critical with an even greater distance needing to be traveled to actually get there. The DS is not at all a typical operation for them.
That's what "scanners" are for Where are the big energy readings coming from? Let's go blow those up. While were there let's see if we can find anything else that might be important and blow that up as well. Marines do boarding raids on tyranid bioships... Not a lot of imperial standardisation there.
The Marines could also eat some brains to gather intel.
Aren't ISDs 1.6 Kilometers in length compared to the 5 or so kilometers for a Lunar Class Cruiser in most depictions of them. Ignoring the outliers Imperium ships should hilariously out mass their Star Wars counterparts until you end up at the outliers again.
Because an ISD is a capital ship for the Empire, it is a Battleship by role even though it is called a destroyer. It has Carrack Class cruisers for support, along with Arquitens class light cruisers, and their various light craft like Raiders and the like to handle star fighters. SSDs quite frankly have no real life counter part, save for sticking Yamato or Iowa into predreadnought battles.
The 40k Counter parts are significantly larger. A Cobra Class Destroyer is 1.2 kilometers long, and carries a set of torpedo tubes and macro cannons. Its very similar to a WW1 era Torpedo boat. Sword Frigates are about the size of a Star Destroyer, potentially more massive but really are counter parts to Carracks or Arquitens. I'd say that 40k's size advantage is staggering for these lower end craft. A Lunar Class cruiser about 5 kms in length is far larger than a Star Destroyer and is in the same weight class as a Lucrehulk or a Praetor 2 class Battlecruiser.
40k Battleships such as the retribution or the Emperor or a Space Marine Battlebarge are more akin to a Bellator Star Dreadnought in terms of size. Yet in roles the two are different, Battleship vs IRL Battlecruiser essentially.
Operating under the assumption that these guys engage each other even 40k's escorts will register as capital ships to Star Wars Admirals. That is something to take into consideration. A Space Marine Battlebarge to the vast majority of Star Wars fleets would be considered a super capital. I'd even argue that for some of the "frigate, cruiser and corvettes" in Star Wars 40k torpedoes would be unwieldly weaponry restricting them to use of macro weapons and lances. Boarding actions from the majority of 40k factions would be devastating against Empire Storm Troopers would be hard to beat off simply because star wars is a character driven narrative compared to 40ks Wargame base which means that outside fringe things like Dark Troopers or B3 Battledroids very few Star Wars troops are in the same weight class as Space Marines. 40k would dominate the enemy capital ships and outside of the largest super capitals star wars lacks the capacity to engage them on equal terms. Executor vs Gloriana is a bit of a toss up, simply because while I'm certain a Gloriana can take it in a fight, I'm uncertain if it would be a 1v1 battle.
Yet Star Wars has two undeniable advantages, production and speed. Star Wars can undeniably churn out more ships than 40k can, save for Tyranids and maybe orks. Those are outside the scope of this however. A few broadsides from a battlebarge should devastate the vast majority of Empire Ships if not simply destroy them. Assuming the tech is on a similar level which is essential for this discussion otherwise we run into a silly Lensman/Culture type stomp and where's the fun in that? I honestly think that the Empire would have to swarm Imperium battle groups with what amounts to an escort spam. It doesn't help that such vessels in the 40k size range have weapons aimed at killing ships roughly the same size as them.
The Deathstar being a super weapon will likely be a difficult target. Its clearly in the same weight class as the Ork Attack Moons from War of the Beast. Outside of World engines it is very much outside the norm for most 40k fleet actions save for assaults on space hulks. Unescorted the Death Star gets blown up and 40k ships are probably outside the scope of what the secondary batteries of that battlestation are equipped to fight. The Deathstar definitely spear any normal 40k ship with its super laser but it will probably find the majority of their fleet assets remarkably durable to its secondaries. Massed strikecraft and boarding actions would be required to kill it, I wouldn't be surprised if they just pulled a World Engine on it, ram it with a ship and then board. The Deathstar 2 was able to withstand the Executor crashing into it, according to a novelization, the Executor started to reverse out of that gash but was destroyed when the battlestation detonated.
Then again, in a boarding action containing Terminators and Space Marines is probably beyond the capabilities of Storm troopers. In addition, such actions would only be needed if one was assault Deathstars or SSDs
I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Matt Swain wrote: I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.
Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.
Matt Swain wrote: I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.
Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.
Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
Ok,l this is an image of how imperial warships load torpedoes.
Yep, masses of slave laborers pulling on chains. What if that area gets a hull hit and decompresses? Slaves all die, no way to load torpedoes.
Here's another image of imperial ships inner workings.
Huge machines powered by masses of slaves essentially on a massive treadmill, powering it kinda like masses of gerbils on one huge gerbil wheel.
Honestly the star wars ships are, i hate to say, far more realistic and plausible than imperial ships. You using massed human slave muscle power for main systems? How much food does it take to keep a slave alive and strong enough to work? All that food storage and whatever recycling is space not going to more powerful, effective systems. How much food do thousands of slaves eat a day? How much air has to be regenerated for that large a crew? What happens if you get multiple hull breaches and your loincloth wearing slaves all suffocate?
Honestly, 40k ships are even more implausible than star wars ships that at least use advanced technology, not scrolls, chanting servitors, masses of slaves pulling chains and walking on treadmills, etc.
Insectum7 wrote: I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
Brother Arcadius, Black Templar Crusader, walks up, parrying a last desperate stock blow and decapitating a storm trooper with his chainsword. He removes his helmet and then pulls out the stormtrooper's head from the rolling helmet. He then tears in to the scalp with his enhanced teeth. After some chewing, he spits out the skull and hair.
Brother Tempestus walks up and says, "Well brother?"
Arcadius responds, "This brainwashed mess knows nothing, but he thinks a technician down the hall should know, Sword Brother."
Tempestus declares, "Very well, let us proceed and cleanse this hall and procure this technician."
Arcadius replaces his helmet, while the rest of the squad pounds down the hall, pistols and swords roaring.
Ok,l this is an image of how imperial warships load torpedoes.
Yep, masses of slave laborers pulling on chains. What if that area gets a hull hit and decompresses? Slaves all die, no way to load torpedoes.
Here's another image of imperial ships inner workings.
Huge machines powered by masses of slaves essentially on a massive treadmill, powering it kinda like masses of gerbils on one huge gerbil wheel.
Honestly the star wars ships are, i hate to say, far more realistic and plausible than imperial ships. You using massed human slave muscle power for main systems? How much food does it take to keep a slave alive and strong enough to work? All that food storage and whatever recycling is space not going to more powerful, effective systems. How much food do thousands of slaves eat a day? How much air has to be regenerated for that large a crew? What happens if you get multiple hull breaches and your loincloth wearing slaves all suffocate?
Honestly, 40k ships are even more implausible than star wars ships that at least use advanced technology, not scrolls, chanting servitors, masses of slaves pulling chains and walking on treadmills, etc.
^Such is the glorious insanity of 40K. May it remain insane forever.
Matt Swain wrote: I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.
Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.
Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
I agree with you on the Terminator part, but I don't understand why that point about shields is relevant. Both sides use plasma weapons. Star Weapons as described as plasma weapons or pulse weapons by 40k standards on that note . Or we could just assert that shield works against each other. Otherwise discussion becomes pointless. Which is something I never got about these debates. Why bother saying nope your weapons don't work or Culture smash or whatever. No debate, no fun.
The two settings being comparable and having a discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other is what this debate should be about, not biggatons or whatever.
handwaving their tech simply being incompatible leaves little room for discussion, as does silly outliers like 10 light minute range because unless I'm wrong are either side of this current debate ever depicted engaging at such range?
Insectum7 wrote: I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
Brother Arcadius, Black Templar Crusader, walks up, parrying a last desperate stock blow and decapitating a storm trooper with his chainsword. He removes his helmet and then pulls out the stormtrooper's head from the rolling helmet. He then tears in to the scalp with his enhanced teeth. After some chewing, he spits out the skull and hair.
Brother Tempestus walks up and says, "Well brother?"
Arcadius responds, "This brainwashed mess knows nothing, but he thinks a technician down the hall should know, Sword Brother."
Tempestus declares, "Very well, let us proceed and cleanse this hall and procure this technician."
Arcadius replaces his helmet, while the rest of the squad pounds down the hall, pistols and swords roaring.
+1 Although you forgot the other Storm Trooper quivering in the corner and witnessing it all in total horror.
Matt Swain wrote: Ok,l this is an image of how imperial warships load torpedoes.
Yep, masses of slave laborers pulling on chains. What if that area gets a hull hit and decompresses? Slaves all die, no way to load torpedoes.
Here's another image of imperial ships inner workings.
Huge machines powered by masses of slaves essentially on a massive treadmill, powering it kinda like masses of gerbils on one huge gerbil wheel.
Honestly the star wars ships are, i hate to say, far more realistic and plausible than imperial ships. You using massed human slave muscle power for main systems? How much food does it take to keep a slave alive and strong enough to work? All that food storage and whatever recycling is space not going to more powerful, effective systems. How much food do thousands of slaves eat a day? How much air has to be regenerated for that large a crew? What happens if you get multiple hull breaches and your loincloth wearing slaves all suffocate?
Honestly, 40k ships are even more implausible than star wars ships that at least use advanced technology, not scrolls, chanting servitors, masses of slaves pulling chains and walking on treadmills, etc.
That is a good point, a vulnerability in 40k ships, what does the tonnage excess mean if they don't use it efficiently. I know some 40k ships have auto loaders for their systems and some use as you described human labor to load their weapons. Thus if the Lunar class using those methods has gross inefficiencies despite its tonnage is it more comparable to a Allegiant class Battle Cruiser ( a 2.2 KM long ISD variant) as opposed to a Praetor 2?
Matt Swain wrote: I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.
Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.
Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
I agree with you on the Terminator part, but I don't understand why that point about shields is relevant. Both sides use plasma weapons. Star Weapons as described as plasma weapons or pulse weapons by 40k standards on that note . Or we could just assert that shield works against each other. Otherwise discussion becomes pointless. Which is something I never got about these debates. Why bother saying nope your weapons don't work or Culture smash or whatever. No debate, no fun.
The two settings being comparable and having a discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other is what this debate should be about, not biggatons or whatever.
handwaving their tech simply being incompatible leaves little room for discussion, as does silly outliers like 10 light minute range because unless I'm wrong are either side of this current debate ever depicted engaging at such range?
Right, but there might be something as simple as the amount of energy used/spent and possibly being an order of magnatude off. The point is that tonnage is just not a very good metric.
Star Wars also has this problem where the primary sources (the movies) are themselves pretty inconsistent. 40K, despite being weirder, seems to be more consistent in it's primary source of content, which is the game/codexes. In SW you have goofy things like space "bombers" that "drop" bombs in 0g ffs. Or the super-duper-ultra Death-planet-Star thing that shoots lasers as multiple solar systems, but they're all visible from one of the planets or whatever the **** happened in The Force Awakens. Even with the Warp and Daemons 40K seems to handle it's own logic more consistently.
Matt Swain wrote: I don't think that the size means a damn thing in fleet battles between 40k ships and ships in star wars to be honest.
Imagine a WW1 or even a ww2 batttleship against a modern destroyer. Hell, make it the musashi or yamato, the biggest battleships ever built.
Sure the musashi may outweight rh modern derstroyer by a factor of several times, maybe over 10 times.
The musashi had cannons with unguided shells and a range of like 24 miles.
The modern destroyer has missiles with a range of maybe a hundred miles or so, plus likely a UAV or two for over the horizon reconnaissance and targeting.
Result, the musashi eats antishipping missiles and dies before the destroyer is even in range of its guns.
Save for the fact that 40k and Star Wars ships fight along similar lines of engagement, both mirror Dreadnought era combat with a dash of WW2 fighter usage, but with a primary focus on the ships themselves depending on which one you are reading about. As opposed to a WW2 Fast Battleship against Kirov for instance.
Weight class matters when they engage in similar fashions.
Even "engaging in similar fashion" isn't enough to use tonnage when the technology could be vastly different. All it would take is something so simple as one factions shields not working against another factions projectiles, and tonnage basically disappears as a factor. It's rather a fruitless exercise really, because details around interactability of some of the major technologies are are unknown.
I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
I agree with you on the Terminator part, but I don't understand why that point about shields is relevant. Both sides use plasma weapons. Star Weapons as described as plasma weapons or pulse weapons by 40k standards on that note . Or we could just assert that shield works against each other. Otherwise discussion becomes pointless. Which is something I never got about these debates. Why bother saying nope your weapons don't work or Culture smash or whatever. No debate, no fun.
The two settings being comparable and having a discussion regarding their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other is what this debate should be about, not biggatons or whatever.
handwaving their tech simply being incompatible leaves little room for discussion, as does silly outliers like 10 light minute range because unless I'm wrong are either side of this current debate ever depicted engaging at such range?
Right, but there might be something as simple as the amount of energy used/spent and possibly being an order of magnatude off. The point is that tonnage is just not a very good metric.
Star Wars also has this problem where the primary sources (the movies) are themselves pretty inconsistent. 40K, despite being weirder, seems to be more consistent in it's primary source of content, which is the game/codexes. In SW you have goofy things like space "bombers" that "drop" bombs in 0g ffs. Or the super-duper-ultra Death-planet-Star thing that shoots lasers as multiple solar systems, but they're all visible from one of the planets or whatever the **** happened in The Force Awakens. Even with the Warp and Daemons 40K seems to handle it's own logic more consistently.
With you on the bomber 110%, friend. So much wrong with that i don't even know where to begin...
If you've having a huge load of bombs and a small ship why not make the bombs on the front of the ship, have the ship basically accelerate it towards the target, the separate the bomb rack and have it basically fragment and scatted the bombs over the target?
Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened. Kind of like how superman returns treated the last two superman movies before it.
See, the 40k universe only works because we accept the premise of 'forget the power of technology, the promise of science' because basically the warp has seeped into the material universe and royally kicked conventional reality, science, technology, etc to the curb. Utterly insane things work because the chaos gods and the warp like insanity and madness, so a fanatically insane power can win on the premise of faith and making people toil and suffer en masse because the powers of the warp gwt off on that and affect reality in its favor
Sure, star wars has the force, and in the ghawdawful last movie we saw one force user shut down an entire fleet of ships until he was killed by a woman with laser sword. Both have wild card plot device powers, the force or the warp, that make the universe work in ways that let one kid who'se never been in a fighter before succeed at blowing up a massive battlestation where experienced pilots failed and a bunch of guys screaming 'for da emprah!" can rush at an emplaced gunline with melee weapons and take it down, with massive casualties because the warp gets off on lots of dying and stuff.
In WW1 the french army had a ridiculous and idiotic concept called "elan", which more or less said that if a lot iof men died tryiong to do something, it gave the cause they died for a "moral force' that would give their side victory. I remember hearing about that on a historical show about WW1. The french military apparently believed that if enough people died for victory, some 'moral force' would energize the army and give it victory because of their sacrifice.
The french abandoned this after WW1 and it's clear failures therein.
Well, in 40k that kind of thing actually does work. So the 40k universe has premises that make it totally separate from other universes.
Really asking who would win between 40k and almost any other universe is like asking "who would win in a fight between a great white shark and a grizzly bear?" Well, if you drop the bear in the ocean, the shark wins. if you drop the shark in a forest the bear wins.
if you drop star wars ships in the 40k universe than yeah, they lose as 'the warp' infects their ships, turns their floor droids, astromech droids, etc, into psychotic murder machines, their minds get headfethed by chaos gods and daemons, hyperjumps let horrors of the warp into the ships, etc.
If you drop 40k ships in the star wars universe, they get used for target practice as there's no astronavicom to guide them, they have no astra telepathica to send them information, etc. Meanwhile tie fighters and xwings buzz around them, avoiding their huge guns easily while pecking them to death.
Insectum7 wrote: I just like the idea of Terminators mowing down Storm Troopers and eating their brains, and how being members of the Disney franchise, SW characters would be utterly appalled at the level of gore that Space Marines are comfortable with. A Chainsword is the glorious antithesis of "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
Brother Arcadius, Black Templar Crusader, walks up, parrying a last desperate stock blow and decapitating a storm trooper with his chainsword. He removes his helmet and then pulls out the stormtrooper's head from the rolling helmet. He then tears in to the scalp with his enhanced teeth. After some chewing, he spits out the skull and hair.
Brother Tempestus walks up and says, "Well brother?"
Arcadius responds, "This brainwashed mess knows nothing, but he thinks a technician down the hall should know, Sword Brother."
Tempestus declares, "Very well, let us proceed and cleanse this hall and procure this technician."
Arcadius replaces his helmet, while the rest of the squad pounds down the hall, pistols and swords roaring.
+1 Although you forgot the other Storm Trooper quivering in the corner and witnessing it all in total horror.
The dead don't quiver in horror.
I have to admit, I was tempted to add something like that in.
Scene 2:
Chief Engineer Bentamijn Ojvur scrambled to scramble the console he was working on as he heard more booming out the hallway. Heavy stomps, loud cracks of ballistics, and explosives mixed with the discharges of blaster carbines punctuated his work.
His staff's own hands were trembling as they struggled to lock down their own stations. Tech Iam Boond jumped as white armored Troopers scrambled and shut the door, sealing it. The booming of ballistics stopped, but the heavy tromp of their power armor kept getting louder.
Iam screamed, "This is crazy! Why are they even hear? How did they get here?!"
"Silence!", Bentamijn barked. "We can't have them thinking we're in here!"
A high-pitched whine started screaming on the other side of the door, causing the Troopers to turn back. Each one nervously clutching their carbines to their chest. The whine deepened, then sparks flew out on the side of the door. What looked to be a primitive, but powerful saw poked through and then began making its way around the edges.
Iam noticed the Troopers instantly drop their carbines in to firing position, but their legs trembled. If Stormtroopers are terrified of these guys, what does that mean for us?, penetrated his thoughts as he felt something warm his trousers.
With a sudden boom and crash, the wall fell inward, crushing a poorly placed Trooper. All the techs turned to face the door along with the engineer. More booms overwhelmed the station, causing Iam's ears to ring to silence. With each boom, a Stormtrooper fell, his torso exploding. Giant hulks which reminded Iam of the stories of the Dark Trooper project stomped in to the room. Black and forboding, with red shoulders and white cloth covering the middle. Each step felt through the floor in to his bones.
The giants scanned the room with twin-barreled monstrosities following the scan. The giants lowered their weapons with one sheathing a sword. The one with the sword then reached up and removed his helmet. He looked human, but features taken on a giant's form! The unmasked giant then reached to Engineer Ojvur and grabbed him by the neck. Iam felt his frame shake as he saw Bentamijn's mouth yammering as he was lifted up. The giant then bit down on the Engineers head. A swift jerk scalped the engineer, and Iam could finally hear something besides the ringing and the booms as he heard his own voice start gibbering. The gibbering somehow got louder as the giant bit deeper in to the Engineer's head.
A movement to the right of his eye caused him to turn as he sees another giant with his mask off reaching for him. A scream in his own voice was the last thing he heard as the massive glove with that chainsaw engulfed him.
Or 40k troops board an imperial ship and begin causing trouble, so thee captain orders the sections to turn up their artifical gravity several times.
Heavy combat droids with large accurate blaster weapons go rolling it and start shooting marines who are suddenly weighing several times their usual weight. bolters flare off their shields.
Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.
For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.
Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.
For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.
See, i believe that 40k and star wars share a common theme, in that most people are dead men walking and the story revolves around a few super characters.
the population of Alderaan? Exist to be killed to establish the evil of the empire and the danger. The majority of the pilots sent to fight the deathstar at yavin? Dead men flying. 5 worlds get wiped jsut for the plot to advance.
luke, leia, chewie, the droids are the only characters that matter and live.
40k's the same. Billions die, a few supercharacters become pivotal characters. Guilleman, Thrakka, Abbadon, Usakar Creed, Sly marbo, etc.
Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.
For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.
See, i believe that 40k and star wars share a common theme, in that most people are dead men walking and the story revolves around a few super characters.
the population of Alderaan? Exist to be killed to establish the evil of the empire and the danger. The majority of the pilots sent to fight the deathstar at yavin? Dead men flying. 5 worlds get wiped jsut for the plot to advance.
luke, leia, chewie, the droids are the only characters that matter and live.
40k's the same. Billions die, a few supercharacters become pivotal characters. Guilleman, Thrakka, Abbadon, Usakar Creed, Sly marbo, etc.
BTW you were right, the third one wasrancid!
I mean, the startrack redshirts would like a word with you regarding the dead man walking point. To where it's become a trope. Most scifi has a bit of an issue with that. "We want the universe to be super dangerous. But a handful of people can wander around a battlefield like it's a light summer rain."
Do nerds ever tire of saying how much X episode of Star Wars sucks?
Also, the last 3? pages of this thread haven't added anything. You don't have to accept or disprove internet rando #3847625's opinion. Make your point and move on.
I highly doubt any post on any forum has ever changed an opinion.
My contention:
Star Wars ships are comparable to BFG ships. Even if bigger and "more powerful" 40k ships have such incredible inefficiencies that the smaller SW ships are not that much worse.
Just as Star Trek weapons are variable, so are a lot of Star Wars weapons. We already know that blasters can fire a stun blast since that is how storm troopers get Leia.
Perhaps, as a standard feature on Star Wars blasters they have a "power setting" where the safety is on real world firearms. That will give you Safe, Stun, Low Power and High Power? This could explain how "main characters" get little flesh wounds from carbine/rifles (Stormtroopers are using low power?) and yet Heroes can blow fist sized holes through both sides of a Stormtrooper in armor?
This is really the only way I can see blasters zapping characters and only singing their clothes while in other scenes they are blowing off chunks of walls or causing explosions. Alternately, that scene where Leia got zapped there were two shots, with identical effects, but neither damaged the wall...thus it could be that the blast hit the wall, and she just got a portion of the blast and not the whole thing.
Honestly, I'm with the people who say the sequels need to be buried in an unmarked grave at midnight on a new moon. I mean they need to be treated like movies that never happened.
Sadly, yeah. I saw the first one, liked it alright but was wary of what it meant. Saw Rogue One and was bored, and didn't see any more SW in the theatre. Years later I watched the second of the trilogy sequels and gave up on it. Never saw the third. I feel bad for the parties involved.
For the rest of it, like the original trilogy, the weapons tech seems inconsistent and not vey impressive in comparison to 40K, It seems to primarily be "plasma bolt" focused and the engagement ranges don't appear to be very big. I find it hard to square the circle between the movies and what's in various "techincal manuals". SW is a movie setting built to tell the story of a particular set of characters and the setting takes a hefty back seat to the script. 40K on the other hand is built specifically as a setting for players to interact in, and seems to have a more stable foundation because of the intended method of engagement.
See, i believe that 40k and star wars share a common theme, in that most people are dead men walking and the story revolves around a few super characters.
the population of Alderaan? Exist to be killed to establish the evil of the empire and the danger. The majority of the pilots sent to fight the deathstar at yavin? Dead men flying. 5 worlds get wiped jsut for the plot to advance.
luke, leia, chewie, the droids are the only characters that matter and live.
40k's the same. Billions die, a few supercharacters become pivotal characters. Guilleman, Thrakka, Abbadon, Usakar Creed, Sly marbo, etc.
BTW you were right, the third one wasrancid!
I mean, the startrack redshirts would like a word with you regarding the dead man walking point. To where it's become a trope. Most scifi has a bit of an issue with that. "We want the universe to be super dangerous. But a handful of people can wander around a battlefield like it's a light summer rain."
Yeah, as i said, 40k and trek have immortal characters the story revolves around types. I think 40k overdoes it a bit more than most universes, practically to the level of "The general's coffee was two degrees centigrade below what he consider acceptable, execute the entire kitchen staff and their nearest kin!" or "Someone in the crowd as we marched into the city shouted "Feth the emperor!" so we summarily executed the entire population of 20 million to be sure we got the heretic."
Yeah, as i said, 40k and trek have immortal characters the story revolves around types. I think 40k overdoes it a bit more than most universes, practically to the level of "The general's coffee was two degrees centigrade below what he consider acceptable, execute the entire kitchen staff and their nearest kin!" or "Someone in the crowd as we marched into the city shouted "Feth the emperor!" so we summarily executed the entire population of 20 million to be sure we got the heretic."
I want to push back on that and say that it's rarely the named characters that do that stuff. I'd argue that the subject of those stories is rather not any individual character but more the "character" of the setting itself. Like, the Imperium IS the character. The "Imperial mentality", if that makes sense.
I suppose to put a more obscure one in the original spirit of the thread, might I propose a Hierarchy Grunt from Universe at War?
Spoiler:
(and yes, this is where my avatar came from)
Can watch an example of Grunts in action here to get a better idea of how they behave in battle. They feel similar to Marines as genetically engineered heavy infantry, though in their home faction they fulfill more of a cannon fodder role (relatively cheap for their stats, generally fielded in large numbers).
Physical Traits: Grunts wear relatively heavy armor made from a thermal-resistant substance (same material used to create the larger Hierarchy walkers - can survive the forces of atmospheric reentry without compromising integrity) and are physically fairly tough (slightly less health than a light vehicle in their home game). They are described as being genetically modified to survive in virtually any environment, but they also appear to have other modifications compared to the baseline species (all species shown in-game share the same basic build with 3 digits per limb, but Grunts have sharpened claws and a more weathered, leathery skin). Lastly, all Hierarchy species regenerate while exposed to radiation, which the Hierarchy army as a whole exploits through heavy use of indiscriminate radiation weapons.
From a vs perspective, the Grunt's armor doesn't cover as much as the Space Marine's power armor (leaves limbs exposed) and they don't have the mechanically augmented strength. That being said, the base strength and, to a lesser extent, toughness of a Grunt probably exceeds a base Marine slightly, so I think they would still be fairly even in this regard (slight edge to Marine unless radiation is involved).
Offence: The main weapon carried by a Grunt fires a burst of 5 plasma bolts in a cone pattern. The bolts themselves are fairly damaging and can travel a fair distance but the effective range for maximum damage is somewhat close due to the spread. The weapon can be upgraded so its plasma shots leave a radioactive residue on targets (Irradiated Shots) and/or use more powerful bolts that explode on impact (Quantum Ordnance). Grunts also tend to carry plasma grenades that are used to target structures and vehicles. The grenades don't detonate, but rather leave a burning cloud of plasma on impact. Once in melee range, Grunts use their primary weapon like a club to knock opponents back (usually followed up with a point-blank blast).
I think Grunts would have a slight edge with their weapon as the base version would probably compare to Pulse Blaster and the upgraded versions would edge towards imperial plasma. The main hurdle would be getting close enough to hit with more than 1-2 bolts without getting kitted to death (Grunts are somewhat slow moving, presumably due to the weight of their gun and armor).
BlackoCatto wrote: A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.
Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.
BlackoCatto wrote: A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.
Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.
Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.
BlackoCatto wrote: A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.
Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.
Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.
I'm not aware of any Mobile Suit the size of a Dreadnought, as the GunTank would still tower over that. Of course, there's the SD Gundam, so I guess those would have trouble versus the Astartes.
While some of the small arms may seem nasty, they really aren't on well armored platforms or have the centuries of training the average Astartes would have. Most of the armor that they deal with is pretty heavy, but none but the SD Gundam have anything close to an Astartes Power Armor.
BlackoCatto wrote: A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.
Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.
Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.
I'm not aware of any Mobile Suit the size of a Dreadnought, as the GunTank would still tower over that. Of course, there's the SD Gundam, so I guess those would have trouble versus the Astartes.
While some of the small arms may seem nasty, they really aren't on well armored platforms or have the centuries of training the average Astartes would have. Most of the armor that they deal with is pretty heavy, but none but the SD Gundam have anything close to an Astartes Power Armor.
So a 100mm standard issue machine gun on a GM, not even a Gundam, a GM, isnt enough to kill a Space Marine. That is rubbish. As well a Gundam or Mobile Suit in general does have smaller prototypes. Furthermore Gundams are well armored, but the things that get shot at it typically are things meant to kill other Gundams and Mobile Suits anyway.
BlackoCatto wrote: A Gundam could probably, but then again this whole thread is a spank fest.
Heh, true, but like most Battlemechs, a Mobile Suit is closer to a Knight than an Infantrymen. I think most of the troopers we see in Gundam would fair no better than the average Guardsmen. If a New Type trained for close combat, they might give an Astartes trouble like one of the Assassins.
Well it also depends, after awhile on Gundam, there are Mobile suits everywhere, not to mention development of small mobile suits as well. Not to mention this is a society that has some really hard hitting stuff and it is barely in th 2100. If you are going to do comparisons correctly you must level the playing field, but then again threads like this never do that.
I'm not aware of any Mobile Suit the size of a Dreadnought, as the GunTank would still tower over that. Of course, there's the SD Gundam, so I guess those would have trouble versus the Astartes.
While some of the small arms may seem nasty, they really aren't on well armored platforms or have the centuries of training the average Astartes would have. Most of the armor that they deal with is pretty heavy, but none but the SD Gundam have anything close to an Astartes Power Armor.
So a 100mm standard issue machine gun on a GM, not even a Gundam, a GM, isnt enough to kill a Space Marine. That is rubbish. As well a Gundam or Mobile Suit in general does have smaller prototypes. Furthermore Gundams are well armored, but the things that get shot at it typically are things meant to kill other Gundams and Mobile Suits anyway.
Ah, you think when I said, "Trooper", I was speaking of a Mobile Suit like the Leo, Zaku, or GM? No, I meant the basic infantry trooper without a Mobile Suit, Mobile Armor, or tank. I thought that would be obvious when comparing Mobile Suits to Knights.
Also, "Small arms" is a term used by infantrymen in their regular work, like a Lasgun or Bolter. The 100mm and 120mm used by the Zaku and Leo would not be classified as "small arms".
You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?
You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.
Matt Swain wrote: You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?
You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.
Just keep strolling while the stormtroopers continue to miss? All the gun in the world is not going to help with their accuracy.
Matt Swain wrote: You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?
You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.
That backpack is not a direct power system for the rifle, though. The rifle is independent. I always saw that backpack as the gear they lug around in case they are caught out of the comforts of the base. If there is any dependency, it is just recharging the rifle's power pack.
Meanwhile, Terminators with a personal shield and twin-barrelled carbine that they can wield as a pistol with the accuracy of a rifle would probably fare pretty well.
Matt Swain wrote: You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?
You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.
Shoot them. They look like they're wearing the same plastic armor that regular Storm Troopers are wearing.
Matt Swain wrote: Yeah, stormtroopers on board a ship they knew couldn't possibly lay in wait, set up firepoints, ambush strangers clumping along...
True, but Space Marines, and Terminators in particular, are trained to deal with boarding in such uncomfortable terrain, and the average Tactical usually has at least a century of experience of dealing with such encounters in a variety of environments. The Stormtrooper, much less.
Matt Swain wrote: I'm sure the empire has comparable/equally effective stuff.
Okay, aside from the E-Web (which doesn't even match those examples, being a crew-served, tripod-mounted weapon), provide an example of one that could be expected on a Star Destroyer or Death Star in sufficient numbers to deal with a company of Space Marines. Unless they've recently raided Kashyyyk or some nameless gun runners den, I doubt it.
I could present the case of a Death Watch squad captain carrying a Calldius' Phase Sword, but that's not going to be a standard equipment one could expect the units to have.
Spinning off from another thread where I reckoned an Astartes could make short work of a Cyberdyne Systems T-800 Model 101.
By all means use that as a jumping off point, but please do allow me first to set the random parameters to help frame the discussion.
1. The Marine is a ‘basic’ Marine. That means Bolt Rifle, Power Armour and Combat Blade. Plus frag, krak and if they come with them, Bolt Pistol (don’t have the current Codex I’m afraid).
2. The Other is similarly equipped. For instance, a Predator would have the same gear as the one from Predator. Blades, targetter, plasma caster etc. The Cyberdyne Systems T-800 Model 101 would have its Phased Plasma Rifle In The 40 Watt Range, and so on and so forth.
3. Because reasons, this is a straight one-on-one fight.
4. Because it’s their job, the Astartes is the invader, meaning The Other will have the home field advantage, in that it’s in its element.
5. Your argument must be based in some form of canon. For instance, and to continue the theme, the Dark Horse Predator, Terminator and Alien comics would be allowed - but fan theory or fan fiction is not. That’s not to dunk of fan stuff, it’s just to prevent hand-wavium wins for either side.
6. If you disagree with someone’s input, come with input of your own!
Right.......
SciFi vs Astartes.
Starfleet Engineer vs. Tech Priest.
It's just a flogging. The Tech Priest loses, while the Starfleet Engineer warps home on his new warp-capable Toboggan sipping a nice cup of Raktajino from his jerry-rigged Replicator.
^Haha. Funny matchup. There is a good story where a tech priest jerry-rigs a stasis field generator to trap a C'tan. That's pretty good. Starfleet has the bona-fide scientific method and a killer tech base going for them though, lol.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Haha. Funny matchup. There is a good story where a tech priest jerry-rigs a stasis field generator to trap a C'tan. That's pretty good. Starfleet has the bona-fide scientific method and a killer tech base going for them though, lol.
"Give me one Chief O'Brien or failing that, give me all of Mars."
Matt Swain wrote: You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?
You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.
Depends. Are the Termies the "Heroes" of this story? If so, nothing much will happen to them.
Don't Star Wars ships have "ray shields" that can trap boarders...like how they trapped Obi-Wan and Anakin?
The first time you see Storm Troopers is when they board Leia's ship in A New Hope. They did a good job, explosive breach, cleared the threshold, good accuracy...They only suck when required by plot.
Finally, a question for 40K and Teleporters...can you do a blind teleport (like Star Trek), or do you need a teleport beacon?
slade the sniper wrote: Don't Star Wars ships have "ray shields" that can trap boarders...like how they trapped Obi-Wan and Anakin?
No guarantee that they would be installed in such a trapping ability on any Imperial ship. It is possible, but we haven't seen any indication of it. Also no idea if it would affect a fully enclosed Astartes, either, as ray shields don't seem to have much affect against hardened objects like missiles or ships. A helmetless Sergeant may get a fairly nasty sunburn on his face, though.
slade the sniper wrote: The first time you see Storm Troopers is when they board Leia's ship in A New Hope. They did a good job, explosive breach, cleared the threshold, good accuracy...They only suck when required by plot.
True. Unfortunately, all we see them go against from the Death Star on is plot-armored characters. They captured the ground team on Endor through shear force of numbers and armor support.
The unfortunate counter-point is that Astartes tend to do just as well, if not better. Of course, their disadvantage would be that they couldn't fit as many Astartes in a hallway as the stormtroopers can. Those bases get pretty bulky, especially with Terminators.
slade the sniper wrote: Finally, a question for 40K and Teleporters...can you do a blind teleport (like Star Trek), or do you need a teleport beacon?
I don't think teleport beacons are used to teleport on to Space Hulks, but I could be wrong. It's been a LONG time since I looked at that aspect of the lore (think original PC game).
Blind teleporting is possible, otherwise how would they use it to board enemy ships. A teleport homer just makes it more reliable or helps it beam through more material.
And it’s the teleporting that would prove a problem. Because you’ve no idea where the enemy are going to board. It could be a direct, accurate wombocombo Bridge and main Reactor Strike.
Gut both of those, and your foe is stuffed. Minimal power, controls trashed (mostly as a side effect of hosing the crew and pit area with Bolter fire).
In return? I don’t see SW having the required capacity to board a 40K ship, which have crews into the tens of thousands.
ISD crew from Wookieepedia
Crew requirements
Imperial I-class Star Destroyers had over 37,000 crew on board— 9,235 officers and 27,850 enlisted personnel. The complement of 9,700 stormtroopers added to a total of 46,785 crew and passengers.
Imperial Cobra Class Destroyer (their smallest warship class)
Crew - 15,000 crew, approximate.
So against the smallest ship, sure. If you can conduct a significant boarding action. With no teleporters, you’re down to shuttle and other specialised craft. Those need to run the gauntlet of point defence.
Bigger stuff, ships of the line and that? No chance. At all.
There’s also the difference in shield tech. Direct comparison is of course impossible. But see shields in Star Wars acting as a barrier, which can take a beating before collapsing.
Void Shields? They’re pumping the energy hitting them into the Warp. They’re also multi-layered, so it’s the devil’s work to collapse them all, and keep them collapsed. Because when a Void Shield drops, it’s the generator cutting out, like a fuse going. The chance of the generator itself being physically damaged is minimised by design - unless you pushed your shields beyond safe operation.
Now....Star Wars shields. We see some which relatively slow moving craft are able to penetrate (RotJ, TlJ) and somewhich deny energy and ships (Rogue One, Rebels, Clone Wars). Those all have planetside generators. We’re also shown in RoS that some shields can’t operate in certain atmospheres. Emphasis for clarity, as we can’t draw specific conclusions.
We also see in TLJ that even high end, advanced Turbolasers lose oomph over range. All they could do was keep lobbing shots to force the fleeing Raddus to expend energy maintaining the shields. That’s not over a massive range either - and as established, 40K fleets operate at stupendous range.
So even if a SW does have the firepower to strip void shields, they need to get in really, really close to do so - and survive getting in that close in the first place. Which is.....not guaranteed.
Of course, as a con for the Warhammer ships, a lot of them have a huge amount of empty space. To say that the Imperials could board with an AT-ST, if not an AT-AT, and it would have room to maneuver in the larger ships is not hyperbole.
Of course, they would be facing Imperium Armor in return, so...
That is true, but are those particularly effective at close range where Melta bombs can be brought into play? And there’s still the issue of getting them over there.
Also why are the Marines being pushed as the base line for troops that the Imperium has when the are very much a Special Forces group? Wouldn't it be more so accurate to display them against an equivalent SF group from a series and not the base line troops that are the equivalent of IG
BlackoCatto wrote: Also why are the Marines being pushed as the base line for troops that the Imperium has when the are very much a Special Forces group? Wouldn't it be more so accurate to display them against an equivalent SF group from a series and not the base line troops that are the equivalent of IG
There is less than 1 Marine per planet in both galaxies in this comparison and many of them are scattered such that even if we removed every other threat to the IoM they'd take years to contact let alone gather. In that time the GE would have the run of the place due to being faster at FTL and having better communications technology to organize their fleets.
They could be fast and talk to each other but they'd still have to actually fight in order to take a planet. I don't think they could manage it without huge losses. Losses on a scale that are routine for the Imperium would probably bring the GE to it's knees.
Insectum7 wrote: They could be fast and talk to each other but they'd still have to actually fight in order to take a planet. I don't think they could manage it without huge losses. Losses on a scale that are routine for the Imperium would probably bring the GE to it's knees.
Yeah, but unlike the IoM they can always strike where they have the best odds. Once they realize how slow the IoM fleets are they can literally send in as many ships as they like to any given fight and always have 10-to-1 numbers advantages in space. From there they can wipe out any orbital capacity the planet has and then leave. The IoM would always be on the back foot against an enemy they can never bring to battle and who, even once the IoM starts to reach their worlds, can trade dozens if not hundreds of worlds to one just due to the speed advantage. The difference between months or years of warp travel couple with bad orders and weeks to get literally anywhere and the best intel you can ask for is literally night and day and more than enough to make up for minor differences in unit strength on a ship-to-ship level.
Plus, in a total war scenario, the GE can simply outbuild the IoM. They can build moon-sized battle stations in mere years which speaks to insane capacity to build a fleet when given a reason to do so. Even if it's less efficient they can crew these ships with mainly clones and droids and make up the numbers due to scale. The IoM will feel every loss sharply as they literally cannot rebuild a shipyard and cannot replicate many of their most powerful ship designs. Even worse, if the GE figures out that they can kill the astronomicon by stopping the shipments of psykers then the IoM loses all FTL comms and most of their ability to navigate.
Charistoph wrote: Of course, as a con for the Warhammer ships, a lot of them have a huge amount of empty space. To say that the Imperials could board with an AT-ST, if not an AT-AT, and it would have room to maneuver in the larger ships is not hyperbole.
Of course, they would be facing Imperium Armor in return, so...
Isn't that because most of them were designed at the height of the imperium? Where each ship would cart around a chunk of a legion with all it's support.
But yes, you could probably have moderate scale conflicts inside of a 40K ship up to and including armoured warfare.
Canadian 5th wrote: Once they realize how slow the IoM fleets are they can literally send in as many ships as they like to any given fight and always have 10-to-1 numbers advantages in space. From there they can wipe out any orbital capacity the planet has and then leave.
But can they though? A planet brings a lot more tonnage than 10 Star Destroyers.
Canadian 5th wrote: Once they realize how slow the IoM fleets are they can literally send in as many ships as they like to any given fight and always have 10-to-1 numbers advantages in space. From there they can wipe out any orbital capacity the planet has and then leave.
But can they though? A planet brings a lot more tonnage than 10 Star Destroyers.
So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.
Besides, most worlds have very limited defenses, for example, what tonnage of defense is a random agriworld going to have? How about a hive world that can barely maintain its defensive weapons and might have only a fraction of its nominal defensive capacity working at any given time? Many worlds in 40k barely have a PDF force, have zero space assets, and might have a few defensive weapons around a couple of major cities. That's why all the stories can always build tension by sending in a fleet, or just a lone ship, a couple of weeks late after the planet was overrun by an equally pathetic attacking force. The major systems are where you bring in the SSDs, Torpedo Spheres, or a Death Star and win the battle by removing anything worth fighting over and then leaving.
Canadian 5th wrote: So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.
Actually 10:1 odds would be hard, in terms of power projection. Sure, a standard Imperium fleet is about 50-60 ships, but when the escorts are the same size as an ISD, and only about 5 or 6 Super-class Star Destroyers were built, numbers alone may not be enough...
Canadian 5th wrote: Besides, most worlds have very limited defenses, for example, what tonnage of defense is a random agriworld going to have? How about a hive world that can barely maintain its defensive weapons and might have only a fraction of its nominal defensive capacity working at any given time? Many worlds in 40k barely have a PDF force, have zero space assets, and might have a few defensive weapons around a couple of major cities. That's why all the stories can always build tension by sending in a fleet, or just a lone ship, a couple of weeks late after the planet was overrun by an equally pathetic attacking force. The major systems are where you bring in the SSDs, Torpedo Spheres, or a Death Star and win the battle by removing anything worth fighting over and then leaving.
Two things to consider on that. If a world has value, it will have strong defenses. If a world does not have strong defenses, either it has little value, or it is already under siege by other forces that would be just as happy krumping Imperials as Imperium, and probably couldn't tell the difference any way. After all, an Ork would probably be happier dealing with a storm trooper in white armor than the green-clad Cadians. Of course, there is the odd planet that does have value, but just finished busting a nasty Waaaagh or Necron reclamation, or Nurgle plague party, but that's still a long shot out of millions of planets.
Canadian 5th wrote: So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.
Actually 10:1 odds would be hard, in terms of power projection. Sure, a standard Imperium fleet is about 50-60 ships, but when the escorts are the same size as an ISD, and only about 5 or 6 Super-class Star Destroyers were built, numbers alone may not be enough...
Not every world has a fleet, heck, not every sector has a proper fleet. Even so, size is meaningless if an ISD can pack the same punch as a larger IoM vessel.
Even with those 50-60 ship fleets and assuming that they're defending every system the GE might wish to fight them in, that doesn't really make it so the GE can't attack them in numbers. They have over 25,000 Star Destroyers, 13 SSDs of known types, and many other large ships such as those present in RotJ which aren't ISDs, VSDs, or SSDs. Not to mention frigates, corvettes, and other hyperspace-capable strike craft. If they wanted to hold back half their strength for defense they could still attack 25 systems with a fleet of 500 ISDs each if they wanted roughly10-to-1 ship ratios. They could then move on to the next system, and the next, while the IoM can't marshal forces quickly enough to meet them in strength.
Two things to consider on that. If a world has value, it will have strong defenses. If a world does not have strong defenses, either it has little value, or it is already under siege by other forces that would be just as happy krumping Imperials as Imperium, and probably couldn't tell the difference any way. After all, an Ork would probably be happier dealing with a storm trooper in white armor than the green-clad Cadians. Of course, there is the odd planet that does have value, but just finished busting a nasty Waaaagh or Necron reclamation, or Nurgle plague party, but that's still a long shot out of millions of planets.
If these lightly defended worlds have no value, and rest assured agri-worlds do hold great value, why do we see stories of forces being rushed in to defend them because they don't have a real PDF fleet on hand to do the job? If these worlds have no value, why does the IoM hold them at all? Also, a strong defense is a relative term. It could hold up against a 60 ship fleet, but how about a 5,000 ship one? How about a Death Star cracking one such world per day?
The GE can only do rapid fire pin point attacks like guerrilla warfare if they are on the offense and it is a "slow" war. If we remove any other threat to the Imperium and have them do a full on assault on the GE with all they have my bet would be on the Imperium. If Imperial Fleets start popping out of the warp all over the Galactic Empire in full force then it doesn't matter much if the empire have better FTL travel and can concentrate its forces better. Smaller forces they could jump all over the place and take out one by one but if equal or larger numbers show up around Coruscant, what are they supposed to do then? They would be overwhelmed by the Imperial war machine that have been in total war for millennia and now have all their resources free to focus on only one enemy. Any and all outside threats should be discarded because they are as much of a threat to the GE if the two were to ever come in contact and would hamper them as much.
The Star Wars universe is mostly about infighting about ideologies and politics. Doesn't matter too much who wins and rules after. Life will go on. Finding support for an all out war against another super power is probably not going to be easy. What would be the justification for the masses to enter a total war state? Palpatine might be the emperor but his fleets and armies are more about maintaining control then go conquering. He doesn't have the control and support that the leadership of the Imperium have. A war against the Imperium would probably break the GE from within even if the Imperium doesnt do it. Sure, the non human species would fight the Imperium but those are already supressed in the GE so the one rallying thing the GE could have they have already lost. The Imperium on the other hand wouldn't have that problem at all. They have fought a never ending war for survival going on for thousands of years. They don't have any need for justification or to convince the people at this point. Besides, a massive empire mostly lead by humans that have been misguided to only treat aliens badly and not exterminate them need some Impertial "Truth" before they get too corrupted by "chaos"/the force anyway if they even needed to justify it. They have done this gak for thousands of years.
The only real hurdle is the time it would take to respond. If taking too long time and the conflict slowly escalates it could be a bit problematic. If the war goes on for decades before the High Lords take notice and come to an agreement the GE could be united against the outside threat, their production increased and the losses to the Imperium starting to be felt. But if you have a Primarch in lead like the current Imperium and he makes a quick decision it is all over for the GE in no time.
Has the GE ever even fought a large external enemy? From what I can tell they function more like a hyper millitant police. There's no existential threat.
Canadian 5th wrote: So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.
Actually 10:1 odds would be hard, in terms of power projection. Sure, a standard Imperium fleet is about 50-60 ships, but when the escorts are the same size as an ISD, and only about 5 or 6 Super-class Star Destroyers were built, numbers alone may not be enough...
Not every world has a fleet, heck, not every sector has a proper fleet. Even so, size is meaningless if an ISD can pack the same punch as a larger IoM vessel.
Size is important because it presents a relative capability to project power. The ability for an ISD to punch above an escort's weight is as speculative as its ability to handle the kinetic weaponry the Imperium utilizes. As a case in point, a slow moving rock managed to take out the whole bridge section of an ISD, with other captains complaining about the damage they've taken.
Canadian 5th wrote:Even with those 50-60 ship fleets and assuming that they're defending every system the GE might wish to fight them in, that doesn't really make it so the GE can't attack them in numbers. They have over 25,000 Star Destroyers, 13 SSDs of known types, and many other large ships such as those present in RotJ which aren't ISDs, VSDs, or SSDs. Not to mention frigates, corvettes, and other hyperspace-capable strike craft. If they wanted to hold back half their strength for defense they could still attack 25 systems with a fleet of 500 ISDs each if they wanted roughly10-to-1 ship ratios. They could then move on to the next system, and the next, while the IoM can't marshal forces quickly enough to meet them in strength.
Most of the Chapters of the Astartes have at least one Battle Barge, that is roughly an SSD equivalent (though more focused on boarding and planetary assault), with many Cruisers being used to support their Battle Companies. These operate separately from the Imperium's naval fleet.
And it is possible for them to marshal quickly to meet them in strength, just not a guarantee. Since the GE couldn't track their movements at all, it would be just as much luck to avoid an Imperium fleet as it would be to target one, unless it was already engaged. Remember, these fleets are used to maneuvering around a sector to face new threats.
The GE hardly ever gathered that many ships in to one place, either. Endor only had about 35 Imperial ships there, and that was the Imperium equivalent to a Battleship with 34 Escorts. The Frigates and Corvettes would be closer to bombers than any effective capital ship. For every ISD that was attacking the Imperium, that is a planet or sector the Rebels would snatch back quick.
Canadian 5th wrote:
Two things to consider on that. If a world has value, it will have strong defenses. If a world does not have strong defenses, either it has little value, or it is already under siege by other forces that would be just as happy krumping Imperials as Imperium, and probably couldn't tell the difference any way. After all, an Ork would probably be happier dealing with a storm trooper in white armor than the green-clad Cadians. Of course, there is the odd planet that does have value, but just finished busting a nasty Waaaagh or Necron reclamation, or Nurgle plague party, but that's still a long shot out of millions of planets.
If these lightly defended worlds have no value, and rest assured agri-worlds do hold great value, why do we see stories of forces being rushed in to defend them because they don't have a real PDF fleet on hand to do the job? If these worlds have no value, why does the IoM hold them at all? Also, a strong defense is a relative term. It could hold up against a 60 ship fleet, but how about a 5,000 ship one? How about a Death Star cracking one such world per day?
Because the Imperium does not believe in doing things by half measures. If a hive can provide regiments, then the regiments will be sent there. Most PDFs are there to hold the attackers in place until reinforcements arrive, as it is.
As for the Death Star, first, it would have to get there, and internal forces of the Empire could prevent that, second, review the previous conversations about boarding and Exterminatus.
One thing also to consider from the OP, the IoM would be on the attack, not the GE. They would be responding to the Imperium's attacks first, and there are thousands of star systems in the GE, barely covered by an ISD.
Insectum7 wrote:Has the GE ever even fought a large external enemy? From what I can tell they function more like a hyper millitant police. There's no existential threat.
At the time of Palpatine's power, no. There were a few minor parties like the Hutts or the Happans. There could have been some challengers in the Unknown Regions, but aside from the Chiss Ascendency (who they were on reasonably good terms), there was little Imperial presence there till the First Order set up shop. After Palpatine, there was the New Republic, but the Empire was falling apart. From there, it depends on the timeline in question.
The Ssi-ruuk were starting to invade at Bakura when Pappa Palpatine was thrown down a shaft at Endor, and the Imperial forces were having a hard time with them till reinforcements arrived. The Yuuzhon Vong could have hit them hard, but there was a lot of speculation about how well the Empire could have faced them.
The First Order seemed to have things in hand, but had the same internal problems that made for a fragile system as the GE. I haven't read any of the intervening books between RotJ and FA, so I have no idea how they would have fared.
Really off the beaten path, but is there a list of all the "planet destroyers" in 40K? Basically, all the stuff that is equivalent to a Death Star or a Star Killer Base?
I don't mean exterminatus, which can be replicated (in theory) by a Base Delta Zero in Star Wars, or Federation "General Order 24" in Star Trek (which was given to individual starship captains, which sort of gives the impression that a large Starfleet ship "could" do it, although it has never been observed).
So, what 40K stuff just blows up planets, or reliably removes them from reality?
Another stupid question...what would Lex Luthor's battle armor count as? I am assuming it is basically just an artificer terminator powered armor (like high level inquisitors can get with an iron halo built in?)
Last stupid question...what about Doom! Is he just an Alpha Plus psyker in artificer powered armor (something that maybe a Chapter Master might have) with a forcefield (iron halo?)
I don't think either of them are too far beyond Primarchs or C'tan Shards so they could be "replicated" in 40K.
.
the existence of militarum tempestus with hotshot lasguns that are explicitly good at getting through power armor is just imaginary.
Either works good for me.
