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Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 21:10:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


How do?

So this is something I’ve been pondering for a decent while. Much as I have a personal joke opinion that Craftworld players are never satisfied, I genuinely believe they’ve had the rough of it, and possibly always have. Please note I am not an Eldar player, so please don’t think this is a wailing and gnashing of teeth from a butthurt collector.

For context, I’ve been knocking around a long old while. There for the tail end of Rogue Trader, but cut my teeth proper on 2nd Ed. I’ve also recently completed a collection of Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed Epic Space Marine books. And reading through those, it seems clear to me that Craftworlds have somewhat been left in the dust when it comes to the Citadel offerings.

How left in the dust? Well, looking at their current range using GW’s website, the only unit types not available since early Rogue Trader?

1. Phoenix Lords. Debuted in 2nd Ed
2. Warp Spiders. Debuted in 2nd Ed
3. Shining Spears. Debuted as rules in 2nd Ed, but first got models in 3rd Ed (possibly 4th Ed?)
4. Autarch. Debuted in 5th Ed (again, I think, I may be out one edition either side)
5. Wraithknight
6. Hemlock Wraithfighter
7. Crimson Hunter.

That’s it, since 1994, they’ve had very few new things added. Now, the eagle eyed among you will have noticed I’ve not included the various flavours of Grav Tank. That’s not an oversight, because those buggers have existed since at least 2nd Ed Epic - which was contemporaneous with Rogue Trader. Yes they came to 40K relatively late in the day (Falcon 2nd Ed, Prism Tank and Waveserpent 3rd/4th Ed, Nightspinner whichever Ed was in 2010ish).

The other one which is debatable is Wraithguard. As they are, they debuted in 2nd Ed. But, they’re an amalgamation of two Rogue Trader era units - the Ghost Warrior, and Spirit Warrior. But again, they were a unit choice in 2nd Ed Epic Space Marine, released around 1992, so well within Rogue Trader.

27 years, and only 7 completely new new unit options.

Yet, dear reader, they have had releases in most if not all editions. So what’s going on there then?

Well.....I can only put it as buggering about. First and foremost, 3rd Ed kicked them pretty hard. The original Aspect Warriors were replaced with frankly fugly ones, such as the Bucktooth Scorpions, and the crap looking Fire Dragons. I mean....yikes. Those were then replaced in 5th/6th with the current ones - which really aren’t terribly different from their Rogue Trader originating ones. And the poor old Warp Spiders are older than some of my friends!

They’ve never had a big range refresh. Ever. It’s all been quite the drip feed. Compare them to Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Orks, and it’s clear they’ve just not had the same oomph put in.

The upside? To the best of my knowledge, other than the Ghost and Spirit Warriors I mentioned earlier? They’ve not had anything invalidated. If you’ve got an army gathering dust since 2nd Ed, you can field all of it in 9th Ed. But again, only because their range has been Red Headed Stepchild’d, because reasons.

And it’s all been so uneven. Current models still in service since 2nd Ed?
1. The Phoenix Lords
2. Falcon Grav Tank
3. The Avatar
4. Warp Spiders
5. Vyper Jetbike
5 and a smidge. The Jetbikes for Shining Spears
6. Certain Warlock Models.

So realistically five, counting the Phoenix Lords as a blob entry, 6 if we’re strict about the Jetbike still being in production, as it does come with all the bits for a vanilla Jetbike.

That’s...pretty shameful, GW. We’ve literally seen Jes Goodwin’s sketch books. You sold them to us. And whilst I never did grab a copy for myself, they’re a treasure trove of awesome sketches and sadly wasted potential.

If we weren’t looking at such a long period of time (quarter of a century for some models. Mmm. Shock value!), I’d suspect there was someone with a vendetta nixing their development. But the only persons still around from those days, so far as I can think, are Jes and John Blanche, neither of whom seem the type to hold back a range.

So....what is going on? Why has one of 40k’s original and iconic armies been left to wither on the vine? We know they’re popular. We know they sell pretty well as a result. So where’s their dues, let alone the studio love?

What did they do to you, GW?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 21:19:08


Post by: Nurglitch


I think they're a victim of their own success. In particularly, they're a victim of the success of selling a somewhat motley collection of models as a single line of models. The Space Marine line was very kit-bashable, but the Eldar and particularly their Aspect Warrior stuff wasn't suited to the kind of collecting and kit-bashing that the SM was. I mean, there was something of an attempt to do with the Falcon what was done with the Rhino, but it never really worked out.

There's a palpable irony because kits like the Sisters of Battle Squad can build 3x the units, and the Eldar came by dual-purpose kits a little too late to really do the line any good. The sheer variety of the Eldar works against them.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 21:31:26


Post by: Hellebore


IMO one of the reasons they've never had a proper refresh is their position in 40k.

Alongside the imperium and arguably the tau (the tau have a more antagonistic relationship with the imperium because they offer membership to humans and undermine the imperium while the eldar are happy doing their own thing), they're a 'good guy' faction. That is, they're far more likely to appear on the side of the imperium than any other army.

So what this means in terms of releases is that they are unlikely to appear as an antagonist force in a starter box with marines.

Xenos armies seem to get their rebuilds when they hitch a ride to the marine wagon, which generally only happens in that antagonist spot.

As they have never in 9 editions put a non imperial (and non space marine) faction into the starter as the protagonist good guy, eldar are in perhaps the worst position than any other army in the game.

They won't ever have the spotlight and they won't ever get the shared spotlight of the antagonist of the imperium.

So GW drip feeds them between other things, releases a few things with a codex, or will have to deliberately rebuild them in a massive release independently of any other factor.

I hope we get a massive update, but they will need to deliberately engineer the space to do that, rather than just do it in association with other factions.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 21:38:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


That’s certainly an interesting point. And I do wonder how successfully the various Aspect Warriors could be dual-kitted and still maintain their distinctiveness from one another.

But....Guardians. Meant to be the building block, yes? Now not touching on the rules (that’s a different topic), but they’ve been around since the earliest days of 3rd Ed. Overall, I think they hold up pretty well. But, Storm Guardians still remain a separate expansion pack. Possibly the last in the game - certainly no others spring to mind.

The only thing they’ve had is a repack to 8 plus Grav Platform in the intervening time.

Let’s turn to the 2010 era, when we saw a real push toward a plasitifcation of ranges.

The Craftworld Eldar once again largely missed out. Yes, Wraithguard benefitted from it, and the Wraithlord and War Walker too.

But why didn’t the Aspect Warriors get a redo in metal then Finecast? Why have only 2 out of...erm...8 been redone in plastic to date?

They’re not only units iconic within the army, but central parts of the army. Except Swooping Hawks, who I reckon remain just as cack today as they’ve always been.

Let’s compare to Dark Eldar first.

Around 2010, they got a complete facelift. And since then, ever more of those relatively new kits have been released in plastic.

Necrons? The first Xenos range to not only receive a total facelift, but to have every option in their Codex released. All of them. And other than their special characters, no Finecast to be seen. Well. Maybe the Destroyer Lord, but that’s still a simple enough kit bash to avoid it.

Orks? Leaps and bounds ahead of Craftworld Eldar. Yes they lost a handful of units along the way, and took ages to get Clan rules back - but as a range they’ve received a lot of love over the years.

Tyranids? Three, arguably four distinct aesthetics since their debut in late Rogue Trader. I’d argue they had it the roughest in 3rd Ed, with a wholesale shift in design, and not in a good way. But ever since they’ve clawed (lol) their way back. And again, rules to one side, they’re probably tied with Necrons in terms of overall range quality.

Craftworlds just do not compare favourably. Each of their update phases, looking back, feel distinctly half arsed.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 21:40:51


Post by: Iracundus


Nurglitch wrote:
I think they're a victim of their own success. In particularly, they're a victim of the success of selling a somewhat motley collection of models as a single line of models. The Space Marine line was very kit-bashable, but the Eldar and particularly their Aspect Warrior stuff wasn't suited to the kind of collecting and kit-bashing that the SM was. I mean, there was something of an attempt to do with the Falcon what was done with the Rhino, but it never really worked out.

There's a palpable irony because kits like the Sisters of Battle Squad can build 3x the units, and the Eldar came by dual-purpose kits a little too late to really do the line any good. The sheer variety of the Eldar works against them.


The Falcon and Fire Prism are basically just weapon swaps (and transport capability). The Nightspinner was just a weapons swap, while retaining the transport capability (Why would a player want an artillery piece meant to hang back, transporting troops around?)

The ultimate reason is because GW have had the theme of the Craftworld Eldar get eroded over the many editions and though they have always been competitive from a few overpowered units each edition, as a whole the army has trouble having a theme. Their original thing of speed got taken in theory by the Dark Eldar. Their high tech long range firepower by the Tau. Their psychic dominance is contested by Tzeentch, and all the anti-psyker stuff out there. Is it short to medium range shredding firepower? There was a time with the Windriders and their scatter lasers but that time has gone. Even when there is an unexpected update like Jain Zar and the new Banshees, it doesn't change the overall lack of vision for the army as a whole.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:00:40


Post by: Mezmorki


I love Eldar, and they are my favorite race (and i have about 4,000 points of them still from back in the 2nd edition era).

But I also think Eldar are in need of more than just a model refresh. Looking a lot of the other armies at this point, the Eldar I feel really lack character. Part of the that is the models, but part of it comes down to things like unit customization and wargear, and what that means in turns for kit basing and models. I also don't know how you change that without disrupting things too much. But I had a few thoughts...

The lore talks about the various aspect paths, and how many warrior walk multiple paths. What if units of aspect warriors worked such that you could run a "pure" aspect list, but could also make hybrid aspect units. Imagine warp spider jump generators coupled to a striking scorpion close combat kit. Or swooping dragons, etc. I think there could be some opportunity to make units more customizable and unique and shake up the static nature of the eldar units.

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.






Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:03:53


Post by: PenitentJake


We can hope that when the new Dex comes, they'll get something... Hoping the minimum = one character and one unit. Until recently, I would have believed more in this than I currently do; but the treatment of DE has eroded the faith. I now believe that everything we needed to know was in the trailer video: it contained SM, Sisters and Guard vs. Crons.

And there folks, are the four factions scheduled for BIG releases this edition. Everyone else will get something, but those four factions were the poster children for the edition, and they are the ones who are getting range refreshes or large second wave releases. Crons and Marines have already had their huge waves, though there is some stuff still trickling for them. We know Sisters are getting the Palatine and the Paragon, minimally; the preview that showed us the Paragon made a few references to a big wave for Sisters

And guard are the Wildcard- there, but distant enough that we don't even have rumours yet.

The optimist in me, who somehow still hasn't been strangled by the cynic, says, "But wait a minute- if those were the big four, and two have already almost been done... With Sisters looking to be on the way soon, there's gotta be a few more big splashes before the inevitable 10th edition."

And I hope the optimist turns out to be right. It's still early in the edition, and once we get Covid/ Brexit under control, there will be an unprecedented boom. There is a lot to be gained for GW by really fixing all four existing Eldar factions. And given that they've brought the four factions so much closer together via the whole Ynarri plot, I think that IF it comes, it's going to be a race update including some content for all four of the factions.

And that would go some distance toward explaining the sparsity of the DE release. Because maybe GW planned it that we would get our Vect, Truborn and Blood Brides in the same splash that gives the Avatar and the Aspect Warriors for CWE, a Great Harlequin and bespoke wraithlord acrobat for the Quins, and bespoke Aspect + Troops choice + Transport for Ynarri.

Now obviously, that's a pipe dream. But if we even get half of those things, the point will still stand.

Marine stuff is almost done- I mean obviously, it'll never really end... But it's getting ready to shift so that Marine releases will become occasional while another faction- or hopefully several factions catch up a bit.




Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:11:51


Post by: Iracundus


 Mezmorki wrote:
I love Eldar, and they are my favorite race (and i have about 4,000 points of them still from back in the 2nd edition era).

But I also think Eldar are in need of more than just a model refresh. Looking a lot of the other armies at this point, the Eldar I feel really lack character. Part of the that is the models, but part of it comes down to things like unit customization and wargear, and what that means in turns for kit basing and models. I also don't know how you change that without disrupting things too much. But I had a few thoughts...

The lore talks about the various aspect paths, and how many warrior walk multiple paths. What if units of aspect warriors worked such that you could run a "pure" aspect list, but could also make hybrid aspect units. Imagine warp spider jump generators coupled to a striking scorpion close combat kit. Or swooping dragons, etc. I think there could be some opportunity to make units more customizable and unique and shake up the static nature of the eldar units.

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.


Guardians are a relic from when the Imperial Guardsman was supposedly the standard of comparison. Due to Marine focus over the editions, that has shifted to MEQ. Guardians are to Guardsman like WHFB Elves were to Humans. Basically baseline humans with +1 Ld and +1 WS/BS. Unfortunately if the metric is against MEQ, that just doesn't cut it anymore. Even against Guardsman they don't really cut it, since Guardsman got Orders (which I have never been a fan of, from the moment they were first introduced).


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:14:27


Post by: yukishiro1


Early on Eldar were pretty clearly the developers' favorite faction; they got the cool stuff and the cool rules and the cool fluff. They were the closest thing to "good guys" in the setting. Along with Space Marines, they were one of the two preeminent factions; Space Marines were the noob faction that were just brute strength that got people into the IP, and then Eldar were what the cool kids in the know moved on to, because they had the neat tricks and wicked, if fragile, toys.

At some point, that favoritism ended, and they've never recovered since, because the developers have never known what to do with them since. I guess there's a certain irony there, since their placement in 40k overall mirrors their backstory - once dominant, now only a pale shadow of their former selves. They remained very strong rules-wise right up until the release of 9th, but it was largely on the back of a few overpowered units in each edition, with the rest of the army being junk, which is a sure sign of an army the developers don't know what to do with.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:16:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I do agree they need work beyond the models, but as I’m not up on the main rules, let alone specific armies, it’s not something I felt able to weigh in on.

Certainly I don’t recall a time when Craftworlds were considered weak as such - but my impression is that’s more down to specific borken builds than a solid core book? Spamming certain units, as opposed to the current Necron Codex where pretty much anything can be included, and still produce some form of workable army?

I feel Guardians could find their feet again if they could be lead by a Warlock. With psychic powers for the unit, you could better tailor them to a role, either supporting your preference in Aspect Warriors, or covering a skills gap left by your preference in Aspect Warriors? Oh, and bump the Shuriken Catapult to 18”, yeah? They were terror weapons in 2nd Ed (better than a Storm Bolter), but in the modern game, the 12” might as well be Harsh Language.

But rules buffing is merely one sliver of the wider problem they face.

They feel old and tired to my mind. I like their models well enough (there’s certainly none I look at an think “urgh”), but I just don’t feel inspired by them. They’ve not had anything that’s made me go “well, looks like I’m starting Craftworld Eldar!”

It’s all....well, I think the word might be “patchy”. Like three smaller forces crudely welded into one (Aspect heavy, Guardian heavy, Wraith Construct heavy), and somehow feeling lesser than the sum of its parts?

Again, I’m not an Eldar player, so please do take what I post with a pinch of salt. If an opinion expressed seems controversial, please be assured it’s not intentional. I’m not looking to provoke any specific reaction.

I think it really is the lack of a Wow Factor. I get that nebulous and highly subjective thing from Dark Eldar - it’s all sleek, but deadly looking. Minimalist yet distinctly pointy spiky. And that very much is an army of three distinct flavours masquerading as one force - but thanks to being redesigned from the ground up all at once, it works. Warriors, Wyches and Wracks all look visually distinct, but clearly belong to the same design language.

Compare to Guardians, Aspects and Wraiths. That unity just isn’t as apparent. Now that might be down to the Aspects in particular, and their colour scheme being Temple rather than Craftworld based. That made them visually interesting in Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed, as armies were much smaller. But in the sprawling size of the current day, it’s perhaps more visually confusing?

Again I’m really sorry if this comes across as me pooping on Craftworld Eldar. I swear I’m not!


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:16:54


Post by: Iracundus


yukishiro1 wrote:
Early on Eldar were pretty clearly the developers' favorite faction; they got the cool stuff and the cool rules and the cool fluff. They were the closest thing to "good guys" in the setting. Along with Space Marines, they were one of the two preeminent factions.

At some point around 3rd edition or so, that ended, and they've never recovered since, because the developers have never known what to do with them since. I guess there's a certain irony there, since their placement in 40k overall mirrors their backstory - once dominant, now only a pale shadow of their former selves.


Starting point might be to finally recognize they messed up with the 3rd edition catapult. A 12" range is cripplingly short range and one extra S4 shot doesn't make up for it. The fact Avengers got a range boost to 18" was a silent admission of the problem.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:25:50


Post by: yukishiro1


One thing I'd love to ask someone at GW is why they effectively abandoned the Ynnari thing. It seemed like they had finally decided to shake things up for the Eldar by unifying them into one superfaction...but then they backed off again, made Ynnari irrelevant from a rules perspective, and now seem to pretty much pretend like the whole thing never happened.

It was the first hint in a long time of them paying any real attention to Eldar...and it ended in such a damp squib.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:26:59


Post by: Tyel


I'm not sure about lacking character. If they lack characters its because - like basically Marines and *maybe* (sorry not sorry) Orks - they've got a big enough range to have a crack at everything (whether the rules support it or not is a different matter). Ironically given 8th edition, I feel you can make an army reflecting any of the major Craftworlds that has a clear "I see what you did there" apart from Alaitoc (fear ranger spam I guess).

By comparison Codex: Venom Spam and Codex: Riptide Spam perhaps have a tighter theme, but only because... you are reduced to a relatively small number of things.

My suspicion is that CWE were going to be Ynnarified like Primaris, but then GW got cold feet. And now they aren't quite sure what to do. But hey, maybe late 2021, or early 2022 could be Eldar's big year.

As have said repeatedly over the years, couldn't really care less about new Striking Scorpions or Dark Reapers. Have to admit a New Avatar of Khaine of comparable scale to that new Belakor model though? It could be like the 90s all over again.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:30:33


Post by: harlokin


yukishiro1 wrote:
One thing I'd love to ask someone at GW is why they effectively abandoned the Ynnari thing.


I would also love to know, if only so that I could buy whoever made the decision a beer.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:32:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Ynnari have an AoS feel to them in my opinion. As in, they’re awaiting their slot in the narrative before really coming into their own.

But for now, I agree they definitely feel symptomatic of Craftworld Eldar’s slightly half arsed air.

My fear though is they’ll become a fourth full Eldar Faction (which would be cool), entirely at the expense of the Original getting their time in the sun.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:34:15


Post by: PenitentJake


Lately I've been infected by Wraith Host mania.

When I learned that Hemlock Wraithfighters were psychic constructs, it kinda blew my lid. And with the addition of Fliers to standard detachments, I can fit a Hemlock just about anywhere.

I loved the pre-nerf Wraithseer, and initially hated the new version until I read the Goonhammer review. As it stands, I'd field them just for rule of cool.

I'm not investing in Eldar anytime soon, but I did recently get Blood of the Phoenix and a box of Dire Avengers, so I have a bit of a core stashed away if GW puts effort into the range.

Obsec is an issue with a Wraith Host.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:37:48


Post by: Ielthan


Exodites are coming, they'll be an AoS army in 40k basically. Mark my words. Craftworld Eldar likely won't get another model.

Personally though I'd love to see the army go more back to it's 2nd/3rd ed roots, with the Eldar more varied in terms of appearance, far far more organic looking wraithbone (they've gotten awfully techy looking over the years), bring back the exotic furs and corsair greatcoats.

Most importantly though Warlocks as squad leaders for guardians again, actually makes them an interesting unit.

Also goes without saying, shuriken cannons to become d2, starcannons to go back to 3 shots like the glory days, and just much moah psyker. Really though I think they need to figure some kind of real replacement for move-shoot-move, they kind of don't work without it.

Alas, I think my time relying on gw is done, don't with WFB anymore and the hobby's better than ever, with a great community uber hobby focussed. Kind of want that to happen with 40k too.

p.s. I'm genuinely serious about the Exodites. Prepare yourselves.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:38:43


Post by: Bosskelot


 Mezmorki wrote:
Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game.


This is like, really not reflective of reality at all. Ulthwe is probably the most popular Craftworld for people to collect and you ain't collecting Ulthwe unless you buy in to their Lore and their Guardians. If anything, from a conceptual standpoint, Guardians are one of the strongest things in all of Craftworld Lore and are actually the prime example of the "Ordinary Heroism" trope within the setting. Unlike Guardsmen they aren't forcibly conscripted and brainwashed with endless propaganda, with trillions upon trillions more waiting to take their place should they die. Neither are they born into their role which is only reinforced further with endless indoctrination and propaganda, like Fire Warriors or Sororitas. They willingly and voluntarily take up arms to fight the worst horrors the entire galaxy has to offer, with full and terrible knowledge of what happens to them should they fail and/or die in a way that prevents their Spirit Stone from being recovered. People love that.

Where they fall down is their old models. Which people end up being 50/50 on. I've had equal numbers of people say how much they adore the models despite them being near 20 years old, I've also heard them be the main reason people don't want to collect Eldar; because they're old and because said person would feel like wanting to take them.

Now, from a gameplay perspective what you said is absolutely true and as others have mentioned many of their stats are emblematic of legacy issues that plague a lot of armies and units. Lorewise they're a fairly defensive unit, and one that Eldar commanders would not want to throw away in risky attacks or suicide moves. Yet in-game this is how they're played because a 12" Assault 2 gun was good in 3rd Edition, but fething sucks in present rules.

It also doesn't help that overall, CWE have lost rules and mechanics whereas every other army has gained them. Ork Boyz have lost their AP they used to have in 3rd, but they've also gained Mob Rule, Ere' We Go, Dakka Dakka Dakka and Green Tide. All Eldar units have lost stuff like Fleet of Foot and important stats like I and old-WS and basically gained nothing in return. Wow, advancing and shooting assault weapons without penalty and a useless rule against a faction that realistically is like 5% of the game. Brilliant. Remember when all Marines had was ATSKNF? Now look at just the core rules they get. Battle Focus just can't compete on its own.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:41:43


Post by: yukishiro1


 harlokin wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
One thing I'd love to ask someone at GW is why they effectively abandoned the Ynnari thing.


I would also love to know, if only so that I could buy whoever made the decision a beer.


I mean I don't disagree on the substance of keeping the factions separate. But the point is that it was the first attention that had been paid to the faction in a long time, and now it seems like the whole thing was basically a narrative dead-end except for rezzing Super Hero Smurf Dude (which is an almost perfect metaphor for modern 40k generally - Xenos just get to be NPC bit players whose greatest aspiration is to get to be useful to the Super Chads before going back into the dustbin of history).


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:45:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On the loss of Fleet of Foot etc?

Something we saw as very Elven and Eldar in naval games is move-shoot-move, or move-move-shoot (but possibly not shoot-move-move?).

Would that help them any in 40K?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:53:12


Post by: Bosskelot


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ynnari have an AoS feel to them in my opinion. As in, they’re awaiting their slot in the narrative before really coming into their own.

But for now, I agree they definitely feel symptomatic of Craftworld Eldar’s slightly half arsed air.

My fear though is they’ll become a fourth full Eldar Faction (which would be cool), entirely at the expense of the Original getting their time in the sun.


This is an issue with Ynnari and a lot of AOS factions in that, they're so focused on being part of an ongoing narrative, that GW doesn't bother to actually flesh them out and make them feel like a real civilization/organisation/country (choose whichever, depending on faction)

The most compelling and interesting part of Ynnari is: how do they even live their daily lives? What does Ynnari society look like? How do they live? Where do they live? What does a Ynnari civilian do?

We know the answers to these questions for Craftworld and Drukhari, we even know lots of these things for Corsairs and Exodites, neither of which really exist anymore in real terms. Even Harlequins have some of this stuff expanded and explained, despite being mostly kept as a mysterious force.

But GW have expanded on none of this for Ynnari. Instead they're a narrative-focused faction, revolving entirely around 3 named characters, a vague concept of "hope" and an impossible goal to achieve. Why should I give a gak about that? This is an issue that is going to catch up to AOS eventually too and kind of already limits the appeal of some of its factions. You need to give me actual reasons to care about the faction in order to be invested in it. Hell, even in battlefield terms its all still really vague and I'm still unclear as to how Spirit Stones, Drukhari life leeching and Cegorach's protection even work or apply with them. What is a Guardian Defender or Kabalite Warrior within the context of a Ynnari army? Instead we just get vague gak about "oooooh the powers of death swirl around them and give them power" yeah okay cool dude but how is a Ynnari army actually organised? That's what people are actually here for.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:54:32


Post by: Stormonu


It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.

I think the problem is that no one at GW has been able to follow on the original designs Jes Goodwin set down for the race.

Perhaps it is time to fracture the craftworlds monolith appearance (& traits) so they inject some new units and aesthetics into the line.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 22:56:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’ve a differing opinion on the AoS side of things, but that’s of course a different topic.

Ynnari? I think they more need to be a Cult, rather than a society. A semi-proscribed religious order, rather than a people unto themselves - at least at this stage. There is a clear potential for real world religious allegory, but let’s agree that bit isn’t really for Dakka!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Y’know. I am going to weigh in on the rules side after all. Not in a tier way, or offering fixes way. But in a comparing of development way.

Now, I have of course said I’m not familiar with the current game, let alone Craftworld Eldar specifically. So have your salt at the ready. Hell, grab some Tequila and Lime wedges whilst your at it, make a party of it. Maybe don’t take a shot every time I say something wrong though!

But rules wise, Craftworlds have been very, very staid and stagnant.

Now. A chunk of that in my mind is a relic of the 3rd Ed gutting of psychic powers. Sure, things were super daft in 2nd Ed, but it was like finding your stock liquid too salty, so just using water instead.

Aspects are probably the worst example of stagnant rules. They’re all so settled in their niche, they don’t do anything particularly interesting. I’d say Dark Reapers have suffered the most. They used to be super accurate support units. In 3rd, and for a while after, they just became Marine Deleters, and poorly suited to anything else (not enough shots or models for hordes, not enough Strength to worry vehicles). Swooping Hawks just don’t do....anything, so far as I can tell. Fire Dragons can slag vehicles well enough - but need a transport to get into effective range - but all of the transport options can serve as longer range anti-tank. All of them risk being wasted in your list if your opponent doesn’t include their Victims Of Choice.

For pre-arranged games, that’s perhaps mitigated if you’re fortunate enough to be able to afford a wide collection. But for Tournaments, where you really don’t know who you’ll be matched against, it seems like you risk hobbling yourself.

I dunno. Everything about the Craftworlds just feels somewhat disjointed. And as such, interesting builds are limited to just spamming certain units, rather than building a force which reflects the background and can more or less hold its own on the field of battle.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 23:39:33


Post by: Dysartes


 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/08 23:43:34


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Dysartes wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....


Actually planning a three on that very subject


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:13:47


Post by: Flinty


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Aspects are probably the worst example of stagnant rules. They’re all so settled in their niche, they don’t do anything particularly interesting. I’d say Dark Reapers have suffered the most. They used to be super accurate support units. In 3rd, and for a while after, they just became Marine Deleters, and poorly suited to anything else (not enough shots or models for hordes, not enough Strength to worry vehicles). Swooping Hawks just don’t do....anything, so far as I can tell. Fire Dragons can slag vehicles well enough - but need a transport to get into effective range - but all of the transport options can serve as longer range anti-tank. All of them risk being wasted in your list if your opponent doesn’t include their Victims Of Choice.

For pre-arranged games, that’s perhaps mitigated if you’re fortunate enough to be able to afford a wide collection. But for Tournaments, where you really don’t know who you’ll be matched against, it seems like you risk hobbling yourself.

I dunno. Everything about the Craftworlds just feels somewhat disjointed. And as such, interesting builds are limited to just spamming certain units, rather than building a force which reflects the background and can more or less hold its own on the field of battle.


This is an interesting point though. The background on Eldar is that the farseers largely know what will happen ahead of time and therefore the very limited Eldar forces can be chosen specifically for the mission. Eldar should never have to build a take all comers force, because they should know ahead of time what they will be facing and can cannon up accordingly. This is a logistics and strategic maneuverability issue out with the ability of 40k to address.

To be true to the ethos of eldar, the players really need a stratagem that allows them to basically tailor their force after they know what their opponent has taken. I dont see this as being likely to ever be implemented as it would require all.Eldar players to basically have multiple sets of each possible unit to counter all of the things they might come up against. It also runs the risk of the pre-game time being radically extended while the eldar player peruses the list and fiddles.

On the wider point of the thread, I wonder if eldar suffer from having a very early extensive set of models that, in my opinion, absolutely smashed aesthetics and design space out of the park. GW tried to refresh them as has been mentioned but utterly failed in translating the aesthetic and then reverted back to something very close to the original. It's possible GW just doesnt want to open themselves up to mucking about with what are already nice models. So they test the waters occasionally, leaving everyone unsatisfied.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:17:56


Post by: dan2026


Craftworld Eldar need the ground up redo Necrons recently got.
Hell they need it more than Necrons even did.

The fact that 75% of the Eldar range still hasn't made it to plastic, while Space Marines are rounding out their 2nd complete plastic army is goddamn absurd.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:30:23


Post by: Ielthan


 dan2026 wrote:
Craftworld Eldar need the ground up redo Necrons recently got.
Hell they need it more than Necrons even did.

The fact that 75% of the Eldar range still hasn't made it to plastic, while Space Marines are rounding out their 2nd complete plastic army is goddamn absurd.


The thing is....with space marines they did the whole make them bigger thing and it required some pretty epic fluff gymnastics, with necrons, well they're machines so just add newer bigger machines. But Eldar....well you can just redo the aspects in plastic, but I suspect that's not an attractive prospect to them, and it seems the new banshees didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. You can't just make new bigger but different versions of the aspects with new names as they are fundamentally linked and described in the fluff, so I guess you could make new aspects, but then the fluff justification is tricky (I guess they did it with shadow spectres), and you're still left with the old metal/resin ones, and what do you do with those? Write them out of the lore? There's quite a lot of vehicle options, but they've actually reduced the options there significantly with forgeworld cutting back so much.

I agree the lack of support Eldar has gotten is absurd, especially when you consider how well they've sold over their lifetime, but I just really can't see GW redoing that many non power armoured models unfortunately, the problems become too big, easier for them to cut their losses and start something new (Exodites). Sisters of battle are a way for them to reach a new audience, necrons were in the starter box so had to be fleshed out. I'm afraid there isn't much love left for the Eldar at GW, I mean look at their rules, they're a half arsed joke. Maybe I'm just trying to lower my expectations, but it seems pretty rational to me.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:39:12


Post by: Overread


the only reason banshee didn't sell well is the duel pack they were in was the most expensive GW did and mostly had old Eldar models and then big fancy new banshee; followed up by being an expensive 5 person kit when sold on their own.

That and I think there's also the lack of hype. It's 1 new kit in an army that needs a LOT of new kits to rekindle existing eldar fans. That alone might have been more of an issue than the price. It's easier to soak a higher price when there's loads of new shiny things to get excited over.



I do agree Eldar need a big rework.

I wonder if the sole reason is that, despite having loads of concept designs, there's just no one in the design team who likes them enough to have done them and no management pressure to get them done. That said whilst we know that GW is often design-led we've no real idea of the internal politics of the company to say for sure. It might be plastic eldar revamps are sitting on the shelf ready to go and someone in management hates them or just never found a slot for them.


What's really odd is GW went all in on Yinnari which is basically just allied craftworld and dark eldar and yet didn't pair that with a big update. It was a lazy way to try and boost sales in both armies by selling them to the "other side" as it were.



As for Exodites I think GW only rolls them out in the hope people by lizardmen/seraphon kits to convert into Eldar riding dinosaurs. Otherwise there's no reason that they keep rolling that lore out over and over with no model delivery in decades.



I think there's a slot for Eldar, they just need someone to kick them out of the slump they are in right now at GW. As a necron player I do agree, Necrons didn't "need" the update. Its a fantastic update and I love the new sculpts and new models, but darn it Eldar want the love too.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:39:56


Post by: Argive


 Bosskelot wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:
Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game.


This is like, really not reflective of reality at all. Ulthwe is probably the most popular Craftworld for people to collect and you ain't collecting Ulthwe unless you buy in to their Lore and their Guardians. If anything, from a conceptual standpoint, Guardians are one of the strongest things in all of Craftworld Lore and are actually the prime example of the "Ordinary Heroism" trope within the setting. Unlike Guardsmen they aren't forcibly conscripted and brainwashed with endless propaganda, with trillions upon trillions more waiting to take their place should they die. Neither are they born into their role which is only reinforced further with endless indoctrination and propaganda, like Fire Warriors or Sororitas. They willingly and voluntarily take up arms to fight the worst horrors the entire galaxy has to offer, with full and terrible knowledge of what happens to them should they fail and/or die in a way that prevents their Spirit Stone from being recovered. People love that.

Where they fall down is their old models. Which people end up being 50/50 on. I've had equal numbers of people say how much they adore the models despite them being near 20 years old, I've also heard them be the main reason people don't want to collect Eldar; because they're old and because said person would feel like wanting to take them.

Now, from a gameplay perspective what you said is absolutely true and as others have mentioned many of their stats are emblematic of legacy issues that plague a lot of armies and units. Lorewise they're a fairly defensive unit, and one that Eldar commanders would not want to throw away in risky attacks or suicide moves. Yet in-game this is how they're played because a 12" Assault 2 gun was good in 3rd Edition, but fething sucks in present rules.

It also doesn't help that overall, CWE have lost rules and mechanics whereas every other army has gained them. Ork Boyz have lost their AP they used to have in 3rd, but they've also gained Mob Rule, Ere' We Go, Dakka Dakka Dakka and Green Tide. All Eldar units have lost stuff like Fleet of Foot and important stats like I and old-WS and basically gained nothing in return. Wow, advancing and shooting assault weapons without penalty and a useless rule against a faction that realistically is like 5% of the game. Brilliant. Remember when all Marines had was ATSKNF? Now look at just the core rules they get. Battle Focus just can't compete on its own.


I like this post. I think it hits a lot sticking points.
The core rules for the army are just terrible. You get battle focus.. Aaand thats it. Battlefocus which only works on T3 1 infantry (aspects and guardians) and bikes (T4 2W)..
Apart from that you get nothing... Its not even a buff really.. its just something that makes the 12" basic gun functionable..

Of course we had a PA updated traits which although interesting, only really give you one option: Expert crafters. Ironicaly its a trait marines of a green colour once had... funny that... So you pick that every time becasue its an auto take and pick something else for flavour and that's it. The faction only has 6 generic warlord traits and the same one or two relics for years..

This brings me to the clutch issue of having design space Erroded away by marines and other factions. All of the things that specific Eldar units used to be really good at, taken away to fuel the "uniqueness" of other factions. So here we are with 12" guardian bodies as our core... Costing nearly as many pts as 4/5 of a basic marine for most of the edition thus far.

All of the rules that any Eldar thing gets there is something that just does it better elsewhere.. Want heavy hitting heavy infantry ? There's things like gravis and terminators that make wraith constructs look pedestrian with heir eyewatering traits, warlord traits, auras, psychic powers, rules and starts combos....

Psychic might of the Eldar? Please... a tzeenchan sorcerer or a shiny Space marine librarian gets to cast better then Eldrad. You know Eldrad. The millennia old Farseer who is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.. Apparently.. Yeh that guy.

And here lies the problem. There just doesn't seem to be unwillingness to put the work in and write the rules that make the army work.. The imperial Armour is just another example... Exarch powers were actually a good idea. It needed work but it was a good idea. But no. Lets abandon it entirely..

We have just gone through two years of 2 marine codexes and 2 sets of supplements.. You telling me nobody at GW knows how to write good/ varied rules for a faction to make them specialise at certain things..? Where is my saim-hann/jetbikes rules? Wraith host rules.. just look at the Iyanded traits... We have had multiple threads and topics over the last few years since ive been hobbying people lamenting how bland the CWE rules are (bland does not mean not effective). Some random posters ona forum can come up with bucket load of ideas of the cuff in an afternoon... But paid game developers/ rules team cant figure it out? I don't buy it. I think its a top down decisions to actively ignore the faction in favour of other stuff. I guess people att he top are butt hurt over loosing to some eldar cheese back in the day.. Dunno.

And don't even get me started on the Failcast choice of models and the whole BOTP debacle.... Not only are the rules bad for most units the fact is that youd have to more likely than not use failcast models which is just something that auto -repels peaople.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:44:58


Post by: Insectum7


 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.

*Sustained Fire Die - six sided die printed thusly:( 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - JAM ) 50% chance of 2+ shots, 17% chance that you couldn't fire and would have to spend your next firing phase clearing the jam.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:49:39


Post by: Ielthan


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.


I agree with all of this. I'd add that having warlocks as the squad leader was really key too, at that time every unit had some kind of leader that was usually a fighter, Eldar having a psyker gave them a unique identity. One little thing that would be nice would be the ability to take a unit of 10 guardians that includes the heavy weapons team, so they're not quite so vulnerable to blast weapons.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:59:11


Post by: Iracundus


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.

*Sustained Fire Die - six sided die printed thusly:( 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - JAM ) 50% chance of 2+ shots, 17% chance that you couldn't fire and would have to spend your next firing phase clearing the jam.


I would say the 12" shuriken catapult never worked even in 3rd edition because of the AP system being all or nothing, and MEQs still being the most common opponent. One extra S4 shot was nothing, and then armies started being able to effectively assault ovever 12" rendering their whole gun worthless. The 2nd edition gun was best, arguably overpowered, but some minor tweaking was what was needed rather than a nerfbat, such as reducing the armor save modifier to -1 instead of -2, and perhaps just making it a straight 2 shot weapon instead of the finicky Sustained Fire Dice.

Guardian armor was only better in 2nd edition compared to Guardsmen, who got a 6+ (5+ vs. blasts and templates).

Ironically the Eldar are more vulnerable to LD issues than the Guard because they got all those various morale boosting or LD re-rolls or test on the officer LD over the various editions, whereas the Eldar didn't get any of that so their base LD started looking subpar.

As others have mentioned, there has been erosion of design space and right now nobody in GW seems enthusiastic about them. That is not to say they cannot create effective albeit bland units. The Eldar have always been competitive usually due to a few overpowered units and combos that then get spammed. It's just that it's fairly obvious that GW authors seem to gush over with ideas with SM, they seem to suddenly lack them when it comes to Eldar or other xenos races and settle for a few boring re-rolls or other tweaks that don't really fire up players' imagination.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 00:59:37


Post by: dhallnet


Ielthan wrote:
and it seems the new banshees didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. .

Because there was no point in buying Banshees. They are aesthetically, close enough to the previous models, the rules aren't exactly compelling and the box is overpriced reaching 1$ per point.

And it's probably the whole issue with CWE. GW can't, somehow, come up with new ideas (probably because they are not sure how but also because the aesthetics probably aren't something the fan base wants to see changed, which would tie into Ynnari being abandoned) so it isn't a really as good a business move to just make new models like the previous ones, outside of 6th/7th where they over corrected, every edition's codex has mostly been about nerfing the stuff that was strong in the previous codex and a lot of mechanics where moved from CWE to other flavours of Eldars and eventually other armies. Even something iconic like heavy weapons platforms in guardians unit is more of a joke than anything nowadays. So the interest for players and collectors alike have declined. It's kinda why, as another poster speculated, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if exodites were released in the next few years before a new CWE range, as it feels like they started to also pop up in the lore.
There was also a period when FW/GW was reimagining a few concepts (the titans, the super heavies and created a few new vehicles, for Epic and 40K), dunno why it didn't translate into the main range though.

But since they are in their "let's remake our 90s ! Everyone loves that" period and the models are old enough maybe we can hope for a sister of battle treatment. AKA a close redesign of all the entries with barely anything new conceptually to "test" waters although it would be harder to achieve (can't redo CWE with just a few infantry boxes apparently).


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 01:03:11


Post by: Iracundus


dhallnet wrote:
Ielthan wrote:
and it seems the new banshees didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. .

Because there was no point in buying Banshees. They are aesthetically, close enough to the previous models, the rules aren't exactly compelling and the box is overpriced reaching 1$ per point.

And it's probably the whole issue with CWE. GW can't, somehow, come up with new ideas (probably because they are not sure how but also because the aesthetics probably aren't something the fan base wants to see changed, which would tie into Ynnari being abandoned) so it isn't a really as good a business move to just make new models like the previous ones, outside of 6th/7th where they over corrected, every edition's codex has mostly been about nerfing the stuff that was strong in the previous codex and a lot of mechanics where moved from CWE to other flavours of Eldars and eventually other armies. So the interest for players and collectors alike have declined. It's kinda why, as another poster speculated, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if exodites were released in the next few years.
There was also a period when FW/GW was reimagining a few concepts though (the titans, the super heavies and created a few new vehicles, for Epic and 40K), dunno why it didn't translate into the main range though.

But since they are in their "let's remake our 90s ! Everyone loves that" period and the models are old enough maybe we can hope for a sister of battle treatment. AKA a close redesign of all the entries with barely anything new conceptually to "test" waters although it would be harder to achieve (can't redo CWE with just a few infantry boxes apparently).


Exodites were hinted at in Phoenix Rising, with it saying how younger Exodites were growing discontented with their elders and wanted to play a bigger part in the galaxy's affairs, spurred on by the Ynnari.

I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 01:07:09


Post by: dhallnet


Iracundus wrote:
I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, I just don't want Ynnari if it means "let's make a super faction and merge CWE/Dark eldar designs together !". I'm also completely fine with them being a bunch of specific characters with followers from various other Aeldari cultures. Since that's actually what they are.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 01:09:18


Post by: Iracundus


dhallnet wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, I just don't want Ynnari if it means "let's make a super faction and merge CWE/Dark eldar designs together !". I'm also completely fine with them being a bunch of specific characters with followers from various other Aeldari cultures. Since that's actually what they are.


Your two sentences just seemed to contradict each other, first by saying you don't mind a super faction merging them together, but then saying you don't mind them being characters with followers from different cultures.

I don't think Ynnari should be Eldar soup. They need to develop their own identity as a faction rather than just consist of units scavenged from Craftoworld, Dark Eldar, or Harlequin lists.

The problem is right now we don't have information on what the Ynnari are up to now, or how they function as a society/cult. The movement is described as spreading yet all we ever see the focus on is Yvraine and her immediate circle of followers.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 01:16:50


Post by: dhallnet


Iracundus wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, I just don't want Ynnari if it means "let's make a super faction and merge CWE/Dark eldar designs together !". I'm also completely fine with them being a bunch of specific characters with followers from various other Aeldari cultures. Since that's actually what they are.


Your two sentences just seemed to contradict each other, first by saying you don't mind a super faction merging them together, but then saying you don't mind them being characters with followers from different cultures.

I don't think Ynnari should be Eldar soup. They need to develop their own identity as a faction rather than just consist of units scavenged from Craftoworld, Dark Eldar, or Harlequin lists.

The problem is right now we don't have information on what the Ynnari are up to now, or how they function as a society/cult. The movement is described as spreading yet all we ever see the focus on is Yvraine and her immediate circle of followers.

What I meant is I don't want a merge of CWE aesthetics and Dark Eldars aesthetics to form a third aesthetic which would replace the previous two. I think we're safe on this side now but it wasn't that clear when they introduced Ynnari.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 01:30:11


Post by: Sarigar


I really thought Ynarri was a concept years back where GW was going to ultimately merge the Aeldari factions into a single army. Then something changed, and I don't know what happened.

Right now, I've got about 15,000 points of painted Craftworld and loved the new Banshee models in plastic. Clean details, well designed models and retaining the Jes Goodwin original concept. If GW does update the line, I will happily buy the new models to paint and replace my aged model collection. I've played Eldar since Rogue Trader and am willing to expand the collection.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 01:31:22


Post by: A.T.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So....what is going on? Why has one of 40k’s original and iconic armies been left to wither on the vine? We know they’re popular. We know they sell pretty well as a result. So where’s their dues, let alone the studio love?
Same thing as with the imperial guard, they are a faction with a very broad range of legacy models and are not marines/chaos.
Even orks and nids - what new units have they actually seen since 2014? How many have they lost? (2015 was craftworlds and harlies)

Necrons and DE by comparison are still in the process of being filled out with units. It's new stuff taking priority over resculpts.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Craftworlds just do not compare favourably. Each of their update phases, looking back, feel distinctly half arsed.
I don't know... orks and nids have had a bad case of codex shrinkage over the years. The Eldar have never actually lost units other than the odd character and have a few recently released spin-off subfactions.


Besides - 'worst of it' is going to go to the inquisition any day of the week, players of which look on with envy at the steady flow of new squat and zoat models.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 02:07:53


Post by: Argive


 Sarigar wrote:
I really thought Ynarri was a concept years back where GW was going to ultimately merge the Aeldari factions into a single army. Then something changed, and I don't know what happened.

Right now, I've got about 15,000 points of painted Craftworld and loved the new Banshee models in plastic. Clean details, well designed models and retaining the Jes Goodwin original concept. If GW does update the line, I will happily buy the new models to paint and replace my aged model collection. I've played Eldar since Rogue Trader and am willing to expand the collection.


Exactly. The only reason Eldar players dont have collect and play more aspects is that they are garbage fine cast or expensive metal OOP. Neither of which is appealing. I would love to get me couple squads of swooping hawks in plastic. I dont own any and would chomp at the bit to get my hands on 10 or 20 and another bunch of scorpions etc.. Loads of people would.

I got new Jain Zair as well as 2 sets of banshees when they came out. But... at £35 per 5x 1W t3 infantry is a bit hard to swallow.. Luckily there are discounter retailers but stil.. That's a silly price.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 02:11:34


Post by: Insectum7


Iracundus wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.

*Sustained Fire Die - six sided die printed thusly:( 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - JAM ) 50% chance of 2+ shots, 17% chance that you couldn't fire and would have to spend your next firing phase clearing the jam.


I would say the 12" shuriken catapult never worked even in 3rd edition because of the AP system being all or nothing, and MEQs still being the most common opponent.
I understand the sentiment but I disagree on the basis that the Bolter was also very limited, being able to only fire one shot on the move and disalowing charging afterwards. This gave Guardians a huge boost to their fluidity of action.

Assault was . . . Interesting in 3rd. Generally not bad with the exception of BAs, and I don't think Gav Thorpe really understood what he was doing when he wrote that book.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 03:02:51


Post by: A.T.


 Insectum7 wrote:
I understand the sentiment but I disagree on the basis that the Bolter was also very limited, being able to only fire one shot on the move and disalowing charging afterwards. This gave Guardians a huge boost to their fluidity of action.
Not even that - infantry rapid fire weapons got no shots at all on the move 3rd-5th edition.
Though at 12" the guardians didn't have many options. The 18" avengers on the other hand...


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 03:21:05


Post by: yukishiro1


We haven't even got into what a joke aspect warriors have become. They went from probably the most deadly infantry in the game in past editions, to a literal joke now that even generic space marines will happily pound into submission with no trouble, whether at range or in combat.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 03:36:08


Post by: PenitentJake


I'm loading up Dire Avengers because they're cheaper than Banshees and they're plastic, which means they're unlikely to be replaced. They're also troops, so there's that.

I haven't assembled or painted any CWE, but my concept flies in the face of Expert Crafters. I wanted a pure Aspect detachment- three units of Dire Avengers, three units of Banshees, Jain Zair and Asurmen; he was going to be the last model I bought in order to give GW the longest possible span of time to replace him with plastic.

And if they did, I'd be able to say I had a pure plastic Battalion of Aspect Warriors. Because of the specialized build, I'd use the Children of Khaine CW trait to add a point of damage to melee attacks on a six and the Superior Shurikens CW trait for an extra 4" range on everyone's gun. I'd kit one unit of Banshees with Slashing Impact for Mortal wounds on the charge in addition to war shout.

As for the Dire Avengers, I'd give them all Bladestorm instead of Battle Fortune for extra hits on exploding 6's and load the exarchs up with shimmer shields for the Invul.

I like this combination of CW Traits for pure Aspect Warriors better than the Biel Tan perks.

I also really like Iyanden Spirit Hosts as a second detachment to add some support for the Children of Khaine.

I'm not terribly competitive; I don't know if that would be decent on the table or not, but I like it for rule of cool. Whether it wins or not is a secondary concern.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 03:37:23


Post by: Insectum7


A.T. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I understand the sentiment but I disagree on the basis that the Bolter was also very limited, being able to only fire one shot on the move and disalowing charging afterwards. This gave Guardians a huge boost to their fluidity of action.
Not even that - infantry rapid fire weapons got no shots at all on the move 3rd-5th edition.
Though at 12" the guardians didn't have many options. The 18" avengers on the other hand...
Rapid Fire in 3rd was shoot once at half range on the move, twice at half range/once at full range standing still.

Iirc, 4th upgraded them to fire twice on the move, half range.

5th gave Marines Bolt Pistols back as standard equipment, giving them the ability to shoot once at 12" and then assault.

Nowadays with my Ultramarines I'm moving, firing twice at 24", and with a -1 AP for tactical doctrine. If I ran Primaris *spit* I'd be firing twice at 30" at a -2APin Tac Doctrine. Meanwhile Shuriken Catapults are still 12" range at AP0. . . . It's totally fething stupid.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 03:37:49


Post by: Iracundus


yukishiro1 wrote:
We haven't even got into what a joke aspect warriors have become. They went from probably the most deadly infantry in the game in past editions, to a literal joke now that even generic space marines will happily pound into submission with no trouble, whether at range or in combat.


The steady power creep has also led to things like the Eradicators and their entire squad's melta rifles being each equal to the Fire Dragon Exarch's relic Firepike. It's like 3rd edition again when Gav Thorpe or the rest of GW balked at giving Fire Dragons S8 weapons and so gave them "advanced" Fusion guns that were S6, thus under performing the melta weapons of the "primitive" races.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 04:01:49


Post by: Racerguy180


 Dysartes wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....


Dammit, now why'd ya have ta bring that up


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 04:07:14


Post by: Stormonu


 Overread wrote:
the only reason banshee didn't sell well is the duel pack they were in was the most expensive GW did and mostly had old Eldar models and then big fancy new banshee; followed up by being an expensive 5 person kit when sold on their own.

That and I think there's also the lack of hype. It's 1 new kit in an army that needs a LOT of new kits to rekindle existing eldar fans. That alone might have been more of an issue than the price. It's easier to soak a higher price when there's loads of new shiny things to get excited over.



I do agree Eldar need a big rework.

I wonder if the sole reason is that, despite having loads of concept designs, there's just no one in the design team who likes them enough to have done them and no management pressure to get them done. That said whilst we know that GW is often design-led we've no real idea of the internal politics of the company to say for sure. It might be plastic eldar revamps are sitting on the shelf ready to go and someone in management hates them or just never found a slot for them.


What's really odd is GW went all in on Yinnari which is basically just allied craftworld and dark eldar and yet didn't pair that with a big update. It was a lazy way to try and boost sales in both armies by selling them to the "other side" as it were.



As for Exodites I think GW only rolls them out in the hope people by lizardmen/seraphon kits to convert into Eldar riding dinosaurs. Otherwise there's no reason that they keep rolling that lore out over and over with no model delivery in decades.



I think there's a slot for Eldar, they just need someone to kick them out of the slump they are in right now at GW. As a necron player I do agree, Necrons didn't "need" the update. Its a fantastic update and I love the new sculpts and new models, but darn it Eldar want the love too.


Also, I imagine several people didn't buy the Banshees as they were waiting for the rest of the aspects to go plastic (I was one of them).

However, what's really needed is a Guilliman-sized kick in the pants. Just redoing existing sculpts isn't going to pull in those who already have full armies - you need something new. And they need to pull in someone who will champion the line - both on the model side and the rule side.

I'm thinking a return of Asurmen event. He's been gone for a bit to contemplate and decided that the eldar have fallen into stagnation that threatens them. Throws out the bad of old aspect shrines, and remolds them into improved versions of the old shrines, as well as some new.

And he's totally opposed to Ynarri, convinced the current Ynead is a Slaanish trick, and is convinced that the current torn state of the galaxy is the fault of humanity. They have to go. To create - y'know - tension.

Then, to the kits - new sculpts and options for the existing shrines. Rebuild Asurmen's shrine warriors as a new faction, but leave things open enough they can still build craftworld forces if they want.

Make each aspect kit a dual kit - to build an existing Aspect and a new type (like the Tau Fire Warrior/Breacher unit). Rebuild each existing Aspect with brand new rules and options (move the old Aspect rules to Legends?). Bring in some new Phoenix lords, to boot. And a complete reworking of the Avatar on par with a primarch. Throw in a new tank with no transport capacity that doesn't us the falcon kit.

Something like

Banshees - Sirens (melee troops)
Scorpions - Cobras (assassins)
Spiders - Krakens (assault)
Dragons - Chimera (anti-tank)
Hawks - Phoenixes (scouts)
Reapers - Hounds (ranged troops)




Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 04:08:19


Post by: Insectum7


Iracundus wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
We haven't even got into what a joke aspect warriors have become. They went from probably the most deadly infantry in the game in past editions, to a literal joke now that even generic space marines will happily pound into submission with no trouble, whether at range or in combat.


The steady power creep has also led to things like the Eradicators and their entire squad's melta rifles being each equal to the Fire Dragon Exarch's relic Firepike. It's like 3rd edition again when Gav Thorpe or the rest of GW balked at giving Fire Dragons S8 weapons and so gave them "advanced" Fusion guns that were S6, thus under performing the melta weapons of the "primitive" races.
Actually there was a semi-reason behind that, and it had to do with armor penetration. In 2nd ed the armor pen (against vehicles) of a Meltagun wasn't all that great, especially when compared to the 2nd Ed Multimelta. If the Fusion gun kept it's S8 for 3rd it would have suddenly had the same anti armor capability at a Multimelta. I think they wanted Fire Dragons to be required to assault vehicles with Meltabombs, which is what was required for 2nd most of the time, while S6 was still plenty good against most models with a T value at the time.

That doesn't mean the fact that Imperial Meltaguns keeping S8 isn't awkward, but there does seem to be some logic around S6 Fusion Guns based on intended unit behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stormonu wrote:
Spoiler:
 Overread wrote:
the only reason banshee didn't sell well is the duel pack they were in was the most expensive GW did and mostly had old Eldar models and then big fancy new banshee; followed up by being an expensive 5 person kit when sold on their own.

That and I think there's also the lack of hype. It's 1 new kit in an army that needs a LOT of new kits to rekindle existing eldar fans. That alone might have been more of an issue than the price. It's easier to soak a higher price when there's loads of new shiny things to get excited over.



I do agree Eldar need a big rework.

I wonder if the sole reason is that, despite having loads of concept designs, there's just no one in the design team who likes them enough to have done them and no management pressure to get them done. That said whilst we know that GW is often design-led we've no real idea of the internal politics of the company to say for sure. It might be plastic eldar revamps are sitting on the shelf ready to go and someone in management hates them or just never found a slot for them.


What's really odd is GW went all in on Yinnari which is basically just allied craftworld and dark eldar and yet didn't pair that with a big update. It was a lazy way to try and boost sales in both armies by selling them to the "other side" as it were.



As for Exodites I think GW only rolls them out in the hope people by lizardmen/seraphon kits to convert into Eldar riding dinosaurs. Otherwise there's no reason that they keep rolling that lore out over and over with no model delivery in decades.



I think there's a slot for Eldar, they just need someone to kick them out of the slump they are in right now at GW. As a necron player I do agree, Necrons didn't "need" the update. Its a fantastic update and I love the new sculpts and new models, but darn it Eldar want the love too.


Also, I imagine several people didn't buy the Banshees as they were waiting for the rest of the aspects to go plastic (I was one of them).

However, what's really needed is a Guilliman-sized kick in the pants. Just redoing existing sculpts isn't going to pull in those who already have full armies - you need something new. And they need to pull in someone who will champion the line - both on the model side and the rule side.

I'm thinking a return of Asurmen event. He's been gone for a bit to contemplate and decided that the eldar have fallen into stagnation that threatens them. Throws out the bad of old aspect shrines, and remolds them into improved versions of the old shrines, as well as some new.

And he's totally opposed to Ynarri, convinced the current Ynead is a Slaanish trick, and is convinced that the current torn state of the galaxy is the fault of humanity. They have to go. To create - y'know - tension.

Then, to the kits - new sculpts and options for the existing shrines. Rebuild Asurmen's shrine warriors as a new faction, but leave things open enough they can still build craftworld forces if they want.

Make each aspect kit a dual kit - to build an existing Aspect and a new type (like the Tau Fire Warrior/Breacher unit). Rebuild each existing Aspect with brand new rules and options (move the old Aspect rules to Legends?). Bring in some new Phoenix lords, to boot. And a complete reworking of the Avatar on par with a primarch. Throw in a new tank with no transport capacity that doesn't us the falcon kit.


Something like

Banshees - Sirens (melee troops)
Scorpions - Cobras (assassins)
Spiders - Krakens (assault)
Dragons - Chimera (anti-tank)
Hawks - Phoenixes (scouts)
Reapers - Hounds (ranged troops)


Oh lord no. . . Not that


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 04:27:04


Post by: Argive


PenitentJake wrote:
I'm loading up Dire Avengers because they're cheaper than Banshees and they're plastic, which means they're unlikely to be replaced. They're also troops, so there's that.

I haven't assembled or painted any CWE, but my concept flies in the face of Expert Crafters. I wanted a pure Aspect detachment- three units of Dire Avengers, three units of Banshees, Jain Zair and Asurmen; he was going to be the last model I bought in order to give GW the longest possible span of time to replace him with plastic.

And if they did, I'd be able to say I had a pure plastic Battalion of Aspect Warriors. Because of the specialized build, I'd use the Children of Khaine CW trait to add a point of damage to melee attacks on a six and the Superior Shurikens CW trait for an extra 4" range on everyone's gun. I'd kit one unit of Banshees with Slashing Impact for Mortal wounds on the charge in addition to war shout.

As for the Dire Avengers, I'd give them all Bladestorm instead of Battle Fortune for extra hits on exploding 6's and load the exarchs up with shimmer shields for the Invul.

I like this combination of CW Traits for pure Aspect Warriors better than the Biel Tan perks.

I also really like Iyanden Spirit Hosts as a second detachment to add some support for the Children of Khaine.

I'm not terribly competitive; I don't know if that would be decent on the table or not, but I like it for rule of cool. Whether it wins or not is a secondary concern.


I mean it could work in a casual/ semi competative games for sure and in smaller points games. All of that would only add up to 1.5k point . But it could literally take two redemptor dreads/ lotsa lasrifles or storm bolters to clear all of the aspects in one round of shooting+ morale. So youd need some wave serpents to hide in.

I would suggest having an autarch as well for reroll 1's.

Anyway this is the list you would run I gues?(see below)
Personally Id change up a couple of things.. But I can see it working against an average list. You can do some minor tweaks like give the Exarchs battle fortune and twin guns so they can tank for the squad if need be as in all likely hood you'd want them near Asurmen for that 4++

And Id run hunters of ancient relics with so many banshees. Potentially it would double their attack output. Also put a bunch of the DA in DS to keep them coming into the meat grinder and prevent them from getting shot T1.

I like the concept. I was thinking a similar list but with a horde of storm guardians and AOK for biel tan strat for funsies.

Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [90 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration [12CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Children of Khaine, Superior Shurikens

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ [15 PL, 285pts] +

Asurmen [8 PL, 160pts]: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, Defence Tactics, Hand of Asuryan, Shield of Grace, The Sword of Asur, Warlord

Jain Zar [7 PL, 125pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask, Blade of Destruction, Cry of War Unending, Silent Death, The Storm of Silence, War Shout

+ Troops [30 PL, 690pts] +

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

+ Elites [18 PL, 455pts] +

Howling Banshees [6 PL, 155pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask
. 9x Howling Banshee [135pts]: 9x Power Sword, 9x Shuriken Pistol
. Howling Banshee Exarch [20pts]: Shuriken Pistol & Executioner [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Decapitating Strike

Howling Banshees [6 PL, 150pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask
. 9x Howling Banshee [135pts]: 9x Power Sword, 9x Shuriken Pistol
. Howling Banshee Exarch [15pts]: Mirrorswords
. . Exarch Power: Whirling Blades

Howling Banshees [6 PL, 150pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask
. 9x Howling Banshee [135pts]: 9x Power Sword, 9x Shuriken Pistol
. Howling Banshee Exarch [15pts]: Mirrorswords
. . Exarch Power: Whirling Blades

+ Dedicated Transport [27 PL, 570pts] +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 190pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Spirit Stones [10pts], Transport, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher [40pts]

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 190pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Spirit Stones [10pts], Transport, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher [40pts]

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 190pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Spirit Stones [10pts], Transport, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher [40pts]

++ Total: [90 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++


I think this would genuinely win if you understand how to play the missions correctly vs a lot of lists. Thats 90+ bodies to chew through and 36 T7 wounds as well from the wave serpents. Some armies would not be able to break you quick enough to stop you running away with the VP. Especialy if asurmen + banshees can go to town and plow into their side of the board capping objectives.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 04:38:25


Post by: Insectum7


^I think that lists worst nightmare would be devilgaunts.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 05:09:21


Post by: ccs


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Swooping Hawks just don’t do....anything, so far as I can tell.


My 2nd favorite Aspect.
But I agree, beyond just looking cool, they haven't done much since their 2e days. But when I eventually get around to pulling my CWE out of storage I'll still include them in my force.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Fire Dragons can slag vehicles well enough - but need a transport to get into effective range - but all of the transport options can serve as longer range anti-tank. All of them risk being wasted in your list if your opponent doesn’t include their Victims Of Choice.


That's literally impossible as far as I'm concerned. Much like how I play meltas in my various SM forces, I am quite content to point those fusion guns at whatever my foe brings to the table.
Their transports? I always used them in the same way I use Razorbacks. FS with a transport option.
BTW, Firedragons are my favorite of the Aspects. They look cool AND carry fusion guns.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 05:28:32


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


The sad thing about Eldar is that even the plastic they have is not that great. I was also browsing their range the other day and stumbled across dire Avengers. I mean,just look at that sprue. It reminds me of historical ranges today, pretty straightforward, guns for everyone, a command sprue, pay 25€, get 20-30 models. But no, not with Eldar. Pay 25€ for an outdated sprue for a squad of 5.
Banshees? I know that new sets don't hold up to the awesome things from 5th/6th Edition because of their limited poses and few options, but they could have thrown anything new in there. They made new weapons whenever they overhauled their tactical SM squad, why is that not possible for Eldar?
The only thing that really works right now is a spirit host, as the Wraiths are great, the Flyer is great, wraithlord and wraith knight are great sets and even the Spiritseer is in Plastic.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 06:32:58


Post by: warmaster21


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The sad thing about Eldar is that even the plastic they have is not that great. I was also browsing their range the other day and stumbled across dire Avengers. I mean,just look at that sprue. It reminds me of historical ranges today, pretty straightforward, guns for everyone, a command sprue, pay 25€, get 20-30 models. But no, not with Eldar. Pay 25€ for an outdated sprue for a squad of 5.
Banshees? I know that new sets don't hold up to the awesome things from 5th/6th Edition because of their limited poses and few options, but they could have thrown anything new in there. They made new weapons whenever they overhauled their tactical SM squad, why is that not possible for Eldar?
The only thing that really works right now is a spirit host, as the Wraiths are great, the Flyer is great, wraithlord and wraith knight are great sets and even the Spiritseer is in Plastic.


I was really hoping when they redid banshees they would let aspect warriors take weapon options but they dissapointed there... and then releasing them so overpriced and holding them hostage for a bit in that godawful box was equally insulting. You never know when a hero held hostage in a box will get its own overprixed 40-50$ box, let alone a unit, could be a month, could be a year, could be never.

Then I compare it to something like bolt action (granted not the best quality models to exist) where I can get a box of 30 german infantry for 48$ coming with a decent spread of options compared to the Cadian infantry box which is 10 for 36$.

looking at the website, cadian box comes with 10 lasguns, 2 chainsword/pistols, 2 grenade launchers, 2 flamers, 2 radios, and accessories

opening up a box of german grenadiers comes with 4 identicle sprues and a 5th sprue of bases, with a spread of Rifles, smg's, assault rifles, LMG's, panzerfauts, and rifle grenades. easy proxy for various auto guns, heavy stubbers, missile launcher teams, grenade launchers (edit, replaced heavy bolter with heavy stubber)

hell gw has proven they cant even be bothered to give a spread of the "new" thing, looking at the chaos chaincannon, getting 1 in a box was one of the most disgusting thing GW has done with a kit.

I do hope someday eldar gets the rework it deserves. the ancient model line has been one of the things that have kept me out of picking up an eldar army, that and GW being the asshats that they are over the last decade. Though i havent seriously played 40k since 5th edition since I seem to have a knack at picking armies GW deletes from the game or doesn't support after their launch

My expectation for unshelving my DE army are already abysmally low, but at least we should get a feel at how eldar will be treated in 9th with how DE is treated in the next few weeks.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 07:02:56


Post by: Bosskelot


I think while there have been some good points raised, if anything was to change about any of this, 9th is the Edition for it to happen. GW have already shown willingness to overhaul rules and statlines kept stagnant for near 20 years with the books released so far. The giant Necron refresh at least provides precedent for the potential happening with Craftworlds too.

Personally I'd love a big Eldar and Tyranid update at the same time, with a Battlebox and storyline focused around the Laevenir War from the rulebook. But I'm also realistic in that GW updating two Xenos lines at the same time and also doing a box for them is basically not happening.

But who knows? AOS has always been a test bed for 40K, so maybe the way its 2nd Edition has been structured points to how 9th Edition will be.

Or maybe I'm just in the bargaining/denial stage of grief.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 08:17:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On the Aspect Warrior conundrum.

They, kinda like Marine Terminators, aren’t what they once were. They’ve lost their edge.

Fire Dragons still have some capacity to be nasty (certainly only a fool parks a vehicle near them). But....Wraithguard do exist. And they’re much tougher.

Striking Scorpions? Traditionally the melee bruisers. Lots of attacks, higher than army average strength. Except....Banshees now get +1 Strength from their Power Swords like everyone else. So...erm....why would I field Scorpions instead?

Certainly I feel no trepidation fighting those units, and all die more or less as easily as each other to moderately anti-infantry weapons, let alone the guff my Necrons can fart out all day long.

This is of course me looking from the outside in, so don’t take any as gospel. But on the off chance I’ve clocked an issue Eldar devotees share, you can probably say it does need addressing, and isn’t the result of “but I don’t want to have to think” type complaints.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 08:44:56


Post by: Da Boss


While reading the thread, I thought an interesting idea to represent the foresight of the Eldar would be allowing them to change up the order of the phases. Do shooting or combat first, movement last, something like that.

But the issues go a lot deeper than a gimmick. I think Eldar are in one of those phases where no one at the Studio really cares about them. Since they are quite unprofessional and undisciplined it seems, they are content to allow factions to wither on the vine in that situation unfortunately.

I am building small skirmish forces for a bunch of stuff for the 40K universe at the moment, and I decided my Eldar would be of the Dark Variety. Their kits are far cheaper, mostly a lot nicer, and visually very cohesive. I really like Aspect Warriors, but from GW they are overpriced and in a poor material or REALLY overpriced and in plastic.

Dire Avengers and Banshees both are plainly just a rip off testing the waters to see how high they can push the price. No way. If I decide I want to do the Aspect Warrior force I have in mind I'll just go looking for old metals on Ebay instead.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 08:52:26


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Addendum.

Craftworlds still feel somewhat stuck in the Rogue Trader era, or at least the Aspects do.

See, back then and in 2nd Ed, armies were typically pretty small. Certainly blob squads of the modern day didn’t debut until 30 strong Ork Mobz in 3rd Ed.

This meant equally small but super efficient units went a long, long way. Every squad deleted from your opponents line was a significant gap for them to cover. Losing two in a turn could spell curtains.

Now, not so much. This alone has defanged Aspect Warriors. They can’t have the same impact they once did, and they’ve gained nothing in terms of resilience. Other armies seems to have cushioned those changes better overall.

Maybe there’s a certain amount of familiarity breeding contempt. Because Eldar haven’t really changed since I got properly started around 1995, I still know want to expect. My target prioritisation hasn’t changed - but the tools I get to implement that have broadly improved.

This all feeds into the feel of them being somewhat left behind.

What the solution is? That’s for wiser minds than myself to suggest! But there needs to be one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though increasing the range of Guardians, and letting them take a Warlock as a unit leader seems popular, and justifiably necessary.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 09:08:56


Post by: SamusDrake


Of all the game companies, GW shouldn't have sculpts that are over two decades old - its embarrassing. And especially not for a faction that is one of the most iconic of the game.

The situation of the Ynnari is equally embarrassing; its the big new faction yet its codex is reduced to an article in White Dwarf? Either slap them in the Harlequin codex or select the most suitable units from all three eldar factions, give them Ynnari-specific datasheets and put them in their own codex. And what is the point of the Ynnari if one can't mix faction units in the same detachment? How are we supposed to mix it up in a "Combat Patrol" when we are only allowed one detachment? Might as well just go for one of the other three factions which do have a codex...

And for goodness sake its really no effort to introduce Ynnari to Kill Team. This really needs to happen in the next big product - whatever that might be.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 10:21:27


Post by: InVerno


Ok, thanks for this post, its always nice to see someone adressing the problem.

Firstly, the model, i am still playing with the same models my best buddy gifted to me in my childhood, the worst problem are not the models per se (some i admit are not so bad and are totally viable today, like all the vehicles) but the fact that when you play vs newer armies (specially SM) its literally embarassing, its like playing two different games, the scale its completely wrong and some phoenix lords are hilarius (asurmen lol)

The fact that got me mad the most its the fact that i really, REALLY, liked the new Jain Zar and banshee models (having and option to go without helm its awesome imho), and fielding them with the likes of i dunno, dark reapers? seems like you are playing with two armies and it feels uneven, so i really hope all the aspect gets the same love,because the new kits are awesome.

Secondly, lore wise, i was unbelevably happy when finally we had a place in the lore that was not a tragedy or a punching bag, ynnari was a answer, a key to all the problems, finally we could stand our ground, have our vengeance, fight and kill slaneesh

And then? i found out we probably were written just to ress bobby G and show how ultramarine and theyr primarch are cool, then we got two totally forgettable novels. i was mad, REALLY mad

And lastly, i get that SM prints money, but the hobby for me its getting more frustrating than ever, i see al my friends getting all the cool models, new player starting with SM (cause what sane lad starts with a 25yo army?) and the meta in my local its slowly becoming all space marines, and its not fun to see my whole army getting deleted turn 2 by eradicators (who tf designed theyr rules lol)

Well, this is my point of view, i really hope gw shows us some love and we finally get the love we deserve

But the new DE codex with just 1(!!) new models it dosnt sounds good for the knive eared (also atm lelith rules completly sucks)

Oh well, artel W its a nice alternative i guess









Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 10:29:22


Post by: dan2026


I just want to know why GW has left the Craftworld Eldar range in such a sad state.

Ancient models, most never making it to plastic.
Some dating back a good twenty years.
I just don't get it.

Do they want to do a massive range update like Necrons and bring the army into the 21st century?

Or do they want to cut their loses, scrap the range and start over with something brand new.

For heaven's sake do one of the two. Leaving the army in this weird living death limbo state is ridiculous.

How can anyone even think about getting into collecting Craftwords Eldar at the moment?
When they have no support from GW.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 10:43:14


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think I’m gonna defend Dark Eldar at this juncture.

As a complete range, they’ve done really quite well over the past 10 or so years since their total overhaul.

Sure, some Codex options (characters, true born and The Elite Wyches I Can’t Remember The Name Of Right Now) have fallen by the way side - and that shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.

But, for the most part, they’re in a far better place than Craftworlds. As I offered earlier, the range has a unifying design language, so the three constituent parts.

They may not be getting much new this Edition (or at least at this point, because we no longer seem tied to “Codex and that’s it until next Codex” releases), but from the same perspective of Outside Looking In, it seems to me the main thing they need are the plasticification of Grotesques, Archon’s Court, the Beastmaster and his Gribblies.

Rules wise I again shan’t comment due to lack of knowledge.

But as a range, they’re one of the more coherent available.

Nids likewise have done surprisingly well over then years. Each Codex has brought a decent number of new units, and eventually models. We’ve even seen stuff originally released in metal only a few years back plasticificated relatively soon after - a stark contrast to Craftworlds.

And that’s what I think I’m getting at most here. Saying Craftworld’s have received the poopy end of the stick isn’t to say no one else needs some spit and polish. Just that Craftworld need the big end, chassis, gangleflange and giggle stick replacing, a full on redo (but not reboot, please not a reboot) from the ground up. Others just need the tyres changing and maybe a new bumper.

And they need it desperately.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 10:47:08


Post by: dan2026


Exactly.

Most of the other semi neglected armies need an oil change and maybe a couple of new tyres.

Craftworlds never made it to the garage in the first place.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 10:54:48


Post by: Da Boss


Without wanting to derail the thread, Dark Eldar players are annoyed because since 5e they have only lost models. They've lost a bunch of their character models.

And along with that, they've lost options. They can't kitbash Archons onto Jetbikes and so on.

Whereas that was left as an option for Marine players. It's just an example of the double standard.

But I agree, the Dark Eldar range is nice. I was happy with what I was able to pick up to throw together a small raiding force. But I'm just dipping my toe in, I'm not a hardcore collector. If I was, I'd probably feel a bit more hard done by.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 10:58:38


Post by: dan2026


I think they will keep updating Dark Eldar bit by bit.
Now Leilith is on the way, I'd put money on Urien Rakarth coming next with a unit of Grotesques to accompany him.

Makes sense right?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:13:00


Post by: harlokin


 dan2026 wrote:
I think they will keep updating Dark Eldar bit by bit.
Now Leilith is on the way, I'd put money on Urien Rakarth coming next with a unit of Grotesques to accompany him.

Makes sense right?


Agree completely. The gaps in the Drukhari model line are modest, and easily fixable; and would be even easier if GW relaxed 'no model no rules'.

The Asuryani situation is shambolic in comparison.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:13:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Fair points on the DE aspect. Not sure I need to point out my General Ignorance any more - my posts speak for themselves!

Now. Here’s a genuine experiment, and I’m not sure how it’s gonna turn out. But I want to compare the treatment the Necrons just got, to what needs doing models wise with the Eldar.

Flicking through my Codex, Necrons got.....

3 new Cryptek sculpts (plus a Store Exclusive). The existing one isn’t terribly old either (no more than 3 years if memory serves?)
Skorpekh Destroyers
Ophydian Destroyers
Hexmark Destroyers
Necron Warriors (added in weapon option)
Heavy Destroyer
Skorpekh Lord
Silent King
Monolith
Void Dragon C’Tan
Flayed Ones (well, eventually!)
Illuminor Szeras
Canoptek Doomstalker
Convergence of Dominion
Canoptek Reanimator

14. 14 releases, and a mix of new and redo.

Am I happy with that as a Necron player? Hell yes I am. My army looks great. And I’m spoiled for choice in terms of what sort of Necron force I want to field.

That I’m also in-line to grab some bargains from Imperium is entirely incidental.

Craftworld? They need
Swooping Hawks
Fire Dragons
Warp Spiders
Striking Scorpions
Shining Spears
Phoenix Lords (at least some of them, but I reckon Maugan Ra still holds up today!)
Vyper
Falcon (how about an alternative to the Pulse Laser?)
Warlocks
Avatar (oh Lord is this a must! All other Daemons have been scoffing Naughty Steroids after all!)
Eldar Rangers
Guardians (at least duel kit with Storm Guardians. And do an Ork whilst your at it, slinging in a plastic Warlock as you did with the Nob)

That’s....erm....11, again counting the Phoenix Lords as a blob. Necron SC remain in Finecast, so maybe don’t get hopes up?

So a complete overhaul is within grasp - with room to add new units if they fancy.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:17:58


Post by: Karol


I just want to know why GW has left the Craftworld Eldar range in such a sad state.


They had other more money making stuff to sell first and AoS stuff to establish a new game.

At the same time eldar stuff seemed to have sold well as long as it had good or OP rules, so there was no reason to update models that were selling well enough.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:18:52


Post by: harlokin


Those ugly Walker things too, what an eyesore.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:21:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The War Walker?

I kinda like that kit.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:25:08


Post by: posermcbogus


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We’ve literally seen Jes Goodwin’s sketch books.


Honestly, this might be the most disappointing part of it all. Those sketchbooks - and, to a point, Eldar depictions in fluff etc. are so zany and intriguing that it just feels like an awful shame that Eldar are kind of locked into the same paradigm of army composition - spellcasters, guardians, aspects, autarchs, fast attack, transports, tanks and wraiths - when they have such potential. Considering that GW wrote themselves into a bit of a lore corner with the wider imperium, and the Space Marines, and then handwaved it away with "Ah. Yeah well, whenever you notice something like that, Cawl did it."
There's absolutely no reason GW couldn't throw in some more unusual stuff, that uses those images of fur-cloaked, pistol toting, wraithbone bekick-kanck'd , glorious, hoity-toity space knife-ears.
Like, we have guardians - great, no problem (some problem, they're old as dirt), they're mostly conscripts. But what would a unit of grizzled Eldar vets. look like? What would Eldar Marines (not Space Marines, Marine Marines, like for ship boarding etc.) look like? Give me princelings, diplomats, scryers and wraithbone-readers, a derth of characters like GSC got - comms guys, assassins, shamans!
When I look at the triumverate - though Ynari specific - I just drool. Really some of the best designs for characters GW have maybe ever done in 40k ( if only they were priced a bit more fairly! ) and a glimmering suggestion of what Olympian heights GW could achieve.
Like, who remembers the trailer for DOWIII? Remember those Banshees? They were stunning. I think I'm far from alone when I talk about the raw impact those designs had. While surely, rendering that kind of organic detail in plastic would be nigh-impossible (I would love GW to prove me wrong here...), I think we can all agree that by comparison the (¥7700 ) plastic kit is just limited and underwhelming.
I think it's all not helped, too, in terms of the goodwill of the Eldar player community, knowing that perhaps the most cynical model-selling tactic - dropping points to shift plastic - is pretty much confirmed to have be used on them. GW broke the balance of a codex to push new hotness deliberately. Like, it's disappointing to see a whole faction of the community used as cashcows, no?

Now, time for a patented McBogus Tinfoil Time™
There have been whispers for a while (confirmed? unconfirmed? I'm just some idiot on the internet, I'm not gonna check my sources! The burden of proof isn't a burden if my hands are too full of nachos to carry it!) that 40k was gonna get AOS'd until the fallout of 1st ed. scared old Geedubs into changing course. I don't think it's unrealistic, considering the revamp of:
Spess Marines (ad infinitum)
Chaos Spess Marines
Necrons
SoB
and probably orks, considering most of their recent releases seem to be sculpted more like Orruks (BONUS McBogus Tinfoil™ here, folks)

With that in mind, I don't imagine it's totally unrealistic that Eldar - and DEldar - were actually in for something much more radical, esp. considering all the Ynari stuff. If GW have felt like they've had to walk some stuff back, it could well be at a loss for where to go next...

Spoilered for ultra-tinfoil plated tinfoil™

Spoiler:
I think GW are going to push on with 40kAOS, just after 9th. This edition is already groaning with bloat, tons of players have gotten really jaded with the flow of this and the tail end of the previous edition. I don't reckon it's got more than 2 years in it, and as people start to flock to AOS instead, it'd give Notts the perfect chance for everything to go exactly as planned


Okay, tinfoil off, putting the fizzy drink down, and having a nice sit down on the quiet step with mummy.
TLDR; Yeah, this sucks, dudes. Eldar players - I hope you get fun new minis soon, and don't have to scour ebay for metals to have to avoid how fubar Eldar finecast minis always are.
Everyone else except Primaris Marine collectors, I hope you all get cool toys soon, too, because more friends with more toys is more good.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:28:10


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Thoughts on the Vyper specifically?

Make it a better gunship.

With 8th and 9th Ed removing weaker side and rear armour, it’s manouverability is less of an advantage. I mean, it’s still nice to have of course.

But right now, it’s just a speedy platform for a single heavy weapon. Yes, you can swap out the twin Shuriken Catapults for a Shuriken Cannon - but not without converting.

Give it a choice of secondary weapon. Let it be as flexible a platform as the humble Landspeeder.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:33:02


Post by: Karol


Isn't the vyper much cheaper then the landspeeder, and there is already a two heavy weapon type of vyper from FW, and eldar players don't seem to be using those en mass.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 11:51:30


Post by: A.T.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So a complete overhaul is within grasp - with room to add new units if they fancy.
That's a big difference though. The majority of the cron units are new (or getting rid of costly transparent pieces) whereas all of your listed craftworld units are existing units with models.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I’m gonna defend Dark Eldar at this juncture.
As a complete range, they’ve done really quite well over the past 10 or so years since their total overhaul.
The old release tracker doesn't go past mid 2016. What have they actually had in the past half dozen years aside from units pulled from the codex?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 12:36:26


Post by: the_scotsman


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Rules wise I again shan’t comment due to lack of knowledge.


Unfortunately, GW made them fairly miserable to play in 9th. They took what was already a fairly small range, and split it into 3 for no reason, dividing them up exactly as much as any other two factions in the game that share an alliance keyword. Wych Cult and Haemonculus Coven units are as compatible as Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard. Then they declared that another large chunk of units just...don't get to have army-wide special rules, for no real reason. Dark Eldar have always been an army of mercenary units that work together because they got hired by some archon or schemer person (that'd be, um, you the player) but GW decided "nope, this...snake man thing who isn't even a dark eldar, he's part of the Kabals, but these dark eldar with wings, they're mercenaries and such never ever ever get any traits, you just have to fight against your opponent who gets 2 chapter tactics rules, doctrines and superdoctrines and hope for the best!"

Also, when they were going ahead and making that division between the subfactions, they decided to take all the anti-light infantry stuff and make it one subfaction, then all the antitank stuff and make it another subfaction, and all the heavy durable stuff and make it the third one. Thanks, GW, gonna be really easy to make a coherent army out of that! Like if Space Marine captains and lieutenants could only give aura buffs to space marine troops, and in order to get any unit with a lascannon you had to take a mandatory pair of Techmarine HQs in a separate detachment, and for some reason dreadnoughts didn't get chapter tactics because they're just too old.

that combined with the fact that they're transport-based in an edition that makes transports just laughably bad at what they're intended to do, and their HQ section is absolutely miserable and boring, they really do just have the model range that is incredibly incredibly gorgeous. everyone should build and paint a dark eldar army, it's just the most liberating exercise in enjoyable kitbashing, but for gods sake never put them on the fething table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So a complete overhaul is within grasp - with room to add new units if they fancy.
That's a big difference though. The majority of the cron units are new (or getting rid of costly transparent pieces) whereas all of your listed craftworld units are existing units with models.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I’m gonna defend Dark Eldar at this juncture.
As a complete range, they’ve done really quite well over the past 10 or so years since their total overhaul.
The old release tracker doesn't go past mid 2016. What have they actually had in the past half dozen years aside from units pulled from the codex?


2016 was after the wracks and plastic HQs, so...

Drazar, incubi, and lelith for the past 2 editions.

Hey, doin' better than craftworld and harlequins....


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:08:15


Post by: A.T.


the_scotsman wrote:
2016 was after the wracks and plastic HQs, so...
Drazar, incubi, and lelith for the past 2 editions.
Hey, doin' better than craftworld and harlequins....
Drazar and the Incubi were released alongside Jain Zar and the Banshees, and Lelith isn't here quite yet...

The last DE update listed before that was the smallish Haemonculus Covens in 2014 (haemonculus, wracks, voidraven, succumbus, archon), just after the 2013 craftworlds releases (wraithknight, wraithguard, Illic, farseer, hemlock, hunter).
Harlies were 2015 (6 kits) along with autarch/farseer/warlock models and windriders. Eldrad in 2016, Spiritseer in 2018, and that named ranger whenever he came out. Also the pariah :p

-so if you set aside the long awaited (and I mean looooooooooong awaited 5e DE update, my god they were old) and just look at 6e and onwards the craftworlders appear to have actually outpaced the DE a little.

-------------------------

Lets see, new source...
Guard - sly marbo and severina raine. And that's it since the scions came out (also 2014)
Tyranids since 2014 ? Nothing, really? The list does not look comprehensive but I can't offhand think of anything for them either.
GK of course are dead (RIP 2011)
Tau are quiet but relatively up to date
And orks got a big vehicle pack that apparently I completely missed.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:21:53


Post by: Overread


Honestly Tyranids have done really well over the years. Yes they've not had anything new in a long time, but what they've got is really great overall. About the only thing people hate are things like gaunts still having split heads when assembling; but otherwise their range has aged well and kept up to date. Even things like chunky big ball and socket arms just work for them as part of their partly insectoid designs and such.

Tyranids are in a position where they don't need a big update; if they got one the onyl way to take it would be a major redesign of their asthetics


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:24:03


Post by: dhallnet


A.T. wrote:

-so if you set aside the long awaited (and I mean looooooooooong awaited 5e DE update, my god they were old) and just look at 6e and onwards the craftworlders appear to have actually outpaced the DE a little.
.

12 years old, it's not particularly long for GW. They were rather outdated aesthetically than old. No other range got a full update ten years after its creation as far as I can tell.
And CWE got twice the amount of releases than DE from 6th to 8th (and probably in general, being a tad bit older).

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Dark_Eldar
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Eldar


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:25:44


Post by: dan2026


 Overread wrote:
Honestly Tyranids have done really well over the years. Yes they've not had anything new in a long time, but what they've got is really great overall. About the only thing people hate are things like gaunts still having split heads when assembling; but otherwise their range has aged well and kept up to date. Even things like chunky big ball and socket arms just work for them as part of their partly insectoid designs and such.

Tyranids are in a position where they don't need a big update; if they got one the onyl way to take it would be a major redesign of their asthetics

With the new rumor engine today its looking likely that at least two old tyranids kits might be updated soon.
Lictor and the Red Terror.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:26:17


Post by: addnid


I also fear unfortunately for eldar players, GW is going to go the exodite way, and no new CW models will appear.
I would be sad for you guys, you deserve a necron treatment, but rescaling and redoing the 20 year old kits just seems like a bad business move. Creating exodites on the other hand, that seems like an incredible cash cow, customers will go nuts !
I hope I am wrong and that CW gets the necron / sista treatment, fingers crossed for you guys


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:28:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 dan2026 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Honestly Tyranids have done really well over the years. Yes they've not had anything new in a long time, but what they've got is really great overall. About the only thing people hate are things like gaunts still having split heads when assembling; but otherwise their range has aged well and kept up to date. Even things like chunky big ball and socket arms just work for them as part of their partly insectoid designs and such.

Tyranids are in a position where they don't need a big update; if they got one the onyl way to take it would be a major redesign of their asthetics

With the new rumor engine today its looking likely that at least two old tyranids kits might be updated soon.
Lictor and the Red Terror.


Speaking of which....

Craftworld Eldar have never featured in the Rumour Engine.

At all.

Ever.

Not once.



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:28:58


Post by: Lord Clinto


 Mezmorki wrote:
I love Eldar, and they are my favorite race (and i have about 4,000 points of them still from back in the 2nd edition era).

But I also think Eldar are in need of more than just a model refresh. Looking a lot of the other armies at this point, the Eldar I feel really lack character. Part of the that is the models, but part of it comes down to things like unit customization and wargear, and what that means in turns for kit basing and models. I also don't know how you change that without disrupting things too much. But I had a few thoughts...

The lore talks about the various aspect paths, and how many warrior walk multiple paths. What if units of aspect warriors worked such that you could run a "pure" aspect list, but could also make hybrid aspect units. Imagine warp spider jump generators coupled to a striking scorpion close combat kit. Or swooping dragons, etc. I think there could be some opportunity to make units more customizable and unique and shake up the static nature of the eldar units.

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.


I like this idea for Aspect Warriors but I could see GW advancing the "dying race" trope and possibly retconning the lore so that due to the so few Craftworlder's remaining they start joining Aspect Warriors into Deathwatch style squads.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:30:20


Post by: addnid


 dan2026 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Honestly Tyranids have done really well over the years. Yes they've not had anything new in a long time, but what they've got is really great overall. About the only thing people hate are things like gaunts still having split heads when assembling; but otherwise their range has aged well and kept up to date. Even things like chunky big ball and socket arms just work for them as part of their partly insectoid designs and such.

Tyranids are in a position where they don't need a big update; if they got one the onyl way to take it would be a major redesign of their asthetics

With the new rumor engine today its looking likely that at least two old tyranids kits might be updated soon.
Lictor and the Red Terror.


Nids haven't received one new thing all 8th and 9th, so seems fair


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:31:38


Post by: Overread


 dan2026 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Honestly Tyranids have done really well over the years. Yes they've not had anything new in a long time, but what they've got is really great overall. About the only thing people hate are things like gaunts still having split heads when assembling; but otherwise their range has aged well and kept up to date. Even things like chunky big ball and socket arms just work for them as part of their partly insectoid designs and such.

Tyranids are in a position where they don't need a big update; if they got one the onyl way to take it would be a major redesign of their asthetics

With the new rumor engine today its looking likely that at least two old tyranids kits might be updated soon.
Lictor and the Red Terror.


Red Terror - lictor/deathleaper - biovore/pyrovore

The 3 kits that Tyranids need to go fully plastic.

Thereafter they could do with a no-split-head gaunt update; perhaps then adding in things like shriekes and parasite of mortox and other things that were in the army and have been lost.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:36:04


Post by: dan2026


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Honestly Tyranids have done really well over the years. Yes they've not had anything new in a long time, but what they've got is really great overall. About the only thing people hate are things like gaunts still having split heads when assembling; but otherwise their range has aged well and kept up to date. Even things like chunky big ball and socket arms just work for them as part of their partly insectoid designs and such.

Tyranids are in a position where they don't need a big update; if they got one the onyl way to take it would be a major redesign of their asthetics

With the new rumor engine today its looking likely that at least two old tyranids kits might be updated soon.
Lictor and the Red Terror.


Speaking of which....

Craftworld Eldar have never featured in the Rumour Engine.

At all.

Ever.

Not once.


Yeah I know.

Which is weird. Really weird.
It almost leads credence to the idea that maybe the Craftworlds range might be sunsetted completely to make way for something else.

I just don't understand it honestly. I've always considered the Eldar to be one of the pillars of the 40k universe. But GW is seemingly leaving them to rot.

Put it this way. If they don't get a Necron sized update this year. I don't think they ever will.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:36:43


Post by: Nurglitch


Well, they are a dying race...


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:40:15


Post by: Eldarsif


Craftworld was my original army that I still love dearly. I have a large amount of them, but I rarely - if ever - find a reason to buy them off GW as the secondary market is full of used models that just need some paint stripping. At this point I just can't see it being healthy for GW to continue this path of doing nothing as people will just go to ebay to fill their CW needs, bypassing any and all sales on the GW website.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 13:55:23


Post by: Marshal Loss


Interesting discussion(s).

If & when GW give CWE the 9th ed Necron treatment, I'll be there wallet in hand. Always wanted to collect a Biel-tan army since I was a kid but can't stomach the ancient models. Until that day, no thanks.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 14:03:03


Post by: InVerno


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Honestly Tyranids have done really well over the years. Yes they've not had anything new in a long time, but what they've got is really great overall. About the only thing people hate are things like gaunts still having split heads when assembling; but otherwise their range has aged well and kept up to date. Even things like chunky big ball and socket arms just work for them as part of their partly insectoid designs and such.

Tyranids are in a position where they don't need a big update; if they got one the onyl way to take it would be a major redesign of their asthetics

With the new rumor engine today its looking likely that at least two old tyranids kits might be updated soon.
Lictor and the Red Terror.


Speaking of which....

Craftworld Eldar have never featured in the Rumour Engine.

At all.

Ever.

Not once.




Pls no, dont hurt me more than i am


I cant really understand GW plan



But how can they sunset/squat the whole range while they made Jain Zar and bashee a year ago? dosnt make too much sense

If you ask me they will make new units for ynnari and call it a day


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 14:14:34


Post by: petrov27


Eldar are why I got into the hobby - still recall seeing the original releases from Rogue Trader days in WD and eventually in person so long ago and thinking wow those are cool designs.

Given the current state of the range/faction it is super disappointing. My fear is they will be squatted all together given the utter lack of any info for them in 9th ed.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 14:36:27


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Karol wrote:
Isn't the vyper much cheaper then the landspeeder, and there is already a two heavy weapon type of vyper from FW, and eldar players don't seem to be using those en mass.


The Hornet suffers from the FW wheel of random misfortune of points value, (and being a smidge on the spendy side), especially in 9th where the +1/-1 rule bites it hard, but both it and the Vyper lose out to the War Walker as it has a ++ save

The state of the CWE range is really poor, possibly even very poor indeed, I gave up on 40k around 2012 or so but still like to keep an eye on things, as relearning would be a stretch for my aging grey matter, and the only model that caught my eye was the jetseer, although I suspect they'd outchunk my Chapterhouse ones by some margin


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 14:38:18


Post by: harlokin


 Marshal Loss wrote:
Interesting discussion(s).

If & when GW give CWE the 9th ed Necron treatment, I'll be there wallet in hand. Always wanted to collect a Biel-tan army since I was a kid but can't stomach the ancient models. Until that day, no thanks.


Same for me exactly, right down to the fondness for Biel-tan.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 14:55:06


Post by: A.T.


dhallnet wrote:
12 years old, it's not particularly long for GW. They were rather outdated aesthetically than old. No other range got a full update ten years after its creation as far as I can tell
11-12 years without a single release when your faction has about the same unit depth and metal-composition as oldcrons. They were entirely obsolete as a range.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 15:04:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Guess it was only a matter of time, but my sad little mind now has to make a comparison to Marines.

Please note, this is not an anti-Marine thing, but an observation about intended playstyles, and possible play styles.

Essentially, Primaris specifically have heavily encroached on Craftworld turf.

Eldar used to be the home of super specialisation. Aspect Warriors being their expression of it. Each squad as previously covered basically excels at one thing, and can’t really do much outside of that niche.

Yet Primaris have at the time of writing gained Eradicators (short ranged anti-tank), Infiltrators (sneaky, mobile HTH), Eliminators (Snipers par excellence), Aggresors (deleters of light and medium infantry), Inceptors (speedy and shooty). Plus others.

Those......those are Aspect Warriors on steroids!.

Eradicators do the job of Fire Dragons. Eliminators do the job of Rangers (they’re pretty much an Aspect in intent)
Suppressors do the job of Dark Reapers.
Intercessors are to Tactical as Dire Avengers are to Guardians
Aggressors do the job of Warp Spiders, trading mobility for resilience)
Infiltrators Reivers kinda combine Scorpions and Banshees

Sure, none of them get Exarchs. But with their native abilities, do they need them?

Craftworlds need to claw those roles back.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 15:06:03


Post by: Imateria


The state of the Drukhari and Craftworld armies is weird. Drukhari haven't had a single new unit added to the codex since the 2010 refresh, have only had failcast updated to plastic (and the Voidraven finally given it's first model), and actually lost units (everyone laments the named characters but we had 2 types of Haemonculus in 5th and the Trueborn and Bloodbrides are now gone as well leaving Wych Cults and Kabal without any elite units to choose from other than mercenaries, the_sotsman has covered why this is aweful). In the same space of time Craftworlds have had more model releases in total, actually gained 3 new units in the Wraithknight and Flyers (4 if you want to count Wraithblades as well) and not lost any units. Yet Drukhari still feels like a more complete and cohesive model range.

I think it's impossible to split the dissinterest in the model range from the player base and the state of the armies rules. I find it interesting that the Banshees and Incubi came out at the same time and both have been criticised for only being a mild update on their existing designs (I think that was a good thing, they both looked amazing already) but I see a lot more people buying and painting up the Incubi than I do the Banshees. Some of that is impending new codex for Drukhari but it's been going on for more than a year now, the difference I reckon is that when they came there was a notable difference in how the rules for the respective units were treated. Incubi got a minor improvement with their extra damage on 6's going from being Klaivex only to the whole squad while Drazhar got buffed into an absolute murder machine that also buffs Incubi (at this point I would say he was unarguably the best Phoenix Lord) making them a viable option and we've seen both units get buffed again with extra S and D in the previews and leaks for the new codex so are going to see even more people buying and using them.

In comparison Banshees were completely unchanged and gained absolutely nothing new leaving them in the godaweful position of being an elite melee unit with two strength 3 attacks each while Jain Zar actually got worse by having a really powerful defensive rule replaced with an incredibly useless anti horde ability. Nobody wants to buy an extremely pricey set of 5 models when they are objectively aweful on the table top. They've since had a slight buff to S4 with the update to Power Swords at the start of 9th but even so they still bounce of Marines and then die. At this point Necron Warriors are a bigger melee threat than they are.

This problem extends across the whole army where a lot of it hasn't had any significant stats update since 3rd ed other than the translation to 8th, we're at a position now where the Farseer is literally the only infantry unit in the entire army thats any good at it's assigned role.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Guess it was only a matter of time, but my sad little mind now has to make a comparison to Marines.

Please note, this is not an anti-Marine thing, but an observation about intended playstyles, and possible play styles.

Essentially, Primaris specifically have heavily encroached on Craftworld turf.

Eldar used to be the home of super specialisation. Aspect Warriors being their expression of it. Each squad as previously covered basically excels at one thing, and can’t really do much outside of that niche.

Yet Primaris have at the time of writing gained Eradicators (short ranged anti-tank), Infiltrators (sneaky, mobile HTH), Eliminators (Snipers par excellence), Aggresors (deleters of light and medium infantry), Inceptors (speedy and shooty). Plus others.

Those......those are Aspect Warriors on steroids!.

Eradicators do the job of Fire Dragons. Eliminators do the job of Rangers (they’re pretty much an Aspect in intent)
Suppressors do the job of Dark Reapers.
Intercessors are to Tactical as Dire Avengers are to Guardians
Aggressors do the job of Warp Spiders, trading mobility for resilience)
Infiltrators kinda combine Scorpions and Banshees

Sure, none of them get Exarchs. But with their native abilities, do they need them?

Craftworlds need to claw those roles back.

I would argue that the game has been moving towards specialists for a long time now across all ranges, generalists don't tend to work very well. Most armies now have units that are only capable of doing one job and even those that have units that can kit out for multiple roles are always built for the specific role the player needs them for (you don't mix melta's and flamers in Retributors for instance).

I don't see this as a bad thing so long as those units are given there own flavour, Aspect Warriors have lost this due to GW ongoing neglect.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 15:15:58


Post by: Voss


Eradicators do the job of Fire Dragons. Eliminators do the job of Rangers (they’re pretty much an Aspect in intent)

Sure on the first. Not so much on the second. The small squad size doesn't really do the job and the las fusil is another role entirely.
Suppressors do the job of Dark Reapers.

Wellll...
Intercessors are to Tactical as Dire Avengers are to Guardians

Ok, seems reasonable
Aggressors do the job of Warp Spiders, trading mobility for resilience)

hmmm. Not really
Infiltrators kinda combine Scorpions and Banshees

Is this a joke?

Beyond eradicators and intercessors, I don't think this parallel works at all. Infiltrators and scorps/banshees don't overlap _in nay way_. Its just a basic gun unit that forward deploys, and pushes deep strike denial.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 15:19:22


Post by: Imateria


^I think he meant Reivers more than Infiltrators, which makes mroe sense.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 15:20:08


Post by: dan2026


When the Banshees and Jain Zar got released separately I bought them. 10 Banshees and 1 Jair Zar.

Mainly because I like the models, but also because I want to start an Aspect Warrior focused army and I wanted to vote with my wallet as it were to get more.
But I doubt that many people would do the same.

Its not the rules that put people off Eldar (although of course they could be better) its the lack of models. I am certain of this.

How can any new customer be persuaded to start a new Eldar army when 75% of the range does not have a current plastic kit.
Hell they don't even sell the crappy resin models except via thier website.

Basically the ball is in GWs court. Put money into updating the Eldar range (like Necrons), then people will have a reason to buy.



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 15:42:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Imateria wrote:
^I think he meant Reivers more than Infiltrators, which makes mroe sense.


I did indeed. My mistake!


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 16:09:12


Post by: Da Boss


I think the bafflement about why GW leave money on the table with Eldar come down to a couple of things.
I think the money people in the business don't have a clear idea about which factions will or won't sell well apart from Space Marines and nostalgia. So they are not super interested in the other releases, perhaps.
And I think the Design Studio is not that professional in how it works. If people in there are enthusiastic about something, it happens, if they are not, it doesn't. Seems to me like their scope for creativity has also been lessened somewhat by the demand to have this double-word naming scheme for most stuff to be IP defensible. I can imagine it is not as fun to work there as it used to be. So looks like nobody at the Design Studio wants to champion Eldar or has any ideas for them any more, so they are not getting updated because of that. Someone was keen on Genestealer Cults, someone finally got inspired about Sisters, but the Eldar seem to be less of a priority.

So maybe eventually one of them changes their mind, but I don't get the feeling they do this stuff out of a sense of what would be "fair" or which faction has been languishing the longest. They've often left factions to wither on the vine and rather than malice from the money men I think it's more likely lack of interest from the Design Studio that causes that.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 16:18:58


Post by: Galas


One of the biggest appeals of Elves in any setting is that they are THE ELITE guys on the block.

They may be fragile and not have a hard punch but they surely feel like better than everyone else. You have that in LOTR, you have that in Fantasy. You don't have that in 40k.

Lets also mention the fact that Eldar, of elves, have only the pointy ears. Theres nothing in their fluff and fantasy that would appeal to normal elf fans, and I saw this time and time again when most of my elf-lover friends that don't touch eldars with a 10 foot pole, instead going for stuff like slaanesh demons, thousand sons, etc...


But at the end of the day if bald-pink miners with a rip-off of Alien fluff can receive two big plastic waves, nothing but GW stops eldar for receiving the same.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 16:23:26


Post by: LunarSol


I kind of assume Eldar run into a few issues:

- GW isn't particularly inspired by them currently. The elf aesthetic is hard to really nail as we've seen through all the Sigmar experimentation and things like the Ynarri. I get the impression GW wants to really redesign the faction, but isn't exactly sure how.

- They're almost always competitive, meaning there's regularly large purchases of much of the range. Eldar are probably the poster boys for codex release > clear backstock. They've long been the "Spikes" faction and GW seems happy to keep that audience happy with strong rules until recently.

It's still baffling through. The range is ancient and looks super dated. I'm regularly surprised GW hasn't done more with them.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 16:31:19


Post by: Ielthan


 LunarSol wrote:
I kind of assume Eldar run into a few issues:

- GW isn't particularly inspired by them currently. The elf aesthetic is hard to really nail as we've seen through all the Sigmar experimentation and things like the Ynarri. I get the impression GW wants to really redesign the faction, but isn't exactly sure how.

- They're almost always competitive, meaning there's regularly large purchases of much of the range. Eldar are probably the poster boys for codex release > clear backstock. They've long been the "Spikes" faction and GW seems happy to keep that audience happy with strong rules until recently.

It's still baffling through. The range is ancient and looks super dated. I'm regularly surprised GW hasn't done more with them.


Vehicles still look great, it's just the aspects and guardians (would love a less uniform look to them) that need new models.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 16:37:15


Post by: Grumblewartz


I find it incredibly odd what GW has done to Craftworld Eldar. They used to be the 2nd most popular army after Space Marines. I think Tau took a lot of their thunder when they were released. As I recall, Eldar's main strength back in those days was their shooting (especially all the bright lances) back when you could explode a vehicle in one shot. Then came Tau with their railguns that made a mockery of everyone else's anti-tank. Their crisis suits also had the same move-shoot-move as eldar jetbikes. Combined with the fact that Tau were a fresh, new army, and then came the Drukhari refresh and Harlequin release, it just left Eldar in the dust.

It's still baffling to me though. I was one of those people who never made an eldar army because a lot of the units I liked were resin and the worst kind - fragile, slender, and designed as crisp/clean models (which GW resin is not really capable of maintaining). Look at Necrons in comparison. They were a newer army, had a complete redesign, received multiple new kits, then had what amounted to a 3rd redesign in the most recent release.

For such an iconic army, I can't understand why they haven't at least released plastic kits for the resin models.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 16:42:44


Post by: Ielthan


 Grumblewartz wrote:
I find it incredibly odd what GW has done to Craftworld Eldar. They used to be the 2nd most popular army after Space Marines. I think Tau took a lot of their thunder when they were released. As I recall, Eldar's main strength back in those days was their shooting (especially all the bright lances) back when you could explode a vehicle in one shot. Then came Tau with their railguns that made a mockery of everyone else's anti-tank. Their crisis suits also had the same move-shoot-move as eldar jetbikes. Combined with the fact that Tau were a fresh, new army, and then came the Drukhari refresh and Harlequin release, it just left Eldar in the dust.

It's still baffling to me though. I was one of those people who never made an eldar army because a lot of the units I liked were resin and the worst kind - fragile, slender, and designed as crisp/clean models (which GW resin is not really capable of maintaining). Look at Necrons in comparison. They were a newer army, had a complete redesign, received multiple new kits, then had what amounted to a 3rd redesign in the most recent release.

For such an iconic army, I can't understand why they haven't at least released plastic kits for the resin models.


I think you're on to something with that, maybe not the first Tau book, but later editions. Also it's pretty easy to paint Tau to a nice standard, Eldar are quite tough for most people.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 16:54:49


Post by: Argive


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Aspect Warrior conundrum.

They, kinda like Marine Terminators, aren’t what they once were. They’ve lost their edge.
.


I disagree on that point. Termiantors are pretty good again.

But thats becasue they got 3W now and aces to invulns as well as heaps and heaps of rules in an game that got vastly more deadly...

Eldar aspects? Still T3 1W. Its just night and day.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 17:19:41


Post by: LunarSol


Ielthan wrote:

Vehicles still look great, it's just the aspects and guardians (would love a less uniform look to them) that need new models.


Right. The vehicles look great. I'm talking about the Eldar people figures themselves. Good distinction.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 18:01:32


Post by: A.T.


 Grumblewartz wrote:
I find it incredibly odd what GW has done to Craftworld Eldar. They used to be the 2nd most popular army after Space Marines. I think Tau took a lot of their thunder when they were released
Eldar were top dogs in various forms throughout 3rd and 4th, both they and tau were equally outdated in 5th, and then 6th edition gave us the taudar.

So... perhaps?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 18:05:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think it’s fascinating that we’re four pages in, and whilst peeps have different suggestions, we are all seemingly in agreement Craftworlds need some work.

That to me suggests that GW must be similarly aware there is a clear problem with the range. I just can’t conceive of them not seeing it.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 18:12:53


Post by: Overread


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think it’s fascinating that we’re four pages in, and whilst peeps have different suggestions, we are all seemingly in agreement Craftworlds need some work.

That to me suggests that GW must be similarly aware there is a clear problem with the range. I just can’t conceive of them not seeing it.


Well don't forget some management in GW at some stage thought that AoS launch was a good idea


Which might be the issue; it could be that lower down staff or in different departments do see the issue; but the upper management or middle management don't see the issue; or don't see sales reflecting it or don't see a potential return on investment big enough to warrant a big update compared to other updates e tc... IT could be a whole mish mash of things that keeps causing Eldar to be put to one side.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 18:16:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Here’s some wild ideas. Please note I’ve no idea if these are at all practicable. Each is intended to reflect that when the Eldar take the field, they’ve a clear purpose, and some knowledge of what the enemy will do.

1. Some form of veto or swapping mechanism for the opponent’s secondary objectives.

2. Definitely, definitely Warlock Squad Leaders. They shouldn’t just be hanging around each other like they’re The Cool Kids

3. Perks to manouverability. Traditionally, Eldar are meant to be a frustrating foe - like trying to nail the ocean to the wall. The downside was when you got it wrong, the sea and your happy sack got nailed to the wall at the same time.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 18:47:15


Post by: Bosskelot


The whole GW studio is very insular and plays to the beat of its own drum. I have no doubt that plenty of people within it see no issue with the current state of the CWE range because there's a substantial portion of the company that assumes Space Marines are everybodys main army. Who cares if the space elves are languishing? They're not your main army, are they? Not even your second one since that's still Marines of some flavour.

Let's not forget that they were floored at the overwhelming demand for plastic Sisters of Battle because they couldn't conceive the army had any potential popularity because it's then-current range sold like dogshit. This was combined with absolutely nobody within the studio caring about the army either.

Of course that survey and the very obvious positive optics of actually having female models in your game (as well as seeing the success of female Stormcast) has probably opened their eyes a little. One can only hope that the tsunami of complaints and discussion online about the state of Craftworlds is not something they're blind or deaf to, nor the obvious strengths of it being a range very open to having a 50/50 gender split in its minis.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 18:51:44


Post by: Dysartes


Racerguy180 wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....


Dammit, now why'd ya have ta bring that up


Simple - if people want to complain about "Elves in Space" getting so little love (defined as three factions, plus three special characters in their own little bubble) - I'm going to point out that one of the other mainstay fantasy races in space has gotten a much worse end of the stick.

When you're doing worse than Halflings in Space and Ogres in Space, it feels a bit off when someone complains about "so little love" for pointy-ears in space.

And I'm not saying that Kraftwerld Eldar don't need some attention, but "so little love"? Please...


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 18:57:53


Post by: Flinty


Maybe another means to get at the "they know what you're going to do" schtick is to give them means for moving opponents models. I remember it being a powerful effect from a while back with a previous edition of Slaanesh force. I forget the name of the power/artefact that permitted it. Lash princes or something.

That would enable Eldar to have a bit of design space that hasn't been terribly deeply explored, as well as providing the means to both enable increased damage on their part (pulling units out of cover and/or into range) as well.as mitigating return fire (pushing units out of range or in behind cover).

Also nails the "damnit those space elves are annoying" bit as well


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:05:56


Post by: PenitentJake


 Flinty wrote:
Maybe another means to get at the "they know what you're going to do" schtick is to give them means for moving opponents models. I remember it being a powerful effect from a while back with a previous edition of Slaanesh force. I forget the name of the power/artefact that permitted it. Lash princes or something.

That would enable Eldar to have a bit of design space that hasn't been terribly deeply explored, as well as providing the means to both enable increased damage on their part (pulling units out of cover and/or into range) as well.as mitigating return fire (pushing units out of range or in behind cover).

Also nails the "damnit those space elves are annoying" bit as well


Aahh- the Pavane of Slaanesh- a Masque + six heralds, each leading a six-strong unit of Daemonettes. They dance, EVERYBODY dances- including your enemies. Good times...


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:09:38


Post by: Karol


 Imateria wrote:
^I think he meant Reivers more than Infiltrators, which makes mroe sense.

Specially considering how often both options gets used.

I disagree on that point. Termiantors are pretty good again.

But thats becasue they got 3W now and aces to invulns as well as heaps and heaps of rules in an game that got vastly more deadly...

The DA and DG termintors are good. The other not so much, and a lot of armies don't even have 3W termintors. 1ksons, csm and GK have them a 2W, but costing as if they had 3.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:11:01


Post by: jaredb


 Flinty wrote:
Maybe another means to get at the "they know what you're going to do" schtick is to give them means for moving opponents models. I remember it being a powerful effect from a while back with a previous edition of Slaanesh force. I forget the name of the power/artefact that permitted it. Lash princes or something.



The Lash of Submission was a very abusive psychic power back in its time. There is something very unfun about abilities which let your opponent move your models.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:11:04


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Karol wrote:

But thats becasue they got 3W now and aces to invulns as well as heaps and heaps of rules in an game that got vastly more deadly...

The DA and DG termintors are good. The other not so much, and a lot of armies don't even have 3W termintors. 1ksons, csm and GK have them a 2W, but costing as if they had 3.


we're obviously talking about the codexes that did get 9th-edition'ed. Not the ones that are still stuck in 8th because of GW stupid release logic.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:32:15


Post by: yukishiro1


Eldar profiles were outdated even in 8th, now they're just a joke. And the Incubi profile they showed a while ago shows they're still committed to keeping eldar as T3 1W infantry, even though the rest of the game has passed that by completely. So I wouldn't expect that Aspect Warriors are going to move up from bargain basement garbage any time soon either.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:39:01


Post by: the_scotsman


yukishiro1 wrote:
Eldar profiles were outdated even in 8th, now they're just a joke. And the Incubi profile they showed a while ago shows they're still committed to keeping eldar as T3 1W infantry, even though the rest of the game has passed that by completely. So I wouldn't expect that Aspect Warriors are going to move up from bargain basement garbage any time soon either.


"Space Marines" /= "The Rest Of The Game."

Guard Sisters Tau Eldar GSC Nids Necrons etc etc etc etc etc still use 1W infantry as a baseline. It's literally just the marines that have been elevated.

We're doing a "Marines feel overpowered" edition. Since marines are 99.99% of the play meta but also are supposedly the top .001% of the imperium's most elite warriors, you can either have a game that acknowledges that marines are the most common infantry unit in the game and are going to be the measuring stick everyone compares everything to, or you have a game that makes marines feel as elite as they're supposed to be in the hallowed "lore".


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:43:46


Post by: Nurglitch


It used to be in 8th everyone had solid motivation to include a platoon of Imperial Guardsmen in their armies, and everyone apparently hated it.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 19:50:11


Post by: Manchild 1984


I thought Eldar are part of Harlequins


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 20:03:51


Post by: ccs


 Da Boss wrote:

Dire Avengers and Banshees both are plainly just a rip off testing the waters to see how high they can push the price.


Oh no, there's no test involved. GW already knows what price they can push it to:https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Varanguard-Knights-of-Ruin
That's $33/chaos knight. For chunky spikey evil mounted knights - something many many other companies supply much cheaper.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 20:13:55


Post by: yukishiro1


the_scotsman wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Eldar profiles were outdated even in 8th, now they're just a joke. And the Incubi profile they showed a while ago shows they're still committed to keeping eldar as T3 1W infantry, even though the rest of the game has passed that by completely. So I wouldn't expect that Aspect Warriors are going to move up from bargain basement garbage any time soon either.


"Space Marines" /= "The Rest Of The Game."

Guard Sisters Tau Eldar GSC Nids Necrons etc etc etc etc etc still use 1W infantry as a baseline. It's literally just the marines that have been elevated.

We're doing a "Marines feel overpowered" edition. Since marines are 99.99% of the play meta but also are supposedly the top .001% of the imperium's most elite warriors, you can either have a game that acknowledges that marines are the most common infantry unit in the game and are going to be the measuring stick everyone compares everything to, or you have a game that makes marines feel as elite as they're supposed to be in the hallowed "lore".


Right, but that's really the issue of the thread: Eldar have fallen precipitously by comparison. Eldar have gone to being equivalent or superior to marines to weaklings that marines dunk on for fun - even aspect warriors get taken to the cleaners by generic intercessors at this point. GW's approach has been to just devalue Eldar infantry to the point where they're cheap trash with a cheap trash points value, and that doesn't work with the faction image. It leads where we are now, to a dysfunctional faction with an identity that is a complete mismatch for their actual rules.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 20:23:48


Post by: Argive


Karol wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
^I think he meant Reivers more than Infiltrators, which makes mroe sense.

Specially considering how often both options gets used.

I disagree on that point. Termiantors are pretty good again.

But thats becasue they got 3W now and aces to invulns as well as heaps and heaps of rules in an game that got vastly more deadly...

The DA and DG termintors are good. The other not so much, and a lot of armies don't even have 3W termintors. 1ksons, csm and GK have them a 2W, but costing as if they had 3.


So you are agreeing that terminators are decent ?
Ok great thanks.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 20:26:15


Post by: Racerguy180


Dysartes wrote:
Spoiler:
Racerguy180 wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....


Dammit, now why'd ya have ta bring that up


Simple - if people want to complain about "Elves in Space" getting so little love (defined as three factions, plus three special characters in their own little bubble) - I'm going to point out that one of the other mainstay fantasy races in space has gotten a much worse end of the stick.

When you're doing worse than Halflings in Space and Ogres in Space, it feels a bit off when someone complains about "so little love" for pointy-ears in space.

And I'm not saying that Kraftwerld Eldar don't need some attention, but "so little love"? Please...
I'd hope no one has their faction deleted like mine was. I still get a little mad when anyone casually jokes about a faction being unloved by GW or squatted. At least you still have a faction....

On the space elf subject, I feel GW is transitioning craftworlds to be mostly spirit constructs. Less and less living eldar and more inhabiting spiritstones. Ynarri would seem to be key to this but seems like they've pivoted away from them(hopefully not as Ynarri lore is what got me to buy elves in the first place).


Yvraine is one of the best eldar sculpts they've ever done. I really like the Deldar stuff and absolutely love Harlis in plastic. Currently I'm waiting on more Ynarri stuff to buy any more pointy ears as it would determine which direction I want to go(playstyle). Unfortunately it doesn't look like I'm gonna expand it any more for the foreseeable future. Which is a shame.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 21:32:30


Post by: Bosskelot


Aspects being T3 W1 is fine, as long as they get other defensive and mobility buffs to offset this, while also having their offensive output skyrocketed and new abilities be added. Incubi are halfway there currently; that previewed offensive profile is exactly what it needs to be. It just depends on what tools GW gives space elves to allow their Elite nature to shine through despite being a T3 W1 army.

Like, Banshee's are bad because despite being the pre-eminent shock troops in the galaxy that are a cut above almost every other races elites, they do 0 damage to even tactical marines now. You cannot be an elite-killing elite unit with D1, unless you get other serious buffs or utility to counteract this (such as Shield Lychguard, who are tough as nails and with the right buffs can still blend stuff despite being D1). On a base level the unit needs D2 on its swords and probably some insane charge bonuses too, to represent its shock troop nature (like +1 A and re-rolling wounds on the charge). Then it could actually fulfil its role. Scorpions certainly need -1 ap on their chainswords, but really they could benefit from some kind of Obsec-disabling ability, maybe an aura-disable ability, or maybe just something to represent they have unique and special shuriken catapults which currently have no special rules in-game whatsoever. But it's totally fine for Infiltrators and Incursors to have their super special bolt guns both do different unique things though. :V


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 21:39:02


Post by: Insectum7


 Da Boss wrote:

Dire Avengers and Banshees both are plainly just a rip off testing the waters to see how high they can push the price.

It stings even more knowing that Dire Avengers used to come eight to a box instead of five, and for less $$.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 21:47:33


Post by: Hellebore


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

Dire Avengers and Banshees both are plainly just a rip off testing the waters to see how high they can push the price.

It stings even more knowing that Dire Avengers used to come eight to a box instead of five, and for less $$.


When they were metal upgrades for plastic guardians.

When these plastic ones were released they came out in a box of 10 - two of the sprue currently in the 5 man box.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 21:49:33


Post by: Flinty


 jaredb wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
Maybe another means to get at the "they know what you're going to do" schtick is to give them means for moving opponents models. I remember it being a powerful effect from a while back with a previous edition of Slaanesh force. I forget the name of the power/artefact that permitted it. Lash princes or something.



The Lash of Submission was a very abusive psychic power back in its time. There is something very unfun about abilities which let your opponent move your models.


That is fair enough, but for a glass cannon like.Eldar to.work, they cant take any real.damage. therefore they will be frustrating to play against regardless of the mechanic that drips them from.taking damage.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 21:54:35


Post by: LunarSol


Nurglitch wrote:
It used to be in 8th everyone had solid motivation to include a platoon of Imperial Guardsmen in their armies, and everyone apparently hated it.


I loved how this looked on the table personally.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 21:59:41


Post by: yukishiro1


I agree T3 1W is fine with other defensive abilities, but they haven't given those - in fact, they removed what little defense Eldar had from stacking -to hit in 9th edition because people didn't enjoy it. Apparently it's ok to have models that are hard to wound, or hard to kill because they have multiple wounds, but it's not ok to have models that are hard to hit, because <reasons>.

GW just doesn't seem to have any ideas left when it comes to Eldar. Hopefully we'll be proven wrong with the DE codex, but based on what we've seen so far, I'm not optimistic.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 22:14:56


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


Edit: duplicate post.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 22:46:30


Post by: Castozor


yukishiro1 wrote:
I agree T3 1W is fine with other defensive abilities, but they haven't given those - in fact, they removed what little defense Eldar had from stacking -to hit in 9th edition because people didn't enjoy it. Apparently it's ok to have models that are hard to wound, or hard to kill because they have multiple wounds, but it's not ok to have models that are hard to hit, because <reasons>.

GW just doesn't seem to have any ideas left when it comes to Eldar. Hopefully we'll be proven wrong with the DE codex, but based on what we've seen so far, I'm not optimistic.

Actually judging by the horrifying amount of people rejoicing when my DG lost their old Disgustingly Resilient, it seems lots of people take issue with hard to kill models regardless of why that is.
As for the topic at hand, I feel the 2 main issues with Eldar are both an old model range with plenty of stuff not in plastic and the fact that conceptually GW seems to have no idea what to do with them. In some of the multiple "let's hate on marines" threads people mentioned that SM have guzzled up design space from other factions, and I personally think no other faction has been hit as hard by this as Eldar. Their elites are supposed to be some of the best yet even their aspect warriors get dumpstered by regular marines/DG now. Their psychic superiority isn't really all that compared to what some other factions can do now and a lot of their "too speedy/crafty" for you has also been cannibalized by other factions (not just SM).


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:05:33


Post by: Adrassil


 Bosskelot wrote:
This is an issue with Ynnari and a lot of AOS factions in that, they're so focused on being part of an ongoing narrative, that GW doesn't bother to actually flesh them out and make them feel like a real civilization/organisation/country (choose whichever, depending on faction)

The most compelling and interesting part of Ynnari is: how do they even live their daily lives? What does Ynnari society look like? How do they live? Where do they live? What does a Ynnari civilian do?

We know the answers to these questions for Craftworld and Drukhari, we even know lots of these things for Corsairs and Exodites, neither of which really exist anymore in real terms. Even Harlequins have some of this stuff expanded and explained, despite being mostly kept as a mysterious force.

But GW have expanded on none of this for Ynnari. Instead they're a narrative-focused faction, revolving entirely around 3 named characters, a vague concept of "hope" and an impossible goal to achieve. Why should I give a gak about that? This is an issue that is going to catch up to AOS eventually too and kind of already limits the appeal of some of its factions. You need to give me actual reasons to care about the faction in order to be invested in it. Hell, even in battlefield terms its all still really vague and I'm still unclear as to how Spirit Stones, Drukhari life leeching and Cegorach's protection even work or apply with them. What is a Guardian Defender or Kabalite Warrior within the context of a Ynnari army? Instead we just get vague gak about "oooooh the powers of death swirl around them and give them power" yeah okay cool dude but how is a Ynnari army actually organised? That's what people are actually here for.


I really couldn't agree more even as an Eldar fan I have no interest in them at all.

I just began back in the game as Eldar again for the first time in a long time and, well, thank goodness I have so many model kits such as Dire Avengers as GW seem to not just slowed or stopped updating the Eldar units but also make sure to sell them at twice the price and half the models. A five man Dire Avengers squad costs MORE than a ten man squad did back when I was last collecting. And a five woman squad of the new Howling Banshees is 105.00 NZD which is just insane in my eyes.

I'd like some for my Kill Team, but refuse to buy them from GW at such a price on principle alone.

Also, I agree that the old Swooping Hawks look like arse.

I'm also glad I had my old metal Striking Scorpions as I'd rather them than the frigging Fine Cast ones. That's another huge problem is that far too much of the range are Fine Cast, I'd just be happy if GW updated them to plastic. Would that be hard to do? That's not rhetorical I genuinely don't know.

Not just that but GW don't bother to produce the old Autarch models, such as the one with the Howling Banshee mask.

I do love some of the new models the Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings, mandiblasters, fusion pistol and power sword is magnificent in my eyes I've been painting one over the past few weeks and he is a joy to paint and the new Farseer and Eldrad Ulthran are great as well, but there are too few compared to the other factions have got in 40k.

I'd like a few more options that might make them a bit more nuanced something such as a 'veteran' upgrade option for squads, because why do the comparitively shorter lived humans get to become veterans where an Eldar guardian or Aspect Warrior who ha s tred two maybe three paths of the warrior not? Hell, what about a guardian who spent three centuries on the Path of Command before becoming an artist, who fights only a short time after transferring? He doesn't have to become an Autarch again.

Sorry for the whining lol








Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:24:26


Post by: Dysartes


yukishiro1 wrote:
I agree T3 1W is fine with other defensive abilities, but they haven't given those - in fact, they removed what little defense Eldar had from stacking -to hit in 9th edition because people didn't enjoy it. Apparently it's ok to have models that are hard to wound, or hard to kill because they have multiple wounds, but it's not ok to have models that are hard to hit, because <reasons>.

GW just doesn't seem to have any ideas left when it comes to Eldar. Hopefully we'll be proven wrong with the DE codex, but based on what we've seen so far, I'm not optimistic.


In the case of the multi-wound models, at least it feels like you've done something if a unit's shooting strips a couple of wounds off something - as opposed to missing entirely (due to stacked penalties) or bouncing off their saves (however many layers of them there are).

If I fire the lasguns off one Infantry Squad at Wraithguard or Aggressors - or even Intercessors - and get a couple of wounds through from the attack sequence? It's progress, even if not by much, and the Squad might finish the wounded model off.

N.B - Please don't now go unto the nth degree of Mathhammer disproving my examples, in a game where dice happen.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:29:40


Post by: Insectum7


 Hellebore wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

Dire Avengers and Banshees both are plainly just a rip off testing the waters to see how high they can push the price.

It stings even more knowing that Dire Avengers used to come eight to a box instead of five, and for less $$.


When they were metal upgrades for plastic guardians.

When these plastic ones were released they came out in a box of 10 - two of the sprue currently in the 5 man box.
Oh man, is that how that went down? Even worse :(



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:32:25


Post by: Flinty


I agree with Dysartes. I think that's why vehicles have gone the way they have. Gives bith the players a feeling of agency when stuff is happening. The owner is less likely to have to deal with losing a big nice expensive and lovingly painted model to a single weapon hit, while the opposition gets the sense of achievement for reducing those wounds by some measure.

That's a different feeling for the players to constantly pounding hits off something for no discernable effect.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:34:20


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Dysartes wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I agree T3 1W is fine with other defensive abilities, but they haven't given those - in fact, they removed what little defense Eldar had from stacking -to hit in 9th edition because people didn't enjoy it. Apparently it's ok to have models that are hard to wound, or hard to kill because they have multiple wounds, but it's not ok to have models that are hard to hit, because <reasons>.

GW just doesn't seem to have any ideas left when it comes to Eldar. Hopefully we'll be proven wrong with the DE codex, but based on what we've seen so far, I'm not optimistic.


In the case of the multi-wound models, at least it feels like you've done something if a unit's shooting strips a couple of wounds off something - as opposed to missing entirely (due to stacked penalties) or bouncing off their saves (however many layers of them there are).

If I fire the lasguns off one Infantry Squad at Wraithguard or Aggressors - or even Intercessors - and get a couple of wounds through from the attack sequence? It's progress, even if not by much, and the Squad might finish the wounded model off.

N.B - Please don't now go unto the nth degree of Mathhammer disproving my examples, in a game where dice happen.


so the reason why elfs got gutted is because people love the dopamine hit of seeing the number go down even if its an illusion of meaningful progress.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:36:00


Post by: Flinty


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I agree T3 1W is fine with other defensive abilities, but they haven't given those - in fact, they removed what little defense Eldar had from stacking -to hit in 9th edition because people didn't enjoy it. Apparently it's ok to have models that are hard to wound, or hard to kill because they have multiple wounds, but it's not ok to have models that are hard to hit, because <reasons>.

GW just doesn't seem to have any ideas left when it comes to Eldar. Hopefully we'll be proven wrong with the DE codex, but based on what we've seen so far, I'm not optimistic.


In the case of the multi-wound models, at least it feels like you've done something if a unit's shooting strips a couple of wounds off something - as opposed to missing entirely (due to stacked penalties) or bouncing off their saves (however many layers of them there are).

If I fire the lasguns off one Infantry Squad at Wraithguard or Aggressors - or even Intercessors - and get a couple of wounds through from the attack sequence? It's progress, even if not by much, and the Squad might finish the wounded model off.

N.B - Please don't now go unto the nth degree of Mathhammer disproving my examples, in a game where dice happen.


so the reason why elfs got gutted is because people love the dopamine hit of seeing the number go down even if its an illusion of meaningful progress.


But they haven't been gutted. They just haven't been kept up to date in the same way that the other factions have. And that may be partly to do with that sense of player experience. Certainly won't be the only reason, but it may be contributory.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:40:52


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Flinty wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I agree T3 1W is fine with other defensive abilities, but they haven't given those - in fact, they removed what little defense Eldar had from stacking -to hit in 9th edition because people didn't enjoy it. Apparently it's ok to have models that are hard to wound, or hard to kill because they have multiple wounds, but it's not ok to have models that are hard to hit, because <reasons>.

GW just doesn't seem to have any ideas left when it comes to Eldar. Hopefully we'll be proven wrong with the DE codex, but based on what we've seen so far, I'm not optimistic.


In the case of the multi-wound models, at least it feels like you've done something if a unit's shooting strips a couple of wounds off something - as opposed to missing entirely (due to stacked penalties) or bouncing off their saves (however many layers of them there are).

If I fire the lasguns off one Infantry Squad at Wraithguard or Aggressors - or even Intercessors - and get a couple of wounds through from the attack sequence? It's progress, even if not by much, and the Squad might finish the wounded model off.

N.B - Please don't now go unto the nth degree of Mathhammer disproving my examples, in a game where dice happen.


so the reason why elfs got gutted is because people love the dopamine hit of seeing the number go down even if its an illusion of meaningful progress.


But they haven't been gutted. They just haven't been kept up to date in the same way that the other factions have. And that may be partly to do with that sense of player experience. Certainly won't be the only reason, but it may be contributory.


ok. maybe not gutted but at the very least they lost any semblance of resilience.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/09 23:41:50


Post by: yukishiro1


Well no, it's both nerfs and being left behind, at the same time. Eldar defenses used to be largely based around being very hard to hit by stacking minuses. Then 9th came along and that got nerfed.

At the same time, Eldar have been left behind during the massive stat inflation we've seen over 8th and now 9th edition.

So while marines are now tougher than they ever have been, Eldar are even more fragile than they used to be, because their one defense got neutered.



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 00:21:03


Post by: Wyldhunt


yukishiro1 wrote:
Well no, it's both nerfs and being left behind, at the same time. Eldar defenses used to be largely based around being very hard to hit by stacking minuses. Then 9th came along and that got nerfed.

At the same time, Eldar have been left behind during the massive stat inflation we've seen over 8th and now 9th edition.

So while marines are now tougher than they ever have been, Eldar are even more fragile than they used to be, because their one defense got neutered.



Pretty much this. The -1/+1 rule was probably put in place with craftworlders in mind. No other faction could really stack to-hit penalties the way we could. And honestly, that's a good change for the game; it's just not a good change for our faction specifically. As others have pointed out, missing entirely is much more frustrating than chewing through extra wounds because the latter gives you a since of progress/accomplishment.

But yeah, craftworlders definitely feel like they're missing something. At various points in time, we've had transports that were only hit on 6+ if they moved far enough, the ability to swing in melee before most enemies, relatively high WS stats that functionally lowered most units' chances of hitting us in melee, the ability to move-shoot-move almost army-wide, and stackable to-hit mods. As of 9th edition, we've basically lost all of those mechanics, and we haven't gotten much to replace it. And the lethality of the game is high enough that the -1 to hit penalties we do have here and there don't feel sufficient.

I feel like most of the "elevator pitches" for eldar mechanics from when I started playing in 5th still apply. We're not the most psychic faction any more, and most of our best psychic powers basically just do what marine auras do without a psychic test. We're not really that much faster than most factions, and the smaller board size combined with our meh melee makes what speed we do have less useful. We can't really even claim the "army of specialists" niche any more as many armies have started gravitating in that direction and several imperial units are basically aspect warriors but better. (Pteraxii are better swooping hawks, eradicators are better dragons, etc.)

If I were in charge of the next eldar codex, I think I'd try to give them mechanics that make them more durable via their speed and coordination. While some aspects could probably stand to be a bit more lethal, I don't really want to promote an arms race that leads back to 7th edition levels of silliness. Instead, emphasize that the craftworlders don't have extra lives to waste. Make their style of war all about mitigating casualties despite not being wrapped in power armor. A given aspect warrior should either be efficiently lethal against its preferred target (but not significantly moreso than marines) or else should have special abilities that let them shut down the enemy's offense. So fire dragons should be good at killing tanks. Warp Spiders should be able to run away after shooting. Banshees should be moderately good at stabbing things but should also be able to hold enemy units hostage and/or reduce their melee offense.

And the whole army should maybe get a ward save (like FNP, but one roll for all the damage instead of 1 roll per damage) if they advanced or charged in their previous turn.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 00:29:36


Post by: Hecaton


 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.

I think the problem is that no one at GW has been able to follow on the original designs Jes Goodwin set down for the race.

Perhaps it is time to fracture the craftworlds monolith appearance (& traits) so they inject some new units and aesthetics into the line.


I think GW is consciously avoiding focusing on them to head off any loss of attention on Space Marines.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 00:45:17


Post by: dan2026


Even if Eldar get the best rules ever in the new codex it still won’t matter if they don’t get new updated models to go with them.
How are you going to convince anyone to start an army with 20 year old models that aren’t even readily available in plastic?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 00:57:04


Post by: Argive


 dan2026 wrote:
Even if Eldar get the best rules ever in the new codex it still won’t matter if they don’t get new updated models to go with them.
How are you going to convince anyone to start an army with 20 year old models that aren’t even readily available in plastic?


Indeed..


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 01:19:35


Post by: Asherian Command


Iracundus wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, I just don't want Ynnari if it means "let's make a super faction and merge CWE/Dark eldar designs together !". I'm also completely fine with them being a bunch of specific characters with followers from various other Aeldari cultures. Since that's actually what they are.


Your two sentences just seemed to contradict each other, first by saying you don't mind a super faction merging them together, but then saying you don't mind them being characters with followers from different cultures.

I don't think Ynnari should be Eldar soup. They need to develop their own identity as a faction rather than just consist of units scavenged from Craftoworld, Dark Eldar, or Harlequin lists.

The problem is right now we don't have information on what the Ynnari are up to now, or how they function as a society/cult. The movement is described as spreading yet all we ever see the focus on is Yvraine and her immediate circle of followers.


Ynnari need to have more done and be their own faction and flavor, as it is now, Harlequinns are just specialists... They barely have enough to really be considered a different army. I never liked Harlequinns being anything more than specialists that Eldar Craftworlds could take.

Ynnari specifically felt like a great idea, with its own faction and rules, and codex, and units, because it makes sense. IT does not make sense they would utilize khaine oriented units because Khaine / Aspect Warriors are Priests of Khaine. They would hate Ynnead in all forms. And they even hint at that throughout all of the lore. It doesn't make sense that the ynnari wouldn't develop their own style and units to fit.

Eldar will continue to languish under little to no attention.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 01:48:03


Post by: Hellebore


Gw have progressively moved the game away from mechanically representing the things eldar are good at.

The game has now shifted to a mechanic focus on the simplest aspect of damage - resilience.

This is why IMO the necrons got such a massive boost - they're the one xenos army that effectively matches marines in resilience, which is the only way the game now plays.



There is now very few options available mechanically to allow the strengths of the eldar to be represented.

Invulnerable saves - but you'd have to give the whole army a basic one to represent reflexes.
Saves against hits rather than against wounds
Transhuman to hit (ie no one can hit better than a 4+ against eldar).

There's not much else you can do to reflect their strengths.

With the DE, they're piling on the attacks so they can make up for the inevitable casualties.

But even then, they still had power from pain that protected them, making them in some ways more resilient than the CWE.



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 02:38:44


Post by: Adrassil


 Hellebore wrote:
Transhuman to hit (ie no one can hit better than a 4+ against eldar).


Oooh, I like that idea a lot. I was thinking just making all the Eldar saves invulnerable (which you said) but that could be a lot better!


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 02:57:07


Post by: Argive


 Adrassil wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
Transhuman to hit (ie no one can hit better than a 4+ against eldar).


Oooh, I like that idea a lot. I was thinking just making all the Eldar saves invulnerable (which you said) but that could be a lot better!


Im not sure I like it.
It just means eldar are easier to hit by dudes runing around carrying heavy weapons.. It is very good against elite shooting units(custodes) but against BS3 it makes little difference as its the same as if you were shot through cover. The fact that self imposed penalties don't stack with covers is already dumb. This would be the same. Only really effective against custodes. Bit like the slanesh thing we have in ur codex rules now.

I think simply increasing the cap to hit to -2 but retaining the 6 always hit solves the issue.
You can only get -2 realistically on on one or two units anyway. Alitoic aircraft is no longer an issue.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 03:00:42


Post by: Insectum7


 Hellebore wrote:
Gw have progressively moved the game away from mechanically representing the things eldar are good at.

I'd argue that part of the issue is they've, they moved away from some things Marines were good at, like Morale and the Marines traditional discipline and replacing it with physical stat boosts. "Elite" now just means 'Tougher' and MOAR 'attacks' etc.

Transhuman to hit (ie no one can hit better than a 4+ against eldar).
That's a cool idea but you'd have to figure a way to make other hit modifiers still relevant, imo. We're already in the funny state where effects aren't cumulative, so there's already some funny situations where there's no downside for firing a Heavy weapon on the move.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 05:50:37


Post by: yukishiro1


The more interesting way to handle eldar survivability would be something close to what IDK get in AOS, where they can only be targeted with ranged attacks if they are the closest visible target. That's maybe too powerful a rule for 40k, but you could play with that sort of concept - maybe -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and +1 to saves (including invulns) if you shoot anything but the closest target, or something like that. Hand-waive it as some sort of psychic suppression that makes it difficult for the opponent to concentrate on anything but the closest threat. That then opens up all sorts of design space for tactical gameplay that boosts the resilience of the army by forcing the opponent to shoot at resilient stuff like wraith units because they've been deliberately placed in such a way that they draw the fire. This does a decent job of representing the way Eldar ought to play - not hordes of expendable chaff, but every life being treasured and protected by the collective.

It could be even something like the old requirement to pass a leadership test to shoot at something that isn't the closest target.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 06:01:48


Post by: Asherian Command


yukishiro1 wrote:
The more interesting way to handle eldar survivability would be something close to what IDK get in AOS, where they can only be targeted with ranged attacks if they are the closest visible target. That's maybe too powerful a rule for 40k, but you could play with that sort of concept - maybe -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and +1 to saves (including invulns) if you shoot anything but the closest target, or something like that. Hand-waive it as some sort of psychic suppression that makes it difficult for the opponent to concentrate on anything but the closest threat. That then opens up all sorts of design space for tactical gameplay that boosts the resilience of the army by forcing the opponent to shoot at resilient stuff like wraith units because they've been deliberately placed in such a way that they draw the fire. This does a decent job of representing the way Eldar ought to play - not hordes of expendable chaff, but every life being treasured and protected by the collective.

It could be even something like the old requirement to pass a leadership test to shoot at something that isn't the closest target.


Space marines have a way to negate the closest rule. It would work surprisingly well. Some factions would have harder times, but honestly eldar are already at the worst part of the spectrum and only are where they are currently because of the ineptitude of the rules.

As it is leadership is not as useful as it once was for space marines.

I have always been that the Eldar should have the best psychic powers, and every single Aspect Warrior Leader should have access to Some type of psychic powers. AS it would make a ton more sense. (like the lumineth)

But again probably not.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 06:58:51


Post by: Wyldhunt


 Asherian Command wrote:

I have always been that the Eldar should have the best psychic powers, and every single Aspect Warrior Leader should have access to Some type of psychic powers. AS it would make a ton more sense. (like the lumineth)

But again probably not.


Actually, that's what exarch powers are described as being: relatively subtle psychic powers. Less shooting lightning bolts from their hands, more superhuman wuxia attacks and such. That's the justification briefly given for why the expanded exarch power options appeared in the Psychic Awakening book, but it also kind of works retroactively. If you read some of the BL novels featuring phoenix lords, they describe Karandras as changing position and moving like a jerky Japanese ghost because onlookers simply don't process his movements until after he's made them. The Stalker exarch powers that striking scorpions have access to is probably meant to be a toned down version of the same concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Adrassil wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
Transhuman to hit (ie no one can hit better than a 4+ against eldar).


Oooh, I like that idea a lot. I was thinking just making all the Eldar saves invulnerable (which you said) but that could be a lot better!

We've discussed this a bit over in the Proposed Rules section. Personally, I don't like this solution as it weirdly doesn't impact BS4+ and worse units. You'd think that superhuman elf speed would be more effective against bog standard humans than against astartes and other aeldari, but this rule would actually accomplish the opposite; elite armies would have their shooting reduced to that of guardsmen while guardsmen would continue shooting just as well as ever.

Tying the defense to which unit is closest could be interesting, but as others have pointed out, any to-hit penalty ends up being kind of redundant if you have more than one of them.

If we can't just change the -1/+1 limit to -2/+2, then my preferred suggestion at the moment is probably to just give them a 5+ ward save provided they advanced or charged in their previous movement/charge phase. Probably ditching the current version of Battle Focus so that they functionally have to sacrifice some shooting offense to get more defense or else have to risk getting into melee.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 07:37:13


Post by: Adrassil


Wyldhunt wrote:
 Adrassil wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
Transhuman to hit (ie no one can hit better than a 4+ against eldar).


Oooh, I like that idea a lot. I was thinking just making all the Eldar saves invulnerable (which you said) but that could be a lot better!

We've discussed this a bit over in the Proposed Rules section. Personally, I don't like this solution as it weirdly doesn't impact BS4+ and worse units. You'd think that superhuman elf speed would be more effective against bog standard humans than against astartes and other aeldari, but this rule would actually accomplish the opposite; elite armies would have their shooting reduced to that of guardsmen while guardsmen would continue shooting just as well as ever.

Tying the defense to which unit is closest could be interesting, but as others have pointed out, any to-hit penalty ends up being kind of redundant if you have more than one of them.

If we can't just change the -1/+1 limit to -2/+2, then my preferred suggestion at the moment is probably to just give them a 5+ ward save provided they advanced or charged in their previous movement/charge phase. Probably ditching the current version of Battle Focus so that they functionally have to sacrifice some shooting offense to get more defense or else have to risk getting into melee.


Yeah, that makes sense. I'm just thinking of that movement minus and maybe to show their agility in close combat they get to re-roll armour/invulnerable saves or re-roll 1's on their armour save/invulerable save? Could be OP but it's simple I guess.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 07:58:58


Post by: Wyldhunt


 Adrassil wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 Adrassil wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
Transhuman to hit (ie no one can hit better than a 4+ against eldar).


Oooh, I like that idea a lot. I was thinking just making all the Eldar saves invulnerable (which you said) but that could be a lot better!

We've discussed this a bit over in the Proposed Rules section. Personally, I don't like this solution as it weirdly doesn't impact BS4+ and worse units. You'd think that superhuman elf speed would be more effective against bog standard humans than against astartes and other aeldari, but this rule would actually accomplish the opposite; elite armies would have their shooting reduced to that of guardsmen while guardsmen would continue shooting just as well as ever.

Tying the defense to which unit is closest could be interesting, but as others have pointed out, any to-hit penalty ends up being kind of redundant if you have more than one of them.

If we can't just change the -1/+1 limit to -2/+2, then my preferred suggestion at the moment is probably to just give them a 5+ ward save provided they advanced or charged in their previous movement/charge phase. Probably ditching the current version of Battle Focus so that they functionally have to sacrifice some shooting offense to get more defense or else have to risk getting into melee.


Yeah, that makes sense. I'm just thinking of that movement minus and maybe to show their agility in close combat they get to re-roll armour/invulnerable saves or re-roll 1's on their armour save/invulerable save? Could be OP but it's simple I guess.

Rerolling armor saves gets weird because it wouldn't help at all against weapons with sufficient AP. A power sword would cut straight through the 4+ armor of a swooping hawk, for instance, and they don't generally have an invul to benefit from that rule. And as the rule is meant to represent their dodging ability, it's weird that such an ability would be bypassed by a weapon's AP. You'd think dodging ability would be more effective against a power fist/klaw, for instance, not less.

That's why I like the ward save approach. It's just a straight up, "Ignore 1/3rd of the harm you would normally suffer because you're fast enough to avoid/mitigate harm." Plus, it works against both melee and shooting attacks, and you don't have weird interactions with the modern to-hit modifier rules.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 08:18:04


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I just want the Eldar to get a plastic Avatar worthy of the current Greater Daemons/Daemon Primarchs/upcoming Be'lakor mini.

That can't be too much to ask, can it?



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 08:41:26


Post by: Iracundus


Phoenix Rising had a Banshee Exarch power called Graceful Avoidance which gave the unit a 5+++. Of course from a story and logic point of view, it meant that it was harder to fully avoid a higher Damage weapon even though there might not be any actual in-universe reason why. Why they didn't just give a 5++ I don't know.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 08:42:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On -X to hit?

I understand the core rules now cap that. But sure they can break that for their Codex?

After all, Codexes are the home of Core Rule Caveats.

Example? Resurrection Protocols. Core rules explain that once your last wound is gone, the model is removed as a casualty. And so it is, except for Necrons. The Morale rules are core rules, until a Codex provides an exception for an army.

Even capping it out at -2/+2 would help, no?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 08:56:02


Post by: harlokin


I agree. They could even have had more than one category of penalty, and simply stopped stacking within a category. So a Venom's defensive -1 to hit would be different to the -1 to hit incurred by an infantryman moving and firing a heavy weapon.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 09:12:44


Post by: Hellebore


Will if you want to go that way you can do this:

War mask
The Eldar possess a liquid grace and preternatural speed unlike any other race, flowing across the battlefield like ghosts.
Any unit attacking an Eldar unit treats it's WS and BS as 1 as lower than it is. This has no effect on hit modifiers.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 09:15:12


Post by: Insectum7


 Hellebore wrote:
Will if you want to go that way you can do this:

War mask
The Eldar possess a liquid grace and preternatural speed unlike any other race, flowing across the battlefield like ghosts.
Any unit attacking an Eldar unit treats it's WS and BS as 1 as lower than it is. This has no effect on hit modifiers.
I'd try that out.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 09:44:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Certainly one option

Certainly it would help replicate the grace they’re known for in-universe.

I also wonder if they could poach a rule from the Lumineth? This requires a quick primer for AoS.

AoS combat - player who’s turn it is picks a unit to fight with, then players alternate. Unlike 40K, charging doesn’t change that.

Lumineth however can choose two units to fight. This of course allows for pretty efficient ganking in a system where ganging up carries a bit of a risk.

As a straight port it looses some of its oomph of course, because 40K allows chargers to fight first. But I dare say more knowledgeable folk could hammer it into shape.

Or to go really wild? When an enemy unit declares a charge, any Craftworld unit can fall back D3” as a reaction. Bloody useful, and forces your opponent to forgo the riskier charges, at the expense of you potentially giving up control of objectives.

It’s speedy, and it’s frustrating, but it’s not foolproof. Seems rather Craftworldy to my mind?

Edited - four sentences ending in a question mark in a row. Eurgh! There. That’s better.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 10:54:14


Post by: InVerno


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Certainly one option

Certainly it would help replicate the grace they’re known for in-universe.

I also wonder if they could poach a rule from the Lumineth? This requires a quick primer for AoS.

AoS combat - player who’s turn it is picks a unit to fight with, then players alternate. Unlike 40K, charging doesn’t change that.

Lumineth however can choose two units to fight. This of course allows for pretty efficient ganking in a system where ganging up carries a bit of a risk.

As a straight port it looses some of its oomph of course, because 40K allows chargers to fight first. But I dare say more knowledgeable folk could hammer it into shape.

Or to go really wild? When an enemy unit declares a charge, any Craftworld unit can fall back D3” as a reaction. Bloody useful, and forces your opponent to forgo the riskier charges, at the expense of you potentially giving up control of objectives.

It’s speedy, and it’s frustrating, but it’s not foolproof. Seems rather Craftworldy to my mind?

Edited - four sentences ending in a question mark in a row. Eurgh! There. That’s better.



That wont protect us from the unholy fire that the likes of eradicators can rise


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:00:07


Post by: Karol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Or to go really wild? When an enemy unit declares a charge, any Craftworld unit can fall back D3” as a reaction. Bloody useful, and forces your opponent to forgo the riskier charges, at the expense of you potentially giving up control of objectives.

It’s speedy, and it’s frustrating, but it’s not foolproof. Seems rather Craftworldy to my mind?
.


It would make charges out of deep strike practicaly impossible, which would mean that melee armies that don't have fast moving units would lose the only option to actualy get in to melee with eldar


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:04:35


Post by: A.T.


 Hellebore wrote:
There's not much else you can do to reflect their strengths.
Give them a second move, redeployment, or some other strength the ability to switch out their own objective

Things like 'never better than 4+ to hit', vetos on scoring, blanket penalties on swathes of enemy movement and so on have similarities with the stacking hit modifiers and other bad game design like invisibility - they don't give the eldar new toys, they just take other players toys away.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:04:43


Post by: Karol


 Hellebore wrote:
Will if you want to go that way you can do this:

War mask
The Eldar possess a liquid grace and preternatural speed unlike any other race, flowing across the battlefield like ghosts.
Any unit attacking an Eldar unit treats it's WS and BS as 1 as lower than it is. This has no effect on hit modifiers.

So elite armies would be hiting them on +5 in melee and shoting. This means that any eldar units with an inv save would become practically indestructible, specially if the -d3" to charge range became a thing too.


That's why I like the ward save approach. It's just a straight up, "Ignore 1/3rd of the harm you would normally suffer because you're fast enough to avoid/mitigate harm." Plus, it works against both melee and shooting attacks, and you don't have weird interactions with the modern to-hit modifier rules.

But it has a ton of interactions with one shot weapons or armies that are build around less numerous number of stronger attacks. Any army that wouldn't be able to spam melta weapons, and uses 1-2 shot heavy weapons for anti tank would not be able to destroy an eldar vehicles with a cumulative -2 to hit and a ++5 sv in melee and shoting.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:06:48


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Karol wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Or to go really wild? When an enemy unit declares a charge, any Craftworld unit can fall back D3” as a reaction. Bloody useful, and forces your opponent to forgo the riskier charges, at the expense of you potentially giving up control of objectives.

It’s speedy, and it’s frustrating, but it’s not foolproof. Seems rather Craftworldy to my mind?
.


It would make charges out of deep strike practicaly impossible, which would mean that melee armies that don't have fast moving units would lose the only option to actualy get in to melee with eldar


Easy way to solve that would be to enable it only from a charge from 6'' or closer. Or make it only happen on a 4+. Or simply make it a strat.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:13:34


Post by: InVerno


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Or to go really wild? When an enemy unit declares a charge, any Craftworld unit can fall back D3” as a reaction. Bloody useful, and forces your opponent to forgo the riskier charges, at the expense of you potentially giving up control of objectives.

It’s speedy, and it’s frustrating, but it’s not foolproof. Seems rather Craftworldy to my mind?
.


It would make charges out of deep strike practicaly impossible, which would mean that melee armies that don't have fast moving units would lose the only option to actualy get in to melee with eldar


Easy way to solve that would be to enable it only from a charge from 6'' or closer. Or make it only happen on a 4+. Or simply make it a strat.



Then it will be useless cosidering you get a 9" charge at best

Problem is, eldar should hit so hard you could not hit back, that is the definition of glass cannon, and with a good banshee charge you can kill 3 marine at best, and when they hit back they will oblitered the squad

Long story short, its fine eldar die fast, but they should hit like an absolute truck


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:41:57


Post by: Karol


Sgt. Cortez 796763 11075018 wrote:

Easy way to solve that would be to enable it only from a charge from 6'' or closer. Or make it only happen on a 4+. Or simply make it a strat.


That could work. I just worry that it being a strate would make it as useful as smoke on vehicles. Good when you have one huge vehicle, but not so much for the entire army. Could force eldar in to running some gigantic unit of doom that stacks -X to hit, the not FnP and charge debuffers with invs etc.


Problem is, eldar should hit so hard you could not hit back, that is the definition of glass cannon, and with a good banshee charge you can kill 3 marine at best, and when they hit back they will oblitered the squad

Which means that if eldar had the anti being shot option and the anti charge option build in, and would be killing multiple meq per charge per model. Against any elite marine army, they would be doing a one turn charge and it would be GG. That is not very fun or intereactive to play against, and would feel a lot like playing vs harlequins right now.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:47:22


Post by: Overread


Karol wrote:
Sgt. Cortez 796763 11075018 wrote:

Easy way to solve that would be to enable it only from a charge from 6'' or closer. Or make it only happen on a 4+. Or simply make it a strat.


That could work. I just worry that it being a strate would make it as useful as smoke on vehicles. Good when you have one huge vehicle, but not so much for the entire army. Could force eldar in to running some gigantic unit of doom that stacks -X to hit, the not FnP and charge debuffers with invs etc.


Problem is, eldar should hit so hard you could not hit back, that is the definition of glass cannon, and with a good banshee charge you can kill 3 marine at best, and when they hit back they will oblitered the squad

Which means that if eldar had the anti being shot option and the anti charge option build in, and would be killing multiple meq per charge per model. Against any elite marine army, they would be doing a one turn charge and it would be GG. That is not very fun or intereactive to play against, and would feel a lot like playing vs harlequins right now.


The point is you're supposed to learn that the Banshee are a deadly Glass Cannon. So you avoid them or shoot them before they reach close combat. If they reach close combat they slaughter your forces, if you gun them down before they get there then they don't. The Eldar players tactic is thus to hide them (eg in a transport or behind terrain) or otherwise give you too many targets or distract you so that you don't shoot them.
In reality you might shoot some of them. It's a huge folly with people who do math/dice theory in that they often consider a full unit's worth of attacks (esp for close combat) whilst in reality you will often lose many of those models before they reach combat range.

Of course with GW favouring making close combat more viable against more shooty armies by making first turn close combat possible in some instances that can mess with that angle of theory.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:52:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 InVerno wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Certainly one option

Certainly it would help replicate the grace they’re known for in-universe.

I also wonder if they could poach a rule from the Lumineth? This requires a quick primer for AoS.

AoS combat - player who’s turn it is picks a unit to fight with, then players alternate. Unlike 40K, charging doesn’t change that.

Lumineth however can choose two units to fight. This of course allows for pretty efficient ganking in a system where ganging up carries a bit of a risk.

As a straight port it looses some of its oomph of course, because 40K allows chargers to fight first. But I dare say more knowledgeable folk could hammer it into shape.

Or to go really wild? When an enemy unit declares a charge, any Craftworld unit can fall back D3” as a reaction. Bloody useful, and forces your opponent to forgo the riskier charges, at the expense of you potentially giving up control of objectives.

It’s speedy, and it’s frustrating, but it’s not foolproof. Seems rather Craftworldy to my mind?

Edited - four sentences ending in a question mark in a row. Eurgh! There. That’s better.



That wont protect us from the unholy fire that the likes of eradicators can rise


Can’t have a counter to everything my friend.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:53:22


Post by: Flinty


You can take off and nuke the site from orbit


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 11:55:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Not if your shuttle crew all get deded and eaten to deth!


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 12:04:10


Post by: Slipspace


 Flinty wrote:
You can take off and nuke the site from orbit


It's the only way to be sure.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 12:58:09


Post by: A.T.


 InVerno wrote:
Problem is, eldar should hit so hard you could not hit back, that is the definition of glass cannon, and with a good banshee charge you can kill 3 marine at best, and when they hit back they will oblitered the squad
But all of the suggestions so far have been about making the eldar hard to hit, harder to wound, harder to charge, better saves.

To be a glass cannon you need the glass as well as the cannon. But that has never exactly been the eldars style.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 13:01:19


Post by: Overread


Lets face it if you ask fans of a faction to design their own faction stats they nearly always end up hitting hard and being very hard to kill. Fewer people are aware enough of the need to build in weakness and in a large group the area weakness should be varies a lot based on opinion.

Especially once you try to emulate the lore because that nearly always fails. Esp since in the lore you'd have more guardians on the battlefield compared to marines yet in tabletop they might have quite comparable numbers.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 13:01:37


Post by: yukishiro1


That's because glass cannons don't work in 9th; the requirement to hold an objective through your opponent's turn means that every army needs to have significant resilience.

Glass cannons are also problematic for other reasons (e.x. they exacerbate alpha-strike advantages), but really a glass cannon faction just doesn't work in 9th. The objective design just doesn't allow it. The way 9th is set up requires all armies to have a certain level of homogeneity; some can be tougher than others, certainly, but every army has to have units capable of sitting on objectives and surviving, even if they aren't quite as good at is as some other armies. There are different ways to be resilient - hordes can be resilient through numbers, for example - but I don't think anyone thinks it fits the way Eldar should play to swarm objectives with tons of expendable bodies, it's so totally counter to the idea of what the faction is supposed to be. So that leaves some other kind of resilience.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 13:05:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Indeed. True glass hammer is more Dark Eldar.

Craftworld Eldar are trickier to pigeon hole for me. Yes, they suffer horribly if it becomes a game of pure attrition. But, their background is about them stacking the odds in their favour, so that there’s little to resist them after their strike.

That doesn’t mean Banshees should be able to carve through a squad of Marines in a single turn for instance. More so that the various parts of the army can mass gank a certain army - or hit and fade.

Consider Eldar in BFG. Their ships weren’t terribly heavily armed, but their Pulsars were reliable. The key to success was the death of thousand cuts whilst you outflew your opponent.

In 2nd Ed Epic, any unit within range of a Warlock could choose their orders after the enemy had revealed their intent, an ability unique to them, which thanks to the wider game mechanics gave them an edge. Same with pop-up attacks for Grav Tanks. Park behind a building, go on First Fire, and enjoy raining down destruction with little fear of reprisals (until Titan Legion and Snap Fire becoming a thing)

At the moment, 40K just doesn’t seem to reflect those ways of war. Beyond their psychic shenanigans, Craftworlds are just painfully....standard.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 13:06:31


Post by: dhallnet


A.T. wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
There's not much else you can do to reflect their strengths.
Give them a second move, redeployment, or some other strength the ability to switch out their own objective

Things like 'never better than 4+ to hit', vetos on scoring, blanket penalties on swathes of enemy movement and so on have similarities with the stacking hit modifiers and other bad game design like invisibility - they don't give the eldar new toys, they just take other players toys away.

Same as stuff forcing you to fight last, removing auras, hit modifiers, invuls, reducing/ignoring invuls, reanimation protocols, whatever. You're just making distinctions based on opinions/taste. Or those are bad too but you forgot about them while they are becoming increasingly common.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 13:23:13


Post by: Mmmpi


 Flinty wrote:


This is an interesting point though. The background on Eldar is that the farseers largely know what will happen ahead of time and therefore the very limited Eldar forces can be chosen specifically for the mission. Eldar should never have to build a take all comers force, because they should know ahead of time what they will be facing and can cannon up accordingly. This is a logistics and strategic maneuverability issue out with the ability of 40k to address.

To be true to the ethos of eldar, the players really need a stratagem that allows them to basically tailor their force after they know what their opponent has taken. I dont see this as being likely to ever be implemented as it would require all.Eldar players to basically have multiple sets of each possible unit to counter all of the things they might come up against. It also runs the risk of the pre-game time being radically extended while the eldar player peruses the list and fiddles.

On the wider point of the thread, I wonder if eldar suffer from having a very early extensive set of models that, in my opinion, absolutely smashed aesthetics and design space out of the park. GW tried to refresh them as has been mentioned but utterly failed in translating the aesthetic and then reverted back to something very close to the original. It's possible GW just doesnt want to open themselves up to mucking about with what are already nice models. So they test the waters occasionally, leaving everyone unsatisfied.


I don't know if anyone already said this.

Probably the easiest way would be to make it like Daemon summoning. Set aside points at the start of the game to have units of aspect warriors standing by to strike in from the webway. Maybe make it a feature of the Farseer to call them?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 13:26:10


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Am I right in thinking we’ve seen the odd power or stratagem which can switch off buff bubbles?

If so, and I didn’t imagine it, wouldn’t that make a pretty superb ability for Eldar? Get inside the targets mind and strike them temporarily mute, or force them to give a daft order - however you want to background explain, it could make for a seriously pokey ability, as used cleverly, you can interrupt their synergy, making them easier prey?

Now, exactly how widespread that should be, and whether it should be automatic or contested roll I’ll again leave to wiser minds than my own.

Perhaps an old classic in the form of Doom could allow for free targeting of enemy characters? Or at least to grant that ability to a nominate unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How effective is redeployment before the game these days? I know the Deceiver used to be able to do this, but is presently considered a bit naff - but not sure if these are particularly closely linked.

Hell, why not allow Craftworld Eldar to withhold deploying a number of units to reflect their predictive abilities? Or force the opponent to deploy a set number before alternating?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 13:35:02


Post by: dhallnet


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Am I right in thinking we’ve seen the odd power or stratagem which can switch off buff bubbles?

If so, and I didn’t imagine it, wouldn’t that make a pretty superb ability for Eldar? Get inside the targets mind and strike them temporarily mute, or force them to give a daft order - however you want to background explain, it could make for a seriously pokey ability, as used cleverly, you can interrupt their synergy, making them easier prey?

Now, exactly how widespread that should be, and whether it should be automatic or contested roll I’ll again leave to wiser minds than my own.

Perhaps an old classic in the form of Doom could allow for free targeting of enemy characters? Or at least to grant that ability to a nominate unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How effective is redeployment before the game these days? I know the Deceiver used to be able to do this, but is presently considered a bit naff - but not sure if these are particularly closely linked.

Hell, why not allow Craftworld Eldar to withhold deploying a number of units to reflect their predictive abilities? Or force the opponent to deploy a set number before alternating?

CWE already have a strat to redeploy a bunch of units. It could become free but it's kind of a powerful rule under the right circumstances.
Turning off auras and obsec are some of DA's psychic powers, if I'm not mistaken Mortarion can turn off auras too, and yes this kind of shenanigans should and is becoming more common.
Is this what CWE needs ? I don't know, they kinda need a lot of stuff to change, not only to make them decent but also interesting.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 14:08:26


Post by: InVerno


A.T. wrote:
 InVerno wrote:
Problem is, eldar should hit so hard you could not hit back, that is the definition of glass cannon, and with a good banshee charge you can kill 3 marine at best, and when they hit back they will oblitered the squad
But all of the suggestions so far have been about making the eldar hard to hit, harder to wound, harder to charge, better saves.

To be a glass cannon you need the glass as well as the cannon. But that has never exactly been the eldars style.


Never said i want them toughter, i want every eldar unit to be like the aspect warriors they are supposed to be, banshee should do a lot of damage and be very frail, for objective holding i want DA or wraith units.

Eldar should be rewarding when you use the units well for what they are designed for, and not forgiving when you make mistakes (example: if you leave banshee on open field as easy target or when you let your dark reapers in melee)


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 14:39:42


Post by: A.T.


 InVerno wrote:
Never said i want them toughter, i want every eldar unit to be like the aspect warriors they are supposed to be, banshee should do a lot of damage and be very frail, for objective holding i want DA or wraith units.
It was intended as a broad reply to try and cover the several pages of posts. The general trend of suggestions in the thread have revolved around either making the eldar tougher or making opponents less able to play back against them.



dhallnet wrote:
Same as stuff forcing you to fight last, removing auras, hit modifiers, invuls, reducing/ignoring invuls, reanimation protocols, whatever. You're just making distinctions based on opinions/taste. Or those are bad too but you forgot about them while they are becoming increasingly common.
No, I didn't forget about them, they just hadn't come up in this thread until you mentioned them. Playing against things like the the old necron decurion certainly wasn't all that fun either.
But in 9th most of those you mention are at least singular effects with the option of mitigation by counter-play, rather than army wide rules that just screw your opponent.

If it was a different faction - say daemons for example - that got army wide '4+ or worse only' would you really be happy about your costly 2+ and 3+ to hit units against them? Or would you post about how GW screwed eldar again by creating a rule that hurts elite units with low volume high accuracy weapons?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 14:42:49


Post by: dhallnet


A.T. wrote:

dhallnet wrote:
Same as stuff forcing you to fight last, removing auras, hit modifiers, invuls, reducing/ignoring invuls, reanimation protocols, whatever. You're just making distinctions based on opinions/taste. Or those are bad too but you forgot about them while they are becoming increasingly common.
No, I didn't forget about them, they just hadn't come up in this thread until you mentioned them. Playing against things like the the old necron decurion certainly wasn't all that fun either.
But in 9th most of those you mention are at least singular effects with the option of mitigation by counter-play, rather than army wide rules that just screw your opponent.

If it was a different faction - say daemons for example - that got army wide '4+ or worse only' would you really be happy about your costly 2+ and 3+ to hit units against them? Or would you post about how GW screwed eldar again by creating a rule that hurts elite units with low volume high accuracy weapons?

I don't reach to my keyboard as soon as I see a potentially good rule in an army that I don't play. So I guess I would wait to see how the whole book plays ? It's like the outrage about how hordes and close combat would be dead with 9th before anyone even had the chance to even read the rules in the book.
And we're spit balling here, so if an idea needs polish, it's to be expected.
Also, not all of these have counterplay or are counterable by everyone.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 14:49:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Dial back a wee bit please gents.

In terms of Craftworld play style, I’d say it should be close to a Blue deck in MtG, in that it should be about careful control.

Maybe not quite as frustrating as a blue deck (oh, you’re spending loads of man? Let me stop you with...erm....one mana. Lol), but certainly ways to manipulate your opponents actions to your own ends.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 14:56:05


Post by: A.T.


dhallnet wrote:
I don't reach to my keyboard as soon as I see a potentially good rule in an army that I don't play.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that it's not a good rule.
At least not good in terms of the game balance or experience. 40k already has something of an issue with the limited outcomes of a 6 sided dice without a rule that makes every shot a coin flip instead.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 14:56:19


Post by: InVerno


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dial back a wee bit please gents.

In terms of Craftworld play style, I’d say it should be close to a Blue deck in MtG, in that it should be about careful control.

Maybe not quite as frustrating as a blue deck (oh, you’re spending loads of man? Let me stop you with...erm....one mana. Lol), but certainly ways to manipulate your opponents actions to your own ends.


Actually countering a unit action (shooting/moving/ etc) could be a nice idea, obv it should be at a heavy cost (CP/PSI power etc) or a roll that gets highter and if you fail it you get penalised


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 14:59:40


Post by: dhallnet


A.T. wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
I don't reach to my keyboard as soon as I see a potentially good rule in an army that I don't play.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that it's not a good rule.
At least not good in terms of the game balance or experience. 40k already has something of an issue with the limited outcomes of a 6 sided dice without a rule that makes every shot a coin flip instead.

It's as good a rule as anything else currently. Should it be on the whole army or not and/or having conditions though ? Maybe. But the idea in itself isn't flat out wrong.
And I think it's because we're limited to 5 results (since 1 is never a success afaik) that these kind of rules are needed. If there were 7 or 9 results possible instead, we could go back to modifiers or less binary rules, aka : they can't give modifiers because they take the risk of them removing any chance to do anything so instead they cap the successes.
Although, we all seem to have no issue with saves being modified so hard that you can't take them and requiring caps to failures in some cases (invuls). Weird.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 InVerno wrote:
Actually countering a unit action (shooting/moving/ etc) could be a nice idea, obv it should be at a heavy cost (CP/PSI power etc) or a roll that gets highter and if you fail it you get penalised

I think flat out denying an action is entering the realm of "not fun". Decreasing it's effectiveness though looks fine. Maybe effects like swooping hawk blinding a unit with their flashlights could force that unit to reduce it's movement (instead of doing barely anything useful nowadays) or monowires. This kind of stuff would bring the "combined arms" and synergy approach without relying only on strat/psy powers.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 15:09:40


Post by: yukishiro1


Another way to simulate the impact of the Farseers foreseeing things would be some kind of Fate Point system or something like that, which allows you to guarantee certain predetermined results and/or give substantial bonuses at key times. In keeping with the theme, you could have to declare what they are going to be used for ahead of time secretly, then reveal them as they come up. There's a million different directions you could go with it - it could be turn-based, i.e. "this turn I use a fate point to give all my units +1 to saves" or unit based, i.e. "the first time this unit is selected as a target for attacks, until the end of the phase, it gets a 4+ FNP" or "the first time this unit makes a charge roll, it automatically succeeds" or whatever else. Numbers just examples, not a suggestion of particular values.

I think what this thread shows is that there are actually tons of different ways you could make Eldar better match their lore and be more interesting on the tabletop, it's just that GW has not shown any interest in any of them for many editions now.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 15:13:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Those are cool ideas.

Definitely make it a resource to be husbanded, rather than ‘tech says no’ type native stuff.

And once again....Let Warlock’s Be Squad Leaders For Guardians!


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 15:16:00


Post by: InVerno


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Those are cool ideas.

Definitely make it a resource to be husbanded, rather than ‘tech says no’ type native stuff.

And once again....Let Warlock’s Be Squad Leaders For Guardians!


Even cooler if spiritseer could be wraith squad leader


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 15:44:04


Post by: A.T.


dhallnet wrote:
Although, we all seem to have no issue with saves being modified so hard that you can't take them and requiring caps to failures in some cases (invuls). Weird.
Yeah, those old iron hands and their save modfiers. What a blast they were.
More broadly speaking high save modifiers tend to be applied to low volume of fire weapons, so are a trade-off. Similarly invulnerable saves protect you against the quality but not the quantity and do become a real problem when you end up with army wide high invulnerable saves.

Rolls to hit are a notable problem however as it's no longer a case of trying to match suitable attacks to suitable targets, whole armies just lose power arbitrarily and across the board.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 15:45:58


Post by: Cronch



That doesn’t mean Banshees should be able to carve through a squad of Marines in a single turn for instance.

Going by the lore, they should. They each have more experience carving up enemies with swords than a chapter master of astartes. Hell, a single banshee probably has more total hours of combat experience than a whole company of Primaris, seeing as they only operated for around 100 years now.

The problem with Eldar is that in lore, loss of even one individual is a tragedy, and the army hits hard and hits so well it rarely loses those individuals.
That can't translate to tabletop, because if you spent the whole game to kill one banshee and two guardians out of an army, it'd feel massively frustrating, even if those three models netted you 20x more VP than the eldar killing 10 of your models.

To me it sounds like a fun rule- they get obscene rules, being ancient, experienced warriors armed with technology far outside of human grasp, but they lose even a few, and they lose the game no matter how many VPs the score otherwise.
But I suspect most people would hate that high risk gameplay, and the other player might not get the same rush as they would from removing 10 models in one successful shooting round.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 15:55:06


Post by: dhallnet


A.T. wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Although, we all seem to have no issue with saves being modified so hard that you can't take them and requiring caps to failures in some cases (invuls). Weird.
Yeah, those old iron hands and their save modfiers. What a blast they were.
More broadly speaking high save modifiers tend to be applied to low volume of fire weapons, so are a trade-off. Similarly invulnerable saves protect you against the quality but not the quantity and do become a real problem when you end up with army wide high invulnerable saves.

Rolls to hit are a notable problem however as it's no longer a case of trying to match suitable attacks to suitable targets, whole armies just lose power arbitrarily and across the board.

It's the exact same thing, if my army is designed to have low armour pen in general (and I'm not sure a lot of armies are able to spam a good amount of armour pen or do it in shooting as well as in melee), it will suffer against armies that have good armour values only.
There also is some stuff that hit with bonuses or on static values, auto hits, have rerolls available, etc to mitigate a hard cap on hitting results. I dunno if it is enough to counter an army full of these but as I said, maybe applying on some units only would be fine. If 2+/3+ to hit rerolling blobs aren't breaking the game, the idea of "to hit" caps in itself isn't something that would break it either imho. How it's applied might though.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 15:58:32


Post by: Wyldhunt


 InVerno wrote:
A.T. wrote:
 InVerno wrote:
Problem is, eldar should hit so hard you could not hit back, that is the definition of glass cannon, and with a good banshee charge you can kill 3 marine at best, and when they hit back they will oblitered the squad
But all of the suggestions so far have been about making the eldar hard to hit, harder to wound, harder to charge, better saves.

To be a glass cannon you need the glass as well as the cannon. But that has never exactly been the eldars style.


Never said i want them toughter, i want every eldar unit to be like the aspect warriors they are supposed to be, banshee should do a lot of damage and be very frail, for objective holding i want DA or wraith units.

Eldar should be rewarding when you use the units well for what they are designed for, and not forgiving when you make mistakes (example: if you leave banshee on open field as easy target or when you let your dark reapers in melee)

Question: Should craftworlders actually be "glass cannons"? The faction's whole thing is that they try to avoid losing any more lives than they have to. They're less heavily armored than some armies, and they're only T3, but should, "dies easily during the opponent's turn," be a description that applies to them?

I say no, and that's why I like the idea of emphasizing their ability to stay alive via dodging and coordination. If we just raise their lethality through the roof so that the enemy is too dead to meaningfully counterattack, then we just contribute to the arms race and risk making craftworlders a frustrating alpha strike army.



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:02:17


Post by: A.T.


dhallnet wrote:
It's the exact same thing, if my army is designed to have low armour pen in general (and I'm not sure a lot of army are able to spam a good amount of armour pen or do it in shooting as well as in melee), it will suffer against armies that have good armour values only.
Your army would be paying the low cost of low penetration weapons. Their army would be paying the high cost of having all good armour values. In return you get more models on the table, they fail less saves - you both get what you have paid for.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:03:43


Post by: dhallnet


A.T. wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
It's the exact same thing, if my army is designed to have low armour pen in general (and I'm not sure a lot of army are able to spam a good amount of armour pen or do it in shooting as well as in melee), it will suffer against armies that have good armour values only.
Your army would be paying the low cost of low penetration weapons. Their army would be paying the high cost of having all good armour values. In return you get more models on the table, they fail less saves - you both get what you have paid for.

Did anyone say the ability to cap to hit values should be free ?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:05:05


Post by: Wyldhunt


Karol wrote:


That's why I like the ward save approach. It's just a straight up, "Ignore 1/3rd of the harm you would normally suffer because you're fast enough to avoid/mitigate harm." Plus, it works against both melee and shooting attacks, and you don't have weird interactions with the modern to-hit modifier rules.

But it has a ton of interactions with one shot weapons or armies that are build around less numerous number of stronger attacks. Any army that wouldn't be able to spam melta weapons, and uses 1-2 shot heavy weapons for anti tank would not be able to destroy an eldar vehicles with a cumulative -2 to hit and a ++5 sv in melee and shoting.

Not sure why you're applying the cumulative to-hit penalty on top of the 5++ ward save. My pitch is to just give them the ward save. And only after they charged or advanced, and probably instead of the current benefits of Battle Focus.

Low rate of fire weapons having trouble hitting the backflip ninjas feels like a feature rather than a bug, but you could always make the ward save only apply to infantry and bikes if it was really a problem. Just like the current Battle Focus. I'm very okay with lascannons and sniper rifles being bad at 360 no-scoping the ninja elves.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:06:30


Post by: dhallnet


Wyldhunt wrote:

Question: Should craftworlders actually be "glass cannons"? The faction's whole thing is that they try to avoid losing any more lives than they have to. They're less heavily armored than some armies, and they're only T3, but should, "dies easily during the opponent's turn," be a description that applies to them?

I say no, and that's why I like the idea of emphasizing their ability to stay alive via dodging and coordination. If we just raise their lethality through the roof so that the enemy is too dead to meaningfully counterattack, then we just contribute to the arms race and risk making craftworlders a frustrating alpha strike army.

They are conceptually supposed to be the most resilient Eldar flavour due to their access to more heavily armoured machines/constructs and are supposed to be the most suited to wage war.
I'm not sure it's holding up these days


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:12:29


Post by: A.T.


dhallnet wrote:
Did anyone say the ability to cap to hit values should be free ?
I'm honestly not sure how you would go about costing it as an army-wide ability, though as a stratagem it would work well and as a unit-specific ability it would probably work too.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:20:15


Post by: dhallnet


A.T. wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Did anyone say the ability to cap to hit values should be free ?
I'm honestly not sure how you would go about costing it as an army-wide ability, though as a stratagem it would work well and as a unit-specific ability it would probably work too.

To be honest, I feel like if they can manage to give free caps on to wound rolls to Inner circle, they can give free "to hit" caps to some eldar units. I don't know how they would manage to do it on the scale of the army but it might also just be the only defence they have and be fine. CWE isn't brimming with good saves or invuls outside of certain builds (for the good saves part) but I guess to start we could not give this hypothetical rule to wraith units as it might be too much and not really inline with the idea.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:22:52


Post by: Tyel


I don't think CWE have been meaningfully "Glass Cannon" since 2nd/3rd edition. They have some glass cannon units - but as a rule, even back to 3rd, people just take the cannon and ditch the glass. As a rule people don't take say 60 Guardians and have them run across no mans land for the glory of Khaine.

Some sort of Mech has predominated for.. 15ish years(?). Its unclear Falcons or Wave Serpents are in any sense fragile by comparison with other factions. The flyers are just flyers, psykers had a 4++ before it was cool etc.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:26:09


Post by: dhallnet


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Those are cool ideas.

Definitely make it a resource to be husbanded, rather than ‘tech says no’ type native stuff.

And once again....Let Warlock’s Be Squad Leaders For Guardians!

We can't have "characters" be squad leaders anymore. There are no rules for mixed toughness/armour and GW didn't publish any unit like that since 8th.
There could be mechanics to let warlocks help guardians more easily though (like auras for example).

Edit : Scratch that, different armour save isn't an issue and both units have the same toughness. GIVE US BACK OUR WARLOCKS GW !
Edit 2 : And there are a few cases of mixed stuff.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:26:35


Post by: Karol


dhallnet 796763 11075267 wrote:
To be honest, I feel like if they can manage to give free caps on to wound rolls to Inner circle, they can give free "to hit" caps to some eldar units. I don't know how they would manage to do it on the scale of the army but it might also just be the only defence they have and be fine. CWE isn't brimming with good saves or invuls outside of certain builds (for the good saves part) but I guess to start we could not give this hypothetical rule to wraith units as it might be too much and not really inline with the idea.


there is still a difference in getting it on inner circle models, and getting it on the whole army. Stuff has dimnishing returns. When you are hitng a big multi wound eldar model with an inv save on +5 there are some problems with it.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:27:39


Post by: dhallnet


Tyel wrote:
psykers had a 4++ before it was cool etc.

Or even rerollable 3++


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:28:38


Post by: the_scotsman


Tyel wrote:
I don't think CWE have been meaningfully "Glass Cannon" since 2nd/3rd edition. They have some glass cannon units - but as a rule, even back to 3rd, people just take the cannon and ditch the glass. As a rule people don't take say 60 Guardians and have them run across no mans land for the glory of Khaine.

.


Only because you dont play my eldar babyyyyyyyyyyy

avatar

summoned

storm guardians

assembled

one of each aspect warrior squad

standing around awkwardly like people cosplaying the same character at an anime convention

I am ejected from the battlefield.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:29:28


Post by: dhallnet


Karol wrote:
dhallnet 796763 11075267 wrote:
To be honest, I feel like if they can manage to give free caps on to wound rolls to Inner circle, they can give free "to hit" caps to some eldar units. I don't know how they would manage to do it on the scale of the army but it might also just be the only defence they have and be fine. CWE isn't brimming with good saves or invuls outside of certain builds (for the good saves part) but I guess to start we could not give this hypothetical rule to wraith units as it might be too much and not really inline with the idea.


there is still a difference in getting it on inner circle models, and getting it on the whole army. Stuff has dimnishing returns. When you are hitng a big multi wound eldar model with an inv save on +5 there are some problems with it.

Weird since I field armies comprised of inner circle units only.
Which big multi wound eldar has a 5++ ? A knight ? It's only against range and he gives up firepower for that. And even then how many of those do you see breaking the game at the moment ? Yep, none.
You might also notice that I said "To be honest, I feel like if they can manage to give free caps on to wound rolls to Inner circle, they can give free "to hit" caps to some eldar units."


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:35:54


Post by: Tyel


dhallnet wrote:
We can't have "characters" be squad leaders anymore. There are no rules for mixed toughness/armour and GW didn't publish any unit like that since 8th.
There could be mechanics to let warlocks help guardians more easily though (like auras for example).


Huh.
Was convinced weapon platforms were T4. And that immobile not-drone Fire Warriors can take. Turns out this isn't the case.
Although... Deathwatch are a thing. So presumably its not actually impossible.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:40:14


Post by: dhallnet


Tyel wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
We can't have "characters" be squad leaders anymore. There are no rules for mixed toughness/armour and GW didn't publish any unit like that since 8th.
There could be mechanics to let warlocks help guardians more easily though (like auras for example).


Huh.
Was convinced weapon platforms were T4. And that immobile not-drone Fire Warriors can take. Turns out this isn't the case.
Although... Deathwatch are a thing. So presumably its not actually impossible.

Yep I had a brainfart, I edited my post in the mean time.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:43:00


Post by: Flinty


Another potential route is to.tie a lot of benefits in to the farseer. Then the opponent has a specific target to go for and the eldar player needs to balance buffed offence against defence of their farseer. If the farseer does, the benefits go.too.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 16:53:36


Post by: A.T.


 Flinty wrote:
Another potential route is to.tie a lot of benefits in to the farseer. Then the opponent has a specific target to go for and the eldar player needs to balance buffed offence against defence of their farseer. If the farseer does, the benefits go.too.
The old beta-codex sisters worked a little like that. I remember a battle report back in 8th where a cron player rolled out a combined fire strategem turn 1, nuked all of the bubble characters at once with the first shot and the game was over :p


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 17:17:11


Post by: Mezmorki


Warlocks supporting guardians has been a cornerstone of guardian power + utility through all of the classic editions, as well as strong thematic element (every eldar has some psychic ability). Crazy that you can't do that anymore. Not sure why Warlocks aren't just an upgrade option for guardian units.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 18:28:24


Post by: Argive


Would it be so bad if we went back to affect tables?
Command protocols, chaos knight pacts etc. are already some veriance of this in my opinion.

I wouldint be opposed to Eldar Farseers providing some sort of table of buffs army wide you roll for before battle to then apply in respective battle rounds.

Like so:

1 - Eldritch storm shroud - Improve Cover save by a further +1
2 - Precision Strike - Heavy weapons Deal extra 1D against vehicle and monster units
3 - Fleet of foot - Add 2" to M characteristic
4 - Decapitating Strike - Add 1 to attack characteristic
5 - Forwarning - Add 2 CP to your CP pool
6 - Add +1 to wound rolls against Infantry models

The idea is you roll these up before battle round and use to plan your startegy. If you roll up +1 A in BR1 you probably won't see any benefit as you are unlikely to be in combat. But likewise if you get the heavy weapon one and all you face is infantry / loose your heavy weapons by T3 it wont really benefit.

Anyway. Spitballing here..


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 19:01:41


Post by: Racerguy180


Slipspace wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
You can take off and nuke the site from orbit


It's the only way to be sure.

But this facility has a SUBSTANTIAL dollar value attached to it.


Back on topic

A system like miracle dice or wraithpoints would be an interesting take if the made it different enuff.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 19:56:43


Post by: kryczek


I don't feel modifiers are going to work as the current ruleset really prevents stacking now and I can't see them doing away with that or giving exceptions. I would like to see our movement actually mean something as were supposed to be the fastest race in the game.

What about a defence against to hit roll's in a way? Some thing like asuryani warhost units get a 6+ against the hits that maybe gets upped to a 5+ if the unit advanced.

So attacker would roll to hit dice applying modifiers and re-rolls as usual and give successfull hits to asuryani player who would then roll them as above and the attacker would then roll to wound with the fails. You could add psy powers to change the roll or give exarch powers a way to affect it. Ie scorpion exarchs could have a power that gives +2 if the unit they are assaulting is in cover, that sort of thing.

I think of it as a front loaded RP and would fit with the fluff and effect no unit or army type above another, as far as I can tell so far. It would still allow what modifiers that exist to apply but give us a unique rule that I think fits. Call it what you want and add it to a better battle focus adjust points accordingly and I'd be a happy camper.

Cheers, K

Edit: Dodge, I've just realised this is a sort of old dodge save lol.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 19:59:48


Post by: Karol


 Mezmorki wrote:
Warlocks supporting guardians has been a cornerstone of guardian power + utility through all of the classic editions, as well as strong thematic element (every eldar has some psychic ability). Crazy that you can't do that anymore. Not sure why Warlocks aren't just an upgrade option for guardian units.

The guardian box doesn't come with an eldar warlock inside the box, would be the prime reason.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 20:22:24


Post by: Cronch


I wouldint be opposed to Eldar Farseers providing some sort of table of buffs army wide you roll for before battle to then apply in respective battle rounds.

I feel like random tables kind of undermine the concept of master psykers being able to peer into the future to plan for the perfect strike.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 20:28:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I dunno, it would represent that they don’t always get it quite right.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 20:40:03


Post by: Frazzled


In ancient times of gaming Eldar were the technology race. They could hit and run with spiders when others couldn't. They could deepstrike with hawks when others couldn't. Their farseer had serious pyker powers.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 20:42:01


Post by: Cronch


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I dunno, it would represent that they don’t always get it quite right.

Idoneth (and DoK) that this rule kind of matches in concept have set order, and it helps with planning for your game. On a purely tabletop level making it random just makes it another variable to fight against, while set order makes it something you can plan around from the start. And one less thing to keep track of during the game (was it 1,5,4,2,3 or 1,4,5,2,3....). And I really don't think eldar deserve to have their biggest asset turned into orky randomness. GW loves it's random tables far too much, cause it takes away the weight of balancing off them. Oh this is balanced, you just rolled poorly (then how is it balanced...)


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 20:44:25


Post by: Hellebore


IMO too much of the eldar has been tied to the farseer.

There's an autarch there who should be able to lead the army without a farseer.

This IMO is one of the reasons the eldar become a gimmick army using only a few good units.

Everything is set up to rely on psychic intervention, buffing units and piling on the upgrades. Which makes them a one trick pony, because then it's always built around a farseer.

Not even tyranids, who have been specifically designed around synapse to function in the background, rely on a hive tyrant as much as the eldar currently rely on farseers to function at all.

It's a mistake to go even HARDER on the farseers, because it's reinforcing a one dimensional angle of the eldar and likely just encouraging the same play style.

You'll see that over the last few editions the 'optimal' eldar forces have been whatever unit was made better than the others, spammed, with seer buff support.

This is one of the reasons they're so annoying to other players and frankly boring to play.



GW needs to reevaluate the entire army, look at it as a force by itself and THEN add psykers in as a supplement, rather than a requirement. They are a capable of military force, they don't always need psychic babysitting to perform their missions. There aren't enough farseers to attend every battlefield.




Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 20:48:25


Post by: Cronch


don't tie it to a single unit. Idoneth have their Tides of Battle regardless of who's on the tabletop, the "farseer" (Tidecaster) just lets you flip the order of the turn buffs from 1-5 to 5-1.
Seriously, elves in AoS have so many good ideas you could plunder for the eldar it's not funny. Maybe not *all* of them, giving the whole army psychic power to make their weapons do MW on 5+ to hit would be a bit OP...


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:12:16


Post by: yukishiro1


Having a mechanic to simulate the farseer foreseeing how things are going to turn out and manipulating them doesn't depend on having a farseer on the table - though if you wanted to, you could maybe give a bonus to the effect if you do.

I.e. Any Eldar army that is 50% or more CWE by points gets gets X fate points to spend secretly before the game like I described above; if you take a farseer, you get X+1, or X+3 for Eldrad. Something like that.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:18:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


True enough. Craftworld forces are generally directed by a Farseer, even if the Farseer doesn’t join them.

As for Warlocks? If they’re not already, let people field them as I can Crypteks, with up to three counting as a single slot.

Or if they’re currently T4, just drop them to T3 and let them be chosen for Guardian squads as a Marine Squad can have a Veteran Sergent.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:18:56


Post by: Adrassil


 Hellebore wrote:
IMO too much of the eldar has been tied to the farseer.

There's an autarch there who should be able to lead the army without a farseer.

This IMO is one of the reasons the eldar become a gimmick army using only a few good units.

Everything is set up to rely on psychic intervention, buffing units and piling on the upgrades. Which makes them a one trick pony, because then it's always built around a farseer.

Not even tyranids, who have been specifically designed around synapse to function in the background, rely on a hive tyrant as much as the eldar currently rely on farseers to function at all.

It's a mistake to go even HARDER on the farseers, because it's reinforcing a one dimensional angle of the eldar and likely just encouraging the same play style.

You'll see that over the last few editions the 'optimal' eldar forces have been whatever unit was made better than the others, spammed, with seer buff support.

This is one of the reasons they're so annoying to other players and frankly boring to play.



GW needs to reevaluate the entire army, look at it as a force by itself and THEN add psykers in as a supplement, rather than a requirement. They are a capable of military force, they don't always need psychic babysitting to perform their missions. There aren't enough farseers to attend every battlefield.




Couldn't agree more.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:29:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yet that’s traditionally how Eldar have worked on the table top?

Farseer and Warlocks use their powers to alter dice rolls, whether in your favour for friendly rolls, or negatively for opponent’s rolls.

That’s their jive, man. That’s what they do. I would say that’s what they do best, expect right now, it doesn’t seem to be true.

The trouble is, as I see it, right now it’s all too in-game. They don’t reflect how Craftworlders prepare for war.

They don’t just turn up on the off chance of a scrap. Each of their battles is a calculated intervention. The impact they seek isn’t necessarily annihilating the enemy force. It could be as simple as quadra-spazzing a single, very specific Guardsman - because it has been foreseen that person is a link in a chain which spells Major Trouble. Their fate needn’t even be interesting (such as somehow becoming the next Lord Solar. It could be they’re the clumsy git that trips up, busts their nose and bleeds all over the wrong thing, awakening a Tomb World which would otherwise slumber on).

That? That can be done with objectives and bonus VPs.

For Matched Play, perhaps allow the Craftworld player to select their Secondaries once you know what your opponent is fielding? Or allow them to score Double Points for fulfilling one of their chosen Secondaries?

Perhaps have it done as a secret note. The reason I suggest that is if your opponent knows, they can move to specifically counter - which to my mind doesn’t really suit the intent behind the rule.

And remember. All the suggestions I’m farting out my brain hole, and others are making aren’t intended to be cumulative. This is spitballing, not a list of demands


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:47:49


Post by: dhallnet


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

That’s their jive, man. That’s what they do. I would say that’s what they do best, expect right now, it doesn’t seem to be true.

Yeah but this focus, as already mentioned, is at the same time what kept them good and "bad". Some units can't be good because "you have buffs from this and this and this !", some slip through and become too good because of the buffs, etc.
And it's a bit boring to start every single list with a farseer and two warlocks.
At least, you could keep the focus on buffs/debuffs, but not tie them to the psychers. This "ancient arcane weaponry" they're supposed to have, could do some work too. Bring back a form of the "over powered" scatter laser and let its hits provide +1 to hit to other units, monowire weapons prevent fall back, blinding lasblasters reduce movement, whatever, go nuts and make them redundant so you don't end up with 20 different buffs available if you pick psychers + aspects, and we're good to go.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:48:52


Post by: Argive


My proposition doesn't have to mean that the Farseer has to be on the table. It could be representative that he had directed the force to battle in the first place.

Then having an actual Farseer take to the field could let you manipulate the "tides/Docrines/Protocols/whatever" to some degree or improve them maybe?

One of the things I really disliked about 8th was the overwhelming reliance on farseers to the point you had to base your army around that and take one or at least two.

We did get that somewhat fixed with Expert Crafters meaning that Doom and Guide combo, which lets be honest was the only play worth making with CWE, was no longer the most optima way to run. We got freed up from having to take a big blob of "something" and then buffing it up to the gills in order for it to function. And also failing the psychic tests and auto loosing...

But I don't like the idea of the Farseer to simply be a MW battery... I think smite in general is a boring mechanic. It means all psykers basiclay do the same thing. Was really dispointed they kept that in.

I like the idea of farseers manipulating dice. Obviosuly anything like that makes things OP.
I remember playing vs my friends ulthwe and he was rerolling all the saving throws.. that was a bit much. But now when you often have to make 20+ saving throw from a single units shooting it wont matter for poor guardians getting hosed.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:55:42


Post by: Adrassil


I think it should depend on the Craftworld, some like Ulthwe are heavily dependant on farseers and such, but it'd be nice to not have to depend on them so much especially for homebrew fluff options. Such as my own which seems to have their vision of the future constantly being blocked by their enemies, so have learned to less lean on the "crutch" of far sight so much.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 22:59:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think the balance that needs to be struck is as follows...

You can stack your buffs and your nerfs. But, being inherently squishy, should you blow it, it’s gonna cost you. That way, you can frustrate your opponent, and should you eff it up, they can take that frustration out on you without mercy.

My thoughts also turn to Aspects. Now this isn’t a complete thing. But consider the Fire Dragon. Their Exarch is a bit odd, as he can have a weapon with a longer range than his mates, or a Heavy Flamer equivalent. Both are kinda oddball fits. After all, the Firepike on its own won’t achieve a massive amount - so you’re still wanting to get your other dudes nice and close, yes? But what if the Exarch could snipe with the Firepike, and use his Heavy Flamer to torch a unit freshly disembarked from a vehicle his mates just slagged - or representing him aiming it at the whole they just melted in it.

But i definitely feel they need some kind of pre-first turn shenanigans. Because joking apart, I find it very in-character for a Craftworld’s opponent to say something like “oh you Richardcranium” in response to shifty sneaky stuff.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 23:05:58


Post by: Hellebore


I think there's a big difference between farseers telling autarchs where they need to go to war and the autarchs prosecuting one.

Farseers should only be on the battlefield if there's a fated reason/need of psychic shenanigans to intervene in that particular instance.

Otherwise, the eldar army should function 100% under the autarchs and their command structure.

Farseers aren't military leaders, they're advisors.

Warlocks are overtly militaristic psykers as they are ex aspects, so them showing up on the battlefield is wholly expected.


So IMO they should be creating an Autarch and guardian command structure, build the army around that, and then add farseers and warlocks as optional support.

The army should completely function without a single psyker present.






Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 23:17:14


Post by: Insectum7


 Hellebore wrote:
I think there's a big difference between farseers telling autarchs where they need to go to war and the autarchs prosecuting one.

Farseers should only be on the battlefield if there's a fated reason/need of psychic shenanigans to intervene in that particular instance.

Otherwise, the eldar army should function 100% under the autarchs and their command structure.

Farseers aren't military leaders, they're advisors.

Warlocks are overtly militaristic psykers as they are ex aspects, so them showing up on the battlefield is wholly expected.


So IMO they should be creating an Autarch and guardian command structure, build the army around that, and then add farseers and warlocks as optional support.

The army should completely function without a single psyker present.


I find that a little hard to reconcile with the fact that Farseers have been commanders in Eldar armies since as long as I can remember. I mean I understand the idea behind a non-Farseer-led force being competent and available, but Farseers themselves have always been such a keystone in 40k because they have these explicitly combat oriented psychic abilities. Granted, I also really like the ancient "pointing" Farseer model from ancient times, since he doesn't have his weapon drawn. He looks like somebody who should sit in the back, directing and providing psychic support.

Imo that model is the counterpoint to the original "Sicarius" Captain model. You know the UM one. A commander who's concentrating on commanding rather than fighting themselves.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/10 23:32:01


Post by: Argive


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think the balance that needs to be struck is as follows...

You can stack your buffs and your nerfs. But, being inherently squishy, should you blow it, it’s gonna cost you. That way, you can frustrate your opponent, and should you eff it up, they can take that frustration out on you without mercy.


Please no.. Already had to live through this throughout most of 8th edition.
Loosing a game simply because you failed your Doom & guide 7+ psychic test on 2D6 in your first turn is weak sauce.. Anyone whos played CWE has been there.

That's why people are fed up with farseer being the lynchpin you HAVE TO base your army around weather for buffs or debuffs. Because without them the units you take on their own are not good enough.

Its only thanks to Expert Crafters Customer Craftworld trait (which is mini Doom & Guide rolled into one) were we able to get creative and make lists without any farseers and warlocks at all and still have a chance of winning. It was even worse in the CHE age..

1/2 of your army pts was spoken for(Faseers + Warlock + 3x Troops+ 3 X Crimson Hunter Exarchs) before you even started writing a list... Its not a good place to be.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 00:08:44


Post by: Hellebore


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
I think there's a big difference between farseers telling autarchs where they need to go to war and the autarchs prosecuting one.

Farseers should only be on the battlefield if there's a fated reason/need of psychic shenanigans to intervene in that particular instance.

Otherwise, the eldar army should function 100% under the autarchs and their command structure.

Farseers aren't military leaders, they're advisors.

Warlocks are overtly militaristic psykers as they are ex aspects, so them showing up on the battlefield is wholly expected.


So IMO they should be creating an Autarch and guardian command structure, build the army around that, and then add farseers and warlocks as optional support.

The army should completely function without a single psyker present.


I find that a little hard to reconcile with the fact that Farseers have been commanders in Eldar armies since as long as I can remember. I mean I understand the idea behind a non-Farseer-led force being competent and available, but Farseers themselves have always been such a keystone in 40k because they have these explicitly combat oriented psychic abilities. Granted, I also really like the ancient "pointing" Farseer model from ancient times, since he doesn't have his weapon drawn. He looks like somebody who should sit in the back, directing and providing psychic support.

Imo that model is the counterpoint to the original "Sicarius" Captain model. You know the UM one. A commander who's concentrating on commanding rather than fighting themselves.


So this is an interesting discussion and something that's ironically due to the slight revision of the eldar in 4th ed.

In 2nd ed, you had the option of taking a farseer or an avatar as your force commander. The avatar was 300pts and the farseer was 170+wargear, so in the end they end up being relatively similar in cost. The 3rd option was a great harlequin if the whole army was harlequin units.

So you could take an army of nothing but the avatar, exarchs and aspects and the army would function fine.

Interesting to note that guardians had their own squad leader (designated without a separate statline) who had access to special weapons separate from the rest of the unit. The farseer had a set of powers that were not as integrated into the functionality of the army and they were shared with the warlock. Only Mind war (roll between 5 and 7 d6 -6s cause a wound with no save on the target model), Doom (one model doomed is auto wounded) and battlefate (+1 to hit for targeted unit).

The remaining powers, executioner, fortune, guide, eldritch storm, destructor were useable by warlocks and farseers, so the farseer wasn't as necessary to buff the army, and there were already plenty of bonuses floating around so a +1 to hit was not earthshattering.


For 3rd, you could only take an avatar or a farseer with the warlock bodyguard as HQ. Eldar lost exarchs, pirate captains, exodite lords as other HQ choices (and harlequins entirely).

As the avatar SUCKED, the farseer was pretty much the only HQ choice taken. So although you could technically reflect the avatar of khaine leading his followers (the exarch priests and their students) it was suboptimal due to a combo of focusing farseer powers to pure buff bot, and the avatar being crappy for its slot.

4th is where this changed and they added the Autarch to the army. This retconned the entire eldar military background somewhat and decided that the Autarch was the military commander of the eldar. Which annoyingly sidelined the exarchs while somehow still keeping phoenix lords as powerful exarchs...

The entry for the autarch specifically says that eldar armies led by autarchs act as well oiled machines. So they were clearly army leaders and were if not superior, at least equal to farseers in terms of command.

The eldar now have TWO(!) generic HQs to take. but again because the farseer was an effective buffbot and the rest of the army wasn't great at its job without those buffs, Autarchs were just not taken that much. They cost more and only granted +1 to reserves rolls. Farseers were cheaper and had more utility so kept getting taken.

And that's basically where the army still is today, 15 years later. Farseers are just too useful, the army is underpowered in order to balance what a farseer does, and the supposed military commander of the eldar army is ineffective an ignored.

Whatever my personal feelings on the very existence of an autarch, they're now supposed to be an equal choice (I would argue default due to their being more autarchs than farseers) but the combination of crappy units and farseer buffs make the seers far too valuable to not take.

If they retconned the retcon and made autarchs an elder exarch, I'd be fine with the farseer staying where it is to some extent. But if they're going to keep pushing autarchs as not fallen to the warrior path and tactical geniuses, they need to make them equal to the farseer, by either making the army more useful without farseers, or giving the autarch super buffs that compete with the seer's.







Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 00:15:26


Post by: Ielthan


Hellebore wrote:I think there's a big difference between farseers telling autarchs where they need to go to war and the autarchs prosecuting one.

Farseers should only be on the battlefield if there's a fated reason/need of psychic shenanigans to intervene in that particular instance.

Otherwise, the eldar army should function 100% under the autarchs and their command structure.

Farseers aren't military leaders, they're advisors.

Warlocks are overtly militaristic psykers as they are ex aspects, so them showing up on the battlefield is wholly expected.


So IMO they should be creating an Autarch and guardian command structure, build the army around that, and then add farseers and warlocks as optional support.

The army should completely function without a single psyker present.






No thank you.

Eldar are the most psychically powerful race. It's what they do. Let's not be imperial guard with elves. Bring back warlocks as guardian leaders, bring back seer councils, more psykers, not less. The autarch came in 4th edition, and was at least far more interesting than the current ultra bland version, but farseers are iconic. If you don't like them or psykers in general, to be frank eldar aren't the army for you.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 00:23:44


Post by: Insectum7


@Hellebore: Hmmm . . .

So, for 2nd I definitely ALWAYS saw a Farseer because not having a competing Lvl 4 psyker when the opponent had a level 4 psyker was more or less disastrous. Either way, I don't think we can count on Farseers going away as an Iconic Eldar include.

As for the Autarch, I think the general feeling is that the army ought to have UNITS that are capable of doing their job without the outside support of the traditional Farseer (or Autarch).

The Autarch then has to find yet another personal capability or niche-buff to put forward to have any worth. So, either he be a buff-elf, or he be able to sorta roll the way that 2nd Ed Exarchs used to roll, with lots of custom options with which to tailor their role.

Soo, yeah. . . I dunno what to do with those. I was pretty ok with their original incarnation but GW has trimmed back their options because of no-model-no-rulez. So I guess I'd advocate a much more customizeable unit and a sweet new kit or two (jetbike and non-jetbike Autarch kit with tons of options for each?) Then give him a nice ability to buff uints either this way or that.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 00:38:08


Post by: jaredb


dhallnet wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Those are cool ideas.

Definitely make it a resource to be husbanded, rather than ‘tech says no’ type native stuff.

And once again....Let Warlock’s Be Squad Leaders For Guardians!

We can't have "characters" be squad leaders anymore. There are no rules for mixed toughness/armour and GW didn't publish any unit like that since 8th.
There could be mechanics to let warlocks help guardians more easily though (like auras for example).

Edit : Scratch that, different armour save isn't an issue and both units have the same toughness. GIVE US BACK OUR WARLOCKS GW !
Edit 2 : And there are a few cases of mixed stuff.



Yeah, if Space Wolves can have Battle Leaders in their squads still, I don't see the issue with Warlocks. Both used to operate the same way back in the day. Just don't give them the character keyword in that case.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 00:47:28


Post by: Argive


Ielthan wrote:
Hellebore wrote:I think there's a big difference between farseers telling autarchs where they need to go to war and the autarchs prosecuting one.

Farseers should only be on the battlefield if there's a fated reason/need of psychic shenanigans to intervene in that particular instance.

Otherwise, the eldar army should function 100% under the autarchs and their command structure.

Farseers aren't military leaders, they're advisors.

Warlocks are overtly militaristic psykers as they are ex aspects, so them showing up on the battlefield is wholly expected.


So IMO they should be creating an Autarch and guardian command structure, build the army around that, and then add farseers and warlocks as optional support.

The army should completely function without a single psyker present.






No thank you.

Eldar are the most psychically powerful race. It's what they do. Let's not be imperial guard with elves. Bring back warlocks as guardian leaders, bring back seer councils, more psykers, not less. The autarch came in 4th edition, and was at least far more interesting than the current ultra bland version, but farseers are iconic. If you don't like them or psykers in general, to be frank eldar aren't the army for you.


Thats fine and I agree but at the same time We shouldint be in a position where castng the same 2 powers is cornserstone of every list you build.

I agree. Eldar psykery looks very pedestrian when you compare it to the likes of GK or even 1ksons.. . The idea of a psychic heavy force was the draw initially but when you have to just casting the same power over and over to make units work, its no fun. Not to mention you would never take a spirit seer of a warlock if you are already inevitably running a farseer because of seer council. Not to mention said warlock has less wounds then a feeble Human Guard psyker dressed in a tattered robe..

Personaly I would love to see the Bonesinger Character type make a return.
Im quite happy with the AOK currently for the most part. But he just needs to be cheaper and also allow for reroll charges at the very least.. And Yeah the FW AOK seems about the kind of £GW will charge for a plastic one if they ever do one.

There is the AOS cauldron of blood plastic AOK. I think thats a decent looking plastic sculpt.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 00:55:29


Post by: Hellebore


Ielthan wrote:
No thank you.

Eldar are the most psychically powerful race. It's what they do. Let's not be imperial guard with elves. Bring back warlocks as guardian leaders, bring back seer councils, more psykers, not less. The autarch came in 4th edition, and was at least far more interesting than the current ultra bland version, but farseers are iconic. If you don't like them or psykers in general, to be frank eldar aren't the army for you.


Being the most powerful psychic race doesn't = only having farseer commanders. That's a ridiculously myopic perspective. there are plenty of iconic units for all armies that are iconic without being NECESSARY for the army to function.

Warlocks are not farseers and this conversation is about how utterly slaved to farseer army commanders the current force is due to the current army paradigm and the farseer's buff abilities.


Insectum7 wrote:@Hellebore: Hmmm . . .

So, for 2nd I definitely ALWAYS saw a Farseer because not having a competing Lvl 4 psyker when the opponent had a level 4 psyker was more or less disastrous. Either way, I don't think we can count on Farseers going away as an Iconic Eldar include.


I' not advocating that, only that the army shouldn't be useless without one so they become the default army leader. People complain about chapter masters/captains or Guilliman showing up to every skirmish and battle and farseers are just as rare but show up more often.

And in 2nd ed you could take a Level 3 warlock, or a level 4 shadowseer without taking a farseer. Farseers were also 0-1 in 2nd ed, making them as rare as avatars....

Insectum7 wrote:
As for the Autarch, I think the general feeling is that the army ought to have UNITS that are capable of doing their job without the outside support of the traditional Farseer (or Autarch).


Yes absolutely. But IMO the problem is that farseers are considered necessary for the army to function which for a super advanced and intelligent army is weird - orks are supposed to collapse when the warboss dies, but the army can run without one and isn't really affected by their death. Hive tyrants are similar. Farseers are more integral to the eldar army than armies whose background describes the death of leaders as destroying their cohesion...

Insectum7 wrote:
The Autarch then has to find yet another personal capability or niche-buff to put forward to have any worth. So, either he be a buff-elf, or he be able to sorta roll the way that 2nd Ed Exarchs used to roll, with lots of custom options with which to tailor their role.

Soo, yeah. . . I dunno what to do with those. I was pretty ok with their original incarnation but GW has trimmed back their options because of no-model-no-rulez. So I guess I'd advocate a much more customizeable unit and a sweet new kit or two (jetbike and non-jetbike Autarch kit with tons of options for each?) Then give him a nice ability to buff uints either this way or that.


People pretty much just take 2 farseers, because farseers are the only way to make the eldar units functional. Or, if GW have let one unit slip through the cracks, spam that unit and over buff them with farseers (see scatbikes, shining spears etc).

There's just no value in having an autarch despite GW specifically describing them as the leaders of eldar armies.



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 01:45:03


Post by: Tygre


I would like to see Warlocks become the Librarian equivalents they used to be in 2nd. That way they could also lead smaller Eldar forces. Maybe less psychic warriors and more warrior psykers.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 01:59:05


Post by: Insectum7


@Hellebore: Ahh, I didn't realize that Farseers were 0-1 in 2nd. I think Captains might have been 0-1 as well, actually.

In summary I think we agree that the Eldar relies too much on the presence of Farseers just like how Marines relied on Chapter Masters(or Primarchs) in every match in 8th. Yes, these are elite armies with elite soldiers and elite chains of command that should be functional without these character-centric setups.

Maybe we can hope for an Eldar Codex that limits 1 Farseer per detatchment in the way that the Marine book limits Captains. It still doesn't seem like enough without some other radical rebalancing so that Eldar units aren't relying on them so much. The Eldar codex will be a sort of GW litmus test for me this edition. Nids too.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 02:06:37


Post by: Adrassil


I really agree with the sentiment Autarchs seem almost superfluous not just as commanders but as warriors and that's sad to me as I've liked the concept of them since their inception in 4th. They feel to me they should be the embodiment of self discipline, having been through at least two warrior paths without falling. I'm not too sure what can be done for that.

I think the idea of a 6+FNP roll for normal on foot Eldar is a good one to represent their agility is great. And if they advance that goes to 5+. I'd also make it 5+ in close combat as it's easier to dodge a swinging sword or fist than a bolter round etc.



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 04:19:31


Post by: Wyldhunt


I mostly agree with Hellebore's sentiments about farseers. The codex as a whole shouldn't be balanced around the assumption that you've cast Doom on something, and I'm okay with overhauling Doom to change that.

Regarding autarchs, my pet idea lately has been to give them something akin to guard orders. In the command phase, each autarch can use one of the following abilities:
* Gain a 1CP (only usable by one autarch per turn)
* A selected unit within line of sight may shoot/charge after falling back this turn.
* A selected unit within line of sight may immediately move 7" after shooting in the shooting phase.

To my mind, that would feel much more "commandery" for the "path of command" guys than an abstract reroll to-hit aura. It would also bring back some of the mobility that eldar have lost over time.

For warlocks, I want...
* The character version that we have now.
* The option to include a warlock as a squad leader for guardians; possibly with a return to the "safe" always-on powers of yester-year.
* A modified version of the warlock conclave. Give each individual model fewer wounds, and give them a boost to powers they cast on themselves. This would let you lower the overall cost of the unit while still letting space elf jedi squads be a thing. And they'd be less likely to get effed over by an unlucky psychic test.

Also,give all psykers "ghost helms," and change ghost helm to just prevent the model from actually dying to their own perils.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 05:42:21


Post by: Argive


Wyldhunt wrote:
I mostly agree with Hellebore's sentiments about farseers. The codex as a whole shouldn't be balanced around the assumption that you've cast Doom on something, and I'm okay with overhauling Doom to change that.

Regarding autarchs, my pet idea lately has been to give them something akin to guard orders. In the command phase, each autarch can use one of the following abilities:
* Gain a 1CP (only usable by one autarch per turn)
* A selected unit within line of sight may shoot/charge after falling back this turn.
* A selected unit within line of sight may immediately move 7" after shooting in the shooting phase.

To my mind, that would feel much more "commandery" for the "path of command" guys than an abstract reroll to-hit aura. It would also bring back some of the mobility that eldar have lost over time.

For warlocks, I want...
* The character version that we have now.
* The option to include a warlock as a squad leader for guardians; possibly with a return to the "safe" always-on powers of yester-year.
* A modified version of the warlock conclave. Give each individual model fewer wounds, and give them a boost to powers they cast on themselves. This would let you lower the overall cost of the unit while still letting space elf jedi squads be a thing. And they'd be less likely to get effed over by an unlucky psychic test.

Also,give all psykers "ghost helms," and change ghost helm to just prevent the model from actually dying to their own perils.


You want to give 2W T3 warlocks fewer wounds? I believe that they are already character with the least wounds on its profile in the game..


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 06:44:51


Post by: Wyldhunt


 Argive wrote:

You want to give 2W T3 warlocks fewer wounds? I believe that they are already character with the least wounds on its profile in the game..

I want to make the models in the conclave unit datasheet 1 wound. Mostly to justify lowering their cost so that they're not 40 points apiece. The fluff justification being that these are less experienced/powerful warlocks than the character version. They're entering into psychic communion to better coordinate their physical and psychic efforts during the battle as a way of making up for their lack of individual efficacy.

I love the concept of a squad of space elf jedi, but their high points cost has been a bit of a design hurdle for them. If you make them durable enough to warrant their pricetag, then they end up being frustrating to play against. And if you don't make them hyper-durable, then they end up being too expensive to see play. They were the latter for most of 8th edition and the former in editions where they could be invisible and/or go around rerolling 4++ and 3++ saves.

The character warlock could probably stand to gain a wound if anything, though I'd settle for just giving him some sort of ghost helm type rule to keep his head from exploding.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 12:59:33


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


Wyldhunt wrote:
 Argive wrote:

You want to give 2W T3 warlocks fewer wounds? I believe that they are already character with the least wounds on its profile in the game..

I want to make the models in the conclave unit datasheet 1 wound. Mostly to justify lowering their cost so that they're not 40 points apiece. The fluff justification being that these are less experienced/powerful warlocks than the character version. They're entering into psychic communion to better coordinate their physical and psychic efforts during the battle as a way of making up for their lack of individual efficacy.

I love the concept of a squad of space elf jedi, but their high points cost has been a bit of a design hurdle for them. If you make them durable enough to warrant their pricetag, then they end up being frustrating to play against. And if you don't make them hyper-durable, then they end up being too expensive to see play. They were the latter for most of 8th edition and the former in editions where they could be invisible and/or go around rerolling 4++ and 3++ saves.

The character warlock could probably stand to gain a wound if anything, though I'd settle for just giving him some sort of ghost helm type rule to keep his head from exploding.


So you'd have T3 1W models without character protection whose main buff is a boosted up Smite (i.e. you have to get them closest to a particular enemy to hurt them?) Sorry man. You've had some good ideas in this thread but that just seems like a way to end up with a multitude of dead Warlocks. And they're already (far) less tough than Marines with (9e) storm shields; why is that considered frustrating to play against when storm shields aren't?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 15:18:01


Post by: bullyboy


I think it's pretty clear that what we're all talking about is a massive overhaul to Eldar for 9th, with some retrospect vision of how Eldar used to play and apply that to what game 9th has become. Whether we see that or just a bandaid overhaul remains to be seen.

I would like to see more defined roles for the characters.
Warlocks for sure should be battle leaders for Guardian squads, where their psychic abilities buff that particular unit. You could give them completely new psychic abilities to choose from (not powers they choose pregame) such as defensive buffs (conceal = -1 to hit, another to count as in light cover), and others that are more offensive that could increase the range of shuriken catapults, or at a higher cast, make them D2. The offensive options would be similar to how SIA works for deathwatch. I think 3 defensive and 3 offensive buffs would suffice and each warlock simply knew all of these powers (would save time pointing out who had what powers etc). So I guess you have a minus to hit, an improve armour save, an additional move, an increase in range, an increase in damage, and of course destructor (change it up so it's a choice over D2 shurikens...which means it would have to be greater than 12" range for starters). At least it would be a way to improve shuriken weapons indirectly. 24" away? Cast to double the range. Enemy up close and personal? Cast D2. Performing actions? Go with defensive buffs.
To remove other janky interactions, weapon platforms have the same toughness and save as the guardians. You're not getting 10 dudes hiding behind the platform chanting "please hit the gun, please hit the gun". It's now just the same defensive rolls as everyone else in the squad.

I like the classic Farseer powers, they've been around forever. However, Doom is too powerful and should simply be changed to what jinx now is (which is also powerful, but wouldn't be as bad if not able to be combined with Doom). An Autarch could then give a reroll 1 to hit and wound aura to show his worth as an battle leader. Reroll all wounds could then simply disappear.

As someone else mentioned, Autarchs are locked into their weapon choices due to model/rules interactions (which we all know is dumb), but they can be buffed in other ways not related to the weapons they have. The downside is that we've really only got one choice (barring failcast Yriel and skyrunner). They are supposed to take pieces of various Aspect shrines with them as they follow the path of the leader, but the model is pretty much stuck with Hawks and Scorpions (I guess you could also say Dragons due to the fusion pistol). Allowing them to pick 2 Exarch powers from the tables would be a nice touch, but those tables need some serious rework anyway. Oh, and if they do rework the Exarch tables, a Phoenix Lord should know every single one of them and be able to choose which one to utilize in a battle round at the start of the command phase.

Anyway, I think many here have great thoughts for Eldar, and they could be such an interesting list to play. However, I will brace for disappointment as usual.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 16:56:08


Post by: PenitentJake


Some good suggestion there Bully.

Question: Is Doom more powerful than Bolter discipline, which everyone in the entire Marine army has without having to pass a psychic test to activate?



Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 17:43:10


Post by: Insectum7


^Yeah I think Doom is fine. It can only be activated once per turn, requires a test, and can only affect one unit. I mean, it's a great power, but not something that needs to be changed.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 18:56:26


Post by: bullyboy


That is true, affecting only one unit (and WC7) makes it fine as is.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 18:59:09


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 bullyboy wrote:
That is true, affecting only one unit (and WC7) makes it fine as is.


It's still very poor game design and hinders the power of the army more than it helps it. And nothing feels worse than losing a game because you failed to cast a spell and you house of cards just crumbled on turn 1. I'd much rather have non gamechanging psychic powers than purely offensive/defensive ones.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 19:01:10


Post by: Insectum7


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
That is true, affecting only one unit (and WC7) makes it fine as is.


It's still very poor game design and hinders the power of the army more than it helps it. And nothing feels worse than losing a game because you failed to cast a spell and you house of cards just crumbled on turn 1. I'd much rather have non gamechanging psychic powers than purely offensive/defensive ones.
Well you don't want to balance the whole army around access to a single Psychic Power.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 19:03:14


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Insectum7 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
That is true, affecting only one unit (and WC7) makes it fine as is.


It's still very poor game design and hinders the power of the army more than it helps it. And nothing feels worse than losing a game because you failed to cast a spell and you house of cards just crumbled on turn 1. I'd much rather have non gamechanging psychic powers than purely offensive/defensive ones.
Well you don't want to balance the whole army around access to a single Psychic Power.


Thats what i mean, but we all know that our units are priced as if they were always receiving the maximum amount of buffs. Eldar and CSM have it worst in the game with how different the powerlevels are between buffed and unbuffed.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 19:25:17


Post by: ZebioLizard2


I would agree to the idea that the Autarchs need the ability to have their own command abilities. It is what they're designed for in general that shouldn't be tied specifically to command points.

What I also believe they should have is access to all Exarch abilities as well that they could select (if GW ever gives them back the ability to build an Autarch how they're supposed to be anyways). Being able to choose X amount of Exarch abilities from Y amount of aspects to represent their walk down the paths but not falling to any to make them the ultimate customizable leader.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 20:56:27


Post by: Eldarsif


Doom should be a +1 to wound. It then becomes a nice bonus and not a reroll system.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 20:58:13


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Eldarsif wrote:
Doom should be a +1 to wound. It then becomes a nice bonus and not a reroll system.


feth no, the wounding table is already crap, anything that plays on it will simply be broken. I say this as a sad CSM player that needs his VotL to function


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 21:30:35


Post by: Eldarsif


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Doom should be a +1 to wound. It then becomes a nice bonus and not a reroll system.


feth no, the wounding table is already crap, anything that plays on it will simply be broken. I say this as a sad CSM player that needs his VotL to function


Could then be a -1 or -2 to enemy unit saves. Either those two or just remove Doom from the pool. Personally I am betting on +1 to wound as GW appears to be attempting to reduce somewhat the dice rolls in the game(with varying success).


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 21:41:03


Post by: Karol


Why not make doom +1D ? It could even come with AP debuff too.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 22:16:59


Post by: Ielthan


Tbh I'm expecting them to take the easier, low effort routes, e.g. just buffing all the heavy weapon profiles (as is necessary!), Shuriken cannon d2, maybe starcannons upto 3 shots like the old days, scatter lasers to get back some form of laser lock. I'd like Bright Lances to get back their lance rule in the form that no enemy toughness can be greater than 8.

Doom is fine, Eldar need the lower variance allowed by rerolls, +1 modifiers just make them more swingy, and less reliable. I'd like to see fortune return to what it used to be, found it a bit crap in 9th.

The main problem with Eldar psykers in 9th is only being able to cast each power once tbh. I get it, but they haven't really gotten anything to make up for it.





Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/11 22:31:32


Post by: Argive


 Insectum7 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
That is true, affecting only one unit (and WC7) makes it fine as is.


It's still very poor game design and hinders the power of the army more than it helps it. And nothing feels worse than losing a game because you failed to cast a spell and you house of cards just crumbled on turn 1. I'd much rather have non gamechanging psychic powers than purely offensive/defensive ones.
Well you don't want to balance the whole army around access to a single Psychic Power.


A lot of this..


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 03:36:08


Post by: Apple fox


 Argive wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
That is true, affecting only one unit (and WC7) makes it fine as is.


It's still very poor game design and hinders the power of the army more than it helps it. And nothing feels worse than losing a game because you failed to cast a spell and you house of cards just crumbled on turn 1. I'd much rather have non gamechanging psychic powers than purely offensive/defensive ones.
Well you don't want to balance the whole army around access to a single Psychic Power.


A lot of this..


Probably the whole psychic phase is a bit of a relic, with random powers being rather daft. And would probably serve better as special ability’s on unique units.

But an army being reliant on there leaders is not bad design, it’s just how GW gets there that really is the issue.

Farseers and warlocks should probably be more similar than current, with one being more backline and the other for more frontline.

Guardians need a revamp, they are the backbone of the Eldar warhost Support to all the different forces within it and are well trained and equiped. They need a HQ unit and a veteran unit as well.

For the Eldar ability at forsight, you could give many units a start of game choice. Aspect units getting the choice between more attacks or more strength on weapons. It does not have to make them amazing outside there given field, but gives them options.

I actually fear a exodite release, really cool but it just comes off as another Eldar faction to neglect.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 06:40:23


Post by: Iracundus


Actually my idea for one alterantive way to show Eldar foresight ability would be to do something similar to the SOB and their Miracle dice. Except rather than just boosting one's own, maybe have it also include bad luck for the enemy by allowing the substitution of bad dice into the enemy's roll.

"That heavy weapon that would kill my character if it hit and it hits on a 2+? I guess I'll substitute in a 1 then."

So fighting the Eldar would mean the enemy could have freak "bad luck" like weapons jamming, targeting systems glitching, fumbled blows etc.. to represent the Eldar having manipulated fate in their favor.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 06:57:07


Post by: Marin


 Hellebore wrote:
IMO one of the reasons they've never had a proper refresh is their position in 40k.

Alongside the imperium and arguably the tau (the tau have a more antagonistic relationship with the imperium because they offer membership to humans and undermine the imperium while the eldar are happy doing their own thing), they're a 'good guy' faction. That is, they're far more likely to appear on the side of the imperium than any other army.

So what this means in terms of releases is that they are unlikely to appear as an antagonist force in a starter box with marines.

Xenos armies seem to get their rebuilds when they hitch a ride to the marine wagon, which generally only happens in that antagonist spot.

As they have never in 9 editions put a non imperial (and non space marine) faction into the starter as the protagonist good guy, eldar are in perhaps the worst position than any other army in the game.

They won't ever have the spotlight and they won't ever get the shared spotlight of the antagonist of the imperium.

So GW drip feeds them between other things, releases a few things with a codex, or will have to deliberately rebuild them in a massive release independently of any other factor.

I hope we get a massive update, but they will need to deliberately engineer the space to do that, rather than just do it in association with other factions.


Wake the death was aeldar vs marines box, but the bad guys marines won in the end of the mission.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 07:12:29


Post by: Argive


Iracundus wrote:
Actually my idea for one alterantive way to show Eldar foresight ability would be to do something similar to the SOB and their Miracle dice. Except rather than just boosting one's own, maybe have it also include bad luck for the enemy by allowing the substitution of bad dice into the enemy's roll.

"That heavy weapon that would kill my character if it hit and it hits on a 2+? I guess I'll substitute in a 1 then."

So fighting the Eldar would mean the enemy could have freak "bad luck" like weapons jamming, targeting systems glitching, fumbled blows etc.. to represent the Eldar having manipulated fate in their favor.


The salt would never end flowing and we'd run out fresh water to drink globally resulting in a societal collapse and made max...


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 08:48:17


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


With regard to Farseers and Warlocks.

They are of course central to Eldar armies. And its certainly true their tricks really haven’t changed over the year. Doom, Fortune, Eldritch Storm et al have been staples since pretty much forever (though I will double check my RT collection to see if I can pin down a definitive beginning).

And I very much agree that when we look at other forces in the game, they can pull the traditional tricks. But, feeding into the core theme of this thread? They got other tricks too.

Perhaps we need to see a diversification of Farseers and Warlocks. If we look at Necron Crypteks, we might find some inspiration, even if a direct copy isn’t exactly desirable.

Each of the four current flavours of Cryptek do different things for your force, but they all broadly remain Unit Support, as is also the traditional role of the Warlock, whether as a unit champion upgrade, or a roving independent model.

If so, what specialisations/sub classes would you suggest?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 08:52:03


Post by: Iracundus


 Argive wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Actually my idea for one alterantive way to show Eldar foresight ability would be to do something similar to the SOB and their Miracle dice. Except rather than just boosting one's own, maybe have it also include bad luck for the enemy by allowing the substitution of bad dice into the enemy's roll.

"That heavy weapon that would kill my character if it hit and it hits on a 2+? I guess I'll substitute in a 1 then."

So fighting the Eldar would mean the enemy could have freak "bad luck" like weapons jamming, targeting systems glitching, fumbled blows etc.. to represent the Eldar having manipulated fate in their favor.


The salt would never end flowing and we'd run out fresh water to drink globally resulting in a societal collapse and made max...


Mathematically it wouldn't be that different really than the SOB Ebon Chalice now being able to for example get an automatic success on their first 6++. That's equivalent to forcing a miss of a 2+ to-hit in terms of negating harm to a target.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 09:04:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Ircandus’ “dill weed dice” idea is great.

It’s very, very Eldar, precisely because it’s frustrating for your opponent. Especially if it’s perhaps extended to enemy Damage rolls, or “one per phase of rolling”

Imagine this....your opponent isn’t very good at the game so has chosen a unit of 4 Devastators with 4 Lascannons. Or indeed Chaos Havocs with the same. He declares their target as say...a Wraithknight, one that’s bearing down and about to kick snot out of something he doesn’t want the snot kicked out of.

The Eldar player is having none of this, and has three dill weed Dice to play with. Each of this can change a roll to a 1 or a 6 (because 6 can mean failed morale).

The Lascannons open up. Three natural hits, and one natural miss. dill weed Dice is used, reducing it to two hits.

Bah, say the Lascannons. But at least both wound. Yay! Oh, wait. dill weed Dice turn that to a single Wounding hit.

Wraithknight fails its save. The final dill weed Dice ensures that’s only for 1 point of damage.

Now, if the DD are rendered as a finite resource (either a set amount at the start of the game, or so many a turn, and a Farseer lets you carry some over turn to turn), the skill comes from appropriate usage. Certainly they shouldn’t be abundant as such, at least not without specifically structuring your army in that way.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 09:25:18


Post by: Flinty


Xwing used that kind of mechanic where it allowed you to use skills.to set dice to specific values, but which could then be re-rolled if such ability was available. It would be a means by which Eldar could deliberately drain opponents CPs by forcing them to re-roll stuff that they had already succeeded at, or at least blunt the utility of re-roll auras.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 09:30:35


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 09:34:06


Post by: InVerno


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.


Teclis in aos has a spell that double the cost of Command abilities


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 09:35:14


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.


AL has if i memeber correctly.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 09:49:46


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Y’know, I dunno about anyone else, but I’m really enjoying this thread.

What I might do at the weekend is go back through it, and compile the various suggestions for perks and tweaks into a single post (not a new thread though).

Nothing too in-depth or prescriptive. Reckon that could aid further discussion.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 11:00:09


Post by: Cronch


That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 11:09:49


Post by: Iracundus


Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.


It's like a Blue counter and control deck in Magic the Gathering, which fits very much with an Eldar playstyle. Again how is this that different from Doom which is basically directly cursing enemy units as well? Also it could actually improve effective Eldar survivability in a way that the current Fortune power does not, since many units might not have an effective save to re-roll after AP is taken into consideration.

Also the SOB have a straight boosting mechanic already. The idea was to differentiate from that. I imagined that these dice would be generated either pre-game (Farseer does a reading of runes before the battle), through CP, and/or successful use of a specific dice generating psychic power, and that like the SOB Miracle dice they would be rolled so you could get dice with a range of values, some of which may not be useful.

In any case, a counter would be just to throw so many dice that a few misses don't change the outcome. It's the same tradeoff between a few high powered shots vs many weaker shots.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 11:16:43


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.


All depends on the abundance of the resource.

If they can maybe affect half a dozen things over the course of the game, it’s possibly underpowered (because we roll a lot of dice).

A dozen? That’s useful, definitely, but had to be used well. Could make for a single, very poor turn for your opponent.

Two dozen? Probably overly restrictive on your opponent, as it could have a significant impact on multiple turns.

So the exact implementation is difficult to judge right now, but as a mechanic it’s spot on for Craftworld Eldar. A balancing factor could be to declare their usage before the dice are rolled, better representing this is prediction rather than direct interference?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 11:18:25


Post by: Iracundus


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.


All depends on the abundance of the resource.

If they can maybe affect half a dozen things over the course of the game, it’s possibly underpowered (because we roll a lot of dice).

A dozen? That’s useful, definitely, but had to be used well. Could make for a single, very poor turn for your opponent.

Two dozen? Probably overly restrictive on your opponent, as it could have a significant impact on multiple turns.

So the exact implementation is difficult to judge right now, but as a mechanic it’s spot on for Craftworld Eldar. A balancing factor could be to declare their usage before the dice are rolled, better representing this is prediction rather than direct interference?


The SOB Miracle dice are declared before the dice are rolled so yes this could be similar in that regard. The idea would be to a few strategic nudges of fate at critical moments rather than just total shut down of everything an opponent does.

I don't think there have been many people saying the Miracle dice and Acts of Faith are unfun or overpowered, even though as the example I gave, an Ebon Chalce SOB force (which gets an automatic "6" Miracle die at the beginning of the game) could therefore know with certainty that one to-hit or to-wound would be an automatic "natural" success with the potential to trigger exploding 6's.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 11:19:53


Post by: Sarigar


 InVerno wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?

Because that could be rather fun.


Teclis in aos has a spell that double the cost of Command abilities


Sounds like you may already know of something that is about to be a thing in 40K.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 11:39:10


Post by: jaredb


There is the Callidus Assassin, which makes strats cost more.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 11:53:16


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On the dice swapping, maybe allow a once per turn ‘choose after they’ve rolled’ option if you’ve got a Farseer in play?


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 12:03:17


Post by: Ielthan


Cronch wrote:That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.


Yup, seems more of tzeentch thing than eldar too.


Iracundus wrote:
Cronch wrote:
That's..incredibly unfun. Like, imagine rolling well, and someone tells you "lol nope, it missed now". Sure, it's not actually that big of a deal, but it feels like it at the moment. I'm of the opinion that buffing your own side feels better to both players than having extra "F-U" dice-nerfing mechanic.


It's like a Blue counter and control deck in Magic the Gathering, which fits very much with an Eldar playstyle. Again how is this that different from Doom which is basically directly cursing enemy units as well? Also it could actually improve effective Eldar survivability in a way that the current Fortune power does not, since many units might not have an effective save to re-roll after AP is taken into consideration.

Also the SOB have a straight boosting mechanic already. The idea was to differentiate from that. I imagined that these dice would be generated either pre-game (Farseer does a reading of runes before the battle), through CP, and/or successful use of a specific dice generating psychic power, and that like the SOB Miracle dice they would be rolled so you could get dice with a range of values, some of which may not be useful.

In any case, a counter would be just to throw so many dice that a few misses don't change the outcome. It's the same tradeoff between a few high powered shots vs many weaker shots.



The mechanics of 9th ed 40k are already far too much of a card game that happens to involve miniatures. Not playing a wargame using battlefield tactics, but trying to be better at using game mechanics. Let's not double down on that.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 12:50:40


Post by: Karol


Iracundus wrote:


It's like a Blue counter and control deck in Magic the Gathering, which fits very much with an Eldar playstyle. Again how is this that different from Doom which is basically directly cursing enemy units as well? Also it could actually improve effective Eldar survivability in a way that the current Fortune power does not, since many units might not have an effective save to re-roll after AP is taken into consideration.



Becuase doom or SoB miracle dice buff your stuff. And because a lot of armies require a one turn alfa strike to cripple the other army, eldar being able to turn it off would mean those armies would just stop working.

Also blue is most hated colour in MtG, and that is without faction loyality. For w40k it would be even worse, there is a big difference between being very good and there for tought to play and making it impossible for people to play their army. We already had that in 8th, when eldar armies were running around with -2 to hit and were mostly made out of flyers. No one, aside for eldar players, liked that.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 14:17:20


Post by: Mezmorki


More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.

Through all of this, Eldar in the lore are praised for their speed, flexibility, and foresight. But really, only the SPEED element actually translates into the rules. Eldar units are decidedly non-flexible, and their foresight isn't really represented at all.

I'm curious about an approach where things like exarch powers provide unit buffs that you invoke at the start of each turn (or maybe just declared at the start of battle after you see your opponnent's list) that allows you to adjust the unit's capabilities on the fly. Adding Warlocks back as guardian squad leaders with non-psyker psychic-like powers to variable buff/support their units in response to the situation at hand would seem to go nicely with the spirit of the list.

I guess the issue I see is that every eldar unit feels like a one-trick pony, in a game where multi-role and durable units are increasingly important. If Eldar can be reconceptualization a way that let's them keep their sting and relative fragility, but gives them more flexibility for responding to your opponents list or the situation at hand, it could be a nice improvement.






Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 14:39:48


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Karol wrote:
. We already had that in 8th, when eldar armies were running around with -2 to hit and were mostly made out of flyers. No one, aside for eldar players, liked that.


eldar players also disliked that....


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 14:58:02


Post by: Imateria


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With regard to Farseers and Warlocks.

They are of course central to Eldar armies. And its certainly true their tricks really haven’t changed over the year. Doom, Fortune, Eldritch Storm et al have been staples since pretty much forever (though I will double check my RT collection to see if I can pin down a definitive beginning).

And I very much agree that when we look at other forces in the game, they can pull the traditional tricks. But, feeding into the core theme of this thread? They got other tricks too.

Perhaps we need to see a diversification of Farseers and Warlocks. If we look at Necron Crypteks, we might find some inspiration, even if a direct copy isn’t exactly desirable.

Each of the four current flavours of Cryptek do different things for your force, but they all broadly remain Unit Support, as is also the traditional role of the Warlock, whether as a unit champion upgrade, or a roving independent model.

If so, what specialisations/sub classes would you suggest?

I don't think we really need a Cryptek style of diversification, Craftworlds already have Farseers, Warlocks and Spiritseers, GW just needs to lean more heavily into their roles. Make Spiritseers abilities more specific to buffing Wraith Constructs, Warlocks going back to Guardian Squad leaders can have their abilities aimed at buffing the basic line infantry with Farseers giving more general army wide buffs which could tie in nicely with the the Fate dice system thats been discussed over the last page. Heck, it makes for a great excuse to get the Bonesinger back in plastic, have them specialised in support vehicles. You could even keep the lone HQ version of the Warlock as a more experience version of the squad leader with a greater emphasis on combat and supporting Aspect Warriors.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 15:40:58


Post by: Iracundus


Karol wrote:

Becuase doom or SoB miracle dice buff your stuff.


Doom is equivalent to a Toughness debuff. A Miracle die making an automatic 6++ save successful is mathematically equivalent to a die converting a to-hit roll to a failed 1. Doom and Miracle dice are the same as debuffs. Doom is described as cursing the enemy with bad luck, and other Eldar powers have been shown as basically debuffing various enemy things like saves or Strength.

Sounds more like you don't like Blue in Magic but it is as valid a playstyle as any others. The whole point of the Eldar is that they don't fight "fair" at least as the Imperium sees it.

"Stay still so I can hit you". Of course the Eldar aren't going to do that. One side's "fair" usually means "Cater to my strengths and don't exploit my weaknesses"

If it means armies have to do more than just being a one turn alpha strike to cripple the other side, then I see switching that off as a good thing.

In any case what people have been suggesting here would still require some thought before use, just as Miracle dice do. Squander Miracle dice on the wrong rolls and you can still fail. And weight of numbers or rather weight of dice rolls would still offset any roll substitution. Just don't put all your eggs in one basket with single rolls.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 15:44:29


Post by: Tyel


 Mezmorki wrote:
More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.


I think you might be making things more complicated than they need to be.

For example - digging up thread from 9 months ago - you look at fire dragons. Its a unit, it shoots melta.

Is this bad? Well... Eradicators/MM Attack Bikes and Retributors say no. Its actually quite decent.

The problem is you are paying 23 points for 1 12" melta shot. Now if say they had 18" range - which GW could change with the type of a keyboard - then they'd be quite a bit better. Good enough? No - but moving in the right direction. I'm not sure you want to re-invent the wheel on that.

In the same way I don't think Banshee's are specialised - they are just *bad*. They've *finally* got S4 with the power swords - but with just 2 1 damage attacks... they still don't really do anything to anything.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 15:46:09


Post by: Iracundus


Tyel wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:
More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.


I think you might be making things more complicated than they need to be.

For example - digging up thread from 9 months ago - you look at fire dragons. Its a unit, it shoots melta.

Is this bad? Well... Eradicators/MM Attack Bikes and Retributors say no. Its actually quite decent.

The problem is you are paying 23 points for 1 12" melta shot. Now if say they had 18" range - which GW could change with the type of a keyboard - then they'd be quite a bit better. Good enough? No - but moving in the right direction. I'm not sure you want to re-invent the wheel on that.

In the same way I don't think Banshee's are specialised - they are just *bad*. They've *finally* got S4 with the power swords - but with just 2 1 damage attacks... they still don't really do anything to anything.


The Banshees getting a +1S is similar to the Dire Avengers going from 12" to 18" catapults. It is a tacit admission that the old idea from a previous edition no longer works.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 16:00:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Banshees now hitting at S4 also call into question the point of Striking Scorpions, who lack the high AP.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 16:33:27


Post by: A.T.


Iracundus wrote:
A Miracle die making an automatic 6++ save successful is mathematically equivalent to a die converting a to-hit roll to a failed 1
Not entirely accurate as rolling a 1 can cause a gun to blow up in your face, rolling a 6 can cause multiple hits, and not everything allows a save.

If none of that was the case though there is still the percieved difference between affecting your own rolls and affecting your opponents, even if the outcome is literally the same. Miracle dice don't change anything that might not have otherwise happend on your roll, and the faction itself it written in such a way that they can't double-dip it with bonus effects on their 6s (because Eldar stole their divine guidance rules back in 6th edition and still haven't given them back :p).

Though, without reading back through all of the thread, this still seems like triple-buffing with an extra mechanic to add on top of the psychic powers and characters.


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Does anyone have an existing mechanic which ups the cost of Stratagems?
Yes. Callidus assassin, first round only, on a 4+ adds 1CP to a stratagem cost (excluding all pre-battle stratagems).


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 17:02:10


Post by: SaganGree


So... in the case of "Fate" dice causing a hit roll to be a "1"... wouldn't the opponent be able to spend a CP to re-roll that die roll like any other failed check? Unless of course there is a stipulation that they would not be able to re-roll that die... (Personally, I like Fate for the ability name, as we all know that Fate is a b...)


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 17:03:35


Post by: Rihgu


I think that is the idea, yea. At least as presented.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 17:38:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


SaganGree wrote:
So... in the case of "Fate" dice causing a hit roll to be a "1"... wouldn't the opponent be able to spend a CP to re-roll that die roll like any other failed check? Unless of course there is a stipulation that they would not be able to re-roll that die... (Personally, I like Fate for the ability name, as we all know that Fate is a b...)


I wouldn’t be against that. After all, it’s still draining a CP, and in a specific phase.

Would come down to how the rule is set out, as one could count the Fate Point thing as a re-roll, albeit with a pre-determined result.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 19:17:44


Post by: Mezmorki


Tyel wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:
More thoughts bubbling up....

Conceptually, the Eldar unit design has been predicated on providing hard counters - i.e. Fire Dragons have guns that melt heavy armor, Banshee's cut through elite troops in melee, etc.


I think you might be making things more complicated than they need to be.

For example - digging up thread from 9 months ago - you look at fire dragons. Its a unit, it shoots melta.

Is this bad? Well... Eradicators/MM Attack Bikes and Retributors say no. Its actually quite decent.

The problem is you are paying 23 points for 1 12" melta shot. Now if say they had 18" range - which GW could change with the type of a keyboard - then they'd be quite a bit better. Good enough? No - but moving in the right direction. I'm not sure you want to re-invent the wheel on that.

In the same way I don't think Banshee's are specialised - they are just *bad*. They've *finally* got S4 with the power swords - but with just 2 1 damage attacks... they still don't really do anything to anything.


Well, to elaborate on my proposal and to use the fire dragon example....

What if 12" range and the S8 melta shot is the baseline, and then an exarch power can be called out each to do ONE of the following for the unit for this turn (determined before shooting)
* Add +1 damage to the damage rolls
* Loses melta ability but fires at double range
* Melta weapons become assault 2, but only deals 1 damage max
* +2 strength
* Fire shield - Unit gains 5+ invulnerable save until next turn
* something else?

That is what I mean by taking the core idea - dudes armed with melta guns, and give them flexibility in the game to adapt to different situations. If you bring fire dragons and your opponent has no big vehicles or MC's, then you can adapt the attack profile/capabilities to better deal with what you're facing.








Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 19:22:10


Post by: Insectum7


 Mezmorki wrote:

Through all of this, Eldar in the lore are praised for their speed, flexibility, and foresight. But really, only the SPEED element actually translates into the rules. Eldar units are decidedly non-flexible, and their foresight isn't really represented at all.

This is one of my beefs with the current setup. For the 7th to 8th transition, Eldar lost Battle Focus, where they could get a bunch of extra movement, and traded it for an extra 1" on their movement stat. This was in addition to losing the Initiative stat. That was a rough deal for them on the "speed" front.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 19:22:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


To be honest.....

Eldar tech is meant to be superior to Imperial.

Aspect Warriors are meant to have the Dogs Danglies of Eldar war tech.

Fire Dragons. As is (maybe longer range?). But Damage is D3+3 at maximum range. And flat 6 at half range.

Eff. Me. That. Is. Scary.

Downside? They’re still squishy Eldar. If you didn’t deal with them before they turned your tank to vapour, that’s entirely on you.

Make Eldar Scary Again!

Remember - I’m still not an Eldar player.


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 19:56:42


Post by: Insectum7


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To be honest.....

Eldar tech is meant to be superior to Imperial.

Aspect Warriors are meant to have the Dogs Danglies of Eldar war tech.

Fire Dragons. As is (maybe longer range?). But Damage is D3+3 at maximum range. And flat 6 at half range.

Eff. Me. That. Is. Scary.

Downside? They’re still squishy Eldar. If you didn’t deal with them before they turned your tank to vapour, that’s entirely on you.

Make Eldar Scary Again!

Remember - I’m still not an Eldar player.
Eldar Tech has often been a sort of side-grade to Imperial tech. In 2nd they used the same Lascannons and Missile Launchers, they just had some of their own advanced lasers too, which took the place of big physical ordinance that the Imperium had. The Plasma Cannon is roughly equivalent to the Starcannon these days. . . . Unfortunately now the Imperium has Melta Rifles. . . sigh. I think extending the range of Fusion Guns would be reasonable, at least. the Warp Spiders Death Spinners need some help too. Shuriken Catapults, etc.

I would think the the Striking Scorpions ought to be rolling with more, stronger attacks for anti horde business, while the Banshees should probably be rocking 2D on their swords.

(also not an Eldar player.)


Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  @ 2021/03/12 20:54:52


Post by: SaganGree


Yeah, given the fact that SM grunts can have more attacks than an Eldar Character and hit harder.... and wound better... and are harder to wound... hmm...