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Dune @ 2021/03/19 23:21:38


Post by: Rob Lee


So, Dune...

Not the upcoming film but the original 1984 David Lynch film.

I'm sure back in the mists of time I've watched it before, but recently I thought, as I don't recall doing so, I'd watch it again. I don't read books much these days, so I try to watch the best film adaptations of books instead, however I'm aware that Dune so far doesn't really have a "best film adaptation", they'll all kind of the best of a bad bunch.

I've tried watching the extended version that floats around and a version with some weird animated opening, but hadn't been able to get past the homo-erotic sadomasochistic scenes featuring Baron Harkonen and only got as far as the Harkonen vs Atreides battle on Arrakis before I gave up and switched off.

Tonight I watched the original theatrical cut and finally managed to get all the way through the film.

And...

...I don't "get it".


Here's what I do "get" -


Spoiler:

There is an imperium, that spans a galaxy. A source of it's income is something called spice. Spice is only found on 1 planet, called Arrakis, which is controlled by the imperium.

You've got 3 feudal type groups running the imperium - house Atreides, house Harkonen and whatever the emperors house is called. Then you have the navigators guild, a bunch of weird slug creatures that can fold space (i.e. warp travel), and the Gesserit, a women only club of "witches". The emperor plots to ruin/destroy house Atreides because he believes they want to/will overthrow him. The Gesserit are waiting for and trying to engineer, usually by way of selective breeding, a "super being". And the navigators guild want Paul Atreides dead (presumably because they believe that he will become that "super being").

Arrakis's native people's are the Fremen. They're plotting to take the planet from the imperium at some point and have been stockpiling water (akin to gold as Arrakis is a desert planet).

Paul Atreides, after house Atreides is destroyed in an attack by house Harkonen, joins the Fremen, kind of becomes their leader, drinks some magic water and becomes the "super being" the Gesserit's have been waiting for.

Paul and the Fremen then battle it out with the emperor and Harkonen's, win, and Paul Atreides then creates a storm that brings rain, and it appears seas, to the desert world of Arrakis.


What I don't "get" -

What actually happens to Arrakis and the spice and what impact does whatever happens to it have on the imperium? What happens to the emperor, Paul, his sister, and the Fremen? What was the point of it all?


Thank you in advance for any enlightenment.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 00:01:10


Post by: Overread


Ok so the film basically doesn't do a good job because it ran out of time to fit everything in so a fair few things get a bit squashed.

The BEST answer is to go read the books because to answer all your questions requires a lot of spoilers


Spoiler:

The Empire is basically a feudal system. You have the Emperor on top, but underneath are various feudal houses which each have their own powerbase like lords in their castles (only they are rules of planets). The Emperor has his own powerbase and "house" as well, his is simply the most powerful that rose to the top and keeps the others in line.

We only interact with 2 of the houses in the film, but there are others in the stories and background.


Alongside you've got the Navigators who basically control all intergalactic space trade because they can use Spice which allows them to fold space and see the future which helps them with their space folding skills. The Spice Must Flow basically means that the Navigators don't care who rules the Empire, nor the powers of the various houses so long as the spice comes from Arrakis and does not stop - for if it stops then space travel stops and the Empire falls.

The House that controls Arrakis basically gains supreme power and income from the Spice trade and harvesting; however its only allowed for a limited time per house. This way the Emperor stops one house (including his own) from dominating the spice trade and thus inciting uprisings from others (Again the Navigators don't care and will transport armies between worlds for the houses that pay). There are even rules of war just like we have today - eg no use of nuclear weapons and such.


Then you've got the Gesserit who are basically a religious order.


The aftermath is that Paul basically joins the Fremen in a huge uprising on the planet, shifting the base of power from the Emperor to Arrakis and to the Fremen and remains of House Atreities. The point of it all for the Fremen is to retake their world; the point for Paul is revenge on the Harkonans and Emperor who all plotted against him and his family.

The book goes to about a similar end point and further stories carry on the tale for others and it should be noted that Paul isn't so much a super-being as a person who can see into the future from exposure to the Spice and the afterbirth water from a worm (that's the magical water - since regular water is poison to the worms)



Dune @ 2021/03/20 01:00:00


Post by: Voss


 Rob Lee wrote:
So, Dune...

Not the upcoming film but the original 1984 David Lynch film.

I'm sure back in the mists of time I've watched it before, but recently I thought, as I don't recall doing so, I'd watch it again. I don't read books much these days, so I try to watch the best film adaptations of books instead, however I'm aware that Dune so far doesn't really have a "best film adaptation", they'll all kind of the best of a bad bunch.

I've tried watching the extended version that floats around and a version with some weird animated opening, but hadn't been able to get past the homo-erotic sadomasochistic scenes featuring Baron Harkonen and only got as far as the Harkonen vs Atreides battle on Arrakis before I gave up and switched off.

Tonight I watched the original theatrical cut and finally managed to get all the way through the film.

And...

...I don't "get it".


Here's what I do "get" -


Spoiler:

There is an imperium, that spans a galaxy. A source of it's income is something called spice. Spice is only found on 1 planet, called Arrakis, which is controlled by the imperium.

You've got 3 feudal type groups running the imperium - house Atreides, house Harkonen and whatever the emperors house is called. Then you have the navigators guild, a bunch of weird slug creatures that can fold space (i.e. warp travel), and the Gesserit, a women only club of "witches". The emperor plots to ruin/destroy house Atreides because he believes they want to/will overthrow him. The Gesserit are waiting for and trying to engineer, usually by way of selective breeding, a "super being". And the navigators guild want Paul Atreides dead (presumably because they believe that he will become that "super being").

Arrakis's native people's are the Fremen. They're plotting to take the planet from the imperium at some point and have been stockpiling water (akin to gold as Arrakis is a desert planet).

Paul Atreides, after house Atreides is destroyed in an attack by house Harkonen, joins the Fremen, kind of becomes their leader, drinks some magic water and becomes the "super being" the Gesserit's have been waiting for.

Paul and the Fremen then battle it out with the emperor and Harkonen's, win, and Paul Atreides then creates a storm that brings rain, and it appears seas, to the desert world of Arrakis.


What I don't "get" -

What actually happens to Arrakis and the spice and what impact does whatever happens to it have on the imperium? What happens to the emperor, Paul, his sister, and the Fremen? What was the point of it all?


Thank you in advance for any enlightenment.


Arrakis becomes the center of government for the Empire. Spice remains the substance that keeps the whole thing moving (literally, their space travel method depends on it)
The old emperor is forcibly retired, and Paul becomes Emperor.
Paul's sister becomes his right hand
The Fremen become Paul's legions, and stomp the rest of the Empire into submission.

The point (of the Lynch film) is largely revenge, survival, and shenanigans with nobility. The messianic and philosophical elements (the metaphysical and moral implications of prescience, just government, personal and species survival, human mind and will over machine assistance, etc) from the books are largely dropped from the film... in favor sonic blasters and making it rain, because apparently miracles need to be melodramatic to count.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 02:23:38


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


The book makes it more clear that Paul is less a messianic savior than a charismatic tyrant.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 02:47:51


Post by: Voss


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The book makes it more clear that Paul is less a messianic savior than a charismatic tyrant.


I wouldn't say that. Paul really ends up trapping himself as neither.

But Dune plays up the messianic role for his rise among the Fremen. Messiah ironically follows his failure to escape the consequences of that mantle- the role matters a lot more than the man.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 08:20:08


Post by: Chillreaper


One thing to note in the David Lynch film is that the rain at the end doesn't happen in the book.

It was added to the film to give it the sense of a happy ending - because obviously, the whole problem with the universe was that Arrakis and by extension, the Fremen was suffering and oppressed because of the lack of water.

Didn't happen like that in the books. That sort of thing would have monumental consequences.

Paul Atreides in the film got reduced to a saviour type character for familiarity in the books it's not as simple (or as happy) as that.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 09:46:26


Post by: Jadenim


Dune is effectively a deconstruction of the hero’s journey (which the film basically ignores); Paul doesn’t actually want to rule the Empire, but he has no choice; initially he is fighting purely for survival, later he adds a good dash of revenge into that and also trying to free his adopted people. There are multiple points, even at the climax, where he tries to find a way out that doesn’t require him to wage war against the whole of humanity, but even as a near omniscient superhuman, he can’t override the weight of history and societal pressures. Basically humans will be humans, and there’s nothing that anyone can do to stop it and precious little you can do to even direct it.

Think Monty Python’s Life of Brian, but done seriously.

So, to more directly answer your questions; Paul now has direct control of spice production, which is the basis of the entirety of human civilisation (not an oil metaphor at all, no siree!) His power is used to completely stifle any dissent from other factions and unleashes the Fremen on a holy war across the galaxy to enforce compliance and annihilate any opposition. He ends up moping on a throne in a giant palace on Arrakis, unable to really control any of this. Oh and he’s married to the former Emperor’s daughter, so it’s all technically legitimate and the Emperor just “retired” back to his home planet (alive, but effectively under house arrest).

As for his sister, that’d be spoilers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fun, huh?!


Dune @ 2021/03/20 12:10:00


Post by: Aash


It’s been a while since I’ve read Dune, and this is from memory, so if I’ve made any mistakes please correct me!

Spice is highly addictive and withdrawal is fatal, and at the time of the first book and movie, it is unable to be artificially produced so as Arrakis is the only source Arrakis is very important. Spice is used for many purposes, and is known for its mind expanding abilities and most of the nobles in Dune are spice addicts, so controlling it is very powerful.

Spice is also what allows navigators to fold space so is vital in order to maintain a galaxy spanning empire. The fact that spice is needed for this is a closely guarded secret of the navigator guild, which Paul discovers.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 16:44:51


Post by: Turnip Jedi


The film is a glorious mess of 80s nonsense trying to overthink it will not end well

I'm still not sure why the change to Navigators, I'm fairly sure like 40k the ships engines do the space folding/warp jump and the navigators are needed to make sure you end up in the right place, and the Spice ups their mental ability to function as computers, as like 40k AI is forbidden, but again 80s


Dune @ 2021/03/20 18:42:10


Post by: Rob Lee


Thanks guys. That makes a little more sense now. I guess that film is one of those you just have to write off as 2 hours ish of your life that you'll never get back. A shame because the aesthetic of the film is so good.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 22:05:41


Post by: Overread


 Rob Lee wrote:
Thanks guys. That makes a little more sense now. I guess that film is one of those you just have to write off as 2 hours ish of your life that you'll never get back. A shame because the aesthetic of the film is so good.


I view it more as a companion to the books than as a film to write off. Visually it captures the feel of the book fantastically well. It makes some changes and it rushes a good latter half of its own story (basically a huge amount of story after Paul escapes from the attack and joins the Fremen is missing and what is there is glossed over very fast) but in part that's because its trying to cover way too much book in one film. It's a film that makes more sense if you're already a fan of the book.


Dune @ 2021/03/20 23:14:21


Post by: AegisGrimm


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
The film is a glorious mess of 80s nonsense trying to overthink it will not end well

I'm still not sure why the change to Navigators, I'm fairly sure like 40k the ships engines do the space folding/warp jump and the navigators are needed to make sure you end up in the right place, and the Spice ups their mental ability to function as computers, as like 40k AI is forbidden, but again 80s


That is correct. As far as I can remember from the Butlerian Jihad books (they are a trilogy about the machine crusade, and describe the "invention" of the Navigators and Space folding travel.) Space-folding was invented first, but with no scientific way to see/measure planetary movement in real-time or even extrapolate into the future (because all we can see is where things were millions of years ago because of speed-of-light), lots of ships ended up flying into planets and suns. Safe travel was pure luck, with fleets loosing like 10% of their ships with each jump, and even those jumps were purposefully shorter to drop it down to that 10%.

But then the first of the Navigators was a genius inventor that discovered that copious amounts of Spice (which was worthless at the time) let her see across space to see where all the planets and spacial bodies in a system would be, so a ship could be guided to exist warp travel in a safe spot. But it also turned her into a monster with a giant brain and stunted limbs.

Without spice space travel is possible, but A: super slow, even by using super fast engines, or if using space folding tech, insanely risky.


Dune @ 2021/03/22 14:39:37


Post by: Easy E


This thread is full of heresy.

The Lynch film rules! Sure, it may not be THE book Dune, but just a dune film, but it is amazing in its own right.


Dune @ 2021/03/22 17:23:47


Post by: Compel


For an alternative you might want to watch the Dune Miniseries from the SciFi channel. Although, it's less kind of a miniseries and almost more, 'a theatre production with some turn-of-the-century budget CGI.'

However, the additional length helps explain and flesh out the story more, the Baron very much is more of a Shakespearian type villain and character.

There's also a follow up film to this, called 'Children of Dune' staring a very young James McAvoy, that covers the next two books. It also has significantly better CGI, and looks more like a proper miniseries.


Dune @ 2021/03/22 18:04:07


Post by: Jadenim


 Easy E wrote:
This thread is full of heresy.

The Lynch film rules! Sure, it may not be THE book Dune, but just a dune film, but it is amazing in its own right.


Did you once see me say I didn’t like it?!


Dune @ 2021/03/22 18:29:28


Post by: Easy E


 Jadenim wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
This thread is full of heresy.

The Lynch film rules! Sure, it may not be THE book Dune, but just a dune film, but it is amazing in its own right.


Did you once see me say I didn’t like it?!


Good man! Good man. Carry-on!


Dune @ 2021/03/23 21:42:57


Post by: gorgon


Aash wrote:
It’s been a while since I’ve read Dune, and this is from memory, so if I’ve made any mistakes please correct me!

Spice is highly addictive and withdrawal is fatal, and at the time of the first book and movie, it is unable to be artificially produced so as Arrakis is the only source Arrakis is very important. Spice is used for many purposes, and is known for its mind expanding abilities and most of the nobles in Dune are spice addicts, so controlling it is very powerful.

Spice is also what allows navigators to fold space so is vital in order to maintain a galaxy spanning empire. The fact that spice is needed for this is a closely guarded secret of the navigator guild, which Paul discovers.


Melange also extends your lifespan. So it's highly valuable at a personal level and a galactic level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Compel wrote:
For an alternative you might want to watch the Dune Miniseries from the SciFi channel. Although, it's less kind of a miniseries and almost more, 'a theatre production with some turn-of-the-century budget CGI.'

However, the additional length helps explain and flesh out the story more, the Baron very much is more of a Shakespearian type villain and character.

There's also a follow up film to this, called 'Children of Dune' staring a very young James McAvoy, that covers the next two books. It also has significantly better CGI, and looks more like a proper miniseries.


Those miniseries handle some of the book themes better. Theater production is a good way to describe the style. They aren't bad.


Dune @ 2021/03/24 12:46:34


Post by: tneva82


 Rob Lee wrote:


What actually happens to Arrakis and the spice and what impact does whatever happens to it have on the imperium? What happens to the emperor, Paul, his sister, and the Fremen? What was the point of it all?


Thank you in advance for any enlightenment.


Mind you answer to these would require reading further books and reading storyline involving thousands of years. Dune is only the start.



Dune @ 2021/03/24 13:10:30


Post by: Compel


Yeah, and they get consistently more... I'm going to go with confusing, with every further book.

Other words are available.


Dune @ 2021/03/24 14:12:36


Post by: MDSW


Would not be the first time a movie tried its best to put on the screen an enormous book - heck, even a short book can't easily be translated to a two-hour film.

I have always been of the contention that changes made to movies from what was done in the book come from books being a cerebral, thinking experience; whereas films are more visual, so something that works in a book would not work so well in a film. Mostly, it works to the film's advantage, but not always!

I was a big Dune book fan and read the three, and it was a hugely complex world and character development - any movie would struggle, unless it does the LOTR three movie run, but I think it would bog severly and then they might have to add more exciting 'fluff' (The Hobbit comes to mind) that just more confuses things, so I do not know what the answer should be.


Dune @ 2021/03/24 15:24:28


Post by: gorgon


IIRC, part of the issue for Lynch was that the studio mandated a 2-hour runtime. So it was a fool's errand. He shot a whole bunch of extra stuff...some made into that TV version, other parts didn't.

Of course, he also didn't help himself by wasting precious screen time on odd gak that wasn't in the books and didn't help move the story. Weirding modules, milking kitties, etc.

I'm a big Lynch fan and a big Dune fan. But IMO the result of those two colliding was some serious destructive interference. It's not a good movie.


Dune @ 2021/03/24 16:12:24


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Compel wrote:
Yeah, and they get consistently more... I'm going to go with confusing, with every further book.

Other words are available.


I think they actually oscillate. I mean, they all have a hefty dollop of incomprehensible dialogue, but compared to Dune Messiah, Children of Dune is a fairly breezy adventure. Then comes the plodding God Emperor of Dune which is the make-it-or-break-it sequel for most people. Heretics of Dune is practically a pulp era space opera in comparison, with new factions, gadgets and powers. Chapterhouse Dune was more of the same, although I set it aside halfway through in that I left it in a suitcase and couldn’t find it until I had switched to another book.

Really hope that Marty and Daniel plot pays off.


Dune @ 2021/03/25 00:31:02


Post by: Voss


Huh. I'd call Children the plodding one. Its basically nothing but children-that-don't-act-like-children ruminating over nonsense philosophy the whole way through.

Its like someone re-wrote the Frodo & Sam bits of LotR and said, 'Ok, now do it again, but less interesting and more pretentious.'

With a bonus ending of 'Oh, I found a safe way out of this logic trap.' 'Well, crap.'
Spoiler:
'Right, nevermind that, time to marry you off, make a big show of a fake incestual marriage and go on with the terrible plan anyway'


Dune @ 2021/03/25 01:36:52


Post by: gorgon


I think one problem with Children is that Other Memory just isn't as compelling as prescience as the chief power wielded by the protagonists. It's actually kinda creepy in some ways. Maybe a lot of ways.

I still like it though...it completes 'the thought' of the original trilogy. If you skip Messiah or Children, you miss Herbert's point.


Dune @ 2021/03/25 04:02:31


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Dune also had some plodding parts. Children has intrigue, more action than Messiah or God Emperor, and an assassination plot involving trained tigers. Then it ends with what I can only describe as one of the squickier superhero origin stories. Maybe if I hadn’t read it right after Messiah I would have found it more tedious, but to me it had the same pacing as the first book.


Dune @ 2021/03/25 10:29:06


Post by: Flinty


When was Enders Game published? Maybe Herbert thought he also needed precocious children looking at the emperors new clothes as well


Dune @ 2021/03/25 17:40:42


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Ender’s Game was published almost ten years after Children of Dune. Might have been less of you consider the original (and superior) short story that Ender’s Game is based on.


Dune @ 2021/03/25 23:58:52


Post by: Flinty


Ah, fair enough


Dune @ 2021/07/19 20:00:08


Post by: gorgon


Cool character posters are here. Gotta love that cast!

https://nerdist.com/article/dune-character-posters-paul-chani-stilgar-baron-harkonnen/


Dune @ 2021/07/21 03:53:07


Post by: Thargrim


I got tickets to see the first 10 minutes/exclusive footage of the new movie tomorrow night including the new upcoming trailer. No phones allowed in, but I don't think I have to sign an NDA and can speak about it afterwards. I'm not even 100% sure i'll make it there, it's going to take hours to drive there. But I am going to try and make it. Despite having a pass they aren't guaranteeing a seat either.


Dune @ 2021/07/21 16:48:01


Post by: gorgon




Dune @ 2021/07/21 17:05:35


Post by: Momotaro


There was an extended version of the Lynch film that ran to 3 hours and was much better. It was made for TV distribution, though, so it had a 4:3 screen ratio. A widescreen version was put out on DVD eventually, but hasn't been on sale for at least a decade.

Channel 4 in the UK showed it in the 80s, and I kept a copy until my VHS player ate the tape :(


Dune @ 2021/07/21 22:34:08


Post by: AduroT


 Thargrim wrote:
I got tickets to see the first 10 minutes/exclusive footage of the new movie tomorrow night including the new upcoming trailer. No phones allowed in, but I don't think I have to sign an NDA and can speak about it afterwards. I'm not even 100% sure i'll make it there, it's going to take hours to drive there. But I am going to try and make it. Despite having a pass they aren't guaranteeing a seat either.


That is an insane level of dedication. An hours long drive to maybe see ten minutes of footage.


Dune @ 2021/07/22 00:28:57


Post by: Thargrim


 AduroT wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
I got tickets to see the first 10 minutes/exclusive footage of the new movie tomorrow night including the new upcoming trailer. No phones allowed in, but I don't think I have to sign an NDA and can speak about it afterwards. I'm not even 100% sure i'll make it there, it's going to take hours to drive there. But I am going to try and make it. Despite having a pass they aren't guaranteeing a seat either.


That is an insane level of dedication. An hours long drive to maybe see ten minutes of footage.


Its rumored to be more like 30 minutes including behind the scenes stuff. I'm in line right now and theres a bunch of people. Hour and a half before it even starts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, ya'll are in for a treat. See this new one in imax, trust me. Some things caught me by surprise a bit.

Spoiler:
the movie begins with an almost LOTR style narration from chani, showing fremen attacking harkonnen spice harvesters on arrakis. Not at all like the books opening, but it works. It's an exposition dump...but it was real clean and easy to digest. Bodes well for the movie's success IMO. There is some low key humor thrown in, but not anywhere near as cringey as the recent star wars movies. There was a scene where an imperial delegation including the reverand mother land on caladan to sign over arrakis to duke Leto. This scene was a standout for me. No full blown guild navigators, but instead I guess proto navigators. Imagine kind of opulent astronaut looking dudes (humanoid), with glass helmets and the helmet is full of the orange spice, kind of obscuring their features. They aren't transformed but are in the beginning stages of becoming a navigator.

Also, in a bold way the opening titles state the movie as Dune: part one. They're making sure to let the audience know that this is not meant to be a single movie. I think this might've been a good idea in the long run.


Dune @ 2021/07/22 14:44:38


Post by: gorgon


New trailer.






Dune @ 2021/07/22 15:03:32


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


That trailer didn’t do much for me.


Dune @ 2021/07/22 16:06:52


Post by: Frazzled


Me likey. I look forward to the inevitable "Paul vs. Anakin" threads on Space Battles.


Dune @ 2021/07/22 17:03:18


Post by: Ahtman


I always thought what Dune needed was cgi helmets like Black Panther/Iron Man for the sweet face reveals.

Arrakis may be beautiful when the sun is going down but when it is up it will kill you and blind you. Still when it is on the horizon it is very nice.


Dune @ 2021/07/22 17:45:53


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Frazzled wrote:
Me likey. I look forward to the inevitable "Paul vs. Anakin" threads on Space Battles.


That takes me back.

Every thread will split into two factions: “Jedi Precog beats all” and “Canonically, Jedi are dumb-dumbs”.


Dune @ 2021/07/22 18:08:55


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Looks pretty cool. Though in the last fight scene, both sides costumes looked incredibly similar.

Perhaps we’ll see that fixed in post?


Dune @ 2021/07/22 18:34:28


Post by: Frazzled


Yes I could not tell who from who on that.


Dune @ 2021/07/22 23:29:25


Post by: Ahtman


 Frazzled wrote:
Yes I could not tell who from who on that.


It is pretty easy really as one is wearing grey and the other is a light grey. Easy peazy.


Dune @ 2021/07/23 13:08:37


Post by: trexmeyer


Trailer shows too much. Isn't this movie supposed to just show the first half of the book? They've shown all that in the trailer. Chalamet is an awful choice for Paul or any leadership role. He seriously needs to put on 10-15 pounds just to look healthy and he definitely doesn't look like he is water-fat as described in the book.


Dune @ 2021/07/23 17:22:37


Post by: gorgon


Stop it. The book is 56 years old. There are no 'spoilers' when the material is past half a hundred.


Dune @ 2021/07/23 17:44:53


Post by: Lord of Deeds


Personally, I was impressed by the latest trailer and at this point I am definitely planning on watching on an IMAX screen if available.

As for Timothée Chalamet, despite his bantam class appearance, after seeing his turn in Henry V, I am optimistic that he can have the type of presence that one would attribute to a prophetic character like the Kwisatz Haderach.

Given how long Dune has been around and the various visions that exist, both in picture and illustration, it’s reasonable to expect that not everyone is going to like the choices the current production team is making in bringing their vision of Dune to life.


Dune @ 2021/07/23 18:35:20


Post by: nels1031


 Ahtman wrote:
I always thought what Dune needed was cgi helmets like Black Panther/Iron Man for the sweet face reveals.


That was the only miss in any of these trailers so far, for me. CGI just didn't look right.

I think I've watched all of the trailers for this movie, and The Green Knight like 20 times each.



Dune @ 2021/07/23 18:43:31


Post by: Thargrim


Yeah that last few seconds of the trailer was questionable CGI to me. I think that is a dream sequence of the jihad for sure, and probably a pretty brief scene. But his face looked odd in that helmet.

I'm not worried at all about Chalamet as Paul.


Dune @ 2021/07/23 19:58:39


Post by: SamusDrake


 trexmeyer wrote:
Chalamet is an awful choice for Paul or any leadership role. He seriously needs to put on 10-15 pounds just to look healthy and he definitely doesn't look like he is water-fat as described in the book.


Like Zendaya, Timothee has been picked for the benefit of the teenage audience. Hollywood demands that seats be filled and all that jazz.


Dune @ 2021/07/23 20:23:12


Post by: gorgon


 Thargrim wrote:
Yeah that last few seconds of the trailer was questionable CGI to me. I think that is a dream sequence of the jihad for sure, and probably a pretty brief scene. But his face looked odd in that helmet.

I'm not worried at all about Chalamet as Paul.


Yeah. At 25 years old, Chalamet has been nominated for an Academy Award, three BAFTA Film Awards, two Golden Globe Awards, four Screen Actors Guild Awards, and four Critics' Choice Movie Awards. He even looks just like how Herbert described Paul.

Somehow I trust in his performance and Denis Villeneuve's instincts over the weird proclivities of dorkdom, which tends to be *famously wrong* about casting decisions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
Chalamet is an awful choice for Paul or any leadership role. He seriously needs to put on 10-15 pounds just to look healthy and he definitely doesn't look like he is water-fat as described in the book.


Like Zendaya, Timothee has been picked for the benefit of the teenage audience. Hollywood demands that seats be filled and all that jazz.


Zendaya's a terrific young actress who won an Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series for her performance in Euphoria on HBO. She was the youngest winner ever.

People need to branch out and watch things other than superhero movies and gak.


Dune @ 2021/07/23 23:41:00


Post by: SamusDrake


 gorgon wrote:


Zendaya's a terrific young actress who won an Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series for her performance in Euphoria on HBO. She was the youngest winner ever.

People need to branch out and watch things other than superhero movies and gak.


What has superhero movies got to do with this or Dune?


Dune @ 2021/07/23 23:50:32


Post by: AegisGrimm


SamusDrake wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
Chalamet is an awful choice for Paul or any leadership role. He seriously needs to put on 10-15 pounds just to look healthy and he definitely doesn't look like he is water-fat as described in the book.


Like Zendaya, Timothee has been picked for the benefit of the teenage audience. Hollywood demands that seats be filled and all that jazz.


But the characters are supposed to be teenagers............Paul is 15 at the beginning of the book....


Dune @ 2021/07/24 08:21:14


Post by: SamusDrake


 AegisGrimm wrote:


But the characters are supposed to be teenagers............Paul is 15 at the beginning of the book....


My point is that Timothee has - at least in part - been selected for his very handsome looks, and that studios are willing to overlook minor details if it means selling more seats.

This isn't knocking Timothee nor Zendaya, but a reminder that Dune is ultimately a hollywood blockbuster - not an independent arthouse film.




Dune @ 2021/07/24 18:19:51


Post by: Totalwar1402


Just had a question on Dune novels. I watched some stuff on Dune from Quins Ideas on YouTube following on from some Song of Ice and Fire stuff. But I was a little confused.

I get that the author wants to sell the idea that charismatic leaders are dangerous and subvert the chosen one trope. People have been doing that since at least Napoleon so it’s fairly run of the mill and I can easily get that aspect of it. But does he actually advocate the idea of “human stagnancy” requiring the intervention of something like the Golden Path to “break a few eggs” to knock humanity out of its juvenile state? Or is the fact this “Great Enemy” never shows up meant to indicate that the characters advocating the Golden Path are ultimately ignorant and entirely mistaken, a bit like Melisandre in Ice n Fire and this isn’t a legitimate issue the author wants us to consider? Just there’s a lot of discussion on that point and I don’t see why it would be discussed so extensively if it’s just the authors satire on Stalinism. I assume there’s more to it than just Animal Farm in space and once that audible credit rolls in I might get the audiobook in advance of the movie but just wanted to clear that point up because I get really mixed messages on this series. Some people say that it’s a critique of “naive” sci fi like Star Trek and others say that it’s subverting authoritarianism and selling the idea of rugged individualism being the answer.



Dune @ 2021/07/24 19:37:28


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


To me it seemed to be selling rugged individualism, and the idea that comfortable existence is bad for humanity.


Dune @ 2021/07/25 07:37:42


Post by: Jadenim


There are a lot of elements floating in the background of Dune; over reliance on a single resource and how that concentrates economic and political power into a small elite (*cough* oil *cough*), humanity’s tendency to be lazy and self destructive unless driven by an immediate external threat/force and our tendency to blindly follow charismatic leaders regardless of whether that’s a good thing or not.

It’s basically the morning sermon from Life of Brian writ large (“You’re all individuals, you can all figure it out yourselves”…)

Part of the reason Dune has been such an enduring success is that it is a complex, layered book and doesn’t stick to simple, easy, tropes.


Dune @ 2021/07/25 08:02:08


Post by: Ahtman


 Jadenim wrote:
“You’re all individuals


I'm not.


Dune @ 2021/07/25 16:07:19


Post by: Jadenim


 Ahtman wrote:
 Jadenim wrote:
“You’re all individuals


I'm not.


Exalted!


Dune @ 2021/07/25 16:58:24


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
That trailer didn’t do much for me.


Caused the same confusion the Justice League trailer did, I was busy considering Ms Coleman and the Momoa popped up and rushed into the wrong bit of my brain #neverconfused

Some unfinished cg aside am somewhat hopeful



Dune @ 2021/07/26 15:08:25


Post by: Frazzled


SamusDrake wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
Chalamet is an awful choice for Paul or any leadership role. He seriously needs to put on 10-15 pounds just to look healthy and he definitely doesn't look like he is water-fat as described in the book.


Like Zendaya, Timothee has been picked for the benefit of the teenage audience. Hollywood demands that seats be filled and all that jazz.


Well..both of them were supposed to be very young in the book. Both actors are actually a good bit older.

Zendaya showed serious acting chops in the Malcolm and Marie. I imagine she will be underutilized in this actually.
Timothee played Paul very well in Dune 1327...er Henry.

Batista as Rauban, and Skarsguard as the Baron, is inspired.


Dune @ 2021/07/26 23:02:17


Post by: SamusDrake


 Frazzled wrote:

Well..both of them were supposed to be very young in the book. Both actors are actually a good bit older.

Zendaya showed serious acting chops in the Malcolm and Marie. I imagine she will be underutilized in this actually.
Timothee played Paul very well in Dune 1327...er Henry.

Batista as Rauban, and Skarsguard as the Baron, is inspired.


I've already explained this in a follow up post. Best we don't go round in circles.


Dune @ 2021/07/27 00:00:26


Post by: gorgon


I’m not sure we understand your point. Both actors are attractive people, but most young actors are. Pretty faces are a dime a dozen in Hollywood. These two actors were chosen from among the pretty faces because they’re very good actors who fit the parts. I’m sure the filmmakers could have hired a pair of gorgeous unknowns with questionable acting chops and thereby saved themselves some cash if looks was the main criteria.


Dune @ 2021/07/27 01:33:08


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I mean, they could have had some PAs rough Chalomet up a little, uneven that face a bit.


Dune @ 2021/07/27 08:12:58


Post by: SamusDrake


 gorgon wrote:
I’m not sure we understand your point. Both actors are attractive people, but most young actors are. Pretty faces are a dime a dozen in Hollywood. These two actors were chosen from among the pretty faces because they’re very good actors who fit the parts. I’m sure the filmmakers could have hired a pair of gorgeous unknowns with questionable acting chops and thereby saved themselves some cash if looks was the main criteria.


Here is another example to illustrate my point; Jennifer Lawrence in the Hunger Games.

I've not read the book nor seen any of the films, but my friends that have complain that Jennifer doesn't look like a young girl from a very poor location. Apparently Katnis in the books has a thin, undernourished appeareance.

But Jen is a good actor with very good looks and is basically playing a young girl, and thats all the suits from Hollywood care about. If someone then pointed out "she doesn't fit the description in the book" then they will be ignored as they are happy with their chosen actor.

Basically, Hollywood doesn't just accept any pretty face as they are surrounded by them - they want THE face that beats the competition. The film makers - who just want to make a faithful adaptation of the book - know this and will get that face in order to secure funding.

If we still don't understand, then watch the beginning of King Kong( 1933 ). Carl Denham's frustation says it all...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I mean, they could have had some PAs rough Chalomet up a little, uneven that face a bit.


Well its a tough business and one does have to pay their dues...






Dune @ 2021/07/28 10:03:48


Post by: warboss


The trailer actually got me a little bit excited. I hope this doesn't suck and, if it doesn't, that the second part actually gets made in a way (budget and production standard) that actually matches the first.


Dune @ 2021/07/28 11:53:27


Post by: Jadenim


The fact that they seem to be investing in marketing this far out from release does suggest that they think they have a winner on their hands?


Dune @ 2021/07/28 12:44:25


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Jadenim wrote:
The fact that they seem to be investing in marketing this far out from release does suggest that they think they have a winner on their hands?


It could be the upcoming, post lockdown “we can actually go to the cinema? How novel!” Scramble for attention.

A lot of films were of course postponed, with a mere handful trialled (to unknown success) on streaming platforms.

If they’ve spent big, they’ve had to wait a long while to see any return on that investment. With a real rush of movies coming out (three more MCU this year alone, and six in the next twelve calendar months, which is crazy), now is the time to be raising your voice and waving your flag.

The no doubt manic release schedule could also help revitalise cinema going as a preference.


Dune @ 2021/07/28 14:41:11


Post by: gorgon


I think they're hoping this is a film that gets people back to the theaters. I wouldn't be surprised if the HBO Max premiere gets pushed back to give the film a few dedicated weeks in the theaters first.

I have HBO Max, but I'm planning to see this on IMAX.


Dune @ 2021/07/28 15:33:14


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


With all the news of the Delta Variant’s rising numbers, I can’t see a theater only release right now being too successful. Seems like Box Office spiked a few weeks ago and now everyone is starting to feel like maybe they can wait to see movies at home again.


Dune @ 2021/07/28 16:59:50


Post by: gorgon


It's a late October release. Plenty can change between now and then.


Edit: Things may get increasingly local/regional with this stuff. In my county, over 60% of the population has received at least one dose of vaccine, and the positive test rate is at 1.4%. There are plenty of other places around the country that aren't faring so well. Although people in those places may also be less inclined to be careful. If the environment becomes one of areas of low risk, and areas of high risk but little caution...I think it stands to reason that audiences will start returning.


Dune @ 2021/07/28 22:21:10


Post by: trexmeyer


 gorgon wrote:
It's a late October release. Plenty can change between now and then.


Edit: Things may get increasingly local/regional with this stuff. In my county, over 60% of the population has received at least one dose of vaccine, and the positive test rate is at 1.4%. There are plenty of other places around the country that aren't faring so well. Although people in those places may also be less inclined to be careful. If the environment becomes one of areas of low risk, and areas of high risk but little caution...I think it stands to reason that audiences will start returning.


Vaccines don't seem to be working well against the new variant and lockdowns are being reimposed in areas with vaccination rates over 60% so I think it's a wash for now.

On topic, I don't know who criticized Zendaya, but it wasn't me. Not sure why people got a bee in their bonnet over that. Timothee still needs to eat something, he genuinely looks unwell.


Dune @ 2021/07/28 23:06:40


Post by: Flinty


UK is primarily Delta variant just now, and things are being opened up and cases are coming down, so maybe you just need to get to higher vaccination completion to cut proper firebreaks through the population. Hope is out there!


Dune @ 2021/07/28 23:13:55


Post by: Overread


 Flinty wrote:
UK is primarily Delta variant just now, and things are being opened up and cases are coming down, so maybe you just need to get to higher vaccination completion to cut proper firebreaks through the population. Hope is out there!


I should note cases are going down, but that was just in advance of opening up fully. We've yet to have "2 open weeks" to really see what's going to happen. It might be the cases were falling due to the fact that the semi-lockdown meant it had exhausted easy targets who are now more mobile now that we are "unlocked". So we could get another spike.

The important things to note, in my view, are that the reduction is very sudden and sharp like the onset of a full lockdown without having had one; and that the number of people hospitalized is far lower than before even though we've had infection rates far higher than before. Both of those at least point to the vaccines giving a big help to the situation.


Dune @ 2021/07/28 23:27:02


Post by: SamusDrake


 trexmeyer wrote:


On topic, I don't know who criticized Zendaya, but it wasn't me. Not sure why people got a bee in their bonnet over that. Timothee still needs to eat something, he genuinely looks unwell.


It was aimed at me( when I replied to your previous post ) even though I wasn't knocking her or Timothee's acting abilities. I was only sharing with you what the Hollywood suits care about at the end of the day( a dreamy looking couple they can market ), and yet others had somehow mistaken that for "Zendaya is a crap actress".

In a nutshell, don't expect too much from hollywood's casting choices as they will not let minor details get in the way( "minor" at least in their eyes, of course). For example, see my previous post where I give the example of Jennifer Lawrence in the role of Katnis.


Dune @ 2021/07/29 01:26:50


Post by: chromedog


A fully masked cinema release would be cool and so thematic for this film.

That way, if you see anyone unmasked, you can exclaim "They waste the sietch's water."


Dune @ 2021/07/29 06:22:18


Post by: Jadenim


 chromedog wrote:
A fully masked cinema release would be cool and so thematic for this film.

That way, if you see anyone unmasked, you can exclaim "They waste the sietch's water."


Hahaha


Dune @ 2021/09/04 08:43:33


Post by: Pacific


The reviews embargo has now been lifted and first reviews are coming in..

In the UK press, 5 stars from Empire, Telegraph, Independent, The Guardian
Quite a few 4 stars as well, I think hardest reviews from Variety and have seen a couple of 3-stars.

Dare I hope?


Dune @ 2021/09/04 08:46:01


Post by: Insectum7


I won't even read them. I hope to not hear anything about it until I see it, really.


Dune @ 2021/09/04 10:44:27


Post by: warboss


I hope that this will be the first film I see since Shazam assuming it's great.


Dune @ 2021/09/05 19:14:25


Post by: Thargrim


Reviews for the movie are shaping up pretty good so far. I still can't believe I have to wait until almost halloween to see it but europe gets it in like 2 weeks. Still going to see it in theaters though.


Dune @ 2021/09/06 02:25:22


Post by: gorgon


Yeah, overall looking good, although there are certainly some outliers. In a number of those cases, it seems to be a window into the mind of the reviewer. I noted that Empire felt the director and writers handled the universe building aspect very well, while I saw a couple others that were more bewildered by it all.

I actually read one review that started off saying how she'd never read the book and ended with her proudly stating she never would. Reviewers like that remind me of what we used to say about film majors in college...that they're lit majors who couldn't hack it. You're allowed not to like the movie, and maybe it in fact isn't any good. But why some kind of personal kanly against the BOOK that you have to air publicly? What, would reading a book take you away from your thoughtful deconstructions of masterpieces like Peter Rabbit 2 and Thunder Force?

ANYWAY...from what I've read it seems like they've captured the themes of the book better than past film versions. I'm not sure how much money it can make in this environment however. Which puts the completion of the first book's story at risk. Kinda sucks.


Dune @ 2021/09/17 19:43:34


Post by: Thargrim


Anyone in europe seen this yet? It's out in France and some other european countries right now. Seems it's doing pretty well $$ wise in France.


Dune @ 2021/09/18 09:44:37


Post by: Blackie


I planned to see it this week, but a friend of mine couldn't so we're watching it next week.

I don't know what to expect which is usually a good thing: I adore Villeneuve and watched all his works multiple times but the Dune from the 80s was probably the worst movie I've ever seen (seriously, it's one of the two movies, among the 2500 I've rated on IMDB, that I've rated with 1/10) and I can't stand Zendaya.

So Dune doesn't get my hyped but it can't be worse than the older movie and there's also the Blade Runner precedent to take into account: an impossible task for anyone as Scott's movie is an absolute masterpiece and yet Villeneuve managed to direct an amazing movie that really can be compared to the older one without calling it heresy. And apparently Zendaya has a minor role .


Dune @ 2021/09/20 06:00:39


Post by: kodos


Seen it yesterday, solid 8/10

you still need to know something about Dune to get all and those who don't like Lynchs movie because it does not explain everything and/or has not enough world building will hate the new one


Dune @ 2021/09/21 15:27:47


Post by: Pacific


It's coming out in the UK towards the end of October I believe.

Was in France the other week and Timothee Chalamet is on a lot of magazine covers, looks like they are pushing quite hard with the marketing there (which I guess makes sense!)


Dune @ 2021/09/21 18:20:58


Post by: gorgon


Box office seems good so far...? Let's keep our fingers crossed. Even if I end up underwhelmed by part 1...I'm still going to want to see part 2, and that isn't happening unless WB makes some bank.


Dune @ 2021/09/24 09:44:42


Post by: tneva82


Saw it last sunday. Better than lynch film, still prefer book.

Seems writing for part 2 started in august so odds are good.


Dune @ 2021/09/27 17:59:32


Post by: Da Boss


I saw it this weekend. I thought it was pretty good, very true to the book. Action scenes could have been a little bit more dynamic but overall it was better than I expected. Hope they make the sequel!


Dune @ 2021/09/28 01:38:28


Post by: chromedog


Pt2 is in pre-production now.


Dune @ 2021/09/28 04:55:40


Post by: dream archipelago


Was meant to see it last week, but will life got in the way so will go see it tonight with my board gaming group. Took us ages booking the tickets as no one could decide or figure out who was booking them (it's becoming clearer to me why we fail at so many board games). Looking forward to it, but not looking forward to the length of the film. Think I'll smuggle some food in with me, would be nice eating burgers while watching it.


Dune @ 2021/09/28 06:39:27


Post by: Blackie


Saw it yesterday and I didn't like it. Much better than Lynch's movie of course but still quite boring and all the characters (I mean really each one of them) are totally uninspiring. Movie is very well directed though, classic Villeneuve, it has a great soundtrack and visual effects, as always. Villeneuve is one of my favorite living directors and I loved all his previous works but this Dune really didn't impress me at all.

I'll certainly watch the second part to see how it ends, but I don't think I'll ever watch this one again. All the other 5 friends I was with liked it though, one even loved it. I'd give it a 4 or 5 out of 10.


Dune @ 2021/09/29 16:17:00


Post by: dream archipelago


Well, I was wrong. Went in with my bag of low expectations and was consequently blown away. Fantastic film.


Dune @ 2021/09/30 08:33:30


Post by: tneva82


Stilgar was one of my biggest dissapointments. Hopefully pt2 improves on that part.

Or I'm just the odd one


Dune @ 2021/10/18 14:18:47


Post by: Pacific


Well.. I have seen the trailer!
Hoping it will be a good 'big screen' movie and worth the trip to the cinema.

Believe the film is out in the UK this week, so just a case now of timing it now and give it a bit of time for things to get quieter..


Dune @ 2021/10/18 14:38:30


Post by: Thargrim


I got tickets to see it on friday, hopefully it does ok in the states. If presales are any indication it might not do as well in china as they were hoping.


Dune @ 2021/10/18 15:30:51


Post by: StraightSilver


I read a (spoiler free) review and within that it is recommended, strongly, that you try to see this at an Imax cinema.

Apparently it was shot specifically for Imax screens and so is in 1.90:1 aspect ratio.

This proves problematic on normal cinema screens which means they have to zoom in on shots, which ruins the experience.

Just in case anybody needed to know.


Dune @ 2021/10/18 16:06:01


Post by: gorgon


Got my ticket for Thursday on IMAX!


Dune @ 2021/10/18 18:39:24


Post by: Easy E


The closest IMax to me is.... longer than a sane person would travel.

This news bums me out.


Dune @ 2021/10/19 01:00:17


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I might get to watch it on my laptop.


Dune @ 2021/10/19 07:46:06


Post by: Blackie


I watched it on a normal cinema and I thought the visuals were actually great. Never felt like it was created for a different screen size.

It's the act of most of the cast and the plot the problems of this movie.


Dune @ 2021/10/19 10:51:19


Post by: Pacific


StraightSilver wrote:
I read a (spoiler free) review and within that it is recommended, strongly, that you try to see this at an Imax cinema.

Apparently it was shot specifically for Imax screens and so is in 1.90:1 aspect ratio.

This proves problematic on normal cinema screens which means they have to zoom in on shots, which ruins the experience.

Just in case anybody needed to know.


Thanks very much for the heads up


Dune @ 2021/10/19 22:20:41


Post by: chromedog


StraightSilver wrote:
I read a (spoiler free) review and within that it is recommended, strongly, that you try to see this at an Imax cinema.

Apparently it was shot specifically for Imax screens and so is in 1.90:1 aspect ratio.

This proves problematic on normal cinema screens which means they have to zoom in on shots, which ruins the experience.

Just in case anybody needed to know.


My closest IMAX is a longer drive from me than the movie duration. Not that this matters, since we're still not allowed to go there and it doesn't open theatrically here until December. When our lockdown lifts, and I'm able to get my full driver's licence it'll maybe save me 30 minutes on the trip. Still, a longer drive than I would willingly do for a movie. No matter how good it is.


Dune @ 2021/10/21 18:27:52


Post by: the_scotsman


you know, getting spammed with trailers for Dune on my phone trying to watch youtube is letting me know one thing:

just how INTENSELY cringeworthy a lot of the writing from Dune is when said out loud in a serious tone by humans.

good lord. I was kind of hyped for this movie, but every time an ad pops up and a serious man growls "Lets fight like demons" followed by a lady saying "we have only known the oppression of the outsiders" I do want to die a little.


Dune @ 2021/10/21 19:22:56


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


What? The dialogue sounds perfectly natural to me. Why, the other day I turned to the person next to me at the DMV and said, “History will remember us as wives.”

Everyone in the building seemed emotionally invested in the conversation after that.


Dune @ 2021/10/21 20:03:41


Post by: Azreal13


This seems like a thread it's best not to pull at...


Dune @ 2021/10/21 21:25:13


Post by: Thargrim


 the_scotsman wrote:
you know, getting spammed with trailers for Dune on my phone trying to watch youtube is letting me know one thing:

just how INTENSELY cringeworthy a lot of the writing from Dune is when said out loud in a serious tone by humans.

good lord. I was kind of hyped for this movie, but every time an ad pops up and a serious man growls "Lets fight like demons" followed by a lady saying "we have only known the oppression of the outsiders" I do want to die a little.


Lol I thought the "lets fight like demons" line was pretty cringe. But it ended up being good ol trailer editing anyway.

Spoiler:

Duncan does say "they fight like demons" speaking to the duke in reference to the time he spent among the fremen.



Dune @ 2021/10/21 23:21:52


Post by: SamusDrake


Not the adaptation we were hoping for but the visual experience is very strong.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 01:35:17


Post by: nels1031


I enjoyed it, definitely will watch again, but my hype for the rest of the story is pretty much DOA as I don’t think they’ve even started production. So 3 years minumum I’d say. Thats rough.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 02:36:42


Post by: Azreal13


I've seen Villeneuve quoted quite recently saying that if they're greenlit promptly, he could be ready to start production next year. So 2023 isn't impossible.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 07:51:30


Post by: chromedog


Well, it WAS greenlit a couple of months back, and is currently in PRE-production - and still planned to begin principal filming in the new year.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 13:30:48


Post by: gorgon


Well, I saw it last night on IMAX. Plenty to talk about, so my first go will be a little bit stream-of-consciousness, like a spice vision.

Overall, I felt similar to how I felt coming out of Fellowship of the Ring. That I could find ways to criticize it, but it's about as good of a job as I could realistically imagine of adapting the source material. Hard for me to imagine anyone doing it better in that format. It is very Villeneuve in terms of visuals and mood. His films can have a kind of tone poem quality and Dune is no different. See it on as big of a screen as you can. The visuals are really something, and although some may find the Zimmer score to be too bombastic, I thought it was actually one of his more interesting scores in years.

There's plenty that was trimmed.
Spoiler:
Thufir's and Yueh's screentimes were pretty light except the necessary stuff. Honestly, even the Baron's screentime felt light. It's very focused on Leto, Jessica and Paul, and although I would have liked to see a little more of certain characters, I think that's a perfectly appropriate filmmaking decision for this part. Focus it on the family.

Alas, the banquet scene -- one of my favorite in the whole series -- is missing. I understand why...but part of me wants to know how Villeneuve would have attacked it.

I wondered how much they'd "save" for the second part since the book can feel a little front-heavy in certain ways. And the answer is that there's plenty just in terms of additional characters to introduce...we see nothing of Shaddam, Irulan or Feyd. We'll see plenty of Giedi Prime and Kaitain in part two.


But although we can talk about what's missing, the important stuff is there, and there are so many good Dune details that were included. Maula pistols and Atreides hand signals and stilltent explanations and drumsand and an Orange Catholic Bible...I could go on. I think we discussed Paul's headboard before. Although I'd still call everyone's water discipline fairly terrible (LOL), we finally see stillsuit hoods. The book has been distilled down somewhat (pun intended) but not truly dumbed down.

This may seem like an odd thing to hone in on, but I really liked how they handled Jamis.

Spoiler:
Seemed pretty obvious that their fight would more or less be the climax to this part. And that made me curious as to whether we'd get the fight as in the book or a Hollywood version. We got the book version where Paul easily outclasses Jamis. This is important because the Fremen need to be impressed with Paul, but the Hollywood instinct would be for a close, tense fight in order to amp up the drama. Goes to show you that Villeneuve was in control.

But I also really loved Paul's visions of Jamis as his mentor and friend. Great touch...adds poignancy to the fight and death, and also illustrates to Paul and us that his prescience is fallable.


More to say later...I'm still digesting.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 13:55:41


Post by: BertBert


I was pleasantly surprised with it. Villeneuve's drawn out melancholic style really matches the source material, much better than it did Blade Runner imo.

The movie also seemed to stick fairly close to the original story so far, but then again, it has been almost 20 years since I last read Dune. Couple of things were also left unexplained in the movie, which left my friends a bit confused - for example why everyone is fighting with swords and not with guns, especially since there are a couple of depictions of ballistic weapons working on shields (without provoking a nuclear explosion, that is).

I had also hoped for a bit more Baron Harkonnen, as his dialogues were my absolute favourite parts in the book. The cast was also well chosen in my view, as no one looked out of place. The actor for Pyter was particularly amazing, too bad he had so few scenes. Genderswapped Kynes was mildly annoying but ultimately a small concession to Hollywood sensitivities. I also really warmed up to Timothee Chalamet as Paul. He does look a bit uncanny (in a good way) which suits the very alien overall feel of the setting. This is something I really have to point out: They managed to make it feel distinctly alien. The Sardaukar ceremony was haunting and the sense of scale is appropriate and backed up by amazing exposition shots. There are a few deliberate anachronisms, but I feel they worked just fine. The bagpipes might have been a tad too much for me, but it's no dealbraker.

Anyway, looking forward to my second viewing and a possible sequel. I'm a bit worried about box office figures because there is almost no marketing exposure around here, not sure if that's a global thing, but it might become an issue.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 14:42:37


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Its the military, gotta have bagpipes.



Dune @ 2021/10/22 14:43:43


Post by: BertBert


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Its the military, gotta have bagpipes.



Can't argue with that.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 14:52:21


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 BertBert wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Its the military, gotta have bagpipes.



Can't argue with that.


And personal shields, lasers and drop ships! But first bagpipes


Dune @ 2021/10/22 15:39:41


Post by: warboss


The_Real_Chris wrote:
 BertBert wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Its the military, gotta have bagpipes.



Can't argue with that.


And personal shields, lasers and drop ships! But first bagpipes


Combine them all. Sonic personal shields projected out of the top pipes with a laser coming out of the bottom flute like tube. Thematically, power words can be used with this as well via power ballads.

Edit: Forgot the drop ship. Perhaps for parades as the lead float in front of the bagpipe troopers.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 16:12:10


Post by: gorgon


 BertBert wrote:
This is something I really have to point out: They managed to make it feel distinctly alien. The Sardaukar ceremony was haunting and the sense of scale is appropriate and backed up by amazing exposition shots.


Some of the larger ships and certain images reminded me of the work Giger did for Jodorowsky, actually. Techno-organic look.

Continuing on my thoughts from earlier, I think the standout performance is Rebecca Ferguson. Jessica is a very complex character, and I think Ferguson changes gears really deftly.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 16:17:51


Post by: BertBert


 gorgon wrote:
 BertBert wrote:
This is something I really have to point out: They managed to make it feel distinctly alien. The Sardaukar ceremony was haunting and the sense of scale is appropriate and backed up by amazing exposition shots.


Some of the larger ships and certain images reminded me of the work Giger did for Jodorowsky, actually. Techno-organic look.

Continuing on my thoughts from earlier, I think the standout performance is Rebecca Ferguson. Jessica is a very complex character, and I think Ferguson changes gears really deftly.


Yes, I forgot to mention her. Jessica was probably the most convincing character.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 16:39:50


Post by: Azreal13


 chromedog wrote:
Well, it WAS greenlit a couple of months back, and is currently in PRE-production - and still planned to begin principal filming in the new year.


Got a source for that? Honest question, as this story is less than 24 hours old.
https://screenrant.com/dune-2-movie-sequel-wb-not-confirmed-reason/

Subsequent to that, there's a story where a WB exec has hinted that maybe it has,

https://www.cinemablend.com/movies/dune-2-warner-bros-execs-latest-statement-on-the-denis-villeneuve-sequel-is-puzzling-yet-optimistic

but there very much isn't anything official out there I can find, and certainly not from months ago.


Dune @ 2021/10/22 16:47:24


Post by: gorgon


IIRC, Villeneuve and Spaihts have been writing part two for a while now. Doesn't mean it's been greenlit exactly, but it suggests that they felt it was likely enough to proceed at risk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BertBert wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 BertBert wrote:
This is something I really have to point out: They managed to make it feel distinctly alien. The Sardaukar ceremony was haunting and the sense of scale is appropriate and backed up by amazing exposition shots.


Some of the larger ships and certain images reminded me of the work Giger did for Jodorowsky, actually. Techno-organic look.

Continuing on my thoughts from earlier, I think the standout performance is Rebecca Ferguson. Jessica is a very complex character, and I think Ferguson changes gears really deftly.


Yes, I forgot to mention her. Jessica was probably the most convincing character.


And it's not the easiest role. She has to balance mother/duke's 'wife'/Bene Gesserit while going through a lot of complex emotions. She's frightened FOR her son, but also BY her son. She's also a mostly dutiful BG -- note she quickly turtles when Mohiam arrives -- but underneath it is a real level of defiance and even arrogance, which is why Paul's around in the first place. And she doesn't blink at using the Fremen to advance her agenda.


Dune @ 2021/10/23 13:28:29


Post by: Dreadwinter


Watched it last night on HBO. Damn good movie. They knocked it out of the park on this one.


Dune @ 2021/10/23 13:48:13


Post by: creeping-deth87


Watched it in the theater last night. It was.... Ok. This Denis Villeneuve guy just draws stuff out way, way too much. I had the exact same problem with Bladerunner 2049. Spent the last 40 minutes of both films going 'ok, let's go Denis' in my head. Like you know exactly where it's going, just get there already. He's very... I don't know if self indulgent is the right word. I think I would have liked it a lot more if he could just be more concise.

The tone, score, and aesthetic of the film is absolutely incredible. It's extremely atmospheric. I thought the casting was also really good except for Jason Mamoa, who just plays himself in every movie. The guy doesn't know how to play anything except the cocky badass.

As a visual spectacle the film is brilliant. Whether that does enough to paper over the cracks for you will largely depend on each individual viewer I think.


Dune @ 2021/10/23 17:01:46


Post by: Graphite


Just watched it. Very good, really enjoyed it. The sense of scale was impressive.


Dune @ 2021/10/23 17:50:21


Post by: Azreal13


I thought it was excellent. I'm probably fairly unusual in that, given my age and tastes, I probably should have a fairly established relationship with the book and original film, but have, to my recollection, never read the book, have probably seen the original adaptation but not all at once, and don't have any great affection for the IP.

Being able to come to an almost new IP to me with fresh eyes and no preconceptions, I didn't once feel like I needed to look outside the film to understand what was going on, or that the narrative was compromised to squeeze it into the running time.

If I let myself get distracted I instantly regretted it as I'd probably missed something amazing looking on the screen. Mother Nature chipping in so I had a lightning storm ongoing as the film entered the final act was just a bonus.

Also, did anyone get any distinctly Brando-esque Kilgore vibes from Skarskard's Baron Harkonnen?


Dune @ 2021/10/23 18:17:04


Post by: warboss


I wonder if this is going to end up like LOTR when it comes to physical media. I still remember how pissed I was when I bought the Fellowship DVD the day it released and on the special features it mentioned that a special edition was coming out six months later, lol.

I don't know how this will interact with the overlapping age of streaming that we're currently in either.


Dune @ 2021/10/23 19:50:35


Post by: Graphite


 Azreal13 wrote:
I thought it was excellent. I'm probably fairly unusual in that, given my age and tastes, I probably should have a fairly established relationship with the book and original film, but have, to my recollection, never read the book, have probably seen the original adaptation but not all at once, and don't have any great affection for the IP.

Being able to come to an almost new IP to me with fresh eyes and no preconceptions, I didn't once feel like I needed to look outside the film to understand what was going on, or that the narrative was compromised to squeeze it into the running time.

If I let myself get distracted I instantly regretted it as I'd probably missed something amazing looking on the screen. Mother Nature chipping in so I had a lightning storm ongoing as the film entered the final act was just a bonus.

Also, did anyone get any distinctly Brando-esque Kilgore vibes from Skarskard's Baron Harkonnen?


That's really interesting - I'm fairly familiar with the books (got up to Children of Dune as a teenager, I think, which killed my desire to read further), I like the shear bonkers style of the 1984 version, and started re-reading the book a while ago. I'd not finished the book, and the movie ends a couple of chapters after I reached so for the last 15 to 30 minutes I couldn't remember the details but knew roughly the course of the plot.

And while I left the cinema having thoroughly enjoyed it, I was wondering how bewildering it would be if you didn't have that background information. Good to know that it's not.

(Unlike Lynch's version, which would be bewildering even if watching with a copy of the book in hand)


Dune @ 2021/10/23 20:06:37


Post by: Azreal13


I'm not a perfect test subject, I understood the bare bones of the plot and the broad strokes of the background going in, and complex IPs are part and parcel of most of what we talk about on this board, but I certainly had no trouble understanding the motivations of the various factions and individuals. There's probably a lot more information I don't know, but I feel like the film gave me what I needed to understand it.

Not what I'd call a date movie though...


Dune @ 2021/10/23 20:25:07


Post by: Ahtman


Seen a few complaints about 'whispering' in it and I have to wonder what they would feel about the Lynch version which was 98% voice over whispers, 1% dialogue, and 1% Baron Harkonnen laughing.


Dune @ 2021/10/24 06:21:00


Post by: Jadenim


warboss wrote:I wonder if this is going to end up like LOTR when it comes to physical media. I still remember how pissed I was when I bought the Fellowship DVD the day it released and on the special features it mentioned that a special edition was coming out six months later, lol.

I don't know how this will interact with the overlapping age of streaming that we're currently in either.


Glad I’m not the only one who had this very specific annoyance!

Ahtman wrote:Seen a few complaints about 'whispering' in it and I have to wonder what they would feel about the Lynch version which was 98% voice over whispers, 1% dialogue, and 1% Baron Harkonnen laughing.


That’s not true. Baron Harkonnen laughing has to be at least 2%! And there’s at least 1% of Kyle Maclachlan yelling “FATHER!”…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just watched the Cinema Wins of the 1984 film. There are a lot of comments about ACTING


Dune @ 2021/10/24 06:55:46


Post by: Blackie


 gorgon wrote:


Continuing on my thoughts from earlier, I think the standout performance is Rebecca Ferguson. Jessica is a very complex character, and I think Ferguson changes gears really deftly.


Agree, definitely the best performance in that movie. But I do adore Rebecca Ferguson, and along Timothee Chalamet IMHO she is definitely the best actress in the entire cast. Also, she and the aforementioned actor were the only real protagonists of the movie, all the other characters have basically a supporting role or a very minor one.


Dune @ 2021/10/24 09:22:32


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Ahtman wrote:
Seen a few complaints about 'whispering' in it and I have to wonder what they would feel about the Lynch version which was 98% voice over whispers, 1% dialogue, and 1% Baron Harkonnen laughing.


Think your numbers are a smidge off as it omits some of Sir Picard's finest bellowing


Dune @ 2021/10/24 09:48:50


Post by: lord_blackfang


It was alright. As a non-reader, I don't see that it adds anything over the Lynch movie. Director seems to mistake brooding for acting.


Dune @ 2021/10/24 10:49:18


Post by: Shadow Walker


Some minor things:
Music being too loud sometimes.
Some Duncan sword moves being too fast to be able to penetrate the shields (so in ''reall' life some of those Sardaukar would survive and he would die faster).
No info about Mentats, Imperial Conditioning etc.


Dune @ 2021/10/24 12:01:10


Post by: stonehorse


Saw it on Friday night on Imax, think this is perfection. The closest we'll ever get to a Dune film that stays as true as possible to the book.

Really looking forward to part 2.


Dune @ 2021/10/24 14:02:43


Post by: Lord Damocles


 Ahtman wrote:
Seen a few complaints about 'whispering' in it and I have to wonder what they would feel about the Lynch version which was 98% voice over whispers, 1% dialogue, and 1% Baron Harkonnen laughing.

[user]
I did find quite a few bits of dialogue to be very mumbly - particularly when they were talking in made up space language. I completely missed a couple of lines because the characters were just muttering away from the mic.

That seems to be an increasingly common problem with modern movies for some reason.


Dune @ 2021/10/24 15:38:12


Post by: Tannhauser42


The wife and I watched it on HBO last night. I guess I liked it? The problem for me is that I've read the book a few times, seen the Lynch version a few times, and seen the SyFy version probably about a hundred times (it's long, so it makes for a great background while working on hobbies). So, there wasn't anything here new to me, but I did like the visuals. The ornithopters were really cool.



Dune @ 2021/10/24 18:43:35


Post by: Thargrim


Having seen it twice now, some quick ramble of thoughts:

Spoiler:

I prefer Paul in this over the Lynch version, where he seems more like a 30 y/o man. The Kynes gender swap didn't bug me at all since the actress did a good job. One thing this movie had which I don't recall in any other adaptation is the idea that the Bene Gesserit seeded the idea of Mahdi on the planet a long time ago. Showing that it's all an artificial construct as opposed to the Lynch version where Paul is a literal messiah and makes it rain at the end. The ornithopters were spot on and I need model kit or figurine of one.

The first scene with the baron is spot on colonel Kurtz from apocalypse now.



Dune @ 2021/10/25 12:51:37


Post by: gorgon


The sound was definitely a different experience at home versus IMAX. In the theater, the soundtrack and things like the 'thropters were just BOOMING, and certain lines were a little hard to hear. At home, I thought the dialogue was much clearer. I couldn't quite make out most of the 'whispers' in Paul's head in the theater, but thanks to the magic of subtitles I found out at home they were mostly about the Kwisatz Haderach.



Dune @ 2021/10/25 14:09:31


Post by: Easy E


I was pleased, and I love the Lynch version with no reservations. It was nice to see a Dune movie that was not so heavily edited and let play out a bit.

Now some minor nitpicks:
Everytime they said Harkonnen it took me out of the movie for a moment. My family as we talked afterwards started calling them Harknn'nn'nnn'nn' and adding even more N's every time we said it. That is one place where I much preferred the Lynch version.

The 1984 sand worms really hold up, and I prefer them to the ones we see here.

Not enough "psychedelic" scenes for the sake of psychedelic scenes! Where is my wacked out navigator? Where is my hand opening?

Overall, I may go an watch it again at the theatre!


Dune @ 2021/10/25 14:54:42


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


We saw it at home, on a TV.

First things first: it was unsatisfying because the story was incomplete. Most of the set ups had no pay offs because of that.

The design was great, but I prefer the sets from the Lynch film, which I felt had more flavor and texture. This Dune feels more generic Sci fi in comparison. The costumes were good for the most part, but The armor will probably feel dated in a decade or two.

This was a good adaptation. The voice was handled well, as well as the exposition (as well as could be expected). The pacing is good. It felt much more like a real movie than the previous one.


Dune @ 2021/10/25 17:26:29


Post by: Azreal13


First things first: it was unsatisfying because the story was incomplete. Most of the set ups had no pay offs because of that.


I don't really think that a film that identifies itself as "Part 1" within the opening few frames can really be criticised for that.

Especially when the same work has proven itself incredibly challenging and divisive to adapt as a single film.

Whether the whole concept of single films being released as a part of one cohesive plot (especially those that don't have subsequent parts confirmed) is a good thing or not is perhaps something worth debating. But I guess we have LOTR to thank/blame for making it a thing different from sequels.


Dune @ 2021/10/25 19:06:46


Post by: Lance845


Not LotR. The Hobbit. Or really, harry potter. The first instance of breaking a movie into 2 movies was HP and the Deathly Hallows. Then hunger games followed suit. Twilight, hobbit etc etc...


Dune @ 2021/10/25 19:15:48


Post by: Overread


I want to say its happened before

I think the original Hellraiser were done almost back to back so much so that when they were going to write Pinhead out of the film it was a very sudden change to push him back in due to fan reactions to the character.


That said I think one of the big differences between some of those where a film is made one then the next is that at least Lord of the Rings was made in one block and then broken into 3 films.

It's a rarer thing by far since its a much bigger up front cost and risk; if that first film flops you're done for .


Dune @ 2021/10/25 19:31:59


Post by: gorgon


Superman and Superman 2 predate those. Obviously there was a lot of drama there and things didn't go according to plan. But Donner shot a lot of what he had planned and needed for the sequel at the same time as the first film.

Edit: I think it's fair to mention that Dune ends without any real closure. But it's unfair to really ding it for that.


Dune @ 2021/10/25 20:05:32


Post by: lord_blackfang


Bit unfair to compare it to The Hobbit when Dune is a 800 page book in 3 parts.


Dune @ 2021/10/25 21:39:37


Post by: Jadenim


Just got back from the cinema, it certainly felt suitably epic. The imperial technology is a little too futuristic for my taste, but the space ships were pretty awesome (the Douglas Adams quote of “hanging in the air in exactly the same way bricks don’t” comes to mind). I loved the Dune / Fremen stuff, the ornithopters, sand compactors, etc.

Jamis was well done, for a minor character; I liked that they had him in some of the visions before hand. Speaking of which:
Spoiler:
Is the voice in his visions Alia? I certainly think the woman in the white robes with the bloody hand / knife is.


I also really like the Saudaukaur, more so than in the book. Instead of generic arrogant imperial soldiers, they have almost a brutal Viking vibe. Which much better fits the idea that they come from a deathworld.

All in all, a pretty damn good attempt and I’m really hoping that he gets to make the rest of it. It really feels like we’re only just getting to know the characters and I definitely want to see more.


Dune @ 2021/10/26 00:24:55


Post by: ccs


It looks great. It's accurate enough & doesn't leave those unfamiliar with the source baffled as to what's going on (like the Lynch version sans the animated opening sequence does).
I liked it well enough. And I suppose I'll see Pt.II assuming it's made. But once again, like every other version? It's just slow & doesn't change my opinion that Dune is best read, not watched.


Dune @ 2021/10/26 01:43:28


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Jadenim wrote:

Jamis was well done, for a minor character; I liked that they had him in some of the visions before hand. Speaking of which:
Spoiler:
Is the voice in his visions Alia? I certainly think the woman in the white robes with the bloody hand / knife is.



Spoiler:
Interesting - I'd just assumed the woman with the bloody hand was Chani - by meeting her, Paul's plans turn from escaping Arrakis to joining the Fremen. Metaphorically, the blood of the billions killed in the holy war to come are on her hands. On the other hand, his sister is called St Alia of the knife.

The credits list the voices as "Bene Gesserit Ancestors" - one of whom is Marianne Faithfull.


The aircraft looked cool, but they should look like birds, not dragonflies. Clue's in the name.


Dune @ 2021/10/26 03:11:17


Post by: warboss


Are you referring to the gom jabbar scene? If so, the woman with the knife and bloody hand is Chani. I haven't seen the film but Denis said it in an interview video that I'll try to find.

Edit: This should be it. I can't rewatch it with audio at the moment though for the timestamp.




Dune @ 2021/10/26 06:35:33


Post by: Jadenim


Trying to remember all of a two & half hour film after one showing, but I think the first vision (with the gom jabbar) was definitely Chani in desert garb and was whether or not he’d die when they first met (side note, I like the way his visions didn’t align perfectly with the future, good way of showing the shifting uncertainty of time).

The one I was referring to was much later, when he is seeing the jihad (I notice they didn’t use that word!), there is a woman in loose white robes with a bloody hand and knife. You never see her face.


Dune @ 2021/10/26 14:04:22


Post by: Easy E


 Jadenim wrote:
Trying to remember all of a two & half hour film after one showing, but I think the first vision (with the gom jabbar) was definitely Chani in desert garb and was whether or not he’d die when they first met (side note, I like the way his visions didn’t align perfectly with the future, good way of showing the shifting uncertainty of time).

The one I was referring to was much later, when he is seeing the jihad (I notice they didn’t use that word!), there is a woman in loose white robes with a bloody hand and knife. You never see her face.


They did use it. I think it came up once (maybe twice), and the pronunciation was a bit less anglicized.


Dune @ 2021/10/26 18:37:22


Post by: warboss


Part 2 confirmed.

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/dune-part-2-sequel-1235094974/


Dune @ 2021/10/27 06:13:37


Post by: Jadenim


Huzzah!


Dune @ 2021/10/27 13:11:39


Post by: stonehorse


Seen it twice now, going again this time with my Wife, who has not read the books. So going to be interesting to see her reaction to it.

Really glad that part two has been given the go ahead.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 14:14:39


Post by: Easy E


My daughter asked to go see it again, so that would be her third time.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 14:32:46


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 stonehorse wrote:
Seen it twice now, going again this time with my Wife, who has not read the books. So going to be interesting to see her reaction to it.

Really glad that part two has been given the go ahead.


It seems crazy it wasn’t green lit before. But these are of course unusual times.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 14:38:21


Post by: warboss


 Easy E wrote:
My daughter asked to go see it again, so that would be her third time.


Was she fresh to Dune or already familiar with it from the novels and previous adaptations? If the former, what part interests her most out of curiosity?


Dune @ 2021/10/27 16:31:56


Post by: Easy E


She was familiar with it from the Lynch version, but not the books.

I am not sure exactly what interests her the most about it, but I think it is a combination of the world-building, visuals, and the main actors in the new one.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 16:47:53


Post by: Lord Damocles


Having never read the book(s), are the Harkonnen such obviously over the top baddies in the original?



Dune @ 2021/10/27 16:50:30


Post by: warboss


Cool. I hope it doesn't eventually sour for her.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 17:20:26


Post by: Frazzled


 Lord Damocles wrote:
Having never read the book(s), are the Harkonnen such obviously over the top baddies in the original?



Yes. Having said that, in the books the only "good guys" really are Liet Kynes and the Fremen. Everyone else is just spectrum of manipulating bad guys.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 18:36:40


Post by: Jadenim


I struggle to even class the Fremen as “good guys” definitely the underdogs, but a brutal, utilitarian society that’s big on death cults, mortal combat and religious war hardly counts as “good”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I found it interesting that apparently part of the the reason part 2 got green lit is that they reached their estimated US opening weekend box office for part 1. An estimate that was made pre-pandemic. Which begs the question of how much of a breakout hit this would have been if released in the before times?


Dune @ 2021/10/27 18:58:39


Post by: Ahtman


 Frazzled wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
Having never read the book(s), are the Harkonnen such obviously over the top baddies in the original?



Yes. Having said that, in the books the only "good guys" really are Liet Kynes and the Fremen. Everyone else is just spectrum of manipulating bad guys.


Sounds like some Harkonnen propaganda right there.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 19:22:18


Post by: lord_blackfang


 Jadenim wrote:
I struggle to even class the Fremen as “good guys” definitely the underdogs, but a brutal, utilitarian society that’s big on death cults, mortal combat and religious war hardly counts as “good”.


That reads remarkably like the current default argument of colonial apologism. I don't know what that implies about Dune as political commentary.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 19:45:45


Post by: Azreal13


I think there might be a compelling "unreliable narrator" argument to be made about House Harkonnen.

Essentially all we are told about them is from Atredies POV, and they look kinda weird. But from their perspective they've been put in a position where they have to sacrifice their own to regain something they already had or suffer catastrophic financial and political damage.

Not to try and frame them as the good guys, but I think it's a riff on one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 19:59:21


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Well least they are honest about their selfishness, Leto I "nice guy" facade is pretty much what brings the Imperial House into the game, admittedly there might be some Harkonnen spin but no smoke without fire


Dune @ 2021/10/27 20:02:44


Post by: Lord Damocles


I think I'd have preferred if Harkonnen and Atredies were portrayed more as moral equals.

Instead Harkonnen all dress in black, hang out in dark smokey rooms, live on planet Lightning-Wracked Evil Place, and spend their free time torturing people.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 21:14:03


Post by: Lance845


Yeah but the reason the emperor is moving against Atredies is because they present as the good guys. They have political sway because the people of the empire view them as heroes. The moral great. The gods amongst men that they would follow, possibly even against the emperor.

The Harkonans are NOT that. They are not presenting the same or viewed as the same.

Its why the emperor wants to manipulate things to crush Atredies and in doing so remind Harkonan that dune was given to them and dune can be taken away. Arakis is not Harkonans right. Its the emperors, and he will give and take away as he sees fit.

Atredies isn't the golden boys they present as, but they DO present that way.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 21:29:11


Post by: LunarSol


 Azreal13 wrote:
Not to try and frame them as the good guys, but I think it's a riff on one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


Dune is in many ways a story far ahead of its time crafted with very outdated tools.


Dune @ 2021/10/27 22:19:39


Post by: Azreal13


While I'd like to think that, I'm afraid it just tackles themes which haven't changed in millennia because we never learn at a species level.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 08:36:22


Post by: Graphite


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 stonehorse wrote:
Seen it twice now, going again this time with my Wife, who has not read the books. So going to be interesting to see her reaction to it.

Really glad that part two has been given the go ahead.


It seems crazy it wasn’t green lit before. But these are of course unusual times.


Blade Runner 2049 bombed (no idea why, I think it's pretty good. Not as good as the original, but that would be a hell of a bar to clear) so I think they were worried that the director would make another box office failure and didn't want to commit.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 14:34:22


Post by: gorgon


 Lance845 wrote:
Atredies isn't the golden boys they present as, but they DO present that way.


I think that's a solid take...that's it's the view in the Imperium. To be fair, the Harkonnens ARE pretty brutal and take slaves, etc. So it's like the story of two guys encountering a bear in the woods. Can't outrun the bear, but you really only have to outrun the other guy.

The Harkonnens weren't always so bad. The prequel novels established the cause of the Atreides-Harkonnen feud. IIRC, the Harkonnens were actually wronged by a false accusation of cowardice by an Atreides. Seems like that just kinda poisoned their souls.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 16:19:05


Post by: Frazzled


 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there might be a compelling "unreliable narrator" argument to be made about House Harkonnen.

Essentially all we are told about them is from Atredies POV, and they look kinda weird. But from their perspective they've been put in a position where they have to sacrifice their own to regain something they already had or suffer catastrophic financial and political damage.

Not to try and frame them as the good guys, but I think it's a riff on one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


For clarity I have not seen the new movie. In the novel, the perspective is from their side as well. They are definitely bad guys, in the sense they have few morals, don't give squat about people lower than them, use political murder and torture, and have more than their share of sick puppies. So your average real life nobility... (Vive le Emperor!)


Dune @ 2021/10/28 17:24:46


Post by: Ahtman


I don't recall the reason for the outlawing of thinking machines so I'm hoping someone here does. It wasn't explained in the first book that I recall but it has been a few years. I have reread the original a few times but most of the others just once. Considering the density of the world building instead of having to get lost in a wiki I am hoping someone here remembers better than I do.


Also the Atreides did nothing wrong ever and you are all just a bunch of meanies.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 17:48:24


Post by: nels1031


 Ahtman wrote:
I don't recall the reason for the outlawing of thinking machines so I'm hoping someone here does. It wasn't explained in the first book that I recall but it has been a few years. I have reread the original a few times but most of the others just once. Considering the density of the world building instead of having to get lost in a wiki I am hoping someone here remembers better than I do.


I've only recently got into Dune stuff so could be wrong, but originally thinking machines were outlawed because they were seen as stunting human mental development. I think the author's son changed it into some sort of "Terminator-esque" AI that humanity fought a war for survival against.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 17:57:47


Post by: Sterling191


 nels1031 wrote:

I've only recently got into Dune stuff so could be wrong, but originally thinking machines were outlawed because they were seen as stunting human mental development. I think the author's son changed it into some sort of "Terminator-esque" AI that humanity fought a war for survival against.


The Butlerian Jihad existed in the original source (before Brian and KJA got off on well, everything). The specific events are left fairly vague, but it involved AI, and AI aligned humans, being overthrown in a religious crusade to "free" humanity from their "control". There are few if any concrete details from that era in the core novels, and it largely acts as an allegorical underpinning to the setting.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 19:28:23


Post by: gorgon


We should remember Brian and KJA wrote the novels after Chapterhouse based on Frank's notes. In which it's revealed that

Spoiler:
the enemy the Honored Matres fled from was the AI that the humans defeated during the Butlerian Jihad. So it would seem that Frank envisioned the machines as a fairly malevolent force. Although the ending is also pure Frank Herbert.

And it made sense then why the authors chose to tell the story of the Jihad era first (well, other than rea$on$). It familiarized readers with the ultimate villain better than just pulling an AI out of a hat in the final book or two as Frank apparently intended. Surprise!


Dune @ 2021/10/28 19:34:38


Post by: Manchu


Saw it on IMAX.

The only complaint I have is THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH OF IT.

This will be a classic.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 19:46:53


Post by: Stevefamine


Movie was 9/10 but seemed rushed. I wanted the extended 3.5 hour version like that have with LOTR

True enough to the book


Dune @ 2021/10/28 20:09:09


Post by: Manchu


As to the issue of “good guys” and “bad guys” — Dune doesn’t deal with these categories.

Frank Herbert did for science fiction what Machiavelli did for political ethics. Is it better for a prince to be loved or feared? It’s tempting to judge Leto and Vladimir by their methodologies but when judged by their motives they are not necessarily so different. Whether by inspiring loyalty pledged willingly or extorting it through terror, both houses seek to maintain their power. Looking at things this way, the crucial question is just which approach is more effective.

This is why it is so critical to Herbert’s narrative that Atreides is defeated through betrayal. Whatever moral high ground it seemingly occupies did not ultimately achieve its goal. In fact, this same appearance of nobility is what made Atreides the target for Shaddam’s schemes in the first place, given it earned too much esteem in the Landsraad.

In Paul, we have the Machiavellian ideal: to be both loved and feared — indeed, to receive love and fear together in a blend of quasi-religious reverence. But nonetheless, to what end? Nothing more than the same dream of power.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 23:25:01


Post by: gorgon


 Stevefamine wrote:
Movie was 9/10 but seemed rushed. I wanted the extended 3.5 hour version like that have with LOTR

True enough to the book


Scuttlebutt is that the banquet scene was written and maybe even filmed. So yeah…bring on that extended cut.


Dune @ 2021/10/28 23:29:30


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 gorgon wrote:
We should remember Brian and KJA wrote the novels after Chapterhouse based on Frank's notes. In which it's revealed that

Spoiler:
the enemy the Honored Matres fled from was the AI that the humans defeated during the Butlerian Jihad. So it would seem that Frank envisioned the machines as a fairly malevolent force. Although the ending is also pure Frank Herbert.

And it made sense then why the authors chose to tell the story of the Jihad era first (well, other than rea$on$). It familiarized readers with the ultimate villain better than just pulling an AI out of a hat in the final book or two as Frank apparently intended. Surprise!


That doesn’t fit in with how the Butlerian Jihad is explained in God Emperor if Dune. It was against human beings using thinking machines to control the masses and weaken human society, not against the thinking machines themselves. The AI were a tool that allowed men to enslave other men, essentially.


Dune @ 2021/10/29 00:00:29


Post by: gorgon


The prequels explain that there were humans who used AI to seize control and build an empire. However, over time an AI grew more and more powerful and eventually took over. The aforementioned humans - now cyborgs in order to avoid death from old age - eventually rebelled against the AI and failed, IIRC. The Butlerian Jihad was a revolt by humans against that same AI.

It’s all a little batgak crazy, but one could say that about any of the books after Children.

I admittedly don’t remember God Emperor classifying the Jihad as being about philosophical differences.


Dune @ 2021/10/29 04:22:07


Post by: trexmeyer


It's visually excellent and the sound design is very good. The acting is good enough. Jessica is the standout of the cast. No one else really got anything to work with to be fair.

It's extremely lacking in dialogue and exposition. I know what's going on and going to happen because I've read the novel, but the actual story shown onscreen is extremely barebones. In that sense the Lynch version is dramatically better despite being an inferior film as a whole.

Cutting out the Atreides dinner party on Arrakis was the nail in the coffin for me. It's an excellent seen to develop the political, cultural, and religious situation and it's just not there. On a whole, the movie is utterly devoid of life. It's all surface.

Edit: Did CHOAM even get mentioned by name?


Dune @ 2021/10/29 06:43:27


Post by: Jadenim


 gorgon wrote:
 Stevefamine wrote:
Movie was 9/10 but seemed rushed. I wanted the extended 3.5 hour version like that have with LOTR

True enough to the book


Scuttlebutt is that the banquet scene was written and maybe even filmed. So yeah…bring on that extended cut.


Squee if true! That’s one of my favourite passages in the book; if they make an extended version including that kind of stuff, it could be up there with LoTR in my collection.


Dune @ 2021/10/29 11:02:39


Post by: Cronch


 Manchu wrote:
As to the issue of “good guys” and “bad guys” — Dune doesn’t deal with these categories.

Frank Herbert did for science fiction what Machiavelli did for political ethics. Is it better for a prince to be loved or feared? It’s tempting to judge Leto and Vladimir by their methodologies but when judged by their motives they are not necessarily so different. Whether by inspiring loyalty pledged willingly or extorting it through terror, both houses seek to maintain their power. Looking at things this way, the crucial question is just which approach is more effective.

This is why it is so critical to Herbert’s narrative that Atreides is defeated through betrayal. Whatever moral high ground it seemingly occupies did not ultimately achieve its goal. In fact, this same appearance of nobility is what made Atreides the target for Shaddam’s schemes in the first place, given it earned too much esteem in the Landsraad.

In Paul, we have the Machiavellian ideal: to be both loved and feared — indeed, to receive love and fear together in a blend of quasi-religious reverence. But nonetheless, to what end? Nothing more than the same dream of power.

Dune, just like "the Prince" to some extent, is a cautionary tale of following charismatic leaders, so the themes from one are heavily present in the other.


Dune @ 2021/10/29 11:33:52


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Sterling191 wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:

I've only recently got into Dune stuff so could be wrong, but originally thinking machines were outlawed because they were seen as stunting human mental development. I think the author's son changed it into some sort of "Terminator-esque" AI that humanity fought a war for survival against.


The Butlerian Jihad existed in the original source (before Brian and KJA got off on well, everything). The specific events are left fairly vague, but it involved AI, and AI aligned humans, being overthrown in a religious crusade to "free" humanity from their "control". There are few if any concrete details from that era in the core novels, and it largely acts as an allegorical underpinning to the setting.


From memory the trigger was a medical service deciding to conduct abortions without reference to any people and based on its own reasoning (the ultimate American nightmare?). The Jihad was originally against the machines and people who relied on them. Trillions died as their habitats and numbers were unsustainable without AI assistance, or they were killed by the Jihadists for being seen as slaves to machines. The starting world was left behind and ironically had more tech ultimately than others where IT was more systematically destroyed. That went on to be the IX system and source of borderline tech for the Imperium.


Dune @ 2021/10/29 16:56:32


Post by: Manchu


trexmeyer wrote:
Edit: Did CHOAM even get mentioned by name?
I am generally pretty aligned with your views on films but your thoughts here are a real cringetake, especially the idea that the 1984 picture is “dramatically better.” The lack of tedious and heavy handed expository sequences alone, completely apart from anything else, make DV’s picture stand head and shoulders above the older one.

EDIT: to clarify, I say this as someone with massive affection for the ‘84 film


Dune @ 2021/10/29 21:20:26


Post by: gorgon


 Jadenim wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 Stevefamine wrote:
Movie was 9/10 but seemed rushed. I wanted the extended 3.5 hour version like that have with LOTR

True enough to the book


Scuttlebutt is that the banquet scene was written and maybe even filmed. So yeah…bring on that extended cut.


Squee if true! That’s one of my favourite passages in the book; if they make an extended version including that kind of stuff, it could be up there with LoTR in my collection.


Frank Herbert was far more gracious than he should have been to the Lynch film, but that was how he rolled. He rolled with it, a philosophy that comes up a lot in his writing, LOL. But he did say that the exclusion of the banquet scene was his big regret. It's possible that Lynch filmed it.

I think that scene is terrific, but it also helps establish some of the factions involved, what Leto is trying to do, and Paul's wisdom beyond his years. I understand why it didn't make it and I realize it'd be tricky to film...but it'd be a welcome addition to any extended cut.

Regarding CHOAM, it's more important to the book than THIS film. Which is an adaptation striving to get the themes right rather than cram in every player. And they got so many details right...many of which you can miss. It was on the second viewing when I noticed Stilgar's Fremen drawing their own blood before sheathing their crysknives...as is proper if you haven't drawn it from someone else.



Dune @ 2021/10/29 21:47:55


Post by: Manchu


Spot on, Gorgon. DV decided to prioritize theme over setting minutia. This is why he focuses on Jessica’s internal conflicts rather than weighing down his movie with exposition about mentats, the Suk school, galactic economics, etc, etc.

Let’s not forget, the 1984 film repudiated by David Lynch begins with no less than THREE back-to-back exposition dumps. The TV cut of the film added yet another exposition dump, a voice over slide show, as a prelude.


Dune @ 2021/10/30 02:16:49


Post by: nels1031


Watched it for the third time(at least, I keep watching clips on youtube and reviews/breakdowns).

Rebecca Ferguson was amazing. She wasn’t on my radar before this movie, as most of her work isn’t my kind of thing, though I’ve been meaning to watch Doctor Sleep for awhile now. Brought so much more emotion to the table then the other, more taciturn characters just weren’t capable of bringing, like being frightened that Paul knew she was pregnant, all her doubting throughout and fears around the other Bene Gesseret women etc etc.

I can’t explain why but the scene of the throat singing priest and all of the stone faced Sardarkaur killers getting getting blessed with blood or some such really sticks in my head.

Also part of that scene was Piter De Vries. Not being too familiar with the source material (never read the books, the movie seemed too weird when I was a kid and the TV show looked like the highest budgeted High School play ever), I assumed he had a much bigger part to play based on promos for the movie. Was genuinely shocked to see him get killed when Atreides poisoned the room. Seemed like such a devious character and he gets whacked early.

Another standout scene that I felt was dope as feth was the Benet Gesseret arrival to the planet. So freaky with the chanting.


Dune @ 2021/10/30 02:24:45


Post by: Ahtman


It wasn't as bad on the big screen but when streaming it at home the Sardaurkar outfits looked like NASA space suits from a 70s B sci-fi movie/tv show.




Dune @ 2021/10/30 04:49:26


Post by: chromedog


 nels1031 wrote:


Also part of that scene was Piter De Vries. Not being too familiar with the source material (never read the books, the movie seemed too weird when I was a kid and the TV show looked like the highest budgeted High School play ever), I assumed he had a much bigger part to play based on promos for the movie. Was genuinely shocked to see him get killed when Atreides poisoned the room. Seemed like such a devious character and he gets whacked early.



Yeah, Piter bites it in the book in that part. In pretty much the same way. The interrogation of Leto by the Baron. The Baron, having the benefit of suspensors bolts for dear life. Piter, being closer to Leto, has no chance. Nobody really has a good life working for the Baron. The best they can hope for is a horrible death. The baron demands absolute loyalty from all, but displays no loyalty to anyone else. He pays obeisance to the Emperor, but he'd stab him in the throat given half a chance.


Dune @ 2021/10/30 07:28:46


Post by: Jadenim


I love that scene on Salusa Secundus; no need for lots of exposition about how terrifying and dangerous the Sardaukar are, just show them being ominous as feth!


Dune @ 2021/10/30 07:44:00


Post by: Manchu


Literally fething Aztec-esque Khornite human sacrifice blood ritual gak YESSSSS


Dune @ 2021/10/30 09:04:31


Post by: JoshInJapan


I watched the film today in a mostly empty theater (no more than 20 people, including myself). I enjoyed the heck out of it. Standouts for me include:
-The dragonfly ornithopters. I have never been able to wrap my head around a heavier-than-air machine could fly like a bird. This was, to me, a good solution.
-multi-ethnic Fremen. The book mentions that the people in the villages prefer Fremen spouses, so it would make sense that there would be a variety of features.
-All the time spent on Caladan with the Duke interacting with Paul. DUke Leto is a presence in the book, but he's more of a person here.
-Caladan itself, with the near constant rainfall, offered a lovely contrast to Arrakis.
-The balloon bombs sneaking through the shields during the invasion of Arrakis.
-All the dust. Everything is dusty and grey.

I kind of wish Thufir Hawat and Piter de Vries had gotten more development, but was pleasantly surprised at how Dr. Yueh was presented-- not the sudden betrayal, but the touchy-feely doctoring. As written, he comes across as a pill-pusher, but in the movie he's presented as another heightened human, which I thought was really cool.

I have a day off to myself in about a week, and may well go again.


Dune @ 2021/10/30 12:34:38


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Jadenim wrote:
I struggle to even class the Fremen as “good guys” definitely the underdogs, but a brutal, utilitarian society that’s big on death cults, mortal combat and religious war hardly counts as “good”.


That reads remarkably like the current default argument of colonial apologism. I don't know what that implies about Dune as political commentary.


Spoiler:
It implies Dune was written in the fifties? While the Fremen society isn't one I'd want to live in, or even encourage, before meeting Paul, their ambitions were essentially isolationist. They wanted to make Arrakis green, and for the rest of the Imperium to go away. It was only after the mighty whitey Paul turned up that they considered looking outwards and became the force of destruction they became.

I'm not sure what Frank Herbert's view on the Fremen (and by extension, the populations of Arabia, the middle east and Afghanistan) were, but it was pretty clear that their society had been made what it is in the novels by outside interference - slavery on various planets before arriving on Arrakis, and the religious interference of the Bene Gesserit. If ou want to reduce Dune to a political allegory, I'd say it's that exploiting the people of Arabia and Mesopotamia for oil won't end well. I'd say he was pretty spot on there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JoshInJapan wrote:
I watched the film today in a mostly empty theater (no more than 20 people, including myself). I enjoyed the heck out of it. Standouts for me include:
-The dragonfly ornithopters. I have never been able to wrap my head around a heavier-than-air machine could fly like a bird. This was, to me, a good solution


Visually, I thought they looked cool, but not quite how I pictured them from the books; IIRC they're described as having jet engines as well as the wings. I've always pictured them as using the wings for lift and the engines for thrust, with the wings being much more mechanically complex than aircraft wings. But that's my problem, not the film's.


Dune @ 2021/10/30 17:49:56


Post by: Formosa




Spoiler:
I'm not sure what Frank Herbert's view on the Fremen (and by extension, the populations of Arabia, the middle east and Afghanistan) were, but it was pretty clear that their society had been made what it is in the novels by outside interference - slavery on various planets before arriving on Arrakis, and the religious interference of the Bene Gesserit. If ou want to reduce Dune to a political allegory, I'd say it's that exploiting the people of Arabia and Mesopotamia for oil won't end well. I'd say he was pretty spot on there.





Herbert said himself that its not a white saviour story as such because its a warning not to blindly follow messianic people and blindly trust their words, look at the horrors unleashed because of Paul and the decisions he made, we could learn a lot by not zealously following a cause and demagogues that push them, the book it anti government, religion, powerful institutions and movements.

"Don't trust leaders to always be right"
Frank Herbert




Dune @ 2021/10/30 18:08:17


Post by: gorgon


 AndrewGPaul wrote:


Visually, I thought they looked cool, but not quite how I pictured them from the books; IIRC they're described as having jet engines as well as the wings. I've always pictured them as using the wings for lift and the engines for thrust, with the wings being much more mechanically complex than aircraft wings. But that's my problem, not the film's.


In the sandstorm, Paul retracts the wing and fires the engines to climb through the storm. IIRC


Dune @ 2021/10/30 18:12:22


Post by: Lance845


 gorgon wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:


Visually, I thought they looked cool, but not quite how I pictured them from the books; IIRC they're described as having jet engines as well as the wings. I've always pictured them as using the wings for lift and the engines for thrust, with the wings being much more mechanically complex than aircraft wings. But that's my problem, not the film's.


In the sandstorm, Paul retracts the wing and fires the engines to climb through the storm. IIRC


You do RC.


Dune @ 2021/10/30 18:38:24


Post by: El Torro


I watched Dune in the cinema today. Probably everything that could be said about the film has already been said in the last 7 pages but I figure I might as well throw in my opinion. Because, well, why not?

For me what struck me most about this film when comparing it to the first half of the 1984 version was that this film simply feels less epic. A lot of the scenes are very close up, with just one or two people in the shot. Some of the big conmparisons seem obvious to me when comparing the two films side by side, this film just seems a lot smaller. The most glaring comparison:

Spoiler:
When the Harkonnens attack the Atreides. The raid was just much less grandiose in this film.


I just felt that ViIleneuve could have made more with the material, with the events that transpire in this section.

I was also not convinced too much by Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica. Not sure exactly why. Perhaps it's because I felt that the role in the 1984 version was played so well the version we saw in this film didn't live up to it.

Speaking of specific actors, I thought Jason Mamoa was fine. Not the strongest actor in the film, but he didn't stick out as a problem for me. Perhaps he could have played the role in a less "Mamoa-like" way, but he got the job done. Overall I felt that the casting was good enough, though some characters (Jessica as mentioned, also Duke Leto) were not played with the same gravitas as in the 1984 film. A lot has been said about Skarsgard's version of the Baron. I thought he was fine, not necessarily better than the 1984 version of him though.

The next observation I will put in spoiler tags:



Spoiler:
It was a shame not to see the Emperor at all in this film. His early scenes (including the opening scene) in the 1984 version are some of my favourite parts and I felt that a trick was missed by not having the top down view that he had in that film. No doubt he'll be making an appearance in Part Two.



However nit picking aside I did enjoy the film. I think it's about as good a version as we could have hoped for, all these years after the first film. I think a lot of my concerns come from the fact that I really like the 1984 version (especially the first half) and I'm conscious that Villeneuve wasn't trying to remake that film, he was making his own adaptation of the book. I'm relatively confident as well that when we're eventually able to watch both films back to back it will make for very satisfying viewing. I'm very happy that Part Two has been greenlit already, my nerd rage would be strong if that film wasn't in the works.



Dune @ 2021/10/30 21:15:14


Post by: cygnnus


Spoilered just in case someone’s reading this by accident and doesn’t want any spoilers…

Spoiler:


I didn’t mind the Dr. Kynes gender-swap. Kynes’ gender was irrelevant in the book, so the change was really not an issue to me. What I didn’t like as much was the change in how she died. They missed a chance to introduce the whole Shai-hulud life cycle, the Water of Life, and the Spice Blow background by just having her be stabbed and then swallowed by a Shai-Hulud.

Wasn’t really a fan of the armor suits, especially for the Fremen. I never envisioned them as wearing more than stilsuits.

I also thought the actress playing Lady Jessica over-acted the role from time to time. The Lady Jessica a full-on bloody Bene Gesserit. She should not be weeping and sobbing that much.

Not really a fair criticism, but every time I saw Beast Raban, I kept thinking to my self “why is Drax in this movie”? Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho didn’t cause quite the same reaction for me as David Bautista did... But in Bautista’s defense, he’s otherwise a perfect casting choice. He certainly looks the part…

Similarly, I didn’t like how they depicted the physical mark of Mentats’ use of Sapho. I kept expecting Jeff Goldblume or Benicio Del Toro to show up…

Oh, and were is Feyd Rautha? Or Irina? And no mention of the Family Atomics? That might make for a fairly deus ex machina finish if they suddenly introduce them.

And for that matter, I always thought of the shield wall as a natural barrier not a man-made one. But that might either be me misreading the book or my memory of the old Dune board game, which quickly replaced Risk as our family go-to family game when it came out, and how its map of Arrakis depicted the Shield Wall.

What I definitely was not a fan of was the audio in the iMax theater we saw it in. WAAAY to loud on the loud sounds and WAAAY to quite on the soft sounds. Distractingly annoyingly so. But that might be an iMax thing

That was also amplified by some of the jump cuts. Made it really hard to follow things, even knowing the book…

Finally, there were times when I really wanted the movie to move on. More than a few shots were just longer than they needed to be for me.



Still, all in all, I really liked it. I was never a fan of the Lynch version. Glad to see a big screen adaption that tries to be true to the source material. Will definitely see the sequel when it comes out!

Valete,

JohnS




Dune @ 2021/10/30 21:41:17


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Quick quote from Herbert…

"I conceived of a long novel, the whole trilogy as one book about the messianic convulsions that periodically overtake us. Demagogues, fanatics, con-game artists, the innocent and the not-so-innocent bystanders-all were to have a part in the drama. This grows from my theory that superheroes are disastrous for humankind. Even if we find a real hero (whatever-or whoever-that may be), eventually fallible mortals take over the power structure that always comes into being around such a leader.

This, then, was one of my themes for Dune: Don't give over all of your critical faculties to people in power, no matter how admirable those people may appear to be. Beneath the hero's facade you will find a human being who makes human mistakes. Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero.

It is demonstrable that power structures tend to attract people who want power for the sake of power and that a significant proportion of such people are imbalanced-in a word, insane.

That was the beginning. Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster."

-Frank Herbert, on creation of Dune


Dune @ 2021/10/30 23:37:21


Post by: warboss


That explanation is for people who look beyond the superficial and ideology so basically lost on those making the complaint.


Dune @ 2021/10/31 01:04:09


Post by: gorgon


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Quick quote from Herbert…

"I conceived of a long novel, the whole trilogy as one book about the messianic convulsions that periodically overtake us. Demagogues, fanatics, con-game artists, the innocent and the not-so-innocent bystanders-all were to have a part in the drama. This grows from my theory that superheroes are disastrous for humankind. Even if we find a real hero (whatever-or whoever-that may be), eventually fallible mortals take over the power structure that always comes into being around such a leader.

This, then, was one of my themes for Dune: Don't give over all of your critical faculties to people in power, no matter how admirable those people may appear to be. Beneath the hero's facade you will find a human being who makes human mistakes. Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero.

It is demonstrable that power structures tend to attract people who want power for the sake of power and that a significant proportion of such people are imbalanced-in a word, insane.

That was the beginning. Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster."

-Frank Herbert, on creation of Dune


Well, fortunately the world left that danger in the dust a long time ago.


Dune @ 2021/10/31 21:22:15


Post by: Cronch


Finally got to watch it, I love it. Never seen the 1984 movie, so my only other frame of reference (beyond the books) was the early 2000s miniseries and video games.

The brutalist tech design is a curious one, but I did love how high-tech it looked without going for the ipod aesthetic for the spaceships, compared to the more utilitarian arrakis vehicles.

Overall I had a very good time with the movie. Strangely, the points raised about it not being "epic" sound weird to me, because to me, Dune was never really "epic"? Even the big fights always read like small, confusing melees instead of any sort huge armies clashing in the book, because we focus on a handful of characters, so the movie fit what I already had in mind in this regard.


Dune @ 2021/10/31 21:32:27


Post by: Tamereth


Saw it today. Great film over all, but at times the pacing seemed off. As others have said a few scenes just lingered on a visual for a few seconds longer than they should have.
I also felt some of the weirdness of the universe had been left out. The navigators and the need for using spice to travel between worlds is skipped over completely.
Could also have given us the emperor a bit, to show the political scheming that triggered the whole story.
I do love that they go the show don’t tell route, but wonder if that’s the problem. The stuff that was too hard/involved to show was just left out instead.



Dune @ 2021/10/31 22:48:03


Post by: Lance845


 Tamereth wrote:
Saw it today. Great film over all, but at times the pacing seemed off. As others have said a few scenes just lingered on a visual for a few seconds longer than they should have.
I also felt some of the weirdness of the universe had been left out. The navigators and the need for using spice to travel between worlds is skipped over completely.
Could also have given us the emperor a bit, to show the political scheming that triggered the whole story.
I do love that they go the show don’t tell route, but wonder if that’s the problem. The stuff that was too hard/involved to show was just left out instead.



Well, they DO show some of the mid teir navigators when the emperors delegation shows up to ritually give Arrakis on Calladan. They were the ones in orange smoke filled fully sealed suits. Orange smoke filled because they were filled with Malange. Granted... NONE of that was explained. But as you said, they showed instead of telling. It was there for those that read the books.



Dune @ 2021/10/31 23:13:00


Post by: chromedog


 Tamereth wrote:
Saw it today. Great film over all, but at times the pacing seemed off. As others have said a few scenes just lingered on a visual for a few seconds longer than they should have.
I also felt some of the weirdness of the universe had been left out. The navigators and the need for using spice to travel between worlds is skipped over completely.
Could also have given us the emperor a bit, to show the political scheming that triggered the whole story.
I do love that they go the show don’t tell route, but wonder if that’s the problem. The stuff that was too hard/involved to show was just left out instead.



The spice isn't needed for space travel, just for ACCURATE space travel.
The spice extends life, expands the consciousness and in some, allows prescience. It's also addictive and once addicted, you must HAVE the spice, or you die.
The drive system of the highliners is what folds space - the navigators use the spice prescience to 'see' the safest way to plot the exit point, not for the travel itself.


Dune @ 2021/10/31 23:16:36


Post by: Overread


 chromedog wrote:
 Tamereth wrote:
Saw it today. Great film over all, but at times the pacing seemed off. As others have said a few scenes just lingered on a visual for a few seconds longer than they should have.
I also felt some of the weirdness of the universe had been left out. The navigators and the need for using spice to travel between worlds is skipped over completely.
Could also have given us the emperor a bit, to show the political scheming that triggered the whole story.
I do love that they go the show don’t tell route, but wonder if that’s the problem. The stuff that was too hard/involved to show was just left out instead.



The spice isn't needed for space travel, just for ACCURATE space travel.
The spice extends life, expands the consciousness and in some, allows prescience. It's also addictive and once addicted, you must HAVE the spice, or you die.
The drive system of the highliners is what folds space - the navigators use the spice prescience to 'see' the safest way to plot the exit point, not for the travel itself.



I think the thing is without Spice, Space Travel is basically super dangerous to the point where it becomes almost unsustainable at the rate at which the Empire relies on it at that point in time.
I'd say it means that whilst spice isn't part of the folding engine; its part of the whole package of space travel.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 10:28:31


Post by: Pacific


My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote? It also had to be an inordinately rich gift by the Emperor to the Atreidies to get them to leave Caladan and then make themselves vulnerable in doing so.

Went to see the film yesterday and WOW. What a truly outstanding piece of film making. I first read the books when I was a teenager and it was almost as if the characters in the film had been plucked from my head, it so closely matched my imagination and conception of them. Everything about it; the casting, the cinematography (the visuals, audio and score), the pacing but most importantly perhaps the script and storytelling. There was a good reason that Dune had been considered unfilmable for many years, with only David Lynch having the pre-requisite level of insanity and then I think his attempt giving creators and studios cold feet for many years. There is just so much exposition, so much going on behind the character's eyelids, and a really rich sci-fi universe full of made-up terminology and concepts; for me the chief success of Dune is that it managed to convey these concepts to complete newbies successfully. I went to the film with someone who hadn't read the books, hadn't seen the Lynch film or TV series, and yet pretty much understood all of it and was drawn into the story and universe (think pretty much the only thing I had to explain was why they must FEAR THE GOM JABBAR!) Therefore I can kind of forgive some of the omissions; the mentions of spice for space travel, the use of mentats etc. as I think the film managed the balancing act of capturing the essence of the books (and portraying them oh so beautifully) while still keeping it palatable for people unfamiliar with the story.

I will say my film of the year so far, and I'm super glad that they have green-lit the second part as it would have been an utter travesty if Villeneuve wasn't given a chance to finish the story.

Out of interest has anyone seen it in both standard viewing and IMAX and if so is it worth seeing it in the 3D format?


Dune @ 2021/11/01 11:33:56


Post by: Sterling191


 Pacific wrote:
My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote? It also had to be an inordinately rich gift by the Emperor to the Atreidies to get them to leave Caladan and then make themselves vulnerable in doing so.


It's necessary in that it allows Holtzmann effect driven travel to be sustainable. Without it you can still fold space (the engines work with or without a Navigator), but you'll die a large percentage of the time (Frank doesn't give a percentage in the novels, but it's high enough that the Imperium adopted Navigators as the primary method of interstellar travel and literally structured its entire society around that mode of transit).


Dune @ 2021/11/01 12:07:13


Post by: Overread


It's not just the safety, its also that the various houses and Empire clearly operates with a high degree of inter-planetary trade. They have a whole planet they use for a prison.


There's clearly a high amount of reliance and interconnectivity between the houses and worlds. As a result if suddenly space travel became insanely costly and dangerous that would shut down all that casual travel. Suddenly the Empire cannot function as it does. That way of life ends and many worlds might crumble and suffer huge issues. Even agricultural worlds might suffer if materials, fuels, resources and machines couldn't be imported to harvest etc... whilst heavily industrial or marginal worlds might have mass starvation.



Spice is essential for safe, reliable space travel and maintaining the vast intergalactic empire as it is.

They might fight over who controls it, but ultimately everyone has to play the same game.

Spoiler:
That's part of Paul's major element in becoming the leader of the Fremen. It's not just a vector for getting revenge, but also changes the Fremen's nature of their uprising. They were more than happy to just shut down spice production and kick everyone off their world. They had no part in the greater empire outside of their world and were content with surviving on their world. Paul, esp in latter books, builds on that by taking the Fremen off world on his crusade, I think in part a bid to give them interests outside of Arrakis.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 13:52:04


Post by: ccs


 Pacific wrote:
My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote?


Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....


Dune @ 2021/11/01 14:01:21


Post by: Dreadwinter


Spice is found in other places besides Arrakis.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 14:04:35


Post by: Sterling191


 Dreadwinter wrote:
Spice is found in other places besides Arrakis.


Not in 10,191 (or anytime soon thereafter). You don't see alternatives to Rakis until the post-God Emperor days, and never before it.

ccs wrote:

Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....


Pre-Guild space travel was noted (in Frank's usually nebulous way) to be significantly slower, more dangerous and unreliable. The discovery of Spice and the abilities it added allowed the formation of the Known Universe.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 14:11:09


Post by: Jadenim


There’s also the fact that once someone starts using spice other, similar, substances don’t work; this is specifically mentioned in relation to the BG, but I would assume it affects the guild too.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 18:22:39


Post by: Chillreaper


Prior to the Butlerian Jihad, were AIs used to navigate?

I've only read the original 6 books so far, so I really can't remember the timeline regarding the use of spice and the issues with the machines.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 18:38:23


Post by: Sterling191


 Chillreaper wrote:
Prior to the Butlerian Jihad, were AIs used to navigate?

I've only read the original 6 books so far, so I really can't remember the timeline regarding the use of spice and the issues with the machines.


Frank doesn't define when it was invented, though it's heavily implied that pre-Guild spaceflight used a different method than spacefolding. KJA writes spacefolding (and about 90% of the other tech and traditions that the original novels depend on) as products of the Great Revolt.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 19:09:44


Post by: Jadenim


 Chillreaper wrote:
Prior to the Butlerian Jihad, were AIs used to navigate?

I've only read the original 6 books so far, so I really can't remember the timeline regarding the use of spice and the issues with the machines.


I think so, yes. Or at least computers, rather than full on AI necessarily. Would also explain the distance / speed limitation; a computer fed sufficient data can calculate whether your course is likely to be safe, but the data you use will be limited by the speed of light. The further you go, the more out-of-date your data will, until you reach a point where you’re essentially flying blind. However a navigator cheats by looking into the future and seeing whether if you go that way you live.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 20:39:26


Post by: Insectum7


I left the theater dissapointed, but still want to go back and see it again. My feelings when I left the theater were mostly that I'd mostly watched a series of concept art pieces set to a constant Hans Zimmer "BWAAGGGGHHHHHHHHHH" drone. The noise of it was distracting.

I feel like the movie could have done a lot more with the 2.5 hrs it was given, and it would have helped.

I SUPER appreciated:
Spoiler:
How the duel at the end turns out. Paul forsees that he is to die, but instead kills his opponent and is bewildered. That's a great omen for the reluctant butcher he's gonna turn out to be.


Happy the second one is greenlit, I like DV as a director a lot. I hope the second one is better.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 21:13:21


Post by: AegisGrimm


 Jadenim wrote:
 Chillreaper wrote:
Prior to the Butlerian Jihad, were AIs used to navigate?

I've only read the original 6 books so far, so I really can't remember the timeline regarding the use of spice and the issues with the machines.


I think so, yes. Or at least computers, rather than full on AI necessarily. Would also explain the distance / speed limitation; a computer fed sufficient data can calculate whether your course is likely to be safe, but the data you use will be limited by the speed of light. The further you go, the more out-of-date your data will, until you reach a point where you’re essentially flying blind. However a navigator cheats by looking into the future and seeing whether if you go that way you live.


Pretty much. Before and during the era of the Butlerian Jihad, I think I remember that it's explained that even the most conservative version of FTL travel has about a 10% loss-rate for ships. Kind of a bad thing if you are travelling as a military flotilla to attack somewhere, and your commander has a 1 in 10 chance of never getting there.

The only good way to travel safely was to have AI ships constantly travelling the known space updating all the AI copies of the "master" AI that then got used for a basis for where everything was "sitting" in every system so things didn't get hit by incoming ships.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 21:34:06


Post by: gorgon


They do mention in the film that spice is needed for navigation.


Dune @ 2021/11/01 23:49:42


Post by: Kanluwen


 Chillreaper wrote:
Prior to the Butlerian Jihad, were AIs used to navigate?

I've only read the original 6 books so far, so I really can't remember the timeline regarding the use of spice and the issues with the machines.

Can't comment on the original 6 books, but in Brian+Kevin's Butlerian Jihad stuff?

The spice was required for the nascent Navigator gene to properly be expressed within the whole Holtzman field stuff. Prior to that, travel was done the slow way...or once the foldspace engines were a thing, it was a crapshoot where you'd hope for the best.


Dune @ 2021/11/02 04:17:34


Post by: JoshInJapan


 cygnnus wrote:
Spoilered just in case someone’s reading this by accident and doesn’t want any spoilers…

I also thought the actress playing Lady Jessica over-acted the role from time to time. The Lady Jessica a full-on bloody Bene Gesserit. She should not be weeping and sobbing that much.

Valete,

JohnS



Was she really weeping and sobbing? I mean, the actress was, but was there ever anyone else in the shot? I kind of assumed that she was feeling these really intense emotions, but using her BG training to mask her feelings and get stuff done.


Dune @ 2021/11/02 07:18:00


Post by: Jadenim


I agree; I’ve just started re-reading the book and Jessica is quite emotional, it’s just she controls it and/or hides when she needs to. Which is actually the point of BG training. They’re not Vulcans who suppress everything, they just need to be in control and able to act.


Dune @ 2021/11/02 08:55:10


Post by: Cronch


The problem with showing "stoic, in control" characters is...really damn boring. Books can go into detail about internal feelings, movies can't exactly do that.


Dune @ 2021/11/02 10:13:56


Post by: ccs


Sterling191 wrote:


ccs wrote:

Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....


Pre-Guild space travel was noted (in Frank's usually nebulous way) to be significantly slower, more dangerous and unreliable. The discovery of Spice and the abilities it added allowed the formation of the Known Universe.


Yeah, like I said, not absolutely necessary.


Dune @ 2021/11/02 11:15:16


Post by: Pacific


It depends what your definition of 'absolutely necessary' is though ccs. GPS systems aren't 'absolutely necessary' for modern flight and sea shipping control, both of those modes of transport will function without them, but it would make the widespread use of flight and shipping trade impracticable and cause the world's economy to collapse.

The impression I get from Dune is that it would be the same if the Guild lost access to Spice - I assume the network and control by the Emperor, the Great Houses etc. would fail. And whoever controls that spice holds a massive hammer over everyone else.


Dune @ 2021/11/02 11:16:55


Post by: Sterling191


 Pacific wrote:

The impression I get from Dune is that it would be the same if the Guild lost access to Spice - I assume the network and control by the Emperor, the Great Houses etc. would fail. And whoever controls that spice holds a massive hammer over everyone else.


God Emperor Spoilers:

Spoiler:
The above is literally what happens later in the timeline to catalyze The Scattering and cement Leto II's Golden Path for Humanity. Everything goes to gak because he systematically and deliberately designs the mechanisms of the Known Universe to fail catastrophically and all at once


Dune @ 2021/11/02 20:19:27


Post by: gorgon


 Jadenim wrote:
I agree; I’ve just started re-reading the book and Jessica is quite emotional, it’s just she controls it and/or hides when she needs to. Which is actually the point of BG training. They’re not Vulcans who suppress everything, they just need to be in control and able to act.


She also isn't a Reverend Mother yet, and that is a pretty important distinction since 'Motherhood' comes with Other Memory. Which would change someone quite a bit.


Dune @ 2021/11/03 14:26:06


Post by: Easy E


 JoshInJapan wrote:
 cygnnus wrote:
Spoilered just in case someone’s reading this by accident and doesn’t want any spoilers…

I also thought the actress playing Lady Jessica over-acted the role from time to time. The Lady Jessica a full-on bloody Bene Gesserit. She should not be weeping and sobbing that much.

Valete,

JohnS



Was she really weeping and sobbing? I mean, the actress was, but was there ever anyone else in the shot? I kind of assumed that she was feeling these really intense emotions, but using her BG training to mask her feelings and get stuff done.


This is a key point. Whenever she cried or showed emotion, she was alone. Her mask could come down and let the viewers in on the human side, without voice-over inner monologues.


Dune @ 2021/11/03 22:49:47


Post by: flamingkillamajig


I watched the Dune movie last night. I think it's a pretty good movie but i watched it on Kast (a group movie watching site) and the framerate of the movie was so awful it was like somebody had a 56k modem or something terrible to run it on. That or one of those sketchy 3rd party sites where i have to worry about getting a virus.

So basically instead of watching it in glorious IMAX with great speakers i had super bad framerate and poor headphones....woo.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 12:02:44


Post by: the_scotsman


OK, so I watched the film last night and I want to check with folks regarding my memories of having read the book (a few years ago) vs how things were portrayed in the film, and how they affect internal logic.

My overall review is: maybe Villaneuve will produce two versions of the film, the "Scotsman Cut" and the "Insectum Cut" and insectum can have 90 minutes of dialogue and plot and I can have whatever seven hours of just literally every establishing shot and scene of weird shown-not-told stuff happening in this wild science fiction universe with no need to follow who anybody is or be told anything that's going on. I would LOVE a purely conceptual, non-hollywood version of this movie. The things I generally most disliked

Spoiler:
Was basically any time they had to grapple with the fact that someone might not have read Dune, and they add some extra expository dialogue in there. Because while I felt like the actor playing Paul was pretty solid when it came to Paul's actions and lines from the story, when he was for example experiencing the visions and then they cut to him having to explain essentially to the auience what was going on, he got a little...Anakin from Episode 2/Kylo Ren. "YOU BENE GESSERIT MADE ME A FREAK!!!" and then just continue the scene right after as if nothing happened had big "NOT JUST THE MEN BUT THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN TOO" energy to me.


And then the other big thing that might entirely be in my head but just made it REALLY difficult to establish internal consistency was

Spoiler:
Everything involving shields.

To my memory, and please, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I seem to recall that (one of) the reasons for the anachronistic combat in the setting is that shields are this "almost perfect technology" that essentially set warfare back to the medieval ages. Like any kind of projectile, any kind of gun or bomb or even a fething arrow would just be effortlessly turned aside, and the only thing other than fighting a guy with a fething sword you could do would be to fire a laser at one, and that was like mutually assured destruction, the resulting explosion would ALWAYS kill the person firing the laser as well as the person with the shield. That's why everyones using swords and daggers and old-timey medieval poisoning tricks and gak. And when in the novel the harkonnens hit them, they in some way did something crazy tricky and unheard of by disabling the shields surrounding Arrakis, and the fact that they brought some artillery to bear was this crazy, unheard-of thing. When I read the books I was literally envisioning them as like, 21st century rusty old antiques. And the only reason the little bug drone in the beginning was a threat to Paul is because he had his shield off...there was probably some reason why people didnt just always have the shields on, but I dont remember what it was. IDK. If my smartphone stopped bullets and explosions from killing me I'd probably carry it around with me...exactly as much as I carry it around now, which is 100% of the time, I wouldn't take it off frequenly in perilous situations or when I was messily eating a feast while gloating over my naked political nemesis.

However in Dune the film it seemed like there were essentially analogues to literally every piece of modern technological weaponry designed to get through shields. Shields in Dune the film seem to be "if someone shoots you with a gun or you get hit by an explosion, you will get a nice blue-then-red sparkly effect and a single split second for a dramatic facial expression or for dramatic tension to build before the thing gets through your shield and kills you."

And it kind of..makes all the sword fighting seem a bit silly? Like dont get me wrong, this is not a technology that stands up to much sustained scrutiny. Obviously if these things were invented people would do what's shown in the movie and design weaponry that shoots out and slows down when it encounters a shield, and then just keeps going afterwards, we're talking about a hyper-technological science fiction setting here that managed to invent shields in the first place.

But in the movie you literally have this big ambush scene where the bad guys are fething nuking them from orbit, using what seem to be highly, HIGHLY effective at destroying shields bombs that we see are both capable of blasting straight through the shields on the atriedes spaceships AND killing the atreides soldiers as they march bravely out of their bunker in their pajamas waving swords at the space ships...but then the space ships just LAND? and the guys get out? And start fighting them with the swords? I literally said out loud "Well that was SPORTING of them!" when I was watching it.


And one more thing that maybe I'm not remembering correctly from the book but

Spoiler:
Were the harkonnens always...um....Orks? They seemed like they were weird orks, except that one guy who was I guess an extra from Monty Pythons Flying Circus who wanted to violate paul's mom. It was very strange for him to switch from HUBUGGUDA GROWLY GROWL GROMPLY GRUMBLE to "OOOOh I like a spot of noble highborn ladie tea and krumpet m'lud 'ows your auntie say no more say no more"

i feel like as a science fiction film maker you should make a decision up front whether youre going to go with "everyone speaks the language the film is in, dont question it, its fine" or "everyone speaks alien languages and we have subtitles." dont cross the streams.


And also, though this is 100 billion percent on Dune, the novel, rather than the director of this new movie, but

Spoiler:
The Sardaukar essentially get immediately Stormtrooper Effect'd out of being any kind of plausible threat at all, immediately. "We are the emperor's blades...those he points at DIEEEE! THE MOST ELITE SOLDIERS CAPABLE OF KILLING ANYONE except one guy with a knife in a hallway with no cover at all. Yeah this armor if mostly for decoration honestly, it is not only ineffective at stopping knives but also a guy will literally punch one of us with our shield on and it will super dramatically knock us to the ground so he can kill us no problem. Don't know why we wear it!"

I dont know why movies do this honestly. It would have cost them nothing, nothing at all for the very first Sardaukar to absolutely shred Jason Momoa in a SECOND, and then they start trying to cut down the door with a laser beam. You could have so easily established these guys as a legitimate threat - just show the Harkonnen troopers instead of the Sardaukar in all the vision scenes where its like 'the fremen are scary good soldiers!' This is supposed to be Film #1 in at least a two-film series, you should be trying to leave us with the impression of "oh man, how are our heroes going to deal with THESE GUYS?" Every fight with a Sardaukar in movie number 1 should have been just, instant death.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 12:23:55


Post by: The_Real_Chris


On Sardaukar - they are elite. They are all elite. Other houses might have a regiment of comparable troops. Those guys can fight toe to toe with equal numbers... but you other house troops just die and the Sardaukar outnumber your elites.

Sword masters are the people who train your elite troops. They are a cut above even Sardaukar. A space marine officer compared to a space marine. The Atriedes almost unheard of 2 swordmasters (many houses had zero) was a key enabling factor for their house troops to be so well trained and organised and part of why the emperor saw them as a growing threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have yet to see the film but assume the good doctor disables the shields as per the book? Houses still have artillery and missiles as you can use them to scatter formations of troops and use them on non shielded targets like peasants houses, factories or whale pens.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 13:08:01


Post by: AduroT


I did wonder what the point of the shields was when everything seemed to just go right thru them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, the doctor mentions dropping the base shields, but all the ships in the yard still has shields and the bad guys were dropping bombs on those no problem.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 13:17:42


Post by: Cronch


The bombs were parachuted to go down super-slow to go thru shields, if the base had their defenses up, they'd presumably be shot down without any trouble.

The whole point of the shields was to have swordfights cause the author thought they were neat, there's no deeper meaning behind them.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 13:37:23


Post by: gorgon


Those bombs would also not have been much threat had they gotten the ships in the air. This is where Yueh downing the comms systems probably looms large.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 13:52:08


Post by: AduroT


It would just mean more if the shields were ever shown saving someone’s life, but the only time they seemed at all effective were during the training session. Oh, wait, there Was one time where a bullet pressed up against a shield and the dude then swatted it aside with his sword.

Picking nits, but the worms were very conveniently sized. Like there’s a worm that needs to eat a harvester, and it’s mouth is just large enough for it. Later there’s a handful of people who need to get eaten, and the nearby worm is neatly just large enough that the diameter of its mouth perfectly encompasses the formation these people happened to by standing in.

Overall I did quite enjoy it, the shields just seemed very confusing and inconsistent.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 14:04:25


Post by: Easy E


**********SPOILERS AHEAD*****************


Spoiler:
You may recall, there are two places where the slow dart gun is used in the movie. One hits Leto inbetween the shoulder blades, and he struggles to reach it as it is burrowing through his shield, and ultimately fails. The other is Duncan Idaho is shot by a Sardaukar, but he uses his blade to deflect the dart out of his shield before it burrows through.

The book mentions there are dart guns that can penetrate the shield by using a slow dart. That is how Duncan Idaho is killed in the book. It is where in the movie, the Sardaukar shoots him, but in the movie he deflects it and survives longer, IIRC.

In the book, they also mention that the Harkonnen's use air power to destroy the space port in their surprise attack. We see this in both the 1984 and new version as well. However, in the new version, they add in the slow dropping bombs penetrating the shields of the ships on the ground. I do not recall that in the book, but I also read it a long time ago.


Were the Sardaukar using a laser late in the film? I think that was that man-portable beam thing, but I am not sure. I do not recall any of that scene from the book. Was it a new addition?


Dune @ 2021/11/05 16:19:23


Post by: Elemental


ccs wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote?


Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....


I always wondered, who was the first person who decided to try and eat dried sandworm dung?


Dune @ 2021/11/05 16:36:16


Post by: Sterling191


 Easy E wrote:

Were the Sardaukar using a laser late in the film? I think that was that man-portable beam thing, but I am not sure. I do not recall any of that scene from the book. Was it a new addition?


Yes, that was a Lasgun and yes they do appear in the books.

Sadly we did not get to see one cook off on a shield, but that should hopefully come in part 2.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 17:38:03


Post by: trexmeyer


The_Real_Chris wrote:
On Sardaukar - they are elite. They are all elite. Other houses might have a regiment of comparable troops. Those guys can fight toe to toe with equal numbers... but you other house troops just die and the Sardaukar outnumber your elites.


Hebert's handling of military matters and combat is probably the weakest point of Dune.

Fremen supposedly thrash Sardaukar. Because they grew up on a harsher planet.
Paul beats an above-average Fremen (Jamis) so badly that Stilgar and other observers think Paul is toying with him. Paul here is a skinny 15-year old described as being small for his size with significant training, but why would his training be vastly superior to that of the Sardaukar? It's not suggested in the text that his skill or victory is related to his Kwisatz Hiderach status. The passage in question specifically points to his training.

Gurney and Idaho (just two men) supposedly training the Atreidis force to being on a cut below the Sardaukar. The Sardaukar are an institution. They've been doing this for some time and yet two men can just train up a bunch of randoms to a near-comparable level in a few years? What?

The internal logic is questionable at best, but the larger issue is that this has zero relation to how warfare or individual combat skills are developed in the real world. Historically, more "barbaric" cultures may have produced better one on one warriors, but they have almost always faltered against trained and disciplined soldiers from more "civilized" societies. The zealotry aspect of the Sardaukar and Fremen (God created Arrakis to train the faithful) is rooted in reality, but the actual soldiering is not.

Even if the Fremen were superior, a 5 to 1 kill ratio is obscenely absurd. Hebert completely failed to make the Sardaukar seem elite. They're an army of Worfs that exist solely for the Fremen to punch out while onlookers marvel at their greatness.



Dune @ 2021/11/05 17:55:40


Post by: The_Real_Chris


trexmeyer wrote:

Fremen supposedly thrash Sardaukar. Because they grew up on a harsher planet.


Well, and they disable their shields with the destruction of the shield wall - Sardaukar are shield trained fighters, Fremen aren't and ensure the battle is fought on their terms.

Paul beats an above-average Fremen (Jamis) so badly that Stilgar and other observers think Paul is toying with him. Paul here is a skinny 15-year old described as being small for his size with significant training, but why would his training be vastly superior to that of the Sardaukar? It's not suggested in the text that his skill or victory is related to his Kwisatz Hiderach status. The passage in question specifically points to his training.

Gurney and Idaho (just two men) supposedly training the Atreidis force to being on a cut below the Sardaukar. The Sardaukar are an institution. They've been doing this for some time and yet two men can just train up a bunch of randoms to a near-comparable level in a few years? What?


You miss the 'amazing people' trope in Dune. A swordmaster is a peerless military man, in a galaxy of trillions there are only a handfull - not every great house has one who can claim that title. Thufir Hawat is a master Mentat - a group of people superior to supercomputers, he is above them and comparable to an advanced AI. Bene Gesserit witches can control their bodies own biological processes and control others with their voice and training. Etc etc. Almost the regularisation of superhero level people. Atriedes had through various means collected some of the most amazing examples of these rare people together in one house and it was having an outsized effect. Plus of course spending massive amount of Solaris. The few years is also i think decades in the books, remember everyone important has massively extended lifespans.



Dune @ 2021/11/05 18:34:42


Post by: trexmeyer


And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?


Dune @ 2021/11/05 19:46:56


Post by: The_Real_Chris


trexmeyer wrote:
And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?


He has received one on one training from the greatest warriors known to man at that period of time. In Dune logic that makes you amazing.

Your criticism seemed to be based on real world consequences not the internal logic of the novels/world (and whether or not it is consistent).

Adding in BG and Mentats (and the master mentat) was to further highlight the use of supermen in common roles - their powers far outstrip the rest of humanity and it was an attempt to further illustrate the the point around their being this superior impossibly skilled class, compared to even elites like Sardaukar who themselves rip through the Atriedes infantry and I believe in the book ultimately collapse a mountain on them? But they are still chaff before the *insert superhumans here*.

Paul is of course the ultimate superman of his age, having the capacity to absorb Mentat, Swordmaster and BG training, while normally only the most gifted could understand one discipline.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 20:46:36


Post by: nels1031


Meant to ask this days ago, but what the hell was that thing in the Harkonnen's throneroom that the Bene Gesseret lady dismissed?


Dune @ 2021/11/05 20:53:09


Post by: Thargrim


 nels1031 wrote:
Meant to ask this days ago, but what the hell was that thing in the Harkonnen's throneroom that the Bene Gesseret lady dismissed?


Bene Tleilax creation maybe, there is also a fan theory that it is made up of parts of Yueh's wife...among others.


Dune @ 2021/11/05 20:55:33


Post by: gorgon


 Elemental wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote?


Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....


I always wondered, who was the first person who decided to try and eat dried sandworm dung?


Well, it looks and smells/tastes like cinnamon, so it's not like it's unpleasant. There are Earth lifeforms that people eat that would seem like much harder sells unless one was very, very hungry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:
And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?


He has received one on one training from the greatest warriors known to man at that period of time. In Dune logic that makes you amazing.

Your criticism seemed to be based on real world consequences not the internal logic of the novels/world (and whether or not it is consistent).

Adding in BG and Mentats (and the master mentat) was to further highlight the use of supermen in common roles - their powers far outstrip the rest of humanity and it was an attempt to further illustrate the the point around their being this superior impossibly skilled class, compared to even elites like Sardaukar who themselves rip through the Atriedes infantry and I believe in the book ultimately collapse a mountain on them? But they are still chaff before the *insert superhumans here*.

Paul is of course the ultimate superman of his age, having the capacity to absorb Mentat, Swordmaster and BG training, while normally only the most gifted could understand one discipline.


The Fremen were also taught the weirding way, which added skill and polish to their ferociousness, zealotry and desert fighting experience. They weren't just sand barbarians at the time of the battle for Arrakeen. Sure, we can argue about the appropriate amount of time needed for real-world advanced martial arts to proliferate across a fighting force. But that seems like placing unusual demands upon a piece of fantasy literature. It would probably be better for people to just say they don't like the story -- which is fine and honest -- rather than engage in what seems like bad-faith arguments about story details.




Dune @ 2021/11/05 23:08:02


Post by: trexmeyer


The problem is that Dune is ostensibly science fiction. Gorgon just referred to it as fantasy. I agree that it is essentially a fantasy novel dressed up as science fiction.

If it's not science fiction, then the Sardaukar getting their asses beat by old men, women, and children at the end of the first novel doesn't matter. The Fremen are awesome, Arrakis made them awesome, and Paul made them even more awesome. I think it's incredibly lazy writing to introduce a force that is supposedly elite and then have them be routinely curbstomped. Ultimately, the Sardauker don't matter to the greater story. They're just a plot device. Edit: Specifically a plot device to illuminate how awesome the Fremen are in comparison. The entire novel people shake at the word Sardaukar and marvel at the fact Fremen can beat them.

If it is science fiction, then the Fremen v Sardauker power gap is illogical and absurd. As are most things described about prescience, genetic memory, and various BG body control abilities, i.e. the weirding way, the voice, etc. It's absurd because if one human is capable of something, thousands more are capable of coming extremely close. Hell, we even get introduced to a failed Kwisatz Hiderach in the novel.

A real world example. A specific tribe from Kenya dominates marathons. They almost always win at this point. The difference between the current Men's WR, set by a Kenyan, and the Australian Record, a WR set in 1981, is just seven minutes. It's a huge gap at that level, but the percentile difference is small. It's just 5 percent faster. That's with an ideal background, skeletal structure, possible genetic lung advantage, etc. The gaps between the best of humanity across the globe are small. The idea that some group like the Fremen would exist and be forged into fighting elite by their living conditions is absurd by all real world standards.

Herbert was inspired to write Dune by an article on ecology. Ecology is a major theme of the novel. One aspect of that theme is how ecology shapes people. In this case, he is arguing that Arrakis has shaped the Fremen to be harder men than any others in the galaxy. I agree, and it's painfully obvious, that ecology shapes culture and some cultures have more of a warrior ethos than others, but the power gap he is describing for close quarters combat has never existed in history and never will between the actual "elite" forces.

Edit: I can dislike an aspect of a story and still like the story as a whole. Dune has some very interesting aspects to it concerning the nature of prophecy, cultural norms, religion, elitism, etc. The military aspect of the story is amateurish.



Dune @ 2021/11/05 23:38:05


Post by: Da Boss


The concept of the shields and shield fighting is mostly just because Herbert wanted to have cool sword fights in his sci fi book. It is silly, but it's a conceit for a certain tone.

I think it's more disappointing that the choreography for those fights was a bit limp overall. Just gangs of people running at each other in boring costumes and then blue and red flashes. Nothing much to write home about. Not much of a fan of Zak Snyder, but he could have directed those fight scenes in a much more dynamic and interesting way to show off how you have to come in slow and only accelerate at the last second to get through the shield, because as it was done it really makes it look like it's either random or that the shields are just overcome with force rather than skill.

The action in the movie was generally pretty dull. Only the fight at the end was any good I thought. Luckily, it's not really an action movie and it does a lot of other stuff well enough that I still enjoyed the movie a lot.


Dune @ 2021/11/06 08:00:24


Post by: Jadenim


There is mention in the appendices that the Sardaukar have regressed somewhat from their peak by being arrogant, complacent and not actually having fought any battles in a long while; they’re still better than House conscripts, but not an army that have been literally fighting a war for their lives for best part of a century.


Dune @ 2021/11/06 17:03:46


Post by: Cronch


In the end, Dune is not military sci-fi. It doesn't focus on it, it's only purpose is to further the plot and underscore the themes. it's science-fiction in the same way War of the Worlds is- it describes a future/alternative reality, but it does not strive to make a 100% accurate prediction of how everything would work, cause..that makes for very bad stories.


Dune @ 2021/11/06 23:59:45


Post by: ccs


 Pacific wrote:
It depends what your definition of 'absolutely necessary' is though ccs.


There's only 1 definition. It's a simple Yes/No equation.
Either you can navigate through space without spice (YES), or you cannot (NO).
And we already know that in the Dune universe the answer is (YES). It is slow & dangerous.

The spice is simply a massive advantage. Hence why controlling it is so important.




Dune @ 2021/11/07 00:43:47


Post by: Overread


ccs wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
It depends what your definition of 'absolutely necessary' is though ccs.


There's only 1 definition. It's a simple Yes/No equation.
Either you can navigate through space without spice (YES), or you cannot (NO).
And we already know that in the Dune universe the answer is (YES). It is slow & dangerous.

The spice is simply a massive advantage. Hence why controlling it is so important.




It's a yes/no question but it goes deeper if you want it too

Basically within the Dune setting for most of the political powers and many of the various worlds, its not a case of "well we can go back to slower space travel." The world are so heavily interconnected that it would destroy most systems of governance, economies, trade, food supplies, resources, materials - everything pretty much breaks. Some worlds would come out ahead; others would collapse very swiftly.

In broad terms its a functional no if you want to retain the system of governance and trade that's established within the setting at the time.

About the only faction we meet in Dune who doesn't share that feeling, are the Fremen. They have no ideals of leaving their world and generally consider outsiders to be nothing but problems. They are very self reliant.


Spice, at the time of Dune, isn't simply a massive advantage, its the foundation upon which everything runs. It would be like modern day humans losing electricity. Yes we'd survive, but almost everything would collapse very swiftly.


Dune @ 2021/11/07 01:34:54


Post by: flamingkillamajig


I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.


Dune @ 2021/11/07 02:01:23


Post by: Voss


 Jadenim wrote:
There is mention in the appendices that the Sardaukar have regressed somewhat from their peak by being arrogant, complacent and not actually having fought any battles in a long while; they’re still better than House conscripts, but not an army that have been literally fighting a war for their lives for best part of a century.


Sardaukar basically Janissaries (with an absurd training premise- that if you train criminals and psychopaths in hellish conditions, you get better soldiers rather than psychological damaged and broken ones. They're also on various drugs and unleashed on populations, much like the original concept for Space Marines, which is where GW got the inspiration from. Herbert at some point describes his take on the psychology of it, that you basically buy their loyalty by assuring them they're superior at it was all worth it to create the best of the best... which works, but only to a point.) And like the Janissaries, they were exceptional for their time, and had little political power, but the structures involved fell apart over time. We don't ever see that point, but its the logical conclusion.

Herbert also chases the hellscape=better soldier logic at the end of Dune, where Paul promises the Emperor that he'll make Salusa Secundus (or whatever their training world is called) a beautiful place where only soft things grow (or something like that), reinforcing the idea that hard planets make better soldiers and soft places make for poor ones. [Something not reflected in any modern military organization- people trained in the various hellholes around the world are fairly crap soldiers (when they can even be called that).


Cronch wrote:
In the end, Dune is not military sci-fi. It doesn't focus on it, it's only purpose is to further the plot and underscore the themes. it's science-fiction in the same way War of the Worlds is- it describes a future/alternative reality, but it does not strive to make a 100% accurate prediction of how everything would work, cause..that makes for very bad stories.

Basically. Pure 'science' fiction is largely a myth, anyway. At some point they author starts fudging some aspect of the ships, or combat or the social sciences (cough...psychohistory...cough) or whatever.
Mostly I think the 'bad stories' aspect comes in when the writers starts focusing on the technobabble over human relationships. There's only so many pages of mythical engine & space travel predictions before the whole thing turns to slurry.
[And that's before physicists and whatever point out why that concept wouldn't even work).


Dune @ 2021/11/07 02:07:07


Post by: trexmeyer


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.


That's a fairly apt comparison. Anabolic steroids can increase muscular size and strength with minimal effort, particularly with heavier doses and specific steroids. You would get the best results with proper nutrition, recovery, and training. Other steroids are used to benefit recovery. Those are the ones abused more in skill sports where sheer mass is a negative (weight classes for fighting, sprinting, endurance sports), and strength is of secondary concern. It's widely accepted by those familiar with steroids and their applications that special forces are making use of some steroids to some degree. Mainly because it wouldn't make sense to not use that advantage.

Spice is shown to improve prescience and bodily awareness, but that is specifically with BG/Mentat training. The Fremen could potentially get some benefit from spice without specific training, but that's not explicitly stated in the books.

None of that really addresses raid at the end of the book.

Spoiler:
The Sardaukar launch a raid deep within Fremen territory and are beaten back by old men, women, and children.


Dune @ 2021/11/07 02:10:25


Post by: Voss


Pretty sure there's something about burning the attackers with ship engines or something, not that the kids and old folks are physically beating them off with sticks. More a trap/ambush.
Anyway, that's the least important aspect of that entire reference- its there for the
Spoiler:
killing of Paul's kid


Dune @ 2021/11/07 02:58:09


Post by: chromedog


Fremen don't so much "regularly use" Spice, it's just IN everything around them. Their coffee has it, their food has it, they have fabrics made from it (spicecloth was a thing in the books). They're fed it from the first time they can have it after being born. It's also why they had no dreams of leaving Arrakis. The spice is an addictive poison, one must always have it after a certain point, or it the lack of it kills you, so leaving Arrakis wasn't really an option for most of them.



Dune @ 2021/11/07 07:12:53


Post by: flamingkillamajig


I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I prefer my heroes to have a decent match from time to time as long as the heroes themselves are decently trained. Otherwise they should look like a fumbling idiot.

——-

The 2nd time I watched Dune we thought the traitorous doctors plan made no sense. He gave the person he betrayed a powerful poison to use at any time. Had he not been killed right before it’s possible he’d have died with just about everybody in that room save the duke because of superpowers and plot armor and that’s if they don’t find out he set to betray them too. It was like 2 separate plans that don’t work together (I’m gonna save my wife and put the lynchpin to a separate plan in the hands of someone that kinda wants me dead for my betrayal. This plan could never fail. Forget the possibility I’ll likely die anyway if the duke lets me live somehow because then my master would just gas us all to death) unless it was plan b if the duke killed him but why would your previous master accept something that doesn’t benefit him. Anyway that plan was Badly thought out. Still fun tho. Maybe the books handle it in a less stupid way.


Dune @ 2021/11/07 08:06:38


Post by: Jadenim


In the book Yueh is fairly convinced that his wife is already dead, but he wants to make absolutely sure that she is free from Piter’s torture; he never intended to live (/knew that he wasn’t going to survive), he just wanted to ensure his wife wasn’t suffering anymore at any cost.


Dune @ 2021/11/07 11:17:52


Post by: Baragash


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.


I suggest you brace yourself for the transition from book 3 to book 4.


Dune @ 2021/11/07 22:31:35


Post by: flamingkillamajig


 Baragash wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.


I suggest you brace yourself for the transition from book 3 to book 4.


That's unfortunate. At least in the first movie i sorta get some of the things. For instance Paul's training could've killed him multiple times and even when finally getting the upper hand he only managed to tie with his trainer ("joined him in death if it was real"). So he clearly has training and had the Voice used on him and manipulated him as well as being sort of in the middle of the schemes of many others and being used by others.

In Star Wars i think that was part of the problem when they went in without training and were super special. I suppose i should get a bit annoyed at Jedi Academy for that but despite being mary sue or gary stu. If the good guy is always super powerful at least we should make their friends, family and romantic interests vulnerable to attacks from enemies. That or if they're super strong maybe make them someone that can be out-thought through planning.

Ofc we have the other problem where if everybody beats the main character then they take away what makes the main character so good.

--------

Anyway i'm liking this so far. Poor Paul is in over his head through much of this. He wants to go on adventures but he doesn't want to be a Chosen One and he definitely doesn't like the fanatical devotion he will eventually have with the Fremen.

--------

As far as criticism goes my cousin and I were curious how a Head Medical Doctor was able to sabotage things he likely had no knowledge of even if he had access to them (shields and communications). In the Matrix (another chosen one story) for example the betrayal made more sense at least to me. I'm willing to excuse the Doctor's sabotage somewhat due to possibly having other people help him through this.

What really bugged me however was the movie's version of the plan. He gave the person he betrayed a special tooth with poison gas so even if he was to live and get what he wanted then why would Paul's father let either the Baron or the Doctor to live. Something about the way the movie laid out the plan felt incredibly stupid like it wasn't thought out very well. Typically the medical doctor should've had an end goal where he got what he wanted. Like it'd have made more sense if the Doctor had the poison gas tooth in his mouth in case he was killed by the Baron. In that case the Doctor would've had full control over that discussion instead of screwing himself regardless of what decision was made.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 00:02:47


Post by: trexmeyer


Eh. Security measures for Lords and their blood family are pretty intensive. The movie does a good job of depicting that. Yueh knew that he couldn't get close to the Baron. He never would, he wasn't that trusted. It wasn't unreasonable to expect that the Baron would gloat over a drugged-up Leto and the scene makes some more sense in the novel as he and de Vries are also interrogating Leto about the escape of Paul and Jessica.

I think the weaker part of the betrayal is that Yueh was stupid enough to go along with it. His wife was either dead or going to be killed. There is zero possibility that she is ever restored to him. In the novel he accepts that, but wants his revenge so desperately that he betrays House Atreides anyway.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 00:11:57


Post by: JoshInJapan


I read a fan theory somewhere (maybe Quora? maybe Dakka? I honestly don't remember) that it wasn't the Harkonnens who broke the Suk conditioning, but Dr. Yueh's wife. She used BG techniques to bind Yueh more closely to her, and that is why the thought of her being tortured was enough to get him to betray the Atreides. This is just fan theory, though, and not canon.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 01:16:49


Post by: the_scotsman


 gorgon wrote:
 Elemental wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
My understanding was that the spice was absolutely necessary for space travel, hence the 'he who controls the spice, controls the universe' quote?


Obviously not absolutely necessary. Otherwise humans would have never have reached Arrakis, found the Spice, & brought it back.
But oh boy, once they did....


I always wondered, who was the first person who decided to try and eat dried sandworm dung?


Well, it looks and smells/tastes like cinnamon, so it's not like it's unpleasant. There are Earth lifeforms that people eat that would seem like much harder sells unless one was very, very hungry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:
And Paul is trained as a shield fighter as well. What of it?

I didn't miss the trope. Criticism of a work doesn't necessarily mean that someone fails to understand it.

And why are you explaining the BG and Mentats?


He has received one on one training from the greatest warriors known to man at that period of time. In Dune logic that makes you amazing.

Your criticism seemed to be based on real world consequences not the internal logic of the novels/world (and whether or not it is consistent).

Adding in BG and Mentats (and the master mentat) was to further highlight the use of supermen in common roles - their powers far outstrip the rest of humanity and it was an attempt to further illustrate the the point around their being this superior impossibly skilled class, compared to even elites like Sardaukar who themselves rip through the Atriedes infantry and I believe in the book ultimately collapse a mountain on them? But they are still chaff before the *insert superhumans here*.

Paul is of course the ultimate superman of his age, having the capacity to absorb Mentat, Swordmaster and BG training, while normally only the most gifted could understand one discipline.


The Fremen were also taught the weirding way, which added skill and polish to their ferociousness, zealotry and desert fighting experience. They weren't just sand barbarians at the time of the battle for Arrakeen. Sure, we can argue about the appropriate amount of time needed for real-world advanced martial arts to proliferate across a fighting force. But that seems like placing unusual demands upon a piece of fantasy literature. It would probably be better for people to just say they don't like the story -- which is fine and honest -- rather than engage in what seems like bad-faith arguments about story details.




I don't think it's a bad faith criticism to make note of the fact that the story lacks any kind of credible antagonist(s) that seem to pose any threat to the main character's infinite, instant perfection in seemingly any area. Certainly, people didn't think that was any kind of a bad faith criticism when applying it to another well-known fantasy space opera series that came out recently...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Baragash wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.


I suggest you brace yourself for the transition from book 3 to book 4.


That's unfortunate. At least in the first movie i sorta get some of the things. For instance Paul's training could've killed him multiple times and even when finally getting the upper hand he only managed to tie with his trainer ("joined him in death if it was real"). So he clearly has training and had the Voice used on him and manipulated him as well as being sort of in the middle of the schemes of many others and being used by others.

In Star Wars i think that was part of the problem when they went in without training and were super special. I suppose i should get a bit annoyed at Jedi Academy for that but despite being mary sue or gary stu. If the good guy is always super powerful at least we should make their friends, family and romantic interests vulnerable to attacks from enemies. That or if they're super strong maybe make them someone that can be out-thought through planning.

Ofc we have the other problem where if everybody beats the main character then they take away what makes the main character so good.

--------

Anyway i'm liking this so far. Poor Paul is in over his head through much of this. He wants to go on adventures but he doesn't want to be a Chosen One and he definitely doesn't like the fanatical devotion he will eventually have with the Fremen.

--------

As far as criticism goes my cousin and I were curious how a Head Medical Doctor was able to sabotage things he likely had no knowledge of even if he had access to them (shields and communications). In the Matrix (another chosen one story) for example the betrayal made more sense at least to me. I'm willing to excuse the Doctor's sabotage somewhat due to possibly having other people help him through this.

What really bugged me however was the movie's version of the plan. He gave the person he betrayed a special tooth with poison gas so even if he was to live and get what he wanted then why would Paul's father let either the Baron or the Doctor to live. Something about the way the movie laid out the plan felt incredibly stupid like it wasn't thought out very well. Typically the medical doctor should've had an end goal where he got what he wanted. Like it'd have made more sense if the Doctor had the poison gas tooth in his mouth in case he was killed by the Baron. In that case the Doctor would've had full control over that discussion instead of screwing himself regardless of what decision was made.


He knew his wife was dead. The end goal was killing the Baron, which he knew he would have no chance to get close enough to do...

Although....wait...in the movie, didn't the baron fething slit his throat HIMSELF? that's a departure if so, lol, and kind of defeats him having to go thru with betraying his buddy...I'm fairly certain in the book the whole reason was "I'll sacrifice my best bud the duke because i'm pretty sure the baron's hatred of him is personal enough that he'll want to get close and gloat, whereas with me he's 100% just going to have one of his minions stab me and I wont get within 100 feet"

In the movie version, he might as well have just thrown a whole grill of poison teeth into his own mouth and just been like "heck, guess Ill wait for the baron to come right up to me and slit my throat!"


Dune @ 2021/11/08 01:35:21


Post by: Lance845


 the_scotsman wrote:

I don't think it's a bad faith criticism to make note of the fact that the story lacks any kind of credible antagonist(s) that seem to pose any threat to the main character's infinite, instant perfection in seemingly any area. Certainly, people didn't think that was any kind of a bad faith criticism when applying it to another well-known fantasy space opera series that came out recently...


Yeah but THAT one had tits. And the sheer volume in the difference in criticism says everything.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 01:39:54


Post by: the_scotsman


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.


Sure, I guess, but that also doesn't stop you from preserving even a tiny bit of dramatic tension by not portraying the Sardaukar as complete dinguses from the get-go.

You could literally have just added a few more of the basic Harkonnen Ork Boyz in to the various scenes where the Sardaukar are getting cartoonishly merked and you could have easily preserved the dramatic tension of "how is Paul going to use his magical white boy protagonist energy to whip his society of ethnic pals into fighting shape to take these Big Bad Asses on?"

they literally pulled the same exact gak the new star wars movie did with their ultra-badass "NOT YOUR DADDY'S STORMTROOPERS" opening scene where they like...shoot some unarmed villagers or something, and then they just go back to being slapstick mooks who die in 2 seconds.

Sure, maybe Karl Drogo is the best sword fighter in the whole galaxy super ultra badass 1 in trillions very very good at sword, but he's got one little knife, a shield, and nothing and he's up against an unlimited number of dudes wearing full space armor. Just use the Harkonnen ork looking melon-fethers as the disposable mooks and then have a team of Sardaukar come in fighting in some kind of elaborate roman legionnaire style formation where there's absolutely no way one guy with no protection is getting any kind of a hand on him, and carve him up.

Then you could just go on with the rest of the scene with them starting to cut through the door with a lasgun and them having to run away.

maybe just once I want to see a suit of space armor in a movie be effective at anything. In Rogue 1 a stormtrooper literally gets bonked in the helmet with a stick and, apparently, dies.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 02:58:52


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Sigh. Does a topic have to always come back to political reasons?

Rei (spelling?) wasn't trained even a bit. Paul was trained. Also i don't think Rei ever really lost a fight excepting that one time with Snoke and he died immediately after from a stupid thing he should've seen coming via mind reading his apprentice.

People can be ok with female protagonists like Lara Croft and Alita. Part of it makes more sense like if they were trained before.

You guys are totally spot on with the weirdness of the Fremen though if using ancient shield tactics. Ofc in current day ambush and hit and run tactics do handle really elite forces though that is with modern weapons.

I assume this would make infinitely more sense if Fremen were more of a raiding force that hit weak positions with minimal enemies rather than built up shield wall armies.

----

I have my criticism of Dune as a movie like the scene i mentioned.

----

Back for a bit. Something my cousin pointed out is the defenses against the enemy ships were slow while the enemy had all those fast missiles. Not to mention when they decided to land and fight the sword wielding atreides in hand to hand rather than missile them to death from the safety of their ships. It’s not like the bloodthirsty baddies were worried about friendly fire or civilian casualties. Perhaps they wanted to know if Paul, his mom and father were all dead or would be dead soon and confirming someone blown into hundreds of pieces along with many others becomes hard to tell if they got him. Ofc if they’ve given up pursuit of Paul for being lost in a sandstorm then why not also scrutinize something this much.

Also why didn’t they fully prepare for an invasion? Did they merely think assassination attempts were all the enemy would do?

I had fun with the movie but It wasn’t a military tactics masterpiece. I suppose it couldn’t be as bad as the elves jumping the dwarves spear line in the 3rd hobbit movie without the enemy charge impaling the elves on the dwarves spears somehow.

Maybe I’m more forgiving because I’ve only seen one dune movie rather than 9 episodes of Star Wars or 6 of lord of the rings and the hobbit.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 05:53:24


Post by: chromedog


There were rules for feuds between the major houses in the Dune universe. Kanly. These rules restricted which measures could be used (Going against these restrictions could see sanctions brought on your house by the Landsraad - which was comprised of all the great houses).

Things like using nukes against your opponent (forbidden by convention - and sanctions could be applied from the guild for transgressions).
Paul pulls a "technicality" when he uses the Atreides nukes against the shield wall in the book. Although the Harkonnens likely had troops in the mountain areas, he used the nukes against a natural formation, so as to let a major sandstorm through into the city. The static forces in the storm neutralised the Emperor's forces shields.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 07:56:59


Post by: Jadenim


1) They didn’t have time to prepare for a full invasion; they knew they were going to be attacked, but didn’t expect it that quickly or that heavily.

2) In the books it is explained (better) that the Guild charge an extortionate amount for troop movements, because open warfare is bad for business. So inter-house conflicts are generally limited to raids and skirmishes. The book explicitly states that they are expecting no more than 10 brigades in a full attack (and a brigade is defined as 3,000 men, so 30,000 total), which would presumably be focused on attacking the House directly (basically a decapitation strike, rather than a general invasion).

Instead, the Harkonnens rock up with over 100 brigades, 300,000 men. It’s just a totally overwhelming force. This probably also partly explains the fear of the Sardaukar; the emperor has legions of Sardaukar, with a legion being 10 brigades, so not only are they much better trained and disciplined than normal troops, they are also a much, much bigger force. Again, the book explicitly states that they are only matched by all of the Houses allied against them together.

That’s also why the emperor feared the Atreides, because Duncan, Gurney and Thufir had trained their forces to be equal to the Sardaukar and they were starting to expand them, plus Leto was politically uniting the other Houses, to a point where he might have been able to challenge for the throne.


Dune @ 2021/11/08 16:03:41


Post by: Hankovitch


trexmeyer wrote:

Fremen supposedly thrash Sardaukar. Because they grew up on a harsher planet.
Paul beats an above-average Fremen (Jamis) so badly that Stilgar and other observers think Paul is toying with him. Paul here is a skinny 15-year old described as being small for his size with significant training, but why would his training be vastly superior to that of the Sardaukar? It's not suggested in the text that his skill or victory is related to his Kwisatz Hiderach status. The passage in question specifically points to his training.

Gurney and Idaho (just two men) supposedly training the Atreidis force to being on a cut below the Sardaukar. The Sardaukar are an institution. They've been doing this for some time and yet two men can just train up a bunch of randoms to a near-comparable level in a few years? What?

The internal logic is questionable at best, but the larger issue is that this has zero relation to how warfare or individual combat skills are developed in the real world. Historically, more "barbaric" cultures may have produced better one on one warriors, but they have almost always faltered against trained and disciplined soldiers from more "civilized" societies. The zealotry aspect of the Sardaukar and Fremen (God created Arrakis to train the faithful) is rooted in reality, but the actual soldiering is not.

Even if the Fremen were superior, a 5 to 1 kill ratio is obscenely absurd. Hebert completely failed to make the Sardaukar seem elite. They're an army of Worfs that exist solely for the Fremen to punch out while onlookers marvel at their greatness.


The Sardaukar are badasses because they come from a death-world prison planet, and to a lesser degree because of their training and indoctrination. Firemen are badasses because they come from a death-world desert planet, and become moreso because Paul and Jessica start teaching them the Weirding Way. Actual combat skills are considered kind of a baseline level of equal competence among the various armies--at least, where their front-line combatants are concerned. Individual combat master's like Duncan and Gurney are a significant cut above.

The entire theme of Dune us the idea of how humanity can change itself--can force itself to evolve. One method is through selective, intensive breeding programs over thousands of years--the Bene Gesserit. Another is biological change brought on mostly by Spice, which creates everything from Mentats to Guild Navigators. Another is super-dooper physical training, hypnotism, etc--the Weirding Way. And, as above, the physical and societal pressures of living on harsh, alien worlds.

Whether you "feel it" or not, the narrative focal point is that Paul, a product of selective breeding and Weirding training, unleashes a planet full of death-world warrior fanatics, who have been amplified by Weirding Way training which the Bene Gesserit never wanted to lose contol of, all while siezing control of the most important commodity in the universe. And that's how he destroys an empire and changes the course of humanity.

Not because his army is better at knife fighting than all the other knife fighters.



Dune @ 2021/11/08 17:19:22


Post by: gorgon


 Jadenim wrote:
1) They didn’t have time to prepare for a full invasion; they knew they were going to be attacked, but didn’t expect it that quickly or that heavily.

2) In the books it is explained (better) that the Guild charge an extortionate amount for troop movements, because open warfare is bad for business. So inter-house conflicts are generally limited to raids and skirmishes. The book explicitly states that they are expecting no more than 10 brigades in a full attack (and a brigade is defined as 3,000 men, so 30,000 total), which would presumably be focused on attacking the House directly (basically a decapitation strike, rather than a general invasion).

Instead, the Harkonnens rock up with over 100 brigades, 300,000 men. It’s just a totally overwhelming force. This probably also partly explains the fear of the Sardaukar; the emperor has legions of Sardaukar, with a legion being 10 brigades, so not only are they much better trained and disciplined than normal troops, they are also a much, much bigger force. Again, the book explicitly states that they are only matched by all of the Houses allied against them together.

That’s also why the emperor feared the Atreides, because Duncan, Gurney and Thufir had trained their forces to be equal to the Sardaukar and they were starting to expand them, plus Leto was politically uniting the other Houses, to a point where he might have been able to challenge for the throne.


Yes.

And in the film, the Baron says in his conversation with Rabban that the invasion was extremely costly, and that they need to start selling their spice reserves (but not too quickly) and squeeze more spice of Arrakis. We're left to presume it wiped out quite a bit of the Harkonnens' wealth, who are said in the film to be filthy rich. A lesser House probably couldn't have pulled it off. And near the beginning of the film, Thufir mentions the high cost of travel just for the ship containing the Baron's envoy and Guild representatives.

So while it's not all spelled out in detail in the movie...it is there if you pay close attention.


Dune @ 2021/11/10 13:11:55


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I prefer my heroes to have a decent match from time to time as long as the heroes themselves are decently trained. Otherwise they should look like a fumbling idiot.


Nope... One of the points of the books are superheroes really aren't. The BG get their prescient messiah, who swiftly realises as the whole of humanities future is now laid out before him, it is bounded by his imagination and predicted by his gift (if he sees it, it must come to pass). The struggle is more of the impossibility of confronting or countering such a God and ultimately it is only his plan that removes himself and the future prospect of such control over humanity again. But if he had been a more controlling figure he would have doomed humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.


Dune @ 2021/11/10 16:08:34


Post by: the_scotsman


The_Real_Chris wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I just hope Dune doesn’t go overboard in the books like Jedi and sith tend to in Star Wars or the saiyans and their enemies in dbz. Basically the powers of the Jedi or sith keep getting more absurd and in dbz random blasts of energy misdirected could destroy entire worlds. Magic space powers need a power ceiling or they become flying and time traveling space neo.

I prefer my heroes to have a decent match from time to time as long as the heroes themselves are decently trained. Otherwise they should look like a fumbling idiot.


Nope... One of the points of the books are superheroes really aren't. The BG get their prescient messiah, who swiftly realises as the whole of humanities future is now laid out before him, it is bounded by his imagination and predicted by his gift (if he sees it, it must come to pass). The struggle is more of the impossibility of confronting or countering such a God and ultimately it is only his plan that removes himself and the future prospect of such control over humanity again. But if he had been a more controlling figure he would have doomed humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.


Dune is, in essence, a story about the horror and misery inherent to being a "The Chosen One" protagonist, and honestly, that's absolutely fantastic, and the more they lean into that the better the movies will be tbh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Sigh. Does a topic have to always come back to political reasons?

Rei (spelling?) wasn't trained even a bit. Paul was trained. Also i don't think Rei ever really lost a fight excepting that one time with Snoke and he died immediately after from a stupid thing he should've seen coming via mind reading his apprentice.

People can be ok with female protagonists like Lara Croft and Alita. Part of it makes more sense like if they were trained before.

You guys are totally spot on with the weirdness of the Fremen though if using ancient shield tactics. Ofc in current day ambush and hit and run tactics do handle really elite forces though that is with modern weapons.

I assume this would make infinitely more sense if Fremen were more of a raiding force that hit weak positions with minimal enemies rather than built up shield wall armies.

----.


except that here's what we're shown between both protagonists:

One is a noble boy, physically quite skinny, who's shown to be trained by a guy who we are told by the movie is a 'great blademaster' but we know, from the conversation they have, that he's worried that things are about to 'get real' for Paul too quickly.

IN THE TRAINING SEQUENCE paul literally starts out by saying 'aw, lets not do our combat training today gurney, why dont you sing me a song instead?' and we see throughout the training that Gurney is really really worried about him. This is his LAST CHANCE to whip him into shape before he has to go out and face real life or death conflicts. The whole movie set up with the house of atreides really sets them up to be basically the same as Ned Stark in the first season of GoT: they're honorable, noble, strong, and skilled, but theyre naive to this world of ruthless profiteering and backstabbing politics where appealing to The Law gets you nowhere.

The duke and House Atreides pays for that by the end of the movie: Paul never, ever will, at least not within the plot of Dune the novel.

The setup of Rey in TFA is, by contrast, the exact opposite: She's shown to have lived an incredibly hard life, basically subsistence living and having to get into real fights with other similarly desperate people who are also basically under the thumb of the same system where they can never really earn enough to get more than their next meal. She's got lots of practical experience getting into fights, but no theoretical traditional training with a master - the thing that made Rey flawed character-wise was her ability to just get stuff that in other films required training from a master to accomplish. If she'd just had a lot of brute force like scrappy gak, I think she would have made a much better and more fun character and you could have done more with her, especially because it could have let you do something with the sequels where Rey fights and acts similarly to Luke (the other minimally-trained Jedi we've seen and also a returning character they were going to re-use) and contrast it with some of the more traditional old school prequel-style fighting that maybe Kylo Ren might have. They hinted at it, but the main problem is they didnt go far enough to show her failing at things that required discipline and subtlety, and they leaned too hard into "HE ANGURY" as the big flaw with Kylo. Like you could maybe have one of the thugs in the initial confrontation with Rey in the beginning of the movie have a robotic limb of some kind and have Rey break it to help win the fight (to show she's kind of this scrappy street fighter who does what she has to to survive) and then if you wanted to have "untrained rey vs trained but injured kylo" have her exploit his injury to get inside his superior form and beat him down with brute force.

Rey having some kind of back-alley jedi teacher who trains her in the Way of the Stick ala the old blind guy from Rogue 1, or having a cut in TFA where a cackling Palpatine explains to the audience that he has infused her with Big Chosen One Energy would not improve her character: what you actually show the audience through characters' actions in the movie is what matters and the fact that she was basically omnicompetent is what the problem with Rey and Paul alike very much is.

Paul doesnt really have a 'this is what the desert is like, little pampered noble boy' moment. He doesnt have to see the guy betray his father, or the sardaukar kill his buddy Aquaman. He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.


Dune @ 2021/11/10 17:14:21


Post by: gorgon


 the_scotsman wrote:
He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.


Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, this seems like a really bad take. The entire scene in the stilltent is about him being overwhelmed by the horrors ahead. And the Paul we see in this film has very scattershot prescience anyway. It's after he takes the Water of Life that his prescience levels up and sees things more clearly..although it also remains imperfect.

The focus of this film -- and that part of the book -- isn't about the Jihad or the Golden Path anyway. It's about the fall of House Atreides. I thought the stilltent scene was the *perfect* amount of foreshadowing to the audience. There's no need to spend any more time dealing with things that won't pay off until the next movie and the movie after that...if Messiah even happens.


Dune @ 2021/11/10 17:20:55


Post by: the_scotsman


The_Real_Chris wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.


Is this actually true? I didnt think it was, because under Paul
Spoiler:
he does eventually decide that the Fremen Jihad is a better alternative to other future paths. The whole saga of the main Dune books is essentially to "Chosen One" narratives what Akira/Shinsekai Yori is to "Superhero" narratives - that these people would be unspeakable, unimaginable horror movie monsters in real life and would effortlessly top the worst of history's monsters with the extent of the bloodshed they would cause.

Paul's eventual children are like, born fully conscious and also perfectly prescient of every instant of their lives that will roll out before them, and his...I think grandkid, or maybe also his son, transforms himself into this hideous body horror monstrosity who reigns as absolute autocrat of humanity for thousands of years and keeps making reincarnated clones of Paul's dead best friend to serve as his regent and confidant, and regresses humanity into a new age of darkness by basically ending space travel. Paul himself reigns for like 9 years but causes 67 billion casualties from his holy war.

The Fremen eventually fade from prominence in the galaxy but I think its because by book 3 the immortal god-emperor (Hey Frank Herbert can I copy your notes? Sure 40k but change enough to make it seem original) has basically turned arrakis into a jungle paradise to wipe out space travel except for by his personal....secretions...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.


Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, this seems like a really bad take. The entire scene in the stilltent is about him being overwhelmed by the horrors ahead. And the Paul we see in this film has very scattershot prescience anyway. It's after he takes the Water of Life that his prescience levels up and sees things more clearly..although it also remains imperfect.

The focus of this film -- and that part of the book -- isn't about the Jihad or the Golden Path anyway. It's about the fall of House Atreides. I thought the stilltent scene was the *perfect* amount of foreshadowing to the audience. There's no need to spend any more time dealing with things that won't pay off until the next movie and the movie after that...if Messiah even happens.


to be clear I"m not criticising the film adaptation here - as far as I remember they were pretty dang faithful throughout the events they covered - I'm criticising the source material itself. Dune the series gradually begins to portray Paul and his like in a horrific light, but it moves so slowly to do so that its easy to read just Dune and see him as just another omnicompetent Chosen One protagonist, and besides the absolutely brilliant worldbuilding which was just impossibly novel for scifi of its time thats kind of what Dune the series has to offer in terms of original, interesting story content, the steady breakdown of this particular heroic archetype.


Dune @ 2021/11/11 01:17:17


Post by: trexmeyer


Sardaukar can't commit genocide against the Fremen because the Fremen go on to launch a galaxy-wide jihad. Clearly an insignificant number of them were wiped out. The Sardaukar were trying desperately to kill them off because (in-universe) they realize Arrakis is basically Salus Secundus 2.0 and the Fremen are the new and improved Sardaukar.



Dune @ 2021/11/11 02:26:01


Post by: gorgon


 the_scotsman wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if they follow the book you will be pleased to know the Sardaukar do steadily commit genocide on the Fremen. They are amazed at taking so many casualties, something that has been unheard of for centuries, and have to adjust to fighting in an unshielded way, but community by community wipe them out. In one raid Harkonan and Sardaukar troops kill Pauls first born son.


Is this actually true? I didnt think it was, because under Paul
Spoiler:
he does eventually decide that the Fremen Jihad is a better alternative to other future paths. The whole saga of the main Dune books is essentially to "Chosen One" narratives what Akira/Shinsekai Yori is to "Superhero" narratives - that these people would be unspeakable, unimaginable horror movie monsters in real life and would effortlessly top the worst of history's monsters with the extent of the bloodshed they would cause.

Paul's eventual children are like, born fully conscious and also perfectly prescient of every instant of their lives that will roll out before them, and his...I think grandkid, or maybe also his son, transforms himself into this hideous body horror monstrosity who reigns as absolute autocrat of humanity for thousands of years and keeps making reincarnated clones of Paul's dead best friend to serve as his regent and confidant, and regresses humanity into a new age of darkness by basically ending space travel. Paul himself reigns for like 9 years but causes 67 billion casualties from his holy war.

The Fremen eventually fade from prominence in the galaxy but I think its because by book 3 the immortal god-emperor (Hey Frank Herbert can I copy your notes? Sure 40k but change enough to make it seem original) has basically turned arrakis into a jungle paradise to wipe out space travel except for by his personal....secretions...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
He also doesnt appear to deal as much with the sense of overwhelming helplessness Paul experiences with his future sight in the novel. There are a few opportunities where you could have put this in, but they didnt, and you've got another basically omnicompetent protagonist despite setting up some good potential flaws for him early on in the movie.


Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, this seems like a really bad take. The entire scene in the stilltent is about him being overwhelmed by the horrors ahead. And the Paul we see in this film has very scattershot prescience anyway. It's after he takes the Water of Life that his prescience levels up and sees things more clearly..although it also remains imperfect.

The focus of this film -- and that part of the book -- isn't about the Jihad or the Golden Path anyway. It's about the fall of House Atreides. I thought the stilltent scene was the *perfect* amount of foreshadowing to the audience. There's no need to spend any more time dealing with things that won't pay off until the next movie and the movie after that...if Messiah even happens.


to be clear I"m not criticising the film adaptation here - as far as I remember they were pretty dang faithful throughout the events they covered - I'm criticising the source material itself. Dune the series gradually begins to portray Paul and his like in a horrific light, but it moves so slowly to do so that its easy to read just Dune and see him as just another omnicompetent Chosen One protagonist, and besides the absolutely brilliant worldbuilding which was just impossibly novel for scifi of its time thats kind of what Dune the series has to offer in terms of original, interesting story content, the steady breakdown of this particular heroic archetype.


Alright, gotcha.

I think it's fair to say that Herbert wanted to build up Paul in Dune in order to make the tear down in Messiah and Children more dramatic and complete. IIRC, Herbert got into it a little with his editor who --- not knowing where Herbert wanted to go with the story -- felt like it would be stuck after the first installment with Paul anointed a superhero.

But yeah, no doubt Dune can be read very wrongly because so much of the teardown is contained in those other books. I could point to parts where Paul and Jessica are willfully taking advantage of the Fremen for their own purposes, but I think that gets papered over for a lot of readers because they see Paul and Jessica's vengeance as righteous. We could also get cynical about it and say that Dune was designed this way to hook readers, since a hero's ascent is more broadly appealing (and my unscientific polling through conversations over the years has told me that some people don't like the following books as much just because they're kind of downers compared to Dune). Again, Herbert had editors who wanted to sell books...although I think it was actually just viewed as the best way to structure the rise and fall.

One could have a good debate over who's more horrific -- Paul or Leto II. Paul is ultimately too soft-hearted to follow the Golden Path, which makes the Jihad look like a picnic but is key to humanity's survival. Leto was raised Fremen and therefore doesn't balk at doing an incredibly cruel thing in the name of survival. Humanity survives because of Leto, but talk about blood on one's hands. And I've heard about some people reading Leto very wrongly also...as if tyranny and cruelty were the point, which they were not.


Dune @ 2021/11/11 10:33:40


Post by: Overread


trexmeyer wrote:
Sardaukar can't commit genocide against the Fremen because the Fremen go on to launch a galaxy-wide jihad. Clearly an insignificant number of them were wiped out. The Sardaukar were trying desperately to kill them off because (in-universe) they realize Arrakis is basically Salus Secundus 2.0 and the Fremen are the new and improved Sardaukar.



Committing Genocide and succeeding at Genocide are two different things.
The Sardaukar along with the Harkonan very much do conduct a Genocide war on the Fremen. They target and wipe out whole settlements, attacking known population centres and civilians. Their intention is to wipe out all the Fremen. Now this doesn't work because they are unaware just how many Fremen there are and how organised they are.


Dune @ 2021/11/11 19:46:50


Post by: Azreal13


 Overread wrote:

Committing Genocide and succeeding at Genocide are two different things.


They very much aren't. Attempting genocide and succeeding would be different, but in this context committing and succeeding are synonymous.


Dune @ 2021/11/12 09:43:13


Post by: Shadow Walker


Voss wrote:
Pretty sure there's something about burning the attackers with ship engines or something, not that the kids and old folks are physically beating them off with sticks. More a trap/ambush.

Actually it is the opposite = Sardaukar were only able to escape using jet engines as the flamethrowers, otherwise overwhelmed by the old people, women and children.
Quote from the book:
“My Sardaukar used the attitudinal jets on their carrier as flame-throwers,” the Emperor said. “A move of desperation and the only thing that got them away with their three prisoners. Mark that, my dear Baron: Sardaukar forced to retreat in confusion from women and children and old men!”
It was a really silly way to show how badass the Fremen are.


Dune @ 2021/11/12 11:44:05


Post by: Overread


Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .


Dune @ 2021/11/12 12:13:29


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Overread wrote:
Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .

The Saraukar were trained killers. They had only one purpose in life = to kill in the name of their emperor. Having woman trained to defend themselves, old warriors and children teached how to survive in their harsh climate, does not explain how could they beat, almost without an effort, experienced executioner force. And yes, the Sardaukar did have some victories but the book says that there was a 5 to 1 ratio = 5 dead Sardaukar to kill 1 Fremen. It makes no sense unless you believe in that BS theory, that is also present in 40k, that harsher the conditions the better warrior you are. And the Fremen were supposed to kill Sardaukar using the mentioned ratio even before Paul and Jessica trained them in weirding ways.


Dune @ 2021/11/12 17:26:26


Post by: Easy E


.... and the rebels in Star Wars go through Stormtroopers like a hot light saber through butter even though they should not.

A lot of people have spilled a lot of ink on why. Ultimately, it comes down to "The Protagonists and their Allies Win". Trying to go beyond that is an exercise in futility.


Dune @ 2021/11/12 17:48:27


Post by: Mr Morden


 the_scotsman wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not knowledgeable on the Dune novels or previous Dune films but aren't the Fremen known for regularly using the Spice. Could that not enhance fighting ability more than any normal physical activity could? I mean steroids work. This is like super magical Space Steroids.


maybe just once I want to see a suit of space armor in a movie be effective at anything. In Rogue 1 a stormtrooper literally gets bonked in the helmet with a stick and, apparently, dies.


Its the same as modern day armour against firearms - never works in films for bad guys

Fantasy armour against anything - again never seems to deflect blows or arrows...


Dune @ 2021/11/12 19:15:41


Post by: trexmeyer


 Easy E wrote:
.... and the rebels in Star Wars go through Stormtroopers like a hot light saber through butter even though they should not.

A lot of people have spilled a lot of ink on why. Ultimately, it comes down to "The Protagonists and their Allies Win". Trying to go beyond that is an exercise in futility.


Comparing a work of pulp that began as little more than a homage to science fantasy serials and samurai flicks to what is ostensibly a serious, philosophical piece of literature strikes me as disingenuous.

That's also pretty inaccurate. In A New Hope the Imperials board and wipe out the ship easily. They also blow a planet up. In The Empire Strikes Back they crush the rebel forces on Hoth. The rebels are happy just to escape.

Faceless Rebels don't mow down faceless Imperials. If anything, the reverse is true. The lead protagonists are the ones doing the damage and even then Obi-Wan is killed, Luke loses a duel and his hand, Han Solo is captured, etc.

The Fremen don't take meaningful losses. The Atreides do.


Dune @ 2021/11/12 21:12:37


Post by: gorgon


trexmeyer wrote:
Comparing a work of pulp that began as little more than a homage to science fantasy serials and samurai flicks to what is ostensibly a serious, philosophical piece of literature strikes me as disingenuous.


I think you've answered your own question there. While I dunno that Dune is 'serious' philosophy, the author is interested in telling a science fiction story about politics and religion and ecology and adaptation...not in delivering a treatise on real-world combat scenarios. The passage in question serves to make a statement about the effects of 'home turf' and adaptation to an environment when combined with extreme religious zeal. And that's really it.

And let's remember that section is extremely vague. We could come up with different scenarios where a elite force could take heavy losses to a weaker native force, and they'd probably involve the native force using its environmental knowledge and not giving the elite but not adapted force the straight-up fight they prefer.

Besides, willing suspension of disbelief has to come into play with almost any science-fiction work, or you'll bogged down with all the fantastic details and miss the larger ideas.


Dune @ 2021/11/12 23:45:01


Post by: Overread


 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .

The Saraukar were trained killers. They had only one purpose in life = to kill in the name of their emperor. Having woman trained to defend themselves, old warriors and children teached how to survive in their harsh climate, does not explain how could they beat, almost without an effort, experienced executioner force. And yes, the Sardaukar did have some victories but the book says that there was a 5 to 1 ratio = 5 dead Sardaukar to kill 1 Fremen. It makes no sense unless you believe in that BS theory, that is also present in 40k, that harsher the conditions the better warrior you are. And the Fremen were supposed to kill Sardaukar using the mentioned ratio even before Paul and Jessica trained them in weirding ways.


In theory harsher conditions (to a point) can breed a stronger fighter, however yes fantasy/scifi often takes this simple concept into the extremes

That said Sadaukar losing to "woman, children and old men" still makes sense to me. The key is to accept that the Sadaukar, whilst highly trained warriors, were not prepared for resistance that they met. They were taken by surprise and that in turn unseated what strategy they had. I also have a vague memory that at some stage somewhere its mentioned that the Sadaukar are so feared that they've not actually had many real wars/fights in a long while. Yes their world is harsh and horrid, but they've not actually been to war against serious opposition in a long long while. Ergo the Sadaukar might be highly trained but could be more "green" than many of the Fremen who have been fighting for generations against the Empire in its various forms taking over their world.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 09:22:17


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Overread wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Not really, it shows how the Fremen are a warrior people rather than a people with warriors. So you can't just target their settlements with impunity because the women are also battle trained; their children start at a young age and they have experienced older warriors as well. Showing that they've generations of this behaviour not just a single generation raised in recent times.

It's showing how the Sardaukar went in expecting light resistance and instead got heavy resistance which force them to retreat. It's not just how bad-ass the Fremen are, its showing how they've a heavily militant culture and that you can't just expect easy victories over them.


Those same Sardaukar could (and in other cases did) succeed in wiping out settlements of Fremen. However they had to approach it differently.

The Emperor is also being bold in showing the Fremen in good light against his elite warriors to show how serious the situation is. That the Fremen uprising isn't just an annoyance but something that has serious potential to cause lasting harm .

The Saraukar were trained killers. They had only one purpose in life = to kill in the name of their emperor. Having woman trained to defend themselves, old warriors and children teached how to survive in their harsh climate, does not explain how could they beat, almost without an effort, experienced executioner force. And yes, the Sardaukar did have some victories but the book says that there was a 5 to 1 ratio = 5 dead Sardaukar to kill 1 Fremen. It makes no sense unless you believe in that BS theory, that is also present in 40k, that harsher the conditions the better warrior you are. And the Fremen were supposed to kill Sardaukar using the mentioned ratio even before Paul and Jessica trained them in weirding ways.


In theory harsher conditions (to a point) can breed a stronger fighter, however yes fantasy/scifi often takes this simple concept into the extremes

That said Sadaukar losing to "woman, children and old men" still makes sense to me. The key is to accept that the Sadaukar, whilst highly trained warriors, were not prepared for resistance that they met. They were taken by surprise and that in turn unseated what strategy they had. I also have a vague memory that at some stage somewhere its mentioned that the Sadaukar are so feared that they've not actually had many real wars/fights in a long while. Yes their world is harsh and horrid, but they've not actually been to war against serious opposition in a long long while. Ergo the Sadaukar might be highly trained but could be more "green" than many of the Fremen who have been fighting for generations against the Empire in its various forms taking over their world.

You are correct that the Sardaukar in the time of Dune are not the same as in the past. It is also mentioned that even funds for their training were cut. Still, they are above the majority of fighters in the Imperium. Also every special forces soldier, and that is what they are, when suprised by the enemy will adapt current strategy or invent new so them being totally suprised by the agression/skills of the Fremen women etc. is unlikely. It is especially silly when you remember that they were fighting Fremen since the original Harkonnen attack on the Atreides = they will have all the knowledge about how fierce the entire Fremen population is.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 10:24:45


Post by: Overread


They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 10:42:18


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Overread wrote:
They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.

Sardaukar were making pogroms of Fremen even before they left Arrakis after wiping out the Atreides so they definitely had fighting knowledge of the entire Fremen population. At the time of the battle for the Arrakis they would be fully prepered for what to expect of any Fremen camp. Also at that time they would assume a heavy resistance of every Fremen contact based simply from the experience unless of course the ones sent there were somehow the most incompetent morons. You would expect that for such an important mission the very best and suited for such an action would be selected. Being overwhelmed by the numbers is one thing but going blindly or be suprised by the obvious factors is another. For me that part of the book together with other military sections, especially ones about the Sardaukar, is simply the weak point. It is very likely caused by either the author having limited knowledge about military matters or, which is more probable, simply using the rool of cool, to show how the Arrakis breds the superior warriors.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 13:17:08


Post by: Jadenim


 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Overread wrote:
They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.

Sardaukar were making pogroms of Fremen even before they left Arrakis after wiping out the Atreides so they definitely had fighting knowledge of the entire Fremen population. At the time of the battle for the Arrakis they would be fully prepered for what to expect of any Fremen camp. Also at that time they would assume a heavy resistance of every Fremen contact based simply from the experience unless of course the ones sent there were somehow the most incompetent morons. You would expect that for such an important mission the very best and suited for such an action would be selected. Being overwhelmed by the numbers is one thing but going blindly or be suprised by the obvious factors is another. For me that part of the book together with other military sections, especially ones about the Sardaukar, is simply the weak point. It is very likely caused by either the author having limited knowledge about military matters or, which is more probable, simply using the rool of cool, to show how the Arrakis breds the superior warriors.


There’s also the fact that the original pogrom was against “normal” Fremen, where as by the battle for Arrakis Jessica and Paul have spent three years teaching them Weirding Way skills.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 14:22:27


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Jadenim wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Overread wrote:
They've fought Fremen, but I don't think they attacked settlements until after the Harkonans take over for a second time. Prior to that it was more dealing with raiding parties and the like.

Again the issue is the team went in expecting a pure slaughter. Perhaps a few warriors capable at the camp with the remainder of the core force being away.

Think of it like this they went in with 10 men against what they thought was 1 and instead ended up against 20. The numbers were against them, even with their elite training they were outnumbered and outgunned. So they retreated.

It's not that they weren't capable fighters, its that they only sent what they thought they needed to tackle a situation and it turned out to be a bigger force than they anticipated.



The key is that when they counted warriors in their scouting of the camp they didn't include the women, the children, the aged etc... They were there, but were assumed to be passive or only putting up modest resistance. Instead they were trained warriors who, not as good as prime adults nor Sadaukar on a 1-1 level; were more than capable of using their skills and greater numbers to drive out a smaller attacking force.

Sardaukar were making pogroms of Fremen even before they left Arrakis after wiping out the Atreides so they definitely had fighting knowledge of the entire Fremen population. At the time of the battle for the Arrakis they would be fully prepered for what to expect of any Fremen camp. Also at that time they would assume a heavy resistance of every Fremen contact based simply from the experience unless of course the ones sent there were somehow the most incompetent morons. You would expect that for such an important mission the very best and suited for such an action would be selected. Being overwhelmed by the numbers is one thing but going blindly or be suprised by the obvious factors is another. For me that part of the book together with other military sections, especially ones about the Sardaukar, is simply the weak point. It is very likely caused by either the author having limited knowledge about military matters or, which is more probable, simply using the rool of cool, to show how the Arrakis breds the superior warriors.


There’s also the fact that the original pogrom was against “normal” Fremen, where as by the battle for Arrakis Jessica and Paul have spent three years teaching them Weirding Way skills.

It is true, and at the same time it is another weak spot in the novel. Would it, in just 3 years, be possible to have not only all the warriors but the entire populace trained in ''magic'' martial arts to the point that even the weakest could face the best killers in the Imperium?


Dune @ 2021/11/13 15:25:40


Post by: Overread


5 seconds googling says that it takes 32 weeks to take a raw recruit and train them to marine standards. So that's well under a year.


Considering that the Fremen are already a warrior people before Paul shows up to train them and you've already got a population with experience in combat to start with. So the Weirding Way is more a style of combat rather than teaching them combat in general. So 3 years you could well train a significant portion of the population. Especially as they are already compliant and willing to train from their history so its not really a huge cultural change for them either.



Dune @ 2021/11/13 17:05:45


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Overread wrote:
5 seconds googling says that it takes 32 weeks to take a raw recruit and train them to marine standards. So that's well under a year.


Considering that the Fremen are already a warrior people before Paul shows up to train them and you've already got a population with experience in combat to start with. So the Weirding Way is more a style of combat rather than teaching them combat in general. So 3 years you could well train a significant portion of the population. Especially as they are already compliant and willing to train from their history so its not really a huge cultural change for them either.


And how many of those ''1 year marines'' will survive the first real combat vs ones that did nothing but killing since they were children? There would be no 5 to 1 ratio of kills between similary experienced fighters. And the harsh environment breeds survivors but not magically makes you a great warrior material. In real life those women, children, old warriors would at best delay the bloody minded killers sent there.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 17:14:23


Post by: trexmeyer


Having actually done USMC Boot, I want to clarify something. The physical demands are not great. I saw recruits that could barely do 5 pullups and run three miles get through it. The minimum standards are incredibly low because all branches need bodies.

Given that you say 32 weeks I assume that whatever you found was referring to SOI. That is more demanding, but I've known guys that did it that I could literally ragdoll around a basketball court. Again, the minimum standards, even for infantry, aren't terribly high. Boot Camp is really just a mental challenge + a bit of luck in avoiding injury. Oh, and no one comes out of any of the entry-level schools (boot, SOI, MCT, MOS schools) a killer unless they were already a three gun, MMA, ultramarathoner hard ass beforehand.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 23:34:04


Post by: SamusDrake


As nice as this was to see on the big screen, the 2000 mini series is miles better.

Given that it was presented in three parts, and they wanted to push the new Dune as "the next Lord of the Rings", then they should have just gone with a trilogy and been done with it.


Dune @ 2021/11/13 23:50:16


Post by: Overread


The problem is most production studios/investors really don't want to commit to 3 films at once.

Even Dune being made in 2 films was a gamble as the 2nd film wasn't green lit until after the 1st had hit the screens. Even without a pandemic messing everything up that's a huge risk.


Lord of the Rings likely only got the 3 film deal due to a lot of passion and the fact that, as a "franchise" its maintained itself for decades. IT's a very strong name to attach to something so there was a lot more trust that they could march 3 films out and get a block buster each time.


Most other film series can't do that. Even Harry Potter and Starwars films were made one after the other (something that worked to HP's favour as it meant that as the films came out the actors for the kids aged up about right for their roles - more or less). Even then they had issues - long production times come with increased risk of technology changing; the world changing; markets shifting; actors moving on/getting pregnant/suffering illness or death etc...

Giving films more time to tell their story can produce much better films because they can follow the source material and have time to develop the story. Similarly too little time or poorly paced time and you can end up with something like Avatar - technically and visually amazing - but a story that has to cut big chunks of development time to push it forward as fast as they can.


Dune @ 2021/11/14 18:23:25


Post by: SamusDrake


Not shooting the messenger( you seem a decent person, if I may say so ) but that's their problem if they choose to tackle the most worshipped science-fiction novel of all time, and promise something as big as LOTR and Star Wars. With expectations that high, there is only "the chicago way"...