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As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/05 16:54:30


Post by: ninjafiredragon


I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/05 18:36:23


Post by: Rob Lee


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.



As I understand the law in the US (and the same is likely true here in the UK) your "copied from a friend" copy is unlawful and breaks copyright laws.

Even if it is your own copy of the book, I think you'll find it's still unlawful to copy it, even for personal use unless parts of the book state otherwise.

You'll note in a GW codex that there are "can be copied for personal use" pages, or used to be, and on the back (usually) or elsewhere in the codex it specifically states the book is not allowed to be reproduced, copied, etc. etc.

If I were a TO I'd be erring on the side of caution and not allow copies such as you have to be used, to avoid any legal issues further down the line.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/05 23:54:15


Post by: solkan


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.


One of the objections you really don't have an answer for is: Prove that you haven't edited your copied codex. It wouldn't even matter if you said "I scanned and printed my codex, and left it at home."

It's pretty easy to scan, edit, then print out the book editing things to say what you want them to. So you don't have a valid copy of the book, and most tournaments are going to require you to have a valid copy of the book to play (you'll be asked to show your books when you check in).

Generally, the policy is that each player is responsible for bringing their own copies because if the tournament relied on a shared library of books, games would slow down for the inevitable "Please show me where it says that" moments during the tournament.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/05 23:58:40


Post by: ph34r


Best solution in my opinion is, bring your actual codex also. If you want a binder with just the relevant pages, bring that.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 01:33:15


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rob Lee wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I have a scanned and printed marine dex I copied from a friend, printed, laminated, and put in a binder. Have a TO who is running his first event raise his eyebrow at that, saying he was not sure if that would be allowed at bigger events. He wants his tournament's proceedings to be based off how larger events would run. So I am asking here to hear your thoughts.



As I understand the law in the US (and the same is likely true here in the UK) your "copied from a friend" copy is unlawful and breaks copyright laws. You aren't then allowed to give those out to friends though.

Even if it is your own copy of the book, I think you'll find it's still unlawful to copy it, even for personal use unless parts of the book state otherwise.

You'll note in a GW codex that there are "can be copied for personal use" pages, or used to be, and on the back (usually) or elsewhere in the codex it specifically states the book is not allowed to be reproduced, copied, etc. etc.

If I were a TO I'd be erring on the side of caution and not allow copies such as you have to be used, to avoid any legal issues further down the line.


You're correct on the "for a friend" thing, but you're allowed to make copies of your own books for your own personal use, or to change format (e.g. make a digital copy of a physical book or a physical print out of a digital book).

Wargaming is one of the areas it makes sense to make a copy for personal use, you might have bought a physical copy of a limited edition or a nice hardback book which is 100 pages with 5 pages of rules in the middle and you don't want to go dragging the book around to gaming events letting it get damaged, or maybe you just like using a tablet instead but GW's digital editions suck hairy balls.

As solkan said, one of the problems is people using it to cheat, but I feel like the massive shame you'd feel for being caught would be a deterrent as many folk have the rules/stats memorised and would call you out.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 01:59:52


Post by: Rob Lee


The question isn't about whether or not people might cheat or if other players would call you out on it and I'm not sure why that's even being brought up, other than to dodge the real issue...

...which is legal liability as a TO.

Looking at it from the pov of a TO, unless someone brings their codices with them, either as GW's epubs or physical books, I can't tell if a copy is of a book the person owns or not.

So, do I take the risk of having people in my tournament, using copies of books that they don't own, which basically boils down to piracy, or do I insist people not use copies unless they prove they own the originals?

Rhetorical question.

What the OP has described, i.e. the TO raising an eyebrow (as he was right to do) to the OP's scanned/printed copy, of the Marine codex, "copied from a friend", thus presumably the OP doesn't own the original and presumably wasn't/isn't able to produce an original if asked to, boils down to a legality issue for the TO, meaning copyright laws in the TO's country and whether or not they as TO and/or they're tournament's players want to abide by the law.

Shouldn't be any question or doubt over it.


EDITED for spelling and clarity.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 02:06:13


Post by: NH Gunsmith


Like another person said, I would have zero issues with copied pages of the book, with just the relevant pages in a binder... as long as they have the books with them as well.

Even if they just leave them in their backpack next to the table, having them there so the TO and opponent can look at them if they choose to is all I would need.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 03:31:00


Post by: General Hobbs




I scan all the relevant info onto a tablet.

I've had hundreds of dollars of rulebooks and codexes lifted off of me at events. I'd rather carry a cheap tablet that is portable enough to throw in a side sack than spend all that money again.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 05:34:53


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Given that legit hard copies of GW paperwork tend to be out of date due to errata within weeks of purchase, meaning further print outs or e-documents of said corrections are fairly mandatory I'm not sure 'official' copies even have that much merit over otherwise sourced versions, and given errata also tends to get errata its quite the faff to keep fully up to date


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 07:54:43


Post by: Slipspace


As a TO I'd probably err on the side of "no". Original copies of all rules should always be provided by the players. As others have said, a printout/scan for ease of reference is fine as long as the original is available.

GW's terrible quality checking and editing does make things more difficult though. It's pretty much guaranteed at this point that the original book will have at least one error in its rules or points that requires an FAQ/errata. Requiring the original copy at least allows those FAQs to be used to reference the exact page, paragraph and sentence more easily.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 13:21:13


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Well, was not aware the intensity of legality in regards to TOing. Clearly none of my friends care when we play, but yes I can imagine a larger tournament being more strict about it.


I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 13:40:54


Post by: beast_gts


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.

I don't know about sued, but it's one of the things that can get a store blacklisted by GW (so they can't buy product direct from them).


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 14:03:25


Post by: Rob Lee


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Well, was not aware the intensity of legality in regards to TOing. Clearly none of my friends care when we play, but yes I can imagine a larger tournament being more strict about it.

I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.



Yeah there's a vast difference to you and your mates getting together and having a "tournament" and an actual organised tournament event, the latter generally being open to the public whilst the former is something you and your buddies do in private.

Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 14:32:59


Post by: warhead01


Now I am wondering how much of an issue my codex will cause. I have my books cut and the pages with the data sheets and rules laminated and spiral bound. Books I bought and paid for. Would a TO have a fit over that?
I'm not sure I see a difference between that and some one having a digital copy on their phone.

As far as cheating with altered rules, that's been going on for decades with people altering army builder apps to mess around with their printed army lists from those programs. Cheaters gunna cheat.
Having a scanned and printed codex which can be verified if need be by any other player of the same faction shouldn't be an issue.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 14:46:04


Post by: Rob Lee


 warhead01 wrote:
Now I am wondering how much of an issue my codex will cause. I have my books cut and the pages with the data sheets and rules laminated and spiral bound. Books I bought and paid for. Would a TO have a fit over that?
I'm not sure I see a difference between that and some one having a digital copy on their phone.


"Books I bought and paid for" - there's the key to it - you can produce them (or in your case what is left of them) to prove you own a copy of the books. Having a digital copy on your phone implies you either have bought a physical copy of the book, or you have bought the ebook. Either way you (should) have proof of purchase/proof of licence to use the item.

Copying a codex from "a friend" as the OP states he has, which in most countries is technically unlawful and therefore regarded as piracy, and then rocking up to an organised event, i.e. not just a gathering with your mates in private, without proof of purchase/ownership/licences should get you some raised eyebrows from the organisers at the very least. Otherwise we can all be using pirated codices, I mean, what's the difference, right...


Personally, if I were a club owner, FLGS owner, or anyone organising a proper organised tournament event or even just had one taking place on my premises, not just a "tournament" among my friends circle, I'd be livid if people turned up with copies of books, even just parts of, they can't prove they own/have a licence to use - it's just not worth being a test case in court and ignorance of the law, especially as piracy has been a very widely discussed issue the world over, will only make it worse for such club/business owners.

Bit like Covid. We in the west are in for a storm of litigation as things start opening up more and more. So as a club/business owner, instead of feigning ignorance, unless you're incredibly dumb, you do everything necessary to prevent that potential litigation impacting on you.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 16:41:00


Post by: oni


I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.

A lot of these comments about piracy are laughable.

The issue is one of respect, propriety and expectation. None of the nonsense above.

If <person> has done everything expected of them to properly play the game (e.g. purchased book, correct models, etc.) then <person> expects all other participants to do the same, but if other participants do not it is a breach of etiquette.

Imagine if you will... You're invited to a cookout and everyone is asked to bring a food item to share, but someone shows up with only the half eaten bag of chips from their pantry. It highlights that persons lack of caring which is disrespectful to the others and it falls short of the expectation of the conventional requirement of the social behavior.

Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 17:16:26


Post by: Rob Lee


 oni wrote:
I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.


Same place as you did only I'm not using spurious analogies to ignorantly dismiss what could be a serious issue if it ever reaches courts. Copyright issues surrounding what people can and can't do with media/content are frequently reaching the courts and we've seen quite a few landmark cases in recent years. It is something to be very much aware of and not to be dismissed as laughable.


I'll just leave this here, I can't find a similar source for the US at this time, but I highly doubt US law is any different -

https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/private-copying/

Under UK Copyright Law, end users can make ‘personal copies for private use’ of content they ‘lawfully acquired on a permanent basis’. This means that it is lawful to make copies of materials you have purchased, received as a gift or downloaded from legal sources. However, it is not permitted to copy content borrowed from a friend, rented or unlawfully obtained.


Note the highlighted part of that paragraph.

Now, the OP has clearly stated he has copied the Marine codex from "a friend".

Which in UK law is not permitted. I doubt it is under US law either. Please feel free to prove me wrong with another spurious analogy about bags of chips though.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 17:36:06


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rob Lee wrote:
...which is legal liability as a TO.


But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.

 Rob Lee wrote:
Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 oni wrote:
Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.

That is an absurd analogy, it's nothing akin to that at all, it generally takes MORE effort to create print outs or scans of your books, you do it because you don't want to carry around a $100, 100 page book for the sake of a handful of pages of rules.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 17:49:22


Post by: Rob Lee


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.


Would you as a TO, club owner, FLGS owner, or other business owner or even premises owner involved, like to test the idea that you're not responsible in the courts?

I think any sane, intelligent, business person/club owner/tournament event organiser would say no and err on the side of caution, be that through asking for evidence, or a blanket refusal of allowing copies to be used, the latter obviously being the easier route.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Yeah I get that.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 18:06:57


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Thank you all for replies. I know the law doesn't care, but there never was malicious intent on my end. Just trying to play the game we know and love while being financially limited. (I say this because potato chip analogy would write me off as lazy and bumming off others but I dont feel thats true)

I am in no way encouraging or promoting any illicit behavior. I have made the actions I have and was attempting to discover the repercussions of what I had done.


So, next question. What if I split the payment for a book with a friend. Then, so we each have a copy, scan and print. Does that change anything? Since I have paid money towards said book?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 18:17:11


Post by: Rob Lee


Yeah I know times are tough. Your best bet is to go buy the book for yourself. That way you know you arse is covered. Shared ownership? Doubt that'd hold any water.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/06 22:59:20


Post by: insaniak


 Rob Lee wrote:

Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.

There's a line, although it's a hazy one at times.

In this particular case, so long as the discussion remains centered around why it is or isn't a bad idea, and stays away from the usual debates over the morality of stealing something you think is too expensive, or actively sharing pirated copies of the rules, it's likely to remain ok.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 01:23:45


Post by: Lorek


This thread is full of people who've never played in a tournament, but if they did, would make it miserable for everyone.

Around half of people roll up to the table with just a printed-out Battlescribe list and nothing else, and 90% of the time this is just fine. There's always someone there that has the actual book if you need it, and you can also Google most of the rules if you really need to.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 01:50:43


Post by: Voss


That's an interesting take. I've never seen google provide the complete text and context of a rule. I certainly wouldn't trust anyone who pulled that out of their pocket in a key moment during a tournament.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 04:40:02


Post by: Kommisar


A printed pdf of a codex isnt even on the radar when most events now are absolutely full of 3d printed and recast miniatures. 90% of games wont require looking at any books if you play even semi regularly. To think that an event organizer would somehow be on the hook legally for a photo copied codex or that anyone would care is pretty out of touch.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 05:59:59


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.


Would you as a TO, club owner, FLGS owner, or other business owner or even premises owner involved, like to test the idea that you're not responsible in the courts?

I think any sane, intelligent, business person/club owner/tournament event organiser would say no and err on the side of caution, be that through asking for evidence, or a blanket refusal of allowing copies to be used, the latter obviously being the easier route.


I'd probably give it a go, haha, yeah, I think the risk would be somewhere between tiny and non-existant.

It just seems to me, what is the TO supposed to do? Ban a legal activity because some people might be doing something illegal? It's perfectly legal if they do have a copy sitting on their shelf at home, and it seems logical that the TO's obligations would end at asking people to only bring copies of books they own.

It'd be like if someone came into your store carrying drugs hidden in their pockets, is it your responsibility to pat them down if you suspected them?

Or if you notice someone carrying what looks like a gun in a state where concealed carry is legal, they don't have to show you their permit.

Of course you can throw them out of your store if you don't like what they're doing, but that's a different matter.

There is obligation to report a crime, but there's not an obligation for you to personally investigate crimes.

I think the bigger risk would be if you are somehow affiliated with GW and GW had some rules saying original copies only (and I don't think they do?).


 Lorek wrote:
This thread is full of people who've never played in a tournament, but if they did, would make it miserable for everyone.

Around half of people roll up to the table with just a printed-out Battlescribe list and nothing else, and 90% of the time this is just fine. There's always someone there that has the actual book if you need it, and you can also Google most of the rules if you really need to.


Good to know, the only tournaments I've been to are local affairs and not for many years. The sorts of tournaments where you're lucky if the person even knows the rules for their own army


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 06:22:30


Post by: Rob Lee


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd probably give it a go, haha, yeah, I think the risk would be somewhere between tiny and non-existant.


Then more fool you.

It just seems to me, what is the TO supposed to do? Ban a legal activity because some people might be doing something illegal?


In a word, yes. It's called covering your arse.


You mention store owners and gun/drug carriers, I'll give you an example, pubs/bars/nightclubs here in the UK can have, and frequently do have, their licence removed for having people dealing drugs on their premises. That's some people doing something illegal on their premises. The pub/bar/nightclub loses it's licence and can no longer operate. They took a risk, on not dealing with the illegal activity on their premises, because they thought the risk was somewhere between tiny and non-existant.

It's not a great stretch to see how copyright holders and their lawyers could start to clamp down on the infringement that goes on in the hobby and for tournament organisers to become liable in a similar way, if they aren't already. We've seen how the music and movie industry are trying to clamp down on copyright infringement. Anyone who says such thinking is "out of touch" and no-one is interested in punishing tabletop gamers who infringe copyright isn't looking properly at the legal action going on already with other forms of entertainment media.

The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 07:01:50


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd probably give it a go, haha, yeah, I think the risk would be somewhere between tiny and non-existant.


Then more fool you.

It just seems to me, what is the TO supposed to do? Ban a legal activity because some people might be doing something illegal?


In a word, yes. It's called covering your arse.


You mention store owners and gun/drug carriers, I'll give you an example, pubs/bars/nightclubs here in the UK can have, and frequently do have, their licence removed for having people dealing drugs on their premises. That's some people doing something illegal on their premises. The pub/bar/nightclub loses it's licence and can no longer operate. They took a risk, on not dealing with the illegal activity on their premises, because they thought the risk was somewhere between tiny and non-existant.
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal, so if an employee of the club sees it happen there's an obligation to report it, if employees / security / managers / owners of a club know that's going on (or worse, are involved) and do nothing to report it then of course the law is going to come down on them as it's always going to be a crime. I wouldn't be surprised if there's also something in the licencing documentation that states they'll take measures to combat drug abuse, giving the licensor an avenue for revoking licences specifically for that reason.

I would imagine in those cases where people have had licences revoked, there would have to be a level of knowing that it was happening and / or allowing it to happen.

However, owning a copied version of a book is only illegal in the subset of situations where the person doesn't own that book. If you ask them and they say they own it then at that point they're not doing anything wrong.

It just seems to me to be beyond reasonable expectation for a TO to police (or more specifically, investigate) that sort of behaviour. If you want to call the popo and ask for them to go raid their house because you suspect they don't own the original of the book they've copied, see how far you get I guess.

Beyond that, ask a lawyer for advice if you're worried about liability, I personally would not be worried unless I saw people blatantly sharing copies on my premises or at my event (at which point if I was a store owner I'd also be pissed they aren't buying product from me ).





As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 07:09:29


Post by: Rob Lee


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 07:12:19


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.


Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.

You're conflating something that is absolutely positively illegal (drug dealing) with something that at best might be illegal only if other circumstances are met (the person doesn't own an original of a copy they possess).


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 07:15:22


Post by: Rob Lee


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).


I'm not conflating anything.

It's an example of what has happened in other areas of entertainment and the arrogant attitudes people have towards it, thinking they'll never get caught. Well those people are getting gakked on.


Possessing a copy is not illegal.


Yes it is. If you don't own the original. Go back to my post with the link in it for reference. It's UK law but, again, it's likely no different in the US or other civilised countries that have copyright laws.


That's the last I'll say on it, I'm sure you or others will have some further lame arguments condoning, and as to why people shouldn't worry about, copyright infringement happening in our hobby.

It's a "debate" that shouldn't even be taking place.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 07:29:19


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).




I'm not conflating anything.

It's an example of what has happened in other areas of entertainment and the arrogant attitudes people have towards it, thinking they'll never get caught. Well those people are getting gakked on.


That's the last I'll say on it, I'm sure you or others will have some further lame arguments condoning, and as to why people shouldn't worry about, copyright infringement happening in our hobby.

It's a "debate" that shouldn't even be taking place.


Your arguments are absurd though.

Yes, sharing copies of copyrighted material is illegal. You can get fined for it and charged damages if the companies involved can prove damages (which is how file sharers copped such big claims, companies successfully argued that their uploads, i.e. them sharing the copied items, equated to lost sales).

Drug dealing is illegal. It'll put you in jail, and in some circumstances it'll get you in trouble if you observe it happening and don't report it.

Possessing a copy of something is not illegal. It only becomes a problem if you don't also own the original.

The difference is something that's blatantly illegal, versus something that is only illegal if other conditions are met. It's why the popo aren't bashing every ipod owner over the head, even though it's highly likely they are listening to a copied version of the music files.

Hell, you could have someone who DOES have the original but stole it, are you going to go round asking people for bank statements and receipts to prove they didn't steal their original copy of the rules?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 07:38:41


Post by: Rob Lee


AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Hell, you could have someone who DOES have the original but stole it, are you going to go round asking people for bank statements and receipts to prove they didn't steal their original copy of the rules?


FFS Your arguments are the one's that are absurd.


Again - Yes it is illegal to have a copy that you don't "own" the original source of. As YOU just stated, not having the original becomes a problem. In fact it becomes a legal problem in most countries that have copyright laws.

FYI - no obviously you don't go asking for receipts. You just don't allow players to use copies. End of.

Like I said, you can keep on spinning it, and trying to condone it all you like. The debate is not one that should be taking place, the more people openly infringe copyright in the hobby the more likely it is for rights holders to start clamping down - and that will only have a negative impact on people who are doing things the right way and aren't infringing copyright.


If you want to be an idiot and/or a douche, as a player, a TO, a FLGS or whatever and put yourself in the crosshairs of the copyright infringement litigators then that's your issue, but don't go ruining it for the rest of us by bringing a crap ton of heat down on the hobby in the process.


That really is the last I'll say on it, better things to do today than repond to your BS.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 08:24:26


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rob Lee wrote:
The debate is not one that should be taking place, the more people openly infringe copyright in the hobby the more likely it is for rights holders to start clamping down - and that will only have a negative impact on people who are doing things the right way and aren't infringing copyright.


And once again, it is not copyright infringement to make a copy of rules from a book which you own, no matter how much you want to make it sound like actual copyright infringement.

You don't have to carry the original around with you any more than you have to carry the 50 CD's which you've ripped into your ipod.

I'm against doing or condoning illegal activity, but what you're talking about is as absurd as accusing everyone who drives a car of doing something illegal because maybe they were speeding, after all, a car would allow one to speed.

That really is the last I'll say on it, better things to do today than repond to your BS.
You keep saying this but you just won't go away

If you're someone who likes to get the last word in, best to not say "this is the last I'll say on it", because you know it's not.

But maybe if you stop saying I'm trying to condone copyright infringement I might stop posting.

Maybe I'll crack out a defamation lawsuit on you, Dakka better shut down the forum before that happens!


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 09:20:59


Post by: insaniak


How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 12:02:53


Post by: ArbitorIan


 Rob Lee wrote:

If you want to be an idiot and/or a douche, as a player, a TO, a FLGS or whatever and put yourself in the crosshairs of the copyright infringement litigators then that's your issue, but don't go ruining it for the rest of us by bringing a crap ton of heat down on the hobby in the process.


Both of your arguments here are about how FAR you think you should go to cover yourself if you think something illegal is happening.

Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top, and goes well beyond 'covering your arse'. Maybe you also require anyone with a FW model to turn up with legitimate proof of purchase from FW just in case you get sued for them bringing a recast? Or hell, anyone turning with ANY models at all has to have a complete set of receipts from GW just to prove they aren't 3D prints. You know, just in case! What if they turn up with a designer hat on - do they need to prove it isn't a knock-off?

The big divider here is probably the act of dealing in copies. I'd suggest that, as a TO, you're not going to be legally liable unless someone is making, distributing or otherwise selling copyrighted material in your event.

But if you want to be more careful, go ahead and start checking the washing instrcutions!



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 12:48:31


Post by: Slipspace


 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 12:51:40


Post by: Polonius


 Lorek wrote:
This thread is full of people who've never played in a tournament, but if they did, would make it miserable for everyone.

Around half of people roll up to the table with just a printed-out Battlescribe list and nothing else, and 90% of the time this is just fine. There's always someone there that has the actual book if you need it, and you can also Google most of the rules if you really need to.


Pretty much this. I'm not nearly as concerned about how the person has their rules available to them as I am concerned about how they think they have their rules memorized.

As for the legal stuff... I see a lot of bad legal takes, but copyright law seems to bring out the really bizarre ones. The first thing to understand is that copyright infringement, outside of malicious and for profit stuff, is a civil matter, not criminal. Once you get into civil law, things start to get fuzzier in the details. A person using a copied codex is certainly actionable, in that there is a clear cause of action. To state with authority "that's illegal" is a gross oversimplification of a complicated system. I think that a person could make a compelling argument that for their personal use of the Space Marine Codex, they need an opponent who also has access to the rules. I'm not sure that's a winning argument, but given the other factors (low value of copied works, lack of commercial/profit seeking behavior, and the minimal actual damages), my guess is that at absolute worst a person would be on the hook for statutory damages, which range as low as $750, and not even GW is going to spend the money necessary to recover $750.

The making a copy for a friend loophole isn't written down anywhere, but we've all had duped tapes, CDs, or DVDs at some point in our lives. Worrying about the copyright police breaking up a tournament because somebody brought a copied codex is just not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's not unreasonable, but it's unnecessary. I cannot fathom any cause of action GW could have against a Tournament organizer when a player used a copied rulebook.

A TO demanding "proof" that a player buys his rules isn't protecting himself, but simping hard for GW. Which is fine, and arguably reasonable, but not necassary.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 13:54:25


Post by: tneva82


What can gw do? Restrict access to sales. Like they do if store preorders for customers before preorder window opens.

Not issue for tournaments with zero support from stores. How many of those are out there?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 14:41:19


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 insaniak wrote:
How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.
Fair enough, boss, it was getting pretty silly several posts ago, lol.

tneva82 wrote:
What can gw do? Restrict access to sales. Like they do if store preorders for customers before preorder window opens.

Not issue for tournaments with zero support from stores. How many of those are out there?


I think one of the major gaming clubs around here that organised many events for years didn't have much support from stores.

But do GW themselves even have a "no copies" rule? Maybe in their own stores, but is it stipulated in any documentation provided to their third party vendors? GW could restrict access, but they'd have to write it into their agreements first.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 15:36:26


Post by: Rob Lee


 insaniak wrote:
How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.


I've added him to my ignore list. Frankly I find him indicative of many people here on this forum, you disagree with their faulty view of something, and they start going stupid with whataboutery, reductio ad absurdum and other spurious argumentative and frankly hostile tactics. It makes for a rather unsavoury forum.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

But if you want to be more careful, go ahead and start checking the washing instrcutions!



Thanks, I will.

Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.



^ THIS.


It is astounding just how blasé people are about the law, civil or criminal and their responsibility. It's not there to play catch me if you can with, or copping out by turning a blind eye.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 15:50:08


Post by: Polonius


 Rob Lee wrote:
It is astounding just how blasé people are about the law, civil or criminal and their responsibility. It's not there to play catch me if you can with, or copping out by turning a blind eye.


I do not think you have a correct understanding of responsibility or liability for copyright infringement, and that is coloring your view of other people's behaviors.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 15:56:06


Post by: Kommisar


 Rob Lee wrote:
It is astounding just how blasé people are about the law, civil or criminal and their responsibility. It's not there to play catch me if you can with, or copping out by turning a blind eye.


I really hope you're trolling. No one in the real world or at any event actually cares about any of this. It must be exhausting to worry so much about what rules and laws other people are or aren't following all the time.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 16:54:17


Post by: Slipspace


 Polonius wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's not unreasonable, but it's unnecessary. I cannot fathom any cause of action GW could have against a Tournament organizer when a player used a copied rulebook.

A TO demanding "proof" that a player buys his rules isn't protecting himself, but simping hard for GW. Which is fine, and arguably reasonable, but not necassary.


It's not unreasonable but it's somehow "simping hard for GW". Yeah, think you may be way off the mark there. In case you missed the point before charging in with your weird accusations, I was merely pointing out that requesting players bring an original copy of the rules they intend to use is not an abnormal request in any tournament pack I can think of.

It's got nothing to do with a TO protecting themselves from copyright lawsuits or protecting the profit margin of GW, it's just standard practice that I've never seen anyone bat an eyelid over. Nobody's taking anyone to court over a scanned copy of the rules at an event but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 17:03:33


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 17:16:03


Post by: Slipspace


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.



Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 17:35:14


Post by: Polonius


Slipspace wrote:


It's not unreasonable but it's somehow "simping hard for GW". Yeah, think you may be way off the mark there. In case you missed the point before charging in with your weird accusations, I was merely pointing out that requesting players bring an original copy of the rules they intend to use is not an abnormal request in any tournament pack I can think of.

It's got nothing to do with a TO protecting themselves from copyright lawsuits or protecting the profit margin of GW, it's just standard practice that I've never seen anyone bat an eyelid over. Nobody's taking anyone to court over a scanned copy of the rules at an event but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.


I think given day one errata, campaign books, white dwarf content, etc., the idea that an original hard copy of the rules is the best source of rules is probably flawed, but whatever. I didn't even disagree that it's reasonable, I just think it's unnecessary. By that, I mean that it doesn't provide enough good to outweigh the cost, but hey, YMMV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.


I didn't accuse you of simpling, unless you're also a TO, in which case, sure. But when original rules, especially for older armies, are so errated up, I"m not sure I 100% see the value. Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices, so if you're actually concerned with accuracy, asking players to bring their books accomplishes little other than making them prove they bought their own books. Hence, the simping.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 17:48:18


Post by: solkan


 Polonius wrote:

Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices


It's hilarious that you'd claim that.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 17:52:11


Post by: Polonius


 solkan wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices


It's hilarious that you'd claim that.


So, any codex published prior to the points readjustment in late 2020 has all improper points. No printed codex includes errata or FAQs, or added datasheets.

Seriously, you do NOT want somebody building an army strictly out of the Astra Militarum. all the points are wrong, Commissars work completely differently, Take Cover could apply to a tank, models could disembark after a valkyrie moved 20" and then move themselves...

I might be slightly hyperbolic, but the bulk of codices have significant changes from their original printed form.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 17:59:04


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Slipspace wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.



Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.
Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Polonius wrote:
I didn't accuse you of simpling, unless you're also a TO, in which case, sure. But when original rules, especially for older armies, are so errated up, I"m not sure I 100% see the value. Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices, so if you're actually concerned with accuracy, asking players to bring their books accomplishes little other than making them prove they bought their own books. Hence, the simping.



Even if someone doesn't give two hoots about GW I think the other reason is maybe if folk are concerned people aren't buying books from stores, particularly if a tournament is supported by or conducted at a local store.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 18:02:33


Post by: Slipspace


 Polonius wrote:
 solkan wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices


It's hilarious that you'd claim that.


So, any codex published prior to the points readjustment in late 2020 has all improper points. No printed codex includes errata or FAQs, or added datasheets.

Seriously, you do NOT want somebody building an army strictly out of the Astra Militarum. all the points are wrong, Commissars work completely differently, Take Cover could apply to a tank, models could disembark after a valkyrie moved 20" and then move themselves...

I might be slightly hyperbolic, but the bulk of codices have significant changes from their original printed form.


Sure, but I'm not taking BattleScribe over a Codex where the rules are concerned - I've had that argument enough times as it is. If someone has the original rules we have the source for applying any errata and FAQs so that's hardly an argument against brining the originals.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 18:10:29


Post by: Polonius


Slipspace wrote:
Sure, but I'm not taking BattleScribe over a Codex where the rules are concerned - I've had that argument enough times as it is. If someone has the original rules we have the source for applying any errata and FAQs so that's hardly an argument against brining the originals.


Except... FAQs and Errata can be just as easily edited or modified as a scanned or photocopied original, so if you're concern is preventing that kind of cheating (whcih, btw, has never happened that I'm aware of), you would require the person to freshly download the FAQs from GW, and have them available digitally.

Bringing physical books is a PITA, especially for armies still usign psychic awakening or forgeworld, and the sole benefit seems to be ensuring that people don't make changes to their print outs/scans, which frankly is not something I've ever heard of happening.

The reality is, it's MUCH more likely that a player, using a hard copy of his codex, will want to use a rule that was errated than they are to somehow forge new rules.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/07 20:44:07


Post by: Slipspace


 Polonius wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Sure, but I'm not taking BattleScribe over a Codex where the rules are concerned - I've had that argument enough times as it is. If someone has the original rules we have the source for applying any errata and FAQs so that's hardly an argument against brining the originals.


Except... FAQs and Errata can be just as easily edited or modified as a scanned or photocopied original, so if you're concern is preventing that kind of cheating (whcih, btw, has never happened that I'm aware of), you would require the person to freshly download the FAQs from GW, and have them available digitally.

Bringing physical books is a PITA, especially for armies still usign psychic awakening or forgeworld, and the sole benefit seems to be ensuring that people don't make changes to their print outs/scans, which frankly is not something I've ever heard of happening.

The reality is, it's MUCH more likely that a player, using a hard copy of his codex, will want to use a rule that was errated than they are to somehow forge new rules.


And those errata and FAs are available digitally to the TO direct from the source so there isn't a problem there. I'm aware of how annoying it is to carry all those books around but that's hardly the fault of the TO and if you're already carrying a large army around the extra weight of a couple of books is fairly incidental.

You're also assuming I'm referring exclusively to GW games (part of why it was so bizarre to be called a GW simp, BTW, since my response was not specifically about GW systems yet you jumped to your bizarre conclusion anyway). Many games don't require that same amount of rules material to play and in many cases the rules are on cards or reference sheets that serve in-game purposes too for tracking damage etc.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 09:51:00


Post by: ArbitorIan


Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


I mean, if you snip a quote out of context it DOES look less reasonable.

Might wanna go back and look at that comment, which is Rob Lee stating that he has to require everyone to bring a physical book otherwise he's gonna get SUED, and me stating how requiring everyone to bring a paper copy just to legally 'cover your arse' is massively OTT behaviour. Because it is.

You're not going to get sued because someone in your tournament had a scan of the rules on an iPad.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 12:27:36


Post by: Skinnereal


Just get the cheaper WH Digital versions (not they they do that any more).
How do TOs handle that as proof of ownership?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.
It is in parts of the world other than yours.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 12:34:18


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Skinnereal wrote:
Just get the cheaper WH Digital versions (not they they do that any more).
How do TOs handle that as proof of ownership?


The digital editions are awful. The layout and aesthetics are just horrid. I bought one digital edition of a book and immediately regretted it, would much rather have a scanned copy of the physical book on my tablet than those things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Skinnereal wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.
It is in parts of the world other than yours.

Which parts? I intentionally checked advice from several different countries and possessing a copy of a book you own was legal in the ones that came up. Perhaps there are parts of the world that are different, but copying for personal use and format changing* seemed to be pretty universally allowed from my googling (obviously you should check the law in your own country).


*other than a couple of exceptions like not being able to format shift video games or remove DRM, but for books, music and so on it seemed like format changing was acceptable use.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 12:42:27


Post by: Rob Lee


 ArbitorIan wrote:


I mean, if you snip a quote out of context it DOES look less reasonable.

Might wanna go back and look at that comment, which is Rob Lee stating that he has to require everyone to bring a physical book otherwise he's gonna get SUED, and me stating how requiring everyone to bring a paper copy just to legally 'cover your arse' is massively OTT behaviour. Because it is.

You're not going to get sued because someone in your tournament had a scan of the rules on an iPad.



And you might want to go back and look at my comments, I haven't said you're going to get sued, I've said there is potential there for it. Don't let that stop anyone continuing to twist what I've said to fit their excuses though.

You're right though, you probably won't get sued. At the moment. Keep pushing and testing the boundaries and that may well change.

Things have been and are already changing. Rights holders, are getting increasingly pissed off with people infringing their copyright and have been and are continuing to take action. And rightly so.

And we're not talking about people copying books they own when referring to copyright infringement.

And that's the point that needs to be understood - people need to be careful and aware of the growing ire of rights holders, more so as a business owner which many TOs are, instead of going about in la la land thinking "oh nobody cares about it, it'll never happen, I can do what I like", and trying to justify and make excuses for turning a blind eye.

If you don't agree with that, that's fine, but at the least you're just sticking your head in the sand.

Like I've said, it's astounding how blasé and in fact ignorant people are.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 13:37:03


Post by: catbarf


 Rob Lee wrote:
And you might want to go back and look at my comments, I haven't said you're going to get sued, I've said there is potential there for it.


That's a complete cop-out. You might as well be arguing that tournaments need to check the resin on Forge World models to make sure they're not recasts because there's potential for them to be sued over it. It's no less reasonable a fear.

There's 'potential' to be sued over anything. They don't actually need a valid claim to sue. What matters from a practical perspective is whether there's clear legal liability, whether there have been historical precedent for lawsuits over the issue, and then whether the defendants have lost. As far as I can see the answers are no, no, and no.

Are you aware of any examples of a TO getting sued for allowing people to use photocopied material- something completely legal in every Western country- and then losing the suit? Because if this boils down to 'it's never happened, but it theoretically could', then that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 13:53:51


Post by: Rob Lee


 catbarf wrote:
allowing people to use photocopied material- something completely legal in every Western country-


Yes. Only if you own the original material. We all know that if you own the original, in the UK, likely the same in the US, you are allowed by law to make and use copies for personal use. That's not an issue. And that's been well established.

The issue isn't over people who own the original source of their copies.


If you think everyone should just sit back, ignore it, or continue pushing the boundaries, then act surprised when rights holders kick off, and that is the message being given off in this thread, then fine. I don't and I know many rights holders and content creators don't either.




As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 16:17:23


Post by: catbarf


 Rob Lee wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
allowing people to use photocopied material- something completely legal in every Western country-


Yes. Only if you own the original material. We all know that if you own the original, in the UK, likely the same in the US, you are allowed by law to make and use copies for personal use. That's not an issue. And that's been well established.

The issue isn't over people who own the original source of their copies.


Photocopies are legal. Photocopies of books you don't own are not. You're saying TOs need to ban photocopies or face legal liability for copyright infringement. Which doesn't make any sense since they're not in any way, shape, or form abetting the distribution of copyrighted material (unlike the example of a club knowingly abetting drug sales), but let's roll with this for a moment.

Forge World minis are legal. Recasts aren't. Do TOs need to ban FW minis to avoid legal liability for recasts? Buying a recast model and downloading/printing a pirated document are the same as far as the law is concerned. TOs can't tell if a photocopy holder owns the book, TOs can't tell if a model is legitimate. It's the same 'problem'.

Owning minis is legal. Owning stolen minis isn't. How's a TO to deal with that?

The nebulous threat that some rights holders will start filing frivolous lawsuits isn't much of an argument. That said, it might be a relevant concern for TOs who don't want to deal with any kind of lawsuit- frivolous or not- but that would hinge on there being any prior examples or sources beyond your uncle who works at Nintendo.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 16:32:22


Post by: Rob Lee


Jeez, people like you just don't give up with the spurious disingenuous arguments do you.

It's like talking to a brick wall.

I guess ignorance is bliss.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 16:41:24


Post by: catbarf


I dunno, I've written material for which I retain the copyright, and I've never felt compelled to hit up random venues where my material might theoretically be present in an infringing form and file lawsuits. If someone's actively distributing it that's a whole different ball game.

I've never heard of others in my industry do it either, nor in wargaming, so you'll have to forgive me if 'I know a dude and he's getting real mad and someday he'll come after you for frivolous reasons' isn't particularly compelling.

Nothing disingenuous on my end. Nothing spurious either- if you can articulate why you feel infringement on copyright of written material needs to be zealously guarded on GW's behalf but infringement on copyright of sculpture doesn't, I'd be happy to hear it.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 16:52:09


Post by: ninjafiredragon


This thread has become incredibly amusing. The power of perspective I guess.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 17:01:11


Post by: Rob Lee


 catbarf wrote:

Nothing disingenuous on my end. Nothing spurious either- if you can articulate why you feel infringement on copyright of written material needs to be zealously guarded on GW's behalf but infringement on copyright of sculpture doesn't, I'd be happy to hear it.


Nothing disingenuous on your end.

Riiight.

I haven't said anything about recasts and other sculpting IP infringement. FYI I have the same view on that - it's unlawful.

Do I know or have an idea on how that should be dealt with, no not really.

But that doesn't take away from the issue being there, nor do I think anyone should just turn a blind eye to it and let it carry on.


Please do carry on making up things about what I've said or haven't said or what I think or feel though.


If you can tell me why, besides "because they won't get caught", people shouldn't care about the law around making copies of books they don't own, recasts, or why any other sort of copyright infringement should be tolerated, then please do, I need a good laugh.


I guess I'm the bad guy here though, right, thinking people should do the right thing, shouldn't be turning a blind eye and should be aware of an issue that could come back to bite them and those around them in the ass, rather than ignorantly dismissing such concerns.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 17:42:37


Post by: Polonius


 catbarf wrote:
Photocopies are legal. Photocopies of books you don't own are not.


The first is probably legal, the second is probably illegal. That's the thing with this stuff, it's just not as clear as people on either side want to think.

It's obviously not illegal to sometimes make photocopies of copyrighted material, otherwise libraries wouldn't have copy machines.

And we know we can't scan, print, and bind up copies of books and resell them.

What's legal is somewhere in there.

Look at a codex. Is even half of it actually rules? cut out the crusade stuff and the points values, and you're left with half of the Space Marine codex. If you are smarter still, and only include those datasheets you plan on using, the startegems, the general rules, and the points from CA2020, you might only be carrying 20 pages of photocopies out of a 200 page book. is that fair use? Probably not?

The reality is that outside of the napster years with DRM, there just haven't been a lot of cases of rights holders filing suit against individuals with copied works for personal use. And even in the napster cases, the people they sued didn't just downloaded, but "published" (shared) the works.

Remember that copyright is a federal matter. This doesn't go to small claims or mayor's court, a real corporation would have to hire an attorney to file a complaint in federal court against a person for making a photocopy of their rules for a friend. One of the few ironclad rules of the federal courts is that judges hate cases that waste their time, which this 100% does. then the person becomes a minor cause celebre because they are being bullied by a multinational corporation over a few photocopies. All of this, for, best case, $750 in statutory damages. I'm not here to say that this will never happen, but I'd buy comet insurance before I'd worry about being sued over a few dittoed rules. Mostly because copyright does not, and cannot, protect facts, information, data, or ideas. It can only protect the expression of that idea. Rules and manuals are notoriously difficult to protect by copyright.

I think a lot of people think that the law is simple (it's not) and the threats/concerns are complex (they aren't). Copyright law is incredibly complicated, and nobody is in a hurry to actually take a case to court over personal photocopies of rules. There simply is no threat.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 18:13:48


Post by: catbarf


 Rob Lee wrote:
I haven't said anything about recasts and other sculpting IP infringement. FYI I have the same view on that - it's unlawful.


If you recognize they're both unlawful, why are you adamant that TOs are going to get sued for allowing photocopies that may or may not be legal, but aren't worried about TOs getting sued for allowing models that may or may not be legal?

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm asking you to articulate a consistent and logical position.

Oh, and to be clear: I do not condone or support copyright infringement or recasting. Nobody in this thread has done that. Being against your position that TOs, an unrelated third party, must take up the role of overzealously guarding GW's copyright on their behalf, does not make me pro-infringement. That is a disingenuous argument you are making and I would appreciate if you didn't.

 Polonius wrote:
The first is probably legal, the second is probably illegal. That's the thing with this stuff, it's just not as clear as people on either side want to think.


Thank you for that correction- you are absolutely right, it's never clear-cut. And even when it is ostensibly clear-cut, that's no guarantee against a lawsuit. We can only speak in generalities and trends.

But I want to point out that Rob's concern isn't individuals being sued for personal photocopies, but rather some kind of liability on the part of a TO for allowing photocopies to be present at the event. That, in theory, could be for a lot more than $750 in statutory damages- but why anyone would construe merely allowing photocopies as aiding in the distribution of copyrighted material, let alone pursue legal action, is beyond me.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 18:36:15


Post by: Rob Lee


 catbarf wrote:

I'm not putting words in your mouth


Yeah actually you are. Again, I'm not adamant that TOs are going to get sued. I can just recognise there is the potential and that people need to be more careful about turning a blind eye.

I also haven't said anything about being concerned, or not, about liability for models of dubious legality being used.

That's your inference.

Also I don't need to articulate anything, I've repeatedly stated what I actually think. If you are not "pro-infringement", to use your term, then we are both on the same page and I don't see why you or anyone else is trying to argue over it.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 18:48:30


Post by: catbarf


 Rob Lee wrote:
I also haven't said anything about being concerned, or not, about liability for models of dubious legality being used.

That's your inference.


Yeah, that's where you lose me. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm asking whether you have the same concerns and advocate the same extreme measures about other forms of copyright infringement.

You're extremely concerned about one specific type of potential copyright infringement resulting in lawsuits but can't explain why it's more of a risk than other forms of potential copyright infringement in the same context against the same entity.

So it sounds like there isn't any rational basis for your concern.

 Rob Lee wrote:
If you are not "pro-infringement", to use your term, then we are both on the same page


I don't think so. That's a false dichotomy if I've ever seen one.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 18:54:42


Post by: Rob Lee


 catbarf wrote:


Yeah, that's where you lose me. I'm not putting words in your mouth


Again yes you are, prime example -

 catbarf wrote:
You're extremely concerned about one specific type of potential copyright infringement resulting in lawsuits but can't explain why it's more of a risk than other forms of potential copyright infringement in the same context against the same entity.

So it sounds like there isn't any rational basis for your concern.


You're telling me what I'm thinking. You're telling me that I'm "extremely concerned about one specific type".

Thank you for telling me that, I'm glad I can rely on you to tell me what I'm thinking.

The topic is/was about books, copies of, PDFs etc, so, yeah, my comments have been in reference to copyright infringement of those items.

If your gripe is that I've ignored comments about recasts etc., then yes, I've been ignoring them, because they're spurious arguments coming from people using reductio ad absurdum examples to justify turning a blind eye.


 catbarf wrote:

 Rob Lee wrote:
If you are not "pro-infringement", to use your term, then we are both on the same page


I don't think so. That's a false dichotomy if I've ever seen one.


Sorry what?! You're either not "pro-infringement" or you are.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 18:59:14


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 catbarf wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
If you are not "pro-infringement", to use your term, then we are both on the same page


I don't think so. That's a false dichotomy if I've ever seen one.
None of us are for copyright infringement in this thread, but I think Rob isn't just on a different page he's reading a different book, in a different language, probably in Russian


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 19:00:03


Post by: catbarf


 Rob Lee wrote:
You're telling me what I'm thinking. You're telling me "You're extremely concerned about one specific type".

Thank you for telling me that, I'm glad I can rely on you to tell me what I'm thinking.

The topic was about books, so, yeah, my comments have been in reference to copyright infringement regarding books.


Okay. Let's make this simple.

Do you think TOs need to be worried about forms of copyright infringement other than books?

If not, why not?

 Rob Lee wrote:
Sorry what?! You're either not "pro-infringement" or you are.


I'm against copyright infringement.

I'm also against TOs taking it upon themselves to ban all potentially copyright infringing content over dubious fears of lawsuits.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 19:07:51


Post by: Rob Lee


 catbarf wrote:

Do you think TOs need to be worried about forms of copyright infringement other than books?

If not, why not?


Pretty much asked and answered already. I'll reiterate. Yes. Worried isn't the word I'd use. Aware of and cautious are the words I'd use.

 catbarf wrote:

I'm against copyright infringement.

I'm also against TOs taking it upon themselves to ban all potentially copyright infringing content over dubious fears of lawsuits.


Riiight. Gotcha.

If you're against copyright infringement I don't see why you have an issue with anyone, TOs, FLGS, even players, taking it upon themselves to do something about it and in the process cover themselves against any potential future where they may get involved in litigation. Because as you and others have stated, apparently there's no threat from rights holders, so if that's genuinely the case, and if TOs, FLGS, even players, don't up their awareness and exercise caution, so that copyright infringement doesn't run unabated, who will?

Rhetorical question, but I'm sure someone will chime in with yet another spurious excuse.

This whole thread is laughable. People arguing against the idea of people doing something about something that is unlawful and which shouldn't be tolerated. Just can't make it up.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 19:52:58


Post by: catbarf


 Rob Lee wrote:
Asked and answered already. I'll reiterate. Yes. Worried isn't the word I'd use. Aware of and cautious are the words I'd use.


If the appropriate measure to combat the risk of potentially copyright-infringing printed works is to ban them entirely, what's the appropriate measure for combating the risk of potentially copyright-infringing minis? How do the risks differ?

 Rob Lee wrote:
If you're against copyright infringement I don't see why you have an issue with anyone, TOs, FLGS, even players, taking it upon themselves to do something about it and in the process cover their own backsides.


There's a lot to unpack here.

1. I'm against copyright infringement as a general principle.

2. I'm against overzealous enforcement of copyright law being used to quash legal activity. The erosion of fair use by automated processes or blanket rules is a problem. I don't believe barring players from making their own quick-reference sheets is justifiable, either legally or morally.

3. I'm against TOs, FLGSes, and/or players taking it upon themselves to defend GW's copyright so far beyond what is needed to cover their own (nonexistent) liability. Given the lack of any precedent for tournament organizers, game stores, or random bystanders becoming liable for... tolerating the existence of copyrighted material in their presence, I guess, they don't have any relevant standing. It's not their problem, if it's a problem at all. That ball's in GW's court, and unless you are personally costing them a lot of money, they don't care.

4. I'm against missing the forest for the trees with copyright. Copyright suits are about demonstrable damages. A kid's fanfic about Guilliman is technically a copyright violation (characters in published works are copyrighted), but there are no monetary implications and it certainly isn't going to result in any legal problems if they bring it along to a tournament. There's an element of reasonableness that should be taken into consideration, and a dude bringing a few pages of rules copied from a codex he owns is neither depriving GW of income nor facilitating more extensive copyright infringement. There are no damages. It's a non-issue.

I don't have any problem with a TO having rules against overt recasts or pirated material, but in any case where there's ambiguity and no actual liability, assume good faith. Unnecessary impediments to players for the sake of defending the sanctity of GW's IP is a bad look.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 19:57:30


Post by: Rob Lee


 catbarf wrote:

There's a lot to unpack here.

1. I'm against copyright infringement as a general principle.

2. I'm against overzealous enforcement of copyright law being used to quash legal activity. The erosion of fair use by automated processes or blanket rules is a problem. I don't believe barring players from making their own quick-reference sheets is justifiable, either legally or morally.

3. I'm against TOs, FLGSes, and/or players taking it upon themselves to defend GW's copyright so far beyond what is needed to cover their own (nonexistent) liability. Given the lack of any precedent for tournament organizers, game stores, or random bystanders becoming liable for... tolerating the existence of copyrighted material in their presence, I guess, they don't have any relevant standing. It's not their problem, if it's a problem at all. That ball's in GW's court, and unless you are personally costing them a lot of money, they don't care.

4. I'm against missing the forest for the trees with copyright. Copyright suits are about demonstrable damages. A kid's fanfic about Guilliman is technically a copyright violation (characters in published works are copyrighted), but there are no monetary implications and it certainly isn't going to result in any legal problems if they bring it along to a tournament. There's an element of reasonableness that should be taken into consideration, and a dude bringing a few pages of rules copied from a codex he owns is neither depriving GW of income nor facilitating more extensive copyright infringement. There are no damages. It's a non-issue.

I don't have any problem with a TO having rules against overt recasts or pirated material, but in any case where there's ambiguity and no actual liability, assume good faith. Unnecessary impediments to players for the sake of defending the sanctity of GW's IP is a bad look.





Aaaaand right on cue...

1. Just so long as you don't have to do anything about it and others don't either. Civil liberties and all that. Right.
2. Whatever. Allowing or tolerating copyright infringement isn't justifiable either, legally or morally.
3. Nothing to do with defending GW specifically.
4. I guess it needs reiterating again, as you keep coming back to it, time and time again - the issue isn't copying material you own.

Good faith, yeah, that only goes so far. Like when I saw what the OP had stated, I assumed in good faith that people would advise him of what he did wrong and why the TO was rightly sniffy about it and move on, not go for days arguing against the idea of people doing something about something that is unlawful and which shouldn't be tolerated - an argument that is laughable at best.

And you seem to be very selective in your view, you claim to not have any problem with TOs having rules over overt pirated material, so long as it's not rules about pirated GW stuff, because apparently that's going too far and is overzealous, presumably because it's GW.

It's a joke of an argument. And not even a humorous one at that.

Next spurious argumentative post full of excuses please, at some point maybe one of you will work out that you have no valid argument and you're just going round and round in circles.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 21:05:55


Post by: catbarf


 Rob Lee wrote:
3. Nothing to do with defending GW specifically.

 Rob Lee wrote:
so long as it's not rules about pirated GW stuff, because apparently that's going too far and is overzealous, presumably because it's GW.


This is part of why your posts confuse me. It's not about defending GW, but everyone arguing with you hates GW and is justifying piracy against GW.

 Rob Lee wrote:
4. I guess it needs reiterating again, as you keep coming back to it, time and time again - the issue isn't copying material you own.

 Rob Lee wrote:
something that is unlawful and which shouldn't be tolerated

 Rob Lee wrote:
Even if it is your own copy of the book, I think you'll find it's still unlawful to copy it, even for personal use unless parts of the book state otherwise.


This is also why your posts confuse me. Copying material you own is fine, but also it's unlawful and shouldn't be tolerated.

 Rob Lee wrote:
other spurious argumentative and frankly hostile tactics. It makes for a rather unsavoury forum.


Quoted without comment.

At this point I think it's clear that civil discussion is long gone, so I'll just say this: If you really think I am some GW-hating piracy apologist, Polonius is literally a lawyer. You might consider taking a step back, since fourteen edits in an hour suggests you are rather invested, and reconsider their posts.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 21:33:16


Post by: Rob Lee


Yep look, right on cue again.

Do you know why civil discussion is not possible? Because you and others can't manage to do anything but twist what I and a couple of others have stated, and resort to reductio ad absurdum, to fit your own narratives - something which you might consider taking a step back from.

Like this -

This is also why your posts confuse me. Copying material you own is fine, but also it's unlawful and shouldn't be tolerated.


Unless you're hard of comprehending you know very well that I haven't said that.


And thank you, but I'll edit my posts as many times as I wish.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 22:33:40


Post by: insaniak


 Rob Lee wrote:

If you're against copyright infringement I don't see why you have an issue with anyone, TOs, FLGS, even players, taking it upon themselves to do something about it and in the process cover themselves against any potential future where they may get involved in litigation. Because as you and others have stated, apparently there's no threat from rights holders, so if that's genuinely the case, and if TOs, FLGS, even players, don't up their awareness and exercise caution, so that copyright infringement doesn't run unabated, who will?

Genuine question: Can you explain just how a TO would go about determining if a copy is unlawful?

Keeping in mind that most TOs are not IP lawyers, and even IP lawyers when asked about this topic tend to say that there's no real way to say what would and wouldn't be considered legal because the law is fuzzy and it's never been tested in court. And is unlikely to ever be so tested.





As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 22:38:40


Post by: Rob Lee


 insaniak wrote:

Genuine question: Can you explain just how a TO would go about determining if a copy is unlawful?


No, and I've never said they have to. Can you? Just don't allow copies. Simplest solution. I realise some people don't like the liberty issues they perceive that causing them personally. Tough luck.


 insaniak wrote:

Keeping in mind that most TOs are not IP lawyers, and even IP lawyers when asked about this topic tend to say that there's no real way to say what would and wouldn't be considered legal because the law is fuzzy and it's never been tested in court. And is unlikely to ever be so tested.


Do they. OK. I'll take your word for that.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 22:43:14


Post by: insaniak


OK. So we're suggesting that TO's put in place a blanket ban on something on the grounds that it may possibly be illegal?

Here's a similarly hazy area - Swearing (or, more specifically 'offensive language') in public is illegal in some places. However, exactly what constitutes 'offensive' is not well defined by law. Should TO's in that case ban talking at their events, on the off chance that someone will say something offensive?



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 22:44:43


Post by: Rob Lee


 insaniak wrote:
OK. So we're suggesting that TO's put in place a blanket ban on something on the grounds that it may possibly be illegal?

Here's a similarly hazy area - Swearing (or, more specifically 'offensive language') in public is illegal in some places. However, exactly what constitutes 'offensive' is not well defined by law. Should TO's in that case ban talking at their events, on the off chance that someone will say something offensive?



And there's the reductio ad absurdum again.

What do you suggest then? Let copyright infringement run riot?

And no doubt we're back to the circular argument about it not being an issue, apparently, again.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 23:22:33


Post by: insaniak


 Rob Lee wrote:
And there's the reductio ad absurdum again.

How so? What exactly makes banning talking because swearing might happen any more absurd than banning copies because some of them might be infringing copyright?

That's a serious question. I'm genuinely curious about your answer.


What do you suggest then? Let copyright infringement run riot?

Do you have evidence that shows that copyright infringement does actually 'run riot' if TOs allow photocopied rules?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 23:33:54


Post by: solkan


 insaniak wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
And there's the reductio ad absurdum again.

How so? What exactly makes banning talking because swearing might happen any more absurd than banning copies because some of them might be infringing copyright?

That's a serious question. I'm genuinely curious about your answer.


What do you suggest then? Let copyright infringement run riot?

Do you have evidence that shows that copyright infringement does actually 'run riot' if TOs allow photocopied rules?


Making this about "running rampant" is just a "it's not a crime if no one gets caught" argument.

If Bob owns the codex, photocopies it, and gives his friend Joe that copy, Bob is committing copyright infringement. Bob is doing so on a scale that is generally impractical to stop, but is doing so all the same. It's the same result if Bob scans his codex, uploads it somewhere, and Joe downloads a copy and prints it out.

If Bob doesn't share with anyone else, and keeps all of the copies to himself, there's no copyright infringement. That's all just "personal use".


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 23:35:32


Post by: Rob Lee


 insaniak wrote:

How so? What exactly makes banning talking because swearing might happen any more absurd than banning copies because some of them might be infringing copyright?

That's a serious question. I'm genuinely curious about your answer.


If that's a serious question then, wow, just wow. I'm not going to even give you an answer, because you are using a ridiculous example to try to imply that taking action against copyright infringement is absurd.


 insaniak wrote:

Do you have evidence that shows that copyright infringement does actually 'run riot' if TOs allow photocopied rules?


No I don't. And you have no evidence that it won't.

I've laid out my view over the past few days, in response to comments made to me, and about me, at every turn my view has been twisted and misrepresented. Whether I am right or wrong, or you agree or not with my view, is there any real need to keep on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on with the picking and twisting and misrepresenting, from anyone?

Or is that just how it goes around here. "DakkaDakka the wild west outpost of the internet."


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/08 23:57:51


Post by: insaniak


 Rob Lee wrote:

If that's a serious question then, wow, just wow. I'm not going to even give you an answer, because you are using a ridiculous example to try to imply that taking action against copyright infringement is absurd.

Why is it a ridiculous example?

Seriously, I'd like an answer on that. Why do you consider TOs removing the danger of offensive behaviour (which actually potentially causes direct, visible damage) to be more ridiculous than TOs acting as defacto copyright enforcers?


 insaniak wrote:
No I don't. And you have no evidence that it won't.

Sure. But you're the one calling for the ban, so the burden of evidence here is on you.


I've laid out my view over the past few days, at every turn my view has been twisted and misrepresented. Whether I am right or wrong, or you agree or not with my view, is there any real need to keep on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on with the picking and twisting and misrepresenting, from anyone?

I'm not sure where you're seeing any twisting and misrepresenting going on in my posts. I asked a simple question which you refused to answer.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 00:12:42


Post by: Rob Lee


 insaniak wrote:

I'm not sure where you're seeing any twisting and misrepresenting going on in my posts. I asked a simple question which you refused to answer.


Haven't said specifically you have. Others have though. Although, there is this -

 insaniak wrote:
Sure. But you're the one calling for the ban, so the burden of evidence here is on you.


I'm not calling for anything, so yeah, misrepresenting my view.

I've simply stated it's one of the simplest solutions available. You're conflating me stating that TOs should be cautious, and aware, and take some action, with calling for a ban.


I'm also not answering your question because, again, your arguing that TOs should turn a blind eye because taking action is absurd.

Been over that argument several times this past few days.



You know, you told me and a certain other person to drop it. And yet here you are, as a moderator, continuing what is in fact a redundant circular discussion. One that I actually wanted no part of since 3 days ago now, and yet, again I'll state it, I've had my view misrepresented and twisted so I have had to interject to straighten that up.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 00:22:15


Post by: insaniak


 Rob Lee wrote:

I'm not calling for anything, so yeah, misrepresenting my view.

I've simply stated it's one of the simplest solutions available.

OK. But it's only a solution if there is actually a problem to solve. So you would need to demonstrate the existence of that problem.


I'm also not answering your question because, again, your arguing that TOs should turn a blind eye because taking action is absurd.

No, that wasn't my point at all. I'm not suggesting that TO's should turn a blind eye to copyright infringement. In cases where the infringement is patently clear, I see no issue with them refusing to allow it in their event. My argument was intended to illustrate the absurdity of your nuclear solution. As were the examples earlier in the thread of Forgeworld models (or any models, for that matter) which you dismissed as irrelevant.

You're clearly seeing some distinction between copyright infringement of printed material and any other potential lawbreaking that may be committed at a tournament, hence my request for you to explain that reasoning.


You know, you told me and a certain other person to drop it. And yet here you are, as a moderator, continuing what is in fact a redundant circular discussion. One that I actually wanted no part of since 2 days ago, and yet, again I'll state it, I've had my view misrepresented and twisted so I have had to interject to straighten that up.

I told you and that other poster to drop an argument in which you were both saying the exact same thing and insisting that the other guy was wrong about it.

What's happening here isn't a circular argument. It's me asking you to explain your point of view and you refusing to do that. But yes, unless that changes, there is little point in continuing here.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 00:23:48


Post by: catbarf


 insaniak wrote:
Why is it a ridiculous example?

Seriously, I'd like an answer on that. Why do you consider TOs removing the danger of offensive behaviour (which actually potentially causes direct, visible damage) to be more ridiculous than TOs acting as defacto copyright enforcers?


I think it's pretty telling that every time someone makes an analogy, Rob calls it reductio ad absurdum- which is to say that he tacitly admits that when you apply his logic to TOs banning anything else that could hypothetically be used to break the law, it's completely absurd.

More importantly, reductio ad absurdum isn't a fallacy; it's an argument that exposes fallacy. It's up to Rob to explain why the analogy is invalid- something he seems unwilling to do.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 00:28:13


Post by: Rob Lee


 insaniak wrote:

OK. But it's only a solution if there is actually a problem to solve. So you would need to demonstrate the existence of that problem.


Demonstrate the existence of that problem? Er, read the OP. Isolated incident? Maybe. Highly doubt it.

 insaniak wrote:

No, that wasn't my point at all. I'm not suggesting that TO's should turn a blind eye to copyright infringement. In cases where the infringement is patently clear, I see no issue with them refusing to allow it in their event. My argument was intended to illustrate the absurdity of your nuclear solution. As were the examples earlier in the thread of Forgeworld models (or any models, for that matter) which you dismissed as irrelevant.

You're clearly seeing some distinction between copyright infringement of printed material and any other potential lawbreaking that may be committed at a tournament, hence my request for you to explain that reasoning.


So, we know that copyright infringement happens, but you don't agree that anyone should be pro-active. Okay.

And no, I'm not seeing any distinction. But OK lets use your analogy, someone is swearing. So, you boot them out. Do we need to be pro-active about it. Not really. Because generally people act in good faith with that sort of thing. Sure you can say the same about copyright infringement, but people engaging in it aren't acting in good faith. My reasoning here is that swearing is unlikely to be an escalating problem. Copyright infringement is. We've seen how it's grown in recent years. Look on the internet and it's not hard to find what you're looking for.

 insaniak wrote:

I told you and that other poster to drop an argument in which you were both saying the exact same thing and insisting that the other guy was wrong about it.

What's happening here isn't a circular argument. It's me asking you to explain your point of view and you refusing to do that. But yes, unless that changes, there is little point in continuing here.


Yeah, it is circular, people keep going round and round asking the same questions, picking at wording, making the same arguments. And yeah I'm refusing to explain my point of view, because I've been doing it for the last 3 days, repeatedly, because people have been misquoting me, twisting my words, and misrepresenting my view.


My point of view - copyright infringement is unlawful (actual fact, not just my view). It should not be tolerated. If anyone doesn't agree. Okay. Doesn't agree that something pro-active should be done. Okay. Doesn't agree that people should care, be aware or cover their arses. Okay. But my view won't change, regardless of the holes anyone wants to pick, or twist my words, or just flat out misrepresent what I've stated.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 01:25:36


Post by: insaniak


 Rob Lee wrote:

Demonstrate the existence of that problem? Er, read the OP. Isolated incident? Maybe. Highly doubt it.

Sure, it's unlikely to be the only case. But going straight to the nuclear option on the basis of a hunch seems extreme.


So, we know that copyright infringement happens, but you don't agree that anyone should be pro-active. Okay.

What was that about misrepresenting arguments?

I'm totally ok with TOs being 'pro-active' about the issue. That doesn't mean, however, that banning copies entirely is the best or only way to do that.

It's also still unclear why you seem to feel that TOs should be pro-active on this single copyright issue (printed rules) alone.


Sure you can say the same about copyright infringement, but people engaging in it aren't acting in good faith.

What does this mean?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 01:50:54


Post by: Rob Lee


 insaniak wrote:

Sure, it's unlikely to be the only case. But going straight to the nuclear option on the basis of a hunch seems extreme.


Okay. That's your view.


 insaniak wrote:

What was that about misrepresenting arguments?


Turnabout is fair play.

 insaniak wrote:

I'm totally ok with TOs being 'pro-active' about the issue. That doesn't mean, however, that banning copies entirely is the best or only way to do that.


I'm aware it's not the only way. Not the best way? What is then? I've not heard one peep from anyone who's been arguing with me, about how they think copyright infringement, before it becomes a problem, for anyone, could be dealt with. Which implies the general consensus is that no-one should even bother.

Although at this juncture I'm not actually interested in discussing that.


 insaniak wrote:

It's also still unclear why you seem to feel that TOs should be pro-active on this single copyright issue (printed rules) alone.


Again, you haven't read what I've stated previously. The initial "discussion" was about books. Hence I commented regarding that. If you think I don't think anyone should be pro-active in general on copyright infringement of any other sort, then that's your inference and you're wrong. I've stated that previously in this thread also.

And yeah, yeah, I know, I know, you can't go round asking people for receipts to prove their Forgeworld stuff is legit. And no, I don't currently know of a solution for preventing or dealing with that where it's not legit.


 insaniak wrote:

Sure you can say the same about copyright infringement, but people engaging in it aren't acting in good faith.

What does this mean?


I'll use your analogy again - people swearing probably don't set out with the intent to start swearing. Those engaging in copyright infringement often do set out to do it intentionally.

Again, and with all due respect, there's no point in continuing this discussion. Would be appreciated if other people can also refrain from misquoting, twisting or otherwise misrepresenting my view if they choose to continue the discussion with others - I'm pretty sure it's been intentional thus far. Or even better, just leave me and my view out of it.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 08:14:30


Post by: Slipspace


 insaniak wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:

Demonstrate the existence of that problem? Er, read the OP. Isolated incident? Maybe. Highly doubt it.

Sure, it's unlikely to be the only case. But going straight to the nuclear option on the basis of a hunch seems extreme.


"Nuclear option"? Seriously? Bringing a Codex to a tournament is the nuclear option now? Also, I think you're moving the goalposts here. You asked if the problem existed, the example of the OP shows it does, but you're still calling it a "hunch" that the problem exists. How many cases need to exist before TOs are allowed to ask for original versions of the rules?

I don't get what the problem is here. We all agree that copyright infringement is illegal, it seems. We also all seem to be on the same page as far as fair use, which allows copying something you own for personal use. We also seem to agree that TOs marching up and down rows of tables demanding to see receipts is entirely unreasonable. And we all seem to agree that using copies of rules you don't actually own is copyright infringement (regardless of our moral stance on that act). All good so far?

What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies. If you're claiming fair use you'll own the originals so what's the problem? I don't think it's really about a TO being overly worried about being sued but if the problem is minor yet the solution is also extremely simple while completely removing any potential legal issue at all why the resistance?

I've seen more than one tournament pack that lists bringing all your required original rules material as part of the player requirements. I literally cannot think of a single time anyone's complained about that stipulation, which is why I'm so confused it's causing such an issue ITT.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 08:28:32


Post by: Blackie


In Italy is legal to copy up to 15% of a book protected by copyright so techincally bringing all the required pages with just the datasheets and rules for a specific list shouldn't be a problem here, even if they are printed/scanned copies.

But just like the WYSIWYG thing and the requirement of painting the army each TO has its own sets of home rules that must be complied if someone wants to partecipate and demanding to bring only original books, and no scanned/printed copies, is something I read very often among the requirements for attending a tournament.

So unless your country forbids copying something protected by copyright, even if it's just a fraction of the book, demanding the original codex is an house rule. A legit one of course, but still an house rule.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 08:36:14


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.
Because some people don't want to cart their books around for a few pages of rules and some of us think it's an unnecessary step to ban copies of rules (a perfectly legal option) for the few people who might be doing it to infringe copyright.

But in the end I think it becomes a matter of principle more than anything. One point is I don't like the idea of banning something that people are allowed to do for the sake of stopping people who are maybe-possible-we-don't-know doing something wrong. Another point is I don't think it's the jurisdiction of TO's to police copyright infringement, it doesn't make sense that they would be liable so it also doesn't make sense that they'd need to police it. And yet another point, even if every TO in the world did ban copies I think it'd have such a miniscule impact on book sales from the few wrongdoers who would have otherwise copied it from a friend. I seriously doubt the people who can't live without tournaments make up a large portion of the copyright infringing community

Of course this is just a discussion forum about little toy soldiers, anyone is welcome to politely disagree with my opinions, it's hardly a life or death matter nor is this thread going to change the world.

It's not like we're talking about banning guns here, where regardless of your side of the fence, the "think of the children!" argument does carry some weight.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 08:47:31


Post by: Slipspace


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.
Because some people don't want to cart their books around for a few pages of rules and some of us think it's an unnecessary step to ban copies of rules (a perfectly legal option) for the few people who might be doing it to infringe copyright.


Fair enough. I think at this point the main disagreement is over the inconvenience of carrying hard copies of books to tournaments. Personally I view that as a tiny issue compared to the logistics of getting an entire army to a tournament (at least if we're talking about GW games) so I don't find the argument particularly compelling.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 09:29:00


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Slipspace wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.
Because some people don't want to cart their books around for a few pages of rules and some of us think it's an unnecessary step to ban copies of rules (a perfectly legal option) for the few people who might be doing it to infringe copyright.


Fair enough. I think at this point the main disagreement is over the inconvenience of carrying hard copies of books to tournaments. Personally I view that as a tiny issue compared to the logistics of getting an entire army to a tournament (at least if we're talking about GW games) so I don't find the argument particularly compelling.


That's fair. I haven't played in tournaments for years, back when I did my army was small and fit in a backpack and I tended to damage my books when I carried them with me.

These days armies are massive to transport, so maybe you're right that it's not a big deal to transport the books safely alongside them.

You also have the issue that GW have historically tended to write their rules in very inefficient way that necessitated flipping back and forth a lot, so when you'd make up a roster for your army it tended to also serve as a quick reference for the majority of the rules you needed.

But I'm totally out of date with what people typically do these days.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 11:45:54


Post by: insaniak


Slipspace wrote:

"Nuclear option"? Seriously? Bringing a Codex to a tournament is the nuclear option now?

No, banning everyone from using copies because of one confirmed case of someone copying a friend's rulebook is the nuclear option.


Also, I think you're moving the goalposts here. You asked if the problem existed, the example of the OP shows it does, but you're still calling it a "hunch" that the problem exists. How many cases need to exist before TOs are allowed to ask for original versions of the rules?

Somewhere between 'one' and 'a lot'...

One example of someone copying rules they don't own does not demonstrate that there is a problem unless that one person is a significant percentage of the playerbase... in which case, there are probably bigger things than copyright infringement for the game's owner to be worrying about. In order for the copyright infringement to actually be a problem, IMO, there would have to be enough of it happening to be actually having an impact on the IP owner's bottom line. In other words, a significant number of people who would actually buy the rules if copies weren't an option need to be doing it.

Note that doesn't mean that copyright infringement is ok... just that it's often not worth the inconvenience of doing anything about it unless it's actually demonstrably harmful.


What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies.

I've met players who preferred to not take the original book to tournaments or other gaming events because they had previous books stolen at similar events. The bigger thing though is that when your army requires rules taken from multiple hardcover books, carrying them around and flicking through them when required is just a pain. I can totally understand people just copying the parts of the books they actually need.

For me, the ideal would honestly be players not having to bring their own rules in the first place, unless they feel they will need them. If you're playing in tournaments, it's on you to learn the relevant rules, and ideally the TO should have access to all of the rules in the case of disputes.


It's worth keeping in mind as well that it's not actually as big an issue for most as it may seem from reading a multiple page argument about it. It's easy to see an extended discussion and assume that it's something people are significantly invested in, as opposed to just the current topic that has captured their interest on a forum intended for that very purpose.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 11:56:21


Post by: Blackie


 insaniak wrote:

I've met players who preferred to not take the original book to tournaments or other gaming events because they had previous books stolen at similar events.


I prefer not to take original books anywhere because they're something more to carry and even with the best precautions the books show signs of being used if you handle them too often, and I hate it. My books never leave my place and I use them only for home gaming . It's much easier and time saving if all the rules are condensed in 10-20 pages. I also underline rules/statements that I constantly forget where they are in the codex but I would never do that to an original book.

Several people that I know do the exact same thing. But I'm not talking about events events or tournaments, just random games at stores or other players' homes.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 13:00:05


Post by: Stevefamine


Yes - years ago before people had smartphones regularly


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 13:44:02


Post by: catbarf


Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies. If you're claiming fair use you'll own the originals so what's the problem? I don't think it's really about a TO being overly worried about being sued but if the problem is minor yet the solution is also extremely simple while completely removing any potential legal issue at all why the resistance?


Personally, I'm fine with bringing books to a tournament. I wouldn't try to just bring copies because I can definitely understand it not being trustworthy.

However, to play my Tyranids, I need:
-Main rulebook
-Codex Tyranids
-Blood of Baal
-FAQ for the codex
-FAQ for the rulebook

Having to cross-reference multiple documents is logistically a pain when playing on a table that doesn't have any dead space for opened books. I much prefer to compile some quick reference material and staple it together in a binder with hand-written notes and references (figuring out which document changed a particular rule from the codex is a real pain) so that I can easily find the relevant info, while still having the books in my bag in case I'm challenged or the opponent just wants to see the original. It's a convenience thing.

Being denied that convenience for no good reason- because there isn't any demonstrable legal issue- is annoying. Not the end of the world, but 'I can't allow convenient photocopies or I'll be the first TO in the history of forever sued by GW for it' is an eye-roller.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 13:49:18


Post by: beast_gts


 insaniak wrote:
If you're playing in tournaments, it's on you to learn the relevant rules, and ideally the TO should have access to all of the rules in the case of disputes.


Now this is an interesting point - do you bring the codex, etc. as a rules reference for themselves, or show your opponent a rule or stat mid-game?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 14:20:49


Post by: Slipspace


 insaniak wrote:


If you're playing in tournaments, it's on you to learn the relevant rules, and ideally the TO should have access to all of the rules in the case of disputes.


You know what's a really easy way for a TO to do that? Ask everyone to bring a copy of their own rules so the TO can reference them. Seems especially true now given the vast number of rules sources available.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 14:27:42


Post by: Skinnereal


The 40k app should sort out the stats thing, for 9th.
Rules though, I hear the app is fairly rough with them.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 14:56:51


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Not to be a cad, but how do you legally purchase rules for units with out of print rules? If I want to run sisters of silence at a GW event, what would I need to bring? Where do I get/buy a "legal copy" of the WD from last year? Am I not allowed to run my sisters in my Custodes list because there is no way to prove I "own" the rules?

Another option would be for Sly Marbo. The only rules he ever got were with the box when I bought the model, maybe a WD from 2019 also?

I know this is picking at straws here, but the way GW has made copying books illegal is a dam made of tissue paper holding back Hurricane Katrina. It's going to fail.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 15:00:40


Post by: beast_gts


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Where do I get/buy a "legal copy" of the WD from last year?

The Warhammer Digital site has the back catalog of White Dwarf to purchase- https://www.warhammerdigital.com/White_Dwarf


 Skinnereal wrote:
The 40k app should sort out the stats thing, for 9th.
Rules though, I hear the app is fairly rough with them.

It's fine if you know what you're looking for - the search / browse is still a bit dodgy.
The issue with the app is needing an internet connection (and keeping it charged - but that applies to other electronic devices as well).


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 18:56:21


Post by: Ketara


I've run a few events in my time for various game systems. And I frankly couldn't give two hoots about whether or not someone photocopies their rules, recasts their models, uses a different brand of paints, or got into the game by illegally reading pirate e-copies of the fiction at home.

Why?

Because absolutely none of it is my business. Copyright infringement is a civil and not a criminal matter. If I witnessed criminal activity (vandalism, assault, sexual molestation, whatever), there would be an argument that I needed to report it to the police. The police in turn would then enforce the criminal law which would be heard in a criminal court. Criminal and civil are two very different systems of law, and there is a potential legal and moral onus on me to engage with criminal behaviour which does not follow into civil.

I do not have a responsibility, as a tournament organiser, to ensure that the trainers one of my attendees is wearing are genuine Nike. I do not have an obligation to make certain that the case they brought their models in does not infringe on a case patent held by Wilkinsons. I do not have any sort of need to ensure that the resin Kromlech components used on models do not infringe on Games Workshop's IP. All of these examples are legal questions between the company and the manufacturer of the supposedly infringing item and nothing to do with me.

I am not an accessory in any way, shape, or form as I did not help to manufacture the item. I am not a distributor as I am not helping the person give copies of that item away. I am merely sitting in the same room as someone and have absolutely no legal or moral duty to police what items other people have in their possession or choose to do with them. My interest, as a TO, is purely in making sure that everyone is working from the same page for my tournament. So, is the model on the table representative and recognisable of the appropriate unit in the game both players are engaging in? Are all players working to the previously identified common ruleset? And so on. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

The idea that I have some legal culpability for someone else reading a pirated photocopy whilst standing in my event is laughable. That is very much not how the law works.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 20:13:21


Post by: yukishiro1


I didn't read the whole thread, but just want to echo the prior comment re: how deeply silly it is to suggest that a TO might get into legal trouble if someone at their event is violating copyright with their copy of the rules. That is not at all a realistic fear. Don't take anyone who tells you that seriously, they clearly do not understand the basics of copyright and you should not be relying on their take.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/09 21:26:25


Post by: Lord Damocles


beast_gts wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Where do I get/buy a "legal copy" of the WD from last year?

The Warhammer Digital site has the back catalog of White Dwarf to purchase- https://www.warhammerdigital.com/White_Dwarf

They had more recent rules in War of the Spider.

Plus you get a name generator!


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/11 00:14:11


Post by: alextroy


All this talk about copyrights is interesting, but I thought the point of having each player bring a copy of their rules was so that the player, their opponent, and the TO can all reference them should there be any rules question or dispute. They generally expect the purchased hardcopy of the rules because any secondary source of the rules, like a photocopy or Battlescribe are too easily edited to the providers advantage.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/11 00:26:20


Post by: yukishiro1


Every book has a FAQ/errata that is in PDF, so it seems a bit odd to talk about how it's important to bring an original copy of the book because PDFs can be edited, when in fact it's the PDF that is the actual final authority on what the rule are, not said book.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/11 00:28:09


Post by: alextroy


Anyone with a smartphone can pull but the FAQ on GW's website anytime. You can't say the same for the codex.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/11 07:43:55


Post by: Slipspace


 alextroy wrote:
All this talk about copyrights is interesting, but I thought the point of having each player bring a copy of their rules was so that the player, their opponent, and the TO can all reference them should there be any rules question or dispute. They generally expect the purchased hardcopy of the rules because any secondary source of the rules, like a photocopy or Battlescribe are too easily edited to the providers advantage.


That's pretty much been my point the whole time. I'm still confused as to why anyone disagrees with this. Yes, FAQs and errata exist for pretty much every GW publication but they're all officially available via the website which is not the case for digital copies of the rules themselves.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/11 17:06:28


Post by: yukishiro1


Has anyone actually ever encountered anyone with doctored rules? I can't imagine you'd actually get anywhere like that at a tournament, you'd be relying on nobody else being there who knows your army well enough to know that whatever is being doctored isn't the real stat / wording / whatever. If someone like that does exist - I've neither met them nor ever heard about them at a major tournament - I don't think they're going to be deterred from cheating by having to bring hardcopy books. If anything, I'd prefer they get caught cheating by editing their PDF, that's way easier to catch someone on than to catch them on them cheating by moving stuff more than it should move, moving models when their opponent isn't looking, etc.

It seems like such a remote possibility to legislate based upon. The possibility of people cheating with weighted dice seems a bajillion times higher, yet no tournaments force you to use tournament-provided dice (except sometimes for the finals, and I think that's less to do with the possibility of cheating and more because they're streaming those games).


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/11 17:51:41


Post by: alextroy


The likelihood of it happening isn't the point. You know you are dealing with the correct rules if they have the actual publication in front of you.

Anytime I have a question about my rules or my opponent's rules, I want the rulebook not their BattleScribe printout. I know there is enough inaccuracies and paraphrasing in those that I want to see the real rules if I am calling them into question. I don't think my friends are trying to cheat me, I just don't trust unverifiable sources when I am concerned about the exact wording.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/11 18:13:50


Post by: yukishiro1


Summary vs actual rules is a different question than whether you demand said rules be in the original hardcopy book, as opposed to a binder with photocopies, or in a PDF on their phone, or whatever else. The idea that you wouldn't accept anything but a hard copy because of the possibility it could be doctored just strikes me as a bit silly in a game where trust plays such a huge role. If you can't trust someone not to use a doctored PDF or photocopies, how can you possibly trust them not to use weighted dice?





As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/12 06:35:11


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


yukishiro1 wrote:
Summary vs actual rules is a different question than whether you demand said rules be in the original hardcopy book, as opposed to a binder with photocopies, or in a PDF on their phone, or whatever else. The idea that you wouldn't accept anything but a hard copy because of the possibility it could be doctored just strikes me as a bit silly in a game where trust plays such a huge role. If you can't trust someone not to use a doctored PDF or photocopies, how can you possibly trust them not to use weighted dice?





That was my point earlier in the thread. Yes, someone could modify rules when they copy it, but it'd actually be a terrible way of cheating because so many people have the rules memorised that you'd very quickly be found out.

I remember years ago in a casual game someone tried to cheat by changing rules while playing a friend of mine (they didn't have the book on them, they were going from "memory"), but unfortunately for the cheater they were playing Lizardmen, and because I played Lizardmen also my friend had mostly memorised the rules and called him out for it. In that case it wasn't copied rules, the guy was just pretending he forgot his book but he supposedly knew rules by heart.

If the same thing happened and the person had doctored copies of the rules, it'd simply mean there was physical evidence of his cheating instead of just blaming his bad memory, lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Summary vs actual rules is a different question than whether you demand said rules be in the original hardcopy book, as opposed to a binder with photocopies, or in a PDF on their phone, or whatever else. The idea that you wouldn't accept anything but a hard copy because of the possibility it could be doctored just strikes me as a bit silly in a game where trust plays such a huge role. If you can't trust someone not to use a doctored PDF or photocopies, how can you possibly trust them not to use weighted dice?


Yeah, you have a summary of the rules alongside your roster and then a scan / photo / copy of the relevant pages of the book in case questions come up.

Some of the Forge World books have only a few pages of relevant rules for hundreds of pages of fluff, pictures, etc, and the books are often expensive and large to go carrying around. So in that I've always just photographed the pages, turned it into a PDF and either had it on my phone or a tablet (though admittedly at casual games rather than tournies).



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/12 07:58:59


Post by: Illumini


 alextroy wrote:
The likelihood of it happening isn't the point. You know you are dealing with the correct rules if they have the actual publication in front of you.

Anytime I have a question about my rules or my opponent's rules, I want the rulebook not their BattleScribe printout. I know there is enough inaccuracies and paraphrasing in those that I want to see the real rules if I am calling them into question. I don't think my friends are trying to cheat me, I just don't trust unverifiable sources when I am concerned about the exact wording.


You should take the likelihood of something happening into account when deciding to worry or not. This is something that goes in the "do not worry", because the chance of someone cheating like this is so low, and the impact is also not really important.

While I haven`t played 9th at all, in all earlier versions of 40k, something being in the book is not actually a guarantee that it is correct. Things get FAQed, errataed, and overwritten by newer publications.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/12 12:19:12


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/12 23:38:54


Post by: alextroy


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.
That would happen exactly once in a game with me. I would quickly tell them to leave their hits on the table until I can look at them or this game is over/I'm calling over a judge.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/13 13:53:10


Post by: Azuza001


 alextroy wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.
That would happen exactly once in a game with me. I would quickly tell them to leave their hits on the table until I can look at them or this game is over/I'm calling over a judge.



Yeah, our local club fixed this by putting dice rolling boxes at each table. Dice doesn't count if it's not in the box, and the box is in a position where everyone can see. This has fixed 90% of the dice issues of "hey, you rolled the dice over there behind the terrain and I can't see it but you said it hit and then picked it up before I could see...." that the wacc people like to try.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/13 15:48:20


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


For what its worth I checked our local tourney Player Pack. "You must have the Codex available (hardcopy or digital) to provide to your opponent as needed." Doesn't get into scanned vs original hard copy. I can't recall it ever coming up?

If someone did doctor a copy that is some deep level deception with malice of forethought worthy of a perma-ban. Much worse that bad die-rolling or forgetting/misplaying a rule.

Anyhoo.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/13 16:30:33


Post by: beast_gts


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
If someone did doctor a copy that is some deep level deception with malice of forethought worthy of a perma-ban. Much worse that bad die-rolling or forgetting/misplaying a rule.

The couple of times I know people have been caught doing this, they've all pleaded ignorance - "it was like that when I downloaded it!" (despite them bringing the units that had T or W added...)


Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, our local club fixed this by putting dice rolling boxes at each table. Dice doesn't count if it's not in the box, and the box is in a position where everyone can see. This has fixed 90% of the dice issues of "hey, you rolled the dice over there behind the terrain and I can't see it but you said it hit and then picked it up before I could see...." that the wacc people like to try.

Yeah, dice boxes / trays work - and if they're using more that one set of dice a TO keeps an eye on them. My pet peeve is people who mix dice with logos on the 1 and 6.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/13 16:43:14


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


beast_gts wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
If someone did doctor a copy that is some deep level deception with malice of forethought worthy of a perma-ban. Much worse that bad die-rolling or forgetting/misplaying a rule.

The couple of times I know people have been caught doing this, they've all pleaded ignorance - "it was like that when I downloaded it!" (despite them bringing the units that had T or W added...)


Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, our local club fixed this by putting dice rolling boxes at each table. Dice doesn't count if it's not in the box, and the box is in a position where everyone can see. This has fixed 90% of the dice issues of "hey, you rolled the dice over there behind the terrain and I can't see it but you said it hit and then picked it up before I could see...." that the wacc people like to try.

Yeah, dice boxes / trays work - and if they're using more that one set of dice a TO keeps an eye on them. My pet peeve is people who mix dice with logos on the 1 and 6.


Where did they download it from? Toward the end of 8th there were a number of FAQs that altered not just points but basic stats. It was a bit messy. Since the FAQs were free and available on the GW site I can't see how one would accidently download a doctored copy?

Regarding dice, my GW Dark Angels dice have both a skull and a DA symbol. Annoying design choice on GW's part, but I declare which is which to my opponent at the start of the game. The 1st Edition Battlefront dice for Flames of War had army symbols for the 1. Then they made sets with the army symbol for the 6. What a mess. I am actually not a fan of dice trays. Roll'em out in the open on the table for all to see.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/13 19:14:55


Post by: catbarf


beast_gts wrote:
The couple of times I know people have been caught doing this, they've all pleaded ignorance - "it was like that when I downloaded it!" (despite them bringing the units that had T or W added...)


Players altering stats is much less of a problem than players and TOs being unwilling to confront an obvious cheater.

Make it clear that any discrepancy is grounds for automatic disqualification and actually enforce it and it won't be an issue. If someone brings a printout, it's on them to make sure it's actually correct.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/13 19:48:04


Post by: stratigo


 Rob Lee wrote:
The question isn't about whether or not people might cheat or if other players would call you out on it and I'm not sure why that's even being brought up, other than to dodge the real issue...

...which is legal liability as a TO.

Looking at it from the pov of a TO, unless someone brings their codices with them, either as GW's epubs or physical books, I can't tell if a copy is of a book the person owns or not.

So, do I take the risk of having people in my tournament, using copies of books that they don't own, which basically boils down to piracy, or do I insist people not use copies unless they prove they own the originals?

Rhetorical question.

What the OP has described, i.e. the TO raising an eyebrow (as he was right to do) to the OP's scanned/printed copy, of the Marine codex, "copied from a friend", thus presumably the OP doesn't own the original and presumably wasn't/isn't able to produce an original if asked to, boils down to a legality issue for the TO, meaning copyright laws in the TO's country and whether or not they as TO and/or they're tournament's players want to abide by the law.

Shouldn't be any question or doubt over it.


EDITED for spelling and clarity.


Mate, you aren't legally liable for other people's copyright violations

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Well, was not aware the intensity of legality in regards to TOing. Clearly none of my friends care when we play, but yes I can imagine a larger tournament being more strict about it.


I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.


There's no legality, TOs aren't liable for other people pirating books

Heck, a TO can go up to someone and go "You should pirate all the books GW makes" at their event and... they still aren't liable if the person does it.

I dunno why people think they would have legal liability for piracy other people commit if they just happen to see a pirated document or run an event with people who have a pirated document.

beast_gts wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I wonder how many players GW has sued for using a printed/PDF at a tournament. Or how many TOs they have removed for allowing such a rule. I'm guessing not many, but still not a risk TOs want.

I don't know about sued, but it's one of the things that can get a store blacklisted by GW (so they can't buy product direct from them).


This is an actual credible threat, but GW, uh.... doesn't have book checkers even at the very biggest events. And their event team doesn't give that much a gak about it. I suspect providing legal rules is, well, a contingent part of receiving GW support for an even, but also it isn't something they actually check. So, like, don't go up to the GW event team and go "I AM STEALING YOUR RULES AND THE TO IS COOL WITH IT BITCHES!"

 oni wrote:
I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.

A lot of these comments about piracy are laughable.

The issue is one of respect, propriety and expectation. None of the nonsense above.

If <person> has done everything expected of them to properly play the game (e.g. purchased book, correct models, etc.) then <person> expects all other participants to do the same, but if other participants do not it is a breach of etiquette.

Imagine if you will... You're invited to a cookout and everyone is asked to bring a food item to share, but someone shows up with only the half eaten bag of chips from their pantry. It highlights that persons lack of caring which is disrespectful to the others and it falls short of the expectation of the conventional requirement of the social behavior.

Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.


Coming to an event with 5 to 6 different rulebooks fething sucks, increases the load of transport, particularly for people traveling by air, and is an all around hassle.

Boy I wish the 40k app wasn't a huge trash fire and worth a sub. Oh and that you could just purchase rules digitally and not this double dipping bs of "oh you get a code in the hard copy we are making you buy". feth that noise, and feth GW for trying it.


 Rob Lee wrote:
 oni wrote:
I'm very curious to know where a lot of you passed the Bar to be able to advise on copyright law and who is or is not complicit.


Same place as you did only I'm not using spurious analogies to ignorantly dismiss what could be a serious issue if it ever reaches courts. Copyright issues surrounding what people can and can't do with media/content are frequently reaching the courts and we've seen quite a few landmark cases in recent years. It is something to be very much aware of and not to be dismissed as laughable.


I'll just leave this here, I can't find a similar source for the US at this time, but I highly doubt US law is any different -

https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/private-copying/

Under UK Copyright Law, end users can make ‘personal copies for private use’ of content they ‘lawfully acquired on a permanent basis’. This means that it is lawful to make copies of materials you have purchased, received as a gift or downloaded from legal sources. However, it is not permitted to copy content borrowed from a friend, rented or unlawfully obtained.


Note the highlighted part of that paragraph.

Now, the OP has clearly stated he has copied the Marine codex from "a friend".

Which in UK law is not permitted. I doubt it is under US law either. Please feel free to prove me wrong with another spurious analogy about bags of chips though.



But that doesn't mean that you, as a TO, are somehow liable for the illegal actions of two people who are playing in your tournament.

Now if you are taking the moral stance of "all piracy is so bad that I won't even countenance the possibility of it, original hard copies only" then, like, say that. Don't warble about how you have to worry about liability as a TO. Ya don't.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
...which is legal liability as a TO.


But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.

 Rob Lee wrote:
Surprised Dakka allow such discussions to be honest, seeing as piracy is essentially what is being discussed.
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 oni wrote:
Coming to a game, organized event or not, with a printed PDF or similar of the needed book(s) is akin to being that person who showed up to the cookout with the half eaten bag of chips.

That is an absurd analogy, it's nothing akin to that at all, it generally takes MORE effort to create print outs or scans of your books, you do it because you don't want to carry around a $100, 100 page book for the sake of a handful of pages of rules.


The police give no feths about pursuing copyright violations, and no police officer will arrest you for it. They got other things to do, and if they are feeling like an donkey-cave, they don't need a pretext to find a reason to harass you. It's a job for lawyers.
 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But is it? Surely the legal liability would be with the individual using the copied book, not the TO.

Legally speaking, I would have thought it's enough for a person to say to a TO to verbally check that they own a copy, not for them to produce the original. I'm absolutely not a lawyer trying to make legal advice, but it just seems to me that at that point it's not the responsibility of the TO to force the person to produce physical evidence, that sounds like a job for the Popo.


Would you as a TO, club owner, FLGS owner, or other business owner or even premises owner involved, like to test the idea that you're not responsible in the courts?

I think any sane, intelligent, business person/club owner/tournament event organiser would say no and err on the side of caution, be that through asking for evidence, or a blanket refusal of allowing copies to be used, the latter obviously being the easier route.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Obviously what the OP said is wrong, you shouldn't be copying a friend's book, but I think the discussion agreed to that pretty early on and have shifted to the more general discussion of not using original copies of books, be they print outs or digital scans of a book they already own.


Yeah I get that.


Hahaha, wow.

Actually plenty of TOs world wide test this regularly in their events, because they really don't have the energy or care to hunt down every single person playing in an event and demand they produce an original copy of the rules. Do you go up to every player in your events and demand they produce a copy of the rules? Like, how small are your events that you do this?
 Rob Lee wrote:
Yeah I know times are tough. Your best bet is to go buy the book for yourself. That way you know you arse is covered. Shared ownership? Doubt that'd hold any water.


Wait wait, what if his friend gives him the book or *legasp* lets him... borrow the hard copy to play with? Mein gott, that's illegal! Better demand they show you the receipts too

Voss wrote:
That's an interesting take. I've never seen google provide the complete text and context of a rule. I certainly wouldn't trust anyone who pulled that out of their pocket in a key moment during a tournament.


it's cause people playing know most of the rules and ultimately in a dispute, the TO just makes a ruling and everyone moves on even if the TO is wrong. Spending time haggling over rules and pulling up FAQ PDFs eats too much tournament time, and few if any top players will bother, though low level wannabes might ruin your game with this sort of nonsense.

 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.


Copyright infringement, as serious as being a drug dealer. And all TOs suck. Better tell Reece he's a bad TO for not personally checking every rule in his multiple hundred person events
 insaniak wrote:
How about both of you just knock it off. You're both saying the same thing while insisting the other guy is wrong. Clearly the communication isn't getting through here. Just let it go.


Come on, let's not pretend someone's complete insanity is just one side of an argument.
Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's a pain in the ass and GW offers digital alternatives. I mean, if TOs say "you have to use GW's app", fine, whatever, it's a trashfire and its monetization is immoral as feth, but that's not on the TO.

Slipspace wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:


Personally, I think a TO requiring everyone in the tournament to prove they own a legitimate version of every book by producing the paper book or the receipt is massively over the top



Why? What's unreasonable about saying to players they need to bring the original copies of the books rather than scanned copies? I'm not saying TOs absolutely should do it, but I've seen more than one tournament pack with that stipulation and I've never heard any complaints from players about it. A TO marching down the rows of tables demanding to see everyone's books is a little OTT but having it as a requirement seems entirely reasonable to me.


It's not unreasonable, but it's unnecessary. I cannot fathom any cause of action GW could have against a Tournament organizer when a player used a copied rulebook.

A TO demanding "proof" that a player buys his rules isn't protecting himself, but simping hard for GW. Which is fine, and arguably reasonable, but not necassary.


It's not unreasonable but it's somehow "simping hard for GW". Yeah, think you may be way off the mark there. In case you missed the point before charging in with your weird accusations, I was merely pointing out that requesting players bring an original copy of the rules they intend to use is not an abnormal request in any tournament pack I can think of.

It's got nothing to do with a TO protecting themselves from copyright lawsuits or protecting the profit margin of GW, it's just standard practice that I've never seen anyone bat an eyelid over. Nobody's taking anyone to court over a scanned copy of the rules at an event but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.


As someone who fell hard into the vtuber hole, there's nothing wrong with being a simp.

Simp away my dudes.

But GW requires an increasingly large amount of books to play any one army, and it is tedious to cart around and asking people to do so verse just using what digital options are available is a dick move to players.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
but as a TO I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in arguments over the legitimacy of a rule because someone doesn't have the original hard copy or legitimate digital version on them.
But is that something that is likely to happen?

To me it just seems like people are worried other people might use copied rules to cheat, but in reality I think people wouldn't do it because so many gamers have the rules memorised that you'd quite quickly get caught out.



Probably not, but I think the idea that a TO making the request to have the original rules when you attend their tournament falls a long way short of simping for GW, which is what I was accused of.
Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Polonius wrote:
I didn't accuse you of simpling, unless you're also a TO, in which case, sure. But when original rules, especially for older armies, are so errated up, I"m not sure I 100% see the value. Battlescribe is more accurate than nearly all of the codices, so if you're actually concerned with accuracy, asking players to bring their books accomplishes little other than making them prove they bought their own books. Hence, the simping.



Even if someone doesn't give two hoots about GW I think the other reason is maybe if folk are concerned people aren't buying books from stores, particularly if a tournament is supported by or conducted at a local store.


Stores make their cheddar off models, not books.


 Polonius wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Photocopies are legal. Photocopies of books you don't own are not.


The first is probably legal, the second is probably illegal. That's the thing with this stuff, it's just not as clear as people on either side want to think.

It's obviously not illegal to sometimes make photocopies of copyrighted material, otherwise libraries wouldn't have copy machines.

And we know we can't scan, print, and bind up copies of books and resell them.

What's legal is somewhere in there.

Look at a codex. Is even half of it actually rules? cut out the crusade stuff and the points values, and you're left with half of the Space Marine codex. If you are smarter still, and only include those datasheets you plan on using, the startegems, the general rules, and the points from CA2020, you might only be carrying 20 pages of photocopies out of a 200 page book. is that fair use? Probably not?

The reality is that outside of the napster years with DRM, there just haven't been a lot of cases of rights holders filing suit against individuals with copied works for personal use. And even in the napster cases, the people they sued didn't just downloaded, but "published" (shared) the works.

Remember that copyright is a federal matter. This doesn't go to small claims or mayor's court, a real corporation would have to hire an attorney to file a complaint in federal court against a person for making a photocopy of their rules for a friend. One of the few ironclad rules of the federal courts is that judges hate cases that waste their time, which this 100% does. then the person becomes a minor cause celebre because they are being bullied by a multinational corporation over a few photocopies. All of this, for, best case, $750 in statutory damages. I'm not here to say that this will never happen, but I'd buy comet insurance before I'd worry about being sued over a few dittoed rules. Mostly because copyright does not, and cannot, protect facts, information, data, or ideas. It can only protect the expression of that idea. Rules and manuals are notoriously difficult to protect by copyright.

I think a lot of people think that the law is simple (it's not) and the threats/concerns are complex (they aren't). Copyright law is incredibly complicated, and nobody is in a hurry to actually take a case to court over personal photocopies of rules. There simply is no threat.



Yeah but Nintendo. Check mate.



 catbarf wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
You're telling me what I'm thinking. You're telling me "You're extremely concerned about one specific type".

Thank you for telling me that, I'm glad I can rely on you to tell me what I'm thinking.

The topic was about books, so, yeah, my comments have been in reference to copyright infringement regarding books.


Okay. Let's make this simple.

Do you think TOs need to be worried about forms of copyright infringement other than books?

If not, why not?

 Rob Lee wrote:
Sorry what?! You're either not "pro-infringement" or you are.


I'm against copyright infringement.

I'm also against TOs taking it upon themselves to ban all potentially copyright infringing content over dubious fears of lawsuits.


I mean I am against TOs banned legal activities because they are donkey-caves too.
 catbarf wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand is why there's then a problem with asking people to bring their original rules rather than copies. If you're claiming fair use you'll own the originals so what's the problem? I don't think it's really about a TO being overly worried about being sued but if the problem is minor yet the solution is also extremely simple while completely removing any potential legal issue at all why the resistance?


Personally, I'm fine with bringing books to a tournament. I wouldn't try to just bring copies because I can definitely understand it not being trustworthy.

However, to play my Tyranids, I need:
-Main rulebook
-Codex Tyranids
-Blood of Baal
-FAQ for the codex
-FAQ for the rulebook

Having to cross-reference multiple documents is logistically a pain when playing on a table that doesn't have any dead space for opened books. I much prefer to compile some quick reference material and staple it together in a binder with hand-written notes and references (figuring out which document changed a particular rule from the codex is a real pain) so that I can easily find the relevant info, while still having the books in my bag in case I'm challenged or the opponent just wants to see the original. It's a convenience thing.

Being denied that convenience for no good reason- because there isn't any demonstrable legal issue- is annoying. Not the end of the world, but 'I can't allow convenient photocopies or I'll be the first TO in the history of forever sued by GW for it' is an eye-roller.


For an event you'll also need the missions and points cost books
Slipspace wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
All this talk about copyrights is interesting, but I thought the point of having each player bring a copy of their rules was so that the player, their opponent, and the TO can all reference them should there be any rules question or dispute. They generally expect the purchased hardcopy of the rules because any secondary source of the rules, like a photocopy or Battlescribe are too easily edited to the providers advantage.


That's pretty much been my point the whole time. I'm still confused as to why anyone disagrees with this. Yes, FAQs and errata exist for pretty much every GW publication but they're all officially available via the website which is not the case for digital copies of the rules themselves.


GW used to allow you to purchase rules for 40k through their sight (even if they used the distinctly inferior EPUB format).

Now they make you use a trashfire and still buy a hardcopy instead. Cause they don't know how to make an app and know buying their rules is a bs exercise anyways, so why not milk as much as possible?
 alextroy wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone is losing their heads about doctored photo copies rules, while the WAAC power gamer is fast rolling 40 dice and picking up 3s, 4s, and 5s, and counting them as hits and or saves. I've had way more problem with shady rolls then I ever had with someone's rules not being in proper military format.
That would happen exactly once in a game with me. I would quickly tell them to leave their hits on the table until I can look at them or this game is over/I'm calling over a judge.


People do use weighted dice all the time. Not, like, doctored to be weighted, just getting a feel for which of their dice is poorly made in a way that rolls higher. The more neurotic even test to see which of their dice is badly weighted in beneficial ways


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/14 17:27:23


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


also, I can introduce you to people who can proffesionally roll dice and routinely get tossed out of casinos. I have seen videos of people who can throw sixes on command. It's not random. Dice throwing is a skill. A Dice cup is the only way to avoid that.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/15 11:50:27


Post by: Nurglitch


There's dice-rolling apps for phones too.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/15 13:56:20


Post by: ninjafiredragon


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
also, I can introduce you to people who can proffesionally roll dice and routinely get tossed out of casinos. I have seen videos of people who can throw sixes on command. It's not random. Dice throwing is a skill. A Dice cup is the only way to avoid that.


Sounds larger than life to me. Doesn't closed, cupped hands, and shaking, act in the same way a dice cup does? Assuming the proffesional dice roller isnt using slide-of-hand, weighted dice or other sneaky bull to get away with it. And if rolling dice truly is a skill, I need to work on it, I roll too many ones


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/15 14:04:26


Post by: beast_gts


Nurglitch wrote:
There's dice-rolling apps for phones too.

I've got the official GW one, yet people still get salty when I try to use it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
also, I can introduce you to people who can proffesionally roll dice and routinely get tossed out of casinos. I have seen videos of people who can throw sixes on command. It's not random. Dice throwing is a skill. A Dice cup is the only way to avoid that.


Sounds larger than life to me. Doesn't closed, cupped hands, and shaking, act in the same way a dice cup does? Assuming the proffesional dice roller isnt using slide-of-hand, weighted dice or other sneaky bull to get away with it. And if rolling dice truly is a skill, I need to work on it, I roll too many ones


Yes, and they can't do it with more than one or two dice at a time.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/15 14:21:37


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/15 16:19:59


Post by: LunarSol


What I learned over time as a TO is questions like this are less about legality or even the potential for cheating and more about the atmosphere of the event itself. Events are a social thing; and as much as the job of a TO is making sure that the rules are followed, its also important to make sure that everyone feels at ease and fairly treated in an inherently confrontational setting.

So, a lot of it comes down to the motivation of players asking for an exception. They're asking for special treatment, why? Is it fair for me to allow them to skirt around something that everyone else adhered to or will that just breed resentment? Are they the kind of person that sees inconvenient rules as something to ignore and is that going to make them a bad opponent?

Unfortunately that's all really subjective. Proxy's often fall into the same camp. It's hard to write hard rules for this stuff, because the best way to make everyone feel they're treated fairly is to have strict guidelines with no exceptions. Realistically though, that excludes a lot of potential fun, which is where it all becomes a judgement call. Does this exception add to the enjoyment of the event? In the case of proxies and conversions, 99% of the time, absolutely. New players trying to fit in? Probably worth allowing.

Events are a result of players collective contributions, both financially and socially. When someone looks for an exception, the first thing they should ask is "what am I contributing that justifies being treated differently?" The answer is probably just a new friend to play games with, but taking the time to consider the impression you leave on your opponents is a big part of making sure that's the case.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/15 16:59:34


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 LunarSol wrote:
What I learned over time as a TO is questions like this are less about legality or even the potential for cheating and more about the atmosphere of the event itself. Events are a social thing; and as much as the job of a TO is making sure that the rules are followed, its also important to make sure that everyone feels at ease and fairly treated in an inherently confrontational setting.

So, a lot of it comes down to the motivation of players asking for an exception. They're asking for special treatment, why? Is it fair for me to allow them to skirt around something that everyone else adhered to or will that just breed resentment? Are they the kind of person that sees inconvenient rules as something to ignore and is that going to make them a bad opponent?

Unfortunately that's all really subjective. Proxy's often fall into the same camp. It's hard to write hard rules for this stuff, because the best way to make everyone feel they're treated fairly is to have strict guidelines with no exceptions. Realistically though, that excludes a lot of potential fun, which is where it all becomes a judgement call. Does this exception add to the enjoyment of the event? In the case of proxies and conversions, 99% of the time, absolutely. New players trying to fit in? Probably worth allowing.

Events are a result of players collective contributions, both financially and socially. When someone looks for an exception, the first thing they should ask is "what am I contributing that justifies being treated differently?" The answer is probably just a new friend to play games with, but taking the time to consider the impression you leave on your opponents is a big part of making sure that's the case.


Excellent post! Some wise advice for Tournament Organizers. I've been a TO for Flames of War, and the pre-game requests for exceptions to things (painting/WSYWIG etc) were something I had not considered before they started coming in. Fairness has to be the guiding principle, and you are absolutely correct that is a judgement call. That is often harder than making a ruling on a rules question that comes up during the game.

Is there a Tournament Organizer Corner of Dakka?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 03:14:40


Post by: stratigo


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 03:19:11


Post by: yukishiro1


That's a remarkably slanderous accusation to make without pretty compelling evidence. Do you have any?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 03:48:26


Post by: KingmanHighborn


I know there's a test you can do with water that checks the 'balance' of the die, but it's more of a slight odds improvement, and not a slam dunk. I imagine 'that guy' and WAACers do that.

But I've never heard of a specific person doing it to win an event. Someone told one you could microwave dice too, but that seems dubious to me.

More to the topic, if I was a TO, sure I'd allow a scanned dex. If I was a GW employee, I wouldn't. As it stands if I was to play in this day and age. I'd just play off battlescribe as it is.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 06:29:29


Post by: PaddyMick


I'm doing a non-primaris space marine army that's mainly tactical squads. If anyone with the codex wants to tear out about 4 data sheets you will never use and send them to me, it would be much appreciated, and save me £25 and a stiff back from hauling that tome around.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 08:05:56


Post by: Slipspace


stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 10:11:27


Post by: Illumini


Slipspace wrote:
stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.


I´ve run into a player or two in my 15 years of gaming who had special dice for certain circumstances. While they did seem to roll well with those, I did not feel like I could call them on cheating or demand that they didn´t use their lucky dice, as they could just as likely be just that, superstition from the player. The few examples I have run into with questionable dice were also not "top" players.

2/3rds of "top" players cheating with dice is a ridiculous claim, much like the insane claims about risk of being sued for copyright as a TO.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 10:26:03


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Slipspace wrote:
stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.


It's pretty easy to get away with. You don't boldly announce you are changing dice, you just have your dice grouped together and pay attention to which part of the group you put certain dice. It'd be so easy to just put high rollers on one side, low rollers on another, then random dice on the other side to the middle. People aren't going to notice you pulling from different parts of your dice pool depending on what result you want. You could even shuffle the pool occasionally (keeping track of where different dice went) to further hide it.

It would be difficult to spot, and even if you do spot it, it'd be a pain in the arse to prove (you gonna take their dice and roll them 500 times to prove they're cheating?).

I've known some people who openly say they're superstitious, and put their "lucky" dice aside, but you could just as easily do it secretly without people noticing.

Of course the 2/3rds comment is just out of thin air, but I'm sure there's some people out there that do it.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 12:27:09


Post by: Turnip Jedi


stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


As recent events have shown you don't need 'lucky' dice or mad sleight of hand dice chucking, just normal dice and handling the truth awkward


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 18:57:02


Post by: stratigo


 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I know there's a test you can do with water that checks the 'balance' of the die, but it's more of a slight odds improvement, and not a slam dunk. I imagine 'that guy' and WAACers do that.

But I've never heard of a specific person doing it to win an event. Someone told one you could microwave dice too, but that seems dubious to me.

More to the topic, if I was a TO, sure I'd allow a scanned dex. If I was a GW employee, I wouldn't. As it stands if I was to play in this day and age. I'd just play off battlescribe as it is.


It's not uncommon, but more realistically people notice which dice tend to roll higher and assign it as their "lucky" die they break out for a key roll. Or everyone buying up and then using the same dice pack in a tournament.

The lucky die thing is super common though.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
stratigo wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I would rather have a few dice-rolling sharks out there (what exactly is on the line?) than overly regulate dice rolling among wargamers.


I'd say probably two thirds or more of the top players in any GW game have a set of dice they know is off balance in their favor and will break out for key rolls.


I'd say that's completely made up bullgak. Even if it were true (which it isn't) I don't think any player's going to get away with swapping dice every time they come to a key roll.


It's pretty easy to get away with. You don't boldly announce you are changing dice, you just have your dice grouped together and pay attention to which part of the group you put certain dice. It'd be so easy to just put high rollers on one side, low rollers on another, then random dice on the other side to the middle. People aren't going to notice you pulling from different parts of your dice pool depending on what result you want. You could even shuffle the pool occasionally (keeping track of where different dice went) to further hide it.

It would be difficult to spot, and even if you do spot it, it'd be a pain in the arse to prove (you gonna take their dice and roll them 500 times to prove they're cheating?).

I've known some people who openly say they're superstitious, and put their "lucky" dice aside, but you could just as easily do it secretly without people noticing.

Of course the 2/3rds comment is just out of thin air, but I'm sure there's some people out there that do it.



Two thirds is indeed a gut feeling. Mostly this is coming out of a couple of ME SBG events I been at, where there are fewer rolls done at any one time and I noticed how many people, especially at the top, were rolling statistically well and all had the same handful of dice sets.



But the fact is, most dice played with isn't well balanced, and that leaves it open for being curated.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 19:57:59


Post by: PaddyMick


There are some sweet multi-quoting skills on display in this thread.

Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 19:59:27


Post by: beast_gts


 PaddyMick wrote:
Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)


Check the event pack or with the TO. For example, the London GT pack says you must bring "-Rules, including core rule book, codices, indices and any FAQs relevant to your army".



Just noticed this in the London GT pack as well:
USING YOUR OPPONENTS DICE
Please note that in the interest of fairness, all dice used in a game may be rolled by either player. You are not permitted to refuse your opponent if they ask to use some of the dice you are using and vice versa.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 20:56:08


Post by: PaddyMick


Cheers. I guess printed faqs, downloaded from gw would be ok then, and I reckon you would need the latest faq's for the core rules too. I'm guessing army lists must be submitted beforehand electronically and also printed for your opponent as well. Depending on the tournament of course.

Personally i'll need a cheat sheet too I reckon, or some cards or some such, and some little flags for the terrain with keywords on them, to keep track of everything.

Wargaming sure got a lot more slick and professional in the last 25 years. I've played (at clubs, not tournaments, obvs) where no-one had a rule book and only half of us had read one.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 20:59:27


Post by: beast_gts


 PaddyMick wrote:
I'm guessing army lists must be submitted beforehand electronically and also printed for your opponent as well. Depending on the tournament of course.


Yep - I think London GT uses the Best Coast Pairings app for list submission, and their pack says to bring "-2 copies of your army list. One for yourself and your opponents, and one for the judges who will walk around during the event to collect these."


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/20 21:00:00


Post by: yukishiro1


The vast majority of tournaments just say you have to bring copies of the relevant rules, they don't specify what format it has to be in. Precisely to avoid getting into these sorts of issues. "Don't ask, don't tell" re: where the rule came from is a lot easier for everyone.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/21 18:30:13


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I just heard about TJ Lannigan's cheating at the Texas major....and in investigating that, learned about Spikey Bits, With Matt's cheating scandal. And Wyatt as well apparently. Consider that sub canceled. I guess I knew it was an issue, but I never knew it was the top players. I always thought it was the mid level guys.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/21 19:41:45


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Not going to lie, it seems the flavor of the week when caught cheating is to immediately flood the net with accusations of "death threat bombardment" and cry foul. Matt from Spikey Bits did it and is doing it now when anyone brings up his scandel. TJ started claiming it before it was announced he was punished. And then his apoligy was basically, "Please stop threatening me". I understand threats like this are serious and should be taken seriously, but there is never any proof but reddit comments (Might as well point to 4chan) and they instantly get the moral high ground. TJ is a scum bag and Matt was as well. Please stop playing the victim card as soon as you get caught cheating and get banned.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/21 19:50:53


Post by: yukishiro1


The two just don't relate to one another. Someone shouldn't get death threats for cheating, but just because they are doesn't mean you should be more sympathetic to how they cheated in the first place. It's neither here nor there.

TJ has apologized and promised to fix himself (though tbh I'm not completely convinced from his statement, especially given how it took a week for him to say anything). You don't have to forgive him, and I would certainly watch carefully in any future interaction you might have, but I do hope people will keep an open enough mind to recognize the possibility for redemption. Sometimes people really do change after being caught and punished because it serves as a wake-up call; not often, but it does happen.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/22 11:49:35


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Well said, and I agree with most of what you say. I just want to make it clear I disagree with Matt on the Long War Podcast instantly shutting down any attempt at discussion of his involvement in cheating by responding to EVERY comment in the youtube video chat with "Please don't firebomb my house". It smacks of dramaqueen, and prevents a honest discussion of events.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/22 14:53:58


Post by: LunarSol


Honestly, I imagine any amount of death threats feels like a bombardment. There's a lot of unhinged people on the net and suddenly realizing you're publicly exposed to these people is pretty terrifying. There's no excuse for taking things that far.

Not that I have any sympathy otherwise. I've run enough events where I had to deal with this kind of player and... IDK. Usually they seem like really nice people, but the lengths they'll go to win a game of toy soldiers is almost impossible to reconcile. I think that's the part that makes it so hard to believe that they'll ever change; it feels like it was all a farce to begin with.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/22 19:04:44


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/22 19:32:14


Post by: PaddyMick


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.


Exalted. Prize money is not needed. GW cheque book and pen, or just BFH would be enough*

*see british game shows


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/22 19:53:25


Post by: beast_gts


 PaddyMick wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.


Exalted. Prize money is not needed. GW cheque book and pen, or just BFH would be enough*

*see british game shows


My gaming club ended up buying a load of army boxes and breaking them down for prizes (along with hobby supplies) as even GW / FLGS vouchers were causing issues.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/22 21:17:46


Post by: gorgon


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.


Well, in the earlier days of the US GWGTs, there was no prize support at all...not even merch. You got a trophy, maybe a little publicity from the company, and some bragging rights.

I know...shut up, old man. But considering what people pay to attend GTs...does even a little bit of merch matter? We've seen top players attempt to monetize their tourney wins by offering coaching lessons, and pro painters advertise their services through their best painted wins and such. Now clearly there's a big difference between the big events and more local ones. Some nice prizes can make the smaller ones feel 'bigger' and that's cool and good. But if you win, say, Adepticon or the LV Open...isn't that enough on its own, especially these days?

To be clear, I'm not saying it would eliminate cheating. That happened at times in the early days also, when it was only about cred. And now cred is far bigger and can be more readily turned into profit. But I have to think it'd make a dent, at least. Maybe not for those people who attend with a clear plan to cheat, but for those little moments in games when someone might be tempted if there's a lot of cash on the line.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/22 22:28:39


Post by: yukishiro1


I really don't think people cheat for money; even if you win every event you go to in 40k, you don't even make back the money you spend. They do it for ego reasons.

I do think having monetary prizes does tend to promote bad behavior, though, not so much because people really want to cheat to get the money as because it sets a certain tone for the event as a whole.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/24 04:39:36


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


People cheat even in casual games. If anything I wonder if a tournament environment would discourage it because cheaters would know their opponents are going to be more attentive and there'll be more heat for getting caught out than a casual game?

That's why I reckon the "people would edit their rules!" argument doesn't stand up to logic, it'd be so easy to get caught and you'd be named and shamed out of competing again. You reckon people aren't just gonna notice if you start editing the rules for your army? I reckon it'd be way easier to hide dice cheating than rules editing, and in the end probably more effective.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/24 07:36:52


Post by: Slipspace


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
People cheat even in casual games. If anything I wonder if a tournament environment would discourage it because cheaters would know their opponents are going to be more attentive and there'll be more heat for getting caught out than a casual game?

That's why I reckon the "people would edit their rules!" argument doesn't stand up to logic, it'd be so easy to get caught and you'd be named and shamed out of competing again. You reckon people aren't just gonna notice if you start editing the rules for your army? I reckon it'd be way easier to hide dice cheating than rules editing, and in the end probably more effective.


We've literally just seen a player banned form the ITC for a year for some of the most obvious cheating you'll ever see and he was on stream at the time. I don't think you can say tournaments make people less likely to try this kind of thing. If anything they seem to bring out the worst in a certain type of person.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/24 09:43:45


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Slipspace wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
People cheat even in casual games. If anything I wonder if a tournament environment would discourage it because cheaters would know their opponents are going to be more attentive and there'll be more heat for getting caught out than a casual game?

That's why I reckon the "people would edit their rules!" argument doesn't stand up to logic, it'd be so easy to get caught and you'd be named and shamed out of competing again. You reckon people aren't just gonna notice if you start editing the rules for your army? I reckon it'd be way easier to hide dice cheating than rules editing, and in the end probably more effective.


We've literally just seen a player banned form the ITC for a year for some of the most obvious cheating you'll ever see and he was on stream at the time. I don't think you can say tournaments make people less likely to try this kind of thing. If anything they seem to bring out the worst in a certain type of person.


I never posited that it would completely stop cheating, so the fact we've seen a player banned recently hardly invalidates my argument, just that I think the idea that people are more likely to cheat if there's a tournament with prizes is a pretty baseless one.

Like speed cameras reduce (but don't eliminate) the number of people who speed in their cars, I reckon the tournament environment where you're playing against experience players who know the rules and will call you out and result in consequences is more likely to make people hesitant to cheat.

I've seen heaps of cheating in casual games in my gaming lifetime. People moving models too far, people "forgetting" rules, dice hijinks, exploiting ignorant players' lack of knowledge of the rules. Some people just like to win regardless of whether it's a tournament game or a casual game.

Obviously it's just a hunch, but I'd guess you'd find more cheating at your local games night than at a big tournament with prizes and cameras broadcasting it across the internet.




As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/24 17:51:34


Post by: yukishiro1


Has anyone ever actually heard of someone cheating by editing rules in a PDF? Given the massive amount of other types of cheating that does go on that everyone is aware of, one would think that if this was a thing, there'd be tons of examples of it.

I suspect there aren't because that it would (1) take a lot more effort than other ways to cheat, and (2) be way easier to catch, since you leave a paper trail of your own cheating for anyone to find, which is discoverable by anyone who actually knows what the rules are.





As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/24 21:39:03


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


That is why most people demand the physical book to verify. And why PDF's are not allowed at majors.

I have seen a lot of "cheating" with list building, because they didn't know how to read their codex, and no, the IG Sgt cannot be armed with a Plasma gun, or plasma pistol. They get confused on their unit load outs, or their points cost, "Why is your Knight only 210 points? No, you add the cost of the gun, not subtract" It's a fairly standard thing that doesn't rise to "Cheating" because it's impossible to prove malicious intent.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/25 04:09:12


Post by: MinMax


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
no, the IG Sgt cannot be armed with a Plasma gun, or plasma pistol.

They can actually be armed with a plasma pistol.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/25 11:08:25


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


yukishiro1 wrote:Has anyone ever actually heard of someone cheating by editing rules in a PDF? Given the massive amount of other types of cheating that does go on that everyone is aware of, one would think that if this was a thing, there'd be tons of examples of it.

I suspect there aren't because that it would (1) take a lot more effort than other ways to cheat, and (2) be way easier to catch, since you leave a paper trail of your own cheating for anyone to find, which is discoverable by anyone who actually knows what the rules are.



I've never seen it. The worst I've seen in a casual game is is someone "forgot" to bring their book but had "memorised" the rules, in reality was just making crap up and got called out on it because other people around did know the rules. He tried the "so I need 4's to hit and 4's to wound" and we were like, "err, no, sorry, you need 5's to hit", he argued that the unit had a higher Bs than they were supposed to be but didn't have his army book to demonstrate it. Eventually his opponent just called off the game because he kept making crap up.

But that's still a ways off actually editing rules.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:That is why most people demand the physical book to verify. And why PDF's are not allowed at majors.

I have seen a lot of "cheating" with list building, because they didn't know how to read their codex, and no, the IG Sgt cannot be armed with a Plasma gun, or plasma pistol. They get confused on their unit load outs, or their points cost, "Why is your Knight only 210 points? No, you add the cost of the gun, not subtract" It's a fairly standard thing that doesn't rise to "Cheating" because it's impossible to prove malicious intent.


List building "errors" are a lot different to editing documents that you've scanned. I've genuinely made errors in list building and I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt if they make mistakes also. That's a far cry from scanning a document, opening it in photoshop, editing values or text, then printing it off or bringing the edited PDF's to an event.

As yukishiro said, all you're doing is leaving a paper trail of your cheating by editing PDF's, too many people at an event are going to know the rules for your army by memory for you to pull that crap.

At least list building "errors" you can say "whoops, that was a mistake, my apologies, let me correct that", but editing an existing document? There's no way you can feign an accident or ignorance.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/25 14:24:21


Post by: PaddyMick


beast_gts wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)


Check the event pack or with the TO. For example, the London GT pack says you must bring "-Rules, including core rule book, codices, indices and any FAQs relevant to your army".


I just signed up to the Leicester GT, really looking forward to it, but I currently only own the core rules, and i've managed to write a list where i'll need the codex, plus two supplements, and you also have to bring the mission pack, so about £80 of books to play a £50 event, which will all be out of date when the new codex drop and tourney pack drop, which may be soon. I wouldn't mind but I won't get to play events frequently; this could be the only one where I use the books. Reckon i'm gonna try and borrow everything off someone if I can. Need to make some friends at the local club to get some practice games in anyway!


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/25 20:13:08


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


many local hobby stores will let you borrow or front you copies of books for tournament if you sponsor their store/gear/services. I know my FLGS will loan out carrying cases, travel boxes, and other merch just to have their name promoted. YMMV


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/26 05:46:05


Post by: PaddyMick


Cheers felix i'll look into that.

On the subject of cheating and prize money, I just heard on the Chapter Tactics podcast that if you cheat when there is prize money involved, it's an actual crime, a federal misdeamer or some such. How mental is that?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/26 07:42:22


Post by: Slipspace


 PaddyMick wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)


Check the event pack or with the TO. For example, the London GT pack says you must bring "-Rules, including core rule book, codices, indices and any FAQs relevant to your army".


I just signed up to the Leicester GT, really looking forward to it, but I currently only own the core rules, and i've managed to write a list where i'll need the codex, plus two supplements, and you also have to bring the mission pack, so about £80 of books to play a £50 event, which will all be out of date when the new codex drop and tourney pack drop, which may be soon. I wouldn't mind but I won't get to play events frequently; this could be the only one where I use the books. Reckon i'm gonna try and borrow everything off someone if I can. Need to make some friends at the local club to get some practice games in anyway!


Borrowing the books is a good solution, especially if you're not sure you're going to continue to use that army for the forseeable future. Can I ask how you created a list without the Codexes and supplements? If it was from books borrowed from friends maybe they'll let you borrow them for the tournament?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/26 08:24:02


Post by: beast_gts


 PaddyMick wrote:
On the subject of cheating and prize money, I just heard on the Chapter Tactics podcast that if you cheat when there is prize money involved, it's an actual crime, a federal misdeamer or some such. How mental is that?


Also depending on where you are the organisers might need a gambling or lottery licence to legally offer a cash prize.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/26 09:25:58


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 PaddyMick wrote:
Cheers felix i'll look into that.

On the subject of cheating and prize money, I just heard on the Chapter Tactics podcast that if you cheat when there is prize money involved, it's an actual crime, a federal misdeamer or some such. How mental is that?


Makes sense, morally I'd say it's not far off stealing if you're cheating to win a prize you wouldn't have otherwise won.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/26 11:57:53


Post by: Lord Kragan


The main take I got from this thread is that I should be thankful to be playing systems with 100% rules that are online, and thus avoid such conundrums.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/26 14:15:37


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Considering what people can get away with today, I'm not at all convinced stealing is even a crime anymore.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/26 15:21:58


Post by: PaddyMick


Slipspace wrote:
Can I ask how you created a list without the Codexes and supplements?


I went online to Wahapedia, which has all the rules and armies. It's a russian website of dubious legality. I've got nothing against putting my hand in my pocket for a codex and the core rules, but it does get a bit silly having to have 4 books... and then not knowing what you will be facing unless you buy the other codexes too. So for me I look at it like sampling the goods before making a purchase. I don't spend any more or less money with GW 'cos I'm using it, if that makes sense.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've thought a lot about whether it's right to use Wahepedia, and concluded that it's okay. I am however open to changing my mind.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 11:52:10


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 12:24:20


Post by: PaddyMick


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.


Yeah, like Battlescribe, it's providing something GW isn't: easily referencing the rules in one place (without actually reproducing any rules book pages). I find it more up to date and usable than Battlescribe. I mean I will buy the books, I love the books, I just wish that a) they produced paperback versions and b) it wasn't so reliant on timing, as it's easy to get stuck with out of date stuff.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 12:36:17


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


If you are intent on going through the back door, there are plenty of used codecies on ebay. People are constantly in and out of this hobby, or switching armies, and when they do the books hit the online shelves. Granted, it's about the same cost, but I have found a few 20$ book deals.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 12:56:04


Post by: Nurglitch


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.


It would be great to have an official 40k wiki with a micro-subscription.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:00:53


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.


I'm not a copyright lawyer, nor am I that familiar with the sources, but my understanding is Wahapedia is a word for word copy of the text including the fluff background for rules. That is a big no-no. whereas Battlescribe provides stats and summaries of rules, items which I don't believe are copyrightable.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:10:12


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


There is a rather fun copy right law that says you are allowed to 1-1 copy a of work of intellectual property, for the purpose of learning or educating. Wahapedia fully exploits that loophole.

It's why Paul Daniels makes a ton off selling computer board schematics on Apply devices to 3rd party repair people. They pay him for the right to learn how the boards are put together. It's all off "education".


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:27:22


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is a rather fun copy right law that says you are allowed to 1-1 copy a of work of intellectual property, for the purpose of learning or educating. Wahapedia fully exploits that loophole.


I've never heard of such a law. There are certain exemptions for education purposes, but it's not a blanket "you're allowed to copy if it's for education!". There's rules around being able to copy portions (not entire works) for education purposes, review, news or satire. Often there are payments made to the rights holders to allow specific education institutes (i.e. not just anyone claiming to be an educator) to copy works in ways that would normally require permission.

At my University they're clear that Educational copyright licence is not a blanket allowance to copy, it is only limited amounts of a text, has to be done by University staff, strictly for educational purposes within the University (can't just upload it to a public server, but it can be uploaded to a unit's webpage accessible to students enrolled in that unit).

It's why Paul Daniels makes a ton off selling computer board schematics on Apply devices to 3rd party repair people. They pay him for the right to learn how the boards are put together. It's all off "education".


That's not at all the same. Paul Daniels doesn't make 1:1 copies and then on sell them as education, he writes his own software that can take board views and schematics. He even says on his website: "Note: Boardviews and schematics are intellectual property owned by the respective parties, as such it is not legal to distribute them with FlexBV any more than it would be to distribute SpaceX raptor engine plans with AutoCAD (no matter how impressive that would be)."


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:28:37


Post by: PaddyMick


Nurglitch wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.


It would be great to have an official 40k wiki with a micro-subscription.


Yes! I would pay for that. They should employ the guys who do wahapedia and battlescribe.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:34:28


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is a rather fun copy right law that says you are allowed to 1-1 copy a of work of intellectual property, for the purpose of learning or educating. Wahapedia fully exploits that loophole.


I've never heard of such a law. There are certain exemptions for education purposes, but it's not a blanket "you're allowed to copy if it's for education!". There's rules around being able to copy portions (not entire works) for education purposes, review, news or satire. Often there are payments made to the rights holders to allow specific education institutes (i.e. not just anyone claiming to be an educator) to copy works in ways that would normally require permission.

It's why Paul Daniels makes a ton off selling computer board schematics on Apply devices to 3rd party repair people. They pay him for the right to learn how the boards are put together. It's all off "education".


That's not at all the same. Paul Daniels doesn't make 1:1 copies and then on sell them as education, he writes his own software that can take board views and schematics. He even says on his website: "Note: Boardviews and schematics are intellectual property owned by the respective parties, as such it is not legal to distribute them with FlexBV any more than it would be to distribute SpaceX raptor engine plans with AutoCAD (no matter how impressive that would be)."


Teachers copy and make copies of educational texts on a daily basis. They also make copies of not just text books, but regular books, seminars, web training slides, and music. All without copyright violation lawsuits or fees. My wife copies whole chapters of books for reading assignments every day. Colleges are the only ones who get nailed for this, and that is because they are "For Profit" eduation, where most public schools aren't.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:36:46


Post by: Cybtroll


Copyright in itself is a stopgap measure that can't be really applied to anything that's important (science, art, education, comedy, literature... Ideas themselves).
That alone is an indicator of how the relevant laws are more on defense of power relationship, rather than progress.

To add a point to our discussion: our group effectively pool resources together. We have a group rulebook, all codexes, supplement and such... Everyone purchase what they want/need and share it with the other.
It's not pirating, but probably we would (personally) purchase less thing (book) each than what we would do if we hadn't a group.

I honestly don't know if it's illegal, since I have all the book related to my miniature, but I can browse also other codexes to have a preview of what to expect if I have a game.
For example, I buy a lot more miniature since I have some friend to share my hobby with.

Personally, if a tournament want to force me bring physical copies, it's not something I'm interested to participate or endorse.

Exactly like official GW tournament. I don't expect them to allows third party armies, but if I cannot bring a single model that I converted kitbashing... I'm not interested to be there )to me participate in a tournament is ALSO an occasion to see cool model and cool conversions).


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:38:06


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I think the worst that could come from that sort of behavior is a SLAPP lawsuit, and even those cost the company more than they are worth most of the time.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 13:44:55


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Teachers copy and make copies of educational texts on a daily basis. They also make copies of not just text books, but regular books, seminars, web training slides, and music. All without copyright violation lawsuits or fees. My wife copies whole chapters of books for reading assignments every day. Colleges are the only ones who get nailed for this, and that is because they are "For Profit" eduation, where most public schools aren't.


I'm sure a lot of teachers do things that are illegal without (or possibly with) knowing also.

I thought maybe the US is different, but Googling around it seems to be quite similar to Australia in that no, you aren't allowed to just copy slabs of copyrighted material and say "it's for education!". There's more freedom than if you were copying something to distribute generally, but there's still limitations. I don't think you'd have a leg to stand on if you copied chapters of books to hand out for "education purposes" and weren't actually employed as a teacher / lecturer and the people you were handing it out to weren't students in your institution.







As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 14:02:10


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Right, Wahapedia has existed from several editions of 40k. Which is more valid proof that it's not illegal, Wahapedia existing, or your cursory glance at google results for the legality of the single most convoluted and complex mire of US legal BS in existence?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 14:06:55


Post by: PaddyMick


I think the guy at Wahapedia is relying on being in Russia to cover him from any copyright complications.

Incidentally, I just spent over a hundred quid on models with GW that I wouldn't have done if I couldn't go on Wahapedia and build a list (since you ask it's Blood Axes with GSC Vehicles, gonna be super cool).


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 14:12:01


Post by: Slipspace


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, Wahapedia has existed from several editions of 40k. Which is more valid proof that it's not illegal, Wahapedia existing, or your cursory glance at google results for the legality of the single most convoluted and complex mire of US legal BS in existence?


Wahapedia is a Russian website. In order for GW to have it taken down it would have to be violating Russian copyright law and the Russian regulators would have to care.

As far as educational use goes, the US and UK have almost identical laws and copying an entire chapter of a book for educational purposes is usually OK, providing the entire contents can reasonably be said to be of educational value. However, copying multiple chapters is almost certainly going to be against the law, and there is absolutely no carte blanche to make 1-1 copies of entire works for educational purposes. If the entire work is something like a short story or poem that's likely fine, but entire books or textbooks is not.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 14:26:45


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right, Wahapedia has existed from several editions of 40k. Which is more valid proof that it's not illegal, Wahapedia existing, or your cursory glance at google results for the legality of the single most convoluted and complex mire of US legal BS in existence?


Err, yeah, I'm pretty sure Wahapedia wouldn't exist if it was based in the US or UK. Like a lot of dodgy copyright stuff, the sites that haven't been taken down are often based in Russia.

The fact you can go to China and buy a giant stack of knock offs doesn't make that legal either.

My cursory glance of google was just to confirm that the US seems to be the same as Australia in the sense that, yes, it's complex, but NO, there is no education allowance that just lets any old person copy a work 1:1 and claim "Muh Edookayshun!".


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 17:05:43


Post by: ryzouken


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The fact you can go to China and buy a giant stack of knock offs doesn't make that legal either.

That's the thing, right? Our laws are dependent on which set of geopolitical lines we are occupying. What's legal and what isn't differs depending on what piece of dirt you're standing on. You can buy something in a country, visit your local embassy, and be breaking the law by possessing it (in theory, I'm not about to sit down and do the legal research to prove this beyond its face.) To say something isn't legal when all evidence points to the contrary in that legal zone doesn't seem to follow.

It's like saying (at the risk of opening a different can of worms) that firearm magazines of greater than 10 round capacity aren't legal to buy. If you're in California, that's entirely true, but if you travel 200 miles eastward, it's probably false (if you have a government issued ID from not California.)

tl;dr: The legality of something is dependent on whose laws you're following.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/27 18:31:13


Post by: yukishiro1


GW doesn't do anything about wahapedia / battlescribe etc because GW knows it makes GW more money to have people be able to look up unit stats for free than it would to gate them behind $50 codexes. They probably couldn't do anything anyway, but that hasn't stopped them from trying in the past. If you look at GW's actions re: IP, you'll note that what GW cares about is its plastic business (and to a lesser extent its IP) being infringed; infringement of their rules has never been a high priority for them.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/28 01:17:26


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


ryzouken wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The fact you can go to China and buy a giant stack of knock offs doesn't make that legal either.

That's the thing, right? Our laws are dependent on which set of geopolitical lines we are occupying. What's legal and what isn't differs depending on what piece of dirt you're standing on. You can buy something in a country, visit your local embassy, and be breaking the law by possessing it (in theory, I'm not about to sit down and do the legal research to prove this beyond its face.) To say something isn't legal when all evidence points to the contrary in that legal zone doesn't seem to follow.

It's like saying (at the risk of opening a different can of worms) that firearm magazines of greater than 10 round capacity aren't legal to buy. If you're in California, that's entirely true, but if you travel 200 miles eastward, it's probably false (if you have a government issued ID from not California.)

tl;dr: The legality of something is dependent on whose laws you're following.


There's also enforcement of laws. Most places have some things that are illegal but not enforced, but in some places it's more extreme. Russia and China definitely have copyright laws, my understanding is they're far less likely to be enforced. Or places like India where bribing law enforcement is common practice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
GW doesn't do anything about wahapedia / battlescribe etc because GW knows it makes GW more money to have people be able to look up unit stats for free than it would to gate them behind $50 codexes. They probably couldn't do anything anyway, but that hasn't stopped them from trying in the past. If you look at GW's actions re: IP, you'll note that what GW cares about is its plastic business (and to a lesser extent its IP) being infringed; infringement of their rules has never been a high priority for them.


I'm pretty sure that GW's lawyers have issued take down notices for sites that share scans of books in the past (though I have noticed some OOP books have been easier to find online these days).

But sharing rules is different to sharing a word for word copy of the text (like wahapedia does). The rules structure of a game, the game mechanics, are not subject to copyright, but the actual text that makes up the rules is. I think it gets more vague when we start talking about stat lines and things though, but it's much murkier than what Wahapedia is doing where they are just copying sections of text and not just paraphrasing the effects of the rule.

But being in Russia makes it that much harder than if it were based in the west, where the website's host is far more likely to side with the claimed copyright holder and just take down the content.




As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/28 14:34:27


Post by: Pacific


From my experience I think you'd need to be pretty unlucky for a TO to a) notice that you're using a scanned/printed copy or b) actually even care, unless you went out of your way to shout out about it.

Think it's possibly even less of an issue than the 'no non-GW parts or conversions' thing that comes up all the time. In practice, you might be very unlucky and bump into a jobsworth that is having a bad day. In most cases I don't think people care. I've used completely non-GW minis in Warhammer world before on their tables, and a chap I know had his army (which was substantially non-GW bits and self sculpted) actually put on display there after some of the guys working there liked the look of it. Again, I don't think it's an issue, unless you try make it one.

If it's something that you're really worried about, why not scan/print out individual unit profiles into a word document - that way it would look less like it has been lifted from an illegal (or otherwise) copy, and more that you don't want to take your expensive books to a tournament and have them damaged or nicked..



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/28 15:37:31


Post by: catbarf


Fezzik, if copyright law granted blanket exception to wholesale duplication of a work as long as it's distributed nominally for educational purposes, copyright would be functionally nonexistent. Try hosting a music-sharing site, or scanning and uploading popular novels, or rips of the latest Hollywood blockbuster, and see how far pinky-swearing that it's for education gets you.

Strictly speaking, what your wife is doing is probably a copyright violation. Fair use does provide education as a justification, but that's only one of the tests- the amount of material duplicated is also significant. Copying a few sentences or paragraphs is usually fine, duplicating an entire chapter of a printed work might not be.

In practice, as long as you're not trying to make money off of it or undermining the copyright holder's ability to make money, nobody cares. That's how civil suits work; you're not going to get arrested for committing copyright infringement, you'll get sued if you're causing trouble for the copyright holder. If your wife were duplicating a book wholesale and providing it to students, that could absolutely bring the wrath of the publishing house down on her. 'It's for education' isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Wahapedia only survives because Russia is notoriously lax about enforcing Western intellectual property.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/28 20:42:39


Post by: skchsan


 catbarf wrote:
Fezzik, if copyright law granted blanket exception to wholesale duplication of a work as long as it's distributed nominally for educational purposes, copyright would be functionally nonexistent. Try hosting a music-sharing site, or scanning and uploading popular novels, or rips of the latest Hollywood blockbuster, and see how far pinky-swearing that it's for education gets you.

Strictly speaking, what your wife is doing is probably a copyright violation. Fair use does provide education as a justification, but that's only one of the tests- the amount of material duplicated is also significant. Copying a few sentences or paragraphs is usually fine, duplicating an entire chapter of a printed work might not be.

In practice, as long as you're not trying to make money off of it or undermining the copyright holder's ability to make money, nobody cares. That's how civil suits work; you're not going to get arrested for committing copyright infringement, you'll get sued if you're causing trouble for the copyright holder. If your wife were duplicating a book wholesale and providing it to students, that could absolutely bring the wrath of the publishing house down on her. 'It's for education' isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Wahapedia only survives because Russia is notoriously lax about enforcing Western intellectual property.
Well, FWIW, where it is more prone to scrutiny (i.e. college level), it's required that you properly cite the original source when you're providing your students with excerpts from copyrighted sources.

As long as the original work is properly cited and the use follows the guidelines of fair use, it's generally non-issue.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/28 21:27:42


Post by: PaddyMick


@pacific

Cheers, as someone new to the current climate, and unsure of the etiquette and expectation, that's very reassuring.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 00:48:01


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


All I want to point out is that it's not the massive "Nazis eating babies" moment that everyone thinks it is, to copy and use copies of books at tournaments. It's not like Hawkeye and the CIA are going to kick down the event doors, and begin Pile-driving people for not having "sanctioned" rules, in the proper format. If you saw someone using rules you knew for a fact they did not own, and had copied, would you tell the police on them?

Honestly asking here. Because that says alot about where we are as a society.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 04:19:06


Post by: insaniak


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Teachers copy and make copies of educational texts on a daily basis. They also make copies of not just text books, but regular books, seminars, web training slides, and music. All without copyright violation lawsuits or fees. My wife copies whole chapters of books for reading assignments every day. Colleges are the only ones who get nailed for this, and that is because they are "For Profit" eduation, where most public schools aren't.

The 'teachers do it doesn't mean it's legal' bit has already been covered, but it seemed relevant to mention that my daughter's school principal caused a mass panic on April Fool's day a couple of years back when he sent an email around to the teachers informing them that inspectors from the 'Copyright Enforcement Office' were visiting the school that morning and so they should make sure that their classrooms were all squared away...



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 09:42:38


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 skchsan wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Fezzik, if copyright law granted blanket exception to wholesale duplication of a work as long as it's distributed nominally for educational purposes, copyright would be functionally nonexistent. Try hosting a music-sharing site, or scanning and uploading popular novels, or rips of the latest Hollywood blockbuster, and see how far pinky-swearing that it's for education gets you.

Strictly speaking, what your wife is doing is probably a copyright violation. Fair use does provide education as a justification, but that's only one of the tests- the amount of material duplicated is also significant. Copying a few sentences or paragraphs is usually fine, duplicating an entire chapter of a printed work might not be.

In practice, as long as you're not trying to make money off of it or undermining the copyright holder's ability to make money, nobody cares. That's how civil suits work; you're not going to get arrested for committing copyright infringement, you'll get sued if you're causing trouble for the copyright holder. If your wife were duplicating a book wholesale and providing it to students, that could absolutely bring the wrath of the publishing house down on her. 'It's for education' isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Wahapedia only survives because Russia is notoriously lax about enforcing Western intellectual property.
Well, FWIW, where it is more prone to scrutiny (i.e. college level), it's required that you properly cite the original source when you're providing your students with excerpts from copyrighted sources.

As long as the original work is properly cited and the use follows the guidelines of fair use, it's generally non-issue.


Citing is more about plagiarism, copyright is about making money. My University lays out pretty clear guidelines in that "educational purposes" means that it has to be staff doing the copying, it has to be less than a certain amount of the original work, it can't be public (e.g. can't post it on a website that can be accessed by people outside of students enrolled in that course or leave copies floating around a classroom). Other Universities have guidelines that are more vague but they generally tend to be along similar lines.

I guess larger universities like mine are more concerned because if a copyright holder can make a claim that 400 students didn't buy a book because the professor copied too much of it and therefore that constitutes damages, that might be a legitimate claim. Whereas a teacher of a high school class with fewer students that are younger, a similar claim isn't going to hold as much weight. Doesn't make it more or less legal, just more or less enforceable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
All I want to point out is that it's not the massive "Nazis eating babies" moment that everyone thinks it is, to copy and use copies of books at tournaments. It's not like Hawkeye and the CIA are going to kick down the event doors, and begin Pile-driving people for not having "sanctioned" rules, in the proper format. If you saw someone using rules you knew for a fact they did not own, and had copied, would you tell the police on them?

Honestly asking here. Because that says alot about where we are as a society.


Fair enough, I agree some folk probably take it too much to the extreme, and it is a murky topic, but from what I've read on Wahapedia I don't think it'd remain online if it was on a host located anywhere that wasn't Russia, lol.

You mentioned Paul Daniels earlier, I assume you watch Louis Rossmann? Apple tried to get him to take down a video because it showed the location of a component on a board that would let people fix it. That's probably the closest you get to "Education" outside of an actual educational institute like a university or school. Luckily he stood up to them and said he'd only take it down if they filed a public claim so he could then use the claim to demonstrate how dodgy they are and they backed off, but it shows how companies are willing to bully people with copyright.

If you saw someone using rules you knew for a fact they did not own, and had copied, would you tell the police on them?

Honestly asking here. Because that says alot about where we are as a society.
Well it'd more be whether you'd call the copyright holder, since the police aren't going to do much, but from what I've read in this thread I think some folks probably would try to dob people in for it, lol.




As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 11:21:02


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I don't doubt there are a few people who would AllseeingSkink, nor do I doubt there are a few people here who ran to the principal in their early school days if they saw kids fencing with sticks, or looking at another persons homework.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 12:06:19


Post by: Ketara


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
TThere is a rather fun copy right law that says you are allowed to 1-1 copy a of work of intellectual property, for the purpose of learning or educating. Wahapedia fully exploits that loophole.


I've never heard of such a law. There are certain exemptions for education purposes, but it's not a blanket "you're allowed to copy if it's for education!". There's rules around being able to copy portions (not entire works) for education purposes, review, news or satire. Often there are payments made to the rights holders to allow specific education institutes (i.e. not just anyone claiming to be an educator) to copy works in ways that would normally require permission.

At my University they're clear that Educational copyright licence is not a blanket allowance to copy, it is only limited amounts of a text, has to be done by University staff, strictly for educational purposes within the University (can't just upload it to a public server, but it can be uploaded to a unit's webpage accessible to students enrolled in that unit).


Speaking as someone who worked before doing scans in an academic library for courses, you're both kind of right (although Skink moreso). The rule of thumb as codified by UK Copyright Law right now is 10% of the book or 1 chapter may be copied for educational purposes. There are two variants of this, which I'll summarise.

-The first is for private use and may be done with no further contact with the copyright holder. No more than 1 copy may be made in such a way, and it has to be for personal use.
-The second is for general educational use and requires that you be the holder of the appropriate educational license (in the UK University sector, that would be a HE license for example). Essentially you pay a blanket fixed annual fee to the CLA (it's not a huge sum). Then when you want to make a copy for teaching using the 10%/1 chapter rule, you go to the CLA portal. Using the ISBN or whatever metadata you have, you find the entry for the work you want to make copies of, and file the paperwork to say that you're making X number of copies for X course. This licenses you to use that many copies for that purpose. Note that 'make a copy' does not equate to 'permission to republish', so these copies are usually hosted internally or handed out in paper format. There is usually a purchase option for an additional 10% or chapter if required through the CLA.

So if I were to run a university course for 'Playing Warhammer' and held the appropriate license, I could, in theory, rip just the Chapter in a GW rulebook that had all the stats and rules in it. And then upload it to a private server for all the people who were registered as my 'students'. That would be completely legal. I could even charge for the course. The trick is getting the appropriate educational licenses set up, once you've got that, everything else is gravy.

Note:- The above is working on the basis that GW books are licensable through CLA. If they're not, it might still be possible, but it complicates things beyond the point where I'd lay out a step by step process for it.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 13:05:35


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


This actually makes me wonder, there is a "Gaming club" at my wife's school, mostly chess, or some online stuff like Rocket League, but if they did 40k, and the teacher got the Educational exemption, who would honestly make a stink about a teacher making copies of the BRB for all the students, and then telling them to buy the Codexes?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 14:47:18


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Ketara wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
TThere is a rather fun copy right law that says you are allowed to 1-1 copy a of work of intellectual property, for the purpose of learning or educating. Wahapedia fully exploits that loophole.


I've never heard of such a law. There are certain exemptions for education purposes, but it's not a blanket "you're allowed to copy if it's for education!". There's rules around being able to copy portions (not entire works) for education purposes, review, news or satire. Often there are payments made to the rights holders to allow specific education institutes (i.e. not just anyone claiming to be an educator) to copy works in ways that would normally require permission.

At my University they're clear that Educational copyright licence is not a blanket allowance to copy, it is only limited amounts of a text, has to be done by University staff, strictly for educational purposes within the University (can't just upload it to a public server, but it can be uploaded to a unit's webpage accessible to students enrolled in that unit).


Speaking as someone who worked before doing scans in an academic library for courses, you're both kind of right (although Skink moreso). The rule of thumb as codified by UK Copyright Law right now is 10% of the book or 1 chapter may be copied for educational purposes. There are two variants of this, which I'll summarise.

-The first is for private use and may be done with no further contact with the copyright holder. No more than 1 copy may be made in such a way, and it has to be for personal use.
-The second is for general educational use and requires that you be the holder of the appropriate educational license (in the UK University sector, that would be a HE license for example). Essentially you pay a blanket fixed annual fee to the CLA (it's not a huge sum). Then when you want to make a copy for teaching using the 10%/1 chapter rule, you go to the CLA portal. Using the ISBN or whatever metadata you have, you find the entry for the work you want to make copies of, and file the paperwork to say that you're making X number of copies for X course. This licenses you to use that many copies for that purpose. Note that 'make a copy' does not equate to 'permission to republish', so these copies are usually hosted internally or handed out in paper format. There is usually a purchase option for an additional 10% or chapter if required through the CLA.

So if I were to run a university course for 'Playing Warhammer' and held the appropriate license, I could, in theory, rip just the Chapter in a GW rulebook that had all the stats and rules in it. And then upload it to a private server for all the people who were registered as my 'students'. That would be completely legal. I could even charge for the course. The trick is getting the appropriate educational licenses set up, once you've got that, everything else is gravy.

Note:- The above is working on the basis that GW books are licensable through CLA. If they're not, it might still be possible, but it complicates things beyond the point where I'd lay out a step by step process for it.


From what you said, it sounds like the UK has a similar setup to Australia. However, from my Googling, it seemed the US system was a bit more vague. Where Australian universities (or even schools and whatnot) talk about "education license" which has rules laid out and that is paid for either by the University or an overarching government body in the case of schools, the US seems to have more vague references to Fair Use, and guidelines varied from institution to institution and some places highlighted that the guidelines weren't law and agreements haven't been reached for universal guidelines. One US university even went to the extreme of saying avoid copying poems for students because you end up having to copy the whole poem rather than just bits of it. However, the guidelines for US educators still seemed roughly in line with Australian ones.

So it seems to me that *maybe* the UK and Australia have more clearly laid out rules for educational use where the US maybe has more broad guidelines and vague rules? Dunno, not a copyright lawyer


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 14:59:07


Post by: beast_gts


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This actually makes me wonder, there is a "Gaming club" at my wife's school, mostly chess, or some online stuff like Rocket League, but if they did 40k, and the teacher got the Educational exemption, who would honestly make a stink about a teacher making copies of the BRB for all the students, and then telling them to buy the Codexes?


GW have an official Warhammer School Clubs program, which gives schools free stuff anyway.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/04/29 16:06:18


Post by: Ketara


AllSeeingSkink wrote:


From what you said, it sounds like the UK has a similar setup to Australia. However, from my Googling, it seemed the US system was a bit more vague. Where Australian universities (or even schools and whatnot) talk about "education license" which has rules laid out and that is paid for either by the University or an overarching government body in the case of schools, the US seems to have more vague references to Fair Use, and guidelines varied from institution to institution and some places highlighted that the guidelines weren't law and agreements haven't been reached for universal guidelines. One US university even went to the extreme of saying avoid copying poems for students because you end up having to copy the whole poem rather than just bits of it. However, the guidelines for US educators still seemed roughly in line with Australian ones.

So it seems to me that *maybe* the UK and Australia have more clearly laid out rules for educational use where the US maybe has more broad guidelines and vague rules?


It wouldn't surprise me if there was a rough equivalent abroad, most IP law is pretty international. The wording might differ, but I'd be surprised if the substance did.

Dunno, not a copyright lawyer


I never really set out to be one either, but I've ended up weirdly knowledgeable about specific areas of IP law. First I took an interest in the Chapterhouse case back in the day. Then I worked in an academic library and had some stuff to do with it. Then historical parts of it became relevant due to my own academic research (patent law, etc) - to the point where I was actually digging around in IP law company basements for material! Then I looked at putting some business proposals together where IP was relevant and consulted a couple of lawyers about the intricacies. And so on.

Frankly, if I was looking for an alternative career at this point, I'd probably consider getting into it.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/08 10:02:04


Post by: stratigo


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.


eeeeeh. Maybe?

Wahapedia is hosted in Russia though, and Russia's stance on IP laws is "lul, get fethed". So the actual legality of wahapedia in, say, the US or UK, is virtually untestable.

That's what a lot of people aren't understanding is that what is and is not legal isn't completely settled law yet. It is a murky grey nexus of out of touch legislation crafted decades ago (or for issues decades old) applied by what is usually a geriatric judiciary trying to hammer cases into laws that didn't consider things like crowd sourcing.

It's a mess.

 PaddyMick wrote:
I think the guy at Wahapedia is relying on being in Russia to cover him from any copyright complications.

Incidentally, I just spent over a hundred quid on models with GW that I wouldn't have done if I couldn't go on Wahapedia and build a list (since you ask it's Blood Axes with GSC Vehicles, gonna be super cool).


It is entirely possible that what he is doing ISN'T illegal in russia even if it might be (and, again, unless the dude shows up in a UK or US court, this isn't a hard yes) somewhere else.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ketara wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:


From what you said, it sounds like the UK has a similar setup to Australia. However, from my Googling, it seemed the US system was a bit more vague. Where Australian universities (or even schools and whatnot) talk about "education license" which has rules laid out and that is paid for either by the University or an overarching government body in the case of schools, the US seems to have more vague references to Fair Use, and guidelines varied from institution to institution and some places highlighted that the guidelines weren't law and agreements haven't been reached for universal guidelines. One US university even went to the extreme of saying avoid copying poems for students because you end up having to copy the whole poem rather than just bits of it. However, the guidelines for US educators still seemed roughly in line with Australian ones.

So it seems to me that *maybe* the UK and Australia have more clearly laid out rules for educational use where the US maybe has more broad guidelines and vague rules?


It wouldn't surprise me if there was a rough equivalent abroad, most IP law is pretty international. The wording might differ, but I'd be surprised if the substance did.

Dunno, not a copyright lawyer


I never really set out to be one either, but I've ended up weirdly knowledgeable about specific areas of IP law. First I took an interest in the Chapterhouse case back in the day. Then I worked in an academic library and had some stuff to do with it. Then historical parts of it became relevant due to my own academic research (patent law, etc) - to the point where I was actually digging around in IP law company basements for material! Then I looked at putting some business proposals together where IP was relevant and consulted a couple of lawyers about the intricacies. And so on.

Frankly, if I was looking for an alternative career at this point, I'd probably consider getting into it.


For example on how complicated this gak is, chapterhouse was dinged for trademark violations. Not copyright.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/10 17:13:41


Post by: yukishiro1


To try to wrestle the discussion back to the original topic a litttle bit:

GW is repeating the fiasco with the SoB Codex, where the only way to get the new Ork Codex is going to be in the boxed set "for a short period of time," which in the case of SoB was three months. If you have a rule that people need to bring hardcopy rules, you're essentially telling Ork players they aren't allowed to play their army for an undefined period of time, unless they shell out the $200 or whatever it is for a box they may or may not want, and may or may not be able to afford.

Does this perhaps move the needle a bit for some people re: whether it's reasonable to demand everyone have a hard copy of their rules? Or should the Ork players just suck it up and either pay the $200 (if they can get a box at all, which, based on past precedent, may mean camping out on the website and ordering within 3 minutes of it becoming available) or not be able to play their armies competitively for however long GW in their wisdom deems it appropriate to lock the Ork codex behind the box?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/10 17:58:17


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


There really needs to be a simpler way for GW to gouge the weak and poor hobbyists, and for us to get legal rule books digitally.

I mean, I know that we are currently in the 20s, what with rampant disease, alcoholism, market depression, and somehow in contrast to all things holy, swing music is popular again, but common. Give us digidexes! I'd much rather buy one of those than run the disease gamut of the interwebs looking for a russian copy.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/10 18:08:44


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There really needs to be a simpler way for GW to gouge the weak and poor hobbyists, and for us to get legal rule books digitally.

I mean, I know that we are currently in the 20s, what with rampant disease, alcoholism, market depression, and somehow in contrast to all things holy, swing music is popular again, but common. Give us digidexes! I'd much rather buy one of those than run the disease gamut of the interwebs looking for a russian copy.


Hahaha, nice.

But yeah, GW does give you the option to buy a digital copy in most cases, but GW's incarnation of digital books is awful. I bought a GW epub once and never again. The formatting is horrible and it's truly painful trying to find the rule you're looking for or just reading it for that matter.

There's been times I've downloaded a pirated digital copy of a book I own simply because the official digital copy is absolute garbage.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/10 18:14:15


Post by: beast_gts


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But yeah, GW does give you the option to buy a digital copy in most cases
GW have not released any of the 9th 40k books as ePub (or PDF) - the only digital versions of them are the (limited) ones in their App.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/10 18:22:21


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


beast_gts wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But yeah, GW does give you the option to buy a digital copy in most cases
GW have not released any of the 9th 40k books as ePub (or PDF) - the only digital versions of them are the (limited) ones in their App.
Huh, guess I didn't notice they'd stopped releasing them. I guess the ones I were looking at must have been 8th edition codices.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/10 19:28:39


Post by: TheWaspinator


Yeah, it's kind of a goofy step backwards. Just let me pay you $20 for an overpriced ebook, GW! It's not hard! This stuff winds up being pirated anyways, so you might as well make the official option easy.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/10 19:51:14


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Seriously that is why Itunes succeeded, it made it easier to pay for it legally than to pirate it. GW is like no, we make it harder to buy legally and punish you for not paying!


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/11 17:54:24


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


But did you ever buy any of GW's digital editions? They really were terrible. The one I bought I ended up converting to a Word file and spending a couple of hours reformatting it because it was so utterly terrible that it'd slow games down in the form they provided.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/11 18:14:13


Post by: beast_gts


 TheWaspinator wrote:
Just let me pay you $20 for an overpriced ebook, GW! It's not hard! This stuff winds up being pirated anyways, so you might as well make the official option easy.

Well, either they're being pirated that much it's not worth it for GW to release them anymore, or they're doubling down on their app...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But did you ever buy any of GW's digital editions?

Yes and I've never had any issues with them. Were you using one of their recommended readers?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/12 06:07:27


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


beast_gts wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But did you ever buy any of GW's digital editions?

Yes and I've never had any issues with them. Were you using one of their recommended readers?
Yeah, also tried several other readers, they all had pros and cons.

The main problem was how GW setup the pages, it would be perfectly fine for a novel but for a book of rules it was annoying. Where in the physical book a particular set of rules (for a unit for example) would be contained on one page, in the digital version it'd be broken up across multiple pages meaning you couldn't just see all the rules for a unit at a glance. You might have had a single unit's rules across 2 or 3 pages, meaning a whole heap of flicking back and forth, was worse than the physical book equivalent. There were links but they didn't help much with the annoyance of it all.

It's like they formatted it for a tiny mini reader or maybe even a large phone and it didn't work well on a regular sized tablet.

Maybe GW improved them, the codex I got was a few years ago now. It was slightly cheaper than a physical book but a massive downgrade.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/12 10:51:51


Post by: Blndmage


On topic, about the app:
Since getting the 9th Ed Codexes on there requires a code found only in the printed books, and it's the official digital version of those rules, would the app count as a valid rule source?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/12 12:58:38


Post by: beast_gts


 Blndmage wrote:
On topic, about the app:
Since getting the 9th Ed Codexes on there requires a code found only in the printed books, and it's the official digital version of those rules, would the app count as a valid rule source?

Check with the TO - it's an official source, but it's not a full codex or the easiest thing to navigate...


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/12 15:44:55


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/12 15:51:41


Post by: Kanluwen


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.

The same can be said for literally any digital mechanism, what's your point?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/13 13:41:16


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


 Kanluwen wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.

The same can be said for literally any digital mechanism, what's your point?


I can't tell if you are serious or not. The entire thread is about the reasons why or why not people should be allowed to take paper copies of rules to events/tournaments, because it erodes trust in the legitimacy of the rules. If you are having a match where you are on a clock system, and you have an extremely limited window to make your turn, I will call you on every rule you play if you are using the APP, because I know that it will take you entire minutes to bring up the rule as proof on the app. Whereas if you have a book, or even a digital codex, you can flip right to the appropriate page. The App is notoriously bad at quick rule skimming. This has happened in several events, and it's cost people games, because rule disputes are handled in the moment, unless you can get a TO to come and micro manage your table, you are stuck trying to show proof of the rule on your time. The app is crash happy, it's hard to navigate, and it doesn't have a search function. Try right now to time yourself: it would be faster to find the shooting distance of my Telemon's guns on google, than by searching the app.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/13 13:42:53


Post by: Kanluwen


Whatever. It's quite obvious you'd be a real treat to ignore playing.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/13 13:47:12


Post by: beast_gts


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This has happened in several events, and it's cost people games
Have you got a source / link for this?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
you are stuck trying to show proof of the rule on your time.
If your opponent wants to check something surly either give them your tablet or pause the clock?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The app is crash happy, it's hard to navigate, and it doesn't have a search function.
It does have a search function - what it doesn't have is a good way to browse a codex.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/13 14:20:42


Post by: Pacific


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good luck getting the app to work when your opponent demands to see the rule you are citing and you're on the clock.

The same can be said for literally any digital mechanism, what's your point?


I can't tell if you are serious or not. The entire thread is about the reasons why or why not people should be allowed to take paper copies of rules to events/tournaments, because it erodes trust in the legitimacy of the rules. If you are having a match where you are on a clock system, and you have an extremely limited window to make your turn, I will call you on every rule you play if you are using the APP, because I know that it will take you entire minutes to bring up the rule as proof on the app. Whereas if you have a book, or even a digital codex, you can flip right to the appropriate page. The App is notoriously bad at quick rule skimming. This has happened in several events, and it's cost people games, because rule disputes are handled in the moment, unless you can get a TO to come and micro manage your table, you are stuck trying to show proof of the rule on your time. The app is crash happy, it's hard to navigate, and it doesn't have a search function. Try right now to time yourself: it would be faster to find the shooting distance of my Telemon's guns on google, than by searching the app.


I take it you don't play in events with sportsmanship/opponent scores.. Jesus wept


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/05/13 16:05:27


Post by: ryzouken


 Pacific wrote:
I take it you don't play in events with sportsmanship/opponent scores.. Jesus wept

I'd be inclined to issue the match loss regardless if I saw a player blatantly attempting to run the opponent's clock out like that, and would be a hair's breadth from escalating that to a dismissal. The clock exists to protect you from slow play. It does not exist to be weaponized through rule questions made in bad faith. Just play the bloody game.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/05 12:28:17


Post by: sharmasatbir069


I've had hundreds of dollars of rulebooks and codexes lifted off of me at events. I'd rather carry a cheap tablet that is portable enough to throw in a side sack than spend all that money again.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/05 16:58:07


Post by: Gregor Samsa


man official GW warhammer tournaments really seem terrible.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/14 10:22:22


Post by: tneva82


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
, and it doesn't have a search function.


Actually it does have search function. I just used one to get straight to telemon datasheet.

Though overall point still fair.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/16 14:30:01


Post by: Kirasu


As a TO it's not my job to push GW corporate messaging and more to have players enjoy their games. I've always allowed any printed materials players have long as its the correct rules. The chance of someone creating fake rules is so laughably small.

The whole idea that a TO has to worry about copyright issues is absurd, come on lets not be GW's unpaid employees and encourage playing of the game.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/16 18:27:12


Post by: macluvin


There are tons of legal precedent in IP law that allow for copying of such material as software, music CD’s, and other media for personal use, provided that you purchased the thing you are copying, as fair use. Especially if the purpose is to protect the original. Copying your friend’s codex is a blatant violation of this. Now games workshop can sanction tournament organizations should they not agree with TO policy on copies of codices being used in lieu of actual copies, but there is no basis for legal liability whatsoever unless the TO is actively encouraging violation of actual IP law.

Now, maybe a TO fears losing endorsement or support from GW. That is a very logical reason to shun the usage of copies of codices. And high profile tournaments may be receiving a LOT of support and have a LOT to lose. Legal litigation, however, would be a losing battle on behalf of GW because this practice of copying your potentially hundred dollar collector’s edition codex to prevent theft or undue wear and tear and even convenience because of how heavy they are and how many potential books you may need to carry is way too strong a case for a fair use argument.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/17 13:20:27


Post by: kronk


As a player, I don’t care. In Horus Heresy events, your units might be listed in 5 different thick-ass forge world books. You’d need a servitor to carry the fething things.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/19 01:36:25


Post by: Genoside07


I think it should reflect the type of tournament, if it was a dozen of local guys with minimum prize support, not a big deal and most likely people are working on lists and building units.
Because not all players work in gold mines and can afford everything in one big chunk.

But if it's a large event like at Adepticon with a ton of preparation like super fancy painted miniatures, etc.
I would think you would want to show up and try to present yourself as a respectable player with actual books, not a sloppy stack of photo copies.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/19 06:47:49


Post by: The Deer Hunter


Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/19 08:02:24


Post by: Slipspace


The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/19 09:34:01


Post by: Blackie


Slipspace wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.


I don't know. For starters no one would demand proof of your original item if you show up with a copy, and even if you actually sold the original book you can always claim that you still have it somewhere, you just don't remember where it is. Legally no one could do something against you in cases like this one, even if laws as written (and I'm not sure of that either) it is illegal to do it.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/19 14:37:44


Post by: macluvin


 Blackie wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.


I don't know. For starters no one would demand proof of your original item if you show up with a copy, and even if you actually sold the original book you can always claim that you still have it somewhere, you just don't remember where it is. Legally no one could do something against you in cases like this one, even if laws as written (and I'm not sure of that either) it is illegal to do it.


A very difficult precedent to set, but probably technically illegal and you would have to be a special kind of stupid to get caught. What would be arguably legal is that you basically purchase 2 copies of the codex now with the digital code for the app, so you kind of still own access to the IP via the app.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/20 15:45:37


Post by: Tawnis


I've never had any issues so long as its just been local events, if I ever went to a GT or something I'd shell out for the Codex of whatever army I decided to use. See, here's the thing about expensive codices and mountains of supplements, if I actually bought everything I need, I wouldn't be able to afford any models.

I collect, to varying degrees, most of the armies in the game. Rather than go for specific models, I'll usually just buy whatever the current discount box is (Piety/Pain, Hexfire, ect), paint it up and use those with whatever I've gotten from that army previously and pick up the occasion unit here of there to flesh out whatever list I've come up with. I have a lot of fun not sticking to one army and trying a bit of everything.

That being said, if I had to buy every codex and supplement that they made in order to play all these armies, I wouldn't be buying any more models from them, because I wouldn't have any leftover money. It would honestly probably make me sick of the game too, not having anything new to paint/build just trying to keep up with rules for what I have.

It's sites like wahapedia that keep me invested in the game. I can skim all the rules whenever I want to get an idea of new armies/lists I want to try and can print off whatever rules I need to play them. There are several times where I've been reading the site and have gone out to get something because of that, which I never would have seen elsewhere since I wouldn't have had the codex, or supplement, or random White Dwarf article, or FW sheet, or whatever else. It's what brought me back into 40k in the first place as I hadn't played since early 7th and taught myself the new rules at the end of 8th from their site before deciding to commit to 9th. Since then, I've easily spent well over a grand on models, updating my collection, but that could have easily all gone to books if I needed all the codices for: Space Marines, Astra Militarum, Grey Knights, Tau, Chaos, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Eldar, Sisters. Plus all the supplements for them and Inquisition and Assassins. If that was my barrier to entry, I never would have gotten back into the game.

Not to mention that investing in models is forever (assuming the unit isn't discontinued) where you need to replace your codex every few years. Not that big a deal for only one army, but in my case, it's just an infinite loop.

I think I got off on a bit of a tangent here, but for people like me, having printable rules be allowed is what keeps me playing the game and buying more models. What's the old expression, better half of something than all of nothing.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/20 19:05:15


Post by: macluvin


I still feel like charging money for rules is predatory, outdated, and just plain insulting. Getting a supplement for a faction whose core codex is not updated is pointless, the army doesn’t function but now it doesn’t function with more rules. Getting a reprint of the last editions rules even more so...

Knowing that you are likely 2 or 3 years away for having all your rules invalidated anyways is even worse.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/10/20 19:26:45


Post by: dewd11


Wahapedia got me into this game and it'll always be my main source for looking at the rules while playing.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/01 13:52:32


Post by: Aenar


macluvin wrote:
I still feel like charging money for rules is predatory, outdated, and just plain insulting. Getting a supplement for a faction whose core codex is not updated is pointless, the army doesn’t function but now it doesn’t function with more rules. Getting a reprint of the last editions rules even more so...

Knowing that you are likely 2 or 3 years away for having all your rules invalidated anyways is even worse.

On one side I agree with you. On the other I just want the best possible product.

I wouldn't care spending a (very) limited sum of money every month to have access to an original version of the frequently cited Russian website.
It is so well done and easy to use that I use it every single time I play, with a tablet.
But for me to be willing to pay, that sum of money would have to be very limited (€3-4 per month, max) and it should be for a website of comparable quality, if not superior. I'd expect frequent rebalancing and point updates if it were a GW resource.
No janky app to download and update, a website I can browse with any portable device I want or with my PC.

Right now the best possible rules source is that Russian one so I'm more than glad it exist and more than happy to support its development.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/04 15:56:06


Post by: Apple fox


macluvin wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Just in case.

If I buy a codex, make my copy, it is legal.

Then I sell the original GW codex, nonetheless I paid for the codex so I image I can keep my copy. Right or it is illegal?


IANAL, but my recollection from when I studied the minutiae of this is it's not legal. The copy for your own personal use is basically a back-up of the item that you own. If you no longer own the item you're not legally entitled to own the back-up.


I don't know. For starters no one would demand proof of your original item if you show up with a copy, and even if you actually sold the original book you can always claim that you still have it somewhere, you just don't remember where it is. Legally no one could do something against you in cases like this one, even if laws as written (and I'm not sure of that either) it is illegal to do it.


A very difficult precedent to set, but probably technically illegal and you would have to be a special kind of stupid to get caught. What would be arguably legal is that you basically purchase 2 copies of the codex now with the digital code for the app, so you kind of still own access to the IP via the app.


GW could just revoke the licence, unlikely anyone using a copy could really get in a situation where that was to happen. And I feel anyone that managed such a Fate would buy a new copy before doing something stupid right.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/04 17:50:11


Post by: macluvin


Yeah. Still I would cite fair use for copying the codex. I am firmly within my rights from fair use to copy codices and supplements I purchased from Gw for personal use. The TO is firmly within their right to set policy that I can’t bring photocopies of my rules to their tournament. GW is firmly within their right to stop endorsing TO’s with policy they don’t agree with. But nobody is legally wrong except for someone bringing illegal copies of material they did not purchase the rights to, to a tournament.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/15 05:00:24


Post by: Hecaton


macluvin wrote:
Yeah. Still I would cite fair use for copying the codex. I am firmly within my rights from fair use to copy codices and supplements I purchased from Gw for personal use. The TO is firmly within their right to set policy that I can’t bring photocopies of my rules to their tournament. GW is firmly within their right to stop endorsing TO’s with policy they don’t agree with. But nobody is legally wrong except for someone bringing illegal copies of material they did not purchase the rights to, to a tournament.


Even then, I'm pretty sure giving your friend a copy of a codex is not really enforceable to any meaningful degree. GW wishes it was, but GW's ideas about intellectual property are... dystopian.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/17 19:33:42


Post by: HairySticks


Without checking things, I wouldve presumed a similar situation to copied game roms. Or to music.
~ making a copy of a game or a music cd/vinyl you already own a legit copy of is totally legit. You might want to do this to preserve your original copy while using a duplicate of it.

It only becomes copyright infringement when this copy is distributed either freely or for payment doesn't really matter..

If the TO is worried about getting in hot water for it, I dont think it would be unreasonable to request to see the official copy and then have no problem with you using a photocopy of it for gameplay while the official copy is put away again to save on wear and tear.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/17 20:24:57


Post by: macluvin


Hecaton wrote:
macluvin wrote:
Yeah. Still I would cite fair use for copying the codex. I am firmly within my rights from fair use to copy codices and supplements I purchased from Gw for personal use. The TO is firmly within their right to set policy that I can’t bring photocopies of my rules to their tournament. GW is firmly within their right to stop endorsing TO’s with policy they don’t agree with. But nobody is legally wrong except for someone bringing illegal copies of material they did not purchase the rights to, to a tournament.


Even then, I'm pretty sure giving your friend a copy of a codex is not really enforceable to any meaningful degree. GW wishes it was, but GW's ideas about intellectual property are... dystopian.


Even IP law as it currently exists is dystopian and way too strong, and often at the cost of consumer quality of life. And you are very much right that enforcing that would be practically impossible.

IP law needs to be relaxed. Honestly, IP law does very little to stop people from ripping them off and provides opportunities for big companies to financially ruin the not so rich for life even if they did technically or morally nothing wrong. Chapter house and other legal precedents proved that knock offs of the real thing can easily and legally be produced and marketed, as long as you don’t explicitly call it a trademarked name and change the product enough to be even slightly distinguishable from the real thing.

GW’s handling of IP issues REALLY needs to be relaxed. Looking at what 40k used to look like, it seemed like there was a point where the IP belonged to the fans as much as it did the actual pen and ink owners. The problem is that the product is more profitable short term if you deprive the playerbase of that creativity. The other issue is that 3rd party bits manufacturers could have had an incredibly mutually beneficial relationship if they worked with GW, but GW wants to maintain what is practically a monopoly on table top war gaming. I wouldn’t be surprised if they buy out any competition that looks like they are going to be a competitive competitor for that purpose.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/18 03:42:01


Post by: Apple fox


The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.

Most of what has been said is a common use, where it’s reasonable to assume the Owners of the book or media are reasonable and using it within whats reasonable for its intent.

GW may have step over some lines, but chapter house did as well. And we do know where some things lie there as well with common use, if it is considered bad within community’s that you are trying to claim a common use, you will likely find it’s unable to be used.

But it does bring up another thing, a TO doesn’t have any real rights to enforce these for GW, they really only extend to informing GW about them.

But they can still ban them under there own rules for other reasons.
So would be more about the reasons for bans, rather than anything legal in most places.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/18 06:47:24


Post by: Hecaton


Apple fox wrote:
The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.


bs. This goes beyond 40k, it's about corporate control of media and information.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/28 00:33:12


Post by: stratigo


Apple fox wrote:
The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.

Most of what has been said is a common use, where it’s reasonable to assume the Owners of the book or media are reasonable and using it within whats reasonable for its intent.

GW may have step over some lines, but chapter house did as well. And we do know where some things lie there as well with common use, if it is considered bad within community’s that you are trying to claim a common use, you will likely find it’s unable to be used.

But it does bring up another thing, a TO doesn’t have any real rights to enforce these for GW, they really only extend to informing GW about them.

But they can still ban them under there own rules for other reasons.
So would be more about the reasons for bans, rather than anything legal in most places.


Mate, the laws are updated almost universally to extend the control of the house of mouse over what it owns so that century old copyrights never pass into public domain.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/28 10:15:56


Post by: Apple fox


stratigo wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
The laws do get updated, and honestly I don’t think they need to be loosen at all at this point.

Most of what has been said is a common use, where it’s reasonable to assume the Owners of the book or media are reasonable and using it within whats reasonable for its intent.

GW may have step over some lines, but chapter house did as well. And we do know where some things lie there as well with common use, if it is considered bad within community’s that you are trying to claim a common use, you will likely find it’s unable to be used.

But it does bring up another thing, a TO doesn’t have any real rights to enforce these for GW, they really only extend to informing GW about them.

But they can still ban them under there own rules for other reasons.
So would be more about the reasons for bans, rather than anything legal in most places.


Mate, the laws are updated almost universally to extend the control of the house of mouse over what it owns so that century old copyrights never pass into public domain.


… yes I know.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/29 08:48:53


Post by: PaddyMick


I am going to my first GT at the weekend. The only publication I really resent buying is the GT mission pack. £25 for a slim hardback that will be out of date soon. A softback or ebook or just a pdf would have been a lot better.

The tournament I am attending requires each player to bring one, which is fair enough as you need it to play the missions, but it means there will be twice as many copies there as needed if everyone follows the rules.

In reality I reckon lots of players will use wahapedia on their phones. At a smaller event, if I was the TO, I would just photocopy the missions for the players or put them up on a screen or something.

Edit: I think I remember saying all this earlier in the thread but nevermind.
Copyright is only an issue if one or more parties make it an issue, in my opinion.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/29 08:59:50


Post by: Dysartes


If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/29 09:12:39


Post by: PaddyMick


 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/30 11:36:23


Post by: Aenar


Exactly that.
Just like those who specify that recasts or 3D prints are not allowed, but then do not turn you away the day of the event.
The average TO just doesn't care. Unless they are FLGS owners that allow only stuff bought from them

Local events are not for profit, they often cost more money than what they make.
These events just help in keeping the community alive and generating interest in the game, which helps in creating and maintaining a customer base.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/11/30 12:22:59


Post by: chromedog


I did allow them at my events. I am not their IP police, and never have been.

I am not responsible for enforcing GW's IP rights. That is wholly upon them, as the actual owner of said rights.

I did not receive any prize support from GW, so I was not beholden to their tournament rules, either.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/01 16:26:37


Post by: Audustum


For the legal debate: I believe, up until the Napster case, in the U.S. it was permissible to make copies for family/friends/household members. That changed when the definition of 'friends' got way too big thanks to the Internet but I don't know if they threw it out entirely or if they just limited it.

If I was TO'ing an event, I'm not going to bother checking. I don't approve of copyright infringement in general partially because I think it's unfair to the people who made that product, but interrogating every person as to how they got a copy, whether they can produce an original, whether they're borrowing one from a friend just for this event (still allowed in the U.S. to lend your copies out, for example) is just too much of a strain for TO's to bear.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/01 22:17:55


Post by: PaddyMick


edited, please delete, I am talking rubbish!


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/02 04:06:31


Post by: stratigo


 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/02 08:30:18


Post by: Dysartes


stratigo wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability

If the tournament crowd can't - or won't - follow a simple instruction like "bring the physical book" then they are a liability, that is true.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/02 15:31:12


Post by: macluvin


 Dysartes wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability

If the tournament crowd can't - or won't - follow a simple instruction like "bring the physical book" then they are a liability, that is true.


What he's saying is that the rule could potentially exist for purely for plausible deniability purposes. If some tourney players don't comply with the rule and the TO doesn't enforce it, they can still shrug their shoulders and claim that the rule requires more resources than they have on hand to enforce or that they put enforcement of it in the player's hands because the TO and other staff had better things to do than witch hunt for scanned copies of the books.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/02 15:54:51


Post by: Slipspace


It's also just a handy cover-all rule to solve any arguments that may arise from someone using a photocopy/scan for something like a Forgeworld unit. It gives the TO an easy way to deal with the problem if there's any arguments about a rule's validity.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/02 16:22:22


Post by: Audustum


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:
The people who have been fined hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions, of $ on behalf of music rights holders probably thought that no-one would care about little old them...
But again you're conflating something that is definitely illegal (sharing copies of copyrighted material) with something that you only suspect might be illegal (someone possessing a copy, when they may or may not own the original).





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rob Lee wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A big difference there is that dealing drugs in a club is always going to be illegal


So will infringing on copyright, or piracy as it's more commonly known, always be illegal. So, no, no difference. Both are unlawful/illegal activities in the eyes of the law.

You can spin it any which way you like.

At then end of the day if you are a TO and you are not ensuring your event is 100% above board, you're at the very least a crappy TO.


Argh, this is insanity. Infringing on copyright is illegal. Possessing a copy is not illegal.

You're conflating something that is absolutely positively illegal (drug dealing) with something that at best might be illegal only if other circumstances are met (the person doesn't own an original of a copy they possess).


Just as a further note, in the U.S. at least, copyright infringement isn't always illegal either. It's civil liability only (i.e. you can be sued like if you got in a car accident but not arrested/charged/prosecuted). The U.S. is weird in that the format of your infringement and source determines whether it falls under criminal statute or not.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/02 19:28:35


Post by: macluvin


If I was a TO I would hate creating hassle by demanding to see all relevant material (and having to cross reference the list to ensure all options are contained in all the material they brought). It’s a bit of a headache, may cause a scene, and again is beyond my pay grade to enforce something that isn’t even necessarily in their IP guidelines (fair use copies of the material). The line gets way too blurry when you throw fair use in the mix. Tournament staff have better things to do than frisk down players for physical copies and check to make sure they have all relevant supplements, or to interrogate and investigate copies that could very well be legal because of fair use. Players have better things to do than carry potentially 20 pounds of books with their 2k points armies and dice and relevant cards and what not.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/03 06:55:28


Post by: stratigo


 Dysartes wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


Liability

If the tournament crowd can't - or won't - follow a simple instruction like "bring the physical book" then they are a liability, that is true.


Like many rules and laws, enforcement is deliberately spotty so that those with authority can cover their ass if need be. Or just punish someone they don't like


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/06 19:39:43


Post by: deleted20220509


 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/06 20:20:22


Post by: Aenar


 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.

/thread
I'm not sure what else could be said on this topic.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/06 21:28:59


Post by: techsoldaten


 Aenar wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.

/thread
I'm not sure what else could be said on this topic.

How about the absurdity of bringing an entire Codex, Rulebook, Supplement, etc when 5 - 10 pages cover the rules specific to your list?

The appeal of tournaments became lost on me a long time ago. At times, they seem like a group exercise in transporting needless amounts of materials.



As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/07 01:57:52


Post by: Miguelsan


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.

/thread
I'm not sure what else could be said on this topic.

How about the absurdity of bringing an entire Codex, Rulebook, Supplement, etc when 5 - 10 pages cover the rules specific to your list?

The appeal of tournaments became lost on me a long time ago. At times, they seem like a group exercise in transporting needless amounts of materials.


Tell that to an IG player that loves infantry like me

M.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/07 02:41:51


Post by: Audustum


 Wiz Warrior wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.


This is quite incendiary. To reverse it: maybe the TO actually cares about the morality of saying 'Hey, people put time and effort into this and I like it. I like using it, I like playing it. They deserve to be compensated for that and I'm uncomfortable having pirates at my event".

You shouldn't jump off a partisan (not in the political sense but just in a 'firmly taking one side' sense) so much. Everyone is human and there can be good people espousing views you don't like or agree with.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/07 03:28:59


Post by: macluvin


Audustum wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.


This is quite incendiary. To reverse it: maybe the TO actually cares about the morality of saying 'Hey, people put time and effort into this and I like it. I like using it, I like playing it. They deserve to be compensated for that and I'm uncomfortable having pirates at my event".

You shouldn't jump off a partisan (not in the political sense but just in a 'firmly taking one side' sense) so much. Everyone is human and there can be good people espousing views you don't like or agree with.


I still think its an unnecessary thing to do to make people bring a codex, up to 3 supplements (or more... who knows?) a core rule book plus armies dice and all that. Even more so to force them to put undue wear and tear constantly moving them around and opening them during games, especially considering what they paid for those printed material and double especially considering the cost of production of said material. They don't even spend any real money updating the content beyond the rules; it's mostly verbatim reprints of material from older editions and MAYBE a few extra pages of 42k era news plus the same pictures they have been using, unless they release new models as well with that codex. And they could easily just pull that material from the supplements from 8th edition as well... And printing costs are surprisingly cheap. They charge a lot of money to update a few numbers, a handful of strategems and special rules and add a datasheet or two.

That being said, photocopies of your own personal codex are ethically and legally correct for the reasons concerning wear and tear and convenience; fair use.

I also think it's even worse that GW has sold you the core game engine for 65$, then charge you for an army's rules for 40$ (that will be invalidated in 3 years tops and pretty much useless on their own within 1 year) then charge you 40$ an update/patch (of which you may need 2 just to be able to sit at the same table as other better supported armies) AND you haven't even bought an army yet. Once you add taxes 2-3 years of current gameplay costs you 200$ (unless you are marines and need to buy a second codex in that 3 year period plus heaven knows how many supplements). Video games costs way more in terms of manpower and technical resources than tabletop wargames and you only pay 60$ for a brand new one... If it wasn't for wahapedia I'm not sure I would have made any GW purchases in the past 3 years to be honest. The rules being openly (if illegally) free is the only reason GW has gotten any money out of me; that and the monopoly they hold on tabletop wargaming. Even that is wearing thin from marine fatigue and rules bloat.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2021/12/07 11:07:45


Post by: Klickor


Audustum wrote:
 Wiz Warrior wrote:
 PaddyMick wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If the TO has specified they must bring the physical book, and doesn't DQ people who don't, what's the point of setting the rule in the first place?


The point is that the rule could be there partly for the sake of appearance.
Strict rules, slavishly followed, is not something I thought would be a part of wargaming.


Exactly. Just because something stupid is official, doesn't make it any less stupid, and thus, does make it less likely to be enforced.
When rules no longer serve the purpose they were designed for, or were designed for purposes of foolishness, its easy to turn a blind eye.

Note that I did not say GW. I said GW lawyers. I've played a few GW employees in my time and they could give two figs about the state of my rules.

Its guys pushing dollies that they painted across their custom made playgrounds populated by custom made dolly houses. And there is nothing wrong with that at all. But context is important, and when viewed through that lens, suddenly the importance of a rules provenance is diminished considerably. Unless you're TFG.


This is quite incendiary. To reverse it: maybe the TO actually cares about the morality of saying 'Hey, people put time and effort into this and I like it. I like using it, I like playing it. They deserve to be compensated for that and I'm uncomfortable having pirates at my event".

You shouldn't jump off a partisan (not in the political sense but just in a 'firmly taking one side' sense) so much. Everyone is human and there can be good people espousing views you don't like or agree with.


I dont think you have to worry about 40k players snubbing GW of money. If you had every player at your event tally up the amount of money they have spent on the hobby on just GW products alone the average of that, even with a few pirates thrown in the mix, would be a huge sum not many people would honestly admit they have spent to people outside the hobby. If they add in everything around it as well and not just pure GW products they might even be ashamed of admitting that sum to their wargamer friends.

If every 40k tournament player stopped buying books from GW I doubt they would even notice the dip. Especially since those wargamers who dont know how to hold onto money probably spend that book money on more plastic they wont paint or play with for their closet/storage of shame.

If wahapedia didnt exist, GW at my club would have lost thousands if not over ten thousand dollars in sales due to people not even playing the game. Only reason I got back is due to online sources and I haven't even bought a book for 8th/9th. I am in fact right now(just took photos of the books and weighted them) selling off our clubs rule books and codexes. Despite holding lots of 40k events at our place we decided against buying the books and we don't require the players to have the physical books either. They are pretty useless and it is easier for everyone if they instead use Battlescribe and wahapedia. If needed in a rules dispute people have pdfs available anyway.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2022/04/21 22:35:02


Post by: Toofast


 Rob Lee wrote:

As I understand the law in the US (and the same is likely true here in the UK) your "copied from a friend" copy is unlawful and breaks copyright laws.



I keep seeing people parrot this all over the internet but it's objectively wrong. The law in the US is that an idea for a game, its name, title, and the methods of playing it cannot be copyrighted. You can copyright fluff and flavor text, but the actual rules are not able to be copyrighted. Look up the case DaVinci Editrice S.r.l vs Ziko Games LLC. Ziko made a carbon copy of a DaVinci game and the judge ruled they were not guilty of violating copyright laws because of the way our copyright laws about games are written. That's why Battlescribe or Waha would be under no risk even if operated out of the US. As long as you don't copy the art, fluff, or flavor text, you can copy the rules and post them wherever you want.


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2022/09/10 19:34:24


Post by: leopard


Personal take:

If the TO says bring the book, I bring the book, I will likely have various reference sheets with page numbers but the book will also be there, or books if I need more than one.

printed FAQ or anything else I want to refer to

if the TO doesn't say bring the book I may just have a summary, depending how heavy the books are

If my opponent has grubby photocopies etc as long as the game is enjoyable and any rules bending isn't too blatant then yeah whatever


As a TO, do you allow scanned and printed PDFs of rules in your event? @ 2022/09/11 14:54:13


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Toofast wrote:
 Rob Lee wrote:

As I understand the law in the US (and the same is likely true here in the UK) your "copied from a friend" copy is unlawful and breaks copyright laws.



I keep seeing people parrot this all over the internet but it's objectively wrong. The law in the US is that an idea for a game, its name, title, and the methods of playing it cannot be copyrighted. You can copyright fluff and flavor text, but the actual rules are not able to be copyrighted. Look up the case DaVinci Editrice S.r.l vs Ziko Games LLC. Ziko made a carbon copy of a DaVinci game and the judge ruled they were not guilty of violating copyright laws because of the way our copyright laws about games are written. That's why Battlescribe or Waha would be under no risk even if operated out of the US. As long as you don't copy the art, fluff, or flavor text, you can copy the rules and post them wherever you want.


My understanding of that case is that Ziko didn't do a "carbon copy", the mechanics were the same but the wordings of the rules were different.

If you copy / paste the exact wording of the rule, you're on much shakier ground than if you rewrite the rule but it is functionally identical, because the expression of the rules may be copyrightable even if the mechanics / methods / concepts contained in the rule are not. So if it goes to court and you can say you have a completely different game that just happens to have the same functionality, that would be like Ziko vs DaVinci, but if you rock up to court with a rulebook that is word for word identical to GW's, that may very well be a different matter.