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Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 01:48:46


Post by: CKO


9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 01:58:09


Post by: JNAProductions


 CKO wrote:
9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?
No-but lying would be.

If your opponent says "I'm gonna shoot my tank at your Rangers," you're not obligated to tell them you have a strat that forces the tank to only hit on 6s.
If your opponent says "I'm gonna shoot my tank at your Rangers-do you have any defensive strats you can play right now?" then telling them no is lying, and therefore cheating.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 08:02:31


Post by: Slipspace


 CKO wrote:
9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?


Absolutely not. Just coming at it from the side of practicality, how many stratagems or special rules could potentially affect a given unit? How many do I then need to divulge? As the poster above said, lying would be cheating but the onus is on the player to ask those questions if they're not sure.

This is one of my problem with stratagems. There are so many of them and they're often integral to how certain armies or units function that not knowing about them can severely mess up your plans. It also adds to the information overload when you pick up a new army. In addition to all the special rules every unit must now come loaded down with you also need to check for stratagems that could apply to them. It's also really annoying to be on the receiving end of some hidden gotcha moment and equally unsatisfying to be the one handing out the gotcha. It probably only happens once against any given opponent, but I still don't like how stratagems work.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 08:51:39


Post by: Fergie0044


 CKO wrote:
9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?


Not cheating, but depending on the setting I would call it bad sportsmanship. In a tournament - go for it you're all playing for the win. But outside of that it would strike me as extremely anti-fun. And with there being so many stratagems etc in the game these days its impossible to learn them all.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 09:48:20


Post by: Valkyrie


I'd say it entirely depends on the context:
- If I was playing a veteran player, then I'd have no issues with it at all. I've taken a fair bit of time to know most armies' particular strengths and possibly Gotchas, it's likely he's done the same.

- If it was a casual game (ie; new player, or someone trying a new army), then yeah I would inform them of a particular Gotcha.

In either case I'm very much against the rule-bending aspect of such moments, such as the YMDC threads which go on for several pages arguing about the exact English definition of one word in a particular rule. Overall though, in any case it's not cheating. Like I said it depends on the context, and in some cases it could be bad sportsmanship, but you're not obliged to tell the opponent anything unless it'd be breaking the rules.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 09:48:41


Post by: Overread


40K is an open rules system, that means whatever is in the main rule book and whatever is in your codex (and any supplements) is considered "assumed knowledge".

That means your opponent is 100% free to know all of it.


The only "hidden" information aspects are some select units, often things like assassins and such which can sometimes pop out of other units and are deployed in those units in secret. Typically this information is kept hidden, but is openly written on paper (covered) so that when the unit is revealed the player can prove that they've not just changed their mind mid game (and cna also remind themselves mid game too).




Now as to how much information you choose to volunteer to your opponent, that varies depending on the situation. At a competitive event you would not be expected to be up front about as much of it. You're there to compete and there's often a time limit so you don't have the luxury to spend half an hour going over each others armies and such prior to the game.

At any other event its totally down to you and your opponent. There's no general rule or guideline you just have to work it out between you at the time.





Also remember that part of wargames is making mistakes (its part of real war too). Even in some teaching games its good to let your opponent make a mistake and see the result of their mistake. They will learn from it and its also a good time to help them learn how to go with the flow. So they've just wasted their anti-tank shots on a tank that's immune to them. Now they've learned that, but also now they can learn how to recover from that mistake, how to keep going.

Because even players who know the game inside and out will make mistakes and forget things.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 11:17:55


Post by: tneva82


 CKO wrote:
9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?


Not really no. But as I prefer to win by skill rather than gotcha's I make sure opponent knows any unusual combo's I might have.

Makes winning more satisfying and ensures I can win consistently rather than depend on one off gotcha's.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 11:22:23


Post by: the_scotsman


if a stratagem is super integral to my army, especially if it's a brand new one, I'll definitely lay it out for my opponent as we're going over lists. Like if I'm playing thousand sons, the fact hat my 20-man block of rubrics is going to pay 1cp to infiltrate, and has a 1cp ability to shoot again if it doesn't move, and also my warlord trait lets me redeploy - that's critical info for how like 1/4 of my army and a large amount of my upfront damage is going to be working.

If my opponent is surprised by some 1cp -1 to hit ability or something...then...I dunno. Eh. I've had people get salty about that kind of stuff before, like "if you'd told me about that Lurk in the Shadows stratagem that gives you +1 to your save in cover for 1cp, I wouldn't have shot my guns at those guys!"


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 11:40:23


Post by: Platuan4th


 Valkyrie wrote:

- If I was playing a veteran player


 Valkyrie wrote:

- If it was a casual game


These two things are not mutually exclusive. Having played this game over 25 years, I'd definitely be classed as a vet player, but also definitely don't have the time these days to learn every single trick in every army and thus play more casual.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 11:55:10


Post by: Sunny Side Up


It's not cheating, but trying to rely/engineer gotcha-moments is increasingly frowned upon / seen as un-sportsmanlike.

But of course, it also varies from location to location, group to group.


Social norms in (competitive) 40K usually aren't static.



For example, 7-8 years ago, slow-playing/ending games after turn 3 or even 2 if it benefits you, was much more common, even if considered cheesy/unsportsmanlike. But over the past half decade or so, opinions/perceptions gradually changed, the behaviour became increasingly scorned, and eventually the trend culminated in TOs adopting chess-clock rules, etc.., ultimately turning "scummy-but-legal" into "not-allowed-at-this-tournament".

Seems like "Gotcha-40K" is slowly moving the same direction (if at different speed in different locations), but there're currently no agreed-upon-sanctions/community-rules against it as developed, for example, against slow-play.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 11:59:34


Post by: Valkyrie


 Platuan4th wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:

- If I was playing a veteran player


 Valkyrie wrote:

- If it was a casual game


These two things are not mutually exclusive. Having played this game over 25 years, I'd definitely be classed as a vet player, but also definitely don't have the time these days to learn every single trick in every army and thus play more casual.


You're right in that. I'd also consider myself a veteran player but prefer casual games. Those two examples were more opposite ends of the player spectrum and how Gotcha moments can vary between them.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 12:00:59


Post by: Overread


I'd argue rules "gotcha" is very different to deliberate slow play.

Deliberate slow play is a conscious action someone takes to engineer the game to their own advantage by denying their opponent time to play

Rules "gotcha" moments are very different because by and large you don't do them overtly, they happen because of how GW writes rules for the game and the diversity and volume of those rules. They would only move into cheating/unsportsmanlike when your opponent asks and you deny the information to them - ergo lie.


About the only good and sensible social approach I can think of is to enforce proper written (typed/phone) army lists. Heck a proper working app would go a long way - allowing your opponent to "slide" you their army over the app so that you can, on your phone/tablet, call up their army list, check its points, check the equipment, check the abilities etc... With special options to "hide" hidden units like assassins when their deployment location is kept hidden. (when they are inserted into units on the tabletop)


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 12:03:50


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 JNAProductions wrote:
 CKO wrote:
9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?
No-but lying would be.

If your opponent says "I'm gonna shoot my tank at your Rangers," you're not obligated to tell them you have a strat that forces the tank to only hit on 6s.
If your opponent says "I'm gonna shoot my tank at your Rangers-do you have any defensive strats you can play right now?" then telling them no is lying, and therefore cheating.


I’m not sure I agree. I mean, I see where you’re coming from like, but I have a different conclusion.

I mean, if they ask “do you have any defensive strats” is an open question. I could simply reply “yes”. I could say “well, I’ve got x CP to play with” and various variants from there, up to and including specifying a strat I would use.

What does my opponent do then? He’s already declared his shooting, so is tied to it surely? If he’s getting salty because I predicted his choice and have a defence planned, I don’t understand why that would be seen as cheating?

Maybe it’s a hangover from my WHFB days, where we never declared specific Magic Items loaded onto characters. Indeed there were specific spells and abilities, but it was all very much Find Out In Play (FOIP).

Sure, FOIP can lead to a Gotcha, and that can be frustrating. It’s happened to me before, but the only one I objected to was someone declaring a Tournament Specific Rule was in force, without discussing that variance from the core rules with me beforehand. If it’s my opponent having a layered defence strategy I didn’t account for, that’s solely on me?

I think the furthest I would go is if my army is from WD or relies on an expansion book, giving my opponent the opportunity to read it, and have it freely accessible to them during the game. Not only is refusing to let them check your Codex a dick move, but it can also raised suspicions of cheating which aren’t necessarily founded.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 12:08:16


Post by: Platuan4th


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Maybe it’s a hangover from my WHFB days, where we never declared specific Magic Items loaded onto characters. Indeed there were specific spells and abilities, but it was all very much Find Out In Play (FOIP).


Keeping that stuff secret was technically part of the WHFB rules, hence the numerous items, special rules, and spells that let you force an opponent to divulge that information.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 12:08:54


Post by: Sunny Side Up


 Overread wrote:


Deliberate slow play is a conscious action someone takes to engineer the game to their own advantage by denying their opponent time to play


Not really. Pre-chess clocks, the vast majority of "slow play" wasn't necessarily intentionally malicious, but mostly careless, because the expectation to have "equal time" or "complete all round" wasn't a widespread norm.

It definitely could be intentionally malicious in a minority of cases.


Gotcha-40K is the same. For the majority, it's a (currently) insufficiently spread expectations to declare intents, make the opponent aware of potentially devastating stratagems, etc.. though again in a minority of cases it can be intentionally malicious (as in the case of giving vage/misleading answers even if asked).

They are virtually the same things as far as competitive 40K culture goes, only perhaps 5 years lagging in how much you have to be willing to break with social norms to engage in it.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 12:12:27


Post by: the_scotsman


 Overread wrote:
I'd argue rules "gotcha" is very different to deliberate slow play.

Deliberate slow play is a conscious action someone takes to engineer the game to their own advantage by denying their opponent time to play

Rules "gotcha" moments are very different because by and large you don't do them overtly, they happen because of how GW writes rules for the game and the diversity and volume of those rules. They would only move into cheating/unsportsmanlike when your opponent asks and you deny the information to them - ergo lie.


About the only good and sensible social approach I can think of is to enforce proper written (typed/phone) army lists. Heck a proper working app would go a long way - allowing your opponent to "slide" you their army over the app so that you can, on your phone/tablet, call up their army list, check its points, check the equipment, check the abilities etc... With special options to "hide" hidden units like assassins when their deployment location is kept hidden. (when they are inserted into units on the tabletop)


Yeah, I can't think of the last time someone actually like, deliberately engineered a situation where they would be like 'ha HA, the thing you didnt know about is what i'm going right now!!"

99.9% of the time, it's just 'opponent has a plan to use a stratagem I don't know about on a unit, I walk right into a situation where that stratagem is powerful, he uses it and i go 'oh, I didn't know about that one.'"

And because it's a game of warhamer in the real universe instead of on the internet, the fact that my opponent got good use out of one stratagem does not instantly end the game in a CRUSHING DEFEAT that I have no chance of ever digging myself out of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Overread wrote:


Deliberate slow play is a conscious action someone takes to engineer the game to their own advantage by denying their opponent time to play


Not really. Pre-chess clocks, the vast majority of "slow play" wasn't necessarily intentionally malicious, but mostly careless, because the expectation to have "equal time" or "complete all round" wasn't a widespread norm.

It definitely could be intentionally malicious in a minority of cases.


Gotcha-40K is the same. For the majority, it's a (currently) insufficiently spread expectations to declare intents, make the opponent aware of potentially devastating stratagems, etc.. though again in a minority of cases it can be intentionally malicious (as in the case of giving vage/misleading answers even if asked).

They are virtually the same things as far as competitive 40K culture goes, only perhaps 5 years lagging in how much you have to be willing to break with social norms to engage in it.


yeah, it also speaks to the short memories of all the people who are like 'now that the missions are designed to end immeidately turn 5, the game is so shoooort.'

Like, do people not recall that basically all throughout 5th and 6th edition, 9 out of 10 games ended turn 3 or turn 4 by concession?


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 14:56:34


Post by: JNAProductions


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 CKO wrote:
9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?
No-but lying would be.

If your opponent says "I'm gonna shoot my tank at your Rangers," you're not obligated to tell them you have a strat that forces the tank to only hit on 6s.
If your opponent says "I'm gonna shoot my tank at your Rangers-do you have any defensive strats you can play right now?" then telling them no is lying, and therefore cheating.


I’m not sure I agree. I mean, I see where you’re coming from like, but I have a different conclusion.

I mean, if they ask “do you have any defensive strats” is an open question. I could simply reply “yes”. I could say “well, I’ve got x CP to play with” and various variants from there, up to and including specifying a strat I would use.

What does my opponent do then? He’s already declared his shooting, so is tied to it surely? If he’s getting salty because I predicted his choice and have a defence planned, I don’t understand why that would be seen as cheating?

Maybe it’s a hangover from my WHFB days, where we never declared specific Magic Items loaded onto characters. Indeed there were specific spells and abilities, but it was all very much Find Out In Play (FOIP).

Sure, FOIP can lead to a Gotcha, and that can be frustrating. It’s happened to me before, but the only one I objected to was someone declaring a Tournament Specific Rule was in force, without discussing that variance from the core rules with me beforehand. If it’s my opponent having a layered defence strategy I didn’t account for, that’s solely on me?

I think the furthest I would go is if my army is from WD or relies on an expansion book, giving my opponent the opportunity to read it, and have it freely accessible to them during the game. Not only is refusing to let them check your Codex a dick move, but it can also raised suspicions of cheating which aren’t necessarily founded.
I think you might've misread my example.

In the example, the attacking player was announcing his intention to shoot the tank at the Rangers-no dice had been rolled yet, no split-fire shenanigans, so the attacker should be able to switch targets if they decide it's better.
And, in the second set of quotes, the defending player doesn't say "Yes," they say "No." Which is a lie. Would you consider lying to your opponent about public knowledge cheating?

Moreover, I'd consider intentionally being coy with your reply (such as by simply saying "Yes," and not elaborating any further) to just kinda be a waste of time. The attacker will then have to ask "Okay, what do they do?" instead of just being upfront with them. I certainly wouldn't consider a factual, if insufficient, answer to be cheating, though.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 16:50:20


Post by: BertBert


A matter of context IMO. In a tournament setting, you shouldn't be required to explain your army to your opponent. They should know these things, it's part of their preparation for the event.

In a casual environment, withholding such information is probably not going to achieve much. Maybe you can snag a lucky victory by being deceptive or coy about these things, but you'll likely not be very popular within your group.

Then again, surprising your opponent with a stratagem they didn't know can be a nice way to introduce new players to a faction and its intricacies. Totally depends on the execution and your overall attitude, though.



Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 17:10:52


Post by: JNAProductions


 BertBert wrote:
A matter of context IMO. In a tournament setting, you shouldn't be required to explain your army to your opponent. They should know these things, it's part of their preparation for the event.

In a casual environment, withholding such information is probably not going to achieve much. Maybe you can snag a lucky victory by being deceptive or coy about these things, but you'll likely not be very popular within your group.

Then again, surprising your opponent with a stratagem they didn't know can be a nice way to introduce new players to a faction and its intricacies. Totally depends on the execution and your overall attitude, though.

I agree that you shouldn't have to explain it in advance. If they ask, though, it is public knowledge-you need to let them know.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/06 17:15:33


Post by: BertBert


Sure, I'd consider that common courtesy.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/07 17:59:14


Post by: Polonius


 Fergie0044 wrote:
 CKO wrote:
9th is an amazing edition but it has a lot of unique characteristics that can change the outcome of the game. Is using an unknown stratagem or doing something your opponent is unaware of that catches them off guard considered cheating?


Not cheating, but depending on the setting I would call it bad sportsmanship. In a tournament - go for it you're all playing for the win. But outside of that it would strike me as extremely anti-fun. And with there being so many stratagems etc in the game these days its impossible to learn them all.


Yeah, there's literally a term for behavior that's allowed by the rules but discouraged by custom: sportsmanship.



Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/07 19:32:46


Post by: Mulletdude


All this talk about information in 40k being 'open' is disingenuous at best. For a single army I could end up using 5 books to pull rules/models from. Every one of those books is behind a GW paywall where you can't read the rules if you don't own the book. Are we just assuming that every tournament player has every publication that GW has published and has read all the rules on the units and stratagems in all those publications?

I would expect my opponent to be forthcoming at the start of the game as to which stratagems are available to his army in a general sense. Example: "I can use a stratagem to allow my Sanguinary Guard to Intervene 6", "I have a stratagem to shoot a Slannesh Infantry units weapons twice", etc. I wouldn't expect them to tell me at the beginning of the game that "This strat will be used on these terminators to shoot twice", but just the general text. Gotcha moments are terrible for all involved and should be avoided at all costs. Let the skill of the players on the tabletop determine results, not gotcha moments.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/07 19:44:03


Post by: solkan


 Mulletdude wrote:
All this talk about information in 40k being 'open' is disingenuous at best. For a single army I could end up using 5 books to pull rules/models from. Every one of those books is behind a GW paywall where you can't read the rules if you don't own the book. Are we just assuming that every tournament player has every publication that GW has published and has read all the rules on the units and stratagems in all those publications?

I would expect my opponent to be forthcoming at the start of the game as to which stratagems are available to his army in a general sense. Example: "I can use a stratagem to allow my Sanguinary Guard to Intervene 6", "I have a stratagem to shoot a Slannesh Infantry units weapons twice", etc. I wouldn't expect them to tell me at the beginning of the game that "This strat will be used on these terminators to shoot twice", but just the general text. Gotcha moments are terrible for all involved and should be avoided at all costs. Let the skill of the players on the tabletop determine results, not gotcha moments.


So you show up at a tournament and expect the other player to teach you what their army can do.

What's the difference between a tournament and a regular game then?

Edit: Noting that:
A. You're having this argument on a forum on the internet where there are discussions of tactics.
B. If you were sufficiently motivated, you could go find a tactica for the other faction and get your own summary of their available stratagems.



Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/07 19:54:23


Post by: Polonius


 Mulletdude wrote:
All this talk about information in 40k being 'open' is disingenuous at best. For a single army I could end up using 5 books to pull rules/models from. Every one of those books is behind a GW paywall where you can't read the rules if you don't own the book. Are we just assuming that every tournament player has every publication that GW has published and has read all the rules on the units and stratagems in all those publications?

I would expect my opponent to be forthcoming at the start of the game as to which stratagems are available to his army in a general sense. Example: "I can use a stratagem to allow my Sanguinary Guard to Intervene 6", "I have a stratagem to shoot a Slannesh Infantry units weapons twice", etc. I wouldn't expect them to tell me at the beginning of the game that "This strat will be used on these terminators to shoot twice", but just the general text. Gotcha moments are terrible for all involved and should be avoided at all costs. Let the skill of the players on the tabletop determine results, not gotcha moments.


While I think many players understand that the game is big, and a quick rundown of what your army does is useful, I think that expecting that is probably optimistic, especially in a tournament setting.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/07 20:07:05


Post by: MinMax


 Mulletdude wrote:
All this talk about information in 40k being 'open' is disingenuous at best. For a single army I could end up using 5 books to pull rules/models from. Every one of those books is behind a GW paywall where you can't read the rules if you don't own the book. Are we just assuming that every tournament player has every publication that GW has published and has read all the rules on the units and stratagems in all those publications?

I would expect my opponent to be forthcoming at the start of the game as to which stratagems are available to his army in a general sense. Example: "I can use a stratagem to allow my Sanguinary Guard to Intervene 6", "I have a stratagem to shoot a Slannesh Infantry units weapons twice", etc. I wouldn't expect them to tell me at the beginning of the game that "This strat will be used on these terminators to shoot twice", but just the general text. Gotcha moments are terrible for all involved and should be avoided at all costs. Let the skill of the players on the tabletop determine results, not gotcha moments.
That must be a very tedious amount of pre-game discussion.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/07 20:38:51


Post by: Slipspace


 MinMax wrote:
 Mulletdude wrote:
All this talk about information in 40k being 'open' is disingenuous at best. For a single army I could end up using 5 books to pull rules/models from. Every one of those books is behind a GW paywall where you can't read the rules if you don't own the book. Are we just assuming that every tournament player has every publication that GW has published and has read all the rules on the units and stratagems in all those publications?

I would expect my opponent to be forthcoming at the start of the game as to which stratagems are available to his army in a general sense. Example: "I can use a stratagem to allow my Sanguinary Guard to Intervene 6", "I have a stratagem to shoot a Slannesh Infantry units weapons twice", etc. I wouldn't expect them to tell me at the beginning of the game that "This strat will be used on these terminators to shoot twice", but just the general text. Gotcha moments are terrible for all involved and should be avoided at all costs. Let the skill of the players on the tabletop determine results, not gotcha moments.
That must be a very tedious amount of pre-game discussion.


Yeah. It could also lead to a different type of gotcha if you forget about a certain stratagem during all this explanation, or end up using a less common stratagem because this so happens to be the 1 game in 100 where it proves useful. Sadly, the way 40k is currently designed, you'll end up with these sort of things happening every now and then because it's just not feasible to go through every last rules/stratagem interaction pre-game.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/08 06:14:44


Post by: tneva82


 solkan wrote:

What's the difference between a tournament and a regular game then?

Edit: Noting that:
A. You're having this argument on a forum on the internet where there are discussions of tactics.
B. If you were sufficiently motivated, you could go find a tactica for the other faction and get your own summary of their available stratagems.



You have multiple games in a day. That's all.

You don't have delusions about there existing competive 40k or something silly esport style? GW games are unsuitable for that. You have better luck doing competive SLEEPING event than competive GW game event.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MinMax wrote:
 Mulletdude wrote:
All this talk about information in 40k being 'open' is disingenuous at best. For a single army I could end up using 5 books to pull rules/models from. Every one of those books is behind a GW paywall where you can't read the rules if you don't own the book. Are we just assuming that every tournament player has every publication that GW has published and has read all the rules on the units and stratagems in all those publications?

I would expect my opponent to be forthcoming at the start of the game as to which stratagems are available to his army in a general sense. Example: "I can use a stratagem to allow my Sanguinary Guard to Intervene 6", "I have a stratagem to shoot a Slannesh Infantry units weapons twice", etc. I wouldn't expect them to tell me at the beginning of the game that "This strat will be used on these terminators to shoot twice", but just the general text. Gotcha moments are terrible for all involved and should be avoided at all costs. Let the skill of the players on the tabletop determine results, not gotcha moments.
That must be a very tedious amount of pre-game discussion.


Oh really? 99.99% players are smart enough to know what parts of your army are likely going to cause gotchas. Particularly after asking has opponent faced your army before. It doesn't take that much brainpower.

Remaining 0.01% have no place to play outside their home anyway.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/09 17:05:19


Post by: skchsan


I don't see why refusing to teach your opponent would be considered cheating.

Now, lying about what a certain ability does would be cheating.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/09 20:21:59


Post by: yukishiro1


Whether you're in a tournament or not, you should aim never to have an interaction determined by your opponent's lack of knowledge of your army's rules. When that does happen, the proper thing to do is to allow them to undo whatever action they had taken that was predicated upon that lack of knowledge, if it doesn't require significant undoing of the board state. I.e. to take that prior example, if you spend 1cp to give something a -1 to be hit and your opponent didn't know you had that strat and they say they would have targeted something else instead in that case, just let them do it (and don't spend the CP yourself, obviously), it's no skin off your back and makes for a more enjoyable game.

This is a game with rules spread across dozens of books, each of which costs a large amount of money. You can't expect people to be aware of every rule every army has, and you should consider it your job as the player of said army to make sure your opponent isn't ambushed by your rules. The easiest way to do that is to tell your opponent upfront about any rules you have that are likely to surprise them. That way you put it on them, not on you. If you fail to do that, and then you end up ambushing them, benefiting from that ambush becomes bad sportsmanship.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 00:40:07


Post by: solkan


So just how much time in the schedule are allotting for each of the players to be teaching their fellows about their armies?

Because, to be frank, the inevitable "You didn't mention that!" complaint goes through select highlights (because you do have a schedule to keep), and then something comes up in the game is what makes the situation untenable. There's a reason why the Privateer Press tournament guidelines ended up being "Give the other player all of your cards, you're not obligated to explain how they work." See also "If someone asks you what the threat range of your model is, stab them. Being arrested for assault or murder is less suffering for everyone."



Because frankly it's a huge amount of presumption that you deserve to be educated by the other player in the style of your choosing.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 06:19:02


Post by: yukishiro1


If you can't explain the fundamentals and important tricks of your army in 3 minutes or less, that's a you problem, and you should probably practice more until you can. If something critical then comes up later in the game that you should have explained earlier but didn't, just explain it to them at that time, before it has the chance to bite them in the butt.

It's not about "deserving," it's about making sure both parties have a fun game that's determined by who plays the better game, not by knowledge differentials. It's not a coincidence that essentially all the top players in 40k share the same view on this. Real competitors don't like to win because their opponent didn't know about something, that's a flawed victory that leaves a bitter aftertaste. If you can't win without taking advantage of your opponent's lack of knowledge, what that really means is that you're not a very good player.

Other games may have more cutthroat competitive scenes where people will happily exploit their opponent's lack of knowledge, 40k simply doesn't, and people who don't respect that tend to find themselves becoming progressively less welcome as word gets around. One of the notable things about the 40k tournament scene is actually how little disagreement there is about the primacy of sportsmanship and the unacceptability of taking advantage of your opponent, particularly if they are a newer, less experienced player. It probably comes from the lean times when it was hard enough to get 50 people to show up for a tournament in the first place, so everyone made a big effort to make sure newer players in particular felt welcomed and not taken advantage of, but thankfully it has persisted and seems to have become a permanent part of the culture.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 13:33:10


Post by: MinMax


Incidentally, how do people feel about Heroic Intervention as a "gotcha" - I frequently run into players who forget that rule, but it's from the core rulebook.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 14:12:19


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 MinMax wrote:
Incidentally, how do people feel about Heroic Intervention as a "gotcha" - I frequently run into players who forget that rule, but it's from the core rulebook.


I don't think that core game mechanics are "gotcha", but if you have models that bend/break those mechanics then it can be sporting to point them out at least once. So if you have 6" Heroic Intervention then perhaps mention that at the start of the game. If you have a model that is not normally a Character that has been turned into a Character by a Stratagem (Dreadnoughts, Knights etc) then once again it can be gentlemanly to point out the Heroic Intervention implications.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 15:06:15


Post by: yukishiro1


 MinMax wrote:
Incidentally, how do people feel about Heroic Intervention as a "gotcha" - I frequently run into players who forget that rule, but it's from the core rulebook.


I think you can fairly expect people to know the basic rules of the game. If you have special rules that change the calculation, you should let them know just like you'd let them know about any other rules you have that modify the normal rules.

That said, if someone is moving a charging unit within 3" of one of my characters for no apparent reason and it seems like it's just because they forgot the character was there and could intervene, I'd still say "are you intending to be within 3" of my character?" and give them a chance to change their placement if it was just carelessness.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 18:55:22


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I dunno guys.

I’ve read the comments, but I’m still distinctly iffy on explaining my possible defences to my opponent.

I mean, I see stratagems as secret weapon type stuff. Something I keep up my sleeve specifically to give my opponent a hard time at the right time, whether offensively or defensively.

For my opponent to expect me to explain my plan feels unsporting of him. If his intended target is there, roll the dice and see what happens. If he does so without thinking “maybe this won’t go entirely my way”, I genuinely don’t see that as being my problem?


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 19:38:04


Post by: yukishiro1


Nobody expects you to explain your plan, just to explain what special rules your army has. Your plan is how you plan to use your rules; the rule themselves are not your plan.

If you're happy taking a win because your opponent didn't have the money to buy your book to find out what tricks it has, you do you I guess? You may have trouble finding people willing to play a second game, though.

Speaking personally, if I asked someone a question about their army rules and they refused to tell me, I'd pick up my models right there and walk away in a casual game, or go to the TO in a tournament setting and request the player be issued a yellow card for bad sportsmanship.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 20:50:52


Post by: alextroy


While I don't necessarily agree to the level of disclosure some on this thread have, sharing information about common tools your army has is sporting behavior. Commonly used stratagems are something I'd share just like this unit has the Bodyguard rule, this unit is a Character, and these funky-looking chainswords on my Repentia are Sx2, AP -3, D2, -1 to Hit on a unit that re-rolls hit rolls.

For me, I draw a line between the objective of the game and the goal of the game. My objective is to win, but my goal is to have fun. I'd rather have fun than win. I don't have fun when my opponent can feel justifiably cheated.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 23:08:28


Post by: MinMax


yukishiro1 wrote:
Nobody expects you to explain your plan, just to explain what special rules your army has.

Speaking personally, if I asked someone a question about their army rules and they refused to tell me, I'd pick up my models right there and walk away in a casual game, or go to the TO in a tournament setting and request the player be issued a yellow card for bad sportsmanship.
Well, hold on. Are we supposed to disclose everything to our opponents, or are we explaining things when asked?

Unless I'm specifically playing a teaching game, I give my opponent my army list to look over, and I ask them if they have any questions. That's the end of the conversation, unless they have something they want to discuss. I'll happily tell them all the details of an individual unit, a relic, a warlord trait, etc if asked, but I'm not going to regurgitate every rule in the codex just in case it's their first time playing against the army.

If my opponent asks me "can you buff your Plague Marines' damage in the Fight phase?" I'll reply "yeah I can do Trench Fighters for an extra Attack, and this guy here lets them deal mortal wounds on 6s to wound". If my opponent doesn't ask, and charges in, I don't feel obliged to warn them - in fact, who's to say they aren't already aware?

I make a point of treating my opponents like adults, who don't need their hands held.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 23:19:27


Post by: yukishiro1


You should ask them if they want an overview at the start of the game and give it to them if they say yes, then fully and completely answer any questions they have during the game.

I personally would go beyond that and also check in if I see my opponent doing something that doesn't seem to make any sense and could only be explained by forgetting one of my rules (i.e. coming within 6" of my character that has 6" heroics when they didn't have to and there is no reason to do so) - and from what I can tell, most top tournament players would do the same - but I realize this is probably beyond what you can expect from some people, who may be unable to resist the temptation to take advantage in that situation.

I personally don't ever want to win a game because my opponent forgot or was unaware of something, that doesn't feel like a real victory to me. So by the same token, if someone forgets to, say, do a psychic power before moving on to the shooting phase, I'll happily let them go back and cast it, as long as there hasn't been a change in the board state that gives them information they didn't have before that impacts their decision. My impression is this is also pretty standard among tournament players.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 23:31:17


Post by: Castozor


yukishiro1 wrote:


I personally don't ever want to win a game because my opponent forgot or was unaware of something, that doesn't feel like a real victory to me. So by the same token, if someone forgets to, say, do a psychic power before moving on to the shooting phase, I'll happily let them go back and cast it, as long as there hasn't been a change in the board state that gives them information they didn't have before that impacts their decision. My impression is this is also pretty standard among tournament players.

Interesting point, we generally allow take backsies but there are exceptions. If you remembered half way trough your shooting phase that a certain unit was supposed to take an action but didn't, I'm sorry but you just forgot. Is it bad to lose games like that? Yeah I guess but people aren't perfect and sometimes we forget things, if you moved to the psychic phase and said: oops I meant to do an end of movement phase action that's different to me. One is just after you are supposed to do it, the other is halfway trough your turn. At the end of the day I think most people would like games were both play next to perfectly and the better player wins but reality happens especially in more friendly games. People forget or misplay, it happens. Those wins or losses aren't tainted to me.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 23:43:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


To be entirely fair to yukishiro, my view may be more limited than the OP intended. That’s entirely on me.

Looking back at the OP, he did mention Special Rules.

Through that specific lens? Yes it is absolutely sporting to be candid and honestly so. For instance, Quantum Shielding. It’s been through at least two iterations, so even long term players who don’t play Necrons might be confused. So it’s absolutely being a good sport, when asked, to explain what the rule does.

Now, me personally? I’d rather get that out the way at the start of the game. And my opponent better have their Codex and a copy to the FAQ they intend to rely on.

That is quite different to my opponent trying to pre-empt my stratagem usage.

Though I still maintain its unsporting for my opponent to expect me to answer hypotheticals. If you want to target, say, my Annihilation Ark, and I’ve explained Quantum Shielding, and mentioned stratagems exist which can benefit the unit? That’s enough. Because if I spell everything out, where’s the strategy for me?

I don’t mind for one second giving them a tactical overview. But strategic insight is too much.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/10 23:43:32


Post by: yukishiro1


That's the question of whether the board state has changed. You can't go back if the board state has changed in a way that impacts the decision to do whatever it was you were going to do, because that's in effect rewarding them for forgetting.

E.x. if someone forgets to cast a targeted MW power, gets halfway through their shooting phase and brings your hero down to 1 wound and now wants to go back and use their targeted MW power to make sure it dies, no, they can't do that, because they're benefitting from information they didn't have at the time. But if they have a psyker out of smite range that has only a single buff power and there's only a single target it could go on, and they forget to do that, it probably isn't a problem to let them go back and do it even halfway through their shooting phase, because no information they gained in-between could have changed their plan.

At a tournament I would check in at the beginning of the game to see how the other player feels ahead of time, though, so everyone is on the same page. I.e. "How do you want to deal with forgetting things? Ok to go back if the board state hasn't changed? Or hardcore 'nope, you said you were moving to the next phase, no going back no matter if you realize 2 seconds later that you forgot to do something critical?'" And I'll leave it up to them which to choose.

In my experience playing hardcore and not talking to each other about intent or your rules, not allowing any going back, etc actually tends to make the games longer and more tedious, because people then feel the need to double and triple check everything they do. Certainly that's what I do in that situation, whereas if I was playing with someone less uptight, I play a lot quicker because I know we're playing by intent and being flexible with one another.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/11 00:13:34


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Oh you absolutely need to communicate.

Many many many years ago, some douche nozzle did an article on Warseer (yes that long ago!) about the “psychology of 40K” which was basically not saying anything beyond “your turn” to your opponent.

I’m guessing we can all share a pretty dim view of such behaviour.

But in this instance, to recap my feels?

1. Very happy to explain my datacard and army rules to my opponent. Copy of codex, supplement, WD article and FAQ readily accessible for my opponent to read.

2. Asking me to react before you act, that’s not sporting. Because I don’t feel that’s how stratagems specifically are meant to work. They’re my Get Out Of Jail free cards if you like. A wee advantage to be used at my discretion and my discretion alone.

3. Absolutely on board with the whole “does it change the board” as ably described by yukishiro above.

4. If my opponent is about to skip a phase? I’ll remind them. This one specifically stems from an edition change of WHFB, where the timing of the Magic Phase changed. When you’re A Sad Old Git like wot I r, you appreciate “wait, you’re skipping your psychic phase?” type reminders are welcome.

Sportsmanship. That’s what counts. It’s one thing to capitalise on a tactical blunder. It’s quite another to be a dick.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/11 00:47:01


Post by: Castozor


Eh I agree in principle but if you forgot to cast a certain power even though nothing changed in between board state wise, you are half way into your shooting phase and it's on you to remember your on rules. I would not allow you to attempt to cast it at that point.
Generally the only thing we allow to roll back that far into a different phase are things that the game says MUST happen, like a combat we forgot about or a morale test. Everything else is up to the players to remember. Does it make sense your Terminators forgot to shoot at a unit in front of them? Nope, but by now we are in my movement phase and really it's on you.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/11 01:06:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It’s definitely contextual.

If you’ve missed a phase, it’s on me to remind you as you move on to the next. Because if I wait until you’ve rolled dice? Maybe I’m only reminding because your roll was unfavourable?

Likewise, if you’ve got ahead of yourself, then realise your shooting (for argument sake) could’ve been better structured? If it’s mid-phase, that’d a no-no for me. Certainly not an entire phase do over.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/11 01:45:15


Post by: yukishiro1


 Castozor wrote:
Eh I agree in principle but if you forgot to cast a certain power even though nothing changed in between board state wise, you are half way into your shooting phase and it's on you to remember your on rules. I would not allow you to attempt to cast it at that point.


Why not? If there's no harm, why say no for the sake of saying no? I mean you can obviously play how you want to, it just seems odd to insist on something that amounts to a feels bad for your opponent when there's no actual reason for it.

Obviously you can't go back and do something after your opponent starts their turn, because once your opponent starts doing stuff that\s almost always going to be a change in the board state. But if you spot something during your own turn and nothing has changed re: the board state, I don't see any actual reason why you shouldn't be able to go back and fix it, and several reasons why I should let you (your feelings, assuming you want to, the possibility that the same might happen to me later, and the benefit to the game as a whole that comes from it being determined by tactics, not brain farts), so it seems like a no-brainer to me to let that happen.

It also seems problematic to me to have unclear standards about how far you can go back, because that creates the possibility for disagreements and bad feelings. If you can't tie your "no" to some actual principle like the board state, I don't know how you can decide when "too much time has passed" vs " no, that one's ok," and that has the potential for people to start arguing about whether things are being applied fairly to the actions of both players. Like if I told the opponent he couldn't go back and do something, despite no change to the board state, I wouldn't feel able to then ask to do anything myself later that wasn't strictly within the normal sequence, because I'd be afraid he'd construe it as me playing by one set of rules for me and a different set of rules for him.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/11 03:40:21


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I don't always go back in time, but when I do, it's to allow somebody to do something they forgot to do that was a no-brainer. This is not the same as allowing someone to do something different with the same piece. Because that could lead to a time flux. And that's bad.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/11 03:59:56


Post by: yukishiro1


That's why playing by intent is so useful. If you say "I'm going to use this guy to get engage" and then afterward you mistakenly move him an inch in the wrong direction so he doesn't qualify, it's not a big deal to fix the movement when you realize it (assuming again it hasn't impacted the board state). But if you haven't announced your intention, your opponent may think you're trying to pull a fast one, even though really you just made a technical error. When you announce your intent, most things become a no-brainer, as you and your opponent both know exactly what you were trying to do.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/12 14:17:48


Post by: Azuza001


If we are talking tournament only here then other than myself I prefer to let my opponent know about anything that might catch them off guard in the game we are about to play from the start. An example would be "all my space wolves can heroicly intervene and there is a strat to make one do it 6" instead of 3."

Beyond that it comes down to questions asked. I had a game once where I asked "do you have anything of yours that can deep strike" my opponent said no (8th ed game) and then first turn said "I am picking these guys up, they will be deep striking next turn". I pointed out I asked him if he could do that and he said no.... the response was "they were not deep striking, but I didn't ask if anything could redeploy once on the table...."

People who know your intentions on asking questions and purposely are deceptive about their answer because you didn't ask the question in the correct way to me are just there to win, not have fun. Thankfully this was not a tournament game and the answer was "dude, you knew my intention when I asked. If that is how you play the game fine" and I just declined future offers to play against said person. Funny how soon after he switched games because no one at the flgs wanted to play him...

In a tournament setting this would piss me off and I would definitely let the TO know how it went and why I would not be interested in coming back next time if that's the kind of thing I continued to run into. Winning with a gotcha isn't cheating, but it isn't fair either. Winning because your opponent didn't know the rules means it wasn't a fair fight to begin with, myself I always want both sides to start with the basic fair playing field of having an idea what the opponents army is capable of.

But the onus is on the opponent as well. I ask at the beginning how much have they played. If they say "this is my 5th game" I try and explain the kinds of questions you should ask before starting when going over the army lists. If they say "I have been playing since the start of 5th edition regularly " then if they don't ask me what a relic does when I tell them it's on my chr then at this point I feel it's on them.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/12 15:08:55


Post by: Nurglitch


I think this game works best when players cooperate to make sure their intentions align with the rules. Like, if me winning or losing requires my opponent to make a mistake with the rules, or not have an idea of what's going to happen, then that's bad.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/13 06:49:22


Post by: Blackie


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating?

No, not at all. Actually I consider it healthy and fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 alextroy wrote:
While I don't necessarily agree to the level of disclosure some on this thread have, sharing information about common tools your army has is sporting behavior. Commonly used stratagems are something I'd share just like this unit has the Bodyguard rule, this unit is a Character, and these funky-looking chainswords on my Repentia are Sx2, AP -3, D2, -1 to Hit on a unit that re-rolls hit rolls.

For me, I draw a line between the objective of the game and the goal of the game. My objective is to win, but my goal is to have fun. I'd rather have fun than win. I don't have fun when my opponent can feel justifiably cheated.


Absolutely. But I don't have fun if my opponent dictates me what should I do to counter/prevent his moves, because otherwise his powerful combos will catch me off guard. I'd rather play with the intel I have and see what happens. Of course if someone asks about the opponent's stuff the answers should be honest.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/13 11:46:12


Post by: Rik Lightstar


I always try to go into a game at the most forgiving level of sportsmanship possible, meaning for example:

- Let my opponent change a decision if the rest of the "game state" hasn't changed.
- Give all of the information I'd want or think they'd need when it might influence a decision.
- Check in with them if it looks like they've forgotten something.

However, this is limited to how they reciprocate, I'll then play down to their level based on how they act through the game. I'll happily stop acting that way if it's not an attitude that's returned.

I don't see any great achievement in winning through "gotchas" or "misdirection" in relation to rules and game mechanics. Any surprises I spring on an opponent should be tactical not rule interaction based.

It's a game and the "social contract" so to speak is that you're playing on an even footing with the outcome determined by skill, decision making and luck.

Rik


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 03:34:49


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


We live in the age of the internet. If you didn't know super simple combos, that's honestly on you. Zero info is hidden. We have people doing codex reviews and tactics, whether it be from Goonhammer or 1d4chan.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 06:13:04


Post by: Rik Lightstar


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We live in the age of the internet. If you didn't know super simple combos, that's honestly on you. Zero info is hidden. We have people doing codex reviews and tactics, whether it be from Goonhammer or 1d4chan.


This attitude simply doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny....

There are currently 35 Factions listed on the GW Webstore, let's assume someone plays one other game and it's a relatively simple one like Underworlds, but hang on there's another 32 Factions for that.

Lets take a very conservative estimate of 4 combos on average per Faction, each comprising 3 components.

That gives us 268 "combos" with 804 individual components.

Suddenly it becomes apparent that for a lot of people with a job, family, another hobby, whatever that the level of interaction and number of individual pieces to the puzzle can make it difficult.

Rik


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 09:09:59


Post by: addnid


It is better for you (well your rep, but that is what this thread is about really, innit ?) to lose a game at a tournament because you were a good sportsman and told your opponent "well I can do that, so..." and then your opponent wins thanks to your kindness.
If you win by skimping on info, it could go down fine (especially if the tournament is full of players who play very often), but it could also not... And you risk coming off as that guy.

Most tourneys I were at, people where quite informative, and so am I, and we are all quite happy, even when we lose because ther opponent does "OK thanks, so now you told me that, I will do this instead".
Of course you can't remind someone all the time about stuff, else you don't have time to finish a game. Just a few things turns 1 and 2. Try to put yourself in the opponent' shoes.

It is toy soldiers, lets be nice about it (at least with an opponent you have no reason to suspect is a douch)

I play soccer in a football club, the mentality is horrible, veryone tries to cheat all the time, the referees are rarely fair. I want the exact opposite of that in anything else I do.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 16:43:22


Post by: skchsan


 Rik Lightstar wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We live in the age of the internet. If you didn't know super simple combos, that's honestly on you. Zero info is hidden. We have people doing codex reviews and tactics, whether it be from Goonhammer or 1d4chan.


This attitude simply doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny....

There are currently 35 Factions listed on the GW Webstore, let's assume someone plays one other game and it's a relatively simple one like Underworlds, but hang on there's another 32 Factions for that.

Lets take a very conservative estimate of 4 combos on average per Faction, each comprising 3 components.

That gives us 268 "combos" with 804 individual components.

Suddenly it becomes apparent that for a lot of people with a job, family, another hobby, whatever that the level of interaction and number of individual pieces to the puzzle can make it difficult.

Rik
I still don't think the opponent has the obligations to teach his/her opponent what his/her army does.

Sure, in a friendly setting, where you're just trying to have fun, I could see one willing to teach the other, but by no means should that player be REQUIRED to teach the other player. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

On an alternate take, what if it makes it unfun for you when you have to teach the other player how to handle/beat/outsmart my army? What if what you want is a game of wits (augmented by luck of the dice), and not tutorial game? What if you want an opponent that knows what he's doing so the game doesn't end up taking 4 hours to complete, when it should've been over hour and a half ago? Why should one's fun necessarily be the cost of having a "sportsman-like" game?

It's one thing to question the motives/intent for fabricating 'gotcha' moments, but by no means that would be considered 'cheating'. You sure were being 'cheap' but definitely not 'cheating'.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 19:16:57


Post by: Sarouan


 skchsan wrote:
I still don't think the opponent has the obligations to teach his/her opponent what his/her army does.


Also, people don't have the obligation to be polite to each other, but if one is getting rude, it's perfectly normal to call him/her that.

Basically, it's just common courtesy and fairplay. Some people think that's not their role, fine. Just don't be surprised by the social consequences.

To me, it's not cheating. It's just being a dick to the other.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 19:57:43


Post by: skchsan


Sarouan wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
I still don't think the opponent has the obligations to teach his/her opponent what his/her army does.


Also, people don't have the obligation to be polite to each other, but if one is getting rude, it's perfectly normal to call him/her that.

Basically, it's just common courtesy and fairplay. Some people think that's not their role, fine. Just don't be surprised by the social consequences.

To me, it's not cheating. It's just being a dick to the other.
Right, but it's almost as if people are saying being a dick is cheating as far as game of 40k goes.

Or rather, in order to not cheat in 40k is to not be a dick and lay out everything for your opponent because that's sportsmanship.

I'm just having a real hard time following that logic. This is like saying ignorance of the player that doesn't know is ok, but it's wrong for player that knows to not disclose a certain information because that would be maliciously withholding on key information. If it's so important, I think the responsibility should fall on the person who didn't know to know. It just means they were unprepared for the event. Let's face it - 99.99% of the game's rules are posted in internet if you know where to look. The responsibility shouldn't fall on the "cheating" player if his/her opponent didn't know how to use the internet. What if someone who actually knew all the rules but likes to mentally tire out the opponent with incessant queries or cause him to put his guard down because he thinks he's playing against noob? Then who's the one that's "cheating"? Would hustling the other player count as cheating?

Common courtesy, particularly in time constrained setting such as tournaments (after all, the OP is posted on tournament discussion subforum), would also encompass not requiring your opponent to explain his/her army in fine details so you understand his army - you should've done your home work and should already have a working idea on how your opponent's army functions.

IMO, showing up at a tournament expecting your opponents to teach you the in's and out's of his/her army is more of unfair thing to do because that's that much more time unnecessarily spent. I don't think its unfair for the other player to tell him/her "well, you should've done your home work, really, but here is my list - if you have any questions, I can answer them, but I don't want to sit and have to explain what each unit/stratagems do, and specifically what you need to watch out for."

P.S. & final edit: I would be more inclined to believe that we all, as human beings, have moral obligations to be polite to each other. Rude is what you call "things" when they lack the moral obligations to be polite.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 20:08:11


Post by: JNAProductions


I think there’s a disconnect.

So, two statements, to agree or disagree with:

1) You are not required to let your opponent know if they make a bad move, or forget a rule of yours until it’s too late. It may be nice to, but it ain’t cheating not to.

2) Lying to your opponent about your army is cheating. Saying something like “You have no penalties to hit my Venom,” in their movement phase so they move something to target it, and then using their -1 to be hit rule in shooting isn’t just rude, it’s cheating.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 20:57:57


Post by: yukishiro1


 skchsan wrote:
What if what you want is a game of wits (augmented by luck of the dice), and not tutorial game?


"My opponent didn't know about my army's special rules" isn't a contest of wits, it's a contest of knowledge, in a hobby where knowledge is gated behind expensive books. Most competitors don't find "I won the game because my opponent didn't know I could do something" a satisfying victory. If you enjoy the kind of victory that comes from your opponent not knowing the rules, more power to you I guess if you can find a bunch of like-minded people, but it's not how most people in the hobby feel, and that's particularly true when it comes to tournaments.

Competitive 40k is actually quite interesting because it's the complete opposite of cutthroat, at least when it comes to tabletop "manners." Even people who play the most cutthroat competitive lists, taking advantage of the most dubious and obviously unintended of interactions, will typically bend over backwards to make sure your actual experience of playing them is positive and friendly and that you don't feel like you lost because of a lack of information or because you were ambushed with strange rules interactions. In fact, generally the more a player relies on a "gimmick" to win the game, the more likely they are to fully explain that gimmick to you ahead of time to make sure you're aware of it.

So while it isn't technically "cheating" to ambush your opponent with rules, it is very much on the list of behaviors that get you labelled as a bad competitor in 40k.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 21:07:00


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Rik Lightstar wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We live in the age of the internet. If you didn't know super simple combos, that's honestly on you. Zero info is hidden. We have people doing codex reviews and tactics, whether it be from Goonhammer or 1d4chan.


This attitude simply doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny....

There are currently 35 Factions listed on the GW Webstore, let's assume someone plays one other game and it's a relatively simple one like Underworlds, but hang on there's another 32 Factions for that.

Lets take a very conservative estimate of 4 combos on average per Faction, each comprising 3 components.

That gives us 268 "combos" with 804 individual components.

Suddenly it becomes apparent that for a lot of people with a job, family, another hobby, whatever that the level of interaction and number of individual pieces to the puzzle can make it difficult.

Rik

Let's be realistic here, it isn't exactly 35 Factions. Many of them share exact statlines (Chaos Knights and Imperial Knights ring a bell?), many Factions share similar Strats (just because Eldar don't have Auspex EXACTLY it doesn't mean you don't know what it does essentially), and there are Subfactions that have pretty much the same rules. You don't even NEED exact memorization for this.

If it's a week after a codex has been released whatever, but a couple of weeks to a month? You should know better.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 21:08:41


Post by: skchsan


yukishiro1 wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
What if what you want is a game of wits (augmented by luck of the dice), and not tutorial game?


"My opponent didn't know about my army's special rules" isn't a contest of wits, it's a contest of knowledge, in a hobby where knowledge is gated behind expensive books. Most competitors don't find "I won the game because my opponent didn't know I could do something" a satisfying victory. If you enjoy the kind of victory that comes from your opponent not knowing the rules, more power to you I guess if you can find a bunch of like-minded people, but it's not how most people in the hobby feel, and that's particularly true when it comes to tournaments.

Competitive 40k is actually quite interesting because it's the complete opposite of cutthroat, at least when it comes to tabletop "manners." Even people who play the most cutthroat competitive lists, taking advantage of the most dubious and obviously unintended of interactions, will typically bend over backwards to make sure your actual experience of playing them is positive and friendly and that you don't feel like you lost because of a lack of information or because you were ambushed with strange rules interactions. In fact, generally the more a player relies on a "gimmick" to win the game, the more likely they are to fully explain that gimmick to you ahead of time to make sure you're aware of it.

So while it isn't technically "cheating" to ambush your opponent with rules, it is very much on the list of behaviors that get you labelled as a bad competitor in 40k.
It's a game of wits precisely because you expect your opponent to know everything you're going to do (my army rules), and you know everything your opponent is going to do (their army rules). Then, it becomes about how you create advantage when playing with an open hand (the army list). You know that thing is coming, you just don't know how it's going to come at you or play out (since dice).

So are you saying:

1. Your opponents should be aware of your financial situation and work around it, since the rulebooks for the game are "so" expensive?
2. You should be morally inclined/responsible for making sure your opponent is up to date on the rules, because otherwise it's not a honorable win?
3. People will feel better about losing to somebody if how they were going to lose was explained to them beforehand?

Last time I checked, it's more rude to be "that guy" who doesn't come prepared to an event (i.e. doesn't bring his own dice, borrows other's rulebooks/rulers, asks others to check the rules for them instead of checking it your own, touches others' models with CHEETOS POWDER COVERED FINGERS, etc). And, knowing others' armies and how they work most certainly falls under 'preparation for an event'.

I would be inclined to believe that people who consistently place top in tournaments are practicing against other factions in preparation to play well at events. In saying, not knowing how others' armies work is largely attributed to your lack of experience, exposure, and/or interest in the game and not because the other person 'cheated' (with single quotes) you. One's lack of experience is not the fault of the experienced.

Also, if you're rules lawyering and relying on exploiting the ambiguity in the rules as the basis for your wins, then you ARE cheating because you are just straight up lying and making up rules. If you're going to rely on technicality, then you should be playing with an arbitrator/judge at an arm's length than telling your opponent "this is actually what the rules mean, even though it reads otherwise."


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/16 23:09:48


Post by: yukishiro1


I'm just telling you how it is. You can disagree as much as you want and insist that taking advantage of your opponent not knowing your rules is fair game and shows what a good tactician you are. I'm not interested in fighting you over it, it's your games you're playing.

It's just not how most people in the hobby feel, so you may have trouble finding like-minded people, and if you try to play that way on the tournament circuit, you are likely to develop a bad reputation. People will evaluate you by the prevailing sportsmanship standards of the hobby, whether or not you agree with those standards.

40k competitive etiquette is very much that you should not take advantage of people's lack of knowledge of your rules, and that you should be open to explaining those rules to them if they ask. You can disregard that etiquette as you wish, and at your own peril.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/17 00:08:40


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I would say that core rules things that people should know better (like Heroic Intervention) I will not mention.

But if my army has a special rule that does a thing? I will absolutely mention it. Some of them should even be mentioning without the opponent having to ask.

Just recently this bit me in the ass because I played against someone who did know mono-Slaanesh could advance and charge (near characters). To me, it is an obvious thing about the army that *everyone* knows, so I didn't even say it. When it finally came up, it was far too late - his whole deployment had been predicated on me not advancing and charging. We would have had to restart the game from before the deployment phase.

That was a real feels bad moment.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/17 20:14:32


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


That's absolutely not something to feel bad about, and that's your opponent's own fault.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/17 23:09:39


Post by: yukishiro1


A ruined game because someone didn't know a rule is something it's perfectly reasonable to feel bad about, and discussing whose fault it is doesn't change the fact that the game was ruined because someone didn't know about a rule.

If you personally enjoy winning a game before it even starts because your opponent didn't know your army's rules, you do you - honestly, that's not being snarky - but many of us don't find a game like that enjoyable, so it is pretty much the definition of "feels bad" when it happens.





Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/17 23:36:16


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


If you have units that "step outside" the standard rules such as Keepers of Secrets that can Advance and Charge then I think it is sporting to tell your opponent before the game. This isn't real war where you take every advantage including surprise about your capabilities. In war you don't want to play the other guy again. In wargaming you should want the other guy to want to play you again.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/17 23:49:32


Post by: Argive


Getting wins purely based on an error is feel bads IMO.

Back in 8th I was playing an ITC game to help someone practice for a tourney. My oponent teleported a unit of DG termies as close to shadow specters as he could as they were really doing the work against his pox walker blobs.

I declared forewarned (CWE strategem where I can immediately fire at a unit arriving via DS if farseer is nearby) I assumed he was aware of the stratagem as its a pretty well known one.

Despite the offer of a take back (as I felt it was really harsh) he stuck to his move, and we played on. He lost 3 blightlords crippling his unit and pretty much costing him the game.
In his words we were playing a tourney simulation game so any mistakes had to be worn and we both made some goofs up to that point. However Id say this is perfect example of a gotcha moment.

In a casual pick up game I would insist my opponent re-deploy out of range/ change deploy location coz its pure gotcha moment.

BUT, i think it is also on you as the player to gather intel on your enemy. I.e. "Do you have any way to increase this units movement?" "Whats this units shooting? Oh ok. Can you improve this units shooting with anything?" And so on.

Pretty much all the unit information is declared at the start during deployment/ list introduction commonly. But lets be real nobody will remember entire enemy loadout from in a torrent of information. Therefore asking questions when planning strategy is mark of good general IMO.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/18 01:01:31


Post by: alextroy


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I would say that core rules things that people should know better (like Heroic Intervention) I will not mention.

But if my army has a special rule that does a thing? I will absolutely mention it. Some of them should even be mentioning without the opponent having to ask.

Just recently this bit me in the ass because I played against someone who did know mono-Slaanesh could advance and charge (near characters). To me, it is an obvious thing about the army that *everyone* knows, so I didn't even say it. When it finally came up, it was far too late - his whole deployment had been predicated on me not advancing and charging. We would have had to restart the game from before the deployment phase.

That was a real feels bad moment.
The only flaw on your side is that you didn't share the rules of your faction trait at the beginning of the game. Not telling your opponent about your Locus of Swiftness is like not telling your opponent about your Chapter Tactic. I always tell my opponent what that is and what it does.

It's not like anyone ran mono-Slaanesh before 9th Edition


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/18 17:34:41


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Right right, I should have said something.

I assumed people knew, but even something like an army trait for one of the strongest armies in the game can be unknown, not to mention obscure things like specific Stratagems or WLTs. That game was evidence that the game is too big to remember now.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/18 22:41:34


Post by: PaddyMick


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Right right, I should have said something.

I assumed people knew, but even something like an army trait for one of the strongest armies in the game can be unknown, not to mention obscure things like specific Stratagems or WLTs. That game was evidence that the game is too big to remember now.


Amen. Especially for new players who are going to struggle to remember even all the rules for their own army, nevermind anyone else's.

There must of plenty of innocent 'gotchas' but it is heartening that the general feeling seems to be that we should reduce the incidence of them occuring at all. No one wants to see this kind of thing again:



For young or non-uk readers, that's TV personality Noel Edmunds with a 'Gotcha' award.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/18 23:03:02


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


I find the pre-game ritual usually includes a run-down of each other's lists, highlighting things that step outside the normal rules. Time is tight at tourneys, but a quick discussion is worth the time investment. Usually starts with "Have you played against this army before?" It's not a full Codex preview, but at least cover the shenanigans. I'll remind my opponent of my Chapter tactics, Warlord Trait, key relics and maybe some unique DA Strats that I am sure to use.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/19 04:30:40


Post by: Argive


In the words of Achilles:

"Get up, Prince of Troy! Get up! I won't let a stone take my glory!"


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/19 09:36:45


Post by: Sarouan


To be honest, the topic isn't really about honest mistakes/ assumptions the other player knows. It's more about the players who know the other player doesn't know, takes full advantage of it and decide not to say anything before winning only thanks to that and think / gloat about how he's a great competitor because of it.

To me, that's a true "gotcha" moment. And I still think it's not cheating per se, but it's just being a dick to the other...so it's normal to face the social consequences of it, meaning bad reputation as a competitor and people less willing to engage / play with you in the future.

I also believe it's not the norm and that most of the high level competitors know perfectly a bad reputation isn't especially worth a perfect win record. Particularly when sportmanship begins to be a factor to evaluate you as one of the best.

After all, knowing that you won just because the other player wasn't aware of the rules of what you were doing doesn't make you that great a tactician per se. It just means you took advantage of your opponent's weakness, not of your own strong points. And you learn nothing much from your own victory either.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/19 21:07:01


Post by: skchsan


Sarouan wrote:
To be honest, the topic isn't really about honest mistakes/ assumptions the other player knows. It's more about the players who know the other player doesn't know, takes full advantage of it and decide not to say anything before winning only thanks to that and think / gloat about how he's a great competitor because of it.

To me, that's a true "gotcha" moment. And I still think it's not cheating per se, but it's just being a dick to the other...so it's normal to face the social consequences of it, meaning bad reputation as a competitor and people less willing to engage / play with you in the future.

I also believe it's not the norm and that most of the high level competitors know perfectly a bad reputation isn't especially worth a perfect win record. Particularly when sportmanship begins to be a factor to evaluate you as one of the best.

After all, knowing that you won just because the other player wasn't aware of the rules of what you were doing doesn't make you that great a tactician per se. It just means you took advantage of your opponent's weakness, not of your own strong points. And you learn nothing much from your own victory either.
And how can one know whether their opponent knows their army or not or needs 'my army 101' to every opponent they meet? In what ways are we bound by the moral obligations to ask each and every opponent "did you ever play against my faction? if not, would you like a comprehensive overview of my army so that you are not caught off guard by 'gotcha!' moments?"

This is precisely why we are arguing that it is the responsibility of the player that doesn't know to ask the specific, relevant questions, instead expecting the other player to give a full run down of all the key points and nuances of their army unsolicited because that's 'sportmanship' and your moral obligation to fellow hobbyists.

There is no moral obligations to make sure my opponent is on same footing as me. In tournament settings, everyone is expected to come prepared to a certain degree. And because of that expectation, the underlying assumption is that "if my opponent has any specific questions, they will ask." It's completely understandable to not understand others' army 100%, but its a whole different issue when you ask "hey, I never played against DE despite all the meta hype right now. What are your strongest units? What does that unit do? What does this unit do? What are your stratagems?"

Under no circumstances are you expected nor required to tell/instruct your opponent on how to beat you, or rather, how not to lose to you.

Now, I'm not claiming this is THE ONLY questions you should be asking/answering, but acceptable kinds of questions would be specific, relevant, and would look like somewhere in the lines of:
"which one of your units are CORE?"
"any non-troop units ObSec?"
"what kind of deep strike options do your units have?"
"do you have any faction specific interrupting stratagems or abilities that I need to take into consideration during the game".
"can I see your codex/print outs on your stratagems so I can familiarize them myself?"

There's nothing "ass" about the guy that didn't answer the questions that weren't asked to him.

In my experience, 9 out of 10 times my opponent would give me his information parsed in his own language which sometimes convey information that isn't quite same as per rules. If I need details of his army, I ask for documentations, rather than his rundown.

TLDR: it is obligation of the opposing player to be able to furnish relevant information/documentation upon request, however, in no way is the opposing player REQUIRED to give a full comprehensive rundown of their army as a prerequisite for conducting a "legal" (i.e. 'not-cheating') game. This is neither unspoken rule in tournaments or a moral obligation/contract of attending such tournaments.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/19 22:05:13


Post by: yukishiro1


The competitive code of conduct for 40k tournaments goes well beyond just "don't cheat," and freely explaining your army's rules is very much both an unspoken rule and a moral obligation in the code of competitive 40k as it exists today. You may not get kicked out of a tournament for not being open to explaining your rules to your opponent, but you *will* develop a reputation as a bad competitor if you frequently take advantage of your opponent's lack of knowledge of your rules. That's just the reality of the 40k competitive culture.

You are welcome to disagree and either pay the reputational consequences for violating those community standards, or to start up your own tournaments where these standards don't prevail, but being open with your rules and making sure your opponent isn't ambushed by them is very much part of current competitive 40k etiquette, no matter how much you say it isn't. You're also welcome, of course, to argue that we should change our current code of conduct to be less stringent and to allow for more profiting from the ignorance of your opponent. But I'm not sure you're going to get very far.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/19 23:14:28


Post by: Sarouan


 skchsan wrote:
And how can one know whether their opponent knows their army or not or needs 'my army 101' to every opponent they meet?


Simple : you ask him.

Nothing prevents you from talking to your opponent during the game. Unless you believe that doing so completely exposes your master plan or something. But I really doubt that's the case in all situations.



This is precisely why we are arguing that it is the responsibility of the player that doesn't know to ask the specific, relevant questions, instead expecting the other player to give a full run down of all the key points and nuances of their army unsolicited because that's 'sportmanship' and your moral obligation to fellow hobbyists.


There's not much to argue, actually. When in doubt, just ask. It never hurts. I can understand some may be shy or aren't especially talkative, but it's better than having a bad taste in your mouth because of a ruined game.

And no, the responsability isn't solely on the other player. It's also on the one knowing the rules themselves. Sure, sometimes it's hard to tell if the other player really doesn't know - but other times, you can see it clearly. Especially when you meet a lot of different players with different levels. And I wonder if you know you already had those moments during your own games. Maybe then you simply chose not to say anything anyway, knowing you would win an easy advantage by doing so. And maybe you're trying to justify your behaviour here.

Whatever is the reality, it's never an excuse, though. It's a deliberate choice. And those who made it know very well what they did.



There is no moral obligations to make sure my opponent is on same footing as me. In tournament settings, everyone is expected to come prepared to a certain degree.


Of course there is no moral obligation. Even being polite to your opponent isn't one as well. Morality varies depending on your beliefs and education.

Simply put, if you act like a dick, you'll be treated like a dick. That's all.



Now, I'm not claiming this is THE ONLY questions you should be asking/answering, but acceptable kinds of questions would be specific, relevant, and would look like somewhere in the lines of:
"which one of your units are CORE?"
"any non-troop units ObSec?"
"what kind of deep strike options do your units have?"
"do you have any faction specific interrupting stratagems or abilities that I need to take into consideration during the game".
"can I see your codex/print outs on your stratagems so I can familiarize them myself?"


If you're a good player at the game, you know perfectly when these questions are especially important during the game, given the situation, deployment and how the turns are doing. Hell, you can even see when your opponent is making mistakes, and with experience you can suspect when someone does it because he was mystified by your tactical genius or simply forgot a rule (against me, it's most of the time about forgetting a rule ).

So it's not such a "hard science" at all. You're nitpicking on purpose here, trying to make it look like it's really difficult in all situations while it's not the case at all.

In the end, the real question you should ask yourself is "do I really want to tell my opponent if he made a honest mistake and miss an easy win ?" If your answer is "no", then there is no reason to go any further. You know exactly what you want to do and you'll face the consequences. Anything else is just mere justifications for your behaviour.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/19 23:29:55


Post by: ArbitorIan


I feel like this should be a general point about 'tournament discussion' but it's probably worth bringing up here but:

The majority of players in any given tournament are there primarily for the social event, not to compete at 'serious 40k'. Tournaments are primarily gamer meets, the competition is an excuse.

So, even in a tournament setting, I'd err on the side of sportsmanship, allowing takebacks, etc. Why? Because I don't really care about where I'm gonna place - that's just not the point for most people there! I'm there for fun games against new people.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 01:08:57


Post by: Genoside07


Yeah, that's my feelings exactly. "Gotcha Moments" is not cheating, but they are usually from a chain of events planned by an expert of the game, whether Warmachine, MTG, or 40k. One reason I dropped
Warmachine was the harsh learning curve for a new player/someone that doesn't play very often and the senior players drooling waiting to "curb stomp" you if you didn't realize what they were setting up and stopped the monster combo before it hit you with full force.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 02:45:22


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah, different games have very different cultures when it comes to competition. 40k, for whatever reason, has a competitive culture that leans very far towards the "don't take advantage of people, especially not newer or less well informed players" side of things; some other games have cultures that strike a different balance. WHFB was a bit different in my memory, people were less forgiving and more willing to take advantage, both of other players and of abusive mechanics, which is perhaps not coincidentally part of the reason it was so much less successful as a game, to the point where they eventually just pulled the plug.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 10:24:03


Post by: Slipspace


Sarouan wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
And how can one know whether their opponent knows their army or not or needs 'my army 101' to every opponent they meet?


Simple : you ask him.

Nothing prevents you from talking to your opponent during the game. Unless you believe that doing so completely exposes your master plan or something. But I really doubt that's the case in all situations.


That's fine, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But, how far do you go? Especially in a tournament setting where time is often tight there's a limit to how much explanation you can give. A basic overview of your army and its rules are fine (things like Chapter tactics, if a unit has Deep Strike on its datasheet, etc) but I think beyond that it's really down to your opponent to ask the right questions. A lot of the time the strats you'll be concerned about are common things like fight/shoot twice or extending Heroic Intervention or consolidation ranges so even without knowing specific names of strats it's possible for opponents to at least be aware of the kind of possibilities you have open to you.

Warning your opponent about strats or special rules you could use seems to go a little too far towards playing the game for them. If they ask, tell them, but if not it's not up to me to remind them. Maybe they already know and my constant interruptions just serve to annoy them, maybe they are planning something completely different to what I think so my interjection is irrelevant. None of this applies when you're facing a newer player but even that is a judgement call. I've had new players get annoyed after a gotcha moment and some who would vastly prefer to be caught out by them to help them learn the game better. There's no hard and fast right answer so communication is absolutely key.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 12:31:55


Post by: Sarouan


Slipspace wrote:


That's fine, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But, how far do you go?


There's no general case here, it all depends of the situation. It's obvious you don't act the same when time is limited to play or when it's not a factor.

Basically, it all ends up about being a "gotcha" moment or not. And that's the responsibility of the player who knows the rules. If there is something the opponent is doing that is obviously wrong and most likely happening because he's not aware of a rule, there's no harm to ask him at that moment.

So it's all about how you're feeling about it : would you feel "right" if you won just because of that or not ? Or do you want to have a victory that you earned fairly ?

Like said before, there's no moral obligation enforcing you to do so except your own moral code. Thing is, other people will evaluate you on your actions with their own moral code according to your behaviour.

It's really about how to act in gaming society. In some areas, "gotcha" moments are accepted. In others, they're not. It's also a culture issue. For example, if I play in a republican area with high competivity point of view in life (like the strong eat the weaks to get stronger), I expect player groups here will have a more tolerant view about "gotcha" moments and will blame entirely the other player for not knowing. Because that's how they see the whole world and to them, there is nothing wrong in that. In Rome do as the Romans : it's a bit that as well.

Still, to me, I can't help but see that as being a dick to the other player. But in some areas, I totally do understand it's not especially seen as a problem in itself (if the other feels offended, he can always defend himself like a true man or something like that). Or they just believe people learn things better the hard way.

But it's always a deliberate choice from the part of the player who knows.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 14:33:52


Post by: MinMax


Sarouan wrote:
So it's all about how you're feeling about it : would you feel "right" if you won just because of that or not ? Or do you want to have a victory that you earned fairly ?
As an opponent, I would rather lose a game in which I made a critical error and got caught out. Next time, I'll know better. I wouldn't feel "right" if I only won because my opponent warned me that I was making a mistake, and I wouldn't feel as if I had earned it fairly.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 16:14:34


Post by: tneva82


If you made mistake fine. If it was because gw introduced yet another combo requiring 3 books none related to your army?

That ain't skill.

Do you want to win because you are better? Or just want to win even if it means admitting you suck as a player? If you feel need to hide paywall info to bolster your winning chances it just means you suck in game tactics


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 17:05:36


Post by: skchsan


Yes, but that's still not a justification for mandating someone with the books to teach those without, or else get called names and labelled as "that guy". 40k tourney scene is not where one practices noblesse oblige.

Imagine if you and your friend went to McDonalds. You order a sandwich a la carte, your friend orders a meal with fries and a drink. You ask him to share his drink and his fries, and your friend says no because he doesn't want to share. Is your friend a bad person for not sharing his own fries & drinks?

No. That just makes him someone who doesn't like sharing food. Like Joey. It's nice to share, but that doesn't mean you're not a nice person if you don't share. Stop making this into a binary condition, because it really isn't.

There's no reason to call someone "that guy" just because play A didn't know play B's rules, and player B didn't ask player A whether he knew the rules. The burden is on the player that doesn't know to ask for help because we're not mind readers. Stop trying to claim false labels on people who you don't even know.

40k tournaments are friendly competitions, not charity events (although some events do donate to charity). Everyone is expected to bring their A-game, and no player should be asked to pull their punches because someone didn't know the rules.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 17:20:39


Post by: yukishiro1


 skchsan wrote:
40k tourney scene is not where one practices noblesse oblige.


But it is, based on the standards we've developed over the years. We have established standards of conduct in 40k that have built up over the years, and they include avoiding taking advantage of your opponent's ignorance of your army's rules where possible. You obviously don't think they should include that - and it's your right to argue that - but most 40k tournament players don't agree, and they will evaluate you according to the prevailing standards whether you agree with them or not. You can complain about how unfair it is to be called "that guy" because you behave in the way that we have categorized as "that guy," but people aren't going to stop applying the community sportsmanship standards to you just because you don't agree with them.

Play the way you want to play, and face the consequences for doing so. If someone calls you "that guy" because of it, either modify your behavior or just accept that they feel you're a bad competitor. They have at least as much right to label you a bad sport for violating the standards of behavior they think apply to the game as you do to demand they change those standards to accommodate your desire to be able to take greater advantage of those who don't know better.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 18:24:49


Post by: skchsan


You're falsely equating one with another.

At tournaments, the organizers expect the attendees' to maintain a degree of acceptable behavior. That's a euphemism for "don't be a toxic player at our events".

By no extension of that means "in our 40k community we developed over the decades of gaming, we don't condone the act of not sharing information to people who don't own rulebooks for armies they don't own. We find that to be extremely un-sportsman like because there's a high pay wall to play the game, and it creates unfair advantage to the people who actually paid for the rulebooks. The paywall to play is prohibitive for many hobbyists, and often causes 'gotcha' moments where unknowing players get caught off guard because they didn't have access to the rule. The only way to know others' armies without costing an arm and a leg is to utilize the vast resource called internet, but this act borders piracy, and by that extension, by not teaching the unknowing player you are forcing them to commit the crime of piracy and IP infringement. Thus, we have no choice but to consider you as "that guy" and as a community we will make all attempts to discredit your victories because you didn't share your information that is exclusive to you, and to you only."


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 20:45:48


Post by: yukishiro1


Talk about false equation.

Refusing to explain your rules to your opponent is very much bad sportsmanship in the culture of competitive 40k. If you don't believe me go ahead and do a poll of tournament players, I am absolutely certain you will find a strong majority saying that you should be always be ready and willing to explain how your army's rules work to your opponent, and that refusing to do so in order to take advantage of their lack of knowledge is "that guy" behavior.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 21:18:09


Post by: skchsan


Quit moving goal posts. Purposely refusing to provide answers to explicit questions being asked is an entirely different issue.

I'm talking about this incessant claim that there's an unspoken rule in tournaments that players are REQUIRED TO confirm with the opponent that they have comprehensive knowledge of your army, and if they don't you must provide them with the in's and out's of your army because 'that's the right thing to do.'

That's literally not a thing - not in 40k tourney or any other type of tourneys. People chat with each other pregame because they want to chat and get a greater understanding of each others army, not because they're forced to due to this unspoken rule you're referring to.

What you are saying is "the common unspoken law of tournament mandates you ask me the question before we play. If you don't, your victory shall not be an honorable one, and i will get everyone to see that you didn't ask the question so that they never play with you."

If your opponent fails to communicate they don't know, then it's not your fault for not knowing whether your opponent knew or not. It's not on you to tell your opponent "If you do this, then I can do that and it'll insta-wipe you, so watch out for that 'GOTCHA!' moment! Love you!" By constantly telling your opponent what they can and cannot do, and should and should not do, at best it's coercion, and at worst manipulation. You are required to answer and provide the relevant information being requested for them to base their decision on. You are in the wrong to direct & manipulate people with the fear of being caught by "gotcha!"s.

Show me any tournament guideline that states "Your sportsmanship/conduct score will be deducted if you don't make sure your opponent has full, comprehensive knowledge of your army."


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 22:06:43


Post by: yukishiro1


 skchsan wrote:
Quit moving goal posts.

...

Show me any tournament guideline that states "Your sportsmanship/conduct score will be deducted if you don't make sure your opponent has full, comprehensive knowledge of your army."


Wow. Where's that Nathan Fillion gif when you need it?

You stated above that you feel it's acceptable to refuse to explain your army's rules to your opponent if they don't ask questions you consider sufficiently specific. I am telling you clearly: that attitude is not in keeping with 40k's competitive code of conduct as most of us understand it. You will absolutely develop a reputation as a bad competitor if you do that.

You don't have to ask if your opponent understands you army; nobody said you did. But it makes a lot of sense to do so, because it's the easiest way to make sure you're not going to be profiting from their ignorance, which is what you want to avoid and what the competitive 40k community considers bad form.

You're really trying too hard here to come up with a justification for profiting from another player's ignorance of your army's rules. Just don't take advantage of other players' ignorance of your army's rules, it's really that simple. The easiest way not to do that is to make sure they understand by actually asking them, but there are other ways too if for whatever reason just asking them a simple question really is not something you're willing to do.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 22:23:14


Post by: skchsan


No, my issue is this discussion vilifying people by generalizing the circumstances and citing nonexistent unspoken law/code of conduct.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/20 23:31:31


Post by: yukishiro1


I'm sorry you feel vilified.

I'm just glad we could clear up that refusing to answer your opponent's questions about your rules because you consider them insufficiently specific is not acceptable tournament behavior.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 08:57:19


Post by: Wunzlez


 alextroy wrote:


It's not like anyone ran mono-Slaanesh before 9th Edition


Yep, no one would have ever been so unfortunate as to sell their mono-slaanesh daemons before 9th hit because of money reasons.

Spoiler:






Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 11:11:07


Post by: Slipspace


yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm sorry you feel vilified.

I'm just glad we could clear up that refusing to answer your opponent's questions about your rules because you consider them insufficiently specific is not acceptable tournament behavior.


I've also never heard of this unwritten rule you keep going on about. I think the disagreement here is over how specific a question has to be. Personally, I agree with skchsan that you should answer questions when asked, but the degree of specificity is something the other player needs to decide on, not me. You also potentially leave yourself open to being accused of unsportsmanlike conduct if you genuinely forget a certain rule or strat at the time you're asked or you misinterpret your opponent's question somehow.

Fundamentally this comes down to the fact you're playing in a tournament and a certain level of knowledge of the game is expected. Furthermore, ignorance of certain aspects of the game should never be blamed on anyone except yourself. If you ask "can this unit Deep Strike?" and your opponent says no when they can, that's unsportsmanlike for sure. But if they say no but the unit has some other deployment or redeployment rule that isn't Deep Strike (Green Tide, for example) you're getting into grey areas that are open for interpretation.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 12:46:56


Post by: Rik Lightstar


Slipspace wrote:


Fundamentally this comes down to the fact you're playing in a tournament and a certain level of knowledge of the game is expected. Furthermore, ignorance of certain aspects of the game should never be blamed on anyone except yourself. If you ask "can this unit Deep Strike?" and your opponent says no when they can, that's unsportsmanlike for sure. But if they say no but the unit has some other deployment or redeployment rule that isn't Deep Strike (Green Tide, for example) you're getting into grey areas that are open for interpretation.


I can think of no better example of a "GOTCHA!" moment for a lot of players including experienced ones who are used to short-handing back to old universal special rule names than the following:

Player A - Can your unit Deep Strike?

Player B - No, that unit cannot Deep Strike


Time passes........

Player B - My unit shall now deploy in a non-standard fashion, but as you didn't use the name of the rule on the data-sheet and instead used a well known and common "catch all" term for it I haven't in fact lied to you! See how I bamboozled you with my superior tactical acumen, I will now proceed to wave my hecking huge nerd-wang around while proclaiming how great I am!

Player A - Uh-Huh, bit of a dick-move I'd say, I'm gonna get a drink as soon as I've packed my models, it's a far better use of my time.


Player A decides the tournament scene isn't as much fun as it's cracked up to be.

Player B celebrates getting their full tournament points again and ensures it's reflected in their oh-so-important ITC tournament rankings.

Sounds fun to me.

Rik


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 15:25:51


Post by: skchsan


yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm sorry you feel vilified.

I'm just glad we could clear up that refusing to answer your opponent's questions about your rules because you consider them insufficiently specific is not acceptable tournament behavior.
It’s intriguing that you thought all this time that this was about defending my actions/me being called ‘That Guy’, which in hindsight explains all the hostility in your posts. Seems like you’re out for personal vendetta rather than a discussion. Let’s keep this civil.

Stop claiming that you are mandated/required to provide your opponent with a full rundown of your army as required per this unspoken law of tournament/code of conduct as if it’s some sort of RIGHT as to be demanded for by the person who doesn’t own other armies’ codex. It’s your lack of preparation that caused this “ignorance”. Stop blaming others for your ignorance. If you don't know, just ask politely - don't make demands since that's the "right thing to do."

Sharing information is a gesture of common courtesy, not a regulated mandate. We don’t do it because we’re required to because there’s a paywall and we must be considerate to those who have not, otherwise you’ve cheated your opponent because you took advantage of their ignorance, etc. We do it because it’s nice to be polite and respecting. It's also fun to chat and learn new things, like army you've never faced before.

Let’s put it this way – if you are weaponizing your own ignorance to force other people to do things for you (i.e. 'give me your army's A-to-Z so I don't get caught off guard by a possible gotcha moment you can set up. If I get caught in a gotcha moment, that's because you didn't disclose the necessary information" which is in a way asking "tell me your offensive plans so I can avoid being caught in them"), then the problem is you, not the opponent. If you come out and start blaming other player for your tactical mistake – “you didn’t tell me you could do that! I would’ve done something totally else if I knew that! That’s something you should’ve told me even if I didn’t ask about it! You’re such a ‘That Guy’”, that attitude is going to get you nowhere. You can’t force your opponent to accept your takesies backsies because he wasn’t aware that you weren’t aware. Likely, this person is more likely to be called ‘That Guy’ that just blames other people for his mistakes, rather than being revered as the martyr who sacrificed his win to expose the opponent of his “wrong doings”.

I’m sure as hell not going to feel like sharing information if someone showed up at the table with this sort of attitude.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 16:57:03


Post by: yukishiro1


 skchsan wrote:
Seems like you’re out for personal vendetta rather than a discussion. Let’s keep this civil.

Stop claiming that you are mandated/required to provide your opponent with a full rundown of your army as required per this unspoken law of tournament/code of conduct as if it’s some sort of RIGHT as to be demanded for by the person who doesn’t own other armies’ codex. It’s your lack of preparation that caused this “ignorance”. Stop blaming others for your ignorance. If you don't know, just ask politely - don't make demands since that's the "right thing to do."


That's about the third time you've produced an amazingly ironic and hypocritical post without apparently realizing it. I think this discussion has run its useful life, you're just straw-manning at this point about people allegedly demanding to be told their opponent's tactical plans when we all know - yourself included - that that's an utterly dishonest distortion of what anyone has said. It's not worth continuing a discussion with someone who can't help debating so dishonestly.

If you refuse to answer questions about your army's rules because you don't think they're specific enough, you're going to be treated like a bad competitor. If you take advantage of your opponent's lack of knowledge of your rules by deliberately not telling them what your army can do and then springing your rules upon them in the full knowledge that they weren't aware of it, you're going to be treated like a bad competitor. If you want to do those things so badly anyway that you're willing to pay the reputational price, go ahead and do it; nobody can stop you and it's your reputation to ruin. If you're not doing those things, you have nothing to worry about and no reason to defend that behavior. I don't think further discussion is going to be useful.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm sorry you feel vilified.

I'm just glad we could clear up that refusing to answer your opponent's questions about your rules because you consider them insufficiently specific is not acceptable tournament behavior.


I've also never heard of this unwritten rule you keep going on about. I think the disagreement here is over how specific a question has to be. Personally, I agree with skchsan that you should answer questions when asked, but the degree of specificity is something the other player needs to decide on, not me. You also potentially leave yourself open to being accused of unsportsmanlike conduct if you genuinely forget a certain rule or strat at the time you're asked or you misinterpret your opponent's question somehow.

Fundamentally this comes down to the fact you're playing in a tournament and a certain level of knowledge of the game is expected. Furthermore, ignorance of certain aspects of the game should never be blamed on anyone except yourself. If you ask "can this unit Deep Strike?" and your opponent says no when they can, that's unsportsmanlike for sure. But if they say no but the unit has some other deployment or redeployment rule that isn't Deep Strike (Green Tide, for example) you're getting into grey areas that are open for interpretation.


If you ask whether they can deep strike and they say no when the answer is yes, that's straight-up cheating, not unsportsmanlike conduct, and it would likely get the player kicked out of the tournament or at the very least yellow carded. Unsportsmanlike conduct is when you ask "does that unit have an invuln" and they say "no" and then you target it and they say "ok I'm spending 1CP to give it a 4+ invuln, you asked if it had an invuln, not whether I could give it one with a strat!"

Any time you answer your opponent's question in a less than complete manner in order to try to then spring a trap on them, that's unsportsmanlike conduct by definition. It isn't up to your opponent to find the magic words to get you to reveal your rules. If they're asking you about invulns on a unit, you have to tell them about any way that unit can get an invuln, not just whether it has one right now. If they're asking you about deep strike, you have to tell them about any other ways you have to redeploy the unit in a similar manner to deep strike, you don't get to say "no" then use the strat that puts them back into reserves to deep strike the next turn.

That anyone could seriously think it was ok to deceive the opponent that way is depressing to me. If you legitimately forget to tell your opponent something that's different, but then it's on you to make it right by not exploiting the false impression you unwittingly gave them. Any time your opponent asks you a question you have a responsibility to answer that question as fully and thoroughly as you can, and you certainly have a responsibility not to answer the question in an overly narrow way with the specific intent to deceive through a technically correct but actually incomplete answer.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 17:23:07


Post by: skchsan


Communication is a privilege, not a right. (not to mention 'you' is used as a collective noun and not direct at you specifically). If you failed to communicate that you need explanation, then don't blame the other person for the failure to not answer questions that weren't asked of them. By assuming that the other person doesn't know is asserting that the other person is ignorant, which by its connotation is looking down on them for their lack of knowledge.

You have a tendency of getting heated when people don't agree with you and dropping the conversation with line like "I'm done talking. You can do whatever you want. I'll give you the freedom to think however you like. I'll let you have the last words."

You're not letting anyone do anything nor are you the person who we need permission from to speak or think - everyone's free to contribute to the discussion. If you disagree with something, then learn to just agree to disagree instead of attacking the posters for having opinions that are different than yours.




Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 17:26:40


Post by: JNAProductions


 skchsan wrote:
Communication is a privilege, not a right. (not to mention 'you' is used as a collective noun and not direct at you specifically). If you failed to communicate that you need explanation, then don't blame the other person for the failure to not answer questions that weren't asked of them. By assuming that the other person doesn't know is same thing as looking down on them.

You have a tendency of getting heated when people don't agree with you and dropping the conversation with line like "I'm done talking. You can do whatever you want. I'll give you the freedom to think however you like. I'll let you have the last words."

You're not letting anyone do anything nor are you the person who we need permission from to speak or think - everyone's free to contribute to the discussion. If you disagree with something, then learn to just agree to disagree instead of attacking the posters for having opinions that are different than yours.


That is a very strange mindset. The bolded bit. Just... Can you explain further?

And I don't consider it condescending in the slightest to ask "Hey, how much do you know about my army?" It's far more courteous than condescending.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 17:33:12


Post by: skchsan


 JNAProductions wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Communication is a privilege, not a right. (not to mention 'you' is used as a collective noun and not direct at you specifically). If you failed to communicate that you need explanation, then don't blame the other person for the failure to not answer questions that weren't asked of them. By assuming that the other person doesn't know is same thing as looking down on them.

You have a tendency of getting heated when people don't agree with you and dropping the conversation with line like "I'm done talking. You can do whatever you want. I'll give you the freedom to think however you like. I'll let you have the last words."

You're not letting anyone do anything nor are you the person who we need permission from to speak or think - everyone's free to contribute to the discussion. If you disagree with something, then learn to just agree to disagree instead of attacking the posters for having opinions that are different than yours.


That is a very strange mindset. The bolded bit. Just... Can you explain further?

And I don't consider it condescending in the slightest to ask "Hey, how much do you know about my army?" It's far more courteous than condescending.
For this discussion, it would mean "Your opponent doesn't owe you a single thing as of right, so don't be an ass and demand things from your opponent with statements like "oh but that's the unwritten code of conduct. if you don't comply, then I'll call you 'That Guy', and instead ask nicely. Don't call your opponent 'That Guy' because you got had from something that you didn't know, and didn't ask, since your opponent is not a mind reader, so they don't know what you know and don't know."



Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 17:56:57


Post by: yukishiro1


 skchsan wrote:
Communication is a privilege, not a right. (not to mention 'you' is used as a collective noun and not direct at you specifically). If you failed to communicate that you need explanation, then don't blame the other person for the failure to not answer questions that weren't asked of them. By assuming that the other person doesn't know is asserting that the other person is ignorant, which by its connotation is looking down on them for their lack of knowledge.

You have a tendency of getting heated when people don't agree with you and dropping the conversation with line like "I'm done talking. You can do whatever you want. I'll give you the freedom to think however you like. I'll let you have the last words."

You're not letting anyone do anything nor are you the person who we need permission from to speak or think - everyone's free to contribute to the discussion. If you disagree with something, then learn to just agree to disagree instead of attacking the posters for having opinions that are different than yours.




I wasn't for a moment suggesting you aren't free to continue to discuss the issue with anyone else, and I don't think my comment can honestly be read that way; I think you are straw manning again, which is an illustration of exactly what I was saying re: the futility of further discussion. I just meant that our particular discussion doesn't seem to be useful, we're just going in circles here and when we get to the point where you can't help straw-manning what the other person is saying in patently silly ways like equating wanting wanting to know how your opponent's army's rule work to wanting to be clued in to their tactical plan, it's a good clue there's no productive conversation to be had any more.

We've laid out our points of view. You think it's ok to take advantage of someone's ignorance of your rules because it's their responsibility not to be taken advantage of, and you also think it's ok to refuse to answer their questions about your rules if you deem them insufficiently specific. I think that's poor sportsmanship, and I think most 40k players take my point of view on it; you presumably think most players take your point of view. There's not much more to talk about. One of us is right about what most people think, the other isn't, and we presumably both think it's the other guy who's wrong.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 18:01:59


Post by: JNAProductions


Skchsan, what would you do if you were facing an experienced player, and they told you "I've never faced your army before-what does it do?"


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 18:04:35


Post by: skchsan


@yukishiro1 I think it's great that you understand that you're not the master of anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Skchsan, what would you do if you were facing an experienced player, and they told you "I've never faced your army before-what does it do?"
Experienced or not, I'd ask them if they want to see my rulebook/FAQ's and point them to the relevant sections. Really, all you need a good 5 minutes going thru the stratagems and the army rules section. I prepare my lists with battlescribe with stats showing. I point to them the weird rules interactions that is prevalent for my army for 'general' grey areas. I prefer to show them how to do their homework rather than doing their homework FOR them.

If they have any special needs (i.e. dyslexic), then I would do my best to accommodate their needs.

IMO, written words > my interpretation via spoken words. This way, I could make sure that I didn't forget to tell them anything and get blamed for it later.

If they still have questions, then we'd hash it out prior to game so it doesn't cause the kind of clashes that would net you the title of "that guy" from a salty player.

Now, I would argue that the "correct" way this should've been handled is that the 'experienced player' in your example should have led with something in the lines of "hey, do you mind if I read your rulebook? I never played against your faction so I have no idea what I need to kill first " I don't think one's ignorance is something that should be touted and swung around like a bat, demanding stuff to be handed to you on a silver platter.

It's not a crime to be ignorant, but refusing to learn is (i.e. 'nah, I'm too lazy to read. Just tell me what I need to do to not get caught in your gotcha set up'). If I were to give you a comprehensive list of 'gotcha' moments that could land me that title that you need to be wary of, and you've successfully avoided all the gotcha moments by following my warnings, have you actually learned anything? or did you just navigate through the game following the directions? I find this to be incredibly insulting and demeaning to both me and my opponent. It's like saying "you're not intelligent enough to analyze the situation to keep your army out of harms way. so let me tell you exactly what you should and should not do against my army"


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 18:09:21


Post by: Genoside07


A lot of going back and forth on the code of conduct. That's why many tournaments added sportsmanship rules.
The real question is if new players were constantly hit with "gotcha moments" do you think they would continue with the game?
Is this style of play adding to the game or will it take players away from the game?

I realize some people think that I need to know every detail about my opponent's army but I don't know many people that have that amount of free time
to study every little trick. But If I don't use a certain rule normally and I ask an opponent about it, like where to find it in the book and he is helpful
I would have no problem. If they act shifty I think they are trying to pull something or giving their own interpretation of the rules.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 18:45:37


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


While we are creating rules of conduct that, if broken, result in the player being labeled and attacked, can we create a bathing rule? How about a no strong odors rule? No vaping?

I've had all three, at different events, and obviously pre-COVID, but still. I would sooner attend a MTG event for fresh air than a 40k event.

I am sick of unwashed, sullied, and trashy human beings that can't figure out Deodorant, let alone special rules. Then there is Captain cheesy fingers that always wants to touch models.

3 rules I would create:

1. All players must be washed and in relatively clean clothes prior to their match.

2. No touching of your opponent's models, books, or things, without express permission.

3. Vaping is disgusting and stupid, and you should not "blow fat dank clouds" while at the event.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 19:19:40


Post by: yukishiro1


Vaping indoors at public events should absolutely not be allowed and I would be really surprised if an event allowed it.

Not touching your opponent's models without permission is certainly part of the basic 40k code of conduct.

Personal hygiene is a difficult subject that is pretty much impossible to legislate for because it's so subjective, so that makes it really hard to do anything about.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 19:27:45


Post by: Genoside07


yukishiro1 wrote:
1. All players must be washed and in relatively clean clothes prior to their match.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Personal hygiene is a difficult subject that is pretty much impossible to legislate for because it's so subjective, so that makes it really hard to do anything about it.


Yeah, I have seen players show up clean normal people but only had enough money for entry, so the rest of the weekend they act like homeless people, sleeping on the floor and begging people for food.
Then by Sunday, you want to use the six feet rule around them before the pandemic.

But we are here to discuss "Gotcha" players. Because one thing I have always seen is that people act differently in friendly basement games and a tournament with prizes.



Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 19:51:48


Post by: yukishiro1


You got those quotes backwards (not that it really matters, just FWIW).


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 21:41:01


Post by: MinMax


 skchsan wrote:
It's not a crime to be ignorant, but refusing to learn is (i.e. 'nah, I'm too lazy to read. Just tell me what I need to do to not get caught in your gotcha set up'). If I were to give you a comprehensive list of 'gotcha' moments that could land me that title that you need to be wary of, and you've successfully avoided all the gotcha moments by following my warnings, have you actually learned anything? or did you just navigate through the game following the directions? I find this to be incredibly insulting and demeaning to both me and my opponent. It's like saying "you're not intelligent enough to analyze the situation to keep your army out of harms way. so let me tell you exactly what you should and should not do against my army"

Hear, hear.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 23:09:57


Post by: JNAProductions


 MinMax wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It's not a crime to be ignorant, but refusing to learn is (i.e. 'nah, I'm too lazy to read. Just tell me what I need to do to not get caught in your gotcha set up'). If I were to give you a comprehensive list of 'gotcha' moments that could land me that title that you need to be wary of, and you've successfully avoided all the gotcha moments by following my warnings, have you actually learned anything? or did you just navigate through the game following the directions? I find this to be incredibly insulting and demeaning to both me and my opponent. It's like saying "you're not intelligent enough to analyze the situation to keep your army out of harms way. so let me tell you exactly what you should and should not do against my army"

Hear, hear.
That presumes that the "Gotchas" are complicated and nuanced.

With something like, say, Syndonian Dragoons, it used to be you could hit on a 2+ with each 4+ on die generating two extra hits. That's a lot more dangerous than just stats would indicate-but it's not hard to figure out. It literally just requires reading their Taser rules and the right stratagem.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/21 23:25:08


Post by: yukishiro1


It's just a bit silly all around. Tactics and knowledge of rules are totally different things. Nobody's asking you to explain your tactical plan, but explaining your rules is not explaining your tactical plan. To suggest it is is kinda insulting to everyone's intelligence. If you've really come up with something so galaxy brain that nobody else has thought of it...telling your opponent your rules in detail won't give away your plan, because it's so galaxy brain that normal people wouldn't think of it. If your plan is so obvious that telling your opponent your rules reveals what it is...your plan isn't so galaxy brain in the first place. You can't really have it both ways.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/22 09:44:03


Post by: Slipspace


yukishiro1 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm sorry you feel vilified.

I'm just glad we could clear up that refusing to answer your opponent's questions about your rules because you consider them insufficiently specific is not acceptable tournament behavior.


I've also never heard of this unwritten rule you keep going on about. I think the disagreement here is over how specific a question has to be. Personally, I agree with skchsan that you should answer questions when asked, but the degree of specificity is something the other player needs to decide on, not me. You also potentially leave yourself open to being accused of unsportsmanlike conduct if you genuinely forget a certain rule or strat at the time you're asked or you misinterpret your opponent's question somehow.

Fundamentally this comes down to the fact you're playing in a tournament and a certain level of knowledge of the game is expected. Furthermore, ignorance of certain aspects of the game should never be blamed on anyone except yourself. If you ask "can this unit Deep Strike?" and your opponent says no when they can, that's unsportsmanlike for sure. But if they say no but the unit has some other deployment or redeployment rule that isn't Deep Strike (Green Tide, for example) you're getting into grey areas that are open for interpretation.


If you ask whether they can deep strike and they say no when the answer is yes, that's straight-up cheating, not unsportsmanlike conduct, and it would likely get the player kicked out of the tournament or at the very least yellow carded. Unsportsmanlike conduct is when you ask "does that unit have an invuln" and they say "no" and then you target it and they say "ok I'm spending 1CP to give it a 4+ invuln, you asked if it had an invuln, not whether I could give it one with a strat!"


I don't think you're having the same debate other people are. You're not even reading what you're quoting since I specifically say if you are asked if a unit can Deep Strike and you say no when the answer is yes that's unsportsmanlike. I'd agree with you and call it cheating. I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

yukishiro1 wrote:


Any time you answer your opponent's question in a less than complete manner in order to try to then spring a trap on them, that's unsportsmanlike conduct by definition. It isn't up to your opponent to find the magic words to get you to reveal your rules. If they're asking you about invulns on a unit, you have to tell them about any way that unit can get an invuln, not just whether it has one right now. If they're asking you about deep strike, you have to tell them about any other ways you have to redeploy the unit in a similar manner to deep strike, you don't get to say "no" then use the strat that puts them back into reserves to deep strike the next turn.


It's not about finding "the magic words", it's about what's reasonable for me to do in a tournament environment where time is a factor. Nothing here applies to a friendly game down at the store, and it definitely doesn't apply to games against new players just figuring out how the basics work. But tournaments have time limits and there's an assumed level of knowledge for all participants. I'm also not interested in getting into an argument over semantics with my opponent and it seems weird to put the onus on me to figure out what is answering in a "complete manner". If they ask if I can Deep Strike, but actually want to know about any and all redeploy strats you seem to be saying the onus is on me to discern their meaning if they're unclear and I'm the one in the wrong for them not being specific enough. Green Tide (or whatever the Ork strat is called that allows you to return a unit to full strength and bring it on from a board edge) is the example I chose precisely because it's ambiguous in this context. If you ask me if a unit can Deep Strike I'd mention Da Jump but I may forget about Green Tide, or assume you're not talking about the more restrictive deployment rules for that strat, depending on how you phrase the question and other context. Similarly, if you ask something like "what defensive strats and abilities does that unit have" I may say just Transhuman or -1 to wound but then you might get annoyed when I resurrect a couple of guys using a strat next turn because you think that's a defensive strat whereas I don't.

I think both players need to accept with the way 40k is designed it's very difficult to go over all of these situations either prior to the game or in the middle of the game. All information in rulebooks is open information and should be provided when asked for. However, constantly interrupting the game to ask endless questions about strats and rules for your opponents army is probably taking it too far. Getting annoyed with your opponent because your ambiguous question wasn't answered to your satisfaction is not entirely your opponents fault. It may not even be their fault at all depending how the question was asked.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/04/22 13:37:58


Post by: skchsan


 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinMax wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It's not a crime to be ignorant, but refusing to learn is (i.e. 'nah, I'm too lazy to read. Just tell me what I need to do to not get caught in your gotcha set up'). If I were to give you a comprehensive list of 'gotcha' moments that could land me that title that you need to be wary of, and you've successfully avoided all the gotcha moments by following my warnings, have you actually learned anything? or did you just navigate through the game following the directions? I find this to be incredibly insulting and demeaning to both me and my opponent. It's like saying "you're not intelligent enough to analyze the situation to keep your army out of harms way. so let me tell you exactly what you should and should not do against my army"

Hear, hear.
That presumes that the "Gotchas" are complicated and nuanced.

With something like, say, Syndonian Dragoons, it used to be you could hit on a 2+ with each 4+ on die generating two extra hits. That's a lot more dangerous than just stats would indicate-but it's not hard to figure out. It literally just requires reading their Taser rules and the right stratagem.
Rather, I think the concept/definition of 'gotcha's' got blown way out of proportion past the 1st page of this post.

I thought your summary was on point:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So, two statements, to agree or disagree with:

1) You are not required to let your opponent know if they make a bad move, or forget a rule of yours until it’s too late. It may be nice to, but it ain’t cheating not to.

2) Lying to your opponent about your army is cheating. Saying something like “You have no penalties to hit my Venom,” in their movement phase so they move something to target it, and then using their -1 to be hit rule in shooting isn’t just rude, it’s cheating.
Just as you've surmised, I don't think gotcha moments are complicated nor nuanced at all. They are all very much straight forward that can be resolved within reasonable time expenditure (because interwebz). I don't think it's fair to demand things from your opponent with reasons like "nobody can afford all the books," "I don't have time to learn EVERY ARMY in the game," or because "that's sportsmanship".

Obviously, the second case is without a doubt an example of someone cheating. Despite, somewhere along the lines of this discussion, the term 'gotcha' became to be used as a catch-all for all 'feels bad' moments - I don't agree with that. I think this was also the reason why the discussion escalated the way it did - one party was thinking the other was defending these gamey/cheating moments as if these were simply part of the game, and the other side was arguing under the assumption that everyone had already agreed that this is straight up cheating and was building their arguments upon that agreement as a given.

I don't think the term should be used as a catch-all phrase to include instances such as pre-nerf 8th edition's berzerkers-in-plasma-transport shenanigans, the turn 1 "deep strike" via by 'da jump' (before it was fully clarified), etc. - plays that rely on threading multiple needles and RAW oddities to claim its legitimacy, because these are simply plays that game the rules. At that point, you're not playing the game using the rules, but using the rules to "play" the game. When you do this, you're certainly being TFG. But to call someone TFG because you didn't know and your opponent didn't know that you didn't know is unfair.

To me, gotcha moments are when you make a bad move (whether its based on presumed knowledge that happens to be false, based on lack of information outright, or simple mistake/oversight), and consequently suffer terrible losses due to your opponent capitalizing on that particular mistake (just as you summarized handily). Some examples might be, you just charged your ace melee unit near unit with 'fight last' ability; you've left a gap in your screen allowing a unit with move-twice + improved advance + charge after advance rule to get inside your formation; not knowing about 8th ed BA smash captains with strat + strat + relic + WL trait wombo combo, etc. But as many of us pointed out, I don't believe it's on the opponent to prevent you from making a fatal mistake. Because we're not mind readers, there's no way to tell whether that mistake was intentional, based on false information, or based on lack of information.

For what it's worth, I would further argue that gotcha moments aren't limited to when one side knows less than the other and could even include instances that could occur between two high level players where one cleverly outmaneuvers the opponent to force them to choose between making a bad move and worse move. In this instance, you're simply outplayed by your opponent, and that shouldn't be the ground for calling someone TFG. For example, you dumped your offensives on the wrong target, leaving a deathstar in your face (loss by bad target priority; pure player mistake); the brave soul who charged against the early 8th ed hellhound leafblower forcing them to fall back further and further until there was no room (loss by balls of pure steel; movement, charge & shooting phase manipulation); the one who first drafted up the smash captain in response to the plague that was castellan (loss at list building; meta counter), etc. I would also consider these gotcha's - "you thought you were being smart with that strat, but here's my counter".

So, the point is, you have to communicate - you have to help your opponent (by letting them know you need help understanding) so that they can help you (by providing relevant information).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's just a bit silly all around. Tactics and knowledge of rules are totally different things. Nobody's asking you to explain your tactical plan, but explaining your rules is not explaining your tactical plan. To suggest it is is kinda insulting to everyone's intelligence. If you've really come up with something so galaxy brain that nobody else has thought of it...telling your opponent your rules in detail won't give away your plan, because it's so galaxy brain that normal people wouldn't think of it. If your plan is so obvious that telling your opponent your rules reveals what it is...your plan isn't so galaxy brain in the first place. You can't really have it both ways.
I think it's even sillier that someone should blame another person for their own lack of knowledge. If you're a player is so mad that other people won't teach you them, why not just take the matter into your their own hand and find some free resources to learn so that you they don't get caught with your their pants down at your their next tournament?

They have to understand that it is not the opponent pulled their pants down. They came to the table with their pants down. Don't get mad if the opponent refuse to pull up their pants for them - they may not be comfortable with that, so don't assume that it is within your rights as a tournament attendee to be taught on table.

LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAST edit: "TFG" is one of the most offensive names you can call someone at events like these. It's a term that's used for segregating certain toxic members of the hobby community. Don't assume it's your right to denigrate others and call them "TFG" just because you came unprepared and the other person is being less than accommodating to your needs.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/16 00:19:21


Post by: Fhanados


Edit: Woops threadromancy. My bad!


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/16 02:19:10


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I think it depends on the amount of janky stuff you have in your army, and if you do, it would help to explain some of them.

I find that armies like Admech have a ton of rules layered on rules. Even the player himself would likely miss out on some of them. And some of these may be important because it comes with benefits as well as restrictions.

The player of an admech army would likely be happily remembering all the benefits of the ruels, but it might be easy to forget the disadvantages that also come with it.

Take Doctrina imperatives. Each imperative comes with an army wide advantage, and an army wide disadvantage. And the doctrina imparative needs to be declared in the command phase. You can't wait until you are in a key situation and then suddenly declare you have this doctrina in place for its benefit. And what about the negative effects of that doctrine, which has now been conveniently forgotten all this while? An army wide minus 3 inch movement or -1 BS or -1 WS is not a small thing. And some rules apply to the whole army, some apply only to skitari, some apply to only admech units, some apply only to core, and some are only applied in the command phase to one single unit, etc etc. Even as the admech player, you probably have problems keeping track of it all, much less the opposing player who won't know your army as well as you do. And I bet it will be easy to overlook and assume that all benefits apply to every single unit all the time.

Certain units being far more deadly than they seem also add to the "gotcha" moments as well. Like you wouldn't think that lone succubus which is such a small model would be so darn scary, but it is. It can mow through stuff all on its lonesome. Same for a few small models of Incubi or a squad of wychs. Size in this case, hides the deadly power these units actually have.

I similarly felt like I was in a "gotcha" moment when I played against Rust stalkers for the first time. I was like "hey, its just a fast attack choice right? how scary can it be?" And then that one unit of Rust Stalkers literally charged in on turn 1 and obliterated my entire left flank and that was basically game over right there.

Or say the first time a unit of 20 vanguard or 20 rangers use wrath of mars or enriched rounds and blow up my elite unit into a fine mist. I am like "a core troop unit has that kind of firepower???" But now I know how darn scary they can be, and so I give them the respect they deserve.

Or say I plonk down a Lord Of skulls and then have it blown off the board in one round of shooting from a max squad of ironstriders... Well, you learn from such moments I guess.

Some of these I guess you will learn from experience. Certainly the next time I see a unit of Rust stalkers or a squad of 20 rangers/vanguard, or ironstriders I at least know what they are capable of... And I will be doing a lot of measuring to make sure what is their threat range. It increases the time spent in a turn, but having one unit wreck an entire flank or blow up one of your key units because it is just so deadly leaves one with no choice. You have to know the capabilities of what you are facing ...


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/16 21:26:13


Post by: Hecaton


Part of the problem is that GW insists on making players pay for rules - so unless someone engages in piracy it's an unreasonable assumption that they've read every faction they might encounter in a tournament's codex. In saner games - where the rules are free - I wouldn't be as upset about players playing "gotcha!" in the sense that OP meant it.



Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/20 14:09:25


Post by: a_typical_hero


Hecaton wrote:
Part of the problem is that GW insists on making players pay for rules - so unless someone engages in piracy it's an unreasonable assumption that they've read every faction they might encounter in a tournament's codex. In saner games - where the rules are free - I wouldn't be as upset about players playing "gotcha!" in the sense that OP meant it.

GW is sending out review copies to a guy who records slowly flipping through all pages and then uploads it to Youtube. The bar for knowing the rules legally without paying money for it is set incredibly low already. Because of this, I'm morally not even a little bit concerned about using Battlescribe or Wahapedia to look up rules for armies I don't play and thus don't own the codex for.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/20 23:04:14


Post by: Hecaton


a_typical_hero wrote:
GW is sending out review copies to a guy who records slowly flipping through all pages and then uploads it to Youtube. The bar for knowing the rules legally without paying money for it is set incredibly low already. Because of this, I'm morally not even a little bit concerned about using Battlescribe or Wahapedia to look up rules for armies I don't play and thus don't own the codex for.


I'm not either, but some TOs are, and in the same vein I generally think it's sportsmanlike to be generous with rules information towards your opponent. And refusing to answer direct questions about your models' rules repeatedly should get a player thrown out.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/21 07:54:33


Post by: a_typical_hero


Absolutely agree.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/22 07:18:04


Post by: Da Boss


This discussion is quite interesting, but really re-affirms that USRs are better game design than lots of faction specific but basically similar rules with different names. It just makes processing what a unit can do much more simple if you can look at a short list of USRs which are the same as yours, and maybe a couple of faction specific, army wide rules. The way GW games do it at the moment seems to be designed in some way to encourage "gotchas" or to require a lot more explanation, which seems like a strange design choice.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/22 08:20:18


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Hecaton wrote:
Part of the problem is that GW insists on making players pay for rules - so unless someone engages in piracy it's an unreasonable assumption that they've read every faction they might encounter in a tournament's codex. In saner games - where the rules are free - I wouldn't be as upset about players playing "gotcha!" in the sense that OP meant it.



If that is true and free rules give more license for WAAC-players to gotcha-opponents, GW charging for rules would be a great thing.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/22 15:55:30


Post by: JNAProductions


Sunny Side Up wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Part of the problem is that GW insists on making players pay for rules - so unless someone engages in piracy it's an unreasonable assumption that they've read every faction they might encounter in a tournament's codex. In saner games - where the rules are free - I wouldn't be as upset about players playing "gotcha!" in the sense that OP meant it.



If that is true and free rules give more license for WAAC-players to gotcha-opponents, GW charging for rules would be a great thing.
Not what their point was, I think.

If the rules cost $50 a codex, it’s entirely unreasonable to expect you to know different codecs well. That’d make you broke real fast.
If the rules are free, you can peruse them in your free time and learn other armies without dropping to a of dough.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/22 19:36:06


Post by: Hecaton


Sunny Side Up wrote:
If that is true and free rules give more license for WAAC-players to gotcha-opponents, GW charging for rules would be a great thing.


It's not a "gotcha" if they've actually read the rules.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/22 19:53:48


Post by: LunarSol


 Da Boss wrote:
This discussion is quite interesting, but really re-affirms that USRs are better game design than lots of faction specific but basically similar rules with different names. It just makes processing what a unit can do much more simple if you can look at a short list of USRs which are the same as yours, and maybe a couple of faction specific, army wide rules. The way GW games do it at the moment seems to be designed in some way to encourage "gotchas" or to require a lot more explanation, which seems like a strange design choice.


I don't love using the term USR, simply because it generally implies a whole bunch of rule names tacked on that I have to look up in a glossary somewhere. This has always been one of the more convoluted and confusing ways to understand how something works. Consistently written special rules on the other hand, I'm very much in favor of.

Even that has some challenges however. It's just really hard to express flavor without bespoke rule names. LIke in practice, tunneling and leaping are probably both best expressed with the same generic "Nimble, Mobile, etc" style rule that says you get to ignore terrain and models when you move. Players just don't latch on to the cinematics behind that however, to the point where if you initially put it on a bunch of monkeys or something, they're likely to wonder why your mole people jump so well. I don't think there's really a perfect answer, but I am rather in favor of unique names with consistent function and maybe some tags to help with categorizing interactions.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/23 09:20:47


Post by: Slipspace


 LunarSol wrote:


I don't love using the term USR, simply because it generally implies a whole bunch of rule names tacked on that I have to look up in a glossary somewhere. This has always been one of the more convoluted and confusing ways to understand how something works. Consistently written special rules on the other hand, I'm very much in favor of.

Even that has some challenges however. It's just really hard to express flavor without bespoke rule names. LIke in practice, tunneling and leaping are probably both best expressed with the same generic "Nimble, Mobile, etc" style rule that says you get to ignore terrain and models when you move. Players just don't latch on to the cinematics behind that however, to the point where if you initially put it on a bunch of monkeys or something, they're likely to wonder why your mole people jump so well. I don't think there's really a perfect answer, but I am rather in favor of unique names with consistent function and maybe some tags to help with categorizing interactions.


There are ways around all of these problems. You can have fluff-based names attached to the rule after the USR, for example. You can also have reminder text of the rule itself if space allows on the unit's datasheet, which avoids the need to go look it up. In practice USRs should be common enough that most players would fairly quickly not need to look anything up anyway.

The fluff argument is always a weird one to me. I never heard anyone complain that Terminators, Tau Battlesuits and Flayed Ones weren't fluffy because they all had the same rule even though the background said they arrived on the battlefield in very different ways. The important thing was always that they operated in the game in a way that matched their fluff.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/28 16:57:16


Post by: Moorecox


Hecaton wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
GW is sending out review copies to a guy who records slowly flipping through all pages and then uploads it to Youtube. The bar for knowing the rules legally without paying money for it is set incredibly low already. Because of this, I'm morally not even a little bit concerned about using Battlescribe or Wahapedia to look up rules for armies I don't play and thus don't own the codex for.


I'm not either, but some TOs are, and in the same vein I generally think it's sportsmanlike to be generous with rules information towards your opponent. And refusing to answer direct questions about your models' rules repeatedly should get a player thrown out.


They both have numerous mistakes… there are plenty TOs that would insta DQ you and for good reason.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/28 18:04:20


Post by: Tawnis


I may be in the minority here, but for me, I actually like my games that way. When I play someone who has a new faction, I like that I know the broad strokes of what their deal is, but that I have to learn the specifics of their tactics and strategy from experience. You know, like an actual military commander would have to do.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/29 04:04:52


Post by: MinMax


 LunarSol wrote:
Even that has some challenges however. It's just really hard to express flavor without bespoke rule names. LIke in practice, tunneling and leaping are probably both best expressed with the same generic "Nimble, Mobile, etc" style rule that says you get to ignore terrain and models when you move. Players just don't latch on to the cinematics behind that however, to the point where if you initially put it on a bunch of monkeys or something, they're likely to wonder why your mole people jump so well. I don't think there's really a perfect answer, but I am rather in favor of unique names with consistent function and maybe some tags to help with categorizing interactions.


Here would be my presentation. Take for instance Necron Wraiths and Grey Knight Interceptors:

Personal Teleporters: Interceptors are equipped with personal backpack teleporters, allowing them to "shunt" themselves through Warpspace to another location on the battlefield. This unit has the Ethereal special rule.

Phase Shifters: Canoptek Wraiths possess a dimensional destabilisation matrix, allowing them to phase in and out of sync with the normal space-time continuum. This unit has the Ethereal special rule.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/29 07:18:00


Post by: tneva82


 LunarSol wrote:

Even that has some challenges however. It's just really hard to express flavor without bespoke rule names. LIke in practice, tunneling and leaping are probably both best expressed with the same generic "Nimble, Mobile, etc" style rule that says you get to ignore terrain and models when you move. Players just don't latch on to the cinematics behind that however, to the point where if you initially put it on a bunch of monkeys or something, they're likely to wonder why your mole people jump so well. I don't think there's really a perfect answer, but I am rather in favor of unique names with consistent function and maybe some tags to help with categorizing interactions.


Thing is the special rules in warscroll already have fluff description and the rules.

It's just that the rules are copy&pasted and sometimes with tiny irritating tiny differences you need to be scrambling to double check it's not resulting in actually different result.

You could solve it by replacing the lengthy rule part with reference to common rule.

The fluff text which is actually the flavour wouldn't differ. Just the rules text. Even rule's name doesn't have to change.

Just example from random AOS warscroll I have open.

Shield of the storm:

<fluff text>

Add 1 to save rolls for attacks that target this unit if at least half of the models in this unit(rounding down) are armed with stormstrike glaives.

Okay that's bit trickier rule but how flavour change if cursive would be replaced with something like "parry(stormstrike glaive)"? Okay this is rule even I admit might work better without generalist rule but the point still is. How is that "add 1 to save rolls..." so important for flavour? Isn't the "Shield of the storm" and the fluff text more important for it?

The actual rule shouldn't have any flavour. If the rule is about appearing to reserve via teleport you can and should put that on the <fluff text> part. Not have rule itself "at the end of movement phase the unit appears from teleport in mighty flash. Put models more than 9" from enemy models as the life force interrupts teleport beam. Unit may not move further during movement phase" for example. That's just going to make rule text silly yes?


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/29 11:03:16


Post by: kirotheavenger


I would prefer units to have a proper fluff entry that describes them and what they do, then have the actual rules card be fairly devoid of any fluff.

Universal rules with reminder text is absolutely best.
"Ethereal: this unit ignores intervening terrain when moving"
In the rulebook there can be a more detailed description of Ethereal that attempts to address any edge cases or anything.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/29 15:05:40


Post by: oni


I understand both sides on this topic, but I think the sudden outcry against 'gotcha moments' is only a symptom of a deeper issue.

The deeper issue is one of rules bloat and over complexity. It is getting harder and harder for us to know all of the rules (Core, Army construction, Detachment, Faction, Sub-faction, Warlord traits, Relics, Stratagems, Unit bespoke rules, Weapons... on and on and on it goes). We try so hard to know as much as we can, but its just gotten to be too much. So when we're caught off guard it feels bad.

Food for thought...

If you're like a lot of other gamers, you play or have played a card game or even a board game that has a card-hand mechanic. Virtually every move / play in these games is a 'gotcha moment' or at least an attempt at one. I understand that W40K is not supposed to have any manner of secrecy like a card game, but at least for me, I am not bothered by the 'gotcha moment' in W40K because I've been conditioned by these other games. I assume this holds true for a lot of W40K players.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/30 01:11:48


Post by: NH Gunsmith


I really don't believe that "gotcha moments" are cheating, but can easily leave a bad taste in your mouth towards your win if taken out of context.

In a tournament setting, it is not your job to explain all the interactions of your army to your opponent. In a tournament setting it is honestly up to you to know what to look out for in a faction outside of what you play as part of tournament preparation. Truthfully answering questions you are asked though, that is part of playing your army and you should be disgusted with yourself if you go out of your way to leave info out to achieve a victory (my personal opinion, play to win in a tournament without telling lies, so no judgement will be passed if I failed to learn about my opponent).

In casual play or tournament prep though... not telling your opponent about how things work ahead of time just feels dirty. If your list can't win without resorting to relying on your opponent's ignorance of a rules interaction... your list isn't likely to make it far in the first place.

Telling your opponent in casual play/tournament prep about how your list operates is the best way to learn how to play into counters. And not playing an uphill game in practice matches is doing yourself a disservice.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/30 15:18:34


Post by: LunarSol


Generally speaking gotcha wins have always been the sign of the "big deal in my local meta" mid table kind of players. The truth is, gotcha tricks don't really work against top players, and players that grow accustomed to them hit a ceiling pretty quick, but are also a big reason why lower tier players find tournaments miserable.

The worst part is those players tend to crush their local metas, which both creates players that feel the need to play the same way, and also limits everyone involved from actually improving. It's not strictly cheating, but it's not doing anyone any good.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/09/30 22:54:15


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I really don't believe that "gotcha moments" are cheating, but can easily leave a bad taste in your mouth towards your win if taken out of context.

In a tournament setting, it is not your job to explain all the interactions of your army to your opponent. In a tournament setting it is honestly up to you to know what to look out for in a faction outside of what you play as part of tournament preparation. Truthfully answering questions you are asked though, that is part of playing your army and you should be disgusted with yourself if you go out of your way to leave info out to achieve a victory (my personal opinion, play to win in a tournament without telling lies, so no judgement will be passed if I failed to learn about my opponent).

In casual play or tournament prep though... not telling your opponent about how things work ahead of time just feels dirty. If your list can't win without resorting to relying on your opponent's ignorance of a rules interaction... your list isn't likely to make it far in the first place.

Telling your opponent in casual play/tournament prep about how your list operates is the best way to learn how to play into counters. And not playing an uphill game in practice matches is doing yourself a disservice.


I think this post nails it.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/10/24 07:25:24


Post by: cuda1179


I was remenissing with a friend and he called me out on a "gotcha" moment I pulled from our past. back in 3rd edition, about a year after the Chaos 3.5 codex came out White Dwarf released updated Cypher rules. I bought his mini and was anxious to use him.

Opportunity came when our FLGS held a mega battle. Rules were: 1. One Force Org chart and one superheavy per person. 2. No proxies, painted minis only. 3. Chaos on one side, Imperial on the other. 4. Only one of any special character for the entire game (so two guys can't both bring Dante for example).

I cleared Cypher with BOTH sides and the organizers to make sure no one else wanted to use him. The rest of my army was a Warhound titan, Imperial Guard tank line, and a unit of Fallen.

My Fallen unit is where I may have been in the "technically legal" department, which totally angered a Chaos opponent. A unit of Fallen counted as a unit of Chaos marines from the Chaos codex. Those marines could take the mark of Tzeench. One unit if Tzeench marines per army may upgrade to Rubric Terminators. I then deepstriked a blob of Fallen Tzeench Terminators onto an objective (which I announced). However, unknown to me, the other side forgot that these Chaos Terminators were technically on the Imperial side and ignored them.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/10/25 06:38:54


Post by: GrinNfool


Would agree with a lot of others, its not technically cheating, but depending on the setting (non tourney for sure) it would be good sportsmanship to warn people if they are about to do something that lets you use something you yourself think is a "gotcha"

However while your opponent is trying to decide what to do with moving or targeting and ask you a question like say... "Do you have any strats or abilities that would let you shoot a unit arriving from deepstrike or ability like that" And you answer no... then do it ya that would be cheating.

I tend to coach newer players to always be asking questions if you aren't sure or just aren't as familiar with your opponents army ask them if they can do this or that, or have a "transhuman" like ability etc. While in a casual game I would hope players are friendly, you can't always expect it, and its best to just maintain an open dialogue to learn. If your opponent point blank lies to you... well you probably don't want to play with them anyways.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/10/25 13:07:32


Post by: Ordana


GrinNfool wrote:
Would agree with a lot of others, its not technically cheating, but depending on the setting (non tourney for sure) it would be good sportsmanship to warn people if they are about to do something that lets you use something you yourself think is a "gotcha"

However while your opponent is trying to decide what to do with moving or targeting and ask you a question like say... "Do you have any strats or abilities that would let you shoot a unit arriving from deepstrike or ability like that" And you answer no... then do it ya that would be cheating.

I tend to coach newer players to always be asking questions if you aren't sure or just aren't as familiar with your opponents army ask them if they can do this or that, or have a "transhuman" like ability etc. While in a casual game I would hope players are friendly, you can't always expect it, and its best to just maintain an open dialogue to learn. If your opponent point blank lies to you... well you probably don't want to play with them anyways.
Its a good thing to do but the immediate issue is that you can't ask for something that you don't know exists.

I played a Custodes bike army for a while, if you don't know that Stooping Dive exists your going to get slapped when I charge you at the end of your own charge phase. No one else can do that, so why on earth would you expect that 1 unit in the game can do it? I would ask all my opponents if they know about that rule just to avoid the horrible gotcha moments that can happen. But the fact that I had to do that is a fault of the game.




Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/11/02 17:51:28


Post by: kronk


 Mulletdude wrote:

I would expect my opponent to be forthcoming at the start of the game as to which stratagems are available to his army in a general sense. Example: "I can use a stratagem to allow my Sanguinary Guard to Intervene 6", "I have a stratagem to shoot a Slannesh Infantry units weapons twice", etc. I wouldn't expect them to tell me at the beginning of the game that "This strat will be used on these terminators to shoot twice", but just the general text. Gotcha moments are terrible for all involved and should be avoided at all costs. Let the skill of the players on the tabletop determine results, not gotcha moments.


I have all of my available stratagem cards on hand at an event. I only pull out the cards I can use with my list. I have no intention of reading all 24 of them to my opponent before each game. However, if they want to take time off THEIR half of the chess clock to read them, be my guest.

On the other hand, "Hey, I'm going to charge those dudes. Do you have any army specific stratagems that would affect that fight?" is a fair question and should be answered directly and honestly, or you're a poor sport who likes watching Gilmore Girls.

Similarly, "Do you have any fight first or fight last units or tricks" at the start of the game is a good question.

Just my two cents.


Is Gotcha Moments Cheating? @ 2021/11/03 08:32:44


Post by: tneva82


It takes me less than minute to explain any potential gotcha's to opponent if he's new to facing my faction. Easy enough to do while deploying.

Only reason not to warn the opponent of gotcha's is if you are so lousy player you desperately need gotcha's to even have a stand of winning. Aka you are just noob smasher. Can win noobs who don't know your gotchas, against any semi-decent player you suck and are dependant on random dice rolls to carry you to win.