So it seems CSM may be further out, but maybe we'll catch an index or two before then.
First up are The Fallen. Let the speculation run wild.
Will Cypher get his groove back? How many wounds are too many for the Warp? Will the jokes about Dark Angels finally end? All this and more on the next edition of...The Indexes.
Fallen rules wise seem to be a very bad version of csm, so I guess an index could help them. An odd choice though, picking them specifically over something like Tau or GSC.
White Dwarf Indexes have only covered small factions or single chapters or the like. They aren't going to index a whole codex. So Fallen makes sense as an Index since they don't actually have to cover very much in the index itself. Beyond Cypher and maybe a new Fallen datasheet, everything will refer you to an existing codex for rules to use in conjunction with some sort of Fallen Legion or Chapter tactic. Detachment construction rules, use with other army rule, a few stratagems, a warlord trait or two, and some relics and you are good to go.
I think this could mean that Fallen aren't in the CSM Codex anymore where they were a strange outlier anyway and had basically no support at all. They didn't fit in there and it probably would have been more useful to include them in the Dark Angels supplement right away.
But I'm not saying it's bad to see them here, on the contrary, it's good to see a faction that actually needs some help and not Space Marine Chapter 589 that someone in the team made up under the shower 5 minutes before writing the article.
The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...
Probably going to be Cypher, sorcerer, chosen elite, special vanguard rule to reimburse points, strats, etc. Really hope they do more, but expectation levels super low.
drbored wrote: The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...
So... I dunno, not expecting much.
Well the shouldn’t really be thought of as chaos marines but I suppose GW have never told us what they look like in the current timeline. Or please direct me to a book or something that does.
The original idea was that all of the fallen were scattered throughout space and time so the idea that they are all in the same place to make up a traitor legion type organisation to me is a bit of a retcon. So o think the idea previously was that you could take a fallen squad but not really a whole army.
I also feel they have been left a bit like alpha legion in that some of the fallen followed Luther into chaos and some of them were just following orders and some of them like cypher are possibly fighting their own war in favour of the imperium. So some could be mutants like CSM and some might just be first born.
But like CSM it’s strange that they don’t have units made from 30k technology and units
In theory the fallen should have loads of great technology considering what the DA have tucked away in the rock. Hover bikes, various terminator armour, and they should have Dreadwing units.
But they won’t.
The other thing I am curious about is the fact that Luther has escaped the rock. Will GW even acknowledge this? We got a new cypher model not long ago so expect he will be the warlord. But as this says index heretics on the front of the magazine I’m wondering if fallen will have the keyword CHAOS this time.
I started a DA army a couple of years ago when I got back into 40K but got a bit bored with and have toyed with idea repurposing them as a fallen. I’m hoping this index provides the enough of a picture to do so.
drbored wrote: The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...
So... I dunno, not expecting much.
Well the shouldn’t really be thought of as chaos marines but I suppose GW have never told us what they look like in the current timeline. Or please direct me to a book or something that does.
The original idea was that all of the fallen were scattered throughout space and time so the idea that they are all in the same place to make up a traitor legion type organisation to me is a bit of a retcon. So o think the idea previously was that you could take a fallen squad but not really a whole army.
I also feel they have been left a bit like alpha legion in that some of the fallen followed Luther into chaos and some of them were just following orders and some of them like cypher are possibly fighting their own war in favour of the imperium. So some could be mutants like CSM and some might just be first born.
But like CSM it’s strange that they don’t have units made from 30k technology and units
In theory the fallen should have loads of great technology considering what the DA have tucked away in the rock. Hover bikes, various terminator armour, and they should have Dreadwing units.
But they won’t.
The other thing I am curious about is the fact that Luther has escaped the rock. Will GW even acknowledge this? We got a new cypher model not long ago so expect he will be the warlord. But as this says index heretics on the front of the magazine I’m wondering if fallen will have the keyword CHAOS this time.
There's plenty of ways to make Fallen actually work - as a CSM subfaction, as a chaos-aligned DA subfaction, as a mix of the two, or as a small faction that can be allied in inquisition-style without removing special snowflake rules from their host faction. GW just needs to pick one and fething go with it.
Having them work similar to inquisition seems like a solid bet - say, they only have Sorcerors/Cypher/Fallen/Rhinos/maybe the other generic CSM stuff like terminators bikers predators LR's etcetc, and give them the ability to add a Patrol detachment (with Fallen as Troops) to any Chaos or Imperium army without costing the purity bonus rules.
This is how I think GW shoul really structure the 'minor factions intended to be allies' going forward. The Assassins, the Rogue Traders, the Ecclesiarchy-but-not-sisters units, the Inquisition, the Ynnari - give them a new categorization as Supplemental Factions and allow you to take a single particular type of detachment varying by which faction we're talking about that does not cost you your special snowflake purity rules.
Yeah wouldn’t surprise me, we have had a bunch of good indexes for yet more space marine chapters and when GW finally look at something different and really interesting it’s will be light touch and disappointing
What would it take to make Cypher any good in 9th? I would suggest making him a Character Assassin.
#1 - Can be taken in any detachment in any Chaos or Imperium army, unless those armies also contain at least one DARK ANGEL model. He does not use a Force Organization slot when taken in such detachments, and does not count when checking such an army's or detachment's keywords, but also can not benefit from army or detachment special rules. (ie. he will not benefit from nor prevent such abilities as those gained from abilities like Legion Traits, Angels or Death, or Doctrines.)
#2 - Can Deep Strike. He needs to get where he needs to get, so can deep strike.
#3 - Can ignore "Look Out Sir!" so he can snipe Characters, but he also only benefits from "Look Out Sir!" if he is within 3" of another friendly unit of FALLEN.
#4 - His Pistols have +6" range, making it harder to zone him out to prevent him from going to town.
#5 - He can overwatch, and uses his regular Ballistic Skills when he does so. He also overwatches on shooting, so gets to shoot prior to any unit attempting to shoot him, and resolves this before they get to shoot him.
#6 - Can Re-Strike. Give him the ability to leave the battlefield and set back up again the following turn.
#7 - When he is destroyed, roll a dice. On a 2+, he is removed from play but does not count as destroyed for any victory points.
This is how I think GW should really structure the 'minor factions intended to be allies' going forward. The Assassins, the Rogue Traders, the Ecclesiarchy-but-not-sisters units, the Inquisition, the Ynnari - give them a new categorization as Supplemental Factions and allow you to take a single particular type of detachment varying by which faction we're talking about that does not cost you your special snowflake purity rules.
Mostly agree, but the other thing they need to do is refund CP for detachments from factions that have no troops.
Inquisition detachments, even if the Inquisitor is your Warlord cost CP because it's not possible to make a patrol, battalion or brigade. Same with SoS. Rogue Traders are in a weirder place because they are usually just characters.... But not always. Elucia Vhane has the Starstriders. I'd love it if Janus and Murad had retinues as well... But then they'd be in the position of costing CP for their detachment even if you made one of them a warlord.
The Imperial Agent rule DOES work for solos. But once detachments come into the equation, things get problematic.
This is how I think GW should really structure the 'minor factions intended to be allies' going forward. The Assassins, the Rogue Traders, the Ecclesiarchy-but-not-sisters units, the Inquisition, the Ynnari - give them a new categorization as Supplemental Factions and allow you to take a single particular type of detachment varying by which faction we're talking about that does not cost you your special snowflake purity rules.
Mostly agree, but the other thing they need to do is refund CP for detachments from factions that have no troops.
Inquisition detachments, even if the Inquisitor is your Warlord cost CP because it's not possible to make a patrol, battalion or brigade. Same with SoS. Rogue Traders are in a weirder place because they are usually just characters.... But not always. Elucia Vhane has the Starstriders. I'd love it if Janus and Murad had retinues as well... But then they'd be in the position of costing CP for their detachment even if you made one of them a warlord.
The Imperial Agent rule DOES work for solos. But once detachments come into the equation, things get problematic.
I dunno, if I was going to be bringing the starstriders or the gellerpox units or unaligned units or something to a game it'd probably not be for any competitive reason, we probably would not be going super-stickler with matched play rules for it, itd be some weird narrative play thing.
I often just use them as a counts-as if i'm playing a matched play game and I want to use the models.
If you're expecting anything more than a Copy-Paste from Vigilus 2: Cadia-a-like Boogaloo, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment and have failed at pattern recognition.
EDIT: I like how the cover art of Cypher is so significantly different to his super edgy model.
drbored wrote: The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...
So... I dunno, not expecting much.
Well the shouldn’t really be thought of as chaos marines but I suppose GW have never told us what they look like in the current timeline. Or please direct me to a book or something that does.
Just gonna be some garbage fallen units, painting tips and some hype propaganda for when CSM arrives in late December 2021 with our 2 wounds at at last, also with the usual overcosted units, and ofc World Eaters with new garbage + attack stratagems and buttom tier relics that still wont keep us alive to get to the enemy. This is GW now ever since that garbage shoot to win 8th edition arrived. Sure things go faster now in terms of release, but i havent bought a 40k book since 2016. I preferr the free pdfs since they arent worth the paper they are printed on
The more I think about it, considering there is already a fallen unit in a box and a new cypher model I expect this will be an update to the rules for those 2 units.
But then why not just wait for the CSM codex? Maybe they are coming out the CSM codex.
The September 2019 White Dwarf had the Dark Angels Index with pictures, background, modeling, painting, stories and a single Narrative Mission in terms of rules.
Brutallica wrote: and ofc World Eaters with new garbage + attack stratagems and buttom tier relics that still wont keep us alive to get to the enemy.
You should try WE in 9th. In fact more people should. I bet they'd be surprised even without 2 wounds.
I have - they're very mediocre, because "getting there" is a lot more essential to a melee army than dealing damage once you are. Particularly with Khorne Berserkers, who annihilate anything they touch with/without World Eaters bonuses... if they can get there relatively unmolested. Creations of Bile and Emperor's Children are so much better for melee it's embarrassing.
I don't think CSM dex will be long- I think both CSM Daemons are coming soon. The warhammer week previews from May 3rd-8th should talk about Charadon Act 2, and the factions included in it should be the next wave of dex releases.
The 3 week hiatus on preorders + the existing delay of dexes has really taken a toll, and it's making it seem like it will take forever, but those delays should resolve eventually.
I can't speculate on how good the Fallen Index will be. I've found 9th Index articles to be rules light, but they've all been Marines, who already have so much to work with.
In 8th, the Inquisition one, the Harlequin PA article and the Ynarri one were fairly well developed- Inquisition and Ynarri were almost identical to what eventually was released as PA. The SoS Index was really good for fluff, but light on rules.
Brutallica wrote: and ofc World Eaters with new garbage + attack stratagems and buttom tier relics that still wont keep us alive to get to the enemy.
You should try WE in 9th. In fact more people should. I bet they'd be surprised even without 2 wounds.
I have - they're very mediocre, because "getting there" is a lot more essential to a melee army than dealing damage once you are. Particularly with Khorne Berserkers, who annihilate anything they touch with/without World Eaters bonuses... if they can get there relatively unmolested. Creations of Bile and Emperor's Children are so much better for melee it's embarrassing.
You can take beserkers in a creations of bile army and up their movement and strength
MinMax wrote: I have - they're very mediocre, because "getting there" is a lot more essential to a melee army than dealing damage once you are. Particularly with Khorne Berserkers, who annihilate anything they touch with/without World Eaters bonuses... if they can get there relatively unmolested. Creations of Bile and Emperor's Children are so much better for melee it's embarrassing.
Sisters run Repentia in Rhinos without hassle and those are 1 point cheaper with no armor.
Fight first sword DP. Jump Lord w/ Gorefather. Discolord with two Maulers. Apostle with 5++ and 30 cultists. 24 Bezerkers and 3 Rhinos. Scorpius.
Maybe you're not going to win a tournament but you should win games.
Yeah, ive been playing WE in 9th a couple of times, and, the army is still struggleing against heavy shoot lists (wich is very much still a thing along with first turn dominance). And yes 9th is better than 8th in terms of fun and crusade no doubt. But the only attack charge targets rule have put a big wrench in the machine for berserkers, basicly nullifing the bonuses of 9th from a WE perspective. So yeah my take is world eater with berserkers and rhinos are just as bad as in 8th. And them takeing our 2 wound marine hostage for codex sales instead of a FAQ/Errata or whatever is getting me real cranky. I think its a spit in the face for loyal customers.
PenitentJake wrote: The SoS Index was really good for fluff, but light on rules.
Was it? We learn't basically nothing which we hadn't already got in their Codex; and there are still gaping holes in their very basic background (like where/why are they getting all this special armour and outdated weaponry? How do Cadre naming conventions work? Do they have any units beyond those which have rules? What are their views on other Imperial organisations? What do those organisations think of them? How do you use thought/battle sign to coordinate a battle..?)
TBH it is pure horsegak that they keep delaying CSM and GK. These factions are garbage without getting their 2nd wound. If they are not going to release the book any time soon then for the love of god errata the fething things already.
Hopefully the wait for a CSM book is because we're getting something significant with it, but there's still no excuse for the lack of FAQ/Index PDF with the second wound etc. As it stands, I'll be surprised if we get a book this year.
Because GW can say what ever they want, if it is not writen down as a rule or FAQ from an official source people do not agree to playing it the way you want it. May as well start re writing the whole codex, if you don't like it, specially if GW said something like they said about GSC.
mrFickle wrote: Why do you have to wait for an faq before you start playing with W2? GW said CSM would go to 2w so just do it
Because 1) There's a points increase and we don't know what it will be, and 2) most people will not houserule it, it has to be officially updated or you're "cheating" to ask to use it.
Sasori wrote: I am curious if this is going to end up being a bit of a sneak preview for CSM. I doubt it, but it sure would be nice.
I'd hope we'd see Daemons before we see CSM.
I just don't want CSM to arrive before WE and EC, otherwise we get a Codex that has detailed entries for 1KSons, Plague Marines, and then Berzerker and/or Noise Marine entries that will be lame compared to their no-doubt updated WE/EC versions.
PenitentJake wrote: The SoS Index was really good for fluff, but light on rules.
Was it? We learn't basically nothing which we hadn't already got in their Codex; and there are still gaping holes in their very basic background (like where/why are they getting all this special armour and outdated weaponry? How do Cadre naming conventions work? Do they have any units beyond those which have rules? What are their views on other Imperial organisations? What do those organisations think of them? How do you use thought/battle sign to coordinate a battle..?)
Yeah, in hindsight, I guess there are significant gaps. I did like the fact that we got sub-factions; the fluff did, as I recall, discuss their work with the Custodes as Talons, drew new connections with the Hereticus while affirming their role as Custodians of the Black Ships and the Astra Telepathica. I also liked the Indomitus Crusade as a motivational force to bring them into more frequent contact with the enemies of the Imperium. But upon reflection, I guess they didn't go particularly far down any of those rabbit holes.
I was disappointed that they didn't include any sub-faction content in the PA rules, and I was disappointed that they didn't include minimally a generic HQ and a Troop unit.
I found Alyea's inability to function on her own and lead SoS as SoS to be the biggest of the insults; to be fair, I didn't read the novels that inspired the model.
Daedalus81 wrote: So it seems CSM may be further out, but maybe we'll catch an index or two before then.
First up are The Fallen. Let the speculation run wild.
Don't see it.
At best this looks like dumping the Fallen out of the Chaos Codex so they aren't wasting space there and somewhere (years) down the line they'll dump them into Legends and go back to not caring about them.
Having played WE at an RTT I can say they aren't terrible. I took some wins against SM, DW, SW, but got utterly dumpstered by DG.
The difference between WE and DG is insane. Not only do DG out-shoot WE, which you would expect against a melee focused army, but they will absolutely destroy you in melee. If you are playing WE there is basically nothing you can do against DG that will result in a win.
It isn't even worth my time to engage with you. "LOL"
Well don't make obviously unfounded statements that have no basis in reality. World Eaters are bad, just not Word Bearers bad. You can do a better Khorne army with Alpha Legion.
Daedalus81 wrote: So it seems CSM may be further out, but maybe we'll catch an index or two before then.
First up are The Fallen. Let the speculation run wild.
Don't see it.
At best this looks like dumping the Fallen out of the Chaos Codex so they aren't wasting space there and somewhere (years) down the line they'll dump them into Legends and go back to not caring about them.
This is what I suspect but then we’re are your units coming from, codex CSM, codex SM (firstborns) Codex DA or 30k DA.
Either way GW have finally got me to buy a copy of WD
Shouldn't the fallen have a ton of the old DA gear from the heresy times? all those rad weapons, phosphor ammo , volkites etc Or did the Lion leave the Luther forces armed with just the basic flamer, rocket launcher, bolter combo and nothing else?
Fergie0044 wrote: Let's just all set our expectations very very low, that way no one gets hurt.
Nope, I think this is slow release of the fallen as a major player in the 40K universe. First we will get this list and ultimately there will be a fallen codex complemented by the release of a Luther model and an el Johnson model for the DA.
They will forget all other priorities and tear up the universe looking for each other or are they really working together. And then alpharius will be released as a model because the fallen are really the alpha legion or are they or were they all along. And there will be soooooooo many coooooopl memes about people being traitors all along.
Too little , too late, for an "subfaction" that was always centered around 1 dude basically.
Literally any of the following would've been a better Index type WD release:
Tau Auxilia.
Kroot mercenaries.
Gretchin revolution
Lost and the damned / R&H.
Eclesiarchy (non SoB variant)
Eldar corsairs
Ynnari.
Specific typus of a tyranid subfleet.
Speedcult
Prerelease of WE / EC / both.
Not Online!!! wrote: Too little , too late, for an "subfaction" that was always centered around 1 dude basically.
Literally any of the following would've been a better Index type WD release:
Tau Auxilia.
Kroot mercenaries.
Gretchin revolution
Lost and the damned / R&H.
Eclesiarchy (non SoB variant)
Eldar corsairs
Ynnari.
Specific typus of a tyranid subfleet.
Speedcult
Prerelease of WE / EC / both.
As someone with a Heresy DA army that could play as Fallen in 40k can I just add that no, literally none of those would've been better as far as I'm concerned
Not Online!!! wrote: Too little , too late, for an "subfaction" that was always centered around 1 dude basically.
Literally any of the following would've been a better Index type WD release:
Tau Auxilia.
Kroot mercenaries.
Gretchin revolution
Lost and the damned / R&H.
Eclesiarchy (non SoB variant)
Eldar corsairs
Ynnari.
Specific typus of a tyranid subfleet.
Speedcult
Prerelease of WE / EC / both.
As someone with a Heresy DA army that could play as Fallen in 40k can I just add that no, literally none of those would've been better as far as I'm concerned
Assuming GW do something as cool as provide data sheets for using HH minis in 40K. I know there are some existing overlaps but allowing all the DA 30k units to be used for the fallen in 40K? Well why not have all the traitor legions use the FW models and just release an index. I think this would be amazing and it makes sense but I don’t see it happening. There aren’t any wooden spikes on those models
Not Online!!! wrote: Too little , too late, for an "subfaction" that was always centered around 1 dude basically.
Literally any of the following would've been a better Index type WD release:
Tau Auxilia.
Kroot mercenaries.
Gretchin revolution
Lost and the damned / R&H.
Eclesiarchy (non SoB variant)
Eldar corsairs
Ynnari.
Specific typus of a tyranid subfleet.
Speedcult
Prerelease of WE / EC / both.
As someone with a Heresy DA army that could play as Fallen in 40k can I just add that no, literally none of those would've been better as far as I'm concerned
Assuming GW do something as cool as provide data sheets for using HH minis in 40K. I know there are some existing overlaps but allowing all the DA 30k units to be used for the fallen in 40K? Well why not have all the traitor legions use the FW models and just release an index. I think this would be amazing and it makes sense but I don’t see it happening. There aren’t any wooden spikes on those models
it also goes against GW's current design paradigm of chaos marines, in which you right now find the fallen for some unknown reason.
Because according to GW daemonengines are the only thing that exists anymore for CSM, because the rest can't be maintained or some such.
I also don't think that the rules will be particulary interesting, they weren't interesting in vigilus and before or after.
It's also another PA faction, of which we have several that need still an update.
It's also a PA faction despite other factions clearly having also far larger sub groups than them, they are also not an unified faction either.
Not Online!!! wrote: Too little , too late, for an "subfaction" that was always centered around 1 dude basically.
Literally any of the following would've been a better Index type WD release:
Tau Auxilia.
Kroot mercenaries.
Gretchin revolution
Lost and the damned / R&H.
Eclesiarchy (non SoB variant)
Eldar corsairs
Ynnari.
Specific typus of a tyranid subfleet.
Speedcult
Prerelease of WE / EC / both.
As someone with a Heresy DA army that could play as Fallen in 40k can I just add that no, literally none of those would've been better as far as I'm concerned
Assuming GW do something as cool as provide data sheets for using HH minis in 40K. I know there are some existing overlaps but allowing all the DA 30k units to be used for the fallen in 40K? Well why not have all the traitor legions use the FW models and just release an index. I think this would be amazing and it makes sense but I don’t see it happening. There aren’t any wooden spikes on those models
it also goes against GW's current design paradigm of chaos marines, in which you right now find the fallen for some unknown reason.
Because according to GW daemonengines are the only thing that exists anymore for CSM, because the rest can't be maintained or some such.
I also don't think that the rules will be particulary interesting, they weren't interesting in vigilus and before or after.
It's also another PA faction, of which we have several that need still an update.
It's also a PA faction despite other factions clearly having also far larger sub groups than them, they are also not an unified faction either.
Codex CSM on really properly describes the black legion and the rest of the traitor legions are shoe horned in. The fact that DG and TS have their own codexes with different models proves this. It’s just that GW has bothered to make codexes for more legions but knows we want to play them.
Fallen don’t fit in any codex so this means that this index will either be really interested or just more of the same. Which would be a shame seeing as GW is really trying to focus on enabling narrative play.
Of course they could come out and add some more fluff that states that over the last 10k years cypher has located most of the fallen and they have gone through some level of mutation but that means they have been hiding in the eye of terror.
But then wasn’t cypher presented as a dark hero recently, part of saving the imperium from the great rift?
It isn't even worth my time to engage with you. "LOL"
Well don't make obviously unfounded statements that have no basis in reality. World Eaters are bad, just not Word Bearers bad. You can do a better Khorne army with Alpha Legion.
Sorry, I'm pretty much done with you. You post in bad faith so often it isn't even worth my time.
Can GW get their head out of their ass for 1 month and just release something proper? Half the codexes in the game are either unannounced, or unreleased. Multiple factions are currently waiting for Game wide buffs (wounds, Melta, Flamer) But sure, instead of upgrading all CSM to 2/3 wounds, lets give an obscure and worthless sub faction a update. Great. Now next week maybe we can update the Euclidian Star striders, or the Ratlings, or the Blackstone Fortress units!!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can GW get their head out of their ass for 1 month and just release something proper? Half the codexes in the game are either unannounced, or unreleased. Multiple factions are currently waiting for Game wide buffs (wounds, Melta, Flamer) But sure, instead of upgrading all CSM to 2/3 wounds, lets give an obscure and worthless sub faction a update. Great. Now next week maybe we can update the Euclidian Star striders, or the Ratlings, or the Blackstone Fortress units!!
the chaos units of the blackstone fortress once were a propper working faction and actually quite relevant in the 40k context.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can GW get their head out of their ass for 1 month and just release something proper? Half the codexes in the game are either unannounced, or unreleased. Multiple factions are currently waiting for Game wide buffs (wounds, Melta, Flamer) But sure, instead of upgrading all CSM to 2/3 wounds, lets give an obscure and worthless sub faction a update. Great. Now next week maybe we can update the Euclidian Star striders, or the Ratlings, or the Blackstone Fortress units!!
The White Dwarf is exactly the right place to release fluff (certainly) and rules (remains to be seen) for obscure and niche sub factions.
We don't get Fallen instead of Chaos Marines, we get them in addition.
What is something proper in your eyes? Maybe a Xenos faction like Dark Eldar this month? Or maybe a Chaos faction like Death Guard in January?
You sound a lot like you make yourself tushy troubled over this topic, when it's really not worth the emotion.
It isn't even worth my time to engage with you. "LOL"
Well don't make obviously unfounded statements that have no basis in reality. World Eaters are bad, just not Word Bearers bad. You can do a better Khorne army with Alpha Legion.
Sorry, I'm pretty much done with you. You post in bad faith so often it isn't even worth my time.
What's bad faith here? You're literally the only person that has defended bad armies. Quite frankly I wouldn't be shocked if you had posts defending Genestealer Cults. World Eaters are bad, so why is it hard to admit that?
The White Dwarf, IMHO, is never the right place to release new rules. Not everyone has access to a copy so not everyone would be aware of a rules change. Rule changes should be made in FAQs and/or Errata.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: The White Dwarf, IMHO, is never the right place to release new rules. Not everyone has access to a copy so not everyone would be aware of a rules change. Rule changes should be made in FAQs and/or Errata.
You can buy digital copies. My question is will these rules be added to the app, if not how do you get them retrospectively. Which backs up your point about not releasing them in a magazine.
I'm sick of having Rules sets spread over 6 different; albeit purchasable, sources, when I buy an entire book dedicated to the fething rules of my faction in the first place. FAQs, codexes, sub codexes, campaign books, White dwarf issues, and CA books. It's too much.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What's bad faith here? You're literally the only person that has defended bad armies. Quite frankly I wouldn't be shocked if you had posts defending Genestealer Cults. World Eaters are bad, so why is it hard to admit that?
Not worth my time. You're right - everyone else is wrong. There's no room to have a discussion. I get it.
If I cared I'd put up a list on TTS, but right now I need to practice with Necrons for a tournament.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sick of having Rules sets spread over 6 different; albeit purchasable, sources, when I buy an entire book dedicated to the fething rules of my faction in the first place. FAQs, codexes, sub codexes, campaign books, White dwarf issues, and CA books. It's too much.
So let's say you play Space Marines, you have the generic Codex and now a suppledex to go on top of that. All of the Chapters with GW minis, note I specify GW, have their rules in the generic codex and further rules in their suppledexes. Thus far the only Chapters that got Index Astartes rules are the Flesh Tearers, which got bundled into the Blood Angels book, the Exorcists, a very minor Chapter that has been confirmed as Dorn's lineage and may well be bundled into the Fists suppledex, and the Blood Ravens, who only have Angelos and their rules are in the FW index.
So if you are playing any Space Marine Chapter you need the generic codex and the supplement OR a WD. That's it. Unless you intend to play literally every single Chapter there is but at that point that's your choice and not GW's fault.
As for the stuff in Charadon. You can play all of those armies without the stuff in that book, 90% of your rules content is in the codex. This isn't 6th edition Orks where anything released after 4th edition had rules in a WD i.e. the first three planes, the Gork/Morkanauts and possibly the Flash Gitz.
Ok, but that's a straw man. I am not playing one of the blessed factions that has a 9th ed codex, like most of the player base I am still on 8th, which means FAQs, Spider War, CAs, and WD issues.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What's bad faith here? You're literally the only person that has defended bad armies. Quite frankly I wouldn't be shocked if you had posts defending Genestealer Cults. World Eaters are bad, so why is it hard to admit that?
Not worth my time. You're right - everyone else is wrong. There's no room to have a discussion. I get it.
If I cared I'd put up a list on TTS, but right now I need to practice with Necrons for a tournament.
LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
Not Online!!! wrote: Too little , too late, for an "subfaction" that was always centered around 1 dude basically.
Literally any of the following would've been a better Index type WD release:
Tau Auxilia.
Kroot mercenaries.
Gretchin revolution
Lost and the damned / R&H.
Eclesiarchy (non SoB variant)
Eldar corsairs
Ynnari.
Specific typus of a tyranid subfleet.
Speedcult
Prerelease of WE / EC / both.
Well, I guess it's a good thing that WD will need something to fill those pages next month, the month after that, and so on....
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ok, but that's a straw man. I am not playing one of the blessed factions that has a 9th ed codex, like most of the player base I am still on 8th, which means FAQs, Spider War, CAs, and WD issues.
If you're playing an army that hasn't been updated to a 9th codex then that's just how it is right now and the situation doesn't apply to the 9th edition armies. If you were playing a 9th ed army and had to buy a codex, suppledex, WD, and a campaign book to use all your faction rules then sure I could sympathise. I do want to know what army you play however because in my experience no army has needed all of those for access to all its possible rules.
Also, everyone has FAQ's. Try playing 30k where there hasn't been an FAQ for 90% of the game for two years.
Not Online!!! wrote: Too little , too late, for an "subfaction" that was always centered around 1 dude basically.
While I can't disagree that there are more forces that could use some addressing, The Fallen had more models out than Citadel had for Sisters of Silence or Custodes had at the beginning of 7th Ed.
So 1 model isn't as tiny a block as one might think.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can GW get their head out of their ass for 1 month and just release something proper? Half the codexes in the game are either unannounced, or unreleased. Multiple factions are currently waiting for Game wide buffs (wounds, Melta, Flamer) But sure, instead of upgrading all CSM to 2/3 wounds, lets give an obscure and worthless sub faction a update. Great. Now next week maybe we can update the Euclidian Star striders, or the Ratlings, or the Blackstone Fortress units!!
Yep - In total agreement. Then again - All the codex should be released at one or within a short period and pretty much everyone would agree with that too. This is just a bad business model made by bad business people.
Considering GW does model releases alongside Codex updates, releasing all the Codexes at the same time would be a hilariously bad idea. You don't release all your product at the same time just so the game your models are used in is "balanced", that's some seriously stupid business practice. At the same time, an FAQ would be a huge task for 30+ codexes plus the BRB. Customer anticipation and constant releases keep the business generating constant money, which is what businesses are designed to do. If you're releasing for 1 or 2 months out of 12 and your competitor is releasing for 12 you've made a serious blunder and the board/investors/shareholders are not gonna be happy with the lack of revenue.
The Index Astartes came with Chapter Tactics, a Relic or two, and some strategems. It was mostly lore and people showing off how much better they are at painting and converting than everyone else.
I'd be amazed if they didn't throw a strategem or two in there but little more than that. A list of lore appropriate units that can take the FALLEN keyword from Codex Chaos Space Marines and possibly Codex Space Marines too would be as much as we can hope regarding new units etc I'd say but that would be pretty good.
Gert wrote: Considering GW does model releases alongside Codex updates, releasing all the Codexes at the same time would be a hilariously bad idea. You don't release all your product at the same time just so the game your models are used in is "balanced", that's some seriously stupid business practice. At the same time, an FAQ would be a huge task for 30+ codexes plus the BRB. Customer anticipation and constant releases keep the business generating constant money, which is what businesses are designed to do. If you're releasing for 1 or 2 months out of 12 and your competitor is releasing for 12 you've made a serious blunder and the board/investors/shareholders are not gonna be happy with the lack of revenue.
The people are going to buy the stuff anyways. Warhammer is more like selling drugs than any other kind of product because it is a literal mental addiction people have to this hobby. They will buy at all times. It would be a hilariously good idea as we would finally have a chance at having a balanced game. Want to generate buzz to sell more product? Just come out with a campaign supplement like PA . Models don't need to come out all at once...just the codex. Models generate their own buzz. It would increase their sales. How many people right now aren't buying CSM because they don't know what models to buy because they have no rules? They are losing money. There is no doubt about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dai wrote: I'd be amazed if they didn't throw a strategem or two in there but little more than that. A list of lore appropriate units that can take the FALLEN keyword from Codex Chaos Space Marines and possibly Codex Space Marines too would be as much as we can hope regarding new units etc I'd say but that would be pretty good.
Fallen literally don't matter and maybe 1 in 1000 players has any interest in such an absurd faction.
CSM on the other hand is probably the 2nd most popular faction in the game behind space marines. Priorities are completely screwed by GW right now.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
The people are going to buy the stuff anyways. Warhammer is more like selling drugs than any other kind of product because it is a literal mental addiction people have to this hobby. They will buy at all times. It would be a hilariously good idea as we would finally have a chance at having a balanced game. Want to generate buzz to sell more product? Just come out with a campaign supplement like PA . Models don't need to come out all at once...just the codex. Models generate their own buzz. It would increase their sales. How many people right now aren't buying CSM because they don't know what models to buy because they have no rules? They are losing money. There is no doubt about it.
A campaign book generates nowhere near the buzz a new codex does. Perfect balance is a myth and only exists in the dreams of children, even the start of 8th with all the Indexes where there was nothing but unit profiles, was unbalanced.
If GW releases a codex with rules for units with no models that gives 3rd parties a chance to make a competing product. The 5th edition Necron codex had a good chunk of units with no models which meant that all of those units were unusable until the models were released months later, so releasing a codex with any new units without models isn't going to generate sales. GW isn't losing money because they haven't updated all the codexes to 9th edition, some people buy models for the competitive edge and others will buy what they like best, some do both. At the same time, you will have new players who will go for the basics (a Start Collecting or Combat Patrol) and then fall into the categories I mentioned. 9th edition got announced midway through Covid and GW saw a huge sales increase over that period, which would indicate that even without any knowledge of how the new edition would affect their armies people were still buying models.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fallen literally don't matter and maybe 1 in 1000 players has any interest in such an absurd faction.
CSM on the other hand is probably the 2nd most popular faction in the game behind space marines. Priorities are completely screwed by GW right now.
I must be forgetting Cypher saved Guilliman, helped him get to Terra and possibly has the Lion Sword. I must have also forgotten that the Fallen are the reason the Deathwing, Ravenwing, Inner Circle, and Interrogator Chaplains exist in their current form and that the Dark Angels are the Unforgiven purely because the Fallen exist. I'm sure the traitors of a loyalist Legion who are still alive and very much kicking in the current timeline are completely irrelevant and minor, with their discovery bringing no doubt whatsoever into the loyalties of the Dark Angels and their Successors.
As for faction popularity, Death Guard are more popular than generic CSM thanks to Dark Imperium and the recent full model range they received. I'd be willing to bet that Aeldari, Orks, Nids and Necrons all rank higher on army popularity than CSM right now.
The Fallen are getting a WD Index, not a full Codex because they are too small a faction to get a Codex. This outrage over a tiny amount of supplementary rules is a joke.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
I prefer to talk about world eaters rather than being OK with them being garbage and proxying them as them as Blood Angels or whatever, i get what you are saying. I just but prefer to keep my army identity than throwing it away, thats just as horrible, if not even worse, to me anyway.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
What "HQ detachment"?
The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
I prefer to talk about world eaters rather than being OK with them being garbage and proxying them as them as Blood Angels or whatever, i get what you are saying. I just but prefer to keep my army identity than throwing it away, thats just as horrible, if not even worse, to me anyway.
Army identity only exists in your head. Using your models is what matters, not some garbage about identity and the apparent need for using ONLY certain rules.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
What "HQ detachment"?
The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
The Supreme Command detachment is now for only Primarchs, Daemon Primarchs, and Supreme Commanders. World Eaters don't have any of those.
Funny. How impactful a little white dwarf article can be for an army. Look at harlequins! Strongest army in the game from a few pages of rules updates. Minor effort needed for a very big effect. GW is asleep at the wheel right now.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
What "HQ detachment"?
The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
I prefer to talk about world eaters rather than being OK with them being garbage and proxying them as them as Blood Angels or whatever, i get what you are saying. I just but prefer to keep my army identity than throwing it away, thats just as horrible, if not even worse, to me anyway.
Army identity only exists in your head. Using your models is what matters, not some garbage about identity and the apparent need for using ONLY certain rules.
Hey, if you wanna talk about garbage, id say your advice is exactly that, you wanna proxy, go ahead, heck use your models in backgammon for all i care, i aint stopping you. Im just telling you im defenetly NOT gonna be playing World Eaters as Alpha Legion.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
Gadzilla666 wrote:The Supreme Command detachment is now for only Primarchs, Daemon Primarchs, and Supreme Commanders. World Eaters don't have any of those.
For now. They've already released two Daemon Primarchs at present. At this point, I think it is only a matter of time till we see a Bloodthirster Angron from Citadel. Along with it will be Codex: World Eaters. One can hope it will come out this Edition along with Codex: Emperor's Children and Daemon Prince Fulgrim. It will come, though, unless GW closes their doors permanently with no one to take up the IP.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Army identity only exists in your head. Using your models is what matters, not some garbage about identity and the apparent need for using ONLY certain rules.
Eh, considering how much of army identity is baked in to the rules by GW, it's not as far off as you make it seem.
I would love some Imperial Guard Indexes. Something like:
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers: Replace the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword with <Ordo>.
This then allows Militarum Tempestus units to be taken in Inquisition detachments and benefit from <Ordo> abilities rather than their <Tempestus Regiment> abilities. It also means an Inquisition army can now use Patrol and Battalion detachments.
- Gue'vesa: Replace the Imperium and Astra Militarum keywords with T’au Empire, replace the <Regiment> keyword with Gue'vesa. Add Gue'vesa to the list of Alien Auxiliaries.
By adding Gue'vesa units into the list of Alien Auxiliaries they don't prevent prevent other units from getting a <Sept> Tenet. While Gue'vesa won't benefit from any Sept abilities or stratagems, or even their own Astra Militarum stratagems anymore. They can receive both the benefits from orders, as well as things like Markerlights and Etherals.
Thus filling that tactical thematic niche between the Kroot and the true Tau units.
- Lost and the Damned: Replace the Imperium keyword with Chaos, replace the Astra Militarum keyword with Lost and the Damned, replace the <Regiment> keyword with <Mark Of Chaos> and <Legion>. Add Lost and the Damned to the list of Mere Mortals.
I agree I think WD is a good place for nice indexes which I think the fallen are. What i think is part of the problem is no model no rules thing.
Rather than linking the fallen to existing codex units, either CSM or first born SM, I’d happily have an index with new units that I have to kit bash. Which may be something interesting for people that have been in 40K for a long time.
I remember in 2nd ed (I think) there was a WD with an index for space pirates and of course it was just for fun and you have to find your own suitable minis
bullyboy wrote: Can't wait for the reactions to these Fallen getting 2 wounds before a real chaos codex.
I think people betting on 2 wounds saving the faction are making a bad bet. Lots of marines are struggling right now. W2/W3 isn't doing much to save them. Giving CSM / Fallen W2 won't magically make them good. There's a whole lot more work needed to have that come together.
bullyboy wrote: Can't wait for the reactions to these Fallen getting 2 wounds before a real chaos codex.
I think people betting on 2 wounds saving the faction are making a bad bet. Lots of marines are struggling right now. W2/W3 isn't doing much to save them. Giving CSM / Fallen W2 won't magically make them good. There's a whole lot more work needed to have that come together.
But who is floating around making that bet? I don't think anybody actually expects 2 wounds to save the faction though, it's simply that the issue is emblematic of GW's treatment of CSM. Waiting for a codex overhaul is one thing, waiting for a codex overhaul while also waiting for a wound update that was promised nearly a year ago after seeing PDF updates for various loyalist subfactions is something else entirely. It's just a "feels bad" sort of thing.
W2 wast supposed to make SM superior as a faction it’s to make them superior as troop units over IG regiments, for example, in the context of 9th Ed and the amount of damage being dealt. They need to be more robust than mortal troops.
And who is waiting for the fallen index for competitive reasons? Most people, like me, will do it cos they think the fallen are cool, assuming we get enough units to make the army cool in the way we imagine the fallen, or close enough.
If it’s just another Creations of Bile type rule set then it’s not worth it because the CSM units don’t suit the fallen like they do a COB army. At least not in my head.
Probably there will be enough rules for a a detachment of units including cypher that don’t cost CP. so not a full army index.
jaredb wrote: So, based on warhammer community, looks like they are getting some cheeky rules for the fallen. Even a relic and a strat or two!
I wonder if it'll be a regiment of renoun or something like that?
Hmmmmmmm they said "Specialist Detachment."
That makes me think it's just gona be a reprint of the current specialist detachment they got way back in vigilius: "FALLEN ANGELS
Chaos Space Marines Stratagem
When the Fallen gather in numbers, the machinations of Cypher gain incredible momentum.
Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. You can include Sorcerers and Chaos Rhinos in a Vanguard Detachment that includes only FALLEN units. If you do so, they replace their <MARK OF CHAOS>, HERETIC ASTARTES and <LEGION> keywords with the FALLEN keywords. FALLEN Sorcerers also replace their Death to the False Emperor ability with the Fallen Angels ability from the Fallen datasheet. Pick a FALLEN Detachment from your army to be a Fallen Angels Specialist Detachment. FALLEN units in that Detachment gain the FALLEN ANGELS keyword, but they lose the IMPERIUM Faction keyword (if they have it)."
Basically just "hey you know how your whole army is just one bad unit and one bad HQ? now it's also those two things, plus rhinos and sorcerors. That's it."
jaredb wrote: So, based on warhammer community, looks like they are getting some cheeky rules for the fallen. Even a relic and a strat or two!
I wonder if it'll be a regiment of renoun or something like that?
Hmmmmmmm they said "Specialist Detachment."
That makes me think it's just gona be a reprint of the current specialist detachment they got way back in vigilius: "FALLEN ANGELS
Chaos Space Marines Stratagem
When the Fallen gather in numbers, the machinations of Cypher gain incredible momentum.
Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. You can include Sorcerers and Chaos Rhinos in a Vanguard Detachment that includes only FALLEN units. If you do so, they replace their <MARK OF CHAOS>, HERETIC ASTARTES and <LEGION> keywords with the FALLEN keywords. FALLEN Sorcerers also replace their Death to the False Emperor ability with the Fallen Angels ability from the Fallen datasheet. Pick a FALLEN Detachment from your army to be a Fallen Angels Specialist Detachment. FALLEN units in that Detachment gain the FALLEN ANGELS keyword, but they lose the IMPERIUM Faction keyword (if they have it)."
Basically just "hey you know how your whole army is just one bad unit and one bad HQ? now it's also those two things, plus rhinos and sorcerors. That's it."
New relic: Ap-1 damage 2 2-shot bolt pistol that rerolls 1 ro wound vs dark angels
Stratagem: reroll hit rolls vs dark angels
Also since a demon Prince was shown in that image I predict fallen will not be able to field demon princes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I predict no 2 wound dark angels
Someone said it's 10 pages, so they might have to introduce a new profile for W2 Chosen (which is what they basically have been). If they weren't, people would throw a hissyfit. Then again that hasn't stopped the people here from still purchasing low effort rules sooooooo...
I'm toying with the thought of adding a small detachment of power and/or terminator armour to my guard army. If the Fallen keep the Imperium faction keyword, get a non named character HQ and get 2 wounds, I might buy some of these guys.
Ironically, the other major contender would be a Deathwing Vanguard detachment.
Why do Fallen units currently have the imperium keyword in the CSM codex?
Automatically Appended Next Post: From Warhammer community
“But it’s not just about the lore (fascinating though it is – especially in the case of the Fallen). You can also look forward to rules for a Fallen Angels Specialist Detachment, enabling you to field a bespoke formation of these enigmatic black-armoured renegades, and providing them with Stratagems and even a Relic too.”
There is a picture of a unit being led by cypher which may be a new fallen unit, unsure considering the vast SM range atm
Fallen have the Imperium keyword because Cypher is a dual faction character and his army needed to be the same. Cypher works against Chaos forces as much as Imperial, it's part of his enigma personality, so in-game that's represented by him and the Fallen have Chaos and Imperium keywords.
Gert wrote: Fallen have the Imperium keyword because Cypher is a dual faction character and his army needed to be the same. Cypher works against Chaos forces as much as Imperial, it's part of his enigma personality, so in-game that's represented by him and the Fallen have Chaos and Imperium keywords.
But the extra rules we got in vigilus were to enhance them for a CSM army?
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Fairly sure this is all just a prank since, as we all know, there are no Fallen and never were. Ever.
Very true. No Space Marine has ever fallen to Chaos, and certainly not from the upstanding and 100% loyal at all times Dark Angels. Now, if you could stand aside, Supreme Grand Master Naberius has asked that I and my unquestionably loyalist men fetch the Cup of Retribution for him.
