If I have read this correct is it saying that if I want to run a disciples of belakor army I need to buy Book of Fire. And indeed if I want Belakors 40K data sheet I need to buy a book that I assume is £20
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I assume that for my 20 pounds I will get something as thin as the Creation of Bile army rules in war of the spider
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: More Day 1 DLC, who would've guessed after people defended buying the first one?
I don't know many who did, but this was in the works a while ago. If they do indeed split more admech into this one then it too needs to be left on the shelf and people need to start writing in to protest.
Why is that fine? It’s a £90 model then 20 to run a small army list. This isn’t going to be a codex it’s gonna be a data sheet some strata and a list of units from other codexes that you can use. I doubt there will be any more than you can get front he next white for the fallen
mrFickle wrote: Why is that fine? It’s a £90 model then 20 to run a small army list. This isn’t going to be a codex it’s gonna be a data sheet some strata and a list of units from other codexes that you can use. I doubt there will be any more than you can get front he next white for the fallen
Because it's fully optional.
GW offers you a thing, you gauge its cost against your needs and make a choice. Simple and easy.
When rules for my faction are put into another book, that's a way more dirty commercial approach.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: More Day 1 DLC, who would've guessed after people defended buying the first one?
I don't know many who did, but this was in the works a while ago. If they do indeed split more admech into this one then it too needs to be left on the shelf and people need to start writing in to protest.
Literally nothing is "required" to run AdMech in book I. It was just a specialized list. Frankly, I'd have split that list into three books that were basically must-haves just to tax the Cult Mechanicus complainers who got my Skitarii screwed over anyways.
As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GKPA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.
Karol wrote: As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GKPA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.
You can play GK without the PA, the added PA rules are an option. But I agree you shouldn’t have to pay to have correction made because they out out a crap codex. You can’t play disciples of belakor, or as it seems a CSM/demon soup, without this book.
Unless the rules will also be in the codex demons but we will never know until comes out a long time from now.
mrFickle wrote: Why is it being referred to as DLC? It’s a hard back book
It's used to say that this expansion book contains rules that should be in the Codizes that arrive at the same time. But to make more money these rules are outsourced to that expansion book. DLCs in PC games are similar in that the main game is released incomplete and you have to pay additionally to get more content for your game.
So the question is will these rules ultimately be in codex demons or CSM? I assume the PA rules for bile will be in codex CSM and all the rules that were released for DA are now in the supplement and so on.
Or because this army appears to be a CSM demons soup that a lot of chaos players would be interested in GW will keep it separate.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: More Day 1 DLC, who would've guessed after people defended buying the first one?
I don't know many who did, but this was in the works a while ago. If they do indeed split more admech into this one then it too needs to be left on the shelf and people need to start writing in to protest.
Literally nothing is "required" to run AdMech in book I. It was just a specialized list. Frankly, I'd have split that list into three books that were basically must-haves just to tax the Cult Mechanicus complainers who got my Skitarii screwed over anyways.
Right, I know it isn't "required", but it has more than just a specialist detachment.
Those who normally play Metalica or Raven will want book 1 already.
I guess you could say few people might play Metalica on top of whatever is in the next book, but its still not a great way to handle some of this.
I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
Simple answer: Books are a different production stream, and don't require the in-house production that models do (and in the past they've used several different printing houses).
Some also would have been in production during the periods when GW thought they'd be caught up on their release cycle, and they didn't want to just write off the costs they'd already incurred.
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
That's probably why they're doing this. Ot makes the books more permanent.
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Kanluwen wrote: And if there were supplement books for Metalica or Raven, there'd be whining about that too.
I don't think I'm whining. I just don't think it is a customer centric business practice.
There would not be sufficient content to make a worthwhile supplement for sub factions of that size.
If they had released full supplement books for those particular factions at a normal supplement cost, people would be a lot less upset than shoving 2 pages of rules for 4 different armies into a book and then charging you 60 bucks for it. This isn't a particularly complicated concept.
Of course they aren't going to do that, because supplement books only sell well enough to do for marines. This is a way to boost the sales by trying to get the owners of four different armies to all shell out double price for 1/4 the content.
Spoletta wrote: Because DLC in time took the meaning of "Paid additional content".
Except Belakor should have been standard for rules released within either the CSM or Daons codex. This isn't "additional content" LOL
Yes, but I don't mind having this part if the codex will be a long ways out.
As long as they keep sticking these things in the release schedule every codex will get further and further out. They already have supply issues. This isn't helping that.
Spoletta wrote: Because DLC in time took the meaning of "Paid additional content".
Except Belakor should have been standard for rules released within either the CSM or Daons codex. This isn't "additional content" LOL
Yes, but I don't mind having this part if the codex will be a long ways out.
As long as they keep sticking these things in the release schedule every codex will get further and further out. They already have supply issues. This isn't helping that.
This stuff was planned like a year ago. They already sunk the cost.
Spoletta wrote: Because DLC in time took the meaning of "Paid additional content".
Except Belakor should have been standard for rules released within either the CSM or Daons codex. This isn't "additional content" LOL
Yes, but I don't mind having this part if the codex will be a long ways out.
As long as they keep sticking these things in the release schedule every codex will get further and further out. They already have supply issues. This isn't helping that.
This stuff was planned like a year ago. They already sunk the cost.
Yeah, I know. Doesn't change the fact. Still not a good look to release additional rules for factions so close to their codex. Or before their codex. And they can't blame the various problems on sticking Belakor's rules in this either if it was already planned. That means they planned to release his new model's rules before the Chaos Daemons codex. One datasheet in a $60 book. Ouch.
It's still hard for me to believe we've really gotten to the point where $60 Pre-LC is something people will accept. Some GW marketing executive is patting themselves on the back as we speak.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's still hard for me to believe we've really gotten to the point where $60 Pre-LC is something people will accept. Some GW marketing executive is patting themselves on the back as we speak.
Only a few (at least here). Most people, I suspect, are sitting these warzones out. I really hope the sales figures tell GW to stop this crap.
Unfortunately I suspect Broken Realms will prop this release type up from the AoS side of things.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's still hard for me to believe we've really gotten to the point where $60 Pre-LC is something people will accept. Some GW marketing executive is patting themselves on the back as we speak.
Only a few (at least here). Most people, I suspect, are sitting these warzones out. I really hope the sales figures tell GW to stop this crap.
Unfortunately I suspect Broken Realms will prop this release type up from the AoS side of things.
It helps that the Broken Realms books are $20USD cheaper than these and contain much more useful content to boot.
I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)
I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.
Kanluwen wrote: Literally nothing is "required" to run AdMech in book. It was just a specialized list.
Then why aren't those rules just in the new AdMech book? Why wasn't the Dark Eldar stuff just in the Dark Eldar book that came out the same day?
It's Day-1 DLC, and it's a disgusting practice.
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, I'd have split that list into three books that were basically must-haves just to tax the Cult Mechanicus complainers who got my Skitarii screwed over anyways.
"My Skitarii". AdMech is AdMech is AdMech. This imaginary distinction that you've created for yourself is just beyond silly at this point, especially given we have been told the exact reason why GW split the army in half originally.
I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)
I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.
You want a story that is moveing buy from Audible or something. I never played 40k to buy scattering of semi worthless books to make a faction somewhat whole. Also i dont want to drag around 5 books or so to cover my army and crusade game mode options, and cancer approved if i want a matched play game aswell. And also no one really asked for a Be'Lakor army aka. Fabious Bile v2 (heck, did anyone even ask for fabious bile army?). Mostly people wanted somthing along the lines what Khorne Daemonkin did back in the day, with plenty of options and units, alot of stuff. Im really sick and tired of this watered down stuff, when you buy a codex its mostly bland, nothing really exciteing, they save all that for supplements. GW's constant pressure for people to buy books is really getting annoying. At this point they might aswell rip off the bandaid and have us buy faction booter packs for our unit rules and stratagems. "yo, anyone wanna trade Belakor for 1000 cultist cards?"
Anyway that why im pissed at them, its such a constant money trap with very little for my army and alot of extra i dont care about or want. Give me a proper juicy codex, and ill gladly pay big money. But GW is gonna do their thing, and then so am i with "my" PDF's. Only book ive bought since 2016 is 9th edition rulebook.
It's not the idea of a campaign book, it's every single detail of how they are doing it.
1) Prioritizing releasing "campaign books" over codexes, giving even more rules to certain factions while other factions still stuggle with outdated 8th edition books that can't compete.
2) Holding back content from new codexes in order to instead put them in the "campaign book" that comes out at the exact same time.
3) Creating a "campaign book" that isn't just a campaign book, it has has competitively broken rules in it, because they know a campaign book itself wouldn't sell as well.
4) Putting two pages of rules for four different armies into the book instead of creating a real codex supplement for one faction, again because they hope it'll sell better that way.
5) Then, the turd on the top of the cake, charging a ridiculous $60 price point for the thing.
The whole thing is just super scummy, almost astoundingly so. It's like GW got the criticism from PA - nothing happens, very uneven rule quality, high price point - and said "yeah? you didn't like that? well, have this then, suckers!"
OK, those are fair arguments. I didn't know. I don't mind them, I actually like them, and 60.00 is nothing, but I can certainly understand the criticisms and agree with some of them. thanks for taking the time to explain it.
I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.
First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.
I understand the anger, and I think it's valid. I don't share that anger personally, but I get it.
I do, however, think that once all the codexes are out, campaign books are preferable to an edition reset.
I also don't think it is at all accurate to say that material was held back from a codex; this material wouldn't work in a dex. You can't write a supplement for just one subfaction in a dex. If these books did not exist, the content in them would simply be lost- it would not exist at all.
The content was supposed to be optional. The first book was optional. This time around though, Be'Lakor's inclusion is problematic as this is the only published source for his rules at the moment.
Why not? There's no rule against it. Certain subfactions often get most of the special characters, for example.
And if the content really *is* so problematic that it couldn't be included in a codex because it's unfair to the other subfactions, it *shouldn't* be released at all, certainly not at this stage of the edition.
Seabass 798109 11115661 wrote:
They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it
There are places in the world, where playing at home is not the majority way of playing. And let me just say it, that store owners are not very fond of people trying to use battle scribe, when they have the books on sale.
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PenitentJake wrote: I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.
First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.
They could have started with different factions though. GW wants a campaign book to sell more models, no problem with that. But why not make the first book with rules for 4 armies that are really in need of help. a GSC, Tau, Knights and lets say IG book would be at least something that could make those armies survive for the next 6-12 months.
Instead they put out books for armies that are either getting a codex, just got a codex or would be getting a codex, if GW didn't have huge delays. It is good that in most cases those books aren't obligatory. And a different way to play armies, opens it up for people who maybe want to play them in a different way.
But picking a few pages of new rules for DG, over GSC or Tau feels kind of a wrong. But maybe it makes the books sell great. I barely understand how GW thinks about their whole sells strategy.
Too many people on this forum play armchair CEO justifying GWs behaviour. I sometimes wonder if GWs behaviour would fail the UKs customer standards. If you weren’t part of the hobby you’d probably just see this as GW breaking its product intentionally to keep you paying, knowing that once customers had invested a decent amount of money they will feel compelled to buy the extra content rather than cut their losses.
The consistency with which GW seem to release addition rules would make you think they are getting it wrong in the first place on purpose or not taking enough care to try and create a functional product at release.
One way of looking at it is when a new battlefield game comes out you can buy the game or the enhanced edition that unlocks all the guns but it’s feels more like if you bought a game and then had to pay for bug fixes and patches.
Unless someone on this forum works for GW our role is the customer and we have the right to expect value for money. If I can get an equivalent index for the fallen for 5 pounds but need to spend 35 pounds to get the index for belakor then that’s not right, just because it wedged in with a load of fluff and other stuff. Especially if GW know that they are releasing the rules in a comprehensive, cheaper, rule book in the future.
What surprises me about the campaign books is that they exist at all.
Or, to put it another way, that they aren't Crusade books. Given the push GW has for Crusade, and that it features in every new Codex, wouldn't it make sense that their narrative-driven campaign expansions are all Crusade expansions?
Seems odd to release campaign books and also Crusade campaign books. I also think that if all the exclusive rules in these books were Crusade rules people wouldn't be so (justifiably) salty about it. Sure as hell wouldn't feel like Day-1 DLC.
Karol wrote: As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GKPA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.
You can play GK without the PA, the added PA rules are an option.
Where does it say optional? It gives you these rules whether you like it or not.
Karol wrote: As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GKPA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.
You can play GK without the PA, the added PA rules are an option.
Where does it say optional? It gives you these rules whether you like it or not.
But you could just play with the codex. It an option to buy the additional rule books. Just as it optional to buy the book with disciples of belakor rules in it. Just depends how badly you want it
Karol wrote: As long as it is just optional stuff, then it is okey. Problems start when you get something like the GKPA book, where the codex alone is just unplayable without it.
You can play GK without the PA, the added PA rules are an option.
Where does it say optional? It gives you these rules whether you like it or not.
But you could just play with the codex. It an option to buy the additional rule books. Just as it optional to buy the book with disciples of belakor rules in it. Just depends how badly you want it
Please stop the white knighting gak, you can no more play GK without PA than you can with the GK psychic discipline ripped out at the back your book, sure, you can just make up your own psychic powers or only use Smite despite having access to more powers, but then you are not playing the real game. The rules of GK are changed in PA, it's not just an optional addition in the same way that Specialist Detachments or the new Rust rules are, it's fundamentally changing the rules of the faction in a non-optional way.
I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all.
When a core playstyle of a superfaction is tied to a campaign book. yeah. no that isn't not mandatory at that stage and i reckon any WB player or invoker , etc would argue you on that point.
The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.
This might surprise you but not all people like piracy, and whilest personally my stance is what comes around goes arround in regards to GW, that is my subjective standard.
If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)
So let's see, this is 1day / pre-order type dlc behaviour of companies like SEGA, EA, etc. It's tieing core mechanics of a whole superfaction to a book that should just baseline be happening without the need for a separate book of cut content. There's a majority of factions still running with 8th edition rules not updated. If you were not a loyalist SM your armies also didn't get updated into 9th era, cue 1 w csm. There's factions like GSC which in essence work on old stipulations and atm basically have a completely disfunctional relationship torwards the 9th rules... yeah i wonder why people have issues with this..
I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.
I don't because GW already has once again proven that they can't maintain their oversight over their rulessources cue book of rust dtde lists rolling over competitive scene and other great rulesjank. Basically GW want's to milk the playerbase via cutting out content and monetising it's base with reccuring spending via selling books piecemeal for factions but hasn't even the capability to not feth up.
You know what would've been more exiting than an campaign book to cut out bel'akor from a daemondex and a core playstyle for chaos?
When GW would've released an FAQ update for CSM and a dex for Daemons that is for once worth two gaks.
PenitentJake wrote: I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.
First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.
If they wait until codexes are out then new edition is pretty much around the corner and codex cycle begins again though.
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Seabass wrote: They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.
You have access to one source that is so easily faked nobody sane would trust just BS. Apart from all the errors it has(I keep running into some ever so often) it can also be deliberately faked. Easily. Doesn't take any real skill at all.
If you trust BS without actual evidence you are saying publicly "it's okay to cheat vs me"
PenitentJake wrote: I feel a twenty page hate thread coming on, so in and out quick on page two.
First and foremost, I agree that the campaign book cycle should not have begun until all the dexes were out. If they had done so, I believe they could have avoided some of that hate.
If they wait until codexes are out then new edition is pretty much around the corner and codex cycle begins again though.
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Seabass wrote: They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.
You have access to one source that is so easily faked nobody sane would trust just BS. Apart from all the errors it has(I keep running into some ever so often) it can also be deliberately faked. Easily. Doesn't take any real skill at all.
If you trust BS without actual evidence you are saying publicly "it's okay to cheat vs me"
But again, that’s a flaw with their system that they perpetuate to get more cash as people who have spent thousands on GW products want to keep their armies relevant compared to the ones already updated for the new edition.
GW should plans the new edition and codex released in advance and make them available around roughly the same time. This is totally possible because they should already be working on the next update/edition. If they are not doing this then they are not testing the product and are making players pay for game corrections. This is why so many factions are OP at release, it’s easier to make them OP, let the community test out the major flaws and then correct. As it is they are making it up as they go along.
GW are a company making big time money out of a small time operation and they need to reinvest some the profit into scaling up their operation.
I’m not against campaign books, I don’t really know what they are there for because I don’t play that way. What I am against is the delay of the baseline rules for the game and all factions and the federation of faction rules across multiple full price products.
No, mrFickle, they releasing all the rules about the same time would spread their earnings problematically. It's better to spread the releases overall for the shareholders for the quartal analysis.
I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.
mrFickle wrote: I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.
yeah but you are not the target audience, this is for "whale hunting" purposes.
Which incidentally also allows them to get more money whilest also having to produce less saving costs that way.
mrFickle wrote: I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.
You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.
Not Online!!! wrote: No, mrFickle, they releasing all the rules about the same time would spread their earnings problematically. It's better to spread the releases overall for the shareholders for the quartal analysis.
Exactly, there’s no consumer consciousness beyond the acknowledgment that enough people will keep buying anything they put out.
I mean after PA I’m surprised the auxiliary books are selling as well as they clearly are.
GW will sell an uneven system then make you pay to even it out or make it uneven in your factions favour which then requires other players to pay to get an even playing field for their faction.
The simple reason that CSM have not got 2 wounds via an FAQ is because GW know that one simple stat will make the new codex fly off the shelves at the speed of light
Seabass wrote: They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it.
You have access to one source that is so easily faked nobody sane would trust just BS. Apart from all the errors it has(I keep running into some ever so often) it can also be deliberately faked. Easily. Doesn't take any real skill at all.
If you trust BS without actual evidence you are saying publicly "it's okay to cheat vs me"
If you are playing in an environment where other players are so likely to cheat on you that you can't trust them if they just bring a BS list, you got a whole different problem than a 60$ expansion book.
But you could just play with the codex. It an option to buy the additional rule books. Just as it optional to buy the book with disciples of belakor rules in it. Just depends how badly you want it
How badly you want it? have you seen the GK codex for 8th ed, and the PA update. Saying you can play GK without PA is like saying you can play marines based on a pre CA/FAQ 8th ed marine codex.
Even if somehow you wanted to skip on the powers, relics and the rest of the stuff, which you do not want to do, there is still the tides and playing without them is a bit hard to pull of condsidering they change the core rules of the GKs.
Plus as a bonus a ton of basic space marine spill over rules from 8th ed, no longer exist in the GKFAQ, so if you want your marines to use bolters and do melee like everyone else and have a rules basis for it you need to somehow buy the book. Thankfuly the army is kind of a bottom tier now, so the problem of actually getting your hands on an OOP book isn't big.
Not Online!!! wrote: No, mrFickle, they releasing all the rules about the same time would spread their earnings problematically. It's better to spread the releases overall for the shareholders for the quartal analysis.
Exactly, there’s no consumer consciousness beyond the acknowledgment that enough people will keep buying anything they put out.
I mean after PA I’m surprised the auxiliary books are selling as well as they clearly are.
GW will sell an uneven system then make you pay to even it out or make it uneven in your factions favour which then requires other players to pay to get an even playing field for their faction.
The simple reason that CSM have not got 2 wounds via an FAQ is because GW know that one simple stat will make the new codex fly off the shelves at the speed of light
Well why wouldn't it if core functionality for CSM armies or chaos is locked behind these books?
If anything chaos players are probably one of the easiest parts of the playerbase to catch with this behaviour, because tendencially we yearn for customizability, which probably is especially for the older players kind of the point of chaos.
Which in turn means that fomo and frustration marketing are some easy tactics to get money period but especially easy to do on that segment of the community.
and what they lose slightly out on sales from those of us that got aware of the BS and call it out is compensated by those that need to have it in tripple slightly differing product .
And you know what, i rekon if they'd release something Lost and the damned style /R&H in regards to rules i'd probably also lap it up aswell, or atleast i don't trust myself to refuse it.
a_typical_hero 798109 11115808 wrote:
If you are playing in an environment where other players are so likely to cheat on you that you can't trust them if they just bring a BS list, you got a whole different problem than a 60$ expansion book.
And ? It is better to expect people to cheat and check for stuff, then read some horror stories about dudes in germany or US cheating in event after event cross multiple games for years.
And this is before any cultural differences kick in, because you maybe will be suprised, but majority of the world only thinks that cheating is bad in two situations . First when someone else does it, and second if you get caught. Any design paradigma based around people have to be nice, friendly and "talk stuff over" is just stupid. Because all it does is to give people with higher standing at the store to force even more stuff on other players, because the rules aren't clear. If the rules are clear, then even if they are the store owner, the rules are writen the same for everyone.
macluvin wrote: Also of note is that BS is more trustworthy than the official GW app anyways...
TBF, WTFgw did with that app... i have no idea... And GW dares to monetise it even though it's still not fixed and still makes them money goes to show what is the target audience of the hobby.
XD I like how they use monthly prize giveaways to make people playtest their listbuilding app. Honestly I feel like if they tried to add too many bells and whistles... Probably should have just hired battle scribe or bought it out to do their list building XD it was also a pain in the butt to use, all other glitches and inaccuracies aside...
But yeah BS is probably the most trustworthy thing you are getting besides PDF rips of the source material or the source material itself.
a_typical_hero 798109 11115808 wrote:
If you are playing in an environment where other players are so likely to cheat on you that you can't trust them if they just bring a BS list, you got a whole different problem than a 60$ expansion book.
And ? It is better to expect people to cheat and check for stuff, then read some horror stories about dudes in germany or US cheating in event after event cross multiple games for years.
And this is before any cultural differences kick in, because you maybe will be suprised, but majority of the world only thinks that cheating is bad in two situations . First when someone else does it, and second if you get caught. Any design paradigma based around people have to be nice, friendly and "talk stuff over" is just stupid. Because all it does is to give people with higher standing at the store to force even more stuff on other players, because the rules aren't clear. If the rules are clear, then even if they are the store owner, the rules are writen the same for everyone.
Karol, the only horror story here is the toxic environment in which you have to play this game. Come to Germany if you get the chance and we can play some friendly Warhammer for a change.
mrFickle wrote: I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.
You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.
Yes it does come with a code.
.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book
mrFickle wrote: I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.
You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.
Yes it does come with a code.
.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book
Right so if I want to have the list in the app I have to buy the book anyway so what is the point of paying the subscription. I thought the subscription provided all rules as they came out. Is it really just the army builder that as far as I can tell is still broken?
mrFickle wrote: I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.
You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.
Yes it does come with a code.
.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book
Right so if I want to have the list in the app I have to buy the book anyway so what is the point of paying the subscription. I thought the subscription provided all rules as they came out. Is it really just the army builder that as far as I can tell is still broken?
/shrug.....I don't use the GW app, can't help you there
mrFickle wrote: I thought the subscription provided all rules as they came out.
You thought wrong. In fact, GW explicitly stated the opposite: That you got all pre-9th stuff with a sub and going forward you'd lose access to things as Codexes were released with the codes you required to get access, sub or not. Once all 9th stuff is out, the Sub is only for access to the army builder.
I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)
I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.
because it's optional for me to buy, but not optional to play against, and frequently these campaign books have the least tested, most broken, dumbest gak in them. Let's look over their 'storied history' in 8th:
We've got:
Vigilus - the joy of triple-fighting Aberrants that got my GSC army nerfed to their current 35% win percentage! yaaaaaaaaay my favorite! Oh also, remember how fun those all-discolord chaos lists were that used the specialist detachment from this book?
PA - oh so many hits, broken Harlequins, broken Custodes, the stupid Drukhari custom traits that are about to get my Covens nerfed to high heaven, exploding ork planes that deal 3mw to a huge chunk of your army and you can do nothing about it, tyranid mutation thignies that they can freely apply to their FW superheavies to give them like 5++ invulns and regeneration on all their 40 wounds for 1cp, exalted demon traits, all the best and smartest and most fun rules of 8th!
New book - Well we're off to a fantastic start with the 40 attack succubus combo that's about to get ANOTHER one of my drukhari subfactions nerfed into the dumpster, amazing start.
I get that people don't like the campaign book system, and that's fine, but I don't mind it and enjoy it. In my view, it's a neat way to keep something moving in the story and giving us something to look forward to as potential additions and changes to the game. My first question is why people feel these were mandatory. They aren't. Not at all. The armies of renown I could see but we all know that information is in Battlescribe, so regardless of whether or not you bought the book, you'll have access to it. If it's the fact that GW is making rules for armies they have just released codexes for, I can completely understand that. I don't agree with that practice, but I guess I'm confused about where the anger is at. Is it that they're adding in different content? Cause I kind of like that part, I just don't like it when it could have been included in the codex that was released a month prior or at the same time. That was rude. There is just so much hatred for GW that I honestly don't fully understand where this current frustration is festering from. (Not sarcasm. I'm asking an honest question here)
I also don't understand why people are upset that Be'lakor's rules are in the new book? I would rather they come out in a campaign book than have to wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be able to play him. I'm working on painting him now, so I'm excited about it, and hopefully, the ability to mix the demons and mortals in the setting will make for some fun and varied lists.
because it's optional for me to buy, but not optional to play against, and frequently these campaign books have the least tested, most broken, dumbest gak in them. Let's look over their 'storied history' in 8th:
We've got:
Vigilus - the joy of triple-fighting Aberrants that got my GSC army nerfed to their current 35% win percentage! yaaaaaaaaay my favorite! Oh also, remember how fun those all-discolord chaos lists were that used the specialist detachment from this book?
PA - oh so many hits, broken Harlequins, broken Custodes, the stupid Drukhari custom traits that are about to get my Covens nerfed to high heaven, exploding ork planes that deal 3mw to a huge chunk of your army and you can do nothing about it, tyranid mutation thignies that they can freely apply to their FW superheavies to give them like 5++ invulns and regeneration on all their 40 wounds for 1cp, exalted demon traits, all the best and smartest and most fun rules of 8th!
New book - Well we're off to a fantastic start with the 40 attack succubus combo that's about to get ANOTHER one of my drukhari subfactions nerfed into the dumpster, amazing start.
What is interesting is your example about exploding Oak planes. We normally talk about buying these books to get extra better rules for your army. But what if you opted not to do this but your opponent brought these rules to the table and said that these are the latest rules so if your plan blows up its tough.
before anyone states that its up to you to agree with your opponent what rules are being used, well it all becomes subjective and frankly tactical. If your army hasn't had their rule updates should you let your opponent use their rule updates and if you refuse to use certain rules, like work planes blowing up well you need to scale all rules back to certain period of rules. Its ridiculous that as a CSM player I should feel compelled to tell a SM player that I won't let them use their latest codex until CSM have had their 9th edition codex release.
currently I'm not playing 40k (just collecting an painting) for many of these reasons, I can't be bothered with the expenditure and effort of chasing rules like an addict chasing a fix. when the game gets to a settled status then I may seek people to play with but is that ever going to happen. Or will I be able to play the army of my choosing without having to spend a small fortunate on books. If I have understood the Disciples of Belakor description nearly 100 pounds of books are required before any models are purchased. No wonder so many people play same marines, its so much more accessible, especially the way the new codex is written. 1 book and you can make up your own army with custom HQ units. Supreme commander Felix of the Space Kittens!
I won't be buying into the additional content this edition. I have the Vigilus books and many of the PA books, I can still use their content (the missions, not the rules) to my heart's content. I also won't be buying as many codexes this time around. The shelf life doesn't justify the expenditure.
I also have the app but getting very annoyed with the lack of updates. How long has the Deathwatch codex been out? The app still doesn't have the option of adding an Indomitor kill team, wtf? Not to mention points being wrong. I'll give it a month or two more, but if nothing changes, time to drop it.
mrFickle wrote: I’d happily pay 5 quid for a small index of the belakor rules or if I knew they be in the app I’d subscribe but no one ever answers that question. But if GW want me to pay 35 quid for a load of content I don’t want and a bit I’d o then they have just lost out on some money.
You do have a reasonable question here - did the Book of Rust come with a code to unlock its content within the 40k App? I don't recall anyone saying either way.
Yes it does come with a code.
.....no it isn't worth the money, but one of my friends plays Admech, and another plays Death Guard, so we split the cost of the book
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years)
By the way do americans say "quid" too like brits do (quid is slang for pound right ?) ? yukishiro1 ?
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years)
By the way do americans say "quid" too like brits do (quid is slang for pound right ?) ? yukishiro1 ?
Didn’t realise that Americans used the term quid but on behalf of the brits feel free to use it as slang for your local currency.
For all you bitching about buying the rules for a model/force you want to run?
1) if you want it bad enough (but not bad enough to buy it), you'll get your hands on the rules somehow. Quit acting like you wont.
2) just wait. Yes, the classic Dakka answer to things.
GW might include Belakor in Codex Demons or Codex CSM later.
You'll just have to gamble & find out.
bullyboy wrote: I won't be buying into the additional content this edition. I have the Vigilus books and many of the PA books, I can still use their content (the missions, not the rules) to my heart's content. I also won't be buying as many codexes this time around. The shelf life doesn't justify the expenditure.
I also have the app but getting very annoyed with the lack of updates. How long has the Deathwatch codex been out? The app still doesn't have the option of adding an Indomitor kill team, wtf? Not to mention points being wrong. I'll give it a month or two more, but if nothing changes, time to drop it.
Yeah, as someone who owns many armies, the expenditure on books frankly just is never worth it. GW has long since crossed the threshold with their books where the number of games I actually get to play with them before they go out of date is on the order of like, 4-5. Would I put 10 bucks into a slot under the table any time I wanted to play a game of 40k, independent of the cost of models? feth no. and is the added enjoyment of the rules being totally different every time I put my models down worth the cost?
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years) yukishiro1 ?
Maybe they they have a moral/religious objection to theft? That's how I'm interpreting 'rules for free online' at least.
Though honestly I wish they'd just release epubs again. I hate having these physical books cluttering around my house.
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years) yukishiro1 ?
Maybe they they have a moral/religious objection to theft? That's how I'm interpreting 'rules for free online' at least.
Though honestly I wish they'd just release epubs again. I hate having these physical books cluttering around my house.
Is it theft ? I spend like 400-800 euros per year on GW plastic crac (I am not even counting second hand purchases here, which are a lot more than that), should I really be paying for rules too ? OK by some moral standards I guess I should...
But honestly I feel fine not paying. Guess I am a godless, "no morals" barbarian. I am the type of idiot who makes GW prosper. They don't need me buying their 6 month lifespan books. I am enough of a sucker as is, I don't need to be more than that.
ccs wrote: For all you bitching about buying the rules for a model/force you want to run?
1) if you want it bad enough (but not bad enough to buy it), you'll get your hands on the rules somehow. Quit acting like you wont.
2) just wait. Yes, the classic Dakka answer to things.
GW might include Belakor in Codex Demons or Codex CSM later.
You'll just have to gamble & find out.
1) that’s an unfair assumption and not true for me. I’d feel bad posting a thread saying I know you paid 35 quid for the book but can you give me the bit I want for free
2) yeah it might, but it might not and that’s what they want you to think cos then you don’t know what you should or shouldn’t buy. I paid 20 quid for the war of the spider to get a a page of rules and one characters stats and the rest of the book was full of armies I’m not interested in. And if those rules are in the new CSM codex then what will the time frame be between those being released? 18-24 months?
Copyright infringement isn't theft; if it was, we wouldn't need a term for copyright infringement, it would just be, well, theft. The fact that we have a different word and a different set of laws for it is incontrovertible evidence that it is not, in fact, theft. That doesn't mean it's ok, but it does mean calling it theft is inaccurate as a matter of law and as a matter of logic.
Theft requires depriving the owner of their property, not just getting access to the property yourself. If you could snap your fingers and make a copy of someone's car, it wouldn't be theft to then drive off in your new copied car.
ccs wrote: For all you bitching about buying the rules for a model/force you want to run?
1) if you want it bad enough (but not bad enough to buy it), you'll get your hands on the rules somehow. Quit acting like you wont.
2) just wait. Yes, the classic Dakka answer to things.
GW might include Belakor in Codex Demons or Codex CSM later.
You'll just have to gamble & find out.
1) that’s an unfair assumption and not true for me. I’d feel bad posting a thread saying I know you paid 35 quid for the book but can you give me the bit I want for free
*What, you don't use Battlescribe?
*You don't watch any youtube games/reviews? Someone there will tell you all about it. Take notes.
*You've never borrowed a friends book or leafed through someones book at the shop (generally requires you to be at least a friendly aquaintence) while watching a game/BSing etc? "hey Bob, can I see your ___ book?
*You don't pay attention in these discussions?
*Hell, BUY the book, copy the pages you need, decide how much those pages are worth to you, & sell the book to the next guy at a reduced cost that reflects how much you'd have paid just for those pages.
mrFickle wrote: 2) yeah it might, but it might not and that’s what they want you to think cos then you don’t know what you should or shouldn’t buy. I paid 20 quid for the war of the spider to get a a page of rules and one characters stats and the rest of the book was full of armies I’m not interested in. And if those rules are in the new CSM codex then what will the time frame be between those being released? 18-24 months?
I normally try to stay positive, and not post complaints to much, but putting out a campaign book for two armies without doing the codex first is BS. Also, the fact that they are even doing the campaign books before updating all the codex is BS. How many campaign books have the put out since 9th started, like 3? That could have been 3 more codex. Frankly I don't even care about getting new miniatures at this rate, I just want my CSM/TS to be on par with imperial marines or at least know when that might actually happen.
Also, the book will most likely require Bel' to be in the army to use the mix daemon/csm rules, which is fine it is his little army section, but having an option for generic commanders (who still worship him) and being allowed to use daemon/csm together would be nice.
What if campaign books just had rules like alternate victory conditions or missions that apply to both players, terrain rules, scenarios, deployments, and other rules that add flavor without significantly benefitting one faction, or player that chooses to use the rules... even if the rules occasionally favor one build or type of army at least both sides benefit. Maybe even some hazards... but not formations or “armies of renown” and extra relics and stratagems for two armies... or technically 3...
I feel bad for the community, I've always been relatively detached, sort of just painting and collecting and rarely playing. Trying to change that hence why I picked up the 8th and 9th ed death guard codex (mostly because I was anxious for the new one).
That being said, I don't really see the need to buy a bunch of books, especially if I will most likely need to consult more avid players about the rules anyway. I can read the rules and buy all the books but ultimately until I play competitively I will probably be unsure of how certain things are done.
And that's ok, this is a game that is supposed to be fun not a college exam.
I think this will inevitably push more people into the 3d printing realm which isn't that big of a deal for GW, but still, not a good sign.
The way I see it, I'll keep abreast of the rules as best I can, but I'm not shelling out hundreds of bucks for them, especially since GW will just come out with another one in a year (if I'm lucky).
As a community, we need to just stick together, make it easier for eachother to read and understand the rules so that we can play the game we love together rather than bicker over wether or not GW is in the right.
Irrelevant, we want to play the game and have fun doing it. Let's come together and make it happen without GW, they'll never help facilitate such joy so we'll have to take it for ourselves.
macluvin wrote: What if campaign books just had rules like alternate victory conditions or missions that apply to both players, terrain rules, scenarios, deployments, and other rules that add flavor without significantly benefitting one faction, or player that chooses to use the rules... even if the rules occasionally favor one build or type of army at least both sides benefit. Maybe even some hazards... but not formations or “armies of renown” and extra relics and stratagems for two armies... or technically 3...
Yes, that is exactly what a "campaign book" should be. Can you please explain this to gw?
Those don't sell. That's why they're sticking a bunch of other things into them too, to try to get more people to buy it, and to try to justify the absurd price tag. Tons of competitive players bought book of rust for the overpowered DE rules, that's a GW executive somewhere justifying their bonus this year.
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years)
By the way do americans say "quid" too like brits do (quid is slang for pound right ?) ? yukishiro1 ?
I think britts and yanks both understand that "quid" and "buck" have basically the same meaning - it's makes us feel we are speaking to each other in a more personal way.
I don't know how they can do "campaing" books as good as the MESBG ones and even the AoS Broken Realms books are reasonable, and then produce such crap for 40K both in the form of PA and now this.
The biggest question. CSM are going to get some rules in this book to work with belokor. Will this also include 2 wound CSM? Because if it does. This book is going to sell to some desperate CSM players and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
It's just so damn shady for GW. Even by their standards.
vict0988 wrote: Please stop the white knighting gak, you can no more play GK without PA than you can with the GK psychic discipline ripped out at the back your book, sure, you can just make up your own psychic powers or only use Smite despite having access to more powers, but then you are not playing the real game. The rules of GK are changed in PA, it's not just an optional addition in the same way that Specialist Detachments or the new Rust rules are, it's fundamentally changing the rules of the faction in a non-optional way.
Actually they can. It may be a less desirable fight, but they can still play. I don't know anyone who refuses to play a game against someone just because they don't have their Psychic Awakening. They might suggest using it, because it will improve their army, but it is not a requirement. If you think it is a requirement, please show me where in the rules it requires opponents to refuse such a game.
Xenomancers wrote: The biggest question. CSM are going to get some rules in this book to work with belokor. Will this also include 2 wound CSM? Because if it does. This book is going to sell to some desperate CSM players and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
It's just so damn shady for GW. Even by their standards.
By the dark gods... they wouldn’t! I mean I want that update but dear gods! Imagine they release the codex 6 months later XD
Xenomancers wrote: The biggest question. CSM are going to get some rules in this book to work with belokor. Will this also include 2 wound CSM? Because if it does. This book is going to sell to some desperate CSM players and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
It's just so damn shady for GW. Even by their standards.
By the dark gods... they wouldn’t! I mean I want that update but dear gods! Imagine they release the codex 6 months later XD
I doubt any CSM stats will be provided we will just be told that you can take units from demons and CSM. It will be a 1-2 pager for this army of renown
Xenomancers wrote: The biggest question. CSM are going to get some rules in this book to work with belokor. Will this also include 2 wound CSM? Because if it does. This book is going to sell to some desperate CSM players and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
It's just so damn shady for GW. Even by their standards.
By the dark gods... they wouldn’t! I mean I want that update but dear gods! Imagine they release the codex 6 months later XD
I doubt any CSM stats will be provided we will just be told that you can take units from demons and CSM. It will be a 1-2 pager for this army of renown
No way of knowing. It is just bad marketing if they don't. Which just goes to show you...GW is just a poorly run company. They can't even be shady correctly. If you want to release a cashgrab...You have to give people a reason to buy it. LOL. This would be the reason.
They actually can't really do that, it would mean you wouldn't be able to run CSM any more without the book - they can't have two sets of warscrolls with different stats and points values. It would mean buying the $60 DLC would be truly required, and even GW probably realizes what a poopstorm that would be.
xeen wrote: Also, the fact that they are even doing the campaign books before updating all the codex is BS. How many campaign books have the put out since 9th started, like 3? That could have been 3 more codex.
From what I can see on the GW webstore, one released, one announced (War Zone Charadon books 1 & 2).
There have also been two Crusade scenario packs (Beyond the Veil, Plague Purge), but I don't tend to hear people talking about those.
yukishiro1 wrote: They actually can't really do that, it would mean you wouldn't be able to run CSM any more without the book - they can't have two sets of warscrolls with different stats and points values. It would mean buying the $60 DLC would be truly required, and even GW probably realizes what a poopstorm that would be.
New rules override old ones. That is very simple to do isn't it? All they have to do is include a datasheet with a points value on any updated units. Could do the whole csm codex on a single page with about 30 miutes of work...
The whole idea is forcing people to buy the book. If you cant play CSM without the book CSM players will buy it.
yukishiro1 wrote: They actually can't really do that, it would mean you wouldn't be able to run CSM any more without the book - they can't have two sets of warscrolls with different stats and points values. It would mean buying the $60 DLC would be truly required, and even GW probably realizes what a poopstorm that would be.
New rules override old ones. That is very simple to do isn't it? All they have to do is include a datasheet with a points value on any updated units. Could do the whole csm codex on a single page with about 30 miutes of work...
The whole idea is forcing people to buy the book. If you cant play CSM without the book CSM players will buy it.
You can fit. Every infantry datasheet. In the CSM codex. With points. And options. On. One. Page.
Rihgu wrote: Well, this campaign book will certainly release a datasheet for Be'lakor, which is currently printed in Codex: Chaos Daemons.
Yeah, but that's a new model. The old model is being discontinued, you can't run the old version any more period once the new one comes out.
I mean yes they could discontinue every datasheet in the CSM codex and replace it with a $60 DLC that isn't even the codex that you now are required to buy if you want to continue to play CSM. But that's the point: not even GW is dumb enough to think that wouldn't generate massive bad will.
I wonder if the rules for the new gaunts ghosts unit will be in here, I am assuming that those I’ll be a HQ plus a squad and therefore we will get an army of renown index for running a ghosts list.
Unless it’s a precursor to the IG codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Copyright infringement isn't theft; if it was, we wouldn't need a term for copyright infringement, it would just be, well, theft. The fact that we have a different word and a different set of laws for it is incontrovertible evidence that it is not, in fact, theft. That doesn't mean it's ok, but it does mean calling it theft is inaccurate as a matter of law and as a matter of logic.
Theft requires depriving the owner of their property, not just getting access to the property yourself. If you could snap your fingers and make a copy of someone's car, it wouldn't be theft to then drive off in your new copied car.
Indeed use of intellectual property without consent of the copyright owner is theft. Copying music cd’s for example.
The loss can be demonstrated in many ways, loss of control, loss of reputation, loss of revenue.
I don’t believe there is a specific crime called theft but it is an umbrella term for a multitude of crimes that describe different ways to commit theft. Burglary, theft by finding, grand larceny, fraud, copyright infringement and so on.
This is why you should read the terms and conditions before clicking “I have read the terms and conditions”
yukishiro1 wrote: They actually can't really do that, it would mean you wouldn't be able to run CSM any more without the book - they can't have two sets of warscrolls with different stats and points values. It would mean buying the $60 DLC would be truly required, and even GW probably realizes what a poopstorm that would be.
New rules override old ones. That is very simple to do isn't it? All they have to do is include a datasheet with a points value on any updated units. Could do the whole csm codex on a single page with about 30 miutes of work...
The whole idea is forcing people to buy the book. If you cant play CSM without the book CSM players will buy it.
You can fit. Every infantry datasheet. In the CSM codex. With points. And options. On. One. Page.
Should I buy new reading glasses?
Well if they use their current format which wastes a lot of space it will take approximately 3 pages for the space marine codex entries. CSM has a similar but smaller number of units. If it was just an addendum on what changed. 1 page easy. Datasheets take up more space - CSM and Terminators for sure need new datasheets - probably as well for every cult marine /raptors/ havocs / ect. 4 Pages Could get the job done. A bridge to the new codex.
xeen wrote: I normally try to stay positive, and not post complaints to much, but putting out a campaign book for two armies without doing the codex first is BS. Also, the fact that they are even doing the campaign books before updating all the codex is BS. How many campaign books have the put out since 9th started, like 3? That could have been 3 more codex. Frankly I don't even care about getting new miniatures at this rate, I just want my CSM/TS to be on par with imperial marines or at least know when that might actually happen.
Also, the book will most likely require Bel' to be in the army to use the mix daemon/csm rules, which is fine it is his little army section, but having an option for generic commanders (who still worship him) and being allowed to use daemon/csm together would be nice.
You're counting mission packs as campaign books. They aren't.
GW has released one campaign book for 9th. They previewed a second yesterday.
As I said before, I too believe it would have been better to release all the codexes first. Once they are all out, campaign books forever- no new editions. After 5-10 years, enough new units have been released via Campaign books that they can print a V2 dex without worrying about a new edition. This was the way forward, and likely the only way to keep me in the game. If they reset the edition, I'm done.
8th was good for me because it brought back two armies and some other old legacies like Zoats, Ambulls and Rogue Traders. I almost didn't bite on 9th, but Crusade was enough of a hook to make me double down. Yes, I love Crusade that much. But a 10th edition isn't going to fly for me; not only would they be blowing up the game to re-invent the wheel for the 10th time. they'd be blowing up all the Crusade content which was my incentive to hang around for 9th.
yukishiro1 wrote: They actually can't really do that, it would mean you wouldn't be able to run CSM any more without the book - they can't have two sets of warscrolls with different stats and points values. It would mean buying the $60 DLC would be truly required, and even GW probably realizes what a poopstorm that would be.
New rules override old ones. That is very simple to do isn't it? All they have to do is include a datasheet with a points value on any updated units. Could do the whole csm codex on a single page with about 30 miutes of work...
The whole idea is forcing people to buy the book. If you cant play CSM without the book CSM players will buy it.
You can fit. Every infantry datasheet. In the CSM codex. With points. And options. On. One. Page.
Should I buy new reading glasses?
Nah, you just need a multi-story printer and 8'x11' paper (feet, not inches, for anyone who doesn't use our funky measurement shorthand).
Indeed use of intellectual property without consent of the copyright owner is theft. Copying music cd’s for example.
The loss can be demonstrated in many ways, loss of control, loss of reputation, loss of revenue.
I don’t believe there is a specific crime called theft but it is an umbrella term for a multitude of crimes that describe different ways to commit theft. Burglary, theft by finding, grand larceny, fraud, copyright infringement and so on.
This is why you should read the terms and conditions before clicking “I have read the terms and conditions”
Verifiably, objectively wrong (in the legal systems I am familiar with - I don't know, maybe there is some obscure jurisdiction that defines theft differently than normal). Copyright infringement is not theft, for the reasons I've already gone over: theft requires depriving the owner of the property that is being stolen, and copyright infringement does not do that - if it did, it would be theft instead, and we wouldn't need laws against copyright infringement. If you want to be wrong about this that's your choice, but this is not something that can be reasonably debated. There is an objective answer, just like there is an objective answer to whether 2+2 =4. As a matter of law, copyright infringement is not theft.
I realize this is somewhat off the main topic, so I don't want to bog the thread down with it further - I just brought it up because it really grinds my gears every time I see someone repeat this particular inaccurate claim.
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand the concept of campaign books in the first place. Their release cycle is already very clogged from Covid and other events and they're shelling out books with likely short-lived content, instead of more codices. By the time I can play again at a GW store in my country I'm sure the campaign books will be deprecated or used in Narrative only or something, it's literally lost money.
I just can't understand the concept of buying a campaign book, which will have a one year life span and cost 25-35 quid. I am amazed GW sell enough of these things. Are the people who buy these things the kind of people who simply can't wait a week to get the rules for free online ? I am not really judging, I also happen to throw money away on silly things, just not on GW books (aside from a tyranid or ork codex here and there over the years)
By the way do americans say "quid" too like brits do (quid is slang for pound right ?) ? yukishiro1 ?
I think britts and yanks both understand that "quid" and "buck" have basically the same meaning - it's makes us feel we are speaking to each other in a more personal way.
From "quid pro quo" and "sawbuck" colloquially and respectively, innit?
Campaigns are a type of narrative gaming, and GW chose to make Crusade their method of narrative gaming in 9th. As such, all campaign books for 9th should be Crusade books. There shouldn't be Crusade campaign books and non-Crusade campaign books.
Kanluwen wrote: It's fairly clear that the codices were intended to be out by now. Who knows what screwed things up.
Obviously the plan was not to have all the codexes out before these DLC rules started coming out, so I don't see any relevance at all. The plan has clearly been that these books come out at roughly the same time as the codexes the rules correspond to.
mrFickle wrote: I wonder if the rules for the new gaunts ghosts unit will be in here, I am assuming that those I’ll be a HQ plus a squad and therefore we will get an army of renown index for running a ghosts list.
The Ghosts are a Black Library release, not a "real" 40K release. Also,the Ghosts(at least those we know and love and that are in the squad being released, there potentially may be some sort of Tanith 1st still running around) are dead before M42. The Sabbat Crusade takes place in 755-791.M41, 200+ years before the 13th Black Crusade.
mrFickle wrote: I wonder if the rules for the new gaunts ghosts unit will be in here, I am assuming that those I’ll be a HQ plus a squad and therefore we will get an army of renown index for running a ghosts list.
The Ghosts are a Black Library release, not a "real" 40K release. Also,the Ghosts(at least those we know and love and that are in the squad being released, there potentially may be some sort of Tanith 1st still running around) are dead before M42. The Sabbat Crusade takes place in 755-791.M41, 200+ years before the 13th Black Crusade.
So IG players have been desperate for new models for ages and they finally release some great new models and they aren’t even a codex unit, they are just eye candy, nice
mrFickle wrote: I wonder if the rules for the new gaunts ghosts unit will be in here, I am assuming that those I’ll be a HQ plus a squad and therefore we will get an army of renown index for running a ghosts list.
The Ghosts are a Black Library release, not a "real" 40K release. Also,the Ghosts(at least those we know and love and that are in the squad being released, there potentially may be some sort of Tanith 1st still running around) are dead before M42. The Sabbat Crusade takes place in 755-791.M41, 200+ years before the 13th Black Crusade.
So IG players have been desperate for new models for ages and they finally release some great new models and they aren’t even a codex unit, they are just eye candy, nice
New models are new models. There's nothing special about the couple of Catachans they released last year - except their price tags....
And I assure you I'll have no problem using these Tanith as _______. They will join my existing Tanith. And if they come with their own rules? Bonus! If there's Tanith in the eventual Guard codex? Or even a mix & match regiment system will do as odds are it'll have some stealthy option.
That'll depend on production lead times and lingering effects. Vaccine program continuing will help to mitigate the COVID side of things eventually; Brexit is probably more of an issue with exports to Europe than otherwise; and the UK shutdown only started to lift two or three weeks ago.
The bigger question will be whether or not we end up having to go for another lockdown because people are idiots...
Dysartes wrote: A datasheet for the Tanith was mentioned alongside the LE version of "The Vincula Insurgency" - though I'd be asking where else we'll see it printed.
That'll depend on production lead times and lingering effects. Vaccine program continuing will help to mitigate the COVID side of things eventually; Brexit is probably more of an issue with exports to Europe than otherwise; and the UK shutdown only started to lift two or three weeks ago.
The bigger question will be whether or not we end up having to go for another lockdown because people are idiots...
I don’t quite see how covid has affected GW greatly. model sculpting, codex writing, PR can all be done remotely. Only the factory work would be difficult but the rules have always stated that if you can’t work from home then you can go to the office. Unless GW asked its staff not to go to the factory for health reasons, which Id respect.
But that would only create a backlog of physical production and they have been producing plastic so I’m just not convinced that we’d be much further along without the pandemic. Also we’ve all had more money and time to invest in the hobby.
Brexit, well that only affects trade in and out of the EU, so there might have been some delivery delays but as all production is in the UK there nothing about brexit that should have stopped GW achieving anything
I thought the Pariah Nexus supplement released alongside the necrons' codex was a good idea. It included a few optional rules for crusade games, background and some missions. I'll certainly be using all of them when we can have again in a few weeks.
That book didn't include data sheets or formations. However these new supplements are heading back to the psychic awakening MO and I don't want to go there. I'll buy the admech book when it comes out but as an admech, Daemon and Knight player I'm steering clear of these books.
I'm also frankly sick of the compulsion for story line progression. By all means tell me where the hot zones are where I can set a cool campaign but I don't need to know the canon outcome. I'm fighting the battles let me decide what happened.
Dysartes wrote: A datasheet for the Tanith was mentioned alongside the LE version of "The Vincula Insurgency" - though I'd be asking where else we'll see it printed.
That'll depend on production lead times and lingering effects. Vaccine program continuing will help to mitigate the COVID side of things eventually; Brexit is probably more of an issue with exports to Europe than otherwise; and the UK shutdown only started to lift two or three weeks ago.
The bigger question will be whether or not we end up having to go for another lockdown because people are idiots...
I don’t quite see how covid has affected GW greatly. model sculpting, codex writing, PR can all be done remotely. Only the factory work would be difficult but the rules have always stated that if you can’t work from home then you can go to the office. Unless GW asked its staff not to go to the factory for health reasons, which Id respect.
The ability to collaborate is greatly affected. Playtesting becomes harder, too.
Deadalus come on dude. They don't playtest. Collaboration? I guess the pubs are closed so they can't get smashed and come up with bad ideas...If anything this should help with making a sober ruleset.
Xenomancers wrote:Deadalus come on dude. They don't playtest. Collaboration? I guess the pubs are closed so they can't get smashed and come up with bad ideas...If anything this should help with making a sober ruleset.
Yeah, after all, the monkeys need their dart board, and they can't set one up to be done remotely.
Xenomancers wrote:Deadalus come on dude. They don't playtest. Collaboration? I guess the pubs are closed so they can't get smashed and come up with bad ideas...If anything this should help with making a sober ruleset.
Yeah, after all, the monkeys need their dart board, and they can't set one up to be done remotely.
They should have delayed Charadon, period. No one wants Day 1 DLC (unless it's busted and you're a comp player, I guess). Admech book isn't even out and you're throwing out additional content. If the codexes were delayed for Covid, Brexit, whatever, then delay Charadon too until you catch up.
There are so many armies lacking in 9th right now, but because they have new sisters models to sell, that codex is up soon (and is one of the few codexes that really didn't need an update yet). Very frustrating. The only reason why the pushback from the community is so mild is because most people are not really playing much, so it's more of a case of "who cares what they release, can't play anyway".
Tau, GSC, Chaos marines, Guard, Craftworlds (although I don't want that released unless with a substantial co-release of new miniatures) all need a new codex over a dumb campaign book adding additional rules. Crusade books, sure.....go to town with those alongside releases, but not the Charadon style books. Bloat for the Bloat God.
You guys act like there are no Russian websites that will have full high res copies for download within 24 hours of release. But I'm betting enough players will be slavering at the local GW store on release day to justify the practice in perpetuity. I mean the sheer number of Youtuber influencers that need to post their "special in depth analysis" within 10 hours of release is at least 25% of the predicted market.
I'm sure Auspex Tactics will have a video entitled "Which Belacor lists are better" withing 5 hours, that spans exactly 31 minutes (gotta get those sweet youtube algorithm dollars) and says exactly nothing.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I'm sure Auspex Tactics will have a video entitled "Which Belacor lists are better" withing 5 hours, that spans exactly 31 minutes (gotta get those sweet youtube algorithm dollars) and says exactly nothing.
You, sir madam or other, are a cynic after my own heart.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: You guys act like there are no Russian websites that will have full high res copies for download within 24 hours of release. But I'm betting enough players will be slavering at the local GW store on release day to justify the practice in perpetuity. I mean the sheer number of Youtuber influencers that need to post their "special in depth analysis" within 10 hours of release is at least 25% of the predicted market.
I'm sure Auspex Tactics will have a video entitled "Which Belacor lists are better" withing 5 hours, that spans exactly 31 minutes (gotta get those sweet youtube algorithm dollars) and says exactly nothing.
What I hate about new model releases is they amount fo people on Instagram that post the GW image of the new model as if they are giving you the news first hand and that you haven’t already seen these new models 1000 times
Imagine even trying to defending this absolute junk and justifying consooming a product which offers at most, 3 pages of mediocre rules content and '''''lore''''' that advances the story that most likely is summarised by "and then the bad guy continues his evil scheme, edging ever closer after being fought to another draw".
Campaign books are crap. They're overcosted junk offering rules that tend to either be incredibly bad or in some incredibly niche way, incredibly overpowered. Most of the 40k lore can be read online for free (and much of it now is just repetitive junk which contradicts itself). I can't wait to learn how Be'lakor (a character who should've never been ported to 40k in the first place, but GW needed more money) enacts a master plan to do nothing and continues his nefarious schemes that go nowhere.
They're also incredibly short lived. None of the content in them feels special (do people even play the missions these offer?)
Xenomancers wrote:Deadalus come on dude. They don't playtest. Collaboration? I guess the pubs are closed so they can't get smashed and come up with bad ideas...If anything this should help with making a sober ruleset.
Yeah, after all, the monkeys need their dart board, and they can't set one up to be done remotely.
There's gotta be a dartboard on TTS....
But it takes time to train a dartboard monkey to be a mouse monkey, and then there's setting up the room to feel like a bar so the monkey knows it's supposed to be throwing darts. All in all, just a huge mess.
bullyboy wrote: They should have delayed Charadon, period. No one wants Day 1 DLC (unless it's busted and you're a comp player, I guess).
Competitive players aren't the ones that defend busted units and rules, just remember that.
They'll sure make use of them as long as they last though....
And complain when it gets nerfed into the ground...
And...
And..
And.
But funnily enuff they don't complain when something is average. Cuz it is trash and you're an idiot for putting it in your list.
Nah, they do it because actually fixing something takes too much work and effort. So it is easier to do a "fix" of something that ends with us never seeing a castellan ever again.
Racerguy180 wrote: They're the only ones complaining and purposefully abusing them with "data" to back it up...so stands to reason.
Okey. Then explain the nerfs that happened to GK in 8th ed. GK were one of the bottom tier armies, but through out 8th ed it even became a meme that every FAQ batch there are going to be nerfs for them in it, or removal of rules and units.
I think SOB, Orks and AdMech are first though. So unless they pick up the release scheduled, it's at least August before 1kSons. 'Soon' is relative here.
Racerguy180 wrote: And why do they do that...cuz of WAACholes
And to get you to buy the next thing...ad nauseum ad infinitum
Not quite. They'll do it because of Whales, but not WAACholes (though, it may be hard to tell the difference). WAACholes were the reason GW shut down their forums due to toxicity. Whales will just move on.
Not saying people can't be a mix of them, but a WAAChole is someone who won't (or can't) move on, and doesn't always rely on the new choices to win (like bad measuring, bad rules lawyering, etc). Some Whales are just pokemon collectors, always collecting the new shiny or just ones who want to be completionist.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Gk got pre-nerfed I am betting, because GW knew what they intended to do with them would make them broken without those nerfs.
And that is why they let other armies smite spam? Plus we are talking here about the GW that thought that letting dark reaper proc extra shots from DE flock bases was an okey idea. Plus later on they did make an all psyker army with regular smite, and 1ksons were not breaking the game.
It looks like Thousand Sons are going to the next Chaos army, which I found kind of surprising. I fully expected Daemons or Vanilla CSM to come next
Really curious to see how this army of renown will interact with the Daemon and Vanilla dex.
The same way DG does. Would make sense if it was done the same way.