Fluff - No. A single Marine can take out entire squads of the Druks with just a combat knife (Brothers of the snake) and Custodes can take out whole squads of Marines.
Fluff - No. A single Marine can take out entire squads of the Druks with just a combat knife (Brothers of the snake) and Custodes can take out whole squads of Marines.
Tabletop she would wreck his gak.
I thought Lelith stomped several marines lore-wise, and defeated a sm champion once. I still don’t know the answer, but she’s not your average druks.
Barring someone like Valdor, I would say yes. She is known as one of THE consummate duelists in Drukhari society, where arena fighting against the deadliest combatants is one of their specialties. It says something that she only uses simple knives and no combat drugs and yet is still able to defeat power armoured foes. She's up there with Skulltaker and other top tier duelists, if it's just your bog standard custode she can definitely kill them.
Fluff is inconsistent is really the best we can say. Yes she's taken down Marines outside their power armor, without their weapons, but I really doubt they have ever "Caught" a Custodian before. It wasn't until the last 100 years they even left Terra, so it's practically impossible that a raiding party somehow "kidnaped" one.
Let alone a fully equipped one with their armor on. Remember, these guys have taken down WAY bigger threats single handidly than Lelith. Between Holding back hordes of Blood letters on Terra, or stopping Halequin Death Jesters, I would actually say a Death Jester is superior to a Lelith. But then again, The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say. One day they are 1v1ing a Blood thirster/DP, and the next day they are almost killed by a Primaris Marine.
What would likely happen is Marbo would rocket down from Orbit, and Shout them both to death, and then fly off after Kamehameha-ing the entire planet.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Fluff is inconsistent is really the best we can say. Yes she's taken down Marines outside their power armor, without their weapons, but I really doubt they have ever "Caught" a Custodian before. It wasn't until the last 100 years they even left Terra, so it's practically impossible that a raiding party somehow "kidnaped" one.
Let alone a fully equipped one with their armor on. Remember, these guys have taken down WAY bigger threats single handidly than Lelith. Between Holding back hordes of Blood letters on Terra, or stopping Halequin Death Jesters, I would actually say a Death Jester is superior to a Lelith. But then again, The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say. One day they are 1v1ing a Blood thirster/DP, and the next day they are almost killed by a Primaris Marine.
What would likely happen is Marbo would rocket down from Orbit, and Shout them both to death, and then fly off after Kamehameha-ing the entire planet.
Nah, you missed my point there, she actually cut through marine armor in the Silent Hunter (including a librarian’s wrist), and made those look like butter with her knives.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Fluff is inconsistent is really the best we can say. Yes she's taken down Marines outside their power armor, without their weapons, but I really doubt they have ever "Caught" a Custodian before. It wasn't until the last 100 years they even left Terra, so it's practically impossible that a raiding party somehow "kidnaped" one.
Let alone a fully equipped one with their armor on. Remember, these guys have taken down WAY bigger threats single handidly than Lelith. Between Holding back hordes of Blood letters on Terra, or stopping Halequin Death Jesters, I would actually say a Death Jester is superior to a Lelith. But then again, The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say. One day they are 1v1ing a Blood thirster/DP, and the next day they are almost killed by a Primaris Marine.
What would likely happen is Marbo would rocket down from Orbit, and Shout them both to death, and then fly off after Kamehameha-ing the entire planet.
I agree that GW fluff is inconsistent in many cases, but given that in the Beast Arises series, a small group of Harlequins are able to infiltrate the Imperial Palace and kill not only Lucifer Blacks guarding the area but also dozens of Custodes on their own. Meanwhile Lelith only felt challenged by the prospect of facing a Grand Harlequin, basically the Chapter Master or Phoenix Lord equivalent of Harlies, it kinda shows that she is likely more than capable of handling the average Custode if it needed one of the head honchos of the Harlequins to give her unease.
Death Jesters would NOT be anywhere close to be better than Lelith in a duel, they are ranged specialists and basically would have the same baseline CC ability as a Troupe Player.
Lelith has a LOT of feats by herself and she's lived for as long or longer than most Custodes in terms of fighting experience, her whole thing is being pretty much almost untouchable by most opponents. So only Valdor/Captain-General equivalents for Custodes could likely match her.
Greatest duelist/gladiator of a race with an entire subculture of duelists/gladiators who has killed everything she's fought in said gladiatorial arenas and is now allied to a faction of Aeldari that can resurrect the dead. I think Lelith would do just fine.
Fluff - No. A single Marine can take out entire squads of the Druks with just a combat knife (Brothers of the snake) and Custodes can take out whole squads of Marines.
Tabletop she would wreck his gak.
It's the 40k Background forum. Why would it be tabletop?
Yes she could do it. Yes, the custodes are the best fighters the imperium of man has, and they would wreck most other factions characters gak in melee, but lelith is an anomaly. She is THE perfect duelist and has probably killed basically anything that moves in the galaxy upon the sands of the arena in commoragh.
So long story short, against a "normal" custodian, it might take her just a bit longer than usual to dismantle her prey, but she'd be able to do it.
Against Trajann Valoris, the current captain General? Since in the fluff he is described as the deadliest fighter within the whole imperium (not considering guilliman)....I think it would be a very close fight and could go either way.
Against Constantin Valdor the very first captain general? No chance, Valdor would stomp her. Then again he'd mop the floor with most things except primarchs and greater demons.
Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.
It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.
It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.
No. Valerian couldn't take guilliman. The excerpt you mean is probably him facing off against asterion moloc, chapter master of the minotaurs.
Valerian also didn't kill a bloodthirster in single combat like you insinuated, but he had help from aleya and a squad of grey knights.
Also there are shades even within the custodes, not everything is black and white. What I mean by that is, there are deadlier and less deadly custodians. Trajann Valoris is deadlier than Valerian for example, probably by quite a bit. And guilliman is on another level entirely simply by virtue of being a primarch.
Also lelith isn't just a dark eldar gladiator....she is THE dark eldar gladiator, she's arguably the most naturally skilled fighter in all of 40k so yeah....she can take a standard custodian, after probably a bit more struggle than her usual prey.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.
It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.
The Custodes have colossal egos. They hate Astartes because the Heresy and they hate the Primarchs because the Heresy. They think they are better than literally everyone else because they are peak humanity. They are the 40k personification of "While you did X, I studied the blade".
I would have to read WotT to find that exact passage but I'm fairly certain it isn't in there.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say.
The sisters and custodes never fought. The custodes stayed out of fighting initially, and when they decided that it was time to end it they walked directly to the inner chamber without firing a shot (via secret passages), put down their weapons, and talked.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The sisters fought the Custodes to a standstill in the palace during the days of Blood, so who can say.
The sisters and custodes never fought. The custodes stayed out of fighting initially, and when they decided that it was time to end it they walked directly to the inner chamber without firing a shot (via secret passages), put down their weapons, and talked.
You’re talking about the plot concerning the end of Goge Vandire, right?
Back to the topic, how would Hesperax fare against a custodes?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Since we are going purely by fluff, isn't there a chapter where in the Watchers of the Throne when Captain Valarian meets Guilleman and does his Custodes (I need to know how to kill you when I meet you) thing, and decides that he could beat Guilliman, but it would take all his effort and skill? He's incapable of boasting, and later he kills a Blood Thirster. By all intents and Purposes, plot armor aside, Valarian is a standard Custodian of the Hectarian (SP?) Guard. If he is baseline, and he "Could" kill Gman, doesn't that Elevate Custodes basically to Primarch levels? Also, he does the same thing with Trajaan and Gman, and comes to basically the same conclusion, only more favored towards Trajaan.
It all comes down to plot armor, and I say anything made to be a little golden Emperor is better than a Dark Elf Gladiator. It's like when Kharn kills Krole. It would be over before he knew it had happened.
The Custodes have colossal egos. They hate Astartes because the Heresy and they hate the Primarchs because the Heresy. They think they are better than literally everyone else because they are peak humanity. They are the 40k personification of "While you did X, I studied the blade".
I would have to read WotT to find that exact passage but I'm fairly certain it isn't in there.
True but they are not stupid. Fezzik is mixing up excerpts. In no recent publication, and certainly not in one written by Chris wraight did a single custodes claim to be able to take on guilliman alone.
Do they believe that they can generally, as a group, end guilliman of they need to? Yes, definitely
Considering Lelith defeated one of the greatest duelist of the Adeptus Astartes history, in full gear and armed with a relic blade, I believe she can take on a Custodes who, while significantly better than Space Marines, are still comparable. It would certainly be good fight though it would take a Custodian Captain to truly challenge her to her limits. Duels are basically Lelith's bread and butter. On a battlefield, she is much more vulnerable. One mistep and a guardsmen can kill her with ease. The easiest way to kill is simply to take her by surprise or overwhelm her with threats. Unlike a Custodian, a couple of well placed guards in ambush could kill her, while they would need a small miracle to kill a superhuman with a an armor comparable to that of a tank.
Sweet sugar snacks of Shaimesh I certainly hope so! Lelith is possibly the most talented melee combatant among the eldar. Her competition for that title mostly consist of phoenix lord demigods. She has special rules stemming from just how much better she is than everyone else. She had WS 9 or 10 back when that was a thing meaning the only things approaching her talent were avatars of gods of war and perfection. If someone with that resume can't defeat a single one of the hundreds (thousands?) of golden boys that casually occupy the troop slot of their own faction... Well, that would make it pretty hard to ever get excited about any eldar's melee prowess ever again.
As for how the fight would look... The custodes would swing his weapon around a lot. Lelith, being less physically strong, would probably dodge a lot, land a bunch of seemingly minor cuts, and eventually the custodes would realize none of his ligaments are connected to the important bits any more. So she'd beat him the same way she beats most people, basically. It might just take a little longer.
Thairne wrote: Could she? Yeah, probably.
Will she? Yeah, likely.
For one simple reason - Custodes are the perfect target to worf. And its already starting to happen, especially if ADB is the author.
So Custodes are going to be like the avatar of khaine, just for xenos factions? I wouldn't put it past BL authors to treat the golden boys in a similar fashion. Lelith shoud be able to do it though. Where I draw the line if she somehow starts to cut her way through whole squads of custodes, that's just not going to happen, but sadly BL author often lack nuance in that regard.
Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.
If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.
Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.
If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.
Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.
I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.
If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.
Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.
I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.
If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.
Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.
I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah, I'm just poking over the stats of Lelith... They do NOT represent her well, at all.
If Lelith fights a 10-man squad of Intercessors, using her Master Succubus ability to avoid any retaliation in the round she fights and fights twice, she kills four MEQ.
If those six remaining Intercessors shoot her and charge her, they'll usually kill her. Three in four times, and that's with Bolt Rifles. Switch to AutoBolt, and it's just shy of 90% odds.
Oh, and it takes her two full rounds to kill a single Custodian Guard. Three, if he has a Storm Shield.
I'm not talking about tabletop, rather, the lore (fluff).
I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.
It might sound weird, but honestly I've never really played 40k of any sorts, be it tabletop or video games (sadly, it's not quite popular in Asian countries, with the exception being Korea, but's that's not big news anyways)... hence sometimes I would miss a whole ton of references when discussing with you guys. Now, back to the topic, despite that 40k has its own inconsistent power levels, is it true that tabletop and lore often contradict each other when coming down to characters' performance against others?
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epronovost wrote: Considering Lelith defeated one of the greatest duelist of the Adeptus Astartes history, in full gear and armed with a relic blade, I believe she can take on a Custodes who, while significantly better than Space Marines, are still comparable. It would certainly be good fight though it would take a Custodian Captain to truly challenge her to her limits. Duels are basically Lelith's bread and butter. On a battlefield, she is much more vulnerable. One mistep and a guardsmen can kill her with ease. The easiest way to kill is simply to take her by surprise or overwhelm her with threats. Unlike a Custodian, a couple of well placed guards in ambush could kill her, while they would need a small miracle to kill a superhuman with a an armor comparable to that of a tank.
Was Cadulon fully armed, or did the archon stripped him of his armor?
The differences between lore and tabletop performance is often vast, sometimes due to writers not knowing the game rules and sometimes vice versa, Lelith has passable rules but currently trumped by her Succubus minions due to a combo of rules, but hey least shes not an Avatar of Khaine (a Greater Demon who gets thumped repeatedly in lore by any Iom character needed to do an awesome fight thing)
The differences between lore and tabletop performance is often vast, sometimes due to writers not knowing the game rules and sometimes vice versa, Lelith has passable rules but currently trumped by her Succubus minions due to a combo of rules, but hey least shes not an Avatar of Khaine (a Greater Demon who gets thumped repeatedly in lore by any Iom character needed to do an awesome fight thing)
Ahh, the legendary avatar, I literally loled every time when an avatar of Khaine makes its appearance. Eldar gods and their shard suck so much, it's almost hilarious. Regarding xeno deities though, at least the necrons' pokemons are normally potent, except for that one time one of those "pokemons" faced Cato.
I just read a 40k novel about the custodes, "master of mankind', and based on that a typical custodes should be able top send hesperax flying so hard she becomes a smear of shattered bones and splattered flesh on the first obstacle she hits simply by letting a good fart in her general direction.
Ok, how about a more interesting fight then? Cain with his blank adjudant vs Lelith? Cain has been said to be one of the greatest swordsmen in the imperium. He single handidly took down an ork warboss, and a Black Legion Champion, in single combat, with just a chain sword. Cain has the greatest plot armor in the history of BL.
In terms of what it would look like (pure fluff, choreographer's eye):
- Normally, Lelith uses her skill not just to kill, but to make it look good; in this fight, she would need all her wits, so "showmanship" is not an issue
- Lelith would land 3-4 hits per custodes hit, and they would all be perfectly placed and efficient; however, the custodes would hardly notice
- when the custodes hits back, Lelith will turn with the blow, and it will be the only thing that prevents him from gutting her; even imperfectly landed blows will do more damage to her than any one of ther blows would do to him
- when the custode misses Leltith, hey likely causes collateral damage to the environment; both fighters will seek to use this collateral damage to their advantage
- eventually, Lelith will start using more acrobatics to get behind/ inside the guard of the custode
- once Lelith carves a break in the armour, it starts to go downhill
- eventually, enough blows will get through to drop the custode, but Lelith isn't walking away unharmed
Thing is, if the Custodian lands a single blow, it would be a "perfect" strike, and likely judged to be JUST enough strength to kill in the shortest order possible. This is the problem with the fluff. If both can be "Perfect fighters" all we have to go off of is strength, and The Custodes win that battle by a huge margin.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Thing is, if the Custodian lands a single blow, it would be a "perfect" strike, and likely judged to be JUST enough strength to kill in the shortest order possible. This is the problem with the fluff. If both can be "Perfect fighters" all we have to go off of is strength, and The Custodes win that battle by a huge margin.
So, are you saying that a normal custodes >> Hesperax? Also, if we’re going purely by fluff, which level would you place her, clearly she should be able to top moth marines.
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Matt Swain wrote: I just read a 40k novel about the custodes, "master of mankind', and based on that a typical custodes should be able top send hesperax flying so hard she becomes a smear of shattered bones and splattered flesh on the first obstacle she hits simply by letting a good fart in her general direction.
Ah, so does that make Drazhar (who killed 3 custodes) >>> Hesperax?
So Any Custodian, named or otherwise, is greater than ANY non-Chaos Space Marine. Any Captain or even Chapter Master is still no match for a Custodian. Custodes are orders of Magnitudes above even Calgar or Dante. Who are arguably the greatest living Space Marines, save Ragnar, who is still no match. At this point, it's "perfect fighter" fluff vs "perfect fighter" fluff. Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it? It's a logical paradox. Based solely off who's fluff is greater, Lelith has 1 book? Custodes have 1 or 2, but neither really focus on their martial prowess except for the second one, and that's like a single chapter of Valarian taking apart Minotaur Primaris. So Lelith takes it unless it's a named Custodian.
I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".
I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.
In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.
Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!
Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.
Da Butcha wrote: I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".
I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.
In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.
Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!
Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.
So what if it’s a duel with him having his weapons and armor whereas she is equipped with her regular weapons when she engaged other combatants?
Da Butcha wrote: I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".
I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.
In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.
Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!
Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.
So what if it’s a duel with him having his weapons and armor whereas she is equipped with her regular weapons when she engaged other combatants?
Why are you still pressing the issue? I think we've established quite decisively over 2 pages, that lelith could quite reliably take a single "standard" custodian in the scenario you describe.
Da Butcha wrote: I just want to chime in and muddy the whole damn thing up with the fact that "in melee" doesn't equal "in a duel".
I'm reasonably confident that in something like a duel, where there's a defined time, location, and duration, for a fight, Lelith would probably win. If the two combatants have equivalent weapons and armor (and we don't give Lelith Custodian armor), then I'm absolutely sure she would win.
In any sort of melee? Where it might be a planned encounter, or a chance encounter, and when there's no certainty of the duration of the fight? I can see that easily going either way. Lelith might surprise a Custodian and one-shot him, or a Custodian might wear her down in an unfriendly environment that he can endure and she cannot. It might be in a high-gravity field where her mobility is compromised, or a narrow tangle of passages where the larger Custodian is hampered and an easier target. It could be in an area with lethal radiation (where the Custodian has protection from his armor, and his genetics), or underwater, where he could just hold his breath longer and win by outlasting her.
Asking if she can win vs. a Custodian 'in a fight' is pretty meaningless, unless you are specifying something about the fight. Heck, throw her into a fight vs. a basic space marine--outside a ship's airlock, in airless space, and Lelith may lose pretty quickly!
Once you start defining the melee more specifically, ruling out all sorts of stuff (does he have his armor? Does he have his weapons? Does SHE have her weapons?) the parameters narrow down a lot, depending on what you allow or exclude.
So what if it’s a duel with him having his weapons and armor whereas she is equipped with her regular weapons when she engaged other combatants?
Why are you still pressing the issue? I think we've established quite decisively over 2 pages, that lelith could quite reliably take a single "standard" custodian in the scenario you describe.
I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.
Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.
So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.
Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.
Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.
Wyldhunt wrote: I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.
Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.
So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.
Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.
Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.
Sorry but where does that ridiculous argument come from that custodes believe that every single one of them could take on a primach? Where has that ever been said? They can't and they don't claim that they do. A semi-sizeable group of them....problably? Maybe? Do people forget how overpowered primarchs are in the fluff? Most primarchs could take on even named greater demons like sanguinius did with kha banda, something no single custodian could eve hope of doing....and yeah I'm including valdor in this.
So once and for all: a single custodian could never take on a primarch. They are by far the best (non primarch) fighers the imperium can produce, but they are not the best fighters by default in all of 40k. And lelith could trounce one of them in a duel, though it might prove a bit more of a challenge than usual, which she and her spectators would probably rather enjoy, which is also why the haemunculus covens are probably rather keen on getting their hands on a few custodes.
I think she would beat the average Custodian pretty handily.
Drazhar took on three at once and turned their corpses into a chair, and I'd put Lelith around his level.
JNAProductions wrote: I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.
Completely wrong. A squad of SM in fluff easily takes on a whole army of foes, be it human or xeno ones (see Astartes video for good visualization). Primaris are better than that, and a whole squad acting in concert would easily take her. Hell, even on tabletop, where SM are heavily nerfed, a primaris squad costs more than Lelith and should absolutely wreck her in any sort of balanced game, outside of 7th edition broken Eldar OP gak.
As for the the OP question, she might be able to take a fresh one. One with good skills? Probably not. Funnily enough, there was a similar fight in the mediocre Ventris series, Cato vs Lelith expy - she managed to slip past his blade and stab his heart, only for notLelith to belatedly realize SM have two hearts and the wound wasn't fatal - cue Cato snapping her neck now that she was within easy arms reach. I can see Lelith fight going about the same, Custode tanking the supposedly fatal hit thanks to her lack of weak point knowledge and smashing her in return.
Wyldhunt wrote: I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.
Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.
So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.
Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.
Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.
Sorry but where does that ridiculous argument come from that custodes believe that every single one of them could take on a primach? Where has that ever been said? They can't and they don't claim that they do. A semi-sizeable group of them....problably? Maybe? Do people forget how overpowered primarchs are in the fluff? Most primarchs could take on even named greater demons like sanguinius did with kha banda, something no single custodian could eve hope of doing....and yeah I'm including valdor in this.
So once and for all: a single custodian could never take on a primarch. They are by far the best (non primarch) fighers the imperium can produce, but they are not the best fighters by default in all of 40k. And lelith could trounce one of them in a duel, though it might prove a bit more of a challenge than usual, which she and her spectators would probably rather enjoy, which is also why the haemunculus covens are probably rather keen on getting their hands on a few custodes.
Yeah I agree, I don’t think it’s supportable that custodians can solo a primarchs. In the Alpharius novel
Spoiler:
Alpharius, one of the weaker primarchs one-on-one, one shots a regular custodian without any particularly Gucci kit then solos Constantin Valdour, the best custodian, prior to big E putting a stop to the fight (with the armour/spear from the custodian he killed).
Pffft, could a Primarch take Marbo? I mean it's widely known that marbo is the most powerful character in 40k....I mean have you seen Marbos biceps? Or his cigar? No way Lelith could take on Arnold Stallon....I mean Sly Marbo. He'd just rub himself in some mud and set some traps in a jungle, done. But what if there is no jungle around when the fight takes place you say? Even a small shrubbery is enough jungle for Marbo to trap you and take you down....so yeah, no chance Lelith can take him.
But then again, even the nightbringer checks under his bed for Sly Marbo, so can't really blame Lelith for losing that one.
Wyldhunt wrote: I think others have laid it out pretty well. One good hit from a custodes could devastate Lelith's body and impede the movement that is central to how she survives. However, she's probably fast and skilled enough to just not get hit. She might not be able to go for the kill right away, but she'd cut away at his weak bits little by little until blood loss killed him (hard to pull off against a marine let alone a custodes) or she'd severed enough ligaments to immobilize him and go in for the kill.
Part of the thing about custodes fluff is that they're described as being so powerful that their own fluff kind of... can't be true. Like, if each custodes is so strong that they genuinely feel they have decent odds of killing a primarch, then we're talking about the imperium having access to thousands(?) of near-primarch-tier soldiers. They ought to be able to curb stomp pretty much any combat challenge they come across before lunch. Which, of course, would kind of ruin the status quo of 40k.
So to avoid having to reframe primarchs as way weaker or xenos as way stronger and so on, we all kind of acknowledge that custodes, though good, probably aren't actually quite *that* good. In the same way that tyranid fluff says they're *so* numerous you can never defeat them and eldar psykers are so talented that you can never outmaneuver t hem and the Alpha Legion's plans are *so* intricate that they always win by default... We kind of accept that these statements are a bit hyperbolic, at least when put up against the other similarly over-the-top stuff in the setting.
Supposedly a necron lychguard will avoid swinging its sword at all if it can't guarantee that the swing will be absolutely perfect. This translates into being Weapon Skill 3+ on the tabletop. Custodes are super duper warriors, but also my dark eldar wyches are allowed to kill them.
Basically, the setting can't really hold up under the weight of the custodes' own propaganda being true. If their most basic dude can beat the most powerful eldar duelist in a duel, then no eldar melee unit should ever be a threat to custodes. If each custodes is a smarty pants that can hold the Emperor's interest, then they should probably be more or less immune to the schemes of the AL, the Poisoned Tongue, and any other sneaky smarty pants faction in the setting. If each custodes feels like he has a shot at killing a primarch, then a group of custodes should probably never feel threatened by anything that has stats in 40k.
Sorry but where does that ridiculous argument come from that custodes believe that every single one of them could take on a primach? Where has that ever been said? They can't and they don't claim that they do. A semi-sizeable group of them....problably? Maybe? Do people forget how overpowered primarchs are in the fluff? Most primarchs could take on even named greater demons like sanguinius did with kha banda, something no single custodian could eve hope of doing....and yeah I'm including valdor in this.
So once and for all: a single custodian could never take on a primarch. They are by far the best (non primarch) fighers the imperium can produce, but they are not the best fighters by default in all of 40k. And lelith could trounce one of them in a duel, though it might prove a bit more of a challenge than usual, which she and her spectators would probably rather enjoy, which is also why the haemunculus covens are probably rather keen on getting their hands on a few custodes.
Yeah I agree, I don’t think it’s supportable that custodians can solo a primarchs. In the Alpharius novel
Spoiler:
Alpharius, one of the weaker primarchs one-on-one, one shots a regular custodian without any particularly Gucci kit then solos Constantin Valdour, the best custodian, prior to big E putting a stop to the fight (with the armour/spear from the custodian he killed).
Spoiler:
Just a small correction; he used the spear, but was unarmered.
Barring gakky non-answers like "Bruh it depends on who writes it lmao!" Lelith should generally be able to kill the average Custodian in a duel, but probably be beaten by a top tier Custode like Valoris.
Lelith is not so much more skilled or fast than Valoris that she could evade every hit, and the difference in physicality is such that a single hit would pulp her insides and shatter bones. She shouldn't be able to block an attack from even an average Custodian and would have to dodge everything, because he is unironically probably somewhere in the ballpark of dozens of times more physically powerful than her. He could literally explode her skull with a single jab.
JNAProductions wrote: I know-it's just a shame that Lelith flipping Hesperax loses to a ten-man of regular Intercessors on the tabletop, when in the lore, she should trounce them.
Completely wrong. A squad of SM in fluff easily takes on a whole army of foes, be it human or xeno ones (see Astartes video for good visualization). Primaris are better than that, and a whole squad acting in concert would easily take her. Hell, even on tabletop, where SM are heavily nerfed, a primaris squad costs more than Lelith and should absolutely wreck her in any sort of balanced game, outside of 7th edition broken Eldar OP gak.
As for the the OP question, she might be able to take a fresh one. One with good skills? Probably not. Funnily enough, there was a similar fight in the mediocre Ventris series, Cato vs Lelith expy - she managed to slip past his blade and stab his heart, only for notLelith to belatedly realize SM have two hearts and the wound wasn't fatal - cue Cato snapping her neck now that she was within easy arms reach. I can see Lelith fight going about the same, Custode tanking the supposedly fatal hit thanks to her lack of weak point knowledge and smashing her in return.
Your elf derangement syndrome is embarrassing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Animus wrote: I think she would beat the average Custodian pretty handily.
Drazhar took on three at once and turned their corpses into a chair, and I'd put Lelith around his level.
Frankly I wouldn't, simply because both are top tier skilled Dark Eldar fighters, but Drazhar (probably because he's a Phoenix Lord) is simply much more physically powerful than she is. He also has better gear.
Since custodes are kinda hyped in the lore regarding their abilities, and they can even back up most of that hype it's kinda normal for people to wonder what characters from other factions could take on a single custodian, since they are the best non-character fighters the imperium has (note that I intentionally said "fighters" and not soldiers).
So let's create a comprehensive list of characters that SHOULD IN ALL PROBABILITY be able to take on a standard custodian in SINGLE COMBAT based on what we know about the most consistent fluff.
So not considering top tier custodians like Trajann Valoris or Constantin Valdor and not considering garbage like an unarmored worleader killing a custodian in the outcast dead because the author is too dumb to research the setting he is writing his book in.
The obvious choices:
-Sly Marbo: because of course he can. I already said its widely known he's the most powerful character in the setting.
- Kaldor Draigo: cause he's a meme.
- Mephiston Lord of Death: becaue he's basically gone super saiyan by now....he is basically an anime character. Not as much of a meme as draigo, but still ridiculous.
The serious obvious choices:
- All the Primarchs: Primarchs are OP in the fluff....not much else to say here, there is not much in 40k that can challenge one in single combat.
-All the named greater demons like Shalaxi Hellbane or Ka'Bandha: they are the most powerful agents of their respective gods, so no chance a single custodian can stand against them.
- All the standard greater demons: same as above. Even though the "standard" variants seem to be a bit weaker than their named counterparts there is still no way a single custodian could take one of them.
- All the phoenix lords (yes, Drazhar aswell): They often get shafted in the lore, but they are still extremely powerful and every one of them should be able to take on at least one custodian.
- Avatar of Khaine: they appear to be maybe a bit weaker than greater demons, but still should be able to handily take on a single custodian.
- Ghazgkull: the big green would just steamroll a bog standard custodian, no contest. And yes I know! Ragnar "beat" him or they killed each other, which is utter, utter garbage writing. Ghaz is by far the most powerful ork since the beast and there is no way a single custodian, let alone some space furry can stand against that absolute unit.
- The swarmlord: probably millions of years of evolution and combat experience distilled into one being....yeah, no chance a single custodian would stand a chance against that.
- Hive Tyrants: 2-3 Custodians should probably be able to take one, but not in single combat.
- Lelith Hesperax: not gonna discuss it further, since the whole thread is dedicated to this question. I will say though I don't think Lelith would utterly steamroll a custodian. She'd definitely get the job done, but she would have to take some time and actually work for it.
- Skulltaker: a demon primarliy created for dueling mortal champions, I think he should be able to kill a standard custodian with some effort.
- Solitaires: the space-ninja-clowns that defy gravity and logic should also be able to take on a standard custodian. Though I would put them quite even with some of the higher ranking custodes like tribunes.
- Abaddon: 10k years of chaos steroids and OP wargear...he can do it. People crap on abaddon alot, but forget that even before being empowered by chaos and getting the talon, he was one of the best fighters among all legions during the crusade.
- Kharn: I think his guy is massively overrated, but being on khorne-steroids for so long he could probably do it. A higher ranking custodian would probably beat him though and valoris would just stomp him.
- The big three: I personally think it's dumb, but if there were ever a story to be written where either dante, grimnar or calgar had to face of against a standard custodian, they would win. Then again, they would beat most other entries on this list because of copious amounts of plot armor....
- Crusade era Sigismund: the OG emperors champion was the deadliest space marine in 30k....I'm quite confident he could take on a standard custodian, especially if the custodian were to underestimate him for even one second.
So there you have it. There are a lot of characters that can imo beat a standard custodian. Now everybody do the internet and this forum justice and flame me because I forgot that one character from the faction you play.
Void__Dragon wrote: Barring gakky non-answers like "Bruh it depends on who writes it lmao!" Lelith should generally be able to kill the average Custodian in a duel, but probably be beaten by a top tier Custode like Valoris.
Lelith is not so much more skilled or fast than Valoris that she could evade every hit, and the difference in physicality is such that a single hit would pulp her insides and shatter bones. She shouldn't be able to block an attack from even an average Custodian and would have to dodge everything, because he is unironically probably somewhere in the ballpark of dozens of times more physically powerful than her. He could literally explode her skull with a single jab.
Right, I mean if we are pitting a named character against any one, they are essentially just a red shirt. So we have to pit named character against named character. Valerian took down a blood thirster, and held back an entire ships worth of black legion with just him and Aleya. Not just Cultists. Like Heretic Astartes.
Named character vs named character is silly though, because fluff is entirely offset by fluff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, I mean if we are pitting a named character against any one, they are essentially just a red shirt. So we have to pit named character against named character. Valerian took down a blood thirster, and held back an entire ships worth of black legion with just him and Aleya. Not just Cultists. Like Heretic Astartes.
Named character vs named character is silly though, because fluff is entirely offset by fluff.
I mean, he mentioned "top tier Custodian duelist", so...though to be fair, Valerian defeated the bloodthirster with the help of grey knights and sisters of silence, not that it isn't impressive though. Weird that Valerian is rarely brought up despite how much of a beast he is.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Right, I mean if we are pitting a named character against any one, they are essentially just a red shirt. So we have to pit named character against named character. Valerian took down a blood thirster, and held back an entire ships worth of black legion with just him and Aleya. Not just Cultists. Like Heretic Astartes.
Named character vs named character is silly though, because fluff is entirely offset by fluff.
Jesus Christ Fezzik I'm gonna get an aneurysm one of these days. Stop falsely quoting lore. We have had this exact argument before. Valerian did NOT take down a bloodthirster in single combat as you insinuated. He was able to do it with the help of aleya and a full squad of grey knights and still got beat to a pulp.
I'm not very knowledgable in either fluff, but from what I know I immediatly had the image from the fights between Marv (Mickey Rourke) and Kevin (Elijah Wood) in Sin City. Kevin being incredibly fast and messing up the physically superior Marv badly. But when the latter manages to grab him so that can't evade, he gets knocked out immediatly. So my money would be on Lelith, but I would give even a basic Custodes always a chance, since one slip or missstep might be all he needs.
Pyroalchi wrote: I'm not very knowledgable in either fluff, but from what I know I immediatly had the image from the fights between Marv (Mickey Rourke) and Kevin (Elijah Wood) in Sin City. Kevin being incredibly fast and messing up the physically superior Marv badly. But when the latter manages to grab him so that can't evade, he gets knocked out immediatly. So my money would be on Lelith, but I would give even a basic Custodes always a chance, since one slip or missstep might be all he needs.
From what I've seen, Custodians vary a lot in power, even more so than their Astartes cousins. Like, there was that one time when some random mookstodes got defeated by some Harlequins (originally it wasn't going to be Custodians that those Harlequins fought, however, those things were still printed), and then you got top tiers like Valdor and Valoris.
She has canonically killed daemon princes and hive tyrants in the Commoragh arenas so sure, a generic custodes probably isn't out of the realm of possibility.
Also, in Gathering Storm the Harlequins gak on a fair amount of Custodes in melee combat on Terra, so we know they're not invincible.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah cos Lelith having defeated so many Marines in the arena would not know about the 2 hearts....
Space Marines have been around for 10k years, everybody knows everything about their anatomy, it's strength and weaknesses.
What you say is true, and maybe means the real serious diversity of space marines is actually a good thing.
Someone who'se spent a thousand years fighting UM successors may have the whole codex astartes thing down, and pretty much know what UM chapters will do.
Now what happens when they run into spacewolves or blood angels?
"What are those marines doing?"
"It sounds like they're...howling, lord."
"What? Howling? We've fought them for centuries and they've never howled. They're completely predictable at this point, they're hopelessly enslaved to an ancient book of dogma! It never says they should howl!"
"Uh, there marines are howling, lord, and, they're smashing thru out defense line!"
"That's impossible, they're totally fanatical about following the same dogma constantly! They can't change...ARGH!"
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah cos Lelith having defeated so many Marines in the arena would not know about the 2 hearts....
Space Marines have been around for 10k years, everybody knows everything about their anatomy, it's strength and weaknesses.
I would argue that surprisingly little is known about the Custodes, even by Cawl. And he worked with the Emperor when the Astartes were designed. The Custodes manufacturing process is e pretty strict secret, which is why you don't see Cawl making Primaris Custodes, which again, knowing Cawl, he absolutely would try to do, being a Narcissistic genius playboy philantrobot.
I wouldn't doubt that Lelith has studied what is known about their inner workings (guts) and their armor and weapons. But even those aren't widely known. When Guilliman gives whats his name that Custodes Auramite Powerfist, he mentions how the tech of it's making is lost, not even Cawl can duplicate their craftsmanship of weapons.
Again, none of this matters though. If Lelith meets a standard Custodian guard fresh off the line, yeah, he's toast. If she meets a Custodians of the OLD days who's got more names on his armor than the Imperial Fists have bolters, then she's likely in for a rough fight. Trajaan wouldn't even waste time making trying to learn from her. He'd just end the fight as soon as possible.
Forget custodes, I want to see her take on Sly Marbo!
(And not the fanfic version where after over an hour of intense fighting the two are both sweaty, exhausted, breathing heavily, stop and stare long at each other, then lunge into a furious frenzy of hate sex that leaves both refusing to kill the other as neither can bear to lose such a perfect enemy. I haven't read that one but I just know it exists somewhere! If you have the link to it please don't post it...)
But yeah, a good story revolving around a fight between those two, perhaps several times of the course in a novel, could be interesting with both seeing each other as the perfect enemy that they just need to have, kinda like how thrakka sees yarrick. Maybe lilith kills a custode, and Marbo kills the biggest baddest DE lord on the planet, leading both to seek each other out as worthy opponents, it could work.
I wouldn't doubt that Lelith has studied what is known about their inner workings (guts) and their armor and weapons. But even those aren't widely known. When Guilliman gives whats his name that Custodes Auramite Powerfist, he mentions how the tech of it's making is lost, not even Cawl can duplicate their crafts.
Again, none of this matters though. If Lelith meets a standard Custodian guard fresh off the line, yeah, he's toast. If she meets a Custodians of the OLD days who's got more names on his armor than the Imperial Fists have bolters, then she's likely in for a rough fight. Trajaan wouldn't even waste time making trying to learn from her. He'd just end the fight as soon as possible.
So, in short, she’d be toast if she’s ever put against a Custodian veteran, or are you portraying it as a toss up?
You know these "could x beat y" posts are largely hard to answer because in some editions x might wipe the floor with y and in others it could go the other way.
if you do play these one on one battle out on a tabletop do you use stratagems? Give each side some CPs to use for them or just straight up no strats?
I wouldn't doubt that Lelith has studied what is known about their inner workings (guts) and their armor and weapons. But even those aren't widely known. When Guilliman gives whats his name that Custodes Auramite Powerfist, he mentions how the tech of it's making is lost, not even Cawl can duplicate their crafts.
Again, none of this matters though. If Lelith meets a standard Custodian guard fresh off the line, yeah, he's toast. If she meets a Custodians of the OLD days who's got more names on his armor than the Imperial Fists have bolters, then she's likely in for a rough fight. Trajaan wouldn't even waste time making trying to learn from her. He'd just end the fight as soon as possible.
So, in short, she’d be toast if she’s ever put against a Custodian veteran, or are you portraying it as a toss up?
Lelith has taken more than her share of trophies from some of the best warriors in the galaxy. I think named Custodians (Speaking in the lore sense here where they earn names, not special character meaning) are a breed apart from say, just off the school bus ones. I still don't think it would be close but Trajaan, Valdor, and likely Valerian would likely win. But this is like calling the superbowl during training camp. Impossible to say. I think we are making Lelith out to be something she's not. She's not Angron the Primarch here. She's just a really good knife fighter.
I wouldn't doubt that Lelith has studied what is known about their inner workings (guts) and their armor and weapons. But even those aren't widely known. When Guilliman gives whats his name that Custodes Auramite Powerfist, he mentions how the tech of it's making is lost, not even Cawl can duplicate their crafts.
Again, none of this matters though. If Lelith meets a standard Custodian guard fresh off the line, yeah, he's toast. If she meets a Custodians of the OLD days who's got more names on his armor than the Imperial Fists have bolters, then she's likely in for a rough fight. Trajaan wouldn't even waste time making trying to learn from her. He'd just end the fight as soon as possible.
So, in short, she’d be toast if she’s ever put against a Custodian veteran, or are you portraying it as a toss up?
Lelith has taken more than her share of trophies from some of the best warriors in the galaxy. I think named Custodians (Speaking in the lore sense here where they earn names, not special character meaning) are a breed apart from say, just off the school bus ones. I still don't think it would be close but Trajaan, Valdor, and likely Valerian would likely win. But this is like calling the superbowl during training camp. Impossible to say. I think we are making Lelith out to be something she's not. She's not Angron the Primarch here. She's just a really good knife fighter.
Nah, I think you’re missing my point here, as far as Valerian (who’s a “named” veteran custodian) and his feats goes, he actually considered himself more of a “scholar” type iirc. The thing is, if he’s indeed the standards of what you classify as “custodians of the OLD days”, then I really fail to see why you say “she’s in for a rough fight” rather than “she’d probably lose”. Valerian is just too damn durable ,has superior gear, and possesses relatively comparable speed. The thing is, Custodians aren’t SMs, and they could vary a lot in power.
I think you haven't read my posts in this thread. I'm on the side of the Custodes here. My point is it's all fluff. In her fluff, she's defeated Custodes before. 3 of them. At the same time I think. Fully armored. Valarian is good, but he's not THAT good. Aside from Trajaan or Valdor, she'd be on top at the end.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think you haven't read my posts in this thread. I'm on the side of the Custodes here. My point is it's all fluff. In her fluff, she's defeated Custodes before. 3 of them. At the same time I think. Fully armored. Valarian is good, but he's not THAT good. Aside from Trajaan or Valdor, she'd be on top at the end.
Where has Lelith Hesperax actually gotten into fights with anybody in the fluff? Other than Yvraine, I'm struggling to find actual fight examples of her, mostly authors tend to put in characters who are TECHNICALLY not lelith, but are still like "THE DEADLIEST SUCCUBUS EVAR" and then they have some space marine stomp their head in using Kewl Spess Mehrine Skillz.
Like the example someone brought up above of "oh ho ho, but she forgot SPESS MEHRINES HAS 2 HERAT!?!?!"
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think you haven't read my posts in this thread. I'm on the side of the Custodes here. My point is it's all fluff. In her fluff, she's defeated Custodes before. 3 of them. At the same time I think. Fully armored. Valarian is good, but he's not THAT good. Aside from Trajaan or Valdor, she'd be on top at the end.
Where has Lelith Hesperax actually gotten into fights with anybody in the fluff? Other than Yvraine, I'm struggling to find actual fight examples of her, mostly authors tend to put in characters who are TECHNICALLY not lelith, but are still like "THE DEADLIEST SUCCUBUS EVAR" and then they have some space marine stomp their head in using Kewl Spess Mehrine Skillz.
Like the example someone brought up above of "oh ho ho, but she forgot SPESS MEHRINES HAS 2 HERAT!?!?!"
To pretend as somewhat a thread starter with a neutral attitude, I’d provide some of her feats for you: She defeated the space marine company champion Cadulon who won several times the feast of blades while only suffering one scar, and she was able to end an archon in 6 minutes after that. Cadulon on the other hand, managed to fight an entire kabal before being abducted and put into the arenas. In more recent story lines, she oneshotted a chaos lord from the alpha legion, and in another arc she was about to bring in Highmarshal Helbrecht after beating him up on the battlefield, however, she was stopped by the legion of the damned because her blades could not lay a hit on their spectral form. In her most recent appearance in the Silent Hunters, she was taking on and stomping some high ranking marine protagonists including a librarian while playing around like carving her sigil on their face and stuff.
So there’s that, oh and she managed to not get tagged when fighting with some eldar champions against shalaxi helbane, whereas Jain Zar still got cut iirc. But..Jain Zar still has more impressive feats, at least to my knowledge.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: My point is it's all fluff. In her fluff, she's defeated Custodes before. 3 of them. At the same time I think.
THAT, my guy, is DRAZHAR aka evil Phoenix lord Arhra.
Thank you for clearing that up. I don't think GW ever spent a large ammount of time on building Custodes Fluff, because it's ingrained? Like, they were designed by the Emperor. They slaughtered the entirety of the Thunder Warriors Legion, which I'm told were some pretty tough dudes. Aside from Valarian and Valdor, it never really goes into how GOOD they really are. I mean Valdor beat up on Primarch who didn't have his armor or weapons, and frankly, was one of the weaker primarchs, and Valdor ambushed him, but still.
It never goes into how strong Trajaan is other than to say he is regarded as "one of the greatest warriors in the imperium". Valerian helps take down a blood thirster with some Sisters and a squad of GK, and held off an entire company of black legion with just him and Aleya and no bolters, just melee. That's basically their recent fluff. There might be a ton of stuff in the 30k books, but I'm not exactly sure.
Lelith on the other hand has LOTS of fluff about how baddassed she is. Sly Marbo doesn't, but his fluff is that no one ever survives to relay any accounts of his awesomeness. Are we counting it as canon that he shouted an Archon fleet into destruction? jk.
Yeah, based off of fluff alone, Lelith has to take it against a standard Custode.
The fluff has nothing to do with the rules tho. I mean i read 40k novels and i see a chaos dreadnought destroyed by an overloading imperial lasrifle, like a phaser set on overload on star trek.
I see a battlecannon shot from a stock leman russ killing 'dozens' of orks.
if someone here has the right codexi, just run a few battles between lelith and a custodes and tell us how they went. maybe assign each one like 3 cp for strats.
GW has made it pretty clear that named characters with miniatures in 40k won't ever be perma-killed.
That's why we get those fizzer stories of 2 characters getting into punch ups but stuff gets in the way and they never get a resolution.
Death is only possible for characters with resurrection capability, so Phoenix lords, tyranids, necrons, daemons, marines being rubiconed to avoid dying.
Technically Lelith could be resurrected via cloning like other dark eldar, so she's higher on the list of possible kills than other characters.
Hellebore wrote: GW has made it pretty clear that named characters with miniatures in 40k won't ever be perma-killed.
That's why we get those fizzer stories of 2 characters getting into punch ups but stuff gets in the way and they never get a resolution.
Death is only possible for characters with resurrection capability, so Phoenix lords, tyranids, necrons, daemons, marines being rubiconed to avoid dying.
Technically Lelith could be resurrected via cloning like other dark eldar, so she's higher on the list of possible kills than other characters.
She’s now Yvraine’s bodyguard or something, and knowing Vect and how much he hates the ynnari,, I doubt they would get access of DE tech in the perceivable future.
But how does this have anything to do with the topic? The topic is about putting a custodian guard against Hesperax in a duel, fluff wise.
Hellebore wrote: GW has made it pretty clear that named characters with miniatures in 40k won't ever be perma-killed.
That's why we get those fizzer stories of 2 characters getting into punch ups but stuff gets in the way and they never get a resolution.
Death is only possible for characters with resurrection capability, so Phoenix lords, tyranids, necrons, daemons, marines being rubiconed to avoid dying.
Technically Lelith could be resurrected via cloning like other dark eldar, so she's higher on the list of possible kills than other characters.
She’s now Yvraine’s bodyguard or something, and knowing Vect and how much he hates the ynnari,, I doubt they would get access of DE tech in the perceivable future.
But how does this have anything to do with the topic? The topic is about putting a custodian guard against Hesperax in a duel, fluff wise.
I agree it's a sidetrack to the main question but.....not only do we not know that she's not an Agent of Vect, but Vect doesn't 'control' the Haemoculus Covens. Lelith could make a deal with any one of a number of them, the only issue being that they hate the Ynnari, but they are nonetheless very mercenary.
Hellebore wrote: GW has made it pretty clear that named characters with miniatures in 40k won't ever be perma-killed.
That's why we get those fizzer stories of 2 characters getting into punch ups but stuff gets in the way and they never get a resolution.
Death is only possible for characters with resurrection capability, so Phoenix lords, tyranids, necrons, daemons, marines being rubiconed to avoid dying.
Technically Lelith could be resurrected via cloning like other dark eldar, so she's higher on the list of possible kills than other characters.
Yeah, i read a AL novel where
Spoiler:
Saint celestine got killed by Kharne, but she's basically Taarna from heavy metal. She mourned the loss of her 'host' or 'incarnation" as she died, but apparently when celestine buys it i guess her and her gemini guards do a jedi style fade out. Later there's some pure faithful brave and of course beautiful woman in the imperium and a golden glowing rift in the warp opens, out fly the gemini guards holding celestine's armor and weapons, and a new Saint Celestine is born, like Taarna pretty much.
While we're on a "Who could lelith kill' talk, how about lelith vs st. celestine and her guards?
Hellebore wrote: GW has made it pretty clear that named characters with miniatures in 40k won't ever be perma-killed.
That's why we get those fizzer stories of 2 characters getting into punch ups but stuff gets in the way and they never get a resolution.
Death is only possible for characters with resurrection capability, so Phoenix lords, tyranids, necrons, daemons, marines being rubiconed to avoid dying.
Technically Lelith could be resurrected via cloning like other dark eldar, so she's higher on the list of possible kills than other characters.
Yeah, i read a AL novel where
Spoiler:
Saint celestine got killed by Kharne, but she's basically Taarna from heavy metal. She mourned the loss of her 'host' or 'incarnation" as she died, but apparently when celestine buys it i guess her and her gemini guards do a jedi style fade out. Later there's some pure faithful brave and of course beautiful woman in the imperium and a golden glowing rift in the warp opens, out fly the gemini guards holding celestine's armor and weapons, and a new Saint Celestine is born, like Taarna pretty much.
While we're on a "Who could lelith kill' talk, how about lelith vs st. celestine and her guards?
The thing is, could Lelith's super sharp but NORMAL blades even hurt Celestine? Last time when she beat up Helbrecht and was about to bring him back to Commorragh, the Legion of the Damned happened, and it was pretty clear her blades could not harm them.
As for named characters with models on the table not dying, I refer you to Try again Bragg, Color Sgt. Kell, and Aun'va. Who still has rules and can be purchased.
The thing is, could Lelith's super sharp but NORMAL blades even hurt Celestine? Last time when she beat up Helbrecht and was about to bring him back to Commorragh, the Legion of the Damned happened, and it was pretty clear her blades could not harm them.
Lelith has access to an extensive armory. She's the leader of the most powerful wytch cult and is the greatest duelist of Commorragh. Hell, she even has a museum filled with the trophies and weapons of her most interesting kills (in that she is a bit of a Trazyn). She chooses to fight with simple knives because of the challenge, but she could easily get herself a powerful archite glaive with some magical property without much trouble if needs be. Once upon a time, she had an agoniser.
The thing is, could Lelith's super sharp but NORMAL blades even hurt Celestine? Last time when she beat up Helbrecht and was about to bring him back to Commorragh, the Legion of the Damned happened, and it was pretty clear her blades could not harm them.
Lelith has access to an extensive armory. She's the leader of the most powerful wytch cult and is the greatest duelist of Commorragh. Hell, she even has a museum filled with the trophies and weapons of her most interesting kills (in that she is a bit of a Trazyn). She chooses to fight with simple knives because of the challenge, but she could easily get herself a powerful archite glaive with some magical property without much trouble if needs be. Once upon a time, she had an agoniser.
SSSSSHHHHHHHH!
You'll have trazyn wanting to collect her!
As to celestine, well in one story she was hurt by what i guess would be 'normal', i,.e. not warp powered or psyker, weapons, like in the one i spoilered above. I mean we can assume he would not use psyker shenanigans.
The thing is, could Lelith's super sharp but NORMAL blades even hurt Celestine? Last time when she beat up Helbrecht and was about to bring him back to Commorragh, the Legion of the Damned happened, and it was pretty clear her blades could not harm them.
Lelith has access to an extensive armory. She's the leader of the most powerful wytch cult and is the greatest duelist of Commorragh. Hell, she even has a museum filled with the trophies and weapons of her most interesting kills (in that she is a bit of a Trazyn). She chooses to fight with simple knives because of the challenge, but she could easily get herself a powerful archite glaive with some magical property without much trouble if needs be. Once upon a time, she had an agoniser.
SSSSSHHHHHHHH!
You'll have trazyn wanting to collect her!
As to celestine, well in one story she was hurt by what i guess would be 'normal', i,.e. not warp powered or psyker, weapons, like in the one i spoilered above. I mean we can assume he would not use psyker shenanigans.
Well, I only remembered the time when she fell at the hands of Kharn and in another arc where she dueled failbaddon. The point is, failbaddon's sword is definitely not "normal", and Kharn is THE champion of Khorne, and iirc his chainaxe had something to do with the dark mechanicus, therefore I wouldn't necessarily call it normal either...besides, Celestine was likely kinda drained when Kharn slew her.
But fine, if we're going off-topic and purely hypothetical, let's roll with what the both of you are suggesting and say that Hesperax has what it takes to harm Celestine, how would their fight go? Lol
Hmm, Ok. Since celest has her guards, bigfoot brings a couple of her best followers to engage them.
During the fight it seems that lilly is winnin and celest in down, when lilly is struck from behind by one of her henchmen who brags will will claim hesperax was killed by celestine, then he killed the monkeigh and become a great champion.
While he's doing his bond villain reveal, the spirits of the fallen gemini infuse Celestine with their power and she strikes down the villain in mid maniacal laugh.
Lilly, wounded badly, summons her skyboard and grabs onto it as celestine steps in the deliver the killing blow, flying off vowing "Another day, Mon keigh!"
Celestine then mourns her fallen gemini and buries their bodies in a pair of deep depressions made in the ground by lelith's feet.
Matt Swain wrote: Hmm, Ok. Since celest has her guards, bigfoot brings a couple of her best followers to engage them.
During the fight it seems that lilly is winnin and celest in down, when lilly is struck from behind by one of her henchmen who brags will will claim hesperax was killed by celestine, then he killed the monkeigh and become a great champion.
While he's doing his bond villain reveal, the spirits of the fallen gemini infuse Celestine with their power and she strikes down the villain in mid maniacal laugh.
Lilly, wounded badly, summons her skyboard and grabs onto it as celestine steps in the deliver the killing blow, flying off vowing "Another day, Mon keigh!"
Celestine then mourns her fallen gemini and buries their bodies in a pair of deep depressions made in the ground by lelith's feet.
Umm...so Lelith would've killed Celestine in your scenario if not for that DE wannabe? Huh, interesting.
Void__Dragon wrote: She shouldn't be able to block an attack from even an average Custodian and would have to dodge everything, because he is unironically probably somewhere in the ballpark of dozens of times more physically powerful than her. He could literally explode her skull with a single jab.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/eumqrb/could_anyone_send_me_an_excerpt_of_the_battle/ Well, a harlequin was able to trade blows with an average one, and that included blocking as it stated "trading parries and ripostes like for like". Perhaps the Custodian wasn't using his guardian spear when fighting the harlequin intruder, but still, I don't see blocking a blow from an average custodian being an issue. Although, that page from "The Beast Rises" wasn't initially intended to be a fight between custodes and harlequins, but the thing got printed and as far as I recall, remains canon.
Right, an experienced and talented fighter can use glancing blows to "deflect" the attack, but still essentially block it. It's what made fencing a deadly form of swordsmanship. Take Brianne of Tarth vs Stabby Girl from game of thrones. A bastard sword vs a bastard's much smaller epee. The Epee wins because she's not using a lot of her strength in every single attack, and then is winded after 4 swings.
Matt Swain wrote: Well, if cultist chan can destroy an angry marine land raider with a thrown rock i guess Lelith can take down a custodes.
Screw that comic and flick-the-thief, 40k fanfics and fan arts are the worst. But seriously though, how do you think the fight would go? Does it depend on the custodian guard or do you think the standard ones would best her alone. ((Besides the “muh, 40k lore is inconsistent as hell” argument))
Ok, there's one thing that the lore emphasizes but the game can't really handle. Experience.
I mean, how fething old is hesperax, for example? Is she hundreds of years old? Thousands? Tens of thousands? How long has she been fighting? How much reflexive experience does she have?
A lot of lore goes on about how marines have decades, centuries, to become experienced, how eldar have been around in some cases for millions of years, how much experience do they have?
In the game maybe they get a WB/BS of 2+, and maybe a reroll 1's. That's all the game can do to reflect that really, well maybe a few special rules too here and there.
But in a story of hesperax vs, a custode, she might have eons of experience and the custode might be a relative noob.
I mean, honestly, who do you want to win? Who does the writer want to win?
Matt Swain wrote: Ok, there's one thing that the lore emphasizes but the game can't really handle. Experience.
I mean, how fething old is hesperax, for example? Is she hundreds of years old? Thousands? Tens of thousands? How long has she been fighting? How much reflexive experience does she have?
A lot of lore goes on about how marines have decades, centuries, to become experienced, how eldar have been around in some cases for millions of years, how much experience do they have?
In the game maybe they get a WB/BS of 2+, and maybe a reroll 1's. That's all the game can do to reflect that really, well maybe a few special rules too here and there.
But in a story of hesperax vs, a custode, she might have eons of experience and the custode might be a relative noob.
I mean, honestly, who do you want to win? Who does the writer want to win?
That’s the rub, but hey, if you read my previous post you’d know I kinda favor the golden bois because some of them have actual lore and personality (and frankly I like their designs better, more exotic I might add) whereas Hesperax is just a background dark elf-ish character with a sense of standby humor.
And since you asked about her age, I don’t really know the exact number but she aided Vect during his first coup or something like that.
Cognitive wrote: Nah, you missed my point there, she actually cut through marine armor in the Silent Hunter (including a librarian’s wrist), and made those look like butter with her knives.
You know...I really dislike lore that says someone cut through someone else's armor. If armor can be just cut through willy nilly, then it defeats the purpose of wearing armor. Sure, there should be exceptions, but it should also come with a huge disadvantage, such as getting your blade wedged, and no longer being able to retrieve it.
Matt Swain wrote: Ok, there's one thing that the lore emphasizes but the game can't really handle. Experience.
I mean, how fething old is hesperax, for example? Is she hundreds of years old? Thousands? Tens of thousands? How long has she been fighting? How much reflexive experience does she have?
A lot of lore goes on about how marines have decades, centuries, to become experienced, how eldar have been around in some cases for millions of years, how much experience do they have?
But in a story of hesperax vs, a custode, she might have eons of experience and the custode might be a relative noob.
I mean, honestly, who do you want to win? Who does the writer want to win?
I mean, you could have a decade or two of experience in every martial arts in the history of man, but you'd still lose a fight against a grizzly, unless you have an amazing technological or tactical advantage. I know eldar are very cunning, experienced, and deadly fast, but based on the lore available, I have a hard time seeing any Aeldari taking on a healthy Custodes 1 on 1 in a fair fight. The genetic/biological difference is much too great a hurdle.
Cognitive wrote: Nah, you missed my point there, she actually cut through marine armor in the Silent Hunter (including a librarian’s wrist), and made those look like butter with her knives.
You know...I really dislike lore that says someone cut through someone else's armor. If armor cut be just cut through willy nilly, then it defeats the purpose of wearing armor. Sure, there should be exceptions, but it should also come with a huge disadvantage, such as getting your blade wedged, and no longer being able to retrieve it.
Ceramite armors and armors of a higher caliber got pierced and cut all the time, it’s not a rare thing. With a guardian spear or something, Vlaerian gutted down numerous CSM in meele, now how did you think our favorite shield captain achieve that? By always aiming to the head? Lmao he clearly tore through them like butter as well. Now return to the topic I don’t really see why you’re upset about her blades being able to do so, despite that she and other high tier DEs like Drazhar had cut through high caliber armor in an abundance of instances. Hell, just go see post #17 of the last thread.
It seems to me that you’re a bit biased and is somehow trying to disregard certain showings because of your obvious preference in a particular side. I get it, eldars are treated like punching bags most of the times but there are certain individuals with potent showings and weapons.
I mean, you could have a decade or two of experience in every martial arts in the history of man, but you'd still lose a fight against a grizzly, unless you have an amazing technological or tactical advantage. I know eldar are very cunning, experienced, and deadly fast, but based on the lore available, I have a hard time seeing any Aeldari taking on a healthy Custodes 1 on 1 in a fair fight. The genetic/biological difference is much too great a hurdle.
Did you read my previous posts? Drazhar aka the fallen Phoenix Lord Arhra singlehandedly slaughtered a trio of Custodian Guards and a named Harlequin was able to kill a no name custodian during war of the beasts.
I’m not arguing anything (hell, I even argue for the Custodians multiple times in this long-ass thread), it’s just that I find your cluelessness of events that happened (and got printed nonetheless)...a bit annoying, to be frank.
