The Ork codex was previewed the other day. Along with Beast-snagga models (including squighog riders, which are super cool). But does anyone have any indication what upgrades Orks might be receiving that will make them competitive again?

I ask because my second son plays orks and rants at great length about how bad their armor and wounds are and how desperately they need improvements to be viable on the table. I think he has some valid points and we have discussed what changes we would make, but I'm curious if anyone has any leads on what might be coming down the pike.

Nope.

We know the beastsnagga boys are 'somewhere between a boy or nob' (so... probably Strength 5) and... that's about it.

There's probably at least two more kits we haven't seen (in plastic, they're likely in the video art).

No idea on overall changes to the army unless they talked about it in the video on friday.
I do suspect that some of the clan traits will change. Snakebites/Blood Axes do too little, and Deathskulls does too much, and the rest are staggered in between. Hopefully they'll be brought in line (and upwards for most of them)


I have doubts about the Beastsnagga Squighog unit, just because the Khorne bloodcrushers exist and are far too easy to kill.

Everything could break on points or special traits. If they get some pseudo fly all terrain type of movment or at ~35pts for 3W per raider, they could find some us. Specially if they move fast.

There were a few hints that Beast Snaggas will benefit more from the Snakebites Kultur than any other (much like Speed Freeks do with the Evil Sunz Kultur) but seeing as how this is basically a total re-write of the codex that could just be GW's take on the matter and not how it plays on the table.

Makes you wonder what the other half of the updated Kultur rule will be since 6+++ isn't something that could be better or worst for any type of model.

 Ghaz wrote:
There were a few hints that Beast Snaggas will benefit more from the Snakebites Kultur than any other (much like Speed Freeks do with the Evil Sunz Kultur) but seeing as how this is basically a total re-write of the codex that could just be GW's take on the matter and not how it plays on the table.

But the biggest benefit for Evil Suns goes to Meganobz, not Speed Freaks.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
There were a few hints that Beast Snaggas will benefit more from the Snakebites Kultur than any other (much like Speed Freeks do with the Evil Sunz Kultur) but seeing as how this is basically a total re-write of the codex that could just be GW's take on the matter and not how it plays on the table.

But the biggest benefit for Evil Suns goes to Meganobz, not Speed Freaks.

Except they noted that they get more of a benefit from the Evil Sunz Kultur than any other Kultur, not that they a bigger benefit from the Evil Sunz Kultur than any other unit.

I expect like most 9th edition codexs so far, there will be a lot of changes across the board. I'm looking forward to seeing what the army will look like.

 Ghaz wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
There were a few hints that Beast Snaggas will benefit more from the Snakebites Kultur than any other (much like Speed Freeks do with the Evil Sunz Kultur) but seeing as how this is basically a total re-write of the codex that could just be GW's take on the matter and not how it plays on the table.

But the biggest benefit for Evil Suns goes to Meganobz, not Speed Freaks.

Except they noted that they get more of a benefit from the Evil Sunz Kultur than any other Kultur, not that they a bigger benefit from the Evil Sunz Kultur than any other unit.

I dunno. I'd much rather have a 6++ on units that have 12" or more of move than an extra 2"-4" of move.

Honestly we're a month or 2 away from codex release. Keep your eyes out, sooner or later you'll start to see the simplified datasheets being leaked/released with repackaged boxes. Then you'll be able to start guessing what upgrades have been made.

I can see Deffskullz being reduced to having the 6++ save and Obsec on all units. Or they make it a 6++ save, Obsec on all infantry, and our units get to make one reroll to wound roll for each unit in each phase.

 Ghaz wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
There were a few hints that Beast Snaggas will benefit more from the Snakebites Kultur than any other (much like Speed Freeks do with the Evil Sunz Kultur) but seeing as how this is basically a total re-write of the codex that could just be GW's take on the matter and not how it plays on the table.

But the biggest benefit for Evil Suns goes to Meganobz, not Speed Freaks.

Except they noted that they get more of a benefit from the Evil Sunz Kultur than any other Kultur, not that they a bigger benefit from the Evil Sunz Kultur than any other unit.

What are you talking about? Speed freeks already get an extra bonus from being evil suns over non-speed freeks. Snakebites probably get an additional bonus for beast snaggas (for example 5+++ instead of 6+++), but that doesn't mean that beast snaggas might not be better as deff skulls or goff.


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 dadx6 wrote:
The Ork codex was previewed the other day. Along with Beast-snagga models (including squighog riders, which are super cool). But does anyone have any indication what upgrades Orks might be receiving that will make them competitive again?

I ask because my second son plays orks and rants at great length about how bad their armor and wounds are and how desperately they need improvements to be viable on the table. I think he has some valid points and we have discussed what changes we would make, but I'm curious if anyone has any leads on what might be coming down the pike.

As others have said, there is not much known. If you expect orks to be harder to kill, that's highly unlikely, as quantity over quality is the primary army theme.
It's also not like orks aren't a viable army, while they lack the ability to remain undefeated for multiple games in a row, they definitely can win just as often as the 9th edition codices that aren't drukhari. If he isn't able to regularly win games with them now, it's unlikely that the new codex will help him greatly.

During the reveal feed, they showed off....

Snagga Boyz
Squighog Cavalry
Zodgrod
Nob on Squighog
Mega Armour Warboss

They went on to say this is around half of what’s coming. Now, let’s take that at absolute face value, and not a rough indication. 5 kits shown, 5 kits yet to be shown.

So far, everything (except Zodgrod, I think) has featured in the teaser animation. And that animation contains stuff yet to be seen. From memory?

1. New Boys. Distinctively different from what exists, due to shoulder mounted and very Rogue Trader era looking heavy weapons.
2. Some large vehicle for Snaggas, pulled by at least one Squig
3. Snagga Warboss in Mega Armour.

And on Saturday’s animation, there was a plan to be all sneaky. That could be interpreted as teasing Kommandos, so they could be a 4th as yet unseen unit.

Is there a 5th in the wings? Quite possibly. Dunno what it might be though.


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Oh, and what feels like flipping ages ago, they did a reveal teaser video for 40K characters.\

We’ve seen the SoB and Ad Mech ones - but no sign of the Ork also teased. Seems a safe bet it’ll be coming soon.

@Mad Doc, they said half of the new kits are in the box, not that half of the new kits are shown on the stream.

This is what I posted in the ork thread:

 Jidmah wrote:
Full run-down of what we know, including images of the model and the tapestry spoiler:

In the box:
1. Nob on Smasha Squig

Spoiler:

2. Zodgrod Wortsnagga

Spoiler:

3. Squighog Riders

Spoiler:

4. Beast Snagga Boyz

Spoiler:

Not in the box:
1. Pain boss

Spoiler:

2. Mega Boss

Spoiler:

3. Squig Sled (not revealed yet)

Spoiler:

4. Beast Snagga Warboss? (not revealed yet)

Spoiler:

The "new boyz" are very likely just lootas with a bit of artistic freedom, one of them looks exactly like one of the guns from the kit. It's fairly safe to assume that anything that the beastsnagga talker deemed to be not proppa orky is not going to be a release.

that Beast Snaga Warboss is the warboss in mega armor. He may have an alternative Beast Snaga build but is clearly the same big shoota gretchin on his shoulder.


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I would expect at least one of the wtwo remaining finecast units in the basic ork codex to get a new kit - kommandos or tankbustas.probably kommandos as it's easier to make tankbustas from plastic as-is (most ork troop kits come with a rokkit launcha compatible to any ork body, that's how most people I know make their tankbustas)

 the_scotsman wrote:
that Beast Snaga Warboss is the warboss in mega armor. He may have an alternative Beast Snaga build but is clearly the same big shoota gretchin on his shoulder.

Not really, the two orks have next to nothing in common. The beast snagga boss isn't even wearing mega-armour, which kind of makes sense for feral orks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would expect at least one of the wtwo remaining finecast units in the basic ork codex to get a new kit - kommandos or tankbustas.probably kommandos as it's easier to make tankbustas from plastic as-is (most ork troop kits come with a rokkit launcha compatible to any ork body, that's how most people I know make their tankbustas)

They literally used a famous scratch-build of kommandoz to depict them in the second video, there is a showballs chance in hell that they would make new ones.

They're doing the disaster they did with the SoB box where you can't buy the codex except in the box for "a short period of time" (which was like 3 months for SoB), so you'll presumably have plenty of time to figure out what's good and bad if you don't want to shell out for the box.

Cawl-pattern Choppas.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Cawl-pattern Choppas.

HARHARHARHARHAR.

You gonna ask "Where's the beef?" as an encore meme?

To the OP:
We don't know what upgrades are coming for Orks. We just know there's a large selection of new kits, and what we have seen via the Beast-Snaggas is supposed to be "only half of what's coming".

I ask because my second son plays orks and rants at great length about how bad their armor and wounds are and how desperately they need improvements to be viable on the table. I think he has some valid points and we have discussed what changes we would make, but I'm curious if anyone has any leads on what might be coming down the pike.

For what it's worth, ork armor has always sucked. If you want to play an army that can make saves, play space marines.

Shock attack tank please and a squiggoth

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I ask because my second son plays orks and rants at great length about how bad their armor and wounds are and how desperately they need improvements to be viable on the table. I think he has some valid points and we have discussed what changes we would make, but I'm curious if anyone has any leads on what might be coming down the pike.

For what it's worth, ork armor has always sucked. If you want to play an army that can make saves, play space marines.

Yeah, if you think the be-all and end-all of a decent army is good armour and multiple wounds on individual models, what the hell are you doing anywhere near Orks to begin with? I mean, sure, load up on Nobz and Meganobz if that's what you're after, but it's never been the army's general vibe.

 alextroy wrote:
Makes you wonder what the other half of the updated Kultur rule will be since 6+++ isn't something that could be better or worst for any type of model.

Actually yes it can. 6+++ helps more the more wounds you have. It is at best marginal to zero boost on W1 models.

tneva82 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Makes you wonder what the other half of the updated Kultur rule will be since 6+++ isn't something that could be better or worst for any type of model.

Actually yes it can. 6+++ helps more the more wounds you have. It is at best marginal to zero boost on W1 models.

No, it helps equally, provided you don't get overkilled.

You need to do 12 damage (from Damage 1 attacks) to kill ten 1 Wound models with a 6+++.
You need to do 12 damage (in any combination of attack Damages) to kill a 10-Wound model with a 6+++.

Sure, if your Ork Boys are getting bopped by D2 and D3 attacks, that 6+++ becomes practically useless, but your enemy is also wasting superior firepower on cheap models. It'd be much better for them to shoot Dark Lances and Meltas into Buggies, rather than Boys.

Eh, orks generally require you to pick between infantry and vehicles, so your opponent will always be shooting something inefficient at you. Not having and defense besides wound count kind of forces you to do that.

But outside of that, you are correct. Whether you ignore one in six damage dealt to 10 models with 1 wound or 1 model with 10 wounds makes little difference.

My bet is the new Ork infantry in the big box release will be a troop choice and be T5 while the existing Orks remain at T4. Primaris-izing Orks, so to speak

We already know that the infantry will be a troops choice called Beast Snagga Boyz.

T5 would be odd if nobz don't get T5 as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
We already know that the infantry will be a troops choice called Beast Snagga Boyz.

T5 would be odd if nobz don't get T5 as well.

Has it been mentioned that they're a Troops choice, though? They could be Elites.

TBH though, all non-GEQ infantries (troops or not) should be at 2W minimum.

Ghaz no longer degrades. He is now always A7 / M7 / S7.

His gun went from A12 to RF12. It might be nice to see big shootas go the RF route to try and make them a little better.

 skchsan wrote:
TBH though, all non-GEQ infantries (troops or not) should be at 2W minimum.

....why?

Eldar don't feel to me as someone who plays them that they should be 2W. having slightly better armor than GEQ is as much extra durability as they need to have, honestly.

To me, the thing that's felt weird about Eldar's durability is that they're wearing these hyper-advanced technosuits that look almost exactly like what a Tau trooper is wearing yet they're only T3 5+. T3 4+ on the troops with the fancy aspect warriors/incubi being T3 3+ is as durable as they need to be, and given kabalite warriors, seems the direction theyre headed.

if Orks need to get more durable, and I think yeah, they could use a little bit of a bump, it ought to be toughness, not wounds. Wounds would make them more durable vs single damage weaponry you're supposed to take to kill an ork, and less durable vs multidamage weaponry which ought to be less efficient vs orks. Other than MANZ being W3, I don't think any ork stuff should go up in wounds, and there's actually a few ork things I'd bring down in wounds if you asked me (like trukks. I'd prefer cheaper, flimsier trukks back please.)

T5, W1, 6+ with nobz at T5, W2, 4+ is the perfect place for the basic ork to be hanging out. It makes Heavy Boltguns and Assault Cannons and Shuriken Cannons the perfect heavy weaponry to bring them down, while making them tougher to scythe down with the boltguns that were made significantly safer and longer-ranged in post-2.0 space marines codex. Also provides a handy -1 to wound malus against common types of weaponry that would otherwise be able to just blow away regular nobz like Plasma, helping to differentiate them from the MEQ profile and make them not just 'bad assault intercessors.'

Orks' problem atm is that all the random extra S4 attacks marines got 'for free' leaves them dependent on spamming every available durability buff and leaning on the crutch of the super, super un-fun psychic power Da Jump, which totally just removes the core Ork gameplay pattern of the green tide surging forward and the heavy, longrange guns trying to cut some of them down before they're upon the enemy, replacing it with "30 orks per turn appear 9" away from the enemy line and hyper-reliably charge in and tie stuff up while the rest hang around on objectives waiting to be Jumped or Endless Green Tide'd right back to the front line."

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Great post, can't argue with any of it.

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
TBH though, all non-GEQ infantries (troops or not) should be at 2W minimum.

....why?

Going from T4 to T5 provides too great of a buff for a unit that's primarily designed as chaff. (going from T4 to T5 provides the biggest returns, than say T3 to T4, or T7 to T8)

It's one thing to bring/focus your S4/5 weapons against boyz, but it's another when you're forced to spend your anti-light vehicle (S6~S7) weapons against the boyz because your S4's weren't just cutting it. Boyz are arguably one of the toughest chaff units, but that still doesn't mean you should be pumping out S5 shots with occasional S6/7/8 against it. (it should be "pumping out S4 shots with occasional S5 against it").

But, that's just my opinion.

 Jidmah wrote:
Great post, can't argue with any of it.

It really is, enough said. I use da jump a lot but it does not feel very orky. I would much rather advance a tide of toughness 5 greenskins, mean and green, up the board. That is a real waagh. The increase in toughness would ensure we would have enough ladz alive when the time for krumpin comes.

I personally think the design space for Mob Rule can be used to increase the staying power of T4 infantries. Revise the rules to read:

Mob Rule:
When a unit with this rule suffers any casualties from enemy attacks, do not remove the slain models. Instead, after resolving the attacks, roll a d6 for each model that would've been lost as casualties. For each roll of 6+, a single model that would've been lost as casualty stays on the battlefield with 1W remaining. If the number of dice rolled in this manner is equal to or greater than it's Ld value, subtract 1 from the roll.

Then:

Keepin' Order
...When a friendly unit within 3" of unit with this rule takes Mob Rule test, add 1 to the roll

 addnid wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Great post, can't argue with any of it.

It really is, enough said. I use da jump a lot but it does not feel very orky. I would much rather advance a tide of toughness 5 greenskins, mean and green, up the board. That is a real waagh. The increase in toughness would ensure we would have enough ladz alive when the time for krumpin comes.

It seems that you've got yourself in the mental trap of "orks must be bad at 40k to be thematic."

Pulsa Rokkits were a gimmicky, weird ability that could swing games back in the day. Orks are all about weird strategies and abilities that humans would never think of, because they're crazy by human standards but cunning.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

Not quite. It has been a Weirboy power for quite a bit longer than just 8th, but back in the day you rolled d6 each time a boy cast a power vs a table and that's what you got. One of them was indeed Da jump where the weirdboy and whatever unit he was with did a deepstrike, which meant rolling for scatter. Occasionally it could just lead to the death of the unit if you scattered poorly meaning it wasn't used as often as these days.

It's more of an issue of precision deepstrike. I think da jump is really fine, it stops what's honestly some boring games i would have played where boyz weren't in combat for two turns. Burnabomma is also something i disagree with, i just think explosions should be like normal attacks, i'm not a huge fan of mortals.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

By 'endless green tide' i mean the stratagem that zoops an almost-dead unit off the board and (effectively) da jumps it at the opponent's army.

Green Tide as in lots of boyz is always going to be a staple of ork army setups. THer'es basically two choices - do you want your troops in Trukks, or do you want them in a green tide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

Also, no it hasn't, it was just called 'ere we go in previous editions. There's been an ork weirdboy power to deep strike a nearby ork unit since I started playing the game at the end of 4th edition.

 skchsan wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
TBH though, all non-GEQ infantries (troops or not) should be at 2W minimum.

....why?

Going from T4 to T5 provides too great of a buff for a unit that's primarily designed as chaff. (going from T4 to T5 provides the biggest returns, than say T3 to T4, or T7 to T8)

It's one thing to bring/focus your S4/5 weapons against boyz, but it's another when you're forced to spend your anti-light vehicle (S6~S7) weapons against the boyz because your S4's weren't just cutting it. Boyz are arguably one of the toughest chaff units, but that still doesn't mean you should be pumping out S5 shots with occasional S6/7/8 against it. (it should be "pumping out S4 shots with occasional S5 against it").

But, that's just my opinion.

That sounds perfect to me. It will make boyz and light vehicles a formidable combination.

Boyz are in no way among the toughest chaff. Theyre T4 6+ for either 7pts or 8 I dont remember. Incredibly easy to kill, guardsmen are tougher to remove from the board.

Currently 8, for... reasons.
Probably because grots are 5, and orks are better in multiple ways, so 1 or 2 points more doesn't make sense. Which feels like problem solving by creating more problems, but... ok.


The interesting thing is where Beastsnagga Boys fit into the range between boyz at 8 and nobz at 17 (or... 8, if they're in the boyz unit). If they manage to keep everything viable I'll be very impressed (and surprised). I suspect they'll have the same problems primaris did at launch (far too costly for what they do over the base unit), and require multiple revisions to fix.

Voss wrote:
Currently 8, for... reasons.
Probably because grots are 5, and orks are better in multiple ways, so 1 or 2 points more doesn't make sense. Which feels like problem solving by creating more problems, but... ok.


The interesting thing is where Beastsnagga Boys fit into the range between boyz at 8 and nobz at 17 (or... 8, if they're in the boyz unit). If they manage to keep everything viable I'll be very impressed (and surprised). I suspect they'll have the same problems primaris did at launch (far too costly for what they do over the base unit), and require multiple revisions to fix.

Let's be optimistic and say GW learned from the initial primaris points and rules release. I am setting euros aside for the 60 or so beast snagga ladz I will be compelled (I play in a comp environment) to buy (also I love the models). I think they will be like 10 points with really punchy rules, and relatively durable. Perhaps toughness 4 only but with a 5+++ (meaning a CFK would make them quite resilient to damage 1 shooty weapons). I hope we will be able to make them tank stuff, thus having a different way of playing the green tide thing:
- Boyz for the green tide playstyle we have now
- Beast snagga ladz for a new tide playstyle: lower numbers, but more resilience

I hope we soon get to know if the beast snaggas are troops or elite choices

I'm more hoping for lower number, but more punch. Especially our transport strategies are longing for units actually worth transporting.

If beastsnaggas are anything like the primaris release, they wont be able to fit in trucks or battlewagons, despite meganobz being able to somehow fit.

They will only use their own snagga transports because of their beliefs.

 skchsan wrote:
I personally think the design space for Mob Rule can be used to increase the staying power of T4 infantries. Revise the rules to read:

Mob Rule:
When a unit with this rule suffers any casualties from enemy attacks, do not remove the slain models. Instead, after resolving the attacks, roll a d6 for each model that would've been lost as casualties. For each roll of 6+, a single model that would've been lost as casualty stays on the battlefield with 1W remaining. If the number of dice rolled in this manner is equal to or greater than it's Ld value, subtract 1 from the roll.

Then:

Keepin' Order
...When a friendly unit within 3" of unit with this rule takes Mob Rule test, add 1 to the roll

Do you mean in addition to the current Mob rule or replacing it with this? This just seems like a weird ramshackle rule but for boys. How would this actually work in practice because my brain doesn't get it. My gut reaction was if this replaced the current mob rule then I hate it.

It’s similar to RP for Necrons, the way I see it.

cody.d. wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

Not quite. It has been a Weirboy power for quite a bit longer than just 8th, but back in the day you rolled d6 each time a boy cast a power vs a table and that's what you got. One of them was indeed Da jump where the weirdboy and whatever unit he was with did a deepstrike, which meant rolling for scatter. Occasionally it could just lead to the death of the unit if you scattered poorly meaning it wasn't used as often as these days.

I know I used it but i had completely forgotten about it before 8th's Da Jump.
I like having da Jump in my pocket but it seems to be more about forcing the other player to leave models back and around to screen the possibility than it is about actually being able to use it recently.
Late in 8th and now in 9th it's not been forgotten about by other players.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s similar to RP for Necrons, the way I see it.

Ah, got it. thanks!
I still need to chew this over, I don't know. I really really like the current Mob rule after suffering for all of 7th with that disaster of a Mob Rule.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

I know Da Jump was perfectly fine in many previous editions of the game, but the problem with it now is that it fundamentally changes the way that ork armies play. Part of the reason Orks have always been one of the most demanded opponents in terms of people wanting to play against them, is that they've historically not often been based on mechanics that seem unfair or un-interactive, even when they're strong. The units that they have that are competitve are just like "it's a smasha gun - it's a very good, good range, reliable antitank gun that is a fairly powerful attack for the points it costs." I think the Da Jump/Endless Green Tide boyz thing is kind of a lame mechanic, as is the flying headbutt plane as hilarious as that was all of the first time you played it as either an ork player or an ork opponent.

Boyz (and any ork unit really) needs to be able to be made tough enough with available durability upgrades to survive a trek across the board under the fire of a reasonable opposing TAC list. That's the healthy way forward.

Da Jump has literally only existed for one edition of the game so far, and that's 8th(and now 9th, unless they revamp and remove it in the new codex). I don't mind it, but I do think it can be overused. I do agree with you that Green Tide is a lame way to play, but it seems like time and time again any Ork list building just end up coming back to that particular strategy because it's the most reliable one for winning games. I'd love for a different army build to be viable.

I thought there was a version of it in an earlier edition that would drag the weirdboy along for the ride and could scatter?

 Jidmah wrote:
We already know that the infantry will be a troops choice called Beast Snagga Boyz.

T5 would be odd if nobz don't get T5 as well.

When did GW state Beast Snagga Boys were a Troop choice? The stream made no mention of it, but used the term 'vanguard.

Lets just agree primaris orks will get their second wound WELL before chaos space marines and grey knights

bat702 wrote:
Lets just agree primaris orks will get their second wound WELL before chaos space marines and grey knights

First we have to agree that there is such a thing as a Primaris Ork. There's not.

A\I do hope GW does give out those extra wounds, it sounds like those units need them. I'm sure they are too lazy to plop that into the relevant faq's and just waiting to sell the book, read the disappointment and drop a patch after the books have sold. GW's gunna GW after all.

bat702 wrote:
Lets just agree primaris orks will get their second wound WELL before chaos space marines and grey knights

Looks like grey knights are coming soon

It probably wont happen if Beast Snaggas are troops, but I'd like the option of Nobz as troops again. It was abused in 5th because of wound allocation, but I'd like the option of an elite ork army with lots of Nobz.

I'm hoping we get the super gretchin that zogrod used to be able to add to the army in 2nd ed.

Gretchin armies have always been a favourite of mine.

One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

Considering Orks' ballistic skill that would be a pretty strong boost to their shooting power, especially for something like Tankbustas. Maybe they restrict it to some weapons or weapon types (all variants of shootas for example).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

Considering Orks' ballistic skill that would be a pretty strong boost to their shooting power, especially for something like Tankbustas. Maybe they restrict it to some weapons or weapon types (all variants of shootas for example).

They'd definitely need to step carefully with some interactions with certain weapons, but TBs don't get used all the much at present.

DDD could wind up being 6s to hit auto wound - that doesn't fit so well. I just can't see them sticking to the old method.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
One thing I'm pretty sure of - DDD will change to be like tesla, so, 6s cause an extra hit. Then More DDD can be 2 hits. I can't think of any 9th codex ability that produces more rolling.

Considering Orks' ballistic skill that would be a pretty strong boost to their shooting power, especially for something like Tankbustas. Maybe they restrict it to some weapons or weapon types (all variants of shootas for example).

Would that be bad though? Even for "insane" levels of shooting like tankbustas or lootas, we are talking about 7.5 rokkit hits instead of 5.83 or 22.5 instead of 17.5 extra loota hits compared to before.

If you consider the trend of unit options getting reduced to what's in the box, tank bustas might get forced to take 3 tankhammers and 3 pairs of rokkit pistols while lootas lose 3 deff guns to mandatory spannas. The net gain would be rather low, while many other shooting units would get the help they need.

It also fits their run and gun style. Now that -1 doesn't mean lots of futile dice rolls.

As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.

Current Dakka Dakka Dakka is equivalent to RR1s to-hit.
If DDD changes to 6s to-hit score an extra hit, it'd become equivalent to +1 BS.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.

Current Dakka Dakka Dakka is equivalent to RR1s to-hit.
If DDD changes to 6s to-hit score an extra hit, it'd become equivalent to +1 BS.

If you only look at averages, that's true. The difference is that +1 BS makes weapons more reliable, while extra hits on sixes make weapons more swingy.

 Jidmah wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.

Current Dakka Dakka Dakka is equivalent to RR1s to-hit.
If DDD changes to 6s to-hit score an extra hit, it'd become equivalent to +1 BS.

If you only look at averages, that's true. The difference is that +1 BS makes weapons more reliable, while extra hits on sixes make weapons more swingy.

While I would tend to agree with your assessment when it comes to small numbers of shots, in a full squad of shoota boyz, there is so much dices to roll that an extra hit on a 6 vs +1 to BS becomes virtually the same.

I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.

So, if it's true they do away with some of the rolling, what do you think will happen to the Flash Gitz' show off rule? A simple +1BS when they destroy a unit instead of rolling for additional shooting?

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.

Well I would qualify it indeed as mediocre in proper sense of the term as in average and unremarkable, but not in the sometime used sense of bad or poor. I used this setup and it did got the job done (more or less) though I'm not the kind of player that participate in competition so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
So, if it's true they do away with some of the rolling, what do you think will happen to the Flash Gitz' show off rule? A simple +1BS when they destroy a unit instead of rolling for additional shooting?

That's just a single roll though, it's unlikely that they streamline that.

The issue with dakka³ is that every time an ork unit shoots, you have to count sixes and roll some additional dice, which is fun but also time consuming. Halving that time while buffing orks against -1 to hit that hits them harder than any other army seems like decent idea.


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epronovost wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.

Well I would qualify it indeed as mediocre in proper sense of the term as in average and unremarkable, but not in the sometime used sense of bad or poor. I used this setup and it did got the job done (more or less) though I'm not the kind of player that participate in competition so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".

 Jidmah wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
So, if it's true they do away with some of the rolling, what do you think will happen to the Flash Gitz' show off rule? A simple +1BS when they destroy a unit instead of rolling for additional shooting?

That's just a single roll though, it's unlikely that they streamline that.

The issue with dakka³ is that every time an ork unit shoots, you have to count sixes and roll some additional dice, which is fun but also time consuming. Halving that time while buffing orks against -1 to hit that hits them harder than any other army seems like decent idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.

Well I would qualify it indeed as mediocre in proper sense of the term as in average and unremarkable, but not in the sometime used sense of bad or poor. I used this setup and it did got the job done (more or less) though I'm not the kind of player that participate in competition so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".

I mean, a full mob of 30 does an average of 10 wounds to guardsmen... So, you could reliably wipe out a squad of them every turn? But you'd have to do that every turn to make back your points.

Yikes...

 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".

On top of my head I would say a bunch of termagants, hormagaunts, gargoyles, regular guardsmen, most Genestealer cult infantry, Kroots, Choppa Boyz. In a pinch I would use them against stuff like Scions, Dire Avengers, Wytches. Anything that is low armor and low toughness is a good target and since shootas are fairly cheap they don't suffer much from shooting at other cheap units. Is there better stuff to deal with those units on a point for point basis, probably, but shootas can do it.

epronovost wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".

On top of my head I would say a bunch of termagants, hormagaunts, gargoyles, regular guardsmen, most Genestealer cult infantry, Kroots, Choppa Boyz. In a pinch I would use them against stuff like Scions, Dire Avengers, Wytches. Anything that is low armor and low toughness is a good target and since shootas are fairly cheap they don't suffer much from shooting at other cheap units. Is there better stuff to deal with those units on a point for point basis, probably, but shootas can do it.

60 shots, assuming 30 Boys with Shootas.

That's an average of 23.33 hits.
Against T3, 15.56 wounds.
Against a 6+, that's just shy of 13 dead. Just over 10 for a 5+.

 JNAProductions wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't really matter how competitive your gaming is. I don't think there is any unit in the game right now for that you'd go "oh, shoota boyz will definitely do a good job killing that with their shootas".

On top of my head I would say a bunch of termagants, hormagaunts, gargoyles, regular guardsmen, most Genestealer cult infantry, Kroots, Choppa Boyz. In a pinch I would use them against stuff like Scions, Dire Avengers, Wytches. Anything that is low armor and low toughness is a good target and since shootas are fairly cheap they don't suffer much from shooting at other cheap units. Is there better stuff to deal with those units on a point for point basis, probably, but shootas can do it.

60 shots, assuming 30 Boys with Shootas.

That's an average of 23.33 hits.
Against T3, 15.56 wounds.
Against a 6+, that's just shy of 13 dead. Just over 10 for a 5+.

That's pretty much what I thought too. About 10 casualty per round of shooting. It's enough to accomplish a task like blunting an upcoming charge, clearing an objective, weakening an enemy and it's not enough for the enemy to press the panic button and destroy it ASAP like a looming squad of Nobz or Meganobz ends up. Making consistent, but low damage over longer period is more of their shtick. Sure choppa boyz are flashier since a charge from a big squad of them can erase most problems very quickly, but I think the shootas decidedly deserve their title as a "meh" kind of unit.

Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.

 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.

Yes that is what does shoota boyz in. If they rolled to hit without neg penalties in the shooting phase (like drukhari trueborn) and/or had better range they could be interesting.

 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.

No, it's indeed not good, but it's not that bad either. Plus, for 240 points it does more than kill stuff it can score objective or contest them, sponge damage for other, much more destructive units, etc. They aren't good, they are mediocre in the proper sense of the term.

 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.

Shoota boyz are weird, because you have to throw them into melee, too. They're still respectable there. Is putting out wounds at range and having 75% of the attacks make them much worse than choppas? Maybe if choppas had AP.

Statistically speaking, a Shoota Boy in a large mob who shoots and then charges averages 2.78 S4 hits, while a Slugga Boy averages 3.06.

So in terms of raw damage, in one turn a Shoota Boy averages only slightly less, while having more of that damage being applied at range. They're not that dissimilar. I would think problems with Shoota Boyz reflect more on problems with Boyz in general.

My regular Ork opponent likes Shoota Boyz simply because a mob of 30 can all shoot after Da Jumping, whereas when they charge it'll be unlikely for more than half to get into combat. He also plays Bad Moons, which gives those Shootas comparable damage to Sluggas rather than less.

I think it's 3.06 vs 3.17 - you missed DDD on the Shootas? Not that it matters much.

1 * 1.167 * .333 = 0.39
4 * .666 = 2.67

3 * 1.167 * .333 = 1.17
3 * .666 = 2




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Makes for a pretty handy unit if they get some interesting guns. Come on new grot kit!

Hmmm, interesting. But you get the same effect from having over 20 in a mob. (Or at least, you do right now.) The action and shoot could be quite useful though.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
As someone who plays mainly shoota boyz, I can assure you that DDD is good but not great. It's a helpful boost to ork shooting, but it's far from "mow down entire squads of space marines" good.

DDD is "Meh" at best. its a 1/6th chance to gain a 1/3rd chance to hit. You will always have those fun stories about the time you fired a rokkit and ended up with 2 hits but for every story like that there are a plethora of "didn't do anything" rolls you forgot about.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that a full squad of shoota boyz is one of the units that could get +1BS free of charge and still be mediocre.

 Jidmah wrote:
Everyone's math is correct, of course.

However, what you are missing is that this unit of shoota boyz costs 240 points.

10 casualties against units that cost 5-8 points per model is not good by any metric, especially not if it requires getting 30 models in 18" range without any intervening terrain whatsoever.

exactly this. A 240pt shooting unit that is built like a glass cannon (1W T4 with a 6+ save) should be inflicting massive dmg initially because they won't be sticking around long on the battlefield. And being able to kill just under 2 Marines a turn isn't exactly "massive" dmg. Bumping them to BS4 AND keeping DDD (Current iteration) bumps their Dmg from under 4dmg to Just under 6. So even giving them a full +1 BS Shoota boyz struggle to kill 54pts of Space Marines a turn..or 60pts if you upgrade them to intercessors.

if DDD gets buffed to be an extra auto-hit it would increase their dmg again to 6.6dmg. So again, still not even ground breaking, and sadly as someone already mentioned, I have a fear that if DDD does get the auto-hit upgrade they will change the rule to only effect shoota type weapons which would be a MASSIVE nerf to Orkz. While incredibly swingy and random, I'd gladly keep the CHANCE of exploding rokkitz and Smasha gunz over a guaranteed extra hit on shoota type weapons.

Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.

 Blackie wrote:
Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.

We know kanz and mek gunz won't be CORE in the codex, but perhaps we will get a way of turning them into CORE units if x and y condition is met. But for mek gunz, if they have a way of getting CORE, then I don't think 40 points smasha gunz will still be a thing. If we have a way of getting smahsas to hit on 3s, then we are looking at 45-50 point smashas at the very least... Unless we get drukhari levels of "point efficiency"

There is no precedent for a unit gaining CORE for any reason though. I'd be very suprised if mek guns get that keyword, they are the kind of unit for which they specifically created this keyword.

When you look at drukhari and necrons, the only non-infantry units likely to get CORE are deff dreads, warbikers and the new squighog riders.
Beyond that kanz and koptas are the only units which I feel like they have even a sliver of a chance to become core. Any other vehicles and characters will definitely not get it.

Kanz probably should be Core but I can imagine them not being so because Grots are bad mmmk.

I fear Mek Guns will be nerfed into oblivion - although with the modern GW design paradigm who knows. (Max squad of 3 perhaps would serve as a limiter if armies of 18 offend.)

 Jidmah wrote:
There is no precedent for a unit gaining CORE for any reason though. I'd be very suprised if mek guns get that keyword, they are the kind of unit for which they specifically created this keyword.

When you look at drukhari and necrons, the only non-infantry units likely to get CORE are deff dreads, warbikers and the new squighog riders.
Beyond that kanz and koptas are the only units which I feel like they have even a sliver of a chance to become core. Any other vehicles and characters will definitely not get it.

Talos and Cronos, which are monsters, are also CORE. If dreads get to have the keywork I don't see why kanz shouldn't get it. Mek Gunz I agree, that would be something new and they probably won't get the keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:


I fear Mek Guns will be nerfed into oblivion - although with the modern GW design paradigm who knows. (Max squad of 3 perhaps would serve as a limiter if armies of 18 offend.)

Doubt it, they're the most expensive ork kit and one of the most expensive in the entire GW catalogue. I expect different loadouts to be the new go-to rather than nerfing the whole unit, like traktors of bubblechukkas. Putting a cap on the squadron could be reasonable, as not many players typically buy or would be willing to buy in the future more than 9 of them anyway.

 Blackie wrote:
Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.

Yeah, i doubt anything but regular gretchins will be CORE. if Killa Kanz get core (I mean, they're walkers, GW, every other walker has been, eh? eh?) then he'll be very very good but I do sincerely doubt it.

Hilariously this makes him even less useful in my over-2000pt all grots all the time army, because I plan on losing an average of 40-50 grots per turn usually, and if I take this dude, the first 30 will just be the super ones absolutely no doubt.

 Blackie wrote:
Super Runts could be amazing if Mek Gunz get the CORE keyword. Could be nice on kanz as well, but I fear that only standard gretchins will be CORE. BS3+ with S3 no AP 12'' weapons is not tempting at all. Besides, large units of gretchins get a native +1 to hit anyway.

However the new character also have the fighting last rule that could be extremely useful.

Lets be honest, grots suck and have no use except as cheap troop choices to fill requirements, they are a "Tax" unit at best. In 8th they were "good" but only because they were again, cheap troop choices to be CP batteries, they also had their 1 strat that did what? killed them. Apparently that upset a lot of people because now grotz had an actual purpose, luckily with the nerf to "Mob up" the loota bomb went away and grot shields is no longer something used that often.

Giving 1 unit of grots +1 to hit would do nothing to alleviate their biggest issues that you mentioned. T2, 6+ save, 12' pistols at S3. The unit is armed like it wants to be in or near CC but has no benefit to being near CC and dies so ridiculously fast. So either make them dirt cheap, which GW won't do since 5ppm is the cheapest they want to go, make them ridiculously durable...which is exactly what grots shouldn't be. Or give them some kind of benefit I.E special rules that makes them worth 5ppm or gives them a use for +1 to hit...maybe give them actual weapons?

Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…

What I am really curious about is how they will treat flash gitz and morka Gorka nauts

 addnid wrote:
Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…

On one hand, GW sees grots and squigs as comedy units with "funny but useless" rules. On the other hand, grots with funny but useless rules are an irritatingly large portion of the ork releases we get.

Hankovitch wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…

On one hand, GW sees grots and squigs as comedy units with "funny but useless" rules. On the other hand, grots with funny but useless rules are an irritatingly large portion of the ork releases we get.

I sure love getting miniatures released for my army that are nothing but "funny but useless" with little actual value on the table. Goodness knows that I just love to pack these units into every army list that I can continue to lose all my games of 40k. /eyeroll

I actually really like the idea of gretchin as a concept, but I do recognize that they never had the greatest of rules. And now that they're five points apiece I doubt they'll see much time on the table, at least in my armies. Seriously have no idea what GW was thinking when adjusting those points.

I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

 addnid wrote:
Grots are also a kind of comic relief, and As such I think GW doesn’t mind them being really bad and not having much use. There are tons of cool ideas floating around for grots, suicides bombers (like sguig bombs), snipers, SSAG ammo, etc. But I am skeptical GW has any such plans…

What I am really curious about is how they will treat flash gitz and morka Gorka nauts

Hell, you could make grots worthwhile without doing any of that and preserving their identity as some of the worst units in the game at combat - theyve introduced actions into the game. give grots special abilities relating to making them good at scoring/actions, and that's a role that doesn't make you have to make them equally good at combat to units like guardsmen.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

Yes, assuming they keep the current attributes, to be worthy of the 5ppm cost they need some useful special rules, like native grot shield ability for anything that is placed behind them. Or maybe a rule that prevents them from being targeted from anything that is more than X'' away from them (8''-12'' maybe), as you know they're so tiny that they should be almost invisible .

 Blackie wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

Yes, assuming they keep the current attributes, to be worthy of the 5ppm cost they need some useful special rules, like native grot shield ability for anything that is placed behind them. Or maybe a rule that prevents them from being targeted from anything that is more than X'' away from them (8''-12'' maybe), as you know they're so tiny that they should be almost invisible .

That would work well actually, but it could be too strong. Or perhaps just give grots a native -1 to hit, or enemy units lose their rerolls when shooting them, because they are such a small target with small hitboxes
Why not both ! Make grots great again ! Make them hard to hit when shooting (they will still die to anything in CC).

 addnid wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I just have an issue with 5 point grots cause grots are meant to be t2 s2 little goobers, but that's just not worth 5 points (unless maybe they can't be hit on better than a 5+ or somethin)

Yes, assuming they keep the current attributes, to be worthy of the 5ppm cost they need some useful special rules, like native grot shield ability for anything that is placed behind them. Or maybe a rule that prevents them from being targeted from anything that is more than X'' away from them (8''-12'' maybe), as you know they're so tiny that they should be almost invisible .

That would work well actually, but it could be too strong. Or perhaps just give grots a native -1 to hit, or enemy units lose their rerolls when shooting them, because they are such a small target with small hitboxes
Why not both ! Make grots great again ! Make them hard to hit when shooting (they will still die to anything in CC).

And flamers and blast weapons still work perfectly well against them, I like it. Quite thematic.

Native -1 to hit would be a good way to give grots the same level of defenses as comparable units (guardsman, brimstone horror, etc) without making them seem 'too strong to be grots'

I do think something like an unreliable grot shields (like on a 4+) as an always-on ability and something to do with them being good at doing objectives would be better than boosting up their combat capabilities.

As it stands a guardsman has vastly better defenses (T2 Sv7+ vs T3 Sv5+, also with lower leadership) and more than 2x the firepower at range, so they could use something. -1 to hit and unreliable grot shields would probably do it.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Native -1 to hit would be a good way to give grots the same level of defenses as comparable units (guardsman, brimstone horror, etc) without making them seem 'too strong to be grots'

I do think something like an unreliable grot shields (like on a 4+) as an always-on ability and something to do with them being good at doing objectives would be better than boosting up their combat capabilities.

As it stands a guardsman has vastly better defenses (T2 Sv7+ vs T3 Sv5+, also with lower leadership) and more than 2x the firepower at range, so they could use something. -1 to hit and unreliable grot shields would probably do it.

In slight fairness to grotz, they do get a 6+ save now, But since most anti-infantry weapons these days are S4 and S5, that means you are wounding grotz on a 2+ almost always and guardsmen on a 3+ Throw in their better armor save and leadership and suddenly its not even a contest, now add in their special rules and the range of their weapons and access to support weapons and now its just a joke.

I like the idea of grotz being -1 to hit for themselves AS WELL as all units behind them. They still suck at dmg, they still suck in CC and they are still ridiculously easy to kill, but now they at least offer a small bonus to all units behind them. The 4+ grot shields....is ok on top of that I guess, but honestly the fact remains that all of this still just makes grots an extra 5pt wound. Giving orkz a 2nd wound for 5pts sounds ridiculous on its own, hell Space Marines got one for like 2pts. I really want grots to be good, but at the moment they are just terrible.

I think it would be extremely "wwwwwhhhaacky!" if the grots had a -1 to hit themselves but a 3+ or even 2+ chance to pass off wounds targeted at units behind them onto their own unit.

That way, they're too quick and jumpy and small to target directly but if you're shooting at anything else they're accidentally "dodging" into the way.

Rihgu wrote:
I think it would be extremely "wwwwwhhhaacky!" if the grots had a -1 to hit themselves but a 3+ or even 2+ chance to pass off wounds targeted at units behind them onto their own unit.

That way, they're too quick and jumpy and small to target directly but if you're shooting at anything else they're accidentally "dodging" into the way.

Sounds proper orky to me

eh. I honestly don't think grots are *that* terrible right now, they're definitely not the 'core' unit of the faction the way guardsmen are, but they are a 50pt unit that's very easy to hide behind an objective and score points with. I would seriously unironically rather bring my 2000pt all grot stuff army into a more serious game than my gsc, tsons or tau, and that's like the silliest meme list around.

...mostly I chalk that up to grot tanks finally being usable but grots with Cheeky Zoggerz and a nearby paingrot persistently irritate my opponents.

 the_scotsman wrote:
eh. I honestly don't think grots are *that* terrible right now, they're definitely not the 'core' unit of the faction the way guardsmen are, but they are a 50pt unit that's very easy to hide behind an objective and score points with. I would seriously unironically rather bring my 2000pt all grot stuff army into a more serious game than my gsc, tsons or tau, and that's like the silliest meme list around.

...mostly I chalk that up to grot tanks finally being usable but grots with Cheeky Zoggerz and a nearby paingrot persistently irritate my opponents.

Right, but what do Grots do right now besides exist and score objectives for you? Not a damn thing. What did grots gain between 8th and 9th that justified a 66% increase in price? were grots OP in 8th? No, they were god awful, but were great for cheap CP batteries and for dying in droves to protect a loota bomb.

Loota bombs don't exist anymore, you are actively punished for bringing multiple detachments now, so why the 66% increase now? At 3pts they are a "meh" throw away scoring unit, at 5pts they are massively over priced.

Keep in mind, all of this is talking about grot troops rather than anything else. I'm not talking about grot tanks or Killakanz, just grots. Compare them to any other troop choice in the game right now, is there any that are worse? (honest question I don't think their are).

Weeellll.... In 9th edition, the ability to perform actions does make a "stand there and do nothing" unit more valuable to your strategy than before, all other things remaining the same. For instance, in 8th edition, you simply would never have a good reason to Da Jump a throwaway unit of ten grots behind enemy lines. Currently, doing exactly that could net you a significant number of victory points (or deny them to the enemy). Hell, kommandos suddenly became more valuable in 9th just to step into the board and Deploy Scramblers.

So, the rules for matched/tournament play have enhanced the value of grots without any changes to stats and rules. That being said, I'm undecided whether there is enough value there to warrant them being 5ppm.

Hankovitch wrote:
Weeellll.... In 9th edition, the ability to perform actions does make a "stand there and do nothing" unit more valuable to your strategy than before, all other things remaining the same. For instance, in 8th edition, you simply would never have a good reason to Da Jump a throwaway unit of ten grots behind enemy lines. Currently, doing exactly that could net you a significant number of victory points (or deny them to the enemy). Hell, kommandos suddenly became more valuable in 9th just to step into the board and Deploy Scramblers.

So, the rules for matched/tournament play have enhanced the value of grots without any changes to stats and rules. That being said, I'm undecided whether there is enough value there to warrant them being 5ppm.

"Stand there and do nothing" and also be wounded by 95% of all the weapons in the game on a 2+ with a 6+ save, no access to stratagems besides one that kills them basically and unable to be buffed for the most part.

So yeah, they can stand there and score a point as well as any other unit in the game, but that is literally all they can do since they are armed with S3 pistols and are useless in CC. So they hold a point but cant project any threat or force at all.

Hankovitch wrote:
Weeellll.... In 9th edition, the ability to perform actions does make a "stand there and do nothing" unit more valuable to your strategy than before, all other things remaining the same. For instance, in 8th edition, you simply would never have a good reason to Da Jump a throwaway unit of ten grots behind enemy lines. Currently, doing exactly that could net you a significant number of victory points (or deny them to the enemy). Hell, kommandos suddenly became more valuable in 9th just to step into the board and Deploy Scramblers.

So, the rules for matched/tournament play have enhanced the value of grots without any changes to stats and rules. That being said, I'm undecided whether there is enough value there to warrant them being 5ppm.

Why would you bring a unit of gretchin for 50 if you can have a unit kommandoz do that job better in every way for 45?

Especially in regards to orks, points per model don't make for cheap units if you have to bring a lot of them to get a viable unit. 10 gretchin aren't worth 50 points because they are so easy to kill. A unit of guardsmen, poxwalkers or kommadoz is super durable in comparison.

SemperMortis wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
eh. I honestly don't think grots are *that* terrible right now, they're definitely not the 'core' unit of the faction the way guardsmen are, but they are a 50pt unit that's very easy to hide behind an objective and score points with. I would seriously unironically rather bring my 2000pt all grot stuff army into a more serious game than my gsc, tsons or tau, and that's like the silliest meme list around.

...mostly I chalk that up to grot tanks finally being usable but grots with Cheeky Zoggerz and a nearby paingrot persistently irritate my opponents.

Right, but what do Grots do right now besides exist and score objectives for you? Not a damn thing. What did grots gain between 8th and 9th that justified a 66% increase in price?

two big things really. And again, this comes from someone who regularly plays grot-focused 2k army lists.

1 - morale is no longer a thing that allows you to effectively wipe the remaining 50% of a large squad, and instead is something that generally in the most extreme circumstance kills like 5 models in a totally unprotected squad

2 - actions and other secondaries allow grots to contribute much more toward winning the game than they used to.

I get more out of fielding 5pt grots in 9th than I did out of fielding 3pt grots in 8th.

But grots in 9th are completely useless as kommandos do the exact same job for less points, while also having natural deepstrike, more staying power and better offensive abilities. 5 stormboyz are just 10 points more expensive than 10 gretchins, and also extremely better than the little fellas in doing the same job; 10 boyz are just 30 points than 10 gretchins and hundred times better.

In 9th there's really no point in taking gretchins unless there's a problem of models availability.

 Blackie wrote:
But grots in 9th are completely useless as kommandos do the exact same job for less points, while also having natural deepstrike, more staying power and better offensive abilities. 5 stormboyz are just 10 points more expensive than 10 gretchins, and also extremely better than the little fellas in doing the same job; 10 boyz are just 30 points than 10 gretchins and hundred times better.

In 9th there's really no point in taking gretchins unless there's a problem of models availability.

The question of 'does anything else do the same job arguably better' was not what I was asked to answer. What I was asked was 'how did gretchin improve from 8th to 9th to warrant a points increase'? which I answered. I get better use out of my grots in 9th than 8th. I can actually play my 2k all-grot list fairly effectively, it's kind of hilarious tbh.

Yeah IMO grots are overpriced. If you asked me to design them, I'd make additional gretchin over the min size cost less. I think theyd be about right at 4ppm with maybe one small additional rule or bonus.

 Blackie wrote:
But grots in 9th are completely useless as kommandos do the exact same job for less points, while also having natural deepstrike, more staying power and better offensive abilities. 5 stormboyz are just 10 points more expensive than 10 gretchins, and also extremely better than the little fellas in doing the same job; 10 boyz are just 30 points than 10 gretchins and hundred times better.

In 9th there's really no point in taking gretchins unless there's a problem of models availability.

10 grots take 10 wounds. 5 kommandoz take 5. There is a limited amount of shooting that can reach a unit that is OOLOS. Kommandoz can pick up better cover, but is that going to make them visible?

One should use both units, really.

10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

Sure, but you've completely bottomed out grots at that point.

they take 14-15 hits...of any strength 4 or above, any AP 0 and above.

In my experience with them, that tends to make them quite a bit more frustrating to deal with when you look at armies like Space Marines who tend to add strength and AP to be good at killing things. Especially because the defenses you can give them (like a 6++ from cheeky zoggers) are also agnostic to incoming attack quality.

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

The issue is that if you make grots t3 and a 5+ save, they're not grots. The design space for grots is that they're t2 and like a nothin save. I'd be fine payin 5 points if they just got a free grot shield or somethin lol, just have em be extra wounds for 3 points.

Grots probably don't perform as well vs Deathskull Kommandos or Stormboyz, simply because those units can perform a similar roll for similar cost, as well as do way more (infiltrate for free, Stormboyz can zoom out 18" guaranteed then potentially charge).

Grots probably outperform 10 boys, though, in terms their actual game impact. 30 points is a lot in an Ork army, and grots are just cheaper action bots. 10 Boys output is not enough to be interesting in our bad matchups.

If boys actually get killy maybe this cost-benefit between the two changes.

I think we're kind of forgetting that those other units are not typically obsec and take up potentially useful slots depending on what new units pop out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think we're kind of forgetting that those other units are not typically obsec and take up potentially useful slots depending on what new units pop out.

I am referring to the current codex, of course. We have no idea what the new codex will bring in terms of unit usefulness.

Ork Elite slots are uncompetitive so taking 3 x 5 kommandos is rarely ever going to be an issue. Fast attack is definitely hyper competitive, though, given how useful Deff Koptas, Buggies, and Stormboyz are. I'd even argue Nob Bikers are alright given their 30 ppm base cost and 3 wounds.

As it is though, Grots are pretty bad for their cost given 9th edition codexes. Like a poxwalker is 5 ppm... you can't tell me a grot even pales to a poxwalker.

Point per wound, grots are more expensive than scarabs I believe (they are 14?), and those can even get obsec *and* fly.

Right now, unless you're packing a Goff Skarboy tide, Ork troops are really, really uninteresting. Grots are just filler for screening and action bots; 10 boys just aren't worth the 80 points you spend (again, compare this to like.. 5 assault intercessors for 95 or something).

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

The issue is that if you make grots t3 and a 5+ save, they're not grots. The design space for grots is that they're t2 and like a nothin save. I'd be fine payin 5 points if they just got a free grot shield or somethin lol, just have em be extra wounds for 3 points.

If they were still 3pts you might have an argument here, but they aren't 3pts anymore, they are 5pts. A notoriously under powered Chaos cultist is 5ppm as well, it comes standard with a 24' rapid fire gun as opposed to a 12' pistol. A cultist has +1 movement, +1 WS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 LD (+2 with champion) and the same save. Keeping in mind I am not saying cultists are good in any way, shape or form. I am merely pointing out that a pathetically weak unit like cultists is actually.....significantly more powerful than grots.


So lets break down the problems. 1: Its already a unit with a kit which means you can't "add" new weapons/gear without pushing out a new kit so you have to work with the stats rather than the equipment for the most part. 2: The unit is pathetically under powered. 3: The unit needs a unique design space to fill a role that isn't done better or cheaper than other ork units.

So with that in mind you are left with statlines to play with. We can't utilize their better BS without a new kit to give them better guns, you could buff their WS and make them better in CC but....why? Orkz are already good at CC and a grot can't be better pt for pt than an Ork boy. So you are now basically left with Toughness, wounds and Save. I think T3 with a 5+ puts them in a position where they are basically as durable as an ork boy but without any dmg potential, this gives them a place in the game as a relatively cheap objective holder that is at least slightly harder to remove from play.

Baking in "Grot shield" sounds good except yet again, they aren't 3ppm anymore they are 5 and GW seems hellbent on not letting units get any cheaper than 5ppm. With that in mind, I don't know about you but 5pt grot shields seems a bit too expensive for my taste.

5ppm grot shields are no different than 15ppm tau shield drones.

One could justify T3 for gretchin for the "orky" tougthness but I can't see to justify a 5+ for what are basically naked green babies.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Grots take 14-15 S4 AP0 hits to kill.
5 Kommandos take 12 of the same to kill.

10 grots are also 10% more expensive than 5 kommandos. The pt for pt comparison would be 9 grots vs 5 kommandos and to kill 9 grots it takes 13 shots. Now add in the benefits of cover and kulture and stratagems and the fact that kommandos can actually inflict dmg on units while grots really cant. Grots shouldn't be more than 3pts at the absolute extreme, that or they need a fairly hefty buff. Going to T3 and giving them a 5+ save would actually make them worth 5ppm since it would make them more durable than 5 kommandos while also continuing to make them functionally useless in actual combat.

The issue is that if you make grots t3 and a 5+ save, they're not grots. The design space for grots is that they're t2 and like a nothin save. I'd be fine payin 5 points if they just got a free grot shield or somethin lol, just have em be extra wounds for 3 points.

I've been at this too long. Gretchin at T2 is still super weird to me. When did that demotion happen?

Voss wrote:

I've been at this too long. Gretchin at T2 is still super weird to me. When did that demotion happen?

3rd edition codex. I literally just pulled out my books to double check.

Fun fact: back in 2nd edition gretchin were 5pts/each but could be taken in mobs of 10-40 and had autoguns and flak armor(6+ save).

 Galas wrote:
5ppm grot shields are no different than 15ppm tau shield drones.

One could justify T3 for gretchin for the "orky" tougthness but I can't see to justify a 5+ for what are basically naked green babies.

Very valid point except that those 15ppm Tau Shield drones are T4 and have both a 4+ save, a 4+ invulnerable save, a 5+ FNP save and has TWICE the movement of a grot.

So that shield drone is wounding on 4s instead of 2 against anti-infantry weapons, and has a 50% save chance as opposed to the 16.6% the grot has, not to mention its an invuln save ohh AND it has a 5+ FNP save.

Raw numbers time. 9 grots take 13 bolter hits to kill. 3 shield drones (same points cost) take 18 bolter shots to kill. (18 shots = 9 wounds = 4.5 failed saves, 4.5 failed saves = 3 failed FNP rolls = 3 dead shield drones). And there is also the fact that those shield drones don't have to spend CP to sacrifice themselves to save an 80+pt model (assuming its on a broadside).

tulun wrote:

Ork Elite slots are uncompetitive so taking 3 x 5 kommandos is rarely ever going to be an issue. Fast attack is definitely hyper competitive, though, given how useful Deff Koptas, Buggies, and Stormboyz are. I'd even argue Nob Bikers are alright given their 30 ppm base cost and 3 wounds.

Meganobz are actually pretty useful now, especially in the middle of the board. Add a banner nob to that (nullifying the -1 hit of klaws and killsaws) and you're using 2 of 3 elite slots.

A squad or two of grots in your deployment zone gives you some tactical flexibility for doing mission actions, along with potentially serving as grot shields against turn 1 fire. I've been running both a squad of kommandos and a squad of grots for Deploy Scramblers, and am pretty happy with both. Grots handle the friendly/middle actions, kommandos are dedicated for the enemy-zone action.

I think 5ppm is probably still too expensive; going to 4 would be fine by me. But they're definitely more useful in 9th than 8th.

Hankovitch wrote:

tulun wrote:

Ork Elite slots are uncompetitive so taking 3 x 5 kommandos is rarely ever going to be an issue. Fast attack is definitely hyper competitive, though, given how useful Deff Koptas, Buggies, and Stormboyz are. I'd even argue Nob Bikers are alright given their 30 ppm base cost and 3 wounds.

Meganobz are actually pretty useful now, especially in the middle of the board. Add a banner nob to that (nullifying the -1 hit of klaws and killsaws) and you're using 2 of 3 elite slots.

A squad or two of grots in your deployment zone gives you some tactical flexibility for doing mission actions, along with potentially serving as grot shields against turn 1 fire. I've been running both a squad of kommandos and a squad of grots for Deploy Scramblers, and am pretty happy with both. Grots handle the friendly/middle actions, kommandos are dedicated for the enemy-zone action.

I think 5ppm is probably still too expensive; going to 4 would be fine by me. But they're definitely more useful in 9th than 8th.

You get 6 Elite slots dude.

Mega nobs are fine, but 6 elite slots is buckets for Orks.

If I had to guess I'd say cost will be upgraded on the new kits. So I'd suggest getting yourself nice and ready before hand. At least they'll look cool.

Hankovitch wrote:


I think 5ppm is probably still too expensive; going to 4 would be fine by me. But they're definitely more useful in 9th than 8th.

They were actually extremely useful in 8th as grot shields was a thing for popular units like lootas and flash gitz. Now both units became overcosted and taking multiple detachment costs CPs, so Bad Moons lootas shooting twice are also not a thing anymore unless going full Bad Moons.

And flooding the board with 90-120 ultra cheap dudes was useful even in 8th.

 Blackie wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:


I think 5ppm is probably still too expensive; going to 4 would be fine by me. But they're definitely more useful in 9th than 8th.

They were actually extremely useful in 8th as grot shields was a thing for popular units like lootas and flash gitz. Now both units became overcosted and taking multiple detachment costs CPs, so Bad Moons lootas shooting twice are also not a thing anymore unless going full Bad Moons.

And flooding the board with 90-120 ultra cheap dudes was useful even in 8th.

You inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Grots USED to be good for their ability to die in droves to protect actually valuable units. Giving a Loota bomb 30 ablative grot wounds for the cost of 90pts was...a no brainer. You didn't need the grots to do anything except exist and die on a 2+ for grot shields. The problem is GW yet again nerfed EVERYTHING without thinking of the consequences. The nerf to Mob up, the nerf to lootas and other shooty units, the nerf to grots. In the end all of it stacked together means grots have no use in the game. If loota bomb was still a worthwhile tactic than MAYBE 5ppm grots would be fine, but since it isn't a thing anymore grots and lootas are kind of trash now.

So the Nail on the head, GW was petrified based on the new wording for 9th that orkz would take 300 grots for 900pts and than field their remaining slots as shooty things. This would make most armies basically unable to play against orkz and have a chance of winning (300 bodies plus 1,100pts of other things is just too much to handle in most 5 turn games). So what did GW do? They nerfed grots and other cheap units giving them a hefty 66% price increase, now those 300 grots don't cost 900, they cost 1,500 and if you take that many you have very few points left over for basically anything else.

I think the easy answer would be to just make grots WORTH 5ppm if they are really that worried about people spamming horde units. And no, dropping grots to 4ppm would not make them worth taking either, again a cultist is 5ppm and absolutely destroys a grot in every single category.

I would have loved to see a 300 grot list. People can barely deal with 120 boyz now sometimes.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I would have loved to see a 300 grot list. People can barely deal with 120 boyz now sometimes.

The difference is that boyz (with the right buffs) can actually murder stuff that's in their way. 300 gretchin though? If your opponent goes first and is fast enough to pin you in your deployment zone or you have a mission where you can't reach at least half the objective during the first turn, that's game over turn 1. Otherwise you will just lose due to the inability to score secondaries while handing your opponent a VP for every 10 gretchin they kill.

I'm also fairly sure that drukhari will shred through three or four units of gretchin per turn.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I would have loved to see a 300 grot list. People can barely deal with 120 boyz now sometimes.

The difference is that boyz (with the right buffs) can actually murder stuff that's in their way. 300 gretchin though? If your opponent goes first and is fast enough to pin you in your deployment zone or you have a mission where you can't reach at least half the objective during the first turn, that's game over turn 1. Otherwise you will just lose due to the inability to score secondaries while handing your opponent a VP for every 10 gretchin they kill.

I'm also fairly sure that drukhari will shred through three or four units of gretchin per turn.

for me it's less of a thing of them being effective, i just think seeing five million grots shoved out onto the board is a glorious sight.

That's a lot of money and time invested in doing nothing.

Gretchin have never really got over the removal of the rule stating you had to shoot at the closest unit. They were extremely obnoxious screening meat shields.

And now we are getting Ork boyz with T5, Grots with T3, and Beast Snagga boyz with S5, T5, and a 6+ invuln.

It's a good start. Hope the grotz get the 6+ inv save too like you guys talked about. Seemed reasonable and points-appropriate.

Grots' T is still 2 unless I missed something.

 Blackie wrote:
Grots' T is still 2 unless I missed something.

From the Community article yesterday: "That’s right, Toughness 5. In fact, many varieties of Ork throughout the codex are seeing an extra point of Toughness added to their profile (yes, even Gretchin)." – I know WC isn't 100% reliable but going on what we have available to us rn, this basically says T3 Grots.

Yeah, I missed that, it should be pretty reliable. T3 sounds appropriate for a semi-useless 5ppm model armed with S3 no-ap pistol. T2 was right when gretchins were 3ppm.

 dadx6 wrote:
And now we are getting Ork boyz with T5, Grots with T3, and Beast Snagga boyz with S5, T5, and a 6+ invuln.

It's a good start. Hope the grotz get the 6+ inv save too like you guys talked about. Seemed reasonable and points-appropriate.

^the 6+inv is from the "cheeky zoggers" specialist mob. You can already get that, it just requires you to dedicate a detachment to making only GROT units decent.

Please GW give us index gretchin!!!!

I really want to do an ork army. I did one as a kid around 2nd Ed and feel the urge to go green again. I’m really liking the new stuff coming out and I always thought that Orks should be tougher than space marines (old marines) as it matched the way Orks were described. I can’t be bothered to think about the meta. And I always though that in terms of simple physical abilities that gretchin were the equivalent of a human at least