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Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 15:57:07


Post by: ClockworkZion


From the FLG website:


No word has come out on what has led to him being let go at this time, nor if the Chapter Tactics podcast will continue under a new host, but with his involvement in the US tournament scene I felt it was worth sharing.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:02:27


Post by: Mr. Grey


Who? And what did he do?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:03:19


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Mr. Grey wrote:
Who? And what did he do?

He hosts the Chapter Tactics podcast, used to do event coordination for FLG and ran FLG's second hand model shop.

And we don't know what he did.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:12:45


Post by: yukishiro1


I gotta be blunt, that's a really poor way to handle the situation. Either you say nothing beyond "he doesn't work for us any more, we won't be saying any more about it than that", or you say it all re: what he did and let people draw their own conclusions.

The halfway house of making vague, unspecified but clearly serious allegations against someone but not substantiating or even explaining them in any way is basically just a character assassination. He may well have done something really bad, but from that statement, all you get is "FLG hereby expels Pablo from the tribe! Shun him!" and that's not a professional way to do business.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:21:59


Post by: ClockworkZion


yukishiro1 wrote:
I gotta be blunt, that's a really poor way to handle the situation. Either you say nothing beyond "he doesn't work for us any more, we won't be saying any more about it than that", or you say it all re: what he did and let people draw their own conclusions.

The halfway house of making vague, unspecified but clearly serious allegations against someone but not substantiating or even explaining them in any way is basically just a character assassination. He may well have done something really bad, but from that statement, all you get is "FLG hereby expels Pablo from the tribe! Shun him!" and that's not a professional way to do business.

There's a few reasons to stay quiet, like if there is some kind of legal proceedings tied to the problem, or if they're trying to let him save face out of respect of their past work relationship. But yeah, no idea what caused this and the fact they didn't say anything for two weeks doesn't help either.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:24:24


Post by: NinthMusketeer


He used one thick coat.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:29:15


Post by: yukishiro1


You might say nothing beyond "he no longer works for us" because of legal issues. You wouldn't say that. And you also wouldn't say that to try to let someone save face, that sort of unspecified allegation is the most damaging of all because it can't be refuted or even engaged. That is an unspecific broadside against someone's entire character, even complete with "don't trust him if he approaches you." It's just a poor way to handle the situation, even if he did do something really bad.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:44:13


Post by: VonGerrow


Agree with Yukishiro.

"Behaved in a manner not in keeping with our values" could mean "Told an off colour joke." or it could mean "Raped and murdered someone."

If you want to make accusations, make clear accusations, otherwise just use one of those well tuned PR cliches "We have decided to part ways to pursue other projects." or some such.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 16:45:57


Post by: Lord Damocles


Anybody who ever says 'Normally, we wouldn't be writing about this sort of thing' while writing about that sort of thing is exactly the sort of person/organisation who would totally write about that sort of thing.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:00:51


Post by: Karol


A dubious man that takes the shape of a rhino. He must have done a horrible thing, because generaly if something happens and you end up getting kicked out, the school or employer wants zero info being spread around about it. They only do it, if someone can go up to them with question of the , what have you been doing when this person was doing those illegal and aweful things, followed by law suit for not having employee under control.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:03:01


Post by: StrayIight


yukishiro1 wrote:
You might say nothing beyond "he no longer works for us" because of legal issues. You wouldn't say that. And you also wouldn't say that to try to let someone save face, that sort of unspecified allegation is the most damaging of all because it can't be refuted or even engaged. That is an unspecific broadside against someone's entire character, even complete with "don't trust him if he approaches you." It's just a poor way to handle the situation, even if he did do something really bad.



I couldn't agree more.

You don't make an implication against someone professionally, without some kind of justification. This statement is full of implicit implication against the guys character, yet there is no such justification. Did he simply hurt the companies bottom line, or did he do something outright illegal?

They've literally stated that customers need to be protected from him and what he did. Alright, thanks for that - so as your customers, exactly what is it you are protecting us from?

It feels like slander intended to damage a reputation, if just left like this.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:05:06


Post by: ERJAK


yukishiro1 wrote:
You might say nothing beyond "he no longer works for us" because of legal issues. You wouldn't say that. And you also wouldn't say that to try to let someone save face, that sort of unspecified allegation is the most damaging of all because it can't be refuted or even engaged. That is an unspecific broadside against someone's entire character, even complete with "don't trust him if he approaches you." It's just a poor way to handle the situation, even if he did do something really bad.



So do you just let him quietly use his association with you (even if it's clear that he's no longer affiliated with you, he certainly has connections, resources, and social capital built up from when he was that wouldn't go away with a simple 'he is not affiliated with us anymore') to possibly do more untoward things in the future?

Not saying this is the correct way to deal with it but I can see why they would want to do something more severe than 'he no longer works for us'.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:09:12


Post by: Sunny Side Up


But that again raises the question of why?

FLG don't want him to go around being a "regular" ex-employee that just doesn't work there anymore (but may continue to use his contacts and reputation in the hobby to maybe do his own thing) and evidently want it to be "known" that there was something bad/unsavoury/character-related, not just a regular employer-employee-split, but also don't say what the "bad act" in question is/was? Did he use a naughty word at Reece? Did he defraud the company and embezzle money? Did he start a Tau army? Now it's all up to speculation, which IMO isn't ideal.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:16:57


Post by: Karol


Why don't they just go face to face to him and tell that if he keeps using their stuff and contacts, they will take the stuff to court or snitch on him to the police?

That is at least how it works here. Either you leave and your papers stay clean, but you are never allowed name your employer. Or you yapp around, but then you get a visit from the police and the tax police, and if the employer really doesn't like you, they send our version of the FDA after your mother, and make her life a living hell.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:32:00


Post by: yukishiro1


ERJAK wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
You might say nothing beyond "he no longer works for us" because of legal issues. You wouldn't say that. And you also wouldn't say that to try to let someone save face, that sort of unspecified allegation is the most damaging of all because it can't be refuted or even engaged. That is an unspecific broadside against someone's entire character, even complete with "don't trust him if he approaches you." It's just a poor way to handle the situation, even if he did do something really bad.



So do you just let him quietly use his association with you (even if it's clear that he's no longer affiliated with you, he certainly has connections, resources, and social capital built up from when he was that wouldn't go away with a simple 'he is not affiliated with us anymore') to possibly do more untoward things in the future?

Not saying this is the correct way to deal with it but I can see why they would want to do something more severe than 'he no longer works for us'.


That would be a reason to make a specific statement re: what he did. There are valid reasons both to do the safe "he no longer works for us any more and doesn't represent us in any way" and the "this is what he did and why we fired him." The only thing there is never a good reason to do is what they did, make vague defamatory accusations against someone's character without providing the details necessary for anyone to evaluate the situation. Like an angry facebook post from a jilted lover, it just comes across as an effort to make everyone take sides in what could be nothing more than a personal dispute.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:37:44


Post by: addnid


Sunny Side Up wrote:
But that again raises the question of why?

FLG don't want him to go around being a "regular" ex-employee that just doesn't work there anymore (but may continue to use his contacts and reputation in the hobby to maybe do his own thing) and evidently want it to be "known" that there was something bad/unsavoury/character-related, not just a regular employer-employee-split, but also don't say what the "bad act" in question is/was? Did he use a naughty word at Reece? Did he defraud the company and embezzle money? Did he start a Tau army? Now it's all up to speculation, which IMO isn't ideal.



It sounds deadly serious, I am afraid we can’t rule out the worst offense possible… Yes… He may very well have started a TAU ARMY !!!! That leads a man straight to Death row


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 17:39:59


Post by: StrayIight


He better have done something obviously (and provably) extremely serious, else I cannot imagine this isn't a law suit waiting to happen.

I don't know how things work in the US, but here you can't legally so much as give an employee a 'bad' reference without opening yourself up to serious problems (if they were awful, you tend to simply confirm the dates they worked for you and pretty much nothing more). This statement surely is going to affect anything he tries to do in this industry going forward, and possibly any other.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 18:07:34


Post by: ClockworkZion


 addnid wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
But that again raises the question of why?

FLG don't want him to go around being a "regular" ex-employee that just doesn't work there anymore (but may continue to use his contacts and reputation in the hobby to maybe do his own thing) and evidently want it to be "known" that there was something bad/unsavoury/character-related, not just a regular employer-employee-split, but also don't say what the "bad act" in question is/was? Did he use a naughty word at Reece? Did he defraud the company and embezzle money? Did he start a Tau army? Now it's all up to speculation, which IMO isn't ideal.



It sounds deadly serious, I am afraid we can’t rule out the worst offense possible… Yes… He may very well have started a TAU ARMY !!!! That leads a man straight to Death row

Or he shaved Reese's mustache while Reese was sleeping?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 18:10:46


Post by: Racerguy180


Lord Damocles wrote:Anybody who ever says 'Normally, we wouldn't be writing about this sort of thing' while writing about that sort of thing is exactly the sort of person/organisation who would totally write about that sort of thing.



Kinda sums up how I've felt about FLG for a long time.

Just come out and say what they did, no beating around the bush.

If they breached your trust, say why.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 18:29:58


Post by: Ancestral Hamster


 StrayIight wrote:
I don't know how things work in the US, but here you can't legally so much as give an employee a 'bad' reference without opening yourself up to serious problems (if they were awful, you tend to simply confirm the dates they worked for you and pretty much nothing more). This statement surely is going to affect anything he tries to do in this industry going forward, and possibly any other.
It is the same in the US. If you (the person taking the call from a prospective employer regarding an awful former employee) are pressed for further information, your reply is, "I'm sorry, but you will have to contact our HR department." If the caller has sufficient experience, they'll understand the "code", thank you for your time and end the call. Have only had to do that once. The other time, the inquiry was about a good former employee so I was happy to give them a good evaluation.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 18:57:45


Post by: Voss


Karol wrote:
Why don't they just go face to face to him and tell that if he keeps using their stuff and contacts, they will take the stuff to court or snitch on him to the police?

That is at least how it works here. Either you leave and your papers stay clean, but you are never allowed name your employer. Or you yapp around, but then you get a visit from the police and the tax police, and if the employer really doesn't like you, they send our version of the FDA after your mother, and make her life a living hell.


The... Food and Drug Administration?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 19:29:06


Post by: Dysartes


Reads a bit like the sort of messages you see regarding people who have left Scientology - shun the heretic, that sort of thing.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 20:10:09


Post by: Racerguy180


While trying to sound professional, they've ended up sounding the least like it.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 20:12:52


Post by: Quasistellar


Meh whatever. Extremely weird statement, bit at least chapter tactics podcast will likely improve.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 20:15:29


Post by: ClockworkZion


One possibility about the lack of details could be for legal reasons. They may not have been permitted to share details but still needed to address this and distance the brand from Pablo.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 20:24:00


Post by: Karol


Voss wrote:
Karol wrote:
Why don't they just go face to face to him and tell that if he keeps using their stuff and contacts, they will take the stuff to court or snitch on him to the police?

That is at least how it works here. Either you leave and your papers stay clean, but you are never allowed name your employer. Or you yapp around, but then you get a visit from the police and the tax police, and if the employer really doesn't like you, they send our version of the FDA after your mother, and make her life a living hell.


The... Food and Drug Administration?


yep. poted plants outside the house or balcony. danger to other people. potatoes in the celler, unregulated storing of food. And God help your mom, if she made some plump juice or jam add too much suger to it, and it turned in to some for of alcohol. Because that falls under production of alcohol without a license, and if they can prove it was shared with other people or that it was made within 400m of a school or church, it can not just be a ticket, but actual prison time. Well more like 2years on probation, but go explain that to your mother. Plus the court costs are going to be huge.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 20:45:21


Post by: yukishiro1


 ClockworkZion wrote:
One possibility about the lack of details could be for legal reasons. They may not have been permitted to share details but still needed to address this and distance the brand from Pablo.


What they did is more legally problematic than just stating what actually happened. No lawyer would advise that sort of vague yet defamatory statement, it's exactly what you don't want to do.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 20:47:43


Post by: ClockworkZion


yukishiro1 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
One possibility about the lack of details could be for legal reasons. They may not have been permitted to share details but still needed to address this and distance the brand from Pablo.


What they did is more legally problematic than just stating what actually happened. No lawyer would advise that sort of vague yet defamatory statement, it's exactly what you don't want to do.

While true it's not like people don't put their foot in their mouths even when lawyers give advice. They clearly wanted to protect the brand from association with Pablo for one reason or another and did so in a poor manner.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 20:55:49


Post by: Mr. Grey


 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
One possibility about the lack of details could be for legal reasons. They may not have been permitted to share details but still needed to address this and distance the brand from Pablo.


What they did is more legally problematic than just stating what actually happened. No lawyer would advise that sort of vague yet defamatory statement, it's exactly what you don't want to do.

While true it's not like people don't put their foot in their mouths even when lawyers give advice. They clearly wanted to protect the brand from association with Pablo for one reason or another and did so in a poor manner.


"He did some stuff that affected our company in a negative way, but instead of giving details we're going to warn you to stay away from him and don't trust anything he says or does for you in the vaguest possible manner without any details whatsoever. He was fired to limit damage to FLG and protect our customers but we're not actually going to tell you what he did so that you have an idea of why to stay away from him. Good luck guys, FLG out!"



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 21:29:54


Post by: Grimskul


It's definitely not a professional way to let go of a former employee, it makes you look a lot worse than the person being fired, especially if you have no context for why that person is getting the boot.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 21:32:25


Post by: Ordana


 ClockworkZion wrote:
One possibility about the lack of details could be for legal reasons. They may not have been permitted to share details but still needed to address this and distance the brand from Pablo.
Not going into details is normal and the correct course of action.
The problem is that they needlessly insinuate and make vague concerns about trustworthiness.

The entire second paragraph after the first sentence doesn't need to be there.

The 4th paragraph doesnt need to warn and at your own risk. There is no reason to go beyond "we are not affiliated with any goods or services offered".

Nor does the 5th paragraph need to be there.

If your not going to give details then be short and concise, not litter your statement with vague implications of massive breaches of trust.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 22:14:50


Post by: ClockworkZion


Youknow I'm not defending them or saying what they did was correct right? I was just trying to explain a possible reason why they did what they did, even if they did it poorly.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 22:32:41


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 StrayIight wrote:
He better have done something obviously (and provably) extremely serious, else I cannot imagine this isn't a law suit waiting to happen.

I don't know how things work in the US, but here you can't legally so much as give an employee a 'bad' reference without opening yourself up to serious problems (if they were awful, you tend to simply confirm the dates they worked for you and pretty much nothing more). This statement surely is going to affect anything he tries to do in this industry going forward, and possibly any other.
Here in the US one can literally make up lies about someone and broadcast them on whatever media desired without penalty, unless they are able to prove in court that the intent was to harm. Which, as you'd expect, is almost impossible to prove.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 22:40:51


Post by: yukishiro1


That's not how the law works. Actual malice is only required when it's a public figure being defamed. Pablo, despite what some 40k players might think, is not a public figure.

People don't sue for defamation very often because it typically isn't worth the effort unless you are a public figure, and, if you are, it's hard to win.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 22:43:49


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


I don't know where you got your law degree from but you're incorrectly stating a general law. Intent to harm only applies to public figures. For Joe Public all it takes is proof of knowingly or recklessly making a false statement that is detrimental to the subject of said statement(s).


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 22:45:10


Post by: yukishiro1


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't know where you got your law degree from but you're incorrectly stating a general law. Intent to harm only applies to public figures. For Joe Public all it takes is proof of knowingly or recklessly making a false statement that is detrimental to the subject of said statement(s).


It's actually only a negligence standard (assuming we're talking about US law), so even lower than that.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/15 22:57:01


Post by: Amishprn86


WTF did he do to talk bad about him without saying what it was? I''ve listen to him for years and even recently with so many guests on the show nothing seem bad at all, so it must have been in the work place. If it is work place related you don't talk bad about the person, you fire and say " we wasn't working at the quality we ask for" and leave it at that. This makes it sound like we was harassing workers or something worst if it didn't effect the "clients".

This is a unprofessional way to announce it.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 01:30:37


Post by: techsoldaten


FLG could have dealt with the "transgression" without this letter. Reads like a smear, spare us the drama of your HR decisions.

The most charismatic, fun-loving people seem to be the ones getting the boot. Looking forward to whatever Pablo does next.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 01:45:49


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 01:56:36


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
You might say nothing beyond "he no longer works for us" because of legal issues. You wouldn't say that. And you also wouldn't say that to try to let someone save face, that sort of unspecified allegation is the most damaging of all because it can't be refuted or even engaged. That is an unspecific broadside against someone's entire character, even complete with "don't trust him if he approaches you." It's just a poor way to handle the situation, even if he did do something really bad.




Yea, I agree. Though this is the kind of communication I would come to expect from a business that has no formal HR or deep management experience. Just feels like a bunch of buddies stumbling through things.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:02:03


Post by: ClockworkZion


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling

I've never heard about that. Sounds like something like I'd expect from Spikey Bits honestly.

Also you're ignoring they're the creators and main arbitrators of the ITC which in the US at least is the main organization behind competitive Warhammer.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:03:52


Post by: Daedalus81


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling


Never heard of this before. Here's a source of the issue with no comment. *grabs popcorn*

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3887733


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:22:02


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Daedalus81 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.


Edit: Spelling


Never heard of this before. Here's a source of the issue with no comment. *grabs popcorn*

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3887733

My best guess is Reese is one of those people who doesn't want to recognize how horribly awful parts of the community can be. That or his idea of "damage control" is to deny there ever was a problem in the first place.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:26:54


Post by: yukishiro1


Unless someone uncovered something nobody previously knew about, that was a big nothing. Just an unfortunate resemblance between the skull symbol they chose and a relatively obscure Nazi symbol. If wasn't even the same symbol, just somewhat similar. It's pretty unfair to use that as a stick to beat FLG with IMO.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:33:32


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:33:52


Post by: ClockworkZion


yukishiro1 wrote:
Unless someone uncovered something nobody previously knew about, that was a big nothing. Just an unfortunate resemblance between the skull symbol they chose and a relatively obscure Nazi symbol. If wasn't even the same symbol, just somewhat similar. It's pretty unfair to use that as a stick to beat FLG with IMO.

Reese could have handled it better with "thanks for bringing it to my attention and we'll avoid using this image in the future".

So yeah, Reese not handling PR problems properly is par for the course I guess.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:34:43


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


Dear, God. Why....just.....why!

Never seen such intolerance. Bordering on :::gasp::: Facism.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:39:30


Post by: yukishiro1


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's clearly a Totenkopf


Well, I mean, it isn't. If the person who painted it was going for that, they got some of the details wrong.

I mean maybe you're right and they're closet Nazis, anything is possible I guess. But the much more likely explanation would seem to be that they just had no clue and the guy who painted it thought it was cool to paint a skull and crossbones from a different angle than head-on, and had no idea he was painting something similar to a Nazi symbol. It's not the sort of thing normal people in the US would know about like a klan hood or something along those lines.

I agree Reece flubbed the PR response to that, all he had to say was "wow, that totally wasn't our intent at all and we had no idea it is close to a Nazi symbol, we'll take down the picture and get it fixed."



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:47:23


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's clearly a Totenkopf


Well, I mean, it isn't. If the person who painted it was going for that, they got some of the details wrong.

I mean maybe you're right and they're closet Nazis, anything is possible I guess. But the much more likely explanation would seem to be that they just had no clue and the guy who painted it thought it was cool to paint a skull and crossbones from a different angle than head-on, and had no idea he was painting something similar to a Nazi symbol. It's not the sort of thing normal people in the US would know about like a klan hood or something along those lines.

I agree Reece flubbed the PR response to that, all he had to say was "wow, that totally wasn't our intent at all and we had no idea it is close to a Nazi symbol, we'll take down the picture and get it fixed."



Yea. People are at each other's throats too much. If you go look at the AoS N&R thread it is a pissing match. No one is stopping to listen or framing their arguments in a way that might cross the divide. ( I've certainly been no angel )

That guy lambasting Reece and other "Nazis" is perhaps cringe worthy material. Spending time attacking people for really minor infractions seems silly.

You can look at this recent world events. Hurt someone. They lash out. Which causes the other party to lash out. And then we just go in circles...forever. Madness.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 02:47:59


Post by: bullyboy


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.


Dude, give it a fething rest. So tired of such idiotic statements. Yes, it's the symbol of the 3rd SS Panzer division from WWII, but putting it on a model in no way makes someone a nazi sympathizer by that act alone. The skull and cross bones was used by the 17th/21st Lancers, a British division, it's pretty rampant in military circles. The 3rd SS fought combat actions in the Soviet Union, it's not all about concentration camps, etc. Heck, you can find these very symbols on dice and books produced by Battlefront Miniatures to represent the division in wargaming and I can tell you from personal experience that those guys are very far from "nazis".

Go find your boogeymen somewhere else. This thread was about Pablo, not "scary" fascists.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 05:32:55


Post by: KingGarland


When it comes to issues like that Knight it is important to remember Hanlon's razor: never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Most likely what happened was that the guy who painted the skull went online looking for images of skulls and crossbones, saw the symbol not realizing what it was and painted it because he though it looked cool.
Likely Reece's response can be attributed to this.

As for what is happening with Pablo, hard to tell if it is malice, stupidity or stupid malice.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 05:58:31


Post by: ClockworkZion


 KingGarland wrote:
When it comes to issues like that Knight it is important to remember Hanlon's razor: never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Most likely what happened was that the guy who painted the skull went online looking for images of skulls and crossbones, saw the symbol not realizing what it was and painted it because he though it looked cool.
Likely Reece's response can be attributed to this.

As for what is happening with Pablo, hard to tell if it is malice, stupidity or stupid malice.

If we assume Reese is bad at PR based on his response to that skull then we can equally assume he's bad at PR when it comes to something more directly related to him like Pablo. So probably stupidity.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 06:04:28


Post by: kodos


it is strange at best and kind of let the company looks worse than the guy they fired
but unless we hear any more details it can be because of legal reasons as there might be some unresolved issues with his contract

 bullyboy wrote:

Dude, give it a fething rest. So tired of such idiotic statements. Yes, it's the symbol of the 3rd SS Panzer division from WWII, but putting it on a model in no way makes someone a nazi sympathizer by that act alone.

in some European countries, the way how Reece handled it would get him into prison, as maybe using a random pic from the net not knowing what it is could happen, but playing it down and not removing it from your site after it was pointed out to you will be the problem


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 06:21:28


Post by: Table


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.



How the hell did this thread devolve into this................

The guy was fired. FLG made a public statement about it where none was needed. Lets stay on track here. Leave the "nazi" accusations where they belong. On twitter.

On a side note, I dont keep up with the drama but wasnt that GW statement the first and last of its kind? Or has there been a sustained effort on their part?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 06:25:09


Post by: Karol


yukishiro1 wrote:
Unless someone uncovered something nobody previously knew about, that was a big nothing. Just an unfortunate resemblance between the skull symbol they chose and a relatively obscure Nazi symbol. If wasn't even the same symbol, just somewhat similar. It's pretty unfair to use that as a stick to beat FLG with IMO.


Well I almost wrote obscure to who, but then I remember it is another continent away from me. Still it does look exactly, not just like, the bronze Waffen SS badge. If it is just a coincident, then we have first example of psychic emanations.

I think it would be better, if he just said I googled, skull and bones found, found a logo I liked put it on my model, but because I ain't no nazi or a person who lives in central europe, I was unable to recognise it as a Waffen SS sigel.

I think people would be more understanding of that. The shirt guy was kind of a the same . His wife family gave him shirt, he isn't in to far east politics. Shirts looks funny and feels nice. Later find out the dude is not a nice guy. Happens all the time, for example in Poland we have on young men run around with black painted faces singing carols, but it is a folk local thing and the painted person is the representation of the slavic demon/devil Boruta, there were a few times when some polish dudes thought it would be okey to done the Boruta gear and waltz in to halloween parties in western countries. A cousin of my did it in the 2010s and got in to real trouble at the university he went to in Alberta.

Or TLTR people don't want to show how stupid they are about some things, and deep themselfs deeper in to @#$% then they would if they just said , I don't know a thing about this things.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 06:28:57


Post by: vict0988


I am broadly in agreement that it is both too little or too much of a statement, either Pablo will come out and reveal it was too much of a statement or we can assume that it was too little of a statement and something very serious happened.

If Chapter Tactics continues it'll be with a new GW shill to replace Pablo, the podcast won't get better. Jim Vesal's podcast is extremely cool, I think you should check it out if you want a saltier version of Chapter Tactics. The Art of War podcast also doesn't get bogged down in GW apolegetics in my experience, with those two you get coverage of the nitty gritty and the broad stuff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.

Nazis stole iconography from everyone, despite having a failed artist for a leader they really didn't come up with any original stuff. The swastika is an ancient symbol and the totenkopf was in use for at least a hundred years before the SS started exterminating millions of Jews. I think some people are still butthurt over the ITC Champions missions from 8th.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with painting fascist empire iconography on your space fascist imperium dollies. What does the Sautekh Dynasty symbol represent? Conquest, slavery and extermination. Knights are not the good guys, they're feudal lords and they can treat the peasantry however they like as long as they support the greater Imperium, knowing a little medieval history and something about the 40k lore, that's probably pretty awful.

 kodos wrote:

in some European countries, the way how Reece handled it would get him into prison, as maybe using a random pic from the net not knowing what it is could happen, but playing it down and not removing it from your site after it was pointed out to you will be the problem

Germany's censorship isn't working from what I've seen in news shows and articles the far right were out in force to protest during corona, as a pirate I strongly object to anyone that would ban me from using the skull and crossbones and if you have freedom of speech the suggestion from anyone to restrict your speech that you think is reasonable should be "piss off".

The Danish flag has probably been flown celebrating tragedies, doesn't stop me from flying my flag on my birthday. Yes, the intention really does matter, which is why only an idiot would call Buddhists erecting new swastika-riddled buildings Nazis or an Asian (especially if they are of Chinese descent, which they might be) a Nazi for using a skull and crossbones insignia similar to one that ONE division of the SS used.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 06:46:08


Post by: Table


 vict0988 wrote:
I am broadly in agreement that it is both too little or too much of a statement, either Pablo will come out and reveal it was too much of a statement or we can assume that it was too little of a statement and something very serious happened.

If Chapter Tactics continues it'll be with a new GW shill to replace Pablo, the podcast won't get better. Jim Vesal's podcast is extremely cool, I think you should check it out if you want a saltier version of Chapter Tactics. The Art of War podcast also doesn't get bogged down in GW apolegetics in my experience, with those two you get coverage of the nitty gritty and the broad stuff.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this the same company that decided it was ok to prominently display a Knight model with the Totenkopf (Nazi symbol) and then basically blame anyone who had a problem with it for being a snowflake?

This FLG? Yeah, color me meh, these guys have a crappy business where they peddle in crappy mats, crappier paper terrain, and 3rd party bits. Nothing about them makes them eligible for the amount of good will and positive press they get for being in the hobby.

Nazis stole iconography from everyone, despite having a failed artist for a leader they really didn't come up with any original stuff. The swastika is an ancient symbol and the totenkopf was in use for at least a hundred years before the SS started exterminating millions of Jews. I think some people are still butthurt over the ITC Champions missions from 8th.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with painting fascist empire iconography on your space fascist imperium dollies. What does the Sautekh Dynasty symbol represent? Conquest, slavery and extermination. Knights are not the good guys, they're feudal lords and they can treat the peasantry however they like as long as they support the greater Imperium, knowing a little medieval history and something about the 40k lore, that's probably pretty awful.

 kodos wrote:

in some European countries, the way how Reece handled it would get him into prison, as maybe using a random pic from the net not knowing what it is could happen, but playing it down and not removing it from your site after it was pointed out to you will be the problem

Germany's censorship isn't working from what I've seen in news shows and articles the far right were out in force to protest during corona, as a pirate I strongly object to anyone that would ban me from using the skull and crossbones and if you have freedom of speech the suggestion from anyone to restrict your speech that you think is reasonable should be "piss off".

The Danish flag has probably been flown celebrating tragedies, doesn't stop me from flying my flag on my birthday. Yes, the intention really does matter, which is why only an idiot would call Buddhists erecting new swastika-riddled buildings Nazis or an Asian (especially if they are of Chinese descent, which they might be) a Nazi for using a skull and crossbones insignia similar to one that ONE division of the SS used.


While I agree with almost everything you have typed, I must bring up that painting a SS thunderbolt symbol on your toys can cause actual discomfort where as Sautek dynasty is patently fake. Im not one for censorship and I wouldnt tell anyone how to paint their toys. But in the end, a real life symbol of a hate group (why i used the SS thunderbolts, because as far as I know it was a original nazi icon) is going to elicit a much stronger reaction than a fake icon. As I said. I wont tell anyone what to do, just expect a stronger response.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 07:10:16


Post by: ccs


yukishiro1 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's clearly a Totenkopf


Well, I mean, it isn't. If the person who painted it was going for that, they got some of the details wrong.

I mean maybe you're right and they're closet Nazis, anything is possible I guess. But the much more likely explanation would seem to be that they just had no clue and the guy who painted it thought it was cool to paint a skull and crossbones from a different angle than head-on, and had no idea he was painting something similar to a Nazi symbol. It's not the sort of thing normal people in the US would know about like a klan hood or something along those lines.


Normal people who know little to nothing about WWII history anyways.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 07:21:56


Post by: ClockworkZion


Table wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.



How the hell did this thread devolve into this................

The guy was fired. FLG made a public statement about it where none was needed. Lets stay on track here. Leave the "nazi" accusations where they belong. On twitter.

On a side note, I dont keep up with the drama but wasnt that GW statement the first and last of its kind? Or has there been a sustained effort on their part?

GW has hired more female writers, has been making more female models (not even counting Sisters), finally added female Guard heads and did sue Arch Warhammer and get him black listed from World of Warships. Oh, and we finally got a non-Salamander Black Space Marine on a book cover (who was even the protagonist) and they've been making an effort to paint skin tones other than caucasian too. So while they haven't been painting rainbow Marines or anything they have been doing things to try and make the hobby space more welcoming to a wider range of people.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 07:22:02


Post by: Horla


Necron symbols are fictional icons based on Egyptian symbols like an ankh mixed with circuit diagram imagery. They represent a fictional robot undead race from 60,000,000 years in the past awakened 40,000 years in the future. Explain again how this is the same as symbols used within living memory in the name of exterminating millions of people and a war which bombed half the world into ruins?

Also, to call a totenkopf obscure reflects your own ignorance, not that of others. You might not known its name but as a symbol of the SS and the Holocaust, and a symbol used today by fascist groups, it is pretty notorious. I don’t think it can be blamed as a US thing as I believe they also have TV and books over there. I mean, I grew up in a country that didn’ even partake in the Second World War and didn’t officially call it a war until after it was all done, I’m not a military history guy nor am I a fascist and yet I know what it is.

Anyway, I don’t know this Pablo guy but that statement does read like a hamfisted “something dodgy this way comes” ass covering statement so whatever is going on in the background must be fairly bad.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 07:23:07


Post by: StrayIight


There's little to no way I could be convinced that the 'artist' wasn't attempting to paint an SS Totenkopf. I could be convinced that they were naïve enough to have found the symbol and 'copied' it without knowing what it was.

Comparison of the Knights ion shield and a Totenkopf (under spoiler - I'm loathe to post the damn thing at all, but it seems to need illustrating):

Spoiler:


Innocent mistake though it may have been, Reese should have backed down and apologised profusely. Instead he doubled down.

(..and then should have apologised again for charging a customer money for some of the worst freehand painting I've ever seen by a commercial painting service.)


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 07:31:32


Post by: kodos


 vict0988 wrote:

Germany's censorship isn't working from what I've seen in news shows and articles the far right were out in force to protest during corona, as a pirate I strongly object to anyone that would ban me from using the skull and crossbones and if you have freedom of speech the suggestion from anyone to restrict your speech that you think is reasonable should be "piss off".

it is not about a random skull with crossed bones, but the specific one
dress as a Pirate and there is no problem, but using that specific skull in public is not

the skull used is very unique and knowing is only an excuse as long no one points it out

you can also go around with an ISIS flag and telling people that this is just a random flag from the internet and that it is not your fault that terrorist like the colour black
but be not surprised if this gets you into trouble, specially if you start defending its use

I guess you won't see this reaction if they guy used the Confederate Flag with the excuse that it is just a random flag with stars from the internet and no one should be offended by some stars painted on a toy


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 07:53:18


Post by: Lord Zarkov


That specific symbol is well known enough in the UK that a BBC comedy did a sketch specifically mocking it.

https://youtu.be/rWvpvlT9pJU" target="_new" rel="nofollow">Mitchell & Webb’s ‘Are we the baddies?’

maybe it’s different in the US, but in Europe you’d have to be pretty sheltered to not get the provenance of it.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 08:06:34


Post by: StrayIight


Indeed. We're not talking about a generic 'skull and crossbones' - there's a reason why no one lose their gak every time a new Pirates of the Caribbean is marketed. This is a specific, and utterly repugnant, symbol that's being referenced.

Nor is this an issue of free speech. You do have the freedom to make any comment you like, but if you're engaging in apologetics over Nazi symbology, you'll also be just as free to be regarded as a human stain by any reasonable individual after the fact. 'Free speech' does not and should not become a free pass from the consequences of an opinion you have the poor common sense to state publicly.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 08:10:57


Post by: Karol


ccs 798333 11124904 wrote:

Normal people who know little to nothing about WWII history anyways.


I think we learn more about the klan too. For example two of our lessons in XIXth century history were dovoted to the links between the XIXth century polish struggles against occupations and persecution, and the Black Patch Tabacco Kentucky War, where local farmers under the protection of the 2ed Klan members fought against the Italian mob owned tabacco industry and the mob supported and paid off US state. Where they used burning crosses in the hills as signs that the marauders are coming to burn farmer houses and crops. A real big thing in polish news papers coming out in the 1905-1907 year, jewish too as at the same time in the russian empire there was a revolution going on and peasent uprisings because of plagues and famine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:


The Danish flag has probably been flown celebrating tragedies, doesn't stop me from flying my flag on my birthday. Yes, the intention really does matter, which is why only an idiot would call Buddhists erecting new swastika-riddled buildings Nazis or an Asian (especially if they are of Chinese descent, which they might be) a Nazi for using a skull and crossbones insignia similar to one that ONE division of the SS used.

Well goralen folk here defend themselfs that way too, even when they cooperated with the nazis durning WWII, and there are sfastikas slaped on churchs, houses etc in places where they live. In Reece case this isn't so simple though, the design is a clear retrace of a Waffen SS badge. A buddist having his solar sign is a buddist having a solar sign. It is different when you slap on a white circle on a red back ground.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 08:21:10


Post by: BrookM


Let's get back on topic please and discuss iconography elsewhere, thanks.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 08:49:10


Post by: Marin


Yea, that was very unprofessional to trow dirt on a person without disclosing the reason. Since Pablo was in the podcast for so long, he could be considered public figure, so such statement sure can harm his life opportunities.
I know some people that have clearly right wing views in the hobby, i have to agree with Reece.
That symbol was used long before the SS was created, it was used by the Prussians. They even fought against the French in Waterloo.
So demonizing everything just because it was used by the nazis is wrong without the context and in fact the skull is used to warn about poisons and danger.
I`m sure if you check you could find easily a lot of armies using similar symbol and it`s no wonder the painters use it to make the models looks cooler.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 09:00:01


Post by: Dysartes


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also you're ignoring they're the creators and main arbitrators of the ITC which in the US at least is the main organization behind competitive Warhammer.


...is that meant to be a point in their favour?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 09:58:30


Post by: harlokin


 BrookM wrote:
Let's get back on topic please and discuss iconography elsewhere, thanks.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 10:48:07


Post by: techsoldaten


As far as anyone knows, Pablo was not fired over iconography. Importing a separate drama he had nothing to do with doesn't help.

This situation is disturbing.

It wasn't enough for FLG to fire Pablo, they nuked his reputation with a letter talking about trust, harm, protecting customers, and dealing with him at your own risk. This language is pretty serious, sounds like Pablo's job with FLG was his only means of support. With this letter, they're trying to make him unemployable.

Exercising that kind of power over someone is cruel. The letter speaks about behavior "not in keeping with our values." What are those values, and why is this guy getting punished for some transgression after he's already left the company? Working for Reese should not mean entering into a lifetime agreement to behave to his satisfaction.

FLG also runs major tournaments and manages the ITC rankings. What does this mean for Pablo's participation in tournaments, or his podcast that's featured on the Frontline Gaming Network? FLG is trying to ruin someone after they already fired him. Not sure this level of vindictiveness is consistent with the standards of fairness I'd expect from tournament organizers.

It's clear Reese sees himself as some defender of the community. I am not clear who defends people from Reese. This letter crosses a lot of lines.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 10:49:03


Post by: Tyel


Depends on what the reason is really but assuming its bad enough to result is dismissal it seems like a reasonable message to me.

It balances the fact that someone has done something sufficiently bad, but you haven't proved in a court of law etc and presumably don't want to - but you want to give some heads up in case they go and do it to other people.

I look for example at the people who committed a fraud against our company for about £100k. We had a lengthy battle over several years and never got any money back. When they eventually fell over completely they didn't just owe us £100k, they owed a huge number number of people about £12m. For all those years we could have been telling these people (every industry is always a small world afte rall) that these people were bad, they shouldn't deal with them, but we felt we couldn't tell people. But with hindsight - we probably should have done, because it would saved some of those people the difference. But we had grave concerns over the cost (both in money and time) of going to court to make it public, prove our position and win the case.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 11:08:14


Post by: StrayIight


Tyel wrote:
Depends on what the reason is really but assuming its bad enough to result is dismissal it seems like a reasonable message to me.

It balances the fact that someone has done something sufficiently bad, but you haven't proved in a court of law etc and presumably don't want to - but you want to give some heads up in case they go and do it to other people.


For all we know, he could have been dismissed for something as a minor as being late back from lunch one time time too many.
That's the issue isn't it? Perhaps it was something truly abhorrent that Pablo did, or maybe it was just something that Reese and Frankie didn't like.

What we do know, is that they've quite literally harmed his chances at any further employment in this industry through their comments. They damaged his ability to earn and provide for his family. And that, without serious justification, is deeply troubling.

All they had to do, is say nothing beyond 'He's no longer with us'.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 11:14:09


Post by: Catulle


They're securing the bag.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 11:18:21


Post by: VonGerrow


Tyel wrote:
Depends on what the reason is really but assuming its bad enough to result is dismissal it seems like a reasonable message to me.

It balances the fact that someone has done something sufficiently bad, but you haven't proved in a court of law etc and presumably don't want to - but you want to give some heads up in case they go and do it to other people.

I look for example at the people who committed a fraud against our company for about £100k. We had a lengthy battle over several years and never got any money back. When they eventually fell over completely they didn't just owe us £100k, they owed a huge number number of people about £12m. For all those years we could have been telling these people (every industry is always a small world afte rall) that these people were bad, they shouldn't deal with them, but we felt we couldn't tell people. But with hindsight - we probably should have done, because it would saved some of those people the difference. But we had grave concerns over the cost (both in money and time) of going to court to make it public, prove our position and win the case.


Thing is, if you're telling the truth, you can come out and make the accusations clearly and specifically, without exaggeration. You only have to prove it in court if the person decides to sue you. If they know that they did what you're accusing them of; they know they can't win that case.

If your company had passed the word around that "Hey, these guys owe us $100k that it seems like they have no intention of repaying" they might have saved a lot of other companies from financial loss; and if the debtors had tried to sue for defamation; the court case would have gone very quickly; you just show up with your unpaid bill.

If your company had just passed the word around that "These guys don't do business in accordance with our values and have breached our trust." some people who really trust you might take it on faith, but a lot of others would just feel like you're badmouthing people over... who knows what?

Are they being accused of some sort of fraud? Are they being accused of some sort of harassment? Are they being accused of holding unacceptable political opinions?

All of the above but also none.





Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 12:03:16


Post by: Apple fox


That’s rather spicy.
Can’t really tell if he is just a ass.
Or throwing it out there deliberately knowing he won’t want to bring it all out to the light.

It’s not uncommon for company in nerdy spaces to drop people and leave it at that after some crazy things. With the nerd space being as it is, usually it’s best for both party’s to part ways.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 13:28:23


Post by: Slipspace


What makes this even worse, IMO, is they specifically decided not to name the person involved in the recent cheating scandal who was definitively caught on video and who issued his own statement acknowledging his wrongdoing. This was, apparently, to prevent reputational damage both inside and outside 40k and give them a chance to rehabilitate.

But in the case of an ex-employee they're happy to make vague insinuations while naming them and warning people away from dealing with him. Something seems very off about their priorities.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 14:06:42


Post by: waefre_1


VonGerrow wrote:
...You only have to prove it in court if the person decides to sue you...

To be perfectly fair, there's more to "going to court" than actually showing up at a courthouse. If the company is smaller and doesn't have a legal department, they'd probably want to hire outside counsel (which likely won't be cheap), and depending on the sums involved they may go to court and win their slam-dunk case only to find that they've wasted weeks of time getting set up and awaiting the hearing and at the end of the day they've incurred, say, $5k of fees to make somebody pay a $2k bill.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 14:20:49


Post by: Arbitrator


Literally who?

I love watching a bit of e-drama as much as the next person but I've never heard of him. I wonder of this is a pre-emptive 'distancing' because somebody is going to make a statement (with some sort of evidence) in the future regarding what he's alleged to have done, whether that's cheating, messing with the books, sexual harassment, etc and FLG just wanted to shove him out the door before it looked like they were made to push.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 14:33:52


Post by: Voss


Apple fox wrote:
That’s rather spicy.
Can’t really tell if he is just a ass.


Which he? Knowing nothing and no one involved, the one that looks bad to me is the one making the statement.

Its the modern 'Truthiness' scenario. When on the defensive, with a weak position, make an attack. Evidence and right/wrong are just inconvenient and irrelevant 'facts.'
In this particular situation, they apparently aren't even worth mentioning.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 14:36:27


Post by: Karol


 waefre_1 wrote:
VonGerrow wrote:
...You only have to prove it in court if the person decides to sue you...

To be perfectly fair, there's more to "going to court" than actually showing up at a courthouse. If the company is smaller and doesn't have a legal department, they'd probably want to hire outside counsel (which likely won't be cheap), and depending on the sums involved they may go to court and win their slam-dunk case only to find that they've wasted weeks of time getting set up and awaiting the hearing and at the end of the day they've incurred, say, $5k of fees to make somebody pay a $2k bill.


Well my country has histories of families going to court against each other for over 100 years, and bankrupting each other with court fees, for something which in todays courts would be considered a public insult. We even have a word for people that go on countless never ending court wars with others, which roughly translates in to english as foam person ,as in beer foam.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 14:51:38


Post by: Table


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Table wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.



How the hell did this thread devolve into this................

The guy was fired. FLG made a public statement about it where none was needed. Lets stay on track here. Leave the "nazi" accusations where they belong. On twitter.

On a side note, I dont keep up with the drama but wasnt that GW statement the first and last of its kind? Or has there been a sustained effort on their part?

GW has hired more female writers, has been making more female models (not even counting Sisters), finally added female Guard heads and did sue Arch Warhammer and get him black listed from World of Warships. Oh, and we finally got a non-Salamander Black Space Marine on a book cover (who was even the protagonist) and they've been making an effort to paint skin tones other than caucasian too. So while they haven't been painting rainbow Marines or anything they have been doing things to try and make the hobby space more welcoming to a wider range of people.



Not what I asked. And I dont care how they paint their models and identity politics. As I said, have they made another statement or did they not. As I have heard, it was not well taken by a huge part of the fanbase and to my knowledge they havent dared stick their neck out again. Which is good. I dont need a game company pontificating about morals. I need them to make cool models which people can paint green,black,white or blue for all I care.

Edit. Need to get back on topic. Lets take it to PM's if you care. Which I doubt you do.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 14:56:36


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Dysartes wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also you're ignoring they're the creators and main arbitrators of the ITC which in the US at least is the main organization behind competitive Warhammer.


...is that meant to be a point in their favour?

Yes and no. I mean I do have to give them credit for getting the US tournament scene largely under one rule set which makes it easier to travel and play the game, since even large regional tournaments could end up on wildly different rulesets, but I won't claim they're perfect or above criticism for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Table wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Table wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
When you have to say something isn't Nazi-ish, it's Nazi-"like", you have drawn a pretty odd line in the sand. It's clearly a Totenkopf, which for those who don't know, it's a sign to others that you were part of Herman Goering's Elite 3rd SS Panzer Division.

But sure, it's just Nazi-like. Just like 40k doesn't have a serious problem with people following and idealizing the same ideas. It's literally why we had to have GW come out and clean house with the whole "You will not be missed" speech.



How the hell did this thread devolve into this................

The guy was fired. FLG made a public statement about it where none was needed. Lets stay on track here. Leave the "nazi" accusations where they belong. On twitter.

On a side note, I dont keep up with the drama but wasnt that GW statement the first and last of its kind? Or has there been a sustained effort on their part?

GW has hired more female writers, has been making more female models (not even counting Sisters), finally added female Guard heads and did sue Arch Warhammer and get him black listed from World of Warships. Oh, and we finally got a non-Salamander Black Space Marine on a book cover (who was even the protagonist) and they've been making an effort to paint skin tones other than caucasian too. So while they haven't been painting rainbow Marines or anything they have been doing things to try and make the hobby space more welcoming to a wider range of people.



Not what I asked. And I dont care how they paint their models and identity politics. As I said, have they made another statement or did they not. As I have heard, it was not well taken by a huge part of the fanbase and to my knowledge they havent dared stick their neck out again. Which is good. I dont need a game company pontificating about morals. I need them to make cool models which people can paint green,black,white or blue for all I care.

Edit. Need to get back on topic. Lets take it to PM's if you care. Which I doubt you do.

You LITERALLY asked if there was "as sustained effort on their part?" which I answered. Christ, do you even read what you posted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Literally who?

I love watching a bit of e-drama as much as the next person but I've never heard of him. I wonder of this is a pre-emptive 'distancing' because somebody is going to make a statement (with some sort of evidence) in the future regarding what he's alleged to have done, whether that's cheating, messing with the books, sexual harassment, etc and FLG just wanted to shove him out the door before it looked like they were made to push.

Guy used to help coordinate major FLG ITC events, ran their 2nd hand shop and hosts the Chapter Tactics podcast. In competitive 40k he's a decently well known figure.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 15:17:38


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Did someone actually post an unironic link to somethingawful in this thread? What is even going on.

These overall these sorts of things are rather unprofessional, since they cast a blacklight over someone in a way that really can't be confirmed in any way and doesn't really help the community know of any actual issues.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 15:27:20


Post by: Mr. Grey


Not what I asked. And I dont care how they paint their models and identity politics. As I said, have they made another statement or did they not. As I have heard, it was not well taken by a huge part of the fanbase and to my knowledge they havent dared stick their neck out again. Which is good. I dont need a game company pontificating about morals


I very much want a game company to pontificate about morals because not making the statement that they did implies through silence that those attitudes are ok with them. Yes, a large part of the fanbase got upset by the "You will not be missed" message. Any guesses as to which part of the fanbase got upset...?

Back on topic it seems like Reece is just kind of bad at PR all around. The statement could have started and ended at "This person has been let go from FLG because their values no longer align with ours." The way the entire thing was worded leaves everybody with questions, as evidenced by this entire thread.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 15:33:40


Post by: tneva82


 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I gotta be blunt, that's a really poor way to handle the situation. Either you say nothing beyond "he doesn't work for us any more, we won't be saying any more about it than that", or you say it all re: what he did and let people draw their own conclusions.

The halfway house of making vague, unspecified but clearly serious allegations against someone but not substantiating or even explaining them in any way is basically just a character assassination. He may well have done something really bad, but from that statement, all you get is "FLG hereby expels Pablo from the tribe! Shun him!" and that's not a professional way to do business.

There's a few reasons to stay quiet, like if there is some kind of legal proceedings tied to the problem, or if they're trying to let him save face out of respect of their past work relationship. But yeah, no idea what caused this and the fact they didn't say anything for two weeks doesn't help either.


Then better way to handle would be simply neutral "he no longer works for us". Not "he's bad person, he did something very bad but we don't tell what or show evidence. Trust us blindly"


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 15:39:34


Post by: alextroy


This is definitely a case where FLG could have gotten the same effect by damning him with faint praise. They have always been very open about praising their outgoing public facing talent. A terse non-praising statement (PM no longer works for or with FLG in any capasity. FLG will no longer be carrying future episode his podcast on our network.) would have said volumes without actively casting a bad light on him.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 15:47:34


Post by: ClockworkZion


Well I tried to see if Pablo was sharing his side of the story but he's mum on it with only this showing up on his Facebook:


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 16:13:52


Post by: Kommisar


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Did someone actually post an unironic link to somethingawful in this thread? What is even going on.


the SA 40k community is unironically way better and healthier than the one here.

The statement was dumb but Pablo was terrible on chapter tactics and I'm happy that he's gone from it. When Geoff Robinson was on it he would actually call out Pablo on all his dumb and meaningless statements, the current guests/cohosts let him get away with too much.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 16:20:52


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Kommisar wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Did someone actually post an unironic link to somethingawful in this thread? What is even going on.


the SA 40k community is unironically way better and healthier than the one here.

The statement was dumb but Pablo was terrible on chapter tactics and I'm happy that he's gone from it. When Geoff Robinson was on it he would actually call out Pablo on all his dumb and meaningless statements, the current guests/cohosts let him get away with too much.

Pablo also had a habit of talking over others and running his tangents into the ground. Some of his guests have tried correcting him (Danny from Mob Rules for example) but yeah, Pablo was prone to being incredibly wrong about the game despite hosting a show about competitive 40k.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 16:44:55


Post by: Racerguy180


Slipspace wrote:What makes this even worse, IMO, is they specifically decided not to name the person involved in the recent cheating scandal who was definitively caught on video and who issued his own statement acknowledging his wrongdoing. This was, apparently, to prevent reputational damage both inside and outside 40k and give them a chance to rehabilitate.

But in the case of an ex-employee they're happy to make vague insinuations while naming them and warning people away from dealing with him. Something seems very off about their priorities.


No no no, you've got it all wrong.

Cheater McCheaterpants's reputation shouldn't be negatively impacted by their cheating. They only did it "once"(cough...yeah...cough...right) so their golden after their "penance".
Pablo must've been sneaking out the back door of Reece's house....

THE ABOVE IS ALL SARCASM!
‐---------------------------------------
the cheater should be banned for life
Pablo(I don't even know who they are) should go after them for libel, unless it's true. If so...peace out

NOT SARCASM


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 16:45:46


Post by: vict0988


Yes, a large part of the fanbase got upset by the "You will not be missed" message. Any guesses as to which part of the fanbase got upset...?

The only problem with it was the doublespeak, "40k is for everyone, it is also not for everyone". "40k is for people regardless of their ethnicity or gender and you will not be missed if you think otherwise" would have been a more clear message without the doublespeak.
 Arbitrator wrote:
Literally who?

I love watching a bit of e-drama as much as the next person but I've never heard of him. I wonder of this is a pre-emptive 'distancing' because somebody is going to make a statement (with some sort of evidence) in the future regarding what he's alleged to have done, whether that's cheating, messing with the books, sexual harassment, etc and FLG just wanted to shove him out the door before it looked like they were made to push.

Host of the biggest 40k competitive podcast I think?
Slipspace wrote:
What makes this even worse, IMO, is they specifically decided not to name the person involved in the recent cheating scandal who was definitively caught on video and who issued his own statement acknowledging his wrongdoing. This was, apparently, to prevent reputational damage both inside and outside 40k and give them a chance to rehabilitate.

But in the case of an ex-employee they're happy to make vague insinuations while naming them and warning people away from dealing with him. Something seems very off about their priorities.

People were sending death threats to the tourney guy, I don't know if that preceded FLG's statement. Nobody knows what Pablo did and people still don't so nobody is sending Pablo death threats.

"You are the scum of the earth, I will murder you for having broken evil man Reecio's trust by playing Tau Empire." /sarcasm


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 18:20:48


Post by: NinthMusketeer


FLG doesn't care about cheating. On the AoS side we have known, chronic cheaters who show up and do it every year without penalty. And even bitch when called on it, as if they are totally the victim.

As to the 'you will not be missed' all GW is doing is clarifying that when they say Warhammer is for everyone they don't mean Warhammer is for LITERALLY everyone. Because so many people are too fething stupid to apply any sort of nuance these days. No doubt they could have phrased it better so it would translate into the minds of dullards.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 18:30:57


Post by: Arbitrator


Clearly they should have said "Warhammer is for everyone, except poorer people."


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 18:44:46


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah, GW's version of inclusion is the country-club variety: the only color they care about is green.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 21:59:16


Post by: Lord Zarkov


yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, GW's version of inclusion is the country-club variety: the only color they care about is green.


Remember they’re a British company - red and purple are much better than green


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 22:14:33


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Am I confusing 40k influencers or is FLG the group that was primarily the cast of Team Happy, that got caught in the Plasma Pistol fiasco, or the Aligator/roughrider fiasco, or the slow play fiasco of 8th? I can't recall who was in Team Happy, but I know they were from the US and part of a major 40k influencer group. Am I confusing them with the SpikeyBits crew?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 22:41:11


Post by: alextroy


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Am I confusing 40k influencers or is FLG the group that was primarily the cast of Team Happy, that got caught in the Plasma Pistol fiasco, or the Aligator/roughrider fiasco, or the slow play fiasco of 8th? I can't recall who was in Team Happy, but I know they were from the US and part of a major 40k influencer group. Am I confusing them with the SpikeyBits crew?
Frontline Gaming is neither SpikeyBits nor Team Happy. They are the primary organizers behind the ITC and a business selling and producing gaming products and running TT miniatures events like the Las Vegas Open.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 22:58:06


Post by: Las


 Kommisar wrote:
 Las wrote:
He knew what he was painting.

At the same time, him painting that symbol on a figure set in an edge lord settings doesn't make him a nazi.

It's much more likely he just did a big stupid.

But it its definitely a fire-able offence.


uh that was like 2 years ago


Haha I thought that was the latest.

I straight up dont know what's going on then. Can someone summarize?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 23:01:55


Post by: Amishprn86


 Las wrote:
 Kommisar wrote:
 Las wrote:
He knew what he was painting.

At the same time, him painting that symbol on a figure set in an edge lord settings doesn't make him a nazi.

It's much more likely he just did a big stupid.

But it its definitely a fire-able offence.


uh that was like 2 years ago


Haha I thought that was the latest.

I straight up dont know what's going on then. Can someone summarize?


Read the first post, all other posts after that are peoples opinions of that post and then someone brought up how bad FLG RP is and cited the Skull painting as proof that Reece is terrible at PR.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 23:04:08


Post by: Las


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Las wrote:
 Kommisar wrote:
 Las wrote:
He knew what he was painting.

At the same time, him painting that symbol on a figure set in an edge lord settings doesn't make him a nazi.

It's much more likely he just did a big stupid.

But it its definitely a fire-able offence.


uh that was like 2 years ago


Haha I thought that was the latest.

I straight up dont know what's going on then. Can someone summarize?



Read the first post, all other posts after that are peoples opinions of that post and then someone brought up how bad LFG RP is and cited the Skull painting as proof that Reece is terrible at PR.


Ah I see. So no one knows why Pablo was fired yet, definitively?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 23:04:14


Post by: yukishiro1


Nobody knows what's going on, that's sort-of the point: FLG put out a statement long on "Pablo is the worst! Don't trust him!" and very short on "this is what he actually did."



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 23:38:52


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


 alextroy wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Am I confusing 40k influencers or is FLG the group that was primarily the cast of Team Happy, that got caught in the Plasma Pistol fiasco, or the Aligator/roughrider fiasco, or the slow play fiasco of 8th? I can't recall who was in Team Happy, but I know they were from the US and part of a major 40k influencer group. Am I confusing them with the SpikeyBits crew?
Frontline Gaming is neither SpikeyBits nor Team Happy. They are the primary organizers behind the ITC and a business selling and producing gaming products and running TT miniatures events like the Las Vegas Open.


Right, the reason I asked is I listen to the Long War podcast a lot, and they have talked a lot recently, about how this is like what Team Happy was accused of doing, and I think Wyatt was talking about how Team Happy was mostly made up of "Another influencer group, we won't mention their name here..." I thought he might be talking about FLG, so I just asked if FLG was mostly made up of Team Happy members, or Vice Versa.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/16 23:55:15


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Las wrote:
Ah I see. So no one knows why Pablo was fired yet, definitively?

At this time, no. I tried checking Pablo's social media in case he gave his side of the story but nothing has come out yet.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 01:12:09


Post by: Kommisar


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Am I confusing 40k influencers or is FLG the group that was primarily the cast of Team Happy, that got caught in the Plasma Pistol fiasco, or the Aligator/roughrider fiasco, or the slow play fiasco of 8th? I can't recall who was in Team Happy, but I know they were from the US and part of a major 40k influencer group. Am I confusing them with the SpikeyBits crew?
Frontline Gaming is neither SpikeyBits nor Team Happy. They are the primary organizers behind the ITC and a business selling and producing gaming products and running TT miniatures events like the Las Vegas Open.


Right, the reason I asked is I listen to the Long War podcast a lot, and they have talked a lot recently, about how this is like what Team Happy was accused of doing, and I think Wyatt was talking about how Team Happy was mostly made up of "Another influencer group, we won't mention their name here..." I thought he might be talking about FLG, so I just asked if FLG was mostly made up of Team Happy members, or Vice Versa.


referencing something heard on the long war is never a good start. team happy has nothing to do with flg and is generally regarded as a group of the worst type of 40k player.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 01:39:26


Post by: hotsauceman1


Slipspace wrote:
What makes this even worse, IMO, is they specifically decided not to name the person involved in the recent cheating scandal who was definitively caught on video and who issued his own statement acknowledging his wrongdoing. This was, apparently, to prevent reputational damage both inside and outside 40k and give them a chance to rehabilitate.

But in the case of an ex-employee they're happy to make vague insinuations while naming them and warning people away from dealing with him. Something seems very off about their priorities.

There is a difference in cheating in a hobby, and then doing something at work, even if you hobby is work.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 02:51:35


Post by: Cheex


Jesus, what a poor statement by FLG. If you have to fire someone who is public enough that you require a statement to clarify your position, you absolutely do not give a reason for doing so. You are under no obligation to provide a justification, and providing such a vague statement only makes people assume the worst.

My first thought when I read the statement was whether he assaulted or defrauded someone. Imagine what a potential future employer might think. This is exactly why companies don't like to give out references for former employees.

The only reasons I can think of for a business to release this vague statement is if emotions were involved (in which case, sleep on it first for Christ's sake) or if Pablo was involved in legal action (in which case you wait until the allegations are public, and you make it absolutely clear that it's an allegation). Either way, FLG is the bad guy in this situation.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 03:10:37


Post by: Voss


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
What makes this even worse, IMO, is they specifically decided not to name the person involved in the recent cheating scandal who was definitively caught on video and who issued his own statement acknowledging his wrongdoing. This was, apparently, to prevent reputational damage both inside and outside 40k and give them a chance to rehabilitate.

But in the case of an ex-employee they're happy to make vague insinuations while naming them and warning people away from dealing with him. Something seems very off about their priorities.

There is a difference in cheating in a hobby, and then doing something at work, even if you hobby is work.


Maybe? Some events have decent prize pools, while the 'something' here might be 'put mayo on a hot dog at a company picnic,' 'took a picture with an actor they don't like,' 'didn't buy the cocaine for the company party' or 'wandered off with 50K of company assets.' Its just 'something,' apparently, the other two don't approve of. And now he is to be Shunned, so sayeth those on high.

For the facts given, cheating very well could be a bigger deal than... whatever this is about.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 06:57:59


Post by: Table


Off-topic pols removed

BACK ON TOPIC, (for the last time )

The whole thing is suspect. If you are going to come out and blame someone for bad things then you need to list his/her/its transgression's so the customer can at least form a opinion on their own. What happened was not only suspect but also just petty. FLG does not seem like a good place to work at.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 13:56:16


Post by: Tycho


The whole thing just stinks and is a sad commentary on the competitive scene (in the U.S. anyway) in general. Everyone has been getting excited and geared up to have actual tournaments again, and now that we do, the major headlines all seem so negative. We've always seen issues here and there - the occasional "that guy" at a large GT, to the rumors of players from more "famous" teams (not going to name them as I wasn't there so can't speak to the veracity of the claims) getting preferential treatment, but to have the group that's running the show act like this is a bummer.

They've made some flubs in the past which I have generally attributed to a lack of experience running businesses (like Daedalus said - a group of buddies trying to run something), but at this point, they have enough time under their belt to know this is not great. A simple "Pablo no longer works for FLG and, as such, no longer represents the company in any of his dealings." would have been just fine.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 14:11:05


Post by: kirotheavenger


It reads to me like emotions are running pretty hot in FLG around that statement.

That doesn't excuse the gakky message at all though.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 15:10:28


Post by: techsoldaten


 Cheex wrote:
Jesus, what a poor statement by FLG. If you have to fire someone who is public enough that you require a statement to clarify your position, you absolutely do not give a reason for doing so. You are under no obligation to provide a justification, and providing such a vague statement only makes people assume the worst.

My first thought when I read the statement was whether he assaulted or defrauded someone. Imagine what a potential future employer might think. This is exactly why companies don't like to give out references for former employees.

The only reasons I can think of for a business to release this vague statement is if emotions were involved (in which case, sleep on it first for Christ's sake) or if Pablo was involved in legal action (in which case you wait until the allegations are public, and you make it absolutely clear that it's an allegation). Either way, FLG is the bad guy in this situation.


Think about the position this letter puts Pablo in.

The accusations are so non-specific they could mean anything. They come from a company that runs tournaments, manages the ITC rankings, playtests the game with GW, and otherwise enjoys a lot of influence.

If Pablo publicly talks about leaving FLG, that opens the door for FLG to just keep making more ambiguous statements about harm, trust, etc. If he says nothing, he just has to live with whatever Reese has to say. There's not really a third option.

Spewing this kind of poison just makes me mad. The target is put in an impossible situation, he's effectively been cancelled from the hobby. FLG is putting a target on someone's back over an HR dispute and claiming it's in the interests of the community.

Not sure I want to be part of any community where Reese is the shot caller and we all have to live up to his values. Him coming down on people like this is the problem.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 15:35:05


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah, and it's also hard to put it down to the heat of the moment, because they waited a long time to put the statement out. So it's not like they fired him and then rage-posted on Facebook about it 15 minutes later. Enough time passed that they should have been able to cool down enough to realize how lame a statement like this was - to Pablo, to the community, and even to their own reputation.

He may well have done something seriously wrong, I'm not saying he didn't, but we certainly aren't left with an impression that we can take FLG's word for it, based on that statement.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 15:36:33


Post by: Not Online!!!


Do we even know as to why?



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 15:39:41


Post by: yukishiro1


Nobody has any clue. All we know from FLG is we must ostracize him from the tribe for unspeakable crimes.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 15:42:50


Post by: Not Online!!!


yukishiro1 wrote:
Nobody has any clue. All we know from FLG is we must ostracize him from the tribe for unspeakable crimes.


So basically that can range from "had some issues with some one higher up in the food chain or group and we kicked him out and tarred and feathered him" to actual criminal behaviour...

Truly, majestic... considering he isn't in a prison or has to deal with police i go out on a hunch then and say the former.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 16:02:17


Post by: Kanluwen


Not Online!!! wrote:

So basically that can range from "had some issues with some one higher up in the food chain or group and we kicked him out and tarred and feathered him" to actual criminal behaviour...

Truly, majestic... considering he isn't in a prison or has to deal with police i go out on a hunch then and say the former.

Prison is post-trial. I'm not going to say what I really want to as it gets into politics, but prison is not something likely to be involved with whatever this is unless there's physical harm coming to people.

The big takeaway here seems to be the comment was made to make it clear that he has no involvement with them at this time. Could be they had let him go and found out that he's approaching people without mentioning he's left FLG.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 16:03:51


Post by: StrayIight


It might turn out that Pablo is the devil himself. I've no idea.

What I do know is that I'm left with an incredibly bitter taste in my mouth over FLG's behaviour here. I had a certain amount of respect for what they do given the work they've put in in the community. That's largely now evaporated.

I'm disturbed that individuals who are willing to pick and choose which characters they 'assassinate' (which seems a matter of fact rather than opinion given recent statements from them), and who expect us, as a community, to follow their dubious lead, have as much power as they do - they defacto run competitive 40K.

Enough is enough. Without a massive about face and an assurance that they'll do better in future, I don't want any part of what they're selling at this point. I'm a drop in the ocean, and they won't give a gak, but I'll sleep better.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 16:14:43


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Kanluwen wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

So basically that can range from "had some issues with some one higher up in the food chain or group and we kicked him out and tarred and feathered him" to actual criminal behaviour...

Truly, majestic... considering he isn't in a prison or has to deal with police i go out on a hunch then and say the former.

Prison is post-trial. I'm not going to say what I really want to as it gets into politics, but prison is not something likely to be involved with whatever this is unless there's physical harm coming to people.

The big takeaway here seems to be the comment was made to make it clear that he has no involvement with them at this time. Could be they had let him go and found out that he's approaching people without mentioning he's left FLG.


Well, i stated either in prison or has to deal with the police.

And i think your reason as to why they reacted that unprofessionaly could be quite well hitting the nail on the head.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 16:24:49


Post by: techsoldaten


 StrayIight wrote:
It might turn out that Pablo is the devil himself. I've no idea.

What I do know is that I'm left with an incredibly bitter taste in mouth over FLG's behaviour here. I had a certain amount of respect for what they do given the work they've put in in the community. That's largely now evaporated.

I'm disturbed that individuals who are willing to pick and choose which characters they 'assassinate' (which seems a matter of fact rather than opinion given recent statements from them), and who expect us, as a community, to follow their dubious lead, have as much power as they do - they defacto run competitive 40K.

Enough is enough. I don't want any part of what they're selling at this point. I'm a drop in the ocean, and they won't give a gak, but I'll sleep better.


Yes. Reese is advertising 8 upcoming events in another thread. Tempting, but I'd rather wait for other options to develop.

While I'm jonesing for in-person games, part of the appeal is the community. Not the sense I'm propping up FLG's business model, along with whatever this letter represents.

With Adepticon / NOVA Open being cancelled, not sure what other options there are in the near term.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 17:44:56


Post by: StrayIight


 techsoldaten wrote:


Yes. Reese is advertising 8 upcoming events in another thread. Tempting, but I'd rather wait for other options to develop.

While I'm jonesing for in-person games, part of the appeal is the community. Not the sense I'm propping up FLG's business model, along with whatever this letter represents.

With Adepticon / NOVA Open being cancelled, not sure what other options there are in the near term.


It's interesting to hear he's active here. I've heard him speak about Dakka quite disparagingly on 'Signals from the frontline'.

I'd like to hold some hope that he'll see this thread and do some soul-searching.
We're a fairly small sample in this thread, but it's fair to say that on the matter of their behaviour in that statement, we've been overwhelmingly in agreement that this wasn't right.

We're all capable of making mistakes - occasionally, pretty terrible ones. There should almost always be a way back from that, and I'd want them to have that opportunity.
I'd also want them to realise, that in the position they occupy (and have made for themselves largely), their behaviour needs to be far better. Much closer to a standard of 'above reproach' than anyone else in the community.

Certainly better than posting pardons and indictments of individuals like some kind of feudal lord.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 17:54:32


Post by: Sterling191


 StrayIight wrote:

It's interesting to hear he's active here. I've heard him speak about Dakka quite disparagingly on 'Signals from the frontline'.


I wouldn't call it active. It's pretty much purely to advertise various FLG revenue streams (events, merch, commission services, etc.)


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 18:30:13


Post by: techsoldaten


Sterling191 wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:

It's interesting to hear he's active here. I've heard him speak about Dakka quite disparagingly on 'Signals from the frontline'.


I wouldn't call it active. It's pretty much purely to advertise various FLG revenue streams (events, merch, commission services, etc.)


Frontline Gaming uses Dakka for advertising. Probably safe to say the company doesn't participate beyond that.

Responses to the letter I've seen elsewhere have been consistent with this thread. Frontline Gaming should get the message.

As for Frontline Gaming responding - no upside in doing so. Drawing more attention to the letter only makes them look worse.

The irony is obvious. In the letter, Frontline Gaming claims they care about the community and felt they had a responsibility to alert people about Pablo being such a bad hombre. If a single word of that was sincere, they would have posted it on Dakka themselves - you know, since the forum is a communication channel for the company.

This reminds me so much of the situation with Blue Table Painting and the Chaos Dwarves army. The owner shafted a customer over a very expensive paint job and pretended no one noticed. Let's see how long Reece pretends we're not paying attention.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 20:18:04


Post by: Mud Turkey 13


The possibility I could see for the wording would be something where Pablo has possibly stolen from the company and has been selling that stolen product himself without reporting it. This would explain why they do not detail the offense (legal action pending) and also why they are warning people to limit interactions with him (if you buy something from him that was stolen it could possibly be confiscated from you as evidence in the legal case).

I am no law expert, but that could possibly explain the strangeness of the statement.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 20:31:49


Post by: kodos


yes, this is a reason why such things happens

but than you would not write something like "keeping with our values"

in this case it can be that he stole something to sell it off on the black market, as well as secretly painting Tau, or just was planning to talk about Mantic Firefight instead of 40k in the next podcast


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 20:31:52


Post by: yukishiro1


 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The possibility I could see for the wording would be something where Pablo has possibly stolen from the company and has been selling that stolen product himself without reporting it. This would explain why they do not detail the offense (legal action pending) and also why they are warning people to limit interactions with him (if you buy something from him that was stolen it could possibly be confiscated from you as evidence in the legal case).

I am no law expert, but that could possibly explain the strangeness of the statement.


...this is exactly why the sort of detail-free defamation that FLG's statement was full of is so problematic. Now we have people speculating with zero evidence that Pablo was embezzling, when in reality nobody has any clue. You may have worded this as "maybe" personally and I'm not trying to blame you for it - it's a predictable reaction of that sort of statement - but through the magic of Internet Telephone, someone else is going to read this and then repeat it as "he was doing that!" and before you know it it's become Accepted Internet Fact and the guy's reputation is ruined beyond repair, even if the truth is completely different.

Please, people: don't speculate about things you have no idea about that have the potential to destroy someone's future life prospects.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 20:34:26


Post by: Pickled_egg


Edit : removed my comment as noticed the mods had requested no more talk about death head badge. Apologies hadn't read through the full thread.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 20:36:00


Post by: yukishiro1


edit: Guy spotted the prior mod request, ignore this post


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 20:47:49


Post by: Pickled_egg


 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The possibility I could see for the wording would be something where Pablo has possibly stolen from the company and has been selling that stolen product himself without reporting it. This would explain why they do not detail the offense (legal action pending) and also why they are warning people to limit interactions with him (if you buy something from him that was stolen it could possibly be confiscated from you as evidence in the legal case).

I am no law expert, but that could possibly explain the strangeness of the statement.


That's also my interpretation reading between the lines. Makes the most logical sense.





Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 20:59:46


Post by: StrayIight


Pickled_egg wrote:
 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The possibility I could see for the wording would be something where Pablo has possibly stolen from the company and has been selling that stolen product himself without reporting it. This would explain why they do not detail the offense (legal action pending) and also why they are warning people to limit interactions with him (if you buy something from him that was stolen it could possibly be confiscated from you as evidence in the legal case).

I am no law expert, but that could possibly explain the strangeness of the statement.


That's also my interpretation reading between the lines. Makes the most logical sense.



No.

I'm in full agreement with Yuki above. We don't get to speculate on what Pablo may have done, and doing so makes us no better than Reese and Frankie making that statement. You can hurt his future prospects and reputation further by doing so.

I don't think it's right to engage in apologetics on FLG's behalf either.

Regardless of what Pablo (who I am in no way a fan of incidentally - I think his content is pretty terrible), may have done, they do not get to use their platform and position to damage his employability without serious justification. Not only that, they essentially implied that the community should effectively shun him. Both, on nothing more than their say so.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:15:53


Post by: Pickled_egg


 StrayIight wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
The possibility I could see for the wording would be something where Pablo has possibly stolen from the company and has been selling that stolen product himself without reporting it. This would explain why they do not detail the offense (legal action pending) and also why they are warning people to limit interactions with him (if you buy something from him that was stolen it could possibly be confiscated from you as evidence in the legal case).

I am no law expert, but that could possibly explain the strangeness of the statement.


That's also my interpretation reading between the lines. Makes the most logical sense.



No.

I'm in full agreement with Yuki above. We don't get to speculate on what Pablo may have done, and doing so makes us no better than Reese and Frankie making that statement. You can hurt his future prospects and reputation further by doing so.

I don't think it's right to engage in apologetics on FLG's behalf either.

Regardless of what Pablo (who I am in no way a fan of incidentally - I think his content is pretty terrible), may have done, they do not get to use their platform and position to damage his employability without serious justification. Not only that, they essentially implied that the community should effectively shun him. Both, on nothing more than their say so.


Then close the thread if you can't handle adults drawing conclusions based on what's heavily implied in FLG's statement.

I see a lot of people questioning FLG's integrity and speculating as to their motives without being in full possession of all the facts, which is no different to what we are doing, but you aren't leaping to FLG's defense.

I'm not a FLG apologist either, but the door has to swing both ways.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:26:41


Post by: StrayIight


Pickled_egg wrote:


Then close the thread if you can't handle adults drawing conclusions based on what's heavily implied in FLG's statement.

I see a lot of people questioning FLG's integrity and speculating as to their motives but you aren't leaping to FLG's defense.

I'm not a FLG apologist either, but the door has to swing both ways.


I'm aghast that any reasonable 'adult' would think it ok to draw the conclusion that 'Pablo has been stealing and reselling said stolen goods'.

You please show me what in that statement can be used to draw that conclusion. Because that conjecture is precisely what we have an issue with.

Again, it is not ok for anyone to be doing ,potentially, literal harm to this individual and their family, based on idiot internet guesswork, and poorly thought-through comments.

If someone had said 'Perhaps this involves a legal issue', then fine. But 'Perhaps Pablo committed [insert specific crime]' is simply not. In many places, it's dangerously close to slander.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:26:52


Post by: Catulle


 kodos wrote:
but than you would not write something like "keeping with our values"


Their value base involves denial, self-justification and smearing of critics in the face of placing obvious nazi iconography on display.

Their values aren't worth gak *already.*

This directly impacts the present statement since FLG themselves refer to it. Trying to exclude their past behaviour when they couch the present scenario in those terms is pure whitewash.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:31:54


Post by: yukishiro1


Pickled_egg wrote:


Then close the thread if you can't handle adults drawing conclusions based on what's heavily implied in FLG's statement.

I see a lot of people questioning FLG's integrity and speculating as to their motives without being in full possession of all the facts, which is no different to what we are doing, but you aren't leaping to FLG's defense.

I'm not a FLG apologist either, but the door has to swing both ways.


That's a false equivalency. FLG put out a statement; criticizing that statement is not unfair speculation, it's a reaction to something FLG itself put out. It's not defaming someone to criticize what they actually said. When you open your mouth, you lose the right to complain when others respond to what you say.

On the other hand, speculating about what the subject of the defamatory statement may have done, when you don't actually have any actual idea, is both irresponsible and serves to amplify the effect of the defamation.

If you find yourself having to "read between the lines" of a defamatory statement, it's a good clue you shouldn't be. If and when Pablo makes his own statement, that is when you can talk about how "the door has to swing both ways." In this case, it's more like you saw FLG swing the door into Pablo's face, then gave it a second swing into his face while saying "oh well, doors are gonna swing."


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:32:10


Post by: Polonius


I should know better, but Dakka's zest for playing amateur attorney is really bad today. Let's start with the thing that made me laugh out loud:

yukishiro1 wrote:
...this is exactly why the sort of detail-free defamation that FLG's statement was full of is so problematic.


Pretty much by definition, defamation requires a false statement, and a statement that is vague and lacking in details cannot be false. Saying a person "acted against our values" is an opinion, which is protected speech and not defamation. Like it or not, a person or company can say "this person is a bad guy, you shouldn't trust them," and there is really no legal claim to be made.

I will agree with the assessment that a letter like this is unusual. Normally when a business terminates an employee, they don't comment at all. Given that the employee in question is a front facing person, and is, at least within the niche of 40k, "internet famous," a company actively separating themselves from somebody they see as damaging to their reputation is not unusual.

So, why no specifics in the letter? I have a bit of a rule of thumb, which is that when a statement comes out that seems highly polished, but also seems uncertain about what it's trying to say, the root cause is a schism within the group that issues the statement. My guess is that there were some within FLG who wanted to fully out Pablo for whatever he did, and some who wanted to more quietly let him go. Statements like this are the sort of mushy mouthed compromise that are often referred to as camels... you know, the horse that was designed by committee?



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:32:55


Post by: Dysartes


Sterling191 wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:

It's interesting to hear he's active here. I've heard him speak about Dakka quite disparagingly on 'Signals from the frontline'.


I wouldn't call it active. It's pretty much purely to advertise various FLG revenue streams (events, merch, commission services, etc.)


I'm trying to decide if I'm bored enough to poke my nose in one of those threads and ask if their communications regarding the event will be more professional than their recent efforts regarding an ex-employee...


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:34:48


Post by: Pickled_egg


 StrayIight wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:


Then close the thread if you can't handle adults drawing conclusions based on what's heavily implied in FLG's statement.

I see a lot of people questioning FLG's integrity and speculating as to their motives but you aren't leaping to FLG's defense.

I'm not a FLG apologist either, but the door has to swing both ways.


I'm aghast that any reasonable 'adult' would think it ok to draw the conclusion that 'Pablo has been stealing and reselling said stolen goods'.

You please show me what in that statement can be used to draw that conclusion. Because that conjecture is precisely what we have an issue with.

Again, it is not ok for anyone to be doing ,potentially, literal harm to this individual and their family, based on idiot internet guesswork, and poorly thought-through comments.

If someone had said 'Perhaps this involves a legal issue', then fine. But 'Perhaps Pablo committed [insert specific crime]' is simply not. In many places, it's dangerously close to slander.


Yet you're totally fine with all the conjecture about FLG and their motives?

This whole thread is speculation, conjecture and people drawing their own conclusions based on the information at hand.

As I say the door swings both ways.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:39:12


Post by: StrayIight


Pickled_egg wrote:


Yet you're totally fine with all the conjecture about FLG and their motives?

This whole thread is speculation, conjecture and people drawing their own conclusions based on the information at hand.

As I say the door swings both ways.



I absolutely am. They have made a public statement which invites criticism. Their behaviour here should be questioned.

There is nothing speculative about the substance of a written statement and the likely affect it will have on the individual named in it.

On the other hand, Pablo has said nothing, and we have no indication whatsoever if he has even been guilty of an act that warrants the kind of questioning of his character that FLG have called for and that you seem happy to engage in.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:48:13


Post by: Pickled_egg


 StrayIight wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:


Yet you're totally fine with all the conjecture about FLG and their motives?

This whole thread is speculation, conjecture and people drawing their own conclusions based on the information at hand.

As I say the door swings both ways.



I absolutely am. They have made a public statement which invites criticism. Their behaviour here should be questioned.

There is nothing speculative about the substance of a written statement and the likely affect it will have on the individual named in it.

On the other hand, Pablo has said nothing, and we have no indication whatsoever if he has even been guilty of an act that warrants the kind of questioning of his character that FLG have called for and that you seem happy to engage in.


I watched the podcast where they initially announced that Pablo had left the company, they left it very short and sweet simply stating he had left and was no longer associated with the company. they then got asked like a dozen times in chat why he was leaving and why he wasn't getting any kind of send off like previous staff members that left had received. I mean he had been with FLG for many years and was clearly tight with them on a personal level.
So it was patently obvious to anyone with a brain that he must have done something serious to be dismissed in that manner.
I then watched the subsequent podcast and again they were inundated with comments along the lines of "Why are you doing Pablo so dirty?" "Wheres Pablo" "Why did you sack Pablo?" etc etc. At which point Reece said they were going to put out a statement.

So I'm not really sure what you want them to do, they put out a statement you criticise them, they don't put out a statement they get criticised.

It's obvious that something serious went down, To be crystal clear I'm not claiming to be in possession of any of the facts.

Adults will put the pieces together for themselves. Draw your own conclusion.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:49:16


Post by: yukishiro1


 Polonius wrote:
I should know better, but Dakka's zest for playing amateur attorney is really bad today. Let's start with the thing that made me laugh out loud:

yukishiro1 wrote:
...this is exactly why the sort of detail-free defamation that FLG's statement was full of is so problematic.


Pretty much by definition, defamation requires a false statement, and a statement that is vague and lacking in details cannot be false. Saying a person "acted against our values" is an opinion, which is protected speech and not defamation. Like it or not, a person or company can say "this person is a bad guy, you shouldn't trust them," and there is really no legal claim to be made.


This is both untrue, and highly ironic given the comment about amateur attorneys. You can certainly defame someone with a vague statement. Whoever told you that defamation requires a specific allegation is the one you should be criticizing for making you look like the amateur attorney (as well as looking foolish for calling someone else out on an alleged misunderstanding of the law, only for it to be you who misunderstood). The distinction in defamation law is not between vague and specific, but between statements of fact and opinion.

"We fired him because he acted against our values" is not the defamatory part of the statement, nobody said it was.

It is the multiple places the statement insinuates that Pablo is not trustworthy and is a danger to their customers that is defamatory. The statement is worded in a weasely way, but the clear purpose is to communicate a factual assertion that Pablo is untrustworthy and a danger to customers, and that he was fired because of this. That isn't just an opinion, it's a factual allegation, just like "Pablo is corrupt" or "Pablo is a thief" is a factual allegation, whether it is vague as to specifics or not.

You cannot escape defamation liability just by being vague. If you write "I hear Bob is a bit loose with his morals when it comes to John's wife," you don't get to say "hey, I never actually said they were having an affair!" to defend yourself from a libel claim. Just like you don't get to say "We fired Pablo because we found out he was doing something that was a danger to our customers, we're warning our customers not to trust him if approached, breath of trust, trust, trust, trust, customer, customer, customer" and then say "well that was just an opinion, not a factual assertion that Pablo is untrustworthy and a danger to customers!"

But this isn't about whether Pablo could sue. Obviously he's not going to. This is about whether the statement is defamatory towards him in the way the term is commonly used, and it certainly is. Nobody reading that statement would not come away with the impression that FLG was attempting to do harm to his reputation (whether justified or not).


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:51:03


Post by: StrayIight


Pickled_egg wrote:

So I'm not really sure what you want them to do, they put out a statement you criticise them, they don't put out a statement they get criticised.


I don't know.

How about 'put out a professional statement that isn't defamatory'?


Pickled_egg wrote:

It's obvious that something serious went down


Is it? Serious according to who? We have no idea what happened. It could literally be anything from calling Reese a 'silly billy', to being caught planning genocide during company hours.

That's the point. They're asking for us to take their word that an individual is shady, and should be treated as X, based on nothing more than that same word. Some might call that an abuse of a position.

I've worked with some individuals who were fired for some very serious reasons indeed. One in particular, exceedingly so. Still at no point, did the company feel it necessary to get the rest of the industry or the customer base, publicly involved.




Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:52:26


Post by: Kanluwen


Frankly it seems like you're primed to view any statement as defamatory just because the other guy has not commented.

I don't like FLG, but I see no issues with what they've done especially in light of them being badgered over things.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:52:28


Post by: Polonius


Re-reading the statement by FLG, it is actually interest how carefully worded it was. It avoids even the slightest hint of statement about his actions. It says merely that he "behaved in a manner not in keeping with our values" which is 100% a statement of opinion, and could reflect anything from a sharply worded email to criminal activity. It talks about a break of trust, but trust is a unilateral emotion, and thus also essentially an opinion.

The more I think about it, the more this was a very well thought out statement, in that it stated that he was dismissed for cause, but gave zero suggestion what that cause was.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:53:30


Post by: Kanluwen


Also let people know that he was no longer affiliated with them, in case he opted to try to shop some ideas out there as though he had their backing.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:54:05


Post by: Pickled_egg


 Polonius wrote:
Re-reading the statement by FLG, it is actually interest how carefully worded it was. It avoids even the slightest hint of statement about his actions. It says merely that he "behaved in a manner not in keeping with our values" which is 100% a statement of opinion, and could reflect anything from a sharply worded email to criminal activity. It talks about a break of trust, but trust is a unilateral emotion, and thus also essentially an opinion.

The more I think about it, the more this was a very well thought out statement, in that it stated that he was dismissed for cause, but gave zero suggestion what that cause was.


In this day and age they probably got legal advice on the wording. I would if I was running a company.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:57:22


Post by: yukishiro1


 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly it seems like you're primed to view any statement as defamatory just because the other guy has not commented.


If they had just said "Pablo no longer is employed by us, please keep in mind in any future dealings with him that he does not represent us and is not endorsed by us" nobody would be talking about it, other than to say that "wow, they must really have fallen out."

Please don't make accusations of bad faith (i.e. you would have done X anyway, you said Y but you don't really mean it, etc), they destroy any potential for discussion.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:57:23


Post by: kirotheavenger


The problem is, "serious" could mean anything.

Maybe Pablo slept with Reese's sister. That'd torpedo a friendship pretty quick. But it's not as serious as theft

It's quite clear what the criticism of FLG's statement is about. It's sitting on the fence between not saying anything and actually giving the details. It implies some heinous act and invites further specllulation, without actually giving any details.
If they had come down on either side of the fence; giving details or not implying anything, it would be a much better statement and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

They handled better at first, by not giving out details. They could easily have kept that line.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:59:34


Post by: Polonius


yukishiro1 wrote:
This is both untrue, and highly ironic given the comment about amateur attorneys. You can certainly defame someone with a vague statement. Whoever told you that defamation requires a specific allegation is the one you should be criticizing for making you look like the amateur attorney (as well as looking foolish for calling someone else out on an alleged misunderstanding of the law, only for it to be you who misunderstood). The distinction in defamation law is not between vague and specific, but between statements of fact and opinion.

"We fired him because he acted against our values" is not the defamatory part of the statement, nobody said it was.


okay. Yes, I spoke a bit loosely, but since providing zero details about conduct makes it very easy to say it was opinion.

It is the multiple places the statement insinuates that Pablo is not trustworthy and is a danger to their customers that is defamatory. The statement is worded in a weasely way, but the clear purpose is to communicate a factual assertion that Pablo is untrustworthy and a danger to customers, and that he was fired because of this. That isn't just an opinion, it's a factual allegation, just like "Pablo is corrupt" or "Pablo is a thief" is a factual allegation, whether it is vague as to specifics or not.


They didn't say he was untrustworthy or a danger to their customers. If you read it closely, they avoid both statements. They said "his breach of our trust left us with no alternative but to dismiss him." To prove this statement was true, they would simply need to find one way they trusted him, and he did not fully meet their expectations. This is a trivial statement to prove true. They also stated that no customers were harmed, but simply that they want to "continue to protect our customers."

You cannot escape defamation liability just by being vague. If you write "I hear Bob is a bit loose with his morals when it comes to John's wife," you don't get to say "hey, I never actually said they were having an affair!" to defend yourself from a libel claim. Just like you don't get to say "We fired Pablo because we found out he was doing something that was a danger to our customers, we're warning our customers not to trust him if approached, breath of trust, trust, trust, trust, customer, customer, customer" and then say "well that was just an opinion, not a factual assertion that Pablo is untrustworthy and a danger to customers!"


If their statement was what you wrote, sure, that's vague but also clearly implies specific enough wrong doing to be a statement of fact. Saying "he behaved in a way we did not approve, and we no longer trust him" are going to be very tough statments of fact to prove false.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 21:59:47


Post by: Pickled_egg


 StrayIight wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:

So I'm not really sure what you want them to do, they put out a statement you criticise them, they don't put out a statement they get criticised.


I don't know.

How about 'put out a professional statement that isn't defamatory'?


Pickled_egg wrote:

It's obvious that something serious went down


Is it? Serious according to who? We have no idea what happened. It could literally be anything from calling Reese a 'silly billy', to being caught planning genocide during company hours.

That's the point. They're asking for us to take their word that an individual is shady, and should be treated as X, based on nothing more than that same word.




As I said I'm no more in possession of the facts than you are. But they knew the guy for at least a decade, he was their friend. I find it highly unlikely that they would sack him over something as insignificant as a few heated words.

Maybe that's the way they roll, but I doubt it somehow.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 22:02:11


Post by: Polonius


Pickled_egg wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Re-reading the statement by FLG, it is actually interest how carefully worded it was. It avoids even the slightest hint of statement about his actions. It says merely that he "behaved in a manner not in keeping with our values" which is 100% a statement of opinion, and could reflect anything from a sharply worded email to criminal activity. It talks about a break of trust, but trust is a unilateral emotion, and thus also essentially an opinion.

The more I think about it, the more this was a very well thought out statement, in that it stated that he was dismissed for cause, but gave zero suggestion what that cause was.


In this day and age they probably got legal advice on the wording. I would if I was running a company.


If they did, they probably didn't follow it. Very few lawyers are going to advise putting out a statement like that.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 22:08:02


Post by: yukishiro1


 Polonius wrote:

They didn't say he was untrustworthy or a danger to their customers. If you read it closely, they avoid both statements. They said "his breach of our trust left us with no alternative but to dismiss him." To prove this statement was true, they would simply need to find one way they trusted him, and he did not fully meet their expectations. This is a trivial statement to prove true. They also stated that no customers were harmed, but simply that they want to "continue to protect our customers."


That's not all they said. The point is that you can't avoid defamation liability by just saying you let the reader fill in the blanks to reach the defamatory conclusion. The question is what a reasonable reader would make of the statement in question. Here they said:

While none of our customers were affected by Pablo’s actions, his breach of our trust left us with no alternative but to dismiss him. His actions were such that this was the safest way to limit the damage to our company and to continue to protect our customers.

Normally, we wouldn’t be writing about this sort of thing, it’s a messy business and not our usual brand of tabletop fun. But we care a lot about this community, and with Pablo reaching out to some of you, we felt a responsibility to make it clear he was now acting on his own behalf and was in no way affiliated with Frontline Gaming.

We wanted to warn you that any goods or services he offers up in the future, are independent from us and undertaken at your own risk.


I highlighted the bits that, taken together, certainly amount to leaving the reader with the factual impression that Pablo did something that threatened both FLG and its customers, and that he is a danger to anyone he approaches in a business context.

Again, I'm not saying I'd sue over it if I was him (even if it is 100% false and made-up). Actually suing over defamation is almost always a fool's errand. But it is certainly a defamatory statement in the way the term is commonly used.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 22:23:32


Post by: Pickled_egg


If this was something personal like they had a massive row, he slept with Reece's sister or they had a punch up, even if he was caught doing coke in the company toilets or something, those thing would probably merit his sacking but none of those things would explain the wording in that statement.

The statement tells you everything without telling you everything, its very clever.




Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 22:29:13


Post by: Voss


 Polonius wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Re-reading the statement by FLG, it is actually interest how carefully worded it was. It avoids even the slightest hint of statement about his actions. It says merely that he "behaved in a manner not in keeping with our values" which is 100% a statement of opinion, and could reflect anything from a sharply worded email to criminal activity. It talks about a break of trust, but trust is a unilateral emotion, and thus also essentially an opinion.

The more I think about it, the more this was a very well thought out statement, in that it stated that he was dismissed for cause, but gave zero suggestion what that cause was.


In this day and age they probably got legal advice on the wording. I would if I was running a company.


If they did, they probably didn't follow it. Very few lawyers are going to advise putting out a statement like that.


What, you think a lawyer's advice wouldn't be 'put out some vague insinuations' instead of a simple 'We've parted ways with Bob and he is no longer affiliated with our organization?' Shocking thought.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 22:57:28


Post by: Racerguy180


If the only assurances that FLG has to back up their claim that they need to protect customers from him is THEIR "honor"....that's a foundation for a crappy building.

"Trust FLG, better not to do business with Pablo" apparently is all that's required?


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 22:59:31


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Pickled_egg wrote:
If this was something personal like they had a massive row, he slept with Reece's sister or they had a punch up, even if he was caught doing coke in the company toilets or something, those thing would probably merit his sacking but none of those things would explain the wording in that statement.

The statement tells you everything without telling you everything, its very clever.



Except it doesn't, LOL. Either they need to man up and explain what it is or they're going to get continuously (and rightfully so) badgered and questioned about what happened.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:20:10


Post by: Polonius


yukishiro1 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
While none of our customers were affected by Pablo’s actions, his breach of our trust left us with no alternative but to dismiss him. His actions were such that this was the safest way to limit the damage to our company and to continue to protect our customers. We wanted to warn you that any goods or services he offers up in the future, are independent from us and undertaken at your own risk.


I highlighted the bits that, taken together, certainly amount to leaving the reader with the factual impression that Pablo did something that threatened both FLG and its customers, and that he is a danger to anyone he approaches in a business context.


There are two problems with your theory of this case. The first is that when you read it closely, it doesn't say that. It uses semi scary words like "warn" and "risk," but when read plainly, they don't suggest anything but a subjective sense of concern by FLG over their business and it's customers.

Which leads to the bigger problem: proving that those statements are false. Defamation requires a false statement, and FLG can prove that their statement is true using information that is commonly available. For example, they could say "we trusted pablo with a podcast. Unfortunately, we've gotten steady feedback that he was not a good host. As that podcasts is a profit center, a way of building the brand, and a valued source of information to our customers. Continuing to allow him to share inaccurate information and speak over hosts would hurt us, and we had to let him go." So, their statement becomes true, and truth is an affirmative defense.

Courts will not allow a clear insinuation to slide, but a vague statement about loss of trust and harm to the brand or customers can be such a wide range of actions, it's unthinkable that they couldn't name one.

Again, I'm not saying I'd sue over it if I was him (even if it is 100% false and made-up). Actually suing over defamation is almost always a fool's errand. But it is certainly a defamatory statement in the way the term is commonly used.


The way the term is used most commonly is incorrect, of course. Its certainly a statement that harms somebody's reputation, but that's not the actual definition of defamation.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:20:33


Post by: General Kroll


This reminds me of when that drama Queen you went to school with posts something like.

“I wish people would stop stirring in my business.”

Followed by ten comments from her friends asking..

“U ok hun?”


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:22:09


Post by: Polonius


Racerguy180 wrote:
If the only assurances that FLG has to back up their claim that they need to protect customers from him is THEIR "honor"....that's a foundation for a crappy building.

"Trust FLG, better not to do business with Pablo" apparently is all that's required?


Again, reread the statement. You're filling in gaps that aren't there. They said they will continue to protect their customers, but not from him. They warn people that Pablo's goods and services aren't FLG, but they do not say not to do business with him.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:49:42


Post by: StrayIight


 Polonius wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
If the only assurances that FLG has to back up their claim that they need to protect customers from him is THEIR "honor"....that's a foundation for a crappy building.

"Trust FLG, better not to do business with Pablo" apparently is all that's required?


Again, reread the statement. You're filling in gaps that aren't there. They said they will continue to protect their customers, but not from him. They warn people that Pablo's goods and services aren't FLG, but they do not say not to do business with him.


You're correct, they don't overtly say those things.

But come on, the implication in that statement is abundantly clear. The most generous possible reading of what is said, leaves little in the way of illusion as to what they are communicating regarding the individual in question.

When you wish to not throw someone under a bus professionally, you write a statement like:

'We here at X have parted ways with Y, and while the circumstances that lead to this were not ideal, we wish them the best in their future endeavours'.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:52:23


Post by: Racerguy180


Yeah, their statement STRONGLY implies it.


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:53:14


Post by: yukishiro1


People are filling in "gaps" that are intended to be filled in by the way the statement is constructed. Just like "John and Mike's wife are a bit loose with their morals" is inviting a certain kind of speculation. You can't then turn around and say "oh, I didn't mean they were having an affair, just that I saw the two of them litter the other day!"

The idea that they weren't intending to communicate that they were protecting their customers by firing him is, frankly, not serious.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:53:52


Post by: Kanluwen


yukishiro1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly it seems like you're primed to view any statement as defamatory just because the other guy has not commented.


If they had just said "Pablo no longer is employed by us, please keep in mind in any future dealings with him that he does not represent us and is not endorsed by us" nobody would be talking about it, other than to say that "wow, they must really have fallen out."

Please don't make accusations of bad faith (i.e. you would have done X anyway, you said Y but you don't really mean it, etc), they destroy any potential for discussion.

You've done that pretty well yourself to start with, immediately leaping to this whole thing being "defamation".


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/17 23:59:25


Post by: yukishiro1


 Kanluwen wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly it seems like you're primed to view any statement as defamatory just because the other guy has not commented.


If they had just said "Pablo no longer is employed by us, please keep in mind in any future dealings with him that he does not represent us and is not endorsed by us" nobody would be talking about it, other than to say that "wow, they must really have fallen out."

Please don't make accusations of bad faith (i.e. you would have done X anyway, you said Y but you don't really mean it, etc), they destroy any potential for discussion.

You've done that pretty well yourself to start with, immediately leaping to this whole thing being "defamation".


FLG isn't a participant in this thread. We have to speculate about their intent from what they said elsewhere, because they haven't said what their intent was here. The problem with hurling bad faith accusations at people you are discussing things with is it kills any discussion, because there's nowhere to go from "no, I know better than you do what you think." Interpreting a statement someone has made isn't a bad faith attack - a bad faith attack is "I don't care that you told me you think X, I know you really think Y and that's why you're wrong."

It is absolutely a defamatory statement, in that part of the intent is unambiguously to damage Pablo's reputation. Surely not even you would disagree with that?

Now if your point is that it isn't defamatory if it's true...that's the whole issue people have with the statement: it is an attack on Pablo's character and integrity without providing any of the details necessary for someone reading it to make an opinion on its truth. So that's exactly why it feels defamatory in this case.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/18 02:12:17


Post by: techsoldaten


yukishiro1 wrote:
It is absolutely a defamatory statement, in that part of the intent is unambiguously to damage Pablo's reputation. Surely not even you would disagree with that?

Now if your point is that it isn't defamatory if it's true...that's the whole issue people have with the statement: it is an attack on Pablo's character and integrity without providing any of the details necessary for someone reading it to make an opinion on its truth. So that's exactly why it feels defamatory in this case.


Not sure the talk about defamation matters. Hiring a lawyer costs a lot and a trial offers no guarantees. Pablo is probably not flush with cash right now.

Sometimes people in this hobby get egos and use them to hurt other people. Frontline Gaming fired an employee, it should have ended there. But they used their position to end his career and that is wrong. Whatever Pablo did may not matter as much as what Frontline Gaming is doing. At the very least, they need to remove that letter and offer Pablo a heartfelt apology.

This kind of stuff really ticks me off. Last time something this bad happened was when Blue Table Painting fleeced someone out of thousands to paint an army at a really low level of quality. That money was returned after an open, spirited and robust discussion of BTP's corporate ethos.

When it happened, these posts were in the top 5 Google Results for keyword searches on BTP, Painting Service, and a few other key phrases for months.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/706117.page#9106283

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/706117.page#9124915

Each had a few hundred backlinks from search engines and were copied word for word in a number of blogs. Ironically, someone set up some signpost pages offering strong encouragement to use Frontline Gaming's painting service instead of BTPs. Someone might have told me it had about 20k clickthroughs over the course of a year, which probably means a fair amount of revenue was redirected from one to the other.

Looking at Frontline Gaming's SERP, looks like they get about 8k searches a month and the key phrases associated with them are mats, store, second hand store, ebay, terrain and itc. The average web page that ranks in the top 10 has about 17 backlinks and a domain authority of 68. That drops off significantly for every one of their actual lines of business, which implies a lot of their authority comes strictly from articles. There's also a lot of overlap in results from video game companies that include frontline in the name, which opens some vectors in forums for high-traffic gaming sites.

Looking at SERP for Las Vegas Open, their situation is a little less stable. Average of 5 backlinks for Top 10 links on search engines and a DA of 69. Fortunately, that name has a ton of overlap with traditional sports - high traffic boxing, food and wine, health and wellness sites, gun sites, etc all include this exact phrase. It would be very easy to saturate the first few pages of search engine listings with links leading back to complaints about these events. I mean, between Facebook, Dakka, and Twitter - there are tons. And paid search engine advertising can be had for less than a $0.01 CPC.

Anyways, Frontline Gaming does next to nothing to manage their own reputation, they shouldn't be doing this to other people. Might be fun to manage their reputation for a while until they act responsibly with the influence they have left.



Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/18 02:24:25


Post by: yukishiro1


I wasn't using defamation in its technical legal sense, just in the more generally understood sense of an attack designed to damage someone's reputation. And it very clearly is precisely that.

Two wrongs don't make a right, I don't see how showing them a taste of their own medicine really serves anybody's interests. We ought to be aiming for a friendlier hobby where self-appointed guardians of the community don't do things like this statement. If he really did something serious enough to warrant a statement like that, FLG owes it to the community it purports to care about to say what it actually was that was so terrible. It's so mealy-mouthed and irresponsible to say "he did something really bad, it's going to take us months to recover from the mental shock because it was so bad, but we won't tell you what it was."


Pablo has been let go from FLG @ 2021/05/18 10:08:47


Post by: ingtaer


As this thread has devolved into making vague assertions and baseless speculation about Pablo I am locking it. If any actual news comes to light as to the situation at FLG then please PM a mod to have this thread reopened.