I'm pretty sure this is a "ask your TO for ruling" thing but wanted to know if there's a definitive answer.

I've had two guys who are TO in the local tournament scene who doesn't believe this is legal, thinking that stratagems are only locked into their respect codex units.

Supreme Detachment
-Mortarian

Any other non-Auxiliary Detachment having:
-CSM Sorcerer

In game: Mortarion uses the CSM "Chaos Familiar" stratagem to replace one of his powers to use the Dark Hereticus "Warp Time" power.

Chaos Familiar stratagem reads:
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a friendly Heretic Astartes Psyker. That model can replace any of its psychic powers with a power of your choice from the Dark Hereticus discipline.

Mortarion satisfies the stratagem's requirements having both the Heretic Astartes and Psyker key words.

I know, specifically, that the GW FAQ locked down the Codex Demon strategems to Codex demon armies. So, it's likely when the new CSM codex is released, they'll nuke this combo.

Is there anything else that could be argued to prohibit this combo?

I hate it, but RAW I think it works.

Double checking... even the Sorcerer in the CSM codex has "Psyker" and "Heretic Astartes" as separate keywords so on that point Mortarion is good to go.

So I guess the question is whether there's a general rule hidden off somewhere preventing stratagems from one detachment being used on models in another detachment.

 solkan wrote:

So I guess the question is whether there's a general rule hidden off somewhere preventing stratagems from one detachment being used on models in another detachment.

Exactly why I'm posing this question.

Evidently, you could do this in the previous Death Guard codex...here's BoLS article:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/stupid-40k-tricks-the-morty-swap.html

I'm not seeing in 9th edition anything has changed...

As long as you have a valid Chaos Space Marine detachment to unlock access to their stratagems, then yes, you can apply a stratagem to any unit that has the required keywords.

If you were to say that stratagems could only affect units from the same codex, then stratagems that apply to enemy units (e.g. Daemonic Possession) would never work.

Yes, its still legal.

Yes, it's legal

Thank you everyone. I appreciate you all.

Legal, but unnecessary imo. Better to use a sorcerer from allied detachment to slingshot him up and let him use his powers offensively when up in the lines.

Doohicky wrote:
Legal, but unnecessary imo. Better to use a sorcerer from allied detachment to slingshot him up and let him use his powers offensively when up in the lines.

Eh... not practical in many cases as the range of warptime is 3".

If range is of concern, bring in a TS exalted sorcer for that extra 6".

This topic has been debated before.

Can't find the thread. But it was legal.

Warptime doesnt work on morty anymore. He has no <legion>.

*Page 168 – Warptime
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If manifested, pick a <Legion> unit (excluding Aircraft) within
3" of the Psyker.’

 p5freak wrote:
Warptime doesnt work on morty anymore. He has no <legion>.

*Page 168 – Warptime
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If manifested, pick a <Legion> unit (excluding Aircraft) within
3" of the Psyker.’

The Chaos Space Marines codex identifies both Thousand Sons and Death Guard as Legion keywords - you're not allowed to give units either keyword in place of Legion, but Mortarion already has it by default.

From page 118 of Codex Chaos Space Marines:

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from.

The codex is clear. You can not replace <LEGION> with DEATH GUARD, THOUSAND SONS or FALLEN.

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 118 of Codex Chaos Space Marines:

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from.

The codex is clear. You can not replace <LEGION> with DEATH GUARD, THOUSAND SONS or FALLEN.

I think it's clear that's what GW intended, but not's not what that actually says. It says you can't choose DG. Mortarion already has DG. In fact, it technically implies that DG is a <LEGION> by saying that you can't choose it - if it wasn't a <LEGION>, they wouldn't need that caveat - just like there's nothing saying that you can't pick ULTRAMARINES as your legion.

The whole thing is ridiculous, but RAW it still works - Mortarion can swap out the power, and when he does, the <LEGION> in it is replaced with <DG> because that's the <Legion> keyword he has.

Note this continuing ability for DG to use CSM strats also means that you can use, say, Vets on DG units if you have a CSM detachment. Again, pretty stupid and pretty clearly not intended, but RAW, it works.

And Imperial Armor FAQ makes it explicit that DG and TS are both <LEGIONs>, despite the CSM book saying that you can't give units in that book those two <LEGION> keywords.

Page 115 – Chaos Space Marine Datasheets
Add the following:
‘Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.

Because you aren't giving Mortarion any keyword using the CSM book, you can still swap out one of his powers to warptime using it, and his warptime will work on DG.

From the Codex Chaos Space Marines FAQ v1.2

*Page 168 – Warptime
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If manifested, pick a <LEGION> unit (excluding Aircraft) within 3" of the Psyker.'

What keywords Mortarion has is not the problem. That instance of the keyword may not be changed to DEATH GUARD.

But it doesn't say that anywhere. It says you cannot change a <LEGION> keyword on a unit from the CSM book to <Death Guard>. That's not what you're doing here. Mortarion already has <Deathguard> as his <Legion> keyword, and he's not from the CSM book.

All that rule says is you can't take, say, a generic CSM Daemon Prince from the CSM book with the <LEGION> keyword and replace that with <Death Guard>. It says nothing about being unable to replace the <Legion> in any psychic powers with <Death Guard> if the model has <Death Guard> on its datasheet. The language is very specific in only referring to choosing what Legion a unit in the book is from. You aren't doing that with Mortarion when you swap in Warptime.

Again, it is clearly not intended. But in typical GW fashion, they haven't actually closed this loophole fully yet.

I don't see Death Guard as a legion in the chaos space marines codex, nor thousand sons. So not sure if you can swap in Legions not mentioned into the newly updated and nerfed warptime spell or not.

I do recall reading in one or both chaos space marines codex, that Death guard and thousand sons are so different from the rest of the legions that they will be handled in their own codex's. So that leads me to think that if the new death guard don't have access to dark hereticus, neither will the chaos familiar. Or just as bad... you have given Mortarion warptime but you can't select thousand sons nor death guard legions.

Then again, GW never just spells it out nice n clean, so you might be okay.


Then again, if you can't change a legion keyword unit to deathguard one in this codex, why would you be allowed to do that for a psychic power? I don't think you would.

Imperial Armor makes 100% clear that DG and TS *are* legions. It explicitly says they are. The only thing the CSM Codex says you can't choose DG or TS as the <LEGION> for a CSM codex unit. In Mortarion's case, you are neither choosing a <LEGION>, nor is he in the CSM book, so even if you were, the CSM book text wouldn't prevent you from doing it.

It's actually pretty clear RAW, it's just the usual situation where people don't think it *should* work, so they try to find ways to say that it doesn't. But that's the distinction between RAW and RAI.

E.g. RAW, Paragon Warsuits cost 240 points a model right now. Is that obviously an error? Yes, but it's what the book says RAW.

RAW, Mortarion can still replace a power with warptime, and when he does, it becomes "select a DEATH GUARD unit..."

So you are saying that based on a 3rd book.... which is not a FAQ, that in fact the 1st and 2nd book are indeed related, maybe just 2nd cousins? That's reaching a bit to be honest.

"It's acutally pretty clear RAI, its just the usual situation where just because a FAQ came out that people think it should still work they way it did before the FAQ came and said it doesn't."

I think your argument has some merit, but the FAQ clearly intended to stop warptime on Mortarion. Maybe its a loophole, maybe its not a loophole.

The units in FW allow you to use DG and TS as legion.

That however does not override the rules in the codex.

RAW Mortarian can use the stratagem to get warptime.

Also RAW as warptime comes from the codex with said legion restriction Mortarian cannot select a valid target as legion cannot be replaced with DG from things from the codex.

Just because Morty has DG keyword doesn't mean he can switch <Legion> to DG for chaos codex things. There is no permissive statement for that, and there is a restrictive statement against it in the chaos codex.

It will probably be gone when the new CSM codex drops, whenever that it. Not sure if they meant for strategems to be used cross codex. Maybe in 8th ed, but in 9th ed, they likely do not want that. The chaos familiar strategem is not in the 9th ed DG codex.

blaktoof wrote:
The units in FW allow you to use DG and TS as legion.

That however does not override the rules in the codex.

RAW Mortarian can use the stratagem to get warptime.

Also RAW as warptime comes from the codex with said legion restriction Mortarian cannot select a valid target as legion cannot be replaced with DG from things from the codex.

Just because Morty has DG keyword doesn't mean he can switch <Legion> to DG for chaos codex things. There is no permissive statement for that, and there is a restrictive statement against it in the chaos codex.

Again, that's simply not what the CSM book actually says. Both the CSM and Imperial Armor books state (the CSM book by implication, the FW book explicitly) that <Death Guard> is a <Legion>. The CSM book says you nevertheless cannot select the Death Guard <Legion> when choosing which <Legion> a CSM unit is from, but that is the only limitation in the book.

Nowhere in the CSM book - I repeat, nowhere - does it say that when you use chaos familiar to get a dark hereticus power on a DG or Tsons character that the <LEGION> tag doesn't match their legion keyword, and it affirmatively says elsewhere that you replace every instance of <Legion> with the matching faction keyword for the model. All it says is you can't choose DG or TS as your legion when choosing what legion a unit is from. You are not choosing what legion Morty is from when you give him a dark hereticus power. Hence, there is no limitation on it matching his legion, which is death guard.

The opposite reading actually leads to even more gamey results, in that Mortarion would end up with a Warptime that simply remains <Legion> - because you supposedly aren't allowed to match it to his legion keyword - which means it would work on every <legion>, and would therefore be back to being simply Heretic Astartes. But of course that's not right, because you are required by the book to match every instance of <Legion> to the legion keyword the unit has. Mortarion has the DEATH GUARD <Legion>, therefore when he takes a dark hereticus spell, it comes DEATH GUARD linked.

RAW There is no rule saying that psychic powers or wargear with <legion> keyword get replaced with the units keyword. In fact the rule specifically only states it gets replaced on its unit datasheet. Which is not in line within your statement about it affirmatively says elsewhere that you replace every instance of <Legion> with the matching faction keyword for the model - which it clearly does not say anywhere.

"If a Heretic Astartes datasheet
does not specify which Legion it is from, it
will have the <LEGION> keyword. When you
include such a unit in your army, you must
nominate which Legion that unit is from. You
then simply replace the <LEGION> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Legion."

RAW there is no permission to replace the <legion> keyword for warptime, as it is not on the units datasheet.

Further if we want to add sanity and say it should follow the rules for replacing the units datasheet <legion> entry then mortarion would run into the RAW issue of

"The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and
Fallen deviate significantly in terms of
organisation and fighting styles. As a result,
you cannot choose one of these keywords
when determining which Legion a unit in this
codex is from."

If we are going to say that being able to chose an units datasheet legion name confers to chosing non datasheet things legion names, then likely we would have to extend that rule as well which would again bar Morty (or Magnus) from naming <legion> as death guard for a psychic power from the heretic astartes codex.

Prove morty ever had a "legion". If not you cannot satisfy the wartime requirement

blaktoof wrote:


RAW There is no rule saying that psychic powers or wargear with <legion> keyword get replaced with the units keyword. In fact the rule specifically only states it gets replaced on its unit datasheet. Which is not in line within your statement about it affirmatively says elsewhere that you replace every instance of <Legion> with the matching faction keyword for the model - which it clearly does not say anywhere.

"If a Heretic Astartes datasheet
does not specify which Legion it is from, it
will have the <LEGION> keyword. When you
include such a unit in your army, you must
nominate which Legion that unit is from. You
then simply replace the <LEGION> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Legion."

RAW there is no permission to replace the <legion> keyword for warptime, as it is not on the units datasheet.

That's not correct. The psychic power you select becomes part of the unit's datasheet, just like any relic or wargear you select becomes part of the unit's datasheet. If it didn't, this wouldn't only be a problem for Morty, it would be a problem for every single model taking Dark Hereticus, so that reasoning gets you nowhere. You then depart from RAW completely when you start talking about randomly applying the rule re: not selecting Death Guard to this situation, when the whole point is that is not what the rule actually says. When you start talking about "sanity" or "common sense" that is a great clue that you are not talking about RAW any more.

The only limitation on replacing <Legion> with DEATH GUARD or THOUSAND SONS is that you can't select those Legions when choosing which Legion a CSM unit is from. Matching the keyword on a psychic power to a unit's LEGION is not choosing which Legion the unit is from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Prove morty ever had a "legion". If not you cannot satisfy the wartime requirement

Already did, please read the thread for quotes. Both the CSM and Imperial Armor books confirm that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> . The CSM book says you cannot choose it as your legion for a CSM codex book unit; if it wasn't a legion, there would be no reason to say that, just like there is no reason for the book to say that ULTHWE or ULTRAMARINES are not legions. Imperial Armor - a 9th edition source, to the extent that matters - affirmatively states that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> .

So you can prove that "death guard" , in the DG book, was a replacement for the "legion" keyword?

You haven't yet.

Again, I already have. Imperial Armor affirmatively states that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, and that by choosing DEATH GUARD as your <LEGION> choice to FW models, it gives them the same keywords as anyone in the DG Codex and allows them to benefit for those rules. Hence, DEATH GUARD as a <LEGION> choice is exactly the same as DEATH GUARD in the DG codex. There is no possible way to argue otherwise. The whole point of the Imperial Armor FAQ is to make clear that DEATH GUARD is a valid <LEGION> choice and is exactly equivalent to having the DEATH GUARD keyword from the DG codex.

If you missed the text earlier:

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.

Death Guard is a <LEGION>. There is no doubt on this point.

There is no way to argue that although DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> in Imperial Armor, the identical DEATH GUARD keyword on DG Codex units is somehow not a <LEGION>. The whole point of a keyword is that it is identical in all circumstances. It can't be the case that DEATH GUARD sometimes is a <LEGION> and sometimes isn't.

Oh bugger.

So, a TS Sorcerer now can't warptime Morty due to the FAQ.

However, the debate now is whether or not Morty can use the Chaos Familiar Stratagem to cast Warptime himself? (Provided your army has a separate CSM detachment to unlock that startagem).

Right?

Yes. And he technically can (as long as you have that CSM detachment), though I think we all agree it isn't intended, and I think it'd take major "that guy" chutzpah to try it when it's so clear that the whole point of the FAQ change they made was to try to stop Morty getting warptimed.

The complete FAQ entry in question from the Imperial Armour Compendium FAQ v1.1

Page 115 – Chaos Space Marine Datasheets

Add the following:
‘Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either Death Guard or Thousand Sons. You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:

• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies, and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.

You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons Legion. If you do:

• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also gains the <Great Cult> keyword.'

The complete FAQ entry makes it clear that it only applies to Chaso Space Marine units found in that section of the Imperial Armour Compendium and therefore would have no effect on the wording in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Agreed, no warptime for morty.

 Ghaz wrote:
The complete FAQ entry in question from the Imperial Armour Compendium FAQ v1.1

Page 115 – Chaos Space Marine Datasheets

Add the following:
‘Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either Death Guard or Thousand Sons. You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:

• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies, and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.

You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons Legion. If you do:

• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also gains the <Great Cult> keyword.'

The complete FAQ entry makes it clear that it only applies to Chaso Space Marine units found in that section of the Imperial Armour Compendium and therefore would have no effect on the wording in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Of course it doesn't have any effect on the wording in Codex: CSM. But the point is that despite you repeatedly saying otherwise, nothing in that wording says anything about being unable to match the <LEGION> in a psychic power to the <LEGION> keyword on the unit. All it says is you can't choose to make a CSM unit DEATH GUARD. That's a completely different issue from whether when Morty takes a psychic power it matches his legion or not. The point of the Imperial Armor FAQ is to show that DEATH GUARD absolutely is a <LEGION>. Therefore, the only reason that Morty's warptime wouldn't become DEATH GUARD is if anything specifically prohibits it from doing so...and nothing does. You aren't choosing to make Morty DEATH GUARD, and Morty isn't a unit in the CSM: Codex. Hence the prohibition on choosing DEATH GUARD as your <LEGION> for a unit in the CSM codex is completely inapplicable.

When you generate a psychic power, you don't get to choose what <LEGION> keyword it has - it's not like you can have an Iron Warriors psyker with Black Legion keyed powers. There's no choice, it automatically matches whatever <LEGION> that unit has. And Morty isn't in the CSM book either. It fails both requirements for the prohibition to apply.

The sole question is: Is Morty's DEATH GUARD keyword a <LEGION>? And Imperial Armor says that yes, DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> keyword. Not one you can give to CSM codex units, but definitely a <LEGION>.

So then what do you call this?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Again, I already have. Imperial Armor affirmatively states that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, and that by choosing DEATH GUARD as your <LEGION> choice to FW models, it gives them the same keywords as anyone in the DG Codex and allows them to benefit for those rules. Hence, DEATH GUARD as a <LEGION> choice is exactly the same as DEATH GUARD in the DG codex. There is no possible way to argue otherwise. The whole point of the Imperial Armor FAQ is to make clear that DEATH GUARD is a valid <LEGION> choice and is exactly equivalent to having the DEATH GUARD keyword from the DG codex.

If you missed the text earlier:

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.

Death Guard is a <LEGION>. There is no doubt on this point.

There is no way to argue that although DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> in Imperial Armor, the identical DEATH GUARD keyword on DG Codex units is somehow not a <LEGION>. The whole point of a keyword is that it is identical in all circumstances. It can't be the case that DEATH GUARD sometimes is a <LEGION> and sometimes isn't.

I'm done

Yuki- you're making a fallacies argument

You're assuming that because CSM units have a legion replaceable keyword, that this means, definitively, death guard ever did
Except you cannot prove so. There is no legion word anywhere in their data sheets

Just because you can end up with two the same doesn't mean they're actually the same. See codex daemons vs keyword daemons.

No, that's the fallacy. DAEMONS can be both a faction keyword and a unit keyword, depending; those are two different things. It has the same name, but a different function.

DEATH GUARD as your faction keyword is DEATH GUARD as your faction keyword. It is not possible that DEATH GUARD as a faction keyword is a <LEGION> for some units (e.g. Contemptor) but not a <LEGION> for other units (e.g. Morty). That's literally the opposite of what a keyword is.

Even supposing you were right, that would lead to the absurd result that Morty gets a Warptime which is <LEGION> locked - not any particular <LEGION>, just <LEGION>. Which again, is literally not possible within GW's system. You can never have an unlocked <LEGION>, just like you can never have an unspecified <CHAPTER>.

The effect of that would presumably be that Morty gets a warptime that works on any <LEGION>. So he could warptime alpha legion, black legion, etc. And DEATH GUARD Contemptors - lol! But not, according to you, himself. That can't possibly be right.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Even supposing you were right, that would lead to the absurd result that Morty gets a Warptime which is <LEGION> locked - not any particular <LEGION>, just <LEGION>. Which again, is literally not possible within GW's system. You can never have an unlocked <LEGION>, just like you can never have an unspecified <CHAPTER>.

The effect of that would presumably be that Morty gets a warptime that works on any <LEGION>. So he could warptime alpha legion, black legion, etc. And DEATH GUARD Contemptors - lol! But not, according to you, himself. That can't possibly be right.

You are confidently wrong. Neither Thousand Sons nor Death Guard use <Legion> Death Guardor nor <Legion> Thousand Sons (I finally looked), that's really the nuts of it. No soup for you.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. That the DG and TS Codexes don't mention that DEATH GUARD and THOUSAND SONS are replaced <LEGION> keywords? Of course they don't. Just like the unit entry for Abaddon doesn't say <LEGION> AND BLACK LEGION, it just says BLACK LEGION. Guilliman doesn't say <CHAPTER>, ULTRAMARINES, he just says ULTRAMARINES.

Imperial Armor makes 100% clear that DEATH GUARD is a faction keyword that replaces <LEGION>. This is inarguable. It literally says so:

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.

Could not be more black and white that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> replacement. It's just not one you can choose for Codex: CSM units. Is Mortarion a Codex: CSM unit? Do you choose his <LEGION>? The answer to both questions is not debatable, he is not, and you do not. Hence the only limitation on replacing <LEGION> with DEATH GUARD does not apply.

The IA ruling only gives permission for selecting units in IA with <legion> and Nurgle to be deathguard. It has nothing to do with the CSM codex and doesn't change or modify the ruling within that book.

Is warptime an unit entry in IA? If the answer is no, then the IA ruling has no bearing on it.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Imperial Armor makes 100% clear that DEATH GUARD is a faction keyword that replaces <LEGION>. This is inarguable. It literally says so:

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.

Its also inarguable that this is only true for units from the imperial armour compendium, because it literally says so. Is morty from the imperial armour compendium ? No, he isnt. Does the codex death guard have a rule to replace <legion> with death guard ? No, it doesnt. This replace <legion> rule is only true for codex csm units.

So you are saying that a DEATH GUARD Contemptor Dread is a <LEGION> unit, but a DEATH GUARD MORTARION is not? So we actually have two DEATH GUARD faction keywords that mean different things and have different rules impacts?

Can you cite any rules support for the idea that you can have two different faction keywords that have exactly the same name, and yet that have different rules impacts?

And what is your solution? What happens when Mortarion swaps in Warptime in your mind? What is the rules text of the Warptime he ends up with? Please be specific.

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from.

Highlighted the important part of that restriction. It only applies to units from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, has nothing to do with how Chaos Familiar is applied.

As for the argument about replacing <LEGION> with Death Guard, Mortarion qualifies as a valid target for Chaos Familiar, possessing each of the requisite keywords.

Designer Notes from 8th were clear Stratagems apply to any unit that fulfills the keyword requirements, they're not tied to specific sub-factions unless specifically stated. Haven't read anything that changes how Stratagems are applied, and 40k has a permissive ruleset.

So, if DEATH GUARD is not a Legion, what does replace <LEGION>? The restriction cited above suggests Death Guard is a Legion, Imperial Armor uses Death Guard as a replacement for <LEGION>, why is this example any different?

yukishiro1 wrote:
So you are saying that a DEATH GUARD Contemptor Dread is a <LEGION> unit, but a DEATH GUARD MORTARION is not? So we actually have two DEATH GUARD faction keywords that mean different things and have different rules impacts?

Yes. Because thats what the rules are saying. Its a mess, as usual with GW and FW.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Can you cite any rules support for the idea that you can have two different faction keywords that have exactly the same name, and yet that have different rules impacts?

You already did that with the replace rule from the imperial armour compendium. That rule only applies to imperial armour compendium units.

yukishiro1 wrote:

And what is your solution? What happens when Mortarion swaps in Warptime in your mind? What is the rules text of the Warptime he ends up with? Please be specific.

I already said what happens. You can swap a psychic power with chaos familiar, but morty cannot use warptime, because he has no permission to replace <legion> with death guard. That permission needs to come from the death guard codex.

Oh good Lord not this again. BCB tried claiming KHORNE and KHORNE weren’t the same once upon a time. DEATH GUARD and DEATH GUARD are the same, people. Let’s not be daft about this. You get to the keyword a different way because even though GW proper are writing FW rules now they have zero effort or quality control. But they’re the exact same words and there is no way for the same words to mean something different. If you’re using FW units you need to be a little open to leeway and discussion anyway, but pretending a word is a different word is… a choice. Not one I’d make.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh good Lord not this again. BCB tried claiming KHORNE and KHORNE weren’t the same once upon a time. DEATH GUARD and DEATH GUARD are the same, people. Let’s not be daft about this. You get to the keyword a different way because even though GW proper are writing FW rules now they have zero effort or quality control. But they’re the exact same words and there is no way for the same words to mean something different. If you’re using FW units you need to be a little open to leeway and discussion anyway, but pretending a word is a different word is… a choice. Not one I’d make.

What are you talking about ? No one said DEATH GUARD isnt DEATH GUARD.

You literally said that in the post I responded to.

What I meant is that DEATH GUARD is not the same as <Legion>. Morty cannot replace it with DEATH GUARD, because there is no permission from the DEATH GUARD codex to do so.

 p5freak wrote:
What I meant is that DEATH GUARD is not the same as <Legion>. Morty cannot replace it with DEATH GUARD, because there is no permission from the DEATH GUARD codex to do so.

But there is permission to do so from page 3 of the core rules under Keywords. It allows you to replace <LEGION> with a Legion, with units from Chaos Space Marines being forbidden from replacing with Death Guard or Thousand Sons. Since Morty is not from that codex, there is no problem replacing <LEGION> in Warp Time with his legion keyword of Death Guard.

And yes, GW never states in a rules context that Death Guard is a legion. If you can't figure that out, there is no hope for you using GWs rules

IA specifically does say that DEATH GUARD is a Legion. And not only for the IA book, it just says it's a Legion, period. Then it gives you rules for how to use it as a <LEGION> for IA units, while noting that you cannot swap it in for Codex: CSM units. That's why p5 is stuck making this bizarre argument that DEATH GUARD sometimes is a <LEGION> and sometimes isn't a <LEGION>, depending on the unit, meaning that the DEATH GUARD keyword has different rules impacts depending on the unit it is on, even though it's the exact same keyword. He can't say that DEATH GUARD isn't a <LEGION> because it obviously is, he has to say that Morty's DEATH GUARD keyword is not a <LEGION> for <reasons> even though the Contemptor Dread's DEATH GUARD keyword is a <LEGION>. I think this breaks a basic rule of the game, that a keyword by its very definition always has the same meaning.

 p5freak wrote:


I already said what happens. You can swap a psychic power with chaos familiar, but morty cannot use warptime, because he has no permission to replace <legion> with death guard. That permission needs to come from the death guard codex.

That's not an answer. What do you mean by "cannot use"? Do you mean Morty cannot swap for Warptime at all? Or that he can swap for it, but he gets a version that he cannot cast on himself? If the latter, what does the text of Morty's warptime say? This is why I said "please be specific about the rules text of the version he gets." It would have saved time if you had read what I wrote and responded to it.

Warptime is not a unit, therefore the prohibition against replacing <LEGION> with DEATH GUARD does not apply.

DEATH GUARD is considered to be a LEGION in the Chaos Space Marines codex, and this is further supported by the Forgeworld rules.

I see no reason why Mortarion couldn't cast Warptime on himself.

Yep. The bit in the CSM Codex saying you can't give DEATH GUARD to CSM Codex Units as a <LEGION> only makes sense if it is a <LEGION>, otherwise it would be like saying you can't choose TALLARN as your Space Marines chapter keyword. IA just confirms this by making explicit that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>.

Correct me if I'm wrong about the following:

1) Warptime is from the CSM codex,

2) The CSM codex says that you can not use <Death Guard> to replace <Legion> ,

3) The fact that the stratagem is from the CSM codex means that you must use the rules from the CSM codex.

Therefore: Regardless of the fact that Morty is not in the CSM codex the strategy that he is using does come from that codex. As such he can not substitute <Death Guard> for <Legion>.

You're wrong because the codex forbids you from replacing <LEGION> with Death Guard or Thousand Sons for units in the codex.

When it comes to abilities on a unit's datasheet, including Psychic Powers selected by that unit, all instances of <LEGION> are automatically replaced by the unit's Legion. Thus the <LEGION> of Warptime is always the legion of the unit. Since Morty is Death Guard, his <LEGION> abilities are also Death Guard.

From page 162 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines:

CHAOS SPACE MARINE UNITS
In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Chaos Space Marine units’. This is shorthand for any unit that has one of the following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS. A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords.

Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes.

The Dark Hereticus Discipline is found in this section of the codex.

Per the latest FAQ you must pick a <legion> keyword to use warp time. The CSM codex says specifically which key words can replace <legion>, Death Guard is not amongst those words. So, even if Morty has warp time he can not use it on anything with the keyword <Death Guard> since that is not an allowed substitution.

While Death Guard is a heretic legion GW has seen fit to remove it from the <Legion> key word much like it separated Daemon from Chaos Daemon for purposes of strategems. It may not be logical but that's what they seem to want.

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 162 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines:

CHAOS SPACE MARINE UNITS
In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Chaos Space Marine units’. This is shorthand for any unit that has one of the following Faction keywords: <LEGION>, BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS , ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS. A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords.

Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes.

The Dark Hereticus Discipline is found in this section of the codex.

After researching and reading the posts in this thread, I was about to post the rules, and Ghaz beat me to it.

Pertinent points:

1) They say "In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Chaos Space Marine units’."

2) Death Guard "cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section"

3) The Dark Hereticus Discipline is in that section

Therefore given the rules posted, Death Guard can not use The Dark Hereticus Discipline.

That's specifically contradicted by the FAQs on this very topic, which make clear that you can use CSM stratagems on DEATH GUARD and THOUSAND SONS units as long as you take a CSM detachment. That is what allows Mortarion to get Warp Time - the stratagem is what gives him access, and he has access to the stratagem per the FAQ.

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For
example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of
Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha
Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single
Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you
have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on
any permitted target: they do not need to be from
that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion
Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine
Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any
Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists
from the Death Guard Detachment.

edit: Oh, interesting, that FAQ was actually in the old DG book, which technically doesn't exist any more, which makes for an interesting theoretical question about whether it still applies. On the one hand, the book it was a FAQ to is gone. On the other hand, it's clearly a clarification of the general rules for using stratagems across factions, not for anything specific to that old DG book. I would say you can still use CSM strats for DG or Tsons if the units are eligible and the strats are unlocked, because the FAQ answer is not a change in the rules but merely a clarification, but I can see someone also arguing the removal of this FAQ means that now you can't use any CSM strats at all on DG and Thousand Sons, based on the "DG and Thousand sons can't use these abilities" language. If you take the position that that FAQ was the only reason you could do this, the fact that that FAQ is now gone could be a reason to say that Morty can't use chaos familiar in the first place.

But again...if that were true, the change GW just made in restricting warp time to <LEGION> wasn't even needed to stop Morty from using Warptime, which was obviously the reason they made the change. So it seems very unconvincing to say "Morty couldn't use that strat to get warp time in the first place" when GW clearly thought he could.

For the sake of argument let's say Morty can take the stratagem. The new CSM FAQ clearly states that to use it the target must be a <legion> unit. The CSM book itself defines just what a <legion> unit is. <Death Guard> is not one of those key words that can be used with <legion>. So, even if Morty had access to the spell he can't use it on <Death Guard> units.

As an aside your FAQ even says that it must be a legal target for you to use a CSM strat on another unit. Since Warp time is now only targetable on <Legion> units and <Death Guard> is not a legal choice it still can't be used on them.

No, we've been over that already several times . The CSM Codex does not say that DEATH GUARD isn't a <LEGION>, it says that you cannot choose DEATH GUARD as a <LEGION> for a Codex: CSM unit. Mortarion is not a Codex: CSM Unit, nor are you choosing to give him DEATH GUARD. Warptime is not a Chaos Space Marines unit, it's a psychic power. No matter how you parse it, that limitation does not apply. Instead, you apply the general rule, which is that you always replace the <Thing> with the faction keyword the unit has.

If Morty can use the strat, he gets it with the DEATHGUARD keyword on it.

He cannot use anything in dark heretics. It's not even the strat needing to work, you're ignoring, again, that he cannot make use, ever, of the abilities in that section, which includes the entire dark heretics discipline.

He cannot, ever, be given warp time.

The strat authorizes him to use Dark Hereticus, if he can use the strat. It would be nonsensical to say he can use the strat that allows him to get a Dark Hereticus power, but he can't actually get a Dark Hereticus power that the strat specifically allows him to get. That doesn't make any sense - either the strat empowers him to access it when he otherwise couldn't, or it doesn't.

The strat was written before the FAQ changed everything. So, if you're going to force a choice... It's not really that hard of a decision, Morty can't use the strat because the FAQ is the more recent publication.

The FAQ adding <LEGION> says nothing at all about whether he can use the strat; it doesn't add <LEGION> to the requirements to use the strat. I don't see how that has any bearing one way or the other.

 alextroy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
What I meant is that DEATH GUARD is not the same as <Legion>. Morty cannot replace it with DEATH GUARD, because there is no permission from the DEATH GUARD codex to do so.

But there is permission to do so from page 3 of the core rules under Keywords. It allows you to replace <LEGION> with a Legion, with units from Chaos Space Marines being forbidden from replacing with Death Guard or Thousand Sons. Since Morty is not from that codex, there is no problem replacing <LEGION> in Warp Time with his legion keyword of Death Guard.

And yes, GW never states in a rules context that Death Guard is a legion. If you can't figure that out, there is no hope for you using GWs rules

No, there is no permission from pg. 3.

KEYWORDS
All datasheets have a list of keywords, separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. In either case, keywords appear in KEYWORD BOLD in the rules. Keywords are sometimes linked to (or ‘tagged’ by) a rule. For example, a rule might say that it applies to ‘INFANTRY units’. This means it only applies to units that have the INFANTRY keyword on their datasheet. The pluralisation (or not) of keywords does not affect which units the rule in question applies to.

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular brackets, such as <CHAPTER>, <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS>. This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets, then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit using that rule.

<LEGION> is a keyword you can select yourself, when a unit is added to your army, before the battle or during. Before the battle morty has no <LEGION>, and morty isnt added during the battle. So you cannot select <LEGION> to be DEATH GUARD. Furthermore, there is nothing in the DG codex saying anything about this selection. Furthermore the CSM codex says you cannot choose DEATH GUARD as one of these keywords determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from, as written in the CSM codex on pg. 118. Furthermore, morty isnt from the CSM codex, no permission to select DEATH GUARD for <LEGION>.

SLAVES TO DARKNESS

This section contains all of the datasheets that you will need in order to fight battles with your Chaos Space Marine miniatures. Each datasheet includes the characteristics profiles of the unit it describes, as well as any wargear and abilities it may have. Some rules are common to several Chaos Space Marine units – these are described below and referenced on the datasheets.

KEYWORDS

Throughout this section you will come across keywords that are within angular brackets, specifically <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS>. These are shorthand for a keyword of your own choosing, as described below.

<LEGION>

Chaos Space Marines belong to a Legion or Renegade Chapter. For simplicity we will refer to all of these as Legions, even though in truth Renegade Chapters have a different genesis.

Some datasheets specify what Legion the unit is from (e.g. Abaddon the Despoiler has the BLACK LEGION keyword, so is from the Black Legion). If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Legion it is from, it will have the <LEGION> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Legion that unit is from. You then simply replace the <LEGION> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Legion.

For example, if you were to include a Chaos Lord in your army, and you decided he was from the Alpha Legion, his <LEGION> Faction keyword is changed to ALPHA LEGION and his Lord of Chaos ability would then read: ‘You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly ALPHA LEGION units within 6" of this model.’

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from. The rules and abilities for the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions are detailed in their own codexes, and both of the datasheets that describe the forces of the Fallen can be found later in this book.

Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>. For it not to be, we have to accept your argument that sometimes DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> (for e.g. Contemptors) and sometimes it isn't a <LEGION> (for DG codex units), which violates the basic rules of the game re: the same keyword not meaning the same thing from a rules point of view.

DEATH GUARD can't sometimes be a <LEGION> and sometimes not be. The whole point of a keyword is that it has the same rules impact no matter where you see it. It literally isn't a keyword if it sometimes means one thing and sometimes means a different thing.

Yes, Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>. But you cannot select DEATH GUARD to be <LEGION>. The CSM codex says you cannot do so. And the DG codex doesnt give you permission.

You literally just wrote:

Before the battle morty has no <LEGION>, and morty isnt added during the battle.

Assuming this means you've done a 180 and now agree that was wrong, if Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, then any psychic power he takes necessarily matches it. That's just how the game works. And nothing in the CSM book prevents it. The CSM book says you can't select DEATH GUARD on a CSM Codex unit. Morty isn't a CSM codex unit, he's a DG codex unit. Warptime isn't a CSM codex unit, it's a psychic power. And you're not selecting anything, it's automatically matched. You don't get the choice to take Alpha Legion or Black Legion or whatever, it matches your keyword. That's how psychic powers work.

If he's able to use the start, he gets a warptime with DEATH GUARD on it.

yukishiro1 wrote:
You literally just wrote:

Before the battle morty has no <LEGION>, and morty isnt added during the battle.

Assuming this means you've done a 180 and now agree that was wrong, if Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, then any psychic power he takes necessarily matches it. That's just how the game works. And nothing in the CSM book prevents it. The CSM book says you can't select DEATH GUARD on a CSM Codex unit. Morty isn't a CSM codex unit, he's a DG codex unit. Warptime isn't a CSM codex unit, it's a psychic power. And you're not selecting anything, it's automatically matched. You don't get the choice to take Alpha Legion or Black Legion or whatever, it matches your keyword. That's how psychic powers work.

If he's able to use the start, he gets a warptime with DEATH GUARD on it.

According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.

Mortarion gets warptime because yukishiro1 What's the point Yuki? No one is changing their mind on this topic online. Do you think a tournament might accept this logic and let you play Morty this way? Or do you typically play netlists in pickup games?


I can give you a real life example of how this type of logic does not work.

I sign up for Xoom/paypal, because I want to pay my employee who is in India. I clearly understand that they are expecting a personal account with a personal bank account. But they have nothing that excludes me from doing this. They do ask me to prove that I'm the owner of my bank account, they ask for drivers license and bank statement.

So I go the extra mile. I show them that my bank statement is my business name, that my business is registered properly and that it states that I'm the owner, and.... I give my drivers license to prove who I am. link --> link --> link --> link -->

I get told no. They want drivers license and bank statement. Not the entire string of BS that proves that I'm right. End result, I have to use a different service.

Morty doesn't have the right keyword format to get warptime to be compatible with deathguard mostly because you can't find that legion properly listed in the CSM codex. And pulling the IA compendium, for a different specific use case to shoehorn into this one is just not going to work.

I too agree that the FAQ (for once) in very clear. The strat can be used with a single CSM detachment, but Mortarion can't use it because DEATH GUARD can never be changed where a <LEGION> placeholder is.

As usual, GW should use a formal notation for their rules rather than the total idiocy of bespoke rules we have.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The strat authorizes him to use Dark Hereticus, if he can use the strat. It would be nonsensical to say he can use the strat that allows him to get a Dark Hereticus power, but he can't actually get a Dark Hereticus power that the strat specifically allows him to get. That doesn't make any sense - either the strat empowers him to access it when he otherwise couldn't, or it doesn't.

He is explicitly forbidden
Show the explicit allowance to override the rest4iction. Page and para

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:


According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.

Did you actually read that rule? It literally says the opposite:

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular
brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>.
This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with
certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains
that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at
the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the
battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets,
then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit
using that rule.

You only select if it's on the datasheet of the unit. Anywhere else, it automatically matches the keyword on the datasheet.

And the very example they show is exactly this:

Nick adds a Space Marine Librarian to his army.
This unit has the <Chapter> keyword on its datasheet, which
Nick selects to be Ultramarines. If the Librarian attempts to
manifest a psychic power that also uses the <Chapter> keyword,
then when reading that rule, Nick would replace that keyword in
every instance with Ultramarines.

This literally proves that Morty gets a DEATH GUARD keyed warptime if he can use the strat, based on your admission that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cybtroll wrote:
I too agree that the FAQ (for once) in very clear. The strat can be used with a single CSM detachment, but Mortarion can't use it because DEATH GUARD can never be changed where a <LEGION> placeholder is.

It would be very clear if it said that, but it doesn't say that at all, anywhere. It says you can't choose DEATH GUARD as your <LEGION> for CSM:Codex units. Mortation is not a CSM: Codex unit, nor are you choosing his <LEGION>.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:


According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.

Did you actually read that rule? It literally says the opposite:

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular
brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>.
This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with
certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains
that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at
the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the
battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets,
then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit
using that rule.

You only select if it's on the datasheet of the unit. Anywhere else, it automatically matches the keyword on the datasheet.

Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.

 p5freak wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.

Did you actually read that rule? It literally says the opposite:

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular
brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>.
This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with
certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains
that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at
the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the
battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets,
then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit
using that rule.

You only select if it's on the datasheet of the unit. Anywhere else, it automatically matches the keyword on the datasheet.

Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.

Death Guard can certainly be a keyword. It's not a unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

 p5freak wrote:


Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.

You only need to select a keyword if it isn't pre-selected. Mortarion's <LEGION> is pre-selected to be DEATH GUARD. Therefore, any further instances of the rule with <LEGION> match it, just like when you take Huron Blackheart, his psychic powers match his preselected <LEGION> keyword.

Are you actually trying to claim that <LEGION> only automatically matches the keyword if the datasheet doesn't have a <LEGION> preselected? So Huron Blackheart could select ALPHA LEGION for his Warptime if he wanted to, even though his <LEGION> is preselected as Red Corsairs?

yukishiro1 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.

You only need to select a keyword if it isn't pre-selected. Mortarion's <LEGION> is pre-selected to be DEATH GUARD. Therefore, any further instances of the rule with <LEGION> match it, just like when you take Huron Blackheart, his psychic powers match his preselected <LEGION> keyword.

Are you actually trying to claim that <LEGION> only automatically matches the keyword if the datasheet doesn't have a <LEGION> preselected? So Huron Blackheart could select ALPHA LEGION for his Warptime if he wanted to, even though his <LEGION> is preselected as Red Corsairs?

For that matter, <LEGION> could be anything.

If I want to run a Legion named Herman's Heretics, that would substitute for <LEGION>.

AFAIK Death Guard is not restricted from being used the same way.

Yuki - prove that having the power allows him to use the ability. Page and graph thatniverrides the explicit restriction on using the ability.

What explicit restriction? You can't debate this way, you need to be clear when you make assertions, not try to make people read your mind. If you are asserting there is an explicit restriction, you need to quote it. How could I possibly address your post when you don't make clear what you're even referring to?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yuki - prove that having the power allows him to use the ability. Page and graph thatniverrides the explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no list of what can / can't replace <LEGION>. Show us the page / graph that says Death Guard cannot replace <LEGION>.

Everything up until now has been references to limitations on units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it doesn't apply to Mortarion.

 techsoldaten wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yuki - prove that having the power allows him to use the ability. Page and graph thatniverrides the explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no list of what can / can't replace <LEGION>. Show us the page / graph that says Death Guard cannot replace <LEGION>.

Everything up until now has been references to limitations on units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it doesn't apply to Mortarion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/798462.page#11146130

Yeah, you need to read that again. Nothing in there says that Mortarion can't use Warptime. It says that you can't choose to give DEATH GUARD to a Codex: CSM unit. Mortarion isn't a Codex: CSM unit, and you aren't choosing to give him DEATH GUARD. Matching <LEGION>< to Mortarion's <LEGION> keyword of DEATH GUARD is not choosing to make a Codex: CSM unit DEATH GUARD. A psychic power is not a unit, and you don't get to choose a psychic power's <LEGION>, it is automatically matched to the keyword on the unit taking the power.

We've been over this at least five times now.

"Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes."

Wrong. Death guard cannot USE any ability from that section. DH Discipline is in that section.

Marty cannot use warp time. He is explicitly forbidden

If you claim he can use it, prove it. Page and graph. Third time.

That's the argument on whether he can use the strat. If he can use the strat, the strat gives him explicit permission to select a Dark Hereticus power. It can't be the case that he can use the strat and get a Dark Hereticus power with DEATH GUARD on it, but not actually use it. If he's allowed to use the strat to get the power, that also allows him to use the power. Are you seriously trying to say that he can get the power using the stratagem, but then not actually cast it?

I already quoted to you the FAQ that makes clear that you can use the strats in the CSM book on DG units, assuming you have unlocked them with a CSM detachment, despite the language you quoted:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For
example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of
Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha
Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single
Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you
have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on
any permitted target: they do not need to be from
that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion
Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine
Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any
Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists
from the Death Guard Detachment.

That FAQ technically no longer exists, because it was a FAQ to the old DG book, but it was a general answer, not anything specific to the old DG book - it applied to TS too, for example. So the question is whether that FAQ is still in effect or not.

Hence why the argument has solidified around "if he can use the strat." That's the question.

So, he can't use the strat. He can't use ANY DH power, as he is explicitly forbidden from doing so. So no, it's not evolved. You're ignoring that he can never, ever use the power.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For
example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of
Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha
Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single
Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you
have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on
any permitted target: they do not need to be from
that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion
Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine
Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any
Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists
from the Death Guard Detachment.

emphasis added by me.

That FAQ technically no longer exists, because it was a FAQ to the old DG book, but it was a general answer, not anything specific to the old DG book - it applied to TS too, for example. So the question is whether that FAQ is still in effect or not.

Morty is not a permitted target because Death Guard are not permitted to use DH rules and AFAIK Morty doesn't have any other key word to qualify under the CSM guidelines. So even using your, admitted, out of date FAQ you still can't give Morty warp time.

That doesn't make sense. Morty does qualify to use the strat - all the strat requires is HERETIC ASTARTES PSYKER, which he has. You can't seriously be saying that he can use the strat that specifically authorizes the target to swap in a Dark Hereticus, but that he cannot actually then swap in the Dark Hereticus power? If the ruling in the FAQ that you don't need to be a CSM: Codex unit to use a CSM: Codex stratagem as long as you have a CSM: Codex detachment to unlock the strats in the first place, Morty can use the strat, and he gets a Warptime that is DEATH GUARD coded. If he can't use the strat because you take the position that the ruling in the FAQ no longer exists, then he obviously can't. This is 100% what it comes down to: can he use the strat, or can he not use the strat?

But I'm glad we've all finally come around to the position that the change to warptime to be <LEGION> locked has no impact on the question of whether he can swap in and use warptime himself.

The rule that allows you to change warptime legion name is a general rule on the core rulebook. The csm codex had 2 specific restrictions that modify that rule.

1. That you cannot select units to be death guard or thousand sons.

2. That DG and T. Sons can not make use of any rules in various sections.

As these are more specific rules in a codex they override page 3 of the rulebook in these instances and Mortarian cannot switch Legion to death guard for warptime.

Much like if a codex had a rule that let them charge after advancing would override the core rules and they would follow that.

1. Is irrelevant, we've exhausted that discussion. Warptime isn't a unit. Mortarion isn't a CSM: Codex Unit. You aren't selecting Mortartion's <LEGION> it's preselected.

2. Is the issue. Can you still use CSM strats on DG units per the FAQ in the old DG book? That FAQ clearly stated that you could do so, despite the language about DG not being able to use the abilities listed in that section, making clear the limitation was only if you didn't have a CSM detachment to unlock access in the first place. If that is still possible, he can use the strat, and if he can use the strat, he can also surely use the psychic power the strat authorizes him to get.

That's why it comes down to whether he can use the strat or not. The presence or absence of <LEGION> is irrelevant because DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, the question is whether he is allowed to use the strat to access the power or not.

If you have two rules, one that says “Can do [ACTION]” and one that says “Cannot do [ACTION]” there is a way to follow both rules.

Actually, Death Guard is a Legion not a <Legion>. There is a difference between fluff and crunch. Fluffwise Death Guard are a Legion Hereticus (sp?). Per the rules of the game Death Guard are not considered a <Legion>. Does it break immersion and logical consideration? Probably but, in a game some things are not the same as in its source literature. In this instance the game designers have seen fit to alter the reality of Warhammer 40K so that it deviates from the literature surrounding it. If you don't like it then house rule it but RAW Death Guard are not a <Legion>.

Please re-read the thread, we've been over this before several times.

DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> according to the rules of the game. IA says so. DEATH GUARD can't sometimes be a <LEGION> and sometimes not be a <LEGION>, that breaks the definition of what a keyword is. You can't have two versions of the same keyword with different rules impacts. RAW DEATH GUARD is absolutely a <LEGION> unless you want to break the whole keyword system.

IA said that Death Guard is a <Legion> purely for its own book. It probably made that decision so that it wouldn't need to reprint the exact same unit 3 times (1 CSM, 1DG and, 1 KSons). I would discount this use as a general rule due to this. Even with IA stating that Death Guard is a <Legion> the CSM codex says that it's not. For rules purposes the writing in one book about the contents of that same book take precedence over the writings of another book. IA can say that Death Guard all have a 1+ save and 20 wounds (and all of the Death Guard units would have that) but if the CSM codex said that a CSM trooper had a 3+ save and 1 wound that's all he would get. I believe that most people would take the stand that CSM codex rules apply to units in that book and IA rules apply to units in that book. If there was a conflict of rules consult the appropriate book for the "correct" rule to use.

I just checked IA and on page 115 under the heading The <Legion> keyword it states, "...otherwise it will have the <legion> keyword. This is a key word that you can select for yourself, following the guidance and restrictions detailed in Codex Chaos Space Marines."

Now please tell me where I can find that you can substitute Death Guard for <Legion> in the IA compendium. Otherwise your argument is a complete sham.

It's in the FAQ. It's been copied and pasted into this thread two or three times already. Please review the thread before coming back and accusing people of making sham arguments, it's such a waste of everyone's time even apart from how rude it is of you not to do your own diligence before hurling accusations at other people.

‘Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.’

You don't get to "discount" rules because you feel like it. That's not how rules work. Especially when the result is breaking the whole keyword system. DEATH GUARD can't sometimes be a <LEGION> and sometimes not be a <LEGION> depending on the unit and the book; a keyword has to mean the same thing every time or it isn't a keyword any more. This is exactly why the wording in Codex: CSM is as it is re: being unable to select DEATH GUARD as a <LEGION> for Codex: CSM units. It is carefully worded not to say that DEATH GUARD is not a <LEGION>, because it is.

But Death Guard units can’t access Dark Hereticus powers.

You don’t get to discount rules because you feel like it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But Death Guard units can’t access Dark Hereticus powers.

You don’t get to discount rules because you feel like it.

I would ask you to review the thread as well. That is what we have come down to as the issue: can Mortarion use the strat to access it, or not? If he can use the strat, the strat authorizes him to get a DH power even though he otherwise couldn't. If he can't use the strat, obviously he has no way to access it.

The FAQ in the old DG book says he can use the strat. That FAQ no longer exists because the book no longer exists. But the reasoning of the FAQ was generally applicable; it really should have been in the CSM book, not the DG book, because it is a rules question about the CSM book and it impacts CSM, DG and TSons. It also wasn't an errata, it was a FAQ, which means GW thought that's what the rules meant, without any need to change the language.

That language is still the same, suggesting there is no reason why DG and TSons can't still use CSM strats if you unlock them with a CSM detachment. And yet the FAQ that confirms that is no longer around. So what is the status of the rule?

Seems like an open question to me. Either you say the language in the CSM codex hasn't changed so you can still do it, or you say the fact that they didn't reprint the FAQ elsewhere when they replaced the old DG book with the new one means that now DG and TSons can't use CSM strats, even though the language is still exactly the same as it was before when they could. I don't know that there's a great way to resolve that question RAW, I think it's a genuine question you can make good arguments on both sides of.

But that is the question. Nothing about <LEGION>. It's about whether Morty can use the strat or not.

You keep glossing over that he cannot. He cannot. You need to find a way of specifically allowing him.
That means a rule saying despite us saying DG CANNOT MAKE USE OF the abilities, actually they can.

He cannot use, or have the strat used on, him. The faq is not relevant to 9th, it doesn't exist.
Even if you break the rules and use the strat on him, he then has an ability - a DH power - that he explicitly cannot use.

You have two hurdles to overcome, you've in 4 pages failed to even acknowledge them, let alone overcome them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and we know sometimes daemon wasn't good enough compare to another daemon. You couldn't use codex daemon strats on csm daemon units in 8th. So the idea that DG isn't a <legion> always isn't far fetched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Cannot make use of..." is pretty clear, even for GW

Morty, to swap to a DH power, is required to USE the strat. Expect he cannot

Morty, to use a DH power, is required to use a rule or ability he is forbidden from using

Two hurdles. Overcome both. Page and graph. Fourth time

yukishiro1 wrote:

I would ask you to review the thread as well. That is what we have come down to as the issue: can Mortarion use the strat to access it, or not? If he can use the strat, the strat authorizes him to get a DH power even though he otherwise couldn't. If he can't use the strat, obviously he has no way to access it.

The FAQ in the old DG book says he can use the strat. That FAQ no longer exists because the book no longer exists. But the reasoning of the FAQ was generally applicable; it really should have been in the CSM book, not the DG book, because it is a rules question about the CSM book and it impacts CSM, DG and TSons. It also wasn't an errata, it was a FAQ, which means GW thought that's what the rules meant, without any need to change the language.

That language is still the same, suggesting there is no reason why DG and TSons can't still use CSM strats if you unlock them with a CSM detachment. And yet the FAQ that confirms that is no longer around. So what is the status of the rule?

Sometimes a FAQ entry gets deleted from one version of a FAQ to the next. The wording in the codex didn't change, but the FAQ entry gets deleted. You know what the result is: That FAQ entry is no longer valid because it no longer exists, whether or not you want to argue about what the rules authors "thought" the rules meant.

It doesn't make any difference that it was a FAQ entry for Book A that referenced Book B.

Disclaimer: FAQ vs. errata is a useless distinction. Because it's the difference because what the distinction is is really:
- Is there a simple change that we're willing to send through typesetting, translation, and incorporate into future printings of this product? That's an errata.
- Is it something that potentially requires a whole paragraph to explain? That's a FAQ.
And anything in between is Editor's Choice. There's no other Hallowed Be Thy Rules Nature.

Erratas aren't fixed in future printings either these days as far as I know. It is the difference between them saying "change the wording of X to Y" via PDF or just answering a question at the end of the document. It is a relevant difference.

The point is that although the FAQ no longer exists, the language that resulted in them answering the question as they did is the same. If that language allowed using strats on DG and TSons before, which we know was the case, is there any reason to think it doesn't now? It's the exact same language it was before. Nothing has changed.

I'm not saying it necessarily does - I was the one who brought up the FAQ no longer being current, nobody else in the thread had even noticed! But I don't think the fact that the FAQ is no longer current necessarily means we should read the original rule text differently when that text itself hasn't changed. GW clearly read the prohibition on DG and TSons using strats from the CSM Codex as only applying if you didn't unlock that section of the rules using a CSM detachment, and that if you did, you could then access the strats (which in turn gives you access to a DH power). Is there any reason to assume their intent on that point has changed simply by the fact that they didn't carry over the FAQ question and answer into the new DG book? All the relevant rules text is exactly the same as it was before.

I.e. if you have a complex mathematical equation and GW tells you the answer is 47 via FAQ, and then the edition changes so the document with the answer in it is no longer current...isn't the answer still 47 in the new edition too, assuming the equation itself is still the same?

Yes, the reason to think is, they removed that answer. So you're back to the written rule which says they cannot use any ability in that section.

Fun facts SITW both worked on embarked Psyker and didn't in 5th. Literal yes to no change in the faq.



Intent changes. We don't even know they intended this specific combo to work previously. Law of unintended consequences and all that

But we know, for sure, that
- morty is explicitly forbidden from using the strat
- he is explicitly forbidden from using any DH power regardless of how he gets it.

Do you accept this? It's there to be read, and hard to argue any other way.

Well, GW itself clearly read it otherwise, since they specifically told us that language didn't stop you from using those strats on DG and TSons units as long as you unlocked them via a CSM detachment. So the way GW read it was not an absolute prohibition, simply a requirement that you unlock the rules with a CSM detachment, and that DG and TSons being unable to use them was if you didn't take a CSM detachment first.

So you are arguing that the way GW read their own rule cannot possibly be right. Does that really seem like a convincing argument?

If the strats are unlocked, the strat unlocks DH. I very much disagree with you that it could be the case that Morty could use the strat, get Warptime, and then not be allowed to cast it, or that Morty could be allowed to use the strat but then somehow prohibited from getting Warptime even though the strat specifically allows it. If the strat works, the strat authorizes the use of the DH power, in the same way that if a CSM detachment unlocks the strats, you can then use them on DG or TSons.

It all comes back to whether you can use the strat. Which comes back to how you read the text. And we know for a fact that GW read the text to allow it, the exact same text that we're now talking about and you are now claiming unambiguously does not allow it.

I gave you an example where GW literally flip flopped! It's not the only one, and has no nuance to it at all.

The rules are damned

How does the strat authorise use of the power? In no way does it do so, it relies entairely on the basic rules for powers. In no way shape or form csn that be said to even come CLOSE to overriding the specific denial of using any abilities or rules you have here.


No it does not come back t8 that. And I've proven, four times now, that you've got two hurdles and your argument passes neither. No amount of hand waving from you gets around that.

RAW you are not correct. Twice over. Go change the rules with that faq,,and then removed the faq for 9th. A whole edition ago you were right. Now? Not. Not even close.

You can't really argue RAI, Yuki, when it sure seems like the intent of changing Warptime to need a Legion was to stop Morty from using it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can't really argue RAI, Yuki, when it sure seems like the intent of changing Warptime to need a Legion was to stop Morty from using it.

I'm not arguing RAI. This isn't a place to argue RAI. I'm saying that GW told us what the RAW meaning of that text is, and what they told us was that as long as you unlock the rules using a CSM detachment, the strats can be used on DG and TSons.

The document GW used to tell us what that text means is no longer current, but the text itself still is. Do we really want to just pretend like GW never told us what that text means?

What GW told us is that "DG and TSons cannot make use of these rules" means they cannot make use the rules unless you have a CSM detachment to unlock the rules. Are we really saying that reading can't possibly be right, even though GW actually told us it is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I gave you an example where GW literally flip flopped! It's not the only one, and has no nuance to it at all.

The rules are damned

How does the strat authorise use of the power? In no way does it do so, it relies entairely on the basic rules for powers. In no way shape or form csn that be said to even come CLOSE to overriding the specific denial of using any abilities or rules you have here.


No it does not come back t8 that. And I've proven, four times now, that you've got two hurdles and your argument passes neither. No amount of hand waving from you gets around that.

RAW you are not correct. Twice over. Go change the rules with that faq,,and then removed the faq for 9th. A whole edition ago you were right. Now? Not. Not even close.

The funny thing about this is you yourself said it was legal just a month ago, when the situation was exactly the same as it is now re: what the rules text says (adding <LEGION> has no impact on this discussion we're having now, it's about the stuff at the start of the CSM rules section). What changed in your mind? Were you just totally wrong then? Honestly curious. You're presenting this as this totally obvious and inarguable thing, despite it directly contradicting what you said last time the topic came up. Literally every single person in this thread thought it was totally fine a month ago.

If you want the full inflexibility of RAW...

CSM and Deathguard Codex do not have have <Legion> Deathguard. CSM says that Death Guard are so divergent from other CSM they have their own set of rules, thus no <Legion> Deathguard in CSM Codex. Deathguard have no <Legion> formats.

You have to infer it from IA Compendium FAQ that allows a specific use case swap to allow units in IA to be fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons .And since when does GW allow a ruling on one FAQ to apply to all other FAQs? Never.

That's the inflexibility of RAW... it doesn't say yes in this case.

DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, it can't be a <LEGION> in some cases and not a <LEGION> in other cases, GW affirmatively says it is a <LEGION> in one book, and nowhere in any book anywhere does it say it isn't a <LEGION>. Codex CSM says you can't select it as a <LEGION> for Codex: CSM units, which only makes sense if it is a <LEGION> generally, otherwise it'd be like saying you can't select ULTRAMARINES as your legion. There'd be no reason to say it.

I'm not going back to the <LEGION> argument at this point more than that, everybody's moved on from that because it's an obvious loser of an argument. The question is whether he can use the strat, not whether you can replace <LEGION> if he can use the strat. If you want to continue to think Morty gets a version of Warptime that just says <LEGION> it's your right to have that opinion, that argument has been well and truly exhausted and everyone's laid out their positions.

It does not appear that this particular argument is going to be resolved here in this thread