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Post by: Us3Less
So this just sneaked in with the AoS pre-orders: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/23/sunday-preview-the-mortal-realms-quake-beneath-the-tread-of-kragnos/
"The ultimate companion to fighting Warhammer 40,000 matched play battles, Chapter Approved is back with a new Grand Tournament Mission Pack and a range-wide list of updated points values for the units and wargear of every faction in the Munitorum Field Manual. It’s an absolute no-brainer for fans of matched play – especially if you regularly attend or organise tournaments."
That came totally out of the blue for me. Will be interesting to see the points values for the Sisters and Orks, because those might reflect the points in the new codex. I'm curious to know whether it's a full on 'balance patch' or just a rehash with the latest points updates from FAQs etc. with perhaps a minor tweak or correction here and there.
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Post by: jaredb
Well, this is an automatic buy for me. I'm interested in seeing what updates the secondary objectives will be.
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Post by: Mr. Grey
That came totally out of the blue for me. Will be interesting to see the points values for the Sisters and Orks, because those might reflect the points in the new codex. I'm curious to know whether it's a full on 'balance patch' or just a rehash with the latest points updates from FAQs etc. with perhaps a minor tweak or correction here and there.
I don't know why anyone would buy this with both of those codexes right around the corner.
For me, this is nothing but another churn product, and seeing this release makes me really glad that I haven't spent any money on anything 9e so far. As a filthy casual who even in non-pandemic times plays 40K once in a blue moon, I'm done buying these kinds of updates.
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Post by: Lord Damocles
At least wait to see how horrifically borked it is before considering throwing cash at GW.
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Post by: dammit
50pt/model Aberrants, here we go
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Post by: Voss
Are these actually _new_ points, or is it just the printed form of the current download?
I seriously can't tell what they're doing anymore.
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Post by: Aenar
Mr. Grey wrote:That came totally out of the blue for me. Will be interesting to see the points values for the Sisters and Orks, because those might reflect the points in the new codex. I'm curious to know whether it's a full on 'balance patch' or just a rehash with the latest points updates from FAQs etc. with perhaps a minor tweak or correction here and there.
I don't know why anyone would buy this with both of those codexes right around the corner.
For me, this is nothing but another churn product, and seeing this release makes me really glad that I haven't spent any money on anything 9e so far. As a filthy casual who even in non-pandemic times plays 40K once in a blue moon, I'm done buying these kinds of updates.
Missions and secondaries are the reason. In tournament play (and matched play at the club done in preparation for tournaments), these are the only missions that are used.
I can leave the BRB at home as the booklet has all the core rules printed in a small format which works wonders to quickly reference rules during a game.
The points update is also nice, but you can always rely on the battlescribe update for that.
Best product they've put out in years, said from someone who usually criticizes GW to no end.
EDIT: @Voss, new points as it's the MKII version.
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Post by: bullyboy
will just wait for the online reviews and write in the other ones. Sick of spending on this crap when most people are not even playing much right now.
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Post by: Quasistellar
Definitely not buying this. I don’t need points since I have the app. I’ll read reviews about the mission pack.
Here’s hoping points cuts for several vehicles.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Can't wait to see what points values revert back to the values from the book before the one before this, 'cause GW can't into editing.
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Post by: Mr. Grey
Aenar wrote: Mr. Grey wrote:That came totally out of the blue for me. Will be interesting to see the points values for the Sisters and Orks, because those might reflect the points in the new codex. I'm curious to know whether it's a full on 'balance patch' or just a rehash with the latest points updates from FAQs etc. with perhaps a minor tweak or correction here and there.
I don't know why anyone would buy this with both of those codexes right around the corner.
For me, this is nothing but another churn product, and seeing this release makes me really glad that I haven't spent any money on anything 9e so far. As a filthy casual who even in non-pandemic times plays 40K once in a blue moon, I'm done buying these kinds of updates.
Missions and secondaries are the reason. In tournament play (and matched play at the club done in preparation for tournaments), these are the only missions that are used.
I can leave the BRB at home as the booklet has all the core rules printed in a small format which works wonders to quickly reference rules during a game.
The points update is also nice, but you can always rely on the battlescribe update for that.
Best product they've put out in years, said from someone who usually criticizes GW to no end.
EDIT: @Voss, new points as it's the MKII version.
Sounds like a hard pass from me - I don't ever play in tournaments anyway.
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Post by: Sgt. Cortez
Doesn't sound like there's anything useful in there for me. New missions for the style of play I usually try to avoid. But I guess for people like me they did the crusade mission pack, that's highly overpriced unfortunately.
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Post by: The Phazer
The first set was abysmal, so I'm really surprised they're keeping the same format.
Avoiding like the plague.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
And we are back again at GW demanding money for a balance patch...
Shame, they could've released the pts atleast free off charge...
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
I don't do Matched Play, so there's nothing here for me. Unfortunate as compared to AoS where the equivalent (General's Handbook) has loads of content for things other than Matched Play. Any tournament will include the relevant rules in their pack anyways, for that matter.
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Post by: Sarigar
The GT Missions pack has been my most utilized book for 9th edition, so this will be an auto buy.
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Post by: jaredb
This is an autobuy for me as well.
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Post by: tneva82
Mr. Grey wrote:That came totally out of the blue for me. Will be interesting to see the points values for the Sisters and Orks, because those might reflect the points in the new codex. I'm curious to know whether it's a full on 'balance patch' or just a rehash with the latest points updates from FAQs etc. with perhaps a minor tweak or correction here and there.
I don't know why anyone would buy this with both of those codexes right around the corner.
For me, this is nothing but another churn product, and seeing this release makes me really glad that I haven't spent any money on anything 9e so far. As a filthy casual who even in non-pandemic times plays 40K once in a blue moon, I'm done buying these kinds of updates.
The point values isn't what you buy. It's the scenarios that will be defacto game mode from now. Without those you are limited on opponents as assumpion will be those.
(also on bonus side this is lot easier to carry than the big brick so there's that. Also secondaries on big brick are even worse)
I have paid maybe half an euro per game from last book. That much i can afford just to not have to carry the big brick.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote:will just wait for the online reviews and write in the other ones. Sick of spending on this crap when most people are not even playing much right now.
Depends where you live. Not every country screwed up.
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Post by: Eldarsif
bullyboy wrote:will just wait for the online reviews and write in the other ones. Sick of spending on this crap when most people are not even playing much right now.
A lot of countries never had severe lockdowns and had ton of games.
I am personally very excited to see the new missions and secondaries. Also many armies need point adjustments. So an autobuy for me.
I would also add that these books are more aimed at tourney goers and competitive players so if people are more into narrative/casual gaming this book combo isn't necessary.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
New secondaries alone could shake up the game more than any points balance.
Armies like Necron aren't inherently worse than Drukhari... they're worse at playing the current missions and secondaries. Creating new secondaries that reward different approaches to battle will do a lot of good.
Some armies just have obvious picks that are functionally free points, which causes serious issues.
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
Not sure how you can design a mission or secondary that would be bad for current Drukhari though lol. They are killy, darklances are scary, and they are so mobile.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Eldenfirefly wrote:Not sure how you can design a mission or secondary that would be bad for current Drukhari though lol. They are killy, darklances are scary, and they are so mobile.
Not saying this will be the case, but they could give each faction another/more specific secondaries. To continue my Necron example, what if they had one akin to "1vp for every five models returned via reanimation protocol". It wouldn't be broken, but it would wildly more relevant than the garbage ones that they received in their book (minus Code of Combat which is OK).
The issue is, things like Oath of the Moment, or the Ravenwing one, are just giving away points for how said army already needs to play.
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Post by: tneva82
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Eldenfirefly wrote:Not sure how you can design a mission or secondary that would be bad for current Drukhari though lol. They are killy, darklances are scary, and they are so mobile.
Not saying this will be the case, but they could give each faction another/more specific secondaries. To continue my Necron example, what if they had one akin to "1vp for every five models returned via reanimation protocol". It wouldn't be broken, but it would wildly more relevant than the garbage ones that they received in their book (minus Code of Combat which is OK).
The issue is, things like Oath of the Moment, or the Ravenwing one, are just giving away points for how said army already needs to play.
GT pack won't likely be including any faction specific ones. Were those on cards last one would have had. These will be generic ones.
Nor is this going to be errata to old books. Those will be either in errata or in new version of codex on sale.
oh and for people who are complaining...do you think GW should have scrapped this entirely? This was well on works/ready around last summer.
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Post by: FrothingMuppet
So are the points in the WD chapbook from 2 months ago already outdated? The Chapter Approved Munitoroum Field Manual 2021 Mk1?
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Post by: Kdash
FrothingMuppet wrote:So are the points in the WD chapbook from 2 months ago already outdated? The Chapter Approved Munitoroum Field Manual 2021 Mk1?
They were already a re-print of the points that were released online at the start of the year, so it would be about 6 months since the last update.
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Post by: SamusDrake
NinthMusketeer wrote:I don't do Matched Play, so there's nothing here for me. Unfortunate as compared to AoS where the equivalent (General's Handbook) has loads of content for things other than Matched Play. Any tournament will include the relevant rules in their pack anyways, for that matter.
Agreed.
Nothing wrong with tournament play in 40K but its all we seem to hear about these days. Meanwhile AoS is exploring more options such as sky battles, creating a custom hero and coop/solo play. Even when Warcry wasn't around AoS still had a skirmish companion.
Its a shame because 40K has as much to offer.
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Post by: Eldarsif
SamusDrake wrote:Nothing wrong with tournament play in 40K but its all we seem to hear about these days. Meanwhile AoS is exploring more options such as sky battles, creating a custom hero and coop/solo play. Even when Warcry wasn't around AoS still had a skirmish companion.
I just wish GW would maintain and support properly their skirmish options. They have kinda squeezed the life out of Kill Team by locking Primaris and Necron datasheets in a box, and Warcry went the way of the dodo with the new army books that divided all the warcry cards between the 4 books along with a separate Tome of Champions.
GW has no interest in supporting a skirmish level game, which is a shame. Even those who championed these systems locally have given up on the systems.
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Post by: Yarium
Please, we all know it's going to be a RETURN of the 55 pt Neophyte, because someone will just copy and past the original excel sheet from the last time, and no one updated anything listed there once they FAQ'd it.
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Post by: SamusDrake
Eldarsif wrote:
I just wish GW would maintain and support properly their skirmish options. They have kinda squeezed the life out of Kill Team by locking Primaris and Necron datasheets in a box, and Warcry went the way of the dodo with the new army books that divided all the warcry cards between the 4 books along with a separate Tome of Champions.
GW has no interest in supporting a skirmish level game, which is a shame. Even those who championed these systems locally have given up on the systems.
Warcry seems to be the better favoured of the two, with better support including models. It has been a little quiet lately, to be honest.
I still enjoy Kill Team but not beyond the core manual and using Blackstone Fortress for confined area games. GW said there was an "evolution" on the way, so hopefully we'll be moving onto a better supported edition sooner rather than later...
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Post by: Eldarsif
SamusDrake wrote: Eldarsif wrote:
I just wish GW would maintain and support properly their skirmish options. They have kinda squeezed the life out of Kill Team by locking Primaris and Necron datasheets in a box, and Warcry went the way of the dodo with the new army books that divided all the warcry cards between the 4 books along with a separate Tome of Champions.
GW has no interest in supporting a skirmish level game, which is a shame. Even those who championed these systems locally have given up on the systems.
Warcry seems to be the better favoured of the two, with better support including models. It has been a little quiet lately, to be honest.
I still enjoy Kill Team but not beyond the core manual and using Blackstone Fortress for confined area games. GW said there was an "evolution" on the way, so hopefully we'll be moving onto a better supported edition sooner rather than later...
God I hope so. As much as I love my large table games I find the smaller skirmish games perfect for starting newer armies incrementally. Only reason I have 6000 points painted of Death Guard is because I started playing Death Guard a lot early on in KT and would only play with painted.
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Post by: puma713
Eldenfirefly wrote:Not sure how you can design a mission or secondary that would be bad for current Drukhari though lol. They are killy, darklances are scary, and they are so mobile.
This could make a difference, if it’s true:
Seems sus to me though.
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Post by: ERJAK
puma713 wrote:Eldenfirefly wrote:Not sure how you can design a mission or secondary that would be bad for current Drukhari though lol. They are killy, darklances are scary, and they are so mobile.
This could make a difference, if it’s true:
Seems sus to me though.
It's unfortunately super easy to fake something like that. People have demonstrated that fact on here multiple times.
It's possible but require corroboration.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.
... So 0% that pic is real.
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Post by: Daedalus81
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.
... So 0% that pic is real.
These books are soft cover and don't typically have as much lead time to print.
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Post by: Gadzilla666
Daedalus81 wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.
... So 0% that pic is real.
These books are soft cover and don't typically have as much lead time to print.
Soft cover, saddle bound, and good heavy stock so that the presses can both start up and run well. Hmmmm. Anybody have an estimate on the print run on these? I'll give you an estimate on how quickly a plant can have them out the door once the files are received.
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Post by: tneva82
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.
... So 0% that pic is real.
They didn't listen playtesters for points at all for 9e. Doubtful that has changed for these.
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Post by: macluvin
No commentary on how the new missions work or were designed to give a nerf to elite armies?
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
macluvin wrote:No commentary on how the new missions work or were designed to give a nerf to elite armies?
Well, "No Prisoners" replacing "Thin the Ranks" now counts wounds of anything not Monster, Character or Vehicle now.
I.e. for example Necron armies build around Scarabs and Wraiths or Marine armies using lots of Vanguards, Attack Bikes, etc.. should give it up more easily. Armies combining vehicles and 1 wound models like Guard or Drukhari now aren't as vulnerable to it. '
Etc..
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Post by: The Newman
Secondaries were the thing that was getting most of the complaints between the balance of core ones being terrible and some of the bespoke ones being stupid auto-takes, improving the balance there will make a big difference even if nothing else changes.
Assuming that GW does actually improve the balance and not over-correct again.
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Post by: Tarvitz77
Considering how they often get points wrong, I'm really hoping the points values are available online at some point like the last manual.
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Post by: Voss
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.
Unbiased testers? What sort of bigfoot unicorn are those?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
I would love it if re imagined secondaries helped some armies in dire straits. Astra Militarum, for instance, is just on the backfoot merely by showing up at a table right now.
Something definitely needs to be done to help the bottom/middle tier armies out right now Automatically Appended Next Post: Voss wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Oh man... I don't trust GW to discover the stupid cost of Raiders back when this would have gone to print. The lead times are so long on their books that a point change this dramatic would imply that they played their own game, even once... or listened to feedback from unbiased testers.
Unbiased testers? What sort of bigfoot unicorn are those?
That's the joke. ;-)
When you have hardcore players of Army X asked to test their rules, surely you get measured responses...
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Post by: tneva82
Well since points were what playtesters couldn't affect even with comments not much beside proof reading they could do. Points were locked in.
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Post by: Kanluwen
5 of the Biggest Points Drops
Additionally:
On the topic of surprises, we already know that the Orks and Adepta Sororitas codexes are on their way, but what about the next two?
Well, we’ve got a confession to make – the points values featured in the Munitorum Field Manual MkII for the Thousand Sons and Grey Knights are actually incorrect. That’s because their codexes were intended to be out at this point, complete with their fancy new rules and updated points values. Sadly, due to the fickle winds of fate (for which we can only presume Tzeentch is to blame), the release of these books has been delayed until a little later in the year.
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Post by: the_scotsman
helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.
15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.
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Post by: Quasistellar
pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
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Post by: Kanluwen
the_scotsman wrote:helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.
15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.
Is there anything current that really needs to be desperately FAQ'd? Genuinely curious, not a 1k sons player in sight for me.
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Post by: bullyboy
Obviously the points in the new book has both of these factions at 2W marines, hence why they released the errata to use points at 1W until codexes are released. As they said, the codexes should have been released by now and so the points in the manual would reflect those rules, not what's in their current codexes.
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Post by: Asmodai
the_scotsman wrote:helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.
15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.
Their Land Raider is down by 20.
For GK the Land Raider and the Stormraven are both down by 20.
With Heavy Bolters, Lascannons and Multi-Meltas being unchanged for GK and TS, it's pretty safe to assume there won't be a general weapon rebalancing this round.
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Post by: Rihgu
the_scotsman wrote:helpful of GW to provide a free pdf of...the thousand sons current point values completely unchanged, lol.
15 point 8" range heavy flamers with an extra AP still woooooo.
TBF, I think this is pre-empting the fact that MFM 2 will outdate the old PDF... but uh, technically by the fact that we use release date of publication to see if it's most current or not... by pre-empting the problem they have just caused the exact same thing? Obviously nobody but Karol is going to be affected by that. Very sad that his club is going to make him use the most recent points at knifepoint.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim
I'm just hoping this includes some of the weird point stuff orks got in white dwarfs. there was stuff like free kombi weapons on nobz (only price to make em takeable) and 10 point rokkit racks on deffkoptas.
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Post by: Tarvitz77
So they did indeed get some points wrong. Nice that they've stuck the corrections in an online pdf for the time being, but I'm pretty worried that the correct points values aren't going to be available online.
I'm really not keen on paying money for each balance patch, has there been any indication they're going to put up the points values after the books are out?
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Tarvitz77 wrote:So they did indeed get some points wrong. Nice that they've stuck the corrections in an online pdf for the time being, but I'm pretty worried that the correct points values aren't going to be available online.
I'm really not keen on paying money for each balance patch, has there been any indication they're going to put up the points values after the books are out?
We don't know whether they got points wrong or not.
For now, what they said is they got the points correct for Grey Knights / Thousand Sons for their Codex rules, but the Codexes are (as we know) all delayed a few months, so they published intermediary points. Barring mistakes/changes, the printed MFM points for Grey Knights and Thousand Sons will be the correct points once those Codex books hit the shelves.
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Post by: Rihgu
The points that they got wrong are that the points in the book are for the latest iteration of the Thousand Sons and Grey Knights codexes, which will not be released before the book.
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Kanluwen wrote:
Is there anything current that really needs to be desperately FAQ'd? Genuinely curious, not a 1k sons player in sight for me.
I've seen some tournaments (and the WTC, for what it's worth), not allow the 2++ on Rubric Blobs and cap it at a 3++.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
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Post by: Tarvitz77
Sunny Side Up wrote: Tarvitz77 wrote:So they did indeed get some points wrong. Nice that they've stuck the corrections in an online pdf for the time being, but I'm pretty worried that the correct points values aren't going to be available online.
I'm really not keen on paying money for each balance patch, has there been any indication they're going to put up the points values after the books are out?
We don't know whether they got points wrong or not.
For now, what they said is they got the points correct for Grey Knights / Thousand Sons for their Codex rules, but the Codexes are (as we know) all delayed a few months, so they published intermediary points. Barring mistakes/changes, the printed MFM points for Grey Knights and Thousand Sons will be the correct points once those Codex books hit the shelves.
I've re-read my post and it wasn't clear at all what I was blabbering about. Sorry about that, I'll clarify.
The Thousand Sons and Grey Knights points values in the book may not technically be wrong, but they are pretty useless without the updated codices (which presumably will contain the same points values anyway). They are essentially selling a product with pages in it that are not of use to the player. I understand GW have had some issues lately which explains why, and it is indeed good that they've put up a PDF containing what the current points values for Thousand Sons and Grey Knights should be.
What I am concerned about is everything else in the points book. Even assuming they have everything correct (they've made plenty of mistakes in the past) I don't like the idea of being sold points values. It's great that GW are making changes to points when they spot what is perceived as an imbalance, but I feel this kind of thing should be free. You don't see game developers making people pay every time they release a patch.
They have put points online in the past, I just haven't seen any indication that they will do the same thing for this manual, and it worries me that they might start thinking they can get away with charging for this kind of update.
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Post by: Geifer
They've been getting away with selling people balance patches for five years. I don't think they're only going to get that idea now.
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Post by: Therion
Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
Your post will not age well.
Age of Sigmar June/July. Sisters end of July, Orks end of August/Early Sep. GK and Tsons both out before November ends.
Anyway, please don’t spend money on this ’balance patch’. The repointing is so far detached from real needs its unreal. Dozens of units need a 30% or higher pts cut, but GW gives 9% to some of the trashiest trash there is, and mostly leaves stuff as is.
No conspiracy. Just complacency.
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Post by: Eldarsif
Anyway, please don’t spend money on this ’balance patch’. The repointing is so far detached from real needs its unreal. Dozens of units need a 30% or higher pts cut, but GW gives 9% to some of the trashiest trash there is, and mostly leaves stuff as is.
If you are not into tournament play then you can safely ignore the books. If you are into tournament play you can't ignore the books.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Sisters of Battle coin+free model is June.
Orks were said to be June as well.
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Post by: Mr. Grey
Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
I think you're overestimating, and it'll be at least August-October. Sisters codex isn't out yet and not up for preorder, and there's been no sign of when the orks are getting released(and remember, they get the special Beast Snaggas box first, with the regular codex to follow at a later point).
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Post by: bullyboy
yeah, you're looking at Sisters in June, AOS 3.0 as big release in end of June, early July, so maybe Beastsnaggas box with special edition codex somewhere in July too. Not sure when the regular Codex will drop. Then you can look at GK/TS maybe August/September timeframe.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lumineth army pack dropped around the same time as Indomitus, and since we've been told that whatever's coming is a "launch pack" ala Indomitus...we're looking at August/September for AOS3.0 to really hit its stride in all likelihood.
These preview shows they've done for the systems? They all have had a caveat of "within 3 months, assuming nothing goes wrong".
Beast-Snaggas are extremely likely to also be a June release.
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Post by: tneva82
Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
You would prefer they wouldn't have put that so the gk/ts players have to use new codex points with old rules?
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Post by: Daedalus81
Therion wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
Your post will not age well.
Age of Sigmar June/July. Sisters end of July, Orks end of August/Early Sep. GK and Tsons both out before November ends.
Anyway, please don’t spend money on this ’balance patch’. The repointing is so far detached from real needs its unreal. Dozens of units need a 30% or higher pts cut, but GW gives 9% to some of the trashiest trash there is, and mostly leaves stuff as is.
No conspiracy. Just complacency.
You may be right about the timeline. I forgot how much Sisters and Orks will get, but at the same time they're really packing in the releases to make up for lost time.
I don't agree with giant point drops. That got us into trouble last time. And in my eyes no unit needs that significant of a point drop.
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Post by: Mr. Grey
The Stompa could use a significant point drop, just saying....
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Post by: tauist
I thought all points cost were supposed to go up significantly in 9th ed, to make up for the smaller board size (recommendations)? And now yall want them back down again?
At this point, small tweaks here and there will be much better than broad stroke moves, that way lies madness and GW especially cant be trusted to pull it off.
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Post by: Dreamchild
Is nobody going to address the fact that the field manual contains points tweaks for codexes which aren't even out?
Since those codexes weren't tested out in the wild en masse (which has allegedly always been the proving ground for potential tweaks like this), then what are those supposed "tweaks" based upon?
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Post by: yukishiro1
tauist wrote:I thought all points cost were supposed to go up significantly in 9th ed, to make up for the smaller board size (recommendations)? And now yall want them back down again?
At this point, small tweaks here and there will be much better than broad stroke moves, that way lies madness and GW especially cant be trusted to pull it off.
GW does this practically every edition. Points go up at the start, to much fanfare, then go down over the course of the edition till they're back where they used to be.
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Post by: Galas
Dreamchild wrote:Is nobody going to address the fact that the field manual contains points tweaks for codexes which aren't even out?
Since those codexes weren't tested out in the wild en masse (which has allegedly always been the proving ground for potential tweaks like this), then what are those supposed "tweaks" based upon?
I don't think they are changes for the codex, is just that now this books have all the point costs in the game if I'm not wrong.
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Post by: Jadenim
Mr. Grey wrote:The Stompa could use a significant point drop, just saying....
And a native KFF.
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Post by: whembly
Just make the damn thing cheaper. There's no reason why it should be more expensive than Imperial Knights.
As for KFF... I was thinking of kit bashing a Big Mek in a chariot containing KFF being pulled my those new squigs on wheels.
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Post by: Voss
Dreamchild wrote:Is nobody going to address the fact that the field manual contains points tweaks for codexes which aren't even out?
Since those codexes weren't tested out in the wild en masse (which has allegedly always been the proving ground for potential tweaks like this), then what are those supposed "tweaks" based upon?
Nope. This is normal. Playtesting (however much or little) doesn't stop when the manuscript goes to the printers.
Likely nothing changed much anyway, as part of the purpose of the field manual is to collate all the armies in one spot. It just seems weird here because the release schedule is awry.
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Post by: Lord Zarkov
Galas wrote: Dreamchild wrote:Is nobody going to address the fact that the field manual contains points tweaks for codexes which aren't even out?
Since those codexes weren't tested out in the wild en masse (which has allegedly always been the proving ground for potential tweaks like this), then what are those supposed "tweaks" based upon?
I don't think they are changes for the codex, is just that now this books have all the point costs in the game if I'm not wrong.
This lines up with the codicies released shortly before the last MFM came out - points costs listed but unchanged from the codex.
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Post by: Quasistellar
Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
I'm talking about errata to bring all minimarine varieties up to 2w (with appropriate points cost). This should have been done the same day the space marine codex was released. Heck they might have even sold some models out of it. Crazy! But why do that when you can do. . . nothing. . . and make record profits, lol
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Post by: Jidmah
whembly wrote:As for KFF... I was thinking of kit bashing a Big Mek in a chariot containing KFF being pulled my those new squigs on wheels.
A stompa cannot ever benefit from a KFF because it doesn't fit inside the 9" bubble.
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Post by: whembly
Jidmah wrote: whembly wrote:As for KFF... I was thinking of kit bashing a Big Mek in a chariot containing KFF being pulled my those new squigs on wheels.
A stompa cannot ever benefit from a KFF because it doesn't fit inside the 9" bubble.
Bah.
Then it does need a native KFF then, I mean, what mad mek WOULDN'T slap one on that thing?
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Post by: Daedalus81
Quasistellar wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
I'm talking about errata to bring all minimarine varieties up to 2w (with appropriate points cost). This should have been done the same day the space marine codex was released. Heck they might have even sold some models out of it. Crazy! But why do that when you can do. . . nothing. . . and make record profits, lol
I maintain that just getting W2 would do nothing for CSM especially when D2 is useful against marines and raiders.
Without other meaningful changes it would not help.
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Post by: Argive
The positive note is that seem to have moved away from the 5 pts granularity.
Wraithguard are 35 pts but Wraithblades at 37.
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Post by: Dysartes
Dreamchild wrote:Is nobody going to address the fact that the field manual contains points tweaks for codexes which aren't even out?
Since those codexes weren't tested out in the wild en masse (which has allegedly always been the proving ground for potential tweaks like this), then what are those supposed "tweaks" based upon?
Who mentioned points tweaks for unreleased books? The point of the MFM is that it is a complete listing of points as of the time it went to print, but that doesn't mean anything has changed between the unreleased books and the MFM.
It just so happens that the release order is a bit screwed up, so we're getting it before we're getting all the books it covers.
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Post by: tneva82
Dreamchild wrote:Is nobody going to address the fact that the field manual contains points tweaks for codexes which aren't even out?
Since those codexes weren't tested out in the wild en masse (which has allegedly always been the proving ground for potential tweaks like this), then what are those supposed "tweaks" based upon?
Tweaks are the new codex points. Like dark eldar points in january pdf were codex point preview.
If gw hadn't released pdf gk/ts would be paying new codex points with old codex rules. So pay for 2w etc they wouldn't have
As is orks and sisters are on that situation now.
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Post by: Jidmah
whembly wrote: Jidmah wrote: whembly wrote:As for KFF... I was thinking of kit bashing a Big Mek in a chariot containing KFF being pulled my those new squigs on wheels.
A stompa cannot ever benefit from a KFF because it doesn't fit inside the 9" bubble.
Bah.
Then it does need a native KFF then, I mean, what mad mek WOULDN'T slap one on that thing?
I agree. I also remember the mek stompa having some sort of less powerful void shields, but I would have to dig up those ancient apoc books to find out. I also loved the stompa where the big mek would escape with a kopta when destroyed.
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Post by: Spoletta
Stompa is still 900, so it either has been buffed in the new dex or.... business as usual.
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Post by: lonewolf81
Spoletta wrote:Stompa is still 900, so it either has been buffed in the new dex or.... business as usual.
are there any point leaks out yet i hope for wulfen and thunderwolves point drops
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Post by: Virules
Evil Sunz kustom stompa has been showing up in competitive lists and can be super oppressive to play against (though it can also fall flat in some matchups).
Anyway, I am really bummed that there are no leaks yet, not even non-scan leaks as to changes.
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Post by: Quasistellar
Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
I'm talking about errata to bring all minimarine varieties up to 2w (with appropriate points cost). This should have been done the same day the space marine codex was released. Heck they might have even sold some models out of it. Crazy! But why do that when you can do. . . nothing. . . and make record profits, lol
I maintain that just getting W2 would do nothing for CSM especially when D2 is useful against marines and raiders.
Without other meaningful changes it would not help.
Hence why I called it "throwing a bone". There's no meat on it. That's what the expression is supposed to convey.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/throw%20%28someone%29%20a%20bone#:~:text=informal,a%20bone%20by%20buying%20lunch.
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Post by: Daedalus81
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Post by: Tyran
Dima +25, the rest of FW nids unchanged.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Those mad lads finally lost their minds... calling Immortals a "Top 5 Biggest Point Changes" when they literally didn't change the base price of a model, and merely discounted its inferior gun option.
Truly big changes...
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Post by: Darsath
Doom Scythes are still 200 points. Man, that's a real shame.
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Post by: Virules
Necrons could have used increases on a few things and decreases on some other things. Oh well.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Darsath wrote:Doom Scythes are still 200 points. Man, that's a real shame.
Mine does work. The new Admech might change my mind if they go first though.
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Post by: AduroT
Point changes:
Catacomb +10
Chronomancer w/ entropic lance +10
Immortals w/ Tesla -2
Doomsday Ark -20
Lokhust Destroyers -5
Lokhust Heavy Destroyers -10
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Post by: Daedalus81
Virules wrote:Necrons could have used increases on a few things and decreases on some other things. Oh well.
Catacomb barge +10
Chronomancer staff +10
Free tesla
Doomsday ark -20
Annihilation Barge -5
Lokhust -5
Heavy destroyer -10
I think that covers it. I play Szarekahn so the cheaper LHDs are welcome, but offset by the cronos.
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Post by: Virules
I wish Ctan + plasmancer spam was going to be less of a thing.
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Post by: Daedalus81
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Those mad lads finally lost their minds... calling Immortals a "Top 5 Biggest Point Changes" when they literally didn't change the base price of a model, and merely discounted its inferior gun option.
Truly big changes...
Marketing speak got us again.
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Post by: Tyran
Although I don't see how tesla is the inferior gun, not with cost equalized.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Tyran wrote:Although I don't see how tesla is the inferior gun, not with cost equalized.
Same. I rather enjoy picking up the lucky streaks now and then, too.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
C'monnnnn DG leaks!
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Post by: Virules
Same thing I'm waiting for haha.
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Post by: Quasistellar
+5 points on the overlord with tachyon arrow (as if that was necessary)
The reasoning behind that one eludes me, but as far as necrons go the changes although minor seem net positive. I think Lokhust heavy destroyers will see play at that price
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Post by: drakerocket
Diamecheron nerf seems silly. Yes it's probably a bit undercosted, but nids don't exactly need a nerf bat right now and no codex in sight it was a nice bandaid. Perhaps the other competitive stuff will manage to make up for a 50-75 point hike but I doubt it since everything nids competitive leans into the few efficient units (devil gaunts, hive guard, etc) and I can't see any of those going down. Maybe swarmlord? Maybe?
Necron seems...weird? I feel like ophidians/wraiths/skorpeks/doomstakers/flyers/doomsday arks all probably needed addressing along with the got awful overpriced cryptek arcana.
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Post by: Sasori
The Necron changes here are absurdly stupid. There is no reason stuff like Ophydians should still be 35 points. Paying for the Entropic Lance and the CCB going up is also absurd.
This may have made sense before we started seeing the other dexes, but it's painful for no reason at this point.
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Post by: Quasistellar
I do agree that nothing in the codex needed increases that's for sure. TBH part of the problem with the CCB was that it's just so much better than a normal overlord for not much more points. But that's not because the CCB was too good, rather because the overlords are overpriced. Overlords should be better in combat to justify their points IMO, but we know no datasheet change will take place until 10th edition, so it's down to points.
Similar problem with doomsday ark. In fact now with LHDs down in points I'd rather take three of those than one DDA.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Sasori wrote:The Necron changes here are absurdly stupid. There is no reason stuff like Ophydians should still be 35 points. Paying for the Entropic Lance and the CCB going up is also absurd.
This may have made sense before we started seeing the other dexes, but it's painful for no reason at this point.
I get where you're coming from, but the Chrono is a solid model and there was no taking the other weapon option. I don't like the CCB going up, but it is a really durable character.
I don't think Ophydians don't need to be cheaper. They need to get used, but I feel like people play armies that are straight forward "push this hard to kill stuff forward and hope the dice don't turn".
Other changes may put context to some of this as will secondaries and how those might open up people to using more units.
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Post by: Aenar
It looks like those Necrons changes were written months ago when they were still decent in competitive play.
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Post by: Darsath
I don't feel the Necron changes will have any impact in how the army performs either way, so I suppose there's that. To be honest, the points difference has to equate to a decent amount before you really start seeing much of an impact on army performance either way, so I doubt some of these changes (like the Annihilation Barge or CCB) will make any differences in how people build armies. Biggest change is to Lokhust Heavy Destroyers (LHD) because running 3 saves 30 points, but even then, I don't think they're worth running either way.
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Post by: Virules
Scarabs. Transcendent Ctan. Plasmancers.
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Post by: winterman
Not with the new No Prisoners Secondary.
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Post by: drakerocket
Yeah...for all those tourney winning lists that have transcendent c'tans and plasmancers in them.
Scarabs are very good, but their internal balance is fine (since they compete with pretty much nothing for their role) and they aren't oppressive.
What immortals really need is to be allowed to go up to units of 20 or a gauss cannon variant.
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Post by: Virules
drakerocket wrote:Yeah...for all those tourney winning lists that have transcendent c'tans and plasmancers in them.
Scarabs are very good, but their internal balance is fine (since they compete with pretty much nothing for their role) and they aren't oppressive.
What immortals really need is to be allowed to go up to units of 20 or a gauss cannon variant.
The current #1 ranked ITC Necron player, who had done very well at RTTs and Majors recently, loves to spam Ctans and Plasmancers.
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Post by: drakerocket
Has there been a top 5 majors placing for those lists?
I assume you mean Marshall Peterson? That seems a kind of one-off case. Most top 10 necron lists don't feature plasmancers or trancendent c'tans and c'tan spam is definitely not something which has shown itself to be the driving force behind necron lists.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Darsath wrote:I don't feel the Necron changes will have any impact in how the army performs either way, so I suppose there's that. To be honest, the points difference has to equate to a decent amount before you really start seeing much of an impact on army performance either way, so I doubt some of these changes (like the Annihilation Barge or CCB) will make any differences in how people build armies. Biggest change is to Lokhust Heavy Destroyers (LHD) because running 3 saves 30 points, but even then, I don't think they're worth running either way.
Szarekhan - 3 individual LHDs that basically reroll everything except 2s to hit.
Necrons don't need massive changes. Not even DE needs large across the board changes.
A light touch is best with good mission changes will do better.
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Post by: Quasistellar
Virules wrote:drakerocket wrote:Yeah...for all those tourney winning lists that have transcendent c'tans and plasmancers in them.
Scarabs are very good, but their internal balance is fine (since they compete with pretty much nothing for their role) and they aren't oppressive.
What immortals really need is to be allowed to go up to units of 20 or a gauss cannon variant.
The current #1 ranked ITC Necron player, who had done very well at RTTs and Majors recently, loves to spam Ctans and Plasmancers.
These dumb arguments keep popping up. Just because it might be good or even the best thing in a particular army or just the thing that the best player of an army uses doesn’t mean it needs nerfs.
Call me when Necrons hit >55% winrate and a high tiwp then we’ll talk nerfs.
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Post by: Vilgeir
What a mindless thing to say.
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Post by: drakerocket
Why is it a mindless thing to say? Plasmancers rarely appear in top tournament lists, if ever. Same goes for transcendent c'tans. That doesn't mean units a terrible if they do not, but it's not a poor indicator.
If something is busted usually it ends up in top tourney lists.
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Post by: Daedalus81
drakerocket wrote:Why is it a mindless thing to say? Plasmancers rarely appear in top tournament lists, if ever. Same goes for transcendent c'tans. That doesn't mean units a terrible if they do not, but it's not a poor indicator.
If something is busted usually it ends up in top tourney lists.
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Thrice warrants a look. It has not happened frequently enough to warrant any kind of concern.
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Post by: Sasori
Daedalus81 wrote: Sasori wrote:The Necron changes here are absurdly stupid. There is no reason stuff like Ophydians should still be 35 points. Paying for the Entropic Lance and the CCB going up is also absurd.
This may have made sense before we started seeing the other dexes, but it's painful for no reason at this point.
I get where you're coming from, but the Chrono is a solid model and there was no taking the other weapon option. I don't like the CCB going up, but it is a really durable character.
I don't think Ophydians don't need to be cheaper. They need to get used, but I feel like people play armies that are straight forward "push this hard to kill stuff forward and hope the dice don't turn".
Other changes may put context to some of this as will secondaries and how those might open up people to using more units.
Come on man, this argument is really thin and you know it. Nerfing a weapon option because people don't take the other one is a horrible way to try to balance something. Chronomancers did not need to be nerfed just because they were taken, the other Mancers should have come down in points.
There is no defending the CCB nerf. It was a good choice, but it was by far not an oppressive choice or overpowered in any way. There is no justification for it.
I'd really like to know your reasoning on why you think Ophydians are priced appropriately at 35 points. I have tried playing them multiple times, but they are just poor for their points. the S/T/ SV of a4 just kills them and makes them way to expensive. They do slightly more damage than Skorpekhs and Wraiths, but are less durable, and significantly less durable then the latter. Their Niche of deep striking does very little, since the only way to get any bonus to a charge is with Novokh, and even then it's only a 65% with a reroll. They don't even have fly. Compare them to Sanguinary guard, which at 5 PPM cheaper are absolutely a stronger choice in every way, by a significant margin.
Necrons needed some more drops in the Heavy Support section. I'm glad at least LHD got a good drop, though I would have liked the enmitic weapon option to be even cheaper.
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Stuff like Lychguard still being cheaper than an Aberrant is ridiculous, doubly so if you can make em ObSec. They needed at least another 10-15 points.
GSC:
https://i.imgur.com/5y9nVi5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Zw6hFxS.jpg
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Post by: tneva82
Aenar wrote:It looks like those Necrons changes were written months ago when they were still decent in competitive play.
Eh no kidding. Lead times.
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Repentia down to 14pp
Zephyrim down to 17pp
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Post by: tneva82
Either new book repentia rules nerfed or gw lost their mind
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Probably. They said Thousand Sons and Grey Knights were supposed to be out before this book, so certainly also Sisters and Orks should've been released before this book as well. Sisters Codex (and Orks) probably would've been a late 2020 Codex without any delays, given the Palatine was first teased in July 2020 (and disappeared after that when things slowed down).
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Post by: Bosskelot
Virules wrote:drakerocket wrote:Yeah...for all those tourney winning lists that have transcendent c'tans and plasmancers in them.
Scarabs are very good, but their internal balance is fine (since they compete with pretty much nothing for their role) and they aren't oppressive.
What immortals really need is to be allowed to go up to units of 20 or a gauss cannon variant.
The current #1 ranked ITC Necron player, who had done very well at RTTs and Majors recently, loves to spam Ctans and Plasmancers.
Whoop-di-fething-doo.
That doesn't mean any of those models need increasing.
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
What ... Repentia was too expensive before this? Of all the things to bring down in points... lol
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Post by: dreadblade
Any word on Chaos Knights points changes?
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Admech FW - Unchanged
Custodes FW
Telemon +20
Caladius Grav Tank -20
Tau FW
Hazard Suits -5
Nids
Swarmlord -30
Tervigon -20
Stealers -2
Trygon Prime -15
Nids FW
Dimachaeron +25
GSC
Jackals -2
Purestrains -2
Dark Angels
Talonmaster +15
Harlequins
Solitaire -2
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Post by: Ordana
Sister changes are likely because of the new codex.
Repentia are probably worse in the future.
Could be something like not being Core.
the lack of GSC changes is really something that makes me sad with how bad the army is in 9th's mission structure.
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Post by: Rogerio134134
Wonder where all the CSM/SM leaks are....
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Post by: tneva82
Eldenfirefly wrote:
What ... Repentia was too expensive before this? Of all the things to bring down in points... lol
Well remember we don't know what rules they are for. New codex points remember.
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Post by: EightFoldPath
AduroT wrote:
Point changes:
Catacomb +10
Chronomancer w/ entropic lance +10
Immortals w/ Tesla -2
Doomsday Ark -20
Lokhust Destroyers -5
Lokhust Heavy Destroyers -10
The other Chronomancer gun is quite clearly inferior, I would have liked to see them drop to 70 points base then the Lance be +10 (or 75 base and the Lance be +5).
They don't seem to have put much effort into making these point changes nuanced or interesting.
Other changes that would have been nice to see, Catacomb up but Overlord/Lord down (again with weapon options actually considered). I think quite a few of the destroyer models could have benefited from mild points drops too.
The problem with Scarabs is GW's hatred of points that aren't multiples of 5, as they cost 15 per model and come in 3s minimum, they would probably want to make them cost 20 rather than 16,17,18 or 19 points.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
Seeing a few comments around the internet saying that DG are unchanged, but no pictures. Hopefully this is confirmed/denied soon
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Post by: Aenar
Whole Tau changes:
Hazard -5
Riptide -1
Nothing else changed.
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Post by: Jidmah
Summary of secondary changes
40k News
Summary from discussion in the 40k discord overnight, no pics shown so can't confirm.
Linebreaker goes to 2pts for one unit allowing partial scoring
Similarly psy ritual is now progressive rather than all or nothing for 3/7/12
Domination changes to hold 3 and more than opponent
Scramblers progressive and 3pts per quarter so max 12
Cut off the head removed
While we stand we fight if units split and one dies only scores 3pts not 5
Teleport homer now gives 2 for doing it in no man's land
Pierce the veil now 3vp per time done
Mental interrogation now 24" but need line of sight (lol)
Assassinate gives +1vp for killing the warlord
Missions apparently identical, even the scouring.
Taken from reddit.
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Post by: Asmodai
Jidmah wrote:Summary of secondary changes
40k News
Summary from discussion in the 40k discord overnight, no pics shown so can't confirm.
Linebreaker goes to 2pts for one unit allowing partial scoring
Similarly psy ritual is now progressive rather than all or nothing for 3/7/12
Domination changes to hold 3 and more than opponent
Scramblers progressive and 3pts per quarter so max 12
Cut off the head removed
While we stand we fight if units split and one dies only scores 3pts not 5
Teleport homer now gives 2 for doing it in no man's land
Pierce the veil now 3vp per time done
Mental interrogation now 24" but need line of sight (lol)
Assassinate gives +1vp for killing the warlord
Missions apparently identical, even the scouring.
Taken from reddit.
5 minutes with a pen and my Chapter Approved 2020 can become Chapter Approved 2021.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
If that's true, I'm beginning to understand why they didn't send out copies to reviewers.
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Post by: Cynista
Daedalus81 wrote:
I get where you're coming from, but the Chrono is a solid model and there was no taking the other weapon option. I don't like the CCB going up, but it is a really durable character.
If they want to make the other weapon more attractive then make the base model cheaper as well as +10 for the Lance. There's no justification for it and the CCB being durable is the least you expect for what it already costs. A points increase on the only decent HQ's in the book, instead of cutting costs of the rest is a pathetic excuse for balancing.
Virules wrote:
Scarabs. Transcendent Ctan. Plasmancers.
Lol. Oh, you're serious?
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Post by: Yarium
My main group is deciding to vote with wallets. Store owner already had to commit to bringing them in, but we want him to get annoyed at GW that their product sucked and so didn’t sell. We’re telling the owner that we’ll spend at least an equal amount on some new plastic to make it up to him, but GW should be sent a message on this.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Sasori wrote:Come on man, this argument is really thin and you know it. Nerfing a weapon option because people don't take the other one is a horrible way to try to balance something. Chronomancers did not need to be nerfed just because they were taken, the other Mancers should have come down in points.
There is no defending the CCB nerf. It was a good choice, but it was by far not an oppressive choice or overpowered in any way. There is no justification for it.
I'd really like to know your reasoning on why you think Ophydians are priced appropriately at 35 points. I have tried playing them multiple times, but they are just poor for their points. the S/T/ SV of a4 just kills them and makes them way to expensive. They do slightly more damage than Skorpekhs and Wraiths, but are less durable, and significantly less durable then the latter. Their Niche of deep striking does very little, since the only way to get any bonus to a charge is with Novokh, and even then it's only a 65% with a reroll. They don't even have fly. Compare them to Sanguinary guard, which at 5 PPM cheaper are absolutely a stronger choice in every way, by a significant margin.
Necrons needed some more drops in the Heavy Support section. I'm glad at least LHD got a good drop, though I would have liked the enmitic weapon option to be even cheaper.
The CCB and Chrono nerf is fairly inconsequential unless you're spamming chronos and warriors/scarabs, which seems like the angle they want to discourage.
Ophydians suffer from the 'drop and charge syndrome'. They're literally almost jump pack units at M10. If they deepstrike out of sight and don't charge for a turn that isn't a loss. They can move through buildings, too.
SG are W2, but a much better save so a wash, I guess? But then consider something like a Disintegrator hitting each unit - the outcome is very different.
SG get 3/4 S5 AP3 D2. Ophydians get 4 S4 AP4 D2 ( one guy with 3 S6 AP4 D3 that explodes on 6s) and 2 S4 AP1 D1, reroll their own 1s to hit, they have a -1 to be hit in melee like SG, reanimate ( unlikely ), and heal.
They could get away with lowering the price a bit, but their current cost isn't obscene.
3 Ophydiands kill 5.5 marines. 3 SG kill 4.4 - 5 if you add in the bolt guns.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:Either new book repentia rules nerfed or gw lost their mind
I'm betting toned down. They're pretty spicy right now. Automatically Appended Next Post: Asmodai wrote:5 minutes with a pen and my Chapter Approved 2020 can become Chapter Approved 2021.
That's pretty much been the case the whole time. I buy the book, because it's convenient to have the wording handy.
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Post by: Aenar
Yarium wrote:My main group is deciding to vote with wallets. Store owner already had to commit to bringing them in, but we want him to get annoyed at GW that their product sucked and so didn’t sell. We’re telling the owner that we’ll spend at least an equal amount on some new plastic to make it up to him, but GW should be sent a message on this.
I wouldn't mind spending this amount of money on a decent update to competitive 40K, but this is clearly not enough.
It's a joke of an update, no wonder they've sent no review copies out as it would've been negatively reviewed even by the staunchest GW defenders.
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Post by: Bosskelot
The CCB and Chrono nerf is fairly inconsequential unless you're spamming chronos and warriors/scarabs, which seems like the angle they want to discourage.
If they want to discourage it they shouldn't have written the Codex so that it heavily revolves around that style of play.
It's like their approach to Cultists and CSM throughout 8th and into 9th. Just brute forcing nerfs on viable units won't encourage people to try other styles. They'll still keep playing the only viable option and if it becomes too much they'll just stop playing the army.
It's not how you design or balance an ongoing game.
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Post by: tneva82
Yarium wrote:My main group is deciding to vote with wallets. Store owner already had to commit to bringing them in, but we want him to get annoyed at GW that their product sucked and so didn’t sell. We’re telling the owner that we’ll spend at least an equal amount on some new plastic to make it up to him, but GW should be sent a message on this.
Fair enough. You are locking yourself out of tournaments for a year but if tournaments aren't issue.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Aenar wrote: Yarium wrote:My main group is deciding to vote with wallets. Store owner already had to commit to bringing them in, but we want him to get annoyed at GW that their product sucked and so didn’t sell. We’re telling the owner that we’ll spend at least an equal amount on some new plastic to make it up to him, but GW should be sent a message on this.
I wouldn't mind spending this amount of money on a decent update to competitive 40K, but this is clearly not enough.
It's a joke of an update, no wonder they've sent no review copies out as it would've been negatively reviewed even by the staunchest GW defenders.
What would be "enough"? I would have liked to have seen tweaks to faction secondaries, but those can be done in FAQ.
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Post by: Quasistellar
I mean if all they updated was the secondaries, and even then not by much, it's pretty hard to justify paying what they're asking for these books. At least 8th edition chapter approved tried to put in extra fun stuff to entice you.
Chapter approved is something that should be included for free with the app subscription.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Bosskelot wrote:The CCB and Chrono nerf is fairly inconsequential unless you're spamming chronos and warriors/scarabs, which seems like the angle they want to discourage.
If they want to discourage it they shouldn't have written the Codex so that it heavily revolves around that style of play.
It's like their approach to Cultists and CSM throughout 8th and into 9th. Just brute forcing nerfs on viable units won't encourage people to try other styles. They'll still keep playing the only viable option and if it becomes too much they'll just stop playing the army.
It's not how you design or balance an ongoing game.
In general I don't disagree, but I also don't think it is the only viable angle for Necrons at all. It is certainly the most straightforward and honestly running multiple blobs is a trap in my eyes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quasistellar wrote:Chapter approved is something that should be included for free with the app subscription.
I agree. Though I still like to have a hard copy, because I'm an old fart now, I guess.
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Post by: bullyboy
Those point changes...what a joke, for most it's a case of why bother? I mean, how do you look at a Riptide and go "Mmm, it's a bit much innit, but it'll really hit the sweet spot if we drop it by 1 point".
GW swinging hard and missing just recently...Fallen update, did not buy on principal, now this. Nope. As many others said, pen to paper will be enough.
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Post by: Ravajaxe
People, remember that we have been given a free downloadable update at the begginning of the year. Significant point changes here or there have already been done, so there should not be high expectations there, especially considering the covid-19 lockdown disruption to tournaments, and thus data. What would you have said about the content, if there have been no munitorum field manual 2021 mark 1 ? I know 9th edition is not in a very good shape. But so much salt ?
The changes to the missions (secondaries) seem rather important. This is the part we should focus on.
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Post by: Yarium
tneva82 wrote:Fair enough. You are locking yourself out of tournaments for a year but if tournaments aren't issue.
I don't believe I am. I was able to go to two tournaments during COVID whilst numbers were really down, and in neither of them did the TO or my opponents ask me to whip out my copy of Chapter Approved. The missions were printed for each table, and everyone knew the secondaries, so needing this for missions or secondaries is not an issue. If it was about points; well I have the GW app, which will update with the new points as well - so again, not an issue. As such, I am definitely in the position where I can legally attend tournaments without this purchase.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Yarium wrote:tneva82 wrote:Fair enough. You are locking yourself out of tournaments for a year but if tournaments aren't issue.
I don't believe I am. I was able to go to two tournaments during COVID whilst numbers were really down, and in neither of them did the TO or my opponents ask me to whip out my copy of Chapter Approved. The missions were printed for each table, and everyone knew the secondaries, so needing this for missions or secondaries is not an issue. If it was about points; well I have the GW app, which will update with the new points as well - so again, not an issue. As such, I am definitely in the position where I can legally attend tournaments without this purchase.
It was a silly comment to make anyway, he was just fishing for an exchange as usual. Not buying the MFM has literally never prevented anyone from attending a tournament.
This book is turning out to be such an unmasking moment for even GW's staunchest defenders.
I mean that 1 point change on riptides it's like that which makes it so fricken obvious some of the changes are simply for the sake of change so that EVERY army has a reason to purchase.
Jesus, they even hit armies pre-release! Enjoy purchasing your sisters book that was invalid pre-release lol
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Post by: Cybtroll
The -1 to the Riptide is mental if you consider they just updated almost everything to be either 5 or 10 point.
That is quintessentially bad product management (not a novelty, but since is accelerating the last year's if becoming more and more relevant).
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Post by: Not Online!!!
So, GW drops atalan jackals by 2 pts and purestrains...
But brood brothers, Neophytes didn't get anything out of it?
And especially not Aberrants`?!?
i duno man, seems like BS Automatically Appended Next Post: Cybtroll wrote:The -1 to the Riptide is mental if you consider they just updated almost everything to be either 5 or 10 point.
That is quintessentially bad product management (not a novelty, but since is accelerating the last year's if becoming more and more relevant).
It's artificially making it technically an obligatory purchase.
It's in essence nickle and diming on a must have balance patch, atleast for the tournament crowd.
Yup , not even EA forces you to buy a Balance patch
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Post by: Asmodai
Daedalus81 wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Asmodai wrote:5 minutes with a pen and my Chapter Approved 2020 can become Chapter Approved 2021. That's pretty much been the case the whole time. I buy the book, because it's convenient to have the wording handy. Most years at least have new missions. This year the complete change is one or two lines of errata to 9 different secondaries.
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Post by: kodos
How do you make an update based on data of played games while not many are able to play that game
and not selling the book on its planned date, not matter if you have content for it or not, is not an option either for reasons
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Post by: Daedalus81
Red Corsair wrote: Yarium wrote:tneva82 wrote:Fair enough. You are locking yourself out of tournaments for a year but if tournaments aren't issue.
I don't believe I am. I was able to go to two tournaments during COVID whilst numbers were really down, and in neither of them did the TO or my opponents ask me to whip out my copy of Chapter Approved. The missions were printed for each table, and everyone knew the secondaries, so needing this for missions or secondaries is not an issue. If it was about points; well I have the GW app, which will update with the new points as well - so again, not an issue. As such, I am definitely in the position where I can legally attend tournaments without this purchase.
It was a silly comment to make anyway, he was just fishing for an exchange as usual. Not buying the MFM has literally never prevented anyone from attending a tournament.
This book is turning out to be such an unmasking moment for even GW's staunchest defenders.
I mean that 1 point change on riptides it's like that which makes it so fricken obvious some of the changes are simply for the sake of change so that EVERY army has a reason to purchase.
Jesus, they even hit armies pre-release! Enjoy purchasing your sisters book that was invalid pre-release lol
Truly diabolical. Truly. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cybtroll wrote:The -1 to the Riptide is mental if you consider they just updated almost everything to be either 5 or 10 point.
That is quintessentially bad product management (not a novelty, but since is accelerating the last year's if becoming more and more relevant).
Or a typo and given the track record there's bound to be some in there. Automatically Appended Next Post: Asmodai wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodai wrote:5 minutes with a pen and my Chapter Approved 2020 can become Chapter Approved 2021.
That's pretty much been the case the whole time. I buy the book, because it's convenient to have the wording handy.
Most years at least have new missions. This year the complete change is one or two lines of errata to 9 different secondaries.
What I would expect for a system that is doing relatively well is not a ton of upheaval, which is what we're getting. People losing their minds over not having huge sweeping changes and tons of things added are insane.
It should be a free thing, but that seems a little besides the point for some posters.
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Post by: Tmh
No Ork or Chaos Daemon leaks? Seems the two factions I play haven’t been scanned from what I’ve seen
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Post by: Daedalus81
Tmh wrote:No Ork or Chaos Daemon leaks? Seems the two factions I play haven’t been scanned from what I’ve seen
Or DE. You'd figure that'd be the first place someone would go. I've heard no changes to Raiders though.
I would also love to see what W2 rubrics are going to be.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
Chaos daemons: Lord of change +20 (270 to 290) New be'lakor is 360.
No pictures, so unconfirmed. But this is being repeated elsewhere
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Post by: ERJAK
Yarium wrote:tneva82 wrote:Fair enough. You are locking yourself out of tournaments for a year but if tournaments aren't issue.
I don't believe I am. I was able to go to two tournaments during COVID whilst numbers were really down, and in neither of them did the TO or my opponents ask me to whip out my copy of Chapter Approved. The missions were printed for each table, and everyone knew the secondaries, so needing this for missions or secondaries is not an issue. If it was about points; well I have the GW app, which will update with the new points as well - so again, not an issue. As such, I am definitely in the position where I can legally attend tournaments without this purchase.
With the caveat that you could potentially face censure at any time should a dispute come up.
Even large tournaments you can go the whole event without needing more than just your codex. It's all in how lucky you are and how many disputes you avoid.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
Sisters of Battle in their entirety, with new units, etc.
Changes that are more than just points:
Celestine and Geminae one unit again. Geminae cannot be taken solo.
Nullrods and Simulacrums cost points again.
Missionary can now take a power maul?
Preacher can now take an upgrade that I don't know how to translate from italian?
Condemnor Boltguns cost the same as a heavy bolter?!?! Must be some rules changes for these...
Zeph moved to fast attack!
They fixed dominions having heavy options and retributors having special options typo from last MFM. Still forgot to put simulacrum on the ret options, but probably a typo and should be 5 pts not 0.
No special price for seraphim hand flamers anymore.
Vahl - 265 - 5 pts off my prediction
Paragon typo? 240 pts/model with 3 model units seems insane, probably 80 pts/model and they just put 240 since they can only be taken in 3s.
Blessings of the Faithful - Our upgrade options for characters I assume? Some of the names are a bit off translated from italian. No canoness superior upgrade option.
Edit: Sisters up to 5-20 size units. Maybe we get Admech style buffs and 20 sisters can mess someone up
Repentia 4-10?
Weird name for flamers. Different than the name for flamers in other imperial leaks. Maybe our flamers are special somehow?
Credit to McWerp
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Post by: xeen
Some of this does not look like it was discussed here so I am not sure if people have seen this........
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWH40k/comments/nncky9/ca_points_changes/
Has some pics for Guard and Dark Angles and a few others
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Post by: Dysartes
Red Corsair wrote:Jesus, they even hit armies pre-release! Enjoy purchasing your sisters book that was invalid pre-release lol
I don't recall anyone having access to the 9th ed Sisters 'dex yet, so it is a bit soon to say that the MFM has made it invalid - given what they've said about printing schedules, the points in the MFM should, in theory, match what we get in the 'dex.
Unfortunately, as sounds like being the case with the Paragons, that may include repeated typos.
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Post by: Aenar
A couple of days ago I was writing how this kind of book is the best thing they introduced to 40K in years.
I never learn. I keep hoping that their work holds up to my expectations and I inevitably end up being let down. Silly me.
This is the most ridiculous release I remember. They copy-pasted the booklet from one year ago, changed a couple of numbers, the date on the cover and called it a day. A joke of a "patch" for their flagship game.
The fact that they have the gall of charging you for it is hilarious.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
Select updates to TS from their new book (Rubrics/Scarabs will be +1 wound, etc)
Ahriman +10
Infernal Master 90
DP -10
Exalted on Disc +5
Rubrics capped at 5-10, 21ppm
Tzaangors capped at 10-20, 7ppm
Scarab Occult at 40ppm (+10 ppm) with mostly cheaper wargear
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Cultists, dropped a point?
HALELUJA!
Albeit that makes GSC neos and broodbrothers even worse
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Post by: Daedalus81
Marshal Loss wrote:
Select updates to TS from their new book (Rubrics/Scarabs will be +1 wound, etc)
Ahriman +10
Infernal Master 90
DP -10
Exalted on Disc +5
Rubrics capped at 5-10, 21ppm
Tzaangors capped at 10-20, 7ppm
Scarab Occult at 40ppm (+10 ppm) with mostly cheaper wargear
6 point warpflamer - that's better. 27 points becomes a tough sell depending on how all is dust works.
Tzaangor Shaman at 70 is welcome, too.
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Post by: tneva82
Red Corsair wrote:
Jesus, they even hit armies pre-release! Enjoy purchasing your sisters book that was invalid pre-release lol
How? By having identical page in other? You DO realize right those points are straight from new codex? That the booklet contains ALL points?
Or do you expect sister points miss completely from this booklet? What on earth THAT would gain? How players would be better off not having any points in this booklet over having same as in codex?
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim
Anyone seen things for orks?, i'm betting grots get bumped to 10 points .
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Post by: ERJAK
Marshal Loss wrote:Sisters of Battle in their entirety, with new units, etc.
Changes that are more than just points:
Celestine and Geminae one unit again. Geminae cannot be taken solo.
Nullrods and Simulacrums cost points again.
Missionary can now take a power maul?
Preacher can now take an upgrade that I don't know how to translate from italian?
Condemnor Boltguns cost the same as a heavy bolter?!?! Must be some rules changes for these...
Zeph moved to fast attack!
They fixed dominions having heavy options and retributors having special options typo from last MFM. Still forgot to put simulacrum on the ret options, but probably a typo and should be 5 pts not 0.
No special price for seraphim hand flamers anymore.
Vahl - 265 - 5 pts off my prediction
Paragon typo? 240 pts/model with 3 model units seems insane, probably 80 pts/model and they just put 240 since they can only be taken in 3s.
Blessings of the Faithful - Our upgrade options for characters I assume? Some of the names are a bit off translated from italian. No canoness superior upgrade option.
Edit: Sisters up to 5-20 size units. Maybe we get Admech style buffs and 20 sisters can mess someone up
Repentia 4-10?
Weird name for flamers. Different than the name for flamers in other imperial leaks. Maybe our flamers are special somehow?
Credit to McWerp
Provided they didn't feth up any major army rules, these are fantastic changes. Also, my guess is all melee options are getting cheaper due to priests not giving +1 attack.
Looking into the list it looks like they probably fethed up retributors (no way they drop points and keep move and shoot with no penalty/storm of fire) exorcists(new profile from previous leaks at this point costs=paperweight) the battle sanctum (80pts for terrain never gonna fly under current deployment rules) immolators (Chassis went down but weapons ONLY IT CAN USE went UP? WHY?!?)
All the vehicles are doggak and retributors probably ate a decent nerf but unless they TANKED bloody rose, sisters should still be fine.
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Post by: Ravajaxe
So there are two concurrent topics on the subject. I have just put a translation of the complete secondary objectives in the other thread. Check this out :
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/798530.page
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Post by: Kitane
GSC has to suffer from the GW Tyranid curse, seeing how unlucky they get in the yearly updates.
The CA17 forgot to update their points properly and this was only fixed in the following CA18, one year later (and very little else, given how crippled the army was at that point)
December CA2019 applied an uncalled-for and grossly outdated nerf to a faction already struggling hard in the new SM dominated meta, because it was written in a different age.
The 9th edition CA2020 kicked them straight in da jibblies for the second time in a row for no discernible reason, cementing their place at the bottom.
And now with hopefully plenty of time to absorb the consequences of the last two fuckups, CA2021 tries absolutely nothing.
That's 1 ok and 4 terrible CA books for the GSC.
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Post by: Gadzilla666
The Guard stuff is hard to make out, but I think I'm seeing Death Riders up 5 PPM and everything else the same. Is that right? Lame.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Gadzilla666 wrote:
The Guard stuff is hard to make out, but I think I'm seeing Death Riders up 5 PPM and everything else the same. Is that right? Lame.
Unfortunately, the new Secondaries don't do Guard any favors (or minor ones). Tank armies still auto-give up 15pts meaning they have to stay on the shelf until MAYBE their codex helps reinvent the army?
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Post by: Meanmurph
Anyone heard anything about ork points?
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Post by: tneva82
Well those are basically preview of codex. Most interesting part will be they show how much units are likely change as the points will be for the new codex rules rather than current one.
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Post by: ulfhednir86
Any leaks on the Astra militarum changes
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Post by: xttz
tneva82 wrote:
Well those are basically preview of codex. Most interesting part will be they show how much units are likely change as the points will be for the new codex rules rather than current one.
I read somewhere that Orks are unchanged, with no new units. It looks like the original plan was to have Sisters, TSons and GK codexes out before CA21 then release the new Orks book after.
https://imgur.com/gallery/RTw125q
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Post by: Ravajaxe
xttz wrote:tneva82 wrote:
Well those are basically preview of codex. Most interesting part will be they show how much units are likely change as the points will be for the new codex rules rather than current one.
I read somewhere that Orks are unchanged, with no new units. It looks like the original plan was to have Sisters, TSons and GK codexes out before CA21 then release the new Orks book after.
https://imgur.com/gallery/RTw125q
Thanks.
Only change that I spotted for the Astra Militarum : Ogryns 30 -> 25 points. They are fieldable now !
Super heavies, other tanks, etc... nothing changed.
The plasma pistol omission for the Tempesus Scions troop is still going on. It should cost 5 points, still somewhat free currently.
Edit : somehow I missed the superheavies drop.
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Post by: Eldarsif
Tmh wrote:No Ork or Chaos Daemon leaks? Seems the two factions I play haven’t been scanned from what I’ve seen
What I've heard is that there are no changes for Chaos Daemons except a point hike on LoC.
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Post by: Abaddon303
Ravajaxe wrote: xttz wrote:tneva82 wrote:
Well those are basically preview of codex. Most interesting part will be they show how much units are likely change as the points will be for the new codex rules rather than current one.
I read somewhere that Orks are unchanged, with no new units. It looks like the original plan was to have Sisters, TSons and GK codexes out before CA21 then release the new Orks book after.
https://imgur.com/gallery/RTw125q
Thanks.
Only change that I spotted for the Astra Militarum : Ogryns 30 -> 25 points. They are fieldable now !
Super heavies, other tanks, etc... nothing changed.
The plasma pistol omission for the Tempesus Scions troop is still going on. It should cost 5 points, still somewhat free currently.
Haven't all the super heavies dropped 40pts?
Crusaders stay at 16pts despite them dropping to 11pts in the sisters book. Presumably have a nerf incoming in the sisters codex
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Post by: Ravajaxe
Abaddon303 wrote: Ravajaxe wrote: xttz wrote:tneva82 wrote:
Well those are basically preview of codex. Most interesting part will be they show how much units are likely change as the points will be for the new codex rules rather than current one.
I read somewhere that Orks are unchanged, with no new units. It looks like the original plan was to have Sisters, TSons and GK codexes out before CA21 then release the new Orks book after.
https://imgur.com/gallery/RTw125q
Thanks.
Only change that I spotted for the Astra Militarum : Ogryns 30 -> 25 points. They are fieldable now !
Super heavies, other tanks, etc... nothing changed.
The plasma pistol omission for the Tempesus Scions troop is still going on. It should cost 5 points, still somewhat free currently.
Haven't all the super heavies dropped 40pts?
Crusaders stay at 16pts despite them dropping to 11pts in the sisters book. Presumably have a nerf incoming in the sisters codex
Yeah you are right. All IG superheavies dropped a whopping 40 points.
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Post by: Gadzilla666
Oh, now I really want to see the CSM points, especially our fw tanks. Hell, I'd settle for the loyalist fw points, they'd be the same.
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Post by: Jidmah
All leaks can be found here, enjoy: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/noj7u0/2021_munitorum_field_manual/ Automatically Appended Next Post: Just for reference: Only DG change is discount for land raider. No changes for orks, but the kopta rokkit typo sadly was reverted and nobz on warbikes are once again confused whether they are elite or fast attack.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Would you look at that. No GK Primaris.
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Post by: Gadzilla666
So, what is essentially a flying Sicaran, with better BS, and a 5++ is now the same price as a standard Sicaran with two lascannons. But no CP tax. Good balancing there gw. At least the fw Land Raiders got the same buffs as the codex variants.
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Post by: Voss
Huh. The new high lord of terra isn't a lord of war, and everything else was just dumped into the Sisters elite slot (bar the tank).
Didn't expect that. Was hoping the new chaplain would help fill the HQ void and expected the battlesuits to be Heavy.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Which is surprising to me. I thought the reason GKs weren't updated immediately alongside every other Loyalist Marine 'Dex was because they were going to do a new line of minis for them.
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Post by: yukishiro1
I'm glad they aren't. Keep GK GK, I don't want them to turned into just another space marine chapter.
Mutalith Vortex Beast went up by 10 points, I really hope that means they totally redid it, because 135 and its current profile was a bad joke.
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Post by: Voss
yukishiro1 wrote:I'm glad they aren't. Keep GK GK, I don't want them to turned into just another space marine chapter.
I was hoping a little for new kits, primaris or not (something along the lines of the chaos marine new kits). The old kits are showing their age (the knee squats make my knees ache by proxy), and the wrist-mounted storm bolters look like a 12 year old duct taped a tissue box to their forearms. And I don't even know what the proportions on those terminators are supposed to be anymore.
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Post by: yukishiro1
They're definitely fugly. But I'd rather have the distinctive fugly guys than just be rolled into the generic primaris cash cow.
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
Well, from what I can see of the reddit leaks, for CSM, its just cultists -1 points, Chosen -1 points and Landraiders -20 points.
I don't know if I should be worried that GW thinks CSM is just fine, or hopeful that this is the best they can do until they drop the CSM 9th ed codex.
BTW, cultists have been nerfed so much in other ways that a 1 point drop won't make them OP. I am pretty sure it won't.
Oh! I realised Venomcrawlers are now 20 points cheaper too! Ok, that makes them cheaper! Yay! This is one change that I like. They are not OP. Don't worry. A list of 3 venom crawlers will never win the game just because it had three. But at least now they are 20 points cheaper.
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Post by: Castozor
At least they are now the same value as the insanely much better at their job poxwalkers, rather than being more expansive on top of it too.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Cultists will remain useless except in rare builds where you can pop useful strats off them that just key off having a unit there, e.g. Alpha Legion.
Of course, CSM are borderline useless too except in rare builds, so you'll probably still cultists as mandatory troops choices just because both the options are so terrible, so why not take the cheaper unit that does nothing over the expensive unit that also does nothing?
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
Last time, when mortars were the rage, cultists were just giving free kills and free rear objectives to imperium. Now that I see much fewer mortars in imperium lists, maybe cultists can be taken if only because you might be able to hide them out of line of sight while still holding a rear objective.
CSM are probably still better in that role (rear objective holder) against all comers because they have 3+ armor and T4 so they at least won't fall over if anyone so much as looks at them. And you can't be sure what the terrain will be like.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Eldenfirefly wrote:Well, from what I can see of the reddit leaks, for CSM, its just cultists -1 points, Chosen -1 points and Landraiders -20 points.
I don't know if I should be worried that GW thinks CSM is just fine, or hopeful that this is the best they can do until they drop the CSM 9th ed codex.
BTW, cultists have been nerfed so much in other ways that a 1 point drop won't make them OP. I am pretty sure it won't.
Oh! I realised Venomcrawlers are now 20 points cheaper too! Ok, that makes them cheaper! Yay! This is one change that I like. They are not OP. Don't worry. A list of 3 venom crawlers will never win the game just because it had three. But at least now they are 20 points cheaper.
So chosen and CSM are now the same point value.. Strange but interesting.
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Post by: Caprican
Therion wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
Your post will not age well.
Age of Sigmar June/July. Sisters end of July, Orks end of August/Early Sep. GK and Tsons both out before November ends.
Anyway, please don’t spend money on this ’balance patch’. The repointing is so far detached from real needs its unreal. Dozens of units need a 30% or higher pts cut, but GW gives 9% to some of the trashiest trash there is, and mostly leaves stuff as is.
No conspiracy. Just complacency.
Oof I bet you’re feeling stupid now. Since your post aged as well as milk.
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Post by: Daedalus81
Caprican wrote:
Oof I bet you’re feeling stupid now. Since your post aged as well as milk.
No need for that. We're all scrambling in the dark.
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
Caprican wrote: Therion wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:Quasistellar wrote:pretty shameful they can't even throw GK and TS players a bone, here.
I really wonder what they are having their people actually *do* right now. I know things move behind the scenes years ahead of what's released. Is *eveyone* now working on 10th ed stuff? They can't spare a couple people to errata or faq current edition things?
Throw a bone...like...a codex? Realistically we're looking at having them in July or August at the latest.
Your post will not age well.
Age of Sigmar June/July. Sisters end of July, Orks end of August/Early Sep. GK and Tsons both out before November ends.
Anyway, please don’t spend money on this ’balance patch’. The repointing is so far detached from real needs its unreal. Dozens of units need a 30% or higher pts cut, but GW gives 9% to some of the trashiest trash there is, and mostly leaves stuff as is.
No conspiracy. Just complacency.
Oof I bet you’re feeling stupid now. Since your post aged as well as milk.
His post became a fine cheese? Why would that be stupid--sounds profitable.
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Post by: Jarms48
Voss wrote:Huh. The new high lord of terra isn't a lord of war, and everything else was just dumped into the Sisters elite slot (bar the tank).
Didn't expect that. Was hoping the new chaplain would help fill the HQ void and expected the battlesuits to be Heavy.
GW are loving their elite slot bloat. I was full expecting the Lord of Terra to be a Supreme Commander, not your generic LoW. Automatically Appended Next Post:
I saw this too. Seems to be a lot of Inquisition units missing though. I saw a couple a the bottom of the Imperial Knights photo and one at the end of the FW Astra Militarum changes alas still not all their datasheets though.
Did any Inquisitor units shift in points at all? Automatically Appended Next Post: Abaddon303 wrote:Crusaders stay at 16pts despite them dropping to 11pts in the sisters book. Presumably have a nerf incoming in the sisters codex
I'm going to assume that GW will say their now equipped with combat shields instead of storm shields. Then the new melee shield Castellans (forgot the name) will have storm shields.
At this point they should just take Crusaders out of both the Sisters and Guard codex, then make them Inquisitorial henchmen again. They'd be alright as a Troops choice in an Inquisition detachment. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cybtroll wrote:The -1 to the Riptide is mental if you consider they just updated almost everything to be either 5 or 10 point.
That is quintessentially bad product management (not a novelty, but since is accelerating the last year's if becoming more and more relevant).
This, a 1 point reduction on such an expensive unit is just obnoxious. It shows that they looked at the unit, and only decided that it was worth bringing to a multiple of 5.
At least if they did a 6 point reduction it'd look a little bit less sus.
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Post by: TedNugent
The fact they actually printed 900 points on Stompa again. What is the point of chapter approved if they're really just saying wait for the codex.
Imagine paying money for this book.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
TedNugent wrote:The fact they actually printed 900 points on Stompa again. What is the point of chapter approved if they're really just saying wait for the codex.
Imagine paying money for this book.
the point is to force a balance patch down the competitive side of the game and make them pay for it.
Or atleast that's what it feels like.
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Post by: Jidmah
TedNugent wrote:The fact they actually printed 900 points on Stompa again. What is the point of chapter approved if they're really just saying wait for the codex.
Imagine paying money for this book.
There were absolutely no changes to orks whatsoever. It has been like this for all factions that were about to get a new codices ever since they started updating point, and it makes perfect sense to do so.
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Post by: tneva82
TedNugent wrote:The fact they actually printed 900 points on Stompa again. What is the point of chapter approved if they're really just saying wait for the codex.
Imagine paying money for this book.
Good thing points aren't point of book.
No points are even in chapter approved...
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Post by: Ordana
Voss wrote:Huh. The new high lord of terra isn't a lord of war, and everything else was just dumped into the Sisters elite slot (bar the tank).
Didn't expect that. Was hoping the new chaplain would help fill the HQ void and expected the battlesuits to be Heavy.
The Thigh Lord has less then 10 wounds, why would she ever be a LoW?
The general consensus is that she will be a Supreme Commander.
Also Zepherim have moved to fast attack to make room for the suits, tho I agree the Elite slot is still way to crowded.
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Post by: Marshal Loss
Looks like TS/GK will be out before Orks as well, given the points values in the MFM.
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Post by: Daedalus81
TedNugent wrote:The fact they actually printed 900 points on Stompa again. What is the point of chapter approved if they're really just saying wait for the codex.
Imagine paying money for this book.
Would you prefer they changed a bunch of points and mislead you into buying a bunch of other models that might suddenly change cost again? Also it isn't like Orks are without options to succeed.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Tyranid-wise, Tervigons went down 20pts, and that's about it right?
Also, CSM Chosen have the option of a Thunder Hammer now?
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Post by: Ordana
Nurglitch wrote:Tyranid-wise, Tervigons went down 20pts, and that's about it right?
Swarmlord cheaper and from FW the Diathingy went up.
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Post by: Tyran
Nurglitch wrote:Tyranid-wise, Tervigons went down 20pts, and that's about it right?
Swarmlord down 30, Tervigon down 20, Trygon Prime down 15, Genestealers down 2. Dima up 25.
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Post by: Gadzilla666
Nurglitch wrote:Tyranid-wise, Tervigons went down 20pts, and that's about it right?
Also, CSM Chosen have the option of a Thunder Hammer now?
Chosen have been able to take Thunder Hammers since Vigilus.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Gadzilla666 wrote:Nurglitch wrote:Tyranid-wise, Tervigons went down 20pts, and that's about it right?
Also, CSM Chosen have the option of a Thunder Hammer now?
Chosen have been able to take Thunder Hammers since Vigilus.
Neat.
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Post by: BlackoCatto
Krieg Riders and Command up by 33 and 41% respectively. ... what the Hell!?
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Post by: Wha-Mu-077
BlackoCatto wrote:Krieg Riders and Command up by 33 and 41% respectively. ... what the Hell!?
They're seriously focused on trying to kill Krieg as an army recently, you shouldn't be suprised.
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Post by: Daedalus81
BlackoCatto wrote:Krieg Riders and Command up by 33 and 41% respectively. ... what the Hell!?
They were a little silly. No idea if that is a good cost though.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Daedalus81 wrote: BlackoCatto wrote:Krieg Riders and Command up by 33 and 41% respectively. ... what the Hell!?
They were a little silly. No idea if that is a good cost though.
could've solved that by adding 2ppm not killing the unit though.
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Post by: Gadzilla666
Probably more of a reaction to how good they were in Imperial soup lists than actual Krieg lists. Guard just can't have anything nice because of their potential allies.
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Post by: Fergie0044
I've heard rumours that the missions haven't changed from the CA2020 ones. Is this true? Is it only the secondary objectives that have changed?
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Post by: Daedalus81
Fergie0044 wrote:I've heard rumours that the missions haven't changed from the CA2020 ones. Is this true? Is it only the secondary objectives that have changed?
I do not have any confirmation of that, but that is what has been stated. I'm sure we'll find some small tweaks here or there.
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
Was there a need to change the missions?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Maybe some new missions with some variety would have been nice. Some missions that aren't just variations on where the objective markers are placed + different deployment zones.
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Post by: Daedalus81
H.B.M.C. wrote:Maybe some new missions with some variety would have been nice. Some missions that aren't just variations on where the objective markers are placed + different deployment zones.
A lot of the mission secondaries were pretty bunk as well.
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Post by: BlackoCatto
Who the Hell did Guard piss off at GW to suffer so.
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Post by: Jarms48
BlackoCatto wrote:Krieg Riders and Command up by 33 and 41% respectively. ... what the Hell!?
Yeah it sucks, but this was a completely justifiable change. They were more durable than their equivalent points in Guardsmen, and they still are even with their new point costs. A squad of 10 Death Riders will still be more durable than 40 Conscripts, hell, if Guardsmen were still exactly 5 points per model they'd be more durable than them as well.
You should have seen this change coming. I proxied my old Rough Riders as Death Riders, played them in a few local tournaments here in Australia and against a few friends. I stopped using them in any friendly games, I literally felt bad using them.
What you should be complaining about is the lack of changes to the Guard elsewhere. Something like:
The biggest change there is the Valdor Tank Hunter which for some reason is still pointed like a LoW choice. It still even has Steel Behemoth showing how much effort they put into the FW book. Obviously that's what I would have done, then keep those point costs until the codex releases where they can change the points again to make up for any buffs.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
The Macharius should be a Heavy Support choice like the Tyranid Hierodules.
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Post by: Jarms48
H.B.M.C. wrote:The Macharius should be a Heavy Support choice like the Tyranid Hierodules.
It seems GW believe that anything with 20+ wounds is considered a LoW when it comes to Vehicles or Monsters.
Which is odd considering things like Dense Cover rules don't work from 18+ wounds. It really shows that terrain rules need a FAQ to 20+.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I think it shows that basing the terrain rules on arbitrary wound counts limits your design space.
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Post by: Jarms48
On a side note, does anyone know if there was an changes to Inquisition units?
I saw on the leaks that Solomon Lok remained the same but not the points for Hector Rex.
On the GW side I see that Inquisitors, Eisenhorn, Greyfax, and Acolytes remained the same but I know nothing for anything else.
I'm really interested to know if there was any point drops for some of the other named Inquisitors.
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Post by: tneva82
Marshal Loss wrote:Looks like TS/ GK will be out before Orks as well, given the points values in the MFM.
Except bases on WHC article it looks GW is on "orks first". Which is bit weird. It's possible that GW for some reason hastened orks ahead in schedule. Or ork codex being first locked in limited box and coming separately later affects so it could be limited ork box, TS/ GK, other side, separate ork codex release....
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
I imagine the order will be something like
1. Ork Box (with collectors codex only available in the box)
2. Tsons & GK
3. Actual Ork release with codex
Like how the Sister's codex was released with their first wave a couple months after a collectors version was bundled in the army box.
Which will leave Orks Players in a weird position where they can't get their new codex for a while if they didn't buy the shiny box
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Post by: kodos
Is there anything why people assume that the Limited Edition Ork Release Box will be any different to the SoB Box?
because for me it was more or less clear that this:
1. Ork Box (with collectors codex only available in the box)
2. Tsons & GK
3. Actual Ork release with codex
is exactly what is going to happen, with the real Ork release being in "Orctober"
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Post by: Fergie0044
Don't know if they are NEEDED or not, but since I already have CA2020 I'm just trying to work out why I would buy this CA or not (spoiler alert, I'm not).
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Post by: tneva82
kodos wrote:Is there anything why people assume that the Limited Edition Ork Release Box will be any different to the SoB Box?
because for me it was more or less clear that this:
1. Ork Box (with collectors codex only available in the box)
2. Tsons & GK
3. Actual Ork release with codex
is exactly what is going to happen, with the real Ork release being in "Orctober"
Why people keep thinking one off event is every year...
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Post by: AduroT
Still crazy that GW charges $40 for what PP gives you every year for free.
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
H.B.M.C. wrote:Maybe some new missions with some variety would have been nice. Some missions that aren't just variations on where the objective markers are placed + different deployment zones.
Thank you for the info, I genuinely did not know.
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Post by: kodos
tneva82 wrote: kodos wrote:Is there anything why people assume that the Limited Edition Ork Release Box will be any different to the SoB Box?
because for me it was more or less clear that this:
1. Ork Box (with collectors codex only available in the box)
2. Tsons & GK
3. Actual Ork release with codex
is exactly what is going to happen, with the real Ork release being in "Orctober"
Why people keep thinking one off event is every year...
Orctober is a Meme and comes up every year, it is just that GW itself never really used and a full Ork release in October would be the first time GW does it
but make it November if it feels better
my point is that we have seen a SoB like Box Set with a new line of models and it is more likley that this will be an SoB like release ( LE Box first, and rest months later) than a regular 40k release
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
AduroT wrote:Still crazy that GW charges $40 for what PP gives you every year for free.
TBF there is genuine value in just having it printed in a nice format. I pay double the price for hard copies of RPG books over the PDFs just because having a physical copy is worth that much more to me.
Of course $40 is obviously absurd but something in the $15ish range would not be out of line IMO.
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Post by: kodos
it would be less of a problem if there was the possibility to get a pdf file for those in the first place
I like hardcovers too and it happens that I often buy all 3 versions of a gaming book (hardcover, softcover, pdf/e-book)
but 30€ for a Softcover with no other legal option to get the points update is something different
a 10€ pdf next to a 20€ Softcover Tournament Saison Package and we could talk about
(paying for the updated points is not an option anyway)
76825
Post by: NinthMusketeer
I remain a fan of the AoS model of filling the gap with content that has value. The Anvil of Apotheosis from GHB2020 has been awesome, especially as they have been tossing in additional content for it in White Dwarf.
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Post by: Sunny Side Up
Dunno. All Chapter Approved throughout 8th had completely new missions, additional content like strats, datasheets, some cool open play content, etc...
gakky FLG/ITC practices creeping in of only doing matched-play stuff and that at minimal effort is definitely not a good sign.
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Post by: kodos
NinthMusketeer wrote:I remain a fan of the AoS model of filling the gap with content that has value. The Anvil of Apotheosis from GHB2020 has been awesome, especially as they have been tossing in additional content for it in White Dwarf.
AoS is the better product at the moment in many ways
but this is more of a standard buisness model, you have your cash cow on the one side were you try to get as much money as possible with the least investment and a question mark/rising star on the other side that has a lot of potential but there is not much room to dissapoint the consumer and you have to make high afford/quality products to grow
it also looks like AoS is the first main game from GW that does get 3 Editions in a row without major changes to the core
and yes, having a Narritive Campaigne, new units or progress in the story in each CA and the price would not be that bad
76825
Post by: NinthMusketeer
I do enjoy AoS' second-child status to be sure. It is funny to think about though, 40k already dominates the wargaming scene but if GW developed it competently they could just obliterate the competition in popularity.
721
Post by: Manfred von Drakken
So, looking at the full leaks, it looks like Thousand Sons are getting Inferno Bolts for all their vehicle weapons, now.
I am now giddy.
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Post by: Jidmah
Manfred von Drakken wrote:So, looking at the full leaks, it looks like Thousand Sons are getting Inferno Bolts for all their vehicle weapons, now.
I am now giddy.
About damn time.
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Post by: tneva82
Looks like orks, tau and necron get their super heavy auxiliary for 1CP in new CA rather than 3CP. Interesting it was so faction limited.
124882
Post by: Gadzilla666
tneva82 wrote:Looks like orks, tau and necron get their super heavy auxiliary for 1CP in new CA rather than 3CP. Interesting it was so faction limited.
Which FAQ is this in? BRB?
Edit: Never mind. Sorry tneva, got so damned mad I didn't realize you said CA.
If this is right, I'm gonna drown gw in salt.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
I'm confused, ignore me
100848
Post by: tneva82
Gadzilla666 wrote:tneva82 wrote:Looks like orks, tau and necron get their super heavy auxiliary for 1CP in new CA rather than 3CP. Interesting it was so faction limited.
Which FAQ is this in? BRB?
Edit: Never mind. Sorry tneva, got so damned mad I didn't realize you said CA.
If this is right, I'm gonna drown gw in salt.
Yeah it's in the CA2021 page that describes CP's per game size, how many datasheets you can have etc. Very small casual mention that says "barring these factions(like imperium, aeldar etc)" super heavy aux det's command bonus gets changed to +2 CP if faction matches with warlord. Ie -3 and then you get 2 back for 1CP loss total.
Bit surprised how restrictive it is. I would have expected baneblade's to fall for this for IG armies etc but guess not.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
tneva82 wrote: Gadzilla666 wrote:tneva82 wrote:Looks like orks, tau and necron get their super heavy auxiliary for 1CP in new CA rather than 3CP. Interesting it was so faction limited.
Which FAQ is this in? BRB?
Edit: Never mind. Sorry tneva, got so damned mad I didn't realize you said CA.
If this is right, I'm gonna drown gw in salt.
Yeah it's in the CA2021 page that describes CP's per game size, how many datasheets you can have etc. Very small casual mention that says "barring these factions(like imperium, aeldar etc)" super heavy aux det's command bonus gets changed to +2 CP if faction matches with warlord. Ie -3 and then you get 2 back for 1CP loss total.
Bit surprised how restrictive it is. I would have expected baneblade's to fall for this for IG armies etc but guess not.
You'd still be able to get the bonus as Guard though right? The wording is "from the same faction as your Warlord, and that Faction is not Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids", so if your warlord shares any other faction (like Astra Militarum) you'd still get the benefit.
124882
Post by: Gadzilla666
tneva82 wrote: Gadzilla666 wrote:tneva82 wrote:Looks like orks, tau and necron get their super heavy auxiliary for 1CP in new CA rather than 3CP. Interesting it was so faction limited.
Which FAQ is this in? BRB?
Edit: Never mind. Sorry tneva, got so damned mad I didn't realize you said CA.
If this is right, I'm gonna drown gw in salt.
Yeah it's in the CA2021 page that describes CP's per game size, how many datasheets you can have etc. Very small casual mention that says "barring these factions(like imperium, aeldar etc)" super heavy aux det's command bonus gets changed to +2 CP if faction matches with warlord. Ie -3 and then you get 2 back for 1CP loss total.
Bit surprised how restrictive it is. I would have expected baneblade's to fall for this for IG armies etc but guess not.
Yeah, sounds weird. Like 4chan weird.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:You'd still be able to get the bonus as Guard though right? The wording is "from the same faction as your Warlord, and that Faction is not Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids", so if your warlord shares any other faction (like Astra Militarum) you'd still get the benefit.
You can't get much more "Imperium" than Imperial Guard. Don't think it's real though.
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Post by: AduroT
I’m celebrating my Monolith only costing me 1cp to use. Now I just wish they let them get Dynasty bonuses…
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Post by: Gadzilla666
Ok, I get it. IMPERIUM doesn't work, because then loyalists or Guard could use Knights. CHAOS doesn't work, because CSM could use Chaos Knights or the Daemon LoWs. It has to be a HERETIC ASTARTES LoW, or a ASTRA MILITARUM LoW. The reason it doesn't mention Orks, Necrons, or Tau is because they can't ally with anyone. This is perfect.
My Fellblade is now 2CP instead of 4CP.
Groovy.
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Post by: Manfred von Drakken
Right. A CHAOS detachment could have regular CSM, demons, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all mixed in.
A detachment consisting of just THOUSAND SONS units would be a THOUSAND SONS detachment, not a CHAOS detachment.
What's interesting is that seems to only apply to Grand Tournament missions, and not the game in general.
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Post by: Dysartes
I'd generally agree with that interpretation, but it seems a bit clunky, and probably worth an FAQ (or designer's commentary) request for clarity.
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Post by: Jidmah
Dysartes wrote:I'd generally agree with that interpretation, but it seems a bit clunky, and probably worth an FAQ (or designer's commentary) request for clarity.
Isn't that just the same wording which prevents people from souping inside a detachment?
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Post by: Lord Zarkov
Dysartes wrote:I'd generally agree with that interpretation, but it seems a bit clunky, and probably worth an FAQ (or designer's commentary) request for clarity.
It’s the same wording as for factions within a detachment is it not? Has to share a codex faction keyword rather than a super-faction keyword.
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Post by: Eldenfirefly
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, I get it. IMPERIUM doesn't work, because then loyalists or Guard could use Knights. CHAOS doesn't work, because CSM could use Chaos Knights or the Daemon LoWs. It has to be a HERETIC ASTARTES LoW, or a ASTRA MILITARUM LoW. The reason it doesn't mention Orks, Necrons, or Tau is because they can't ally with anyone. This is perfect.
My Fellblade is now 2CP instead of 4CP.
Groovy.
My Lord of Skulls now cost just 1 CP to field! I am so happy now!
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Post by: Sarigar
Jidmah wrote: Dysartes wrote:I'd generally agree with that interpretation, but it seems a bit clunky, and probably worth an FAQ (or designer's commentary) request for clarity.
Isn't that just the same wording which prevents people from souping inside a detachment?
That is my interpretation. For the Wraithknight, I can't use the Aeldari keyword, but I can use the Asuryani keyword if I were building a pure Craftworld army and now get the benefit to spending less CP.
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Post by: Arbitrator
NinthMusketeer wrote:I do enjoy AoS' second-child status to be sure. It is funny to think about though, 40k already dominates the wargaming scene but if GW developed it competently they could just obliterate the competition in popularity.
What would AoS' competition be, other than people who only play 40k/ AoS because they're the biggest wargames? And those people are already playing 40k for that reason anyway. The only fantasy, large-scale 'skirmish' game with major success I can think of is WarmaHordes and PP was too busy blowing it's own foot off for AoS' growing success to really factor into that. Everything else out there is either rank-and-file, uses a handful of models and completely different rules, is a different genre entirely, or is an historical.
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Post by: alextroy
Sarigar wrote: Jidmah wrote: Dysartes wrote:I'd generally agree with that interpretation, but it seems a bit clunky, and probably worth an FAQ (or designer's commentary) request for clarity.
Isn't that just the same wording which prevents people from souping inside a detachment?
That is my interpretation. For the Wraithknight, I can't use the Aeldari keyword, but I can use the Asuryani keyword if I were building a pure Craftworld army and now get the benefit to spending less CP.
Wouldn't even need to be a pure Craftworld Army. You could have an Asuryani warlord in one detachment, a Harlequin or Drukhari detachment, and still get the bonus for the ASH detachment.
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Post by: Jidmah
So, has anyone checked if the BRB part of the book has been errata'ed?
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