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Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 11:00:36


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming?

https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/

"A combination of a high barrier to entry and outdated, misogynistic attitudes keep women out of a hobby where they could thrive."

Do you think this article aims at 'traditional' wargamers in terms of the discussed demographic (it is also the one that gets professional interest as they use that group to recruit to professional wargaming roles)? Though the barrier to entry is presumably the same for both men and women, unless women in the west have lower disposable incomes at the 'GW recruitment' age?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 11:59:36


Post by: chaos0xomega


I don't deny that there are internal factors to the hobby and the industry at work in ostracizing women, but I think most women are kept out by external factors like gender norms and expectations well before they ever encounter misogyny within the community itself.

Young boys are bombarded from a young age with marketing designed to draw them into playing with GI Joe action figures or video games that simulate war. Young girls on the other hand are conditioned by marketing to play house and buy things colored pink, with easy bake ovens, dolls that they must care for like babies, etc. These expectations and marketing angles are reinforced as they age - war films and video games are marketed towards men, romcoms and dramas towards women. This is further reinforced by well entrenched societal gender norms - there are expectations for men to serve in the military, whereas there is not for women, who are a minority in military service (and when they do more often than not they go into support services like nursing - moreso because they have been historically excluded from serving in combat than because of any inherent predilection to avoid it) and far more likely to seek a professional career in other fields or become homemakers, etc.

Long story short, women don't generally take interest in the hobby because lifelong marketing and conditioning steers them away from it while steering men towards it. I assume this is reinforced by peer pressure, as any young lady that does take interest in the hobby will likely be discouraged by their more-conditioned female friends from continuing to do so, while being ostracized by young men in the same manner. "Boys only, no girls allowed", "eww those toys are for boys, why don't you play with these nice pink dollies instead", and all that jazz.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 12:07:21


Post by: BertBert


A combination of natural proclivity and outside factors, which does include cultural conditioning, sexism and gatekeeping to varying degrees.

This has been discussed and researched thousands of times and the underlying data hasn't changed.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 12:09:35


Post by: kirotheavenger


I don't think it's exclusively conditioning, at all. When you give toys to monkeys girls, tend to take the soft toys and boys take the trucks, spin the wheels, and bash things.
How much the venn diagram of male and female likes/dislikes overlaps is debatable but it's definitely not a circle.

Regardless of what causes it, I think that's probably the main big reason there aren't many women in wargaming.

I've encountered maybe a dozen women at most in wargaming, all but one was the partner of one of the guys (and I'm not sure about that one).
This perhaps relates to how people normally get into wargames - through friends. Aged 10-12 friends are normally the same gender, even as people get older friend circles tend to be more mono-gender, particularly among us nerds who tend to less sociable.
So another reason I think there are fewer women in wargaming is that, they're less likely to be introduced to it.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 12:23:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Scanned the article as my lunch break is almost over. Apologies if I’ve missed something as a result.

But it seems to be focussed more on the gaming side of things, rather than the hobby as a whole.

The source for the 1-2% statistic is a magazine, seemingly historical oriented. To understand that result and draw any solid conclusion, we’d need to know their basic reader base, and their reach as a publication. It’s not a name immediately familiar to me. Whilst I don’t claim to be any kind of authority, that is suggestive of perhaps a niche reach within the wider war gaming hobby.

As for game night observations? I don’t game in my local GW, because I don’t much fancy being in an enclosed space with whiffy teenagers. Did quite enough of that when I was said whiffy teenager. So one has to question how revealing that observation is.

I know a fair few of the Dreded Wimmins involved in the hobby. Not all of them bother with the game, being instead into the art and painting side of things.

I’ll come back to this after work once I’ve had a chance to properly read and digest the article.

I don’t think I’ll edit this post, as I don’t want people thinking I’m trying to gloss over stuff I missed


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 12:25:31


Post by: Blackie


Why so few women wargamers?

The real questions should be: how many male nerds or people interested in fantasy/sci fi are actually wargamers? How many females? If the ratio is comparable, then the answer is: less women are interested in fantasy and sci-fi than males, simple.

There may be very few wargamer girls, but also few people that loves sci-fi and fantasy settings are actual wargamers. I know a lot of people that enjoy some sci-fi and fantasy stuff (books, comics, movies, tv series, videogames, even cosplay) but a tiny fraction of them is interested in wargaming, let alone painting models AND playing.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 12:29:45


Post by: Jadenim


I think the most interesting point in that article is the win at all costs attitude that can be very common in war gaming, particularly in public locations, which can be very off putting to new comers and people with a more casual interest, regardless of race, gender, etc. (but ads yet another barrier for those in a minority in the hobby). It also links to Kirotheavengers point; if you get brought into the hobby as a group activity with existing friends, you’ll see less of that issue.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 12:33:22


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Jadenim wrote:
I think the most interesting point in that article is the win at all costs attitude that can be very common in war gaming...

To cut you off here I think that's actually a very good point.
Women are often less competitive than men, in my experience they prefer shared activities to competitions - that's very much not wargames, at least not the traditional/popular ones.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 12:59:48


Post by: chaos0xomega


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think it's exclusively conditioning, at all. When you give toys to monkeys girls, tend to take the soft toys and boys take the trucks, spin the wheels, and bash things.
How much the venn diagram of male and female likes/dislikes overlaps is debatable but it's definitely not a circle.



This is incorrect. What the studies found was that male monkeys preferred wheeled toys and hard toys, etc. over plush dolls, whereas female monkeys took equal interest in both kinds of toys.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 13:01:19


Post by: Cronch


And that's why there's more women in boardgaming than in wargaming.
I think I brought it up elsewhere today, but wargaming has the same "old boys club" feel RPGs had until late 90s-early 2000s, but whereas RPGs as a whole managed to get past it, and now catch majority of nerd girls, wargaming never did. Card games and boardgames were always (despite being competitive) more open to women participation too.
And this thread, despite I bet everyone in here thinking they're open-minded and fair, is a perfect microcosmos of that attitude.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 13:32:12


Post by: kirotheavenger


chaos0xomega wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think it's exclusively conditioning, at all. When you give toys to monkeys girls, tend to take the soft toys and boys take the trucks, spin the wheels, and bash things.
How much the venn diagram of male and female likes/dislikes overlaps is debatable but it's definitely not a circle.



This is incorrect. What the studies found was that male monkeys preferred wheeled toys and hard toys, etc. over plush dolls, whereas female monkeys took equal interest in both kinds of toys.


You got me on the fine details.
I would hesitate to say I was incorrect though, the researchers concluded the same thing I did (and the same as a second study as well).

I do agree that wargames is a bit of an old boys club. But this is far from the exclusive reason there are so few women in the hobby.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 13:52:38


Post by: Cronch


Sure, but...again, there are women gamers, there are women in sports, there are women doing all sorts of "competitive" activities, including other tabletop gaming. Somehow wargaming is the one that just doesn't appeal?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:07:05


Post by: chaos0xomega


 kirotheavenger wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't think it's exclusively conditioning, at all. When you give toys to monkeys girls, tend to take the soft toys and boys take the trucks, spin the wheels, and bash things.
How much the venn diagram of male and female likes/dislikes overlaps is debatable but it's definitely not a circle.

This is incorrect. What the studies found was that male monkeys preferred wheeled toys and hard toys, etc. over plush dolls, whereas female monkeys took equal interest in both kinds of toys.

You got me on the fine details.
I would hesitate to say I was incorrect though, the researchers concluded the same thing I did (and the same as a second study as well).
I do agree that wargames is a bit of an old boys club. But this is far from the exclusive reason there are so few women in the hobby.

I think that depends on what you mean - you seem to have taken this to mean that women are the problem/aren't interested in wargaming on some sort of inherent gender basis. The study would imply that women aren't really the problem since "equal interest" implies that women would have the same inherent proclivity towards wargaming as men do, only perhaps being diluted by the presence of other interests as well whereas men are seemingly more limited and focused.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:26:18


Post by: kirotheavenger


Cronch wrote:
Sure, but...again, there are women gamers, there are women in sports, there are women doing all sorts of "competitive" activities, including other tabletop gaming. Somehow wargaming is the one that just doesn't appeal?

Sports is a team game. There's also less women in sports than there are men.
I'm obviously not saying no woman ever enjoys competitive sports, but generalising; women are less interested in that than men.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:32:39


Post by: Frazzled


The wife always noted that war-gaming events physically smelled bad and that whenever she came in the looks would creep her out.

She did not get this vibe taking the Boy to card or other tournaments, only when visiting me at a 40K tournament.

GC was an active DnD / LARP/ video games / board games comic chicka but had absolutely no interest in wargaming.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:33:11


Post by: Cronch


Do tell me how biathlon or marathon running is a team game (or even the supremely "girly" sport of dressage or fencing). And again, even if we assume that somehow fewer women are competitive, WHY do those fewer women gravitate towards anything but tabletop wargaming when they thrive in adjecent hobbies?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:33:25


Post by: kirotheavenger


chaos0xomega wrote:

I think that depends on what you mean - you seem to have taken this to mean that women are the problem/aren't interested in wargaming on some sort of inherent gender basis. The study would imply that women aren't really the problem since "equal interest" implies that women would have the same inherent proclivity towards wargaming as men do, only perhaps being diluted by the presence of other interests as well whereas men are seemingly more limited and focused.

It feels really nitpicky, but I don't like to say "women are the problem". It's not a problem, it's just a trend.

You're absolutely right that women's interests are more diluted by other interests whereas men are more focused. That alone will lead to gender representation skews.
If you see, say, 75% of men liking wargames but 50% of women you'll see men outnumbering women 3:2, which will then snow ball as more men bring in male friends and it snowballs into a 'old boys club'. Obviously those numbers are just plucked out of my arse to demonstrate the core theory.
That's also not the only reason but a reason. Women in wargaming is obviously a complex topic with a multi-faceted explanation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
Do tell me how biathlon or marathon running is a team game (or even the supremely "girly" sport of dressage or fencing). And again, even if we assume that somehow fewer women are competitive, WHY do those fewer women gravitate towards anything but tabletop wargaming when they thrive in adjecent hobbies?

Because there are other factors.
Women tend to be less interested in war than men as another factor.
Wargaming does have an old-boys-club sense about it that adjacent hobbies like rpgs have lost. I think they've put a lot of effort into shaking that stereotype in a way that wargames have not.
It's loads and loads of these slight gender-trends/biased that all combine into the dynamic that we see today.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:38:55


Post by: tauist


I think its going to be changing little by little. When I was a kid, I didn't know of many girls who played video games either. Girls already seem to be painting minis so the actual wargames will follow sooner or later.

But playing pickup games at the FLGS? Fuggetabout it They will mostly prefer playing with people they know, and cant blame them tbh



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:40:43


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Jadenim wrote:
I think the most interesting point in that article is the win at all costs attitude that can be very common in war gaming *snip*


Its a real problem in professional wargames and training serials. If you are red/white teams you often have to manage such people into roles where they are limited to play the game not the scenario.

It also affects the take away's. Scroll down here for the aftershocks bit (aftershocks is a great game to run for teams or small offices incidentally).
https://wavellroom.com/2021/01/15/wargaming-has-a-diversity-problem/



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:

The real questions should be: how many male nerds or people interested in fantasy/sci fi are actually wargamers? How many females? If the ratio is comparable, then the answer is: less women are interested in fantasy and sci-fi than males, simple.


Anecdotally boardgaming and RPGs have far more women. Indeed the clubs I have attended in big cities they are often majority women (luckily you can always scurry back to the wargamers).
Even if there is a significant difference, there are also historical and contemporary wargames, so it isn't just Sci Fantasy.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:49:01


Post by: Cronch


 tauist wrote:

But playing pickup games at the FLGS? Fuggetabout it They will mostly prefer playing with people they know, and cant blame them tbh

Yeah, we once again fall back on women playing board, card, even RPGs in lgs's, but (often) not wargames. And honestly I'm not surprised. Hang out at the wargame table enough, and you'll hear some amazingly hidebound comments and gross jokes. Those happen everywhere, but at the RPG table, you will get bonked for that kind of behavior hard.


Because there are other factors.
Women tend to be less interested in war than men as another factor.

We went from "women are not as competitive" to "women don't like war as much", which I guess is some progress, the blanket statement is no longer the size of texas. But even if we assume that most women aren't interested in war, you get those that will happily play war themed boardgames, or RPGs where combat is the key aspect (D&D) or even card games where it's rare to not have some sort of war as theme, but stray away from wargaming. And they're not scared off by the hobby aspect, as noted there's plenty of women painters around. And you have outliers like Malifaux, which are as brutal as any other wargame (even more so, dead bodies are a resource in the game), but seem to garner much greater attention than say, warmachine or warhammer.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:52:42


Post by: Polonius


At first, I read the article and agreed with the thesis, even finding it self evidence. Tabletop wargaming is pretty far on the geeky side of the gaming spectrum, requiring a ton of esoteric knowledge as well as a lot of materials and prep time. Further, warhammer players tend to see the hobby as a boys club, perhaps benignly as an escape from wives, all the way to some pretty ugly misogyny at times. (I always say that between varsity sports, a college fraternity, and Wargaming, I have seen more open bigotry in Wargaming than anywhere else).

That all being said, correlation is not causation. Lots of communities were hostile to women joining, but women wanted to join them and did so. I'm curious if it's really the attitudes that are keeping women away. It seems logical, and the woman's experience in that article seems legit.

I think it's pretty telling that when you look at gaming as a whole, female participation goes down as barriers to entry go up. Women make up over half of mobile gamers, less than half but a lot of console and board gamers, a large minority of RPG players, A solid slice of CCG players, and a tiny drop of miniatures players.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 14:53:21


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think that article rather overreaches when it compares desire to win a game with white male dick dominance over all the women and minorities.

Although the message it seems to being trying to convey is probably sound; people can approach these games for different reasons and men tend to favour the competitive approach more than women, which results in women being pushed out of wargaming and into other places that favour their approach more, such as RPGs.

We see this schism among our own community, the classic narrative/casual vs competitive gamer argument.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 15:08:31


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 kirotheavenger wrote:
*snip* white *snip*


Well that is another issue. Though anecdotally for me I have seen a change between say the 'old' (historical) club of 50+ (ok mostly 60+ now) guys and the younger one. The 'younger' club is more proportionate to the local area and matches what you would expect to see, the older club is mostly white guys and exceptions tend to be people travelling from overseas and visiting as opposed to home grown players. Of course that could be proportionate to what it was in the area 40 years ago in terms of who had the leisure time for such pursuits.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 15:14:01


Post by: BlackoCatto


Not another of these articles.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 15:15:31


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think that's a whole other discussion.
You're right though, I've seen far more women in wargaming than I've seen non-whites.
Incidentally, the military is the same. It has a reputation for being male-heavy but there's more women in the military than black men, at all ranks.

It's made more complex because a lot of factors that logically lead to a male-female divide don't seem to do the same for black-white.
The only reason I can think of is different social circles. When I was at school the black kids generally had their group and the white kids had theirs. These weren't exclusive groups, blacks and whites would chat and have fun together, but would still gravitate towards themselves.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 15:58:23


Post by: chaos0xomega


 kirotheavenger wrote:

Incidentally, the military is the same. It has a reputation for being male-heavy but there's more women in the military than men, at all ranks.


Uhh, not sure if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, and maybe the UK is different, but in the US this isn't even remotely true. As of 2019 women make up 20 percent of the Air Force, 19 percent of the Navy, 15 percent of the Army and almost 9 percent of the Marine Corps. Looking up the UK it looks like you would still be incorrect: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-armed-forces-biannual-diversity-statistics-2020/uk-armed-forces-biannual-diversity-statistics-1-april-2020? With only 10-11% of the british military being female, I honestly have zero idea how you could make this error or what it was you were actually trying to say.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 16:03:25


Post by: kirotheavenger


Sorry, typo - missed a word!
That's meant to be black men.

The British army is 10.9% female (disproportionately officers though) and only 8.8% BAME (spread roughly equal through the ranks).

Interestingly it equals up a bit in reserves; which are 14.9% female and 5.7% BAME.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 16:04:43


Post by: Overread


I think the important thing is to separate barriers to entry in general from barriers of a specific target group (in this case women).

Something like cost being a barrier to entry is only valid if you can prove significant income variation between men and women interested in wargaming. Otherwise its simply a regular barrier to entry that is universal be you man or woman.



Now don't get me wrong, removing barrier to entry and gatekeeping are good things all round; however if the objective is the study and resolution of one specific target group then its important to have a clearer understanding of that target group.


Honestly I'd say one of the biggest issues is that we likely don't have enough data to really pool into structure to move forward with easily. Likely as a result of a lack of central pooling of data; but also because when someone leaves early and isn't interested then you are going ot miss their data. IF they never step into the community its hard for the community to work out the reasons why.
One also has to be careful that you actually pool the right population group who would be receptive to wargaming bar the barriers of entry. Otherwise you run the risk that you go chasing a market of people to appease who aren't really interested at all anyway.




Personally I think there are casual ways to encourage which don't require major changes - one easy one is the more active promotion of women within wargaming in general. More women doing battle reports; playing games; doing painting sessions; doing book and model reviews; codex reviews and the like. Like follows like and its one way to encourage a steady social change and attract new people without really changing anything fundamental.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 16:29:42


Post by: chaos0xomega


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Sorry, typo - missed a word!
That's meant to be black men.

The British army is 10.9% female (disproportionately officers though) and only 8.8% BAME (spread roughly equal through the ranks).

Interestingly it equals up a bit in reserves; which are 14.9% female and 5.7% BAME.



Ok, that makes a lot more sense.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/07 23:43:53


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Sorry, typo - missed a word!
That's meant to be black men.

The British army is 10.9% female (disproportionately officers though) and only 8.8% BAME (spread roughly equal through the ranks).

Interestingly it equals up a bit in reserves; which are 14.9% female and 5.7% BAME.


I know nothing on the topic, but google indicates that roughly 13.8% of the general population is BAME, so 8.8% representation isn't terribly far off.

There's probably disparity on the communities soldiers come from also, so it'd be interesting to see a cross correlation with that.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 15:08:27


Post by: Easy E


Oh cool*, Becky in this article helps produce Est Sans Resultants from The Wargaming Company. I think she also illustrates a ton of their painting guides too!

It was also great to see the Great Wargaming Survey referenced. It is really just an internet survey and nothing "clinical" or "Scientific" but it is the best we have. I have participated in it several times a year. However, it is mostly Historical and "hard core" focused. Not a lot of casual wargamers or sci-fi/Fantasy types would be answering that!

I especially think Historical games such as Ancients and Nappies are going to be WAY behind the curve as these genres are typically "older", white men as exemplified by Peter Cushing! The article even calls out that most Historicals are aging Boomers.

I think the key sentence from the article is this, "This is a scene that favors the grognards first, and grognards tend to be suspicious and fearful of any perceived outsiders."

I have experienced this myself as a wargamer moving to a new area many times, and I am an old, white guy! I can only imagine how nightmarish it could be for someone who is not an old, white guy!

The article puts the onus on the companies to do more to be inclusive, but that might be a bit of a misunderstanding of the market. They do not control the venues (for the most part) that these games take place in. It is up to store owners and clubs to create these "safe-spaces" more than any Wargaming Company (with the possible exception of GW).

Anyone know how Clubs and the like are handling this issue?






*= Cool, is not the correct word, but it was neat to see her called out in the industry. Their company does nice work, and she is a big part of its success!


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 15:34:41


Post by: Overread


In the past most clubs I've been in were small and tended to rely on you finding them rather than them finding you. They'd advertise in a local store and that might be about it. Online activity might be sporadic if at all (normally one person gets the bug, does a bunch of stuff, burns out and then its left to appear dead).

I very much think clubs could help themselves with a lot more advertising and event holding and such to drum up interest.




As for historical games as I see it they are in a trap whereby they are basically a much older generation which can find it very hard to attract new blood. Right now, as you say, they are doing fine because there's a nice big boomer population supporting them. However I think they could come unstuck as their aging population base continues to age and slip out of the hobby as they become too old to play or die.

It can result in a boom-bust cycle whereby the firms do well for now, but can end up busting and then falling apart because their market suddenly dries up very fast and the huge generation gap makes it very hard to replace them.

I will say that over the last 20-30 years "geeky" hobbies have become far more mainstream. Heck video games have gone from being super geeky to so mainstream you're likely considered odd if you don't game. Warhammer is still out there as being more geeky, but its far more around now than in hte past. Heck Larping has gone from a corner of the super geeky dnd players into a huge thing that's attracting a lot of non-standard geeks to its ranks.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 15:40:12


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, it's pretty weird. I'm involved in a lot of 'nerd' communities, and wargaming is the one that has remained steadfastly hard-locked into the adult white dude demographic.

For a while, I went and played a few games of Necromunda at an artist makerspace that was really close to my old work location, and the demographic there was basically the same as in my city - 50% women, all colors pretty much represented, younger, visibly queer folks.

The group I help run though, is and has been since I started exclusively younger white and asian dudes between 20-40, generally with no or young kids.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 15:52:02


Post by: infinite_array


 Easy E wrote:
Anyone know how Clubs and the like are handling this issue?


It's something that I'm going to have to think about as a club president. I was voted into the role during the pandemic which means that we haven't had in-person meetings, but that should change soon.

Even at almost-30, I'm the youngest full member, with the general age probably being closer to around 50-60. The club's focus is mostly on historical gaming, with some dabbling in non-GW scifi and fantasy. The club's stance on that has been that there are plenty of shops that are pretty much dedicated to the mainstream games. Of course, this has meant chance of growth since younger hobbyists are more likely to join through those games.

I've been behind the push to get more visibility for the club. A dedicated forum instead of Facebook group (due to security concerns), but having an Instagram page, more local signage, actually going to events.

As to making it a safer space... well, the club is pretty much the average. Old, white and male, with the attitudes that come with it. The two women we've had involved have been spouses, but were already interested in the hobby on their own initiative (one was an avid train model hobbyist). Although we've lost one with her husband with the pandemic.

I think the biggest problem to tackle will be "locker room talk" that needs to be called out more often when we're gaming.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 15:52:54


Post by: Cyel


I know a few women who enjoy wargaming. In my experience most usually don't see a point in competing in an abstract game for imaginary bragging rights.

I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 16:11:55


Post by: Xenomancers


Cyel wrote:
I know a few women who enjoy wargaming. In my experience most usually don't see a point in competing in an abstract game for imaginary bragging rights.

I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.


Yep - exactly.

The simple answer and I am sure it is the correct answer is most woman aren't interested in playing toy soldiers. Which is too bad because toy solider is lots of fun.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 16:41:23


Post by: Overread


 Xenomancers wrote:
Cyel wrote:
I know a few women who enjoy wargaming. In my experience most usually don't see a point in competing in an abstract game for imaginary bragging rights.

I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.


Yep - exactly.

The simple answer and I am sure it is the correct answer is most woman aren't interested in playing toy soldiers. Which is too bad because toy solider is lots of fun.



And yet there's no genetic/mental reason that women shouldn't like playing toy soldiers. It's perhaps something that, at young age, just isn't presented to them nor something they are encouraged to consider as a possible hobby or interest. Through no single entity or persons "fault" just through how things are. Which in turn can create older women who have no interest in such things and thus introduce the next generation of women ot things that they like and not to things that they don't.

This is perhaps the most difficult "barrier" to entry. It's not the attitude of club members; the attitude of the industry or the members or the club or a million other such things; its the actual basic upbringing and simple desire to take part in the first place.

Breaking past that is hard because you're trying to target a market group that, at the outset, isn't interested. Bending over backward to accommodate them is unlikely to work because they still won't likely be interested and changing things to appease a non-target market means your actual target market suffers (or potentially can suffer) as a result.



I think the key is to have continual marketing and outreach programs that perhaps focus on other aspects. Focusing on the painting, building, hobbying side of things, for example. You don't have to make every customer a gamer and many times you can lure them in with creative freedom; cool models. You can lure parents in with a skill building hobby that helps develop hand eye coordination; artistic skills; social interaction. Something as simply as a bi-monthly open to all commers painting session and tutorial. With a free model and such for new people; a few group paints and brushes for them to use etc... Make painting night a normal every week event, perhaps alongside gaming or separate from it.

Use posters, perhaps even post photos of different people doing stuff at the club and ensuring that they display a range of genders, ethnicities, ages etc... as suits the group.



The other thing is sustaining it. I've seen plenty of groups and such do a big splash welcome day; then do nothing for a year. You have to keep going even if you don't get anyone new for a few months. Sustained marketing works (to a degree) and has a greater chance of improving things than one-off marketing. Heck look at Kickstarter - those KS that do marketing once or twice and never again tend to fail, flounder or otherwise tick over only just; those that do constant run up marketing and heavy marketing during - that sustained and broad impact - often do far far better.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 17:01:37


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Xenomancers wrote:
Cyel wrote:


I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.


Yep - exactly.

The simple answer and I am sure it is the correct answer is most woman aren't interested in playing toy soldiers. Which is too bad because toy solider is lots of fun.



Just like women don't play computer games (well they do now).

And of course it is historically odd - Kriegspiel was popular in upper middle class drawing rooms with both sexes. Though as this paper notes that was possibly a reaction to Imperial attitudes and the normalisation of continuous military commitments overseas. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3787497?seq=1

Maybe that is a factor? Wargaming is a militaristic pastime and that often defaults to being of interest to men (as that is who is is marketed towards and is the primary recruiting field) in between periods of populations getting whipped up and all in line to support a war. Though the Imperial experience shows it can be marketed just as well to women.

And we are seeing a lot of shifts. Having so many women in games clubs now is very different to the 80s when the current wave of interest started to take off.

And on the gatekeeping. Yes I have seen that lots. Women getting obvious amounts of undue attention. Getting questioned more than a man (understandable, she is more of an oddity than a committed Tau player). Being treated in a different way. If you are self conscious in a new setting all of that is magnified.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another fun history piece about the original golden age of gaming... https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23337486.2019.1659626?scroll=top&needAccess=true


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 17:04:40


Post by: Easy E


From my experience with Networking groups and churches, the simplest thing is to have a "Welcome Group" who's sole job for the day is to talk to and interact with anyone new and make them feel welcome.

If this group rotates, then the next time a new person comes back; they meet more new people until pretty soon they know at least a half dozen folks every time they show up.

Of course, you need to get them in the door first!


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 17:37:08


Post by: Overread


 Easy E wrote:
From my experience with Networking groups and churches, the simplest thing is to have a "Welcome Group" who's sole job for the day is to talk to and interact with anyone new and make them feel welcome.

If this group rotates, then the next time a new person comes back; they meet more new people until pretty soon they know at least a half dozen folks every time they show up.

Of course, you need to get them in the door first!


Very true, but a welcome group or person (depending on group size) is a very good and simple idea. Sometimes just having someone who knows its their "job/duty" to perform the welcoming and help people get settled helps a lot. It gives them a clear direction and it gives the new person a clear first port of call to talk to about new questions. Even if the group as a whole is very friendly, its easy for a new person to get overlooked or feel adrift and not quite sure what's going on or who to talk to about things. Esp if the organiser (or those who appear to organise) is already running around doing other stuff.



I think when it comes to people "acting different around women" you're not really going to remove that save by introducing more women who do stick around. Clearly any group has to weed out the extremes of negative behaviour, but there's a whole lot of grey in the middle where its harder to just go in and "change attitudes".


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 17:52:14


Post by: Xenomancers


I had a nice lady walk up and start asking me questions about the 40k game I was playing. She was a Dnd player she told me.

I gave her a nice detailed description and she said she was interested in getting involved. That wasn't the first time something like that has happened while playing 40k. So some women are interested - it's just that most aren't.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 19:19:22


Post by: Irkjoe


This article frames the question as if it's the problem and the responsibility of "wargamers" that women aren't playing. It also goes out of it's way to make a point that they're mostly white so the particular type of dogma being pushed here is obvious.

I will risk saying that there are questions to be asked about the female gamer's motivations and how their presence changes the group dynamic; imo, at best, for her the game is just a pretext to get together and hang out not the main interest. That's fine but don't get upset when power gamer Timmy who just wants to get on with the game gets annoyed when gamer-girl doesn't know the rules or just wanders off from the table.

With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 19:24:38


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I know this sounds pretentious, but living in southern California I often forget just how pervasive and severe the racism/sexism is in a lot of this country. I read articles like this and it feels like looking back in time, except it isn't. It just makes me feel so deeply disappointed towards society.

Certainly the situation is improving, at least, and some areas do not struggle in the manner described. The adage 'you get what you pay for' comes to mind.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 19:27:42


Post by: Overread


 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.




What makes wargaming and miniature model hobbying different from DnD, Larping, Streaming, Video Gaming, shooting, football, wrestling, rugby, rowing, hiking, kayaking, kickboxing, judo, archery, gymnastics, swimming, running and billing other things?



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 19:29:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Irkjoe wrote:
This article frames the question as if it's the problem and the responsibility of "wargamers" that women aren't playing. It also goes out of it's way to make a point that they're mostly white so the particular type of dogma being pushed here is obvious.
With all due respect, this sounds like what racists say to dismiss people raising concerns about racism.

I will risk saying that there are questions to be asked about the female gamer's motivations and how their presence changes the group dynamic; imo, at best, for her the game is just a pretext to get together and hang out not the main interest. That's fine but don't get upset when power gamer Timmy who just wants to get on with the game gets annoyed when gamer-girl doesn't know the rules or just wanders off from the table.
You 'risk' making a number of explicitly sexist assumptions?

With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.
If they are confronted by misogyny we don't really know.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 19:31:54


Post by: AnomanderRake


 Overread wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.




What makes wargaming and miniature model hobbying different from DnD, Larping, Streaming, Video Gaming, shooting, football, wrestling, rugby, rowing, hiking, kayaking, kickboxing, judo, archery, gymnastics, swimming, running and billing other things?



Aggressively testosterone-fuelled marketing designed by people who aren't aware that anyone other than twelve-year-old boys exists?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 19:32:19


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time *snip*



You can literally use that line for any 'geeky' thing of the last 40 years. Look how many now assume women will be involved in whatever numbers compared to say the 80's. If you told me then I would walk into a board game meetup in London 30 years later and find more than half of the people there were female I would have scoffed. And if you peruse the papers linked above you see how women were involved in the Edwardian and Victorian era's where Kriegspiel and its ilk were seen as a sophisticated thing to do in your drawing room.

It is a issue not for us, assuming we can get opponents, but for companies that want to sell more. GW would love to flog toys to girls as well as boys as it grows their market. They I think go out of their way to try and employ more women because they have a ruthless desire to flog stuff to as many people as possible and hope that will assist them in their valiant sales efforts..


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/08 19:45:00


Post by: Irkjoe


Just some push back, relax.

@overread There's a big difference between consuming media, athletics, art, and more technical things. They aren't alike at all and I think differences in preference are a factor in male/female ratio in everything. You don't see many female engineers and physicists for the same reason you don't see female wargamers; maybe most women are interested in more practical things than spreadsheets, stats, and army lists. That's also why there seem to be many more on the hobby side of things imo.

@NinthMusketeer I don't think observable differences is any more of a sexist assumption than what you're pushing and all the lefty media articles in the world extrapolating their bad anecdotes onto every "white male" gamer to frame us all as sexist racist wargamers is evidence. You will get people doing this in literally every field and hobby, asserting that everything must be 50/50 or it's misogyny.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 02:28:30


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.




What makes wargaming and miniature model hobbying different from DnD, Larping, Streaming, Video Gaming, shooting, football, wrestling, rugby, rowing, hiking, kayaking, kickboxing, judo, archery, gymnastics, swimming, running and billing other things?



Aggressively testosterone-fuelled marketing designed by people who aren't aware that anyone other than twelve-year-old boys exists?


I think that's looking at it from the wrong end.

I reckon most of us had these interests instilled in us when we were young, by our parents, our teachers, our friends, our community... long before the wargame marketing ever came along. Change happens slowly because to shift the bell curve of interest levels it has to be done at that level, not the marketing department of some company who's just trying to figure out the best way to make money.

The marketing departments are just going after the people most likely to buy (and that's not to say there's people outside of that scope who would buy, but you market to the centre of the bell curve, not the edges of it).



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 04:32:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Interesting how quickly the article starts talking about "white guys".

So I guess we're not just misogynists, but white supremacists also.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 07:01:52


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Maybe the OP should have put up some kind of trigger warning because this has very quickly devolved into political rhetoric that is just paraphrasing a certain platform. I'll admit I could have phrased things better in my own post but still, it feels like some people are looking for an excuse to get offended and turn this into a rant against their perceived foes. Those straw men went up so fast they must have been ready-made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Interesting how quickly the article starts talking about "white guys".

So I guess we're not just misogynists, but white supremacists also.
You did not read the article.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 07:34:41


Post by: Cronch


Only the people who get unhealthily rosy cheeks when talking about their FOW Panzer Lehr or think that Imperium is right. Somehow chuds are drawn to the easiest points of entry.

But yeah, women weren't interested in RPGs until they were, women weren't into video games until they were....and in all those instances you have raving Old Boys just spout nonsense online how the femoids ruin their man cave's feng shui.
Change doesn't take long once the gatekeepers get broom to the head to behave.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 07:45:53


Post by: lord_blackfang


Women aren't super interested.

We're also in a hobby about endless war against anyone who's different. Let's not pretend this doesn't attract a far, far, far higher proportion of bigots than in the general population (crossref: the thread where poeple absolutely lost their gak over there being 2 women for every 3 men in the new Stormcast line)


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 07:49:28


Post by: Flinty


I like the idea of a welcome group. I tried out the local gaming group a few years ago, and while no one was actively rude, there was no attempt to engage with me so it felt rather unwelcoming. I had my pre arranged game and the guy was friendly, I tried going back the next week and he wasn’t there, so I was back to square one. I didn’t go back.

Im not shy as such, but everyone there was totally absorbed in their own little table groups making it hard to insinuate without butting in.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 08:12:50


Post by: kirotheavenger


I totally agree on the welcome group.
I've been to several board game groups that clearly already had their own group, were happy playing games amongst themselves, and made no attempt to engage newcomers.
So I never really got into any of them and ultimately stopped trying.

This is more difficult for wargames though, for boardgames it's easy to include a new person in a group, you play with half a dozen people at once and can get to know several people.
Whereas with a wargame that's less easy as it's only 1v1 normally and "just turn up" doesn't really work due to the need to provide an army.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 08:39:21


Post by: Overread


Way back at uni the game group there settled on a simple system. Whilst it was more boardgame than wargame focused, the setup was such that if you weren't playing a boardgame, or you were waiting for one to start you'd generally play Magic the Gathering with others. MTG being pretty fast "in general" compared to board games; and being very quick to setup and take apart.

It gave something to fill in the time between games or when you were waiting or if people were just seeing who turned up for the week and such.

Of course it could have its own issues and I think it worked well because we had a few good players and then a bunch of newbies and a few intermediates. So in general whilst you could end up beginner Vs pro (which was normally a forgone conclusion); you'd often get enough games against those of a similar skill. The skill spread worked well.


I think for wargames having some general short/fast games to muck around with can help. Perhaps Underworld or such. The idea being, again, its fairly easy and quick to setpu on a single table and you can get some gaming in whilst waiting for a big game to start up and such.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 08:45:30


Post by: kirotheavenger


I agree, one of the gaming groups I was in had a copy of Star Realms, although that was normally used for people who finished games early.
We had a Facebook group and made sure to include people in pre-arranged games that way.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 12:40:11


Post by: chaos0xomega


I always find it hilariously ironic browsing through these threads where people insist there isn't any sort of misogyny or gender issues in the community while also insisting that the reason there aren't more women is because women are somehow inherently uninterested.

Look in the fething mirrors guys, *you* are the problem. Its not that women aren't interested in playing with toy soldiers, its that women aren't interested in playing toy soldiers *with people like you*.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 12:54:36


Post by: kirotheavenger


It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:04:18


Post by: Overread


There are differences, the question is how many are the result of nature and how many are the result of nurture.


How many girls and women are not interested in Warhammer because of a fundamental difference in the structure of their mind and how they perceive the world; and how much of it is the result of how they were brought up. What they were introduced too, encouraged, discouraged, shown, presented and such.

That line is a very hard one to draw and its only now that we are starting to appreciate that some of the "nature" elements that were assumed innate within things (not just humans but animals too); are in fact the result of nurture and the environment they grow up in.





Yes there will be differences, but when I look at the world and I see men and women loving almost the same things to varying degrees, I get the idea that there is no magical natural barrier against wargames for women. Just as there's no barrier for men liking knitting.

Some of them are "artificial" barriers built up over time, some when we are super young and don't even remember being taught or learning them; some are subtle and not overtly taught and are the result of kids picking stuff up off those around us.



And as noted before, DnD and video games were both big areas that were once 100% male dominated. They were things that women would "never be interested in" and that girls weren't even presented or marketed too as things they could be interested in. Today we 100% know that both DnD and Videogames are just as interesting to girls and women as to boys and guys. Sure there are variations in what games both groups like; but even there we see plenty of guys playing the Sims and girls playing CoD etc...


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:14:08


Post by: kirotheavenger


I don't think it's an barrier per say at all.
But just like you can imagine a cinema showing Ironman 3 is likely to be disproportionately full of people who like Marvel, there's still doing to be DC fans in the theatre, just fewer.

It's just a question of how much it skews, but I think wargames will always skew fairly heavily to male dominated.
In the same way video games are equalising by stuff like CoD is still male dominated (albeit as you said women are still involved).


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:17:40


Post by: Cronch


 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.

They're interested in violent video games, they're interested in all other kinds of traditional gaming, they're even interested in miniature paiting, but they're specifically not interested in wargaming. That's some incredibly specific evoutionary adaptation!

Everyone is very busy avoiding the question:
Of those women that ARE interested in traditional games, WHY are they seemingly avoiding wargaming specifically. Is it biological fear of tiny toy soldiers?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:21:33


Post by: kirotheavenger


Cronch wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.

They're interested in violent video games, they're interested in all other kinds of traditional gaming, they're even interested in miniature paiting, but they're specifically not interested in wargaming. That's some incredibly specific evoutionary adaptation!

We don't see 50/50 representation in violent video games though.
Women are disproportionately more likely to enjoy non-violent videogames like Minecraft.
I think the point of departure is pretty clear, women are less interested in violence than men. Which is corroborated just about everywhere you look.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:32:34


Post by: Overread


Perhaps true and perhaps not true, its hard to say. Give it another 20 years and we might see a total reversal of the numbers. Change takes time and sometimes even when there are no barriers to entry, it still takes time for new generations to come along to fill the gap. Because those who are current generations already have other interests and focuses in their lives.

The women who might well be interested in CoD are simply doing something else with their time and life.

Give it more years and a continual lack of barriers and a greater amount of promotion and heck the numbers could equalise or even flip over.



~The key is to realise that what we see today isn't universal, its a simple snapshot in time. If we define things by today we get them wrong for tomorrow and yesterday.




In the distant past the sciences were "beyond women"*. There were no women in science barring one or two here and there; with the majority of women "not understanding such advanced things". The thinking was "alien" to a womens mind more suited to domestic tasks.
I hope I don't have to elaborate that changes in perception, education and the removal of barriers of entry has resulted in a modern society where women are no longer regarded as being incapable of science. Sure its not perfect, but even in the snapshot today we can see that the snapshot of the past was critically wrong at a fundamental level. It was perhaps correct that, at the time, the lack of the right kind of education meant that many women couldn't understand the sciences as they lacked the foundations in them.



*based on slightly extreme viewpoints here and no specific period/nation though I'm guessing something early Victorian or such perhaps or earlier or something.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:35:10


Post by: Cronch


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.

They're interested in violent video games, they're interested in all other kinds of traditional gaming, they're even interested in miniature paiting, but they're specifically not interested in wargaming. That's some incredibly specific evoutionary adaptation!

We don't see 50/50 representation in violent video games though.
Women are disproportionately more likely to enjoy non-violent videogames like Minecraft.
I think the point of departure is pretty clear, women are less interested in violence than men. Which is corroborated just about everywhere you look.

Even if you're right. Even if 5% of women will go for traditional hobbies unlike 10% men, why are they going for other forms of hobbies (boardgames, cards, rpgs) and specficially avoiding wargaming. Remember, those women already chose fictional violence as their entertainment, there is no global population bias, they're the "violent" outlier. And even that violent outlier avoids wargaming. why? Why only this one sub-type is shunned by women, even when figure painting isn't?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:39:51


Post by: Deadnight


Jadenim wrote:I think the most interesting point in that article is the win at all costs attitude that can be very common in war gaming, particularly in public locations, which can be very off putting to new comers and people with a more casual interest, regardless of race, gender, etc. (but ads yet another barrier for those in a minority in the hobby). It also links to Kirotheavengers point; if you get brought into the hobby as a group activity with existing friends, you’ll see less of that issue.


That was my take away as well. Also of note is that the 'social dynamics' are a big part of what gets girls/women interested and involved and will make them want to stay.

My wife played rugby for years and every year they'd have loads of fresh faces join up, only to quickly evaporate. The beat way to keep them interested was to build relationships with them. I dont mean dating them(but to be fair, thst happens too). I mean building peer relationships and friendships. If they were friends with the girls on the team, if they would open them to the social/party side of the club, they were far more likely to stick around and not let 'their friends' down. Even for individual/solo sports like running, most girls I know don't train solo, they run and train with a team - the social dynamics will always be there. The other thing I learned is if you have girls in your group, you are more likely to get other girls to join. Sisterhood is a thing and I sure as hell have nothing bad to say about it.

You tend to see 'better' social dynamics in board games and rpg's and its not necessarily due to the cooperative or collaborative nature being pushed more heavily, but it is certainly a part of it- and I don't think it's much of a mystery why this then draws more female gamers than wargames. Us wargamers are a hyper intensive and obsessive lot and often solo-gamers. Look at the push back, often from those that lean towards the win at all costs or competitive at all costs spectrum when this is brought up. There is a strong sense, especially online where each person is an island, and each opponent is essentially an npc. Disposable pick up game culture. Effectively 'one night stands' of gaming. when someone proposes investing in, or developing their community and accommodating the other guy/person or that the social aspect is more important, you can almost hear the pile on coming. This I can imagine is very unattractive. Basically, to me at least, the biggest road block isn't so much a competitive game aspect in wargaming (girls are competitive too!), its often a lack of, and sometimes hostility towards social dynamics and peer-relationship building in favour of disposable npc opponents and lack of investment in their community.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:45:10


Post by: kirotheavenger


Why is the one hobby sub-type 'WARgame' shunned by women? Why do they gravitate instead to stuff like DnD or boardgames, which focus on things other than the WAR?

Because women are less interested in violence, and so are less interested the more central violence comes to the game.

I don't think Minecraft is equally violent to 40k at all, not all games have the same focus, even if they all contain some measure of violence.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:48:01


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.


Well the data is what? Women enjoy marvel films as much as men, they never used to buy comics in the 70's and 80's like boys did. What data changed there? Is this data a snapshot of now? Or does it demonstrate trends?

I mean, what are women doing voting? Everyone knew that was a something men should do. The anti suffrage movement was led and dominated by women. They were best placed to understand that women weren't suited to those sorts of decisions and thinking. And yet despite it being something with minority support amongst women we passed a law including them in the franchise and something utterly weird happened and loads vote now.

And why aren't men wearing makeup? In the glory days at court and in important social affairs men loved getting made up. Why do women think just they should wear make up now, bring back men in powdered wigs! I know some people think it isn't something men do, but the data for the majority of human civilisation seems to support them wearing it.

As the academic papers linked above point out, when Britain and Europe were more militarised pre WW1, well to do men and women were encouraged to play games like Kriegspiele. What changed? (Well in this case we know what changed - WW1 was hell and people got cool to the idea of playing with war and glorifying it in the same way they had a decade ago - there was still a requirement for boys to soldier but the wider militaristic ethos died off when peoples sons and husbands did. And of course we realised despite the high level of volunteers we were fine with conscription ultimately).


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:49:10


Post by: Cronch


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why is the one hobby sub-type 'WARgame' shunned by women? Why do they gravitate instead to stuff like DnD or boardgames, which focus on things other than the WAR?

Because women are less interested in violence, and so are less interested the more central violence comes to the game.

I don't think Minecraft is equally violent to 40k at all, not all games have the same focus, even if they all contain some measure of violence.

Malifaux is a wargame. It has (seemingly!) the largest % of female gamers of all popular wargames. It's 100% about violence.
Hell, there's plenty of boardgames that are all about war. There's the entirety of CCG scene which is all about smashing your opponent into ground, there's no cooperative or social aspect to a Magic match.

But yeah, women just don't like violence. The attitudes straight from Stepford sure aren't part of the issue, it's Just Biology.

This whole thread reminds me of
https://twitter.com/LisaMcCray/status/1401597106822029314?s=19 for some reason.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:54:26


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why is the one hobby sub-type 'WARgame' shunned by women? Why do they gravitate instead to stuff like DnD or boardgames, which focus on things other than the WAR?

Because women are less interested in violence, and so are less interested the more central violence comes to the game.


I think you are missing peoples challenges to your statements. They are happy to say for the sake of argument there is a split of say 90/10 or 95/05 or whatever when it comes to women who like violence. They are then challenging you that of those girls that like violent pursuits - Gears of War on the computer, rpgs with heavy amounts of fighting, boardgames where you conquer the world, boxing in the real world, etc - why they are appearing in every formally male dominated for the latter half of the 20th century sub group in significant numbers, bar wargaming?

Wargaming isn't more violent or competitive than other options. They are painting model so already doing better than me. But the actual toys on the table game? Why only this.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 13:59:39


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think the portrayal of 40k is definitely different to MtG.
MtG's tagline appears to be "outwit, outplay, overpower", for 40k it's "in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war".

Are these more warlike boardgames more popular with women, or less popular? Because in my experience women engage more with the more passive games like Catan or Pandemic.
The very heavily warlike stuff tends to draw more of the sausage fest typical of wargames.

You'll also notice I never said women don't like violence, I said they're less interested in it.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 14:38:48


Post by: infinite_array


The_Real_Chris wrote:
As the academic papers linked above point out, when Britain and Europe were more militarised pre WW1, well to do men and women were encouraged to play games like Kriegspiele. What changed? (Well in this case we know what changed - WW1 was hell and people got cool to the idea of playing with war and glorifying it in the same way they had a decade ago - there was still a requirement for boys to soldier but the wider militaristic ethos died off when peoples sons and husbands did. And of course we realised despite the high level of volunteers we were fine with conscription ultimately).


I recently finished "A Game of Birds and Wolves," which details the use of Wrens (the Women's Royal Naval Service) during WW2 to wargame anti-submarine tactics when the British were on the losing side of the Battle of the Atlantic. And from the records and from the remaining women's testimony, they absolutely loved it. Not only that, but they were absolute aces when it came to wargaming. They regularly schooled actual naval officers who came in to train and ended up teaching the correct anti-sub tactics that would eventually see Britain control the waters again.

I've never understood the "women don't like violence" explanation for male-dominated wargaming, even it it was true. We're moving toys on the table and rolling dice. It's utterly bloodless. It's not like in order to win a combat I would actually need to square off against an opponent. I'm not getting blood splashed on me or getting cuts to simulate damage. We're not uncorking vials that smell like piss and gak for us to waft under ours noses to simulate the aftermath of battles.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 14:41:24


Post by: Easy E


I have a focus group of two in my household. Here is what they tell me about the subject.....

1. My daughter likes wargames, but has been playing them since she was 7. She typically does not want to get involved playing outside the home/our small group because she does not want to deal with people she does not know for a game. She is a bit of a lazy gamer in the fact that she is eager to play, but doesn't want to do much other than play.

My wife feels that the social skills of many of the players she has come across are lacking for a variety of reasons. Again, she would rather stick to our small group. She is slightly more engaged and enjoys painting models and maybe a bit of fluff about her stuff.

2. Lack of models that are representative of the type of games they want to play. This was more my wife, who wants to play female models in female warbands, or mixed company groups. Most of my Historical games do not do that so they are less interested in going beyond the game. If I do all the leg work, they will play.

Oddly, they love the Burrows and Badgers stuff and also like playing Orks in various settings? However, when painting the wife prefers to paint ladies, while my daughter prefers not to paint minis at all despite being a painter in acrylics/digital herself.

For some reason though, they were not interested in Frostgrave using the Female warriors/wizards models thought. I still have not cracked the code on that one!

3. Barrier of Knowledge to Entry. Neither of them want to dig super deep into very complex or detailed rules. They want to keep it light, play a game and move on with their lives. They are not looking for much more than a bit of entertainment with family and friends. The social side of things matter.

This holds true with card games, board games, and wargames. They will play, but do not want to read the actual rules to learn how. They prefer to be taught or guided at first by a mentor, and then go it alone.

4. Wargames (typically) only offer one solution to an issue, where RPGs offer many more. The wargame solution is violence. Sometimes, they want their folks to do other stuff and appreciate games that can accommodate Co-op and RPG lite much more than strict VS. games.

They also prefer games with strong, easily recognizable themes/gimmicks. For example, they prefer a game like Burrows and Badgers or Blood Bowl over something like DBA or Warhammer Ancients.

5. They prefer smaller games where each model matters more. The mass battle games and unit vs unit skirmish games are less interesting to them than model vs model skirmish. They did not really articulate why though as it is not like they create elaborate stories, goals, or have particular favorites in their skirmish models.


That was two females in my household who play wargames. This is their opinions interpreted by me. They are not representative of all players or people. Some of these may be reflections of my own views or my small groups views on gaming, since they are part of that group. Plus, I may have misunderstood or misrepresented some of their feelings but I did my best to put them down here for posterity and discussion.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 15:24:22


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 infinite_array wrote:
I recently finished "A Game of Birds and Wolves," which details the use of Wrens (the Women's Royal Naval Service) during WW2 to wargame anti-submarine tactics when the British were on the losing side of the Battle of the Atlantic.


Amusingly DSTL staged a reenactment in Liverpool recently

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/women-winning-battles-recreating-the-wrens-unit-which-helped-win-the-war


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 15:32:37


Post by: infinite_array


Very cool! Although it's a shame that there doesn't seem to be any pictures.

Also, it looks like there's going to be a film based on the book? I wonder if we'll see an uptick in women interested in wargaming if it does well.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 15:45:12


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Ah the pictures were on the original article I saw, sadly the .gov site didn't pick up on any of them and I couldn't find it anywhere else.

Edit - found it.

https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2018/09/08/watu-wargame-report/


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 15:47:24


Post by: infinite_array


Ha, I knew I should have dug a little deeper on Paxsims. I thought I had found a link to the article but it was broken.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 16:15:56


Post by: chaos0xomega


 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.


Keep proving my point for me, champ!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.

They're interested in violent video games, they're interested in all other kinds of traditional gaming, they're even interested in miniature paiting, but they're specifically not interested in wargaming. That's some incredibly specific evoutionary adaptation!

We don't see 50/50 representation in violent video games though.
Women are disproportionately more likely to enjoy non-violent videogames like Minecraft.
I think the point of departure is pretty clear, women are less interested in violence than men. Which is corroborated just about everywhere you look.


At this point in my life I know more women in their late 20s and mid 30s who enjoy playing Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fortnite, etc. than I do men playing those same games, so color me doubtful that there is any validity to your claims.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why is the one hobby sub-type 'WARgame' shunned by women? Why do they gravitate instead to stuff like DnD or boardgames, which focus on things other than the WAR?

Because women are less interested in violence, and so are less interested the more central violence comes to the game.

I don't think Minecraft is equally violent to 40k at all, not all games have the same focus, even if they all contain some measure of violence.


Thats a nice sentiment but it could just be that wargames are and have been the most conservative and impenetrable "old boys club" of the nerdy communities, as well as being the smallest and least visible. In that case it becomes pretty self explanatory why women are increasingly visible in other communities.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 16:45:27


Post by: Cronch


"Why are women less represented in wargaming"

I'm obviously not saying no woman ever enjoys competitive sports, but generalising; women are less interested in that than men.

is literally all you need to known to answer the question.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 19:13:11


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I think people confuse the IRL trend of men being more likely to engage in violence with interest in a game that is violent. It is the same line of thinking for the old 'video games cause violence' uproar that has thankfully died down at this point. It also assumes that IRL men are more likely to be violent mainly because of an inherent interest in violence, which is not accurate either.

And fyi for some people; if you bring up the 50/50 argument anyone sensible will immediately disregard you. It is basically putting up a scarecrow with a sign 'I do not have a legitimate argument'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
"Why are women less represented in wargaming"

I'm obviously not saying no woman ever enjoys competitive sports, but generalising; women are less interested in that than men.

is literally all you need to known to answer the question.
Only for people that wish to artifically restrict themselves to a level of thought so simplistic it cannot manage nuance. No one is actually so dumb as to be incapable of that, which leaves the question of why bother engaging the topic at all?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 19:21:16


Post by: the_scotsman


 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.




What makes wargaming and miniature model hobbying different from DnD, Larping, Streaming, Video Gaming, shooting, football, wrestling, rugby, rowing, hiking, kayaking, kickboxing, judo, archery, gymnastics, swimming, running and billing other things?



Aggressively testosterone-fuelled marketing designed by people who aren't aware that anyone other than twelve-year-old boys exists?


Right, as opposed to wrestling, video gaming, football and shooting, which are all advertised extremely gender-neutrally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
"Why are women less represented in wargaming"

I'm obviously not saying no woman ever enjoys competitive sports, but generalising; women are less interested in that than men.

is literally all you need to known to answer the question.


Only if you don't finish the question ".....than they are in other, traditionally male-dominated hobbies that have been seeing more and more women taking part?"


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 20:55:35


Post by: Easy E


I mean, if we see women in MMA, I don't think it is the violence of imagining little toy men shooting at each other that is turning them off.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 22:05:35


Post by: Overread


I'm still trying to see 40K or AoS as being highly violent. I mean sure its a wargame, but really you're spending ages building, painting and getting your models ready for the tabletop; at which point they engage in battle akin to chess pieces.

You move them around, you roll dice, you make pew pew sounds and boom and things "die" by being taken off the table.



Sure if you want you can play out the scene in words with detail; or you can write stories/blogs about it or whatever. But in general terms there's nothing violent. Heck at most games you'll shake your opponent's hand at the end and say thanks for the game and such.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 22:16:37


Post by: kirotheavenger


The violence in 40k is more than just pushing toys around.
I don't think any 40k player will tell you they're just pushing toys around.

If you go to GW's shop, the headline describing 40k is "in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war". Thats a pretty well known quote in the hobby and I think its fairly representative as well.

As I pointed out earlier, its very different to how Magic advertises itself for example.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 22:22:48


Post by: Overread


 kirotheavenger wrote:
The violence in 40k is more than just pushing toys around.
I don't think any 40k player will tell you they're just pushing toys around.

If you go to GW's shop, the headline describing 40k is Thats a pretty well known quote in the hobby and I think its fairly representative as well.

As I pointed out earlier, its very different to how Magic advertises itself for example.



Whilst I get what you mean I think you're going to have to elaborate your point here.
Right now you're basically saying its super violent because "in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war"
And because gamers will go "hey cool I blew your tank up"


Which you can get from playing Battleships. "You sunk by Battleship"


One is represented by a peg on a board, the other is represented by a 32mm space marine on a table.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/09 22:27:54


Post by: Argive


I don't know why my fiancée would not want to buy roman legionaries from warlord for Hail Caesar. Its interesting. All she'd have to do is go online order them, pain them and then look for an opponent on our local group.

I do know though, that she would rather pay a £200 for a facial beauty mumbo jumbo treatment that may or may not work(which I think is a waste of money), than buy piety and pain from GW and some paints.

I also know she plays sudoku on her phone but absolutely detests traditional PC or console computer games.
But for all intents and purposes this would make her a gamer for the gamer demographic statistic...

My initial thought is that this may well be a product of a generational thing.

I suppose if the new generations are being educated from an early age in way that encourages girls to participate in what traditionally were male past times, and rewarding them for participation you'd well see a demographic shift in a couple of decades. Perhaps ? Who knows. Maybe there will be some unpredictable side effects like mental health issues being more common/ Or maybe less common? Maybe overall happiness will increase or decrease? Not sure I want to experiment with my kids future personally. They can choose what they want to do, and I will support them if its within my means and allows them to find purpose.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 05:35:07


Post by: Vulcan


It's always amusing to see the extremists on both sides go at it hammer and tongs, however politely.

Both sides have a point... but neither are 100% correct either.

Yes, the hobby skews heavily toward white men. That can't be argued. There are groups of wargamers who are going to be... shall we say, too friendly? to women seeking to join the hobby and come off creepy. Be that due to being outright creepy, or due to mere social awkwardness, it is a fact. This cannot be argued. There are also are going to be some individuals and even groups who ARE going to be hostile to outsiders, especially ones who are not white men. This also cannot be argued.

But arguing that therefore ALL groups of white men are hostile in various ways to outsiders, especially those who are not white men, is EVERY BIT AS RACIST AND SEXIST. This concept of inherent racism and sexism in white men CAN be argued every bit as vigorously as the concept of women being completely uninterested in wargames.

Can we, as wargamers, do better at attracting and keeping non-white, non-male participants? Of course we can. But not all of us are awkward geeks, leering letches, or racist misogynist jerks either, not by a long shot.

On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested - LESS interested, as opposed to NOT interested - in violent movies, violent stories, and yes, violent games. Minorities likewise have less interest in subjects that skew heavily white, in part due to racist encounters as mentioned above, and in part to having other things to deal with that are just a wee bit more important to their lives. Income differences pay a big part here; wargaming does tend to be a bit pricey to get into.

So the struggle to get more women and minorities involved in our hobby does go beyond merely being more welcoming to them once they reach the game store or game club. There are other, more systemic issues that need addressing as well to allow them the time and resources to participate more.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 07:24:05


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Vulcan wrote:
It's always amusing to see the extremists on both sides go at it hammer and tongs, however politely.

Both sides have a point... but neither are 100% correct either.

Yes, the hobby skews heavily toward white men. That can't be argued. There are groups of wargamers who are going to be... shall we say, too friendly? to women seeking to join the hobby and come off creepy. Be that due to being outright creepy, or due to mere social awkwardness, it is a fact. This cannot be argued. There are also are going to be some individuals and even groups who ARE going to be hostile to outsiders, especially ones who are not white men. This also cannot be argued.

But arguing that therefore ALL groups of white men are hostile in various ways to outsiders, especially those who are not white men, is EVERY BIT AS RACIST AND SEXIST. This concept of inherent racism and sexism in white men CAN be argued every bit as vigorously as the concept of women being completely uninterested in wargames.

Can we, as wargamers, do better at attracting and keeping non-white, non-male participants? Of course we can. But not all of us are awkward geeks, leering letches, or racist misogynist jerks either, not by a long shot.

On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested - LESS interested, as opposed to NOT interested - in violent movies, violent stories, and yes, violent games. Minorities likewise have less interest in subjects that skew heavily white, in part due to racist encounters as mentioned above, and in part to having other things to deal with that are just a wee bit more important to their lives. Income differences pay a big part here; wargaming does tend to be a bit pricey to get into.

So the struggle to get more women and minorities involved in our hobby does go beyond merely being more welcoming to them once they reach the game store or game club. There are other, more systemic issues that need addressing as well to allow them the time and resources to participate more.

I agree with this completely.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 07:45:40


Post by: Cronch



On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested

We're not talking about why Jane Q, whose hobbies include baking pies and reading romance novels isn't interested in wargaming, we're talking about why Jill Q, whose hobbies include building net decks and smashing people with them at the LGS isn't interested in wargaming.

So far the leading theory is that the word WAR is a female repellent, like holy water against vampires.

Honestly, I think it's for the better at this point.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 07:52:44


Post by: Cyel


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It also assumes that IRL men are more likely to be violent mainly because of an inherent interest in violence, which is not accurate either.


What is your argument for this claim?

I'd say it is quite accurate that males are geared towards violence, conflict and competition. Mammal males fight for rank and access to females, whether it's a pride of lions or a herd of mountain goats. Males flex muscles, show off their resources and dominance. Females avoid that - it's too costly and risky. They are going to get a chance at reproduction anyway, while males have to prove their worth over other males.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150811-do-animals-fight-wars

These (and other) instincts in humans may have been watered down (or rather painted over) by civilisation and culture but I think it is hard to deny they are there, to surface the moment they are allowed to by circumstances.

Add to it the fact that neuropsychology gets quite a lot evidence for many of our decisions and choices being made subconsciously and driven by instincts and hidden urges and the intelligent and conscious part of us is apparently there to come up with excuses and justifications post-factum, should someone challenge us (or should we challenge ourselves in our heads).
https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2011.227

And sure, there are outliers. In a 7billion species they are bound to be. But for proper science look at statistics, not anecdotes.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 07:57:40


Post by: Cronch


Oh look, and now we have gakky behavior apology turn up in the shape of bUt MaLeS aRE AgReSSiVe cUz BiOLoGy!

As I said, it's for the best that so few women decide to be exposed to the time capsule of the 1860s that wargaming is...


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 08:14:20


Post by: kirotheavenger


Cronch wrote:

So far the leading theory is that the word WAR is a female repellent, like holy water against vampires.

Your hyperbole is not productive to the discussion, no one has claimed such.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 08:21:05


Post by: Cyel


Cronch wrote:
Oh look, and now we have gakky behavior apology turn up in the shape of bUt MaLeS aRE AgReSSiVe cUz BiOLoGy!


Whaaa? Where did you get it???

It doesn't explain rude behaviour. It explains interest in competing in a fake war with toy soldiers (or lack thereof).



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 08:25:35


Post by: Overread


Violence of different genders species to species varies a lot depending on the species. There are females in mammalian species that will hold their own territories and will kill any female or male that invades them. They'll only tolerate a male for breeding and then he's got to get out quick before she tries to kill him. I forget which species, but one of the weasel family of animals (mustlids) has that very behaviour pattern in captivity* and when captive breeding is done with them now the male has to have an escape hole to flee down.





Or what about the classic example of how in lion prides, male lions do less active hunting than the females in general.

It's actually interesting to note that in many herd groups, whilst the males "fight for dominance"** or resources; the lead females often have a greater influence on herd position.


There's also plenty of species that operate in small or loan social groups. Bears, for example, raise their young alone without a male being around. Those females thus directly competing with territories and resources with females and males.

*captivity can exacerbate some violent behaviours

** fighting is often a last resort. Posturing and competing are more common. Animals don't really want to fight if they can help it. Even Deer in a rutt will more likely bellow and strut and do some connected pushing to show strength


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 08:29:05


Post by: Cyel


Yes, of course. I guess my point was that posturing/competing/asserting dominance and violence associated with these activities are more similar to wargaming culture than, say hunting or protecting cubs.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 08:36:50


Post by: Overread


No more or less than any other social interaction and perhaps a lot less than most competitive sports I'd say. Why can women compete on the hockey pitch but not the boardgame? Especially when wargames tend to attract a greater portion of less socially dominant/confident personalities anyway?

Again we hit the problem that wargames are not that different from a vast number of other hobbies that women do take part in every day. They compete, they asset dominance* etc...



Again we seem to have an undercurrent in this thread that somehow wargames are more violent and warlike than, well, than anything else. And yet my direct real world experience is that they are highly non violent, far more social and creative.


*I should note that the popular "wolf alpha" book that popularised the idea of group dominance was refuted years later by the same author. Dominance is a sort of human concept and even then its more extreme. Especially within humans where our behaviour and social position can change significantly depending on our surroundings; you might be bottom in the pub; top in the gameclub, equal with your wife and just the child to your parents.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 08:45:56


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Vulcan wrote:
It's always amusing to see the extremists on both sides go at it hammer and tongs, however politely.

Both sides have a point... but neither are 100% correct either.

Yes, the hobby skews heavily toward white men. That can't be argued. There are groups of wargamers who are going to be... shall we say, too friendly? to women seeking to join the hobby and come off creepy. Be that due to being outright creepy, or due to mere social awkwardness, it is a fact. This cannot be argued. There are also are going to be some individuals and even groups who ARE going to be hostile to outsiders, especially ones who are not white men. This also cannot be argued.

But arguing that therefore ALL groups of white men are hostile in various ways to outsiders, especially those who are not white men, is EVERY BIT AS RACIST AND SEXIST. This concept of inherent racism and sexism in white men CAN be argued every bit as vigorously as the concept of women being completely uninterested in wargames.

Can we, as wargamers, do better at attracting and keeping non-white, non-male participants? Of course we can. But not all of us are awkward geeks, leering letches, or racist misogynist jerks either, not by a long shot.

On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested - LESS interested, as opposed to NOT interested - in violent movies, violent stories, and yes, violent games. Minorities likewise have less interest in subjects that skew heavily white, in part due to racist encounters as mentioned above, and in part to having other things to deal with that are just a wee bit more important to their lives. Income differences pay a big part here; wargaming does tend to be a bit pricey to get into.

So the struggle to get more women and minorities involved in our hobby does go beyond merely being more welcoming to them once they reach the game store or game club. There are other, more systemic issues that need addressing as well to allow them the time and resources to participate more.
I'm going to need you to strip this of nuance and present it as a series of points which are 100% good or 100% bad, lest I be forced to report it off topic


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 10:33:08


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


wargaming as a hobby may appeal more to men than women as its got a lot of stuff to collect, learn about, horde and itemise (all those minis, terrain, paint etc)

this behaviour is seen most extremely in those on the asbergers (and autistic) scale where men outnumber women by a significant margin, and both conditions are thought to be the extreme edge of male brain development

i'll also speculate that the sheer amount of stuff involved in wargaming (compared to boardgaming for example) may also put off women who, anecdotally at least, seem fare less tolerant of 'mess'. Most boardgames can be put back in the box when not in use and put away tidily, putting away a all the minis, terrain and game boards is far trickier and takes a lot more space
(i'd love to know what the sex ratio is on those who clamour for one huge box to put everying in on boardgaming KS compare to that of the whole project and to the active commentator pool)


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 11:54:44


Post by: Cronch


https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/gender-bias-autism
Early research of most mental disorders used men as patients, and as such the diagnostic tools are designed to find autism in men best. And so,the idea that only men get autism continues to be perpetuated.
It' the same with ADHD, where women and girls with ADHD usually go much longer undiagnosed and untreated because their symptoms aren't at the deep end of the spectrum.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 12:14:31


Post by: Herzlos


Cronch wrote:

Malifaux is a wargame. It has (seemingly!) the largest % of female gamers of all popular wargames. It's 100% about violence.


Malifaux is probably the least violent wargame, and possibly pushes a bit towards being a card game.
It's all objective driven so it's possible to win without 'killing' any of your enemies characters.
It's very thematic with lots of story, whimsy and strategy, but it's not that violent even though the characters are, if that makes sense.

Compare that to any other game, which even if it does have objectives they are usually more violent.


Back on the topic, my wife likes games (she bought into and entered a Flames Of War tournament) and painting minis. She doesn't like going into GW stores and was put off from playing FoW in the games club because of the other players being a bit odd and borderline creepy.
Even as a guy I don't find most gaming clubs particularly inviting; I've been to a few on my own and just sort of loitered around a bit and then left unengaged, but I think the UK culture is that the clubs are more of a dedicated space to playing pre-arranged games and whilst there's 50 players in there it's almost 25 separate islands sharing a room.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 12:36:52


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Cronch wrote:
As I said, it's for the best that so few women decide to be exposed to the time capsule of the 1860s that wargaming is...


As I referenced above in the two academic papers women were more engaged with wargaming back then in Europe as part of the general militarism in society and continuous colonial wars.

For everyone tempted to wax lyrical about why women are less violent, better looking, and more multitasking than men, please stop and first answer the question put to you multiple times.

For those women just as bloodthirsty as your average 40k player, delighting in chopping people up in Gears of War, kicking kittens whenever they spot them and laughing manically when their druid sacrifices a young child in D&D (I admit I just play wargames, what other stuff people do hobby wise is a mystery to me, though if D&D doesn't do that I call shenanigans), what stops them playing wargames. They play many games like this, ones we tend to play as well, what is stopping them in this niche area, especially given the counter pre-war historical example when they did?



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 13:13:28


Post by: kirotheavenger


I haven't answered it because it's a stupid question.
There's plenty of men that delight in all those things that don't also play wargames.
So there's nothing that needs answered.

Besides, we've already acknowledged that other factors also exist, such as wargaming presenting an all-boys club image with a lot of socially awkward and/or creepy individuals.

The point is that a lower interest is also a factor.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 14:24:27


Post by: LunarSol


In my experience, the main draw to Malifaux is representation. Malifaux has a very diverse cast of female heroes cast as the heroes of the setting and really always has. Of the original 12 masters, 7 were female and I'm pretty sure its currently an even split at 27 masters a piece.

Representation matters a lot. Whether we like it or not, and particularly when we're children, we look to people like us to figure out our place in the world, and as an extension, what our place in a fictional setting is. When there's no material that shows characters like us, or worse, shows us our place in the world is strictly as victims, villains or similar, it's a lot harder to see it as a place we belong.

One of the worst side effects of this is the tendency to turn this into a self fulfilling prophecy. Videogames didn't start as a male dominated market, but over time as it was marketed more to young boys a lot of the female and generic protagonists and cartoon violence was dropped in favor of things that presented a male power fantasy and objectified women. You can hardly be surprised at the lack of interest from women in your games when you've hit Duke Nukem levels.

The final step of this is the old boys club. You get the people with closed minded attitudes; likely fear as much as anything, that see this thing targeted to them, where they feel safe from cooties and make it their bastion. It does not take much to send the message that "you are not wanted here" and that's doubly true when the game itself makes little effort to say otherwise.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 15:04:11


Post by: Herzlos


Representation is a good point r.e. Malifaux, and I think a big reason some people get into it. My wife has a few of the Malifaux crews to paint.

For women and POC, etc, then there's minimal representation in say, American Civil War or Napoleonic games.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 15:08:30


Post by: The_Grim_Angel


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming?

https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/

"A combination of a high barrier to entry and outdated, misogynistic attitudes keep women out of a hobby where they could thrive."

Do you think this article aims at 'traditional' wargamers in terms of the discussed demographic (it is also the one that gets professional interest as they use that group to recruit to professional wargaming roles)? Though the barrier to entry is presumably the same for both men and women, unless women in the west have lower disposable incomes at the 'GW recruitment' age?


If there was a certainty about my local game store, is exactly the opposite: we would have done everything to have more female players! My experience is quite the opposite: the girls think to be a strategy and/or roleplay gamer is to be a nerd/loser, so they kept themselves away from the game stores. The things are changed when it started the trend of the cosplay, but only because the girls are more interested in the fancy costumes, than in the games.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 15:09:21


Post by: Herzlos


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Though the barrier to entry is presumably the same for both men and women, unless women in the west have lower disposable incomes at the 'GW recruitment' age?


I wonder if the barrier to entry is more about priorities than income disparity?

For example, are men more likely to want to spend £95 on a toy than women?
At the risk of stereotyping, my wife spends an awful lot more on hair care, cosmetics and clothing than I do (because I'm a beardy grognard and she cares about her appearance), so she'd have less money in the pot for frivolities even with the same income.


I also wonder if the interest in war is more skewed towards people in countries who are generally regarded as the successors/bullies and have never really been occupied. We (predominantly US/UK) have been subjected to all the war movies and glory without really experiencing the horrors. But does the same apply to people from cultures where war has been devastating like Japan?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 15:26:13


Post by: The_Grim_Angel


Herzlos wrote:
[…]
I also wonder if the interest in war is more skewed towards people in countries who are generally regarded as the successors/bullies and have never really been occupied. We (predominantly US/UK) have been subjected to all the war movies and glory without really experiencing the horrors. But does the same apply to people from cultures where war has been devastating like Japan?

I'm Italian and I can say you are wrong: the interest about the various kind of war games (videogames, 3D games, softair…) is pretty strong here, so I wouldn't say it is related to have a recent tradition of victorious wars.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 15:31:23


Post by: Laughing Man


The_Grim_Angel wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming?

https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/

"A combination of a high barrier to entry and outdated, misogynistic attitudes keep women out of a hobby where they could thrive."

Do you think this article aims at 'traditional' wargamers in terms of the discussed demographic (it is also the one that gets professional interest as they use that group to recruit to professional wargaming roles)? Though the barrier to entry is presumably the same for both men and women, unless women in the west have lower disposable incomes at the 'GW recruitment' age?


If there was a certainty about my local game store, is exactly the opposite: we would have done everything to have more female players! My experience is quite the opposite: the girls think to be a strategy and/or roleplay gamer is to be a nerd/loser, so they kept themselves away from the game stores. The things are changed when it started the trend of the cosplay, but only because the girls are more interested in the fancy costumes, than in the games.

How is this different than how your average male views strategy and/or roleplay gamers?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 15:38:29


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Cronch wrote:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/takeaway/segments/gender-bias-autism
Early research of most mental disorders used men as patients, and as such the diagnostic tools are designed to find autism in men best. And so,the idea that only men get autism continues to be perpetuated.
It' the same with ADHD, where women and girls with ADHD usually go much longer undiagnosed and untreated because their symptoms aren't at the deep end of the spectrum.


That may be right although I'm not convinced (and I certainly didn't say or intend to imply only men are autistic or suffer from asbergers, only that both are more prevalent)

but i'd say if men are more often at the deep end of a spectrum disorder which (as opposed to one where you have it or not) that shows exactly what i'm referring to, hobbies that have aspects that mesh well with these will tend to have a degree of bias towards male participants as they'll find it a more comfortable place to be


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 15:44:30


Post by: The_Grim_Angel


 Laughing Man wrote:
The_Grim_Angel wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming?

https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/

"A combination of a high barrier to entry and outdated, misogynistic attitudes keep women out of a hobby where they could thrive."

Do you think this article aims at 'traditional' wargamers in terms of the discussed demographic (it is also the one that gets professional interest as they use that group to recruit to professional wargaming roles)? Though the barrier to entry is presumably the same for both men and women, unless women in the west have lower disposable incomes at the 'GW recruitment' age?


If there was a certainty about my local game store, is exactly the opposite: we would have done everything to have more female players! My experience is quite the opposite: the girls think to be a strategy and/or roleplay gamer is to be a nerd/loser, so they kept themselves away from the game stores. The things are changed when it started the trend of the cosplay, but only because the girls are more interested in the fancy costumes, than in the games.

How is this different than how your average male views strategy and/or roleplay gamers?

Let's say it is a matter of percentage: the 95% the females and the 70% males saw the gamers like a bunch of loser/nerd. Now the things are changed, but thank to the cosplay, not to a real interest in the games.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 16:33:56


Post by: Laughing Man


The_Grim_Angel wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
The_Grim_Angel wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming?

https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/

"A combination of a high barrier to entry and outdated, misogynistic attitudes keep women out of a hobby where they could thrive."

Do you think this article aims at 'traditional' wargamers in terms of the discussed demographic (it is also the one that gets professional interest as they use that group to recruit to professional wargaming roles)? Though the barrier to entry is presumably the same for both men and women, unless women in the west have lower disposable incomes at the 'GW recruitment' age?


If there was a certainty about my local game store, is exactly the opposite: we would have done everything to have more female players! My experience is quite the opposite: the girls think to be a strategy and/or roleplay gamer is to be a nerd/loser, so they kept themselves away from the game stores. The things are changed when it started the trend of the cosplay, but only because the girls are more interested in the fancy costumes, than in the games.

How is this different than how your average male views strategy and/or roleplay gamers?

Let's say it is a matter of percentage: the 95% the females and the 70% males saw the gamers like a bunch of loser/nerd. Now the things are changed, but thank to the cosplay, not to a real interest in the games.

So how do you reconcile this idea that women aren't interested in games with the fact that other stereotypically nerdy hobbies like CCGs and board games are much more representative? Again, it's literally only wargaming that has this issue, and certain wargames like Malifaux have avoided the problem as well.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 16:40:41


Post by: The_Grim_Angel


Where I live comics, roleplay games, card games, strategy games, board games were considered things for nerd/loser by the girls, so I don't need to reconcile nothing.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 16:55:40


Post by: Laughing Man


The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Where I live comics, roleplay games, card games, strategy games, board games were considered things for nerd/loser by the girls, so I don't need to reconcile nothing.

Given we have pretty good demographic data that says otherwise, have you considered that the commonality with all these things may just be you?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 17:10:35


Post by: The_Grim_Angel


I have a population of 60.000.000 of people who confirm my statement, so why are you annoying me with these inferences? Don't you like the reality in which I live? I'm sorry: it is something I can't change. Don't you like the fact I have described my personal experience? I'm sorry, but I thought (and I still think) it is pertinent to the topic of this thread. Do you thing I have made a false statement? You should know the reality in which I live and then use that knowledge to confute my statement. I don't know how you will reply, but because you are talking about a reality you don't know and because you haven't written nothing useful to this discussion, I will not reply to you; I'm sorry if I have written something you don't like.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 17:47:59


Post by: LunarSol


Herzlos wrote:
Representation is a good point r.e. Malifaux, and I think a big reason some people get into it. My wife has a few of the Malifaux crews to paint.

For women and POC, etc, then there's minimal representation in say, American Civil War or Napoleonic games.


Even outside of historics, Wargaming is generally pretty far behind when it comes to diversity. It certainly hasn't caught up to the wave of updated tropes that the genre has dived on. The genre has moved on past frail healers and beautiful elven mages that guide nature. A lot of the recent fantasy popularity has come from character archetypes that give women more to work with: tomboyish thieves and muscle bound amazons and rotund dwarves covered in engine grease. There's just a lot more appeal these days without having to feel like you're forcing yourself in the door. It certainly doesn't hurt that Game of Thrones provided a big invitation with a good selection of heroes to seek to emulate. Wargames just don't do that currently and I think there's little surprise there's not much of a female audience as consequence.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 18:03:07


Post by: Laughing Man


The_Grim_Angel wrote:
I have a population of 60.000.000 of people who confirm my statement, so why are you annoying me with these inferences? Don't you like the reality in which I live? I'm sorry: it is something I can't change. Don't you like the fact I have described my personal experience? I'm sorry, but I thought (and I still think) it is pertinent to the topic of this thread. Do you thing I have made a false statement? You should know the reality in which I live and then use that knowledge to confute my statement. I don't know how you will reply, but because you are talking about a reality you don't know and because you haven't written nothing useful to this discussion, I will not reply to you; I'm sorry if I have written something you don't like.


That's the thing: Your lived experiece is objectively counter to reality. DnD's player base is 40% women, as is Magic: The Gathering's. Paizo's player base is even more diverse. Every genre but wargaming has a reasonably even split between men and women who play the games, and wargaming has its outliers as well (again, Malifaux). So you're clearly an outlier here.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 18:09:06


Post by: Cybtroll


Small local (national) digression:

I can confirm that what Grim Reaper says is (unfortunately) mostly (not entirely) true. Culturally speaking, we're behind the curve on average by something like 10 years (which is fun because the avant-garde here being free by common conceptions are usually 10 years ahead... so it's more of a 20 years gap of incommunicability).
Even if Internet and YouTube are good catalyst, a small portion of Italian speak even a low level of English.

That said, there are A LOT of gamers and a lot of girls that plays also on Italy (that's obvious, I know). I've found out that many of them (for the reason Grim Reaper explained: essentially a social stigma still alive and partially kicking) don't interact socially and so seem to not exist... But they are there.

LARP and Live events, Play by Forum, Play by Chat are those where it is easier to find and connect with them. Then you'll realize a lot of them play boardgames, RPG etc... They play privately because they can't be bothered to do that in public.

For example Luca Giuliano is a prominent Italian games author, and he has a recurrent program on the national radio.
Lucca Comics and Games is almost on par with Essen in term of participation.
10 years ago of a random survey I promoted about intelligent gaming (I collected 800 responses) I believe that 25% were female.

60 millions is a huge number. A very small minority will count up to a few millions anyway.

On the opposite side of the argument, a fun fact to convey you the cultural misconception and obscurity of games here: dependencies from lottery or casinos in Italian are called "Ludopatia". Meaning "game sickness".

The bets industries (casinos, sports bet, scratch lotteries and lotteries in general) very carefully position themselves here as "games". Also, "game" is commonly used for "sports" even if we have both words.
Please do realize that, if you talk about "games" to an Italian in Italian, it's very much probable that they will intend either sport or bets. Not D&D for sure.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 19:08:08


Post by: LunarSol


Never underestimate how much people mask their interests to be socially accepted. In high school I went on a date with a girl, she was a cheerleader, I was on the football team, but we didn't have much in common to talk about. In reality, that wasn't really the case. She shared a lot of the same interests I had, but both of us were only projecting the people we thought we were supposed to be to be accepted.

A lot of the explosion in geek culture is just a result of the internet providing a place where people can share their interests and realize they're not alone in them. That sense of community makes it a lot easier to be open about those interests elsewhere, which in turn, helps other people feel like they can share their own interests.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 20:07:57


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 LunarSol wrote:
Never underestimate how much people mask their interests to be socially accepted. In high school I went on a date with a girl, she was a cheerleader, I was on the football team, but we didn't have much in common to talk about. In reality, that wasn't really the case. She shared a lot of the same interests I had, but both of us were only projecting the people we thought we were supposed to be to be accepted.

A lot of the explosion in geek culture is just a result of the internet providing a place where people can share their interests and realize they're not alone in them. That sense of community makes it a lot easier to be open about those interests elsewhere, which in turn, helps other people feel like they can share their own interests.
Very true.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/10 20:24:13


Post by: dreadblade


 kirotheavenger wrote:

Women are often less competitive than men, in my experience they prefer shared activities to competitions - that's very much not wargames, at least not the traditional/popular ones.

You've clearly never played Mrs. dreadblade at Monopoly


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 00:12:33


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Vulcan wrote:

But arguing that therefore ALL groups of white men are hostile in various ways to outsiders, especially those who are not white men, is EVERY BIT AS RACIST AND SEXIST. This concept of inherent racism and sexism in white men CAN be argued every bit as vigorously as the concept of women being completely uninterested in wargames.[/i]


Not all men.

Nobody is arguing that. Literally no one. Most of the people here arguing that the problem is hostile neckbeards are themselves white dudes who, presumably, are not hostile neckbeards. That in and of itself is a refutation of the argument.

But it only takes one bad egg in a group of a dozen good ones to turn people away - I've seen happen many times. And in reality, there doesn't even need to be a bad egg in a particular group, the mere fact that there are as many bad eggs out there as there are is enough to establish a reputation on behalf of the entire community - not that every member of it is a hostile gak, but that there are enough hostile gaks in the community to make it wholly unwelcoming and unfriendly to those who would otherwise be interested in it - in spite of those who try to be welcoming.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

this behaviour is seen most extremely in those on the asbergers (and autistic) scale where men outnumber women by a significant margin, and both conditions are thought to be the extreme edge of male brain development


This is incorrect. Autism is DIAGNOSED in men more often by a significant margin because indicators of autism in women tend to be a bit different from those in men and because autistic women tend to be higher functioning than autistic men. Often the indicators in women don't become evident until later in life, whereas for boys its more obvious from the time they are toddlers. In women it often becomes more obvious in the teens, but its not uncommon for them to make it through to late adolescence or early adulthood before it becomes evident that they haven't fully mentally matured to the same degree as their counterparts who aren't on the spectrum. There is often also a reluctance on the part of clinicians to diagnose autism in women owing to the perpetuation of the belief that it is primarily a "boys disease" (principally as a result of Autism Speaks, which is a hate group masquerading as a charity, dont support them). Additionally, women on the spectrum tend to have a higher prevalence of other mental health issues (anxiety, depression, ADHD, etc.) which often mask the autism diagnosis until later in life, as clinicians tend not to look too far past the surface level conditions (for understandable reasons).

Trust me on this, my SO happens to be a bit of an expert in this subject.

Never underestimate how much people mask their interests to be socially accepted.


I, a 32 year old male with an elite education, a hot girlfriend (who plays AoS and 40k with me and is currently working in the board games industry), and a 6 figure salary, still mask it. I go to great pains to hide it from the "normies" in my life, I don't post about the hobby on any form of social media in which I am not hidden behind a username (like dakka), I only join and post in closed/private facebook groups so there is no risk of my geeky interests showing up on my friends timelines, etc. etc. etc. I was much more careful about it when I was younger and more concerned about getting laid for fear that I would be ostracized by the girls I was dating for being a nerd. At this point theres not much point in me continuing to hide it as most of the people I socialize with on a regular basis are likewise fellow gamers, etc. but after being so careful about it for so long I kind of internalized that mindset and old habits die hard I suppose.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 00:49:57


Post by: Vulcan


Cronch wrote:

On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested

We're not talking about why Jane Q, whose hobbies include baking pies and reading romance novels isn't interested in wargaming, we're talking about why Jill Q, whose hobbies include building net decks and smashing people with them at the LGS isn't interested in wargaming.

So far the leading theory is that the word WAR is a female repellent, like holy water against vampires.

Honestly, I think it's for the better at this point.


The trick being, who is closer to the average? Jane Q, or Jill Q?

The answer is probably neither of them; the stereotypical housewife has become much less common as the gamer girl has become more common. Now your average is probably the working woman with a full-time job (if not a full-blown career) and far less spare time and money than one might assume. This might overlap with housewife and/or gamer girl as well.

As I pointed out at the end of my post, time and money - or lack thereof - are the big killers of hobbies. Especially among women and minorities, who average less pay than the average white male.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
Oh look, and now we have gakky behavior apology turn up in the shape of bUt MaLeS aRE AgReSSiVe cUz BiOLoGy!

As I said, it's for the best that so few women decide to be exposed to the time capsule of the 1860s that wargaming is...


It may not excuse the behavior, but pretending this is not a fact does not an argument make. ON THE AVERAGE, men ARE more aggressive than women.

Yes, there are absolutely outliers on both sides. But statistically boys are much more likely to get involved in fights in school... among many other indicators.

Does this mean NO women are aggressive? That NO women could possibly be interested in wargames? Of course not. However, statistically a lower percentage are. Again, this is a fact.

Do wargamers need to be more welcoming to women who want in? YES. But there will always be fewer women in wargaming than men. I'd be more concerned about the statistical under-representation of minorities in wargaming than women and how that indicates inequalities in the overall society.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
It's always amusing to see the extremists on both sides go at it hammer and tongs, however politely.

Both sides have a point... but neither are 100% correct either.

Yes, the hobby skews heavily toward white men. That can't be argued. There are groups of wargamers who are going to be... shall we say, too friendly? to women seeking to join the hobby and come off creepy. Be that due to being outright creepy, or due to mere social awkwardness, it is a fact. This cannot be argued. There are also are going to be some individuals and even groups who ARE going to be hostile to outsiders, especially ones who are not white men. This also cannot be argued.

But arguing that therefore ALL groups of white men are hostile in various ways to outsiders, especially those who are not white men, is EVERY BIT AS RACIST AND SEXIST. This concept of inherent racism and sexism in white men CAN be argued every bit as vigorously as the concept of women being completely uninterested in wargames.

Can we, as wargamers, do better at attracting and keeping non-white, non-male participants? Of course we can. But not all of us are awkward geeks, leering letches, or racist misogynist jerks either, not by a long shot.

On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested - LESS interested, as opposed to NOT interested - in violent movies, violent stories, and yes, violent games. Minorities likewise have less interest in subjects that skew heavily white, in part due to racist encounters as mentioned above, and in part to having other things to deal with that are just a wee bit more important to their lives. Income differences pay a big part here; wargaming does tend to be a bit pricey to get into.

So the struggle to get more women and minorities involved in our hobby does go beyond merely being more welcoming to them once they reach the game store or game club. There are other, more systemic issues that need addressing as well to allow them the time and resources to participate more.
I'm going to need you to strip this of nuance and present it as a series of points which are 100% good or 100% bad, lest I be forced to report it off topic


Yeah, as someone in the middle who can see both sides, I take a lot of fire FROM both sides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Laughing Man wrote:
The_Grim_Angel wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
The_Grim_Angel wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Why Are There So Few Women in Wargaming?

https://www.wired.com/story/women-wargaming-sexism-harassment/

"A combination of a high barrier to entry and outdated, misogynistic attitudes keep women out of a hobby where they could thrive."

Do you think this article aims at 'traditional' wargamers in terms of the discussed demographic (it is also the one that gets professional interest as they use that group to recruit to professional wargaming roles)? Though the barrier to entry is presumably the same for both men and women, unless women in the west have lower disposable incomes at the 'GW recruitment' age?


If there was a certainty about my local game store, is exactly the opposite: we would have done everything to have more female players! My experience is quite the opposite: the girls think to be a strategy and/or roleplay gamer is to be a nerd/loser, so they kept themselves away from the game stores. The things are changed when it started the trend of the cosplay, but only because the girls are more interested in the fancy costumes, than in the games.

How is this different than how your average male views strategy and/or roleplay gamers?

Let's say it is a matter of percentage: the 95% the females and the 70% males saw the gamers like a bunch of loser/nerd. Now the things are changed, but thank to the cosplay, not to a real interest in the games.

So how do you reconcile this idea that women aren't interested in games with the fact that other stereotypically nerdy hobbies like CCGs and board games are much more representative? Again, it's literally only wargaming that has this issue, and certain wargames like Malifaux have avoided the problem as well.


Sounds like you're arguing that female representation within the game is the whole problem, not the actions of the individual game shops and clubs. At which point you should be aiming this whole discussion at fantasy game producers to demand more representation instead of bugging us about it. We can't do much beyond support what they produce.

And in which case historical wargaming should be SOL, as women did not participate in war the vast majority of the time, historically speaking, so there's precious little female representation to be had...

Having said that... yeah. I can see the problem. A lot of fantasy stuff, if it has female representation at all, is of the cheesecake variety. Not going to get a lot of women interested that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Laughing Man wrote:
The_Grim_Angel wrote:
I have a population of 60.000.000 of people who confirm my statement, so why are you annoying me with these inferences? Don't you like the reality in which I live? I'm sorry: it is something I can't change. Don't you like the fact I have described my personal experience? I'm sorry, but I thought (and I still think) it is pertinent to the topic of this thread. Do you thing I have made a false statement? You should know the reality in which I live and then use that knowledge to confute my statement. I don't know how you will reply, but because you are talking about a reality you don't know and because you haven't written nothing useful to this discussion, I will not reply to you; I'm sorry if I have written something you don't like.


That's the thing: Your lived experiece is objectively counter to reality. DnD's player base is 40% women, as is Magic: The Gathering's. Paizo's player base is even more diverse. Every genre but wargaming has a reasonably even split between men and women who play the games, and wargaming has its outliers as well (again, Malifaux). So you're clearly an outlier here.


And there we have it. 40/60, not equality. EVEN YOU admit there are more men than women in these 'woman friendly' gaming outlets.

Can Warhammer do better than it is? YES. Absolutely yes. The representation issue, the socially awkward or overtly lecherous gamer stereotype that gets perpetuated - itself another issue that needs addressing; stereotyping rarely results in anything positive - the 'just us' club attitude, all this needs work.

But expecting complete equality is probably never going to happen. These are decidedly niche hobbies. Most MEN aren't interested in tabletop wargaming. Expecting most women to become interested is a lost cause from the beginning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

But arguing that therefore ALL groups of white men are hostile in various ways to outsiders, especially those who are not white men, is EVERY BIT AS RACIST AND SEXIST. This concept of inherent racism and sexism in white men CAN be argued every bit as vigorously as the concept of women being completely uninterested in wargames.[/i]


Not all men.

Nobody is arguing that. Literally no one. Most of the people here arguing that the problem is hostile neckbeards are themselves white dudes who, presumably, are not hostile neckbeards. That in and of itself is a refutation of the argument.

But it only takes one bad egg in a group of a dozen good ones to turn people away - I've seen happen many times. And in reality, there doesn't even need to be a bad egg in a particular group, the mere fact that there are as many bad eggs out there as there are is enough to establish a reputation on behalf of the entire community - not that every member of it is a hostile gak, but that there are enough hostile gaks in the community to make it wholly unwelcoming and unfriendly to those who would otherwise be interested in it - in spite of those who try to be welcoming.


Agreed. This sort of thing is something game groups need to maintain awareness of and deal with whenever it rears it's head.

The fix need not be tossing the tosser out of the group, either. We had a player who got salty whenever he was losing. Not just with newbies, with anyone. And he lost a lot because at the point I joined the group he wasn't a very good player. Most of the rest of the group didn't want to play him anymore, which didn't help his attitude.

So... I played him. I won, of course, but took the time afterwards to discuss the game with him. Where he made mistakes, where he missed opportunities, and where the dice just bit him and he SHOULD have done better if they hadn't. Over the course of a couple months he got better at the game, and got a lot less salty when he was losing. Other players in the group noticed this and started playing him again.

And so when one of our player's young teenage daughter showed interest in Warhammer, he felt fine bringing her in because he knew we policed our group... and in a positive manner to boot.

(She also proved to be a very good player straightaway. My first game with her I brought a fluffy list because she was playing WE before they got their 8E book. Didn't want to curb-stomp the newbie, you know. She handed me my head with some VERY good tactics in short order and told me to bring my A-game next time... which I did, and wins were never easy for either of us again. A WHOLE lot of fun playing, though. )


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 03:23:05


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You did not read the article.
It's hard to pay attention when an article (or the person being quoted in the article) wants to generalise everyone based on skin colour.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 04:51:27


Post by: StygianBeach


I thought asking someone if that young lady at the tournament was their daughter was being friendly?

Is it creepy instead?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 04:54:31


Post by: cuda1179


 Vulcan wrote:
[

As I pointed out at the end of my post, time and money - or lack thereof - are the big killers of hobbies. Especially among women and minorities, who average less pay than the average white male.

Do wargamers need to be more welcoming to women who want in? YES. But there will always be fewer women in wargaming than men. I'd be more concerned about the statistical under-representation of minorities in wargaming than women and how that indicates inequalities in the overall society.



A couple things here: As you pointed out, the the big killers of the hobby are lack of money, and lack of TIME. One of the main reasons women make less than men is that men spend noticeably more time in the workplace. While men make more money, I think the added time women have would somewhat offset female underfunding. For Minorities, I can REALLY see the financial part. Socio-Economics is the reason Basketball is popular and swimming isn't popular in many poor minority neighborhoods. Basketball doesn't require mush investment to play. Unfortunately, wargaming is a huge investment.

When I've looked around my gaming groups, a vast majority of the guys there are, to put it politely, extreme nerds. The "coolest" guys would be perhaps average in normal society. I think the same would be true of any women in the hobby. Nerds tend to be rather socially awkward, especially to the opposite sex. Think back to high school. The cooler people (of both genders) were much more likely to have not only more friends, but friends of different genders. I'm afraid that that same social awkwardness to the other gender followed many nerds of both genders into adulthood. It's not that we're bad people, we're just toddlers trying to read a book on particle physics. Having a nerdy woman that is poor at male interaction trying to become part of an all male nerd clan is challenging.

I agree that getting minorities into the game (other than Asians) seems to be a bit of a pickle. When I was a younger man a couple of my Black friends would admit they caught crap from their other friends/family for "Acting White", like it's a bad thing. I assume this is a similar shaming to when girls act like a Tom Boy.

Another thought, why is there rarely any concern about making certain hobbies more multicultural? I assume that further integrating races/genders would be a good thing not only in wargaming, but in other hobbies too. Why is there no push to get more men into the Pilates classes, Spin Cycling, or other heavily female activities? Why isn't there a push to get more Asians/Whites onto basketball courts and other sports? Shouldn't we be trying to push multiculturalism from both ends?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 04:57:28


Post by: Laughing Man


 Vulcan wrote:
Agreed. This sort of thing is something game groups need to maintain awareness of and deal with whenever it rears it's head.

The fix need not be tossing the tosser out of the group, either. We had a player who got salty whenever he was losing. Not just with newbies, with anyone. And he lost a lot because at the point I joined the group he wasn't a very good player. Most of the rest of the group didn't want to play him anymore, which didn't help his attitude.

So... I played him. I won, of course, but took the time afterwards to discuss the game with him. Where he made mistakes, where he missed opportunities, and where the dice just bit him and he SHOULD have done better if they hadn't. Over the course of a couple months he got better at the game, and got a lot less salty when he was losing. Other players in the group noticed this and started playing him again.

And so when one of our player's young teenage daughter showed interest in Warhammer, he felt fine bringing her in because he knew we policed our group... and in a positive manner to boot.

(She also proved to be a very good player straightaway. My first game with her I brought a fluffy list because she was playing WE before they got their 8E book. Didn't want to curb-stomp the newbie, you know. She handed me my head with some VERY good tactics in short order and told me to bring my A-game next time... which I did, and wins were never easy for either of us again. A WHOLE lot of fun playing, though. )

No offense, but your your group isn't that great outside of prepubescent girls. One of them literally chased off one of my friends after spending half an hour harassing her in an attempt to get her number, despite her very obvious hints that she had absolutely no interest in him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vulcan wrote:
Cronch wrote:

On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested
Now your average is probably the working woman with a full-time job (if not a full-blown career) and far less spare time and money than one might assume. This might overlap with housewife and/or gamer girl as well.

As I pointed out at the end of my post, time and money - or lack thereof - are the big killers of hobbies. Especially among women and minorities, who average less pay than the average white male.

That's actually a good point: Women not only are paid less than men for the same jobs, but are expected to perform more labor in a relationship, both emotional and physical. That means a lot less free time and money than your average male gamer, which definitely contributes to the gender gap.



Sounds like you're arguing that female representation within the game is the whole problem, not the actions of the individual game shops and clubs. At which point you should be aiming this whole discussion at fantasy game producers to demand more representation instead of bugging us about it. We can't do much beyond support what they produce.

And in which case historical wargaming should be SOL, as women did not participate in war the vast majority of the time, historically speaking, so there's precious little female representation to be had...

Having said that... yeah. I can see the problem. A lot of fantasy stuff, if it has female representation at all, is of the cheesecake variety. Not going to get a lot of women interested that way.[/quote[
I wasn't actually arguing that, although you're right that the hobby doesn't make itself very welcoming to women in the first place via plenty of sexist tropes. I meant representation in the actual hobby community as compared to the general population.


And there we have it. 40/60, not equality. EVEN YOU admit there are more men than women in these 'woman friendly' gaming outlets.

Can Warhammer do better than it is? YES. Absolutely yes. The representation issue, the socially awkward or overtly lecherous gamer stereotype that gets perpetuated - itself another issue that needs addressing; stereotyping rarely results in anything positive - the 'just us' club attitude, all this needs work.

But expecting complete equality is probably never going to happen. These are decidedly niche hobbies. Most MEN aren't interested in tabletop wargaming. Expecting most women to become interested is a lost cause from the beginning.

Nobody's arguing that there's currently the same number of women as men in any of our niche hobbies: There are decades of gatekeeping and sexism to overcome, and the fact that CCGs and RPGs *are* so much closer to gender parity should make wargaming's abysmal number of women players even more appalling. And it's not even equal among various games, as has been pointed out. I've seen far, far more women playing Warmachine than I have Warhammer, and even more play Malifaux (although I especially defer to actual research rather than personal experience there, given we don't really have a Malifaux community locally).


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 05:31:04


Post by: Laughing Man


 Vulcan wrote:
Agreed. This sort of thing is something game groups need to maintain awareness of and deal with whenever it rears it's head.

The fix need not be tossing the tosser out of the group, either. We had a player who got salty whenever he was losing. Not just with newbies, with anyone. And he lost a lot because at the point I joined the group he wasn't a very good player. Most of the rest of the group didn't want to play him anymore, which didn't help his attitude.

So... I played him. I won, of course, but took the time afterwards to discuss the game with him. Where he made mistakes, where he missed opportunities, and where the dice just bit him and he SHOULD have done better if they hadn't. Over the course of a couple months he got better at the game, and got a lot less salty when he was losing. Other players in the group noticed this and started playing him again.

And so when one of our player's young teenage daughter showed interest in Warhammer, he felt fine bringing her in because he knew we policed our group... and in a positive manner to boot.

(She also proved to be a very good player straightaway. My first game with her I brought a fluffy list because she was playing WE before they got their 8E book. Didn't want to curb-stomp the newbie, you know. She handed me my head with some VERY good tactics in short order and told me to bring my A-game next time... which I did, and wins were never easy for either of us again. A WHOLE lot of fun playing, though. )

No offense, but your your group isn't that great outside of prepubescent girls. One of them literally chased off one of my friends after spending half an hour harassing her in an attempt to get her number, despite her very obvious hints that she had absolutely no interest in him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vulcan wrote:
Cronch wrote:

On the flip side, yes, women ON THE AVERAGE do tend to be less interested
Now your average is probably the working woman with a full-time job (if not a full-blown career) and far less spare time and money than one might assume. This might overlap with housewife and/or gamer girl as well.

As I pointed out at the end of my post, time and money - or lack thereof - are the big killers of hobbies. Especially among women and minorities, who average less pay than the average white male.

That's actually a good point: Women not only are paid less than men for the same jobs, but are expected to perform more labor in a relationship, both emotional and physical. That means a lot less free time and money than your average male gamer, which definitely contributes to the gender gap.



Sounds like you're arguing that female representation within the game is the whole problem, not the actions of the individual game shops and clubs. At which point you should be aiming this whole discussion at fantasy game producers to demand more representation instead of bugging us about it. We can't do much beyond support what they produce.

And in which case historical wargaming should be SOL, as women did not participate in war the vast majority of the time, historically speaking, so there's precious little female representation to be had...

Having said that... yeah. I can see the problem. A lot of fantasy stuff, if it has female representation at all, is of the cheesecake variety. Not going to get a lot of women interested that way.

I wasn't actually arguing that, although you're right that the hobby doesn't make itself very welcoming to women in the first place via plenty of sexist tropes. I meant representation in the actual hobby community as compared to the general population.


And there we have it. 40/60, not equality. EVEN YOU admit there are more men than women in these 'woman friendly' gaming outlets.

Can Warhammer do better than it is? YES. Absolutely yes. The representation issue, the socially awkward or overtly lecherous gamer stereotype that gets perpetuated - itself another issue that needs addressing; stereotyping rarely results in anything positive - the 'just us' club attitude, all this needs work.

But expecting complete equality is probably never going to happen. These are decidedly niche hobbies. Most MEN aren't interested in tabletop wargaming. Expecting most women to become interested is a lost cause from the beginning.

Nobody's arguing that there's currently the same number of women as men in any of our niche hobbies: There are decades of gatekeeping and sexism to overcome, and the fact that CCGs and RPGs *are* so much closer to gender parity should make wargaming's abysmal number of women players even more appalling. And it's not even equal among various games, as has been pointed out. I've seen far, far more women playing Warmachine than I have Warhammer, and even more play Malifaux (although I especially defer to actual research rather than personal experience there, given we don't really have a Malifaux community locally).


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 05:39:58


Post by: Vulcan


 cuda1179 wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:


As I pointed out at the end of my post, time and money - or lack thereof - are the big killers of hobbies. Especially among women and minorities, who average less pay than the average white male.

Do wargamers need to be more welcoming to women who want in? YES. But there will always be fewer women in wargaming than men. I'd be more concerned about the statistical under-representation of minorities in wargaming than women and how that indicates inequalities in the overall society.



A couple things here: As you pointed out, the the big killers of the hobby are lack of money, and lack of TIME. One of the main reasons women make less than men is that men spend noticeably more time in the workplace. While men make more money, I think the added time women have would somewhat offset female underfunding. For Minorities, I can REALLY see the financial part. Socio-Economics is the reason Basketball is popular and swimming isn't popular in many poor minority neighborhoods. Basketball doesn't require mush investment to play. Unfortunately, wargaming is a huge investment.

When I've looked around my gaming groups, a vast majority of the guys there are, to put it politely, extreme nerds. The "coolest" guys would be perhaps average in normal society. I think the same would be true of any women in the hobby. Nerds tend to be rather socially awkward, especially to the opposite sex. Think back to high school. The cooler people (of both genders) were much more likely to have not only more friends, but friends of different genders. I'm afraid that that same social awkwardness to the other gender followed many nerds of both genders into adulthood. It's not that we're bad people, we're just toddlers trying to read a book on particle physics. Having a nerdy woman that is poor at male interaction trying to become part of an all male nerd clan is challenging.

I agree that getting minorities into the game (other than Asians) seems to be a bit of a pickle. When I was a younger man a couple of my Black friends would admit they caught crap from their other friends/family for "Acting White", like it's a bad thing. I assume this is a similar shaming to when girls act like a Tom Boy.

Another thought, why is there rarely any concern about making certain hobbies more multicultural? I assume that further integrating races/genders would be a good thing not only in wargaming, but in other hobbies too. Why is there no push to get more men into the Pilates classes, Spin Cycling, or other heavily female activities? Why isn't there a push to get more Asians/Whites onto basketball courts and other sports? Shouldn't we be trying to push multiculturalism from both ends?


Part of the time issue is that even now, women do far more work in the household than men do. Yes, men do more cleaning, cooking, laundry, and other household chores than they used to, but in many if not most households the woman does more chores than the man does.

(I have no idea how this works out in a non-heteronormative household. I haven't seen any studies on the subject, only stereotypes, and I believe I mentioned upthread how stereotypes rarely result in any good.)

Yes, the pressure against 'acting white' is real. Lost several grade school friends to it in middle and high school. 'Twas not a happy time for me when it happened, but when the choice is 'stop hanging out with the white kids or our gang will shoot you'... well... And yes, they did threaten to shoot one of my friends if he continued being my friend.

But the plural of anecdote is not data, so I have no idea if this is really widespread, or if my area (St. Louis) just had a really, REALLY bad case of it. Looking at more recent events, I suspect it's the latter as much as anything.

On that last bit, when whites show up in what is viewed as a minority activity, it's called cultural appropriation and is EEEEEEEEVILLLLLL.... Which is a double standard if ever there was one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
Agreed. This sort of thing is something game groups need to maintain awareness of and deal with whenever it rears it's head.

The fix need not be tossing the tosser out of the group, either. We had a player who got salty whenever he was losing. Not just with newbies, with anyone. And he lost a lot because at the point I joined the group he wasn't a very good player. Most of the rest of the group didn't want to play him anymore, which didn't help his attitude.

So... I played him. I won, of course, but took the time afterwards to discuss the game with him. Where he made mistakes, where he missed opportunities, and where the dice just bit him and he SHOULD have done better if they hadn't. Over the course of a couple months he got better at the game, and got a lot less salty when he was losing. Other players in the group noticed this and started playing him again.

And so when one of our player's young teenage daughter showed interest in Warhammer, he felt fine bringing her in because he knew we policed our group... and in a positive manner to boot.

(She also proved to be a very good player straightaway. My first game with her I brought a fluffy list because she was playing WE before they got their 8E book. Didn't want to curb-stomp the newbie, you know. She handed me my head with some VERY good tactics in short order and told me to bring my A-game next time... which I did, and wins were never easy for either of us again. A WHOLE lot of fun playing, though. )

No offense, but your your group isn't that great outside of prepubescent girls. One of them literally chased off one of my friends after spending half an hour harassing her in an attempt to get her number, despite her very obvious hints that she had absolutely no interest in him.


You know me from Game Nite some ten years ago when I was still in the St. Louis area? I know it can't be my 'current' group because here in the middle of the desert nowhere there is no group within 80 miles or more.

I can just barely see a pre-reform [problem player mentioned above] acting that way. Barely. The rest? No... no, I just don't see it.

Who are you? PM me, please, I'm curious.


And there we have it. 40/60, not equality. EVEN YOU admit there are more men than women in these 'woman friendly' gaming outlets.

Can Warhammer do better than it is? YES. Absolutely yes. The representation issue, the socially awkward or overtly lecherous gamer stereotype that gets perpetuated - itself another issue that needs addressing; stereotyping rarely results in anything positive - the 'just us' club attitude, all this needs work.

But expecting complete equality is probably never going to happen. These are decidedly niche hobbies. Most MEN aren't interested in tabletop wargaming. Expecting most women to become interested is a lost cause from the beginning.

Nobody's arguing that there's currently the same number of women as men in any of our niche hobbies: There are decades of gatekeeping and sexism to overcome, and the fact that CCGs and RPGs *are* so much closer to gender parity should make wargaming's abysmal number of women players even more appalling. And it's not even equal among various games, as has been pointed out. I've seen far, far more women playing Warmachine than I have Warhammer, and even more play Malifaux (although I especially defer to actual research rather than personal experience there, given we don't really have a Malifaux community locally).


Agreed. Some games have done a better job with representation than others, and it's not uncommon to find that games with poorer representation have... shall we say, less welcoming attitudes? Like I said, we can do better than we have in the past.

But you get people to do better with a carrot, not a stick. Even basic Pavlovian conditioning works better with positive reinforcement than negative. Scolding people who have problems makes them defensive, resulting in them digging in and resisting even harder. Instead you lure them out with praise and reward when they do it right.

And one of the most basic rewards is having a larger pool of players to play with.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 06:45:31


Post by: kirotheavenger


It's worth noting that although women earn less money on average, they spend significantly more money on average. So I'm not entirely sure the idea that women just don't have the money holds water.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 10:48:54


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 StygianBeach wrote:
I thought asking someone if that young lady at the tournament was their daughter was being friendly?

Is it creepy instead?


If you think it is as common to ask every man is that young guy your son, no. However you get a lot more questions like that if you are the odd one out, and a woman at a wargaming meet often is. When you get asked stuff or told stuff no one else is, you could well consider it creepy. And yes the women I have known dip into wargames or even cross over stuff like bloodbowl have had to have thick skins for the non game related attention they get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Another thought, why is there rarely any concern about making certain hobbies more multicultural? I assume that further integrating races/genders would be a good thing not only in wargaming, but in other hobbies too. Why is there no push to get more men into the Pilates classes, Spin Cycling, or other heavily female activities? Why isn't there a push to get more Asians/Whites onto basketball courts and other sports? Shouldn't we be trying to push multiculturalism from both ends?


So two aspects here. First getting more women in is a commercial objective. Widen participation, sell more stuff. You local pilates group might be at max capacity, or available at a time between school runs to catch affluent stay at home parents, traditionally women. Their clientele might prefer single gender classes. When people want more customers you will see them alter times, advertising etc and I have seen classes aimed solely at men as well. Indeed I have never seen a spin cycling session that wasn't majority men, so here there are different dynamics going on. But broadly if there is a potential male market companies try and entice them.

The advantage for us as gamers is we get more people to play with. As there is nothing biologically restricting about our hobbies (we don't need additional organs added and a black carapace for example) recruiting from the biggest pool of people possible makes sense.

The second is where wargaming tips into the professional world. The biggest recruitment pool for wargamers is still hobbists. Here a lack of diversity over at least 4 areas - internal, external, organisational, and worldview - is a real problem. You need people who think significantly differently with significantly different experiences to best the best insights and training results.
Here is one article summing it up from the UK point of view
https://wavellroom.com/2021/01/15/wargaming-has-a-diversity-problem/
And 2 from the US point of view
https://warontherocks.com/2021/02/is-the-department-of-defense-making-enough-progress-in-wargaming/
https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2020/07/02/the-need-for-diversity-in-wargaming/

Incidentally discuss on this topic in wargame groups on facebook and the like goes south far more than here. This is a tame example
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=549468


This is incidentally another missive ont he advantages of a diverse group for longevity and levels of activity.
https://legacy.wargamer.com/wargames-2020-diversity-inclusion/


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 11:32:25


Post by: Cronch


I would once more point out, as Vulkan and Kiro obsessively focus on "the average" that in all my questions, I focus on the already nerdy women that do have the disposable income to play tabletop games, as they currently exist, in flesh, in CCG and board and rpg gaming circles. It's THOSE exceptional individuals that still avoid this one, particular kind of tabletop hobby, and so far the answer seems to be "war in title scares ladies off".


But yes, I know why the average woman doesn't play wargames, the same reason why almost no men ever touch the wargaming hobby, they're not interested in tabletop gaming at all. There is no mystery there.

My limited IRL observation and seeing so many online discussions unfold would suggest the issue isn't that the word "war" and idea of rolling dice to "kill" things scares girls off (they seem to have no big issue with disemboweling monsters in D&D which is usually way more graphic due to the narrative aspect than clinical, non-violent way of just removing soldier tokens from board in 40k) but rather than wargaming communities on average are unwelcoming either by being generally unwelcoming to new people or by being specifically unwelcoming to anyone that poses a "threat" to the status quo.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 11:43:03


Post by: kirotheavenger


I dislike the idea that we need racial or gender diversity in order to have diversity of opinion in a group.
My university course was 18 people, all white, 16 men, 2 women. Yet we had people from all the way across the spectrum of life. We had the upper class guy that didn't really understand buying a house was an significant event to the guy that came off the street to whom having food to eat was a big win, and everything in between.
If we had a problem we'd have 18 different solutions.
The idea that that group wasn't diverse because of something as trivial as skin colour is silly and I find achieves exactly the opposite of what you're claiming to stand for.

I will agree with you that increasing female participation in the hobby will be a positive thing.
More players is good, more money for the companies supporting the hobby is good, it may help improve the social skills of some involved which is good (or push some people out, which is sad).
But I don't agree that it will make things more diverse in any way that matters, other than the above.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 11:55:07


Post by: Cronch


I mean, you do tho.
A group of all able-bodied men is unlikely to think of things such as accesibility or need for changing tables unless actually pointed out to them.
A group of all white people is unlikely to have the experience of say, being taught by your parents to avoid the police because they might as well hurt you instead of help.
A group of all men is unlikely to know women have hard time having their pain taken seriously at the doctors' office which is the reality of many women in the States and other "1st world' countries.

Obviously wargaming is much less dramatic than scenarios like that, but you still end up with a group that is in essence culturally incestous. And you can be fine with it, as many people are- it's their "safe space", but then let's at least be honest about it.


(And that TMP thread was a WILD ride )


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 13:32:20


Post by: kirotheavenger


Cronch wrote:
I would once more point out, as Vulkan and Kiro obsessively focus on "the average"

This thread is why women are less represented in wargaming.
That is a question of averages.
The fact that there are fewer super nerdy women who are into wargames is an important factor in why men are more represented in wargames.

There are other factors, but since everyone agrees on those factors (such as generally presenting a male-dominated front and/or social awkwardness) so we're not arguing about the existence of those factors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
I mean, you do tho.
A group of all able-bodied men is unlikely to think of things such as accesibility or need for changing tables unless actually pointed out to them.
A group of all white people is unlikely to have the experience of say, being taught by your parents to avoid the police because they might as well hurt you instead of help.
A group of all men is unlikely to know women have hard time having their pain taken seriously at the doctors' office which is the reality of many women in the States and other "1st world' countries

That's a lot of assumptions extrapolated from our race and gender. I can also tell you that you're objectively wrong on all counts.
Ya'know, men have kids too...
Who said anything about able?
White guys can be treated badly by police too
Isn't that exactly the racism and sexism angle we're supposed to be avoiding?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 13:39:19


Post by: Frazzled



Women tend to be less interested in war than men as another factor.
Wargaming does have an old-boys-club sense about it that adjacent hobbies like rpgs have lost. I think they've put a lot of effort into shaking that stereotype in a way that wargames have not.
It's loads and loads of these slight gender-trends/biased that all combine into the dynamic that we see today.


I've seen far, far more women and girls competing in tactical shooting competitions than tabletop wargaming. Frankly, they often also do quite well or better than your average shmo.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 13:44:11


Post by: kirotheavenger


Cronch wrote:

(And that TMP thread was a WILD ride )

What's wrong with it?
Every comment seems to be essentially "so what?".
Which I wholly agree with. That are tonnes of hobbies that are female dominated, without complaint.

There's nothing wrong with any skewed gender bias.
We can discuss why the gender bias is there, and perhaps find issues there. But "its mostly white men therefore we need to take steps to fix it" is bollocks and I agree with the TMP expressing that opinion.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 14:11:43


Post by: Easy E


Let's face it, most wargamers do not WANT new players in their groups. There is too big of a risk that they will come to the table with a different expectation of the game than you have. That leads to actual conflict and drama that no one wants. Most wargamers are in a very small, exclusive group of players in one of the people's garage or basement. Look at the old GW design team as an example!

Frequently, we spent too much time curating our game group to the people we actually WANT to play with. Therefore, we may not be that interested in expanding to new people once we get that group. New people are an unknown element. It may not even have to do with gender, race, or religion. Instead it comes down to WAAC, Fluffy, Casual, Tourney, etc. factors.

Heck, even on this board we see the disconnect between the Tourney Folks and the Filthy Casuals! In the wild, there is even more peril in this divide.





Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 14:24:39


Post by: Nurglitch


The fact that the leading wargame (yes, 40k is a wargame) is long, tedious, and doesn't make much sense to someone hoping to replicate the battles they see in movies and media might also be a factor. Board games, card games, D&D, these all suck less.

Take King of Tokyo, for example. You can play it in 15 minutes and it's just rolling dice. Very popular game that I personally wouldn't play unless you were paying my consultant rate for that 15 minutes and the remainder of the hour. Aside from the dice-rolling part, very unlike Warhammer.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 14:44:59


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I dislike the idea that we need racial or gender diversity in order to have diversity of opinion in a group.
The idea that that group wasn't diverse because of something as trivial as skin colour is silly and I find achieves exactly the opposite of what you're claiming to stand for.


So you are right and wrong.

The 'easiest' way to get a range of opinions, thought processes and experiences is to get a bunch of people who look different. Limb count, colour, gender etc. But that is a rough measure which you touched on in your answer. What I need is significant mental diversity, perhaps driven by a different experience set.

If I get a white male, asian female, black paraplegic etc. together, and they are all from Oxbridge... whilst they will have a wider range of experiences than most teams, they will have all been taught to think and process information in the same way. They will miss stuff and make a lot of mistakes trying to get in the head and observe–orient–decide–act loop of the target.

This used to be fine. Take SIS, they recruited Oxbridge types because the people they wished to influence and talk to overseas were often the same Oxbridge types. This came expensively unglued when dealing with say Taliban groups because there was no shared world view or understanding. Army humint guys were often far better and Gurkha's from farming backgrounds excellent. We are facing similar problmes with countries like China who don't always have the same degree of similarity the, say, Russians did in the 80's.

So go back to your group, they had a lot of diversity, but I could put together a more diverse group to achieve my requirements. It is worth chipping in here with the other side of the coin. We know from research and experience that diverse groups, preferably with insights into your target area, get the best outcomes. They also have the lowest levels of interpersonal and institutional trust. There is a management overhead that is expensive that we don't like to talk about. Now we have examples of organisations that deal well with diversity. take the army - it can take people from across society and form them into trusting teams, but it does that by introducing a high level of group think and trained behaviour. You can have the most diverse group of people on earth, but if you can't manage them you are worse off than with that oxbridge alumni group.

Circling back to our hobby its great to get everyone who wants to play into the club, but the people have to gel. Clubs splinter and fracture all the time and inter personal problems spill over constantly. I think it requires some deft management to keep a group like us together and the more diverse it gets the more EQ and interpersonal skill is needed, something a lot of us lack for one reason or another. How much we change to accommodate new people is always a tension. Where I work is polite but blunt. This is for reasons of expediency, but would we be better off talking like more regular humans to get more people interested in working her?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 14:54:16


Post by: Cronch


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Cronch wrote:
I would once more point out, as Vulkan and Kiro obsessively focus on "the average"

This thread is why women are less represented in wargaming.
That is a question of averages.
The fact that there are fewer super nerdy women who are into wargames is an important factor in why men are more represented in wargames.

There are other factors, but since everyone agrees on those factors (such as generally presenting a male-dominated front and/or social awkwardness) so we're not arguing about the existence of those factors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
I mean, you do tho.
A group of all able-bodied men is unlikely to think of things such as accesibility or need for changing tables unless actually pointed out to them.
A group of all white people is unlikely to have the experience of say, being taught by your parents to avoid the police because they might as well hurt you instead of help.
A group of all men is unlikely to know women have hard time having their pain taken seriously at the doctors' office which is the reality of many women in the States and other "1st world' countries

That's a lot of assumptions extrapolated from our race and gender. I can also tell you that you're objectively wrong on all counts.
Ya'know, men have kids too...
Who said anything about able?
White guys can be treated badly by police too
Isn't that exactly the racism and sexism angle we're supposed to be avoiding?


I never said all of those apply to your random group, I just gave you examples of how lack of actual diversity leads to dismissal of issues.
Such as your instant defensive "well white men get mistreated by the police too", as if we didn't see exactly how different those two groups are treated last year.
And men have kids too, sure. Those men, on average, until very recently, didn't participate much in early stages of childcare. They still take paternal leave at a much lower rate than women take maternal leave (In countries that allow it of course).


As for point one..I don't know how else to explain it. You seem to skip over the point every time.
Let's say you have 100 men and 100 women.
Of those, 30 men and 20 women are "nerds".
So yes, we are starting with smaller pool, but we do not concern ourselves with that aspect for now.
Of those 30 men, 10 go to RPG club, 10 go to MtG tournaments, 5 to boardgame nights and 5 visit GW/LGS to play. I am assuming there is no overlap for ease of demonstration.
Of those 20 women, 10 go to RPG club,6 to MtG tournaments, 3 to boardgame nighs and 1 vistis the LGS/GW.
What is the question is WHY only 1 of them went for wargames vs the more even split shown by men?
Those numbers are pure conjecture ofc, plug in whatever numbers you want, I am just curious why of the existing group of Nerd women, are they so under-represented in wargaming compared to other hobbies. I do not want to know why the 80 other women decided to do something else with their time.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 15:30:44


Post by: DominayTrix


 Frazzled wrote:



I've seen far, far more women and girls competing in tactical shooting competitions than tabletop wargaming. Frankly, they often also do quite well or better than your average shmo.



 Easy E wrote:
Let's face it, most wargamers do not WANT new players in their groups.



This probably explains it most. Even in traditionally "male" hobbies and interests, women can and will participate if the community is welcoming and it interests them. In my experience, the firearms community is extremely welcoming to new people. The wargaming community....not so much regardless of what you have in your downstairs bits box. Quick googling makes this look like an issue in general for model building that isn't gunpla. To be fair, not a lot of men are into painting people's nails and there is a lot of skill overlap there. Even down to watching endless videos to get effects that nobody outside that hobby will notice.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 15:57:34


Post by: Cyel


 Easy E wrote:
Let's face it, most wargamers do not WANT new players in their groups.



I don't know if it is my experience. Maybe it's different in the US where wargaming groups are much older than here in Poland. I think that every community of every game I have ever played was happy to have new players and everybody was welcome. Treating women weirdly, even if it happened was a tiny minority (individuals really), it's been mostly "wow, a girl gamer, that's so cool!, welcome!"

The thing with wargames was, though, that gamer girls I knew just weren't that much into "I will show you that my imaginary supersoldiers are better than yours or I will puke my brains out trying"

Some of you mention RPGs but it's a VERY different thing IMO. I've only ever dated girls from geeky communities and I got to know dozens of girls who played RPGs, or LARPs. With one of my ex's we played some RPG almost every day for a couple of years. Many of those female friends of mine tried out wargaming, enjoyed painting, but couldn't get invested in gaming itself. It was just flat and boring for them. Or at best not interesting enough to warrant the necessary commitment.

You see, RPGs are based on something totally different. Combat, even if it happens in RPG (it may as well not happen at all) is a set up, just a narrative tool. Nobody is really considering it a competition between playing parties. RPGs are based on emotions, relations, human interaction, intrigue. Wargames do not have these elements, hence they may be less attractive (emotionally bare?) to girl gamers.

It's just anecdotes, and I know my brain will try to find causation in this correlation even if there's none, but this explanation makes a lot of sense to me.

That's also what my gamer-wife has just told me

When with my friend, we ran a LARP/strategy game campaign for a couple of months, where players were rulers and nobles from warring fantasy states it was a success among female gamers too. I believe it was because we sprinkled all these army movements and military budgets (the startegy game part) with intrigue, personal games and actual human interaction (the LARP part, although there was a lot in-theme correspondence between players inbetween LARPs as well which definitely counts as interaction)

Maybe, as wargames surely lack this aspect of gaming, they could be enriched in such a way, somehow?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 16:26:48


Post by: Easy E


I think with "public" groups you are correct Cyel. They are welcoming as being a "public" group the goal is to grow and attract.

However, many wargames groups are not "public". It is literally a group of folks getting together in a friend's basement/garage and have been a social group for some time. They do not want to expand their group and are a "private" group and essentially closed. These groups will still go to Cons and Tourneys to game.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 16:34:52


Post by: Overread


Here's a thought

The big name in wargaming is Games Workshop. I'd argue in many nations (certainly the UK, in my experience), new people are far more likely to be recruited, introduced and inspired by GW products than any other wargaming brand. However through a large part of the Kirby era of GW, GW itself wasn't reaching out in the same way as many other fandoms.


Whilst many others were tapping into forums, facebook, myspace and the internet, GW tried, bungled it and spent the rest of the Kirby era fighting the internet rather than embracing it. As a result the biggest outreach firm was not using the biggest social revolution tool of the century (at least thus far).

Yes fans were using it, but a lot of fan stuff is basically floating around interacting with existing fans. It's more likely you'll find it once you are a gamer, but until you are you are far less likely to encounter it.



So perhaps one aspect of the difference is that the core parent and most visible firm wasn't doing active recruiting during a long period of time that other hobbies were. Heck if anything GW scaled back on official events and the like. Meanwhile things like CoD and League of Legends were holding big marketing conventions; big sponsored tournaments and the like.



So perhaps one reason that Wargaming is a little behind the curve is that the biggest name wasn't doing the outreach that many others were doing themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
I think with "public" groups you are correct Cyel. They are welcoming as being a "public" group the goal is to grow and attract.

However, many wargames groups are not "public". It is literally a group of folks getting together in a friend's basement/garage and have been a social group for some time. They do not want to expand their group and are a "private" group and essentially closed. These groups will still go to Cons and Tourneys to game.


My experience is not that they don't want new people; its that they don't quite know how to get them ,welcome them and keep them. Most game groups are welcoming to new people turning up, but they can often have issues with how to introduce someone and welcome them as part of the group. The talk in the Warmachine gorups identifies one aspect being when you've got a population of experienced people who don't know or are not aware how to - tone down their game for newbies to introduce them. And when you've very very few newbies joining at the same time it becomes harder still.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 17:46:10


Post by: Cronch


a bit off topic, but
Combat, even if it happens in RPG (it may as well not happen at all) is a set up, just a narrative tool

At this point D&D is more of a tactical game than Mordheim ever was


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 18:18:46


Post by: Cyel


Yeah, I also don't count D&D as actual RPG, as weird as it may sound It seems to be more of some kind of a dungeon crawler boardgame than actually Playing a Role.

(and yeah, I know it may be played differently)


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 18:21:59


Post by: NinthMusketeer


This thread is quite the mix of wisdom, non-sequitor, and cringe. It's become like a case study all of itself.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 20:02:19


Post by: cuda1179


Cronch wrote:
[
As for point one..I don't know how else to explain it. You seem to skip over the point every time.
Let's say you have 100 men and 100 women.
Of those, 30 men and 20 women are "nerds".
So yes, we are starting with smaller pool, but we do not concern ourselves with that aspect for now.
Of those 30 men, 10 go to RPG club, 10 go to MtG tournaments, 5 to boardgame nights and 5 visit GW/LGS to play. I am assuming there is no overlap for ease of demonstration.
Of those 20 women, 10 go to RPG club,6 to MtG tournaments, 3 to boardgame nighs and 1 vistis the LGS/GW.
What is the question is WHY only 1 of them went for wargames vs the more even split shown by men?
Those numbers are pure conjecture ofc, plug in whatever numbers you want, I am just curious why of the existing group of Nerd women, are they so under-represented in wargaming compared to other hobbies. I do not want to know why the 80 other women decided to do something else with their time.


Perhaps this is like the divide in video gamers. Men make up the majority of gamers out there, but there are a lot of women. How you define "gamer" is a bit different, depending on who is doing the research though. Many studies tend to lump in all the people that play Candy Crush in as "gamers". Honestly, I'm up in the air on that. However, if you look at the numbers, women are overrepresented in games like Candy Crush, and less so in games like Battlefront or Modern Warfare. Certain hobbies do kind of appeal to the opposite sex more.

Thinking about this some more, could weight be an issue? I'm 6'5" tall, and fairly strong, and even I've gotten arm strain from hauling around a pewter horde army. A 5'2" skinny gal wouldn't have a chance. With card games there's really not that much physical product to have to transport.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 20:13:37


Post by: Laughing Man


 cuda1179 wrote:
Thinking about this some more, could weight be an issue? I'm 6'5" tall, and fairly strong, and even I've gotten arm strain from hauling around a pewter horde army. A 5'2" skinny gal wouldn't have a chance. With card games there's really not that much physical product to have to transport.

I'm 5'10" and 130 pounds, and regularly carried two full Battlefoam bags of Khador models back in the day. I'm pretty sure most women can handle one or two full of plastic.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 20:35:53


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Maybe if armies were all metal that would be a factor.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 20:40:20


Post by: queen_annes_revenge


Because they don't want to? Or do we just no longer credit people with individual agency?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 20:42:35


Post by: cuda1179


 Laughing Man wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Thinking about this some more, could weight be an issue? I'm 6'5" tall, and fairly strong, and even I've gotten arm strain from hauling around a pewter horde army. A 5'2" skinny gal wouldn't have a chance. With card games there's really not that much physical product to have to transport.

I'm 5'10" and 130 pounds, and regularly carried two full Battlefoam bags of Khador models back in the day. I'm pretty sure most women can handle one or two full of plastic.


Well, yeah, but you also have to consider how likely it is that a woman will also be carrying around a purse large enough to be confused for a horse saddle, stocked with enough random items to stock a small store.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 20:43:38


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Lol yeah; because they are women they will not only carry a purse, but carry their miniatures in that purse! An inherent trait of the gender


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 21:09:24


Post by: Overread


 cuda1179 wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Thinking about this some more, could weight be an issue? I'm 6'5" tall, and fairly strong, and even I've gotten arm strain from hauling around a pewter horde army. A 5'2" skinny gal wouldn't have a chance. With card games there's really not that much physical product to have to transport.

I'm 5'10" and 130 pounds, and regularly carried two full Battlefoam bags of Khador models back in the day. I'm pretty sure most women can handle one or two full of plastic.


Well, yeah, but you also have to consider how likely it is that a woman will also be carrying around a purse large enough to be confused for a horse saddle, stocked with enough random items to stock a small store.


Have you seen the size of some handbags!?

Heck it wouldn't surprise me if there are saddle shaped designer handbags out there!


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 21:52:50


Post by: LumenPraebeo


I think most of the people in this thread are stretching it when y'all are constantly using the word violence/violent in association with tabletop/miniature wargaming. You'll know violence when you see it, and miniature wargaming is on the opposite end of violence. It's simply what its called - wargaming.

And if we are all to be perfectly honest and truthful to ourselves; in laymans terms, its playing pretend with tiny plastic dolls, exactly like how a five year old would.

Yes, I like playing pretend with tiny plastic dolls. I will readily admit this.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 22:16:00


Post by: A.T.


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I read articles like this and it feels like looking back in time, except it isn't.
It is.

Right at the start- "they're all white men, all 50 and older". Miniature wargaming was aimed at boys in the 70s, welcome to the past.

The article presents the game as pitting hapless new players against these ancient uncaring neckbeards as if no-one else has entered the hobby in-between... which for old napoleonic-style pewter model wargaming might well be true-ish, it seems to slip from one scene to another. Doesn't particularly match any of the crowds i've seen in GW stores of late, nor is there anything in the article discussing how most players get into the game in the first place as schoolkids drawing from the bank of mum and dad.


Also $100 for a starter army? $60 for a premier board game? Looking back in time indeed.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 22:24:16


Post by: kirotheavenger


Cronch wrote:


As for point one..I don't know how else to explain it. You seem to skip over the point every time.
Let's say you have 100 men and 100 women.
Of those, 30 men and 20 women are "nerds".
So yes, we are starting with smaller pool, but we do not concern ourselves with that aspect for now.
Of those 30 men, 10 go to RPG club, 10 go to MtG tournaments, 5 to boardgame nights and 5 visit GW/LGS to play. I am assuming there is no overlap for ease of demonstration.
Of those 20 women, 10 go to RPG club,6 to MtG tournaments, 3 to boardgame nighs and 1 vistis the LGS/GW.
What is the question is WHY only 1 of them went for wargames vs the more even split shown by men?

I made the point that men are more likely to be interested, the 30/20 in your example.
If you dont disagree with that point, why are you constantly disagreeing with it?
Further, I have never denied there are other factors. Quite the opposite I have agreed with it. That's why there's no disagreement on those aspects.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LumenPraebeo wrote:


Yes, I like playing pretend with tiny plastic dolls. I will readily admit this.

We know it's playing pretend with plastic dolls.
The point is what you're pretending to do.

There's a big difference between the grimdark future where there is only war and even the 'good guys' partake in slavery and genocide when it suits them.
And the world of happy magic where you can have little owl friends and go off and slay the evil wizard.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/11 23:59:04


Post by: LumenPraebeo


 kirotheavenger wrote:
There's a big difference between the grimdark future where there is only war and even the 'good guys' partake in slavery and genocide when it suits them.
And the world of happy magic where you can have little owl friends and go off and slay the evil wizard.


In a bigger picture, no. Not really.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 00:23:19


Post by: NinthMusketeer


A.T. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I read articles like this and it feels like looking back in time, except it isn't.
It is.

Right at the start- "they're all white men, all 50 and older". Miniature wargaming was aimed at boys in the 70s, welcome to the past.

The article presents the game as pitting hapless new players against these ancient uncaring neckbeards as if no-one else has entered the hobby in-between... which for old napoleonic-style pewter model wargaming might well be true-ish, it seems to slip from one scene to another. Doesn't particularly match any of the crowds i've seen in GW stores of late, nor is there anything in the article discussing how most players get into the game in the first place as schoolkids drawing from the bank of mum and dad.


Also $100 for a starter army? $60 for a premier board game? Looking back in time indeed.
You didn't read the article, you had a preconceived opinion on it and skimmed through to find a few bits to justify your dismissal. When taken out of context they certainly do paint an extreme picture, but also a dishonest one. This is an old, old tactic used to defend discrimination time and time again.

And really I am just holding this up as a textbook example; many people have done such in this thread. The irony is how it proves the point made in the article so well.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 01:55:57


Post by: Vulcan


 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's worth noting that although women earn less money on average, they spend significantly more money on average. So I'm not entirely sure the idea that women just don't have the money holds water.


True, to a point. A woman spends more on beauty and healthcare products than a man, on the average. Of course, her professional appearance is often much more important to her employer than a man's appearance as well. So long as the guy shaves and showers daily and keeps his hair neatish, he's good. The woman is judged - often subconsciously - on her hair care, makeup, etc. etc. etc. And then there's the extra expense of feminine hygiene products. All this adds up.

So... lower pay, more expenses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
I would once more point out, as Vulkan and Kiro obsessively focus on "the average" that in all my questions, I focus on the already nerdy women that do have the disposable income to play tabletop games, as they currently exist, in flesh, in CCG and board and rpg gaming circles. It's THOSE exceptional individuals that still avoid this one, particular kind of tabletop hobby, and so far the answer seems to be "war in title scares ladies off".


But yes, I know why the average woman doesn't play wargames, the same reason why almost no men ever touch the wargaming hobby, they're not interested in tabletop gaming at all. There is no mystery there.

My limited IRL observation and seeing so many online discussions unfold would suggest the issue isn't that the word "war" and idea of rolling dice to "kill" things scares girls off (they seem to have no big issue with disemboweling monsters in D&D which is usually way more graphic due to the narrative aspect than clinical, non-violent way of just removing soldier tokens from board in 40k) but rather than wargaming communities on average are unwelcoming either by being generally unwelcoming to new people or by being specifically unwelcoming to anyone that poses a "threat" to the status quo.


Now this is a rather different point that has been stated upthread. And I agree 100%, wargaming has done an extremely poor job of attracting these ladies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
Let's face it, most wargamers do not WANT new players in their groups. There is too big of a risk that they will come to the table with a different expectation of the game than you have. That leads to actual conflict and drama that no one wants. Most wargamers are in a very small, exclusive group of players in one of the people's garage or basement. Look at the old GW design team as an example!

Frequently, we spent too much time curating our game group to the people we actually WANT to play with. Therefore, we may not be that interested in expanding to new people once we get that group. New people are an unknown element. It may not even have to do with gender, race, or religion. Instead it comes down to WAAC, Fluffy, Casual, Tourney, etc. factors.

Heck, even on this board we see the disconnect between the Tourney Folks and the Filthy Casuals! In the wild, there is even more peril in this divide.



I was going to argue this, but then I remembered some VERY unwelcoming groups I tried to get into and... yeah, there is more truth to this than I care to admit. Certain groups do not want new players at all.

I might argue that saying 'most' is overstating things. The Game Nite group welcomed me in pretty quickly, after all, and we were always looking for new opponents to play against. After that, it's just a matter of calibrating expectations. Some players preferred fluffy games, so you bring fluff to play them. Others played harder so you bring harder options. If someone was testing a tournament army, you pull out all the stops. In short, you communicate your expectations.

Which...thinking about it... is probably something the socially awkward tend to be a bit bad at.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 03:31:02


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Everyone is bad at it, the socially adept are just confident at being bad at it


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 03:45:36


Post by: cuda1179


 Vulcan wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's worth noting that although women earn less money on average, they spend significantly more money on average. So I'm not entirely sure the idea that women just don't have the money holds water.


True, to a point. A woman spends more on beauty and healthcare products than a man, on the average. Of course, her professional appearance is often much more important to her employer than a man's appearance as well. So long as the guy shaves and showers daily and keeps his hair neatish, he's good. The woman is judged - often subconsciously - on her hair care, makeup, etc. etc. etc. And then there's the extra expense of feminine hygiene products. All this adds up.

So... lower pay, more expenses.



I'd just like to point out that the lower pay thing is a bit of a myth, especially when it comes to women that are still able to menstruate. According to the Obama 2012 jobs report data women under 35 earn 108% of what men do for working the same job. Women under 35 are also more likely than men to earn money undisclosed to the government. In other words, they are more likely to not report tips.

Also, according to Time magazine women in large cities in the US will out earn men by 20%. Larger cities are pretty much needed for the wargaming community to grow and thrive, as I can attest to, living in the rural Midwest.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 05:37:52


Post by: PondaNagura


As stated earlier in thread part of it may be generational divide in cultural/gender marketing trends and social peer pressure. D&D is mainstream in schools now. I had guy friends who were still closeted gamers in college because they thought they might not hookup if girls found out; and never considered those girls might have wanted to play.
How one is exposure to the hobby is a factor.
At a few conventions I'd see women playing x-wing who were introduced because of well, starwars...a pan-generational franchise with diverse characters in movies, books, comics, games, toys, shows, cosplay etc. Marketing out the wazoo. Similarly there were LotR players when the movies came out, but gradually died off in my area. Both systems have larger communities for their fanbase to geek over, and were introduced to the games through that.
GW stuff is wargaming first, a niche hobby. It's only in the last ~20yrs been consistently investing into other media to attract wider audiences. I've heard stories of people switching to minis after being introduced to 40k through the FFG rpgs, others after playing DoW and total war series. A few others who would play but the cost of entry is too much, they mainly stick to the videogames or dabble in proxy/poorhammer. X-wing and LotR boxed sets had a lower cost to start playing than GW/wmh, right?
My own experience of exposure other than some older relatives who were into model railroading and D&D, I only heard of 40k because it was trendy at my middle school for awhile, it wasn't as expensive then; and prior to that I played battletech with standees and a few miniatures; and I only knew about that because of the tv show I only caught some of the time. A combination of strong marketing, shared communities and luck. Historical isn't my thing, but I can't recall someone under 40+ playing them.

When I still frequented it my flgs had a few women painting 40k figs, but never really played there*, I never thought to ask how they learned about it. The painting sessions diminished after the store location downsized. The previous place was multistory and had areas for tabletops, boardgames, ccg and RPGs, weekends were fairly busy you could learn about new game systems by taking a break in the hallway. The newer space was 1/4 of the size, certain games were delegated to particular nights because of the limited tabletop space, and (ahem) less well ventilated; the bad-hygiene stereotype persists for a reason. I could barely stand it sometimes. Most people were chill mixed bag, but then there's the proverbial that guy(or two, or three) who'd chase away veterans and newcomers alike. Haven't been there in a while, so maybe it's changed again.

And there was the model-representation gap. One studiomate was interested in space marines until she found there were no women space marines, didn't like aesthetics of 3rd ed SoB, and got the longwinded lore-rant from...that guy.

Overall, like other formerly male-dominated spaces, it's likely just a matter time for others to come around. Exposure to the hobby from people/family, other media, coming in from other games, youtube painters, etc. My friends in other cities have seen a gradual increase in women participation, and we've also noticed groups having lower tolerance of putting up with that guy types who make everyone uncomfortable; correlation?

*From local meetups I notice there's more ladies-night or women only gaming groups. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a women wargamers, just not playing in the same public venues.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 05:40:36


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Vulcan wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's worth noting that although women earn less money on average, they spend significantly more money on average. So I'm not entirely sure the idea that women just don't have the money holds water.


True, to a point. A woman spends more on beauty and healthcare products than a man, on the average. Of course, her professional appearance is often much more important to her employer than a man's appearance as well. So long as the guy shaves and showers daily and keeps his hair neatish, he's good. The woman is judged - often subconsciously - on her hair care, makeup, etc. etc. etc. And then there's the extra expense of feminine hygiene products. All this adds up.

So... lower pay, more expenses.


I think that's changing. At least in my area of work there's increasingly a mix of women who both get themselves made up and have flawless hair styling, and those who look like they've just thrown a comb through their hair, tied it back and not put on any (or minimal) makeup. I'd argue that the latter group is often taken more seriously at a professional level than the former.

But I think preconceived notions are breaking down over time. During a recent engineering project worth 10's of millions of dollars I worked on I was struck when the gamut of head engineers and major stakeholders were in a room, how difficult it was to guess who was who based on gender, race, how they were dressed, who had the most expensive haircut, etc.

But obviously it's going to depend on the field you work and the location in the world you live. Even if you're a bloke in some areas it's important that you wear a reasonably expensive get up and have spent an hour each morning prettying yourself up if you want to get ahead.

However these days in many areas I think there's a perceived expectation that women will doll themselves up that doesn't always exist in reality, and if they showed up with the same level of personal care that your average man does it wouldn't hurt their chances.




Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 06:43:18


Post by: Cyel


https://www.livemint.com/mint-lounge/features/why-women-lose-at-chess-11601626319872.html - this may be an interesting read with opinions from female players, male players and scientists

Apparently the answer is : it's complicated and multifaceted


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 07:21:41


Post by: Jadenim


queen_annes_revenge wrote:Because they don't want to? Or do we just no longer credit people with individual agency?


At a population level? No, you don’t. This isn’t about any one individual, it’s about statistics, and statistically speaking there’s no reason (that we are aware of) that women should be less likely to play tabletop war games than similar pastimes such as RPGs, CCGs and board games (and arguably that “similarity” should take care of most of the “don’t want to”s). So the fact that there is a noticeable difference in the % of the population who participates in these activities requires explanation, as it shouldn’t be there.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's worth noting that although women earn less money on average, they spend significantly more money on average. So I'm not entirely sure the idea that women just don't have the money holds water.


True, to a point. A woman spends more on beauty and healthcare products than a man, on the average. Of course, her professional appearance is often much more important to her employer than a man's appearance as well. So long as the guy shaves and showers daily and keeps his hair neatish, he's good. The woman is judged - often subconsciously - on her hair care, makeup, etc. etc. etc. And then there's the extra expense of feminine hygiene products. All this adds up.

So... lower pay, more expenses.


I think that's changing. At least in my area of work there's increasingly a mix of women who both get themselves made up and have flawless hair styling, and those who look like they've just thrown a comb through their hair, tied it back and not put on any (or minimal) makeup. I'd argue that the latter group is often taken more seriously at a professional level than the former.


On the one hand, I’m glad to see that the expectation for women to be perfectly made up, fashionably dressed, etc. is reducing, because it was unfair and objectifying (harkening back to the old idea of the only reason to have a job is to attract a good husband nonsense), but it does seem that there is a flip side discrimination creeping in, where a professional woman is taken less seriously if she does want to put effort into her appearance. Almost like you have to be an unkempt nerd to prove that you’re dedicated to your field of study! I hate gate keeping…


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 07:54:27


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Jadenim wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's worth noting that although women earn less money on average, they spend significantly more money on average. So I'm not entirely sure the idea that women just don't have the money holds water.


True, to a point. A woman spends more on beauty and healthcare products than a man, on the average. Of course, her professional appearance is often much more important to her employer than a man's appearance as well. So long as the guy shaves and showers daily and keeps his hair neatish, he's good. The woman is judged - often subconsciously - on her hair care, makeup, etc. etc. etc. And then there's the extra expense of feminine hygiene products. All this adds up.

So... lower pay, more expenses.


I think that's changing. At least in my area of work there's increasingly a mix of women who both get themselves made up and have flawless hair styling, and those who look like they've just thrown a comb through their hair, tied it back and not put on any (or minimal) makeup. I'd argue that the latter group is often taken more seriously at a professional level than the former.


On the one hand, I’m glad to see that the expectation for women to be perfectly made up, fashionably dressed, etc. is reducing, because it was unfair and objectifying (harkening back to the old idea of the only reason to have a job is to attract a good husband nonsense), but it does seem that there is a flip side discrimination creeping in, where a professional woman is taken less seriously if she does want to put effort into her appearance. Almost like you have to be an unkempt nerd to prove that you’re dedicated to your field of study! I hate gate keeping…


I think you probably took my statement further than I meant it to be, men have the same thing happen to them.

I've seen (male) engineers dressed up in suits that no one takes seriously, and one that showed up wearing a rolling stones t-shirt and jeans that everyone respected and listened to. I've also seen a well dressed, well presented and soft spoken 5 foot-nothing Asian lady who was lead engineer on a big project and even though she didn't say much, she knew what she was talking about and people seemed to respect. And at another company I've encountered a woman in the same role who dressed like a construction worker.

People will always have some preconceived notions based on how you choose to present yourself, but I also think a lot of the perceived expectations are just that, perceived rather than real, and these days people have a lot of freedom in how they want to present themselves to the rest of the world.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 08:04:13


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Jadenim wrote:
statistically speaking there’s no reason (that we are aware of) that women should be less likely to play tabletop war games

Well that's not true, your premise falls flat at the first hurdle.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 09:31:14


Post by: queen_annes_revenge


That's such nonsense too. Are you asking the same questions for female dominated activities? Seamstressing, knitting, ballet, yoga, off the top of my head are activities likely to be female dominant, so my question stands, so what? But now we get to the meat of this issue that some folks don't like; that being the fact that men and women have inherent differences and one of the areas in which this manifests is in hobbies/interests.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 09:33:37


Post by: Overread


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Jadenim wrote:
statistically speaking there’s no reason (that we are aware of) that women should be less likely to play tabletop war games

Well that's not true, your premise falls flat at the first hurdle.


Except so far we've not found any evidence to prove that to be the case.
We've some guesswork, but in general we've nothing that has so far proven to define why it is that women are less represented in miniature wargaming over multiple other geeky hobbies - esp when games like RPGs these days are basically the same thing (you have models on the table - and a lot of the game revolves around combat - sometimes far more graphically described than in a wargame)


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 09:56:24


Post by: kirotheavenger


Sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't mean the data isn't there.

Honestly is you refuse to acknowledge differences between the portrayal of DnD and 40k I don't know what to say.

I think Queen Anne's Revenge put it best, you simply don't like the reality.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 09:58:05


Post by: Cronch


Cyel wrote:
https://www.livemint.com/mint-lounge/features/why-women-lose-at-chess-11601626319872.html - this may be an interesting read with opinions from female players, male players and scientists

Apparently the answer is : it's complicated and multifaceted

It would be if the whole article didn't quote only one scientific study, one titled "Explaining Male Predominance At The Apex Of Intellectual Achievement" none the less. The whole thing was literally talking about pay gap and then feelings. Which is fine, I guess men do have hard time controlling emotions so it's to be expected.
I guess it might also explain why so few women play wargames, I've seen so many grown men ragequit or just seethe it'd put me off too.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 10:03:22


Post by: A.T.


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You didn't read the article, you had a preconceived opinion on it and skimmed through to find a few bits to justify your dismissal.
When taken out of context they certainly do paint an extreme picture, but also a dishonest one. This is an old, old tactic used to defend discrimination time and time again.
I read the whole thing start to finish.

I also notice that you are replying to a position of your own construction rather than my own. Perhaps you have a preconceived opinion of my position, your reply certainly takes what I wrote out of context to paint an extreme picture, but also a dishonest one. This is an old, old tactic and so on and so forth.

To be honest I find it amusing that of all the posts made - like suggestions that women aren't physically strong enough to want to play the game and all that - you instead have a bone to pick with my statements about the way the article inaccurately describes the warhammer scene, target market, and onboarding efforts by mingling it with Esteness' boomer-exclusive napoleonic wargaming experiences.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 11:36:53


Post by: Overread


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't mean the data isn't there.

Honestly is you refuse to acknowledge differences between the portrayal of DnD and 40k I don't know what to say.

I think Queen Anne's Revenge put it best, you simply don't like the reality.


I'm not refuting the data that there are less women playing. I'm simply saying that we've not yet really established a reason for it that's clear.

A lot of the comments have been rather vague - eg its more violent or its more dedicated or requires carrying more weight - and other comments. Each one of which is generally being refuted by evidence of women having a larger percentage of show in other hobbies which have those very features. So far I don't think we've really landed on a solid reason why women should not ever want to wargame. The closest we get are ideas that the social interactions, presentation, advertising and such all have generally conspired together to at best not encourage and at worst to discourage women from joining into wargaming; or to maintain an engagement after an initial one or two experiences.

Which to me suggest that there is nothing inherent in wargaming as a hobby that prevents women engaging with it. The issues are more marketing and social ones of existing game clubs. Things that are not fixed elements but highly variable and things which can be changed, for the benefit of all, which would then result in an increased uptake.



Even just super simple things like having someone in the group dedicated to the role of being the greeter and introducer who makes sure newbies get along and find what info they need and such.



Again I've not seen any argument that really shows without fail how a wargame is inherently "anti female"


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 12:21:49


Post by: Cyel


Cronch wrote:
Cyel wrote:
https://www.livemint.com/mint-lounge/features/why-women-lose-at-chess-11601626319872.html - this may be an interesting read with opinions from female players, male players and scientists

Apparently the answer is : it's complicated and multifaceted

It would be if the whole article didn't quote only one scientific study, one titled "Explaining Male Predominance At The Apex Of Intellectual Achievement" none the less. The whole thing was literally talking about pay gap and then feelings. Which is fine, I guess men do have hard time controlling emotions so it's to be expected.
I guess it might also explain why so few women play wargames, I've seen so many grown men ragequit or just seethe it'd put me off too.


Well, if you have a study to the contrary on the topic of chess, please, share. Actually the most interesting thing I found in the article was what female players were saying. Because we can be mansplaining all day long, but you know...

I think it is obvious that women in chess are NOT less intelligent, it's absurd. But I can see how they may lack this totally obsessive commitment that men show all the time an that is required to go this final distance. At some point maybe they think "you know what, I don't care that much about some abstract game that proves nothing." In absence of other evidence I tend to see how it makes sense.

And wargames are built out of obsessive commitment - money, time, effort spent incomparable to video games or board games.

There was a post on the 40K forum here (State of 40k, I guess, I don't remember), where someone was saying that his partner didn't like 40k because there was no way of winning the game by means of negotiations, subterfuge or intrigue.

My wife loves Divinity2 split-screen but she never bothers with a bit more optimising - little things I see could be done better. She's not stupid, she's a computer programmer. She just doesn't care that much to push harder with something irrelevant IRL.

Some of you say that wargamers are perceived as nerdy and weird. But having spent a lot of time with LARPing groups I can say with confidence that a) there were wayyy more unsocial, geeky-cringy weridos doing LARPing than in wargaming b)LARPing is considered a much more cringe-inducing activity by outside groups (funnily including wargamers). And still female particiation has always been pretty close to 50%. But LARPs, unlike wargaming, are centered around human interaction, conversation, intrigue, subterfuge, conspiracy etc

So far I don't see any evidence that disproves that women ON AVERAGE (there are always outliers, it's called evolution)
a) don't share men's obsessive commitment to - even abstract - competition
b) appreciate when interpersonal stuff in recreated in games


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 12:41:20


Post by: Overread


I wonder if interpersonal stuff within games might be something GW could build into a wargame by means of a tighter narrative system. I know with Warcry they've done these new singleplayer campaigns where you're telling the story of your tribe through battles. Extending that into the main game and making your army more "your thing" could build into that. Sure each "game" would be a battle, but building around it in a way that lets you have meaningful story but at th esame time have random fights - could be interesting.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 15:39:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


A.T. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You didn't read the article, you had a preconceived opinion on it and skimmed through to find a few bits to justify your dismissal.
When taken out of context they certainly do paint an extreme picture, but also a dishonest one. This is an old, old tactic used to defend discrimination time and time again.
I read the whole thing start to finish.

I also notice that you are replying to a position of your own construction rather than my own. Perhaps you have a preconceived opinion of my position, your reply certainly takes what I wrote out of context to paint an extreme picture, but also a dishonest one. This is an old, old tactic and so on and so forth.

To be honest I find it amusing that of all the posts made - like suggestions that women aren't physically strong enough to want to play the game and all that - you instead have a bone to pick with my statements about the way the article inaccurately describes the warhammer scene, target market, and onboarding efforts by mingling it with Esteness' boomer-exclusive napoleonic wargaming experiences.
The article you describe is not the one that exists.

You do have a point though in that I called this out specifically. Unlike certain... other comments like what you referenced, the discrimination is not so overt. It is also less severe, but tricky in that it is dismissing criticism of discrimination rather than actively engaging itself. This is the form that is, broadly, a more relevant problem to most of the population because since it is 'second degree' it tends to be disregarded as a non-issue. Much like how posters on Dakka can get away with ridiculous amounts of insults so long as they are phrased in a passive-aggressive manner.

The most insidious part is those doing it may not even be aware. I believe that you see the article in the manner you describe.


Edit: In hindsight I was overly presumptive and phrased things in an antagonistic manner, and I apologize for that. I made poor choices about how to tackle this line of discussion and am not successfully communicating what I originally intended.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 17:22:17


Post by: Momotaro


You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 18:35:47


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 18:49:05


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?
I'd say the overwhelming majority of us know the dynamic whether we admit it or not; wargaming has a greater appeal to men than women, but the number of female players is reduced even below that due to a certain level of sexism, and these are overall average trends which are not applicable to every individual, store, or community.

On the whole we've known that from the start and this thread has been us dancing around the matter picking at our own individual threads of interest.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 19:39:40


Post by: cuda1179


I think we also need to consider biases within the women. Women are not saints just as men are not devils. I'm sure there are sociatal pressures from many angles that would bias women from wargaming even if we were the most welcome and open demographic ever. Part of that is not wanting to hang out with nerds, even if you are one. It reminds me of a study on fat acceptance. Women with the opinion that men should be interested in curvy women were themselves biased towards more fit men.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 19:46:56


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Yes, there’s a whole rich tapestry to explore. From personally experience, my wife was not as interested in Sisters of Battle (or any of the religious satire angle) because of her experience growing up in a religious household, which was very different from her brothers’. Made the over the top satire seem less over the top.

ButI couldn’t begin to extrapolate how much of the female gamer population would have had similar experiences.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 21:33:56


Post by: Dysartes


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think Queen Anne's Revenge put it best, you simply don't like the reality.


...using QAR and reality in the same sentence? With a straight face? Oh dear.

Anyway - there's a decently-large community of female miniature painters out there, with Victoria Lamb probably being of the first of the "big names" in that segment. If we were to try to get to the bottom of this, it would seem that some form of survey of a statistically-significant proportion of that market segment would seem a suitable starting point, though I'm not sure how many people you'd need to respond to hit that threshold, or even what the questions would need to be.

Possibly a similar survey of female players in the RPG, CCG and boardgame sectors as well.

We can speculate all we want, but we need to ask the affected people in order to gather suitable data.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:00:03


Post by: Irkjoe


 Dysartes wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think Queen Anne's Revenge put it best, you simply don't like the reality.


...using QAR and reality in the same sentence? With a straight face? Oh dear.

Anyway - there's a decently-large community of female miniature painters out there, with Victoria Lamb probably being of the first of the "big names" in that segment. If we were to try to get to the bottom of this, it would seem that some form of survey of a statistically-significant proportion of that market segment would seem a suitable starting point, though I'm not sure how many people you'd need to respond to hit that threshold, or even what the questions would need to be.


As opposed to the reality where evil white men are keeping poor women out of wargaming? For the sake of discussion, why is it bad that wargaming is primarily men and why do women need to be brought in? What's left for men? Couldn't even let them have the boy scouts.




Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:04:48


Post by: NinthMusketeer


It isn't bad, nor do women need to be brought in. The point being made is that there are women who WOULD play wargames but are driven away by people with a misogynistic slant. Don't know why you are on about boy scouts, unless they started up merit badges for wargaming they don't have anything to do with this (and I mean that non-sarcastically as for all I know they have).


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:06:46


Post by: Gert


GW does actually "sponsor" the UK Scouts Model Maker badge and sends out free hobby starter kits. Pretty neat IMO.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:15:17


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Ah, thank you for the info!


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:29:33


Post by: Momotaro


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


I really like you as a poster here, I agree with you, but maybe, with every respect to you, the question isn't for you to answer?

Maybe that even makes you - and me - part of the problem?

And yeah, I appreciate that's difficult to hear. I fix business problems for a living, and I've had to learn to just... listen. It can be tough to hear what you don't want to hear.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:35:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:37:54


Post by: Momotaro


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:43:37


Post by: Grimskul


 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

From my experience, that's tough to do.


Agreed. It's very easy for advocators to start speaking over the group they want to help rather than actually allowing the people they're supposedly representing to speak. It's also not a blanket monolithic entity for every person from that group to want the same things either so it's easy to overlook the nuances.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:45:00


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.

It isn't like women have not been asked before, or that they haven't answered.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:49:32


Post by: Irkjoe


@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:51:42


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 22:53:10


Post by: Momotaro


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well. I can think of two boyfriends I would cheerfully have put in concrete...


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 23:01:05


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well.
...is it so hard to accept that what worked for women with board games, electronic games, and RPGs is the same thing that will work for wargaming? It seems like you are demanding men ask for a solution and in the process are ignoring that we are well past the point when women provided one. From my perspective if someone were part of the problem it would be you for disregarding what we've already been shown to work, but I find it hard to reconcile that when so much of the community is still at the level of refusing to acknowledge that there even IS a problem. I think both of you are well on the side of solution and your criticism is misplaced. A bit like trying to fix a car's crack window when the engine is on fire; yes there may be a problem to address with the window but putting attention towards that now is counterproductive.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 23:06:04


Post by: Momotaro


 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?


You can play the games with anyone you want, and make as many fart and dong jokes as you like. Plenty of boardgame and RPG groups do that too

That's not the question here though. The question is why women play RPGs, play boargames and paint minis, but don't seem very well represented in the tabletop wargaming scene.

You don't worry about it - that's fine. You can bet that GW is asking why half its potential audience isn't interested


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 23:18:09


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Momotaro wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


I really like you as a poster here, I agree with you, but maybe, with every respect to you, the question isn't for you to answer?

Maybe that even makes you - and me - part of the problem?

And yeah, I appreciate that's difficult to hear. I fix business problems for a living, and I've had to learn to just... listen. It can be tough to hear what you don't want to hear.


I mean fair enough, but consider the fact that we have asked women, and that generally is the response, give or take specific local cultural factors. You can interact right now with women gamers on Facebook. Yes, I get the irony of speaking up for a community I am not a part of, but there sure aren’t a lot of women willing to self-identify as such on Dakka any more to speak up, are there?

My wife has pretty much said all those things. She’d only play Space Hulk and Battle for Macragge as Tyranids, for example, and won’t return to the FLGS due to creepers. I know representation matters to her because it comes up in other games we play, such as Forbidden Fortress, but the ship for her ever getting into 40k is long gone. My brother’s wife will play DND and Legion/Star Wars RPG but not with the public. Neither of them are willing to sign up here and talk about their experiences, though.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 23:22:56


Post by: Momotaro


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well.
...is it so hard to accept that what worked for women with board games, electronic games, and RPGs is the same thing that will work for wargaming? It seems like you are demanding men ask for a solution and in the process are ignoring that we are well past the point when women provided one. From my perspective if someone were part of the problem it would be you for disregarding what we've already been shown to work, but I find it hard to reconcile that when so much of the community is still at the level of refusing to acknowledge that there even IS a problem. I think both of you are well on the side of solution and your criticism is misplaced. A bit like trying to fix a car's crack window when the engine is on fire; yes there may be a problem to address with the window but putting attention towards that now is counterproductive.


I'm the problem because I ask people what they want? No.

I'm astonished that my stance - ask someone what they want, then provide it for them - should be so controversial.

It's claimed, jokingly, that the worst thing you can do to a software developer is tie them up, gag them, and make them watch a user interact with their new programme.

The user is always -always- a disaster. They use the software wrong, they try to use it for things it was never designed to do.

The point is this: the developer needs to learn that the problems the user want to solve, and the way they go about it, are NOT necessarily what the developer envisioned. Yet it's the user who decides whether the software is a commercial success or not. It is a painful lesson.

People will use tabletop games to scratch their particular itch, or they will use something else. Ask women what they want, and listen -listen- to the answer. I personally don't believe we HAVE done both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


I really like you as a poster here, I agree with you, but maybe, with every respect to you, the question isn't for you to answer?

Maybe that even makes you - and me - part of the problem?

And yeah, I appreciate that's difficult to hear. I fix business problems for a living, and I've had to learn to just... listen. It can be tough to hear what you don't want to hear.


I mean fair enough, but consider the fact that we have asked women, and that generally is the response, give or take specific local cultural factors. You can interact right now with women gamers on Facebook. Yes, I get the irony of speaking up for a community I am not a part of, but there sure aren’t a lot of women willing to self-identify as such on Dakka any more to speak up, are there?

My wife has pretty much said all those things. She’d only play Space Hulk and Battle for Macragge as Tyranids, for example, and won’t return to the FLGS due to creepers. I know representation matters to her because it comes up in other games we play, such as Forbidden Fortress, but the ship for her ever getting into 40k is long gone. My brother’s wife will play DND and Legion/Star Wars RPG but not with the public. Neither of them are willing to sign up here and talk about their experiences, though.



It's entirely possible that the FLGS and pickup game--centred model that GW pushes is inimical to women compared to home/family/friends RPG and board games. It may be that wargames attract a creepier/geekier male audience. Women may just like playing at war less than men. My wife isn't a gamer, and calls my gaming "Sylvanian Families" because I'm more interested in story and character these days. I've said many times that I'd have built dollshouses if wargames didn't exist.

Women differ as much as men.

I fancy that most tabletop gamers play at home too, but I have female friends who play(ed, before lockdown) pickup boardgames and RPGs at local games cafes. The wargames gap remains a bit baffling to me - I do accept your points though.

I've taken non-gaming girlfriends to cons, in the distant past. Some were ok with it, most hated it, one girl loved it and spent the day chatting to everyone about minis.

I'm pretty sure we're coming fom the same angle - I agreed with you in my first post. Point is - I'm prepared to admit I don't know.

I do corporate-level troubleshooting in my day to day life, and often walk into business cultures I initially don't understand. Fire and Rescue don't work like Legal. Ask and listen, accept and then you can begin to fix things..


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/12 23:57:05


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Momotaro wrote:
Spoiler:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Can you explain how it makes him part of the problem? I don't follow.


Because women can and will answer for themselves. If we don't listen, folks will answer with their wallet.

Remember how everyone said GW wasn't meeting fans' expectations 5-10 years ago? Same thing.

It's having the guts to ask "how can I help?" rather than saying "let me do this to help".

The solution is to find out what's required, rather than doing something that makes ME feel better

From my experience, that's tough to do.

Make sense?
Yes, but I don't see the connection to his point; he stated a basic solution (that he didn't just make up; it has been established real-world with similar gaming communities) that anyone can help enact then made a rhetorical question mocking the community for being unwilling to take such simple steps.


Because it's another man (I mean, unless it's Roberta rather than Robert the Inquisitor) deciding what's best for women.

Is it so hard to accept that what someone else wants may not be what you want for them? Learn to listen - what you hear may not be comfortable.

I say that as a father to two grown women as well.
...is it so hard to accept that what worked for women with board games, electronic games, and RPGs is the same thing that will work for wargaming? It seems like you are demanding men ask for a solution and in the process are ignoring that we are well past the point when women provided one. From my perspective if someone were part of the problem it would be you for disregarding what we've already been shown to work, but I find it hard to reconcile that when so much of the community is still at the level of refusing to acknowledge that there even IS a problem. I think both of you are well on the side of solution and your criticism is misplaced. A bit like trying to fix a car's crack window when the engine is on fire; yes there may be a problem to address with the window but putting attention towards that now is counterproductive.


I'm the problem because I ask people what they want? No.

I'm astonished that my stance - ask someone what they want, then provide it for them - should be so controversial.
I think I am communicating unclearly, because the message you are getting is most certainly not the one I wish to send. Let me try again; I entirely agree with your stance in regards to asking and providing, I just feel that it is not relevant to the initial comment because we are several steps past that. Women were asked, the solution was provided, and now it is a matter of applying the same solution to Wargaming.

You say it is important to listen, so listen. Women are still telling us the answer--it hasn't changed. That you seem to believe they haven't is the most concerning element out of all of this.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 00:45:44


Post by: Vulcan


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

The same holds true for just about every armored figure ever. Add breasts and you're sexualizing it, no breasts and there's no representation.

No-win scenario right there.

Fewer creepers in stores? Well, we do what we can. Sometimes the store refuses to kick out ANY customer, however obnoxious and unwanted. Sometimes creeper is a friend of the boss. Heck, sometimes he IS the boss. At which point all one can realistically do is find another venue, which we should do.

But WHEN we do, don't blame US that creeper-filled store we no longer attend is full of creepers. Blame the store management for allowing the creepers to stay and accumulate. There's literally nothing we can do if the creepers spend enough to keep creeper-store in business.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 00:48:32


Post by: ScarletRose


 Vulcan wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

No-win scenario right there.


That's exactly why there aren't any female stormcast right?

It sure is an unsolvable, unwinnable, unscalable strawman right there.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 01:08:59


Post by: Vulcan


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.


Ah... because he IS being attacked? Telling someone 'you're a misogynist and a horrible person' is an attack. ESPECIALLY in this day and age where such accusations can get you fired and blacklisted regardless of merit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ScarletRose wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

No-win scenario right there.


That's exactly why there aren't any female stormcast right?

It sure is an unsolvable, unwinnable, unscalable strawman right there.


No idea if there are female Stormcast. Don't play Age of Sigmarines. But the same applies there, just because there are no breasts on the breastplate doesn't mean there isn't a woman under there.

And there are, indeed, women who get offended if you DO put breasts on them.

So please, explain to me how this is a strawman.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 02:23:05


Post by: cuda1179


 ScarletRose wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Momotaro wrote:
You know, you're not going to get cooties if you ASK women what they want. Maybe we could try that...?


“Lady Space Marines, fewer creepers in store, and a commitment to better representation.”

Total nonstarter apparently?


Ever see a woman in modern body armor? Give her a gas mask and you'll never be able to tell her from her male counterparts of the same height. I imagine this would be even more true in hardshell power armor. EVERY Space Marine with a helmet on could be female and we'd never know.

And worse, put breasts on the breastplates of Space Marines and now you're sexualizing them which makes some women mad.

No-win scenario right there.


That's exactly why there aren't any female stormcast right?

It sure is an unsolvable, unwinnable, unscalable strawman right there.



This isn't really a strawman when such things have actually happened. A rather high-profile feminist, who shall not be named do to it being linked to politics, was once rightfully heckled for calling out video games. She argued that one video game was sexist because the female character was "female in name only" because she was literally just a reskinning of the male option animation. She simultaneously called out another game because they gave a female character a more female walk instead of just a reskinned animation.


As far as representation goes we've had that argument before. 40k is much more representative than you think. Ork, Necron, Tau, Tyranids, and Daemons are all sexless, uni-gender, or the genders are indistinguishable. Space Marines are a problem, and a lot of that is that they make up a vast bulk of the played armies. Sisters are also problematic for their lack of male representation. Imperiad Guard could use some more women in the ranks, I'll give you that, but with their new upgrade sprue that's less of an issue now.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 03:57:22


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 cuda1179 wrote:
As far as representation goes we've had that argument before. 40k is much more representative than you think. Ork, Necron, Tau, Tyranids, and Daemons are all sexless, uni-gender, or the genders are indistinguishable. Space Marines are a problem, and a lot of that is that they make up a vast bulk of the played armies. Sisters are also problematic for their lack of male representation. Imperiad Guard could use some more women in the ranks, I'll give you that, but with their new upgrade sprue that's less of an issue now.


There's also Eldar that have been mixed gender since as long as I've been playing.

IG have the new upgrade sprue but I can't help but feel it's just an excuse to charge more money for old tired Cadian models. Cadians are now more expensive than Tactical Marines, and you get 39 heads in a box with only 10 troopers.

A problem with representation in wargaming is always going to that historically men have taken a bigger part in war, so outside of fantastical settings you'll typically have more male soldiers by orders of magnitude, and fantasy games that are going for more of a historically grounded vibe will often go down the same path.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 05:56:30


Post by: queen_annes_revenge


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.


He's provided a statement backed up by evidence and posed an additional question. You should answer the question posed instead of deflecting to an attack on the questioner.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 07:09:15


Post by: NinthMusketeer


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
A problem with representation in wargaming is always going to that historically men have taken a bigger part in war, so outside of fantastical settings you'll typically have more male soldiers by orders of magnitude, and fantasy games that are going for more of a historically grounded vibe will often go down the same path.
A valid point. I think with GW dominating the market though, and running settings where realism isn't particularly relevant they have the leeway. And they are certainly using it. GW has been relatively good about treating genders equally in miniature form and have been tossing in female sculpts into SCE and StDs. Some are a bit meh but others are pretty dam sweet. If they keep making stuff looking like that new SCE named character I think everyone can be happy.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 07:09:55


Post by: Kilkrazy


It's perfectly reasonable to question people's motivations for statements they make.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 07:27:12


Post by: Cyel


This thread reminded me of a certain picture of mine, now more than 15y old It's really funny still. As I have said, I'va always had friends and partners from the nerdy community of gaming and fantasy. I've been very commited to have them in this hobby, but never managed to do so, despite running countless demos, buying and painting armies they liked the look of for them etc. Here I am doing some wargaming and my ex and some of our friends came to see how it goes (and those are nerdy girls - all of them avid RPG/LARP players, the redhead actually used to be a wargamer, but left when she split ways with her wargaming boyfriend)

Facial expressions are enough



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 11:05:40


Post by: Deadnight


Personally I think a lot of it is the social dynamics and 'types' of games being played. Also that our hobby has a significant minority of people who are somewhere on the 'socially awkward/creepy' scale. Imo plenty gamers make me uncomfortable and not want to hang round, it's worse for girls. I strongly suspect girls don't get involved for what they see of the community, rather than space marines don't have female astartes.

My wife played rugby. Until while bunch of injuries forced her out. Some of our best friends are the girls she played rugby with. Rugby girls really are the best. Girls can absolutely be filthy minded and girls can absolutely be competitive. So don't go thinking that low brow humour or winner/loser is a big deterrent.

They've been round ours, they love my hobby room,they think my painted doods are awesome. They're not against the hobby side or the models - in fact they think what I do is great. One took pictures of my display cabinets and shows people. Would they play? Thinking of 4 in particular, including my wife - 3 lean strongly to sports (and competition etc) while one leans more towards gaming (she plays gears etc semi-casually). If I put down blood bowl and umpire it (call out the dice resolutions let them know what/how something can be done) they're all on board, stemming both from gaming and sports. It's something we'll spend an evening on, no hassle. Other games though? Of the 4, I think one,maybe 2 could be persuaded into something like shadespire. I think necromunda or more complex games are beyond their level of interest. Mass battle games like 40k? No interest. Would they join me in going to a games club? I think one would enjoy our Friday night games, which are laid back, casual.and at a friend's house. It's as much chat and tea and 'friends hanging out' as it is dice rolling. Shed come back because it's a friendly, open and welcoming environment. Would she enjoy a 'pick up game' at the local store or club against a stranger, even knowing I was there as a 'friendly face'? I strongly doubt it.

It's been brought up - girls play rpgs, girls play video games, girls play board games. Girls game, Full stop. Let's not pretend otherwise. And I welcome that they do.

What you need to realise, when girls game, they socialise. 'I play games' equally means 'I play dnd', 'my friends who I hang around with play dnd' and 'I spend time with my dnd friends'. Much More than us guys. Just like our rugby girls, Theyll play the game but they stay for the community. That's as, if not more important than any in-game activity. Look at the dynamics of board games groups and rpg'ers. There's often a far stronger social dynamic and 'intimacy' in the group relationships (I don't necessarily mean dating when I talk about intimacy - intimate friendships/relationships are a cornerstone of girl friends) - more akin to a sports team than you get for us wargamers. For us guys, its different. We play solo. A room of 50 people will be 25 Islands of dice rolling and model moving. we often find games mechanically interesting, but everything else can be ignored - you often see jokes that are not unfounded, how folks treat their opponents like npc's and we are oblivious to everything else in the room. There might be banter but there is very little intimacy.

Girls will often approach it differently and will want a different dynamic. I've tried to get wargamers to go to the pub for a pint afterwards or to build friendships and relationships outside of the game. and no one wanted to join me. No one wanted to invest in the community. For guys, it's often OK- we are islands. Its actually funny- you see a lot of wargamers actively hostile to the idea of community, of putting exp into anything other building a better list. Look at the hostility narrative/home brewers get for asking to 'tone it down' or 'consider matching what the other guy has'. It comes from the same place 'I shouldnt care for, or give a damn about the person at the otherside of the board. Theor bad list, their problem. I'm.gonna wield all the sharp.edges of the game and beat him. I shouldn't have to help or accomodate' . As though the notion that 'its competitive' precludes this aspect of community. Even the baseline experience is often a variation on the theme of 'I should be able to play a game against a complete stranger, not need to say anything beyond the mechanical context of the game and still be able to complete the game'. For girls, this cut throatedness and social dynamic isn't something they'll find attractive.

You want more girls involved in gaming? Change the gaming culture.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 12:38:45


Post by: cuda1179


Deadnight, I think you nailed it there.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 13:10:31


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


You make it sound like wargaming is basically the social activity for introverts, which probably isn't too far off the mark

I guess if part of the appeal of wargaming is that it can be a less social form of socialising is that really a problem to be fixed, or just the way it is, being an activity more likely to appeal to a specific subset of the broader community?



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 13:44:00


Post by: Deadnight


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You make it sound like wargaming is basically the social activity for introverts, which probably isn't too far off the mark


Indeed, and this isn't a bad thing either. Its an observation, not a criticism.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I guess if part of the appeal of wargaming is that it can be a less social form of socialising is that really a problem to be fixed, or just the way it is, being an activity more likely to appeal to a specific subset of the broader community?



It is what it is. Its not necessarily 'a problem, and it certainly appeals to a specific subset of thr broader community. Again, not a problem. There is nothing wrong with a niche interest being catered to those within the niche, despite what some will say. If wargaming stays as it is, I'll still.enjoy my interpretation of it.

However, in the context of the conversation that's unfolded we are also talking about why those who don't find it appealing aren't interested (in this case, female players) and by extension broadening the appeal and expanding the community to get them imvolved.

That involves change.

You want to attract more female gamers?

Create a gaming eco system and a community that female gamers will find appealing. We live in the era of metoo, black lives matter, happypride and God knows how many other (legitimate) hashtags and undoubtedly some attention seeking ones. Sometimes rather than changing the window dressing (the game being played, or token representations within said games), if you want to get the big results you're asking for, you need to do the hard work of changing the culture behind the community. The rest will follow organically.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 13:53:57


Post by: Cronch


setting the rest of argument aside how is female (or PoC for the matter) representation "token"? I'm always amazed at how the most widely represented groups claim any representation of less-represented groups is "token". As if the existence of women is only justified if they serve a purpose for the men.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 14:19:32


Post by: Deadnight


Cronch wrote:
setting the rest of argument aside how is female (or PoC for the matter) representation "token"? I'm always amazed at how the most widely represented groups claim any representation of less-represented groups is "token". As if the existence of women is only justified if they serve a purpose for the men.



Oh please.

It Should be obvious what 'token' refers to in this case. Maybe I'm too old and cynical, but it Just seems too often, this is seen as an easy corporate ticktox to get ticked off.

I don't think I'm wrong in saying there's still far fewer of these types of minis than 'default white male', not that the latter is 'wrong' in and of itself. I'm looking at the reasoning and corporate politics behind why which models are made and how they are conceived and marketed. Often times those 'other' models are just a gesture. A token gesture. While their inclusion is good, and meaningful, and definitely better in more recent than years, it doesn't necessarily bring about the changes people are demanding. Hence what I was referring to with a deeper need to change our gaming culture itself, with references to some of the current cultural shifts that are taking place right now, all of which, for the record are things I strongly agree with.

And the last line of your post is completely unwarranted. Its got nothing to.do with what I've been saying and frankly I find it coming close to an unwarranted misconstruction of my point and an oblique and indirect personal attack to boot.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 14:37:29


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 cuda1179 wrote:
Deadnight, I think you nailed it there.
Indeed, though I think he (unintentionally) overgeneralizes male wargaming culture a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadnight wrote:
And the last line of your post is completely unwarranted. Its got nothing to.do with what I've been saying and frankly I find it coming close to an unwarranted misconstruction of my point and an oblique and indirect personal attack to boot.
FWIW I read it the same way.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 17:36:10


Post by: cuda1179


Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 18:24:31


Post by: Overread


 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.


Technically its the Pound £

Honestly GW has approached broadening their scope by not dulling their content or changing it if at all really. They've gone the social pathway of outreach, which in theory should see an increase in diversity with minimal loss of customers (if any detectable loss at all).


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 18:37:07


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.
FWIW I think that's a great question to ask.

To my eyes the goal is, as ever, expanding the community. If wargaming gets more popular we all win. While the greater appeal to men (for a variety of reasons) is going to see a male-dominated community regardless we can see from other areas of gaming that there is an untapped market for significant numbers of women as well. Those are potential members of the community, and customers for companies, that are on the sidelines.

As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.

GW is a business, so I guess their biggest concern will always be the all mighty dollar.


Technically its the Pound £
But they use the metric system so shouldn't it be the Kilogram?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 19:07:43


Post by: cuda1179


 NinthMusketeer wrote:


As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.


While I am sure that some men would leave just because of an uptick in women players, what I really meant was that what if the marketing/store atmosphere/etc were changed to attract more women. Anytime you change to appeal more to one demographic you lose a bit of another. This effect can be seen in something as mundane as switching the color pallet on an advertisement. It's not that the product is seen as worse, just different.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 19:11:46


Post by: Overread


 NinthMusketeer wrote:


As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.




I can appreciate value for social groups isolating themselves - like with like - within reason. Sometimes it is nice just to have a "lads/gals night out" etc... So I see no problem with single gender social groups.

I think the key is that such things become an optional side rather than a mandatory one.


To pick a neat example, at one time pubs were men only. Women were not allowed within pubs. It was an enforced mono-gender culture and there was no choice.
Today both enjoy the use of pubs. In fact the majority of the time its multigender the whole time.

And yet we also still have stag and hen nights. We still have lads and gals nights out etc....

They are an optional aspect of the social groups.



So for wargames I've no problem if some groups remain mono-gender or have a mono-gender night/evening/event every so often etc... Provided that, at large, groups are welcoming to women.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 19:13:29


Post by: NinthMusketeer


@Cuda I'm not sure about that. To take the concept to an abstract level, does going from greyscale advertising to full color advertising make it less appealing to a certain demographic?

Bringing it back down to the practical; if there are customers pushed away by more diverse races & genders in promotional material, were those even people we wanted as part of the community in the first place? To put it bluntly how bigoted does someone have to be to leave wargaming over that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:


As for the concern of men leaving the hobby because women join it, is there any precedent for that happening? I have never heard of the notion before so I really have no idea. Regardless, if men did leave for that reason it would (to me and I suspect many others) be more of a benefit than a loss. Someone who would abandon wargaming for that reason is not someone who I would want to game with. Though obviously others may have a different opinion.




I can appreciate value for social groups isolating themselves - like with like - within reason. Sometimes it is nice just to have a "lads/gals night out" etc... So I see no problem with single gender social groups.

I think the key is that such things become an optional side rather than a mandatory one.


To pick a neat example, at one time pubs were men only. Women were not allowed within pubs. It was an enforced mono-gender culture and there was no choice.
Today both enjoy the use of pubs. In fact the majority of the time its multigender the whole time.

And yet we also still have stag and hen nights. We still have lads and gals nights out etc....

They are an optional aspect of the social groups.



So for wargames I've no problem if some groups remain mono-gender or have a mono-gender night/evening/event every so often etc... Provided that, at large, groups are welcoming to women.
A great point.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 19:22:43


Post by: PondaNagura


Game companies absolutely have the monetary incentive to grow and sustain a player basis to keep in business, same with brick and mortar shop owners.

I don't think it's diversity for diversity sake, but why wouldn't we want more people(anyone) who are keen to geek around with in this niche corner of the world? Wargames are social activities, why do join them if you don't like people?

There are other areas online this article is being discussed, by women , and the consensus from ones who do/want to play, don't feel welcomed in existing spaces or have been actively chased away. They buy online or minimize flgs trips, and play in trusted groups. I'm sure some of us haven't always felt welcome. I'd want more people to wargame and modelcraft with, and might given some new places opening up again. It'd suck to sink hundreds if not thousands of dollars into a game system no one else wants to play, or play against you...
If some guys leave because women or PoC want to join, are those really people we're going to miss in the long run?
If it does turn out that the majority of guy wargamers would (rage)quit because others came into their space and the hobby imploded...I'd start re-examining some life choices. I'd still play, just with different people, and branch out to try new things? Like the squats, life is too short.

From observational experience of growth and those around me, people who are averse to changing environments or social dynamics often have other issues they should probably be dealing with, usually some kind of trauma. They aren't living their best life, using the hobby as a semi-functioning coping instead of investing in actual help, and they don't ask for help because perceptions of weakness? It's one thing if it's localized to self-destructive behavior, but quite another when it impacts other people's experiences. Like alcoholism. I don't mean to sound facetious about seeing counselors or therapies, those are tools, much like fine tip brushes for painting eyes...some people just avoid painting eyepieces.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 20:05:31


Post by: kirotheavenger


If you change something it's necessarily not what attracted people to it in the first place.
That change may be minor and not important, or it may be major.

You mentioned black and white vs colour. I have an interest in history and there are absolutely people that dislike colourised images as they feel it changes the original B&W too much.
They don't leave the historical interest groups, but they do avoid colourised images.

Applying that specifically to wargaming, it was mentioned a key factor that deters many women is the 'culture of strangers' around wargaming. You pick up and play without really getting to know your opponent or making a connection beyond the tabletop.
There are many existing wargamers that would not like that culture to change. Speaking for myself, I'm very uncomfortable inserting myself into a new social group and the expectation that I would need to do so to enjoy wargames would stop me.
In fact, it's why I don't play DnD.

So, given that, yes it's true that more players = better. But would changing that culture attract more players than it deterred?
I would argue likely not, RPGs like DnD are better suited to a tight community dynamic and I think wargames would struggle to poach those players.
Leading them to driving off people that would be attracted the current culture without gaining much as a return.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 20:28:27


Post by: Overread


Yes but this isn't you joining a new social group, its about your group accepting 1 person new every so often; perhaps 2 or 3 now and then. Or even doing a demo day and attracting several new people.

That wouldn't stop you playing with the people you know, it would just slowly extend your circle of social interactions.



No/few groups are going to grow in a massive way. This is still a niche hobby and mass growth is unlikely.


That said we are also talking in the general sense; there will certainly and always be groups that form that don't work toward adding others. Group by group there will be those that never expand beyond a few friends; those that don't want to make a club and just want to be a few friends having a game.

Or perhaps your group will grow but you'll have classic nights where the old guard get together for fun alone.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/13 22:10:25


Post by: kirotheavenger


I don't think you really grasped the point I was making.

We do accept new players occasionally, although those new players are almost always men. So from the context of this thread I'm guessing thats not actually what you mean.

Clearly, increasing the numbers/proportion of women is going to take more than just a willingness to accept new players.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/14 01:09:00


Post by: Vulcan


 PondaNagura wrote:

From observational experience of growth and those around me, people who are averse to changing environments or social dynamics often have other issues they should probably be dealing with, usually some kind of trauma. They aren't living their best life, using the hobby as a semi-functioning coping instead of investing in actual help, and they don't ask for help because perceptions of weakness? It's one thing if it's localized to self-destructive behavior, but quite another when it impacts other people's experiences. Like alcoholism. I don't mean to sound facetious about seeing counselors or therapies, those are tools, much like fine tip brushes for painting eyes...some people just avoid painting eyepieces.


This is an excellent point, especially in light of America's past failure to recognize mental health issues at all, and general reluctance to do so even now. It's a subset of the overall health care debate and thus has become heavily politicized and we can't discuss it further here, but it does contribute to the issue at hand.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/14 02:42:06


Post by: Voss


Cyel wrote:
This thread reminded me of a certain picture of mine, now more than 15y old It's really funny still. As I have said, I'va always had friends and partners from the nerdy community of gaming and fantasy. I've been very commited to have them in this hobby, but never managed to do so, despite running countless demos, buying and painting armies they liked the look of for them etc. Here I am doing some wargaming and my ex and some of our friends came to see how it goes (and those are nerdy girls - all of them avid RPG/LARP players, the redhead actually used to be a wargamer, but left when she split ways with her wargaming boyfriend)

Facial expressions are enough



Yep. Watching someone else move models around isn't very engaging. They'd probably have very different expressions if they were involved rather than an audience to a two person game.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/14 08:07:14


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Irkjoe wrote:

As opposed to the reality where evil white men are keeping poor women out of wargaming? For the sake of discussion, why is it bad that wargaming is primarily men and why do women need to be brought in? What's left for men? Couldn't even let them have the boy scouts.


Well an activity doesn't have to be mono gender to be for men. Go to an all male group if you want to escape women. Can be knitting if you like, get darning your socks like a bloke from the 50's. Any activity in its execution can be for just men, but the existence of female or mixed groups doing the same thing shouldn't affect you. But certainly companies would like all segments of the market to be open to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Devils advocate question here. What is the ultimate goal? Is the goal to have the game as diverse as the general population, or is the goal to have as many people playing as possible? Those things might not be the same. Tripling the number of female 40k players might result in a 10% loss in males, with a net loss in player base.


For me I want as many people playing as possible. Hopefully a variety of games and not just GW. I would like the hobby I have spent many a year in to grow in numbers and have a wide gamut of people play making it easier to find opponents and friends I get along with. I think a more diverse baseline of players gives more opportunity for growth.

If having a more diverse group means some leave (or form their own little groups), I am fine with that as the types of people I get along with don't tend to be the ones that would retreat into ivory towers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How have we gone 8 pages with no duffleblog links...
https://www.duffelblog.com/p/navy-considers-crotch-level-rank


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 05:35:53


Post by: LumenPraebeo


Cyel wrote:
I think it is obvious that women in chess are NOT less intelligent, it's absurd. But I can see how they may lack this totally obsessive commitment that men show all the time an that is required to go this final distance. At some point maybe they think "you know what, I don't care that much about some abstract game that proves nothing." In absence of other evidence I tend to see how it makes sense.

And wargames are built out of obsessive commitment - money, time, effort spent incomparable to video games or board games.

There was a post on the 40K forum here (State of 40k, I guess, I don't remember), where someone was saying that his partner didn't like 40k because there was no way of winning the game by means of negotiations, subterfuge or intrigue.

My wife loves Divinity2 split-screen but she never bothers with a bit more optimising - little things I see could be done better. She's not stupid, she's a computer programmer. She just doesn't care that much to push harder with something irrelevant IRL.

Some of you say that wargamers are perceived as nerdy and weird. But having spent a lot of time with LARPing groups I can say with confidence that a) there were wayyy more unsocial, geeky-cringy weridos doing LARPing than in wargaming b)LARPing is considered a much more cringe-inducing activity by outside groups (funnily including wargamers). And still female particiation has always been pretty close to 50%. But LARPs, unlike wargaming, are centered around human interaction, conversation, intrigue, subterfuge, conspiracy etc

So far I don't see any evidence that disproves that women ON AVERAGE (there are always outliers, it's called evolution)
a) don't share men's obsessive commitment to - even abstract - competition
b) appreciate when interpersonal stuff in recreated in games


I agree with everything said here. Its a perspective I think a lot of people don't fathom. That being said, I think it is a good thing that we think about these things, and its a good thing that we ask these questions. If there is a way we can get more fans and players into wargaming, it can lead to good things for both wargaming companies, and current players. Any time any hobby or interest has exploded and became a mainstream industry, the stuff that has come out of such things have improved dramatically. I for one would love to see WH40K evolve into something even better than it is right now. Or even see something come out that would draw me more than 40K does.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 06:01:06


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Well said sir!


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 07:54:23


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Deadnight wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You make it sound like wargaming is basically the social activity for introverts, which probably isn't too far off the mark


Indeed, and this isn't a bad thing either. Its an observation, not a criticism.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I guess if part of the appeal of wargaming is that it can be a less social form of socialising is that really a problem to be fixed, or just the way it is, being an activity more likely to appeal to a specific subset of the broader community?



It is what it is. Its not necessarily 'a problem, and it certainly appeals to a specific subset of thr broader community. Again, not a problem. There is nothing wrong with a niche interest being catered to those within the niche, despite what some will say. If wargaming stays as it is, I'll still.enjoy my interpretation of it.

However, in the context of the conversation that's unfolded we are also talking about why those who don't find it appealing aren't interested (in this case, female players) and by extension broadening the appeal and expanding the community to get them imvolved.

That involves change.

You want to attract more female gamers?

Create a gaming eco system and a community that female gamers will find appealing. We live in the era of metoo, black lives matter, happypride and God knows how many other (legitimate) hashtags and undoubtedly some attention seeking ones. Sometimes rather than changing the window dressing (the game being played, or token representations within said games), if you want to get the big results you're asking for, you need to do the hard work of changing the culture behind the community. The rest will follow organically.


Alternatively we need more introverted women who also want less sociable social activities


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 14:29:02


Post by: Easy E


Adding more RPG Lite into wargames would be a great step, especially at the skirmish level.

I recall seeing the recap of an INQ28 game* where the two sides resolve the scenario and did not shoot at each other or try to hit each other with a hammer once! They resolved the entire scenario via role-playing and talking! Mind blown! It opened my eyes to how much RPG Lite we could add to wargames if designers really wanted to.



*= I am sure it was at one of Commissar Molotov's events back in the day but do not recall who was participating. They maybe around here on the forums. They had all built and fluffed out their retinues over the course of the previous few months, so each Inquisitor and warband had a very strong sense of character to them.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 14:48:06


Post by: A.T.


 Easy E wrote:
I recall seeing the recap of an INQ28 game* where the two sides resolve the scenario and did not shoot at each other or try to hit each other with a hammer once! They resolved the entire scenario via role-playing and talking! Mind blown! It opened my eyes to how much RPG Lite we could add to wargames if designers really wanted to.
It comes down to the difference between expanding your audience and moving your target audience (or fragmenting your game into different versions).

Something like the recent upsurge of interest in chess would be an example of expanding the appeal. Same game but a lot of work done with presentation and accessibility.

At the other end of the spectrum you could replace all of the dice rolling in 40k with a dance off, gain some players who wouldn't have played it before and lose some existing players. Not easy to have your cake and eat it while making those kinds of changes - if you have a game which is too social for some and too unsocial for others, too complex for some and too simple for others, and so on you generally can't go both ways.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 16:50:31


Post by: BlackoCatto


 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable to question people's motivations for statements they make.


As long as you answer what is a reasonable question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As well, Introversion is not inherently bad. If anything, it would be just as inherently bad if so as extroversion.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 17:30:57


Post by: NinthMusketeer


The thing is, quite frequently the question someone literally asks is not the question they want an answer to. There's a lot to the dynamic of why, but it is common in conversation. From his post I got the distinct sense that it wasn't really about a proposed solution, and he definitely seemed agitated so I felt it best to get to the bottom of that first. I wasn't trying to mock or anything like that, it was a legitimate attempt at understanding.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 17:41:16


Post by: BlackoCatto


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The thing is, quite frequently the question someone literally asks is not the question they want an answer to. There's a lot to the dynamic of why, but it is common in conversation. From his post I got the distinct sense that it wasn't really about a proposed solution, and he definitely seemed agitated so I felt it best to get to the bottom of that first. I wasn't trying to mock or anything like that, it was a legitimate attempt at understanding.


Or you just wanted to pose doubt in the question. If you wanted to get to the bottom of it, save it for a PM.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/15 18:08:37


Post by: NinthMusketeer


No, I really just wanted to better understand his position and the answer he was looking for.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/16 03:14:48


Post by: LumenPraebeo


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, I really just wanted to better understand his position and the answer he was looking for.


Sarcasm. So savage.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/16 04:56:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I wasn't being sarcastic.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/16 06:07:09


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No, I really just wanted to better understand his position and the answer he was looking for.
It more or less seemed like you were trying to undermine the question and validity through the person rather then actually discussing the topic at hand. It's attacking the person and not the argument.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/16 07:15:51


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I like how some vague assertion of assumed hostility is worth talking about, but the guy literally insulting me outright isn't worth a word.

It more or less seems like you guys have a vendetta against me and it doesn't matter what I say or said. Because feth the topic, right?

No wonder women want no part in this community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
@NinthMusketeer It is a male focused, male dominated hobby so it isn't really a big issue if a small number of women are put off; there's this silly trend were media invent problems in every corner of life because "diversity".

If a group of players or the majority decide they don't want to play with women then that's their decision, conversely, if women find the men weird or boorish and decide not to play then that's just it; you can't really do anything about it. You will never make everybody happy, especially not the people who write these articles.

Lets entertain it though, what is your solution? Assume we have large groups of men who are a confluence of anti-social, weird, boorish, wargaming fanatics who aren't too concerned with how women feel about the hobby or just want to get away from them for a little while. How will you change them?
I think the first step would be walking things back to why you are responding with such hostility in the first place--do you feel attacked? Why? It may not be your intent but it certainly reads like that to me.
For reference, this is my apparently egregious post.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/16 12:58:23


Post by: LumenPraebeo


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I wasn't being sarcastic.


I know. woosh. lol


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/16 15:07:26


Post by: Pacific


Frazzled wrote:The wife always noted that war-gaming events physically smelled bad and that whenever she came in the looks would creep her out.

She did not get this vibe taking the Boy to card or other tournaments, only when visiting me at a 40K tournament.
.


My better half has attended a few bring'n'buy hobby events with me and said the same thing about the smell/atmosphere. Sadly, it is a curse of our hobby (although some areas are worse than others!) and I don't know whether its just a case that blokes are more prepared to put up with the fog?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But it seems to be focussed more on the gaming side of things, rather than the hobby as a whole.
*snip*
I know a fair few of the Dreded Wimmins involved in the hobby. Not all of them bother with the game, being instead into the art and painting side of things.


I follow a fair amount of artists on Twitter (ones that you could class as professionals with the quality of their work), what has become apparent to me over the past few years is how many of these are now women. I would say it's gone up by a fair proportion compared to how things were 4-5 years ago?

To contrast this, in wargaming groups I frequent (usually Epic, Horus Heresy, Infinity etc.) there seem to be very few women. Not none at all, but definitely seems like a very small minority compared to blokes.




Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/16 15:38:46


Post by: Paint it Pink


Okay, late to the party (thread) again, but not late as in the late Paint-it-Pink, kicked the bucket, died, and gone kind of late. So all is good.

Anyway, this has been an interesting thread. I note the usual problems when a long discussion starts on the internet where nuance of things like tone are completely lost, but otherwise pretty civil

I'm not much of a Dakka contributor. i like what I like, and I'm not into GW 40K. Which brings me to my opinion.

Cost of entry.

Not just the money, but all the hidden costs for a woman that include smelly young men.

I'm a retired nurse therapist and my sense of smell is not so great, but my partner, she has a nose for smells. So when I break a piece of chocolate to eat she can smell it from across the room. Whereas I have to sniff it to enjoy the pleasant aroma.

OTOH, a dripping tap drives me nuts, whereas my beloved is blithely unaware of the drip, drip, drip. I illustrate both of these for the reason that women are supposedly more sensitive to smells and sounds.

But the answer is that women are not all created the same.

So when I say cost, I include all the stares I get when I go into a WH store or FLGS where the male assistants have no clue how long I've been making and painting models, or playing games and assume I know nothing.

I used to say I was a BattleTech player, and whip out my ipod and show them pictures of my battlemechs back in the day. But that day was so long ago I can barely remember the last time I went into a store. Or for that matter a wargames club.

The reason for my lack of involvement int he wider wargaming community is down to the hidden costs, or if you prefer a plainer description, the problem of being female, and in my case old enough to be the mother and in some cases grandmother of the boys/men playing.

I know a lot of women who play RPGs and board games, but only a handful like me who actually have an interest in playing with painted miniatures. Though truth be told, I'm mostly into just painting the miniatures.

It's a sad life, but it's my life.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 14:09:28


Post by: AustonT


Pacific wrote:
Frazzled wrote:The wife always noted that war-gaming events physically smelled bad and that whenever she came in the looks would creep her out.

She did not get this vibe taking the Boy to card or other tournaments, only when visiting me at a 40K tournament.
.


My better half has attended a few bring'n'buy hobby events with me and said the same thing about the smell/atmosphere. Sadly, it is a curse of our hobby (although some areas are worse than others!) and I don't know whether its just a case that blokes are more prepared to put up with the fog?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But it seems to be focussed more on the gaming side of things, rather than the hobby as a whole.
*snip*
I know a fair few of the Dreded Wimmins involved in the hobby. Not all of them bother with the game, being instead into the art and painting side of things.


I follow a fair amount of artists on Twitter (ones that you could class as professionals with the quality of their work), what has become apparent to me over the past few years is how many of these are now women. I would say it's gone up by a fair proportion compared to how things were 4-5 years ago?

To contrast this, in wargaming groups I frequent (usually Epic, Horus Heresy, Infinity etc.) there seem to be very few women. Not none at all, but definitely seems like a very small minority compared to blokes.



So my wife had the EXACT reaction that Frazzled did to the games store I took her to the first time, like 12 years ago or something. I don’t think it’s unique. I also know that she has a much more sensitive sense of smell than I do and I’m almost certain there’s a sex divide on olfactory sensitivity. My wife is also the person that basically dragged me to the Warhammer cafe in Dallas so she understands that while it’s not her hobby there’s no need to be actively hostile to it.

To your point about the artist on Twitter; and I’ll extend it to YouTube the female participation has gone up. I distinctly remember when JoeyBerry started up in the hobby from zero base; and went on to join the team for Total War Warhammer. It’s anecdotal but it also shows there’s not really a barrier to both learning and becoming quite prominent in the community.

From some of the comments I’ve sort of skimmed you see the reason people gatekeep their hobbies. Some people think the fundamental fabric of the game should change. Some people don’t like dark quasi fascist war torn futures should we make 40k into in the future Friendship is Magic? Lady space marines aren’t going to make women flock to a game, and more broadly and industry that doesn’t interest them already. Wargaming falls into a category of interest that I think a low percentage of women are really interested in. Not a none percentage; but a small one. Changing the background canon of a best selling model line to cater to a marginal percentage of potential customers is financially unsuitable. There’s no reason the game designers can’t change the fluff; it’s just fluff. I could also point out that being REPRESENTED in the game world isn’t necessarily what people want. I dunno if anyone noticed but I don’t see a lot of actual Orks at the gaming table. I’ve also frequently said that if you find three SoB cosplayers at least one of them is a dude. The model lines attract people who DONT look like the models so that’s a poor excuse for why women won’t come to the game.

The essential point is that women either like or don’t like the hobby; and wargamers are…well at best fringe. I’d be interested to see what the total percentage of all males are wargamers vs what percentage of all females are wargamers and then draw a parallel to traditionally female hobbies; and other fairly fringe hobbies like MTG or DND and see the comparison. There’s a pretty large chance it was never gatekeeping; and just a lack of interest by women.





Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 14:37:26


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 15:39:11


Post by: LunarSol


 AustonT wrote:
I dunno if anyone noticed but I don’t see a lot of actual Orks at the gaming table.


There is no group of players better represented by their faction than Ork players.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 15:52:27


Post by: Ouze



So my wife had the EXACT reaction that Frazzled did to the games store I took her to the first time, like 12 years ago or something. I don’t think it’s unique. I also know that she has a much more sensitive sense of smell than I do and I’m almost certain there’s a sex divide on olfactory sensitivity.


I know this isn't what the thread is about but

A.) I have almost no sense of smell
B.) My wife can also smell much better than I can, although it's a low bar in my case
C.) I've only actually been to 40K gaming stores 4 times, and even I could smell them. Is it a cliche if it's true?


One of the very few people I follow on Tiktok, and the only 40K person, is a lady who plays Orks. Maybe they are uncommon because it's so many models to transport and move? How common are horde armies on the tabletop in general?

Maybe the reason more ladies aren't interested in playing wargames like 40K is because 40K is a deeply, deeply unfun game?




Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 16:19:56


Post by: LunarSol


I'm fortunate to have access to a very clean store in which smell is never a problem outside certain people. Fortunately, even there the social climate has shifted more towards encouraging these people to take better care of themselves, so even that is less common. I definitely have stories though, but generally speaking I think the growth in games and comics and other nerdery has encouraged stores to put in the effort to be brighter and more open to the public. The dark, smelly basement stores don't feel nearly as common.

There's still definitely a divide. In my own town, there's a store in which I regularly go with my daughter and test out games. She chats with the staff and is welcome as can be. The other store definitely reacts with a bit of bewilderment at why I'd bring that "thing" in with me. I can't tell how much she can tell the difference, but I definitely prefer to take her where she's accepted.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 16:25:48


Post by: A.T.


 Ouze wrote:
C.) I've only actually been to 40K gaming stores 4 times, and even I could smell them. Is it a cliche if it's true?
I have yet to find myself in a store that smells as strongly as any given pub or nightclub, or a typical fast food restaurant.

Not that there won't be some truth to anything played in a cramped building with kids coming in and out off the street eight hours a day.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 20:51:46


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.


I’m not going to read a 40 page thread about lady space marines, do you mean to say you think that thread is evidence that lady space marines would bring significantly more women to the game?

Usually when there’s a 40 page thread on something it’s the same small handful of people who are too pedantic and overly invested to know when to walk away from an online discussion, so the thread goes on far longer than it is valuable or representative of the wider community. I know because I’m often one of those people People like that seem to be more prevalent in war gaming, or specifically more present on Dakka.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 22:41:08


Post by: Argive


I think it'ss absolutely critical to compare wargaming to other hobbies.

Only about 1-2% of my local fishing association roster is female last time I had a look at the members list.
Some sources I found thinks its about 15% nationally but not sure how they would get their data as when buying a rod licence you don't input your gender...

This is a solitary hobby predominately done by Men. Every single part of the hobby can/is usually done on your own; You buy gear, research, learn how to do tackle etc. All without interacting with a single person.
Is there a problem with fishing ??

I bet you there will be some people who will say "Yes. Not enough women in fishing. Must be sexism because I cant see any other reason upon scrutiny"

In contrast my wife to be beauty salon has 100% women attendance for treatments. Lets be generous and say its 95% on the grand scale.
Is there a problem with beauty salons??

So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny? Are we going to rampage our way through society and scrutinize every hobby and demonise people if there too many of a certain demographic enjoying a certain thing?

Warhammer is also mostly solitary. You buy, assemble and paint your stuff. If you want to you'd need to interact with an opponent to play a game. But that's pretty much it. You can have as broad a community as you want or you can go at it alone if you don't like the community/ aren't a community person.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/17 23:40:14


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Argive wrote:
So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny?
Because it is the outlier; tabletop gaming as a whole has trended towards more female participation but wargaming has not.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 01:36:09


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.


I’m not going to read a 40 page thread about lady space marines, do you mean to say you think that thread is evidence that lady space marines would bring significantly more women to the game?

Usually when there’s a 40 page thread on something it’s the same small handful of people who are too pedantic and overly invested to know when to walk away from an online discussion, so the thread goes on far longer than it is valuable or representative of the wider community. I know because I’m often one of those people People like that seem to be more prevalent in war gaming, or specifically more present on Dakka.


While mostly accurate, you should consider that they often cite sources, communities of women gamers who convert female space marines, or who want female space marines, or who chose AOS over 40k because one game had representation in its flagship faction and the other didn’t. There’s some worthwhile stuff in the thread.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 01:49:14


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Wait are you saying if there's no female marines AoS gets all the ladies?

I gotta get that thread closed...









(Sarcasm, if that wasn't obvious)


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 05:45:30


Post by: Ouze


 Argive wrote:
So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny?


I mean, I feel like the obvious answer here is that this is a wargaming forum. Perhaps those exact same conversations are taking place on fishing forums as well, but we're just not following them.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 07:30:35


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There’s a 40 page thread on lady space marines in the 40k background forum. Read the whole thing. You might even change your mind.


I’m not going to read a 40 page thread about lady space marines, do you mean to say you think that thread is evidence that lady space marines would bring significantly more women to the game?

Usually when there’s a 40 page thread on something it’s the same small handful of people who are too pedantic and overly invested to know when to walk away from an online discussion, so the thread goes on far longer than it is valuable or representative of the wider community. I know because I’m often one of those people People like that seem to be more prevalent in war gaming, or specifically more present on Dakka.


While mostly accurate, you should consider that they often cite sources, communities of women gamers who convert female space marines, or who want female space marines, or who chose AOS over 40k because one game had representation in its flagship faction and the other didn’t. There’s some worthwhile stuff in the thread.


Yeah you lost me at "40 page thread", there are few 40 page threads I'd be interested in reading on any forum

But yeah, it's impossible to tell from a thread how prevalent a desire is and how many people might be enticed into a game if there were better representation in a specific faction, the sources of specific gamers who do a thing is impossible to extrapolate out. It's always hard to say if the increased representation will bring in enough sales to counter the portion of existing players you'll piss off. Even positive moves can push certain customers away, hell, I haven't touched my Space Marines since Primaris came out (and that probably would have been a good opportunity to bring in femarines if they wanted). The difference with female Sigmarines is male-only Sigmarines never existed in the first place, so you're not upsetting the existing community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
 Argive wrote:
So why is wargaming and other past time under scrutiny?


I mean, I feel like the obvious answer here is that this is a wargaming forum. Perhaps those exact same conversations are taking place on fishing forums as well, but we're just not following them.


I think it's fine to ask why there's discrepancies, but a question on top of that is whether it's actually a problem if there is discrepancies.

Lets face it, wargaming has a pretty high barrier to entry. Unlike a board game or an RPG or whatever, a wargame you're usually going out and spending several hundred if not thousands of dollars on an army then spending 100's of hours painting little toys before you even hit the table. You're buying carrying cases, you're spending hours reading rules. It's mostly the nerdiest of the nerdy and antisocial of the antisocialites who are drawn to it, I definitely would never have started wargaming if I was introduced to it as an adult.

People's interests and desires tend to lie on a bell curve, and a hobby like wargaming appeals to the very tail of that bell curve, so if the male and female bell curves are shifted slightly it the discrepancy grows.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 17:36:47


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Ouze wrote:

Maybe the reason more ladies aren't interested in playing wargames like 40K is because 40K is a deeply, deeply unfun game?


Its a good point. 40k is objectively a bad wargame, at best its mediocre if you prefer your wargames to be decided by factors not on the table (so the list building, CP, strategies, special rule layer). The background and universe is great, but if you applied the game rules to a historical setting you would have far fewer adherents. If the more fun games had the wide acceptance of 40k would more people play once, like it and get involved? If you are ambivalent about the environment, playing a bland intro game or pointlessly complex bigger game it is going to turn you off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
I think it'ss absolutely critical to compare wargaming to other hobbies.

Only about 1-2% of my local fishing association roster is female last time I had a look at the members list.
This is a solitary hobby predominately done by Men. Every single part of the hobby can/is usually done on your own; You buy gear, research, learn how to do tackle etc. All without interacting with a single person.
Is there a problem with fishing ??

In contrast my wife to be beauty salon has 100% women attendance for treatments. Lets be generous and say its 95% on the grand scale.
Is there a problem with beauty salons??

Warhammer is also mostly solitary.


To get the comparison you would need to have a) fishing companies wanting to sell to women and b) comparable activities to fishing int he same sector that are attracting women. Fishing would then be an outlier. Here we have companies that want to grow and women playing RPGs, boardgames, computer games, etc that are traditionally put in the same bracket of niche male pursuit. If women are playing gears of war and axis and allies in greater numbers, why aren't they doing the same for wargames?

For beauty salons is there a comparable activity in the same sector for males? Well oddly enough there is both the historical precedent (men wearing a lot of make up and wigs) and a massive marketing push to get men into buying beauty products today. Barber shops seem to increasingly diversify into offering beauty salon like services and tanning beds are increasingly used by men.

There isn't a problem in the sense of something bad is happening to someone (well unless you go to a bad salon or catch mermaids), but if this your sector as a company you want to up your market. If its your hobbey you are generally better off with greater numbers of people participating from across different social divides to maximise its sustainability and your easy future within it. Yes you can fish with a stick and some string or wargame with painted rice, but its a lot better if companies are offering good products.

Also I would say Wargaming is solitary in preparation but completely social in execution, unless you are a solo gamer.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 18:23:40


Post by: BlackoCatto


The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Ouze wrote:

Maybe the reason more ladies aren't interested in playing wargames like 40K is because 40K is a deeply, deeply unfun game?


Its a good point. 40k is objectively a bad wargame, at best its mediocre if you prefer your wargames to be decided by factors not on the table (so the list building, CP, strategies, special rule layer). The background and universe is great, but if you applied the game rules to a historical setting you would have far fewer adherents. If the more fun games had the wide acceptance of 40k would more people play once, like it and get involved? If you are ambivalent about the environment, playing a bland intro game or pointlessly complex bigger game it is going to turn you off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:
I think it'ss absolutely critical to compare wargaming to other hobbies.

Only about 1-2% of my local fishing association roster is female last time I had a look at the members list.
This is a solitary hobby predominately done by Men. Every single part of the hobby can/is usually done on your own; You buy gear, research, learn how to do tackle etc. All without interacting with a single person.
Is there a problem with fishing ??

In contrast my wife to be beauty salon has 100% women attendance for treatments. Lets be generous and say its 95% on the grand scale.
Is there a problem with beauty salons??

Warhammer is also mostly solitary.


To get the comparison you would need to have a) fishing companies wanting to sell to women and b) comparable activities to fishing int he same sector that are attracting women. Fishing would then be an outlier. Here we have companies that want to grow and women playing RPGs, boardgames, computer games, etc that are traditionally put in the same bracket of niche male pursuit. If women are playing gears of war and axis and allies in greater numbers, why aren't they doing the same for wargames?

For beauty salons is there a comparable activity in the same sector for males? Well oddly enough there is both the historical precedent (men wearing a lot of make up and wigs) and a massive marketing push to get men into buying beauty products today. Barber shops seem to increasingly diversify into offering beauty salon like services and tanning beds are increasingly used by men.

There isn't a problem in the sense of something bad is happening to someone (well unless you go to a bad salon or catch mermaids), but if this your sector as a company you want to up your market. If its your hobbey you are generally better off with greater numbers of people participating from across different social divides to maximise its sustainability and your easy future within it. Yes you can fish with a stick and some string or wargame with painted rice, but its a lot better if companies are offering good products.

Also I would say Wargaming is solitary in preparation but completely social in execution, unless you are a solo gamer.


I can think of a few reasons why women liked Gears of War XD


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 18:35:07


Post by: LunarSol


I think something like Gears of War makes it a lot easier to show interest in with some anonymity. If you've ever been in the cringe fest that is a player admitting to being a girl in those games.... it's bad. In the tabletop space, that social cost ends up getting paid upfront.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 22:50:30


Post by: AustonT


Every major fishing company I know of has a women’s line and actively attempts to increase market share amongst women. Because it’s an unrealized income potential. The difference is no one is writing articles about why fishing is so problematic; or salon/spas. Those hobbies it seems acceptable to just shrug and say “it’s not for everyone.”

Unlike this extremely niche hobby that requires a pretty focused interest in a number of things women don’t especially care for.
Then it’s unacceptable to point about that this already fringe hobby may not be very attractive to women (and most men); and that’s fine.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 22:57:46


Post by: Overread


Perhaps its more that fishing is more a personal hobby in many ways. It's you or a friend or two against the fish.

Meanwhile with wargames when you actually game its you and another person. You have to have at least one other person. Take that to the club level and most of us find that with larger groups there's often more mutual fun potential. More people means more variation in matches; it means more skill spread and skill levels. It means more chance of having more people at your skill level to play with.


So there's a direct personal benefit to wanting to have more gamers. Be that looking at current social groups that wargame; or looking at other groups for potential gamers.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/18 23:37:46


Post by: flamingkillamajig


So here's what i have to ask. Why do we need wargaming to appeal to women whereas things like True Blood, Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey are totally fine to appeal to women without appealing to men? Is it not ok for certain groups to prefer certain things? Why do we have to try to force certain demographics into certain hobbies?

I have a family member that mentioned he runs a chess club with a bunch of students and they tried to introduce many women in. While there was one they had that could beat all the boys most of the girls would just chat and be social to each other. I think he mentioned some wouldn't even really play the game.

As far as objectification goes anime is very popular with women despite constant ridiculous objectification.

I think you guys are often trying to attack the problem the wrong way. For instance back when i wanted to watch 300 my half sister went merely so she could see a lot of buff shirtless dudes. Maybe women would rather see the warhammer romance stories or check out a buff shirtless sanguinius or something. Just a thought.

Also if anybody thinks only men are bad at the table....ahem. Might be a bit NSFW.




I think it's mostly Veibae and Snuffy but if this was dudes you'd probably ask them to calm down a little.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/19 00:56:44


Post by: trexmeyer


That's a really good point. Nothing needs to appeal to everybody. A target audience, even if indirectly targeted, is fine.

In my experience playing 40K/WHFB the people in my area (99% male) were either incredibly socially awkward, excessively competitive (I fell into this category tbf), or otherwise odd in a detrimental way. You can't have a female friendly environment when 25%+ of the population doesn't know or is incapable of behaving like a human being when around women.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/19 01:47:39


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Yeah I think that's part of it. Wargaming just tends to appeal to socially awkward dudes. Also once you reach a threshold of just men or women in any hobby like 80 to 90% you will see certain attitudes. I remember a picture of older moms holding up a billboard saying Moms that love twilight or something. The idea is that they were into a movie with a dude that was at the time fairly young and it just sent out some creepy pedo vibes with it. I'm not saying this makes it 100% ok but this will happen when the fan base is mostly of a certain demographic with probably anything and not just sex or gender.

Then there's the idea that only wargaming fanbases can be toxic or weird....except Harry potter (potter heads that say which of the 4 school groups they're in), star wars (even decades ago with religion), star trek (calling out episodes on number or going Kirk or picard) and so on and so forth. If I recall even sports has this ridiculous obsession with teams which are basically a jock version of nerdy hobbies. Not an insult but it's what they are.

Also if we are going to consider markets this inevitably will lead to opinions based in other countries or regions such as China and let's be real human rights are few and far between with such regions and they take a dim view of even more moderate views by western standards.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/19 03:34:22


Post by: AustonT


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
If I recall even sports has this ridiculous obsession with teams which are basically a jock version of nerdy hobbies. Not an insult but it's what they are.


Fantasy Leagues are pretty much modern proof all those sports fans were always nerds. Just with different interests. I’ve sat through HOURS of just stat line and list building with some dude building his fantasy football team that rivals any 40k skullduggery.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/19 05:29:09


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Some of you need to get over your victim complex.

Or maybe we just need to put 'trigger warning' in the thread title? People really will get offended over anything these days.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/19 05:31:24


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Some of you need to get over your victim complex.


That seems like a wholly unuseful comment.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/19 05:50:32


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Who has a victim complex? I just got here. These days I gotta pretty much walk on egg shells in any discussion because dakka or other places can't handle opinions differing from their own.

I was actually pleasantly surprised at a couple responses this time but there are those on any side which have to make everything into a fight.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/19 06:53:10


Post by: NinthMusketeer


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Some of you need to get over your victim complex.


That seems like a wholly unuseful comment.
You must be new to the thread...


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 01:10:49


Post by: Vulcan


 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a really good point. Nothing needs to appeal to everybody. A target audience, even if indirectly targeted, is fine.

In my experience playing 40K/WHFB the people in my area (99% male) were either incredibly socially awkward, excessively competitive (I fell into this category tbf), or otherwise odd in a detrimental way. You can't have a female friendly environment when 25%+ of the population doesn't know or is incapable of behaving like a human being when around women.


And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

"Ewww, I smell geek!" "Look at the losers!" "Yeah right, four-eyes..." Worse still, "Let me feign interest in you and your hobbies so I can more thoroughly humiliate you in public tomorrow!" When this is your sum total interaction with women, one can get very reluctant to have anything to do with a girl claiming to be interested in your hobby, especially in the formative middle and high school years.

Yes, game clubs should try to be more welcoming. But when your experiences with women and your hobby is them looking to mock you over it, well, past experiences of pain is a great motivator of behavior.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 02:06:55


Post by: RegularGuy


Whether it's learning math and science or war games, starting at a younger age with an appropriate setting and experience is a key way to help women find their way to it. Middleschool is a great time to target. I taught a series of math, science, and logic classes to middleschool kids and it was amazing what they could do because no one had enculturated them into thinking it was too hard or uncool yet. I find the same goes for gaming. I have an active team for D&D that is about half women of that age (with their parents), and they're having a great time. We're even dabbling in bits of warhammer for mass battles.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 03:29:37


Post by: insaniak


 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 04:08:10


Post by: NinthMusketeer


As we know, men would never mock each other's hobbies so this is a concern women specifically need to be called out on. /s


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 04:34:44


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.

I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

Whilst it's great to see more women in wargaming (and the numbers around this area have certainly grown, from "zero" when I started in the 90's to "a few" now) I don't think the answer is to tell an entire community they're enjoying themselves incorrectly and need to change to become more appealing to a different group.

Assuming of course they aren't actively discriminating and we're just talking about general social awkwardness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As we know, men would never mock each other's hobbies so this is a concern women specifically need to be called out on. /s


I'm not placing blame on girls because obviously those years can be tough regardless of whether you're a girl a boy, but it's just the way it is that it can be more hurtful for a boy to be mocked by a girl than by other boys. Kids can be arseholes, I was fortunate that I never really got mocked for my hobbies in spite of them being mostly nerdy hobbies... other than by my siblings who had little problem telling me I was a weirdo



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 04:48:20


Post by: insaniak


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

If you want to see more women in the hobby, and your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby... the maths here is fairly simple.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 05:05:36


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

If you want to see more women in the hobby, and your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby... the maths here is fairly simple.


Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

/sarcasm (actually if you're in Melbourne maybe that's true )

Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful. In fact I think that's half the issue, instead of saying "there's maybe a problem, what can we do to identify the root causes and improve the situation", we get "YOU'RE the problem, fix yourself!!". Of course people are going to get defensive, you're not helping.




Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 05:41:42


Post by: insaniak


AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.


Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful.

It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 05:58:15


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 insaniak wrote:
It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.
And I responded by saying I agree but I also don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves (and I also never said you said that, it was a general comment in response to your comment rather than an accusatory statement).

But then you said "your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby." Which in my book sure sounds like flinging blame.

What a fun game we're playing, recounting what each of us said less than 6 posts earlier


 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.

You literally said...
 insaniak wrote:
your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby.


Of course I took the artistic license of extending that to your own local gaming club, but I would have figured the obvious implied and outright labelled sarcasm entitled me to a little hyperbole.

But yay! The game of dissecting what we just said even though it's plainly there for all to read continues!


EDIT: Sorry, made a couple of edits because I made a hash of the quotes, my apologies.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 05:59:12


Post by: AustonT


 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful.

It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.


You responded by ignoring the context he provided in the next paragraph where, I can only assume from either his or anecdotal experience those women; girls really, were deliberately cruel and further enforced the social isolation of some people.

Depending on how long it’s been since you’ve been a kid; or had kids: you may have forgotten that children and adolescents are especially cruel to their peers. And we now know that a significant percentage of male children are on the spectrum, and that the spectrum presents itself with native social awkwardness in many cases. I’ll agree with you that it’s not those women’s responsibility to inculcate positive experiences; but they do get to own the damage they do through malice.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 06:18:29


Post by: insaniak


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But then you said "your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby." ...

No, I didn't. I said that if your behaviour is the problem, then changing your behaviour is the obvious solution.

That's not flinging blame. That's pointing out that if people don't want to be around you because they don't like the smell of rotting fish, maybe taking the rotting fish out of your pocket might be sensible.

You literally said...
 insaniak wrote:
your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby.

The statement 'If you want something, you should do the thing' and the statement 'If I want something, you should do the thing' are not, in fact, the same statement.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 08:49:15


Post by: flamingkillamajig


Trying to take this away from a more negative route. I don't fully know why men and women choose to do what they like. However I think it's more important they like what it is they're doing and maybe it's not up to us to decide for them.

I used to try to get friends into warhammer and often if they weren't interested within like 30 secs to a minute they just didn't care. Usually it was a mixture of time, money or effort on their part that they just weren't able or willing to give. Oddly usually the people i knew I didn't try to get interested in warhammer were the ones that got into it.

To be completely fair there's a difference here between them being interested in warhammer and them being interested in the tabletop. I'm referring the the tabletop in the previous paragraph. People seem more willing to get into total war warhammer, dawn of war or vermintide 2 than tabletop of any variety.

I think this has to do with how invested you have to be in it and the work and money involved. I try to tell people usually to get into the video games first if they're curious and usually that's a decent entry point.

All this said I have trouble wanting to get people into warhammer with my own hang-ups with the current game. Im just not really having fun anymore in the game.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 09:52:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


This thread has done more to show me how pervasive the problem is than the article ever could have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.

You literally said...
 insaniak wrote:
your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby.
No, he did not say that. What he said was a statement that meant something completely different. You took half of his sentence out of context to lie about what he said. But fear not; I will state that if you lie like that in your gaming club then yeah, your behavior is probably keeping people away (regardless of gender).


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 11:05:38


Post by: Karak Norn Clansman


People are drawn to what they like, and what they like the look of.

Wargaming circles around here are all polite and friendly to women wargamers, so the community is not a problem.

Army design may also play a part. It is possible that more women in general would be interested if they saw more designs like Wood Elves and Sisters of Battle.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 14:11:15


Post by: Voss


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.

I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.


Absolutely it is.
Learning how to deal with other human beings in a socially acceptable fashion is the baseline required for anyone to participate in society.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 14:20:26


Post by: BlackoCatto


 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
People are drawn to what they like, and what they like the look of.

Wargaming circles around here are all polite and friendly to women wargamers, so the community is not a problem.

Army design may also play a part. It is possible that more women in general would be interested if they saw more designs like Wood Elves and Sisters of Battle.


Hey Women did like Gears 1 and there is barely a woman in the cast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I can't believe we have looped around to victim blaming of bullied nerds. XD


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 16:12:59


Post by: Vulcan


 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.


Ah... you weren't a geek in middle or high school, were you. Never one of the social outcasts the girls would rather die than be seen with, yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As we know, men would never mock each other's hobbies so this is a concern women specifically need to be called out on. /s


True, but since this is about women wanting into game groups...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.

If you want to see more women in the hobby, and your behaviour is keeping women away from the hobby... the maths here is fairly simple.


So the answer is to kick out all the socially awkward people in the hobby? I mean, yeah, the ideal would be to magically make all the socially awkward people suave and sophisticated... but it's hardly realistic...


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 16:19:14


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.


I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 16:24:47


Post by: Vulcan


 insaniak wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Oh I'm so sorry that my personal behaviour is what's keeping women out of your local gaming clubs

That's not what I said.


Socially awkward kids be socially awkward, I don't see how flinging blame is helpful.

It's not. Which is why I responded to the post flinging blame at women for not rushing to the aid of socially awkward kids. You appear to have read something into my comments that wasn't there.


And you seem to have read something into my comment that wasn't there either. I wasn't saying gamer girls are to blame for any of this. Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls. But demanding that geek guys magically become suave and sophisticated around girls... that's not a realistic solution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.

I agree it's not up to women, but then on the flip side I don't think it's up to socially awkward gamers to change themselves to make wargaming more accommodating to women.


Absolutely it is.
Learning how to deal with other human beings in a socially acceptable fashion is the baseline required for anyone to participate in society.


And that's why some of them get really hostile to strangers. They HAVE their own little society where they all get along just fine and who are you to intrude in and tell them they have to be accepting of others who have constantly and cruelly rejected THEM?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.


I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.


And nothing need be said about the toxicity of those rejecting the hobby and those interested in it?

Well. If that's the takeaway, then I think we're done here.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 17:02:58


Post by: NinthMusketeer


No one is asking geeks to become suave. Simply that if the socially awkward want to be accommodated by others they need to make an effort to accommodate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.

I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.
Yeah. I have spent an untold amount of effort in learning how to behave in a fashion to not make others uncomfortable, it boils my blood when people act as if it is everyone else's job to adapt to their individual needs.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 17:30:24


Post by: flamingkillamajig


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
No one is asking geeks to become suave. Simply that if the socially awkward want to be accommodated by others they need to make an effort to accommodate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I was an outcast in middle and high school. I was laughed at by women. I still think you come across really badly in this thread.

I agree with Ninthmuskateer about this thread being a great illustration of the toxicity in the hobby.
Yeah. I have spent an untold amount of effort in learning how to behave in a fashion to not make others uncomfortable, it boils my blood when people act as if it is everyone else's job to adapt to their individual needs.


Well that's weird because I'm supposed to understand what every single person's personal preferences are on your side and not to make anybody uncomfortable as an autistic man no less. I would expect a more give and take attitude but I guess not. You totally expect people to understand a person's situation but if it was a socially awkward autistic person not knowing how to socially act towards others it's somehow the autistic persons fault. May as well tell a man in a wheelchair to go up the steps because everybody else is expected to.

My issue isnt people that are reasonable or understand everybody has some hang ups they gotta fix. My issue is that shrill and shrieking individual that forces everybody else to ACT NORMAL! Dude it's a game with awkward nerds. There's a good chance even the girls suck with social interaction. This isn't some elite ballroom between political elites. It's a nerdy hobby. I'm not saying they shouldn't improve but you're asking a lot to quickly and if they don't follow your demands you want them to leave. They deserve to be there too just like you and if the hobby is becoming this fractured maybe the game itself will suffer greatly soon.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 18:41:02


Post by: Cronch


Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls.

The strange american HS clique system is not a universal experience.

To be completely fair there's a difference here between them being interested in warhammer and them being interested in the tabletop. I'm referring the the tabletop in the previous paragraph. People seem more willing to get into total war warhammer, dawn of war or vermintide 2 than tabletop of any variety.

That is a good point, Warhammer is a very bad introduction to the hobby because at it's basis, it's a poor experience.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 19:02:22


Post by: Overread


Cronch wrote:
Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls.

The strange american HS clique system is not a universal experience.


WAIT you mean that exists outside of hollywood films?


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 19:17:49


Post by: flamingkillamajig


 Overread wrote:
Cronch wrote:
Indeed, I expect they get picked on even MORE mercilessly than the geek guys by the popular girls.

The strange american HS clique system is not a universal experience.


WAIT you mean that exists outside of hollywood films?


Yes but it depends. It's not just the popular girls. Every time when my local gw went to lunch at the sandwich shop next door a couple of the girls working there used to joke "here comes the 'nerd herd'....". I only found out when a gw customer that joked with them pointed it out. Granted a couple of the women there were sorta attracted to me but people of all groups can suck.

As far as when I was in high school girls got competitive with dudes they liked and one insulted me (hygiene and such) just because I liked both her and somebody that was dating a guy she used to date and she probably felt that dude was stolen from her. Same girl also had another girl pass back papers but before she passed it back to her wrote 'hoe bag' on the paper and she read it and laughed.

Girls can be cruel but I'd say they're worse to each other or at least out in public.

This isn't even getting to my Karen sisters which treat their submissive husbands poorly.

I'm not saying all girls are bad but if you think they're all angels you're sorely mistaken. Seriously I've had enough bad experiences to know that's untrue.

They can get really jealous when relationships get involved to. Not all but it is significant.

------

Actually tabletop wargaming is just overall harder to get into. Hundreds if not thousands of dollars, time and painting make it unattractive vs playing vermintide with a bunch of friends or total war warhammer with a solid computer. This isn't just about women but men too.

I realize people would probably get upset at stereotypes for some reason but if you want to interest women maybe give stuff women tend to like? Maybe more painting instruction for tabletop, maybe commission more yaoi art of primarchs, maybe throw out stories that aren't just grim dark and war torn and hopeless. I suppose emo goth girls might still like those last ones but i think the issue is giving women what theyd want.

Thing is though if you change warhammer that much to get women involved the setting would change dramatically for everybody else. Fan art and encouraging painting is one thing. A flamboyant JoJos bizarre adventure style sanguinius as a model in the tabletop might change things too much.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 19:50:23


Post by: Azreal13


 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Yes but it depends. It's not just the popular girls. Every time when my local gw went to lunch at the sandwich shop next door a couple of the girls working there used to joke "here comes the 'nerd herd'....". I only found out when a gw customer that joked with them pointed it out. Granted a couple of the women there were sorta attracted to me but people of all groups can suck.

As far as when I was in high school girls got competitive with dudes they liked and one insulted me (hygiene and such) just because I liked both her and somebody that was dating a guy she used to date and she probably felt that dude was stolen from her. Same girl also had another girl pass back papers but before she passed it back to her wrote 'hoe bag' on the paper and she read it and laughed.




Not being funny, perhaps you've expressed yourself poorly, or gone for brevity and not included some key info.

But, is that it?

I was, I guess, relatively popular, and went through worse than that. For a kid in 80s/90s public education in the UK, that just sounds like a Tuesday.



Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 20:01:13


Post by: flamingkillamajig


 Azreal13 wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Yes but it depends. It's not just the popular girls. Every time when my local gw went to lunch at the sandwich shop next door a couple of the girls working there used to joke "here comes the 'nerd herd'....". I only found out when a gw customer that joked with them pointed it out. Granted a couple of the women there were sorta attracted to me but people of all groups can suck.

As far as when I was in high school girls got competitive with dudes they liked and one insulted me (hygiene and such) just because I liked both her and somebody that was dating a guy she used to date and she probably felt that dude was stolen from her. Same girl also had another girl pass back papers but before she passed it back to her wrote 'hoe bag' on the paper and she read it and laughed.




Not being funny, perhaps you've expressed yourself poorly, or gone for brevity and not included some key info.

But, is that it?

I was, I guess, relatively popular, and went through worse than that. For a kid in 80s/90s public education in the UK, that just sounds like a Tuesday.



I mean I was also relentlessly bullied (most of it physical) until high school including being I think knocked out for throwing a book back at one of the two bullies throwing books at me without provocation and in another case given 2 black eyes for merely tapping a dudes shoe with mine. Those werent girls though.

I've spoken with some women that had women give them a rough time. Usually they say other girls backstab a lot but I find the girls that say this tend to be pretty or into male dominated hobbies.

As far as the karen sisters I have one of them was stressed out and angry and insulted people for almost 8 hours straight. Not to mention after all of this she said what happened to her was abuse even though she verbally abuses all her family including me who is autistic and her husband which is slowly losing it from Alzheimer's/dementia and she's getting seriously mad at him for his dementia while he suffers pretty much blaming him for his loss of mental and physical ability.

In the case of my Karen sisters I never want to deal with a Karen for long esp. Where they're in control of the situation and I definitely never want to date one. Sadly I kinda have to deal with them because I can't seem to get away.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 20:12:32


Post by: BlackoCatto


Like I said, weird to go into victim blaming.


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 20:44:22


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 insaniak wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

And let's face it. Of that 25%, a good chunk never learned because the women around them refuse to spend enough time with them to teach them how.

You've italicized that like it's somehow something that should be expected, which is odd. It's not up to women who just happen to be in your proximity to go out of their way to teach you to be less anti-social, and if you're not giving them a reason to want to spend time with you, that's on you, not them.


Reminds me of my 'helpful' lady housemates, when asked "if i'm going too strange you'd tell me right ?", to which "where's the fun in that..." was the reply


Wired Article - Why so few Woman Wargamers? @ 2021/06/20 20:44:24


Post by: A.T.


 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I realize people would probably get upset at stereotypes for some reason but if you want to interest women maybe give stuff women tend to like?
Back at school many many years ago there was a chess/gaming night set up by the headmaster that at various times ran boardgames, tabletop games, and rpgs.

We could have been sacrificing goats or dancing to swan lake for all the entire female population of the school knew, in five years not a single girl so much as looked through the door. There is a lot of cultural inertia and social pressure to work through that isn't necessarily related to anything the game actually has or does.

Also the girls I know like things like spiders and 80s computing, and those that played rpgs (including one enthusiastic Dark Heresy player) still weren't interested in a round of 40k with the exactly the same players, in exactly the same setting, even with borrowed models. Just personal preferences.



 flamingkillamajig wrote:
A flamboyant JoJos bizarre adventure style sanguinius as a model in the tabletop might change things too much.
You can already get resin pillar men custodes. They are fabulous.