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Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 17:51:13


Post by: Black Knight


Hey everyone!

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.

The predator needs to come down to around 130-140 points for the variants. The Castigator gets the firepower of the Destructor variant almost with just the 3 heavy bolters,
add the 4 D3 autocannon or battlecannon on top of that, and its firepower potential is way higher, its no contest.

Make the predator great again! Reduce the point cost so Chaos players and Space Marine players alike will even consider including them in lists! I know as it stands I
wouldn't take it even in a casual list! What are your guys thoughts?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 17:56:16


Post by: Xenomancers


I can't remember and edition where the predator was actually good. I mean I agree with you and also wish the pred with 4 las was like...130-140.

The problem is GW undervalues mobility and invulnerable saves that other tanks gets and it overvalues the T7 stat.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 17:58:11


Post by: Karol


The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 18:04:28


Post by: Black Knight


Karol wrote:
The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.


Well Sisters can give a castigator an inv save, so I think the new tank is pretty good. Space Marines can give the Predator a 5+ invuln through Psychic powers, the biggest problem as of right now
is the point cost imo. Its just way too high for what it offers, and it baffles me that almost every Space Marine tank got a 20 points drop but the Predator didn't.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 18:15:54


Post by: Karol


Well it is an old tank. There is a lot of them on the secondary market, and there is a lot of rhinos and turrets made by other companies to fit them, GW doesn't have many entice to fix the tank.

On the other hand fixing something like an impulsor could earn them a quick buck, but I assume that GW has it plans done for the long time, and short time. Maybe the plan for marine vehicles to be strong in second part of 9th ed or in 10th. At the start of 8th, few people thought that from the look of rules alone, stuff like primaris or centurions is going to be a thing people are going to want to buy.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 20:03:51


Post by: ERJAK


 Black Knight wrote:
Hey everyone!

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.

The predator needs to come down to around 130-140 points for the variants. The Castigator gets the firepower of the Destructor variant almost with just the 3 heavy bolters,
add the 4 D3 autocannon or battlecannon on top of that, and its firepower potential is way higher, its no contest.

Make the predator great again! Reduce the point cost so Chaos players and Space Marine players alike will even consider including them in lists! I know as it stands I
wouldn't take it even in a casual list! What are your guys thoughts?


The Castigator is still doggak though. IT needs to be 130pts. The predator should be less


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 20:30:29


Post by: Altima


Wouldn't be surprised if the pre-primaris vehicles eventually get phased out of Space Marines with IG and SoB getting the leftovers.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I can't remember and edition where the predator was actually good.


Around 3rd or 4th when GW gave assault cannons rend so the Blood Angels could spam even more with their Baal-pattern predators.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 20:42:14


Post by: AnomanderRake


Altima wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if the pre-primaris vehicles eventually get phased out of Space Marines with IG and SoB getting the leftovers...


No, no, look at Sigmar. They'll get Legendsed in 10th, and then in 11th edition there will be an "old stuff" army book that crams, like, five different army books together into one army because no matter how much GW hates writing rules for old stuff they understand they have to keep pandering to the people that liked it.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 21:04:21


Post by: jeff white


The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 21:10:15


Post by: xeen


Karol wrote:
The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.


Yea if it had the IG (and I think some other armies have this too) ability to shoot the turret twice if moved half speed, I think it would be much more appealing. Then you could keep it real cheap with no sponsors but still have a good amount of firepower. It should also have like 2 or 3 more wounds since it is a main battle tank (well I think it is right?) Actually most vehicles in the game should have a few more wounds at least, but that is a different discussion.

Also if the chaos one could take sponsors with reaper chain cannons that would also make it more appealing.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 21:25:15


Post by: ERJAK


 xeen wrote:
Karol wrote:
The castigator is cheaper, but still kind of not that enticing to take, even with the nerfs to the organ gun platform.
Nowadays for a tank to be good it has to either fly, be super undercosted, have an inv save or a combination of the three. If it is just a stock 140-180pts block of 10-11W with +3sv and t8, it is just not worth taking, unless somehow your army doesn't have any other source of long range fire support.

A predator to be could would need something like a rule that lets it shot twice, if it doesn't move. Or some very strong buffs coming from the outside. Like a inv stratagem, double shot stratagem, LoS ignoring stratagem etc.


Yea if it had the IG (and I think some other armies have this too) ability to shoot the turret twice if moved half speed, I think it would be much more appealing. Then you could keep it real cheap with no sponsors but still have a good amount of firepower. It should also have like 2 or 3 more wounds since it is a main battle tank (well I think it is right?) Actually most vehicles in the game should have a few more wounds at least, but that is a different discussion.

Also if the chaos one could take sponsors with reaper chain cannons that would also make it more appealing.


Sponsons are mandatory.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 21:39:08


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


I don't see how you came to the conclusion that sponsons are mandatory on a Predator. The SM book (9th ed) says that it may have 2 heavy bolters or 2 lascannons not that it must.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 21:53:07


Post by: the_scotsman


 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


Ah yes, famously "running on fumes" companies, Games Workshop and Disney.

You also know jeff bezos is nearly broke because he cut his hair, and the American military budget must be critically underfunded because the planes keep crashing.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 22:31:41


Post by: Seabass


I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 22:44:45


Post by: ERJAK


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't see how you came to the conclusion that sponsons are mandatory on a Predator. The SM book (9th ed) says that it may have 2 heavy bolters or 2 lascannons not that it must.


Castigator sponsons are mandatory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


Ah yes, famously "running on fumes" companies, Games Workshop and Disney.

You also know jeff bezos is nearly broke because he cut his hair, and the American military budget must be critically underfunded because the planes keep crashing.


Yeah, he's not the best at this.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 23:22:20


Post by: Valkyrie


Predators definitely got the boost they needed with the new Autocannon. I love the aesthetic of them, much better than the Primaris crap they've been putting out.

Is it better than the Castigator? Well do they fill the same role? The Cas is limited to the Auto/Battle cannon and Heavy Bolters, whereas the Pred can be outfitted with Las. I'm not sure you can make a decent comparison on stats alone when you consider the overall army benefits; I think the Marine benefits such as Doctrines etc affect the Pred more than the Sisters' ones do.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 23:27:23


Post by: Black Knight


 Valkyrie wrote:
Predators definitely got the boost they needed with the new Autocannon. I love the aesthetic of them, much better than the Primaris crap they've been putting out.

Is it better than the Castigator? Well do they fill the same role? The Cas is limited to the Auto/Battle cannon and Heavy Bolters, whereas the Pred can be outfitted with Las. I'm not sure you can make a decent comparison on stats alone when you consider the overall army benefits; I think the Marine benefits such as Doctrines etc affect the Pred more than the Sisters' ones do.


Ah very true, thats a great point. So the heavy bolters will get -1 ap on turn 1, and in an Iron Hands list will also re roll 1's to hit, and you can spend CP to give it devastator doctrine again... I understand what you mean. Sisters tank comes with a 6+ invulnerable though.

Either way, would be nice to see a drop in points on the Predator, maybe not as drastic as I originally wanted, but maybe get it down to 150 points.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 23:34:27


Post by: Daedalus81


Let's put all the cards on the table.

Unit & Weapons
Castigator is 160 and has a 6++

4D3 S7 AP1 D2 - max of 24
9 S5 AP1 D2 - max of 18

Predator Destructor w/ 2 HBs is 160

2D3 S7 AP1/2 D3 - max of 18
6 S5 AP1/2 D2 - max of 12


"Doctrines"
Castigator gets 6++
Predator gets an additional AP in Heavy

"Super Docs"
Sisters 'super doc' is miracle dice. There is only one Sacred Right that the Castigator would benefit from and I imagine it will be the least used.

RG - +1 to hit and to wound in Tac
IH - reroll 1s in Heavy
IF - +1D w/ AC vs VEHICLE

Orders
VH 5+++ vs MW and reducing AP by 1 for AP1/2 seems meh at best
AS reroll one hit or one wound is ok
The rest seem useless

Chapters
IF - ignore cover, 6s explode on bolters
SA - reroll a wound, ignore AP1
IH - 6+++, Double wounds table
RG - light & dense cover


Conclusion

The Predator has a disadvantage in raw weapon stats, but has a more capable gun against W3/5/6 as well as additional AP available. The marine Chapters also offer a ton more to the Predator than the Orders offer the Castigator.

If you're taking a chapter than offers nothing to the Predator then the Castigator will be better overall. There is no escaping this dynamic. Either you reduce the cost of Predators and they're more worth it in other Chapters or you leave it as is and it is only good in certain Chapters. That or you move to costing each unit differently across Chapters which is a nightmare.

Overall these two platforms seem equally capable.







Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 23:36:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Screw the Predator. Tanks (and monsters) in general need a massive boost.

Fixing the Predator would be like putting a band-aid over an 6" exit wound.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 23:47:07


Post by: AnomanderRake


 jeff white wrote:
...Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


Because the community spent all of 8th screaming about how horrible and unfluffy soup lists were.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/08 23:50:40


Post by: Voss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Screw the Predator. Tanks (and monsters) in general need a massive boost.

Fixing the Predator would be like putting a band-aid over an 6" exit wound.


Yep.

The best 'fix' for the predator currently is splitting the turret weapon in half and giving 2 of the result and 2 hbs to an infantry squad.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 00:00:54


Post by: Grimskul


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Screw the Predator. Tanks (and monsters) in general need a massive boost.

Fixing the Predator would be like putting a band-aid over an 6" exit wound.


Agreed. Barring a few exceptions, most monsters and tanks are a joke. It's baffling that a SHV like a Baneblade has less damage output than some infantry units, and is certainly more killable than two LR in most cases.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 00:11:05


Post by: ERJAK


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's put all the cards on the table.

Unit & Weapons
Castigator is 160 and has a 6++

4D3 S7 AP1 D2 - max of 24
9 S5 AP1 D2 - max of 18

Predator Destructor w/ 2 HBs is 160

2D3 S7 AP1/2 D3 - max of 18
6 S5 AP1/2 D2 - max of 12


"Doctrines"
Castigator gets 6++
Predator gets an additional AP in Heavy

"Super Docs"
Sisters 'super doc' is miracle dice. There is only one Sacred Right that the Castigator would benefit from and I imagine it will be the least used.

RG - +1 to hit and to wound in Tac
IH - reroll 1s in Heavy
IF - +1D w/ AC vs VEHICLE

Orders
VH 5+++ vs MW and reducing AP by 1 for AP1/2 seems meh at best
AS reroll one hit or one wound is ok
The rest seem useless

Chapters
IF - ignore cover, 6s explode on bolters
SA - reroll a wound, ignore AP1
IH - 6+++, Double wounds table
RG - light & dense cover


Conclusion

The Predator has a disadvantage in raw weapon stats, but has a more capable gun against W3/5/6 as well as additional AP available. The marine Chapters also offer a ton more to the Predator than the Orders offer the Castigator.

If you're taking a chapter than offers nothing to the Predator then the Castigator will be better overall. There is no escaping this dynamic. Either you reduce the cost of Predators and they're more worth it in other Chapters or you leave it as is and it is only good in certain Chapters. That or you move to costing each unit differently across Chapters which is a nightmare.

Overall these two platforms seem equally capable.







Capable of nothing. Both die in a single volley to the majority of current anti-tank weapons, both do significantly less damage than an equivalent point value of a better unit(eradicators or retributors respectively). They are neither as survivable or as potent as their closest peers. There's no place for either at their current point values. Which is why you never see them.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 00:28:00


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Grimskul wrote:
Agreed. Barring a few exceptions, most monsters and tanks are a joke. It's baffling that a SHV like a Baneblade has less damage output than some infantry units, and is certainly more killable than two LR in most cases.
It makes me sad to see things like that. I mean, I look at my big Guard tanks, and I see that I own three Macharius' (and 3 Baneblades, and 2 Shadowswords, a Hellhammer, and a Stormblade... ), and I know that 2 Russes will not only be more effective than a single Macharius, but won't cost CP and take up another detachment, will benefit from Regimental Doctrines and so on.

Why they're not HS slots like Tyranid Hierodules I will never know. Probably easier to kill than Hierodules now that I think about it...

Tanks/Monsters need a complete rethink. Not saying AV system - I think that ship has sailed - but they need more wounds, better saves (in some cases), certainly higher toughness, and maybe the odd wound-reducing special rule, or self repair/regeneration stuff.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 00:37:55


Post by: Grimskul


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Agreed. Barring a few exceptions, most monsters and tanks are a joke. It's baffling that a SHV like a Baneblade has less damage output than some infantry units, and is certainly more killable than two LR in most cases.
It makes me sad to see things like that. I mean, I look at my big Guard tanks, and I see that I own three Macharius' (and 3 Baneblades, and 2 Shadowswords, a Hellhammer, and a Stormblade... ), and I know that 2 Russes will not only be more effective than a single Macharius, but won't cost CP and take up another detachment, will benefit from Regimental Doctrines and so on.

Why they're not HS slots like Tyranid Hierodules I will never know. Probably easier to kill than Hierodules now that I think about it...

Tanks/Monsters need a complete rethink. Not saying AV system - I think that ship has sailed - but they need more wounds, better saves (in some cases), certainly higher toughness, and maybe the odd wound-reducing special rule, or self repair/regeneration stuff.


For sure. I think this was mentioned in the other thread about the artificial toughness ceiling created by GW, but the game designers definitely haven't made the most of the lack of a unit characteristic cap to their fullest. It's bonkers that SHV Baneblades aren't at least T9, or 2+ save baseline, and they could easily throw on an extra 10 or some odd wounds and it still wouldn't be quite worth it's current price. Especially now when holding objectives and taking objectives matter more than ever, having a baseline rule where a SHV counts as 10 models in terms of holding objectives could at least prevent a random two man squad from waltzing over an objective and holding it. These are units that should be commanding and priority targets with their mere presence, but taking them is usually a detriment to your army versus a boon. Them losing detachment traits if you don't take a full on SHV detachment is just salt in the wound.



Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 00:44:11


Post by: Jarms48


 Black Knight wrote:

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.


It's not just the Castigator, it's the Leman Russ too. A Leman Russ Exterminator has a Heavy 4 Autocannon with the potential to become Heavy 8 if you move less than half its Movement characteristic. That's 170 points.

Look at the Castigator, it's getting 8 shots on average. 3 Heavy Bolters compared to 1. It's full movement characteristic. BS3+ and a 6++. All the while being 10 points cheaper than a base Exterminator, or 40 points cheaper if you gave that Exterminator sponson Heavy Bolters.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 00:44:34


Post by: Daedalus81


ERJAK wrote:


Capable of nothing. Both die in a single volley to the majority of current anti-tank weapons, both do significantly less damage than an equivalent point value of a better unit(eradicators or retributors respectively). They are neither as survivable or as potent as their closest peers. There's no place for either at their current point values. Which is why you never see them.


Eradicators barely see time and would get outranged pretty hard.

ABs just went up in cost, so, 180 for 3 and they're not likely to get LOS with all of them T1.

Dark lances will light up ABs unless they're DA. On the flip side a predator still has smoke and can actually make use of the extra AP.

ABs average 6.2 / 9.7 on a raider. A Destructor averages 5.3.

180 / 6.2 = 29
160 / 5.3 = 30

So if sacrificing 180 points to kill 95 seems like a better bet then take ABs.



Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 01:05:08


Post by: JNAProductions


Jarms48 wrote:
 Black Knight wrote:

Now that the Sisters codex is out, we need to ask GW to address the elephant in the room : The Predator battle tank.

The new Castigator is superior to it in every way, whilst being CHEAPER in points cost.


It's not just the Castigator, it's the Leman Russ too. A Leman Russ Exterminator has a Heavy 4 Autocannon with the potential to become Heavy 8 if you move less than half its Movement characteristic. That's 170 points.

Look at the Castigator, it's getting 8 shots on average. 3 Heavy Bolters compared to 1. It's full movement characteristic. BS3+ and a 6++. All the while being 10 points cheaper than a base Exterminator, or 40 points cheaper if you gave that Exterminator sponson Heavy Bolters.
The Exterminator is also one of the worst Leman Russ variants.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 01:07:22


Post by: PenitentJake


 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?


The Mandalorian kicks ass. What's better than Lone Wold and Cub in Space when Cub is Baby Yoda?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 01:37:59


Post by: Jarms48


The Exterminator is also one of the worst Leman Russ variants.


Which is true, I was just giving an example of how points efficient the Castigator is for the firepower it has. To get a similar level of firepower for the Exterminator you'd need a Tank Commander, so 205 points and sponson heavy bolters which brings it up to 235 points.

Let's look at their battle cannon instead then. 165 points with their battle cannon and 3 heavy bolters. Off the top of my head it was D6 S9 AP-3 Damage 3. Which makes it better than the Guard battle cannon against vehicles, monsters, and TEQ's. Even with less shots I'm pretty sure it's going to be better against MEQ's thanks to the heavy bolters, and the fact there's no chance to roll 1 damage. The only thing a Guard battle cannon is better against is hordes, but even then, the Castigator has the anti-horde shell too.

The only variant that's better is the demolisher, which is the only variant you can take competitively. Even then, that flat damage 3 on the battle cannon does step on the demolisher cannons toes.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 04:59:28


Post by: Black Knight


Also lets not forget the 72" range of the cannon on the castigator. A savvy opponent can put it in the corner of a board and fire just the battle cannon turn 1. Are you going to dedicate your eradicators/AB squad/anti tank to that corner of the board? Where they will be out of range of anything else till probably turn 3?

Probably not, and then your opponent can move it up turn 2/3 and target your eradicators/AB squad/anti tank units along with whatever else with the Heavy Bolters and live till at least turn 3.

There are strategies, but these are situational.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 05:19:59


Post by: techsoldaten


Seabass wrote:
I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots

Yes. Some people have a tendency to mistake 'Good Enough' for 'Terrible.'

I agree with the concerns about the relative strength of a Predator and points cost. However, the difference is not so great that the Predator is completely outclassed.

If I was going to argue about Predators, I would be talking about CSM Predators compared to Primaris Repulsors. The later just has so many more shots in comparison, the points difference is not enough.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 05:59:01


Post by: Altima


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Tanks/Monsters need a complete rethink. Not saying AV system - I think that ship has sailed - but they need more wounds, better saves (in some cases), certainly higher toughness, and maybe the odd wound-reducing special rule, or self repair/regeneration stuff.


Totally agree that something needs to be done, but I'm not convinced that raising defensive stats is enough since GW has shown that they will again and again increase the lethality of the game. We definitely need a defensive system that puts vehicles/MC's in another class other than box-shaped infantry.

So something like shields in BFG that have to be beaten down every round before damage to the hull can occur, or armor pips in (new) XCOM that reduce incoming damage by a large amount amount and need specialist equipment to bypass or neutralize, or even VtM V5 where you have multiple dice to do things (think saving on multiple dice) but each subsequent action in that round reduces the number of available dice for the next action (so first save on three dice, second save on two, all others on 1).

Either that or go all in on GW's extreme lethality by making AT weapons extremely lethal (we're talking 8+ wounds a hit) and giving tanks/MC's 40+ wounds to compensate.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 06:12:14


Post by: sanguine40k


Most vehicles need +1T and an extra wound per 5 current wounds (or part thereof) - things like Russes would go up 3, light vehicles like Landspeeders would gain 2, etc.

Move degrading profiles up to 12 wounds minimum and losing the benefit of obscuring up to 21+ wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Altima wrote:

So something like shields in BFG that have to be beaten down every round before damage to the hull can occur


That's pretty much the current implementation of void shields, but better (RAW - they only regenerate if the void shield still has wounds remaining).


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 06:36:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Altima wrote:
Totally agree that something needs to be done, but I'm not convinced that raising defensive stats is enough since GW has shown that they will again and again increase the lethality of the game. We definitely need a defensive system that puts vehicles/MC's in another class other than box-shaped infantry.
GW's current trend of making anti-tank weapons more lethal (and less swingy ie. Dd6 vs Dd3+1) came without actually making vehicles any tougher.

This, to me at least, shows GW was trying to make AT weapons more attractive for actual AT work than 8th's issue with mid-strength, mid-damage multi-shot weapons being overall more effective due to having far more of those than expensive swingy AT weaponry, but because they don't understand (or just won't acknowledge) the core issue as to why AT weapons weren't being taken, they've left vehicles in an even worse position than they were before.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 06:42:40


Post by: Not Online!!!


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Altima wrote:
Totally agree that something needs to be done, but I'm not convinced that raising defensive stats is enough since GW has shown that they will again and again increase the lethality of the game. We definitely need a defensive system that puts vehicles/MC's in another class other than box-shaped infantry.
GW's current trend of making anti-tank weapons more lethal (and less swingy ie. Dd6 vs Dd3+1) came without actually making vehicles any tougher.

This, to me at least, shows GW was trying to make AT weapons more attractive for actual AT work than 8th's issue with mid-strength, mid-damage multi-shot weapons being overall more effective due to having far more of those than expensive swingy AT weaponry, but because they don't understand (or just won't acknowledge) the core issue as to why AT weapons weren't being taken, they've left vehicles in an even worse position than they were before.


You know what also could've solved that?
A wound Charts that disallows everything can wound anything rather than increasing at lethality...


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 14:05:51


Post by: Tycho


 techsoldaten wrote:
Seabass wrote:
I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots

Yes. Some people have a tendency to mistake 'Good Enough' for 'Terrible.'

I agree with the concerns about the relative strength of a Predator and points cost. However, the difference is not so great that the Predator is completely outclassed.

If I was going to argue about Predators, I would be talking about CSM Predators compared to Primaris Repulsors. The later just has so many more shots in comparison, the points difference is not enough.


IDK if the Repulsor is the best comparison though. It's pretty much universally considered over-costed. Especially now that it can't "fly". I LOVE my Repulsor and my Repulsor Executioner, but they're ... not great for the points.

I think the Predator needs a points drop and options for cheap defensive upgrades. It works much better in lower point games than it does in the bigger battles. I think that's fine. It's kind of fun to have different units that see play at different points levels. If you look at it through this lens, it's not as far from "useful" as it might seem.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 14:18:30


Post by: Karol


 Black Knight wrote:
Also lets not forget the 72" range of the cannon on the castigator. A savvy opponent can put it in the corner of a board and fire just the battle cannon turn 1. Are you going to dedicate your eradicators/AB squad/anti tank to that corner of the board? Where they will be out of range of anything else till probably turn 3?

Probably not, and then your opponent can move it up turn 2/3 and target your eradicators/AB squad/anti tank units along with whatever else with the Heavy Bolters and live till at least turn 3.

There are strategies, but these are situational.


Not an expert on the new SoB codex, as it has not arrived here yet, and I did not download one. So I have a question. How does it ignore LoS, because unless the game is played on planet bowling ball ally, 72" range on a gun doesn't mean much in 9th ed. Not unless you fly or ignore LoS.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots


It is also free secondary points for the opponent.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 14:19:20


Post by: Lammia


Tycho wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Seabass wrote:
I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots

Yes. Some people have a tendency to mistake 'Good Enough' for 'Terrible.'

I agree with the concerns about the relative strength of a Predator and points cost. However, the difference is not so great that the Predator is completely outclassed.

If I was going to argue about Predators, I would be talking about CSM Predators compared to Primaris Repulsors. The later just has so many more shots in comparison, the points difference is not enough.


IDK if the Repulsor is the best comparison though. It's pretty much universally considered over-costed. Especially now that it can't "fly". I LOVE my Repulsor and my Repulsor Executioner, but they're ... not great for the points.

I think the Predator needs a points drop and options for cheap defensive upgrades. It works much better in lower point games than it does in the bigger battles. I think that's fine. It's kind of fun to have different units that see play at different points levels. If you look at it through this lens, it's not as far from "useful" as it might seem.
Chaos Predators compete with cultists to see who can inflict more wounds.

They're far from useful.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 14:26:34


Post by: Tycho


Lammia wrote:
Tycho wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Seabass wrote:
I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots

Yes. Some people have a tendency to mistake 'Good Enough' for 'Terrible.'

I agree with the concerns about the relative strength of a Predator and points cost. However, the difference is not so great that the Predator is completely outclassed.

If I was going to argue about Predators, I would be talking about CSM Predators compared to Primaris Repulsors. The later just has so many more shots in comparison, the points difference is not enough.



IDK if the Repulsor is the best comparison though. It's pretty much universally considered over-costed. Especially now that it can't "fly". I LOVE my Repulsor and my Repulsor Executioner, but they're ... not great for the points.

I think the Predator needs a points drop and options for cheap defensive upgrades. It works much better in lower point games than it does in the bigger battles. I think that's fine. It's kind of fun to have different units that see play at different points levels. If you look at it through this lens, it's not as far from "useful" as it might seem.
Chaos Predators compete with cultists to see who can inflict more wounds.

They're far from useful.



Nowhere did I say they were useful. I said they're a lot better in lower point games than they are in big games, need a points reduction, and need access to some cheap defensive buffs and that they're not AS FAR from useful.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 14:31:26


Post by: Lammia


They're farther from than you implied, even in low point games. They are just that bad


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 14:35:24


Post by: Karol


Tycho 798889 11144623 wrote:
Nowhere did I say they were useful. I said they're a lot better in lower point games than they are in big games, need a points reduction, and need access to some cheap defensive buffs and that they're not AS FAR from useful.


Okey, but that is like saying they could be good in crusade or outside of matched play. Plus useful is a binary term. You either are useful or you aren't useful. There is no in between.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 14:53:51


Post by: ERJAK


 Black Knight wrote:
Also lets not forget the 72" range of the cannon on the castigator. A savvy opponent can put it in the corner of a board and fire just the battle cannon turn 1. Are you going to dedicate your eradicators/AB squad/anti tank to that corner of the board? Where they will be out of range of anything else till probably turn 3?

Probably not, and then your opponent can move it up turn 2/3 and target your eradicators/AB squad/anti tank units along with whatever else with the Heavy Bolters and live till at least turn 3.

There are strategies, but these are situational.


No they can't. Board's not big enough for this to be viable. It's only 44" wide and 66" corner to corner. Also, Eradicators shoot 24" and most antitank is in the 36 to 48" range, even if you put it in the absolute corner most of the board they can still shoot it from a midfield objective. Or a deployment zone objective if they're in the same quadrant.

Of all the takes about this, this is the one that's definitively wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Altima wrote:
Totally agree that something needs to be done, but I'm not convinced that raising defensive stats is enough since GW has shown that they will again and again increase the lethality of the game. We definitely need a defensive system that puts vehicles/MC's in another class other than box-shaped infantry.
GW's current trend of making anti-tank weapons more lethal (and less swingy ie. Dd6 vs Dd3+1) came without actually making vehicles any tougher.

This, to me at least, shows GW was trying to make AT weapons more attractive for actual AT work than 8th's issue with mid-strength, mid-damage multi-shot weapons being overall more effective due to having far more of those than expensive swingy AT weaponry, but because they don't understand (or just won't acknowledge) the core issue as to why AT weapons weren't being taken, they've left vehicles in an even worse position than they were before.


You know what also could've solved that?
A wound Charts that disallows everything can wound anything rather than increasing at lethality...


Get off of this. The best anti-tank in 7th was scatterlasers so don't pretend like the old system was better or that the problem is that bolters can wound stuff on a 6 now.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Seabass wrote:
I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots

Yes. Some people have a tendency to mistake 'Good Enough' for 'Terrible.'

I agree with the concerns about the relative strength of a Predator and points cost. However, the difference is not so great that the Predator is completely outclassed.

If I was going to argue about Predators, I would be talking about CSM Predators compared to Primaris Repulsors. The later just has so many more shots in comparison, the points difference is not enough.


A predator is probably worth 30-50% of the value of an eradicator squad between being nowhere near as resilient and doing a bare fraction of the damage. It's also worse at capturing objectives and not as useful as an outflanker. It also has less buffs that it can benefit from.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 15:07:48


Post by: Tycho


Karol wrote:
Tycho 798889 11144623 wrote:
Nowhere did I say they were useful. I said they're a lot better in lower point games than they are in big games, need a points reduction, and need access to some cheap defensive buffs and that they're not AS FAR from useful.


Okey, but that is like saying they could be good in crusade or outside of matched play. Plus useful is a binary term. You either are useful or you aren't useful. There is no in between.


It is absolutely not binary. There are varying degrees of utility and usefulness. I'm not really sure what you mean by "... in crusade, or outside of matched play" either. Many groups play matched play at 1000-1200 points. Go take a look at the thread about interest in smaller games. The fact that your group doesn't is unfortunate, but it doesn't really mean it applies to everyone.


They're farther from than you implied, even in low point games. They are just that bad


I just don't agree. A good, solid points drop, some tweaks to the weapons, and options for some cheap defensive upgrades would have them competitive again fairly quickly.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 15:19:44


Post by: Blackie


Tanks and monsters don't need a complete re-think. Simply GW should remove some mechanics that allow insane buffs on some shooting models.

Tanks especially don't seem to shine because some specialists can be more durable or (sometimes even and) more killy for the same role. That's it. Make multimelta 35 points, avoid double tap and re-rolls, cost stratagems that enhance shooting 3CPs...

Vehicles are currently in one of their greatest moments ruleswise, their problem is related to those codexes where some other stuff can fulfill the same role more effectively, and IMHO it's those units/weapons/combos that should be addressed. In older editions vehicles had tons and tons of drawbacks but the much lower rate of fire and the more expensive/limited wargear on specialists made them more durable and more appealing. In some cases, with my orks vehicles have been terrible to mediocre for the entire 3rd-7th editions, except a single skew list in 5th with 3 BWs all with 4+ cover or ultraspammy lists with 8-10 trukks. Which are something that I hope I'll never see again, like any other list based on spamming stuff.

A predator for example is already fine at least, but the plethora of other units that perform the same role but better, in a codex with 200 datasheets, makes it sub-optimal.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 15:22:08


Post by: Daedalus81


ERJAK wrote:

No they can't. Board's not big enough for this to be viable. It's only 44" wide and 66" corner to corner. Also, Eradicators shoot 24" and most antitank is in the 36 to 48" range, even if you put it in the absolute corner most of the board they can still shoot it from a midfield objective. Or a deployment zone objective if they're in the same quadrant.

Of all the takes about this, this is the one that's definitively wrong.

A predator is probably worth 30-50% of the value of an eradicator squad between being nowhere near as resilient and doing a bare fraction of the damage. It's also worse at capturing objectives and not as useful as an outflanker.


You're not drawing line of sight straight across, sure. But you still have the advantage of an angle of attack when you move 12" as opposed to 5". Attack Bikes are not much faster than a Predator / Castigator. Eradicators suffer the same issues drawing LOS with the benefit of walking through buildings.

Then you have to consider the deployment zones that favor range like in missions 11, 13, 21, 22, 23, 32, and 33. Those either have deeper zones or the no man's land is 28" - an inch shy out of the full range of Eradicators.

I don't think anyone should take multiple vehicles, but one that fills a role well and you're able to make good trades with it would do fine.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 15:45:11


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
Tycho 798889 11144623 wrote:
Nowhere did I say they were useful. I said they're a lot better in lower point games than they are in big games, need a points reduction, and need access to some cheap defensive buffs and that they're not AS FAR from useful.


Okey, but that is like saying they could be good in crusade or outside of matched play. Plus useful is a binary term. You either are useful or you aren't useful. There is no in between.


The good old dakkadakka mantra: Units are either OP Needs Nerfs or Worthless Unplayable Trash.

They are my space marines, and they shall know...no....nuance!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote:


A predator is probably worth 30-50% of the value of an eradicator squad between being nowhere near as resilient and doing a bare fraction of the damage. It's also worse at capturing objectives and not as useful as an outflanker. It also has less buffs that it can benefit from.


I'm sorry....just to be clear here, you're saying that a predator would be properly costed at 40-68 points in your book?

And that a squad that, last I checked, has 9 T5 Sv3+ wounds total is more durable than a vehicle with 11 T7 3+ wounds total?



Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 15:55:09


Post by: techsoldaten


ERJAK wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Seabass wrote:
I think the predator is fine. I have a list with 3 dakka predators that seem to do ok. it's not meta breaking or anything, but they're fine for their purpose.

it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots

Yes. Some people have a tendency to mistake 'Good Enough' for 'Terrible.'

I agree with the concerns about the relative strength of a Predator and points cost. However, the difference is not so great that the Predator is completely outclassed.

If I was going to argue about Predators, I would be talking about CSM Predators compared to Primaris Repulsors. The later just has so many more shots in comparison, the points difference is not enough.


A predator is probably worth 30-50% of the value of an eradicator squad between being nowhere near as resilient and doing a bare fraction of the damage. It's also worse at capturing objectives and not as useful as an outflanker. It also has less buffs that it can benefit from.


You're kind of making the point for me.

All these things may be true (I'd argue about capturing objectives, but don't want to derail the conversation.) But that doesn't make it worthless, even though it's less points efficient.

If your CSM army also features 2 squads of Obliterators, you might be taking a Dakkapred to fill out Heavy Support. 2 outstanding units plus one good enough unit - which may be there completely for the purpose of distraction - is not a bad play.

Comparing the Chaos Predator with a Redemptor, we have two sub-par units subject to a lot of valid criticism. The point difference being what it is, a Redemptor is simply a more capable tank. Assuming other things are roughly equal, a triple Redemptor list is going to win over a triple Pred list probably 80% of the time.

The real problem is the Chaos tanks are outclassed. The individual points almost don't matter so long as one unit can fire 40+ times per turn and the other can only fire 8. A marginal difference in toughness and saves doesn't matter very much for single model units that are likely to get attention from high damage weapons.

We often focus on points cost instead of other factors. I'd rather have an overcosted, mediocre unit than something that's highly points efficient and completely outclassed.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 16:12:04


Post by: ERJAK


 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Tycho 798889 11144623 wrote:
Nowhere did I say they were useful. I said they're a lot better in lower point games than they are in big games, need a points reduction, and need access to some cheap defensive buffs and that they're not AS FAR from useful.


Okey, but that is like saying they could be good in crusade or outside of matched play. Plus useful is a binary term. You either are useful or you aren't useful. There is no in between.


The good old dakkadakka mantra: Units are either OP Needs Nerfs or Worthless Unplayable Trash.

They are my space marines, and they shall know...no....nuance!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote:


A predator is probably worth 30-50% of the value of an eradicator squad between being nowhere near as resilient and doing a bare fraction of the damage. It's also worse at capturing objectives and not as useful as an outflanker. It also has less buffs that it can benefit from.


I'm sorry....just to be clear here, you're saying that a predator would be properly costed at 40-68 points in your book?

And that a squad that, last I checked, has 9 T5 Sv3+ wounds total is more durable than a vehicle with 11 T7 3+ wounds total?



The first bit was hyperbole. Fair enough.

The second bit is true. A predator can't get cover, a predator is harder to hide, a predator is a giant screeching melta magnet. Eradicators can sometimes force lost damage. The predators numbers are bigger which is why GW thinks it's almost as good eradicators but doesn't represent its practical survivability.

Both of them are high priority targets for multidamage, high strength weapons. For the weapons that are going to be shooting at them, both will take roughly 3 shots to kill. The difference is that the predator can (and often does) die in 2 and Eradicators always take at least 3.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 18:22:54


Post by: Black Knight


Not an expert on the new SoB codex, as it has not arrived here yet, and I did not download one. So I have a question. How does it ignore LoS, because unless the game is played on planet bowling ball ally, 72" range on a gun doesn't mean much in 9th ed. Not unless you fly or ignore LoS.




Well of course it has to be a 6ft by 4ft board ( the new minimum board sizes by GW are laughable, our group will always use 6x4 ) and you do need line of sight. It is situational but it can easily happen in about half your games, assuming terrain is properly randomized on the board.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 18:55:35


Post by: SemperMortis


ERJAK wrote:


Capable of nothing. Both die in a single volley to the majority of current anti-tank weapons, both do significantly less damage than an equivalent point value of a better unit(eradicators or retributors respectively). They are neither as survivable or as potent as their closest peers. There's no place for either at their current point values. Which is why you never see them.


T7, 11 wounds 3+ save.

Vs, 10 Tankbustas = 10 shots, 3.33 hits, 6.67 rerolls for another 2.22 hits, total 5.55 hits, add in exploding 6s another 1.5 hits including further rerolls. Total of 7 hits. Against T7 that is 4.66 wounds Vs a 3+ save which becomes a 5+ = 9.33 dmg. Still very much alive, tankbustas are than dead next turn.

Vs 15 Lootas = 30 shots, 11.6 hits (including DDD), Vs T7 = 5.8, -1AP = 2.9 wounds for 2dmg each or 5.8dmg. Very much alive....not even bracketed.

Vs 4 smasha Gunz = 8 shots, 4.6 hits = about 2.7 wounds (7+ on 2 dice) for 9.4dmg on average. Still alive.

10 Tankbustas = 170pts
15 Lootas = 300pts
4 Smasha Gunz = 160pts.

I mean, I think a Predator isn't super competitive, but it isn't exactly flimsy. Its only weak vs ridiculously broken things like the new DE weapons or the Eradicators or MM units running around in SM lists.





Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 19:32:58


Post by: the_scotsman


ERJAK wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Tycho 798889 11144623 wrote:
Nowhere did I say they were useful. I said they're a lot better in lower point games than they are in big games, need a points reduction, and need access to some cheap defensive buffs and that they're not AS FAR from useful.


Okey, but that is like saying they could be good in crusade or outside of matched play. Plus useful is a binary term. You either are useful or you aren't useful. There is no in between.


The good old dakkadakka mantra: Units are either OP Needs Nerfs or Worthless Unplayable Trash.

They are my space marines, and they shall know...no....nuance!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote:


A predator is probably worth 30-50% of the value of an eradicator squad between being nowhere near as resilient and doing a bare fraction of the damage. It's also worse at capturing objectives and not as useful as an outflanker. It also has less buffs that it can benefit from.


I'm sorry....just to be clear here, you're saying that a predator would be properly costed at 40-68 points in your book?

And that a squad that, last I checked, has 9 T5 Sv3+ wounds total is more durable than a vehicle with 11 T7 3+ wounds total?



The first bit was hyperbole. Fair enough.

The second bit is true. A predator can't get cover, a predator is harder to hide, a predator is a giant screeching melta magnet. Eradicators can sometimes force lost damage. The predators numbers are bigger which is why GW thinks it's almost as good eradicators but doesn't represent its practical survivability.

Both of them are high priority targets for multidamage, high strength weapons. For the weapons that are going to be shooting at them, both will take roughly 3 shots to kill. The difference is that the predator can (and often does) die in 2 and Eradicators always take at least 3.


Meltas are absolutely more effective vs predators (read: vehicles in general) than eradicators, mostly by nature of the fact that almost all the stat advantages that the pred does have are offset by the particular statline of the melta. generally, at least in the eradicator comparison, the limiting factor is that its vastly easier to get an eradicator in melta range than it is to get a predator in melta range.

the main problem at this point that I think gw needs to contend with is the fact that the microboard functionally means there's no such thing as a 'safe backline' unit anymore that you can use to count on range as one of the ways you're avoiding firepower. It is trivial to get any target within range of a 24" gun in 9th edition.

Personally my preferred solution to the problem of 'suicide spike damage unit instantly blows up my big tank' would be a re-introduction of the vehicle damage table as an option - you as the defender can choose to ignore an instance of damage to roll on a critical hit table of being immobilized/weapons destroyed/etc etc. Either that or just go the AOS route of having big things having bigger numbers.

A big model in aos has like 36 wounds.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 19:55:59


Post by: Karol


They could start giving tanks more wounds and higher T, if they don't want to make the only valid vehicles those that are ultra cheap or high utility with good fire power.

No idea why a Knight shouldn't be T10 or T12 in case of a castellan. And stuff would have more spread too. when all vehicles are carbon copies of each other, the special rules and arment per point costs decide for people what is valid and what is not. Maybe predators should have more wounds, heck maybe a chaos predator dedicated to nurgle should have even more wounds then a regular predator. Maybe a lemman russ should be more tough, and I mean substentially tougher, then a predator. Maybe the ork stuff should be ramshackled stuff with lower T, with exeptions of heavy armoured stuff like a wagon or stomp or a naut, but the vehicles orks have should have a ton of wounds. The eldar stuff could be low T, low W, but with invs and the whole minus to hit etc. Would make vehicles feel different, and not just, this vehcile is this other armis vehicle only without the good rules. Like in case of lets say the impulsor and raider.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 20:29:56


Post by: leerm02


I do love how this thread basically became:

"Make tanks great again!"

Of which I heartily approve :-)


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 20:32:38


Post by: Voss


leerm02 wrote:
I do love how this thread basically became:

"Make tanks great again!"

Of which I heartily approve :-)


Not surprising, though. Even the shiny new space marine tanks were kinda meh.
Can't think of the last time a proper tank came out and was impressive. Or even an old one got updated in a positive way.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 20:46:12


Post by: Altima


Karol wrote:
They could start giving tanks more wounds and higher T, if they don't want to make the only valid vehicles those that are ultra cheap or high utility with good fire power.

No idea why a Knight shouldn't be T10 or T12 in case of a castellan. And stuff would have more spread too. when all vehicles are carbon copies of each other, the special rules and arment per point costs decide for people what is valid and what is not. Maybe predators should have more wounds, heck maybe a chaos predator dedicated to nurgle should have even more wounds then a regular predator. Maybe a lemman russ should be more tough, and I mean substentially tougher, then a predator. Maybe the ork stuff should be ramshackled stuff with lower T, with exeptions of heavy armoured stuff like a wagon or stomp or a naut, but the vehicles orks have should have a ton of wounds. The eldar stuff could be low T, low W, but with invs and the whole minus to hit etc. Would make vehicles feel different, and not just, this vehcile is this other armis vehicle only without the good rules. Like in case of lets say the impulsor and raider.


The problem with relying on toughness as the equalizer is that we're starting to see more and more auto-wound weapons/strategems which would do nothing for these high toughness units. Plus we don't want to invalidate devoted AT weapons even more.

Vehicle/MC survivability should be addressed as a class first, then layer on army specific benefits on top of that such as orks' ramshackles, something with Imperial machine spirits, Necron living metal, tyranid regeneration, Dark/Eldar hyper advanced technology, etc. This means that not only are your base units survivable, the uniqueness of each faction can still be preserved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:


Not surprising, though. Even the shiny new space marine tanks were kinda meh.
Can't think of the last time a proper tank came out and was impressive. Or even an old one got updated in a positive way.


DE Raider. People were extremely offended that it performed its intended role as a transport, didn't break the bank on points cost, and could put out around 15 wounds in a game on average. Arguably overcosted upgrades though. Not a MBT but as close as you'd get in most Dark Eldar lists with the Ravager falling out of favor. Especially relevant since most DE lists are required to run at least four of the things, if not more.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 21:39:54


Post by: Seabass


Karol wrote:


it's kind of cheeky to run 3 Baal predators and 3 Dakka predators. yeah, its a lot of points, but that's a LOT of shots


It is also free secondary points for the opponent.


12 points at max. And it is worth mentioning that 6 t7 tanks do have some difficulty in removing, especially when they're removing things in return. Like I said, it's not perfect, not competitive, but it is VERY fun to play. Toss in a few techmarines to give them +1 to hit or repair them and it's surprising just how much that you can catch someone off guard.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 21:49:31


Post by: yukishiro1


GW has had big issues with battle tanks for a very long time now. Hardly any of them see play; the tanks you do see are almost all artillery or transports, i.e. stuff that either doesn't get shot at, or as a function other than just going out and shooting stuff.

There has to be some reason for that, it is such a clear pattern replicated across the entire game. I don't know if it is that the designers just don't really understand how their game is really played, or if there are philosophical objections to making battle tanks competitive, but it's surely not some big coincidence that almost all of them are non-competitive.



Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 21:51:45


Post by: Canadian 5th


 techsoldaten wrote:
If your CSM army also features 2 squads of Obliterators, you might be taking a Dakkapred to fill out Heavy Support. 2 outstanding units plus one good enough unit - which may be there completely for the purpose of distraction - is not a bad play.

What if your opponent is actually skilled and doesn't fall for your distraction unit and instead focuses on their objectives and units that threaten those plans?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 23:10:38


Post by: Seabass


 Canadian 5th wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
If your CSM army also features 2 squads of Obliterators, you might be taking a Dakkapred to fill out Heavy Support. 2 outstanding units plus one good enough unit - which may be there completely for the purpose of distraction - is not a bad play.

What if your opponent is actually skilled and doesn't fall for your distraction unit and instead focuses on their objectives and units that threaten those plans?


Then they get picked on by a D3 autocannon with 2D3 shots a turn plus the HB sponsons, which are a lot better now? I don't think you are going to revolutionize the meta with it, but the weapons on a predator aren't its problem. They are a threat, and 6 obliterators can be pretty difficult to remove if supported well.

Side note, does the CSM codex still have killshot? It might, if it does, that strategy, now that they are able to move and shoot without penalty, may be worth revisiting. (Well, that and RR1s from a lord until that changes) *edit: Nevermind, it only works on vehicles and monsters, I forgot. I'm not sure if they would have the target availability they need to justify that.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 23:17:54


Post by: BlaxicanX


 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?
What a meme argument. You are aware that both Disney and games workshop are making more money today than at any other point in the history of their companies right?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/09 23:40:15


Post by: techsoldaten


 Canadian 5th wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
If your CSM army also features 2 squads of Obliterators, you might be taking a Dakkapred to fill out Heavy Support. 2 outstanding units plus one good enough unit - which may be there completely for the purpose of distraction - is not a bad play.

What if your opponent is actually skilled and doesn't fall for your distraction unit and instead focuses on their objectives and units that threaten those plans?


Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 01:55:00


Post by: Jarms48


If all the Predator variants dropped by 20 points they'd probably be alright. A Predator Destructor with 2 heavy bolters would be 150 points. 10 points less than the Castigator, sure the Castigator still gets more shots, an extra heavy bolter, and that 6++ but those saved points can almost get you a free Tech Marine.

Same goes for the Predator Annihilator with 2 lascannons, that'd be 150 points as well. 15 points cheaper than the Castigator with the battle cannon, much more reliable shooting too. A reliable source of 4 shots compared to D6, sure the Castigator could use a miracle dice but that's a limited resource.

Another thing Marines could probably get is to bring back the old Self-Repair rule for all of their Rhino based vehicles. Just make it a regain 1 wound at the start of every command phase, not a huge buff but it's something.



Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 04:24:34


Post by: Canadian 5th


Seabass wrote:
Then they get picked on by a D3 autocannon with 2D3 shots a turn plus the HB sponsons, which are a lot better now?

What is this supposed to be bringing to your list that can't be better accomplished by another unit? What are the targets in the meta that you'd expect these 8-12 mid-strength shots to deal with?

I don't think you are going to revolutionize the meta with it, but the weapons on a predator aren't its problem.

I disagree. We're talking about a 160 point, minimum, platform that takes an average of 5 wounds off of a Raider, which needs a high roll to kill 2 DA Terminators, and which doesn't push the pace in terms of helping you score points.

You'd only be taking it for its damage output and it just doesn't deal that much damage.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 04:25:26


Post by: Lammia


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
If your CSM army also features 2 squads of Obliterators, you might be taking a Dakkapred to fill out Heavy Support. 2 outstanding units plus one good enough unit - which may be there completely for the purpose of distraction - is not a bad play.

What if your opponent is actually skilled and doesn't fall for your distraction unit and instead focuses on their objectives and units that threaten those plans?


Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.
It's pretty safely ignored.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 04:28:44


Post by: Canadian 5th


 techsoldaten wrote:
Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

See above. They don't actually accomplish that much even if left to free fire all game and that's assuming that they're on a board that gives them fire lanes to shoot at anything.

Even then, you don't literally ignore them for an entire game, you just don't make them a priority until you've dealt with the actual threats your opponent has brought to the table. These 'distraction units' are really a trap for bad players, skilled players won't worry about them and will probably be happy you've decided to waste points on them instead of a unit that actually impacts that game meaningfully.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 04:45:49


Post by: Argive


Wasn't there a time where predator kill shot was a viable thing to run ?
It was s a bit gimmicky and really big alpha swing though..

Not sure if preds have been good since I started playing.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 04:46:55


Post by: bat702


If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 05:09:06


Post by: Altima


 BlaxicanX wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
The best sign of a company running on fumes is when cannibalizing their best history. Disney is a similar pos company destroying legacy for the new money and failing splendidly. GW is coming close to last jedi territory with Mary Sue marines ...

The saddest part is that they could have just kept making their best core units, but better. Why not new boyz? Why not an updated predator?

Moreover, why does every army need every thing in the armoury? Why should sisters bea stand alone army with examples of every type of unit of equal power as any other army’s? Why not call upon local guardsmen for armor? Why should sob have a main battle tank at al! Rare relics sure but is this how they will be played?
What a meme argument. You are aware that both Disney and games workshop are making more money today than at any other point in the history of their companies right?


I'm guessing by context that the original poster mean that, creatively Disney is running on fumes. Which makes sense, as they seem to have stopped doing anything original themselves and are just relying on existing IP's and nostalgia and not even properly capitalizing on those, just going through the motions on what they think will make them the most money and getting their hands on as many existing, successful IP's as money will let them.

While I can't say the same argument can be made of GW, I do think that there might be a point if we just look at 40k.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 05:22:26


Post by: H.B.M.C.


bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.
It's not just damage output. It's durability.

Tanks don't have any in 8th/9th. Monsters don't either.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 05:24:41


Post by: ZergSmasher


Vehicles just need to have like double their current wounds or something. Then they would require actual effort to kill.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 06:44:58


Post by: Jarms48


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Vehicles just need to have like double their current wounds or something. Then they would require actual effort to kill.


Maybe not that much, but yes, agreed. Vehicles do need more wounds. I'd do something like:

Space Marines:
- Anything on a Rhino hull gets Self-Repair: Regains 1 wound every Command Phase.
- All Primaris Tanks (Impulsor, Gladiator, Repulsor) can purchase Shield Domes.
- Sicarans, and Land Raiders get -1 damage.

Spoiler:

6 Wound Vehicles:
- Land Speeder

8 Wound Vehicles:
- Storm Speeder

10 Wound Vehicles:
- Hunter
- Impulsor
- Javelin Attack Speeder
- Razorback
- Rhino
- Stalker
- Whirlwind

12 Wound Vehicles:
- Gladiator
- Predator
- Vindicator

14 Wound Vehicles:
- Sicaran

18 Wound Vehicles:
- Land Raider
- Repulsor


Imperial Guard:
- Anything on a Leman Russ (as well as any tank larger than a Leman Russ, Malcador, Macharius, or Baneblade) hull should get a 2+ save against Ranged attacks (3+ save in Engagement range). This represents the old front armour 14, which made the Russ as durable as a Land Raider while also making it vulnerable in close combat.

Spoiler:

6 Wound Vehicles:
- Armoured Sentinel
- Centaur Light Carrier
- Hades Breaching Drill
- Scout Sentinel
- Tauros Assault Vehicle
- Tauros Venator

10 Wound Vehicles:
- Armageddon-pattern Basilisks
- Armageddon-pattern Medusas
- Basilisk
- Chimera
- Deathstrike
- Hydra
- Manticore
- Salamander Scout Tanks
- Salamander Command Vehicle
- Taurox
- Taurox Prime
- Trojan Support Vehicle
- Wyvern

12 Wound Vehicles:
- Carnodon
- Hellhound

14 Wound Vehicles:
- Colossus Bombard
- Leman Russ
- Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter
- Thunderer

18 Wound Vehicles:
- Malcador
- Valdor Tank Hunter


Another thing we could do to buff vehicle durability is levels of vehicles by adding keywords. Such as:
- Light Vehicle: Anything up to 10 wounds.
- Medium Vehicle: 11 - 15 wounds.
- Heavy vehicle: 16 wounds or more.

Each of these would have some relationship with a level of AP.
- Light vehicles: No effect.
- Medium vehicles: Ignore AP-1. That way things like mass heavy bolter or autocannon fire will be less of an impact. You would actually have to bring missile launchers to do something.
- Heavy vehicles: Ignore AP-2. So you would need things like lascannons or meltas to kill them reliably.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 10:10:19


Post by: Galas


I mean in an age of most heavy infantry being 3 wounds theres no place for 10-12 wound medium vehicles specially when having 3-3-3 wounds is much better than a single 10 wound model. Has been a (good, in my eyes), stat creep for all infantry and bikes in this game. But vehicles have been left out. Maybe in 10th it will be their turn, idk.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 10:41:43


Post by: Blackie


 Galas wrote:
I mean in an age of most heavy infantry being 3 wounds theres no place for 10-12 wound medium vehicles specially when having 3-3-3 wounds is much better than a single 10 wound model. Has been a (good, in my eyes), stat creep for all infantry and bikes in this game. But vehicles have been left out. Maybe in 10th it will be their turn, idk.


I completely agree. 6-10 wounds on light/medium vehicles made sense if most of the infantries were 1W. Now they need a re-think in that sense. Or specific rules to severely reduce the damage taken. Or maybe powerful weapons should cripple the units they target if they kill one model: one 3W dude dies and the other two can only fire on 6s and/or can't charge next turn.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 11:08:31


Post by: techsoldaten


 Canadian 5th wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

See above. They don't actually accomplish that much even if left to free fire all game and that's assuming that they're on a board that gives them fire lanes to shoot at anything.


The meta must have really changed.

A T7 / 11 wound unit with 6 S5 AP -1 / 2D6 S7 AP-1 shots used to be something skilled players don't ignore.

And every unit needs a "fire lane." Is there a 9th ed rule that makes that harder for Predators?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Even then, you don't literally ignore them for an entire game, you just don't make them a priority until you've dealt with the actual threats your opponent has brought to the table. These 'distraction units' are really a trap for bad players, skilled players won't worry about them and will probably be happy you've decided to waste points on them instead of a unit that actually impacts that game meaningfully.


Oh, you didn't mean what you said before. My bad.

Your explanation of target priority clears up so many mysteries about 40k, I really appreciate you for spelling out such a baffling concept. Always thought opponents just aimed at whatever looked scariest.

Now tell me the CSM unit with better stats for ~130 points. Assume I'm maxed out on troop choices.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 11:25:58


Post by: KurtAngle2


bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


Just have it be D6 with minimum 3 Damage and you've fixed the weapon, not everything needs to be 3+D3 damage


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 11:29:46


Post by: Karol


Is there a 9th ed rule that makes that harder for Predators?

Mass use of LoS blocking terrain, and lack of fly or ignore LoS on the predator.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 11:50:54


Post by: the_scotsman


bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 12:28:17


Post by: Lammia


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Then you drop a lot of Heavy Bolter and Battlecannon shots on your opponent throughout the game.

It's not safely ignored.

See above. They don't actually accomplish that much even if left to free fire all game and that's assuming that they're on a board that gives them fire lanes to shoot at anything.


The meta must have really changed.

A T7 / 11 wound unit with 6 S5 AP -1 / 2D6 S7 AP-1 shots used to be something skilled players don't ignore.

And every unit needs a "fire lane." Is there a 9th ed rule that makes that harder for Predators?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Even then, you don't literally ignore them for an entire game, you just don't make them a priority until you've dealt with the actual threats your opponent has brought to the table. These 'distraction units' are really a trap for bad players, skilled players won't worry about them and will probably be happy you've decided to waste points on them instead of a unit that actually impacts that game meaningfully.


Oh, you didn't mean what you said before. My bad.

Your explanation of target priority clears up so many mysteries about 40k, I really appreciate you for spelling out such a baffling concept. Always thought opponents just aimed at whatever looked scariest.

Now tell me the CSM unit with better stats for ~130 points. Assume I'm maxed out on troop choices.
Venom Crawler(or whetever it's called. Spooider)


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 12:36:45


Post by: Not Online!!!


Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 12:44:43


Post by: iGuy91


The advantages the Castigator has.
Access to miracle dice, 1 more sponson weapon, More main weapon shots, Main weapon has anti-armor and infantry profiles, and basically the same price.

So my suggestion to remedy this is

Predator Tank (110 Points)
M 12" WS 6+ BS 3+ S 6 T 7 W 12 A * LD8 Save 3+
Degrades M/BS/A at 6/3

The Predator is armed with a Predator Autocannon
The Predator can replace its Predator Autocannon with a Predator Lascannon for +20 Points

The Predator can add 2 sponson heavy Bolters for +10 points, Or two sponson Lascannons for +20 Points
The Predator can add a Hunter-Killer Missile for +5 pts
The Predator can add a Storm Bolter for +5 pts

Predator Autocannon
Heavy 6 STR 7, AP-1, 3 Damage
Predator Lascannon

Heavy 2 STR 9, AP-3, d3+3 Damage

No updates to the Sponson Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Hunter-Killer missile, or Storm Bolter.


New Special Rule

Killshot - The predator is a master of maneuvering to put concentrated firepower on priority targets. If a Predator Tank targets all of its weapons on a single target, it gains +1 to wound against that target for the shooting phase.




Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 12:46:43


Post by: Not Online!!!


Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 13:25:53


Post by: Gadzilla666


 the_scotsman wrote:
bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.

You are aware that lascannons are used by other factions besides Imperials, right? And that they're the primary source of ranged AT for those factions, because they don't have widely available access to multi-meltas?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?

Or let them mount Laser Destroyers. Or Volkites.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 13:30:28


Post by: Quasistellar


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.

You are aware that lascannons are used by other factions besides Imperials, right? And that they're the primary source of ranged AT for those factions, because they don't have widely available access to multi-meltas?


Listen, it's not allowed to even TALK about any problems with the game's most popular faction until every other faction has had. . . something. . . done to it.

(listen I don't disagree some other factions need more love first, but if he wants to talk about them he should make a thread about them instead of crapping on a thread about Predators)


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 13:35:54


Post by: Daedalus81


Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.


The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 13:56:36


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Not Online!!! wrote:
Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?


we used to have access to the 30k predator loadouts but it got legend'd. Its a shame because it reflected perfectly the difference between loyalists and traitors.

Conversion beam
Infernus cannon
Magna-melta
Plasma destroyer

were all legal turret weapons with a choice of Heavy Bolter/Heavy flamers / lascannons as sponsons.

made me super sad to see it go. (At least i didnt buy the models only to get shafter with legends)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.


The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.


realistically, if you're taking venomcrawlers, you're bringing a disco lord with them, bringing them to BS/WS 3+


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 14:00:21


Post by: Xenomancers


 the_scotsman wrote:
bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


You know what, you're right, it's been way too long since imperial weaponry saw a statline pass - after all, it's not like any other factions are waiting on any kind of catchup. Tyranid, Eldar, Tau, and Ork weapon lineups feel really really great currently compared to the newly updated imperial weapons like multimeltas and heavy bolters.

Admech has d3 +3 lascannons. If they predator had that it would be pretty good.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 14:02:30


Post by: SemperMortis


 iGuy91 wrote:
The advantages the Castigator has.
Access to miracle dice, 1 more sponson weapon, More main weapon shots, Main weapon has anti-armor and infantry profiles, and basically the same price.

So my suggestion to remedy this is

Predator Tank (110 Points)
M 12" WS 6+ BS 3+ S 6 T 7 W 12 A * LD8 Save 3+
Degrades M/BS/A at 6/3

The Predator is armed with a Predator Autocannon
The Predator can replace its Predator Autocannon with a Predator Lascannon for +20 Points

The Predator can add 2 sponson heavy Bolters for +10 points, Or two sponson Lascannons for +20 Points
The Predator can add a Hunter-Killer Missile for +5 pts
The Predator can add a Storm Bolter for +5 pts

Predator Autocannon
Heavy 6 STR 7, AP-1, 3 Damage
Predator Lascannon

Heavy 2 STR 9, AP-3, d3+3 Damage

No updates to the Sponson Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Hunter-Killer missile, or Storm Bolter.


New Special Rule

Killshot - The predator is a master of maneuvering to put concentrated firepower on priority targets. If a Predator Tank targets all of its weapons on a single target, it gains +1 to wound against that target for the shooting phase.


Happily ignoring all the extra buffs you gave the predator, i just want to highlight the predator auto-cannon by itself 110pts for 6 S7 Ap-1 3dmg shots. Averages 4 hits, and against T7 2 wounds, against a 3+ save thats 3dmg.

For 110...hell, for 160pts I can take 8 Lootas, thats on average 16 shots, 6.2 hits, 3.1 wounds for 1.5 unsaved wounds and...3dmg on average. Don't worry though, those 8 lootas are significantly more durable with their T4 6+ saves.

I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why. A few additions ago a predator tank came standard with a single Auto-cannon, not a 2D3 shot or whatever the hell it is now. Heavy bolters are now 2dmg, Meltas are D6+2, melta rifles are D6+4 etc etc etc. yeah, lets keep buffing weapons and than complain that vehicles don't survive very long.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 14:03:24


Post by: Daedalus81


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
realistically, if you're taking venomcrawlers, you're bringing a disco lord with them, bringing them to BS/WS 3+


Yea, though that then forces you into multiple daemon engines to make it worth it since he's so expensive on top of him being a huge target you'd probably want two. And at that point you've drastically limited how your army can function.

I do imagine they're going to reconfigure him given that DG engines went to WS/BS3.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 14:13:22


Post by: Gadzilla666


VladimirHerzog wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Chaos preds could get access to some other CSM AC's, F.e. what speaks against a twin Hades AC pred?
Indeed why not give it the larger plas guns from the daemonengine?


we used to have access to the 30k predator loadouts but it got legend'd. Its a shame because it reflected perfectly the difference between loyalists and traitors.

Conversion beam
Infernus cannon
Magna-melta
Plasma destroyer

were all legal turret weapons with a choice of Heavy Bolter/Heavy flamers / lascannons as sponsons.

made me super sad to see it go. (At least i didnt buy the models only to get shafter with legends)

Now, now. We can't be having the veterans of the Horus Heresy using more Heresy era units than the thin bloods who've since switched to using Cawl tech. That would just be unfair. And totally un-thematic.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.


The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.

It's also damned ugly. And doesn't fit in with Legions that don't go in for daemonic mumbo-jumbo.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 14:23:46


Post by: bullyboy


KurtAngle2 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
If games-workshop just gives las-cannons all d3+3 damage, and a buff to the standard auto-cannon then the predator would have a place on the table again.


Just have it be D6 with minimum 3 Damage and you've fixed the weapon, not everything needs to be 3+D3 damage


D3+3 was a huge mistake that IMHO should be changed to D6 with a min damage of 3. We all know that brightlances are also going to get this rule. Just think about how precarious it will be for armour once Tau and Eldar have codex releases, it will make today seem like a walk in the park.

The best thing that GW could do right now is amp up the cost of MMs and change D3+3 back to D6 with minimum 3. Otherwise, tanks are for fun only.

edit: I'm not against the D3+3 being on a relic weapon that maybe cost a CP (like the Tau Ion Accelerator), but just tossed around willy-nilly seems wrong.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 14:32:43


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It's also damned ugly. And doesn't fit in with Legions that don't go in for daemonic mumbo-jumbo.


Don't shame my spooderbois! They're beautiful!


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 14:38:48


Post by: H.B.M.C.


SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 15:09:30


Post by: Not Online!!!


 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye, the venom crawler basically has the same dakka, actual melee damage, daemon synergy, provides synergy for summoning but that is fringe, has an invul ontop of it.


The VC is 110 at present. It moves slower, WS/BS of 4, has one gun that does half the shots with a decreasing strength and DD3 damage instead of flat 3 as well as 1 less wound. It damn well better have an invuln, because it has to close distance and be in more danger to make the most of it.


realistically, if you're taking venomcrawlers, you're bringing a disco lord with them, bringing them to BS/WS 3+


This, Daemon stuff right now is often a bit of the better bet for CSM, might aswell go the full mile with a good HQ and ignore that. Did we mention that the Venom also does regenerate...
Basically sure technically it's "worse" baseline, except it slots into the synergy of the army far better then the predator, or indeed any old astartes tank, for reasons unknown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!


t8, move land raider and vindicators to t9, indeed to the equivalents in other factions sofar they exist should do so too.
if that still isn't enough, hand out to the heavier vehicles like the raider SV 2+.

Bonus points if the wounding chart will stop allowing lasguns and boltguns to scratch Chimeras, rhinos and devilfish / falcons.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 15:23:24


Post by: Xenomancers


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!

No - space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop. DL and LC have been equal for a while now...literally 0 balance reason they shouldn't be equal as well.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 15:30:03


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!

No - space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop. DL and LC have been equal for a while now...literally 0 balance reason they shouldn't be equal as well.


Yes, and than right after we buff Xenos equivalent anti-tank weapons to D3+3 lascannons and D6+2 and D6+4 Meltas and double shot Meltas you and the rest of the Imperial contingent will cry foul and demand that Predators and rhinos come standard with a 4+ invuln save and 24 wounds each. I'm exaggerating a bit here (maybe..) but that is what these weapon upgrades will do. If you don't want to nerf melta, if you don't want Lascannons toned down, than you better not complain when xenos factions get their equivalent buffs.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 15:41:51


Post by: bullyboy


Darklances and las were not equal. One was S8 -4AP, the other S9 -3AP. I'd rather be wounding on 3's vs T8 than maybe allowing a 6+ save.
I think lascannons and their bright dark equivalents (plus admech cog whatevers) should be D6 with minimum 3. Then let the differences just remain Strength and AP. Damage must be reduced or cost must go up. Current situation is not viable.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 15:45:16


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I agree that vehicles of basically all sorts need a durability increase, but these rampant gun buffs are the reason why.
Exactly. We don't need to buff the Predator's guns. We need to buff the Predator itself!

No - space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop. DL and LC have been equal for a while now...literally 0 balance reason they shouldn't be equal as well.


Yes, and than right after we buff Xenos equivalent anti-tank weapons to D3+3 lascannons and D6+2 and D6+4 Meltas and double shot Meltas you and the rest of the Imperial contingent will cry foul and demand that Predators and rhinos come standard with a 4+ invuln save and 24 wounds each. I'm exaggerating a bit here (maybe..) but that is what these weapon upgrades will do. If you don't want to nerf melta, if you don't want Lascannons toned down, than you better not complain when xenos factions get their equivalent buffs.

Where am I complaining about xenos buffs? I am complainging that the space marine lascannon is just worse than the admech one and the DE variant for no legitimate reason. It's exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

It is in fact the main reason the predator is unplayable. If it had 4 DL equilvants - it would be worth considering.

I totally agree xenos weapons need to be updated. Wraith guard for example...I say...just give them flat 6 damage on their D cannons at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
Darklances and las were not equal. One was S8 -4AP, the other S9 -3AP. I'd rather be wounding on 3's vs T8 than maybe allowing a 6+ save.
I think lascannons and their bright dark equivalents (plus admech cog whatevers) should be D6 with minimum 3. Then let the differences just remain Strength and AP. Damage must be reduced or cost must go up. Current situation is not viable.

They were are equal in a trade off. They are situationally better in some situations - both of them.

I don't think the weapons current stats is a problem. The issue is the Wound stat on a single model is overvalued. GW seems to think that adding 4 wounds to a 12 wound unit is a significant increase in durability. It is not. See repuslors. Vehicals really just need more wounds. Increase all vehical wounds by something like...30-40% and they will be in a better place. I am totally fine with a DL 1 shotting a custodian or a centurion. It should.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 15:53:25


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:

Where am I complaining about xenos buffs? I am complainging that the space marine lascannon is just worse than the admech one and the DE variant for no legitimate reason. It's exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

It is in fact the main reason the predator is unplayable. If it had 4 DL equilvants - it would be worth considering.


You are, in a post about helping make the predator more competitive, asking for Anti-tank weapons to be heavily upgraded, raising average dmg from 3.5 per wound to 5. This on the heals of Imperial Melta weaponry getting heavily buffed and Heavy bolters DOUBLING their dmg output vs multi-wound targets. All of this has happened BEFORE most Xenos factions have had their own weapons adjusted to compete with these changes. How much dmg do you think the predator is going to do when it dies turn 1 from across the table to my Lascannon equivalent weapons or if I "Da Jump" a unit of Tankbustas that get 2 shots each at S8 and D6+2 and D6+4 dmg? I highly doubt you want my orkz running around with Melta rifle equivalents instead of their current weapons.

If you keep ramping up weapons dmg instead of making things more durable we are going to head back to 1st turn tablings and the game basically being decided by a single roll of the dice to see who shoots first.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 15:58:24


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Where am I complaining about xenos buffs? I am complainging that the space marine lascannon is just worse than the admech one and the DE variant for no legitimate reason. It's exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

It is in fact the main reason the predator is unplayable. If it had 4 DL equilvants - it would be worth considering.


You are, in a post about helping make the predator more competitive, asking for Anti-tank weapons to be heavily upgraded, raising average dmg from 3.5 per wound to 5. This on the heals of Imperial Melta weaponry getting heavily buffed and Heavy bolters DOUBLING their dmg output vs multi-wound targets. All of this has happened BEFORE most Xenos factions have had their own weapons adjusted to compete with these changes. How much dmg do you think the predator is going to do when it dies turn 1 from across the table to my Lascannon equivalent weapons or if I "Da Jump" a unit of Tankbustas that get 2 shots each at S8 and D6+2 and D6+4 dmg? I highly doubt you want my orkz running around with Melta rifle equivalents instead of their current weapons.

If you keep ramping up weapons dmg instead of making things more durable we are going to head back to 1st turn tablings and the game basically being decided by a single roll of the dice to see who shoots first.

Melta is all going to that damage profile. You are complaining about the release schedule of rules...totally valid. It stinks of "space marines should be worse" because you are defending an admech lascannon being better for the same cost as a marine lascannon.

The weapon has already been updated. Space marine lascannons were omitted from the stat increases of weapons for 9th edition armies. Literally - admech lascannons at d3+3 and space marine ones are d6. For I believe the exact same cost. I don't care how they fix it. They need to fix it though. Ork rockets don't really need an adjustment...they are already flat 3 damage. They should just pay less points for them. Totally fine with ork weapons having inferior stats and paying less for them. That is how orks should work.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 16:03:51


Post by: JNAProductions


So wait-Ad Mech have an identical unit with the exact same outside resources, that pays the same for its Dd3+3 lascannon as a Marine does for a Dd6 lascannon?

Huh. I didn’t know that. Or maybe they only have different units, with different profiles and different available buffs.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 16:18:08


Post by: evil_kiwi_60


I don’t think making the predator more lethal is the answer. Even if they do get the souped up las cannons, you’re just adding to the hyper lethal nature of the game. Plus that means units like devastators or havocs get the buff too.

We need to overhaul the durability of tanks. A heavy bolter wounds every tank on a 5+ and strips two wounds. That’s too much for one of the most common support weapons in the game. It only takes 3 unsaved heavy wounds to bracket most tanks in the game when in reality tanks shouldn’t fear those weapons at all. Once a tank starts to bracket, the value drops significantly. The movement goes to a crawl and you lose your accuracy. Either overhaul the wound system or start giving a damage value against vehicle/monsters and another damage value against everything else for weapons.

Other issues to help tanks could include playing on a larger board to make the increased movement matter. Bring back something like tank shock so that chaff units can’t block a multi ton armored vehicle by standing in front of it. Also stop letting vehicles get caught in close combat. Again there’s no reason a tank can’t just roll over a man sized object inform of or behind them. Even a marine is going to get run over. He might be alive and safe in the armor but he will get knocked down. Close assault against a tank sounds fun till you have to try it.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 16:27:32


Post by: Quasistellar


Simply more wounds and toughness on pretty much every tank in the game would be good at this point.

I'm pretty sure GW vastly overrated the value of letting tanks still shoot into combat and has priced them all too high based on this.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 16:36:24


Post by: Xenomancers


 JNAProductions wrote:
So wait-Ad Mech have an identical unit with the exact same outside resources, that pays the same for its Dd3+3 lascannon as a Marine does for a Dd6 lascannon?

Huh. I didn’t know that. Or maybe they only have different units, with different profiles and different available buffs.

The only insance of the admech lascannon is on the ironstrider belestarii I think.

75 points for 2 lascannons with d3+3. Can take 2 for 20 points less than a 4 las predator. with d6 las. They are also core.
You get 2 models +1 wound and only at the expense of -1 T. It is pretty clear there weapons have a similar cost. It is not acceptable. Should never have disparities like this in a game. Do you know how easy it is to not have these disparities?

They should just retroactively make all space marine LC d3+3. There is 0 excuse not to other than they fact people want space marines to be bad. Which is about 50% of players in this game and 90% of Dakka.

0 reason this should not be an instant hotfix.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 16:39:44


Post by: G00fySmiley


Quasistellar wrote:
Simply more wounds and toughness on pretty much every tank in the game would be good at this point.

I'm pretty sure GW vastly overrated the value of letting tanks still shoot into combat and has priced them all too high based on this.


vehicles do die pretty quick this edition, it interesting that instead of balancing things GW's response to making things deal too much damage was to add wounds and toughness to things rather than toning those down. Since they have started down this path i do think more wounds on vehicles and added toughenss is probably the best solution


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 16:43:40


Post by: Xenomancers


Also - want an example of a good tank? Look at the DG blight crawler or whatever it is called.

Cost 175.

T8 12 Wounds -1 damage and a 5++
has 2 d3+3 lascannons and a d6 flat 2 damage mortar...


Hard to believe this tank is roughly the same cost as a 4 laspredator.

Has more firepower
Vastly better defense
Move 1 less inch...

The designers in this game just suck. For this disparity to exist...it shows a complete lack of care for balance. Or a complete misunderstanding of what balance is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
Simply more wounds and toughness on pretty much every tank in the game would be good at this point.

I'm pretty sure GW vastly overrated the value of letting tanks still shoot into combat and has priced them all too high based on this.


vehicles do die pretty quick this edition, it interesting that instead of balancing things GW's response to making things deal too much damage was to add wounds and toughness to things rather than toning those down. Since they have started down this path i do think more wounds on vehicles and added toughenss is probably the best solution

Tanks have never had enough T since 8th ed. Now they need more wounds.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 17:15:39


Post by: Gadzilla666


 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I don’t think making the predator more lethal is the answer. Even if they do get the souped up las cannons, you’re just adding to the hyper lethal nature of the game. Plus that means units like devastators or havocs get the buff too.

We need to overhaul the durability of tanks. A heavy bolter wounds every tank on a 5+ and strips two wounds. That’s too much for one of the most common support weapons in the game. It only takes 3 unsaved heavy wounds to bracket most tanks in the game when in reality tanks shouldn’t fear those weapons at all. Once a tank starts to bracket, the value drops significantly. The movement goes to a crawl and you lose your accuracy. Either overhaul the wound system or start giving a damage value against vehicle/monsters and another damage value against everything else for weapons.

Other issues to help tanks could include playing on a larger board to make the increased movement matter. Bring back something like tank shock so that chaff units can’t block a multi ton armored vehicle by standing in front of it. Also stop letting vehicles get caught in close combat. Again there’s no reason a tank can’t just roll over a man sized object inform of or behind them. Even a marine is going to get run over. He might be alive and safe in the armor but he will get knocked down. Close assault against a tank sounds fun till you have to try it.

It takes 27 heavy bolter shots from a BS3 platform to bracket a Predator, 36 if it uses Smokescreen. I don't think they're a big problem for tanks, but giving tanks -1 damage similar to dreadnoughts would solve that problem, as would giving them 2+ saves. Agreed on Tank Shock needing a return.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 20:51:28


Post by: evil_kiwi_60


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

It takes 27 heavy bolter shots from a BS3 platform to bracket a Predator, 36 if it uses Smokescreen. I don't think they're a big problem for tanks, but giving tanks -1 damage similar to dreadnoughts would solve that problem, as would giving them 2+ saves. Agreed on Tank Shock needing a return.


So 9 heavy bolters and that’s in a vacuum. With stratagems, litanies, doctrines, and chapter specific doctrines it is way to easy to hurt a T8 3+ save vehicle. Granted dedicated AT weaponry does it even better but that just further drives the point that the lethality of the game is way too high. -1 damage would be good or a 2+ save as well. But as it is


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 20:55:29


Post by: Daedalus81


 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

It takes 27 heavy bolter shots from a BS3 platform to bracket a Predator, 36 if it uses Smokescreen. I don't think they're a big problem for tanks, but giving tanks -1 damage similar to dreadnoughts would solve that problem, as would giving them 2+ saves. Agreed on Tank Shock needing a return.


So 9 heavy bolters and that’s in a vacuum. With stratagems, litanies, doctrines, and chapter specific doctrines it is way to easy to hurt a T8 3+ save vehicle. Granted dedicated AT weaponry does it even better but that just further drives the point that the lethality of the game is way too high. -1 damage would be good or a 2+ save as well. But as it is


9 HBs to bracket - or 6 damage. You'd need a bunch more and HBs aren't that plentiful.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 21:11:27


Post by: Tycho


I still agree with the people talking about defensive buffs. I like the idea of Tank Shock returning, and I like the -1 to damage although I feel like that's somewhat over-blown in terms of utility. I was thinking about something like a POTMS specific to Predators that allows them to not degrade maybe?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/10 22:17:32


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:

Melta is all going to that damage profile. You are complaining about the release schedule of rules...totally valid. It stinks of "space marines should be worse" because you are defending an admech lascannon being better for the same cost as a marine lascannon.

The weapon has already been updated. Space marine lascannons were omitted from the stat increases of weapons for 9th edition armies. Literally - admech lascannons at d3+3 and space marine ones are d6. For I believe the exact same cost. I don't care how they fix it. They need to fix it though. Ork rockets don't really need an adjustment...they are already flat 3 damage. They should just pay less points for them. Totally fine with ork weapons having inferior stats and paying less for them. That is how orks should work.


I'm actually calling for Ad mech lascannons to be brought DOWN to space marine levels rather than SMs to be brought up to ad mech levels. The game is too lethal, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees with that.

But like I said, if you want 3+D3 lascannons than don't get upset when Rokkitz go to flat 4 dmg or they double their shots due to that and the Melta spam being a thing.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/11 01:14:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yes. The Predator, and basically vehicles and monsters in general, is incredibly weak. They don't stand up to incoming firepower anywhere near what they should. Increasing the lethality of guns only makes that worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:
space marine lascannons need to be equal to admech las cannons full stop.
Why? They're different guns. The AdMech keeps the good stuff for themselves.

Your axe to grind seems to be differences between Marines and AdMech weapons, and not with the obvious issues vehicles/monsters face in 9th.



Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/11 03:08:38


Post by: Eldenfirefly


D3+3 damage is great. I want lascannons to be changed to that too. Its not the problem of anti tank weapons being too strong. Rolling a 1 on damage for a lascannon is terrible feels bad moment.

Anti tank weapons should feel like anti tank weapons. The feature of a good anti tank weapon is that it has very few shots, but when it does hit and get through, the damage is big.

I am perfectly fine with a tank being destroyed by a few anti tank weapons concentrating on it. That is per design AND logic. It should be the most efficient and best option to use anti tank weapons like lascannons to destroy a tank and they should be good at it. Far better than the tank being destroyed by lots of bolter fire or many d2 damage anti-elite infantry guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe just boost a predator tank's wounds to 13 or 14 so that they will definitely need at least 3 good 3+d3 damage anti tank shots getting through to kill them.

And this also means if only 2 such weapon shots get through, you will need a lot more of other sorts of fire (bolter or otherwise) to plink away the last few wounds instead of just one or two wounds.

I would compare Redemptors Dreadnaughts to a Predator tank though. Seems like the Redemptor Dreadnaught gets to do everything well, can shoot awesome plus fight well too and yet is more tanky than a proper predator Tank. Why do we have something obviously superior in so many ways than a tank for similar points.

So either the predator tank and similar tanks need to be buffed, or reduced in points so that it is obviously at a lower tier compared to Redemptor Dreadnaughts and pointed appropriately too.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/11 18:59:25


Post by: SemperMortis


Eldenfirefly wrote:
D3+3 damage is great. I want lascannons to be changed to that too. Its not the problem of anti tank weapons being too strong. Rolling a 1 on damage for a lascannon is terrible feels bad moment.

Anti tank weapons should feel like anti tank weapons. The feature of a good anti tank weapon is that it has very few shots, but when it does hit and get through, the damage is big.

I am perfectly fine with a tank being destroyed by a few anti tank weapons concentrating on it. That is per design AND logic. It should be the most efficient and best option to use anti tank weapons like lascannons to destroy a tank and they should be good at it. Far better than the tank being destroyed by lots of bolter fire or many d2 damage anti-elite infantry guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe just boost a predator tank's wounds to 13 or 14 so that they will definitely need at least 3 good 3+d3 damage anti tank shots getting through to kill them.

And this also means if only 2 such weapon shots get through, you will need a lot more of other sorts of fire (bolter or otherwise) to plink away the last few wounds instead of just one or two wounds.

I would compare Redemptors Dreadnaughts to a Predator tank though. Seems like the Redemptor Dreadnaught gets to do everything well, can shoot awesome plus fight well too and yet is more tanky than a proper predator Tank. Why do we have something obviously superior in so many ways than a tank for similar points.

So either the predator tank and similar tanks need to be buffed, or reduced in points so that it is obviously at a lower tier compared to Redemptor Dreadnaughts and pointed appropriately too.


D3+3 ready?

A single Squad of Devestators cost 155pts. Turn 1 they get 3 lascannons at BS3 and 2 lascannons at BS2. That averages out to 3.6 hits. Against T8 and below that is 2.44 wounds, with -3AP means the average vehicle will get a 6+ save which results in 2.04 wounds going through which will inflict on average 10dmg in 1 shooting phase. No character buffs/auras just the dev squad alone. That is enough to bracket anything except a Superheavy. Its just 1dmg shy of killing a Predator.

So again, if you really want to buff all these weapons to ridiculous levels of dmg output than you don't get to complain when NOBODY brings vehicles or that your vehicles all die turn 1, or when Xenos get tuned up to imperial levels.


P.S. I am very much aware that those same Dev Marines do MORE dmg vs most vehicles with their Multi-Melta weapons, that isn't a defense of Lascannons, rather its an admission that Melta weapons need either a hefty price increase or a hefty nerf. And that means ALL melta, not merely MM's on devs/bikes/eradicators.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/11 20:04:53


Post by: Black Knight


Bright Lances and Dark Lances have always been slightly better than a lascannon, as they should be. This is coming from a Space Marine player too. They always had an extra ap, and since 3rd edition used to treat armor over 12 as 12, to represent superior technology. Lascannon had more range though ( 4ft vs 3ft ).

Admech im not too sure of as im not familiar with the lore too much. I may have to sit down and read every codex from them to get a better understanding of why they have D3+3 anti tank weapons, seems interesting.

I think Lascannon's are fine honestly, they still do the job, and Marine players like me are all enjoying heavy hellblasters, plasinceptors, eradicators, and melta/MM on alot of choices so its not like we need a buff. If anything it would further imbalance the game to buff the mighty lascannon.

Predator def needs help though, and like I said should cost around 130-150 points. Lets at least get it under a Plageburst Crawler in points cost, lol.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/12 06:25:18


Post by: warmaster21


 Black Knight wrote:
Bright Lances and Dark Lances have always been slightly better than a lascannon, as they should be. This is coming from a Space Marine player too. They always had an extra ap, and since 3rd edition used to treat armor over 12 as 12, to represent superior technology. Lascannon had more range though ( 4ft vs 3ft ).


lances were only better vs armor 14, even on 13, and worse on 12 or less. but then things got immunity to lances, monoliths, certain landraider hull varients... the units lances were intended to kill...


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/12 12:47:32


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:


D3+3 ready?

A single Squad of Devestators cost 155pts. Turn 1 they get 3 lascannons at BS3 and 2 lascannons at BS2. That averages out to 3.6 hits. Against T8 and below that is 2.44 wounds, with -3AP means the average vehicle will get a 6+ save which results in 2.04 wounds going through which will inflict on average 10dmg in 1 shooting phase. No character buffs/auras just the dev squad alone. That is enough to bracket anything except a Superheavy. Its just 1dmg shy of killing a Predator.

So again, if you really want to buff all these weapons to ridiculous levels of dmg output than you don't get to complain when NOBODY brings vehicles or that your vehicles all die turn 1, or when Xenos get tuned up to imperial levels.


P.S. I am very much aware that those same Dev Marines do MORE dmg vs most vehicles with their Multi-Melta weapons, that isn't a defense of Lascannons, rather its an admission that Melta weapons need either a hefty price increase or a hefty nerf. And that means ALL melta, not merely MM's on devs/bikes/eradicators.


Yea wishing for D3+3 LC will functionally kill MM again and Marines will have the greatest density of said damage type. Chickens definitely need a 10 point bump at least, but aside from those it is hard to pack them in as much.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/12 14:51:02


Post by: Irbis


Altima wrote:
I'm guessing by context that the original poster mean that, creatively Disney is running on fumes. Which makes sense, as they seem to have stopped doing anything original themselves and are just relying on existing IP's and nostalgia and not even properly capitalizing on those, just going through the motions on what they think will make them the most money and getting their hands on as many existing, successful IP's as money will let them.

Uh, what? Maybe 5 years ago that was kinda-sorta true, now? When they made Raya and the Last Dragon? Big Hero 6? Zootopia? Moana? Wreck-It Ralph? Half a dozen other minor, no less original movies? Wot? Nostalgia for what, exactly? In fact all of these movies attracted screeching they are too new, too fresh, and too diverse for it to be true

I also find Last Jedi whine really hilarious, as it was the most original SW movie since Empire Strikes Back (and probably the best, too, especially in art department) but since it dared to show realistic consequences of the war plus character development instead of usual pew pew bang bang solving everything it apparently is too original and creative for its own good

Ditto for GW, a company that made Lumineth, DoK and new Stormcast being creatively bankrupt is as dumb as the same claim applied to Disney and regardless of how we twist what the OP said, it deserves only one reply:




Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/12 15:15:43


Post by: Karol


 Irbis wrote:

I also find Last Jedi whine really hilarious, as it was the most original SW movie since Empire Strikes Back (and probably the best, too, especially in art department) but since it dared to show realistic consequences of the war plus character development instead of usual pew pew bang bang solving everything it apparently is too original and creative for its own good

That has to be some very interesting definition of creative and of consequences of war. The movie has horrible fights, like a sports school could make better looking fights. Had zero development for characters, and some characters like Finn or Rose Tico actually regressed in development. There were characters that story arcs made no sense, heroes that were a dislikable and some characters were intreduced in the middle of the last movie and piloted as if the movie watcher was suppose to like or care about them. The last trilogy was the first Star Wars movies I watched, after that my dad showed me the older movies, and the animated series. And after watching those, and later on the Mandalorian, I have no idea why the last trilogy was made and for whom it was suppose to be done. From what I understand the older fans didn't like it, and new watchers found the movie dull. My dad said he watched older star war stuff over and over again, I watched the new trilogy one time and I had enough of it.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/13 13:09:56


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:
 Irbis wrote:

I also find Last Jedi whine really hilarious, as it was the most original SW movie since Empire Strikes Back (and probably the best, too, especially in art department) but since it dared to show realistic consequences of the war plus character development instead of usual pew pew bang bang solving everything it apparently is too original and creative for its own good

That has to be some very interesting definition of creative and of consequences of war. The movie has horrible fights, like a sports school could make better looking fights. Had zero development for characters, and some characters like Finn or Rose Tico actually regressed in development. There were characters that story arcs made no sense, heroes that were a dislikable and some characters were intreduced in the middle of the last movie and piloted as if the movie watcher was suppose to like or care about them. The last trilogy was the first Star Wars movies I watched, after that my dad showed me the older movies, and the animated series. And after watching those, and later on the Mandalorian, I have no idea why the last trilogy was made and for whom it was suppose to be done. From what I understand the older fans didn't like it, and new watchers found the movie dull. My dad said he watched older star war stuff over and over again, I watched the new trilogy one time and I had enough of it.


Wow, today is starting off weird, I'm agreeing with Karol completely. The entire new trilogy was hot garbage. I've never been a HUGE star wars fan, but I've watched the original and prequal trilogy at least a few times (2-4 times each) the new movies? once each. I actually hated the first two movies so much that I didn't even want to see the 3rd movie, and went to see it in theaters because my friend owns the theater and gave my wife and I free tickets. What is weird is Rogue One is actually a REALLY good movie in comparison and i've watched that one two or three times. Honestly, I struggle to understand how anyone actually liked any of the new trilogy movies, the plot was nonsensical, they killed off fan favorite characters with no rhyme or reason and in some cases no backstory or impact. Case and point, Admiral Ackbar is killed off in Last Jedi and its barely even mentioned. They throw out canon on a whim to make a random "hero" character seem heroic and than immediately after they make a massive show out of this they retcon it IN THE MOVIE. Admiral Pink Hair, (apparently they needed an admiral to make into a hero....if only there was a famous admiral character in 4 or 5 movies they could have used to sacrifice to advance the plot line) Kamikazi's her ship into the Order's capital vessel at light speed which apparently means it destroys it...right. If only they had known that worked when they fought the deathstar. But its ok, because like 10 seconds later Finn says something ridiculous like "that was a 1 in a million chance" oh ok, totally makes sense than.

Anyway thanks for the chance to get drastically off topic about a terrible movie trilogy that should be and I believe is being retconned out of existence. And as far as Predator tanks are concerned. I still see no better argument than upgrading its defense while simultaneously downgrading the deadliness of weapons in the game.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 00:53:01


Post by: Jarms48



I also find Last Jedi whine really hilarious, as it was the most original SW movie since Empire Strikes Back (and probably the best, too, especially in art department) but since it dared to show realistic consequences of the war plus character development instead of usual pew pew bang bang solving everything it apparently is too original and creative for its own good


I actually liked the Last Jedi, the only complaints I had was Finn and Rose's side adventure. I think that could have been cut to save time, or improved. I also didn't really like the ship ramming scene, it just opens up too many questions in context with the universe. Why didn't they just do something like this with the Death Star? Why don't they weaponize it? Anything else is just a minor complaint, but I liked where they were going with the plot.

Back to the Predator though. I said previously that knocking off another 20 points would solve the issue. You can't really buff the Predator autocannon to match the Sisters one, as that's suppose to be a twin autocannon. Where as the Predator is stuck with one.

The Annihilator lascannons could probably go to D3+3 damage though, a vehicles lascannons should be able to draw more power from an engine/larger battery than a backpack.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 01:10:39


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


If we drop the Pred cost, what sort of ripple does that have to ALL the other battle tanks out there? The entire LR lineup to be fair, should cost about the same, if not way less than the Pred. If they drop the pred, might they also drop the cost of the Eldar vehicles, or the cost of SM Bikes? Do we really want to go back to the All Bike lists of 8th? What would that do to knights or Amigers, who pay a premium for that sort of firepower?

Finally, can we just stop clinging to the obviously replaced units of the olden days? Kriegs, Rough Riders, and now OldBoi Marine boats. Just do like Elsa and Let it go!


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 01:41:20


Post by: Arachnofiend


Even if you accept the premise that loyalist oldmarine stuff should be swept aside, the predator chassis is still relevant for Chaos (and now Sisters, who just got the same vehicle with a different gun).


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 03:49:02


Post by: Jarms48


If we drop the Pred cost, what sort of ripple does that have to ALL the other battle tanks out there? The entire LR lineup to be fair, should cost about the same, if not way less than the Pred. If they drop the pred, might they also drop the cost of the Eldar vehicles, or the cost of SM Bikes? Do we really want to go back to the All Bike lists of 8th? What would that do to knights or Amigers, who pay a premium for that sort of firepower?


Why? Why does anything need to change just because we have a 120 point Predator Destructor. The Onager Dunecrawler is 115 points with its Eradication beamer. A Thunderer is 120 points with its Demolisher cannon.

The issue is most vehicles are severely overcosted in terms of their firepower and/or durability. Nearly all the Guard vehicles, all the Tau vehicles (not the battlesuits, not sure about the aircraft either), most of the first-born vehicles either need buffs or their points reduced. The landraider 20 point cut was nice but didn't address the issues the landraider has.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 06:56:57


Post by: Blackie


I don't think they're overcosted, they just need a boost in terms of durability. Last thing I want is something like Mek Gunz, which are good only because they're cheap. Too bad they're costing more dollars than points though, so even if they're good they're not that common. I won't accept 120 ppm full las predator just like I hate 40ppm Smasha gunz.

Full kitted predators should be ok at 170-180 points, and their offensive ability is already pretty high. A ravager isn't more killy but it's considered pretty good. It's too easy to wreck a predator and that's the thing that should be addressed, by either increasing its durability or nerfing those units that work as an alternative to the tank for doing the same job.

I can't accept that a 3 man squad of eradicators is more durable than a tank, has higher firepower, and it's also cheaper. Make them 65ppm and/or remove their double tapping ability for starters.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 12:03:20


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Jarms48 wrote:
If we drop the Pred cost, what sort of ripple does that have to ALL the other battle tanks out there? The entire LR lineup to be fair, should cost about the same, if not way less than the Pred. If they drop the pred, might they also drop the cost of the Eldar vehicles, or the cost of SM Bikes? Do we really want to go back to the All Bike lists of 8th? What would that do to knights or Amigers, who pay a premium for that sort of firepower?


Why? Why does anything need to change just because we have a 120 point Predator Destructor. The Onager Dunecrawler is 115 points with its Eradication beamer. A Thunderer is 120 points with its Demolisher cannon.

The issue is most vehicles are severely overcosted in terms of their firepower and/or durability. Nearly all the Guard vehicles, all the Tau vehicles (not the battlesuits, not sure about the aircraft either), most of the first-born vehicles either need buffs or their points reduced. The landraider 20 point cut was nice but didn't address the issues the landraider has.


Because slap dash changes like this greatly upset the apple cart, and do more harm in the long run than they solve. What do we do with Dreadnaughts and Leviathans if tanks now cost the same as Dreads? Tanks are obsolete in 40k. Hardly anyone uses them. They bring lots of firepower, but can be easily shot off the table and for the cost it's better to just bring heavy elites or infantry.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 12:08:48


Post by: wuestenfux


Does GW want you to play your old and shelved Predators?
I have five of them and could play three of them as Baal variants.
I guess GW wants you to buy the shiny tanks released recently.
Predators are just corpses in the new codex.
Nevertheless they would fit into an army with old Tacticals which were revised to have 2 wounds recently.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 12:10:47


Post by: Gadzilla666


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Spoiler:
Jarms48 wrote:
If we drop the Pred cost, what sort of ripple does that have to ALL the other battle tanks out there? The entire LR lineup to be fair, should cost about the same, if not way less than the Pred. If they drop the pred, might they also drop the cost of the Eldar vehicles, or the cost of SM Bikes? Do we really want to go back to the All Bike lists of 8th? What would that do to knights or Amigers, who pay a premium for that sort of firepower?


Why? Why does anything need to change just because we have a 120 point Predator Destructor. The Onager Dunecrawler is 115 points with its Eradication beamer. A Thunderer is 120 points with its Demolisher cannon.

The issue is most vehicles are severely overcosted in terms of their firepower and/or durability. Nearly all the Guard vehicles, all the Tau vehicles (not the battlesuits, not sure about the aircraft either), most of the first-born vehicles either need buffs or their points reduced. The landraider 20 point cut was nice but didn't address the issues the landraider has.


Because slap dash changes like this greatly upset the apple cart, and do more harm in the long run than they solve. What do we do with Dreadnaughts and Leviathans if tanks now cost the same as Dreads? Tanks are obsolete in 40k. Hardly anyone uses them. They bring lots of firepower, but can be easily shot off the table and for the cost it's better to just bring heavy elites or infantry.

Jarms48 proposed dropping the price of Predators by 20 PPM. You play Custodes, right? Remind me, how much did those floating Not-a-Sicarans you guys have drop in the latest CA?


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/14 23:36:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 wuestenfux wrote:
I guess GW wants you to buy the shiny tanks released recently.
Whilst yes, they do, they're just as bad.

It's not a Predator problem. It's a vehicle/monster problem.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/15 00:19:27


Post by: Jarms48


 Blackie wrote:
I don't think they're overcosted, they just need a boost in terms of durability. Last thing I want is something like Mek Gunz, which are good only because they're cheap. Too bad they're costing more dollars than points though, so even if they're good they're not that common. I won't accept 120 ppm full las predator just like I hate 40ppm Smasha gunz.


A full las predator would be 150 points. Not sure where you're getting 120 for that. You have to pay for sponsons.


Make the Predator great again @ 2021/06/15 07:46:37


Post by: Blackie


Jarms48 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
I don't think they're overcosted, they just need a boost in terms of durability. Last thing I want is something like Mek Gunz, which are good only because they're cheap. Too bad they're costing more dollars than points though, so even if they're good they're not that common. I won't accept 120 ppm full las predator just like I hate 40ppm Smasha gunz.


A full las predator would be 150 points. Not sure where you're getting 120 for that. You have to pay for sponsons.


Full las I mean a predator with 4 lascannons. If you want just two take a razorback, which is just 120, it's not a waste of a heavy support slot, and has the same chassis.